X-POP3-Rcpt: allend@relay Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (uacsc2.albany.edu) by internode.net with SMTP id AA03048 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 1 May 1996 06:23:43 -0600 Return-Path: Message-Id: <199605011223.AA03048@internode.net> Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0931; Wed, 01 May 96 09:23:20 EDT Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1672; Wed, 1 May 1996 09:19:23 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:19:04 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9604" To: Allen Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:41:54 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Katedra hydinarstva a malych hosp.zvierat AF" Subject: Honey market Hello Bee-liners ! I only subscribed to BEE-L few weeks ago, so please accept my greetings from the Slovak republic. I am interesting about world honey market - could anyone help me to find some informations about export-import, prices and consumption of honey and other products of the hive in the world ? Regards Robert Chlebo University of Agriculture in Nitra Slovakia e-mail: chlebo@afnet.uniag.sk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 01:35:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Bulk Bees in Mating Nucs K>From: Kevin & Ann Christensen >Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 16:16:21 -0700 >Subject: Bulk Bees in Mating Nucs K>Could any of the queen breeders out there suggest a fast and simple = >method of trasferring bulk bees into mating baby nucs without injury to = >the bees? I understand that most people simply spray the bees down with = >syrup so that they are easier to handle. Is there another way? K>Kevin Christensen Hello Kevin & Ann, A spam can with a long handle is what we use. Easy to make and with our size nucs one can full of bees is all they will hold. Also you can make a rim that extends the top edges of the bulk cage a bit and spray pam on it to keep the bees from crawling out. Also keep them sprayed down with weak sugar solution. We do the stocking of nucs after dark, using yellow bug lights to see by. We put in the cells in just before adding the bees. After stocking we stack the nucs on special pallets and move them into a small building with a water cooler to keep them cool. It gets pretty warm here sometimes and we want to keep the bees quit. The building also has misters on its tin roof. By the end of the season it does smell like a fish cannery for sure. Each queen breeder has a different plan for stocking baby nucs and a lot depends on the weather in your area and the type of equipment used. Some hints based on bad experiences. Don't use any smoke when stocking nucs or around them before they are taken out to the queen yards. Smoke makes them run and running bees are hot bees, and hot bees are a real problem as they will consume all the feed, get constipated and leave the nuc the first time the entrance is open,..most never return or return to the wrong one. Remember sealed queen cells to bees are the same as teats on a bore hog. They have no special plan to protect them and if they do not share the same space as the bees they will be ignored. Hope that helps, Good Luck! ttul Andy- --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... When the bee-hive casts its swarm; ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 08:00:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "prof. osmar malaspina" Subject: discussion oof bee biology I would like to knom if there is an effective repellent for honey bees Osmar Malaspina malaspin@recb000.uesp.ansp.br ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:44:39 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Varroa Resistant Stock In-Reply-To: On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, Vince Coppola wrote: > On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, David. E. Goble wrote: > > > >prefer this approach to roaming the globe in search of the perfect bee. > > >If a project like this is supported, we should soon have a population of > > >bees to work with that will be as good as those anywhere. > > > > > In response to these postings, > > > > You do not have to breed a resistant strain,All you need a clean > > hive and foundation, hatching brrod and a new queen from a Varroa free > > supplier and exclude all the older field bees from these hive , by placing > > it on a new isolated site, thi can be successful in at least 90% of any attempt. > > Mite infection can not be controlled by immuniological or toxicological > > genetic controll. > > I hope this an April fool prank and not realy advice. > Vince > Hi Vince , Look where he is writting from. Down under. You see what a difference a few miles make , even on this planet.We need to stay with the majority opinion on the control of mites or you will NOT have bees. Use what is legal in your area. Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 19:02:35 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: More on formic acid ... Hello all ! On May 1993 Kerry Clark asked ... > Does formic acid also have such a fixed process of evaporation. Specifically, > are there "threshold" concentrations of liquid formic acid that will produce > different vapour concentrations? > This is of interest because liquid formic acid may be used in beehives > to kill Varroa or tracheal mites. The usual 85 % concentration has been > associated with increased queen rejection, while 65 % is apparently much less > likely to result in such problem. Is there a way of predicting what > concentrations intermediate between these two, would result in vapour > concentration similar to that resulting from one or the other? > Do you have the equivalent values for the concentration of formic > acid/water that will evaporate from a 65 % formic acid liquid (and > does temperature affect the ratio as well as the rate of evaporation?) > from a 85 % formic liquid? I answered to him (May 1993) ... 1/ The problem of formic acid is whole different as that of acetic acid ! With formic acid, the azeotropic point give a boiling point of 107.1DC superior to the boiling point of the pure elements (water [100DC] and formic acid [100.7 DC]). May be because formic acid increases the hydrogen bonds of the water in the solution ! The concentration of the azeotropic mixture is 77% formic acid, 23% water. With these properties, the two different solutions you can use (65% and 85%) run quite different way when evaporating (remember azeotropic schema) : - when you evaporate a 85% solution (over the azeotropic point 77%), the vapour is more concentrate (I don't know the number but perhaps 90-95% formic acid) than the initial solution (85%). - when it is the 65% solution (before the azeotropic point 77%), the vapour is less concentrate (perhaps 30-40% - I don't have the real values but it is possible). You can imagine the difference of toxicity : for the bees and for the beekeeper of course ! ? 2/ It is may be an anthropomorphic view but I don't like at all the use of formic acid to kill varroa or acarapis. Actually we have some others drugs, not harmless but effective and smoother than formic acid which is, at the concentration used, a too dangerous product (see : causes severe burns, keep out of reach of children, don't inhale gas and vapour, in case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice). It's very agressive material - try : inhale very carefully -> I don't wish that to my bees. You never use a such treatment to another pet of you !? Furthermore, it attacks (as acetic acid, but harder) all the metallic hardware (iron !). I think it isn't to be used by common beekeeper. Hoping I have add a 2 cents at the discussion Regards Jean-Marie ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Marie Van Dyck Fax +32 81 72 42 72 B.P. 102 email : jmvandyck@cc.fundp.ac.be B-5000 NAMUR(Belgium) Medical school - Biochemistry dept ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:12:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Splitting hives with queen cells Today I found some queen cells in on of my hives so I decided it was early enough in the season to split this colony. Here's what I did: Put the queen cell in the lower hive with all the field bees. Put the queen with 1/2 of the brood above a double sceen board. Will this work? If not, what is the easiest way to split hives with queen cells? Are there any queens shipping yet? THanks for input. This list is a great way to share information and solve problems. Paul Cronshaw DC Santa Barbara, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 13:40:19 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Drones in March? Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Gentlepeople: I went into my two hives yesterday (3/31/96) BEFORE the April Fools Day Winter Hit in the Midwest. The temp was then in mid 60s in Dayton Ohio (39.90N) around 330 pm. I did some reversing, pulled Apistran Strips out of the hives (after having them in for exactly 49 days), checked on stores and pollen, and did general cleanout. Everything looked good, the best I, in my four years of losing hives to mites and ignorance, had ever seen -- lots of bees bringing in white yellow pollen, several frames with what looked like raw nectar/honey in them, bees doing the "wag tail", and generally bees doing normal bee stuff. However, something I saw puzzled me. I saw drones, not to many, but enough to clearly indicate that the queen had been laying drone eggs at least 30 days ago (March 1?). For those who might jump to the conclusion that I had a drone layer, not so. There was plenty of regular worker brood, nearly 7-9 frames worth. The question is, is this early for drones? I was not expecting to see them for at least another month. Does their presence this early in our season mean anything or is it normal? Dare I hope that it is a GOOD sign for a change? Yours, Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM. Hobby Beekeeper and Amateur Student of Bee-ology ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:25:45 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Question on Hive Hygiene: Mites and Viruses Introduced into hive via... I'm new to bee keeping. My first packages are due in a couple of weeks. I have been reading alot and have a question about hive management practices. I have heard and read numberous accounts of winter losses to 50-90% of hives, all hives being treated in the same manner. Why do some make it and others not? If the varroa mite is introducing viruses into bees and the virus is causing the problem then it would seen moving frames between hives is a bad idea. It introduces both mites and bees with the virues onto an otherwise healthy hive. Specifically, if one moves brood frames to a weak hive why place the weak hives frames in your strong hive? Are there suggested frame movement practices that address this issue other than the obvious don't do it? Has anyone surveyed beekeepers, looking at the relationship between losses and frame movement practices? I appreciate the the act of extracting honey and replacing the frames introduces the potentially contaminated frames but moving living/infected mites and bees from hive to hive seems riskier. It would be interesting/expensive to research sterile hive management practices as the relate to bee health. Cleaning the hive tool after every hive use, sterilizing "used" equipment that is placed on hives are a couble of naive ideas. Irradiation (uugh) may become a practical and normal practice if the economics of replacing losses are great enough. What prompted this whole thought process is reflecting back to the isolation treatment used by the hospital when my newborn son (now 16) was moved from one hospital to another. The hospital would not place him in the nursery with the other newborns. He had a "private" room as they did not want to introduce any foriegn germs into the nursurey. Comments...? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:02:32 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Drones in March? In-Reply-To: <9603018283.AA828394901@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > Gentlepeople: > > > > However, something I saw puzzled me. I saw drones, not to many, > but enough to clearly indicate that the queen had been laying drone > eggs at least 30 days ago (March 1?). For those who might jump to the > conclusion that I had a drone layer, not so. There was plenty of > regular worker brood, nearly 7-9 frames worth. > > The question is, is this early for drones? I was not expecting to > see them for at least another month. Does their presence this early > in our season mean anything or is it normal? Dare I hope that it is a > GOOD sign for a change? Mark, I would take it as a good sign. I don't know the kind of weather you have been having over the last month or so , but the bees may have got into some early pollen. Pollen will bring on drones. I feed pollen in Jan to get some drones early (march). Steve Tabers book , Breeding super Bees , he talks about pollen and drone production all year long. If the queen is laying a good worker pattern with few wholes and you have some drone around the outside ,thats great. You need a good break. Enjoy the season and keep some notes on what your seeing in your bees. Its great to compare year to year and hive to hive.You follow that hive along all year and see how she produces compared to the rest that you have. Then you can tell us in the fall that it was infact a good sign. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:01:24 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Yanega Subject: Re: Virus Alert >Please also note another virus, noted on AOL USA. > > >A file called AOLGOLD, supposed to be upgrade software....it isn't, beware. Beware also April Fool's Day. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:13:04 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: Drones in March? {snip} > However, something I saw puzzled me. I saw drones, not to many, > but enough to clearly indicate that the queen had been laying drone > eggs at least 30 days ago (March 1?). {snip} I checked my bees near Knoxville, TN on 30 Mar and found drones and some drone cells. I was told by long-timers in this area that it was not unusual. Logan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 18:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Varroa Resistant Stock David Goble's Kangaroo Island may be the Varroa-free isolated location that we dream of, but Maryland (and much of the rest of the world) certainly isn't. You may start with Varroa free colonies, but they won't stay that way very long. A wise observation from my son, made while helping me with ether roll Varroa tests last August (and getting stung in the process): "Why are we doing this? Testing bees for Varroa is like testing air to see if there's nitrogen in it". W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:21:56 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: To Clip or Not To Clip... That is the question. Tis' nobler...etc., etc.... I've been catching queens, marking them AND clipping wings for a few years now. Just wondering if clipping wings is really an advantageous practice or not. I know my *old* queens don't leave with the swarms. They jus' kinda fly in circles. ;^) With marked queens, I never use a clipped wing as identification. I know some people believe that it somehow damages the queen and the other bees sense this. But have any studies of this ever really been accomplished? Is the supersedeure rate greater among queens that have had their wings clipped? Also, from you BRITISH types out there: Can you tell me what the 'normal procedure' of Buckfast Abbey is? Do they normally clip wings or not? Does Brother Adam have an opinion on rather one should or should not clip wings? BusyKnight Dallas, TX busykngt@airmail.net G.E. - We bring good things to life! Also a leading producer of Thermonuclear Bombs. Life, we make it glow in the dark. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:23:40 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: good or bad honey hi there, this year i lost my only hive. things seemed to be going well until i checked them in february, shortly after which i noticed not a bee to be seen. opened the hive again, no bees. question: i have many frames of capped honey, with some uncapped and possibly fermenting honey (strong smell) mixed in. there is also some very gray and dried looking comb mixed about, which i assume is where brood might have been. the ants are moving in to go after everything they can find. can i use the capped honey, or should i scrape off everything and start all over? what is the "danger" of the gray comb for a) honey, and b) future bees? thanks! john ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 18:59:08 EST Reply-To: "Glen B. Glater" Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Glen B. Glater" Subject: Re: A beginners question I did this a couple of years ago and had no problems. You may have to go in after a bit and crush some drone cells, but otherwise, in my experience, the new queen took over. We didn't get honey from that hive that year, but we got 100 lbs the next season!! --glen >I recently did a split on two hives to make a new one, but the queen that I introduced into the split died. >This hive will be queenless for about one week untill I can get a new queen. I have heard that queenless hives >will develope laying workers, if queenless for more than a few days. Will this cause any problems when my new >queen arrives and I try to introduce her into the split? Also after the new queen is accepted by the hive will >the laying workers stop laying? >-- >*************************** >* Charles (Rick) Grubbs * >* digital@avana.net * >* Douglasville, Ga SE USA * >*************************** ************************************************************** Midnight Networks Inc. * 200 Fifth Avenue * Waltham, MA 02154 Glen B. Glater Principal, Strategic Networking Group Phone: (617) 890-1001 Fax: (617) 890-0028 Internet: glen@midnight.com http://www.midnight.com/~glen Midnight Networks Inc. WWW page http://www.midnight.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:48:15 PST Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: T.TOWNSEND@IBM.NET Subject: Re: Drones in March? ---------------Original Message--------------- M For those who might jump to the conclusion that I had a drone layer, not so. There was plenty of regular worker brood, nearly 7-9 frames worth. The question is, is this early for drones? I was not expecting to see them for at least another month. Does their presence this early in our season mean anything or is it normal? Dare I hope that it is a GOOD sign for a change? Yours, Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM. Hobby Beekeeper and Amateur Student of Bee-ology You are right it is a good sign, as your queen seems fine, then you can smile, since the bees will only raise drones when they are in good shape,(all things being equal) in the spring, we have had drones right through the winter, in three story colonies. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 21:12:37 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tony & Mary Jones Subject: Bees Needed Howdy from Kentucky! We are looking for a supplier of healthy bees to begin again this season. We lost all of our bees over the winter, most likely to varroa or wax worms. We have a new hive body to begin again, but our local bee supplier (Walter Kelley Co. in Clarkson, KY) is sold out of bees. Does anyone have an address or phone number of a reputable company from which we can order bees at this late date? A company which guarantees that they are varroa-free when shipped is necessary. Your help and assistance is greatly appreciated, as we need the bees for pollination as well as for honey. Thanks a bunch! - Mary & Tony Jones ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:54:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Drones in March? In a message dated 96-04-01 13:50:10 EST, megloff@CSCUUXCH.DAYTON.CSC.COM (Mark D. Egloff) writes: >The question is, is this early for drones? I was not expecting to > see them for at least another month. Probably (with the heavy foraging and other info you give) means that you have nice strong hives. The stronger the hive, the more they are apt to keep drones in the off season. Good luck. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 05:12:45 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: Drones in March? At 01:40 PM 4/1/96 EST, you wrote: > Gentlepeople: > > I went into my two hives yesterday (3/31/96) BEFORE the April Fools > Day Winter Hit in the Midwest. The temp was then in mid 60s in Dayton > Ohio (39.90N) around 330 pm. > > I did some reversing, pulled Apistran Strips out of the hives > (after having them in for exactly 49 days), checked on stores and > pollen, and did general cleanout. Everything looked good, the best I, > in my four years of losing hives to mites and ignorance, had ever seen > -- lots of bees bringing in white yellow pollen, several frames with > what looked like raw nectar/honey in them, bees doing the "wag tail", > and generally bees doing normal bee stuff. > > However, something I saw puzzled me. I saw drones, not to many, > but enough to clearly indicate that the queen had been laying drone > eggs at least 30 days ago (March 1?). For those who might jump to the > conclusion that I had a drone layer, not so. There was plenty of > regular worker brood, nearly 7-9 frames worth. > > The question is, is this early for drones? I was not expecting to > see them for at least another month. Does their presence this early > in our season mean anything or is it normal? Dare I hope that it is a > GOOD sign for a change? > > Yours, > Mark Egloff > MEGLOFF@CSC.COM. > Hobby Beekeeper and Amateur Student of Bee-ology As a beginner bee keeper bees being bees I think if you have queen cells the bees know they will need drones. Daniel D. Dempsey ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:49:15 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "S. Gielesen" Organization: Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam Subject: Re: More on formic acid ... Comments: To: Jean-Marie Van Dyck > >/ It is may be an anthropomorphic view but I don't like at all the >use of formic acid to kill varroa or acarapis. Actually we have some >others drugs, not harmless but effective and smoother than formic >acid >which is, at the concentration used, a too dangerous product (see : >causes severe burns, keep out of reach of children, don't inhale gas >and vapour, in case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with >plenty of water and seek medical advice). It's very agressive >material - try : inhale very carefully -> I don't wish that to my >bees. You never use a such treatment to another pet of you !? >Furthermore, it attacks (as acetic acid, but harder) all the metallic >hardware (iron !). I think it isn't to be used by common beekeeper. Hello, Formic acid is used by some beekeepers in Holland. The method is: sprinkle some formic acid (I don't know what concentration) on a piece of board that fits on top of the frames. The evaporated formic acid is heavier than air so it sinks in the hive and kills the mites (they fall off the bees). But it also harms or even kills the brood that is in open cells. A better method that has been developed at the university of Wageningen is: use an airtight box that has been treated with formic acid and put in the frames with closed broodcells. Treat the frames one by one and you get rid of most of the mites. You have to be very carefull with formic acid; wear gloves and put the piece of board in a plastic bag after you used it. I'll see if I can find the man who was doing this research on varroa. He can give more exact information. Sanne Gielesen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 06:31:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Question on Hive Hygiene: Mites and Viruses Introduced into hive via... The snag with the "sterile hive management" proposal is that bees do drift from one colony to another, so the mites with all their baggage get spread around no matter what you as a beekeeper do. The only time I have invoked the "sterile hive management" philosophy and stopped work, went home and alchohol cleaned my equipment was when I ran into a hive with American Foulbrood. (The hive was also killed and sealed with the Handyman's Secret Weapon - duct tape). W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:22:18 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Fumigation to curb Nosema _The_Hive_and_the_Honeybee_ states that Nosema contaminated equipment can be fumigated with 80% acedic acid. Where does one procure 80% acedic acid and what precautions should one take in its use? Thanks in advance, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:26:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Web Page Jerry, I've been getting quite a few compliments about the Web page. It looks great, good job. I was wondering if you have any data on bee population growth over a season, adults and brood, similar to the one Stephens did for Ohio (OHIO Bee Lines, 1971). I know some exist, but none is readily available to me. Keep up the good work and think sring. D Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 Phone: (330) 263 3684 Fax: (330) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu New Phone in April will be 263 3912 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:48:12 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Formic acid Pad Hello , I had a friend tell me this morning that there is a pad that is the delivery method for formic acid , that is safe. I'm interested if anyone has any info on a pad? I think all of us on the list have have had enough info to show that formic acid is not really safe.I talked to me Son last night about formic acid and pheromones. Its like using a bulldozer in your flower bed to weed with.You will get the weeds and a whole lot more. Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:12:26 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Science Question re: HMF There has recently been a case here in Western Canada where a beekeeper bought a *off spec* load of corn syrup for fall feed. It was sold at a discount as off-spec and an analysis supplied, apparently. One of the factors that was off-spec was that the HMF was high. This spring there are abnormal losses in that outfit. HMF is apparently high in acid process corn syrup, and it is also -- as I recall -- a product of heat and age in honey. My question: Will heating sugar syrup (sucrose in water) cause high HMF, or is this only a factor in honey and invert sugars? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:46:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Drones in March? >> The question is, is this early for drones? I was not expecting to >> see them for at least another month. Does their presence this early >> in our season mean anything or is it normal? Dare I hope that it is a >> GOOD sign for a change? > >As a beginner bee keeper bees being bees I think if you have queen cells the >bees know they will need drones. >Daniel D. Dempsey >ddempsey@ddt.net > Hate to be pompous, but that last statement is in reverse. First we need the drones, then will come the queen cells. No good having queens with nothing to mate too! All hives will produce drones, provided all is in good order. So yes, it's a good sign!! Just wish I had drones, we haven't got rid of our snow yet!! :-( **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:46:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splitting hives with queen cells >Today I found some queen cells in on of my hives so I decided it was early >enough in the season to split this colony. >Here's what I did: >Put the queen cell in the lower hive with all the field bees. Put the queen >with 1/2 of the brood above a double sceen board. >Will this work? >If not, what is the easiest way to split hives with queen cells? >Are there any queens shipping yet? >THanks for input. This list is a great way to share information and solve >problems. As a first time I think you did well! A couple of points to, in my opinion, improve. Offset the queen right hive to left or right, turn it 90 degrees to standing hive, with all the brood, both sealed and open. This now simulates a swarmed hive, as that's what it was about to do. If it was only one queen cell in the middle of the frame, LEAVE IT ALONE!! That's a supercedure cell, and it means they want a new queen. Too often new bee keepers panic and remove them, now you'll have all sorts of problems! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:12:11 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Formic Acid and Acetic Acid I just wanted to drop a message because I am seeing so much on the list about formic acid as a mite control. Formic Acid (HCOOH) and Acetic Acid (CH3COOH) can both be purchased in the US from your local pharmacy or other chemical supply house for about $10-20 US per pint at strengths of greater than 90%. Yes they are dangerous but hopefully nobody would try and drink or wash in them. Breathing the vapors is the other hazard. Work on days when the breeze in blowing and keep the chemicals down wind. Wear playtex dishwashing gloves as protection for your hands and throw the gloves away when you are done. These chemicals are no more dangerous than many other household chemicals. Read the label on Drain-O or other drain opener. At the local plumbing supply house (available for sale to anyone) I can buy concentrated Sulfuric and Nitric acids. Both of these will react much more violently with human tissue than formic or acetic. Muratic Acid (HCl) is sold for a pH buffer for swinning pools and clorox (NaHClO4) is a common bleach. If the two are mixed a toxic, sometimes fatal, cloud of chlorine gas is formed. I see people talking about diazanon as an ant treatment. Read that lable if you want to see some hazardous stuff. I want to point these out to show we use dangerous chemicals all the time but we learned to read and follow instructions. Read the precautions on the apistan strips. They are a pesticide that requires special handling also. The trick is to use your brain when working with these chemicals. Would you work your bees with no smoke? For the record: Formic acid was first discovered in Germany by distilling ants. A 5% acetic acid is sold as vinegar in the stores. Some of you entomologist out there correct me, but isn't formic acid in the ant's "sting"? I will close with a question: What about smoking the hives using menthol cigarettes? I use about 3 of the cheapest menthol cigarettss I can find and it doesn't appear to hurt the bees and may have enough nicotene to harm the mites. I use 3 cigaretts per 25 grams of cotton in my smoker and the bees are calm so I don't feel it disturbs the bees. Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:41:34 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Carlos Garcia Subject: Bee repelent Hi, I have a problem with some bees and I need a repelent NON HUMAN TOXIC. I want to Know if someone can help me and tell me wath can I do ( Some comercial or self prepare product ) I live in Argentina and here, I could't find somebody to help me. If you know sonethink, please e-mail me as soon as posible. Thanks a lot. Carlos Diego Garia Duarte Quiros 1770. Cordoba. Cordoba. Argentina Phone 051-890958 cgarcia@fisquim.uncor.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:18:56 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Creamed honey In-Reply-To: <9603280007.AA27042@pipe9> On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, pats@usa.pipeline.com wrote: > Does anyone have the directions for making* creamed* honey or *spun* honey? > We have been buying it for a long time, and I would like to make it at > home. I have an article on it from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm, but the > directions are not clear. Any info would be appreciated. > Thanks > Ed > -- > pats@usa.pipeline.com I heat the honey en-masse [a relative term :-)] to about 40/45C to melt any crystals, then allow to cool to just warm before stirring in a fine-crystal seed honey like Canadian Clover or a fine oil-seed honey. Then I allow the honey to crystalise completely -- it should set with thwe same fine crystals as the seed. When I want to bottle, I warm it again to about 30C and break up the limps with a large potato-ricer/masher type tool (they are sold here by some bye some suppliers, however some beekeepers have a bicycle chain-wheel welded to a suitable rod -- choose your materials well though). Allow the bubbles to clear and jar as usual -- flows slower though ;-) Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:13:17 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Virus Alert In-Reply-To: <960331081614_181891405@emout06.mail.aol.com> >.. the virus will [...] affect modems > at 14.4 and higher. I laugh at viruses that make impossible claims. Was this _really_ posted before April 1 -- that's cheating. Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:04:05 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Varroa Treatment Device In-Reply-To: <199603300319.TAA29097@silk.net> On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, W. H. Phillips wrote: > In his post of March 29 Paul van Westendorp writes as if he knew little > about the Popodi Varroa Treatment Device. > The truth is that he has had one in his office in Cloverdale, B.C. since > March 12. One Device? If you believe that is sufficient on which to base an objective view, then I for one agree wholeheartedly with Paul! Yours, bemused of Basingstoke. -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:09:09 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BusyKnight Subject: Re: Web Page >Keep up the good work and think sring. Diana, What is sring? BusyKnight Dallas, TX busykngt@airmail.net G.E. - We bring good things to life! Also a leading producer of Thermonuclear Bombs. Life, we make it glow in the dark. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:45:27 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Fumigation to curb Nosema Comments: To: Aaron Morris In-Reply-To: <960402.092256.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Aaron Morris wrote: > _The_Hive_and_the_Honeybee_ states that Nosema contaminated equipment > can be fumigated with 80% acedic acid. Where does one procure 80% > acedic acid and what precautions should one take in its use? > Thanks in advance, > Aaron Morris In the UK, I can buy from any high-street chemist (pharmacy), though I have to order it. Industrial chemists are probably cheaper. It's fairly aggressive, so take care. I have a carbon respirator, though in truth I mostly work upwind of the stuff. It corodes many metals, e.g. comb wires and frame runners. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:35:48 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: More on formic acid ... But it also harms or even kills the brood >that is in open cells. As reported at our local bekeepers club last month, a lower concentration of formic acid solution (I believe 65%) avoids almost all brrod damage. Anyone really know the details? Logan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:40:39 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Question on Hive Hygiene: Mites and Viruses Introduced into hive via... In-Reply-To: <9604011925.AA18555@us4rmc.pko.dec.com> On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 wrote: > I'm new to bee keeping. My first packages are > due in a couple of weeks. I have been reading alot and > have a question about hive management practices. > I have heard and read numberous accounts of > winter losses to 50-90% of hives, all hives being > treated in the same manner. Why do some make it and > others not? There are lots of potential reasons, many of which take little more than common sense to explain once the rules are understood. Level of Varroa infestation; Level of virus infection, stress, other infections and so on. You name it. Something recently demonstrated here in the UK, which may be peculiar to the UK, is that a previously faily benigh virus (slow paralysis virus or SPV) can reach 'critical mass' when varroa is present. Present advice here is to try to keep varroa modest during July (e.g., using bio-tech methods) and then knock it back *hard* (e.g., by Apistan) in early August to give the colony a chance to raise 'winter bees', which I understand are physiologically different from summer bees (more body fat and so on). > If the varroa mite is introducing viruses > into bees and the virus is causing the problem then it > would seen moving frames between hives is a bad idea. > It introduces both mites and bees with the virues onto > an otherwise healthy hive. This is always a risky practice, but for some difficult to avoid. Hygiene is important, particularly where EFB and AFB are concerned! > Has anyone surveyed beekeepers, looking at the > relationship between losses and frame movement > practices? Good question, IMHO. > Cleaning the hive tool after every hive use, > sterilizing "used" equipment that is placed on hives > are a couple of naive ideas. No, they're not naive -- that's good hygiene management! We wear disposable surgical gloves. We dispose of them and sterilise our hive tools between apiaries (though not between colonies). > Irradiation (uugh) may > become a practical and normal practice if the economics > of replacing losses are great enough. Irradiation is well established for many tasks and largely considered safe (well, safer than many of the organisms it destroys, anyway). I think that fear of irradiation is mostly emotional (fair enough!), but there is always that nagging 'what if we're wrong' question. Some years ago, I used to keep marine fishes and I _always_ fed them with irradiated food, because the risks of *not* doing so were much higher. All of our pollen suplement feeds here are irradiated for the same reason. Heat alone is sufficient to kill most pathogens, however, be aware that AFB spores need around 160C wet heat (steam/wax) for 10 minutes for a sure kill. That's tough! Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:30:49 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Swarm Catching In-Reply-To: <199603310517.OAA07739@eastend.com.au> On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, David. E. Goble wrote: > >I understand putting a frame of brood or honey in the hive will encourage > >the swarm to stay, true? > > > >God Bless, > >Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu > >Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. > > > Hi Kelley; > > Not quite, its a frame of honey, old stickies or new foundation. A > frame of brood will encourage the hive to swarm, by increasing the > population. The idea is to allow the hive to expand their store of honey. I'm sure there's a minor misunderstanding here. If your bees are threatening to swarm, replacing full comb with empty comb or new foundation will reduce their tendency to do so. If you are trying to ensure that a newly hived swarm does not abscond then a frame of brood will usually to do the trick. A feeder helps, too. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:47:09 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Tobacco smoke. In-Reply-To: <9602298281.AA828115103@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > In my recent readings, I have come across some references to using > tobacco in the smoker with the implication that the tobacco smoke > kills varroa. Hi Mark, A tobacco smoke knock-down was the official method of searching for varroa in the UK until very shortly after it was found. Many people who had been using tobacco without finding mites started using Bayvarol when it was released and promptly found many hundreds or even thousands of mites. Here at least, tobacco smoke is now generally believed to be discredited. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:41:49 EDT Reply-To: jmccart@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Julie McCarthy Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: wild bees and mites Hello, Does anyone know of any information concerning the losses of wild honey bee populations due to honey bee tracheal mites and varroa? I'm working in Southern Ontario but info about the impact of mites on feral bees any where would be ofvalue (ie. degree of population declines, estimates of future impact of mites on feral bees, etc.) Thanks very much, Julie. jmccart@evbhort.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:20:49 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kiyoshi Kimura Subject: Re: NEW BEES FROM JAPAN At 3:02 96.3.22 +0000, Andy Nachbaur wrote: > ---------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------- >* The OLd Drone found this road kill on the internet highway using a >text search engine. I do believe that something was lost in the >translation as it is just a little hard to believe, skept'ic I must >bee....But since it is so close to April Fool's day I pass this gas to >my many beekeeping friends who are smart enough not to be fooled by BS >..or sometime the facts... ttul Andy- > > Dear Drons, queens and workers, I am a reseacher in Nationl Institute of Animal Institute, Japan. Dr. Amano, head, and I are working for Honeybee genetics and breeding. As Mr. Nachbaur has reported on 22th May, Dr. Amano has successfully made sting-split honeybees by Co60 radiation. The news is NOT a joke of April fool's day. And anything has been lost during translation precess. Actuary, sting-split mutant has been reported by Brazilian scientist in early 80's and known by bee researchers. This mutant has not been paid any attention because sting is very important for keeping bee in the forest. However, in Japan, pollination is the most important acpect of bee businesses, and such a kind of mutants are on demend for many years. Dr. Amano found the best condition in which you get nearly 100% sting-split workers. Most of sting-split are caused by abnormal development, but some of them may be caused by mutation of "gene or genes". Now he is working to constract strains of sting split honeybees. Normal Mendelian genetics cannot explain herdity of this characteristics, so he is also investigating the genetic system of this characteristics. In Japan, our two are the only researchers working with bees in the NATIONAL institutes, but we are very active in bee sciences. I, mayself , is working for developing transformation system for bees. My final goal is to make transgenic honeybees. Please remind that there is a national bee lab. in Japan. Kiyoshi Kimura Lab. Apiculture Department of Animal Genetics National Institute of Animal Industry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:29:23 -0800 Reply-To: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Conrad A. Berube" Subject: Repellents (long) Sorry I don't have time to be brief... Someone asked about repellents for bees a couple of days ago-- it's a pretty open-ended question and would require further diaolgue to determine what answer is really desired (something to drive bees out of supers like benzaldehyde or butyric anhydride? or something to keep bees from landing on your skin-- dousing oneself with smoke before opening a hive will work and I've used hickory barbecue smoke flavoring available at good grocery stores [as far as I can tell just an aqueous solution of smoke] as a lotion on top of clothing when I've needed to work a really nasty hive or tackle wasps' nests when a smoker was inconvenient. I've heard cassava (manioc) leaves will do the same (original posting was from somewhere 'foreign' from where I sit but can't remember if it was tropical or not): Sosu, Francis. "Cassava Leaves As Bee Repellent." Newsletter for Beekeepers in Tropical and Subtropical Countries, March 1985. Anyway, decided to address the issue since the following came across the net on another service to which I subscribe: SPRAY TO CONTROL AFRICANIZED BEES (123 AP 3/16) -- The article says peoplemay defend themselves from swarming attacks by Africanized honeybees by spraying a cloud of mosquito repellent. A USDA scientist said the chemical DEET, in mosquito repellent, keeps the bees at bay and will give a person time to escape. DEET MOST EFFECTIVE WAY OF KEEPING KILLER BEES AT BAY WESLACO, Texas (AP) Scientists have discovered that spraying a cloud of mosquito repellent may ward off swarming attacks from ``killer bees.''] Africanized honeybees are hybrids and more aggressive than the European honey bees that are dominant in the United States. They swarm more quickly and form larger colonies than common bees.] Since migrating to South Texas in 1990, the so-called killer bees have caused serious injuries and deaths. In some attacks, a person or animal will be stung by hundreds of bees.] Frank Eischen, a visiting scientist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture Honeybee Center in Weslaco, said the chemical DEET, the active ingredient in commercial mosquito repellent, is the most effective of any yet developed to keep the Africanized honeybee at bay.] ``It doesn't work in the traditional method of applying it to your skin,'' Eischen said. ``But when bees are trying to intimidate you or acting in a menacing manner, spraying it until you create a cloud keeps them from coming forward for a while, which gives you the chance to get away before they attack.''] Eischen suggests that those doing yard work carry mosquito repellent with them.] ``Bees frequently give a warning. Sometimes they come eyeball to eyeball with you. It is an attempt by them in a polite way to say, `This is my territory,''' he said. ``Most us just continue on our merry way, not understanding the signal, and the next thing we know they're pretty hostile.''] Spring and summer are when most killer bee attacks occur, he said.] ``People are out mowing their lawns and raking leaves and the bees are getting stronger and there are more of them,'' he said.] Africanized bees interbreed easily with their European counterparts. Even experts have trouble distinguishing between them.] ``I have always advocated never trusting any bee unless it's working a flower,'' Eischen said. ``Then they are generally not interested in a human or anything else.'' FARMERS LEARN TO LIVE WITH `KILLER BEES] WASHINGTON (AP) When those dread ``killer bees'' began heading northward from Brazil a quarter-century ago, headlines buzzed with undocumented tales of terror.] It's been 5 1/2 years since the creatures technically, Africanized honey bees first crossed the Rio Grande into the United States, and they have not lived up to their billing.] ``Africanized honey bees are actually a far cry from the image of the fearsome marauders constantly hunting for human victims that media hype has created,'' Hachiro Shimanuki writes in the March issue of Agricultural Research magazine.] ``What is true is that they are more defensive and generally will sting more with less provocation than the European-descended honey bees that are common in the United States.''] The hybrids are causing some problems for U.S. farmers. They are harder to transport to fields and orchards because of their temperament. They don't store as much honey as the more-common European varieties. In fact, an Agriculture Department study of the killer bees in Mexico discovered that if they are overly disturbed in their hives they will leave and take their honey with them.] Farmers in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California, Puerto Rico and St. Croix, Virgin Islands, are having to learn to live with the hybrid bees. There is no way to wipe them out without killing the European bees that are essential to agriculture.] More than 90 crops about $20 billion worth a year require pollination by honey bees. ``One mouthful in three of the U.S. diet directly or indirectly involves bee-pollinated crops,'' USDA notes.] USDA scientists found that swarms of feral bees became Africanized very quickly when the hybrids moved into Mexico. In 1988, none of the sampled swarms were Africanized; in less than three years, nearly 100 percent were.] Less than six years after Texas was invaded, the bee population is highly Africanized. And beekeepers there are having to deal with it.] ``I'm wearing gloves now all the time, when I used to handle bees with bare hands,'' William Vanderput of Pharr, Texas, told Agricultural Research. ``The Africanized bee is unpredictable; you don't know when or what provokes them. These bees are moody.''] Vanderput said the invasion has raised his costs by as much as 25 percent. He uses the recommended method of minimizing Africanization routinely replacing the queen bees in a colony with queens that have not bred with the killer bees.] USDA researchers at Weslaco, Texas, are using the Mexican experience to test chemicals that might keep the killer bees away from humans. The best they've found so far are common mosquito repellents.] But there's a catch: The chemicals have to be sprayed in a fine mist directly onto the bees. ``Just spraying your clothes didn't do any good,'' said entomologist Anita Collins.] Jose Santos Rodriguez, who manages 1,600 bee colonies in Allende, Nuevo Leon, Mexico, says the killer bees force him to wear a veil and gloves, but he isn't scared. He's even found something good to say about the hybrids: ``People who used to steal some of my honey don't anymore.'' *********** - Conrad Berube " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT " ` 1326 Franklin Terrace _- -_`-_|'\ /` Victoria, B.C. _/ / / -' `~()() V8S 1C7 \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (604)480-0223; fax (604)656-8922 / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '` ^ ^ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:03:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Clowes Subject: Re: Virus Alert As the topic is quite serious I thought it worth repeating post April 1st. It was not intended as a spoof, although I can't vouch for the sesitivity to modem speed! I understand both the pkzip and the aolgold are virus files currently available for the unwary. I'm sure there are others too. I recently downloaded Webscan from Mcaffee, but have yet to set it up. Has anyone experience of such download protection virus scanners? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Clowes Subject: Re: Virus Alert Hi Gordon I don't know about the modem sensitivity but I have seen reference to both the aolgold and the pkzip viruses elsewhere on the internet and aol usa. All references were pre April 1st. I posted a confirmatory note to the group again just to reinforce the risk! How are your bees doing. Max Watkins (our varroa man) is now a member of the bee-list and reading the threads with great interest...he has not yet taken the plunge into making a reply. He's presenting on varroa in a IBRA meeting in Devon later this year if you are interested. If you want to contact him, his email address is Max.Watkins.@gwa.sandoz.com. He lives in Odiham. All the best Ian Clowes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 05:57:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "J. David Riddle" Subject: Pollen At bee school last night I asked whether anyone knew of a book that shows pictures and descriptions of all the different colors of pollen, and no one was able to come up with an answer. I've watched the bees at different times in the year bringing in 4 or 5 different colors of pollen simultaneously and would like to look up in a book or chart just exactly what is blooming at that particular time. I've looked in some of the 'standard issue' books, but none of them seem to go into very much detail. Any ideas? J. David Riddle Newburyport, MA dmaster@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:45:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Hempstead Subject: Re: Virus Alert McAfee was selected by the systems administrators at my work place for virus protection. They permit a one month evaluation period for their product downloaded from their web site. Although I am still evaluating the product, it seems quite good. It is priced at about $60 from McAfee. The file I downloaded was about 4 megs. Try it and see if you like it. At 03:03 AM 4/3/96 -0500, you wrote: >As the topic is quite serious I thought it worth repeating post April 1st. > It was not intended as a spoof, although I can't vouch for the sesitivity >to modem speed! > >I understand both the pkzip and the aolgold are virus files currently >available for the unwary. I'm sure there are others too. I recently >downloaded Webscan from Mcaffee, but have yet to set it up. Has anyone >experience of such download protection virus scanners? > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Cote Subject: Re: Insurance Hi there! Recently, while on a hike in a neighboring State Park, the Ranger and I disscussed the idea of having an observation hive in exchange for a fenced off apiary which we might work. He loved the idea, a letter of proposal was written and wisked off to the officials at State Government. They liked it too, but said we'd have to carry $500,000 in liability insurance. Liability for what they didn't say, just for all liability. They also said we must agree not to produce more than $2,000 in profit from that apiary which, given the current state of things, is not a hard stipulation to meet. It is a simply beautiful area, surrounded by farms, and I expect wonderful for both the bees and those who work them. So I rang up my USAA homeowner's policy to find out if it would cover hives we might keep out there. "Well, we didn't know you had bees, and you have them at your house too, oh my, we'll have to re-review your policy before we renew it as this poses a serious liability risk exposure." After that came a series of very stupid questions "Do you keep them in a cage or are they just, er, out in the open?" I really don't know what's going to happen now, either with my own homeowner insurance or this wider question of liability in an out yard. Has anyone experienced anything like this? I've kept bees for 4 years at my home. I'm not sure I like life in the modern world. Tim Cote MD MPH Timothy R. Cote MD MPH Resident Pathologist and Epidemiologist Laboratory of Pathology, NIH tel. 301-496-2441 fax. 301-408-9488 tcote@helix.nih.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:00:00 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Insurance > They liked it too, but said we'd have to carry > $500,000 in liability insurance. Liability for what they didn't say, > just for all liability. The Alberta Beekeepers Association offers its members $1,000,000 in liability coverage -- for anything related to our bee activities -- for less than $20 per year. We arranged it through a major insurance company, and it is purchased, as an option, with membership each year. I imagine many other associations offer something like it, but maybe we are on the vanguard and other associations might want to look into it. Ask you local, state and national organisations. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:22:25 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Virus Alert > McAfee was selected by the systems administrators at my work place > for virus protection. I really hate discussion of viruses -- or other non bee stuff on BEE-L -- but here I go :( My understanding is that the 'software' in question is not a virus, but a Trojan Horse -- a program that does something destructive, but is distributed to the unwary (and often greedy) in the guise of being a beneficial program. No virus checker will detect this reliably because it is a program that does exactly what it it is coded to do -- wipe out your data, play tricks, or whatever. To your virus checker, it appears similar in every way to many bona fide programs such as defragmenters, HD testers, etc -- programs that you normally allow to access and write on your HD. The best virus -- and Trojan -- protection is simply: * Do not ever download software from sources that are not well known, reputable and frquently used. The good ones all scan their archives. * Do not ever run software that is mailed to you by some unknown person on the net -- even in response your own (foolish) request for, say, vbrun300.dll. (How many of you ran that screen saver that was posted here some time back? Did you know the person who posted it? Oooops!) * Be sure to scan disks that you place in your computer. McAfee is pretty good, but there are others available at all the usual software archives. Virus information is available on the net, and can be found by searching with a brouser. Let's not make it as topic here. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:28:58 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Q: Captured swarm treatment for varroa... What varroa mite treatment is suggested for captured swarms? It would seem one would want to get rid of the varroa mites before they have a chance to lay any eggs and get a foothold. Given the mites life cycle would the treatment work fast enough or would placing the queen in a cage for a few days provide a better chance of killing the mites and starting with clean brood? In conjuction with this question it would seem moving a frame of brood, capped or uncapped into an acquired swarm would be increasing the mites chances. Comments... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:35:15 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Q: Multiple package installations... I'm new to beekeeping ang get two packages in a few weeks. My hives are about 2 meters apart. What precautions should I take when installing my bees to minimize having large numbers of my second package end up in the first hive? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: stoddard jones Subject: Re: Formic acid Pad To Roy and others: For details on the effective use of pads with formic acid, contact Dr. Medhat Nasr who has done extensive work on this in cooperation with the Ontario Beekeepers' Association. 65% Formic Acid is used. MNASR@EVBHORT.UOGUELPH.CA Pads may be obtained from Davis and John Bryans at Munro Honey, Alvinston, Ontario. Phone (519) 565-2622 Fax (519) 565-5452 Results are impressive for the control of both Tracheal and Varroa mites. Good luck, Stoddard > Hello , I had a friend tell me this morning that there is a pad that is >the delivery method for formic acid , that is safe. I'm interested if >anyone has any info on a pad? I think all of us on the list have have had >enough info to show that formic acid is not really safe.I talked to me >Son last night about formic acid and pheromones. Its like using a >bulldozer in your flower bed to weed with.You will get the weeds and a >whole lot more. > Regards > Roy > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:17:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Multiple package installations... My husband and I have installed 50 - 100 packages at a time with relatively little drift. We minimize drift when we install packages by installing at the end of the day, towards sundown. The bees will naturally tend not to fly about, and after they've spent a night in their new hive, they will tend to think of it as home and not drift. If you feed them, they will be more likely to want to stick around, too. We also leave the bees in the package for 2 days after we get them, so the bees get used to the smell of their queen. I think that also helps. (Depending on how long they've been in the package before they got to you, this might not be necessary. We pick them up at the breeder's the day after they've been shaken, so the bees have a total of three days to get used to their new queen.) Our basic technique for installing is this: Take one hive body with frames. Put qeuun cage between frames. Put an empty super (no frames) on top of hive body. This empty super acts as a funnel to guide bees into frames. Spray bees in package with water (keeps them from flying too much). Shake bees out of package into empty super. The bees will land on top of frames and begin sinking down. Put lid on top of empty super. Put feeder on. Go to next hive. (After bees have sunk down, we can take empty super off. If we're in a hurry, it can be during the same visit...last step. If the location is convenient to get to, we wait until the next day.) If you can't get all the bees out of the package, you can leave the package in the empty super until the bees have crawled out of it on their own, or leave it by the front entrance until they've crawled into the hive. Alternate methods that we have used include: Screening bees in. Put a screen across hive entrance (close up any other entrances too). After shaking bees into hive, leave for a day. Next day toward sundown, pull screen. There is a risk of overheating if the hives are in the sun, but if you have to install in the middle of the day, this technique keeps them from drifting. Installing after dark. Forget it. Bees are the original Jekyl and Hyde. Beautiful graceful insects by day, crawling grumpy nasty cockroaches by night. Installing in a light drizzle. Works GREAT! Only problem....I haven't yet figured out how to call up drizzle on command. I hope this was helpful. Good luck. I think you'll love beekeeping. Shawna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Insurance Liability insurance is a pretty standard requirement. A lot of our landowners require it too. They worry about someone getting stung who turns out to be allergic to bees, or a horse getting stung and throwing its rider...that sort of thing. Here in California, we get our insurance through the California Farm Bureau. They provide our homeowner's, business liability, and vehicle insurance. Eventually, we may get health and fire insurance through them too. Most of the "urban" insurers are going to run screaming from you if you mention that you have bees. They don't understand the realities, only what they've seen on TV. If your local beekeeping organization doesn't offer any group liability insurance, talk to agricultural organizations. Many of them offer group insurance that you can take advantage of, and they won't break out into a cold sweat when you mention bees. There is a guy who advertises beekeeper's insurance in the _American Beekeeping Journal_ . I know one or two beekeepers who use him. They say, "He seems pretty good. Of course, I haven't had a claim yet." So, this is not an endorsement, but you might contact him for a quote. His name is Roger Starks, 1-800-584-7054. Good luck. Shawna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:24:19 CST6CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Rodney L. Holloway" Organization: Ag. and Environmental Safety Subject: (Fwd) mite Comments: cc: jmccart@evbhort.uoguelph.ca, rfris@tamu.edu, "PHILIP J. HAMMAN" , rfris@tamu.edu ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Rodney L. Holloway" Organization: Texas Agricultural Extension Service To: rholloway@tamu.edu Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:16:26 CST6CDT Subject: wild honey bees and parasitic mites Priority: normal Julie, Here in Texas we have been concerned for some time with the apparent decline in wild honey bee populations. The problem, however, is a lack of sound evidence. Most of what we hear is anecdotal at best. In an attempt to document our situation I have recently corresponded with Dr. Bill Wilson, USDA Honey Bee Lab in Weslaco, Texas. The following is the complete text of that letter. Rodney L. Holloway Extension Specialist Texas Agriclultural Extension Service Texas A&M University College Station, Texas 77843-2488 PS Since writting to Dr. Wilson in February ('96) I have seen popular press articles from Mississippi and Lousiana regarding the apparent demise of wild honey bees. Text of letter of February 15, 1996 to Bill Wilson Dr. Bill Wilson USDA/ARS Honey Bee Laboratory Welaco, Texas Dear Dr. Wilson: Over the past year you and I have conversations regarding the impact of parasite mites, varroa and tracheal, on Texas Honey Bees. The general consensus is that parasite mites (specifically varroa) have been devastating. Every commercial and honey bee keeper I talked with in 1995 had lost bees to varroa mites. With most operators, regardless of size, it has been one half or more of their bees killed by mites. One would expect wild honey bee colonies to be similarly affected. My office has received numerous inquiries from individual wondering why they are not seeing wild bees (aphis). Dr. Bart Drees Extension Entomologist at Bryan, Texas in his June '95 newsletter reported inquiries from home owners concerned about the absence of honey bees in backyard flower gardens. The dwindling of wild hone bee is apparently not confined to Texas. In the December '95 issue of Progressive Farmer, an article by Boyd Kidwell, "Where Hall All the Honey Bees Gone", reported an appparent absence of wild honey bees in Tennessee. Kidwell quotes John Skinner, Tennessee Extension Bee Specialist's observerations of an increase in clientele inquires concerned about an apparent absence of wild honey bees. Reporting to the South Western Branch of the Entomology Society of America in January of this year ('96) on the status of Africanized Bees (AHB) in Texas, Dr. Horace Van Cleave offered evidence for the apparent slowing of Africanized Honey Bee's northern movement. Citing unpublished data from the Texas Apiary Inspection Service (Paul Jackson and John Fick) a significant number of swarm catches in the eastern part of Texas have bee infested with varroa mites. John Fick believes this would offer some evidence for AHB movement patterns and it also provides evidence that wild honey bees are being impacted by parasitic mites. My office plans to conduct a survey of Texas bee keepers in 1996 to document pest problems encountered in their bee operations. We will query bee keepers opinion on honey bee pest problems, how they have been impacted personally and what is being done to fight diseases and pest problems in Texas honey bees. Sincerely, Rodney.L. Holloway Extension Specialist Texas Agricultural Extension Service ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:56:30 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Migration boundaries of the Africanized Honeybee? Does there exist anywhere (preferably on the web) a map that shows the extent to which Africanized honeybees have migrated into the United States? I have searched the "Africanized Bees" homepage at Texas A&M, but didn't find what I was looking for. I know the first authenticated case was in Weslaco, Texas and have heard of other incidents in California and Arizona, but what I would like to see is a map with confirmed migratory boundaries identified. Generally this is to satisfy my own curiosity, but specifically I'm concerned with the possibility of AHB genes being available to queens bred in areas that are, say 361.2 miles from Weslaco, Texas (as the car drives, not as the bees fly). This would not affect my order (which I have already placed), but it would satisfy my curiosity. Anxiously awaiting my packages! Grey pollen coming in, in upstate (Saratoga) New York! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 06:42:40 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Creamed honey The majority of honey sold in NZ is in creamed form. Contrary to the popular myths, nothing (no icing sugar, flour, or god help us, lard! - all things I've heard from the public) is added to it. Kiwi beekeepers developed the methods of consistently producing a smooth, small grained honey early this century. At some point, Dr Dyce of Cornell came out here to visit and within several years patented the Dyce process, which quantified the quantities and temperatures in common use here. (Who says I'm not proud to be a Kiwi? :-)) The basics involve 'seeding' the vat/large quantity of honey with a smaller amount (can be quite small, but larger % the better) of a honey that has granulated 'nicely', the way you want the big quantity to go. Mix thoroughly (the hard part, as stirring a big vat of honey is not easy, even with mechanical means...) Then ideally, cool to 57 deg F, the temperature at which granulation takes place most rapidly. When the honey has 'clouded' thoroughly, it can be packed and again, kept coolish until firm. And if you chose the right started, it is firm but not hard, just the right texture to spread on a piece of toast but not have it run off the edge! Some honeys cream better than others, naturally, and some (such as rata from the South Island) crystallise so quickly (and hence, with small crystals) that they don't even need a starter. A device was also invented that whips honey as it granulates, incorporating air and lightening the colour. I personally have never cared for that variation. Though creaming honey is not a difficult process, attention to detail is necessary - but once you've learned to do it, it makes a beautiful and tasty product indeed! Nick Wallingford President - Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ (\ home nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz (/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:28:20 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... In-Reply-To: On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, BusyKnight wrote: > That is the question. Tis' nobler...etc., etc.... ... to suffer the stings and arrows ...? > I've been catching queens, marking them AND clipping > wings for a few years now. Just wondering if clipping > wings is really an advantageous practice or not. I > know my *old* queens don't leave with the swarms. They > jus' kinda fly in circles. ;^) It certainly is in the UK where population density is high, swarming unpopular, and weather variable. Clipping means she *almost* can't get away and means we have a few extra days grace before the first virgin. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:15:48 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Virus Alert In-Reply-To: <960403030357_504519996@emout04.mail.aol.com> On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Ian Clowes wrote: > As the topic is quite serious I thought it worth repeating post > April 1st. It was not intended as a spoof, although I can't > vouch for the sesitivity to modem speed! Ian isn't the only person to point out that my response was misplaced, and of course they're right. I hereby apologise, however I should comment further. Computer viruses, trojans, ansi bombs and worms are all serious threats about which we must be aware. We should _always_ check for and guard against them -- we shouldn't need to be warned about them. Much as we should check for EFB, AFB, varroa and the like. I have over the years found several computer viruses, however I have caught every one before it did damage to my data (so far -- touch wood). I have also been accused of 'having a virus', because *I* found it (hence my sympathy with Nick Wallingford and NZ re Kashmir). In most cases, the accusers were the people who had passed it to me! The increasing tendency of applications, particularly for MS Windows, to self-install and self-run is a development that worries me a great deal, because we are deprived of the opportunity to virus check _before_ we run the program. After may be too late. I work regularly with various computers in various environments so I am indeed cautious. I also know that there is no possibility that a virus can do things that are sometimes claimed; Which is why I strongly suspect that this warning was a spoof, passed on in good faith as a perhaps wise precaution. A virus (etc.) cannot damage your modem, processor, RAM or almost any other part of the hardware. A virus (etc.) cannot* damage your disc drive, but it *can* damage the data in holds. (* Erm, well, there's a suggestion that trying to format some older PC EIDE drives may make them unreadable). It's unlikely, but possible, that a virus (etc.) *could* damage your screen on a PC if it sets the scan rate wildly wrong. I hope that explains why I felt I could laugh. Unfortunately, I was laughing rather than thinking. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:41:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Virus Alert ---------------------------------------- IC>From: Ian Clowes >To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L >Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:03:59 -0500 >Subject: Re: Virus Alert IC>As the topic is quite serious I thought it worth repeating post April 1st. > It was not intended as a spoof, although I can't vouch for the sesitivity >to modem speed! IC>I understand both the pkzip and the aolgold are virus files currently >available for the unwary. I'm sure there are others too. I recently >downloaded Webscan from Mcaffee, but have yet to set it up. Has anyone >experience of such download protection virus scanners? Hi Ian, Mcaffee programs are free to individual users. There are several others that are just as good or better, also free. I use Mcaffee on all the files that come in to my bbs, 29,000+ on line right now. Mcaffee is upgraded every month. No scanner will tell you if the file has been tampered with and had a destructive trojan horse added. From what I have read the problem with the files above is that they contain a trojan horse and nothing will detect that but a keen eyed sysop or down loader. I try to run every file that is uploaded to my bbs. Yes, I have found several in the last five years that were trojans that would erase you fat table or dos directory. I have learned from bad experience which files to test for trojan's. Knock wood so far I have never passed on a file to my own users that contained a virus or trojan horse. ttul Andy- _____ _____ _____ .-~~~-. / \ / \ / \ Hayes V.Fast Class/ } ----< QWK >----< $FREE > 28.8 modem. / .-~ \_____/ WILD \_____/ \_____/ \ | } / \ BEE'S/BBS \ / \ ___\.~~-.-~| .-~_ < >----< (209) >----< >----. { O | ` .-~. ; ~-.__ \_____/ \_____/ 826- \_____/ \ ~--~/-|_\| : : .-~ \ / \ 8107 / to \ / / | \~ - - ~ >----< >----< 28.8 >----< / | \ / WILD \_____/ \_____/ \_____ INTERNET \ NET / MSI \ / \ NET / \ e-mail `----< NET >----< BEENET>---< E-MAIL> \_____/ \_____/ \_____/ sysop@beenet.com --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... He has heard the quail and beheld the honey-bee, --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Haben Sie nicht auch den Drang....?? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:07:16 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Susan W. Cobey" Subject: Re: Split Stings >I am a reseacher in Nationl Institute of Animal Institute, Japan. > Dr. Amano, head, and I are working for Honeybee genetics and breeding. Dr. Amano has successfully >made sting-split honeybees by Co60 radiation. > >Kiyoshi Kimura >Lab. Apiculture >Department of Animal Genetics >National Institute of Animal Industry Having done a lot of instrumental insemination, I occassionally see split stings in queens - of various stocks, races of bees. etc. Is there scientific evidence this is developmental or genetic? My guess is its - mainly developmental. Susan Cobey Ohio State University Dept. of Entomology 1735 Neil Ave. Columbus, OH 43210 Tel.(614) 292-7928 Fax (614) 292 2180 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:34:33 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Christopher Carrigan Subject: Re: Pollen Hello, I saw a book at a beemasters course in Vancouver over ten years ago that had a number of colour plates which helped identify pollen types. It was a small hard cover book. It may have been put out by the IBRA, i am not sure though. Try Doug McCutcheon's Beekeeping books. 604-546-9870, Armstrong, B.C. Canada He has over 200 titles and one of them may be just the one you are looking for. He also helped organise that BeeMasters course so he would have seen the book then as well. good luck >At bee school last night I asked whether anyone knew of a book that shows >pictures and descriptions of all the different colors of pollen, and no one >was able to come up with an answer. I've watched the bees at different >times in the year bringing in 4 or 5 different colors of pollen >simultaneously and would like to look up in a book or chart just exactly >what is blooming at that particular time. I've looked in some of the >'standard issue' books, but none of them seem to go into very much detail. >Any ideas? ________________________________________________________ Christopher Carrigan carrigan@cyberstore.ca Arras, B.C. V0C 1B0 Canada (604) 843-7205 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:05:25 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Science Question re: HMF -Reply Comments: To: allend@internode.net For an excellent article on HMF by one of the world's leading authorities on honey chemistry, see White, J (1994). The role of HMF and diastase assays in Honey quality evauation. Bee World. 75(3): 104-117. In that article, he gives an overview of how HMF came to be used as a "quality" determinant in honey. HMF was originally looked for in honey as a check against honey adulturation. Invert sugar prepared with acid contains variable amounts of HMF, depending on the conditions used. As to whether HMF is toxic or not, White quotes the Registry of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances, published by the US Public Health Service, which says that for rats, at least, the subcutaneous toxic dose is 200mg/kg. The proposed Codex limit for HMF in honey is 80kg/mg, although there are cases of some tropical honeys straight from the comb which have a higher HMF level than this. According to White, the HMF level in a carbonated cola-type soft drink (which is sweetened by invert sugar) is 456mg/kg, or about twice as much in a 12 ounce can as the Codex limit for a kg of honey! I presume the syrup you're talking about was produced by the enzyme inversion process, which beekeepers in North America all know is supposed to be non-toxic to bees. If the syrup was produced by the acid inversion process, on the other hand, beekeepers' experience here in New Zealand would suggest that such syrup can be toxic to bees. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Re: Bee Alert! Web Page To Bee-L Members: Here is the Web page alert that Jerry put on the page late last month. Here it is again: We are pleased to announce the official launch of our Honey Bee Research Home Page. Our work focuses on using honey bees as a form of miner's canary for environmental pollutants ranging from trace elements to heavy metals and radionuclides as well as complex mixtures of organic chemicals. In addition, we study the cumulative effects of mites, food resource availability, weather, and other stressors on bee colony structure and performance. Finally, we have unique facilities for studying the effects of exotic and genetically engieered microbial pesticides (MPCAs) on whole colonies of bees. We hope that you find these pages interesting and helpful. We plan on developing pages for kids and in support of the bee industry in the very near future. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. You can find us at The University of Montana-Missoula (http://www.umt.edu) listed under Institutes, Centers, etc. The full address for Bee Alert! is: http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees Enjoy! Jerry J. Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 E-mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 Phone: (330) 263 3684 Fax: (330) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu New Phone in April will be 263 3912 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:25:31 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Re: Pollen -Reply Comments: To: carrigan@CYBERSTORE.CA Two books are available from IBRA which provide colour plates: 1) Hodges, D (1984) The pollen loads of the honey bee 2) Kirk, W (1994) A colour guide to pollen loads of the honey bee The books can be obtained directly from IBRA, or from IBRA country representatives and booksellers. You can email IBRA at - ibra@cardiff.ac.uk. They have credit card facilities. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:36:19 -0600 Reply-To: Marla Spivak Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marla Spivak Subject: HMF There was a recent message concerning HMF that I inadvertantly deleted but wanted to read. Can someone please send me that message? Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:23:39 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US Subject: Package Intallation When I install packages I, too, make sure the bees and queen are together in the package for 2 or 3 days before hiving. Then I simply dump in the bees (after removing about 3 frames to leave space) and release the queen into the clump of bees. I have not lost a queen in 13 years and up here I install every spring. Anyone else release queens directly? Anyone have problems doing it? Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:03:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Acetic Acid My understanding is that using Formic Acid as a mite control is still illegal in the United States. Has this changed? W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:21:51 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Acetic Acid with all the discussions on formic acid, ether rolls, tobacco, and the illegalities on various applications, how is someone supposed to experiment with new ideas to find improvements? i understand that laws need to be applied to protect the consumer from contamination, but aren't we hobbyist beekeepers the ones who usually find the answer to difficult problems thru observation and experimentation? my purpose of this email is not to complain about the laws, but to encourage others to continue to disseminate information about what they have found to work so that others can use and modify until we finally have a solution to the mite problem. thanks for listening to my 2C. john ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:22:14 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Re: Package Intallation In-Reply-To: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US "Package Intallation" (Apr 3, 2:23pm) On Apr 3, 2:23pm, Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US wrote: > Subject: Package Intallation < stuff deleted> > Anyone else release queens directly? Anyone have problems doing it? > My packages last year came with instructions to direct release the queen, so I did and had good results with this method. It took the queen about 4 days to start laying. I started with foundation only and the bees had the cells in the center 4 or 5 frames partially drawn very quickly. The queens had been with the bees about 4 days when I received them. I hived the bees about an hour before dusk after spraying them with water. They had been trucked here (NW Washington near the Canadian border) from northern California and were hived on April 20. The bees were out bright and early the next morning working. They wouldn't take syrup because our property is loaded with big leaf maples and there is an early flow of maple nectar when they bloom in mid-April. This year I have five packages of bees for new colonies arriving on April 5th or 6th. I am planning to direct release the queen again. Kris Bruland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:44:25 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dale Guilford I have packaged bees that were closer together and have not experienced your concern. A couple of tips I have always followed. 1. Reduce the hive enterance and fill it with some green grass. Not too tight, it will dry out a bit and the bees will remove it in a few hours. This tends to create a small space for the new bees to guard and also create difficultly for bees to leave or robber bees to enter. 2. Install the packages late afternoon or early evening. At this time of day the bees stay in the hive and have all night to adjust to their new home. Good luck! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:48:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Pollen books For those interested in identifying pollen pellets by color, there are two books on the subject that deal with the subject. The oldest is Dorothy Hodge's Pollen Loads of the Honey Bees. The newer is William Kirk's A colour guide to the pollen loads of the honey bee. Wicwas Press has both in stock, but the Hodges book has been in print since the 1950's and is in most large science or ag libraries. Note that both titles are by British authors. Larry Connor Wicwas Press PO Box 817 Cheshire CT 06410 Phone and Fax 203 250 7575 email LJCONNOR@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:55:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Q: Multiple package installations... In my experience with "recommended" package installation methods alot of bees end up in the air all confused and not very amicable. The best method I've found which works great is to install a little while before dusk, when it's still light enough to see well. After feeding the bees with syrup throught the screen (as usual), remove half the frames from the hive. Remove queen from package as usual and check her out, run a nail thru the candy after removing the cork at that end. Knock bees to bottom of package and remove cover and can. Set the package into the hive in the space you made by removing half the frames. As the bees start boiling back up out of the package, simply place the queen cage on top of the package, to the side of the round (can) hole next to the nearest frame. You will notice the bees will start converging on the queen cage once they smell her. Close up the hive and add feeder. (Entrance reduced on hive.) 5-7 days later open hive, check that queen is no longer in cage, remove package and replace missing frames. You might have to gently remove any natural "burr" comb the bees have built and shake the bees off carefully. Same goes for any bees still in/on cage. There probably won't be many. A few days later you should find eggs and larvae. This method is the least traumatic and easiest around, and extremely reliable. You don't end up with so many dazed, confused bees up in the air settling all over the place where they might not end up in the hive after all. Also less traumatic for the uninitiated beginner. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 01:17:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Science Question re: HMF -Reply CVE>From: Cliff Van Eaton >Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:05:25 +1200 >Subject: Science Question re: HMF -Reply CVE>In that article, he gives an overview of how HMF came to be used as a >"quality" determinant in honey. HMF was originally looked for in honey as >a check against honey adulturation. Invert sugar prepared with acid >contains variable amounts of HMF, depending on the conditions used. Hi Cliff, Not a very good test for many specific types of honey produced in the US that have natural high levels. Citrus, Mesquite, and many other's all premium table honey's. CVE>According to White, the HMF level in a carbonated cola-type soft drink >(which is sweetened by invert sugar) is 456mg/kg, or about twice as >much in a 12 ounce can as the Codex limit for a kg of honey! At the time this work was done it may have been true, but today in the US the soft drink industry uses corn products, and/or a mixture depending on the cost of sugar and the product. For most industrial uses hfc corn sweeteners are preferred because of the cost and the same physical properties that make Honey superior to sugar in the baking industry. They not only can save on the cost of the sweetener but can save on the energy costs if needed, and can leave out, in many cases some not so natural ingredients to increase shelf life and consumer interests in more natural foods. Hundreds of small sugar companies have gone out of business and the few that are left are not doing well, both cane and beet. Times change, more pounds of artificial chemical sweeteners are use in food manufacturing in the US then Honey. What a bummer! But what a market! CVE>I presume the syrup you're talking about was produced by the enzyme >inversion process, which beekeepers in North America all know is >supposed to be non-toxic to bees. If the syrup was produced by the >acid inversion process, on the other hand, beekeepers' experience here >in New Zealand would suggest that such syrup can be toxic to bees. I don't know of any cases of pure sugar itself harming bees in the US, but for sure many hives have been killed by the kindness of the beekeepers when they were fed more then they could handle. I am sure in the US more bees have drown in sugar syrup then have been killed because it was toxic to them. With the US price of honey now exceeding $1.00 per pound I believe that more sugar will be fed bees so more bees will be produced to make more honey which in turn will be extracted closer to be replaced with more sugar for winter feed. Many will not agree to this, but it will also provide for better bees overall in my opinion because beekeepers will be taking more and better care of the bees. Feeding large amounts of sugar is a skill that with which one soon learns to identify non productive hives...they are the one's that get robbed out because the queen was failing or gone. Millions of pounds of sugar are fed bees in California each year if there were dangers you can be sure we would have found them and you would know about it. California beekeepers buy sugar on price and we have been an important factor in the off season sugar market. No sugar company is going to knowingly damage that business by selling sugar that is harmful to our bees and we have always been treated as a valuable customer by the sugar industry in California and they have provided much technical experience to beekeepers when we need it. Many years ago the price of sugar got so high that I could not afford to feed it. So I turned to the world honey market and purchased several containers of honey, from Australia. It was good honey and the bees did well on it, no problems at all.. But they did NO better then they do when fed sugar syrup, and that was a big disappointment and lesson to me. And one that I have had to relearn in wintering my bees several times since. Too much honey left on bees in this part of California retards their growth in the spring and may cause many other problems. By too much I mean more then enough, or all they make in one season. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. (U) Happy Passover! --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Where the bee sucks, there suck I; ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:48:44 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Rudolf E. Bahr" Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... In-Reply-To: Hello busy Knight, do you accept answers from NON-BRITISH types too? :-) Once more, Br. Adam himself gives the answer in one of his books: Already in the year 1969 he wrote, that they never put a queen into a colony without clipping the half of one wing and that they never noticed any disadvantage all over the last 50 years! Beside the clipping they used no other marking of their queens. This means, that right from the beginning, since he has been responsible for the apiary in Buckfast Abbey in 1919, they must have cut wings. Regards, R.E.Bahr NISI APES FINIS On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, BusyKnight wrote: > etc.... > > Also, from you BRITISH types out there: Can you tell > me what the 'normal procedure' of Buckfast Abbey is? > Do they normally clip wings or not? Does Brother Adam > have an opinion on rather one should or should not clip > wings? > > BusyKnight > Dallas, TX > busykngt@airmail.net > G.E. - We bring good things to life! > Also a leading producer of Thermonuclear > Bombs. Life, we make it glow in the dark. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 13:19:39 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: HFCS & HMF, etc. If anyone is interested, and it seems many are, visit www.internode.net/~allend/hfcs.jpg I'll have this article in the directory for a day or two only. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:48:11 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cammie Hughes Subject: Too many eggs? First I must explain that this is the first time I have posted a question to the list and I hope I haven't messed it up somehow, if so, I appolozise in advance. I did try to reply once and made a mistake for which I got several messages letting me know it was not appreciated. My question is: a couple of days ago I found a hive that had up to 3 eggs in one cell and the laying pattern was very spiratic with cells missed. I replaced the queen but I am still puzzled about this behavior. I have read that this is a sign of a laying worker, but this hive had a queen. Can it also have a laying worker, or do queens sometime do this too? Cammie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 14:48:05 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Marketing Your Honey Crop Gentlepeople: Although this may not necessarily be a "scientific" question or a question about the biology/behavior or management of bees, I think some discussion regarding marketing would be a good thing to open on the list. If you think not, forgive the post and ignore it. I am curious as to how the beekeepers on the list sell, distribute, or otherwise market their honey crops. Is there any consistency in our approaches or, like many other things associated with beekeeping, is the marketing of hive products something that each beekeeper individualizes based on his expertise, desire to work, marketing savvy, products, objectives, and so on. Perhaps it would be instructive to hear how we are collectively working on this issue. Take a look at the following questions and answer those you feel led to address: How many hives do you run? Do you retail your products yourself? What products do you carry? What are your outlets: Festivals? Shops? Grocery? Roadside Stands? Friends, relatives, and neighbors? What are your prices? Do you wholesale your products? Is your customer base long standing or do you have new customers each season? If you add new customers, how do you "find" them? Do you have a marketing approach and plan or does it "just happen". I know that there are many bee scientists that tune into this List and who focus on the bees themselves, but I wonder how many business/marketing types are out there who might know of studies or books that could be shared regarding marketing of ag products such as the hive products we produce. Just curious.... Any comments...? Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Q: Captured swarm treatment for varroa... If you want to get rid of Varroa in a fresh swarm, add an Apistan strip when you make your inspection a week after hiving the swarm. Put the strip in the middle of the active brood area. You'll only need one strip because the brood area will be small. Take the strip out after it has been in for 6 weeks. After that, the colony will go on your regular mite treatment program. For those of you who wish to use the swarm colony as a permanent increase to your colonies, I'd definitely recommend the treatment described above. However, for those of you who have some spare equipment and are willing to sacrifice a colony to the search for the mite resistant bee, may I suggest not treating the colony for mites, not requeening it (supersedure is ok) and seeing if it survives a year and a half. If it does, the folks at the USDA Bee Labs(Tom Rinderer and Bob Danka) would love to hear from you. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 02:46:00 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Durk Ellison Organization: Metropoli BBS Finland Subject: Pollen In-Reply-To: <199604031057.FAA27387@mailserver2.tiac.net> The Pollen Loads of the Honey Bee by Dorothy Hodges is perhaps a clasic for pollen colours and Pollen Loads, A colour guide to pollen loads of the honey bee by Willam Kirk. Both these excelent books are available from the IBRA However, I must add that colour is very unreliable in determining plant source. Have Fun Regards Durk Ellison e-mail: Durk.Ellison@knowledgebase.fi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:01:50 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: Q: Multiple package installations... At 10:35 3/04/96 EST, you wrote: > I'm new to beekeeping ang get two packages >in a few weeks. My hives are about 2 meters apart. >What precautions should I take when installing my >bees to minimize having large numbers of my second >package end up in the first hive? > > Thanks. mmm??? You can't really avoid some bees to drift from one hive to the other, and if both colonies are yours, all the honey at the end will be yours, regardless of wich colony is comming from, (unless you are conducting a very precise experiment where is necessary to avoid drifting bees). The colonies will accept drifting bees specially if are coming home with plenty of 'goodies' like pollen and/or nectar. Cheers Mauricio somewhere in the land of kangaroos... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 22:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Too many eggs? Sounds like laying workers. Just because you have a queen physically in the hive (I assume she has been seen within the past week) does not mean she is laying eggs. As long as your question/comment has something to do with bees and or beekeeping, it is welcome here. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:10:38 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "mikes@erudite.com (Michael Scott)" Subject: Hive covers Does anyone have any info on migratory vs telescoping hive covers. Pros/Cons etc. We have been using migratory but have been reading about telescoping and were considering switching over. Anything will be appreciated. Thanks, Mike Scott ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 23:37:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Too many eggs? In a message dated 96-04-04 15:47:22 EST, you write: >My question is: a couple of days ago I found a hive that had up to 3 eggs >in one cell and the laying pattern was very spiratic with cells missed. I >replaced the queen but I am still puzzled about this behavior. I have read >that this is a sign of a laying worker, but this hive had a queen. Can it >also have a laying worker, or do queens sometime do this too? > > Did the queen look old and tired? A queen that is near the end of life will sometimes do this. Usually the abdomen is not swelled as much as a younger queen; often she will look a bit greasy, and have frayed wings. It's not likely a laying worker, if you saw the queen. Laying workers put the eggs on the sides of the cells, often 10 or 20 of them. Queens put them on the bottom. There is another possibility: They may have superseded, and the young queen hasn't quite got the hang of it yet. I have seen queens do this occasionally in their first few days of laying. Of course she'll look like a young queen, and you'll see remnants of the recently used queen cell. A young queen that lays multiple eggs may be okay; she should be checked again in a few days. If she still hasn't straightened out, it's time to replace her. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:47:06 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Package Intallation In-Reply-To: <9604031622.ZM14799@VIOLET.CHEM.WWU.EDU> On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Kriston M. Bruland wrote: > On Apr 3, 2:23pm, Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US wrote: > > Subject: Package Intallation > > < stuff deleted> > > > Anyone else release queens directly? Anyone have problems doing it? > > > > My packages last year came with instructions to direct release the queen, > so I did and had good results with this method. It took the queen about 4 > days to start laying. I started with foundation only and the bees had the > cells in the center 4 or 5 frames partially drawn very quickly. > > The queens had been with the bees about 4 days when I received them. I hived > the bees about an hour before dusk after spraying them with water. - Hi I have released directly for about 20 years. I cheat a little.I put a few drops af vanilla extract in a pint spray bottle and give the bees a few sprays when I have them poured into the new hive. Then I give the queen cage a little spray and release the queen down in between the frames. I time I opened up a queen cage and the queen took off flying around and I set the queen cage down and the queen landed on it, which gave me time to grab her. They have a great keen sense of smell , now I'm careful to keep her in the cage until my hand is down in the hive. I going down to California in the morning to pick up 70 packages and some queens.When you hive more than 30 its good to have help. Preplanning is very important.Have the feeders done and if your going to have brood with the package have someone help and only do the brood.That way the brood boxs can have the cover put on after each frame is taken out. You just need extra hands so you don't get some robbing started.I do it in the evening like most everyone else. That is important. I'm just like one of my kids tonight, can't wait until 4:00 AM when we leave to get the bees.I'm glad I booked my order in January I have been told that most of the breeders are all booked up for the year.If that is true , we need to get more beekeepers educated about the mite , but most of them now like myself have learned the hard way. You blink your eye and Varroa will get you a lot faster than you realize. Stress, stress and stress of any kind and things bad happen fast.Put in a apistan strip in if your in the US when you hive your bees.Put it where the bees go in and out of the hive. I reduce the opening to the middle and place one strip close to the front of the box in the middle. Bee Happy Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:27:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop > Gentlepeople: > > Although this may not necessarily be a "scientific" question or a > question about the biology/behavior or management of bees, I think > some discussion regarding marketing would be a good thing to open on > the list. > Any comments...? > > Mark Egloff > MEGLOFF@CSC.COM Mark, Giving the fact that the proceeds from marketing our honey provide us with the funds to continue beekeeping, I am interested in the very volatile market we are selling in. We are very happy the bulk honey market has gone up, and I think it's way overdue. If the prices offered by packers would have remained flat, we would be in a major pinch restocking our hives this spring. In a previous posting I mentioned the large amount of blowouts we had this winter, about 40%. If it wasn't for the better pricing........... We just got offered .95 a lb. and I have reports of better that a $1.00/lb.paid on loads. Just three weeks ago we sold a load at .85/lb. Our biggest problem is trying to get the price up in the supermarkets. If we priced our honey in the stores based on .95/lb. honey, we would be far above the rest of the pack. It's tempting to sell off all our stocks at the wholesale rate and quit packing. I have found that packing honey is not very profitable. What effects are the increasing honey prices going to have on consumer and industrial users? It would be good to see some stability. Kirk Sleeping Bear Apiaries Kirk Jones b-man@aliens.com when you get lemons, make lemonade.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:04:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... Two cents more: I don't see the need to clip queens, though it appears to be common practice with many folks. At best it might cause a swarm to return to the hive for a couple more days, when it could leave with a virgin. Looking at the "big picture," however, by the time a colony has so many swarm cells in development that it is going to swarm, there are more siginificant physiological changes that have already occurred in the colony. The queen's laying tapers off, there is reduced foraging and storage; normal activities begin to slow down in general. If, on the other hand, swarm control measures are taken before this point is reached, the colony remains in a state of high growth/production. In my experience this means taking control measures (removing brood a/o bees) at about the time when eggs or young larvae start to show up in queen cups. Rather than just mash them and reassemble the hive, take it as a symptom of the underlying condition of the colony and take measures immediately to remove the congested state of the brood nest. I have sometimes worried that I took too many bees or frames of brood from colonies at this point, only to return to find them working with new vigor and collecting honey in quantity as compared to colonies not so treated. Clipping does have the advantage of helping you to determine whether a queen has died (or left) and been replaced. I'm not sure about the pro's and con's, supersedure-wise (i know some of the animal rights crowd have even expressed disdain for the practice of clipping!) but I'm quite sure I am too clumsy to make a regular practice of it without queen injury. So it's never become part of management for me. Additional info on this topic would be interesting. Anyone? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:35:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ralph W. Harrison" Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop I am a hobby beekeeper in the northeast (CT) that markets around 300 lbs. of honey a year. What I do is to go to Christmas fairs that different groups run. I rented a space (usually from $20-$40) and sold honey and beeswax products (candles and beeswax orniments). From the fairs I have built up a customer base for my raw honey sales. I also speak to civic groups. I do not charge for my programs but I do take some honey to sell. I have found that I do better at fairs in upscale areas (the people are more aware of natural foods and they have more income to spend, also my honey and beeswax products is usually one of the cheeper things to purchase at theise fairs (I sell my raw honey for $3.00 a pound). Good luck in your marketing! AND DONT SELL YOUR HONEY AT GIVE AWAY PRICES! Ralph Harrison harrisonrw@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 06:48:58 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop > Although this may not necessarily be a "scientific" question or a > question about the biology/behavior or management of bees, I think > some discussion regarding marketing would be a good thing to open on > the list. > Any comments...? > > Mark Egloff > MEGLOFF@CSC.COM Mark, Without money nothing happens. He who has the gold rules. Need any more reasons everyone? James Peterson PhD. Giving the fact that the proceeds from marketing our honey provide us with the funds to continue beekeeping, I am interested in the very volatile market we are selling in. We are very happy the bulk honey market has gone up, and I think it's way overdue. If the prices offered by packers would have remained flat, we would be in a major pinch restocking our hives this spring. In a previous posting I mentioned the large amount of blowouts we had this winter, about 40%. If it wasn't for the better pricing........... We just got offered .95 a lb. and I have reports of better that a $1.00/lb.paid on loads. Just three weeks ago we sold a load at .85/lb. Our biggest problem is trying to get the price up in the supermarkets. If we priced our honey in the stores based on .95/lb. honey, we would be far above the rest of the pack. It's tempting to sell off all our stocks at the wholesale rate and quit packing. I have found that packing honey is not very profitable. What effects are the increasing honey prices going to have on consumer and industrial users? It would be good to see some stability. Kirk Sleeping Bear Apiaries Kirk Jones b-man@aliens.com when you get lemons, make lemonade.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:32:25 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: cfi Organization: CyberForm International, Inc. Subject: research on sound to stop bees I am looking for a research group to investigate which frequency will stop bees in flight. Help? Glenn Jacobs 214 690-7700 voice 214 690-7999 fax CFI 407 International Prkwy, Suite 403 Richardson, TX 75081 USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:25:09 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Early Subject: Thanks to Flemish beekeepers Greetings all, I am a cataloger at the Center for Research Libraries in Chicago, IL. Way back in January I sent a request for help from the Belgian beekeepers subscribed to this list. It involved untangling a confusion of journal subscriptions we were getting from possibly 2 competing Flemish Beekeeping organizations with essentially the same name. I can finally say that the situation is 100% resolved (of course, I worked on other things besides this, but this project lingered for far longer than its alloted 15 minutes). My thanks to all the respondants to my query, but especially to Hugo Thone and Martin Benoit who researched and telephoned their way to the answers to my questions. They deserve large amounts of the finest mead (if anyone makes it anymore). May their hives be forever varroa free! I shall now, regrettfully, unsubscribe from this quite interesting list. Have a productive summer. And if any of you in Florida run across Andrei (Arnold) Davydov, the Kieven beekeeper who indirectly started all this (it's a long story), please pass on my greetings. Steve Early Serials Cataloger Center for Research Libraries Chicago, IL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:33:37 -0600 Reply-To: marshl4@ncesc.org Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Marshall Subject: Installation of package Can packaged bees be installed into a hive of mostly over wintered honey stores? How many open celled frames should be available for laying or will they upcap and use the available honey to make the necessary space. Is it best to uncap the frames when the package is hived and not feed the package to encourage them to clean up honey frames in the lost hive? Thanks for any comment. -- --------------------------------------------------------- Robert S. Marshall Hawthorn Woods IL marshl4@ncesc.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:54:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Hiving Bees >1. Reduce the hive entrance and fill it with some green grass. Not too >tight, it will dry out a bit and the bees will remove it in a few hours. > This tends to create a small space for the new bees to guard and also >create difficulty for bees to leave or robber bees to enter. But equally as important is to confuse the field bees, to prevent them zinging off without noting where they live. We do this every time we make a nuc or move a hive, even over a few feet. Try it, it works. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:57:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Migration boundaries of the Africanized Honeybee? >I know the first authenticated case was in Weslaco, Texas and >have heard of other incidents in California and Arizona, but what I >would like to see is a map with confirmed migratory boundaries >identified. Generally this is to satisfy my own curiosity, but >specifically I'm concerned with the possibility of AHB genes being >available to queens bred in areas that are, say 361.2 miles from >Weslaco, Texas (as the car drives, not as the bees fly). This would not >affect my order (which I have already placed), but it would satisfy my >curiosity. I can't help with this request, but would like to make a point. Some one asked why our border was closed to bees from down South? This is the reason, to try prevent AHB genes from polluting our gene pool, whether deliberately or accidently. If you're the slightest bit nervous about contamination by AHB, my advice, buy your queens from up north, we know we are pure!!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Acetic Acid >i understand that laws need to be applied to protect the consumer from >contamination, but aren't we hobbyist bee keepers the ones who usually >find the answer to difficult problems thru observation and experimentation? > >my purpose of this email is not to complain about the laws, but to >encourage others to continue to disseminate information about what they >have found to work so that others can use and modify until we finally >have a solution to the mite problem. Right On!! But even when we have proven methods that really work, the attitude seems to be, ignore it. In particular I refer to the Formic Acid furore just recently. Here in Ontario extensive work has been done on Formic Acid against mites, both on the delivery, and the effectiveness, it works! Add to this the work done on T-mite resistant Queens, and our breeding program. Why then do a number of our Southern cousins either reject the findings, or worse still want to start back at square one? Why can't we accept findings, especially from respected members of our fraternity, and go on from there? What a complete and utter waste of time, no wonder it takes us so long to get things moving!! The Europeans have had T-mite and Varroa far longer, and seem to have a good handle on preventative methods of control, why not use that information and where possible expand on it? My appeal, lets quit the in-fighting and work together for the common good, T-mite and Varroa are no respectors of inter-national boundaries. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:45:26 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: gray cells Comments: cc: day@phoenix.svri.com hi everyone, i lost my only hive over the winter. took a look in early feb, still had a nice cluster of bees. a few days later, i noticed no bees flying, and after opening the hive, no bees were found. oh well...... i've noticed a strong fermented smell, which i attribute to uncapped honey gone bad. i also see patches of gray dried cells scattered among normal creamy looking comb. first year stuff, so still pretty new. question is, what is the gray stuff? does afb manifest itself like this too? should i scrape the stuff out or leave the next batch to clean up? will my next batch of bees get infected from this? thanks in advance for your help!!! john santa cruz, california ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:07:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Susan W. Cobey" Subject: Re: Instr. Insemination Class Annoc. INSTRUMENTAL INSEMINATION AND HONEY BEE BREEDING SHORT COURSE AT THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY June 19, 20, 21, 1996 An intensive three day course on the technique of instrumental insemination and bee breeding will be offered at the Ohio State University Rothenbuhler Honey Bee Research Laboratory in Columbus, Ohio. The course is scheduled for Wednesday through, Friday June 19. 20, and 21. The class is designed for commercial beekeepers who are involved in a breeding program or who want to improve upon an existing program. It is also designed for laboratory personnel requiring the skill for research purposes. A practical hands-on approach to instruction is provided with emphasis on individual attention. Participants become familiar with the assembly and alignment of equipment and sterilization methods. Various types of insemination instruments are displayed and their features reviewed. The preparation and care of virgin queens and drones, post-insemination care and introduction of inseminated queens will be discussed in detail. Basic bee genetics and various breeding systems will be presented. Demonstration materials, virgin queens and drones will be provided. Participants receive a booklet reviewing methods of bee breeding and the technique of instrumental insemination. Instructor: Susan Cobey Classes are taught by Susan Cobey, who has extensive experience in the technique and has published numerous articles in beekeeping literature on related topics. Prerequisite: Knowledge of queen rearing experience is required. Beekeepers must provide their own insemination equipment. Microscopes can be provided for use upon request. Registration: Registration is $300. Lodging, meals and transportation are not included in the registration fee. Information on lodging will be included in the registration packet. Enrollment is limited and will be based upon beekeeping experience. Interested beekeepers are required to fill out an application. Deadline for registration is May 20, 1996. For information and registration materials contact: Susan Cobey Ohio State University Dept. of Entomology 1735 Neil Ave. Columbus, OH 43210 Tel.(614) 292-7928 Fax (614) 292 2180 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:19:04 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: G C Allison Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <199604031057.LAA26545@typhoon.dial.pipex.net> > >. David Riddle asked about books showing pollen colours: > Hi David, Have you seen : The Pollen Loads of the Honeybee by Dorothy Hodges published by IBRA, ISBN No 0 86098 140 1 and: A colour guide to pollen loads of the honey bee by William Kirk also published by IBRA, ISBN No 0 86098 216 5 Geoff Allison, Dalbeattie, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 13:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: gray cells Probably fungus or mold. A new colony will clean it all up pronto. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:03:19 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: another question Comments: cc: day@phoenix.svri.com as a follow up to my previous question about gray cells, is it harmful to leave fermenting honey in combs for the next colony? or are they just gonna party all night? thanks, john ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 13:41:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop KJ>From: Kirk Jones >Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:27:59 -0500 >Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop KJ>Giving the fact that the proceeds from marketing our honey provide us with >the funds to continue beekeeping, I am interested in the very volatile >market we are selling in. Hi Kirk, The reports of "sales" coming to this office do not indicated a volatile market, but do show a rising world market due to the demand for honey exceeding the world supply. At the same time world disposable income is increasing production of honey is decreasing. This was apparent to most by mid season 1995 in the USA. The price asked and paid for off shore honey has been increasing since last fall when it was realized that off shore production from several major areas of the world had not come up to expectations including the US production. It is expected that until the 1996 crop size is known that the honey price will continue to increase and then level off, hopefully above the $1.00 range. Maybe between 1.10 to 1.25, with off shore supplies just below $1.00 fob port duty paid. KJ>We just got offered .95 a lb. and I have reports of better that a >$1.00/lb.paid on loads. Just three weeks ago we sold a load at .85/lb. I know one Texas producer who sold two loads of this years honey last fall at $.70, he is delivering a clean up load this week of last years honey at $1.10 and will still deliver the two loads later on this year of 1996 production at $.70, he is a happy camper. New crop Orange Honey is moving at over $1.00 per pound. Reports are that the Florida Orange Honey crop is spotty. Old crop from various areas of the US as of this week has reached new all time highs to beekeepers at $1.10. Off shore and SA prices are quoted as high as $.97 cents. KJ>Our biggest problem is trying to get the price up in the supermarkets. If >we priced our honey in the stores based on .95/lb. honey, we would be far >above the rest of the pack. It's tempting to sell off all our stocks at the >wholesale rate and quit packing. I have found that packing honey is not >very profitable. Price increases are always a problem for all honey packers regardless of size. Historically they have been easier to pass on to the producer. One large US domestic honey packer was forced to turn to SA (Argentina) with purchases of 4+ million pounds earlier this winter over their normal purchases of 100% domestic honey. The large co-op packer in the US expects (hopes) to return $0.80 cents to their members for the 1985 crop. KJ>What effects are the increasing honey prices going to have on consumer and >industrial users? It would be good to see some stability. Major packers have already increased their wholesale prices and the shelf prices are two dollars or more per pound reflecting today's price in many areas. What the future foretells is anyone's guess. For the 1996-97 honey marketing season in the US it is up to the producers at what price they need to bee happy. The US beekeeping industry has always been different then any other commodity group. "We have always been able to resist prosperity." It has always amazed me in talking with beekeepers during periods of increasing prices that you will find many producers complaining about prices being too high. These are normally those who have sold earlier on a upward moving market. I am sure the average price paid for the 1995 crop will exceed the price the majority of beekeepers sold at during 1995. For the first time in the history of honey production in the US the early market for honey is at one dollar or more per pound. This is still way below parity using any of the formulas. Price the replacement cost of your existing trucks and equipment over ten or twenty years. My advise to most beekeeper packers: SELL high now.. Blame it on the Vampire Mites, or Bee PMS USA, or honey producers with MAD COW symptoms, but sell. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. (C)Happy Easter! (U)Happy Passover! (UK)Beef Producers, tough luck! --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Where the bee sucks, there suck I; ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:12:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: comb honeypacking I produce comb honey exclusively. I expect (hope?) to produce about 200 boxes for sale this summer. To prevent leakage inside the cardboard boxes, I seal the basswood boxes with thermo-sealing freezer bags. However, this is very time-consuming. Does anyone out there have suggestions for other techniques or devices to speed up this process? Thanks in advance. bill mares ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 19:39:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James Subject: Re: gray cells At 08:45 AM 4/5/96 -0800, you wrote: >hi everyone, > > >question is, what is the gray stuff? does afb manifest itself like this too? >should i scrape the stuff out or leave the next batch to clean up? will >my next batch of bees get infected from this? > >thanks in advance for your help!!! > >john >santa cruz, california > >John, That grey stuff could be crystallized honey, but you could always take a frame or two to your extention agent if he/she happens to be nearby. James Jacobs beekeeper organic farmer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Acetic Acid Dave Eyre wonders why his Southern friends cannot enjoy the benefits of Formic Acid. The reason is called bureaucracy, regulation, protecting the health of the public, or whatever you want to call it. Distilled to its essence, the use of Formic Acid as a mite control agent is still illegal in the United States (If anybody has heard to the contrary, please post the news). Believe me, I'd love to see Formic Acid mite treatments become legal in this country. Having a good idea banned by regulation works both ways: I understand that using Ethylene Dioxide for fumigating American Foulbrood contaminated equipment is illegal in Canada, while I have been using fumigated equipment quite successfully. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:49:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "James D. Satterfield" Subject: Bee Candy I've gotten things underway to rear 50 or so queens for my own use this spring and summer. I'm doing some grafting as well as trying Miller strips. I may be holding some of the queens in a "nursery" above a queen excluder as well as transporting some of them in queen cages with workers and candy. I read the discussions earlier about candy for queen cages, but I really don't care to make any up. I thought I'd try some of the over-the-counter candy to see what might be satisfactory. I made up five 3-hole queen cages. I stocked each cage with one type of candy and five worker bees. I used the following types of candy: Caramel: a block of caramel that is wrapped in cellophane. Cream Caramel: a round slice of caramel that has a center of white powdered sugar type stuff. Circus Peanut: an orange, soft candy Fruit Slices: a jelly-type candy with sugar crystals on the outside. They are produced in various flavors... I used an orange slice and a lemon slice. I realize that these candies are not found worldwide, but there may well be similar types. I wonder how the Japanese rice candy, "moshi" if I remember correctly, would work??? One trial doesn't constitute a very good experiment, but so far it seems that the fruit slices, lemon in particular, work well. The circus peanut seems to be used readily. The caramel is taken, but it is dense and would last a long, long time...too long in my opinion. The cream caramel was strange: four of the five workers I placed in the cage with it were dead within an hour, the other worker is doing well. I need to replicate the trial with cream caramel...and the other candies as well if I want meaningful results. So far most of the workers have lived about three days on these candies. I'm sure that there are a number of beekeepers on BEE-L who have done what I'm doing with different candies. I would enjoy hearing of your experiences. I don't want to start a thread that would bring down the wrath of a netcop on me, so if you would just post directly to me I would be grateful. Best wishes for a good honeyflow this year. Cordially yours, Jim -------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | P.O. Box 2243 ------------------------------ | Decatur, GA 30031, USA 258 Ridge Pine Drive | | S.E. United States or Canton, GA 30114, USA | | Telephone (404) 378-8917 Telephone (770) 479-4784 | -------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 22:11:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Corn syrup/sorbital? Several beekeepers who have purchased corn syrup from one source have had problems with some barrels. Last week, I had one barrel that the bees simply would not touch. It was partially crystallized; the crystalized part was hard as a rock. There is no way, that the bees will touch it. If you spray them with it, the next day they will have white powder on their backs, where it has dried without being licked off. One of the beekeepers thinks it is "sorbital" rather than corn syrup. We are going to have to do some backtracking to see how this could have gotten mixed in with a load of corn syrup. I don't know anything about it. It tastes like corn syrup to me, but obviously not to the bees. It doesn't seem to have hurt them, except for not getting needed feed at a time when some hives were close to starvation. Can anyone provide more info? Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 00:43:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Bee Candy Hi James. I've used marshmallows (the white puffy candy) for queen cages before. Seemed to do the trick just fine. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 09:03:27 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Swarms and Apistan Have not had a swarm since Varroa arrived in my apiary so cannot speak from experience. Could you explain why wait a week. At that time and from then on there will be larvae and mites will be entering cells. Is there any reason why we should not hit them from day one when all the mites are on the bees and have nowhere else to go? _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 08:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Three nice days: Report from Carolina It's been a rough spring. We had 19 degrees F, during the early fruit bloom, so don't expect to see many fresh peaches on the northeastern market this summer. The bees hardly touched the wild plums, a major early nectar source. The pistol was black in most of the flowers I saw. The freeze was followed by rain, and more rain, interspersed with gray cold days. An occasional good day never seemed to produce the desired result (some nectar coming in). We have been feeding and feeding and feeding, with bees right up to the edge of starvation. We were beginning to think we had the infamous killer bees. Huge, strong colonies, with no flow = robbing and general meanness. We finally have had three good days in a row. What a difference! I have been watching familiar blossoms come and go with no real result, and getting VERY worried. Yesterday the bees had their bellies so full they could hardly waddle. They were totally indifferent to whatever we did. I believe there were some colonies that brought in 30 lbs of nectar yesterday (translates to 5-10 lbs of honey, if they don't eat it back up). Carolina cherry is in full bloom. Wild huckleberry is wide open. Dewberries are opening. There are plenty of mint-type herbs open, such as anise hyssop. Wisteria is beginning to open. There is a lot of yellow jasamine this year, which bees do not usually work much. If conditions are poor, and they work jasamine, there will be a lot of dead brood (blue brood, we call it) from poisoning. The bees develop to just before emergence, then die, and whole sections of uncapped dead bees will be seen. They have a bluish purple color. It seems to take the bees quite a while to clear them out. I just hope the flow continues. We are 8-10 days behind a normal season. Many of the southeastern queen and package producers are warning northern customers that they will be late this year. One major one has rescheduled all shipments for at least a week later than planned. Today it is colder. Forcasters are predicting very cold Easter Sunday, with possible freeze Sunday or Monday night. Please, God, don't let it! Amen. We are wide open. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 09:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Timothy Cote Subject: Re: Overwintering mininucs Hello there-- Recently there was an article in Bee Culture about raising Northern bees using an alternative approach; overwintering mininucs with laying queens directly above a more established colony. Because here in Maryland beekeeping is, well, frankly pretty boring after our 6-8 week honey flow (which is about to begin), I'm thinking about trying to raise a few queens this summer/fall and overwintering them. The author of the Bee Culture article wrote, with literary swagger, that perhaps the North will soon export packages and queens to the South. I expect that much of this is puffery but wonder if anyone else has tried it and met his claims of <30% loss (a real advantage, he says, as the natural selection of winter culls the weaklings from superior stock). I'm attracted to the idea but skeptical--is anyone else? Tim Cote MD MPH Timothy Cote MD MPH 512 Boston Ave Takoma Park, MD 20912 301-587-2425 fax 301-587-6192 tcote@helix.nih.gov beesbuzz@mail.erols.gov ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 07:53:39 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: The Worst Winter I can Recall in Recent Years Thanks, Dave for your report from SC, USA. Up here in the Great White North, Alberta, Canada to be specific, we are seeing signs of spring -- finally. Although we still have snow here, we are seeing it go fast. Last night was the first night above freezing I can recall lately, and there are puddles in the yard. Our pond is full to overflowing, and the runoff hasn't yet finished. Usually it is over March 17th! Winter set in early, and we have had more snow this past winter than we've had for the last twenty or so. Snowmobile dealers can't wipe the grin off their collective face -- after ten or more years of tough sledding. The worst thing is that we had very few warm breaks duing the winter, and the bees had to really work to get onto new stores. Many winters, the bees have cleaned their bottom boards in December or Jan. Not this year. Losses in Alberta are reported as varying from 10% to 100%, with the most typical and believable ones being in the 15% to 60% range. Indooor losses seem to be about the same as outdoor, but with no reports over 40% that I've heard. Outdoor colonies have used a great deal of feed in comparison by most reports. Of course, all the losses are not known until May, because colonies surviving now may still decline. In our own operation, we have some yards around 10% and some at 50%+, so we will likely be around 35% when the dust settles. This is double the norm for us. Due to the higher prices for honey, and in some cases, high losses, larger than usual numbers of package bees & queens will be coming in from both Australia and New Zealand. The Canada/US border is still closed to importation, and although the situation is being evaluated regularly, it appears that it will be for some years to come. As a result Canadian beekeepers are paying double what US buyers are for bees -- but then again the bees they are buying are totally mite free, allowing for operations to maintain -- or regain -- mite free status. The down side is that most commercial producers here say that the NZ and to a lesser extent Aus bees do not winter as well as the US stock did when we were last able to obtain it in the 80's. This closed Canadian border has taken pressure off the US package market at a time when mites have reduced the supply. Imagine if Canadians demande 50 - 100,000 additional packages from the US. In recent years, the US package industry has had trouble supplying the US market in a timely fashion, so I can project that prices to US buyers would double. Even at hugely inflated prices, both Canadians and US honey producers would have trouble finding enough bees before May from US producers alone. At any rate, we are hoping for decent spring weather. After the cool , unsettled summer last year, and the cold, unrelenting winter, we are not all that optimistic. The conditions reported by Dave seem to indicate that unusual coolnes is general, but the conditions can vary a lot over a continent. That's the story from here. How are things in the central and western US? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:21:54 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Collin Forbes Subject: Re: Bee Candy In-Reply-To: On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, James D. Satterfield wrote: > Caramel: a block of caramel that is wrapped in cellophane. I remember reading that carmelized sugar will give bees dysentary. (I'm not a beekeeper, just an interested reader) .signature

Collin Forbes


"Friends Don't Let Friends Abuse HTML"

========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:49:53 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Bulk Bees in Mating Nucs >Could any of the queen breeders out there suggest a fast and simple method of trasferring bulk bees into mating baby nucs without injury to the bees? I understand that most people simply spray the bees down with syrup so that they are easier to handle. Is there another way? > >Kevin Christensen > Hi Kevin; When standarded frames are used, brood and honey can be assembled from different colnies and stacked above a queen excluder on a few strong colnies. With in a short time all the comb will be covered with bees and can be placed over to the nucleus. Another way of accomplishing a similar result is to pile the hive bodies of brood on regulation bottom boards and add about 5 pounds of young bees from each hive body of comb, by brushing the bees onto the top box frames. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:50:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Varroa Resistant Stock >On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, David. E. Goble wrote: > >> >prefer this approach to roaming the globe in search of the perfect bee. >> >If a project like this is supported, we should soon have a population of >> >bees to work with that will be as good as those anywhere. >> > >> In response to these postings, >> >> You do not have to breed a resistant strain,All you need a clean >> hive and foundation, hatching brrod and a new queen from a Varroa free >> supplier and exclude all the older field bees from these hive , by placing >> it on a new isolated site, thi can be successful in at least 90% of any attempt. >> Mite infection can not be controlled by immuniological or toxicological >> genetic controll. > > I hope this an April fool prank and not realy advice. > Vince > Hi Vince; As a immuniologist and genetic associate Professor, I am extremely concern that a government department has the gall to seek funds to attempt to breed a mite resistance strain of a parasite, when we have the historical facts of the resistance in insects harmful to man. America, Britian Australia and Europe has attempted this facality in 1960, 70, and 80's, whenever governments have restricted departmental funds, with no success from these attempts. Acarapis mites, both dorsalis and externus have been in bee stocks for at least 30 years. So mite problems are not new. Dr B Goble PhD Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... >That is the question. Tis' nobler...etc., etc.... > >I've been catching queens, marking them AND clipping >wings for a few years now. Just wondering if clipping >wings is really an advantageous practice or not. I >know my *old* queens don't leave with the swarms. They >jus' kinda fly in circles. ;^) > >With marked queens, I never use a clipped wing as >identification. I know some people believe that it >somehow damages the queen and the other bees sense >this. But have any studies of this ever really been >accomplished? Is the supersedeure rate greater among >queens that have had their wings clipped? > >Also, from you BRITISH types out there: Can you tell >me what the 'normal procedure' of Buckfast Abbey is? >Do they normally clip wings or not? Does Brother Adam >have an opinion on rather one should or should not clip >wings? > >BusyKnight >Dallas, TX >busykngt@airmail.net >G.E. - We bring good things to life! >Also a leading producer of Thermonuclear >Bombs. Life, we make it glow in the dark. > Hi BusyKnight; Brother Adam was a bee researcher that was investigating the Italian strain of bees, near the end of his life the Buckfast bee strain was place in a number of location in the World to make available this strain. If you do not clip your wing of a marked queen your neibhour will get a mark queen when it abscombs with a swarm, remember that the old queen and the swarm leaves before the new queen hatches and swarning is a natural occurrence. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:54:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Overwintering mininucs In a message dated 96-04-06 09:41:00 EST, you write: >From: beesbuzz@EROLS.COM (Timothy Cote) >Hello there-- > >Recently there was an article in Bee Culture about raising Northern bees >using an alternative approach; overwintering mininucs with laying queens >directly above a more established colony. Because here in Maryland >beekeeping is, well, frankly pretty boring after our 6-8 week honey flow >(which is about to begin), I'm thinking about trying to raise a few queens >this summer/fall and overwintering them. > >The author of the Bee Culture article wrote, with literary swagger, that >perhaps the North will soon export packages and queens to the South. I >expect that much of this is puffery but wonder if anyone else has tried it >and met his claims of <30% loss (a real advantage, he says, as the natural >selection of winter culls the weaklings from superior stock). > >I'm attracted to the idea but skeptical--is anyone else? > I wish the author every success, but I am also skeptical. And I have worked both north and south. Some of the best beekeepers I know have had heavy losses in the north this year. (I'm curious what the author's were. I suspect he'll get caught too, if not this year, then another.) I feel certain that the southern connection will always be necessary for northern beekeepers. If you could see how many truckloads of bees run up the interstate for northeastern fruit.... A true pollinator has the bees built up FOR apples; he doesn't try to build them up ON apples. The north might be able to maintain honey production, with home raised queens, but I seriously doubt that spring fruit pollination would have the necessary bees. This year I'm sure a higher percentage of pollination bees will be southern, than ever. Most commercial beekeepers I know could not make it on honey alone, or on pollination alone. A true pollinator has the bees built up FOR apples; he doesn't try to build them up ON apples. You are somewhat in the middle, so I can't speak specifically to your situation. I overwinter some nucs most years. It's easiest to do with double screens over strong colonies. I've also done it by giving frames of honey whenever they get light. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 21:54:01 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Periodic Posting - Previous discussion archives, etc. Contents: 1.) Web access to BEE-L 2.) Email access to historical BEE-L discussions There are two ways now to read back issues of BEE-L. ~~~~~~~~ 1. ) BEE-l can presently be read on the Worldwide Web by pointing your brouser at http://www.internode.net:80/~allend/index.html. A list of pointers to other beekeeping sites is there as well. The National (USA) Honey Board Database is also there to brouse or download. The logs are actually now located on Sunsite courtesy Adam F. If you have web access, either by PPP and a graphical brouser or by lynx (a UNIX brouser available on many UNIX shell accounts by typing the command 'lynx'), this is the fast, simple way to go. 2.) For those with no web access, logs are also available quite conveniently by email from LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU To have a BEE-L log emailed to you: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just send a message with no subject (subject lines are ignored) to LISTSERV@uacsc2.albany.edu with the message GET BEE-L LOGMMYY Where MM is the month (ie. 05 for May) and YY is the year (ie. 96 for 1996). Additional logs requested can be added on up to four more lines in your message. Be aware of the spacing of the words (No space in LOG9605, for example). Leave out any other text -- such as .signatures. Additional text - other than lines with additional commands -- will trigger harmless error messages from the LISTSERV. The log will arrive some time later in your mailbox. Warning: logs can be as much 800 K in size! Please report any problems to the undersigned. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 22:13:33 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: N Z Bees Regarding Nick"s response March 29,1996. Yes I did make a mistake and I admit it. I got the years mixed up ,I was looking at figures from 92-93 and got ahead of myself . Per the N Z Bee home page mentioned earlier 1992-93 23kg. or about 50 lb. with ranges from 1988-89 17kg/hive ( 37.5lbs) to 1991 to 92 31 kg. /hive (68lbs) So O K , and averaging is best say the last 10 or 15 years. When did the N Z government get out of the inspecting and the supervising of the N Z bee industry ? Also please explain if I am correct in my understanding that the inspection of N Z honeybees is either done by volunteer bee keepers that Wannabee bee inspectors or by employees hired by the N Z beekeeping association. Lastly could you give the exact numbers of test and which test were conducted in 1995. Specifically mite free testing and certification. Mr. Wallingford speaks of his relative freedom from the pests and diseases of honey bees and I would like information presented to the group of exactly which pests/diseases of honey bees are known to be found with N Z honeybees. About Dr. D Anderson he works for CISRO what is CISRO and where do the funds come from for CISRO ? Was D Anderson the first one to find Kashmir in N Z bees ? Has any thought been given to the problems that occur when honeybees have mites and viruses at the same time ? Probably not since your bees are reported to be mite free so you might not care about the problems when bees have both mites and viruses. On the net several people have suggested that bee viruses be treated like Aids in people well I happen to believe that if we accept bee viruses as being like aids that we would all very quickly agree that until we find a cure that we should isolate the bees known to be infested with all the viruses known to the bee world away from the rest of the bee populations until the men of science can find the answers to the P M S headache problems with honeybees of the United States and Canada . If the Canadians are not afraid of the effects of the continued introduction and spread of pest/disease of honeybees then the border between Canada and the U S should be closed to stop the spread of pests/disease from Canada to U S bees . All of this points to the need for multi national research teams to assembled under the supervision of peer review groups with members from all areas of beekeeping keeping this much needed work on an objective mission. Honey bees are in trouble and man's food production is too dependent on honeybee as pollinators for the U S to sit quietly for help to come from Washington. Washington does not know that U S beekeepers have any problems because we do not have a true bee lover and patriot working for us in Beltsville. U S D A I know you are reading . Could some one share the pleadings for more research money to save honeybees that must have been generated at budget time ? Well thats it for this post which has gotten to long. Thinking only of honeybees PATTON IN PARADISE HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON SPRING HAS SPRUNG Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 22:47:25 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: honey testing To Bee- L overs Regarding multiple recent postings about the use of unapproved and experimental chemicals on U S and Canadian honeybees, the confusion about bee feed supplements , and the abuse of approved honeybee medications the question arises WHO is protecting the health of the U S consumer from contaminated honey? The U S in 1995 imported 40.2 thousands metric tons (88 million lb of honey from Argentina ,China and Canada to the tune of $47.1 million dollars at 1995 prices .The 1995 U S honey production was 210 million lb (down 3 percent) from 2.65 million colonies down from 1994 count of 2.77 million hives (120,000 hives lost and 110,000 hives lost the year before). The U S exported 9 million lb.in 1995. What are the testing standards of this imported honey ? What are the testing standards of U S honey ?Who regulates the health and safety of American citzens as they eat their honey daily ?Does the U S D A or the F D A ? Does anyone have some answers ? It seems that a multi national panel should be assembled under peer review to determine whats is and what is not approved regarding the use of chemicals with honeybees in the production of honey for human consumption and then testing must be implemented to insure compliance with the findings. Come on U S D A give us some answers . Honeybees need our help and we need honey eaters. aloha PATTON IN PARADISE Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:11:37 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: VISIT HAWAII Dear BEE-L Members If planning a visit to the Aloha state Hawaii be sure and include a few days on the BIG Island called Hawaii.Hawaii is a beekeeping honeymoon and all bee keepers should visit the Big Island home of the largest queenbee breeder in the United States and home of the most production of honey per hive in the U S .Hawaii bee keeping is going nearly all year long. All subscribers to BEE-L will be given serious discounts when staying with us on the Big island Hawaii. Bee keeper tours available.Thanks and visit Hawaii Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 19:54:14 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: G C Allison Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop In-Reply-To: <199604042232.XAA27143@typhoon.dial.pipex.net> Mark D Egloff asked how beekeepers on the list sell, distribute, or oth= erwise market their honey crops. Hi Mark, I am but a small scale hobbyist beekeeper [6 hives] but my best customer = is the largest chemical company in the UK! In order to demonstrate committment to the environment and to involve the= local communities, many of ICI's factories have made over peripheral land withi= n their boundaries as ecological study areas. A factory local to me has such an = area and to increase interest for local schools who visit the ecological reser= ve, I manage two hives on it; the factory is in a rural setting, processes no = agressive chemicals and is within a security fence. My colonies do extremely well and the company BUY! honey produced in them= to give to visiting VIPs who have an environmental interest to reinforce the= ir 'green credentials' - and very effective it is too; my honey has gone to Japan, = India, Israel, USA, Korea and many European countries too. I appreciate that this situation is not one that many beekeepers will be = able to repeat but the lesson for me is that niche markets can be profitable and = reliable, perhaps this may point a way for others. In this case the sale of my honey is very dependant on the perceived pur= ity of the product, mercifully Scotland is still Varroa free and I have run colo= nies for several years without needing to administer medication of any kind, I hop= e that I can continue for many more but recent threads on BEE L re treatments whic= h minimise the likelyhood of chemical contamination are of great interest = to me. Here in the UK we are witnessing in a forcible way, what happens when pub= lic trust is lost in a food product - with the banning of British beef in man= y countries because of the BSE/CJ disease scares. Geoff Allison Dalbeattie, Scotland Email geoff.allison@dial.pipex.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:56:04 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Swarms and Apistan Sid Pullinger asks why would I leave a swarm alone for a week before adding Apistan, or for that matter, doing anything else inside the hive.. My reasoning has to do with how a swarm sets up shop in a hive. First off, the bees must get established, or they may simply reject the home you give them and leave it, looking for another. Leaving the bees alone for a week lets them settle in and commit to their new home. Also, in my experience, bees rarely start their comb in the middle of the hive, or at any predictable location, for that matter. By waiting a week before adding an Apistan strip, you will get the bees to start building comb and commit to a location in the hive. Then it is a simple matter to put the Apistan strip where the most bees will rub against it; namely the active brood area. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:56:17 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Bee Candy Try bits of marshmallows, especially if the queen isn't going to stay in the queen cage very long. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:15:25 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ivan McGill Subject: Re: honey testing > To Bee- L overs > Regarding multiple recent postings about the use of unapproved and >experimental chemicals on U S and Canadian honeybees, the confusion about >bee feed supplements , and the abuse of approved honeybee medications the >question arises WHO is protecting the health of the U S consumer from >contaminated honey? > The U S in 1995 imported 40.2 thousands metric tons (88 million lb >of honey from Argentina ,China and Canada to the tune of $47.1 million >dollars at 1995 prices .The 1995 U S honey production was 210 million lb >(down 3 percent) from 2.65 million colonies down from 1994 count of 2.77 >million hives (120,000 hives lost and 110,000 hives lost the year before). >The U S exported 9 million lb.in 1995. > What are the testing standards of this imported honey ? What are the >testing standards of U S honey ?Who regulates the health and safety of >American citzens as they eat their honey daily ?Does the U S D A or the F D >A ? Does anyone have some answers ? > It seems that a multi national panel should be assembled under >peer review to determine whats is and what is not approved regarding the use >of chemicals with honeybees in the production of honey for human >consumption and then testing must be implemented to insure compliance with >the findings. > Come on U S D A give us some answers . > > Honeybees need our help and we need honey eaters. aloha >PATTON IN PARADISE > >Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 > Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii > >Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii > > http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm >http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm > http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm Walter: I am not an exporter of honey, but I do know that we in Canada have inspectors payed for by the government to check each load going out of Canada. No ticket no ship. Also each honey house that ships has to be a registered. The inspector I know does spot checks, he does not phone ahead. I don't know what other countries do but that is what happens here! Ivan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:56:18 +0200 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Creamed honey Hello Beekeepers, Now and then there is a question about creamed honey coming up on the list. We have in the commersial beekeeping organisation in Sweden, Ekobi, made a research project on the crystallization of honey. There is a short description of the result on my homepages. Have a look at http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ if you are interested. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:39:08 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: U S D A propaganda My friend Edward Langlieb Master Gardener , organic only , sends me a copy of a curious article from the very intellectual publication Acres U S A , March 1996 issue. Ed reads faithfully Acres from his West Hempstead , N.Y. home/garden. Mr. Langlieb currently gets his honey from W.Oterson of Long Island Honey. Article title "HONEYBEES MAKING A COMEBACK" (sounds too good already) I quote. Over the last several years, American honey bee colonies have been decimated by tiny parasitic mites, known as varroa and tracheal mites. First detected in 1990, the mites attack both immature and adult honeybees,in both domesticated and wild colonies. Growers of fruit and bee-pollinated legume crops were becoming desperate to obtain enough bees to pollinate their crops. Michigan State University apiculturist Roger Hoopangarner says that honeybee breeding research is making progress in breeding mite-resistant bees and that the use and management of miticides has improved, increasing the survival rate of bee colonies. "Last winter we had about a 15% winter loss of honeybees, and that is the lowest by far in the past six or seven years,when losses at times reached 70%, "he said. Hoopingarner said he is optimistic that research will soon allow mites to be controlled. It will take a few years, however, before the mite-resistant bee strains become dominant in the populations of wild and domestic bees. Sorry folks this sounds like propaganda from the U S D A to make the population at large feel appeased that all is well in U S bee hives. How far from the truth. No mention of medication abuse that might be making honey questionable. No mention of the famous headache problem of U S beekeepers called P M S (Parasitic mite syndrome) when mites and viruses are on the same bees. No call for more quick action needed to stop the downward spiraling numbers of U S beekeepers and U S bee hives. and the pending pollination crisis facing American farmers dependent on honeybees for pollination. I thought mites were found in U S bees in the 1980's . The U S beekeepers need accurate information to be given to the public and public support from awareness will be needed to get U S politicians to realize the U S honeybee crisis and to mandate that solutions be sought . Maybe a press release from the U S D A is needed to help us beekeepers become better prepared to tell our story and to enroll the support of the citizens of the United States of America. Of coarse a peer- review group would have to proof read their release for accuracy. We all know this will not happen as this is an election year and any suggestion of failure by the U S D A would be unheard of. Soo business as usual look the other way and maybe the problem will go away. Remember to find out how your local congressional people feel when casting your vote in November. A lover and keeper of the bees. Aloha Patton in Paradise Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:26:47 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... In-Reply-To: <199604070319.MAA22825@eastend.com.au> On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, David. E. Goble wrote: > Brother Adam was a bee researcher that was investigating the > Italian strain of bees, near the end of his life the Buckfast > bee strain was place in a number of location in the World to > make available this strain. Steady on with the past tense David, Bro. Adam was retired (at 93?) by the Abbot of Buckfast, so he now does much less work than he used to. But I'm pretty sure he's still around! I met him about 3 years ago and I'm sure I'd have heard if he wasn't. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:24:15 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: another question In-Reply-To: <199604051903.LAA06394@phoenix.svri.com> On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, John Day wrote: > as a follow up to my previous question about gray cells, > is it harmful to leave fermenting honey in combs for the > next colony? I understand that it gives them dysentry and should therefore be avoided. > or are they just gonna party all night? Maybe ;-) Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:24:45 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: N Z Bees Mr Patton's original argument appeared to be that the presence of bee pests/diseases on NZ bees accounted for the low production that he attributed to NZ. I am pleased that charge has now been withdrawn! Though there appears to be some confusion in referring to NZ's AFB inspection systems, I believe Mr Patton's real interests now relate to surveillance and certification systems for export of live bees. Again, I am happy to supply the facts, as NZ tries to play 'above board' in the issues of fair market access and trade. NZ uses both active and passive surveillance systems. That is, each year samples are taken from bees considered to be 'high risk' (near airports and ports, for instance) for the active. Passive surveillance is the testing of random samples with no attempt to target. It really comes down to numbers at that stage - the number of samples must be sufficient to provide a given degree of confidence of absence of each particular pest/disease. And no, short of killing and testing each bee in the country, there is no way to assure with 'absolute confidence' - but the confidence level is a numerical exercise, and should be open to scrutiny. Certification for export is a government to government matter. In our case, NZ's MAF Regulatory Authority negotiates protocols with the government of the country to which we want to export. The importing country calls the shots, for the most part, but must play 'fair', with technically sound sanitary and phytosanitary arguments for the inclusion of each item on the permit. The number and type of tests required are determined for the most part by the statements on the permit for the country to which the bees are being sent. In our case, the MAF RA simply will not sign a permit unless it has the requisite degree of confidence. Does Hawaii have Kashmir bee virus or mites? No one *really* knows, as no one has ever systematically looked. With the small geographic size and relatively small number of hives involved, a survey to determine pest/disease status for Hawaii would be a simple thing to undertake. Until the Hawaiian beekeepers are willing to do that there can be no *confidence* in the claims of area freedom. Hawaii is not willing to take 'the test', but wants the world to believe that it is 'clean'. Again, the confidence is a statistically based thing, not just individual reports of 'nothing found' - the methodology must stand scrutiny! Dr Denis Anderson works for CSIRO - I think that stands for Commonwealth Scientific and Industial Research Organisation. I don't know where CSIRO's funds come from; I wanted only to correct Mr Patton's belief that Dr Anderson was being paid by the NZ beekeepers to say what we want him to say. I do not expect to convince Mr Patton to change his mind about free trade in general or the pest/disease status of NZ bees in particular. When there are errors of fact or fairness at issue, I will be happy to contribute to ensure NZ bees get a fair deal! Nick Wallingford President - Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ (\ home nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz (/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:42:01 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug McCulloch Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop Kirk When you talk better than 1.00/lb., would that be Can. or U.S. $. Sometimes its difficult to tell from the address what part of the world a message is comming from. Thanks. Doug McCulloch >> Gentlepeople: >> >> Although this may not necessarily be a "scientific" question or a >> question about the biology/behavior or management of bees, I think >> some discussion regarding marketing would be a good thing to open on >> the list. >> Any comments...? >> >> Mark Egloff >> MEGLOFF@CSC.COM > >Mark, > >Giving the fact that the proceeds from marketing our honey provide us with >the funds to continue beekeeping, I am interested in the very volatile >market we are selling in. > >We are very happy the bulk honey market has gone up, and I think it's way >overdue. If the prices offered by packers would have remained flat, we >would be in a major pinch restocking our hives this spring. In a previous >posting I mentioned the large amount of blowouts we had this winter, about >40%. If it wasn't for the better pricing........... > >We just got offered .95 a lb. and I have reports of better that a >$1.00/lb.paid on loads. Just three weeks ago we sold a load at .85/lb. > >Our biggest problem is trying to get the price up in the supermarkets. If >we priced our honey in the stores based on .95/lb. honey, we would be far >above the rest of the pack. It's tempting to sell off all our stocks at the >wholesale rate and quit packing. I have found that packing honey is not >very profitable. > >What effects are the increasing honey prices going to have on consumer and >industrial users? It would be good to see some stability. > >Kirk > >Sleeping Bear Apiaries >Kirk Jones >b-man@aliens.com > >when you get lemons, make lemonade.... > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:39:36 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Re: N Z Bees Does N Z Bees mean Northern Zanzebar or what? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:25:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Overwintering mininucs In-Reply-To: <199604061438.JAA23080@smtp1.erols.com> On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Timothy Cote wrote: > Hello there-- > > Recently there was an article in Bee Culture about raising Northern bees > using an alternative approach; overwintering mininucs with laying queens > directly above a more established colony. > and met his claims of <30% loss (a real advantage, he says, as the natural > selection of winter culls the weaklings from superior stock). > > I'm attracted to the idea but skeptical--is anyone else? > Wintering nucs is not easy but can been done. I know of at least one beekeeper in Ontario that winters two nucs over a single broodnest colony. He reports losses of only a few percent. Wintering nucs can be great advantage to the northern beekeeper. Late summer queens can be stored, a supply of nucs can help offset winter loss, and diseases can be controled more efficiently. I'll report to the list later on my success or failure with wintering nucs this winter. I don't belive that 30% loss is neccesary or desirable. If it was due to genetic variability there is probably a problem with the breeding program. Anyone out there with experience wintering nucs? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:29:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Colony loss in California almonds I heard thru the grapvine that there were quite a few colonies dying in the almond orchards. Does anyone know if this is true and what the cause is ? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: installing packages We are wondering if we can put the caged queen between two frames and just set the opened pakage over the inner cover hole and let the bees go down into the hive on their own. It seems they would be likly to stay if they entered on their own. Has anyone had any succuess with this method? Problems? This is the first year in 26 years of beekeeping that we have had to buy packages. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:16:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: U S D A propaganda Walter Patton posted: > Michigan State University apiculturist Roger Hoopangarner says that >honeybee breeding >research is making progress in breeding mite-resistant bees and that the use >and management of >miticides has improved, increasing the survival rate of bee colonies. > "Last winter we had about a 15% winter loss of honeybees, and that is >the lowest by far in >the past six or seven years,when losses at times reached 70%, "he said. I have met with Roger"Hoopy" Hoopengarner at the spring Michigan Beekeepers Meeting and we talked a bit about the work he doing with bee breeding. The big talk at the meeting was the huge winterkill we had in Michigan. >Hoopingarner said he is >optimistic that research will soon allow mites to be controlled. It will >take a few years, however, >before the mite-resistant bee strains become dominant in the populations of >wild and domestic >bees. > Hoopy did say that he believes we will be able to develop mite resistant strains, BUT it will take some time. Sounds realistic to me. Unfortunately, he is being pushed to retire, and I hope he can still stay active with his work independently. Sorry folks this sounds like propaganda from the U S D A to make >the population at large >feel appeased that all is well in U S bee hives. How far from the truth. No >mention of medication >abuse that might be making honey questionable. No mention of the famous >headache problem of >U S beekeepers called P M S (Parasitic mite syndrome) when mites and viruses >are on the same >bees. No call for more quick action needed to stop the downward spiraling >numbers of U S >beekeepers and U S bee hives. and the pending pollination crisis facing >American farmers >dependent on honeybees for pollination. I thought mites were found in U S >bees in the 1980's . > I found "Hoopy" to be very tuned in to our plight as beekeepers and I can't figure out how someone got misinformed. We need more people like him to help us. He also has been VERY helpful in public relations. The U S beekeepers need accurate information to be given to the >public and public >support from awareness will be needed to get U S politicians to realize the >U S honeybee crisis >and to mandate that solutions be sought . Maybe a press release from the U S >D A is needed to >help us beekeepers become better prepared to tell our story and to enroll >the support of the >citizens of the United States of America. Of coarse a peer- review group >would have to proof >read their release for accuracy. We all know this will not happen as this is >an election year and >any suggestion of failure by the U S D A would be unheard of. Soo business >as usual look the >other way and maybe the problem will go away. Remember to find out how your >local >congressional people feel when casting your vote in November. > A lover and keeper of the bees. Aloha Patton in Paradise I may be mistaken, but are you suggesting that Hoopingarner is with the USDA? >Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 > Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Sleeping Bear Apiaries Kirk Jones b-man@aliens.com when you get lemons, make lemonade.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:04:55 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: (Fwd) Re: installing packages > We are wondering if we can put the caged queen between two > frames and just set > the opened package over the inner cover hole and let the bees go > down into the hive on their own. It seems they would be likly to > stay if they entered on their own. Has anyone had any succuess with > this method? Problems? Well, Vince, you can probably do it, but the best -- most foolproof -- method we have found, (and I must have installed 10,000 packages by now), is to simply wait until bee flight diminishes if it is a warm day (or if it is cooler anytime will do), remove the centre three or so frames and dump the bees in. The queen should be released by tearing off the screen and added somewhere in the middle of the mass. A lot depends on how many you will install. A hundred or so will take an hour for two people, but a thousand will take 'til midnight and require more help. If you have only a few, then wait until dusk. Otherwise, start work as soon as you can. If it is possible, we like the bees cool and well fed, but not chilled or sticky, so they aren't running. The queen may fly if she is warm and light, and may have to be doused with water or syrup while still in the cage, but most good beekeepers can just release her inside the hive where she will go to a frame on which the bees are running up. At night, flying up is less likely. As soon as the bees run up the frames, the three frames can be replaced and a lid goes on. A helper does that. Care must be taken not to bruise bees. A variation of the technique is to just dump the bees on top of a full box of frames and put a sack over the mass. After they go down, the lid goes on -- sack and all. Weather is a big factor. If you are lucky, your bees will arrive when the next day will be cool. This helps get the bees settled. A hot day can result in considerable drifting and loss. Many northern beekeepers install packages while snow is on the ground with good results. Some install in a totally lightproof warehouse using bug lites, and move them out after a few days. Hope this helps. Other techniques can result in complications. These methods get everything where it should be and there is no need to return for 4 days or so, at which time medication and queen checks can begin. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:42:35 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Acetic Acid In-Reply-To: <199604042048.PAA02933@segwun.muskoka.net> On Thu, 4 Apr 1996, David Eyre wrote: > >i understand that laws need to be applied to protect the consumer from > >contamination, but aren't we hobbyist bee keepers the ones who usually > >find the answer to difficult problems thru observation and experimentation? > > > >my purpose of this email is not to complain about the laws, but to > >encourage others to continue to disseminate information about what they > >have found to work so that others can use and modify until we finally > >have a solution to the mite problem. > > Right On!! But even when we have proven methods that really work, the > attitude seems to be, ignore it. In particular I refer to the Formic Acid > furore just recently. Here in Ontario extensive work has been done on Formic > Acid against mites, both on the delivery, and the effectiveness, it works! > Add to this the work done on T-mite resistant Queens, and our breeding program. > Why then do a number of our Southern cousins either reject the > findings, or worse still want to start back at square one? Why can't we > accept findings, especially from respected members of our fraternity, and go > on from there? What a complete and utter waste of time, no wonder it takes > us so long to get things moving!! The Europeans have had T-mite and Varroa > far longer, and seem to have a good handle on preventative methods of > control, why not use that information and where possible expand on it? > My appeal, lets quit the in-fighting and work together for the > common good, T-mite and Varroa are no respectors of inter-national > boundaries. > Hi David and all, We may have a gene fix for T-mite but we have a chemical fix for Varroa.There has been a lot of good work done on formic acid. There is a division with the experts on how really safe it is for everyone to use. I know that some people are using amatraz and have been for some time now and don't have a mite problem.I would wish that they would not use it , because it is not legal in the US.Formic acid has been used by many with mixed results.The delivery method seems to be a problem. The bottem line is , bees that do not need chemicals for survival. I have a very good market for my mountain honey.My net this years was $ 3.16 per pound US.I only did a little over 2 ton and sold it in two months. The people wanted the purest honey , no heat ,no filtering and from a very clean enviornment.I don't want to put anything in the hive that could get to the honey.This makes it real tough now , because you have to treat for Varroa or you wont have bees. I feel that we will have a bee that can take on Varroa and win , without chemicals. There is proof out there that bees can defend themselves against Varroa. Wallners stock in Austria is one.When we get in motion here in the US with the USDA , that will be one very positive step.We have beekeepers already screening there bees to get some that can handle Varroa.We have researchers working on varroa , so we can know more about the mite and what makes run.We do need a natural way to over come the mite.Everyone has there own opinion on how to over come the mite.I have learned a lot on the subject in the last few months.I just came back from California last night with a load of packages to make up my Varroa loss last fall.I talked to the breeder down there and they said that they had almost no loses for 95.They used apistan.I hope that all the beekeepers get the word to treat with the legal chemical and don't go trying out something that will backfire on all of us , like the red apples from Washington. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:48:58 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cammie Hughes Subject: Re: Colony loss in California almonds > I heard thru the grapvine that there were quite a few colonies >dying in the almond orchards. Does anyone know if this is true and what >the cause is ? > One of the reasons for the bad time in the almonds this year was the weather. It rained almost the whole time the almonds were in bloom and the bees were not able to fly. Cammie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 07:13:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: gray cells question I have often used honey-filled brood frames from winter/mite kills when assembling nuclei or hives for package bees. It's common for some of these combs to show signs of fermentation ("weeping" through cappings, for instance). I'm not certain how the bees deal with this old honey, that which has fermented and the large amout that is always granulated, but they do work at it and clean it up nicely. I've not noticed any adverse affects from using such combs as food supply for new colonies. At the same time I always supply antibiotic (patties) against foulbrood, and occasionally also sugar syrup with fumagillin. I suppose it would really be ideal to give some fumagillin/syrup whenever feeding this old honey. Another thing I've encountered alot is that these old CAPPED combs of honey often have a gray or purplish color to them. My guess is that the honey has absorbed moisture and is in contact with the cap of each cell, and the cappings also have a thin film of "bloom" over them. This gives the cappings a dull, dusty appearance much the same as will appear on a cake of rendered beeswax over time. It presents no problems anyway. I'm wondering what the "bloom" on wax actually is. On candles or cakes it rubs off easily, but do any readers know what causes it?? Thanks, Joel Freeville, NY (15 degrees F this morning!) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 07:33:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: installing packages HI Vince- The installation method you mentioned sounds fine to me. Personally, I prefer setting the package in the hive next to 5 frames and setting the queen cage right there on top of the package where the bees are exiting (adjacent to feeder-can hole). No dumping, squashing, or en masse-disoriented flight. The bees naturally go "up" to exit and so come in contact with q cage right away to keep her warm. If you do invert the cage over the inner cover, I'd make sure the q cage is right near where they will be coming down into the hive. Probably between 2 frames right under the inner cover hole, candy end up. You'll have to devise a way to make sure the q cage doesn't fall down in between the frames as you reassemble the hive and plunk on the package proper. (It might be tricky to invert the package over the inner cover hole without dumping some bees which will get mashed and not be able to make it down thru the hole as the package will cover it.) I've never trusted direct release of queen, just seems risky, but I do make a good nail hole thru candy in cage unless alot of the candy is already gone. Let me know how your method works out... and if you try direct queen release. I hope the new bees get you a bumper crop their first season. Joel P.S. You probably are already planning this, but 2-4 weeks after installation give each package colony a frame or two of sealed brood with bees from your established hives (which by then could use some "pruning" against swarming anyway). It will really give the new ones a great boost, and help them over the population crash that occurs before the new queens' youngsters start emerging. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:03:04 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ivo Jakop Subject: packet bees packet bees >From the recent letters I understood that packetbees are supplied by Australian and New Zealand beekeepers. Does somebody knows the e-mail addresses of the suppliers? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:04:32 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Moving frames of brood between sites Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Gentlepeople: I am getting ready to do splits and install packages here in Dayton, Ohio, USA. One question which popped into my head resulted from a passing comment on the List and dealt with moving brood from strong overwintered hives into installed packages later on in the season. I will be setting up packages in a new outapiary about 5 miles from my main site. Can I (I figure I probably can) move frames of brood over the distance from one site to the other? If I can, how should I do it to prevent chilling of the brood? Any tips on how this is done would be appreciated. Should I run the heater in my pickup until I am "toasting" before I pull the brood, then drive like mad, or is there a saner method? Yours; Mark. MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 07:15:00 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: installing packages > Personally, I prefer setting the package in the hive next to 5 > frames and setting the queen cage right there on top of the package > where the bees are exiting (adjacent to feeder-can hole). No > dumping, squashing, or en masse-disoriented flight. The bees > naturally go "up" to exit and so come in contact with q cage right > away to keep her warm. WARNING: Although this may well often work for an experienced beekeeper in the right climate, at the right time, it will not work all the time. I have heard *many* varied tales of woe from those who have tried this method. And, it is a serious problem where the weather is cool or unsettled. When people do this they often go back to find the bees still in the cage, building comb in the empty space, or that the queen has been abandoned and died. If one has only a few packages to install, and plans to go back and check soon, this type of method may be okay. But, if you have hundreds and don't want to go back until after four days -- and don't want to lose your investment, there is no substitute for direct installation -- namely dump them in, release the queen, put the frame back in, close the lid and go away. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:42:45 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gunnar Soederlund Subject: Re: Bee-autiful Screen Saver :) >|< Hi Jean, My name is Gunnar Soderlund. I am very happy that you did send that screen saver. But I couldn=E4t use it, it did not reach me right. So if you could send it again I would be realy glad. Gymper P.S. I think I have sent this mesage erlier, but I had some computer trubble so I want to be sure. You wrote: >Dear Friends of Apis Mellifera >|<, > >Attached is a Windows 3.1 screen saver file called SWARM.SCR. Let me know= if >it doesn't transfer correctly. (Apis Mellifera is Latin for honey bee) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:35:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: honey testingTo Bee- L oversRegarding multiple recent postings about t e use of unapproved and WP>From: Walter Patton >Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 22:47:25 -1000 >Subject: honey testing WP>Regarding multiple recent postings about the use of unapproved and >experimental chemicals on U S and Canadian honeybees, the confusion about >bee feed supplements , and the abuse of approved honeybee medications the >question arises WHO is protecting the health of the U S consumer from >contaminated honey? Hi Walter, Yes, it is bad but beekeepers who live in glass hives should not throw stones. The USA and the USDA try as hard as they can with the resources we allow them to set the high standards for Honey Inspection as we know it, but not based on a police state mentality as some food fanatics would have it, or have it such as in Great Britannic now going through the Mad Cow disaster because some old information was misinterpreted by the press, public, and politicians. We should be buying up all that beef in GB and open a Mad Cow Hamburger Heaven in the US and clean up, we could kill two birds with one stone, help save the GB cattle industry and provide cheep beef to the American's who are starving for another fast food palace. We would have to buy a lot of fat, I got a friend who owns a tallow works, because that stringy grass fed beef in GB makes poor hamburger. But of course we can't because of laws, the same as they can't buy our beef because of their laws. And we send our tallow to Europe because we would not think of using it here, and there are laws, who knows what killed the cows it's from, anyway it can find its way back in find imported cookies, you know the kind that melts in your mouth at Christmas time. The quality and safety of US honey begins at the beeyard and it is true that a few American beekeepers do use methods and chemicals not approved by the US government. These producers risk it for themselves's and the industry as a whole. Many more have tried chemicals like amitraz to control v. mites, in fact just about any of the common farm chemicals will indeed give some v. mite control if used carefully. And many are in use in other countries where they may or may not be legal. >From the beeyard most of the honey produced commercially moves into the honey packing industry pipeline. Again some test and some don't, the one's that do such as SUE BEE, (a US beekeeper cooperative), have rejected honey that does not pass the standards set by the US government or other governments if they are selling honey for export. I can tell you from personal experience that having a load or a crop rejected is a good way to change how things are done back in the beeyard. Some honey packers have harder standards then what the law calls for. The FDA level for EDB and mandatory notification to FDA was/is 30ppb, at the same time SUE BEE was rejecting honey with 10ppb and testing 16 lots per day. I believe they have "0"ppb, but don't quote me on that. For SUGAR Syrup Adulteration SUE BEE is testing 10 samples every two days, as it takes two days to run the samples and then suspicious samples are sent to a private lab for testing. Amitraz found in SUE BEE members honey at levels over 200ppb, (may be 0 today as I have not checked in awhile), are rejected, 16 samples are tested at one time and it takes 3 days to complete the tests. Any material of any kind that could be considered contamination is the responsibility of the member who shipped it to the co-op and he is responsible for reimbursing the co-op for all damages caused by that contamination. All honey delivered to SUE BEE is tested on a random basis, with the exception of any producer with a history of contamination. A few other honey packers have similar labs and testing policies, or send honey out to be tested. Most of the smaller packers do not have labs but do send out suspicious samples to be tested for adulteration. You can be sure with a dollar a pound market more honey will be tested in 1996 then ever before as packers know all beekeepers are crooks, the same as any beekeeper would tell you that the honey packers are a bunch of thief's and for sure some do have a history of being real cheep at the least. > What are the testing standards of this imported honey ? What are the >testing standards of U S honey ?Who regulates the health and safety of >American citzens as they eat their honey daily ?Does the U S D A or the F D The standards are the same for honey imported into the US as they are for the honey produced here. The USDA can sample the honey at the port, but this is not the norm. Most adulteration and contamination is reported to them by beekeepers, consumers, or packers. Honey rejected at the ports is not normally destroyed so it does find it's way into the food chain at a lower price mostly. The USDA also has a market basket study that looks at a few samples of honey each year. Occasional studies over the years also look at honey. ? Does anyone have some answers ? NO one has the answers, it's buyer beeware the same as it is for much of our food. Honey is in a class by itself because honey represents the environment the bees were kept in for miles around the bee yard, that of the beekeepers honey house and the packers bottling line. With the tests we have today that can split the hairs on a bee's rear end and tell you who the father was you can imagine that anything that is considered bad in the environment can be found at some level in honey and that includes the honey from the highest mountains in Hawaii which was tested with other honey's from the North America and found to have some of the same containments. We are lucky that much of what goes into honey is lost by time and processing and what is left and found in honey is no different that what is found in the air we breath or any other food. If having chlorinated hydrocarbons or other chemicals in honey at .001ppt is a worry then we should be worried about the air and water from just about any place in the world. > It seems that a multi national panel should be assembled under >peer review to determine whats is and what is not approved regarding the use >of chemicals with honeybees in the production of honey for human >consumption and then testing must be implemented to insure compliance with >the findings. > Come on U S D A give us some answers . You must have missed the USDA answers on prior bee problems. On bee's lost in the US from Varroa Mites it's B-PMS. Before varroa mites it was the acarine mite, before acarine it was something else. They are on top of it just ask them or go to one of their canned talks put on to entertain the beekeepers at bee meeting. Now after years of quarantines, bee killing's, and forced chemical use to control varroa mites using the one and only chemical they happened to approve they are looking for bees that have never been treated, I had some but they died. Actually I had 500 hives never treated with anything but they were stolen, the same thing as dead as I bet if they have been treated are all dead by now. Yes, we could work hard all our lives, save all our money and spend it all to make Pure Honey the standard for all other foods to follow, but I fear in the end we would be in the same place as the Cattle Industry in Great Britain, at the end of a long "green" rope. As for peer review, we are all peer's here in the US, and I can tell you that our peer's are reviewing some of the natural food additives, a few mentioned here and in other places on a scale that exceeds anything that all the government agencies of the world could do in several decade's. That may seem horrible to someone who has never had a sick hive or watched hundreds of them die and could do nothing but watch, but that's the American Way and I hope it never changes. When my peers find something that looks real good you can bet I will let you know if they don't first and the USDA too, and then we can do some real bee research. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. If you leave my name off I won't know the difference and think you are really smart if I run into it some day. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... To sway its silent chimes, else must the bee, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:24:43 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MS KIM H MILLER Subject: Re: Bee-autiful Screen Saver :) I didn't see the posting regarding this screensaver. Could the originating poster please e-mail me the details. Thank you. Kim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:51:23 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: Bee Candy just saw this one on the list from collin forbes: On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, James D. Satterfield wrote: > Caramel: a block of caramel that is wrapped in cellophane. I remember reading that carmelized sugar will give bees dysentary. (I'm not a beekeeper, just an interested reader) .signature

Collin Forbes


"Friends Don't Let Friends Abuse HTML"

please note: carmelized sugar is blackened by heat. it is sugar that is deliberately burned to produce a different flavor. it is not the same as car-a-melized sugar candy. john ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:23:18 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Mad Cows (so off topic, please forgive) In-Reply-To: <960408065210365@beenet.com> On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Andy Nachbaur wrote: > Yes, we could work hard all our lives, save all our money and > spend it all to make Pure Honey the standard for all other foods to > follow, but I fear in the end we would be in the same place as the > Cattle Industry in Great Britain, at the end of a long "green" rope. Hi all, A clarification here -- I'm not sure how this affair has been reported elsewhere. No-one yet knows the real truth for sure, it may be years before we do. Cattle farmers in the UK were feeding *approved* concentrated feeds to their livestock, typically in ignorance of the actual ingredients. They bought their feed in good faith, unaware that they were feeding processed sheep offal. Many are rightly horrified at what is seen as an offence to nature. For some, their cattle are sick too. For all, the value of their cattle has plummeted. Most are innocent of any malpractice. All are victims of intensive farming practices, the real or imagined consequences and the resulting hysteria. Take care. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Moving frames of brood between sites Can I (I figure I probably can) move frames of brood over > the distance from one site to the other? If I can, how should I do it > to prevent chilling of the brood? Any tips on how this is done would > be appreciated. > > Should I run the heater in my pickup until I am "toasting" before I > pull the brood, then drive like mad, or is there a saner method? Mark, you can set up a few empty hive bodies with floors stapled on and screened. Then when you pull brood frames put them in these hive bodies, 9 at a time, with adhering bees. Only remove the lid when adding another frame of brood, to help keep most of the bees in. Then move these holding-boxes to the new site and take them apart again, adding brood to the new package colonies. It doesn't matter if the bees are mixed up from several hives. Or, fill nuc boxes with the brood frames and move them like that (lighter to carry). I haven't had trouble with robbing or fighting this way. Just don't accidentally pull one of your queens with the brood and bees being transferred & watch out for robbers. I would just put the hives in the back of the pickup unless it's really cold, in which case you probably wouldn't be carrying out the operation anyway. If it's normally cool they'll generate enough heat clustering. If you're taking brood without bees you might want to use the warm cab. I have put a couple of brood & bee-filled nuc boxes on the seat next to me a number of times. (They love going for a ride.) Five miles will be good and quick. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:19:31 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Overwintering mininucs In-Reply-To: On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Vince Coppola wrote: > Anyone out there with experience wintering nucs? Margriet Wyborn, a PhD in our lab, did some work on the mass storing of queens in various setups for overwintering back in 1989-90. She wrote an article with Mark Winston and Phil Laflamme in the March 1993 American Bee Journal summerizing their results (the article is titled 'Storing mated queens during the winter in managed honey bee colonies'. She tested a number of set-ups, most notably; 1) single, free-running queens wintered in 5-frame nucs placed side by side and back to back to form an insulated condominium of 10-20 colonies, 2) colony queen banks with 24 or 48 queens banked in overwintering queenless colonies, and 3) same as 2 (but only 24 queens banked) but banked queens transfered to mini-nucs (stacked above a queenright support colony) in January. They found that set-up 1 yielded the least queen mortality (between 0-10%), followed by the mini-nuc arrangement (@25%), and the queen banks (>30%). Statistically set-up 1 was not significantly different than the mini-nuc set-up, but was significantly better than banking. The mini-nuc set-up, however, was not significantly better than banking. They conducted an economic analysis of the different set-ups they tested and concluded that the mini-nuc system, although as successful at overwintering queens as 5-frame nucs, was not economically feasable because it requires special equipment and extra labour costs in January. Taking into account the level of queen survival, the number of queens banked, and labour costs, they calculated that banking 48 caged queens in strong colonies was the best arrangement and would give a beekeeper about $13,000 Canadian profit for selling queens for every 100 colonies used as storage. There is more in the article, and you should dig it up if your interested. We have a mild climate here in Vancouver, but we commonly bank our queens using the 48-queen bank set-up described in the article, with good success. Cheers, Adony **************************************** *** Adony Melathopoulos **************** ***** Center for Pest Management ******* ******** Simon Fraser University ******* *********** Burnaby, British Coumbia *** ************** CANADA ****************** **************************************** 'All bees are looking for bargains in nature's supermarket' - Bernd Heinrich e-mail : melathop@sfu.ca tel : (604) 29 14 16 3 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:40:08 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Moving frames of brood between sites Comments: To: "Mark D. Egloff" In-Reply-To: <9603088289.AA828979517@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > I will be setting up packages in a new outapiary about 5 miles from my > main site. Can I (I figure I probably can) move frames of brood over > the distance from one site to the other? If I can, how should I do it > to prevent chilling of the brood? Any tips on how this is done would > be appreciated. I think its best to move frames of sealed brood that is begin to emrge. I have no hard facts, but I figure they're least vulnerable at this stage, and they will be adopted fine by the host colony when they come out. I haven't kept track of the success of these emerging bees tho. > Should I run the heater in my pickup until I am "toasting" before I > pull the brood, then drive like mad, or is there a saner method? I think the heater is a good idea, but I don't think you are in any huge rush, especially when your only going 5 miles. I find cardboard nuc boxes helpful for keeping the frames in place as I drive. Queen cells seem to do okay for a couple of hours with a hot water bottle close at hand, so I think you are safe to drive the speed limit. Cheers, Adony **************************************** *** Adony Melathopoulos **************** ***** Center for Pest Management ******* ******** Simon Fraser University ******* *********** Burnaby, British Coumbia *** ************** CANADA ****************** **************************************** 'All bees are looking for bargins in nature's supermarket' - Bernd Heinrich e-mail : melathop@sfu.ca tel : (604) 29 14 16 3 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:52:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kim Flottum Subject: Re: Hive covers HI, An excellent article on this very subject appeared in a recent issue of Bee Culture magazine. I would be happy to send you a copy, if you could send me your snail mail address. Kim Flottum Editor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:46:21 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US Subject: Re: Too Many Eggs If the only sign is multiple eggs and sporadic laying pattern, it may just be a sign of a new young queen. I have seen that in a queen that turned out to be doing just fine a week later. With laying workers the eggs will be on the side of the cell rather than on the bottom. And you will usually have more than just two or three, at least in my experience. I'd be interested in what you find out. Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:59:57 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: packet bees -Reply There are currently three exporters of package bees in NZ. To the best of my knowledge none of these businesses are on the Internet. Your next best bet would be to communicate via fax. The following are the names/fax numbers for NZ package bee suppliers: Arataki Honey Ltd. (64) 7 366 6999 Haines Bee Breeders (64) 9 408-200 Kintail Honey (64) 6 855-8038 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:07:36 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: CORDOVAN Does anyone have any information about cordovan bees? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:51:56 PDT Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: Brother Adam... ---------------Original Message--------------- On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, David. E. Goble wrote: > Brother Adam was a bee researcher that was investigating the > Italian strain of bees, near the end of his life the Buckfast > bee strain was place in a number of location in the World to > make available this strain. Steady on with the past tense David, Bro. Adam was retired (at 93?) by the Abbot of Buckfast, so he now does much less work than he used to. But I'm pretty sure he's still around! I met him about 3 years ago and I'm sure I'd have heard if he wasn't. Regards, -- Gordon Scott To Gordon Scott and other Bee-liners Brother Adam is now retired. He is very frail but quite alert. He has no say or control over Buckfast beekeeping but is quietly taking a well deserved rest in a Nursing Home just down the road. The Abbey beekeeping is managed by Peter Donovan, who is not a monk but has worked the bees at Buckfast for about 40 years himself as Brother Adam's Apiary manager. Peter has asked a few local beekeepers, myself included, to help out with some routine management this season. Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:54:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... >Two cents more: > ...... > >Clipping does have the advantage of helping you to determine whether a >queen has died (or left) and been replaced. I'm not sure about the pro's >and con's, supersedure-wise (i know some of the animal rights crowd have >even expressed disdain for the practice of clipping!) but I'm quite sure I >am too clumsy to make a regular practice of it without queen injury. So >it's never become part of management for me. Additional info on this topic >would be interesting. Anyone? > Hi Joel; In addition to our other information regarding clipping, in a commercial operation the advantage of clipping each queen is that your production levels of honey is maintained, this means that by placing a clipped queen in each hive each year or each second year, a production hive of 100,000 to 150,000 bees each hive, will return at least 150 lbs to 300 lbs of honey each hive in most years. A clipped queen in a 1000 to 2000 hive operation in Australia saves much anguish and allows you to enjoy your beekeeping as you attempt to make money. As most operations of this size are a migratory system, and follow the honey flow through a number of States, over many miles each move. Using mobile extraction plants. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:55:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... A clipped queen in a 1000 to 2000 hive operation in Australia saves >much anguish and allows you to enjoy your beekeeping as you attempt to make >money. As most operations of this size are a migratory system, and follow >the honey flow through a number of States, over many miles each move. Using >mobile extraction plants. >Thanks from : > goble@eastend.com.au > http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble > degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) > American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia Thanks David. Wow - what I still can't fathom is how much work it would be to go through a couple thousand hives and find the queens to clip them. You must figure that it's cost-efficient, as you are running commercial. But - Don't you find that you lose swarms anyway, with virgins, leaving colonies weakened for the honey flow? Maybe I'm missing the point - I was under the impression that even if the swarm returns to the parent because the queen can't fly, they will abscond as soon as a new queen emerges from a swarm cell. Have you had this happen? and will the clipped queen remain in the hive and begin laying again after a swarm emerges? BTW just read "Queens-Land" about queen production in Australia which was very interesting. Thanks for any info. Joel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Coatings for Galvanized Honey Tanks? Soon I'll be refurbishing an old Root 45-frame extractor. Hand power. (just kidding). It's in great shape BUT galvanized, of course, and so are a couple of honey tanks of similar vintage. I've tried "Camcote" coating on a galvanized tank before, but it cracked into tiny fragments which got into my honey. Can anyone recommend a type of enamel or other coating which is food-safe and which will prevent honey from reacting with these galvanized surfaces?? I hope to have the beast in operation this summer. Or maybe I could use it as a planter out on the lawn. Thanks in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:16:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garrett Dodds Subject: Re: CORDOVAN >Does anyone have any information about Cordovan bees? Joe, A Cordovan bee is a bee with a gene mutation named "Cordovan" (cd). This is a recessive gene that won't let the express any black body color including the legs and antenna. Since it is recessive the bee has to receive two copies of the cd gene one from the queen bee (its mother), and one from the drone bee (its father). The color of a bee that is homozygous for the cd gene (having two copies of the gene) is a light reddish color in Italians (pretty) and a deep dark purple in carniolans (very pretty). The cd gene has been used by many queen breeders as a marker, including the Starlines, so it can be found in many different stocks. Koehnens have a lot of the cd gene mixed into their Italian bees and I have carniolans with the cd genes. You should try some cd bees the nice to look at, and make a great conversation piece with other beekeepers. Garrett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:57:55 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ttownsend@IBM.NET Subject: Great Day-report from Alberta In the spirit of area reports, we noticed today for the first time, nice loads of yellow willow pollen coming into the hives, bees are recovering nicely from a very long winter and hopefully getting ready for a great summer. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:03:58 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ttownsend@IBM.NET Subject: Re: Marketing Your Honey Crop ---------------Original Message--------------- Kirk When you talk better than 1.00/lb., would that be Can. or U.S. $. Sometimes its difficult to tell from the address what part of the world a message is comming from. Thanks. >We just got offered .95 a lb. and I have reports of better that a >$1.00/lb.paid on loads. Just three weeks ago we sold a load at .85/lb. It's in US funds that these prices are being quoted in. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:25:56 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ttownsend@IBM.NET DATA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:43:09 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ttownsend@IBM.NET Subject: Re: Coatings for Galvanized Honey Tanks? ---------------Original Message--------------- Soon I'll be refurbishing an old Root 45-frame extractor. Hand power. (just kidding). It's in great shape BUT galvanized, of course, and so are a couple of honey tanks of similar vintage. I've tried "Camcote" coating on a galvanized tank before, but it cracked into tiny fragments which got into my honey. Can anyone recommend a type of enamel or other coating which is food-safe and which will prevent honey from reacting with these galvanized surfaces?? I hope to have the beast in operation this summer. Or maybe I could use it as a planter out on the lawn. Thanks in advance. There are some two part epoxy paints that are approved for honey and adhere very well, contact your local paint supply store, they should be able to give you the correct info. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:55:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Overwintering mininucs Hi Vince- Here in central California, I overwinter four and five frame nucs every year (not mininucs-I think there is a terminology difference here). I typically end up with fifty or a hundred very weak four and five frame nucs (full depth frames) every September in the course of late carrot and onion seed rentals. I take them to a warm location near the coast, stick a syrup bottle through the roof, and requeen them after a week or two. By October or so, I transfer the strongest ones into 8-frame full depth boxes to overwinter in. During late December or early January, I super those that need room. If they have enough frames of bees by February, I rent them in the almonds. If not, I let them sit some more or rob them of enough brood to knock them back into four or five frame nuc boxes to rent again in the early broccoli and cauliflower crops. If they were too weak to transfer into full size boxes, I leave them in the nuc boxes all winter. This last winter I lost three or four out of about 30 that I didn't get around to transferring. I lost more to swarming (couldn't get to them through the mud) than I did to winter losses, although the skunks didn't help any. It's too cold where I live to keep the nucs alive, but by taking them to the coast I can keep them percolating all winter. Some that I transferred out of five frame nuc boxes in September made 12 frames of bees for the almonds in February, and were split in early March. Obviously, the key here is the mild climate. Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:39:37 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Mobile Extraction Hi David always enjoy your posts. Could you refer me to magazine article about mobile extraction. I would like to see how others have set up. Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:52:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Mad Cows (so off topic, please forgive) GS>From: Gordon Scott >Subject: Re: Mad Cows (so off topic, please forgive) GS>A clarification here -- I'm not sure how this affair has been >reported elsewhere. No-one yet knows the real truth for sure, >it may be years before we do. GS>Cattle farmers in the UK were feeding *approved* concentrated >feeds to their livestock, typically in ignorance of the actual >ingredients. They bought their feed in good faith, unaware >that they were feeding processed sheep offal. Many are rightly >horrified at what is seen as an offence to nature. For some, >their cattle are sick too. For all, the value of their cattle >has plummeted. Most are innocent of any malpractice. All are >victims of intensive farming practices, the real or imagined >consequences and the resulting hysteria. Hi Gordon, We have the same disease here in humans, mushy brains, we call it "CJ" in humans. In the US some sheep have little or no brains due to scrapie or some such thing in the sheep and goats. Feeding cows or cattle dead sheep or goats that has scrapie can give them BSE, same as feeding them cows that had BSE. The USDA turned the control of the sheep back to the sheep herders after a few years of a "search and destroy" quarantine. They are reconsidering that move right now. The rate for "CJ" in the US is one per one million people. Thats 20 deaths per year in California, ten's time the number from "killer bees". There is no accepted scientific proof or link between eating beef and "CJ" here or over there, as I understand it. But that will not keep the public from moving away from eating beef especially if there is an active veg'ee group pushing a little with a lot of out of text and miss information. This is not new to us as we had a red apple scare a few years and before that it was cranberries, all based on mis and out of text information put to use by the lunatic fringe groups who get their kick's by forcing every one else to suffer. We in the US do not like to be topped by anyone, and of course we may well follow your lead, as the first story on a local woman just dieing from "CJ" was reported on the local boob tube this evening. It is not a good time here for the cattle or diary industry and in fact the only livestock people who are doing well are the sheep men who are getting almost a buck a pound for 100+ lb lambs which is good for them. Most of the lamb we eat today comes from Australia, but I guess the last drought reduced their numbers. I am not worried as I am a beekeeper (we are stout) and would not turn down some nice cow or sheep brains with scrambled eggs for breakfast if offered, but have not had any for several years. Humm sounds good, I will have to get some soon. ttul Andy- BTW Some researcher's in the US have tried to link "CJ" with the use of hormones used to speed up growth in our fat cattle. You guy's can't use that excuse as you don't use them or know what at tender beefsteak is all about. Always's when we get into these dips based on stats, I always think of the 95% of all US hard core dope addicts in our prisons started on Mother's milk. Don't know what the other's started on. I quit it myself over 56 years ago, but I still have to control myself when it's offered. (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk! --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... When all candles bee out, all cats be gray. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: CORDOVAN Comments: cc: Joe9999125@aol.com In a message dated 96-04-08 17:12:42 EDT, you write: >bj: CORDOVAN > >Does anyone have any information about cordovan bees? > > We have all of the cordovan bees that you could ever want. I have open mated cordovans as well as pure Instrumentally inseminated Queens. Cordovan is a mutant Gene that turns all of the black pigment in bees brown. It is a reccesive gene so both parents must carry the gene to produce a cordovan female bee. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City Florida 33525 (352) 521-0164 E-mail HYBRIBEES@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:37:36 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Soderman Subject: California Pollenators only In-Reply-To: <960408225534_465424835@mail06> Hi I found this on the WWW at: http://www.dgs.ca.gov/osmb/cscr/adcscr/ads.htm under the menu selection titled gardening and agriculture. STATE OF CALIFORNIA Publication Date: April 04, 1996 SA22-02-5007-97 PRISON INDUSTRY AUTHORITY To provide bee pollenation services to Prison Industry Authority at Central California Women's Facility located in Chowchilla, CA. Service will provide pollination of approximately 170 acres of almonds. Estimated Cost: $10,000 - $24,999 Bid Opening.........April 24, 1996 5:00 P.M. Duration............2 years - Subject to Acceptance Location............Chowchilla - Madera Department..........Corrections Contact.............Ray Mattesich (209) 665-5531x7420 For Your Information from Phil Soderman sgrower1@rain.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:04:04 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morten Brixtofte Petersen Subject: Stung by dead bee? Hello Beeliners! When cleaning up some frames with dead bees (starved), we discussed if one could be stung by a dead bee. Instad of trying i hereby ask You: Can you get stung (with venom) by the stinger of a dead bee? Regards Morten Petersen mp@kvl.dk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:35:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: CORDOVAN Cordovans are really sharp looking. I was fortunate to actually have a swarm of them take over one of my bait-hives a couple of years ago. My guess is that they were from one of Cornell's experimental colonies, as the empty hive was not far from campus. Who knows. I can't recall what became of them; evidently the cordovan queen was superseded. It did make for an odd sight when watching the foragers or just opening the hive for a look. Sortof like angel-bees! I'd love to see a cordovan-carniolan sometime. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:04:04 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Insurance for Beekeepers Gentlepeople: I seem to be full of more questions than I am able to give answers--please forgive. When I have another several years of beekeeping under my belt and have settled into a way of doing business, I will start contributing some of my own "sage" advice, until then.... The latest thread of my thoughts has been toward liability insurance for my beekeeping. There have been several posts recently that implied that some "horror stories" of dealing with homeowners insurance providers that have been timely. I was on the verge of calling my own homeowners provider to see if I needed some form of liability rider for my bees. I think now it would be safer for me to approach you all with a request for the phone numbers of either Canadian or US insurance carriers who could provide insurance for a hobbyist. Or, perhaps, there is a beekeepers association that has a group policy that I could tie into? Yours buzzin' Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM PS. I saw our first dandelion in Dayton Ohio yesterday. The temperature was 37 degrees and it was snowing, but it was there, bright as can bee. Here we go....... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:34:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Insurance for Beekeepers Regarding liability insurance, Is the major concern that of neighbors being stung? Or are you considering liability insu. because you are selling honey? Should honey producers even doing a small retail business worry about appropriate liability in case someone claims the food products they bought (pollen, honey, whatever) made them ill?? Not that honey or pollen would ever make anyone sick, but in these suit-happy days you've got to be prepared... Thoughts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:13:45 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 4 Apr 1996 to 5 Apr 1996 In-Reply-To: <01I373613DBMQYU75K@saturn.gov.bc.ca> Re. Formic Acid Bill Miller correctly pointed out that the reason formic acid (FA) has not been approved for use in the US (until now) is because of bureaucracy and regulations. I suspect, American beekeepers are experiencing the same problem and frustration as Canadian beekeepers did some years ago. The regulatory structure established for the approval and registration of a product has been designed to deal with a company or individual holding propietary rights to a product it wishes to have approved and registered. Such corporate entity would have to travel through the obligatory route of trials and testing with making the information available to the regulatory agencies. This process generally takes years and millions ($) to complete. But of course, the corporation has at least the assurance of having a monopolistic position in the market place for that product for I believe 20 years. But what about FA? This is a generic product on which nobody has propietary rights. As such, nobody is willing or could afford to carry out efficacy trials, residue testing, etc. without the opportunity to recoup those expenses through future sales. Here in Canada, the beekeeping industry and provincial jurisdictions decided to carry out trials under federal experimental permits for several years. Several people in different provinces coordinated the data collection and label write-up. A video showing the proposed methods of application was made and presented to the key federal officials involved in the approval process. It was only then that FA (65% concentration) became an approved product in beehives for the control of varroa and HBTM in Canada. I hope American beekeepers can establish a similar, industry-supported effort that would see FA become an approved product in the US. FA is not an ideal product both in its efficacy or applicator exposure but it is a valuable tool when used alternatively to Apistan. Paul van Westendorp pvanwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:25:29 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Rack I got a book from the library, "Let's Build a Bee Hive" by Wilbert R. Miller, copyright 1976. I contains plans for building three things I haven't seen mentioned much in other books I've read. 1. Slatted Rack - placed below the brood chamber it is supposed to give better egg laying, less entrance congestion. 2. Follower Board - the idea being that most queens won't lay in frames next to the wall, so the follower boards provide insulation on each wall for the reamining 9 frames. 3. Cluster Rack - used between frames to provide cluster room for the bees and cuts down on swarming activity. Does anyone have any experience or anecdotal knowledge with any of these devices, either brought or constructed? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:57:17 CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Nabors Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra A following board is a 1x6 or 1x4 or 1x10 piece of lumber (depending on size of super) that is 19.5" long with two dog ears (2 strtegic nails will do) to fit between the brood frames and the the side of the box. The purpose is to keep bees from waxing the frames to the side of the box. A following board is more easily removed than a frame and makes working the bees faster and easier. It does reduce comb area by 10%. This is usually insignificant when you are adding supers over the brood nest. The insulation value of this board is probably not significant. When you pull the following board out of one side of the hive, (we are supposed to work bees from the side to prevent disturbing guard bees) set it beside the hive and go through each frame then replace the following board on the other side when you are finished. Following boards are always the last thing to go back in a super hense the name "following board". I recomend their use for the hobby beekeeper because they are easily made and make working bees easier. Many commercial beekeepers use a division board feeder which does a similar job and allows feeding also. If you are a hobby beekeeper, it is easier to use entrance feeders because you do not need to open the hive to feed. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Rack Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at internet-ext Date: 4/9/96 12:34 PM I got a book from the library, "Let's Build a Bee Hive" by Wilbert R. Miller, copyright 1976. I contains plans for building three things I haven't seen mentioned much in other books I've read. 1. Slatted Rack - placed below the brood chamber it is supposed to give better egg laying, less entrance congestion. 2. Follower Board - the idea being that most queens won't lay in frames next to the wall, so the follower boards provide insulation on each wall for the reamining 9 frames. 3. Cluster Rack - used between frames to provide cluster room for the bees and cuts down on swarming activity. Does anyone have any experience or anecdotal knowledge with any of these devices, either brought or constructed? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:14:33 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra hi there, i don't understand the need to fill up the space left as a result of putting in 9 frames instead of 10 by using a follower board. if the concern is burr comb to the sides of the hive caused by the extra space, then why not use 10 frames to fill up the space? you'd get more honey, less burr comb and more brood. Correct? i never did understand the 9 vs 10 frame principal.. can someone convince me why it is better? thanks john ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:23:45 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Slatted racks, follower boards and cluster boards The only place I have seen slatted racks and follower boards discussed is in Killion's _Honey_in_the_Comb_ from Dadant Press. Killion swears by both, the slatted rack to cut down on drafts into the brood chamber and to provide room for bees thereby relieving conjestion within the hive, and the follower board to insulate between brood frames and hive wall and to provide room to manipulate frames after the follower board is removed. Killion calls for a follower boards on each side of the brood chamber. I highly recommend _Honey_in_the_Comb_ which contains many good tips besides producing comb honey. The section on queen rearing is top notch and excellent for both small time or commercial operations. I have never heard of cluster boards, buy hey, two outta three ain't bad! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:37:12 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: 9 vs 10 frames and follower boards John Day queries why 9 vs 10 frames and why a follower board. Running a hive for the first year with 10 frames is not a problem, as the frames are new and clean and there is plenty of room to manipulate. However, after a season (or two) the frames don't fit together as well as they did when they were new (and clean) and it becomes quite tight having ten frames per brood chamber. Enter two follower boards and 9 frames: the two fbs are narrower than the frame they replace, are much easier to remove than the tenth frame and provide plenty of room to move the remaining 9 frames once the fbs are removed from the hive. I don't have the dimensions for a fb, but recall that they are 3/8 inch thick. 3/8' is not a common lumber stock (subscribers of more than a year may recall a query posted this time last year requesting a source for 3/8' stock). It turns out that the wood used in bee shipping packages is 3/8' and can be salvaged to make up follower boards! Score one for the frugal beekeeper! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:50:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Stung by dead bee? I get stung by dead bees more or less regularly. I seem to be always brushing up against bees that have been mashed by a frame, or sitting down on burlap that has dead bees tangled in its fibers (that's really embarrassing). Dead bees are not particularly aggressive, so they don't inject much venom; however, they do inject a little venom. I don't think bees that have been dead for a long time (such as one might find in a starved colony) will sting. I think you have to get to them within a few days of death. Just my two cents. Shawna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Pollen The problem with books for identifying pollen is that the darn authors never seem to have taken pictures of the pollen entering *MY* hives. I finds the best way to identify pollen is to wander about on nice days smelling the flowers and watching for bees. When I see a bee gathering pollen, I check out the color of the pollen pack, then I identify the flower that she's on. Voila--I now know the pollen color of one more local flower. This technique also has the advantage of helping me determine honey plant bloom cycles. Only in beekeeping can we wander aimlessly about the fields (or neighborhood gardens) looking at flowers and legitimately call it work. Who wants to read a musty old book, anyway? Shawna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re; Help >Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 16:27:50 -0600 (CST) >X-Sender: barfly@mailbox.arn.net >To: beeworks@muskoka.net >From: fran yates >Subject: bees > I ran across your home page while I was surfing the internet. My >husband and >I have a small truck farm in the panhandle of Texas and I have long wondered >if we would get better results in our vegetables by incorporating two or >three bee hives. I am interested in a catalog of your operation. I have >parts of some hives and need frames, wax, and the bees with their queen. I >prefer the non-agressive variety as I like to watch a hive working. > > Please e-mail me at barfly@arn.net or FY1001@aol.com > > Send catalog to > Fran Yates > Box 7 > Sanford, TX 79078 I received this from the Web. Could someone closer to, take her under their wing and help her out? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:52:45 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Stung by dead bee? >When cleaning up some frames with dead bees (starved), we discussed if >one could be stung by a dead bee. Instad of trying i hereby ask You: Can >you get stung (with venom) by the stinger of a dead bee? Yes, last year I jammed my finger end on a dead bee during clean-up, and got stung! Whether there was any venom left I don't know as I don't swell even on a normal sting. The mechanism is still there, even though the bee is dead. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:35:30 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: EYE COLOR MUTATIONS Does anyone have or know of anyone who has honeybee stock with eye color mutations? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:37:09 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jane Beckman Subject: Re: Pollen The other problem with pollen identifier books is that they are region- specific and ecotone-specific. If you're in England, you're getting very different pollen loads from the eastern United States from the Southwestern United States, from Greece, from... Also, if you're in proximity to a specific crop, or (like many hobbiests) around a suburban planting environment, it's going to have a big effect that may not be reflected in superficial appearances of what's in the pollen baskets at a specific time. Unless you're willing to put the pollen under a microscope and examine morphology, you would be better to just observe the pollen loads on the bees on flowers, as mentioned. Jane B. [jane@swdc.stratus.com] (in San Jose, California, of the strange current climate) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:53:06 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Re: Pollen -Reply Comments: To: Gypsybees@AOL.COM If you read the books on pollen identification, you'll find the authors used the same process you describe here. So they'd be the first ones to suggest that you do the same, especially since the plant species they have identified most probably won't include all the species found in your local area. There is also the problem of variation in colour shading in pollen pellets from the same species, depending on time after collection, and addition of nectar. One of the good things about the Kirk book (A Colour Guide to Pollen Loads of the Honey Bee) is that it uses a standard colour chart (recorded as CMYK screen tint percentages). If you really want to get specific about pollen colours (and their variation), using such a colour chart to compare pollen loads collected in your area is a good idea. A chart comparison may also help you differentiate pollen loads from different species with very similar colours. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:05:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: EYE COLOR MUTATIONS Comments: To: Joe9999125@aol.com In a message dated 96-04-09 16:37:29 EDT, you write: >Subj: EYE COLOR MUTATIONS >Date: 96-04-09 16:37:29 EDT >From: Joe9999125@AOL.COM (Joe Latshaw) >Sender: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Discussion of Bee Biology) >Reply-to: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Discussion of Bee Biology) >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Multiple recipients of list BEE-L) > >Does anyone have or know of anyone who has honeybee stock with eye color >mutations? There used to be a lot of red - eyed drones in the wild stock around Loris and North Conway, SC. It would show up now and then in commercial stock. I don't have any bees in the area, so I haven't seen it in quite some time. It may be lost, along with most wild bees in these Varroa - infested times. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:06:29 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Mobile Extraction In-Reply-To: <199604090339.RAA16041@lehua.ilhawaii.net> from "Walter Patton" at Apr 8, 96 05:39:37 pm Hi: Some comments concerning recent posts. 1. Mobile Extracint Vincent Vazza, a commercial beekeeper based in Hermiston, OR used to do all of his extracting in a mobile unit set up in a semi-van. Last time I was at his place, he still had everything parked out back of the honey house. You can see a picture of Vincent delivering a pallet of bees into an orchard in the National Geographic article that ran a couple of years ago. 2. Follower boards - pretty much as described. We most often see them in nucleus boxes to reduce extra space (for example, putting 3 frames into a 5 frame nucleus box). None of the Commercial Beekeepers in the NW use them - at least none that I have seen. Many commercial beekeepers go to 9 frames in the honey supers. They space the frames evenly, and the frames get pulled out a bit farther by the bees during good flows. I would guess that the beekeepers do this to make it a bit easier to pull frames. With 10 in a honey super, combined with heavy nectar flows, the frames tend to be drawn so far that they almost touch each other. Getting the first frame out without scoring the adjacent frames and having lots of honey drip out is tough - things get real tight in a honey super with 10 frames. 3. Slatted bottom boards - very common among hobbiest beekeepers in the NW om the coast, such as around Seattle. Many claim that during wet weather, the slatted board helps keep condensation down in the hive. I have watched water dripping out of the inside of hives in this area during wet, moist, cool periods. If nothing else, it keeps the brood box up off a wet bottom board. 4. Cluster boards - not anything we see in this part of the world. As per the insulation offered by follower boards - don't know. There is (was) a fancy hive sold in on the coast during the mid-80's that had a spacer board permanently attached to the inside walls of the hives - presumably to provide better insulation and to avoid the need to wrap hives in the winter. Never saw any data to substantiate these claims - but it could easily be tested. Ed Southwick found that bees apparently use an empty frame near the outside of a cluster as a form of insulation board during very cold weather - the bees moved over against the empty comb. Wax wall on one side, empty cells, bees pressed against the other - creating a dead air space. Cheers Jerry J. Bromenshenk The University of Montana jjbmail@selway.umt.edu WWW site: http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees P.S. Hope to meet lots of new beekeepers this summer. Looks like we will be working in Maryland. Long way from Montana. And no, I'm not vacating the state because of the Freeman, Militia, or Unabomber. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:16:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra John Day wrote. >i don't understand the need to fill up the space left as a result of putting >in 9 frames instead of 10 by using a follower board. if the concern is >burr comb to the sides of the hive caused by the extra space, then why not >use 10 frames to fill up the space? you'd get more honey, less burr comb >and more brood. Correct? > >i never did understand the 9 vs 10 frame principal.. can someone convince >me why it is better? I for one will certainly not try to convince you. In fact I fail to understand why we want less brood space, as that's what you get when you go from 10 to 9 frames. The bees don't keep less stores in the outer frames just because the keeper wants to make it easier for himself. For this very reason our hive (D.E.) has 11 frames. More frames, more brood----- more brood, more honey. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:06:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra Langstroth Hoffmann frames (standard) have a width such that the center of each comb is 1 3/8" away from the center of the next. When the comb is built out from foundation you're left with your bee space between the comb surfaces. When Chas. Dadant came up with his hive design he incorporated brood frame widths of 1 1/2" instead of 1 3/8". The Dadants claimed that the ventilation was better with the wider spacing, and that the bees wintered better. (In nature the combs can be found that far apart.) I agree that after a year or two it gets hard to deal with a full complement of 10 frames in a hive body. The propolis gradually builds up and gets in the way. I used to scrape down the edges of the frames to get rid of it but that is a pain. I even got some "frame grips" to get that first comb out, but that didn't solve the problem, either. Following the advice of Walter Kelly and Richard Taylor (and much of the commercial crowd) I finally went to 9 frames, and I've found that the work is much easier now. (Many of my frames are old, and with 10 of them cemented into a brood box I would often have them break when I tried to separate them.) With the 1 1/2" spacing, leaving just a very slight space between adjoining end bars, the frames are easier to remove. Follower boards to take up the extra space would be fine but another piece of equipment to worry about. Instead, I just let them build the two outside combs out a little thicker, which they will, since there's a bit of extra space at each end. This is no big deal, cuz those combs are only going to have food stores in them anyway. (keep the best combs in toward the center for the queen, lousy ones at edges). It's easy to get one of those end frames out, leaving you lots of working space. On the other hand, if you just haphazardly leave 9 frames instead of 10 without spacing them, some brood combs will be thicker than others or crooked and that can be a mess. After a while the propolis between the frames makes an automatic "spacer," to some extent. With two (+) deep boxes for brood the queen has plenty of space on 18 frames. It would be an exceptional queen who could even completely lay out 9 frames. & in single brood chamber hives I have seen the queen lay right out to the hive walls on both sides, without follower boards. I've tried tunnel entrances (an insert that is sort of like the front section of a Killion rack). Made em from tempered hardboard. It did cut down on the gnawing of the bottom combs, but eventually the bees really chewed the boards up so I guess they didn't like them. And, again, it's another piece of gear to contend with. What's nice about the Miller - Killion floor design is that you can slide a comb of honey in there sideways for feeding, after you remove the rack part. (In Germany many beekeepers using standard Zander frames also prefer 9 instead of 10 in brood chambers, and the Scottish Smith hive is often run with 1 1/2" wide brood frames too). If you're really cramming the bees to get them to work the section boxes, then do as Dr. Miller and the Killions did with racks and followers. I'd rather keep it simple and put those resources into super space for the crop. With appropriate supering there doesn't seem to be excessive burr comb with 9 fr. Well, there's always a colony or two... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:06:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: EYE COLOR MUTATIONS I have one colony with white eyes but they have to be I.I. to keep them going and the bees from pure stock appear blind. Just got them this spring found a queen that had drones with white eyes. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:52:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: cluster frames, description These were advertised alot during early 70's. They are plastic or wooden "screens" (grates) in the shape of a regular frame, say 1/8 - 1/4" thick. The mesh is such that the bees can pass through them. What you do is reduce the number of frames to 9 (or 8?) and hang one of these dummy grate-frames in between each pair of combs. The idea was to increase the space between comb surfaces without letting the bees construct anything in that space. There were big claims that this was the answer to all your swarming worries, by giving the bees more room to cluster & work between combs. In practice they didn't work consistently and the idea was abandoned from what I remember. Gleanings ran an article or two several years ago that basically said "they don't work - don't bother." BTW they were marketed as "No-Swarm Cluster Frames," and they were pretty expensive for what they were. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:06:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra > John Day wrote. > >>i don't understand the need to fill up the space left as a result of putting >>in 9 frames instead of 10 by using a follower board. if the concern is >>burr comb to the sides of the hive caused by the extra space, then why not >>use 10 frames to fill up the space? you'd get more honey, less burr comb >>and more brood. Correct? >> >>i never did understand the 9 vs 10 frame principal.. can someone convince >>me why it is better? Nine frames in the supers is a good idea, because a thicker comb is easier to uncap. Nine frame in the brood chamber would be really foolish for a migratory beekeeper. Anytime you remove any frames, you always have to wait a few weeks, until they are glued again, before trucking. Otherwise the loose frames will beat the bees to death. I also agree that the tenth frame becomes very important in the spring, when you want as much brood as possible. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:58:41 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Miscellaneous Odd Beekeeping Gear > >i don't understand the need to fill up the space left as a result > >of putting in 9 frames instead of 10 by using a follower board. if > >the concern is burr comb to the sides of the hive caused by the > >extra space, then why not use 10 frames to fill up the space? > >you'd get more honey, less burr comb and more brood. Correct? > > > >i never did understand the 9 vs 10 frame principal.. can someone > >convince me why it is better? > > I for one will certainly not try to convince you. In fact I fail to > understand why we want less brood space, as that's what you get when > you go from 10 to 9 frames. The bees don't keep less stores in the > outer frames just because the keeper wants to make it easier for > himself. For this very reason our hive (D.E.) has 11 frames. More > frames, more brood----- more brood, more honey. Well, yes and no. More brood may mean more bees, but if the timing is wrong, it means more honey, all right -- more honey eaten, not produced. Managing brood production timing and amount is part of getting a crop in many areas. We keep bees in singles, doubles, 10 frame, 9 frame, and sometimes (accidently when a swarm gets housed in a 8 frame, metal spaced super), eight. 9 or 10 frame spacing in brood chambers seem to make *no* difference to the bees we use. 8 frame spacing doesn't work very well, especially for wintering. I used to run jumbos and also had an outfit with 12 frames to the brood box. Jumbos on 10 frame spacing are the best brood combs ever devised IMHO. Queens love them. Just hard to handle. More than 9 or 10 frames to a single brood chamber are seldom used by a queen in my experience. In a double brood box system, they are sometimes disadvantageous. Follower boards make sense in a brood box particularly if you use two standard broods and an excluder, because if the bees store too much honey below the screen early in the season, they may not go up to the supers promptly. We're thinking of follower boards in our broods this year, simply because the one less frame required would save us $1.50 X 2 X 2600= $7,800.00 in frame ownership and, in return cost us about $2,500, depending on the price of getting them made. There is also the time saved in pulling and replacing frames during the inspection of 2,600 hives. At one minute per hive 3 times a year at $10 per hour, that comes to 2,600 X $10/60 X 3 = $1300.00 per year in savings Anyone have a good (cheap) design??? Speaking of odd gear, has anyone tried the 8 X 8 inch piece of 5 mesh hardware cloth instead of an excluder? Apparently when placed on the centre of the top of the brood nest, it will keep the queen down most of the time without impeding the bees. I used to use 5 mesh harware cloth (screen) for excluders on my Farrar hives (20 X 20 inch boxes). It works just fine, but I used them full size, not as described here. We've used slatted racks and they are a good idea, but in a commercial outfit, they are just one more thing to fall off a truck and get stepped on, broken, etc. If I were a hobbyist, I think I'd try them -- especially for comb honey production. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Verville Subject: Delaplane's email address Comments: To: att!BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU Can some one send me Dr. Delaplane's email address. The address I have keeps getting bounced back to me undeliverable. Thanks Dave Verville Essex County Beekeepers (Since 1844) att!mvcss!mvdfv ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:27:35 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra In-Reply-To: <960410010633_268162456@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" at Apr 10, 96 01:06:34 am Several people have debated the merits of follower boards in brood boxes, queen excluders, etc. For almost two decades, we have been measuring brood areas, food stores, etc. in brood boxes of both nucleus and full-sized commercial hives. Every commercial beekeeper had a slightly different approach. Each had "fine-tuned" for his or her area. So, what did we find. Well, drop on a queen excluder and all sorts of things happen downstairs. 1) A high percentage of queen are lost, superseded, etc. Some of this seems to be in response to use of chemicals to drive bees down into the lower boxes; some seems to be a response to the "constrained" brood nest area. 2) The queen loss produces a brood break - an obvious, but unplanned, result. 3) Nectar plugging produces additional reductions of brood area. Under heavy flows, the bees dump nectar in brood cells. In colonies without excluders, the queens often move higher and maintain more brood. Colonies dropped to thre first story often get plugged out. 4) Some colonies even abort brood. With the constraints put on the brood nest area, there is less room for pollen storage, brood rearing, etc. Looks like we get an imbalance, and the bees make adjustments. Now, if your goal is to reduce brood rearing, numbers of bees to overwinter, number of mouths to feed, etc. then go right ahead and use excluders, follower boards, etc. But remember, the reduction that you get is likely to be a lot larger than you expected. Quite frankly, most beekeepers do what they think works best - most have no hard comparative data to show whether it does or doesn't. A commercial beekeepers running thousands of hives may have to use excluders just to keep the time in the field to a minimum and to reduce the chance of pulling the queen and brood with the honey supers. That is clearly an advantage, one that can save dollars in labor. In areas where nectar flows come in distinct cycles, reducing the number of bees between flows may reduce the amount of honey consumed and induce the queen to produce more new bees for the next flow. Our models suggest this might increase production. However, in most cases and in most years in Montana, constraining the brood area and slowing bee movement to the honey supers reduces honey production and overwintering success. I have 20+ years of hard data to support these conclusions for this climate. On the other hand, the Seattle beekeepers that we worked with have a vastly different climate. Their bees sit around for a "long, cool" winter, and apparently eat lots of stores over the winter. Because the temperatures are mild, the bees stay more active, and seem to eat more. So, smaller cluster sizes for winter seem to be a reasonable goal - but I don't have the data to truly access this outcome. In these times where tracheal and varroa mites impact colonies, we may want to revist the minimalist approach to overwintering. Maybe we ought to aim for stronger colonies going in to the winter, to help offset the mite impacts. This assumes you use some form of treatment to control mites, or have some mite resistance in your colonies. Otherwise, strong colonies may just end up with more mites and even bigger piles of dead bees. Food for thought. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:43:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Odd Beekeeping Gear Okay here goes again; hopefully the picture will come out right this time: > >The simplest type of follower board I've come across was described in >Gleanings' (ABJ?) gadgets and gismos column. The guy used 1/4 " tempered >hardboard cut to the rectangular dimensions of a frame. Then using a >brake he folded a narrow strip of sheet metal the length of a top bar >to this shape: (end view) > >___ >| | >| | > >This was slipped over the top of the board and simply riveted thru it. > At each end, for the "lugs" from which the board will hang, you snip >the metal where it sticks out from the board (below) and fold it under >with needle nose pliers. >_____________________________ >|__i_______________________i__| --fold this section under after cut > | | | | | | | | > |_______________________| > >I hope the diagram doesn't get messed up in the transfer. It should >look like the shape of a frame... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley, a De Leon Socialist" Subject: Re: CORDOVAN In-Reply-To: Does anyone sell them or do you have to have them stumble upon you? I've seen them in BEE CULTURE and I'd like to get some one of these days. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, University Of Scranton | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu | reaction is the alternative. ddc1@SCRANTON | -Daniel De Leon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:20:48 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Delaplane's email address My file shows Keith's email address as kdelapla@service.uga.edu Larry Connor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:06:10 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US Subject: Re D.E. Hive I have heard of this hive on BEE-L, but not familiar with it. How is it an improvement over using a second (or third) brood box as far as increasing brood? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at DOTPFWAN Date: 4/9/96 3:31 PM For this very reason our hive (D.E.) has 11 frames. More frames, more brood----- more brood, more honey. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:39:55 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: To Clip or Not to Clip Are there any commercial beekeepers in the U.S. who clip their queens' wings? I don't know of anybody here in California who does it. Maybe other parts of the country do. Based on responses, it looks like wing clipping is common in the UK, even among commercial beekeepers. And at least one commercial outfit in Australia clips wings. Is wing clipping common among commercial beekeepers in any other countries? I have always assumed that wing clipping is the sort of thing only hobbyists do nowadays. It just doesn't seem like it's worth the bother. As swarm prevention, it's pretty ineffectual. Let's face it, if I haven't had time to get to the hive by the time they're heading out the door, I'm *NOT* going to have time to get to them in the day or two of grace that a clipped queen seems to provide. And once they've already tried to swarm once and lost the old queen, I lose all sorts of brood-rearing time. I would rather manage swarming BEFORE it gets started. We try to re-queen most of our colonies in the autumn. Good young queens don't seem to swarm much. And we shake bees and make splits from our strong colonies in the spring before the swarming instinct kicks in--this knocks 'em back a bit and usually keeps 'em in the box instead of in the trees. We still lose a few swarms now and then, but it sounds to me like people who use clipped queens still lose swarms too. Shawna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:45:45 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Terramycin Patties I have three active hives that I gave terramycin patties about a month ago. They have show little intrest in it and most of it still remains. My question is, is this the best method for treating for foul brood, or is dusting with terramycin mixed with powdered surgar a better method? I know that the crisco in the patties is used to help control trachel mites, but this can be accomplished by just using powdered sugar and crisco as an extender patty, and can be used at anytime, whereas the terramycin should be removed 6 weeks before a honey flow. -- *************************** * Charles (Rick) Grubbs * * digital@avana.net * * Douglasville, Ga SE USA * *************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:50:40 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Swarms and Apistan In reply to my suggestion that a swarm should be given Apistan at day one Bill Miller presents a good case for putting in the strips a week later. I think the choice depends on circumstances and what happens next. I refer to stray swarms, origin unknown, and they must always be suspect. If the swarm is from one's own apiary the only sensible course is to return it and no other action is necessary. If a stray then the action taken depends on what the beekeeper intends to do with it. Most small beekeepers will use it to produce a surplus and for this the supers must go on as soon as possible. Every swarm goes steadily downhill for the first six weeks. No appreciable number of new bees will hatch until four weeks have passed. Add two weeks for them to reach foraging age. By this time much of the original swarm will have died from wear and tear and old age. Thus to take advantage of a swarm the supers must go on at the start, when it will fill a shallow super in a week, weather and flora permitting. We have a strict rule here. Supers on, strips out. If we wait a week there will be larvae present and mites will be entering to breed. The strips will have to remain several weeks to meet them coming out. In this case the supers must stay off until it is too late to benefit. If the strips go in at day one they will kill most of the mites in a few days and can then come out. Putting in a floor insert will show whether infestation exists and is slight or severe. If one is unsure where to position the strips put in four instead of two. Once the supers go on further treatment will be of the "harmless to honey" type. I have rarely had a problem with swarms decamping, perhaps half a dozen in sixty years. Some take a swarm and hive it straightaway. This is wrong. One should capture it in a suitable box or skep, not too small, not too big and leave it close to where it was captured, shaded from the sun, until the evening. Then move it to the apiary and hive it in the last hour of daylight. I always run them in at the entrance. When all are in I shut the entrance to around one square inch. Swarms do not take kindly to an entrance fourteen inches wide. Maybe their instinct tells them it is too big to guard. Open it up a few days later. They have ample stores for a day or two in their honey sacs and the young ones are already making wax. Consider a boost feed two or three days later, especially if the weather changes or the nectar dries up. Here we have the most unpredictable weather in the world. Blazing sun and ten to fifteen pounds of nectar one day, heavy overcast or rain the next. Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:01:48 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Q: Frame order and repostion when inspecting This is a real beginner question. When inspecting a hive, assuming 10 fames, designated 1-10 with oreintation <, what is the proper procedure and are there any hints to make it easier to get it right? Beginning config: <1 <2 <3 <4 <5 <6 <7 <8 <9 <10 Remove <1 and then do what ...? Being careful to ...? Finishing with which arragement?: <1 <2 <3 <4 <5 <6 <7 <8 <9 <10 or <2 <3 <4 <5 <6 <7 <8 <9 <10 <1 or <2 <3 <4 <5 <6 <7 <8 <9 <10 1> or something else. Are honey and brood chambers treated differently? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:05:36 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Terramycin Patties > I have three active hives that I gave terramycin patties about a > month ago. They have show little intrest in it and most of it still > remains. My question is, is this the best method for treating for > foul brood, or is dusting with terramycin mixed with powdered sugar > a better method? Dusting is best, followed by syrup and extenders, IMO, anyhow. Someone is going to say that TM dies fast in syrup. True, but it works anyhow -- assuming the bees take it fairly quickly. I don't know why. Your choice of methods depends whether you are seeing a bit of AFB or not. If so, dusting often will clean it up in a good hive at the right time of year. Dusting will even deal with some scale -- in the hands of an expert. But don't try this at home kids. Not unless you are sure you know what you are doing. Extender patties are good to prevent AFB. All methods are good and all require some powers of judgement and observation to work well. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:11:02 PDT Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: Stung by dead bee? Hello Moreton, I have often been stung by a squashed bee. I try to extract honey as soon as the supers are brought home. There is often a squashed bee on the top or bottom rim of the super and if a finger comes into firm contact at the right angle....... OK! It's a surprise. I think the bee would have to be recently squashed. Recently someone on the List asked if there was a bee proof suit as he was allergic!! Beekeepers will always bee stung - and often when you least expect it. Is no use relying on a bee proof suit even if one exists. I hope our allergic Bee-liner has decided to give up. Glyn Davies Ashburton, Devon UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:33:29 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Q: Frame order and repostion when inspecting Everybody develops their own preferences for frame order as they develop their own style of working the bees. There are a couple general guidelines, though. As a general rule, don't break up the brood nest. This is a rule that you will break when you get more experience...there are sometimes good reasons to break up a brood nest. However, I have seen a lot of beginners break up a brood nest because of some not-yet-understood theory, and often the brood dies because the bees can't keep it warm. Err on the side of caution, and keep those frames together (and away from the wall if possible). For example, if there is brood in 6 7 8 9, you can do anything you like with 1 2 3 4 5 and 10. A final configuration that would serve the purpose of centering the brood nest might look like this: 1 2 3 6 7 8 9 4 5 10. In the supers, you move the frames on the outside toward the middle. The bees tend to work the frames in the middle more than the ones on the edges. Good luck, and have fun. Shawna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:07:39 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: EYE COLOR MUTATIONS In-Reply-To: <960409190548_187907262@emout04.mail.aol.com> On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter wrote: > There used to be a lot of red - eyed drones in the wild stock > around Loris and North Conway, SC. It's that Sourmash Whiskey they drink :-) Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:28:52 PDT Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: To Clip or Not to Clip Shawna, Greetings from UK Yes there is an obsession here with clipping Q wings. I don't, just because it seems a very unkind thing to do. I once heard an expert on insect flight say that there are sensory nerve endings on insect wings especially the leading edge; that put me off the idea altogether! So I do lose some swarms but as you sensibly point out they would probably go anyway if other forms of basic control have been done and the urge to swarm remains. I do mark Q's though. I also like your thoughts on pollen colours and identification I'm glad someone else likes to look closely at bees while they are on flowers. Have you noticed that sometimes after lifting off from a flower a bee will hover and apparently discard pollen. It is possible to see tiny specks of something falling while they rub their back legs together. I regret I've never bothered to try to catch some of the material to identify it. I cannot remember now which plant it was on at the time. Something to look out for again this season. Best Wishes Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:46:00 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Haehnle/Keppler Subject: coop. with croation or slovenien beek. Hi, for me, as a german biologist and commertial beekeeper (specialized on queenrearing) it looks like a good idea to look for a cooperation with croation or slovenien beekeepers for rearing carnolian queens and produsing artificial swarms in april, mai and june. If you are interested and like to know more about me and my plans, or you know somebody who migth be interested in a cooperation, plaese let me know. I think it would be better to answer to my privat adress than to the list. Thanks for any help! Andreas Haehnle e-mail: Haehnle-Keppler@t-oneline.de mail: Hohlstrasse 4 35329 Gem|nden (Felda)1 Germany phone: +4966348749 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:32:57 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Self Introduction Hello All: I am new to this list and that is the reason for this E-mail. I want to keep bees as a hobby. My father kept bees off and on from about 1950 to about 1993 when they got to be too much with all the other yard work. He was 80 last week. I remember helping my father with the bees as a boy and young man. I am now in my fifties and have built a retirement place in Northern California. It is about 35 miles east of Red Bluff at about 3500'. Plenty of manzinita,sage (buckbrush) and star thistle. Buckeye is also around and I know I will have to take precautions with this. Andy from Wild Bees has already been of help. Oh yes I forgot to mention the bears. There are a few in the area. However if one only has a hive or two I would suppose one bear is enough. That is why I am at present scrounging for a fence charger. I am still working in the San Francisco Bay Area so I only get up to my place two or three times a month. This means I will have to do some extra planning about the things I do with the bees I hope to have up there soon. Thank You Jeffrey R. Tooker ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:19:09 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: CORDOVAN Comments: cc: ddc1@tiger.uofs.edu In a message dated 96-04-10 12:10:29 EDT, you write: >Subj: Re: CORDOVAN >Date: 96-04-10 12:10:29 EDT > Does anyone sell them or do you have to have them stumble upon you? >I've seen them in BEE CULTURE and I'd like to get some one of these days. > > Yes, We raise the Cordovans as a part of the Starline program. The Cordovan marker has been used on and off in the Starline program for many years. I sell open mated Cordavan Queens from St.Ambrose Apairys at the same address and phone etc. as Hybri-Bees. Open mated queens show some cordavan bees. But to really see them at their best you should see the Inseminated queens that show workers and drones at 100%. They look like gold. While the Starline Breeders that whent out last year were Cordavan the Daughter queens and their worker would be of the wild type. You should however be able to find 50% of the drones to be Cordavan from the stalines from last year 1995. Dean M. Breaux 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City Florida 33525 (352) 521-0164 Email hybribees@aol.Com PS we are Booked up for Queen Orders till mid to end of may. one or two may be possible early but that will be as available. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:19:15 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: To Clip or Not to Clip In a message dated 96-04-10 13:42:36 EDT, you write: > >Are there any commercial beekeepers in the U.S. who clip their queens' wings? > I don't know of anybody here in California who does it. Maybe other parts >of the country do. > > We clip all of our breeder queens and mark them approx 200. We also clip and mark all of the stock that we test. It is to easy to have the bees clean of a marker but the wings stay clipped. One of the most important things in evaluating stock is that one you know the age of the Queen and Two that you know for certain what stock she is. We have seen all to often a supersedure queen that looked great because she was young or crossed etc. So yes we do clip and mark about 400 open mated production queens each year. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees Dade City Florida ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:19:17 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Q: Frame order and repostion when inspecting In a message dated 96-04-10 14:15:00 EDT, you write: > This is a real beginner question. When inspecting a >hive, assuming 10 fames, designated 1-10 with oreintation <, >what is the proper procedure and are there any hints to make >it easier to get it right? Remove any end frame first 1 or 10 inspect the hive and place them back like you found them in the hive. The out board frames (1and10) are usually food stores pollen and honey. The frames 2 thru 9 are brood frames. The reason that you want to put them back like you find them is to keep the brood nest intact. If you put a frame of pollen in the middle or the 2 or 8 position the bees will start a new pollen frame on the out board frame 1 and 10 and the old out board frames will be plugged up with pollen or honey and restrict the space the queen has to lay in. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees Breeding Better Bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:17:20 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: New Nuc Protection Hello All: If you read my last post you know that I am hobbiest just starting out. I want to start with a nuc (four frame from a reputable supply house) in a brood chamber with nine or ten full sized frames. I am starting clean this month and do not plan to take any honey untill next year. I would like information on when and how to start treatment for brood diseases and mites? Thank You Jeffrey Tooker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:43:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: California Pollenators only Hi Folks- If you pollinate almonds in the Valley and are interested in the almond contract at the Central California Women's Facility located in Chowchilla mentioned by Phil, be sure you understand exactly what the current constraints of the contract are before you sign anything. This year I was told they wrote the contract with poorly reasoned restrictions: no feeding, no shaking overcrowded hives, and limited visitation for medication and such. I don't remember the frame count requirement, but it was high enough to cause problems if you couldn't care for your bees. Good money (about $40) but you would probably lose significant dollars to swarming or starvation if you brought them good bees. Interestingly, last year they offered a two-year contract as well. Now it's up for bidding again after one year. Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:45:10 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: bee size Does anyone know whether someone has tried to breed bees selecting for larger size? It seems to me that there might be numerous advantages this would confer: the bees could carry larger nectar and pollen and water loads; they might be able to "buzz" pollinate blueberry blossom (maybe cranberry too, I don't know if bumblebees do that in cranberry); they might be able to fly at lower temperature since their surface to volume ratio would decrease; and they might even be more prone to chewing up varroa mites as their larger distant relatives the bumblebees apparently do. In cows and pigs size is a characteristic that responds very quickly to selection. If I were going to breed for a larger bee, I would increase cell size in foundation slightly and see if any hives responded to this challenge {not such a big increase as to make them build drone comb). It would be interesting to see if the bees would increase their cell size instinct as their body size increased. I think that the bees probably measure cell size and bee space size in relation to their body, much as the queen uses her mandibles as calipers, but that is not necessarily the case. Perhaps size and measurement are of such fundamental importance to bees that breeding a larger bee would be extremely difficult. I would be most interested in information on this. Have a nice day. Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:30:52 GMT+2 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Allsopp Organization: N.I.P.B VREDENBURG Subject: bee size Greetings all Stan Sandler asked about breeding bigger & better bees: > > Does anyone know whether someone has tried to breed bees selecting for > larger size? It seems to me that there might be numerous advantages this > would confer: > the bees could carry larger nectar and pollen and water loads; they might > be able to "buzz" pollinate blueberry blossom (maybe cranberry too, I don't > know if bumblebees do that in cranberry); they might be able to fly at > lower temperature since their surface to volume ratio would decrease; and > they might even be more prone to chewing up varroa mites as their larger > distant relatives the bumblebees apparently do. > The person to consult in this is probably Professor Jerzy Woyke of Poland; it has been an interest of his for some while and he presented a paper on precisely this theme at the Apimondia conference at Lausanne. Regards Mike Mike Allsopp Honeybee Research Unit Tel: 021-8874690 Plant Protection Research Institute Fax: 021-8833285 Agricultural Research Council Internet: vredma@plant3.agric.za Private Bag X5017, Stellenbosch, Pmail: plant3/vredma 7599, South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:16:44 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MARTIN SOLAN ZOO DEPT Subject: Honeycombs Hi there, This is my first time sending a message over the net. Could anyone e-mail personally regarding information on where I could purchase plastic (or similar) honeycombs. I assume I can buy artificial ones, is this correct? I am located in Ireland at the moment but any supplier worldwide would be of interest. I am afraid I can only read e-mail so cannot use a browser and would appreciate any message e-mailed to me personally at martin.solan@ucg.ie Thanks in advance for your help, Mart. ************************************************************************** Martin Solan, * Tel: +353 91 524411 Ext. 3194 Zoology Department, * Fax: +353 91 525005 Martin Ryan Marine Institute, * University College, Galway, * martin.solan@ucg.ie Ireland. * ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:43:06 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: bee size and altimeters In-Reply-To: <13472C505AE@plant3.agric.za> from "Mike Allsopp" at Apr 11, 96 08:30:52 am Bee size varies with comb cell size. Erik Erickson, Tucson, published a paper on the different sizes used by different makers of foundation. Also, old comb tends to be smaller as the bees re-line and re-use the cells - until such time as the bees tear down and rebuild. Years ago, we used a front entrance pollen trap that proved to us just how variable body size was. We ended up using two traps, fitting the traps to the size of the bees. Curiously, last summer, bees that fit through a plastic pollen grid in Montana couldn't get through the same grids 4 days later after moving them to Maryland. The drop in elevation affected our instrumentation, but we sure didn't expect the change in location to affect the ability of bees to squirm through a hole. Do bees swell (like a person's feet after a long plane flight??) As per altimeter, the late Roy Thurber used to go to a wrecking yard for airplanes. He got really good altimeters for little cost - seems you can't re-install an altimeter in a plane, if the original plane crashed. Bit on the large size, but he mounted his in his truck. Roy reasoned that he might worry about the accuracy in a plane, but doubted that he was going to drive into a mountain in his truck. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees P.S. Lots of people ask for bee pictures. We have some on our web page under the section describing our research team - just click on the picture of the bee. We will add more shortly, especially pictures of individual bees on a variety of flowers. Check the site next week. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: CORDOVAN lots of talk lately about cordovan bees. other than the obvious color differences, are there any other reasons why one would want them? more honey, gentler, disease resistant, talk in 3 languages, etc? thanks, john ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:38:13 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Good Swarm Bait Hives? Hi Everyone! I am interested in building some good bait boxes to attract swarms. My church has bees living inside the bell tower. This colony has been there for about 20 years and appears to be quite vigorous even though no one cares for it. We have both varroa and tracheal mites here. Every April and May these bees swarm repeatedly. I would like to catch one or more of the swarms to see if perhaps they could be mite resistant. After looking in several of my books, a plywood bait box about the size of a deep super, with a sealed top and bottom, and a 1 inch hole in one end would seem good. I have never used bait hives and would like very much to hear your experiences with them! Kris Bruland Member of Mt. Baker Beekepers Association Bellingham, WA U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:12:20 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney -- Dept. of Agriculture" Subject: Re: Hawaii's mite-free status Comments: To: Nick Wallingford In-Reply-To: <199604072221.KAA16071@Axil.wave.co.nz> On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Nick Wallingford wrote: > Does Hawaii have Kashmir bee virus or mites? No one *really* knows, > as no one has ever systematically looked. With the small geographic > size and relatively small number of hives involved, a survey to > determine pest/disease status for Hawaii would be a simple thing to > undertake. Until the Hawaiian beekeepers are willing to do that > there can be no *confidence* in the claims of area freedom. Hawaii > is not willing to take 'the test', but wants the world to believe > that it is 'clean'. Again, the confidence is a statistically based > thing, not just individual reports of 'nothing found' - the > methodology must stand scrutiny! > Nick Wallingford > President - Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ (\ > home nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- > work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz (/ For the record, while a survey for honey bee viruses has never been undertaken in Hawaii, the Hawaii Department of Agriculture has been sampling honey bees in Hawaii for tracheal mite since 1984 and for varroa mite since 1988, i.e., since shortly after each parasite was discovered on the U.S. mainland. Neither mite has ever been found in Hawaii. As far as we know (and no one can be absolutely certain), Hawaii remains mite-free, although the state's virus status remains an open question. Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture Plant Pest Control Branch culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:51:31 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Self Introduction & cluster racks? In-Reply-To: <9604110232.AA03110@castles.com> On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Jeffrey R. Tooker wrote: > I am still working in the San Francisco Bay Area so I only get up to my > place two or three times a month. This means I will have to do some > extra planning about the things I do with the bees I hope to have up > there soon. There was a discussion about this problem a year or so back. If I remember correctly, one suggestion was to put a super of empty frames (I presume minus foundation) _under_ thre brood boxes. I was thinking when reading those recent posts, that maybe the above idea is what the recently queried 'cluster rack' is all about. Thoughts? Regards, Gordon. -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:25:44 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Q: Frame order and repostion when inspecting In-Reply-To: <9604101801.AA03378@us4rmc.pko.dec.com> On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Jim Moore wrote: > This is a real beginner question. When inspecting a > hive, assuming 10 fames, designated 1-10 with oreintation <, > what is the proper procedure and are there any hints to make > it easier to get it right? There are many *right* ways :-) This is an area where a follower/dummy board D can help. Beginning config: D 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Remove D and then 1, 2, 3, ... 9 then replace the D at the other end, finishing with... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 D Next inspection, remove D, then 9, 8, 7, 6, .... 1 Finishing as we started with... D 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 No combs get left outside the box to cool during the inspection. The brood nest order is not disturbed. Also, if you're only quick-checking for eggs, swarming, etc., you could stop partway through once you're satisfied all's well and push the remaining frames along en-masse -- you'll start at the other end next time so you'll be sure to check all frames within two inspections. Note: If you stop part way there is *always* a risk you could be unlucky and get a swarm cell on an unchecked frame -- value judgement time. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:42:08 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: bee size and altimeters In-Reply-To: <199604111443.IAA02808@selway.umt.edu> On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > Bee size varies with comb cell size. Erik Erickson, Tucson, published a > paper on the different sizes used by different makers of foundation. > Also, old comb tends to be smaller as the bees re-line and re-use the > cells - until such time as the bees tear down and rebuild. I tried using some of that big-celled foundation once -- got lots of big bees but they didn't seem to be any good :-) > P.S. Lots of people ask for bee pictures. We have some on our web page > ..... I'm *gradually* collecting vintage/historic beekeeping pictures -- engravings and so on, would they be useful? I'd quite like them to be publicly available somewhere. (I'm on a dialup link). Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:15:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Good Swarm Bait Hives? A few years ago I built some of the plywood type you mentioned, cubical, like the ones used in Cornell's research on bee home-site preferences. These were mounted 15-20 feet up on tree trunks and did get alot of attention from swarm scouts. Unfortunately they seemed even more attractive to squirrels who'd gnawed the hole til it was big enough for their entrance/exit and fill box up with nesting material. Since then I have had good success with old drafty hive bodies containing 2-4 old frames with reject combs. I set them up about 10+ feet if I can, entrance facing south or east. Bees seem to like them if they are exposed but under a shady branch. For a lid I often use a scrap of plywood which is longer than the hive so it overhangs the entrance by 4-8". For a floor I use an old bottom board, inner cover, or again a scrap of plywood. You can drill a hole for an entrance or raise the box off the floor 3/8 " or so with cleats making an entrance at one end. Bees are attracted to the scent of these old hive bodies, which according to the research are about the right volume to attract swarms. (16 1/4 x 20 x 9 5/8", maybe a bit bigger) If you make bait boxes out of cheap/scrap wood, by all means construct them so they can hold standard frames, even if you have to stand them up somehow. Then when you do get a swarm you can just transfer them to a good hive, or at least be able to pull out a couple of combs to search for the queen. Then you can run her in to the new hive and you'll be sure of her whereabouts. If new wood you can rub melted old brood comb/propolis around the interior of the box to spread the pheromones around as well. Then just check the bait boxes weekly. I've had to empty one three times during one season - the swarms just kept coming! Locations? Try top of a shed, carport, tree house, ledge, whatever, preferably sheltered & up off the ground. [If you end up transferring some crappy combs from the swarm box to the new hive, you can keep these over to one side of the hive. Then after the bees have taken possesssion of the good quality combs you can replace the bad ones in a few weeks.] Just be SURE inside of box stays dark and dry, otherwise they'll pass it up. Best success for me has been locations at edges of wooded areas. It's quite a sight when you happen to arrive as a swarm drops out of the sky to take over your hive! Hope this helps -- Good luck. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:28:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Terramycin Patties REGARDING RE>Terramycin Patties Charles (Rick) Grubbs writes: "I have three active hives that I gave terramycin patties about a month ago. They have show little intrest in it and most of it still remains. My question is, is this the best method for treating for foul brood, or is dusting with terramycin mixed with powdered surgar a better method? I know that the crisco in the patties is used to help control trachel mites, but this can be accomplished by just using powdered sugar and crisco as an extender patty, and can be used at anytime, whereas the terramycin should be removed 6 weeks before a honey flow." It is perfectly normal for the terramycin patties to remain in the hive for a long time. The bees don't feed on it actively, but mainly consider it a hive contaminant to be removed. As they try to remove it they break up the fatty mass and end up consuming just enough to be effective. I have used it for about five years, and since doing so have never been bothered by either foulbrood (AFB or EFB) or tracheal mites. I usually place about three to four ice cream scoops of Terrapatty (the commercial mix) between hive bodies in the early spring and then just after removal of honey supers in late summer (Southeastern Michigan). And I don't worry about it again! On the other hand, I've had poor success with terramycin in powdered sugar dusting, as well as with syrup feeding. The main problem is that the material must be totally consumed rather rapidly, and if not the medication is basically wasted. With the patties, it doesn't matter how fast the stuff is taken. -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ABBY Subject: Busy Season When do bees start appearing and when is the worst part of the year for them, I live in Missouri. Thanx. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: No Brood in nuc Hi All, I started a nuc three weeks ago with a frame that had a queen cell on it and four brood frames with honey and pollen. I looked in about a week later and it looked like the queen had hatched. Today I looked in there and there are lots of bees but only a little tiny bit of sort of old looking brood. I looked very carefully for the queen and couldn't find one. What do you think? Should I order another queen or try to combine it with another hive? Or is it possible that the queen is small and I couldn't find her? If this is the case then why hasn't she laid any eggs yet? Thanks for any help. Mary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:09:54 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jay Jones Subject: pesticides in honey - Methods Comments: cc: laruet@ULVACS.ULAVERNE.EDU We are looking seeking methods for pesticide analysis of honey. We have GC-MS and HPLC available. Any information that can be provided will be greatly appreciated. Please send replies directly to jonesj@ulvacs.ulavenre.edu. With thanks and best wishes to the list, **************************************************************************** Jay H. Jones Internet: jonesj@ulvacs.ulaverne.edu Assoc. Prof. Biology and Biochemistry Biology Dept. University of La Verne 909 593-3511 x4040 office La Verne, CA 91750 909 593-3511 x4604 lab **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... > >Thanks David. Wow - what I still can't fathom is how much work it would be >to go through a couple thousand hives and find the queens to clip them. >You must figure that it's cost-efficient, as you are running commercial. >But - Don't you find that you lose swarms anyway, with virgins, leaving >colonies weakened for the honey flow? Maybe I'm missing the point - I was >under the impression that even if the swarm returns to the parent because >the queen can't fly, they will abscond as soon as a new queen emerges from >a swarm cell. Have you had this happen? and will the clipped queen remain >in the hive and begin laying again after a swarm emerges? > >BTW just read "Queens-Land" about queen production in Australia which was >very interesting. >Thanks for any info. Joel > Hi Joel; All queens are mated in mating yards away from the production hives, and tested in nucs to observe their laying pattten, when the queen is caged for transport to the production hives in banks of two to three hundred queens all these queen are clipped , therefore totally reducing there swarming ability. The only time spent in the production areas is to find the old queen, before introducing the new queen, Today I broke up a three deck hive, and in the brood chamber , the first frame I with drew, there was the queen, other of course can take much longer, even to the extent of setting up a new box on the old site with new frames with some brood frames, and brush all bees off the frames into a box above with the queen excluder between the two, as the bees (workers) go below locate the queen and destroy.Then place the brood in the upper box and introduce the new queen into the brood box, I use the smoker and allow the new queen to run of my hand through the main entrance. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:36:43 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Mobile Extraction >Hi David always enjoy your posts. Could you refer me to magazine article >about mobile extraction. I would >like to see how others have set up. >Walter > >Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 > Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii > >Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii > > http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm >http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm > http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm > Hi Walter; Thanks for the complement, have you seen my home page yet? The URL is below in my signature. Anyway, thanks also for your request, this information, below will appear in my home page, in due cause. The Mobile Outfit The mobile outfit is perhaps the most popular with migratory beekeepers and a well-constructed bee-proof trailer is convenient and efficent. The mobile outfit has the advantage of having all the extracting equipment in a compact unit which can be moved into an apiary and made ready for extraction with a minimum of time and effort. When using a mobile outfit the procedure is to draw into an apiary and after levelling the trailer and lighting the boiler, commence taking off the honey. As the combs are extracted they are replaced and others are brought in. Where disease has been located previously in an apairy it is advisable (until it is certain that infected material is no longer present) to replace the combs on the hives from which they were taken. Combs containing a small amount of sealed brood may be extracted without damage to the immature bees, provided reasonable care is taken and the combs are returned to the hives before the brood becomes chilled. When extracting, every care should be taken to ensure that the quality of the honey is not impaired in any way. The practice of extracting too much unripe honey may result in the honey being classed into a lower grade, thus bringing a reduced net return. To avoid any lowering in quality only those combs that are at least three parts capped should be removed. Frequently it has been noticed that insufficient attention is given to cleanliness in the extraction plant. Very often the extractor and honey tank contain an excessive amount of scum and dead bees and do not appear to be cleaned out from the beginning to the end of the season. Galvanised iron honey tanks are found with heavy deposits of tannate of iron which has not been removed by regular washing. Stainless steel is the best. Variation in Design Some beekeepers perfer a two wheel trailer, with the extracter, honey pump, capping reducer, engine, boiler and honey tank mounted in it or with a boiler and honey tank placed outside. Others use four wheel trailers, set up as a divided caravan. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:29:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garrett Dodds Subject: Re: CORDOVAN >lots of talk lately about cordovan bees. Other than the obvious color >differences, are there any other reasons why one would want them? > >more honey, gentler, disease resistant, talk in 3 languages, etc? > >thanks, >john John, There is no difference between the cordovan bees and any other bee besides the obvious color difference. The only behavioral difference you'll see would depend upon the type of stock you received it from. Just like any other type of bee. Garrett ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:14:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: CORDOVAN JD>From: John Day >To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L >Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:11:26 -0700 >Subject: Re: CORDOVAN JD>lots of talk lately about cordovan bees. other than the obvious color >differences, are there any other reasons why one would want them? JD>more honey, gentler, disease resistant, talk in 3 languages, etc? Hi John, NO, in my experience they are not any more productive, and could be less in some cases. Pure Cordovan colored bee's are attractive in display hives, on white combs, and are lot's of fun to spot out in the field on the flowers. A Cordovan worker full of nectar is a splendid sight with natural background light they "appear" several sizes bigger then regular workers and are very translucent, almost red colored. A real nectar tanker.. Drone eye colors come in many different colors. Laidlaw at UC Davis had a lot of fun with these genetic variabilities, and several of the queen breeder's in the Davis area sold queens with a small percentage of these drone's in their commercial stock. One queen breeder in Arizona, Jim Smith, also used some of the Laidlaw stock and we always's had a few queens from him that produced drones with different eye colors. Several of the colors can be found naturally from time to time in ordinary stock. I also found another mutation that was interesting for awhile. All the drones were hairless. I thought for a time I had a new stain of a virus that also causes worker bee's to lose or eat the hair off of each other, but in this case it was a genetic thing as I watched the drones hatch out and they were born with no hair, all looked like old worn out drones from day one. A question that really has not been answered about eye colors is are the drone's blind and what other traits do they have or not have. I investigated this in my own hives and found that the light colored to yellow eyed drones do not seem to drift from hive to hive. So it could be that once they leave they are lost or just really good at finding their way back to the right hive. I suspect they are lost and fly until they find a queen or run out of gas. The darker colors seem to drift from hive to hive and because they are more common in natural stock, I would suspect they can navigate as well as any drone and are more successful in mating and more common to find in x number of hives. We also have had worker bees with drone size eyes that were not easy to tell what cast they were on first blush. Also have seen a hive that produced workers in the drone brood. In the olden days of portable honey houses we uncapped with a steam heated knife. The uncapper had the job of killing the drone brood, which was just something to brake up the boredom of the uncapping job. One day I uncapped several drone combs of sealed brood, and was I surprised to find that they were not drones but normal worker brood. Some will wonder why would you find brood in the honey house, but in the days of portable extractors we would move from yard to yard and most of our hives at the time here in Central California were kept crowded down in doubles. Maybe it was something left over from the comb honey days I don't know, or maybe it was because we had so much equipment tied up in swarms, or could be from moving bee's by hand you were not looking to load a lot of tall hives by yourself. Take your pick, anyway we would extract all the honey out of the supers that at times had a few patches of sealed brood, maybe 5-10%. We would uncap the honey cells around the brood and extract the honey. Then we would put the brood back on the smaller hives. This was one way of keeping the hives equal in strength and worked well as we did well averaging 100# of honey over 20 years and sometimes averaging 60# per extracting. Good money at ten cents a pound, except for the best water white sage which brought in a premium price of fifteen cents a pound. We all could live well and buy new pick me up trucks every year. All this is pure observation and not based on research, but I am sure much work has been done on the subject. ttul, OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... The bee, dost thou forget? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:11:39 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Honeycombs At 02:16 PM 4/11/96 +0000, you wrote: >Hi there, > >This is my first time sending a message over the net. Could anyone e-mail >personally regarding information on where I could purchase plastic (or similar) >honeycombs. I assume I can buy artificial ones, is this correct? I am located >in Ireland at the moment but any supplier worldwide would be of interest. > >I am afraid I can only read e-mail so cannot use a browser and would appreciate >any message e-mailed to me personally at martin.solan@ucg.ie > >Thanks in advance for your help, > >Mart. > > >************************************************************************** >Martin Solan, * Tel: +353 91 524411 Ext. 3194 >Zoology Department, * Fax: +353 91 525005 >Martin Ryan Marine Institute, * >University College, Galway, * martin.solan@ucg.ie >Ireland. * >************************************************************************** > >Martin: You might e-mail this fellow he is in the U.K. and much closer than we are in the States. He seems to be a helpful person. Sid Pullinger Best of luck. J.R. Tooker P.S. Sid please excuse me for making reference to you without asking first. JRT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:54:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Honeycombs Hi, I would like to annouce my Beekeeping page to Bee-l. It is a first attempt at authoring and I need some feedback on performance of my server and am curious how the page looks from other browsers than netscape 2.0. It is linked to the Plant Protection Research Page my official worksite page which we are just completing and will be soon anouncing. It is on Traditional beekeeping from my experiences in Tunisia. HTTP://www.ppru.cornell.edu/source/Beekeeping.html. Thanx in advance for your comments .-~~~-. / } / .-~ \ | } \.~~-.-~| . -~_ / \./ \/\ { O | ` .-~. ; ~-.__ __{^\_ _}_ ) }/^\ ~--~/-|_\| : : .-~ / /\_/^\._}_/ // / / | \~ - - ~ ( (__{(@)}\__}.//_/_____/_____|____\_______________ \__/{/(_)\_} )\\ \\--------------------------------- ( (__)_)_/ )\ \> Mike Griggs mhg@cornell.edu \__/\__/ Entomologist/Support Scientist HTTP://www.ppru.cornell.edu/biocontrol/griggs.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re-If you read my last post REGARDING Re:If you read my last post you know that I am hobbiest... Jeffrey Tooker writes: "I want to start with a nuc (four frame from a reputable supply house) in a brood chamber with nine or ten full sized frames. I am starting clean this month and do not plan to take any honey untill next year. I would like information on when and how to start treatment for brood diseases and mites?" I believe the sooner the better. Don't let mites get a head start at all. Therefore, as soon as the nuc is hived, I would place a couple Apistan strips at the center of the cluster area, and put a 1/2 lb patty of Terrapatty (or make up a Crisco/sugar/terramycin batch yourself) on the top bars. Apistan will help control varroa and the patty will control AFB, EFB and tracheal mites. Leave the strips in 45 days, but leave the patty in all year (and replace when necessary) if you don't plan to harvest honey this year. In late August - early September, put Apistan strips in again for 45 days, then remove. Then if you feed Fumadil in 1:1 syrup in early fall, your bees should be healthy and raring to go a year from now. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:01:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re-No Brood in nuc REGARDING Re:No Brood in nuc Mary Sellhorn writes: "I started a nuc three weeks ago with a frame that had a queen cell on it and four brood frames with honey and pollen. I looked in about a week later and it looked like the queen had hatched. Today I looked in there and there are lots of bees but only a little tiny bit of sort of old looking brood. I looked very carefully for the queen and couldn't find one. What do you think? Should I order another queen or try to combine it with another hive? Or is it possible that the queen is small and I couldn't find her? If this is the case then why hasn't she laid any eggs yet?" It looks like the queen has been lost, very likely on a mating flight. It's sort of late to order another queen for this nuc - they may well not accept her. It would be better, in my opinion, to recombine this nuc with another hive, then order a queen for a new split made up with younger brood and young bees. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morty Lipton Subject: Proper dosage for Tetra Brood Mix/ Tetramix Would somebody with experience please advise me re the proper dosage etc for the mixture of sugar,soy & terramycin...Thanks Much Morty Lipton Southampton,PA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: To Clip or Not To Clip... Thanks for the further description of your operation. So the queens are clipped pre- introduction to production units - that makes more sense than the scenario I had imagined. I had read of British commercial guys (not operating near the scale you are) going through every colony in the spring and clipping. It would be ideal to supply a new (clipped) queen at the beginning of the season as you do; the presence of a new queen is known to be a big hedge against any swarming anyway. Small beekeepers like me tend to let a queen go on for a couple of years or more, and they are sure to want to swarm that way! It must be nice when you can find the queen on the first try -- BTW, if the colony is exceptional do you ever save the older queen for possible breeding, or let her continue in production colony, or is she destroyed anyway due to age? Thanks, JWG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:52:49 CST6CDT Reply-To: bwhite@mda-is.mda.state.mn.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BLANE WHITE Organization: Minnesota Dept of Agriculture Subject: Re: Hawaii's mite-free status Tom, Please corect me if I am wrong but it appears from your posting that you have been sampling for varroa and tracheal mites but have not untaken a statewide survey. You have been sampling your queen producers and maybe the area near them but what about the rest of the state. In the fall of 1988 we did a statewide survey for varroa where we sampled some bees from nearly every beekeeper in MN (about 950 at the time) and found varroa in two small areas of the state. My guess is that you are looking at fewer beekeepers and much less area than we have so a reasonable survey would not be too big an undertaking. Some of us in watching the transshipment issue really wonder what you are basing your claims of freedom from mites and diseases on and have not been able to find any information on any surveys you have done. Without such survey information it really appears that your opposition to the transshipment of bees is to protect your beekeeper's market rather than any real fear of introduction of new disease. Conduct the surveys and then more of us may be willing to stand with you if there is a reasonable disease concern on the issue. blane ****************************************** Blane White State Apiary Inspector Minnesota Department of Agriculture 90 W Plato Blvd St Paul, MN 55107 http://www.mda.state.mn.us ph 612-296-0591 fax 612-296-7386 bwhite@mda-is.mda.state.mn.us ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:11:00 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WINK HOWLAND Subject: Re: Honeycombs At 14:16 11/04/96 +0000, you wrote: >Hi there, > >This is my first time sending a message over the net. Could anyone e-mail >personally regarding information on where I could purchase plastic (or similar) >honeycombs. I assume I can buy artificial ones, is this correct? I am located >in Ireland at the moment but any supplier worldwide would be of interest. > >I am afraid I can only read e-mail so cannot use a browser and would appreciate >any message e-mailed to me personally at martin.solan@ucg.ie > >Thanks in advance for your help, > >Mart. >Canadian Distributor of " Pierco", one piece plastic frame and foundation, is TLPR HONEY, RR#1, Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada. T7Z 1X1 Phone:(403)963-7579. I have no personal experience with these but they are widely advertised. >************************************************************************** >Martin Solan, * Tel: +353 91 524411 Ext. 3194 >Zoology Department, * Fax: +353 91 525005 >Martin Ryan Marine Institute, * >University College, Galway, * martin.solan@ucg.ie >Ireland. * >************************************************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:41:00 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Lipari I am not actually a beekeeper but my cousin, who lives in the countryside, is. As he hasn't got an e_mail address, I've subscribed to this list for him. I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina and my mother language is Spanish. Is there anyone in this list who speaks Spanish? I would also appreciate if someone could tell me which the best way to prevent bees from dying because of varroa is. Regards from Argentina, Walter D. Lipari ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:11:22 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Wout <102336.711@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Beautiful Bees This past week I visited a beekeeper and he was packaging the brightest yellow colored bees I have ever seen. They appeared to be Italians but had very little black on them. Their yellow color was bright and beautiful. I inquired where he got them and he said he bought them from a supplier in Mississippi. He couldn't or wouldn't tell me who the supplier is. I'm interested in getting some of these bees next season. Does anyone out there know of a source for bright yellow bees from Mississippi? Does anyone have experience with bees like these? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:26:13 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney -- Dept. of Agriculture" Subject: Re: Hawaii's mite-free status Comments: To: BLANE WHITE In-Reply-To: <210C14346D0@mda-is.mda.state.mn.us> On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, BLANE WHITE wrote: > Tom, > Please corect me if I am wrong but it appears from your posting that > you have been sampling for varroa and tracheal mites but have not > untaken a statewide survey. You have been sampling your queen > producers and maybe the area near them but what about the rest of the > state... > My guess is that you are looking at fewer beekeepers and much less > area than we have so a reasonable survey would not be too big an > undertaking. Some of us in watching the transshipment issue really > wonder what you are basing your claims of freedom from mites and > diseases on and have not been able to find any information on any > surveys you have done. Without such survey information it really > appears that your opposition to the transshipment of bees is to > protect your beekeeper's market rather than any real fear of > introduction of new disease. Conduct the surveys and then more of us > may be willing to stand with you if there is a reasonable disease > concern on the issue. > blane > > ****************************************** > Blane White > State Apiary Inspector > Minnesota Department of Agriculture > 90 W Plato Blvd > St Paul, MN 55107 > http://www.mda.state.mn.us > > > ph 612-296-0591 > fax 612-296-7386 > > bwhite@mda-is.mda.state.mn.us > ******************************************** > Again, for the record, the Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture collects samples of honey bees from all islands on which there is a significant beekeeper presence. This excludes the islands of Niihau, Lanai, and Kahoolawe. In an effort to correct a misapprehension that may be floating around out there in the beekeeping world, the following disclaimer is posted: The opinions (and unfounded suspicions) of individual Hawaii beekeepers do not necessarily reflect the views of the Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture. HDOA has never questioned the competency or integrity of New Zealand's MAF and its apiary inspection program. An acceptable transshipment protocol has been worked out between the two agencies that satisfies the biosanitary and quarantine concerns of both. For a second season, NZ package bees have passed through Honolulu International Airport without a problem. We continue to monitor the shipments, but are quite satisfied with the way things are going. Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture Plant Pest Control Branch culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:42:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Jentner queen raising/nucs Does anyone have experience using this system that could give me some pointers? Also, any recommendations on books for building, using, etc nucs? I am especially interested in baby/micro nucs. Contemporary Queen Rearing is not detailed enough. Thanks!!! God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:58:07 CST6CDT Reply-To: Bajema@dordt.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Duane H. Bajema" Organization: Dordt College Subject: Flowers that DO NOT attract bees A person came to me with the problem that they are allergic to bee stings. They would very much like to have a flower garden but want to avoid those flowers that attract bees. I was able to provide some examples, but is there a source that provides more comprehensive information that I can give that lists flowers that attract and do not attract bees? IF you want to respond directly, the person's e-mail address for a direct response is: Wayne Feeleus ------------------------------------------------------------ Duane H. Bajema e-mail bajema@dordt.edu Agriculture Department 712/722-6275 office Dordt College 712/722-1198 FAX Sioux Center, IA 51250 ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:22:32 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Apistran Strips - Duration? Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu I have heard conflicting reports as to how long to leave strips in the hives. Some say 30-45 days, some say 60 (and no more). I think that the label states 59(?) days [I don't have a label in front of me so DON'T take that as any direction.] If the mites life cycle is approximately the same as worker brood (21 days). [I think I read that somewhere], then leaving strips in the hive for 30-45 days would kill 1-2 generations of female mites leaving the cells, 60 days would kill 3 generations. This does not consider those freeranging mites that are coming into the hive from outdoors. I have heard of different Apistran strategies: Some state place apistran in the spring for 60 days prior to supering and again for 60 days after harvest. Some state place apistran only once, on July 1, then remove on 1 Aug and place supers for fall flow [Approximately 30 days]. Some state place apistran once, for 60 days beginning the middle of August. Ok, folks. What is the story here? What strategies have worked for you. My own experience in Dayton, OH has been that if I wait until September to treat, its too late -- the bees are goners unless something else happens. Last year I placed strips into my two hives on Aug 6 and left them for 60 days last fall and then again on Feb 6 and removed them 49 days later. So far both hives came through strong, healthy and ready to go. This is the first time I have successfully overwintered my hives after 4 years of trying. Pulled drone brood revealed no mites to date. So I am trying to scope out my plan for this year. I don't like putting strips in at all, but must. Howeer I would like to minimize their use as much as possible. Would a stragegy of placing strips from between nectar flows for a period of 30 days provide enough coverage to protect the bees? Mark Egloff MEGLOFF@CSC.COM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:10:23 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: RE-Apistran Strips - Durati REGARDING RE:Apistran Strips - Duration? Mark Egloff writes: "I have heard of different Apistran strategies: Some state place apistran in the spring for 60 days prior to supering and again for 60 days after harvest. Some state place apistran only once, on July 1, then remove on 1 Aug and place supers for fall flow [Approximately 30 days]. Some state place apistran once, for 60 days beginning the middle of August. Ok, folks. What is the story here? What strategies have worked for you. My own experience in Dayton, OH has been that if I wait until September to treat, its too late -- the bees are goners unless something else happens." I think that part of the problem is that different sections of the country experience honey flows at different times. I can only speak from experience here in southeastern Michigan (USA). Wherever possible, I try to keep the strips on for 45 days, because the miticide will weaken signicantly after that, possibly stimulating development of resistant strains of mites. I put the strips on in spring, giving up the spring flow, and in late summer, giving up the fall flow. Usually our major honey flow here occurs between these periods. However, if your major flow is at another time, you would just have to remove supers, put on the strips for 45 days before that flow, then put the supers back on. Seems like a lot of work, but it may be necessary to save the colonies. As to minimum time, 30 days should be OK. It will hit one cycle of mites with maximum strength, and if you can get another period of 45 days at some time in the year, you ought to be able to control them. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:23:33 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: Re: Beautiful Bees There are only two or three suppliers of queens in Mississippi. It sounds like the beekeeper you visited has the " golden red heads ", which are acutally cordovan bees. Dean Breaux sells them as cordovans, because that is all they are. Just look in the ABJ for who ever sells the golden red head and 674 strain of Italians if you want the bees from Mississippi. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:50:25 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Jentner queen raising/nucs In a message dated 96-04-12 15:42:36 EDT, you write: >Does anyone have experience using this system that could give me some >pointers? > >Also, any recommendations on books for building, using, etc nucs? I am >especially interested in baby/micro nucs. Contemporary Queen Rearing is not >detailed enough. > > Kelly you only live about one hour north of us here at Hybri-Bees. So why don't you just come on down here and we can show you all you need to know about raising Queens. I have one of those Jentner kits and........ well lets just say it is a lot faster to just graft. We are always glad to help other beekeepers raise their own queens and would be happy to help any way we can. Visitors are always welcome at HBI. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees "Breeding Better Bees" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:23:55 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Re-If you read my last post At 08:50 AM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: > REGARDING Re:If you read my last post you know that I am >hobbiest... > >Jeffrey Tooker writes: >"I want to start with a nuc (four frame from a reputable supply house) in >a brood chamber with nine or ten full sized frames. I am starting clean >this month and do not plan to take any honey untill next year. > >I would like information on when and how to start treatment for brood >diseases and mites?" > >I believe the sooner the better. Don't let mites get a head start at all. >Therefore, as soon as the nuc is hived, I would place a couple Apistan strips >at the center of the cluster area, and put a 1/2 lb patty of Terrapatty (or >make up a Crisco/sugar/terramycin batch yourself) on the top bars. Apistan >will help control varroa and the patty will control AFB, EFB and tracheal >mites. Leave the strips in 45 days, but leave the patty in all year (and >replace when necessary) if you don't plan to harvest honey this year. In late >August - early September, put Apistan strips in again for 45 days, then >remove. Then if you feed Fumadil in 1:1 syrup in early fall, your bees should >be healthy and raring to go a year from now. > >Ted Fischer > Ted thank you for your very informative reply. I will file it under both Mites and Diseases. Just one more question. What controls the Vmites when the strips are not in? Thank You Jeffrey Tooker > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:03:16 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Beautiful Bees At 05:23 PM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >There are only two or three suppliers of queens in Mississippi. It sounds >like the beekeeper you visited has the " golden red heads ", which are >acutally cordovan bees. Dean Breaux sells them as cordovans, because that is >all they are. Just look in the ABJ for who ever sells the golden red head >and 674 strain of Italians if you want the bees from Mississippi. > > > > Joe > Hello Joe and all others: I am sort of up to speed on the races of bees(from the web page). Now can someone explain strains of a race i.e. Italians and the general pro's and con's of same? Thank You JRT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Franklin Humphrey Subject: medication I have been following the discussions regarding medications. I have read some very good advice to the beginners on dosages and how to. However I do not think enough emphasis has been placed on when not to medicate. No medication should be on the hive when usable honey is being produced. NONE!!!!! I personally remove all medication 4 weeks prior to putting on supers that will be used to produce salable honey. I know that some medications can stay longer but I do it this way to be safe. Someone asked why not leave Apistan on for 60 days. The answer I have gotten in several instances is that Apistan starts to weaken at some point but it will remain at full strength for a full 45 days. If it is left on and becomes weak, the mites could become tolerant to it. If they become tolerant, they will soon become immune and it will no longer kill them. So a good rule to follow is to remove Apistain among 40 to 45 days. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:39:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Franklin Humphrey Subject: Re: Jentner queen raising/nucs Last year I purchased a Jentner queen rearing kit. I followed the directions and produced some beautiful and productive queens. I suppose that if you are experienced at grafting , it would be faster and maybe better. However my hands are not steady enough to graft so I decided to try this. It worked very well indeed. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:14:00 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Haehnle/Keppler Subject: package-bees Hi-all! Question: Is it nessesury that package-bees have a full developt queen with it. Would it be possible to send them just with a piece of open brut? Horizonticly fixt in the package-box? Or is it thinkeble to offer the pachage-bees just a piece of foam material enriched with the smell of a queen? I think this bees could be used to strengthen a small colony in spring without the cost of a queen, or the queen could be added somewhere else. Any experience and answers? Thanks at all. andreas haehnle ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:14:45 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: Re: Beautiful Bees Dear JRT, Italians are the most widely used of all the strains. They are just an all around a good bee. Carniolans are a dark colored bee known for their gentleness and sensitivity to climate conditions. Caucasians are also a dark bee known for being very genlte and generous with propolis. Buckfast bees are known for their "resistance" to mites. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: No Subject In a message dated 96-04-12 14:22:58 EDT, you write: >From: lipariw@TELEFONICA.COM.AR (Walter Lipari) >Sender: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Discussion of Bee Biology) >Reply-to: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Discussion of Bee Biology) >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Multiple recipients of list BEE-L) > > I am not actually a beekeeper but my cousin, who lives in the countryside, >is. As he hasn't got an e_mail address, I've subscribed to this list for him. > I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina and my mother language is Spanish. Is >there anyone in this list who speaks Spanish? > I would also appreciate if someone could tell me which the best way to >prevent bees from dying because of varroa is. >Regards from Argentina, > Walter D. Lipari Hola, hablo un poquito. Aqui usamos una pesticida, Apistan. Se puede comprar a Dadant & Sons, 51 S. 2nd St, Hamilton, Illinois, 62341 USA (Telefono: 217-847-3324). Es usado dos veces el ano, cuando no hay miel veniendo a las culmenas. No se nada de la ley de pesticidas in Argentina. Mejor telefonar el ministerio de agricutura, o qualquier es el nombre, para preguntar las recommendaciones y la ley. En Europa y Canada hay un otro: "formic acid", pero no se usan aqui. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:05:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: EYE COLOR MUTATIONS >Does anyone have or know of anyone who has honeybee stock with eye color >mutations? > Hi Joe; The normal eye colour in bees is black, but occasionally drones with white eyes appear in a colony of black-eyed bees. The abdominal markings of the drones may also vary and other physical variations may appear. The black eyes, the white eyes and the abdominal markings are characters. The black eyes belong to the same morphological feature, eye colour, as white eyes, but the two eye colours develop in opposing directions and are spoken of as contrasting characters. Black eyes and yellow body colour are not contrasting characters; they belong to different morphological features. Characters may be tangible, discernible physical attributes, such as eye colours or they may be physiological and intangible in nataure, such as temper or oviposition rate. Characters are the end products of the development of the bee from germ cell to adult. Characters result from the action of the environment upon determing factors in the cells which were transmitted from the parents to the offspring in the germ cells. The factors are functionally discrete particles, also known as genes. The genes are located in the chromosomes, arranged one beside the other like beads on a string. Each gene occupies a particular position in a particular chromosome; this position is the gene locus. The mate of the chromosome has the same or similar genes at corresponding loci. The two genes of a particular locus of a chromosome pair are often called a gene pair. I hope this has answered you question on eye mutations, if you need any more information, please email. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:18:28 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JeanLouis Adant Organization: Le Relais BBS Subject: Spanish Hola Walter Lipari, >I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina and my mother language is >Spanish. Is there anyone in this list who speaks Spanish? Claro que si! Hablo frances pero me encanta hablar espaniol. Mi doctor es argentino y siempre hablamos espaniol. Jean-Louis Adant, quebecquense y tambien latino-americano (por ser un francofono de america) pero no canadiense. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 07:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Re: package-bees Haehnle/Keppler wrote: > > Hi-all! > Question: > Is it nessesury that package-bees have a full developt queen with it. Would it > be possible to send them just with a piece of open brut? Horizonticly fixt in > the package-box? Or is it thinkeble to offer the pachage-bees just a piece of > foam material enriched with the smell of a queen? I think this bees could be > used to strengthen a small colony in spring without the cost of a queen, or the > queen could be added somewhere else. > Any experience and answers? Thanks at all. > > andreas haehnle Most package suppliers offer booster packages for sale without queens. -- *************************** * Charles (Rick) Grubbs * * digital@avana.net * * Douglasville, Ga SE USA * *************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:32:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: package-bees >.Question: >Is it nessesury that package-bees have a full developt queen with it. Would it >be possible to send them just with a piece of open brut? Horizonticly fixt in >the package-box? Or is it thinkeble to offer the pachage-bees just a piece of >foam material enriched with the smell of a queen? I think this bees could be >used to strengthen a small colony in spring without the cost of a queen, or the >queen could be added somewhere else. >Any experience and answers? Thanks at all. It is hard to ship bees without a queen. The main reasons for this is without a Queen they tend not to cluster and run around alot. This makes it difficult for them to maintain their temperature and thus the bees experence high mortality. While a peice of comb with open brood may help it is illegal in some states to import Comb. Most of the large package bee supplers will sell you a booster package but depending on how long they take to arrive you may or may not receive bees in good shape. Most of the booster packages tend to be picked up or shipped with other packages containing Queens. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees Breeding Better Bees ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 06:59:17 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: V mites I am looking for information on the life cycle of V mites and also any information on substances which are attractants to V mites. I do not care in which stage of their life cycle it occurs. Thank You JRT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: V mites- attractants & trapping >I am looking for information on the life cycle of V mites and also >any information on substances which are attractants to V mites. I >do not care in which stage of their life cycle it occurs. Question: has it yet been determined what substance or substances are present in A. mellifera larvae that attract the mites to cells? Such a substance appears to be present in Apis cerana drone brood but not worker brood, as A.cerana workers are not attacked. It's been suggested that this substance X, is less abundant in A. m. worker brood than drone brood as well. What's the latest? Also, is it generally agreed that by supplying sheets of drone foundation, and removing the capped drone brood at regular intervals, one is actually selecting for mites which thrive on worker brood?? Is trapping in drone brood reliable for non-chemical control? Any thoughts/info appreciated. Regds, JWG ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:41:25 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Charles R. Johnson" Subject: bee evolution Looking for more info on findings of Dr. Tim Demko, re: ancient bee nests found during Morrison Research Initiative. Which came first: bees or flowers? Charles R. Johnson ID 1625010 Phone 663-6298 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:37:19 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: V. mites and attractants In-Reply-To: <9604131359.AA19970@castles.com> On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Jeffrey R. Tooker wrote: > I am looking for information on the life cycle of V mites and also > any information on substances which are attractants to V mites. I > do not care in which stage of their life cycle it occurs. For information on the life cycle of Varroa mites check out a publication put out by the Canadaian Association of Professional Apiculturists called 'Honey Bee Pests and Diseases'. A new edition is coming out later this spring, but you might be able to find an old edition in the mean time. I'm not sure who you can order copies from. Any other CAPA members know ? I have found two good papers on Varroa attractants. The first is the work of Le Conte et al. (1989) where they identified pheromones produced by drone larvae which attract Varroa mites. The second is by Kraus et al. (1994), and they found clove oil and cinnamon oil to be attractive to Varroa mites. If you need further information, consult the following references or contact me. LE CONTE, Y., G. ARNOLD, J. TROULILLER, C. MASSON, B. CHAPPE, and G. OURISSON (1989) Attraction of the parasitic mite Varroa to the drone larvae of honey bees by simple aliphatic esters. Science 245:638-639 KRAUS, B., H. KOENIGER, and S. FUCHS (1994) Screening of substances for their effect on Varroa jacobsoni : repellency, toxicity, and masking effects of etheral oils. Journal of Apicultural Research. 33(1):34-43 Cheers, Adony **************************************** *** Adony Melathopoulos **************** ***** Center for Pest Management ******* ******** Simon Fraser University ******* *********** Burnaby, British Coumbia *** ************** CANADA ****************** **************************************** 'All bees are looking for bargains in nature's supermarket' - Bernd Heinrich e-mail : melathop@sfu.ca tel : (604) 29 14 16 3 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:37:06 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: RE-Apistran Strips - RTFM > REGARDING RE:Apistran Strips - Duration? > > Mark Egloff writes: > "I have heard of different Apistran strategies: > Some state place apistran in the spring for 60 days prior to > supering and again for 60 days after harvest. Some state place > apistran only once, on July 1, then remove on 1 Aug and place > supers for fall flow [Approximately 30 days]. Some state place > apistran once, for 60 days beginning the middle of August. > > Ok, folks. What is the story here? What strategies have > worked > for you. > AFAIK it is *illegal* to use the stips in any other way than in the manner indicated on the label -- at least in hives producing honey for human food. I believe that in most developed countries there are strong penalties for abuse of pesticides. Apistan *is* a pesticide. There are many different ways that people do in fact use strips, but abuse will certainly lead to loss of registration or effectiveness. Those who read this list will know that this is a theme that keeps repeating here. Other than bona fide researchers, users should RTFM and try to stick to that. IMO, anyhow. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:39:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Captured Swarm Well I got my first swarm today. I had just finished installing 2 new packages of bees, and went back into the house and my neighbor came and told me that a swarm of bees had came out of a large oak tree on his property and landed on his childrens swing set. My son and I gathered all of our equipment and went over and captured the swarm in a cardboard box. I brought them back and put them in front of a new hive with foundation and opened the box and they just walked into the hive. It was the most exciting and gratifing thing I have ever witnessed. About 2 hours later he came and told me that another swarm about the same size as the first had came out of the tree and had went to the same place on the swing set, but turned around and went back into the tree. The first swarm was at least 5 pounds and he said that the second was at least as large as the first. Can I expect another swarm from them soon? I am running out of hive bodies and need to get another one made if so. Sorry if I have rambled, but like I said it was my first time to capture a swarm, and it has gotten me excited. -- *************************** * Charles (Rick) Grubbs * * digital@avana.net * * Douglasville, Ga SE USA * *************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:43:18 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eugene N. Dixon" Subject: Newbie report with Questions I've been lurking and learning, now I'm gingerly coming out of the shadows. Yesterday, my daughter informed me one of my two hives had swarmed. It was just last weekend I removed the Apistan and added supers. The swarm was about 40 feet up in a pine tree. A 32 foot ladder, a shop vacuum and a couple of 12 foot sections (it was salvage therefore the odd lengths) brought maybe 2/3 of the bees into my plastic bucket recieving chamber. When I got all I could, I took the recieving bucket into the basement to cool the bees and sprinkled sugar water on them. Back outside, the remaining bees re-entered the hive from which they swarmed. This all happened around noon here in the Central Savannah River Area of South Carolina. We're across the river from Augusta Georgia where the Masters is currently capturning national attention. Anyway about 5:30 PM, I took the recieving bucket out to the empty deep super I had set up. I pulled one frame of honey and pollen out of the hive that hadn't swarmed and one frame of honey and pollen from the parent hive. I then pulled a hive of brood from the parent hive and upon closer examination found an empty queen cell with several other queen cells. I was reluctant to place it in the new hive body until I realized I had no idea if the swarming queen had survived the vacuum trip. I put it in. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? What I learned: CPVC pipe in 24 - 30 foot sections is heavy. Next time I'll borrow some aluminum tubing from anybody with a swimming pool. Though I had made provisions to control the amount of suction, my vacuum operator was a young lad who had never before seen a swarm. The vacuum was not regulated. I killed about 1/3 of the bees during the suction operation. I neede a piece of foam in the bucket to soften the fall. I also had to use one section of "corrogated" vacuum tubing. There was a significant bee kill in this section of tubing. The bees tended to clog the 2 inch pipe and only knocking against the branches would break them loose. When ever I thumped the pipe, bees would rain down. There were no stings, however. The new swarm seems stable today. Some movement of bees to and fro. My intention is not to disturb them for a few days. I am feeding them 1:1 sugar water but they are not taking it very fast today if at all. I need to start my spring treatment with Apistan in January next year. A question. When I was pulling frames from the parent hive, I noticed a couple of bees with deformed wings. My initial reaction was that based on the cycles, they probably were laid and hatched in the early portion of my 45 day Apistan treatment (if not before - I put the Apistan in the third weekend of Februaray) and therefore missed the protection. Should I go ahead and write off this honey flow and treat immediately with terramyacin (sp?)? Or should I let it rock on and treat with Apistan and terramyacin in August, anticipating lifting honey supers in July. Thanks. I know this was too long, but I am excited about the swarm capture. Gene Dixon dixone@sbe.acast.nova.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:27:45 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Orange Flow In a message dated 96-03-31 00:21:26 EST, Kelley Rosenlund writes: >>I'll say disappointment. I have hives in groves near Daytona Beach and just >>west of Orlando, Florida. A few hives are doing well but most aren't making >>honey. At least they are making more bees for pollination. Hives in the >>grove further south in Tampa are doing much better. >> >>God Bless, >>Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu >>Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. >> Finally some good weather has arrived in Florida, as the orange flow is winding down. One benefit of the erratic weather is that the bloom is extended, with late varieties holding off. This gives hives that are in poor shape more time to build. Reports are that the southern end of the citrus belt has now gotten a good crop, while the central ridge is fair. The northen end of the belt is not yet finished. Here in South Carolina, after a record breaking frost three days ago, it is warming up, and (finally) a little bit of a flow. Our bees have the least total honey on them in many a year; we are still feeding. We put a lot of brood foundation on this spring, and a lot of it is ruined. When bees do not get a flow, they go to mischief, chewing and building brace comb, etc. We are about two weeks behind the normal progression for the bees, and hoping it doesn't turn hot, and end spring, before it even gets started. Discussions with a bunch of beekeepers tonight developed two points of view, one side holding that beekeeping is an addiction, with the greatest potential income in the field being to open a halfway house to cure the addiction. Others, including myself, regarded beekeeeping as a result of a defective gene, for which there is no cure. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 01:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Lack of feral swarms I recived 4 packages of bees this week which I installed to replace swarms lost over the winter.The weather has been warm here in central Va. for several weeks,and usually during this time,scouts from feral colonies will be out investigating my hives.This year, since they were empty, I expected many vistors.Eerily, not one bee have I observed.More ominously, there is a telling absence of bees on dandelions & fruit blossoms in my area. I had'nt noticed how empty it seemed until I installed my new bees.Suddenly, it seemed more normal.Today, I took a walk in the woods to scout out any feral swarms working in the warm air.For the first time in my 25 years of bee-keeping, I found NOT 1 feral colony. It appears that mites have decimated colonies for several miles around me.To my knowledge, I am the only bee-keeper for at least 5 miles.The absence of wild colonies, while alarming,gives me some hope that my new swarms may not be as readily infected this year since bee to bee contact will be limited.What truely frightens me is the extinction of the wild bees.While this opens foraging for my swarms,it means a heavy decline in pollination for miles around.This underscores the seriousness of the mite problems now facing the American honey bee.It would seem the survial of the species is now seriously in jepordy. MLHigh "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:28:23 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Theunis Organization: GeRoN!Mo BbS Subject: Order of Phacelia Campanularia seeds 9" Dear Sir, We are an association of fruit farmers ( specially with appels and pears ) who practise the integrated fight ( entomology ). In order to increase the efficacy of the method, we have to enlarge the number of pollinating insects, like bees and bumblebees, which are the restricting factor. Thanks to our friend Jean-Marie Vandyck, we know that you offer a plant which can really help us. That 's why we would like to give you an order for it. Therefore, could you please send us 10 Kg ( or 22 lb ) of Phacelia Campanularia seeds 9" in order to test the plant's efficiency in a test-orchard. The grown-up height of the plant cannot top over 40 cm ( or 16 " ). Moreover we would like to get some information about pollinating insects of the Phacelia ( ecology of the plant ) as well as the disadventages of the plant, if there are some ! . My address : Dimitri Wiame Chaussie de Namur 73 5030 Gembloux ( Belgium ) Fax : +3281610871 E-MAIL : peter.theunis@ping.be Best whishes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:40:36 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Theunis Organization: GeRoN!Mo BbS Subject: Order of Phacelia Campanularia seeds 9" Corrective to precedant E-MAIL: To: Hudson Seedsman po Box 1058 Redwood City Calif 94064 We are an association of fruit farmers ( specially with appels and pears ) who practise the integrated fight ( entomology ). In order to increase the efficacy of the method, we have to enlarge the number of pollinating insects, like bees and bumblebees, which are the restricting factor. Thanks to our friend Jean-Marie Vandyck, we know that you offer a plant which can really help us. That 's why we would like to give you an order for it. Therefore, could you please send us 10 Kg ( or 22 lb ) of Phacelia Campanularia seeds 9" in order to test the plant's efficiency in a test-orchard. The grown-up height of the plant cannot top over 40 cm ( or 16 " ). Moreover we would like to get some information about pollinating insects of the Phacelia ( ecology of the plant ) as well as the disadventages of the plant, if there are some ! . My address : Dimitri Wiame Chaussie de Namur 73 5030 Gembloux ( Belgium ) Fax : +3281610871 E-MAIL : peter.theunis@ping.be Best whishes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 06:55:00 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WINK HOWLAND Subject: Re: package-bees At 00:14 13/04/96 +0100, you wrote: >Hi-all! >Question: >Is it nessesury that package-bees have a full developt queen with it. Would it >be possible to send them just with a piece of open brut? Horizonticly fixt in >the package-box? Or is it thinkeble to offer the pachage-bees just a piece of >foam material enriched with the smell of a queen? I think this bees could be >used to strengthen a small colony in spring without the cost of a queen, or the >queen could be added somewhere else. >Any experience and answers? Thanks at all. > >andreas haehnle A company called Phero Tech products in Armstrong, B.C. Canada, advertises a product called BEE BOOST, which contains a queen pheromone. They claim it will allow the shipping of queenless packages. Their phone no. is (604)546-9870. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:50:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Apistan in honey-producing colonies??? According to directions, apistan is not supposed to be used while honey is being stored for human consumption. I don't get the logic behind this - anyone trying an experiment with colored sugar-water will find that it ends up all through the hive. Nectar is often stored in brood cells to ripen up, then raised up into supers for storage later. So there is NO way to prevent honey stored temporarily below where Apistan is (or recently was) from being mixed in with the surplus. This is especially true where the treatment is made in the spring prior to supering, when the brood nest is expanding. Honey will get moved up as the queen expands the brood area. Maybe not much honey, but still... Incidentally, use of apistan is another point in favor of wide brood frame spacing (i.e., 9 instead of 10). The increased space between combs makes contact with the strip easier and the strip is less likely to "block" surface of adjoining comb. Related question: Is it pretty well established that the dose of pyrethrin in strips is below useable levels after 5-6 weeks? I've heard talk of scratching up the strips' surfaces and using them again (against recommendations). "One use only" restrictions would of course allow the manufacturer to sell more, and as far as I know there's only one manufacturer - has anyone looked into this? Many thanks, JWG (Dismayed at finding another yard with only 2 colonies left alive...) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:24:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ademilson Espencer Egea Soares Subject: Re: Spanish In-Reply-To: <9604130318.04NAS00@relais.com> Temos tamb=E9m na lista brasileiros que entendem e falam espanhol. Desta=20 forma o nosso amigo Argentino, podera escrever quando desejar. Hasta Hombre. Gracias. Espencer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:35:14 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "W. H. Phillips" Subject: Re: Re-If you read my last post At 04:23 PM 4/12/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 08:50 AM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >> REGARDING Re:If you read my last post you know that I am >>hobbiest... >> >>Jeffrey Tooker writes: >>"I want to start with a nuc (four frame from a reputable supply house) in >>a brood chamber with nine or ten full sized frames. I am starting clean >>this month and do not plan to take any honey untill next year. >> >>I would like information on when and how to start treatment for brood >>diseases and mites?" >> >>I believe the sooner the better. Don't let mites get a head start at all. >>Therefore, as soon as the nuc is hived, I would place a couple Apistan strips >>at the center of the cluster area, and put a 1/2 lb patty of Terrapatty (or >>make up a Crisco/sugar/terramycin batch yourself) on the top bars. Apistan >>will help control varroa and the patty will control AFB, EFB and tracheal >>mites. Leave the strips in 45 days, but leave the patty in all year (and >>replace when necessary) if you don't plan to harvest honey this year. In late >>August - early September, put Apistan strips in again for 45 days, then >>remove. Then if you feed Fumadil in 1:1 syrup in early fall, your bees should >>be healthy and raring to go a year from now. >> >>Ted Fischer >> > > >Ted thank you for your very informative reply. I will file it under both >Mites and Diseases. Just one more question. What controls the Vmites when >the strips are not in? > >Thank You > >Jeffrey Tooker > > A BREAKTHROUGH INVENTION THAT WILL AFFECT THE HONEY PRODUCTION AND THE IMMEDIATE AND LONG TERM HEALTH OF THE BEES... Johann Popodi is a passionate beekeeper who recognized the VARROA problem very early. He was not happy with available means of treating the mites (using strips), due to the toxic nature of the chemicals and the side effects that it had on both the bees and the honey. Consequently, Mr. Popodi continued to devote his time and attention to research using formic acid, which is a naturally occurring substance and has long been known to many beekeepers for its beneficial characteristics. The great advantage of formic acid is that there are no poisonous or harmful affects on the honey bee. In addition, it does not produce sediments in the honey, leaving the liquid natural. VARROA TREATMENT DEVICE or "VTD". It is simple and safe to use and operates efficiently measuring out accurate and precise dosag of medication. The VTD(TM)assures a continuous and prolonged treatment at a very modest price. A very high level of success is assured through the whole treatment cycle, particularly during the time when the brood is covered. Due to the evaporation of the formic acid (which does not affect the bees) the mites (black) are destroyed. The most important advantage of this method is that the vapor can penetrate into the honey comb of the young bees and the young Varroa mites (white) are killed at an early stage. Placing a mite grill on the bottom of the hive for continuous observation would be advisable. The VTD(TM) has also had positive success in the treatment of the tracheal mite and lime brood. POSITIVE ASPECTS: simple and easy to use - safe - guaranteed to work - tested internationally - non-toxic - no dangerous side effects - naturally derived material - inexpensive. CANADIAN AND US PATENT PENDING MADE IN CANADA UNIVERSITY TESTED IN USA Information: POPODI DEVELOPMENT R.R. 1, S.11, C55, Naramata, BC. Canada, VOH 1N0 Tel/Fax: (604) 496-4087 E-mail: popodi@silk.net **FORMIC ACID IS NOT APPROVED FOR USE IN SOME JURISDICTIONS, THEREFORE ARE INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE ARE VOID WHERE PROHIBITED.** >Mr. Tooker: We plan to market the device at a cost of $4.85 U.S. (plus shipping). 85% formic acid is not approved for use in some jurisdictions, therefore our instructions for use are void where prohibited. In Canada it will sell for $6.75 (plus applicable taxes and shipping) per unit. In Canada, formic acid is approved for use. This includes the device and sawdust. Formic acid is not supplied. What follows is our one page product flyer. We hope to be of service to you in the future! Bee Happy! Sincerely, Hans Popodi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:36:55 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "W. H. Phillips" Subject: Re: Apistan in honey-producing colonies??? At 10:50 AM 4/14/96 -0500, you wrote: >According to directions, apistan is not supposed to be used while honey is >being stored for human consumption. I don't get the logic behind this - >anyone trying an experiment with colored sugar-water will find that it ends >up all through the hive. Nectar is often stored in brood cells to ripen >up, then raised up into supers for storage later. So there is NO way to >prevent honey stored temporarily below where Apistan is (or recently was) >from being mixed in with the surplus. This is especially true where the >treatment is made in the spring prior to supering, when the brood nest is >expanding. Honey will get moved up as the queen expands the brood area. >Maybe not much honey, but still... > >Incidentally, use of apistan is another point in favor of wide brood frame >spacing (i.e., 9 instead of 10). The increased space between combs makes >contact with the strip easier and the strip is less likely to "block" >surface of adjoining comb. > >Related question: Is it pretty well established that the dose of pyrethrin >in strips is below useable levels after 5-6 weeks? I've heard talk of >scratching up the strips' surfaces and using them again (against >recommendations). "One use only" restrictions would of course allow the >manufacturer to sell more, and as far as I know there's only one >manufacturer - has anyone looked into this? > >Many thanks, JWG (Dismayed at finding another yard with only 2 >colonies left alive...) > > A BREAKTHROUGH INVENTION THAT WILL AFFECT THE HONEY PRODUCTION AND THE IMMEDIATE AND LONG TERM HEALTH OF THE BEES... Johann Popodi is a passionate beekeeper who recognized the VARROA problem very early. He was not happy with available means of treating the mites (using strips), due to the toxic nature of the chemicals and the side effects that it had on both the bees and the honey. Consequently, Mr. Popodi continued to devote his time and attention to research using formic acid, which is a naturally occurring substance and has long been known to many beekeepers for its beneficial characteristics. The great advantage of formic acid is that there are no poisonous or harmful affects on the honey bee. In addition, it does not produce sediments in the honey, leaving the liquid natural. VARROA TREATMENT DEVICE or "VTD". It is simple and safe to use and operates efficiently measuring out accurate and precise dosag of medication. The VTD(TM)assures a continuous and prolonged treatment at a very modest price. A very high level of success is assured through the whole treatment cycle, particularly during the time when the brood is covered. Due to the evaporation of the formic acid (which does not affect the bees) the mites (black) are destroyed. The most important advantage of this method is that the vapor can penetrate into the honey comb of the young bees and the young Varroa mites (white) are killed at an early stage. Placing a mite grill on the bottom of the hive for continuous observation would be advisable. The VTD(TM) has also had positive success in the treatment of the tracheal mite and lime brood. POSITIVE ASPECTS: simple and easy to use - safe - guaranteed to work - tested internationally - non-toxic - no dangerous side effects - naturally derived material - inexpensive. CANADIAN AND US PATENT PENDING MADE IN CANADA UNIVERSITY TESTED IN USA Information: POPODI DEVELOPMENT R.R. 1, S.11, C55, Naramata, BC. Canada, VOH 1N0 Tel/Fax: (604) 496-4087 E-mail: popodi@silk.net **FORMIC ACID IS NOT APPROVED FOR USE IN SOME JURISDICTIONS, THEREFORE ARE INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE ARE VOID WHERE PROHIBITED.** We plan to market the device at a cost of $4.85 U.S. (plus shipping). 85% formic acid is not approved for use in some jurisdictions, therefore our instructions for use are void where prohibited. In Canada it will sell for $6.75 (plus applicable taxes and shipping) per unit. In Canada, formic acid is approved for use. This includes the device and sawdust. Formic acid is not supplied. What follows is our one page product flyer. We hope to be of service to you in the future! Bee Happy! Sincerely, Hans Popodi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:55:27 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave McLure Subject: Honey market information Does anyone know of a newsgroup or list similar to this where packers and commercial beekeeepers may exchange honey market information (price, quantities and types of honey available/needed? I am a medium sized packer in the northeast interested in hearing from beekeepers with honey to sell - darker grades needed now. E-mail me at peanut@moose.ncia.net. Thanks, Dave McLure ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:59:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Lack of feral swarms In a message dated 96-04-14 01:02:18 EDT, you write: >Subj: Lack of feral swarms >Date: 96-04-14 01:02:18 EDT >From: mlhigh@MNSINC.COM (Michael Lance High Sr.) >Sender: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Discussion of Bee Biology) >Reply-to: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Discussion of Bee Biology) >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Multiple recipients of list BEE-L) > >I recived 4 packages of bees this week which I installed to replace >swarms lost over the winter.The weather has been warm here in central Va. >for several weeks,and usually during this time,scouts from feral colonies >will be out investigating my hives.This year, since they were empty, I >expected many vistors.Eerily, not one bee have I observed.More ominously, >there is a telling absence of bees on dandelions & fruit blossoms in my area. >I had'nt noticed how empty it seemed until I installed my new >bees.Suddenly, it seemed more normal.Today, I took a walk in the woods to >scout out any feral swarms working in the warm air.For the first time in >my 25 years of bee-keeping, I found NOT 1 feral colony. It appears that >mites have decimated colonies for several miles around me.To my >knowledge, I am the only bee-keeper for at least 5 miles.The absence of >wild colonies, while alarming,gives me some hope that my new swarms may >not be as readily infected this year since bee to bee contact will be >limited.What truely frightens me is the extinction of the wild bees.While >this opens foraging for my swarms,it means a heavy decline in pollination >for miles around.This underscores the seriousness of the mite problems >now facing the American honey bee.It would seem the survial of the >species is now seriously in jepordy. > MLHigh You said it! Better than anyone I've seen yet. May I have permission to reproduce your letter on my web site? Thanks. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:38:01 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Spanish At 10:24 PM 4/14/96 -0400, you wrote: >Temos tamb=E9m na lista brasileiros que entendem e falam espanhol. Desta=20 >forma o nosso amigo Argentino, podera escrever quando desejar. >Hasta Hombre. Gracias. >Espencer > This post is from Brazil and is in Portugese. My grandfather came from=20 the Azor Islands. My mother speaks Portugese so I got it translated. ____________________________________________________________________________ ___________ TRANSLATION We also have on the Brasilian list those who understand spanish. In this way our Argentine friend will be able to write when ever you want. This Man Thanks You Spencer ____________________________________________________________________________ ___________ Later Jeff> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:39:21 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Re-If you read my last post At 06:35 PM 4/14/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 04:23 PM 4/12/96 -0700, you wrote: >>At 08:50 AM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >>> REGARDING Re:If you read my last post you know that I am >>>hobbiest... >>> >>>Jeffrey Tooker writes: >>>"I want to start with a nuc (four frame from a reputable supply house) in >>>a brood chamber with nine or ten full sized frames. I am starting clean >>>this month and do not plan to take any honey untill next year. >>> >>>I would like information on when and how to start treatment for brood >>>diseases and mites?" >>> >>>I believe the sooner the better. Don't let mites get a head start at all. >>>Therefore, as soon as the nuc is hived, I would place a couple Apistan strips >>>at the center of the cluster area, and put a 1/2 lb patty of Terrapatty (or >>>make up a Crisco/sugar/terramycin batch yourself) on the top bars. Apistan >>>will help control varroa and the patty will control AFB, EFB and tracheal >>>mites. Leave the strips in 45 days, but leave the patty in all year (and >>>replace when necessary) if you don't plan to harvest honey this year. In late >>>August - early September, put Apistan strips in again for 45 days, then >>>remove. Then if you feed Fumadil in 1:1 syrup in early fall, your bees should >>>be healthy and raring to go a year from now. >>> >>>Ted Fischer >>> >> >> >>Ted thank you for your very informative reply. I will file it under both >>Mites and Diseases. Just one more question. What controls the Vmites when >>the strips are not in? >> >>Thank You >> >>Jeffrey Tooker > >> > > >A BREAKTHROUGH INVENTION THAT WILL AFFECT THE HONEY PRODUCTION AND THE >IMMEDIATE AND LONG TERM HEALTH OF THE BEES... > >Johann Popodi is a passionate beekeeper who recognized the VARROA problem >very early. He was not happy with available means of treating the mites >(using strips), due to the toxic nature of the chemicals and the side >effects that it had on both the bees and the honey. Consequently, Mr. >Popodi continued to devote his time and attention to research using formic >acid, which is a naturally occurring substance and has long been known to >many beekeepers for its beneficial characteristics. The great advantage of >formic acid is that there are no poisonous or harmful affects on the honey >bee. In addition, it does not produce sediments in the honey, leaving the >liquid natural. > >VARROA TREATMENT DEVICE or "VTD". > >It is simple and safe to use and operates efficiently measuring out accurate >and precise dosag of medication. The VTD(TM)assures a continuous and >prolonged treatment at a very modest price. A very high level of success is >assured through the whole treatment cycle, particularly during the time when >the brood is covered. Due to the evaporation of the formic acid (which does >not affect the bees) the mites (black) are destroyed. The most important >advantage of this method is that the vapor can penetrate into the honey comb >of the young bees and the young Varroa mites (white) are killed at an early >stage. Placing a mite grill on the bottom of the hive for continuous >observation would be advisable. The VTD(TM) has also had positive success >in the treatment of the tracheal mite and lime brood. > >POSITIVE ASPECTS: > >simple and easy to use - safe - guaranteed to work - tested internationally >- non-toxic - no dangerous side effects - naturally derived material - >inexpensive. > >CANADIAN AND US PATENT PENDING >MADE IN CANADA >UNIVERSITY TESTED IN USA > >Information: >POPODI DEVELOPMENT >R.R. 1, S.11, C55, >Naramata, BC. >Canada, VOH 1N0 >Tel/Fax: (604) 496-4087 >E-mail: popodi@silk.net > >**FORMIC ACID IS NOT APPROVED FOR USE IN SOME JURISDICTIONS, THEREFORE ARE >INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE ARE VOID WHERE PROHIBITED.** > >>Mr. Tooker: > >We plan to market the device at a cost of $4.85 U.S. (plus shipping). 85% >formic acid is not approved for use in some jurisdictions, therefore our >instructions for use are void where prohibited. In Canada it will sell for >$6.75 (plus applicable taxes and shipping) per unit. In Canada, formic acid >is approved for use. This includes the device and sawdust. Formic acid is >not supplied. > >What follows is our one page product flyer. We hope to be of service to you >in the future! > >Bee Happy! > >Sincerely, >Hans Popodi > Does anyone know the restrictions on formic acid in the U.S.A.? Is it leagal for treating bees here? If so is it legal in california? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:03:50 +22324924 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Trying to locate a reference... Hello. Trying to find this reference: Melksham, KJ 1985 The Synthesis, Testing and Theory on the Mode of Action of Semiochemicals (repellents) for the Honey Bee (_Apis mellifera_ L.). This is a masters thesis. The Chemistry department at the University of Queensland, Australia, where this work was done, cannot seem to supply me with the thesis or point me to where it might be. Would anyone know where I may find this? Is it archived? My library cannot get it through inter-library loan. thanks, Adam Adam Finkelstein Entomology 324 Price Hall VA Tech, Blacksburg, VA 24001-0325 -- _________________ adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:57:25 CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Balogh Subject: Re: Trying to locate a reference... In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:03:50 +22324924 from Hi Beekeepers, I'm kinda new to the list. I do have a few questions maybe someone can clearly answer. To start a bee hobby. How many colonies should I begin with? Is one hive consider a hobby? Also how many hives would I have to increase to be considered a commerical beek eeper? I thank anyone whom replies to my questions. Elizabeth Balogh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 00:36:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: midnitebee Subject: Re: Trying to locate a reference... At 10:57 PM 4/14/96 CDT, you wrote: >Hi Beekeepers, > >I'm kinda new to the list. I do have a few questions maybe someone can clearly >answer. > > I recommend that you start with two hives,that way you will be able to compare one hive to the other.Commercial beekeeper?! The answers to that question is varied by many. I can tell you this,to be able to produce honey,for profit,if you are lucky,you need at least 50 hives. E-mail me directly,if you have more questions. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:39:36 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Francisco Padilla Alvarez Subject: Re: Spanish >Hola Walter Lipari, > >>I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina and my mother language is >>Spanish. Is there anyone in this list who speaks Spanish? > >Claro que si! Hablo frances pero me encanta hablar espaniol. Mi >doctor es argentino y siempre hablamos espaniol. > >Jean-Louis Adant, quebecquense y tambien latino-americano (por ser >un francofono de america) pero no canadiense. > >Yo tambien hablo espanol, y por mi direccion de e-mail sabras que vivi en Espana ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:43:18 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Captured Swarm REGARDING RE>Captured Swarm Charles (Rick) Grubbs writes: "Well I got my first swarm today. I had just finished installing 2 new packages of bees, and went back into the house and my neighbor came and told me that a swarm of bees had came out of a large oak tree on his property and landed on his childrens swing set. My son and I gathered all of our equipment and went over and captured the swarm in a cardboard box. I brought them back and put them in front of a new hive with foundation and opened the box and they just walked into the hive. It was the most exciting and gratifing thing I have ever witnessed. " I agree with you, that hiveing a swarm is an exciting experience. I love to watch them go on into the hive too, all with a singleness of purpose. However, I would like to comment that this swarm came from a known feral colony, so obviously the parent colony got through the winter without mite control measures. I would watch this new colony carefully - it may show signs of varroa resistance, and be a valuable resource for you. Watch the feral colony, too, to see whether it will survive the year intact. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 08:08:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Re-If you read my last p REGARDING RE>Re-If you read my last post "Does anyone know the restrictions on formic acid in the U.S.A.? Is it leagal for treating bees here? If so is it legal in california?" Concerning this question, the answer is that at present formic acid is not approved in the USA. There certainly is a lot of interesting information coming out on formic acid, and the device proposed by the Popodi's seems interesting. But to be legal about it US beekeepers should just wait a bit until it is approved here. As to the earlier question by Mr. Tooker: "What controls the Vmites when the strips are not in?" Unfortunately, the answer is "Nothing". Apistan is said to kill 99.8% of the mites. This leaves 0.02% alive, and over the course of a summer they will build up again until it is necessary to retreat in late summer/early fall. You can see what this implies, too: The remaining mites will be the ones most resistant to the miticide, so resistance is bound to build up over the years. What we are actually seeing now in parts of Europe is resistance to this chemical. This is what makes the search for alternatives, such as formic acid, so important. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 08:38:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Newbie report with Quest REGARDING RE>Newbie report with Questions Gene Dixon writes: "Yesterday, my daughter informed me one of my two hives had swarmed. It was just last weekend I removed the Apistan and added supers. The swarm was about 40 feet up in a pine tree. A 32 foot ladder, a shop vacuum and a couple of 12 foot sections (it was salvage therefore the odd lengths) brought maybe 2/3 of the bees into my plastic bucket recieving chamber. When I got all I could, I took the recieving bucket into the basement to cool the bees and sprinkled sugar water on them. Back outside, the remaining bees re-entered the hive from which they swarmed. This all happened around noon here in the Central Savannah River Area of South Carolina. We're across the river from Augusta Georgia where the Masters is currently capturning national attention. Anyway about 5:30 PM, I took the recieving bucket out to the empty deep super I had set up. I pulled one frame of honey and pollen out of the hive that hadn't swarmed and one frame of honey and pollen from the parent hive. I then pulled a hive of brood from the parent hive and upon closer examination found an empty queen cell with several other queen cells. I was reluctant to place it in the new hive body until I realized I had no idea if the swarming queen had survived the vacuum trip. I put it in. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? What I learned: CPVC pipe in 24 - 30 foot sections is heavy. Next time I'll borrow some aluminum tubing from anybody with a swimming pool. Though I had made provisions to control the amount of suction, my vacuum operator was a young lad who had never before seen a swarm. The vacuum was not regulated. I killed about 1/3 of the bees during the suction operation. I neede a piece of foam in the bucket to soften the fall. I also had to use one section of "corrogated" vacuum tubing. There was a significant bee kill in this section of tubing. The bees tended to clog the 2 inch pipe and only knocking against the branches would break them loose. When ever I thumped the pipe, bees would rain down. There were no stings, however. The new swarm seems stable today. Some movement of bees to and fro. My intention is not to disturb them for a few days. I am feeding them 1:1 sugar water but they are not taking it very fast today if at all. I need to start my spring treatment with Apistan in January next year. A question. When I was pulling frames from the parent hive, I noticed a couple of bees with deformed wings. My initial reaction was that based on the cycles, they probably were laid and hatched in the early portion of my 45 day Apistan treatment (if not before - I put the Apistan in the third weekend of Februaray) and therefore missed the protection. Should I go ahead and write off this honey flow and treat immediately with terramyacin (sp?)? Or should I let it rock on and treat with Apistan and terramyacin in August, anticipating lifting honey supers in July. Thanks. I know this was too long, but I am excited about the swarm capture." Thanks for this report of a rather heroic effort at swarm retrieval. It certainly is exciting to hive a new swarm, but I wonder if it is really worth all the bother you went through. You should know soon whether or not you got the queen safely in with the swarm - it seems likely you did, or the swarm would not have stayed in the new quarters you gave it. My personal opinion is that a swarm is not worth taking safety risks to retrieve. A forty foot high swarm is one that I, myself, would just look longingly at and hope it would end up in a bait hive set up nearby. If not, I would just let it go and hope for a lower one next time. As to the medication quesition. If you're into your honey flow now, I wouldn't treat with Apistan or terramycin. Leave that until after your main flow. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Leaf cutting bees???? I am looking for some information. One of the old timers at our bee association was wondering if anyone remembers and can give any information on a study done on leaf cutting bees in the 1970's. Several trailers were being special made for transportation of these bees around the US. Any input would be appreciated. Sorry I don't have any more information on the study except this beekeeper helped build the trailers and everyone he knew with the project is dead or unavailable for comment. Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:54:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Jentner queen raising/nucs >Kelly you only live about one hour north of us here at Hybri-Bees. So why >don't you just come on down here and we can show you all you need to know >about raising Queens. I have one of those Jentner kits and........ well lets >just say it is a lot faster to just graft. We are always glad to help other >beekeepers raise their own queens and would be happy to help any way we can. >Visitors are always welcome at HBI. Dean, I would enjoy coming down & checking out your operation, this summer though. I am up to my neck in work getting hives in order for pollination. Where do you live? What do you use for mating nucs? I am interested in using baby or micro nucs because I understand it is much easier to find the queen, fewer bees, etc. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:59:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Jentner queen raising/nucs /Error Sorry to the list for sending to all my reply for Dean. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:23:35 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: bee size and altimeters A very interesting story Jerry! >Years ago, we used a front entrance pollen trap that proved to us just >how variable body size was. We ended up using two traps, fitting the >traps to the size of the bees. Curiously, last summer, bees that fit >through a plastic pollen grid in Montana couldn't get through the same >grids 4 days later after moving them to Maryland. I certainly wouldn't even venture a guess as to the effect of elevation! As far as the normal size variation requiring two trap sizes: Were the bees on different types of comb? That is, do you attribute the size variation to the fact that some were on old comb with smaller cells, or to genetic variation? Also, where can one obtain plastic pollen grids; I use square mesh hardware screen (5 X 5 mesh) doubled, i.e. one on either side of the masonite slider. Do the plastic pollen grids have round holes? Do enough bees go through with intact loads to maintain brood rearing, or are you using them for experiments where you want to weigh almost all the pollen being brought in. Thankyou, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:23:32 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: bee size Mike Allsopp writes: >The person to consult in this is probably Professor Jerzy Woyke of >Poland; it has been an interest of his for some while and he >presented a paper on precisely this theme at the Apimondia conference >at Lausanne. Does anyone have an email or snail mail address for Professor Woyke? Thankyou Stan P.S. My hives are buried under several inches of fresh snow today. Still no pollen. Found five dead out of 160 when I was putting pollen substitute patties on. Three very strong ones starved and many are on the verge. Warm weather in Jan-Feb must have stimulated a little too much egg laying. Hive weight averaged well over 130 pounds in the fall. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:33:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Re: Captured Swarm Ted Fischer wrote: > > REGARDING RE>Captured Swarm > I agree with you, that hiveing a swarm is an exciting experience. I love to > watch them go on into the hive too, all with a singleness of purpose. > However, I would like to comment that this swarm came from a known feral > colony, so obviously the parent colony got through the winter without mite > control measures. I would watch this new colony carefully - it may show signs > of varroa resistance, and be a valuable resource for you. Watch the feral > colony, too, to see whether it will survive the year intact. Would you suggest not treating this hive with Apistan? -- *************************** * Charles (Rick) Grubbs * * digital@avana.net * * Douglasville, Ga SE USA * *************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:40:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Joseph Gatien Subject: Re: Apistan resistance In response to the message of Ted Fischer: It is not necessarily true that a 0.02% mite infestation level after a spring treatment will grow to a treatable level by the late summer or fall of the same year. It is essential, though, that all colonies in an apiary (and even neighbouring apiaries) be treated at the same time. Mite increase due to immigration is often greater than the intrinsic rate of increase within a hive. Regarding resistance to fluvalinate: it is also not necessarily true that those mites not killed by a treatment are resistant to the chemical. Furthermore, overapplication and "insurance" treatments will only hasten the process of resistance buildup. It is undoubtedly misuse of the product which has created the problems now being encountered in Europe. Just my two cents. Paul Gatien ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:57:23 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 12 Apr 1996 to 13 Apr 1996 In-Reply-To: <01I3I97RZJ5UQYZAEQ@saturn.gov.bc.ca> Re. Varroa lifecycle - Adony Melathopoulos CAPA's booklet 'Honey Bee Diseases and Pests' is still available in limited quantities. Check with W.T. Kelly, Datant & Sons, or local bee supplier. If not, I still have a limited supply left. Contact me directly. A new edition is expected to be published in the next few months. Paul van Westendorp pvanwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 08:41:45 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: HAWAII BEEKEEPING RE: Blane White Posting Dear Blane Last week Tom's post explained in more details the mite testing done on a state wide basis here in Hawaii. Additional information about the Hawaii state law which since 1985 has disallowed the importation of honeybees and or honeybee equipment into Hawaii from any where in an attempt to stop the introduction and spread of mites and AHB. In 1985 no one had started talking about viruses and the law may have protected Hawaii from the viruses which may have first gotten on honeybees in Australia and New Zealand. In 1979 Drs. Bailey and Ball reported that the new strains of viruses would be a threat to honeybees in the Americas and Europe if allowed to be introduced to honeybee colonies already infected with mites. This law has severely slowed the growth of the honeybee business in Hawaii and more importantly maybe kept a safe haven for American honeybees. The state of Hawaii is composed of many small islands with 5 major islands having honeybee activity today. You are correct in that extensive testing has not been done on Hawaii honeybee populations to understand the baseline health status of the honeybee colonies on each island. I have been trying to get such a testing program underway since1994 when the USDA attempted to allow New Zealand honeybees into the United States in violation of the original intent of the Honeybee Act of 1922. The Honeybee Act of 1922 had a strict prohibition against the importation of honeybee to the US to "prevent the introduction and spread of disease and parasites harmful to honeybees". The act allowed for importation of honeybees If the secretary of Agriculture determined a country to " free of disease or parasites harmful to honeybees". The USDA in their 1990 Federal Registry notice of the USDA intent to allow N.Z. bees into the U.S. stated in the opening paragraph that the Secretary Of Agriculture had determined that NZ honeybee were " free of honeybee pest and disease" This incorrect and fraudulent statement was made to establish document credibility in the opening paragraph. NZ honeybees are widely reported to have plenty of honeybee pest and disease . NZ honeybee researchers have tried to say that these pest and diseases are of no economic concern to honeybees. By definition if the pest and disease are harmless why are they still referred to as pest and disease of honeybees. Furthermore who can say how the pest and diseases might effect other honeybees in different climates. Granted NZ and Canada share similar climates and Hawaii is very different. After I began my investigation I found inconsistency after inconsistency to the point that I felt the entire process had been corrupted and that great caution must be employed when dealing with the USDA. I can cite lots of problems discovered with my investigation. I continue to have concerns when dealing with this issue as much smoke and mirrors are found everywhere, and the fact that the Honeybee Act was gutted of it's original intent in 1995 by the GATT treaty without ANY notice or ANY input about the changes. Your concern that the intent of the concerns here in Hawaii are to protect our Hawaii beekeeping interests are not very accurate. I am a neophyte keeper of the bees and I am a very curious person who happened to accidentally discover the process that would allow the future of US beekeeping to be given to a foreign nation. I believe that for the good of the United States that a much more in-depth review must be under taken to protect honeybee around the world from the continued spread of honeybee pest and disease. Too few people have been involved in the past with this very complicated issue. Granted the honeybee crisis in the world seems to exploding and the shipment of honeybees around the world seems to be the way that ALL honeybee pest and disease have been spread around the globe. Hoping the posting will motivate more beekeepers in the U S and around the world to ask a few more questions and not be so DAMN accepting of what ever is said by the "EXPERTS" working without any peer review. This could be an issue of human survival. The Devine order provided the human race with the meager little honeybee as chief pollinator of the foods of the human race. Now we beekeepers as keepers of the bees must work for the continued well being of the honeybee. Quick fixes I am afraid will result in continued honeybee problems. Just because a few people feel that honeybee shipments should be allowed with out concern is not proof that no harm will be done. Sincerely Walter Patton Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:14:45 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Q:Anyone use Slatted Rack, Follower Board, or Cluster Ra In-Reply-To: <199604101527.JAA29940@selway.umt.edu> On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > On the other hand, the Seattle beekeepers that we worked with have a > vastly different climate. Their bees sit around for a "long, cool" > winter, and apparently eat lots of stores over the winter. Because the > temperatures are mild, the bees stay more active, and seem to eat more. > So, smaller cluster sizes for winter seem to be a reasonable goal - but I > don't have the data to truly access this outcome. > > In these times where tracheal and varroa mites impact colonies, we may > want to revist the minimalist approach to overwintering. Maybe we ought > to aim for stronger colonies going in to the winter, to help offset the > mite impacts. This assumes you use some form of treatment to control > mites, or have some mite resistance in your colonies. Otherwise, strong > colonies may just end up with more mites and even bigger piles of dead bees. > Hi Jerry and All, Being in the Seattle area and have tried different ways to set up for winter. I find that strong colinies in two or three brood boxs do better come spring time. I leave 60 pounds of honey on the hives as a minimum.What I have found is a very srong hive in the spring for the early flows and I start getting honey in April. You will have to do some splits and if you requeen in the spring I don't have a problem with swarms. Give them room and a new queen and you will get plenty of honey. The down side is moving the hives.Some you can't move in June because of the populations are large and 3 deeps full of brood and bees. The mite problem has me rethinking everything I do. This coming year I will do 2 nucs on top of my normal hive above a double screen.A thought, warm air holds more moisture and if it is able to excape out of the top of the hive, you will have less condesation in the hive. Large populations generate more heat. There is a trade off, like everything else. You can sell a little more honey if you winter over with smaller hives. I look at my bees for the answer, the better I do my job in concert with the bees , the more honey I get from them.Each area has its own right way. I did 10 hives in singles this year and they are building up now in two deeps. We had a mild winter so it worked. I don't use excluders , so I get a few queens up in a western now and then. If you rotate 3 deeps you should not have a problem with the queen up in the supers. Its a lot of work. Over 100 hives you need help. A note about a good laying queen. Don't stop her. I have had hives going great and not give the queen enough room and she would stop laying.They seem to never get back to the same rate of laying as they did in the begining. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:02:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Apistan in honey-producing colonies??? On how long must Apistan be out of a colony before the start of the honeyflow, I have heard various answers ranging from "pull strips when you put on the supers" to "28 days". The Apistan label does not specify a waiting interval; only that the strips must be out before honey supers go on. Personally, I time my Spring treatment so the strips are pulled about 3 weeks before the supers go on. The 28 day waiting interval comes from Dr. Collison's "Spring Disease Management" quiz in the March "Bee Culture". Personally, I would like to see the reference he used for the 28 days. As for what is the actual minimum length waiting interval, to calculate it would require knowledge of strip dose rates, Apistan decay, transport, and dilution factors, as well as the maximum acceptable concentration in commercial honey. Let's just say it would be a mess and probably have a large margin for error. However, the nature of the Apistan product (a contact miticide that is not terribly volitile) makes significant transport to the supers difficult, and almost impossible if the strips are not present in the hives along with the supers. Now for the second question: Do old, abraded Apistan stips work acceptably? The answer given at various Maryland State Beekeeper's Association meetings is a flat "No". Use new strips each time. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:26:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Timothy Cote Subject: Re: Beesting kits for sale Recently I floated the notion that, as a service to the beekeeping community I might sell beesting kits (injectable epinephrine) for the expressed purpose of safguarding against anaphylaxis among persons not previously known to be allergic. Many people liked the idea. A few gave me ideas on limiting liability. The upshot is they're for sale, those interested can send a check for $25ea or $40 for two. Timothy R. Cote MD MPH 512 Boston Ave Takoma Park, MD 20912 > Timothy Cote MD MPH 512 Boston Ave Takoma Park, MD 20912 301-587-2425 fax 301-587-6192 beesbuzz@erols.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:03:51 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Bleach and Bacteria Can anyone give me a reference to an article that describes the effects of various chemical reagents that can be used as sterilisation agent for honeybee bacterial diseases. I'm am particularly interested in the usefulness of bleach (sodium hypochlorite) as a sterilisation agent. Thanks in advance, Robert Rice. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:52:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Frame Bath Frame Bath for AFB My opinion? Burn frames and buy new ones. Sorry if you have to convert to metric. Chlorine Bath: 4 oz. sodium hypochlorite per 100 gal H2O or 1 gal Chlorox (chlorine) bleach per 100 gal H20 Lye Bath: 1 lb lye per 10 gal H2O All H2O should be boiling or almost that HOT. Keep frames submerged with post or weights. These materials will harm you if proper protection isn't employed. -- _________________________________________________________________________ Adam Finkelstein Internet Apicultural and Beekeeping Archives adamf@sunsite.unc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:14:41 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 12 Apr 1996 to 13 Apr 1996 -Reply Comments: To: PVANWESTEN@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA Just a quick, unsolicited testimonial regarding CAPA's "Honey Bee Diseases and Pests". In my opinion this is an excellent publication, and one which deserves to be in every beekeeper's library. Its advantages are its low price and excellent colour photographs of all important bee diseases. Even though in New Zealand we are fortunate enough not to have some of the bee diseases described in the pamphlet, we use it extensively here as a training aid for our border protection, surveillance and exotic pest and disease preparedness programmes. Cliff Van Eaton Apicultural Advisory Officer MAF Quality Management Tauranga, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ann Dougherty Subject: Concave brood In-Reply-To: <199604160252.WAA01312@helios.oit.unc.edu> I was stocking my observation hive the other day with a frame of capped brood and a queen cell. The comb was a little wider than the walls (glass) of the little hive and subsequently one side of the frame was less than a bee space frome the glass. Over night the bees started to change the cap from a convex shape to a concave design. In fact the cell is actually shorter in length. Isn't the pupa already crammed into the cell? Has anyone experienced this before? There seems to be a general thread running through this list concerning possible contamination of honey from fluvalinate or terramycin. I'm real clear on Apistan and only use it for 5 weeks in the fall with good results. I've always put on extender patties between the 2 brood boxes when the cherries bloom and left them in all season. I was lead to believe that only the nurse bees were diligent enough to gnaw on the patties and hence the terramycin would never get into the honey supers. Now I hear that no medication should be be in the hive with the honey supers. What do you other folks do? Jim Nietmann Kirkland,Wa. USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:22:55 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Re-If you read my last p At 08:08 AM 4/15/96 -0400, you wrote: > REGARDING RE>Re-If you read my last post > >"Does anyone know the restrictions on formic acid in the U.S.A.? >Is it leagal for treating bees here? If so is it legal in california?" > >Concerning this question, the answer is that at present formic acid is not >approved in the USA. There certainly is a lot of interesting information >coming out on formic acid, and the device proposed by the Popodi's seems >interesting. But to be legal about it US beekeepers should just wait a bit >until it is approved here. > >As to the earlier question by Mr. Tooker: >"What controls the Vmites when the strips are not in?" > >Unfortunately, the answer is "Nothing". Apistan is said to kill 99.8% of the >mites. This leaves 0.02% alive, and over the course of a summer they will >build up again until it is necessary to retreat in late summer/early fall. >You can see what this implies, too: The remaining mites will be the ones most >resistant to the miticide, so resistance is bound to build up over the years. >What we are actually seeing now in parts of Europe is resistance to this >chemical. This is what makes the search for alternatives, such as formic >acid, so important. > > My first question is what is the history of the use of formic acid with bees? My second question is what is the outlook for the approval of the use of formic acid in the U.S. for bees? I have been on this list about a week and my e-mail mail box for Vmites is getting fat. Later JRT ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:46:48 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Alexander Subject: Re: Frame Bath In-Reply-To: <199604160252.WAA01312@helios.oit.unc.edu> another way to save equipment is to fumigate it with ethlyne oxide if there is anyone in the area doing it. i have the equipment in washington state and can handle most any size load. dave alexander On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Adam Finkelstein wrote: > Frame Bath for AFB > > My opinion? Burn frames and buy new ones. > Sorry if you have to convert to metric. > > > Chlorine Bath: > 4 oz. sodium hypochlorite per 100 gal H2O > > or > 1 gal Chlorox (chlorine) bleach per 100 gal H20 > > Lye Bath: > 1 lb lye per 10 gal H2O > > > All H2O should be boiling or almost that HOT. > > Keep frames submerged with post or weights. > These materials will harm you if proper protection isn't employed. > -- > _________________________________________________________________________ > Adam Finkelstein Internet Apicultural and Beekeeping Archives > adamf@sunsite.unc.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:13:15 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Frame Bath At 10:52 PM 4/15/96 -0400, you wrote: > Frame Bath for AFB > >My opinion? Burn frames and buy new ones. >Sorry if you have to convert to metric. > > >Chlorine Bath: >4 oz. sodium hypochlorite per 100 gal H2O > >or >1 gal Chlorox (chlorine) bleach per 100 gal H20 > >Lye Bath: >1 lb lye per 10 gal H2O > > >All H2O should be boiling or almost that HOT. > >Keep frames submerged with post or weights. >These materials will harm you if proper protection isn't employed. >-- >_________________________________________________________________________ >Adam Finkelstein Internet Apicultural and Beekeeping Archives >adamf@sunsite.unc.edu > > I have several deep hive bodies which I got from my brother. They are in reasonably good shape. He has not used them for a couple of years, and I do not know their history. I can repaint the outsides but I do not know what to do hygenically for the inside. (I hope the answer is not kitchen matches) Thank You Jeffrey Tooker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:42:02 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Frame Bath Hello all ! Hi Adam ! On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:52 Adam Finkelstein wrote: > Frame Bath for AFB > > My opinion? Burn frames and buy new ones. > Sorry if you have to convert to metric. [cut...] > Lye Bath: > 1 lb lye per 10 gal H2O I don't know what you mean with lye (I found: a liquid produced by passing water through the ashes of wood, used in washing and in making soap). If it is Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate) OK! but if it is NaOH (sodium hydroxide) your boiling bath is a real danger for the user. Brother Adam use NaOH while cleaning his material, but only 1 lb per 100 lt of boiling water (your recipe gives 3x more). > All H2O should be boiling or almost that HOT. > Keep frames submerged with post or weights. > These materials will harm you if proper protection isn't employed. PAY ATTENTION, WEAR SUITABLE STRONG GLOVES with SLEEVES and EYE/FACE PROTECTION. Use OLD CLOTHING : all stain will become a hole ! Moreover, and for AFB I had already give my $0.02 When all is rinced and dry, according to the works of the Dr Shimanuki and coworkers (Feldlaufer et al, 1993), after this cleaning in an alcaline boiling bath (at least 10 min of boiling for removing **ALL** the wax and propolis), I would dip this material in a solution of lauric acid** 0.2 % in methanol (2 g per liter). Such a treatment will inhibit the development of each remaining spore (few and no scale) of AFB. I personnally do this dipping in a flat square bucket while the foundations are already in the frame. A few seconds dipping is enough. ** No problem of legality : lauric acid is a minor component of the beeswax (1.5% of the acids) and it is maybe why we, beekeepers, never had any problem with the foundations made by the wax suppliers with the AFB contaminated beeswax from the wordlwide market... Hope this helps ! Jean-Marie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:32:40 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morten Brixtofte Petersen Subject: Re: Frame Bath (Lye) Hello ! Just a small warning: CAUTION: Lye wich is NaOH causes heat when dissolved in water. So do not use boiling water, as this could cause uncontrollable boiling (boil ower). Dissolve in cold water and then heat. regards Morten ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:46:09 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Apistan use and reuse. Asked and answered, again. Recent questions about the proper use and improper reuse of Apistan(R) prompted me to peruse the BEE-L archives, where I found the following posts from Malcolm Sanford and Jerry Worrell. Deja vu, all over again! Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) Volume 13, Number 2, February 1995 Copyright (c) 1995 M.T. Sanford "All Rights Reserved" ... FLUVALINATE--USE IT RIGHT OR LOSE IT! It is now official! Resistance to fluvalinate, the active ingredient in Apistan(R), has been found in Varroa mites. This was published in the February 1995 issue of Bee Culture (Vol. 123, No. 2, pp. 80-81) in "9th International Congress of Acarology," by E. Sugden, K. Williams and D. Sammataro. According to these authors: "The most ominous report came from Dr. Roberto Nannelli of Italy. He has found areas where Varroa mites are over 90 percent fluvalinate- resistant, and his claims have been confirmed by German sci- entists." Oscar Coindreau, representative of Sandoz Agro, the company that makes Apistan(R), also verified this report at the re- cent meeting of the American Beekeeping Federation in Austin, TX. He indicated that resistance was patchy in Italy, but in certain areas, Apistan(R) provided no control. And it doesn't take much resistance before Apistan(R) loses its effectiveness, according to Mr. Coindreau, because any- thing less than 99 percent control, is in reality, no con- trol. That's because mite populations tend to bounce back so readily in populous bee colonies. All investigators indicate that the cause of this resistance is not Apistan(R), but beekeepers' misuse of other formu- lations of fluvalinate. In Europe the product is called Klartan(R) and in the United States, Mavrik(R). All agree the use of these chemical products soaked into wooden strips, cardboard, paper towels, or in some cases, simply sprayed into colonies, is a certain recipe for developing resistant Varroa mites. Although considered "ominous" in Europe, in the United States resistant mites mean disaster. That's because most other countries of the world have alternative treatments that are legal. According to the authors of the article: "In general, European scientists felt that the best way to slow development of resistance in the mites is to have at least two types of treatment which could be applied alter- nately." This advice is mirrored in many other situations where possible resistance in organisms to pesticides and an- tibiotics exists (see "When Bugs Fight Back," APIS, Vol. 12, No. 11, November 1994, which follows this article). It turns out that some European countries even have three Varroa mite treatments to turn to, rotating Apistan(R) with formic acid and amitraz. In contrast to those in Europe, United States beekeepers have only one legal treatment, Apistan(R). The only other candidate treatment at the moment in the United States is formic acid. Although generally effective, there can be many complications in using this product, including, queen and worker loss even when applied correctly. It is also caustic, one reason it is not looked on favorably by regula- tory officials. According to one German researcher, efforts need to be increased to develop a formic acid-based product that is safe and foolproof, and can be registered quickly. The authors of the article, therefore, conclude: "It may not be a question of 'if' but only 'when and where' the first super-Varroa mites will show up in North America. This should serve a warning to all beekeepers to use control methods only as directed on their labels." The best way to ensure killing as many mites as possible without developing super Varroa resistant to fluvalinate is to use Apistan(R) right and only once. This philosophy, along with proper application recommendations, was published in the fall 1994, Apiculture Newsletter, published by the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, Guelph, Ontario, Canada. Here is what the authors (G. Grant, and M. Nasr, in consultation with L. Goczan of Sandoz Agro Canada) say in their article "Apistan Strips - Use'em Right, Use'em once!": "Apistan(R) is a plastic strip that contains a miticide, fluvalinate. Fluvalinate is a contact poison that kills Varroa mite. But Varroa mites must contact the right dose before they die. "Fluvalinate does not mix with water, but it does mix well with oils and waxes. As bees walk over the strip, the fluvalinate moves into the oils found on the surface of their bodies. When bees contact each other in the hive, the miticide is passed on. In a matter of hours all the bees in the hive are covered with fluvalinate. Adult mites that contact these bees will be killed by the miticide. "As fluvalinate is picked up from the surface of the strip the concentration drops. More fluvalinate then moves out from the center of the strip to the outside surface. The strip is designed to deliver the correct amount of miticide to the surface over the 42-day treatment period. "Eventually most of the fluvalinate is removed from the strip -- the strip is spent. There is no longer enough miticide left in the strip to kill Varroa mites.... "Why a 42-day treatment period? Worker bees take 21 days to develop from egg to adult. Drones need up to 24 days to de- velop. By leaving the strips in the hive for 42 days or two worker bee generations, all adult mites and their matured offspring will be exposed to the miticide. Remember, the mite must contact the fluvalinate in order to be killed. Mites in capped brood cells escape exposure until they emerge from the cell with the adult bee. "Why not leave strips in over winter? Because two potential problems might occur: 1. Residues- fluvalinate mixes with oils and waxes. Leav- ing strips in over winter might result in a build up of residues in the wax. 2. Resistance- mites are not equally susceptible to fluvalinate. Leaving mites in contact with spent strips may kill the most susceptible mites, leaving the more resistant mites to reproduce in their place." "Use one (1) strip for every five (5) frames covered by bees in brood boxes. Some strong hives may need three strips, some weak hives will only need one. Place strips down be- tween the frames so that they contact each side of the clus- ter. The average hive will likely need two. "Can Apistan strips be reused? No, with one exception. There is no sure way of knowing if enough fluvalinate re- mains in a strip to guarantee that it will work a second time. "The exception: If the strip was used once, only for three days to detect mites, and if the strip was then stored prop- erly between use, you might reuse the strip. You might re- use it for either detecting mites for a 3-day period or for one 42-day treatment. "Store strips in a cool, dry and dark location wrapped in aluminum foil in an air-tight bag. Avoid direct sunlight. Don't store strips near chemicals or pesticides. Don't store strips where they could contaminate food, feed or wa- ter. "In Ontario, Apistan(R) is registered as a Schedule 3 pesti- cide. As with other 'homeowner' products, strips are ap- proved for disposal in municipal landfills. Some municipalities have their own special requirements for dis- posal of Schedule 3 pesticides." In the United States, the instructions on the label are the law. They must be followed, even if varying from what the authors say in the above article or other writings on the subject. In addition, when applying Apistan(R), or any reg- istered chemical, the person must have in his possession a copy of the label. Thus, when it comes to Apistan(R), the old adage, "use it or lose it," must be modified. If U.S. beekeepers are to maxi- mize the utility of the one legal and effective treatment they have for Varroa, what many consider the most dangerous organism affecting beekeeping today, they must "use it right or lose it." >-------------------< Jerry Worrell of Dunkirk, MD posted the following from the newsletter of the Pierce County Beekeepers Association, concerning the reuse of Apistan strips. Those who have reused Apistan strips in the past may want to rethink that strategy. Reuse of Apistan Several persons have reported the reuse of Apistan after some modification of the surface of the strip. Testing of this method produced the following results: * New Strips = 809 ug of fluvalinate on surface * Visibly clean strips after 45 days of use = 201 ug (24.8%) * Slightly contaminated strips after 45 days = 142 ug (17.6%) * After 45 days: brushed with electric wire wheel = 110 ug (13.6%) * After 45 days: planed on each side of strip = 70 ug (8.7%) * After 6 months use (over winter) = 38 ug (4.7%) Obviously using the strips beyond the 45 days required on the product label significantly reduces the amount of chemi- cal available to kill mites. Altering the surface of the strips actually reduced the amount of chemical available. Having low, sub-lethal levels of chemical in the presence of an organism raises the opportunity for the development of resistance to the product. Any reuse of Apistan is prohib- ited by the label and now we know it is counter productive and may produce Varroa resistance to fluvalinate. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:56:37 EDT Reply-To: rgendrea@foxboro.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roland Gendreau Subject: Wasp/Bumblebee info I am on the Fair Committee of my local beekeeper's association, responsible for putting our club's display together for use at the various fairs that we participate in. The theme we have chosen this year is to try to educate the public on the differences between Honeybees, Wasps, bumblees etc. We are trying to locate some good photographs or pictorials that we can incorporate into our display to illustrate these different insects. Does anyone have a suggestion where we could get materials of this sort? We would be willing to borrow them if that is practical or purchase them if need be. Roland Gendreau rgendrea@foxboro.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:59:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Captured Swarm REGARDING RE>Captured Swarm Charles (Rick) Grubbs writes, in response to the earlier response by Ted Fischer: "> However, I would like to comment that this swarm came from a known feral > colony, so obviously the parent colony got through the winter without mite > control measures. I would watch this new colony carefully - it may show signs > of varroa resistance, and be a valuable resource for you. Watch the feral > colony, too, to see whether it will survive the year intact. Would you suggest not treating this hive with Apistan?" This is kind of a hard call. If you have other hives, my thought would be to keep this one as an experimental colony, and withhold the Apistan. Let me paste here a call for volunteers in a mite resistance study: "The USDA-ARS Bee Breeding Genetics and Physiology Laboratory is looking for honey bees resistant to Varroa mites. Honey bees that have survived for more than a year without being treated and/or those in abandoned hives are ideal candidates. If you have knowledge of candidate queens, then do yourself and the industry a favor by contacting the Lab, 1157 Ben Hur Rd., Baton Rouge, LA 70820-5502, ph 504/767-9280, FAX 504/766-9212, email: trindere@asrr.arsusda.gov. " You may want to cont act this lab for their advice. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:39:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Reuse of old good frames REGARDING Reuse of old good frames Jeffrey Tooker writes: "I have several deep hive bodies which I got from my brother. They are in reasonably good shape. He has not used them for a couple of years, and I do not know their history. I can repaint the outsides but I do not know what to do hygenically for the inside. (I hope the answer is not kitchen matches)" Before deciding to reuse frames, check them for AFB scales by holding them so that light shines on the lower surfaces of the cells. AFB scales show up as dark concave flat things in contaminated cells. If you see these, or if there are scattered capped cells with punctured surfaces, then put them to the match. Otherwise, they are perfectly good for reuse. Bees will clean up an incredible amount of dirt, mold, dead bees, etc., and will even fix up frames damaged by mice. However, they do not like frames damaged by wax moths, unless it is very minor. These I usually burn, if I am so careless as to let moths into a dead hive. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:07:40 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: SPAM (Rant begins here...) > A BREAKTHROUGH INVENTION THAT WILL AFFECT THE HONEY PRODUCTION AND > THE IMMEDIATE AND LONG TERM HEALTH OF THE BEES... > > Johann Popodi is a passionate beekeeper who recognized the VARROA > problem very early. He was not happy with available means of > treating the mites (using strips), due to the toxic nature of the > chemicals and the side effects that it had on both the bees and the > honey. Bulltweet! I've been tolerant and polite so far, but we are being *spammed*. In Canada we have laws against false advertising and making unsubstantiated or outright false claims as these guys are. BEE-L accepts single one time postings of reasonable and honest (non-commercial) requests for buyers and sellers of relevant items -- posted occasionally -- with considerable restraint by the list members. The postings about this device does not qualify under several of those criteria. Beware. If you know anything about formic or bees, you can see there are misrepresentations in the ads being posted on BEE-L. The price? Well I can tell you where to buy pads for application in effective, approved methods that are recommended by well known and respected Canadian researchers for about $0.03 each. Frankly, if I see another SPAM here about that thing, I'm going to forward it directly to Consumer & Corporate Affairs, the department that deals with such. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:07:40 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Maybe a use for used strips? > "Can Apistan strips be reused? No, with one exception. > There is no sure way of knowing if enough fluvalinate re- > mains in a strip to guarantee that it will work a second > time. > > "The exception: If the strip was used once, only for three days > to detect mites, and if the strip was then stored prop- erly > between use, you might reuse the strip. You might re- use it > for either detecting mites for a 3-day period or for one 42-day > treatment. I know that many (frugal) beekeepers will not bee able to resist trying to re-use strips no matter how we reiterate the gospel. This is false economy of the worst sort, HOWEVER I have heard one idea that seems to me to be harmless and perhaps beneficial and will satisfy the need to wring every last drop of usefulness from each strip without going to far from the letter of the label. (Comments are welcome, here, 'cause maybe I'm going out on a limb). IF the correct number of new strips are put in according to the label, and there is some question of whether another half strip *might* be called for, placing a (marked) used strip or two in the hive -- WITH the good new strip(s) -- will supply some additional unknown amount of additional pesticide, and satisfy the beekeeper's urge to 'use it right up', while doing some unknown amount of good. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 06:46:00 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: bee treatments Treatments Man oh man what a bunch of continuous talk about how to use drugs within the bee hive. It all makes me even more thankful for living in Hawaii with out the mites. Every other posting is about some body's different idea about how to use these DRUGS in bee hives . It really makes me wonder a lot about the integrity of honey from places with mites. Will we some day have to out law the human consumption of honey from mite infested lands . When will everyone accept that we are lucky to have treatments available and that the exact labeling procedures must be followed. I wonder if there are penalties for improper application of DRUGS to bee hives. My posting several weeks ago about what testing brought me a few responses and my belief is that there is no mandated testing required of honey. I heard about packers spot checking honey for sugar and I heard nothing about required testing. What going to happen next. Will someone have to get sick or what. Surly if the F D A got involved with controlling the quality of honey reaching the American dinner table all bee keepers will suffer.,and who knows maybe this is the way of the future given all the honeybee disease and pest invading U S bees. What drugs or back yard remedies might emerge with the recent introduction of multiple strains of viruses from wherever they are coming from. Maybe the future of U S (mainland) beekeeping will be strictly for food pollination and the honey will be used for animal feed. Anyone wanting U S produced honey without the possibility of DRUG contamination should contact a Hawaiian bee keeper. We don't use anything more then some terrimycin and that is very infrequently. Hoping it works out in a safe and best way. By the way if anyone would like to start bee keeping in Hawaii there are 800 existing working hives for sale here in Paradise . Contact me for more information if interested. Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:01:33 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: AFB eradication RE; Frame washing In the last several days many postings have been about washing frames. Does this suggest that the frames can be made clean of AFB & EFB or is this just a way for the beekeeper to TRY to recycle some equipment that is deemed too expensive to burn . I do not know the answer. I have been told that the spores live a long time (100"s of years )and that treatment for AFB will be needed after washing the frames. This brings me to another point regarding the way that New Zealand has their border closed to honey and other bee hive products under the pretense of attempting to eradicate AFB and EFB. The NZ bee people claim to have a AFB eradication program in place and as such they deny the entry of hive products as well as bee and bee equipment. Many old time bee keepers have told me that it is impossible to eradicate AFB in honeybees with feral bees and managed bee hives with out AFB knowledge and or treatment. WE in Hawaii are thinking about a program like the NZ AFB eradication program to keep all honey and related bee hive products away from Hawaii. Our honey would surly be worth more money with out the competition of the mainland packers and their "BLENDED" foreign honey on the grocery shelf. Any comments. Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:36:17 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray Reid Subject: Bleach and Bacteria -Reply OUr ref is Goodwin et al annual report...in the mail Other place for this sort of thing is Morse et al HB Pest Predators etc Chapter 21 Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:41:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Dealing with the dead - advice? If they're not starving, they're swarming. If it's not bad wintering, it's acarine. If it's not AFB, its pesticides. If it's not varroa, it's the damn wax moths. Always something. Oh boy aint we got fun. Well by now I've found about 10 colonies dead. So far. I can deal with that, I guess. Could have been worse. Some were a mess with dysentery, all still with plenty of stores, clusters mostly scattered all through, crazy; they were in distress from something, likely acarine. I just load all the dead hives on the truck and get them home for cleaning up (and do they ever smell ripe!). Much of the dysentery, mildew, and masses of dead bees can be scraped and brushed off, leaving the combs clean enough for new bees to fix up. It always amazes me what a new colony will accomplish with such a mess. BUT - With the lack of swarms nowadays, I fear I won't have the new bees I need! So now I have a total of some 25-30 brood boxes, many with lots of sour or granulated honey, sitting without any bees to take care of them. Sure, many will end up being used for housing divisions, but what to do with the rest? I don't wish to buy packages (scarce anyway), and I don't have access to a walk-in freezer. Still, I dont want to lose all these good worker combs to moths. With so many combs containing old pollen and honey, how can I save this equipment for eventual use? (Para-dichlorobenzene moth balls are commonly used with dry super combs in storage, but I don't think they would be safe in this case (??)) (Help!) Thanks, JWG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:26:16 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: AFB eradication -Reply Walter, Maybe its about time you stop criticising New Zealand from afar and spent some money so see New Zealand beekeeping first hand. I am sure you could pick up some useful tips of the "DRUG FREE" control of AFB (not terrmycin here), not to mention get a first hand look at our "EXOTIC PEST AND DISEASE RESPONSE" system. Our border protection and EDPR system are very efficient at stoping the incursion of unwanted exotics right across agriculture. It's for this reason that NEW ZEALAND has preferred supplier status for a number of agricultural markets. Regards, Robert Rice Apiculture Service Manager (South Island) Ministry of Agriculture. NEW ZEALAND ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:21:51 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Q: Wave cloth, does it work? In a book I read recently ( the title evades me at the moment) mentioned using a pole with a cloth or two hanging from it as a calming influence on bees. The idea being that the bees get use to have motion around the hive so a less likely to defend when someone walks by. _______________ " " | " " XXXXXX | XXXXXX XXXXXX | XXXXXX XXXXXX | XXXXXX XXXXXX | XXXXXX XXXXXX | XXXXXX | | | | | | Above a pole with two towels that would move in the wind. Does this really work? Anyone ever try it on a cranky hive? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:15:44 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: bee treatments -Reply Walter, I quote from you > >Anyone wanting U S produced honey without the possibility of DRUG >contamination should contact a Hawaiian bee keeper. We don't use >anything more then some terrimycin and that is very infrequently. >Hoping it works out in a safe and best way. For one who is so scathing about New Zealand's disease status, I thought it interesting that you don't consider terrimycin a drug; is that the correct implication of your statement. From the Collins English Dictionary I quote " Drug - any synthetic or natural chemical substance used in the treatment, prevention, or diagnosis of a disease." Exactly for which disease do you use terrimycin in Hawaii ? In New Zealand it is illegal to even use terrimycin, and has we are mite free there is no use of apistan or other such chemicals; the use of which in beehives would be illegal anyway unless the laws were changed. So if you want really pure DRUG FREE HONEY you had better buy it from New Zealand. Regards, Robert Rice Apiculture Service Manager (South Island) Ministry of Agriculture NEW ZEALAND ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:45:53 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wilson Subject: Rob or open barrel feeding of bees. I am a new subscriber to BEE-L. What a wonderful thing! Thank you Allen Dick for providing the access info on your home page. I have a question about rob or open barrel feeding. All the bee literature I read cautions against rob feeding for the disease spreading aspect etc. But has anyone done any research on this to really support this or is this just a common sense type of thing; something passed down from our forefathers? A lot of beekeepers in Alberta do practice rob feeding. I think in most other jurisdictions the practice is illegal or frowned upon. It is a recent thing in Alberta since wintering became the only way to go since the U.S.border was closed to package bees in 1987. If any one can provide me with any info on research done on open barrel or rob feeding I'd be grateful.Also if you have any positive comments about the practice other than that it is quick and easy I'd look forward to seeing them. Thanks, Peter Wilson. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:50:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply to robert, walter and the others, hey you bunch of babies, when are you going to stop teasing each other? if you want to continue doing these childish taunts, please do so privately and stop wasting the time of the other readers of the list with this drivel. this is the kind of nonsense that makes lists go out of business. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:41:25 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply -Reply John, I'm sorry if you see the provision of factual information as "DRIVEL". If you consult previous e-mails on this topic you will see that I have only made 2 responses to Walters comments which I too see as "TEASING". I also agree that to much of this type of e-mail detracts from the function of the list. However, if the list is to be a public forum for the expression of ideas and the exchange of information, then by definition an individual has the right to express an opinion. Besides, one also, as I do daily, have the right to delete unread e-mail from BEE-L if the contents of the E-mail is not of interest. Therefore I suggest and do as I do, delete e-mail that is not of interest. One additional comment. Often e-mail can be like junk mail in your letter box, unsolicited but sometimes interesting to read. Besides for a lot of people it makes the list a little more interesting to have the odd difference of the opinion expressed. Robert Rice Apicultural Service Manager (South Island) Ministry of Agriculture New Zealand. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:26:36 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Lack of feral swarms In-Reply-To: On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Michael Lance High Sr. wrote: > I recived 4 packages of bees this week which I installed to replace > swarms lost over the winter.The weather has been warm here in central Va. > for several weeks,and usually during this time,scouts from feral colonies > will be out investigating my hives.This year, since they were empty, I > expected many vistors.Eerily, not one bee have I observed.More ominously, > there is a telling absence of bees on dandelions & fruit blossoms in my area. > I had'nt noticed how empty it seemed until I installed my new > bees.Suddenly, it seemed more normal.Today, I took a walk in the woods to > scout out any feral swarms working in the warm air.For the first time in > my 25 years of bee-keeping, I found NOT 1 feral colony. It appears that > mites have decimated colonies for several miles around me.To my > knowledge, I am the only bee-keeper for at least 5 miles.The absence of > wild colonies, while alarming,gives me some hope that my new swarms may > not be as readily infected this year since bee to bee contact will be > limited.What truely frightens me is the extinction of the wild bees.While > this opens foraging for my swarms,it means a heavy decline in pollination > for miles around.This underscores the seriousness of the mite problems > now facing the American honey bee.It would seem the survial of the > species is now seriously in jepordy. > MLHigh > > "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter > Hello , I helped my best friend move this last weekend in Bremerton Washington.We have fruit trees blooming all over and no bees.More and more people are asking me where the bees are this year. I tell them dead and explain about the mite.Hobby beekeepers are very important in towns where people have fruit trees in there back yards. I'm afraid that there numbers will stay down and keep going down.I had a 83 year old beekeeper friend stop by today with his Wife and asked me some questions about using apistan.We have a huckelberry flow going on now and he wants the honey. I told him that he had a choice , bees or honey. The flow goes on untill June so he can get some honey after he runs the strip for 28 days. I know around here in western washington , the V mite has cleaned house.This summer will be interesting , the media will get into the picture , not because of beekeepers, but because of back yard gardeners.We have a lot of backyard gardeners here in washington.The feral colonys are about history around here , but we have a chance with hobby beekeepers.Everything is not gloom and doom.We will beat this mite with hard work and helping each other.This is a world wide problem and it will take a world wide solution.By sharring information we will speed up the solution.Good communication will help all of us deal with the mite. I think it is important to see how few feral colonys we have in different places where we have Varroa. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Heavy winter losses more stories I posted a similar note some weeks ago but this one has a slight twist I found interesting. A beekeeper in central NY state running several hundred colonies reports extensive winter losses due to varroa. Last spring he purchased 5 frame nucs from the south. The nucs were hived in April and immeadiatly given a single, new Apistan strip, properly hung between the frames. The colonies grew well and in mid June he removed the strips before supering. At that time he did ether rolls in each yard and could find very few mites. When he began honey harvest in mid August, just 8 weeks later he found his colonies dying already. Each had several supers of honey but most had few bees. Many bees were crawling at the entrance and they were heavily infested with varroa. I tend to belive the problem was reinfestation because its unlikly the mites could reproduce that fast. But maybe the mites are changing and they can ? Central NY again. State inspector reports finding hives that had rescently died (mid summer). The hives had no live bees, lots of honey and thousands of varroa running over the frames ("like fleas") apparently living on remaining brood. He also observed many bees robbing the honey and speculates they were picking up hitchhikers to bring home. Western NY - commercial beekeeper observed while scraping his deadouts , hives with "bee parts" strewn over the top bars and on the frames. He stated "it was like they fell apart". I'm wondering if this could be septicemia ? Is any one out there familiar with this ? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:13:15 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Concave brood In-Reply-To: Terra patties or any other medication, should not be left in the hive when producing honey for human consumption. This cannot be stressed strongly enough. If you want to keep patties on the bees to control "T"mites, leave out the terramycin. The shortning is waht does the job on the mites. Terramycian only needs to be fed twice a year on producing colonies. I personaly remove all medication 4 weeks prior to puting on honey supers for harvest. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:08:01 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply At 03:50 PM 4/16/96 -0700, you wrote: >to robert, walter and the others, > >hey you bunch of babies, when are you going to stop teasing each >other? if you want to continue doing these childish taunts, please >do so privately and stop wasting the time of the other readers of the >list with this drivel. > >this is the kind of nonsense that makes lists go out of business. > The whole thing sounds more in earnest to me than teasing. However well said John. I have been on other lists where there was an awful lot of discension and this is real bad news. I feel that this list does not need the discension, nor in truth can the list afford it. In my short time on this list I have come to some conclusions. First people, bees and beekeeping worldwide are in crisis. Not just from the standpoint of economics for the beekeepers, but consider world wide agriculture without bees domestic or feral. Secondly this list is comprised of less than six hunderd people world wide. I do not know how many beekeepers there are world wide, however I would believe that the members of the list comprise only a small portion of that group. I do not know where the solutions will come from, but I think some of them will go out through the net and this list to the rest of beekeeperdom. Mans collective knowledge/information has always been one of his greatest tools. The net and the list allow us to leverage this tool to a very high degree, and we may need all the leverage we can get to control diseases and pests in domestic bees. Knowledge/information from the net and the list will have a great bearing on the crisis. So for as trite as it sounds we should be like the bees, working together in resonable harmony for the common good. I have said my piece now I will wait for your response good or bad. Thank You Jeffrey R. Tooker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:26:51 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Q: Wave cloth, does it work? In-Reply-To: <9604162221.AA29193@us3rmc.pa.dec.com> Hi Jim I have used the item in question and it does work. It has two pieces of canvas sewn to a rod which is bent into a rectangular shape. The canvas is also weighted on the opposite ends. The idea is that only one frame is exposed at a time. It is a real pain to use but it you have a nasty tempered hive it is worth the trouble Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:50:24 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Rob or open barrel feeding of bees. In-Reply-To: I recently purchased Baggie feeders . They work very well and best of all no robbing, no jars, and no drowned bees. A baggie feeder is a super approximately 2 deep placed on the hive under the inner cover. 1 gallon baggies are filled with 3 qts syrup and then placed directly over the cluster. 2 two inch slits are then made in the baggiesand a small amount is squeezed out onto the cluster so that they know it is there. A strong colony will empty them in short order. I haven t tried it but I think an empty 5 3/4 super would work just as well. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:12:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Dealing with the dead - advice? You can take the dead and place the boxes below your strong colines and they will clean them up were you can extract and store them with moth crystals. By placing them below at least most of the dead naterial will not be pulled across your good combs. I would advise that at the very least you dust with Terramyacin during the clean up as a preventative. Dean Brreaux Hybri-Bees 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City Florida 33525 352-521-0164 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply At 10:15 4/17/96 +1200, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: Robert Rice >Subject: bee treatments -Reply >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Walter, > >I quote from you > >>Anyone wanting U S produced honey without the possibility of DRUG >>contamination should contact a Hawaiian bee keeper. We don't use >>anything more then some terrimycin and that is very infrequently. >>Hoping it works out in a safe and best way. > >For one who is so scathing about New Zealand's disease status, I >thought it interesting that you don't consider terrimycin a drug; is that the >correct implication of your statement. From the Collins English Dictionary I >quote " Drug - any synthetic or natural chemical substance used in the >treatment, prevention, or diagnosis of a disease." > >Exactly for which disease do you use terrimycin in Hawaii ? > >In New Zealand it is illegal to even use terrimycin, and has we are mite >free there is no use of apistan or other such chemicals; the use of which >in beehives would be illegal anyway unless the laws were changed. > >So if you want really pure DRUG FREE HONEY you had better buy it from >New Zealand. > >Regards, > >Robert Rice >Apiculture Service Manager (South Island) >Ministry of Agriculture >NEW ZEALAND > Really, folks, This arguement between New Zealand and Hawaii is getting old. IMHO, you guys are taking up too much bandwidth, that people have to pay for, with meaningless "punch trading". Can we please put a lid on it? Does anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one? Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA Don't cuss! Call Gus. He'll cuss for both of us. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply At 03:50 4/16/96 -0700, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: John Day >Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >to robert, walter and the others, > >hey you bunch of babies, when are you going to stop teasing each >other? if you want to continue doing these childish taunts, please >do so privately and stop wasting the time of the other readers of the >list with this drivel. > >this is the kind of nonsense that makes lists go out of business. > AMEN! Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA Don't cuss! Call Gus. He'll cuss for both of us. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply -Reply At 11:41 4/17/96 +1200, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: Robert Rice >Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply -Reply >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >John, > >I'm sorry if you see the provision of factual information as "DRIVEL". If >you consult previous e-mails on this topic you will see that I have only >made 2 responses to Walters comments which I too see as "TEASING". I >also agree that to much of this type of e-mail detracts from the function >of the list. However, if the list is to be a public forum for the expression >of ideas and the exchange of information, then by definition an individual >has the right to express an opinion. Besides, one also, as I do daily, >have the right to delete unread e-mail from BEE-L if the contents of the >E-mail is not of interest. Therefore I suggest and do as I do, delete e-mail >that is not of interest. What a crock! Give us a break! I read this kind of response every time people get on their high horses and don't want to come down. You guys grow up and quit wasting people's time and money. > >One additional comment. Often e-mail can be like junk mail in your letter >box, unsolicited but sometimes interesting to read. Besides for a lot of >people it makes the list a little more interesting to have the odd difference >of the opinion expressed. It's only interesting when their's actual value to it. So far this has been valueless arguing about who's the best (like arguing who has the tougher dad). Who cares! > >Robert Rice >Apicultural Service Manager (South Island) >Ministry of Agriculture >New Zealand. > Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA Don't cuss! Call Gus. He'll cuss for both of us. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:23:43 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Captured Swarm >*************************** >* Charles (Rick) Grubbs * >* digital@avana.net * >* Douglasville, Ga SE USA * >*************************** > Hi Charles; Simply, this swarm may be an after swarms , owing to the chirping of the queens in the queen cells in the tree, place an excluder between the bottom and top super(box), place the new swarms in the top box, and in two or three weeks observe where the brood is, if brood is in each box,place the brood and bees into nucs or hives, increasing your hive numbers. Wether or not there will be any more swarms, only time will tell. Have a look at "Control of Swarming" on our home page, the URL is below in my signature, and good luck with your beekeeping. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:44:15 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: more old frames To continue the thread, I agree about using caution on old frames that may harbor AFB, but, I depend on trees for my honey, and being a conservationist at heart I can't see tossing all old frames. Most of my old frames are generated by blow-outs that the wax moths beat me to. Most of these blow-outs can be attributed to queen failure, and I monitor my operation closely for disease and I do not tolerate any AFB symptoms. So I build up a supply of old frames and every couple of years have a big boil-up in the winter followed by a scrape-out and then a refitting of foundation. I just finished rehabbing about 100 deeps worth of old frames and they look good and are on the bees as we speak waiting to be drawn out. I have calculated the cost of reuse versus new and the reuse comes out ahead by about 40 percent, and I feel a lot better about the tree situation. The status report on north central North Carolina is cautious optimism. I had very low overwintering losses and the bees look pretty good considering the cold spring we have had. I have found a few swarm cells and expect the main honey flow to start in 10 days. There is very strong demand for hives for cucumber pollination in these parts, in fact, supply does not meet demand. Bill Lord Louisburg, NC -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 05:52:41 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Don't try this at home, kids > To continue the thread, I agree about using caution on old frames > that may harbor AFB, but, I depend on trees for my honey, and being > a conservationist at heart I can't see tossing all old frames. Most > of my old frames are generated by blow-outs that the wax moths beat > me to. Most of these blow-outs can be attributed to queen failure, > and I monitor my operation closely for disease and I do not tolerate > any AFB symptoms. So I build up a supply of old frames and every > couple of years have a big boil-up in the winter followed by a > scrape-out and then a refitting of foundation. I just finished > rehabbing about 100 deeps worth of old frames and they look good and > are on the bees as we speak waiting to be drawn out. > > I have calculated the cost of reuse versus new and the reuse comes > out ahead by about 40 percent, and I feel a lot better about the > tree situation. Well, we've gone through this a time or two before (Aug - Oct 94?), with some interesting input from Down Under. Without going into great detail again, I'll just say that the furor over AFB and other diseases in North America seems to be to a large extent promoted by the new equipment purveyors and government agencies who used them to justify their own existence. The latter kept the AFB going by recommending drug does that were just a little less than what was needed to really knock it down and out, but enough to suppress it very temporarily. AFB, EFB, and nosema can be controlled with the normal drugs applied wisely and in correct measure -- without a scorch and boil routine. There is no reason to boil frames unless you think you might be in an area wgere there are no other sources of contamination than your own hives. Where I keep bees, there are other beekeepers, feral hives, hobby beekeepers scattered around and homes where people throw old honey containers in the garbage which is sometimes then scattered by dogs. (AFAIK this honey is not from NZ (where there is no _official_ AFB -- or consequent clandestine TM treatment) -- nor Hawaii (where all the bees are known to be healthy until until they are overwhelmed by escaped NZ bees on their way to Canada). It is likely from the USA, or heaven forbid, even Canada where -- as we have recently heard from a credible source -- diseases and chemicals run rampant). We see a little foulbrood from time to time (in less than 1% of our hives) but I have to tell you that it is always due to the fact that in a large outfit sometimes groups of hives are missed in medicating -- sometimes for long periods of time. We do not scorch boxes, we do not boil frames, and quite frankly, we don't worry about the odd cell of scale when making up brood chambers, We try to look at all the combs, but there is always some scale that hides out under pollen or honey, or is just plain missed. We do have to work on cloudy days sometimes. When we find scale, if the comb is otherwise good, we flatten the cells somewhat to help loosen the scale (bees have trouble removing much scale unless they are strong and the weather is warm) and use those frames right in the middle of a brood chamber. We make sure those hives are well medicated and within the year they are no more likely to break down with disease than any other. I know that people are going to find this hard to believe, but Phillips was quoted years ago as syaing he would buy nothing but AFB equipment because it was so cheap and so easy to clean up. This was back when sulpha was allowed. It was the magic bullet against AFB, but we've found TM to be just as good, just not as persistent. Now I'm not trying to suggest that everyone can or should do this. I'm just trying to point out that most environments have a background level of AFB, and making your hive a perfectly AFB free area may keep *you* out of trouble Friday nights, but chances are it doesn't do much for your bees. Boiling your woodenware in lye does not increase its strength. Scorching your boxes does not make them stronger. If, and only if you are planning to avoid the use of drugs, and live in total isolation, -- or live in a country where TM is not allowed -- are these measures likely to do a whole lot of good. But I know people will continue to believe in these practices, and they don't do much harm. However, if you are moving up to commercial from hobbyist and find your days are short as you find more new work than you can handle, this is something you can give up without any loss at all. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 06:09:54 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Trolls on BEE-L > This arguement between New Zealand and Hawaii is getting old. IMHO, > you guys are taking up too much bandwidth, that people have to pay > for, with meaningless "punch trading". Can we please put a lid on > it? > > Does anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one? Well, now the response to the trolls is getting heavier than the trolls themselves. Let's just ignore this tomfoolery. I just put turkeys in my Pegasus 'rules' file and they are *never* heard from again. If you have a filter available you can get rid of anyone -- even me. Or you can just filter out certain subjects. Just remember, folks, that if you get mixed up in this stuff and then want to make a serious post, or e-mail people, that you just won't exist once your are 'killed'. If no one replies when you write to them, it means that they may have quietly killed you. Only scrappers write to tell you that they stuck you in the kill file. The rest of us just throw you in the trash can and carry on. While we're on this -- e-mail is forever. Every post that you make here is available for your boss, your kids, and your peers to read in perpetuity. The logs go back to 1988 and look as if they will be kept forever. If you post on USENET, you can see if you were always sober when you did so by visiting dejanews' site and searching for your own name. Hmmm. Ignore the trolls, or you become one. I wonder -- what does this say about me? FWIW Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:29:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Lars Lutton (614)593-2669" Subject: Re: Q: Wave cloth, does it work? In-Reply-To: <9604162221.AA29193@us3rmc.pa.dec.com> Ormond Aebi/"Art and Adventure of Beekeeping" and "Mastering the Art of Beekeeping" goes into some detail on setups as you descibe for quieting aggressive colonies. He further advocates the use of old clothing to condition the bees to scent of new keepers-LAL/SE Ohio USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:13:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: - Ed Levi Subject: Re: Rob or open barrel feeding of bees. Think about this for a minute. Besides the risk of spreading diseases; which colonies are going to benefit the most from open feeding? If you have a yard with some hives stronger than others, you ought to be bringing the weaker ones up to par. In open feeding, the stronger ones, those needing it least, are going to be the ones to profit the most. As far as the spread of diseases/pests, I don't know if it's documented, but common sence indicates that it sure would increase risk. Personally, I'd advise against it. Bee well, Ed Levi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:20:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply I agree with the comments about people trying to best each other. I am a hobbyist and have lost hives to mites like most people. However, I have "learned a lot" from this List from those of you with experience. I also do not like my time and money "wasted" by people fighting and or arguing with each other. Al Needham Scituate, Mass. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:40:58 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply Robert Rice writes: >In New Zealand it is illegal to even use terrimycin, and has we are mite >free there is no use of apistan or other such chemicals; the use of which >in beehives would be illegal anyway unless the laws were changed. For writing about this he was (in my opinion) very unfairly criticized by other list members. May I remind them, that by not editing his letter in their "flames" they much increased the size of the list archives. That is the real junk mail. For my part I found Robert's posting fascinating? What is the AFB control program in New Zealand. Do you just burn everything? There has been some recent discussion on the list about frame baths. Are they legal? What about ethylene dioxide, or radiation? And what about EFB? Do you have it in New Zealand? What control measures do you use for it, if you do? Thank you for your time responding, Stan Sandler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:48:15 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: septicemia Septicemia is sort of a generalized term meaning infection of the host by bacteria. Insects with this usually are very flacid, and break apart easily. Some viral infections Sac brood also cause the insect to appear like a water balloon and burst to dissseminate propagules. Was there evidence of wet flacid cadavers or were the parts dry. If dry it may have been post mortum munching by scavengers. Mike > Western NY - commercial beekeeper observed while scraping his >deadouts , hives with "bee parts" strewn over the top bars and on the >frames. He stated "it was like they fell apart". I'm wondering if this >could be septicemia ? Is any one out there familiar with this ? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin R. Palm" Subject: Re: bee treatments Folks, I don't normally post to the list that often, being a beginner I lurk in order to glean the wisdom of MOST of my fellow BEE-L members. But one person in particular has prompted me to post this message : Walter Patton. How DARE he condemn beekeepers like myself and the majority of listmembers who have to deal with the mites and diseases we encounter on a daily basis!! I'm all for difference of opinion, it's one of the things that make this list a valuable resource. Mr. Patton's posts do not seem to be springing from an honest difference of opinion, but from a childish "I'm better than you" type of mentality. In case you hadn't noticed, Mr. Patton, most of the beekeepers on this list try to find ways to HELP each other, rather than attack each other for having to deal with problems they've never had to face. Why don't you leave your "Paradise" for a while and see how the rest of us have to live before you start spouting your useless, inflammatory rhetoric!! Sorry to go off like this, but this last post really got to me!! Kevin Palm -- Kevin R. Palm | Beekeeper (1 hive, 2nd year) Grafton, Ohio | Red Dwarf/Babylon 5/NYPD Blue/ER/Pooh fan (25 miles SW of Cleveland) | Ivanova is God aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu | Member IECC/IECG/NOST/WTECC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply >At 10:15 4/17/96 +1200, you wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >>Poster: Robert Rice >>Subject: bee treatments -Reply >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>----- >> >>Walter, >> >>I quote from you > >>>Anyone wanting U S produced honey without the possibility of DRUG >>>contamination should contact a Hawaiian bee keeper. We don't use >>>anything more then some terrimycin and that is very infrequently. >>>Hoping it works out in a safe and best way. >> >>For one who is so scathing about New Zealand's disease status, I >>thought it interesting that you don't consider terrimycin a drug; is that the >>correct implication of your statement. From the Collins English Dictionary I >>quote " Drug - any synthetic or natural chemical substance used in the >>treatment, prevention, or diagnosis of a disease." >> >>Exactly for which disease do you use terrimycin in Hawaii ? >> >>In New Zealand it is illegal to even use terrimycin, and has we are mite >>free there is no use of apistan or other such chemicals; the use of which >>in beehives would be illegal anyway unless the laws were changed. >> >>So if you want really pure DRUG FREE HONEY you had better buy it from >>New Zealand. >> >>Regards, >> >>Robert Rice >>Apiculture Service Manager (South Island) >>Ministry of Agriculture >>NEW ZEALAND >> > >Really, folks, > >This arguement between New Zealand and Hawaii is getting old. IMHO, you >guys are taking up too much bandwidth, that people have to pay for, with >meaningless "punch trading". Can we please put a lid on it? > >Does anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one? > > >Mike Wallace >Bkeeper1@why.net >McKinney, Texas USA >Don't cuss! Call Gus. He'll cuss for both of us. Mike - Right on! Barry Birkey bbirkey@interaccess.com West Chicago, Il. USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:02:42 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: bee size and altimeters In-Reply-To: <199604151523.MAA07578@bud.peinet.pe.ca> from "Stan Sandler" at Apr 15, 96 12:23:35 pm Hi: We make the pollen grids - too costly for general use. Years ago, I found some beekeepers using a European plastic grid with star-shaped holes. If anyone knows where I could get some of these, I would be thrilled. We use plastic for our experiments because the metal grids add zinc and other contaminants to the samples that we analyze for environmental pollutants. As to why the bees varied in size in our Seattle studies - I am sure foundation supplier variability, old versus new comb, and maybe even races of bees entered into the equation. We didn't address the why, only which trap worked. The "fat" bees after dropping 3,000 feet in elevation is a mystery. Thanks Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:11:30 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <316ECE74@felipe.telefonica.com.ar> from "Walter Lipari" at Apr 12, 96 01:41:00 pm Hi: We are working on adding pages for kids and general information for beekeepers to our web pages. First things first, we need things for kids - trivia questions, maybe some pictures that could be used as coloring book pages, puzzles, etc. Anything we put on the web must be in the public domain or we need to have written authorization from the person or group holding the copyrights. We have a high quality scanner and will credit our sources. If you have anything we can use, please send them to me at: Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Division of Biological of Sciences The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, Montana 59812-1002 http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:32:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Lazy bees? Last year I restarted with two new colonies. They were given existing comb in addition to new frames of foundation. For whatever reason, they chose not to draw comb on some of the new frames. Not having anything else to put in the hive, I moved the frames around, putting the empty ones to the outside of the brood chambers, and the full ones to the center. Now, after having inspected the hives several times since February, it appears that they chewed the wax off of some of the frames, and drew some wax in small scattered areas. There is brood in some of the small areas of wax, so I cannot remove those frames. Were my bees lazy? Why would they choose not to draw comb, but instead chew the foundation? What is the best way to replace the foundation considering that there is brood present? When is the latest that I can replace the foundation so that I do not run into this problem again? On another subject, many thanks to those who gave me advice and suggestions against using Diazinon in my garden (all my e-mail was inadvertently mass-deleted, fortunately, _after_ I read them). Laura Downey corvi29@smart.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:56:31 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: bee treatments Comments: To: "Kevin R. Palm" In-Reply-To: <199604171352.AA09033@freenet> On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Kevin R. Palm wrote: > Folks, > > I don't normally post to the list that often, being a beginner I lurk > in order to glean the wisdom of MOST of my fellow BEE-L members. But one > person in particular has prompted me to post this message : Walter Patton. How > DARE he condemn beekeepers like myself and the majority of listmembers who have > to deal with the mites and diseases we encounter on a daily basis!! I'm all for > difference of opinion, it's one of the things that make this list a valuable > resource. Mr. Patton's posts do not seem to be springing from an honest > difference of opinion, but from a childish "I'm better than you" type of > mentality. In case you hadn't noticed, Mr. Patton, most of the beekeepers on > this list try to find ways to HELP each other, rather than attack each other for > having to deal with problems they've never had to face. Why don't you leave > your "Paradise" for a while and see how the rest of us have to live before you > start spouting your useless, inflammatory rhetoric!! > > Sorry to go off like this, but this last post really got to > Hi Kevin and all, I hate to prolong this negative ,childish that has been going on for a couple of days. It has no place on this list,we love our bees and we all have different problems because of the different enviornments we live in. I sell honey from hives with no medication at all. I have some hives that I treat that I can't sell to my big market in Seattle.We in the Us have Varroa and it is a real pain. Don't worry everyone will get it if they have ships comming into there harbors.It is just a matter of time. If I was in one of the places that do not have the mite , I would be gleaning all the info that I could so I can do a good job controlling the mite when it comes.This is not a place to put people down but to lift people up and share our knowledge.I'm greatfull to have a way to communicate to other beekeepers all over the world and the wonderful researchers that are trying very hard to help understand the be and its pathogens. I have 31 years in beekeeping and a friend came over yesterday with his Wife to talk about bees and Varroa. They are 83 years old and Ed has had bees for over 50 years and Varroa cleaned him out 2 years ago.He has 20 hives now and wants to know what is new about Varroa and the treatment for it. I was able to show him some of the posts on this list. He thought it was great that we could help each other out and all learn from it.Like Allen said, we can kill an incoming address , but I would hate to do that, we all have knowlege that is positive and should be shared. Lets look at how we can help the bees , thats what this is all about. Thank You Roy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:09:50 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Washington State Beekeepers HI I would like to have a list of Washington State beekeepers on the list. Please , just E-mail me with your address ( E-Mail) . If you could tell me what town it would be helpfull.I have been talking to Jim Bach here lately and I could get some info out to you on what is going on in the state right now.We all did get a news letter and there are new plans for queen breeding in the state. We need people to help evaluate. Thank You Roy Nettlebeck. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 06:46:18 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: NZ policy on importations... I believe BEE-L should strive to encourage the presentation of correct, factual information wherever possible. Some recent statements regarding NZ conditions require correction. Mr. Patton states "New Zealand has their border closed to honey and other bee hive products under the pretense of attempting to eradicate AFB and EFB". New Zealand restricts (but does not prohibit) the import of honey and other bee products from those countries where EFB is endemic. New Zealand is free of EFB and its caustive organism, Melissococcus pluton. Anyone in New Zealand can apply for an import permit for such products. Once an application has been lodged, an analysis is done on the risk that particular product poses to the introduction of EFB. A number of low risk formulations of bee products are routinely allowed entry into New Zealand. As well, honey from some Pacific countries where EFB is known not to be present is allowed entry into New Zealand. The presence of Bacillus larvae, the causative organism of AFB, is not the basis for any such import restriction into New Zealand. Mr. Patton also states that "NZ bee people claim to have a AFB eradication program in place". Currently, the National Beekeepers' Association in New Zealand contracts MAF Quality Management to carry out an AFB control programme in this country. The programme is not an eradication programme, but the reported incidence of AFB in New Zealand has reduced from 1.2% to 0.8% of hives per annum since the programme began in 1991. The NBA is proposing a pest management strategy for AFB under the NZ government's Biosecurity Act. The strategy has as its goal the elimination of clinical infections of AFB in NZ beehives by the year 2006. The strategy is currently being considered by the NZ Minister of Agriculture, but has so far not been put into place. Nick Wallingford President - Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ (\ home nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz (/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:59:06 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: Leaf cutting bees???? At 09:14 AM 4/15/96 -0500, you wrote: > I am looking for some information. One of the old timers at our bee >association was wondering if anyone remembers and can give any information >on a study done on leaf cutting bees in the 1970's. Several trailers were >being special made for transportation of these bees around the US. Any >input would be appreciated. Sorry I don't have any more information on the >study except this beekeeper helped build the trailers and everyone he knew >with the project is dead or unavailable for comment. I think that they are using leaf cutting bees in Nevida to pollinate alfalfa. I have seen trailers along I 80. Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:36:25 PDT Reply-To: m12345@cybernet.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: Re: NZ policy on importations... Comments: cc: Nick Wallingford just to maintain things on a factual rather than emotional basis, i think mr patton will also find that in the uruguay round of gatt negotiations phytosanitary (ie biosecurity) reasons for import control are permissible. all such controls (from every country) were tabled & came under the public scrutiny of ALL interested parties (including the watchful eye of the us dept of ag). nz's controls were found in NO WAY to be a non-tarrif barrier to trade. in fact, in terms of production subsidies, import controls & export subsidies nz was found to have the LOWEST (ALMOST NIL) protections for agriculture of any country in the round. now.... can we please get onto some constructive discussions.... Mark Horsnell, Auckland, New Zealand Tel & Fax: 64-9-846-5644 E-mail: m12345@cybernet.co.nz Eat a live toad the first thing in the morning, and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:18:30 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Apology Hi All, It's amazing, although not surprising how the odd bit of disagreement on the list gets the heckles up. What is more surprising is how many positive comments I have had via direct e-mail to me for my stance. I thought the factual information out weighed the shot at Walter. Anyway to all those who were annoyed by my response and who didn't waste list archive space with a response, I apologies. To those that did respond and waste archive space, you too fell into trap. Cheers All, Robert Rice. Apiculture Service Manager (South Island) Ministry of Agriculture New Zealand. email ricer@lincoln.mqm.govt.nz Note: These opinions are entirely mine and do not reflect those of my Employer. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 19:22:54 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JOHN J MOORE Subject: SUCRIBE BEE-L I would like to subscribe to the BEE-L. I'm not sure if this is the way to do this as this is the first time I sent E-mail. I'm a beekeeper with a new computer. Thank You John Moore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 19:59:17 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: AFB eradication I have sucessfully used fumigated equipment that came from hives with known active AFB, so I submit that equipment can have active AFB spores fumigated. Maryland uses an ethylene dioxide chamber; there are other fumigation methods also (although all of them require special equipment/precautions). As far as getting rid of AFB once and for all, that sounds unlikely. Unlike mites that die when they kill a colony, the AFB spores have effectively an infinite "shelf life". As long as there is an old hollow tree, old hive body in the barn attic, or anything similar, there is a source for AFB. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:50:27 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Rob or open barrel feeding of bees. >Think about this for a minute. Besides the risk of spreading diseases; which >colonies are going to benefit the most from open feeding? If you have a yard >with some hives stronger than others, you ought to be bringing the weaker >ones up to par. In open feeding, the stronger ones, those needing it least, >are going to be the ones to profit the most. >As far as the spread of diseases/pests, I don't know if it's documented, but >common sence indicates that it sure would increase risk. Personally, I'd >advise against it. >Bee well, >Ed Levi I can hardly claim to be very experienced with barrel feeding, having only used it for a couple of seasons, however my experience with it in my area is very different than yours. We have only had one day so far where the temperature has reached 10 degrees C, which is what I like for quick brood inspection. However the bees have flown on several days whenever temps. reached 5 degrees with sun and light to moderate winds. My limited inspections have revealed that the hives which are in danger of starving are the STRONGEST hives, those which started brood rearing earliest and used up their stores. The weak hives generally have lots of honey are in danger of being robbed. This robbing is what I feel is the greatest danger for disease spread, because of the possibility that some of these hives may be weak due to disease. Barrel feeding, in my opinion, is a way of reducing robbing. It's major drawback at this time of year is it's dependence on good flying weather, and for that reason I am also emptying the wood shavings out of the top feeders on the lightest hives and filling their feeders. The other hives have their choice of syrup barrel or boxes of pollen substitute, and the activity around them seems approximately equal. I would also note that one of the purposes of spring feeding (when imminent starvation is not the main motivation!) is to simulate nectar flow and stimulate an increase in brood rearing. It may be that having to fly to the feeder more closely emulates a flow than interior feeding which *might* to the bees be more like rearranging their stores. I do know that bees which have not gathered pollen substitute from outside the hive are likely to reject patties fed inside the hive. Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:03:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Damon Subject: Plastic Bottoms & Tops Being a fairly new hobbiest (3 years), I'am still experimenting with things trying to find what works best for me. So today I took delivery of a few of the plastic tops, inner covers and bottom boards that are sold by the W. T. Kelly Co.. Thinking I would try them out with some packages in a couple of weeks, but now I'am having doubts. After seeing them I began to wonder if they would not provide enough insulation in our S.E. Michigan winters. Which may lead to exessive moisture build-up. Am I being conserned over nothing or is this warrented? Has anyone used or currently using these? With what results? Its entirely possiable that I'am being a bit of a traditionalist and just cant picture my "ladies" walking on anything but "warm" wooden floors. Seen my first dandalions today, can barefoot children be far behind! Tim Damon Ann Arbor, MI, USA timd@arbornet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 23:16:23 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: AFB eradication I have followed with interest the messages discussing AFB eradication. I believe the NZ beekeepers are approaching the whole issue in a scientifically sound and practical manner, and would like to provide our rationale to interested beekeepers. I have exerpted about 10k of text from our Pest Management Strategy, the sections describing the goals, the justifications for the goal and the overall objectives of the Strategy. I will not post it to the list, but have set up my mail programme to post it to anyone who wants to have a copy. Simply send an email message to: nickw@wave.co.nz (Send a "new" message; don't just "reply" to this message, as it will go to all the 600 list members!) In the SUBJECT line of your message, put: SEND AFB INFO Spill it correctly, exactly as the line above and my mail robot will automatically send you a copy! I would be very interested in comments on it after you have read it. Nick Wallingford President - Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ (\ home nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz (/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:34:40 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Pearce Subject: rearranging stores Dear everybody I have recently acquired six hives from someone who has given up due to old age. These hives are strong, but they have come through the winter with 3 full supers of honey each. This has now granulated and is solid in the combs. If I uncap these and put some empty supers of drawn comb under these (with a board between with a hole in it) Will the bees rearrange the honey down into the new empty supers ? Others have suggested putting the stuff out for the bees to rob back into the hives, but having done this once last year, never again, the bees went mad, and once all the honey had gone, they seemed to forget how to forage, and started beating eachother up. The net result was about 2 weeks loss of activity, also it was very nasty going into the apiary while this was going on, (it was like standing in a big food processor full of bees). Any thoughts would be appreciated Steve Pearce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:38:32 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: bee testing Dear U S bee-l readers. My concern with the many posting sharing back yard remedies and different types of formulas approved and unproved and deviation from manufactures application labeling was not a shot at good beekeepers and their struggle to save their bees it was a alarm that conversation on the list at many times sounded like a bunch of good old boys looking for badly needed solutions regardless of what was legal and approved. This got me concerned that the message on a system like this BEE- L should be a forum for the repeated message of the importance of strict compliance with manufactures labels instructions without deviation when administering medications to the bee hive. I do think TM is a drug and regret the wording in my post as my point was that we only have to resort to TM infrequently and always in compliance with the manufactures label instructions. Many Hawaii beekeepers have never used TM in their hives. TM used correctly can be used even in an organic honey certification process according to the organic standards I have read. I do not want to separate Hawaii from mainland U S beekeepers as we all must work together. I certainly don't want to create any alienation by my actions. I really feel that if the Hawaii honeybees test out clean that they should be protected as a national resource. I know lots of good U S beekeepers are trying hard every day to produce the best bee hive products on earth and I respect these people and I feel that continued conversations could only cause others that might read or be asked to read some of the posting about home remedies could only be fuel for concern if put before the public . Please don't be too quick to judge and I will continue to ask questions where I feel that answers are needed. I really come from a good place and I ma be burdened with an issueworthy of investigating. We do not have a advocate for honeybees in the USDA. We need to get organized in demanding some answers and not ever get complacent in or demands for understanding. We are the keepers of the bees and we must develop a unified voice with our needs. Sincerely Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:39:03 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Negative Response Dear Bee -L readers . From the sounds of things a few of you sure can be set off easily. Maybe I did not get a complete set of rules with my Bee-l subscriptions as I do not recall any rules and or regulations about what could and could not be discussed on the Bee-l. and it sounds like some of you feel like my freedom to ask legitimate questions should be denied. Many express concern that I am teasing the KIWI'S and my questions are sincere. I just happen to have a lot of UN answered questions about the New Zealand ( NZ) honeybees not based on any special knowledge of mine but after researching many aspects of this issue and being concerned about RATS in the wood pile. What kind of information highway if one has to tippy toe around when there are pressing issues that should be examined. Many think I am trying to win some bragging rights about whos best and I have no intentions of trying for that as I am and the Hawaii beekeeping is to small to try and compete. I just refuse to accept smoke and mirrors and I have been exposed to lots of slick and smooth sounding answers and I want to get real answers. I also see the possibility that the opinions vary widely between the "RESEARCHERS" from country to country. Maybe Hawaii honeybees are of no importance to the U S beekeepers and if Hawaii can stay mite free and if testing reveals that Hawaii honeybees are not infested with the same viruses that NZ bees have , then Hawaii honeybees could play a role in supplying U S origin mite and viruses free honeybee stocks for the U S beekeepers. It seems a shame that some are even resorting to name calling ( trolls it 's no biggie as I have been called worst) and making references to KILLING mailers with messages that express different ideas or ask questions that some would rather not hear asked. I say to you come up with something more creative then name calling and remember that it takes one to know one and that your post are also on record. I have had some encouraging words and as usual they come directly to me with request to keep on asking my questions and to not use their names. To those responders thank you as it does get troubling with all the aggressive assaults that I get from some. Much more is to be said and not in this posting. A wise man told me one time that "Behind all anger is guilt" it may not be true and it has passed the test several times since I first heard the saying and wonder what all the anger is about. All I care about is the future of the honeybee in the United States of America . I am too small in the big picture to be affected by this issue one way or the other and I refuse to sit back and not seek information. I hope none of you really Kill (filter ) me out and I don't think any of you would really be so closed minded. A fellow beekeeper. Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:39:29 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: N Z reply >Dear N Z BEE-L folks > Boy what a distraction all of your crying caused and all I did was ask questions about the ability to eradicate AFB .Now back to the issues. Nick in your reply April 8th. you >referred that you would be happy to supply some facts. I would like some more details and numbers as you have volunteered. As you stated samples must be significant to be >meaningful. Please provide the numbers of your numerical exercises. > How many test and what types of test were done last year for V & T mites.Please explain percentages to the total number of hives, also explain who gathers these samples and >how they are paid. In 1991 your government stopped the funding for your honeybee disease programme. Please explain hoe you fund your surveillance programs and how is MAF >paid.Also maybe you could share what is required of your shippers to certify against mites for shipments to Canada. > Regarding D Anderson and CSIRO could you please research and advise where CSIRO gets funded and how Anderson is paid. I am not questioning his integrity and just >want to clearly understand who he works for and how he gets paid. > Roger Rice suggested that the bee regulations are mandatory laws. Please confirm if these are laws or if voluntary compliance is sought. Do the requirements apply to anyone >who keeps bees hobbyist and all ? In your1995 industry profile you say your target is 10 % what was the actual percentage of hives tested ? > Under disease surveillance your publication says over 500 apiaries out of 25,124 apiariesare inspected . Please explain the inspection. Are mites tested for ?and then your >publication states that additionally 500 more samples are provided by live bee exporters . Are these samples gathered by the beekeeper or a state employee.And are mites looked >for. > Please provide a complete and comprehensive list of honeybee pests and diseases found on N Z bees. > In your most recent post you said that N Z is free of EFB , please give the details on the testing methodology used to develop this claim. How many test , type of test, recent >and on going test etc. Is it the goal of the N Z pest management strategy to eradicate AFB in N Z bees ? Can you give details as to any honeybee disease or pest ever being >eradicated after being introduced any where on earth. > I feel that your borders are effectively closed to honey imports with the red tape required to bring in a bottle of honey. I really hate to disappoint N Z tourist in Hawaii when I >have to tell them they can not take a one pound jar of Hawaiian honey back home to N Z . Do you feel that N Z bees with the viruses present any danger to the Americas >honeybee with mites ? > Hawaii is in the process of developing a strategy for testing our bees. Could you offer any suggestions as to what type of testing protocol we should follow so that our findings >will have meaning. What test should be done , what percentages of hives should be tested? Who can do what test and what are the cost of testing? > Will you allow Hawaii queen bees into N Z if Hawaii bees test out to be acceptable ? >What would be acceptable ? > I just got your most recent posting . I have a copy of the strategy and my biggest concern is that you are trying to make bee inspectors out of Hobbyist bee keepers and then >expecting them to objectively inspect each other.It is impressive as it will continue to keep N Z beekeepers protected from foreign honey imports. > Well I have to sign off for now 1:30 am Looking forward to your reply > Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:12:18 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: N Z reply I have no objection to answering honestly raised questions, but the barrage of queries from Mr Patton is beyond my interest. The thinly veiled insinuations and barely disguised disbelief really doesn't encourage me to respond to the list of questions Mr Patton raises, though in fact several of them are good questions. If anyone *else* would care to raise them with me, either on the list or perferably one on one, I would be pleased to help you in an understanding of NZ's beekeeping. Say what you want to say about New Zealand, Mr Patton - don't put it in the form of these mostly rhetorical questions. As an example, I would suggest that when our industry had two of your officials and one of your friends over here, we thoroughly discussed statistically significant sampling and survey mechanisms. I don't propose to do that through this list. Please contact me by personal mail if you wish. Nick Wallingford President - Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ (\ home nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz (/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:25:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: On to the lighter side of beekeeping Hello all, Several times the past 2 or 3 weeks I have wondered why the bees in my nuc yard seemed facinated with the liscense plate on the trailer I use to move my hives. My curiosity was solved yesterday when I moved my trailer to my girlfriend's house (where there are no hives) and found when I stopped by there yesterday afternoon a bunch of bees hanging around the liscense plate. I stuck my head under the trailer and lo & behold there was a hive! What is fascinating to me is I have driven hundreds of miles the past few weeks and they still consider it home. Bees sure do keep life interesting! God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:49:38 EET Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dzintars Striks Organization: LATVIA POSTOFFICE Subject: Bee Venom Hi everybody! If there are anybody, who somewhere produce bee venom, please explain me some market questions about this product. Some years ago we had some bee Venom collection explosive of actions (include me), bat now everything it is stopped by losing of contact with these product users. Anyway in Latvia had been accumulate approximately 100 kilograms this product and we have potential for producing such quantity per every year. And now somebody from west Europe tray bay our product for 10$ (USD)/g(gram). Isn't tht price too low and didn't we trouble with such low cost of venom. If somebody has some information about this bee product market in Europe or everywhere else in world, please contacts me through E-mail: DZINTARS@roze.riga.post.lv With best regards Dzintars Striks from Latvia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:09:11 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Lazy bees? In a message dated 96-04-17 14:12:56 EDT, corvi29@SMART.NET (Laura A. Downey) writes: >Subj: Lazy bees? >Date: 96-04-17 14:12:56 EDT > >Last year I restarted with two new colonies. They were given existing comb >in addition to new frames of foundation. For whatever reason, they chose >not to draw comb on some of the new frames. Not having anything else to put >in the hive, I moved the frames around, putting the empty ones to the >outside of the brood chambers, and the full ones to the center. > >Now, after having inspected the hives several times since February, it >appears that they chewed the wax off of some of the frames, and drew some >wax in small scattered areas. There is brood in some of the small areas of >wax, so I cannot remove those frames. > >Were my bees lazy? Why would they choose not to draw comb, but instead chew >the foundation? What is the best way to replace the foundation considering >that there is brood present? When is the latest that I can replace the >foundation so that I do not run into this problem again? > > If there is a flow, they will work. If there is not a flow the only alternative is a "flow by Dixie Crystal" ("southern" for feeding - that's a brand of sugar). We have had the latest spring I can remember here, and a lot of our foundation was ruined, because the anticipated flow did not happen. Finally the bees now have their bellies full, and foundation is coming along. I don't think we have ever had it so close. There has never been less feed on the bees. We had a couple hundred colonies that did not have a single cell of capped honey; they were living day by day, and we were running around with our dwindling reserves of syrup to spot feed. It finally turned around late last week, and good colonies are starting to cap new honey. Each day, I relax a little more. I was really holding my breath, wondering if we could hold on any longer. I had quite a few of my single story hives with an extra deep on them, to try to get more brood. Normally by this point they would be jammed with brood, and a few are. But most of them had only a frame or two, as queens were just starting upstairs. Now most of them are plugged with nectar, and we won't get the brood we anticipated. With less brood to feed, it may increase the honey production. We are watching to see. At the current price of honey, that may not be all bad : Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Cutting swarm cells Many hobby beekeepers spend a lot of spring time going through hives and cutting swarm cells. I think it's an enormous waste. I can't even justify that for one time. If you are requeening, then you'd probably want to cut all the cells out. But they have already decided that they want to make their own, and I believe that cuts the acceptance rates for introduced queens. It's safer to introduce a mated queen into brood from non-swarmy bees. Swarming is the natural means of reproduction. Once the decision has been made, you are fighting nature to cut cells. Why not help nature along, or at least get the bees to think that they have already reproduced. Besides being a real time waster, cutting cells will inevitably lead to one missed cell. And likely it will be a tiny afterthought-type, that makes a small, poor queen. That will be your queen....after your bees go off to the woods. We have to keep in mind that the old queen is shot. When bees build cells, her days are numbered. If they swarm, she will lay only briefly, then will be superceded in the new location. If she can't fly, a virgin will establish the swarm in the new spot. I have seen swarms with a dozen virgins already present, along with the old queen. If you try to keep her going, you may succeed for a while, but the colony will eventually go downhill. Or they may cast a midsummer swarm. Our general practice, when we find swarm cells, is to break up the colony. You can make up two to four nucs with cells in each, and not bother to look for the old queen. Remember, she is a goner, anyway. The bees, now satisied with their reproductive urges, will go on and build into good colonies with young queens. Oops. Time to get off my soapbox and go "deliver" some baby hives, before they "deliver" without a midwife. PS: So NICE to FINALLY see bees with their bellies full! Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:25:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Cutting swarm cells REGARDING RE>Cutting swarm cells Dave Green writes: "Many hobby beekeepers spend a lot of spring time going through hives and cutting swarm cells. I think it's an enormous waste.........Our general practice, when we find swarm cells, is to break up the colony. You can make up two to four nucs with cells in each, and not bother to look for the old queen. Remember, she is a goner, anyway. The bees, now satisied with their reproductive urges, will go on and build into good colonies with young queens." This is good advice. In past years I have spent much time trying to cut out swarm cells, only to have the hive swarm eventually anyway. Because the hives in preparation for swarming are usually good strong ones, these would be the best to choose for splits anyway. I'm giving this practice a try this year. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:36:25 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: SPAM (Rant begins here...) Comments: cc: allend@internode.net >Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:07:40 -0600 Allen Dick >The price? Well I can tell you where to buy pads for application in >effective, approved methods that are recommended by well known and >respected Canadian researchers for about $0.03 each. > >Frankly, if I see another SPAM here about that thing, I'm going to >forward it directly to Consumer & Corporate Affairs, the department >that deals with such. > O.K, So I put myself in the line of fire yet again, but IMHO this goes far too far. While I cannot condone the methods that Mr. Podpodi employed to inform the list of his product, to condemn it out of hand without examination, and to threaten prosecution is disgraceful. As I post this, I have a VTD on my desk. Having examined it, and thought about it carefully, it definitely has promise. Unlike the current methods of delivery, the bees cannot walk in the Formic acid (burnt feet) and the evaporation can be controlled. If and when I get mites, and provided Mr. Podpodi is not intimidated enough to quit, then I for one, will certainly both use it and recommend it. I must agree, 85% Formic Acid has proven to be too strong, but only with the old method of delivery. Perhaps it is time for one of the academic crowd to become involved and evaluate this item! Finally to Mr. Podpodi, don't be put off by the blinkered view of some of our fraternity, you have a good product, be persistant, but as a newbie tread carefully around the 'Net Gods' and find a different method of delivering your message. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:47:44 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Plastic Bottoms & Tops In-Reply-To: Hi Tim I have a few of the plastic tops that came with some hives I bought from Kelley and I have had a problem with condensation. My solution was to prop the top up a little with an old queen cage. This provided adequate ventilation and solved the problem Frank ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:23:06 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: N Z Nick's refusal/retreat Well Nick I'Ll have to be careful and assume that you report what was told to you and not what you know for facts because you do not represent the facts. When Don Tinker went to N Z with the Hawaii DEpt of Ag people there was in fact an absense of statistical information shared and Mr. Tinker repeatedaly asked for statistical information. It is quite a departure from your earlier statements where you volunteered to be forth right with information. You now seem to have a change of heart. It will not serve you very well to retreat on you word . A man's word is what he has to be judged by and you offered information, I responded with specific questions and now you slickly try to dodge the issue. I am asking real genuine questions that I have tried to gain understanding. You have your very slick 1995 industry profile and your very slick PMS brochure and both publications are written with vague generalizations without statistical information which you volentered to share. Come on you must not intended to welch out on your commitment. Hoping you change your mind and come forward with the data on this information highway. Are we sharing information or are you trying to hide information. You have been so insistent that Hawaii test honeybees and now you refuse to participate in developing the protocal . I'm sure you have volumns of helpful information that you could share if you really wanted to clear the air with cooperation and truth. Hoping you just made a mistake in your last post and that you will do as you said you would and not run from sincere questions.There no place to hide . Wal ter Patton. Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 13:35:14 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: Ventilation Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu This topic has been brought up several times since I joined the list last year, but I thought that I would throw out an approach that I tried this winter with excellent results. First, placement. I am in Dayton, Ohio USA at approx 39.9N. Problem: I was looking for a way to prevent the moisture that built up in my hives in winter of '94 so I did the following: Solution: Took a wooden inner cover with the open hole and drilled, using my 2.5 inch door knob drill bit, four additional holes. These were covered with 8 to the inch screen (hardware cloth, for those in the US). _______________ | _ _ | | / \ / \ | | \_/ \_/ | | | | | | | | _ _ | | / \ / \ | | \_/ \_/ | |______________| This allowed the moisture buildup inside the hive to pass on through the innercover up into the empty deep hive body that surrounded the syrup I fed to the bees. The telescoping cover on top of that body I modified by adding 1/4 inch shim at each corner, thereby lifting that cover by that much all around the cover. This allowed the moist air carried from the inside, through the modified inner cover to be vented out from under the lid. The result: the inside of the hive had no moisture all winter (a long and hard one with a lot of moisture and cold days). The telescoping cover had some small amount of mildew built up over the season but no dripping water. I am leaving this modified inner cover and telescoping cover on all this coming summer to see if it aids the evaporation of water out of the nectar. It didn't take long at all to make the modifications, say 5 minutes per cover and they are permanently a part of the hive now. They provide the ventilation required without any additional boxes or other equipment necessary. My only concern is whether the bees will propolize the screens shut or if they will leave them open. I hope this moves me from the "lurker" category and that someone may find this approach useful. If I have done something stupid that you who are more experienced may see please tell me by the List so that other "lurkers" will know of my mistake as well and avoid it. Thanks Cheers Mark Egloff PS: Spring seems to finally be coming to the Ohio River Valley. Magnolia trees are blooming, forsythia are bright yellow balls of flowers, the first dandelions are beginning to really show in numbers, and there was new nectar in the supers when I looked in on the hives last weekend. Dare I hope that we made it? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 13:39:32 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Philippe Audibert Subject: RAPE SEED HONEY I am looking for my friend from Canada who is doing some rape seed honey. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:12:58 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US Subject: Cutting Swarm Cells With our short cool climate, and meaningful overwintering still a dream (in spite of some minor successes), I find breaking up a hive to be impractical. When I spot queen cells, almost exclusively in first year queens-since that is what we have, I simply take the queen and a couple frames of brood to make a nuc. I save one or two of the best looking cells and cut all the rest I can find. This gives me a sound new queen and a nuc for what ever need I may find, and it eliminates the urge to swarm (at least it has for the last 13 or 14 years). Your question brings one to my mind. Each summer many of our new package colonies swarm about the first of July (unless appropriate measures taken). I have never kept bees anywhere but Alaska (Anchorage area), but my reading says these new colonies should seldom swarm. We do have a short season, and perhaps environmental factors involved in swarming, especially the extremes of the sun light duration, may influence things. Anyone else out there have such frequent swarming from new queens? We do get pretty good build up by mid june (nectar flow runs about from first week in june until the end of july), but temperatures never get extreme (70s F. are the max). Any thoughts or experiences? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:32:14 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: NZ info I am reluctant to undertake answering the questions put by Mr Patton because (1) there are so many of them (2) I do not feel like acting as Mr Patton's research tool when everything he asks is available from one source or another (3) I do not feel there is genuine interest in the answers by Mr Patton (4) I'm pretty sure there is not interest by this list I repeat that if anyone *is* interested, and is not just trying to put me to a lot of work, I will be happy to correspond by email. I'll just get you started on your problem re: a statistical survey. You would need to know the number of hives, make assumptions re: infectability of the disease, the likelihood of importation, the weighting of the various vectors of introduction. Then it really becomes almost a straight mathematical exercise. Again, I apologise to the list for the intemperate thread that this has degenerated into. On the other hand, I don't want Mr Patton's writing to leave anyone thinking NZ is trying to hide anything it our attempts to achieve fair market access. Nick Wallingford President - Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ (\ home nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz (/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:31:39 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: New package swarming >Each summer many of our new package colonies swarm about the >first of July (unless appropriate measures taken). I have a question. Do you use deeps or mediums supers as brood chamber? I read in the "Art of Beekeeping" that the practice of double deep can cause crowding as the upper deep gets honey bound, creating a swarmy environment. The idea is to us a single deep with mediums above and add the medium above the deep. This strategy was I think west coast area where the weathet may be different. I'm a beginner and can not speak from experience. Maybe some out there can. ______ _______ | | | | | | |_______|/______ excluder here or | | | |\ down one? |______| |_______| | | vs | | | | | | | | | | |______| |_______| I'm not sure if using this approach one places the queen excluder above the first medium or second. I assume the first medium and new supper are added above the excluder. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:15:56 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Ventilation In-Reply-To: <9603188298.AA829860272@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> Hi Mark I think you are on the right track however I think the extra holes in the inner cover may be a bit much. The bees may try to propolize the holes to cut sown on the light. If they don't, then you are probably ahead of the game because proper ventilation is crucial both in winter and when the bees are ripening honey. I use a method recommended by Dr. Deleplane. I tilt the hive forward in winter and prop the back side of the telescoping cover open with an old queen cage laying flat. This allows warm moist air to vent out the back side and condensate runs down the cover and down the front of the hive and out. In summer I level the hives and turn the queen cage up on the side. I suppose it does not matter which method is used as long as good ventilation is accomplished. Frank Hunmphrey/Chattaanooga,Tn. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:45:07 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@JHQNOV.DOT.STATE.AK.US Subject: New package swarms Before I answer your question I should explain that I am refering to an area wide condition, not just mine. And I should add that I am a hobbiest keeping usually four hives each year. I use all deep supers, and no excluders (except for specific purposes). The queen has unlimited laying room. I do not think swarming is a problem. I have never lost a swarm and don't think a hobbiest should often (if ever) lose one. If you are on top of things your queen will not get away. My nuc method of control has saved me every time. I have not had the situation arise often, but we seem to have lots of swarms up here. Many may come from single brood nest situations. I know that in the Anchorage area a single brood nest is a swarm generator. A single brood box will swarm every time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:32:51 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: New Zealand Honey Bee Disease Programmes Since New Zealand's programmes relating to American foulbrood disease control, exotic bee disease surveillance and exotic disease and pest response preparedness have been mentioned recently on BEE-L, I thought I'd take this opportunity to explain the programmes to readers: 1) Honey bee health status - Honey bee diseases present in New Zealand (NZ) producing identifiable symptoms are AFB, nosema, chalkbrood, sacbrood, chronic bee paralysis, and black queen cell. Most of the other known bee viruses have been found in NZ, including acute bee paralysis virus, cloudy wing virus, bee virus X, bee virus Y, filamentous virus and Kashmir bee virus. These viruses have only been detected by injecting dead bee extracts into healthy pupae, and exist in honey bees in NZ as inapparent infections. Amoeba disease is present in NZ, although serious effects of amoeba infestation are not known. Several species of harmless external mites have been found. These are Melittiphis alvearius, Acarapis externus, A. dorsalis and Neocypholaelaps zealandicus. 2) American foulbrood control programme - Regulations regarding AFB control have been in place in NZ since the enactment of the first of a series of Apiaries Acts in 1905. As in many other western beekeeping countries, AFB inspection and education programmes were for many years funded by central government. In 1991, however, the extensive government fiscal reforms transforming New Zealand society were also applied to beekeeping services. Because AFB was an endemic disease, central government identified beekeepers as the principal beneficiaries of AFB control programmes. They were therefore asked to pay directly for these programmes. The National Beekeepers' Association (NBA) decided that a continuing AFB control programme was important, and entered into the first of a continuing series of annual contracts with the Ministry of Agriculture to provide AFB control services. Funding for the contract comes from a NBA levy on beehive holdings. The contract includes the inspection of 3.9% of NZ apiaries (on a targeted basis) by government inspectors. The Ministry of Agriculture also organises a further random surveillance inspection programme which is carried out by volunteer inspectors. These volunteer inspectors are trained beekeepers belonging to the National Beekeepers' Association. The NBA inspections are known throughout NZ as "diseaseathons". In the 1994-5 production year, government personnel inspected 4% of NZ apiaries, with NBA volunteers inspecting a further 3.5%. As well, all beekeepers in NZ are required by law to inspect all of their beehives for AFB at least once during the spring period each year, and to report the findings of those inspections (and any changes to apiary and hive holdings) to the Ministry of Agriculture. Beekeepers must also report the presence of AFB whenever it is found. NZ therefore has a highly accurate record of both apiary locations and AFB occurrence. In the 1994-95 production year, the reported incidence of AFB (from all sources, including the AFB control programme) was 0.8% of hives and 4.2% of apiaries. The NZ Apiaries Act forbids the feeding of drugs to beehives for the control of AFB. All beehives found to be infected with the disease are destroyed by burning, with woodenware sterilised by treatment with hot paraffin (160oC for 10-15 minutes). 3) Exotic bee disease surveillance -NZ is fortunate to be free of a number of economically significant honey bee diseases found elsewhere in the world. The NZ government believes maintenance of such a disease status is important, and therefore funds an exotic bee disease surveillance programme. Government personnel inspect 500 apiaries throughout the country each year as part of this programme. The apiaries are chosen for their proximity to risk areas, including ports, rubbish dumps, and tourist areas. All hives in each apiary are inspected for visual symptoms of European foulbrood, with any suspect larvae analyzed (anaerobic culture) at a government bee disease diagnostic laboratory. At least 100 drone pupae in each hive are also visually inspected for the presence of Varroa and Tropilaelaps mites. A sample of at least 400 adult bees is then taken from each hive and analyzed at the government lab for the presence of Varroa mite and Tropilaelaps mite (alcohol wash), and Acarine mite (dissection). In addition to these targeted surveillance inspections, every apiary in NZ which supplies either queen bees or package bees is also sampled for exotic bee diseases. The samples (400+ bees) are processed by the government bee disease diagnostic lab. In the 1994-95 production year, a total of 542 production apiaries were sampled for exotic bee diseases. All suspicious bee disease symptoms reported by beekeepers are also investigated by government apiculture personnel, with samples analyzed by the bee disease diagnostic lab. In the 1994-95 production year, 77 such samples were analyzed, all but one for European foulbrood. All results were negative. An on-going education programme is carried out with beekeepers to explain the threats to the NZ beekeeping industry posed by exotic bee diseases. In 1995, a four page colour pamphlet identifying exotic diseases was sent to every registered beekeeper in NZ. 4) Border protection - Because New Zealand is an island country, border protection is an extremely important first line of defence against the introduction of exotic diseases and pests. Agricultural Quarantine officers are therefore specifically trained to have an awareness of the NZ beekeeping industry and the likely means of introduction of exotic bee diseases. Agricultural Quarantine officers are stationed at all New Zealand ports and airports, and also carry out surveillance of all incoming goods, including commercial consignments and mail. 5) Honey Bee Exotic Disease and Pest Response (EDPR) preparedness - In the event that a honey bee exotic disease or pest is found in NZ, a response system is in place which will identify the extent of the disease or pest and provide factual information necessary to undertake control or eradication measures. The system is based on similar EDPR programmes in place in NZ for such diseases as fruit fly and foot and mouth. A unique feature of the system is that it uses both trained government personnel and beekeeper volunteer inspectors. The system is maintained by yearly EDPR exercises in various parts of NZ where AFB is substituted for the exotic bee disease. The exercises help maintain both emergency headquarters and field team capabilities. In the 1995-96 production year, EDPR exercises were carried out in three areas of NZ, involving 90 government personnel and 110 beekeepers. 6) Improved diagnostic capability - As part of its commitment to exotic bee disease surveillance and EDPR, the NZ government has over the years continued to improve its honey bee disease and pest diagnostic methods. This commitment began with the funding of consultancy visits in the early 1980's by Dr. Hachiro Shimanuki from the USDA, a recognised world expert in honey bee diseases. Dr. Shimanuki deserves much of the credit for initiating the development of NZ's current exotic bee disease surveillance and EDPR programmes. One of Dr. Shimanuki's recommendations was that a full bee disease survey be conducted in NZ (even though a variety of surveys for individual diseases had been carried out in the past). Acting on this recommendation, the NZ government contracted Dr. Denis Anderson, a honey bee pathologist from Australia, to perform this survey, and also to develop a honey bee diagnostic laboratory. More recent projects include adoption of FABIS technology for Africanised honey bee genotype diagnosis (in conjunction with the USDA), testing of enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) for tracheal mites (in conjunction with Agriculture Canada), and testing/adoption of polymerase chain reaction (PCR) technology for EFB diagnosis (in conjunction with the University of Wales). 7) Reporting and further information - The NZ Ministry of Agriculture makes quarterly reports on the occurrence of honey bee diseases to the Office International Des Epizooties (OIE), the recognised world body for animal disease reporting and control. The Ministry of Agriculture also makes government-to-government reports on honey bee diseases upon request. MAF Quality Management maintains integrity in all of its programmes relating to honey bee diseases through the use of quality systems. The quality systems, and the programmes themselves, are subject to independent audit by the government's Regulatory Authority. Annual reports on the AFB control contract, and the exotic bee disease surveillance and EDPR programmes, are included in the August edition of the New Zealand Beekeeper. Articles in overseas journals explaining these programmes include Van Eaton, C. (1992) Recent developments in the control of honey bee diseases in New Zealand. Canadian Beekeeping 16(9): 196-198; and Matheson, A. (1991) Beekeeping: leading agricultural change in New Zealand. BeeWorld 72(2): 60-73; (3): 117-130. Cliff Van Eaton Apicultural Advisory Officer MAF Quality Management Tauranga, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 22:34:12 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: AFB eradication In a message dated 96-04-18 01:50:33 EDT, you write: >Subj: Re: AFB eradication >Date: 96-04-18 01:50:33 EDT >From: WGMiller@AOL.COM (Bill Miller) >I have sucessfully used fumigated equipment that came from hives with known >active AFB, so I submit that equipment can have active AFB spores fumigated. > Maryland uses an ethylene dioxide chamber; there are other fumigation >methods also (although all of them require special equipment/precautions). > > Does anyone know of a fumigation chamber or radiation chamber available in, or near South Carolina? I have "inherited" a lot of frames of AFB comb from several beekeepers, who put it in one corner of my warehouse. I was planning to have a wax melting session, but some of the comb looks very good, except for the AFB, and I've been thinking...... Oh yeah, I've already considered the nuclear waste dump at the Savannah River Plant. Some of my bees are near there, and they can work nights, because they have their own neon light..... ;<) Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:35:03 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Bee-L Censorship (was "Re: bee testing") >SNIP< >... the message on a system like this BEE- L should be a forum for the >repeated message of the importance of strict compliance with manufactures >labels instructions without deviation when administering medications to the >bee hive. >SNIP< Let's keep discussion uninhibited on unapproved mite treatments. Many discoveries are made by novices and by accident, so let's continue to learn about things like grease patties on tracheal mites and plant extracts for varroa, even if they don't have a bureaucratic stamp of approval. This is especially important since so much of this needs further study. There is some mis-information and lack of facts on this subject. For instance: 1. RE-USE OF APISTAN DOESN'T WORK. The Apistan reuse issue appears to quite unclear. The unreplicated study that showed rapid reductions in the effectiveness of Apistan has some contradicting evidence. Dr. Frank Eischen of the Texas Agricultural Experiment Station at Weslaco, Texas writes (American Bee Journal, December 1995): "There are published reports from Europe showing 99% effectiveness of Apistan strips used five times over a period of five years (Pechhacker, 1993). I have also received personal communication from knowledgeable folks outside the U.S. attesting to good efficacy with multiple use. This issue needs to be resolved as soon as possible." The study he cites is Pechhacker, H. 1993. A successful strategy for Varroa control. In: pp. 551-555. Asian Apiculture. L. Conner et al. eds. Wicwas Press. 2. LEAVING APISTAN IN HIVES LONGER THAN 8 WEEKS WILL ACCELERATE MITE RESISTANCE TO FLUVALINATE. Also unclear. David M. Noetzel, Extension Entomologist Emeritus from University of Minnesota, suggests almost the opposite. Responding to the earlier article from James Bach, he writes (American Bee Journal, December 1995, page 791): "...you cannot have miticide resistance without intense (i.e. high kill) selection. Unless Mr. Bach has objective evidence that mite resistance to fluvalinate (Mavrik) is a multiple gene resistance, he has no basis upon which to suggest that a low dosage of fluvalinate speeds the development of resistance. ... To date where resistance has been traced to the gene level, it has been determined a single gene confers resistance. Hence high dosages always speeds resistance development." In essence, Mr. Noetzel appears to be saying that the high (98% according to Zoecon as reported by James Bach) kill rate of Apistan during the first 45 days does MORE to speed the development of resistance than a lower kill rate that might occur with weaker fluvalinate treatments. 3. IT WILL GET IN YOUR HONEY IF YOU LEAVE AN APISTAN STRIP IN YOUR HIVE OVER THE WINTER. Really? Is there even a single fact to support this? It is my understanding that bees move honey around, and that even following label directions, honey that was in a brood nest during treatment may very well find itself in marketable honey supers later. Has there been even ONE substantiated case of fluvalinate from Apistan in honey? I'm not a professional scientist, and won't support any position without facts, but think we need to keep open discussion to learn the facts. And if someone comes forward to tell us that the same moth crystals or menthol is available at Walmart at a fraction of the price that Mann Lake is asking, that's nice to know too. No one here is fit to be a censor. Regards, John in Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 23:11:46 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Package Bees - warning Well, I have to eat some words here... I just installed 800+ packages and have to eat crow about releasing the queen at the time of dumping the bees in. We've done that without any problem many times in the past, but there is always something new... We got our packages Sunday night and were eager to install Monday. The forecast was for 16 degrees C -- maximum -- with clouds and rain in the afternoon, which is about ideal for installing and so we started in the morning to put some in. We had 300 or so in by lunch, and released the queens as we went along adding the bees to the BCs. We syrupped the Q's to prevent flying as we worked. The bees were pretty cool and not runny. Well by about 1 PM the temperature was up to 24 degrees C and after lunch, I went outside to find a 20 lb swarm bending one of my favourite trees. Over the afternoon, we had several more, but managed to catch them all and box them. After checking, we found that we had lost relatively few queens, but some of the hives had lost quite few bees and we have our work cut out equalising later. Anyhow, I guess I should never have believed a weather forecast, but I did and it cost me a few $$ and a lot of extra work. As for the rest of the packages, we waited until dusk, and left the queen in her box on top of the frames (under a sack) for a day, then direct released them -- it takes only 15 seconds per hive. Still it is a a lot of extra work, and the queens get a slower start, BUT we do know where they are living this way. I've not seen this before -- package queens up and *swarming* out of a new home, but then we have almost always waited until dusk. I've seen the bees drift badly when installed on or before a hot day, but not anything like this. These bees had flown in from NZ, and were packed with CO2, and I wonder if they were affected by that. They looked a bit draggy, and that is one reason we rushed to install them. We were worried that they might not keep in packages for long. In fact, the last ones put in (Tuesday night) were starting to die off a bit, so I guess we were justified in our hurry. The irony is that this was the only decently warm day we've had all spring! And our packages had to come right then. So, take my previous advice about direct release with a grain of salt, and use your judgement. If in doubt, release later. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 23:11:46 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Flooded Bees This hasn't been a great winter for bringing bees thru here in Alberta. Losses of 50% in some yards is not uncommon, so when I got a call from a landowner saying my hives were half under water because of an ice jam in the creek, I thought, "Oh well". I figured there was no rush to get there, because I would have to walk in due to the mud and couldn't bring anything out, and besides it was probably -- from the description -- a total loss. Well, today I got the packages squared away -- having released the queens -- and thought I'd like a drive in the country. We got there alright, but had to go around -- the water was too high on the ford, and we couldn't make it across the creek, so we had to go back around, pulling a neighbour out of the mud on the way, and finally got to the yard. What a sight! The four packs -- still wrapped in Kodel-- had remained on their pallets, but they had obviously had water up halfway their sides, and they were scattered around the area, still upright, AND there were bees were flying from them *all*. We opened and fed the yard -- 30 hives in total, and guess what: We had only four dead. Moreover, the survivers almost all looked better than the 2 pound packages I spent my week on. As Winnie-the-Pooh says, "You just never can tell about bees". . Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 01:45:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Ventilation At 01:35 4/18/96 EST, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: "Mark D. Egloff" >Subject: Ventilation >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > My only concern is whether the bees will > propolize the screens shut or if they will leave them open. > > > > Thanks > Cheers > Mark Egloff > > I think that your idea is a great one, but I'm not an expert on the subject. However, I do know about the propolization issue. They will fill it up and so it will be necessary to watch it and clean it out, when it gets clogged. This could become a nuisance, over time, but otherwise, it sounds good. Way to go! Regards, Mike Wallace Bkeeper1@why.net McKinney, Texas USA Don't cuss! Call Gus. He'll cuss for both of us. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:11:33 +-200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frantisek Sevcik Subject: ok 2c2f14 ok 2c2f14 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:25:45 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: ok 2c2f14 On Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:11:33 +-200, Frantisek Sevcik wrote: >ok 2c2f14 Pane kolego, nespletl jste si adresu? Tusim, ze zde je jeste jeden Ptacek v mistni siti. S pozdravem, Vladimir Ptacek ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:47:45 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: ok 2c2f14 Sorry to fill your e.mail boxes with my incident messages. Vladimir Ptacek ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:31:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garrett Dodds Subject: eye color mutations Dose any one have any detailed information on eye color mutations or know of a good source for the information. Garrett Dodds 29480 January Road West Mansfield, OH 43358-9603 (513) 355-0290 dodds.12@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:36:17 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Philippe Audibert Subject: -No Subject- I would like to know if Mr Aebell is still a part of this mailing list Thanks. Philippe PS: Mr Aebell is doing some Rape seed honey. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:26:33 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: RE-SPAM (Isn't Condemn...) David Eyer wrote: 1. O.K, So I put myself in the line of fire yet again, but IMHO this goes far > too far. > While I cannot condone the methods that Mr. Podpodi employed to inform the > list of his product, to condemn it out of hand without examination. 2. As I post this, I have a VTD on my desk. Having examined it, and > thought about it carefully, it definitely has promise. Unlike the current > methods of delivery, the bees cannot walk in the Formic acid (burnt feet) > and the evaporation can be controlled. If and when I get mites, and provided > Mr. Podpodi is not intimidated enough to quit, then I for one, will > certainly both use it and recommend it. 3. I must agree, 85% Formic Acid has proven to be too strong, but only with the old method of delivery. Perhaps it is time for one of the academic crowd to become involved and evaluate this item! Dear David and b-liners: I will answer your mail in a systematic way to explain our views: 1. When we wrote our openion as researchers and regulatories we did not mean to condemn the VTD. Our questions were about data to support the claims and where this VTD was tested. We are not aware of any place in Canada where formic acid is used tested that VTD. 2. Having the VTD on your desk and examining it, does it mean 'you tested it! Are you satisfied with the results ? Do you take the responsibilty of having this product in the market? 3. Use of 85% formic acid is not legal in Canada. When formic acid was proved for use in bee colonies the permit was only for 65% formic acid. This action was for a good reason that is to reduce the negative effects of formic acid on treated colonies (e.g. queen losses, newly emerged bees and eggs kill). I like your statment and I take it as an advice " Until such time when one or more of the academic crowd get involved and evaluate the VTD, --> we should wait for the outcome of the results". Regards, Medhat Nasr, Ph.D. Ontario Beekeepers' Association c/o Dept. Environmental Biology Unversity of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: Re: eye color mutations Garrett, There is a woman by the name of Susan Cobey who works at the Ohio State University. She has a fairly good knowledge of the mutations you are looking for. She may even have some suggestions on who to speak with about locating some information about eye color mutations. I do know that most of the mutations are recessive and must be maintained through instrumental insemination. Good luck with your search! Joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:20:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Spring bee scarcity REGARDING Spring bee scarcity I hope that this post is not too redundant, but I thought I'd comment on some observations here in southeastern Michigan. Yesterday was one of the first real warm spring days we've had (77F). I spent the whole afternoon cleaning out numerous dead hive bodies and resetting them up for new packages. Lots of honey in frames was spread out all around me for the entire warm, sunny afternoon. Only one single scout bee approached my work area the whole time, and I never did see any of her hivemates! Amazing, since there is (or was) another beekeeper's pretty large apiary about a half mile away. In our flower garden, the crocusses are at their showiest, and in years past each one has had two or three bees in it at a time. Not a single honey bee was to be seen in the garden, although the wild bee species were voraciously collecting the abundant pollen. These are indeed strange times. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:28:38 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "J. David Riddle" Subject: Feeding a new package I read a post the other day about top feeding with gallon size plastic zip-lock bags instead of gallon jars which I have used in the past. In the past I put the gallon jar on a 1/4" shim on top of the slot in the inner cover, then put an empty deep super over the whole thing. When using the plastic bags I read that you should use 2 - 2" slits in the bag, but do you put the bag directly on top of the frames, then add a shallow super with the inner cover on top or the other way around with the bag on top of the inner cover and no extra super. Also, do the bees go into the bag to get the last parts of the syrup? Thanks in advance, J. David Riddle Newburyport, MA dmaster@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:36:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jim G. Shoemaker" Subject: Friend Needs Honey A non-internet beekeeper friend needs 2 or 3 barrels of med-amber or lighter honey. It needs to be within 3 or 4 hundred miles or Springfield, MO USA. With the short available supply of honey I know this is a long shot but thought I would try it for him. If anyone is interested contact him (Charley Wills) at (417) 753 2390 or e-mail me directly (not to the list) please. Very dry in our area of the world and this is supposed to be our wet season. Thanks, Jim Shoemaker 5160 S. Western Brookline, MO (near Springfield and Bass Pro Shop) jshoemak@mail.orion.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:50:01 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Thanks for agreeing with me >The price? Well I can tell you where to buy pads for application in >effective, approved methods that are recommended by well known and >respected Canadian researchers for about $0.03 each. > >Frankly, if I see another SPAM here about that thing, I'm going to >forward it directly to Consumer & Corporate Affairs, the department >that deals with such. > While I cannot condone the methods This is the topic and the content of the post you responded to. Specifically the obviously false and exaggerated claims made, and the replying to posts that were only vaguely related *with a canned message* were discussed. > that Mr. Podpodi I believe the post came from a Mr. Phillips, not the above mentioned. I don't know if Mr. Popodi has *anything* to do with the abuse of our group. > employed to inform the list of his product > to condemn it out of hand without examination, and to threaten > prosecution is disgraceful. No one condemned the product, and no one threatened to press prosecution. BUT doubts were cast on its ability to fulfill claims of safety and 'beneficial' nature of concentrated formic acid, 100% control of mites, it's price compared to alternatives, and whether it had been able to attract -- and pass -- independant tests, etc. *And* it was suggested that the government body that is maintained to protect the public from unscrupulous or uncritical claims by advertisers should have an opportunity to scrutinise the material posted and form their own conclusion. > As I post this, I have a VTD on my desk. Having examined it, and > thought about it carefully, it definitely has promise. Unlike the > current methods of delivery, the bees cannot walk in the Formic acid > (burnt feet) and the evaporation can be controlled. No one disputes this, and personally I am certain that it has some good features -- and possibly some usefulness -- However some of the the claims are specifically untrue. That is the issue. I am not sure that there is much danger of bees walking on formic with the 'mite wipes' type pads, but I think this is something to consider. These pads have a perforated plastic cover that should contain the acid, but I do wonder about this aspect. Pehaps one of the researchers involved could comment. Real or potential amage to the bees is one aspect of formic that we must always consider. > If and when I get mites, and provided Mr. Podpodi is not > intimidated enough to quit, then I for one, will certainly both use > it and recommend it. We'll see. > I must agree, 85% Formic Acid has proven to be too strong, but > only with the old method of delivery. Perhaps it is time for one > of the academic crowd to become involved and evaluate this item! Right. However academics are strongly allergic to been seen anywhere near anything -- or anyone -- who appears likely to make unsubstantiated and dubious claims in the same sentence (paragraph, article?) with their names. Good jobs are hard to find. Moreover, due to the fact that this product appears to offer little that cheaper and non-proprietary systems do not, there will likely be somewhat restrained interest. Personal human safety is one of the factors that mandates the use of more dilute formic. The vapor concentration is less in the weaker solutions. Those who have Workman's Compensation for their people will be wise to stick with approved practices. Those who don't should consider that such safety rules are usually well designed. > Finally to Mr. Podpodi, you have a good product This has yet to be proven independently. The burden of proof is on the advertiser, not the buyer. > don't be put off by the blinkered view of some of our fraternity. This community is pretty open minded, but not easily fooled. We require more than advertising. > but as a newbie tread carefully around the 'Net Gods' and > find a different method of delivering your message. Well, I don't know about 'Net Gods', but speaking of such, David, I notice you've been pretty circumspect in promoting your proprietary hive. You don't go spamming the group repeatedly, and have heard no complaints or threats of prosecution (as far as I know) for the claims you make about a box that is very probably no better than the hundreds (thousands) of other designs that have been dreamed up and promoted over the years. It appears that you and I have very little real difference of opinion on this matter, seeing as you explicitly agreed with all the major points in my pos -- except you showed little confidence that the advertising for the device would stand regulatory scrutiny, and you feel -- without testing it -- that it is likely worth $4+ dollars per hive (assuming one per hive will do the trick) more than the approved and proven methods. Oh, well. Say, how about sending me some literature on the DE hive? ;-) Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 04:46:45 PDT Reply-To: m12345@cybernet.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: colour recognition does anyone know the list of colours a bee can recognise? thanx in advance, mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:04:17 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Bee-L Censorship (was "Re: bee testing") In-Reply-To: <199604190235.TAA02820@iceland.it.earthlink.net> Hi John Remember when you were in grade school and they gave you shots to make you immune to various deseased. Those shots were actually the virus itself in a weakende state so that your body could develope a resistence to the desease. Understanding that this works in humans, don't you think that it would also work on bugs? Most agree that Apistan starts to deteriorate from day one and after approximately 45 days, it is starting to get weak enough to allow the mites to develop resistance to it. I have been using Apistan according to directions for quite sometime and to my knowlege I have not lost any bees to voroa mites. I have however lost some to treachea mites. I test reguraly during the honey flow and have on occasion removed a colony from production to treat them. This has worked well for me in the past and I expect it will do so for some time to come. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:28:32 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Feeding a new package In-Reply-To: <199604191428.KAA29104@mailserver2.tiac.net> If you are feeding a new package, put a queen excluder on top of the hive and put the bags on the excluder. That way you can lift the excluder to move the bags without spillage. Next put on the small super and then the inner cover. You probably also read that the system takes a bit of getting used to to keep from making a mess. Once I got it down pat, I've not had any more problems. Just don't overfill the bags and make sure you get the zip-lock closed good. Also you might want to start off with quart bags with new packages and nucs. Yes they will go into the bag to get the last remaining syrup if the bags wrinkles as they take it. I have opened several hives and found the larger colonies licking a dry bag form the inside. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:46:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: rearranging stores In-Reply-To: Hi Steve I have put old supers and sticky supers above the innercover for the bees to clean up. They will eventually clean them if they can. Some crystallized honey gets so hard that they just don't want to clean them. I read somewhere(maybe this list) that if you place the supers under the brood chamber, it will get cleaned much faster although the combs will get travel stained. Another thought would be to put the supers directly above the brood nest and allow the bees to expand the brood nest into them. The bees would clean the supers in order to make room for brood. Once the old honey is removed, put a queen excluder below them and the bees should fill them with new honey as the brood hatches. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:49:54 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Re: Bee-L Censorship (was "Re: bee testing") In-Reply-To: Frank Humphrey "Re: Bee-L Censorship (was "Re: bee testing")" (Apr 19, 10:04am) On Apr 19, 10:04am, Frank Humphrey wrote: > > I test reguraly during the honey flow and have on occasion removed a colony from > production to treat them. This has worked well for me in the past and I expect > it will do so for some time to come. > > Frank Humphrey >-- End of excerpt from Frank Humphrey Hi Frank, How exactly do you test for varroa? Do you use the ether method, sticky paper, etc? Thanks, Kris Bruland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:34:49 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Alexander Subject: Re: AFB eradication In-Reply-To: <960418223412_378247865@emout09.mail.aol.com> in reference to fumigation of hives, i have a fumigator and live in the western washington area. let me know your needs. dave alexander ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:33:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: eye color mutations In a message dated 96-04-19 07:29:46 EDT, you write: > >Dose any one have any detailed information on eye color mutations or know >of a good source for the information. > >Garrett Dodds Garret One good source is Bee Genetics and Breeding edited by Thomas E. Rindere Chapter #3 in his book deals with Visible Mutants the chapter was written by Kenneth W. Tucker. Tucker writes on mode of inheritance, Dominance or recessiveness, allelism, and in general about genic interrelations. He also has a complete chart in the chapter that shows all know mutants and their linkage. Should you have trouble finding a copy of the book (it sells for over $100 US) I am sure that if you are good and talk to Sue Cobey she will let you look at her copy. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:37:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garrett Dodds Subject: Re: eye color mutations Joe Thanks for the information. Do you know how to get a hold of Sue Cobey? Does she have an email address? Garrett Dodds 29480 January Road West Mansfield, OH 43358-9603 (513) 355-0290 dodds.12@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:37:49 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Bee-L Censorship (was "Re: bee testing") In-Reply-To: <9604191049.ZM5808@VIOLET.CHEM.WWU.EDU> Hi Kris I use the ether method and roll test in a clean quart jar. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:43:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Rearanging stores Hi Steve I have put old supers and sticky supers above the innercover for the bees to clean up. They will eventually clean them if they can. Some crystallized honey gets so hard that they just don't want to clean them. I read somewhere(maybe this list) that if you place the supers under the brood chamber, it will get cleaned much faster although the combs will get travel stained. Another thought would be to put the supers directly above the brood nest and allow the bees to expand the brood nest into them. The bees would clean the supers in order to make room for brood. Once the old honey is removed, put a queen excluder below them and the bees should fill them with new honey as the brood hatches. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:57:48 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: eye color mutations In-Reply-To: <960419193349_378758001@emout16.mail.aol.com> On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, my name is Dean M. Breaux wrote: > In a message dated 96-04-19 07:29:46 EDT, you write: > > > > >Dose any one have any detailed information on eye color mutations or know > >of a good source for the information. > > > >Garrett Dodds > > Garret > > One good source is Bee Genetics and Breeding edited by Thomas E. Rindere > Chapter #3 in his book deals with Visible Mutants the chapter was written by > Kenneth W. Tucker. Tucker writes on mode of inheritance, Dominance or > recessiveness, allelism, and in general about genic interrelations. He also > has a complete chart in the chapter that shows all know mutants and their > linkage. Should you have trouble finding a copy of the book (it sells for > over $100 US) I am sure that if you are good and talk to Sue Cobey she will > let you look at her co Hi Dean , I have a copy of Bee Genetics and Breeding by Dr. Rinderer and it cost me about $ 50 US in 1986 when it came out. ISBN 0-12-588920-8 Academic Press, INC. It is a very good book if you know something about genetics. Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:47:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Bee-L Censorship (was "Re: bee testing") JC>From: John Caldeira >Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:35:03 -0700 >Subject: Bee-L Censorship (was "Re: bee testing") JC>1. RE-USE OF APISTAN DOESN'T WORK. JC> "There are published reports from Europe showing 99% effectiveness of >Apistan strips used five times over a period of five years (Pechhacker, >1993). I have also received personal communication from knowledgeable folks >outside the U.S. attesting to good efficacy with multiple use. This issue >needs to be resolved as soon as possible." Hi John, I believe that this was resolved by the manufacture by changing the formulation or reducing the amount of total active chemical so that when the strips are removed from the wrapper what chemical is not lost in the packaging will soon be lost in the hive. Your guess as to if this was done to increase sales or protect the beekeeping industry. No, the retail cost of the strips did not go down because the amount of active ingredients were lowered as the cost of the total active ingredients is only a few cents to begin with and not a big factor in the cost. The packaging costs are more then the chemical costs, and the advertising costs are number one after the inflated costs to register the chemical which seems to have included the start up costs on the total business aromatized out to each strip sold. JC>2. LEAVING APISTAN IN HIVES LONGER THAN 8 WEEKS WILL ACCELERATE MITE >RESISTANCE TO FLUVALINATE. It is very clear that if your v-mite stratagem is based 100% on one chemical or chemical methods alone there is danger that you will in time become hooked on chemicals. This has nothing to do with effectiveness of treatments or your bees, its some kind of mental condition in rural folks. Just look around at your farm neighbors for examples. If it is true that resistance or contaminated honey is the results of leaving the strips in then you should have been reading of contaminated honey and hives with horrendous numbers of v-mites as many beekeepers early on have been leaving the strips in year around. I know one who has had his in for four years now and may be supplying you with your bees and queens which you will not find with any more v-mites then any others you could buy from any place that has v-mites. Could it be the plastic strips themselves are the control agent? I also know one other beekeeper here in California who has never treated at all with anything. His numbers slipped from 2000 hives to 500 hives in 3 years. Few mites could be detected in the 500 hives, in fact no more mites then in hives with strip in. In fact few mites could be detected in the hives that died, before they died, but they did crawl out and die and the last one's to do so did have v-mites on a large percentage of the bee's. The last 500 were doing good, and were all candidates for breeders with a interest in natural resistance to varroa. It's too bad the story of natural resistance and the opportunity to select and test from a large number of hives never treated with chemicals to control varroa mites ended when all 500 hives were stolen the spring of 1995. JC>3. IT WILL GET IN YOUR HONEY IF YOU LEAVE AN APISTAN STRIP IN YOUR HIVE >OVER THE WINTER. So what if it does? Does anyone expect that as expressed in parts per billion or trillion chemicals can not bee found in all bee products? Early on I did put a strip in a one pound glass jar of white honey. It concerned me more that the strip in that jar of honey was almost invisible to the eye. I could pass that jar to a beekeeper with a spoon telling him it was my best of the year and he would open it and proceed to enjoy the honey if I did not stop him. I could hand that jar to a group of beekeepers and tell them it had a full strip in it and they would not believe me as they passed it around for a look see. Since then the color of the strips has been changed and they may be a little easier to see in a glass jar of table honey. Yes when the honey was tested from the combs adjacent to the strips it did contain some chemical, so did the honey in the glass jar, but was it in a amount that could be harmful if consumed? We all are protected by God and the fact that contaminated honey when mixed with the uncontaminated honey in the extraction process is diluted enough not to be harmful and in most cases detected at action levels. Normal further processing of honey tends to mask and or dilute most problems, God is Good, God is Great! God Loves All Beekeepers! >even ONE substantiated case of fluvalinate from Apistan in honey? Is anyone looking is a better question besides the Sue Bee Honey Co-Op. Yes there are "cases" of fluvalinate being found in ppb in bee products depending on what you define a "case" as. If you mean that the national press gave time to warning the public of the danger of it all then NO substantiated case has been reported outside of the honey industry, so far. It is not a problem in Canada, eat Canadian honey! New Zealand er's, eat your own! It is also not a problem in the United States and not expected to become one. Amatraz is a problem for many beekeepers who have been found with it in their honey. Using Amatraz also is reported to cause a condition called "mad" bee's, as early on beekeepers who used it reported that in follow up work the bees were always's very aggressive and could not be handled without good protection and lots of smoke. This is a common condition of bees suffering from pesticide poisoning immediately after any application and suggests that these beekeepers may be poisoning their own bees which is not news. JC> I'm not a professional scientist, and won't support any position without >facts, but think we need to keep open discussion to learn the facts. And >if someone comes forward to tell us that the same moth crystals or menthol >is available at Walmart at a fraction of the price that Mann Lake is asking, >that's nice to know too. Well if you are a professional beekeeper you would know that not to share your wealth with as many middle men as you can is a NO NO even if the only difference between the source materials you are interested in is one word in the warning label or use statement on the package. JC>No one here is fit to be a censor. I don't no about censoring, but all my posts are filtered to remove the big chunks or something. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ To vacillate or not to vacillate, that is the question... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 22:37:36 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: eye color mutations I sure do. It is scobey@magnus.acs.ohio-state.ed By the way how the hell are you. I have had a very hard time finding any of the eye mutants. One other note I have found some things the hard way. 1. If you find some one with a queen that is producing mutants make a queen cage up and send it to them with detailed instructions on how to ship the queen to you or go and fetch her. 2. Don't get excited untill you see them. I have been sad many times. Cause they were just plain bees. I have had people send me queens in cages without candy or workers etc. and guess what when they got here they was dead and stank..... So heed note one. I still have not seen any white eyed drones from the queens that I I.I. so who knows the viability of drones in the white mutant eye color is very low in some of the groups. There are six diffrent mutant eye colors that appear white and then change to other colors. We will have to be patient. I only had a few drones from the queen. If you should happen to find any colors in addition to the ones I have here let me know I will do the same for you. The book by Rindere is a great book to have and well worth the cost. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 15:43:25 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: rearranging stores > I have put old supers and sticky supers above the innercover for the bees to > clean up. They will eventually clean them if they can. Some crystallized honey > gets so hard that they just don't want to clean them. I read somewhere(maybe > this list) that if you place the supers under the brood chamber, it will get > cleaned much faster although the combs will get travel stained. Late in the producing season boxes with frames of mostly unsealed honey can be a nuisance, as can frames of crystallised honey. NZ beekeepers I have worked for will sometimes put such frames in a super above the brood nest, but with a piece of sacking (burlap) that is about 50mm (2") smaller on each side than the hive size. That is, there is a 50mm gap all around to allow the bees 'up' into the super. But since the cluster can't/won't move up through the middle, the bees just seem to go up to get the stores and repack it around the broodnest. (Note that you should scrape the cappings on any crystallised honey, or even patches of ordinary sealed honey, else they won't move them). Then the next visit back, you can take away the empty and clean super, and know that the hive has put the stores where the bees can best get at it in the winter. Remember to do this after honey has pretty much stopped coming in, but before it is too cold for the bees to readily re-pack the stores for winter. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 01:05:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael Lance High Sr." Subject: Re: Package Bees - warning Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <199604190418.AA28566@internode.net> My sympathies Allen, I realize what a job 800 swarms sounds like.(And I grouse about 4-5!) My for what its worth,I always directly release the queens when installing and so far (knock on wood) have had no problems with swarming. I have installed in the morning, afternoon & evening and in cool cloudy weather, warm sunny weather, & lots in between.My humble opinion is it perhaps DID have something to do with the packing & shipping distance.Perhaps the bees were disoriented and simply decided to get some exercise before setting up shop.Anyway good luck with this batch, sounds as though they have a personality all their own. ML High "I take my chances,I don't mind working without a net, I take my chances,I take my chances every chance I get" Mary Chapin Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:07:13 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: My (Beekeeping) Picture Album Well, I don't know if this is the right thing to do or not, but here goes... I'm corresponding with a friend about what equipment I'm using, and I stuck a couple of pictures of my hive loader and the very interesting cradle that we use on the web. Visit http://www.internode.net/~allend/loader1.jpg if you like. loader2.jpg and loader3.jpg are there too. For a day or two. If you are interested and want details, write me direct. No. I did not invent it. Nope, I won't try to patent it, and yes AFAIK you are free to copy it. Maybe we'll start exchanging pix on BEE-L (Well not *on* BEE-L, but off BEE-L -- I think you know what I mean). If you have web space and a scanner, then the sky's the limit. Soon we'll have movies. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 23:19:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: SHolisky Subject: Re: rearranging stores Steve Pearce wrote: > These hives are strong, but they have come through the winter with 3 > full supers of honey each. This has now granulated and is solid in the combs. --------- Hi Steve, I would just put the brood nest "above" the honey, adding a couple of supers above that. Scratch off the cappings on the granulated stuff. If the hives are strong, they won't take long to move the stores up to where they belong. Sounds like you got quite a deal... Regards - Scott ( Pollen in the comb, one month behind last year! Long winters, St.Paul, MN ) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:22:07 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Package Bees - warning > My sympathies Allen, > I realize what a job 800 swarms sounds > like.(And I grouse about 4-5!) My for what its worth,I always > directly release the queens when installing and so far (knock on > wood) have had no problems with swarming. I have installed in the > morning, afternoon & evening and in cool cloudy weather, warm sunny > weather, & lots in between.My humble opinion is it perhaps DID have > something to do with the packing & shipping distance.Perhaps the > bees were disoriented and simply decided to get some exercise before > setting up shop.Anyway good luck with this batch, sounds as though > they have a personality all their own. Yeah, Mike. I really did't know what hit me, but it sure was a sick feeling. I just about threw up (excuse me, my sensitive friends) when I saw what had happened. However soon my sense of humour returned and I started to appreciate this $57,870 joke. (Ha ha).(Good thing it was only Canadian dollars). Actually when the dust settled, I guess only 5 or 6 queens went out, but they drew quite few friends from the neighbouring hives! After we equalise, I think the loss will only be $2,500 or so. Funny thing was that when I work these bees, I find that for so many hives, the bees are calm and normal, then I hit a bunch in a row that are hot, agressive, and show hostility to their queens (and me). I can only conclude that the bees came from two different stocks, and that they were bundled in groups in the shipment. But then CO2 does funny things to bees. I understand it de-programs them. As always when working with bees, I am mystified and humbled. It is a privilege to serve them and try to learn their many ways. Thanks for assuring me that this is abnormal and I'm not losing my mind. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 13:19:09 +0200 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: beekeeping pictures Allen Dick wrote: > I'm corresponding with a friend about what equipment I'm using, and I > stuck a couple of pictures of my hive loader and the very interesting > cradle that we use on the web. > Maybe we'll start exchanging pix on BEE-L (Well not *on* BEE-L, but > off BEE-L -- I think you know what I mean). > > If you have web space and a scanner, then the sky's the limit. > I think that's a good idea! A picture sometimes say more than any words. I'm scanning in pics now for my pages, and are going to bring the camera around with me this summer. So have a look if you want to see what I'm doing. Hope to get time to make a page with pics on useful gadgets later on. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 08:03:52 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: beekeeping pictures > I think that's a good idea! A picture sometimes say more than any words. I'm scanning in pics now for my pages, and are going to bring the camera around with me this summer. So have a look if you want to see what I'm doing. > Hope to get time to make a page with pics on useful gadgets later on. Yup -- nice page(s) and getting more interesting all the time. With all the pix, it takes some time to load, but I've set my cache on Netscape to 'never expire', 40 megs or so, and I open several brouser windows and let them fill in in the background while I do something else. Next time I take a look, they fill in instantly. I don't understand the stater box. Are all those big round 'holes' for ventillation? And the tin -- an entrance board? I assume that is queen excluder screen? Fascinating. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 08:38:38 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Archives I am trying to establish a filing system for my e-mail. I am looking for the archive for bee-l e-mail. I know it is in the body of a late e-mail, but I cant find it. Can someone e-mail me the archive address. Thank you JRT 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 18:07:44 +0200 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: beekeeping pictures Allen Dick wrote: > I don't understand the stater box. Are all those big round 'holes' > for ventillation? And the tin -- an entrance board? I assume that > is queen excluder screen? Fascinating. Allen, I will explain it all on my homepage when i have the time. Give me a few days more. (Your guess is pretty good though) I'm busy with the scanner for the moment. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:27:10 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: botulism My wife wants to know is there any connection between botulism and honey? Thank you JRT 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:16:06 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "pats@usa.pipeline.com" Subject: Old wax? I have been a beekeeper for about a year now. Today I removed a hive of bees from an overhang in someone's home. The lady told me the hive has been there for about 2 years. My question is--- is it safe practice to put the old wax and honey out for the other bees that I keep? There is a small amount of dark honey and some new, not capped honey, as well. Thanks ED in Beech Island SC. USA -- pats@usa.pipeline.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 21:19:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: botulism >From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" >To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L >Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:27:10 -0700 >Subject: botulism >My wife wants to know is there any connection between botulism and honey? It is always a good idea to ask your doctor. HINT FOR THE HIVE 128 INFANT BOTULISM AND HONEY Medical research has a few doctors to conclude that one cause of so-called "crib death" or "sudden infant death syndrome" may in fact be due to infant botulism (food poisoning). A number of public health officials now believe there may be many unrecognized cases of this disease each year, and honey has been implicated as a cause in a few cases. Symptoms vary from mild to severe, but there have been no cases found in children over 26 weeks old. The Infectious Disease Section and Microbial Diseases Laboratory of the California Department of Health have provided evidence that botulism spores in the infant intestinal tract may produce the growing stage of the bacterium, Clostridium botulinum. This in turn manufactures a highly toxic poison. So far this research indicates no reason why the disease is produced only in infants under seven months old. Botulism spores are found everywhere in nature. They are not harmful themselves, but in the absence of oxygen (anaerobic conditions), the spores germinate and the resultant bacteria produce the powerful poison. This is the reason all canned vegetables are heated prior to packing. Many raw agricultural crops, however, are never heated. And many foods, even if heated or processed, once exposed to the air would be susceptible to re-infestation by botulism spores. Cumulative research to date on infant botulism therefore suggests that there is an unknown risk factor in feeding any raw agricultural product, including honey, to infants under one year of age. Although honey has been blamed as a source of spores in a few infant botulism cases, some medical officials are not totally convinced about its role in the disease. Dr. Roger Feldman of the Federal Center for Disease Control (CDC) has stated that the data are not yet strong enough for the CDC to issue a warning about honey. But, he said, parents should be aware of the findings so they can make their own decisions. There may be other foods involved and honey may be no risk at all. We just don't know. These research findings in no way alter many published results that honey is a highly nutritious food source or that it is bactericidal. Only bacterial spores which are highly resistant to environmental stress can exist in honey and they themselves are not harmful. No other disease besides infant botulism has been linked to honey. The risk of this disease appears to be extremely small. The individual beekeeper can do little except be prepared to responsibly answer questions about infant botulism and honey. In all conscience he/she probably should refrain from advocating the use of honey in the feeding of infants less than one year old. This is something best left to the discretion of the parents and pediatrician. If the beekeeper is a packer or dealer in honey, he/she may profit by looking into the adequacy of his product liability insurance. __________________________________________________________ (//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////) (//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////) /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ : WILD BEE'S BBS Beekeeping Support BBS 209-826-8107 : : BEEKEEPING FAQ'S Beekeeper's Helping Beekeepers : : : : How to USE: : : : : To receive a Beekeeping FAQ via E-MAIL, send a message to : : to the FAQ name @beenet.com - For example, to get a copy : : of this message, (WILDBEES.FAQ), send a internet E-MAIL : : to: wildbees.faq@beenet.com ..To get a copy of the INDEX : : of APICULTURAL ISSUES AND ANSWERS newsletters (APINDEX) : : you would send E-MAIL to: apindex@beenet.com. : : : : Mail runs are 6am & 6pm, California time zone. The system : : and nothing is required on the subject line or in the : : message itself. : : : : FAQ (total FAQ's sent Feb/96 500) Last update : : name one per message * NEW : :------------------------------------------------------------: : WILDBEES.FAQ YOU ARE READING IT. Check it 03-14-96 : : once a month for changes! : : : : THYMOL.TXT Alternative Mite Control 03-14-96 : : using natural oils. **** : : : : PETA.FAQ This one is Unbeeleavable! 03-01-96 : : : : SOAP.TXT How to make Beeswax Soap 01-26-96 : : : : SOURCE.TXT Source of Info-Beekeeping Books 01-26-96 : : : : MEADLOVE.FAQ Mead Lover FAQ 11-21-95 : : : : HONEYPOP.TXT 100% Honey Pop recipes 10-30-95 : : : : YELLOJAC.TXT Yellow Jacket control. 7-25-95 : : : : FORMIC.TXT How to safely us FORMIC ACID * 7-25-95 : : : : YELLOW.PAG Internet Addresses of Beekeeper's 5-08-95 : : YELLOW PAGES, 30K, Stan G. Kain : : : : HINT.IND INDEX of 30 different Beekeeping : : topics. From Malcolm T. 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SYSOP : : andy.nachbaur@beenet.com, dial up (209) 826-8107 28.8 bd, : : 8N1, 24 hrs since 1990. : :------------------------------------------------------------: \__________________________________________________________/ --- ~ ~ ... Where the bee sucks, there suck I; --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Barbs has it, like a bee. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 01:51:06 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Queenless cell builders Hi Folks- I'm having some trouble with laying workers in a queen rearing setup, and I'm hoping to get some advice from some of you who may have already solved this problem. I'm trying to raise queen cells in a two-and-one-half deep, queenless, starter-finisher hive. After a few weeks, I find that laying workers are developing and messing things up. I start with pollen combs in the bottom, emerging brood and pollen combs in the middle, and bees and honey in the top super. I add a frame of seven-day-old sealed brood (no open brood) to the middle body every second or third day, taking out an empty comb, and change out the pollen combs as they get eaten up. Every third or fourth day I add a frame with 51 grafts to the middle body, and take one with sealed cells out. I have three frames of cells in the middle body at one time. This setup worked great for a while, producing nice, fat queen cells I can be proud of. Today, however, I opened up one of the builders I'm running this way, and I found that the most recent graft of 51 cells had been completely ignored, and the previous graft had been chewed away, except for two cells. When I went in to look for the problem (I thought I had a loose virgin), I found laying workers in the bottom box. I suspect I will see this problem again, soon. How can I keep a queenless starter-finisher from developing laying workers? I've been using swarm boxes and queenright finishers up to now, and I was hoping to simplify things by just putting grafts into a queenless unit. I suppose I could add open brood to the builder to inhibit the laying workers, but then I'd be back to searching to for swarm cells once more. Any ideas? Kevin Hollister, California ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 23:51:31 +1200 Reply-To: jkpmarsh@taranaki.ac.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Jonathon.Marshall" Organization: Taranaki Polytech Subject: Re: Archives On 20 Apr 96 at 8:38, Jeffrey R. Tooker wrote: > I am trying to establish a filing system for my e-mail. I am > looking for the archive for bee-l e-mail. I know it is in the body > of a late e-mail, but I cant find it. Can someone e-mail me the > archive address. > Let me know if you get one too, I'll be interested in a good fileing system. Kind regards Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 05:37:10 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: botulism In-Reply-To: <199604201927.MAA23284@castles.com> It is recommended that honey in any form should not be given to infants less than one year old. There have been no definitive studies but a high number of infants of this age group have developed botulism after eating honey. It is thought that their digestive system is not fully developed and cannot tolerate honey. Pasteurizing honey does not change the odds of the infant contracting the disease. After one year of age botulism is rarely a problem for anyone. All this is according to my 3 year old granddaughter's pediatrician at Emery University in Atlanta Ga. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 08:41:02 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: botulism > It is recommended that honey in any form should not be given to > infants less than one year old. There have been no definitive > studies but a high number of infants I don't know about a 'high' number. I believe the numbers are so small and occasional that a correlation has been hard (impossible) to establish beyond doubt. BUT there was (is?) a *suspicion* that honey might be inplicated in *some* cases of infant botulism. Andy's FAQ posted recently addressed the matter well. The spores in question are ubiquitous. They are found in soils, and easily introduced to foods by exposure to dust, etc. Sufficient spore levels would have to be present to cause a death. Surveys have been made of the frequency of botulism spores occuring in honey. I don't have the results at hand, but I suspect it has to do with the locale where the honey was produced and the water source the bees use, and the way the honey was handled, transported in supers, etc. For an episode to occur, a honey sample that had the proper botulism spores would have to be given to a child with a susceptibility for the problem. AFAIK, nothing has been proven, but prudence has caused many to exclude honey from the regular diets of infants. I don't think that there is much risk. It is probably lower than the risk of taking a kid for a ride in a car, so occasional exposure to honey is not a big worry. Some people, however were using honey in formula daily. So, don't panic if an infant is given honey on one occasion, and remember that far, far, far more infants have flourished on honey than have ever been even suspected of being harmed by it. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 08:52:33 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Archives At 11:51 PM 4/21/96 +1200, you wrote: >On 20 Apr 96 at 8:38, Jeffrey R. Tooker wrote: > >> I am trying to establish a filing system for my e-mail. I am >> looking for the archive for bee-l e-mail. I know it is in the body >> of a late e-mail, but I cant find it. Can someone e-mail me the >> archive address. >> >Let me know if you get one too, I'll be interested in a good fileing >system. > >Kind regards > > >Jonathan > Jonathan: I got a reply from Allen Dick. Bee-l archives are accessable through his home page. http://www.internode.net/~allend/ I pulled the present month archive. It is about 650k and it is a text file, so I saved it in Netscape with the same filename it came with. It is easier to save the file than to reload it from the archives. 650k takes a long time on a 14.4 modem. I am using a purchased version of Netscape so when I want to find information on a certain subject I open the desired archive file (previously loaded and saved from Allen Dicks home page) and use the find button. Yesterday I looked up "varroa". One just hits the find next button in the find window,and the program goes to the next occurance of the desired word or phrase. Computers are not my long suit so am still figuring things out. If you have more questions maby I can help. Good Luck Jeff 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:27:23 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Queenless cell builders In a message dated 96-04-21 01:55:13 EDT, Gypsybees@AOL.COM ((Kevin & Shawna Roberts)) writes: (Most of text deleted) >How can I keep a queenless starter-finisher from developing laying workers? I suspect the problem is trying to keep the cell builder going indefinitely. We start with brand new cell builders every two or three cycles. Usually the graft is best on the second time around, and declines after that. If you don't have the bee resources to build cells in such large colonies, you might try a smaller unit. I have tried all different size units, and pretty much settled on using one 10 frame unit, but I have often used a 5-frame nuc box and was sucessful most of the time. It needs plenty of young bees, plenty of pollen in the frame next to the cells and lots of syrup. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 11:32:56 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: authorized/approved use Hello All: After watching this Vmite thread I have some questions (this may be because I am new to the list) about treatment of bees. First what are authorized or approved products for treating bees in the U.S.? Secondly how does one define treatment? Is it changed by whether the honey is being harvested for human consumption? The reason I ask these questions is because of a thought progression I had a few days ago. For example if I open a hive and shake table salt on the bees, am I by definition treating them with an unapproved chemical? If I put vitamin E (approved for human consumption) in the syrup one feeds to bees are the bees being treated with an unapproved product? For those of you out there who know I would like to know how you see it. Thank You Jeffrey R. Tooker 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Swarming I have a hive that is building queen cells. I have removed 2 frames from it and destroyed all of the queen cells except for the one that I left on one of the frames that I removed. Will this help to keep this hive from swarmming or should I replace the queen? Also has anyone checked out the new webphone? I got a copy today and it is great. If you have webphone, give me a call sometime. I am online most anytime. -- *************************** * Charles (Rick) Grubbs * * digital@avana.net * * Douglasville, Ga SE USA * *************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 18:44:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: - Ed Levi Subject: Re: Archives this should help: Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX BEE-L" command to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET). You can then order these files with a "GET BEE-L LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more information on the latter. Good luck, Ed ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:42:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Greg and Melinda Holley Subject: requeening I am a second year hobbyist beekeeper trying to requeen a couple of hives. Everything I read says to find the old queen and kill her. I just went through all the frames in one hive twice and could not find the queen. I did find the frame with the most recent eggs. Does anyone have any suggestions?? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:01:56 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: requeening In-Reply-To: <199604212342.TAA03111@termserv.gfurrow.com> Sorry to put it like this but if there are eggs again is 4 days, keep looking. The old queen is in there somewhere. Good Luck Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Honey Heater Hello all - Yet another newbie to this group. I am in the process of converting a small chest style freezer (2' X 16" X 2' deep) into a heater for honey. I'm needing to know what wattage of bulb would work best for this type of heater and if one should install a thermostat on this heater, what kind of thermostat is recommended and what is a good temperature to maintain inside the heater? Any info would be welcome. I'm planning to mount the bulb in the bottom of the unit and build a metal shelf over it to hold 5 gal. buckets or jars. Thanks Barry Birkey West Chicago, Ill. U.S.A. bbirkey@interaccess.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:46:47 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: requeening In-Reply-To: <199604212342.TAA03111@termserv.gfurrow.com> You will have to find the old queen and kill her or else the workers will kill the new queen. Everyone has their own favorite method of requeening so here is mine. I find and kill the old queen and remove her from the hive. I then take the cork out of the candy end of the queen cage and place the cage face down on the topbars. Invert the inner cover on the hive to make room for the cage put the cover on and do not disturb for 4 days. Then check to see if the new queen has been released. If she has then check the hive to see if there are eggs present. If you find eggs close the hive check again at your normal interval for working the hive. at this time you may wish to locate the queen just to see her. If the queen has not been released, observe how the bees are acting toward her. If they are still biting the cage and acting aggressive then look for queen cells. The bees may be rejecting her and are trying to raise they own. If they are feeding the new queen through the wire of the cage, they are probably accepting her and you can release her directly into the hive. If there is no nectar flow on feed 1 to 1 syrup to enhance acceptance. Also when I receive my new queens I sometimes place the new queen on top of a super that has a queen excluder under it. I leave her there for the young workers to feed and keep warm for a few days before killing the old queen. I have found that sometimes helps if I'm having trouble getting a queen accepted. Like I said everyone has their favorite method and you will probably hear a lot of them. Just pick one you like and try it. Most will work this time of year. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 22:14:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Queenless cell builders >I'm having some trouble with laying workers in a queen rearing setup, and I'm >hoping to get some advice from some of you who may have already solved this >problem >How can I keep a queenless starter-finisher from developing laying workers? > I've been using swarm boxes and queenright finishers up to now, and I was >hoping to simplify things by just putting grafts into a queenless unit. I >suppose I could add open brood to the builder to inhibit the laying workers, >but then I'd be back to searching to for swarm cells once more. > >Any ideas? > > Kevin >From you post it would appear that you know the following but for the uninformed and FYI. Sealed Brood will not stop you from having laying workers no matter how offten you add it. The only two things that I Know of that will stop workers from laying are as follows: 1. A Queen 2. Open brood. In fact a study was done in the USA about the very thing that you are having trouble with and it was found that the open brood was a stronger deterent to laying workers than was a Queen. Just having the queen in the hive will not discourge laying workers. Very large colonies quite often will have laying workers high up in suppers etc. One other note It has been found that while there are as many methods of raising queens as there are people raising queens. The method that keeps coming up with the best queens is the method that you started with. Raising Queens in a queen right colonie has definite advantages over the queenless methods. In experiments with the method that you are using which is know as a collective colonies TARANOV got only 32.2% of his Queens with a weight of over 200mg. Whereas he got 51.7 percent over 200 mg in queenright coloines. It is an accepted fact that the heaver a queen the larger number of ovaries that she contains. ( a drop in weight of 10 mg can have the net result of 40 ovaries) queens with weights of 200 mg. have been shown to have an avarge of 330 ovaries. Before I start a flame session on the bee-L about queen rearing methods, let me also state the following. The method that you use is far less important than the condition of the colonie and its capacity to nurse the queen cells, Queen less or Queen right each of the methods will produce good queens. In regards to you question about laying workers. I have no good news to give you it is one of the pitfalls of that type of Queen rearing. Most of the operations that use that method, use the colonies 30 days and then start over. There is a method close to the one you are using that will enable you to raise queens in a queen less Colony see Steve Tabers book Breeding Super Bees. He has a method which works well. If you have any other Questions I will be happy to help. You can contact me at my phone number or Email address any time. Dean M. Breaux Executive Vice President Hybri-Bees "Breeding Better Bees" 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City, Florida USA 33525 (352) 521-0164 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 20:56:53 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin & Ann Christensen Subject: Re: Queenless cell builders ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB2FC5.40A2E260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---------- From: (Kevin & Shawna Roberts)[SMTP:Gypsybees@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, April 20, 1996 11:51 PM To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L Subject: Queenless cell builders Hi Folks- I'm having some trouble with laying workers in a queen rearing setup, = and I'm hoping to get some advice from some of you who may have already solved = this problem. I'm trying to raise queen cells in a two-and-one-half deep, queenless, starter-finisher hive. After a few weeks, I find that laying workers = are developing and messing things up. I start with pollen combs in the = bottom, emerging brood and pollen combs in the middle, and bees and honey in the = top super. I add a frame of seven-day-old sealed brood (no open brood) to = the middle body every second or third day, taking out an empty comb, and = change out the pollen combs as they get eaten up. Every third or fourth day I = add a frame with 51 grafts to the middle body, and take one with sealed cells = out. I have three frames of cells in the middle body at one time. This setup worked great for a while, producing nice, fat queen cells I = can be proud of. Today, however, I opened up one of the builders I'm running = this way, and I found that the most recent graft of 51 cells had been = completely ignored, and the previous graft had been chewed away, except for two = cells. When I went in to look for the problem (I thought I had a loose = virgin), I found laying workers in the bottom box. I suspect I will see this = problem again, soon. How can I keep a queenless starter-finisher from developing laying = workers? I've been using swarm boxes and queenright finishers up to now, and I = was hoping to simplify things by just putting grafts into a queenless unit. = I suppose I could add open brood to the builder to inhibit the laying = workers, but then I'd be back to searching to for swarm cells once more. Any ideas? Kevin Hollister, California Hi Kevin, I personally think that using a 2 1/2 story queenless unit for queen = cells is too complicated. We use a single story standard queenless unit and have very little = problems raising beautiful queen cells at 90-95% good cells per graft. = We run 24 such units and run a cycle every week. Each unit contains 3 = removable cell bars of 16 cells each (48 in total) which usually gives = us over 1000 good cells per week. First of all we select 24 exceptionally strong hives and bring them home = to the back yard. We remove most of the OPEN BROOD with some adhering = bees and the queen. We set them up elsewhere. We set the cell builder = unit up as follows: frame 1. Inside feeder for syrup 2. Frame of SEALED hatching brood 3. Frame Graft (48 cells) 4. Good pollen comb 5. Mixture of pollen & honey 6. Mixture of pollen & honey 7. Mixture of pollen & honey 8. Empty comb If the unit is not boiling with bees, shake a lb or 2 into them and fill = the feeder several hrs before grafting. We also have 8 strong 2 story queen-right Incubatuion Hives to store the = cells until the installation date which is the 10th day after grafting = (some people install their cells on the 9th day to avoid the danger of = emerging virgins). An incubation hive is simply a strong hive with the queen in the bottom = unit under an excluder. The top unit contains sealed brood mostly (some = open brood is ok). We store 3 or 4 grafts (144- 192 cells) in each, = with each graft between 2 brood frames for warmth. If the weather = happens to be cool, we often insulate the cell builders and incubation = hives. Sometimes here in Alberta we are forced to graft in the snow. Notes: a) we usually fill the feeder a 2nd time, a day or 2 after = grafting unless there is a heavy flow on willow or dandelion. b) we have a schedule of grafting every tues. morning. This = frees up Monday morning to move the completed cells to the incubation = hives and also to rework the cell builders. c) As we work the cell builders we move the original brood = frame all the way over to the opposite side and place another brood comb = (from the field) next the the feeder. Also make sure each previous = brood frame is checked for possible cells to avoid an emerging virgin = and disaster. d) Each week, on an evening, we shake 1-1 1/2 lbs of bees in = front of the cell builders and let them march in the entrance. Just = remember, the stronger the units (more bees) the better your success = will be. 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If you wish to remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at your earliest convenience: CONFIRM BEE-L You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially formatted so that you only need to forward it back to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to have the command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, so make sure to forward and not reply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- // JOB CONFIRM BEE-L // EOJ -- pats@usa.pipeline.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:49:40 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Re: bee treatments -Reply >This arguement between New Zealand and Hawaii is getting old. IMHO, you >guys are taking up too much bandwidth, that people have to pay for, with >meaningless "punch trading". Can we please put a lid on it? > >Does anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one? > > >Mike Wallace >Bkeeper1@why.net >McKinney, Texas USA >Don't cuss! Call Gus. He'll cuss for both of us. Mike - Right on! Barry Birkey bbirkey@interaccess.com West Chicago, Il. USA I wish there was a way that I could delete those messages without having to read them. I am getting about 40 messages a day now and deleting almost all. Lets get back to what is pertinant to most of us. Jame Peterson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 10:50:20 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Re: Plastic Bottoms & Tops Hi Tim I have a few of the plastic tops that came with some hives I bought from Kelley and I have had a problem with condensation. My solution was to prop the top up a little with an old queen cage. This provided adequate ventilation and solved the problem Frank Hi Tim I have 6 fiber glass bottoms that are about 15 years old and still working great. Frank, thanks for the tip on the top . I needed it. James Peterson, Ph.D. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 20:42:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Iannuzzi Method for Treating T-Mite Comments: cc: Kovac1 Frank , Bruno Reich , Romanik John 1. Since the appearance of tracheal mite, I've never used the recommended treatment of a 50-gram pak of menthol crystals applied about 1 sep when it is still warm enuf to convert the stuff to gas. 2. Today I placed a paper towel saturated w/vegetable oil (any kind; cheaper the better) between the two deep broodchambers. Within a week the bees will have removed it. Especially noticeable if one runs pollen traps as I do, on seven of my strongest colonies (only have 12 now). 3. I also do this September 1st when I repeat the treatment a week later. 4. In talks w/my fellow beekeepers who use menthol, my survival rate is as good as theirs. 5. Theory is that the oil makes mite transference between bees difficult. 6. I know that people use diluted formic acid for the same purpose even tho it is said to be "not approved yet." C'est la vie. Suum cuique. Jack the Bman Ellicott City Md USA Thermometer hit 84degrees here today; bees bringing in a green pollen (maple?) like mad (collected a full pound despite the fact Maryland USA is NOT pollen country; also visiting my plum, pear, apple, cherry and peach trees just breaking into bloom. Sun21apr96 2041edt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:06:43 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Keith Cutting Organization: Dartmouth College Subject: Package Bee's We receintly purchased packaged Bee's from a local bee supply enterprise. The dealer made a trip south and trucked the packages back. The packages were purchased queenless. We bought our buckfast queens from the Weaver's. When the packages arrived the sugar cans were empty. All the bees appeared vigourous and strong. All the packages were hived upon delivery and the queens introduced. Upon checking for queen release 5 days later we discovered our problem and hence my question. I should also note that all the queens had been released into the colony. My problem is that it appears that I am going to lose about 1/3 of the purchased colonys. On the day we checked the hives for queen release we found the bees in the questionable colonys to be extremely sluggish and or dormant. A check 2 days later on the suspected hives showed lots of dead bees approx. 90%. A visual exam for varroa showed a few bees with mites out of the several hundred examined maybe 10 had varroa. We have sent samples out for T-mite testing as I have not purchased a scope yet. I would be happy to supply more specific information to those who have furthur questions for me. What should I suspect or pursue in my investigations as to these losses? Thanks in Advance <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<: Keith.Cutting@Dartmouth.edu The Cutting Farm Kearsage Beekeepers Association PO Box 605 NH & VT Beef Producers Association Grantham, New Hampshire 03753 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:07:02 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Keith Cutting Organization: Dartmouth College Subject: Re: Iannuzzi Method for Treating T-Mite Comments: To: John Iannuzzi 2. Today I placed a paper towel saturated w/vegetable oil (any kind; cheaper the better) between the two deep broodchambers. Within a week the bees will have removed it. Especially noticeable if one runs pollen traps as I do, on seven of my strongest colonies (only have 12 now). 3. I also do this September 1st when I repeat the treatment a week later. John I read your post on this last summer??maybe. Anyway as a hobbist who is willing to experiment, I tried the paper towel treatment. I tend not to pull my honey supers off until mid to late sept. So I tried your treatment after I pulled my supers. Like you indicated within a week they had all the paper outside. So I applied the second sheet, winterized the hive, which for me is adding the entrance reducer. This was around mid Oct. and our nights are starting to get pretty cold then. During a warm spell in Feb., I did a quick check of my hives.I found 2 that had died in the lower box (2 deep system). They had not removed the paper towel and it acted as a barrier. They starved with a upper super full of honey above them. I might caution people who are interested in your treatment to make sure they don't make the same mistake I did. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<: Keith.Cutting@Dartmouth.edu The Cutting Farm Kearsage Beekeepers Association PO Box 605 NH & VT Beef Producers Association Grantham, New Hampshire 03753 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:33:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: Re: Honey Heater In-Reply-To: from "Barry Birkey" at Apr 21, 96 07:38:47 pm Barry, I have just the same set-up you are contemplating in use. I have had mine for 10 years and it works fine. I have an upright freezer with a clear heat lamp bulb in the bottom and a hot water heater thermostat wired in-line before the bulb. I located the thermostat about midway up the chest. My heater works like a charm, it is particularly good for heating cases of jars that have begun to turn. It will heat a case of jars overnight, but a couple of 60's may take 2 days. Hot water baths are superior for 60's in my opinion. Bill Lord Louisburg, NC > >Hello all - > >Yet another newbie to this group. > >I am in the process of converting a small chest style freezer (2' X 16" X >2' deep) into a heater for honey. I'm needing to know what wattage of bulb >would work best for this type of heater and if one should install a >thermostat on this heater, what kind of thermostat is recommended and what >is a good temperature to maintain inside the heater? > >Any info would be welcome. I'm planning to mount the bulb in the bottom of >the unit and build a metal shelf over it to hold 5 gal. buckets or jars. > >Thanks > >Barry Birkey >West Chicago, Ill. U.S.A. >bbirkey@interaccess.com > > -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 08:44:28 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug McCulloch Subject: Re: Package Bee's This could'nt possibly be a pesticide problem could it? Sounds too drastic too suddenly to be mites, not that I'm any kind of expert on it. Or perhaps the bees are older and are dwindling due to age and the stress of being relocated, etc. Just a thought..... >We receintly purchased packaged Bee's from a local bee supply >enterprise. The dealer made a trip south and trucked the packages >back. The packages were purchased queenless. We bought our buckfast >queens from the Weaver's. When the packages arrived the sugar cans >were empty. All the bees appeared vigourous and strong. All the >packages were hived upon delivery and the queens introduced. Upon >checking for queen release 5 days later we discovered our problem and >hence my question. I should also note that all the queens had been >released into the colony. > >My problem is that it appears that I am going to lose about 1/3 of >the purchased colonys. On the day we checked the hives for queen >release we found the bees in the questionable colonys to be extremely >sluggish and or dormant. A check 2 days later on the suspected hives >showed lots of dead bees approx. 90%. A visual exam for varroa >showed a few bees with mites out of the several hundred examined >maybe 10 had varroa. We have sent samples out for T-mite testing as >I have not purchased a scope yet. I would be happy to supply more >specific information to those who have furthur questions for me. > >What should I suspect or pursue in my investigations as to these >losses? > >Thanks in Advance > > > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<: >Keith.Cutting@Dartmouth.edu >The Cutting Farm Kearsage Beekeepers Association >PO Box 605 NH & VT Beef Producers Association >Grantham, New Hampshire 03753 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>: > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Verville Subject: Beepro bugs Comments: To: att!BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU While spring cleaning this past weekend, noticed little black bugs in the beepro. They are about 1/4" long by 1/8" wide with four mustard color dots on the back. They have wings and some flew away when I openned the top cover. ? Didn't seem to be bothering the bees. Dave Verville ECBA VP Topsfield MA att!mvcss!mvdfv ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:31:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Package Bee's KC>From: Keith Cutting >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:06:43 EST >Subject: Package Bee's >Organization: Dartmouth College KC>We receintly purchased packaged Bee's from a local bee supply >enterprise. The dealer made a trip south and trucked the packages >back. The packages were purchased queenless. Hello Keith, sorry to hear of your problems. If you have other hives you may be able to save the ones that are weak by adding frames of hatching brood. Queen less packages are no different then queen less hives. Few people would buy queen less hives and few people should buy queen less packages. Yes it works for others, but not all the time, and maybe when it does it is more a matter of luck then proficiency in keeping bees. I have sold tons of bulk bees, 20# in a cage, but would never sell small packages of just bees. It would be better to ship them with queens that could be removed at arrival for sale to others. >When the packages arrived the sugar cans were empty. This is not unusual, but sometime indicates that the bees were hauled over a high mountain, or may have got warm, or the syrup was too thin or bad. Packages without queens can get very runny and would consume all the syrup, if it was sour they would have a problem if held in a new hive without flight for very long. >All the bees appeared vigourous and strong. All the >packages were hived upon delivery and the queens introduced. Upon >checking for queen release 5 days later we discovered our problem and >hence my question. I should also note that all the queens had been >released into the colony. KC>My problem is that it appears that I am going to lose about 1/3 of >the purchased colonys. On the day we checked the hives for queen >release we found the bees in the questionable colonys to be extremely >sluggish and or dormant. A check 2 days later on the suspected hives >showed lots of dead bees approx. 90%. A visual exam for varroa >showed a few bees with mites out of the several hundred examined >maybe 10 had varroa. Without more information, it sounds like they ran out of food? It is unusual for bees to die in the hive. Normally the bees would clean out the dead bees as they died if they could fly. You would find then in front of the hive on the ground. What kind of weather did you have, could the bees get out and fly to relieve themselves? Were the hives protected from robbing? It could bee that the hives robbed each other out and the dead bees in the hive was the result of the battle losses. Was any kind of pesticide used to protect the hives from pests, such as ants? When bees collapse in the hive, this is not the norm. KC>What should I suspect or pursue in my investigations as to these >losses? I would start any investigation with other beekeepers who may have also received part of the same shipment after I reviewed what I had did myself that could have caused the loss. If others also also had problems you may have a better idea of the extent of the problem. I would never say package bee shippers do not ship poor packages, but more time then not something happens outside the control of the shipper. I would insist that any feed used in any packages contained Fumidal to protect the bees in shipment from stress. Because of the different degree of beekeeper experience when I sold packages they were guaranteed to the edge of my own ranch. Most of the buyers seemed to know more about using package bees then myself anyway, as being a bee & queen producer is much different then being a package beekeeper. Most package shippers are interested in your success with the bees. I would contact the shipper and inform him of your problem, who knows he may want to replace all or part of the bees you lost. Good Luck, ttul, OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 08:34:48 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Apistan resistance In-Reply-To: <199604191704.KAA10601@m2.sprynet.com> On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Frank Humphrey wrote: > Remember when you were in grade school and they gave you shots to make you > immune to various deseased. Those shots were actually the virus itself in a > weakende state so that your body could develope a resistence to the desease. > > Understanding that this works in humans, don't you think that it would also work > on bugs? Most agree that Apistan starts to deteriorate from day one and after > approximately 45 days, it is starting to get weak enough to allow the mites to > develop resistance to it. I'm not up on exactly why Apistan cannot be administered after the strips have been used. I always thought that resistance build-up in most agricultural pests was the result of heavy pesticide use, and that efforts such integrated pest management were designed to reduce pesticide use. I mean if Apistan can knock down something like 99% of the mites in the hive, then shouldn't there be intense selective pressure for a mite with enzymes to detoxify fluvalinate to multiply ? I took a course on pesticide toxicology this spring, and I asked the instructor why he thought used Apistan strips might induce resistance. He said that by hitting the mites with such a heavy dose would kill both resistant and non-resistant mites in the population. I think Frank may have been barking up the wrong tree in saying that mites are born unresistant and then become resistant with added fluvalinate pressure. Most documented cases of insecticide resistance in insects are the result of there being a few mutants at low-levels in the population and there being preferential selection for those mutants to reproduce under an insecticidal environment that kills off all the other non-mutant individuals in the population. The mutant is the resistant strain. These mutants typically resist the effects of the insecticide by producing enzymes that break the insecticide down before it gets to its target in the insect's body. They produce the enzymes not because their bodies have been stimulated to produce the enzyme because of the presence of the insecticide (although I do not discount that Frank, although I think insects and mites probably respond differently to xenobiotic pressures). Having said all that, the thing that just doesn't yet fit in my mind is the following : 1) didn't resistance in Italy result from beekeepers there using insanely-high doseages of fluvalinate. If so, why is Apistan also not selecting for resistance in the same way. 2) if the current levels fluvalinate present in an Apistan strip are able to kill resistant mutants in the population (because it goes in at such a high dose - assuming that this way of thinking is correct), than won't resistant individuals selected by using used-old strips be knocked back down when a fresh strip is used again ? Although I haven't been keeping-up with the censorship debate, I read John Calderia's post, and I must say that agree with him. No harm in discussing these things. It is obvious that a certain amount of discussion and organization must take place before the appropriate research can occur. I just got chewed-out by a beekeeper yesterday because he thought I was doing useless research that won't help beekeepers (i'm doing work on essential oils as antibiotics and miticides). While that may or may not be true, I think by checking my mail every day I get a better idea of what needs to be done ($ 0.02 opinion). Cheers, Adony **************************************** *** Adony Melathopoulos **************** ***** Center for Pest Management ******* ******** Simon Fraser University ******* *********** Burnaby, British Coumbia *** ************** CANADA ****************** **************************************** 'All bees are looking for bargins in nature's supermarket' - Bernd Heinrich e-mail : melathop@sfu.ca tel : (604) 29 14 16 3 > > I have been using Apistan according to directions for quite sometime and to my > knowlege I have not lost any bees to voroa mites. I have however lost some to > treachea mites. > > I test reguraly during the honey flow and have on occasion removed a colony from > production to treat them. This has worked well for me in the past and I expect > it will do so for some time to come. > > Frank Humphrey > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 08:41:05 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:36 -0400 From: L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b) To: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:36 Your subscription to the BEE-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at your earliest convenience: CONFIRM BEE-L You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially formatted so that you only need to forward it back to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to have the command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, so make sure to forward and not reply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- // JOB CONFIRM BEE-L // EOJ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:12:07 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Honey Heater At 07:38 PM 4/21/96 -0500, you wrote: > >I am in the process of converting a small chest style freezer (2' X 16" X >2' deep) into a heater for honey. I'm needing to know what wattage of bulb >would work best for this type of heater and if one should install a >thermostat on this heater, what kind of thermostat is recommended and what >is a good temperature to maintain inside the heater? > >Any info would be welcome. I'm planning to mount the bulb in the bottom of >the unit and build a metal shelf over it to hold 5 gal. buckets or jars. > >Thanks > >Barry Birkey >West Chicago, Ill. U.S.A. >bbirkey@interaccess.com > I cannot help you find a thermostat but I have successfully used an in car heater in a similar setup. The heater has a fan as well and I found it did a good job of liquifying honey in all areas of a large freezer. Eric Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:19:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Finding new bee-yard sites?? I find myelf in need of some new places to put colonies. (Generally 12 to a spot, sometimes just 6). My area is mostly rural, dairy/corn region. Can the commercial folks recommend ways of dealing with land-owners in order to have access to sites, or info on what you look for in a typical potential yard-site. Thanks for any ideas JWG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:39:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Dealing with the dead - advice? >You can take the dead and place the boxes below your strong colines and they >will clean them up were you can extract and store them with moth crystals. By >placing them below at least most of the dead naterial will not be pulled >across your good combs. I would advise that at the very least you dust with >Terramyacin during the clean up as a preventative. > >Dean Brreaux >Hybri-Bees >11140 Fernway Lane >Dade City Florida 33525 >352-521-0164 Thanks for the tip Dean. It sure is no fun cleaning out the dead, moldy brood chambers, but I'm making progress; they are really piling up. Fortunately, the number of soggy/leaky/moldy brood combs is not too bad; I'm consolidating these together and will get them to the strong colonies ASAP. Maybe I'll get lucky and the local beekeepers will let their bees swarm for me... I was also informed about CERTAN which is a moth-proofing compound (seems to me it might be bacterial); may try that but the best recourse is to get bees back on the combs to clean them up, I'm convinced. Regards, Joel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:37:28 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Honey Heater In-Reply-To: <199604221512.PAA01071@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca> Hi Eric Check with and electrical wholesaler for a thermostat. They have some that are rated for 110 volts and 220 volts and are adjustable. Normal household thermostats are rated at 24 volts so don't use that type. Just call the wholesaler or electrical supply house in your area and tell them what you want to do. If they won't sell directly to you, they will tell you where you can buy one. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 23:27:12 PDT Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Fluvalinate resistance Hello Adony, I thought that the appearance of fluvalinate resistant v-mites in Italy was possibly due to the use of weak solutions of Fluvalinates prepared from Sheep Dip treatments. Not only were/are the solutions weak but the diffusion of the chemical from the soaked wooden strips lasts only a few days. There is no sustained emission of the chemical such as occurs with the plastic impregnated strips of Apistan or Bayvarol. This would provide the selection pressure needed to produce generations of increasingly resistant mites. Classical Darwinism! Regards Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:15:57 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: research Comments: cc: Adony Melathopoulos Hello Adony: I have been looking into this natural oil and just more natural in general avenue for treating Vmites. It seems a very reasonable avenue of research to me, considering the amount of hard pesricides we have loose in the world today. I pulled BEE-L archives from 1-96 to present and took out the string on THYMOL. There seems to be some intresting work along this line also. Somthing I just remembered is that a friend of mine use to make jerkey. After it had dried for a week or so he use to put it in gallon jars (with cheesecloth over the hole) to dry for a while longer. He also put Bay leaves in it to keep out the bugs. It seemed to work. Just an idea. keep up the good work. Later Jeff 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 20:27:31 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "pats@usa.pipeline.com" Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Old wax? >----- Forwarded message (pats@usa.pipeline.com(pats@usa.pipeline.com)) -----< >----- Forwarded message (pats@usa.pipeline.com(pats@usa.pipeline.com)) -----< I have been a beekeeper for about a year now. Today I removed a hive of bees from an overhang in someone's home. The lady told me the hive has been there for about 2 years. My question is--- is it safe practice to put the old wax and honey out for the other bees that I keep? There is a small amount of dark honey and some new, not capped honey, as well. Thanks ED in Beech Island SC. USA -- pats@usa.pipeline.com -- pats@usa.pipeline.com -- pats@usa.pipeline.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:26:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerard Visel Subject: Spring Cleanup Hidere! I was just out in my workshop/garage cleaning up the hive equipment for spring, and found the consequences of not using para crystals on hive bodies and honey supers over the last year. Lots of wax moth damage, (plus a mouse nest or two.) I guess I deserve it for not taking precautions, but here I am. Question: How much of this will a strong hive clean up? Should I pitch/burn them all, or can I just scrape them clean and replace with foundation? Ideas? Gerry Visel Winnebago, IL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:38:43 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Re: Fluvalinate resistance I'm no expert in pesticide resistance, but David M. Noetzel, Extension Entomologist Emeritus from University of Minnesota, suggests in American Bee Journal (December 1995, page 791) that HIGH doses of fluvalinate would lead to faster resistance than lower doses. The thinking behind this is that killing 99% of the mites provides more selection for resistance than, say, a mite treatment that only kills off 80%. Sure wish we could kill 100% & be done with them! Cheers, John in Dallas At 11:27 PM 4/22/96 PDT, Glyn Davis wrote: > I thought that the appearance of fluvalinate resistant >v-mites in Italy was possibly due to the use of weak solutions of >Fluvalinates prepared from Sheep Dip treatments. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:50:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Heavy winter losses more stories ... > Western NY - commercial beekeeper observed while scraping his >deadouts , hives with "bee parts" strewn over the top bars and on the >frames. He stated "it was like they fell apart". I'm wondering if this >could be septicemia ? Is any one out there familiar with this ? I've been noticing this as well while cleaning out my dead hives. I just thought it was from the dessication of the dead bees - causing many wings and legs to fall off and appear strewn about (the pieces fall down thru the combs). The symptoms I'm finding are not like in past years. That is, not hives full of winter stores and no bees; more like clusters that appear spread out haywire and thinly scattered, or concentrated in small bunches in various parts of the hive. Really weird. Also floors just filled to capacity with dead bees. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:55:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Fluvalinate resistance There is a reliable treatment method which guarantees 100% mite knock-down. And conveniently, it's also a sure-fire method of swarm control! Of course, it involves dynamite... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:00:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eugene N. Dixon" Subject: Re: AFB eradication In-Reply-To: <960418223412_378247865@emout09.mail.aol.com> Gene Dixon dixone@sbe.acast.nova.edu On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter wrote> > > (BIG nuclear snip here) > > Does anyone know of a fumigation chamber or radiation chamber available > in, or near South Carolina? > > Oh yeah, I've already considered the nuclear waste dump at the Savannah > River Plant. Some of my bees are near there, and they can work nights, > because they have their own neon light..... ;<) > Au Contrar The Savannah River Site is the world's largest ecological controlled research park. A good point of contact for you to interact with them would bee Dr. Whit Gibbons, University of Georgia. Dr. Gibbons is an internationally known naturalist. The University of Georgia conducts extensive ecological research at the Site. Dr. Gibbons should be able, if he is not offended by insensitive (;-)) references to his research forum, put you in contact with scientist at the Savannah River Technical Center. They should be able to discuss the irradiation possibilities. They may be nice people. If I told you I worked there I would have to add a disclaimer to my signature. The standard government disclaimer is about a Gettysburg Address in length. I'll save the bandwidth. You'll have to guess where I gain full time employment. OBTW, the swarm I captured last weekend is no more. Opened the box, all were dead or MIA. All queen cells appear to be open. I am in mourning. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:06:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "pats@usa.pipeline.com" Subject: (Fwd) Old wax? >----- Forwarded message (pats@usa.pipeline.com(pats@usa.pipeline.com)) -----< I have been a beekeeper for about a year now. Today I removed a hive of bees from an overhang in someone's home. The lady told me the hive has been there for about 2 years. My question is--- is it safe practice to put the old wax and honey out for the other bees that I keep? There is a small amount of dark honey and some new, not capped honey, as well. Thanks ED in Beech Island SC. USA -- pats@usa.pipeline.com -- pats@usa.pipeline.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 22:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Ventilation Last summer at our Maryland State Beekeepers Assoc meeting, one of our members discussed ventilation with Dr. Ed Southwick. The local beekeeper, Dan Folk, said he has progressively increased the ventilation space in his inner cover by putting holes in the coners and covering them with screen. Each year he increased the size of the holes until he felt the ventilation was adequate. Moisture was a big problem and the increased venitlation prevented the moisture buildup. He said propolis was not a problem. Sadly, both passed away two month later. David Morris Laurel, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 22:36:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Spring Cleanup >Hidere! > > I was just out in my workshop/garage cleaning up the hive equipment >for spring, and found the consequences of not using para crystals on >hive bodies and honey supers over the last year. Lots of wax moth >damage, (plus a mouse nest or two.) I guess I deserve it for not taking >precautions, but here I am. > >Question: How much of this will a strong hive clean up? Should I >pitch/burn them all, or can I just scrape them clean and replace with >foundation? > >Ideas? > >Gerry Visel >Winnebago, IL Gerry- Three years ago I pulled out of my garage attic frames that had been up there for years. I had both deep brood and medium honey combs that were totally destroyed by moths. Frames having holes in them and edges being scalloped. I made new hive bodies but I reused all the frames. I put all new foundation in and cleaned the frames up the best I could and I never had any problem with the bees accepting them. For what's it's worth, that's my experience. Barry Birkey bbirkey@interaccess.com West Chicago, Il. USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 22:50:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: SHolisky Subject: Re: Honey Heater Hi Barry, For the 2 months out of the year we here in Minnesota don't need a room heater....har har. I use a small 1500 watt, room air heater, modified so the fan runs all the time. This with a digital thermometer reading the temp. I keep the chest under 160 deg's F. It'll do a 5 gal. pail in about 12 hours. Therm. also in the honey. Stir it! Burning not allowed here! Oh and cut a good size hole in the box. 3 or 4", you don't want to find one of the kids...(PS- this setup also works well for drying pollen) Regards - Scott ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 00:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "R. C. Chapin" Subject: spring feeding Spring arrived here (NE Pennsylvania) this week. Crocuses, dandelions, & forsythia blooming, willow & maple trees budding. Surviving bees stopped taking in pollen substitute from pan in yard & are getting their own with a vengeance. For the benefit of those who may also be trying the new "baggie feeder" method recommended in the otherwise GREAT catalog of Brushy Mountain Bee Farm: I tried the two gallon zip lock baggies in empty supers, on top bars. Maybe I cut the slits too large, but had hundreds of bees drowned; not nice after losing so many this winter. The catalog says: "You will love this method of feeding." Wrong, but that's the way we learn. Granted, the bees did take most of the syrup (some by standing on top of sisters ;-). If this method is to be used, Frank offers a good idea re. placing bags on top of queen excluder; that would make them easier to remove. I'm going back to large inverted jars in empty supers for feeding; that way they can be covered with insulation for those extra cold nights. Brushy Mountain should be commended for otherwise excellent advice throughout the catalog. Richard C. Chapin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 23:08:48 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Apistan resistance Adony; Don't give up on the research you're doing, it could turn out to be a REAL help down the road. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 23:12:09 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Finding new bee-yard sites?? Joel; Having just finished rounding up 12 yards for hives I will be moving this spring, I will take a stab at answering you question. Get yourself a county or area map, so you will know who owns the land, then you will know who to approach. Then just drive around your area, looking for good bee forage,(ask if it will be taken for sillage,that's cut too early) a relatively high site with good air drainage, good access, and good shelter.(Also not located too close to a residence) When you find that, check your map and go have a pleasant chat with the farmer, let him know that a pail or case of honey goes with the yard as rent(also let him know the benifits of pollination). We now pack our honey in 2.2 lb container and give the farmer a case for each yard every fall, they find the little container easier to deal with, and apprieciate them, takes a little more to pack, but in this business P.R. is almost 80% of the job. I hope I haven't oversimplified the answer, but not knowing what you needed to know, I included it all. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ---------------Original Message--------------- I find myelf in need of some new places to put colonies. (Generally 12 to a spot, sometimes just 6). My area is mostly rural, dairy/corn region. Can the commercial folks recommend ways of dealing with land-owners in order to have access to sites, or info on what you look for in a typical potential yard-site. Thanks for any ideas JWG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 05:55:53 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Finding new bee-yard sites?? > When you find that, check your map and go have a > pleasant chat with the farmer, let him know that a pail or case of > honey goes with the yard as rent(also let him know the benefits of > pollination). A young fellow I know goes to the liquor store and buys a selection of hard liquor, etc. and drives around to pay his yard rent each fall with honey and the case of assorted liquor in his pickup truck. He offers honey or liquor. Since some people don't care about honey, the option is popular and is cheaper than honey at current prices. The problem I can see is that some farmers I know might expect you to help them consume the rent payment. How would you get home? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 08:21:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Tupelo is on: Report from S. Carolina Tupelo has been cut over so much, that I tend to discount it as a honey source, but there still is some around, and when it yields, it really yields. Saturday we went into a bee yard about 9 AM. and it appeared that one was casting a swarm. Another beekeeper was with me, and he got all excited. I went to work, telling him we couldn't do anything until they pitched, anyway. As we worked, the swarm didn't pitch. Instead it built into a roar. Whenever I tilted a frame to find the queen, my shoes got soaked. Boy do I get high on the sight of bees with full bellies! We simply could not shake packages, as the bees would drown, if we did. Tupelo has been yielding all this past week, but I think the peak was about Saturday. Blackberry is just opening, while dewberry is still wide open. Most of what I've seen on the bees is pretty pure tupelo, with no fruity taste yet. Not all yards have been getting so much, but all seem to be working. We will be short of brood for nucs and splits, as they were so late, and the nectar has now blocked the queens. Many of the ones we had made into two stories, still had only a frame or two of brood in the upper box, where they usually would be entirely brood by the first of April. Now they tend to be one or two frames of sealed brood, and all the rest honey. Lots of folks have been looking for packages and nucs, but we can see that we won't have enough now for pollination needs on cukes and melons. Whew! What a week! Just over a week ago, we had come closer to the edge than I have ever come, with at least a couple hundred hives without a cell of sealed honey, and us running around, trying to get a little emergency feed into the desperation cases. Now everything is plugging up. I have seen things turn around in a hurry before, but never this late, and this close. God has richly blessed me, with a wonderful wife to work by my side, and now with productive bees, making the first serious honey we've made in several years. We loaded out the first truckload to go for Northeastern apples on Saturday night in a thunderstorm. It crackled a few times just as we started loading, then settled into a light shower. My wife was praying for the lightning to stay away (with us working on a steel truck bed, I appreciated that!). There was no more lightning. The beekeeper, a young fellow was determined to get loaded and on the road, no matter what. After our clothes were wet, the bees could poke us right through them, as if we were naked. Chuck took at least a couple hundred stings without a word of complaint. After forty or fifty, I start saying things I hadn't ought'er. Agriculture is an intensely seasonal thing. When the time comes to do a particular thing, it MUST be done, no matter how tired, or how adverse the circumstances. If it isn't, then the season is past, and the opportunity missed. I am thankful that we still have people in agriculture who have the committment to do what needs to be done, even if there is personal cost. There are many workers, who put in their time, anxious for the magic hour when they can quit work and go to their preferred lives. In agriculture, the work has to be the preferred life. We are blessed to have people like that. I thank God for them. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:44:13 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: Spring Cleanup At 03:36 AM 4/23/96 +0000, you wrote: >>Hidere! >> >> I was just out in my workshop/garage cleaning up the hive equipment >>for spring, and found the consequences of not using para crystals on >>hive bodies and honey supers over the last year. Lots of wax moth >>damage, (plus a mouse nest or two.) I guess I deserve it for not taking >>precautions, but here I am. >> >>Question: How much of this will a strong hive clean up? Should I >>pitch/burn them all, or can I just scrape them clean and replace with >>foundation? >> >>Ideas? >> >>Gerry Visel >>Winnebago, IL > >Gerry- > >Three years ago I pulled out of my garage attic frames that had been up >there for years. I had both deep brood and medium honey combs that were >totally destroyed by moths. Frames having holes in them and edges being >scalloped. I made new hive bodies but I reused all the frames. I put all >new foundation in and cleaned the frames up the best I could and I never >had any problem with the bees accepting them. For what's it's worth, that's >my experience. > >Barry Birkey >bbirkey@interaccess.com >West Chicago, Il. USA > I was fortunate that I only lost one colony this past winter so when I ccptured a large swarm last Friday, I gave them the mess. I checked them on Monday to put in mite strips and found that they have already completely cleaned the old comb and the queen has laid in two frames. I'm going to do them dirty and take back some of those old frames and let them draw some foundation out for me. Frank Humphrey Beekeeper@worldnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:12:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Spring Cleanup REGARDING RE>Spring Cleanup Gerry Visel writes: " I was just out in my workshop/garage cleaning up the hive equipment for spring, and found the consequences of not using para crystals on hive bodies and honey supers over the last year. Lots of wax moth damage, (plus a mouse nest or two.) I guess I deserve it for not taking precautions, but here I am. Question: How much of this will a strong hive clean up? Should I pitch/burn them all, or can I just scrape them clean and replace with foundation?" I have always found wax moth damage very depressing. Bees will not clean out severe moth damaged frames, but if there are only several moth tracks in the comb, you can scratch them out with a hive tool and the bees will repair it .The wooden ware is usually still OK, unless the worms have tunneled into it excessively making their cocoons. If so, I pitch out the whole frame and burn it. If sound, just replace damaged comb with good foundation. Mouse damage, on the other hand, is usually easily repaired by the bees. I usually put each frame where the mouse nest was between two very good frames , and the result is as good as new. I have lots of frames with a round patch of new yellow comb in the middle of dark comb. In the same way, mouse nibblings on the side of a comb are quickly repaired. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 18:44:10 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Ventilation In-Reply-To: <9603188298.AA829860272@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > Solution: Took a wooden inner cover with the open hole and drilled, > using my 2.5 inch door knob drill bit, four additional holes. These > were covered with 8 to the inch screen (hardware cloth, for those in > the US). This is much the same as many people in my area use. We have smaller holes (about 1.25) and omit the screen. Our ventilation on the telescopic roof is typically via a cutout under the metal cover, which stops rain blowing in and allows the roof to close tight. We seal *this* opening with mesh as it's well away from the nest and the bees propolise it less. We also put a baffle near this opening to help keep the light out. Provided the bees have *room*, it doesn't matter that they can get above the cover board, as they only build comb below the board by choice. If I'm uncertain whether they have enough room, I'll put the next super above the cover board ready, so that if they *do* go up there, at least they build where I want them to. I have a 1.5" deep surround on top of the coverboard, so I can just flip it opside down in the spring when I put on pollen supplement. Sometimes they do then build comb under it, but it normally comes off ok. It works for me. Hope the pic helps. +--------------------------------------------- <- metal | +------------------------------------------- <- wood/OSB | | +--------+-+----------------------------- | +--+: | | | :<-mesh | | | : | | | +-+: | | <- ply baffle, wider then vent -> | |+------+| | the mesh covered vent. 4" wide / || || | | || |+-+ | |+------+ | | +-------+ | | | | <- coverboard surround Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 12:38:12 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Iannuzzi Method Endorsed by Scientists? > 2. Today I placed a paper towel saturated w/vegetable oil (any kind; > cheaper the better) between the two deep broodchambers. Within a > week the bees will have removed it. I wonder about this. Is this scientifically proven to do anything related to T-mites? It would logically seem that there would only be vegetable oil presence in the hive for a short time using this procedure, unless the oil goes into the wax, or something of that sort. I thought that Sammataro et al indicated that continued presence over time is the secret to measurable success with grease patties, at least. Perhaps I misunderstood. I would be interested to know if there is any data (measurement compared to controls) for rational evaluation of this towel recommendation or if this idea is yet unproven. Many of us have been getting along with no treatment for TM, so just simple colony survival with no controls or measurement of mite levels is no indication of efficacy. The mechanism of TM control using oils and grease is not well understood (AFAIK), so if this is scientifically proven, then measured and proven success with this technique would give some insight into the mechanism, perhaps. It would be nice to know that there is a proven alternate method to putting grease patties on, but is there? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:59:42 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Bees in a wall of building Help! I recieved a "swarm call" today and when I got there the wife said that a great number of bees disappeared into a crack in the wall. Sure enough there are bees going in and out of a crack in the brick wall. I removed a brick and discovered it to be just the entrance to a hive in the wall some where. I have read about mounting a hive on the wall and covering the entrance of the wall hive with bee escapes. I don"t remember what I should put in the hive. If I put brood in it, they will build another queen and there will be another hive there to accept the bees that come out and can't get back in. Eventually the queen inside would loose all her subjects and die. Has anybody had experience with this procedure? Is there a better way of getting the bees out of there? Shall I walk away or be a good guy and help these people? Thanks for being here to ask! James Peterson Ph.D. james.peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 22:02:04 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Re: (Fwd) Old wax? I have been a beekeeper for about a year now. Today I removed a hive of bees from an overhang in someone's home. The lady told me the hive has been there for about 2 years. My question is--- is it safe practice to put the old wax and honey out for the other bees that I keep? There is a small amount of dark honey and some new, not capped honey, as well. Thanks ED in Beech Island SC. USA -- pats@usa.pipeline.com -- pats@usa.pipeline.com HI: I don't know about the old wax, but would like to know how you extracted the hive. James Peterson, Ph.D. james.peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 16:58:54 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jane Beckman Subject: subscription confirmation strangeness I got a message asking me to reconfirm my subscription to BEE-L and I followed the instructions for confirmation. What came back was: > CONFIRM BEE-L You are not subscribed to the BEE-L list. Okay, can someone explain to me how it is that I'm not subscribed to this list, in the eyes of the server? The listserver for the list certainly seems to know what my email address is! Jane B. [jane@swdc.stratus.com] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 15:06:55 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Erik Seielstad Subject: Re: subscription confirmation strangeness Comments: To: jane@swdc.stratus.com Hi everyone I should have sent a note around earlier - as you may have noticed, our bee-l list is going through a few changes. First off, the listserv will be asking each of you to "confirm" your subscriptions. Anyone who doesn't send back the confirmation will be unsubscribed from the list. Similarly mail from anyone not subscribed to the Bee-l list will be sent to me for approval. Hopefully this may reduce some of the junk mail posted to lots of mailing lists. Of course it creates a few new problems...such as: Jane Beckman wrote: > I got a message asking me to reconfirm my subscription to BEE-L and I > followed the instructions for confirmation. What came back was: > > > CONFIRM BEE-L > You are not subscribed to the BEE-L list. > > Okay, can someone explain to me how it is that I'm not subscribed to > this list, in the eyes of the server? The listserver for the list > certainly seems to know what my email address is! this is part of the reason for the annual "confirmation" messages. You see, when you subscribed to the list, the listserv picked up your address as: jane@STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM Jane Beckman and that is where all the mail is being sent. Your confirmation cam from the address 'jane@swdc.stratus.com', which (to a computer) is a completely different address. so you have two choices, either send an "ok" message from the stratus.swdc... address, or send a subscribe command from your new address, and let the "confirm" messages sign the old address off the list. Erik "benevolent bee-l dictator" Seielstad -- Erik Seielstad | Systems Programmer/Analyst Internet: erik@acspr1.acs.brockport.edu | SUNY College at Brockport ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:02:09 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Negative Responses To all on the net: Andy Nachbaur recently wrote: "I don't [know] about censoring, but all my posts are filtered to remove the big chunks or something." In that connection, I have followed the exchange about New Zealand and Hawaii bee diseases with great interest, particularly the degree to which personal affronts have been alleged to have occurred. Oftentimes, differences of opinion become construed as insults (perhaps justified in some cases). Such was the case early this year when a beekeeper concluded that I had personally insulted him in one of my messages --- a supposed intent of which I was unaware. Might I suggest routinely engaging in a practice that some of us view as the Ann Lander's rule (after the advice columnist) and try to follow. In each of the cases where I have read a posting that contains potentially sensitive topics, and to which I wish to reply, I draft a reply immediately but do not post it right away. Rather, I wait at least a day, read it over again, gain input from other postings on the topic, soften the language of my own expression, if necessary, and then post it on the net. Such a practice differs considerably from a "shooting from the hip" upon first reaction and can save a lot of net time for all of us. Of course, some people still can become offended by opinions that differ too radically from their own and can consider expressions of such opinions as offensive. We just have to live with that circumstance sometimes. (And, yes, I did wait several days before posting this message.) Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * * "Once a structurally complete and closed system of opinions * *consisting of many details and relations has been formed, it * *offers enduring resistance to anything that contradicts it." * * Ludwik Fleck, 1935 [1979] * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:54:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: Don't try this at home, kids At 08:01 AM 4/17/96 -0500, you wrote: To continue the thread: Dick Allen writes: >Without going into great detail again, I'll just say that the furor >over AFB and other diseases in North America seems to be to a large >extent promoted by the new equipment purveyors and government >agencies who used them to justify their own existence. Years ago when I started in bees, there were alot of fruit growers trying to keep their own bees. Some growers bees were full of foulbrood, and to boot the bees were in new equipment. I took over many hives and dusted the lot of them every week until it cleared up. That was over 12 years ago. Dick Allen: We see a little foulbrood from time to time (in less than 1% of our >hives) but I have to tell you that it is always due to the fact that >in a large outfit sometimes groups of hives are missed in medicating -- >sometimes for long periods of time. Indeed, we have the same situation. Less than 1% of our hives will show any AFB. Some of our helpers have never seen any in our hives since they worked here. I'm still looking for an opportunity to show them ropy larvae and scale. Dick Allen: We do not scorch boxes, we do not boil frames, and quite frankly, >we don't worry about the odd cell of scale when making up brood >chambers, We try to look at all the combs, but there is always some >scale that hides out under pollen or honey, or is just plain missed. >We do have to work on cloudy days sometimes. We dust a couple of times in the spring, in addition to a terra patty. We found that for us, the terra patty wasn't enough. We need to dust a little too. For us, AFB is a non-problem. It's last on the list of our troubles. Kirk when you get lemons, make lemonade..... Kirk Jones b-man@aliens.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:55:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: April issue of APIS Distributed to: USR:[MTS]INTERNET.DIS;86, mts FILENAME: APRAPIS.96 Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) Volume 14, Number 4, April 1996 Copyright (c) 1996 M.T. Sanford "All Rights Reserved" TOWARD HONEY BEE DOMESTICATION--THE VARROA CONNECTION 1987 was a pivotal year in U.S. beekeeping. Introduction of the Varroa mite in October sent a shock wave through the beekeeping community that reverberates to this day (see October 1987 APIS). It has meant changes in management practices, increases in operating expenses and losses of many honey bee colonies. Paradoxically, it has also ushered in renewed opportunities for beekeepers in the pollination area, as growers and others noticed reduced numbers of honey bee pollinators in the environment (see July 1995 APIS). So far, only anecdotal information and "guesstimates" have been made about the full impact of Varroa on unmanaged honey bee populations. Given the dynamics of the situation, we probably will never know the full story. It is clear that a new kind of honey bee management is emerging from the parasitizing effects of the Varroa bee mite. Two kinds of beekeepers can now be identified; those with experience "before Varroa," and those who began apiculture "after Varroa." Persons in the latter category cannot appreciate the relative laissez-faire beekeeping possible in the past. This state of affairs is also being reflected in the bees themselves. No longer able to exist in large numbers in the wild, these insects are being pushed toward a greater reliance on humans that can only be called "domestication." According to Dr. D.F. Morey, "Some time in the past 12,000 or so years, most of humankind began to experience a profound shift in life style. Stone Age hunters and gatherers of wild foodstuffs started to cultivate plants and raise animals for their own use." (The Early Evolution of the Domestic Dog, American Scientist:82, Jul-Aug, 1994, pp. 336-347). Given the role of animal and plant domestication in human welfare, Dr. Morey says, there is no surprise to find argument about what it really is, how it originated and why. There are two theories on the subject: 1) domestication was a rational decision by people to raise, cultivate and manipulate organisms, or 2) domestication was the consequence of evolutionary chang in physiology (processes) and morphology (structure) by organisms in response to a new ecological niche--association with humans. Dr. Morey concludes that the former of the above questions is flawed because it focuses on the human role in the process. An evolutionary model, he says, is more scientific and would include not only morphological, but behavioral changes not necessarily the result of human action. The major problem, Dr. Morey concludes, is that we cannot get into an early human's brain to figure out what was being thought at the time. The dog is likely the first domestic animal Dr. Morey says and provides some insight into how it indeed has changed to adapt to living with humans. A range of other animals along with their time of domestication is published in a chart accompanying Dr. Morey's article. Significantly, no insect appears. Two possible candidates would be the silk worm and honey bee. Most beekeepers know the history of the latter, a creature that historically resisted domestication at every turn and to which humans had to adapt. As far as we know, few changes occurred in either honey bee structure or behavior to accommodate to humans similar to those in the domestic dog. This is in spite of the fact that both organisms have been associated with humans for almost as long. The coming of Varroa, however, may signal an end to this historic independence of honey bees from humans. Wild colonies are declining and managed ones need beekeepers far more than ever before to survive the devastating effects of the mite. And unlike with early humans domesticating the dog, we can determine intent. Beekeepers could simply let all colonies infested with Varroa go without treatment. It would take a great many years, but in the end a mite-resistant or -tolerant bee would emerge. Instead, humans keep honey bee colonies alive by chemical intervention because they are valuable to us for a number of reasons, a clear case of willful domestication. THE AFRICANIZED HONEY BEE--A RISK TO HUMAN HEALTH? The coming of the Africanized honey bee has prompted a review of the possible human health risks posed by this insect. Dr. M.J. Schumacher and N.B. Egen, Department of Pediatrics, University of Arizona College of Medicine, Tucson, AZ, published their findings on this important topic (ARCH INTERN MED: Vol. 155, pp. 2038-2043) in October 1995. The paper describes the effects of the venom, evaluation and treatment of multiple bee stings (toxic envenomation) and the recognition, management and prevention of allergic reactions to Africanized bee stings. The last topic above also includes European honey bees, for the authors conclude there is little difference between the venoms of the races. Both have almost equal amounts of similar major components: melittin, phospholipase A2 (PLA2), hyaluronidase, apamin, histamine and mast cell degranulating peptide. This means that there is little difference between risk to humans posed by the venom of either Africanized or European bees. The major difference between the two bee types, according to the authors, is the possibility of mass attack, shown to be more prevalent in Africanized honey bees. Many individual stings can result in poisonous (toxic) reactions to the venom that are not related to allergy. And such reactions (toxic envenomation) can occur from as few as 50 stings. Studies of specific incidents show that the dose of venom per body weight is extremely important in determining subsequent effects. Specific symptoms and treatment for toxic envenomation are described by the authors. Things can also get more complicated when both envenomation and allergic reactions occur together, according to the authors. It may not be easy to determine which is in fact occurring, and they recommend treating for both conditions if in doubt. The article gives advice on prevention of both envenomation and anaphylaxis (allergic reaction). In particular the authors recommend education programs to alert the public about what to do in case of attack: outrun the bees and cover the mouth and nose prevent airway stings. They say only trained personnel should attempt to remove established bee nests in areas of Africanized bees, and people enjoying outdoor recreation should always be on the alert. Most at risk are workers who clear vegetation or cut tall weeds and grass with machinery. Athough massive stinging attacks by Africanized honey bees are now rare, this bee may spread to warmer areas, the authors concede. Treatment of severe toxic reactions to multiple stings should include management of shock and possible organ damage. And patients with trivial allergy could be more at risk from anaphylaxis because of multiple stings. Any physician treating bee stings could do well to have this article on hand for its relevant, complete and up-to-date information. I will send a copy to anyone upon request. SEX DETERMINATION--WHITHER THE Y? The genetics of honey bees is complex and confusing. The queen honey bee, a single individual, is the source of all the eggs in a colony, half the genetic material of any individual worker bee and the full amount provided to every drone. In the worker's case, the other half of their genetic material is donated by the drone in the form of sperm; the queen mates with several drones (see following article). She stores their sperm in her body until it is needed. This system results in a colony of several related subfamilies with the same queen mother, but different fathers. Each subfamily may also have a different penchant for certain work in a colony. For example, there may be nectar foraging, pollen foraging and undertaking specialties in these groups, reminiscent of guilds or professions in human society. The queen honey bee has the ability to choose whether or not to fertilize each egg she produces. All fertilized eggs become females in a colony; they are characterized by 16 pairs of chromosomes (32 total). This organization composed of chromosome pairs is called diploid. Drones are produced only from unfertilized eggs, a process called parthenogenesis. They are haploid, having only one-half the number of chromosomes (16 total) that have no complementary pairs. This honey bee genetic system, therefore is named as a combination of both conditions, haplodiploid . It results in interesting things such as half sisters, super sisters and on rare occasions, diploid drones. For social insects, haplodiploidy allows individuals to give up their lives through "altruistic" behavior with a minimum loss of their own genetic contribution. It also results in a supremely female society, a matriarchy of the first order where males a relegated to a relatively minor role. They not only become expendable during the mating act, but are the first members of the colony to be eliminated in the face of stressful environmental conditions. The genetic system in humans is quite different. All eggs are fertilized, so all individuals are diploid. Sex determination is the result of combinations of two sex chromosomes, the X and Y. If an X and Y come together, a male results; two X's become a female. Pretty simple. And, as Kenneth Miller suggests in "Whither the Y" (Discover, February 1995, pp. 36-41), his Y chromosome has dominance in all cases, whether it be use of the male pronoun when gender is unknown or immediate access to jobs, promotions and raises in what some call "good-old-boy circles." In addition, the male surname is also the default bestowed on any female becoming married in most western human societies. Male gender was a defining force in school, Mr. Miller says, where he learned that boys did indeed have something that girls lack, even in their genes. If a Y chromosome exists, for example, no matter how many X's there might be in humans, the male sex prevails, Mr. Miller says, ensuring human male supremacy. Here is his vision of fertilization: "I imagined the poor little passive X chromosome just waiting to see whether the lucky sperm...carried an X or a Y. In either case, the X had to wait for the male to show up and make the decision. The Y really is the boss." Although perhaps dominant, however, unlike a single X chromosome, the Y cannot go it alone. It requires an X for development to continue, Mr. Miller says, his ego somewhat deflated. That's because the X carries many genes required for muscle development, blood clotting and color vision. Unfortunately, Mr. Miller is forced to conclude, the human Y chromosome turns out to be a genetic wimp, carrying only 15 genes to the 1,500 to 5,000 found on the X. The puny Y is a result of a Faustian bargain Mr. Miller says, quoting Dr. William Rice, University of California, Santa Cruz. Not only do the X and Y chromosomes become different over time (the Y loses genes as it becomes more "self-centered"), but the Y also loses its genetic repair mechanism in the bargain. Presence of the small Y limits protection from defective genes that may be found on the X, the reason color blindness, hemophilia, Duchennes muscular dystrophy and many other conditions occur mainly in men. The two more robust X chromosomes in females can often recombine with each other to fix errors that might occur due to mutations or other factors. The Y, however, has very few genes to compensate for (complement) mutations on the X and this all-important recombining ability is compromised. Thus, Mr. Miller says, "...the Y accumulates one mistake after another as it is passed from father to son...shrinking in function, until nearly all but the sex- determining gene has been discarded." Mr. Miller concludes that this process could elminate the Y chromsome altogether. The defining genetic feature of human maleness, therefore, might not be the presence of something, but lack of it--a chromsome. The result: a species where females are XX and males are XO. This has already happened in some fruit flies and fish. Mr. Miller mourns what he sees as the eventual loss of the Y chromosome and suggests that the male pronoun rule and other privileges are nothing more than logical compensation for the genetic weakenesses endured by men. Taken to the extreme, could male humans end up like male fruit flies, as Mr. Miller fears? Or even worse, like honey bee drones? My sources say it's not likely. Although XO's are males, so are XY's, the normal situation in some fruit fly species. More significantly, only the sex chromosomes are involved, the rest of those in the body do not have the same dynamics. Drone honey bees are a different kettle of fish. They are effectively XO in the strictist sense for all genes. With only a single set of chromosomes, none have a complement, leaving all of them unprotected against deleterious genetic change on the X chromosome. HOW MANY DRONES? How do we know what we know? This question can plague the educator who is supposed to be on top of things. It stops us cold at times. We have said it for so long, it seems like second nature. Yet, often we don't really know its source. Take the following question, for example. How many drones mate with a queen during the brief time when she is receptive? I usually say 10 to 15, perhaps 17 when I'm expansive. Thanks to Steve Taber, retired from the U.S. Department of Agriculture for many years, but who continues to write in American Bee Journal, I now know where this information comes from. In his recent article (April 1966, pp 261-2), Mr. Taber gives us the scoop, not in spades, but in marbles. For after all is said and done it becomes a statistical question. Mr. Taber put it this way to a statistician: "Given: a large container with black and white marbles, (the marbles represent marked and unmarked drones), which are well shaken up, you reach in with a scoop and withdraw some and record whether the marbles are either all black, all white or of both colors. At the end of several hundred of these samples the question is asked, 'What is the average number of marbles in each scoop sample?' Of course the 'scoop' represents the queen on a mating flight." The results from Mr. Taber's data and investigations into the matter agree with those of some other studies. The conclusion is a happy one. It vindicates what we educators "knew" all along. Queens mate with about 10 drones on the average during their mating period. Sincerely, Malcolm T. Sanford Bldg 970, Box 110620 University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Phone (904) 392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX: 904-392-0190 BITNET Address: MTS@IFASGNV; INTERNET Address: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU APIS on the World Wide Web-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm Copyright (c) M.T. Sanford 1995 "All Rights Reserved" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:22:06 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "James C. King" Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:27 -0400 >From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" > >Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >To: "James C. King" >X-LSV-ListID: BEE-L > >Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:27 > >Your subscription to the BEE-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to >remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at your earliest >convenience: > > CONFIRM BEE-L > > >You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a >CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. > >PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially >formatted so that you only need to forward it back to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to have the >command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding >function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, >so make sure to forward and not reply. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >// JOB >CONFIRM BEE-L >// EOJ > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:31:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Hendrick Subject: Re: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list In-Reply-To: <199604232023.QAA23069@dns.enter.net> CONFIRM BEE-L >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:27 -0400 >From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" > >Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >To: "James C. King" >X-LSV-ListID: BEE-L > >Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:27 > >Your subscription to the BEE-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to >remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at your earliest >convenience: > > CONFIRM BEE-L > > >You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a >CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. > >PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially >formatted so that you only need to forward it back to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to have the >command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding >function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, >so make sure to forward and not reply. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >// JOB >CONFIRM BEE-L >// EOJ > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:37:16 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wayne Clifford Subject: Re: Bees in a wall of building Comments: To: James Peterson In-Reply-To: <199604230202.UAA00893@svc.slc.uen.org> James, It is my understanding that with a swarm in a wall like this, you can only count on getting the bees and not the queen. I used a cone shaped screen with a hole in the end only big enough for one bee. Screen is used because the bees will not identify the hole in the end as the entrance. So they will crawl around the outside looking for the way in. Put the larger end of the cone over the entrance and the empty hive just under it. Then, intoduce a new queen into the hive. The bees will gradually accept her as they get more disoriented with their previous hive. It's a crap shoot... Wayne On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, James Peterson wrote: > Help! > > I recieved a "swarm call" today and when I got there the wife > said that a great number of bees disappeared into a crack in the > wall. Sure enough there are bees going in and out of a crack in the brick wall. > I removed a brick and discovered it to be just the entrance to a hive > in the wall some where. > > I have read about mounting a hive on the wall and covering the > entrance of the wall hive with bee escapes. I don"t remember what I > should put in the hive. If I put brood in it, they will build > another queen and there will be another hive there to accept the bees > that come out and can't get back in. Eventually the queen inside > would loose all her subjects and die. > > Has anybody had experience with this procedure? > > Is there a better way of getting the bees out of there? > > Shall I walk away or be a good guy and help these people? > > Thanks for being here to ask! > > James Peterson Ph.D. > > james.peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wayne Clifford | Phone (360) 427-9670 X-581 Technical Administrator | FAX (360) 427-7798 Mason County Department of Health Services | PO Box 1666 Shelton, WA 98584 | USA wrc@inpho.hs.washington.edu | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ""Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think." Benjamin Disraeli ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:04:05 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Deb & Greg Kalicin Organization: HARMONY FARM Subject: Re: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list Michael Hendrick wrote: > > CONFIRM BEE-L > > >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:27 -0400 > >From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" > > > >Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list > >To: "James C. King" > >X-LSV-ListID: BEE-L > > > >Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:27 > > > >Your subscription to the BEE-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to > >remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to > >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at > your earliest > >convenience: > > > > CONFIRM BEE-L > > > > > >You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a > >CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. > > > >PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially > >formatted so that you only need to forward it back to > >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to > have the > >command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding > >function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, > >so make sure to forward and not reply. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >// JOB > >CONFIRM BEE-L > >// EOJ > > > >confirm bee-l ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 23:20:39 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: Iannuzzi Method Endorsed by Scientists? At 06:38 PM 4/23/96 +0000, you wrote: >> 2. Today I placed a paper towel saturated w/vegetable oil (any kind; >> cheaper the better) between the two deep broodchambers. Within a >> week the bees will have removed it. > >I wonder about this. Is this scientifically proven to do anything >related to T-mites? It would logically seem that there would only >be vegetable oil presence in the hive for a short time using this >procedure, unless the oil goes into the wax, or something of that >sort. > >I thought that Sammataro et al indicated that continued presence >over time is the secret to measurable success with grease patties, >at least. Perhaps I misunderstood. > >I would be interested to know if there is any data (measurement >compared to controls) for rational evaluation of this towel >recommendation or if this idea is yet unproven. > >Many of us have been getting along with no treatment for TM, so just >simple colony survival with no controls or measurement of mite >levels is no indication of efficacy. > >The mechanism of TM control using oils and grease is not well >understood (AFAIK), so if this is scientifically proven, then >measured and proven success with this technique would give some >insight into the mechanism, perhaps. > >It would be nice to know that there is a proven alternate method to >putting grease patties on, but is there? > >Regards > >Allen > >W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK >RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 >Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net >Honey. Bees, & Art > FYI Dr. Delaplane has been testine this method of summer control of T mites for about 3 years. He has advised beekeepers in Georga that is a very effective method of when bees cannot be treated with Menthol. Frank Humphrey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 17:43:50 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Iannuzzi Method Endorsed by Scientists? > >> 2. Today I placed a paper towel saturated w/vegetable oil (any > >> kind; cheaper the better) between the two deep broodchambers. > >> Within a week the bees will have removed it. > >The mechanism of TM control using oils and grease is not well > >understood (AFAIK), so if this is scientifically proven, then > >measured and proven success with this technique would give some > >insight into the mechanism, perhaps. > FYI Dr. Delaplane has been testine this method of summer control of > T mites for about 3 years. He has advised beekeepers in Georga that > is a very effective method of when bees cannot be treated with > Menthol. Can you tell me where to get a copy of his paper on this? I'd sure like to examine the proofs, including and the opinions of his peers. I'm delighted that there are simpler and less cumbersome methods than patties. I found patties a real nuisance when manipulating hives, and have trouble bringing myself to use them. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 21:17:19 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dale Guilford Barry, I started with a wax melter made of 3/8 plywood and a double pane glass door. This was about 3foot high and 18 inches square. The design was fine but we never have enough sun in western New york for me to melt any wax. So I converted the same box to a honey heater. I added a platform to hold a 5 Gal. pail or a varity of containers. This is about 4 inches from the bottom of the box. Under the platform I added two light sockets a fan and a thermostat to shutoff at 125 degrees and turn on at 100 degrees.(I saw somewhere that honey should never be heated over 120 degrees) It works fine with a couple of 60 watt bulbs. It takes about 12-18 hours to liquify a 5 gal. pail. I purchased the thermostat from a electrical distributor for under $10. The other parts came from a local hardware store. I don't know how effective the fan is, but it was a small muffin fan I had around the shop. Bigger bulbs would heat faster and if I insulated the box it would be more effecienent. However it works for a hobby bee keeper. Maybe these ideas will help. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 21:52:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Honey Heater >Barry, >I started with a wax melter made of 3/8 plywood and a double pane glass >door. This was about 3foot high and 18 inches square. The design was >fine but we never have enough sun in western New york for me to melt any > wax. So I converted the same box to a honey heater. I added a platform >to hold a 5 Gal. pail or a varity of containers. This is about 4 inches >from the bottom of the box. Under the platform I added two light sockets > a fan and a thermostat to shutoff at 125 degrees and turn on at 100 >degrees.(I saw somewhere that honey should never be heated over 120 >degrees) It works fine with a couple of 60 watt bulbs. It takes about >12-18 hours to liquify a 5 gal. pail. I purchased the thermostat from a >electrical distributor for under $10. The other parts came from a local >hardware store. I don't know how effective the fan is, but it was a >small muffin fan I had around the shop. Bigger bulbs would heat faster >and if I insulated the box it would be more effecienent. However it >works for a hobby bee keeper. Maybe these ideas will help. Hello Dale - Thanks for your information. I appreciate all the input from everyone and it sounds like your setup is closest to what I'm after. It sounds like everybody has a slightly different approach to heaters but all do the job. I start out with all my honey in five gallon buckets but within a short time I get everything into quart jars. But it's good planning to be able to do both. I visited a beekeeper in Michigan last fall and he had a very small bar style refrigerator in which he mounted a single bulb holder on the bottom and just had the one shelf to hold quart jars. I failed to take note of how he wired it up but he said it worked great. I looked up in my Grainger catalog and my HVAC supplier's catalog and I can't seem to find a thermostat that will shut off in a range of 120=BAF. Maybe I'm overlooking something. Could you email me with the specifics on your thermostat? I think the fan idea is a good one as that has been mentioned by others also. Regards -Barry Barry Birkey bbirkey@interaccess.com West Chicago, IL. USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 21:45:45 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Honey Heater > I looked up in my Grainger catalog and my HVAC supplier's catalog > and I can't seem to find a thermostat that will shut off in a range > of 120=BAF. Maybe I'm overlooking something. Could you email me with > the specifics on your thermostat? I think the fan idea is a good one > as that has been mentioned by others also. I think the thermostats on old electric hot water heaters will do just fine if you don't mind adjusting with a screwdriver. Check the dump. Muffin fans are available at computer surplus places. Most fans don't last too well in warm places -- the bearings tend to go dry after a while. A word of warning: Think of the unthinkable, a honey spill in the melter, and make sure the electrics are not on the very bottom so that they are spared any messes. A drain is a good idea, too. Honey has untoward effects on electrical connections, so care should be made to avoid the possibility of honey in a socket or thermostat contact set. Wax is flamable and plastic buckets too close to a bulb will melt. Rough service bulbs will last longer in the warm environment and make more heat vs light. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 06:34:26 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Re: Honey Heater At 19:38 21/04/96 -0500, you wrote: >Hello all - > >Yet another newbie to this group. > >I am in the process of converting a small chest style freezer (2' X 16" X >2' deep) into a heater for honey. I'm needing to know what wattage of bulb >would work best for this type of heater and if one should install a >thermostat on this heater, what kind of thermostat is recommended and what >is a good temperature to maintain inside the heater? > >Any info would be welcome. I'm planning to mount the bulb in the bottom of >the unit and build a metal shelf over it to hold 5 gal. buckets or jars. > >Thanks > >Barry Birkey >West Chicago, Ill. U.S.A. >bbirkey@interaccess.com > I have used a converted chest freezer almost twice the size of yours for more years than I care to remember. It is fitted with two 40 watt tubular greenhouse heaters. These diffuse the heat whereas bulbs are a point source. In my early days of finding out I used bulbs and placed a 10litre bucket too close. Try removing thirty pounds of honey from the bottom of a deep chest. The sort of mistake one only makes once. My 80 watts will take the temperature well beyond the recognised maximum for honey (160F) so a variable thermostat is essential. I have also fitted a visual display thermometer with a probe in the chest so I have a check whenever I pass by. Four 10litre buckets of granulated honey will be fully liquified in 36-48hours. =20 It depends on the insulation quality but I reckon two 25watt bulbs or one 40watt would be adequate for your chest. Fit a thin metal diffuser over the bulbs, or keep the buckets well away and make tests with a thermometer. Fit a variable thermostat for peace of mind and full control. It is possible, with much testing, to end up with heat loss balancing heat output at around 150-160F, the maximum permissible temperature, but hardly worth the saving of a thermostat. =20 Thermostat and thermometer together cost me some =A330 ($45). More expensive now, I suppose, but a small price to pay for perfect control from warming to liquifying honey and melting wax. All the information you need for honey treatment of all kinds will be found in Dadant's Hive and the Honey Bee, a book which should be on every beekeeper's bookshelf. Sid P. =20 _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com=20 Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 06:43:00 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:26 -0400 >From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" >Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >To: Sid Pullinger >X-LSV-ListID: BEE-L > >Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:26 > >Your subscription to the BEE-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to >remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at your earliest >convenience: > > CONFIRM BEE-L > > >You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a >CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. > >PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially >formatted so that you only need to forward it back to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to have the >command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding >function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, >so make sure to forward and not reply. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >// JOB >CONFIRM BEE-L >// EOJ > > _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 08:43:15 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James Cassidy Subject: Re: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list In-Reply-To: <199604240543.GAA29952@beta.aladdin.co.uk> Please, people, take note the the Renew your subscription to the BEE-L list, while giving the advantage of doing it nearly automatically, asks that the Forwarding function be used, and not the Reply function. Use of the Reply function is probably what is responsible for the cluttering of our mailboxes with messages about Renewing subscriptions, as people are replying to everyone, instead of just the listserv. James Cassidy History Department Saint Anselm College jcassidy@hawk.anselm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob W Maccione Subject: hive color and placement Hi all, Please bear with me on this one... This is my first year in beekeeping and I have the following two questions. (for the record I am taking a local Ag Bee Keeping course before the bees get here but would like to get the hive ready ahead of time). 1: I would like to put the hive in an area with some pine trees. This area doesn't get a whole lot of sun and I'm planning on putting a wind break on the north side. Is it a better idea to put the hive in a sunnier area? 2: Color: I'm leaning on a light shade of green to make the hive less obvious. My SO wants to paint the hive light yellow but if we go with white or light green she then wants to paint something on the side (what I have _no_ idea). Does anyone see problems in this area? thanks much for any answers, bob maccione Green Acres Orchards (someday) Eads, TN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 07:42:16 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: hive color and placement > 1: I would like to put the hive in an area with some pine trees. > This area doesn't get a whole lot of sun and I'm planning on putting > a wind break on the north side. Is it a better idea to put the hive > in a sunnier area? Full sun gives better buildup and friendlier bees. Windbreak is always a good idea. If you are in Tennessee, then you might find that in really hot weather some artificial shade might be beneficial -- like from a part sheet of plywood on the top over four bricks with more on top to keep it there, or perhaps some upward ventillation. Talk to your neighbouring beekeepers (Join your local bee group). But usually a standard beehive without tinkering is just fine. > 2: Color: I'm leaning on a light shade of green to make the hive > less > obvious. My SO wants to paint the hive light yellow but if we go > with white or light green she then wants to paint something on the > side (what I have _no_ idea). Does anyone see problems in this > area? The bees don't care. Darker colours result in warmer boxes. Good in the spring, but not necessary in the summer. Have fun. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 15:00:24 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: subscription confirmation strangeness At 03:06 PM 4/23/96 EDT, you wrote:> > as you may have noticed, our bee-l list is going through a few >changes. First off, the listserv will be asking each of you to >"confirm" your subscriptions. Anyone who doesn't send back the >confirmation will be unsubscribed from the list. > I have tried several times to CONFIRM BEE-L but so far have met with no success. Where do I go from here? Eric Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:43:09 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Confirming BEE-L subscriptions There appears to be much confusion regarding confirmation of BEE-L subscriptions. The proper method to confirm is to send mail to LISTSERV (not BEE-L). Send mail to: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu with no subject header and only one line in the body of the mail which reads: CONFIRM BEE-L If that doesn't work you can always wait for LISTSERV to drop you from BEE-L and then you can resubscribe, although that should not be necessary. Sincerely, Aaron Morris IBM System Manager University at Albany (Host to BEE-L) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Bees in a wall of buildi REGARDING RE>Bees in a wall of building James Peterson writes: "I recieved a "swarm call" today and when I got there the wife said that a great number of bees disappeared into a crack in the wall. Sure enough there are bees going in and out of a crack in the brick wall. I removed a brick and discovered it to be just the entrance to a hive in the wall some where. I have read about mounting a hive on the wall and covering the entrance of the wall hive with bee escapes. I don"t remember what I should put in the hive. If I put brood in it, they will build another queen and there will be another hive there to accept the bees that come out and can't get back in. Eventually the queen inside would loose all her subjects and die. Has anybody had experience with this procedure? Is there a better way of getting the bees out of there? Shall I walk away or be a good guy and help these people?" This is a very difficult thing to accomplish successfully. Yes, you could get a lot of bees into the bait hive, but youi can never get rid of the original colony this way. I have seen such an operation, where the entire siding of one wall of a house was removed, and the colony covered most of the wall. I saw that this was a job for a professional - one who was both a builder and a beekeeper. I tried once to do it - and found that the mess was unbelievable. I now usually recommend to inquirers that they contact professional pest control people. Actually, now in these days of mites, one could perhaps counsel just leaving it alone - the colony will eventually die anyhow, and then the entrance can be remortared. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:42:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: hive color and placement REGARDING RE>hive color and placement Bob Maccione writes: "1: I would like to put the hive in an area with some pine trees. This area doesn't get a whole lot of sun and I'm planning on putting a wind break on the north side. Is it a better idea to put the hive in a sunnier area?" I have had hives in both sunny and shaded locations, and I feel that the bees need shade, especially if it gets hot in the sun in your area. All of my hives are now in groves of trees (one is in the middle of a woodlot), and they all do very well. I have had nasty bees in full sun as well as in the trees, and I have had gentle bees in both places. When it gets hot, the bees in the sun hang out on the hive fronts and wait for cooler weather, while the ones in the shade just keep on working. Think about it a second - where will bees go when they swarm? Usually to a hollow tree in a shaded location. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:14:54 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: requeening In-Reply-To: <199604220046.RAA21240@m2.sprynet.com> On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Frank Humphrey wrote: > You will have to find the old queen and kill her or else the > workers will kill the new queen. Vitaly important fact. Never forget it. I would change that first 'kill' to 'remove' though. You should get used to finding queens, it's a very useful skill for a beekeeper. If you can't find her but she's there somewhere, you could split the colony into two hives and check for a queen later. Generally, the queenless hive will be very excited within the hour. Of course, you probably _still_ have to find that old queen sometime, but at least you have a smaller box to search through and you could keep the old queen for a while in case the new one gets rejected. Unite the colonies later (one queen, of course). Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:52:14 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: hive color and placement At 01:19 PM 4/24/96 +0000, you wrote: >Hi all, > > Please bear with me on this one... > > This is my first year in beekeeping and I have the following two >questions. (for the record I am taking a local Ag Bee Keeping course >before the bees get here but would like to get the hive ready ahead >of time). > > 1: I would like to put the hive in an area with some pine trees. >This area doesn't get a whole lot of sun and I'm planning on putting a wind >break on the north side. Is it a better idea to put the hive in a sunnier >area? > > 2: Color: I'm leaning on a light shade of green to make the hive less >obvious. My SO wants to paint the hive light yellow but if we go with >white or light green she then wants to paint something on the side (what >I have _no_ idea). Does anyone see problems in this area? > > >thanks much for any answers, >bob maccione >Green Acres Orchards (someday) >Eads, TN > Hi Bob My Dad kept bees in a pine thicket for years and they did very well there. A wind break might help but I don't think it is necessary. I've kept bees in southeast Tennesee and northwest Georga. About all I do is face them southeast and try to set them up to get the mornong sun. You can help the bees in summer if you place them so as to have shade form about mid morning on. As to color, any color will do. I've got bees in hives of several different colors and it dosen' seem to make any difference. Frank Humphery ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:54:52 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Bees in a wall of building In-Reply-To: <199604230202.UAA00893@svc.slc.uen.org> On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, James Peterson wrote: > I recieved a "swarm call" today and when I got there the wife > said that a great number of bees disappeared into a crack in > the wall. Sure enough there are bees going in and out of a > crack in the brick wall. I removed a brick and discovered it > to be just the entrance to a hive in the wall some where. If they've _just_ gone in (new swarm today), then you may be able to drive them out with lots of smoke, then capture them when they settle again. They should regroup nearby. > I have read about mounting a hive on the wall and covering the > entrance of the wall hive with bee escapes..... > Has anybody had experience with this procedure? I tried it just the once (20 foot up), but without success. I couldn't get the escapes attached to the wall in any way that stopped the bees finding a way past them. Screwing a clearer board type structure to it might work. I was unable to do that as the bees were going in & out via a pipe outlet. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:11:19 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: hive color and placement In-Reply-To: <199604241319.AA17007@world.std.com> On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Bob W Maccione wrote: > 2: Color: I'm leaning on a light shade of green to make the > hive less obvious. My SO wants to paint the hive light yellow > but if we go with white or light green she then wants to paint > something on the side (what I have _no_ idea). Does anyone > see problems in this area? You could even use 'random' splashes or blocks of colours and camoflage them. Even quite bright colours can work if the outline of the box is disguised. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:02:19 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Solar Wax Extractor In-Reply-To: <01I3W8O4YH76A23PJO@INCPRD.ICHANGE.COM> On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Dale Guilford wrote: > I started with a wax melter made of 3/8 plywood and a double pane > glass door. This was about 3foot high and 18 inches square. The > design was fine but we never have enough sun in western New > york for me to melt any wax. I think that it isn't the lack of sun that stopped it working, it's the lack of insulation. You really do need something more than 3/8 ply to keep the heat in. A well constructed Solar here will work fine on sunny days during our winter, with temperatures around freezing. Make sure it's draft-proof, too. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:00:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: M Burns Organization: M Burns, connected through ABACOM INTERNET. Subject: Reading list I am a beginner beekeeper and I would appreciate any recommendations on what books to read on beekeeping to further my knowledge. I already have Richard Bonney's Beekeeping - A Practical Guide but would like to read something more advanced. Thank you Michael Burns Sawyerville, Quebec ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Jillette Subject: Re: Reading list At 08:00 PM 4/24/96 -0500, you wrote: >I am a beginner beekeeper and I would appreciate any recommendations on >what books to read on beekeeping to further my knowledge. I already >have Richard Bonney's Beekeeping - A Practical Guide but would like to >read something more advanced. > >Thank you > >Michael Burns >Sawyerville, Quebec > > Get the book called "The Hive and the Honey Bee", a Dadant publication. A great reference book! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:35:12 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: authorized/approved use Comments: To: andy.nachbaur@beenet.com Andy: I sent this message to the list and they are serious questions, even though they may not sound like it. I am now re-sending this post to you in hope of getting some serious answers. Hello All: After watching this Vmite thread I have some questions (this may be because I am new to the list) about treatment of bees. First what are authorized or approved products for treating bees in the U.S.? Secondly how does one define treatment? Is it changed by whether the honey is being harvested for human consumption? The reason I ask these questions is because of a thought progression I had a few days ago. For example if I open a hive and shake table salt on the bees, am I by definition treating them with an unapproved chemical? If I put vitamin E (approved for human consumption) in the syrup one feeds to bees are the bees being treated with an unapproved product? For those of you out there who know I would like to know how you see it. Thank You Jeffrey R. Tooker Thank you again JRT 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 22:16:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John McGhee Subject: . COMFIRM BEE-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:32:58 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nik Mohamed Abdulmajid Subject: Re: subscription confirmation strangeness In-Reply-To: <199604241500.PAA21629@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca> On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Eric Abell wrote: > At 03:06 PM 4/23/96 EDT, you wrote:> > > as you may have noticed, our bee-l list is going through a few > >changes. First off, the listserv will be asking each of you to > >"confirm" your subscriptions. Anyone who doesn't send back the > >confirmation will be unsubscribed from the list. > > > > > I have tried several times to CONFIRM BEE-L but so far have met with no > success. Where do I go from here? > > > Eric > > Eric Abell > Gibbons, Alberta Canada > (403) 998 3143 > eabell@compusmart.ab.ca > Dear Eric, (AND OTHERS WHO MIGHT BE MESSING UP THE MAIL BOX WITH THE CONFIRMATION MESSAGES). You may try this: open the original message, hit the forward key and address your forward message to listserv@cnsibm.albany.edu, NOT the bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu. Good luck. Nik Mohamed. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:53:10 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin Humphrey Sr." Subject: Grease for V-mites Comments: To: Bee-L@CSNIBM.ALBANY.EDU Ok I'm going to go through this one time and I'm not going to furnish any papers to prove that I'm not lying. It is thought that during the removal of the vegetable oil from the hive creates greasy bees. This in turn hinder the migration of the mature V-mites from the older bees to the younger bees. The patties can be in the form of Crisco or other solid vegetable oils placed directly on a paper towel or can be patties without the terrimycen. Some people say that the paper towel method is better and others like the patty method. Personally I make my patties only about half a pound is size and put them between waxed paper. When I put them in the hive, I tear holes in the paper so that the bees can get at it. The waxed paper keeps it together so that the patty can be moved out of the way to manipulate the hive. As far as I know there are no official papers written about this method. It is something that is being tried by numerous beekeers in Georgia and Tennessee and seems to be an effective method of slowing the spread of V-mites during production periods when the bees cannot be medicated. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:01:22 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Bees in a wall of building >> Has anybody had experience with this procedure? Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk wrote > >I tried it just the once (20 foot up), but without success. I >couldn't get the escapes attached to the wall in any way that >stopped the bees finding a way past them. Screwing a clearer >board type structure to it might work. I was unable to do that >as the bees were going in & out via a pipe outlet. The only experience I had with removing bees from a building turned into a nightmare. Finally I took a WBC cone escape, taped it to a piece of plywood. That allowed the bees out, but with the tiny entrance they couldn't find their way back. Mind you, we didn't get the queen, or the remains of the combs. You would have to wait for all the brood to emerge, otherwise the smell of rotting brood is disgusting, I for one will never do it again!!!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:32:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: E-mail virus warning!!!!! Guys, Our Corporate office just sent out a warning that a computer virus is being sent through the e-mail system. The US Federal Communications Comm. has issured a warning about this virus. The virus is spread automatically to people on an e-mail list on an infected computer. It is always sent the same way. The e-mail will have a title of Good Times. WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO NOT READ ANY E-MAIL WITH THE TITLE " GOOD TIMES". If you read the e-mail the virus will infect your computer. Our administrator has recommended that we just delete the e-mail when it arrives. The virus will trash your hard drive and can distroy your CPU. The virus only infects if you read the e-mail not by just receiving it. Some warped user of AOL created this virus according to the FCC. Good Luck!!! Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:53:30 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Grease for V-mites > Ok I'm going to go through this one time and I'm not going to > furnish any papers to prove that I'm not lying. Well, I don't know why anyone would think you were lying. I don't. appreciate your taking the time to explain what you know and what you have heard for our benefit. A lot of beekeepers do things under mistaken assumptions or from misunderstanding research results or directions, and I think it's reasonable to ask for evidence before believing what is one is told -- especially if new information does not agree with what one has heard before. This is a particularly intriguing matter that affects many thousands of dollars in cost -- either of treatment -- or losses if it doesn't work, so please excuse any scepticism. Non-sceptical beekeepers tend to lose their bees sooner or later. Since the orginal discussion started, I have received some private email from several researchers indicating that they believe these techniques merit some investigation. One says that the trial he did resulted in no significant benefit compared to controls, but he soaked cardboard in salad oil, not towels. (Maybe it's the towel that does the trick, not the oil) And the trial was in July -- not the best time. What you write below is interesting because I was sure that the original post was talking about *liquid* oils, not grease. There is some speculation about the mechanisms that are involved with the grease treatments and I am familiar with many, if not all. However, I do not believe that anyone has *proven* how it works -- only that it does, and that the effects seem independant of the brand or source of vegetable oil. One particularly interesting theory is that the breakdown of oil (rancidity) produces a chemical much like a pheremone that the mite uses to detect young bees. Of course a wag might just say that the grease just makes it harder to climb into a trachea :) > It is thought that during the removal of the vegetable oil from the > hive creates greasy bees. This in turn hinder the migration of the > mature V-mites from the older bees to the younger bees. The patties > can be in the form of Crisco or other solid vegetable oils placed > directly on a paper towel or can be patties without the terrimycen. > Some people say that the paper towel method is better and others > like the patty method. Personally I make my patties only about half > a pound is size and put them between waxed paper. Now what is not clear here is whether you mix sugar into the patties or just slice off some Crisco. I've wondered why that wouldn't work, but have not heard of it being done, and tested against controls. I've wondered about spraying the bees lightly with salad oil, and I've heard of oil fogging, and other things too. BUT no matter how nifty these ideas are, I, for one, need someone to try them against controls to decide I should rely on them. > As far as I know there are no official papers written about this > method. It is something that is being tried by numerous beekeers in > Georgia and Tennessee and seems to be an effective method of slowing > the spread of V-mites during production periods when the bees cannot > be medicated. I wonder about the word 'seems'. A lack of scientific measurements is unfortunate. Perhaps that will be remedied soon. Hard facts save cold cash. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:21:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ken Umbach (kumbach@library.ca.gov)" Subject: Re: E-mail virus warning hoax In-Reply-To: <199604251533.AA10349@interlock.halnet.com> Oh for Pete's sake is this "good times" hoax STILL going around???? Pay attention folks: this is a fraud! The only "virus" involved in it is the continuing replication of these phony "good times" warnings. > The virus is spread automatically to people on an e-mail list on an infected > computer. It is always sent the same way. The e-mail will have a title of > Good Times. WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO NOT READ ANY E-MAIL WITH THE TITLE " GOOD > TIMES". If you read the e-mail the virus will infect your computer. Our This piece of cr*p has been debunked time and again (including on this list!) for more than a year now! And yet gullible but well-meaning folks are falling for it. Ciao, Ken Umbach ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:34:12 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin Humphrey Sr." As anyone can see I've made a boo-boo here. I was referring to Trachea mites rather then Varroa to be treated with vegetable oil. Sorry about that. Next: That post got exactly the reaction I expected. Must all new ideas be stamped out without even a trial? I've been keeping bees off and on since the late 40's and have yet to learn everything there is to know on the subject. Now I don's ask that anyone use the same treatments that I use. But I have learned one thing for sure. You can't learn anything new if you aren't willing to try something new. Anyone who tries some new medication or treatment on their entire stock of bees would be a fool. Quite frankly some of the new beekeepers have been coming up with some very good ideas and quite honestly I'm happy to say that I've benefited from them. But I didn't rush out and try these things on every hive. I tried them on one hive and then if it showed promise, I tried it on an entire beeyard. Too suggest that anyone would want anyone to try something new on all their hives and risk their entire livelihood is quite ludicrous. Finally I've had my share of private email too and we all know how that goes. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Gentile Subject: Re: E-mail virus warning!!!!! At 10:32 AM 4/25/96 -0500, you wrote: >Guys, > >Our Corporate office just sent out a warning that a computer virus is being >sent through the e-mail system. The US Federal Communications Comm. has >issured a warning about this virus. > >The virus is spread automatically to people on an e-mail list on an infected >computer. It is always sent the same way. The e-mail will have a title of >Good Times. WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO NOT READ ANY E-MAIL WITH THE TITLE " GOOD >TIMES". If you read the e-mail the virus will infect your computer. Our >administrator has recommended that we just delete the e-mail when it >arrives. The virus will trash your hard drive and can distroy your CPU. > >The virus only infects if you read the e-mail not by just receiving it. > >Some warped user of AOL created this virus according to the FCC. > >Good Luck!!! > > >Richard Barnes >rbarnes@halnet.com > No computer virus can be transmitted through text files, only through executable files. Yuo should never down load any unknow files ending in .exe, .bat or .com. Reading email is harmless. Pete ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:59:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Ooops. A typo! > > Ok I'm going to go through this one time and I'm not going to > > furnish any papers to prove that I'm not lying. > > Well, I don't know why anyone would think you were lying. I don't. > appreciate your taking the time to explain what you know and what > you have heard for our benefit. There should have been a 'I' before the word 'appreciate'. It must have gotten lost in editing. If one doesn't notice the period after 'don't', one might mistake the meaning of the post. In fact it might seem to say exactly the opposite of what I meant. I apologise if anyone misunderstood. What I was saying was that I *do* appreciate Frank's taking the time to explain techniques that are not yet mainstream. Many of us do not have the time, training, resources, or nature to do experiments ourselves, or to assess the meaning of the results. The details of what beekeepers may try are very interesting, even if the results are not yet substantiated by our researchers. There doesn't seem to be any serious question of the legality of placing vegetable oil in beehives, so I can't think why anyone would object to discussing this in detail. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Cote Subject: Re: Bees in a wall of building I live in a very congested area, 3 blocks from the DC line, so I try to keep my 6 hives low profile and non-disruptive. I was therefore quite aghast last year to see honeybees streaming in and out of the wall of my new neighbor who is rennovating a rumble-down house. Of course, one couldn't *prove* they came from one of my hives, but we know better. Anyway, my neighbor wanted to poision them, and I knew it wouldn't work and it didn't. What did work, bane of our beekeeping existance, was varrolla mites. Naturally, I didn't treat that hive, and this year they are nowhere to be seen. The enterance is closed now. The vmites have won the day. Tim Cote ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:37:14 AST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom_Elliott@jhqnov.dot.state.ak.us Subject: Removing bees from a wall My brother, a non-beekeeper, tells me a story of an Australian beekeeper faced with an established hive inside an overstuffed chair sitting on an outdoor porch. Not wishing to destroy the chair, either to remove bees or by leaving honey to ooze out and create a problem, he used a method I have never heard of anywhere else. A "No Pest Strip" was placed some distance from the colony entrance (I do not know what the distance was, but far enough away to avoid a direct kill). After a few (How many?) days the bees simply left (absconded). The honey was later robged out and the chair recovered. (Hopefully the entrance was eliminated.) I do not have any further information on this method. I have never tried it and probably wouldn't without an appropriate set of dire circumstances. Anyone care to admit knowledge of such a method? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 17:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Re: Solar Wax Extractor Does anyone have a source of plans for building one? I have an old set from Illinois, are there any others? Diana Sammataro Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 NEW Phone: (330) 263 3912 Fax: (330) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:11:38 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "M.Westby (Max Westby)" Subject: Honey Heating Dear All Re: the honey warming discussion thread. I've used an aquarium thermostat with 60W light bulb in old fridge with great success. These thermostats are cheap, honey proof, and cover just the right temperature range. Cheers, Max (\ ---------------------------------------------{|||8------------- Max Westby (/ (Among other things a Sheffield Beekeeper) South Yorkshire Beekeepers Association BBKA apiary reg: JQ34 Phone (Home): +44 (0)114 236 1038 Phone (Work): +44 (0)114 282 6549 (direct) Fax: +44 (0)114 276 6515 e-mail: m.westby@sheffield.ac.uk World Wide Web Site: http://www.shef.ac.uk/psychology/westby/ --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:05:37 CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Nabors Subject: Re: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list confirm Bee-L ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at internet-ext Date: 4/24/96 12:45 AM >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:26 -0400 >From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" >Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >To: Sid Pullinger >X-LSV-ListID: BEE-L > >Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:26 > >Your subscription to the BEE-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to >remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at your earliest >convenience: > > CONFIRM BEE-L > > >You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a >CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. > >PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially >formatted so that you only need to forward it back to >LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to have the >command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding >function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, >so make sure to forward and not reply. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >// JOB >CONFIRM BEE-L >// EOJ > > _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Verville Subject: Temperature/Queen Acceptance Comments: To: att!BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU Wonder if there has ever been a study to see if queen acceptance and ambient temperature are some how related. Dave Verville ECBA Vp Topsfield MA mvdfv@mvcss.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:36:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: hive color and placement Try to make sure the bees get morning sun, if you can. In the summer, both bees and beekeeper benefit from afternoon shade (in my experience). It would be better if the trees were deciduous, because then you would have a sunny spot in the winter and a shady spot in the summer. Oh, well, you can't have everything. If you can, trim away branches (or trees) directly to the south of the hives, so that the winter sun can get to them as much as possible. Leave the trees to the west; they'll provide shade for those long summer afternoons. Windbreaks are real nice, particularly if you live in a windy spot (last summer, my husband left the 1-ton in neutral after he parked it....the wind was strong enough to start it rolling across the barn yard--windbreaks are real useful here.) It doesn't matter what color you paint your hives. Light colors are probably easier for the bees to keep cool in summer. Some people paint each of their hives differently; they claim that the bees can use the different color tones and shapes to identify their hives better. They say it cuts down on drift. Have fun! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:36:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: requeening Back before we started using single-story brood chambers, we sometimes had trouble finding the queen. We would slip a queen excluder between each of the boxes the queen might be in, then come back 4-5 days later. The box with the eggs in it had the queen, and we could focus our search on the one box, instead of looking through 2 or 3. There is a technique that I have never used--I will try to get this right....basically, you shake all the bees out of the existing hive, through a queen excluder, and into a new box. The queen (and drones) theoretically gets prevented from entering the new hive by the queen excluder. Take a queen excluder and an empty deep super. Spray some non-stick cooking spray on the side of the empty super (this keeps bees from being able to walk up it). Put the queen excluder over a hive body with some frames in it. Put the empty super on top of the queen excluder. Open up the hive you want to requeen, and shake ALL the bees off of each comb into the empty super. If you smoke them gently, that will encourage them to go through the excluder into the new hive body. Take the boxes from the existing hive, and carry them away from the site. Shake all the bees off the boxes onto the ground. Carry the empty super and queen excluder away from the hive site. Put the hive back together at the original site. The hive is now queenless--if you have been careful to make sure that all bees in the box were forced through the excluder. (I hope I got this description right.) This technique sounded incredibly messy and time-consuming when I heard it. It's easier to simply find the queen. However, it does mean that you can requeen a colony whose queen you cannot find. The more you look for queens, the easier it will get--practice every time you open the hive, and sooner or later you'll be able to spot a queen in moments. (My husband's sure-fire technique when he's having trouble, is to say a little prayer... it's amazing how much easier queens are to spot when you ask God to point them out to you!) Good luck. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:28:43 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Cheap and dirty solar wax melter Believe it or not, this contraption works (at least in a MD summer). You will need: An old picnic cooler w/o the lid A piece of Plexiglass big enough to cover the cooler A black plastic trash bag An embroidery hoop large enough to be held up by friction in the cooler Nylon bridal veil cloth (enough to put in the embroidery hoop) Two bricks A clean aluminum pan that once held a frozen dinner Line the old picnic cooler with the trash bag, and then put in the aluminum pan. Put your bridal veil cloth in the embroidery hoop, then wedge the hoop and cloth in the cooler. Put your cappings on the cloth, then put the whole thing out in the sun before noon. Put on the Plexiglass, and weight it in place with the bricks. The melted wax will solidify by dusk; remove it then. This melter will do about 1 1/2 pounds of cappings a day. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:09:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robin Wells Subject: Re: E-mail virus warning!!!!! Peter Gentile wrote: > No computer virus can be transmitted through text files, only through executable > files. Yuo should never down load any unknow files ending in .exe, .bat or > .com. > Reading email is harmless. Hi Pete, You are correct in stating that reading email is harmless, and that virus' can not be transmitted via a text file. However, they can be transmitted via other seemingless harmless files such as imbedding macros in a WORD document or in an EXCEL spreadsheet. This has been tried already in a WORD document that I am aware of, and actually have a copy of. It can also be transmitted via some Web browsers!! Although the holes here are being closed fortunately. If the item you are viewing is a applett, it is actually code that is being executed on your machine. Appletts by their very nature are powerful, this power however also makes them potentially dangerous. Many browsers are tightening up the holes here as to what access is allowed to the system by browsers and activities run within the browsers. So until next time our life becomes somewhat safer! -- ######################### rawells@jenera.com http://www.jenera.com ######################### ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:40:18 -0400 Reply-To: Mason Harris Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Subject: What a mess! Hi Bee Folks, Well, I did what I thought I probably should not have done and now I am paying for it. A few weeks ago I made my first two splits. I put one split in a 5 frame nuc and the other into a deep. I thought it was time to move the nuc to it's new location this morning so I moved it about 15' away on the other side of 5 other hives I have. Well guess what. That's right, the bees from the nuc are absloutly lost and confused. They are flying all over and not finding the new nuc location. It appears they are trying to enter the hive (deep split) closest to the old location of the nuc. I have an entrance reducer on the deep split and there is a wild crowd at the frond door. For some reason I thought they would have no trouble finding the new location as it is only 15' away. WRONG! In the back of my mind I thought I may have some trouble, but I thought, What the hell......give it a try. So what happens now? What should I do? Should I just relax and loose the bees who can't find the new location? Should I wait for the new bees hatch out and and get used to where they are? I put the nuc on top of a medium super with the thought they would get used to the new nuc placement and then I was going to move them into a 10 frame deep where the medium super is. Can anyone tell me what I can expect to happen now? Live and learn, die and forget it........... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:46:12 PDT Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Apology Sorry about the double mailing folks! Sometimes I think this PC needs a pesticde! Glyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:58:21 PDT Reply-To: Glyn Davies Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: Fluvalinate resistance John Caldeira in Dallas wrote: (23 April 1996) ---------------Original Message--------------- I'm no expert in pesticide resistance, but David M. Noetzel, Extension Entomologist Emeritus from University of Minnesota, suggests in American Bee Journal (December 1995, page 791) that HIGH doses of fluvalinate would lead to faster resistance than lower doses. The thinking behind this is that killing 99% of the mites provides more selection for resistance than, say, a mite treatment that only kills off 80%. Sure wish we could kill 100% & be done with them! Cheers, John in Dallas Thanks for your response John. I have not read the ABJ aricle by David Noetzel. I'm searching for a UK copy. Meanwhile can anyone summarise further his evidence/reasoning? It does alarm me because the widely accepted principle is that weak, underdosing of medicaments leads to pesticide resistance. If we now have a contrary principle then there could be very severe problems developing. For instance, I believe if many beekeepers underdose their fluvalinate treatment for fear of giving too high a dose then there will be rapid development of resistant strains of V.mite. The appearance of the fluvalinate (and flumethrin) resistant strains in Italy was a result of UNDERDOSING. To save expense, strips were even cut in half; often only one strip per hive was used. Home made strips were (and still are!) made from diluted fluvalinate sheep dip solutions used by sheep farmers to combat sheep scab! To be fair it is not unknown in UK. The reason that Apistan and Bayvarol strips, only have a 98-99% knock down is not just that the odd 1-2% are immune. These pesticides are CONTACT poisons. There is always a random chance that some mites will not get sufficient "contact" with the chemical to kill them. All we can do so far is control the mite population so that it does not interfere unduly with the bee colony development. (Secondary virus infections excepted). Some of the surviving mites may be immune of course, but that can be dealt with by changing the treatment every two years or so. This is also why most responsible national Agriculture Departments only licence one or two treatments. These can be changed later and so keep developing resistance under control. Happy beekeeping, Glyn Davies Ashburton, Devon. UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:03:46 EDT Reply-To: "Glen B. Glater" Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Glen B. Glater" Subject: Today's swarm I had a swarm land on my back porch today, about 7 feet away from my swarm trap which they seemed to be ignoring. But that's not the point of this email. The swarm was about 25 feet in front of my 2 hives. How (if it is possible at all) can I tell if these bees are (used to be) mine? By the way, the swarm was at eye level if I stood in my yard, and the bees were very docile, and I stood 2 feet away from them and watched. Wow! They were waggle dancing all over the place (so to speak) and I saw things that I've never seen except on TV. They started going into my swarm trap after I moved it right next to them and put in some frames. If they don't all move in by tonight, I'm going to net them and dump them in... Thanks for the help with the question above. --glen ************************************************************** Midnight Networks Inc. * 200 Fifth Avenue * Waltham, MA 02154 Glen B. Glater Principal, Strategic Networking Group Phone: (617) 890-1001 Fax: (617) 890-0028 Internet: glen@midnight.com http://www.midnight.com/~glen Midnight Networks Inc. WWW page http://www.midnight.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:42:17 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin Humphrey Sr." Subject: 2 Queen Hive Hi All I read the post the other day about the 2 queen hive setup for build up and decided to try it for a different purpose. I thought if this works it might be an easy way to requeen without losing egg laying time. I have a colony that has not built up properly and had some chalk brood problems. The colony had gotten up to 3 frames of brood but did not gain any ground for over three weeks. I took 1 frame of emerging brood and moved it above a double screen and a super with some old brood combs and left them an opening of about 1" by 3/8". I waited about 8 hours and introduced a new queen with a hole punched through the candy. I checked the top hive body 3 days later and found that the new queen had been accepted and was laying. Now here is where I got into trouble. I understood that the double screen should be replaced with a queen excluder after the new queen had been accepted. I allowed the queen to lay for 2 more days before doing this. It was almost disaster. There was a real bee killing going on when I looked at the hive a few hours later. My solution was to place newspaper between on top of the queen excluder just like combining 2 swarms. That was 2 days ago and when I checked today they had cut through the paper and appeared to coexist quite happily. The outcome is still in question but if anyone has tried something like this before and can tell me of further pitfall I need to watch for , I would appreciate it. The new queen has 3 frames of eggs already. This seems a bit much considering the number of nurse bees she has to work with. Maybe the rising heat from below makes this possible. What I plan to do is allow both queens to lay until they have 8 frames of brood and then remove the old queen and the queen excluder. I have a colony that has a 3 year old queen that I would like to move to a Nuc and use her for a breeder. I had thought to do this after the honey flow but she is slowing down and I want to replace her without losing egg laying time. If this works for the weak colony I am going to try it this strong healthy colony. I would welcome comments and suggestions. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:18:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list > confirm Bee-L > > >______________________________ Reply Separator >_________________________________ >Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at internet-ext >Date: 4/24/96 12:45 AM > > >>Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:26 -0400 >>From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" > >>Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the BEE-L list >>To: Sid Pullinger >>X-LSV-ListID: BEE-L >> >>Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:02:26 >> >>Your subscription to the BEE-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to >>remain subscribed to BEE-L, please issue the following command to >>LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) at your earliest >>convenience: >> >> CONFIRM BEE-L >> >> >>You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a >>CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. >> >>PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially >>formatted so that you only need to forward it back to >>LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (or LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.BITNET) to have the >>command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding >>function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, >>so make sure to forward and not reply. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>// JOB >>CONFIRM BEE-L >>// EOJ >> >> >_________________________________________________________________ >Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk >36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com >Alresford >Hants SO24 9HF >England Hello all - I certianly want to give the space needed when mistakes are made which we all do but I just want to reiterate that everyone pays close attention to where they are replying to when they confirm their subscription. LISTSERV not BEE-L. Thanks. Barry P.S. Sid, I'm not picking on you, just using your mail as an example :~) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:48:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Re: No Subject Frank: I passed along your grease pattie suggestion to a local BeeKeepers meeting just last night. One old timer has been doing the same thing and I think he seemed to be glad to hear of someone else doing it. I think that your approach to try something new on a hive or two to see how it works out, makes sense to me. I find it difficult to understand why anyone would trash or poo-poo someone's idea, especially with the high losses going around. I was told last night that Massachusetts losses are running 75% and Maine is running 90%! I was asked to do a talk on "Bees In Cyberspace". Naturally I touted Bee-L highly. I passed out a sheet on signing up for a Bee-L and included a couple of sample messages-yours on grease patties was one of them. Al Needham "Hobbyist" Scituate, MA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:17:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Re: Cheap and dirty solar wax melter Thanks Bill, I'll try it. Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 NEW Phone: (330) 263 3912 Fax: (330) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:13:00 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Lipari Subject: Honey extractor I like build a honey extractor. Can you help me about this one send me some information? Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 07:21:40 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "W. H. Phillips" Subject: Libel On The Internet On April 14, 1996 Hans Popodi inadvertently posted (over my signature) to the entire readership of BEE-L two replies intended for individuals. The replies concerned Popodi's Varroa Treatment Device (TM) and contained the text of his introductory product brochure. He has made this mistake more than once and, henceforth, will no longer attempt to operate his email without skilled assistance. He joins me in apologizing for those accidental posts, which were inappropriate and even intrusive. They were NOT, however, "misleading advertising" as Allen Dick alleged in his so-called "flame" of rebuttal. The Criminal Code of Canada says it's an offense to threaten prosecution unless you can prove there are grounds for doing so. The Common Law says anyone who makes defamatory statements via a public medium such as the BEE-L Letter, and causes damage by so doing, can be sued for all his wealth and worldly goods. I'm not saying Popodi will sue Allen Dick for his dematory statements. I'm only saying Canadian law gives them the right to. As far as the VTD is concerned ... many of us believe it's better than Apistan (and Apistan is very good indeed). Certainly it's less expensive. So we welcome enquiries, but Popodi has no wish to SPAM readers of BEE-L. Apologies for the misposts and a friendly rapsberry to Allen Dick who is, as ever, his own worst accuser. "Res ipsa loquitur." Bill ***************************************************************** * W. H. (Bill) Phillips (604) 496-5273 * * Jericho Industries Corp. email: wphillip@mail.awinc.com * * Site 11 Box C Comp 9 RR1 * * Naramata, B.C. V0H 1N0 * ***************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:38:00 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: What a mess! In-Reply-To: On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Mason Harris wrote: > Well, I did what I thought I probably should not have done > and now I am paying for it. A few weeks ago I made my first > two splits. I put one split in a 5 frame nuc and the other > into a deep. I thought it was time to move the nuc to it's > new location this morning so I moved it about 15' away on the > other side of 5 other hives I have. Well guess what. That's > right, the bees from the nuc are absloutly lost and confused. > They are flying all over and not finding the new nuc location. > It appears they are trying to enter the hive (deep split) closest > to the old location of the nuc. I have an entrance reducer on > the deep split and there is a wild crowd at the frond door. > For some reason I thought they would have no trouble finding > the new location as it is only 15' away. WRONG! Oops. Yup. Don't worry though. The standard rule is less than three feet or more than two miles. Well, the figures vary a bit, but the ballpark's ok. If you only want to move them the 15' and have nowhere else to take them for the few weeks it takes them to forget their old home, you will probably get away with it provided there are plenty of brood and decent food stores in the nuc. It'll slow the nuc down a fair bit, but they should cope ok. You could give them a boost later with another brood comb if they need it, you could give them a food comb now if they need it. They need _pollen_ as much as honey. Those confused bees will go to the nearest substitue hive as you point out. That's a useful thing to remember if you want to adjust the numbers of bees in a colony for boosting, reducing or swarm management. > Can anyone tell me what I can expect to happen now? What you do is up to you but consider make sure the nuc stays storng enough (they probably will). Maybe close the entrance a little to reduce the risk of robbing. A potential gottcha -- if those bees left behind go en-masse into an already very full hive, they may trigger swarming due to overcrowding. Maybe take the entrance reducer off? Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:20:42 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Honey Heating In-Reply-To: On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, M.Westby (Max Westby) wrote: > Dear All > Re: the honey warming discussion thread. > I've used an aquarium thermostat with 60W light bulb in old fridge with > great success. These thermostats are cheap, honey proof, and cover just > the right temperature range. A caveate: In the UK, we've *not* found these successful. It's possible that that's due, at least in part, to our higher voltage electricity supply. They are not normally intended to go up to the temperatures we expect either. Regards, Gordon. -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Embryo Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:29:41 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Apistan in honey-producing colonies Comments: To: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU W.G. Miller wrote: On how long must Apistan be out of a colony before the start of the honeyflow, I have heard various answers ranging from "pull strips when you put on the supers" to "28 days". The Apistan label does not specify a waiting interval; only that the strips must be out before honey supers go on. The Waiting Period for Apistan in honey producing colonies is zero (0) days as the active ingredient, tau-fluvalinate is hydrophobic - it will not pass into water or water-based materials from the Apistan formulation. You ARE likely to get residues in honey however, if the insecticide Mavrik is illegally used in place of Apistan, as Mavrik is a water-based preparation itself and will mix more readily with honey. If you're more comfortable in taking the strips out a few weeks before the honeyflow, that's fine but you should not be wooried about tau-fluvalinate residues in honey, providing the Apistan strips are used according to label directions. Dr Max Watkins Technical Development Manager, Sandoz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 09:57:20 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: requeening The description was good! Here in NZ it gets called sieving, and its one of those things you do when you have to do it, but it is to some extent an admission of failure! I've seen a 'permanent' box with excluder nailed on, and aluminium sheet on inside walls (rather than your use of silicon spray - that would be good.) which you would wet slightly before starting to shake the bees. The first 3 or 4 frames of shaking is a real mess, but if you use *just enough* smoke, you can get them moving down. And most of the time you can spot the queen trying to get down between the wires. Many times near the corners, but the flash of her abdomen as she turns head down makes her noticeable. It works, but isn't much fun. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 09:57:19 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: Solar Wax Extractor REFERENCES TO SOLAR BEESWAX EXTRACTORS -------------------------------------- Goodman, R.D. A solar beeswax extractor. The Australian Beekeeper. Nove 1980, page 113-115. Refers to drawings that I don't have, so may have more pages? Double glazed. Black outside, white inside. Lesher, Charles and Morse, Roger A. The efficiency of solar wax extractors. Amer Bee Journal. Dec 1982, page 820-821. Concludes only moderate efficiency; suggests using to reduce volume of old combs prior to further rendering methods. Pennsylvania State University Agric Ext Service plan. Solar beeswa extractor. 1 p. Reference to Order No 790-301. Double glazed. Construction plan only. Anon. Using the sun to melt beeswax. Description for building wax melter based on New Zealand Beekeeper article November 1970 and (NZ) Journal of Agriculture August 1970. Jaycox, E.R. Making and using a solar wax melter. Wellington Bkprs Assn Inc monthly newsletter, May 1987, 2 pp. Reprinted with permission of author. Non-sloping sides. Briscoe, D.A. Putting old sol to work. NZ Journal of Agric 121(2):80,81. 1971. Double glazed, sloped sides. ------------------------------------------ I couldn't readily locate the article that I know I've seen from Clark (?) at University of Pennsylvania. My memory of that was a detailled comparison of construction details to determine which was more efficient: Black or white painted outside (black was better). Black or white painted outside (white was better, aluminium foil even better, but impractical) Single or double glazed (double was better). Sides that slope out or sides perpendicular to base (sloping was better). Insulation below tray or not (insulation best). It also had a mesh tray supported slightly above the tin tray that the wax runs down to the collection tin. This I found a bit messy, but very effective. For most places I've been, its pretty important to make the device truly bee tight, as it puts off an incredibly attractive smell of honey and can cause serious robbing... The aspects that my gut feeling seemed to support were double glazed (near essential) and insulation sheet below the tray the melted wax runs down. The design they arrived at appears to be the one most copied by the authors above. While slightly fiddly to construct (well, for me anyway!) with the angled sides, etc, it makes an excellent melter indeed. The last one I made using these principles I made somewhat larger (since I had the glass...) so it would fit two queen excluders side by side. It also had a weight counterbalanced so I could lift the lid (hinged at the back/top) easily. I also had a set of wheels on the front/bottom, so I could readily swivel it a few times in the day to aim directly at sun. Best to have some sort of cover for the glass for seasons when not in use to reduce glass breakage. And build solid, with the intent that you'll be scraping the tray, mesh, etc, pretty roughly with hive tools, etc. From a wax discolouration point of view, stainless steel would be best, but I've always used galvanised iron. All that for what its worth. I've always been keen on solar melters - I love the smell as much as the bees. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:37:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Hempstead Subject: Re: 2 Queen Hive In the two queen colonies I have run, I use two queen excluders, one on top of the other, between the hive bodies. Does one queen excluder keep the queens from getting to one another? At 08:42 AM 4/26/96 GMT, you wrote: >Hi All > >I read the post the other day about the 2 queen hive setup for build up and >decided to try it for a different purpose. I thought if this works it might >be an easy way to requeen without losing egg laying time. I have a colony >that has not built up properly and had some chalk brood problems. The >colony had gotten up to 3 frames of brood but did not gain any ground for >over three weeks. > >I took 1 frame of emerging brood and moved it above a double screen and a >super with some old brood combs and left them an opening of about 1" by >3/8". I waited about 8 hours and introduced a new queen with a hole punched >through the candy. I checked the top hive body 3 days later and found that >the new queen had been accepted and was laying. Now here is where I got >into trouble. I understood that the double screen should be replaced with a >queen excluder after the new queen had been accepted. I allowed the queen >to lay for 2 more days before doing this. It was almost disaster. There >was a real bee killing going on when I looked at the hive a few hours later. >My solution was to place newspaper between on top of the queen excluder just >like combining 2 swarms. That was 2 days ago and when I checked today they >had cut through the paper and appeared to coexist quite happily. > >The outcome is still in question but if anyone has tried something like this >before and can tell me of further pitfall I need to watch for , I would >appreciate it. The new queen has 3 frames of eggs already. This seems a >bit much considering the number of nurse bees she has to work with. Maybe >the rising heat from below makes this possible. What I plan to do is allow >both queens to lay until they have 8 frames of brood and then remove the old >queen and the queen excluder. > >I have a colony that has a 3 year old queen that I would like to move to a >Nuc and use her for a breeder. I had thought to do this after the honey >flow but she is slowing down and I want to replace her without losing egg >laying time. If this works for the weak colony I am going to try it this >strong healthy colony. > >I would welcome comments and suggestions. > >Frank Humphrey >beekeeper@worldnet.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 20:55:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: 2 Queen Hive (for comb honey) Just one excluder. I used to run Consolidated Double-Queen brood nests when I was pushing the bees into making section comb honey. (This two-queen idea was covered by John A. Hogg in ABJ a few years ago.) In this system you have the usual two brood chambers, but have a queen laying in EACH ONE. This allowed me to super with comb honey supers easily with great results. 1. In spring a nuc is made up (2-3 brood combs, 2 of food) in a brood box and set above the parent colony with a screen board between and small entrance provided for upper unit, in back. Queen is introduced to upper unit. ( ~ April 15-20, NY) 2. Make sure lower unit has plenty of food or feeder, then an excluder&super later when needed. Heat from lower unit will help development of the upper one. Some brood can also be raised up from below to ease congestion. 3. After upper unit's population starts expanding well (say 7-8 frames of bees and brood), the screen board is removed. A full sheet of newspaper is laid atop the lower brood chamber. Than an excluder goes over this. Then the upper brood chamber goes on the excluder, then is pushed forward enough to supply a 3/8" opening along the top rear of the excluder for an entrance to the upper colony. Another sheet of newspaper goes on top of that, and the excluder, super(s) from the lower colony. You can tack a strip above the rear entrance to keep rain out. Both queens remain and continue laying (ideally) all season, or at least for a few weeks. These colonies get really strong and can get quite "swarmy" in certain seasons when run for comb honey. But if you can keep them home they'll really plug out the sections nicely, and the supers will pile up. I think it's easier in some ways than the usual Killion comb honey management. For extracted honey results could be spectacular, considering all you're doing is adding a $6-10 queen. It's quite a sight to see -- this is a real bee-machine; lots of flight from front and back at the same time and bees bubbling out all over. Got to keep them supered up well. They'll make use of every square inch of those brood chamber combs The lower queen will fill the combs with brood often clear across the hive; the upper one won't have quite so much room because the bees will want to store nectar in the outer combs. This is not a major drawback; this new queen will likely be the one going into winter to start up the next season. Either before or after the main honey flow you just take the excluder out from between the brood chambers and that's that. You end up with a high population for wintering. An advantage to this is that if you have a queen fail in a colony it doesn't take it out of production, there being a second queen. Plus you can split the colony into two afterwards or take away the less desirable/older queen - whatever. Instead of a "boughten" queen you could use your own queen cells to establish the upper colony. Lots of potential options. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Note: Any plan like this should be used experimentally (at first), as its success is likely to be dependent on timing and local conditions. - JWG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:09:32 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Today's swarm Comments: To: glen@midnight.com In a message dated 96-04-26 10:44:15 EDT, glen@midnight.com (Glen B. Glater) writes: >I had a swarm land on my back porch today, about 7 feet away from my >swarm trap which they seemed to be ignoring. > >But that's not the point of this email. > >The swarm was about 25 feet in front of my 2 hives. How (if it is >possible at all) can I tell if these bees are (used to be) mine? Generally a swarm will pitch the first time within a couple hundred feet of the original home. I have located unknown bee trees, by scouring the area around a pitched swarm. They don't go far. After the queen has rested (and slimmed down some more) for a couple days, and the scouts have found a home, they may go a half mile or more on the next trip. More certain is to look at the brood frames in your hives. You can spot recently hatched queen cells, by the perfectly round and freshly chewed opening at the bottom. You can also sometimes spot cells that were torn down from the side by the first emerging virgin, which queen died before she ever saw the light of day. You can distinguish these from old cells, which get chewed down in time, and usually are only about half sized, when they let them be, for another use, another season. If one of your hives has swarmed, you will have a virgin queen, which is very difficult to find, as they are runny, and may even take wing. They also are intermediate in size between a worker and a laying queen, so usually it's not worth the time to look for her. Hives that have swarmed, especially if they do so repeatedly, may take a long time to get going again. There is a delay while the queen gets mated and gets her progeny emerging. You can help them come back quickly by giving them a frame or two of brood about a week after they cast the swarm. I like to make sure these frames have eggs as well as sealed brood. This gives the hive another chance to raise a queen, if the virgin queen gets eaten by a bird or dragonfly while on her mating flight, or if the weather is too stormy for her to have a mating flight at all. Good luck. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:09:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: hive color and placement In a message dated 96-04-24 09:25:51 EDT, bmaccion@world.std.com (Bob W Maccione) writes: > This is my first year in beekeeping and I have the following two >questions. (for the record I am taking a local Ag Bee Keeping course >before the bees get here but would like to get the hive ready ahead >of time). > > 1: I would like to put the hive in an area with some pine trees. >This area doesn't get a whole lot of sun and I'm planning on putting a wind >break on the north side. Is it a better idea to put the hive in a sunnier >area? In the south, you need some shade, or bees will spend their summers carrying water. However, bees in deep shade do not forage well, and they will eat you alive when you try to open the hives. (I have one bee yard where I was thinking today, that I need to do a little chain sawing to open them up a bit. The trees are now in full leaf, and they are just too dark to get out to work. In another, more sunny yard nearby, the bees were out working at 7 am, while this one had bees just waking up at 11. A windbreak is extremely important in winter. Hives exposed to the wind will eat up their honey in a hurry, justs trying to keep warm. Hives exposed in the spring will not fly well, and will be retarded in buildup, especially if there is a lot a windy weather. > 2: Color: I'm leaning on a light shade of green to make the hive less >obvious. My SO wants to paint the hive light yellow but if we go with >white or light green she then wants to paint something on the side (what >I have _no_ idea). Does anyone see problems in this area? > A hive that is not noticed is unlikely to be vandalized. I like to blend them in, so white is a terrible color. I like a variety of neutral, inconspicuous colors, and try not to place two hives of the same color alongside each other, with entrances facing the same way. This helps bees orient. A hobbyist beekeeper here lined up eighteen pretty white hives in a nice neat row, all facing south, and about 16 inches apart. By midsummer, several of the middle hives were dead, as the foragers drifted to the end hives, which swarmed repeately. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 08:25:56 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dale Guilford Gordan, You are right about adding insulation, however it did melt wax on a bright sunny day. I painted the inside black which made it more effective. Actually I was making light of the dark cloudy days in Westen New York, no pun intended! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 09:40:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: krengel lawrence e Subject: Re: What a mess! Comments: To: Mason Harris In-Reply-To: Your mess came because you did not follow the old advice - move your hive less than three feet or more than three miles. In between those distances your bees become confused.... well you know that now. If this is a recent move, I would move your nuc back to the old position. Before you move it 15 feet, first move it more than three miles... wait for six weeks and move it back. Otherwise move it a couple of feet each week for a couple of months. I had the same problem with a swarm that moved into a trap and I moved across the yard... in just three days the swarm had established the trap location as home. I lost a couple of handfuls of bees. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA LKrengel@niu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 12:00:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grubbs Organization: The Digital Line Subject: Starline Bees I just ordered 2 Starline Queens on the advice of a friend. Can anyone tell me anything about this type of queen? -- *************************** * Charles (Rick) Grubbs * * digital@avana.net * * Douglasville, Ga SE USA * *************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:09:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: midnitebee Subject: Re: Starline Bees At 12:00 PM 4/27/96 -0400, you wrote: >I just ordered 2 Starline Queens on the advice of a friend. Can >anyone tell me anything about this type of queen? >-- >*************************** >* Charles (Rick) Grubbs * >* digital@avana.net * >* Douglasville, Ga SE USA * >*************************** > YORK BEE IN JEESUP,GA. WILL SEND YOU A BROCHURE.IF YOU CALL THEM 912-427-7311 I have their strain-starline ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:44:12 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: 2 Queen Hive (for comb honey) > I used to run Consolidated Double-Queen brood nests when I was > pushing the bees into making section comb honey. (This two-queen > idea was covered by John A. Hogg in ABJ a few years ago.) > > In this system you have the usual two brood chambers, but have a > queen laying in EACH ONE. This allowed me to super with comb honey > supers easily with great results. I might add that I ran all my colonies under this system about 20 years ago. Everything he said is true, and the description of the methods are excellent. The only thing was that I never got any more honey, on average, than with single queen colonies using the same amount of queens and bees and equipment-- and often less. There was a lot of extra work and the hives got so high I needed a ladder. And the swarms were immense. The one real advantage was that they didn't need much wrapping for wintering. They were so strong that they wintered well. But in the spring half the queens were lost, so there was need to split back up. As far as comb is concerned, I never did run them for that. I suppose they would be good, but I never had trouble getting single queen units to work well, and they are much less work. For one thing a single queen colony would often be as tall as I am, and that with just one standard brood chamber -- and the rest being Ross Rounds boxes. Seeing as I was running about 1,000 boxes and there was a lot of work in any method, I chose the simplest and the most efficient for my area. My *favourite* method was this: Install a package, spread brood, and make sure the nest develops laterally, then add comb foundation (two supers) when the colony needs a second. Keep adding boxes and reversing the comb supers. This is really simple. It has a young queen, rapid buildup, and uniform populations between units. Very few manipulations are needed. The only hitch comes when you need to work a flow that is later than the time when a colony needs a second. In that case, an excluder and super can be put on for space and exchanged for comb boxes when the flow starts. My second favourite, which was more work, was to break two BC colonies down to one when the time came to add the comb, and add the comb boxes. This was a little more productive, but used a big colony and more labour. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:44:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: 2 Queen Hive for comb, cont'd. The reason for the 2 queen system I described is that it's often found that comb honey production over 2 brood boxes is not very successful. By putting a second queen in the upper b.c. you force the bees up into the sections rather than letting them sulk and plug up that upper b.c.; they have no choice. This is in contrast to the "traditional" 2-Q colony as developed and promoted by Farrar et al.. In those you are supposed to let each queen have 2 brood boxes, and super above that. Talk about tall colonies! I can't imagine how he and others managed so many considering the labor and lifting. I think it was even recommended that you reverse the brood chambers, above and below; egad! Wonder how many tipped over... Some folks swear by this plan, tho'. Allen - on your 1-brood chamber comb honey methods - the package method sounds really decent and straightforward - with a new queen like that swarming isn't such a probability (if first-year queens are indeed not likely to swarm even when crowded). [Question - do you bother with an excluder? Brood or pollen end ever end up in the sections?] I wish I was still doing sections so I could try it! Even the Miller/Killion plan requires supplying a new young queen after destroying swarm cells a couple of times and crowding down into one b.c. Labor intensive, that. Then you have all these leftover brood boxes/combs and bees and the problem of what to do with them. Killions just stacked them up on new stands but it seems kind of haphazard to me. Starting with a new queen/package and letting them expand naturally up into working the sections sounds less intrusive, (easier!) and more constructive. So in your experience all that crowding down (a la Demuth) isn't always a requirement for sections? Thanks... ---------J. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:00:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Starline Bees In a message dated 96-04-27 12:07:56 EDT, you write: > just ordered 2 Starline Queens on the advice of a friend. Can >anyone tell me anything about this type of queen? >-- >*************************** >* Charles (Rick) Grubbs * >* digital@avana.net * >* Douglasville, Ga SE USA * >* The Starline Queen is a cross of two Inbred lines of bees. The crossing of the two inbred lines result in a Queen with increased heterosis or hybrid vigor. The lines of bees are selected on the basis of egg laying. Both of the lines used this year have very high rates of lay. The Lines are also selected to lay late into the year as well as starting to lay early in the spring. At the present time these two traits are required by the large commercial beekeepers. Different lines are used in the crosses each year. Also different lines are selected for different things. We are at present looking at Hygienic lines as well as lines to be resistant to the mites. It is easier to select lines to accomplish one thing than it is to select lines to do everything. We can then cross the resulting superior lines. We then evaluate the lines for egg hatch, honey production etc. After the preliminary studies and crosses are done. The stock holders of Hybri-Bees come and select the crosses that will be used the following year. The stock holders of Hybri-Bees represent some of the largest bee operations in the United States. I personally feel that the contributions and experience provided in the selection of stock by the stock holders of Hybri-Bees is one the greatest assets in the whole of the corporation. Given the talent and the large number of colonies to chose from every year makes finding the best bees possible. The total number of hives operated by the stock holders is in excess of 75000 Colonies. In addition to those colonies there is also a large group of beekeepers who buy Starline breeders and raise their own queens. If everything works out we then sell the resulting Hybrid Breeder Queens to enterprises such as York Bee Company. Adee Honey Co., too name a few. Should anyone need any other information on the Starline, Midnight or ARS-Y-C-1 Yugo stocks please feel free and email me direct or call I will be glad to answer as time permits. Dean M. Breaux Executive Vice President Hybri-Bees "Breeding Better Bees" 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City, Florida 33525 (352)521-0164 email Hybri bees @aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:46:46 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: 2 Queen Hive for comb, cont'd. > The reason for the 2 queen system I described is that it's often > found that comb honey production over 2 brood boxes is not very > successful. By putting a second queen in the upper b.c. you force > the bees up into the sections rather than letting them sulk and plug > up that upper b.c.; they have no choice. Yes, although I know quite a few people who do actually make comb over two brood boxes -- and nice comb it is too. I always found it too chancey. I think it depends where you live and your timing. I also know some who use two hives side by side with the supers (on excluders) straddling both, and an adapter lid on each side. That's similar to your two queen system in some ways. > > This is in contrast to the "traditional" 2-Q colony as developed and > promoted by Farrar et al.. In those you are supposed to let each > queen have 2 brood boxes, and super above that. Talk about tall > colonies! I can't imagine how he and others managed so many > considering the labor and lifting. I think it was even recommended > that you reverse the brood chambers, above and below; egad! Wonder > how many tipped over... Some folks swear by this plan, tho'. I played with that too, but found no benefit where I live. > > Allen - on your 1-brood chamber comb honey methods - the package > method sounds really decent and straightforward - with a new queen > like that swarming isn't such a probability (if first-year queens > are indeed not likely to swarm even when crowded). [Question - do > you bother with an excluder? No. Sometimes I wished I did because we would switch boxes -- bees and all -- between hives and I think sometimes the queen would be up in one looking a round, so we'd lose her. > Brood or pollen end ever end up in the > sections?] No. (Well, *very* seldom -- maybe once in 1000 boxes and then only a few drones around the edge of a section). We'd dig them out and put the section back for finishing -- always came out perfect, too. > I wish I was still doing sections so I could try it! > Even the Miller/Killion plan requires supplying a new young queen > after destroying swarm cells a couple of times and crowding down > into one b.c. Labor intensive, that. Then you have all these > leftover brood boxes/combs and bees and the problem of what to do > with them. Killions just stacked them up on new stands but it seems > kind of haphazard to me. Well, we were in it to make money and any ideas that did not pay got forgotten quickly. We don't pride ourselves on the largest crop per hive. We try for the largest profit per operation. Those with fewer colonies, and/or more energy and brains than I have developed elaborate systems and rules, but we have to keep things simple, and just do what the bees demand. It's usually pretty plain when you lift the lid -- often before. > Starting with a new queen/package and letting them expand naturally > up into working the sections sounds less intrusive, (easier!) and > more constructive. I always hate any operation that does drastic things to the bees and undoes their work. Spring splits or nucs work too. I always figure that if it takes two hives and no work to make 250 sections, I prefer that to using one that is constant effort. > So in your experience all that crowding down (a > la Demuth) isn't always a requirement for sections? We've done it many ways and if you understand what the bees need, just about anything will work in a decent flow. That's not to say the method in question isn't good, but just that it often (usually) is not necessary for decent results. Crowding is important at some points in the comb process, but defeats you at others. If we only knew how long the flow would be, we could really let them out in the early part, and increase the crowding near the end. We just make sure that when we take a lid off and look -- day or night -- there are always bees on all frames in all boxes at all times (when we are producing comb). A lot of bees will cluster in a very few boxes when there is only foundation, but much more room is needed as comb fills the space, so they naturally crowd as the comb finishes -- if you gave them the right amount to work on. Bees will build comb anywhere if they are crowded comfortably and warm and have a good flow. Too much empty space will defeat would-be comb producers. It is a good thing in extracted honey, but to finish comb one has to keep things just a bit crowded. It's not a stable condition, so you have to keep watching. We don't like to see too much hanging out either -- especially in the morning. Sorry, I don't think I'm writing too well this afternoon, but I hope that what I'm trying to say is at least understandable. Maybe we'll write some more later... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:43:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: What a mess! On just how fixed bees can be to a given location, a little adventure of mine for everyone's amusement: Once I turned the entrance of a colony around (the colony boxes were not moved). Total "move distance" - less than 2 feet. Nevertheless, for nearly a week most of the returning field force landed on what was now the back of colony, and walked around to the front. This performance amazed all my friends. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:16:33 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Bread recipe Comments: cc: fjollen@pen.k12.va.us Hello all, My wife wants to know if anyone has a recipe for a fat-free whole wheat bread containing honey. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Fred ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:24:19 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: RECIPES Hello all, My wife is looking for a recipe for a fat-free whole wheat bread containing honey. We had a opportunity to try some recently and liked it very much. She would like to try making it herself. We'd appreciate anyp. Thanks, Fred ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:25:56 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: comb honey > Okay Allen! thank you for your detailed comments - yes, with a > large operation you certainly can't waste time with fussy > operations and colony conditions which vary too much. Extensive > vs. intensive management, as they say. > I could afford to play around since I was only making about > 1000-1500 sections. Still, the flows not being very predictable > around here, I was pretty pleased with what I was able to > accomplish. I did try supering with rounds on 2 brood boxes but > it was more inconsistent and they didn't get finished as well. > I could afford to play around since I was only making about > 1000-1500 sections. Still, the flows not being very predictable > around here, I was pretty pleased with what I was able to > accomplish. I did try supering with rounds on 2 brood boxes but it > was more inconsistent and they didn't get finished as well. > > Spring splits -- I should note that some of the best early comb > honey crops (basswood/honeysuckle/locust) were "got" (with the > swarming controlled) by just reducing a strong 2-story hive (on > verge of q. cells) to one brood chamber, with the queen, and 3-4 > brood frames only. Plus a food frame or two; rest empty drawn comb. > I did this first as a desparate swarm control measure (with > suprising results). We always gave them all the brood. Should have tried your method more often perhaps. We did break strong (swarming) doubles in half, put comb on both and let them make their own queen in half -- the same thing, I guess -- but we preferred to do the breakdown before it got to that. > > Sort of like making a nuc and putting it back on the main stand. > The rest of the brood was set aside to raise a queen and I could get > an extracting super or two filled to boot. Anyway, these 1 - story > hives supered with round sections would do amazing work (timing must > have been important just the same). 5-8 supers easy before the > darker honey started in. And once they were going at the sections > they never seemed to even think about swarming. Given the > propensity to work so well, they probably would have even made nice > work of square sections. It was also interesting to see the queens > laying right up to the hive walls in that single box; brood "wood to > wood" in the frames. > > Which is to say that I agree with what you found through your > efforts. Maybe someday I'll get back into sections again, at least > in the home yard "dirty dozen". I know there is a big demand even > still for any kind of sections. > Reason why I sold all that > equipment was the high cost of all the rings, labels, caps, etc. and Yes, we're a dealer and that helps, but the cost of these parts hasn't been keeping up with inflation, so they are becoming relatively reasonable. The trick is to run at least 100 boxes (20 hives) and get quotes from several dealers -- Kelley, Dadant, etc. prices drop quite a bit in such quantity. Tom Ross has been steadily promoting round combs and the market for finished combs is expanding. > I decided cut comb might be more compatible with the regular extr. > equipment. (Unfinished sections are such a headache). We usually put the robbed unfinished sections back on as bait, and they would be seconds or often firsts in the market we sold into. having some seconds to sell helps in some marketing plans. > Plus I had > trouble getting a good wholesale price on the rounds, problems with > granulation - you know well! There is an art to it in many ways. That's the truth. I wonder how prices will be with the increased prices of bulk honey? I wonder what the latest word is on bulk prices. I heard that Argentine honey is bidding lower now. > > BTW I only messed with the 2 queen stuff for about 3 years; then > discovered the approach mentioned above -- never actually determined > which would be the preferred routine as I changed back to extracting > frames exclusively. > > Well, thanks again for taking the time to reply; always enjoy > hearing from you. have a great one... JWG Well we're 100% extracting now here too -- although I have 300 Ross Rounds supers downstairs (probably sold). We may get in again later, but we got out in preparation for a large dedicated pollination contract that didn't work out for this year. Comb is ideal for a small operation that doesn't want to mess with extracting, and wants to make a big return. We usually made double after costs on what extracting paid per hive. As you say, the management is much harder, though. Yeah, thanks Joel. Fun to discuss this. I'll post this reply. I'm sure you have no objection even though your reply came to me direct -- perhaps in error. I think that some on the list have been following this thread. We have several budding comb producers out there. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 16:09:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Split sting Queens I have just found Two Queens with split stingers. If any research people are interested in them drop me a note and I will consider shipping them to you. I have already inseminated them with a drone from the parent colony. Both Queens Have been single drone Inseminated. Dean Breaux Executive Vice President Hybri Bees 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City Florida 33525 352 521 0164 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: wholesale honey market I would appreciate any reports of current pricing on wholesale loads of honey. Allen Dick reported lower prices on Argentine honey coming in. Some packers are offering contracts on this years crops. Anyone care to predict at what prices packers may offer in Sept-Oct? With the honey loan program nixed(so I hear), I thought that the market may soften somewhat this fall, but may pick up at the end of the year. One packer offered .90/lb. We're tempted to contract. Thanks, Kirk Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones email b-man@aliens.com when you get lemons, make lemonade.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 02:53:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: wholesale honey market This message was from ANDY NACHBAUR to Kirk Jones originally in conference IN-BEEKEEPIN on WILDBEES (WILD BEE'S BBS) and was forwarded to you by ANDY NACHBAUR ---------------------------------------- KJ>From: Kirk Jones >Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:16:50 -0400 >Subject: wholesale honey market KJ>I would appreciate any reports of current pricing on wholesale loads of >honey. Allen Dick reported lower prices on Argentine honey coming in. I missed that report, but there will be no new Argentine crop until next November and much of that honey has moved into the market. Sue Bee had to purchase 4+ million pounds which was "new" business for Argentine honey. KJ>Some packers are offering contracts on this years crops. Anyone care to >predict at what prices packers may offer in Sept-Oct? Honey packers in California are saying "big crop" here, this is far from the truth and the crop will be much less then last year because of the lack of rain from LA south, and that the area that can make up the big crops is LA south. The Orange flow was cut short by cold weather here in Central California and in Florida. Plant condition reports are not all good from producing areas with some lateness of bloom due to local weather conditions. The Dakotas are reported to look good, but Texas is suffering from the lack of rain. Bee conditions overall are not great with much makeup because of winter loss. KJ>With the honey loan program nixed(so I hear), I thought that the market may >soften somewhat this fall, but may pick up at the end of the year. Yes, no LOAN program on honey, but it should not make that much difference as there are still banks open. As for the market it's all guess work as in the history of honey marketing we as producers have never have experienced. You can be sure the packers will be doing everything to force the market down. The consumption of all sugars was up in 1995 world wide and is expected to be up another 4-5% this year. KJ>One packer offered .90/lb. We're tempted to contract. That is a very good price and may be the highest price you have ever received. But so is the gas you buy... Cash sales made last week for old crop white honey (as private report) were still at $1.01 cents per pound delivered, drums back. All in all, the price you sell for is the market price and .90 cents ahead of production is very nice with this: WARNING!! Honey packers have a history of not honoring early contracts. "yor honey is dark'er, wet'er, or whatever" So be sure you have a real contract and know your buyer. If the price is higher then .90 cents you will not have a worry. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 22:07:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Apis Cerana I was looking in "Social Behavior of Bees" by Michener (1974) for Apis Cerana and it said they were from the far east (where I think varroa come from)and that they were dying out as more A. Melifra were being brought in. Is there anything being done with A. Cerana crosses for Vmite resistance? Thank you Jeffrey R. Tooker 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 01:47:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Maynard R. Thompson" Subject: Preferred Poison. Ants, ants, ants. Perhaps this seems like a small problem, (pun intended) in my case it is a big problem. My next door neighbor realizes that I have bees and (does not object). Last year year she used Sevin and spread it about for the control of ants/roaches/other garden pests. My hive crashed miserably. Now, my neighbor and I had the Sevin discussion the other day and I described what happens when the bees carry Sevin dust back to the hive. I asked her for some time to derive some better alternatives. This agreed, I ask the list for suggestions if I may? The most obvious solution is to move my home hive out in the country with the rest of them and be done with it. However, I wish to have bees in the backyard for the enjoyment of it and would appreciate the input with regard to picking my poison. I have considered granular preparations and suggesting these for our mutual benefit. ****Any suggestions, what has worked for you,etc..? Graciously thanking you in advance! Maynard mthompso@MAIL.coin.missouri.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:46:42 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Sanitary and Phytosanitary In the 'brave new world' of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, an important document is called the Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary measures. It describes the principles that will underpin the world trade in honey, bees and bee products into the future. If you would like a copy (it is 38k as a text file), send a message to me: nickw@wave.co.nz (Please do not just reply to this message, as that will go to the entire list) In the *Subject* line of your message (not the body of the message), put the words: SEND SPS and my mail 'robot' will send it on to you. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 08:02:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kim Flottum Subject: Wax Melter Article Good Morning, After following the discussion during the past few days, and at the risk of receiving the wrath of the anti-commercial voice of the list, I would like to let readers know that the June issue of Bee Culture magazine has an excellent article on the construction and use of Solar Wax Melters by Dick Bonney. Several photos and diagrams are available, as is a practical down-to-earth article on using a melter. Please contact me directly (not via the list, please) at BCULTURE@AOL.COM, or call 800-289-7668, ext 3220, for more info. Again, I apologize if this message is too commercial for the list. Kim Flottum Editor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 08:21:21 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Today's swarm > From: "Glen B. Glater" > Subject: Today's swarm > > ... > The swarm was about 25 feet in front of my 2 hives. How (if it is > possible at all) can I tell if these bees are (used to be) mine?.... > A way to accomplish this follows. Shake the entire swarm into an empty deep super which has a queen excluder nailed to the bottom. Place an inner cover over the top of the deep and elevate this now closed box on cinder blocks or whatever works. Pumping copious amounts of smoke into the box will coax the workers to exit through the queen excluder and the queen will be trapped behind. Separated from the queen, the workers will return to the location from which they emerged. However, once the site is identified you will know what hive is going to swarm again. My advice would be to consider yourself fortunate to have found the swarm, catch it, and evaluate your other hives to determine what management is in order for the possibly 'post swarming' state. Incidently, swarms can be excellent comb honey producers. It is amazing how quickly a swarm can draw and fill foundation only boxes! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:09:53 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Charles Brand Subject: Re: RECIPES In-Reply-To: <199604281324.JAA117508@pen2.pen.k12.va.us> Fat-free recipe for whole wheat bread for use with bread-making machine: HONEY WHOLE WHEAT--NO FAT From: German, D.R. *The Bread Machine Cookbook III*. San Leandro, CA: Bristol Publishing Enterprises, Inc., 1992. Small Medium Large Water 3/4 cup 1 1/8 c 1 1/2 c honey 2 tbs 3 tbs 1/4 c salt 1/4 tsp 1/3 tsp 1/2 tsp whole wheat flour 1 cup 1 1/2 c 2 c bread flour 1 cup 1 1/2 c 2 c yeast 1 tsp 1 1/2 tsp 2 tsp Personal note: I have make this recipe several times and it never yielded a disappointing loaf. It is one of my favorite bread recipes. Good luck! ________________________ | | | Charles F. Brand | | Marymount University | | Arlington, VA 22207 | | | | (301) 937-1263 (h) | | (703) 284-1625 (o) | | (703) 284-1693 (fax) | |________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 09:54:01 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. Every spring I get ants inside the house running around my kitchen. This year a veritable army of the buggers were threatening to carry away the table and chairs. I don't mind a few running about. Anyway, for the first time I used some liquid stuff called "Terro" Ant Killer II which I bought at a local True Value Store. It's a liquid and you pour a small amount on a piece of cardboard-I never saw anything work so fast. I put it in an obscure little corner on their pathway. They were all gone in 24 hours. I never saw anything work that fast. I don't like using poisons in general but I had to do something. What I would suggest is that you make some kind of little containers (with this stuff or something else inside) for your neighbor and put a few around her yard. Something that has holes or entrances that are just too small for bees to get in. This way she can get rid of her ants and you can continue (as I do also) to enjoy the pleasures of a backyard hive or two. Al Needham Hobbyist Scituate, MA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:11:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Taylor Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. Hi Maynard, Don't have any good ideas for picking poisons, just wanted to say hello to another Missourian. I'm a new beekeeper in Cape Girardeau, MO. Just thought I'd find out where you are. John Taylor LifeBeat Air Medical Cape Girardeau, MO http://www.cris.com/~Johntrn1/index.shtml ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 07:41:18 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Don Bowen Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. At 09:54 AM 4/29/96 -0400, you wrote: >Every spring I get ants inside the house running around my kitchen. This year >a veritable army of the buggers were threatening to carry away the table and >chairs. I don't mind a few running about. Anyway, for the first time I used >some liquid stuff called "Terro" Ant Killer II which I bought at a local True >Value Store. It's a liquid and you pour a small amount on a piece of >cardboard-I never saw anything work so fast. I put it in an obscure little >corner on their pathway. They were all gone in 24 hours. I never saw anything >work that fast. I don't like using poisons in general but I had to do >something. THe blue stuff is mostly sugar, water, and borax. It is easy to mix at home using borax soap, honey, and water. The home made stuff is just as effective as the bought stuff and a lot less expensive. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA Senior Software Engineer Bee Point acres Smith Automation Systems, inc USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 21 organic gardener, woodworker, beekeeper, reader 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 1 cat, 2 acres, no TV ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:00:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Verville Subject: Bees Wanted Comments: To: att!BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU For a friend, His 16 year old nephew is looking to start keeping bees. The boy has equipment and all the gear less the bees. Lives in Oswego NY (supermods!) and has asked me to ask around. If you have bees and live somewhere around there please contact me. He called the southern supplies and was told that they where out untill June/July. Thanks Dave Verville ECBA Vp Topsfield MA. mvdfv@mvcss.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:53:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Bees Wanted I will be making up nucs in the next month. How many would he need? I'm just east of Ithaca. Let me know... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:00:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Hive moving There have been numerous posts recently regarding moving hives be it a few feet or a few miles. We devised a system some considerable time ago which I feel I should share, as it works. We go to the hive when all flying has ceased and staple some hardware cloth across the entrance, to provide full ventilation our inner covers are screened to prevent bees exiting. The hive is moved to the new location, even if it is just a few feet, sealed as we just described, and then left alone for 1 full sun cycle. Then after 24 hrs we remove the entrance screening and drop handfulls of grass, straw or twigs across the entrance, this will confuse the bees when exiting the hive. What this does is to prevent field bees coming to the entrance and taking off without regard to their new location. We use this system on nuc's and full sized hives and on checking the old location we never see bees looking for their old home. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:48:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. Dan Bowen: You mis-read my message about the True Value Hardware Store ant poison stuff. I didn't say anything about "blue" stuff. Which is okay, I am not complaining. What is the formula for your mixture of borax soap, honey and water - how much of each? Perhaps some others reading Bee-L would be interested (besides myself). Thanks. Al Needham Hobbyist Scituate,MA,USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:48:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Bees in Cyberspace Comments: cc: RBARNES@halnet.com I recently received a private e-mail message concerning a "Bees in Cyberspace" talk I did at a local BeeKeepers Association Meeting. The words (in one of its paragraphs) "increase participation and awareness of bees" ties in with some thoughts I have had lately for creating a software program (illustrated Electronic Book-which I will 'modestly' say I am pretty good at creating) about HoneyBees for the general public-an educational type of work - to try and move many people away from their typical reaction that is not that dissimilar from people's thoughts on Sharks, etc. I would not mind doing it as "freeware". Perhaps it could have an ad in it for another program that I would create on "Starting Your Own Bee Hive" that maybe I would sell or perhaps better yet, that could be "freeware" to, with maybe "paid for" ads placed by BeeKeeping Suppliers. (Any suppliers out there who would be interested in this idea?) For reference purposes, I will call this Educational E-Book "Buzz" unless one of you out there suggests something better. Maybe the "Buzz" program could also emphasize and encourage people - young or old - to try out BeeKeeping. Perhaps some of you out there would be interested in creating an article for this "freeware", which of course would be annotated as being Copyrighted by the author. Something from a hobbyist, as well as some of you experienced commercial types, would be great - what got you interested or started - how has beekeeping enriched your life - new friends,etc. Great hobby for new retirees or those looking for something to keep them alive and alert when they do retire, etc. I would like the overall theme to be simple, educational, interesting reading with a touch of good humor thrown in. Something "fun" to read. I also have thought about an Electronic BeeKeeper Magazine and its possibilities-although Bee-L itself is in effect an Ezine of sorts. Anyway, if any of you readers (worldwide) have any thoughts on this subject or would be interested in contributing in some way to this "Buzz" program - I'd like to hear from you. Perhaps some of you have some scanned photos that would be appropriate (also appropriately credited/ copyrighted to you.) Given what appears to be the possible wholesale dissapearance of feral bees, I think we need to do something protect our bees and create a healthy appreciation of same amongst the general public. Al Needham Hobbyist Scituate,MA,USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:57:03 GMT+1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: NZ's Pest Mgmt Strategy for AFB... I have recently updated the NZ Beekeeping Home Pages to include more details about NZ's proposed Pest Management Strategy for AFB. You can find the reference to the page in my .sig file. If any advisory/regulatory personnel who read the list (or any interested beekeeper for that matter!) wants to know more about the Biosecurity Act that necessitates the PMS or the general history/method of disease control in NZ, I'd be happy to supply information. ------------------------------------------ Nick Wallingford President - National Beekeepers Assn of NZ NZ beekeeping: http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz home nickw@wave.co.nz ------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Don Bowen Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. At 05:48 PM 4/29/96 -0400, you wrote: >Dan Bowen: > >You mis-read my message about the True Value Hardware Store ant poison stuff. >I didn't say anything about "blue" stuff. Which is okay, I am not >complaining. The stuff I picked up at the local True Value is in a plastic bottle and has a blue tint. You use by placing a bit on a square of cardboard. It is labled Pic Ant Killer. Active ngredient is listed as 5% borax. >What is the formula for your mixture of borax soap, honey and water - how >much of each? Perhaps some others reading Bee-L would be interested (besides >myself). I just mix some borax soap in water until the borax is mixed competly then mix in sugar or honey until it is also mixed in. We used borax soap from the box to get rid of a flea problem several years ago. Just scatter it in the carpets and let it sit for a bit. Then vaccumm it all up. A couple of applications and the problem went away. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA Senior Software Engineer Bee Point acres Smith Automation Systems, inc USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 21 organic gardener, woodworker, beekeeper, reader 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 1 cat, 2 acres, no TV ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:03:07 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Method to count feral colonys? Hi All, Is there a method to approximate the number of feral colonys that we have in any area? I gave a talk to a school today about bees. About 150 children were present.The children noticed that there were few bees around this year. So I took a drive around and scouted apple trees and dandilion blooms. I saw 1 honey bee in two hours.40 t0 50 apple trees. The sun was shinning also. I think feral colonys are history in my area.This seems worse to me than I first thought that we would loose some honey bees and would have some wild one left to pollenate the wild berrys and nut for the birds to live on. I would like to know if there are any ongoin studys going on about the wild bees? We may see some major changes in wildlife because of the loss of the feral colonys. I'm in Washington state USA and I wonder if othere areas have the same problem. Thank You Beast Reagards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:52:19 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Method to count feral colonys? At 04:03 PM 4/29/96 -0700, you wrote: > Hi All, Is there a method to approximate the number of feral colonys >that we have in any area? I gave a talk to a school today about bees. >About 150 children were present.The children noticed that there were few >bees around this year. So I took a drive around and scouted apple trees >and dandilion blooms. I saw 1 honey bee in two hours.40 t0 50 apple >trees. The sun was shinning also. I think feral colonys are history in my >area.This seems worse to me than I first thought that we would loose some >honey bees and would have some wild one left to pollenate the wild berrys >and nut for the birds to live on. > I would like to know if there are any ongoin studys going on about the >wild bees? We may see some major changes in wildlife because of the loss >of the feral colonys. I'm in Washington state USA and I wonder if othere >areas have the same problem. Thank You > Beast Reagards > Roy > > Roy: I was talking to the wife of the owner of the bee supply house in Sacramento. Ca. She said that U.C. Davis said that California has lost about 80% of its feral bees. I got the e-mail address of the U.C. Davis Apiculturist. He might be able to answer some of your questions. Eric Mussen Hope this helps. Jeffrey R Tooker 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 18:29:45 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Brazil Hello All: I have found translaters for Portuguese. If you have questions for Espenser at the University of Sao Palo in Brazil, e-mail posts to me and I will get them translated and sent. Espenser will probably post to the net in English. Thank You Jeffrey R. Tooker 33600 Navion Paynes Creek Ca. 96075 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 19:25:12 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: _ Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. You wrote: > > Ants, ants, ants. Hi, if it's hives of ants like you get in south texas or florida or......gasoline works great....problems....it's illegal (you're pouring gallons of gasoline in a hole in the ground), it's a little dangerous (you then Light It!)....it kills the grass... but it often gets rid of the ants. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:39:13 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Hive moving > We go to the hive when all flying has ceased If there is a rush, smoking the hive from time to time over a half hour period -- or often less -- will have almost all the bees at home, even at mid-day (the field bees don't go back out). Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:16:58 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Clark Subject: Re: What a mess! This method was told to me by a beekeeper with many years of experience: If you are moving hives short distances it helps to place a piece of wood on the ground in front of the hive. The wood should be long, say a fence pailing, and painted a light colour. The wood should be placed in front of the hive so that it points to the hive. By placing this in front of the hive a few days before you wish to move them, they begin to use it as a landing marker. As you move the hive a short distance the bees seem to reorientate on the white landing marker.Sometimes if they come in at the wrong position they fly around the hive to realign themselves with the landing marker. He also told me that if you are moving 2 hives this method also helps. They learn their hive is on either side of the landing mark ( which is placed between the two hives) and when they are moved a few days later it helps to reduce drift between hives. I haven't tried it yet but it sounds ok Any Comments ??? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 04:22:26 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: What a mess! > This method was told to me by a beekeeper with many years of > experience: > > If you are moving hives short distances it helps to place a piece of > wood on the ground in front of the hive. > Any Comments ??? True, anything _can_ help. But what happens when you move a hive of bees depends on -- like everything in beekeeping -- on many interrelated factors... time of year flow/no flow weather (rain/sun) daily flight levels terrain distance of foraging climate hive size hive history breed of bees diseases/pests number of nearby hives and probably a lot more Migratory beekeepers routinely load bees in the daytime -- due to necessity, although it is preferred to do so when flight is nil. Id est: at night, early morning, in the rain, during winter, etc. We routinely move hives 4 or five feet in a yard for tidying or when reversing, without any measures at all. It is pretty obvious if it is causing much drifting or confusion, in which case we just undo the action just taken. If there is no significant flow, the bees are usually not overly intent on coming and going and get back home okay. The other hives in the yard serve as markers like the wood you describe -- if we don't disturb the pattern too much with our rearranging. Sometimes we deliberately position a hive to gather extra bees, or give some up. Sometimes we'll lean a lid in front of a hive to divert some of the bees. An experienced beekeeper can tell the effect of the positioning. Most days all the bees will find some hive and go in and be accepted with no problem. David's method is pretty foolproof and removes the need for much understanding of the bees, and is also to be recommended where a person is not comfortable with experimenting. It makes a good general practice that won't ever go wrong. The literature says that it takes about three days for bees to lose their memory of 'home', but in my experience a full day, and confinement and confusing the entrance seldom, if ever, fails -- as he points out. A big problem is that a new hand will see an experienced beekeeper go around a yard doing things and assume they can be done that way all the time -- without realising that the beekeeper is looking all the time to see what the bees are doing as a result of his actions, and adjusting his activities to get desired results or avoid problems. The experienced hand probably knew what to expect before he drove into the yard, and definitely knew as soon as he glanced -- probably unconsciously at and entrance or two, or automatically lifted a lid or two. He likely had a pretty good idea as soon as he walked out the door at home how the bees would react to his activities. The next day, that same afternoon -- or minutes later due to weather changes -- that same beekeeper may do things very differently -- causing some considerable consternation to the newbie. Everyone gets fooled now and then, as we did in our package bee fiasco described here earlier. Sometimes the bees just don't follow the rules, and it is necessary to figure out how to recover from an error. Sometimes the weather hands you a big surprise. If you have bees returning to a spot where hives were located, be it 5 feet or 1 mile, they can be picked up by placing a super on the spot, preferably with a comb or two, and reunited with the parent or some other colony after being confined for a day or so, or used for other purposes. When a whole yard has to be moved out during the day when there is much flight, the bees are smoked constantly while loading and a 'catch hive' is left -- if practical in the centre of the yard to be picked up later. It may or may not have a queen or brood, or even combs. Usually virtually all returning bees will find it and move in. ---------------------------------------------------- Footnote: Interesting enough, we have discussed this topic along with others that re-emerge from time to time quite exhaustively in previous discussions some year(s) ago. It's a shame to have all that work going to waste. I've recently been wondering if anyone has the endurance to go through the logs to make up a FAQ. I don't, although I'd love to and think we could use one. Maybe a team effort is called for. I realise we do have a FAQ of sorts, but it was put together some long time ago and doesn't include the many discussions that have been covered on the list or the many new resources that have sprung up recently. Comments? Volunteers?? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 07:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Moving hives tip Somebody once told me you can put a hive on an old tire/rim from an auto, with a rope attached. Then every day pull the rope and move the hive a few feet until you reach the destination. Takes away the problem of lifting to shift positions, as the wheel will slide over the ground if fairly level. Then landmarks like wood or whatever can be gradually moved along with the hive. I once used an old kiddie pool (plastic) which was bright yellow and turned upside down, placed a couple of feet in front of the hive. The bees will really home in on something big like that! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 06:55:31 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Moving hives tip > Somebody once told me you can put a hive on an old tire/rim from an > auto, with a rope attached. Then every day pull the rope and move > the hive a few feet until you reach the destination. Oh, yes, and BTW the lore is that if you move a hive a foot the first day, then two the second and four the third, etc. the bees get used to looking for the hive and will accept progressively larger shifts (up to some practical limit, I would assume). I don't know, because I have never had a problem with this since my beginner days when I moved a hive a few feet during a flow and was worried about the confusion that resulted. Now I assume that they would have eventually sorted it out, found the hive and gone in. The bees have gotten much smarter as I have gained experience . Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:05:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: What a mess! In a message dated 96-04-30 06:31:13 EDT, Allen Dick writes: >A big problem is that a new hand will see an experienced beekeeper go >around a yard doing things and assume they can be done that way all >the time -- without realising that the beekeeper is looking all the time >to see what the bees are doing as a result of his actions, and >adjusting his activities to get desired results or avoid problems. > > Every situation needs to be thought through, and we have to make the best of the circumstances we face. When you are 150 miles from home, with 30 or 40 hives to move, and waiting until dark means a night in the cab or a motel, you might go ahead and load when you are going to lose some field bees. And there are circumstances when losing them may actually help the bees. When I move bees back into home yards in the fall, I am very fussy to save every possible bee, as queens are shutting down; no replacements are being made for losses. Each bee adds to the cluster which is necessary to get through cold spells. In the spring, when bees are brooded up, and tending to swarminess, lost bees will be replaced quickly, and the loss may prevent a swarm. Often you can move a yard of bees with nucs to catch the field force. One beekeeper I know places all his hives in rings of eight with four nucs in the center, also facing outward. When he moves the parent hives about May 1, the nucs are strengthened, and they are ready two or three weeks later. Many loads of bees are now heading north from the southeast. This is "fingernail-chewing time" for the beekeeper, who may have a major portion of his livelihood concentrated on the load (s). Beekeepers always hope for cool, rainy weather for trucking. Some used to use reefers, but unit failures have pretty well discouraged that. Six hundred hives on a tractor trailer in 90 degree weather is a beekeeper's bad dream. But truckers have schedules, and sometimes it can't be avoided. In hot weather bees may not survive an eight to twelve hundred mile trip, especially if they are congested, and full of new nectar. In this case, the beekeeper will want to plan his move with the bees having a maximum of 4 - 4 1/2 frames of brood, and lose the field force first. There are several migratory beekeepers here. When they load, they don't always have "catch hives" and I hate to see the resource wasted. The field bees are somewhat like a swarm, with their bellies all full. A couple years ago, I got twenty boxes of foundation drawn in a couple days, plus about 17 nice hives. As we loaded, I watched to see where bees were clustering. We had the bees strung along a lane, with brush alongside, moving the tractor trailer ahead as we loaded. Under each limb which was catching a bunch, I placed a box with a frame of brood, a queen cell, and 9 frames of foundation. They popped that foundation out, almost overnight. Forgive my rambling. Like Allen says, when moving bees it's necessary to think through the situation, the condition of the bees, the time of year, and all the other factors. The best choice of techniques comes with knowledge and experience. And sometimes the best choice for the bees, may not be the possible choice, given the beekeeper's situation. So we do the best we can. Some comments for newbies, who are often scared to death when moving bees. Don't try to move bees with supers on; a day or so before they are moved, remove supers. Make sure bottom boards are stapled. DON'T tape or seal them up, especially in hot weather; a lot of bees are suffociated this way. When the bees find they cannot get out, they get excited, which created more heat, which makes them more excited, and they can do a total meltdown quicker than you'd believe. Best bet (the ideal move, which, of course, is not always possible): Load about an hour before dark WITHOUT closing the hives. Give each some smoke and glide them onto the truck without any thumping. Single story hives can be handled by one person. The hive "should" have handholds on the ends. Doubles require two people unless you are Paul Bunyon. They should be either stapled or well glued by bees ahead of time; you don't want them coming apart as you load. Plan to be DONE before dark, as crawley bees are no fun at all! If it is hot, and bees are hanging out, hose them down, or put some crushed ice on them. Driving also cools and calms the bees. Drive to the new site before sunrise, and unload in the light. TRY not to shake the bees on ruts and holes. They usually are very gentle, if not shaken. I've moved hives many a time, with 20 - 40 hives on the truck in my driveway overnight. Of course you don't want to oversleep. May your flowers be full of nectar. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 13:44:23 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jane Beckman Subject: Re: What a mess! About this fixation on returning to a hive in a certain place, bees landing on a turned hive and walking around the the now-differently-oriented entrance, etc. --- I was watching workers returning to my hive, this weekend, and was amazed at the path some were taking. The hive is on top of a tool shed roof, where it is shaded by a large ash tree in summer. The entrance faces northeast, and the tree dips a large branch down on the east side. When the tree is in leaf, bees flying in from the east would have to circle around the branch like a plane circling in to an airport runway. Despite the leafless condition of the branches there, they are still following the pattern, circling well around the skeletal branches, rather than following a more direct route. Little ladies surprised me by swarming, the end of last week. I've caught them tossing what appear to be dismembered queen pupae/larvae out of the hive, the past couple mornings. I figure I'll give the new queen a while to settle in before checking how she's laying... Of course, I'll never forget the year they swarmed on February 2nd... Crossing my fingers in San Jose Jane B. [jane@swdc.stratus.com] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:10:18 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: All plastic frames/comb Comments: To: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" As I expand, I am considering switching over to all plastic frames/drawn comb. I would like to get some feedback from folks that currently use them. If you would e-mail me direct at the address below I would like to e-mail you some questions. Thanks... God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:30:31 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Apis cerana REGARDING RE> Apis cerana Jeffrey R. Tooker writes: "I was looking in "Social Behavior of Bees" by Michener (1974) for Apis Cerana and it said they were from the far east (where I think varroa come from)and that they were dying out as more A. Melifra were being brought in. Is there anything being done with A. Cerana crosses for Vmite resistance?" True, Apis cerana, the Indian honey bee, was the original host of Varroa jacobsoni mites. These bees are able to co-exist with the mites, a fact which makes study of their habits important in knowing what mite resistant qualities to look for in Apis mellifera. Dr. Roger Hoopingarner at Michigan State Univ. (among others I suspect) has been evaluating several factors which allow A. cerana to hold their own, including a shortened interval within sealed brood cells, grooming behavior, hygienic behavior, and perhaps other factors. These factors are present in strains of A. mellifera, as well, and could be selected for in producing mite resistant bees. I doubt that actual crosses with A. cerana would be possible, because these bees are quite a bit smaller in size than A. mellifera. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:38:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Plastic frame usage REGARDING Plastic frame usage I have used a limited number of Pierco plastic frames for a number of years in the honey supers, but never in the brood nest. They worked well for me after the first season, when the bees had to be coaxed into using them. They are very easy to uncap, either with knives, planes or automatic uncappers. The main drawback I see is that they are quite heavy compared with wood and beeswax comb frames. I would be willing to respond to any questions you might have. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:33:18 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Eastern Pollinator Hello Dave, Please send me information on subscribing to your newsletter. I have started delivering hives to watermellon fields and am realizing how much I need to learn about pollination. I would like to focus my business mainly towards pollination. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., 137 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 15:58:24 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ana Maria Quiniones Subject: Oxalis pollination Hello to all bee-liners. My name is Ana Maria Quinones, I am from Quito-Ecuador. Some of you already know me, since this is the second letter I am sending to the list. The work I am carrying out is related to the production of sexual seed on Oxalis tuberosa Mol. (an andean tuber) using honeybees for this purpose. Since I need the seed to come from specific crosses (avoiding any type of pollen contamination) I am working inside confined areas. Inside each compartment I put 8 plants, a nuc (of 5 frames), enough water and sugar solution. For the first month of work the bees made an excellent pollination work, producing a high average of seed per fruit. Neverhtless, the last week they stopped pollinating my plants. I exclude the possibily of weather conditions since they have been excellent on this last month. I am not feeding them with pollen because I want them to be in the need of searching for it, incentivating pollination. Maybe the stressed conditions to which my bees are submissed are affecting the queen laying rate, and if no brood exists then the bees will not have the need for pollen search. If any of you know which problems are the ones that are affecting my hive and how to solve them please let me know. I want to find out how can I incentivate again pollination activity under stressed conditions. I also have a problem with pollen contamination, my new crosses are getting contaminated with pollen from the crosses made before. My question is Which minimum of days should I leave my hive without plants to be sure that the bees are completely clean (without pollen) , and could a bee deposit all the pollen collected on one day ?. I will appreciate your help, since here in Ecuador this work is the first done. I do not have any bibliography or anybody who could directly help me, besides all of you !!! Greetings (saludos), Ana Maria Quinones -- Ana Maria Quinones Centro Internacional de la Papa P.O.Box 17-21-1977 Quito, Ecuador Telf. (593-2) 690-362/690-363 Internet: QUINONES@cip.org.ec ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MR MARK G SPAGNOLO Subject: bee moving! Hello: I am new to the Bee-L, and have been enjoying your recent discussions. Yesterday's correspondence on bee moving was interesting. I work at Kona Queen Hawaii. We move 2500 two high hives twice a year by hand! I thought you might add my experience and comments to the discussion. The terrain in Hawaii is very rough. We are forced to use 1 ton or 3/4 ton four wheel drive trucks. This limits our loads to between fifty and 100 hives. Moving 2500 hives 100 at a time takes quite a while and we are well practiced! We load all our hives just before sunset. Two guys to a load. The hives are not closed. When the flight stops (shortly before sunset) the hive entrances are smoked and all hives are loaded. The entrances face forward. Two strong guys can load 100 hives in less than half an hour. The loads are then tied securely and covered with a net. The trucks are then parked under the sprinkler for the night. Hawaiian night temeratures are rarely below 65 degrees, but the water keeps the bees in the hive. In the morning the hives are unloaded in their new locations. We try to unload just as the sun is rising. You don't want to wait too long! We have good success with this method, although I have had few disasters. One particular situation involving a long wait in heavy traffic due to a car accident comes to mind. Bees everywhere. I also remember being lost and driving around a sugar cane field in the rain looking for the location. Not fun. Mark at Kona Queen Hawaii document1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:01:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Kangaroo Island Can anyone give me information on an Email adress for the bee lab on Kangaroo Island. Thanking you in advance Dean Breaux ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:20:42 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Kangaroo Island -Reply David. E. Goble goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au (David Goble) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia. Regards, Robert Rice. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 20:55:27 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: bees needed Hello B-liners, We are looking for singles to purchase(doubles ok)to get our numbers back up after this rather nasty winter. It's still snowing in northern Michigan. If anyone can help, please e-mail us direct thanks, Kirk Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones email b-man@aliens.com when you get lemons, make lemonade.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:43:36 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Lack of Honeybees in Western Washington Hello All, I have been giving talks on bees this week and I have been getting a lot of feedback about the lack of bees on fruit trees in western Washington. I looked around myself and the problem is real. Now I wonderif other parts of the world that has Varroa has the same problem? We have lost many of our hobby beekeepers do to varroa and they don't want to start up again. This could affect wildlife that lives off of berrys and nuts. The real gold that the honeybee does for man is pollenation. We move the bees to certain crops and then try to find a place toget some honey.Honey prices are up for US honey and it should stay up. We need all the bees that we can get , so the beekeeper needs to make a living off of them so we will always have the bees around. If domestic honey gets undercut very much , we will all feel the affects of Mother nature. We need healthy bees in the whole world.Just take one second to think about an other % 50 lose of honeybees with beekeepers and no feral colonys. I have now looked at over 40 large apple trees in full bloom aboy 6 miles from my home over a 4 hour period. I saw ONE carniolan with a friend of mine.We did not see one bumbulbee either.This fall will back up what we see now. A note to domestic producers,you are selling more than honey and you need to get that accross. We need an educated public , so help educate them.Everyone can help and we have the hammer.We only want the truth out because it will last , I think this time the beekeepers have to show how much the bees do for everyone and not just honey.We need the people to support us and help themselves. We want packers to make money , but we did loose a lot of beekeepers and not many packers. Times changes and now its time to really support honey producer organozations and stick together, because it is easy to have John Q public look outside and see for themselves. I have been feeling bad seeing so many old time hobby beekeepers going down. I'm 54 and I have never seen a spring with so few bees on flowers all around.My trees can be herd 100 feet away and down the road 6 miles nothing. This may be a big experiment in nature. Best regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:00:57 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. > Ants, ants, ants. {SNIP} what has worked for you,etc..? Amdro. Logan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 22:08:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: User Unknow 550 ... User unknown Every time I post a message to the list I recive this message? Can anyone tell me why? can it be fixed? HELP! I am beginning to wonder if its operator error. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 21:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: User Unknow I get it too. Must be someone on the list with a bad address?? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 20:50:22 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Preferred Poison. Just to add to your note, try diesel, but don't light it. No ants in minutes. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET ---------------Original Message--------------- You wrote: > > Ants, ants, ants. Hi, if it's hives of ants like you get in south texas or florida or......gasoline works great....problems....it's illegal (you're pouring gallons of gasoline in a hole in the ground), it's a little dangerous (you then Light It!)....it kills the grass... but it often gets rid of the ants. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 20:19:13 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Plastic frame usage ---------------Original Message--------------- REGARDING Plastic frame usage I have used a limited number of Pierco plastic frames for a number of years in the honey supers, but never in the brood nest. I think your missing a great management tool, by not using them in the brood nest. They worked well for me after the first season, when the bees had to be coaxed into using them. They are very easy to uncap, either with knives, planes or automatic uncappers. The main drawback I see is that they are quite heavy compared with wood and beeswax comb frames. Actually, empty they are lighter than wood and wax, but when they are full of honey they are heavier, as they hold 15% more honey. Just a few notes I thought I might add. I would be willing to respond to any questions you might have. Ted Fischer TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET -- End --