Date sent: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:15:00 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9606D" To: W Allen Dick Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 07:39:21 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Tackling defensive bees << What is everyone's opinion on the best time of day to go into the hive? I have one hive that is somewhat aggressive about defending the home! I know that right before a approching storm is not a good time and that I should always take off my black watch.< Firstly, why suffer an aggressive colony unless you like an element of combat. Re-queen. In any case always check such a colony last in line. Checking it first can lead to it upsetting all the apiary. Ideally choose a time when nectar is flowing and the foragers are on the wing, for me usually in the early afternoon. There may be times when you need to inspect when no nectar is flowing. Even the best of bees can be troublesome at this time, quick to defend. Never prop the first comb out at the side of the hive, a common fault. Put it in a nucleus box and close down. Exposed combs and dripping honey will quickly set up robbing and then you are in big trouble. A weak sugar feed a day or two before the inspection has a calming effect, as does a weak sugar spray (never honey) over the top bars while inspecting. If you have neighbours, become aware of the rising note of resentment and the banging on the veil. Then is the time to close down quickly and await a better day. Over a lifetime I have seen many promising beekeeping careers brought to a hasty end because the beekeeper did not heed the warnings the bees always give before they boil over and start stinging in earnest. Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:06:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Hayes Subject: Re: honey extractor Comments: To: James Peterson James, My extractor is a used two-frame from the local univerity apiculture club. It's a Root "L-10" which is galvanized. My neighbors got a plan for making an extractor and are using a recycled HDPE food grade drum. About chrome--doesn't the process of chroming put out a load of toxics? I'd guess that the resulting surface won't corrode but the solvents and metals dissolved in acids need to be disposed of somewhere. +I'd guess that you could buy a new one for what it'll cost you to have the insides polished enough for chroming - unless you're going to take in that load of dust yourself. Also, you might think a bit about resident times for your processing. I usually allow the honey to settle in glass gallons - instead of being in contact with metals. The extractor gets propped up to drain out before the next days' robbing bees appear. You know, just heating up your well-cleaned extractor and allowing a very thin beeswax to melt over the surface seems a pretty convenient protection. Seems like it's a level of technology we can live with and let's hope it stays legal for food use. On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, James Peterson wrote: > I have only received two messages on my pleading for information on > what materiel that the law ( what number ? ) allows to be used in an > extractor. I have only taken " Bee Culture" for about a year , but > go to a University library ofter and peruse the other periodicals. I > have not seen any articles on this subject before. If any of you can > give me some ref. on the above subjects , I would appreciate it. > > Could I please poll the bee list on what material their extractors > are made of. The material that contacts the honey. > > I have thought of having my extractor chromed by the local bumper > chrome company. I thought of this because it is the chrome content > in stainless steel that gives it its corrosion resistance qualities. > > My bee equipment supplier (stainless equiptment) told me that there > are a lot of bee keepers that are not using stainless. > > Please help me make a decision. > > James Peterson Ph.D. > > If it is to be, It is up to me. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:26:57 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey At 04:05 PM 6/22/96 GMT, Eric Abell wrote: >I agree that 'raw' honey crystallized faster but this has nothing to do with the >shelf life unless it is identified as liquid honey. > >I have no objection to customers believing that crystallized honey is the >only way to know that it is raw and unprocessed but lets be clear that this >is not factual. Surely it depends upon what is meant by 'processing' but >given enough time most (and perhaps all) honey will crystalize. > >Eric Abell >Gibbons, Alberta Canada >(403) 998 3143 >eabell@compusmart.ab.ca > There will always be lots of discussions about "raw", "unfiltered" unheated" "organic" "natural" product. How about some definitions with these statements. These tend to differ from country to country, area to area etc. e.g. I'm sure "heating" has a different meaning in Mexico than Alaska. Specifically, could a few people define: "Unheated" (I presume it doesn't mean the product is held at absolute zero!) "Unfiltered" - there is some mention of "strained", does that mean filtered? if not what size of filter/strainer is considered the border between strained/filtered unfiltered/filtered? 10 microns? 100 microns? 1000? ...... Please use some actual _measurements_ in these definitions. How about some discussions on what is a "Natural" part of honey. Pollen? - the stuff that arrives with the nectar.... or the stuff that is incorporated into the honey from the extraction process (from stored pollen in the frames). Are both of these sources of pollen a natural component of honey? If "unprocessed", do these "natural" components extend to bee parts, brood residues etc. Cheers ---------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Bray, Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@netaccess.co.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:43:58 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Bucket Filter I accidentally deleted the msg. asking me what is a bucket filter . It is a stainless steel strainer that has expanding mounts that allow it to rest on top of a bucket or small tank. It has two grades of filters the larger of which is about the size of screening. This is the one I use. They are available from most bee supply houses. The reason I use it is because it is stainless steel and screening is aluminum and can carrode in the slight acidity of honey. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.att.net Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:44:30 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: honey extractor At 11:06 AM 6/23/96 +0000, you wrote: >James, >My extractor is a used two-frame from the local univerity apiculture club. >It's a Root "L-10" which is galvanized. My neighbors got a plan for >making an extractor and are using a recycled HDPE food grade drum. > >About chrome--doesn't the process of chroming put out a load of toxics? >I'd guess that the resulting surface won't corrode but the solvents and >metals dissolved in acids need to be disposed of somewhere. +I'd guess that >you could buy a new one for what it'll cost you to have the insides polished >enough for chroming - unless you're going to take in that load of dust yourself. > >Also, you might think a bit about resident times for your processing. I usually >allow the honey to settle in glass gallons - instead of being in contact >with metals. The extractor gets propped up to drain out before the next >days' robbing bees appear. You know, just heating up your well-cleaned >extractor and allowing a very thin beeswax to melt over the surface >seems a pretty convenient protection. Seems like it's a level of >technology we can live with and let's hope it stays legal for food use. > You can purchase a suitable paint from Kelley that is approved for use in extractors. It is much less expensive than a new extractor. Just make sure you follow directions to the letter and you will get good results. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.att.net Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:05:16 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey > "Unheated" (I presume it doesn't mean the product is held at > absolute zero!) Hive brood nest temp is about 95 F, so I would guess this is the max permissible for 'unheated'. > > "Unfiltered" - there is some mention of "strained", does that mean > filtered? if not what size of filter/strainer is considered the > border between strained/filtered unfiltered/filtered? 10 microns? > 100 microns? 1000? ...... Filtering required heat above what is mentioned above. Straining is coarser and can be done without heating. The mesh involved for each varies with type and moisture content and freshness of the honey (lack of granulation, thixotropic effects etc.) and thus evades exact definition. Howvever in practice, here in Alberta, the smallest mesh for straining without a lot of clogging is a little smaller than window screen. Filtering goes to microscopic levels -- to the point where it is possible to filter the colour out of unattractive honies. These are then put into industrial use. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:09:22 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: honey extractor > James, > My extractor is a used two-frame from the local univerity apiculture > club. It's a Root "L-10" which is galvanized. There is a lot of galvanised in use worldwide, and I can't think of anything wrong with it. On first use, a layer of honey attaches itself, and stays there until it is washed off. There may be very low levels of zinc migrating into the honey, however unless very little honey is extracted, and it sits there a very long time, and is then scraped off for use, rather than being washed off, the chance of it being detectable is very low. I'm not even sure if the form of zinc is harmful, since some vitamin/mineral pills contain zinc. Comments? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:03:34 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: JZsBZs Cell Cups A I just recived some #735 Base mount cups and was wondering if they have to have wax put in them or can you use them just as you recive them? Or do you have to prime them? With the center of the cup sticking down can you transfer the grub into the cell ok? Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank You, Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:43:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: JZsBZs Cell Cups In a message dated 96-06-23 11:28:29 EDT, you write: >I just recived some #735 Base mount cups and was wondering if they have >to have wax put in them or can you use them just as you recive them? You do not need to put any wax in them the bees will take care of them as is. > Or do you have to prime them? You can prime them if you wish but it is not required. > With the center of the cup sticking down can you transfer the grub into the cell ok? No, you must first mount them on a bar. Just use good common sense and everything will work out fine. We have used the JZBZ cups for years and they are as good as any. Dean M. Breaux Executive Vice President Hybri-Bees 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City, Florida 33525 USA (352) 521-0164 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 13:35:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: JZsBZs Cell Cups >A I just recived some #735 Base mount cups and was wondering if they have >to have wax put in them or can you use them just as you recive them? Or do >you have to prime them? With the center of the cup sticking down can you >transfer the grub into the cell ok? > Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. > >Thank You, >Daniel D. Dempsey >P. O. Box #5 >Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 >ddempsey@ddt.net We just graft directly into the JZ BZ cups without priming, right out of the bag with good results. We use the Chinese style grafting tool from Mann Lake. It has a little tongue that picks up the larvae with the jelly. Good luck! Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones email b-man@aliens.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:45:08 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey At 11:26 AM 6/23/96 +0000, you wrote: >At 04:05 PM 6/22/96 GMT, Eric Abell wrote: > >>I agree that 'raw' honey crystallized faster but this has nothing to do with the >>shelf life unless it is identified as liquid honey. >> >>I have no objection to customers believing that crystallized honey is the >>only way to know that it is raw and unprocessed but lets be clear that this is >>not factual. Surely it depends upon what is meant by 'processing' but given >>enough time most (and perhaps all) honey will crystalize. >> >>Eric Abell >>Gibbons, Alberta Canada >>(403) 998 3143 >>eabell@compusmart.ab.ca >> >There will always be lots of discussions about "raw", "unfiltered" unheated" >"organic" "natural" product. How about some definitions with these statements. >These tend to differ from country to country, area to area etc. e.g. I'm sure >"heating" has a different meaning in Mexico than Alaska. Specifically, could a >few people define: > >"Unheated" (I presume it doesn't mean the product is held at absolute zero!) > >"Unfiltered" - there is some mention of "strained", does that mean >filtered? if not what size of filter/strainer is considered the border >between strained/filtered unfiltered/filtered? 10 microns? 100 microns? >1000? ...... > >Please use some actual _measurements_ in these definitions. > >How about some discussions on what is a "Natural" part of honey. > >Pollen? - the stuff that arrives with the nectar.... or the stuff that is >incorporated into the honey from the extraction process (from stored pollen >in the frames). Are both of these sources of pollen a natural component of >honey? > >If "unprocessed", do these "natural" components extend to bee parts, brood >residues etc. >Cheers >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Peter Bray, Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand >Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@netaccess.co.nz >---------------------------------------------------------------- > Need I say more? This is why we need standards enacted. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.att.net Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:02:56 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Spear Subject: New hive and some questions ... Hi - It's a beautiful day here in southern California and I've just finished checking my only hive that was started from a mail-order package three weeks ago. Everything looked good - there were larvae and new bees exiting cells. I have a few questions tho' - There was alot of burr comb that I cleaned up. Most had honey but there was also a few cells with larvae in them. I never saw the queen (although I looked pretty hard) and after putting everything back together I began to wonder whether I could accidentally harm her and how likely that might be. I saw two very large clumps of bees and thought that perhaps that she might be in one of those. Has anyone damaged a queen while servicing a hive? How do you know if you have? How long should I wait before re-entering the hive? Also, I had put two Apistan strips in the hive three weeks ago, but these strips were from an opened package that had sat around for one year. I replaced those two strips today with new strips (expensive! $22 here in CA). Was that the right thing to do? ------------------ Richard rspear@primenet.com www.primenet.com/~rspear ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:42:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: honey extractor ********* My bee equipment supplier (stainless equiptment) told me that there are a lot of bee keepers that are not using stainless. ********* Our extractor is a 30-frame Woodman made in the 1940's. The tank is galvanized, and all other parts including the reel are painted steel. It works fine for what we need, and although I bought some food grade epoxy paint to seal it, I haven't gotten around to applying it in three years. Honey is acidic, and will eat away some metals, including the zinc that makes up a galvanized surface. If the zinc is gone, the underlying steel will rust. If you hose the extractor out whenever you're done extracting, then the metal won't deteriorate. I don't think you need to worry about heavy metals in the honey unless you store it in a galvanized container. Look out for lead soldering, too, and don't store the honey in contact with it. We use both stainless and galvanized settling tanks, but don't leave the honey in anything except the stainless one. With this in mind, some localities require health department certification on honey houses and honey processing equipment, at least for honey sold retail. Oregon, for instance, requires that all retail honey (except that sold from your house) be processed in a licensed honey house. They have this to say: "Equipment material shall be hard surface non-lead type finish, that will not permit reaction of the acid in honey. Exposed galvanized, aluminum, or iron allow honey to readily pick up lead, zinc, or steel ions. Steel or galvanized equipment may be protected with tinning or baked on lacquer." Your state Agriculture Department will have someone that can tell you what is legal where you live. The food grade paint is what most people that I have talked to advise. Walter Kelley sells it, or order it from your local paint store. Buy some food grade lubricating grease, too. Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:51:52 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: JZsBZs Cell Cups Thanks to all that replayed to my request. I do have another question. Do you reuse the cups and how do you clean them after they have been used? Thanks,again Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:37:35 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Fact of Life Hello All, I have been having a hard time staying away from some of the shots taken at some researchers.We are not perfect and we do protect our rice bowl.We are very blessed with the quality of researchers we have on honeybees through out the world. I can find something wrong with everything. We go nowhere with negative. We support the positive and grow with it.We beekeepers have a lot on our plates right now.We need to find as much support as we can for all of the researchers. In fighting is a waist of energy and resources. After writting back and forth to some of the researchers over the last few months , has me feeling better now then when I started on this list. Beekeepers are not the only ones that love the honeybee. If one person helps a hobby beekeeper to get started again after a loss do to the might it is a good step in the right direction. I have written a letter latley , that was not very friendly to a person who needed a wake up call.The people on this list are interested in helping the honey bee. She needs all of our help and we need to do it together.June 1996 ABJ has some very good info in it about the mites anda look at changes in the law to help out researchers get new stock.I look at researchers as a product of our educational system. If we can't trust them then we need to do a better job at the process of there education.When you are at the edge of dicovery and walking in unknown territory , you take educated chances. If you don't, you don't go forward. In my own life I took chances and I did things with my people that others were afraid to do.We had a tight team and the results were positive and we had fun in the process.If I was given a negative person, I would take them on a walk and we would discuss newtons 3rd. law.What was going to fall on his head was not an apple.Then I would look for every positive thing that the person would do and pat them on the back for it. Positive reinforcement and I have seen some wonderful changes and I have had two failures. We don't need to bat around the 10% which we will always have. They should be done one on one. We need every positive step foreward that we can get.I would love to see no chemicals u sed in the hives for the mite. It will come , but it is not around the corner. We need the public to know the truth about the mite problem. This could turn into a bigger problem if we don't get together and support each other.This puts us to the test. Many beekeepers have gone under and will not start back up again. I don't want us to loose any more beekeepers. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 17:02:23 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey I'm enjoying this discussion, particularly the comments re. honey heating. In 1991 I surveyed the existing standards for organic honey (IFOAM, BioGro, Demeter), and the honey heating limits left a lot to be desired. In particular, the Demeter standard said that you couldn't heat the honey above 30degC during extraction and processing, which was more than a bit ironic since brood nest temperature is 34degC. The BioGro standard said you couldn't heat the honey above 35degC during extraction and processing. This would also cause a problem when you wanted to melt out drums. The good news is that even though you heat honey in hot rooms or chests at temperatures way above that amount, if the honey is allowed to run out of the drum (and the hot room/chest) when it becomes molten, it never gets close to the temperature in the hot room/chest. The bad news is that when Townsend and Adie carried out a temperature test on such honey in 1953, when the hot room/chest temperature was raised to the 57degC normally used, the molten honey running out of the hot room/chest was measured at 38degC, 3 deg higher than the BioGro maximum. The only standard which made sense in this regard was the IFOAM one, which allowed honey to be heated up to 40deg C during extraction/processing. It was still a bit of a compromise for large extraction facilities however, since it was below the recommended temperature for spin-float cappings separators like the Cook & Beal. This wouldn't be a problem with the new style cappings separators like the Cire-Press, which squeeze the honey out of the cappings. The final problem I identified in relation to honey heating for all of the standards related to retail liquid honey. For all honeys except those with a high levulose content, I felt it would be difficult to maintain a decent shelf-life unless the honey was flash-heated above the limits set in the standards. I haven't looked at these standards recently, so I don't know what changes if any have been made regarding heating. I also understand that there are American and European standards not directly related to the Demeter or BioGro standards. Does anyone know what limits those standards place on honey heating? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:44:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: now I'm really confused >Just yesterday, I asked for advice on splitting my colony that had several >queen cells. Well, I got some great advice from you all, was watching my new >little nuc improve with workers heading to and fro and my original colony still >looking prosperous. This afternoon., the original colony took to the skies. Yep, >I have ANOTHER swarm high in a fir tree.Meanwhile, the outside of their hive box >is coated with bees with their rears in the air and fanning furiously. What am I >doing wrong? Last season I lost my first colony to a late season swarm. I started >with a fresh nuc this spring that was treated for mites before I picked it up. >I've done everything I have read, heard and/or can think of to keep these gals >contented, and yet I've got another buzzing mob in my tree. I'm about ready to >can this here hobby and admire those who find success at it. Help! > Hi Marcia; First your confusion has been brought about by some people only perceiving your question, and responding with their own ideology. Any new queen that swarms is either unsettled in her surrondings, or there is some environmental influence that is creating the swarm to relocate. This is mainly from over crowding, or with all this unnecessary talk of bee parasites, there is too much chemical protection from these parasites, that are most surely, poor decision management.(It is a poor beekeeper that blames his/her bees). As the only way to prove mite infestation, is to see them under the microscope. Your swarming points out that all new queens have to be clipped by yourself or your queen supplier, otherwise the same will happen again. I suspect that your bee boxes have been treated in an attempt to over come the net discussion of parasite infestitation, or the paint material fumes are disturbing your bees, so the hive workers are influencing the queen to suppersed. For more information see our Beekeeping web page at the URL; http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble/KiBees Regards from Dr Brian E Goble PhD Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:45:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Filtered honey [snip] > >Until there are some labeling laws enacted, there are no illegal labeling >but most of us small beekeepers are into a market that will can be ruined by >deceptive labeling. > >Frank Humphrey >beekeeper@worldnet.att.net >Frank Humphrey >beekeeper@worldmet.att.net > Hi Frank; Each individual Country and State has consumer laws, however on the International markets the point of sale is th legal requirements that the supplier has to meet, as any infringement of these laws means loss of your business, as the fines are from $100,000 for a register busines. In the International honey markets the terms natural, raw and organic are the terms to mean it is a natural product that has not had any additives introduced into its packaging or in simple terms no adulteration of the honey. The other side of the coin is that if the honey has any foreign matter, these same laws come into effect as the consumer has the right to claim that it has been tampered with or contaminated. As there are many law suites in progress under these circumstances, which no beekeeper can afford to be involved in. I am responding to your email, but am taking the time to answer all the beekeepers, that it is their responsability to filter their honey, and preserve their product, for all markets, and for the customer. Brian Goble PhD Ecology Research Centre Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:19:14 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: nokrian rivka Subject: an article Hello Bee-liners, I need some help locating an article from BeeScience. It's by: Danka R.G., Villa J.D. and Gary N.E. from 1993 and it was in BeeScience vol. 3 p. 16. I don't have the name of the article and the paper is not in our library. Can anyone help please? Please E-mail directly to me at: rebeca@post.tau.ac.il Many thanks, Rivka Nokrian, Tel Aviv, Israel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:53:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Doyle Subject: New WILDLIFE ECOLOGY Digest! Greetings, I am in the process of developing a weekly digest for conversation, thoughts, and general postings concerning wildlife ecology... To receive this digest, please send e-mail to: kingfshr@northcoast.com with the subject: "Subscribe to WED." Any questions can also be sent to this address... Let's hope this develops into a great resource for all! Thanks, David Doyle (kingfshr@northcoast.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:52:29 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey > In particular, the Demeter standard said that you couldn't > heat the honey above 30degC during extraction and processing, which > was more than a bit ironic since brood nest temperature is 34degC. > > The BioGro standard said you couldn't heat the honey above 35degC > during extraction and processing. This would also cause a problem > when you wanted to melt out drums. You have hit the nail on the head here. After 20 plus years of experimenting with repackaging honey, we have concluded that the _only_ way to package raw, unheated honey is by packing it once -- while it is still liquid and without filtering. This has been a real disappointment, because we have a customer base that is divided into those who want sparking clean honey and those who want it 100% natural. We finally decided that we had to offer two separate products: honey that is heated and filtered and honey that is strained only. The problem is that those who want it natural *can* tell the difference. We have a German friend who wanted honey for a folk cure and he returned the honey we gave him that had been melted and repackaged (carefully -- at lowest possible temperatures) because it didn't work. The replacement honey which was from the extractor gate passed the test. There is a real conflict between the demands of the mass market, and the needs of real honey lovers. Of course this is a problem for those mass packers who claim natural raw honey, because they pretty well have to purchase in drums and repack using heat. Unless they receive it still liquid, they will have to heat it above hive temperature. As far as I can see this market is only available to the beekeeper or those who take early delivery in bulk and are prepared to package a whole years supply at once. Perhaps an alternative is to only soften the honey in a warm room and transfer it as a slurry, well below the 95F maximum. Packers don't want to admit defeat in this market, and try to cut corners and bend definitions. They fool the majority, but most aren't prepared to do what is required to produce the bona fide item. > The good news is that even though > you heat honey in hot rooms or chests at temperatures way above that > amount, if the honey is allowed to run out of the drum (and the hot > room/chest) when it becomes molten, it never gets close to the > temperature in the hot room/chest. The bad news is that when > Townsend and Adie carried out a temperature test on such honey in > 1953, when the hot room/chest temperature was raised to the 57degC > normally used, the molten honey running out of the hot room/chest > was measured at 38degC, 3 deg higher than the BioGro maximum. Precisely the problem. The* time *that the honey is at that temp, is a huge factor too. In batch processing, the honey has to be held in a vat waiting for the rest to melt and fill the tub. > > The only standard which made sense in this regard was the IFOAM one, > which allowed honey to be heated up to 40deg C during > extraction/processing. It was still a bit of a compromise for > large extraction facilities however, since it was below the > recommended temperature for spin-float cappings separators like the > Cook & Beal. This wouldn't be a problem with the new style cappings > separators like the Cire-Press, which squeeze the honey out of the > cappings. I believe that the spin float can operate at lower temps -- low enough to keep below 95F, but the heat exchangers used have surfaces that necessarily have to be several degrees (usually more) above the allowable, and thus some of the honey that is in contact is overheated by these standards, even while the mass temp remains in the ballpark. The spinfloat also exposes the honey to and incorporates air which can produce changes that are undesirable. > The final problem I identified in relation to honey heating for all > of the standards related to retail liquid honey. For all honeys > except those with a high levulose content, I felt it would be > difficult to maintain a decent shelf-life unless the honey was > flash-heated above the limits set in the standards. That is if the honey has to be liquid. In Canada, I believe that a large percentage of the honey sold is solid. Our consumers accept creamed and granulated honies. We sell *only* granulated honies except during extracting. Disclaimer: I am writing here only about the Canadian honies I have worked with. Admittedly there are some honies in the world that naturally stay in liquid state and for these the situation is completely different. FWIW. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:44:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey >I'm enjoying this discussion, particularly the comments re. honey heating. > >In 1991 I surveyed the existing standards for organic honey (IFOAM, >BioGro, Demeter), and the honey heating limits left a lot to be desired. In >particular, the Demeter standard said that you couldn't heat the honey above >30degC during extraction and processing, which was more than a bit ironic since >brood nest temperature is 34degC. > >The final problem I identified in relation to honey heating for all of the >standards related to retail liquid honey. For all honeys except those with >a high levulose content, I felt it would be difficult to maintain a decent >shelf-life unless the honey was flash-heated above the limits set in the >standards. > >I haven't looked at these standards recently, so I don't know what >changes if any have been made regarding heating. I also understand >that there are American and European standards not directly related to >the Demeter or BioGro standards. Does anyone know what limits those >standards place on honey heating? > Hi Cliff, The International recognised process, is to only heat the honey to 60 degrees centigrade. This is to prevent the honey changing from one class to another. These standards are only recommendations for the packers to use and a guide for the industry. Therefore to return the most money for your honey, a lack of temperature control is costing you money, and your good name as a good supplier of quality honey. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:22:24 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: International Bee Research Subject: Re: an article In-Reply-To: from "nokrian rivka" at Jun 24, 96 01:19:14 pm IBRA is the place to go if you want reprints of papers, books etc - we have got most of what is published round the world in our library. Its easy to access us - just email a request (we have to make a modest charge, chaeper for members though). Its easy to pay by credit card. Our librarian is Salma Zabaneh (she is very helpful, and doesn't bite - well not often!) Just email: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk We are here to help! > Hello Bee-liners, > > I need some help locating an article from BeeScience. > It's by: Danka R.G., Villa J.D. and Gary N.E. from 1993 and it > was in BeeScience vol. 3 p. 16. > > I don't have the name of the article and the paper is not in our > library. Can anyone help please? > > Please E-mail directly to me at: rebeca@post.tau.ac.il > > Many thanks, Rivka Nokrian, Tel Aviv, Israel > ************************************************************** * International Bee Research Association * * Please state who your message is for at IBRA * *============================================================* * E.mail : ibra@cardiff.ac.uk | Mail: IBRA * * Phone : (+44) 1222 372 409 | 18 North Road * * Fax : (+44) 1222 665 522 | Cardiff CF1 3DY, UK * ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:22:16 CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Nabors Subject: Re: Fact of Life Dear Roy, I could not agree with you more. Any society that does not move forward is going backward. There is no standing still. We have less than 50 researchers working on Honey bees in the United States now. As bad as things have been with declines in beekeepers and bee hives, the decline in reseach and reseachers has been more precipitous. If you want no reseachers working on honey bees o Best Beloved Beekeepers, you are nearly there. Shoiw me an uneducated society and I will show you a poor "financially challenged society. If you doubt that, get a map of illiteracy in the united states and another of the income level. The two will almost mirror one another. Without research, there is nothing new to teach. A proverb from the chinese: Those who look ahead 1 year will plant a garden, those that look ahead 10 years will plant at tree, those that look ahead for 100 years and beyond will plant an education. Thank you, Ray ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Fact of Life Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at internet-ext Date: 6/24/96 12:31 AM Hello All, I have been having a hard time staying away from some of the shots taken at some researchers.We are not perfect and we do protect our rice bowl.We are very blessed with the quality of researchers we have on honeybees through out the world. I can find something wrong with everything. We go nowhere with negative. We support the positive and grow with it.We beekeepers have a lot on our plates right now.We need to find as much support as we can for all of the researchers. In fighting is a waist of energy and resources. After writting back and forth to some of the researchers over the last few months , has me feeling better now then when I started on this list. Beekeepers are not the only ones that love the honeybee. If one person helps a hobby beekeeper to get started again after a loss do to the might it is a good step in the right direction. I have written a letter latley , that was not very friendly to a person who needed a wake up call.The people on this list are interested in helping the honey bee. She needs all of our help and we need to do it together.June 1996 ABJ has some very good info in it about the mites anda look at changes in the law to help out researchers get new stock.I look at researchers as a product of our educational system. If we can't trust them then we need to do a better job at the process of there education.When you are at the edge of dicovery and walking in unknown territory , you take educated chances. If you don't, you don't go forward. In my own life I took chances and I did things with my people that others were afraid to do.We had a tight team and the results were positive and we had fun in the process.If I was given a negative person, I would take them on a walk and we would discuss newtons 3rd. law.What was going to fall on his head was not an apple.Then I would look for every positive thing that the person would do and pat them on the back for it. Positive reinforcement and I have seen some wonderful changes and I have had two failures. We don't need to bat around the 10% which we will always have. They should be done one on one. We need every positive step foreward that we can get.I would love to see no chemicals u sed in the hives for the mite. It will come , but it is not around the corner. We need the public to know the truth about the mite problem. This could turn into a bigger problem if we don't get together and support each other.This puts us to the test. Many beekeepers have gone under and will not start back up again. I don't want us to loose any more beekeepers. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:54:11 UT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Han-Hsien Tuan Subject: Position for beekeeper manager in Florida If anyone is interested in managing a large beekeeping operation (over 1500 beehives) in Florida, please respond. Thank you very much. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:52:06 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: now I'm really confused I appreciate your help. Actually, the boxes have not been treated for parasites this summer although the original nuc was before I bought it, and I painted my hive boxes last year with latex paint so as not to seal them completely or produce fumes. I am not alone with swarm problems in Portland. We've had lots of rain and thunder storms lately and in fact the swarm is still in my fir tree getting soaked. Showers and thunderstorms are predicted for the rest of the week. Maybe the weather this year has contributed to swarming. As for room, I've had folks say give them plenty and others say keep them congested. After three swarms, I'm leaning toward giving them extra room. I have a mixture of frames in the upper box, from partially filled nectar and honey frames to new foundation. I keep reading, experimenting and asking beekeepers. I did this as an experiment, so I'll learn from it. I'll take a look at your web page. Thanks. At 06:44 PM 6/24/96 -0400, you wrote: >>Just yesterday, I asked for advice on splitting my colony that had several >>queen cells. Well, I got some great advice from you all, was watching my new >>little nuc improve with workers heading to and fro and my original colony still >>looking prosperous. This afternoon., the original colony took to the skies. Yep, >>I have ANOTHER swarm high in a fir tree.Meanwhile, the outside of their hive box >>is coated with bees with their rears in the air and fanning furiously. What am I >>doing wrong? Last season I lost my first colony to a late season swarm. I >>started with a fresh nuc this spring that was treated for mites before I picked >>it up. I've done everything I have read, heard and/or can think of to keep these >>gals contented, and yet I've got another buzzing mob in my tree. I'm about ready >>to can this here hobby and admire those who find success at it. Help! >> >Hi Marcia; > > First your confusion has been brought about by some people only >perceiving your question, and responding with their own ideology. > > Any new queen that swarms is either unsettled in her surrondings, or >there is some environmental influence that is creating the swarm to relocate. > > This is mainly from over crowding, or with all this unnecessary talk >of bee parasites, there is too much chemical protection from these >parasites, that are most surely, poor decision management.(It is a poor >beekeeper that blames his/her bees). As the only way to prove mite >infestation, is to see them under the microscope. > > Your swarming points out that all new queens have to be clipped by >yourself or your queen supplier, otherwise the same will happen again. > > I suspect that your bee boxes have been treated in an attempt to >over come the net discussion of parasite infestitation, or the paint >material fumes are disturbing your bees, so the hive workers are influencing the >queen to suppersed. > > For more information see our Beekeeping web page at the URL; > > http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble/KiBees > > Regards from Dr Brian E Goble PhD >Thanks from : > goble@eastend.com.au > http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble > degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) > American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:23:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Kemp Subject: A wild hive!! Hi Group, I am a second year bee-keeper with a challenge. I lost all of my bees this spring to the woes of beekeepers and am looking for other hives to start over. You all were most helpful on the last question and I thought I would try again. I shoe horses also and tell all of my customers to tell me if they see any wild hives or swarms. I got one of those great calls that someone found one and I went to see it. The very large hive is in a locust stump, 4-5 feet tall and 3 feet in diameter. I guess about half of the bottom of the stump is sound and half rotten. The bees are going into the root area and the hive appears to be partly below ground level, partly above. Since the mites, etc have killed about everything around here, this would be a resistant hive and it would be good to save the queen. I can leave the hive where it is as long as I want, but they want a reasonable time for it to be moved. Next spring is OK with them. Here is the plan I have devised; tell me if it sounds good. 1. Suit up completely and saw off slices of the stump until I expose the hive. This will give me a flat table on which to mound the rest. 2. Punch a hole through the honey at the top to give a clear path from the hive to air above. 3. Put a brood chamber on top with drawn out comb and put in Apistan and some of these grease patties to protect the hive from parisites. They are still in danger of being killed from the mites eve though they are alive now. 4. Next spring go out and tend the brood chamber weekly (?) till I see the queen up in the brood chamber. Then put a queen excluder below the brood chamber to keep her up there. Let the hive develop and move it when the brood is laid enough to give her a good hive. 5. I could probably then move her during the day and put a new brood chamber there with another queen in it for the existing workers to follow for another hive. 6. The last step would be to cut up the stump and see whether there is any brood down there, especially with queen cells and take everything out for the farmer to be happy. How does this plan sound? Are my ideas about the queen being a source of resistant bees accurate? Any suggestions? Thanks, ################## >From the desk of, Bruce Kemp bkemp@swva.net 1-540-626-4677 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:40:52 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: now I'm really confused Maybe it is the hive box? How old is the hive? Did you paint or stain it recently? If so, with what and when? Did you treat the inside of the hive (boxes, bottom board, inner cover, outer cover) or the frames or foundation with anything? If so what? Sometimes the bees just don't like the accomodations due to residual chemical odors. Jim Moore moore@aiag.enet.dec.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:53:01 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: now I'm really confused Nothing. This is a mix of old and new equipment, but none of it was treated with anything this season. I've done everything I can think of shy of clipping queen wings, which I find distasteful. I just looked out and now there is another swarm in the same tree, this one much larger. I think I'm giving up beekeeping. At 01:40 PM 6/24/96 EDT, you wrote: > Maybe it is the hive box? How old is the hive? >Did you paint or stain it recently? If so, with what >and when? Did you treat the inside of the hive (boxes, >bottom board, inner cover, outer cover) or the frames >or foundation with anything? If so what? > > Sometimes the bees just don't like the >accomodations due to residual chemical odors. > > Jim Moore > moore@aiag.enet.dec.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Hayes Subject: Re: A wild hive!! In-Reply-To: <199606241623.MAA06157@ctc.swva.net> Great find Bruce Kemp! The feral bees are mostly extinct here in eastern Pa. and I hope that you can succeed in preserving this possiby resistant genetic variety . If you can persuade the colony to bring the queen out and start laying brood in a hive box you might be able to produce queens from this. If so, I'm sure alot of us on this list would be willing to re-queen and help test out & multiply the strain. I'd suggest the following: 1) close down the opening in the tree to one which can be covered with an inverted cone of window screening sticking out about a foot and 1/2 or so with the end of the cone reduced to allow the exit of a bee at a time. 2) securely position a full depth brood super ( with full covers, base etc.) high enough to be nearer to the old opening than the new opening at the end of that inverted cone of screen. You might make a little 2x4 platform first. 3) into the hive body you can put fully drawn out comb that's had a freezer treatment to extinguish mites and some new regular foundation too. 4) wait a day as the field bees start to fill up the new hive and then 5) over the next few days stuff foam in the opening, inpect & occaisionally start taking away the honey collected and the bees to another location. 6) be careful to notice when the new hive has started to have a population of young nurse bees and when the comb starts to be layed out with areas for the queen to lay eggs! If there's eggs visible, she may still be in the new box! If so, keep the opening stuffed with the foam rubber and move it to the new location to confirm ( don't forget to replace with another new equipment set-up). Feed them while confirming. 7) If the original hive spins off a new queen - try to capture it in the same way. Repeat this several times - as long as the farmer lets you get away with it. *Remember: it's easier to get forgiveness than permission! 8) Next year (late) when you begin the destructive techniques with the chain saw, seek out whole brood areas to cut into frame-sized rectangles held into open frames with 3 or so good rubber bands ( cut out so they'll be oriented the same way top to bottom, etc. as possible ) Each brood hive frame you dig out could either have the queen or brood enough for your young gals to make one or more new queens for nucs. I hope someone else on this list has some good thoughts. best wishes, Bob Hayes _______________________________ On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Bruce Kemp wrote: > Hi Group, > > I am a second year bee-keeper with a challenge. I lost all of my bees this > spring to the woes of beekeepers and am looking for other hives to start over. > You all were most helpful on the last question and I thought I would try again. > > I shoe horses also and tell all of my customers to tell me if they see any > wild hives or swarms. I got one of those great calls that someone found one and > I went to see it. The very large hive is in a locust stump, 4-5 feet tall and 3 > feet in diameter. I guess about half of the bottom of the stump is sound and > half rotten. The bees are going into the root area and the hive appears to be > partly below ground level, partly above. Since the mites, etc have killed about > everything around here, this would be a resistant hive and it would be good to > save the queen. I can leave the hive > where it is as long as I want, but they want a reasonable time for it to be > moved. Next spring is OK with them. Here is the plan I have devised; tell me > if it sounds good. > > 1. Suit up completely and saw off slices of the stump until I expose > the hive. This will give me a flat table on which to mound the rest. 2. > Punch a hole through the honey at the top to give a clear path from the > hive to air above. 3. Put a brood chamber on top with drawn out > comb and put in Apistan and some of these grease patties to protect the > hive from parisites. They are still in danger of being killed from the > mites eve though they are alive now. 4. Next spring go out and tend the > brood chamber weekly (?) till I see the queen up in the brood chamber. > Then put a queen excluder below the brood chamber to keep her up there. > Let the hive develop and move it when the brood is laid enough to give > her a good hive. 5. I could probably then move her during the day and put a > new brood chamber there with another queen in it for the existing > workers to follow for another hive. 6. The last step would be to cut up the > stump and see whether there is any brood down there, especially with > queen cells and take everything out for the farmer to be happy. > > How does this plan sound? > Are my ideas about the queen being a source of resistant bees accurate? > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > ################## > >From the desk of, > > Bruce Kemp > bkemp@swva.net > 1-540-626-4677 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:09:25 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: honey standards I am looking for a current summary of international honey standards, or a compendium of standards issued by the FAO, EU, or FDA. Can anyone lead me in that direction? I have copies of the standard reference books, but am looking for up to date information. Bill Lord Louisburg, NC, USA -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:12:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: honey packing equipment I am looking for information on automated honey packing equipment. Information from vendors would be welcome. I will be working with a company in Eastern Europe that is packing about 200 metric tons per month into 500 gram and 1 kilo containers. Any information appreciated. Bill Lord Louisburg, NC, USA -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:28:59 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: Filtered honey At 10:45 PM 6/24/96 +0000, you wrote: > [snip] >> >>Until there are some labeling laws enacted, there are no illegal labeling >>but most of us small beekeepers are into a market that will can be ruined by >>deceptive labeling. >> >>Frank Humphrey >>beekeeper@worldnet.att.net >>Frank Humphrey >>beekeeper@worldmet.att.net >> >Hi Frank; > > Each individual Country and State has consumer laws, however on the >International markets the point of sale is th legal requirements that the >supplier has to meet, as any infringement of these laws means loss of your >business, as the fines are from $100,000 for a register busines. > > In the International honey markets the terms natural, raw and >organic are the terms to mean it is a natural product that has not had any >additives introduced into its packaging or in simple terms no adulteration >of the honey. > > The other side of the coin is that if the honey has any foreign >matter, these same laws come into effect as the consumer has the right to >claim that it has been tampered with or contaminated. As there are many law >suites in progress under these circumstances, which no beekeeper can afford >to be involved in. > > I am responding to your email, but am taking the time to answer all >the beekeepers, that it is their responsability to filter their honey, and >preserve their product, for all markets, and for the customer. > > Brian Goble PhD > Ecology Research Centre >Thanks from : > goble@eastend.com.au > http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble > degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) > American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia > Hi Brian You are missing the point altogether. By your definition I can heat my honey, then filter it to the point that it has very little color and no pollen, then label it as natural honey so long as it is not contaminated or adulterated. This is basically true in the USA. Some states are beginning to set some standards for grades of honey. My point is that under present law highly processed honey can be and is labeled as raw honey. That is the point. We have laws that carry stiff penalties for selling adulterated or contaminated honey. What we do not have are laws that define what is raw, or what is natural, what is filtered etc. This is what needs to be resolved so that the consumer knows what he or she is buying, real raw honey or a product that has been so processed that it barely resembles honey. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@Worldnet.att.net Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:28:59 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: New hive and some questions ... At 10:02 PM 6/23/96 +0000, you wrote: >Hi - > >It's a beautiful day here in southern California and I've just finished >checking my only hive that was started from a mail-order package three >weeks ago. Everything looked good - there were larvae and new bees exiting >cells. I have a few questions tho' - > >There was alot of burr comb that I cleaned up. Most had honey but there >was also a few cells with larvae in them. I never saw the queen (although >I looked pretty hard) and after putting everything back together I began >to wonder whether I could accidentally harm her and how likely that might >be. I saw two very large clumps of bees and thought that perhaps that she >might be in one of those. Has anyone damaged a queen while servicing a >hive? >How do you know if you have? How long should I wait before re-entering the >hive? > >Also, I had put two Apistan strips in the hive three weeks ago, but these >strips were from an opened package that had sat around for one year. I >replaced those two strips today with new strips (expensive! $22 here in >CA). Was that the right thing to do? >------------------ >Richard >rspear@primenet.com >www.primenet.com/~rspear > Hi Richard There is an old rule in beekeeping that has probably saved many queens. The rule is: Treat every frame as if the queen were on it. If you do this you shouldn't have to worry about injuring the queen. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.att.net Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:42:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Good News!! ---------------------------------------- Good News! I have just received a note that the beekeepers and farmers efforts were fruitful in keeping the Tucson, Arizona Bee Lab open for the next year at least. Details are not know but you can be sure the next issue of the beekeeping journals should have some announcements. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ (oo) (o-) (@@) (xx) (--) ( ) (OO) //||\\ //||\\ //||\\ //||\\ //||\\ //||\\ //||\\ drone drone drone/w dead drone blind drone after winking hangover drone sleeping drone seeing a virgin queen old.drone@beenet.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... That the still murmur of the honey bee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:22:38 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey On the subject of heating honey: One of the things that I have observed is that it is virtually impossible to win in our local fairs entering honey that has not been heat processed in the 150 F (65 C) range. The problem is crystals in the honey. To get rid of them, you must either heat the honey to the temperature range given above, or ultra-filter it (another raw honey no-no). Honey judging standards are supposed to encourage and reward a properly prepared product. Perhaps this is a case where they are not doing that, and the judging standards should be re-examined. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:37:51 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: news from the land of hops and honey Greetings from Portland-- Thought I'd pass along some fun and perhaps encouraging news. Portland, as I'm sure you ALL know is not only the Rose City and the home of mega-mildew and banana slugs, but it is also the reknowned microbrew capital of the continental USA. Tonight, while shopping in my nearby yuppy grocery store, I perused the local microbrew section within the cold beer case. I was astonished to find 8--count them EIGHT--honey beers from local breweries. To be sure, many were made with malt syrup and were only flavored with honey, but a number of them were made with the real McCoy! I am a home brewer myself and have brewed a couple of batches of fine stout and ale using 1/3 honey to 2/3 malt. I was tickled to see local breweries following suit and delighted to see an additional burgeoning market for honey. Hope it catches on!!!! Cheers! P.S. My sodden swarm still hangs in the fir tree, glowing in the late evening light. An intense downpour this afternoon failed to drown them. I've opened a cozy bed and breakfast for them, complete with sugar syrup feeder and a small sign that reads "Welcome Bees!" We'll see if they accept my hospitality. Thanks to all who offered counsel. I'm learning. I'm learning. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Re: A wild hive!! In-Reply-To: < In article <, you wrote: > I'd suggest the following: > 1) close down the opening in the tree to one which can be covered with an > inverted cone of window screening sticking out about a foot and 1/2 or so > with the end of the cone reduced to allow the exit of a bee at a time. > 2) securely position a full depth brood super ( with full covers, base etc.) > high enough to be nearer to the old opening than the new opening at the end > of that inverted cone of screen. You might make a little 2x4 platform > first. .... Isn't this the standard method to remove a "nuisance" colony from, say, the wall of a house, and it gets workers out but the queen is left behind and eventually dies? Not too useful if you want to propogate the colony. How do you get the queen into the hive body? I have a similar situation. Earlier this year I mentioned I knew of a colony living in a run-down abandoned house. When I went to check them this spring I thought they were dead, they probably weren't mite resistant anyway. This obviously killed any plans to get them. But I happened to take a look a couple weeks ago and there were bees there! Either they weren't dead after all or another swarm moved in. Regardless I'd like to see if I can propogate them. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:33:28 BST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: QUB Subject: Re: A wild hive!! On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:02:50 -0500 Robert Hayes wrote: > I'd suggest the following: > 1) close down the opening in the tree to one which can be covered with an > inverted cone of window screening sticking out about a foot and 1/2 or so > with the end of the cone reduced to allow the exit of a bee at a time. > 2) securely position a full depth brood super ( with full covers, base etc.) > high enough to be nearer to the old opening than the new opening at the end of > that inverted cone of screen. You might make a little 2x4 platform first. 3) > into the hive body you can put fully drawn out comb that's had a freezer > treatment to extinguish mites and some new regular foundation too. Just one important point here,..You cant get the old Q out by this method which is what is trying to be done! I'd put a box on top of the stump and wait until the Q is in it and laying, take the box away then close up the top of the stump and let the bees in the stump rear a new Q or.. as you suggested use a Q exclr if you want to remove the complete nest. > 4) wait a day as the field bees start to fill up the new hive and then > 5) over the next few days stuff foam in the opening, inpect & occaisionally > start taking away the honey collected and the bees to another location. 6) be > careful to notice when the new hive has started to have a population of young > nurse bees and when the comb starts to be layed out with areas for the queen to > lay eggs! If there's eggs visible, she may still be in the new box! If so, keep > the opening stuffed with the foam rubber and move it to the new location to > confirm ( don't forget to replace with another new equipment set-up). Feed them > while confirming. > 7) If the original hive spins off a new queen - try to capture it in the > same way. This will only happen if the original stump colony decides to swarm and since by this method you have removed all the field bees then swarming will be most unlikely :-) > 8) Next year (late) when you begin the destructive techniques with the chain > saw, seek out whole brood areas to cut into frame-sized rectangles held into > open frames with 3 or so good rubber bands ( cut out so they'll be oriented the > same way top to bottom, etc. as possible ) Each brood hive frame you dig out > could either have the queen or brood enough for your young gals to make one or > more new queens for nucs. I hope someone else on this list has some good > thoughts. best wishes, Bob Hayes > _______________________________ > Regards Phil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:53:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Filtered honey See the below link for a report of a task force of the Council for Agricultural Science and Technology (CAST) regarding "Organic Honey". While this is a bit off the line of discussion it does indicate what regulators could look for in providing guidelines for honey labeling. Denotation of honey quality given their definition implies that the entire process of honey collection, removal and handling is inspected, and regulated. To tap into a local market given the definitions put forth by this Council, make it nearly impossible in my area given the chemical basis for agricultural production. The raw, crudely strained honey markets well to the small crows demanding it. This group accepts the bits, cloudiness and early crystallization of the product. I believe that the truly Raw honey will continue to be a commodity produced and distributed by the hobbyists and small beekeepers. Due to the quantity and nature of handling volumes of honey, commercial producers will continue to require some level of heating and filtering to provide the longer shelf life and crystal clear, pure sanitized image that most Americans find desirous. What the optimum "amount of heat" required, minimizing deleterious effects, will remain variable because of the varied composition of honey from varied sources. Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) 02-26-96 APIS - Volume 14, Number 2 ORGANIC HONEY?--RECENT DEVELOPMENTS gopher://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:70/00gopher_root3%3A%5Bdatabase.api%5D96api02.asc Mike .-~~~-. / } / .-~ \ | } \.~~-.-~| . -~_ / \./ \/\ { O | ` .-~. ; ~-.__ __{^\_ _}_ ) }/^\ ~--~/-|_\| : : .-~ / /\_/^\._}_/ // / / | \~ - - ~ ( (__{(@)}\__}.//_/_____/_____|____\_______________ \__/{/(_)\_} )\\ \\--------------------------------- ( (__)_)_/ )\ \> Mike Griggs mhg@cornell.edu \__/\__/ Entomologist/Support Scientist HTTP://www.ppru.cornell.edu/biocontrol/griggs.html -----previous message snipped for brevity--- >Hi Brian > >You are missing the point altogether. By your definition I can heat my >honey, then filter it to the point that it has very little color and no >pollen, then label it as natural honey so long as it is not contaminated or >adulterated. This is basically true in the USA. Some states are beginning >to set some standards for grades of honey. > >My point is that under present law highly processed honey can be and is >labeled as raw honey. That is the point. We have laws that carry stiff >penalties for selling adulterated or contaminated honey. What we do not >have are laws that define what is raw, or what is natural, what is filtered >etc. This is what needs to be resolved so that the consumer knows what he >or she is buying, real raw honey or a product that has been so processed >that it barely resembles honey. > >Frank Humphrey >beekeeper@Worldnet.att.net >Frank Humphrey >beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:16:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Help ! Ants all over the place....... In-Reply-To: <01I664ZBZD2A8WXM6K@ptag2.pt.Cyanamid.COM> On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Mike Beluch wrote: > Hello Fellow Bee-L'ers > > I feel REALLY stupid right about now, but here goes: > > I opened one of my hives today, and lo and behold, the ENTIRE top of > the inner cover was white with ANT eggs, + or - about a ZILLION ants. Hi Mike- I got this tip from an old timer several years ago. He did'nt know why it works and neither do I, but it always does. Just place leaves (I use sumac fronds or grape leaves)between the inner and outer cover. Be sure to spred them over the whole cover. Next time you visit your colony the ants will be gone. Also works between hive bodies when on pallets. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:52:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little brood When checking my hives yesterday, I noticed that in several of them (the strongest hives) virtually all of the combs in the brood box are filled with pollen, in the lower boxes, and honey, in the upper boxs. There is a little brood near the bottom of the frames in the top box, and in burr comb between the frames. I had reversed the boxes in the spring. The bees are Buckfast and I have been diligent about putting on honey supers in plenty of time. Why has this happened? Is this cause for concern? There is a good honey flow going right now, I''m not sure what. What should I do? Should I remove some of the pollen frames, and put in frames with new foundation? I don't have any empty drawn comb. Should I try to get the queen back in the bottom box? Any comments would be appreciated. -Steve Phillips- -Perry, KS - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:59:29 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Re: now I'm really confused Marcia: Don't give up so easily. Think of it this way, you may be helping restore some of the native population. Myself, I like having a couple of hives. If I get honey fine, if I don't that's fine too. I just like having the little critters around. Besides, if you give it up, you will miss out on the daily BEE-L conversations. Hang in there! Al Needham Hobbyist Scituate, MA,USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:09:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: now I'm really confused Thanks Al. Things seem brighter today. I have only this one colony (now split in two) and having lost my one and only colony last year, it seemed I just wasn't cut out for this. However, I poked about inside my two little colonies today. There is one queen cell remaining in the new nuc, and I'll keep a close eye on them, as they are a tiny band of somewhat demoralized bees. But they are diligently caring for their remaining brood, so I'll watch for her to immerge. If she doesn't I'll combine them with the original colony. It too had a single queen cell and the queen was making her debut as I watched. Assuming each queen can dodge raindrops for a mating flight, I may still be in business. Meanwhile I'm still trying to tempt that big ol' honkin' swarm out of the tree. I am a writer, and if nothing else, this gives me some great material. My discouragement is in part because I am so invested in these little critters, I can't bear to have them leave me. Your encouragement makes all the difference. Thanks. At 01:59 PM 6/25/96 -0400, you wrote: >Marcia: > >Don't give up so easily. Think of it this way, you may be helping restore >some of the native population. > >Myself, I like having a couple of hives. If I get honey fine, if I don't >that's fine too. I just like having the little critters around. > >Besides, if you give it up, you will miss out on the daily BEE-L >conversations. > >Hang in there! > >Al Needham >Hobbyist >Scituate, MA,USA > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:57:20 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Q: Survey of tools used when working hives. I'm curious about what tools/gadgets are typically used by beekeepers, both commercial and hobbyists, when working their hives. NOT tools for moving hives, or doing honey extraction. To save BEE-L bandwidth please respond to me moore@aiag.enet.dec.com I will summarize the findings and post the results shortly. I'm particularly interested in atypical gadgets used. Number of hives managed: [ ] 1-5 [ ] 6-10 [ ] 11-50 [ ] 51-100 [ ] 101-500 [ ] 501-1000 [ ] more than 1000 Tools used from a beekeeper's toolbox: [ ] smoker - always [ ] smoker - occasionally [ ] smoker - seldom [ ] smoker - never [ ] hive tool, old curved style [ ] hive tool, flat style [ ] frame spacer 10 frame [ ] frame spacer 9 frame [ ] frame spacer 8 frame [ ] queen cage [ ] decapping fork [ ] magnifying glass [ ] microscope [ ] bee brush [ ] notepad [ ] pencil [ ] tape recorder [ ] personal computer [ ] bee veil [ ] bee gloves [ ] latex gloves [ ] no gloves [ ] bee suit [ ] boots [ ] ankle straps [ ] other protective clothing??? [ ] mirror [ ] gadgets??? [ ] ??? [ ] ??? Thank you in advance. With over 430 recipients I hope to get a good cross-section of resondents. Also if you include any gadgets, please explain the problem being solved and advantage being offered by using the gadget. Thanks again, Jim Moore moore@aiag.enet.dec.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:02:01 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: honey standards Try contacting the Canadian Honey Council Box 1566 Nipawin Saskatchewan Canada S0E 1E0 They ought to have this information, or tell you where to get it. Good Lluck EDW >I am looking for a current summary of international honey standards, or a >compendium of standards issued by the FAO, EU, or FDA. Can anyone lead >me in that direction? I have copies of the standard reference books, but >am looking for up to date information. > >Bill Lord >Louisburg, NC, USA > >-- >WILLIAM G LORD >E-Mail : wglord@franklin >Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu >Phone : 9194963344 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:11:02 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Volpe Subject: Re: Q: Survey of tools used when working hives. At 02:57 PM 6/25/96 EDT, you wrote: > I'm curious about what tools/gadgets are typically used >by beekeepers, both commercial and hobbyists, when working their >hives. NOT tools for moving hives, or doing honey extraction. > > To save BEE-L bandwidth please respond to me > > moore@aiag.enet.dec.com > > I will summarize the findings and post the results >shortly. I'm particularly interested in atypical gadgets used. > > Number of hives managed: > [x ] 1-5 > [ ] 6-10 > [ ] 11-50 > [ ] 51-100 > [ ] 101-500 > [ ] 501-1000 > [ ] more than 1000 > > > Tools used from a beekeeper's toolbox: > > [ ] smoker - always > [x ] smoker - occasionally > [ ] smoker - seldom > [ ] smoker - never > > [x ] hive tool, old curved style > [ ] hive tool, flat style > > [ ] frame spacer 10 frame > [ ] frame spacer 9 frame > [x ] frame spacer 8 frame > > [ ] queen cage > > [ ] decapping fork > > [ ] magnifying glass > [ ] microscope > > [x ] bee brush > > [x ] notepad > [x ] pencil > [ ] tape recorder > [x ] personal computer > > [x ] bee veil > > [ ] bee gloves > [x ] latex gloves > [ ] no gloves > > [ ] bee suit > > [ ] boots > > [ ] ankle straps > > [ ] other protective clothing??? > > [ ] mirror > > [ ] gadgets??? > > [ ] ??? > > [ ] ??? > > > Thank you in advance. With over 430 recipients I hope to >get a good cross-section of resondents. Also if you include any >gadgets, please explain the problem being solved and advantage >being offered by using the gadget. > > Thanks again, > > Jim Moore > moore@aiag.enet.dec.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:17:51 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Volpe Subject: Re: Q: Survey of tools used when working hives. Damn buttons!! Sorry bee-L, slip of the mouse caused a list wide post meant for the survey recipient only! John Volpe At 02:57 PM 6/25/96 EDT, you wrote: > I'm curious about what tools/gadgets are typically used >by beekeepers, both commercial and hobbyists, when working their >hives. NOT tools for moving hives, or doing honey extraction. > > To save BEE-L bandwidth please respond to me................. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: "Easy Loader"? Hello, All, I believe that's what its called (Easy Loader). I have a friend, who is a side-line beekeeper, who is looking for one of these, in good condition and for a reasonable price. He doesn't want to buy a brand new one. He doesn't have a computer or Internet access, so he asked me to put this call out for him. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, it's, basically, a motorized hand-truck (us Texans call 'em "dollies"). From what I understand, there are two kinds. One has just the motor that drives the wheels and the other has forks that lift also. He wants responses from anyone wanting to get rid of either kind. If you want to get rid of yours, or know someone who does, e-mail me at my personal address (Bkeeper1@why.net). PLEASE, don't reply back to this list. Several people have specifically asked to be e-mailed personally and the list is always swamped with replies, anyway. Please, pay attention to the address that you're sending the e-mail to and don't just use the default address that the reply function brings up. Thanks. Cheers, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:54:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Brian G. Merrill" Subject: Package order refund Comments: To: Steve Pearce Hello Bee-L, I'd like to get everyone's consensus on what is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a refund after an order for package bees is cancelled. I ordered 30 packages of bees from Smokey Mountain Bee Company on Feb. 12, 1996 after corresponding with David Winters via e-mail (smokeybees@ilinkgn.net) on the Internet. Based on their requirements, on Feb. 13 I sent them a check for 25% of the order ($250) to book the order for shipment during the first week of May. Early in April I received a letter from Smokey Mountain confirming my order, informing me that final payment must be received by April 15 and that the order was scheduled to be shipped May 6, 1996. I had sent the payment on April 8, prior to receiving the letter (This check cleared my bank 4/16/96). May 9, expecting the packages to arrive, I called Smokey Mountain. I was told by the women that answered that shipments of packages were at least 2 weeks behind and that her husband and son were still in Florida. She couldn't give me any additional information and advised that I call back in a few days. I called Smokey Mountain again on May 16 and 17, leaving messages each time on their answering machine asking that they call and provide me with information. I also sent another e-mail on May 14 asking for a new ship date since I had plans to be away for a few days at the end of May. David Winters called me late at night on May 17, indicating that he planned to split-ship my packages, the first for May 27 and the rest June 3. Since I was to be away the first week, David agreed to ship all the bees on June 3. On June 6, 1996, I again called Smokey Mountain since the expected packages had not arrived. Since noone answered the telephone, I left a message. I again called on June 7 and June 8 as well as sending e-mail messages. Late June 8 I sent e-mail to cancel the order and send a refund for the total amount of the order. Early the next morning I received a response to the e-mail asking for cancel confirmation. I promptly responded to confirm the cancellation and asked that a refund be sent. With no refund check received, I e-mailed a message to Smokey Mountain on June 18 to remind them to send me a refund check. As of today, June 25, I still have not received a refund check or any acknowledgement of my earlier messages. A bit more that two weeks has elapsed since the order was cancelled. Smokey Mountain has had the full payment for the 30 packages since early April. What is a reasonable amount of time to wait before I take further steps in pursueing the refund. Thanks in advance for your responses...and if you do business with Smokey Mountain or know these people, maybe you could encourage them to send my refund. Thanks Brian G. Merrill Brian G. Merrill bmerrill@ns.moran.com Ellie Bee Apiaries 61 Calumet St. Depew, NY 14043 USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:01:40 -0500 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey Construction Subject: Re: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little brood STEVE PHILLIPS wrote: > > When checking my hives yesterday, I noticed that in several of them (the > strongest hives) virtually all of the combs in the brood box are filled with > pollen, in the lower boxes, and honey, in the upper boxs. There is a little > brood near the bottom of the frames in the top box, and in burr comb between the > frames. > > I had reversed the boxes in the spring. The bees are Buckfast and I > have been diligent about putting on honey supers in plenty of time. > > Why has this happened? Is this cause for concern? There is a good > honey flow going right now, I''m not sure what. > > What should I do? Should I remove some of the pollen frames, and put in > frames with new foundation? I don't have any empty drawn comb. > Should I try to get the queen back in the bottom box? > > Any comments would be appreciated. > > -Steve Phillips- > -Perry, KS - Steve - I have had the same problem this year with some of my hives. Even tho the supers are providing plenty of storage space for the honey flow, the bees are filling up all the empty brood cells and making the queen honey bound. I didn't have any extra frames of drawn comb so I just extracted several deep frames that they had filled and set them back in the middle. It seems to have helped the situation. The weather here this year has been terrible. One day of sun then three days of rain. Back and forth. If you can extract a few deeps, it might help them out. My extractor is set up for mediums but was able to be very careful and extract the deeps one side at a time. Only blew out one frame. I also put in some frames of just foundation. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:54:16 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Re: Filtered, Unprocessed honey Thanks, Alan, for making clear something which I should have mentioned originally -- the various organic standards I referred to virtually necessitate the packing of honey straight from the extraction plant. This means that if you want an attractive retail pack with a long shelf life, you need to "cream" it. And it also means (as Alan says) that unless you have a really big work force, machinery and shed, you can only pack small amounts, since once the stored, bulk honey granulates, you wouldn't be able to re-melt it for packing and still call it organic. I'm interested in your comments, Alan, regarding sales of granulated honey in Canada. When I left Canada about 14 years ago, liquid packs made up most of the retail market. In New Zealand, on the other hand, virtually all retail honey was creamed. In the intervening years, there has been an increase in liquid packs here, especially in specialty lines. Obviously there has been a change in Canada as well. David Goble says in his posting that "the International recognised process is to only heat the honey to 60 degrees centigrade." I think we need to be careful here, since as far as I know there isn't any internationally recognised standard for honey other than FAO's Codex Alimentarius (which I believe is just a recommended uniform world standard). The Codex doesn't set any standard for honey heating, since of course the only way you can tell after the fact whether the honey has been heated is to look at chemical changes in the honey itself. HMF and diastase are the two main constituents which are usually analysed. Both of these change in relation to both heat and time. According to the literature, you can in fact heat honey far higher than 60degC, provided it is for short duration, and not have a pronounced affect on either HMF or diastase levels. It is my understanding that honey is quite often flash-heated at temperatures up to 78degC in the production of filtered, long shelf life liquid retail packs. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:45:01 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: now I'm really confused >I've done everything I can think of shy of >clipping queen wings, which I find distasteful. I just looked out and now >there is another swarm in the same tree, this one much larger. I think I'm >giving up beekeeping. Oh, no! Don't give up! Keeping bees is like getting rid of fleas on a dog: try everything, then do it all again. And again. Sooner or later you'll succeed. You don't have to clip the queen's wings to keep them from swarming, and in my opinion, clipping doesn't do any good anyway...just delays the inevitable. By the time the queen is ready to fly, the bees are determined to swarm, and if the old queen can't do it, the first virgin to hatch will. You need to prevent the swarming impulse from occurring, not prevent the queen from flying. Make sure the brood chamber is not congested. If the queen has room to lay, the bees are less likely to swarm. In the spring, during swarming season, we make divides from our stronger colonies by pulling out several frames of brood and young bees and making a new colony with them. This usually makes the bees think they've swarmed, and they settle down fine for the rest of the season. Other possiblities: With a young queen, the bees are less likely to swarm. Stick some foundation in the hive to give the young bees something to do... sometimes that helps. As a last resort, go through the hive every 2 weeks and kill swarm cells--time consuming and liable to fail (we all miss a cell now and then)--but worth a try when all else fails. That said, sometimes I, "poor beekeeper" that I am, have to blame the bees. In 1994 (or was it 1993?), nothing we did could prevent our bees from swarming. Hives would swarm, and swarm again, and again and again, sometimes until they had swarmed themselves to death. Other beekeepers in the area had the same problem. It was just a great year for swarms. Maybe weather has something to do with it... maybe it's sun spots. Who knows. Good luck! Don't worry, next year's bees are bound to have a completely different problem. Shawna Roberts Gypsy Bees Hollister, CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Package order refund In a message dated 96-06-25 18:31:46 EDT, you write: >I'd like to get everyone's consensus on what is a reasonable amount of time >to wait for a refund after an order for package bees is cancelled. We would refund your money at the time of your request. No matter what you should get you money with in 30 days. We would have refunded your money with no hard feelings at all as it would allow us to catch up. >May 9, expecting the packages to arrive, I called Smokey Mountain. I was >told by the women that answered that shipments of packages were at least 2 >weeks behind and that her husband and son were still in Florida. She >couldn't give me any additional information and advised that I call back in >a few days. >I called Smokey Mountain again on May 16 and 17, leaving messages each time >on their answering machine asking that they call and provide me with >information. I also sent another e-mail on May 14 asking for a new ship >date since I had plans to be away for a few days at the end of May. >Brian G. Merrill To all whom it may concern, The Bussiness of raising Queens and Packages is a tough one, bad weather, mites, and the stock desired, have made the queen and package bee bussiness more unreliable as ever. I do not conduct bussiness with Smokey Mountian but do conduct bussiness with many other Queen and package producers, I also run a queen rearing and breeding facility, and guess what we all have problems from time to time. I myself was set back this year when the United States Postal Service Lost, then killed, 200 Queens. As we do not bank any queens and only run about 500 five frame nucs, that loss was a two week delay for about 20 customers untill we could catch up. We only book about 60% of what we can produce.(when things go right we make people happy by having queens to ship right away and we can ship some orders early) The main problem is, we are dealing in a product that is not just sitting on the shelf. Having said that, I will tell you that I would have done the same thing, as you had I had the problems that you described. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:09:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Cessac" Subject: Re: Package order refund Comments: To: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" In-Reply-To: <960625201908_339550344@emout15.mail.aol.com> Hi Dean, I also ordered a queen from smokey mountain before I found out about your operation. I also sent email message June 17 to try to get shipping date, but have not received any response. It would be nice to get at least an apology for the delay. I still would like to get a queen from smokey mountain or my money back. From now on all my queens will come from HYBRIBEE. Best regards, Robert Cessac K-B Ranch Natural Beef 2362 St. Rt. O Higbee, MO. 65257 816-248-5201 rcessac@mail.coin.missouri.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:44:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Robertson Subject: Using old hives I have a chance to buy a couple of used hives from a someone. They both succumbed last winter. My wife is afraid of spreading any infestation to our new colony. How can the used equipment be treated to kill any mites or other diseases? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:58:58 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Home sweet home Humor me while I write the latest chapter in Marcia's affliction with hives. As you may recall I was whining about my third swarm of the season, and had two of them dangling in my huge fir tree. After days of dreary weather, this morning dawned crisp and promising. I could feel the energy in the air before I got out of bed. The fir and its two glittering ornaments were bathed in golded light and framed by deep blue sky. Mid morning I checked the status of my original colony and new nuc. The nuc had a single queen cell remaining and small but active work force. No sign of eggs so that cell is my best shot. In the original colony, as I examined the middle frame in the lower box, I spotted the one remaining queen cell. Her little royal head was poking out and she was getting a warm welcome from her subjects. I EVER so carefully placed her frame back in its slot and closed the hive. The weather was perfect for a bit of airborne passion. I hoped she'd seize the day. Mollified, I went inside and tried to get some work done. At noon, I gave in to temptation and again looked out the window for my bee football in the tree. It was missing! I stepped into the yard and the air was electric with bees circling and buzzing overhead. I tried to find a nucleus by listening for the most intense buzzing, but was hampered by ill timed airplanes and noisy farm machinery. So I had to follow them by sight. I ended up running across neighbor's yards, hurtling fences and crossing country lanes until I found the swarm circling over a barn four farms down the road. They grow Christmas trees on this land and I watched the bees circle for several minutes, then settle into a small, squat fir Christmas tree. I raced home, jumped into my suit and rubber boots, grabbed veil and gloves and the only supers available--two honey supers that I had set out yesterday with a full feeder suspended from the upper one into the lower. I had enough adrenaline pumping by that time that I tried to run down the road with all of this stuff and slopped sugar water all over my coveralls. By the time I arrived, I must have looked pretty scary and I had to negotiate with the 7-year-old standing guard in the driveway. After much explaining to both him and his mom, I headed up to the little fir tree and set the hive boxes down. The bees immediately started lapping up the spilled sugar water and before long, most of them were in the box and the initial roar was down to a low hum. They are surrounded by thick white clover, and there they shall stay for now. So, what was once a swarming single colony seems to now be three colonies, two with freshly hatched queens, one eagerly anticipating her arrival. Thanks to all of you for not letting me give up. This has been a most amazing day. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Hayes Subject: Re: Using old hives Comments: To: Doug Robertson In-Reply-To: <199606260144.VAA00764@ns1.lr.net> Doug, Won't freezing take care of the mites? I think so - but I wonder what others will say. If no foul brood is present the bees should clean up the equipment admirably. A local commercial beekeeper blasts suspicious equipment with a pressure cleaner hot enough to soften the wax, etc. and not even 160F to cook the microbe and spores. He believably claims never to have problems with the used equipment he buys after blasting the few offensive pieces. This guy buys up lots of 100's of hives and says that the bees will do a lot to clean frames and hives themselves. The local states collaborated with a program to treat hives a number of years ago with ethylene but I guess it proved to be not cost effective. Ditto with CO2, I think it was tricky to maintain the concentrations long enough to kill off the pores of AFB. Go for it. They're assembled and primed. On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Doug Robertson wrote: > I have a chance to buy a couple of used hives from a someone. They both > succumbed last winter. My wife is afraid of spreading any infestation to > our new colony. How can the used equipment be treated to kill any mites or > other diseases? > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Kemp Subject: Re: A wild hive!! >In article <, you wrote: >> I'd suggest the following: >> 1) close down the opening in the tree to one which can be covered with an >> inverted cone of window screening sticking out about a foot and 1/2 or so >> with the end of the cone reduced to allow the exit of a bee at a time. >> 2) securely position a full depth brood super ( with full covers, base etc.) >> high enough to be nearer to the old opening than the new opening at the end of >> that inverted cone of screen. You might make a little 2x4 platform first. >Isn't this the standard method to remove a "nuisance" colony from, say, the >wall of a house, and it gets workers out but the queen is left behind and >eventually dies? Not too useful if you want to propogate the colony. How >do you get the queen into the hive body? > I assume you didn't get her out. Yes, I think that would just deplete the brood of workers, I think. I read that post over and over to understand how it would get the queen out. I think he is advising to do it in the spring and then deplete the hive till the queen comes out also. My idea to cut a hole in the top of the stump would give her majesty a nice dark place to migrate UP into. I will read the rest of the posts to see if this is blatently against any rules before I proceed. Thanks for your input, ################## >From the desk of, Bruce Kemp bkemp@swva.net 1-540-626-4677 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:34:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Kemp Subject: Re: A wild hive!! >On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:02:50 -0500 Robert Hayes wrote: > >> I'd suggest the following: >> 1) close down the opening in the tree to one which can be covered with an >> inverted cone of window screening sticking out about a foot and 1/2 or so >> with the end of the cone reduced to allow the exit of a bee at a time. >> 2) securely position a full depth brood super ( with full covers, base etc.) >> high enough to be nearer to the old opening than the new opening at the end of >> that inverted cone of screen. You might make a little 2x4 platform first. 3) >> into the hive body you can put fully drawn out comb that's had a freezer >> treatment to extinguish mites and some new regular foundation too. > >Just one important point here,..You cant get the old Q out by this method which is what is >trying to be done! > >I'd put a box on top of the stump and wait until the Q is in it and laying, take the box away then >close up the top of the stump and let the bees in the stump rear a new Q or.. as you suggested >use a Q exclr if you want to remove the complete nest. Thanks Phil, You are confirming what I thought about that post. I have done that to get the two hives I started over again with this year. I got them out of a tree in my front yard, but I had to put queens in each time I robbed workers. The queen is still in the tree and the hive is recovering. I wanted to do this hive in the stump differently and get the queen. I think your idea about the hive raising a new queen when I get the old one is great. I can work on that next spring and get two more hives. Then I can move the second hive in the day time and leave the stragglers a new queen in a box to get one more and to rob the stump of honey. Thanks, ################## >From the desk of, Bruce Kemp bkemp@swva.net 1-540-626-4677 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:16:33 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Home sweet home In a message dated 96-06-25 22:08:52 EDT, you write: << So, what was once a swarming single colony seems to now be three colonies, two with freshly hatched queens, one eagerly anticipating her arrival. Thanks to all of you for not letting me give up. This has been a most amazing day. >> Hooray for you! And talk about serendipity! I've enjoyed your posts. Thank you, and good luck Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:50:05 BST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michelle Doherty Subject: Re: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little brood On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:52:26 -0500 STEVE PHILLIPS wrote: > From: STEVE PHILLIPS > When checking my hives yesterday, I noticed that in several of them (the > strongest hives) virtually all of the combs in the brood box are filled with > pollen, in the lower boxes, and honey, in the upper boxs. There is a little > brood near the bottom of the frames in the top box, and in burr comb between the > frames. > The fact that there is little brood concerns me. Pollen is used for brood food, so, no or little brood means that the pollen will not be used up and stored instead. Back to the brood, is there eggs present? if not, it could be that the Q has been killed or gone with a swarm and the brood you see is the remainder of the sealed stuff. Alternatively, if there is a vigin Q she will mate and in most cases will not have begun to lay by the time the brood from the old Q has hatched therefor pollen is stored as it is not used. Then again, the Q maybe failing and the egg laying capacity has gone but it is likely that you would get supersedure here. Not an easy situation to solve, Sugest you make sure eggs are present first and see if its the same Q or and new Q just starting to lay. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:09:49 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Brood boxes all pollen and honey, little brood > Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:52:26 -0500 > From: STEVE PHILLIPS > Subject: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little brood > > When checking my hives yesterday, I noticed that in several of them > (the strongest hives) virtually all of the combs in the brood box are > filled with pollen, in the lower boxes, and honey, in the upper boxs. > There is a little brood near the bottom of the frames in the top box, > and in burr comb between the frames. > This description fits to a T the postmortem conditions I found last year in four populace and seemingly healthy hives that crashed suddenly in September. Never had I seen hives packed with so much pollen in the lower bc and crammed with honey in the upper. Old timers in my bee club attributed this to queen loss, without a second thought. I suspect that varroa was the culprit, but honestly I don't know for sure. I took a 75% hit last year (lost 9 of 12) which I attributed to mites/PMS. I used Apistan right after Labor Day, but the hives were deadouts by October 1. Phil mentions "a little brood", so we can assume the queen is still present. But based on last year's experience, I'd test for varroa and handle accordingly based on test results, although frankly I don't know what 'accordingly' is. Options include: I. If Varroa is present, treat NOW, don't delay. A. Remove All Honey Supers, ripe or not. B. Passive treatment: Use Apistan strips (as directed by packaging instructions) and hope for the best C. More aggressive treatment: 1. Extract some of the honey to get empty frames to put back in the brood chambers 2. Balance the honey, pollen and empty frames between the two brood chambers 3. Use Apistan strips (as directed by packaging instructions) 4. Possibly Requeen? 5. Split the balanced brood chambers into two hives a. Requeen one or both b. Start NOW to nurse the separate hives along so they will overwinter (feed, medicate, grease patties, Apistan) II. If Varroa is NOT present, follow I.C, skipping step 3 Now these are OPTIONS from which to choose that I would follow in upstate New York. I'm not familiar with bees and conditions in Kansas(?), so the advice may not be appropriate there. But the conditions described sound forebodingly like the conditions I saw last year prior to total collapse. I hope this advice is totally off the mark, but it may prove to be right on the money. Submitted for what it's worth, Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: Re: Brood boxes all pollen and honey, little brood -Reply Aaron, Thank you for your thoughts. I will check for Varroa immediately. I had treated for Varroa earlier, but I realize that doesn't guarantee anything. I agree that a collapse is likely, considering how little brood is in the hives. I got another message from someone else who told me that he was having the same problem. He commented that they have had unusually wet weather where he lives--one day of sun followed by three days of rain. We are also having a very wet year, which seems to have caused swarming in some of my other hives. I wonder if the wet weather somehow causes them to gather excess pollen or to store it in the brood boxes. Just a thought. What was the weather like for you last year when your hives did this? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:36:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Diana Sammataro Subject: Nosema spore photo Dear Bee Researchers, and others. I know I have seen a picture of the comparison of a nosema spore and a pollen grain in some journal/book/pamphlet. Please tell me I am not dreaming? Does anyone have a source and has seen this vision too? Thanks in advance, D Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue Wooster, OH 44691 NEW Phone: (330) 263 3912 Fax: (330) 262 2720 Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 00:32:25 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: Nosema spore photo At 06:36 PM 6/26/96 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Bee Researchers, and others. > >I know I have seen a picture of the comparison of a nosema spore and a >pollen grain in some journal/book/pamphlet. Please tell me I am not >dreaming? Does anyone have a source and has seen this vision too? > >Thanks in advance, >D > >Diana Sammataro, Ph.D. Hi Diana Hive and Honey Bee page 1101. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.att.net >The Ohio State University, OARDC/ Dept. Entomology >Extension Bee Laboratory, 1680 Madison Avenue >Wooster, OH 44691 >NEW Phone: (330) 263 3912 Fax: (330) 262 2720 >Email: Sammataro.1@osu.edu > Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 00:32:25 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: A wild hive!! At 04:23 PM 6/24/96 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Group, > >I am a second year bee-keeper with a challenge. I lost all of my bees this >spring to the woes of beekeepers and am looking for other hives to start >over. You all were most helpful on the last question and I thought I would >try again. > >I shoe horses also and tell all of my customers to tell me if they see any >wild hives or swarms. I got one of those great calls that someone found one and >I went to see it. The very large hive is in a locust stump, 4-5 feet tall and 3 >feet in diameter. I guess about half of the bottom of the stump is sound and >half rotten. The bees are going into the root area and the hive appears to be >partly below ground level, partly above. Since the mites, etc have killed about >everything around here, this would be a resistant hive and it would be good to >save the queen. I can leave the hive where it is as long as I want, but they >want a reasonable time for it to be moved. Next spring is OK with them. Here is >the plan I have devised; tell me if it sounds good. > >1. Suit up completely and saw off slices of the stump until I expose >the hive. This will give me a flat table on which to mound the rest. 2. > Punch a hole through the honey at the top to give a clear path from the hive >to air above. 3. Put a brood chamber on top with drawn out comb and >put in Apistan and some of these grease patties to protect the hive from >parisites. They are still in danger of being killed from the mites eve >though they are alive now. 4. Next spring go out and tend the brood chamber >weekly (?) till I see the queen up in the brood chamber. Then put a >queen excluder below the brood chamber to keep her up there. Let the >hive develop and move it when the brood is laid enough to give her a good >hive. 5. I could probably then move her during the day and put a new brood >chamber there with another queen in it for the existing workers to follow >for another hive. 6. The last step would be to cut up the stump and see >whether there is any brood down there, especially with queen cells and >take everything out for the farmer to be happy. > >How does this plan sound? >Are my ideas about the queen being a source of resistant bees accurate? >Any suggestions? > >Thanks, > >################## >>From the desk of, > >Bruce Kemp >bkemp@swva.net >1-540-626-4677 > Hi Bruce I recently had to remove a colony of bees from a tree in a lady's front yard. The opening was up about 15 feet. I first went up in the man list bucket and smoked the bees for about 10 minuets. Fortunately they settled right down. We then cut a log above the colony and removed it, we then cut the tree about 8 ft. Below the opening. I then started taking slices off to defineing the top of the cavity. The second cut was about 12 inches and about 10 inches was honey and bees. I nicked the slice with the chain saw and split it using wedges. At this point I got very lucky. The queen just walked out into the open right in front of me. I was so surprised I almost didn't catch her. Once I had her caged, I put her in a hive body with only foundation. I then finished splitting the log using the wedges so as not to kill more bees than necessary. When I got the whole thing open I removed enough brood for 3 frames and laced it in then put this in the hive with the queen. I then removed all honey, brood and comb from the log and started smoking the bees toward the hive. I then lifted the hive body and put a queen excluder between the body and the bottom board. I then released the queen into the hive, closed it up and set it across the split open log.. Within 1/2 hr., all the bees in the log were marching toward the hive entrance. By late afternoon, they had fanned enough that the field bees had found the hive and were beginning to come and go. I believe you can do something similar with your colony. Make a cut about 1/3 of the way through the stump as close as possible to the ground, Then make a cut about 1 1/2 to 2 inches deep across the top of the stump. Then drive splitting wedges into the cut to split the stump. The object here is to expose the nest so that the queen can be found. Once she is found cage her while the stump is being cleaned out. Find some brood comb that contains open brood. Cut this comb so that it can be inserted into an empty frame. Place the brood in the frame and wrap enough butchers twine around the comb and frame to hole it in place until the bees can attach it. They will remove the string. Once these frames are made up, put them in the hive body with the queen. Shake as many bees as possible into the hive. I would advise putting a queen excluder at the bottom of the hive body to keep the bees from absconding. At this point, remove everything from the stump. If you can, remove the stump. At this point the bees are very disoriented so put the hive as close to the old location as possible. The bees at the entrance will be scent fanning and will soon get the rest of the bees started into the hive. I think it best to get the bees as soon as possible for 2 reasons. First you can start treating for mites and other pest. And second, so that they can start building up and preparing for winter. This way you will have a good strong colony in the spring that will probably produce a good crop of honey. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.att.net Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 00:32:28 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr." Subject: Re: Using old hives At 01:44 AM 6/26/96 +0000, you wrote: >I have a chance to buy a couple of used hives from a someone. They both >succumbed last winter. My wife is afraid of spreading any infestation to >our new colony. How can the used equipment be treated to kill any mites or >other diseases? > Mites only live about 24 hours without a living host. The hives won't have any mites but may harbor other problems. I'm always sceptical about buying used equipment unless I know why the bees died out. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldnet.att.net Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little brood In-Reply-To: On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, STEVE PHILLIPS wrote: > When checking my hives yesterday, I noticed that in several of them (the > strongest hives) virtually all of the combs in the brood box are filled with > pollen, in the lower boxes, and honey, in the upper boxs. There is a little Steve- Don't worry. The bees know what they're doing. As the year gos on they will work down, and make the brood boxes heavier in preparation for winter. The cells with pollen will be drawn deeper and toped off with honey. In mid winter when brood rearing begins they will use both the honey and the pollen in those cells to feed brood. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Using old hives In-Reply-To: <199606260144.VAA00764@ns1.lr.net> On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Doug Robertson wrote: > I have a chance to buy a couple of used hives from a someone. They both > succumbed last winter. My wife is afraid of spreading any infestation to > our new colony. How can the used equipment be treated to kill any mites or > other diseases? Doug, You need not worry about mites in the used equipment. They die a few days after the last bees and brood. You should however be concerned about AFB. If you do not feel qualified to determine if the equipment is contaminated with AFB , get an inspector or experienced beekeeper to look at the stuff BEFORE you bring it home.> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:20:53 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little brood In-Reply-To: yOn Tue, 25 Jun 1996, STEVE PHILLIPS wrote: > When checking my hives yesterday, I noticed that in several of them (the > strongest hives) virtually all of the combs in the brood box are filled with > pollen, in the lower boxes, and honey, in the upper boxs. There is a little > brood near the bottom of the frames in the top box, and in burr comb between the > frames. > Steve- I should have read your message more carfully. I somehow missed the part "little brood". Since you specified "the strongest hives" are now plugged, my guess is that they swarmed. Since there was no egg laying (new queen not yet mated and laying) the bees stored honey in the broodnest. If you can give them 2 or three combs with some brood and some empty cells from other colonies. As someone else mentioned, last year this was common just before PMS symptoms began to appear. I think the scarcity of brood means more varroas per cell of brood as they compeat for reproductive opportunity. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:51:20 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Spear Subject: Re: New hive and some questions Comments: To: JCSchaper@aol.com Thank you, Christoph ... I always hope that nature will look after itself (as you say, the bees have been doing it for tens of millions of years!) and it is reassuring to hear from others that probably everything is alright. They certainly *look* fine, so far. I'll keep in touch. -- Richard rspear@primenet.com www.primenet.com/~rspear ---------- > From: JCSchaper@aol.com > To: rspear@primenet.com > Subject: Re: New hive and some questions > Date: Wednesday, June 26, 1996 7:33 AM > > << > >> > hi from germany, > just don`t worry too much and don`t disturb them too much, just let them do > it, they will be fine (its nature) > if you loose your queen for some reason whatsoever, and if there are open > larves (day old ones) they will build up a new queen out of it. Just make > sure there is enough of pollen and honey, thats the most impotant thing. Good > Luck! > Christoph Schaper, Bielefeld , Germany > mail: jcschaper@aol.com > It would be nice to hear from you if everything is ok! Good luck! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:51:27 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Gordon N. Stowe" Subject: Mite Solution: Queen Locating: Smoker Fuel I'm a 72 year old amateur beekeeper and for 25 years, had no problems. Suddenly I have lost both hives, one in Arizona and the other in Michigan. Both to Mites. There are on the market two treatments, possibly the same product, for treatment for mites. They are called "MITE SOLUTION" and "M-SOLUTION". Does anyone know anything about this stuff and I have some specific questions: 1) Is it effective 2) Is it safe to use during the honey-flow On another matter, I have tried numerous times to locate the queen, but have never seen her. Is there a tried and true system for locating the lady. None of the queens have been marked as my first hive in Michigan took care of itself for about 25 years including any requeening that may have been necessary. On another matter, I have a dificult time maintaining a good smoke and wonder what fuels are the most popular. The best I have come up with is some quite heavy burlap that smolders quite well, but there must be a better alternative. Thanks. Gordon N. Stowe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:30:11 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Stainless Steel Hi Every one: Stainless Steel is corrosion resistant because of the Chrome content in it's formulation. Type 316 has about 16.5 % Chrome, 12 % Nickle, 2.5 % Molybdenum, 2% Manganese, 1 % Silicon, 0.03 % Carbon in an Iron solution. A steel cannot qualify for the stainless prefix untill it has at least 10.5% chromium. The Chrome migrates to the surface during processing and forms an oxide that is extremly corrision ressistant. This is the same reason the bumpers on cars stay the way they do and why I wished I had the money to buy a stainless extractor. James Peterson Ph. D. Chemistry Teacher ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:48:26 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Electric Hive tool HI Everyone: After working hard to scrape propolis from boxes, I tried to heat the propolis up with a heat gun and got into more trouble. I then turned the heat gun onto my hive tool to get it hot and it worked much better. Does any one know of any available heated hive tools? James Peterson Ph.D. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:00:47 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Re: Now I'm really confused. I suspect that Marcia Sinclair is unlucky in that she is landed with bees which have a highly developed urge to procreate. If it is any consolation she is not alone with her problems. Bees here have behaved most erratically this season. Without man's intervention swarming is their only means of survival. When the urge is strong all the usual dodges, splitting the brood, adding foundation, piling on the supers, splitting the stock will not stop them. However, there is no doubt that the strength of the swarming instinct varies widely in different strains. It can be minimised by selective breeding from stocks showing reluctance to swarm. Many beekeepers depend on swarms and swarm cells for increase and thus perpetuate the swarming strains. Swarming can largely be prevented and ever since Langstroth introduced us to moveable combs numerous beekeepers have come up with their pet methods of swarm control. Only a regular routine check will reveal the presence of queen cells with the intention to swarm and action must be taken if you want to keep your bees. Merely cutting out the cells is not the answer and clipped queens only give the beekeeper a few more days to make preparations. Books tell us that the cells are capped on the tenth day, after which the swarm will depart. Thus a nine-day check will allow preventive action. That works for most bees but some have a nasty habit of ignoring our rules and leaving early. This has been most noticeable here this season when many swarms have left on the fifth or sixth day, making a mockery of eight or nine day checks. We have had a crazy season, weatherwise. Normally I would expect some 10% of my bees to make preparations to swarm. This year it has been 70% and this from bees that I regard as non-swarmers. We can only attribute it to the weather. May was the coldest for over fifty years. Bees refused to enter the supers and still insisted on swarming on the occasional sunny day, oblivious to the fact that the next sunny day was a week away and there was little nectar available. On the last day of May the weather changed and we entered the hottest and sunniest June for over fifty years. Now, 3-4 weeks later, nuclei are expanding at a fast rate and main stocks are demanding four or five supers. Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 03:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: midnitebee Subject: PERMA-COMB I am writing in regards to a product called perma-comb.The company, in their literature,state perma-comb is a one peice molded unit with its own ears.Cells are fully drawn on both sides at the normal cell angle. Perma-comb is wax moth resistant,and is fully drawn comb and not foundation,etc,etc,etc.The cost from 10-150 is $3.75 per comb,and the price can be as low as $3.00,per comb,from 1000 and up. comments on this subject is greatly appreciated. Sorry,about the duplicate post. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:28:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: calvete Subject: Re: Filtered honey SIGN OFF At 09:53 25/06/1996 -0400, you wrote: >See the below link for a report of a task force of the Council for >Agricultural Science and Technology (CAST) regarding "Organic Honey". >While this is a bit off the line of discussion it does indicate what >regulators could look for in providing guidelines for honey labeling. >Denotation of honey quality given their definition implies that the entire >process of honey collection, removal and handling is inspected, and >regulated. >To tap into a local market given the definitions put forth by this Council, >make it nearly impossible in my area given the chemical basis for >agricultural production. The raw, crudely strained honey markets well to >the small crows demanding it. This group accepts the bits, cloudiness and >early crystallization of the product. > >I believe that the truly Raw honey will continue to be a commodity produced >and distributed by the hobbyists and small beekeepers. Due to the quantity >and nature of handling volumes of honey, commercial producers will continue >to require some level of heating and filtering to provide the longer shelf >life and crystal clear, pure sanitized image that most Americans find >desirous. > >What the optimum "amount of heat" required, minimizing deleterious effects, >will remain variable because of the varied composition of honey from varied >sources. > > >Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter >Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) > >02-26-96 APIS - Volume 14, Number 2 > >ORGANIC HONEY?--RECENT DEVELOPMENTS > >gopher://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:70/00gopher_root3%3A%5Bdatabase.api%5D96api02.asc > >Mike > .-~~~-. > / } > / .-~ > \ | } > \.~~-.-~| . -~_ > / \./ \/\ { O | ` .-~. ; ~-.__ > __{^\_ _}_ ) }/^\ ~--~/-|_\| : : .-~ > / /\_/^\._}_/ // / / | \~ - - ~ > ( (__{(@)}\__}.//_/_____/_____|____\_______________ > \__/{/(_)\_} )\\ \\--------------------------------- > ( (__)_)_/ )\ \> Mike Griggs mhg@cornell.edu > \__/\__/ Entomologist/Support Scientist > > HTTP://www.ppru.cornell.edu/biocontrol/griggs.html >-----previous message snipped for brevity--- > >>Hi Brian >> >>You are missing the point altogether. By your definition I can heat my >>honey, then filter it to the point that it has very little color and no >>pollen, then label it as natural honey so long as it is not contaminated or >>adulterated. This is basically true in the USA. Some states are beginning to >>set some standards for grades of honey. >> >>My point is that under present law highly processed honey can be and is >>labeled as raw honey. That is the point. We have laws that carry stiff >>penalties for selling adulterated or contaminated honey. What we do not >>have are laws that define what is raw, or what is natural, what is filtered etc. >> This is what needs to be resolved so that the consumer knows what he or she is >>buying, real raw honey or a product that has been so processed that it barely >>resembles honey. >> >>Frank Humphrey >>beekeeper@Worldnet.att.net >>Frank Humphrey >>beekeeper@worldmet.att.net > Oscar Calvete Cerro Punta - Chiriqui Republica de Panama TE (507) 771-2056 FAX(507) 771-2104 E-mail calvete@pananet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:42:41 BST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: QUB Subject: Re: Now I'm really confused. On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:00:47 +0100 Sid Pullinger wrote: > We have had a crazy season, weatherwise. Normally I would expect some 10% > of my bees to make preparations to swarm. This year it has been 70% and > this from bees that I regard as non-swarmers. We can only attribute it to > the weather. May was the coldest for over fifty years. Bees refused to > enter the supers and still insisted on swarming on the occasional sunny day, > oblivious to the fact that the next sunny day was a week away and there was > little nectar available. On the last day of May the weather changed and we > entered the hottest and sunniest June for over fifty years. Now, 3-4 weeks > later, nuclei are expanding at a fast rate and main stocks are demanding four or > five supers. Sid, if its any consulation, the bees here are doing exactly the same thing although they seem to have settled down now. I recon the June gap is bringing them to their senses, Yes I stll have a June gap as Oil Seed Rape is practically non existant in North Down. Cheers Phil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:23:29 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Subject: No Brood = Queenlessness?/Varroa? Comments: To: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Gentlepeople: I have been following the thread on the BEE-L that concerns observations of little brood in the brood nest with a certain amount of concern. I noticed in one of my stronger hives last weekend that there was no brood, no eggs, nothing. In its sister hive two feet away I found a "normal" mixture of eggs, larvae, and capped brood. Pulled Drone Brood from that hive revealed no varroa (I pulled about 15 drones from one place in the hive.) My first diagnosis was that I was queenless in the hive even though the hive was behaving normally. It wasn't overly aggressive (even after I dropped one of the brood chambers), bees were flying and taking advantage of the weather and they had put up 4 full medium supers of honey. The thread being discussed concerning little or no brood in hives with advanced varroa infestation has me concerned that my first diagnosis may be incorrect. Although I treated with Apistran this spring according to directions, the spring treatment was accomplished beginning Feb 18 and pulled on April 1. Last year varroa became an issue for me in August but I had treated through the month of April and early May. Is it possible that my early treament this year has given enough time for the varroa to resuge now rather than August? or... How can one tell the difference between simple(?) queenlessness and advanced varroa infestation? I intend to reinspect the broodless hive this weekend and will do the apistran test for varroa unless I see that all is normal. Could those of you who experienced crashes last year remember if you noticed any signs of broodlessness prior to the crash? Thanks to all of you. I have learned more in the past year "listening in" on the List than I had in the previous three years. Keep up the discussions! Mark Egloff MEGLOF@CSC.COM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:38:36 BST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: QUB Subject: Re: No Brood = Queenlessness? Hi.. A probable 99% test for queenlesness would be to put a frame of brood containing eggs or 24hrs old larvae into the suspect hive..(be carefull that you dont transfer disease here). If queenless then they will produce emergency Q cells on the face of the comb. Beware, sometimes these cells will produce small runty Qs that produce a small brood nest. Regards Phil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:17:52 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: "Mite solution" This is taken from a March 26, 1996 news release from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Seattle office (206) 553 4768. "Penalties of $ 5,400 are being sought from a Washington state firm that invited beekeepers from around the country to buy a pesticide that had not been registered with the EPA, as required by federal law." ... "a Dec 1995 sale and January advertisement (of the product) occurred despite an EPA warning last May to cease selling Mite Solution, and to submit the product to EPA for registration". So, consider it an illegal, unregistered product of unknown safety, which has had no testing to indicate its effect on mites or bees. Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (604) 784-2225 fax (604) 784-2299 INTERNET KCLARK@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA Regarding not finding your queen: In most cases it is unnecessary to actually see the queen. If you can see patches of white brood, the queen has been there within a week. If you see patches of eggs, the queen has been there within 3 days. It's easiest to find a queen when the colony is small and compact. Open the hive gently, remove an ouside frame to let yourself remove occupied frames easily, then remove and examine frames from one side to the other, leaving the empty space between the 2 groups of frames. The queen is most likely to be on a frame with eggs. She moves differently from the other bees, and has a larger abdomen, often with less stripeing than her workers. Yellower queens are easier to see than darker ones. Again, if you can't see her but normal brood or eggs are present, don't worry. There are only a few operations for which it is necessary to find her. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:34:31 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: No Brood = Queenlessness?/Varroa? > How can one tell the difference between simple(?) queenlessness > and advanced varroa infestation? I intend to reinspect the > broodless hive this weekend and will do the apistran test for > varroa unless I see that all is normal. Varroa is one of the easiest bee maladies to diagnose -- by far. You can see them with the naked eye. Just uncap some drone brood and look for reddish specs. If negative, then you are likely not at a terminal stage, but a closer check may be in order: Take 100 live bees and put them in a glass jar and spray in a puff of starting ether from and aerosol can. Put on the lid and roll the jar around. Watch for any mites (red specs) that stick to the outside of the jar. Or put 100 live bees or so in a pill vial -- the kind with straight sides and a push on lid. Add some alcohol and shake for a few minutes, then pour thru a sieve. Any mites will be in the broth and obvious when it is poured on a paper towel. Count the mites and you have your infestation per 100 bees. Or, if you hate to kill any of your bees, place apistan (according to the instructions on the container) in the hive for 24 hours and place a sticky board under by pushing it in the entrance. If there is a flow on, you might be forgiven for taking the supers away for the day and replacing them -- if necessary -- with some temporary boxes, then returning them after the test. The result when observed with a magnifying glass is the '24 hour mite drop'. Don't forget to remove the strips after. These are all good methods of reassuring yourself, and there are more too... It is so easy that there is really no excuse for not sampling regularly. I wonder why I never seem to get around to it myself??? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Re: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little broo At 09:15 PM 6/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >cells from other colonies. As someone else mentioned, last year this was >common just before PMS symptoms began to appear. I think the scarcity of >brood means more varroas per cell of brood as they compeat for >reproductive opportunity. > Hello All: I must confess that I am ignorant of what the acronymn 'PMS' means (with regards to HONEYBEES...for those of you who are snickering right now!). In this thread it is being used in the same breath as varroa. I do a drone comb inspection for mites each time I open one of my hives. No sign of varroa as yet using this method. What is 'PMS' and what should I be looking for? Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:16:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? Hello All: A friend and fellow 'keeper in this area just had his 6 new packages inspected by the VT Bee inspector and they were found to have AFB. The background on this is that he had seven hives that were decimated by a bear late last Fall. When he discovered the destruction he estimates that they had been exposed for almost a week. He gathered the remanants and made three hives. None made it thru the Winter. When he rcvd new packages he used the old equipment to get them started. After a good settling in period this fellow noticed his brood was dying off in 3 of 6 hives. My friend believes (or was told) to burn everything and start over next year. Is there no other option? Can these hives be saved? He may give up due to his loss of dollars invested. Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:01:10 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? Irradiation is an excellent approach if an irradiation facility is available. As your friend lives in Vermont, a trip next spring to Worchester Ma. might be in order. He can save his equipment for a small fee. Note the prices listed below may be a little higher in 1997 as those listed are 1995 prices. I have talked to a few beekeepers who swear by the irradiation of any hive that has died off. The installed bees seem to flourish in the super clean hives. The following was taken without permission,(it is on the web) from the Worcester County Beekeepers Association web page. "The Winter 1995-1996 THE APIARY NEWS". A Publication of the Worcester County Beekeepers Association http://www.nesc.org/~juggler/anwinter.html =========================================================== ... ... ... AFB Program Begins Now Treatment of American Foulbrood contaminated hive equipment for reuse using gamma radiation by Don Sandstrom Gamma radiation at a dose of 1.5 Mrad is a highly effective method of making hive equipment contaminated with AFB spores fit for use again. This also allows you to reuse all drawn comb as well as the wooden ware. The bees must be destroyed after you have determined that your hive has been infected with AFB. Once this has been done, all infected equipment must be placed in plastic bags and then in corrugated boxes. These corrugated boxes must measure 24" x 18" x 10". Each box can hold: one hive body, frames, comb and inner cover OR one honey super, frames, comb, bottom board and outer cover OR anything else that will fit without distorting the box. Radiation treatment will be performed by Isomedix of Northboro. The price last year was $365 which we hope to obtain again this year. If we do, we should be prepared to process 80 or more of these boxes to keep the price to a minimum $6.50 per corrugate box. However, the price has not been set as of yet and can not be guaranteed. One (1) hive consisting of two (2) deep supers, one (1) honey super, comb, bottom board, outer cover and queen excluder will fill three (3) corrugated boxes. If the cost is $6.50 per box, then the total would be $19.50. The replacement cost of the wooden ware would be in excess of $100. This procedure represents a substantial savings in both time and money. As you know there is quite of bit of used equipment on the market and to protect your investment you should consider radiation treatment. Corrugated boxes of the proper size (J24) and packing instructions will be available at the January, February and March monthly meetings as well as a map showing where our storage facility is located. Please do not wait until March to decide to treat. This time will be reserved for receiving equipment which may need processing by new members of our 1996 Bee School. Times and dates will be established to allow those individuals participating in this program to bring their prepackaged materials for storage. The infected equipment will then be transported to Isomedix by volunteers several days prior to the actual run. If there is enough interest, a date for processing will be scheduled for some time in March. Equipment will be received at the storage area in early March, and the deadline for placing equipment in the Worcester storage facility will be announced at the upcoming meetings. Treat comb for wax moths as usual, but remove any moth crystals (paradichlorobenzene) prior to bringing the boxes to our storage facility. These crystals will evaporate in the plastic bag during processing, making it harder to air out the comb. Contact Don Sandstrom NOW if you are interested in processing any equipment this year. ... ... ... ====================================================== Jim Moore Moore@aiag.enet.dec.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:13:04 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dan Oetting Subject: I need to decipher a bee dance! I watched a swarm take flight this afternoon. Before they left I watched several bees repeating the same dance on the outside of the cluster. The waggle phase was almost vertical and lasted about 5 seconds. The direction of there flight matches the dance as they went South-West directly into the afternoon sun. What I would like to know is is what kind of distance the dance indicates so I can start looking for thier new hive. -- Dan Oetting ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:04:27 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hunahpu Matamoros Subject: Pollen Query Allens comments on Varroa make me wonder about the practical effects of eating the little critters mixed in with my pollen. Yesterday, after checking my hives(I had to medicate 30 days ago after letting both hives rob some VERY dirty old equiptment in early May) I slipped a pollen screen into the bottom of my strongest hive. Because I still have the strips in(for another 10 days), I presume I'm gonna have some dead/dying varroa dropping into the collector with the pollen. We're in the middle of an intense Himalayan Blackberry flow hereabouts and the frustration of not being able to take the beautiful clear honey that is being produced OR the pollen...is hard to bear. So tell me, are varroa any less nourishing than pollen granules? Can I consider that their brief contact with the mitiucide is going to effect me anywhere near as badly as it effected them? Must I wait until the strips are removed before I can harvest pollen? And if so...can I just dump the tray at the hive entrance and expect them to salvage the pollen. One last thing... Everytime I open my hives I find myself unable to avoid squishing bees as I return supers, broodchambers, excluders and tops to their original positions. I smoke and brush with my hand and SLOWLY lower...all to no avail. They seem to compete with one another for the privelege of being caught between the opposing walls. Yuccch. Am I doing something wrong? ...Stuart, Point Roberts, WA. A L A N K E Y E S F O R P R E S I D E N T ' 9 6 "We don't have money problems; we have moral problems. And it's time we stood up and faced that truth." http://sandh.com/keyes/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:22:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? What to do with AFB colonies? First, check with your local Department of Agriculture to find out what options are available to you. The laws vary, and what I can do in Maryland is not necessarily legal elsewhere. Two things are here to potenially save: the bees and the equipment. Assuming it's legal, some people will save both by feeding Terramycin. While Terramycin will render the disease inactive, the spores will still be viable. Hence, once you elect to go the Terramycin route, you are locked into it forevermore. Personally, I would (indeed have) killed AFB infected colonies, then get the gear fumigated. In Maryland, we have an Ethelyne Dioxide (ETO) chamber that is run by the State Department of Agriculture. It does a good job. Other fumigation methods are also effective, but all methods require special equipment and training, and are dangerous if you don't have the training and equipment (in other words, don't try this at home). W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:45:23 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? > viable. Hence, once you elect to go the Terramycin route, you are > locked into it forevermore. PMFJI, But t'ain't necessarily so. After a while (several years), the risk of breakdown may be no greater in a previously infected colony than in one started from foundation -- especially if you are in an area where AFB is endemic. Using TM to cure a colony is a bit of an art. Unless you are pretty disciplined and knowledgeable, you might not succeed. I concur with the suggestion to get local assistance and advice. Someone who actually works with you to deal with it will be the best advisor. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:54:04 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Pollen Query > So tell me, are varroa any less nourishing than pollen granules? Can > I consider that their brief contact with the mitiucide is going to > effect me anywhere near as badly as it effected them? Depends... Do you think you might have mites? > Must I wait > until the strips are removed before I can harvest pollen? And if > so...can I just dump the tray at the hive entrance and expect them > to salvage the pollen. They will likely ignore it or tote it away. You can put the (contaminated) pollen in bags in a freezer and use it to feed next spring -- to good effect. > > One last thing... > Everytime I open my hives I find myself unable to avoid squishing > bees as I return supers, broodchambers, excluders and tops to their > original positions. I smoke and brush with my hand and SLOWLY > lower...all to no avail. They seem to compete with one another for > the privelege of being caught between the opposing walls. Yuccch. Am > I doing something wrong? I've concluded that we are going to crush bees, and by trying to save one, we crush another. Of course there are tricks to avoid severe damage to masses of bees. For example avoiding walking on bees that have been shaken or blown off frames is a good start. Putting boxes on crooked, then straightening them helps. Tapping bees off lids and smoking a bit before reassembly can help. We do empathise with our bees and do try to spare them, but consider the havoc you wreak whenever you drive to town (Look at your windshield). > A L A N K E Y E S F O R P R E S I D E N T ' 9 6 Okay... But president of what?? BEE-L? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:35:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little broo In a message dated 96-06-27 16:11:01 EDT, tpeters@KingCon.com (Tim Peters) writes: << I must confess that I am ignorant of what the acronymn 'PMS' means (with regards to HONEYBEES...for those of you who are snickering right now!). In this thread it is being used in the same breath as varroa. I do a drone comb inspection for mites each time I open one of my hives. No sign of varroa as yet using this method. What is 'PMS' and what should I be looking for? Tim Peters, Kirby VT >> PMS refers, not to the queen's mood, but to Parasitic Mite Syndrome, which is the death of large quantities of brood when mite levels are high enough to kill them, either directly, or by stressing and/or infecting them with viruses. PMS looks somewhat similar to American Foulbrood, but dead larvae do not exhibit ropiness, nor is there the "kick-in-the-face" odor of foulbrood (though there may be a fainter odor of dead brood, and sick bees. You can normally spot varroa mites, if you uncap drone brood and look. When a hive has PMS, it is in the last stages of the infection, and likely will not have any drone brood. You can then uncap worker brood. Sometimes two or three mites will run out of every uncapped cell. The hive has only a few days left to live. At this point the adults tend to drift off (spreading the parasite). A hive that appeared strong one week may be empty the next. This most often happens in the fall of the year, sometimes just after honey removal. In the fall hives in such bad shape might better be extinguished anyway, as salvage is not likely. If you find a bad case in spring or early summer, you can treat with Apistan, and give them some extra (clean) brood, to get them going again. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:11:54 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS) Adding a little more to Dave Green's description of Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS): the term not only refers to the mite infestation itself (as Dave described), but more specifically refers to the symptoms of a heavy mite infestation which can, as Dave stated, appear similar to American Foulbrood. A good description regarding PMS can be found in BEE-L LOG9602 (reposted recently, hence also in BEE-L LOG9606) in the summary of a talk given by Dr. Cynthia Scott-Dupree to the Worcester County Beekeepers Association. Her talk referenced varroa mites as a vector in spreading bee viruses. Quoting from that post one final time: "The focus of current research is on how the mites may act as vectors in spreading the approximately twenty identified bee viruses, which are hard to identify in the field and whose symptoms may appear as common infectious diseases, hence being easily misidentified." "... varroa mites did exhibit a significant correlation in the spread of chronic bee paralysis virus types one and two, hairless black bee virus, Kashmir bee virus, black queen cell virus and others." "... it is perhaps the manner in which varroa feed on honeybees that activates the viruses, helping them to flourish to the detriment of colony population." To receive a copy of the entire log, send E-Mail to: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu with a single line in the body of the mail which reads: GET BEE-L LOG9602 or peruse them at W. Allen Dick's web page at: http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~dicka WARNING! the logs have grown to be QUITE large. It's perhaps time to split the logs by week rather than month. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:38:24 +0000 Reply-To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Wax Moth Hi All: Read somwhere that CO2 will kill wax moth eggs. Has any one tryed to use Dry Ice ? One could stack up the supers and seal them up with duct tape and put the dry ice on the top and the CO2 , being heavier than air, will sink to the bottom as it sublimes. Hope some one has tried it. I don't want to loose comb in the control of the experiment. Thanks in advance. James Peterson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:08:36 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS) > To receive a copy of the entire log, send E-Mail to: > LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu > with a single line in the body of the mail which reads: > GET BEE-L LOG9602 > or peruse them at W. Allen Dick's web page at: > http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~dicka > WARNING! the logs have grown to be QUITE large. It's perhaps time > to split the logs by week rather than month. In that regard, a major cause is people quoting entire articles and the response to the article, then adding a comment. While that is a proper thing to do on USENET due to the poor propagation and the fact that readers very likely do not have access to the original article, it is rather inappropriate on a small list like this where all have received the original and the response. I'll plead again to all t he new members: PLEASE EDIT YOUR QUOTES SO THAT THE LOGS ARE SMALL ENOUGH TO BE PRACTICAL. TIA Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:09:47 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? At 09:22 PM 6/27/96 -0400, you wrote: >What to do with AFB colonies? > >First, check with your local Department of Agriculture to find out what >options are available to you. The laws vary, and what I can do in Maryland >is not necessarily legal elsewhere. > >Two things are here to potenially save: the bees and the equipment. > >Assuming it's legal, some people will save both by feeding Terramycin. > While Terramycin will render the disease inactive, the spores will still be >viable. Hence, once you elect to go the Terramycin route, you are locked >into it forevermore. > >Personally, I would (indeed have) killed AFB infected colonies, then get the gear >fumigated. In Maryland, we have an Ethelyne Dioxide (ETO) chamber that is run >by the State Department of Agriculture. It does a good job. > >Other fumigation methods are also effective, but all methods require special >equipment and training, and are dangerous if you don't have the training and >equipment (in other words, don't try this at home). > >W. G. Miller >Gaithersburg, MD > Here are some other ideas. Remember, however, that you are limited by what your area considers legal. If the frames are heavily infested - remove and burn, but only the heavily infested ones. Mix up some TM and icing sugar 1:5 and dust a heaping tablespoon of this mixture over the end bars - 1 spoonful on each end. Repeat this every week. Do this for each brood chamber. If you plan to collect honey you should stop this 2 weeks before the flow. Start again after the flow. It is nice to get about 3 treatements before and after the flow and I suggest that you will have cleaned up the equipment. Sure the spores will still be around but they are likely in the equipment that all of us have anyway and likley TM is part of all of our management. Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:22:48 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: AFB (was Bee Boxes...) > PMS looks somewhat similar to American Foulbrood, but dead > larvae do not > exhibit ropiness, nor is there the "kick-in-the-face" odor of > foulbrood (though there may be a fainter odor of dead brood, and > sick bees. Nice post Dave. To change the subject a little, I might add to that the fact that when I was a bee inspector -- long before the days of mites -- I came across examples such as you describe that appeared initially to be AFB, but were not. If readers have what appears to be an AFB breakdown, and have insufficient experience to be sure, or if the sample does not have the distinctive qualities described, a lab analysis or expert second opinion is in order before any drastic action is taken. Of the two, the odor -- to me -- is the stronger signature. Ropiness is a good indicator, but slightly less reliable. Newbies often do not know how ropey the goo should bee. However if many hives are involved, the nose soon looses its sensitivity, and some people cannot recognise the smell. Personally I can often walk into a honeyhouse or warehouse and tell if there is any significant AFB in the outfit. As I recall, A sample should sting out a fair ways and neck down to a fairly narrow elastic-looking string 1/2 to 3/4 inch long and not be lumpy. Others might want to add to this... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:22:09 -0500 Reply-To: MTS@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Re: Feeding Yeast. Comments: To: r butler Comments: cc: BEE-EXTL@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu In-Reply-To: <31CF7704.753@cableregina.com> Can't help too much here..I am forwarding your message to the bee-l and extl lists in the hope you might get an reasonable answer. Tom Sanford On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, r butler wrote: > Dr Sanford. > Could you please help me regarding yeast as a pollen substitue. > > I am a home beer brewer and I was wondering about using the yeast and > protein sludge from the bottom of primary fermentations for feeding > my bees. At present I must throw out tens of gallons of this yeast > sludge, and would like to put it to good use. "Oh the possible > efficiencies of two overgrown hobbies..." > > The sludge is mostly yeast, and will contain some precipitated > /coagulated proteins from the grain, as well as some residual hop flower > acids which are responsible for bittering beer. > > Is the commercial soy and yeast substitute more pure than this ? > Where would someone to go to find out if feeding this dried sludge is a > good or a bad idea? > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > TIA > Robert Butler > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:31:57 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: What have I found? Yesaterday while tending my hives I opened some drone brood to look for mites and saw something I have never seen before. I have never looked before either. This only appeared on 2 out of dozens that I pulled out. The drone was 2 or 3 days from emerging (that's a guess). This was a threadlike thing loosely attached to the end of the abdomen. Under a disecting microscope (30X) it looked like a fine piece of cotton thread which was quite tough. I suppose if I stretched it out it might have reached 3 cm. This thread was kinked and tangled and loosely surrounded by a yellowish jelly. Also attached were three brown globs that also were jelly-like when I pried them apart. Any ideas? Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:32:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: How to deal with .... First a little background: I am located in Northern Alberta, Canada and we have had 2 weeks of cold rainy weather. The hives in question were checked 19 days ago and were queen rite. 17 days ago they received the last of 3 treatments of Formic Acid on the bottom board. What I have found - in far too many hives: The upper brood chamber is almost full of honey. The population of bees was great. The bottom brood chamber has capped brood, no open brood or eggs and so no queen. I have seen Formic acid kills before but this was always accompanied by lots of supersedurre cells. No queen cells in any of these colonies. This occured in colonies that may have been exposed to Varroa and which were treated with Apistan. An ideas on what is happening or suggestions on how to deal with these colonies? My management at this time is: Introduce a queen into the bottom brood chamber, place an empty brood chamber as the second box, excluder, the brood chamber full of honey in #3 position and an empty super on top. I have seen similar occurances on the past but only rarely and never thought too much about it. This time I am finding 2 or 3 in many yards. Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John A Skinner Subject: Re: Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS) In-Reply-To: <960628.081432.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Suggestion, You may want to read the following article which was the first to describe "PMS". Shimanuki, Calderone, and Knox 1994. American Bee Journal, Dec. pp 827-828 John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:39:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Lackey Subject: NY state Queen breeder? I believe someone in western NY was breeding queens for resistance to the trachael mite. What has been happening in that effort? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Raymond J. Lackey, EAS Master Beekeeper, Pres LIBC + + Twelve years exper with 25 colonies on Long Island, NY+ + INTERNET: lackeyr@hazeltine.com + + Mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia NY 11617-2176 + + Home Phone: 516-567-1936 FAX: 516-262-8053 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:13:20 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L to keep weekly logs I have arranged for BEE-L to keep weekly logs starting July 1. July logs will be named: BEE-L LOG9607A, BEE-L LOG9607B, ... BEE-L LOG9607E. I'll be away from the office that week. If there are problems with the logs, report them to POSTMAST@cnsibm.albany.edu /Aa Aaron Morris - thinking the logs are TOO BIG! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 15:27:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: No Brood = Queenlessness? >A probable 99% test for queenlesness would be to put a frame of brood containing eggs or >24hrs old larvae into the suspect hive..(be carefull that you dont transfer disease here). If >queenless then they will produce emergency Q cells on the face of the comb. >Beware, sometimes these cells will produce small runty Qs that produce a small brood nest. While I agree with the overall method the last sentence forces me to respond. The only reason it will produce runty Qs is the failure of the keeper to remove the emergency cells!! On the 4th day after adding the frame, check and cut out all "Sealed" cells. This removes cells which would produce runty Qs, and leaves cells which will go full term ie 9 days to sealed, 16 days to emerge. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 15:33:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: NY state Queen breeder? In a message dated 96-06-28 12:42:08 EDT, rjl7317@hazeltine.com (Ray Lackey) writes: << Subj: NY state Queen breeder? I believe someone in western NY was breeding queens for resistance to the trachael mite. What has been happening in that effort? >> You might try contacting Bob Brachman 7590 Maples Rd. Little Valley, NY 14755. I know he's working on mite resistance. Vince Coppola may know more about his project too. He's a young queen breeder, just getting established. You might jack him up to get with the times, and get online. BTW, he has nice stock, whether or not it is mite resistant. I've seen it. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:11:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Laying Workers. I have a question! Please read carefully before jumping to conclusions. A 3 frame nuc, made up as usual, one sealed brood, two pollen and stores. A cell added at the second day which emerged, virgin queen was seen. About 7 days later, no eggs, no queen, poor mating weather cold and rainy. A second, mated queen introduced succesfully. Now the hive has been checked to find brood and eggs in all stages, but laying workers as well. There are eggs of various sizes, from pin head to full size, scattered eveywhere. Now, I was always lead to believe that the Queen's pheromones and young brood prevented laying workers. Does anybody have an answer? What the ------ do I do with this nuc? Normally I would shake them in front of a full size hive, but what about the Queen, this is not her fault, or is it? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:22:10 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: No Brood = Queenlessness? > >A probable 99% test for queenlesness would be to put a frame of > >brood containing eggs or 24hrs old larvae into the suspect hive. > While I agree with the overall method the last sentence forces me to > respond. > The only reason it will produce runty Qs is the failure of > the > keeper to remove the emergency cells!! On the 4th day after adding > the frame, check and cut out all "Sealed" cells. This removes cells > which would produce runty Qs, and leaves cells which will go full > term ie 9 days to sealed, 16 days to emerge. The other day I was adding a frame of eggs to a queenless hive in an outyard (Too far to drive to get only one queen!) And I realised that we always add a frame of *eggs* -- not larvae -- where possible in such a case. Of course this is a habit and I hadn't thought much about it lately, but I realised that if the bees were actually queenless and were given eggs, then they would likely start queens as soon as the first eggs hatched -- or sooner. In this case, the larvae would be treated as queens from the start and the runty or half caste problem should not occur. Am I wrong? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:10:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: douglas baty Subject: Re: PERMA-COMB I bought a box of perma-comb, and found the bees would not work in it unless absolutely forced. For me it is worthless. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:15:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: douglas baty Subject: Re: Mite Solution: Queen Locating: Smoker Fuel I used 'mite solution' for the first time last fall. Prior to its use I had lost 23 of my 30 hives to Varroa mite. Although I had earlier used Apistan, I did not want to continue using it. I placed the mite solution in with grease patties in the fall, again this spring. A month ago I checked for Varroa, both in drone brood and with Apistan with sticky boards, and found NO Varroa. I don't know why it works, but from my experience, it does work, and the bees are once again healthy and busy in our gardens. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:47:13 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Mite Solution: Queen Locating: Smoker Fuel In-Reply-To: from "douglas baty" at Jun 28, 96 02:15:23 pm As Kerry Clark points out, Mite Solution is not legal to use. I have grave concerns about using unregistered substances in hives. Apistan has been shown to be effective, and as a contact dispersed chemical, a don't worry so much about adulteration of comb, honey, etc. Squirting, pouring, or fumigating with untested substances can lead to contamination of the hive and products. Worse yet, you don't even know whether it truly works. We see lots of beekeepers taking veterinary products, squirting them on cotton balls, carboard, rags, you name it. Dose, means of distribution, effectiveness - all word of mouth and many someone's guess or impression. Do you really save anything by using something that could be harmful to your bees or product and that may or may not control mites? Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:11:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? Eric, Thanks for the reply. My personal method for dealing with AFB is to look for it when I inspect colonies. If I hit a positive colony (it's only happened once so far), our local bee inspector gets a call (takes care of the legal requirement to report AFB). If he agrees the colony has AFB, then he kills it (he has access to better chemicals for the job than I do), and the colony is sealed and the equipment taken to my garage for bee-proof storage until winter. All honey in the contaminated equipment is thrown out. In the winter, the Maryland Dept. of Agriculture runs its fumigation chamber, and in goes the contaminated equipment. After fumigation, the gear is ready for re-use. The bee inspector also does an independent inspection of my colonies roughly once every three years. Any used gear I buy also goes into the fumigation chamber as a rouitine precaution. I have had good results using fumigated gear that came from known AFB colonies. I guess that my foulbrood rate is statistically about average for Maryland (roughly 1% of all Maryland colonies inspected in a given year come up with AFB). With foulbrood this rare, I see no reason to use Terramycin. However, others in Maryland do routinely use Terramycin. The key to my method involves ensuring that only equipment that is known to be AFB-free is used in the colonies. Thanks again for your thoughts. At least I don't live in Florida, where I understand the laws for AFB requires burning all contaminated equipment. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:22:19 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: Brood boxes--all pollen and honey, little broo > PMS refers, not to the queen's mood, but to Parasitic Mite Syndrome, While for beekeepers in New Zealand, PMS refers to the Pest Management Strategy that we are developing to attempt to eliminate American foulbrood using the powers provided by NZ's Biosecurity Act. Unfortunate acronym, eh? (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:55:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Stephen.Reddick" Subject: ? Removing Bees form house Hi Bee-liners I now have the task of removing bees from someones house. It is easy enough set the cone screen entrence up to lock the bee out. I can also suspend a hive at the enternce. My question is 1. Use a new hive with foundation ? 2. Use a new hive W/foundation , & 1 frame of very young brood ? 3. Use a hive that I have that has a 10 day old. 3 lb swarm in it, It is queen right. Thanks Steve.Reddick First yr. 3hives,2 from nucs, 1from caught swarm. Ontario.Canada ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:20:55 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Filtered honey > [snip] > >You are missing the point altogether. By your definition I can heat my >honey, then filter it to the point that it has very little color and no >pollen, then label it as natural honey so long as it is not contaminated or >adulterated. This is basically true in the USA. Some states are beginning >to set some standards for grades of honey. > >My point is that under present law highly processed honey can be and is >labeled as raw honey. That is the point. We have laws that carry stiff >penalties for selling adulterated or contaminated honey. What we do not >have are laws that define what is raw, or what is natural, what is filtered >etc. This is what needs to be resolved so that the consumer knows what he >or she is buying, real raw honey or a product that has been so processed >that it barely resembles honey. > >Frank Humphrey >beekeeper@Worldnet.att.net >Frank Humphrey >beekeeper@worldmet.att.net > Hi Frank; I aggree to some extent, but the real reason that we need to retain the original P-fund (colour scale) reading is to maintain the reading standard of the honey as prepared by the bees. If this reading is changed this means that you as a beekeeper, when sending your honey to a packing company reduces your honey from light amber to dark amber or such, therefore reducing your return as a beekeeper. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:21:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: No Brood = Varroa?/EFB,AFB Hi everyone; In the Bee-L there has been much discussion of the mite infestation in bees. There is a regular confussion, with talk of brood examination for mites. V, mites are found in the breathing systems (trachea and spiracles) of mature bees. If there is indication of brood damage, this is more suggestive of either AFB or EFB, and therefore this could be the real cause of mass destruction of the bee hives. All beekeepers must remember that both AFB & EFB are bacteria, that has the ability to spore and resist any attempt to irradiate or antibioticly destroy all the AFB & EFB organism. Fire is the only preventable methodology of destruction of AFB & EFB. Dr Brian Goble PhD Ecology Research Centre Note: Honey found in the pyramids, contained active AFB/EFB, many centaries later. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:27:55 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? Hello all, I thought that I may as well join in the foulbrood thread, and I regret if I step on any toes in doing. There is no point in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.(burning hives) This is not the dark ages folks. I remember when we first (inspectors in MI) found T-mites. Ye Gads! Burn them out! And you know, we still have mites. One post responded that his procedure was to use TM mix and put it over the end bars once a week. It works. At one time, years ago when I started out, I took over a hundred FB hives from a fruit grower. Most of them cleared up. The ones that *didn't* got burned. In my mind, if treating with TM didn't work, then I was going to kill out that strain of bacteria. By the way, I did requeen to get a young prolific layer in the hive. No doom and gloom. My understanding is that most of the hives have the spores in them. Just like we humans have pathogens in our bodies. If the organism gets stressed out, bingo, pathogens multiply. I think that the sterilization is a joke. Too small and too much cost. Keep the hives strong and manage them well. Use a patty at least once a year and the hives should be FB free. I would recommend a dusting in the spring and fall, also, as patties don't seem to work quite as well as dusting, in my experience. I have not found any sign of FB in three years or so. Also, just like Allen, I can smell it before I see it. Good luck! Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones email b-man@aliens.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:09:29 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roberto Jose Gentile >To: Mail to the list BEE-L >From: eleo@openware.com.ar > > I am about to obtain my certificate as tecnico in apicultura. > I'll much appriciate your opinions in relation with your firs stepes in this matter. Getting a job. > I live in Mar del Plata (Argentina). I apologise about my elementary english. > Thanks a lot.- > > > >Ram=F3n A.B. Torres >Talcahuano 1020 >Ph. (23) 82-5063 - E-mail: setorres@bart.uni-mdp.edu.ar >7600 MAR DEL PLATA >REPUBLICA ARGENTINA > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:00:38 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Supercedure by the Dozens? Hello All: Another day, another never-seen-before situation, so another question. Yesterday I did a *complete* inspection of one of my hives. The purpose was to determine the conditions of the brood nest and to rotate 1st and 3rd deeps if necessary. I inspected each frame in each of the 3 deep hive. I found that the brood nest had indeed moved up mostly into the 3rd deep. The 2nd or middle deep also had older and emerging brood and the 1st or bottom deep had only a small patch of brood, mostly honey and some pollen. I rotated 1 & 3 so that the younger brood would be on the bottom. I was suprised to find one frame in the 3rd deep to have 9-10 queen cells on the face of the comb, about in the middle of the frame. Each side of the frame had about the same number of cells, making for a total of about 18 cells! I also found a similar frame in the bottom deep, but not as many cells. All of these cells were closed. They appeared to be somewhat smaller then what I have seen for supercedure cells in the past. I opened up a few and found larvae that I judge to be fairly immature. What is going on here? I'm worried. I read the thread about testing for a queenless hive and the reference to emergency Q cells. Is this what is happening? I must add that there were 3-4 frames of newly sealed brood in an excellent pattern next to the frame holding these cells. I must confess that I was distracted by the Q cells and do not remember looking for or seeing any uncapped larvae or eggs. Thanks to everyone for their help in advance. I know that I should be talking with my State inspector about these things but we only have one guy for the whole state, he's hard to reach on the phone and even harder to get to come over to do an inspection. His latest promise is the week of 7/8 or the week following...unfortunately I have heard this promise before. Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:14:12 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Batting Zero? > Hi everyone; > > In the Bee-L there has been much discussion of the mite > infestation in bees. There is a regular confussion, with talk of > brood examination for mites. > > V, mites are found in the breathing systems (trachea and > spiracles) of mature bees. Excuse me, but you are dead wrong -- again. If there is confusion, it is on your end. You are apparently unaware that there are two types of mites currently causing serious damage in bee colonies worldwide -- Tracheal, and Varroa. They have both been discussed actively on this list. The former mite does, in fact live in the breathing tubes. The latter could never get in to a tracheal tube -- the mite is simply far too large. Please research before you post. I know we all make mistakes, but you are batting about 2 for 10 by my reckoning --- even giving you credit for some pretty questionable or incomprehensible posts. We do have some newer beekeeper members who might be led astray by such misinformation. > Note: Honey found in the pyramids, contained active AFB/EFB, many > centaries Active foulbrood -- by definition -- requires current brood rearing in a bee colony. I suspect you are trying to say that spores found in the honey were viable, which is a different thing entirely. You are batting zero for two on this post. I apologise in advance if you have some disease which affects your judgement and memory, as I understand you are a learned man. However if your problem is what I suspect, please make sure you are sober when you post to the list. TIA. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:22:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: No Brood = Queenlessness?/Varroa? ***** My first diagnosis was that I was queenless in the hive even though the hive was behaving normally. It wasn't overly aggressive (even after I dropped one of the brood chambers), bees were flying and taking advantage of the weather and they had put up 4 full medium supers of honey. ****** What you describe is similar to what I often see in a hive a few weeks after it swarms. The last offspring from the old queen have emerged, but the new queen (assuming one is there) has not yet begun to lay. If the bees are behaving normally, then they likely have a virgin or a newly-mated queen. This period should only last a week or so. If you don't have eggs by then, you probably don't have a queen. Opened swarms cells would tell you whether swarming had occurred. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 05:42:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Mite Solution DB>From: douglas baty >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:15:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: Mite Solution: Queen Locating: Smoker Fuel DB>I used 'mite solution' for the first time last fall. Prior to its use I >had lost 23 of my 30 hives to Varroa mite. Although I had earlier used >Apistan, I did not want to continue using it. I placed the mite solution >in with grease patties in the fall, again this spring. A month ago I >checked for Varroa, both in drone brood and with Apistan with sticky >boards, and found NO Varroa. I don't know why it works, but from my >experience, it does work, and the bees are once again healthy and busy in >our gardens. Hello Douglas, This is good information, "it does work". You will see some comments from others that will fault you or try to lay some kind of guilt trip on you for using a product that is in dispute with government regulators or is not properly registered. Please do not take these comments for anymore then what they are worth which is someone's educated or regulatory opinion who has nothing to lose from your own personal loss of your bees because you did not use an all natural product, other then the time they spent in posting the standard regulatory disclaimer that this is a NO NO..! I think that most of us know what is legal and what is not and I for one do not recommend anyone use anything that is not legal, but do not fault anyone who does and appreciate the reports of anyone's failure or success in doing something that I would not do myself for what ever the personal or job reason I have for not doing so myself. Much of the history of beekeeping is full of home remedies that work but can not be explained, and this includes almost all of the scientific work on bee medicines in use today, like sulfa drugs, (not used today) and TM which no one knows exactly even today how they work or even if they are intended to treat individual bees, bee grubs of one size or age, or the hive of bees as a whole. Sulfa is no longer legal to use in much of the bee world, not because of the dangers in its use by beekeepers but because of more general use in large animals for slaughter. TM is still allowed (in the US) but has been under attack several times and if it is denied because of problems outside of the bee industry you can be sure it too will be gone for use by beekeepers. There are other antibiotics and drugs that work as well as these on individual bee problems but because of the unrealistic costs of registration and not the dangers they could be misused are not available for use on bees. At the same time it must be acknowledged that in recent times when beekeeper have turned their attention to agricultural pesticides for the control of bee pests their have been some grand mistakes made by beekeepers, some beekeepers have managed to shorten their own time on this earth by their lack of knowledge on how to use pesticides. One case in California that resulted in the loss of all use of one chemical in use by the bee industry to kill diseased bees and also control wax moths for thirty five years without problems happened because a bee regulator who also was a beekeepers used the material without using common sense God gives us all and almost killed himself, result none of us, including bee regulators can use the chemical. In France and other places beekeepers have reported a decline in their own personal health because of the fogging of apiaries with pesticides to kill mites, so no fogging is now allowed. I could go on and on, but I won't as accidents do happen and it makes no difference if the product is approved or not. It is sad that the laws are such that no matter how good a home brew product of natural ingredients is there is no practicable way anyone can formulate it without spending large sums of money on standardized tests that may or may not protect the public or the user and do little more then add to the everyday cost of living and/or keeping our bees healthy. If the manufacture or formulator of this "mite solution" had sold it only as a bee food additive he may have been able to do it without serious legal problems because the laws are different for animal food additives then they are for pesticides. (You need no permit, licence, or should you need to fear feeding bees sugar, and other food replacements, even though it is possible that these can get into the honey if not used appropriately. The addition of other natural ingredients, such as the so called "mite solution" to bee food should be no different then adding TANG to standard insects diets which is/or was a standard practice for many years outside of the bee industry, done without any research to back it up other then the fact those who fed insects did it because it did no harm and they felt it was useful.) In this case I believe the ingredients are well known, readily available, natural, and safe to use, and may have even been or are being tested by the USDA for effective control of V. mites. Hopefully some time in the future we all may be able to purchase and use them without fear or problems from regulators. In what year or century I do not know. And my congratulation on being the first beekeeper in the United States to report being able to get off the pesticide treadmill if only for a short period of time.. I only hope it will not be to late for us all as we wait for the USDA or whoever is going to find the non chemical solution to the V. mites and gets the appropriate regulatory approval as an alarming number of bees that were treated with Apistan according to all recommendation and regulations were reported as dead this spring from V. mites or PMS. If V. mites cause PMS then controlling the mites should solve the problem and our bees should be healthy or at least not dieing from V. mites or PMS. All PMS does is give the chemical manufacture of Apistan an out when beekeepers find their products is not working as advertised as they will say, "our product worked, your bees must have died from PMS" and "the proof our product works is every beekeeper is using it, and if it did not work they would not be doing so", "and its registered, regulated, and recommended by our agents the USDA, bee regulatory officials, and those in higher education and bee research". They won't tell you that none of the above is any more adapt at keeping their bees alive then you are, that is the few that have any live bees. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ L'ENFUMOIR" is the tool the beekeeper uses to smoke pot? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:17:35 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Re: No Subject In a message dated 96-06-29 10:14:16 EDT, you write: << I apologise about my elementary english. >> Roberto: Never apologize for your English when dealing with Norte Americanos! How many of us could converse in Spanish as well you do in English? Al Needham Hobbyist Scituate,MA USA alwine@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:15:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Mite Solution: Queen Locating: Smoker Fuel In-Reply-To: <19960626.211007.3406.0.gordonstowe@juno.com> On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Gordon N. Stowe wrote: > There are on the market two treatments, possibly the same product, for > treatment for mites. They are called "MITE SOLUTION" and "M-SOLUTION". > Does anyone know anything about this stuff and I have some specific > questions: > > 1) Is it effective > 2) Is it safe to use during the honey-flow > I would not use anyones product to control mites who connot provide any data supporting its use, or who have published phony EPA, FDA, an patent numbers. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:18:48 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: PERMA-COMB In-Reply-To: <1376277715-64688632@mailhost.cyberTours.com> Sounds quite expensive. Also, chech out the weight of these frames. Multiply by how many you may have to handle , can your truck handle them? We are often overweight now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:54:39 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Varroa << V, mites are found in the breathing systems (trachea and spiracles) of mature bees.>>> Some misimformation here, David. Varroa mites in Australia must be very different from those in England. Ours are much too big to enter the spiracles. The largest spiracle in the bee is, at its widest, 0.14mm. The Varroa mite, at its smallest, is more than 1.0mm wide and long, some ten times too big to enter. You are confusing Varroa with Acarine, two very different mites. Permit me to quote from a Ministry Pamphlet. "Varroa is an external parasitic mite that lives exclusively on honeybees, feeding from their blood (haemolymph). To breed, the adult female mite enters a brood cell shortly before the cell is capped, where she remains in the brood food until the cell is sealed. She then feeds on the developing bee larva. Mating between mite offspring (brother and sister) takes place within the cell. The male mite cannot survive once the bee emerges from the cell; consequently all mature mites visible within the hive are female. If given a choice mites prefer to breed in drone brood, yet they are well suited to infest worker cells. When brood rearing is restricted in winter the mites live on the bodies of adult bees within the winter cluster, remaining there until brood rearing commences in the spring. During the summer , female mites may live for two to three months. However, during the winter or broodless periods they can live much longer, feeding on adult bees. Mites cannot survive without bees -for instance on combs and equipment - for more than around two days." As regards the last sentence I must say that I have kept mites in a test tube and their legs have been kicking, albeit feebly, up to five days. Many small beekeepers have asked recently about the risks of buying second-hand equipment. Clearly there is no danger from Varroa or Acarine but every chance of something far more troublesome than these, namely AFB and EFB, which can linger in old equipment for years. Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 09:52:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Queens and the postal dept. I am sending a copy of an E-Mail I recevied today. Along with some friendly advice to all beekeepers who order Package Bees and Queens through the mail. We all need to do our part to try and educate our Postal workers to the problems with shipping Queens. Belive it or not, of the calls we recive about dead Queens, most of them die in someones mail box or on their stoop. I even got one call from a woman whose dog at the package when the mail man pushed it through the door. The bottom line is from talking to other Queen breeders losses range from 5 to 15 percent. How would any of you like to lose 15 percent of what you produce from no fault of your own. This post is as much a plea for help as it is for your information. << Hi Dean, my queen arrived Saturday in good condition. The mailman left her in the mail box and she would not have survived if I hadn't checked the mail soon after he came by. It was 95 degrees that day. Thanks for the quick response. I plan to split my hive today and introduce her to the hive. It has finally quit raining for a while so I have had time to put up hay. The bees seem to like this weather also. Robert Cessac K-B Ranch Natural Beef >> The U.S. mail has done the most to make my customers unhappy this year. They have caused not only me but at least 5 other queen breeders to be late this year. The best part of it is if you look on the outside of your package it says call on arrival. My advice to you in the future is to alert your local post office prior to arrival that there are bees on the way and to hold them in your local post office. The other thing to do is to have them sent to your post office's address and then you can go and pick them up. I bring my post office here in Dade City honey every Christmas with my bussiness card attached and also personally give a jar to my carrier. It gives me a chance to explain what a 150 degree mailbox will do to my queens. Ever since I started doing that I now get calls at 4 oclock in the morning, your bees are here! I don't like to rise that early but I would rather get a call at 4 am than to have to try and replace breeder stock that is sent to me. This whole bussiness of queen rearing is a whole lot tougher when you get to include the US mails ( I guess in their defence it would bee even tougher with out them). For the most part they are on time and caring, but this year they killed 15% of what I produced. Thank you all for letting me be able to at least share my CONCERN's with you. Dean M. Breaux Executive Vice President Hybri-Bees 11140 Fernway Lane Dade City, Florida 33525 (352) 521-0164 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 15:06:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: New Hives with AFB - Can these hives be saved? In-Reply-To: Although I did inspect for NYS for 6 years and saw hundreds of AFB hives I will not waste your time with my opinions. For those who want to know what the various methods of control can and cannot do, based on actual results from around the globe, I recomend you read the articles by Mathison, I think they were in ABJ about 3 years ago. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:44:09 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Mite Solution In-Reply-To: <960629084919232@beenet.com> On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Andy Nachbaur wrote: > > Hello Douglas, > > This is good information, "it does work". You will see some comments > from others that will fault you or try to lay some kind of guilt trip > on you for using a product that is in dispute with government regulators > or is not properly registered. Please do not take these comments for > anymore then what they are worth which is someone's educated or > regulatory opinion who has nothing to lose from your own personal loss > of your bees because you did not use an all natural product, other then > the time they spent in posting the standard regulatory disclaimer that > this is a NO NO..! I think that most of us know what is legal and what Hello Andy And Doug, I think there is more to these comments than "standard regulatory Disclaimer". I have personal experience with this product(M-solution) having spent many long hours last season trying different deliverys at different times of year and counting mites on many a sticky board, not to mention risking 36 colonies for the experiment. Although we did get some positive results, we could not get consistant results. There are apparently many factors to be considered and I felt I could no longer afford to continue trying. Especially since the manufactureres lied about registration and patent nos. There is responsibility attached to making a claim that a product will control mites. After all if you are wrong someones hard earned bees may die. Isn't that why testing is done? Isn't that what science is? Doug- I'm glad you got good results. I did'nt think of putting it in a grease patty-good idea. But be careful about making a recomendation out of it. How many times did it work? What were your pretreatment mite levels? Did the time of year of the treatment make a differance? Does a honeyflow make a differance? You get the idea. Hope you continue your experiments. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:04:16 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Mite Solution: Queen Locating: Smoker Fuel In-Reply-To: On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, douglas baty wrote: > I used 'mite solution' for the first time last fall. Prior to its use I > had lost 23 of my 30 hives to Varroa mite. Although I had earlier used > Apistan, I did not want to continue using it. I placed the mite solution > in with grease patties in the fall, again this spring. A month ago I > checked for Varroa, both in drone brood and with Apistan with sticky > boards, and found NO Varroa. I don't know why it works, but from my > experience, it does work, and the bees are once again healthy and busy in > our gardens. > Hi Douglas and All, Please don't use any chemical that has not been approved for use and registered.The tests needed to qualify a chemical to be used in a hive is a lot more complex than killing the mite. We don't need to be forced to test all of our Honey before we go to market with it. The apple growers in Washington state are still getting over there problem with atar.We have a wonderful product Honey.We need to keep the public looking at our product as being pure. There is a lot of money being spent to promote our product as being pure and natural. I want to get rid of Varroa as bad as anyone on this list. I lost 50 out of 80 hives last fall and I'm doing what I can to get the public to see our problem , which will be there problem if we loose many more bees. I did get an article and a picture in our Bremerton paper, about 20,000 copies about the mite and our problems dealing with it. Front page caption. I do know a little about chemistry. I have always enjoyed it very muck. My Son is finisning up now with his degree in Chemistry. We were looking at the ways wax will hold some of these compounds that people are using.I do know the frustration that a beekeeper has when they loose a lot of hives. Some people loose a lot more than me.Why set up the whole industry to have the honey checked for purity , when thats what we are selling. Lets do the positive things that we can all do to get support for a long term fix without chemicals. I know it is hard to go up against the chemical loby , but it costs us time and money to keep putting chemicals into our hives.Lets make shure that we put in only those that are registered and support the breeding programs that are going on. Europe seems to be working hard at fixing the problem through genetics. We have some wonderful beekeepers doing the same thing on there own.Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot before we get the real long term fix. My opinion; Formic acid should not be used in a behive because of the Pheromones are organic acids and much weaker. It will cause some problems for the pheromones and the behavior of the bees. We may have to use it in the US if we don't get good backing for our researchers and the USDA to come up with a better fix. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: midnitebee Subject: Re: Queens and the postal dept. >Approved-By: HYBRIBEES@AOL.COM >Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 09:52:24 -0400 >Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" >Subject: Re: Queens and the postal dept. >To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L > I work for the Postal Service, and what Dean has stated previously is very true,unfortunately. You have to alert your local post office,pick up your package at that office,and give them your phone number.I have received many packaged bees,where the address or phone number had been smeared with sugar syrup or some other debris.The bee breeders should also have a better labeling system.The postal workers have been trained to read the customer's address,not any side notes. Maybe if the breeder sticks a label to the package, it will help.I have tried to educate my fellow workers about the proper handling of bees.I will again talk to the District of Maine Postal Management Officers.Remember-not everyone likes to handle bees,especially when bees are clinging outside the package!! Let me know about complaints in Maine. MIDNITEBEE@CYBERTOURS.COM P.S. Queen breeders should send their bees in a crush-proof package - for example, the Post Office provides free of charge a two-day delivery envelope. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:48:33 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Yield per Medium Super -- Summary A few weeks ago I asked about the weight of honey actually obtained per medium depth super (6 5/8"), and possible differences between eight & nine frames. The replies were very informative, and summarized below. First, let me say that I extracted thirty medium supers yesterday and yielded nearly two barrels, which would equate to about 40 pounds per super. Separately, I weighed five supers before and after extracting. This small sample lost an average of 45 pounds (honey, wax and propolis scrappings). These supers were pretty well plugged up with honey, though. Here are the (edited) e-mail replies: ----1 A 6 5/8 super can hold a little over 40 lbs. This however is not typical. We have 13 years of recorrds of per col and per super yields. On most crops here in WNY a 6 5/8 super yields about 23 lbs. If the flow is better than ave. yield will be about 27 lbs. The highest per super ave. we have seen is 36 lbs/sup. The differance seems to be how strong the flow is and how thick they draw the combs. ------/1 -----2 My own experiance is that the amount of honey varies depending on the type of honey collected during honey flow.Some types are very much thicker & heavier than others.As to 9 frames vs. 8, I always use ten as it cuts down on the amount of scur in the super. ----/2 ----3 check the latest issue of bee culture. they did a work up of super size, # of frames and potential yield of honey and wax. you'll have all the numbers you'll ever want! ----/3 (I read this. It was interesting, but it gave only theoretical data -- no actual results. -John). ---4 In my experience, about 25 lbs from a shallow, about 35 lbs from a medium, and 45-50 lbs from a deep, by the time it reaches your buckets. Then there is also the honey you salvage from the cappings. I used to run 9 frames in honey supers. Now I go with 8, evenly spaced across the super. This works great. The combs are fat, easy to uncap right back to the wood and yield more wax. My guess is that the 8 frames might yield a little more honey than 9 as they are drawn out more with greater cell volume. (Not sure, tho'.) The bees seem to work very well with the extra "elbow room," which gradually is lessened as the combs are extended out. They appear to respect this extra-wide spacing in the honey-storage area without problems. Gives them a chance to do some wax construction. Another nice thing about 8's is that your handling is decreased by 11% when extracting (and each comb-unit holds more). Yes there is burr comb, often containing lots of honey. This is scraped right down during uncapping with a few fast sweeps of the uncapping knife, and the frame is clean again - no problem. ----/4 (good points! -John) ----5 A bonus here is that if you don't use excluders, and you don't uncap deep, the queens are more reluctant to lay in the extra deep cells that develop with the wide (8 frame) spacing, and tend to stay in the brood nest -- where normal 9 or 10 frame spacing is used. ---/5 ----6 After all the years since this controversy first started ie. less frames per super, I still question this. If we are into honey production are we not wasting honey making extra wax? A standard box with 10 frames will hold as much honey as an 8 frame, per volume. If, on extracting we cut the frame back to wood, are we not producing a lot more wax than necessary with a 10 frame set up, and therefore wasting honey on un-necessary wax production. A final point, with an 8 frame set up, you can't slip a frame into the brood box without cutting it around!!! ---/6 ----7 I believe we get about 40# average. It depends on how tight you super the bees. If they are crowded, they will stuff the heck out of them, and you could get a little more than 40. We use 8 and have about the same yeild in my opinion. I don't think the queens are as likely to lay them up with the combs spread further apart. ----/7 Thank you all!! Cheers, John in broilin' hot Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:49:16 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Permadent & Plasticell -- Summary Hello beekeepers! A few weeks ago I asked how the less expensive Permadent foundation (sold by Mann Lake and perhaps others) compares in quality to Dadant's Plasticell. Both are plastic foundation with plastic cell walls, and both are sold with a wax coating (optional on Dadant's). The general consensus among respondents seems to be that Permadent works just as well as Plasticell. Here are the replies (sorry if I missed a reply due to my quick delete key!): -----1 As far as I can tell they are the same. I've had good results with both. ----/1 ----2 I have used both and use permedent now because of the cost. I just bought 11 cases 2 weeks ago and need to get 2 more cases of the 5 5/8 for my supers. Permedent is more flexible and the cell definition is not as sharp. It works for me and I have over 2,000 frames with it in them. ----/2 ---3 I've experimented with plasticell and permadent. While permadent is less expensive, my bees have taken to it more readily than plasticell. I have no sound reasoning or conjecture for this, just practical experience. I've also found a competitive source: Lapp Bee Supply at 800-321-1960 -----/3 I've decided to go with the less expensive Permadent, to pop into the groove top & bottom frames. Thanks all!! Cheers, John in Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:49:41 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Replacing Old Brood Comb -- Summary I want to thank those who responded to my request for scientific evidence that replacing old brood combs may be good for the health and/or honey production of a colony. Below are the replies I received. Some replies were sent privatly so I have omitted authorship, and they have been edited for space. Much logical thinking, but surprisingly there were scientific studies were cited. -----1 I have done beekeeping over 10 years and have replaced old combs frequently. I thought always that the main reason is that if you don't replace your old combs your bees are getting smaller. And an another reason is that my friends want to have brighter honey. Honey from brood combs is a bit darker. -----/1 -----2 I'm really sceptical of this practice unless nearly all are replaced on a regular basis. The idea is that "minor" pathogens are doing damage and that clean new combs will reduce them. If only a few combs are replaced at a time , I don't see why the remaining combs will not keep the suspect pathogen active in the hive. I do know people who run all their used stuff thru a gamma ray sanitizer and they say the results are spectacular, the bees look like they are on new equipment. In my own experience, I cannot see any differance between colonies with all new combs and colonies with all very old (20-40 yrs) combs. ----/2 ---3 Sorry, no printed sources, but Bro. Adam wrote in an issue of American Bee Journal (two or three years ago) about culling old brood frames and I have heard Dr. Roger Morse say the same when speaking to the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association. Rationale being that pathogens collect in the frames that are used over and over again. In a natural setting the bees would either move up into their nesting cavity and abandon the aging brood comb or they would simply swarm and leave the old comb behing, which would then be consumed by wax moths, thereby cleaning up the abandoned cavity making it available for a new swarm of bees to occupy. The figures I recall for recycling old brood combs is five years (tough for a commercial operation but more doable for the hobbiest). ------/3 ----4 Cant say that I know of research on age of comb and its effecton the colony. My own opinion is that if you go on using comb until it contains just over 6% of drone cells and then scrap them. The comb rarely gets beyond five years old, most are replaced in about 3 years. -----/4 ----5 I have not seen any scientific data or papers on the removal of old combs. I have read several articles and listened to several lectures which advocate rotating old combs about every 5 years. The reason given is that toxins build up in the wax combs from the chemicals we put in the hive and the pollutants that the bees bring in. I have also heard some beekeepers say that they change so that the bees won' t become to small using an ever decreasing size cell to grow in. But then another beekeeper countered, "How small is to small". I attended a seminar this past weekend and one of the lecturers said that there is evidence that bees only survived 2 to 5 years in the same nest in the wild prior to domestication. They would either die out or abscond. Then the waxworms would clean up the wax and then bees moved back in and constructed new combs. I have started removing old combs a few years ago and I feel that it has contributed to the general health of my bees. All in all I would say that in the absence of something more definitive, it is a matter of preference when or if combs are rotated. ----/5 Thank you all for your perspectives on this. Cheers, John in Dallas (stilll looking for scientific evidence on this) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 07:16:49 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: Wax Moth > Hi All: Read somwhere that CO2 will kill wax moth eggs. Has any one > tryed to use Dry Ice ? One could stack up the supers and seal them > up with duct tape and put the dry ice on the top and the CO2 , being > heavier than air, will sink to the bottom as it sublimes. My references are not to hand, but like many things, it is an interaction - in this case % of CO2 and time. That is, you can allow a lower CO2 concentration if you are able to maintain the exposure over a longer period of time. So the thing you'd need to know is what sort of concentration can you get from X amount of dry ice, and can you maintain the gas tightness in the stack for the period of time required. I'll try to remember to look up the reference later. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:52:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Spear Comments: To: James Guy That is reassuring, Chris. I'm in southern California, in a small canyon in the northwest region of Los Angeles. The seasons are really good here for bees and the only threats are varroa and the possibility of Africanization, though the AHBs are still well south (100 kilometers, more or less). I lost the last two seasons to varroa and I intend to be *religious* about using Apistan, the legal application here in America. I work full time (forty hours a week here) and always look forward to fiddling with my bees on the weekends. I give my honey away at Christmas time and enjoys it year round. We probably have the same problems. My biggest is ants during the summer, when it is awfully dry here. Strong colonies have no problem, but my new hive has to be protected from them. I use a stand and "Tanglefoot" on the legs of the stand, but you have to check often, as ants are the most ingenious creatures ... the slightest opportunity allows them access to the hive. What about England? Are the problems similar? I've added the bee list to distribution, as they may be interested in this discussion. -- Richard rspear@primenet.com www.primenet.com/~rspear ---------- > From: James Guy > To: Richard Spear > Subject: RE: > Date: Sunday, June 30, 1996 1:43 PM > > > Hi there > > Yes James is my formal title, so the agreement with microsoft is in that name. > But I always use my middle name hence Chris. > > I think you will find her laying. > > Last year I gave a 3 frame nuc a queen cell to raise, after three weeks > nothing, kept checking, after 5 weeks decided that was it. I took the box to > one of my out apiaries, and began shaking out the bees in front of a hive. > > After shaking 2 frames I found brood!!! > > Put the lot back, and left them to it returned 2 days later to find one queen, > fat and healthy all OK. > > They are pretty hard to kill then. > > > Cheers Chris > > Ps Where in the world are you, I'm in Birmingham UK > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:32:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Victor M. Kroenke" Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Comments: To: James.Peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us James Peterson wrote: > > Hi Every one: > > Stainless Steel is corrosion resistant because of the > Chrome content in it's formulation. Type 316 has about 16.5 % > Chrome, 12 % Nickle, 2.5 % Molybdenum, 2% Manganese, 1 % Silicon, > 0.03 % Carbon in an Iron solution. A steel cannot qualify for the > stainless prefix untill it has at least 10.5% chromium. > > The Chrome migrates to the surface during processing and forms an > oxide that is extremly corrision ressistant. > > This is the same reason the bumpers on cars stay the way they do and > why I wished I had the money to buy a stainless extractor. > > James Peterson Ph. D. > Chemistry Teacher I am not familiar with 316 stainless steel but I do not believe it is food grade. 304 stainless is considered food grade stainless and most extracting equipment and storage tanks are of this type. Vic Kroenke ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:44:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Re: No Brood = Queenlessness? In-Reply-To: <<199606281913.AA16456@internode.net> > The other day I was adding a frame of eggs to a queenless hive in an > outyard (Too far to drive to get only one queen!) > > And I realised that we always add a frame of *eggs* -- not larvae -- where > possible in such a case. Sounds right to me. All newly hatched larvae are fed royal jelly for ? days and then the workers are fed bee bread while future queens are continued to be fed royal jelly. What I suppose can happen is a larva starts to be fed bee bread and then the bees start feeding it royal jelly as an emergency queen. If so such a queen would be runtier than a queen strictly fed royal jelly. The longer fed bee bread, the runtier the queen I guess. After 4 days any sealed queen cells would have to be old enough to have been fed bee bread, which would be why removing such cells would prevent runty queens. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:54:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Some odd queen questions I have a few questions/comments: First, I wanted to start a hive using ANP comb (supposedly fights Varroa) I followed the directions to transfer the hive to ANP which basically has you put a box of ANP on the bottom board, with bees and the queen, then a queen excluder, then the old combs with the brood. A few weeks later, after the brood emerges, replace the upstairs frames with ANP and remove the queen excluder. This hive was initially in 2 brood boxes and was temporarily in 3 boxes. Anyway, after 2 weeks I had a look. The ANP comb were essentially abandoned, no brood and only a few stray bees. Also no queen. The brood upstairs was sealed brood, and no emergency cells. So I needed a queen since they didn't start one of their own. So I ordered two (I decided to split the hive at the same time) I put the hive back together the way I found it except I didn't replace the queen excluder. Anyway when the queens showed up I opened up the hive and sure enough, lots of young brood. I soon found the old queen! The ANP comb was still ignored. Where was she? What I then did was to take most of the frames and set them up in 2 new hives. with the 2 new queens (so I wound up splitting them 3 ways). Anyway I removed the cork from the candy end, poked a nail through the candy and put the queens with bees in the hives. A week later I opened them up and both queens were still in the cages, and the candy was untouched. Does the candy trick work? I ask this because last year I placed a new hive on a friends yard with a new queen and a home-made package. I was unable to get back there for 3 1/2 weeks. The poor queen was still in the cage! The candy was untouched then as well, and all attendants in the cage were dead. Also one of the hives with the new queens had 2 queen cells started when I opened it up. The larva were rather young. There was no other young brood. How large would a queen larva be assuming the egg was laid just before I opened the hive up exactly a week before? I am wondering about an earlier thread asking whether bees moved eggs and someone commented that a caged queen may have laid eggs through the screen and bees placed them in cells and started queens. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:53:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dennis A. Meeks" Subject: Re: Queens and the postal dept. At 01:04 PM 6/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >>Approved-By: HYBRIBEES@AOL.COM >>Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 09:52:24 -0400 >>Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology >>Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >>From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" >>Subject: Re: Queens and the postal dept. >>To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L >> > >I work for the Postal Service, and what Dean has stated previously is very >true,unfortunately. You have to alert your local post office,pick up your >package at that office,and give them your phone number.I have received many >packaged bees,where the address or phone number had been smeared with sugar >syrup or some other debris.The bee breeders should also have a better >labeling system.The postal workers have been trained to read the customer's >address,not any side notes. Maybe if the breeder sticks a label to the >package, it will help.I have tried to educate my fellow workers about the >proper handling of bees.I will again talk to the District of Maine Postal >Management Officers.Remember-not everyone likes to handle bees,especially >when bees are clinging outside the package!! Let me know about complaints in >Maine. > >MIDNITEBEE@CYBERTOURS.COM > >P.S. Queen breeders should send their bees in a crush-proof package - for >example, the Post Office provides free of charge a two-day delivery >envelope. My name is Dennis Meeks, and I also work for the Postal Service and keep bees. I usually have to bees shipped to me at the address of the Post Office where I want to pick them up..with my name in the ATTN: line, and my home phone number with "Call On Arrival" indicated, should they arrive when I'm not there! It just so happened that was the case this year, and I received three (3) calles from different people at the post office..two of which I didn't know personally. My point is others might try this so that bees are not left in hot mailboxes. I would also think that breeders would be more than happy to adjust their mailing/billing addresses to assist in providing the best possible condition of their product upon arrival! Check with your local Postmaster prior to ordering and make similar arrangements. Worth a try! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:22:04 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Is 316 stainless steel food grade? 316 stainless is very well suited to food applications. The reason you won't see it very often in honey equipment is that 316 stainless is more expensive than 304 stainless (which also works well in most food applications). The food application where I would specify 316 stainless would be one with a lot of salt (example: pickling solutions). FYI: 316 stainless is now the material of choice for reactor coolant system piping in nuclear power plants. 304 stainless gave trouble. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD