Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id AE7E30010A; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:45:02 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2786; Thu, 14 Nov 96 10:49:34 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6970; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:49:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:49:31 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9607E" To: "W. Allen Dick" X-UIDL: 595 Status: U ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:06:30 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Bee genetic change after toxic substance exposure Hi; We can now inform you that our web page carries details of my conference discussion, from the Australian Chemical Trauma Alliance Inc Conference. Trust you fine this informative. Regards, Dr Brian Goble PhD. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Formic Acid In-Reply-To: On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Richard Chapin wrote: > >>Does anyone on the BEE-L know how the quest to have formic acid approved for > >>use in the U.S. doing? >etc. > >I attended a seminar a few weeks ago and the consensus among the scientist > >attending, was that formic acid would be approved, at least for limited use, >etc > We were told at our association meeting that EPA was holding up the > approval of formic acid and would require many months before approval. I > wrote to my congressman, he wrote to EPA, & they responded that the > approved producer (will look up the name after EAS next week, if anyone > wants it -- think it is Mann Lake) had not yet submitted a proposal. I > called the producer, and was told that they had submitted two proposals, > both rejected (EPA doesn't recognize rejected proposals), and that a third > proposal was imminent. When asked if we might look for approval by this > fall, the answer was: don't count on it. > Dick Chapin > Montrose, PA > Susquehanna Beekeepers' Assn. > If you don't mind using Formic Acid prior to your governments approval, i would suggest that any of you who live close to Canada, find some way of buying it here and then take it back....It is a valuable treatment...and i dont understand what the delay is.....Formic acid is in Honey anyways....and formic ants are full of it...maybe Big Brother should ban those things too... Just my 2 cents worth...2.6 Canadian.. Ian Watson iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 10:26:44 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wilson Subject: Re: Formic Acid In-Reply-To: While Formic Acid is found in honey and ants, this does not make FORMIC ACID a benign substance. It is an acid that burns flesh without pain. When you can smell the fumes you have done damage to your lungs. Many beekeepers have experienced loss queenloss using formic. This is not a MITE PANACEA. FORMIC ACID is dangerous stuff to fool around with even if it is CHEAP. My fear is that because Formic is so cheap , beekeepers will forgo forgo testing for mites. Don't be too hasty to run the border with Formic Acid. The jury is still out on FORMIC ACID. regards Peter Wilson pjwilson@freenet.edmonton.ca On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Ian Watson wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Richard Chapin wrote: > > > >>Does anyone on the BEE-L know how the quest to have formic acid approved for > > >>use in the U.S. doing? > >etc. > > >I attended a seminar a few weeks ago and the consensus among the scientist > > >attending, was that formic acid would be approved, at least for limited use, > >etc > > We were told at our association meeting that EPA was holding up the > > approval of formic acid and would require many months before approval. I > > wrote to my congressman, he wrote to EPA, & they responded that the > > approved producer (will look up the name after EAS next week, if anyone > > wants it -- think it is Mann Lake) had not yet submitted a proposal. I > > called the producer, and was told that they had submitted two proposals, > > both rejected (EPA doesn't recognize rejected proposals), and that a third > > proposal was imminent. When asked if we might look for approval by this > > fall, the answer was: don't count on it. > > Dick Chapin > > Montrose, PA > > Susquehanna Beekeepers' Assn. > > > If you don't mind using Formic Acid prior to your governments approval, i > would suggest that any of you who live close to Canada, find some way of > buying it here and then take it back....It is a valuable treatment...and i > dont understand what the delay is.....Formic acid is in Honey > anyways....and formic ants are full of it...maybe Big Brother should ban > those things too... > Just my 2 cents worth...2.6 Canadian.. > > Ian Watson > iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 16:28:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Formic Acid RC>We were told at our association meeting that EPA was holding up the >approval of formic acid and would require many months before approval. I >wrote to my congressman, he wrote to EPA, & they responded that the >approved producer (will look up the name after EAS next week, if anyone >wants it -- think it is Mann Lake) had not yet submitted a proposal. I >called the producer, and was told that they had submitted two proposals, >both rejected (EPA doesn't recognize rejected proposals), and that a third >proposal was imminent. When asked if we might look for approval by this >fall, the answer was: don't count on it. >Dick Chapin >Montrose, PA >Susquehanna Beekeepers' Assn. RC> (\ > {|||8- > (/ This really illustrates the failure of our EPA and chemical regulatory system and is one item that should be changed. Registration for a material like this should not need the support of any sales origination or chemical company which will do no more then add to the retail cost of it like the strips now used which contain a few cents worth of material that any other farmer could buy and apply without a problem. There is no reason formic acid could not be sponsored for minor use by any research agency of a university or the USDA themselves or even a local beekeeping group. It is not a new chemical, or one with inherent dangers to the public or the beekeeper, only a new use of a old natural occurring chemical, and one at that which has been approved in other countries. Not to have it available for use in the US puts the US beekeeper at a competitive disadvantage to other beekeepers in more enlightened countries. If the chemical has been documented and demonstrated to bee safe and effective it should be allowed and all beekeepers and beekeeper groups in the US should do what your group has done and make contact with there political representatives and follow up on these. We all should look to our neighbors to the north and see what government process they use to protect their small farmers in situations like this and work to see the US process is changed as this is only one of hopefully a large number of old natural materials that beekeepers in the US may want to use in the near future or face the loss of a large part of the beekeeping industry to match what some are reporting from the feral honeybees. All one has to do is go to your local grocery, drug, or hardware store and you will find hundreds of hard chemicals being sold to anyone who has the cash without any common sense training like most of us receive daily on the bee farm. Why should we expect less and we should demand no less for the treatments we need to keep our bees healthy for beekeepers with one hive or tens of thousands. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in an form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Honey is sweeter than wine. Spreads on bread better too! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:11:27 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: Formic Acid At 16:28 28/07/96 GMT, Andy wrote: >..All one has to do is go to your local grocery, drug, or hardware store >and you will find hundreds of hard chemicals being sold to anyone who >has the cash without any common sense training like most of us receive >daily on the bee farm... > ttul Andy- Perhaps is because is not the same to pour borax on the toilet than honey in your cereal... Cheers. Mauricio :) ********************************************************************** "Heredity is nothing but stored environment" -Luther Burbank- Mauricio Montes Castillo (DVM, M.Ag.) Ph: (617) 3365-2580 Dept. of Farm Animal Medicine & Production FAX: (617) 3365-1288 The University of Queensland Brisbane, QLD 4072 Australia. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:32:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Formic Acid In-Reply-To: On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Peter Wilson wrote: > While Formic Acid is found in honey and ants, this does not make FORMIC > ACID a benign substance. > > It is an acid that burns flesh without pain. > > When you can smell the fumes you have done damage to your lungs. > > Many beekeepers have experienced loss queenloss using formic. > > This is not a MITE PANACEA. > > FORMIC ACID is dangerous stuff to fool around with even if it is CHEAP. > > My fear is that because Formic is so cheap , beekeepers will forgo > > forgo testing for mites. > > Don't be too hasty to run the border with Formic Acid. > > The jury is still out on FORMIC ACID. > > > regards > > Peter Wilson The jury is certainly in on Formic acid...and I'm a little surprised that a fellow Canadian wouldn't be aware of it....since we've been able to use it for a while now... I never said that formic acid was a benign substance or that it was a panacea....and as far as queen loss....if you use formic acid at the recommended rate, this should be quite rare.... Battery acid can burn flesh....and inhaling carbon monoxide can kill you....but with due care and responsibility, these substances are QUITE SAFE. Also, if we prove to sufficiently bother honeybees, we can expect to be stung...sometimes several times...but we use precautions, smoke and our abilities of observation....and come away with as few stings as possible Point being....Formic acid is a reasonably safe and effective treatment... Regards, Ian Watson iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:26:06 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Pearce Organization: Dept of Biochemistry Subject: Re: Abandon hives Here's a crazy idea: If the bees have glued the frames to the point where they won't move, place the old hive body _upside down_ on the bottom board and the new one on top (right side up). Hopefully the queen will reject the cells sloped the wrong way and eventually wander upstairs and find cells more to her liking. Once you know where she is separate her from the old body with a queen excluder until the brood emerges. -Mike Yep, maybe, I have also found hitting the bottom of the frames with a mallet once the hive body is inverted helps loosen them, it only requires gentle taps, and only takes a few moments to do it (only hit the edges of the sidebars as the bottom bars are not strong enough and break. Pushing from the bottom is less likely to destroy the frame if the top-bars are pulling off. PS wear a good amount of protection when doing this. Steve Pearce Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:36:19 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Pearce Organization: Dept of Biochemistry Subject: Scottish beekeepers only!! Hi there, I don't know how many of you are there, could you identify yourselves by sending me a simple mail (direct), so I have an idea of our "membership" on the list. Is there anybody out there who knows a beekeeper in Glenrothes (or nearby) who will help someone hive a 6 week old swarm which they have in a cardboard carton (probably wild comb needs tying into frames) The person has already bought a hive for their "free bees"...and are waiting for some assistance thanks in anticipation Steve Pearce Kilspindie Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:21:21 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Formic Acid In-Reply-To: <960728104701758@beenet.com> In article <960728104701758@beenet.com>, Andy Nachbaur writes > It is not a new chemical, or one with >inherent dangers to the public or the beekeeper, only a new use of a ^^^^^^^^ >old natural occurring chemical, and one at that which has been approved >in other countries. Andy, I think that this statement is a little missleading. My understanding is that formic acid is a particular nasty chemical and should really be used in a fume cupboard. I believe that it can also be absorbed through the skin. It is not, therefore, without danger to the beekeeper. -- Paul Walton Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. Tel. +44 (0)1525 875570 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:48:39 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Formic Acid Comments: To: Paul Walton > Subject: Re: Formic Acid To:b-liners Formic acid is widely used as a preservative of silage. It is also used in textile dyeing, leather tanning, coagulation of latex rubber and electroplating and resin manufacturing. In addition, it is widely used in synthesis of chemicals and pharmaceuticals. The toxicology and occupational exposure hazards have been studied and reported in the literature. The highest concentration of formic acid was detected in silge making workers and there only few reported cases of formic acid poisoning in the current literature. Medhat Nasr, Ph.D. Ontario beekeepers' Association, c/o Dept. Evironmental Biology University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario Canada N1G 2W1 in textile dying> > > It is not a new chemical, or one with > >inherent dangers to the public or the beekeeper, only a new use of a > ^^^^^^^^ > >old natural occurring chemical, and one at that which has been approved > >in other countries. > > > Andy, > > I think that this statement is a little missleading. > > My understanding is that formic acid is a particular nasty chemical and > should really be used in a fume cupboard. I believe that it can also be > absorbed through the skin. It is not, therefore, without danger to the > beekeeper. > > > -- > Paul Walton > Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk > Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. > Tel. +44 (0)1525 875570 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:33:38 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Re: Swarming then queenless In-Reply-To: STEVE PHILLIPS "Swarming then queenless" (Jul 26, 9:14am) On Jul 26, 9:14am, STEVE PHILLIPS wrote: > Subject: Swarming then queenless > In the area I live, northeast Kansas, swarming has been unusually bad > for everyone, I guess because it was an unusually wet spring. The > swarms were all very late for this area, all after June 1. Five of my six > hives swarmed, one in mid July. > > All of my hives that swarmed ended up queenless. I have heard many > other beekeepers in the area have had the same problem. What causes > queenlessness after a swarm. My hives that swarmed all had empty > queen cells in them. Where did the queens go? > > -Steve Phillips- > -Perry, KS- > phillips@at01po.wpo.state.ks.us >-- End of excerpt from STEVE PHILLIPS Hi Steve, You're not alone. We had a very poor spring in Western Washington. It rained from February through part of June, almost nonstop. I had the same problem as you in five out of eight hives. Swarm, empty queen cells, queenless. I ordered new queens for these colonies in June, now they're doing better. Several other in my bee club had identical problems. Does anyone out there know what causes this? Kris Bruland Member of Mt. Baker Beekeepers Association Bellingham, WA U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:44:56 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Editing BEE-L logs for the FAQ, call for volunteers! Responses to my call for volunteers to edit BEE-L logs have prompted a few questions from potential volunteers: > I might very well volunteer to do some of the editing, but I'm not > sure I understand the plan. Do you contemplate having a volunteer for > each thread? Assuming that is the case, what order of magnitude of > individual posts would have to be edited down? How far back do the > logs go? Would I download the logs to my computer, and if so how much > disk space would I need to do that? My thoughts on the matter were that a volunteer would choose a topic of interest to them. I have already identified the logs which contain information regarding specific topics. Some subjects are covered in relatively few logs, other subjects have been discussed extensively over a long period of time, hence there may be many large logs to peruse and edit. For instance, the discussion of bee myths and fables was covered in a single log (BEE-L LOG9312) which was 3859 lines long, and the discussion edited down to 156 lines. On the other hand, the discussion on Apistan spans more than a dozen logs over four years and I haven't even attempted the before/after figures. BEE-L logs go back to July '89. I will be happy to send pertinent logs on any topic directly to any volunteer, sparing them the download procedure. Remember, the deal is I send the information to volunteers who agree to send back summaries. Any takers? Some common threads include: acids, african honeybees, allergies, ants, apistan, bears, bees, beekeeping, books, breed, brood, boy scout merit badge, buckfast, bumblebee, candles, chalkbrood, dented bees, equipment, extraction, fables, feeding, foulbrood, foundation, gloves, hive, honey, honeybee, insurance, dance language, purple loosestrife, lotion, mites, moving hives, nosema, nucs, observation hives, packaged bees, plastic, pollen and pollination, propolis, queens, smoke, sting, subscribing and unsubscribing, swarms, venom, virus, wax, wintering bees and yellow jackets. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:17:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Alain Hannart Organization: Beenet the computer network for beekeepers Subject: Apistsn stuips MSGID: 240:232/100 31f5501c REPLY: 2:254/215 7c86209b Hello IWATSON@FREENET.NPIEC.ON.CA! Thursday July 18 1996 23:35, IWATSON@FREENET.NPIEC.ON.CA wrote to ALL: >> I'll try again.... My question, What about re-using apistan >> stuips? Can you re-seal the strips after their first use and use >> them again for the next treatment? Yes, or no, and why or why not? >> Thanks, >> Tom Padgett >> Auburn, AL >> I> Well.....after using the strips for therequired and recommended 6 I> weeks, the level of chemical (fluvalinate) in the strips has reached a I> low point because of it migrating to the surface of the plastic. So I> re-using them would serve no purpose but to make the mites immune to I> the Fluvalinate because the level of it in the hive is too low to kill I> most mites and the ones that survive would be tolerant to I agree with what you said. But what is important is that all beekeeper in a same region put the strips in a same time. That the efficacity of the strips !! Alain --- GoldED 2.50 UNREG * Origin: Beenet, Host in BELGIUM (240:232/100) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:07:29 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: Re: Editing BEE-L logs for the FAQ, call for volunteers! At 01:44 PM 7/29/96 EDT, you wrote: Any takers? Okay, I volunteer to handle the shortest one you have on hand, and If I get along with that one, I'll do more. Subject: immaterial ength: key (I believe in easing into things which I don't completely understand, in hopes that someday I will.) Guy F. Miller 2025 Spottswood Rd. Charlottesville, VA 22903 (804) 296-0090 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:55:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Florentine Subject: ground nesting bumblebees I have just joined you list because I am having a great deal of difficulty finding any information on the web on ground nesting bumblebees. We have developed a large colony in the ground outside our back door. I have tried spraying but seem to be doing more damage to the herb garden then to the bees. I really don't want to kill them but would like them to find another home. Whenever we try to cover or fill their holes they just seem to burrow other holes. Our extension service told us we have to kill the queen but they have no suggestions of how to do this. Can anyone help me with information about getting the bumblebees to find another home? We live in Rochester, NY. Karen Florentine byers@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:37:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: ground nesting bumblebees -Reply Karen, Try pouring soapy water down the holes, especially if you have any borax type detergent. Works great, and won't hurt much else! Gerry Visel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:42:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Swarming then queenless In a message dated 96-07-29 12:38:55 EDT, you write: << Several other in my bee club had identical problems. Does anyone out there know what causes this? Kris Bruland Member of Mt. Baker Beekeepers Association Bellingham, WA U.S.A. >> It is not unusual to experence as high as 60 percent loss of Virgins on their mating flights if all is not well with the weather and drone source etc. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:36:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Formic Acid PW>From: Paul Walton >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:21:21 +0100 >Subject: Re: Formic Acid > writes >> It is not a new chemical, or one with >>inherent dangers to the public or the beekeeper, only a new use of a >>old natural occurring chemical, and one at that which has been approved >>in other countries. > PW>I think that this statement is a little missleading. PW>My understanding is that formic acid is a particular nasty chemical and >should really be used in a fume cupboard. I believe that it can also be >absorbed through the skin. It is not, therefore, without danger to the >beekeeper. Hi Paul, Misunderstood, but not at all misleading, at least not here in the US. One only has to read the not so user friendly labels of the products available at your local garden supply store. Many of these here are located in big chain drug stores and grocery stores. Formic acid is not all that bad if the label precautions are followed. No more then hundreds of off the shelf everyday use products that can be purchased with the only requirement being the cash in hand. We have mouse baits laced with peanut oil, yum, yum, that will kill a 60# mouse. These look no different then good granola and I have in fact handed the one shot packages to visitors and asked them to smell and try them and had to take them back as they proceed to open the package and give it the old taste test. One of these products had to be pulled because no antidote was known. It was changed so it will only kill a 30# mouse. Another garden product still available has never failed to kill anyone who deliberately ingested it intent on death. Some everyday cleaning products such as household bleach and ammonia when combined in some years takes as many lives accidentally in the US as honeybee stings. My point is that though some would prevent the sale of all these products in the interest of safety, they can be used with safety when a little common sense is applied along with the product. The first among these would be to read the label. And I suggest that beekeepers are as good or better then the general public in having this common sense and ability to read. Another case would be the loss of cynogas as a treatment for combs in storage. Wax moths, mice, and surly people could be killed with this product. It was replaced with another product, phostoxin, now in use that costs 20 times as much, requires training, and a licence to use. The cautions and dangers are identical and use are identical to the use of cynogas. Fire still used every day in many homes can kill, and if not used with common sense will not only kill the user but can escape and do much damage to the neighborhood. I am sure there are many reasons to stop the use of fire in homes and those in society that would do so. Sure Formic Acid has some cautions when used, but they are no different then many of the products we use everyday with little problems in spite of the risks. It's main stumbling block in the US is the fact it will cut into the sales of the one existing product and sadly this is enough to hold it up for years as long as politics and money are the fuel of our EPA and regulatory systems. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:03:02 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Formic Acid ---------------Original Message--------------- While Formic Acid is found in honey and ants, this does not make FORMIC ACID a benign substance. It is an acid that burns flesh without pain. When you can smell the fumes you have done damage to your lungs. Many beekeepers have experienced loss queenloss using formic. This is not a MITE PANACEA. FORMIC ACID is dangerous stuff to fool around with even if it is CHEAP. My fear is that because Formic is so cheap , beekeepers will forgo forgo testing for mites. Don't be too hasty to run the border with Formic Acid. The jury is still out on FORMIC ACID. regards Peter Wilson pjwilson@freenet.edmonton.ca Peter; Having suffered from tracheal mites for the last two years, and having treated with formic this year, using pads, I have to say that formic is great, in our case formic worked far better than menthol. I will definetly be using formic again, by the way queen loss was negligable. The hives are doing better this year than they have in the last three, and it sure hasn't had anything to do with the weather. IMHO. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Ian Watson wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Richard Chapin wrote: > > > >>Does anyone on the BEE-L know how the quest to have formic acid approved for > > >>use in the U.S. doing? > >etc. > > >I attended a seminar a few weeks ago and the consensus among the scientist > > >attending, was that formic acid would be approved, at least for limited use, > >etc > > We were told at our association meeting that EPA was holding up the > > approval of formic acid and would require many months before approval. I > > wrote to my congressman, he wrote to EPA, & they responded that the > > approved producer (will look up the name after EAS next week, if anyone > > wants it -- think it is Mann Lake) had not yet submitted a proposal. I > > called the producer, and was told that they had submitted two proposals, > > both rejected (EPA doesn't recognize rejected proposals), and that a third > > proposal was imminent. When asked if we might look for approval by this > > fall, the answer was: don't count on it. > > Dick Chapin > > Montrose, PA > > Susquehanna Beekeepers' Assn. > > > If you don't mind using Formic Acid prior to your governments approval, i > would suggest that any of you who live close to Canada, find some way of > buying it here and then take it back....It is a valuable treatment...and i > dont understand what the delay is.....Formic acid is in Honey > anyways....and formic ants are full of it...maybe Big Brother should ban > those things too... > Just my 2 cents worth...2.6 Canadian.. > > Ian Watson > iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:16:43 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Formic Acid Fear not fellow bee-l'er's. I 'm sure we will soon have the final word any day as I sent the following request for clarification . W alter >To: hshimanuki@asrr.arsusda.gov >From: hihoney@ilhawaii.net (Walter Patton) >Subject: Formic Acid > >Dear Dr. Shimanuki > Would you comment on the issue of using Formic Acid with honeybees. >I enclose the following commentary on the Bee-L subscriber list and there >seems to be a lot of confussion about the use of Formic acid. > Thank you Walter Patton >On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Peter Wilson wrote: > >> While Formic Acid is found in honey and ants, this does not make FORMIC >> ACID a benign substance. >> >> It is an acid that burns flesh without pain. >> >> When you can smell the fumes you have done damage to your lungs. >> >> Many beekeepers have experienced loss queenloss using formic. >> >> This is not a MITE PANACEA. >> >> FORMIC ACID is dangerous stuff to fool around with even if it is CHEAP. >> >> My fear is that because Formic is so cheap , beekeepers will forgo >> >> forgo testing for mites. >> >> Don't be too hasty to run the border with Formic Acid. >> >> The jury is still out on FORMIC ACID. >> >> >> regards >> >> Peter Wilson > > >The jury is certainly in on Formic acid...and I'm a little surprised that >a fellow Canadian wouldn't be aware of it....since we've been able to use >it for a while now... > >I never said that formic acid was a benign substance or that it was a >panacea....and as far as queen loss....if you use formic acid at the >recommended rate, this should be quite rare.... > >Battery acid can burn flesh....and inhaling carbon monoxide can kill >you....but with due care and responsibility, these substances are QUITE >SAFE. Also, if we prove to sufficiently bother honeybees, we can expect >to be stung...sometimes several times...but we use precautions, smoke and >our abilities of observation....and come away with as few stings as >possible > >Point being....Formic acid is a reasonably safe and effective treatment... > >Regards, > Ian Watson > iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca > Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 21:16:56 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Organization: N/A Subject: Re: Suggestions please... Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 wrote: > Anyway, 2 questions. > > If I harvest Hive #2's honey supers in early August will they > have time and space to store enough honey for the winter in the deeps? > Here in New England bee winter with 2 deeps. > > For hive #1 are there tactics that I could have used or can be > used to get the brood chamber back in the bee baby busines and out of the > honey storage business? > I can not answer question one, but using all one sized frames allows one to move frames around to keep the brood nest open. It is much easier to get things moving if you have the freedom to move frames. But, the difference may be somewhere else. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Re: ground nesting bumblebees In-Reply-To: Just a few thoughts- 1) Probably one of the reasons your having a problem spraying them is many var. live in burrows that are quite deep. The spray isn't reaching them. I once stopped digging for a nest after I had dug well ovver my head. (5foot 7inches) 2)In your climate in N.Y. the bumbles will not be able to overwinter so if all else fails the problem will be dealt with in time. 3) Now for an idea - Try devising a bee escape one that allows them to go out and not return. i.e. a ccone of window screen with the entrance squezed flat so that the bees can push theeir way out of the narrow end but won't be able to return. If this is unclear email me back. I'll try to think of a better way to describe it. Good luck, John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center E:3 G:3 N:2 L:3 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:55:00 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wayne Rumball Subject: Re: ground nesting bumblebees At 07:11 PM 7/29/96 -0400, you wrote: > >I have just joined you list because I am having a great deal of difficulty >finding any information on the web on ground nesting bumblebees. We have >developed a large colony in the ground outside our back door. I have tried >spraying but seem to be doing more damage to the herb garden then to the >bees. I really don't want to kill them but would like them to find another >home. Whenever we try to cover or fill their holes they just seem to >burrow other holes. Our extension service told us we have to kill the >queen but they have no suggestions of how to do this. Can anyone help me >with information about getting the bumblebees to find another home? We >live in Rochester, NY. >Karen Florentine >byers@chesco.com > I've successfully used the following method to get rid of yellow jackets in the ground and under the eaves of the house: Hook up a shop-vac with the end of the hose at the entrance to the colony and let it run for a couple hours. As the bumble bees go in and out of the colony they get sucked into the vacuum. When your done, spray some insecticide into the hose to kill what you trapped, tape up the end of the hose and leave it for a couple days to make sure everything is dead. You may have to do this a couple times, but I've only had to use 1 "treatment" for yellow jackets. Wayne Rumball ODEM International Inc., Montreal, Quebec ODEM@gm.gamemaster.qc.ca Tel: 514-974-1412 Fax: 514-974-1450 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:15:53 +22324924 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Yellowjacket Control In-Reply-To: from "Wayne Rumball" at Jul 30, 96 07:55:00 am Hi. There are archived at the following URL, a few good yellowjacket controls. http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/general/yellowjackets/ If you utilize this archive, or one like it, then you may acquire exactly what you want, and the bee list doesn't have to read about twenty - five ways to control yellowjackets, again. :) Adam -- _________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:19:15 +0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Painter Subject: Honey/Brood in supers I checked my hives yesterday. I have one with three supers and one with one. The one with three had caped about 2/3 down on most of the frames some more some less on the top super. on the next super down there was brood that took up about 1/3 of the center of the frames about half caped half in the lava stage. I did not look at the last super figuring that it had about the same situation as the second. Is this "normal" should I wait till the brood is hatched or just until they are caped? Did I do something wrong to encourage this? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Honey/Brood in supers -Reply Bill, Brood in the supers means the queen was there... To stop this, either use a queen excluder below the supers (...making sure the queen is below...) and/or make sure your bottom super or top hive body is full of honey. (The queen won't cross honey to lay above it.) Putting an excluder on now will trap any emerging drones up there, but they can be given a top exit with a small rock under the top cover. It's a bit like closing the barn door after the horse is gone, as prevention sure is better than the cure on this one. Note: if you move the super with brood very far above honey supers, the nurse bees up there will think they are queenless and might start supersedure cells. Watch for them. Have fun! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:12:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Albert W. Needham" Subject: Re: ground nesting bumblebees In a message dated 96-07-29 19:00:34 EDT, you write: << I really don't want to kill them but would like them to find another home. >> I am surprised that no one has asked the question..Why do you want to kill them so readily??? Bumblebees are pretty non-aggressive harmless creatures. You have to go out of your way to get one to sting you.! They are probably just a "temporary" annoyance. Can't you just walk around them? They will shortly be gone in early fall! Everything has a right to live. Suppose one of your neighbors found you, or a member of your family, or even just your cat or dog annoying. How would you feel if their first reaction was "Kill It! It annoys me!". It is not the same thing as a ground nest of little yellow type hornets that are very quick to attack and you have little kids around.. Neither have you stated that someone in your family has allergic reactions to venom! Is there something innately wrong with us human beings that our first reaction to some living thing that annoys us is "KILL IT!". Don't mistake me, some things regettably have to be dealt with, i.e., killed because they represent a great danger to the life and well being of humans. But, I just do not understand this immediate feeling of "KIll It..it annoys me!". That is why the world is in such a damn ecological mess..we simply do not seem to give one hoot about our environment, each other, or other living things. Everything has its role in life. Where do we get off thinking that we are the superior life species? The odds are very good that in the end, we human beings will be extinct because we have either murdered or bombed each other into oblivion or we will be unable to live in the polluted atmosphere we ourselves have created. The lowly cock roach will probably out last all human life. I am surprised that you so-called Honey Bee lovers are so quick to come up with "Kill Solutions!" so quickly! How do you bee lovers feel about those people who want to immediately "spray, stomp or otherwise squash" every honey bee that they see? Some of your neighbors, I am certain, would like to spray nasty chemicals on each and every one of your honeybees. Also, remember that Bumblebees are much more highly efficient pollinators than honey bees! (Thinking of your herb garden) My unsolicited 2 cents.. Al Needham Hobbyist Scituate, MA, USA alwine@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 12:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Apistsn stuips In-Reply-To: <9607261928365774@amigabee.posnet.co.uk> On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Alain Hannart wrote: > MSGID: 240:232/100 31f5501c > REPLY: 2:254/215 7c86209b > Hello IWATSON@FREENET.NPIEC.ON.CA! > > Thursday July 18 1996 23:35, IWATSON@FREENET.NPIEC.ON.CA wrote to ALL: > > >> I'll try again.... My question, What about re-using apistan > >> stuips? Can you re-seal the strips after their first use and use > >> them again for the next treatment? Yes, or no, and why or why not? > >> Thanks, > >> Tom Padgett > >> Auburn, AL > >> > I> Well.....after using the strips for therequired and recommended 6 > I> weeks, the level of chemical (fluvalinate) in the strips has reached a > I> low point because of it migrating to the surface of the plastic. So > I> re-using them would serve no purpose but to make the mites immune to > I> the Fluvalinate because the level of it in the hive is too low to kill > I> most mites and the ones that survive would be tolerant to > > I agree with what you said. > But what is important is that all beekeeper in a same region put the strips in > a same time. That the efficacity of the strips !! > Alain > > --- GoldED 2.50 UNREG > * Origin: Beenet, Host in BELGIUM (240:232/100) > I think that is an interesting idea....but the real purpose is to treat your own bees....unless i'm missunderstanding you..... Ian Watson iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:29:44 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joy Stonell Subject: Beekeeping in schools Help needed: I work in a small residential school in the South of England for boys 10 - 16 years of age. We have established a small apiary in the school grounds which I would like to further develop into a teaching or activity resource to encourage the boys to get involved in beecraft. With this in mind I would appreciate help with ideas and suggestions for a programme of study or projects etc. which could be used with the boys in and out of the classroom. Many Thanks Alan Stonell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 12:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Beekeeping in schools -Reply Alan, We use an observation hive, (3 or 4 frames mounted vertically behind glass, with a tube through the wall to outside,) with great success. A hive that small can get congested and swarmy during the summer, though, so it needs to be observed often then. There are also lots of ideas in the monthlies Bee Culture and American Beekeeping Journal. (One by Dadants and one by A. I. Root Co.) Good luck! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:07:51 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Volunteers to edit BEE-L logs Thank you for your offer to help edit BEE-L LOGS. I've spent a good deal of time "refining" my program which peruses the logs searching for specific topics. Unfortunately I've again discovered that nothing's as easy as it looks! First I wrote my program to examine only the "Subject:" header to see if the post was of interest. I soon discovered that this test was inadequate because of the manner in which posters use "Subject:" headers. For instance, a good deal of information on "BEARS" got skipped over because the discussion took place under a subject hearer of "I got visited". I then modified my program so that it extracted any and all discussion that included even the most remote reference to the item of interest in the body of the posting. Unfortunately, the results were unbearably verbose, including references to bee beards, fruit bearing, everbearing and please bear with me. I've also run into some problems such as: bees wax vs bee's wax vs beeswax. So I'm still at the drawing board. I'll continue to hack away at this and will keep the list posted of my progress. Bear in mind that I have a real job too! /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: Re: Volunteers to edit BEE-L logs At 03:07 PM 7/30/96 EDT, you wrote: I'm not sure I can bear any more details! I'm retired, so I just hang around twenty four hours a day. Actually I only hang around the six I'm awake, so let me know how I can help - at your convenience. No rush. I don't believe in rushing. Guy F. Miller 2025 Spottswood Rd. Charlottesville, VA 22903 (804) 296-0090 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:05:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barbara Larson Subject: Re: ground nesting bumblebees -Reply Won't that kill the hive, which they said they didn't want to do? At 06:37 PM 7/29/96 -0500, you wrote: >Karen, > > Try pouring soapy water down the holes, especially if you have any >borax type detergent. Works great, and won't hurt much else! > >Gerry Visel > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 23:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Honey/Brood in supers In-Reply-To: <9607301325.AA0140@BILLP.CDP.STATE.NE.US> Hi Bill, I'm not an expert on this but my experience is that you should use a queen excluder between your two bottom brood supers and the honey supers that go on top. Some only use one brood chamber and put the excluder between it and subsequent honey supers. Others do not use excluders at all. My experience is that using two supers helps prevent swarming. If i didn't use an excluder i got brood in with the honey. I prefer clean honey so I always use excluders. Hope this helps. By the way I'am a beginner, this is my third year, I have three hives, all of them very active. One is six supers high. I plan to extract this weekend. Cheers, Doug Henry, Lockport, Manitoba. On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Bill Painter wrote: > > I checked my hives yesterday. I have one with three supers and one with > one. The one with three had caped about 2/3 down on most of the frames some > more some less on the top super. on the next super down there was brood > that took up about 1/3 of the center of the frames about half caped half in > the lava stage. I did not look at the last super figuring that it had about > the same situation as the second. > > Is this "normal" should I wait till the brood is hatched or just until they > are caped? Did I do something wrong to encourage this? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 00:04:15 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: sci.agriculture.beekeeping I have seen people talk about "following" sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Is this a list? Try as I might, I have not been able to find out how to subscribe to it if it is. I hope some one will have mercy on a new-BEE (pardon the pun) and tell me how to subscribe to it if it is a list, and if not, WHAT IT IS! Thanks, Steve in Knoxville, TN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:55:24 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MR G JOHNSTON Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: BEEKEEPING IN SCHOOLS - RE Alan With respect to the possibility of using observation hives for educational purposes, I have found that it is useful to build it basically out of wood with only one obsevation "window". This stops moisture build-up in humid climates, which you may or may-not experience in your part of the world. In our situation there was a lot of moisture build-up which the bees struggled to rectify because the hive entrance only consists of a tube. This led to quite a large infestation of waxmoth (Galleria sp.) which, although detrimental to the bees, was interesting in itself. good luck +-----------------------------------+ | I walked in through the open door | | couldn't believe what I saw | | They were all around me | | Epeleptics to a banjo melody. | | GAVIN JOHNSTON | | G93J2616@WARTHOG.RU.AC.ZA | +-----------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 06:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Steven A. Creasy wrote: > > I have seen people talk about "following" sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Is > this a list? It is a usenet newsgroup. You'll need a news reader (Netscape contains one) and info from your provider identifying their news server address. Usenet has a __wide__ variety of newsgroups. Surf and have fun!! Logan Lenoir City ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 07:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: rnessler Subject: Re: sci.agriculture.beekeeping In-Reply-To: <19960731.000422.15399.0.screasy@juno.com> On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Steven A. Creasy wrote: > I have seen people talk about "following" sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Is > this a list? Try as I might, I have not been able to find out how to > subscribe to it if it is. I hope some one will have mercy on a new-BEE > (pardon the pun) and tell me how to subscribe to it if it is a list, and > if not, WHAT IT IS! > > Thanks, > Steve in Knoxville, TN I'm not real qualified to answer your questions, but can relate what I know. I can follow the group sci.agriculture.beekeeping using netscape software and my employers paid access to the bulletin board groups. The topics available (groups) differ by who you choose to provide you access ( I guess, as I have heard of groups I can't read). America On Line is one provider of this service (this is not an AOL endorsement), and there are others. I find this listserver to be a little better, but that is my personal opinion, and yours might vary. Hope I helped. Randy Nessler rnessler@emiris.iaf.uiowa.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 07:58:57 +0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Painter Subject: Re: Honey/Brood in supers -Reply //--- forwarded letter ------------------------------------------------------- > X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Bill, > > Brood in the supers means the queen was there... To stop this, either use a queen excluder > below the supers (...making sure the queen is below...) and/or make sure your bottom super > or top hive body is full of honey. (The queen won't cross honey to lay above it.) > > Putting an excluder on now will trap any emerging drones up there, but they can be given a > top exit with a small rock under the top cover. It's a bit like closing the barn door after the > horse is gone, as prevention sure is better than the cure on this one. Note: if you move the > super with brood very far above honey supers, the nurse bees up there will think they are > queenless and might start supersedure cells. Watch for them. > > Have fun! Last night I moved the top super that was full of honey on the bottom, just above the second full sized box. I then took the bottom supper and put it on top (most of it was eggs). Then I got to thinking what if the queen is now up in this what is now the top super. Will she cross honey to go back down into the hive? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:42:48 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stefan Ivanov Subject: Bulgarian Beekeeper Hi Bill, Here the weather is very hot in August and almost not rainy. Using cash in Bulgaria is most preferable, cause I am not shure you can use trevellers cheques here. Anyway I think some Banks operate with trevellers cheques. If are you planing to use cash you have to know that there is a lot of burglaries in the country. Is it posible to meet with my father at the end of August? Bye Stefan --------------------------------------------------------- Stefan Stepansky jk"Mladost"4 e_mail:sist@vmei.acad.bg bl.444,vh.4,et.4,ap.12 tel. :+359/2/74 58 36 Sofia - 1715 Bulgaria ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 07:56:47 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: sci.agriculture.beekeeping > I have seen people talk about "following" > sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Is this a list? Try as I might, I have > not been able to find out how to subscribe to it if it is. I hope > some one will have mercy on a new-BEE (pardon the pun) and tell me > how to subscribe to it if it is a list, and if not, WHAT IT IS! Well, I'll reply to the list, seeing as there seem to be many new members. sci.agriculture.beekeeping is a USENET group which can be found by using a newsreader -- either 'tin', 'rn', 'trn' or some such if you have a shell account, or 'Free Agent' or 'Newsexpress' if you use a windows system. 'Netscape' can also be used to read news. Unlike a mailing list (like this one), the propagation of articles on USENET is very dependant on where you are located and the bandwidth into your ISP. I have two different places where I read news. One often has *many* more articles in sci.agriculture.beekeeping than the other. (An 'article' is a posting like this by one of the public reading it). News also 'expires' fairly quickly. If you have not read it, it is gone -- erased on your ISP to make room for more. A mailing list (like BEE-L) on the other hand, sends mail that just sits in your mailbox until you read it. Barring system failure, you should get all articles that are posted. You can also find sci.agriculture.beekeeping by using a web brouser and using the Dejanews serch engine which will retrieve many old news articles that you may not have read. Old logs of sci.agriculture.beekeeping are archived by Adam on Sunsite. I believe there are pointers on the beekeeping home page and maybe even my own (below). I have been neglecting my pages and they are quite out of date, but should still be a good starting point. Hope this helps. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:34:44 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: BEEKEEPING IN SCHOOLS - RE -Reply Alan, Mr G Johnston wrote: "With respect to the possibility of using observation hives for educational purposes, I have found that it is useful to build it basically out of wood with only one obsevation "window". This stops moisture build-up in humid climates, which you may or may-not experience in your part of the world. In our situation there was a lot of moisture build-up which the bees struggled to rectify because the hive entrance only consists of a tube. This led to quite a large infestation of waxmoth (Galleria sp.) which, although detrimental to the bees, was interesting in itself." Our observation hive has glass on both sides, and is three frames high. Having glass on both sides allows us to see the queen, who likes to hide. I think four would be better to help relieve congestion. It also contains an area at the bottom with a screened circle, over which I can put a feeder jar. For ventilation, (and it's humid here too,) there is an area at the bottom (opposite side from the feeder jar) with a large double screened open area, which then leads to a wood block at the end for the tube to go outside. (Double screened to keep young fingers from getting stung...) There are also three screened 1 1/2 inch holes at the top. Here's an end view, (if this comes through...) / ---screened holes (3) __ V __ | |___| | ||_| |_|| || || <---glass (both sides) feeder || || (screened || || /----exit block (at far end) circle) ... ___V_ \ ||_ _|| | | ____V____|| | | ||__|____|__ <---large double screened opening (width of hive) | | |___| |__| | | | |_______________________ | | |___________________________| (That was hard to do in ascii!) It is important to dimension the parts so that proper beespace is maintained between frames and glasses and between the frames (vertically.) I use small tacks which stick out sideways at the bottom of the frames to maintain this spacing from the glass. Use standard size frames so you can swap frames of brood out to a field hive. I pull a thin wire under the glass to separate it from the wood when it is propilized in place. Use thick window glass so it does not break with manipulation (and/or have spare glass available for "emergencies," which are no fun.) The bees fill the frames with brood quickly and must be manipulated (replaced) more frequently than a normal hive, because of the abnormal small size. Observation hives are very useful to watch for honey flows and for instruction. I take mine "on the road" frequently with duct tape over the entrance (and the wall tube inner end.) The kids love it! Have fun! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 06:42:52 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: Formic Acid Formic acid ? Here is the right stuff >From: hshimanu@asrr.arsusda.gov >Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:02:28 -0400 (EDT) >To: Walter Patton >Subject: Re: Formic Acid > >Dear Mr. Patton< > >Formic acid is caustic and should be handled with care. >It is my understanding that burns from formic acid do >cause pain, the problem is that the injury is so rapid >that by the time you feel the pain the damage may have >been done. Because formic acid is hazardous, exposure >limits have been established by OSHA for worker safety. >According to the information I have the time-weighted- >average is 5ppm. > >Individuals differ in their ability to detect formic acid >but no one should rely on odor. Respirators, chemical >resistant gloves, safety goggles, and other protective >equipment must be worn when handling formic acid. > >Research in Europe and North America has shown that >formic acid is effective against the both Varroa and the >tracheal mite. I believe the first label submitted to >EPA will be only for the control of the tracheal mite. > >I am told that, some queen losses have been reported by >users of formic acid. However, the same sources tell me >that, with experience, users soon learn how and when to >use formic acid. > >Will see you in Kona if you have further questions. > >H. Shimanuki > > > > > Walter & Elisabeth Patton, 27-703 A Ka' ie'ie Rd., Papaikou HI.,96781 Ph./Fax. 808-964-5401 E-Mail hihoney@ilhawaii Beekeeper and Bed & Breakfast Owner in Hawaii http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/beeware.htm http://www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:36:32 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Jul 1996 to 30 Jul 1996 In-Reply-To: <01I7P4QDV41U9NHTCW@saturn.gov.bc.ca> Re. Use of Formic Acid I have been following the discussion on formic acid (FA) with interest. I suppose the unfamiliarity with the product causes some US beekeepers to speculate on the dangers of the product. Indeed, the fact that ants have been named after it and that the product does occur naturally in honey, does not make the product benign. It is potentially hazardous to the applicator when used irresponsibly but are there not scores of products we use daily that pose equal or even greater health threats? One that comes to mind is gasoline which has a high oral and dermal toxicity, extremely flammable and whose fumes harbor all kinds of hideous dangers. Do we worry about it when visiting the gasstation? I suppose its 'structured' and familiar usage has allowed us to become complacent apart from the fact that if something goes wrong at the gas station, we can blame the supplier. In the beeyard, the use of FA can pose a risk but if used prudently and handled in a prescribed 'standardized' method, it can be of minimal threat to the operator. Since the product has been made available in Canada for use in bee hives, the suppliers have made FA available in 65% concentration. This negated the need for producers themselves to dilute the 85% concentration down. This step signified the removal of a major hazard. Here in British Columbia as well in as other parts of the country, trials and experiments have been carried out in improving FA application methods. We have in BC a factsheet available on FA applications methods (e.mail available). Ever since FA became widely used in the province, we have not been aware of any beekeeper seriously affected by the use of FA. As someone else already pointed out, FA is not the 'silver bullet' we all like to have in controlling mites. Matter of fact when (climatic) conditions are not right, an FA application may turn out utterly useless and probably needlessly injurious to the bees. Our experience has clearly shown that FA efficacy remains partially uncertain and very dependent on the right conditions. Also, as a matter of normal beekeeping practice, it is important for beekeepers to replace their queens annually or at least every other year. FA applications do cause increased queen mortality. The queens themselves are not necessarily knocked off but perhaps the pheremone release and communication with workers is sufficiently disrupted to lead to her demise. Many producers apply FA in the late summer/early fall and if a queen is then lost later (unknownst to the beekeeper), the colony will be dead by next spring. Colonies with younger, vigorous queens have shown much better survival rates. FA has its drawbacks but I believe it is a valuable and important tool in the fight against mites. Also, FA enables the beekeeping community to broaden its arsenal in controlling varroa ,instead of solely relying on Apistan which apart from high costs, may lessen its efficacy in the future because of mite resistance. I am afraid the greatest hurdle faced by US beekeepers is the bureaucratic maze they have to travel through to get FA approved for use in honeybee colonies. Good Luck! Paul van Westendorp Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:54:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Using bees as weapons Some folks have noticed that a portion of my life has been missing. The secret research I did during the Viet Nam War has now been declassified, and I am free to tell the story. The powers-that-be have decided there is no further possibility of use for my work. I grew up in a vegetable producing area, and had gotten a job with a cannery. Then they added a new line of frozen food, which used a new technology called flash-freezing to preserve the quality. From the maintainance department, I was moved into the setup team for this new system. We dropped green peas through a blast of superchilled air, and they were frozen like a rock when they hit bottom. When they thawed, they tasted as if they had never been frozen. The technology is now in general use. I had access to the process equipment in the off-season, and did a lot of experimentation, some of which the company still holds patents for. But one of my best discoveries was that you could flash-freeze bees, and they would revive when they thawed. The process was so quick that the ice crystals never broke the cell membranes. I recalled how a distant kin of mine was a beekeeper in Missouri, when the territory was feuding over whether to be a free or slave state. He was not in agreement with his neighbors, and one day they came to burn him out. He had prepared about 50 bee gums into a circle around his home. When the raiding party approached, he calmly waited until they were near, then fired.......at his own bee gums. They left him alone after that. I kicked around an idea with a couple friends, that we could design a gun that would fire these rock-hard bees with no injury to them, and have them revive as they were hurled through the warm air. What a great weapon that would be! One of these friends had contacts in high places (of which I was unaware), and I had a couple of officers at my door that evening. They took me to a lab (I didn't even know where it was), and gave me all the equipment I wanted. I was never allowed to discuss this, even with my Mom and Dad. We (I was given a team of assistants) designed a gun that would rapid-fire a couple hundred bees. If these were lobbed into a foxhole on a warm day, the bees would revive en route and the enemy (theoretically) would run screaming from the hiding spot, to be picked off by our snipers. It was beautiful, and I was so proud of our accomplishment. The first shipment of guns and ammo went in refrigerated containers. But lack of understanding and care by the personnel en route, combined with the steamy tropical heat, allowed the bees to warm up a bit. They were usually still frozen but often not hard, when they were used. There were a couple times when they worked in spectacular fashion, but most of the time, they turned to mush and jammed up the guns. My attempt to contribute to the war effort, I guess, was basically a failure. The only lasting evidence of the great experiment is the popular saying among the GI's: "Many are chilled, but few are frozen." Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html -- End --