From LISTSERV@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDUSat Dec 10 05:02:32 1994 Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 05:46:07 -0500 From: BITNET list server at ALBNYVM1 To: Allen Dick Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9411" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:06:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Keith S. Delaplane" Subject: buyers of venom Are there any companies still buying hymenopteran venom? We have some collectors in Georgia eager to freeze and sell wasps. Any addresses, phone numbers, etc.? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:56:47 NZST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Donovan Subject: buyers of venom -Reply Dear Keith, Do the wasp collectors in Georgia ever find parasitoids of wasps in nests? If so, I would like to import live stages as part of our biocontrol effort against the immigrant Vespula germanica and V. vulgaris. Could you send me the address of your Georgian collectors please. Thank you very much. Regards, Barry Donovan Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre, Gerald Street, Lincoln DonovanB@Crop.cri.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 06:47:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "WRRSCH::BELLR" Subject: glucose-fructose ratios in honey I am aware that the glucose:fructose ration of honey influences significantly the rate at which honey crystalizes. How is this ration determined. Is there a lab where samples can be sent for this determination. Can or do they use Infrared spectrophotometry for this? Any info would be appreciated. Ron Bell c/o Frederick Honey Company E-mail: bellr@wrair-emh1.army.mil CompuServe : 74732,1425 or via surface (snail) mail: Ron Bell 12168 Old Frederick Rd. Thurmont, MD 21788-2537 Thanks again!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:01:41 +0000 Reply-To: IBRA@cardiff.ac.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dr Pamela Munn Subject: no subject (file transmission) ==================================================== B-MAIL A monthly newsletter on issues and events in the bee world, provided by IBRA, the world information service for bee science and beekeeping. November 1994 ==================================================== Welcome again to B.mail. A brief note for those of you who are seeing this column for the first time. B.mail will announce meetings (mostly international or otherwise major ones) and new publications that are of interest to scientists and beekeepers, as well as reporting current events and discussing topics that are relevant at the moment. What B.mail is NOT is another bulletin board, for people to chat and air their views. It is simply a reference point, with sources of further information identified for those who want to know more. That's our statement of purpose: and don't worry, you won't see it here every month. RESISTANT VARROA? This edition looks at the issue of mite resistance to acaricides, especially varroa's reported resistance to fluvalinate. Those of you who follow only the English language literature might not be aware of the wealth of discussion on this issue, some informed and some, well, not so informed. The issue was first thoroughly aired in Italy, where after some years of varroa treatment with fluvalinate a decrease in efficacy was noted. (Some of the reports talk about treatment with, and resistance to, Apistan. Most of the treatment was with home- made remedies such as plywood strips soaked in an agricultural preparation of fluvalinate, and of course any resistance is to the chemical and not a product). The beekeeping press in Europe has discussed this issue a lot, with headlines ranging from the strident ('Resistances a l'Apistan? Danger!!') to the pensive ('Resistenza della varroa all'Apistan...ma siamo propio sicuri?'). Probably the first report in English on this is 'Possible presence of fluvalinate-resistant strains of varroa in northern Italy' by Norberto Milani in the publication 'New perspectives on varroa', fresh off the presses at IBRA (see below). Dr Milani tells me that he will be publishing a fuller research paper in English soon. GAINING NEW PERSPECTIVES In eastern Europe, the former Soviet-bloc countries, varroa has been a fact of beekeeping life for more than 25 years. The barriers which kept us from sharing in this experience have now gone, and we can learn from colleagues in that part of the world much more easily. With funding from a European Commission programme IBRA organized a specialist workshop on varroa research, involving about 40 scientists from countries in eastern and central Europe, the European Union and other parts of western Europe. The results of this workshop are now out. New perspectives on varroa will bring readers up to date with what's happening in European varroa research and beekeeping practice, with contributions from 18 countries. Four review papers look at interactions between varroa and pathogens, breeding honey bees tolerant of varroa, control methods actually and potentially in use, and the impact of this parasite on beekeeping. Twenty-five technical articles are organized into five sections: varroa biology, honey bee susceptibility, chemical control, other control methods, and the issues that varroa poses for beekeeping. There are also reports from discussion groups on current concerns and plans for future research. Many topics important for the future of varroa and beekeeping are under discussion in Europe. Breeding resistant bees, the role of secondary pathogens, non-chemical control, using plant oils and heat treatment against varroa; problems with fluvalinate resistance; developing new chemical controls - are all covered in this volume. SYMPOSIUM: 'WORLD TRADE IN BEES AND BEE PRODUCTS' There are at present exciting developments in the trade of bee products and bees. The concern of honey producers in some countries about cheap imports, the growth in international trade in live bees, and the effects of the recent Gatt round are matters of interest for beekeepers everywhere. To promote informed debate about these issues IBRA is organizing a symposium at the 34th international apicultural congress in Lausanne, Switzerland. 'World trade in bees and bee products' will take place as part of the congress programme, on Wednesday 16 August 1995. Invited speakers from all around the world will present up-to-date information and views on current and likely future patterns in international trade in honey, beeswax, other bee products and live bees. There will be the opportunity for contributed poster presentations. SIXTH IBRA CONFERENCE ON TROPICAL BEES: MANAGEMENT AND DIVERSITY 13-19 August 1996, San Jose Costa Rica The next conference in IBRA's series on bees and apiculture in tropical climates is being organized by IBRA and hosted by the Universidad Nacional Costa Rica. A range of interesting and topical themes is being selected for conference sessions, and the first announcement with these details will be available at the beginning of 1995. Contact: Sixth IBRA Conference on Tropical Bees, 18 North Road, Cardiff CF1 3DY, UK. MORE ON TROPICAL BEES AND BEEKEEPING The papers presented at the last IBRA conference on tropical apiculture (Trinidad and Tobago, 1992) are available in the conference proceedings. These contributions come from a wide range of backgrounds and are a valuable source of information on beekeeping in the tropical and subtropical regions of the world. There are sessions on honey bee management, Africanized honey bees, stingless bees, honey bees and the environment, the biology and behaviour of tropical bees, and bee parasites, pests and diseases. ONE MORE MEETING A meeting with a difference, a British institution in fact. The national honey show attracts entries from all over the UK, as well as Ireland and a few from further afield (like the Caribbean). Apart from the show and judging there is a sizeable trade exhibition and a lecture programme over the three days of the event. After a few peripatetic years the honey show has found a home in the new Kensington Town Hall in London, and a fixed date in late November (this year Thursday 24 - Saturday 26). If you're in the area at the time call in! THAT'S IT Send your news to us; we can't guarantee to use it, but it will help to keep this spot topical. (Our contacts are listed at the end of this newsletter). Andrew Matheson Director Return address: E.mail: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk Fax: (+44) 1222-665522 Telephone: (+44) 1222-372409 Snailmail: 18 North Road, Cardiff CF1 3DY, UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:08:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Fell Subject: Re: glucose-fructose ratios in honey Ron: Glucose/fructose ratios are not a very good indicator of potential granulation in honey; probably the best potential predictions of crystallization can be obtained from the glucose/water ratios. Check the chapter by Jonathan White in Eva Crane's book Honey. He also references a technique for determination of glucose levels in honey. Analysis procedures for the determination of glucose content are not difficult and it can be done using several different methods. If you need additional information please let me know. You can email me at the address below. Regards - Rick >I am aware that the glucose:fructose ration of honey influences significantly >the rate at which honey crystalizes. How is this ration determined. Is >there a lab where samples can be sent for this determination. Can or do >they use Infrared spectrophotometry for this? >Any info would be appreciated. > >Ron Bell >c/o Frederick Honey Company >E-mail: bellr@wrair-emh1.army.mil >CompuServe : 74732,1425 > >or via surface (snail) mail: > Ron Bell > 12168 Old Frederick Rd. > Thurmont, MD 21788-2537 > >Thanks again!! > Richard Fell e-mail: rfell@vt.edu Department of Entomology, Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24061 703-231-7207 Fax 703-231-9131 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:23:13 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Bee venom for sale ! On Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:06:12 EST "Keith S. Delaplane" asked ... > Are there any companies still buying hymenopteran venom? We have some > collectors in Georgia eager to freeze and sell wasps. Any addresses, > phone numbers, etc.? Thanks. Try the Sigma company in your area. They have some kind of bees and wasps in their catalog (Venoms ...). But the prices ... !? Sigma Chemical Company 3050 Spruce Street St. Louis, (MI) 63103 Tel: 314-771-5750 Fax: 314-771-5757 Hope this helps ! Jean-Marie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:32:15 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Retrieving stuff from IBRA I am interested in reading more regarding varroa resistance as discussed by IBRA (mentioned in yesterdterday's BEE-L Digest). Is this information available electronically? Can I get there from here? TIA! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:13:25 +0000 Reply-To: IBRA@cardiff.ac.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dr Pamela Munn Subject: Re: Retrieving stuff from IBRA In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Morris" at Nov 3, 94 07:32:15 am > I am interested in reading more regarding varroa resistance as discussed > by IBRA (mentioned in yesterdterday's BEE-L Digest). Is this > information available electronically? Can I get there from here? > TIA! Thanks for your interest Aaron. At this time we can only supply info on hard copy (books, journals etc.) though we are hoping to be able to make our abstracting journal, Apicultural Abstracts, available on disk at some stage. ************************************************************** * Dr Pamela Munn * * Editor of Bee World, Associate Editor of J. Apic. Res. * *============================================================* * E.mail : IBRA@Cardiff.AC.UK | Mail : IBRA * * Phone : (+44) 1222 372 409 | 18 North Road * * Fax : (+44) 1222 665 522 | Cardiff CF1 3DY * * | UK * *============================================================* * If your mail is for someone else in IBRA I will pass it on * ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:44:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Biological COntrol of Mites >From reading various messages on this list on the chemical control of varroa, it appears that we are headed into the same dilemma as with antibiotic control of human bacterial diseases - herd resistance. Also, the idea of using chemicals in hives producing food products (honey, pollen, propolis, royal jelly) for consumption seems "unholistic". Are there any research projects looking into biological controls of mites? Paul Cronshaw DC Hobby Beekeeper cronshaw@rain.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:31:38 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hugo Veerkamp Subject: Raising Wax Worms dear Jim G. Shoemaker, here are my waxmoth adventures: > For the past twenty years I have been trying to avoid > wax worms/moths. same here..! > Now I want to raise them under some type of controlled > system. My reason > for this proposed activity is for fish bait. Last year I got a phonecall from a guy who wanted to buy old frames, which he needed to raise wax moths to feed to his reptiles( they sell waxmoths in the reptile shop for lotsa money, so he had decided to raise them himself) Subsequently I just punched a few tiny holes for air in the lid of a huge glass pickles jar, and crumbled some old frames into the jar( the frames were already infested with waxmoth); After closing the jar I left it alone for a coupl'a weeks and presto: my own waxmoth farm, full of both larvae and adults; the only problem was how to take out a few without releasing the whole populatiuon to freedom .. I let it die out after a month or two( by then most of the waxframe was converted into a greyish dust on the bottom of the jar); I presume its easy to optimise circumstances a bit to obtain accelarated growth of waxmoth. best regards, Hugo Hugo Veerkamp #################################################################### | BEENET INTERNATIONAL | | E-mail : | mail : the Bee bbs | | Hugo.Veerkamp@f28.n2801.z2.fidonet.org| P.O. BOX 51008 | | ( or press reply button) | 1007EA AMSTERDAM | | | The Netherlands | | Beenet : 240:31/0 | modem: +31 20 6764105 | | Fidonet: 2:2801/28 | voice: +31 20 6715663 | #################################################################### > Anyone out there have any information/ideas/ > suggestions as to how this is > best done. > Any information will be appreciated. > Jim Shoemaker > 5160 S. Western > Brookline, MO 65619 > (417) 887 0225 > jshoemak@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 21:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Oldfather Subject: Re: "Beekeeper's Yellow Pages" Please include me in the Beekeeper's Yellow Pages: John W. Oldfather JWOLD@delphi.com 502-241-0967 h 502-587-4339 o 502-587-4865 f Hobby beekeeper, extracted honey primarily clover, 2000 lbs per year. How may I receive a copy of the "Yellow Pages" once compiled? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 16:02:51 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Johns Subject: looking for a good home For my honey extractor. All stainless steel, 24" high x 18" diameter. Holds 4 frames. Hand crank. Used one season. I live in Eastern Washington. Can deliver to Portland or Seattle area. If you want it, make me an offer I can't refuse. Bill Johns days: (509) 335-3665 evenings: 332-0831 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 19:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Oldfather Subject: Beekeepers Liability I have read Jerry Hayes' response to a question in his "Classroom" section of th e American Bee Journal. This is a disturbing possibility. I am interested in hearing from other hobbies t/commerical beekeepers. What precautions do you take with your product? Where e can honey be tested for contaminates? Is this a real problem? Thanks John O ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 08:10:23 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Biological COntrol of Mites On Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:44:00 -0800, Paul Cronshaw, D.C. wrote: >Are there any research projects looking into biological controls of mites? > >Paul Cronshaw DC >Hobby Beekeeper >cronshaw@rain.org Yes, as far as I know, the Research Institute for Beekeeping at Dol near Prague started a project of selecting honey bee lines resistent to Varroa. Those interested in details can ask the dirrector: Ing. Vladimir Vesely, CSc., Research Inst. for Beekeep., 252 66 Libcice n. Vlt., Czech Republic Phone: ..42(2)6857585-6 Fax: ..42(2)6857585 Best regars, Vladimir Ptacek (ptacek@sci.muni.cz) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:27:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dominic Anthony Borgialli Subject: new subscriber subscribe listname DominicBorgialli ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 09:19:45 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Raising Wax Worms We found it easy to raise wax moth larvae and without destroying combs. Here is the recipe that worked: 100ml honey 100ml glycerin 1200ml dry baby cereal (e.g., Gerber high protein) 30ml water Mix thoroughly, place in a wide mouth glass jar (e.g., gallon), and lay a mass of wax moth pupae on top of the mixture. Keep in a warm place (80F or 27C). After adults emerge, watch for egg mass production and fast-moving young larvae. Note the heat generated by their metabolism. Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Department of Biology Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2838 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-4724 * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:25:23 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: eisikovitz Subject: Wind directionality and honey bees Hi every body Im looking for every possible data on bees fligh against wind direction Lease let me know Dan Eisikowitch Tel Aviv university/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mick Youther Subject: To Bee or Not To Bee? I joined Bee-L because I planned to buy some equipment this winter and start keeping bees next spring. After following the discussions the past 3 mos. or so, I have started having seconds thoughts. I had never heard of varolla or tracheal mites before and it seems that the prescribed treatments leave something to be desired. It sounds like if the mites don't get your bees and the winter doesn't kill them, they may just all decide to leave one day anyway. I guess my question is: Can a person just have a hive or two, get a little honey, and keep his sanity without having to constantly restock the hives? Mick Youther in the beautiful Shawnee Hills of Southern Illinois ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:07:23 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Teri Rhan {FMO} Subject: Re: To Bee or Not To Bee? In-Reply-To: <9411091609.AA19607@mx1.cac.washington.edu> I've managed to maintain 2 hives now for 2 years, so far so good. They have mites and I've been using the standard treatments. This year I got 5 gallons of honey in the spring and 8 gallons in sept. I 'm still new at this and I don't know if this quantity of honey is good or bad but I'm happy with it. I checked my bees last weekend and the hives were still stocked with a similar quantity of bees that I saw this time last year. My hives are located in a residentual area in the middle of a big city. There are 2 more hives 1 block away belonging to another member of this list and we share equipment, suit, tasks etc. The most labor intensive part seems to be in the summer checking for swarms. Other than that, work is an assortment of 10-20 min tasks, several per week if that. Besides the advantage of having honey to use and give for holiday gifts, I've had a bumper crop of tomatoes and peppers these last 2 years and the leftover wax (cappings etc) was recently melted into chistmas ornaments from some molds I got at the bee supply place. If you want my vote, I'd say go for it. Teri On Wed, 9 Nov 1994, Mick Youther wrote: > I joined Bee-L because I planned to buy some equipment this winter > and start keeping bees next spring. After following the discussions > the past 3 mos. or so, I have started having seconds thoughts. I had > never heard of varolla or tracheal mites before and it seems that > the prescribed treatments leave something to be desired. It sounds like > if the mites don't get your bees and the winter doesn't kill them, they > may just all decide to leave one day anyway. > > I guess my question is: Can a person just have a hive or two, > get a little honey, and keep his sanity without having to constantly > restock the hives? > > Mick Youther > in the beautiful Shawnee Hills > of Southern Illinois > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 13:40:46 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Hough Subject: RE>To Bee or Not To Bee? Mick Youther recently wrote: >I joined Bee-L because I planned to buy some equipment this winter >and start keeping bees next spring. After following the discussions >the past 3 mos. or so, I have started having seconds thoughts. I had >never heard of varolla or tracheal mites before and it seems that >the prescribed treatments leave something to be desired. It sounds like >if the mites don't get your bees and the winter doesn't kill them, they >may just all decide to leave one day anyway. > > I guess my question is: Can a person just have a hive or two, >get a little honey, and keep his sanity without having to constantly >restock the hives? Mick - The quick answer to your final question is a resounding YES, ABSOLUTELY!!! We experience this challenge every year in the Beginning Beekeeping class that my club runs - How to educate folks about the more common pitfalls of beekeeping, without scaring them so much that they decide it isn't worth the effort. The truth of the matter is that all the beekeepers on BEE-L don't have enough time (or the inclination) to spend hours on the computer describing their wonderful experiences keeping bees (I would guess that most BEE-L folks probably have a closetful of great stories!). Instead, BEE-L tends to be a spot for us to discuss problems & ask questions. Therefor, by just watching BEE-L one gets a distorted view of "real beekeeping". Sure, there are varroa and tracheal mites, and yes, they can kill a colony, but there are ways around the problem that doesn't cancel out the joys of keeping your own colony or two. Do you drive a car??? Don't you know that a car can kill you??? But most of us drive cars anyhow, as the benefits outweigh the dangers (IMHO). I kind of view beekeeping in a similar light - the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Nothing in life is trouble-free, but that is what keeps things interesting! My standard suggestions to a new beekeeper: Read as much as you can about bees, join a local club, and hook up with an experienced beekeeper who can be your mentor. Taking a beekeeping class would be a good idea too! If you are still hesitant about starting your own colonies, hook up with an area beekeeper, and help them work their bees for a while. You'll probably know fairly quickly if this hobby is for you or not. But don't be bashful - there really are a lot of benefits from having your own bees, and it isn't as difficult to do as it might sound based solely on BEE-L traffic. Now, making a profit from your bees....... That is a whole different issue! (oops - don't want to scare you off - Beekeeping is not likely to be a huge drain on your financial resources. Sure, it takes a [small] bit of up-front cash to get started, but I think that most hobby beekeepers can have the hobby pay for itself.) Sincerely, Rick Hough, a hobby beekeeper from Massachusetts. rshough@tasc.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 14:46:57 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Clayton Subject: Network information of apitherapy A member of the local beekeepers organization called the other day with a request for information about apitherapy available via the network. I don't know of any and so am going to BEE-L to ask for assistance. Rather than fill up this group with correspondence, if any people have suggestions please mail to me, not BEE-L, and I will summarize the responses to post to BEE-L. Thanks. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David Clayton Internet: dclayton@uriacc.uri.edu Assistant Director, Academic Computing Univ. of RI; Kingston, RI 02881 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 07:29:18 AEST+1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Adrian Graham DENT (Rodent)" Organization: Monash University, Clayton Subject: Re: To Bee or Not To Bee? > I guess my question is: Can a person just have a hive or two, > get a little honey, and keep his sanity without having to constantly > restock the hives? Mick, it may sound like there are thousands of problems, every one insurmountable, but it is not always that bad. I have often had only one or two hives, and kept them for years without having to restock. I must admitt, I don't have any mite problems, so that might make a difference. As for the sanity refference, I don't think most beekeepers had a great deal in the first place. :-> Adrian. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 12:46:47 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: To Bee or Not To Bee? Adrian, >As for the sanity reference, I don't think most beekeepers had a >great deal in the first place. :-> Great reply, Adrian! I have watched beekeepers encounter insurmountable obstacles for several decades (e.g., DDT, parathion, mites), but I have never seen all of them "throw in the towel." Opening a colony during a honey flow is a special experience (but don't keep it open too long). I had a beekeeper visitor a few months ago from Kenya who wanted to see how we handled our colonies. I told her that was find and that we should meet at one on Wednesday. She asked, "In the daytime?" We drove to the bee yard and parked nearby. She asked, "Are you going to leave the car windows open?" We walked the short distance to the hives and then asked, "Are you going to open hives in short sleeves?" I opened several colonies and explained how we operate colonies. In one case I could show her the queen backing up and laying an egg in a cell. Her comment: "No wonder you people in this country spend so much time studying bees -- in our country we can only approach colonies at night!" the other Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Department of Biology Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2838 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-4724 * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 12:57:00 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Spear I'm sorry to ask this again, buuut ... could someone mail me the address of the listserver for bee-l? I have to unsubscribe and resubscribe (one more time!). Thanks very much, Richard ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 15:22:26 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Mick Youther Subject: No Subject In-Reply-To: note of 11/09/94 15:09 From: Mick Youther Listserv@ALBNYVM1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 13:58:40 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter McGovern Subject: Re: RE>To Bee or Not To Bee? >Mick Youther recently wrote: >>I joined Bee-L because I planned to buy some equipment this winter >>and start keeping bees next spring. >> I guess my question is: Can a person just have a hive or two, >>get a little honey, and keep his sanity without having to constantly >>restock the hives? > >Mick - The quick answer to your final question is a resounding >YES, ABSOLUTELY!!! >Sincerely, >Rick Hough, a hobby beekeeper from Massachusetts. >rshough@tasc.com > Hi Beepers, I'm in the exact same situation as Mick. I joined this group because my wife and I want to start keeping a hive or two of bees in the spring. Consequently, I have been particularly interested in this thread. Thanks, Mick, for asking the question. And thanks to all who answered it. Peter Peter McGovern - Personal Computer Specialist Portland Community College-Tektronix Onsite Program pmcg@teleport.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:12:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: To Bee or Not To Bee? Mick Youther, I sympathize with your disappointment but it is an experience shared by beekeepers everywhere after parasitic mites and Varroa in particular, have moved in. In our extension work we witness scores of beekeepers who up to that point kept bees for the pure enjoyment of it; a means to be closer to nature, to witness the interdependencies between honeybees and flowering plants, the smells, sounds and, to see how it all keeps in balance. I suppose many if not most beekeepers are naturalists with a deep seated sense of romanticism. But now suddenly, Varroa has come around and has shattered this tranquil image. The bees are so vulnerable to these parasites that without our help, there is little chance of survival. And indeed, there is no alternative but to use chemical controls. At meetings, beekeepers equate this whole mite issue as if this wonderful, noble pursuit of beekeeping has lost its innocence. For many, we have now entered an era where we deal with a livestock that requires a management approach similar to so many other agricultural commodities. As a result of these developments, we are witnessing great changes in the make up of the beekeeping community where Varroa has invaded. Many beekeepers especially older ones, will be discouraged by the sheer ferocity of the mites and exit the industry. Also, those who only had a mediocre approach to beekeeping and extracted the most out of the bees without good care in return, will disappear (fortunately). Mick, I am confident in the beekeepers' determination and tenacity to deal with parasitic mites successfully in the future. Since the mites are such formidable foes, only those producers truly committed in staying in beekeeping will succeed. Lets look at it positively in that mites will force beekeepers to become better and more knowledgable in the pursuit they love so much and that is, to keep bees! Paul van Westendorp PVANWESTEN@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 22:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mick Youther Subject: A thank you I would like to thank everyone who posted information and encouragement on and off the list. I'll probably be asking for more advice in the spring. Thanks, Mick Youther in the beautiful Shawnee Hills of Southern Illinois ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 23:09:32 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: RE>To Bee or Not To Bee? In-Reply-To: <9411092301.AA36667@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> > > I guess my question is: Can a person just have a hive or two, > >get a little honey, and keep his sanity without having to constantly > >restock the hives? I don't think so. Twenty some years ago, I caught a couple of swarms and put them in some borrowed brood chambers. I am now in the middle of wrapping 1,500 hives of bees for winter. BEEWARE! :) Allen Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 09:01:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was bos@VOEDING.TNO.NL From: "Wilhelm Bos, Microbiologie" Subject: signon signon bee-l ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:31:36 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Christiane Courant Subject: address o f the listserv bee-l To unscribe and subscribe, send an e-mail to LISTSERV@UACS2.ALBANY.EDU from Internet or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET from Bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 04:47:21 +22300129 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Re: address o f the listserv bee-l In-Reply-To: <199411100932.EAA30292@ipe.cc.vt.edu> from "Christiane Courant" at Nov 10, 94 10:31:36 am In E-Mail recently Christiane Courant wrote, > > To unscribe and subscribe, send an e-mail to > LISTSERV@UACS2.ALBANY.EDU from Internet or listserv@uacsc2.albany.edu Adam -- _________________________________________________________________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu | (awaiting my muse...) ___________________________________________|_____________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 07:45:48 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Val Hillers Organization: WSU Food Specialist Subject: Honey and infant botulism There is no risk of infant botulism from a pregnant women eating honey. Infant botulism results when an infant eats honey or some other food which contains Clostridium botulinum bacteria. The infant has a low stomach acidity and thus the C. botulinum cells can survive and grow in the intestinal tract, producing the botulism toxin. (Infants can also obtain the C. botulinum cells from dust in the house.) In adults, botulism is caused by eating a food which contains the toxin. In infants, the bacteria actually grow and produce the toxin in the intestine. Val Hillers Extension Food Specialist Washington State University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:54:35 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ADC Administor Subject: Subject: Swarms To: bee-l@uacsc2.albany.edu. (Bees Mail) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:54:35 +1000 (EST) From: "Steven Andrews" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1132 Hi everyone, Would someone share their thoughts with me about the following. Yesterday my KIND neighbour informed me that there were 2 swarms on her tree. They were big swarms at that. Having 4 hives of my own, I guess they originated from my hives. The larger of the two was on the tree for five days and the other 2 days. After carefully putting them in seperate bee boxes, and waited until night fall, I moved them back into my yard 5 feet away from the other hives. The next day I watched them busilly working, as if they were still on that tree. (ie. they did not go back to the tree.) I would've thought that 2, or atleast 5 days were suficient for them to imprint their hives' locality. Does this mean that they did not orientate themselves properly on the tree? or they found their new home more confortable/suitable? or something else perhaps. Any comments are appreciated. Best Regards, Steven. PS: The reason why she did not inform me of the swarms previously, is because where she comes from, Vietnam, they believe that when a swarm comes onto their property it's a sign of good luck. :-)) -- Steven Andrews Configuration Manager / Software Engineer Email Electronics 88-94 Cantebury Rd, Kilsyth, Victoria, 3137, AUSTRALIA. Tel : +61 3 728-7416 (Office) +61 3 728-1888 (Reception) E-mail : gemini@dev.ecs.oz.au or jules@dev.ecs.oz.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 00:24:14 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Veldhuis Subject: Re: Subject: Swarms In-Reply-To: <9411110104.AA00998@rigel.cc.umanitoba.ca> from "ADC Administor" at Nov 11, 94 08:54:35 am ADC Administor insightfully writes: > After carefully putting > them in seperate bee boxes, and waited until night fall, I moved them > back into my yard 5 feet away from the other hives. > > The next day I watched them busilly working, as if they were still > on that tree. (ie. they did not go back to the tree.) I would've thought > that 2, or atleast 5 days were suficient for them to imprint their > hives' locality. Normally, several hours is sufficient. Notice also that you didn't notice any drift back to the parent collony. Swarms are very sensitive to conditions of the colony. After all, they are "on the move" and so should be sensitive to changes in location. The swarms that hang in trees are only interim locations until a suitalbe cavity is found. When you hived the swarms, they located to the new location and started making a home. > Does this mean that they did not orientate themselves properly on the > tree? or they found their new home more confortable/suitable? or > something else perhaps. > -- ------------oooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo------------- Phil Veldhuis | "if something is not worth doing, Winnipeg. MB, Canada | it is not worth doing right" veldhui@cc.umanitoba.ca | Dave Barry (1985) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 07:34:52 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: Subject: Swarms In-Reply-To: <9411110102.AA33972@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, ADC Administor wrote: > Does this mean that they did not orientate themselves properly on the > tree? or they found their new home more confortable/suitable? or > something else perhaps. The rules that are commonly given for bees ability to locate their own nests and to navigate are useful oversimplifications, designed to keep beginners out of trouble. There is even debate about the bees use of dance language to communicate. Bees show considerable variability in their ability to deal with problems presented by moving of hives, nectar sources, and obstacles. Greenhouses are an interesting example, as are your observations of the swarms. We routinely present bees with problems that they probably seldom, if ever encountered in their long history before they encountered homo sapiens(?). There are also (inconclusive) comments on this subject in the logs for September and/or October (I believe) under the observation hive thread. If interested, send a message to LISTSERV@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU with only the command GET BEE-L LOG9409 in the body. Use 9410 for October, 9408 for August etc. You will receive a text file in your mail within a few hours that includes all discussion for the month in question. You can search it with your word processor for key words of interest, or just read the whole thing. Bees have complex navigation equipment and seem to operate in different 'modes' at different times. The behavior during an intense honey flow is very different in many ways from the behavior of bees disturbed in winter cluster. Swarming presents a special case too. > PS: The reason why she did not inform me of the swarms previously, is > because where she comes from, Vietnam, they believe that when a > swarm comes onto their property it's a sign of good luck. :-)) This is a belief that I wouldn't mind seeing adopted locally :) W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:01:58 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Subject: Swarms >On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, ADC Administor wrote: > >> Does this mean that they did not orientate themselves properly on the >> tree? or they found their new home more confortable/suitable? or >> something else perhaps. For further information, you might refer to my article of January 1992 in the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL (pp. 27-31). Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Department of Biology Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2838 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-4724 * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:22:21 GMT Reply-To: Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: address of the listserv bee-l Hi all, I've posted the listserv address several times in the past, and only a few days ago did I realise that people who want to subscribe can't see it if we post it to the list! It has to go directly to them. :-I Best regards, -- Gordon Scott Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk 100332,3310 on CompuServe Newsletter Beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ditto Beekeeper, Kendo Sandan, sometime sailor. Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG22 5HP, UK It's bad enough that life is a ratrace; but why do the rats always have to win? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 14:52:05 AEST+1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Adrian Graham DENT (Rodent)" Organization: Monash University, Clayton Subject: goodbye everybody, I've got to go.... Well, it has reached the end of the academic year for me, so I am losing my computer account (not straight away...but shortly) so I will be UNSUBscribing BEE-L shortly. I have enjoyed the discussions and information here. See you when I get a new account. Adrian (Dent....) Anyone who would like to stay in contact with me, my snail mail address is Adrian Dent 333 Normanby street Warragul Victoria 3820 Australia. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:31:33 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Malcolm Roe Subject: Strange sighting of drone. Yesterday I took a walk to my hives just to check everything was OK. All winter preparations were completed some time ago. It was about 3pm and a few bees were flying. Then I saw a drone entering one of the hives. There was no doubt. It had some trouble getting through the mouse guard so I had plenty of time to look at it. Is this unusual or have I just never noticed it before? Around here the expulsion of the drones is usually in August. Sometimes a few hang on till early September. The only unusual thing I can think of is that it's been warmer than normal for the time of year. We've only had one frost so far and that was in early October. -- Malcolm Roe Phone : +44 1442 345104 Crosfield Electronics Ltd Fax : +44 1442 232301 Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK E-mail : roe@crosfield.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:32:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Lackey Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. I also saw a couple drones in hives this last weekend when checking up on things with the good weather. We haven't had a frost yet either. Those guys are hanging on this year!! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Raymond J. Lackey + + Beekeeper 10 years with 25 colonies on Long Island, NY+ + INTERNET: rjl7317@hazeltine.com + + Mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia NY 11617 + + Home Phone: 516-567-1936 FAX: 516-262-8053 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:27:10 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jane Beckman Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. Well, here in California (SF Bay Area) I've been fascinated by the drones flying at my hive. I have *never* had late drones before, but a whole new batch has shown up within the last month. I know Adrien has talked about channel island bees reproducing/swarming all through the year, but that's a milder climate. We're getting some very cold nights, but the drones are out in abundance! Jane B. [jane@swdc.stratus.com] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 14:23:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. In-Reply-To: <9411142104.AA45870@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> Up here in the great white north (Alberta) it is not unusual to see drones on the floor even now. It is an indicator of how prosperous the bees are, I'm told. Our hives are weighing up to 75 kg for two broods plus floor and lid. Average is around 60 kg. W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:03:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wayne Rumball Organization: Wild Bee's BBS (209)826-8107 Subject: glucose-fructose ratios i On 11-02-94 BELLR@WRAIR-EMH1.ARMY.MIL wrote to ALL... > I am aware that the glucose:fructose ration of honey influences > significantly > the rate at which honey crystalizes. How is this ration determined. > Is > there a lab where samples can be sent for this determination. Can or > do > they use Infrared spectrophotometry for this? > Any info would be appreciated. > The F/G ratio is determined by the floral source of the honey. Tupelo honey from Florida has a high fructose content and can take years to crystallize. Canadian Rapeseed, or CANOLA honey has a very low fructose content and will crystallize within days of being extracted. I believe most labs use an HPLC method for testing sugars. One in the US that might do this for you is ACSC tel 800-842-2272/410-730-7782. I don't know the cost. Wayne Rumball International Honey Exporters Organisation ODEM International Inc Montreal, Canada --- * OFFLINE 1.58 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:15:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wayne Rumball Organization: Wild Bee's BBS (209)826-8107 Subject: Re: glucose-fructose rati On 11-02-94 RFELL@VT.EDU wrote to ALL... R > Ron: R > Glucose/fructose ratios are not a very good indicator of potential R > granulation in honey; probably the best potential predictions of R > crystallization can be obtained from the glucose/water ratios. Check R > the R > chapter by Jonathan White in Eva Crane's book Honey. He also R > references a R > technique for determination of glucose levels in honey. Analysis R > procedures R > for the determination of glucose content are not difficult and it can R > be R > done using several different methods. If you need additional R > information R > please let me know. You can email me at the address below. Regards - R > Rick R > Well maybe. Certainly honey with 25% moisture is more likely to stay liquid longer that honey with 16% moisture. But it will probably ferment pretty fast too. Water should remain a constant in the equation, not be a factor. It is a fact that certain honeys, regardless of the moisture content remain liquid for months or years on end, while other, regardless of the moisture content, will crystallize in a few days. Wayne Rumball IHEO/ODEM --- * OFFLINE 1.58 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:06:04 EST5EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cameron Skinner Organization: McGill University - Chemistry Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. Here is a strange one for you to contemplate. I recently finished winterizing my bees for the coming winter and as I going through my two hives one last time I noted the absence of the drones. However, I just moved a friends' two hives back to my place for the winter, and as I was packaging them up for the winter the day after the move I found to my surprise a large number of drones in the hive. The strange thing is that the next day these two hives were busy evicting the VERY unhappy drones and not allowing them back into the hives. Originally these two hives were situated about five or six miles from my place. Cameron Skinner ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// / Cameron Skinner Skinner@omc.lan.McGill.ca / / McGill University / / Room 221 Otto Mass Chemistry Bldg. / / 801 Sherbrooke St. West / / Montreal, Quebec, Canada / / H3A-2K6 / / Tel. 514-398-6231 / ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:33:50 +0100 Reply-To: fmonaci@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: fabio monaci Subject: Re: Subject: Swarms In message Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:01:58 PST, Adrian Wenner writes: > >>On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, ADC Administor wrote: >> >> >>> Does this mean that they did not orientate themselves properly on the >>> tree? or they found their new home more confortable/suitable? or >>> something else perhaps. >>> > > > For further information, you might refer to my article of January 1992 > in the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL (pp. 27-31). > > Adrian > > *************************************************************** > * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * > * Department of Biology Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * > * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2838 * > * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-4724 * > *************************************************************** sorry not everyone can get archives of A.B.journal Fabio Monaci C.N.R. Centro studio Genesi Classificazione Cartografia del Suolo P.zle delle Cascine 15 I-50144 Firenze Tel. ++ 39 (0)55 360517 Telefax ++ 39 (0)55 321148 E-MAIL fmonaci@csgccs.fi.cnr.it ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 00:43:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: SLCSQUARED@DELPHI.COM Subject: remote backup software free report Dear Friend, Since you are someone who reads E-Mail, I thought you might be interested in getting a free copy of an unusual report. This report, entitled " Remote Backup Services ", describes a revolutionary new data service you could offer to businesses in your community. Did you know that anyone with a PC, a modem,and a telephone line could perform off-site data backups for local businesses? Recent advances in high-speed modems now make this a profitable venture. This service can generate thousands of dollars, per phone line, per month ( while the RBS operator is at home, asleep ). It can even run unattended, for days or weeks at a time. There's more to explain. So we've set up a 24-hour automated Info/Faxback Hotline. (For best results, call from your fax machine or a phone connected to your fax/modem, and be ready to receive faxes. The number is : ( 714 ) 495 - 7949 Select Report # 01 . Best Regards, S. Conroy Golden Lantern Data P.S. By the way, there is no obligation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:20:42 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sojn X. Trinh" Subject: Re: remote backup software free report In-Reply-To: <199411150555.VAA09046@franc.ucdavis.edu> This just gotta be a joke.. right?? and i thought April's Fool has passed. -ST ,,, (o o) -------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo----------------------------- | Disclaimer: | Son Trinh **sxtrinh@ucdavis.edu** | | The Person Who Operates | Dept. of Entomology | | This Account May | Davis, Ca 95161 | | STING | (916) 757-7693 (H); 752-0333 (Lab)| -------------------------------------------------------------------- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | To Bee or Not To Bee | | THAT | | Is The Question | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 12:46:11 -0800 Reply-To: "Ken Umbach (kumbach@library.ca.gov)" Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ken Umbach (kumbach@library.ca.gov)" Subject: Re: commercial posting by Delphi member (fwd) Sorry to clutter with this, but I thought other folks would like to know that Delphi does respond when notified of misuse of internet access for commercial purposes. (I received the original commercial posting on two lists, and have no idea how many other lists received it.) Ken Umbach ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:11:05 -0500 (EST) From: Delphi Internet Services To: kumbach@agency.resource.ca.gov Subject: Re: commercial posting by Delphi member Thank you very much for bringing this mass mailing to our attention. As you are obviously aware, this type of mailing is highly frowned upon by the internet community as well as Delphi and we have taken the necessary steps to ensure that this will not happen again on that account. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you and ask you to please accept our apologies for this type of behavior from one of our members. Kevin Plankey Delphi Member Services Manager ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:37:45 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ADC Administor Subject: Subject: Re: Swarms To: bee-l@uacsc2.albany.edu. (Bees Mail) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:37:43 +1000 (EST) From: "Steven Andrews" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 211 Thanks to everyone who replied to my enquiry about the swarms I gathered. It has open a new chapter in my understanding of bee swarming (bee)haviour :-) Till the next time, Happy beekeeping Regards, Steven -- Steven Andrews Configuration Manager / Software Engineer Email Electronics 88-94 Cantebury Rd, Kilsyth, Victoria, 3137, AUSTRALIA. Tel : +61 3 728-7416 (Office) +61 3 728-1888 (Reception) E-mail : gemini@dev.ecs.oz.au or jules@dev.ecs.oz.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:04:43 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sharon Collman Organization: WSU CAHE USER Subject: Africanized Honey Bee Following up on the thread on the Africanized Honey Bee comments: I was just working on the stacks of backlog and came across an excellent article by Wallace White in The New Yorker, September 16, 1991 on same: The Bees from Rio Claro. Also, some years ago, Ann Lovejoy also did an excellent and extensive article in The Weekly, a Seattle Newspaper. I would have to check my files and it is a devil to copy, but do-able if needed. Also I did unearth the Africanized Honey Bee press packet and have forwarded it to those who requested it (Still have one or two send off) but if I missed you, let me know. I made some extra copies. SHARON J. COLLMAN W.S.U. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION URBAN IPM RESOURCE CENTER @ CENTER FOR URBAN HORTICULTURE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON GF-15 SEATTLE, WA 98195 PHONE: 206-543-8616 E-MAIL COLLMANS@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:54:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. Cameron, the third colony you brought in with the drones that are now being evicted, are you sure you don't have a drone layer in it? A colony that harbors a large drone population in late season or fall, would cause me to think that something is not right and it is not likely to make it through the winter (especially not through an eastern Canadian winter). Good luck, Paul van Westendorp PVANWESTEN@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiculturist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 00:02:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Central Postmaster Subject: Mail Delivery Status ***** Error in Mail Delivery ***** SNADS INVALID RECIPIENT Recipients: ROH033.MAH48D@CDCMVS1.ROHMHAAS.COM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:20:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: November issue of APIS Distributed to: USR:[MTS]INTERNET.DIS;35, mts FILENAME: NOVAPIS.94 Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) Volume 12, Number 11, November 1994 AHB IN CALIFORNIA The African honey bee (AHB) has finally been found in California. The first detection of the migratory front was made 20 miles west of Blythe, in Riverside County. The feral swarm was detected at the Chuckwalla Valley State Prison on a 3-inch pipe on October 24. The prison fire department destroyed the swarm and collected the sample that was later identified by the California Department of Food and Agriculture laboratory as Africanized and confirmed on October 28, by the Agricultural Research Service Bee Laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland. WHEN BUGS FIGHT BACK The 1993 winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Explanatory Journalism is Mike Toner of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. A compendium of his articles has been published under the title "When Bugs Fight Back." This publication is available by contacting the newspaper's automatic marketing service, ph 404/222-88991. It is must reading for anyone interested in agriculture or public health at almost any level. As Mr. Toner says in his introduction, "the bugs are fighting back and they are getting very good at it." This is strong stuff and Mr. Toner's articles, published between August and April, 1992 give us pause for reflection: "Like the villains in a late-night horror show, resistant strains of mankind's oldest enemies are finding ways to sabotage our most sophisticated technology. And even the malevolent microbes of 'The Andromeda Strain' or the angry hordes of 'Killer Bees' aren't as scary as the 'superbugs' that are now emerging throughout the world." Tuberculosis, malaria, pneumonia, and practically every other human infection is now resistant to at least one class of antibiotics, according to Mr. Toner. With reference to insects and weeds, the prognosis is no better. At least 17 'super-insects' are resistant to almost every pesticide. One, the Colorado Potato beetle, can now be killed only using a tractor-pulled blow torch. And in the United Kingdom and Australia farmers are encountering 'mega-weeds' which may threaten the world's wheat supply. Chemicals have been subverted, Mr. Toner says, unwittingly aided by industries that market them, 'experts' who overuse them, and ordinary people who see them as a promise, for a time, to change the course of evolution. As Dr. Robert Metcalf, University of Illinois concludes: "The problem is not chemicals; it's the irresponsible way they are used. Our shortsighted and irresponsible use of antibiotics and pesticides is producing strains of monster bugs resistant to nearly everything in our arsenal. The outlook is dismal. And it is getting worse." Beekeeping, like the rest of agriculture, is increasingly reliant on chemicals. Does this mean there is potential for 'superbugs' to develop? Several potentially devastating problems now under chemical control are candidates. For decades, beekeepers have used and continue to employ the antibiotic, oxytetracycline, as a "preventative" to control American Foulbrood (AFB). It has worked amazingly well; how long it will continue to do so is not known. Evidence from extended use of antibiotics in humans, however, is not encouraging. Fortunately, for most persons, antibiotics still work, but for some infections, according to Dr. Fred Tenover at the Center for Disease Control, we are close to the end of the road. As quoted by Mr. Toner, he concludes, "The worst-case scenario is almost here. We are very, very close to having bacteria resistant to every significant antibiotic ever developed. Only this time, there are no new drugs coming down the pike." Physicians can make mistakes in prescribing antibiotics, and many are simply inappropriate for certain conditions, including simple colds and diarrhea, and viral infections. In these cases, not only don't they work, but this use magnifies the possibility of developing resistant bacteria. Another major don't on a list published by the Alliance for the Prudent Use of Antibiotics, quoted in Mr. Toner's work is: "Don't take an antibiotic to prevent a disease you think you have been exposed to. It not only alters the body's normal population of harmless bacteria, but increases your chance of getting a resistant infection." This last don't is of course what every beekeeper using Terramycin (R) for AFB control does. Unfortunately, it has worked for decades, although there is disturbing evidence from an Argentinean visitor to this department some time ago that AFB in that country has shown resistance to Terramycin (R) in certain areas. I say "unfortunately" because that means that resistance has not shown up in the U.S. in spite of decades of treatments by thousands of beekeepers. Although this is good news if one wants to control the disease, it leads to the belief that this antibiotic is a proverbial "magic bullet" for AFB control. And if this is so, there must be other bullets in our gunslinger's belt which are just as effective for other diseases and pests. With the introduction of the honey bee tracheal mite (HBTM) and then Varroa, the search for magical cure alls, like that now perceived for AFB, have continued. There appears to be innate resistance against HBTM in certain bee populations; in many areas, it seems that colonies susceptible to this parasite were quickly killed off. Nevertheless, menthol continues to be used as a chemical control in many situations and there is evidence that vegetable oil patties are also helpful. Varroa is another story. Before this mite was introduced into the U.S., well over 140 different chemicals had been used worldwide to control this parasite. Most didn't work. And only in 1987, when the U.S. was finally infested, was a technology found to effectively kill large numbers of mites and not affect the bees at the same time. This, of course, is the chemical fluvalinate, a synthetic pyrethroid first delivered on wooden strips, then labeled as formulated in the product called Apistan (R). The beekeeping industry could at that time breathe a sigh of relief; a parasite for which the western honey bee (Apis mellifera) has little resistance was now under control. But for how long? Already there is evidence that widespread use (or misuse?) of fluvalinate in Europe may have created resistant mites. Although there may be other chemicals on the horizon (e.g. formic acid), there is no substitute for wise use of one that is already labeled, legal and effective. Thus, as Mr. Toner suggests: "Whether you're farming the lower 40 or a small garden plot in the back yard, there are things you can do to keep the pests at bay-- and to slow the emergence of resistance:" Use pesticides sparingly. When you apply pesticide, do so only when there is a problem, not before. (Use the ether roll test, smoke, uncapping brood and washing adults to detect Varroa mites.) Rotate chemicals. If possible, alternate at least two different classes of compounds--organophosphates, pyrethroids, carbamates or biologicals. [This is not legally possible in the U.S.; in Canada, Apistan (R) can be rotated with formic acid]. Once resistant mites are detected, however, this may not be the best approach. Avoid persistent pesticides. You run the risk of encouraging resistance even after the problem is gone. [This is potentially the most pernicious problem of all when using fluvalinate. It accumulates over time in wax comb, making the beehive itself a continuous possible source of the chemical, encouraging resistance to develop in mite populations.] Set up untreated area. Consider providing an untreated area--a refuge of sorts--to preserve a stock of susceptible insects to dilute the effect of resistant genes. [This might be untreated colonies in nearby yards. However, this philosophy runs counter to opinion in the regulatory community that all nearby colonies should be treated to avoid one of the biggest problems posed by Varroa, reinfestation.] This last is perhaps one of the most interesting new twists developed by Mr. Toner. Providing a "safe haven" for pests, he says, is not a joke. In this way, resistant populations might be diluted by individuals that are not resistant, providing overall better kill rates. This would be, he concludes, something that would have been "anathema" a few years back. The kill'em all philosophy is a throwback to the time when eradication was the philosophy of choice. But there has been a paradigm shift in pest control. As Dr. Metcalf states, concluding the series "When Bugs Fight Back": "When you try to eradicate an insect, you are going up against a billion years of evolution. Pests have survived that long because they are very good at adapting. We will probably never completely eradicate any pest. We shouldn't be trying. We should be looking for a way to live with them better." MORE ON SMALL BUSINESS FOOD LABELLING It was too good to be true. I said in the October, 1994 APIS that nutritional labeling was automatic without notification of either the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) or Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. Unfortunately, I was misinformed on this issue. Any business requesting exemption must submit the following information to the FDA: 1. Name and address of business. 2. Name of food product for which exemption is claimed. 3. Average number of full-time equivalent employees from May 8, 1993 to May 7, 1994. 4. Approximate total number of units sold in the U.S. between May 8, 1993 and May 7, 1994. 5. Signature of responsible party; also stating that the person signing will notify the Office of Food Labeling when the product no longer qualifies for exemption. Send the above to Office of Food Labeling (HSF-150), Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, Food and Drug Administration, 200 C St. SW, Washington, DC 20204. Questions about this should be directed to Jerad McCowin, special assistant to the director, ph. 202/205-5229. NOTES FROM A TRIP TO THE BRITISH ISLES James Bach, Washington state apiarist, recently reported on a trip to the British Isles. It was published in the last edition of the Apiary Inspectors of America Newsletter. Honey Bee Tracheal Mites (HBTM) 1. New Zealand bees are reported to be more susceptible to HBTM during seasons of poor weather; losses of up to 30 percent are seen. The stock is perceived to build up too fast in Spring and has small winter clusters. 2. Local strains are thought to be resistant to HBTM, but losses of 33 percent are still reported. There is no sampling for mites and no treatments given. Colonies are allowed to die; crawling bee symptoms are considered to be due to HBTM. 3. Fifty percent losses in N. Ireland are thought to be from HBTM, complicated by lack of pollen and a long, cold Spring. Beekeepers prefer local queens; few are imported. Both commercial and non- commercial beekeepers let the bees raise their own queens. Viruses 1. The impact of viruses on bee behavior is not known. Viral surveys of healthy colonies have not been undertaken. Whether the quality of honey bee nutrition has any effect on viruses is unknown. 2. Chronic Paralysis Virus has been known to multiply coincident with HBTM; both organisms prosper under the same conditions. Kashmir bee virus is thought to be the most virulent virus in honey bees. 3. Cell-cleaning bees are nurseries for developing sacbrood virus (SBV). It multiplies in their head (mandibular gland?) Infected bees forage earlier and are primarily nectar gatherers. Nurse bees with SBV quit feeding larvae earlier. 4. Viruses appear to spread when bees remain in the hive for longer than 24-hour periods. Crowded beehives are also conducive to viral spread. Economics 1. One commercial beekeeper was only breaking even; net profit came from bee-related commodities like tinctures, salves and specialty honeys. 2. Honey prices are soft because of imported honey from China. European beekeepers are actively demonstrating at European Community headquarters to gain support for their interests. Sincerely, Malcolm T. Sanford Bldg 970, Box 110620 University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Phone (904) 392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX: 904-392-0190 BITNET Address: MTS@IFASGNV; INTERNET Address: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU APIS on the World Wide Web-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:7999/~entweb/apis/apis.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:06:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. Although the fall (with some hives even after a few days of bad weather in summer) eviction of drones is sometimes a dramatic event, the timing and thouroughness of it varies. In the fall here, when hives are grouped for feeding and bear protection, in yards of 200 or so, it's quite noticeable that some hives trigger earlier than others (yellow ones earlier, or is it later?). (Something like the variable tolerance of 2 queens in a colony.) I don't know if anyone has separated the possible genetic influence, from the "forage conditions" effect. Either one could explain the observation Cameron noticed. As Paul vW noted, queen problems also result in drones being retained through winter. In late winter, however (early April here) there are sometimes quite a few drones in "medium" sized, healthy colonies which are rearing just a frame or two of worker brood (very unlikely that they have reared the drones since winter). I suppose I couldn't rule out the possibility that the drones wintered in queenless colonies, then drifted to stronger ones....). Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA For latitude watchers, this week is the first of the season, that I get to watch the sun rise after getting to work (8:30) (to make up for summer's midnight twilight). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:50:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: Wild Bee's BBS (209)826-8107 Subject: Re: Strange drones. To: BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Strange drones. Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. Although the fall (with some hives even after a few days of bad weather in summer) eviction of drones is sometimes a dramatic event, the timing In late winter, however (early April here) there are sometimes quite a few drones in "medium" sized, healthy colonies which are rearing just a frame or two of worker brood (very unlikely that they have reared the drones since winter). I suppose I couldn't rule out the possibility that the drones wintered in queenless colonies, then drifted to stronger ones....). Hello Kerry, You got that right, drones are extreme drifters. I did some practical work restricting drone flight for weeks in the spring. When the drones were allowed free flight...hundreds of thousands took wing blacking the sky and with a mighty roar of flapping wings...a sight and sound you would have to see to believe.. Few of these fellows ever returned to the apiary. I have often wondered if some poor beekeeper up wind had a yard starve out because of the unexpected guests who showed up for dinner, or if these guys just flew on and on until they ran out of fuel.. Anyway there is one thing that drones have done for us here in the states besides their duty, and thats equally spread the varroa mite to all our bees, and most likely have been spreading other pests and diseases since day one, but little can I find on this in the literature, but I have yet to read it all. There is a difference between different strains of bees as far as drifting, the darker seem to drift less, but again I don't recall anything in the literature on any difference between drones. One thing that is for certain the hives that produce the drones are not necessarily the ones' that will house them. Drones may be deficient in eye sight, but they are great at finding the hives with the stinky queens. Over the years I have had many different styles of drones thanks to some breeders from daughters of UC Davis queens. Different eye colors and the like, but once I did find a hive that produced drones with no hair at all. They were interesting to look at so I sent a few around for others to play with, learned how hard it is to ship them, lazy guys won't feed themselves, and if shipped with workers, after a day or so the workers won't feed them under stress or maybe without hair they could not regulate their body temp. or something. __ __ ttul Andy- / \ / \ \ \ / / \^+^/ \ \ / \|/ (O O)=|Wild Bees @ @ \_/ \_BBS_ / `-->@beenet.com ------------------oOO-(_)-OOo--------Y-------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 21:57:44 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau <73642.244@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Varroa resistance in Italy In the October issue of L'Abeille de France, Jean-Paul Faucon, renowned french bee pathologist signs an article confirming the resistance of varroa to Apistan in several provinces of Italy. The situation seems quite severe. 50% losses were reported in Piemont last spring. Important losses also occurred in Ligurie. Doctor Max Watkins from Sandoz (in charge of the research department in London) was to bring some precisions at the Xth National Convention of the French Beekeeping to be held on Oct 15th. Does anybody knows what the recent developpments are? I read with interest the the last issue of Apis. The possible "revenge" of bugs and microorganisms we fight from our colonies is a big concern for me. I think the TM approach of the AFB problem that prevails in north America is a dangerous. I am convinced that it is possible to operate large commercial operation without TM. I operate a commercial apiary (550 hives and 1400 mating nucs) since 1977 and I have never used the drug. Yearly inspection of all the colonies, replacement of the combs every 4-6 years has been sufficient to keep a good control of the situation. I also had to destroy or shake colonies occasionnally, but very few. Less that one per year on average. TM is dangerous since it only hides problems or potential problems. Unfortunately, for most beekeepers who have been using TM for years, it is very difficult to stop using it. '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ' JEAN-PIERRE CHAPLEAU eleveur de reines/bee breeder ' ' Chapleau & Courtemanche enr. ' ' 1282, rang 8, St-Adrien, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 ' ' 73642.244@compuserve.com tel./phone (819) 828-3396 ' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 20:20:11 ES Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jeffrey Young Subject: FLA Beekeepers...Yankee visiting from MA I am visiting friends in Stuart FLA and would like to hear from any local beekeepers, with a backyard hive or two, that would be interested in showing me their hive and get a look at their bees. If you live in the area of Stuart FL and would be interested in giving this Yankee beekeeper a look at your hive please respond to: Jeffrey_Young@crd.lotus.com I will be in the Stuart FL area until from now until 11/26. thanks, jeff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 07:40:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Rising Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Hive Mold Problem A friend here in Buffalo who keeps a few hives lost all of his bees last winter to what he believes were ear mites. He did not use the hives this year and now he has a different problem. They are covered -- inside -- with a white mold. Can anyone give me some guidance about how to rid this hive (a) of the mold and (b) of any possible remaining mites. (I assume that the latter left with the bees, but there may be some related problem that requires a particular kind of cleaning.) Guy is a beginning beekeeper (and I am even less knowledgeable) so any help you can give us will be very much appreciated. I guess I have missed asking one more thing. How can he prevent or at least lessen the chance of reinfection of his hive? Thanks in advance for any help. ----------------------------------------------- Gerry Rising insrisg@ubvms.bitnet 295 Robinhill Drive insrisg@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Williamsville, NY 14221-1639 716-689-8301 ----------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 15:32:12 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mick Mayhew Subject: Re: Hive Mold Problem In-Reply-To: from "Gerry Rising " at Nov 21, 94 07:40:10 am > > A friend here in Buffalo who keeps a few hives lost all of his bees last > winter to what he believes were ear mites. He did not use the hives this > year and now he has a different problem. They are covered -- inside -- with > a white mold. > > Can anyone give me some guidance about how to rid this hive (a) of the mold > and (b) of any possible remaining mites. (I assume that the latter left with > the bees, but there may be some related problem that requires a particular > kind of cleaning.) > > Guy is a beginning beekeeper (and I am even less knowledgeable) so any help > you can give us will be very much appreciated. > > I guess I have missed asking one more thing. How can he prevent or at least > lessen the chance of reinfection of his hive? > > Thanks in advance for any help. > ----------------------------------------------- > Gerry Rising insrisg@ubvms.bitnet > 295 Robinhill Drive insrisg@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu > Williamsville, NY 14221-1639 716-689-8301 > ----------------------------------------------- There is a simple and reliable solution to this problem if all the bees have gone. 1. Remove any old comb from the frames (it's almost impossible to sterilise this so it's not worth the risk of keeping it) 2. Scorch the inside of the hive and all the frames with a blow torch (the kind that is used for stripping paint), this will kill the mould and any mites. 3. Use new foundation to retart next year. PS. What are ear mites? I've never heard of them in the UK. -- M J E Mayhew Rugby Beekeepers England ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 15:22:46 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Richard A. Haver" Subject: Re: Hive Mold Problem --- You wrote: and now he has a different problem. They are covered -- inside -- with > a white mold. > > Can anyone give me some guidance about how to rid this hive (a) of the mold --- end of quoted material --- i have simply re-used moldy combs without apparent problem. the bees clean them up and use them and i soon forget which were the moldy combs. am i doing something wrong here? is this stuff not tantamount to mold seen on jelly? Rick Haver dartmouth.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 20:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Tafe Subject: unsubscribe I would like to remove my name from your list. Thankyou for all the information. It was very helpful. Mike Tafe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Rising Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Hive Mold Problem In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Mon, 21 Nov 1994 15:32:12 +0000" <01HJQTQRC2GI8X4YN3@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> Thank you very much for the information. I do not know the answer to your question about ear mites. The very idea of them reminds me of that wonder- ful Swift doggerell: So, naturalists observe, a flea Hath smaller fleas that on him prey; And these have smaller still to bite 'em; And so proceed ad infinitum. Regards and thanks again, Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 07:58:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: Hive Mold Problem Hold on a moment: Ear mites exist: they are a nuisance to mammals (horses, etc) but they don't affect bees. The problem Guy likely had with his bees is caused by another parasitic mite: either varroa or tracheal mites. I think the best thing for him to do is contact a local beekeepers association (or even one beekeeper) and learn about the problem with some new friends. Another course would be to read about the problems in a book from the library (The Hive and the Honeybee, 1992 edition by J Graham, Dadant and Sons, to start). A quick answer is that the mites die soon (within 2 weeks) after the bees. New bees will become re-infested, but from neighbouring bee colonies, not from the old equipment. The mould is not a disease. It results from cool moist conditions: new bees will clean up quite a messy-looking few combs, but a strong colony is better equiped to do the job. Otherwise good combs can be reused without any harm, but if they are plugged with mouldy pollen it's debatable whether the comb is worth all the work the bees have to put into restoring it. Good Luck Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:45:18 GMT Reply-To: Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Gordon L. Scott" Subject: Re: Hive Mold Problem > and now he has a different problem. They are covered -- inside -- with > a white mold. > > Can anyone give me some guidance about how to rid this hive (a) of the mold Many people in our area of UK sterilise spare equipment during the winter using acetic acid, which is good for killing most pests -- bacteria, fungi, wax moth and so on. We use the acetic acid at 80% glacial strength (from a chemist/pharmacy) so wants handling with some care -- heavy rubber gloves are recommended and try not to breath the fumes. Place an absorbent pad (I use paper kitchen towel) at about each foot of height in a stack of hives and soak the pad with a little acid (1 oz?). Leaving for a few days is quite sufficient to kill just about all pests (I'm not sure about AFB spores), then you can open the boxes and ventilate just about any time you want. I'm *told* it even penetrates cappings and can kill pests inside as well. One other thing. Although acetic acid doesn't harm wood or wax, it is quite corrosive to some metals so keep an eye on frame runners & frame wire. -- Gordon Scott Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Basingstoke Beekeeper Beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Compuserve 100332,3310 Just because it's in black and white doesn't mean to say it's right! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:59:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: Strange drones. Regarding drone drift: Rob Currie did a PhD ('88?) specifically on drone drift, at U of Manitoba with Prof. Cam Jay, who with several students over many years had studied other aspects of honey bee drift. Cam has retired and Rob is now Professor (and working with varroa, since Manitoba is one of the few areas in Canada, where varroa is well established). My recollection of Rob's conclusions is that drones drifted extensively within a yard, less to nearby yards, but were not found in yards further than 1 km or half a mile away. I don't remember if Rob looked at drift to queenless hives, but it is sometimes very obvious. A good question would be whether drones follow queens (or other drones) back from congregation areas. This would be more emigration than drift. It looks to me like there is certainly something that distributes varroa around, more than the conventional drift model would suggest. In B.C., the distribution of varroa in an apiary (and in a region) has been much more uniform, even during the very initial stages, than was the case with tracheal mites. Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 00:26:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Re: Hive Mold Problem In-Reply-To: <199411211247.AA19922@world.std.com> As to mites, the types that affect bees are tracheal mites and varroa mites. I've never heard of ear mites bugging bees. Regardless, after over a year the mites would be long gone. (but they'll be back, have him learn on early diagnosis/treatment of mites) As to mold, is it mold or a bunch of "hairy" tunnels? If the latter it's wax moth. If they've eaten the comb pretty much up then replace them with new foundation. If it's mold bees will clean it up, but if it's gotten too bad again replace the comb. In a colony I had by the end of winter all the bees were in the upper "story" and the lower story was blue green and white mold like sick bread mold. But after the colony grew stronger in the spring the bees cleaned everything up and everything was fine. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 02:51:21 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: Varroa resistance in Italy In-Reply-To: <9411200257.AA36243@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote: > bee pathologist signs an article confirming the resistance of varroa to Apista n deleted> > I read with interest the the last issue of Apis. The possible "revenge" of bu gs > and microorganisms we fight from our colonies is a big concern for me. I thi nk > the TM approach of the AFB problem that prevails in north America is a > dangerous. I am convinced that it is possible to operate large commercial > operation without TM. I operate a commercial apiary (550 hives and 1400 matin g > nucs) since 1977 and I have never used the drug. Yearly inspection of all the > colonies, replacement of the combs every 4-6 years has been sufficient to keep a > good control of the situation. I also had to destroy or shake colonies > occasionnally, but very few. Less that one per year on average. TM is > dangerous since it only hides problems or potential problems. Unfortunately, > for most beekeepers who have been using TM for years, it is very difficult to > stop using it. In an ideal world, we could win a battle and it could stay won - but not too often this world. A most interesting subject. I haven't finished with our previous discussions (still wrapping bees), but I couldn't resist a word or two (or more) on this. . . Any victory tends to be temporary. Drugs have provided a respite for both bees and mammals, but there will always be a 'round two' etc. Rather than to say 'the battle is ultimately doomed, so lets not try', I prefer to look at the years of relief that drugs have given us, and look for more similar advantages. We can't rest on our laurels. The pests don't. The worst that can happen is that we will revert to our status before drugs came on the scene. The best that can happen is that we may be able to extend our temporary advantage. After all, life is temporary. Mankind has been able to lay a saddle on many organisms and befriend many former foes. We are unable to avoid the widespread movement of pests and parasites without sacrificing communication and travel, and trade. Most of us believe the advantages to us (humans and friends/allies) outweigh the costs/risks. As communication and travel get faster, the populations of hosts increase in size and the potential for severe outbreaks of fatal disease/infestation increases. *But* so does the pool of possible solutions. I am not sure that, in the case of AFB, physically destroying any evidence of a disease - that is obviously there everywhere in the background - is much different from treating with drugs from a selection point of view - unless one argues that the former selects for a more benign form of AFB that does not cause breakdown or a variety of bees that is resistant to the disease or both. Drugs and other chemical controls may or may not be a stopgap measure depending on whether - in a specific case - it is possible for the target to develop resistance. I don't think mammals are likely to develop resistance to cyanide, for example. The poison is too fundamentally and drastically effective. The problems occur where the target is similar to the host such as in the case of mites and bees. Effective chemicals have to exploit obvious and permanent differences between the two. In the case of pyrethroids, as far as I know, all cold blooded critters find them toxic to varying degrees. I am not sure of the mechanism, but I gather when used on mites, the dosage is somewhat critical. I know from the following anecdote that bees are more resistant than house flies. . . . * * * * * * * * * Several years ago (maybe more), we heard about the wonderful Alberta Bee being developed at great expense up in Beaverlodge. After much waiting, at last queens were released for industry evaluation - ten or so at a time. We, of course ordered some and they arrived. They were beautiful. The attendants were robust and the queens were large. I laid the qeen cages on the counter and watered them. My wife was going to use the queens shortly, so I left them face up. I went back to my bookwork. There were a few particularly pesky flies in the building and one kept landing on my bald spot. I had to go out for a few moments, so, out of habit, I took a can of Raid (a mixture of a pyrethroid and something else) and laid down a cloud and went out. On returning, I heard a buzzing. Ooops! The flies were dead, alright - or in the final stages, but the bees weren't looking too good either. They did look much better than the flies, but not to take any chances, I changed the attendants (which were more affected than the queens) and used the queens - which seemed okay and apparently went on to do well. * * * * * * * * * * Similar to pyrethroids, formic acid in excess would surely damage the bees at some level not too far above the amount lethal to mites. (Comments invited). This is the problem. I can see, without using too much imagination, how a mite could evolve resistance to either of these, seeing as we can't use enough to overkill by a large enough measure. Tetracycline has problem too. In a dose slightly higher than that required to control AFB, (honeybee) larval mortality becomes a problem, I understand. Since the dose is critical - at least the window is fairly narrow, we have the same problem. We can't 'nuke' the offending organism without damaging the host. Sulfa didn't seem to have the same problems, and while available for the purpose, was much superior due to its persistence. Having a second, unrelated drug at hand, decreased the chance of developing resistant strains of AFB considerably. For any 'permanent' solution, we need controls - or a combination of controls - that are so uniquely fatal to the target and benign to the host, that there is no way that the target can adapt. I read somewhere that pathology is the result of inconclusive negotiations for symbiosis. Of course the ideal solution is to encourage the mites to mutate to become beneficial to the bees, while outcompeting the present strain. And, since Christmas is coming, it would be nice to have a strain of AFB that boosted honey production. What do you say, researchers - are we missing an opportunity? :) Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA PS I can see that I haven't thought this out as rigorously as I would like, but I'll post it anyhow. For discussion and derision. :) Maybe it should be in a philosophical group like alt.atheism or such. Later. . . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 02:51:21 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: Varroa resistance in Italy In-Reply-To: <9411200257.AA36243@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote: > bee pathologist signs an article confirming the resistance of varroa to Apistan deleted> > I read with interest the the last issue of Apis. The possible "revenge" of bugs > and microorganisms we fight from our colonies is a big concern for me. I think > the TM approach of the AFB problem that prevails in north America is a > dangerous. I am convinced that it is possible to operate large commercial > operation without TM. I operate a commercial apiary (550 hives and 1400 mating > nucs) since 1977 and I have never used the drug. Yearly inspection of all the > colonies, replacement of the combs every 4-6 years has been sufficient to keep a > good control of the situation. I also had to destroy or shake colonies > occasionnally, but very few. Less that one per year on average. TM is > dangerous since it only hides problems or potential problems. Unfortunately, > for most beekeepers who have been using TM for years, it is very difficult to > stop using it. In an ideal world, we could win a battle and it could stay won - but not too often this world. A most interesting subject. I haven't finished with our previous discussions (still wrapping bees), but I couldn't resist a word or two (or more) on this. . . Any victory tends to be temporary. Drugs have provided a respite for both bees and mammals, but there will always be a 'round two' etc. Rather than to say 'the battle is ultimately doomed, so lets not try', I prefer to look at the years of relief that drugs have given us, and look for more similar advantages. We can't rest on our laurels. The pests don't. The worst that can happen is that we will revert to our status before drugs came on the scene. The best that can happen is that we may be able to extend our temporary advantage. After all, life is temporary. Mankind has been able to lay a saddle on many organisms and befriend many former foes. We are unable to avoid the widespread movement of pests and parasites without sacrificing communication and travel, and trade. Most of us believe the advantages to us (humans and friends/allies) outweigh the costs/risks. As communication and travel get faster, the populations of hosts increase in size and the potential for severe outbreaks of fatal disease/infestation increases. *But* so does the pool of possible solutions. I am not sure that, in the case of AFB, physically destroying any evidence of a disease - that is obviously there everywhere in the background - is much different from treating with drugs from a selection point of view - unless one argues that the former selects for a more benign form of AFB that does not cause breakdown or a variety of bees that is resistant to the disease or both. Drugs and other chemical controls may or may not be a stopgap measure depending on whether - in a specific case - it is possible for the target to develop resistance. I don't think mammals are likely to develop resistance to cyanide, for example. The poison is too fundamentally and drastically effective. The problems occur where the target is similar to the host such as in the case of mites and bees. Effective chemicals have to exploit obvious and permanent differences between the two. In the case of pyrethroids, as far as I know, all cold blooded critters find them toxic to varying degrees. I am not sure of the mechanism, but I gather when used on mites, the dosage is somewhat critical. I know from the following anecdote that bees are more resistant than house flies. . . . * * * * * * * * * Several years ago (maybe more), we heard about the wonderful Alberta Bee being developed at great expense up in Beaverlodge. After much waiting, at last queens were released for industry evaluation - ten or so at a time. We, of course ordered some and they arrived. They were beautiful. The attendants were robust and the queens were large. I laid the qeen cages on the counter and watered them. My wife was going to use the queens shortly, so I left them face up. I went back to my bookwork. There were a few particularly pesky flies in the building and one kept landing on my bald spot. I had to go out for a few moments, so, out of habit, I took a can of Raid (a mixture of a pyrethroid and something else) and laid down a cloud and went out. On returning, I heard a buzzing. Ooops! The flies were dead, alright - or in the final stages, but the bees weren't looking too good either. They did look much better than the flies, but not to take any chances, I changed the attendants (which were more affected than the queens) and used the queens - which seemed okay and apparently went on to do well. * * * * * * * * * * Similar to pyrethroids, formic acid in excess would surely damage the bees at some level not too far above the amount lethal to mites. (Comments invited). This is the problem. I can see, without using too much imagination, how a mite could evolve resistance to either of these, seeing as we can't use enough to overkill by a large enough measure. Tetracycline has problem too. In a dose slightly higher than that required to control AFB, (honeybee) larval mortality becomes a problem, I understand. Since the dose is critical - at least the window is fairly narrow, we have the same problem. We can't 'nuke' the offending organism without damaging the host. Sulfa didn't seem to have the same problems, and while available for the purpose, was much superior due to its persistence. Having a second, unrelated drug at hand, decreased the chance of developing resistant strains of AFB considerably. For any 'permanent' solution, we need controls - or a combination of controls - that are so uniquely fatal to the target and benign to the host, that there is no way that the target can adapt. I read somewhere that pathology is the result of inconclusive negotiations for symbiosis. Of course the ideal solution is to encourage the mites to mutate to become beneficial to the bees, while outcompeting the present strain. And, since Christmas is coming, it would be nice to have a strain of AFB that boosted honey production. What do you say, researchers - are we missing an opportunity? :) Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA PS I can see that I haven't thought this out as rigorously as I would like, but I'll post it anyhow. For discussion and derision. :) Maybe it should be in a philosophical group like alt.atheism or such. Later. . . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 03:07:43 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: Strange drones. In-Reply-To: <9411230926.AA33406@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> > Regarding drone drift: > drones drifted extensively > within a yard, less to nearby yards, but were not found in yards > further than 1 km or half a mile away. > It looks to me like there is certainly something that distributes varroa > around, more than the conventional drift model would suggest. In B.C., > the distribution of varroa in an apiary (and in a region) has been much > more uniform, even during the very initial stages, than was the case > with tracheal mites. FWIW - At the Alberta Beekeepers Association convention, a speaker mentioned the following anecdote, which I repeat without attribution as just that: As a test, a US beekeeper shook some bulk bees from one of his yards and then sprinkled flour on them. He then drove through another county where he had bees and threw some of them off the truck here and there along the highway. A survey shortly thereafter revealed bees with flour on them at hives as far away as one and one half miles from the release points!!!! This might have some implications regarding loads of supers on the way to the honey house on open trucks and loads of bees on their way to pollination, I think. Comments? Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:45:59 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Re: Varroa resistance in Italy On Wed Nov 23, W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper wrote [a nice discussion on natural vs allopathic control of bee diseases] > >Of course the ideal solution is to encourage the mites to mutate to become >beneficial to the bees, while outcompeting the present strain. And, since >Christmas is coming, it would be nice to have a strain of AFB that boosted >honey production. I would like to expand on this concept further. Has there been any research done with artificially sterilizing a population of mites to control their population in a hive? I remember seeing a film on the sterilization control the swarms of locusts in Africa. Is there a part of the life cycle in varroa that is controllable or at which point they are vulnerable to allopathic or natural intervention? Paul Cronshaw DC Hobbyist Beekeeper cronshaw@rain.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 08:35:25 GMT Reply-To: Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Gordon L. Scott" Subject: Re: Disease Resistance (was VR in Italy) W. Allen Dick wrote: > Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote: > > > > > > > bee pathologist signs an article confirming the resistance of > > varroa to Apistan > > > > > > > > I read with interest the the last issue of Apis. The possible > > "revenge" of bugs and microorganisms we fight from our colonies is > > a big concern for me. I think the TM approach of the AFB problem > > that prevails in north America is a dangerous. I am convinced > > that it is possible to operate large commercial operation without > > TM. I operate a commercial apiary (550 hives and 1400 mating nucs) > > since 1977 and I have never used the drug. > > > > Yearly inspection of all the colonies, replacement of the combs > > every 4-6 years has been sufficient to keep a good control of the > > situation. I also had to destroy or shake colonies occasionnally, > > but very few. Less that one per year on average. TM is dangerous > > since it only hides problems or potential problems. > > Unfortunately, for most beekeepers who have been using TM for > > years, it is very difficult to stop using it. > > > In an ideal world, we could win a battle and it could stay won - but not > > too often this world. > Any victory tends to be temporary. Drugs have provided a respite for > both bees and mammals, but there will always be a 'round two' etc. Rather > than to say 'the battle is ultimately doomed, so lets not try', I prefer > to look at the years of relief that drugs have given us, and look for > more similar advantages. > > We can't rest on our laurels. The pests don't. The worst that can happen is > that we will revert to our status before drugs came on the scene. The > best that can happen is that we may be able to extend our temporary > advantage. After all, life is temporary. > > > I am not sure that, in the case of AFB, physically destroying any evidence > of a disease - that is obviously there everywhere in the background - is > much different from treating with drugs from a selection point of view - > unless one argues that the former selects for a more benign form of AFB > that does not cause breakdown or a variety of bees that is resistant to > the disease or both. > > Drugs and other chemical controls may or may not be a stopgap measure > depending on whether - in a specific case - it is possible for the target > to develop resistance. I don't think mammals are likely to develop > resistance to cyanide, for example. The poison is too fundamentally and > drastically effective. The problems occur where the target is similar to > the host such as in the case of mites and bees. Effective chemicals have > to exploit obvious and permanent differences between the two. This could develope into quite a heated discussion :-) I share a number of Jean-Pierre's concerns. I and many others are not against the use of drugs per se. I am concerned about resistance to drugs. There is evidence of resistance already, I personally have destroyed EFB infected colonies which would not respond to tetracycline treatment. I have greater concerns still with AFB, which has a spore stage (unlike EFB) which can survive for _many_ years (about 50 I understand) in that form. The spore stage is immune to antibiotics. I have secondary concerns. Tetracyclin is a powerful antibiotic used for treating a large range of bacterial infections. Whilst it breaks down fairly quickly in the colony, there is still the risk of indiscriminate spread of the antibiotic into other areas -- via honey possibly. Other organisms then also gain increased resistance. Generally speaking, as I understand it (someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong) antibiotics don't kill the bacteria, just slow the reproduction rate until nature deals with the infection. This means that whilst we treat we are increasing resistance but not eliminating the bacterium. Aggresive treatments away from the bees (fire, acetic acid etc.) will destroy the bacterium. Run out of time here..... regards, -- Gordon Scott Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Compuserve 100332,3310 Basingstoke Beekeeper Beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk RELIABLE SOURCE : The guy you just met. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 09:16:15 +22300129 Reply-To: adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Re: Disease Resistance (was VR in Italy) In-Reply-To: <199411241341.IAA08922@ipe.cc.vt.edu> from "Gordon L. Scott" at Nov 24, 94 08:35:25 am Gordon L. Scott, wrote, > > W. Allen Dick wrote: > > Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote: > > > > > > > > One of the best beekeepers I know who really makes his living from honey production answered my question about selection for tolerance/resistance by saying: "I don't want to be the guinea pig." This really opened my eyes to the whole agricultural/chemical dilemma. This guy depends on his bees to keep him alive. Yes, he probably could have avoided foul, and not had to use blanket TM treatments, but he was making money then, when his bees broke down with AFB, and he didn't have the time, or care to eradicate the AFB reservoirs. Thus as in most other types of Western agriculture, the manager plays with chemical management models, originally implemented for ease and profit, now for survival. Populations of "good" bees exist. Anyone who raises queens knows that there are some really good bees to be made out there, yet it takes time, money and risk. *Risk* My friend cannot take his colonies and rigorously select for what he needs: too risky. A queen breeder, selecting for quality bees told me he couldn't sell any bees that weren't yellow. Too risky. So what happens? People are working on selection, have breeding programs, and are formulating new management tactics. All this is risky too; imagine spending 10 years breeding bees and then have them be second to someone else's? As a beekeeper and agriculturalist, one probably should watch, listen and wait: let's see what's on the horizon. Adam -- _________________________________________________________________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu | (awaiting my muse...) ___________________________________________|_____________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:09:16 GMT Reply-To: Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Gordon L. Scott" Subject: Re: Disease Resistance (was VR in Italy) In message <9411241427.aa29992@post.demon.co.uk> adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu writes: > Gordon L. Scott, wrote, > > W. Allen Dick wrote: > > Jean-Pierre > Chapleau wrote: > > > > > > > > > > One of the best beekeepers I know who really makes his living from honey > production answered my question about selection for tolerance/resistance by > saying: "I don't want to be the guinea pig." > This really opened my eyes to the whole agricultural/chemical dilemma. > This guy depends on his bees to keep him alive. Yes, he probably could have > avoided foul, and not had to use blanket TM treatments, but he was making > money then, when his bees broke down with AFB, and he didn't have the time, > or care to eradicate the AFB reservoirs. > Thus as in most other types of Western agriculture, the manager plays with > chemical management models, originally implemented for ease and profit, now for > survival. That seems to demonstrate the problem well. Here in the UK, TM treatment of bees by beekeepers is forbidden by law (not that that stops some doing it) for two main purposes. An attempt to minimise TM resisance and to avoid obscuring the presense of AFB. AFB is automaticaly and mandatorialy destroyed by fire and all equipment is scorched to sterilise it. EFB ditto if it fails to respond prompty to treatment. Fortunately, members of the British BKA and bee farmers can get good economic insurance that largely covers the financial costs. I can't of course deal with the upset of having our bees killed. Our EFB and AFB rates are pretty low here in spite of little or no treatment respectively -- I don't have figures to hand but could get them. I don't _think_ that the low figures are because people hide infections although that must sometimes happen. We do have government inspectors to 'police' the system. In Australia, I know that many farmers simply requeen whenever they see EFB (I don't know what they do for AFB), much as we might for chalkbrood/sacbrood. Most don't use antibiotics. But then in 'oz' they have warm weather pretty well all year round so they can perhaps handle these things differently. I don't think they see _very_ much of either EFB or AFB. What happens in blanket treatment areas if the treatment stops, or worse stops working? . Sadly, in some areas of the world, I think agriculture may be already trapped or nearly trapped into long-term chemical use. I have athlete's foot (a fungal infection). I've had it for 30 years and I spend about one UKP every two weeks on treatment that suppresses it, but never actually cures it. I estimate that at nearly UKP 1000 worth of chemicals. Ho hum... -- Gordon Scott Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Compuserve 100332,3310 Basingstoke Beekeeper Beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:55:41 +22300129 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Weak queens and strange drones In-Reply-To: <199411180808.DAA11023@ipe.cc.vt.edu> from "Andy Nachbaur" at Nov 18, 94 02:50:00 am Andy Nachbaur wrote, on: > Subject: Re: Strange drones. responding to: >> >> Subject: Re: Strange sighting of drone. > One thing that is for certain the hives that produce the drones > are not necessarily the ones' that will house them. Drones may be > deficient in eye sight, but they are great at finding the hives with > the stinky queens. This is interesting. So do weak queens attract drones? If so, why? Perhaps so that when the queen is eventually superseded, there will be enough drones? Or maybe weak queens produce less or more of some pheromonal substance and the drones are able to sense this, and find these colonies... but why? For possible supersedure again? Adam -- _________________________________________________________________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu | (awaiting my muse...) ___________________________________________|_____________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 17:13:12 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Malcolm Roe Subject: Re: Disease Resistance (was VR in Italy) In-Reply-To: <66@apis.demon.co.uk> from "Gordon L. Scott" at Nov 25, 94 02:09:16 pm Gordon, I hope you're not suggesting that the best treatment for athlete's foot is destruction by fire! -- Malcolm Roe Phone : +44 1442 345104 Crosfield Electronics Ltd Fax : +44 1442 232301 Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK E-mail : roe@crosfield.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 03:49:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: Drugs. . . On Thu, 24 Nov 1994, Andy Nachbaur wrote: > Its one thing to spend money if you have it, it quite another thing to > risk the market for Honey which in no small part is due to the words, > NATURAL, PURE, and Wholesome. Sugar in many forms is a well known > substitute for Honey. True, and we had a period years ago, when everyone aked if we fed our bees sugar and somehow could not understand that if we fed starving bees sugar in the spring that that did not mean they would make 'honey' from that same sugar in August. Many people were concerned about drug feeding a few years ago. I hear nothing about it now from customers. > but with honey bees much is lacking in real knowledge about the basics, > like "how do honey bees survive without man?", or maybe better stated > "can honey bees survive without man?". I suspect that in much of the > pasture man has moved them they can not survive, at least in the numbers > that we may consider normal. Just abandon a yard for a year or two and find out! At least in this country, the mice take over fast - after the AFB. > AFB is a beekeepers disease more then a disease of bees, IMHO. It is > true that it is the only disease that will kill all your hives if you > don't control it, but it is also true that feral colonies are seldom > affect by it. How you control it is up to the beekeepers and those who > regulate them. In areas that have little or no AFB, it is proper to > destroy all bees, including hives that are infected. In other areas > regular drug use can hold the level of infection to 1/2 of 1%, if > infected hives are destroyed. I don't know what our breakdown rate would be if we quit using Tetracycline and resorted to burning. Probably not all that high, but the inspections needed to keep it detected in time would be a real killer! > <>Tetracycline has problem too. In a dose slightly higher than that > <>required to control AFB, (honeybee) larval mortality becomes a > <>problem, I understand. Since the dose is critical - at least the > <>window is fairly narrow, we have the same problem. We can't 'nuke' > <>the offending organism without damaging the host. Sulfa didn't seem to > <>have the same problems, and while available for the purpose, was much > <>superior due to its persistence. Having a second, unrelated drug at > <>hand, decreased the chance of developing resistant strains of AFB > <>considerably. > > If you just dust bees for disease control, and leave out all the > chemical ingredients, there will be mortality in the unsealed brood from > the dust be it sugar or rice flower. I am sure that it is very very > rare for bees to be poisoned by beekeepers using TM in any form. Not > impossible but very unlikely in the field. I have worked with some very > hot or high dosages of TM with little or no economic damage to bees. > Take my word for it I have found others things that will shut a hive > down, but TM is not a problem and its value to beekeepers can not be > over stated. IMHO. I notice you say 'economic'. Well, I have never seen obvious TM damage, BUT James Bach was up here recently and showed us how to do viability tests on brood by uncapping a grid of pupae and looking at eye colour. What impressed me was that just because we see a solid pattern doesn't mean that some of the the capped brood we are looking at hasn't been replaced when it died. We also had a impressive lady up from a California university, a researcher, at the Vernon meeting of the CHC/CAPA two years ago or so, and she gave us fairly detailed figures on the toxicity of TM to brood. (I'm sorry I can't recall the name, although I've often wanted to because she had one of the most fascinating presentations). I really don't listen all that well, but I recall having concluded that, asssuming she was right - and I have every reason to believe her - we should be seeing some slight mortality, even at recommended dusting dosages due to uneven distribution, and that it wouldn't take a large dose increase (say an order of magnitude) to do serious harm. As for me - in real life, after all these years I've concluded that the drug works well when used at about double the generally recommended rate, and is a waste of time money and hope, otherwise. So, there you go. . . W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 07:08:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: Wild Bee's BBS (209)826-8107 Subject: Added Value MO Honey This message was from ANDY NACHBAUR originally in conference WN-BEENET on WILDBEES (WILD BEE'S BBS) search: HONEY ADDED VALUE Mail Order As a producer of a speciality crop like honey the opportunity to add value to ones' production is limited, but today the future is cloudy with the winds of change, and one of these changes has been an increased competition for bulk market share from off shore producers. The small to mid-size beekeeper can look to other work to increase the value of his production. This is not a new idea but one that merits more study. A few years ago I attended a meeting of world wide honey producers and was fascinated by the reports from Germany that at the time honey was considered by many as essential in the diet for a normal healthy life, and the the main retail outlets for honey was the drug store, and/or mail order. Well honey reached our chain drug stores maybe 20-25 years ago, but it is sold mostly as a lost leader to attract people (older) to the store, and the quality has not always been good at any price. But still it has become an important market for packers on the west coast who fight to see who can wholesale honey the cheapest. Hardly the added value market we as producer maybe looking for. The mail order business is another story, I don't know off hand if its been that good for any honey producers in it, and know of at least one who lost a lot of money after several years trying to capitalize on a well known name. But I would like to report on one approach that at least looks interesting and attractive in the way it is presented in a up scale catalog for personal and business gifts. The company is called RENT MOTHER NATURE and if you want to send for their 53 page catalog the address is: 52 New Street, P.O. Box 380193 Cambridge, MA 02238-0193 (800) 296-9445 Customer Service According to what Bob MacArthur writes in the very excellent quality catalog they "lease" you MAPLE TREES, BEE HIVES, APPLE, CITRUS, COFFEE, and LOBSTER POTS, plus a few more. You receive "beautifully calligraphed and personalized Lease Document (suitable for framing), a series of Progress Reports advising of actual growing conditions, and much more..."putting culture back into agriculture" MacArthur writes. In the end you get at least 20 ounces of fresh honey per lease, and a promise for "more if your bees are extra-industrious!". The catalog if full of different options and items of honey, beeswax candles, soaps and the like along with the fruit, nuts and so on. The added value is in the mail advertising, PROMOTION of the abstract idea of leasing a bee hive or fruit tree, and in the attractive packaging, ease of ordering via 800 numbers, credit cards and the fact that this catalog is more then likely sent only to areas and people who can afford to shop for the quality offered and are not so concerned with price like you and I. After getting passed the sticker shock, the prices are not that bad if you get passed the sticker shock. Some examples: Single Flavor Honey Lease with 3 reports $15.95 Two-Flavor with 5 reports $29.95 Four Flavor with 9 reports $57.95 By the Way the flavors are Raspberry, Blueberry, Thyme, and Cranberry Bog. Price for Honey alone shipped in a "hand-crafted wooden box" and the Lease for additional flavor, all the above is: $35.95, $49.95, and $77.95.. all has a "Guarantee of a share of the entire output of the hive--at least 20 ounces", no additives, pure, and natural, plus the standard litany of the back to nature crowd. You can also by Honey by the pound, any 3 flavors at $14.95, and any four at $17.95. They also sell Honey-Buckwheat Pancake Mix, 24 oz for $4.50. Well you get the idea so I will end this before it looks like a commercial, which it is not, only intended to show how one man has added value to what he may produce. The gifts run up to $750.00 for the "Endless Bounty Lease" sent out monthly. ttul Andy- OH! I forgot you can Lease a Sheep too, two get you a 80 x 90 blanket for $249.00 and if you Lease a Lamb you get a 40 x 45 baby blanket for $69.95 __ __ / \ / \ \ \ / / \^+^/ \ \ / \|/ (O O)=|Wild Bees @ @ \_/ \_BBS_ / `--> andy@beenet.com ------------------oOO-(_)-OOo--------Y-------------------------------------- *Note what is written above is not a representation of anymore then what is stated in the catalog, and does not represent a claim for value received for money spent. DO NOT EXPECT any sympathy from me if you were to buy something because of what you read here and were not satisfied. But if you do try it, or start your own mail order Honey business let us know how great it was, or how bad. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 11:47:23 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Johns Subject: Books for sale Books for sale. In no particular order: BEEKEEPING. Frank Vernon. 1976 BASIC BEEKEEPING. Owen Meyer. 1978 THE ART & ADVENTURE OF BEEKEEPING. Ormond and Harry Aebi. 1975 MASTERING THE ART OF BEEKEEPING. Ormond and Harry Aebi. 1979 500 ANSWERS TO BEE QUESTIONS. Pub.. by A.I. Root Company, Medina, Ohio. 1975 PRACTICAL BEEKEEPING. Enoch Tompkins & Roger M. Grffith ABC and XYZ of BEE CULTURE. The A.I. Root Bee Library. (This last one is a classic. It has a preface going back to the 1877 edition!) The books are all in pretty good condition. Only the last is a hard copy. This last book is in good condition, i.e. the pages and such, but the hard cover back has peeled off. Will need a little TLC to put into collectors condition.) Sold only as a package. Make me an offer. We'll spit shipping*. Direct email only, I'm not reading this list. Have a good one. Bill johnsw@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu PS. I can deliver to much of the Pacific Northwest. I will be in Portland & Seattle & Spokane within the next 7 weeks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 16:15:04 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Strange drones. In-Reply-To: from "Allen Dick 546-2588" at Nov 23, 94 03:07:43 am > The following is edited heavily and follows discussions of drone drift: > FWIW - At the Alberta Beekeepers Association convention, a speaker mentioned > the following anecdote, which I repeat without attribution as just that: > > As a test, a US beekeeper shook some bulk bees from one of his yards and then > sprinkled flour on them. He then drove through another county where he > had bees and threw some of them off the truck here and there along the > highway. > > A survey shortly thereafter revealed bees with flour on them at hives as far > away as one and one half miles from the release points!!!! > > This might have some implications regarding loads of supers on the way to beeyards. > Allen Dick > > Allen, > Some years ago, One of my undergraduate students, Quinn Carver, performed just such an experiment. Working with a Montana migratory beekeeper, he shook packages from colonies just delivered from California. He marked thousands of bees with blue paint. He then drove down the highway sprinkling bees out of his pickup truck. Along the highway were beeyards that had been in place for more than a month. As I remember, he also started about 1 1/2 miles from the nearest apiary. Having exhausted his "painted packages", he then went to a beeyard about 1000 meters from the highway. He sat down to eat his lunch, expecting to put in a very boring day. However, before he had even settled in, a blue bee flew by, landed on a hive entrance, and walked in the door. Soon other painted bees showed up. Before the end of the day, not only had he seen painted bees arriving at the hives, he also had a photograph of two blue bees near the queen on a brood frame!! Quinn's experiment was not very sophisticated, but it certainly indicates that bees lost off of trucks don't: 1) sit in the barrow pit and wait to die, or 2) wander aimlessly. Since all of the bees cames from the same bee operation, we can't rule out the possability that the marked bees weren't to some degree related to the queens in the hives that they entered. However, this was a several thousand colony operation using queens from various suppliers and the target apiary had been in place for some time prior to the arrival of the colonies from which the packages were made up. Quinn submitted a paper to ABJ, but they decided it was too long. Since it was only two typewritten pages, that surprised me. I encouraged him to publish his findings as a short note or even a letter to the editor, but I don't think he ever got around to it. This little test was conducted after the Montana beekeepers debated and defeated a resolution that advocated using nets on loads of bees being transported through our state. Although not definitive, Quinn's test confirms the anecdotal report of a beekeeper dusting bees and finding them at hives. Finding them in the hives beside the queen is worrisome. It certainly suggests that mites could be distributed in this manner. Oh, yes, Quinn was working with mostly worker bees - not drones. In our ongoing research, we have seen worker bees infested with either tracheal mites or varroa mites or both. Personally, I'd recommend netting those loads of bees. Cheers Jerry J. Bromenshenk The University of Montana jjbmail@selway.umt.edu 406-243-5648 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 20:55:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: Wild Bee's BBS (209)826-8107 Subject: About Wildbee's BBS This is your GETINFO file from Wild Bee's bbs. send email to 'getinfo@beenet.com' for this file. ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___ / \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/XXX\___/ \___/ \___/ \___/XXX\ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \XXX/:::\___/:::\___/:::\___/:::\XXX/ /XXX\ For INDEX of Beekeeping FAQs`::::::::::::::::::::::::::::/ \ \XXX/ e-mail to: hint.ind@beenet.com `:::::::::::::::::::::::\___/ / \ __ __ `:::::::::::::::/ \ \___/ / \ \^+^/ / \ Andy Nachbaur `::::::\___/ / \ Dial Up \ \(O O)/ / Wild Bee's BBS `:::/ \ \___/ Area (209)\ \\_// //-->> BEENET.COM `:\___/ / \ 826-8107 --oOO--Y--OOo---------------------------- :/ \ \___/ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ \___/ / \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/XXX\___/ \___/ \ \___/ \___/XXX\___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \XXX/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \XXX/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ The Wild Bee's BBS is a private beekeeping industry support bulletin board and information service. It is a dial up system, and does FAQ's, Messages and File Transfers via INTERNET E-MAIL. Files are sent as requested as file attachments to E-Mail. The dial up bbs offers QWK mail of interest to beekeepers and carries the BEE NET US, BEE-LIST from the BIT NET, and the Internet BEEKEEPING News Group (sci.agr.beekeeping). If you would like to catch up in your reading these mail conferences are held for one year and you can down load them to read in your favorite Off Line Mail Reader, or d/l a reader the same visit. To get files from our collection of BEEKEEPING FILES via Internet message attachments the first thing is to get the file list, you do that like this: to: getfile@beenet.com subject: files When you get the file list you retrieve the file you want like so: to: getfile@beenet.com subject: filename.zip or filename.[extension] The Wild Bee's BBS & Information system is sponsored by the sysop Andy Nachbaur, in Los Banos, CA., donations for the use of the system are not solicited, but will be excepted and can be sent to: 1522 Paradise Lane, Los Banos, California 93635 Wild Bee's is looking for a cooperate sponsors within the Beekeeping Industry to underwrite the costs and expansion of the system. Interested parties should contact the above, or call the bbs. Estimated needs are $500.00 per month for the 1st year.(FIRM) <-30-11-94> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 22:41:16 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: Bee Drift Over Distances, Lost Bees, Combining, Nets, Trucks In-Reply-To: <9411262314.AA25387@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> > > Some years ago, One of my undergraduate students, Quinn Carver, performed > just such an experiment. Working with a Montana migratory beekeeper, he shook > packages from colonies just delivered from California. He marked > thousands of bees with blue paint. He then drove down the highway > sprinkling bees out of his pickup truck. Along the highway were beeyards This started out as private email to Jerry, but, as is often the case, expanded into something more, so I'm posting it: Thanks for getting me closer to the source of the anecdote - probably the same 'legend' - changed in repetition, but still very recognisable, unless it is a replication of the original experiment. I wonder if he still has the paper. It would be of great interest to the list - and a most appropriate post at this point. I have a sneaking suspicion that when sacred cows get slaughtered on this list, the ideas will show up in the ABJ and research projects in the next while. There are many (silent) readers. Personally, I have little doubt that unless there is robbing in a yard, or other disturbance that causes elevated defensive behavior from colonies, that almost any *lost* bee will gain admission to almost any hive - related or unrelated - at almost any time. This applies to the domesticated bees we are keeping these days, and includes US, Canadian, NZ, and Auz stocks. In our management we never consider possible fighting. I haven't seen a serious case of rejection when combining hives for years now, either. I suppose it could be because I'm a better beekeeper now, and it wouldn't occur to me to combine at a 'wrong' time, but I did see it years ago in the fall, when poor judgement resulted in huge heaps of dead bees at the entrance. These days, we just combine bees holus bolus. Nor do we worry about drift back and forth between hives, except to ensure that individual hives are not depleted due to poor positioning in a yard. Re.: The ultimate in load screening - A few beekeepers around here are using vans - one or two tons - fully enclosed, with a roll-up back door and a power tailgate. I've played with the idea, and maybe will write more about the pros/cons later. I'm addicted to my boom loader and flat deck though, I use it for everything. Nets seem like a lot of trouble, but with more populated hiways and longer hauls, the safety they provide might pay off. W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 02:32:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: Wild Bee's BBS (209)826-8107 Subject: Added Value MO Honey originally in conference WN-BEENET on WILDBEES (WILD BEE'S BBS) search: HONEY ADDED VALUE Mail Order As a producer of a speciality crop like honey the opportunity to add value to ones' production is limited, but today the future is cloudy with the winds of change, and one of these changes has been an increased competition for bulk market share from off shore producers. The small to mid-size beekeeper can look to other work to increase the value of his production. This is not a new idea but one that merits more study. A few years ago I attended a meeting of world wide honey producers and was fascinated by the reports from Germany that at the time honey was considered by many as essential in the diet for a normal healthy life, and the the main retail outlets for honey was the drug store, and/or mail order. Well honey reached our chain drug stores maybe 20-25 years ago, but it is sold mostly as a lost leader to attract people (older) to the store, and the quality has not always been good at any price. But still it has become an important market for packers on the west coast who fight to see who can wholesale honey the cheapest. Hardly the added value market we as producer maybe looking for. The mail order business is another story, I don't know off hand if its been that good for any honey producers in it, and know of at least one who lost a lot of money after several years trying to capitalize on a well known name. But I would like to report on one approach that at least looks interesting and attractive in the way it is presented in a up scale catalog for personal and business gifts. The company is called RENT MOTHER NATURE and if you want to send for their 53 page catalog the address is: 52 New Street, P.O. Box 380193 Cambridge, MA 02238-0193 (800) 296-9445 Customer Service According to what Bob MacArthur writes in the very excellent quality catalog they "lease" you MAPLE TREES, BEE HIVES, APPLE, CITRUS, COFFEE, and LOBSTER POTS, plus a few more. You receive "beautifully calligraphed and personalized Lease Document (suitable for framing), a series of Progress Reports advising of actual growing conditions, and much more..."putting culture back into agriculture" MacArthur writes. In the end you get at least 20 ounces of fresh honey per lease, and a promise for "more if your bees are extra-industrious!". The catalog if full of different options and items of honey, beeswax candles, soaps and the like along with the fruit, nuts and so on. The added value is in the mail advertising, PROMOTION of the abstract idea of leasing a bee hive or fruit tree, and in the attractive packaging, ease of ordering via 800 numbers, credit cards and the fact that this catalog is more then likely sent only to areas and people who can afford to shop for the quality offered and are not so concerned with price like you and I. After getting passed the sticker shock, the prices are not that bad if you get passed the sticker shock. Some examples: Single Flavor Honey Lease with 3 reports $15.95 Two-Flavor with 5 reports $29.95 Four Flavor with 9 reports $57.95 By the Way the flavors are Raspberry, Blueberry, Thyme, and Cranberry Bog. Price for Honey alone shipped in a "hand-crafted wooden box" and the Lease for additional flavor, all the above is: $35.95, $49.95, and $77.95.. all has a "Guarantee of a share of the entire output of the hive--at least 20 ounces", no additives, pure, and natural, plus the standard litany of the back to nature crowd. You can also by Honey by the pound, any 3 flavors at $14.95, and any four at $17.95. They also sell Honey-Buckwheat Pancake Mix, 24 oz for $4.50. Well you get the idea so I will end this before it looks like a commercial, which it is not, only intended to show how one man has added value to what he may produce. The gifts run up to $750.00 for the "Endless Bounty Lease" sent out monthly. ttul Andy- OH! I forgot you can Lease a Sheep too, two get you a 80 x 90 blanket for $249.00 and if you Lease a Lamb you get a 40 x 45 baby blanket for $69.95 __ __ / \ / \ \ \ / / \^+^/ \ \ / \|/ (O O)=|Wild Bees @ @ \_/ \_BBS_ / `--> andy@beenet.com ------------------oOO-(_)-OOo--------Y-------------------------------------- *Note what is written above is not a representation of anymore then what is stated in the catalog, and does not represent a claim for value received for money spent. DO NOT EXPECT any sympathy from me if you were to buy something because of what you read here and were not satisfied. But if you do try it, or start your own mail order Honey business let us know how great it was, or how bad. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 21:31:58 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee Drift Over Distances, Lost Bees, Combining, Nets, Trucks In-Reply-To: from "Allen Dick 546-2588" at Nov 26, 94 10:41:16 pm Hi: Andy is upset with me for suggesting nets. I agree, for short hauls it is a mute point. Lots of effort and additional cost, when the bees obviously drift and visit nearby yards, etc. My comment and the Montana beekeepers failed resolution - note I said resolution "to advise" netting, not law, reg, requirement - just advise - had to do with semi-loads running across the state. MT does not require nets and I90 runs right through the middle of the state with beekeepers moving long distance hauls from CA to MN. Many of those trucks can be seen sitting in truck stops without nets - and MT beekeepers have apiaries nearby. Seems reasonable not to drive through a state adding more bees all along, especially since some of our non-migratory beekeepers still have low levels or little evidence of mites. Seems to me this is simple professional courtesy. Seems also to make some sense. As for Allen's closed van, when the University is short of trucks - which is most of the time and mine is tied up - usually moving bees, we have had to use a Travelall or a stretch passenger van. Not my idea of a fun time, driving down the highway with the "leakers" in the cab with you. No thanks, I bought a King Cab pickup just so that I, the crew, and our fragile computer gear stay nice and dry and separated from our friends riding in the box in back. Cheers, Jerry P.S. I will see if I can run Quinn to ground, he was heading to graduate school last spring. If I find him and his paper, I will ask about posting it to the net. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 10:06:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Duane W. Bailey" Subject: Re: Added Value MO Honey >originally in conference WN-BEENET on WILDBEES (WILD BEE'S BBS) > >search: HONEY ADDED VALUE Mail Order > > As a producer of a speciality crop like honey the opportunity to >add value to ones' production is limited, but today the future is >cloudy with the winds of change, and one of these changes has been >an increased competition for bulk market share from off shore producers. > > The small to mid-size beekeeper can look to other work to increase >the value of his production. This is not a new idea but one that merits >more study. A few years ago I attended a meeting of world wide honey >producers and was fascinated by the reports from Germany that at the >time honey was considered by many as essential in the diet for a normal >healthy life, and the the main retail outlets for honey was the drug >store, and/or mail order. > > Well honey reached our chain drug stores maybe 20-25 years ago, but >it is sold mostly as a lost leader to attract people (older) to the >store, and the quality has not always been good at any price. But still >it has become an important market for packers on the west coast who >fight to see who can wholesale honey the cheapest. Hardly the added >value market we as producer maybe looking for. > > The mail order business is another story, I don't know off hand >if its been that good for any honey producers in it, and know of at >least one who lost a lot of money after several years trying to >capitalize on a well known name. But I would like to report on one >approach that at least looks interesting and attractive in the way it >is presented in a up scale catalog for personal and business gifts. > > The company is called RENT MOTHER NATURE and if you want to send >for their 53 page catalog the address is: > > 52 New Street, P.O. Box 380193 > Cambridge, MA 02238-0193 > (800) 296-9445 Customer Service > > According to what Bob MacArthur writes in the very excellent >quality catalog they "lease" you MAPLE TREES, BEE HIVES, APPLE, CITRUS, >COFFEE, and LOBSTER POTS, plus a few more. > > You receive "beautifully calligraphed and personalized Lease >Document (suitable for framing), a series of Progress Reports advising >of actual growing conditions, and much more..."putting culture back >into agriculture" MacArthur writes. In the end you get at least 20 ounces >of fresh honey per lease, and a promise for "more if your bees are >extra-industrious!". > > The catalog if full of different options and items of honey, beeswax >candles, soaps and the like along with the fruit, nuts and so on. The >added value is in the mail advertising, PROMOTION of the abstract idea >of leasing a bee hive or fruit tree, and in the attractive packaging, >ease of ordering via 800 numbers, credit cards and the fact that this >catalog is more then likely sent only to areas and people who can afford >to shop for the quality offered and are not so concerned with price >like you and I. > > After getting passed the sticker shock, the prices are not that >bad if you get passed the sticker shock. Some examples: > > Single Flavor Honey Lease with 3 reports $15.95 > Two-Flavor with 5 reports $29.95 > Four Flavor with 9 reports $57.95 > >By the Way the flavors are Raspberry, Blueberry, Thyme, and Cranberry >Bog. Price for Honey alone shipped in a "hand-crafted wooden box" and >the Lease for additional flavor, all the above is: > > $35.95, $49.95, and $77.95.. all has a "Guarantee of a share of the >entire output of the hive--at least 20 ounces", no additives, pure, and >natural, plus the standard litany of the back to nature crowd. You can >also by Honey by the pound, any 3 flavors at $14.95, and any four at >$17.95. They also sell Honey-Buckwheat Pancake Mix, 24 oz for $4.50. > > I, too, recently saw this catalog and was initially enthusiastic. To my reading, however, they seem to imply that you get the full production of a bee colony, apple tree, or whatever, and the quantities are ridiculous. (20 oz. of honey from a hive is a good example.) I would think anyone wanting to try this would want to be completely straight-forward about what was being paid for. Duane W. Bailey Amherst College ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 17:16:06 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Athlete's foot > Gordon, > > I hope you're not suggesting that the best treatment for athlete's > foot is destruction by fire! > > -- > Malcolm Roe After all this time I am starting to wonder :-) More seriously, I'm told that vinegar works -- that's acetic acid isn't it? I'm sure I have some somewhere :-) Thanks also to others with my welfare in mind _but_, this isn't a beekeeping topic so any more mail direct to me please. regards, -- Gordon Scott Gordon@apis.demon.co.uk 100332,3310 on CompuServe Newsletter Beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ditto Beekeeper, Kendo Sandan, sometime sailor. Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG22 5HP, UK For any given problem there is a simple and elegant solution - and it's wrong. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:25:18 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Hough Subject: RE>Re: Added Value MO Honey >I, too, recently saw this catalog and was initially enthusiastic. To my >reading, however, they seem to imply that you get the full production of a >bee colony, apple tree, or whatever, and the quantities are ridiculous. (20 >oz. of honey from a hive is a good example.) I would think anyone wanting >to try this would want to be completely straight-forward about what was >being paid for. > >Duane W. Bailey >Amherst College My experience was very similar to Duane's, an initial excitement about a novel marketing concept, but then a sinking feeling as I read the fine print. However, to be fair to the catalog, please note the following: 1) It is an interesting marketing idea - one that I have not seen anywhere else. 2) From a financial standpoint - if they can get this kind of money for 20 oz. of honey, I think it is pretty amazing. Sure beats 50 cents/pound on the wholesale market! This catalog may be the epitome of "slick marketing". They are selling a lot more than just honey - it is the whole package of "status reports", "owning" your own peice of the country (less important to those of us living in non-urban areas!), etc. On the flip side, some things that turn me off about this operation: 1) I don't believe that the catalog makes any promises regarding the time span for which you get "the total production of a colony". Note that they offer four flavors of honey - this implies some migratory style management (moving bees so that they will produce the desired type of honey). As many beekeepers know, this is rough on the bees, and significantly reduces the amount of surplus honey the bees produce. 2) I have heard some less than flattering stories about this operation. I won't elaborate here, as I have no desire to disparage the proprieter in public. Having written that, I'm sure that there are less than flattering stories out there about many businesses in operation today. But in this case, I am unwilling patronize this business myself. (Besides, I've got more than enough honey already!!!) Rick Hough, a hobby beekeeper from Northeastern Massachusetts rshough@tasc.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 21:50:42 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau <73642.244@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: AFB spores in honey Opinions were expressed on the Bee-L wether drugs should be used or not to control AFB. Every beekeeper has to make his own choice according to his personnal situation. My preferrnce goes to the no-drugs approach whenever possible. The problem in North America is that the drug option is so common that no efforts have been deployed to develop alternative controls. It would be nice to be able to know easily wether spores are present in your colonies and at what level. Dr H. Shimanuki published a few years ago a paper on how to assess the presence of spores in samples of honey. Here in Quebec a group of 17 professionnal beekeepers (Club Api) had this year their honey tested for the presence of AFB spores using Dr Shimahuki's method. The results indicated that some samples did not contain any spores and other contained some. They did not show what was the relative number of spores in each sample. Beekeepers with "no spores" honey had no AFB problems. Where spores were found in the honey, some beekeepers were experiencing AFB problems but not all of them. Some beekeepers not using drugs and whose honey contained spores had very healthy hives (in appearance). The method we used is not a simple and it lacks precision. We heard that counting spores in honey is practiced in Australia. Anybody knows where we could find information about this? A precise analysis of AFB spores in honey could be a very useful tool. It could tell a beekeeper what his personnal risk factor is with AFB. He could then adapt his management to the situation. It could be used by a beekeeper using drugs but wishing to switch safely to the no drug approach. It could eventualy be used by bee inspection services to target the visits of inspectors in the context of limited budgets. ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ' JEAN-PIERRE CHAPLEAU eleveur de reines/bee breeder ' ' Chapleau & Courtemanche enr. vice-president of the Canadian Honey Council' ' 1282, rang 8, St-Adrien, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 ' ' 73642.244@compuserve.com tel./phone (819) 828-3396 ' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 21:34:51 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick 546-2588 Subject: Re: I dream of cube vans . . . . In-Reply-To: <9411280430.AA33398@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> On Sun, 27 Nov 1994, Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > Hi: Andy is upset with me for suggesting nets. I agree, for short hauls > it is a mute point. Lots of effort and additional cost, when the bees > obviously drift and visit nearby yards, etc. Once we all have both mites, it will matter less, I suppose. snip snip . . . > As for Allen's closed van, when the University is short of trucks - which > is most of the time and mine is tied up - usually moving bees, we have > had to use a Travelall or a stretch passenger van. Not my idea of a fun > time, driving down the highway with the "leakers" in the cab with you. > No thanks, I bought a King Cab pickup just so that I, the crew, and our > fragile computer gear stay nice and dry and separated from our friends > riding in the box in back. Actually, I was referrring to the cube vans - the ones with a cubical box and a roll up back door. Some have power tailgates designed as a platform to lift 1000 lbs or so from the ground up to deck height so that it can be carted in and out easily. The floor is low because there are wheel wells inside - and the cab is totally isolated. Things don't have to be tied on and bees don't escape because it is dark in there. I'm thinking of getting one. My neighbour had one before he retired. He never used it for pulling honey though because it didn't carry enough. For that I've been using a 12,000 lb flat deck trailer in conjunction with a one ton Ford - total payload 26 drums full of honey , or equivalent. It's enogh for a day's work, usually. A van and trailer would do the same, methinks. Besides the inevitable trail of lost bees from an open flatdeck , dust is a problem and things have to be tied on. The truck must be unloaded on return or housed inside, and rain is a problem, Therefore I dream of a cube van and an enclosed trailer or two. The boys like loading the trailer (a low one) using handcarts better than using the boom loader on the flat deck, believe it or not. Several van trailers could be loaded and left sitting in a yard for pickup when convenient - even by a small person with a pickup truck at night in the pouring rain several days later - with no ill effects. Maybe for interest sake I should mention at this point that a few years back I sent a load of bees in hives to Arizona. It filled a 45 foot *reefer* completely. The month was November and they left snow and cold weather here to go through Vegas and into AZ where temps were 90 plus. As far as I know, they arrived just fine. We had to have vents in the front - as well as the small ones at the back - and the reefers ran hard. I think I'll get a van - or two. Nets seem to me to be dirty and a hassle, and not entirely effective. Besides people can still see the bees. With a van you can paint a picture of the kind of of bees people like on the side if you want to be conspicuous - you know - the kind with a human face and a big smile :) The little old guy at a corner store way out in the country complained to me a while ago about beekeepers stopping for soda and leaving bees when they go. Seems he was stung a fair bit and had to close up early one day. That bothers me. W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588 Email: dicka@CUUG.AB.CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 23:09:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jamie Friddle Subject: Female Beekeeper In Texas Greetings: I'm a Dallas-based journalist working on a story about the cultivation of honey and the care of bees. I need to find a *female* beekeeper close to the Dallas area whom I can spend some time with, interview. Can anyone recommend someone? Jamie Friddle Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:15:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: AFB spores in honey Jean-Pierre Several people have developed or demonstrated methods to assess AFB by means other than hive symptoms. Mark Goodwin and Cliff van Eaton in New Zealand have a method of detection using bacterial cultures, that can use non-symptomatic adult bees or brood, honey or pollen as a sample source. The basic method is preparation of an extract from the sample, "pasteurization" to kill vegetative bacteria, plating onto a nutrient plate, incubation for 3 days, then observation and counting of the resulting B.larvae colonies. Adult bee samples give a range of B.larvae colony counts up to about 100 per plate, before hive symptoms are common. This provides a "grey zone" of AFB "infected" hives, that might be segregated and receive special surveillance and management to prevent "breakdown" and spread to other hives. In a management system that already has a low exposure to AFB, this method could offer a sensitive means of detecting the "smoke before the flame". It would be interesting to try this with a management system based on antibiotic suppression. Would there be a high level of spores everywhere, just waiting for a hole in the antibiotic armour? Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:32:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Gates 604 549-5580 Subject: Re: AFB spores in honey In New Zealand, MAFF staff have conducted a series of seminars using spore counts to predict incidence of AFB. Clff Van Eaton or Nick Wallingford, are you out there? Would you enlighten us further? John Gates, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 4607, 23rd. St. Vernon, B.C. Canada, V1T 4K7 Ph:( 604) 549-5580 fax:(604) 549-5488 Internet:JGates@galaxy.gov.bc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 10:01:55 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: I dream of cube vans . . . . In-Reply-To: from "Allen Dick 546-2588" at Nov 28, 94 09:34:51 pm Some of our high-line beekeepers run Reefers to CA for packages each year. Roll up the back door and it looks like a library - row upon row of racks holding nicely spaced packages. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:39:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: AFB antibiotic strategies A few points that have not emerged in the recent interesting discussions: Dr. H. Shimanuki reports that B.larvae collected from current (1993) infected hives (U.S. I suppose, but I don't know how wide was the sampling) was NOT more resistant to oxytetracycline, than B. larvae from scales collected in 1924. (it's no reason for undue complacency, but until other evidence is presented, it's a measure of the current situation). There have been comments about EFB infected hives that didn't respond to oxytetracycline. I had one like that many years ago, and after a reasonable period of treatment (3 weeks) I thought I'd better destroy this "resistant strain". I took a closer look and noticed that, although there were still larval remains, there were no recently-dead larvae. That didn't solve the dilema, but then I happened to pick up a swarm too small for self-sufficiency, added it to the weakened EFB hive, and the next day, there was no sign of the EFB. Down with non-hygienic stock! The "When Bugs Fight Back" compendium of articles by Pullitzer prize winner Mike Toner from the Atlanta Chronicle, makes some interesting and perhaps justifiably alarming points. It's still journalism,( oops I didn't mean that to sound disparaging, it's just that some tough digging would be necessary to decide how alarmed one should be). The phone order worked fine, there was no charge for the article. Thanks to Tom Sanford. Allen: the woman who impressed you was Dr. Christine Peng from U.California Davis. One of her points was that oxytetracycline has sublethal effects on brood development (perhaps slightly lengthening the development period). She had encouraging results against B. larvae, from another antibiotic called tylosin. (Linoleic acid is also "waiting in the wings" against AFB). Strategies for sustainable management of AFB and varroa (and other bee diseases) could certainly use some more consideration, better sooner than later. Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:47:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Gates 604 549-5580 Subject: Re: I dream of cube vans . . . . Using cube vans or detachable van boxes on flatdecks to move bees was a common practice in the days when hundreds of thousands of packages were shipped from the US to the Canadian west every spring. As recently as a couple of years ago I heard of beekeepers trying to get rid of those vans, for ridiculously low prices. Most of the units were well ventilated and some even had sprinkling systems to keep the bees cool on the long hot runs from California. Perhaps you could find one of those, Allen. Lost bees at truck stops and along major routes seem to be a major cause of Varroa spread in B.C. The monitoring we have done in the last couple of years has detected isolated Varroa infestations along highways used by migratory beekeepers travelling between Alberta and B.C. destinations. A lot of the infestations were found in yards closest to truck stops. In many cases we have found no other sign of Varroa in the area. We've also had an increase in complaints from Truck stops about clusters of bees hanging on lamp stands or flying around building lights at night after the bee trucks have moved on. A few stinging incidents have occurred. Truck stop personnel and customers are usually not amused. Not all migratory beekeepers are to blame. Some are conscientious and do a good jog of enclosing their bees, limit their stays at truck stops and travel as much as possible after dark. Others don't seem to give a damn and chuckle at the commotion they cause. Migration is a legitimate part of beekeeping here. Some Alberta beekeepers take advantage of the relatively mild winters in B.C. and earn some pollination income from fruit crops while here in the spring. Some B.C. beekeepers move their hives to Alberta for the potentially larger honey crops. Ministries of Agriculture in both provinces cooperate in a system of inspection that is easy for beekeepers to comply with and offers a chance of disease control for cooperators. Unfortuneately, the few that do not comply cause problems for everyone. If Africanized bees become more of an issue in the U.S. I'm afraid the public up here won't put up with swarms of bees hanging around gas stations. The issue will then be one of public health rather than bee disease control and beekeepers' freedom of movement could be sharply curtailed. As you said at the end of your last message Allen, this bothers me. Regards, John Gates, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 4607, 23rd. St. Vernon, B.C. Canada, V1T 4K7 Ph:( 604) 549-5580 fax:(604) 549-5488 Internet:JGates@galaxy.gov.bc.ca PS. how's your snowboarding coming along? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 17:32:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jane Power Subject: Re: Strange drones. Just a bit to add to the discussion on drones is the late fall and winter....I know I'm late; I've been swarmed with marking :) That should read "in the late fall and winter." My friend who has 50 hive, recently she has downsized from 200, offered me comfort when I phoned her to ask about these "drones of November." She said that some years the drones hang around longer than others, and as well, she has fed bees in February and seen drones. The hives, she said, were healthly and good producers. This year I have healthy hives, good production, healthy queens and drones squeezing their way through the winter door. Some were booted in September. Many remain. More mysteries from the bee-zone. Cheers, Jane Power thepowerthatbees