========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:44:13 -0500 Reply-To: aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin R. Palm" Subject: B-MAIL?? Hello all, Can somone tell me what happened to B-Mail? I looked forward toading about beekeeping in the UK, even though I'm in the US. Is the newsletter still being published? Thanks for any assistance!! Kevin Palm -- Kevin R. Palm || Beekeeper (1 Yugo hive, 1st year) Grafton, Ohio || Red Dwarf, Babylon 5, NYPD Blue, ER fan (25 miles SW of Cleveland) || Recovering Star Trek fan aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu || ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:16:40 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Queen Evaluation Bonjour a` tous ! Hi Bee-lovers ! On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 Ian Stuart McLean wrote : > What you say is probably true but Supercedure is also an inheritable trait. > Here in the UK the British Isles Bee Breeders Association (BIBBA), who > have a web site now (Address???) make a feature of breeding queens that > supercede. They are very useful in reducing colony swarming , which is a > problem in the UK. In the french area and mostly in Belgium we know the term ** anecbalic ** to point out the bee strains with queen supercedure without swarming. This term was create by H. Wallon (MD) in the end '40s- '50s from the greek : a = no + necbalein = to throw out => superceding but no swarming Here in Belgium, almost all the beebeekers know and use the anecbalic term to caracterize some big colonies which years after years are replacing their queens without any swarming. This supercedure occurs generally either in early spring or late in the summer but always out of the swarming time. It's very important to be attentive and not to destroy too rapidly the queen cells one is seeing at this time. Generally, the bees let the old queen in the cluster till the young is laying eggs : it's not rare to see the 2 queens laying together. In my mind, it's a lethal character for the wild(or feral) bees but very interesting for the beekeeper who know and use it in their beekeeping. This colonies are not easy to multiply and some works have been published in the '50s, but it seems to me, only in french. Jean-Marie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:12:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov 1995 Allen, Re. Colony winter insulation Tibor Szabo did quite a bit of work on colony winter insulation in the early 1980's. You may get in touch with him at U of Guelph. Paul van Westendorp Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:30:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re winter wraps It seems to me that winter wraps are one of those things that can vary a great deal between operations in an area, let alone different climates. There are compensating variations in management and equipment that make consideration of the wrap (in isolation) more difficult. One practice that I would like to hear more about, is the use of a thin (8 mm?) insulation consisting of 2 polyethylene bubble sheets, bonded with aluminum on the outside. It makes a pretty durable, flexible and compact insulation that is claimed to have an insulation R value of 12, the same as 4 inch thick batts of glass fiber or rock wool. It's more expensive (50 cents per square foot?) but should last longer and be much more convenient to use and store. I've been told there are some (a few hundred) in use (for 4 packs) in the Alberta Peace, and that they were OK last winter. Have Allen or Eric heard any more details about them? Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:39:36 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re winter wraps > One practice that I would like to hear more about, is the use of a thin > (8 mm?) insulation consisting of 2 polyethylene bubble sheets, bonded > with aluminum on the outside. It makes a pretty durable, flexible and > compact insulation that is claimed to have an insulation R value of 12, > the same as 4 inch thick batts of glass fiber or rock wool. It's more > expensive (50 cents per square foot?) but should last longer and be much > more convenient to use and store. I've been told there are some (a few > hundred) in use (for 4 packs) in the Alberta Peace, and that they were > OK last winter. > > Have Allen or Eric heard any more details about them? Jean Pierre was doing something with this stuff too, I think. I haven't heard anything yet. I think the cheapest, and most ubiquitous wrap - other than homemade 6 mil plastic and fibreglas wraps are the Inland plastic wraps from Inland Plastics in Drumheller, Alberta. They are also very tough and long lasting. I just bought another 110 of them - enough for the 440 hives that had received my alternate treatment last year. They seem to work well and last forever - some of mine are 15+ years old and are just like new in spite of often being left out in the summer sometimes and laid on by cattle. They are a trifle costly - $31 Cdn (about $23US) for a wrap that covers a four pack of hives. And you still need a bag of top insulation and plywood sheet on top (1/3 sheet) I am convinced that they handle thebeehive sides just fine. Over time I've concluded that more than just one layer of plastic is required for best results. Even though the hives generally survive with little or no side insulation, they are not as good as those with R5 or so. I guess the real question that I was trying to answer was - how much insulation is *needed* on top? We presently vary from R5 to R25. I'm presently making up top bags and wonder if I am putting more than necessary on top because I am going up to 5 layers of kodel (R5 each). It seems to me that there must be an optimal amount that ensures maximum survival and maximum health in the spring weighed against feed consumption and cost, labour, etc. I've seen hives so hot that they were hanging out in January at minus 10. A friend built an insulated cabinet that held 18 hives in drawers (frames had to be transferred) the whole thing was 8 X 4 X 6 feet and the bees were too hot for the space. He had thought he had the wintering problem solved, but I guess not. It seems to me that if the bees are too warm, they will be too active, if too cold, they will be unable to perform necessary activities and perish or succumb to diseases. To pile on the insulation and then provide a 3/8 by 2 inch hole at the front as many do would seem to be contradictory - but then I do put on a hat and still breathe actively thru my nose (thus losing heat), but find the hat very comforting. I just wonder how thick that hat must be before it is too hot, or the added thickness provides no benefit. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:55:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Queen Evaluation > >On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 Ian Stuart McLean wrote : > >> What you say is probably true but Supercedure is also an inheritable trait. >> Here in the UK the British Isles Bee Breeders Association (BIBBA), who make a feature of breeding queens that supercede. They are very useful in reducing colony swarming , which is a problem in the UK. >Jean-Marie Van Dyck wrote Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:16:40> >Here in Belgium, almost all the beebeekers know and use the anecbalic >term to caracterize some big colonies which years after years are >replacing their queens without any swarming. This supercedure occurs While I agree, in my opinion supercedure has a number of disadvantages. It usually means the bees are unhappy with the current Queen, whether it is early or late season is immaterial. Either way the hive is in decline as the current queen is not laying to capacity. When I breed queens and send them to the "dancehall" for mating I want to know which drones she met up with.So to my mind, I want to know the pedigree of my queens. Scrubs of unknown origin cause terrible problems. Apart from changing a weak or failing queen how does supercedure prevent swarming. The usual reasons for swarming are I believe, Congestion, Too much heat, weak or old queen, honeybound, all of which are the keepers problem. Congestion......give more space Too much heat ......ventilate Weak or old .......requeen Honeybound.......more boxes. So where does supercedure fit into this picture?? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:28:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Supersedure as a Good Thing Dave Eyre asks where supersedure fits into the beekeeping picture as a Good Thing. You can think of fall requeening as forced supersedure with a known queen. In both cases you end up with a nice, young queen going into the winter. The primary difference is that in one case you've spent some money and time to put in something with (hopefully) known characteristics, while in the other case you didn't invest any money and not as much time (you still have to find and mark the new queen), and you don't know what you are getting for awhile. This doesn't mean that you are going to get a bad queen on supesedure. For example, I personally use swarms to start new colonies. They nearly always supesede the swarm queen sometime during the summer, and I always have kept the new queen for those colonies. I have yet to be disappointed with the results. Incidently, the biggest "turkey" queens I have had were expensive pedigreed queens from a highly reccommended breeder (I won't mention names). Remember that for most of us, the area drones either come from other managed colonies, or from feral colonies that have held up to the mites and adopted to the local conditions. Changing subjects to hive wrapping: We in Maryland don't wrap colonies for the winter, in fact we have been taught that wrapping causes moisture buildup and other problems. Judging from the recent postings, I gather in Canada wrapping is a common practice. I suppose there is a "wrap line", north of which wrapping is advisable. Any thoughts as to where this line is? W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: new winter wrap I am using personnally the new AIR BUBBLE MATERIAL Kerry Clark is talking about. I used it for the first time last winter. I packed 50 hives as singles using it as side insulation. I used 3 inches of styrofoam as top insulation. I did this trial on my own, thinking I was the only one on earth trying this new material for such a purpose. At the last CHC convention I was surprised to see a stand of a distributor of this new product promoting its use for winter packs! It seems like good ideas always sprout in more than one single ground! (I was going to say "fertile ground"!) The results of the 94-95 trial were good despite the fact that the colonies had been packed as singles. Only a few week colonies died during the winter but 5 other populous colonies ended up with drone layers queens wich I suspect to result from winter stress. (No more drone layers were found in my other 450 colonies that had been wintered indoors.) This fall I packed 108 colonies with the same material but as four packs this time. I still used the air bubble material as side insulation. I put individual pieces of 1 1/2 inche styrofoam on top of each hive and I covered each 4 pack with a 48" x 40" sheet of the air bubble insulation which I taped to the sides. The brand name of the material I used is ASTRO FOIL. Other brands exist. Its price went down from 0.75$ to 0.45$ can. per square foot within only one year. I think the claim for a R value of 12 is exagerated. ASTRO FOIL claims a value of 5 or a little over depending whether you use it with an air space or not. (These figures have to be verified: I cannot find the manufacturer's specification.) I think this is a GREAT MATERIAL. It is extremely light and easy to handle. It is clean. It does not absorb humidity. It is easily installed in the fall and easily removed in the spring. I suspect that it could be reused for many many years. It takes very little storage space. At the actual price of Astro Foil the cost of one four pack wrap is only 16$ can. (plus the cost of the styrofoam). Next year I plan to use a double thickness of Astro Foil as a top (no styrofoam). Kerry, I would like to know who tried it in the Peace river area. Do you know? Or maybe Ken Tuckey is listening and knows about this experiment. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder vice-president du Conseil canadien du miel / Vice-president of the Canadian Honey Council 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@praline.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:21:26 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: new winter wrap > I am using personally the new AIR BUBBLE MATERIAL > I think this is a GREAT MATERIAL. It is extremely light and easy to handle. > It is clean. It does not absorb humidity. It is easily installed in the > fall and easily removed in the spring. I suspect that it could be re-used > for many many years. It takes very little storage space. At the actual > price of Astro Foil the cost of one four pack wrap is only 16$ can. (plus > the cost of the styrofoam). Next year I plan to use a double thickness of > Astro Foil as a top (no styrofoam). I wonder if you are using upper entrances and, if so, of which type. I have been switching from using an inner cover with a slit of about 3/4 square inch area to a one inch auger hole below the hand-hold on the belief that it allows more heat to remain on the top bars. Experimentally, we have seen no advantage in survival or spring condition, but it also allows us to wrap with the telescoping summer lid on the hive - which is a huge labour saving - and I am planning to ultimately go to telescoping lids with R5 insulation built in for year round use. This is one of the reasons that I have been wondering how much insulation is required on top. I found that 1" styrofoam all around a double hive out here allowed for survival, however I did not repeat the experiments often enough and on a large enough scale to assure myself that I would commit my whole outfit to it. My father used that method for years on his hives in the Muskoka region of Ontario, and on hives he kept at Sudbury as well. Sudbury has winters that fairly closely resemble ours here, but Muskoka is considerably warmer and winter is shorter there. In those years, Muskoka had a lot of snow too. What works in one region may not work a few hundred miles north, and I am also acutely aware that winters vary in severity to the extent that one year's wintering success is virtually meaningless. A number of years results are crucial to ensuring that a method will not leave one virtually without bees some (rogue) year. Some years, no wrapping is needed, but another year that seems similar - in terms of human comfort - may well wipe out all hives that are not well insulated. Fall hive condition has a large effect on the need for insulation too. With a hive of live bees being worth $60 Cdn in the spring plus equipment, a saving of material and labour for wrapping is a small consideration - if the savings result in any additional loss of bees or condition - IMHO. One thing I am wondering also is: if there is any indication that more or less insulation affects the mite load in the spring? It willl be interesting to see how this new material proves itself and how well it lasts. BTW, Jean-Pierre,(or anyone else) have you heard any talk of beekeepers getting together to ski the BC Rockies this winter? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Supersedure as a Good Thing Bill Miller wrote: >This doesn't mean that you are going to get a bad queen on supesedure. For >example, I personally use swarms to start new colonies. They nearly always >supesede the swarm queen sometime during the summer, and I always have kept >the new queen for those colonies. I have yet to be disappointed with the >results. Points well taken. But at the same time you are breeding for the swarming trait, which to me is a trait I don't want to encourage! They always supercede the queen, so you are perpetuating undesirable traits. >Remember that for most of us, the area drones either come from other managed >colonies, or from feral colonies that have held up to the mites and adopted >to the local conditions. This is the point I was making, how can you breed better stock from unknown genetics. You wouldn't think of putting your prized race horse, to the local donkey, or would you??? Because all you'll get is an ass!! :-) >Changing subjects to hive wrapping: We in Maryland don't wrap colonies for >the winter, in fact we have been taught that wrapping causes moisture buildup >and other problems. Judging from the recent postings, I gather in Canada >wrapping is a common practice. I suppose there is a "wrap line", north of >which wrapping is advisable. Any thoughts as to where this line is? It would seem that line is about 50 miles north of Toronto. Talking to Toronto beekeepers they don't wrap but here in the snow belt we do. We get around 12ft of snow in an average winter, we have had 5ft so far and it is only just December, whereas Toronto only get about 3ft and milder temperatures. We usually get down to -30C in Jan-Feb, therefore wrapping is essential. We use a layer of tar paper(roofing felt) and one layer of blue styrene (it is used around foundations) inside the innercover. The blue is waterproof (the white takes up moisture). The use of a top entrance is imperative, or we would spend too much time digging them out, also it aids in ventilating the hive to remove any moisture. My experience tells me that, "Cold does not kill bees, dampness does" The Inuit have a saying "Stay warm and DRY". If you are wet under low temps, it will kill you. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 01:15:27 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: balder/Baldur Subject: Re: Supersedure as a Good Thing Bill comments... Judging from the recent postings, I gather in Canada >wrapping is a common practice. I suppose there is a "wrap line", north of >which wrapping is advisable. Any thoughts as to where this line is? > I'd like to know too. While I'm at 49 degrees North Latitude we have yet to get anything approaching a hard frost. Here on the Pacific coast the bees are kept inactive by rainyseason (and dearth) more than cold it appears. I've been noticing a fair number of dead bees being delivered to the hive entrance each week(did they drown?). Obviously they didn't freeze! I've placed a large old tarp loosely aroung the hive(2 deep brood and 2 shallow supers)leaving lots of room for air circulation and the front of the hive free. I topped the works with a heavy old window frame(3 x 2) that extends a foot over the front and keeps the entranceway a little drier than it would be otherwise. Any suggestions welcomed ...Stuart Grant Point Roberts, WA(49 degrees north---123 degrees west) ############################################################################ ######## "It is injustice I hate...not Normans!"---Sir Robin of Loxley #################################################################### ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Liz Day Subject: Re: Beekeepers' neighbor problems I do not have experience with bees and neighbors. But I have plenty of experience with just neighbors, in suburban areas. (Not so much problems with me, as problems I see between other people.) What I see is that people in suburbs can be really intolerant of anything different, and their complaints can make you miserable. Further, smaller town councils will make new rules prohibiting things (plastic lawn edging, satellite dishes, certain breeds of dogs, practically anything) if a few people complain. Further, even if your present neighbors don't care, they may move and new people move in who object. I honestly would abandon the whole idea of living in the suburbs if I wanted to do anything even slightly unusual on my land. Perhaps this is not do-able for the writer who asked, but I think it is the approach that is most likely of any to solve the problem. Jefferson is supposed to have said that no one should live close enough to hear his neighbor's dog bark (or bees buzz?) and it's true. God knows I've had enough! Liz Day LDAY@indy.net Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:36:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Liz Day Subject: Re: Neighbors say Beekeeping a "No no" I forgot to mention (on the slim chance that nobody already knows!) that people can be completely irrational about such things, no amount of facts or proof will have an affect on them. Liz Day LDAY@indy.net Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:24:56 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: new winter wrap > Allen, I am as concerned as you are about the right amount of top > insulation to use. You say you want to use the normal telescopic > lid during the winter. This what I did when I wrapped my hives as > singles but how can you use this lid if you pack by groups of four > hives? Well, a lot of the fellows out here, are going to telescoping lids with a 1 or 1 1/2 inch slab of styrofoam in the lid. The hives are pushed together, but the air gap of 1 1/2 inches remains between the hives themselves when the lids are tight together. They then wrap the hives up, not worrying about the fact that air can and does circulate up from under the wrap somewhat. Some do have a wooden strip on the sides and back of each floor that provides some seal and also serves to center the brood box on the floor during handling. Others have solid pallet/floors that disallow air flow. However - no matter how it is done - closed or open - the air space does not seem to affect success at all. This is counter-intuitive, isn't it? Barrie Termeer has been doing something similar with two hives side by side - facing south, except that he uses a garbage bag with R12 or R20 (can't remember) under his normal summer lid - right on top of the frames. He uses two 3/4 inch square by 12 inch long (as I recall) under the bags about 2/3 of the way from the front and back to lift the bag off the frames to allow for communication over the top bars and then wraps the back and east and west sides of the two hive group with a plastic wrap with R20? insulation. The black plastic extends around the front and covers completely. He has only the normal auger hole open for air. His wintering success is consistently excellent, and he is north of me - near Edmonton. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 07:04:10 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Supersedure as a Good Thing > Judging from the recent postings, I gather in Canada > >wrapping is a common practice. I suppose there is a "wrap line", north of > >which wrapping is advisable. Any thoughts as to where this line is? > > It would seem that line is about 50 miles north of Toronto. Talking to > Toronto beekeepers they don't wrap but here in the snow belt we do. Toronto is always warm because of the huge poulation and when it is snowing in Markham, it is often raining in TO. I bought some bees (125 hives) down south of London (ON) area some 20 years ago. They were wintered in singles - standard or jumbo. The hives were placed in wintering boxes, a sack was placed over the top bars and wood shavings were shovelled on top. A large wooden lid covered all. The lower entrance was all they had - a tunnel led out to a slit opening. The bees were absolutely beautiful and we could not find any dead in March when I first looked at them with the owner (BIll Glen). I also looked at some bees down further towards Niagara and the owner also wintered in similar boxes. Perhaps the climate has changed over the years and this is no longer necessary, but it was the norm even that far south in those days. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:07:19 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: DAVID FRIMSTON <100325.514@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov The address of BIBBBA as menioned by Ian McClean is http://www.millhouse.co.uk/bibba. I recommend that we support them fully in their great effort in the UK. David Frimston ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:38:02 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: reply As a new arrival to the Internet I have followed recent letters on supersedure and swarming with interest. It would appear that some beekeepers have succeeded in producing a strain which supersedes whilst the queen is still strong and the stock productive. In a beekeeping career (non-commercial) which started in 1930 ( I am now wearing out ) I, like many beginners, started with a swarm. I progressed from bees which swarmed regularly to non-swarming strains by selective breeding. I had dreams of bees which would regulate themselves. What I found was that in almost every case the stock dropped below the productivity level before the bees attempted to supersede. During experiments I allowed stocks to carry their queens to three, four and even five years before they decided to supersede. Some left it too late, ending up with a drone layer or the queen dying during a non-laying period. It soon became obvious that having got rid of swarming it was essential to requeen regularly, usually the second or third year. Whether it is lack of luck or lack of skill I cannot persuade my bees to look after themselves. Many are finding swarming a problem. It certainly is, especially where neighbours are concerned. Unfortunately too many start their beekeeping career, for economic reasons, with a swarm and then proceed to increase with swarm cells. Swarm queens are usually first class and it is a simple method. Such bees are programmed to swarm annually and no matter how much brood and super space you give them they will want to swarm. Today we are in control and swarming, once essential for survival, is now an anachronism but try telling the bees that. Luckily the urge to swarm varies widely and by careful selection of mother queens it is possible to reduce swarming to a very low level in a matter of five years. You must first find a stock which has not swarmed in at least three years. You then have something to work on. Alternatively go to a beekeeper for eggs or queens who has already reached that goal. If you wish for peaceful beekeeping may I humbly suggest to all beginners that you never, never use queens from swarm cells to stock your hives. S H P _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:17:24 -0500 Reply-To: Ian Stuart McLean Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Stuart McLean Subject: Re: TM resistance > >Ok, but what happens in the fall and winter, particularly in northern >climates. Are all of those mites in an old bee simply second generation >progeny (staying in the same host), or do mites transfer to older hosts >(become less picky at this time of year)? I don't know and can't say I >have seen any hard data on this one. Pettis has evidence of more than >one generation of mites in the same host. > >How about all those mites in the other tracheae, where did they come >from? Same host, another host, some of both? > >Makes a difference in the population modeling efforts. > There was some work reported not long ago in ABJ on transference of Acarapis woodi between mature bees in the winter cluster. I noted it because it contradicts the up to '4day > old' doctrine weve been brought up on. In the UK here I 'bought in' Acarine into my bees when expanding a few years ago. Fortunately I isolated them into one apiary. That winter the HTM bees died out and I have since had no trouble. Losses were over 50% but I prefered to see them go and breed from better bees. Yours Ian ianmac@lancsbk.win-uk.net - Northern Regional Bee Inspector, UK - Bee Curious phone/fax 01704 822831 snailmail 'Asland' Flash Lane, Rufford, Ormskirk, Lancs, L40 1SW - UK. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:12:57 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Re winter wraps In-Reply-To: <01HYAJ2RQAW690P0LC@mr.gov.bc.ca> from "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax" at Dec 1, 95 11:30:00 am Hi: I don't have any good information to convey except to say I use the foil bubble wrap on my indoor hives and on my roll-up garage door. It increased the temperature in my garage by about 5 degrees F as soon as I put it on. As for wraps outside - well, it will certainly block the wind and doesn't soak up water. However, its claim to R values is based on reflecting heat back in, which is why my attached garage gets warmer. Blocks drafts and bounces radiant heat back. Can't really say what it will do, but can guess what it won't do. It may trap moisture in the hive, it doesn't breathe at all. We've learned over the years in our somewhat moist climate that particle board, plastic hives, plastic wrap, end up holding moisture in the hive. Top ventilation may not suffice. After all, a cluster in cold weather isn't fanning. I would think the bees want dead air around them for insulation. The foil will not act like a black box on sunny days. It will bounce the sun's heat away from the hive, not absorb it like black roofing felt. In our area, those who wrap usually concentrate on a black cover. Seems like we need to warm the bees up during our January thaw so that the cluster breaks and can move to honey stores. If they stay tightly clustered for too long, they starve in place with nearby food going to waste. So, it may depend on where you live. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:33:21 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: tracheal mite resistance In-Reply-To: <01HY8ZVUGSQO90NKM7@mr.gov.bc.ca> from "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax" at Nov 30, 95 08:09:00 am > > It shouldn't surprise anyone that selection of bees for tracheal mite > resistance, in its detail, is not as simple as indicated> > We did several generations of selection (using the new bee mark and > retrieve method) and crossing in isolated yards, then tested the results > on a whole colony basis. (The simultaneous introduction controls to a > great extent, for Jerry Bromenshenk's concern about variation in time of > year: the host colony is what it is, for all lines. Ranking indicates a > difference in the line's susceptibility). That was an important test. > The mites in the host colony had a great choice in bees to infest, a > real smorgasbord. If a particular line was slightly unattractive, it > might be ignored (suggesting high resistance). In an individual colony, > however, mites don't have such a choice. (You might never eat mutton and > brussels sprouts at a smorgasbord, but you wouldn't go hungry if they > were all you had.. OK you get the point. I lost my appetite too). > Our observations of the correlation of "resistant" ranking of marked > bees, and relatively low mite populations in colonies, indicated that it > was a good measure. (Medhat Nasr did a larger test in Ontario and found > the same thing). > > We haven't had the problem of great variability of tracheal mite > populations mentioned by Dr. Bromenshenk. Generally mite counts in > specific colonies changed on a trend which could be measured (and > distinguished bewteen colonies> As per usual, Kerry has good information to convey. His comment that they went from monthly to 2 month surveys prompts me to say you will get a much better idea of the dynamics of the mite by spacing out the surveys. Also, if you do find resistance, mite levels should stay lower, and the oscillations we saw should not be as great. But I'm not talking about resistant bees - far from it. And, lots of folks in the NW thought they had taken their hits and now had resistant bees, but the T-mite counts over the last two winters indicates that is not the case. The enormous swings we see were in our bees, Tucson bees, and you can see the same in several published literature reports if you go to the raw data and plot it. So, I'm not convinced that one point in time surveys are of any use unless you know you have resistant bees. And, I think we really do have more than one type of mite, but that's hard to prove. Are your resistant bees resistant to different strains of mite, or only to the one(s) in your area? Cheers Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:37:45 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ken Black Subject: Re: reply Hello Sid, I was very interested in your article and as a relative new comer I would be grateful if you could advice me as to where I could get some eggs or queens in early 96. The stocks I have are agressive and a couple are from swarms. Ken Black Bay Tree Cottage, Fritwell, Bicester, Oxon OX6 9QF At 18:38 03/12/95 GMT, you wrote: >As a new arrival to the Internet I have followed recent letters on >supersedure and swarming with interest. It would appear that some >beekeepers have succeeded in producing a strain which supersedes whilst the >queen is still strong and the stock productive. In a beekeeping career >(non-commercial) which started in 1930 ( I am now wearing out ) I, like many >beginners, started with a swarm. I progressed from bees which swarmed >regularly to non-swarming strains by selective breeding. I had dreams of >bees which would regulate themselves. What I found was that in almost every >case the stock dropped below the productivity level before the bees >attempted to supersede. During experiments I allowed stocks to carry their >queens to three, four and even five years before they decided to >supersede. Some left it too late, ending up with a drone layer or the queen >dying during a non-laying period. It soon became obvious that having got >rid of swarming it was essential to requeen regularly, usually the second or >third year. Whether it is lack of luck or lack of skill I cannot persuade my >bees to look after themselves. >Many are finding swarming a problem. It certainly is, especially where >neighbours are concerned. Unfortunately too many start their beekeeping >career, for economic reasons, with a swarm and then proceed to increase with >swarm cells. Swarm queens are usually first class and it is a simple >method. Such bees are programmed to swarm annually and no matter how much >brood and super space you give them they will want to swarm. Today we are >in control and swarming, once essential for survival, is now an anachronism >but try telling the bees that. Luckily the urge to swarm varies widely and >by careful selection of mother queens it is possible to reduce swarming to a >very low level in a matter of five years. You must first find a stock which >has not swarmed in at least three years. You then have something to work >on. Alternatively go to a beekeeper for eggs or queens who has already >reached that goal. If you wish for peaceful beekeeping may I humbly suggest >to all beginners that you never, never use queens from swarm cells to stock >your hives. S H P >_________________________________________________________________ >Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk >36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com >Alresford >Hants SO24 9HF >England > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:13:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Keith A. Smith" Subject: Moisture in the hive To all beekeepers - Has anyone in the honey/beekeeping business tried using a dehydrator/dessicant system in thier hives? I thought of using a dehydrator/dessicant system to force dried air into the hive. This would be via a tube hooked up to the deydrator, I would place the dehydrator on a timer to come on every 5-10 minutes on the hour, every hour or so. This dehydrator could supply several hives via a manafold. Would it be cost effective to do something like this? Would the forced dried air displace/exchange the air in the hive to reduce moisture build up? Has any university done studies on this? Feedback welcome. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:23:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: varroa in Q cells? Does anyone know of research done on the incidence of varroa infestation of queen cells produced in varroa infested hives? D. DeJong in Morse and Nowogrodzki 1990 H B Pests Predators and Dis, says "Generally, cells with queen larvae are not entered (by varroa), although varroa have been observed in queen cells in heavily infested colonies." I realize that queen cells, with a development time of about 16 days, represent an environment with no possibility of varroa reproducing, and should therefore be very unattractive to varroa; but does anyone have information about how certain is the absence of varroa in Q cells? The Q cells are quite different from other brood cells and should be easy to avoid, but how often does a varroa make the mistake? Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:26:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Lackey Subject: Moisture in hives/dehydrator I would be very cautous in the use of a dehydrator with the bees. In the summer, the bees can collect moisture to dilute the honey for feeding to brood. My understanding is that they need moisture in the winter for this process as well. It is thus beneficial to have some moisture condensation, not over the cluster perhaps, but accessable. If we start providing too much ventilation or moisture removal, we may see increased losses but not realize w'eve given too much of a good thing. I commend those of you with a number of hives who are experimenting and keeping good records. There is going to be no quick fix because we are dealing with a living animal which can compensate for our foolishness within a certain range. Results are thus not always conclusive from one test. If I might suggest some reading, look in your local library for information on "Design of Experiments". It is a method of investigating a process with dependencies from a number of influences. One we use for teaching it in an electronics research environment is 'Understanding Industrial Designed Experiments' by Schmidt and Launsby, available from the publisher for about $70 with PC software disk included for analysis of the results. The publisher is AIR Academy Press, 1155 Kelly Johnson Boulevard, Suite 105, Colorado Springs, CO 80920, phone (800)748-1277. One of the things I think we need is a metric to use for more rapid feedback on how well the process is doing without waiting so long. The information presented earlier on results beyond survival to splitting was very good and useful but it took too long. We need to instrument our tests better to record parameters such as temperture, humidity, and others that will predict later performance. New electronic sensors hooked to a PC for monitoring will eventually make this possible, if someone will then fund the research. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Raymond J. Lackey, EAS Master Beekeeper, VP LIBA + + Twelve years exper with 25 colonies on Long Island, NY+ + INTERNET: lackeyr@hazeltine.com + + Mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia NY 11617-2176 + + Home Phone: 516-567-1936 FAX: 516-262-8053 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:25:20 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Moisture in hives/dehydrator In-Reply-To: <199512051426.AA118293579@hazeltine.com> from "Ray Lackey" at Dec 5, 95 09:26:19 am Hi: We have your electronic hives, 13 at this time, 7 out of doors, 6 indoors. They are wired to PCs. We measure temperature, RH, weight of hive, use bi-directional counters to monitors bees going in and out, atmospheric conditions (i.e., weather), and eventually will add air flow in the hives. Our outdoor hives are also plumbed with probes and fittings to look at chemicals (i.e., bee metabolic products, volatiles from pollen, wax, honey, volatiles from the hive boxes, and any other chemicals in the hive). Motor driven pollen traps monitor pollen harvesting by time of day and provide additional samples. To top this all off, we process the bee activity and weather data using artificial neural networks, a form of pattern recognizing, self-learning, articial intelligence. Eventually we hope to use this information to improve or replace our current models of how bees respond to environmental factors ranging from mites to industrial chemicals. Which of these metrics is the most useful remains to be seen. We got all of this up and running last summer. Will spend the winter improving the system. Should be going full speed next summer at locations in the Pacific Northwest and the East coast of the U.S. The one surprise to date is that we underestimated the PC needs. Currently, we have four computers and a data logger on-line. The bee counter proved to be the most difficult. We are getting bi-directional counts from 15 channels (doorways) per hive from sets of ten hives. Serial ports are just to slow. Most advertised A/D systems do not work at the speeds claimed - we have had to turn products back three times. Finally found a modular parallel port feed that is fast! We are using nucleus colonies, so 15 channels/hive is sufficient. Hope to have pictures of this system on the WWW shortly. We intend to publish both the ciruit diagrams and the source code for the data processing. I don't have much patience for the trend over the last ten years to tell people about such technology but not share it. I know people in the U.S. and Europe who hope to make lots of money selling these devices, but they aren't cheap and I can't imaagine that many customers. However, the components are not that bad, so anyone with a soldering gun, a little time, and some patience can duplicate what we are producing. Cheers Jerry Bromenshenk Bob Seccomb The University of Montana jjbmail@selway.umt.edu P.S. I dream up this stuff, Bob does all the hard work designing and testing it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:35:34 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Moisture in hives/dehydrator > thus not always conclusive from one test. If I might suggest some reading, > look in your local library for information on "Design of Experiments". > It is a method of investigating a process with dependencies from a number > of influences. One we use for teaching it in an electronics research > environment is 'Understanding Industrial Designed Experiments' by Schmidt > and Launsby, available from the publisher for about $70 with PC software > disk included for analysis of the results. The publisher is AIR Academy > Press, 1155 Kelly Johnson Boulevard, Suite 105, Colorado Springs, CO > 80920, phone (800)748-1277. You wouldn't have an email address for them would you? I gather the book is more about analysis rather than data gathering and monitoring? At any rate, I purchased a couple (more) of Radio Shack memory remote reading thermometers a couple of days ago - they are on sale here and are an excellent and accurate method of observing what is happening in a hive. > One of the things I think we need is a metric to use for more rapid feedback > on how well the process is doing without waiting so long. The information > presented earlier on results beyond survival to splitting was very good and > useful but it took too long. We need to instrument our tests better to record > parameters such as temperture, humidity, and others that will predict later > performance. I am not sure that there are real and unique solutions to such a complex problem - given the range of factors that may or may not be present in any test, however I believe ranges can be established for optimal feed consumption, mite load, disease suscepibility, survival, and subsequent performance. Probably this must be established empirically, though - as has been the case in the past where beekeepers in a given locality pass down to new beekeepers things that do and do not work. > New electronic sensors hooked to a PC for monitoring will > eventually make this possible, if someone will then fund the research. I looked at the off the shelf thermometer units that have humity readings too, but was not sure how accurate they are at temperatures other than 'room temperature'. It also appeared that they lack remote sensing for this function. I would be very interested in learning where to obtain information on use and supply of the PC sensors you mention. Radio interfaces would be useful too, as I am licenced to use a variety of experimental frequencies. Henry Pirker - a beekeeper in Debolt Alberta - published a paper about ten or more years ago. It was not peer reviewed etc. but was widely reprinted. The title was 'Steering Factor - Humidy' or something close and in it he did humidity measurements in overwintering colonies, and linked low early spring brood production to low humidity due to low external ambient air temperture (and consequent water content). He measured the internal humidity in hives and, I believe manipulated it to show a relationship with brood rearing within certain ranges. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Moisture in hives/dehydrator Hello, All, I want to commend Jerry Bromenshenk and Bob Seccomb for all their research and hard work to try to better understand how we may all raise our bees more successfully. You both are truly a boone to the beekeeping industry. Keep up the good work and thank you for your desire to help us all. Regards, Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@aol.com McKinney, Texas USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:38:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Derk Phelps Subject: Cream Honey Recipe I am looking for a good generic cream honey recipe. Temperatures and the whole thing. We have given it a shot and it is not going hard enough. Any help is greatly appreciated. Derk Phelps Phelps Honey Farm dpbees@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:59:57 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Overwintering hives I just noticed that the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL had an article in the November 1920 issue on wintering bees in Montana (summarized on p. 722 in the current November issue). Remember, that is before migratory beekeeping was very feasible and modern materials unavailable. The claim of "reduced losses to one per cent or less over a period of 6 years" might justify looking up the original article. Some ideas might be useful. Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * *"Discovery is to see what everyone else has seen, but to * * think what no one else has thought." - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:25:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey P. Murray" Subject: Re: Cream Honey Recipe In-Reply-To: <951205133824_125617070@emout05.mail.aol.com> (message from Derk Phelps on Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:38:25 -0500) >I am looking for a good generic cream honey recipe. Temperatures and the >whole thing. We have given it a shot and it is not going hard enough. > >Any help is greatly appreciated. > Look in "The Hive & the Honeybee". They have a chapter on creamed honey that has everything you need to know. One kee thing is that you may have to wait several months for it to harden to the desired consistency, but by following their instructions, I've always had good luck. Jeef ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:30:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: reply Alternatively go to a beekeeper for eggs or queens who has already >reached that goal. If you wish for peaceful beekeeping may I humbly suggest >to all beginners that you never, never use queens from swarm cells to stock >your hives. S H P At long last a kindred spirit. I have been advocating this method of bee keeping for many years, but would suggest if you can't resist taking a free swarm, then requeen as quickly as possible with a nonswarming stock. Who needs the agravation of swarming bees, plus the loss of honey etc? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:52:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Overwintering hives > I just noticed that the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL had an article in the >November 1920 issue on wintering bees in Montana (summarized on p. 722 in >the current November issue). > > Remember, that is before migratory beekeeping was very feasible and >modern materials unavailable. The claim of "reduced losses to one per cent >or less over a period of 6 years" might justify looking up the original >article. Some ideas might be useful. There are lots of us out here who haven't got libraries going back to 1920. Or the current issue of the ABJ. How about you supplying us a precis? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:19:38 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: balder/Baldur Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov 1995 Apologies to the list but I've deleted Pauls original post and don't know how else to get this to him. Paul Address below in case you get a chance to drop by for ice cream(maple syrup or honey topping---your choice). I just have the one hive of Buckfast I purchased from Langes Honey Skep in Mount Vernon > In regards to wraps, it is not necessary to have them here in the > BC/Wash coastal areas but then the main problem here with wintering is > inadequate ventilation with the result of moisture build up in the > colonies. I have seen over the years plenty of colonies 5that died > only because they could not expel enough moisture. Wet and cold, and > the poor bees will be shivering all winter. Now you've really got me worried. I've been finding half a dozen little shrunken dead bees on the entrance pad every week and I've seen no activity lately even on those days the temp rises above 50(which, up until now, has been quite often). Mind you, these bees have never flown in the rain...even in the summer. Lacking a warm day with everybody out picking up pollen, I've hesitated to open it up and look. Pick the next warm day and c'mon over and we'll take a look. I need to put a patty in between the two brood chambers anyway and...uh...when should I remove the strips...Jan 1? I thought someone said they should be in for 41 days only. I've got the hive sitting under a couple of large cedars but its been VERY wet as you know. I draped a blue tarp somewhat loosely over the hive but I'm still worried its too wet(possibly i've exacerbated the problem...causing moisture to be retained in the hive---we got our first freeze today or I'd check it now...come to think of it I will remove the tarp today!) Perhaps I should tilt up the North end of the hive so that no water can collect under the bees. ...Stuart Grant 1834 Cliff Rd(you used to be able to turn left at Roosevelt but now(since PACE implementation) you have to go all the way down Tyee{56th} to Benson, left on Benson to Mill, all the way back up to the border{Cliff runs parallel to Roosevelt and one block south of it) Point Roberts, WA 1-360-945-0654(our bees don't pay GST) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:56:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: top insulation I just ran on some notes from a recent beekeeping trip in Alberta. I had noted that Doug Coulter (a government specialist) was recommanding R24 and even R28 for top insulation. Seems a lot to me! He also said that consumption was 30% less in four packs compared to singles. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder vice-president du Conseil canadien du miel / Vice-president of the Canadian Honey Council 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@praline.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:22:58 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Re winter wraps In-Reply-To: <01HYAJ2RQAW690P0LC@mr.gov.bc.ca> On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299 wrote: > It seems to me that winter wraps are one of those things that can vary a > great deal between operations in an area, let alone different climates. > There are compensating variations in management and equipment that make > consideration of the wrap (in isolation) more difficult. > > One practice that I would like to hear more about, is the use of a thin > (8 mm?) insulation consisting of 2 polyethylene bubble sheets, bonded > with aluminum on the outside. It makes a pretty durable, flexible and > compact insulation that is claimed to have an insulation R value of 12, > the same as 4 inch thick batts of glass fiber or rock wool. It's more > expensive (50 cents per square foot?) but should last longer and be much > more convenient to use and store. I've been told there are some (a few > hundred) in use (for 4 packs) in the Alberta Peace, and that they were > OK last winter. > > Have Allen or Eric heard any more details about them? > I have not spoken to anyone who has used these wraps. My own wraps are becoming a motly collection and I thought this year might be the time to try to evaluate the effectiveness of the insulation. When unwrapping I thought I could rate the wraps as 1, 2, or 3 as to the apparent insulating quality left and see what the survival rate is for all of these. Any ideas? Eric Abell email: eabell@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Gibbons, AB, T0A 1N0 Canada (403) 998 3143 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:30:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Lackey Subject: electronic hives ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Raymond J. Lackey, EAS Master Beekeeper, VP LIBA + + Twelve years exper with 25 colonies on Long Island, NY+ + INTERNET: lackeyr@hazeltine.com + + Mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia NY 11617-2176 + + Home Phone: 516-567-1936 FAX: 516-262-8053 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jerry, sounds great!! I normally work at much higher rates (20MSPS @10-16 bits) but yes, the units often don't live up to claims. One company that has a good reputation is Data Translation, 100 Locke Drive, Marlboro, MA 017 Marlboro MA 01751-1192 (508)481-3700, (800)525-8528. PCs are nice machines bu but not optimum for signal processing. You may want to look into a TI TMS320 board to plug in for your neural process. You are right, they aren't cheap. That is what prvents me from automating my hives. I recently saw an ad for a building sensor that sounded interesting since they could be daisy-chained. Well this is probably getting to be too much electronics discussion for a beekeeping list. Contact me directly if you are interested in pursuing this further. I would be very interested in reviewing your design. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:33:17 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Re winter wraps > > I just bought another 110 of them - enough for the 440 hives that > > had received my alternate treatment last year. They seem to work > > well and last forever - some of mine are 15+ years old and are just > > like new in spite of often being left out in the summer sometimes and laid > > on by cattle. > > All of my wraps are custom made 6 mil poly blankets with R12 fibregalass. > The biggest > problem for lengevity is the breakdown of the mateial when exposed to the > sun. To avoid the sun, I alternate between putting the joint on the > North, then the South, then turning it inside out. Before I did this, I > was discarding wraps that had completely broken down in one area. I gather that the wraps are made from black plastic. This is interesting to know because I assumed that this stuff is UV resistant and would last as long as the material that Inland Plastics uses. I just am in the process of finishing making some plastic bags of top insulation from this stuff and was contemplatng making some bags that I could stuff the rolled up wraps into. The plan was to use them for for outside summer storage so that the wraps would last even longer and not get water into them or have the top bags exposed to the sun. Maybe I should reconsider. > > If I rotate the area exposed to sun and avoid cattle and skunks, they > last a long time. I suspect I have some that are 10 years old. When the > plastic breaks down I open it up and salvage the insulation. The good > stuff goes into a new wrap and the other goes into a pillow for the top. > Often I can simply patch the plastic if the insulation is still OK. > > They are a trifle costly - $31 Cdn (about $23US) for a wrap that > > covers a four pack of hives. And you still need a bag of top > > insulation and plywood sheet on top (1/3 sheet) (I am starting to think this is cheap after experiencing the amount of work that goes into getting the top pillows aready and making the upper entrance holes in the wraps.) BTW we've now eliminated the plywood by having larger flaps put on the wraps themselves. > > I guess the real question that I was trying to answer was - how much > > insulation is *needed* on top? We presently vary from R5 to R25. > I am sure there is an optimal insulation for the top when looking at the > cost effectiveness. However, I don't think there can ever be too much. > As long as the bees can circulate the air they will not overheat because > of too much insulation. This brings up the questions: How big should the hole be? And when should one unwrap? How much feed could be consumed by excess fanning? And How many bees will fly out in inclement weather if the hive gets too warm? I've gone to unwrapping earlier (March) in cases where the bees bother the neighbours. It noticably cuts down the bees flying around when there is nothing to gather. > > Any thoughts on what the insulation does? We know that the bees cluster > and maintain the temperature in the cluster, allowing the balance of the > hive to become cold. So what good does the insulation do? Here is my > hypothesis - I think the insulation simply moderates the rapid changes in > temperature and allows the bees time to organize. In the spring the top > insulation may be of more use. Well, I agree with that, but would add that the insulation allows the cluster to be larger than it would otherwise be bt twice. Top insulation allows the cluster to form a half basketball form aginst the lid instead of a basketball shape below the lid - in effect by mirroring back the heat. This is readily observable on opening hives with and without top insulation. We also often fail to distinguish between the winter dormant state with no or little brood, and the phase whare the bees ramp up to maximum possible brood rearing. I believe that the insulation does little in the former state, but is very crucial in the latter. In the latter the bees _will_ heat the whole hive as much as they can and insulation and controlled ventillation will help a lot. This latter activity happens to coincide witht a time when the bees are old, populations are decreasing due to age, food is scarcer, and diseases are increasing in the hive. > Here is another hypothesis I would like to hear about - Feed left in the > hive is important to eat but it is equally as important as a heat simk. I would prefer to use the words 'heat reservoir', because the heat flow is two way, but that is just being picky; I agree with you. Anything that slows the changes of temperature in the hive helps the bees. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:42:55 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Overwintering hives >> I just noticed that the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL had an article in the >>November 1920 issue on wintering bees in Montana (summarized on p. 722 in >>the current November issue). >> >> Remember, that is before migratory beekeeping was very feasible and >>modern materials unavailable. The claim of "reduced losses to one per cent >>or less over a period of 6 years" might justify looking up the original >>article. Some ideas might be useful. > >There are lots of us out here who haven't got libraries going back to 1920. >Or the current issue of the ABJ. How about you supplying us a precis? I'm sorry but can't be of much help on this matter --- our library has never carried that technical journal. I was just trying to bring attention of something that might have been forgotten. Is there anyone out there who has access to the 1920 November issue of ABJ who could help out? (After all, I live here where we have brood and foraging all year round.) Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * *"Discovery is to see what everyone else has seen, but to * * think what no one else has thought." - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Lackey Subject: Design of experiments Allen Dick, This book is good because it covers both the analysis and how to determine data to be collected and organize the testing to minimize the testing complexity. It does not cover instrumentation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Raymond J. Lackey, EAS Master Beekeeper, VP LIBA + + Twelve years exper with 25 colonies on Long Island, NY+ + INTERNET: lackeyr@hazeltine.com + + Mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia NY 11617-2176 + + Home Phone: 516-567-1936 FAX: 516-262-8053 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:55:59 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Frimston <100325.514@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Queen Rearing I was most interested to see Sid Pullinger's letter. I get more and more convinced of the value of requeening every year but keeping a few old ones for breeding. Stocks with young queens seem to come through the winter more safely, to build up better in the spring and above all to swarm far less than colonies with older queens. If one raises as many queens as possible one can get rid of the poorer ones and improve the stocks. It amazes me that so few beekeepers go in for raising a good supply of queens each year. It has paid me hands down.David Frimston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:51:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Suffocate? For some time we have been puzzling as to why bees in the hive we designed do better than a regular non ventilated hive. The view up to now, has been that the stores and hive are dryer. Now another idea had just surfaced and we hope somebody will discuss it in a practical non scientific fashion. Question "If all living beings, insects included breath by oxygen absorption leaving carbon dioxide. In a closed system, wouldn't you run out of oxygen? Unless there is some ventilation and/or air exchange. Here is we believe a lot of winter kill, the bees suffocate!! Consider the facts, a hive is sealed by the bees, in fact all the cracks are sealed. The inner cover and roof are down tight, some keepers even cover them with plastic. Now, if the bees are using up the available oxygen, leaving carbon dioxide, which will rise with the heat created, the hive becomes a death trap. The bees move upwards during the winter eventually ending up against the inner cover, into the strongest concentration of carbon dioxide. We know that oxygen breathers become sluggish due to oxygen starvation, which would account for the slow decline of some hives. Dr Nasr's work on Thermal Regulation states, "that bees use more oxygen as the temperature drops", it could possibly account for a lot of winter kill. In the words of the CB'ers "Come on Back" **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Suffocate? Is'nt carbon dioxide more dense than air? It would rise slightly from the heat given via bee repiration but would then fall once it equilibrated with the temperature of the enclosure. At any rate the convections and mixing of the gases within the confinement would be controlled by thermal gradients produced by changing temperatures and pressure changes from external winds (breezes). Kind of like baseboard heaters and the movement of the surface of the toilet on a windy day. Just my perspective. Mike snip Now, if the >bees are using up the available oxygen, leaving carbon dioxide, which will >rise with the heat created, the hive becomes a death trap. The bees move >upwards during the winter eventually ending up against the inner cover, into >the strongest concentration of carbon dioxide. We know that oxygen breathers >become sluggish due to oxygen starvation, which would account for the slow >decline of some hives. Dr Nasr's work on Thermal Regulation states, "that >bees use more oxygen as the temperature drops", it could possibly account >for a lot of winter kill. >In the words of the CB'ers "Come on Back" > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* > * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * > * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * > **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:49:17 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: FIA Subject: Bee Venom/Contacts Albany December 6, 1995 Dear Madam, Dear Sir, I would like to get any information regarding American or Canadian bee keepers [honeybeekeepers] who collect the venum from bees. Could you help? There are many skilled beekeepers to collect bee venom, but unfortunately do not find the market for their production, because of the absence of contacts to the pharmaceutical industry, seraching and demaning the need for bee venom. Therefore we hope to find valuable contacts interested to buy bee venom. May be you can help to establish any contacts regarding this matter, who knows the prices and other market demands in the United States or Canada. Best regards from Dorothea Hutchinson FIA International cc: Meelis Foundation for Intellectual Advancement 672 Lollar Lane Fayetteville, AR 72701 USA dhutchinson@arkansasUSA.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 05:00:27 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Suffocate? Comments: To: David Eyre > Now, if the > bees are using up the available oxygen, leaving carbon dioxide, which will > rise with the heat created, the hive becomes a death trap. The bees move > upwards during the winter eventually ending up against the inner cover, into > the strongest concentration of carbon dioxide. Cabcon dioxide is *very* significantly heavier than air. 02 is roughly 16 + 16 = 32 CO2 is roughly 14 + 16 + 16 = 46 (If I remember my chemistry correctly). Weighing roughly 150 % as much as air, it sinks like a stone. The hive has to be sealed pretty completely for it to be a problem. CO2 leaving the cluster soon cools and drops, then runs out the entrance like water. Nonetheless, it can be a problem under some circumstances. I seem to recall Shapiriw (sic?) doing some measurements some years ago in the development of his inner cover design. Many beekeepers have reported having wrapped or unwrapped hives covered over completely with snow and having better than usual success. Ice storms that completely glaze over the hive could be a problem though. I'm a bit more concerned about excessive air exchange - with consequent heat loss - than too little, but that is out here on the bald prairie where winds are high and humidity is low. Now, does anyone have a solution for mice - other than poison? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey P. Murray" Subject: Re: Suffocate? Comments: To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca In-Reply-To: <9512071159.AA21236@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> (message from Allen Dick on Thu, 7 Dec 1995 05:00:27 -0700) Cabcon dioxide is *very* significantly heavier than air. >02 is roughly 16 + 16 = 32 >CO2 is roughly 14 + 16 + 16 = 46 > Actually, CO2 is 12 + 16 + 16 = 44, but close enough. >(If I remember my chemistry correctly). > >Weighing roughly 150 % as much as air, it sinks like a stone. The hive has >to be sealed pretty completely for it to be a problem. CO2 leaving >the cluster soon cools and drops, then runs out the entrance like water. > > I'm not sure I accept the above. Granted that CO2 is heavier than O2 (it's also heavier than N2, which makes up 4/5 of the atmosphere in the first place), I sincerely doubt that it's molecular weight difference will be enough to offset normal diffusion throughout the hive's internal atmosphere. Remember, there are (hopefully ;-) tens of thousands of bodies in some motion in the hive, and "drafts" of molecules should allow the atmosphere to be fairly well mixed interally. This should make striation of atmospheric constituents insignificant, I would think. Note that the above argument WOULD make sense in the case of gasoline fumes, but they are typically many hundreds (if not thousands) of times greater in weight than O2, or CO2, etc. Jeeef ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:52:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey P. Murray" Subject: Re: Suffocate? In-Reply-To: <199512062051.PAA21864@segwun.muskoka.net> (message from David Eyre on Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:51:54 -0500) >roof are down tight, some keepers even cover them with plastic. Now, if the >bees are using up the available oxygen, leaving carbon dioxide, which will >rise with the heat created, the hive becomes a death trap. Here's where I believe you're wrong. All of the normal atmospheric molecules (N2, CO2, O2, H2O, etc.) will be roughly evenly distributed under normal circumstances, but if one (CO2) should increase in concentration relative to the external hive atmosphere, it would tend to diffuse out the bottom of the hive, regardless of the temperature. Sufficient diffusion "pressure" should also be generated to allow oxygen to diffuse in from the hive entrance (at the bottom of the hive). I believe that the diffusion gradient forces will more than offset the temperature gradient forces, thus you will never have a case of zero O2 in the air circulating within the hive. Jeef ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:03:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey P. Murray" Subject: Re: Suffocate? In-Reply-To: <199512062051.PAA21864@segwun.muskoka.net> (message from David Eyre on Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:51:54 -0500) >Cabcon dioxide is *very* significantly heavier than air. > >02 is roughly 16 + 16 = 32 >CO2 is roughly 14 + 16 + 16 = 46 > Actually, CO2 is 12 + 16 + 16 = 44, but close enough. >(If I remember my chemistry correctly). > >Weighing roughly 150 % as much as air, it sinks like a stone. The hive has >to be sealed pretty completely for it to be a problem. CO2 leaving >the cluster soon cools and drops, then runs out the entrance like water. > > I'm not sure I accept the above. Granted that CO2 is heavier than O2 (it's also heavier than N2, which makes up 4/5 of the atmosphere in the first place), I sincerely doubt that it's molecular weight difference will be enough to offset normal diffusion throughout the hive's internal atmosphere. Remember, there are (hopefully ;-) tens of thousands of bodies in some motion in the hive, and "drafts" of molecules should allow the atmosphere to be fairly well mixed interally. This should make striation of atmospheric constituents insignificant, I would think. Note that the above argument WOULD make sense in the case of gasoline fumes, but they are typically many hundreds (if not thousands) of times greater in weight than O2, or CO2, etc. Jeeef ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:06:38 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Carbon - a correction Silly me! Did I say carbon weighed 14? I probably did. I should have said 12 - 12.010 to be a little more precise - most carbon has weight of 12. Only a few fairly uncommon isotopes are heavier. I guess that's what comes of getting up at 3 AM and answering mail. Anyhow, the effect is the same; CO2 is pretty heavy. Though I'd better correct that before we get in an arguement about chemistry :-) Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:48:27 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Suffocate? > >Weighing roughly 150 % as much as air, it sinks like a stone. The hive has > >to be sealed pretty completely for it to be a problem. CO2 leaving > >the cluster soon cools and drops, then runs out the entrance like water. > > I'm not sure I accept the above. Granted that CO2 is heavier than > O2 (it's also heavier than N2, which makes up 4/5 of the atmosphere in > the first place), I sincerely doubt that it's molecular weight difference > will be enough to offset normal diffusion throughout the hive's > internal atmosphere. Good points. Well, if we're talking wintering here - and I think we are - the amount of CO2 release is pretty slow and spread over time - into still air; hence the stone analogy. But maybe it is not a good one. > Remember, there are (hopefully ;-) tens of > thousands of bodies in some motion in the hive, and "drafts" of > molecules should allow the atmosphere to be fairly well mixed interally. > This should make striation of atmospheric constituents insignificant, > I would think. Well, the bees are in a fairly tight, still cluster. CO2 will be at its highest concentration there, one would think . If it rises significantly, the cluster loosens. Hopefully there will not be much stirring air motion in the hive - merely a slow convection current up and through - unless there is a strong wind outside. And the CO2 released is not pure, but at a fairly low concentration. The air released from some part of the cluster will be warmer than the surrounding air as in the original post, but also - heavier when cooled a bit. It also contains significant water vapor. We know from observation that it goes up and out the top entrance from the steam that emerges. If there is no top entrance, then we wonder where the water and the CO2 goes. Water vapor should be lighter than air, but it tends to condense on cool surfaces in the hive. So the question is whether the CO2 rises to the top as originally proposed, intermixes with the air completely, or runs out the bottom. I propose that all three may be true to some extent. > Note that the above argument WOULD make sense in the case of gasoline > fumes, but they are typically many hundreds (if not thousands) of > times greater in weight than O2, or CO2, etc. Well, not to get into gasoline, propane, etc., I think over the time frame we are considering, several factors come in: -one is the number of air changes that are able to take place. -another is the amount of stirring action occuring -another is the natural settling of a heavier substance, -and yet another is the tendancy for solutions to form. Even in the case of completely miscible substances - like the gases in question, mechanical action or time is required for diffusion. If sufficient air exchange occurs, the question is moot. At any rate, I think we are agreed that CO2 will not accumulate unuasually at the top of the hive with the cluster - even without an upper entrance or other provision for upward air flow. I suppose the question that remains is whether there will be any air exchange through a bottom entrance due to heavier air leaving and new air replacing it (convection). I believe there will always be some due to incomplete intermixing of air. This is unless the hive is entirely and tightly sealed and there is only one small hole at the bottom. It doesn't take much of a crack to supply enough air for a cluster. However it becomes fairly apparent that without regular air changes that CO2 and H2O will accumulate in the hive and may reach problematic levels. I think that it is equally apparent that too many air changes could result in loss of heat and moisture to the detriment of the colony. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:24:03 GMT+0100 Reply-To: anthony@iet.hist.no Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MORGAN, ANTHONY" Subject: Re: Suffocate? Hei! All this discussion about Carbon Dioxide in overwintering hives is all very interesting, even if some of the info is dubious science. It all started with the suggestion that some winter loss could be explained by suffocation -- I would suggest that nobody has actually claimed to have had such a loss, if they had it would be worth discussing why and how to avoid it. We use fairly well sealed hives here to overwinter (mid-Norway) with a ventilation opening at the bottom.The only loss mechanism we have big problems with is starvation. If the winter starts early and finishes late it can be diffucult to get the bees to feed properly at the end of the autumn and the late winter/early spring period can be very difficult. However, the point is nobody here has ever had an unexplainable winter loss as far as I know. Assuming they arent hermetically sealed in, that is we arent talking about way out abnormal hive arrangements ----can/ do bees suffocate over the winter? Cheers Tony --------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N. Morgan (Tony) Fax: +47 73 89 62 86 "Stavshagen" E-mail: anthony@iet.hist.no Midtsandan Sor-Trondelag College 7563 MALVIK Elec. Eng. Department Norway 7005 TRONDHEIM, Norway ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:49:42 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Suffocate? > It all started with the suggestion that some winter loss could be > explained by suffocation -- I would suggest that nobody has actually > claimed to have had such a loss, if they had it would be worth > discussing why and how to avoid it. > We use fairly well sealed hives here to overwinter (mid-Norway) > with a ventilation opening at the bottom. Glad to hear from Norway! Actually, I've never heard of suffocation - except in unusual circumstances, hence my arguements against it. Maybe I should have just said so straight out. Thanks for your comments. I'm very interested in the methods you use. I hope this barrage of questions isn't too presumptuous, but I'm sure many on the the list would love to hear the response. I know I sure would. * Do you use any insulation? * Do winter the hives singly or in groups? * What type of hives do you use? * What is miminum acceptable hive weight going into winter? * What are you minimum and average winter temperatures? * How long at the lowest temperature? When? * When is your first frost? Last flow? * When is your first pollen? Snow melt? * Typical survival maeasured at May 10th To answer these myself: * Yes, R5 to R10 on all sides and R15 to R25 on top * We place them in tightly into fours - 2 facing east and 2 west * 2 Langstroth brood chambers with an 1 inch auger hole under the handhole in each box * 50 Kilograms including floor and lid and bees * -40 degrees Celcius and about minus 10 celcius * For about a week or so, anytime from January through February * First frost varies from August 20 to October 20. Last flow September * First reliable pollen is April 15. Snow melts late March storms and snowfall occasionally until May * Typical survival 850 per 1000 (useable hives) Of course, if anyone else would like to jump in here and give the answers to these questions and/or add questions to the list, I for one would be delighted. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:38:51 -4000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Bob Sanford Subject: Apistan Anti-varroa mite strips I would like someone to address any or all of the following questions which I am posting for a friend. Email me at nstn4322@fox.nstn.ca or post answers to the list. Thank you. Bob Sanford Middleton, Nova Scotia 1. The label states: "for best chemical distribution, use Apistan strips when day-time temperatures are at least 10 degrees C. Does this mean not to use them when the average day is below 10 C (i.e. late fall)? 2. If it is alright to treat in the late fall with Apistan, would it be possible to only treat for 10 days and still get an effective treatment because of the broodless period that exists at that time? 3. Would testing for varroa with Apistan strips and sticky boards be effective over a 24-hour period if the average daytime temperature was under 10 C (i.e. late fall)? 4. There has been some discussion here (Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia) that the outside temperature shouldn't matter in the effectiveness of the strips because the bees keep the inner temperature of the hive constant (above 10 C). If this is so, why has the company included temperature information on the label? Bob Sanford Middleton, N.S. nstn4322@fox.nstn.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:34:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Overwintering hives > I just noticed that the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL had an article in the >November 1920 issue on wintering bees in Montana (summarized on p. 722 in >the current November issue). > > Remember, that is before migratory beekeeping was very feasible and >modern materials unavailable. The claim of "reduced losses to one per cent >or less over a period of 6 years" might justify looking up the original >article. Some ideas might be useful. I see our library at the University of Florida has volumes 1-120 (1861-1980) on microfilm. I will look the article up next week and post my findings for you yankees ;). God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Fla. U.S.A., 83 hives ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:23:49 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: bees and mites To whom it may concern Well, It is about time to get involved in some of these discussions about tracheal mites and bees. I would like to clarify some of the confusion about Ontario bee stock. In Ontario we have several bee stocks: 1) Ontario stock: It is a bee stock which is used over the years in Ontario. The University of Guelph attempted to keep this stock in isolated area in northern Ontario to main the genetics. This stock is used as a non-slected control in experiments which were done by Lin's M.Sc (1992) and Dennis Van Engeldorp's M.Sc. 1994. By the way Kerry Clark, these bees are not form the mite resistant lines which have been developed over the last three years by Ontario breeders. 2) Ontario Tracheal Mite Resistant Stock: This stock was known as NewYork stock. This stock was developed by the University of Guelph in Western NewYork. The stock was originated from 6 lines of commercial Ontario stocks and 5 lines of British stocks (Imported by Dr. Roger Morse, Cornell University). The screening and selection of mite resistant lines were based on the colony test which was described by Gary and Page (1989). After three generations, the mite levels in field colonies were 0-5% without any chemical controls. These lines of bees were imported to Ontario. They have been kept on isolated island. Now, three beekeepers are cooperating with the university to get these lines and use them for production. 3) Ontario Bee Breeders stocks: In 1993, 6 bee breeders became interested in the Mite Resistant stock-technology. They participated in the screening test for mite resistance by sending frames of emerging brood from their selected lines (good honey producers+winterability) to test for mite resistance. The selected colonies are used as breeders and drone sources for mating. In this program, the number of the queen producers increased to 22 (including David Eyre) and the Ontario Beekeepers Association is supporting this program. It has been a good program to maintain the mite resistant lines and to get the commercial beekeepers involved in developing lines which meet their demands. In the last two years , the number of queens tested was 700 and the top 25% were selected as mite resistant. 4) Buckfast Bee Stock: The University of Guelph imported Buckfast bee stocks from England and Denmark. As Kerry Clark mentioned that these stocks were developed for honey production, aggressiveness,....etc. In addition, the original bees which were used for breeding were challenged by mite in early 1900's. The selection continued under the same condition in England where tracheal mite existed and these bees were known as tracheal mite resistant!!!!. The first test for Buckfast bee resistance to mites was conducted and reported by Milne and Otis, 1991. They showed that the buckfast bees were relatively resistant to tracheal mites in comparison to North America bee stocks. These results were confirmed by Lin (1992). This does not mean that all Buckfast lines are tracheal mite resistant. I would like to discuss several points about the screening test used for tracheal mite resistance and breeding for resistance: 1. Our definition to mite resistance bee is that bees have low mite loads (mite/bee) which will not affect their productivity. Also, we have to consider the frequancy of genes for resitance in the bee populations. Good resistance means mor colonies with more subfamilies within each colony are carrying the resistant genes. 2. It is true that the host-parasite relationship is applied in this case between the tracheal mite and the honey bee. The tracheal mite is an obligatory parasite on honey bees. Mites have to survive but we are trying to find a balance point where mites can survive on bees without causing economical damages. 3. It is true that we are selecting for bees which have low attraction for mites during the first 7 days of their live. Lin (1992) and Nasr, Otis, and Scott-Dupree (1995) found that there is a significant correlation between the results of the colony screening test and the average mite levels in colonies which were monitored for 1-year. Thus, we choose this colony test to reduce the cost of selection and breeding instead of monitoring bee colonies for one year. 4. We can argue about leaving nature to take its course or using breeding programs. It is a matter of choice. We believe that breeding programs are very successful in animal breeding and plant breeding. Also, they can be successful in bee breeding. Therefore, we got the beekeepers involved in the program and they can select for what they want. This breeding program is evolving as a part of their management. As a result, the progress in developing bee stocks will continue to increase the frequancy of mite resisnat genes as well as the honey production in the commercial bee stocks. 5. We encourged beekeepers to select high producing honey, early spring build up, wintering,....etc. Then, these colonies are subjected to tracheal mite resistance test. 6. At this time, we have 22 beekeepers are involved in this breeding program. For sure, not all of them have the same levels of success or experience. I have one bee breeder who has 70-80% of his tested colonies are showing low tracheal mite loads in the screening test for resistance. This guy is enjoying his bees in tracheal mite infested areas without the need of using chemicals. On the other hand, we have others who still working on the system. 7. Since 1994, an evaluation field test for mite resistance, honey production, ..... etc. have been conducted to test Ontario Resistant (NewYork) stock, Ontario bee breeders' resistant stock, Buckfast stocks, and non-selected bee stocks in two locations in Ontario. The preliminary results showed a significant resistance to mite infestation. 8. Avoiding deceptive marketing, we have been working on this program for the last few years without any advertising. The expenses are paid by the government of Ontario to the Ontario beekeepers Association. Non-of the profit is going to be paid back to the government. All the intension is to breed bees which is resistant to mites and good honey producers. Medhat Nasr ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Suffocate? MORGAN, ANTHONY" wrote >It all started with the suggestion that some winter loss could be >explained by suffocation -- I would suggest that nobody has actually >claimed to have had such a loss, if they had it would be worth >discussing why and how to avoid it. How can you tell if a hive suffocated. I don't think anybody could possibly look at dead bees and tell if they suffocated. What do you look for, blue in the face and their tongue sticking out ;-) >We use fairly well sealed hives here to overwinter (mid-Norway) >with a ventilation opening at the bottom.The only >loss mechanism we have big problems with is starvation. If the winter >starts early and finishes late it can be diffucult to get the bees to >feed properly at the end of the autumn and the late winter/early When you say"starvation" do you mean the bees don't have stores left, or can't move to them because of the cold, two totally diferent problems. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:24:34 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marsha McGowan Subject: New Member I saw this listserv while I was in gopher doing an assignment for a computer class project. My husband has always been interested in finding out about bees. I hope I'm not in over my head. We have bees around our small acreage in western Nebraska and he wondered how you go about getting them into a hive or is it not worth the bother? Marsha ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:27:39 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: New Member >I saw this listserv while I was in gopher doing an assignment for a >computer class project. My husband has always been interested in finding >out about bees. I hope I'm not in over my head. We have bees around our >small acreage in western Nebraska and he wondered how you go about >getting them into a hive or is it not worth the bother? Marsha, I wondered where my swarm of bees flew off to! Would you please tell those ladies to get back here to Texas before they freeze their buns, err... stingers off!! And on a more serious note - I'm e-mailing you some stuff..... Best wishes, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:46:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: carbon dioxide (tangible effects) >All this discussion about Carbon Dioxide in overwintering hives is >all very interesting, even if some of the info is dubious science. >It all started with the suggestion that some winter loss could be >explained by suffocation -- I would suggest that nobody has actually >claimed to have had such a loss, if they had it would be worth >discussing why and how to avoid it. I cannot comment about winter loss by carbon dioxide but I can comment about spring loss from it. A few years ago I modified one of my wintering buildings so that the bees could fly from the building trough holes in the wall. The hives were placed on special stands. Each hive entrance was facing the south wall and had its own exit to the outside. When the outdoor temperature was reaching 10 degrees for at least a couple days in late February and late March, I was opening the bee exits so the bees can make their cleansing flights. From that time I was controlling the indoor temperature and humidity and I was feeding the colonies pollen supplement and syrup (water also at certain occasion). I realised that controlling the humidity was very important in order to get an adequate brood production. The idea was to stimulate my bees early to get an early start with my queen rearing. I was effectively obtaining an abundant production of early brood. Nevertheless important air quality problems were occuring every year after a month or so of stimulation. I am pretty sure that the cause was carbon dioxide buildup in the room. I tried to evacuate air to alleviate the problem, but I did not have the equipment and patience to find the right balance of heating, humidifation and air changes. Probably a computer controlled air conditioning system would have been the answer. I considered putting the bees out before the air quality problems develop but I was scared do do so beacuse of the importance of the brood area relative to the size of the cluster. But anyway what was happening was that, despite the important brood production, the colonies were dwindling after a while instead of increasing their population! Nice to hear from Norway by the way. I am sure beekeepers from both Canada and Norway have a lot to share. Tell us more about your wintering habits and experiences. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder vice-president du Conseil canadien du miel / Vice-president of the Canadian Honey Council 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@praline.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:07:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley" Subject: Re: Suffocate? In-Reply-To: <199512071252.HAA00016@acmex.gatech.edu> > >roof are down tight, some keepers even cover them with plastic. Now, if the > >bees are using up the available oxygen, leaving carbon dioxide, which will > >rise with the heat created, the hive becomes a death trap. If this were the case, we'd also have a lot of dead Eskimos. Think of the hive in the winter as a bee igloo. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, University Of Scranton | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu | reaction is the alternative. ddc1@SCRANTON | -Daniel De Leon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:10:04 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Matthew A Eichler Comments: To: Bee@gold.tc.umn.edu What type of plant is the best when making honey? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:30:30 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Laheij Subject: Helicobacter pylori Helicobacter pylori is a bacteria in the stomach who causes peptic ulcer, cancer and probaly more. Treatment is difficult because of the side effects of the medication. Over a few weeks we start with a project called Helicobacter pylori and Honey. Honey inhibits namely the grow of Helicobacter pylori on plates. Were gonna examine if honey also inhibits Hp in patients. My question is, if there are other divisions of gastroenterology researching at the moment this relationship? Robert Laheij Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen Netherlands email R.Laheij@mie.kun.nl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:38:05 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: carbon dioxide Friends, allow me an ilustrative remark. I keep bumblebees and if qeen should be activated in autumn or winter one of the ways to do this is the CO2 narcosis. In such a case queens usually are put in an Erlenmayer's glass and CO2 is added untill they are motionless. If the glass isn't closed tightly, e.g. with some buch of fine paper only, gueens wake up surprisingly soon, evidently as a result of diffusion of the CO2 through pores in the plug. This responds to the Avogadro's law that a gas in the mixture of gases expands like if there were no other gases present. I would say that in wintering cluster of bees currently not the production of CO2 is a problem, but the condensation of water. On the other hand, as I could see during spells of wery could weather what in our county are the subzero temperatures 20 - 30 C, the lack of oxygen may be more serious problem. If a colony has limited bottom entrance only, and the autside temperature is falling, bees tend to remain in contact with the soure of air - they must generate more heat, what causes an increased respiration since more sugars must be burned. Under such circumstances the cluster may lose its contact with stores. If the cold spell lasts some weeks, such a colony may die even with plentifull stores some cm above the cluster. Larger colonies have the known advantage of continuous contraction of cluster whereas the smaller ones are forced to generate heat sooner. The result of this fact is that the smaller the colony the higher the relative need in oxygen, and the comparatively larger the winter entrance (under severe cold outsiede!). According to my experience colonies need warm upper cover. I would guess for northern conditions as much as 5 - (8?) cm of styrofoam or similar material would be needed. This is substantial help for colonies during wintering (and in any time in the year). Small colonies need also warm walls. During the winter two entrances are good together with the vertical orientation of the hive space. Stores should be mostly above the upper entrance. Bees must have enough time to addopt themselves to this arrangment (from august). Best regards, Vladimir Ptacek ptacek@sci.muni.cz phone: .42/5/41129 562 Fac. Sci., Dpt. Anim. Physiol. fax: .42/5/41211 214 Masaryk University. 611 37 Brno, Czech Republ. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:49:45 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rob Bidleman Subject: Re: carbon dioxide In-Reply-To: <34686.ptacek@elanor.sci.muni.cz> Sorry for the intrusion but I lost the address for the listserv to give commands...anyone care to help me out? Rob - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:02:04 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Bee Cursor for Windows 95 Users Only Those who are using Micro$oft's Windows 95 may wish to download a cursor scheme from : www.internode.net/~allend It is listed in the 'Beekeeping Links' section. I have tested it and it works for me. No guarantees, of course. It's shareware - $4.95 Canadian if you choose to keep it after trying it for a week. By the way, the links list is growing, so if you haven't been there for a while, you may have a pleasant surprise. Enjoy. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:09:32 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: ANNOUNCE: Periodic Posting - BEE-L back issues (etc) * BEE-L logs of posts going back as far as 1989 are available to be read at: www.internode.net/~allend The logs are now up to date. Select the 'BEE-L logs' option from the index there. * A list of other beekeeping sites - including a web book on mead making and a bee cursor scheme for Windows 95 are there as well. * Those who have USENET available may also wish to subscribe to sci.agriculture.beekeeping - if they are not at present. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:32:41 -0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Mouse Guards > I assume that for you, those mice that will move into your hives for the > winter have already done so. Nevertheless, you might consider installing > pieces of 1/2 inch mesh hardware cloth over the entrances to your hives as > mouse guards (normally stapled in place). You can do this without going > into the hive proper. The bees can get in and out, but the mice are > blocked Thanks for the thoughts. I think I'll put this to the list again. Actually my worst problem is that we have wraps on the hives and the mice get into them, making a mess. I spend about $300 a year on poision and would rather not. Besides, I hate to poison the mice inasmuch as they are quite innocent, I would just like to repel them from the area - even if I spent the same money. I wonder if there is a good repellant that would last a winter. It's minus 30 degrees Celcius here these days - we've had a cold snap. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:48:07 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: plant type matther iechler writes: "What type of plant is the best when making honey?" answer: a free plant! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:56:06 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Re winter wraps > > I've gone to unwrapping earlier (March) in cases where the bees > > bother the neighbours. It noticably cuts down the bees flying around > > when there is nothing to gather. > > > Could this be that the bees are needed to control the hive temperature? Exactly, and it keeps them home - and also reduces dwindling. We have considerable dwindling in strong hives during May if we don't split them. Smaller hives devote more effort to raising brood (per bee and spend less time looking for something the (usually) isn't there. In fact a two storey hive with bees on the bottom of five frames May 1st will often dwindle to a single if not split - in our area, at least. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:50:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Apistan use Bob Sanford Middleton, Nova Scotia, wrote: >1. The label states: "for best chemical distribution, use Apistan >strips when day-time temperatures are at least 10 degrees C. Does >this mean not to use them when the average day is below 10 C (i.e. >late fall)? Bob: There's a justifiable sensitivity about adherance to the Apistan label just now, because of the risk of selecting resistant mites. See comments after your # 3 and 4 below. >2. If it is alright to treat in the late fall with Apistan, would it >be possible to only treat for 10 days and still get an effective >treatment because of the broodless period that exists at that time? It seems reasonable that you would get faster, better mite kill during the broodless period. If you have a relatively small mite population, (100 mites total, maybe 10 falling on day 1) 10 days of treatment may be as good as longer, and avoid diffusion of fluvalinate into the wax. One thing late treatment does not do, is provide bees unaffected by mites, for wintering. As with tracheal mites, the bees once fed on by mites, are impaired for wintering, whether the mites are killed or not. >3. Would testing for varroa with Apistan strips and sticky boards be >effective over a 24-hour period if the average daytime temperature >was under 10 C (i.e. late fall)? Yes, here is a major problem. Whether the mites are killed at such low temperatures or not, the cluster is snug enough, that the mites don't drop out to be seen. So an inaccurate measure of the mite population is seen. >4. There has been some discussion here (Annapolis Valley, Nova >Scotia) that the outside temperature shouldn't matter in the >effectiveness of the strips because the bees keep the inner >temperature of the hive constant (above 10 C). If this is so, why >has the company included temperature information on the label? The bees don't keep the hive warm, only the cluster (yes, that no doubt heats the hive to some extent, but not much. The insulation is in the bees). The strips may be in the cluster (or often may not, depending on where the cluster forms). But in any case, the bees are neither moving regularly around the strip, nor allowing "affected" mites to drop out of the cluster (both conditions that will remove mites from the bees). Treating varroa with Apistan in late fall or winter may be better than nothing (in the short run), but better results are obtained from treatments when the bees are more active. There has been a recent article in ABJ (Roger Hopingarner I think) concluding that early fall treatment was better than later. Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:13:17 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Over wintering hives All the talk of winter protection, wrapping, insulation, etc. from the commercial operations in the far north have prompted me to post the method I learned from my beekeeping association. This method is more suited to smaller operations and is used in less severe climates, but it is a successful method that also qualifies for inclusion under the FRUGAL BEEKEEPER category! The method is simply to put an empty hive box (Illinois or brood depth) on top of the inner cover, which has been covered with a piece of burlap. The box is then filled with straw and closed up by the outer cover. The straw provides insulation on top of the hive (although I can't give an R factor), but more importantly, acts as an absorption pad for the water vapor within the hive. It is common to have many ice crystals in the straw during the cold winter days, but the hive stays dry on the warmer days when the ice melts, as the straw retains the water and the bees remain dry. There are other advantages to this method. First, as the straw is pulled off the bale, it separates in layers that are the perfect size to fit into the empty box (it's almost too perfect to be coincidence). Second, if late winter/early spring feeding is necessary the straw can be moved aside to accommodate a pail or mason jar feeder over the inner cover and the straw keeps the temperature of the feeder fairly constant, thereby avoiding the problem of flooding the bees with syrup as the air inside the feeder expands or contracts with temperature fluctuations. Finally, when your bees have successfully over wintered (as they are want to do with this method, provided your bees are healthy in the fall), the straw can be used as a mulch in front of the hive in the spring to keep the grasses down during the summer. Accompanying this advice are the usually fall preparations (mouse guards and top entrance - either an auger hole in the top box or notch in the inner cover). This suggestion comes from the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers' Association. To give an indication of our climate I will answer some of Allen's questions (thanks to him for establishing a barometer so the list can get a feel for the advice being posted). Q: Do you use any insulation? A: Straw (obviously) Q: Do you winter the hives singly or in groups? A: Singly Q: What type of hives do you use? A: Langstroth hives, double brood chambers. Q: What is minimum acceptable hive weight going into winter? A: At lease 75 pounds, 100 is better. Q: What are you minimum and average winter temperatures? A: -20F or lower, average around 20F Q: How long at the lowest temperature? When? A: Two to three weeks, late January to mid February Q: When is your first frost? Last flow? A: First frost comes and last flow ends usually late Sept to mid Oct Q: When is your first pollen? Snow melt? A: Mid March (skunk cabbage and crocus). In like a lion, out like a lamb. Q: Typical survival measured at May 10th A: BM (before mites) approx 90%. Past few years have been MUCH lower, perhaps 40% personally, 65% or better for other members. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:27:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Wintering Bees In Montana ABJ Nov. 1920 Hey Gang, Here is the article: Wintering Bees In Montana How B.F. Smith, Jr., Prevents Serious Winter Losses By Kennith Hawkins Despite the low temperatures of the wind-swept Northwest in winter, B.F. Smith, Jr., one of the most successful roducers of comb honey in Montana, has worked out a plan of applying winter protection to his bees which has reduced losses to one percent or less over a period of 6 years. The method adopted by Mr. Smith might not work in other than the "dry" climates of the inter-mountain States, but have been proven successful on apiaries aggregating a total of 600 colonies of bees. These experiments have been continued since 1914, being applied the first winter to 320 colonies of bees. For the winter of 1919-1920 the methods were used on 600 colonies of bees, with excellent success. The 10-frame hives containing bees are set into pairs by Mr. Smith, the covers removed and a 4-inch tray placed over each hive, this tray having a bottom of cloth to prevent packing sifting down between the hive frames. The trays are filled with planer shavings and sawdust, loosely packed, and the inner covers set on top. Two thicknesses of paper are placed over the hives, the one next to the hive being a red rosin-sized building paper. Over this is placed one thickness of tar paper, and on top of the hive a thickness of tar paper is placed, all being secured in place with lath. Since Mr. Smith operates entirely for comb honey, one might expect a little poorer wintering if consideration is given to the fact that in most honey-comb operations, the queens are restricted for room and consequently there might not be the quantity of young bees in the hive in fall that one might desire. However, the loss of one percent of the bees annually in six years, indicates colonies are in good condition in the fall. The packing material is fairly dry, will pack without too many air spaces between the particles. It is easily accessible in Montana. The packing is never put in tight, and being placed directly over the cluster, operates to some extent as an absorbent of moisture given off by the cluster. One thing of importance is that only part of the apiaries included in this experiment have wind protection, and the difference in winter losses between those protected and those afforded no protection has been negligible, Mr. Smith says. Anyone who doubts that heavy snows do not fall in Montana at times, in spite of the low rainfall in the State may correct this impression by a glance at the accompanying photographs. (Photo 1 is a wide shot of lots of hives with lots of snow. Photo 2 is a closeup of four hives. Two are wrapped with tar paper held on with lath, the other two are bare deeps with a super on top. The caption says "B.F. Smith fills supers with absorbent material and wraps two colonies together in heavy paper".) The reader should remember that the experiment involved the use of some 600 colonies of bees. A study of the climatological peculiarities of Montana affords an interesting sidelight on this wintering plan. The average annual rainfallfot the State at Bozeman from 1880 to 1910 was but 19.29 inches. Heaviest precipitation came in May and June, with fairly heavy average annual fall rains in September and October, over this entire period. The average first killing frost, at Billings, near Mr. Smith, comes about September 10, and the last killing frostabout May 2, according to reports of the Montana Experiment Station. From weather reports, 1919 seems to have been an average season, so far as temperatures are concerned. U.S. Weather Bureau reports show that the mean growing temperature for April was 48.6 degrees F., for May 57.6 degrees, for June 69.2 degrees and for July 72.4 degrees. The mean minimum temperature , for Bilings, over a period of 15 years, ranges from 0 to 20.9 degrees F, in January; from -4.6 to 21 degrees F in February; from 15.7 degrees F to 27.4 degrees F in November and from 3.2 degrees F to 20.8 degrees F in december. Mr. Smith succeeds in wintering successfully in his climate by following the plans enumerated: Vigorous queens, plenty of young bees in fall, adequate stores, reduced entrances, supers removed, packing applied by shavings above the cluster and a double row of wrapping paper surrounding all colonies, rosin-sized paper within, tar paper without all, paper fastened to hives by nailed lathe. Hives are 10 frame, set together for wrapping in pairs, covers are removed, inner cover topping off packed super above brood-chamber. Best of all is the honey test, and those who are aquainted with Mr. Smith know that he ships many thousands of pounds af honey nearly every year. He is located in the Clark's Fork Valley, which is well stocked with bees now. There are many good locations in other parts of Montana and as Mr. Smith is too busy to answer correspondence, information can probably be gotten by addressing the State Entemologist Experiment Station, Bozeman, Montana. Boy, am I glad I live in Florida!!! God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Fla. U.S.A., 83 hives ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:48:47 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Questions I received this by email - which I appreciate, but am answering this to the list because I think it is of general interest. I also hope Andy (or one of the others)will jump in because it is his home turf. > I live about 15 miles south of San Francisco, CA. It has been a dryer winter > so far with only maybe 2 days of rain. Temp. @ about 60 degrees F. > > I took about 180lbs of honey off the hives last summer in two different > extractions. I left 2 medium supers over 2 Brood chambers (BCs) on one hive > and one medium super on, over 2 BCs on the other 2 hives. The one hive with > the 2 honey supers had partialy filled and capped frames as did the other > single supers on the other 2 hives. The BCs in all hives had lots of honey in > the outer frames in both the top and bottom BCs with brood area in the centers > of each central BC frame in both upper and lower BCs. > > I thought I would leave the hives with 2 BCs and one med. super on over the > winter. (I was told I really do not need to leave any honey supers on over > the winter around here as the bees fly all year round except in the rain). I > did not want to starve them. I was hopeing the upper supers would be filled > and capped if I left them on for a few weeks or months. This has not > happeded. To my surprise, The bees have moved down into the lower BC in all > hives and filled and capped every frame in the upper BC and left the suppers > above alone. Possibly your supers are white comb. Bees prefer to overwinter in darker combs that they have used for brood before. They also prefer deeper frames. > Here is my problem. Should I extract the honey in the upper BC in all 3 hives > and leave the partially filled and capped frames of the honey supers for them > over the winter? No, I wouln't. Never (almost never) extract brood chambers. Everything in the bottom two boxes is theirs. Everything above is yours. Trust them to decide how much to give you. Sometimes you might have to remove a few combs to 'loosen them up', but save them and put them in again later. There are several reasons for this: One is it keeps you from getting greedy. Two is that the brood honey is the most likely to have drugs, sugar syrup, etc. Three is that it just works. And above all it conforms with the KISS formula. I've sure had less problems since an oldtimer put it to me that way. > If i do not remove the honey in the upper BCs will the hives swarm at first > honey flow? (The eucalyptus is currently starting to bloom here). Not if there are (more or less empty) supers on and you have young queens from good stock. At least they shouldn't. Some years nothing will stop them. > Will the bees eat the honey out of the upper BCs as they need the room to > expand as the season progresses? Usually they will - and move some up to the supers if necessary. However some strains of bees do it better than others and you *may* have to loosen them up by temporarily replacing a few frames with empties. > I am sure I have way more honey on the hives than is nessecary but I do not > know which honey I should bother with taking off or leaving on. Leaving too much honey on is usually not a problem. Usually people do the opposite. Any honey in the supers is yours. Extract it if you like, but don't leave full supers on when a flow is expected. Partially full supers may be okay - if you don't mind mixing floral sources in your honey. Empty combs near the brood nest stimulate foraging - which is good for the bees and good for you and good for you fruit growing neighbors. > My limited common sence tells me to extract the upper BCs and leave the > mediums on for the winter. I am also a little hesitant about going in to the > hives with the cooler temps and leaving them open for a long time as I go > through frame to make sure the queen is not being disturbed. That's a good reason to leave the brood chambers alone. I'd take the supers away and leave them in doubles when there is no bloom. This a standard practice in your area, as far as I have seen, and they are not burdened by excess room in the hive. All this is assuming that they are not too crowded by doing so. The hives I've seen in your area fit nicely into a double with room to spare at this time of year. However if a bloom is starting, get a super or two on and watch them often - every few days - for signs of needing space such as whitening of combs, hanging out, burr comb, and give them a super at a time after that. Seems you've done nicely so far. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:50:00 GMT+0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "BTMA06::MRGATE::\"BTMA97::AM::THONEH\""@BTMA06.BEL.ALCATEL.BE From: NAME: THONE HUGO SE14 TEL: (240)9452 ADDR: F To: NAME: IN%"BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU" > What type of plant is the best when making honey? I'll tell you if you tell me who is the most beautiful girl in the world. Hugo +++++ Hugo Thone (SE121) email : htho@se.bel.alcatel.be ALCATEL BELL TELEPHONE (\ phone : (32) 3 240 94 52 F.Wellesplein 1 {|||8- fax : (32) 3 240 99 50 B-2018 Antwerp (/ do bee do bee do .... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:00:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: December issue of APIS Distributed to: USR:[MTS]INTERNET.DIS;79, mts FILENAME: JANAPIS.96 Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) Volume 13, Number 12 December 1995 TAKING STOCK IN 1995 It's the time of year to pause and reflect what 1995 has wrought. This issue concludes APIS' thirteenth year, the 155th edition to be printed under this title. In the December 1994 issue, I reported that the newsletter was available on the World Wide Web. I didn't realize what that meant at the time, but the results have been dramatic. If you contact the November 1995 issue through the APIS home page on the World Wide Web, for example, several things not be accessible to someone reading the paper version. Much of the information referenced in previous issues is available simply by "pointing" to highlighted text. This is true for articles on DNA research at the University of Florida, published as early as 1990, as well as previous information on pollination presented this year in the July and October issues. And the paper on vine pollination I gave at the Florida Agricultural Conference and Trade Show (FACTS), currently available in print from Citrus and Vegetable Magazine and IFAS' Gulf Coast REC, is itself accessible directly from the same issue. Metamorphosing like the bees themselves, from egg to larva, pupa and adult, APIS is transforming itself from a collection of discrete four-page issues to a single publication filled with integrating electronic links. The year 1994 ended ominously with the tidings of a new bee disease. Parasitic mite syndrome was officially named and its reporting was to be included in routine diagnosis by the Beltsville Bee Laboratory (See December 1994 APIS). In January, 1995, I discussed the concept of honey bee breeding programs and how they might be carried out, and in April analyzed recent discussions and educational products on queen rearing. Perhaps the most popular article in 1995 was titled "Fluvalinate--Use It Right or Lose It" (February). It was picked up and used by many association newsletters in the United States, Australia and Canada. This is another consequence of APIS on the Web. It has become an international resource of some significance. This year commercial pollination got respect. In March, I devoted almost the whole issue to practical considerations of this enterprise, and in July urged beekeepers to become pollination consultants rather than simply honey bee purveyors. In the same issue pollination resources were listed, as well as an analysis of the controversy about pheromonal attractants. Finally, in October I described an innovative stable pollination service being developed in France. Varroa continued to get a good amount of attention in 1995. In June, I related research on population dynamics, and in August, the problems found in sampling Varroa mite populations. The same month I wrote about differing reproductive rates found in these mites in various parts of the world. Other articles featured in 1995 included those on the National Honey Board (February, March, June, September), minerals in bee food (May), background for honey legislation (June), and how to locate queens (September). The year ended with an entire issue dedicated to the African honey bee's potential impact on Florida regulation and this insect's migration westward into California. HOW TO GET APIS ONLINE The first question I am invariably asked about APIS on the world wide web, is how to get to it. It is becoming easier, but still requires certain knowledge and equipment. As a minimum, one must have a 386 or 486 personal computer running Windows 3.1 or a Macintosh equivalent, and a 14.4 baud modem that transforms computer talk through the phone line. Internet access and a program called a "browser" are also essential. These latter two items are usually available from any commercial "online" service (America Online, Compuserv, Prodigy or the like). Local Internet providers are also becoming common. Confused by all the above "computerese?". Fortunately, the University of Florida through the Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences (IFAS) Cooperative Extension Service has just implemented a traveling course called "Agriculture and the Internet Computer Workshop." Co-sponsored by IFAS and a number of commercial organizations, the training session focuses on developing skills to access agricultural information using the Internet. No previous computer background is required. The course will be held in Orange (Dec. 1), Hillsborough (Dec. 8), St. Lucie (Jan. 12), Escambia (Jan. 19), Brevard (Jan. 26), Baker (Feb. 2), Alachua (Feb. 9), Collier (Feb. 16), Manatee (Mar. 15), Palm Beach (Mar. 29), Lee (Apr. 5) and Duval (Apr.12) counties. Registration fee is $45.00. There is a limit of 30 participants per session. For further information, contact your local county extension office or Carol-Ann Courtney, Office of Conferences, Box 110750, Gainesville, FL 32611-0750, ph 904/392- 5930, FAX 904/392-9734. Bee Biz--LAUNCH ISSUE There's a new kid on the block. "Fifty years among the bees and among beekeepers, and with a great number of bee journals at my disposal, have taught me clearly that the need for all kinds of information was not being met in the field of commercial beekeeping." This are the words of R. Borneck, president of Apimondia, as he welcomes the premier issue of Bee Biz, a quarterly international magazine for commercial beekeepers. Born at Apimondia in Lausanne, Switzerland, the launch issue is a polyglot of international information not found elsewhere. The editor, Matthew J. Allan, discusses the rationale for publishing this quarterly magazine in his editorial. "Apart from geographical differences and differing management techniques, commercial beekeepers around the world have similar challenges and concerns. For example two great migrations are forcing beekeepers to learn to change--the Africanised bee through the Americas, and the spread of Varroa across the continents. The unexpected havoc caused by a simple move of Cape bees out of their natural habitat carried lessons far beyond South Africa and international trade is linked in complex ways. The presence of an apparently innocuous virus in New Zealand has restricted bee exports: the import duty to be levied on Chinese honey by the United States will impact on importers and exporters in countless other countries." Bee Biz has chosen editors from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the United States and the United Kingdom. These all have a wide range of experience and contacts at many levels. The overriding theme of the magazine, according to the editor is: "We want to report on successful strategies and innovations." The first issue does this well with contributions on honey liquefying technology, pollination and African bees in Texas, bee viruses present throughout the world, a successful bee business in Britain, conquering back pain, and queen rearing using Apis mellifera scutellata in South Africa. There is a also a report from drought-stricken Australia and what the new information technology (Internet) has to do with beekeeping. The editor encourages readers everywhere to "comment, contribute or criticise" to their nearest editor or directly to him (41 George St., Eastleigh, Hampshire SO50 9BT, UK, tel: + 1703 617969). The U.S. editor is Joe Moffett, RR3, Box 1760 Cushing, OK 74023, ph 405/372- 6338. Bee Biz subscriptions are US $20.00, and available in the U.S. from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm, Rt. 1, Box 135, Moravian Falls, NC 28654, ph 910/921-3640, FAX 910/921-2681. For information on subscriptions in other countries, contact Northern Bee Books, Scout Bottom Farm, Mytholmoroyd, Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, HX7 5JS, UK, tel: + 1422 882751 FAX + 1422 886751. ADOPTING TECHNOLOGY--WHY? AND WHY NOT? A recent discussion "thread" on the Internet got my attention. It had to do with grease (vegetable oil) patties for tracheal mite control (see October 1994 APIS). This prompted one person to suggest spraying vegetable oil on the bee cluster as a treatment. This is not a new idea. It has even been touted in advertisements in beekeeping publications as a treatment for Varroa as well. It got me thinking, however, about Andrew Matheson's article in the new Bee Biz magazine, "What Makes You Change Your Mind?" Mr. Matheson is current Director of the International Bee Research Association. He's seen firsthand how information is processed by the beekeeping community. "What are the factors which encourage commercial beekeepers to adopt new techniques that come out of scientific research?" he asks. And "why do beekeepers often ignore what seems to be sensible and practical information which can save them money?" The examples used by Mr. Matheson are adopting vegetable oil patties in tracheal mite control, while not employing fumagillin as nosema treatment. The speed with which U.S. beekeepers have taken to using the patties is amazing, he says; they were even used before much research was published. And when it was, according to Mr. Matheson, results were mixed. One concept was that tracheal mites caused winter loss, however some studies showed only a "strong correlation," but not statistically significant results. [Editor's note: for a more thorough analysis of the tracheal mite situation, see June 1991 and April 1993 APIS.] The discovery that oil might be important in tracheal mite control only occurred by accident, according to Mr. Matheson, and was first published in a 1987 mite study. It wasn't until 1991 that a beekeeping journal published similar results: the oil treatment worked impressively in a limited trial; there was no statistical analysis, nor was the mechanism for such control explained. [Editor's note: For results from a later study, see October 1994 APIS.] For nosema, on the other hand, the importance of control, especially in cold climates is clear, Mr. Matheson says. And many studies have shown reduction in honey production, as well as increase in queen supersedure and winter loss, because of this parasite. Recommendations to use fumagillin, based on sound research under practical conditions, are strong (see July 1994 APIS). However, many beekeepers don't use fumagillin routinely. Nosema remains a forgotten disease, Mr. Matheson concludes, especially with new and more headline-grabbing pests around. Reasons for using grease patties, according to Mr. Matheson, include worries about excessive winter loss attributed to tracheal mites. In addition, feeding vegetable oil-based patties was already part of normal management to administer Terramycin (R) for foulbrood control see September 1994 APIS). [Editor's note: Dr. Roger Morse now recommends this technology almost without reservation in the November 1995 Bee Culture, p. 617.] Nosema can also cause winter loss, but is not perceived as a "smoking gun" by beekeepers, according to Mr. Matheson. It is a disease without symptoms or an obvious bottom-line effect. Treating is expensive and there's more at stake, even if hard evidence suggests it's a profitable course of action. Taking on new technology proposed by science is risky, according to Mr. Matheson (see January 1989 APIS). There is a financial risk and one's reputation and credibility are on the line, all depending on the work of "people in white coats." Beekeepers must believe there is a need and be convinced a new technique is profitable. It's one thing to know something, he concludes, but another to believe enough to put it into action. Sincerely, Malcolm T. Sanford Bldg 970, Box 110620 University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Phone (904) 392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX: 904-392-0190 BITNET Address: MTS@IFASGNV; INTERNET Address: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU APIS on the World Wide Web-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:28:28 -0500 Reply-To: Ian Stuart McLean Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Stuart McLean Subject: Re: Queen Evaluation >> >>On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 Ian Stuart McLean wrote : >> >>> What you say is probably true but Supercedure is also an inheritable trait. >>> Here in the UK the British Isles Bee Breeders Association (BIBBA), who > make a feature of breeding queens that supercede. They are very useful in >reducing colony swarming , which is a problem in the UK. > >>Jean-Marie Van Dyck wrote Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:16:40> >>Here in Belgium, almost all the beebeekers know and use the anecbalic >>term to caracterize some big colonies which years after years are >>replacing their queens without any swarming. This supercedure occurs > >While I agree, in my opinion supercedure has a number of disadvantages. It >usually means the bees are unhappy with the current Queen, whether it is >early or late season is immaterial. Either way the hive is in decline as the >current queen is not laying to capacity. When I breed queens and send them >to the "dancehall" for mating I want to know which drones she met up with.So >to my mind, I want to know the pedigree of my queens. Scrubs of unknown >origin cause terrible problems. > Apart from changing a weak or failing queen how does supercedure >prevent swarming. The usual reasons for swarming are I believe, Congestion, >Too much heat, weak or old queen, honeybound, all of which are the keepers >problem. > Congestion......give more space > Too much heat ......ventilate > Weak or old .......requeen > Honeybound.......more boxes. Hi Dave, It' part of the variability of honey bee behaviour. You can select for low swarming / high supercedure traits just as you can for HTM resistance. ianmac@lancsbk.win-uk.net - Northern Regional Bee Inspector, UK - Bee Curious phone/fax 01704 822831 snailmail 'Asland' Flash Lane, Rufford, Ormskirk, Lancs, L40 1SW - UK. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:28:35 -0500 Reply-To: Ian Stuart McLean Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Stuart McLean Subject: Re: Neighbors say Beekeeping a "No no" >> Set up an empty hive body for a while and then when nothing bad >> happens they'll feel better, move the bees in. If something bad happens, >> show them that it's empty and that it's not your fault, nature happens. A friend of mine expecting trouble place a 'decoy' hive on a spot where he wanted to migrate bees for a Himalayan balsam crop. Sure enough the expected trouble occured with a complaint to the police of nuisance and family being stung & harassed. The beekeeper dressed the policeman in veil gloves etc. guaranteed that he wouldn't get stung and took him down to the hive whilst the neighbour railed over the fence. On lifting the lid of the empty hive, the neighbour disappeared and was never heared to complain again. ianmac@lancsbk.win-uk.net - Northern Regional Bee Inspector, UK - Bee Curious phone/fax 01704 822831 snailmail 'Asland' Flash Lane, Rufford, Ormskirk, Lancs, L40 1SW - UK. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:28:41 -0500 Reply-To: Ian Stuart McLean Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Stuart McLean Subject: Re: Queen Evaluation >Bonjour a` tous ! Hi Bee-lovers ! > >On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 Ian Stuart McLean wrote : > >> What you say is probably true but Supercedure is also an inheritable trait. >> Here in the UK the British Isles Bee Breeders Association (BIBBA), who >Generally, the bees let the old queen in the cluster till the young is >laying eggs : it's not rare to see the 2 queens laying together. > >In my mind, it's a lethal character for the wild(or feral) bees but >very interesting for the beekeeper who know and use it in their >beekeeping. This colonies are not easy to multiply and some works >have been published in the '50s, but it seems to me, only in french. BIBBA have published several books and articles on Supercedure queens they are listed at:- http://www.millhouse.co.uk/bibba/ Supercedure does not equate, necessarily to inferior stock. Here in Northern England, the weather is normally stop/ go for the bees. Colonies with prolific queens produce a lot and then eat it all when the weather turns bad. A good supercedure queen seems to produce long lived bees which produce a good crop from a moderately sized brood nest. Management is much easier. Good colonies frequently produce very few queen cells. In order to multply the trait you have to use more swarmy stock to raise your cells, then requeen. Swarmy bees are easy to obtain the phone never stops ringing in June. ianmac@lancsbk.win-uk.net - Northern Regional Bee Inspector, UK - Bee Curious phone/fax 01704 822831 snailmail 'Asland' Flash Lane, Rufford, Ormskirk, Lancs, L40 1SW - UK. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:16:09 CST Reply-To: nc7jr@sun.ars-grin.gov Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Van Roekel Organization: NCRPIS Subject: Re: plant type > What type of plant is the best when making honey? >I'll tell you if you tell me who is the most beautiful >girl in the world. Finally, two questions that I can answer. The best type of plants for honey production are the ones that the bees visit.( as opposed to the ones they don't) The most beautiful girl in the world is a little more difficult to answer. There are 5, my wife and daughters first of course. After them, the most beautiful "girl" is of course Diana Rigg. This is the definitive answer, this thread is now closed. E-mail me directly for further comments. Roekel Bill Van Roekel Central Iowa, U. S. A. nc7jr@ars-grin.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Info >Sorry for the intrusion but I lost the address for the listserv LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:33:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Suffocate? >> >roof are down tight, some keepers even cover them with plastic. Now, if the >> >bees are using up the available oxygen, leaving carbon dioxide, which will >> >rise with the heat created, the hive becomes a death trap. > > If this were the case, we'd also have a lot of dead Eskimos. >Think of the hive in the winter as a bee igloo. > I hardly think this is a good analogy. The Eskimos can get out for a walk around!!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:04:04 EST Reply-To: Robin Wells Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robin Wells Subject: Re: Suffocate? On Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:29:17 -0500 you wrote: >How can you tell if a hive suffocated. I don't think anybody could possibly >look at dead bees and tell if they suffocated. What do you look for, blue in >the face and their tongue sticking out ;-) Can't say I have seen a blue bee :) However, tongue sticking out, particularly of young newly hatched bees is more a sign of starvation if anything. >When you say"starvation" do you mean the bees don't have stores left, or >can't move to them because of the cold, two totally diferent problems. Agreed, and both may have different solutions. The first can only be done by careful planning in the fall packing, while the second is more difficult. Perhaps careful planning may rectify the second as well, although a warm hive that allows the cluster to move more easily should help as well. There may be other problems if the cluster becomes too warm however, as increased movement will cause an increase in stores consumption, an increase of moisture, and an increase in oxgyen intake. Robin Wells rawells@jenera.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:51:08 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Wintering Bees In Montana ABJ Nov. 1920 In-Reply-To: <199512081827.NAA60770@freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu> from "Kelley Rosenlund" at Dec 8, 95 01:27:18 pm Well, some things have changed and some haven't. Minus 70 wind chill today, actually only minus 35 at Missoula. You won't get any answer from Bozeman if you try to contact the State Entomologist. No bee work and no state entomologist at that institution. A couple of us work on bees at the University in Missoula. We did swap names a few years back.. Bozeman used to be MT State College and we were MSU, but now we are The University of Montana-Missoula, and our sister campus is MSU-Bozeman. I especially like the The in our name. State has an entomologist of sorts, but she is in Helena in the Dept. of Agriculture. What else, well we still can get lots of honey in a good year. Nobody uses sawdust as per the article. Wrapping varies from nothing, to waxed cardboard boxes (commercially available), to a bit of roofing felt on top, to wrapping in black roofing felt. Over the years we found that sawdust, straw, etc. can get wet during the January thaw and then freeze your hive into a block of ice. Hardly anyone uses the top insulation all the Canadians use. Many feel less is more. Main thing in this state is to reduce the bottom entrance, seal the worst cracks from wind (which is why the wraps), add an inner cover, and throw some rocks on top to keep the wind from blowing them off. Most of our folks keep some spare supers of honey and may even snowmobile in to the hives in February to see if they need some food. My own experience is protect them from the wind. Whether all the insulation, etc. does much good is an open question. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu P.S. I do wrap in roofing felt. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:41:55 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Jensen Subject: Re: Questions >> Here is my problem. Should I extract the honey in the upper BC in all 3 >>hives >> and leave the partially filled and capped frames of the honey supers for them >> over the winter? > >No, I wouln't. Never (almost never) extract brood chambers. >Everything in the bottom two boxes is theirs. Everything above is >yours. Trust them to decide how much to give you. Sometimes you >might have to remove a few combs to 'loosen them up', but save them >and put them in again later. I am in the same area as the original poster (SF, Calif.), and have had what appears to be a varroa related change in bee behavior. I also run doubles, but almost all of my hives have filled the second story completely full of honey in spite of ample supering. They never did this before the mites got here. As a result it has become quite time consuming and rather hit or miss treating for varroa. I have had quite a few hives which did not get the strips into the brood and as a result died or had to be retreated in a weakened state. All of the big commercial beekeepers that I talked to at the CA state convention are using single story brood chambers, and claim not to notice any reduction in yields in Calif. I have therefore decided to go to single stories and have inserted the excluders after chasing the queens down. To the original poster I would recommend extracting the honey in the second story and using a single story brood chamber from now on. Two brood chambers don't seem to provide any advantage in this area to be worth the extra hassle. > To my surprise, The bees have moved down into the lower BC in all >> hives and filled and capped every frame in the upper BC and left the suppers >> above alone. This is not a good sign. With the warm weather we have had and the eucalyptus flow that you have noted your bees should be strong and working in the supers. All of mine that were successfully treated with the strips are now doing so. Your bees' behavior sound suspiciously like what happened to some of my bees that did not get the strips into the brood because of too much honey in the second brood chamber. You may need to insert strips into the lower brood chamber right away if this is the case. Good luck. Mark Jensen-Double J Apiaries mjensen@crl.com Los Altos Hills, CA, USA fax 415 941 3488 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 01:09:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Liz Day Subject: Montana, land of icicle bees >The average first killing frost, at Billings, near Mr. Smith, comes >about September 10, and the last killing frostabout May 2, >The mean minimum >temperature , for Bilings, over a period of 15 years, ranges from 0 to 20.9 >degrees F, in January; from -4.6 to 21 degrees F in February >>Boy, am I glad I live in Florida!!! >>Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu >>Gainesville, Fla. U.S.A., 83 hives And I'm glad I live in Indianapolis, where at least it has been in the 40s until now and just snowed tonight for the first time. Killing frost was mid-November this year, early January last year. >>>Most of our folks ..... may even snowmobile >>>in to the hives in February to see if they need some food. >>>Jerry Bromenshenk >>>jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Count me out please! Think I'll nestle down in that packing material and stay there..... :-) Liz Day LDAY@indy.net Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:18:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jeremy Burbidge Subject: Bee Biz Editors Questions I have been asked by Matt Allan, editor of BEE BIZ to ask the following questions of members in BEE-L. They are queries which have been submitted to him by readers of Bee Biz, to which he cannot find imediate solutions. Any replies will be sent on to him by return Apistan and Bayvarol kill braula as well as varroa. This is an advantage to commercial honey producers. What is the period of the egg to pupal stages of braula? Is six or eight weeks enough to ensure that all braula are exposed to the acaricide? What is the specific heat of beeswax the latent heat of fusion of beeswax the specific heat of honey. Many thanks to BEE-L members in advance for the help offered. Jeremy Burbidge Publisher BEE BIZ (U.K.) phone 1422 882751 , fax 1422 886157, e-mail ruxbury@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:01:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Lackey Subject: Windows '95 bee cursors Does anyone know how to look at these cursors when you don't have windows 95? I'd just like to take a look. Maybe this will make me want to just run right out and upgrade to '95 from Windows 3.1!! ;-) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:30:22 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Pollination & Ideal Brood chamber size Boy! Am I glad I followed instinct and decided to put this to the list instead of staying with private email. Thanks for jumping in Mark! My last personal experience with bees in California was in 1986 and I guess a lot has changed. I remember now that Kevin Ward (from California) was up here last month and mentioned that he was using single broods and that he felt that he was able to treat better - and cheaper - for mites and that it didn't seem to affect his ability to get good buildup. I though it a little peculiar and I didn't realise that this is a general change in California. I wonder how this affects the standards for pollinating hives? I know our pollination standards up here specify two brood chambers. > I am in the same area as the original poster (SF, Calif.), and have had > what appears to be a varroa related change in bee behavior. I also run > doubles, but almost all of my hives have filled the second story completely > full of honey in spite of ample supering. They never did this before the > mites got here. As a result it has become quite time consuming and rather > hit or miss treating for varroa. I have had quite a few hives which did not > get the strips into the brood and as a result died or had to be retreated > in a weakened state. All of the big commercial beekeepers that I talked to > at the CA state convention are using single story brood chambers, and claim > not to notice any reduction in yields in Calif. I have therefore decided to > go to single stories and have inserted the excluders after chasing the > queens down. I'd also like to use this a springboard to (re)open discussion on ideal brood chamber size: I've run single broods here in Alberta, Canada a number of times for different reasons: 1. Comb honey production on a large scale * 2. Experimenting with extracted production in single broods. In both cases, I found that wintering was less successful - unless the hives were restored to doubles as soon as the main flow was over and preferably sooner. I also found that the singles did not produce as much extracted honey or do as well generally. This in spite of reports to the contrary from Saskatchewan. This latter effect *may* have been due to shortage of feed and/or neglect during buildup. Singles tend to starve - or suffer from feed shortage - really quickly. I guess one must keep a super on with some feed in it when possible - or a top feeder. Of course in theis latter case, they will plug up in a jiffy, so the super sounds smarter. Not only do they starve faster, but they will plug up faster too. I'm used to doubles and they hold more feed and have more room for feeders. They are also more tolerant of warped combs and other forms of neglect. My singles for comb production were usually made up by taking all the brood from a double hive and placing it in a single. The books are right. All the brood most queens can make will fit into a standard box with room for a comb or more of feed. A factor in my use of singles is that - possibly - some combs were less than perfect in some hives and the area for brood rearing *might* have been inadequate - I don't think so. Additionally some had 9 frame spacers - leaving even less comb area, but allowing more tolerance for warpage. I have never been able to see any difference in survival, buildup, etc between 8 and 9 frame spacing. However, my observation was that - left to themselves - the queens did not utilise the entire nest in singles in the spring, but tended to leave the outside combs. I asked Kevin if he had to spread brood in singles. He said never. The bees spread out just fine in California. I heard years ago that the shape of the brood nest tends to follow the magnetic lines of force; at the equator (where the lines are horizontal) the brood nest tends to expand horizontally. In the North and South, where the lines are more vertical and re-entering the magnetic poles, the brood nest tends to be more vertical. I wonder if that is true? It was a factor in the design of the Kenyan hive, as I recall. I feel that up here at least, the queen does not like to spread out as much as go up and down. In July the queen will sometimes go wall to wall, so perhaps it is a function of temperature and flow conditions too. At any rate, I'd much rather use singles, but have had problems. I feel that doubles are too roomy for good honey production, but necessary for good buildup, wintering outdoors, and require much less management. I remember reading in a journal years ago that a fellow in the central states (USA) said that the last big crop he had was the year before he switches to 10 frame brood chambers from (narrower) 8 frame broods. I always wondered about that. I leave frame feeders in one side of each of my standard Langstroth double broods and seldom have them filled with comb unless I am slow supering. I use an excluder above the second brood. As varroa approaches us here, we need to start to (re)think a few things and maybe give smaller BC's a try - for purposes of mite control, if nothing else. Those mites are making beekeepers out of us! Forgive my rambling, everyone and if you have some thoughts - and hopefully experience - in the above , I'd love to hear about it. TIA Allen * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * PS I am selling about 500 beautiful pine dovetailed Ross Round supers for a good price because I am (after 15+ years) cutting back my comb honey production. Email me if you are interested. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * And - to keep going well after the end - What are your thoughts on advertising on the list? I have been planning some additional lists to take some burden of this one. One I have in mind would be nothing but ads (free) for buy and sell. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * PLEASE!!! - Newbies and Oldbees - Respond on these last items *to me and only me*. And please look at the header *before* you send. While on the subject; please let's make sure we don't post ANYTHING to the list unless it is potentially of interest to the 400+ people on the list, or unless there is no other way to reach the target audience - and the matter relates to bees in some way. We periodically get babble going where a few people start some small talk and post every comment to all the members rather than going off-list. This always results in people leaving the list. We need good posts on matters relating to bees, job offers, meetings etc. I wonder about other ads, seeing as this is a worldwide list. Comments on thede non-bee matters to me personally. Will summarise. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:51:38 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Bee Biz Editors Questions-control of Braula"Bee lice" Comments: To: Jeremy Burbidge The development of Braula requires from 63-67 days as reported by Dukov (1964) (Morse, Honey bee pests..etc.). Another reprot (Abd El-salaam , 1962) mentioned that Development of Braula takes only 16- 23 days. If Apistan works on Braula it will kill adults only. This is because eggs, larvae, and pupae are in the capping of the honey cells. Medhat Nasr, Ph.D. Research Scientist, Ontario Beekeepers Association Ontario, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 22:18:24 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Jensen Subject: Re: Pollination & Ideal Brood chamber size >As varroa approaches us here, we need to start to (re)think a few >things and maybe give smaller BC's a try - for purposes of mite >control, if nothing else. What seems to have happened here in central Calif. is that varroa has somehow caused the bees to plug the BC's with honey, and that means full second stories with very little brood. I have been using 2 story BC's for 25 years, and until now it has always seemed to be the right thing to do. It used to be in the fall that the lightest hives were the weakest, but now all the hives are super heavy, and the heaviest are the weakest. I am joining the others here in going to single story. I don't think this would apply in the northern climates unless the same plugging of the BC's happens up there too. My BC's are so plugged that most of them need to be relieved just to enable adequate brood production in the new year. There is no way in this climate that they will use up enough honey before spring to open up the BC's enough for the populations to build up optimally. Mark Jensen-Double J Apiaries mjensen@crl.com Los Altos Hills, CA, USA fax 415 941 3488 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:38:58 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brixington Apiary Subject: Info required on Top Bar Hives. Hi Everyone... I seem to have missed all the correspondence on Top bar hives if anyone has a copy of any messages or information, Could you please send them to me ?. I am collating them for Ron Brown. Thanks.. Alec Jefford bee@g8gon.zynet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:35:35 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: carbon dioxide In-Reply-To: <34686.ptacek@elanor.sci.muni.cz> > According to my experience colonies need warm upper cover. I would guess > for northern conditions as much as 5 - (8?) cm of styrofoam or similar > material would be needed. This is substantial help for colonies during > wintering (and in any time in the year). Small colonies need also warm > walls. During the winter two entrances are good together with the vertical > orientation of the hive space. Stores should be mostly above the upper > entrance. Bees must have enough time to addopt themselves to this > arrangment (from august). > Best regards, > Vladimir Ptacek > ptacek@sci.muni.cz phone: .42/5/41129 562 > Fac. Sci., Dpt. Anim. Physiol. fax: .42/5/41211 214 > Masaryk University. > 611 37 Brno, Czech Republ. > I enjoyed your comments. Would you please expand on your statement about the stores being mostly above the upper entrance. I have always provided an upper entrance at the top of the hive. My feeling is that the moisture must be removed and I have wondered if I am losing too much heat. Perhaps there is someone who has done some work with upper entrances at various levels who could comment on this. Eric Abell email: eabell@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Gibbons, AB, T0A 1N0 Canada (403) 998 3143 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:31:00 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MacFawn, Dave" Subject: Re: Pollination & Ideal Brood chamber size Comments: To: Allen Dick You may want to consider a deep and a medium depth super for the brood chamber. After I did an analysis (published the results in ABJ beginning of the year), I decided to switch to deeps and medium depth supers. For overwintering (I'm in Lexington, SC) I use a deep and one medium which was also OK when in lived in Winston-Salem, NC. Actually, this seems to have been more than enough honey for this area. Initially, I was thinking about standardizing on all medium depth equipment. However, I had a lot of deeps so I decided to standardize on one deep and one medium for the brood chamber. I do not use queen excluders with the idea of letting the queen expand her brood nest to the max. size in the spring which results in any swarming tending to be late in the honey flow (provided I added plenty of supers). The two, plenty of supers and max expansion of the brood nest prior to the honey flow, means that the brood nest does not get congested as soon. ---------- >From: Allen Dick >To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L >Subject: Pollination & Ideal Brood chamber size >Date: Saturday, December 09, 1995 10:30AM > >Return-Path: <@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM:dicka@cuug.ab.ca> >Received: from ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM by msgate.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM id > <30C98322@msgate.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM>; Sat, 09 Dec 95 12:37:54 edt >Received: by ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM; 9 Dec 95 12:39:02 EST >Received: from ncrgw1.UUCP (ncrgw1@localhost) by ncrhub5.attgis.com > (8.7.3/8.7.3) with UUCP id MAA18044 for > msgate.columbiasc.attgis.com!davem; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:38:05 -0500 (EST) >Received: by ncrgw1.ATTGIS.COM; 9 Dec 95 12:37:48 EST >Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with > BSMTP id 9511; Sat, 09 Dec 95 12:30:15 EST >Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by > CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3333; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 > 12:30:11 -0500 >Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) > with NJE id 4252 for BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:30:06 > -0500 >Received: from ALBNYVM1 (NJE origin SMTP@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail > V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3329; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:30:05 -0500 >Received: from cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with > TCP; Sat, 09 Dec 95 12:29:59 EST >Received: from dialin3.internode.net by cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB > 5.64/4.03-CUUG-02) id AA28944; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:28:59 -0700 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Priority: normal >X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) >Message-ID: <9512091728.AA28944@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:30:22 +0700 >Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Comments: Authenticated sender is >From: Allen Dick >Organization: The Beekeepers >Subject: Pollination & Ideal Brood chamber size >To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Boy! > >Am I glad I followed instinct and decided to put this to the list >instead of staying with private email. > >Thanks for jumping in Mark! > >My last personal experience with bees in California was in 1986 and >I guess a lot has changed. > >I remember now that Kevin Ward (from California) was up here last >month and mentioned that he was using single broods and that he felt >that he was able to treat better - and cheaper - for mites and that >it didn't seem to affect his ability to get good buildup. > >I though it a little peculiar and I didn't realise that this is a >general change in California. > >I wonder how this affects the standards for pollinating hives? > >I know our pollination standards up here specify two brood chambers. > >> I am in the same area as the original poster (SF, Calif.), and have had >> what appears to be a varroa related change in bee behavior. I also run >> doubles, but almost all of my hives have filled the second story completely >> full of honey in spite of ample supering. They never did this before the >> mites got here. As a result it has become quite time consuming and rather >> hit or miss treating for varroa. I have had quite a few hives which did not >> get the strips into the brood and as a result died or had to be retreated >> in a weakened state. All of the big commercial beekeepers that I talked to >> at the CA state convention are using single story brood chambers, and claim >> not to notice any reduction in yields in Calif. I have therefore decided to >> go to single stories and have inserted the excluders after chasing the >> queens down. > > > >I'd also like to use this a springboard to (re)open discussion on ideal brood >chamber size: > >I've run single broods here in Alberta, Canada a number of times for >different reasons: > >1. Comb honey production on a large scale * >2. Experimenting with extracted production in single broods. > >In both cases, I found that wintering was less successful - unless >the hives were restored to doubles as soon as the main flow was over >and preferably sooner. I also found that the singles did not produce >as much extracted honey or do as well generally. This in spite of >reports to the contrary from Saskatchewan. > >This latter effect *may* have been due to shortage of feed and/or >neglect during buildup. Singles tend to starve - or suffer from >feed shortage - really quickly. > >I guess one must keep a super on with some feed in it when possible >- or a top feeder. Of course in theis latter case, they will plug >up in a jiffy, so the super sounds smarter. Not only do they starve >faster, but they will plug up faster too. > >I'm used to doubles and they hold more feed and have more room for >feeders. They are also more tolerant of warped combs and other forms >of neglect. > >My singles for comb production were usually made up by taking all the >brood from a double hive and placing it in a single. The books are >right. All the brood most queens can make will fit into a standard >box with room for a comb or more of feed. > >A factor in my use of singles is that - possibly - some combs were >less than perfect in some hives and the area for brood rearing >*might* have been inadequate - I don't think so. Additionally some >had 9 frame spacers - leaving even less comb area, but allowing >more tolerance for warpage. > >I have never been able to see any difference in survival, buildup, >etc between 8 and 9 frame spacing. > >However, my observation was that - left to themselves - the queens >did not utilise the entire nest in singles in the spring, but tended >to leave the outside combs. > >I asked Kevin if he had to spread brood in singles. He said never. >The bees spread out just fine in California. > >I heard years ago that the shape of the brood nest tends to follow >the magnetic lines of force; at the equator (where the lines are >horizontal) the brood nest tends to expand horizontally. In the >North and South, where the lines are more vertical and re-entering >the magnetic poles, the brood nest tends to be more vertical. > >I wonder if that is true? It was a factor in the design of the >Kenyan hive, as I recall. > >I feel that up here at least, the queen does not like to spread out >as much as go up and down. In July the queen will sometimes go wall to wall, >so perhaps it is a function of temperature and flow conditions too. > >At any rate, I'd much rather use singles, but have had problems. I >feel that doubles are too roomy for good honey production, but >necessary for good buildup, wintering outdoors, and require much less >management. > >I remember reading in a journal years ago that a fellow in the >central states (USA) said that the last big crop he had was the year >before he switches to 10 frame brood chambers from (narrower) 8 >frame broods. I always wondered about that. > >I leave frame feeders in one side of each of my standard Langstroth >double broods and seldom have them filled with comb unless I am slow >supering. I use an excluder above the second brood. > >As varroa approaches us here, we need to start to (re)think a few >things and maybe give smaller BC's a try - for purposes of mite >control, if nothing else. > >Those mites are making beekeepers out of us! > >Forgive my rambling, everyone and if you have some thoughts - and >hopefully experience - in the above , I'd love to hear about it. > >TIA > >Allen > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > >* PS I am selling about 500 beautiful pine dovetailed Ross Round >supers for a good price because I am (after 15+ years) cutting back my >comb honey production. Email me if you are interested. > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >* And - to keep going well after the end - What are your thoughts on >advertising on the list? > >I have been planning some additional lists to take some burden of >this one. One I have in mind would be nothing but ads (free) for buy >and sell. > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > >* PLEASE!!! - Newbies and Oldbees - Respond on these last items *to >me and only me*. > >And please look at the header *before* you send. > >While on the subject; please let's make sure we don't post ANYTHING >to the list unless it is potentially of interest to the 400+ people on >the list, or unless there is no other way to reach the target audience - > and the matter relates to bees in some way. > >We periodically get babble going where a few people start some small >talk and post every comment to all the members rather than going off-list. > >This always results in people leaving the list. > >We need good posts on matters relating to bees, job offers, meetings etc. > >I wonder about other ads, seeing as this is a worldwide list. > >Comments on thede non-bee matters to me personally. Will summarise. >Regards > >Allen > >W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK >RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca >Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:40:51 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Re winter wraps In-Reply-To: <9512081646.AA25460@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> > > > > > > All of my wraps are custom made 6 mil poly blankets with R12 fibregalass. > > > The biggest > > > problem for lengevity is the breakdown of the mateial when exposed to the > > > sun. To avoid the sun, I alternate between putting the joint on the > > > North, then the South, then turning it inside out. Before I did this, I > > > was discarding wraps that had completely broken down in one area. > > > > I gather that the wraps are made from black plastic. This is > > interesting to know because I assumed that this stuff is UV resistant > > and would last as long as the material that Inland Plastics uses. > > Somewhat UV resistant. If the same surface is exposed each year, after 3 > or 4 years is is paper thin and brittle and tears very easily. I have a > supplier that will supply me with poly of almost any specifications. > Note that if you purchase 6 mil what you get is 6 mil equivilent. > Something like buying 2x4 lumber. With this supplier I get any thickness > up to a real 6 mil. I also can get any width I desire. The production > process is interesting. It is produced first as a long tube and then > sliced. That is, 80 inch wide would first be a 40 inch tube. If you > ever have need of a tube or a bag (simply have the end sealed, then this > is something to keep in mind. The supplier is SUPERPOLY in Edmonton and, > perhaps, Calgary. > > > > > I just am in the process of finishing making some plastic bags of top > > insulation from this stuff and was contemplatng making some bags that > > I could stuff the rolled up wraps into. The plan was to use them for > > for outside summer storage so that the wraps would last even longer > > and not get water into them or have the top bags exposed to the sun. > > > I custom make my own wraps and bags for the top. SUPERPOLY will supply > almost any size I wish, as bags or tubes, or sheets, clear or black. I > then cut if necessary and seal with heat. Many beekeepers use a > household clothes iron and tin foil to heat. I could never get a nice > seal with this method and at best the edge was scalloped. Then a friend > in the construction industry gave me a great tool. Its heating surface > is about 2 inches by 14 inches. Thermostat controled. Covered with > Teflon. The right tool makes all the difference. > > If you wish to store your wraps on site, and if you feed with drums, you > might try stuffing some of the wraps into the drum. > > I bring all of my wrapping material back to the honey house, throw the > good wraps up in a barn loft, and the damages ones into the honey house. > A rainy day project is to repair or replace these damaged wraps. As long > as the wrap has not suffered from UV deterioration, and the insulation is > sound, we just keep patching. I have some that have several lavers of > patches and may be more patch than original. When the insulation is no > longer good, or the plastic has disintegrated, I split it open, put the > good wraps in a new blanket, take the junk insulation and use it in a bag > for upper insullation. > > > > > (I am starting to think this is cheap after experiencing the amount > > of work that goes into getting the top pillows aready and making the > > upper entrance holes in the wraps.) > > > > BTW we've now eliminated the plywood by having larger flaps put on > > the wraps themselves. > > I would like to hear more about this. I have looked at several designs > and have not found anything I am happy with. Could I simply seal a large > rectangle to my side blanket, making it look like a 'T' ? > > > > > This brings up the questions: How big should the hole be? And when > > should one unwrap? How much feed could be consumed by excess > > fanning? And How many bees will fly out in inclement weather if the > > hive gets too warm? > > I would like to hear some feedback on this but in my opinion, it is not > the insulation that heats the hive. It simply prevents the loss of > heat. But this works both ways. I believe that wrapped hives do not > heat up as early in the day. > > > > > I've gone to unwrapping earlier (March) in cases where the bees > > bother the neighbours. It noticably cuts down the bees flying around > > when there is nothing to gather. > > > Could this be that the bees are needed to control the hive temperature? > > > > > > > Any thoughts on what the insulation does? We know that the bees cluster > > > and maintain the temperature in the cluster, allowing the balance of the > > > hive to become cold. So what good does the insulation do? Here is my > > > hypothesis - I think the insulation simply moderates the rapid changes in > > > temperature and allows the bees time to organize. In the spring the top > > > insulation may be of more use. > > > > Well, I agree with that, but would add that the insulation allows > > the cluster to be larger than it would otherwise be bt twice. Top > > insulation allows the cluster to form a half basketball form aginst > > the lid instead of a basketball shape below the lid - in effect by > > mirroring back the heat. > > > > This is readily observable on opening hives with and without top > > insulation. > > > > We also often fail to distinguish between the winter dormant state > > with no or little brood, and the phase whare the bees ramp up to > > maximum possible brood rearing. > > > > I believe that the insulation does little in the former state, but > > is very crucial in the latter. In the latter the bees _will_ heat the > > whole hive as much as they can and insulation and controlled > > ventillation will help a lot. > > Agreed. But I think it is rare, in cold weather, that the entire hive is > warm enought for brood rearing. > > > > This latter activity happens to coincide witht a time when the bees > > are old, populations are decreasing due to age, food is scarcer, and > > diseases are increasing in the hive. > > > > > Here is another hypothesis I would like to hear about - Feed left in the > > > hive is important to eat but it is equally as important as a heat simk. > > > > I would prefer to use the words 'heat reservoir', because the heat > > flow is two way, but that is just being picky; I agree with you. > > > > Anything that slows the changes of temperature in the hive helps the > > bees. > > Regards > > > > I know this is getting to be a long message but I hesitate to delete much > of Allen's comments as they are useful enough to be read again. Besides, > it is not that often that we agree :) > > Eric > Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 18:19:11 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Suffocate? >Let's try to keep this off the list. > >'Reply to sender' is more appropriate than 'reply to list' for this >type of thing. Mr Dick, Boy are you aptly named. As a LADY beekeeper of some 35 years, I am sick and tired of reading your constant drivel. Did GOD die and appoint you as his replacement or did your dream it up yourself. The information!!!! that you put on the net is often not of interest to 486 people but your cronies who you compliment on blowing their noses. When good discussion takes place you have a habit of degrading other people's efforts with your long winded diatribe, to put your name up in lights if so I would look for a different medium. Are you so insecure in your life that this is your only gratification, if so give my condolences to your wife. Maybe you could take her out for dinner once in a while and give us all a break. Mrs Jean Eyre >While on the subject; please let's make sure we don't post ANYTHING >to the list unless it is potentially of interest to the 400+ people on >the list, or unless there is no other way to reach the target audience - > and the matter relates to bees in some way. >* PLEASE!!! - Newbies and Oldbees - Respond on these last items *to >me and only me*. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 18:19:12 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: FYI: Reply to I notice that the reply to on BEE-L is now 'to sender', not 'all recipients' This a GOOD THING. It means that those too far gone in their cups or inexperienced with the intricasies of the net will only send a note to the sender when they hit 'reply'. But I've had a couple of very good posts sent to (only) me when they should have gone to everyone. Please read the headers on your outgoing email and make sure that if you wrote something worthy of the list that it goes to BEE-l. If it is a personal comment or a witicism aimed at the writer of another piece, it will likely be (automatically) addressed to her/him only. TIA Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:45:11 MYT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Abd Wahab Ishari bin Mohd Hashim Organization: Faculty of Elect Eng, UTM, Malaysia Subject: Wants to buy honey directly from beekeepers Dear Sirs/Madams, I am interested in purchasing "pure and unprocessed" honey directly from beekeepers. If anyone has an offer please send e-mail directly to me. Thank you. __________________________________________________________ Abd Wahab Ishari bin Mohd Hashim Fakulti Kejuruteraan Elektrik Universiti Teknologi Malaysia Locked Bag 791 80990 Johor Bahru, Malaysia Tel:607-5505123,607-5576160 ext. 5123 Fax:607-5566272 e-mail: wahab@fkeserv.fke.utm.my For backup please also cc to: e-wahab@utmkl.utm.my ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:36:50 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Constable Subject: Re: Wants to buy honey directly from beekeepers Comments: cc: v.constable@janus.cqu.edu.au >Dear Sirs/Madams, > >I am interested in purchasing "pure and unprocessed" honey directly >from beekeepers. If anyone has an offer please send e-mail directly >to me. > >Thank you. > > >__________________________________________________________ > >Abd Wahab Ishari bin Mohd Hashim >Fakulti Kejuruteraan Elektrik >Universiti Teknologi Malaysia >Locked Bag 791 >80990 Johor Bahru, Malaysia >Tel:607-5505123,607-5576160 ext. 5123 >Fax:607-5566272 >e-mail: wahab@fkeserv.fke.utm.my > For backup please also cc to: e-wahab@utmkl.utm.my > >I am a beekeeper in central Queensland,Australia. I would be interested to obtain more details as to what your requirements are. Please reply at your earliest convenience. thanks Vince Constable ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 01:16:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley" Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: "BTMA06::MRGATE::\"BTMA97::AM::THONEH\""@BTMA06.BEL.ALCATEL.BE In-Reply-To: <01HYKLELVHKG9GWTO9@btmv56.se.bel.alcatel.be> On Fri, 8 Dec 1995 BTMA06::MRGATE::"BTMA97::AM::THONEH"@BTMA06.BEL.ALCATEL.BE wrote: > > I'll tell you if you tell me who is the most beautiful > girl in the world. Why it's *your* girl, of course...8-} ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, University Of Scranton | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu | reaction is the alternative. ddc1@SCRANTON | -Daniel De Leon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 01:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley" Subject: Re: Suffocate? In-Reply-To: <199512082133.QAA05112@segwun.muskoka.net> On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, David Eyre wrote: > >> >roof are down tight, some keepers even cover them with plastic. Now, if the > >> >bees are using up the available oxygen, leaving carbon dioxide, which will > >> >rise with the heat created, the hive becomes a death trap. > > > > If this were the case, we'd also have a lot of dead Eskimos. > >Think of the hive in the winter as a bee igloo. > > > I hardly think this is a good analogy. The Eskimos can get out for a walk > around!!! No, it's not. They'd die in their sleep if there wasn't some kind of air circulation in the igloo, that is unless they slept in short shifts or advanced air handling systems... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, University Of Scranton | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu | reaction is the alternative. ddc1@SCRANTON | -Daniel De Leon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:00:13 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Suffocate? To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca From: beeman@kuai.se (P-O Gustafsson) Subject: Re: Suffocate? Hi Allen, Here are some thoughts on the subject. I'm located in Sweden not far from Tony. >> It all started with the suggestion that some winter loss could be >> explained by suffocation -- I would suggest that nobody has actually >> claimed to have had such a loss, if they had it would be worth >> discussing why and how to avoid it. >> We use fairly well sealed hives here to overwinter (mid-Norway) >> with a ventilation opening at the bottom. >* Do you use any insulation? Hives made from high density styrofoam, 25 mm sides and 30 mm lid. >* Do winter the hives singly or in groups? Singly. >* What type of hives do you use? Langstroth full depth. >* What is miminum acceptable hive weight going into winter? 20 kg net of sugar, often 5 kg honey left. >* What are you minimum and average winter temperatures? Minimum -20, average just below 0. >* How long at the lowest temperature? When? One or two weeks, january-february. >* When is your first frost? Last flow? October-november, august. >* When is your first pollen? Snow melt? Beginning of may, april >* Typical survival maeasured at May 10th 95% I use hives made only from styrofoam, bottom board as well. The bottom have an 8 mm entrance and a 200 mm square hole in the center with a mesh to keep mice out. My opinion is that a hive that is sealed upwards and have good ventilation under is the best here. Preferably there should be two entrances during winter so the wind can move through under the bees and take CO2 and moisture away. I don't se any difference when the hives get covered with snow, on the contrary they get a better insulation and will not be disturbed by birds or other things. I have experienced suffocation problem earlier when I had hives without the bottom vent hole. After a mild day there can be a build up of ice in the entrance that cause the bees to get stressed by the lack of oxygen. They will get restless, start moving around, raise temp and oxygen consumption and soon be in a circle that cause them to either deficate inside or fly out to die in the snow. Cheers P-O ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 08:39:55 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hugo Veerkamp Organization: Stichting InterWorld Subject: Helicobacter pylori hoi Robert! > Helicobacter pylori is a bacteria in the stomach > who causes peptic ulcer, > cancer and probaly more. Treatment is difficult > because of the side effects of the medication. > Over a few weeks we start with a project called > Helicobacter pylori and > Honey. Please let us all know some of your results afterwards ?! > Honey inhibits namely the grow of Helicobacter > pylori on plates. Were > gonna examine if honey also inhibits Hp in patients. > My question is, if there > are other divisions of gastroenterology researching at > the moment this > relationship? The only thing I heard about honey w. respect to gastroenterology, is the 'suspected' relationship between ingestion of honey by infants under 1 year of age, and SIDS( sudden infant death syndrome, or 'wiegedood'); The word was 'infant botulism', back in the seventies. Some sources deny this relationship, others don't , but still the baby's intestinsal tract seems to offer a good microclimate for certain( anaerobic) bacteria. Perhaps an interesting footnote to your report ? beste groeten, Hugo -- \|/ @ @ Hugo Veerkamp ----------oOO-(_)-OOo--------------------------------------------- | Email: BEENET INTERNATIONAL | | hug.bee@beenet.iwg.nl | mail : the Bee bbs | | | P.O. BOX 51008 | | | 1007EA AMSTERDAM | | | The Netherlands | | Beenet : 240:31/0 | modem: +31 20 6764105 | | Fidonet: 2:2801/28 | voice: +31 20 6715663 | ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Robert Laheij > Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen > Netherlands > email R.Laheij@mie.kun.nl > --- GIGO+ sn 272 at iwg vsn 0.99.950801 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:15:37 GMT+0100 Reply-To: anthony@iet.hist.no Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MORGAN, ANTHONY" Subject: Re: Overwintering in Norway, etc. To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Will send you answers to your questions direct -- mostly the same as given by P-O Gustafsson but with some significantly different details as far as the hive is concerned. Must ask for your patience however, have just had an unwanted "holiday" in hospital and the work has piled up! Incidentally, I am unfamiliar with the R5, R10 .... system - what is the practical significance of these (thermal conductivity?) codes? To everyone one the list: Could you indicate which bee race you have when you give practical tips etc.? We here in mid-Norway have A.m. carnica (carniolan?) bees which I know are quite different in colony development etc. from for example italian bees. Such differences can be important! Cheers all, Tony --------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N. Morgan (Tony) Fax: +47 73 89 62 86 "Stavshagen" E-mail: anthony@iet.hist.no Midtsandan Sor-Trondelag College 7563 MALVIK Elec. Eng. Department Norway 7005 TRONDHEIM, Norway ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:21:45 GMT+0100 Reply-To: anthony@iet.hist.no Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MORGAN, ANTHONY" Subject: Re: Varroa detection methods I would be very grateful if a couple of someones (at least) could (direct if necessary) either describe exactly the following two mite detection techniques or send an electronic copy of the relevant approved technique description: 1) UK -- MAFF Tobacco smoke test 2) USA (Florida?) -- the "ether roll" test Thanks in advance Cheers, Tony --------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N. Morgan (Tony) Fax: +47 73 89 62 86 "Stavshagen" E-mail: anthony@iet.hist.no Midtsandan Sor-Trondelag College 7563 MALVIK Elec. Eng. Department Norway 7005 TRONDHEIM, Norway ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:14:10 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Helicobater pylori (dated) Taken fron the Internet is an excerpt from a September '92 New Zealand beekeeping newsletter: MANUKA CLINICAL TRIALS SOON Another very interesting presentation at this year's confer- ence seminar was made by Dr. Peter Molan of Waikato Univer- sity. All our readers probably already know about Dr. Molan and his team and the fantastic work they are doing investi- gating the antibiotic properties of manuka and other honeys. The seminar gave Dr. Molan the opportunity to summarize both his work and the substantial scientific literature on the medicinal properties of honey. Honey has long been used as a wound dressing, and according to Dr. Molan it is probably the perfect substance for such a use. Not only is it antibiotic (killing almost all bacte- ria), it also keeps the wound from dehydrating. Almost all other wound dressings either keep the wound dry (avoiding infection, but leading to scarring), or moist (avoiding the severe effects of dehydration, but making a great medium for bacteria to grow). Honey is also better than man-made antibiotics because such antibiotics actually slow down the rate of cell growth. The hygroscopic (moisture-attracting) nature of honey, on the other hand, actually pulls body fluids and nutrients to the wound surface where they help speed skin growth and healing. According to Dr. Molan, honey has got everything going for it except the acceptance of the medical fraternity. But the recent discoveries about a second antibiotic substance in manuka may help to change all that. All honey gives off hydrogen peroxide, a known antibiotic. The hydrogen peroxide is produced when the glucose in honey reacts with oxygen. The problem with hydrogen peroxide as an antibiotic, however, is that in large concentrations it breaks down in the presence of a common enzyme (catalase), producing the characteristic fizz we see when we put it on a cut. Honey, because it produces hydrogen peroxide slowly, at a low level, doesn't loose it's effectiveness. Provided honey is kept away from light, the enzyme which breaks down the hydrogen peroxide won't even activate. Dr. Molan and his students tested the hydrogen peroxide in honey on a range of bacteria and as a control removed the hydrogen peroxide with catalase. That's when they discov- ered the second antibacterial property in manuka. While not present in all samples of manuka, some samples showed a high level of non-peroxide inhibition over a whole range of bac- teria, even at honey dilutions of as low as 1.8%. The exciting thing about the manuka discovery is that this non-peroxide antibiotic substance works against even highly resistant bacteria such as the MSRA bacteria which is gain- ing a reputation for closing down hospital wards. According to Dr. Molan, doctors may soon be looking back at the last 20 years as the golden age of antibiotics. In the near fu- ture we may have a host of bacteria resistant to synthetic antibiotics, and the need for naturally occurring antibiot- ics like the one found in bioactive manuka will be all that more important. Manuka has been shown to be effective against Helicobater pylori, which is now thought to be the major cause of stom- ach ulcers. And this is where the honey is finally to be tested in a clinical trial. A large number of patients will be given 1 tablespoon of bioactive manuka or another honey before meal times, five times a day. The patients will then be examined for the reduction in H. pylori bacteria. The trials are set to begin around New Zealand once the Otago University Hospital ethics committee approves the trial. Theztrial will hopefully be funded by a grant from the Honey Industry Trust Fund. BUGLOSS SAMPLES SOUGHT Dr. Molan mentioned that the one honey other than manuka that might have the non-peroxide bioactive ingredient is vipers bugloss, also known blue borage (Echium vulgare). The plant grows in many parts of the country, and is an im- portant honey producer in parts of Central Otago and the MacKenzie Country. The only problem is that Dr. Molan has only ever tested one sample (it was positive), and despite all his efforts has been unable to get any more. Now there's bound to be more samples of borage honey kicking around the South Island, es- pecially after this year's big honey crop, so if you can supply Dr. Molan with a sample, please help him out. Send a 50 gm sample, together with as much information as possible on where the honey was produced, to Dr. Peter Molan, Depart- ment of Biological Sciences, University of Waikato, Private Bag 3105, HAMILTON, ph (07) 856 2889 And by the way, a lot of people don't know that Dr. Molan's real job actually involves teaching, supervising graduate students, and working with the dairy industry. Believe it or not, his work on manuka honey is just a side-line inter- est, and he hasn't received any government research funds to carry out the work. Our whole industry should be thankful for the interest and enthusiasm he has shown toward our main beekeeping product. Good on ya, Peter! Keep up the good work! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: excluders, singles I am interested in the issue of single hive bodies as well. I see excluders as necessary evils. Where I keep bees the honey flow is over by June 1 and I use an excluder over a single hb to preserve the honey in the deep or shallow super above over the course of the summer. However, we have explosive population growth (and need it for the early honey flow) in the spring and it seems one hb won't hold the brood production. Thus I am always torn and end up going around as I take honey with fume boards by leaving the board on a little long and dropping the excluder down on top of the hive body, which is to say it has been over the second hive body or super during the flow. It would make life easier to restrict the queen to a single hb, but will it work in the southeast? I would appreciate any ruminations from other beekeepers in the southeast. The last thing I want is a lot of swarming. Bill Lord -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:16:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mason Harris Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Subject: What to do??? Hello Fellow Bee-Lers! I have been going back and forth with some of the folks on the Bee-L regarding what I might do in a new situation I have come across. It seems that when I treated my hives with strips, there was allot of honey and brood in the upper brood chamber (BC) of 3 hives. I assumed the bees were going to move up into the upper BCs this winter as I read moving upward is what they do. When I went back to remove the strips, I found the upper BCs were completely filled and capped with honey! I have been asking (privately) what I should be doing to fix this. I was prompted by the people I was communicating with to post this to the list so here it is. Here are my concerns and questions: Should I extract the honey in the upper BCs and leave the supers above the queen excluder for their winter feed only? I understand that many folks don't even leave any honey supers on in the winter as the bees fly all year round here. (15 miles south of San Francisco) I was told that the bees may have not been exposed to the strips as the honey in the upper BC prevented this and I should re-insert the strips in the lower BC ASAP. Here is one reply I received: If i do extract all the upper BCs, and replace the empty frames and BC, will this invite a wax moth problem? In addition, it was recommended I go to single BCs. I like the idea of going to one BC (less hassle), but I reverse the BCs as a swarm prevention technique. Last spring both BCs were packed with bees and brood. My feelings is that going to one BC will make them more swarmey and limit the population possibilities. How does one deal with these concerns? Any comments on these questions will greatly appreciate as this is my first year of bee keeping and I have no experience base to form a plan of action from. Thanks for any help you can lend and Happy Holidays Mason Harris, MA SMCOE Audiology Dept. E-Mail: SMHARRIS@ED.CO.SANMATEO.CA.US ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:31:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Liz Day Subject: Re: Helicobater pylori (dated) One of the main people researching H. pylori is Dr. Barry Marshall, at the Univeristy of Virginia School of Medicine. He might have info on honey research if any has been done. Their office phone is 804 924 5916. I do not know their full address (it's in Charlottesville, VA, but I don't know the street nor zip) nor their email if any. Liz Day LDAY@indy.net Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:04:00 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Malcolm Roe Subject: Re: Pollination & Ideal Brood chamber size In-Reply-To: <9512110502.AA17281@crosfield.co.uk> from "MacFawn, Dave" at Dec 10, 95 04:31:00 pm Dave MacFawn wrote: > You may want to consider a deep and a medium depth super for the brood > chamber. This practice is very widespread in the UK, particularly in the South, but I didn't realise it was used anywhere else in the world. Here we generally call it "brood and a half". It's frequently used with British National hives which are widely considered to have too small a brood chamber for a strong queen. Most of the people who taught me my beekeeping used it so, after a couple of years and once I was established with a couple of full strength colonies in Nationals, I thought I should try it too. To put it mildly, I was not impressed. There are twice as many frames, so inspections, finding the queen, etc., take longer. You have two different types of brood frames so transferring frames of brood or stores or making up nulclei is less flexible. In my case, at least, it didn't seem to greatly reduce the tendency to swarm. (Putting (honey) supers on early was much more effective.) Although there may have been some improvement in honey yield it was small compared with the natural year-to-year variation. After a couple of years I went back to single brood chambers and I've stayed with them ever since. Nationals are normally worked with 11 frames and I find that at the peak of brood rearing I get brood on 9 frames. 7 are more or less solid brood apart from the corners. When I used brood and a half I found the active part of the brood nest became more spherical. The queen went up into the top half but she didn't go out as far sideways. I didn't make any actual measurements but my impresssion was that she laid up about the same same area of comb. I realise that other climates and other designs of hive may produce different results but I prefer simplicity. If I thought a larger brood chamber would reduce swarming that would be a different matter but I'm not convinced it does under my circumstances. I may be slightly reducing my yield but it can't be by more than something like 10%. If I wanted that much extra honey I'd prefer to start an extra hive. -- Malcolm Roe Phone : +44 1442 345104 Crosfield Electronics Ltd Fax : +44 1442 343000 Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK E-mail : roe@crosfield.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:34:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: Suffocate? I doubt that the quality of air could be a problem in outdoor wintering even without a top hole. I think the rationale for a top entrance is... 1 - to allow the moisture to evacuate the hive 2 - to allow the bees to fly on mild days when the hives are half covered with snow I would like to bring the discussion on the issue of HUMIDITY in the hive during the winter. The first question is how bad is humidity for the bees? I know it has a bad effect on the stores, combs and wooden hive parts. But how bad is the effect on the bees themselves? If we recognize that the interior of the hive should be kept dry, are there alternate ways to so other that the conventional 1 cm x 6 cm top hole. Personally I would be reluctant to eliminate it completely and lose the alternate bee entrance. Could we make this top hole smaller in order to keep more heat? Could we invent some design that would minimise the loss of heat? What is the source of this moisture? It probably origins essentially from the differential of temperature between the interior and the exterior of the hive, the walls and roof acting as condensation surfaces. On that regard, more insulation around and on top of the hive would reduce condensation. Grouping the hives would also help. The top is probably the most important surface to keep warm. Hive materials also play an important role. I am convince that styrofoam hives as our Swedish friend uses would be fantastic. I have used styrofoam mating nucs and I really enjoyed them. Styrofoam surfaces would stay much warmer than wood surfaces and not allow as much for condensation. But they are too costly for my budget and they are not available in Canada. Another old approach that could be looked at is the "moisture catcher" at the top of the hive. Wood shavings and straw have been used quite extensively in the past and have almost disappeared, probably to the benefit of newer materials easier to handle. Should we go back to using them? Would there be easier to use modern materials that would have similar absorbing properties? A hobbyist in my area found that when he wraps his hives with the top feeders still on, the interior of the hive remains dry, even in the absence of a top entrance! The condensation from the top drops in the feeder itself, not on the frames and cluster. I have noticed that the top entrance by itself does not do a perfect job as far as evacuating the moisture. (Even with 3 inches of styrofoam as top insulation.) Abundant ice on the bottom board is certainly an indicator. I have noticed the same with strong hives packed by group of 4 in the Canadian Prairies (with the same type of top insulation). Should we look for a combination of top hole and moisture absorbent? Should we reduce or redesign the top entrance? I think a scientific approach to this question would be helpful. Room for an interesting research on both the effect of moisture in the overwintering colony and ways to control it, unless somebody knows about such researches that would have been done in the past. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder vice-president du Conseil canadien du miel / Vice-president of the Canadian Honey Council 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@praline.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:18:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Ether roll test for Varroa mites In-Reply-To: <01HYP7JDFBDE8X03VA@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> A Florida video tape, Varroa Mite Detection, VT 249 is available from the Florida Cooperative Extension Service. It explains in some detail the ether roll procedure. Some of the information is dated (produced 1989), but gives an introduction to the subject. It is 1/2 inch VHS, available from me by sending me a blank tape with a return address. Tom Sanford +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Malcolm (Tom) Sanford Extension Apiculturist University of Florida Mailing Address: Bldg 970, Hull Rd., Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Voice phone 904/392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX 904/392-0190 INTERNET:MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU ==================================================================== Publisher of APIS -- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm Instructor of Principles of Entomology, ENY 3005-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/eny3005/eny3005syl.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:04:40 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Suffocate? Hi Jean-Pierre >I would like to bring the discussion on the issue of HUMIDITY in the hive >during the winter. > >The first question is how bad is humidity for the bees? I know it has a bad >effect on the stores, combs and wooden hive parts. But how bad is the >effect on the bees themselves? We know that the bees need much water for brood rearing in spring before they start flying and can get it from outside of hive. Also when there is much crystallized sugar/honey in the hive the bees will need water to reliquefy it. >If we recognize that the interior of the hive should be kept dry, are there >alternate ways to so other that the conventional 1 cm x 6 cm top hole. >Personally I would be reluctant to eliminate it completely and lose the >alternate bee entrance. Could we make this top hole smaller in order to >keep more heat? Could we invent some design that would minimise the loss of >heat? There are very few beekeepers here (Sweden) that use top entrance during winter. Personally I belive it's better to have a bottom board that provides sufficient ventilation. There are different constructions on bottomboards that will do the job, more or less complicated in construction. One of the best is probably the "barras" bottom that I think originate from Norway. Tony would be more suited to explain about it. >What is the source of this moisture? It probably origins essentially from >the differential of temperature between the interior and the exterior of the >hive, the walls and roof acting as condensation surfaces. I think most of the humidity is produced by the bees themselves in the metabolism when they consume the feed. >Another old approach that could be looked at is the "moisture catcher" at >the top of the hive. Wood shavings and straw have been used quite >extensively in the past and have almost disappeared, probably to the benefit >of newer materials easier to handle. Should we go back to using them? >Would there be easier to use modern materials that would have similar >absorbing properties? A hobbyist in my area found that when he wraps his >hives with the top feeders still on, the interior of the hive remains dry, >even in the absence of a top entrance! The condensation from the top drops >in the feeder itself, not on the frames and cluster. Wouldn't it be better to try to eliminate the need for a top entrance rather then constructing "moisture catcher"? Put the effort in finding a bottom construction that is efficient enought. Are all beekeepers in the US and Canada using top entrance during winter? What is the reason for it when it's not needed here? The north of Sweden has as cold winters as Canada, and probably longer (lat 65). Cheers P-O ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Sabbatical proposal--commercial pollination in southern Europe I am applying for a faculty development grant (sabbatical) to visit southern France and Spain in February through July, 1997. I am interested in studying the evolution and significance of alternative pollinators to honey bees in the region. I understand there is immense activity in using Bombus to pollinate green house crops and that this is affecting commercial pollinators using Apis. I have an invitation from French Extension Specialist, Pascal Jourdan at ADAPI (Association pour le Developpment de l'Apiculture Provencale. He has kindly offered to host me at his station in Aix en Provence. However, I would like to make more contacts in both France and Spain prior to making my formal application January 5, 1996. If anyone on this list in the area specified is interested in the concept, and would be willing to work with me on the project, please let me know and I will send you the full proposal. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Malcolm (Tom) Sanford Extension Apiculturist University of Florida Mailing Address: Bldg 970, Hull Rd., Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Voice phone 904/392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX 904/392-0190 INTERNET:MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU ==================================================================== Publisher of APIS -- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm Instructor of Principles of Entomology, ENY 3005-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/eny3005/eny3005syl.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:48:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Misdirection Ladies and Gentlemen, I was amazed yesterday to read that my message sent on Friday, 8th December, diected personally, and received personally, to Mr Dick had been sent by him to the complete Bee-L on Sunday 10th Dec. Incidently.I have received 1 letter of reprimand and several concurring with my views. . This letter was in answer to scathing comments from Allen Dick on several occasions regarding our postings on Bee-L. When David queried him once before, his comments were that we only want Academics and Scientists on Bee-L and that any one else can go hang. We are on the information highway, and in my view if we see a hitchhiker, we should pick them up and give them a ride, not run over them. When I was a child growing up in England, a very kind Gentlemen taught me beekeeping and it has set me in good stead, but these days few people seem to want to help new beekeepers. If they are not given help and advice, how will they learn and how will the industry progress. The man in CA who recently posted that he had just tasted the first honey from his first frame should have been greatly encouraged, but I bet few even gave him another thought. So, I apologise to the list on Mr Dick's behalf for involving the whole list on a purely personal matter. Yours sincerely, Jean Eyre. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:54:59 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Suffocate? > Wouldn't it be better to try to eliminate the need for a top entrance rather > then constructing "moisture catcher"? Put the effort in finding a bottom > construction that is efficient enought. > > Are all beekeepers in the US and Canada using top entrance during winter? > What is the reason for it when it's not needed here? The north of Sweden has > as cold winters as Canada, and probably longer (lat 65). The two main reasons for upper entrances IMHO are: 1. To provide air if sleet or drifting plug the bottoms with hard snow or ice - or dead bees accumulate there. This former event occasionally can result in mass suffocation of hives. This is a rare but costly event. and 2. To ensure that the bees can fly from *double* brood chambers in the spring when it is a very long walk down to the bottom board from the cluster. (Here we are again with the differences between single and double broods). I've noticed that since I've put auger holes in each upper box, that the weaker colonies do not drift out to the stronger ones as much after we unwrap in the spring. Formerly, the bees from weak colonies were drawn to the entrance activity of the stronger hives and would move in there on their first flight. I don't notice much difference between hives with a 1/8 square inch hole (1/4" X 1/4") and those with 3/4 square inch (3/8" X 2") hole. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:24:35 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Misdirection > This letter was in answer to scathing comments from Allen Dick on > several occasions regarding our postings on Bee-L. Simply untrue. > When David queried him once before, his comments were that we only > want Academics and Scientists on Bee-L and that any one else can go hang. An outright lie. > We > are on the information highway, and in my view if we see a hitchhiker, we > should pick them up and give them a ride, not run over them. Hitchhikers are not allowed on many freeways - for good reasons. > So, I apologise to the list on Mr Dick's behalf for involving the > whole list on a purely personal matter. Thanks, but please apologise for yourself. I'll apologise for myself when - and if - it is called for. When I was in the process of attempting to return your corrosive email to you, somehow it got posted to the list. A lot of people found it good for laughs and said so. And it is not necessarily a bad thing, seeing as we now know who 'David Eyre' is. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:57:35 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert McDowell Subject: Suffocate? -Reply A note on where humidity or moisture comes from: the bees themselves. Remember we have several pound of bees respiring away all winter in that hive. If we had a 3-4 pound cat enclosed in a small box we would certainly expect to have have a build-up of moisture from the water released through the cat exhaling. Differential temperatures can cause water vapor to condense but the temperature differential doesn't create the moisture--just makes it visible to our eyes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:13:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Suffocate? >> > If this were the case, we'd also have a lot of dead Eskimos. >> >Think of the hive in the winter as a bee igloo. >> > >> I hardly think this is a good analogy. The Eskimos can get out for a walk >> around!!! > > No, it's not. They'd die in their sleep if there wasn't some kind of >air circulation in the igloo, that is unless they slept in short shifts >or advanced air handling systems... Sorry Dave have to cut this thread, have been "shouted at for humour on the list" if you wish to continue, try me direct!!! Regards Dave.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Suffocate? >Hi Jean-Pierre >Personally I belive it's better to have a bottom board that provides sufficient >ventilation. There are different constructions on bottomboards that will do the >job, >I think most of the humidity is produced by the bees themselves in the >metabolism when they consume the feed. Put the effort in finding a bottom construction that is efficient enought. > >Are all beekeepers in the US and Canada using top entrance during winter? >What is the reason for it when it's not needed here? The north of Sweden has >as cold winters as Canada, and probably longer (lat 65). I don't think the length of winter is the problem. Take our area, in the last 48hrs we have had 4ft (thats 1 !/2 metre of snow) My hives would be almost buried, the wind around them keeps them in a small depression. Without a top entrance the bees would be in trouble, as today it is fairly warm and brilliant sunshine. I have found that when the bees are resticted ie.no exit, they become very agitated, and the moment an exit is made they come flooding out. The bottom board you have described is a variation on a theme. I have seen them made of slatted wood, which also works. One problem is mice. As you can't see under the hives to watch for damage. Plus I firmly believe there should be air exchange, to remove moisture and CO2, needs a top entrance. My original thread on suffocation. During my experiments my winter lose has gone down to Zero, which I think speaks volumes. I have been experimenting for the last 5 or 6 years with ventilation and have come to a series of conclusions. Ventilation is a year round necessity.(helps to keep the hive dry) Top entrances (top ventilation) are essential. The best packing for bees is more bees. A big hive in the fall, comes out bigger in the spring. A well ventilated hive, by comparison is larger. Most beekeepers have 2 opinions the first is "They are right" the second "Everybody else is wrong" Finally if you put 10 beekeepers in a room, you'll get 12 ways of doing the same thing, each one will work.It would appear you take the choice that works for you!!!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:26:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Hive Moisture Has anyone investigated moisture in natural hives? Our man-made hives are typically made with a flat inside ceiling (inner cover) that often warps, bowing down. This causes condensation to stay in place and then rain down on the bees across the entire hive. A natural hive, as a general rule, probably has a curved ceiling. I am speculating that moisture that is not absorbed probably runs down the sides since there is a strong gradient involved. If it pools at the bottom, no problem. I would be interested to hear if anyone has researched this question or has some personal experience with gum hives or collecting feral hives from trees in the far northern latitudes. Certainly the Russians have experience with managed hives in trees in very cold climes. What is ther view? Have the Swedes or Norwegians kept hives in trees like the Russians have? David Morris Laurel, Md, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:29:32 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hugo Veerkamp Organization: Stichting InterWorld Subject: tropical honey conference 95/12/01 Netherlands Expertise Centre for Tropical Apicultural Resources (NECTAR) in cooperation with Utrecht University, organises: NECTAR SYMPOSIUM ON HARVEST, COMPOSITION, PROCESSING, STORAGE AND MARKETING OF HONEY IN TROPICAL APICULTURAL SYSTEMS Location: International Congress Centre Utrecht (Koninklijke Nederlandse Jaarbeurs), Beatrix Gebouw, Jaarbeursplein, Utrecht, The Netherlands, Date: Monday 18 December 1995, starting at 08:30. The objective of the NECTAR symposium on tropical honey, to be held in Utrecht at 18 December 1995, is to bring together existing information on major aspects of honey production in tropical beekeeping. We would like to deal specifically with harvest, processing, quality control, and marketing. NECTAR has realised that there is little information available about these aspects of tropical apiculture. This NECTAR activity should be a contribution to the development of tropical apiculture. The information brought together by this meeting should be useful for, and be made available to, people working in the practical field of tropical beekeeping. It is particularly important that the local beekeepers can benefit from this. NECTAR would like to invite as participants mainly persons and institutions involved in (the development of ) tropical apiculture and, if possible, specialists in different fields related to tropical honey. Honey importers and distributors are also welcome. The programme of the meeting will consist of the presentation of technical papers by a number of specialists on specific technical topics, with discussion. It is an objective of the event that these contributions are published afterwards and that this book serves as a compilation of the aspects concerning tropical honey as mentioned above. Ebtrtsance fee: NLG. 45, including coffee. This entrance fee to be paid upon arrival at the Conference Centre. Arrangements for housing and meals are made by the participants themselves. Utrecht has many good and medium-priced hotels (Holyday Inn and Scandic Crown are just next-door to the Conference Centre). Hotel reservations can be made through: vvv Utrecht, Vredenburg 90, 3511 BD Utrecht (post address: Postbox 19107, 3501 DC Utrecht) tel. 06-34-03.40.85; fax: 00-31-30- 233.14.17 =voor NECTAR, Dr. Marinus J. Sommeijer Bee Research Dept., Utrecht University P.O.Box 80.086 3508 TB Utrecht, The Netherlands Phone Office: +31-30-2535425; Residence +31-30-2734821; Fax +31-30-2720192 Email address: m.j.sommeijer@pobox.ruu.nl PROGRAMME: 0830 INSTALLATION INTRODUCTION 08:45 M.J. Sommeijer, UU, Netherlands Introduction, objectives of this NECTAR activity 09:00 E. Crane, Hon. Presid. IBRA, UK Introducing outstanding problems with tropical honeys not present in temperate-zone honeys 09:30 COFFEE BREAK HARVEST TECHNIQUES IN RELATION TO QUALITY OF PRODUCTS 10:00 M. Mutsaers, Netherlands Honey harvesting and processing techniques in Africa 10:25 K. Aidoo, Ghana Honey quality and marketing in Ghana 10:50 D. Kihwele, Tanzania Honey production systems, incl. for stingless bees, Quality control and Marketing in Tanzania 11:15 Carlos Echazaretta, UADY, Mexico Apiculture in the States of the Yucatan peninsula, Mexico: production, marketing and export 11:40 H. Arce, CINAT/UNA, Costa Rica Honey production in tropical America, effects of Africanised Honeybee invasion in Central America 12:05 LUNCH COMPOSITION AND QUALITY CONTROL 13:05 R.W.K. Punchiheva, Sri Lanka Drying High Moisture Honey in Sri Lanka 13:30 HUYNH, Tuyet Ms.; Vietnam Composition and quality of honey from Vietnam 13:55 M. Shrestha, Nepal/ J.D.Kerkvliet, Food Insp. Service, Netherlands Basic requirements for quality control of tropical honey 14:20 S.K. Komolafe, Nigeria Medicinal use of honey in Nigeria; values of African honeys 14:45 L.L.M. de Bruijn, UU, Netherlands Composition and properties of honey from stingless bees (Apidae, Meliponinae) 15:10 TEA BREAK MARKET FOR BEE PRODUCTS 15:35 DINH Tam, Vietnam/V. Mulder, Netherlands Marketing honey from various honeybee species in SE-Asia 16:00 JosHarmsen,Max Havelaar/TransFairSeal, Switzerland/Netherlands Possiblities and conditions concerning marketing tropical honey through Max Havelaar/TransFairSeal 16:25 Andrew Matheson, Director IBRA U.K. World market in relation to tropical honey 16:50 J. Beetsma, President NECTAR, LUW, Netherlands Concluding remarks, summary of major technical and economic limitations and perspectives 17:00 CLOSURE Organizing committee: W.J. Boot R. Elsendoorn P. Francke E.J. Robberts M.J. Sommeijer R. de Vries Entrance fee: 45 NLG Sponsors: Netherlands' Minister for Development Co-operation and Utrecht University prgr. dd.: 95/12/6 Please note my new EMAIL ADDRESS: m.j.sommeijer@pobox.ruu.nl ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:59:45 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "S. Gielesen" Organization: Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam Subject: Re: Hive Moisture Comments: To: David Morris > A natural hive, as a general rule, probably has a curved ceiling. I am > speculating that moisture that is not absorbed probably runs down the sides > since there is a strong gradient involved. If it pools at the bottom, no > problem. In Holland, we put something (a piece of wood) under the hive on the backside to make the hive lean over. Condensed water can flow out of the entrance. There is no top entrance and we close the bottom side with a piece of board. Under the top there is usually a piece of some insulation material; the hives are not wrapped. We don't have much snow; incidently frost -10. Sanne Gielesen. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 06:38:12 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Pollination Standards & Single Brood Chambers In a previous (maybe too long) post, I asked the following question and am still wondering if anyone has the answer: >I remember now that Kevin Ward (from California) was up here last >month and mentioned that he was using single broods and that he felt >that he was able to treat better - and cheaper - for mites and that it >didn't seem to affect his ability to get good buildup. >I though it a little peculiar and I didn't realise that this is a >general change in California. >I wonder how this affects the standards for pollinating hives? > I know our pollination standards up here specify two brood chambers. I wonder about this, seeing as pollination is becoming more important in Alberta and I'm considering getting involved sometime. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:22:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Maleta, Donald M @ VFL" Subject: Book search I have exhausted all known means to locate the following book via the internet, commercial suppliers, libraries etc. If anyone knows the whereabouts of a supplier please let me know. Bumble Bee Economics ISBN 0-674-08581-7. Thanks Don Maleta 29 Keen Rd. Linfield, Pa. 19468-1037 --- DMaleta@vfl.paramax.com Or DMaleta@aol.com --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:26:55 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Book search > I have exhausted all known means to locate the following book via the > internet, commercial suppliers, libraries etc. If anyone knows the > whereabouts of a supplier please let me know. > Bumble Bee Economics ISBN 0-674-08581-7. Thanks > Don Maleta 29 Keen Rd. Linfield, Pa. 19468-1037 If your list request doesn't turn it up, let me know. I may be able to dig up some way to find someone who has it, but it might take some time. So hopefully someone here will come up with a quick answer. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:03:55 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Francis Ratnieks Subject: Re: Book search Bumble Bee Economics The catalog of: Northern Bee Books Scout Bottom Farm Mytholmroyd Hebden Bridge West Yorkshire HX7 5JS England tel: 01422 882751 fax: 01422 886157 e-mail: Ruxbury@delphi.com lists the book for 11 pounds Dr. Francis L. W. Ratnieks Department of Animal & Plant Sciences University of Sheffield Sheffield S10 2TN, U.K. tel: 0114 282 4316 fax: 0114 276 0159 e-mail: F.Ratnieks@Sheffield.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:14:11 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Courtesy and Security on the Net The recent exchange on this list deeply saddens me. In these times of instant global communication we seem to occasionally forget that courtesy and professionalism should prevail and that the internet is not a private means of communication. Discussions among BEE-L members should respect the views of others. Vulgar name calling serves no useful purpose, whether directed towards an individual or the list. With respect to the assertation that the recipient of this message purposely re-distributed it to the entire list, I offer the following observations: 1) Almost everyone who uses this list has at times hit the wrong button, so we don't know whether it was intentional. 2) Personal messages from lists often spill over to other recipients, even if the message is direct back to the sender. 3) Anything posted on the Internet is public, so don't say anything that you wouldn't want the world to read. Some examples: For 6 weeks I received very personal intra-office memos from one of our largest federal agencies. I knew who was being fired, where the personnel problems were, what the agency policy was concerning sensitive issues - all because something went wrong in an agency server and I started getting "confidential" mail from around the world. You better believe that the agency fixed that problem. BEE-L does the same to me, about 95% of the messages land in my incoming folder for the list, but every day about 5-8 messages slip through, many that are not intended for the list as a whole. Worst case scenario, I was working at a facility with 1200 employees on an in-house network. One of the middle management men started to sexually harass a woman who worked for him. Only he made the mistake of sending her an obscene e-mail message. A few minutes later, 12000 other people also got to read it. Needless to say, we know whose job ended. Finally, I want to commend Allen Dick for reminding the list that this group started out to talk about bee biolgy. At no time did he say this list was only for academics, that would be pretty strange since he is a beekeeper. He did say, and I agree, that those of us in academia and research will leave the list if it strays too far from bee biology. He also reminded all of us that many messages should go to the individual, not the list. I also said that, so I don't think that is an unreasonable request. Neither of those comments seem to me to be out-of-line. They certainly don't warrant the scathing reply. What would I do if I got such a "flame". Well, my first instinct might be to post it to the group. But, I won't. However, I'd probably decide it wasn't worth my time anymore. As some have been quick to respond, those of us who are academics can go form yet another list, but that seems counter-productive. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:05:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 11 Dec 1995 to 12 Dec 1995 Jean Pierre (Chapleau), There has been too much focus on insulation and as you pointed out, not enough on humidity. I think we can not seperate the two. In the early 1980's, Szabo did some comparisons between insulated colonies and non-insulated colonies in southern Alberta, and concluded that insulation was not such an important factor as long as the colonies were in a protected, more-or-less wind free location. Of course, southern Alberta is a very dry environment where build up of humidity is not likely. As Jerry (Bromenshenk) stated recently, the dead air mass inside the hive surrounding the cluster is the primary insulator, but to optimize the insulating properties the bees must be able to remove excess moisture. Sufficient air circulation is the key to accomplish this goal. Here on the west coast where winters are extremely wet, I recommend beekeepers to place colonies well off the ground so that air can circulate underneath the hives, and have the hive tilted slightly forward to prevent water buildup on the bottomboard. In very wet conditions, I even recommend an 2" hole right in the bottom board covered with wire mesh (8-gauge). YEars ago, when I applied these holes to some colonies I was surprised that these colonies had much less dead bees covering the bottomboard in late winter than those without the auger hole. ( I should mention though that none had a top entrance). Jerry also made a cautionary remark about condensation build up with the use of some wraps. I agree and I would think that ample air circulation is the only way bees can take full advantage of the insulating properties of winter wraps. By the way, someone mentioned earlier about the Inuit ('eskimos') and their igloos, and there is some interesting information about this. The quest for the northwest passage by European explorers including Franklin, were marked by constant failure and horrendous suffering by crews because (apart from scurvy) they relied primarily on woolen clothing. Although perfectly warm when dry, it became disasterous when crews were perspiring and the clothing became wet. The Inuit had figured out centuries before that very loose clothing made of deer skin was the answer because it would breath and get rid of excess moisture. I suppose the modern equivalent is Goretex. Having said that, perhaps it is worth finding out whether a Goretex winterwrap is the ultimate answer! Paul van Westendorp pvanwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:03:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Liz Day Subject: Re: Book search According to the price list I just got from Wicwas Press, they have Bumblebee Economics for $12.95. BES & Wicwas Press PO Box 817, Cheshire CT 06410-0817. (203) 250-7575 email ljconnor@aol.com (that's an L not a One) Good luck, Liz Day LDAY@indy.net Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA ps - it's paperback ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:02:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: Upper entrance To keep with the same thread, I am curious to know at what specific time the beekeepers shut the upper entrance in the spring and force the bees to use the lower entrance. What motivates the choice? Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder vice-president du Conseil canadien du miel / Vice-president of the Canadian Honey Council 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@praline.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:14:36 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Upper entrance > To keep with the same thread, I am curious to know at what specific time the > beekeepers shut the upper entrance in the spring and force the bees to use > the lower entrance. What motivates the choice? We don't. We have gone to 1 inch auger holes in every brood chamber and leave them open season round. Only the top one ist open through the wraps in winter, though. We find this reduces drifting. When we had slits in the winter lid (inner cover) that was always a problem because closing it at a convenient time (for us) often meant disorienting the bees. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:27:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 12 Dec 1995 to 13 Dec 1995 Bumblebee Economics, 1981 by B. Heinrich is listed for $ 12.95 in the catalog of Beekeeping Education Service, Wicwas Press P.O. Box 817E Cheshire CT 06410-0817 fax/answer machine 203 250 7575 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:12:51 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: USA & Canada: Bees Wanted I just got a call from a fellow in California who is looking for 3000 colonies of bees in singles or doubles. He needs them now. A deal fell through on him. He is offering $40US for singles (5 frames bees or better) and $60US for doubles. Truckload lots are preferred, but he'll take what is offered. Call Keith at 209-277-8456 if you can help out. (Thought this might interest the group. If you think not, let me know. I'm in the process of planning a list for bee ads only) (If you like the idea - please say so too.) Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:14:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Honey Sales Today I recieved from the Web, a request for honey by the barrel. I can't help so hand it to the list. His address is Rev.Rick Epstein he tells me the buyer lives in New York City. If someone local would care for the business, please e-mail the above. I would appreciate notification if you decide to pick it up, so we don't leave this contact hanging. Regards to all, D.E. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:55:32 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Moisture in the Wintered Hive Gentlepeople: I have a question I present to this august body of beekeeping knowledge. One winter, in January, in Dayton, Ohio, I checked on my hive (one of the two I had which was still alive in January) and decided that they were light and needed fed. I promptly mixed up some syrup (2:1) and took it over and placed it over the hole in the inner cover. The temperature dropped again. A couple of weeks later, I checked on them again. I noticed brownish spotting where they obviously had been eliminating but it was ALL over the place. This was my second winter, so I didn't know what was normal but it seemed to be an overabundance of fecal matter all over the hive and ground around the hive. There were also a number of dead bees on the snow outside the upper entrance to the hive. There were no bees flying and it was a rather "warm" day. I listened and there was no sound. Being concerned I popped the top and looked inside. No bees, only a dead cluster. Fecal spotting all over the inside of the hive. I assumed after reading ABC and the HHB, that nosema must have reared its ugly head and perhaps dysentry. I couldn't tell which and it didn't matter much at that point. The bees were dead. An "oldtimer" when questioned about what might have happened, said that I had "added to much water (in the syrup)" to the hive when the bees couldn't effectively deal with it. That is the first time I had heard that it could be detrimental to my hive's health to add sugar syrup at the wrong time. Is it true? When and how is it ok to add sugar syrup to a hive? When might it be detrimental? How could the negative effects be minimized? This set of questions has bugged me (pardon the pun) since that February. Does anyone have any answers that could help me? Mark Egloff Three year veteran of Mite attacks and terrible winters and ignorance. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:19:54 +0000 Reply-To: jvermeul@mail.wincom.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Vermeulen Jan I would greatly appreciate any information on the ESA (Entomological Society of America) annual meeting in Las Vegas, Nevada. Thanks a lot Philipp jvermeul@wincom.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:10:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Upper entrance In Maryland, we have both upper and lower entrances available to the bees at all times. The only exception would be weak colonies during robbing season. Some people even create a third entrance between the queen excluder and the first super during the honey flow. The only disadvantages I have seen to having an upper entrance available at all times have been 1) robbing access (generally a non-problem it the base colony is strong), and 2) supersedure queens that appear during the nectar flow will generally use the top entrance and set up shop in the supers. Weekly super inspections generally keep that problem under control. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:20:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Pollination Standards & Single Brood Chambers Allen, There are quite a few people that run single BCs in the central valley of CA. Most that I know pollinate a great deal of the year and quite often don't ever do any extraction. They feel that they can maintain a good pollinating unit this way. It does in my opinion affect buildup of the hive. I run in 11/2 BCs for this very reason. They usually are pulling frames of brood for nucs quite often keeping the nest clear. We usually are concerned with actual frames of bees and brood when pollination contacts are made. The trend of paying based on frame count is here and ever increasing so the stipulations on boxes doesn't come up often. The method of BCs changes for some depending on if they run for a honey flow or not. You are going to find that there are many different ways that CA beekeepers run their hives. I don't think that I would say that they are now running generally in single BCs, it is quite common though. Brian Tassey Alta Apiaries Kaykin@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:06:58 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Upper entrance On Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:02:54 -0500, Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote: >To keep with the same thread, I am curious to know at what specific time the >beekeepers shut the upper entrance in the spring and force the bees to use >the lower entrance. What motivates the choice? For example in my case it is a daner of bee losses during the active season when it comes windy or stormy weather and upper entrances are not sufficient to accept the massive flow of returning bees. Lower entrances also help to direct bees to raise brood in lower parts of hives. Vladimir Ptacek ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JOHN IANNUZZI Subject: Hive Moisture B>ced combined--deal with winter moisture by placinga twig on the front rim, beneath the outer and inner coverusually before the first frost (15oct here 10 miles W of is past--about 1apr.nt, the sameffed with leaves or whatnot--nothing. BTW, two of us usemouse excluders but I NEVER do since I run my bottom boards, year round and have NEVER had a mouseproblem. (Extra expense and extra work are not my forte.)Suum cuique! John Iannuzzi PhD * "Singing masons building roofs 9772 Old Annapolis Rd * of gold." --Shakespeare Ellicott City MD 21042 usa * 20 Italian colonies ji0079@epfl2.epflbalto.org * 3-1/2 decades in beedom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:18:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Upper entrance In-Reply-To: <199512141602.LAA28567@scuzzy.praline.net> On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote: > To keep with the same thread, I am curious to know at what specific time the > beekeepers shut the upper entrance in the spring and force the bees to use > the lower entrance. What motivates the choice? My practice is to leave the wraps on as long as I can. Normally I will unwrap and close the top entrance between April 15 and May 7 (more or less). This choice of closing the enrance is motivated by my need to see what is going on and what my winter losses have been. It may be better to leave the upper entrance or even re-wrap but my management in this case is dictated by my laziness. Eric Abell email: eabell@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Gibbons, AB, T0A 1N0 Canada (403) 998 3143 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:20:54 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: USA & Canada: Bees Wanted Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <9512141714.AA15738@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> > I just got a call from a fellow in California who is looking for 3000 > colonies of bees in singles or doubles. > > He needs them now. A deal fell through on him. > > He is offering $40US for singles (5 frames bees or better) and $60US > for doubles. Truckload lots are preferred, but he'll take what is offered. > > Call Keith at 209-277-8456 if you can help out. > > (Thought this might interest the group. If you think not, let me > know. I'm in the process of planning a list for bee ads only) > > (If you like the idea - please say so too.) > I like the idea of ads included in this list. If it becomes goo many (I don't know how this might be measured) then is the time for a separate list. Eric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:08:16 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Wintering Hello Beekeepers, I'm a bit puzzled about the obvious differences in wintrering between Scandinavia where I live, and the US and Canada. That there is a need for top entrance during winter. Are we missing something here in Scandinavia? One thing I belive need to be taken into the discussion is the effect different races of bees have to winter behaviour. I think that we maybe look more into finding a suitable bee for the different lokations than designing hives to fit the climat. Most people in nothern Sweden use Carnica or the old scandinavian black bee (mellifera mellifera). There is even a projekt going on that aims to restore as much as possible of the m. mellifera genetic material because of their exellent wintering qualities. When there a long time has been a yearly import of bees from warmer climates due to the habit of killing bees in autumn and start up with packages in spring, there is a risk of ending up with unsuitable genetic characteristics in the bees in US and Canada. Some beekeepers here persists to use strains of ligustica bees that end up in a mess each spring with wet and mouldy frames and lots of dead bees. The bees recover and produce a good crop, and the beekeeper is happy. Others can't stand the mess and choose bees that winter well. Wintering is also taken under consideration when the selection for breeders is done. I like to hear your thougths on the subject. regards P-O Gustafsson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:58:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 13 Dec 1995 to 14 Dec 1995 Re upper entrances The conventional wisdom around here varies, but generally people wintering outdoors have an upper entrance, which often is closed in late spring to avoid excess bee activity from the top of the hive during inspections. Another version (wintering indoors) uses no upper entrance during winter (no snow blockage). In early spring, weak hives managed like this (always 2 boxes) don't seem to have an easy time, sometimes having to dig through a layer of cold dead mouldy bees near the entrance. They survive in spite of it perhaps. One large outfit has adopted a combined queen excluder/entrance (full width) above the brood chamber, to reduce forager traffic in the brood chamber and traffic through the excluder (feeling it damages bees). Although bee colonies process nectar through the brood chamber during light flows, it's hard to believe they do so on days the hive gains 20 or 30 pounds. There's lots of flight from these entrances during a flow, but I don't know if the nectar goes straight to the supers, as the beekeeper hopes.. Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:29:48 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert McDowell Subject: Moisture in the Wintered Hive -Reply The Motto: Fumadil B...Fumadil B...Fumadil B... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:48:55 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Whitney S. Cranshaw" Subject: Passing of Bob Simpson/Beekeeper Researcher For those who knew him, I am sad to report the recent death, on December 13, of Robert (Bob) Simpson. Bob was a long-time faculty member at Colorado State University and a beekeeper all his life. Although he taught beekeeping courses at Colorado State for years, he is perhaps best known in the industry as a teacher/mentor for several of the current top bee researcher scientists in the US. For those who wish more details, please contact me personally at: wcransha@ceres.agsci.colostate.edu Whitney Cranshaw Department of Entomology Colorado State University Ft. Collins, CO 80523 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:44:36 GMT+0100 Reply-To: anthony@iet.hist.no Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MORGAN, ANTHONY" Subject: Re: Wintering etc etc Hei all! P-O Gustafsson wrote: > One thing I belive need to be taken into the discussion is the effect different > races of bees have to winter behaviour.............clip clip > Most people in nothern Sweden use Carnica or the old scandinavian black bee > (mellifera mellifera). Here in my part of norway 99% of beekeepers have carnica bees (carniolan?) and a few have what I believe is called the western european honey bee ie. mellifera mellifera. A plea everyone one the list: Could you indicate which bee race you have when you give practical tips etc.? I know carnica, for example, are quite different in colony development etc. from for say italian bees. Such differences can be important! cheers, Tony --------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N. Morgan (Tony) Fax: +47 73 89 62 86 "Stavshagen" E-mail: anthony@iet.hist.no Midtsandan Sor-Trondelag College 7563 MALVIK Elec. Eng. Department Norway 7005 TRONDHEIM, Norway ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:05:04 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Dysentery in Hives Hi: There are several reasons for spotting in the hives. One of the reasons those of us in winter climates use upper entrances is to allow the bees to fly during warm weather to cleanse themselves. If the snow buries the entrance, the bees can't get out. I once found a hive that had sagged shut. I popped the lid up a bit and ended up covered from head to foot with yellow rain. Had on a good parka, had to send it to the dry cleaners. Hovever, there is one cause of spotty across the top bars that most of you will never see, but one that we have seen all too often. Exposure to arsenic (usually from industrial sources like smelters) produces this effect. Arsenic poisoning often culminates in death of the colony during the winter or early spring. I wouldn't worry too much about this problem unless you have bees in industrial regions or in those rare parts of the world where arsenic levels are naturally high in groundwater. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:15:45 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: stephen otrembiak Subject: Re: Dysentery in Hives In-Reply-To: ; from "Jerry J Bromenshenk" at Dec 15, 95 12:05 pm Jerry J Bromenshenk writes: > > Hi: There are several reasons for spotting in the hives. One of the > reasons those of us in winter climates use upper entrances is to allow > the bees to fly during warm weather to cleanse themselves. If the snow > buries the entrance, the bees can't get out. I once found a hive that > had sagged shut. I popped the lid up a bit and ended up covered from > head to foot with yellow rain. Had on a good parka, had to send it to > the dry cleaners. > > Hovever, there is one cause of spotty across the top bars that most of > you will never see, but one that we have seen all too often. Exposure to > arsenic (usually from industrial sources like smelters) produces this > effect. Arsenic poisoning often culminates in death of the colony during > the winter or early spring. > > I wouldn't worry too much about this problem unless you have bees in > industrial regions or in those rare parts of the world where arsenic > levels are naturally high in groundwater. I wonder if another source of arsenic could be from using pressure treated lumber in or around the hives???? ------------------- End of network mail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive > Gentlepeople: > I have a question I present to this august body of beekeeping > knowledge. By now you've possibly had lots of answers. One thing I would like to point out, you should fumigate those boxes!! Most people don't, if it was Nosema, then the spores are still present and new bees will be infected cleaning up the mess. The method of fumigation is easy. Pile all the dirty boxes and frames together (as a hive) seal all holes, place a jar lid or something similar full of 5% Acetic Acid on the bottom board. The fumes will fumigate the hive and new bees will not be recontaminated. You can have a Nosema test carried out, it's not overly expensive, it will save the cost of medication which might not be necessary. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:03:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Upper entrance >To keep with the same thread, I am curious to know at what specific time the >beekeepers shut the upper entrance in the spring and force the bees to use >the lower entrance. What motivates the choice? When I first started beekeeping again here in Canada, I did as the locals did."When in Rome, do as the Romans". So we had holes augered in the top super as a top entrance, but found it very ineffective. It is in the wrong place, as it leaves dead air in the place where the most moisture will accumulate. As somebody else has pointed out, it allows supercedure queens to get back into the hive via a top entrance.In the past we have had two queens in the same hive, one in the honey super and one below the queen excluder. An area few consider, too many entrances under certain circumstances will allow nasties access,ie, wax moths. I believe this is why we don't have a wax moth problem. We see enough of them around, but have managed to keep them out. Year round top entrances will allow bees to store pollen in the honey supers, leading to cloudy honey. Another problem I noticed, if you take off the top box to work on the bottom box, you get lots of bees in the air trying to find that top entrance. These bees haven't been smoked and can get real nasty!! Vladimer made a good point, it would shift the brood rearing down towards the bottom box, expanding the brood area. Since we modified our Langs we no longer have these problems.Our top entrance is 2" by 3/8 right in the inner cover, at the highest point of the hive, arranged so we can open and close it at will. We close them as early as we can. Usually when we do spring inspection, the bottom board is cleaned, a larger bottom entrance provided, and finally we close the top entrance. You will get a lot of bees trying to gain access in the top, but by evening they have orientated to the new entrance. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:47:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Another Oak is Felled Dear Bee Folks, I was saddened to hear of the passing of Ray Churchill, a well-known northern New York commercial beekeeper, about two weeks ago. He used to be migratory to South Carolina, in previous years. If anyone has a complete report, I would appreciate to hear it. I'm also saddened by the loss of so many old timers, without the torch being passed on. There are so few young beekeepers...... Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:57:20 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: Another Oak is Felled Dave Green writes: I'm also saddened by the loss of so many old timers, without the torch being passed on. There are so few young beekeepers...... Which is why we should help the newcomers who appear on the list...... John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:33:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive Mark, I have not really had much good experiences feeding bees in the dead of winter. I'm in CA, central valley. I,ve always tried to make sure that the bees had plenty of stores prior to really cold, wet weather by feeding or nectar flow. It just always seemed to be a great way to rid myself of weak hives and didn't seem to help much. If the weather turns and becomes unseasonably warm and they break cluster I have put feed on then. You need to realize that this is the area where we celebrate the "Brown Christmas" and that has a great deal to do with it I'm sure. Maybe someone could shed some light on this for us. I just know what I've seen in the past and I try to avoid feeding in those months. I know of others that will feed dry sugar for emergencies and the added moisture in syrup like you said seems reasonable to me. Hopes this helps some Brian Tassey Alta Apiaries Kaykin@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:30:39 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Dysentery in Hives In-Reply-To: <9512151915.AA14223@scott.skidmore.edu> from "stephen otrembiak" at Dec 15, 95 02:15:45 pm Pressure treated wood should not be a problem unless you build your hives out of it or water collects on it (e.g., use of pressure treated wood to build a barrel to provide water or hive stands that catch water). Arsenic in pressure treated wood should not be a problem unless the bees are chewing on the wood or unless somehow the arsenic is being leached out of the wood into bee food or water. Industrial sources of arsenic emit some very toxic forms as a fine particulate, so fine it acts almost like a gas. Arsenic poisoning seems to occur after long-term gradual accumulation (which may explain the winter kills) or during very dry periods of the summer. During wet summers, less arsenic blows around and less gets taken up by the bees. Dry years and the bees get it from the air on from plant surfaces where it is deposited. Arsenic in water is a more obvious route of poisoning, but one that we only occassionally encounter. Cheers Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula jjbmail@selway,umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:40:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Wintering P-O Gustafsson wrote >When there a long time has been a yearly import of bees from warmer climates >due to the habit of killing bees in autumn and start up with packages in spring, >there is a risk of ending up with unsuitable genetic characteristics in the bees >in US and Canada. > >Some beekeepers here persists to use strains of ligustica bees that end up >in a mess each spring with wet and mouldy frames and lots of dead bees. >The bees recover and produce a good crop, and the beekeeper is happy. >Others can't stand the mess and choose bees that winter well. Wintering is >also taken under consideration when the selection for breeders is done. I agree with your observations. We have not imported package bees into Ontario for a number of years. There has been some queens brought in, but the information I have is that they are not very successful. Local bees are better, as they are bred for that particular climate. I don't believe that ligustica are solely responsible for your wet and mouldy frames etc.We have some ligustica (Italian) in our bees and they winter well. I would suggest that wetness is caused by lack of top ventilation, and mould is a byproduct of damp. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive Brian Tassey wrote >avoid feeding in those months. I know of others that will feed dry sugar for >emergencies and the added moisture in syrup like you said seems reasonable to >me. Hopes this helps some I was always told, "feed the bees in fall, not winter". One of the problems of the bees is to render the water out of anything you feed them. If they don't or can't because you fed them too late, then they are feeding on wet stores. That's where the dysentry comes from, poor stores. Nosema will cause fecal spotting, this will show, subject to the severity, as the occaisional marks. Whereas dysentry will be running down the outside of the hive, if you have top entrances it will be spread all round the hole. The cure, clean new frames and boxes, proper strength sugar (2-1) not caramelised, just in case Fumidil B. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:12:34 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Wintering > P-O Gustafsson wrote >>Some beekeepers here persists to use strains of ligustica bees that end up >>in a mess each spring with wet and mouldy frames and lots of dead bees. >>The bees recover and produce a good crop, and the beekeeper is happy. >>Others can't stand the mess and choose bees that winter well. Wintering is >>also taken under consideration when the selection for breeders is done. David Eyre replied >I agree with your observations. We have not imported package bees into >Ontario for a number of years. There has been some queens brought in, but >the information I have is that they are not very successful. Local bees are >better, as they are bred for that particular climate. > I don't believe that ligustica are solely responsible for your wet >and mouldy frames etc.We have some ligustica (Italian) in our bees and they >winter well. I would suggest that wetness is caused by lack of top >ventilation, and mould is a byproduct of damp. Yes, I agree. There are also strains of ligustica that winter well. But in general I have the feeling that other races (m. carnica, m. mellifera) are better suited for colder climates with longer time confined to the hive. I find it strange that you have bees flying in winter when there is snow. It only happens here to hives that are in bad condition and need to fly out to deficate. First flight doesn't come until most of the snow has melted and temp reach 10-12 degrees celsius. But I guess climatic differences are the reason. Regards P-O Gustafsson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 22:57:29 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Passing the torch >Dave Green writes: > I'm also saddened by the loss of so many old timers, without the torch >being passed on. There are so few young beekeepers...... and JOhn Day writes: >Which is why we should help the newcomers who appear on the list...... I AGREE. I would to also suggest that beekeepers donate time to give demonstations in schools. These students will be the future beekeepers. I have been teaching beekeeping to elementary and high school students for the past 15 years. I dress in the full outfit and demo all the tools and equipment to describe why bees are important to mankind. I also bring in a live 2 frame observation hive as part of my show and tell on beekeeping. I have laminated a collection of the 12 Study Prints and Life Cycle Charts to help with the presentation. The presentation takes about 30 to 40 minutes (average student attention span). The impact on the students is impressive, not to mention the number of calls I get from parents for swarm pick-up in the springtime. :) Paul Cronshaw DC Hobby Beekeeper and Beekeeping Evangelist Santa Barbara, CA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 11:03:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Wayne E. Esaias" Subject: New Hampshire Beekeepers? My nephew (28 yrs) is awaiting a beginners outfit for his Christmas present. He lives in Hampstead, (S.E.) New Hampshire. I would like to provide him with a local contact, preferably a local beekeeping organization. Conditions and practices in NH are a lot different from here in Maryland. Is anyone on the list from that area, or know of any clubs, etc. from whom he can get up to speed on the timing of nectar flows, etc? Thanks. Wayne Esaias 6971 Mink Hollow Rd. Highland, MD 20777 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:12:58 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darlene Scribilo Subject: apitherapy contact Can anyone help me in the Bee List to find the addresses and contact persons of the German and Lithuania Apitherapy Societies. Thank you. Michael Simics dags@wimsey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Derk Phelps Subject: Accounting Program for Beekeepers Hello, I am looking for suggestions for a accounting program for our bee business, we are going official now, We have Ibm compatible PC's with a 486 dx66 processor. I am open and in need of any and all suggestions. I would rather stay away from Cyma type stuff, too expensive ! thanks for all your help. Derk Phelps Phelps Honey Farm dpBees@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 22:11:28 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Slagle Subject: Accounting Program for Beekeepers I uses Quick books 3.1 for my farm. and it seems to be very good. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 22:52:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive Dave Eyre writes that dysentry (Nosema) comes from poor stores. I assume by that he means from stores with too high a moisture content. I respectfully disagree. Remember that bees must dilute their honey to about 50% moisture before thay can eat it, so even 15% moisture honey is diluted to the "poor stores" catagory before it is used by the bees. Also, at least in Maryland we have been taught that high moisture in a hive is caused by poor ventilation, not by feeding weak sugar syrup at an inopportune time. As an engineer, I can tell you that in a well ventilated hive, none of the normal methods of feeding sugar syrup will noticably increase the relative humidity in the hive. The danger from feeding weak syrup is that it may stimulate the queen to lay eggs (as if it were a nectar flow) during the winter period when brood rearing is not desired. In fact, some of us will begin deliberately feeding 1/1 syrup in late February to stimulate brood rearing in preparation for the start of our nectar flow in late April. As to when to feed the bees, I agree with David that Fall is preferred, but in general any colony that has less than three frames of honey must be fed promptly, regardless of the season. Cold weather feeding can be tricky because the bees may not be able to move to the feed, but it can be done (at least in Maryland's climate). W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:58:16 +0000 Reply-To: P.Wright@ed.ac.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wright Subject: Appealing to the Young I recently conducted a survey for the Scottish Beekeepers Association (issue of October 1995) which reported on various aspects of members experience including the age structure of the membership and the age of new recruits. Beekeeping, at least in Scotland, seems to be very much an activity of the over 50's!! I wonder if this is universal? I have tried to impress on my national body the need to embark on programmes which will attract more young beekeepers and especially schoolchildren. I learnt my own beekeeping at my very enlightened local grammar school, where in my time at the school some 20 plus boys passed the preliminary exam of the BBKA and were then rewarded with a hive of bees donated by a local commercial beekeeper. This seems to me exactly the kind of scheme which should be promoted thrue local associations together with encouragement to hold meetings directed at those who know nothing about bees and beekeeping. I wpuld be interested to hear from others about relevant experiences in promoting beekeeping in schools and to children.Please send your comments directly to me. P.Wright@ed.ac.uk Many thanks, Peter Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:56:09 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Patch Byrne Subject: fungus on bees I joined this list in the summer and was given some usefull stuff. I am now back in the UK and would like to recieve any relevant information. Here's my story . . . . . . I am a third year biology student at Royal Holloway University of London. Over the summer I was working at the International Institute for Tropical Ariculture (IITA), Biological Control Centre for Africa, Cotonou, Benin, West Africa. My project at IITA was to test the entomopathogen METARHIZIUM FLAVOVIRIDE for detrimental effects on APIS MELLIFERA ADANSONII. It is hoped that the fungus will soon be used as a biocontrol agent against locusts and grasshoppers. Information on the West African honey bee I worked with appears to be scarce, as seems to be information on bees suseptability to entomopathogens. Any information you can forward me through E-mail/post would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance Patrick Byrne. My home address is : snail mail: Harefield Letchworth Lane Letchworth Herts. SG6 3ND. England. Email: P.byrne@rhbnc.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:57:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerard Worrell Subject: Accounting for the 'Bee Biz' In-Reply-To: <199512180502.AAA16365@cbl.cees.edu> Derk Phelps asked about accounting programs for going to a "for profit operation". Depending on the complexity of the operation, you can also use Quicken. It allows for tracking of transactions, check writing (not required but available) and produces some very good reports. The output can also be directly used as input to several tax preparation packages. In several states around Maryland, The Cooperative Extension Service has provided classes on using Quicken for Farm Operations. In addition to that I use simple spreadsheets to track amount of honey sold by jar size, cost of jars,etc. There's more than one way to handle the books just like there's more than one method of raising bees. Jerry Worrell (worrell@CBL.CEES.EDU) Gerard P.Worrell Beekeeper with 25 colonies (410)257-3267 Dunkirk,MD USA Pres. Assoc. of Southern MD Beekeepers Life member MD State Beekeepers Association,VP for Calvert Co. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:02:10 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "I'll stop procrastinating....TOMORROW" <"mkots3::senneville"@AIMHI.ENET.DEC.COM> Subject: Re: New Hampshire Beekeepers? Comments: To: "bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu"@aimhi.ENET.dec.com Comments: cc: senneville@aimhi.ENET.dec.com Wayne: This is your lucky day. My name is Guy senneville and I am The Vice President of Pawtuckaway Beekeepers. We meet in Candia NH which is only about 1/2 hr from Hampstead (probably less). Pawtuckaway would certainly be the most local club to your nephew and we would be happy to to welcome another new member. We offer an 8 week "short course" (one day a week) beginning in march which I would highly recommend as it also includes a "bee buddy". If your interested contact me directly at senneville@mko.mts.dec.com. Regards Guy PS: My apologies to the group if this is going out to everyone, my intention was to send mail directly to Wayne. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:20:19 -0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Venti Pierdamiano at ITPMIS41 1995/12/18 18:03" Subject: Info Request Please give me information on how to get bulletins from your mail server. My E-mail is IT12445@itmlnemg.snads.philips.nl Thank you and Regards Pierdamiano Venti ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:59:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive Bill Miller wrote > Dave Eyre writes that dysentry (Nosema) comes from poor stores. I >assume by that he means from stores with too high a moisture content Whoa! back up a bit Bill. I didn't write that. I didn't say that dysentry (Nosema) are caused by poor stores. These are different problems. Nosema is caused by a spore which attacks the bees intestine. The thread at the time was discussing fecal spotting. I still maintain that dysentry is caused by too wet stores! If you feed a large quantity of 2-1 sugar in the fall, the bees will take it down. Now if there is a cold snap and they haven't had time to deal with it all, there is the danger that some will ferment, as sugar in water will do. Last year we used baby nucs(Queen rearing) for the first time. One failed, so we shook the bees out, and recovered the box, within a few days the unused sugar was fissing, a sure sign of fermentation. Now if the bees got to it, you can be sure dysentry would result. Another way would to be to feed caramelised sugar or honey, either by stupidity or lack of knowledge. You'd be amazed at the antics some beekeepers get to ,to save a dollar.!! >engineer, I can tell you that in a well ventilated hive, none of the normal >methods of feeding sugar syrup will noticably increase the relative humidity >in the hive. Where does the water the bees are evaporating out, go to. Agreed, in a well ventilated hive out through the top. But you must agree from 2 gallons they pull out a lot of moisture, so it has to raise the humidity of the hive. I'm sure somebody would know how much. > The danger from feeding weak syrup is that it may stimulate the queen to >lay eggs (as if it were a nectar flow) during the winter period when brood >rearing is not desired. This why the rule is 'Feed in the fall"! My view is pollen substitute in the spring, sugar in the fall. But that's another thread. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:05:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive David, I would be interested in what you would have to say on the rule of Sugar syrup in the fall, pollen supplement/substitute in the spring. If you use a supplement/substitute would you be willing to share it? I've had problems with the mix becoming hard as a rock when I've used soy-based materials. How did the baby nucs work, are they worth the extra expense? Brian Tassey Alta Apiaries Kaykin@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Accounting Program for Beekeepers Derk, I've used QuickBooks for about 3 years and am satisfied with it. It's simple to set up, does all my invoicing, I can track all expenses as they pertain to specific jobs so there some room for to compare profit margins. It comes in all formats. It's produced by the same people that make Quicken. All the basics of business operations are integrated into one package. I have a 486 DX2 66 and it runs fine. Brian Tassey Alta Apiaries Kaykin@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:18:36 GMT+0100 Reply-To: anthony@iet.hist.no Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MORGAN, ANTHONY" Subject: Re: Barras hive base, overwintering Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:04:40 +0100 P-O Gustafsson wrote: > There are very few beekeepers here (Sweden) that use top entrance during winter. > Personally I belive it's better to have a bottom board that provides sufficient > ventilation. There are different constructions on bottomboards that will do the > job, more or less complicated in construction. One of the best is probably > the "barras" bottom that I think originate from Norway. Tony would be more > suited to explain about it. The barras baseboard was designed by Barras here in Norway and introduced commercially as part of the Norwegian standard hive system. Many individuals and local producers have built baseboards based upon the same principle and this type of baseboard is now known generally as the . NOTE: (1) my comments only apply to practice in mid-Norway ie. the counties of North and South Trondelag which are situated respectively to the North and the South of Trondheim Fjord. Latitude 63 deg 30 N. (2) almost without exception the bee race here is A.m. carnica (3) almost without exception hives here sit on some sort of support which raises them up from the ground approx 0.5m. When we transport them to the coastal heather heaths in Aug/Sept we usually have ready placed out transport pallets cut in half (2 hives per half pallet) which gives a good air space underneath. (4) The norwegian standard hive (universally used) has a bottom bee space. There are essentially two type of base used here: ----- the older shallow, direct entry, non-ventilated type ----- the deep, indirect entry, ventilated netting base. Netting Base: The base entrance admits bees to a chamber whose floor is metal netting and whose ceiling is a loose plywood baffle plate. This ply plate has a slot cut down each side which gives bees acess to the bottom of the hive. The base normally has enough depth over the plate for a debris collection tray (used over winter for varroa detection). The plate is easily removed for cleaning -- some of the more fancy variants make it possible to slide the plate and debris tray out from the back of the base without the need to lift the hive body. The plate can be removed for enhanced ventilation during transport - in extremely hot weather augmented with a ventilated top board. Overwintering techniques vary for the two types of base board. In both cases top insulation is provided usually by a soft of rockwool 4 to 6 in thick constrained by an outer wood frame placed directly over the the frame tops. Usually 2 or 3 strips of wood are placed under the insulation to provide a certain amount of top bee space for movement of the cluster. Traditional wisdom locally has it that . Non-ventilated base: the insulation is contained in sackcloth (burlap?) and the hive roof is held raised slightly to provide the required ventilation. Netting base: the insulation is wrapped in plastic (mine are wrapped in black refuse bag plastic). In my experience of use of the netting base and air tight top packing moisture is not a problem and survival rate so far has been 100%. I hope this rather verbose description is of interest to someone out there! Anyone confused by the description or interested in more details should take contact and I can try to produce a drawing of the base. Cheers, Tony. --------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N. Morgan (Tony) Fax: +47 73 89 62 86 "Stavshagen" E-mail: anthony@iet.hist.no Midtsandan Sor-Trondelag College 7563 MALVIK Elec. Eng. Department Norway 7005 TRONDHEIM, Norway ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:56:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kim Flottum Subject: Subscription Info Hello, Please send subscription information to the address below. My information seems to be inaccurate, and I can't lay my hands on the current FAQ, etc. Thanks. This is one of those new people we've been talking about. 102663.2276@compuserve.com Kim Flottum ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: fermented honey >within a few days the unused sugar was fissing, a sure sign of fermentation. >Now if the bees got to it, you can be sure dysentry would result. Another >way would to be to feed caramelised sugar or honey, I am glad you mentioned this. I am buying several hundred supers from a fellow and about 20 of them have fermented honey in them. He said I could just let the bees rob the honey for stores. Is this correct, or will my girls get sick? I have not been able to find anything in the books... God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Fla. U.S.A., 83 hives ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:48:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD E BONNEY Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive In-Reply-To: <951217225241_75062370@mail02.mail.aol.com> Nosema and dysentery are not the same thing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:13:17 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Patch Byrne Subject: African bees In-Reply-To: <951219075653_94252797@mail02.mail.aol.com> Does anybody out there have any information on the West African bee species APIS MELLIFERA ADANSONII? If you have any papers or refferences please forward them to me -- P.byrne@rhbnc.ac.uk THANX Patch. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:20:33 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Stressors, long and meandering I've been enjoying the various discussions that are going on, and particularly appreciating some of the posts from newcomers and some who have been here for a while, but not said much. I've fed 2:1 (and more dilute) sugar syrup all winter long, many years ago. Others have doen so too. I can't say that I noticed any moisture effects at all. As far as dysentary is concerned, I saw no unusual levels. What I did see was that the bees just did not amount to much in the spring - and I attribute that to several things: For one, I wouldn't have been feeding if the bees were well fed in the fall. Thus I presume that the bees may not have had an opportunity to raise the high quality bees that are necessary for overwintering. Second, there was no - or little - feed to cover pollen stores that are absolutely necessary to have good spring buildup. They ate their pollen earlier on, when it did possibly more harm than good. Third, consuming sugar syrup (sucrose) is hard on bees - it ages them, I'm told. Honey stores would have been better. Fourth, as Eric pointed out, feed provides a heat reservoir to help moderate the hive temperature furing winter Fifth, the combination of feeding and lack of honey in the combs tends to stimulate undesirable flying and consequent dwindling. These observations are true for my area, and as a result, YMMV. As far a fermentation and such is concerned, I have to say that my observations are that a good hive of good bees in the spring and summer can handle a fair bit of fermentation with no apparent ill effects. On the other hand, I suspect that it may be a stressor and could be lethal if accompanied by other stress factors. My approach to beekeeping has changed over the years. In a nutshell, I guess this is where my thinking is today: There are many environmental factors that can be regarded as beneficial forces - or their opposite, stressors. Bees condition, performance, and survival depends on the balance between these factors. Few stressors alone are lethal, but given a dearth of beneficial forces (I need a better name here), they may gain influence. A list of stressors would include: AFB, EFB, chalkbrood, sacbrood, septicemia, paralysis, nosema, etc. Mites, Excessive and continuing dampness Cold winds and low temperatures Predators Mice Lack (or excess) of ventillation Lack (or excess) of space Shortage of feed near the cluster Toxic or contaminated feed (honey, syrup, or pollen) Poorly balanced nutrition Unbalance of population age demographics or lack of population Clumsy and inept management by the beekeeper Add you favourite bane here. . . A list of beneficial forces includes: Honey flow (the best) Warm dry weather Long days (June 21st around here) Medication - if appropriate Feeding (as a substitute for a flow) Add your favourite here. . . As you can see, the list of stressors is long, the list of helpers is short - if we leave out the negatives of the previous list. When these stressors gang up on a hive, then we see results that we ofen blame on the most obvious agent. Nonetheless, it is my experience ands that usually there are several factors combining to cause illness or death of a colony. In my opinion, the factor that is most often responsible at some point in the chain of events is starvation. Shortage of an essential food at some point during the year weakens bees for quite some time after, leading to conditions that are bad for the beekeeper and worse for the bees. At risk of sounding like someone offering a panacea, I must say that feeding bees spring and fall is essential in our area to get the best out of them. When bees are well fed, a lot of the other problems tend to fade back a bit. The more a beekeeper can do to increase the good influences and manage the stressors, the better the bees will do. I'd like to see what others can add to the lists above. And to answer Kelly's question from my perspective: Consider the other stressors bearing on the bees at the time when you give them the supers. If other factors are favourable, then don't worry. They can bear a certain load of stress with absolutely no bad effects (a honey flow is a stress in that it wers the bees out, but the good effects far outweigh the bad). But when the stresses add up to a certain point, the hive strarts a downward spiral. And in regards some other postings: >Some beekeepers here persists to use strains of ligustica bees that end up > >in a mess each spring with wet and mouldy frames and lots of dead > >bees. >.We have some ligustica (Italian) in our bees > and they winter well. FWIW we have lots of Italians that winter very well, but one year we bought 100 packages of New Zealand Italians and they nearly all perished the first winter - while other hives wintered normally, so I guess it depends on the italian strain. They were also the yellowest and most vicious bees I ever worked in all my years. In defence of NZ, I am sure all their bees are not like that. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:32:08 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Upper entrance > When I first started beekeeping again here in Canada, I did as the locals > did."When in Rome, do as the Romans". So we had holes augered in the top > super as a top entrance, but found it very ineffective. It is in the wrong > place, as it leaves dead air in the place where the most moisture will > accumulate. Actually, this is precisely why I've gone to the auger holes. In our area, we have very dry conditions and strong winds, and I've been concerned that the slit on the top lets out *too much* moisture and heat. Measurements here, however show no appreciable difference in winter success. > As somebody else has pointed out, it allows supercedure queens to > get back into the hive via a top entrance.In the past we have had two queens > in the same hive, one in the honey super and one below the queen excluder. A bonus! ;) Two queen colonies without the work! Actually we have this less than 1% of the time. And we had it before we had auger holes too. > Year round top entrances will allow bees to store pollen in the > honey supers, leading to cloudy honey. We don't have auger holes - or any other holes if we can help it above the excluder. Our brood chambers are never mixed with our supers. > Another problem I noticed, if you > take off the top box to work on the bottom box, you get lots of bees in the > air trying to find that top entrance. These bees haven't been smoked and can > get real nasty!! Ain't this truth! > Vladimer made a good point, it would shift the brood rearing down > towards the bottom box, expanding the brood area. Haven't really noticed this - one way or the other. > Since we modified our Langs we no longer have these problems.Our top > entrance is 2" by 3/8 right in the inner cover, at the highest point of the > hive, arranged so we can open and close it at will. We used that for 15 years and now we are moving away from that. It seems ironic. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: The Aging Beekeeper In-Reply-To: <01HYB8OK8B0I8WWGGH@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> Continuing the thread about the aging population of beekeepers. Yes, most are over 50. I don't put an exclamation point, however, I see this as the norm and nothing much to get excited about. I don't believe that the population is running out of youth and beekeeping will fade away. The reason is that many more young people are becoming 50 to replace the other oldsters in the craft. We are seeing new people becoming interested and yes, many are that age. They now have the time, energy and financial resources (luxury?) to work with bees. Younger people are too strapped for time and money. The rage in the U.S. now is all about the aging population and what these people are going to do. Maybe our efforts over the years is about to be rewarded. All those grade- school kids we did bee demonstrations for over the years might become a bumper crop of baby boomer beekeepers. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Malcolm (Tom) Sanford Extension Apiculturist University of Florida Mailing Address: Bldg 970, Hull Rd., Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Voice phone 904/392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX 904/392-0190 INTERNET:MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU ==================================================================== Publisher of APIS -- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm Instructor of Principles of Entomology, ENY 3005-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/eny3005/eny3005syl.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:42:44 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US Subject: The Aging Beekeeper When considering the rising average age of beekeepers, let us not forget that the average age of the general population is also on the increase. Tom Elliott Cook Inlet Beekeepers Association Anchorage, Alaska ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:37:52 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Francis Ratnieks Subject: The non-old Beekeeper A number of years ago (c.9) I taught queen rearing in Jamaica. The people interested were all young adults. Beekeeping was popular to learn as it was perceived as a way to make money, given that salaries were low but honey was valuable (world price). In the US and UK most people are interested in beekeeping as a hobby. However, it may be true that people in these countries getting involved in a commercial way are younger. Dr. Francis L. W. Ratnieks Department of Animal & Plant Sciences University of Sheffield Sheffield S10 2TN, U.K. tel: 0114 282 4316 fax: 0114 276 0159 e-mail: F.Ratnieks@Sheffield.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:10:50 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Erik Seielstad Subject: Holiday time hi everyone- I wanted to remind everyone that the holiday season is upon us, and if you will be away from your e-mail for an extended period, you may wish to signoff the bee-l mailing list (or at least tell the listserv to hold your mail.) to get the listserv to hold your mail, send mail to 'listserv@cnsibm.albany.edu'. in the body of the letter, send the command: set bee-l nomail When you are back from vacation, you can send the command: set bee-l mail to signoff, send e-mail to 'listserv@cnsibm.albany.edu' in the body of the letter send the command: signoff bee-l to resubscribe after you've signed off, send mail containing: subscribe bee-l your-firstname your-lastname for example: subscribe bee-l jane doe -erik -- Erik Seielstad | Systems Programmer/Analyst Internet: erik@acspr1.acs.brockport.edu | SUNY College at Brockport ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:43:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Moisture in the Wintered Hive Brian Tassey wrote >I would be interested in what you would have to say on the rule of Sugar >syrup in the fall, pollen supplement/substitute in the spring. If you use a >supplement/substitute would you be willing to share it? I've had problems >with the mix becoming hard as a rock when I've used soy-based materials. How >did the baby nucs work, are they worth the extra expense? One spring, very early I observed bees on my bird feeder, rolling around picking up seed dust that made me adjust my view of spring stimulation. I always ensure that my hives have plenty of stores in the fall. It is, I believe false economy to keep the bees tight on stores over winter, to save a few dollars, and risk losing a hive to winter kill. I had placed feed on the hives 1-1 sugar, but they didn't want it. One morning I watched dozens of bees rolling around picking up seed dust, it was very cold. In fact I was amazed to see bees flying. So , my logic asked, if they are prepared to fly approx 500 yards, would it not be simpler to supply it closer to the hives? So I made up a covered shallow feeder, added regular pollen substitute, and the bees went berserk. Within a short time that feeder was covered in bees, picking up the pollen, and the hustle and bustle was fun to watch. Jean didn't believe they could fly they were so laden down. In the meantime the sugar wasn't touched. I believe the trigger to increased brood rearing is amongst other things the influx of pollen. We try to arrange matters approx 6 weeks before the first nectar flow. Final point, to stop it going hard I only put out enough for them to pick up quickly. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:43:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: fermented honey >>within a few days the unused sugar was fissing, a sure sign of fermentation. >>Now if the bees got to it, you can be sure dysentry would result. Another >>way would to be to feed caramelised sugar or honey, > > >I am glad you mentioned this. I am buying several hundred supers from a >fellow and about 20 of them have fermented honey in them. He said I could >just let the bees rob the honey for stores. Is this correct, or will my >girls get sick? I have not been able to find anything in the books... I wouldn't do it! I am a firm believer in only feeding my bees good stuff. Are you sure it is fermented? There is a strange yeasty sweet smell if it has turned.Has anybody else had experience of feeding old honey, and it's effect on the bees. Joke coming up!!! Why do beekeepers refer to" my girls" when there should be only one? Explain!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:49:57 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: The Aging Beekeeper In-Reply-To: from "Malcolm T. Sanford" at Dec 19, 95 11:37:51 am Tom Sanford's point is well taken. I'll add another. The largest numbers of beekeepers are hobbiest, and many take up the hobby when they approach retirement age. In my part of the world, the largest numbers of colonies are kept by very large commercial beekeepers, ones who run several thousand colonies. These are usually family businesses. Like all agricultural pursuits, the kids often think other ventures are more glamorous, pay more, or take less work. However, whenever one of our established beekeepers sells out, there is a customer waiting. Usually one that is tired of spray planes killing bees, etc. One never knows how a beekeeper might get started, but most new ones that make a living at it started as a helper or apprentice while in high school. One of our commercial operations is run by a fellow with an unusual last name, a name that didn't fit with any of the long term beekeeping families in Montana. I asked him one day how he got into the business - and he said he married into it. When the beekeeper retired, he bought his father-in-laws operation. Only along the way, he got divorced and re-married. Kept the bees though! Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway,umt.edu P.S. I find that we can get the kids interested in other issues, such as cutting bees for mites (better than lawn mowing for pocket cash); use of computers to assist beekeeping, beekeeping home pages, etc. It shows a different side to beekeeping and kind of sneaks up on them. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:06:27 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hugo Veerkamp Organization: Stichting InterWorld Subject: fungus on bees Comments: cc: P.byrne@rhbnc.ac.uk dear P. Byrne ! > I joined this list in the summer and was given some > usefull stuff. I am now back > in the UK and would like to recieve any relevant > information. > Here's my story . . . . . . Try Amiga bee bbs ( London), using computer & modem: system location sysop AMIGABEE BBS LONDON UK STEVEN TURNER modem : +44 81.695.5328 We exchange many textfiles, also on bee diseases etc. sincerely, Hugo -- \|/ @ @ Hugo Veerkamp ----------oOO-(_)-OOo--------------------------------------------- | Email: BEENET INTERNATIONAL | | hug.bee@beenet.iwg.nl | mail : the Bee bbs | | | P.O. BOX 51008 | | | 1007EA AMSTERDAM | | | The Netherlands | | Beenet : 240:31/0 | modem: +31 20 6764105 | | Fidonet: 2:2801/28 | voice: +31 20 6715663 | ------------------------------------------------------------------ *%\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\^/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%* * X ! X ! X ! X ! . ! X ! X ! X ! X * * O O O O .|. O O O O * * Vrolijk Kerstfeest! -*- Gelukkig Nieuwjaar! * * Athbhliain Faoi Mhaise! '|` _ Happy New Year! * * Inpakaramaana Vidumurai! *:* ("D Chag Sameach! * * Frohliche Weihnachten! * . * ~(=r Boas Festas! * * Sarbatori Fericite! ** ** .../__\ Gut Yontif! * * Joyous Solstice! *** o *** [HV] Iyi YIllar! * * Mele Kalikimake! *\ O * Hyvaeae Lomaa! * * Merry Christmas! ** \\ ** Wesolych Swiat! * * Happy Hanukkah! *** \\ *** Stastny Novy Rok! * * Pari Artsagourt! * o \\ * Kellemes Unnepeket! * * Shub Naya Baras! ** O \\** Blwyddyn Newydd Dda! * * Vesele Vanoce! ***\\ o \*** Ching Chi Shen Tan! * * Feliz Navidad! * \\ o * Felichan Jarfinon! * * Joyeux Noel! ** o \\ O ** Joy to the World * * Bom Natal! **** \\ o **** - And to All a * * God Jul! ** o o \\ o ** Good Night! * * Cheers! *** O \\ *** Ein gutes neues Jahr!* * *:D o_ ***************************** e@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * _ <' )~ ___ ##### _v_ @@@"""""""""""""* * /<~ ["""] V o [___] _@_ #####__|~|_ A @" ___ ___________ * %'= @|HHH|[~] U |\ /|/^^^\##[{}{}{}{](") ! II__[w] | [i] [z] | * %' ) /%|HHH||$|/V\|XXX|~~~~~##[}{}{}{}](:)<*> {======|_|~~~~~~~~~| * %(__6 |==D|HHH||$|\^/|/ \|=====##[{}{}{}{](:) V /oO--000'"`-OO---OO-' *%\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\^/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%$%*\@/*%* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:02:37 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Holiday time > hi everyone- > > I wanted to remind everyone that the holiday season is upon us, > and if you will be away from your e-mail for an extended period, you > may wish to signoff the bee-l mailing list (or at least tell the > listserv to hold your mail.) And if you want to read it from somewhere else during the holidays, try: http://www.internode.net/~allend/logs.html I try to keep the latest log up to date. If it is not right up, it will be current within a day or two. Season's Greeting to all. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:17:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Wayne E. Esaias" Subject: Re: Info from New Hampshire Thanks for everyone who responded to my request for info NH beekeepers and organizations. for my nephew. Beekeeping seems in good hands in the Granite State. Wayne Esaias Highland MD. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:33:26 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Moisture in Hives: -- Thanks Gentlepeople: This has been fascinating! I am a very recent subsriber to the List and a rather new beekeeper and I asked a question several weeks ago about feeding syrup in the winter. I expressed some concern about adding moisture in the hive at a time when the bees couldn't process it and "dry" it out. Collectivly, you all have given me lots to mull over, all of it good stuff. I think, in trying to summarize, for myself at least that what I have heard is: (1) Late winter syrup feeding is not the best way to ensure survival. Fall feeding in order to provide adequate stores in the is best. Dry sugar is the next best if needed. (I must say though several persons stated that the bees "dilute" honey to a 50/50 honey/water mixture anyway before consuming and implied that syrup could be fed any time. Conflicting information! Hmmmm.....maybe this conflict is based on the location of the bees.) (2) Upper entrances (vents) are needed to allow moisture buildup to escape. I think that from what you have offered, the higher the vent in the hive the better. (i.e. vents in inner cover rather than auger holes in the upper bodies) (3) There is a form of bottom board called "Barres" after the gentleman who designed it that somehow provides ventilation. (I would like more information on this one, if anyone can help.) I now have a lot more information than I could have gotten in several months of reading magazines and books. You represent a wealth of experience and education that my three years can surely take advantage of. The unfortunate part of this is that, as questions are answered, new ones take their place. Can one have to much ventilation? What if the inner cover was modified to include screened openings and the telescoping cover lifted 1/4" thereby allowing plenty of venting space at the very top of the hive? Would this increase or decrease survivability? Would it increase or decrease evaporation of water and conversion into honey during honey flows? Thank you again for sharing all of your thoughts. Even when the information sometimes conflicts, I find it extremely valuable. Have happy and safe holidays! Mark Egloff Dayton, Ohio, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:37:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Wayne E. Esaias" Subject: pollen feeding fun David Eyre mentioned the fun of watching bees take pollen. I have used one of the small bird feeders that attaches directly to a window with suction cups to feed pollen substitute in the winter. On good flying days, one can watch all the behavior close at hand. It helps if its mounted on a south facing window. Mine is colored yellow to attract the first scouts. Re filling is simple, best done at night. Wayne Esaias Highland, MD. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:21:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Book search Press offers the book yfor $18.95 plus postage. Let me know if you want further information. Larry Connor ljconnor@aol.com BES and Wicwas Press ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:10:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: pollen feeding fun >David Eyre mentioned the fun of watching bees >take pollen. I have used one of the small >bird feeders that attaches directly to a window >with suction cups to feed pollen substitute in the winter. >On good flying days, one can watch all the >behavior close at hand. It helps if its >mounted on a south facing window. Mine is >colored yellow to attract the first scouts. >Re filling is simple, best done at night. I like this idea and will certainly give it a try. One point I should have mentioned in that previous posting. Don't waste your time trying to feed pollen when the natural stuff comes on stream,( in our case it's the pussy willow,) as they just ignore the artificial, even in a feeder close to the hive. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:08:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Liz Day Subject: Re: The Aging Beekeeper Let us not ALSO forget that many people do not have time to really get into their favorite hobby until they retire. There may be may 'dormant' beekeepers out there....? Liz Day LDAY@indy.net Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:15:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike High Subject: Those damned wax moths I wonder if anyone has any ideas on prevention/eradication of wax moths? Last fall they destroy all 8 of my hives & this fall they did in a friends. I believe mine escaped this year. Any thoughts would be appreciated. MLHigh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:44:10 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Jensen Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths >I wonder if anyone has any ideas on prevention/eradication of >wax moths? Last fall they destroy all 8 of my hives & this fall >they did in a friends. I believe mine escaped this year. Any >thoughts would be appreciated. > MLHigh I don't know how to break it to you, Mike but the wax moths did not do in your bees. It almost certainly was varroa. The wax moths only took over when all the bees were gone. You need to tell us what your varroa treatment consisted of for those 8 hives. Good luck. Mark Jensen mjensen@crl.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 01:22:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike High Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths No varroa mites,I had them checked by the state aparist. It was wax moths. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:35:43 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Josef A. Stark" E-MAIL message Multipel Recepient Bee-Net Merry Christmas and A New year of 1996 Here in Uppsala, Sweden we have a quite strong winter this year with temperature up to minus 18=B0C and snow is ca 20-40 cm deep. Cross country skiing is possible any time for a frequent sportsman - the only thing is that sun sets already at 2.50 in the afternoon (sun is only up for 5 hours now in December) but next week, it turns into lighter times again, to reach its maximum in May / June, when sun is shining almost all night long. You can't really tell the differnce of night and day- as far as light is concernd. Christmas will be celebrated in old traditional style, with traditional food and Santa Claus coming with smaller presents. We decided on 'low'budget' gifts this year - but someone will surely break that agreemen t - like always. The party itself will be held at our home and we will have ca 9 guests - mostly relatives. Well, this is all for now - once again - have a calm and peaceful Christmas. 951221, Josef A. Stark in Uppsala, Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:43:07 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gunnar Soderlund Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths Hi >I wonder if anyone has any ideas on prevention/eradication of >wax moths? If you meen this small insects, near to butterflyes, i have one idea. When you place your hives inside for the winter, place all vax and vaxframes in a cheat of newspaper, it use to work in with my vax. I hope that this is an answere to your question, have I understand it right?! Bye and mary Christmas :-) Gymper astro@tripnet.se (Gunnar Soderlund) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:38:16 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kenny W Bailey Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths In-Reply-To: <01HZ1SGBRMHK9FN70N@delphi.com> from "Mike High" at Dec 21, 95 00:15:06 am Yes. Maintain a healthy hive. Wax moths cannot infest a strong hive in which its occupants are capable of removing the wax moths from the hive. If you are observing an infestation of wax moths in your hives, then you probably have a deeper problem than the wax moths. I don't know where you are located, but if you were in my area in North Carolina, I'd say that you probably have a varroa or tracheal mite infestation that has reduced the hive's population and allowed the wax moths to have free run of the comb. > >I wonder if anyone has any ideas on prevention/eradication of >wax moths? Last fall they destroy all 8 of my hives & this fall >they did in a friends. I believe mine escaped this year. Any >thoughts would be appreciated. > MLHigh > -- Kenny W Bailey E-Mail : kbailey@cumberla Internet: kbailey@cumberla.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : (910) 484-7156 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:39:19 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths Mike, >I wonder if anyone has any ideas on prevention Prevention consists of maintaining a STRONG and healthy colony. Wax moths are not known to invade and take over a strong colony (the bees eject them from the hive). >eradication of wax moths? I'm not familiar with any "in hive" treatment while live bees are in the hive. As mentioned above, if a colony is healthy and strong, wax moths are not successful invading a colony. Wax moths can only capture and take over a colony that is in some kind of weakened or stressed condition. Since all eight of your hives (last year) were taken over by wax moths and you know it wasn't varroa; we would need more details and/or obser- vations as to the condition of your hives to try and detect what might have caused this situtation. Again, the hives were stressed or otherwise in some kind of weakened state and there are many reasons why this might have occurred. Storeage of hive bodies and frames is another matter. Keeping wax moths out of stored equipment is an easily accomplished task. Regards, BusyKnight Dallas, TX ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:07:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Hive Moisture Bis 20dec95 0951 HIVE MOISTURE BIS Verstehen sie mir for repeating this message originally sent on 15dec. Believe it went out corrupted. Here in Howard County, 10 miles W of Balto, Maryland, we combat hive moisture by placing a twig on the front rim of the inner cover, that is, between the outer cover and inner cover, about 1 oct (first frost is around 15 oct), and remove it around 1 apr, when all danger of severe frost is passed. The hive itself has two deep broodchambers, hopefully w/ six frames of feed in each (or about 60#), going into the winter. The bottom board is shallow side up altho the some larger beekeepers in HC run the deep side up and resort to mouse excluders during the fall--I have never done that in 35 consecutive years of apiculture: extra expense and extra work. Suum cuique? Jack the B-man MX&HNY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:25:46 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert McDowell Subject: Those damned wax moths -Reply Prevention?? Healthy colonies. I doubt wax moths killed all 8 of your colony--they were probably dead or nearly so and wax moths just took over. Wax moths are in most colonies during most of the growing season--they lay eggs, the eggs hatch, and the bees haul the larvae out of the hive. When your colonies die out, abscond, or otherwise take a powder, there is no naturalo control of wax moths so they do their dirty work. The same goes if take remove combs from a colony--was moth eggs and larvae are on them, so with no bees present, the eggs and larvae go to town. For this reason, "storing" equipment on small or weak colonies isn't a good idea--esp. if the combs are nice, dark old combs that have had lots of brood reared in them. One way to reduce wax moth damage on combs used for honey supers is to use combs that have not been used for brood rearing--these are of very little interest to wax moths. For this stored equipment goes, fumigate, freeze it (if you have access to a walk-in freezer or don't have too much stuff to freeze) for 24 hours, or store equipment in an open, light environment. Wax moths love the dark, hate light. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:07:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: bee escape Twenty years ago I bought a bee escape which had a central hole of about 1 1/4 inch diameter on the top and three radiating pathways on the bottom. I have been unable to find a replacement. Does anyone know a source of such an excellent tool? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:36:28 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: bee escape > Twenty years ago I bought a bee escape which had a central hole of > about 1 1/4 inch diameter on the top and three radiating pathways on > the bottom. I have been unable to find a replacement. Does anyone > know a source of such an excellent tool? The only North American source I know of is F.W. Jones in Bedford Quebec. They call it the Quebec bee escape board. (RH-0915) It is well built and about $6 US last I checked. Phone 514-248-3323 I mention this on the list because it is a little known, but absolutely excellent tool. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:27:18 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US Subject: Wax Moths Move to Alaska. We do not have any problem with wax moths here. Tom Elliott Cook Inlet Beekeepers Association Anchorage, Alaska ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:31:30 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Conclusions A list member recently wrote I think, in trying to summarize, for myself at least that what I have heard is: (1) Late winter syrup feeding is not the best way to ensure survival. Fall feeding in order to provide adequate stores in the is best. True. Dry sugar is the next best if needed. (I must say though several persons stated that the bees "dilute" honey to a 50/50 honey/water mixture anyway before consuming and implied that syrup could be fed any time. Conflicting information! Hmmmm.....maybe this conflict is based on the location of the bees.) Yes, and the other management factors, such as hive ventillation, winter temperatures, position of the cluster, wrapping, etc.. *Combs of honey* added to the hive are still the very *best* if you want the bees to amount to anything in the spring. Candy boards are also a very good solution that will work for almost everyone anywhere. I have never heard of them failing if used right. Dry sugar will often prevent *total* starvation, but is not the best method in many (most?) situations. Some people can make it work. But don't bet the ranch on it until you've tried it on a limited scale and observed what works *for you*. It is an expert technique that can be a stop gap measure, but *in my experience* it does not provide sufficient feed that bees can rear brood in any amount. Weak hives have trouble with it too. If it is fed on the inner cover, the bees have to be strong enough to maintain heat to get it - and be close enough to it too. How much can you get into the hive? Will it get all wet and then harden? How much are you willing to waste? In many areas - at some times of year - bees cannot use dry sugar. There has to be enough excess moisture in the hive for the bees to dissolve it. And it has to be warm enough for the bees to remain in contact with it. Bees will often just throw it out the door if conditions improve. Sugar syrup - as a necessary evil - is in my experience, much better than dry sugar, but remember it is dry and drafty out here in this part of Alberta. Fed in late February or March in shallow hive-top feeders, or preferrably division board feeders near the cluster in an insulated hive - if the weather co-operates, 67% syrup can work quite well, however, feeding causes the bees to consume far more feed than they would if they were just eating stores from the combs. (2) Upper entrances (vents) are needed to allow moisture buildup to escape. I think that from what you have offered, the higher the vent in the hive the better. (i.e. vents in inner cover rather than auger holes in the upper bodies) Well, we have reached the conclusion that in our area, auger holes are as good as higher entrances and better in some ways. But it is dry and windy here in winter. The unfortunate part of this is that, as questions are answered, new ones take their place. Can one have to much ventilation? This is one of the reasons we favour auger holes at present. We are in a dry, windy area. What if the inner cover was modified to include screened openings and the telescoping cover lifted 1/4" thereby allowing plenty of venting space at the very top of the hive? Many people have played with this. Basically, if the bees can see light, they will worry themselves at a screen trying to reach it. Otherwise, no problem. Some space above the top bars is important to allow bees to move back and forth. However too much will cause the bees to cluster there instead of on the frames in the spring, resulting in burr comb and possible less brood. You *can* overdo ventillation. Basically, a 3/4 square inch hole is enough. Simplest is best? Remember bees do need *some* humidity to raise brood without stress. The centre of the brood area is deliberately kept quite humid. However there have been designs that may offer some small benefits. There was a design from Ontario where a hole in an inner cover was connected by a tunnel to the front of the hive, so the vent was above the cluster, and less light came in. I tried it and it was good, but made no noticeable difference in eventual results. Would this increase or decrease survivability? Would it increase or decrease evaporation of water and conversion into honey during honey flows? I think that this was at least partially covered in recent discussions and during the summer. It is a perennial topic that merits continued examination. New hive ventillation designs are always being developed. Many claim amazing results in wintering, honey production, etc. I hate to admit it, but a lot of my hive ventillation is accidental (Knot holes, gunshot holes, lids blown off, wood peckers at the handholes, hives knocked off their bases by cows, hives lying on their sides, etc.) It doesn't seem to improve my results ;) But then maybe I'm not doing it right. David Eyre has intimated some time back that he has a new hive ventillation design; perhaps if we ask, he will explain it? I would imagine that the details would interest the list. BTW if you would like to take another look at previous discussions here, they are available at one of my websites. Some are stored there and some are at sunsite - courtesy Adam F, but the links are reached through the URL in my sig below. They are also available any time at LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU, by email. Simply send an email saying get bee-l log9512 '95' means 1995. '12' is Decemeber. July 1995 would be get bee-l log9507 You can get up to 5 logs at a time. They will come as separate email messages some time later. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The advice on this list comes from far and wide, from the practical beekeeper and the academic, from the oldtimer and the relative newcomer. None has the monopoly on truth. Those who manage to stay in this business are those who have management techniques that - while they may not be the *best* in any particular year - do not result in *total* losses in any one year. I hope that my comments here are constructive. My main message is: Try it. Observe carefully. Try it again a different time. Observe. And visit your neighbour - see what he has been doing for the last 20 years in *your area*. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:03:50 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Syrup vrs Candy? Gentlepeople: Well, it comes time again for me to ask another question. The last time I ventured to ask a question I received lots of good information. Maybe this time as well. I just wish that I had information and experience that I could offer back to all of you. For those of you following the WWW there have been some discussion on syrup feeding in winter as well. Several individuals on the Web indicate that they provide "candy boards" to their bees in the winter. I have read of candy boards and even attempted once to make "fondant" candy according to recipes I found in my wife's candy cookbook. All I succeeded in doing was using up 10lbs of sugar and making a thorough mess of the kitchen. The only reason I wasn't banned from the cooking area was that I spent a couple hours cleaning sugary crystals off the linoleum and waxing up the floor nice and shiny again. Give me your thoughts (and recipes and tips) on using candy for emergency food. (My hives are currently sitting with plenty of honey and look in good shape, but the winter is early and, after the last three years of lost hives, I want to be ready in case I need to help out.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:55:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Wax Seasons greetings to all. Today I have recieved a request from the Web from a Laurie Stone. Lrps@aol.com She maintains a herb garden a St Mark's Episcopal Church, Main and Church St. LeRoy NY 716-768-6302. She would like to buy 10 to 20lbs of Bees wax for candle making. Is there anyone close to her who might care to pick this one up. Perhaps do a little charity work at the same time. Regards..... **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths >I wonder if anyone has any ideas on prevention/eradication of >wax moths? Last fall they destroy all 8 of my hives & this fall >they did in a friends. I believe mine escaped this year. Any >thoughts would be appreciated. We have had numerous comments about maintaining strong hives etc. The most obvious nobody has commented on. Keep the wax moth out of the hive to prevent them laying eggs. My observations. The wax moths seem to be drawn to the top of the hives. On opening hives in late summer we find the moths in cracks and crevices around the roof. We always kill them off. At the same time we have no top entrances to our hives during late summer. Plus we always maintain big hives, declining hives are a waste of time and equipment!! I believe that the moths hang around waiting for a brief cold spell, when the bees cluster away from that top entrance. Then the moths move in and lay eggs. Don't forget moths are night operators and work during hours when the bees are clustered. We don't have a wax moth problem. I would suggest, no top entrance late summer early fall. Sceened inner covers, and store spare frames and boxes in a cold area. We are lucky our storage is unheated and today it's -20C. That fixes the little **#$%*+'s. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 23:21:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Scott Holisky Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths Yep, even here in St.Paul, MN we hear of this "wax moth" thing. I soon will be doing the Jan. inspections, scraping the snow off the tops, removing the tar paper, and low and behold - on top of the moisture release board ( 3/4" builtright) I'm sure to find a few "wax winter moths"...if only they could fly...Yes it's true wax moths do winter over, but like the ants, they too will soon learn what a strong hive can do...ikes! Seasons Greatings - Scott ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:56:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike High Subject: Those damned wax moths-update Well, I have gotten SOME advice.Still nothing real positive.Background: The Hives have no mite problems, the were checked & certified free. Also, they have no top entrances.As far as strong colonies, all were fairly strong, not record breakers, but not puny either.They see to get hit when it cools down & they cluster, then those god-damn moths start & go through like shit though a cane break. For some reason the bees never get around to whacking them before they get whacked.Still waiting for ideas. MLHigh ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:02:35 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths-update > Well, I have gotten SOME advice.Still nothing real > positive.Background: The Hives have no mite problems, the were > checked & certified free. Also, they have no top entrances.As > far as strong colonies, all were fairly strong, not record > breakers, but not puny either.They seem to get hit when it cools > down & they cluster, then those god-damn moths start & go > through like shit though a cane break. For some reason the bees > never get around to whacking them before they get whacked.Still > waiting for ideas. > Hmmm. We talk about wax moths like there was only one kind. Well, there are several, and some are a whole lot harder to deal with than others. I picked some up down East one time years ago and it took years to lose them. They were one of the 'greater' types and they were tough. They would hide in cracks and just keep coming back. If you can't arrange to get all the equipment frozen solid, then your best bet is to make sure that all the equipment is very well aired out at all times, and that there is no more equipment on the bees than they can occupy. Fumigation is now a controversial matter. Wax moths cannot survive exposure to air circulation. They thrive in enclosed space. Somehow, though, I wonder if you are experiencing something new. Perhaps you should get specimens and have them identified at your nearest university. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:29:45 GMT+0100 Reply-To: anthony@iet.hist.no Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MORGAN, ANTHONY" Subject: Re: Apologies for bad spelling Hei, I must apologise to all BEE-L'ers and the gentleman himself ! The developer of the Norwegian ventilated hive base is BARAAS not . The double A is (in ordinary text but not in place names and surnames) now replaced with a single A with a little ring over. This is pronounced as a sort of sound, like the in cork but with the de-emphasised. Happy Christmas to all! Cheers, Tony --------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N. Morgan (Tony) Fax: +47 73 89 62 86 "Stavshagen" E-mail: anthony@iet.hist.no Midtsandan Sor-Trondelag College 7563 MALVIK Elec. Eng. Department Norway 7005 TRONDHEIM, Norway ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:24:02 CST6CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BLANE WHITE Organization: Minnesota Dept of Agriculture Subject: greetings Hi Scott, How are the bees doing? Got your address from the bee-l. I have attached a little file. It is uuencoded so you will have to uudecode it than double click on it from windows file manager. Have a merry Christmas blane ****************************************** Blane White State Apiary Inspector Minnesota Department of Agriculture 90 W Plato Blvd St Paul, MN 55107 http://www.mda.state.mn.us ph 612-296-0591 fax 612-296-7386 bwhite@mda-is.mda.state.mn.us ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:24:01 CST6CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BLANE WHITE Organization: Minnesota Dept of Agriculture Subject: greetings * This message contains the file 'christma.exe', which has been * uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use * the browser's eXtract function to lift the original contents * out to a file, otherwise you will have to extract the message * and uudecode it manually. begin 660 christma.exe M35J:`$L````@`*<`__^U"8`````0`,4('@````$````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M``````````````````````!B;$-(4DE35$U!``#B"#``(`$````````P```` M`````"`!```````````````"@!"X(`%0N#8`4)JH+_X!N#`!4+@Z`%":J"_^ M`;A``5"X/@!0FJ@O_@&X4`%0N$(`4)JH+_X!N$`!4+A&`%":J"_^`;A@`5"X M2@!0FJ@O_@&X<`%0N$X`4)JH+_X!N'`!4+A2`%":J"_^`;AP`5"X5@!0FJ@O M_@&X@`%0N%H`4)JH+_X!N%`!4+A>`%":J"_^`;B0`5"X8@!0FJ@O_@&X4`%0 MN&8`4)JH+_X!N$`!4+AJ`%":J"_^`;B@`5"X;@!0FJ@O_@&X(`%0N'(`4)JH M+_X!N"`!4+AV`%":J"_^`;BP`5"X>@!0FJ@O_@&XD`%0N'X`4)JH+_X!N,`! 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M;@YW#HT.I@ZO#L@.T0[J#O,.#`\5#S8/3`]5#UX/9P]P#WD/@@^+#Y0/G0^F M#[\/V`_A#_H/`Q`<$"40/A!'$&@0?A"'$)`0F1"B$*L0M!"]$,80SQ#8$.$0 MZA#S$/P0!1$.$2<10!%)$6(1:Q&$$8T1KA'$$@1\1'Z$0,2#!(5 M$AX2)Q(P$DD27Q)H$GX2AQ*=$J82QQ+:$N,2[!+U$OX2!Q,0$QD3(A,K$S03 M/1-&$T\36!-A$VH3@Q.<$Z43OA/'$^`3Z1,"%`L4)!0M%$843Q1H%'$4BA23 M%*P4M13.%-<4\!3Y%!(5&Q4\%5457A5G%7`5>16"%8L5E!6=%:85KQ6X%<$5 MRA73%=P5Y17^%1<6(!8Y%D(66Q9D%GT6AA:?%J@6P1;*%N,6[!8%%PX7+Q=( M%U$76A=C%VP7=1=^%X<7D!>9%Z(7JQ>T%[T7QA?/%]@7\1<*&!,8+!@U&$X8 M5QAP&'D8DAB;&+08O1C6&-\8^!@!&2(9.QE$&4T95AE?&6@9<1EZ&8,9C!F5 M&:L9Q!G-&>89[QD(&A$:,AI+&E0:71IF&F\:>!J!&HH:DQJ<&J4:KAJW&L`: MR1K2&ML:]!H-&Q8;+QLX&U$;6AMS&WP;E1N>&[\;V!OA&^H;\QO\&P4<#AP7 M'"`<*1PR'#L<1!Q-'%8<7QQH'(`!V!'8H=DQV<':4=KAVW'<`=R1W2'>@=`1X*'B,>+!Y%'DX>;QZ( M'I$>FAZC'JP>M1Z^'L<>T![9'N(>ZQ[T'@P?)1\N'T Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Thomas Quinn Subject: Re: greetings Hey, That is pretty cool. How do I change the name from JOE at the bottom to my own? Thanks, Thom At 08:24 AM 12/22/95 CST6CDT, you wrote: > * This message contains the file 'christma.exe', which has been > * uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use > * the browser's eXtract function to lift the original contents > * out to a file, otherwise you will have to extract the message > * and uudecode it manually. > > >Attachment Converted: C:\WW4W25\DOWNLOAD\christma.exe > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:48:06 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Re: greetings I don't know how to do this. Could someone educate me? Mark Egloff Dayton, Ohio ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: greetings Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at CSC_uuxch Date: 12/22/95 9:33 AM * This message contains the file 'christma.exe', which has been * uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use * the browser's eXtract function to lift the original contents * out to a file, otherwise you will have to extract the message * and uudecode it manually. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:27:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Waxmoth Ideas 4 Beeginners 22dec95 0852 "Waxmoth Ideas 4 Beeginners" A. BROODCHAMBERS 1. Wax moths never appear in s t r o n g hives; that is, they take over only weak and failing colonies. 2. For such colonies, DON'T WAIT. Combine them immediately w/ strong ones, using newspaper method. 3. If a hive has died and the wax moths have not yet taken over, disburse the hive bodies (mine are alldoublebrooded) among strong colonies (U now have triple-brooded ones).. 4. If the hive is discovered too late (advanced stages of waxmoth), I remove frames, set them out in the open for other bees to capture any available honey. If available comb is present, I run them, frame in all, in my solar wax melter to rescue the wax (comes out 99.9% clean the first time around). If the comb is not salvageable, I cut it out w/ kitchen knife, burn it, and sterilize the frames w/ a propane torch B4 using again. (I don't think you'll find this in any books; however, maybe I've reinvented the wheel?) B. SUPERS (Temperature range, central Maryland: 0-95oF.) 1. MT supers w/ drawn comb are highly susceptible to wax-moth infestation. 2. For year-round storage until ready for use, I stack them 10 high (I use shallow supers only in my operation, NOT mediums or deeps), each two divided by a sheet ofnewspaper. Each two receive one tablespoon of paradichlorobenzene (PDB crystals and NOT napthalene mothballs) sprinkled over the top one before covered w/ newspaper. (It goes w/o saying that there should be no cracks present in the stack. Use duct tape if necessary.) 3. Wax moth eggs, always present, never hatch out in them. Before using them, I air them out in the sun for several hours or until the smell has disappeared. 4. In the winter time, extra shallows w/ drawncomb are stored on top of my living hives, two per hive, just above the inner cover on a doublebrooded colony and just below the outer cover. This is my preference. 5. About April 1, I like to get all supers back on all hives (up to three per hive--I don't own more than 30 shallow supers w/ drawn comb). I check them for filling about once weekly and switch them about as necessary, so that by extracting time, mid-June, some hives will have no supers while others three. (Only wildflower honey, usually tulip poplar, sometimes black locust or mixed--these trees bloom here from 1may to 1 jun. And that's the end of the honeyflow for the year. Jack the B-Man MX&HNY (mixhoney?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:28:45 CST6CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BLANE WHITE Organization: Minnesota Dept of Agriculture Subject: apology Hi All, Sorry for that one. What was intended as a private message got sent to the entire list. I failed to notice that my mail program had put the bee-l address into Scott's entry in the address book. Have a merry Christmas and a happy new year blane ****************************************** Blane White State Apiary Inspector Minnesota Department of Agriculture 90 W Plato Blvd St Paul, MN 55107 http://www.mda.state.mn.us ph 612-296-0591 fax 612-296-7386 bwhite@mda-is.mda.state.mn.us ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:14:48 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Re[2]: Those damned wax moths What is a "Moisture Release Board"?? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at CSC_uuxch Date: 12/22/95 12:28 AM Yep, even here in St.Paul, MN we hear of this "wax moth" thing. I soon will be doing the Jan. inspections, scraping the snow off the tops, removing the tar paper, and low and behold - on top of the moisture release board ( 3/4" builtright) I'm sure to find a few "wax winter moths"...if only they could fly...Yes it's true wax moths do winter over, but like the ants, they too will soon learn what a strong hive can do...ikes! Seasons Greatings - Scott ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:48:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Syrup vrs Candy? Mark Egloff wrote: > I have read of candy boards and even attempted once to make "fondant" > candy according to recipes I found in my wife's candy cookbook. All I > succeeded in doing was using up 10lbs of sugar and making a thorough > mess of the kitchen. The only reason I wasn't banned from the cooking > area was that I spent a couple hours cleaning sugary crystals off the > linoleum and waxing up the floor nice and shiny again. > > Give me your thoughts (and recipes and tips) on using candy for > emergency food. As you were kind enough to clean up after yourself, other husbands take note, your wife should let you back in the kitchen and this is what you will need: Icing Sugar, Glycerine, and a drop of water . We tried making candy from a supplied recipe and found that it went rock hard. I frequently make fondant icing and to keep it soft you need the glycerine, unfortunately for fondant icing you also need corn syrup, after experiments, we found that just icing sugar and glycerine with a tiny drop of water make a perfect bee candy. Put it in the fridge overnight and then knead more icing sugar into it the next morning, it must be kept to a firm but not solid paste, otherwise the bees can't work with it. Icing sugar is also referred to as confectioners sugar. Measurements are dependant on the number of bees that you are feeding so the only answer is experimentation. Happy Holidays, Jean Eyre **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:49:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Those damned wax moths-update Mike High wrote Fri 22nd Dec >Well, I have gotten SOME advice.Still nothing real >positive.Background: The Hives have no mite problems, the were >checked & certified free. Also, they have no top entrances.As >far as strong colonies, all were fairly strong, not record >breakers, but not puny either.They see to get hit when it cools >down & they cluster, then those god-damn moths start & go >through like shit though a cane break. For some reason the bees >never get around to whacking them before they get whacked.Still >waiting for ideas. I have already had my say, but can't resist one more point. There are bees which are not hygenic, they live in real messy conditions. Signs are, a real messy bottom board, debris and cappings on the bottom. (This is one point on our breeding check list.) Is it possible they are not cleaning up the stuff left by the wax moths? Must admit this one has me baffled!! When you say no top entrance, I assume your boxes are hole free!! There is a ray of hope in the distance. The University of Guelph is doing some work on a wax moth trap. Working on pheromones!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:56:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Plumley Subject: Re: Waxmoth Ideas 4 Beeginners I've seen many references to the 'Newspaper Method' of combining hives but have never read about the details. Can someone elaborate on this method - or refer to a published account? Thanks, PWP * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Peter W. Plumley Manager -- Faculty Academic Computing Support Services Faculty Computing and Media Services Syracuse University, 315-443-5730, pplumley@syr.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:58:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jon Dain Subject: SIGN OFF BEE-L SIGN OFF BEE-L Conservation & Development Forum 304 Grinter Hall P.O. Box 115531 University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-5531 USA telephone: 904-392-6548 telefax: 904-392-0085 e-mail: cdf@tcd.ufl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 00:06:16 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Maynard R. Thompson" Subject: Re: Waxmoth Ideas 4 Beeginners"Newspaper Method" In-Reply-To: The newspaper method is a simle convenient way to combine colonies. In the case of the wax moth being the cause for combining two colonies I would be cautious about bringing the attending problems of the weak colony TO the strong colony. It seems accepted practice to do this but I again would measure the value of the bees to be "rescued">IMHO I've seen many references to the 'Newspaper Method' of combining hives but > have never read about the details. Can someone elaborate on this method - > or refer to a published account? > > Thanks, PWP> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:16:23 -0800 Reply-To: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Conrad A. Berube" Subject: pupa faux pas? Comments: To: entomo-l@UOGUELPH.ca To any diptera or hymenoptera systematists out there: I was playing around with my new GUI account (whoa-- and I thought the internet was fun _before_ I could see the graphics 8-) looking for an image of a calliphorid (found one elsewhere) and came across the following URL: http://www.life.uiuc.edu/Entomology/insecthtmls/gifs/diptera.gif which is labelled as showing various diptera. For those of you with browsers who'd care to take a look, am I mistaken or is that not a honeybee pupa shown on the left immediately below the close-up frontal view of a (muscid?) fly face? Looks an awful lot like the drawings I've done myself of bee pupae except that the cocoon is awfully prominent-- maybe it's supposed to be a cut-away view of a dipteran puparium but that sure looks a lot like the subject has a propodeum-- which would rule it out as a dipteran. Maybe "Lar of the Flies" or someone would like to take a look... BTW if it were a honeybee the natural orientation of the pupa is with the ventral side up (back resting against the "floor" of its cell). Merry Xmas from Manti Claws, '\ /` ()() \/\ Conrad Berube ____ /`\ \\ ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT / ; ; /` `\/'\\ _____________ 1326 Franklin Terrace ` /` `' \`-===========/~~\ Victoria, B.C. V8S 1C7 \ \ -^\ /\____/^^^~> (604)480-0223; fax: (604)656-8922 |/ '\ '\~~~~~~~~ email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '\ '\ \__\__ `` `` ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 07:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sharon & Bill Kinghorn Subject: Re: Waxmoth Ideas 4 Beeginners"Newspaper Method" > The newspaper method is a simle >convenient way to combine colonies. In the case of the wax moth being the >cause for combining two colonies I would be cautious about bringing the >attending problems of the weak colony TO the strong colony. It seems >accepted practice to do this but I again would measure the value of the >bees to be "rescued">IMHOmites,varroa other diseases..... NOW to the newspaper method. >NEWSPAPER METHOD >1. Remove/kill the queen from the weak hive before combining to your >strong colony. (presuming the strong colony is with a healthy queen) > >2. Remove the cover from your strong colony, smoking the bees down, place >a sheet of newsprint on the top of the strong hive. (tape it down on the >sides with some cheap tape if your working alone.) You now have the >strong colony contained. > >3. Just before stacking the queenless hive bodies on the top of the >newsprint, poke or cut a few small slits in the newsprint (to provide the >bees a place to begin cutting the newsprint on their own.) small cuts. > >4. Replace inner cover/top cover.. go home..say prayer.. > > I believe that is it in a nutshell. The bees will chew the paper >into little bits and remove them from the hive. Apparently in the >housekeeping confusion they accept the scent of the foreign hive that was >grafted on as OK. > >A good reference for some tips aside from the BEE-L are The Hive >and the Honey Bee. ABC's and XYZ's of Bee Culture, and a small >book How to Keep Bees and Sell Honey. >I wanted to provide these book titles >for the new beekeeper as >I personally have found >them usefull..... >Merry Christmas, >God Jul. .. Maynard.... > >mthompso@MAIL.coin.missouri.edu > >On Fri, 22 Dec 1995, Peter Plumley wrote: > >> I've seen many references to the 'Newspaper Method' of combining hives but >> have never read about the details. Can someone elaborate on this method - >> or refer to a published account? >> >> Thanks, PWP> > >One other helpful tip when combining the two hives is to spray the newspaper with sugar water 2 to 1 mix as you perforate the holes. Seems to mask the phermone scents of the hives and assit the bees in breaking the barrier. Bill Kinghorn Sharabee Apairies Phone 705-689-1310 RR #1, Severn Bridge, Fax 705-689-9285 Ontario, Canada. P0E 1N0 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 07:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "James D. Satterfield" Subject: bee book information request My Brother gave me a most wonderful book for Christmas. It's a 1936 vintage children's book titled "The Busy Little Honeybee", published by Rand McNally. Good information, good photographs. Jane Gleason did the illustrations. The author is Josephine Morse True. I'm betting that Josephine Morse is related to Roger Morse. Anyone have any information? I hope that you have all had a wonder holiday season if your culture celebrates events at this time of the year. Good health and honeyflows to all of you in 1996. Cordially yours, Jim Satterfield -------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | P.O. Box 2243 ------------------------------ | Decatur, GA 30031, USA 258 Ridge Pine Drive | | S.E. United States or Canton, GA 30114, USA | | Telephone (404) 378-8917 Telephone (770) 479-4784 | -------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 09:19:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Snow rolling In-Reply-To: <01HZ1SGBRMHK9FN70N@delphi.com> Hello bee people- I went out to check on my hives before an up coming storm and I noticed approx. 2 doz. bees rolling around in the snow. food stores seem fine. I'm not sure what to think. The bees seem in good health, no spotting on the hive, no treacheal mites John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 10:20:20 +22299804 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Varroa: selection pressure thoughts Hello, happy holidays, On observing the almost total loss of healthy colonies in this area, this fall, (SW Virginia, USA) (untreated) I wonder what Varroa does normally with it's host: since a dead hive means the end of that Varroa population as well. Might we see selection for Varroa that over-winter in temperate climates independently from their host, as well as for honey bees that tolerate Varroa infestation? Adam -- _________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 10:09:54 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: Snow rolling >I went out to check on my hives before an up coming storm and I noticed >approx. 2 doz. bees rolling around in the snow. Snow ball fights !!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 12:10:54 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Varroa: selection pressure thoughts > On observing the almost total loss of healthy colonies in this area, this > fall, (SW Virginia, USA) (untreated) I wonder what Varroa does normally > with it's host: since a dead hive means the end of that Varroa population > as well. Our honeybee is not the normal host for varroa, and negotiations for symbiosis have not yet been completed. In its normal host, there is a balance and both seem to prosper. > Might we see selection for Varroa that over-winter in temperate > climates independently from their host, as well as for > honey bees that tolerate Varroa infestation? Although the former is *perhaps* possible, the latter is far more likely. Accompanying this (latter) adjustment by honeybees, we would expect to see an adaptation on the part of the varroa, where strains are fairly quickly selected that are not lethal, and in fact allow adapted strains of honeybee to prosper. Varroa's destruction of the competition in the form of non adapted honeybee strains, could be regarded as a benefit to the surviving bee strains. However, this adaptation to mites might well come at the expense of some characteristics that we consider desirable in bees. One factor that affects and perhaps prevents the adaption process is the interference by mankind by means of mite management techniques. These attempts skew the process and may well slow the process by destroying the less harmful strains of varroa and encouraging the hardiest varroa to survive.while at the same time encouraging continuation of susceptible (weak) strains of honeybees. This is exactly the opposite of the process nature uses to accomplish adjustment between the species. Of course, non of us are likely to sit by and watch our thousands of hives dwindle to the tiny number (which could be zero) that can resist the current varroa, so that we can rebuilt from that tiny remnant of adapted colonies. Unfortunately any attempts by feral bees to adapt, are likely to be swamped by the large numbers of domesticated drones in most areas that will support bees - drones from pampered and protected stock. FWIW, It is entirely possible that - rather than prohibiting imports - we should be importing varroa mites and bees from areas where honeybees have been exposed to varroa for some long time with minimal interference by man in hopes of finding and introducing a less lethal strain of mite and a more resistant type of bee. Unthinkable? Season's Greeting to all. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 10:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Snow rolling >Hello bee people- > >I went out to check on my hives before an up coming storm and I noticed >approx. 2 doz. bees rolling around in the snow. >food stores seem fine. A. Were they making little snow angels? B. Could they possibly be drones that were kicked out? Granted I live in Florida, but my hives are still kicking out the drones. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Fla. U.S.A., 137 hives ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:06:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Re: Snow rolling In-Reply-To: <199512261518.KAA46707@freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu> On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, Kelley Rosenlund wrote: > >I went out to check on my hives before an up coming storm and I noticed > >approx. 2 doz. bees rolling around in the snow. > >food stores seem fine. > > > B. Could they possibly be drones that were kicked out? Granted I live in > Florida, but my hives are still kicking out the drones. > > Nope not drones but thanks for the thought. John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:06:37 -0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bertoldo Schneider Junior Subject: use of beeswax on implants packaging Dear friend I'm a biomedical researcher and my area is passive biotelemetry. I need some information about the use of the beeswax (or other products of bees) on implants packaging, i.e., I need to know its biocompatibility. I heard in a TVprogram that beeswax was used in France, in second great war in animal implants like a low cost solution. Any information or references will be wellcome. Tank you. My e-mail is bertoldo@cpgei.cefetpr.br ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 11:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Beluch Subject: Re: Waxing those wax moths >Well, I have gotten SOME advice. Still nothing real positive..... >Still waiting for ideas. Mike: Here's a non-conventional treatment for wax moths, but natural. An insect specific virus which infects only wax moths (doesn't harm bees, birds, humans, etc) exists. You can find it in the literature under Galleria mellonella Nuclear Polyherdosis Virus (GmNPV). This virus is completely safe, as this and related viruses have been assayed for their effects on humans, etc., for over 30 years. I have been told, through casual conversation, that in some areas where wax moth is prevalent, beekeepers routinely "dust" this virus over their hives to weaken and decimate the population of wax moths, and even prevent infestation in otherwise weakened hives. Unfortunately for your bees, however, it may bee (whoops) too late for the first season's hive after detection and before primary treatment (because, as you've heard from everybody and their brother, wax moths usually settle in after the colony has been weakened by some other ailment.) As for a source, well, here's a caveat: If it's a commercial hive, the product of course has to be registered. A similar product, which will also kill wax moths, is AcNPV, or ACAL, and registered formulations of this virus are available. In any case, much effort would have to be put behind this approach, and for that reason I don't necessarily recommend it. But sometimes when there's nothing left to do.... If you decide to pursue this course of action, I would recommend contacting the USDA's head bee pathologist, Dr. {Shiminugi?} in Bethesda, MD., for more information. Good luck, no matter what happens. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:34:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Varroa: selection pressure thoughts >Hello, happy holidays, > >On observing the almost total loss of healthy colonies in this area, this >fall, (SW Virginia, USA) (untreated) I wonder what Varroa does normally >with it's host: since a dead hive means the end of that Varroa population >as well. Might we see selection for Varroa that over-winter in temperate >climates independently from their host, as well as for >honey bees that tolerate Varroa infestation? There has been a lot of work done in Europe on Varroa and in general a dead hive doesn't mean the death of that strain of Varroa. As the hive declines the remaining bees realise they are not getting ahead and abscond, taking the Varroa with them of course. This explains why some hives, even after being treated in the fall, will fail over winter. There is a massive influx of bees with large quantities of Varroa attached absconding to healthier hives. What we should try and do is, as our German counterparts do, treat all hives in an area at the same time, this successfully prevents the above problems. As to Varroa overwintering independantly of their hosts I suggest this is an impossibility as they are incapable of surviving for long periods on their own. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 16:42:18 +0700 Reply-To: dicka@cuug.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Varroa: selection pressure thoughts > There has been a lot of work done in Europe on Varroa and in general > a dead hive doesn't mean the death of that strain of Varroa. As the hive > declines the remaining bees realise they are not getting ahead and abscond, > taking the Varroa with them of course. That's a particularly interesting aspect and one that makes one wonder about bee behaviour generally. It implies that most bees know where other hives are. For what distance? Do the bees abscond individually, or in mass? If the latter, has this been witnessed and recorded scientifically? All I have heard about it is anecdotal - but convincing. I know we used a purported pollen substitute (fish meal blend) one year and made the mistake of putting it in alternate hives in a row. The bees drifted to the non smelly hives! As far as moving farther afield, and in number, we know of hives absconding and of swarms moving in on other hives. Is this the same or another closely related phenomenon? > healthier hives. What we should try and do is, as our German counterparts > do, treat all hives in an area at the same time, this successfully prevents > the above problems. I believe that this is being done in a number of areas in North America too. One of the things we (The Alberta Beekeepers Association) have been contemplating is the practicality of including it in our provincial Bee Act. I think we concluded that it would be difficult to legislate, but should be something that we attempt to organise on a voluntary basis. Has anyone any experience with this? Is it mandated by law anywhere? > As to Varroa overwintering independantly of their hosts I suggest > this is an impossibility as they are incapable of surviving for long periods > on their own. It does seem very very unlikely, however might there be the (remote) possibility of alternate hosts? What is the temperature sensitivity of varroa? We are asssured that if bees die in equipment, that a fairly short time after, the equipment can be reused without danger. Does anyone have first hand experience here - how long can a varroa mite live on its own? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca Honey. Bees, Art, & Futures ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:51:59 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rob Bidleman Subject: Re: Varroa: selection pressure thoughts Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <9512272342.AA26018@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> Sorry to have this break from the thread but I need to have someone send me the verbatim command to sign off here as I am getting very irritated at my lack of success with the Listserv. I have the original FAQ I was sent a few years back but nothing is working (I'm still here). Thanks, Robbee - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 23:16:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Gentile Subject: Re: Snow rolling >>I went out to check on my hives before an up coming storm and I noticed >>approx. 2 doz. bees rolling around in the snow. They're making snow angels. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:50:31 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Maynard R. Thompson" Subject: Re: Snow rolling In-Reply-To: <951227231629_100511429@emout04.mail.aol.com> > >>I went out to check on my hives before an up coming storm and I noticed > >>approx. 2 doz. bees rolling around in the snow. > Reply: I question the conditions just prior to your discovery. Was it warm enough for the hive to have broken cluster and make cleansing flight? Are your hives situated in such a manner to be much warmer than normal surroundings,hives wrapped in black or painted black? In such case it might be possible for some to rush out and not return to the bottom board after bee'ing individually quick frozen by the true exterior temperatures. Give us more info about these bees that you saw building a snow fort!!! Regards, Maynard... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 10:26:49 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Snow rolling In-Reply-To: from "Maynard R. Thompson" at Dec 28, 95 00:50:31 am Hi: As per the snow angels, a few bees on the ground is not uncommon. Some fly out and quick chill, especially on a sunny day when warmth and light hit the entrance and the cluster warms up a bit. We always find a sprinkling of dead bees in front of wintered hives. Remember, in the summer, bees die every day and some of these end up in front of the hives, so why be surprised when this happens in the winter? Keep in mind that all bees eventually die (as does every other living thing), colonies have lots of bees, so odds are that some will die every day (spring, summer, fall, and winter). A pound of bees is equivalent to about 4500-5000 bees (depends on race, comb cell size, etc.). Mid-summer population sizes of 40-60K (K= 1000, but we all know that, I think) are common, some colonies may exceed 100K of bees. From these colonies, we should get fall populations of 20-30K. Assuming 50% of these bees die by spring, (10-15K of bees) we can expect an average of 67 to 100 bees dead bees per day over a 5 month "winter". Many of these will fall to the bottom of the hive, some are stuck in cells, and some may stagger out the entrance. My point is this, 2 dozen bees in front of a hive is insignificant to the population. Best wishes to all for the coming year. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu The University of Montana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 10:34:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Waxing those wax moths In-Reply-To: <01HZATI62MGY8WW0IQ@ptag2.pt.Cyanamid.COM> from "Mike Beluch" at Dec 27, 95 11:14:00 am > > >Well, I have gotten SOME advice. Still nothing real > positive..... > >Still waiting for ideas. > > Mike: > > Here's a non-conventional treatment for wax moths, but natural. An > insect specific virus which infects only wax moths (doesn't harm bees, > birds, humans, etc) exists. You can find it in the literature under > Galleria mellonella Nuclear Polyherdosis Virus (GmNPV). > > This virus is completely safe, as this and related viruses have been > assayed for their effects on humans, etc. (Not exactly true - we are > doing a lot of microbial pesticide work. This assumption probably > holds, and these pesticides generally are host specific and are not > harmful to non-target organisms - but, tests have been rather hit and > miss in terms of which non-target organisms have been examined and the > appropriateness or relevancy of the assay is suspect in some cases. > So, I'm not about to say any of these are completely safe, just less > hazardous than most of the alternatives. This may change as the > bio-engineers get into the act and try to improve on nature. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu The University of Montana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 09:57:46 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: Snow rolling jerry writes: we can expect an average of 67 to 100 bees dead bees per day over a 5 month "winter" So true! i see a small but increasing pile of dead bees in front of my hive forming. it appears alarming, but it is normal. nature has a way of protecting the strongest. happy holidays! john ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 15:19:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Re: Snow rolling In-Reply-To: <199512281726.KAA11009@selway.umt.edu> Beepeople- I guess why I thought this might be a problem was because I have 6 hives and only this one had bees flying around. and piling up outside. To give more details it was about 20 degrees F out and snowing. about noon. The hives are uninsulated and painted dark green. The hive still has plenty of stores. John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:36:59 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: krengel lawrence e Subject: Re: Snow rolling In-Reply-To: The bees leaving one hive for winter flights and not the others does not seem unusual to me. I have seen it before. I have assumed it to be a diffence in genetics. It seems that everything in the bee world is controlled by genetics... I wouldn't worry... but I would be interested. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL (northern Illinois, USA) P.S. Mark you calendar - March 9, 1996 - Second Midwest Beekeeping Symposium, Crystal Lake, IL (between Chicago and Rockford). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 09:13:20 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Varroa: selection pressure thoughts David Eyre responded to a previous query: > There has been a lot of work done in Europe on Varroa, and in general >a dead hive doesn't mean the death of that strain of Varroa. As the hive >declines the remaining bees realise they are not getting ahead and abscond, >taking the Varroa with them of course. This explains why some hives, even >after being treated in the fall, will fail over winter. There is a massive >influx of bees with large quantities of Varroa attached absconding to >healthier hives. What we should try and do is, as our German counterparts >do, treat all hives in an area at the same time; this successfully prevents >the above problems. And Allen Dick added: >I believe that this is being done in a number of areas in North >America too. One of the things we (The Alberta Beekeepers >Association) have been contemplating is the practicality of >including it in our provincial Bee Act. I think we concluded that >it would be difficult to legislate, but should be something that we >attempt to organise on a voluntary basis. ******** My comment: One can concentrate too intensely on interactions between bees, to the detriment of viewing the colony as the ecological unit in an area. Furthermore, all the colonies within flight range of one another collectively represent a larger unit in the ecological realm. For the past few decades bee researchers have just not paid sufficient heed to these larger ecological units. With varroa, however, we no longer have any choice --- treatment for varroa on a colony by colony unit or even on a bee yard by bee yard basis is simply inadequate to meet the threat. The difficult question: "Can we expect beekeepers within a given political unit to join forces (cooperate 100%) and treat simultaneously on an area-wide basis?" If beekeepers collectively take no such steps, swarms leaving bee yards will continually repopulate cavities left vacant by feral colonies that previously had been wiped out by varroa. A continual reservoir of infested colonies will then be available to re-infest colonies kept in apiaries. That is, as the untreated new feral colonies die out from varroa, their stores will be robbed out once again by apiary colonies and the varroa inhabitants will get a free ride to low incidence colonies. And: Does anyone seriously believe a volunteer program would be effective? Rather, the "Tragedy of the Commons" law would almost certainly come into play. ("If only I don't go along, it won't matter." Maybe not --- provided only ONE beekeeper thought so!) Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * *"Discovery is to see what everyone else has seen, but to * * think what no one else has thought." - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:23:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Pollen-Drying Tip (Hobbyist) 29dec95 1753 SUBJECT: Pollen-Drying Tip To be read only by the hobbyist. How do U dry pollen if U collect less than 50# a year, as I do, April 1 - October 15? The daily take, never more than a pound, is placed on 8x15" cookie sheets, with raised sides, no more than eight ounces to a sheet. The sheets are placed on top of my oil furnace that has a 2'x3' flat surface, about 3-1/2 feet from the floor. If the humidity is not too high, the pollen will be sufficiently dry w/in 48 hours: when pinched, the grains do NOT stick together. This summer for the first time I used a dehumidier in the same room (10x15feet) with the door closed door. The pollen was always dry by the next morn. The equipment was a Coldspot (Sears), 20-pint Automatic Dehumidifier, Model 3220, Net Wt 52#, 12"x17-5/8"x20-5/8," w/ 1/5 H.P. compressor, removing 30 pints water from air every 24 hours at 80oF and 60% relative humidity. [PS After the pollen is dried, I freeze it in one-gallon plastic bags, closed w/ bread ties, at 0 degrees for 24 hours to kill the wax moth egg, always present. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, before the pollen is put out for sale in one-pound glass queenline jars that hold eight ounces for $6.00.] Jack the B-man Happy Holidays! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:52:05 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darren Jefford Subject: Virgin Queens I have posted this message on behalf of Brian Grant, Please send any replies,etc. to me. Thankyou --------------------- Virgin queens in large colonies take a long time to mate - why? It is widely recognised that virgin queens in small colonies, such as nuclei, mate and start laying much sooner than virgins in large colonies, but there seems to be no accepted reason for this effect. Is there even any hard data on the time taken for ma ting to occur in different sized colonies? In most cases the situation of having a virgin in a large colony will only arise if the beekeeper has gone through the stock cutting out queen cells, if nature had taken her course then presumably successive virgins would have left with groups of workers until only a small colony remained. So possibly the pattern evolved to protect the first virgins to emerge since if they were mated they would be less able to defend themselves in fights with younger virgins. This seems to imply that the virgin has some mechanism which tells her that she is part of a large colony and should delay mating, or vice-versa; but that she has no mechanism for detecting other queens in the colony unless she comes into close contact w ith them or hears quarking. This last suggestion is supported by the work on 2 queens survival by Butz & Dietz (J Ap Res 33(2) 87-94, 1994). How can she tell that she is part of a large colony? Could we manipulate it to get her to mate more quickly? I can think of two possible exceptions to the general rule. In the case of supersedure do we have any information on the time needed for the virgin to mate? What is different in this case, could it be that the time of year is relevant? Or do supersedure queens sometimes delay, become drone-layers and get thrown out? The late C B Dennis praised the Dutch "Aalst" system of management; in one stage of this many virgins are released from the cells at the same time into the hive. He believed that in this case the virgins were harried by workers until the fittest was sele cted and implicitly she then mated without untoward delay. Comments welcome, hard data even more welcome. Brian Gant ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Darren Jefford | | Home Page : http://www.lookup.com/Homepages/53698//home.html | | E - Mail : dajd@g8gon.zynet.co.uk Telephone : +44 (0)1395 264872 | |---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Join the ACCU (Association of C and C++ Users). | | For more information visit my Home page or email info@accu.org | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Happy Christmas and have a even better New Year ! | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:47:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Soulcatcher Comments: To: BEE-L@uacsc2.albany.edu. Hello all you bee people out there!!! I am looking for information regarding how I can manufacture beeswax, so that I may sell it to persons in the candle making industry. I would like information on how to process the beeswax into sheets using presses or any other known ways. I hope someone can help. THANKS in advance, KEEP HUMMING Stephane McLaughlin "weo11460@enterprise.ca" or for future usage "visions@enterprise.ca" -- End --