Date sent: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 09:01:56 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9602" To: Allen Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 05:12:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: New Honeybee Virus? VC>From: Vince Coppola >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:20:07 -0500 >Subject: Re: New Honeybee Virus? >Has anyone observed PMS in colonies with low or normal varroa levels? Hi Beekeepers, Don't know if you have read this, but if not you may find it of interest. From my own experience with bees and given as at my last talk with at the American Beekeeping Federation at Las Vegas Jan. 1989 I think. As for "PMS" thats pure USDA government regulatory bee science... And in my opinion a real example of "BS" and not Bee Science. ttul Andy- l l This l l l l is l l from now, 40+ years l l keeping bees.... Successful keeping of bees in the ninety's will require several beekeeper skills or inputs. Two of great importance are: 1. Beekeepers ability to locate his bees in quality pasture. 2. Beekeepers ability to renew his colonies that die for what ever reason. In 1990 about 900,000 beehives will be located in California almond orchards by beekeepers to take advantage of the cash rents being paid by the almond growers. This number of hives represents a doubling of the resident populations of bee hives in California and about one third of the bees in the U.S. And probably is more then half of the hives that can be made migratory. Demonstrating beekeeper ability to relocate bees for anticipated cash rents, comparable to about fifty pounds of honey production. Due to the poor quality and quantity of bee pasture in California, 400,000 of these hives will be relocated out of state for the summer honey flows. Beekeepers continue to demonstrate great skills and expertise in relocating their bees to high quality pastures in spite of special interest groups who have continentally tried to restrict bee movement by various regulations and quarantines, with the motivations of restricting competition for bee pasture, creating jobs and income for the regulating industry, and fulfilling the vision by a few scientists of great loss from perceived pests.{Our greatest threat is being made financially impotent.} The ability of beekeepers to renew or replace colonies that die out, or become so poor as to be a liability, is a serious problem that can be met by applying rule number one: Keep your bees in high quality pasture. Of course this is not always practical. The second best solution is to keep part of your bees in high quality pasture. If all of the above fails, then you must be able to replace your loss. Annual losses under conditions that prevail in California today can approach thirty percent, and in some seasons exceed that. Renewal of these colonies by purchasing Nucs, or making divisions, will depend on the individual beekeepers economic condition and the timing of his first surplus honey flows. [Beekeepers with dependable early pasture, such as citrus, will not be anxious to divide hives, and will purchase nucs if available.] The decline in colony populations of bees experienced by beekeepers in California during the winter of 1987-88 is not a new phenomenon, and has been reported by beekeepers in California and elsewhere [world-wide] for over 100 years. It is my opinion based on thirty five years of observations and lots of library research, that this dramatic loss of bees will continue, and at times we may even have more frequent episodes of epic, unexplained losses of bees. . MY REPORT ON S-A-D AND B-A-D BEES from 35 years field experience Stress Accelerated Decline [SAD] and Bee Immune Deficiency [BAD] are not new spectacles in managing honeybees, or is it even limited to honeybees. They have been described in the popular and scientific literature for over one hundred years, by both beekeepers and biologists. The SAD or BAD condition in bees in the United States has been called by many names in years past. Such as Isle of Wight Disease, Afro-hereditary Disease, fall, winter, or spring Collapse or Decline, and Disappearing Disease. The cause has been diagnosed by biologists as everything from poor nutrition to pest infestations. Such as the TRACHEAE MITE, which is at this time is the populace view. It is my opinion, based on my own experience with bees, that all of the above and every other natural and unnatural condition that afflicts bees, that can be identified as stressful can be made scape goat for SAD or BAD bees. {Including weather; hot, cold, wet or dry; pesticides; and management; good or bad.} Most of this speculation only leads to SAD BEEKEEPERS. No workable solutions are forthcoming from the speculators and much time and money is wasted on popular cures. {redistributing beekeepers wealth} Leaving beekeepers to face the realities of a silent spring, when fifty per cent or more of their hives are quiet of humming bees, after treatment, or no treatments. And I add, much to the disappointment of Almond growers who expected more, and in some cases were guaranteed more then SAD bees can deliver, which at times make them MAD. I have chosen to call this malady of my bees, SAD or BAD, as I believe that best describes the condition of the bees and the way I feal when I have to work with them. And I have not been alone in this work. The SAD or BAD condition of bees is a world wide problem and has been reported in all areas of the world that bees can be kept in large numbers. It is not restricted to any one area, and appears without warning. It can affect beekeepers large or small without regards to experience or politicks. Because it may not reappear in the same region season after season, it is hard to study and much is not known of its cause or circumstances which lead to its appearance... In my own years among the bees I have had SAD or BAD bees many times. {a confession} Some who know me will tell you that it is because of my own {benign neglect} style of management...I prefer to refer to my approach to management, as a more natural, relaxed system of bee behavioral modification. In which I change my life style according to the needs and production of my bees. {Admittedly my life style has matched my bees and lately has been near or slightly above the privileged poor, in some part due to my own SAD bees.} Which may qualify me as an expert on SAD bees. . About 1960 I had my first experience with SAD bees. They were diagnosed as having Nosema. So as soon as I could afford it, I treated and was cured...Several years later I again had SAD bees, since I was treating for Nosema, it could only be caused by a bacteria, like EFB. Because at the time I was using sulfa [legal then] to control AFB, I changed to Terramycin. {The cure again was spontaneous.....} A few years later, now using enlightened treatments for Nosema, AFB, and EFB, my bees again were SAD. It could only be from pesticides. No antidotes were known, but I did get a government Pesticide Indemnification Payment, or PIP... Again several years later more SAD bees, still treating for Nosema, AFB, and EFB, but no more PIP's... SO I stopped going to summer pollination. {The surest way I know of gaining pesticide damage.} And since have tried to limit the time my bees are in the crop growing areas where pesticides are used. [Not a easy job in California, where even in the most remote areas some perceived threat from a pest can bring mass aerial attacks with pesticides, by one government agency or another, or for that matter in the most populated areas, reference resent and continuing attacks on Med Fly and other perceived pests in the major population centers.] Several years later more SAD bees. Still treating for Nosema, AFB, EFB, no government PIP's, {no summer pollination rentals}, and very short honey crops, due to droughts, and BAD, SAD bees. NOW I HAVE MITES?? This time I will be dammed if I am going to put a pesticide into my beehives. Its bad enough to be putting artificial honey, {corn syrups}, pollens, drugs and antibiotics in my bees food chain. {Personally, I have not the resources for one more recommended cure, such as menthol or what ever.} In the spring 1989, more BAD, SAD bees, but not as BAD as 1988. At this time, [Jan 1990], looking forward to the spring, I do not expect to have many BAD SAD hives. Due to the fact that my bees did not show any symptoms last fall. {I have tried to outline, in capsule, what I have seen in the thirty five years of keeping bees. I left much out, including Chalk brood, vitamins, proteins, salts and more to fill a book. Now what did I see, or thought I saw....that makes my bees SAD or BAD?} SAD or BAD bees do show symptoms prior to their collapse. These hives appear to be strong productive hives after a honey flow or extended broodrearing period. In the fall or early winter, in the area I keep my bees. They can change in a very short time leaving boxes full of honey and empty of bees. Two symptoms that have repeatedly shown up in my bees, in the late summer or fall before the decline is increasing numbers of black shinny or old looking bees on the combes. [Hairless bees] The unexplained appearance of numbers of dead, dying, or crawling bees in my bee yards is the second symptom I believe indicates I am experiencing the effects of SAD or BAD. {One can never rule out pesticides, but when you find these symptoms in bees kept ten to twenty miles from the crops pesticides are used on, the likelihood of pesticide damage is reduced.} . For years I have seen my bees crawl out of my hives and die, not only in the fall, but at other times of the year, with no detectable pesticide use, or in some cases even residues found. {I have also seen too many of my hives damaged and killed by pesticides and do not want to minimize the damage they have caused me and others and the real threat they continue to be for all bees.} {Nothing has been more devastating to me personally then the loss I have had from the regulated, [proper and legal], use of pesticides in California. Many times miles from my apiaries. Pesticide damage and loss is far greater by a factor of one thousand or more then all other bee losses put together. Or simply stated: for every dollar lost due to bee disease, pests, and predators; one thousand dollars are lost due to pesticides used on crops miles away from the bees hive. There has never been a pesticide loss to bees that could not have been avoided with out any action by the beekeeper.} The symptoms of SAD or BAD bees I have seen in my own bees has been seen by other beekeepers from all over the world and have been identified as indicators of various viruses that are found in the bee. This includes bees from dwindling colonies from California. Some of the common ones are: Paralysis, [dead bees, black like robbers, dislocated wings]; Sacbrood, [yellow larva, shot gun brood], and many more. Advanced cases of BAD SAD bees can be identified by their lack of ability to use sugar syrup fed in gravity feeders. Pools of sugar syrup will be found on the ground around these SAD hives. A satisfactory but expensive weed killer. And when moving these SAD bees down the freeway on a clear star bright night fellow travelers who pass you will have their wipers on, and at times make gestures to you as they pass, sometime mistaken as the international sign of friendship. One other symptom worth mention is one reported by beekeepers with normal olfactory development. An odor best described as between fermented honey and mouse urine. Both recognizable by experienced beekeepers. Since many of the hives are full of honey and too weak to keep out mice, I have without much scientific research concluded that fermenting honey and mice are responsible for the odors detected. But this could be a real symptom, and I wonder if others have detected this odor? {I one thought, because I kept my bees in the cotton growing areas that the cause of SAD bees was associated with cotton growing or cotton honey. Since so many bees that show SAD and BAD symptoms have never been in the cotton I soon discounted this as a cause.} BEE VIRUSES The major problem with identifying viruses in bees is that few bee scientific types are doing this kind of work and fewer in the U.S. Requests by beekeepers for viruses screens or checks made to public agencies are given very low priority. Most bees can be found to have Nosema and its easy and cheap to look for, so that is what beekeepers are told their bees have when they ask for a viruses check. Few ask anyway. As mites become more prevalent they are superseding Nosema as a stock diagnosis for bees sent to public agencies for study. It really does not matter that much because so little is known of bees viruses and no cures are known. Over the years enough samples of bees from California and the U.S. have been checked in European labs and found to have viruses of one type or another that you can feel confident that they are present in your bees and surely if the symptoms are. {For a hobby I feed colored hybrid carp called, KOI, and find them interesting and somewhat comparable to bees in that they have pests, predators and diseases; like my bees. They also suffer greatly from stress and viral diseases. Its worth quoting from the "TETRA ENCYCLOPEDIA OF KOI" a passage on Viral Diseases.}:QUOTE "Viruses are probably among the most successful organisms ever to have evolved and, apart from other viruses, can infect all other living organisms, including bacteria. Their structure is one of elegant simplicity,.....The life cycle might also be described as simple compared with other organisms.....The infecting virus literally 'injects' its own genetic material into a single cell of the host. Once inside the cell, the viral genetic material takes command of the cell's genetic material and causes it to produce more viruses. Very simply, it may proceed in one or two way. The virus may cause the host cell to mass produce other virus particles that are released when the host cell ruptures, allowing the virus particles to infect other cells and organisms. Alternatively, the virus can incorporate itself into the host cell's genetic material and may have an initial infective stage causing more virus particles to be produced. The virus then enter a non-infectious state during which the particle remains in the host cell's genetic material but is inactive. STRESS OR OTHER DISEASES CAN THEN CAUSE THIS TYPE OF VIRUS TO BECOME INFECTIVE AGAIN. A classic example of this type of viral infection is the herpes virus which causes cold sores in man.{and women} One of the sinister aspects of any virus is that its genetic material is not very stable; it mutates very easily, giving rise to new' viral strains. The perfect example of this are the viruses that cause influenza, with different types appearing apparently each winter to plague us. There is no treatment or cure for any viral disease. Prevention of viral disease using vaccination is the only method currently available....." END QUOTE . The realities of bee viruses are that there are no quick fixes or magic bullets. Viruses are present in most bees and they don't show symptoms or dramatic effects every year. I believe that these viruses do effect bees each year to some degree. The effects or degree of damage that viruses have on bees may be determined by the condition, number of healthy young bees raised prior to the slowing down or stopping of broodrearing and the time before it starts again. The quality of the last bees reared may be just as important as the numbers. Bees reared on low quality diets may look normal and be in great numbers, but not have the ability to properly feed brood; or rear bees that have shortened longevity. Some of the poor pollens that I have been able to associate with my own SAD bees, are grass pollens; such as rice, and many of the water grasses associated with rice. Corn, milo, and fall tarweed pollens also. I am sure that most any area his its own problem pollens. It is well to remember that the greater the mixture of pollen the less problem with SAD or BAD bees, both as a cause and cure. As a rule when large amounts of pollen accumulate in the combs a problem can be associated with that pollen. One example of this can be experienced in the prolonged fall tarweed flows, large amounts of tarweed pollen can be found in the hives and brood rearing stops in spite of good broodrearing conditions. I have also seen this same condition in early October coastal manzanita flows. In this case the lack of pollen was evident. Poor pollen and no pollen give similar symptoms... The stress of nectar collection is easy to understand when no broodrearing is taking place. The bees work themselves to death, so we say. The results may be full boxes of honey and KNOT HEADS. [KNOT HEADS, are small clusters of bees in the advanced stages of BAD, just prior to death or when a hive becomes a DEAD OUT.] GOOD forage conditions do not included over crowded almond orchards. The main reason that so many SAD and BAD bees that are KNOT HEADS at the start of the almond bloom are DEAD OUTS shortly after its over, is that almond pollen by itself is not a good food for bees. {The generation of beekeepers that I learned from did not regularly go to the almonds in the spring even though they lived close to the almond growing regions, because their bees did better elsewhere. Until the almond acreage dramatically increased and beekeepers started taking advantage of the increased need for bees, did beekeepers who live out of the immediate growing area start moving to the almonds, for the CASH rent.} BEES REQUIRE a balanced diet and to get this almost always require more then one kind of pollen. In pollinating almonds, {and other crops}, so many bees are concentrated in a relative small area, that many hives will not have a chance to collect pollen from more then the orchard or orchard floor. And leave no doubt that bee viruses have a better opportunity to spread from hive to hive, as when near a million hives are concentrated in a limited area for almond pollination. Furthermore some research has shown almond pollen, or something in it, may retard brood production and much problems in getting large numbers of queen cells accepted by cell builders is reported during the peak almond bloom in areas where the predominant pollen is from almonds. . The stress of poor diets, the presence of pathological viruses and the time between the stopping of production of healthy bees and the starting of the production of healthy bees determines the effects of BAD and SAD on your bees. If the last bees reared were not healthy and the first bees reared are not healthy, the hive will suffer BADly and SADly may become a DEADOUT. I have watched my own BAD SAD bees for many years, and seen them go from what we refer to as "BALL BUSTERS", {after home run hitters in baseball}, in the fall, to a queen and twenty queen in the spring. Then to DEADOUTS, many times with supers full of honey and sometimes both pollen and honey. In 1988 I witnessed for the first time, when I popped the lid off a hive, earlier identified as SAD, the queen take wing from a cluster of twenty bees and disappear in the flight of bees from other hives in the yard. A DEADOUT was born... As for reported cures, it has been reported that feeding sugar syrup, and sugar syrup with the antibiotic AUREOMYCIN may have some positive effect on some of the viruses. I can not report great success with either in my own experience. {Note: AUREOMYCIN, HCL, or chlortetracycline is not approved in the U.S. for feeding to bees.} But I think that they should be examined for effect on prevalent be viruses. Reducing the effects of bee viruses may be similar to EFB. Once you see the symptoms the damage has been done. For EFB, the TM must be present before the bees start to brood to get the best results, which is no EFB. If feeding sugar syrup or syrup with antibiotic are necessary to prevent damage from viruses, it may be necessary to do it in the late summer or fall to be effective. Once your bees are SAD or BAD, feeding them is the same as putting three or more of them together, the end results is one SAD hive and three or more DEADOUTS. Adding healthy bees or young queens to SAD hives is better spent on healthy hives and used to make up DEADOUTS or NUCS. {Time and good pasture is the only proven way a beekeeper now can overcome the effects of SAD on bees. NOT MUCH HELP IF ALL YOUR HIVES ARE SAD.} It is not my desire to minimize the effects of other pathogens of bees including pests, predators, chemicals, and other natural disasters. All and any stress can result in large numbers of SAD BAD DEADOUTS or DINKS. I do believe that each one of us has a responsibility to keep our bees healthy within the bonds of practicability. [We must always remember that very few creations are not afflicted by pest, predators, and disease.] The results of so many BAD, SAD bees the last few years has been a lot of SAD beekeepers looking for a quick fix to a very complex problem, KEEPING HEALTHY productive bees. I do not think the answer will necessarily be through modern chemistry, and I am certain it will not be by government decree, that: "ALL BEES WILL BE HEALTHY OR DEAD." . Unlike others, I do not believe feral bees or hobby beekeepers will disappear, [leaving open pastures for the enlightened commercial beekeeper], because of any pathogen or pest we know of in today's world. If the environment for what ever reason will not support feral populations of honeybees, {or hobby beekeepers}, then it will be too hostile to support commercial beekeepers no matter how enlightened their management systems. No area in the world that can support honeybees has had them disappear after they have been successively introduced. {}Commercial beekeepers have disappeared{} SUMMERY. My bees at numerous times over thirty five years have went from BALL BUSTERS to BAD or SAD. I don't have good pasture much of the time for my bees. {Yours always has looked better.} You may be able to recognize the symptoms of viruses in your bees before they look SAD and smell BAD, by looking for large numbers of black shinny, hairless bees in your hives. {Before you experience the unexplained appearance of dead bees in front of your hives or dramatic declines in hive populations.} Based on very little scientific research, my own personal observations and much practical experience of others. Sugar syrup fed to bees in the fall, that for what ever reason have been reared or pastured under stress, may reduce the number of apparently healthy hives that become SAD, BAD, DINKS, or DEADOUTS. {Other beekeepers from California to Texas, and elsewhere, report that heavy feeding of sugar syrup, two gallons and more, as soon as their bees are unloaded from being trucked from summer pastures, has greatly reduced their experiences with SAD bees. This should be investigated by our bee biologists.} Beekeepers need a public, non regulatory, non political lab, that bees can be sent to for examination, not only for common pests and diseases, but also the viruses. Samples of bees sent in for testing should be routinely exhamined for more then the popular threats of day. {Both the regulatory and much of the scientific community appears to be suffering from tunnel vision. With no greater porpoise in life then being the first kid on the block to find or identify the first exotic pest of one kind or another.} Its time to accept the fact that bees have and are affected by pests, diseases, and parasites and that any single affliction may be of little harm alone but in combination may be fatal. We must be able to recognize these fatal combinations if we are to have any strategy for thretment. Beekeepers in the U.S. have had much time and experience treating pests, and yet hives treated for pests,{and made free of them}, continue to die. This seems to suggest that something other then the pests being treated is causing the decline in our bees, and maybe we should reserve treatments of pests for extreme cases, and look for, and at other pathogens of bees. . CLOSE TO THE END {When I started keeping bees as an apprentice beekeeper or a beekeepers LOUSE, about 1954, to a generation of beekeeper now past. Their average production per hive was three times today's average. A family could make a good middle class living from five hundred hives including a new car every three years or so and collage education's for the kids. Annual losses of bees in excess of ten per cent was above normal and indicated a poor beekeeper. The normal replacement of bees today in California is thirty percent approaching fifty. Beekeepers with BAD, SAD, bees in the spring of 1989 did have fifty percent and higher losses. Replacing these deadouts, a challenge to the best beekeeper, is not lessened by not knowing if after replacing them they are not going to be SAD by the end of the season}....{ andy } UPDATE (Jan 8, 1989) As I try to polish my long winded talk, beekeepers in California are reporting: Bees that are on the mid-winter coastal honey flows are not showing signs of dwindling. Bees from out of state and in state locations that are wintering in the interior central valley are dwindling in some yards. The weather in the valley has been overcast, foggy and cool, with very little bee activity or flight. On the coast it has been warm and dry. Most colonies appear to be bigger then last winter. Thirty nine apiaries, mostly semi-yards, located from northern to southern California, have been found with Varroa mites at very low levels and are being forced to treat at very inflated costs. Some of the yards being treated have been treated two and three times since last winter. Twenty per cent of the 6,000 colonies being treated have not been out of state in 1989. The percentage of instate hives found with mites is greater then the out of state bees coming into California. California beekeepers have made several runs on the chemical product TAC-TIC (amatraiz) to protect themselves from the threat of high costs of forced treatments by the CDFA. {Opinions expressed in this paper are those of the author, me, who has no regulatory job to protect, chemical products to sell, and should not be confused with any scientific paper created by any Doctor or PHD (POP) who must publish or parish. Thank you for reading this and may you prosper with me to spite all those who perceive that our end is near.} --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Where the wild bee never flew, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:58:57 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: New Honeybee Virus? On Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:20:07 -0500, Vince Coppola wrote: .... > There is debate over the exact > cause of these symptoms but some research indicates that viruses > are being spread by varroa mites. The viruses found in affected brood > and adults are not "new viruses" but have existed externaly on > honeybees. According to the experiences of our beekeepers this may be the right explanation. (No scientific research was done in this sense.) There exists an experience, too, that some colonies are MUCH more resistant against viruses and survive the first wave of losses which follows the varroa infestation. (It seems like the succeptibility to viruses were more dangerous than the mites themselves.) > This past fall many of our bees were in poor condition or dead with > these symptoms. In two yards with about 35 col. each, there were only > 7-9 alive at my last fall visit. And those colonies are than VALUABLE material for selection. Its very simple to raise queens from them and so RAPIDLY lessen those losses caused by the secondary infection of viruses. Then the following step - the protection of colonies against mites themselves brings much better results. But since things are not black and white only, Varroa mites also contribute to higher percentage of real brood diseases among colonies, so one has to be very careful in evaluating the causes (to count with the worse variant). Best regards, Vladimir Ptacek ---------------------------------------------------------------- Fac. Sci., Dpt. Anim. Physiol. E.mail: ptacek@sci.muni.cz Masaryk University phone: .42/5/41129 562 611 37 Brno, Czech Republic fax: .42/5/41211 214 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:22:41 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Helen Du Mont Subject: Market Prices In response to my question of a source for market prices, Keith Cutting suggested I define the market area of interest--retail/wholesale New England/National/International. (Thanks, KC) I saw a listing of national market prices on the Internet some time ago but have been unable to find it again. My query is specifically for retail and wholesale prices for honey and beeswax in New England. This is posted on BEE-L as several others have asked me to forward any information I get. H. du Mont Wilmington, Vermont (hdu1@sover.net) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:52:46 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Market Prices > I saw a listing of national market prices on the Internet some time > ago but have been unable to find it again. Andy posts the prices from time to time on this list and on sci.agriculture.beekeeping. According to dejanews it was Nov - which is pretty old. Try http://www.dejanews.com/ And offer 'honey market' for a search key. You can perhaps find the latest by looking in the logs on the web site below, or on the LISTSERV . Or maybe this will inspire Andy to post again. He runs a bulletin board called Wild Bills BeeBS in California, that has quite a few items. I don't recall the phone number. BTW Prices for wax and honey are in turmoil and I wouldn't believe anything I read. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:10:28 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Stress in moving Bees Hello I was talking with a fellow beekeeper today about stress that is brought about in the moving the bees.I did get some answers before , that stress causes an additive affect to bees that have Varroa.What I would like to know is , do other beekeepers have any more problems now when they move there bees. This year was the first time in 25 + years that I had any problem with the bees that I moved. I should have treated for Varroa while I was still up in the mountains in early september. I do feel stress is playing a role with Varroa to knock a hive down fast. Thank You Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:10:10 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Helen Du Mont Subject: Market Prices Lest anyone be sent on a wild goose chase looking for market prices on the Internet, it turns out my memory was playing tricks--the listing I saw was in a borrowed copy of the American Bee Journal, an excellent source. Thanks to all who responded with help and links. H. du Mont Wilmington, Vermont (hdu1@sover.net) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: New Honeybee Virus? >From Andy Nachbaur >Don't know if you have read this, but if not you may find it of >interest. From my own experience with bees and given as at my last talk >with at the American Beekeeping Federation at Las Vegas Jan. 1989 I >think. As for "PMS" thats pure USDA government regulatory bee >science... And in my opinion a real example of "BS" and not Bee Science. Andy's message was very interesting and also very sad, Jean's first comment was that he needs a hug! What a pity life gets to the point when we treat our bees like human slum landlords treat some of their tennants. We don't like what they do how can we like it for the bees. Obvoiusly bees were never meant to be kept in these close proximities with such limited forage, but dollars and progress will always dictate. I have nothing against profit and doing business, and especially in this economy we all need all the business we can get, I just find it sad that bees are subjected to this type of environment. I still stand by an original view "Don't make the bees do what Mother Nature never intended for them to do". I don't believe, that jamming too many hives in too small a space makes for good beekeeping!! A final point, if the humane societies got hold of some beekeepers they would be put out of business. Just my opinion. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:09:48 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Price of honey Some one asked about the price of honey and other bee products. Maybe this is of interests. I found this information from the USDA internet page. I arrived at the USDA by going to the White House home page and then going to the cabinet reference. THE MONTHLY NATIONAL HONEY REPORT provides information on honey and other news of interest to beekeepers and honey handlers. INFORMATION For more detailed information and Market News Report subscription forms, contact: Market News Branch, Room 2503-South, Fruit and Vegetable Division, Agricultural Marketing Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, P.O. Box 96456, Washington, DC 20090-6456. Telephone: (202) 720-2745. FAX: (202) 720-0547. Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:18:53 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Vicky J. Meretsky" Subject: U.S. supplier of bee dots? Greetings to the group, I am a non-beeperson, in search of the small, numbered, plastic disks known as bee dots or opalithplattchen, and available from Germany. I have the order information for the manufacturer, but would like to know if there are any American suppliers. Many thanks in advance for your help. Vicky Meretsky meretsky@ccit.arizona.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:50:07 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe & Teresa Cooper <74617.121@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Interest in subscribing I would like to subscribe to both of the electronic newsletter publications, Bee-L and B-mail. Thank you, Joe Cooper 6019 White Chapel Road Newark, OH 43056 1-614-323-2680 INTERNET:74617,121@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 16:14:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morty Lipton Subject: bee houses, carniolans & buckfast bees I have built a small bee house that will house all my beekeeping activities. as an avid organic gardener I am especially interested in bee strains that have shown some ability to survive mite infestation. The carniolans and buckfast strains are reputed to have some resistance to tracheal mites. Does anybody have some good leads, either evaluative research or hands-on experience.. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 06:29:11 UT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: William Harper Does any one have email address for: Diana Sammataro OARDC/Extension Honey Bee Lab Ohio State University Thanks. william_harper@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jd Maus Subject: Re: No Subject To: William Harper, Diana Sammataro has an E-Mail address it is: dsammata@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 03:04:30 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: ADVERTISEMENT: Beehive factory for sale It has occured to me that many on the list might like to know that: I have available for for sale a complete set of ten machines that can make 250 dovetailed boxes and 2,500 frames (standard or medium) or more per day . Reply to me personally for details if interested. I guess I really should get a separate _bee ads only_ list going. Lately things are really changing and a lot of new pages are going up and many ISPs are undergoing change, I've had problems finding an ISP that runs majordomo or LISTSERV for a reasonable price and offers certainty of continuous service, so if anyone has any ideas... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 10:27:36 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Stress in moving Bees In-Reply-To: from "Roy Nettlebeck" at Feb 1, 96 02:10:28 pm We just completed a 3 yr study of the cumulative efffects of stressors on bees with varying levels of tracheal and varroa mites. We are working up the articles, but the short story is that the more stress, the more bees with mites and the higher the numbers of mites. Jerry J. Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula jjbmail@selway.umt.edu P.S. We will soon launch a home page describing our work (a prototype page is currently under review by our sponsors. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 10:51:25 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Periodic Posting - Previous discussion archives Since this message received by private e-mail deals with a matter of general interest, and an idea of posting to the list is indicated, I am posting my reply to the list and hope most find it interesting: > Thanks for the info on accessing previous discussions. Is > there any way to search the archives? If you are up to dealing with the LISTSERV, just sent a HELP message to it and go from there. It has advanced searches (by email) that are beyond my willingness to brave the opaque language in the manual. If you use Netscape and the web, just use edit|find and use a key like 'winter' or 'wintering' or 'wraps'. You can use multiple windows and let one log load in the background while you brouse one that is already loaded. > Since there was no reply in > bee-L to my request for information on other wintering methods after > my description of multiple colony packing I was thinking of checking > the archives, but it is a formidable task. Well, I wonder why no one replied. It was an intelligent question, well put, as well. I personally don't have the time to do a good job on it, so was hoping one of the other Northern oldtimers would respond. Maybe some will this time. On a list, things go in waves. For days I get no mail from a list, then it fills my mailbox, only to die down again. Lack of response is often just a matter of luck in timing. I'd post the question again, but it never hurts to look up the old discussions. I think some were in Oct/Nov/Dec of last year and I know there were more. > Perhaps you remember a year and maybe approximate month when there > was extensive discussion about overwintering. I would have sent > this message to bee-L, in case someone else remembered when there > was discussion, but I see that your posting gave your personal > email address for reply to. What is the etiquette here? Would it > be incorrect to reply to the group when someone gives a personal > address on the reply line? Well, you are right in a case such as > this, it is proper and correct to reply personally, but if there > is an impied interest in posting or the originator's identity is > removed, or permission is sought first, it is okay. This, of course depends on the list. BEE-L is a list that accommodates a lot of diverse discussions on all levels with pretty good tolerance by all. Some lists are very fussy. Of course nettiquette requires that messages should offer more than a long quote and a 'ha ha!' or 'me too' response which wastes everyone's time. Who would want to hear laughs or smart comments on every matter from all 500 or so readers? Not me. The rule is imagine buying and licking stamps and stuffing envelopes to send your thoughts to half a thousand people on the list. After that exercise, go ahead *anyhow* if you think that you have *anything* they might like to hear. IMO, anyhow. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:57:30 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Starting Hi friends beekeepers, My name is Jean-Louis Adant. I live near Montreal, Quebec. I am new to this list. I got you address thru beenet in UK. Maybe somebody could advise me about the following project. ACTUAL SITUATION: few years ago I had 4 behives that I kept for 3 years, I learned the basics. Since the prices for blueberry and appletrees pollinisation are quite good these days, I want to become a professional beekeeper. I have a beekeeper friend that owns 300 beehives a mile away from here, willing to help. MY PROJECT: Have 300 to 350 beehives this november. 1-I can find inexpensive wood and I have good carpentry machines and skills so I will manufacture all my beehives myself. I already made special router guides. I have a sheet metal folder for the tin roofs. I might also sell beehives. 2-I am not really interested in making much honey the first year but I want to have the beehives ready for pollinisation next spring. 3-I have a 34 acres piece of land (very good for honey) and some storage. I can find many other good spots. QUESTIONS: What is the best and most economical way to achieve filling all my beehives with bees? If I buy only a few bees and queens, it will be economical but it will take too much time to multiply and if I buy bees and queens for the 300 - 350 beehives, it would be very expensive... What is the best trade off? How many times can I expect to divide all my beehives in the season (may to november)? Is it possible to start with 40 colonies and divide them in two (80, 160, 320) three times? How many half size boxes do I need? Is there computer software for managing beekeeping? Is there anything you would like to know about Quebec beekeeping? Or Quebec in general? Thanks in advance, Jean-Louis Adant, 30km east of Montreal (Qc) E-Mail: jean-louis.adant@relais.com Sorry for my english. Je parle francais. Hablo espanol. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:05:07 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: EAS Where will EAS hold their annual convention this year? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:52:29 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: NZ Beekeeping Profile Through Allen Dick's generousity, I have posted a copy of the NZ Beekeeping - An Industry Profile document to the WWW. Thanks, Allen. I hope other's can possibly benefit from it as much as I learned in discovering how to write some HTML! I can't all guarantee that it works for all browsers, and would appreciate any comments on content or presentation. It contains only one (very small) graphic, a dividing line - maybe that will be a good area to develop into it! You can find it at: www.internode.net/~allend/nz/profile.htm I can't say for sure that it will remain at this address, so if there are any of you who would like to make a link to it from your own pages, feel free, but maybe drop me a note so I can notify you if the location is changed, OK? ------------------------------------ Nick Wallingford, President National Beekeepers Assn of NZ nickw@wave.co.nz ------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:27:07 GMT+200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "A BETHEL - 0356413, QA, X327" Organization: ESKOM Power Station Subject: john iannuzzi Comments: To: mjensen@crl.com I am not a subsciber to this list but seem to have got it by accident. I do subscribe to other list and the system on those is that if you feel someone is not 100% certain as to what to do you post them personnally instead of using up Digest Space. HTH Allan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:56:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Re: New Address Just thought I would inform everyone (if you are interested) of my new address. Since I have moved to Wooster,OH, it has changed slightly. Diana Sammataro Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 Phone: (216) 263 3684 Fax: (216) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:52:44 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Samuel A Marso Subject: History of Varroa Infestation Hello, I am jusy getting started in the beekeeping world and I am concerned about the problems with Varroa mites. Here on the western slope of Colorado things have been pretty quiet until now. I am looking for a brief history of this epidemic dating back to its point of origin. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Sam Marso (smarso@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Bernard Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 3 Feb 1996 to 4 Feb 1996 The Eastern Apicultural Society of North America will hold their annual short course and convention in Harrisonburg, Virginia, USA on the campus of James Madison University from July 29 - Aug 2, 1996. For more information contact Bob Wellemeyer at the Virginia Dept. of Agriculture. (Sorry, I don't have his phone number available.) > >Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:05:07 -0600 >From: BusyKnight >Subject: EAS > >Where will EAS hold their annual convention this year? > David Bernard email address: dbernard@nchgr.nih.gov NIH, NCHGR BLD 49, Room 4B59 Bethesda, MD 20892 (301) 496-3798 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:27:31 -0500 Reply-To: aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin R. Palm" Subject: NCSBA Calendar?? Hello all, I have a question: Has anyone else ordered a 1996 Beekeeping Cal- endar from the North Carolina State Beekeepers Association and, if so, have you received your calendar yet?? I ordered mine almost two months ago and have not received mine yet, nor had any word as to its status. If anyone knows anything about it, could you please email me? Thanks, Kevin Palm -- Kevin R. Palm | Beekeeper (1 hive, 1st year) Grafton, Ohio | Red Dwarf/Babylon 5/NYPD Blue/ER fan (25 miles SW of Cleveland) | Resident of the 100 Aker Wood aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu | Member IECC/IECG/NOST/ICCF ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:39:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: bee houses, carniolans & buckfast bees In-Reply-To: On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Morty Lipton wrote: > I have built a small bee house that will house all my beekeeping > activities. as an avid organic gardener I am especially interested in bee > strains that have shown some ability to survive mite infestation. The > carniolans and buckfast strains are reputed to have some resistance to > tracheal mites. Does anybody have some good leads, either evaluative > research or hands-on experience.. Hi Morty- We have tested a few carniolan and buckfast (U.S. version),and italian colonies for resistance to tracheal mites using the quick test method. The frequency of resistance was pretty much the same in each group, the carniolans a little more frequent. If you want to use resistance as your control it is more important to know how the parents were selected than their ancestry. I recomend queens from the Ontario program. These include carniolans, italians, and buckfast, and also those from our own program. I do not know of any bees that are resistant to varroa, yet. Chemical control or drone brood removal is manditory for now. Natural controls are on the horizon. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Davis" Subject: Irish Beekeepers Fellow Beekeepers, I am interested in making contact with beekeepers in Ireland. Are there any of you out there that are visiting Bee Line? Or does anyone know how to contact Irish Beekeepers. Thank You All in advance for any help anyone may render. Steven A. Davis Mountain Home Apiaries Clackamas Co. USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:30:14 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Role of Evidence Comments: cc: moorec@umbsky.cc.umb.edu, SOCINSCT@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU, GREENBER@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU, cveldink@ctc.ctc.edu, gmichel@condor.depaul.edu, schram@popmail.bio.uva.nl, HPSST-L@QUCDN.QueensU.CA The question of "language" in honey bees appeared last spring on the HPSST network and last fall on BEE-L and SOCINSCT. Within the last two weeks the topic once again surfaced and may have spilled over into the SCIFRAUD network. People in only one or two of those networks thus may not get the whole picture of what has been transpiring. During the most recent exchange, some subscribers asked me to provide input about some specific questions that arose. Before doing so, I would like to clarify what I meant earlier by the statement "evidence doesn't count during controversy" with a personal anecdote --- an experience of mine with Ronald Ribbands (renowned author of The Behaviour and Social Life of Honeybees, 1953). I had visited Ribbands' laboratory (England) in 1964 while I was still an avid bee language advocate (having just published a Scientific American article when I had such an attitude). We got along famously at that time. He repaid the visit two years later. When Ribbands came to Santa Barbara in the summer of 1966, my co-workers and I were conducting our double controlled experiments (as described fully in chapter 9 of our book*). By then, our religious fervor in favor of the language hypothesis had been shaken --- the results of that experimental series clearly violated predictions of the von Frisch dance language hypothesis, as well as his conclusions. Ribbands watched us conduct the experiments and saw that we could not have "rigged" the design in any way that would yield the results we obtained. Although we both agreed that the results were real, the two of us could not agree on interpretation. For three days we remained at loggerheads. Then I thought of an appropriate question and asked, "Do you think it conceivable that bees do NOT have a language?" He replied immediately, "No, that is not possible." When we realized that we lived in different worlds on that matter, philosophically, we thoroughly enjoyed the last few days of his visit. (I deeply regret his death shortly thereafter - I think he would have become an advocate of our position with time.) ******** Hopefully, by tomorrow I can provide the sort of input requested by other subscribers. Adrian * Wenner & Wells, 1990, Anatomy of a Controversy: The Question of a "Language" Among Bees (Columbia University Press) *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * *"Discovery is to see what everyone else has seen, but to * * think what no one else has thought." - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:25:02 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Hoggwash? I was reading the article in ABJ (no I won't precis it) and noticed that the author purportedly shows the difference in comb building behavior between sections divided by clear plastic and those where there is an opaque divider. The first conclusion would be that bees can somehow 'see' there is more room on the other side. Can bees see in the 'dark'? Infrared from body heat???? Hmmmm. Although I may seem to be making light of this, if someone can replicate this, we may have something to rival or surpass cold fusion for popular appeal. It could replace the bee dance as a topic of discussion at cocktail parties.. We learn from strange observations like this and I'll add my own... My people *insist* that the bees do more and better work in the Ross Rounds frames that have the darkest colour. (We have them ranging from white to chocolate in colour). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:25:15 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: beedances to what music? >Maybe >the experimenters just weren't playing the right music! I heard Africanized bees like raegie ...We *bee* jammin' now!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 20:50:32 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barbara McMullan Subject: Re: Irish Beekeepers Hello Steven, I am an Irish Beekeeper, living in the West of Ireland. I have been keeping bees for about twenty years now, but just for the house. I would be happy to correspond with you. I have been getting the Beel L for about a month now. Looking forward to hearing from you. Barbara McMullan At 21:10 05/02/96 -0500, you wrote: >Fellow Beekeepers, >I am interested in making contact with beekeepers in Ireland. Are there any >of you out there that are visiting Bee Line? Or does anyone know how to >contact Irish Beekeepers. Thank You All in advance for any help anyone may >render. >Steven A. Davis >Mountain Home Apiaries >Clackamas Co. USA > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:08:13 +0000 Reply-To: ddbka@beelines.thegap.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les Simms Organization: beelines-du Subject: Bees in Orbit I believe I read somewhere that honeybees were taken on board a spacecraft to see how they managed to build comb in the weightless environment. If anyone has details of the mission or knows the source of relevant material, I would like to know. Many thanks, Les. ___________________________________________________________ * * * * DROMORE & DISTRICT BEEKEEPERS' ASSOCIATION * * * * Estd. 1984 ~ World Cup Winners 1991-92 ~ Blue Ribbon Winners 1994 Affiliated to the Ulster Beekeepers' Association Incorporating "Dromore Buzzette" Chairman: Michael Young Secretary: Bob Shaw Treasurer: Les Simms E-Mail: Snailmail: Dromore & District Beekeepers' Association 9 Governors Ridge Park, Hillsborough, County Down, BT26 6LD, UK. Telephone: +44 (0) 1846-683512 ___________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:31:52 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: BES-Wicwas Press Slide List In-Reply-To: <960206121422_314176704@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "<@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU:owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU>" at Feb 6, 96 12:14:23 pm Hi: Personally, I would prefer not to see large postings on the Server. They just fill up my hard disk. I suggest either setting up a web page, a FAQ, or a BBS. Any of these reside at your site and can be freely accessed by users, but these do not come unsolicited. I view large postings as similar to getting unrequested faxes. Thanks for your consideration. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:09:05 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Yanega Subject: Re: Bees in Orbit >I believe I read somewhere that honeybees were taken on board a >spacecraft to see how they managed to build comb in the weightless >environment. > >If anyone has details of the mission or knows the source of relevant >material, I would like to know. Actually, I recall back in 1983, not long after the shuttle flights started bringing up people's experiments, that someone sent up a "fish tank" containing flies, moths, and honeybees - to see how they performed in zero gravity. Dave Roubik had a photo of this tank in his lab in Panama, and he explained it to me one day, that the flies would crawl around, and then jump and try to fly, sending them *wildly* out of control. The moths were slower, but just as hopeless, flapping and blundering about. However, the honeybees, after an initial period of similar clumsiness, figured out how to keep their wings folded and just *push* against the walls of the tank to get around. That struck me as pretty convincing evidence that the behavioral repertoire of the honeybee is not all hard-wired...somehow I can't imagine anyone postulating that they've been *selected* to exhibit certain motor patterns in zero gravity. Unless those fellers in the UFOs brought them to earth originally. ;-) Doug Yanega Illinois Natural History Survey, 607 E. Peabody Dr. Champaign, IL 61820 USA phone (217) 244-6817, fax (217) 333-4949 affiliate, Univ. of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, Dept. of Entomology "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:48:29 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les Simms Organization: BeeLines Subject: Re: Irish Beekeepers Steven A. Davis wrote: > > Fellow Beekeepers, > I am interested in making contact with beekeepers in Ireland. Are there any > of you out there that are visiting Bee Line? Or does anyone know how to > contact Irish Beekeepers. Thank You All in advance for any help anyone may > render. > Steven A. Davis > Mountain Home Apiaries > Clackamas Co. USA Greetings from Ireland, I am a beekeeper from N.E. Ireland wih about 12 years experience and a member of one of the most progressive associations here. The climate is perhaps our bees' worst enemy but thankfully we have no Varroa. There must be about 5,000 beekeepers in Ireland (no official registration exists), but only a few (perhaps less than 50) have assess to this list. Best Regards, Les Simms. D R O M O R E & D I S T R I C T B E E K E E P E R S Estd. 1984 ~ World Cup Winners 1991-92 ~ Blue Ribbon Winners 1994 Affiliated to the UBKA Incorporating "Dromore Buzzette" Chairman~Michael Young Secretary~Bob Shaw Treasurer~Les Simms E-Mail: Telephone: +44(0)1846-683512 S-Mail: 9 Governors Ridge Park, Hillsborough, Co.Down, BT26 6LD, UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:51:42 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ann Dougherty Subject: Trapping Propolis In-Reply-To: <3117CCAD.7F08@beelines.thegap.com> I'm considering getting a propolis trap this season. I never thought I would intentionally try to get this stuff, but the prices I've seen for it are really amazing. I assume the trap is a repetitively spaced gizmo smaller than a bee space that invites the bees to fill it up. I've never seen one and would like some information. How well do they work and what is the ease of use? Once propolis is collected, what is the best way to make it into powder? If anyone has any other tips they would be greatly appreciated. Ann Dougherty Kirkland, WA. usa! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:56:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Damon Subject: Pollen added to patties I think I remember reading that by adding pollen to extender patties the bees would take them up better. In addition to giving a boost to a quick and strong spring build-up. Would anyone have comments or suggestions on this topic? Tim Damon Ann Arbor, MI timd@arbornet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:23:27 PST Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Varroa Distribution Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:32:48 PST From: buzz@mail.zynet.co.uk (Glyn Davies) Message-Id: Subject: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 21:46:47 PST From: buzz@mail.zynet.co.uk (Glyn Davies) Message-Id: To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Varroa Distribution Here in Devon UK we are just coming through our fourth winter with Varroa. The mite was first identified here in April 1992 at a Club Apiary in Torquay on the South coast. Later investigations showed that the original infestation may have been further in land. By the end of that season the mite had been identified in scattered apiaries (bee yards!) across southern England. The Government twice drew a line making it illegal to transport bees or equipment to the North. These were not observed by the mite and the line is soon to be redrawn for the third time towards the Scotland/England border. Maps published during the last four years show the advance of Varroa. Its spread appears to be in the direction of UK's strongly prevailing summer/autumn winds. That is from the south west. The mite has moved hundreds of miles to the northeast but Cornwall, just to the south west of Devon is relatively free and the few known cases can be traced to beekeeper movement of hives. Wales is also quite free of Varroa so far and would be outside the flight-line of "wind-blown, mite-contaminated bees" . (A map of UK will help those not familiar with our geography! Draw 2 lines a)from Gloucester in the west to Norwich in the east; b)the Devon /Cornwall border. The area between these lines is the heavily contaminated area at 20 Nov 1995; Wind direction from S.west; Origin of infection Dartmoor in the County of Devon. The Department of Agriculture moved the infected area line from a)above to a line from Newcastle in the N.east to Gloucester on 1.1.95. It should be moved again soon but Wales and some North west areas still want to be protected by being kept outside the line.) Questions/Theories: 1. Are swarms more likely to migrate in the direction of the prevailing wind? Are the preceding scouts more likely to search "downwind" than "upwind"? 2. If hives are infected as a result of robbing, do robber bees tend to attack weak colonies that are upwind as a result of say, more easily detected alarm/fear pheromones or the scent of poorly protected or exposed stores? 3. How is Varroa distributed apart from movement by beekeepers? Drones are known to drift considerably but do they carry Varroa? Do they drift with the wind? I regret this message is so long. Living with Varroa makes you realise your lack of knowledge of basics even after years of beekeeping. PS. Nobody I know supports the theory of Bumblebee involvement. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:48:07 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Seppo Korpela Subject: Re: Varroa Distribution buzz@mail.zynet.co.uk (Glyn Davies) wrote: > across southern England. The Government twice drew a line making it > illegal to transport bees or equipment to the North. These were not > observed by the mite and the line is soon to be redrawn for the third > time towards the Scotland/England border. Concerning the regulations on preventing the spread of the varroa mite. When Finland joined the EU it became clear that we no more can continue keeping a barrier zone between the infested and noninfested part of the country and set regulations to prevent transporting bee colonies over and into this zone. As I understood the background of the decision is set in EU directive 92/65, Article 15. In Finland this has been interpreted so, that if we want to maintain the zone system to prevent the transport of bees to non-infested areas from infested area in Finland and the rest of EU we should have a national program for the varroa mite control. This should include a surveillance of the mite-free area to show that this area is really mite-free. Now it has been considered a program that would be too expensive compared to the benefit from it. Although there still is a considerable part of the country in the former "varroa-free" zone the bee population in this zone is estimated to be only ca. 10 % of total bee population of the country. Do you in UK have such a program running in the non-infested area as you have been able to maintain zoning the country to prevent transporting bees to varroa free parts of the country? > Its spread appears to be in the direction of UK's strongly prevailing > summer/autumn winds. That is from the south west. The mite has moved > hundreds of miles to the northeast but Cornwall, just to the south west Without commenting on your questions I give just an opposite case of Varroa spread. Here in Finland the mite was first detected on south-eastern border to Russia in 1980. Due to regulations on the movement of bee colonies we have been quite succesful to contain the mite to the south-eastern part of the country. However, the mite has spread slowly west- and northwards from the point of original detection but considerable parts of the counry are still free from Varroa 16 years since the first detection (see my WWW-page www.mtt.fi/mtt/ksl/erikois/beepage2.htm showing the spread of the mite in south and central Finland). The prevailing winds in summer and autumn are similarly from southwest. ============================================================================= * Seppo Korpela Agricultural Research Center of Finland * * Phone INT + 358 16 4188 576 Institute of Plant Protection * * FAX INT + 358 16 4188 584 FIN-31600 Jokioinen * * E-mail Seppo.Korpela@mtt.fi Finland * ============================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:57:02 -0500 Reply-To: MTS@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: India and Nepalese beekeeping--any ideas? Comments: To: entomo-l@uoguelph.ca Comments: cc: RAFCIO77@VM.AMU.EDU.PL ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 13:17:39 +0100 (CET) From:RAFCIO77@VM.AMU.EDU.PL To: mts@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Subject: Be so kind and give me some experienced advices about bees on the area of India and Nepal. I am going to make fieldworks in the mentioned teritory in the sit uation of shortage of data.As an ethnographer I am especialy interested in connections between bees and ethnic groups but not only.Any answer will be grea tly appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:04:30 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Feeding Sugar Syrup; Concentrations? Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Gentlepeople: I have been silent on the list for some time but, despite the near record cold in OHIO, now it is close to the time to begin getting ready for spring and a question has raised itself. I have read that feeding syrup in the colder weather should be of a 2:1 concentration...but, I also read that spring feeding should be 1:1 concentration. Another dilemna. I am getting ready to spring feed with syrup and Fumidil and would like to glean some of your experiences. Does it really matter what the concentration of the syrup? If it does, what determines what concentration one should use at what time of year? An additional question regards the shelf life of Terra. Last year I mixed some terrapatties using vegetable shortening and a package of terra. The patties I did not use I put in the deep freeze and have kept them there since last spring. Would they still be good? Last question: With what pollen patty mixture recipes have you had success? Thanks loads for all the good information. Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:28:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Coloured foundation Further to Allen Dick's comment about bees working dark Ross Rounds better than white: 1) To clarify, Allen: The dark parts you refer to: This is the outer structure that guides the bees to finish the combs consistently at the same thickness, right? The foundation, and even the plastic rings in contact with the foundation, are the same in each case (plain wax and clear plastic, respectively). 2) at the recent Amer Beekeeping Federation meeting in Portland, at a panel discussion of wood + wax vs plastic frames, Bob Brandi of California mentioned his experience with plastic foundation made of different colours (colors in his case): dark plastic foundations were consistently drawn first, in a super containing a selection of colours they had some foundation made in black plastic: it was well accepted, but wax would separate from the plastic when supers were brought into the hot room (the foundation got too hot?) they have compromised by having the foundation made in green, combining the advantages of the 2 points above. I wonder, what is the physics behind the bees' recognition of these colours in the "dark". Perhaps one of our members familiar with heat conduction, radiation etc can tell us. what is the biological advantage of the bees preference (is it as simple as the universal human quest for warm fuzzies? From the practical beekeeping point of view, how much does it matter? If bees don't have the choice, will they be more easily induced to build comb faster in all dark foundation (or the opposite in white foundation?) I suppose the observations of plain plastic vs waxed plastic foundation might apply (ie it depends more on conditions than foundation: lots of young bees + good honeyflow + hot weather = comb building) One thing the pannel could not comment on: is there a difference in bees winter success on plastic vs wax foundation (everyone on the panel wintered their bees in the warm south). There was a comment about plastic not conducting heat as well as wax (meant as a criticism of plastic, though it seems it should be an advantage) but no one had a strong opinion. What has been your experience, Allen, Jean-Pierre? Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:52:32 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis > I'm considering getting a propolis trap this season. I never > thought I would intentionally try to get this stuff, but the prices > I've seen for it are really amazing. I don't know about trapping, but a few years ago we sent some some sample hive scrapings to an outfit in the States that advertised in the magazines. Normal hive scrapings when floated in water will separate into propolis (and dirt) on the bottom and wax on top. This latter material was what they wanted. After getting a price from them based on the quality, we proceeded to separate and ship some more of the same barrel of scrapings to them. They paid about two thirds what they promised and never paid the rest. I sent a few (unanswered) letters and gave up because we were only talking about $50 or so. But, we gave up on selling propolis. The moral of the story: Check out prospective buyers reputations before you sell to them. I imagine there are honest buyers, but these (well advertised) guys weren't. Good luck. And let us know how it works out. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:13:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Estimating bee populations Interesting line of discussion going on current, re: colored wax. We all know that old comb with more volatile odors is more attractive, but COLOR? Very interesting. I have another question, that I know the answer exists, but I haven't been able to find it in H&HB or ABC...yet. How many bees can cover a deep frame, both sides? How many capped bees can occupy a deep frame, assuming in both the maximum number of bees/brood can fit on a deep. Anyone have some references? Thanks, DIana Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 Phone: (216) 263 3684 Fax: (216) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:31:58 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis In-Reply-To: On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Ann Dougherty wrote: > I'm considering getting a propolis trap this season. I never > thought I would intentionally try to get this stuff, but the prices I've > seen for it are really amazing. > > I assume the trap is a repetitively spaced gizmo smaller than a > bee space that invites the bees to fill it up. I've never seen one and > would like some information. How well do they work and what is the ease > of use? > Ann, I was looking thru some of the last few American Bee Journals for the product that they made to collect propulis. What I have seen in some articals was a sheet of plastic netting with 1/8 inch holes in it. They lay it over the frames and the bee try to fill it up. Then you take the sheet out and out it in a freezer. The next day you bend the plastic back and forth and the propulis breaks off because it is very brittle. If I can find some info I will let you know. My two oldest are over at the U of Wash now. One Sr. and one Fresh.My Daughter is in Mc man House and I could send her back with some info. Have a Great Day Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:43:42 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Seeing in the dark > Further to Allen Dick's comment about bees working dark Ross > Rounds better than white: > > 1) To clarify, Allen: The dark parts you refer to: This is the > outer structure that guides the bees to finish the combs > consistently at the same thickness, right? The foundation, and > even the plastic rings in contact with the foundation, are the > same in each case (plain wax and clear plastic, respectively). > Correct. Actually the rings which surround the section and form sides of the retail container are somewhere between clear and a cloudy white. Immediately behind them is the solid frame that supports all, and can be white or chocolate brown. > I wonder, what is the physics behind the bees' recognition of > these colours in the "dark". Perhaps one of our members familiar > with heat conduction, radiation etc can tell us. That's what I want to know. Maybe they can detect absorption and reflection of the infra red spectrum (which we experience as 'heat'). We can - crudely - but our perceptions are using our skin which lacks directional resolution and imaging capability. Can bees detect an amount of their own heat returned from objects and use it in an analagous way to how 'visible light' is used by us and bees - to 'see'? And, if so, can they resolve these reflections into useful images - somewhat as we do with the visible light spectrum? Do they have an 'eye' that sees at these frequencies? As I recall, their vision does not have any focusing ability, and yet they are able to use the mosaic images they receive to navigate better than many persons. Perhaps there are areas either the bee eye itself, or cells on the body, or even on the antennae that are able to generate output similar - using infra red (heat) - to what the bee eyes do using what we regard as visible light - and provide sufficient information to allow the bees to 'see' in their home. If so they *can* 'see' in the darkness of the hive, because to them it is not dark, but lighted by their own bodies and the internal radiation from the hive boxes when heated by the sun or ambient air. If we were to establish that were true, then the question is: are transparent plastic boxes transparent to infra red? If the plastic is transparent at infra red frequencies, then the bees can indeed 'see' the amount of space in the next box as clearly as if there were no divider. I've always wondered that they would have evolved to live strictly by feel and scent inside a dark hive and be able to accomplish what they do. > One thing the pannel could not comment on: is there a difference > in bees winter success on plastic vs wax foundation (everyone on > the panel wintered their bees in the warm south). There was a > comment about plastic not conducting heat as well as wax (meant > as a criticism of plastic, though it seems it should be an > advantage) but no one had a strong opinion. What has been your > experience, Allen, Jean-Pierre? I haven't any observations, *but* I was planning to buy 10,000 Pierco frames and strangely enough, was going to have them made in dark brown simply because I hate the look of white frames! (Old beekeeper's Instinct? They will colour them to taste (no charge) if you order 10,000 or more. I have been having misgivings because I was wondering about the appearance to me of white comb on dark foundation. Glad you dropped by with your comments. I don't know what I think of green. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:59:38 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Thanks for the information My dad said I could use his email to say thank you for all the information. Dad brings the email home to me every day and I read it. Also thanks to everyone with an internet home page. I used the resources of the Bee-Log and information from various internet sites to help me write my entry in the 4-H Beekeeping essay this year. I didn't win for oklahoma, but will try again next year. Thank you for making this information available. Patrick Barnes 7th grader Duncan, OK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:21:28 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Farber Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <199602071226.AA28701@internode.net> I, too, sent a small amount of propolis to what sounds like the same large outfit. I had to write for a cheque and when it arrived it was about one half of what I expected. Ian Farber Westsyde Apiaries 3249 Schubert Road Kamloops, B.C., Canada V2B 6Y4 604-579-8518 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:01:01 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis At 07:51 2/6/96 -0800, you wrote: > I'm considering getting a propolis trap this season. I never >thought I would intentionally try to get this stuff, but the prices I've >seen for it are really amazing. > > I assume the trap is a repetitively spaced gizmo smaller than a >bee space that invites the bees to fill it up. I've never seen one and >would like some information. How well do they work and what is the ease >of use? > > Once propolis is collected, what is the best way to make it into >powder? If anyone has any other tips they would be greatly appreciated. > > >Ann Dougherty >Kirkland, WA. usa! Hello, Ann, I'll answer this one, since I'm very much into propolis. I have two different traps. One is a very flexible "fabric?" (I don't know how else to describe it) made from a green colored plastic. It is merely a sheet that is the same dimensions as the hive body and lays just under the top cover. The problem with this one is that it lays on the top of the frames. This only allows the bees to access it between the frames which drastically reduces the amount of propolis that can be trapped. However, I like it because it can be folded smaller, for placement in the freezer. The other trap I have is a rigid, black plastic, the same size ass the hive body, that always holds that shape; so it's bulky to put in the freezer. The problem that I found with this one ( besides hard to put in the freezer) was that it sat flush against the top cover and so the bees, mostly, ignored it. It did trap some. So, my opinion is that the green flexible one is better, but need to be improved upon. I'm trying to figure out a way to make a frame that I can put it in and then take it out to freeze it. As far as the grinding into powder is concerned, it's best to take from the trap, right out of the freezer, and grind it in a blender, while it's still frozen. So far, it's worked like a charm for me, every time. Hope this helps. Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 01:05:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis In a message dated 96-02-06 22:54:05 EST, >anndough@U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Ann Dougherty)< writes: > I assume the trap is a repetitively spaced gizmo smaller than a >bee space that invites the bees to fill it up. I've never seen one and >would like some information. How well do they work and what is the ease >of use? Try to talk your local nursery out of some scrap pieces of shade cloth. (Swap for honey?) Cut them into 16 x 20 pieces and lay them over the top bars, just under the cover. When there is plenty of propolis coated on them, pull the sheets and lay them in a frezer. It will then be simple to knock out the propolis. Mention to your local health food store that you have fresh, local propolis, and you won't have to worry about markets. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David De Jong Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis In-Reply-To: Here we use a plain plastic screen. It works fine. David De Jong Brazil On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Ann Dougherty wrote: > > > I'm considering getting a propolis trap this season. I never > > thought I would intentionally try to get this stuff, but the prices I've > > seen for it are really amazing. > > > > I assume the trap is a repetitively spaced gizmo smaller than a > > bee space that invites the bees to fill it up. I've never seen one and > > would like some information. How well do they work and what is the ease > > of use? > > > Ann, I was looking thru some of the last few American Bee Journals for > the product that they made to collect propulis. What I have seen in some > articals was a sheet of plastic netting with 1/8 inch holes in it. They > lay it over the frames and the bee try to fill it up. Then you take the > sheet out and out it in a freezer. The next day you bend the plastic back > and forth and the propulis breaks off because it is very brittle. > If I can find some info I will let you know. My two oldest are over at > the U of Wash now. One Sr. and one Fresh.My Daughter is in Mc man House > and I could send her back with some info. > Have a Great Day > Roy Nettlebeck > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 08:10:28 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Estimating bee populations In-Reply-To: On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Diana Sammataro wrote: > Interesting line of discussion going on current, re: colored wax. We all > know that old comb with more volatile odors is more attractive, but COLOR? > Very interesting. > > I have another question, that I know the answer exists, but I haven't been > able to find it in H&HB or ABC...yet. > How many bees can cover a deep frame, both sides? How many capped bees can > occupy a deep frame, assuming in both the maximum number of bees/brood can > fit on a deep. Anyone have some references? > > Thanks, DIana I don't know about the number of bees on a frame but I consider there to be 25 cells per square inch. Therefore, if the brood patch was 4 x 5 there would be 20 x 25 = 500 bees in these cells...and likely more on the other side. A comb holds an awful lot of bees. Eric Eric Abell email: eabell@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Gibbons, AB, T0A 1N0 Canada (403) 998 3143 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:50:34 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Estimating bee populations One old beekeeper told me the following measure: One bee covers round three cells and a squer 10 x 10 cm contains round 800 cells (both sides). This means that one Lnagstroth frame 448 x 232 mm has about 8,6 dm2 - let's consider 8 dm2 of comb what represents 6.400 of cells which can be covered by round 2.200 bees. From this ratio one can estimate that one frame of brood (corner to corner) will serve bees for three frames withing the maximum period of three veeks (or sooner if the brood had been partially or totally capped). Even if not quite accurate this way of thinking is wery practical in evaluating colonies and their development. Best regards, Vladimir Ptacek ---------------------------------------------------------------- Fac. Sci., Dpt. Anim. Physiol. E.mail: ptacek@sci.muni.cz Masaryk University phone: .42/5/41129 562 611 37 Brno, Czech Republic fax: .42/5/41211 214 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 06:56:52 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Seeing in the dark Different but related: Some years ago, there was the story around that 'The bees don't like the black plastic queen cells' (plastic queen cells for grafting into). Me, I immediately thought "Huh, how could they know in the dark?" But it turned out to be true, but not because of the colour. Seems a batch of the cells had been moulded using a different release agent (?) in the moulds, and it was enough subtle smell difference to make them unacceptable... --------------------------------------------------------- Nick Wallingford, President National Beekeepers Assn of NZ email: nickw@wave.co.nz NZ Beekeeping: www.internode.net/~allend/nz/profile.html --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:15:22 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Ross Rounds vs Hogg Halfs The Recent ABJ article on Hogg Half Combs piqued my interest and I'm anxious to do a personal comparison to the Ross Round Sections. I ordered and received my conversion kit for Hogg Half Combs (HHC). The Hogg system is just different enough from the Ross Rounds to warrant conversion kits for those who aren't equipped with the carpentry tools to work the wood. The long follower boards (fbs) are made of pressed composite board, and are machined so they have little feet on the bottom and slightly routed on the top. The purpose of the feet is to have the fbs stand on tin supports nailed on the bottom of the super and allow bees to pass under the fbs. The short width fbs are made of the same material as an inner cover (mason board is it called?), hence they're only 1/4 in thick. One each of a short and long fb are nailed to the super with a spacer between the fb and the super wall. The other two fbs are held in place with super springs. Once a super is converted, loading the Hogg cassettes takes about a minute! A considerable labor saver over the Ross Rounds. But then you're into the same production concerns that have always been associated with the square vs round sections. I'm wondering if the bees will avoid the corners. I'm also skeptical about the claim that seeing through the plastic encourages the bees to fill the cassettes faster, although recent color discussion on BEE-L offers reasonable speculation. And a final concern I have is that the plastic cassettes make it impossible to cut through the comb section. The consumer will have to scrape the comb off the bottom of the plastic cassette rather than cutting out a chunk of the Ross Round. The midrib foundation is not present in the Hogg cassette so the beeswax will be more delicate, but I'm not sure that will matter to the consumer. Doing some arithmetic to compare profit margins between the two systems was also revealing. My analysis excludes labor costs to prepare the supers, as I am a small potatoes hobbiest and my labor costs are my own free time. Unfortunately I don't have my scratch pad here as I type this, so the figures I'm about to quote are from memory. I usually sell my produce in lots of a dozen to vegetable stands and country markets and target $25 for a dozen rounds. I figured my cost for a round section to include the cost of the rings, foundation, covers, labels and honey (with a honey price of .08 cents per oz), which comes to about $17 and change for a dozen rounds or about $7 and change profit on a dozen rounds. If I do the same math for the HHC, my cost price is about $23 and change, so for the same profit margin I need to sell a dozen for about $31, so my customers' customers will have to pay more for the final product (which is reasonable because they'll be purchasing 4 oz more of honey) but human nature is such that I suspect the customer will object to a price higher than what they've become accustomed to in the RRs. But this is merely speculation on my part and I really won't know how the marketplace plays out until this summer. Labor savings for HHCs are undeniably significant, especially if one is paying hired help. But it may be the case that what one saves in labor could be lost in production by the bees or sales at the marketplace or both. At this point in time I'm leaning towards the RR, but I suspect that I may be exhibiting a certain amount of resistance to change. Final analysis will be made around Labor Day. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:25:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Feeding Sugar Syrup; Concentrations? > "Mark D. Egloff" wrote > I have read that feeding syrup in the colder weather should be of a > 2:1 concentration...but, I also read that spring feeding should be 1:1 > concentration. My info states 1-1 in the spring to stimulate and simulate incoming nectar, this way brooding speeds up. > > An additional question regards the shelf life of Terra. Last year I > mixed some terrapatties using vegetable shortening and a package of > terra. The patties I did not use I put in the deep freeze and have > kept them there since last spring. Would they still be good? I store unused Terra (sealed) in the deep freeze and it's good from year to year. It seems to be the ingress of air which damages it in storing. Sorry I can't help with pollen info, I only use pollen substitute. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:26:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis >On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Ann Dougherty wrote: > >> I'm considering getting a propolis trap this season. I never The easiest way I have found, is regular fibreglass bug (window) screen, held (one bee space) above the top bars. They fill it with propolis, deep freeze it, and it comes off very easily and incidently clean. That's most important, if you can find an honest buyer. One final point, the best time is late summer when the bees have filled supers up top, they seem to produce more of that "#$%&*!" sticky stuff!!!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:26:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Propolis >I, too, sent a small amount of propolis to what sounds like the same large >outfit. I had to write for a cheque and when it arrived it was about one >half of what I expected. I know the rules on slander and libel-(before someone jumps on me)- it's just a pity we can't find out who these bad companies are, without having to go through the problem of dealing with them first!! These days it seems it's the norm, to rip off customers. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:57:00 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Hawkes, Robert" Subject: FW: Hearing in bees I forward to the list the following response from William F. Towne who has researched the roll of sound in honeybee communication. Robert Hawkes West Chester, Pennsylvania rhawkes@wcupa.edu ---------- From: William F. Towne To: Hawkes, Robert Subject: Hearing in bees Date: Wednesday, February 07, 1996 11:26AM Hi Bob. I do not subscribe to BEE-L, but I will reply here to your recent inquiry. You are welocme to forward it if you think BEE-L subscribers would be interested. We now know that bees can detect sounds. They receive airborne sounds with their antennae and substrate-borne vibrations with the subgenual organs in their legs. Queen piping is detected as comb vibrations with the subgenual organs. The antennal receptors are used in detecting the sounds produced by dancing bees and possibly for other puropses as well. A recent review of these things, especially airborne sound reception, is: Dreller, C., and W.H. Kirchner (1995) The sense of hearing in honey bees. Bee World 76(1): 6-17. See also the references therein. Another review is: Kirchner, W.H., and W.F. Towne (1994) The sensory basis of the honey bee's dance language. Scientific American 270(6): 52-59. Hope that's helpful. Let me know if you want more. Perhaps I will see you on March 1, as I will be at West Chester to give a seminar. Best regards, Will ========================================================================== William F. Towne, Department of Biology Kutztown University, Kutztown, PA 19530 Phone: (610)683-4317 fax: (610)683-1352 e-mail: towne@kutztown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:19:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Ross Rounds vs Hogg Halfs Hi Aaron. I was running the rounds for a few years and basically decided to give it up in favor of cut comb. The packaging for rounds gets expensive and if you wholesale them like I was doing, it isn't worth the reduced overall production per hive. With cut comb you can extract it if it doesn't look nice. Plus, there have in recent years been new containers on the market which are cheap and ideally suited to cut comb. On the other hand, the sections will granulate slower, in my experience (but the larger combs can be frozen & kept until needed and then cut). I have also done away with the need for foundation sheets in the shallow frames by wedging a 1" or so wide strip of foundation into the top bar groove with three small (1") pieces of cardboard. This is quick and easy. Bend the cardboard and shove it into the groove with hive tool, pinching foundation strip in. Upon cutting the finished product, a narrow ridge of comb is left for the bees to build onto next time. Usually they will follow it. I wasn't producing loads of sections, about 1500/yr, but the rounds were my only supers at that time. I split the colonies into 2-queen units like John Hogg has described in the literature, one chamber per queen. That really got them into the supers. They wanted to swarm, though, badly. Later on i gave this up and I tried reducing colonies at swarming time (early-mid May) to 4 good frames of mostly capped brood and the queen (remove swarm cells!) in the single brood chamber, the balance being filled with empty combs. The rest of the brood with adhering bees made up a new colony for another stand. Supered the parent, single brood chambers with round sections. The results were amazing. The bees in the parent colony gave up on queen cell building and went crazy in the sections. Still had all the field bees and evidently enough brood kept emerging to keep things at optimum. Had I left more brood I think they would have kept building swarm cells. Anyway, hives had sometimes 6-8 cobanas (over an excluder) in a short time. No more swarming trouble and beautiful sections. Splits were re-united in August providing nice new queens. I then would get a crop (inconsistent) of fall honey sections. Basically, I loved the idea of the sections but there was too much luck (work?) involved in getting the bees up onto them and in getting them completed evenly every year. Actually a more striking reason for me is that I couldn't well afford the supers as I was expanding. Richard Taylor seemed disappointed I might add, when I gave them up. In my experience the bees produce more honey pound for pound when given frames than when given sections. It is crucial, however, for cut-comb that the package looks sharp. I have seen many hideous packages that make it look terrible. I had a lot of luck with the midget cut comb boxes which are 2 1/2 inches square. They sell great but the clear plastic boxes are also too expensive IMO. Food for thought. If you can get a great price and can buy the rings, caps, etc. in large quantities then you're probably all set. If you have good crops that you can pretty much count on, all the better. If I'd had the capital I probably would have gone with the rounds for good, then concentrated more on management and choice of locations. But I began inheriting regular supers and wanted to just have one comb/extracted frame for uniformity. I haven't tried the Hogg sections but I have corresponded with John. The units I saw advertized were still pretty pricey. I feel comb honey should be more prominent on the market. People find it interesting and they will go a long way to get it. Good luck in your endeavors; always make the package look superb and it will sell itself. This is easy with the sections you are using. But I've also seen underweight, uncapped, and leaky rounds on the market which do us no favors in promotion. (I think the opaque cover on one side is a lousy idea too.) Wishing you a huge 96 crop with nice white cappings.... JWG P.S. The best bees I've tried for the sections are Buckfast. They work cleanly with nice wax and without much swarming tendency. You might give them a try for fun. Joel Govostes Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:44:03 EST Reply-To: "Glen B. Glater" Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Glen B. Glater" Subject: Re: Propolis David said: >I know the rules on slander and libel-(before someone jumps on me)- it's >just a pity we can't find out who these bad companies are, without having to >go through the problem of dealing with them first!! These days it seems it's >the norm, to rip off customers. It seems to me that if someone had a bad experience with a company and relayed the *FACTS* of the interaction to us with no attempt to determine cause then it is not slander and/or libel. This happens routinely on the Net in computer related groups. Just give the facts, and you should be fine, and you can save some of your fellow bee-folks the pain of finding out what you already know. Just MHO, of course. I'm not a lawyer, nor am I able to provide legal advice. But I do like honey... --glen ************************************************************** Midnight Networks Inc. * 200 Fifth Avenue * Waltham, MA 02154 Glen B. Glater Principal, Strategic Networking Group Phone: (617) 890-1001 Fax: (617) 890-0028 Internet: glen@midnight.com http://www.midnight.com/~glen Midnight Networks Inc. WWW page http://www.midnight.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:45:25 PST Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Honey Treats Honey Enthusiasts, On a lighter and more tasty note, Does anyone have a recipe for combining honey and ground almonds into a delicious spread for cakes, buns or just on Bread? Is there an internet subscription list for honeybee products,their development, production and marketing? Cheers :-) Buzz. Glyn Davies, Ashburton,Devon. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:14:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Feeding Sugar Syrup; Concentrations? You feed 2/1 syrup when you want the bees to treat it as pure food, and possibly store it away. That is why 2/1 is fed in the Fall and Winter. You'll sometimes hear 1/1 feeding called stimulative feeding. You feed 1/1 syrup when you want to encourage the colony to increase in size (as well as eat). Hence, 1/1 is fed to new colonies, weak colonies, and in general when we want to build up colony population. 1/1 is fed in early spring because we want to have the largest possible colony for the honeyflow. In Central Maryland, the honeyflow normally starts sometime in the last two weeks of April, so we start feeding 1/1 about the middle of February. That way, the colony hits the honeyflow with the maximum number of foragers. Package bee producers will also stimulative feed 1/1 so they have lots of bees to sell. But, before you rush out and stimulative feed, remember that until the honeyflow starts, a large colony requires the most dilligent efforts to keep from swarming. And, if that happens, all you may get out of the 1/1 feeding is an interesting phone call from your neighbor. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:18:44 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: krengel lawrence e Subject: Re: Feeding Sugar Syrup; Concentrations? In-Reply-To: <960208181444_217471114@emout04.mail.aol.com> If you have three beekeepers in the same room, you will get at least three different opinions on most subjects. Sugar syrup is one of those subjects. I continue to use what has worked for me. 2/1 in the fall when I want the bees to store it like honey. 1/2 - that's pretty thin - in the spring when I want them to think it came from flowers... and therefore the queen goes into high gear with her egg laying. Here in Illinois, it seems that the honey flow comes very suddenly and those springs I have not feed I found the colonies were not as strong as I would wish when there was a lot of honey to be made. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL Home of C. C. Miller and host area for the Midwest Beekeeping Symposium. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:53:39 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Charles Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Bee Gif's I am looking for some color gifs of the different speices of bees. Does anyone know of a source on the internet where these can be downloaded? Rick Grubbs digital@avana.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:51:54 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Honey treats Hi bee-liners ! On Thu, 8 Feb 1996 Glyn Davies asked : > On a lighter and more tasty note, Does anyone have a recipe for > combining honey and ground almonds into a delicious spread for cakes, > buns or just on Bread? The main compound I know with these two is named "nougat" (I don't know the english term. We had had a recipe in the last "La Belgique Apicole" issue : entitled: - Nougat de Carthage - ingredients : 1 kg honey, 4 eggs, 1 kg of almonds I'm not able to translate this in correct english (too difficult terms for me) See the process in french, sorry, translating isn't warranty ! Les amandes doivent e^tre bien se`ches au pre'alable, soit a` l'e'tuve, soit au four doux, afin qu'elles ne renferment plus d'humidite'. => First, well dry the almonds, either in a drying-room, either in an oven (mild!). They must be very dry. Cuire le miel au petit casse', en ayant soin de bien brasser pour qu'il ne s'attache pas. => (+-) cook the honey at the "petit-casse'" state. Stir continuously to avoid the attachment?. Fouetter les blancs d'oeufs en neige et les me'langer au miel. => Beat? the white of the eggs in snow ?? and put them in the honey with stirring. Apre`s cette addition, mode'rer le feu et remuer constamment avec une cuiller en bois pour e'viter l'e'bullition. = Diminish the heating while stirring with a wood spoon to avoid boilling ? Laisser sur le feu jusqu'a` ce que le miel, que les blancs d'oeufs auront mouille', ait repris la cuisson au casse'. = Let on the fire? till the honey return to the "petit-casse'" state. Cette cuisson obtenue, me^ler a` cette pa^te les amandes douces e'monde'es et bien se'che'es d'avance. => Put the well dry almonds while stiring. Dresser sur des oublies ou pains d'hostie, de l'e'paisseur ordinaire (+-2 cm) et couper le nougat en bandes avant qu'il ne soit tout a` fait froid. = Put on some host bread? at the common thickness (+-2 cm) and cut in bands before total chill? NB. On reconnait que le miel est cuit au casse' quand, trempant la pointe d'un couteau dans le sirop et le laissant refroidir, le miel se casse si on le frappe sur l'angle de la table. => to know when the honey is at the "petit-casse'" state : put the point of a knife in the syrup, let them to chill and knock? the table border? : it's ok if the honey breaks. > Is there an internet subscription list for honeybee products,their > development, production and marketing? I don't know but I'm also interested. Hope this will interest some greedy? guys (and some other of course)! Jean-Marie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:27:07 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Invitation to Ontario Comments: To: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Hi Tom, I am Medhat Nasr. I work for the Ontario Beekeepers Association as Tec-transfer Extension Apiculturist and Doug McRory, the Provincial Apiculturist. We plan to offer an extension course "Beekeeping Beyond 2000 during the period from March 13-14, 1996. This course will cover Beekeeping Managements:Present and Future, IPM of Mites, Breeding bees for Hygienic behaviour, and TM resistance, Economics of bees and Impacts of NAFTA and GATT on bees and Honey. We are having the Following speakers: Eric Mussen (U.C., Davis), Gary Hergart (Ag. Canada), T. Szabo (Ag. Canada), C. Scott-Dupree(U.O. Guelph), D. McRory (OMAFRA), Barry Davies (Onatrio Bee Breereders' Association), Medhat Nasr (OBA). We would like to extend our invitation to join this group and bee one of our guest speakers. All the expenses will be covered by the OBA. I would like to consider this invitation and hear from you soon. Thank You, Medhat Nasr P.S. I think "we will meet next week in Quebec meeting" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:45:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: stan sandler Subject: Re: Honey Treats >On a lighter and more tasty note, Does anyone have a recipe for combining >honey and ground almonds into a delicious spread for cakes, buns or just >on Bread? Dear Glyn: Jean Marie's recipe for nougat sounds great, but I don't know if you could spread it as you suggested. The following recipe is probably 3000 years old!!!! It uses walnuts, but it can be made with almonds and is just as good. It is one of the traditional ceremonial dishes on the Passover plate, and is called "charoseth". : --one half cup ground walnut -- one quarter teaspoon cinnamon --one apple, peeled and grated -- three tablespoons wine --a little honey to your taste (depends on the wine and apple sweetness) Mix together until smooth (a blender works just fine). Don't overdo the honey. This was spread on unleavened bread but tastes nice on anything, even mixed with "bitter herbs"(horseradish) as in the Passover ceremony. Stan Sandler Milk and honey farm. P.S. There is also a jewish candy, similar to nougat, that is made from 1/2 cup sugar, 2 cups honey, 2 pounds poppy seeds and 2 cups almonds. cook over low heat for 30 minutes with stirring (then add the nuts), pour onto a wet board, pat down and cool. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:46:23 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Maura Jess Subject: definitive? Comments: cc: moorec@umbsky.cc.umb.edu, SOCINSCT@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU, GREENBER@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU, cveldink@ctc.ctc.edu, gmichel@condor.depaul.edu, schram@popmail.bio.uva.nl, HPSST-L@QUCDN.QueensU.CA, barthell@aix1.ucok.edu, VADAS@MAINE.MAINE.EDU The following message is sent by Adrian Wenner (wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu). Please submit all replies to him (not REPLY function). Thank you. Over some of these networks, I earlier (1/24/96) provided a list of 16 facts that counter claims that honey bees have a "language," facts that (by contrast) mesh well with the competing odor-search hypothesis. Later (1/31/96) I provided a dissection of the bee language controversy into some five of its essential elements so the various points could be addressed without too much confusion. Nevertheless, questions arose, and several individuals asked me to provide more input on some items. In an earlier transmission about the bee language controversy I had written: "One can neither prove a hypothesis true nor prove it false." Despite that caution and reservations expressed by other respondents, language proponents have avoided addressing the 16 troublesome facts posted earlier. They instead emphasized vague notions such as "compromise" hypotheses, "overwhelming evidence," and "definitive experiments," comments that can be addressed easily, as follows: COMPROMISE HYPOTHESES During the 1940s and 1950s, geneticists debated whether protein or DNA carried the genetic information between generations. However, where would genetic engineering be today if they had settled on a compromise hypothesis (e.g., sometimes DNA is responsible and sometimes protein)? No, they turned to STRONG INFERENCE experiments and resolved the issue in favor of DNA (protein is involved in other processes). DEFINITIVE EXPERIMENTS: "ROBOT" BEES. When the robot bee episode began (after many had lost faith in the significance of "misdirection" experiments), it received a great deal of media attention (as did "cold fusion"). We studied the experimental results as published in the original 1989 NATURWISSENSCHAFTEN article but found that the results actually did not differ from random (see Wenner, Meade, and Friesen, 1991, "Recruitment, Search Behavior, and Flight Ranges of Honey Bees." American Zoologist 31:768-782). When one of those investigators visited my laboratory three years ago, I showed him that results in one of his papers indicated that searching bees (after leaving a robot bee) required about two HOURS to reach a target station located less than a MINUTE flight time away. His response: "Here, let me show you some other results." DEFINITIVE EXPERIMENTS: OCELLI-BLINDED "MISDIRECTION" EXPERIMENTS. We treated a basic flaw in the experimental protocol of the misdirection experiments on pages 252 and 253 of our book: Wenner & Wells, 1990, Anatomy of a Controversy: The Question of a "Language" Among Bees (Columbia University Press). In there we described how one cannot reconcile the results of the ocelli-blinding experiments (nor the experimental design) with other experimental results published by the same author five years earlier. Neither do the protocol or conclusions mesh with the results of other ocelli-blinding experiments published by Renner and Heinzeller (bees with ocelli totally blinded could not function normally). I also draw attention of the reader to two other relevant porrtions of that book (with respect to this issue): Excursus NEG ("Negation of the Dance Language Hypothesis") and Excursus GT ("The Method of Training Bees"). When we executed the STRONG INFERENCE design experiments in a second series of experiments (summarized in chap. 10 of our book), we published ALL the results of three-hour runs for each of 24 consecutive days. [In those experiments, recruits did not arrive at target stations supposedly indicated by dance information but instead at a remote station scented with the odor brought in by bees the day before.] By contrast, the first blackened occeli misdirection report (NATURE, 1974) relied for its conclusion on results obtained during three one-half hour runs (perhaps out of 33 of that type run that season) of SINGLE-CONTROL design experiments. Furthermore, (if I read the available material correctly and as an example), those same three one-half hour data sets, augmented by an additional half hour set of results, were published again (in different formats) in the 1975 SCIENCE and 1976 QUARTERLY REVIEW OF BIOLOGY articles (cited earlier in this exchange by others); those other displays thus do not represent replicates of the experimental results published earlier in NATURE, as one might suppose. Neither NATURE nor SCIENCE would permit us a simple reply to those challenges of our work, but I can furnish a revealing critique of those experiments by regular mail to anyone interested. One can also read chapter 13 of our book for a summary of Rosin's independent critical analyses of those experiments. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Wax Required Another request from the Web for wax. This Lady lives in Dayton, Ohio and is looking for wax. Can someone help her, please? "Wilson, April" **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:03:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "William Nelson@Aol.Com" Subject: A sad passing I was just informed by his Son that Leo Bentz of Woodstock, IL. passed away this January. Leo was recently featured in the ABJ editorial section as possibley the oldest active commercial beekeeper in the US. Leo was born in 10/4/1899 in Grafton Wisconsin and passed away on January 15, 1996. Leo helped me get started in beekeeping in 1978 and was a very patient and gentle man. Leo had been a farmer and commercial beekeeper. He once told me that he started keeping bees in 1916 and had been keeping a homeyard at his house just outside of Woodstock, IL. U.S.A. since 1926. He kept bees until his death. I will miss him and I'm sure there are many that knew him that will miss him, he was fine man. Apiarist AKA: Bill Nelson Formerly of Woodstock, IL. Now of North Liberty, IN. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:25:32 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: INVITATION TO TOM SANFORD Bee-l recipients, I mailed by mistake a copy of my invitation to Tom Sanford to you. Sorry, Medhat Nasr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:32:31 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Spring is here! Into the bees today here in the Lone Star State where it hit 75 deg F today and gona *bee* 80 deg F tomorrow. Apistan in; entrance reducers out and Fire Ants starting their mounds. Still lots of honey in the hives. We'll have a couple more days of some chilly weather but for the most part: winter is over! Hives are FULL of bees and some patches of brood have begun developing. I'll be putting on some supers of foundation and pollen traps in a week or two. We are about one month away from the beginning of the prime swarmming season. It usually lasts about six weeks here in north Tejas. I averaged about 100 pounds of honey per hive last year and extracted once in the fall (first of September). Good luck everbody and wish you a bountiful harvest this year! BusyKnight Dallas, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James Mosvick Subject: Re: Bee Gif's Rick Grubbs digital@avana.net, writes: I am looking for some color gifs of the different speices of bees. Does anyone know of a source on the internet where these can be downloaded? +++++++++++++++ Try these sites: ftp://nic.funet.fi/disk2.nfs/picsnature/animals http://oliver.sun.ac.za/people/images/rw1 http://www.e.kth.se/BILD/000000/DJUR http://aazk.ind.net/animal_gifs/ My Favorite Bee! http://www.segaoa.com/tools/images/chat/icons/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:50:13 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jesse Helms Subject: Re: Spring is here! BusyKnight exclaims... >Into the bees today here in the Lone Star State where >it hit 75 deg F today and gona *bee* 80 deg F tomorrow. > >Apistan in; entrance reducers out and Fire Ants starting >their mounds. Still lots of honey in the hives. We'll >have a couple more days of some chilly weather but for the >most part: winter is over! > >Hives are FULL of bees and some patches of brood have begun >developing. I'll be putting on some supers of foundation >and pollen traps in a week or two. We are about one month >away from the beginning of the prime swarmming season. It >usually lasts about six weeks here in north Tejas. As a hobbyist entering my second year, I'd like to start off right but have some concerns. Frequent mention has been made that the Apistan strips should not be left in over the winter but I have done that(it got cold shortly after I put them in and has reached 50F for the first time today---I was afraid opening the hive to remove the strips would bother the cluster and chill the hive). The bees are everywhere today(though there appear to be no blooms for them to access and they are a bit of a nuisance)and in another week crocus and daffodil will bloom. Should I tilt up my upper brood chamber on the next 50 degree day and remove the strips? Should I feed? ...or should I leave well enough alone. I expect they have adequate honey stores as I left them with 2 large broodchambers and half a shallow super over the winter. Any advice? I'm at 49 degrees north latitude on the Pacific Coast(opposite Victoria, BC) and January has averaged close to 33F and wet. Its beginning to warm up but spring tends to be cool (40-60 degrees) here. ...boulder ############################################################################ ####### ...thou art not here for ease or sin, but manhood's noble crown to win. Through passion's fires are in the soul thy spirit can their flames control; though tempters strong beset thy way, thy spirit is more strong than they. Go on from innocence of youth to manyly pureness, manly truth; God's angels still are near to save, and God himself doth help the brave. Then forth to life, oh! child of earth be worthy of thy heavenly birth; for noble service thou art here, thy brother help, thy God revere! -Samuel Longfellow ######################################################################## ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:01:04 -0500 Reply-To: aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin R. Palm" Subject: Vanilla spray to neutralize queen pheromone Comments: cc: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Folks, I have just returned from my county beekeepers association meet- ing, and was talking to our county bee inspector about my upcoming split this spring. He told me that he had read about a solution of sugar syrup and vanilla extract that could be sprayed on both the new queen and the queenless hive. Once sprayed, the new queen could be immediately introduced directly to the hive since they now smelled the same. He couldn't remember the exact formula for making this solution, though. Has anyone had experience with this method, and does anyone have the recipe for it? Any help would be appreciated!! Thanks, Kevin Palm -- Kevin R. Palm | Beekeeper (1 hive, 1st year) Grafton, Ohio | Red Dwarf/Babylon 5/NYPD Blue/ER fan (25 miles SW of Cleveland) | Resident of the 100 Aker Wood aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu | Member IECC/IECG/NOST/ICCF ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 09:39:17 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: ARS Y-C-1 Queens Greetings, Has anyone had any experience with the ARS Y-C-1 bees which have been around for a year or so? I'm thinking of trying a few of them -- having read some wonderful things about them -- but was wondering how they have done for average beekeepers. Disposition? Productivity? Mite resistance? Swarming? I'll appreciate any feedback, either on the List or in my personal e-mail. Btw, I'm located in the norhtwestern part of the state of Virginia Thanks, Fred ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:45:12 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Reto Zehnder Subject: Unsubscribe Please unsubribe from Newsgroup ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 12:19:41 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Vanilla spray to neutralize queen pheromone Comments: To: "Kevin R. Palm" In-Reply-To: <199602100401.AA28355@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu> On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Kevin R. Palm wrote: > Folks, > > I have just returned from my county beekeepers association meet- > ing, and was talking to our county bee inspector about my upcoming split > this spring. He told me that he had read about a solution of sugar syrup > and vanilla extract that could be sprayed on both the new queen and the > queenless hive. Once sprayed, the new queen could be immediately introduced > directly to the hive since they now smelled the same. He couldn't remember > the exact formula for making this solution, though. Has anyone had experience > with this method, and does anyone have the recipe for it? Any help would > be appreciated!! > > Thanks, > Kevin Palm > > -- > Kevin R. Palm | Beekeeper (1 hive, 1st year) > Grafton, Ohio | Red Dwarf/Babylon 5/NYPD Blue/ER fan > (25 miles SW of Cleveland) | Resident of the 100 Aker Wood > aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu | Member IECC/IECG/NOST/ICCF > Kevin, I have used vanilla extract in a 1 to 1 sugar suryp. I use a one pint spray bottle.The spray bottle has to be of good quality. If you get one and it will not put out a fine spray take it back and get a different brand. It takes about 10 drops to a pint. You probibly could get by with less.You don't have to wet them down. Just a few sprays on the top of the frames and maybe one frame that is pulled out. When you do it early in the year, it could be cold so do it without spraying the larva and keeping them open very long. I use it in the spring when I do some requeening , but I normally let the bees eat the candy out of the queen cage to release the queen. Two years ago I hived 35 3 lb packages and did not loose a queen , when I let her out on a frame that I sprayed the bees. My packages were kept in a cool dark place for a day and then hived them just before dark. Read and plan what ever you do with bees. I have been doing this for over 30 years and have a friend that is 83 years old and has well over 50 years with bees behind him. We are learning all the time.We have some very great people on this list working hard to find more answers that will help us. Good Luck Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:28:47 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: ARS Y-C-1 Queens In-Reply-To: <199602101439.JAA74154@pen2.pen.k12.va.us> On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, Frederick L. Hollen wrote: > Greetings, > > Has anyone had any experience with the ARS Y-C-1 bees which > have been around for a year or so? I'm thinking of trying a > few of them -- having read some wonderful things about them -- > but was wondering how they have done for average beekeepers. > > Disposition? Productivity? Mite resistance? Swarming? > Fred I tried 15 ARS-Y-C-1 queens two years ago.I was interested in adding new genes to my stock and see what was true for the northwest.First , remember that the invironment plays role in how the bees behave. I see bees down south that work very well and produce a large crop of honey.Up in Washington where is is cooler and rainy, they stay in the hive. The temperment was good and productivity was average.I did not have a problem with mites in 94. I used apistan strips.I did not test them for the mites. Now the good news. I raised about 80 queens in the summer of 95 using the marked ARS _Y-C-1 queens as the queen mothers.I kept 30 of the best looking one plus the ones that the bees liked to take care of. I used 10 queens to start 5 frame nucs.I put 1 frame of brood and bees in each nuc. That was June10.95. I did no strips no food and no medication at all. On october 16 th I looked at all my hives and checked the nucs out. Three nucs were alive.Full of honey and bees. I did an either roll to check for Varroa and found just around 4 to 5 in the jar off of 30 bees. From reading some of the research on hygienic behavior,( Behavioral Genetics ,pg.163 Bee Genetics and Breeding by Rinderer ) it is complex and you can not say that all ARS-Y-C-1 bees have a resistance to the mites. They don't claim it to bee the answer , it is just better. It looks like Canada is doing some very good work and Sue Cobey is helping some breeders with the new World Carniolan. The bottem line is , you ask , you read and you buy with the best info you can get. Each beekeeper has there own ideas. The Best of Luck. Keeping Bees is a learning experience and something to enjoy. Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 07:03:41 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Nougat Subject: Jean-Marie's "NOUGAT" recipe Hi Bee-Liners! Bonjour Jean-Marie! What a nice surprise! Although I live in Quebec, I was born in Belgium (Anderlues). Here we speak french for 84% of the 7 millions of us and many of us dont feel very canadian... but it is another story. I love NOUGAT (my teeth dont) and I am pretty sure there would be a big market for it here. It could sell in all North America... Maybe instead of trying to start beekeeping, I should start a NOUGAT business. I can buy all the honey I want from my neigbour beekeeper at 80 canadian cents a pound. What is the wholesale price of honey in Belgium? NOUGAT is made mostly in Montelimar, France. Where did you get the recipe from? They also have it in Xixona, Spain, it is called Turron, but it is a little different. Would you also have the turron recipe? What may be difficult to find are the "ostie" sheets. The french word ostie is used for what you receive in your mouth at the communion in the church (white bread that looks like paper). It prevent the nougat to stick to your fingers. Anybody knows what it is in english? Is it "unleavened bread" as in another recipe? Do you have bees? Where do you live? Too bad Internet cannot handles the french or spanish accents correctly. I made many friends thru Internet and I met some of them when they visit Montreal. We are not very far from our listserver in Albany. Jean-Louis near Montreal (Qc) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:55:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Jurgens Subject: Re: Nougat Comments: cc: jurgensd@prime.common.net JeanLouis Adant wrote: > > Subject: Jean-Marie's "NOUGAT" recipe > > Hi Bee-Liners! Bonjour Jean-Marie! > > What a nice surprise! Although I live in Quebec, I was born in > Belgium (Anderlues). Here we speak french for 84% of the 7 millions > of us and many of us dont feel very canadian... but it is another > story. > > I love NOUGAT (my teeth dont) and I am pretty sure there would be > a big market for it here. It could sell in all North America... > Maybe instead of trying to start beekeeping, I should start a > NOUGAT business. I can buy all the honey I want from my neigbour > beekeeper at 80 canadian cents a pound. > > What is the wholesale price of honey in Belgium? NOUGAT is made > mostly in Montelimar, France. Where did you get the recipe from? > They also have it in Xixona, Spain, it is called Turron, but it is > a little different. Would you also have the turron recipe? > > What may be difficult to find are the "ostie" sheets. The french > word ostie is used for what you receive in your mouth at the > communion in the church (white bread that looks like paper). It > prevent the nougat to stick to your fingers. Anybody knows what it > is in english? Is it "unleavened bread" as in another recipe? > > Do you have bees? Where do you live? Too bad Internet cannot > handles the french or spanish accents correctly. > > I made many friends thru Internet and I met some of them when they > visit Montreal. We are not very far from our listserver in Albany. > > Jean-Louis near Montreal (Qc)Hi there. My name is Dave Jurgens and i live at Brandon Manitba Canada. We have approx. 450 colonies in yards south of this small city. Our white honey sold this year for $1.15 lb Canadian.It was a good year for us, we managed to bring in 128 45 gallon drums. Our ripe honey is sold raw and natural. see you latter. BUZZING Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 07:00:40 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Countries I only subscribed to BEE-L few weeks ago. I would be interested to know where the members are from. Up until now, I saw messages from Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Ireland, UK, USA. Where else do we have members? Can I ask the member list to the listserv? I traveled a lot in Latin America. Is there anybody from Mexico, Costa-Rica, Guatemala? Jean-Louis (Qc) P.S. I tried to send a message to Jean-Marie from Belgium at the address and it came back... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 06:50:01 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Hi Dave! Hi Dave, >My name is Dave Jurgens and i live at Brandon Manitba Canada. >We have approx. 450 colonies in yards south of this small city. >Our white honey sold this year for $1.15 lb Canadian.It was a >good year for us, we managed to bring in 128 45 gallon drums. >Our ripe honey is sold raw and natural. see you latter. I am not very familiar with the british units, but if I am right, you made around 170 lbs per colony and made around $90,000 cdn. How many lbs of honey holds a 45 gallon drum? How many persons and how many hours each working in the year? After paying all the bills, what is your profit? Can a single person handle all the tasks or do you have to hire temporary help? Do you farm fields (I dont know the name of that flower in english)? Is it clover? What do you do in the winter beside Internet? I plan to become a beekeeper to be a ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Keith A. Smith" Subject: Re: Hi Dave! Those numbers look impressive, I think there a little stretched out. My calculator shows 12.8 gallons of honey per hive. Hard to believe in the short Canadian growing season. Someone misplaced the decimal point somewhere along the line. But I've been wrong before. >Hi Dave, > >>My name is Dave Jurgens and i live at Brandon Manitba Canada. >>We have approx. 450 colonies in yards south of this small city. >>Our white honey sold this year for $1.15 lb Canadian.It was a >>good year for us, we managed to bring in 128 45 gallon drums. >>Our ripe honey is sold raw and natural. see you latter. > >I am not very familiar with the british units, but if I am right, >you made around 170 lbs per colony and made around $90,000 cdn. How >many lbs of honey holds a 45 gallon drum? How many persons and how >many hours each working in the year? After paying all the bills, >what is your profit? Can a single person handle all the tasks or do >you have to hire temporary help? Do you farm fields (I dont know >the name of that flower in english)? Is it clover? What do you do >in the winter beside Internet? I plan to become a beekeeper to be >a > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:51:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Scott A. Binkley" Subject: Re: Trapping Propolis Hi, sorry to bother you, but I have some questions about propolis, and you seem to be rather keen on the subject. All I know is that it is brown-greenish, sticky, and bees use it to fill gaps, and holes. Why would health food people be interested in it??? What benefits come from eating it?? how does it taste and lastly is it expensive to purchase (I'm not keeping bees just yet) Thanks for your time.. /sb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:54:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Scott A. Binkley" Subject: Royal Jelly Collection Hi beekeepers! I've seen many posts on collecting pollen, and propolis, but none with regards to collecting royal jelly. Can anyone explain how they do it? /sb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Jurgens Subject: Managing your bees Comments: cc: jurgensd@prime.common.net Keith A. Smith wrote: > > Those numbers look impressive, I think there a little stretched out. > My calculator shows 12.8 gallons of honey per hive. > Hard to believe in the short Canadian growing season. > Someone misplaced the decimal point somewhere along the line. > But I've been wrong before. > Hi Keith: We are very luckly that the farmer in our area grow a lot of Canola (re rape) and our bees do very well. The honey is white and smooth. With proper managament of your bees we have achived over 200lb. per colony in the past. Making sure your bees are very stong in the spring, proper feeding, medicating,and reversing of frames in the brood box, and a good year. The honey flow starts in the end of June and runs to mid Aug. The most important key is early in the spring mid April we go through every colony and clean them, move honey stores to the outside walls so the queen has room to lay. We move any eggs or brood to the bottom box and put empty frames with pollen and honey in the top box and then we feed approx. 1-2 gallons of 1 to 1 cane sugar. We found this method gets the queen laying early.We also requeen the colony if we find she is failing or just old.Also in the spring we move our colonies into the summer yards making sure the area is not over foraged by the bees. Just a note on lbs. per colony dave ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 19:57:05 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Propolis & Trapping Propolis Hello, All, I'm glad that Scott Binkley and Kelly Rosenlund have asked questions about propolis. This is one of my favorite subjects and one that I have done quite a bit of research on. Although Kelly's questions were addressed to me personally, I would like to answer to the entire group, because I believe it's information that would benefit all. I don't want to come off as the resident propolis expert, because I'm not, but it doesn't appear that there is anyone on this group that knows very much about propolis; either that or they're just not speaking up. So, I'll try to answer as many questions as I can for those of you who have them. It appears, from the people that I associate with, both here and where I live, that it's known that there exists a market for propolis, but everyone that I have talked to scratch their head and ask, "Why do they want this stuff?". Propolis is wonderful stuff! I can't sing it's praises loud enough. Four years ago I, my wife, and my son were plagued by ear, throat and sinus infections, almost constantly. We were going to the doctor and getting antibiotics almost once a quarter. And it seemed like the more we took, the more sick we got the next time. Our bodies were wearing down. Don't get me wrong, in some extreme cases antibiotics are necessary and a wonderful discovery. They have saved countless thousands of lives. But they have a dark side. Antibiotics kill ALL bacteria, both the good and the bad. In the human stomach lives a bacteria called Acidophilus. It has two jobs, to help digest food and to keep a fungus that grows in our stomach (also naturally there) in check and in the stomach. The fungus is called Candida Albicans. When a person takes antibiotics, it kills the Acidophilus and as a result the Candida is allowed to grow, unchecked. When this happens, it escapes the confines of the stomach and enters the blood stream, where it travels to all parts of the body. It causes havoc mostly with the vital organs and can cause all sorts of symptoms that can look like other diseases. This condition is known as Candidiasis. It often goes undiagnosed. Many times the doctors can not figure out why a person is sick. Another side-effect of taking antibiotics is that the body will build up an immunity to the antibiotics and each successive round is less effective. The reason I have gone into all this lengthy explanation is that we were killing ourselves and, initially didn't know it. When we found out the above information we were appalled, but didn't know what to do. We were continuing to have the infections and knew of no other way to treat them. Then one day a friend told us about propolis. Most beekeepers know what the stuff is and many curse it. It's a pain to have to deal with all that sticky stuff on everything, but not only does propolis seal holes and cracks, it's a natural germicide. You experts tell me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the inside of a bee hive is one of the most sterile places on the earth (more sterile than an operating room). Propolis is what makes it that way. When humans ingest propolis it works like a natural antibiotic, WITHOUT THE SIDE-EFFECTS. It is selective in what it gets rid of. And on top of that it boosts the human bodies' immune system to fight off diseases before you get them. After taking propolis for one year, our whole family was infection free and have been ever since. So, you see why I want to tell people about this stuff and why I have done the research that I have done. In upcoming posts, I will talk about trapping propolis, preparing it for use, and the actual use of it. And for those of you who have no bees and want the propolis, you can purchase already prepared tinctures and extracts of propolis from some health-food stores. I would recommend that you stay away from any that contain alcohol. They taste bad and usually stain the teeth brown. Twin Laboratories, Inc. prepares the best extract that I have found. It has no alcohol and has been blended with other herbs for better assimilation. I purchase it from a health-food store, here in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex, called Whole Foods, for $16/1 fl. oz. bottle with dropper. This sounds like a lot, but the recommended dosage, on the bottle, is only ten drops a day. So, it lasts a long time. Well, tally-ho. I must go. Sorry for the length of the post. Hopefully the next ones will not be that long, but I needed to get all of that background out of the way. Thanks for your indulgence. Regards, Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:42:50 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Dave's crop Dave's excellent honey crop can also be explained by the fact that even if the season is short in Manitoba, in the summer, the days are much longer than in the south. Jean-Louis (Qc) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 22:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson" Subject: New Member Greeting to everyone: I have recently joined this news group and am looking forward to the posts, and hearing from other bee enthusiasts. I currently have two hives which I set up last May. Last fall was my first harvest, and although it wasn't real productive, it was very satisfying and enjoyable. I managed to harvest just over two gallons of honey, and still left a full, full-size super on each hive for the winter. Since this is my first season with established hives, I am looking for any and all advise on getting started up again for the season. I have three medium supers that have already been drawn out from last year. I am considering trying one hive with comb honey and the other with extracted honey. Suggestions? I also built my own extractor for about $50 and have the plans for anyone interested. Later! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:24:20 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Allister C. Guy" Subject: Re: Nougat In-Reply-To: <9602100703.09X4M00@relais.com> In message <9602100703.09X4M00@relais.com>, JeanLouis Adant writes >Subject: Jean-Marie's "NOUGAT" recipe > >Hi Bee-Liners! Bonjour Jean-Marie! > >What a nice surprise! Although I live in Quebec, I was born in >Belgium (Anderlues). Here we speak french for 84% of the 7 millions >of us and many of us dont feel very canadian... but it is another >story. > >I love NOUGAT (my teeth dont) and I am pretty sure there would be >a big market for it here. It could sell in all North America... >Maybe instead of trying to start beekeeping, I should start a >NOUGAT business. I can buy all the honey I want from my neigbour >beekeeper at 80 canadian cents a pound. > >What is the wholesale price of honey in Belgium? NOUGAT is made >mostly in Montelimar, France. Where did you get the recipe from? >They also have it in Xixona, Spain, it is called Turron, but it is >a little different. Would you also have the turron recipe? > >What may be difficult to find are the "ostie" sheets. The french >word ostie is used for what you receive in your mouth at the >communion in the church (white bread that looks like paper). It >prevent the nougat to stick to your fingers. Anybody knows what it >is in english? Is it "unleavened bread" as in another recipe? > >Do you have bees? Where do you live? Too bad Internet cannot >handles the french or spanish accents correctly. > >I made many friends thru Internet and I met some of them when they >visit Montreal. We are not very far from our listserver in Albany. > >Jean-Louis near Montreal (Qc) In Scotland we use Rice paper to keep fingers sticky-free. -- Allister C. Guy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:08:50 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Countries On Sun, 11 Feb 1996 07:00:40 -0600, JeanLouis Adant wrote: >I only subscribed to BEE-L few weeks ago. I would be interested to >know where the members are from. Up until now, I saw messages from >Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Ireland, UK, USA. Where else do we have >members? Can I ask the member list to the listserv? Dear Jean-Luis, Accept cordials greetings from the Czech Republic Vladimir Ptacek ---------------------------------------------------------------- Fac. Sci., Dpt. Anim. Physiol. E.mail: ptacek@sci.muni.cz Masaryk University phone: .42/5/41129 562 611 37 Brno, Czech Republic fax: .42/5/41211 214 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Charles Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Re: New Member Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson wrote: > > Greeting to everyone: > I have recently joined this news group and am looking forward to the > posts, and hearing from other bee enthusiasts. > I also built my own extractor for about $50 and have the plans for > anyone interested. > Later! Welcome Sean, I would be interested in you plans for the extractor. Rick Grubbs digital@avana.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:34:39 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Excuse me ... Friends, Excuse my mistake in sending to you all the private greeting addressed to J.L.Adant. Sorry, Vladimir Ptacek ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:21:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: CODE Subject: question about bee keeping A friend of mine is thinking about getting into bee keeping and/or bee hive making, as he is an established woodworker. About this I have a few questions that we would greatly appreciate if anyone could answer. 1/ is there a commercial beehive maker in Canada/Ontario? 2/ are there any beekeepers in the area of central Ontario (Peterborough, Toronto, Oshawa areas) 3/ does anyone know the average weight or amount of honey that can be harvested from a bee colony in a single season, (we realize that this figure is highly variable) 4/ does anyone know the dimensions or could tell us where we could find some schematics of commercial bee hives? 5/ does anyone know of any diseases or predators of bee colonies that is or may be a problem to bees in central Ontario? If none or only some of these questions are answerable, could someone please suggest the name of someone we could contact in Ontario for this kind of information. Any help is greatly appreciated. Post to this group, or preferrably, email directly to: jlichter@trentu.ca Cheers! Jason Lichter Trentomology jlichter@trentu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:50:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson" Subject: Re: question about bee keeping At 09:21 AM 2/12/96 -0400, you wrote: > 4/ does anyone know the dimensions or could tell us where we > could find some schematics of commercial bee hives? >Jason Lichter I have a set of plans for a complete bee-hive, brood chamber, medium supers, jigs, entrance reducers, bottom board, telescoping cover, inner cover, etc. If you are looking to build hives commercially, you can get the plans from: Cumberland General Store, INC Route 3, Box 81 Crossville, TN 38555 You can also order by phone: 1-800-334-4640 - Ask for Plans P-4 "Build You Own Beehive". Sean robinsons@skn.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:34:52 -0800 Reply-To: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Conrad A. Berube" Subject: Propolis Propoganda ;-) Comments: To: Bkeeper1@WHY.NET it's my understanding that the inside of a bee hive is >one of the most sterile places on the earth (more sterile than >an operating room). As far as a beehive being more sterile than an operating room-- any beekeeper who has had experience with brood diseases such as chalkbrood, foulbrood, nosema, etc will tell you that it just ain't so-- the antibiotic properties of propolis, wax and honey are what make the place livable at all ;-). Bee well, - Conrad Berube " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT " ` 1326 Franklin Terrace _- -_`-_|'\ /` Victoria, B.C. _/ / / -' `~()() V8S 1C7 \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (604)480-0223; fax (604)656-8922 / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '` ^ ^ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:24:04 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Propolis Propaganda ;-) Hi all ! Hi Conrad ! you wrote ... > As far as a beehive being more sterile than an operating room-- > any beekeeper who has had experience with brood diseases such as > chalkbrood, foulbrood, nosema, etc will tell you that it just > ain't so-- the antibiotic properties of propolis, wax and honey > are what make the place livable at all ;-). You're right : these *few* diseases (and I don't know what is *etc*?) are resistant to the propolis and bees antibiotics but there are *few*! We cannot say this for other animals and for the man ! But these diseases are generally the fact of the beekeeper management or the lack of vitality after some inbred selection (carnica=nosema?). It is amazing to note that 2 of these resistant diseases are excluded one by the second : it is actually demonstrated that the chalkbrood disease inhibit the development of the foulbrood : the colonies sensible to chalkbrood don't get the foulbrood while a punctual infection. In Belgium, foulbrood is rare with our european brown bee : it is sensible to chalkbrood. The only last few infections to foulbrood were find to some Buckfast bees : resistant to chalkbrood ! Cheers. Jean-Marie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:51:02 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Royal Jelly Collection In-Reply-To: <199602111654.LAA03223@caracas.terraport.net> On Sun, 11 Feb 1996, Scott A. Binkley wrote: > I've seen many posts on collecting pollen, and propolis, but none with > regards to > collecting royal jelly. > > Can anyone explain how they do it? The only realistic method I personally know of uses a tool like a little tiny vacuum cleaner to suck the stuff out of the cells. _Very_ labour intensive, which is probably why so much comes from China where labour is cheap. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:29:05 +1259 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David McMillan Subject: New Member -Reply Sean welcome Could you please send me a copy of your extractor design. Sean could you please also include your Email address with your messages so this does not have to go to all members of the group. Many thanks David McMillan MAF Private Bag 50034 Mosgiel New Zealand Email: McMillan@invermay.mqm.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:30:07 +1259 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David McMillan Subject: New Member -Reply Sean welcome Could you please send me a copy of your extractor design. Sean could you please also include your E-mail address with your messages so this does not have to go to all members of the group. Many thanks David McMillan MAF Private Bag 50034 Mosgiel New Zealand E-mail: McMillan@invermay.mqm.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:31:23 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Honey treats In-Reply-To: <96020912515422@quick.cc.fundp.ac.be> Sue and I have attempted to clarify some unclear bits -- the rest is probably self explanatory. On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Jean-Marie Van Dyck wrote: > The main compound I know with these two is named "nougat" (I don't > know the english term. We had had a recipe in the last "La Belgique > Apicole" issue : entitled: - Nougat de Carthage - In UK English at least, it's still nougat. > ingredients : 1 kg honey, 4 eggs, 1 kg of almonds > > I'm not able to translate this in correct english (too difficult terms > for me) See the process in french, sorry, translating isn't warranty ! > > Les amandes doivent e^tre bien se`ches au pre'alable, soit a` > l'e'tuve, soit au four doux, afin qu'elles ne renferment plus > d'humidite'. => First, well dry the almonds, either in a drying-room, > either in an oven (mild!). They must be very dry. Maybe toasted? (Hm -- the ASCII character set isn't very friendly to French!) > Cuire le miel au petit casse', en ayant soin de bien brasser pour > qu'il ne s'attache pas. => (+-) cook the honey at the "petit-casse'" > state. Stir continuously to avoid the attachment?. 'Petit-casse' translates as 'small crack' in UK English recipes, describing the way boiled sugar behaves when cooled. In this case, if a thread of the hot syrup is poured into cold water, the resulting cooled thread will snap if you try to bend it. If you have a sugar thermometer, this stage is reached when the syrup has reached 138-C or 280-F. Stir continuously to avoid the syrup sticking. > Fouetter les blancs d'oeufs en neige et les me'langer au miel. => > Beat? the white of the eggs in snow ?? and put them in the honey with > stirring. > > Apre`s cette addition, mode'rer le feu et remuer constamment avec une > cuiller en bois pour e'viter l'e'bullition. = Diminish the heating > while stirring with a wood spoon to avoid boilling ? Beat or whisk the egg whites until they form stiff peaks (like for meringues), then mix into the honey, then reduce the heat. _However_ we also think that may not be quite right. We think that the heat should _first_ be reduced to below boiling and _then_ the eggs should be mixed in. > Laisser sur le feu jusqu'a` ce que le miel, que les blancs d'oeufs > auront mouille', ait repris la cuisson au casse'. = Let on the fire? > till the honey return to the "petit-casse'" state. Increase the heat and return to boiling until the 'small crack' stage is reached again. > Cette cuisson obtenue, me^ler a` cette pa^te les amandes douces > e'monde'es et bien se'che'es d'avance. => Put the well dry almonds > while stiring. > > Dresser sur des oublies ou pains d'hostie, de l'e'paisseur ordinaire > (+-2 cm) et couper le nougat en bandes avant qu'il ne soit tout a` > fait froid. = Put on some host bread? at the common thickness (+-2 cm) > and cut in bands before total chill? We think that 'host bread' is 'rice paper'. This may also be the material from which sacrement wafers are made. If that still needs further translation, rice paper realy is paper made from rice and has a texture just a little like expanded polystyrene, however it's edible and not unpleasant. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:40:04 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re : Attractive cmpds. In-Reply-To: <96021218240380@quick.cc.fundp.ac.be> I am doing some toxicity experiments and I am trying to get caged workers to take down a substance (in sugar syrup) that is a demonstrated feeding deterrent. Can any one direct me to a study that tests the attractiveness of different substances to workers ? Adony Melathopoulos Simon Fraser University Burnaby, British Columbia CANADA melathop@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:29:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Jurgens Subject: Re: Managing Bees Dave Jurgens wrote: > > richard albert wrote: > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > Yesterday you mentioned that in mid-April you "go through every colony and > > clean them, move honey stores to the outside walls...and move any eggs or > > brood to the bottom box and put empty frames with pollen and honey in the > > top box." > > > > Could you please tell me how you avoid chilling the brood. I live in > > Southern New Brunswick and want to get an early start. Yet, I thought > > mid-April was still too cold to open the hive. > > > > Also, how do you feed the bees. With a tray feeder? > > > > Any info. will be a great help. > > > > Thanks > > > > Richard Albert > > alberrij@nbed.nb.ca > > Hi Richard > This is only part of the operation that we perform early in the sring we > pick a nice day +10 and up temp wise.We move the brood frames and eggs > to a new box ,with one frame of honey one each side along with one frame > of pollen.This box in on a cart and put so the sun can keep it warm. You > must make sure the outside temp.is within reason before you open the > colony.When we are done our inspection and the boxs are put together we > also apply a pattie along with medication on the top frame. Then we put > on a 2 gallon tray feeder, one gallon full per each side of cane sugar > suyrp, mixed 1 to 1 ratio.Over the years we have tried many different > ways to inhance queen laying early in the spring and this method by far > have worked the best. This is a lot of work but the crop at the end of > year pays for this extra labour. We run 450 colonies, with only 3 family > members helping out all year. Last year we averaged (including nucs) > 176lbs. per colony. > > ps. I will work on a spring task list that we perform and e-mail it to > you and you let me know what you think of could improve on. > > Thanks Dvae ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:08:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Acarapis woodi and Varroa and Virus Heiio People, I was in my home bee yard today. It was full of sun and about 60 F. I found another 9 dead colonys. I noticed that the conditions in the hives were different. All had honey 40 to 60 lbs each. Some had split clusters. I went in the house and started to look up what I could find in Honey Bee Pathology 1991 Bailey and Ball. I know by now we must have more information on what virus are being carried by the mites. I would like to know if there any papers that I could get and read. This mite problem is not a lone wolf. Since checking out Bailey and Balls book , I found one out of 16 viruses that followed one hive almost every step of the way. I will see if I can get it tied down and send some samples over to U of Wa to be checked. On the plus side , my other bees are doing great. I have brood and larva and eggs. Thank You Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: stan sandler Subject: Re: FW: Hearing in bees >I forward to the list the following response from William F. Towne who has >researched the roll of sound in honeybee communication. > >Robert Hawkes I thank you heartily Robert for soliciting a response from Mr. Towne. Even in my rather out of the way province (Prince Edward Island) I had no trouble finding his article since it was in such a popular journal (scientific american). I may have considerably more difficulty finding the "bee world" article, since neither the public or university libraries here subscribe to that journal, but I will obtain it somehow. > >We now know that bees can detect sounds. They receive airborne sounds with >their antennae and substrate-borne vibrations with the subgenual organs in >their legs. Queen piping is detected as comb vibrations with the >subgenual organs. The antennal receptors are used in detecting the sounds >produced by dancing bees and possibly for other puropses as well. A recent >review of these things, especially airborne sound reception, is: > >Dreller, C., and W.H. Kirchner (1995) The sense of hearing in honey bees. >Bee World 76(1): 6-17. > >See also the references therein. Another review is: > >Kirchner, W.H., and W.F. Towne (1994) The sensory basis of the honey >bee's dance language. Scientific American 270(6): 52-59. It seems to me that there might be some practical applications of this for the commercial beekeeper. I wonder how long the bee's response to vibration of the comb lasts: "At the same time the followers emit sounds that vibrate the comb. The forager stops her dance when she receives these signals and delivers samples of the food she has collected..." (from the article in scientific american). It would be interesting to see the response to touching various tuning forks which vibrate at those low frequencies which the bees can detect AND DISCRIMINATE to the comb while the beekeeper is holding it. Occasionally the bees can be running on the combs when you are looking for a queen and it makes it a little more difficult. Smoke makes it worse. If just giving them a little "buzz" settled them down it might be a useful tool. As well, I often leave my truck idling while I'm loading and unloading hives because the vibration of the engine has such a calming effect on the bees, and I usually move my hives with the entrances wide open. If you knew exactly what the most calming frequency was, perhaps just a small vibrator would do the same, and save fuel. I began my question about hearing in bees by noting, tongue in cheek, that I played some pretty loud music sometimes when working in the beeyards. And then I titled it: "Beedances to what music?". Well, it turned out that sound seems to actually be very important to beedances, and I later found this statement by C.G.Butler in my old copy of Hive and Honeybee: "Those workers that happen to be near a queen when she pipes "freeze", stopping whatever they are doing for a few seconds and remaining still. Such behaviour can also be induced by a vibrating tuning fork applied to the glass of an observation hive or EVEN BY LOUD SINGING BY A HUMAN BEING." (the capitals are mine) So the next time the bees are running all over the combs, WHISTLE WHILE YOU WORK! Stan Sandler, Milk and Honey Farm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:42:56 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: wintering on plastic frames On feb 7, Kerry Clark wrote: > One thing the pannel could not comment on: is there a difference in bees > winter success on plastic vs wax foundation (everyone on the panel > wintered their bees in the warm south). There was a comment about > plastic not conducting heat as well as wax (meant as a criticism of > plastic, though it seems it should be an advantage) but no one had a > strong opinion. What has been your experience, Allen, Jean-Pierre? The suitability of plastic frames for wintering is an issue that has been raised by some beekeepers (non-users). Personnally I have not really tested them yet. I have seen pictures though of beautiful strong colonies, all on plastic, in a Alberta wintering yard with plenty of snow surrounding them. Plastic frames are a new thing in my area. I was the first to introduce them in Quebec two years ago. So nobody really has a good experience with them. Last year I had only a few plactic frames scattered in the brood chambers of my wintered colonies. This winter most of the 110 colonies that were wintered outdoors have only plastic frames in their second super. Next year probably quite a few colonies will winter outdoors completely on plastic. So fairly soon, I should be able to comment on the suitability of plastic frames for wintering. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@praline.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:00:43 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Extractor >>I also built my own extractor for about $50 and have the plans >>for anyone interested. >Welcome Sean, I would be interested in you plans for the >extractor. Sorry to use the list... Could you send me the extractor plans. Thank you. Jean-Louis Adant, Montrel E-Mail: jean-louis.adant@relais.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:32:01 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: nokrian rivka Subject: Post Doctoral Research Comments: cc: polpal-l Hello, I would like to mail this message again. Please if anyone might know of any available position, I would appreciate receiving the info. Thanks, Rivka I'm a Ph.D. student in the field of Pollination Ecology at Tel Aviv University in ISRAEL. My current research is on melon (Cucumis melo) pollination under greenhouse conditions, under the supervision of Prof. Dan Eisikowitch. The research fields are located in the Arava valley, at the south of Israel, in a desert area. I have been working on various issues concerning pollination problems inside the greenhouses, studying both hive functioning and plants reactions to environmental constraints. Some of the issues I was working on recently deal with the question of irrigation and it's effect on nectar secretion and thereby on pollinator activity. One other aspect of greenhouse pollination is the question whether there is enough reward produced, to support the hive placed next to the greenhouse. Some of the results and conclusions in my research have already been adopted by the farmers and are presently practiced by them. My fields of interest are wide and include Pollination Ecology, Vegetation Dynamics as well as Plant Systematics and Evolution. I could be available for work as of January 1997. Languages: I speak, read and write English (fluently) and Spanish (pretty well). I also read and speak a little Italian and French. Of course I speak, read and write Hebrew (mother tongue). Referees: Prof. Dan Eisikowitch / Department of Botany / Tel Aviv University / Ramat Aviv / 69978 Tel Aviv / ISRAEL At the moment on Sabbatical leave at: Department of Horticulture University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602, USA Prof. C.C. Heyn / Department of Evolution, Systematics and Ecology Hebrew University / Givat Ram / 91904 Jerusalem / ISRAEL Prof. Amots Dafni / Institute of Evolution / Haifa University Haifa / ISRAEL E-mail: rabi306@haifauvm.bitnet.ac.il Please forward any information or suggestions to: Rivka Nokrian Department of Botany George S. Wise Faculty of Life Sciences Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv 69978 Tel Aviv ISRAEL E-mail: rebeca@post.tau.ac.il Thank you all, Rivka ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:49:17 PST Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: FW: Re : Attractive cmpds. ---------------Original Message--------------- I am doing some toxicity experiments and I am trying to get caged workers to take down a substance (in sugar syrup) that is a demonstrated feeding deterrent. Can any one direct me to a study that tests the attractiveness of different substances to workers ? Adony Melathopoulos Simon Fraser University Burnaby, British Columbia CANADA melathop@sfu.ca The most attractive substances to worker bees must be honey or thick sugar syrup. Bees are reluctant to take down food if the external temperatures are low; eg. February in BC I would think, or if they are queenless. (Or if given a feeding deterrent!) If toxicity tests are involved may be this is additional evidence that bees are not stupid! And caged too! Poor bees. Let's have some justification please. Glyn Davies, Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:22:50 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Dualhdr Hello Bee-Liners, If sometimes you have to answer personal mail to the list because you dont have the address of the person you are answering to, you could send to LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu the following text: SET BEE-L DUALHDR you will have a header giving you the name and the internet address of each sender to Bee-L. Jean-Louis Adant (Qc) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:21:16 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: F Hogenboom Subject: propolis in varnish Hi, Antonio Stradivarius (1640-1737) was an Italian violinmaker. Today his string- instruments are desired (and very expensive), because of their technical perfection and magnificant tone. After Stradivarius many violinmakers have tried to copy his instruments, which appeared to be a difficult task. Neither the choice of the wood, nor the size of the different parts of the instruments are the problem. These are well known by today craftsmen. Some authors of violin-books suggest that it is the composition of the varnish used by Stradivarius and other violinmakers of his time (especially in Cremona, Italia) to be the sound-improving element. How they prepared the surface-coating is unknown, maybe their recipts have been lost. Nowadays analysis show propolis as a component. Violinmakers have tried to compose the same varnish as Stradivarius c.s. did, but have not been successfull. Therefore it is still unknown whether the varnish itself is (for a part) responsible for the briliant "Stradivarius" tone. However I don't believe strongly in its acoustical abilities I like to put some questions about this "sticky stuff" 1. Do you think it is possible to detect propolis in varnish. (by a pollen image?) 2. Is there something written in Bee-books or -articles about the use of propolis in surface-coatings for music-instruments, furniture etc. Further information will sound well Best regards Francois e-mail F.Hogenboom.Pharm@MED.VU.NL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:16:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: Re: FW: Hearing in bees In-Reply-To: <199602130325.XAA20548@bud.peinet.pe.ca> from "stan sandler" at Feb 12, 96 11:25:46 pm While discussing hearing in bees let me remind everyone of the small ultrasonic devices marketed about 10 years ago under the name "Bee Calm". Supposedly you could turn it on and calm the meanest bees. We did a small replicated trial of the device and found it to be of no value. I bring this up to keep us from reinventing that particular wheel. As to truck vibrations when loading bees, I think they are beneficial too, but the beneficial frequencies need to be measured somehow. Bill Lord -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:48:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James Mosvick Subject: Re: propolis in varnish Beeswax in Varnish, wrote Francois e-mail F.Hogenboom.Pharm@MED.VU.NL My ancestors were wood and metal workers. For Inlay Varnish they used: Ozokerite 17 parts Bees Wax 3 parts Turpentine Oil 15 parts Melt the first two and stir in the turpentine oil. This varnish is applied like a polish and imparts to the wood a dark natural color and a dull luster. Engraving surfaces had to be covered with a dark-colored coating and soft enough to allow the finest lines to be drawn with a needle and easy to remove when finished with oil or turpentine. Using the following formula: Bees Wax 50 parts Syrian Asphalt 20 parts Mastic 25 parts Hope this helps in your quest! Spider@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:48:50 -0800 Reply-To: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Conrad A. Berube" Subject: Re: Propolis Propoganda ;-) Comments: To: Bkeeper1@why.net Howdy Mike, >What I wrote is not propaganda, its the truth. And for me to say "propolis >is good for you" is not misleading. I'm not quite sure what I said to >warrant such a rebuttle as what you wrote me. Maybe I didn't say everything >just right, but I'm "common-folk"; not a doctor or scientist. Compadre, my apologies if you took offence at anything I said-- thought the smiley next to propoganda in the subject line would indicate that I was using the term as much because it sounded good to my humble ear ;-) as to indicate that your enthusiasm for propolis might deserve to be toned down a notch or two. And, hey, scientists and doctors are just common folks who've been fortunate enough to spend time studying something they like at some university happy to take their dough ;-) (Doctors and scientists please flame me directly ;-) '\ /` ()() \/\ Conrad Berube ____ /`\ \\ ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT / ; ; /` `\/'\\ _____________ 1326 Franklin Terrace ` /` `' \`-===========/~~\ Victoria, B.C. V8S 1C7 \ \ -^\ /\____/^^^~> (604)480-0223; fax: (604)656-8922 |/ '\ '\~~~~~~~~ email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '\ '\ \__\__ `` `` ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:19:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: wintering on plastic frames In-Reply-To: <199602122242.WAA14127@scuzzy.praline.net> In 1988 I purchased 125 col. with 25% plastic frames in the brood nest. Since then I have switched entirly to these frames. We now have quite a few brood boxes with only plastic and have had no problems with wintering because of them. I suggest tring 10 frames to the box even if you don't like that with wooden frames, the perfect spacing allows easy manipulation even with 10 frames. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:29:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Acarapis woodi and Varroa and Virus In-Reply-To: On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > Heiio People, I was in my home bee yard today. It was full of sun and > about 60 F. I found another 9 dead colonys. I noticed that the > conditions in the hives were different. All had honey 40 to 60 lbs each. > Some had split clusters. I went in the house and started to look up what > I could find in Honey Bee Pathology 1991 Bailey and Ball. I know by > now we must have more information on what virus are being carried by the > mites. I would like to know if there any papers that I could get and > read. This mite problem is not a lone wolf. Since checking out Bailey and > Balls book , I found one out of 16 viruses that followed one hive almost > every step of the way. I will see if I can get it tied down and send > some samples over to U of Wa to be checked. Since there are no controls for virus we are probably best off concentrating on controling the mites. The only bee lab in the world that can test for all virus is in England. The Beltsville lab in Maryland can test for some and is expanding their capibilities. You may be able to send samples there. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:39:34 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS Subject: Re: propolis in varnish > 2. Is there something written in Bee-books or -articles about the use of > propolis in surface-coatings for music-instruments, furniture etc. > Maybe I can contribute something to this thread. In 1988 Mr B.Koenig from Germany published an extended abstract of his thesis about propolis in the following journal: - B.Koenig, J.Dustmann: Baumharze, Bienen und antivirale Chemotherapie. (-> Tree resins, bees and antiviral chemotherapy) In: Naturwissenschaftliche Rundschau Vol 41, issue 2, 1988 In this article reference is made to the following book which apparently treats the use of propolis in musical instruments - E.Knopf: Der Cremoneser Lack. Verlag Das Musikinstrument, Frankfurt/Main 1= 979 The book is written in the German language. However, the articel was translated into English sometimes later. Sorry I don't recall when and where. If you write to the co-author I am sure he can help you further. His address is: - Prof: J.Dustmann Landesinstitut fuer Bienenforschung Wehlstr. 4a D-3100 Celle Germany Hope this will be of some help. Best regards Hans CHNK=01=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00fntb=00=00=00=00=00=00=02=FD=00=00=00= =07font=00=00=00=00=00=00=02=BF=00=00=00 just=00=00=00=00=00=00=02=BA=00=00=00=02marg=00=00=00=00=00=00=02=A8=00=00= =00=10prec=00=00=00=00=00=00=024=00=00=00xruns=00=00=00=00=00=00=02=CB=00=00= =00=08stat=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=BF =00=00=00(sttb=00=00=00=00=00=00=02=95=00=00=00$text=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=CB= =00=00=01Jvers=00=00=00=00=00=00=03=14=00=00=00=04=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00(=00=03 =02-=01=A4=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=D9=00=00= =00=D9=00=00=00=00____________________________________________ ________ Hans-Ulrich THOMAS. Beekeeper & collector of books about: - bees and beekeeping - ants (yes these small little buggers!) - nature printing e-mail: hthomas@solid.phys.ethz.ch CompuServe: 100045,2556 =46ax: +41 1 633 10 77 ____________________________________________________=00=00=00=03=00=00=00H= =00H=00=00=00=00=032=028=9D=D9=9D=DB=03> =02F=03G=05{=03=FD=00=02=00=00=00H=00H=00=00=00=00=032=028=00=01=00=00=00d= =00=00=00=01=00=03=03=03=00=9D=00=01'=0F=00=01=00=01=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00h=08=00=19=01=EA=00=00=00=00=10=00=00=00=00=00 =00=00=00=00=00=01=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00H=00=00= =00H=00=00=00H=00=00=00H=00=00=9D=9C=00=00=00=03=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=06G eneva=00=00=00=00=01=01K=9D=9D=00=00=00=10=00=0C=00=04=00=00=00=0C=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=01=00=10=00=0C=9D=9D=00=00=00=0C=00=00=00=00=00=00=01 =C4=00 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson" Subject: Extractor Plans I have had a tremendous amount of requests for these plans and I have sent out several copies. I have sent some via email attached file, but the resolution doesn't seem to be holding up. I have also faxed several copies around the US and Canada. It's getting expensive folks. For those who have not received a copy, but still want them, I enclose the source here in the US. You can order a copy from: 1-800-334-4640 Ask for Extractor Plans No. 1326 Bee Hive Plans No. 1324 This is from a company in Crossville, TN. I am not selling these plans. Hope this will help out some individuals. The plans are well worth the investment. I built an extractor using only newly purchased supplies, and the total cost was under $50. Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA It's a great place to BEE! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 19:19:28 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: wintering on plastic frames ---------------Original Message--------------- On feb 7, Kerry Clark wrote: > One thing the pannel could not comment on: is there a difference in bees > winter success on plastic vs wax foundation (everyone on the panel > wintered their bees in the warm south). There was a comment about > plastic not conducting heat as well as wax (meant as a criticism of > plastic, though it seems it should be an advantage) but no one had a > strong opinion. What has been your experience, Allen, Jean-Pierre? >The suitability of plastic frames for wintering is an issue that has >been raised by some beekeepers (non-users). Personnally I have not >really tested them yet. I have seen pictures though of beautiful strong >colonies, all on plastic, in a Alberta wintering yard with plenty of >snow surrounding them. Plastic frames are a new thing in my area. I was >the first to introduce them in Quebec two years ago. So nobody really >has a good experience with them. I thought I might take the opportunity to respond to the question, as the pictures John-Pierre spoke of where probably of my hives. We currently have 1300 colonies with 30% pierco plastic frames in the brood nests. We have been using them in the brood nests for three years, with no noticable difference in wintering ability. As the plastic frame is "open", there is no cold sink areas. As Kerry mentioned, at the panel discussion in Portland, the question of wintering was raised, also the question of coloring the plastic was spoken of, with the understanding that it may be helpful in wintering. Pierco is offering coloring, but I don't believe there is a need for it. Tim Townsend TPLR Honey Farms RR1 Stony Plain AB TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:52:16 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andreas Kasenides Subject: Re: Extractor Plans In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 13 Feb 96 20:05:46 EST.) <199602140105.UAA02167@london2.skn.net> Are we talking about a honey extractor here? If so, then how about a regular phone number (not 800) for your friends overseas. I have been trying ti find such plans for a while. Thanks Andreas Kasenides Nicosia, Cyprus ----------------------------------------------------- I have had a tremendous amount of requests for these plans and I have sent out several copies. I have sent some via email attached file, but the resolution doesn't seem to be holding up. I have also faxed several copies around the US and Canada. It's getting expensive folks. For those who have not received a copy, but still want them, I enclose the source here in the US. You can order a copy from: 1-800-334-4640 Ask for Extractor Plans No. 1326 Bee Hive Plans No. 1324 This is from a company in Crossville, TN. I am not selling these plans. Hope this will help out some individuals. The plans are well worth the investment. I built an extractor using only newly purchased supplies, and the total cost was under $50. Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA It's a great place to BEE! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 03:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: ttownse@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: wintering on plastic frames Having been reading the BEE-L postings for a little while, and finding the notes interesting, I haven't felt compelled to contribute my two cents worth, until I read this article. >The suitability of plastic frames for wintering is an issue that has >been raised by some beekeepers (non-users). Personnally I have not >really tested them yet. I have seen pictures though of beautiful strong >colonies, all on plastic, in a Alberta wintering yard with plenty of >snow surrounding them. Plastic frames are a new thing in my area. I was >the first to introduce them in Quebec two years ago. So nobody really >has a good experience with them. I thought I might take the opportunity to respond to the question, as the pictures John-Pierre spoke of where probably of my hives. We currently have 1300 colonies wintered outdoors in three standard supers with approx. 30% pierco plastic frames in the brood nests. We have been using them in the brood nests for three years, with no noticable difference in wintering ability. As the plastic frame is "open", there is no cold sink areas. As Kerry mentioned, at the panel discussion in Portland, the question of wintering was raised, also the question of coloring the plastic was spoken of, with the understanding that it may be helpful in wintering. Pierco is offering coloring, but I am not sure on what differences it would make. If possible I will be more than happy to answer any question I can on Pierco. Tim Townsend TPLR Honey Farms RR1 Stony Plain AB TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:53:07 PST Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Toxicity Tests Anxious Bee_liners I have been in communication with Adony Melathopoulos and he has assured me that his toxicity tests with a naturally occurring compound are directed at the parasites and pathogens of bees and that the caging system temporarily isolates bees to ensure that entire colonies come to no harm while dosages are worked out. Glyn Davies, Devon. UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:13:42 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "rbessin@ca.uky.edu" Subject: Sources for Buckfast Bees I am looking for a short list of sources for packages of buckfact bees in the US for a collegue. Any suggestions? Ric Bessin Extension Entomologist Department of Entomology University of Kentucky Lexington, KY 40546-0091 (606) 257-7456 FAX (606) 323-1120 rbessin@ca.uky.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:09:16 CST6CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Rodney L. Holloway" Organization: Ag. and Environmental Safety Subject: Re: Sources for Buckfast Bees > I am looking for a short list of sources for packages of buckfact > bees in the US for a collegue. Any suggestions? > > Ric Bessin R Weaver Apiaries Rt. 1 Box 260 Navasota, Tx 77868 (409)825-2333 B. Weaver Apiaries Rt. 1 Box 256 Navasota, Tx 77868 (409)825-7312 Both of these list Buckfast in their '96 sales matrial. Rodney Holloway ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:19:04 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Matthew Ter Molen Subject: Hives Permanently in an Orchard and Spraying I wanted to ask members of the list a question. I have my 10 hives placed on a farm where there is an apple orchard. The hives are about 50 yards from the nearest trees. I have never had problems with spraying in the past because the owners didn't spray. However, this spring (I live outside of Chicago, Illinois) they would like to spray. My Question: 1) Are there any sprays that can be used in this close proximity to hives? 2) Is is just a matter of when they apply the spray? (at night, after petal drop?) The orchard owners are very concientious about the bees and have offered to just not spray, but I was hoping that there was some alternative to not spraying. Finally, is there and IPM approach that I could recommend to the owners. Thanks, in advance for your counsel. Sinerely, Matt Ter Molen Evanston, Illinois matthew_ter_molen@development.uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:21:14 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Extension Beekeeping Course Dear B.liners: This is an announcemet for an extension course: BEEKEEPING BEYOND 2000 COURSE This course will be offered from March 13 to 14, 1996 at the Holiday Inn, Guelph, Ontario, Canada. The Beekeeping Beyond 2000 Course will cover beekeeping managements: present and future, economics of beekeeping under the changes in the world market such as NAFTA and GATT, mechanization of beekeeping, and Africanization of bees. In addition, this course will focus on the latest information about parasitic mites, integrated approach to control diseases and pests, utilization of genetics for developing better bees, seasonal management and pollination demands. The format of this course is not a student- teacher form but it is an interactive round table discussion with expertise in different beekeeping fields. This course will feature: - Dr. Eric Mussen of University of California, Davis - Mr. Gary Hergert, Agriculture Canada, - Dr. Tibor Szabo of Agriculture Canada - Dr. Cynthia Scott-Dupree of University of Guelph - Mr. Barry Davies of Ontario Bee Breeders' Association - Mr. Doug McRory of Ontario Ministry of Agriculture - Dr. Medhat Nasr of Ontario Beekeepers' Association. - One more guest Speaker TBA. For Registration or Information, please contact: Pat Westlake Ontario Beekeepers' Association Bayfield, Ontario CANADA NOM 1GO Tel: (519)565-2622 Fax: (519) 565-5452 BEEKEEPING BEYOND 2000 Schedule: March 13, 1996: 8:30 Registration-Coffee Pat Westlake 9:00-9:15 Greeting from Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food, and Rural Affair. Dr. J. Ashman 9:15-10:00 Impact of NAFTA and GATT on Honey and Bee Trade Gary Hergart 10:00-10:30 Coffee and Donuts. (Served) 10:30-11:30 Beekeeping Present and Future in USA Dr. Eric Mussen 11:30-12:00 Current Beekeeping Regulation Doug McRory 12:00- 1:15 Lunch (Served) 1:15-1:45 Impact of US-border Closure on Beekeeping in Canada Gary Hergart 1:45-2:30 Infectious Diseases (AFB, nosema, virus,..etc. ) in Honey Bees Dr. Cynthia Scott-Dupree 2:30-3:00 Coffee 3:00-3:45 Impact of the African Bees on Beekeeping in North America Dr. Eric Mussen 3:45-4:30 Business Practices and Profitability TBA 6:00-8:00 Dinner Banquet 8:00-9:30 Implementing Selection and Breeding Programs in Bees: A Case Study Barry Davies & Dr. Medhat Nasr March 14, 1996: 8:45-9:30 Impacts of Tracheal Mites and Varroa Mites on Beekeeping in Florida TBA 9:30-10:15 Mechanisms of Bee Resistance to Varroa Mites Dr. Tibor Szabo 10:15-10:45 Coffee and Donuts 10:45-11:20 Genetic Evidences for Hygienic Behaviour in Honey Bees Dr. Medhat Nasr 11:20-12:00 Alternative Beekeeping Activity: Utilizing Bees in the Agriculture system (Pollination) Dr. Eric Mussen 12:00-1:15 Lunch (Served) 1:15- 2:00 Parasitic mites, Bees, and Controls Dr. Medhat Nasr 2:00-2:45 Mechanization of Beekeeping Dr. Eric Mussen 2:45-3:15 Coffee 3:15-3:50 Effects of Worker Genotypic Diversity on The Honey Bee Colony Dr. Medhat Nasr 3:50-4:30 What will a commercial Beekeeping operation look like in year 2000? Doug McRory 4:45 Adjournment ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:59:37 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Buckfast suppliers in the U.S. Two(?) years ago, Howard Weaver's business was divided by his sons. One son (R. Weaver) specializes in queens and one son (B. Weaver) specializes in package bee production. There was an article explaining the split in American Bee Journal (although I don't know what issue) as an amicable split of the father's business to his two sons. I believe Weaver's are the sole supplier of Buckfast bees in the states, although I could be mistaken. There is an ad in the Feb '96 issue of ABJ offering "Established Beekeeping Operation - Everything You'll Ever Need" for sale by Howard Weaver. I must admit that there are more Weaver's than I am able to track. However, based on what I am able to figure out and sales flyers I have received and advertisements in ABJ, I just yesterday updated my roladex to reflect the new Weaver addresses. B. WEAVER'S APIARIES (Packaged Buckfast Bees) Rt One Box 256 Navistota, Texas 77868 1-409-825-7312 (Phone) 1-409-825-7351(FAX) R. WEAVER'S APIARIES (Buckfast Queens) Rt One Box 260 Navistota, Texas 77868 1-409-825-2333 (Phone) 1-409-825-3642(FAX) I didn't write down Howard's address as I'm not in the market on that scale. I have never received anything but the best of service when I have dealt with Weaver's Apiaries. I hope that the split will not impact the excellent service. Aaron Morris - My Buckfasts are already on order! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Damon Subject: Pollen Cakes In the May 1995 issue of "American Bee Journal", there is an article about the use of pollen cakes to "Jump Start Your Bees" (written by Steve Taber). The formula given in that article was: 3 parts brewers yeast to 1 part pollen by weight mixed with a suger syrup of 2 parts suger to 1 part water. Twice as much syrup by weight is added to the pollen mixture. Add 1 teaspoon of "TM-25" for each 25 lb. of the mixture. My question is : Is this fed in addition to or in place of a standard extender patty? It seems to me that the dose of Terramycin is to small to be effective, if used in place of extender patties. Any comments or suggestions about this topic would be helpful. Thanks Tim Damon, Ann Arbor,MI timd@arbornet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:19:20 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Wintering Hi Bee-Liners, For the winter, some Quebec beekeepers leave their hives outside in a wooden box. Some others have expensive insulated and heated barns... Some very well insulated houses were made and are still made of straw bales. I am thinking to build a straw bale tunnel of the length of a trailer (12m, 40') and leave the hives (6 per pallet) on the flatbed trailer I need to carry them for polination to minimize handling. Is it a good idea? With colds reaching -30C (-20F) would It be better to have heating? Ventilation? When beekepers use pallets (6 hives, 3 each side) what is the orientation of the hives? Are'nt all hives supposed to have their entrance due south. Jean-Louis Adant (Quebec) Excuse my english. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Hybrids mite resistance I have a question for anyone who can answer.My 6 hives all died again this winter even though they had ample supplies. I'm assuming mites were responsible although I have'nt tested for them. Last spring, I ordered 4 swarms from York apaiaries in Ga. which were certified mite free. Now this year as I read York's brochure, I noticed they offer several strains of hybrids which were from survivor colonies (several generations back). My question is if anyone has had success w/ these survivor hybrids from ANY source, not just York. Since I need to re-order swarms, I'll probably go with these but any input will be appreciated. Mike High "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:04:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson" Subject: Opening the Hives It's February, and the occasional day reaches into the 60's and low 70's. This is my first Spring with established hives, and would like some advise on when I should first open my hives for inspection. Books I have read say "a warm day in February". What has experience taught you? I don't want to open them to soon and end up losing bees. Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA It's a great place to BEE! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:48:15 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Parker Subject: bees at 49 degrees north It got up to 15 today(60F)here on the coast so I thought I'd remove those pesky apistan strips I put in last October. (one hive of Buckfast---first year hobbyist) The bees have been very busy for about 5 hours a day for the last week. Half the returnees seem laden with pollen and I was worried they were mabey gonna start storing stuff in the two shallow supers I left on top of the 2 brood chambers. I took a spare super down to the hive and a leftover antibiotic patty from the fall. I was surprised to find that the 2 frames of honey I'd left in the top shallow super were untouched(and a little mouldy). Because this is my first spring I hardly knew what to expect but was surprised at the amt. of moisture. I removed the entire wet top super(and brought it into the house) along with one full capped comb(but mouldy--not too bad on one side but quite a bit on the other---a blueish mold---kinda benign looking). The cap was metal but the wooden inside was totally soaked and water dripped everywhere when I moved it(all transpiration from my girls?) The topboard with the hole in it that sits right under the cap was also black and waterlogged. Under all that mess things seemed a little better. I gave them a little shot of smoke,removed the Queen excluder, and lifted off THAT shallow super which seemed to still be solid with honey(at least 25 lbs). I set it aside without examining it and placed the metal cap over it temporarily as it was quite busy. Now I inched the two deep supers apart with my hive tool, lifted(uuuhhg...heavy) and the bees began to get a little excited(good thing I used the veil & gloves, I was mobbed and a couple of them were ticked off). I just tilted that sucker back(though I could barely hold it with one hand and shoulder, and I gave everybody a little smoke)put the smoker down an reached in and grabbed the strips and closed 'er up again. Moving faairly quickly(its not THAT warm and the sun is now off the hive)I replaced the full shallow super and its accupants on top of the broodchambers and put the excluder on top. Theres no way I'm gonna put that mouldy soaked super on top of the hive so I put the new dry one on and...whoops...forgot the patty. Off with the top super and damn...the patty is breaking apart ant I can't get it out of the bag. Finally, I spread the broken patty complete with paper which parts of it are stuck to...on top of the queen excluder. I then top it off again with the dry shallow super with drawn out comb from last October and(unfortunatly) the waterlogged top board and the wet tin cover. Pppheww! Now what do I do with this mouldy honey? I put one comb (the least mouldy one)in the dry super and I left another on the baseboard in front of the hive. Will they salvage it? Or next time I go in should I remove the one in the upper super. What about this one I brought into the house. There isn't alot of mould and it smells OK. My main question(and I guess this could best be aswered by someone who shares this temperate rain-forest with me) is---Is this kind of moisture build up normal and, next year, should I not leave ANY supers on the brood chambers? Also...I'd like another hive. I have two more brood chambers and have set up one of them on my roof(about 20 meters higher and more than 40meters away)The yard slopes steeply and the current hive is at the back of the lot. If, in April, I switch the bottom broodchamber(with brood & nurses ensuring the queen is not among them ) to the roof and place another deep broodchamber on top of each---am I likely to have two viable hives by winter(end of october)? Or am I more likely to disrupt things that way---should I just purchase another queen and a few pounds of bees & place her on the roof? I hope this all came across as nervous and unsure enough that I'll be flooded with advice. 1) what do I do to get this wet super in shape? While some of the drawn out comb in it looks ok---are there moulds that need to be killed. If so---how? Will the freezer do it?(I'm skeptical---January averaged well below freezing).The wood of the box also has various types of moulds growing on it(insidewhere you hang the frames). 2) is the honey usable by the bees(or anyone?)? 3) is my crumbling patty unlikely to have any antibiotic left in it and should I get it back outa there? 4)Anything important I'm overlooking? Stuart Grant Point Roberts,WA(boulder@whidbey.com) ############################################################################ ####### Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish. (Austin Farrer on C. S. Lewis.) ######################################################################## ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:30:30 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Arne Ahlin knv Subject: Re: Opening the Hives In-Reply-To: <9602150000.AAmaingate.ki.se22503@maingate.ki.se> I never open my hives until the bees are busy and the spring has arrived.Cleaning out is usually well done by the bees. It may differ between different bees. I know that my policy is not as in the text books, but my bees dont know that and tend to do very well! Arne.Ahlin@knv.ki.se ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:23:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: NBnet - New Brunswick's Regional Network 1-800-561-4459 From: "n.hamilton" Subject: Re: Hives Permanently in an Orchard and Spraying > placed on a farm where there is an apple orchard. The hives are about > 50 yards from the nearest trees. We've kept bees in our family orchard for close to 20 years, and in my rotation as family beekeeper (4 years-same bees) the hives are about 50 feet from the nearest apple tree (they have a great view during apple blossom time to remind them why they're there!) 1) There are guidelines that the certified sprayers (only 2 in our family are qualified) follow and they are careful. I don't know the specific sprays, but they would probably have a different names in your part of the world. Needless to say this is a very scary area and should be entered into with great care, many of the farmers from my youth are gone now. They didn't think they needed the protective gear. 2) My father is careful to spray when my girls are safely in the hive (before the sun hits the front door) or when there would be very few out. This usually means morning rather than night. It's a matter of being aware of where they are and arranging the spraylines to avoid having any spray directed at the hives.(thinking about wind too.) I'm not an expert but I hope this helps. Nancy Hamilton prism@nbnet.nb.ca "It is not enough to have a good mind. New Brunswick, Canada The main thing is to use it well" -Ren=E9 Descartes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:19:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Opening the Hives In a message dated 96-02-14 19:01:16 EST, robinsons@SKN.NET (Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson) write: >It's February, and the occasional day reaches into the 60's and low 70's. >This is my first Spring with established hives, and would like some advise >on when I should first open my hives for inspection. Books I have read say >"a warm day in February". What has experience taught you? I don't want to >open them to soon and end up losing bees. You are well within the safety margin. We routinely open hives here in SC in temperatures of upper 50's up. Don't leave them open too long, and you don't need to break apart the brood area, unless there are signs of problems. If you do look at brood frames, be conscious of wind, as spring winds are very dry, and will kill brood quickly. Also, don't leave them exposed to sun for any longer than necessary. It is of value to check them now. As you check consider: Do they have an adequate number of bees? Are they bright, clean and healthy looking or do they look greasy and smell sour. If the latter is true, you may have a problem with mites, chalkbrood, poor ventilation, or a poor queen. Be sure to heft the hive to check weight. The remaining time until the first honey flow is the most dangerous time, and the best bees are the quickest to starve, because they are brooding up, and the demand quickly outstrip the reserves. I've seen many a hive with a huge cluster that starved during a couple days of bad weather in mid-March. They were getting just enough feed out there to survive day by day, but had no reserves, and died quickly. You don't feel too bad to lose a hive that was already in serious trouble, but one with eight frames of brood at mid-March is a terrible loss. If the bees look good, but are light, get feed to them quickly. If the bees look good, and are loaded with honey, you have a pregnant cow, which can give you a calf (or two) in six to eight weeks. Give them an extra brood chamber and plenty of stimulative feed, and you may get three or four calves (nucs). We expect to still have some cold days, and we don't want the bees to have to heat an extra box until they are ready, but we also have to keep ahead of them. The ideal solution is to place the new empty box UNDER the brood nest (heat rises). Most of our bottoms are stapled, since we are migratory, so we put them above. To solve the heat problem, we put newspaper over the cluster, then add the empty. Then we pour 5-8 lbs of sugar on top of the paper. It receives moisture from their respiration on cold nights and hardens into a feed brick, directly over the cluster. They can eat it at their leisure, and also cut away the paper, whenever they are ready. Good bees will be ripping strong and give you many frames of brood for increase. Have your equipment ready, because they will make the increase, whether you help or not. -Only that your "calves" will run off and get lost in the woods. - A good way for a beekeeper to go broke. Don't waste too much effort on poor bees, they won't respond, and may die after all your work and feeding. Mark them for certain requeening, if they survive till spring. Don't nurse along junk. Culling is the flip side of good breeding. Good luck. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:18:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Hives Permanently in an Orchard and Spraying In a message dated 96-02-14 10:25:23 EST, Matthew_Ter_Molen@DEVELOPMENT.UCHICAGO.EDU writes: > 1) Are there any sprays that can be used in this close proximity to > hives? > > 2) Is is just a matter of when they apply the spray? (at night, after > petal drop?) The applicator has a legal responsibility to protect the foraging bees. This is contained in the label directions, which vary according to the material used. Each label has directions specifically designed to the relative toxicity and residual activity of that material for bees. If the material is quick acting, the label will usually indicate that the material is toxic by direct contact, and direct that application not be done while bees are foraging in the application area. This will protect the hives in the area, as the spray will not be contacted by the bees. Many of the modern sprays break down within minutes after contact with the plant, and bees can come in a couple hours later with no significant danger. If the material has a long life, the directions will indicate that it is toxic by residual action. It would then be illegal to apply this to any bloom attractive to bees, if its residual activity were long enough to last until the next foraging period. There are tables that tell how long materials will last. I have personally kept bees along the edge of active orchards that I sprayed on a regular schedule (I used to be an apple/cherry grower). It is sometimes inconvenient to plan for the protection of the bees, but it is necessary to protect pollinators (bumbles and solitary bees are likewise included by the labels), and it is required by law. We never had damage from our farm spraying, but sometimes were hit by neighbors. Orchardist don't always seem to comprehend bee protection label directions, and applicators must be held accountable by beekeepers. Don't count on the Sierra Club to protect the bees, they aren't perceived as loveable. The most dangerous times are related to the bloom that is present. During the actual fruit bloom time few orchardists will spray, because they want to get pollinated, but they often jump the gun as soon as they feel confident that they have a good set. In fact many old extension spray manuals will recommend that petalfall application be made at 3/4 petalfall. You need to get right after any agent that still repeats this today, as it is a clear cut recommendation of pesticide misuse. And recommendations of misuse, in most states, have similar penalties to actual misuse. So get your current fruit recommendations from your extension office. Also keep tabs on their day to day advisories, often printed in local newspapers, and newsletters to growers. Get on these lists. Make sure they get this straight and up to date. The second danger period is during the clover bloom. Many orchards have a solid clover lawn underneath the trees. It starts bloom in late June or early July - about the same time as the really powerful, broad spectrum insecticides are used. An applicator could comply by using quick acting materials at night, but at this time, they usually want something much more powerful and long lasting. So compliance with the label law would have to be based on getting rid of the clover bloom, by herbicides, or by mowing the flower heads just before the application. If you check the bees and they have piles of stinking, dead bees in front of the hives, you can be sure than an application was made in violation, and it is your job to hold the perpetrators accountable. Don't expect to recover losses; you've already lost more than you could recover. But you can make them pay attention, and obey the law. They will lose their certification, if they don't. You might think this seems harsh and severe, but pesticide misuse is one of the main reasons for a serious decline in pollinators, not just kept bees, but wild bumblebees, and many species of solitary bees as well. I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars from misuse, so it has kept me a poor man; certainly it has prevented me from doing a lot more pollination than I have. The applicators need to understand this is serious, and keep strictly by the rules. It is somewhat easier if the grower himself does the spraying, because even though his mind is currently on the pest he wants to kill, in the back of his mind, he knows he needs you next spring. If he contracts the persticide applications, you may have more difficulty getting through. It doesn't usually occur to the applicator that the farmer who goes under, because he can't get his crops pollinated, will not be around to hire him in the future. That is just a little too profound, when it is simpler to focus on the paychecks from spraying the most possible acres. You have to motivate him by the certainty of being caught and prosecuted, if he doesn't obey the rules. IPM (Integrated Pest Management) may offer some slight help, but unfortunately not much. When they speak of beneficial insects they are talking about preditors on the bad bugs. Bees are generally ignored, and little or no training is given to their protection. If they are dealt with, it is usually in terms of pre FIFRA (Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act of 1976) methods that involve the beekeeper coming to the site to "protect" the bees. IPM advisors and applicators should understand that a demand for the beekeeper to "protect" the bees is a statement of INTENT to MISuse, because the label refers to all bees, not just those kept by the known beekeeper. This includes wild honeybees, bees kept by unknown beekeeper, bumble bees, and solitary bees. Point out that the label directions apply to "foraging" bees, not beehives. If foraging bees are protected, beehives will as well. Good luck. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:32:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: February issue of APIS Distributed to: USR:[MTS]INTERNET.DIS;84, mts FILENAME: FEBAPIS.96 Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) Volume 14, Number 2 February 1996 ORGANIC HONEY?--RECENT DEVELOPMENTS At a recent honey sales seminar put on by the National Honey Board and the Minnesota Honey Producers, there was a great deal of emphasis on adding value to honey products. This idea was reinforced by Carl Loop Jr., president of the Florida Farm Bureau, discussing the October 1995 report of a task force of the Council for Agricultural Science and Technology (CAST) in his remarks in the February 1996 FloridAgriculture. According to Mr. Loop, besides helping producers, adding value to agricultural products would have many positive influences on the total economy. However, Mr. Loop concludes, this new "mindset" requires a change in how many segments of agriculture are presently doing business. Perhaps no challenge is greater for the agriculturalist than beginning to produce and market "organic" products. Reliance on pesticides, fertilizers and other non-organic inputs has been described as almost an "addiction" in many agricultural operations. A few years back, none of this would have been the case for honey producers who already had what many considered by fiat an organic product. But, ironically, the introduction of tracheal and Varroa bee mites has placed the beekeeper in the same position as those farmers who still rely on chemicals. The present control methods for these parasites appear to have greatly reduced the possibilities of marketing organic products from the hive. I continue to get inquiries concerning the possibility of producing organic honey, however. Other hive products also come under this rubric, including propolis, pollen and beeswax. It would be tragic, though because of honey's reputation not catastrophic, if the opportunity to sell value-added organic products was lost to the beekeeping industry. The possibility is real, however, and the industry should take note of recent activity on the organic certification front. Recent History of Organic Production: According to recent issue of Farm Aid News, Vol. 3, No. 20, December 1995, the use of organic materials in farm production dates back to the beginning of crop cultivation. However, non- organic farming has dominated our country's fields since the 1940s when synthetic fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides were introduced at relatively cheap prices offering large yield rewards. After several decades of this intensive production, farmers saw their soil deteriorate and their income shrink to below poverty- wage levels. At the same time, a growing number of consumers have become more aware of food safety issues and consequently are beginning to demand food grown without synthetic chemicals. This changing consumer demand has made it possible for many family farmers to earn a viable living from the sale of organic farm products. Historical records of organic farming trends are unavailable from the USDA, according to the newsletter, because this type of production has not been practiced on a wide scale over the past 50 years. However, private and non-profit organizations have begun tracking the progress and growth of organic production in the United States. According to a nationwide survey conducted by the Organic Farming Research Foundation (OFRF), quoted in the newsletter, most organic farms are run by family farmers. Eighty-four percent are sole proprietors or family partnerships. "The reason family farmers are responsible for much of organic production is because they are able to respond more quickly and innovatively to market demand changes than someone who has a lot of overhead," explains OFRF'S Bob Scowcroft. OFRF estimates that there are approximately 4,000 state and locally certified organic farmers in the United States and another 6,000 to 8,000 farmers who meet general organic certification requirements but who are not yet certified. It also estimates that the amount of farmland devoted to organic crops has increased ten-fold since 1980. On this acreage farmers grow a variety of crops, including vegetables, fruits, herbs, fresh cut flowers, dairy products, meats, grains and beans. Organic Products Price Driven: Organic crop prices vary depending on local supply and demand conditions, according to Farm Aid News, and premiums can range from 25 to 100 percent of the conventional market price. Research quoted from the Midwest Organic Alliance, for example, found that producers growing organic soybeans received three times the price paid to growers who sold non-organic. Greg Welsh, an Iowa Extension agent and advisor to organic growers in several states, is quoted as saying growers in the Midwest receive, on average, $14 to $15 per bushel for their organically grown soybeans. Likewise New Mexico farmer Martin Connaughton says he earns up to $2 per pound for specialty, organic potatoes, compared to eight cents per pound for non-organic U.S. varieties. Consumer Demand Drives Price: The newsletter also reports that a study by Rodale Press found in 1993 that nearly two-thirds of all consumers had tried organic produce, and nearly 90 percent said they would buy organic food consistently if it cost the same as non-organic food. Some 41 percent of those consumers surveyed were willing to buy organic produce even if it cost more. As a result, sales of organic foods have increased steadily over the past four years: Sales of Organic Food Products: Year Sales in Billions 1990 $1 1991 $1.25 1992 $1.54 1993 $1.89 1994 $2.3 Source: Farm Aid News quoting The Packer, October 24, 1994; PANUPS, July 12, 1995. Organic Standards: Unfortunately, the term "organic" means different things to different people, the reason Congress promulgated Chapter 94 of U.S. Code Title 7 concerning organic certification. Under this legislation, The National Organic Program in Washington, D.C., ph 202-720-2704, is finalizing proposed standards. Once published in the Federal Register, and after a comment period, these standards will be mandated to the states for their use. However it is not known when this process will be finished; the bill called for much of this to be in place as early as 1993. In the meantime, many states have gone ahead with their own programs. A listing of U.S. Organic Certifiers is currently available on the World Wide Web site: http://www.mother.com./agaccess. The State of Florida promulgated statute 504.22-504.36, the Florida Organic Farming and Food Law in 1990. It defines "organic food" as that labeled organic or organically grown, produced, transported, distributed, processed and packaged without the use of synthetic pesticides, synthetically compounded fertilizers, synthetic growth hormones or artificial radiation, verified by a certifying agent. A certifying agent must make application to the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. The Department's Division of Marketing and Development (ph 904-488-4277) has published a directory of licensed certifying agents and organic farms. According to my copy, there are seven agents who have certified 69 farms for a number of crops ranging from citrus to shitake mushrooms. Significantly, no honey producer or packer is among these. One of the Florida certifying agents is Florida Organic Growers and Consumers, Inc. (FOG), Box 12311, Gainesville, FL 32604, phone/fax 352-377-6345. This non-profit 501 (c)(3) corporation inspects its growers yearly. A call to their office revealed that they had no knowledge of any Florida organic honey certification. This is not surprising, considering the guidelines FOG has made available on a limited basis to those interested in the subject: A. Feeding of bees 1. Honey and bee pollen from a known certified organic source is permitted. 2. The use of sugar or sugar syrup as a regular feed source in prohibited. B. Control/prevention of disease 1. Hives should be regularly checked, with diseased hives kept separate from healthy hives. 2. Use of antibiotics in honey production is prohibited, except when the health of the colony is threatened. a. Options: i. If antibiotics are used in a health emergency, the hive must be removed and immediately taken out of organic production. ii. Only the extraction immediately following the use of antibiotics may not be sold as organic. 3. Extracting honey for organic sale from brood chambers in which antibiotics have been used is prohibited. C. Foraging areas 1. Apiaries must be located on certified organic land. 2. It is prohibited to locate apiaries within three miles of flowering agricultural crops that have been sprayed with conventional pesticides, if the bees could be using these crops for forage. 3. Apiaries may not be located within two miles of sanitary landfills, golf courses or major traffic areas. 4. Beekeepers must provide clean water and sufficient certified organic forage to feed bees throughout the season. D. Queen rearing 1. Cross breeding of bee families is encouraged, although the making of artificial swarms is permitted. 2. Artificial insemination is permitted. E. Honey treatment 1. All surfaces that honey contacts should be stainless steel or coated with beeswax. Honey may not contact galvanized steel or metal with surfaces that oxidize. 2. Mechanical uncapping of combs is preferred to uncapping with heat. In no instance should heat be higher than 95 degrees F. 3. Honey extraction facilities should be designed to prevent the spread of disease. 4. Oxidized barrels are prohibited; re-used barrels are permitted if previously used for food service. 5. Chemical bee repellents are prohibited. Those working at the National Organic Program Office couldn't give me details about the final guidelines. However, they could be very much in line with those above. If that is the case, there should be plenty of room for commentary by beekeepers and others when they appear in the Federal Register. Especially significant is the relevance of queen rearing to organic production, the absence of references to other hive products and the lack of any guidelines about tracheal and Varroa mite control. LOOKING FOR RESISTANT BEES The USDA-ARS Bee Breeding Genetics and Physiology Laboratory is looking for honey bees resistant to Varroa mites. Honey bees that have survived for more than a year without being treated and/or those in abandoned hives are ideal candidates. If you have knowledge of candidate queens, then do yourself and the industry a favor by contacting the Lab, 1157 Ben Hur Rd., Baton Rouge, LA 70820-5502, ph 504/767-9280, FAX 504/766-9212, email: trindere@asrr.arsusda.gov. Upcoming International Bee Meetings: Costa Rica: Sixth IBRA Conference on Tropical Bees, 12-17 August, 1996. Contact IBRA, 18 North Rd., Cardiff CF1 3DY UK, phone (+44) 1222-372409, fax (+44) 1222-665522, email:ibra@cardiff.ac.uk. Cuba: Apitherapy, Propolis, Honey Flora and Pollination, 21-24 August, 1996. Contact Adolfo M. Perez Pineiro, Estacion Experimental Apicola, El Cano, Arroyo Arenas, La Lisa, Havana, Cuba 19190, ph 84-5511, fax (537) 33-5086. Israel: Bee Products: Properties, Applications and Apitherapy, 26-30 May, 1996. Contact Dan Knassim Ltd., P.O. Box 1931, Ramat Gan 52118, Israel, ph 972-3-6133340, fax 972-3-6133341. Havana, Cuba Sincerely, Malcolm T. Sanford Bldg 970, Box 110620 University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Phone (352) 392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX: 352-392-0190 Address: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU APIS on the World Wide Web-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:46:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Pollen Cakes > The formula given in that article was: 3 parts brewers yeast to 1 part >pollen by weight mixed with a suger syrup of 2 parts suger to 1 part >water. Twice as much syrup by weight is added to the pollen mixture. Add >1 teaspoon of "TM-25" for each 25 lb. of the mixture. > > My question is : Is this fed in addition to or in place of a standard >extender patty? It seems to me that the dose of Terramycin is to small to >be effective, if used in place of extender patties. > I would suggest that the Terramycin is hopelessly inadequate. Our formula says 1 tablespoon to 3 of sugar. There are I believe 3 teaspoons per tablespoon!! And we dose our hives a total of 3 times at weekly intervals, with 2 tablespoons of sugar mixture per dose. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:47:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Opening the Hives >It's February, and the occasional day reaches into the 60's and low 70's. >This is my first Spring with established hives, and would like some advise >on when I should first open my hives for inspection. Books I have read say >"a warm day in February". What has experience taught you? Whoa, 'a warm day in Feb'!! That for us is -10C :-) I would suggest a High of 60F, that's what I look for here. The bees should be flying well, very little wind, a pleasant day!! Open quickly, minimum disturbance, check for eggs, alls well,.... for now! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:59:35 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: stan sandler Subject: Re: Hives Permanently in an Orchard and Spraying I would add a few comments to Nancy's advice. Each spray is different, and some are far more toxic to bees than others. The book "Hive and the Honeybee" (and probably some others) lists the LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of sampled bees) for most sprays and rates them for danger. Common sense is important! When the trees are flowering no spraying should be done. But after flowering most sprays will not affect the bees if 1. The spray drift does not come in contact with the bees 2. There are no flowers under the orchard that the bees might be visiting that would be contaminated by spray. Stan Sandler Milk and Honey Farm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:07:26 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Dancing to the music? In-Reply-To: <199602130325.XAA20548@bud.peinet.pe.ca> > I forward to the list the following response from William > F. Towne who has researched the roll of sound in honeybee > communication. > > Robert Hawkes Hi all, I hesitate a little to bring this up because of both the recent amount of (very interesting!) traffic and because I personaly don't have the knowledge. So, if this is rubbish, please say so, I won't be offended. However, if it's true I shall also be fascinated. I first heard about hearing in bees in a recent lecture on bees and their senses. I am sceptical that bees are 'deaf', because we know they can feel vibrations and sound is just a vibration -- the only real question is the frequency ranges that apply. Well, the lecturer stated that bees not only hear, but also that they make 'squeeks' during their waggle dance and that these squeeks, like the number of waggles, are closely related to the distance between colony and crop. If I remember correctly it was an inverse like the number of waggles. Does anyone out there have any knowledge of this area and, if so, just how does it fit into the waggle-dance conundrum? (is that a fair word?) Regards, Gordon. -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:41:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donna Nimey Subject: Re: Hives Permanently in an Orchard and Spraying how do i get off this list?? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 21:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "R. C. Chapin" Subject: new products Reading article by Barnaby J. Feder in business section of NY Times 11 Feb 96, re. new products for farmers based on biotechnology. He writes: "Farmers are expected to happily pay premium prices for corn altered to produce its own insecticide against common pests like the European corn borer. Also reaching the market this year are soybeans engineered to be resistant to common herbicides so that farmers have more flexibility in how they use herbicides." Anyone have info. re. the effect of these developments on honeybees? Will this affect feed corn as well as sweet corn? We are surrounded here by feed corn (not as much as in the past) and it is probably a major source of pollen for our bees. Richard Chapin Montrose, PA Richard C, Chapin Lake Chrisann Road RR1, Box 102A Montrose, PA 18801 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 04:02:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: stan sandler Subject: Re: Dancing to the music? > >Well, the lecturer stated that bees not only hear, but also >that they make 'squeeks' during their waggle dance and that >these squeeks, like the number of waggles, are closely related >to the distance between colony and crop. If I remember correctly >it was an inverse like the number of waggles. > >Does anyone out there have any knowledge of this area and, if >so, just how does it fit into the waggle-dance conundrum? (is >that a fair word?) Dear Gordon: The answer to your question is contained in the article: "The Sensory Basis of the Honeybee's Dance Language" by Wolfgang Kirchner and William F. Towne in the June 1994 issue of Scientific American, which should be available in the Hampshire public library. I will quote one paragraph from the article which goes directly to your question and which other Bee-L members who have not read the article might find interesting: "If we now put the pieces together, we can see how the dance language works. The dancer emits sound signals that help the dance followers determine where the dancer is and how she is moving, which in turn offers them critical information regarding the direction and distance to the feeding site. The dance attenders receive these signals through the Johnston's organs located in their antennae, which are always held near the dancer. Because these organs are bilateral-one on the left and one on the right-the dance followers can use them to judge their position with respect to the dancer and therefore understand the direction to the food. At the same time, the followers emit sounds that vibrate the comb. The forager stops her dance when she receives these signals and delivers samples of the food she has collected. These appetizers give the dance followers additional hints about the taste, smell and quality of the food source. The bees attend the dancing for a while and then fly out to find the food source on their own. If they are lucky, they will find the food. If they fail, they will return to the nest and try again." I expect we will hear from Adrian Wenner eventually on this specific matter, as he evidently has very strong opinions still against dance language as a real means of communication, and yet he was one of the first to investigate the ability of bees to "hear" (Wenner, A.M.; SCIENCE 138:446; 1962) Sincerely, Stan Sandler, Milk and Honey Farm, Prince Edward Island P.S. I hardly think you should apologize for raising this matter. Unless the title is a misnomer, Bee-L is supposed to be "the discussion of bee biology"!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 04:02:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: stan sandler Subject: fat content in pollen substitute I make a pollen substitute of three parts soybean flour, one part brewers yeast, and one part skim milk powder. I add a few drops of fennel oil which really helps the bees find it once they've started taking it in (don't go chewing licorice anywhere on my farm!) I feed it in large bowls for a couple of days when the bees are making their first cleansing flights in the spring, and then mix it in heavy syrup and make patties which I put on the top bars. I do not medicate it usually, and I am using it to boost brood rearing for the short period between first cleansing flights here (around the beginning of April) and the first major pollen sources (alder, poplar and red maple usually around the third week in April). My question is this: I can buy non-fat soybean flour for half the price of full fat soy flour. The bees will take down pollen substitute made with either one. What are the nutritional advantages of one over the other, and does it make much difference given the short time that I am feeding substitute? I had always understood with extender patties that the fat content slowed the consumption of them by the bees. In this instance I would like the bees to consume as much pollen substitute as possible, but I think that the full fat flour is probably closer to the fat content of real pollen. Stan Sandler Milk and Honey Farm Prince Edward Island Canada ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:34:49 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Hives Permanently in an Orchard and Spraying On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 Stan Sandler answered : [cut] > ... But after flowering most sprays will not affect the bees if > 1. The spray drift does not come in contact with the bees > 2. There are no flowers under the orchard that the bees might be visiting > that would be contaminated by spray. > > Stan Sandler Milk and Honey Farm Seems I'd add an important 3. if there is no natural water in the neighbourhood ! 3. There is a clean, sunny, protected from the spray, watering place where the bees are usually taking water ! Jean-Marie Lat.Long. : N:50.30' E:04.56' - Alt. : 200 m - North sea : 200 km ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Marie Van Dyck Fax +32 81 72 42 72 B.P. 102 email : jmvandyck@quick.cc.fundp.ac.be B-5000 NAMUR(Belgium) Medical school - Biochemistry dept ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 07:31:25 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "rbessin@ca.uky.edu" Subject: Re: new products Corn farmers will be able to use these new transgenic corn hybrids that do produce their own insecticide. The will express a protien that that is toxic to many Lepidopterous insects, larvae of some species of moths and butterflies. The protien is normally produced by a soil bacteria, _Bacillus thuringiensis_. This particular protien is highly selective and acts as a stomach poison for those insects just mentioned. Here at UK and other universities they have looked at the effects on other insects (non lepidopterous) that feed on the pollen and to my knowledge have found no effect. Currently, these new trangenetic hybrids are all field corn types, not sweet corn. In my opinion, this should have a positive effect on honey bees. There should be less application of broad spectrum (read that as potentially more toxic to honey bees) insecticides on corn during pollen shed. Hopefully, fewer losses by beekeepers like yourself. As for the trangenic soybeans, these are tolerant to the herbicide Roundup. Growers using these new varieties would be more likely to use one or two applications of this herbicide during the growing season. Ric Bessin Extension Entomologist Department of Entomology University of Kentucky Lexington, KY 40546-0091 (606) 257-7456 FAX (606) 323-1120 rbessin@ca.uky.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) Report from SC and FL Good News: The recent Siberian Express (cold air mass) didn't do as much damage to Florida citrus as feared. As most of you know, freezes in recent years have moved the citrus belt much farther south, right into the edge of the Everglades, and it seems sometimes that the freezes are destined to follow. However, at least this time, damage was slight. Bud development is excellent, and a smattering of bloom is already appearing. Beekeepers love this early bloom, as it "primes the pump." It stimulates buildup, creating more bees to go out and get the main flow. (I love the smell of an apiary, when the citrus flow is on). More good news: The maple flow in other areas of the southeast is excellent. Here in SC, it started the last week of January, stopped during that Alberta Clipper (we dropped to 8 degrees F one night), and resumed with a vengeance afterward. Yesterday was in the 70's, and bees were capping new honey in the stronger hives. I think we are past the peak flow now. North Carolina and Virginia, it's your turn. We are due for colder weather this weekend, but by fits and starts, spring is here. We always have to be cautious, because a good maple flow will stimulate the bees, then it is always followed by 4-6 weeks, which, though they may be warm, are quite barren of nectar flows. So March is feed month here, and we aim to do a lot of it, both for survival, and to stimulate those "pregnant cows." April is calving season. Our losses are heavier than we would have found acceptable in pre-mite days, but some of that is from deliberate culling of weak stock, and some of it is from natural culling of weak stock, so we don't feel so bad. The remaining stock is looking very good, and we expect to gain in the end. I am not a scientist, so I cannot back up my observations with lab work and controlled double-blind experiments and such. But my experience has been pointing me to a strong suspicion that the culprit that we really need to deal with, in the end, is a virus, or viruses. It seems that the end result, whether you are talking tracheal mite, varroa mite, pms, chalkbrood, dysentery, or nosema, is a group of similar symptoms. Bees become weak, and respond poorly, if at all, to feeding; they look greasy, brood comb looks greasy; they smell sour rather than sweet, the queen pattern becomes weak and spotty, and the hive will not thrive; often it does not survive. Yet there are always some hives that do thrive and do well. I believe we MUST breed from these, as they are resistant to whatever. The mites may actually be carriers of some virus, but perhaps it is just a total buildup of stress to susceptible bees, until this virus (or whatever), that is always present, kicks in. A pesticide hit can also do it, which points to stress as the trigger. Some bees will recover, others start an unstoppable decline, no matter how much you feed. We can take two different approaches to solution. One is to control every type of stress at every turn, using medications and pesticides to hit all diseases and parasites; the other is to focus intensely on breeding a stronger bee. I guess they are not mutually exclusive, but for my money, the second method looks more promising for the long haul. Maybe the scientist-types could comment? Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:31:53 +22324924 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Honey bee breeding In-Reply-To: <960216085847_424071116@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" at Feb 16, 96 08:58:48 am Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter, wrote: > We can take two different approaches to solution. One is to control every > type of stress at every turn, using medications and pesticides to hit all > diseases and parasites; the other is to focus intensely on breeding a > stronger bee. > > I guess they are not mutually exclusive, but for my money, the second > method looks more promising for the long haul. > Breeding programs require funding and a long-term commitment. They also are risky. The beekeeping industry probably needs to focus on bee breeding and it's importance before any breeding programs even begin to be conceived. For every beekeeper who knows that bee breeding is the solution to the current conditions in apiculture, there are twenty-five who'd rather make more profit now and treat their bees with whatever works. skeptical, Adam -- Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Beginners In-Reply-To: <199602152059.QAA01731@bud.peinet.pe.ca> Bee People; FYI: The Worcester County Beekeepers Association is conducting their 54th annual beginners beekeeping school. It will be held starting March 7th 1996 from 7:00p.m.to9:30p.m. for 7 weeks. At the Umass Medical School Lake St. Worcester, Ma.U.S.A Cost $20.00 If you would like more infor mation. Email me privately at the address below. John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:57:16 GMT+1 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GILLOOLY D Subject: royal jelly To whom it may concern, >From the point of view of assesing the potential of this poduct as a food supplement and its potential curative properties,could anyone pass on info on the following questions: *What is the potential of this product according to scientific research? *What are the limiting regulations that could necessitate the processing of this product?It appears it can be sold as a natural product..... *In terms of harvesting this product,is it potentially viable,and if so where best should it be located? *Is it possible to isolate and reproduce its active ingredient(s),thereby producing the product artifically? I would be gratefully for any information on this.-Its part of a Business project. Thanks, David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:17:33 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Propolis: 2nd Installment Good Afternoon, Everyone, Well, it seems I need to start out this post with a couple disclaimers, for those of you who need them. I'm not a doctor or scientist. I'm your average "Joe Blow", off-the-street, bee-keeper. Some folks want documented proof of what I'm writing. I don't have documented proof, other than my own medical bills (or lack of them), to show you that propolis works. The information, that I have shared, has come from varied sources; gleaning a little bit here and a little bit there. In the last post, I should have made the destinction between synthetic antibiotics and natural ones a little more obvious. For that oversite, I apologize. However, I did say that propolis is a natural, selective antibiotic. I also indicated that it is an immune system booster. Now, "on with the show". Someone asked me if I was purchasing already prepared propolis or using my own. In answer to that question, for four years we have been purchasing our propolis extract from a health-food store. Last year I began trying to trap my own, but I started very late in the season. I had collected some, but we had a friend in need, whom we gave it to. So, this will be, really, the first year of serious attempted trapping. Last year, I purchased two different traps. Each have good and bad qualities. One is like a sheet of loose-woven fabric, made of a very flexible plastic. I liked this one, because the bees seemed to like it the best. However, it layed on top of the frames, which meant that it was only accessible, by the bees, in the spaces between the frames. Obviously, it limited the amount of propolis that could be trapped. I am going to try to figure out a frame that I can remove it from, once it's full, that will hold it away from the frames and the top cover. The other trap is a black, rigid plastic unit that is the same size as the hive body. Instead of the diamond shaped weave, like the green one, it has long, skinny slots, therefore, it's harder to clean. It doesn't lay on top of the frames, but it does set flush against the top cover and the bees didn't seem too interested in it. To remove the propolis from the traps, the method is the same for both. Place the trap in a plastic bag, in the freezer. Once the propolis is frozen, it will pop out of the trap. It seems to come out of the green trap the easiest. Also, the green trap can be folded small, to fit easier in the freezer. The black unit stays the size of the hive body, so it's hard to fit in the freezer, if your freezer's anything like mine. During the next installment, we will talk about what to do with the propolis, once you've trapped it. Until then... Cheers! Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:48:44 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Whitney S. Cranshaw" Subject: Re: new products Regarding the note by R. Chapin: >Reading article by Barnaby J. Feder in business section of NY Times 11 Feb >96, re. new products for farmers based on biotechnology. >He writes: "Farmers are expected to happily pay premium prices for corn I can't think that this development would be in any way negative in the near term to beekeepers and has many very positive aspects recommending it. The technology in question involves inserting genes into these plants for production of the toxic protein in the bacterial insecticide Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt). Plants such altered purportedly will resist various caterpillar pests (notably European corn borer) that currently are treated with various spray/granular treatments of insecticides - some of which are very damaging to honeybees. Bacillus thuringiensis protein-based insecticides, either sprayed as an insecticide (e.g., Dipel, Thuricide...) or in these new plants will not affect honeybees. They have long been recognized as being about the most honeybee compatible insecticides that exist. That being said, I am extremely against the whole idea of using the Bt gene in these transgenic plants. Although the short term benefits may likely be real, the serious risk is that when large acreages of Bt-toxin containing plants are grown we will very quickly develop strains of insects that are resistant to Bt. Selective pressure will be extreme. And we will then lose forever this important and highly selective pest management tool. Whitney Cranshaw Department of Entomology Colorado State University wcransha@ceres.agsci.colostate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) In-Reply-To: <960216085847_424071116@emout10.mail.aol.com> On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter wrote: > Yet there are always some hives that do thrive and do well. I believe we > MUST breed from these, as they are resistant to whatever. > We must be extremly cautious with this approach. Survivors that do well and thrive may just be lucky. We have seen this to be true many times the past three years. Breeders selected in this fashion should be monitored for at least 3 years. The problem is obvious, its slow and by that time the queen may have been superceded or swarmed. Picking a "lucky" queen can ruin an otherwise sound program. I suggest we pick our breeders by proven bio assay techniques such as the frozen brood test for hygenic behavior or the quick test for HTM resistance. Of course many more tests are needed these days and hopfuly our scientists will be devoloping tests to deal with varroa, nosema, and viruses. > bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Mite resistant bees continued I've gotten several replys to my question which were informative but nobody that had actually had experiance with a mite resistant bee strain.Again I can only assume tis mites killing my swarms,I have'nt had any tests run since its such a hassle.But the facts are:I had no problems for 2 years,all colonies thrived & wintered well.The last 2 winters,all colonies were dead by shortly after X-mas.Starvation is out since all hives had ample stores.In every hive bees were still mostly in clusters on full combs & simply dead.If anyone has other theories on cause of death I'm all ears. Of course being a bee-keeper, I will order several more swarms & have at it again.Thanks for your help, Mike "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 04:29:39 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued > Again I can only assume tis mites killing my swarms,I have'nt > had any tests run since its such a hassle. If you won't do even the most basic things to help yourself... > Of course being a bee-keeper... I don't think so. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 09:11:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) Isn't it also true that maladies like varroa are progressive over a long time? I mean, can a colony with early varroa infestation look good for one or two years and do well, until the mites get so bad that the colony finally declines?? Last spring I started to see the loss of colonies due to varroa. This was after overwintering fine and during buildup period. Say 7 out of a dozen colonies in a typical yard just started to peter out, while the others carried on apparently fine. That's when I first saw the mites on the bees. My point is, mites were no dou bt present in the "good" colonies, too. Perhaps mites just weren't up to high enough levels to stunt colony development (?). If I bred queens from the good colonies, presuming some resistance, I'd then be wasting my time. There would be no "resistance," and it would be just a matter of time til the remaining colonies were done in. What I did was unite the dying colonies (pairs) and got the Apistan strips in all hives. The crop was good; too bad I didn't have full quota of strong colonies for it. The united sick colonies took all season to build up again, but each produced 1-1.5 supers surplus. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 01:43:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <9602171126.AB27858@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > Again I can only assume tis mites killing my swarms,I have'nt > > had any tests run since its such a hassle. > > If you won't do even the most basic things to help yourself... > > > Of course being a bee-keeper... > > I don't think so. > Of all the things I like about this group,Allen Dick is definately not one.Say Allen, why not save time & just announce now that you are,in fact,God and that all of us great unwashed masses should be in awe of your superiority.When I asked for input, I was'nt interested in sanctimonious musings by our resident dildo.If you have nothing useful to add in answer to my questions,keep quiet & brood over how your genius is overlooked by the world. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) In-Reply-To: On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Joel Govostes wrote: > Perhaps mites just weren't up to high enough levels to stunt colony > development (?). If I bred queens from the good colonies, presuming some > resistance, I'd then be wasting my time. There would be no "resistance," > and it would be just a matter of time til the remaining colonies were done > in. > Joel has made a good point. Some colonies surive because they are lucky. May be they were the last ones to be infested, or their location in the yard dicouraged drifting. Using these as breeders would be wasting time or could even undo progress in an existing program. And yet we should be looking at survivers. Maybe the scientists among us could suggest a plan for evaluating suvivors? Maybe a cooperative effort could be made to gather prospects into a breeding program? bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:35:05 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) >Maybe a cooperative effort could be made to gather prospects >into a breeding program? Seems like I recall a plan to do this about a year or two ago. There was a universal call put out (mainly to the large commercial honey producers) to send in their queens that were shown to have survived a mite onslaught. I don't recall what organization put out this call. Whatever happened to this *program*? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:40:25 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Mite Resistant Beekeepers Hi Mike: I appreciate your reply to my comment questioning whether or not you are (still) a beekeeper. I understood from your post that you have no bees due to self-admitted neglect. Don't get me wrong. I am very sorry for your loss, and share your wish for mite-proof bees. I think the question of who can honestly think of himself and call himself a beekeeper these days does need examination and that's why I commented on the list. I think the rules have changed without many of us noticing. It might help to realise that your 100% loss is a direct result of thinking that you still qualify as a beekeeper. Events have proved you wrong. The implication seemed to be that it is somehow the bees' fault (not being mite resistant) that they are all dead. Not so. Bees properly kept will still survive - even today. We have the tools. At this very moment my son (24, BA in Philosophy) is on his way (700 miles each way) to an intensive Bee Masters course. He has kept his own bees (24 hives - he usually beats my average) and worked in a large commercial outfit since he was ten, but still is not really (100%) a beekeeper. You might think this is a harsh judgement, but it is the truth and he knows it. That's why he's investing the time and effort to learn - and to write the exam. I'm personally signed up for the 3 day disease and mite clinic presented in Edmonton by our province as well as another course much farther away. I have also budgetted $10,000 for mite detection and control this year. If you have been allowing your hives to collapse with varroa, I pity your neighbours who are (hopefully) doing everything right. Why not get with the program? It's not *that* tough. The ante for calling yourself a beekeeper has been raised. Mites are here. There are no mite-proof honeybees. Even *mite-resistant* bees need an insightful and competant beekeeper who is prepared to use controls as indictated. There is no magic bullet. You have to think and observe and manage - and raise your sights. If you don't - no matter what you wish - you are not a beekeeper anymore because you simply can't keep bees alive - and that is the *minimum* standard. ------------------------------- P.S. I hope you - and others - find this useful. I spent two and a half hours trying to say it nicely. How did I do? I know it still could be construed as being a little abrupt, and I apologise in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:22:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Allen Dick (by way of \"Laura A. Downey\" )" Subject: Re: Unnecessary condenscension ***To all on the list - here is an example of the unnecessary condenscension by ***a certain Allen Dick. I don't know how many of you can learn anything ***about beekeeping from an individual like this, but I certainly don't. I am ***sure this is exactly what Mike L. High, Sr. was referring to in his e-mail. > >I hope you - and others - find this useful. I spent two and a half > >hours trying to say it nicely. How did I do? > > I don't think so. I did not find this useful in the least. > Condescending, abrasive, patronizing, and downright rude are more > like it. Well, I guess I have take advice from you on this, because you certainly seem to be the expert on all these subjects, judging from your present communication. I certainly was and am actively trying to avoid all these things, but I can see you have no such compunction. > If beekeepers can't get along, then this hobby and > livelihood certainly wont last long. We learn from each other, > including each other's mistakes, not by ridiculing someone for their > mistakes or misperceptions. A agree and did not intentionally ridicule anyone. Or flame anyone either. > I joined this mailing list to learn > from others, not to listen to them berate others for their own > personal benefit. Please explain the personal benefits. > This isn't the first time I've seen this happen > either. If you don't have something nice to say about someone else's > problems, then don't say it. Sometimes the truth just isn't nice, no matter how you dress it up. Are you planning on taking your own advice? > Why not go back to Netiquette 101... I'll see you there, I guess. Thanks for taking the trouble to write. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:40:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers >Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:05:09 >To: allend@internode.net >From: "Laura A. Downey" >Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers > >To all list recipients: > >>Don't get me wrong. I am very sorry for your loss, and share your >>wish for mite-proof bees. > >I don't think so. (Sound familiar?) > >>I think the question of who can honestly think of himself and call >>himself a beekeeper these days does need examination and that's why >>I commented on the list. I think the rules have changed without many >>of us noticing. > >The arrogance of certain beekeepers is not needed on this mailing list. >Whose rules, yours? I am not going to participate in my hobby according to your rules. Self-appointed god-like beekeepers ruin this list. I know of quite a few people who have left this list due to just this singular attitude. > >>The implication seemed to be that it is somehow the bees' fault (not >>being mite resistant) that they are all dead. Not so. Bees >>properly kept will still survive - even today. We have the tools. > >Funny, I didn't read any implication that the bees were at fault. You know what happens when you assume things. Some people do too much assuming. > >>If you have been allowing your hives to collapse with varroa, I pity >>your neighbours who are (hopefully) doing everything right. > >I pity those who think they are better than others. Fortunately, they can only do themselves harm. > >>Why not get with the program? It's not *that* tough. > >Condencension is not needed on this list. > >>The ante for calling yourself a beekeeper has been raised. Mites are >>here. There are no mite-proof honeybees. Even *mite-resistant* bees >>need an insightful and competant beekeeper who is prepared to use >>controls as indictated. There is no magic bullet. You have to think >>and observe and manage - and raise your sights. > >When did anyone say there were might-proof bees? Once again, someone is assuming too much. > >>If you don't - no matter what you wish - you are not a beekeeper >>anymore because you simply can't keep bees alive - and that is the >>*minimum* standard. > >Gee, there must be a lot of non-beekeepers out there. I doubt if all beekeepers are 100% successful every single year. I know of several commercial and professional beekeepers who have lost their bees to mites. > > >>I hope you - and others - find this useful. I spent two and a half >>hours trying to say it nicely. How did I do? > >I don't think so. I did not find this useful in the least. Condescending, abrasive, patronizing, and downright rude are more like it. If beekeepers can't get along, then this hobby and livelihood certainly wont last long. We learn from each other, including each other's mistakes, not by ridiculing someone for their mistakes or misperceptions. I joined this mailing list to learn from others, not to listen to them berate others for their own personal benefit. This isn't the first time I've seen this happen either. If you don't have something nice to say about someone else's problems, then don't say it. Why not go back to Netiquette 101... > >L. A. Downey > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:24:17 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued Michael Lance High Sr. wrote: > > "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" > > On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > > > Again I can only assume tis mites killing my swarms,I have'nt > > > had any tests run since its such a hassle. > > > > If you won't do even the most basic things to help yourself... > > > > > Of course being a bee-keeper... > > > > I don't think so. > > > Of all the things I like about this group,Allen Dick is definately not > one.Say Allen, why not save time & just announce now that you are,in > fact,God and that all of us great unwashed masses should be in awe of > your superiority.When I asked for input, I was'nt interested in > sanctimonious musings by our resident dildo.If you have nothing useful to > add in answer to my questions,keep quiet & brood over how your genius is > overlooked by the world. > Mike I enjoy Allen's comments. If you do not, then you need not read them. Eric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:04:08 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <9602181737.AA22754@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> Hello, I have something to add about 1996 beekeepers. People use to have a hive or two in there backyard and they would get a little honey from them.When Varroa came along a very large number lost there bees. We even had beekeepers with over 1,000 hives go down to almost 0.Beekeeping is changing as the world is changing. I have a friend that I have known for over 25 yearsand he had a about 80% loss when he sent some bees down to California. We set at his kitchen table and he had tears in his eyes and said I'm not a beekeeper. He has had bees 30 + years as myself. Last week he sighned a contract that is 1/4 of a million for honey.All beekeepers must read and stay on to of there bees. I was nailed this last fall. I leave the bees up in the mountains to get a late fireweed flow. I have been doing this for 25 years, not anymore.I treated too late on some that I stressed moving them down. I have seen changes in bee behavior and I want to know why. Beekeepers have to bee proactive. Not the normal layed back smell the flowers.I told a researcher a week ago about the problem with getting money for bee research.Beekeeper don't run around in red sports coats with red sports cars to go with them.If you want it you need a plan and plenty of energy. I think beekeepers in the near future will be leaning over somebodys desk saying, read my lipps.We need help with more education, to work on every positive thing we can. No negative.Only positive. I'm doing a sicience fair in our county on march 9th. It is on a 1 to 6th grade level.Every chance I get I talk to kids about the bees and how important they are to mankind.You will really have to want to be a beekeeper and the Beehavers will be gone. Best to everyone Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 19:06:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers At 03:04 PM 2/18/96 -0800, you wrote: > I have something to add about 1996 beekeepers. People use to have a hive >or two in there backyard and they would get a little honey from them.When >Varroa came along a very large number lost there bees. We even had >beekeepers with over 1,000 hives go down to almost 0. I was nailed this last >fall. I leave the bees up in the mountains to get a late fireweed flow. I have >been doing this for 25 years, not anymore. I treated too late on some that >I stressed moving them down. I bet _you_ still call yourself a beekeeper! :) Beekeepers are human. Humans aren't perfect. It takes a _real_ beekeeper to understand that. I would certainly call you a beekeeper, as I would call myself and most others here. >We need help with more education, to work on every >positive thing we can. No negative.Only positive. That's what I thought this list was about - education. Its also well known that education is much more effective when it is _positive_. Unfortunately, every so often, some feel the need to be negative or sarcastic towards others. We need to be POSITIVE and help each other. There's nothing to gain by berating someone for a mistake or lack of knowledge. We're in this together. We need to educate each other, not alienate ourselves from others because the aren't as perfect as we'd like them to be. Thank you for your positive comments. They are much appreciated. Respectfully, L. A. Downey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 22:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morty Lipton Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers This septuagenarian 'beekeeper'had three to six hives for a good many years with fair results but as an avid organic gardener, I was reluctant to use pesticides when in '89 I lost all my hives. I decided to abandon beekeeping but I kept reading the journals hoping to discover some way for me to rejoin the fraternity. Well, it was an experience running a cooperative garden in the community in which I have resided for over forty years that persuaded me to rejoin the bee fray. When 3 years ago some of our gardeners expressed interest in raising strawberries, my initial reaction was not very positive. I didn't feel that our group had the discipline required for success with June berries; first year deblossoming, the weeding, etc.Then I came across some new varieties called 'day neutrals'.Briefly, let me just say that with 'day neutrals' you get immediate results, deblossoming is not essential during the first year & the two varieties we planted, Tribute & Tristar, produced excellent tasty crops, required no pesticides and minimal care. These plants produced berries all summer long, with the harvest peaking at six week intervals. When I checked all the usual plant sources for our first planting I was surprised to find that all the well known commercial sources for these plants barely mentioned them in their ads, and the few that did presented rather confused and uninformed descriptions. For years the growers have been listing some excellent varieties which they incorrectly described as everbearers. With the arrival of the 'day neutrals' they had a problem. You see the 'day-neutrals' are true everbearers. If you clearly explained things in your ads you would be admitting that the plants traditionally described as everbearers were not true everbearers at all. And then it occurred to me that the growers also had huge investments in the traditional June berries. Why push 'day-neutrals'? Could something similiar be happening in the bee industry? Could it be that the investment in the Italian bees has had something to do with the relative lack of information that I found in the journals about other bee varieties that had developed some mite resistance. Some of the Carniolans and Buckfasts especially interested me. And so I decided to get back in the business of beekeeping. Because of my age, I decided to try raising a few colonies in a small building that I had used for extracting honey. That could be the subject of another communication if anyone is interested. The challenge was to arrange all the activities involved in beekeeping; hive manipulation, super storage, honey extraction, etc all in a small space. Since I will be housing my bees in a fully enclosed shelter, I will find it easier to observe my colonies for disease and mites and I am building a slot in the bottom board into which I can insert papers for Varroa inspections. The only guidance I have had in the construction of my beehouse came from 'The Complete Handbook of Beekeeping" by Herbert Mace. The editor of Bee Culture informs me that he knows of only three other bee houses in the U.S. In my community of 72 homesteads there were four other beekeepers. Like myself, two of the group have given up. Of the two remaining locations only two strong hives remain and one of these were Buckfasts. This spring we have all decided to restrict our colonies to the Buckfasts. We will all use Apistan as prescribed but with my colonies I plan on taking a chance on not using either menthol or terramycin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 22:52:09 +22324924 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers In-Reply-To: <3127EEE9.331E@dynanet.com> from "Morty Lipton" at Feb 18, 96 10:30:49 pm Even in Germany, where bee breeding is practiced with precision, the varroa mite is still a problem--no? Adam -- _________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:22:05 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) In-Reply-To: <199602181635.KAA28811@server.iadfw.net> On Sun, 18 Feb 1996, BusyKnight wrote: > >Maybe a cooperative effort could be made to gather prospects > >into a breeding program? > > Seems like I recall a plan to do this about a year or two ago. > There was a universal call put out (mainly to the large commercial > honey producers) to send in their queens that were shown to have > survived a mite onslaught. I don't recall what organization put > out this call. Whatever happened to this *program*? > This is starting to sound good folks. The mountain is tall but with many the task will be completed.The Experts will tell you of the problems and the time it takes. But with a cooperative effort we can do anything. The one thing that has to be set at the begining is , the ones that are putting out the effort will recieve the rewards. The rewards should bee better bees without chemicals and another example of people working together for the common good.We just need a plan , one that will get us some money. Don't ever foreget for one second how much money is made because beekeepers labor and put up with all kinds of problems to pollenate many different crops. If we think it will be done, it will be done. I had to give a presentation to get 10 mil out of Uncle Sam.I was scared to death. After my hour and half I sat down, and could not remember one thing that I said. I had a script and that lasted 30 seconds.I belived in what I was doing and they could see that.The rest was history. ( 14 mil was the #)I bet in the beekeeping comunmity we have a vast talent pool. Some much better than I at presentations. We should not roll over and say that we will fund the project.I think there are enough facts out there to show that beekeepers as a whole are having a hard time. Lets just say that the profit margin is not on par with a lot of industry.We should all work on the public. That is not hard. I give a little honey here and there and talk to the kids in schools. They call me the Honey man , and wave and smile. I would like to get an idea of how many would like to get together and get some of the things that we need.( Good Queens and money for the researchers ) There is a lot of work that we can do together Thank You Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries NE 170 Ranch Dr. Tahuya Wash 98588 USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 07:25:31 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Varroa It is clear from letters on the bee list and my own observations in the UK that many beekeepers are still not taking the threat of Varroa seriously. In consequence they have lost, or are losing most of their bees. Varroa is new only to Apis mellifera. When discovered nearly one hundred years ago it was living in harmony with its host, the eastern bee Apis cerana, which had learnt to control it and limit its capacity to do damage. When transportation brought it to our bee it was a case of new pest, new host. So far it has behaved in a most irrational fashion in that it is killing its host. No self-respecting parasite should do this because it is in effect committing suicide. No doubt in time our bees will develop resistance, grooming, rapid removal from cells, etc. and the mites will see the folly of killing off the stock. That stage is unlikely to be reached in the lifetime of our youngest beekeeper. Whilst we wait for this to happen Varroa will continue to destroy our stocks, directly or indirectly and we must limit the damage by all means possible, chemical and physical. The days of let-alone beekeeping are over. Either we manage them effectively or we lose them. The extra work involved is labour intensive which is hard luck for the commercial man but just a challenge for the amateur. At present, depending on location, we have various chemical strips, formic acid, lactic acid, talc, drone trapping, queen isolation and heat treatment with which to fight. No doubt there are other weapons being developed. In every country in Europe as Varroa arrived the first three or four years saw horrific losses after which the beekeepers took control and the situation eased. The mite arrived in England in 1992 and is gradually covering the whole country. There is no way the advance can be stopped. No doubt in two or three years time we shall regard it as just another nuisance to add to our present ills of adult and brood diseases for which, in spite of endless research, we still await a cure. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:08:58 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Acarapis woodi and Varroa and Virus In-Reply-To: On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > Heiio People, I was in my home bee yard today. It was full of sun and > about 60 F. I found another 9 dead colonys. I noticed that the > conditions in the hives were different. All had honey 40 to 60 lbs each. > Some had split clusters. I went in the house and started to look up what > I could find in Honey Bee Pathology 1991 Bailey and Ball. I know by > now we must have more information on what virus are being carried by the > mites. I would like to know if there any papers that I could get and > read. This mite problem is not a lone wolf. Since checking out Bailey and > Balls book , I found one out of 16 viruses that followed one hive almost > every step of the way. I will see if I can get it tied down and send > some samples over to U of Wa to be checked. > On the plus side , my other bees are doing great. I have brood and > larva and eggs. > Thank You > Roy I know that Brenda Ball, here in the UK, is researching the relationship between bees, varroa and viruses. The last I heard from her was that the main 'problem' virus, in the UK at least, seems to be the normally fairly benign slow paralysis virus. It appears that in the presence of varroa, the virus is able to multiply to serious levels and once it has done so it seems to reach a critical level where even destroying the varroa does not halt the virus. The colony is liable then to succumb. The current suggestion here is that varroa must be contained in mid season if the virus is not to get out of hand around late summer or autumn (fall). The rate of increase of the virus relates to the rate of increase of varroa, which in turn relates to the brood nest expansion and finally to the weather. Effects may therefore vary from climate to climate. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:17:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued At 02:24 PM 2/18/96 -0700, you wrote: >Michael Lance High Sr. wrote: >> >> "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" >> >> On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Allen Dick wrote: >> >> > > Again I can only assume tis mites killing my swarms,I have'nt >> > > had any tests run since its such a hassle. >> > >> > If you won't do even the most basic things to help yourself... >> > >> > > Of course being a bee-keeper... >> > >> > I don't think so. >> > >> Of all the things I like about this group,Allen Dick is definately not >> one.Say Allen, why not save time & just announce now that you are,in >> fact,God and that all of us great unwashed masses should be in awe of >> your superiority.When I asked for input, I was'nt interested in >> sanctimonious musings by our resident dildo.If you have nothing useful to >> add in answer to my questions,keep quiet & brood over how your genius is >> overlooked by the world. >> Mike > >I enjoy Allen's comments. If you do not, then you need not read them. > >Eric > Eric, From what I've heard from many others, you seem to be in the minority. L. A. Downey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:22:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Lackey Subject: bee-havers With about 14 years active in the Long Island Beekeeper's Club, I've met a few bee-havers rather than bee-keepers. Many quit when mites came through. How knowledgable _must_ you be to be a bee-haver. Let me relate a story, true. A couple contacted the club. They had collected no honey from their bees that year where they had always gotten two supers for at least ten years. The bees were gone. There was a terrible mess, wax moth had destroyed everything. (not their conclusion, they didn't know what a wax moth was.) What had led up to this failure ? What treatments had they been using? They had bought the house about ten years earlier. A colony of bees were out back. The old owners told them - Here is the equipment. Every April take these two boxes out and put them on the hive. (bee suits and veils provided in the box) Every November, go out an dtake the boxes off. Here is the extractor. Just scratch off the cappings, extract the honey, and put the boxes in the unheated garage until april. Repeat each year. They had done this successfully for ten years until that November, there was no honey. Their questions: Would new bees move in by next year? Should they plant more more flowers? Why did they die? The bee-havers come and go. The bee-keepeers work, study, plan, and struggle to provide an edge for their bees to hang on against the latest threat, natural or economic. These insects are truely amazing but, as with any pet or farm animal, if we are keeping it, we have a responsibility to _take_care_of_it. We see TV coverage of the terrible conditions used to produce the meat we eat and the animal rights people are up in arms. Maybe we beekeepers should watch out. The next 20/20 may be on beekeepers who expose their bees to dangerous deseases with _no_protection_ or care. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Raymond J. Lackey, EAS Master Beekeeper, VP LIBA + + Twelve years exper with 25 colonies on Long Island, NY+ + INTERNET: lackeyr@hazeltine.com + + Mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia NY 11617-2176 + + Home Phone: 516-567-1936 FAX: 516-262-8053 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 07:46:46 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: bee-havers >Repeat each year. They had >done this successfully for ten years Hell, they were EXPERT beekeepers if they had been doing nothing for ten years and getting two supers of honey from a hive regular as clock work! I've spent a lot more money on my hives than that trying to keep them safe. I'd gladly just buy a new package of bees once each TEN years if I was certain of that kind of success! ...it sure would *bee* cheaper!!! BusyKnight Dallas, TX BusyKnight busykngt@airmail.net ICBM INcode:N:32.45'W:96.45' Republic of Texas G.E. - We Bring Good Things to Life And a leading manufacturer of Thermonuclear Bombs. Life, we make it Glow in the Dark! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:04:38 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les Simms Organization: BeeLines Subject: Ulster Beekeepers' Conference ULSTER BEEKEEPERS'ASSOCIATION 53RD ANNUAL CONFERENCE ON 26TH & 27TH APRIL 1996 AT GREENMOUNT AGRICULTURAL COLLEGE, ANTRIM, N.IRELAND AGENDA - FRIDAY 26TH APRIL 1996 7.30pm Opening Ceremony. 7.45pm "Cooking with Honey" by Michael Young. 8.30pm "Nuclei Production" by Miche=E1l MacGiolla Coda. AGENDA - SATURDAY 27TH MAY 1996 9.00am Registration and a chance to view Thorne's Beekeeping Supplies. 9.30am Practical Workshops ~ "Morphometry of Honeybees", with John Donoghue; "Microscopy and Disease Detection", with Paul Moore and Martin Johnston; "Clipping the Queen's Wings", with Ronnie Macpherson; "Artificial Insemination of Queen Bees", with Dr. Philip Earle. 10.00am "How to Start Beekeeping", by Robert Shaw. 11.00am Coffee / Tea. 11.30am Short talks by Paul Smith of E.H.Thorne(Beehives) Ltd., and Mary Fisher representing Northern Bee Books. 11.50am "Pollination and the Beekeeper", by Dr. Michael Clancy. 1.00pm Lunch ~ may be purchased at the College. 2.00pm "Maximising the Honey Yield", by Patsy Bennett. 3.00pm Coffee / Tea. 3.15pm Practical Workshops 4.00pm Annual General Meeting. Greenmount Nature Trail will be open, so bring the family along. Conference admission charges: =A36 per person with a reduction for families. Overnight accommodation is available at Greenmount College. Breakfast arrangements by request. For reservations telephone 01849-462114. ------------------------------------------------------------------ D R O M O R E & D I S T R I C T B E E K E E P E R S Estd. 1984 ~ World Cup Winners 1991-92 ~ Blue Ribbon Winners 1994 Affiliated to the UBKA =95 Incorporating "Dromore Buzzette" Chairman~Michael Young =95 Secretary~Bob Shaw =95 Treasurer~Les Simms E-Mail: =95 Telephone: +44(0)1846-683512 S-Mail: 9 Governors Ridge Park, Hillsborough, Co.Down, BT26 6LD, UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers On Mite Resistant Beekeepers- Back in the good old days (about 5 years ago) I wrote the following in our club newsletter on tracheal mites: "The mites are here. I don't care what you do about them- use grease patties, menthol, buy queens advertised as mite resistant, or whatever, but if you do nothing, you will get no sympathy from me when you lose your bees." Two years later, I was the "lucky" person who first found Varroa mites in my area. Fortunately, it didn't take colony kills for me to find them; the Varroa were found on the bottom boards during spring inspection. The regrettable sad fact of life is that unless you live on an island someplace, these mites are as much a part of beekeeping today as the fact that bees have stingers. Because of these mites, our once-independent bees are now as likely to survive without care as Holstein cows. Yet there are still people out there who refuse to acknowledge the mites, and they pay dearly for their stubborness. Sure, the treatment is expensive (about $10/year for each hive), but it's something we have to do until mite-resistant bees become available. Until then we have two choices: "get with the program", or lose most of our colonies. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:31:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers In a message dated 96-02-18 22:52:42 EST, Adam Finkelstein writes: > Even in Germany, where bee breeding is practiced with precision, >the varroa mite is still a problem--no? >Adam Is that a tribute to teutonic precision, or formic acid and other chemicals we don't use? David Morris Laurel, Md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:38:28 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Parker Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued >>I enjoy Allen's comments. If you do not, then you need not read them. >> >>Eric >> > >Eric, > > From what I've heard from many others, you seem to be in the minority. Laura I'd like to add my "minority" voice to Erics. It the most recent exchanges, none of the unpleasantness has come from Allan. Thought, that since you're hearing from others---you might as well hear from me too. ...Stuart ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:03:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Regarding Allen,comments & flames.... First let me start by thanking those readers who took time to support my position.Now,Allen, its good that you're trying to be less pompous.Still, even in "nice" mode,you tend to beawfully haughty.I don't begrudge you your opinions,but saying someone is "not a beekeeper", based on your own criteria,is a bit much.Yes, I only have 5-6 hives.I do what I can within reason and budget to make sure they survive & stay healthy.I was taught beekeeping by a gentleman who knew more about common-sense beekeeping than any techno-twit full of graphs, charts & numbers.It will be a sad day when those of us who keep (yes,KEEP) bees spend all our time treating this as a business not a hobby.This does'nt mean I don't care, it just means that I have'nt the resources to invest in grandly expensive treatment schemes. I have a few chickens too, but I'm not a poultry farmer.Also, Allen, I think you overlooked the most important point, I never asked for anything but information from others who had used so called "mite-resistant" bees.Since you must not have, no input from you was needed or appreciated.It is not my intention to start flame wars here, I wish only to get information and if possible pass it on to others. Mike "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: beedances to what music? > I imagine I am like most beekeepers in enjoying the contented buzz >of the busy beeyard. However, I must admit that I also frequently blast the >truck stereo when I'm working the yards (I like world beat music) and put a >little tropical rhythm to the movement of my hive tool. I've never noticed >any change in the bees, and indeed I had always thought that bees can't >detect sound. Before embarassing myself to this group, I thought I better >check this. This is the only reference to sound in my copy of "The Hive and >the Honey Bee" (a well used book but my copy is 25 years old now): > "Some insects respond to sound by the vibration of sensory hairs. We >have no definite information on the hearing powers of bees, and the bee has >no known auditory organs." >>From Roger Morse's "complete guide to Beekeeping" I found this: > "So far as is known, honeybees do not use sound as a method of >communication and no sound receptors are found anywhere on their bodies; >however, honeybees do detect vibrations and respond to them, presumably >through organs on their feet. Such vibrations are sometimes referred to in >the literature as "substrate-born sound". > My copy of that book is also very old, and I am wondering whether any >recent work has found "hearing" in bees. If bees don't hear, then what is >the function of piping in emerging queens? How do they produce that sound? >The bees may not use sound to communicate amongst themselves, but they >certainly use it (unwittingly) to communicate with me. Most beekeepers can >probably extract some useful information from the "buzz" of the hive. Maybe >the experimenters just weren't playing the right music! > >Stan Sandler Milk and Honey Farm > Stan: I have heard a very high-pitched sound coming from the queen cages when we have imported them in the spring. It has been my idea that this is coming from the queen, but what the message is, I cannot say. There is a distinct odor to the queen, noticeable in the cage, and also in the colony when opened. Does anyone know if the pheromones she uses to control the hive have an odor? Variations do occur in the intensity and pitch of the sounds mentioned. Perhaps there is also variation in quantity, density etc of the chemicals (?) in the pheromone. As often before, I wish I knew more. There are so many interesting, but unanswered, questions. Regards Eunice W. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:10:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Varroa In-Reply-To: <199602190725.HAA06460@beta.aladdin.co.uk> On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Sid Pullinger wrote: > So far it has behaved in a most irrational fashion in that it is killing its > host. No self-respecting parasite should do this because it is in effect > committing suicide. No doubt in time our bees will develop resistance, Last year I was discussing this with someone at Cornell whos expertise is host/parisite relationships. He said this is typical when a parisite moves onto a new host specie. The new host has not devoloped mechanisims to combat the new problem and there are many fatalities. Natural selection then begins in two directions. Obviously the most suseptable hosts are selected out. Also, the most virulent parisites are selected out because they kill their host and therefore themselves. So in time we end up with more resistant hosts and less virulent parisites. Eventually a balance is reached and they can live together.> bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:52:17 -0400 Reply-To: RICHARD J ALBERT Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: UNITE Project N.B. Education N.-B. From: richard albert Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued >>>I enjoy Allen's comments. If you do not, then you need not read them. >>> >>>Eric >>> >> >>Eric, >> >> From what I've heard from many others, you seem to be in the minority. > >Laura > >I'd like to add my "minority" voice to Erics. >It the most recent exchanges, none of the unpleasantness has come from Allan. >Thought, that since you're hearing from others---you might as well hear from >me too. > >...Stuart Laura, I especially look forward to Allen's submissions. They are generally full of vital and challenging information that are a big encouragement to this novice beekeeper. I hope that you will eventually see beyond his rather direct manner to a personality that seeks to exhort others to do better. Exhortations are confused as rejections by some pesonalities. Yet they are not. They are meant to encourage and assist. Richard Albert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:23:32 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Regarding Allen,comments & flames.... In-Reply-To: Hi , I like people. All people that has not commited a bad crime. This list is a wonderful tool. We don't need a line in the sand , with the good on one side and the bad on the other. We don't do the judging anyway.Lets give one another some room to make a mistake in our eyes. I don't like to have someone try to put me down.But it is only there opinion. I was a supervisor and manager for 13 years before I retired. I have been around the block. We should grab the positive and forget the negative. Remember that one should evaluate the negative , because there could be some positive in it. I started up a Quality Circle, it was the first group in the shipyard and we had to learn different ways to solve problems.There were 12,000 workers in the shipyard and I had 10 in my group.We found out over time that even something that sounded stupid at first could lead us to a positive answer. Lets work on all the positive that this list can do for us. You can't belive how much info that I have been getting on Bee Viruses.We need to get our energy together and get that mite with people who have the education. I think we all have a lot to learn about bees. They are changing, and we are changing the way we keep them.Lets focus on the problem and not the people. I have a (D) on my keyboard and I have used it when I read something that has no value to me.Remember that if your a large outfit or one hive in the backyard ,the HONEYBEE needs our attention and help to get thru Varroa and even more. I love my bees and People Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Re: Regarding Allen,comments & flames.... > Lets work on all the positive that this list can do for us. You can't >belive how much info that I have been getting on Bee Viruses.We need to >get our energy together and get that mite with people who have the >education. I think we all have a lot to learn about bees. They are >changing, and we are changing the way we keep them.Lets focus on the >problem and not the people. First of all, we need to start by understanding that not one beekeeper in this world is perfect. Some would have us believe that they have never lost a single bee in their hobby or career. We need to have compassion for other beekeepers and their problems. We don't need to berate each other and accuse others of not being beekeepers because they learned their lessons the hard way. I'd bet anything that the person that thinks others aren't beekeepers doesn't live up to those lofty standards either. I have learned a lot from this list. Unfortunately, I have gotten some negative replies from some. As Mr. High stated, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. I enjoy reading everyone else's responses, which are for the most part, filled with a lot of good beekeeping information. Let's educate each other, not knock each other down. L. A. Downey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:43:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Co-op breeding In-Reply-To: On Sun, 18 Feb 1996, Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > This is starting to sound good folks. The mountain is tall but with many > the task will be completed.The Experts will tell you of the problems and It's the height of the mountain I am concerned with. Mike and I have spent the past 3 yrs crash learning queen breeding, spent an enormous amout of money (for us anyway) and are just now starting to reap benefits. The object of our program is tracheal mite resistance. The only reason we have been able to make the progress we have is because there are not too many genes involved with what we are selecting for. Now I've been reading all I can about varroa resistance. There are many more characteristics (more genes to select for) needed to accomplish that goal. That means many more tests, many more selections will be needed. And its not just one or two super queens that we need. To establish a program that would have an impact on how we keep bees, 30-50 lines need to be identified. I cannot imagine how an individual or even a large queen producer could fund such a project. How can it be funded? Can we find enough competant queen producers, researchers, and supporting beekeepers that are willing to work together? Wish I had some good ideas. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:33:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Feb 1996 to 18 Feb 1996 Re. Mite Resistant Beekeepers. With some dismay, I have followed this exchange of opinions among the various parties about the demise of Mike's colonies and Allen Dick's response. As extension specialist and regulator, a major part of my daily work deals with offering producers information and advise on how to deal with diseases and pests, including parasitic mites. After reading Mike's initial e.mail message, I had this momentary negative response by thinking; My gosh, the tell tale signs are right there! It is so overwhelmingly likely that your colonies succumbed to Varroa, why even speculate? Get testing and treat! Plain and simple! But then (not knowing Mike, where you are located) I thought this beekeeper may be in an area where Varroa has not been around for long and where its impact has not been felt yet. As such you had not been confronted yet (at least knowingly) to the true severity of the Varroa pest. As beekeepers in many parts of North America can attest (and Allen, this does not include Swalwell in central Alberta yet, where Varroa has so far been absent or at very low levels), the correct application and timing of mite controls can somtime still lead to serious colony losses! The fact Mike, that you as a keeper of bees, experienced a massive loss due to Varroa has not made you any less of a beekeeper! The whole issue of dealing with Varroa successfully (and the addition of HBTM for good measure), is much more complex than just detecting and applying controls. Many beekeepers come to recognize that they have to 'unlearn' some longheld practices and that now every management step has to be carefully considered. Also, areas heavily infested with Varroa (and especially where there are large numbers of small-time beekeepers), successful controls are devilishly difficult and costly because of very rapid re-infestations. I believe that many beekeepers have been suffering massive losses because of re-infestation, not because they didn't apply controls. And this 'failure' has not been limited to small beekeepers but very large ones as well. **Please do not misinterpret my use of the term 'small-time beekeepers'. The implication is that an infested area where the total colony population is operated by a large beekeeper population, average ownership of numbers of colonies is low. In such area, dissemination of information about mite control is more challenging, and the synchronization of mite control applications much more difficult to accomplish.** To answer Mike's original question about his colony losses, I can provide you with some factsheets about mite control that may be of help to you. Just e.mail direct. I suggest that all who contribute to the list, 'measure' and evaluate your e.mail message and response BEFORE sending it off. Having unrestricted access to this marvelous technology of instant communication does not mean we have no responsibility in the manner we communicate! If the list degenerates into an exchange of accusatory and patronizing epistles, I and may others will unsubscribe mighty quickly! Paul van Westendorp pvanwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:20:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Re: Pollen Cakes Hi Tim, Did you ever get any replies to your question about pollen cakes? If so, I'd be interested in them if you wouldn't mind forwarding them to me. I have the very same question, but thought instead of duplicating your question, I'd ask of your results first. Thanks. :) Laura Downey (corvi29@smart.net) At 05:17 PM 2/14/96 -0500, you wrote: > In the May 1995 issue of "American Bee Journal", there is an article >about the use of pollen cakes to "Jump Start Your Bees" (written by Steve >Taber). > > The formula given in that article was: 3 parts brewers yeast to 1 part >pollen by weight mixed with a suger syrup of 2 parts suger to 1 part >water. Twice as much syrup by weight is added to the pollen mixture. Add >1 teaspoon of "TM-25" for each 25 lb. of the mixture. > > My question is : Is this fed in addition to or in place of a standard >extender patty? It seems to me that the dose of Terramycin is to small to >be effective, if used in place of extender patties. > > Any comments or suggestions about this topic would be helpful. > > Thanks > > Tim Damon, Ann Arbor,MI > timd@arbornet.org > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:06:30 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Co-op breeding In-Reply-To: On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Vince Coppola wrote: > On Sun, 18 Feb 1996, Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > > > This is starting to sound good folks. The mountain is tall but with many > > the task will be completed.The Experts will tell you of the problems and > > It's the height of the mountain I am concerned with. Mike and I have > spent the past 3 yrs crash learning queen breeding, spent an enormous > amout of money (for us anyway) and are just now starting to reap benefits. > The object of our program is tracheal mite resistance. The only reason we > have been able to make the progress we have is because there are not too > many genes involved with what we are selecting for. > > Now I've been reading all I can about varroa resistance. There are many > more characteristics (more genes to select for) needed to accomplish > that goal. That means many more tests, many more selections will be needed. > And its not just one or two super queens that we need. To establish a program > that would have an impact on how we keep bees, 30-50 lines need to be > identified. > > I cannot imagine how an individual or even a large queen producer could > fund such a project. How can it be funded? Can we find enough competant > queen producers, researchers, and supporting beekeepers that are willing > to work together? Wish I had some good ideas. > Vince, You have brought up some very good points. We can not expect the beekeepers to pay for the research directly.We need to use there knowledge as beekeepers to keep some bees and evaluate them for the project. I'm just putting out some ideas and I know in the end that with positive brain storming we can help the researchers. Sue Cobey is working with some breeders in California on the New World Carniolan project. It takes money and that is a problem if you don't have the resolve to get it. All beekeepers that love Honeybees need to be together and show the real value of beekeeping. I had some people telling me how much money all these beekeepers were getting as hand outs. My answer was,you take that so called hand out money in one hand and let the beekeepers stay home with there bees for one year and see how much that will cost you. No more almonds..The money can be had it just depends on how much varroa and T mite costs and when Apistan will not work.We should not put chemicals in our hives! Promote that and I bet we would get plenty of help. I know, I sell an 8 oz. hex jar of high mountain fireweed honey for $ 4.00 each.The Dr.s will ask if I'm using any antibiotics.I will run 12 to 20 hives that are new and clean each year. We have beekeepers that are all over the spectrum of work in this world.We need to want to win and have it so someone can have a hive of bees in there back yard and not worry how many chemicals they have to put in them to keep them alive. Over time nature will do that anyway. I just want to help speed up the process. Breeding takes time.The more we have working together the faster we get to the finish line. We need help and input. I will see how high the mountain will be to get some money.We have to know how big of a bee to put on the table. Best Wishes Roy TEAMS WIN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:27:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Pollen cakes and e-mail script To all, Please excuse a couple of today's posts that have been sent to the entire list as opposed to the individual intended. I did not intend for them to go to the whole list. It appears that my e-mail script needs editing... L. A. Downey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:38:54 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dan Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Unnecessary condenscension At 03:22 PM 2/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >***To all on the list - here is an example of the unnecessary condenscension >by ***a certain Allen Dick. I don't know how many of you can learn anything >***about beekeeping from an individual like this, but I certainly don't. I >am ***sure this is exactly what Mike L. High, Sr. was referring to in his >e-mail. Why don't you take this outside of the BEE-L list? It doesn't belong here. OK? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Z. Johnson "You Can Take Good Pictures Anywhere No Homepage Photojournalist Even New Jersey" Just Bees & danz@voiceneet.com -Elliott Erwitt Beer A Brewing ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:11:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: Re: Varroa >On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Vince Coppola wrote: > >Last year I was discussing this with someone at Cornell whos expertise is >host/parisite relationships. He said this is typical when a parisite >moves onto a new host specie. The new host has not devoloped mechanisims >to combat the new problem and there are many fatalities. Natural selection >then begins in two directions. Obviously the most suseptable hosts are >selected out. Also, the most virulent parisites are selected out because >they kill their host and therefore themselves. So in time we end up with >more resistant hosts and less virulent parisites. Eventually a balance >is reached and they can live together.> > The problem is that we interfere greatly with this natural process by treating our colonies! We cannot find out the resistant colonies and we prevent the nastier varroas from committing suicide. Worst, the varroas that survive the treatments are the most resistant to the pesticides! Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@login.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Mite resistant bees Beekeepers who think they may have a naturally varroa resistant colony should contact Bob Danka at RDANKA@ASRR.ARSUSDA.GOV for information about USDA's new program to collect resistant stock from around the country. Larry Connor LJCONNOR@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:42:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: Re: Co-op breeding >On Sun, 18 Feb 1996, Vince Coppola wrote: >It's the height of the mountain I am concerned with. Mike and I have >spent the past 3 yrs crash learning queen breeding, spent an enormous >amout of money (for us anyway) and are just now starting to reap benefits. >The object of our program is tracheal mite resistance. The only reason we >have been able to make the progress we have is because there are not too >many genes involved with what we are selecting for. > >Now I've been reading all I can about varroa resistance. There are many >more characteristics (more genes to select for) needed to accomplish >that goal. That means many more tests, many more selections will be needed. >And its not just one or two super queens that we need. To establish a program >that would have an impact on how we keep bees, 30-50 lines need to be >identified. > >I cannot imagine how an individual or even a large queen producer could >fund such a project. How can it be funded? Can we find enough competant >queen producers, researchers, and supporting beekeepers that are willing >to work together? Wish I had some good ideas. > Yes cooperative breeding is needed indeed? A lot of breeding resources need to be focused on developing resistance. One succesful program is not sufficient. The ideal situation would be to breed resistance in all the good local stocks that are available on earth. PRESERVING THE GENETIC DIVERSITY IS A MUST. We are starting a project here in Quebec. Deschambault Research Station, two commercial breeders (including myself) and Club Api will be involved. Let us keep in touch. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@login.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:35:28 +0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Conrad Sigona Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers > I hope you - and others - find this useful. I spent two and a half > hours trying to say it nicely. How did I do? > > I know it still could be construed as being a little abrupt, and I > apologise in advance. Permit me, as my first posting in BEE-L, to say that I am most grateful for Mr. Allen's postings. He may be a little more brusque than most, but that's just his nature and, for the most part, I've grown used to his style. There are a few others around whose style takes a little getting used to also and I'm grateful to them also. BEE-L is not meant to be a mutual admiration society. It exists to exchange ideas and information. My grandfather was gruff but a fountain of knowledge. To those who didn't know him, he may have sounded outright mean, but I knew better. Mr. Allen says above that he spent 2.5 hours trying to be nice. My two cents is that I'd prefer him to spit out information off-the-cuff rather than to compose fewer but more carefully worded responses. If he's going to spend 2.5 hours writing, let's have it be action-packed. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 00:12:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Gentile Subject: Re: Mite Resistant Beekeepers At 10:40 AM 2/18/96 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Mike: > >I appreciate your reply to my comment questioning whether or not you >are (still) a beekeeper. I understood from your post that you have >no bees due to self-admitted neglect. > >Don't get me wrong. I am very sorry for your loss, and share your >wish for mite-proof bees. > >I think the question of who can honestly think of himself and call >himself a beekeeper these days does need examination and that's why >I commented on the list. I think the rules have changed without many >of us noticing. > >It might help to realise that your 100% loss is a direct result of >thinking that you still qualify as a beekeeper. Events have proved >you wrong. > >The implication seemed to be that it is somehow the bees' fault (not >being mite resistant) that they are all dead. Not so. Bees >properly kept will still survive - even today. We have the tools. > >At this very moment my son (24, BA in Philosophy) is on his way (700 >miles each way) to an intensive Bee Masters course. He has kept his >own bees (24 hives - he usually beats my average) and worked in a >large commercial outfit since he was ten, but still is not really >(100%) a beekeeper. You might think this is a harsh judgement, but >it is the truth and he knows it. That's why he's investing the time >and effort to learn - and to write the exam. > >I'm personally signed up for the 3 day disease and mite clinic >presented in Edmonton by our province as well as another course much >farther away. I have also budgetted $10,000 for mite detection and >control this year. > >If you have been allowing your hives to collapse with varroa, I pity >your neighbours who are (hopefully) doing everything right. > >Why not get with the program? It's not *that* tough. > >The ante for calling yourself a beekeeper has been raised. Mites are >here. There are no mite-proof honeybees. Even *mite-resistant* bees >need an insightful and competant beekeeper who is prepared to use >controls as indictated. There is no magic bullet. You have to think >and observe and manage - and raise your sights. > >If you don't - no matter what you wish - you are not a beekeeper >anymore because you simply can't keep bees alive - and that is the >*minimum* standard. > >------------------------------- > >P.S. > >I hope you - and others - find this useful. I spent two and a half >hours trying to say it nicely. How did I do? > >I know it still could be construed as being a little abrupt, and I >apologise in advance. > > Your two and a half hours were wasted. You still cannot hide your pompous and arrogant attitude, Mr. Dick. As usual your posting amounted to nothing more than your self-agrandization. Who's rules concerning beekeepers have changed, yours? Who cares? Pete ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:14:52 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: nokrian rivka Subject: size of flower Hello Bee-Liners, I'm doing my research on honeybees visitation to melon (muskmelon) flowers. I am looking for some reference on the ability of bees to discriminate between flowers based on the size only. Any ideas on the subject will be welcomed as well. Thank you in advance, Rivka. Please forward your answers directly to me: E-mail: rebeca@post.tau.ac.il turtle mail: Rivka Nokrian Dept. of Botany, Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv 69 978 Tel Aviv ISRAEL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 07:09:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: NBnet - New Brunswick's Regional Network 1-800-561-4459 From: Nancy C Hamilton Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Feb 1996 to 18 Feb 1996 I lurk a lot and disapprove of this kind of chatter ('me too' posts).but. if there IS a count going on..., Allen Dick posts are one of the reasons I still subscribe.(Thank-you, Allen Dick.) I've discovered that those who have something worth saying don't always say it in a manner I'm expecting. Ain't life grand? Can we please move on? Nancy Hamilton prism@nbnet.nb.ca New Brunswick, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 07:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Scott Camazine Subject: Post Doctoral Research Hi Rivka: I was just checking back to see if you received the email message I sent last week with regard to you message on the Bee list ------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Camazine Department of Entomology Penn State University 501 ASI Building University Park, PA 16802 814-863-1854 (office) 814-865-3048 (FAX) SMC14@psu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ From: Discussion of Bee Biology on Tue, Feb 13, 1996 9:28 AM Subject: Post Doctoral Research To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L Hello, I would like to mail this message again. Please if anyone might know of any available position, I would appreciate receiving the info. Thanks, Rivka I'm a Ph.D. student in the field of Pollination Ecology at Tel Aviv University in ISRAEL. My current research is on melon (Cucumis melo) pollination under greenhouse conditions, under the supervision of Prof. Dan Eisikowitch. The research fields are located in the Arava valley, at the south of Israel, in a desert area. I have been working on various issues concerning pollination problems inside the greenhouses, studying both hive functioning and plants reactions to environmental constraints. Some of the issues I was working on recently deal with the question of irrigation and it's effect on nectar secretion and thereby on pollinator activity. One other aspect of greenhouse pollination is the question whether there is enough reward produced, to support the hive placed next to the greenhouse. Some of the results and conclusions in my research have already been adopted by the farmers and are presently practiced by them. My fields of interest are wide and include Pollination Ecology, Vegetation Dynamics as well as Plant Systematics and Evolution. I could be available for work as of January 1997. Languages: I speak, read and write English (fluently) and Spanish (pretty well). I also read and speak a little Italian and French. Of course I speak, read and write Hebrew (mother tongue). Referees: Prof. Dan Eisikowitch / Department of Botany / Tel Aviv University / Ramat Aviv / 69978 Tel Aviv / ISRAEL At the moment on Sabbatical leave at: Department of Horticulture University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602, USA Prof. C.C. Heyn / Department of Evolution, Systematics and Ecology Hebrew University / Givat Ram / 91904 Jerusalem / ISRAEL Prof. Amots Dafni / Institute of Evolution / Haifa University Haifa / ISRAEL E-mail: rabi306@haifauvm.bitnet.ac.il Please forward any information or suggestions to: Rivka Nokrian Department of Botany George S. Wise Faculty of Life Sciences Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv 69978 Tel Aviv ISRAEL E-mail: rebeca@post.tau.ac.il Thank you all, Rivka ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:32:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: di5 Subject: Re: size of flower In-Reply-To: Moller, A. P., and M. Eriksson. 1995. Pollinator preference for symmetrical flowers and sexual selection in plants. Oikos 73:15-22. This paper has some evidence that flower visitors can detect differences in flower size within a species, and that they prefer the larger ones. Dr. David W. Inouye Dept. of Zoology, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 E-mail: di5@umail.umd.edu Phone: 301-405-6946 FAX: 301-314-9358 http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/LFSC/.FacultyStaff/dinouye ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:27:14 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued > > > >I enjoy Allen's comments. If you do not, then you need not read them. > > > >Eric > > > > Eric, > > From what I've heard from many others, you seem to be in the minority. > > L. A. Downey I find that hard to believe. However, there is no requirement that all the messaged be read. There are some threads that I do not read and there are some writers that I do not read. It's no big deal to avoid those whose style or opinion you do not care for. Rather than complain about a message, simply stop reading them. What the heck ---- I read this list for fun and some education. Let's not forget the fun part. Eric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:05:08 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Scott Chaplin Subject: Bee Subsidies Hello, I am with a non-profit organization in Colorado. We are considering raising bees on some land which we want to put into a trust to prevent it from being developed. Part of our task is to keep the land in agricultural production. I have "surfed" the net and have found several very useful resources on beekeeping, but have not been able to answer a few questions. If anyone can help me with these questions I would greatly appreciate it. 1) Is beekeeping considered an official agricultural activity? 2) Are there agricultural subsidies or other forms of government assistance available to beekeepers? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:09:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Mite Resistance Morty Lipton wrote >Like myself, two of the group have given up. Of the two remaining >locations only two strong hives remain and one of these were Buckfasts. >This spring we have all decided to restrict our colonies to the >Buckfasts. We will all use Apistan as prescribed but with my colonies I >plan on taking a chance on not using either menthol or terramycin I think it only fair to bring this to your attention, we all seem to be using the term 'Buckfast' too easily. My information tells me that there has been no importation of 'Buckfast' into the US for many years, with my knowledge of bee breeding and the gradual loss of purity I would suggest they cannot be called that anymore. It is highly unlikely that the traits you are looking for are still there. Buckfast Abbey have a licensing policy, and very strict controls of quality. To my knowledge there is no licensing agreement between Buckfast and the U.S.A. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Flames of wrath!! Enough please. We have been away for the last few days, at a beekeeps convention in Quebec. We got home today to be greeted by 72 pieces of e-mail, a large chunk of which dealt with the "flames of wrath" Please, please can we get back to the job in hand. Consider it a 'newbie's' baptism of fire. It would appear that on this list it is a fact of life!!! While at the show I met a company that wants to buy *clean* propolis. They are prepared to pay $40US per lb, is that a good price? I have never dealt, so don't know! If anyone wants more info please e-mail direct. Regards Dave...... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:37:08 +22324924 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Re: Mite Resistance In-Reply-To: <199602202109.QAA26541@segwun.muskoka.net> from "David Eyre" at Feb 20, 96 04:09:15 pm David Eyre, (you), wrote: > I think it only fair to bring this to your attention, we all seem to be > using the term 'Buckfast' too easily. My information tells me that there has > been no importation of 'Buckfast' into the US for many years, with my > knowledge of bee breeding and the gradual loss of purity I would suggest > they cannot be called that anymore. It is highly unlikely that the traits Brother Adam chose the Weavers because he felt them to be proficient at maintaining the stock. Last I talked to Roy Weaver, he'd received semen from Buckfst Abbey in 1993 or so. Adam -- _________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:56:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Gentile Subject: Re: Bee Subsidies At 11:05 AM 2/20/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hello, > >I am with a non-profit organization in Colorado. We are considering >raising bees on some land which we want to put into a trust to prevent it >from being developed. Part of our task is to keep the land in agricultural >production. > >I have "surfed" the net and have found several very useful resources on >beekeeping, but have not been able to answer a few questions. If anyone >can help me with these questions I would greatly appreciate it. > > >1) Is beekeeping considered an official agricultural activity? > >2) Are there agricultural subsidies or other forms of government >assistance available to beekeepers? > > I can tell you that in New Jersey anyone who owns five or more acres of land can receive a substantial property tax break if the land is used for agricultural pursuits. One of the recongnized activities is beekeeping. The number of hives is of no consequence. The state considers you a beekeeper if you can produce an income of at least $200.00 from your bees on the five acres. If you can do this with just one hive on five acres, you're a beekeeper in the eyes of the state and you get your tax break. Hope this helps. Pete ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson" Subject: Re: Mite Resistance >I think it only fair to bring this to your attention, we all seem to be >using the term 'Buckfast' too easily. My information tells me that there has >been no importation of 'Buckfast' into the US for many years, with my >knowledge of bee breeding and the gradual loss of purity I would suggest >they cannot be called that anymore. It is highly unlikely that the traits >you are looking for are still there. Buckfast Abbey have a licensing policy, >and very strict controls of quality. To my knowledge there is no licensing >agreement between Buckfast and the U.S.A. According to "KEEPING BEES" by John Vivian, he writes: Native English brown bees were crossed with Italians, and used by the bamous beekeeper Brother Adam and confreres fo Buckfast Abbey to save the British bee industry from acarine disease in the early decades of this century. This vari-colored bee was bred for superior honey production, gentleness, a compact brood nest, and good wintering on limited stores. Their sale is lecensed in the USA only to Weaver Apiaries, Inc. of Navasota, Texas. Brother Adam's order gets a royalty on each queen sold. Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA It's a great place to BEE! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Mites, Apistan, chemicals --=====================_824871555==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To all on the list, I have attached two files to this e-mail. This is a part of a conversation that someone is having on a bulletin board about dealing with mites. Unless he lives in a mite-free area, I do not understand how he is able to keep bees. The reason I am circulating these messages is that I'd like for others to realize what some people think about mite control. I personally believe in using what we have to prevent mites from destroying our bees until something better comes along. I can't and wont allow my bees to perish from mite infestation. Laura (corvi29@smart.net) --=====================_824871555==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If the beekeeping industry and those of us who are hobbiest keep flooding our hives with chemicals to control the mites we are destroying our love for bees and this great industry of beekeeping as we know it. Why the journals and the major beekeeping supply companies push this stuff down our throats amazes me. We of all groups should know that using an insecticide to kill an very primitive species of mite only causes that mite to become resistant in a very short period of time causing us to use ever stronger chemical combatants, all to the glee of the chemical industry. When will we ever learn that the only way to fight this type of problem is to breed and to maintain our colonies the way we should. We should be encouraging anyone that has the time it takes to breed bees that show strong resistance and let those that do not die. We should tap into the genetic pool of feral colonies and use their strength to help fight this on going problem that costs us so much. I hope more will start speaking up on this matter. If your one that does not understand the problem chemicals cause go the the library and read read read. Its all there. We must not taint that most precious commodity, honey for all the tea in China!!!! --=====================_824871555==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those on this board that think that treating mites with Apistan is correct are really making a long term mistake. No one including myself likes to have hives die and all the headache that causes. I have been a beekeeper since age thirteen and I can feel for all who have faced this problem and other such as AFB. But when dealing with mites the answer is not one of eradication nor developing resistance bees. Both creatures have lived together for centuries. The answer lies with developing natural products that can kill mites and not hurt bees or contanminate honey. Resistant bees are those that seem to have a better abiltiy to cope with infestation and not succumb to its affect. Being better stewards of our bees can help tremendously with keeping and even building reistance to mite attack. Keep the pollen stores up at all times. This gives the bees the neccessary protein to handle the infestation and cope with the virus infections that go along with these mites. We must not be lead down that path of chemical warfare on mites because we will loose in the long run. To use chemicals with our bees is wrong and should be banned! --=====================_824871555==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 20:05:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Mite resistant swarm queens Since we are now discussing how to develop mite-resistant queens, I have a proposal that any beekeeper with some extra equipment can try: When you catch a feral swarm this year, do not requeen it, and do not treat it for mites (beyond surveying to see if mites are present). The theory I'm trying to test is that if a feral colony is strong enough to swarm in this day and age, it must have at least some resistance to mites. Even though probably 9 out of 10 of these swarm colonies will end up dying from mites within a year or two, I suspect we will find enough successful colonies to make the effort worthwhile. Moreover, this is something even small-timers like myself can try. And if the colony dies, you will still end up with a bunch of drawn frames, so the effort will not be without some benefit to you. How to tell a feral swarm from one out of your neighbor's hives? Knowing the territory (where are your neighbor's hives) helps, and you can check the swarm's queen to see if she's marked. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 21:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MADELETNE@BNK1.BNKST.EDU We're a public garden/environmental education institution looking for a good design for an indoor bee observation hive. If anyone has any designs or knows of good sources, please contact me. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 21:57:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris tings Attention American Beekeepers! >From the Delmarva Farmer, February 20, 1996 (Easton, Md.) "Bad Timing" "The Northeast's Colleges of Agriculture at the Land Grant Universities - Penn State, Rutgers, the University of Delaware, the University of Maryland included - are organizing a one-day 'listening session' to ask ag producers and ag product consumers for advise on future research and Extension programs. It is scheduled for April 12." "The contact for the meeting is Dr. Davd MacKenzie, executive director of the Northeastern Regional Association of State Ag Experiment Station Directors. He is at 301-405-4531 in College Park, Md." "Dr. Mackenzie had better pray for rain. Getting farmers to an all-day think-tank session in a Philadelphia hotel on a sunny day in mid-April will be like pulling a sleigh in mud." According to Dr. MacKenzie, the Kellogg Foundation is providing funding for meetings in every extension region around the country. They are seeking nominees for attendees at these meetings. They are looking for leaders in the agriculture industry. Nominations (including self-nominations) can be made by contacting your Executive Director of your State Extension Association. This may be beekeepers' opportunity to defend extension support for beekeeping, which has been under attack for years. Failing to appear may be interpreted as there being no need for extension support for apiculture and pollination. Please bring this to the attention of your State Beekeeping leaders so that they may attend the meetings. Regards, David Morris Laurel, Md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:45:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: CODE Subject: indoor bee observation you might try contacting the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto, they have had an open bee hive, connected to the outside for some time. Don't know any names there, or the address, but it might be a place to start. Cheers! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Mite Resistance In a message dated 96-02-20 15:59:18 EST, David Eyre writes: >I think it only fair to bring this to your attention, we all seem to be >using the term 'Buckfast' too easily. My information tells me that there has >been no importation of 'Buckfast' into the US for many years, with my >knowledge of bee breeding and the gradual loss of purity I would suggest >they cannot be called that anymore. It is highly unlikely that the traits >you are looking for are still there. Buckfast Abbey have a licensing policy, >and very strict controls of quality. To my knowledge there is no licensing >agreement between Buckfast and the U.S.A. > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* Don't let the Weavers in Texas hear you say that. Last I heard they have a license. I understand they pay $1 to Buckfast Abbey for every queen sold. I have also have read that drone semen is supplied to maintain the stock. Granted, that is not the same as a mated queen, but it still is a genetic transfer. When I had the opportunity to meet Br. Adam in 1993, I asked about the Weavers and he indicated they still maintained the Buckfast strain. Regards, David Morris Laurel, Md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 23:14:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson" >We're a public garden/environmental education institution looking >for a good design for an indoor bee observation hive. If anyone has >any designs or knows of good sources, please contact me. Thanks. > > An observation hive can BEE ordered from: Walter T. Kelley Co., Inc. PO Box 240 Clarkson, KY 42726-0240 Phone: (502) 242-2012 Sean Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA It's a great place to BEE! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:22:21 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Buckfast Queens The following is a comment I wrote a fellow some time ago on the "sci.agriculture.beekeeping" newsgroup: > Buckfast from Weaver Apiaries. Has anyone had >any experience with these queens? Kevin, I have used the Weaver's Buckfast queen for the last four years and have [overall] been pretty happy with their perfor- mance. I've made a trip down to Navasota (I live in Dallas) to pickup my queens. So I've seen their operation. I've also been to England (to Buckfast Abbey) and have met Brother Adam. I don't claim to be an expert on the Buckfast queens but I'll offer my observations. The Weavers offer for sale a "Texas" version of the Buck- fast queens. Meaning that their queens are naturally bread. The only queens that are direct stock from Buckfast are their own breeder queens. Now of course they claim (and probably so) that by saturating an area with Buckfast drones and raising Buckfast virgin queens, that you're getting a "Buckfast" queen. This is a common breeding pratice. However I know that they also raise a strain of Itilian bees also in the same area. Also, I am not familiar with how often they replenish their gene pool with imported Buckfast semen. I have read and belive it is beneficial to not always buy your queens from the same supplier (year in & year out). And while I like the Buckfast, you may have noticed a posting from me looking for a Canadian supplier of Buckfast. The Weavers are the only US supplier. I believe that to maintain a vigorous strain of Buckfast bees, it is now time for me to purchase the Buckfast line from a different breeder. The only complaint that I've heard from people who have bought the Weaver's Buckfast queens, is that its very hard to get a colony of bees to accept their queens. And I have lost a Buckfast queen myself by trying to introduce her to a "full strength" colony. I would recommend that you only use their Buckfast queens to start off a new colony (as in a split, like you talked about). If you use a Nuc box and have a couple of frames of brood and a couple of frames of honey (& maybe even feed them some sugar syrup) then you should be able to put a Buckfast queen in and have the bees accept her. I've even left the cork in the queen cage for two or three days while the Nuc bees get use to her scent. And then pulled out the cork and let the bees eat out the candy plug over the next three or four days. This technique extended the time that she is protected from the hive bees (and it seemed to help). Good luck, BusyKnight Dallas, TX BusyKnight busykngt@airmail.net ICBM INcode:N:32.45'W:96.45' Republic of Texas G.E. - We Bring Good Things to Life And a leading manufacturer of Thermonuclear Bombs. Life, we make it Glow in the Dark! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:45:00 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Bee "language" hypothesis? The message that follows deals with the Fred Dyer survey over the SOCINSCT network (how many agreed with his statement of the bee "language" hypothesis), Julian O'Dea's retort, and Thomas Culliney's earlier message on the subject. ******** Recent input permits me to clarify some points about the bee language controversy --- as requested directly to me by several subscribers to one or another of the networks currently involved in that topic. In my contribution of 31 January, I had written: "A honey bee dance language hypothesis no longer seems to exist." I had also stated: "The disparate views aired during this Internet exchange indicate quite clearly that consensus no longer exists..." ******** On 12 February, Fred Dyer reported on a survey he had conducted over the SOCINSCT network: "Of about 262 subscribers to the list, only 26 replied, including me.... He had asked how many subscribers agreed with his statement, as follows: "Main question: Honey bee recruits can use the directional and distance information contained in the dances of foragers TO BIAS their search for food." (emphasis mine) The results: "AGREE: 26 --- DISAGREE: 0" Fred concluded, "I guess there is a consensus after all..." ******** Julian O'Dea responded immediately (12 February) with a cogent comment: "I remember seeing the results of a similar opinion survey on a scientific issue. [The] last question was, 'Do you think these kinds of opinion surveys are of any value in science?' to which there was a 100% answer, NO." I might ask: Should one optimistically view the glass as one-tenth full (26 positive opinions out of 262) --- or realistically as nine-tenths empty? And: With our present anonymous review system still in place, would any wise person willingly vote openly against an opinion held by even 26 potential reviewers of manuscripts and grant proposals? A double-blind approach in such a survey would be the least we should expect. ******** Earlier (1 February) Thomas Culliney provided six paragraphs of quotations from a von Frisch 1962 August SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN article, information which clearly indicates that von Frisch knew exactly what he meant by his hypothesis. He did not include the first two sentences of that von Frisch article; they read as follows: "For almost two decades my colleagues and I have been studying one of the most remarkable systems of communication that nature has evolved. This is the 'language' of bees: the dancing movements by which forager bees direct their hivemates, WITH GREAT PRECISION, to a source of food" (emphasis mine). Seven years after his concise hypothesis had failed a double controlled test (Ch. 9 in our book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY) and five years after it had failed a strong inference test (Ch. 10 in our book), von Frisch wrote (SCIENCE, 23 August 1974): "To sum up, this and preceding experiments taught us that the information on the direction and distance of the goal WAS ADHERED TO WITH ASTONISHING ACCURACY..." (emphasis mine). ******** I hope by now that my earlier statement --- any consensus on exactly what we should expect when we experiment with honey bee recruitment to food sources no longer seems to exist. I certainly did not mean that one could not find a score of individuals who would vote in support of a vague and scientifically untestable statement of a formerly concise hypothesis. Are we to have sun compass orientation, magnetic compass orientation, and cognitive maps that can be used by searching bees, if the original von Frisch "with great precision" conviction is not true? What would von Frisch think of this remarkable retrenchment? ******** ******** An aside: For those who responded to my offer to mail "a revealing critique" of the ocelli-blinded misdirection experiments, please have patience. All last week I was on a research trip to Santa Cruz Island (studying the natural spread of parasitic varroa mites among feral honey bee colonies) and need time to catch up on a substantial backlog of work. Yours for a better understanding of science. Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * * "Once a structurally complete and closed system of opinions * *consisting of many details and relations has been formed, it * *offers enduring resistance to anything that contradicts it." * * Ludwik Fleck, 1935 [1979] * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:37:08 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "M.Westby (Max Westby)" Subject: 'Buckfast' bees >>I think it only fair to bring this to your attention, we all seem to be >>using the term 'Buckfast' too easily. My information tells me that there has >>been no importation of 'Buckfast' into the US for many years, with my >>knowledge of bee breeding and the gradual loss of purity I would suggest >>they cannot be called that anymore. It is highly unlikely that the traits >>you are looking for are still there. Buckfast Abbey have a licensing policy, >>and very strict controls of quality. To my knowledge there is no licensing >>agreement between Buckfast and the U.S.A. > > >According to "KEEPING BEES" by John Vivian, he writes: > Native English brown bees were crossed with Italians, and used by the >bamous beekeeper Brother Adam and confreres fo Buckfast Abbey to save the >British bee industry from acarine disease in the early decades of this >century. This vari-colored bee was bred for superior honey production, >gentleness, a compact brood nest, and good wintering on limited stores. >Their sale is lecensed in the USA only to Weaver Apiaries, Inc. of Navasota, >Texas. Brother Adam's order gets a royalty on each queen sold. > > Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA >It's a great place to BEE! Yes Sean and Patti, you're absolutely right I went to a talk last October here in Sheffield, given by Brother O'Donovan from Buckfast. There is no doubt that Weaver's have the exclusive licence and they receive drone semen and queens on a regular basis from Buckfast to maintain the line. They pay $1/ queen royalty to Buckfast. Cheers, max (\ ---------------------------------------------{|||8------------- Max Westby (/ (Among other things a Sheffield Beekeeper) South Yorkshire Beekeepers Association BBKA apiary reg: JQ34 Phone (Home): +44 (0)114 236 1038 Phone (Work): +44 (0)114 282 6549 (direct) Fax: +44 (0)114 276 6515 e-mail: m.westby@sheffield.ac.uk World Wide Web Site: http://www.shef.ac.uk/psychology/westby/ --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:12:14 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Fumidil-B dosage. Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu The time of year is here when spring cleaning and feeding are in order. Along with that the books recommend feeding Fumidil-B with syrup. The only thing that the books don't say is: How often? I fed syrup with Fumidil last fall. I thought I was to do it again in the spring but some information passed on the BEE-L leads me to believe that that is overkill. What are the guidelines re: use of Fumidil? Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:58:56 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Re: Mite resistant swarm queens I agree and will try it this year (assuming I hear of any swarms). The last two years I have not heard of any. Last year I "contacted the police dept" and put my name on their list but still nothing came of it. Perhaps if we small timers had someone "in the know" help coordinate our separate activities we could distribute the load of testing and trying and such out to such an extent that it would be within our individual budgets. I, for one, would be willing to help do whatever I could to test new management procedures, control techniques and drugs or chemicals, strains of honeybees if it would get us out of this all to frequently depressing battle to protect our (shall I be honest) little friends. My great uncle was a beekeeper during WWII and, before he died last year, just shook his head when I told him what the beekeeping industry was trying to contend with. He was remembering, I think, the days when he pulled off glorious comb honey sections just by putting on the sections in the spring and when treatment for winter meant perhaps wrapping with tar paper. (I am perhaps glamorizing [how do you like that word? I thunk it up myself] his conditions but, the point is, he could not believe what I was telling him. It had been so easy in his day. He could not relate to our circumstances at all.) I have rambled and I am sorry. I would like to offer whatever services a three year victim of ignorance in beekeeping can offer. Perhaps others could as well.... Yours, Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Mite resistant swarm queens Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at CSC_uuxch Date: 2/20/96 8:12 PM When you catch a feral swarm this year, do not requeen it, and do not treat it for mites (beyond surveying to see if mites are present). The theory I'm trying to test is that if a feral colony is strong enough to swarm in this day and age, it must have at least some resistance to mites. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:05:05 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Re[2]: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) Once again a suggestion for some type of coordination of activities. This list covers the spectrum of beekeepers. Is there no way to coordinate all that experience and hands? Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at CSC_uuxch Date: 2/18/96 10:57 AM And yet we should be looking at survivers. Maybe the scientists among us could suggest a plan for evaluating suvivors? Maybe a cooperative effort could be made to gather prospects into a breeding program? bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:42:07 -5000 Reply-To: reischer@cpcug.org Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Blair Reischer Subject: A Beginners story: My bees died I am (was?) a single hive beekeeper (In Arlington, VA).....and the hive died... Today was the warmest day for two months, so I went to check my bees. They are dead, the hive (two brood boxes) is empty.... Dozens, but not hundreds of bee carcasses... which means some left and died outside the hive.. There is a lot of honey still in the hive.... so they didn't starve. I took no special winter precautions....(the bees survived last winter ok).. I see no evidence of disease, although I am not sure what I am looking for.. There is a little mold on the interior of the brood boxes, and on the ground under the hive... Should I assume that the cold snap in January did them in, or are there other factors? Can I simply re-introduce a package of bees into the hive in April? If so, how do I keep ants and other critters out of the hive between now and then? How can I be sure I don't have some disease that would infect the new stock?? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:37:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Winkler, David" Subject: flames I enjoy Allen's posts. He certainly has paid his dues and his "two cents" are worth as much as anybody. I think a lot of us must be suffering from Seasonal Adaptive Disorder. Nothing a few warm sunny spring days won't cure. David Winkler Winklerd@ichange.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:12:56 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Fumidil-B dosage. In-Reply-To: <9601218249.AA824937260@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > The time of year is here when spring cleaning and feeding are in > order. Along with that the books recommend feeding Fumidil-B with > syrup. The only thing that the books don't say is: How often? > I fed syrup with Fumidil last fall. I thought I was to do it again in > the spring but some information passed on the BEE-L leads me to > believe that that is overkill. > > What are the guidelines re: use of> Mark, Where I live in western Washington fall and spring are needed. I have tried one treatment in the fall and nothing in the spring. If anything slows down my spring buildup , I will not get the amount of honey that a good healthy hive will produce. When I did both fall and spring feeding with Fumidil- B , I had more hives that were in 3 deeps full of brood in may.The problem with Nosema, its not a black and white type of problem.You can have a % of your bees that are not healthy enough to really carry there weight in the hive. Plus they will die much sooner.I wished that we did not have to put any chemicals in our hives. All of us beekeepers should help and do what we can to get more funds for bee research.If we can go to the moon , we can make shure that the people that need pollenation ,will have the bees to do the job for them. Good luck and I wish you a great Year Roy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:33:48 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: CODE Subject: Ontario beekeeping thanks Just a note to thank all those people (happily, too many to mention individually) for their responses and help regarding my friend finding information about beekeeping and beehive making in Ontario. It was greatly appreciated. As a side note, although I'm still a student and not actually a "professional" scientist or apiarist, I've been watching the arguments and flames going on lately and drawing parallels with young tots bickering over who broke the toy, or whose daddy can beat up whose daddy. It may be completely off topic, but with all this "finger-pointing" it's no small wonder that so many efforts to control pests and world problems fail....it's a wonder smallpox was ever eliminated. Cheers! the opinions expressed are mine and do not in anyway reflect those of my educational institution....blah, blah, blah. Jason Lichter Trentomology jlichter@trentu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:58:45 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Fumidil B Hello I would like to know if anyone knows how long fumidil-B will remain active after its expiration date. The seal had not been broken.I can get some of the big bottles at a good price. My bees are important to me and would not want to take a 50% chance. I know that test have shown that you don't want to reduce the ppm of fumagillin. Thanks Roy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:49:00 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Fumidil-B dosage. ---------------Original Message--------------- > How often? >I fed syrup with Fumidil last fall. I thought I was to do it again in >the spring but some information passed on the BEE-L leads me to believe >that that is overkill. >What are the guidelines re: use of Fumidil? > Mark Egloff > MEGLOFF@CSC.COM Unfortunatly, like so many other things we now face in beekeeping, the only sure way to know if you need to treat, is to test. Otherwise you just don't know if your helping, or just throwing your money away. Tim Townsend TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:46:39 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Re[2]: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) In-Reply-To: <9601218249.AA824940494@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > Once again a suggestion for some type of coordination of activities. > This list covers the spectrum of beekeepers. Is there no way to > coordinate all that experience and hands? > Mark Egloff > MEGLOFF@CSC.COM > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) > Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at CSC_uuxch > Date: 2/18/96 10:57 AM > > And yet we should be looking at survivers. Maybe the scientists among > us could suggest a plan for evaluating suvivors? Maybe a cooperative > effort could be made to gather prospects into a breeding program? > > bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb > b b > b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b > b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b > Hello, I just had to add to my support to what Vince is talking about. A co-op with a set of guidlines for evaluation. If we like it or not , we are all in the same pool. By organizing a plan that we can all take part in will speed everything up for all of us. We need to evaluate 1000 ,s of hives. That sounds like a lot. Not so. I will have 100 myself. Some of the big boys can't spend the time on each hive as someone with 5 or 6 hives. I bet he could be looking for prduction or very good brood patterns. I have been writting to many people over the last few days. I'm getting more positive as time goes on. We don't have to make this a big crash program that has to have results in one year.I don't want to see us limit this to any one area. I know Queen breeders will be wondering if we will be taking there space.No,we need to evaluate as much genetic material as we can and we will all be winners.We want those with a couple of hives to be on board with us. Belive me , we all can learn more. Beekeepers and the researchers are a great group of people that do understand first hand how nature is so complex and full of surprises. I would like to see us take out the mite problem without chemicals.In natural genetics the mite problem will go away. That you can take to the bank.Apis Mellifera has been around for a very long time and has had to do battle with some pathogens as bad as the ones it is facing today. It will take time to have a workable plan. I will contact more people that will and can help. Some people will think it will gain nothing. We don't need one drop of negative. ( True story . I started a Quality circle of ten mechanics. We were told that it would not work and we were waisting time. Every one of the mechanics in that first circle went up in management and one young man became a mechanical engineer. We learned how to solve problems) We are so lucky and blessed with the best in the world here. Thanks for taking the time to read this. If someone wants to drop me some e-mail with Ideas please do so.I'm retired with two at U of Wash and one in the first grade.Some days are not long enough, but I will get back to you. Thank You Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:28:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau >We're a public garden/environmental education institution looking >for a good design for an indoor bee observation hive. If anyone has >any designs or knows of good sources, please contact me. Thanks. > You have to cantact Andr=E9 Payette from Montreal Insectarium. They built such an observation hive after a very long research. By now they have been operating it for several years (in a public environment) with great success. I think he speaks English. =20 Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien de Ham, Quebec, Canada, J0A 1C0 tel./phone (819) 828-3396; fax (819) 828-0357 chapleau@login.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:26:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin D. Roberts" Subject: Re: A Beginners story: My bees died Comments: To: reischer@cpcug.org Did you treat for Varroa? If so, how? Bees die of varroa in very much the way you described, leaving behind plenty of honey, and a hive with very few dead bees. With varroa, you should be fine reintroducing a package in April. Research indicates that varroa can live on dead bees for a couple months (I don't remember exactly how long), but April is plenty long enough. If you have foulbrood, there should be dead capped brood in the hive. If there is no dead brood, or very little (a hand-sized area=very little), you probably didn't lose the hive to foulbrood. If there is dead capped brood, and the cappings look sunken and oily, and have holes chewed through them, be suspicious. Open up the cells, if the dead larvae looks more like butterscotch pudding than a bug, be more suspicious. Hold the frame at an angle so you can look at the bottom of the cells (the gravitational bottom, not the bottom where the queen lays her eggs). If a lot of cells seem to have a thin dark-colored scale in them, you have foulbrood. Burn the frames with the combs and scorch the inside of the boxes. You can start a new colony in the boxes, on new frames. Cold alone will not generally kill bees. Bees do starve to death if they are too cold to move over to a new patch of honey, but then there will be a solid clump of bees in the hive, huddled over an area of comb where you can see bees dead, head-first in cells, looking for a last drop of honey. Mold is also not an indicator of anything, except moisture. Generally, however, a healthy hive will keep air moving in a hive enough to prevent mold from growing inside. Do you get freezing weather between now and April? If so, leave the hive alone. Nothing much will happen between now and April. You can try putting the hive bodies in plastic garbage bags, if you don't want to leave them be. Frankly, I think you had varroa. Right now, the only legal way to keep bees alive is Apistan. Get some, and treat according to the directions on the package, unless you want to get new bees every year. I have found that I need to treat twice a year (spring and fall) to prevent a nasty population crash. But we're in California, and we get re-infested every spring in the almonds. Good luck, Shawna Roberts Gypsy Bees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:00:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: Bees-escape hole The temperature is a balmy 40 degrees. I deceided to check on my bees. I noticed that one of the hives,in the inner cover, the bees are "balling" through the bee escape hole. I am afraid to open the hive any further,due to the low temperture.I reside in the state of Maine.Should the bees in this hive be feed? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:51:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Bees-escape hole > The temperature is a balmy 40 degrees. I deceided to check on my bees. I >noticed that one of the hives,in the inner cover, the bees are "balling" >through the bee escape hole. I am afraid to open the hive any further,due to >the low temperture.I reside in the state of Maine.Should the bees in this >hive be feed? They are likely just clustered high in the hive at this point, having eaten the food up below. Now the bulk of the cluster is situated just under the lid where it's nice and warm. It sounds like they are strong which is great. Until warmer weather comes, you can pour 3 or 4 pounds of granulated (table) sugar around the escape hole for them to work on, just as a precaution. Then replace the outer cover - no need to have it pushed all the way down. Moisture from the cluster will get to the sugar and the bees can slowly eat it away. BTW I always invert the inner cover for winter. This gives the colony more crawl space above the frames so they can easily move the cluster around/over to where there is still honey. (I've occasionally seen colonies cluster almost completely in this enlarged space. Without being broken up by intervening combs they can stay tight and warm, and have access to honey in combs beneath them.) For ventilation I put two sticks, say 1/4 - 3/8 inch thick across the ends of the inner cover, at front and back, to keep the outer lid raised up a bit. This seems to keep them nice and dry. When it gets up into the 50's you can peek under the inner cover to see where cluster is centered. As long as you see honey in contact with them, you're all set, and they don't need the sugar. You can just leave what's there for a snack. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:16:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Wayne E. Esaias" Subject: Re: Mite resistant swarm queens Two questions in response to my good friend Bill Miller's suggestion to NOT treat feral swarms for varroa. 1. How do know the swarm is a feral one and not from a kept colony? 2. How do you prevent any varroa from that swarm from serving as a close and perhaps potent source of infection for your own colonies. I remain to be convinced that not treating feral swarms is generally a good practice for most beekeepers. A final comment. There is lots of discussion on selective breeding of queens to come up with a resistant strain of bees. I am sure there must be considerable variation in the genetics of the mites - ie some less and some more virulent. Is this an area that is receiving any attention? Could a more innocuous mite be produced that our bees could better tolerate? Its not obvious how this would work, given the life style of the mite, but it may be an aspect that could help. Wayne Esaias ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:41:23 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Mite Resistance as a Red Herring > Two questions in response to my good friend Bill Miller's > suggestion to NOT treat feral swarms for varroa. > A final comment. There is lots of discussion on selective > breeding of queens to come up with a resistant strain of bees. > I am sure there must be considerable variation in the genetics > of the mites - ie some less and some more virulent. Is this > an area that is receiving any attention? Could a more > innocuous mite be produced that our bees could better > tolerate? Its not obvious how this would work, given > the life style of the mite, but it may be an aspect that > could help. This is a comment that agrees totally with my thoughts as previously posted regarding selection of bees and mites, and also about not treating for varroa when indicated. One very huge problem in developing a more benign mite is the fact that - in order to even remain beekeepers - we must treat varroa mite infestations with chemicals that harden the mites by killing any weak ones, and leaving only the strongest. (The only other practical and responsible alternative in most areas of North America is to gas the bees each year and buy packages from someone who does treat - or is outside the mite areas). (Some Europeans use mechanical methods that do not exert such selection pressure). This selection for tough mites is one reason why anyone who leaves strips in longer than necessary is unwittingly accelerating the selection for chemical resitant mites. And to consider the first part last... > 1. How do know the swarm is a feral one and not from a kept colony? > 2. How do you prevent any varroa from that swarm from serving as a > close and perhaps potent source of infection for your own colonies. > > I remain to be convinced that not treating feral swarms > is generally a good practice for most beekeepers. These are wise musings. I appreciate the great enthusiasm for a people's assult on the mites via breeding, and I believe that it can have an important place in dealing with the vampire mite. Nonetheless, I believe that a lot of people tinkering alone in their backyards with lack of funds, training and leadership will not accomplish anything useful, and will actually make dealing with the mite more difficult. Breeding bees is expensive, time consuming, and requires superior skills in observation as well as diligence in recording, and performing procedures. It is beyond me (and as some have observed, I think I'm fairly smart). Maybe I'm wrong in using myself as a measure, but know that even though I do have a little scientific training, I have many things to do, many distractions, and I have to make a living from the bees. That means I may have to change my plans in midstream. If I am producing honey this year, next I might want to produce bulk bees and another year pollinate. This means shoddy science. I realise hobbyists have more flexibility and less pressure, however I suspect most are lacking information, and resources, and exposure to the kind of training and support that is necessary to achieve anything meaningful or lasting in such a technical field. Don't get wrong - there are a few that are a very notable exceptions to this. If we want to get involved in a program, the way would be to be sure to approach and fund selected professional scientists who can design a program and assign tasks to those of us who wish to participate. I am afraid that an uncoordinated approach by many random independant beekeepers will only result in resevoirs of varroa in unknown spots, that will lead to repeated reinfestation of hobbyist and commercial neighbours that have just completed expensive treatments. If people want to leave their hives to see if they are varroa resistant, and if they care at all for their neighbours, they should IMO sample each hive regularly. When a serious mite threshold is reached, remove the hive from the test and treat it. At that point, it could be requeened and returned to the trial. This would allow the testing to go on it without becoming a nuisance. All this brings us again to the implied question of varroa resistance and varroa proofness. I doubt that there are any bees extant that are varroa proof. I very much doubt that there are any that can reliably survive for several seasons without some help. Since it is likely that every strain - even the best - will need *some* treatment occasionally, what measure of resistance can the casual observer use? Going a year or so without needing treatment may or may not mean something - perhaps that it has a good spot in the yard of bees or that it robbed out a hive that had an illegal fluvalinate treatment - I don't know. Because of the difficulty in assessing stock, and the usual problems in bee breeding, technical leadership is required, and I think we'd all be much better off if those who want to try to locate and select for varroa resistance be certain of their own qualifications to do so. If they are in the slightest doubt, guidance from extension services and universities and research stations would be advisable to avoid wasting a lot of effort and harboring a pest to the detriment of others. I place my hope in the scientific community to solve this problem - with strong support and assistance and guidance by beekeepers. However, we must keep our eyes peeled. It was keen observation of an anomaly and an inquiring mind that led to penicillin and also (closer to beekeeping) vegetable grease vs acarine. We are all capable of these kinds of observations, and if we see a colony(s) that doesn't seem to be bothered by the mite, we should ask not so much, "Is this strain in fact a super bee?", but rather, "What environmental factors might account for the resistance here?" Have a good day. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:15:44 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Coordinated Program-Additional Thoughts Additional thoughts toward a coordinated program; I think that most of the commercial and hobbyist beekeepers recognize that working at this thing alone is like trying to find the cure for cancer in your kitchen sink. It will take a coordinated effort guided by someone who has the background in scientific method and can break the problem down into tasks that can be accomplished by independent beekeepers. The analogy that pops into my mind is that of distributed computer processing where the computing power of many small computers is used in parallel, each working on a small chunk of the problem. Each individual computer, by itself, could not solve the problem but they can solve a small piece of it. To the scientists on the net, are there opportunities to use the "distributed resources" or is it impossible to coordinate the number of volunteers who would step forward to help. Or perhaps the problem we are trying to solve cannot yet be broken into components that can be distributed. Regardless, I think that if we wait on outside support to help us fix the problem or develop procedures and techniques which will help us adapt, we will not get very far for a very long time. Right now some of the brightest and most experienced beekeepers and bee scientists are able to tap and coordinate the resources of the world beekeeping community. Surely, in all that brainpower and experience, we can find a way of mobilizing a coordinated approach to the problem. Ah well, I am probably naive, and I apologize for taking up so much space. This issue has been bubbling inside of me for a long time that when I got started I found I couldn't stop. Yours, Mark Egloff. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:39:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Web Page In-Reply-To: Bee Peolple- I'm looking for opinions and assorted feed back on a new web page. It's only been out there awhile and I could use some input. http://www.nesc.org/~juggler/beekeepers.html Thanks, John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:33:43 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Mite Resistance In-Reply-To: <199602202356.SAA09175@london2.skn.net> On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson wrote: > According to "KEEPING BEES" by John Vivian, he writes: > Native English brown bees were crossed with Italians, and used by the > famous beekeeper Brother Adam and confreres of Buckfast Abbey to save the > British bee industry from acarine disease in the early decades of this > century. This vari-colored bee was bred for superior honey production, > gentleness, a compact brood nest, and good wintering on limited stores. > Their sale is lecensed in the USA only to Weaver Apiaries, Inc. of Navasota, > Texas. Brother Adam's order gets a royalty on each queen sold. > > Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA > It's a great place to BEE! The Buckfast bee is, I'm pretty sure, a more complex cross than just British/Italian. I think it's mostly a three-way cross A.M.mellifera/ligustica/carnica, but he experimented with many local varieties. There are 11 listed in his book "Breeding the Honeybee", with which he compares the Buckfast. I don't think he actually says what the 'mix' is, but then that's hardly surprising for several reasons. He certainly implies that he has taken advantage of several strains though. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 15:50:12 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Winston Sweatman Subject: Dancing bees Comments: cc: winstons@sol.maths.napier.ac.uk Greetings from Edinburgh, I'm a beginner at beekeeping. I've been interested in the discussion of bee language/dancing. Has anyone produced any alternative hypotheses to the hypothesis that bees dance to communicate the location of forage: i.e. if bees don't dance to communicate where to find nectar, why might they dance? Winston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:15:12 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Coordinated Program-Additional Thoughts In-Reply-To: <9601228250.AA825020292@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > Additional thoughts toward a coordinated program; > I think that most of the commercial and hobbyist beekeepers > recognize that working at this thing alone is like trying to find the > cure for cancer in your kitchen sink. It will take a coordinated > effort guided by someone who has the background in scientific method > and can break the problem down into tasks that can be accomplished by > independent beekeepers. > The analogy that pops into my mind is that of distributed computer > processing where the computing power of many small computers is used > in parallel, each working on a small chunk of the problem. Each > individual computer, by itself, could not solve the problem but they > can solve a small piece of it. > To the scientists on the net, are there opportunities to use the > "distributed resources" or is it impossible to coordinate the number > of volunteers who would step forward to help. Or perhaps the problem > we are trying to solve cannot yet be broken into components that can > be distributed. > Regardless, I think that if we wait on outside support to help us > fix the problem or develop procedures and techniques which will help > us adapt, we will not get very far for a very long time. Right now > some of the brightest and most experienced beekeepers and bee > scientists are able to tap and coordinate the resources of the world > beekeeping community. Surely, in all that brainpower and experience, > we can find a way of mobilizing a coordinated approach to the problem. > Ah well, I am probably naive, and I apologize for taking up so much > space. > This issue has been bubbling inside of me for a long time that when I > got started I found I couldn't stop. > Yours, > Mark Egloff. > Hi Mark, You did a very good job on what we can do. Tap all the resources.We need the beekeepers in the equation. They don't need to know population genetics or behavioral genetics to be a great help to thoughs that have that education. We don't have the time to wait for someone else to solve the problem. Can you imagine how much help beekeepers can do just by gettin in the act to lobby for more money for bee research. We can't be a loose cannon . We need the people who need pollenation on our side to get research money. Our bees are big $$$ to them. There has been some vague ideas put out, we just need to line up a plan that can gain us something. A list of traits that breeders can follow ,that will get us better bees.The researchers need to be helping in that problem.That is a big problem.If you breed for a couple of behaviors long enough , you will have to be dropping off some genes that control other traits that you want. Have a Pleasent Day Roy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:49:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Mite Resistance as a Red Herring Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <199602220419.AA08668@internode.net> On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Allen Dick wrotNonetheless, I believe that a lot of people tinkering alone in their > backyards with lack of funds, training and leadership will not > accomplish anything useful, and will actually make dealing with the > mite more difficult. > > Breeding bees is expensive, time consuming, and requires superior > skills in observation as well as diligence in recording, and > performing procedures. > > It is beyond me (and as some have observed, I think I'm fairly > smart). Maybe I'm wrong in using myself as a measure, but know that > even though I do have a little scientific training, I have many > things to do, many distractions, and I have to make a living from the > bees. That means I may have to change my plans in midstream. If I > am producing honey this year, next I might want to produce bulk bees > and another year pollinate. This means shoddy science. > > I realise hobbyists have more flexibility and less pressure, however > I suspect most are lacking information, and resources, and exposure > to the kind of training and support that is necessary to achieve > anything meaningful or lasting in such a technical field. > > Don't get wrong - there are a few that are a very notable exceptions > to this. > > If we want to get involved in a program, the way would be to be sure > to approach and fund selected professional scientists who can design > a program and assign tasks to those of us who wish to participate. > > Because of the difficulty in assessing stock, and the usual problems > in bee breeding, technical leadership is required, and I think we'd > all be much better off if those who want to try to locate and select > for varroa resistance be certain of their own qualifications to do > so. > > If they are in the slightest doubt, guidance from extension services > and universities and research stations would be advisable to avoid > wasting a lot of effort and harboring a pest to the detriment of > others. > > I place my hope in the scientific community to solve this problem - > with strong support and assistance and guidance by beekeepers.> > Have a good day. > Hello , I have something to clear up. Allen is right in regards to the scientific community has to lead with there knowledge. The researchers that I have been writting with for the last week all say about the same thing. The more selection and observation the faster we come to a positive conclusion.The researchers have to have a plan that some beekeepers can follow. I wish someone would tell me what traits all of the breeders are following. We don't even have a list , except , maybe calm and that they produce honey. Sue Cobey is working with some breeders like a co-op right now.She told me that she has been preaching for 15 years to get breeding programs going. We don't need a Phd to help. Just by reading some of the posts , I can see that.People new to beekeeping ask a question and they get answers. Never underestimate the power of people working together for a goal. I know first hand. I was a resource manager with over 3,000 people. Many different tasks had to be accomplished together.The right people to the right job at the right time. Not too many and not too few. It could take weeks or months to get a complete plan going. We are all doing something now. Thinking. Have a Great One Roy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:12:49 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Mites, Apistan, chemicals In-Reply-To: <199602210005.TAA10104@smarty.smart.net> On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Laura A. Downey wrote: > I have attached two files to this e-mail. This is a part of a > conversation that someone is having on a bulletin board about > dealing with mites. : Off the BBS > If the beekeeping industry and those of us who are hobbiest > keep flooding our hives with chemicals to control the mites > ..... All pretty much true -- you can argue about the details, but at the end of the day, Apistan et al are just a stop-gap whilst we sort out the long-term solution of breeding bees that can cope without it. The only area where I might not agree is about the chemical companies are rubbing their hands with glee, because they don't see beekeepers paying the money they will want for future products, even if they choose to produce them. : Off the BBS > For those on this board that think that treating mites with > Apistan is correct are really making a long term mistake. Well, yes and no. Whilst we treat we are slowing down natures own defences against a new parasite. The problem with this particular parasite is that it is _so_ destructive. We have little or no choice but to treat with something; but it needn't necessarily be Apistan or the like. : Off the BBS > Both creatures have lived together for centuries. Wrong! Varroa is new to Apis melliferra. Varroa and Apis _cerana_ have been coexisting, at present A.M. cannot do so. : Off the BBS > Being better stewards of our bees can help tremendously with > keeping and even building reistance to mite attack. Keep > the pollen stores up at all times. This gives the bees the > neccessary protein to handle the infestation and cope with the > virus infections that go along with these mites. Never does any harm, may well do some good. : Off the BBS > We must not be lead down that path of chemical warfare on mites > because we will loose in the long run. Probably true if that's _all_ we do. We must do more. : Off the BBS > To use chemicals with our bees is wrong and should be banned! Sadly, I have to disagree. I don't _like_ having to use pesticides near my bees and I _try_ to use technical controls where I can. But this is the real world. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD E BONNEY Subject: Mite Solution Hello all, The Honey Producer Magazine, v27 no 3, carried a letter to the editor pushing "the "natural miticide" called Mite Solution. According to the letter, Mite Solution "is registered with the EPA and all ingredients have been approved by the FDA." I only have a copy of this letter and it does not show an author. However, an accompanying sheet says to contact Drapers Super Bee for further information (and to buy the solution.) Can anyone shed any light on what is going on? Dick Bonney rebon@ent.umass.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:53:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Bee resistance to varroa Hello to the bee listers. I have been reading with interest the current thread about getting beekeepers involved with scientists. As a bee researcher working on developing and IPM program to manage (note I did not say control) both mites, I am very interested to hear your observations as I make mine. I am currently also re-writing my Beekeeper's Handbook, now 10 years out of date and out of print. While doing some background reading, I can across the following observations by Dr. Rob Page that summarize a lot of what has been regarded as bee resistant mechanisms to varroa. Note this does not include tracheal mites and I feel that breeding a bee resistant (tolerant) to both will never be achieved. However, here is my two cents worth. Known Mechanisms for Bee Resistance to Varroa : Hygienic behavior: bees open cells with mites, remove infested brood. : Grooming behaviors: bees remove mites from each other, killing the mites with their mandibles. : Length of capping stage for bees: bees pupate in fewer days; the more time pupae are in the cells, the more time mites have to develop. : Brood attractiveness: so far, Euopean bee brood is highly attractive to varroa, with the exception of the German Black Bee (A. m. mellifera) and the African bee. The mechanisms for resistance to tracheal mites are not known at present. But please remember that if you start breeding mite-resistant bees you will also be breeding the mites: they will never go away. On the recent thread of fumigillin, I just talked to Joli Winer at Mid-Con and here's the poop- "The drug used to control nosema disease is Bicyclohexylammonium =46umagillin, sold as Nosem-X and Fumidil-B=AE and should be used in syrup (= not in powdered or patty form); is sold by beekeeping suppliers. This material is viable for 2 years which can be extended if unopened bottles are stored in the freezer. Research has shown that spring feeding of fumagillin to established colonies can increase honey production by about 58%. To dissolve the powder thoroughly, mix it with warm water first in a small jar, let stand for 5 min, then shake until it is foamy. Alternately, you can mix the powder with some dry sugar, then mix it into the warm water. It is fed in this formulation of 75-100 mg fumagillin per gallon of sugar syrup: Syrup: - 2 teaspoons added to 4 oz. (1/2 Cup) warm water 95=B0F (35=B0C) and mixed= in two gallons of 2:1 (sugar:water) syrup. This feeds ONE COLONY, delivering the correct amount of the medication. Proper dosage, especially for bees confined for long periods to time, is 2 gallons medicated syrup per hive. - 9.5 gams make up 100-120 gallons of medicated syrup for feeding 100-120 package colonies (spring) or fall feeding for 50-60 colonies; 371 lbs. sugar in 186 lbs. (23 gallons) water =3D 50 gallons 2:1 syrup. Nosema can be a serious disease if not checked. Since it is often confused with symptoms of other diseases and mite predation, diagnosis is important to treat for nosema properly. Some effects of severe nosema are: - Reduced longevity of workers (by 50 percent). - Reduced honey yield (by 40 percent). - Queen supersedure as egg-laying in queen is adversely affected. - Hypopharangeal (food) glands of workers are affected and poor brood rearing ability will result, since the nurse bees are unable to produce enough brood food. - Hormonal development is disrupted, causing bees to age faster and forage earlier in life than normal. - Secretion of digestive enzymes is disrupted, causing bees to starve to death." from Beekeeper's Handbook, Sammataro & Avitabile, Third Edition. Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 Phone: (216) 263 3684 Fax: (216) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:38:53 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Observation hive Sujet: Observation hive The oldest and best known beehive manufacturer in Quebec, F.W.Jones in Bedford, Qc (514)248-3323 has an observation hive. Jean-Louis Adant (Qc) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:06:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Mites, Apistan and chemicals revisited --=====================_825044414==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all - I thought I'd post an update from the bulletin board that I frequent. This is from the same gentleman that posted the earlier messages I distributed to the list. Please note my questions and comments. I'd appreciate any comments or corrections you may have. Thank you to those who responded earlier. I did ask this gentleman if he lived in an area without mites, how many colonies he lost, and a few other related items. He has yet to answer those questions. Laura Downey (corvi29@smart.net) --=====================_825044414==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="MITE5.TXT" _______________________________________________________________________________ Let me make this short and to the point: 1. Mites will build and develop a resistance to Apistan within a very short period of time. MY QUESTION: 1. Isn't this a common problem with all pesticides over time? 2. Increased resistance will require stronger miticides. 3. Stronger miticides will cause greater possiblity of contanmination of honey. MY QUESTION: Isn't that false since the Apistan strips are placed in the hive AFTER the supers are removed? 4. Use of miticides short circuits the honeybees ability to deveolp their own resistance. MY QUESTION: Is this possible? 5. Honeybees have the capcity to do this since mites and bees have co-exsisted for eons. MY COMMENT: He's increased his "guestimate" from centuries to EONS. 6. Misuse of Apistan strips is a real problem now! MY COMMENT: I suppose so, but WE are trying to get the word out. 7. Brother Adam and others have developed strains that show some resistance and more to the point, can co-exsist with the mite and not have the colony destroyed by infection. 8. Good management skills by beekeepers can go a long way to keep resistance up and maintain colonies even when infected! MY QUESTION: If the colonies are infected, isn't is too late? 9. Not allowing colonies badly infected to continue. Maintain colonies and queens from those colonies for breeding and developing resistant strains. MY QUESTION: If the colonies are badly infected, how can you maintain the colonies or queens? When I lost one hive to mites two years ago, I would consider that badly infected. How am I supposed to maintain a dead colony? 10. Stop buying into the chemical industries short fixes for insect control. They have only caused serious pollution of the enviornment and developed resistance strains. MY COMMENT: We don't have any choice. --=====================_825044414==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:37:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Mites, Apistan, chemicals Gordon Scott writes: > >Wrong! Varroa is new to Apis melliferra. Varroa and Apis _cerana_ >have been coexisting, at present A.M. cannot do so. I wonder what the strategies are that apis cerana has developped for dealing with the mites. Are they biochemical or behavioural? Is it possible to cross breed the two species (possibly using artificial insemination)? This would be a pretty drastic path to a solution given the years of breeding that have led to present a. melifera, but constantly exposing the bees and honey to toxic chemicals is a pretty drastic path to follow also!!! I have only been keeping bees for eighteen years but I have seen natural selection operate quite quickly on my hives. I haven't really selected for honey production. I have a ready and closeby pollination market because I am in the midst of a blueberry area. The bees used to come from Florida until the border was closed because of mites (tracheal at that time!). I always tried to winter them, but only about two thirds would survive. Then the bees came from New Zealand or Australia which are mite free, but they still didn't seem that comfortable with Canadian winter. The last few years I haven't had to buy any packages and I've been able to increase my colonies by 50 % each year and still harvest considerable honey. The bees that couldn't winter here under my lax management died. Those that could survived and increased. I may have improved my wintering techniques a little by improving ventilation, but I attribute most of the bees survival lately (95% last winter, and haven't found a dead colony so far this winter out of 160) to natural selection, because I haven't been selecting. So the selection pressure has been on survival and the ability to multiply (I hate to admit it, but I've been so busy with my dairy farming that I just divide the hives that are getting too strong or starting to make swarm cells.) Anyway, to get back to the mites: It seems to me that as long as people keep using chemicals that natural selection cannot operate. Yet I admit that most beekeepers need to use chemicals to keep their bees. Maybe what is needed is a few fairly isolated areas where the beekeeper(s) do not use chemicals and the only selection is for survival. Other beekeepers would have to keep sending bees into this area, because most of them would keep dying from mites. That would be the beekeepers contribution to the program that Roy keeps talking about. Nobody is going to stop using chemicals because his or her bees are going to die. But if we kept sending bees to this "selecting area" from all over the continent, then maybe the odd hive might survive. And that is what we would have to breed from and then cross breed with bees with superior traits and send the daughter colonies back into the the selection area. It isn't easy, but I don't see how the traits can be selected for otherwise. My two cents worth Stan Sandler p.s. I just read Diana Sammataro's letter, and that answers some of my questions about the mechanisms {known) for mite resistance. I wonder which of these apis cerana is using? This message printed with 100% recycled electrons. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:46:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Mite resistant swarm queens First off, my thanks to all the people who commented on the idea of looking for mite resistance in swarm queens. Wayne brings up two good points about swarms: How do you know they are truly from a wild colony? How do you keep them from infecting your other colonies with Varroa? As to the the origin of swarms, although you can't completely prove a swarm to be from a feral colony (unless you saw it come out of a hollow tree), you can make a good guess (especially in my suburban Maryland location). First, is the swarm queen marked? Second, are there other beekeepers near where you collected the swarm (within a mile)? I daresay that any swarm that comes with an unmarked queen and from an area you know to be devoid of beekeepers has a high probability of being from a wild colony. As to totally preventing Varroa spread via drifting from the swarm colony, there will always be drifting in a multicolony apiary. It would be nice to be able to set up a "quarentine apiary" for swarm colonies, but for most of us that would not be practical. However, considering that all my colonies have tested positive for Varroa for the last three years, I don't worry abouta swarm colony introducing Varroa to my other colonies. It's already there. Allen made the comment that some professional scientific guidance on this project would be advisable, and I agree. One of the banes of small-scale research projects like this one is trying to get enough data and enough control over the experiments to make the results something more than interesting anecdotes. If last year was any guide, I will be lucky to even catch a swarm this year. Nevertheless, I will discuss the professional guidance issue with our State Extension Apiculturist and see what ideas he has (Gordon -consider yourself warned). And lastly, the Coppalas mentioned the long odds against finding a strain that is both Varroa and Tracheal mite resistant (using their figures, perhaps ten colonies in Maryland would show resistance to both mites), and also the concern that if I did find such a colony, the local drones from nonresistant colonies would wipe out the valuable traits when they mated with any new queens. These comments I can only answer with the observation that amid all the mite carnage, some bee swarms still appear every April, and in areas where I don't know of any local beekeepers. Somehow, the wild colonies that produce these swarms are prospering. I'd like to know why. Keep those comments and ideas coming in, especially if you are a professional researcher interested in organizing this work. I daresay the organizing could be done by e-mail. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:40:14 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: screen fo mite trap I am a new Bee-l user. I am also a hobby beekeeper that had all (4) of my hives die last year from varro. This year I would like to find something that will help me evaluate mite treatments. I read an article that said that a sticky board could be such a devise. The author said that screen should be put over the sticky board to let the bees walk on it , but allow the dead mites to fall through and be observed and counted. Does any one know what size screen could be used to advantage? This information would may not measure up to the caliber that I have observed be discussed on Bee-l so, please send me the suggection if you have a suggestion. Thank you, James Peterson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:50:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Dancing bees In a message dated 96-02-22 13:11:16 EST, winstons@MATHS.NAPIER.AC.UK writes: > Has anyone produced any alternative hypotheses to the hypothesis that bees >dance >to communicate the location of forage: > i.e. if bees don't dance to communicate where to find nectar, why might >they dance? > I too, have been following the discussion with interest, but did not respond to the survey. I am not convinced of the value of the survey, when the training of each respondant is not known. I have observed a lot of dancing bees, but have not personally done any serious research on the subject, so I haven't any credentials here either. It is a matter of academic interest to me, but, hey, who knows why. Maybe they dance because they are happy. It sure makes me happy to see a lot of them dancing. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Things are poppin' in the South (USA) Report from South Carolina: Gorgeous spring is upon us and the bees are coming on fast now. The last week of January began the maple flow, then it was interupted by the coldest weather of the season, with one low of 8 degrees F, here. The second week of February the flow resumed as if nothing had happened. It is now over, and bees are ready to rob at the drop of a hat - a real nuisance when you are trying to feed. Peach bloom is beginning on early varieties, though I'm sure there has been some freeze damage. Wild mustard was killed back somewhat, and there isn't near as much as usual for the season. It is a good pollen source, but not nectar. A lot of anise hyssop is now starting. I am glad to see any bloom for the bees during this barren period that always follows the maple flow. The next real flow usually gets on about the last week of March. There is a lot of variation among the bees, with some that have just barely made it (2-3 frames of bees, one with brood) and others that are wall to wall, with 6-8 frames of brood. We are equalizing brood, and sometimes switching hives to equalize field force, then feeding heavily. It's getting very dry, similar to last year, when late winter dryness led to spring drought. We had a wildfire run through part of a bee yard, destroying some equipment and one hive. Could have been a lot worse, but we now must get busy burning off all yards that have pine straw. Earlier in the winter, it was too wet to burn. I heard my wife talking to the bees. She was saying: "This may look like fire to you, but it's really fire insurance." These are the days that make you glad to be a beekeeper. Lots of folks are looking out the window at the sunshine and wishing for the magic hour of freedom, when they are finally able to get out of their cubicles. We are out there, enjoying the sunshine. -Nice to work in a T-shirt again. Y'all pale and sneezy northerners, come on down and enjoy our fine Myrtle Beach, one of the best spots in the USA for a spring vacation. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: A Beginners story: My bees died reischer@cpcug.org (Blair Reischer) says in a message dated 96-02-21: >I am (was?) a single hive beekeeper (In Arlington, VA).....and the >hive died... >Today was the warmest day for two months, so I went to check my bees. >They are dead, the hive (two brood boxes) is empty.... Dozens, but >not hundreds of bee carcasses... which means some left and died >outside the hive.. >Gypsybees@AOL.COM (Kevin D. Roberts) responds: >Did you treat for Varroa? If so, how? Bees die of varroa in very much the >way you described, leaving behind plenty of honey, and a hive with very few >dead bees. (good description of how to check if foulbrood was the cause of death - deleted): It is always a good idea to do a post mortem on any dead hive. Kevin has done a good service by indicating some possible causes. I would like to add that varroa is easily diagnosed in a post mortem. If it was the cause of death, the mites can likely be seen on the adults, and certainly on the brood. I saw one the other day, that apparently was somehow missed in the Apistan treatments. The symptoms were exactly as you described, with a tiny patch of bees covering a half a hand sized patch of brood. There was plenty of honey. The first brood cell I uncapped had a larva and four varroa mites on it. At least the mites died with the bees. Before you knock off the last adults of the cluster, look at them carefully to see if there are any adhering mites. The are pinhead sized, and shiny reddish brown. You need a good eye and sunlight, but they can be easily spotted once you know what you are looking for. Then uncap a few cells of the capped brood. If the hive died of varroa, they can easily be seen against the lighter colored brood. If the hive died of American Foulbrood, you must sterilize it; do not install fresh bees on the comb. If it died of varroa, you can use the hive again without fear, the mites die quickly when they have no bees to live off, no more than a day or two. It can't be long, because many of them don't even drop off the bee. I would think Virginia is pretty well infected in every area. Since varroas ride on drifting drones, you are unlikely NOT to have become infected, and if you did not treat for the mites, it is the most likely cause of death. Be sure to get Apistan strips on, twice a year, when there is no honey flow. Some older authorities said once a year was enough, and perhaps it still is in the North, but bees stay brooded up more in the South, and must be treated, at least twice a year. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:45:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Fumidil BHelloI would like to know if anyone knows how long fumidil-B ill remain RN>From: Roy Nettlebeck >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:58:45 -0800 >Subject: Fumidil B RN> > I would like to know if anyone knows how long fumidil-B will remain >active after its expiration date. The seal had not been broken.I can get >some of the big bottles at a good price. My bees are important to me and >would not want to take a 50% chance. I know that test have shown that >you don't want to reduce the ppm of fumagillin. >Thanks Roy Hi Roy, If you need it..get it. But the sad truth there is no way to check it and in fact there is no quality control once it leaves the production line, and there is the real rub. The only chance for checking the active ingredients is during the manufacture, so we are at the mercy of the good will and your faith in the company that makes it. When it was manufactured in the US it was possible to call and ask these type of questions of the actual hands on people who made it while they were making it. I remember many such calls to the lab in Chicago, as I was using many lot's of it and it was not cheep so I wanted to know from who and what I was buying. I have no idea who or what country it is made in today, or if any type of quality control exists. I suspect that it is exempt from any kind of US controls, but don't know the facts. It could be "fu fu" dust and we would have no way to know, and no way to test it. Therefore unless you know you are having a problem it is one of those chemicals that should only be used when you have the extra cash to invest. It is not hard to learn to check for and count nosema spores and only requires a kid's microscope to do field tests. I have used enough jars of this stuff to form a line of bottles placed on the top header of the blocks that make the walls of my warehouse that extends two hundred feet, a very impressive sight when viewed from the prospective of the cost's to the beekeepers involved. Fumagillin, if kept in the container which did have an inert gas seal, protected from heat, protected from light, air, and stored in a cool place, preferably a refrigerator, should last long past it's expiration date. This drug should be refrigerated prior to sale or use, I have never visited a retailer that refrigerated it, sorry to say. No law's exist to protect your interests in this product other then when a company want's to manufacture it for sale and be protected from other company's that might want to manufacture it, the rest is just not there. When opened it should be used by dissolving in warm, not hot, not cold water. Hot water will melt the binder and make it hard to mix in sugar syrup. The products contains buffers that will foam when mixed with warm water, after it is thoroughly dissolved, foaming will stop and it can be mixed with the appropriate amount of sugar. Fumagillin is best used to prevent problems, and should be used just prior or at the onset of brood rearing, but can be used anytime there is no danger of honey contamination. (Don't use during a honey flow, as it will become diluted and not do much good, and will end up in the stored honey.) The product should be free flowing from the jar, if not it has been damaged by heat and may be worthless. Does it work or does it pay to use it? I am not sure it pays to use this product in field or production hives but it is a must for hives used for queen rearing and nucs in the spring in this area of California. It extends the life of bee's and in small colonies like queen mating nucs and small hives that are closed up or can't get out to fly and (to do what our CIA found out about what bee's did in Nam, Yellow Rain). We use to, and most still do in this area use 20 lbs of bee's in a screened cage to rear queen cells on a fast easy cheep large scale. Before using Fumagillin the bee's were good for one ten day run and then were of no value. After ten day we put the cells in a temperature and humidity controlled box. I have used these same bee's several time's when fed Fumagillin, (don't recommend it), and now after the bee's have been used once they can be added to hives, (in the past we just dumped them in a bee yard, and most of them would die). Incidentally when these 20 lbs of bulk bee's are being ladled out into baby nuc's after dark they are less aggressive if they have been held on syrup with Fumagillin before use. The greatest return on money spent for Fumagillin is in feeding queen banks holding several hundred queens, the loss of queens is not a factor but it sure can be when none is used. Fumagillin syrup in package bee feed can extend the critical, time sometime's shortened by weather, in getting the packages successfully installed or having large number's of dead bee's in the bottom of the package prior to installation or sometime's all of them dead. If I had a choice I would buy queens and packages from someone that I knew used Fumagillin then from someone I did not know if he fed it. And used it year around when rearing queens. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ .. What is not good for the swarm is not good for the bee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:13:41 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Fumidil Each package has an expiry date on it and advice as to how to prepare and administer it. Most expiry dates for drugs are usually well within the safety limit but unless one has inside information it is wise not to go too far beyond it, perhaps six months. When mixing into syrup its temperature must not rise above 120F (49C). It should be stored in a dry, dark place below 65F (18C). Always check the expiry date when you buy it. Here in the UK nosema is considered endemic, i.e. it is present in most hives and shows itself when the bees are under stress due to weather conditions, shortage of stores or another disease such as our new enemy Varroa. It is an insidious disease, creeping up slowly and becoming obvious only when the stock is clearly weakening. Infected bees are short lived and weakened and the stock becomes easy prey to other diseases. The queen can become infected, go off lay and die. Proof of its presence can only be found by grinding up a few abdomens and putting slides under a high-powered microscope, not a task for the average beekeeper. There are several good books on bee diseases and one should be on every beekeeper's bookshelf. I can recommend Roger Morse's Honey Bee Pests, Predators,and Diseases and Leslie Bailey's Honey Bee Pathology. Early detection of disease is vital. Personally, I offer my bees a half-dose in early spring served in weak (1 to 1) sugar syrup and a full dose in the autumn, usually September, when we top up winter stores with full strength syrup. It seems to work. Knowing that some people are opposed to drugs because they promote resistance may I quote from Bailey. "Attempts to select strains of Nosema apis resistant to Fumagillin, by maintaining infection in bees treated with subliminal doses of the antibiotic, have failed." _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:13:44 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Varroa and Flames A lot of harsh exchanges on the Bee List recently. No one likes to be told,when all his bees have died, that it was his fault. However, the fact remains that we have had the story of the mites relentless advance across Europe in front of us for years. In 1984 Roger Morse issued a warning to America "spreading around the globe at a terrific rate----------expected to infest all countries that have honey bees within a decade or two". How right he was. In 1988 the mite was found in California and treated with Apistan. In 1989 it appeared in New Brunswick. There the bees were destroyed, a method already shown to be futile. This should have set warning bells ringing in every apiary in America and Canada and from then on it was plain commonsense for every beekeeper to check his bees every six months at least. Here in the UK we had twenty miles of water between us and the rest of Europe but we knew it would come. We started educating our beekeepers in 1988, asking all to test for Varroa. It arrived four years later and spread rapidly. Even now, another four years on, after eight years of education, we are still getting reports of fifty to one hundred percent losses from beekeepers who could not be bothered to check or treat, thinking, in spite of all the evidence, that it would not happen to them. Most see it in terms of loss of honey. I see it differently. The primary value of bees to man lies in pollination. Honey is secondary. We can do without it but not without pollinators and now we see the needless loss of millions. Most beekeepers do not expect thanks because they get their reward in honey but for every colony they own they send out some twenty thousand pollinators to cover some ten square miles of gardens, farms and countryside helping to provide seeds and fruits for neighbours, farmers, birds and wild life generally. Wild stocks are disappearing as Varroa strikes them and soon our local amateur beekeeper with four or five colonies in his garden will be public benefactor number one supplying ninety or more percent of the pollinators for miles around. Someone wrote recently that the cost of treatment was too high. Whether you treat chemically, physically or biologically it involves expense. A few dollars, a few pounds represent the difference between an empty hive and several full supers, a few cents or pence per jar of honey. Another person wrote deploring the use of chemicals in the hive. I think we all do. There are alternative non-pesticidal treatments but at present none as effective as Apistan. Used sensibly and as instructed I think there is little chance of seriously contaminating honey. There are a lot of empty hives needing restocking and every live stock is precious. Knowing I have Varroa in every hive I shall make a mite count in a week or so using Apistan, with a further count every ten days through the six weeks the strips are in. They will come out and shortly afterwards the supers will go on. From then on I shall be drone trapping, dusting and spraying (all harmless to bees and honey) at intervals through the nectar flows. All honey comes off in mid-July after which new strips go in. Never economise on strips. They are useless after six weeks. One day, when all the wild stocks are dead and beekeepers are all treating and there is no fear of re-infestation from outside and with mites reduced it may be possible to relax on the Apistan and let the bees take charge. Time will tell. S H P _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:01:13 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: PHILIP EARLE Subject: Incubation temps.. Hi all... Does anyone have any practical experience of Queen cell incubation in incubators, specifically a large 2x2x2 foot in size type. I want to know what is the Max and Min temperature at 50% humidity that the cell can withstand without causing damage to emerging queens ? Would a small electric fan like those inside a personal computer cause too much vibration resulting in damage to the developing queens? Thanks Phil BGC0311@v2.qub.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:56:04 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Incubation temps.. > Does anyone have any practical experience of Queen cell incubation > in incubators, specifically a large 2x2x2 foot in size type. I want > to know what is the Max and Min temperature at 50% humidity that the > cell can withstand without causing damage to emerging queens ? > Would a small electric fan like those inside a personal computer > cause too much vibration resulting in damage to the developing > queens? > > Thanks > Phil > BGC0311@v2.qub.ac.uk > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:05:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: screen fo mite trap Comments: To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us In a message dated 96-02-22 23:41:13 EST, you write: > I read an article that said that a sticky board >could be such a devise. The author said that screen should be put >over the sticky board to let the bees walk on it , but allow the dead >mites to fall through and be observed and counted. Does any one know >what size screen could be used to advantage? Hardware cloth - 1/8 mesh will do fine. Put a half inch spacer between it and the paper, and it won't even really need to be sticky, if the bees cannot reach it. Careful that you don't let the debris slide off, when you pick it up. Sticky paper is expensive. It's always surprising how much debris will accumulate in a day or two, if the bees can't clean it up. Get in bright sunshine to look for the mites. They will stand out, as they are shiny, the rest of the debris isn't. >This information would may not measure up to the caliber that I >have observed be discussed on Bee-l so, please send me the suggection if you >have a suggestion. Sounds like a good common sense question to me! Good luck. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:05:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Varroa and Flames In a message dated 96-02-23 02:16:05 EST, sidpul@ALADDIN.CO.UK (Sid Pullinger) writes: >A lot of harsh exchanges on the Bee List recently. No one likes to be >told,when all his bees have died, that it was his fault. However, the fact >remains that we have had the story of the mites relentless advance across >Europe in front of us for years. (Rest of good, common sense letter deleted to save repitition) Thanks Sid. I expect a list like this to be a free exchange, because beekeepers tend to be an opinionated bunch. Anyone who survives as a beekeeper in these tough times must be a "rugged individualist" (sometimes otherwise known as a hard-headed, SOB. ;<) But some of the discussion has stepped over the line of free exchange, and gone into personal attacks. Allen Dick, for example, has paid his dues, with a lot of services provided to beekeepers over the years. The attacks on him were certainly not deserved. (And Allen is not the only one who has been unfairly treated.) A suggestion to Allen, and others, who have insulting and abusive stuff thrown. Don't respond, if it's not worthy of response, because it will go on into more cycles of abuse, and waste a lot of group time. Don't feel obligated to defend yourself. Most of us know who has done his or her homework, and will forgive differences of opinion. Maybe the nuts will go away. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:28:31 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: F Hogenboom Subject: memory of orientation hi all, The severe winter here in the Netherlands has prevented the bees to make any flights for more than two months. In my backyard I have two hives and I am planning to move them 10 metres. Doing this just before the cleaning-flights happen and very carefully of course! I consult my bee-books about memory-loss during the winter. They cause confusion. There appears to be not a concensus at this subject (and fortunately my bees don't read books) such as: -honeybees don't lose their memory of orientation during the winter -after a week without flight bees have to re-orientate. In my opinion the bees who made forage-flights in october-november are dead and the bees who are present now are the young house-bees from the last months of 1995 Please let me know your opinion about this topic. Francois e-mail: F.Hogenboom.Pharm@Med.VU.NL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Metting Anouncement In-Reply-To: <960221232622_228252214@emout08.mail.aol.com> The Western New York Beekeepers Association will host a class on honeybee managment. Dr. Larry Connor will present a talk entitled "A Plan for Hive Management". He will cover basic bee biology, yearly hive management, and disease control. All are invited to attend. Place: The First Presbyterian Church of East Aurora 9 Paine St. (corner of Main & Paine) East Aurora, New York Time: Registration 8:30-9:00am Program 9:00am to 4pm with a break for lunch. Cost: $10 Coffee and doughnuts will be provided in the morning. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Mite Solution In-Reply-To: <199602221900.OAA13416@titan.oit.umass.edu> On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, RICHARD E BONNEY wrote: > Hello all, > > The Honey Producer Magazine, v27 no 3, carried a letter to the editor > pushing "the "natural miticide" called Mite Solution. According to the > letter, Mite Solution "is registered with the EPA and all ingredients have > been approved by the FDA." I only have a copy of this letter and it does > not show an author. However, an accompanying sheet says to contact > Drapers Super Bee for further information (and to buy the solution.) > > Can anyone shed any light on what is going on? > I looked into this last summer. The EPA, FDA, and patent numbers were all fake. The stuff is overpriced and no research or testing has been done. I ran a small experiment (35 colonies) and gave up because the results were poor and I could'nt waste time on somthing that was'nt working. I think Dr. Calderones work with Thymol is more promising. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:11:16 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: War and Peace > A suggestion to Allen, and others, who have insulting and > abusive stuff > thrown. Don't respond, if it's not worthy of response, because it > will go on into more cycles of abuse, and waste a lot of group time. Thanks Dave and the many others who have been so supportive while I have stayed silent. I just thought I'd say something since I accidently released a blank message to the list this morning - you all probably saw it, and it illustrated how sometimes these things happen. On my reader, sometimes I go to respond, then realise that what I have to say is not right on the money, or I have to go and get more info, or someone else will probably answer it better - and I decide to delete. Unfortunately the 'delete' button is right next the 'send' button, and early in the morning, or late at night, I make the occasional mistake. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does that. Sometimes I write things I don't really intend to post, or set up to forward something and get the wrong address. On Pegasus, it is easy to do. If you don't read all the headers carefully, you can goof. And if you post a lot, you'll sooner or later screw up. If the readers lack a sense of humour on that day, all hell can break loose. If a smart guy like me makes mistakes, then imagine the trouble ordinary mortals face! (This is intended as a self-deprecating joke, so please no flames from the (temporarily) humour impaired). Anyhow, I don't usually regard people who flame me as 'nuts'. I think thay are just angry and maybe temporarily a little short on control and manners. Maybe they wrote the flame to relieve the pressure and intended to delete it, but hit the wrong button. I prefer to think so. It makes me happier, even if it is perhaps sometimes self-deception. > Don't feel obligated to defend yourself. Most of us know who has > done his or her homework, and will forgive differences of opinion. This I very much appreciate, and you'll notice that I didn't post after the flame was received, except to write as neutral an explanation of the original post as I could. I found that most agreed to some extent with the rationale - even the original dissident (after he cooled a bit) who pointed out that he does not claim to be a chicken farmer. > Maybe the nuts will go away. Well, actually, I haven't really encountered any nuts here. I've met some people who claimed not to like me or my posts. In any group of 500+ people, there will be some that do not like me. That's okay with me. It's healthy. Keeps me from getting a swelled head. Besides usually these passions are temporary, and I have many net friends that on first meeting had a strong reaction. *All* of the people who have flamed this list have gone on to make valuable posts - and not repeated the offence after finding out that it is counterproductive. This is a new medium, and misunderstandings are common because droll or good humoured teasing and jests come across flat and hard, unless smilies are attached, and that seems to many to be a little phoney. Anyhow, I guess that what I'm trying to say here is that flaming is a behavior, not a mark of a'nut' unless often repeated. So my policy is to keep down, write secret replies that I shred, make a pleasant public face, and try to respect everyone's opinion. I hope that everyone keeps contributing, and that we can all find the 'delete' button when we are overcome with passion or tiredness. And if some of us don't, please everyone, do use yours. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:28:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Metting Anouncement In-Reply-To: Sorry everyone, I posted a meeting with no date. The class by Dr. Connor in East Aurora is on March 2, 1996. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:35:56 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Wood Subject: Re: Dancing bees In-Reply-To: <960222235044_151305789@mail02.mail.aol.com>; from "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" at Feb 22, 96 11:50 pm Let me say that I've really enjoyed the thread on the dance language controversy. I've also forwarded some of the posts on to a philosophy professor who had been using von Frisch's work as an example of scientific discovery. It's been a better example of scientific inquiry and how we learn things in science than he could have anticipated. Do I understand it correctly, though, that the consensus is that bees do not communicate with pinpoint accuracy via the dance and that therefore it's not a "language?" It would seem to me that it might be more precise to say that the dance is just not a very precise language. (One could, for example, write a similar argument entitled "Do parents of little league baseball players use language?" and make similar arguments that the information communicated is extremely gross in nature, is not followed reliably by the recipients of the information, is affected/contradicted by the activities of other foragers on the field, etc.) I guess the upshot to me, a layperson, is that I really don't understand what is meant by the phrase "language" here as used by the experts. Anyone care to fill me in? thanks! Phil Wood wood@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu (all five hives are doing well so far this winter!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:57:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Mite Resistance as a Red Herring In-Reply-To: On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > beekeepers can follow. I wish someone would tell me what traits all of > the breeders are following. We don't even have a list , except , maybe > calm and that they produce honey. Sue Cobey is working with some breeders > like a co-op right now.She told me that she has been preaching for 15 > years to get breeding programs going. And she is right. It seems to me that other than her New World program U.S. breeders are not using the latest tools. Anyone out there who is interested in breeding for disease resistance or any other trait should read all they can about "Closed population Breeding". The new "Hive and the Honeybee" edition has an excellent section on this. Reprints of ABJ or Gleanings articles are available. Look for stuff by Sue Coby or Dr. Rob Page. I think this is essential reading for all who wish to discuss controlling diseases through breeding. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Dead colonies/PMS/Beehavers In-Reply-To: <9602231535.AA21000@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu.psyc.missouri.edu> I'm getting more reports of colony losses. Some can be explained by beekeeper ignorance, but some are not. At our last meeting two hobbyists reported high losses. In one case it was 100% loss of 40 col., in the other case it was 48 of 50 dead. Both treated with Apistan last fall. I know them both quite well and inspected their bees myself, so I can vouch for their capability. The most amazing report is from a well respected commercial beekeeper here in WNY. He has kept bees since 1968 and runs over 1000 col. He has worked as an Inspector and knows dieases well. Last spring he put two new Apstan strips in each col., in March, took them out in June. He surveyed his operation in Sept. and found very low varroa counts. He made an above average crop. He saw nothing unusual last fall. He lost 80% with PMS symtoms. There is much we don't know and I don't think we have all the tools. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:59:24 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: memory of orientation A >In my opinion the bees who made forage-flights in october-november are dead >and the bees who are present now are the young house-bees from the last >months of 1995 > >Please let me know your opinion about this topic. >Francois > >e-mail: F.Hogenboom.Pharm@Med.VU.NL > My climate is no doubt different but I have moved bees during the winter and have not noticed any returning to the old site, even if it is within a few hundred metres. Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:12:42 +0000 Reply-To: P.Wright@ed.ac.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wright Subject: Re: memory of orientation You should have no difficulty in moving hives even a few metres as long as the weather remains cold and there is no substantial period when the bees are regularly flying. Most bees who leave the hive at this time of year will make clear orientation flights facing the hive as they re-learn its location. Peter Wright ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:27:23 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: gary oberton Subject: Re: Dead colonies/PMS/Beehavers I've been having more than my share of acarine related winter losses the last 4 years . Way more. What I'm wondering is are there truly acarine resistant queens out there? I bought queens from 4 sources last year all of whom claimed at least some resistance. Initial spot checks on my outdoor wintered colonies show up to 50% loss in some yards. With the boxes still heavy. Lots of dead bees out front. Bees I sent to Calif. have fared much better but they too show losses that lead one to believe acarine is the cause. 80 colonies placed in the hot room all look exellent at this time. Anyone else have any knowledge of how indoor wintered bees compare to outdoor wintered as pertains to tracheal mites? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:13:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Dead colonies/PMS/Beehavers In-Reply-To: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, gary oberton wrote: > I've been having more than my share of acarine related winter losses > the last 4 years . Way more. What I'm wondering is are there truly acarine > resistant queens out there? I bought queens from 4 sources last year > all of whom claimed at least some resistance. Initial spot checks on my > outdoor wintered colonies show up to 50% loss in some yards. With the boxes > still heavy. Lots of dead bees out front. Bees I sent to Calif. have fared much First, how sure are you that tracheal mites are the problem? Sending a sample of bees to a lab could help. I may be getting a bit repetitious but unless there is good control over the matings, resistance is unlikely. We have some good lines (tested) and there are several breeders in Ontario who have been breeding for HTM resistance. How resistant? We have stopped all chemical control measures and in our selected lines have seen very few mites in field tests. Mite levels in our colonies that have not been requeened with the new stock run from mild to severe. The program is only 4 yrs old so I think there will still be some HTM losses even if these queens are used. However, improvement is made with each generation. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b b Vince & Carole Coppola vcoppola@epix.net b b Coppola Apiaries, (716)965-2904 b b 10220 Bradigan Rd. b b Forestville, N.Y. 14062 b b b b Queens bred for tracheal mite resistance b b Honey , Pollination b b Western New York Beekeepers Association b b b bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:14:29 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Veldhuis Subject: "Language" ??? In-Reply-To: <9602231535.AA21000@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu.psyc.missouri.edu> from "Phil Wood" at Feb 23, 96 09:35:56 am Phil Wood insightfully writes: > > Do I understand it correctly, though, that the consensus is that bees > do not communicate with pinpoint accuracy via the dance and that > therefore it's not a "language?" It would seem to me that it might be > more precise to say that the dance is just not a very precise language. > There seems to be reluctant agreement that the bees don't communicate (if at all) as precise as the original works of Von Frisch suggested they do. VF used words like "directly" and "quickly" which don't stand up too well under test. MOre modern research focuses on whether the Dance Language information "biases" the bees to search in a certain area. CRitics of the theory take this to be a major retrenchment. For instance Adrian Wenner, on this list, thinks that recent Dance Language work is all ad hoc: That is, there is no clear and precise statement of the hypothesis being tested. Of course, all one needs to do to answer this criticism is state a hypothesis; and the "bias" versions, which accept some inprecision in bee behaviour, are still precise hypotheses. That is, a precise hypothesis can predict inprecise behaviour. > > I guess the upshot to me, a layperson, is that I really don't > understand what is meant by the phrase "language" here as used by the > experts. Anyone care to fill me in? Ah, there's the rub. Most biologists take "language" in the bee world to be metaphorical. Philosophers, such as myself, wonder what differentiates bee language from human language. And whether bee language, and indeed human language, genuinely constitutes language at all. Human language is generally thought to have these important features: 1. Generative nature: A finite number of symbols (words or actions) can be combined to generate a infinite number of denotations. 2. Grammar: The rules by which the symbols are combined. The bees combine the components of the dance according to rules. When we know the rules, we know what the dance allegedly says. 3. Information carrying: Symbols can be combined according to the rules of grammar so that the symbol combinations contain information. Information has been minimally defined as non-random organizations of symbols. Anyone who thinks that these three things are all there is to language, and who thinks the DL hypothesis is true, probably thinks that bees have a language. Of course, many researchers think that human language is much more complicated, and so they might think that bees don't have language. I don't think that precision is a huge issue within the "is the bee dance behaviour a language?" question. Your example is relevant here: human language behaviour often has imprecise effects. Hope this helps. -- ------------oooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo------------- Phil Veldhuis | If I must be a fool, as all those who reason Winnipeg. MB, Canada | or believe any thing certainly are, my follies veldhui@cc.umanitoba.ca | shall at least be natural and agreeable. David Hume (1739) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Dead colonies/PMS/Beehavers The most amazing report is from a well respected commercial beekeeper >here in WNY. He has kept bees since 1968 and runs over 1000 col. He has >worked as an Inspector and knows dieases well. Last spring he put two new >Apstan strips in each col., in March, took them out in June. He surveyed >his operation in Sept. and found very low varroa counts. He made an above >average crop. He saw nothing unusual last fall. >He lost 80% with PMS symtoms. What are the PMS symptoms? God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, less than 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:26:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Buckfast. wrote 20th Feb. >David, > Maybe you could post adresses of Buckfast breeders in Ontario. There >are many people who don't know of the program up there. And maybe some >info about the program. When I posted my original note it was to warn that 'Buckfast' is not the panacea for what ails bee keeping.Unless you can purchase "closed mated" complete with their pedigree, then they are not 'Buckfast' and as such their performance would be unpredictable. Therein lies your problems. Unpredictablity!! Bees bred in the South often will perform badly in the North, due to our long winters. So this method of buying queens or packages of unknown origin or pedigree will produce unreliable results. There are 3 Buckfast breeders in Ontario, all of whom are licensed, all of whom replenish their gene pool. Barry Davies, RR# 1, Seeley's Bay, ON. K0H 2N0 Rick Neilsen, RR# 1,Stratton, ON. P0W 1N0 Paul Montoux, RR# 1, Hagersville, ON. N0A 1H0 They all sell open mated and closed mated 'Buckfast', prices for open mated around $11 and closed mated around $25 US To clear up a point at no time did I point fingers at any of my fellow Queen breeders!!! Having said my fill I have been requested to forward the following to the list. Why me I fail to understand?? Dear David, Our technician Tillie Welsh brought to my attention the recent communications concerning Buckfast queens maintained by the Weavers. To begin with, if someone really wants to know what the Weavers are doing, then you should contact them directly rather than adding to the rumours that are circulating. Each of the respondents is somewhat correct in what they state. "As I understand the situation" from talking with both the Weavers in 1988 and my visits to Brother Adam in 1989 and 1990, the Weavers have occasionally imported semen from Buckfast Abbey. In addition, to maintain pure breeder queens they have in the past brought in Sue Cobey to do the necessary instrumental inseminations. Finally, in about 1991 or so, apparently in part at the urging of the Weavers, the USDA lab in Baton Rouge imported 14 live queens to their quarantine island in the Gulf of Mexico. Eventually, after these had cleared all necessary tests, they were brought onto the mainland and some or all of them ended up with the Weavers. How they have incorporated that stock into their own stock is a matter for them to answer; I have no information on that. All of that added together suggests that they have been able to maintain the "purity" of the stock. But what is purity? The Buckfast bee is a product of specific selection procedures. The Weavers do not select on exactly the same set of criteria as has Brother Adam, so consequently their bees should be quite different. In fact Brother Adam visited Texas, I believe in the 1980's, and found the "Buckfast" bees being raised there very different from his own. Nevertheless, they are still sold under that name, and a royalty is paid to Buckfast Abbey for every queen (but at a level much lower than is paid by all other Buckfast queen producers; it is less than $1.00 US by my information). I have faith in the ability of the Weavers as well. They are good queen producers, have been doing it for years, and are about as honest and dependable as one can hope for. Their Buckfast stocks are certainly different genetically from those at Buckfast Abbey, and almost certainly different from those purely mated queens being sold from Ontario now. But then, no two queens are identical genetically, so the real questions are the degree to which their stock has drifted away from the European standards, and the degree to which they have been able to control the insemination of the breeding stock. As buyers, you try queens from different sources and find those that satisfy you. Many people like the Weaver Buckfast queens, and there is good evidence that they are much less susceptible to tracheal mites. These queens are open mated, and so are less pure than their breeding stock. Because of some wild colonies in the area (rapidly disappearing from Varroa infestations) there is a bit more variability in the stock than under more isolated conditions. If you are not in the breeding business (queen rearing) business yourself, you can purchase your queens over and over from the same supplier. We too have had some problems getting queens to be accepted. I think that because of their diverse background (Anatolian, sahariensis, British mellifera, Italian Ligurian, etc.) they probably smell quite different, so one must overcome the tendency of bees to reject a foreign queen. These are real foreigners. I agree with the idea of introducing to a queenless nuc (even as one might do for 2- queening), then kill the original queen and fuse the colony back together after the acceptance of the Buckfast (new) queen. I would appreciate it if you would forward this information to the BEE-L network. Sincerely, Dr. Gard W. Otis Ontario Agricultural College University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario CANADA gotis@evbhort.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Bee resistance to varroa Diana Sammataro wrote about T-mites >But please remember that if you start breeding mite-resistant bees you will >also be breeding the mites: they will never go away. Could I ask for a little more reasoning regarding that statement?! How does breeding a T-mite resistant bee breed mites? I agree "they will never go away" but surely all we are doing is producing a bee which can tolerate some T-mites and not die. The UK has had T-mites for many, many years, and by mainly natural selection have arrived at a stable point of symbiosis. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 18:17:56 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Mite resistant swarm queens In-Reply-To: <960222224618_330426710@emout07.mail.aol.com> On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Bill Miller wrote: > Wayne brings up two good points about swarms: > > > How do you know they are truly from a wild colony? > > As to the the origin of swarms, although you can't completely prove a swarm > to be from a feral colony....... I don't believe it matters. What is important is that the colony was healthy enough to swarm. > > How do you keep them from infecting your other colonies with Varroa? Well, as you know by now I have mixed feelings about drug treatments, but this is an opportunity when all the mites are exposed (no brood) so the drugs and other contact treatments (talc et al) work the best. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:02:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Dead colonies/PMS/Beehavers Comments: To: rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu In a message dated 96-02-23 15:14:33 EST, you write: >What are the PMS symptoms? Parasitic Mite Syndrome A lot of dead brood, which superficially resembles American Foulbrood. The dead brood cannot be "roped" as foulbrood, however, and it has only the smell of dead brood, not the "knock-em-down" odor of foulbrood. Uncapping brood cells will usually uncover many varroa mites that dies with the host. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Dead colonies >better but they too show losses that lead one to believe acarine is the cause. >80 colonies placed in the hot room all look exellent at this time. Anyone else >have any knowledge of how indoor wintered bees compare to outdoor >wintered as pertains to tracheal mites? Dr. Medhat Nasr did a great deal of work on the 'thermal regulation of the cluster' to establish why Northern areas had more winter loses to acarine( T-mite). He established, that, bees in cold conditions needed vast quantities of oxygen, to keep up the temp in the cluster centre. It stands to reason, if your lungs are full of junk, then you can't run a marathon either.(That's why I gave up smoking) So, any bees kept in the warm ie. indoors, will find it easier to survive. There are methods of determining T-mite resistance. To avoid posting, *yet again* to the whole group, ask and you will receive, the method and proceedure. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "James C. King" Subject: Terramycin Extender Pattie Stability Hi. Last fall I treated my 140 colonies with extender patties for tracheal mite and AFB control. I am noticing that many colonies now have about half the pattie remaining, but I'm not sure if this terramycin is still active. Should I remove the residue and treat again, or will the residue be effective thru early spring? Does anyone have knowledge or an opinion regarding terramycin stability to help with the above question? Thank you. Jim King, Riegelsville, PA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 18:20:59 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: PMS >What are the PMS symptoms? How 'bout I just give you her address; you can ask her directly..... ;^) BusyKnight busykngt@airmail.net ICBM INcode:N:32.45'W:96.45' Republic of Texas G.E. - We Bring Good Things to Life And a leading manufacturer of Thermonuclear Bombs. Life, we make it Glow in the Dark! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:49:51 -0500 Reply-To: aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin R. Palm" Subject: "W.B.C." Hives? Dear fellow Bee-Lers, I have a question. I have been reading "Keeping BEES" by John Vivian, and in it he mentions a "W.B.C." hive used in England. What is a "W.B.C." hive, is it still in use, and how does it differ from the Langstroth hive?? I'm becoming interested in all kinds of bee lore, and I'd really appreciate any information. Thanks a lot!! Kevin Palm -- Kevin R. Palm | Beekeeper (1 hive, 2nd year) Grafton, Ohio | Red Dwarf/Babylon 5/NYPD Blue/ER fan (25 miles SW of Cleveland) | Visitor to the 100 Aker Wood aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu | Member FNCF/IECC/IECG/NOST ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wesley A Voigt Jr Subject: Re: Sperm Bank? First of all, I would like to say I enjoy hearing so many different subjects being covered. Some are over my head (Only my forth year keeping bees as a hobby, 3 to 10 hives) Some contain information I can use right now, and some information I will probably never use. I like seeing different ways of doing things. I am saddened to hear one person light into someone so hard, but the ideas are worth looking into. I would like to thank all you for all of the help you gave me in refining wax - I have some very nice, light colored wax. I shall keep on improving my methods. I keep on hearing about the loss of feral colonies. Is anyone collecting sperm of different species so there would be less of a chance of losing genetic material that may provide our salvation in the future? Is there much value in setting up a sperm bank? Thanks for all of your interesting conversation Wesley A Voigt Jr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:01:13 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: screen fo mite trap In-Reply-To: <960223090513_330707660@emout07.mail.aol.com> On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter wrote: > In a message dated 96-02-22 23:41:13 EST, you write: > > > I read an article that said that a sticky board > >could be such a devise.... > > Hardware cloth - 1/8 mesh will do fine. If it's cloth, the bees will fairly quickly chew it up and throw it out so you'll have to replace it from time to time. I use a permanently installed steel mesh, but there are some other downsides then -- burr comb on the bottom of the frames and a wax-moth farm under the mesh. Some also think the bees build up slower in the spring. > Put a half inch spacer between > it and the paper, and it won't even really need to be sticky, if the bees > cannot reach it. Some stickiness can be useful if you use a mechanical knockdown like talc or icing sugar where the mites may later get up and walk again (sounds a bit biblical). Many people in the UK brush vegetable oil onto the paper -- works quite well. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: screen fo mite trap In a message dated 96-02-23 20:41:16 EST, I wrote: >> Hardware cloth - 1/8 mesh will do fine. > gordon@APIS.DEMON.CO.UK (Gordon Scott) responded: >If it's cloth, the bees will fairly quickly chew it up and throw >it out so you'll have to replace it from time to time. Sorry about the language barrier. Hardware cloth is a wire screen. A British friend once complained to me, "You Yanks don't speak English; you speak American!" Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 18:25:35 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: A Beginners story: My bees died In-Reply-To: <960222235122_151305767@emout10.mail.aol.com> On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter wrote: > ... varroa is easily diagnosed in a post mortem. If it was the cause of > death, the mites can likely be seen on the adults, and certainly on the > brood. There are usually many on the floor, too. > The are pinhead sized, and > shiny reddish brown. You need a good eye and sunlight, but they can be > easily spotted once you know what you are looking for. They are flat and look like little tiny red/brown crabs with eight tiny legs. Until you've seen them, they could be confused with braula coecci, an almost certainly harmless red fly about the same size but the latter are closer to spherical and have six conspicuous legs. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:29:35 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: War and Peace Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <199602230351.AA16005@internode.net> On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > This is a new medium, and misunderstandings are common because droll > or good humoured teasing and jests come across flat and hard, unless > smilies are attached, and that seems to many to be a little phoney. It does, but they (or s) are just about all we have to replace the body language that we use far more than we otherwise realise. I try always to remember to mark humour and so on like that. We all get the occasional 'off' day, too. It's also easy for something to be misunderstood when a conversation is via the written word. I had a classic example just a couple of days ago -- does "network independent" mean it works with any network, or does it mean it works independently of any network? Best regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk Hampshire, England. gordon@multitone.co.uk Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:53:17 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Dead colonies/PMS/Beehavers In-Reply-To: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Vince Coppola wrote: > I'm getting more reports of colony losses. Some can be explained > by beekeeper ignorance, but some are not. At our last meeting two hobbyists > reported high losses. In one case it was 100% loss of 40 col., in the > other case it was 48 of 50 dead. Both treated with Apistan last fall. > I know them both quite well and inspected their bees myself, so I can > vouch for their capability. > > The most amazing report is from a well respected commercial beekeeper > here in WNY. He has kept bees since 1968 and runs over 1000 col. He has > worked as an Inspector and knows dieases well. Last spring he put two new > Apstan strips in each col., in March, took them out in June. He surveyed > his operation in Sept. and found very low varroa counts. He made an above > average crop. He saw nothing unusual last fall. He lost 80% with PMS > symtoms. > > There is much we don't know and I don't think we have all the tools.> Vince , Your last line should get some people asking some questions.There is much we don't know and thats a fact. I don't know if we have all the tools , is pay dirt. We have tools that need to be turned on.We need to have the tools that we have working. #1 and most important is our researchers.These people need help in getting the funds that they need so they can find a piece of the puzzle.We need them to ask us for help. Everyone needs help of some kind. If the researchers tell us to change something that we have been doing in beekeeping with a test group of hives or when they do come up with something that has been tested and works , then lets do what we can to follow. I know that I'm not going to put all my eggs in one basket like I did last year. I had a 30% lose and that was my cause. But I have been writting to some very helpful researchers and I think some of them are not to far off , but it has to be proven by tests. Some have told me that we will not get rid of the Varroa mite. That sounds fair in the nature of things. We need some bees that can keep them down to a level that will that will not lowwer the productivity of the hive beyond an economic level. This is not a simple problem, it will take a lot of hard work by many people. We can and should recrute those people that need our bees for pollenation. They have a big stake in the out come.Use the tools we have and get more if needed . Lets not get shy about it. If anyone has some names of people that are friends in Washington DC , please drop me some E-mail with there names. We have to have a few. We have some very fine researchers working on the problem right now. I don't want anyone think this is a simple quest, It is very, very complex but it needs to be done. We made the moon , not because it was easy. Have a GREAT day Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 01:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Flames,war & peace Now that we all seem to have bared our souls, let me end all this (since I guess I began it).First, I did'nt mean to divide the group into "for" or "against" Allen or anyone else.Allen has contributed much to the group, I was'nt questioning that. It was the WAY he commented on my post (and others).He has since stepped off his high horse, for which I tip my cap to him.Lets face it, sometimes things get pretty dry in here.As one poster said, somethings are for everyone,some for a few and some nobody understands all of.And thats great because we are sharing knowledge, the most precious resource of all.If smeone is a bit inexperianced,help them as best you can.Even if its only to say "hang in there, it'll get better".The attempts at humor are great if they involve humor with everyone not at someone.Body language is'nt as necessary as tact.Heaven knows I'm arrogant, self centered, opiniated andsometimes just mean.But I try not to be here simply because if you dont like me, you cant just leave.(and should'nt have to)I bear Allen no malice.while I doubt we'll ever go out drinking together, I respect him for his accomplishments.Instead of jumping on people for things, perhaps we should all just recall the words "You say it best, when you say nothing at all".This is only perhaps my 6th or 7th post here in a year.Many times, when I see something I don't agree with, I simply delete it and get on with life.This is (hopefully) the last letter taking up space on this tired subject, so lets get back to our regularly scheduled program. Give peace a chance, Mike "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 07:33:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Terramycin Extender Pattie Stability >Hi. Last fall I treated my 140 colonies with extender patties for tracheal >mite and AFB control. I am noticing that many colonies now have about half >the pattie remaining, but I'm not sure if this terramycin is still active. >Should I remove the residue and treat again, or will the residue be >effective thru early spring? > >Does anyone have knowledge or an opinion regarding terramycin stability to >help with the above question? Thank you. > >Jim King, Riegelsville, PA I'd leave it, as long as the TM wasn't long past its expiration date. The shortening protects it from moisture, so I presume it's more or less "sealed" and stable. Just replace it when it's all gone. Actually, sometimes I find portions of patties that are all dry and crusty which the bees have tried to propolize over, or its covered with dirt. I'll either mix it up a little, adding some new stuff, or just chuck it and replace it. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 03:07:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: "Language" ??? PV>From: Phil Veldhuis >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:14:29 -0600 >Subject: "Language" ??? PV>Philosophers, such as myself, wonder what differentiates bee language >from human language. And whether bee language, and indeed human >language, genuinely constitutes language at all. Well, Phil, I ain't got no philosophizers in my bee kit, but bee's do communicate. I think their language is more basic then some would like to make it out to be. When the weather changes they have no problem letting me know with their barbed rears. But like the dance I do when this happens it could be misinterpret by any native American's watching as a war dance as I fumble around for my veil and more smoker fuel. When the wind is right and the aroma of citrus or eucalyptus nectar is in the air, my bee's get the message an will fly miles to fill up, sometime's so far that more in honey stores are used then honey gained from the fresh nectar gathered. A warm afternoon during the almond bloom will see bee's find orchards miles from any know beehives. There has never been a almond orchard in California that did not have honey bees in the flower's during bloom when the weather is good enough for flight during bloom. I guess the bees communicate with nature through odors, pheromones, and the like. Some of these we beekeepers can learn to identify by experience, others are probably easily identified by the bee's but not experienced by us at all. I am sure each area has it's own set of plants that can be identified by both beekeepers and bee's through olfactory senses. One that has always's amazed me in central California foot hills is the tar weeds which produce a powerful oder in our hot dry late summers when in bloom. This one is so strong that just driving into an apiary and crushing plants as you do will confuse the bee's so much they will actually quit working. I have always wondered why and could it be that the added burden of aromatic fumes disrupts the bee's to the extent that bee's in the field can not find their way back? The oder of tar weed plants is so strong that it may mask the hive oder itself and in commercial apiaries, queenless and weak hives are easily identified after a tar weed flow as they will be dead. I suspect that the first wave of nectar/pollen collector bee's out of the hive each morning follow their noise to some extent, and if noting is in the wind them range out and visit new flowers if they can be found each morning and return with the good news or bad news and other's get the sent of nectar or pollen from these bee's and follow it back out in the field. The bee dance is fun, reminds me of beekeepers here in this great desert when it rains, more then once I have joined other beekeepers in the rain dance. One reason we all have tin roofs on our honey house's is so we don't miss a drop, and it only takes a few to empty the shop to stand in and marvel at the rain. We only have one short wet season, and any rain is promise of honey in the bucket for us. A honey wind is no fun to work in but one of the most productive locations I ever had was so windy that I would have to take extra help to load the bees out using a boom loader with two men on the end of a rope, and these hives were not light. This spot was so windy that one would not expect bee's to fly much at all. It was at time enough strong enough to blow 150 lb hives of bees off the truck. I only used the location for a few years as it was on a cultivated hillside and I could not make it up the hill if it was being farmed. Anyway the wind was so great here the bees would land on fence posts down wind from the apiary and the wild buckwheat they were working after over flying the apiary. These clusters of bee's would grow to be swarms as big as a man and they would find their way home when the wind died down, sometimes days later. On a moderate wind day the loaded bee's would come in and land in the short dry grazed off grass fifty to one hundred feet from the hives and march in like ants to the closest hives. Looked like a real disaster from the drifting stand point but it evened out as the wind changed directions from day to day. I don't know what this has to do with bee language other then the signal that nectar was out there for the collection was great enough to overcome elements that would keep a prudent beekeeper at home. I believe much of this is on the wind, a honey wind so to speak, bee's communicate with nature, and if they do a dance it's my guess it could be more a celebration of a full pollen pouch or honey sack, and not really a message to all the other fielder's, as there really is not that much dancing going on in the hives and you have to believe that if information was being passed it was also being decoded and passed to all the field bee's in some way not explained by the bee dance itself. The bee's do dance, thats a fact.. I have just seen too many things that happen in a beehive and the environs it is kept concerning pheromones and oder's that cause me to believe that communications if you want to call it that is a complicated system of detecting and interpretation of oders. I think some more scientific study is being done on this in Europe at this time, maybe someday we will more about these systems. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... "Having found the flower and driven a bee away, ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:31:45 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Deb & Greg Kalicin Subject: Re: Sperm Bank? At 08:06 PM 2/23/96 -0500, you wrote: > First of all, I would like to say I enjoy hearing so many different >subjects being covered. Some are over my head (Only my forth year keeping >bees as a hobby, 3 to 10 hives) Some contain information I can use right >now, and some information I will probably never use. I like seeing different >ways of doing things. I am saddened to hear one person light into someone so >hard, but the ideas are worth looking into. > > I would like to thank all you for all of the help you gave me in >refining wax - I have some very nice, light colored wax. I shall keep on >improving my methods. > > I keep on hearing about the loss of feral colonies. Is anyone collecting >sperm of different species so there would be less of a chance of losing >genetic material that may provide our salvation in the future? Is there much >value in setting up a sperm bank? > > Thanks for all of your interesting conversation > > Wesley A Voigt Jr > > |==============================================================================| | HARMONY FARM | | Greg & Deb Kalicin "With an eye made quiet by the power | | 273 Randall Road Of HARMONY, and the deep power of joy, | | Lisbon, NY 13658 We see into the life of things." | | Fax #(315)393-4452 William Wordsworth | | Tel #(315)322-4208 | | E- Mail Address: HARMONY@northnet.org | |==============================================================================| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kay Clay-Dewey Subject: Re: A Beginners story: My bees died recent losses due to varroa means I need to re-queen soonest. We are in the start of the citrus flow here and I desparately need to do this. Does anyone know if the apiaries on Hawaii have e-mail addresses, what the address is and what the cost and time are? I would need at least 2 queens and 2 packages of bees. Many thinks Kay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kay Clay-Dewey Subject: Re: Mite resistant bees continued >> add in answer to my questions,keep quiet & brood over how your genius is >>> overlooked by the world. >>> Mike >>I enjoy Allen's comments. If you do not, then you need not read them. >>Eric >Eric, > From what I've heard from many others, you seem to be in the minority. >L. A. Downey Who cares if he is in the minority? He is entitled to his opinion as are you. It takes little effort to be courteous, whether one agrees or not. Kay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kay Clay-Dewey Subject: Re: Mites, Apistan, chemicals Gentlefolk and fellow beekeepers, I realize that this may seem very unconnected, but please bear with me. As I read all the various postings on 'the mite problem' I was suddenly struck by the similarity to an infectious disease. (a side interest of mine as an old paramedic in the Air Force during 'Nam) During the first world war many countries, including ours, were overwhelmed by "Spanish Influenza".As this illness blazed its way across continents wiping out as much as 3/4 of the population, there seemed to be no way to protect against it. Medical personnel dealt with it, as we do with mites, by treating the symptoms, since we had no idea of how else to deal with it. Now days we have flu shots, and the flu adapts every year, and we get new shots. Somewhere in this process it would seem that there is an answer. So far we treat with Apistan strips and Terramycin, and this treats the symptoms, SO FAR. As with flu, the mites are going to get used to the 'anti-bodies' (the chemicals we use) and adapt. But in the mean time, the flu has not had the same impact on our society since we found out about anti-bodies, and we no longer lose 3/4 of our population to its depredations yearly. We hae learned to adapt, and so has the flu, it would seem that we could follow somewhat of the same process in relationship to Varroa and Tracheal mites. We(humans) learned to deal with the disease, the bees can not do so in a concerted manor, but WE can. Is anyone following where I'm leading here? I just haven't figured out how to apply the lesson in practice. Bee Happy, and Bee watchful Kay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 12:41:23 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: The SUPERbee Project I've been mulling over the suggestion that everyone pick out the best bees in their outfit in terms of tolerating mites (and hopefully honey production) and ship them to a central isolated location for evaluating and breeding in a non-treated or minimally treated environment. I forget who first proposed it, but this is the best idea I've heard. It has many pluses: * Many people select for their own idea of robust * Bee stock comes from all sources preselected * All varieties and strains of the mites and viruses will be there * A few scientists could oversee what might even be honey producing apiaries under operation of regular beekeepers I've considered the mechanism too. I don't think whole hives could be transported across country two or three at a time, but the queens could be sent for introduction at the site. Perhaps beekeepers could donate equipment and time - flying in for a few days or weeks at a time. Even if resistance or complete immunity to mites is not achieved, there might well arise a strain of bee that is capable of withstanding the viruses and other stresses that accompany the mites. The next problem is distribution if a superior stock is developed, because many countries will allow bees to leave, but not allow them to be imported. Mites and diseases have managed to take advantage of our modern communication and transportation systems. Can we use these same advances to get ahead of them? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 21:44:46 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: "Language" ??? In-Reply-To: <9602231914.AA08654@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca> On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Phil Veldhuis wrote: > Philosophers, such as myself, wonder what differentiates bee language > from human language. And whether bee language, and indeed human > language, genuinely constitutes language at all. > > Human language is generally thought to have these important features: > 1. Generative nature:..... > 2. Grammar:..... > 3. Information carrying:..... > > Anyone who thinks that these three things are all there is to language, > and who thinks the DL hypothesis is true, probably thinks that bees have > a language. Of course, many researchers think that human language is > much more complicated, and so they might think that bees don't have > language. However, 'body language' is typically much more restricted than that, but still gives clear messages to the recipients (of whatever species) and often involves 'conversations', usually revolving around who is in charge here. Many animal trainers learn the body languages of the animals they train and can communicate certain things startlingly well. It is easy for me to accept that body language is a real language. It is easy for me to accept that the 'dance language' is a development of body language. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 15:18:38 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Terramycin Extender Pattie Stability Comments: To: "James C. King" In-Reply-To: James : A study done by Martha Gilliam and Robert Argauer in 1975 (ABJ 115 : 230-234) reported that Terramycin in extender patties is stable at brood nest temperatures for at least 11 weeks. I'm not sure if 1/2 a patty is enough of a treatment though. Someone else might be able to answer that. Adony Melathopoulos Simon Fraser University Vancouver, British Columbia CANADA melathop@sfu.ca On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, James C. King wrote: > Hi. Last fall I treated my 140 colonies with extender patties for tracheal > mite and AFB control. I am noticing that many colonies now have about half > the pattie remaining, but I'm not sure if this terramycin is still active. > Should I remove the residue and treat again, or will the residue be > effective thru early spring? > > Does anyone have knowledge or an opinion regarding terramycin stability to > help with the above question? Thank you. > > Jim King, Riegelsville, PA > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:48:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: BEE ESCAPE HOLE I am requesting,that the members on the list read my message for the second time,due to a malfunction on my computer. I lost all my mail messages. My original question was,bees are "balling"on top of the bee escape hole, and should I feed the bees,or is there another problem? The temp. is only in the 40's. I am afraid that at this temp.,I might due more harm,by opening the hive,any further. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:41:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: The SUPERbee Project Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <199602240821.AA24722@internode.net> On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > I've been mulling over the suggestion that everyone pick out the best > bees in their outfit in terms of tolerating mites (and hopefully > honey production) and ship them to a central isolated location for > evaluating and breeding in a non-treated or minimally treated > environment. > > I forget who first proposed it, but this is the best idea I've heard. > > It has many pluses: > > * Many people select for their own idea of robust > > * Bee stock comes from all sources preselected > > * All varieties and strains of the mites and viruses will be there > > * A few scientists could oversee what might even be honey > producing apiaries under operation of regular beekeepers > > I've considered the mechanism too. I don't think whole hives could > be transported across country two or three at a time, but the queens > could be sent for introduction at the site. > > Perhaps beekeepers could donate equipment and time - flying in for a > few days or weeks at a time. > > Even if resistance or complete immunity to mites is not achieved, > there might well arise a strain of bee that is capable of > withstanding the viruses and other stresses that accompany the mites. > > The next problem is distribution if a superior stock is developed, > because many countries will allow bees to leave, but not allow them > to be imported. > > Mites and diseases have managed to take advantage of our modern > communication and transportation systems. Can we use these same > advances to get ahead of them? > Hello Allen and all Happy Beekeepers I thought Allen has a very good point. I did see some posts that lead one to belive that beekeepers would be in the bee breeding business. We have researchers and they understand the complexity of breeding the honey bee. We have many beekeepers with many hives. We just need a list of behaviors to check for as beekeepers. This could turn into a mess if it not organized. Researchers need as many samples that meet what behaviors they need for a breeding program. We can do some simple things as beekeepers to help out the researchers right now. Vince brough up a point of some people that are good beekeepers and use the strip , still loose a lot of hives. We need to write down what we are doing and what we are seeing.Dr. Mike Burgett sends out a winter loss survey every year in the north west.He asks 8 questions and the info is confidential. He has been able to glean some good info from his survey.Like, when should you treat for Varroa in the fall. Allens last line is where we will beat the mite. We may never get rid of them but they will not kill all our bees off. I bet we could use this machine. I don't have any Idea how hard it is to set up a list that would be dedicated to Varroa or even if it would be worth it. But we have to collect good info , if we are to beat the mite.We need to know when Apistan is starting to fail us. Not wait until we loose 50,000 hives. We better have plan two in place. I have been told that formic acid looks like plan 2 in the US. I don't know if that is true ,but there are beekeepers getting ready now.We really have to get off of the chemical fix. Honey is very special, It needs to be clean and pure. If you want to check out where that comes from, just open the good book.- Everyone Have a Great Weekend Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:17:31 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Veldhuis Subject: Q: In-Reply-To: from "Gordon Scott" at Feb 23, 96 06:17:56 pm Question: I understand that there are two processes used to produces sugar syrup from corn: one process involves an acid, the other an enzyme. It has been suggested to me that the acid process results in a sugar syrup that is possibly midly toxic to bees. Any info you might have on this would be appreciated. Phil -- ------------oooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo------------- Phil Veldhuis | If I must be a fool, as all those who reason Winnipeg. MB, Canada | or believe any thing certainly are, my follies veldhui@cc.umanitoba.ca | shall at least be natural and agreeable. David Hume (1739) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:48:20 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Veldhuis Subject: "language" followup. In-Reply-To: from "Gordon Scott" at Feb 23, 96 06:17:56 pm I've rec'd several commentaries to my "language" posting. Since they are all of the same vein, I thought I would followup to the group. 1. Several people have commented that not all communication falls under my description of language. Recall I said language was generative, grammar driven, and information containing. 2. One person suggested that "body language" was certainly communicative, and since bee dances were analogous to body language, that the bee dances are language too. I don't think that body language is a language. First of all, there is no grammar (no rules of composition) nore can it denote an infinite set of expressions. However this might just meed that I am wrong on language. There is, however, a bigger issue. 3. Donald Davidson is a philosopher of language famous mainly for pointing out that the one thing that separates language from other communication is that the sender of the linguistic message "means" the content of the message, while non-linguisitic communication desn't require the sender to have any intention of sending that message, or any message. Some examples: The body "language" of poker players is a crucial element of the activity they engage in, although each participant tries to avoid communicationg anything at all (or sending deceptive signals). Males of different species go through elaborate displays of behaviour in attempts to gain sexual access to the females of their species. Their behaviour communicates their fitness for mating, even though they don't intend to communicated their fitness. For instance, elk roar, and this roaring requiress significant lung and chest muscle fitness. Any elk that can produce a decent display of roaring is likely a healthy specimin. The elk communicates his fitness, although that is not likley the content of the message: if there is any, is likely "here I am!" shouted long and loud. Generally, information can be communicated without any intention on the part of the communicator. The fitness of the elk or the quality of the poker hand isn't meant to be communicated. On the other hand, In linguistic communication, ceterus paribus, the communicator intends for the communicatee to get the message. There are, of course, many examples of communication gone awry, where the message intended insn't the message rec'd, but that is all obvious failures in a complicated system; we occasionally misunderstand eachother. Now, if "intentionality" (what philosophers call what something has if it is intended) is crucial to language, as davidson claims, then it seems doubtful that bees have a language, since it seems unlikely that their very small neural systems are capable of "intentions". Bee dances are analogous to body language, and neither are languages. This is the standard biological view of these matters, by the way. Intentionality is a philosophical complication that I hadn't wanted to burden bee-l with, as we don't need another round of philosophical cunundroms. If you want to take this up further, email me direct, I'll summarize to the list. Phil -- ------------oooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo------------- Phil Veldhuis | If I must be a fool, as all those who reason Winnipeg. MB, Canada | or believe any thing certainly are, my follies veldhui@cc.umanitoba.ca | shall at least be natural and agreeable. David Hume (1739) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:29:44 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Varroa Assuming that report is correct the strips were left in for a period of some nine to sixteen weeks. We are advised not to leave them in for more than six weeks. Tests have shown that from then on the pesticide level is very much reduced so we are exposing the mites to a sub-lethal dose, a sure way to encourage resistance. All strips should go in straight from the packet, removed at six weeks and destroyed. In addition all strips should be out before the supers go on to avoid carrying the residue into the nectar cells. The bees were surveyed in September. I cannot comment for WNY but here bees are breeding merrily in September so a large proportion of mites present will be in the cells on the larvae and will not show up on a count. The only way would be to sample the capped brood. The last few brood cycles will become the bees that have to live through the winter and feed the larvae when the queen resumes breeding in the new year. Researchers report that one or two mites on a wintering bee will lower its ability to produce brood food and shorten its life by one third. Thus we hear many stories of visibly strong stocks going into the winter and dwindling away to little or nothing by the spring. For the time being I think autumn treatment with Apistan is a must, timed to have the maximum effect to keep the wintering bees as free as possible. It is accepted now that the mites can carry a range of viruses detrimental to the bees. If they should be carrying a particular vicious strain it is sheer hard luck on the beekeeper. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:29:46 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: William Broughton Carr < What is the W B C hive> I intended to send this to the individual who asked and then I decided a little English history might interest a few others. W B Carr was an eminent amateur beekeeper of the late last century, editor of a bee magazine and full of ideas for better beekeeping. Using L L Langstroth's discovery of the bee space he put forward his version of the perfect beehive in 1890. This was a hive with deep brood combs and shallow supers made with fairly thin timber but with a separate outer wall of telescopic "lifts" surmounted by a ridged roof and usually painted white. It stood on four legs and looked very elegant in the garden. Because of its legs and double walling it was awkward to move around but in those days there was little migratory work. Even so some early commercial beekeepers favoured it. Because of Carr's eminence as a beekeeper the hive became extremely popular, I started beekeeping in 1930 and it was still then the queen of hives. I used them until the outbreak of war when my beekeeping ceased for the duration. After the war single walled hives came into general use because they were cheaper and less clumsy. The W B C still has a few faithful followers, still available from appliance makers and often found empty as a feature in a flower garden. Most countries have long since standardised on one or two types but we have grown up with six different hives with six different sizes of brood frames. Not very sensible. Standardisation is still a long way off. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 09:10:54 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Casey Burns Subject: Stingproof suits In-Reply-To: <199602250505.VAA27990@kendaco.telebyte.com> Due to my bee sting allergy, I am in need of a totally bee sting proof suit, in order to safely and comfortably work my bees. I am 5' 11" and weigh 240 lbs. My experience with most bee suits is that they aren't totally sting proof. What can people recommend? Many thanks! Casey Burns cburns@kendaco.telebyte.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: The SUPERbee Project This is my first posting so bear with me. Tom Rinderer with the USDA bee lab has asked for any survivior queens from any abandoned or feral colony here in the United States. He plans to use them to produce a mite resistant bee. As for the project mentioned we at Hybri-Bees are doing what you have proposed with the Starline Breeding program now. The stockholders run approx 100,000 col. of bees and they send queens that they find that may be a better bee to Hybri-Bee in Dade City, Florida USA for evaluation. We run the queens in tests to determine if they are indeed better and if so we use Instrumental Insemination to try and fix the desirable characteristic into inbreed lines for the formation of hybrids. Should anyone that finds a better bee like to send the Queen of the colony to us at Hybri-Bee we would be happy to evaluate them along with the others. We would even be happy to supply Breeder queens of the stock you send. We at HBI do custom breeding and the price is reasonable. Our Industry needs to support this aspect to ensure a healthy future. The problem is a question of support of the organization's that breed and try to maintain the stocks. At HBI we have close to 18 stocks of bees and it is expensive in time and funds. Without a selection program, selected characters are quickly lost through genetic dilution in natural mating. In short what you have wished for in SUPER Bee is in place, all be it in a slightly different format. What we need is support from beekeepers to make it work. People tend not to even try new things until they are proven. Then they tend to bee extremlly critcal of the project. As an example, the release of the USDA yugo mite resitant stock in the USA. If the breeding programs are not supported at the lowest level, "the purchase of the queens", it becomes to to expensive to make any improvement in the stock. One other question you might ask abut the super bee is, How much are you willing to give for her. It is refreshing to see that the beekeeping population is looking for a genetic solution. We need the support at all levels educational, reasearch, and commerical producers to overcome the trials and tribulations that we can expect in the future with the mites, BPMS etc. I applaud your intrest in the breeding of better bees. Hybri-Bees, Dean M. Breaux ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 14:36:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: Stingproof suits >Due to my bee sting allergy, I am in need of a totally bee sting proof >suit, in order to safely and comfortably work my bees. I am 5' 11" and >weigh 240 lbs. My experience with most bee suits is that they aren't >totally sting proof. What can people recommend? > >Many thanks! >Casey Burns >cburns@kendaco.telebyte.com > I am also allergic to beestings. Bates Organic,in Moncton, N. B., Canada has a onepiece coverall with built in veil which is very satisfactory. Be careful that the gloves you use are also stingproof, and that separate pieces of clothing are suitably tucked in, to prevent bees from walking inside with you. The experience of one getting inside the hat with me, while I had a colony open, and thousands were in flight, left no choice but to let them sting. I am told that there is no guarantee that one would always live to tell the tale. As ne young man said a few years ago: One must take a few left turns in life, and beekeeping is one. Good Luck ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:37:52 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Bee thermoregulation and tracheal mites ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- To: Multiple recipients of BEEL Gary wrore: > I've been having more than my share of acarine related winter losses > the last 4 years . Way more. What I'm wondering is are there truly acarine > resistant queens out there? I bought queens from 4 sources last year > all of whom claimed at least some resistance. Initial spot checks on my > outdoor wintered colonies show up to 50% loss in some yards. With the boxes > still heavy. Lots of dead bees out front. Bees I sent to Calif. have fared much > better but they too show losses that lead one to believe acarine is the cause. > 80 colonies placed in the hot room all look exellent at this time. Anyone else > have any knowledge of how indoor wintered bees compare to outdoor > wintered as pertains to tracheal mites? Dear Gary and Recipient of bee-L, Colony thermoregulation is a critical feature of honey bee biology and survivership. Bees actively thermoregulate their cluster in winter and summer. Lindaur (1954) and Southwick (1987) showed that bees can keep their cluster temperature at 35 C under ambient temperatures ranging from -80 to +70. Tracheal mites as all you know live & reproduce in the tracheae. These mites puncture the trachea to feed on the hemolymph (blood) of the bees. The number of developing mites and adult mites in the tracheae can increase to the point they block the air passages. An additional observation was that colony mortality execceds 60% during winter month in northern climate. These two observations trigged us (M. Nasr, P. Kevan & E. Southwick) to look at the impact of mite infestation on bees' ability to thermregulate their cluster at 5 and -20 C. we kept cluster of 300 bees with different levels of mite infestations(0 - 90% infested bees) in an incubator at 5 C. Then, we decreased the temperature to -20 C for two hours. All groups of bees were provided with sugar syrup to feed and produce heat when it was necessary. We monitored the oxygen consumption and cluster temperature during the incbation period using a complex electronic system. We found the following: 1. the Oxygen concumption was relatively constatnt at 5 C. When temperature was lowered to -20C the oxygen consumption of the non- infested bees (0 infestation) was increased by four times. Whereas only slight increase in the oxygen consumption was detected in infested bees. 2. Cluster temperature of all groups of bees was around 27C when the the bees were incubated at 5C.In the uninfested group temperature was 30C. When the temperature decreased to -20C the cluster temperature droped significantly to temperature ranged from -19 (frozen) to 22 in the infested groups. whereas the cluster temperature of the uninfested group stayed around 30C. 20- 100% of the bees in the infested groups entered a chill coma and died within 12 hours after taking them out of the incubator, only 1.6% of the bees died in the uninfested group of bees. These were the first evidence to show the failure of tracheal mite infested bees to maintain the cluster temperature when the bees were incubated at low temperature (-20C) and may explain increased winter mortality in norther climate. In practical terms, any way to reduce the impact of cold temperature on bee colonies will help to reduce the winter mortality of infested bees. Mehdhat Nasr, Ph.D. Research Scientist Ontario Beekeepers Association, Guelph, Ontario, Canada e-mail: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:17:12 PST Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Acarine, Alergy & WBC Hives Greetings Bee Liners T-Mites. Yes in UK We do seem to have many bees that are immune or tolerant of the Acarine mite. I have kept 20+ colonies for 20+ years and no problems with it so far! It does appear occasionally though and there is a small controversy here as there is no officially approved treatment for it. My own conviction, given our fortunate circumstances, is that any hive sick with acarine should be requeened immediately. Certainly the Queen heading that colony should be culled. Selective breeding implies active removal of genetically suspect strains as well as selection of queens showing positive qualities. Bee sting allergy. Surely the only advice to anyone who is truly allergic to stings is DON'T KEEP BEES. One sting will kill you if you pass into anaphylactic shock. Chapter 27 of Dadants Hive and the Honey Bee has an excellent description of the complexities of allergic reactions. But one thing is certain. There is no sting proof bee suit. Beekeepers always get stings. WBC Hives Congratulations to Sid Pullinger. An excellent history of this excentric hive. Horrible to work but pretty to look at. I have an empty WBC in a flower bed. It looks great and helps to sell honey to passers by. But beauty is again only skin deep. Regards to all. Thanks for Honey Treat recipes! Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon. UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:15:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Stingproof suits I was also declared allegic to bee stings, but my allergist said I could keep my bees. After all, one can always get stung by walking in shorts through a field of dandilions or clover. Check again before you get into a hot suit to work your bees. As a postscript, after 5 years of venom therapy I was declared desensitized. The allergist who handled the case appreciated the occaisional present of honey, but wouldn't accept it as payment for her services. Oh, well. W. G. Miller Gathersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: A Beginners story: My bees died Diagnosing a dead beehive that you've never seen is a bit tricky, but I am surprised that nobody (besides myself) has considered tracheal mites a likely probable cause. The symptoms (hive dies in winter with lots of honey) sure sound a lot like the tracheal mite kills I have seen (including some of my own when tracheal mites were the only kind we had to worry about). My experience with Varroa kills has been that they happen during the summer, and are noteworthy because the hive "crashes" from full strength to dead over roughly a two week period. Anyway, at present U.S. beekeepers have to use independent treatments for both, even though they may both be used at the same time. Treat for just one mite, and the other will get you. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:08:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: sugar PV>From: Phil Veldhuis >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:17:31 -0600 PV>Question: PV>I understand that there are two processes used to produces sugar syrup >from corn: one process involves an acid, the other an enzyme. PV>It has been suggested to me that the acid process results in a sugar >syrup that is possibly midly toxic to bees. PV>Any info you might have on this would be appreciated. Hello Phil, First if any sugar purchased from a sugar company that anyone thinks has caused damage or hurt their bee's at any time they should "please" notify their sugar companies technical department as they are like the Maytag Man and are just waiting to hear from you. The feeding of manufactured invert sugar syrups from what ever source (corn, beet, cane) or process is very important to the sugar company's as it comes mostly during their off season and is a good and very competitive market for them. The sugar manufacture's have developed much information on feeding sugar to (honey "sugar" bees) and anyone contemplating feeding sugar should ask for the technical sheets on any or all the products they are interested in. One on one help is available all you have to do is ask any US sugar company. As for the acid process of inverting sugar, I believe that all hfc syrup made from corn is enzyme inverted, in any case all manufactured sugar is sold with a guaranteed analysis and all should check the spec sheet on the products they have a need for the the chemical breakdown. All sugar manufactured in the US is sold by chemical analyst and is 100% guaranteed. This analyst is ongoing during the manufacture process and is an important part of manufacturing and marketing sugar and the backbone of the industry. Most users, and bee feeders should need no more then a eye for color and refractometer to check the sugar they purchased at time of delivery. In the past I have purchased as many as 10 tanker loads a season myself, and buy it according to price and the use I intend to put it to. I have never seen any unexplained loss from feeding sugar syrups purchased through manufacturers representatives or direct from the plants. Millions of pounds are fed each year by beekeepers in California and I know of no ill effects of any kind to bee's from the sugar itself. I am sure a few hives have been killed by the beekeepers own kindness by feeding too much or the wrong type of sugar at the wrong time, but this is not the fault of the sugar, only the use it was put. I would not worry about any type of hf or hfc sugar, but would always check with other beekeepers to see what gives them the best results and at what cost. Many beekeepers this area of California use blends of sugars, and almost all adjust the moisture and many add TM and other inert ingredients to their liquid bee feeds to prevent and control certain endemic bee health problems. Most all use blending tanks, mostly small ss 500 gallon milk tanks to mix whatever they want to add. Gallon can's are filled four or more at a time using pumps or air pressure. Most use about five gallons a season depending on the year. I know of no beekeepers in this area that depend on sugar for winter stores, it is mostly used to increase brood rearing, dispense bee health products, and in emergency feeding in the spring. It is also used to increase flight in the almond bloom to keep growers happy. The cost of all this feeding is horrendous and requires a good cash flow or a friendly banker. The successful feeding of sugar to bee's and developing product use has been a collaboration of efforts between bee feeders, sugar manufactures and is a good example of private enterprise beekeeping research, and is ongoing. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:26:39 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Begining Beekeepers New Beekeepers. I have been reading posts from people that are in beekeeping for there first couple of years. I asked myself , how did I get help with understanding what my bees were doing. I read books. Books are ok to a point. The first book that started my interset in bees was a National Geographic , 1945-45. I didn't do the reading, my Grandfather.I knew then that I wanted bees some day. When I was married and had my own place, it was time for the bees. I did the thing with Sears, you by there kit of boxs and every thing but the bees.The bees would be sent to you in april. They send a first lessons of beekeeping book with the kit. You know the male ego, we read instructions After we are in trouble. I did read the first 35 pages. The bees came in the mail and I was on cloud 9. I put the bees in there new box in a sunny location about 8a;00 AM. I watched them for a little while then went into th house. At 10:00 AM the bees were on page 50 of the book.( swarming) They went way up in a fir tree. I did not have anyone around to talk to , but I did find out that I should have read the whole book. I even took my 30-06 out and blew the top of the tree off. I wanted my bees. I did call down south and asked for another swarm. I found myself reading more and more about Honeybees.Beware, not all books have the same opinion on what to do with your bees.As you can see on this list ,we don't all agree on almost anything.But thats ok. We make progress because we have different views.You as a beekeeper will see all different types of behavior with your bees. You can ask questions and read it out of a book.This list has more than any books. The important part is you learning about your bees. Then sone one new will be asking you questions about honey bees. There are many more questions than answers. Don't ever foreget that we all start at the begining. All of us have made mistakes and we learn by our mistakes. When you can ,get with other beekeepers. My 3rd year of beekeeping we had a state meeting in Bellingham Wash. I would stand around and listen to the old timers talking about bees. You don't learn with your mouth , its your ears and eyes. I felt that I could not add anything to this group of old timers.We had a few state apiariy inspecters. Old Charlie was the inspecter for the Olympic peninsula which is the land to the west of Seattle.Charlie was in his 80's and very much respected as a beekeeper.He blew my world in ten seconds. He walked right up to me and shook my hand and said,hi son you have more honey on your hives than anyone else on the peninsula. I had ten hives then and put them in the best location I could find in the area. You can imagine what happened to me ,I must have said I don't know 50 times. That I don't know is still going on for me.New questions come up all the time.This mite problem has run many people out of beekeeping.You have to follow the rules , use apistan strips just the way they recommend using them. The bees will do what they have been programed to do. Bee space is bee space. You give them 1/2 inch they will put wax in it.The more you observe the better you will get. We are natures keeper. Bees are a part of nature.Take good care of your bees and help others. We need to express our concern of spraying insecticides all over the place. Where I live , is out in the country and I gave my neighbors a little talk on my bees and a jar of honey.They don't spray unless thay call me. Plus if they just read the label is a help. I'm very glad my Granfather read the article to me on honey bees.I have enjoyed them for a long time now. I hope to be around a lot longer to learn more about the honeybee. Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 17:36:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Re: Mite resistant swarm queens In-Reply-To: <<960220200530_328123446@emout08.mail.aol.com> Regarding looking for mite resistance from feral colonies: I know of a wild colony that lives in the wall of an abandoned house (or at least did last fall) in an area with rather harsh winters. Judging from the stain around the hole bees have been living there for quite some time. If it has been the same colony the whole time it may be a genetic gold mine as far as varroa resistance is concerned. If they're still around this spring, is there any way for me to try and "tap into" this colony (without hacking into the wall)? If I put some sort of bait hive nearby, and should the colony swarm, will the swarm likely to be "lazy" and choose it or will they be more likely to choose another site a mile away? How do I make a bait hive attractive to a swarm? -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 00:11:10 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Varroa treatments In southeastern Pennsylvania, USA, many people are treating twice a year for Varroa. One treatment before the spring nectar flow (which begins in mid-April) and a second treatment in late summer. Our main nectar flow is from tulip trees (Liriodendron tulipfera) in the month of May. Autumn Apistan treatments have made it necessary for us to extract earlier, mid-summer for me. Tim Sterrett Westtown, Pennsylvania (Southeastern) USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu 39 55 51 N 75 33 08 W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:29:13 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Stoops Subject: Re: PMS In-Reply-To: <199602240020.SAA20519@server.iadfw.net> Ya'll know the politically correct term for PMS, doncha? Hormonally Homicidal. Michael Stoops Anson Jones Elementary School 2311 Canal St. Houston, TX 77003 On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, BusyKnight wrote: > >What are the PMS symptoms? > > How 'bout I just give you her address; you > can ask her directly..... > > ;^) > > BusyKnight > busykngt@airmail.net > ICBM INcode:N:32.45'W:96.45' > Republic of Texas > G.E. - We Bring Good Things to Life > And a leading manufacturer of > Thermonuclear Bombs. Life, we make it > Glow in the Dark! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vicki Chalk Subject: Re: Stingproof suits Stop keeping bees -- it isn't worth the risk of dying. Vicki Chalk Puyallup, WA VChalk@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:42:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Bee Boost? Just for a change I have a question! There is a product on the market called Bee Boost with QMP. This is a product which is intended to replace the queen under certain circumstances. Has anyone tried this? Any knowledge at all would be appreciated!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:41:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: A Beginners story: My bees died >>W. G. Miller wrote Diagnosing a dead beehive that you've never seen is a bit tricky, but I am >surprised that nobody (besides myself) has considered tracheal mites a likely >probable cause. The symptoms (hive dies in winter with lots of honey) sure >sound a lot like the tracheal mite kills I have seen (including some of my >Anyway, at present U.S. beekeepers have to use independent treatments for >both, even though they may both be used at the same time. Treat for just one >mite, and the other will get you. At long last, I have been quoting this since I first subscribed to the list. If you read Dr. Nasr's recent post on Thermal Regulation then you have the answer. If something can't breath then nothing else matters, as the ad says. Just because you can't see T-mites doesn't mean they no longer exist, you might have both!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:57:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sean Eric P. & Pattie A. Robinson" Subject: Help...Dead Bees, Full Comb This is my first spring with two hives. I checked them the other day and all was lost. Only a few bees, and the upper hive body almost full of honey. I have already ordered new bees for April 15. My question, what do I do with the full frames. Should I freeze them until a the new bees arrive? I'm concerned that if I leave them out, ants and other critters will get at them. Thanks, Sean Vine Grove, Kentucky, USA It's a great place to BEE! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:14:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Keith A. Smith" Subject: Replacement Costs Could I get some replies on the cost of a 3 lbs, replacement bee package w/qeen. A supplier in Wausau, WI is asking $37.00 per package. It would be great help to see what the cost is elsewhere in the U.S. so I can see if I'm getting a fair competative price. Any Replies would be helpfull. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:03:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Stingproof suits There ain't no such thing as a sting-proof suit. If you are REALLY devoted to keeping bees, the only alternative you have is desensitization. I developed an allergy to bee stings after we had already spent $50,000 starting our beekeeping business. Naturally, I had a real incentive to solve the problem. I went to an allergist, and he put me on a desensitization program of bee venom shots. I avoided ALL contact with bees for the next 8 months, until I was regularly receiving the equivalent of 2 bee stings in a shot once a month. Now, I just make sure that I get stung once a week or so to keep my immunity up. This is not a cheap solution....the first visit to the allergist was $600. (They got cheaper after that). However, it is the ONLY solution for anyone who has developed an allergy. As my allergist told me on my first visit, "This is your life we're talking about here." Either take up model trains, or go see an allergist. There is no middle ground. Shawna Roberts Gypsy Bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:03:15 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Bee Boost? ---------------Original Message--------------- Just for a change I have a question! There is a product on the market called Bee Boost with QMP. This is a product which is intended to replace the queen under certain circumstances. Has anyone tried this? Any knowledge at all would be appreciated!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** I plan on triing it this year with some of my splits, I will let you know the results. Tim Townsend Stony Plain AB TTOWNS@IBM>NET ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 23:29:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Bee Boost? Hi David- Bee Boost with queen mandibular pheromone is a product sold by Phero Tech Inc., in Delta, B.C. Their telephone number is 604 940-9944. Bee Boost is used mostly to attract foragers to crops that need insect pollination, and can be delivered in any number of ways. I remember their literature contains a photo of a helicopter spray rig dumping out the stuff by the tankload onto an orchard. Presumably the QMP makes the bees curious and they spend more time messing around in the flowers than they would otherwise. I only know one grower who has used it in orchards (last year) and he was pleased with the increased bee activity. He still got lousy pollination, but he didn't blame the bees for it. Some beekeepers use it to quiet the bees in queenless packages or in bulk bee boxes by making them think that a queen is present. For this use it comes in little cotton wicks containing a small amount of the stuff. You just drop it into the box, or hang it by the little plastic tag it comes with. I thought about trying it out in five-frame nucs that I rent to seed companies for pollination, in which the beehive is confined inside a nylon mesh cage along with the plants the breeder wants to cross. Most nucs come out of the cages in pretty poor shape, and have to be requeened. I was hoping to be able to save the cost of the queens by using queenless bees and a Bee Boost wick. Unfortunately, there are many other chemicals that bees need to feel comfortable, including the ones that are provided only by developing brood. More importantly, the wicks only last about a week, and the cost of revisiting the cage and replacing the wick two or three times exceeded the cost of a queen. On the other hand, there have been some researchers in Canada who have been successful in using queen pheromones with queenless nucs in pollination cages, so there are apparently other situations where it appropriate. The person you should talk to at Phero Tech is Doug McCutcheon. There is also a fellow at Simon Fraser University who works with the stuff for pollination, but his name escapes me. He has written an article or two in the ABJ in the last couple of years. What is it that you want to do with this stuff? Kevin Roberts ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 01:24:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Mite resistant swarm queens In regards to the feral Bees found in the wall. If you know of some one that can Instrumentally Inseminate Queens, it would be simple to collect the drones in the Pm with a peice of queen excluder over the hole in the wall. they not being able to pass through the excluder material could be caught returning to the hive. The only other thing that I can suggest is a hammer and some nails. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Charles Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Re: Replacement Costs Keith A. Smith wrote: > > Could I get some replies on the cost of a 3 lbs, replacement bee package w/qeen. > A supplier in Wausau, WI is asking $37.00 per package. > It would be great help to see what the cost is elsewhere in the U.S. so I > can see if > I'm getting a fair competative price. Any Replies would be helpfull. > Thank you. The cost is very fair. We pay $34.00 for the same deal here in Ga. -- ********************************* * Charles (Rick) Grubbs * * digital@avana.net * * Douglasville, Ga SE USA * ********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:26:20 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Gentlepeople: I am a hobbyist that has currently two hives of Italian HB that look like they might make it through the winter. (Although the Spring is young.) This coming year I will be trying several different types of honeybees (Italian, Carniolan, Weaver Buckfast) to see for myself the differences in behaviour, production, etc. I would like to be somewhat structured in my evaluation of the different types so am garnering information about what to watch for, how often I should observe, etc. Italians have been ok so far and may continue to be the breed of HB that I continue to use, but since I had no experience with any others, I am running my own experiment. I live in Dayton, Ohio, USA (39.90N). For the scientists and breeders on the Lists, this is probably old boring stuff and probably the information that I am going after has been done to death, but I am a hobbyist that is just exiting his fourth winter and I am curious to experience the differences myself. I have never done any type of scientific study although I have evaluated vendors and products at work. We use a structured approach there with measurement points, evaluation criteria, weighting of evaluated traits, etc. I would expect that there already exists out there somewhere something similar for Honeybees. Ideally what I would like is some type of form or evaluation checklist or procedure that you have used to quantify the differences in bees. In Quality Assurance terms, some way of gathering "metrics" on the different bees. If nothing like that exists, your suggestions as to what items and criteria should be included in my evaluation would be helpful. At least then I wouldn't miss something because I was too narrow minded or ignorant. Any help and guidance you all could offer that would help to provide some structure to my evaluation would be greatly appreciated. Also at the end of the 1996 season, if anyone is interested in what I discover I would be willing to share what I learned. Cheers, Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:16:54 -5000 Reply-To: reischer@cpcug.org Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Blair Reischer Subject: A Beginners story, next chapter: AFB is the cause.. Thanks for the half dozen direct responses I received to my query about my dead bees. Although one respondent warned about diagnosing bees he hadn't seen, the guesses were primarily varroa or trachial mites. One respondent, Wayne Esaias, invited me to cross the Potomac to visit the Montgomery Co Beekeepers Monday night class. I did so last night, and brought a frame from my hive with me. (In a plastic bag). Even though I had read and heard about American Foul Brood, there is nothing like having an expert beekeeper point out in person, on_my_own_ frame, what the symptoms of AFB are. Sure enough, the larvae "roped" when we broke a capped brood cell. And the smell is indescribably strong, especially when inspecting a frame indoors that had been sealed for a day. It's an expensive (and sad) lesson to learn, but the way to do it is with my own bees, with an expert looking over my shoulder.... In a room full of beekeepers, if you wave an AFB-infected frame around, it is amazing how quickly they back up . I had the same reaction. If the spores live for up to 50 years, then anything I touched while working the bees might be contaminated....scary... The investigation turns to why and how AFB got to my hive. I started a single hive with all new equipment and a package from Weavers (a widely respected outfit) in the spring of 94. I lost the queen in the spring of 95, replaced her, and treated with Apistan. They almost made it thru two complete seasons. One possibility is that my bees robbed honey from a nearby hive, and brought AFB with it. I may be in a "pocket" of AFB. I am trying to find our state bee inspector, who ought to know these things, and should be able to find others with AFB, and destroy their hives. He also should be able to assist me in fumigating my equipment so it can be re-used. (I have sealed the hive so other bees can't rob it). The beekeepers in Montgomery County, Maryland, all seemed to have a low opinion of the state beekeeping inspection services in Virginia. In two years as a hobbyist/beekeeper in Arlington, Virginia, I have come across lots of resources and help in Maryland, but none in Virginia. Why is this? That's the end of the chapter. Now, I have time to replace the equipment (or fumigate the old?) and reorder a bee package for an April 15th hiving. But if my unknown neighbor's hive or a feral colony still has AFB, am I buying more misery? thanks to all, Blair Reischer Arlington, VA. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:33:27 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Replacement Costs The four major things affecting the cost of packaged bees are 1) Supplier 2) Strain 3) Quantity 4) Postage Rule number one regarding suppliers is KNOW YOUR SUPPLIER. This is a hard thing for a beginner to do and such knowledge unfortunately usually comes from trial and error. Better yet is word of mouth, although when this perennial question was last asked, list members were reluctant to publicly denounce suppliers who have been less than sterling. And it was also the case that some members were dissatisfied with the very same supplier who received great reviews from other members. Imagine a lack of common opinion among beekeepers - what a concept! The final resolution to this issue was shop around and find three or four suppliers that are satisfactory to you. You might peruse the BEE-L logs from this time last year to get some recommendations - there were a few. Strain: Prices differ for different strains of bees. Italians will cost less than "Buckfasts" and some suppliers offer hybrids and double hybrids that will also cost more. Reasons for this are the cost to breed the hybrids, royalties paid to the original breeder (as is the case with "Buckfasts") and supply and demand. Suppliers offering mite resistant strains are able to get a better price for their bees as the beekeeping public is willing to pay more for the chance that their bees will have a greater chance to survive. The demand for the claim is high so the supplier is able to cash in, and if their claim of mite resistance is true, cash in they should! Be aware that the only available mite resistance (as far as I know) is resistance to tracheal mites, which are a lesser threat than varroa (although still a very serious problem). The search for varroa resistance continues and breeders are working to cultivate hygienic behavior to combat the vampire mites, but success has been elusive and for the time being varroa resistance is a claim that should be eyed with caution. Quantity: you will pay less per package if you order more packages than you will for one or two. Perhaps you have a beekeeping buddy with whom you can pool an order. Although your total order will cost more, your price per package will come down a few bucks if you order 5 as opposed to 1 package. If you can get the quantity of packages way up (perhaps 100) your cost per package will drop significantly. Postage: Costs to ship bees have sky rocketed in the past few years. You will incur the same cost to ship regardless of who supplies your bees. If you are able to procure bees from a reliable supplier within driving distance you will save a substantial amount on postage. The key words here are "reliable supplier". It makes no sense to save the postage by driving to "Fly by Night Apiaries" only to have your bees fail. If you can't rely on good bees from a local supplier, pay the postage. So, does this answer the question? I suspect not, but it does give you some important things to consider. As far as what supplier offers the lowest bottom line, get a current copy of ABJ or Gleanings and check the advertisements. Prices will range from mid $20 to low $40 (US dollars). As far as the other issues, as always, CAVEAT EMPTOR! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:20:16 -0800 Reply-To: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Conrad A. Berube" Subject: Bee Boost Re: Bee Boost and QMP >The person you should talk to at Phero Tech is Doug McCutcheon. There is >also a fellow at Simon Fraser University who works with the stuff for >pollination, but his name escapes me. He has written an article or two in >the ABJ in the last couple of years. I think the fellows you're talking about are Drs. Mark Winston and Steve Mitchell at SFU. I've seen some of the work and heard Mark speak (at the Ent Soc of Canada meeting here in Victoria in October) and the results (with respect to boosting pollination) were not as cut-and-dried as the researchers would have liked (worked some years and not others-- speculation was that it worked to attract bees when there were not other good nectar sources in the area competing for the bees). If you're interested do a literature search using their names attached to other relevant key words. - Conrad Berube " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT " ` 1326 Franklin Terrace _- -_`-_|'\ /` Victoria, B.C. _/ / / -' `~()() V8S 1C7 \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (604)480-0223; fax (604)656-8922 / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '` ^ ^ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:55:11 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Terramycin Extender Pattie Stability At 03:18 PM 2/24/96 -0800, you wrote: >James : > >A study done by Martha Gilliam and Robert Argauer in 1975 (ABJ 115 : 230-234) >reported that Terramycin in extender patties is stable at brood nest >temperatures for at least 11 weeks. I'm not sure if 1/2 a patty is >enough of a treatment though. Someone else might be able to answer that. > >Adony Melathopoulos >Simon Fraser University >Vancouver, British Columbia >CANADA > >melathop@sfu.ca You could be right about '1/2 a patty not enough'. However, it could well depend upon the size of a 'patty' and the concentration of active ingredient in the 'Patty'. I don't raise this issue to be picky but to lead up to another question. I would be interested in comparing recipies and patty sizes. Unfortunately my recipe is at the Honey House but i will send it along in the next few days. Meanwhile, if a few members could provide recipies and doses it would be most interesting. Eric Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:56:21 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Bee Boost? In-Reply-To: <960226232906_334164045@mail02.mail.aol.com> David : Pherotech has two products that were developed in conjunction with the Apiculture lab at Simon Fraser University. Bee Boost is consists of the entire blend of the queen's mandibular pheromone embeded in a cotton wick, and Fruit Boost is the blend in a formulation which can be sprayed on crops to enhanse pollination. From my own work I found that the blend, when applied into colonies was able to significantly decrease the initiation of queen rearing in queenless colonies. The ability of the pheromone to to inhibit queen rearing makes it possible to suppress swarming when it is applied to colonies in the spring. An additional use of the pheromone in a beekeepers oppeartion is in the use of the pheromone in place of a queen when shipping packaged workers (as Kevin has already mentioned). On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, (Kevin & Shawna Roberts) wrote: > I thought about trying it out in five-frame nucs that I rent to seed > companies for pollination, in which the beehive is confined inside a nylon > mesh cage along with the plants the breeder wants to cross. Most nucs come > out of the cages in pretty poor shape, and have to be requeened. I was > hoping to be able to save the cost of the queens by using queenless bees and > a Bee Boost wick. Unfortunately, there are many other chemicals that bees > need to feel comfortable, including the ones that are provided only by > developing brood. More importantly, the wicks only last about a week, and > the cost of revisiting the cage and replacing the wick two or three times > exceeded the cost of a queen. On the other hand, there have been some > researchers in Canada who have been successful in using queen pheromones > with queenless nucs in pollination cages, so there are apparently other > situations where it appropriate. When Steve Michell looked after our bees at Simon Fraser he tried to hold workers in a mating nuke until he had his next batch of queens ready. I'm not sure how that worked out. At any rate, I agree with you Kevin, over a long period of time queenless workers probably need more than just queen pheromone to stay. What happened with the bees in your cages ? With regards to the short life of the wicks, I believe Pherotech is currently formulating a long-life slow release version of Bee Boost. You'll have to check with Doug McCutcheon at Pherotech about that (604) 940-9944. > I only know one grower who has used it in orchards (last year) > and he was pleased with the increased bee activity. He still got lousy > pollination, but he didn't blame the bees for it. Fruit Boost works best on crops that bees are not visiting much. This may be because of poor weather conditions during the bloom, or varieties which produce poor or no nectar (e.g. Kiwi whose flowers do not produce nectar). If the weather is good and hot, and the crop attractive I don't believe it has such a major effect in drawing bees into the field. > The person you should talk to at Phero Tech is Doug McCutcheon. There is > also a fellow at Simon Fraser University who works with the stuff for > pollination, but his name escapes me. He has written an article or two in > the ABJ in the last couple of years. The fellow at Simon Fraser University is Mark Winston, although Heather Higo also has played an important role in the development of queen pheromone products at Simon Fraser. A good all around article on how the stuff works was published in American Scientist (1992 80 : 374-385). Good Luck Adony Melathopoulos Simon Fraser University Burnaby, British Columbia CANADA melathop@sfu.ca (604) 291-4163 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:00:38 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Arne Ahlin knv Subject: Re: Stingproof suits In-Reply-To: <9602270308.AAmaingate.ki.se10717@maingate.ki.se> If you have developed an allergy, i. e. antibodies reacting against antigenes it is your life you have on stake.Go visit your MD for a serious discussion and do not think of stingproof suits as your as a life-line, unless you are not fond of life Arne.Ahlin@knv.ki.se ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:14:43 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Re: Replacement Costs Hi Keith, The "standard" price around here (NW Washington State) seems to be about $30.00 for 3lbs and a queen if they're picked up, or $45.00 for the same if they're mailed to you. Our bees come from northern California. There are no suppliers here because it's too cold. You should avoid bees that are shipped a long distance; this is very hard on them. Kris Bruland At 09:14 PM 2/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >Could I get some replies on the cost of a 3 lbs, replacement bee package w/qeen. >A supplier in Wausau, WI is asking $37.00 per package. >It would be great help to see what the cost is elsewhere in the U.S. so I >can see if >I'm getting a fair competative price. Any Replies would be helpfull. >Thank you. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:27:25 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Casey Burns Subject: stingproof suits In-Reply-To: <199602270504.VAA31167@kendaco.telebyte.com> Please post useful suggestions - I have received over a dozen messages suggesting that I stop keeping bees due to my allergy. FYI I am going through desensitization and plan to keep bees..... Therefore, suggestions that I stop keeping bees aren't really helpful at this point! :) What I need is info on what bee suits people find really effective. Thanks, Casey Burns ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:12:19 EST Reply-To: rgendrea@foxboro.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roland Gendreau Subject: Dead Hive Both of my hives also died this winter with similar symptoms. In late December, I noticed some dead bees in the snow in front of the hive. In early January, I noticed lots of dead bees clogging the entrance. Both hives were treated for Varroa with apistan strips. There is lots of honey remaining in the comb. In examining the comb, I found a few frames that had a number of dead bees head first in their cells. Some of these were in a roughly circular area. Two questions: -What would cause them to die in their cells this way? Does this look like Varroa or Tracheal mite or ? -What can I do with the honey that can be extracted from the deeps? There is too much honey to leave in the hive as there will not be enough comb available for brood. Thanks in advance Roland Novice Beekeeper in Southeastern Massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 12:50:27 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: gary oberton Subject: Spring Cells I wish to use my own cells for spring splits this year. I can raise good cells, I will have drones available. However living in Minnesota time for buildup is short. I need to produce honey on these colonies. Have any of you northern beemen had experience with this? I will appreciate any advice you can give me. Thanks Gary Oberton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:59:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: stingproof suits Comments: cc: cburns@kendaco.telebyte.com Casey: If you are going through the desensitization process, you need to avoid bees completely until you are stable. There is no suit in the world that anyone can recommend that would be safe until you are desensitized. Then, when you start working with bees again, you need to wear LESS effective suits, not more effective suits. You need to get stung more often, not less often, in order to maintain your immunity. Before I developed my allergy, I usually worked with a full suit, because I didn't like getting stung. Nowadays, unless I am loading or unloading a truckload of bees, I don't wear a suit. I just wear a veil. No gloves. I still don't like getting stung, but if I want to keep bees, it is the price I must pay. If you wear a good suit, you will just end up getting bee venom on the suit. If you inhale the bee venom when it dries, that could end up triggering you back into an allergy again. Useful suggestions from someone who has been desensitized: Keep your Epi-pen with you at all times, avoid all contact with bees until you are stable, and wear the least effective suit possible when you begin working bees again (if you don't get stung once or twice each time you work your hive, the suit is probably too effective). Good luck, and always keep in mind that this is your life we're talking about here. Shawna Roberts ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:33:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Spring Cells >I wish to use my own cells for spring splits this year. I can raise good >cells, I will have drones >available. However living in Minnesota time for buildup is short. I need >to produce honey >on these colonies. Have any of you northern beemen had experience with this? >I will appreciate any advice you can give me. > >Thanks Gary Oberton I've had excellent queens reared by making strong nucs (4+ combs heavy with capped brood and bees and provided with plenty of food, eggs present) and placing them in deep hive bodies over strong colonies, screen board between. (Watch for swarm cells - you can use them for the nucs or remove them.) The lower colony keeps the upper nice and warm, and they have a small (1-2") upper entrance. If they make lots of cells sometimes I'll split the nucs further once the q cells are capped. Anyway, the point of this was originally to keep the parent colonies from swarming, taking 2-4 frames of capped brood and some bees away and replacing them with drawn combs. Combs from different hives can be combined to make the new splits strong. This has worked well, and the parent colonies seem to make honey like they never lost anything. Its amazing how fast the upper "nuc" will explode in population once all that capped brood starts emerging. About 10 days after making them up, they can be moved to new stands, as the new queens will be getting ready to emerge. If you make up the nucs with already developing cells, you might want to wait til you see that the new q is laying already. Then move them. The field bees reinforce the lower colony and aren't lost. These new colonies with young queens will collect excellent late summer/fall crops. If your main flow is earlier, you can try making these splits in late April instead of May, when I do. Problem here is that it's too early and the (parent) colony isn't quite bursting yet -- not enough to split. It is also probably harder for them to maintain temperature. Make the split too early, and then a month later they might try swarming again. In my experience, that is. THese new colonies are supered over single brood chamber and excluder. They seem to collect alot more late flow honey than the parent colonies; they have real "get up and go." Food for thought.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:58:36 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Buckfast Installation? Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Gentlepeople: There have been a few comments on the net recently about Buckfast bees. Without getting into the discussion of what is and what isn't a Buckfast bee, I have a question that results from an off hand side note to one of the participants of that discussion. According to some of the comments, Buckfast acceptance can be a problem. Now I have a problem. I ordered two Weaver Buckfast queens with the intention of splitting my two Italian hives and requeening the splits with the Buckfast queens. The purpose is to eventually get two Buckfast hives going. What can I expect and how can I encourage the Buckfast queen acceptance? Cheers, Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:22:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 25 Feb 1996 to 26 Feb 1996 Re. Fruit Boost Kevin, the 'fella at Simon Fraser University who has been doing some work on Fruit Boost' is Dr. Mark Winston. Winston and Dr. Keith Slessor of SFU were the scientists who isolated and deciphered the chemical composition of queen mandibular pheremones (QMP). This eventually led to the development of a commercial preparation called Fruit Boost. Fruit Boost has only been researched and recommended as a 'pollination enhancer' in blueberry, pears and cranberry. Neither Winston nor Pherotech have ever made wild claims about phenomenol crop yield and quality increases. Winston and his group focused on a few crops that have often had pollination difficulties, either because of the crop itself (pears and cranberries have relative low values of bee attractiveness) or because prevailing weather at time of bloom was often poor (blueberry and pear). The results of years of research has shown that under good weather conditions, these crops are sufficiently well pollinated and there is either a non- significant or non-measurable advantage in using Fruit Boost. Yet, Fruit Boost has shown remarkable differences in crop yields and quality when pollination had to take place under poor conditions. I think it is important for everyone to recognize the nature of the product. Fruit Boost is designed to alter or influence bee behavior and since behavior is determined by a wide array of internal and external factors, it is remarkable that the product does what it does under some conditions. This type of work is at the very forefront of research and has enormous potential in the control of insect pests. I am speculating here but the successive stages in the life cycle of Varroa is also governed by the timely release of pheremones and perhaps in the future some pheremonal product can be identified and manufactured in the control of this pest. What makes this so attractive is that pheremones are naturally occurring, act at exceedingly low dosages, and are target specific. For more information about Fruit Boost, you may contact Pherotech at ph. (604) 940-9944 / fx. (604) 940-9433. Dr. Winston can be reached at, Simon Fraser University (604) 291-4475 Dept. Biological Sciences (604) 291-3496 Burnaby, B.C., V5A 1S6 regards, Paul van Westendorp pvanwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:21:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? Mark Egloff wrote > I am a hobbyist that has currently two hives of Italian HB that > look like they might make it through the winter. (Although the Spring Don't let anyone discourage you. I think what you are attempting is first class, and power to your elbow. I'm sure Dr. Nasr wont mind me supplying the following. Selection Index. Traits to be evaluated, on a points basis. 5. Exceptional 4. Excellent 3. Average 2. Fair 1. Poor. Traits Suggested: Winterability a. Colony strength first inspection after winter. 5. 10 frames of bees or more. 4. 8-9 frames of bees 3. 6-7 frames of bees 2. 4-5 frames of bees 1. 2-3 frames of bees. b. Stored Food. 5. Very heavy none needed 4. heavy none needed 3. enough food 2 no food, needs feeding 1. no food and starved Brood Viability 5. >95% solid brood 4. 90-95% solid brood 3. 80-90% solid brood 2. 75-85% solid brood 1. <75% solid brood Temperament 5. Bees and queen are very quiet, no sting attempts 4. Bees and queen are calm and 1-2 sting attempts 3. Bees and queen fairly calm 2-4 sting attempts 2. Bees and queen show some running 5-10 sting attempts 1. Bees and queen Excited and running Cleaning Behaviour 5. Clean bottom board and brood nest 4. Clean bottom board with slight debris 3. Little debris on bottom board 2. Fair amount of debris 1. Messy bottom board. Disease Status Examine brood, check and note. AFB should be eliminated. Honey Production Note on the check list total supers added. We use a plastic pocket on on top of each inner cover, every time the hive is opened we note and record all of the above. Obviously we note the weather (temperament), queen right, and anything else which might be useful later. One final trait you might like to add, as your are dealing with various races, Propolis production. If you can produce a bee which doesn't produce vast quantities of the sticky stuff would be an advantage. Any more traits? I think this is a valuable exercise and should be encouraged!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1.* * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:29:54 +1259 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Pfund Readers Fellow Bee-Liners, A question or two. Does anyone know another method of determining a Pfund reading other than using a Pfund reader, ie. using a photospectrophotometry ? Does anyone know of another methods of determining honey floral composition ie. by % of floral type other than by pollen ratios or by gas chromatograph analysis. Regards Robert Rice Apiculture Service Manager (South Island) Ministry Of Agriculture Lincoln, New Zealand. E-mail : ricer@lincoln.mqm.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:00:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Replacement Costs AM>From: Aaron Morris >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:33:27 EST >Subject: Replacement Costs More inputs on: AM>The four major things affecting the cost of packaged bees are #1) SUPPLY & DEMAND The demand this area is very high, and has been for several years, and most bee breeders in this area have received all the orders they can fill for cells, bulk bees, queens, packages, and nucs. This is not the major bee breeding area, but we have 3 commercial bee keepers who are good bee breeders, all orders are cash and picked up at the producers honey house or bee yards. > 1) Supplier > 2) Strain > 3) Quantity > 4) Postage RULE #1 ORDER EARLY! Or you may be not able to get what you want when you want it. AM>Rule number one regarding suppliers is KNOW YOUR SUPPLIER. This is a Most bee breeders I have worked with over the years help each other fill orders and who's bee's and queens you get can only be guaranteed when specified. For commercial beekeepers it is more important that you get your bee's when needed then who produced them as long as the queens are fully mated, which is a problem early in some seasons. The best story on this was told to me by one of the best bee breeders in Californian I ever worked with who supplied breeder queens to the majority of Northern California, now keeping bees with the Lord. Anyway at a bee convention one of his satisfied customers sought him out to tell him how good his queens were that year, and how bad the queens were he had got from his previous supplier. Later alone as we lifted our cups we had a good chuckle as that season he had run short of queens and filled this guys order from queens from a neighbor who he knew to be one of the best queen breeders and whom he supplied many breeders. This was the same person the customer was complaining about. Different strokes for different beekeepers. California bee breeding moved from Southern California to Northern California years ago and prospered because their market was in the North. Business at times was more then they could handle, and I remember my first Canadian customer as he flew down here to check out my operation and to be sure I could supply his truck loads of bees. He was satisfied that I could and when the time came I shipped his bees. WOW he was happy, got the biggest crops he ever got, and bigger then all his neighbors so he just knew my stock was the best he had ever got. I was also proud to have been the supplier of such super bees on one of my first big shipment north. The next winter he ordered his truck loads of bees. A few day before I was to shake them he called up and canceled. He had found them for twenty five cents less and one hundred miles closer. I learned my first of many lesson's in the package bee business..Get a DEPOSIT with that order. AM>Strain: Prices differ for different strains of bees. Italians will cost A lot of the difference in bees is in the eye of the beeholder, but if you believe there is a difference thats OK, means their advertising is working. There certainty is in quality difference depending on the type of season and the experience of the bee breeder. Most of these differences can not be measured from season to season. Color is about the only real difference, but you can find some difference in temper. At one time we had a bee breeder on the central cost who advertised super bees. He sent out flyers, and visited around the country, attended all the bee meeting and did the best sales job I have ever seen. He had graduated from a good university and looked and acted like a educated beekeeper, and we all were impressed. His adds were so big and great I decided that I had to visit him and see how he got such good queens maybe I could improve my own. We spent the whole time in his office as he showed me how he did the advertising. END of Story, as that was his whole thing advertising and his bees were no difference except in price and the fact was he could not deliver because of the demand his advertising created and soon went out of business moving off shore to start up again for a time. Bees are one product that should be purchased on the experience of other beekeepers with any the stock of any particular supplier if you have none of your own. A commercial beekeeper or bee breeder will purchased queens from several sources to test and having done this for many years will base his purchase decisions on the results of these test shipments. Makes it hard to get started in the bee breeding business, but most of us start by helping fill established breeders orders here in California where we have many bee breeders. In a way that does give the buyer two quality controls, the actual producer and the producer-seller and I know few who would sell junk. AM>Quantity: you will pay less per package if you order more packages than The beekeepers who get the best deal pool their orders to make up truck loads. We even have a couple of beekeepers here who the last few years have made several trips east each spring, for the fun of it, as they have more productive things to do then drive cross country, but they enjoy the brake and meeting all the beekeepers who come to pick over the load. They are not taking orders so I won't drop their names.. AM>Postage: Costs to ship bees have sky rocketed in the past few years. HIGH COSTS Those who supply the stock in any agricultural industry reap the greatest rewards. Price out ostrich eggs if you think bee's are high. As the price of honey has increased to all time highs bee breeders are taking the opportunity to raise the price of their own products that because of the nature of the work of producing and selling bees reduces their own honey production. So they say so it must bee... ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ This l l tagline has l l a few l l bees in it... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 00:19:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Re: A Beginners story, next chapter: AFB is the cause.. Comments: To: Blair Reischer In-Reply-To: <199602271330.IAA07713@cpcug.org> Blair, I think the MD. bee-keepers are being a bit snobbish.Va. has excellent bee-keeper support.Dr. Rick Fell of Va.Tech is available via e-mail for help w/ questions.The state has several inspectors for different areas of the commonwealth, I suspect your problem is because you live in Arlington which is not a hot-bed of agricultural activity.Check the phone book for the nearest extention agent, they can help link you to the state sources. Good luck, Mike High "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 01:47:48 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Umlauft Subject: Cause of death. To: Blair Reischer Subject: Blair Reischer's, AFB was the cause of death From: Stan Umlauft Fumigate AFB infected equipment so it can be re-used??? Here in CA we must kill the bees and burn equipment in an 18" deep hole then cover the ashes. The only exeption is if you have nice new hive bodies or covers & bottom boards they can be scraped clean and completly scorched black inside. I have lost equipment to AFB myself so I do have a great deal of simpathy for your loss. However I must recomend replacing the equipment -- STANU@HONEYBEE.COM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:40:52 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Stephen Birchall (Stephen Birchall)" Subject: Re: Cause of death. >To: Blair Reischer >Subject: Blair Reischer's, AFB was the cause of death >From: Stan Umlauft > >Fumigate AFB infected equipment so it can be re-used??? > >Here in CA we must kill the bees and burn equipment in an 18" deep hole >then cover the ashes. >The only exeption is if you have nice new hive bodies or covers & bottom >boards they can be scraped clean and completly scorched black inside. > >I have lost equipment to AFB myself so I do have a great deal of simpathy >for your loss. However I must recomend replacing the equipment > AFB spores can lay dormant for dozens of years upwards, so you can't store equipment and hope the problem goes away either Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:40:42 +22324924 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Re: A Beginners story, next chapter: AFB is the cause.. In-Reply-To: from "Michael Lance High Sr." at Feb 28, 96 00:19:33 am > > Blair, > I think the MD. bee-keepers are being a bit snobbish.Va. has > excellent bee-keeper support. Mr. Robert Wellemeyer is your VA inspector. His office number is: 540-347-6380. Tell him I said hello. (I used to be a VA inspector--the Shenandoah valley area.) If you had any clue as to how precarious the honey bee program in Virginia hangs, you'd not be knocking it, but supporting it. When I was an inspector all I wanted to do was help people: they called me. They had some idea how to find me. Bee inspection in VA is through VDACS. Check your facts before going world-wide. Blair, if you care about honey bee inspection, and beekeeping in general, why not try to work with the exsisting system in your state? Or you could move to MD. :) Adam Entomology 324 Price Hall VA Tech, Blacksburg, VA 24001-0325 -- _________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:46:58 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? In-Reply-To: <199602272129.QAA09694@segwun.muskoka.net> On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, David Eyre wrote: > Mark Egloff wrote > > I am a hobbyist that has currently two hives of Italian HB that > > look like they might make it through the winter. (Although the S > I'm sure Dr. Nasr wont mind me supplying the following. > Selection Index. Traits to be evaluated, on a points basis. > 5. Exceptional 4. Excellent 3. Average > 2. Fair 1. Poor. > Traits Suggested: > Winterability > a. Colony strength first inspection after winter. > 5. 10 frames of bees or more. > 4. 8-9 frames of bees > 3. 6-7 frames of bees > 2. 4-5 frames of bees > 1. 2-3 frames of bees. > b. Stored Food. > 5. Very heavy none needed > 4. heavy none needed > 3. enough food > 2 no food, needs feeding > 1. no food and starved > Brood Viability > 5. >95% solid brood > 4. 90-95% solid brood > 3. 80-90% solid brood > 2. 75-85% solid brood > 1. <75% solid brood > Temperament > 5. Bees and queen are very quiet, no sting attempts > 4. Bees and queen are calm and 1-2 sting attempts > 3. Bees and queen fairly calm 2-4 sting attempts > 2. Bees and queen show some running 5-10 sting attempts > 1. Bees and queen Excited and running > Cleaning Behaviour > 5. Clean bottom board and brood nest > 4. Clean bottom board with slight debris > 3. Little debris on bottom board > 2. Fair amount of debris > 1. Messy bottom board. > Disease Status > Examine brood, check and note. AFB should be eliminated. > Honey Production > Note on the check list total supers added. > > We use a plastic pocket on on top of each inner cover, every time > the hive is opened we note and record all of the above. Obviously we note > the weather (temperament), queen right, and anything else which might be > useful later. One final trait you might like to add, as your are dealing > with various races, Propolis production. If you can produce a bee which > doesn't produce vast quantities of the sticky stuff would be an advantage. > Any more traits? I think this is a valuable exercise and should be > encouraged!!> Hello Beepeople, This is a very important post that David put out to everyone.You HAVE to keep records on your bees if you want to really learn more about them. A little plug for the A I Root Co. , they have a Colony record book that is all layed out and covers most everything that you need to check. It has an area that you can write notes in each time you check your bees. I'm working on a program on my computer that will weigh the different traits, so I can track my queens overall or special traits. I take a tape recorder ( a small $ 30 one) out with me when I work the bees. The recorder has a pause button on it, I just push the button and tell the machine what I have seen and what I have to do next time I return to the hive. We could get very deep in this evaluation problem. We need to have a better understanding on what is genetic and what the enviornment has to do with the behavior that we are seeing.That is very important if you want to have a good evaluation. We need to feed back to the breeders what we see and if we have problems.We can help them improve. I get some queens from a diffrerent source every year. I tried 15 ARS-Y-C-1 carniolans and would say that they were overall average. I used a couple to breed from and one queen that I raised has turned out A+. 1 out of 100 +. I checked for Varroa and only found a few. I did not treat the hive with any medication. They look good as of a week ago when it warmed up to the mid 60 's F. The researchers need data on what we are seeing. It would be wonderful to have more information on file that people could upload and download. When you live close to Bill Gates and Micrsoft you think about using the computer as an every day tool. The problem is, control of the data. I have been in Biology files that were working well.It was a very small subject , like bee eggs. Bee Happy Roy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? I take a tape >recorder ( a small $ 30 one) out with me when I work the bees. The >recorder has a pause button on it, I just push the button and tell the >machine what I have seen and what I have to do next time I return to the >hive. Being as I am new to the business, I have been wondering how I would keep track of my hives when I get into this full time & my hive count goes up. I have been playing with the idea of using an electronic notebook with a database program where I would only have to write the hive number and up pops it's history which can then be updated. Has anyone tried this or know of any software that would work in this application? Granted these notebooks are in the $600-800 US range but it might pay for itself by streamling recordkeeping. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, less than 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:23:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "William Nelson@Aol.Com" Subject: Re: Cause of death./Is there a better way? Does anyone know if it is permissable to use radiation sterilization to sterilize AFB infected equipment? This is used quite successfully in the drug and device industry and you can acheive some pretty high Fo's (log reductions of bacti populations overtime. It is unlike ethylene oxide sterilization where the temperatures and penetration of the sterilizing gas may damage the equipment or not penetrate to kill the bacteria. Is this an area that has not been explored, is too expensive, or are we just not up to speed in the technicological area. Its a shame to destroy good equipment when it could probably be saved using this system. There are many places in the US that custom sterilize using radiation for a fee. I think the minimium at at least one facility is $400 per tote load which is a pretty good amount of space. Bill Nelson. Hobbist Animal Nutritionist North Liberty, IN. USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:45:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Cause of death./Is there a better way? In response to the question is there a better way. Yes, in Florida I have Irradiated hives. We irradiated a total of 71 hives in march of 94. We have not had any AFB in the hives as of yet. The State of Florida requires that we burn hives with AFB how ever they have let me keep the hives and have checked them every 6 months since. The state has not changed the law yet, but with an Irradition facility here in the state have allowed us on experimental basis to use it it looks cost effective. the down side of the treatment is that the scale will still be present. So unless you can prove that the hives where irradiated, every time a bee inspector finds it they want to burn it. The cost in 1994 to treat 71 deep hive bodys with bottom boards lids and frames was $550.00. As you can see it is cheap compared to fire and effective. You must first extract all of the honey before you irratiate the hives because they don't have permission from food and drug to irradiate the honey. I have all the absorbed dose info here if you are interested. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:35:43 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jay Jones Subject: Re: Cause of death./Is there a better way? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:23:59 -0500" <960228192358_434100362@mail06.mail.aol.com> > Does anyone know if it is permissable to use radiation sterilization to > sterilize AFB infected equipment? This is used quite successfully in the > drug and device industry and you can acheive some pretty high Fo's (log > reductions of bacti populations overtime. > It is unlike ethylene oxide sterilization where the temperatures and > penetration of the sterilizing gas may damage the equipment or not penetrate > to kill the bacteria. Technically both radiation and ethylene oxide would be doable. The size of the equipment, volume to be treated at any one time, and cost of other options would most likely make them uneconomical. Both radiation and ethylene oxide have many regulatory restrictions as well as equipment demands. For even a large operation it would not likely be economical. **************************************************************************** Jay H. Jones BITNET: jonesj@ulvacs Assoc. Prof. Biology and Biochemistry Internet: jonesj@ulvacs.ulaverne.edu Biology Dept. University of La Verne 909 593-3511 x4040 office La Verne, CA 91750 909 593-3511 x4604 lab **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:53:06 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Jillette Subject: Re: Terramycin Extender Pattie Stability At 01:55 PM 2/27/96 GMT, you wrote: >At 03:18 PM 2/24/96 -0800, you wrote: >>James : >> >>A study done by Martha Gilliam and Robert Argauer in 1975 (ABJ 115 : 230-234) >>reported that Terramycin in extender patties is stable at brood nest >>temperatures for at least 11 weeks. I'm not sure if 1/2 a patty is >>enough of a treatment though. Someone else might be able to answer that. >> >>Adony Melathopoulos >>Simon Fraser University >>Vancouver, British Columbia >>CANADA >> >>melathop@sfu.ca > >You could be right about '1/2 a patty not enough'. However, it could well >depend upon the size of a 'patty' and the concentration of active ingredient >in the 'Patty'. I don't raise this issue to be picky but to lead up to >another question. > >I would be interested in comparing recipies and patty sizes. Unfortunately >my recipe is at the Honey House but i will send it along in the next few >days. Meanwhile, if a few members could provide recipies and doses it would >be most interesting. > >Eric >Eric Abell >Gibbons, Alberta Canada >(403) 998 3143 >eabell@compusmart.ab.ca > > There is an article regarding Terramycin use in Extender Patties in the American Bee Journal, Vol.134, No.4, April 1994, pp259-261. In it is listed the following: No. 6.4 oz Lbs Vegetable Lbs Powdered Colonies treated Packets TSP Shortening Sugar 1 lb patty/colony ____________________________________________________________________________ __________________ 1 4.6 9.1 14 2 9.1 8.2 28 3 13.7 27.4 42 4 18.2 36.5 56 5 22.8 45.6 70 They also mention that the original idea of extender patties comes from work by Dr. Bill Wilson and colleagues entitled "Antibiotic Treatments That Last Longer," American Bee Journal, September, 1970, pp. 348-351.44 The recipe in this article thought to be best was: 1/3 ob Crisco(R), 2/3 ob granulated sugar, two (2) tablespoons of TSP or TM-25, yielding two patties. Later Dr. Wilson found that a patty half as large was satisfactory and would last six weeks. Hope this info is of some use. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:39:06 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: uy38745@ANTEL.COM.UY Subject: INVITATION - 5to CONGRESO LATINO-IBEROAMERICANO DE APICULTURA Comments: To: mts@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu, Olda.Vancata@p12.f201.n206.z2.fidonet.org, netnews@db.stanford.edu INVITATION THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA [A [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [DTO THE 5to CONGRESO IBEROLATINOAME ICANO DE APICULTURA [BMERCEDES - URUGUAY - SOUTH AMERICA THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA, COOPERATIVA CALMER AND THE INTENDENCIA MUNICIPAL DE SORIANO, HAVE THE PLEASURE TO INVITE YOU TO THE 5th LATINOAMERICAN CONGRESS OF APICULTURE AND THE 2nd EXPO-COMERCIAL FORUM. . HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON :) ERNESTO TOLSTOY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 02:16:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ken Adams Subject: Re: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:10:24 EST." <199602282012.PAA53714@freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:10:24 -0500 From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? I take a tape >recorder ( a small $ 30 one) out with me when I work the bees. The >recorder has a pause button on it, I just push the button and tell the >machine what I have seen and what I have to do next time I return to the >hive. >> Being as I am new to the business, I have been wondering how I would >>keep track of my hives when I get into this full time & my hive count goes >>up. I have been playing with the idea of using an electronic notebook with a >>database program where I would only have to write the hive number and up >>pops it's history which can then be updated. Has anyone tried this or know >>of any software that would work in this application? Granted these notebooks >>are in the $600-800 US range but it might pay for itself by streamling >>recordkeeping. Kelley: I've found the following to help me.... 1) I carry a small VOX tape recorder in shirt pocket... about the size of a pack of cigarettes 2) A couple of times a year I pack along a cheap polaroid camera and take a few photographs of the apiary and/or individual stands...yes it costs about $1.00 a shot BUT it might cost me a dollar in gas each way to get to that yard....Sometimes 1 picture is worth more than a 1000 words on tape.. 3) Mark the hives in some way.... Examples...I've seen wood and metal numbers attached to hive bodies and supers....too much for me but who's to say... Paint a number on brick/stone/etc that you keep on top of telescoping cover...I've even seen the covers numbered in paint or some such... If you keep the yard well mowed...a wood or plastic paint stirrer can indicate the stand's number....With my weed whip and infrequent visits I opt for marking the hive stand (treated patio lumber) and/or using old metal T fencepost and signage for tired eyes... My experience with laptops and/or portable computers has not been very good....Battery life has not been great and the machines themselves have not held up well at all....I think there are three in my junk pile.... I'm presently using an ancient Mac on inverter power if I take a computer with me on my rounds.... One of my partners in crime here at the computing center has been carrying a Newton around for a couple of years and likes it....I'm not sure whether it would stand gloves/honey/propolis and the rough treatment that it would get riding in my van year-around.... I'm slowly standardizing my distant outyards to one size box... llinois or 6 1/4 inch tall box...closer yards have a bit of every size and shape imaginable....SIGH! To the Rest of Bee-L, enjoyed your tales of spring...I know its around the corner...a few stings will rid me of these aches and pains... Bee Methodical! Advance Science and Communicate... Sincerely, kla@cc.purdue.edu - Ken Adams EAS Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:55:00 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Yaacov Lensky Subject: Re: INVITATION - 5to CONGRESO LATINO-IBEROAMERICANO DE APICULTURA >INVITATION >THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA [A [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [DTO THE 5to CONGRESO IBEROLATINOAME >ICANO DE APICULTURA [BMERCEDES - URUGUAY - SOUTH AMERICA > >THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA, COOPERATIVA CALMER AND THE INTENDENCIA MUNICIPAL DE SORIANO, HAVE THE PLEASURE TO INVITE YOU TO >THE 5th LATINOAMERICAN CONGRESS OF APICULTURE AND THE 2nd EXPO-COMERCIAL FORUM. >. >HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON :) >ERNESTO TOLSTOY >Please, indicate when exactly wil it take place. Thanks, Yaacov lensky ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 03:31:46 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Propolis: 3rd Installment Good Morning, Well, here it is, folks the 3rd and final installment in the saga of propolis. Sorry that it has taken so long for me to get to this installment, but I have been extremely busy, lately, trying to find a new job and working as a temp. on 2nd shift. This post we'll talk about what to do with your propolis. BTW, for those of you who don't know propolis is pronounced [prah-poh-lis]. For years I pronounced it [proh-poh-lis], until a friend kindly corrected me. Even then, I found it hard to break the habit of pronouncing it wrongly. I believe that in the last post I indicated that once the trap was full, you put the trap in a plastic bag (new [of course] garbage bag) and place it in the freezer. The freezing process changes it into a form that you can actually work with. When it is warm it's very sticky. When frozen it will crumble easily. Remove your trap from the freezer and, while it's still in the bag, begin mashing and twisting it. This will cause the propolis to come out of the trap, into the bag. You may want to open the bag and make sure all of the propolis has released from the trap. The trap is now ready to be put back on the hive. At this point, you have several options. You can sell the propolis to companies who purchase it. One source of mine told me that one Canadian company is offering $40 US/pound. I, personally, have not tried to sell it, so I haven't checked out the market, to see what a fair market price would be. Another option is to use it yourself or collect for others (which could also be sold). For those of you who have tried chewing raw propolis, you, no doubt, found out that it sticks to and stains the teeth and doesn't want to come off. If you want to do it this way, that's fine. However, there are better methods of delivery. I have a friend that grinds the raw propolis into a powder, in the blender, then snorts it up her nose. She claims that this method is especially effective if you feel a cold or sinusitis coming on. To be totally honest, I haven't tried this method of delivery and doubt that I ever will. It's just too radical for my brain to accept. There are several companies that make "extracts" and "tinctures" of propolis. The tinctures are those preparations that contain alcohol. The extracts do not. However, alcohol is used in the processing of both preparations. The preparation process, actually, takes a while. Once the propolis has been ground into a powder, it is placed into a sealed container containing high proof, grain alcohol. For those of you who don't know anything about alcohol (liqour), there is a product on the market called "Ever Clear". It is the highest proof grain alcohol that I have found available. Let the mixture set for approximately two weeks. This will break down the resins and esters. Some people may choose to use it in this form. That's okay, but it will be very potent and possibly hard to handle. If you want the alcohol out, place this mixture into a baking pan. Place the pan in the oven and leave the door propped open. Turn the oven on the lowest setting. This will evaporate the alcohol out of the mixture. You will need to add water, periodically, so that it doesn't dry out and crystalize in the pan. You want it to stay in liquid form, just minus the alcohol. I suggest using either distilled or filtered water, just to keep it as pure as possible. Keep tasting and smelling it, until you are sure that the alcohol is evaporated out (this will take several hours). Once the alcohol is gone, it is ready to pour off into a sealed container. Now, if you let it sit for long, it will seperate and the solids will settle at the bottom. When you want to use the mixture, just shake well before using it. You can use the preparation like this, however, it's not very pleasant tasting. I prefer mixing it in a little bit of honey. You may think of some other vehicle that it could be mixed with. It's your propolis. Try away! At this point I have to leave the rest up to you. If I begin trying to suggest amount to consume on a daily basis, then I would be in danger of "practicing medicine without a license". So, the rest is up to you. If anyone has any helpful hints, after trying the above recipe, be sure and post it to the list, so everyone can benefit. Well, as Porky Pig says, "Ebidah, ebidah, ebidah, that's all folks!" Thanks, and God Bless. See everyone around the list. Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:16:41 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Evaluation of bees; Checklist or Procedure? Hello all ... On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, David Eyre wrote a list of bees lines evaluation : I quite agree with him but ... On Wed, 28 Feb 1996 Roy Nettlebeck showed the real problem of these data ... > The problem is, control of the data. !!! Some years ago I used his precess and record all my observations in a RDB(RDO) VMS database (a lot of informations) but how do interpret them?? I remember a narrative from Yvon Achard, french beekeeper and breeder who received some queens from Brother Adam breeding. Next year, Brother Adam (he was 92 old) spent a few days in his(Achard) wild yard in the very beautiful Vercors country where these colonies were fitted to breed. Thinking that the best to choose the colony to breed was brother Adam, Achard allowed him to come with him to visit them and choose to take some larva. Brother Adam is quite and silent. The visit began and the colonies were inspected. Really good colonies, quite, almost no fume and no one sting, splendid compact brood covered with quite bees ... Brother Adam looked ... Achard : This ? Brother Adam said nothing, his head said "No" ! Ok ... Next hive, the same beautiful bees : (Achard) This ? ...(BA) "No" ...(Achard) Ho ! And so on ... And for one hive, apparently no different from the others, after a few observation seconds and without Achard question, B. Adam said nothing but his forefinger said "This"! And Achard "Why?" And B. Adam just made a small impossibility gesture : His own computer had made the decision : too difficult to explain why. And Achard said to conclude: this breeding queens were really very good on all aspects ! This to give us a little humility sentiment (my mind!) ! Personnally, a good program will interest me ! Cheers Jean-Marie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:01:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Status Bee Activity Central Md (Balto metro) Friends, Sixteen of 20 hives survived the winter, never below zero and despite the BIG Blizzard (20.5 inches). Paper-towel treatment (not menthol crystals) used for T-mite control and Apistan strips 4 V-mite. Bees R flying and bringing in skunk cabbage and maple tree pollen. Have seven pollen traps installed, the best out there. Yes, each is being fed half-gallon glass Boardman feeder, 50/50 solution, despite what the soit-disant experts say about Boardman feeders--I know what works for me (also fastest and easiest in my estimation). Cheers. Hope your bees R going better than man. Jack the Bman - 36 consecutive years Ellicott City Md usa 15 miles W downtown Baltimore 25 miles N of where Clinton hangs his hat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:43:35 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Invitacion Hola Ernesto, >INVITATION THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA > >THE 5to CONGRESO IBEROLATINOAMERICANO DE APICULTURA [BMERCEDES - >URUGUAY - SOUTH AMERICA > >HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON :) ERNESTO TOLSTOY Gracias por la invitacion. Lastima que esta un poco lejos... Si tienen informacion sobre sus actividades en espanol, me gustaria leerla, asi como cualquiera informacion sobre la apicultura que tengan lista. Una apicultora mexicana empesara a trabajar con nosotros en abril y seria muy util para ella porque no habla otro idioma. Hasta luego, Jean-Louis, Montreal *** Pour des ameriques tres latines! *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:15:43 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: Bee Activity Central Md >despite what the soit-disant experts >say about Boardman feeders--I know what works for me (also >fastest and easiest in my estimation). Glad to here another 'ole timer (beekeeper) uses the front entrance feeder! They sure have gotten a lot of bad press but IMHO they are the easiest to use (for a hobbiest) and work just fine. And with the half gallon jars, filling them up is not a problem since you can just 'eyeball' them anytime. Lets hear it for the front entrance feeders!!! [And all this time I was keeping such a low profile as to the fact that I continued to use this type feeder even when everybody else was saying how worthless they are] ;-) BusyKnight Dallas, TX BusyKnight busykngt@airmail.net ICBM INcode:N:32.45'W:96.45' Republic of Texas G.E. - We Bring Good Things to Life And a leading manufacturer of Thermonuclear Bombs. Life, we make it Glow in the Dark! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:47:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wayne Rumball Subject: Re: INVITATION - 5to CONGRESO LATINO-IBEROAMERICANO DE Comments: cc: UY38745@antel.com.uy At 10:16 PM 2/28/96 -0500, you wrote: >Subject: INVITATION - 5to CONGRESO LATINO-IBEROAMERICANO DE APICULTURA > >INVITATION >THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA [A [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [DTO THE 5to CONGRESO IBEROLATINOAME >ICANO DE APICULTURA [BMERCEDES - URUGUAY - SOUTH AMERICA > >THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA, COOPERATIVA CALMER AND THE INTENDENCIA MUNICIPAL DE SORIANO, HAVE THE PLEASURE TO INVITE YOU TO >THE 5th LATINOAMERICAN CONGRESS OF APICULTURE AND THE 2nd EXPO-COMERCIAL FORUM. >. >HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON :) >ERNESTO TOLSTOY > where? when? Wayne Rumball ODEM International Inc., Montreal, Quebec ODEM@gm.gamemaster.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:08:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin Grabow Subject: Dead Hives Well, last Saturday we had 51F so I went out and made a quick inspection. In one yard I have 5 hives, only 1 made it. I'm not able to reach my other yard due to the snow depth, but hopefully I can get in there next week. With the apiary with the 5 hives I ran a little experiment. I've heard and read so much about outer covers that I decided to not use them for the first time. Big mistake. We had a period of about one week with -40F (normal temp, not windchill) and another week of high winds and cold temps, -80F windchills were normal that week. I have ice and snow between the brood chambers. I'm assuming the boxes were not tight enough and the cold and snow went in and froze them out. I over winter in 3 deeps, the bees are still in the middle box and there are plenty of stores in the upper box. Lesson for the day: No matter what anybody tells me, or what I read, outer covers are essential in my climate, and well worth the cost and effort. I'm sure some of you out there will say "Of course they are dummy!", but I'm one of those that needs to find out things for myself. Regards, Kevin Grabow Dalbo, MN kevingr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:38:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? In a message dated 96-02-27 16:19:02 EST, beeworks@MUSKOKA.NET (David Eyre) gives the following trait list for queen breeding selection: >Traits Suggested: > Winterability > a. Colony strength first inspection after winter. > 5. 10 frames of bees or more. > 4. 8-9 frames of bees > 3. 6-7 frames of bees > 2. 4-5 frames of bees > 1. 2-3 frames of bees. > b. Stored Food. > 5. Very heavy none needed > 4. heavy none needed > 3. enough food > 2 no food, needs feeding > 1. no food and starved > Brood Viability > 5. >95% solid brood > 4. 90-95% solid brood > 3. 80-90% solid brood > 2. 75-85% solid brood > 1. <75% solid brood > Temperament > 5. Bees and queen are very quiet, no sting attempts > 4. Bees and queen are calm and 1-2 sting attempts > 3. Bees and queen fairly calm 2-4 sting attempts > 2. Bees and queen show some running 5-10 sting >attempts > 1. Bees and queen Excited and running > Cleaning Behaviour > 5. Clean bottom board and brood nest > 4. Clean bottom board with slight debris > 3. Little debris on bottom board > 2. Fair amount of debris > 1. Messy bottom board. > Disease Status > Examine brood, check and note. AFB should be >eliminated. > Honey Production > Note on the check list total supers added. I do not quantify each and every trait, as listed above, though it probably would be a good thing. It is a good list. I have been interested in the laptop computer notes of others, as we have thought of trying this for better record keeping in the field. What I do, is mark colonies that appear to be exceptional, and follow throughout a season. The first marking can be done in early summer, as soon as the new queens have had an opportunity to assert their individuality. Each time we go through the bees, the ones marked for possible breeders are evaluated more closely, and if they fail for any reason, their breeder status is cancelled. Perhaps 3-4% will be marked at the beginning, while only a handful will qualify by the following spring. If the bees show ANY trace of meanness, or chalkbrood, they are instantly eliminated as breeders. The final creme de la creme (cream rises) will become the two or three hives chosen as queen mothers. The runner-ups get placed in mating areas, and are given some drone comb in the center of the brood nest, and fed heavily so they will make plenty. One trait not listed, that I think highly important, is pollen gathering. Overall, the pollen gathering behavior of the bees is highly indicative of health and genetics. I want my breeders to be gathering more pollen, on average, that other hives in the same location. Other traits that help in the total evaluation are odor and appearance of adults/comb. The slightest greasyness in appearance of the adults or the capped brood is a bad sign, as is a slight sour odor, instead of the healthy sweet smell. With odors it is, of course, important to distinguish from AFB (a powerful odor), and some nectar sources, which have unique odors. Having said all this, I must note that there are seasons when the plan breaks down; the bees are swarmy and we simply don't have time to keep up with the grafting/cells to each, etc. All the early-season stuff is done "right," but later on, when swarm cells are found, a quick evaluation is made. If the colony looks good, the entire swarmy colony is made into nucs, with cells divided, so each has one or two. I used to cut out these swarm cells, and give queens, but often one is missed, or they don't accept the queen anyway. The theory is that using swarm cells will encourage swarminess as a trait. But since the advent of tracheal mites, I have seen enough weak bees, that I think bees that are strong enough to swarm are the kind I prefer. Furthermore swarm cell queens are well fed and almost always accepted, so one gains in the end. The best swarm prevention management I know, is to never let a colony go into the spring buildup with a two year old queen. Swarming is programmed into them for the second year, no matter what the breeding. We super only colonies with queens that are less than a year old. The remainder are used for raising bees. I'd encourage anyone with a dozen or so hives, or more, to raise some of his or her own queens, from your best stock, and be diligent about culling the worst. I emphacize culling as just as important as breeding. Even junk bees will raise drones in the spring -- you catch the drift..... Don't nurse along poor bees; requeen them, or kill the queen and combine them with a good colony. Combining two poor hives, can often still result in a poor hive, if both were junk stock. In my early years as a beekeeper, I just couldn't be hard-hearted enough to get rid of junk, and that was my worst management weakness. My current weakness is perhaps trying to keep too many hives, and I'd better get on to taking care of them. We are stopping now with dry sugar feeding, and going to syrup. We've had four days in the eighties here in SC, and are now ahead of season, making us very vulnerable to a cold snap. Yesterday I noticed wild plum in full bloom, about two weeks early. Commercial blueberries are starting to open. Peaches are wide open, as are the flowering pears and anise hyssip. Crab apples are close. We "primed the pump" in one yard with syrup about two weeks ago, and they are now getting quite a natural flow. Other yards don't seem to be getting it though. The total bloom is still not that great. Cold weather is forecast for the weekend, but we hope not a freeze now. May all your flowers be filled with nectar. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Bee Activity Central Md In a message dated 96-02-29 08:17:41 EST, busykngt@AIRMAIL.NET (BusyKnight) writes: >Glad to here another 'ole timer (beekeeper) uses the >front entrance feeder! They sure have gotten a lot of >bad press but IMHO they are the easiest to use (for a >hobbiest) and work just fine. And with the half gallon >jars, filling them up is not a problem since you can >just 'eyeball' them anytime. Lets hear it for the front >entrance feeders!!! [And all this time I was keeping >such a low profile as to the fact that I continued to >use this type feeder even when everybody else was saying >how worthless they are] ;-) Glad they work for you. They don't for everybody. Sure can't beat the convenience, though. Perhaps that will encourage more feeding, when the other ways might cause one to put it off. Question: A lot of folks are claiming to be a hobbiest lately. Is that the superlative form of hobbyist? ;-) We have a lot of superlative beekeepers on the list, including Busy Knight. Thanks for your posts. To all the list: As spring moves north, I'd like to see more posts on what is blooming in your area, and what is going on with the bees. Sometimes one particular flower is quite important in one area, but not so in others. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:56:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: converting an extractor Hi all! I am trying to put a motor on my habd cranking radial extracter. Has anyone done this before? I could use some information on gears and on what works best. Thanks , Mary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:18:13 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Beekeeping beyond 2000 Course From: Medhat Nasr Date: February 27, 1996 To: Interested Beekeepers Subject: 2nd ANNOUNCEMENT for BEEKEEPING BEYOND 2000 COURSE ============================================================== We added to our speaker's list Dr. Tom Sanford from University of Florida. He will give the following three lectures: 1. Business Practices and Profitability. 2. Impacts of Tracheal Mites and Varroa Mites on Beekeeping in Florida. 3. Uses of Computer in Beekeeping. This course will be offered from March 13 to 14, 1996 at the Holiday Inn, Guelph, Ontario Canada. The Beekeeping Beyond 2000 Course will cover beekeeping managements: present and future, economics of beekeeping under the changes in the world market such as NAFTA and GATT, mechanization of beekeeping, and Africanization of bees. In addition, this course will focus on the latest information about parasitic mites, integrated approach to control diseases and pests, utilization of genetics for developing better bees, seasonal management and pollination demands. The format of this course is not a student- teacher form but it is an interactive round table discussion with expertise in different beekeeping fields. This course will feature; Dr. Eric Mussen of University of California, Davis, Dr. Tom Sanford, University of Florida, Gary Hergert, Agriculture Canada, Dr. T. Szabo of Agriculture Canada, Barry Davies of Ontario Bee Breeders' Association, Doug McRory of Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Dr. Medhat Nasr of Ontario Beekeepers' Association. For Registration or Information, please contact: Pat Westlake Ontario Beekeepers' Association Bayfield, Ontario CANADA NOM 1GO Tel: (519)565-2622 Fax: (519) 565-5452 BEEKEEPING BEYOND 2000 Schedule: March 13, 1996: 8:30 Registration-Coffee Pat Westlake 9:00-9:15 Greeting from Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food, and Rural Affair. Dr. J. Ashman 9:15-10:00 Beekeeping Present and Future in USA Dr. Eric Mussen 10:00-10:30 Coffee and Donuts (served). 10:30-11:30 Business Practices and Profitability Dr. Tom Sanford 11:30-12:00 Current Beekeeping Regulation Doug McRory 12:00- 1:15 Lunch (Served) 1:15-1:45 Impact of the African Bees on Beekeeping in North America Dr. Eric Mussen 1:45-2:30 Infectious Diseases (AFB, nosema, virus,PMS..etc. ) in Honey Bees Dr. Medhat Nasr 2:30-3:00 Coffee 3:00-3:45 Impacts of Border Closure, NAFTA and GATT on Honey and Bee Trade Gary Hergart 4:00-5:00 Uses of Computer in Beekeeping Dr. Tom Sanford 6:00-8:00 Open Bar and Dinner Banquet 8:00-9:30 Implementing Selection and Breeding Programs in Bees: A Case Study Barry Davies & Dr. Medhat Nasr BEEKEEPING BEYOND 2000 Schedule: March 14, 1996: 8:45-9:30 Impacts of Tracheal Mites and Varroa Mites on Beekeeping in Florida Dr. Tom Sanford 9:30-10:15 Mechanisms of Bee Resistance to Varroa Mites Dr. Tibor Szabo 10:15-10:45 Coffee and Donuts (served) 10:45-11:20 Marketing Products Gary Hergert 11:20-12:00 Alternative Beekeeping Activity: Utilizing Bees in the Agriculture system (Pollination) Dr. Eric Mussen 12:00-1:15 Lunch (Served) 1:15- 2:00 Parasitic mites, Bees, and Controls Dr. Medhat Nasr 2:00-2:45 Mechanization of Beekeeping Dr. Eric Mussen 2:45-3:15 Coffee 3:15-4:00 Genetic Evidences for Hygienic Behaviour in Honey Bees Dr. Tibor Szabo 4:00-4:30 Effects of Worker Genotypic Diversity on the Honey Bee Colony Dr. Medhat nasr 4:30- 5:00 What Will a Commercial Beekeeping Operation Look Like in Year 2000? Doug McRory 4:45 Adjournment 7:30-9:00 Buckfast Breeders Meeting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ONTARIO BEE BREEDERS'ASSOCIATION MEETING March 15, 1996: 9:00-9:10 Opening Remarks Paul Montoux 9:10-10:00 Management of Breeding Programs and Queen Production Medhat Nasr 10:00-10:30 Coffee and Donuts (served) 10:30-11:20 Augmentation of Selected Bee Stocks in Commercial Operations: a Case Study Barry Davies 11:20-12:00 Quick Testing Bees for Tracheal Mite Resistance: Is It Real or...? Medhat Nasr 12:00-1:15 Lunch (served) 1:15-2:00 Regulation vs. Genes: Hygienic Behaviour in Ontario Tracheal Mite Resistant Stock Doug McRory 2:00- 2:45 Logistics of operating and Marketing queens: Open Discussion Rick Neilson 2:45-3:00 Coffee (served) 3:00-3:30 Business Meeting Paul Montoux 3:30 Adjournment ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:35:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Re: Cause of death.AFB In-Reply-To: <199602280947.BAA27699@tuna.hooked.net> In central Ma. we treat AFB hives with Irradiation if anyone is interested in the details of the program, I'll check with the person who sets it up. Luckily I've never had to ask for myself(KOW) But I've been told it's quite successful and less expensive then replace the equipment. John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:48:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mason Harris Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Subject: AFB Hello fellow bee folks! The companies that make plastic foundation state that the beauty of this foundation is the ability to scrape the comb off if it becomes diseased along with it's reuseability and ease of use. What is one to do with plastic foundation if it gets a bacterial disease ie. AFB??? I recently learned that even boiling the plastic will not kill the AFB. In this case, it turns out that the plastic foundation is much more expensive then regualy wax foundation. Having to replace plastic is cost prohibitive. Is there a way to clean AFB off plastic foundation besides irradiation? If not, where in the San Francisco Bay area or California can one take their equipment for this treatment? Any comments on this subject will be welcomed. Mason D. Harris Department of Audiology San Mateo County Office of Education smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Mass. Fed. Meeting(Central Massachusetts,U.S.A.) In-Reply-To: <199602272129.QAA09694@segwun.muskoka.net> Massachusetts Federation of Beekeepers 1996 Spring Meeting & Friday Night Workshops Date: Saturday, March 16, 1996 Time: Registration starts at 9:00 AM Place: Colonial Bed and Breakfast, 625 Betty Spring Road, Gardner, MA (508) 630-2500 or 800-484-1190 ext. 6240 This will be an all day meeting Our featured speakers are: Oscar Coindreau of Zoecon, makers of the Apistan strips. Jack Aisley of the Cape Cod Cranberry Growers. Oscar Coindreau will bring us up to date on the Apistan strips and also talk about their use and misuse. Jack Aisley will describe the importance of pollination and beekeepers to cranberry growers. There will be commercial exhibits, a raffle and a silent auction to benefit the apiary extension service. You are asked to bring an item for the silent auction and are invited to bid on items. The luncheon buffet has a hearty selection of hot and cold items, soup, salad, and desserts. Lunch has been rated excellent by all who have attended in the past. There will also be morning coffee, juice and pastries. The hotel is offering a special rate for overnight stays. To stay over Friday night the cost is $59 plus tax per couple or $45 plus tax for single. This includes a double room for the night, dinner (less alcoholic beverages and desserts), and breakfast the next morning. Please call the hotel to reserve this rate at least a month before the meeting (they do book up completely). There will be a wax working workshop on Friday night. There is no additional fee for this workshop, but preregistration is requested. Registration at the door, for the Spring meeting, will be more expensive and may be limited. Please send the form below with a check payable to the MFBA by March 2, 1996 to: Ted Shylovsky, 192 Boston Post Road, Sudbury, MA 01776-3102. Phone is 617-860-3341 (work), or 508-443-7195 (home). Sorry, no refunds. Number attending @$18 @$8 Total $ $18 for Program and Lunch per person. $8 for Program Registration and Morning Coffee Only per person. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:20:58 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerald Wallis Subject: Annual conference of the Arkansas Beekeepers Association Preliminary plans have been made for this years annual conference to held at the River Front Hilton in North Little Rock, Arkansas. The meeting will begin at noon on Friday, November 1 and continue till noon on Saturday, November 2. A Friday evening banquet is planned and the program will be of interest to hobbists and commercial beekeepers alike. Program details will follow as speakers are confirmed. For more information contact the Arkansas Apiary office: Ed Levi, Apiary inspector #1 Natural Resources Drive Little Rock, AR 72205 Phone: (501) 225-1598 or Gerald Wallis | Internet: GWALLIS@BUGS.UARK.EDU A320 Dept. of Entomology | Ham: N5KKD@KA5BML.AR.USA.NOAM University of Arkansas | Phone: (501) 575-7689 Fayetteville, AR 72701 | Home Phone:(501) 524-3094 http://comp.uark.edu/~gwallis/my.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:45:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 27 Feb 1996 to 28 Feb 1996 Re. Capt. K Black e.mail I apologize to post this e.mail to the discussion group but I have repeatedly tried to respond to Capt. Ken Black of Uk whose e.mail address is not accessible. Please contact directly with correct e.mail address. Thanks, Paul van Westendorp pvanmwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:10:57 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wayne Clifford Subject: Re: Evaluation of Honeybees; Checklist or Procedure? In-Reply-To: <199602282012.PAA53714@freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu> Kelly, I am new to this list so this is my first posting here. I do not now keep bees but I have a strong interest in them. I am a professional at recording data, and I can tell you from my experience that the best way I have found is to write the information on a standard form, on Write In The Rain (TM) paper, and carry it back to the computer for input. It seems to me that this scoring system is perfectly suited for a standardized form to score each hive. It would be quick and easy to simply enter numbers into each form as you do your inspections. Over time you could track trends such as weather, queen introductions, etc... The hives would have to be numbered. Recording your information on paper (weather proof), I feel, would have the following advantages: 1) Data would not be lost to computer glitch, batteries, etc. 2) Paper provides a permanent record. 3) No wear and tear on an expensive piece of equipment. 4) A convenient, easy to carry way of recording the data 5) Using a standardized form is faster than entering into a computer in the field. 6) If you drop paper it won't break 7) A big glob of honey on your key board and your done! 8) If you forget your clip board on top of your truck, it will still work after you run over it (unless you smash the clip!) OK, I'll stop. :-) I think a recorder works well for keeping track of management things as you are doing your inspections, such as "need to repair the bear fence" etc... Well, there's my $0.02. Hope you found something of use. Wayne On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Kelley Rosenlund wrote: > I have been playing with the idea of using an electronic notebook with a > database program where I would only have to write the hive number and up > pops it's history which can then be updated. Has anyone tried this or know > of any software that would work in this application? Granted these notebooks > are in the $600-800 US range but it might pay for itself by streamling > recordkeeping. > > Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wayne Clifford | Phone (360) 427-9670 X-581 Technical Administrator | FAX (360) 427-7798 Mason County Department of Health Services | PO Box 1666 Shelton, WA 98584 | USA wrc@inpho.hs.washington.edu | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:05:44 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: France Desjardins Organization: Ministhre Agriculture, Pjcheries et Alimentation du Quibec Subject: Re: Mass. Fed. Meeting(Central Massachusetts,U.S.A.) John Justin Spaulding III wrote: > > Massachusetts Federation of Beekeepers > > 1996 Spring Meeting > > & > > Friday Night Workshops > > Date: Saturday, March 16, 1996 > > Time: Registration starts at 9:00 AM > > Place: Colonial Bed and Breakfast, 625 Betty Spring Road, Gardner, MA > (508) 630-2500 or 800-484-1190 ext. 6240 > > This will be an all day meeting > > Our featured speakers are: > > Oscar Coindreau of Zoecon, makers of the Apistan strips. > > Jack Aisley of the Cape Cod Cranberry Growers. > > Oscar Coindreau will bring us up to date on the Apistan strips and also > talk about their use and misuse. > > Jack Aisley will describe the importance of pollination and beekeepers to > cranberry growers. > > There will be commercial exhibits, a raffle and a silent auction to > benefit the apiary extension service. You are asked to bring an item for > the silent auction and are invited to bid on items. > > The luncheon buffet has a hearty selection of hot and cold items, soup, > salad, and desserts. Lunch has been rated excellent by all who have > attended in the past. There will also be morning coffee, juice and > pastries. > > The hotel is offering a special rate for overnight stays. To stay over > Friday night the cost is $59 plus tax per couple or $45 plus tax for > single. This includes a double room for the night, dinner (less alcoholic > beverages and desserts), and breakfast the next morning. Please call the > hotel to reserve this rate at least a month before the meeting (they do > book up completely). > > There will be a wax working workshop on Friday night. There is no > additional fee for this workshop, but preregistration is requested. > > Registration at the door, for the Spring meeting, will be more expensive > and may be limited. Please send the form below with a check payable to > the MFBA by March 2, 1996 to: > Ted Shylovsky, > 192 Boston Post Road, > Sudbury, MA 01776-3102. > Phone is 617-860-3341 (work), or 508-443-7195 (home). Sorry, no refunds. > > Number attending @$18 @$8 Total $ > > $18 for Program and Lunch per person. $8 for Program Registration and > Morning Coffee Only per person.Good afternoon, I'm a veterinarinan of Quebec Canada. I can't go to this meeting but I would like to receive the information about Apistan given by M. Oscar Coindreau. Is this possible ? Thank you very much France Desjardins Direction des normes et des programmes Ministhre de l'Agriculture, des Pjcheries et de l'Alimentation du Quibec 200 Chemin Sainte-Foy 11 e itage Quibec (Quibec) G1R 4X6 Til.: 1-418-644-3122 Fax: 1-418-644-3049 E-mail: fdesjard@agr.gouv.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jorge Zegarra Subject: Re: INVITATION - 5to CONGRESO LATINO-IBEROAMERICANO DE APICULTURA Could you be provide more information about the congress. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:59:35 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RAUL JOSE VASCONCELLOS Subject: Re: INVITATION - 5to CONGRESO LATINO-IBEROAMERICANO DE APICULTURA Comments: To: Discussion of Bee Biology In-Reply-To: > INVITATION > > THE CENTRAL APICOLA COOPERATIVA, COOPERATIVA CALMER AND THE INTENDENCIA MUNICIPAL DE SORIANO, HAVE THE PLEASURE TO INVITE YOU TO > THE 5th LATINOAMERICAN CONGRESS OF APICULTURE AND THE 2nd EXPO-COMERCIAL FORUM. > . > HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON :) > ERNESTO TOLSTOY Could you send me more information. Thank you Raul