Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id AD85E3C0058; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:26:45 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1307; Tue, 12 Nov 96 15:30:40 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 2702; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:30:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:30:34 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9608C" To: "W. Allen Dick" X-UIDL: 388 Status: U ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:02:54 BST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Malcolm Roe Subject: Re: W.B.C. Hive Plans In-Reply-To: <199608140403.AA213655387@hplb.hpl.hp.com>; from "Barry Birkey" at Aug 13, 96 6:48 pm Barry Birkey asked: > I'm trying to find working drawings for a W.B.C. hive. Can anyone give me information on > where to obtain such drawings? =46rom sci.agriculture.beekeeping recently: _______________________________________________________________________ From: rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Mike Davies") Subject: Re: Hive building Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:06:26 GMT Since you are both in the UK, your local association should have some. = If not then the British Bee Keepers Association sell plans for Modified = National, WBC, Smith & Langstroth for 75p each. Make cheques payable to BBKA and send order to :- Mrs. G.R. Chirnside Bryn y Pant Cottage Upper Llanover, Abergavenny, GWENT NP7 9ES If you are not sure about total cost including P & P, mark your cheque: = "Not to exceed =A3..." These details come from the May BBKA Newsletter. Mike _______________________________________________________________________ The problem, with sending small sums like this internationally (75p is approximately $1) is that the costs of changing the money often exceed the original sum involved. This will certainly be the case if you pay by cheque. What I'd do if I were replying from the US would be to put a $5 bill in the letter. That would easily cover the cost, including post and packing, even after the money changers have had their cut. Whilst I've not seen the WBC plans I do have a copy of the BBKA Modified National plans. If the WBC plans are similar then they won't include details of the frames. Note that they are NOT the same size as Langstroth frames. For anyone else who might be interested, although Mike Davies doesn't mention it I think the BBKA also sell plans for Commercial hives. (There must be more types of hives in use in the British Isles than anywhere else in the world!) -- Malcolm Roe mdr@hplb.hpl.hp.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:53:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: New Queen >new queen for them on Thursday and finally got it in Sunday. I put it in >the hive and so far the bees have not clustered arround the new Queen. >Should they have moved to the Queen as soon as I put her in? Sounds to me as if you have a virgin. After one week she should be laying eggs to beat the band. This year with the rotten weather there has been lots of virgins sold as laying queens. Look for more comments on this problem. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:21:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Has BEE-L been down? I have did not receive any messages for all of yesterday. Was the system down? Gerry Visel GCVisel@SNDS.COM (815) 226-6620 (815) 394-5438 or -2827 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:14:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: - Ed Levi Subject: Re: Scandinavian Hives Anyone know of some beekeepers who'd be receptive to visit in Gothenberg, Sweden or in Denmark areas? Ed ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:08:26 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark F. Almond" Subject: Re: Has BEE-L been down? You wrote: > >I have did not receive any messages for all of yesterday. Was the system down? >Gerry Visel >GCVisel@SNDS.COM >(815) 226-6620 >(815) 394-5438 or -2827 (fax) > Hi Gerry, Sometimes you get bumped off. You may have to resubscibe again. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:39:38 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Honey jars, etc. Hi, Walter. Thanks very much for your hospitality --- and the honey! (It got home safely, without leaking in the suitcase.) Thanks also for posting the summary of the WAS meeting. You did a very good job of that! I meant to get from you the company name and address for your bottle and cap supplies. Would you please send that to me? With all best regards and aloha! Adrian Also, my best regards to Elizabeth and Walter Jr.!! *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:51:45 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guy LeBlanc Subject: Looking for a job in Canada in biology Hi! A friend of mine just graduated with a bachelors degree in biology. He has noticed that the job market for this kind of job is next to 0 . Does someone have a list of companies in Canada that hire people like this? Could you please help my friend? Guy -------------------------------------------- Guy LeBlanc Customer Technical Support guy@pps.ca http://2sl.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:36:55 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Varroa help Hi, Lilia. Did you receive the mite sample I mailed to you? Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:22:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James Subject: employment? Hi all. I am going to be moving to Eugene, Oregon in the near future. Does anyone know any beekeepers in that area who may need some help or may be of help in starting up a new (small!) operation? Please e-mail me personally. Thanks for the help and all the information gleaned over the last year! James Jacobs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:54:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: August issue of APIS Comments: To: General questions The August 1996 issue of APIS--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764), the monthly beekeeping newsletter from the University of Florida is being printed and has been sent to the Apis-L mailing list. This issue includes articles on beeswax contamination, American foulbrood control, September beekeeping seminar in Florida's panhandle and last year's winter losses. For Internet users this number can be directly accessed using the world wide web: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apaug96.htm or "newsletters" in the IFAS VAX gopher: gopher://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/11gopher_root3%3a%5bdatabase%5d Those wishing to receive the newsletter electronically on a monthly basis as it is published can subscribe directly by sending a message to LISTSERV@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU, and entering on the first line of the body of the text, NOT the subject line, the following: Subscribe Apis-L First Name Last Name. Here's what the screen looked like when I subscribed: ---------------------------------------------------------- To :listserv@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu Cc : Attchmnt: Subject : -------Message Text-------- subscribe apis-L Tom Sanford ----------------------------- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Malcolm (Tom) Sanford Extension Apiculturist University of Florida Mailing Address: Bldg 970, Hull Rd., Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Voice phone 352/392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX 352/392-0190 INTERNET:MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU ==================================================================== Publisher of APIS -- http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm Instructor of Principles of Entomology, ENY 3005-- http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/eny3005/eny3005syl.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:00:58 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Melted Comb Hello All! Here's one for you. I had some partially capped shallow frames (0-80%) that I put in a small room with a dehumidifier and heater to remove moisture from. (It was later tested and shown to be 18.8% moisture) While trying to regulate the temperature in the room, it got up to 100 degrees. I only had 4 supers total, so I put my fully capped honey in the room also. I came back later, and to my dismay, 6-8 frames of the earilest, lightest, fully capped honey had the middles melted out. I had them in the bathtub and was able to catch 2 1/2 qts. for later use as food (?). My question is this. Will the bees repair frames of comb that is fully drawn but 20-40% of the middle section gone, or should I start over again next year with foundation? So THIS is experience!!!! Steve in Maryville, TN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: To dissolve Propolis you.... At 10:46 8/12/96 +0100, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS >Subject: Re: To dissolve Propolis you.... >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Mike, > >It is with great interest that I read this message about removing propolis >from clothing. One question. Does it say on the bottle what "Lighter Fluid" >is chemically? > >Thanks for letting me know. > >Best regards > >Hans > > > > __________________________________________________________ >Hans-Ulrich THOMAS. Beekeeper & collector of books about: > >- bees and beekeeping >- ants (yes these small little buggers!) >- nature printing > >e-mail: hthomas@solid.phys.ethz.ch >CompuServe: 100045,2556 >Fax: ++41 1 633 10 77 >__________________________________________________________ > Hans, Yes, it does state the primary chemical component of Lighter Fluid, and that would be Naptha (which, for all of those who don't know, is the chemical used for dry cleaning clothes, as well). Cheers, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:08:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Melted Comb At 07:00 8/14/96 PST, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: "Steven A. Creasy" >Subject: Melted Comb >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hello All! > >Here's one for you. I had some partially capped shallow frames (0-80%) >that I put in a small room with a dehumidifier and heater to remove >moisture from. (It was later tested and shown to be 18.8% moisture) >While trying to regulate the temperature in the room, it got up to 100 >degrees. I only had 4 supers total, so I put my fully capped honey in >the room also. I came back later, and to my dismay, 6-8 frames of the >earilest, lightest, fully capped honey had the middles melted out. I >had them in the bathtub and was able to catch 2 1/2 qts. for later use >as food (?). > >My question is this. Will the bees repair frames of comb that is fully >drawn but 20-40% of the middle section gone, or should I start over >again next year with foundation? > >So THIS is experience!!!! > >Steve in Maryville, TN > Steve, Don't worry. The bees will build it all back. However, that area may cause the foundation to be weaker and cause it to sling out when you extract. You may want to cross-wire those frames (just my opinion). Regards, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:00:48 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ing. Gaivironsky" Subject: About organic rosemary honey Hi! I am Lidia, an Engineer Agronomist from Argentina. My principal job is training in courses about organic farming (at university and extension levels). I am interested in bee-L because a lot of items are useful and applicable in organic beekeeping. One friend (he has not an e.mail) would like to ask the next questions: 1. Does exist a market for organic rosemary (Rosmarinus sp) honey? 2. If yes, what about the price for it (in average)? Can anybody answer this questions? Thanks in advance. Sincerely Lidia Lidia Gaivironsky gaivi@overnet.com.ar ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:20:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ernest Caldwell Subject: Re: Can someone help? Hi Mike, The message I was refering to was datedJuly 21, the message-ID: perhaps this will help you find the message. Ernest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:00:31 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Melted Comb >My question is this. Will the bees repair frames of comb that is fully >drawn but 20-40% of the middle section gone, or should I start over >again next year with foundation? I have been told they will replace it but probably with drone comb. It seems also that the drone comb will be the last cells to be filled with honey on the next flow. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, 1 year in beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:01:27 +0000 Reply-To: joe.hemmens@ndirect.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: About organic rosemary honey Dear Lidia I trained as a farmer many years ago and am particularly interested in organic farming. This is why I became interested in treating bees infested with Varroa with essential oils... But to try to answer your question - You might find that Europe is a better market than the US, I don't know much about the American market apart from the fact that tend to prefer lighter honey and it does not fetch a very high price. But there are probably exceptions and it all depends on how much you have to sell. In the UK there are quite a few consumers prepared to pay for interesting high quality honey. A retailer will generally pay about =A34/kg. I would suggest that the best way to market it would be to get in touch with a 'whole food' co-operative, who would be prepared to purchase a reasonable quantity. Hope that is helpful Best wishes Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:55:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Melted Comb In a message dated 96-08-14 19:07:28 EDT, screasy@juno.com (Steven A. Creasy) writes: << I came back later, and to my dismay, 6-8 frames of the earilest, lightest, fully capped honey had the middles melted out. I had them in the bathtub and was able to catch 2 1/2 qts. for later use as food (?). My question is this. Will the bees repair frames of comb that is fully drawn but 20-40% of the middle section gone, or should I start over again next year with foundation? >> Try to redistribute the frames, so that each hole has a good comb on either side, if you can. Bees will then generally fill in the hole. You might trim up any twisted parts with a sharp knife. If there are wires in the hole, you'll have to cut the *vertical* ones, because, for some reason, bees will not build back there. They usually will repair comb around horizontal wires. I routinely use completely empty frames between frames of good comb, to produce comb honey, so we can cut pieces to put in the jar. This is the preferred style of comb honey in the south. The bees ususally fill it in quite well, though sometimes they will put in a brace comb connection between frames. It doesn't matter; it all gets used. We eat odd pieces as we work, or crush them and toss into the tank. Sometimes we put them into tuppperware boxes, and pass them out to friends. The pretty ones go into the jars. You're coming on just fine. If that is the most expensive mistake, you are doing great! Good luck. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:46:03 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Potatoes and bees I have been offered a large building in which to winter my bees. The building was, for years, used to store potatoes. We are talking about a large commercial potatoe operation. My question is this - Are there any risidual molds, funguses, etc. that might make this a bad building to use to overwinter bees. Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:34:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave from Scranton Subject: Re: ground nesting bumblebees In-Reply-To: <32054806.523A@tyrell.net> On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Victor M. Kroenke wrote: > When I was a young man we put up prairie hay in Kansas using horses. > I can vouch for the fact that bumble bees take a dim view to having > their nests destroyed and can sting horses and people. It seemed to > me that they really packed a wallop. I can personally vouch for the fact that they don't like being petted like a dog (no matter how fuzzy they look) while foraging on a dandillion. I tried that as a small child and got stung, but then again, maybe that particular bee was just having a bad day... *shrug* ****************************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | ***ALERT shameless plug ALERT*** The Internet Cafe | Scranton, Pennsylvania | ASK ME FOR A COPY OF WEBPHONE!!! (717) 344-1969 | (or try www.scranton.com/webphone) ddc1@lydian.scranton.com | ****************************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:06:17 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Extracted supers - now what? I have some beginner questions. Here is the situation. My strongest hive from a package 5/1 with new foundation had 3 medium supers drawn with 2 capped. I extracted two of the three and go about 65 lbs. of honey. What a surprise, I didn't expect to get more than 15 lbs. Now the questions. What is typically done with supers after extraction? How does one prepare and where do one store them for the winter? I placed them back on the hive to get cleaned up but don't expect to leave them there for the winter. Both my hives will be 2 deeps with a medium when I place the apistan. Should the medium with honey be left for the winter or stored and put on in the spring? The medioum super are not yet capped. I live in Massachusetts and the practice it to winter with two deeps typically. Advice appreciated. Thanks in advance. Jim Moore moore@aiag.enet.dec.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:11:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave from Scranton Subject: Re: To dissolve Propolis you.... In-Reply-To: <320FC2EA.3139@mindlink.bc.ca> On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Bruce Hamilton wrote: > > It is with great interest that I read this message about removing propolis > > from clothing. One question. Does it say on the bottle what "Lighter Fluid" > > is chemically? > > > To my nose..lighter fluid is varasol... I believe it's got quite a bit of acetone and maybe toulene in it. ****************************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | ***ALERT shameless plug ALERT*** The Internet Cafe | Scranton, Pennsylvania | ASK ME FOR A COPY OF WEBPHONE!!! (717) 344-1969 | (or try www.scranton.com/webphone) ddc1@lydian.scranton.com | ****************************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Apis Article. Extract from Dr. Tom Sandford's Aug issue of Apis. >This goes back to some beekeeping basics, as stated by Mr. Glen >Stanley, retired Iowa bee inspector, while giving advice on >controlling tracheal mites "...why not begin fighting the battle >where it would do the most good by getting bees cleared of nosema >first." (see July 1994 APIS). The same issue was also raised more >recently by Andrew Matheson discussing why beekeepers have so >quickly adopted vegetable oil patties for tracheal mite control, >yet do not routinely use fumagillin for nosema. (see December 1995 >APIS). ".....why not go one better and re-queen with Tracheal Mite resistant stock" Some time ago I took the liberty of posting a lot of information to the Bee-L on the work done since 1990 here in Ontario to produce stock which is T-mite resistant. It went down like the proverbial 'lead balloon'. All it seemed to do was to bring out the critics. Surely it makes economic sense, a re-queen with tested T-mite resistant stock costing $11US, and all the problem with T-mites is history. When reading magazine and publications we get lots of advice on how to combat T-mites, but never has anyone suggested our way. Why not? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:37:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Melted Comb Whether or not bees repair comb to something useful depends mostly on what sort of foundation you used. In my experience, only the plastic foundations (e.g.; Pierco) will be redrawn into "good as new" combs. Duragilt will not in general be rebuilt, or worse, the bees will build burr comb over it. Wax foundation may get rebuilt, but will generally be rebuilt as drone comb. I applaud the idea of setting the supers in a bathtub as an example of a big disaster averted by forethought. Honey in a bathtub is a lot easier to clean up than honey on the bathroom floor. When I give talks on handling honey, wax, and/or sugar syrup, I always stress the principle of disaster control by containment. Stuff will spill. Make sure that when it does, it will go into something that is easy to clean and will keep the mess from spreading. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Rust Organization: Rust Hollar Bed & Breakfast Subject: Re: Hive stands,reply Tom Allen wrote: > > As you say , use what you have available.My hives sit in pairs on old doors > set across cement blocks about 15"off the ground. On top of the doors I have > put some planking 1-1/4in thick A space between two of the planks hold a > watering pan abour 4 feet long. When working I stand on the platform and lift > off the upper supers of one colony at a time. Each stand will hold two hives > with room to spare. > > Today I visited a beekeeper in Winchendon . His hive stands were made from > telephone pole cross trees. They were bigger than a four by four but not as > big as railroad ties. His workmanship in all his affairs was really top > notch.In side his shed he had a full observation hive beautifully fashioned > from oak. He had two deep supers and four shallows with glass on all four > sides, it stands beside a north facing window with a landing board outside. > Each section is a full ten frames wide. Beautifully made. Hi Tom, Any possibility of getting plans for the observation hive you mentioned? Thanks Tim Rust Rust Hollar Bed & Breakfast (http://www.rusthollar.com) rusthollar@rusthollar.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:35:32 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Early Harvest Ok, so I'm being a contientious beekeeper, pulling supers at the beginning of the fall flow so I can get the Apistan strips in to ensure that I'll have bees next spring. Problem is, now that I still have a late summer population in my hives and no honey supers, the hives are CROWDED! Most have massive bee beards on the bottom boards and I'm concerned that I will be encouraging late season swarms to ease the congestion. I'm torn between giving back an empty super (which conflicts with Apistan treatment) and just letting the bees bear with the overpopulation. If a hive were to swarm this late in the season it will be hard pressed to recover in time for winter, yet if I don't protect against mites the hives may be succeptible to similar losses as last year. This is a real quandry. Any suggestions? Aaron Morris - thinking, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't!?" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:23:34 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Early Harvest > Ok, so I'm being a contientious beekeeper, pulling supers at the > beginning of the fall flow so I can get the Apistan strips in to > ensure that I'll have bees next spring. I'm curious. Have you sampled your mite levels? Are other beekeepers in your area treating simultaneously? What does your local bee extension agent say? Other local hobbyist and commercial beekeepers? If you are acting alone, what are the chances that your efforts may be in vain? I doubt that anyone on this list can advise on your local conditions and unique problems as well as your neighbouring bee people can, unless they happen to be within your area. My understanding is that varroa control requires co-ordinated local efforts. Of course, I imagine we are all very interested in your problem and some may have general comments. We'll also want to know more about your ultimate conclusions as you learn more about this new problem and hope you continue to post more on this as you proceed. Best of luck. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:20:22 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Foul Brood. I have been asked a question which I cannot answer, so hope you can! The accepted practice of disinfecting frames, boxes etc is by dry heat, ie flames, or by irradiation. Would steam achieve the same results? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:20:38 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Steam to disinfect equipment Nope, not hot enough. Autoclaving will work if you have an autoclave big enough, otherwise it's flame or nukes. /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Early Harvest What's the big deal about getting the strips in now?? Sorry, but I just don't get it. Get your fall flow and super well so they won't swarm. If they do, it's likely the parent colonies won't be in very good shape going into winter. And neither will the swarms, of course. The ideal time to treat, as I understand it, is when there is little or no brood; then all the mites are gravitating to adult bees, instead of being hidden in capped brood cells. SO, that means October, maybe into November around here, while the bees are still somewhat active. There is a window of opportunity there. This is well after the majority of the fall flow. According to Roger Morse the lowest part of the brood cycle is around November. It does appear to be a dilemna - treating and losing the crop/letting them keep it on for the winter and accepting unwanted fall swarming (fairly common), VS. taking full advantage of fall sources and not getting to treat nice and early. BTW I should clarify that up here in the NE the fall crop (goldenrod & asters) is quite a substantial portion (sometimes the majority) of the entire harvest for the year. Enlighten me by all means - I'd like to get the scoop on this whole thing Thanks, JWG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:37:04 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: What a dilemma! Allen Dick posted to my previous query: > I'm curious. Have you sampled your mite levels? Are other > beekeepers in your area treating simultaneously? What does your > local bee extension agent say? Other local hobbyist and commercial > beekeepers? I have diligently kept grease patties in all my hives all summer long, so I'm ASSUMING that tracheal mites are not a problem. I have not done ether rolls to test for varroa, but I have examined drone brood, found nothing. No news of mite infestations from beekeeping buddies in my beekeepers association. In fact, researchers at Cornell who are ready to jump on the situation have not been able to find even pockets of mite infestation statewide. An appeal for NY beekeepers with mites was made at the mite workshop last Saturday. If you've got 'em, let me know and I'll pass the word. Yet I am ready and commercial operations are ready to treat a problem that has not shown itself this season. I am not networked with all beekeeping associations in New York, but am very active in my local tier (the northeast quarter of the state). Seems we're all running scared from last year, treating prophylactically to make sure that we get even the invisible mites. This is not a coordinated effort, although "the word" is out that we'd better forego the fall flow and treat now. To my knowledge, most are doing so and if they aren't, they readily admit that they are gambling. The only success stories this spring were from beekeepers who treated mid-August last summer. > If you are acting alone, what are the chances that your efforts may > be in vain? My understanding is that varroa control requires > co-ordinated local efforts. If there are beekeepers within flight distance of my yards, I don't know of them. All feral hives (trees and buildings) that I knew of last year were gone this spring, some of which hade been there most of my lifetime (40 some years). I have found only one feral hive newly established this season and can't say with assuredness from whence it came. > Of course, I imagine we are all very interested in your problem and > some may have general comments. We'll also want to know more about > your ultimate conclusions as you learn more about this new problem > and hope you continue to post more on this as you proceed. I suspect that what I'll do is start the treatments for the beardless hives and give back a super (or two) to the busters to relieve the congestion through Labor day. But then I'll be faced with a double dilemma then, what to do with the unripe honey that will be in the supers (handled easily enough in a batch of mead I guess), and then the bees will most likely still be quite populace, hence I'll have the same problem only a few weeks later. Perhaps late swarms will be less of a concern then. This strategy also introduces the possibility that my untreated hives will reinfest my treated ones, but that may be a nonconcern if the periods of treatment overlap. While I typed this Joel Govostes posted: > > What's the big deal about getting the strips in now?? Sorry, but I > just don't get it. Get your fall flow and super well so they won't > swarm. If they do, it's likely the parent colonies won't be in very > good shape going into winter. And neither will the swarms, of course. Exactly. Problem is that the latest opinion is that NOW, right NOW, is the time to treat. Have a look at this month's ABJ, which is touting NOW as the time to treat for mites to make sure that the next and subsequent brood cycle will be mite free to assure that the wintering population will be a healthy one. In fact, one researcher (perhaps more?) suggest killing off the field bees prior to the onset of cooler weather so any mites they carry will not be passed on to the following generations of bees. Perhaps that is the answer to this question, relieve the congestion by euthenasia for the current field force. I was incredulous when I read the suggestion, but I specifically asked that question at the mite workshop held at BetterBee this past weekend (attended by over 140 beekeepers) and no one shot it down. Such a strategy certainly will preclude harvesting the fall flow, but will address the congestion. > The ideal time to treat, as I understand it, is when there is little > or no brood; then all the mites are gravitating to adult bees, instead > of being hidden in capped brood cells. SO, that means October, maybe > into November around here, while the bees are still somewhat active. > There is a window of opportunity there. This is well after the majority > of the fall flow. According to Roger Morse the lowest part of the > brood cycle is around November. No, the most effective treatment/highest kill rate of mites is achieved when you treat at the lowest brood population as you stated. However, the current thinking is as I stated, which is treat NOW to assure that the next brood cycles, your wintering bees, will be mite free. I didn't treat until late September last year and I suffered 75% winter losses, actually 40% were gone by Thanksgiving. > It does appear to be a dilemna - treating and losing the crop/letting > them keep it on for the winter and accepting unwanted fall swarming > (fairly common), VS. taking full advantage of fall sources and not > getting to treat nice and early. BTW I should clarify that up here > in the NE the fall crop (goldenrod & asters) is quite a substantial > portion (sometimes the majority) of the entire harvest for the year. > Agreed! Which is the dilemma I'm wrestling with. I hate to cut off the fall flow, especially with the ideal conditions we've been having in these parts, because the fall flow promises to be excellent (apologies to the drought sticken mid and southwest). I hate to miss the asters, perhaps my personal favorite - ever so light, tastes great AND less filling ;) although it granulates very quickly. Aaron Morris - Still thinking damned if you do, damned if you don't!? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: What a dilemma! Now I understand about having a few good cycles of treated brood come off before wintering. Let me play devil's advocate again here, tho', regarding all that nice honey the bees will be collecting while the strips are in place. This will cram the brood chamber well with stores (a very good thing after all). Come spring when you super (& reverse) much of that will be moved above into supers. So you still end up with honey collected while treating with miticide. Yes/no/maybe? A certain well known professor over at 'the University' has told me that he knows many beekeepers are leaving the strips in even while hives are supered. Spring and again fall. Tsk tsk... Has there been any news that residues have been found in honey? Thanks for the clarification. I can say this: a few years ago I helped a commercial (sortof) beekeeper harvest the crop and then in October we went around to put strips in (actually cow collars, I'm not sure if it was fluvalinate). By that time a great many of the colonies were either decimated (gone!) or severely weakened to the point that there was no way they would survive. A truly pitiful sight. That was his last season with bees. Sounds like there was some interesting discussion at the recent NY meeting. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:47:47 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Aug 1996 to 15 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: <01I8BHDUT1OI9NPHUR@saturn.gov.bc.ca> Re. Apis Article/ David Eyre / HBTM-Resistant Stock David Eyre commented on the fact that his original discussion about HBTM resistant beestock raised in Ontario came over "like a lead balloon", while beekeepers are all so eager to adopt chemical control procedures. I suppose you are correct on both counts but I think it is important to recognize the importance of both issues. Here in British Columbia, we have developed several HBTM-Resistant Bee Lines after a multi-year breeding program in partnership with the industry. At the same time, we have also supported and carried out a wide-range of trials on improved chemical mite controls and application techniques. We have always believed that these seperate mite control approaches are not exclusive from each other. Ultimately, the industry's success in controlling mites (both HBTM and varroa) is through Integrated Pest Management (IPM): not one single control is sufficient, but the timely application of a range of controls and management techniques that offer effective pest control while minimizing the impact on the host. HBTM-resistant beestock may therefore be only one component of an entire mite control strategy. Similarly, chemical controls occupy only one part of the overall mite control effort. I don't think most beekeepers are inclined to favor chemical controls over mite-resistant beestock, but the concerns about residues, efficacy, applicators safety, product registration and all other factors associated with the use of chemicals, make this inevitably a more frequently discussed subject matter. Paul van Westendorp pvanwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:42:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John A Skinner Subject: Re: Early Harvest In-Reply-To: Joel and others, Waiting until broodless is the ideal time to treat to "get all mites exposed", however, if we did that in Tennessee, we would probably be too late. Treatments should not be based on calendar year. Treatments should be applied before the number of Varroa reaches a critical level. One thing I try to remember is that we should overwinter with healthy bees that are not "punched full of holes" by mites. If we delay treatments, the bees, although treated may already be damaged sufficiently to not survive the stress of winter. John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 16:04:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Early Harvest >the overpopulation. If a hive were to swarm this late in the season >it will be hard pressed to recover in time for winter, yet if I don't >protect against mites the hives may be succeptible to similar losses >as last year. This is a real quandry. Any suggestions? > >Aaron Morris - thinking, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't!?" I haven't had to deal with this problem as yet. Do you think that they will have time to swarm this late in the season? A point to remember, the bees hanging off the front are only field bees, kicked out by the house bees to make space inside. Get a cold day and watch them disappear!! Could you not give them an empty shallow, anything they store, extract, and feed back as liquid in the fall? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:21:15 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Do workers "steal" eggs from other colonies? This is a follow up in case anyone is interested. I visited the apiary today and found that the Apidea was completely empty. No bees, No Candy, No queen.... even the stored honey in the frames was gone. It looked as though something may have hatched out of the cell because there was a nice little round hole chewed in the bottom. However, I did notice that there was also a hole on the *inside* of the "queen" cell (i.e. between the cell and the comb) and I was wondering if the bees themselves had torn the cell down or whether this damage had occurred after emergence. Any comments ? This has certainly been a great learning experience for me and I would like to thank all of you who have contributed to the discussion. Many Thanks, - Paul - -- Paul Walton Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk 78 Russell Road, Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. Tel. +44 (0)1525 875570 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:08:55 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: What a dilemma! In a message dated 96-08-16 11:51:47 EDT, SYSAM@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (Aaron Morris) writes: << In fact, one researcher (perhaps more?) suggest killing off the field bees prior to the onset of cooler weather so any mites they carry will not be passed on to the following generations of bees. Perhaps that is the answer to this question, relieve the congestion by euthenasia for the current field force. I was incredulous when I read the suggestion, but I specifically asked that question at the mite workshop held at BetterBee this past weekend (attended by over 140 beekeepers) and no one shot it down. Such a strategy certainly will preclude harvesting the fall flow, but will address the congestion. >> Well I'll sure give it my best shot, as an idiotic idea, at best! After Hurricane Hugo, that's just exactly what happened to me, when my field force was all out on the goldenrod and astor, on warm fall afternoons, when they did that massive aerial mosquito spraying project. The field force was effectively euthanized. Sadly there were few survivors that spring, in the areas where they were hit. All had too small clusters to make it through the cold. Thank God, I had a couple hundred hives outside the application area, or I would have had NOTHING to put in my boxes the next spring. As it was, I had a lot I couldn't fill, so I lost a lot of equipment, besides hundreds of hives. (Interestingly one "official" state person took slides of these stacks of empty equipment, which he now shows as an example of "what happens if beekeepers don't keep ahead of varroa." We didn't have varroa then!) Nosirree! I want my bees kept healthy and strong ALL the time, and working on a flow whenever possible. If you want to lose the field force, simply move the bees on a nice sunny fall afternoon, when they are out working hard. I'll say your odds are about 75% that hive won't make it through the winter, though. Sorry, if I'm being too blunt, but that idea really got my dander up! Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Early Harvest In a message dated 96-08-16 08:56:42 EDT, Aaron Morris writes: << Problem is, now that I still have a late summer population in my hives and no honey supers, the hives are CROWDED! Most have massive bee beards on the bottom boards and I'm concerned that I will be encouraging late season swarms to ease the congestion. I'm torn between giving back an empty super (which conflicts with Apistan treatment) and just letting the bees bear with the overpopulation. If a hive were to swarm this late in the season it will be hard pressed to recover in time for winter, yet if I don't protect against mites the hives may be succeptible to similar losses as last year. This is a real quandry. Any suggestions? Aaron Morris - thinking, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't!?" >> I'm going to add another dimension to your quandry. I'm thinking that I sure wouldn't want to remove supers, if you anticipate a flow, even if they don't happen to swarm. During the next two months, I want my queens to be making every baby I can get them to make. I want to go into winter with as many young bees as possible. I sure don't want them to shut down, and go into winter with old bees. If they have no supers, you know the queen will not have a chance to lay. I have seen bees plug out the brood chamber so bad that they not only had no young bees, they had no place to cluster. Too much honey can be fatal. They require *some* empty cells in which to cluster. Plus....I'd be glad for some extra feed honey come spring. It would be preferable to have it in deep boxes, so I could put a couple frames into the brood chamber of any hive that is light in March. But I'd take it any way I could, rather than throw it away. Why not use the fall flow with deep frames of foundation? Then next spring you can use these frames of honey, both to feed your bees, and to renew the comb in the brood chamber. You can cut your investment in equipment temporarily, by placing deep frames in double shallows, rather than buying new deeps. Then you'll cull the junk frames next spring. You could also use these new frames of honey, for making nucs. One good heavy frame of honey into each nuc, then you KNOW they won't starve, should you get busy and not feed them on schedule. PS: When I'm working to get foundation drawn, I've found it best to have some comb mixed in to get them started. My system needs three frames of comb, and seven frames of foundation. Two combs are put on the outside, because they rarely do a good job drawing against the wall. And one, preferably a light one, in the center to get them up throught the excluder and working on the wax. If you don't have any spare comb, of course, it's not an option. But then I move frames to the wall, as soon as they are drawn, to avoid them making brace comb to the wall, etc. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:48:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: What a dilemma! AM>Aaron Morris - Still thinking damned if you do, damned if you don't!? I see no problem at all for you or anyone else and that is to follow the golden rule of successful farmers the world around that has been in use for as long as the day man moved from gathering to growing for his and other's needs. If you don't have a problem don't treat! --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... A flash of dew, a bee or two, ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 18:17:42 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Organization: N/A Subject: Re: Steam to disinfect equipment Aaron Morris wrote: > > Nope, not hot enough. Autoclaving will work if you have an autoclave > big enough, otherwise it's flame or nukes. > /AaI have not seen the answer to this question since I have been subscribed to Bee-L. What temperature is required, and for how long, to kill the two types of foulbrood spores? Anyone have that information? Thanks -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:24:41 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: What a dilemma! > Allen Dick posted to my previous query: > > I'm curious. Have you sampled your mite levels? Are other > > beekeepers in your area treating simultaneously? What does your > > local bee extension agent say? Other local hobbyist and > > commercial beekeepers? > > I have diligently kept grease patties in all my hives all summer > long, so I'm ASSUMING that tracheal mites are not a problem. I have > not done ether rolls to test for varroa, but I have examined drone > brood, found nothing. No news of mite infestations from beekeeping > buddies in my beekeepers association > Seems we're all running > scared from last year, treating prophylactically to make sure that > we get even the invisible mites. > If there are beekeepers within flight distance of my yards, I don't > know of them. All feral hives (trees and buildings) that I knew of > last year were gone this spring, some of which hade been there most > of my lifetime (40 some years). I have found only one feral hive > newly established this season and can't say with assuredness from > whence it came. > Exactly. Problem is that the latest opinion is that NOW, right NOW, > is the time to treat. Have a look at this month's ABJ, which is > touting NOW as the time to treat for mites to make sure that the > next and subsequent brood cycle will be mite free to assure that the > wintering population will be a healthy one. Okay, Looking at this, I can't see why you believe you have to treat. Without an accurate count on the mites (if any), you can only be driven by fear and speculation. Do an alcohol wash or a mite drop test and see if you actually have a problem. Then you will know what you have to do. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:26:52 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: American foulbrood I've got a 26k text file that contains appendices 1 and 3 of the New Zealand Pest Management Strategy for American foulbrood. App 1 is a description of Bacillus larvae and App 3 is a set of references that are used in the PMS. Most of this was prepared by Dr Mark Goodwin, HortResearch. Mark is still conducting a variety of research related to AFB among other things, helping to provide a scientific basis for what the National Beekeepers' Assn is attempting to do. To get the file, write a NEW MESSAGE (i.e., DON'T reply to this as you read it, or your response will go to the entire list!). Send it to: nickw@wave.co.nz And put the subject line: SEND AFB You can find out more about our proposed PMS on the NZ Beekeeping Home Page (ref in my sig file). (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:43:10 +0000 Reply-To: joe.hemmens@ndirect.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Foul Brood. Dear All I'm not trying to be pedantic but as far as I understand it sterliisation is the killing of ALL living material, whereas disinfection is killing, removing or inactivating such organisms. So strerilisation of hive parts may well need require autoclaving. In an article in 1992 Prof Len Heath commented that AFB is relatively resistant to heat as it has large spores, nonetheless he suggests that there is some evidence that combs from infected colonies may be disinfected by being melted down and made into foundation. He was not advocating this and it would probably involve an element of risk. Many years ago EB Wedmore gave the following: Destruction of disease germs, AFB 12 minutes in water at 100C EFB 10 minutes in water at 65C He wrote this in 1932. Since the temperature required to melt wax for foundation is only 65C this is quite a wide divergence. Since hive parts have for many years been disinfected by scorching, is it not likely that a thorough steaming would prove effective at controlling AFB and EFB. Prof Heath also suggests that immersion for 5 - 10 minutes in Caustic Soda would leave hive parts infection free. Best wishes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:40:51 +0000 Reply-To: james.peterson.2@m.k12.ut.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: James Max Peterson Organization: UtahLink Subject: Mites in Utah Hi All: If you live in Utah around Salt Lake City, I would like to know if you have tested for mites and the results. I can not find indication of mites in my 9 hives, so why treat them? James Peterson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:42:52 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Foul Brood. > Since the temperature required to melt wax for foundation is only > 65C this is quite a wide divergence. Since hive parts have for many > years been disinfected by scorching, is it not likely that a > thorough steaming would prove effective at controlling AFB and EFB. > > Prof Heath also suggests that immersion for 5 - 10 minutes in > Caustic Soda would leave hive parts infection free. The question of disinfection of hive parts has been one that has come up numerous times for discussion on this list. IMO it is a waste of time -- and hard on the woodenware -- unless: * You live where you are certain that there are no hives with *any* level of AFB within flying distance of your hives * You live in a jurisdiction where medication is forbidden to all. * No person might discard a partially consumed tub of honey in a dumpster or garbage pail. (I have had friendly neigbours innocently put out old honey buckets for my bees to clean out). AFB is a funny disease. Contrary to the superstitious beliefs of many beekeepers, * It requires quite a few spores to be fed to a susceptible larva in a non hygienic hive at just the right time to produce the characteristic breakdown with rotten larvae and scale. * It can be cleared up -- often permanently -- with a little tetracycline applied properly * Some strtains of bees are quite resistant to it * Breakdown can be prevented by preventative dusting, or today when it seems everyone should be using TM grease patties routinely, Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:51:23 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Smoking Mean Bees Sorry about the last post (Re: Foul Brood) -- it got away before it was finished, hence the non-sentance at the end, and a perhaps unfinished train of thought. Oh well... Anyhow here is something I just posted on sci.ag.beesomething Since it is of perennial interest and I put some work into it, I offer it here. Comments and additions are, of course welcome. >I have a very agressive hive and last time I checked it I was stung many >times and passed out from 50+ stings. I have to re queen in October and am >not looking forward to opening the hive.. of course i will put heavier >clothes on this time but if anyone has any ideas .. pls. > If you have other hives in the group, just wait until a flow is on -- bees are flying freely and fast in and out, and move the whole hive 20 feet away (and turn it around 180 degrees too, if you like). Most of the mean bees will drift into the other hives and you will easily find the queen and be able to replace her. The bees will add to the other hives and continue to make honey, so nothing will be lost, and the hive will soon have more bees from the emerging brood. Otherwise (no flow, no other hives) just add a tablespoon of 34-0-0 fertilizer on top of the fire smouldering in your smoker and go to work. The resulting laughing gas will make them better humoured -- seriously. BTW, many (most) beekeepers don't know how to use a smoker properly. Here's a recap: * Use a fuel that smoulders and gives lots of cool dense smoke. Burlap is easily available. A roll of cardboard will do fine too. * Hold your bare hand in front of the smoker and puff. If it burns you, it will not calm your bees. Add damp burlap if the fire is too hot. * Once the smoker is going properly, squeeze it gently while moving the spout evenly and slowly across the entire entrance slit. * Wait for the bees to start fanning (30 seconds). * Repeat several times at 30 second intervals if the bees are likely to be mean. * The bees will attempt to change the airflow to avoid the smoke, so be sure to smoke any other holes or entrances the same way. * Watch how the smoke is being exhausted form the hive. Look for the air intake point -- it is the most effective place to use a puff of dense smoke. * Quit if the bees start to run wildly around -- You've overdone it. The idea is to get the bees circulating air, then use their currents to carry smoke to the whole hive. Do not oversmoke. A little goes a long ways. The idea is to confuse the bees a bit and mask pheremones, not to burn their wings off, or set them to running. Once the hive is open, and if you are anticipating resistance, smoke the top and bottom on each box as it is exposed, making sure that the smoke actually goes into the box. If the wind is wrong, the smoke will merely be blown over the top. MAke the wind work for you. Re-smoke each exposed box every few minutes if the bees appear to be reorganising. Stand boxes you are not working on on their *ends*, it disorganises the bees, and makes smoking easier. *Do not use any more smoke than necessary*. The instructions above are for thorough smoking in difficult circumstances. Often little or no smoke is required -- especially if hives are small and the bees are well fed. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:42:42 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darlene Scribilo Subject: bee tight suits Has anyone had experience with the "new type bee suit" marketed by Golden Bee Products of Metairie ,LA. In particular has anyone found that bee(s) were able to get in the suit? Please respond off the list to Darlene dags@wimsey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 20:35:41 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Deb & Greg Kalicin Organization: HARMONY FARM Subject: Are the bees getting ready for cold weather already? > I have been checking our ten hives every 10-18 days for v-mites. The last > time was 14 days ago, today I found all ten glued down for winter. Two > weeks ago we were having the only summer temperatures (80+ degrees) and > now it has cooled to the upper 70's and possibly low 80's and into the > 50's to 60"s at night. Has anyone done a study on the relationship of > bees glueing the hives tight to when the cold weather sets in? We are > from the St. Lawrence River Valley. > > Deb & Greg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:58:02 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Bees & Propolis Bees that make use of a lot of propolis will glue the hive shut for spring, for summer, and for autumn, too. Some of my colonies are gooey with propolis and some are not. I do not know what evolutionary advantage goes with lots of propolis; both gooey and non-gooey bees live in my apiaries. Do any breeders breed for or against this characteristic? Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 22:41:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bernard J.F. Blachere" Subject: Re: Nicolt's Addrees At 14:23 96-08-08 -0300, you wrote: >Please, if anyone knows the Nicolt's addrees in France, could let me know? >I'm needing the cage to honeybee queen rearing. Could you supply the >addrees and/or Fax of this suplly house? >Thank you. >Jorge Tello Duran > Nicotplast SA Christian Nicot 39260 Maisod France tel : 84 42 02 49 fax : 84 42 34 43 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:44:50 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Zaldo Subject: Looking for Knoxville, TN area Bee Keepers I have recently retired from the US military (Marines) and am anxious to take up hobby bee keeping (for the first time)next spring. I would like to hear from bee keepers in the Knoxville TN area. Any and all information (local Bee organizations, local suppliers, conditions, etc.) would be greatly appreciated. I am currently "between jobs" and would be interested in helping out to get some hands on experience. I have no equipment, so I would need to borrow protective gear. Please reply via E-Mail to 102153.1654@Compuserve.Com Thank you Harry J. Bowie Farragut, TN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:15:38 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Don Bowen Subject: Re: Looking for Knoxville, TN area Bee Keepers This came to me from another list. I am placing it on this list for comment. I am a skeptic of both miracle and academic cures so what is the consenus?. From: lowly Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:45:52 -0700 To: mmlist-l@newciv.org Subject: Mint Oils May Save Honeybees By David Sharp .c The Associated Press MORGANTOWN, W.Va. (Aug. 17) - The nation's honeybees may be saved from mites by spearmint, wintergreen and peppermint. The natural oils have proven to be more than a folk remedy in killing and controlling bloodsucking mites that have nearly wiped out wild honeybees, according to a West Virginia University entomologist. "We're close to eradication where we can knock them out totally," said James Amrine. "We're going to continue working in that direction: total eradication." The proof, Amrine says, is in 46 honeybee colonies treated about 60 miles east in Cumberland, Md., where applications of wintergreen have produced the healthiest honeybees in years. "There is no doubt those bees are almost back to where they were before these mites came into this country," he said. The mites, which entered the United States 12 years ago, have destroyed 90 percent of wild honeybees, researchers say. And commercial and hobbyist beekeepers last spring reported average losses of 50 percent in 22 states surveyed by the Georgia-based American Beekeeping Federation, said Troy H. Fore Jr., executive secretary. The harsh winter contributed to losses, especially in northern tier states like Maine, which reported 80 percent losses. Herb Hanscom, a blueberry grower in Machias, Maine, said growers paid dearly to get their crops pollinated because beekeepers did not want to bring their remaining bees to Maine. He and other growers were disappointed with the quality of bees that did make the trip. "As near as we can tell, the hives did not have as many bees in them," Hansom said. The disaster follows a continual weakening of honeybees since the mites appeared in the mid-1980s. The original invader, the tiny tracheal mite, crawls into the breathing tubes of bees and lives off their blood. The varroa mite, the size of a small tick, attaches to bee adults and developing eggs and lives off their blood, weakening and killing them. In Cumberland, Bob Noel stumbled upon his natural oils remedy when mites struck his colonies last year. He put wintergreen oil in a hamburger-patty-shaped mixture of shortening and sugar, then placed it in a hive. "I said, "Well, they're dying anyway.' I came back a couple of days later and there were no mites on the bees. There were several thousand (dead) mites on the bottom of the hive," he said. That inspired tests of natural oils like tea tree, pennyroyal, patchouly, spearmint and peppermint. Noel also plans to try lavender. He thinks most mint oils will work. Amrine was skeptical, but he could not argue with the results. Noel's honeybees are healthy and producing up to 150 pounds of honey for the season in each hive. "Most of the beekeepers around the United States would be envious of his hives," Amrine said. Research currently centers on the most effective way to apply the mint oils to the bees. Amrine said one of Noel's more effective methods consists of putting a greasy salve of wintergreen on a "tracking strip" that comes into contact with bees. And Noel is working on an advanced version that is constantly replenished by a feeder. Another method involves a mixture of sugar water and mint oils the bees drink when flowers are not producing nectar. Then there are the so-called "grease patties," which are placed in hives. Under the systems, the bees come into contact with the messy mixture and ingest it when they clean themselves. During winter months, they will consume the grease patties to get the sugar. The mint kills and weakens varroa mites and renders them unable to reproduce, Amrine said. Tracheal mites get trapped in the oil and die because they cannot get into bees' breathing tubes, he said. Amrine is so confident in the preliminary findings he has posted the formulas on the Internet so beekeepers can begin using them. Anita Collins, a research geneticist at the U.S. Department of Agriculture's bee research lab in Beltsville, Md., said the research into natural oils is important because mites have developed resistance to the only pesticide available. The oils, if effective, might be preferable to traditional chemical pesticides. Meanwhile, scientists are continuing the lengthy process of developing mite-resistant bees. But Ms. Collins said she cannot blame beekeepers for tinkering with the mint oils in the interim. "There's a lot of them who have lost bees and they're ready to try anything," she said. "The other choice is to lose their bees." <---- End Forwarded Message ----> Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA Senior Software Engineer Bee Point acres Smith Automation Systems, inc USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 21 Don.bowen@integrators.com 33 16' 04 N 116 59' 19 W organic gardener, woodworker, beekeeper, reader 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 3 cats, 2 acres, no TV ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 13:26:34 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Essential Oils for Mites > I am a skeptic of both miracle and academic cures so what > is the consenus?. > The natural oils have proven to be more than a folk remedy in > killing and controlling bloodsucking mites that have nearly wiped > out wild honeybees, according to a West Virginia University > entomologist. > That inspired tests of natural oils like tea tree, pennyroyal, > patchouly, spearmint and peppermint. Noel also plans to try > lavender. He thinks most mint oils will work. > Research currently centers on the most effective way to apply the > mint oils to the bees. > Amrine is so confident in the preliminary findings he has posted the > formulas on the Internet so beekeepers can begin using them. I know youa are all going to ask, so here's the answer: http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm (If you can't get it yourself I can arrange to email you the text). Now, I was really quite impressed with this -- and as you all know, I am a skeptic. There has been a lot of rumour circulating about essential oils, and frankly it has been hard to believe. It seems no matter what common oil you try, patchouli, wintergreen, pepermint -- voila, it works! Hmmm. But maybe where there is smoke, there is fire. What I want to know is: * Has anyone been able to replicate this work? * Does anyone done any lab work on the effects of these various oils on mites? * Does anyone remember the sources for these materials -- It was posted here or elsewhere some short time back. * What is the cost of these materials? * Are they acceptable (maybe registered) as food additives? * What is the difference between peppermint oil and menthol? I'd appreciate if anyone can shed some light on these questions, and would appreciate responses either to the list or personally. If many responses come to me personally, I will summarise. Any responses received directly by me will be quoted anonymously unless the writer specifically gives permission to be identified as a source of specific information. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: To dissolve Propolis you.... At 01:11 8/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: Dave from Scranton >Subject: Re: To dissolve Propolis you.... >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Bruce Hamilton wrote: >> > It is with great interest that I read this message about removing propolis >> > from clothing. One question. Does it say on the bottle what "Lighter Fluid" >> > is chemically? >> >> >> To my nose..lighter fluid is varasol... > > I believe it's got quite a bit of acetone and maybe toulene in it. > > >****************************************************************************** >Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | ***ALERT shameless plug ALERT*** >The Internet Cafe | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | ASK ME FOR A COPY OF WEBPHONE!!! >(717) 344-1969 | (or try www.scranton.com/webphone) >ddc1@lydian.scranton.com | >****************************************************************************** > URL => http://www.scranton.com > For those of you who might have missed my earlier post concerning what Lighter Fluid is (so the "guessing" won't continue), it is primarily Naptha or in other words, dry-cleaning solution. Regards, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:41:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Early Harvest At 08:35 8/16/96 EDT, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: Aaron Morris >Subject: Early Harvest >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Ok, so I'm being a contientious beekeeper, pulling supers at the >beginning of the fall flow so I can get the Apistan strips in to ensure >that I'll have bees next spring. Problem is, now that I still have a >late summer population in my hives and no honey supers, the hives are >CROWDED! Most have massive bee beards on the bottom boards and I'm >concerned that I will be encouraging late season swarms to ease the >congestion. I'm torn between giving back an empty super (which >conflicts with Apistan treatment) and just letting the bees bear with >the overpopulation. If a hive were to swarm this late in the season >it will be hard pressed to recover in time for winter, yet if I don't >protect against mites the hives may be succeptible to similar losses >as last year. This is a real quandry. Any suggestions? > >Aaron Morris - thinking, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't!?" > Aaron, IMHO, I would put the empty super on. There will be enough come and go, over the next 45 days to treat adequately, you will possibly stave off the late swarming and they will be able to actually store more for the winter. Cheers, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:04:09 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: What a dilemma! Aaron, Here's my two cents on treatment. I will have all my bees treated by Sept 15th, no later. Many in my area (San Joaquin Valley, Calif) have it done by Sept 1st. I am just too busy to make it that soon. It seems as if the pressure from Vmites has lessened due (I think) to more treatments being done on a timely basis. 2 or 3 years ago (I think I've blocked it out because of sticker shock) I finished by Oct. 5, had a great summer honey crop, bomber hives, minimal pesticide damage, and picked up 900-1000 deadouts by Dec 1st. I monitor the mite level by taking 200 bee samples from the broodnest and shaking them in alcohol and straining them. I usually start seeing a climb in the middle of Aug. During the summer I probably average 1-2 vmites/100. My area is different like everyone else but I think life cycles are life cycles and mites will establish a pattern that is easily monitored. What I wish we had available to us is more concise data on economic injury levels based on sampling techniques. If anyone has something on that I'd like to read it. Another thing that has alot to do with mite populations (my opinion) is migration. I move an average of 6-7times in a year for pollination purposes and have found that the mites flucuate with the moves just as the bees do. I agree with Allen, to base treatments on actual populations not calendars (yet they will follow the calendar + or - a few weeks) and regional treatments are more beneficial. I'm less of a boxkeeper and more of a beekeeper since more of us here have quit gambling on "to treat or not to treat". I don't know what you pay for strips but it's still cheap insurance. Good Luck! Brian Tassey Alta Apiaries Kaykin@ aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Beluch Subject: T-Mites & Behavior Changes ?? Hello all, I was just wondering -- has anyone out there noticed marked changes in their hives' agressive behavior when the bees are infected with T-mites ? One of my hives has a very heavy infestation of T-mites, and boy, is she nasty!!! Had to break down and buy a bee-suit just for this hive. Last time I really worked it, I combed about 300 stingers from my canvas gloves. And anyone who uses canvas gloves with nasty hives, knows I've now bought a pair of leather ones.....And yes, a new queen in in place. Anyway, I would really be interested in any observations. Thanks. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:04:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Charles Cannon Subject: Removing bees from a house. Hello, fellow beekeepers I'am in the middle of removing a hive of bees from a friends old house i set a new box hive next to the hole there useing to go back into the house in pluged up the rest. I made a funnel in reduced the end to 3/8 inchs to put over the hole so they can't get back in the house the new box hive has 1 frame of honey and 1 frame of brood to get them to move to there new home maybe. ?1. Is how long to wait to give them a new queen the old one is going to be left in the wall after all the workers come out? ?2. If anybody else has tryed this before I would like to know how your job turned out in the end? Thank you! Charles e-mail at: member8699@aol.com artec@msn.com BEE END & BEE HAPPY!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:37:07 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark F. Almond" Subject: Re: Removing bees from a house. Charles, I have tryed this any times and it works great. One problem is the honey and wax will be left in the wall which may cause problems later. I leave my set-up for about a week, I go back with a new queen (caged) and introduce her to the bees. Now you have a working hive of bees. Leaving the hive there and removing the screen from the opening will cause the newly hived bees to go back in and rob out the old colony of all the honey leaving the old queen and a few worker bees left to die. You would only have the wax left to cause any problems. Hope this helps. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:49:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Apistan timing REGARDING Apistan timing Joel Govostes writes: "What's the big deal about getting the strips in now?? Sorry, but I just don't get it. Get your fall flow and super well so they won't swarm. If they do, it's likely the parent colonies won't be in very good shape going into winter. And neither will the swarms, of course. The ideal time to treat, as I understand it, is when there is little or no brood; then all the mites are gravitating to adult bees, instead of being hidden in capped brood cells. SO, that means October, maybe into November around here, while the bees are still somewhat active." This was my philosphy too, last year, before I lost most of my bees to Varroa. We generally get a good fall flow in southeastern Michigan, and my hive population is *way* up after removing summer supers. However, I learned (by the best teacher) that when the colony stops producing drones (basically right now) that the varroa mite then goes into the worker cells, the very workers which should be the ones to provide the winter cluster bees. When these workers are decimated, there is no hope for the colony. Therefore, my present practice is to give up the fall flow in order to save the hive. I try to put in the Apistan strips as soon as the summer supers are removed. Incidentally, I am harvesting my summer flow now, and am getting up to 160 lbs per colony (average=126 lbs) from new package colonies (single queen). Ever since the mites killed off the feral bees, I have had record yields. Is this the case elsewhere? Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:57:00 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dan Mihalyfi Subject: Re: Removing bees from a house. Comments: cc: Charles Cannon At 01:04 AM 8/18/96 -0400, you wrote: >?1. Is how long to wait to give them a new queen the old one is going to be >left in the >wall after all the workers come out? >?2. If anybody else has tryed this before I would like to know how your job >turned out >in the end? > >Thank you! >Charles >e-mail at: >member8699@aol.com >artec@msn.com >BEE END & BEE HAPPY!!!!!!!!! > > I have never "trapped bees out" before. I have asked a bee remover this same question. What happens with the queen situation in the "new" hive? His reply was: "The old queen becomes stressed with no supply laddened returning foragers, she will then come out and into the "new" hive." Dan Mihalyfi Mihalyfi Apiaries Watsonville, CA 95076 mihalyfi@santacruz.k12.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:22:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Extracted Supers REGARDING re> Extracted Supers Jim Moore writes: "What is typically done with supers after extraction? How does one prepare and where do one store them for the winter? I placed them back on the hive to get cleaned up but don't expect to leave them there for the winter. Both my hives will be 2 deeps with a medium when I place the apistan. Should the medium with honey be left for the winter or stored and put on in the spring? The medioum super are not yet capped." In my opinion, backed up by sad experience, now is the time to get on the Apistan strips. I would take the medium super and extract it, even if it is not capped, and put it and the others on a stack near your hives for the bees to clean out. Put a queen excluder under the stack, elevate it a little with a couple boards; you will keep mice out and the bees will do a great job in cleaning and drying out your supers. I have done this for years and have never had any problem at all with robbing of hives. You could leave them on top of the hive, as you have done, but then you could not immediately give Apistan, and in case of a fall flow, honey could reappear in the supers. I store these bee-cleaned supers in a dry room with a queen excluder or a hive cover on top of the stack (mice prevention again). Wax moths will not be a problem if the combs are dry and free of pollen or brood remnants. If these conditions do not hold, you will need to put paradiclorobenzene crystals on top of the stack (not touching comb) to control wax moths. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:29:16 +0000 Reply-To: joe.hemmens@ndirect.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Apistan timing Joel Govostes wrote - > The ideal time to treat, as I understand it, is when there is little or no > brood; then all the mites are gravitating to adult bees, instead of being > hidden in capped brood cells. SO, that means October, maybe into November > around here, while the bees are still somewhat active." Ted Fisher replied - > This was my philosphy too, last year, before I lost most of my bees to Varroa. > We generally get a good fall flow in southeastern Michigan, and my hive > population is *way* up after removing summer supers. However, I learned (by > the best teacher) that when the colony stops producing drones (basically right > now) that the varroa mite then goes into the worker cells, the very workers > which should be the ones to provide the winter cluster bees. When these > workers are decimated, there is no hope for the colony. > > Therefore, my present practice is to give up the fall flow in order to save > the hive. I try to put in the Apistan strips as soon as the summer supers are > removed. I'm glad that Ted Fisher wrote this because this is what I think too! When brood rearing begins to diminish after the height of the season - and there will be a lot of Varroa bred on the bees - there will be less brood available per breeding mite. The consequence of this is, as I understand it, is that each larvae has a far greater number of mites parasitising it. The consequence is a population of larvae - that one would wish to mature to provide an overwintering population - either failing to survive or being so seriously deformed as being useless for any purposes and prone to other diseases. I would suggest that treating bees as soon as the honey crop is removed and then feeding to stimulate a healthy overwintering population as the best strategy. Although I don't use Apistan or equivalent, they do at least have the advantage of providing a very quick knockdown of the majority of the population of mites, so one could feed only a few days after treatment in the knowledge that the colony is likely to rear healthy young bees for the winter. > Incidentally, I am harvesting my summer flow now, and am getting up > to 160 lbs per colony (average=126 lbs) from new package colonies > (single queen). Ever since the mites killed off the feral bees, I > have had record yields. Is this the case elsewhere? Apparently honey yields in Germany have risen, once feral bees have been infested, and beekeepers have developed strategies for living with Varroa. Also, and I don't know about beekeepers in the US, but in the UK there have certainly been quite a few beekeepers who practise 'let-alone' beekeeping. The 'let-alone' beekeepers do not treat their bees against Varroa (or anything else!) and provide a reservoir of mites to infest other colonies whose owners take more care. After a year or two the 'let-alone' beekeepers give up beekeeping or decide to treat their bees - and the level of reinfestation drops. Best wishes Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:28:53 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Apologies in advance Ted Fischer, I'm unable to mail to you directly, SMTP keeps bouncing it back to me. Could you drop me a direct E-Line so I might figure this out? Thanks. /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:56:21 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: "let alone" beekeepers recently, joe hemmens wrote: "Also, and I don't know about beekeepers in the US, but in the UK there have certainly been quite a few beekeepers who practise 'let-alone' beekeeping. The 'let-alone' beekeepers do not treat their bees against Varroa (or anything else!) and provide a reservoir of mites to infest other colonies whose owners take more care. After a year or two the 'let-alone' beekeepers give up beekeeping or decide to treat their bees - and the level of reinfestation drops." i'm not sure i totally agree with this statement. if, as everyone suggests, and has been my own experience, a "let-alone" hive will die over winter due to not being treated, then where is the reservoir of mites coming from? we know dead bees cannot support mites, and that they die off shortly after the colony dies. so, i can't agree with this statement. however, if a severly weakened colony survives the winter with mites, then it could re-infest the locale. but my own experience shows that an infested colony dies over the winter. i lost my 3 hives last winter, altho i never saw a mite. i now have 6 hives obtained from people's roofs. all of these were at least 3 years old, quite strong, survived with no chemicals at all and are still going strong. my hope is that they are resistant or are developing resistance. how are we to develop resistant bees if we treat all bees? those left untreated, and which survive, can certainly be declared as resistant, even if just somewhat. natural selection will cause some colonies to survive, and many to die. the ones that survive should be split and propagated, as i have done, and allowed to continue to verify that the resistance is real. any thoughts? (\ John /) {|||8- in -8|||} (/ Santa Cruz \) California ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:10:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MR MARK G SPAGNOLO Subject: bikini bee removal! Hi: I have been a subscriber to this list for almost a year now and I really enjoy the technical and practical discussions, but I thought I might lighten up the discussion with the details of the bee removal I completed yesterday. Before I give the details, I had better tell you that I live on the Big Island of Hawaii. I received a telephone call from a property management company looking for someone to remove "a giant swarm of wild bees" from a rental house on the north end of the island. They were paying "whatever it takes" to remove the bees. Now I usually don't do removals, as they can be an all day job and are seldom successful on the first try, but since I am going on vacation in ten days the money would be helpful. I followed the directions and ended up at a beautiful multi-million dollar house sitting right on a beautiful beach. The place was owned by the heiress to a large oil company, who ran it as a vacation rental. The "giant swarm" turned out to be a small puny bunch of bees that were trying to build a colony under the wooden shingles on the second floor. Although I had to use a ladder, the job was done in less than half an hour. The view of the beach from the ladder was fabulous. Fortunately I had my emergency swimsuit in the back of the truck! After collecting the money ($100), I walked out the back gate and right on to the beach. The rest of the day was spent enjoying the sand, sun and bikinis. Yesteday I realized that even with all the stings and the hot, heavy work, there are some fringe benefits to beekeeping that are unlike any other business! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:50:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Aug 1996 to 15 Aug 1996 Paul van Westendorp wrote. > HBTM-resistant beestock may therefore be only one component of an entire > mite control strategy. Similarly, chemical controls occupy only one > part of the overall mite control effort. I don't think most beekeepers > are inclined to favor chemical controls over mite-resistant beestock, > but the concerns about residues, efficacy, applicators safety, product > registration and all other factors associated with the use of chemicals, > make this inevitably a more frequently discussed subject matter. No problem with these observations! Apart from one or two enlightened individuals all we are asked for are queens, there is little or no mention of T-mite resistance, and that was the jist of my first post. I would have thought with the announcement of T-mite resistant stock that beekeepers would be clamouring for them. But quite the reverse. It still makes sense both econonmically and physically, re-queen with resistant stock, and save on the time effort and cost of chemical treatments. In the UK where T-mite first came from, there is no treatment necessary or available for T-mites! Is this not the aim of bee keepers in North America? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:51:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Essential Oils for Mites W. Allen Dick wrote. > >* Does anyone done any lab work on the effects of these various oils >on mites? > >* Does anyone remember the sources for these materials -- It was >posted here or elsewhere some short time back. > >* What is the cost of these materials? > >* Are they acceptable (maybe registered) as food additives? > >* What is the difference between peppermint oil and menthol? Some time ago I posted this information, the only comment was from Andy M at Simon Frazer reporting he was getting involved with lab work on essential oils. All essential oils are readily available at health food stores, sometimes as food additives, and for general 'wellness'. They are reasonable in price. I believe the ultimate answer will be the method of use. My information is that they all work better in a sugar syrup solution ie. fed to the bees. Menthol works by evaporation, and therefore is used in the breathing passages. Is it possible that the feeding of essential oils affects the hemolymph? PS. Since writing this I had the time to log on and read the Amrine report and would suggest that you all do the same it is very startling reading. In cast you have deleted the address it is http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "M. Kevin Outterson" Subject: Bumble Bee procreation Does anyone have any suggestions on effective ways to raise bumble bees for greenhouse use (other than purchasing the bees by mail?). Kevin Outterson Jonesborough Orchards ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:07:15 +0000 Reply-To: joe.hemmens@ndirect.co.uk Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: "let alone" beekeepers recently, John Day wrote - > recently, joe hemmens wrote: > "Also, and I don't know about beekeepers in the US, but in the UK > there have certainly been quite a few beekeepers who practise > 'let-alone' beekeeping. The 'let-alone' beekeepers do not treat > their bees against Varroa (or anything else!) and provide a reservoir > of mites to infest other colonies whose owners take more care. After > a year or two the 'let-alone' beekeepers give up beekeeping or > decide to treat their bees - and the level of reinfestation drops." > > i'm not sure i totally agree with this statement. if, as everyone suggests, > and has been my own experience, a "let-alone" hive will die over winter due > to not being treated, then where is the reservoir of mites coming from? we > know dead bees cannot support mites, and that they die off shortly after the > colony dies. so, i can't agree with this statement. > > however, if a severly weakened colony survives the winter with mites, then > it could re-infest the locale. but my own experience shows that an infested > colony dies over the winter. i lost my 3 hives last winter, altho i never > saw a mite. What I really meant was.. The first varroa mites were detected in the UK on 4th April 1992. In the South (Devon). Since then the infestation has been spreading throughout the country. It has not yet reached the North of the country. The point that I was trying to make was that when an area becomes infested - for a year or two - beekeepers who do not treat their infested bees sustain a reservoir of mites that will reinfest the colonies of beekeepers who do treat their bees. After a year of two, those beekeepers who do not treat their bees either give up beekeeping because they no-longer have any bees to keep, or treat their bees. I believe it is the experience of beekeepers in the UK who kept bees in the areas that became infested first, found that reinfestation was less of a problem a couple of years later. Of course this is hard to substantiate. I would much rather keep bees next door to someone who treats their bees rather than someone who does not and who maybe acquires more bees each year when theirs die of disease. > i now have 6 hives obtained from people's roofs. all of these were at least > 3 years old, quite strong, survived with no chemicals at all and are still > going strong. my hope is that they are resistant or are developing resistance. > > how are we to develop resistant bees if we treat all bees? those left > untreated, and which survive, can certainly be declared as resistant, even > if just somewhat. natural selection will cause some colonies to survive, > and many to die. the ones that survive should be split and propagated, as > i have done, and allowed to continue to verify that the resistance is real. > > any thoughts? > I dearly hope that we will all be able to keep bees who have developed a resistance to Varroa. I suppose there are two approaches - Investigate and qualify the traits and characteristics of bees who show resistance to Varroa. Some colonies seem to be more succesful than others at mutilating mites (by biting their legs, I think) for example and then breed for this characteristic. Utilise feral bees in the hope of finding a more resistant breed. I would love to think that this will work, and at the end of the day it might. But I think that the odds are stacked against it because - At least some research has shown that infested colonies are more likely to swarm - and therefore fill the feral niche in areas where beekeepers keep bees. It is probable that because of the time it takes for Varroa to destroy a colony (more than a season from first infestation, I think) there will always be swarms absconding and reverting to feral type. Swarms apparently often do not carry a high mite infestation. Lastly, the Western honeybee has only in the last 50 or so years been prey to Varroa and it is likely (in my opinion) to require a great deal of time before resistance could develop (evolve?). Indeed, by treating bees against Varroa we may be preventing this development of resistance. Some beekeepers advocate the removal of drone brood to reduce the mite population early in the year - in evolutionary terms we may therefore be selecting mites with a preference for worker brood. I know that not everyone agrees with the theory of evolution. I do hope that one way or the other we can breed Varroa resistant bees! Best wishes Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:08:30 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Storing Extracted Supers I have for several years stored extracted supers wet (not robbed out by the bees) in stacks, covered top and bottom, and dosed with paradichlorobenzene. Many of these supers have had brood in them. Stories about extracted supers being stored so that light discourages wax moths intrigue me. If supers were stored covered top and bottom with a queen excluder to deter mice and if the stack of supers were stored in an open-front shed outdoors (not in the dark), how many shallow supers in a stack (before the middle of the stack is dark enough for moths to work)? Has anyone tried this? Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:09:00 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Matt Ter Molen Subject: Re: Apistan timing I lost 8 of my 10 hives in Northeastern Illinois last winter. However, the hives that survived I was able to split and the packages that I purchased built up really well. I just harvested 5 medium supers per and will leave the fall flow for the bees. Incidently, I don't think that leaving the smaller (I know that it's different for each local) for the winter is bad practice. This will have the bees wintering on honey, not imitation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Foul Brood. Will steam kill Amecican Foulbrood spores? I know that simple boiling won't do it, so neither would atmospheric pressure steam at 100 C. I haven't heard of anyone trying higher pressure steam in an autoclave; my guess is that it would work but would also be rough on the woodenware. W. G. Miller Gaitherburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:43:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Re: Apitherapy Comments: To: "Lear Eddy (AE)" Comments: cc: General questions In-Reply-To: <"3214A43D"@smtp.aeci.co.za> Mr. Eddy: I don't have much information on this and am sending your message to two discussion lists for responses. Tom Sanford On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Lear Eddy (AE) wrote: > > Dear Malcolm, > I found your name on internet from a fairly old article "Focus on > Apitherapy". > I am the Chairman of the South African Federation of Bee-Farmers' > Associations. I am interested in finding out more about propolis and wish > to be directed to folk who may have done analytical testing on the product. > I believe that one of the constituents in propolis is Quercetin. This is > interesting as Quercetin is an anti-carcinogen. The specific substance I am > looking for is resveratrol. This is a natural antifungicide found in > certain plants, mainly skins of berries and grapes. I'm sure it could be > found in other parts of plants, but it has not been looked for, as generally > the vine is not eaten, only the fruit. If it is found in other plant parts > the chances are good that it should also be found in propolis. If you can > help me in this matter by giving me any leads, etc. I would be very > grateful. > Regards > Eddy Lear > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:00:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Re: honey Comments: To: Maureen Nelly Comments: cc: General questions In-Reply-To: <32187833.159@mhv.net> Am sending your query to a couple of lists for possible response. Tom Sanford On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Maureen Nelly wrote: > Hello...In reading your homepage I was hoping to find a source listing > local honey distributors in my area. I live in Ulster County in upstate > New York. Perhaps you can refer me to a publication or organization to > meet this objective. Thank you for your consideration. > > Maureen > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:55:30 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: White objects at hive entrance Hi, I did a quick check of my hives this weekend and noticed white objects resembling corn kernals at the entrance of one hive. Any ideas of what these might be? If so, what strategy do I need to know about before I go and diassemble the hive for closer inspection? Thanks for any input. Paul Cronshaw DC Santa BArbara, CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 03:50:30 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Canadian Border Opened to US Bees? > The first varroa mites were detected in the UK on 4th April 1992. In > the South (Devon). Since then the infestation has been spreading > throughout the country. It has not yet reached the North of the > country. The point that I was trying to make was that when an area > becomes infested - for a year or two - beekeepers who do not treat > their infested bees sustain a reservoir of mites that will reinfest > the colonies of beekeepers who do treat their bees. After a year of > two, those beekeepers who do not treat their bees either give up > beekeeping because they no-longer have any bees to keep, or treat > their bees. I believe it is the experience of beekeepers in the UK > who kept bees in the areas that became infested first, found that > reinfestation was less of a problem a couple of years later. Here in Alberta, Canada, there is presently a move afoot to try to obtain imports of US mainland bee stock via packages by attempting to have the current border closure to US mainland bees set aside. At present, Alberta has a few small pockets of varroa, but is largely unaffected. Because bees are moved around from area to area somewhat discretely, and to a very limited extent, the spread has been slow. There is no migratory beekeeping to speak of and any spread that there has been is directly a result of what little there is. One arguement against free access to cheap California packages and queens is that is that some package buyers will revert to running the bees one season, and gassing them in the fall, rather than wintering. Many (all) currently successful beekeepers winter their bees. Since running packages is more of a box keeping business than beekeeping, they are expected to have a lower level of skill and knowledge (THis was the case in the past). The thought is that the packages are virtually certain to contain varroa that left untreated -- or gassed poorly or late -- will destroy the efforts of those who do not currently have varroa, or who do and who treat their hives, and are in the neighbourhood. Moreover these less knowledgeable beekeepers might well decide to overwinter packages that have not been treated and fail repeatedly with expensive effects on the more prudent neighbours. Moreover, it is thought that the US package producers have had trouble in recent years supplying even their domestic market in a timely fashion, and that opening the border would inflate the price of bees to both US and Canadian beekeepers to the point where the price becomes about the same as we are paying for bees from Australia and New Zealand anyhow. What are the thoughts of those on the list? MAybe the British experience and comments from the US might be germaine. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 03:55:01 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: White objects at hive entrance > Hi, > > I did a quick check of my hives this weekend and noticed white > objects resembling corn kernals at the entrance of one hive. > > Any ideas of what these might be? If so, what strategy do I need to > know about before I go and diassemble the hive for closer > inspection? Chalkbrood mummies, Pollen cells emptied in one piece and ejected, or granulated honey chunks. Chalkbrood is hard and flat, longer then wide, and tending to taper a bit. The mummies are dried and hardened larvae. The others should be fairly obvious. There could be other answers -- (Maybe it is corn that a mouse took in). Use a magnifier or low power microscope to examine the pieces and the answer should be obvious. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:18:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Mite Resistant Stock > Apart from one or two > enlightened individuals all we are asked for are queens, there is > little or no mention of T-mite resistance, and that was the jist of > my first post. > I would have thought with the announcement of T-mite > resistant > stock that beekeepers would be clamouring for them. But quite > the reverse. > It still makes sense both econonmically and physically, > re-queen > with resistant stock, and save on the time effort and cost of > chemical treatments. In the UK where T-mite first came from, there > is no treatment necessary or available for T-mites! Is this not the > aim of bee keepers in North America? You have a good point here, David. I suspect that the reasons are that 1. Mite resistance is fairly new in the minds of beekeepers and the various claims *seem* contradictory and dubious as yet. 2. People suspect that even supposedly mite resistant queens will not be uniformly mite proof, and that treatment may be needed anyhow. Mite resistance is not something you can see like colour. Colour -- disguised as a claim of racial origin -- is still the number one selection criterion (as silly as it may seem). 3. Beekeepers tend to stick to suppliers they know unless given good reasons to change. They also evaluate prospective suppliers based on their personal experience with them and their confidence in their ability meet their claims. 4. People suspect that bees selected for mite resistance may have lost other qualities -- such as the ability to make huge crops. 5. Mite conscious buyers may be reluctant to order from a supplier that apparently has both mites in his environment, unless they have them both themselves. In that case, go figure, huh? Having said that, I have tried to get bees that are resistant to TM -- the only mite we have here so far. I also avoid buying from areas near or in known varroa finds -- including Southern Ontario. I did talk to a well known Buckfast breeder in Southern Ont. about exactly this -- mite resistance, and obtaining a large amount of Buckfast stock -- this spring, but concluded that I did not wish to purchase even cells from Ontario, since it is now reputedly widely varroa infested. More the pity. Since I had -- for various reasons -- to purchase many bees this spring in a complete turnaround from my previous practice -- I wound up buying non mite resistant stock from known safe sources as well as the limited amount I could get from safe sources. At any rate, I agree with you David. It makes sense to get stock that is even partly immune to the ravages of any disease or pest. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:09:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Re: Apistan timing At 12:43 PM 8/19/96 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Therefore, my present practice is to give up the fall flow in order to save >the hive. I try to put in the Apistan strips as soon as the summer supers are >removed. This has been my policy as well. The gentleman whom I consider to be my mentor taught me to give up the Fall flow (mostly goldenrod anyway) for the health of my bees thru winter; even before mites were a problem up here (Northern VT). Now with the extended treatment time (56 days) for apistan, it is even more important to insert strips by mid-August in order to maximize exposure before removing the strips when buttoning up the hives for winter. I installed my strips on 8-14 and will remove them the first or second weekend in October, depending on how our late-Fall temps are running. Generally, I don't want to be pulling hives apart later than that. When I remove the strips I will insert TM extender patties (plain grease/sugar patties till then). As a hindsight, I think that I dodged a huge bullet this past winter. Dumb luck must have been on my side. Through my own ignorance and lack of experience (no Bee-List to guide me then!) I mis-managed the treatment of my hives for mites. No spring '95 treatment and an incorrect apistan treatment in LATE Fall (October). I misunderstood the instructions and put only two strips in each two story hive instead of the recommended four. I did treat with TM extender patties. 4 of 5 hives made it through winter. The hive that I lost was two late season swarms that I combined in September. They refused to store syrup, even though I was feeding them right from the start. Then I let spring 96 go by without treating with apistan (even though I knew better by then!). I found varroa infestation this summer, although, thankfully, at very low levels. I have found several mite bodies on my grease patties when I opened my hives for re-queening yesterday. > >Incidentally, I am harvesting my summer flow now, and am getting up to 160 lbs >per colony (average=126 lbs) from new package colonies (single queen). Ever >since the mites killed off the feral bees, I have had record yields. Is this >the case elsewhere? I am very happy to hear of your record honey crops. That has not been the case at KirBee Apiaries. I harvested a measly 2.5 supers of honey for the entire spring/summer of 96. My hives are strong though, so here's hoping for a better 97. Regards, Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:39:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Canadian Border Opened to US Bees? AD>Here in Alberta, Canada, there is presently a move afoot to try to >obtain imports of US mainland bee stock via packages by attempting to >have the current border closure to US mainland bees set aside. Hi Allen, Is this the annual effort or a serious question of change? AD>One arguement against free access to cheap California packages and >queens is that is that some package buyers will revert to running the bees >one season, and gassing them in the fall, rather than wintering. >Many (all) currently successful beekeepers winter their bees. Since >running packages is more of a box keeping business than beekeeping, >they are expected to have a lower level of skill and knowledge (THis >was the case in the past). California packages are no longer cheep as most marginal bee breeders are no longer in business and all inputs to making package have increased in price. AD>The thought is that the packages are virtually certain to contain >varroa that left untreated -- or gassed poorly or late -- will >destroy the efforts of those who do not currently have varroa, or who >do and who treat their hives, and are in the neighbourhood. Moreover >these less knowledgeable beekeepers might well decide to overwinter >packages that have not been treated and fail repeatedly with >expensive effects on the more prudent neighbours. I am sure there is risk. If you only opened the boarder to queens for a year at a time you may be able to limit the risk if the buyers were aware and watchful. But there is always's risk. Having tab's in the queen cages and strips in the packages can give you some assurance of few or no mites depending on the bee breeder you purchase them from. I have not heard any horror stories about buyers of California packages getting their bees home and finding mites, but I am sure there could bee some around and I have just missed them. AD>Moreover, it is thought that the US package producers have had >trouble in recent years supplying even their domestic market in a >timely fashion, and that opening the border would inflate the price >of bees to both US and Canadian beekeepers to the point where the >price becomes about the same as we are paying for bees from >Australia and New Zealand anyhow. As far as I know these problems are weather related and with bee breeding sometimes it is better to get them late then get them with a queen that has not been fully mated. I do think with the high cost of transportation and the higher cost of queens and packages it would need some study to see if it's cost effective. Sure is a fast way to set up a lot of hives for that 200# crop of $1.00 honey. AD>What are the thoughts of those on the list? This is a political and economic problem for Canadian's and one that right or wrong they all will have to live with. I do think there is hope, and reports of mite free bees are starting to filter through the hysteria of the chemical fog. I suspect that in time (maybe a long time) for one reason or another beekeepers will find their bees can live with the mites. It may be that a level is reached that is tolerable to the hive, but then I don't believe the whole story is in the damage the varroa mite does anyway. If more and more beekeepers start to report that they can control mites with stinking oils then I believe the worst would have passed. It still amazes me that NO one has been able to introduced say 10,000 or 100,000 vampire mites into a healthy bee hive and record the loss of that hive. Also it appears that in SA the mites do reach a low level of infestation and have little or not effect on the bee hive. None of this should be interpolated as a effort on my part to convince anyone not to treat. Not to treat or even to change treatments can cost any beekeeper the loss of his bees and is a risk most should not take. I am concerned that beekeepers who are not having a problem are treating as in my mind this is a tread mill that I had hoped in this life I would never see beekeepers get on, considering the loss so many beekeepers have had from farmers doing the same thing to protect themselves from a perceived danger. It certainty must take a special beekeeper who is treating his bee's for mites to lobby a farmer not to make a preventative treatment to his crops if all else was equal and there only was a perceived danger that the farmers treatment could cause harm to the bees which always exists when using any chemical. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Let the honey flow!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:43:36 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Canadian Border Opened to US Bees? Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Allen Dick wrote: >> > One arguement against free access to cheap California packages and > queens is that is that some package buyers will revert to running the bees > one season, and gassing them in the fall, rather than wintering. > Many (all) currently successful beekeepers winter their bees. Since > running packages is more of a box keeping business than beekeeping, > they are expected to have a lower level of skill and knowledge (THis > was the case in the past). > > Moreover, it is thought that the US package producers have had > trouble in recent years supplying even their domestic market in a > timely fashion, and that opening the border would inflate the price > of bees to both US and Canadian beekeepers to the point where the > price becomes about the same as we are paying for bees from > Australia and New Zealand anyhow. > > What are the thoughts of those on the list? > Hi Allen and All, We in the US have been taxing the package producers abillity to meet our needs for early packages.It will become worse until we get Varroa under control by all of our beekeepers that are left. I was saddened when I read about gas and the bees. I know that has been done in the past.That is criminal, with so many people trying to save the bees and have people killing them with gas. Your right, they are not beekeepers.We that love the bees have a hard time with seeing our bees die with Varroa , when we could have treated in time and saved them. I was in a friends house in april of 95 talking about his lose of about 70 hives in the winter. He had tears in his eyes and was telling me that he was'nt a beekeeper. He has been one for 30 years.Yes he wants to make money, but he wants to do it with good beekeeping. I want our package people in the US to make money also. The market will determin the price of packages. It is going up now without Canada getting bees from the US.It is time for beekeepers to make money with there craft.It is very important to have bees for pollenation and I fear that the spring of 97 will show everyone the importance of honeybees the hard way.My own observation is that some big beekeepers are leaving Apistan in the hive all year long. Which will come back to bite all of us. We need more education to the public about our bees so fool wont killing. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:32:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Essential Oils for Mites The work of beekeeper and MSBA member Bob Noel of Cumberland, Maryland, was the subject of the cited newspaper article. He wrote a letter to the editor this year in either ABJ or Gleanings describing his experiments with the various essential oils. Sorry, but I don't recall which or when. He also gave a very good presentation to the Maryland State Beekeepers Assoc winter meeting in January this year. If anyone is interested to invite him to speak at your meeting, I can ask if he would be willing and I can put you in contact. Regards, David Morris, President Maryland State Beekeepers Assoc Laurel, MD -- End --