Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id AE49153300CA; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 23:44:25 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1802; Wed, 13 Nov 96 01:47:41 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9696; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 01:47:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 01:47:29 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9610B" To: "W. Allen Dick" X-UIDL: 477 Status: U ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:01:28 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping > I gather that Nick Wallingford is originally from a large family beekeeping > operation in West Australia. Do you know of any information on the internet > about migratory beekeeping there, Nick? I once worked in West Australia and > was stunned by the bloom there after it rains. Careful there, Stan! You'll have both the Kiwis and the Aussies up in arms if you start making claims like that! The 'Kiwi' you're thinking of is Robert Rice, who is from an Eastern Australia (Queensland) family, of Rice queenbreeding fame. He reads the list at least occasionally, so perhaps he'll add something... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 07:15:02 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Equinox - 13/10/96 (For UK readers) The Equinox programme which is scheduled to be shown at 7:00pm on Sunday 13/10/96 on Channel 4 is to be about the Africanized honey bee. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Snail : 78 Russell Road, Toddington, Bedfordshire. LU5 6QF. England Tel. : +44 (0)1525 875570 Fax. : +44 (0)1525 875570 ________________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 12:43:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robin Wells Subject: Re: Frame Grips again > I used to use the frame grip to get the first, outermost frame out. That > was when I had 10 frames/brood chamber. Now that I've switched to 9 I > sometimes don't even need a hive tool to remove brood frames. Or, at least > the first frame comes out much more readily. FWIW Speaking of which, what are the advantages or disadvantages of 9 frames in the brood chambers? I am using 9 frames in all my honey boxes, but 10 still in the brood chambers. I have thought of switching to 9 but caution has prevented me from doing so. I was wondering if the reduction in area for brood, or winter stores would endanger the colony? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:33:16 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Max.Watkins@sandoz.com Subject: Re: Immune Reactions to Stings Comments: To: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU After several years of bee stings, I recently suffered a sudden anaphylactic reaction to bee venom from just one sting - in the neck. I'm now undergoing de-sensitization therapy, being injected with increasing quantities of bee-venom every week and should be OK to work with bees again by the end of the year. I'll carry my adrenaline syringe everywhere 'though. I've spoken to many, many beekeepers and bee scientists all over the world who've had similar reactions and it seems more common than one would like to think - to me at least, this phenomenon appears to occur much more frequently than the suppositions and various hypothetical models would predict. Perhaps not all beekeepers report an adverse reaction to their doctor? It really must be good advice for all beekeepers to have adrenaline or epinephrine doses handy just in case. Does anyone on the list have or know of any actual data on the prevalence of reaction to bee venom amongst beekeepers? Max ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Immune Reactions to Stings Author: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU at INTERNET1 Date: 9/26/96 3:56 PM REGARDING Immune Reactions to Stings So much has recently been written on this topic that I'll follow up with a new post title. On Tues, 9/24, Dave Cawley reported on a large swelling of his forearm following a sting to his wrist, and wondered what could have caused such a reaction. On Wednesday, 9/25, Tom Elliott related a similar incident following a number of stings to his ankles. And finally, on Thursday, 9/26, Morten Petersen explained that reactions to stings fall in three groups, small local reactions (the majority of our cases, fortunately), large local reactions, and "allergic" reactions (systemic reactions). Actually, all of these reactions are technically known as allergic reactions, differing only in degree. What Dave and Tom experienced fall into the second of these categories, the large local reaction, and are very typical of this kind of response. Most of the time, our reactions are the small local kind, and with continued exposure (at least 100 stings/year) will diminish in intensity with time. Occasionally, the other two will be experienced, and should be treated with extreme respect. The large local reaction is a warning sign that your body may be developing a dangerous overreaction to bee venom. The systemic reaction is far more serious - it can kill you. For this reason, it is of utmost importance that *every* beekeeper get a prescription for Epipen (injectible epinephrine solution) and keep it at hand whenever you work your bees or especially when you allow someone of unknown sensitivity around your bees. The systemic reaction can knock a person unconscious within *three to five minutes*, can totally restrict ones airway (choking one to death), can depress respiration and pulse rate down to zero. In short, it is nothing to take lightly. It also has been reported here that certain common anti-inflammatory drugs (e.g., Ibuprofen) can diminish the ability of ones body to react normally to stings. Sometimes, a large local reaction may occur due to some totally unknown reason; a beekeeper who has gone about ones business for years suddenly develops it out of the blue. One must act prudently, of course, not giving an Epipen injection whenever a small local swelling occurs, but one will rather quickly known when a sting reaction is getting out of hand, and Epipen is the single treatment of choice for this situation. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 07:58:44 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: oil and sugar Ever open to an easier way to do things, I read with interest Richard Taylor's column in last month's Bee Culture telling how he visited a beekeeper who made up his grease patties by dumping granulated sugar into a bucket and then dumping in liquid vegetable oil. I hate mixing up shortening and sugar so I gave the liquid oil a try. It worked great BUT I went back into some hives a week after application and the grease patty was gone. I think the shortening gives the patty structural strength and staying power. The liquid oil patties are easily carried out by the bees. Has anyone else tried this technique. I love the way the liquid oil mixes effortlessly with the sugar and am considering filling a bucket 2/3's full of sugar and filling out the top with shortening and putting the bucket in a heat chamber at about 130 and seeing if it will melt and mix. Anything beats being elbow deep in grease patties. Bill Lord -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:47:44 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: More Mavrik pontification! Regarding the flurry over the MISuse of Mavrik, David Trickett posted: > > ... I don't see what everyone is so worried about > however... After all, there are hordes of lab techs out there > monitoring the purity of wax and honey... right? > That is PRECISELY! the concern. If/when one of the hordes of lab technicians blats to the media that they discovered traces of pesticide in what is perceived by the public to be a pure and wholesome food, we beekeepers will be hard pressed to give honey away, let alone sell it at an acceptable profit!!! The only way to prevent that dismal day is to use available products conscientiously, following the label directions and keeping potential contaminates out of our hives!!! When it comes to using Mavrik or leaving Apistan strips in year round, follow the advice of Bob Dole, "Just don't do it!" All it will take is one story out of Mississippi or Maryland about residues showing up in honey, and beekeepers EVERYWHERE will pay the price for the few beekeepers who are trying to cut corners by using pesticides produced for uses other than mite control in bee hives. We'll all pay for the "frugality" of a few. Please, for the sake of MY profits and the sake of our industry as a whole, play by the rules!!! Aaron Morris - thinking I'll hear it for this one.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:27:41 +0000 Reply-To: elevi@aristotle.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! Aaron, You'll hear it all right: RIGHT ON! I wish beekeepers would stop being so shortsighted on these issues and consider the long term effect of their shortsighted frugality. Ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:23:42 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! In-Reply-To: <961007.085011.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu>; from "Aaron Morris" at Oct 7, 96 8:47 am AMEN, Brother Fred According to Aaron Morris: > > Regarding the flurry over the MISuse of Mavrik, David Trickett posted: > > > > ... I don't see what everyone is so worried about > > however... After all, there are hordes of lab techs out there > > monitoring the purity of wax and honey... right? > > > > That is PRECISELY! the concern. If/when one of the hordes of lab > technicians blats to the media that they discovered traces of pesticide > in what is perceived by the public to be a pure and wholesome food, we > beekeepers will be hard pressed to give honey away, let alone sell it > at an acceptable profit!!! The only way to prevent that dismal day is > to use available products conscientiously, following the label directions > and keeping potential contaminates out of our hives!!! When it comes to > using Mavrik or leaving Apistan strips in year round, follow the advice > of Bob Dole, "Just don't do it!" All it will take is one story out of > Mississippi or Maryland about residues showing up in honey, and > beekeepers EVERYWHERE will pay the price for the few beekeepers who are > trying to cut corners by using pesticides produced for uses other than > mite control in bee hives. We'll all pay for the "frugality" of a few. > Please, for the sake of MY profits and the sake of our industry as a > whole, play by the rules!!! > > Aaron Morris - thinking I'll hear it for this one.... > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:36:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jim G. Shoemaker" Subject: Re: oil and sugar In-Reply-To: <199610071158.HAA04520@franklin.ces.state.nc.us> Hello Bill: I only have about 30 hives so don't need as many patties as some beekeepers but I use a portable electric drill with one of the paint mixing devices. Takes a little time but keeps you out of the mix. I plan to rip off a new batch today adding wintergreen as has been mentioned on the list lately. Jim Shoemaker Brookline, MO USA (near Springfield and Bass Pro Shop) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:59:44 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Re: beekeeping Comments: To: Darryl Rector In-Reply-To: <199610061144.GAA17965@hcn.cleaf.com> I am sending a copy of this message to the Bee-l discussion list in case there is any interest in your items. Otherwise try the bee journals. Tom Sanford On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Darryl Rector wrote: > Sir: > I read with fascination your article on the Africanized Honey Bee > which is posted on the Internet. My father-in-law is a full-time beekeeper > in Tennessee and obviously the spread of the species concerns him. I have > kept bees in my home state of Texas, but gave it up for various reasons, > among them the AHB. I am so grateful that someone is tracking their spread > and happy to hear that the people of Brazil are adapting to their presence. > I also wanted to ask you (because I don't know who else to query) > how I might get in touch with an advertising service for beekeepers on the > Internet. I need to sell a dehumidifier (commercial grade) and it's best use > is possibly in a honey-house. I would appreciate a reply to > drector@hcn.cleaf.com > > Thanks very much > > Darryl Rector > 1010 Sierra Vista > Granbury TX. 76048 > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:53:55 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: HTML, HELP! In-Reply-To: <961006135755_1479312916@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" at Oct 6, 96 01:57:56 pm There are many ways of constructing html code. As Allen points out, you can simply use a text editor --- but text editors don't check html code syntax, so pages often don't work. Okay, so here is a brief lesson in HTML and then a discussion of editors: HTML (hypertext markup language) is a rather clunky set of codes used to construct WWW pages. Houwever, the language is intuitive. HTML uses command codes called tags. For example, the letter B is the bold tag, the letter I is the italic tag, the letter P is the paragraph tag. Really long commands use words like LEFT, RIGHT, CENTER, TITLE, etc. Command codes are placed inside the less than and greater than brackets <>. For example, starts bold, stops bold. Again,

marks the start of a paragraph,

ends a paragraph. HTML does not recognize standard line returns, so hitting the enter or return key while composing your text has no effect on the final page format. Pictures are added by using the (image source) tag. You simply name the file containing the picture (which you can scan in, construct in a paint-brush program, grab from another page, get from a digital camera, or have your favorite photo-shop produce in a digital format. Let us say you have a nice bee picture. You either drew it in a paintbrush program or you scanned it. Regardless of the origin of the original picture, you must convert it to either a .gif or a .jpg file. Most of the newer paintbrush, photoshop, and other graphics packages can do this little trick. If yours doesn't, you can get a conversion utility from the web. If you name your picture file bee.gif, then the html tag that finds and places your picture on your web page will be: Just put this bit of text where you want the picture. One problem, it will end up on the left side of your page. So, add a bit more code Your picture will end up on the right side of your WWW page, centered on the next paragraph. So, how does one get those blue words or pictures that link to another file on your web page or take you to another web site (which may be on the other side of the globe)? Easy - works just like adding a picture. The command is A HREF, which stands for Attach or Link to Referenced location. If the link is to a file on your server, the address can be as simple as the name of a .htm (html on unix machines) file. No fancy conversions here, just add the .htm to the end of the name of your text file. For a site on another server, just add the entire address (as it would appear on your bookmark). Ok, let's say you wanted to link to a file that you placed on your server's unix box (computer),the file contains information about beekeeping and you want to use your bee picture as the clickable link. Let's name your bee information file bee.html. Therefore, would put a bee picture on your web page. Assuming you haven't changed any of the default settings for HTML colors, a blue box will appear around the bee. Click on the bee and you would go to you bee information page. A simple change Bee Information would add the words Bee Information to your link. Adding alignment commands will place the bee on the right, left, or center of the page. Similarly, if you want to link to another web page via your picture, you might use something like: Bee Alert Home Page to connect to my research page and kids corner. Notice that the only difference in the tag is the use of the complete URL address. Editors: Anyone who ever used the older word processors like the first versions of Word Star (remember the two key-stroke commands) or Word Perfect (F keys) will find HTML easy. Ok, as to editors for HTML - why get one? Mainly so you can easily preview your pages to see what they look like and if they work. Also, don't compose your entire page and then see if it works. Odds are, it won't and you will have a difficult time debugging the code. Write a few lines and preview your page. Don't worry if you don't have ready access to a server. I build web pages on airplanes using my notebook computer. View it on your PC or Mac, the only things that won't work are links to other web pages. What to use? As a University employee, I can't recommend a specific product. I can tell you that you don't have to spend lots of money - although some firms would love to sell you high priced editors. As Allen commented, the major word processors now have add-on HTML editors. Stand-alone HTML editors may work a bit better for checking that your coding syntax is correct. These don't have to be expensive. Commercial programs like Hot Dog work just fine and won't break your piggy bank For a novice, I'd skip frames, Java scripts, etc. All of these require more extensive coding - and quite frankly, most load slowly and won't run on lots of the older browsers and machines. Stick to standard HTML - things will work much better. A simple, clean, attractive, and fast loading page will get more visits than one with lots of features that takes forewer to download and may not work properly. One final thought. Keep your files small and watch the size of your image files. A 60k file takes a minute to download on a 14.4 modem. Depending on the size, resolution, and number of colors, the same picture can range from a few k to Mbs in size. Cheers Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana P.S. I am in the process of improving our pages - smaller files, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:01:02 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: using the reply button hi there fellow bee-l'ers please make sure you want to reply to the entire list or not when using the reply button. i see too many messages which are obviously direct replies to someone specific, but are sent to the list thanks to the reply button. thanks for your consideration. john in santa cruz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:02:23 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David J Trickett Subject: More Mavrik pontification! Thanks Aaron, I tried making essentially the same point in August (the dipping of cloth strips into Mavrick and use of the strips in place of Apistan is one form of the "home remedy" I referred to as being used by some of the large honey producers) but received but one reply (a lengthy one from the old drone, more or less downplaying the problem because it was being monitored and nobody was in a position to cheat!; you may remember it). My point was/is that we ought to be concerned about the wax pool (stream, whatever) and about honey contamination - for a variety of reasons (e.g., as listed in your post). I don't know why people weren't expressing concern then (maybe I should have stated exactly what was being done instead of simply referring to "home remedy." But I figured the commercial subscribers, at least, would know what I was talking about) but its nice to see some serious concern being voiced now. Sarcasm can certainly work wonders! > Regarding the flurry over the MISuse of Mavrik, David Trickett posted: > > > > ... I don't see what everyone is so worried about > > however... After all, there are hordes of lab techs out there > > monitoring the purity of wax and honey... right? > > > > That is PRECISELY! the concern. If/when one of the hordes of lab > technicians blats to the media that they discovered traces of pesticide > in what is perceived by the public to be a pure and wholesome food, we > beekeepers will be hard pressed to give honey away, let alone sell it > at an acceptable profit!!! The only way to prevent that dismal day is > to use available products conscientiously, following the label directions > and keeping potential contaminates out of our hives!!! When it comes to > using Mavrik or leaving Apistan strips in year round, follow the advice > of Bob Dole, "Just don't do it!" All it will take is one story out of > Mississippi or Maryland about residues showing up in honey, and > beekeepers EVERYWHERE will pay the price for the few beekeepers who are > trying to cut corners by using pesticides produced for uses other than > mite control in bee hives. We'll all pay for the "frugality" of a few. > Please, for the sake of MY profits and the sake of our industry as a > whole, play by the rules!!! > > Aaron Morris - thinking I'll hear it for this one.... > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 17:19:20 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: HTML, HELP! In-Reply-To: <199610071553.JAA27530@selway.umt.edu> In message <199610071553.JAA27530@selway.umt.edu>, Jerry J Bromenshenk writes >For a novice, I'd skip frames, Java scripts, etc. All of these require >more extensive coding - and quite frankly, most load slowly and won't run >on lots of the older browsers and machines. Stick to standard HTML - >things will work much better. A simple, clean, attractive, and fast >loading page will get more visits than one with lots of features that >takes forewer to download and may not work properly. > >One final thought. Keep your files small and watch the size of your image >files. A 60k file takes a minute to download on a 14.4 modem. Depending >on the size, resolution, and number of colors, the same picture can range >from a few k to Mbs in size. This is very good advice. I'd also suggest budding web authors watch the number of links they use. URL's often change and it can be very time consuming updating the links all the time and nothing is worse than links that don't. The links are one of the most useful features, but watch it. -- Dave Black Blacks Bee Gardens, Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:25:53 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Alaska Frost free inner covers etc. I had several beekeepers interested in My inner cover design so here it is. Take a standard inner cover with a 3/8" lip around the outside edge and a hole in the middle. This cover should have slot type opening in the front lip. Place the cover on a table so that the slot is in the up position. Take a 3/8" thick piece of wood about an inch wide . Place it across the width of the inner cover. Leave a 1" gap between the end of the stick and the outside lip on each side. Place the stick back from the front Approx 1" to 1 1/2"and permenetly fasten it. Next place a piece of 3/8" plywood over the entire cover,and seal the edges well so that no air can leak out from the edges. This creates a 3/8" layer of air between the part of the cover which is exposed to the inside of the hive and the part of the cover exposed to the out side of the hive.The bees will get in the openings and controll the airflow. How I use the frostfree inner cover here in Alaska. 1 I cut a 3"round hole in the upper surface offset from the bottom hole as a feeder hole so I can feed in february when they start raising brood. 2 Place the cover on top of the hive with a deep super on top of that filled with insulation and exterior cover on top. 3 Duct tape all joints to keep the wind from blowing through or wrap with insulation. Several of our beekeepers use styrofoam board insulation and build a hive size box with upper and lower entances. Long ago some one told me the bees would chew the styrofoam but I have not see that happen. 4 Reduce the lower entrance to a size slightly smaller than the upper entrance ,this lets the bees controll the air flow better. 5 When the bees start to raise brood again in february They need to raise the humidity of the hive for the brood.Put a feed can in the insulated super on top over the hole. Thin syrup, Mix more water than sugar. 6 I use a coffee can for a feeder and use a paper clip to poke a lot of holes in the plastic lid, be sure to tape completey around the lid seal to prevent air leaks or the feed will run out. Also be sure to fill the can well so it will build its vacuum quickly. Well there you are best luck Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 17:39:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "William Nelson@Aol.Com" Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! Aaron, Yes you will hear it for that one. Congratulations. I agree heartily. DO NOT USE PESTICIDES or HERBICIDES off label. It is costly and dangerous and can not be justified. Do it right or don't use it. Leave the experiments to scientists with the labs and controls to accurately describe their results. Bill Nelson Apiarist@AOL.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:32:07 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: HTML, HELP! In-Reply-To: from "Dave Black" at Oct 7, 96 05:19:20 pm Hello again. We are ready to re-vamp our page. We want to add a section for posting state and national meetings, workshops, etc. If you would like your association, club, etc. listed and the dates of upcoming events, please forward them to me. Along this line, the Montana Beekeepers Assn. will meet October 17,18, and 19th in Bozeman, MT. Things start at 1 on the 17th. Guest speakers include Steve Shepherd, Sherry Jennings, and myself - on bee issues; Jack Thomas and Dick Molenda on bee supplies and new products; Charlie Eustace on protecting equipment from bears, Chris Hahn and Tim Stewart on Boiler Operations. On Saturday from 10:00 a.m. until people tire, I and my students will conduct workshops on dissecting bees for tracheal mites, miticides, and some of the implications of our current research regarding timing of applications and "economic thresholds". Bring your own bees to cut for tracheal mites. For anyone wishing to attend, contact Les Wienke, 720 Knapp Street, Wolf Point, MT 59201. Tel: 406-653-1628. Finally, I am still looking for things to put on the Kids Corner. Surely some artist out there would like to contribute some drawings, puzzles, etc.? Thanks Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:33:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: More Mavrik pontification! AM>From: Aaron Morris >Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:47:44 EDT >Subject: More Mavrik pontification! AM>That is PRECISELY! the concern. If/when one of the hordes of lab >technicians blats to the media that they discovered traces of pesticide Hello Aaron, Now what bee technician worth his salt would damage the bee industry by selling his story for a few pieces of silver....don't answer that as there has been dozens of papers and almost daily lab work that indicates what pesticides and other chemicals are or have been found in honey that could be used by others to damage the image of Honey, but then maybe she ain't so pure anyway. Maybe we have been just lucky but honey continues to bee a very valuable commodity traded on a world market and much comes to the US for our own consumption from countries that are not as enlightened on chemical use as we think we are. Should it be that if we don't allow the same chemical to be used here in our bee hives we should not allow honey from areas that do to enter our markets? Some countries fear our bees and will not allow them to be imported, why should we not fear what may be in their honey if they can treat their bees with pesticides we can not use? Then Honey itself is 2nd only to Pollen as an indicator as to what dirt is in our environment and it all gets into the bees food chain. Lucky for us most of it is not thought to be in harmful amounts and much can not be detected after time and normal handling. That does not mean it is not there, it may be just not detectable and for sure most of us can not afford the cost of looking even on a cooperative level. >at an acceptable profit!!! The only way to prevent that dismal day is >to use available products conscientiously, following the label directions >and keeping potential contaminates out of our hives!!! It's true in a perfect world we would not see the need to use chemicals, but the fact is we don't live in a perfect world and the US bee industry is now "trapped on the chemical merry go around" just like those nasty farmers who treat their crops, they say to protect them from a perceived threat. Beekeepers treat their hives because someone has told and convinced them of a perceived threat and the US bee regulator scientists worked out a sweet deal with one chemical formulator for a permitted use of a regulated chemical in now what is a "one shot use product" leaving them with NO market competition and NO choice for the beekeeper. It matters not that there may be hundreds of other chemicals and natural substances that may be as good or better then the one approved, and don't expect anything to change even as a few have a closer look and find a promise of good alternatives. There is no money in marketing a natural or even a man made product to beekeepers that would cost them only a few pennies to treat each hive with a product they could buy at the local Walmart.. The chemical regulation business runs on money, and not on the best use of our own money or even the best materials one would want to use. In today's regulatory environment in the US we beekeepers are lucky to have any materials registered for our use at all because of the small amount of money in total we spend on such products which leaves little monetary incentive for any new or old product to run the gauntlet of US registration so it can be legally used by beekeepers. Lets be real, the system is broken and if a new use for an old or new product becomes a reality and/or a problem then you can expect that something will be done, maybe...Beekeepers must be careful of what they add to their hives approved or not. It is interesting that it was the same sweet people who also have sold us on the perceived threat with NO evidence in the case of the Vampire mite demonstrating that any level of infestation could be equated with the death of any one hive or if a beekeeper should treat at any particular level of infestation. Even today the few who are our regulators continue to search for the cause of death of our hives as beekeepers spend millions on the cure for what they are looking for, and we continue to lose hives. This year was the "year of the decline of the feral honeybee", if you believe what has been printed, will next year be "the year of decline of the hive bees"? >using Mavrik or leaving Apistan strips in year round, follow the advice >of Bob Dole, "Just don't do it!" I did not do it and all my hives died, or I did do it and all my hives died anyway, which ever fits. I guess it may be just as important as who you do it with as it is what you use for protection when you do it. But if we want to follow the example of our highest political leader it would be more appropriate to say "do it, just don't get caught", and "if you do get caught, lie about it." I do hope we have some leadership change at the highest level, but expect no change at this end of the food chain as far as beekeeping goes no matter who occupies the hot seat...beekeepers have not enough friends in congress on any side of the isle to expect any real help, unless you want to close down some federal bee program and then you find lots of friends. What ever you use to treat a hive if it does not kill the hive and all the pests you targeted then you have a sub lethal residue problem. NO claims have been allowed or made that the one permitted material when used as directed would give a 100% control of mites from the day one because when used as advertised it does not kill 100% of the bees or mites, so leaving the strips in is really academic problem and just fodder for contention between beekeepers, and bee regulators who are not that much better then beekeepers when it comes to removing the strips which is not a productive labor or use of time, but it could have been with a "return the used strip for a TWENTY-FIVE CENTS refund on the next one." This would have killed two birds with one refund, the strips would have been removed sooner or later from the hives and the strips would have been given a proper disposal, what ever that means, maybe recycled into new strips. This could have been made part of the law just as the use reporting was, but then who has bothered to ask how much is being used anyway? >Mississippi or Maryland about residues showing up in honey, and >beekeepers EVERYWHERE will pay the price for the few beekeepers who are >trying to cut corners by using pesticides produced for uses other than >mite control in bee hives. We'll all pay for the "frugality" of a few. >Please, for the sake of MY profits and the sake of our industry as a >whole, play by the rules!!! The truth is that what we do in the US in our bee yards is determined more by the politics of the day then the science of the day. There is no place in this world that residues of man made and natural chemicals can not be found at some level in honey. People are free to point that out to the public and have done so many times and I would expect to hear it all again and again in the future. NO honey is 100% free of things we would rather not find in it, but no evidence exists that these small residues are nothing more then interesting and are more reflections of our own environment today, yesterday, and tomorrow. The beekeeper in SA who covers his hives with tomato vines to control mites is adding the same ingredients to the hives environment as can be found in man made products just from a different source and for certain not registered or recommended for use to control mites in the US in a natural or artificial form. In the US we all accept the fact we can not use Carbolic Acid to drive our bees from the full supers of honey, yet how many would like to use Thymol to kill the mites would want to know that in the one product the chemical that effects the mites may be the same that caused the other to be banned. Because one chemical is permitted and small residues from that use is allowed is no great difference from all the chemicals that are not allowed and can be detected, we just don't live in a Zero tolerance world and never did, it's just today we have better instruments to measure things with and more people to complain on issues they/we really don't understand. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... When all candles bee out, all cats be gray. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: oil and sugar Bill, I use what is labeled as creamy vegetable shortening. It's basically partially hydrogenated oil. It pours when kept at room temp and blends easily. I've found that solid shortening is too hard when it's cold, and runny when it's hot ( it was 97F today central valley CA). This stuff can be blended and it retains it viscosity or stiffness no matter what the temp is. Liquids blend quicker and more consistent than the solid shortening IMHO Brian Tassey Alta Apiaries Kaykin@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:50:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Fumigation I've got a question about fumigating supers. I've got a space of about 10,000 cubic feet that I want to gas for waxmoth. It's pretty air tight and the choices so far are burning sulfur or Phostoxin. Anyone with Phostoxin experience? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:03:06 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Use of 9 Frames for Brood - was Frame Grips again In-Reply-To: <199610061645.MAA08239@bconnex.net> I use 9 frames for both brood and honey. This seems to work well. I found that using 10 frames made it too difficult to work the bees without rolling them up. However I am a rank novice, some of the experts comments should be interesting. Doug Henry, Lockport Manitoba Canada ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:26:02 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! In-Reply-To: <961007173948_204368790@emout04.mail.aol.com> On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, William Nelson@Aol.Com wrote: > Aaron, > > Yes you will hear it for that one. Congratulations. I agree heartily. DO > NOT USE PESTICIDES or HERBICIDES off label. It is costly and dangerous and > can not be justified. > > Do it right or don't use it. Leave the experiments to scientists with the > labs and controls to accurately describe their results. > Hello Bill & Aaron plus ALL beekeepers, I have been reading some of the posts on Mavrik and my blood pressure went up.We need to cut down the use of chemicals in the hive and for all of our wellbeing don't go out and experiment with all of beekeeping in the balance.We need no negative press about honey that is tainted with chemicals.Just read a little about wax and you will see how chemicals can stay in your hives and get stronger over time with the use of some chemicals.We are close to solving the Varroa mite problem with essential oils.We need a genetic fix for the long term and that will come about. Lets don't blow all of our futures with a bullet in the foot. Honey is very special in its natural form.Man needs to keep it that way. We will always have the 10% that will not listen and don't care. Thats why we have prisons. Don't follow the rules and we will have a problem.That should not be hard to understand. I hope everyone takes this as something that is serious and could cost all of us our money and maybe our jobs. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:28:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: What does everyone do for labels? Along with many others I use my color printer for my personalized labels. Togive them a shine and stretch their useful life I use two inch wide Scotch tape over 1-3/4 in wide labels leaving a 1/8 sticky edge and also cut the length of the tape a little longer than the labels.This is quick fast and good looking. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:34:37 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Philip Hinton Subject: Frame grips and number of frames Robin Wells wrote >> I used to use the frame grip to get the first, outermost frame out. That >> was when I had 10 frames/brood chamber. Now that I've switched to 9 I >> sometimes don't even need a hive tool to remove brood frames. Or, at least >> the first frame comes out much more readily. FWIW >Speaking of which, what are the advantages or disadvantages of 9 frames in >the brood chambers? and Doug Henry wrote >I use 9 frames for both brood and honey. This seems to work well. I found >that using 10 frames made it too difficult to work the bees without >rolling them up. However I am a rank novice, some of the experts comments >should be interesting. First: frame grips. My first sight of these was as community beekeeper on Gt Barrier Is (near Auckland, NZ), a blessed haven with no AFB (although some idiot down-island did bring infected bees over once - fortunately it was stamped out quickly). A visiting beekeeper had the grips with him so I tried them out (yes, being aware of disease possibilities!). Brilliant!! They enabled me to use one hand for manipulating the frame, made lifting each frame out easier (and gave better leverage: this didn't break frames worth keeping), meant I didn't get fingers in the top of the comb while manipulating frames one-handed, etc. While at university I only have two hives, to keep my hand in, but I'd buy a grip whenever I have more hives. Let's face it: it's a personal choice. Perhaps if I was brave enough not to wear gloves, frame grips would be less useful. The community's bees needed to be fairly aggressive so I never went gloveless (gentler strains just died out - believe me, I introduced a few new mated queens but ended up having to raise my own). Nine frames: in 12 years, none of my queens have ever laid in the outside two frames. By only having 9 frames in the brood chamber, she only gets 7 to lay in. I'd favour putting in 11 but each frame needs to be narrower, which makes them less compatible with self-spacing 10-frame honey supers. Besides, 9 frames must be manually spaced. If brood boxes need shifting, 9 frames tend to rattle around, potentially killing the queen. If frames are not forced in between others, "rolling" of bees shouldn't be a problem (ie put the outermost frame back last after the others have been pushed together). If bees are in the way, smoke 'em down. Again, this is personal opinion and no doubt others swear by 9-frame brood chambers... For my supers, I began using Manley frames (the frames that hold 10 sections). I simply drill appropriate holes for 4 wires, shave half a beespace off either side of the topbar to allow vertical bee travel, and treat them like a normal frame. Seven leave a space for one Hoffman frame, or extra work space. With new foundation, it is wise to interleave them with capped frames (Hoffman or Manley) until the comb is built, as burr comb bridges or uneven faces may be a problem. Only put them on during a strong honey flow so the bees build them out quickly. I've done this for years, and you get a *lot* of honey for each sheet of foundation!! Heavy foundation is best (I'm going to make a foundation mould one of thse days so I can have really thick foundation using reclaimed wax). This is a useful method for extraction systems other than centrifuge, also. I've not been scientific about it, but it seems (from memory) that queens have not laid in them - cells too deep? Palmerston North, New Zealand. (Opinions given not necessarily those of Massey University) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 03:16:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Blohm Subject: Re: OILS For information on the use of essential oils in grease patties etc. check out this web site..... http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm Rich Blohm, Long Island ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:56:13 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Laidlaw Subject: Re: Immune Reactions to Stings >After several years of bee stings, I recently suffered a sudden anaphylactic >reaction to bee venom from just one sting - in the neck. I'm now undergoing >de-sensitization therapy, being injected with increasing quantities of >bee-venom >every week and should be OK to work with bees again by the end of the year. >I'll carry my adrenaline syringe everywhere 'though. > >I've spoken to many, many beekeepers and bee scientists all over the world >who've had similar reactions and it seems more common than one would like to >think - to me at least, this phenomenon appears to occur much more frequently >than the suppositions and various hypothetical models would predict. > > >Perhaps not all beekeepers report an adverse reaction to their doctor? > >It really must be good advice for all beekeepers to have adrenaline or >epinephrine doses handy just in case. > >Does anyone on the list have or know of any actual data on the prevalence of >reaction to bee venom amongst beekeepers? >______________________________ Reply Separator >_________________________________ > REGARDING Immune Reactions to Stings > >So much has recently been written on this topic that I'll follow up with a new >post title. On Tues, 9/24, Dave Cawley reported on a large swelling of his >forearm following a sting to his wrist, and wondered what could have caused snip >suddenly develops it out of the blue. One must act prudently, of course, not >giving an Epipen injection whenever a small local swelling occurs, but one >will rather quickly known when a sting reaction is getting out of hand, and >Epipen is the single treatment of choice for this situation. > >Ted Fischer -------------------------- I'm only a beginning beekeeper and still have some local swellings after bee stings, but about two months ago a skilful bee managed to reach into the nerve above the end joint on my left ring finger. As a result I have lost a lot of sensation up that side of my finger tip, and it shows no sign of improving. It doesn't prevent me doing things, but it's a bit sensitive. Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks for all the tips. There must be hundreds of years of experience coming through this list! Bruce Laidlaw ------------------------------------------------- \ Bruce Laidlaw (\ / \ Head Teacher {|||8- / \ Foundation Studies (/ / \ East Sydney College of TAFE / \ (Technical & Further Education) / \ Darlinghurst / \ New South Wales / \ Australia 2010 / \ +61-2-9569-2854 (h) 9339-8648 (w) / \ http://pip.com.au/~abestuds/ / ================================================ (\ /) {|||8- Beekeeper -8|||} (/ \) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:13:36 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Introducing a Queen In-Reply-To: In article , Allen Dick writes >I've lost enough behind the seat in my pickup (and other >impenatrable (sic?) places) that I've decided that a clear plastic >bag into which both the cage and my hands can go is a better answer. Allen (and all) I saw this method on a BIBBA video about Queen raising and I think it deserves more explaination than you have given it above, so with your permission .... 1. Put the cage containing the queen and attendants inside a plastic bag. 2. Put your hand inside the bag and gather the open end together around your wrist so that no bees can escape (an elastic band or the elasticated cuff of a gauntlet can help here). 3. Use the hand inside the bag to flip open the cage. 4. Flip all of the bees out of the cage. 5. The queen isn't as fond of the light as the workers so she will probably jump back into the cage. If she doesn't, you can pick her off the inside of the bag without any fear of losing her. 6. The attendants are disposable. The idea is to intoduce the queen so that she solicits food from the new colony and her pheremones are passed around the colony. If you introduce the attendants as well, they will do the soliciting (and will probably be recognised as intruders and killed) and the queens pheremones will not be passed around the colony. Consequently, the colony may believe that it is queenless and take appropriate action. This is a great method of separating the queen from the attendants she arrives with through the post with. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Bedfordshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:29:44 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: janet montgomery Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! If illegal residues of a registered pesticide are found in a raw agricultural commody by the FDA, its label can be withdrawn. That would mean that we would no longer have Apistan strips to save us from mites, a situation that would be a disaster. The monitored item would be the technical ingredient, not the commercial product , so if the residues are found from the improper use of Apistan strips OR from the misuse of Mavrik it doesn"t matter as there is still illegal residues. By the way , there are laws in effect that levy fines from $1000-5000 on an individual for using an Agricultural product inconsistant with its labelling as is stated on the Mavrik label .. So using Mavrik in this way is not a good idea on many fronts. DAN VEILLEUX COLUMBUS, OHIO At 01:02 PM 10/7/96 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks Aaron, > >I tried making essentially the same point in August (the dipping of cloth >strips into Mavrick and use of the strips in place of Apistan is one form >of the "home remedy" I referred to as being used by some of the large >honey producers) but received but one reply (a lengthy one from the old >drone, more or less downplaying the problem because it was being monitored >and nobody was in a position to cheat!; you may remember it). My point >was/is that we ought to be concerned about the wax pool (stream, whatever) >and about honey contamination - for a variety of reasons (e.g., as listed >in your post). I don't know why people weren't expressing concern then >(maybe I should have stated exactly what was being done instead of simply >referring to "home remedy." But I figured the commercial subscribers, at >least, would know what I was talking about) but its nice to see some >serious concern being voiced now. Sarcasm can certainly work wonders! > >> Regarding the flurry over the MISuse of Mavrik, David Trickett posted: >> > >> > ... I don't see what everyone is so worried about >> > however... After all, there are hordes of lab techs out there >> > monitoring the purity of wax and honey... right? >> > >> >> That is PRECISELY! the concern. If/when one of the hordes of lab >> technicians blats to the media that they discovered traces of pesticide >> in what is perceived by the public to be a pure and wholesome food, we >> beekeepers will be hard pressed to give honey away, let alone sell it >> at an acceptable profit!!! The only way to prevent that dismal day is >> to use available products conscientiously, following the label directions >> and keeping potential contaminates out of our hives!!! When it comes to >> using Mavrik or leaving Apistan strips in year round, follow the advice >> of Bob Dole, "Just don't do it!" All it will take is one story out of >> Mississippi or Maryland about residues showing up in honey, and >> beekeepers EVERYWHERE will pay the price for the few beekeepers who are >> trying to cut corners by using pesticides produced for uses other than >> mite control in bee hives. We'll all pay for the "frugality" of a few. >> Please, for the sake of MY profits and the sake of our industry as a >> whole, play by the rules!!! >> >> Aaron Morris - thinking I'll hear it for this one.... >> > > Janet Montgomery 104 Fallis Road Columbus, Ohio 43214-3724 Home: (614) 784-8334 FAX: (614) 268-3107 E-mail: montgomery.1@osu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:07:29 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Honey Show To Doug Henry" - In response to your query about filtering honey for the Manitoba Honey show, try warming it until it feels thin when you drag a wooden spoon through it and then strain it through a fine, nylon paint strainer. ( Actually I use a magenta, nylon tutu worn by my daughter in a ballent recital 12 years ago. Such exotic equipment has won me the blue ribbon eight years about of twelve!). Strain it several times if you'd like but nylon is the trick....no lint. Good luck. Faith Andrews Bedford (FaithAB@aol.com) Beekeeper, Ivy VA and Tampa FL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:07:32 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: What does everyone do for labels? Guy- Regarding your thinking about labels, I had a calligrapher do a beautiful design for me, took it to a printer, had a master piece of camera-ready copy done with three labels across and ten down. Now, I just take that to my printer and he turns me out a box of labels once a year. He used green ink and they look just great. You could design your own, or get someone to do it for you, on an Apple Mac. Then you can just buy some Avery labels and send them through a lazer printer. Your computer "guru" might even have some "clip art" with a bee or a hive you could include on your label. Mine has a stylized tree on it. Faith Andrews Bedford Ivy, VA and Tampa FL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: RE : watch the x-files on fox tonight Cecile asks if various honey taste sweeter. We had a "honey" tasting at one our beekeeping assoc. meetings and were astounded at the various levels of "sweet" they all had. Laboratory tests might have shown that the sugar level or sweetness level was all the same but our tastebuds said differently. Try this at your next meeting, it's as much fun as a wine tasting and you can drive home afterwards safely. Faith Andrews Bedford Ivy, VA and Tampa FL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:02:54 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Migratory Beekeeping-Australian Style Dear BEE_LINERS and Nick, A brief look at migratory beekeeping OZZIE (Australian) style. A typical beekeeping outfit would own between 500-1500 hives with most around the 1000 mark. If you like driving and are willing to shift your bees 5 to 6 times per year you can almost get honey all year round. The best return I've heard of lately was 650 x 300kg drums from 800 hives in one year returning a bulk honey price of AUD$1.75-$1.80/kg. Typically a beekeeper moves from pollen to honey and back to pollen and so on. Many Australian honey flows can lack good quality pollen and so tend to wear the bees out (protein wise) although this is not always the case. A typical cycle in the southern half of the state of Queensland would be (and those who have maps of Australia) -- A spring build on the Eastern Downs or Coastal Ranges (for example find Toowoomba or Warwick on your map). For those above the equator remember that September is the start of spring. The hives are then moved to the western side of the Great Dividing range onto various Eucalypts such as Ironbark of one species or another. Some beekeepers move to the eastern face of the range for costal species. This move would put hives in state owned forests around places like Millmerran, Goonndiwindi, Chinchilla west of the range or Nanango, Murgon, Kilcoy to the east. The beekeepers will continue to move their hives around (in this case) the Southeast corner of Queensland until the late autumn at which time many move their bees west to the channel country. The channel country is area of Australia with a very low rain fall, perhaps only 10 inches a year. This area is sometimes naturally irrigated from the far north. The monsoonal rains that fall on the North (Top) of Australia flow down through the centre of Australia and often cause flooding of the central plains (channel country). This channel country is world famous (in Australia) for huge crops of Yapunyah honey. The Yapunyah is a short eucalypt that produces large crops of a very light honey having a natural moisture content of around 15% (try and wipe that off your knife). It is a truly delicious honey. The channel country starts about 1000 km from the coast. It is mostly sheep of beef country with low stocking capacity and very large properties. One of the largest in this region is 3,500 sq miles in area. On your map look for the place names of Thargomindah, Eromanga or Quilpie. The bees stay in the channel country until the spring and are moved back to the coast region or eastern downs. During the summer temperature in the channel country can reach as high as 45 degrees centigrade (in the shade) and so the bees need to be moved away. Remember the above relates to one region of Australia. Similar activities are carried out throughout Australia but the target species may be different. While a large percentage of the Australian honey crop is from eucalypts the country produces large crops of clover and other ground flower. Robert Rice Apiculture Service Manager (South Island) Ministry of Agriculture e-mail ricer@lincoln.mqm.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:14:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garrett Dodds Subject: Carniolans Hi Greg, I tried your personal email address and it didn't work, so I'm posting it on the the BeeL. Hopefully this information will be of some use to a lot of you. You should be able to see a color difference between the two different races. The Italians should be yellow and the Carniolans should be black. The Carniolans probably have some yellow workers because of miss matings, but most of them should be pretty black. You should be able to see a difference when the bees start preparing for winter. The Carniolans stop their brood rearing earlier than the Italians. There should be a difference in the spring like you said, since carniolans over winter better than most Italians. I don't know how all uses NWC's, but they should do fairly well in the VA/NC/TN area. I have heard from Dean Breaux from Hybrid-Bees that the Carniolans don't do to well in his area in Florida, compared to the Starline Italians that he uses. By all means treat your bees for both mites. The NWC's keep the mite levels down to a minimal level comparable to the Buckfast, but they are not resistant to tracheal mites just tolerant of them. There is also a degree of variability in the stock, some have high mite levels while most have low levels. Here at Ohio State we only treat for tracheal mite with grease patties and have had very low loses the last couple of years despite the severe winters. We are also looking at hygienic behavior as a possible mechanism for lowering the levels of vorroa mites in the hive. This project is in cooperation with Marla Spivik at Minnesota. She has been able to show that colonies bred for a high degree of hygienic behavior remove more vorroa mites from the cells of capped pupae. But wether this significant enough to drastically drop the vorroa mite population in the hive is unknown right now. Because the hygienic behavior has proven to help lower brood diseases in the hive, we are now starting to increase the degree of this trait in the NWC's. This will be a slow process (three years maybe), because the genes responsible for the hygienic behavior is only found in 10% of the colonies in a non-selected population it makes since to select a little heavier on this trait and increase it over time than to just select for one trait. This will help maintain the integrity of the NWC population of gentleness and honey production and increase hygienic behavior along side. I have tried Italians and Buckfast along side of the NWC's. The Italians scare me too much, they brood up and form large colonies early and will starve themselves if the are not monitored. The Buckfast that is available in this country is so crossed bred with the Italians that their is not much difference in the two. The Buckfast has been maintained be Natural Matings in a predominantly Italian area in Texas for years, no way to control the matings of the queens. Garrett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:08:44 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: To use or not to use Frame Grips. A simple question and what a classic example of variety in beekeepers' opinions. Dozens of replies ranging from "excellent, wouldn't be without them" to "useless, waste of money". There must be a middle road. Very bewildering for a beginner. Whose advice should he take? If one uses a full complement of combs in the brood chamber it usually results in a tight fit. It is important not to upset the bees at the start of an inspection. I have seen beekeepers, fully armoured against stings, reduce a calm stock to fury in the struggle to free that first comb. I find a frame grip enables it to be drawn out slowly to avoid rolling the bees whilst using the other hand for the smoker if needed. Once the comb is out the grip is of no further use as a comb cannot be properly checked held in one hand. I have neighbours and I always work bare handed (but always with a veil) so I like to keep my bees happy. Gentle removal of that first comb is important. <<<< Frame grips free up your hand to be able to to two things at once while not having to set the frame on the ground or a hive lid. Frame grips make it quicker for me to look at my hives. I use the hive tool to loosen the frames. With a frame grip in each hand I can go through a hive and look at each frame and be out of the hive in less than two minutes and not make the bees mad.>>>>>> Re the above. May I ask what is the purpose of such an "inspection" and how thorough was the "look"? As I see it, a routine inspection should include a check of the extent and state of the brood;-- eggs, open larvae and capped brood ratio, a hunt for queen cells and a scan of the brood for sick larvae, knowing that AFB and EFB can arrive at any time. Hardly possible one handed and in two minutes. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:40:06 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Follower boards &/orTechnique >? If one uses a full complement of combs in the brood chamber it > usually results in a tight fit. It is important not to upset the > bees at the start of an inspection. I have seen beekeepers, fully > armoured against stings, reduce a calm stock to fury in the struggle > to free that first comb. I find a frame grip enables it to be drawn > out slowly to avoid rolling the bees whilst using the other hand for > the smoker if needed. Once the comb is out the grip is of no further > use as a comb cannot be properly checked held in one hand. I have > neighbours and I always work bare handed (but always with a veil) so > I like to keep my bees happy. Gentle removal of that first comb is > important. In that case, most professionals use other solutions than a frame grip. I'm not knocking frame grips, but if the frames are that hard to remove, then there is likely another problem: 1. the frames are simply too wide for the box or 2. The frames, and/or the box need scraping badly. In the first case, replacing the outside frame on one side with a follower board (which is thinner and allows some slack space) might be a solution. Examine the frames and see if the end bars are over 1-3/8 inches wide. If so, some wider frames custom made for supers may have found their way into a brood chamber. The wider spacing is not a serious problem in itself (many pros use the wider 9 frame spacing), but it will explain why the frames are so crowded. Or perhaps they are just built up with wax and propolis. See the next point. In the second case, self spacing frames should have been crowded together at the end of each visit -- prying against the box wall with your hive tool fairly strongly -- so that the bees will not fill the gaps between the end bars with propolis and wax, making the frames progressively harder and harder to remove. If this has already happened, it is necessary to try crowding them on a warm day (the buildup may still be soft and ooze out, allowing the frames to move closer together), and if that doesn't work, it may be time to scrape each frame and the inside of the box. Re the above. May I ask what is the purpose of such an "inspection" and how thorough was the "look"? As I see it, a routine inspection should include a check of the extent and state of the brood;-- eggs, open larvae and capped brood ratio, a hunt for queen cells and a scan of the brood for sick larvae, knowing that AFB and EFB can arrive at any time. Hardly possible one handed and in two minutes. Small colonies in one box are routinely inspected in 2 minutes -- or less -- by knowledgeable commercial operators. Strong two storey plus colonies take (much) longer. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:36:38 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Richard Kurtz - Long Island, NY, USA" Subject: help for high school research project I am a high school teacher on Long Island, NY and a beekeeper. I have a student who is also interested in bees. He is doing a project on wax moth, their development and testing to see if freezing wax with the various stages of wax moth egg and larvae are killed by the cold. He wants to ask, for example, how long it takes to kill various stages and what temperatures are most effective. He needs suggestions on how to rear the larva, he needs to set up a colony of wax moth so he can have a continuous supply of the insect. Does anyone know of any papers on the topic or of any people doing work in this area. Thanks Richard (teacher) You can respond to me or to my student Trevor -- Daytrippr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:27:46 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Max.Watkins@sandoz.com Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! Comments: To: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Dear Andy, You were right to state at the end, that your opinions expressed may not be facts. You refer to a "sweet deal" between Sandoz and the EPA; both organisations would take serious afront to this accusation as it is clearly untrue. Apistan is the only product registered for use against Varroa in the USA currently, solely because Sandoz/Zoecon was and remains the only body willing to put up the money to do years of serious research into Varroa control and to produce a high quality treatment. If the toxicological, pharmaceutical, residue and efficacy data were not of a high standard, Apistan would not have been accepted for registration in the USA; it's precisely because Sandoz has generated this data that Apistan is registered as a Veterinary Drug in most countries around the world. In short, there was no "deal" between Sandoz/Zoecon and the EPA; what the EPA did do was to respond to pressure from beekeeping groups throughout the USA who asked for help to combat a menace which would otherwise have wiped out their colonies, their hobby, and more importantly in many cases, their entire livlihood. Don't blame one company for trying to help - and yes of course making some money, eventually - that's what business is all about. (Shouldn't need to tell Americans that!). However, just because one product is registered it does not prevent someone else from generating similar data and getting another 2, 3, or however many products registered and on the open market. But on the other hand, you cannot expect a national regulatory body to accept poor data on safety, residue and other aspects, especially where the end product, following treatment, is a food for human consumption. In Europe, other products are often used on a small scale by hobbyists - such as formic acid, lactic acid etc; Sandoz actually recommends the use of such alternatives to rotate with Apistan where it is legal and practical to do so. No one product is a panacea for all ills - none are perfect but you have to make a rational choice given the experience with and performance of such products, together with the legality of use. Noone is being forced to use Apistan. It's there as a useful tool if you want to use it but everyone is free to use whatever they want - or not. It depends on what results you want. Max ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: More Mavrik pontification! Author: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU at INTERNET1 Date: 10/8/96 2:51 AM AM>From: Aaron Morris >Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:47:44 EDT >Subject: More Mavrik pontification! AM>That is PRECISELY! the concern. If/when one of the hordes of lab >technicians blats to the media that they discovered traces of pesticide Hello Aaron, Now what bee technician worth his salt would damage the bee industry by selling his story for a few pieces of silver....don't answer that as there has been dozens of papers and almost daily lab work that indicates what pesticides and other chemicals are or have been found in honey that could be used by others to damage the image of Honey, but then maybe she ain't so pure anyway. Maybe we have been just lucky but honey continues to bee a very valuable commodity traded on a world market and much comes to the US for our own consumption from countries that are not as enlightened on chemical use as we think we are. Should it be that if we don't allow the same chemical to be used here in our bee hives we should not allow honey from areas that do to enter our markets? Some countries fear our bees and will not allow them to be imported, why should we not fear what may be in their honey if they can treat their bees with pesticides we can not use? Then Honey itself is 2nd only to Pollen as an indicator as to what dirt is in our environment and it all gets into the bees food chain. Lucky for us most of it is not thought to be in harmful amounts and much can not be detected after time and normal handling. That does not mean it is not there, it may be just not detectable and for sure most of us can not afford the cost of looking even on a cooperative level. >at an acceptable profit!!! The only way to prevent that dismal day is >to use available products conscientiously, following the label directions >and keeping potential contaminates out of our hives!!! It's true in a perfect world we would not see the need to use chemicals, but the fact is we don't live in a perfect world and the US bee industry is now "trapped on the chemical merry go around" just like those nasty farmers who treat their crops, they say to protect them from a perceived threat. Beekeepers treat their hives because someone has told and convinced them of a perceived threat and the US bee regulator scientists worked out a sweet deal with one chemical formulator for a permitted use of a regulated chemical in now what is a "one shot use product" leaving them with NO market competition and NO choice for the beekeeper. It matters not that there may be hundreds of other chemicals and natural substances that may be as good or better then the one approved, and don't expect anything to change even as a few have a closer look and find a promise of good alternatives. There is no money in marketing a natural or even a man made product to beekeepers that would cost them only a few pennies to treat each hive with a product they could buy at the local Walmart.. The chemical regulation business runs on money, and not on the best use of our own money or even the best materials one would want to use. In today's regulatory environment in the US we beekeepers are lucky to have any materials registered for our use at all because of the small amount of money in total we spend on such products which leaves little monetary incentive for any new or old product to run the gauntlet of US registration so it can be legally used by beekeepers. Lets be real, the system is broken and if a new use for an old or new product becomes a reality and/or a problem then you can expect that something will be done, maybe...Beekeepers must be careful of what they add to their hives approved or not. It is interesting that it was the same sweet people who also have sold us on the perceived threat with NO evidence in the case of the Vampire mite demonstrating that any level of infestation could be equated with the death of any one hive or if a beekeeper should treat at any particular level of infestation. Even today the few who are our regulators continue to search for the cause of death of our hives as beekeepers spend millions on the cure for what they are looking for, and we continue to lose hives. This year was the "year of the decline of the feral honeybee", if you believe what has been printed, will next year be "the year of decline of the hive bees"? >using Mavrik or leaving Apistan strips in year round, follow the advice >of Bob Dole, "Just don't do it!" I did not do it and all my hives died, or I did do it and all my hives died anyway, which ever fits. I guess it may be just as important as who you do it with as it is what you use for protection when you do it. But if we want to follow the example of our highest political leader it would be more appropriate to say "do it, just don't get caught", and "if you do get caught, lie about it." I do hope we have some leadership change at the highest level, but expect no change at this end of the food chain as far as beekeeping goes no matter who occupies the hot seat...beekeepers have not enough friends in congress on any side of the isle to expect any real help, unless you want to close down some federal bee program and then you find lots of friends. What ever you use to treat a hive if it does not kill the hive and all the pests you targeted then you have a sub lethal residue problem. NO claims have been allowed or made that the one permitted material when used as directed would give a 100% control of mites from the day one because when used as advertised it does not kill 100% of the bees or mites, so leaving the strips in is really academic problem and just fodder for contention between beekeepers, and bee regulators who are not that much better then beekeepers when it comes to removing the strips which is not a productive labor or use of time, but it could have been with a "return the used strip for a TWENTY-FIVE CENTS refund on the next one." This would have killed two birds with one refund, the strips would have been removed sooner or later from the hives and the strips would have been given a proper disposal, what ever that means, maybe recycled into new strips. This could have been made part of the law just as the use reporting was, but then who has bothered to ask how much is being used anyway? >Mississippi or Maryland about residues showing up in honey, and >beekeepers EVERYWHERE will pay the price for the few beekeepers who are >trying to cut corners by using pesticides produced for uses other than >mite control in bee hives. We'll all pay for the "frugality" of a few. >Please, for the sake of MY profits and the sake of our industry as a >whole, play by the rules!!! The truth is that what we do in the US in our bee yards is determined more by the politics of the day then the science of the day. There is no place in this world that residues of man made and natural chemicals can not be found at some level in honey. People are free to point that out to the public and have done so many times and I would expect to hear it all again and again in the future. NO honey is 100% free of things we would rather not find in it, but no evidence exists that these small residues are nothing more then interesting and are more reflections of our own environment today, yesterday, and tomorrow. The beekeeper in SA who covers his hives with tomato vines to control mites is adding the same ingredients to the hives environment as can be found in man made products just from a different source and for certain not registered or recommended for use to control mites in the US in a natural or artificial form. In the US we all accept the fact we can not use Carbolic Acid to drive our bees from the full supers of honey, yet how many would like to use Thymol to kill the mites would want to know that in the one product the chemical that effects the mites may be the same that caused the other to be banned. Because one chemical is permitted and small residues from that use is allowed is no great difference from all the chemicals that are not allowed and can be detected, we just don't live in a Zero tolerance world and never did, it's just today we have better instruments to measure things with and more people to complain on issues they/we really don't understand. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... When all candles bee out, all cats be gray. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:42:21 CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Wood Subject: Re: OILS I have a bit of a question about the text at this site: Specifically, the authors mention that wintergreen, spearmint, and peppermint oils have proven successful, that spearmint patties were propolized, but not wintergreen, teatree, or patchouli oils. The question has a small interest to me because I have a large bottle of peppermint oil left over from a prior experiment in controlling varroa (I didn't run a no-apistan control). It seemed to work quite well. Does this mean that no research was done with peppermint oil? I assume we could just use it in the same amount as wintergreen or spearmint oil. Anyone have any information about it? Curiously, I didn't hear much from folks since the original posting here. Does this mean that everyone is quietly going out and buying the oils and seeing what will happen? Or is this a new idea with promising preliminary results? Just curious- Phil Wood wood@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu > > Brian R Tucker wrote: > > > > Could someone please repost the use of Essential Oils for the use of mite > > controll. That is how much in sugar water or if used in grease patties how > > much in there. And what type of oil is best (Spearmint,Wintergreen ect..) > > Thanks > > The info is at this site: > http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm > > -Barry > > -- > Barry Birkey > West Chicago, Illinois USA > bbirkey@interaccess.com > http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:21:04 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! In-Reply-To: <961007174242340@beenet.com> from "Andy Nachbaur" at Oct 7, 96 11:33:00 pm >Then Honey itself is 2nd only to Pollen as an indicator as to what is dirt in our environment amd it all gets into the bees food chain. > Sorry, but the ranking part of this statement is not correct. We have spent 22 years looking at "dirt" in our environment with honey bees. This is a service that bees can provide. Those of you in the U.S. may have seen a newspaper article that appeared in the Sunday papers a week ago - Army Enlist Bees to Monitor Chemicals (or some version of that title). Bees have been used for this purpose in England, Europe, and the U.S. In Canada, bees were pressed into service prospecting for precious metals. The good news is that little of the environmental junk gets into honey! But, that only applies to sources outside the hive. Chemicals used inside the hive can go right into the honey or wax - especially those in liquid or volatile forms. Apistan is designed to control release - squirting cotton balls or dunking cardboard is not the same. Many of the studies using bees as monitors have only looked at a few chemicals or at one hive component (honey, wax, pollen). We have looked at almost all forms and kinds of chemicals, by all routes of entry, and at all parts of the colony and hive. Forager bees,nurse bees, pupae, wax, honey, pollen - all have been investigated. Ok, now for our summary. The main indicator is not pollen, wax, or honey - it is the forager bee returning to the hive. And contrary to expectations, bees pick up lots of pollutants directly from the air. Water is another source. Pollen can be a route of entry into the hive, but nectar is usually the least important route of entry. Chemicals that occur as gases concentrate in field bees (at least double the level of hive bees (again, industrial gases, this does not apply to hive fumigants). Particulate borne chemicals pass rapidly from forager bees throughout the hive - nurse bees, bee bread, etc. The second ranked indicator (for volatile chemicals) is the air inside the hive box. For metals and other chemicals that stick to dust particles I would rank pollen as the second most useful indicator. In addition, by sampling bees and pollen, we can get some idea of what the source might be. Wax ranks a distant third for environmental monitoring. It is a sink for lots of things - but it does not always get worse through time. Junk builds up in wax, until the bees tear down the cells and rebuild. Then the levels drop. We see the highest wax residues during early spring, the lowest in mid-summer. Because one does not know when the wax became contaminated (could be as much as 8-10 years ago or yesterday), old wax is not very useful. Putting strips into the hive and letting the bee draw it out provides a means of aging the wax. Propolis is useful for some specific chemicals, but it is a more difficult material to analyze. Honey has been shown to be useful - for example, Roger Morse did some honey work years ago. But, compare honey to other materials or bees and one gets a different answer. For example, metals usually occur at levels 10-100 times higher in pollen and bees than in honey. Some things do go into the nectar and honey. Spray a flower with organophosphate insecticides, and you will see it in honey. Tritium also appears in honey (but only at very unusual sites like federal burial sites for radioactive materials). However, compared to other colony and hive components, we continue to be amazed at how "clean" honey remains. However, that does not mean that chemicals put inside the hive don't get into honey. They do! Also, use a zinc coated extracter, and I will find iron and zinc in your honey. My bias - although almost any environmental polluatant can be found in trace amounts in anything from bees to us, honey remains as clean or cleaner than other food products. In our general sampling, we have not found any environmental chemicals in honey at levels high enough to threaten human health. We can't say the same for pollen. We have found radioactive pollen near nuclear test facilities (rare and in low levels), lots of lead, arsenic, cadmium, and other toxic metals near smelters and chemical plants, and a grab bag of other junk. Bottom line, don't collect pollen in industrial zones. Does this means we shouldn't eat honey or pollen. No! They are good products, amazing so. But, beekeepers have to treat their product with care. The highest levels of foreign chemicals in bee products are almost always a result of chemicals used by beekeepers or as a consequence of contamination introduced while handling and processing the product. So much for my soap-box. Hope this helps clarify some issues. Jerry Bromenshenk The Unviversity of Montana-Missoula http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:28:00 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Obolonkin Subject: Help to three times novice Dear bee-l-keepers! I'm Vladimir Obolonkin - three times novice: in beekeeping (third year of experience only), in English (native language - Russian), and in Internet. So I'd like to establish link (links) with PATIENT, wise beekeeper(s). I have a lot of questions not dificult for real beekeeper who (I know that!) reads the BEE-L. At first I'd like to learn more about beekeeping in stacionar warmed pavilion, tips for the optimal way of hobbiest's beekeeping etc. I'm hobbiest in bekeeping, 36 y.o., professor of high school, lacky owner of little country-house in belorussian (do you know this country?) forest, 5 beehives, two children and darling wife. Sorry for my English, Cordially yours, Vlad Cheers, Vlad ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:52:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Use of 9 Frames for Brood - was Frame Grips again Here goes: After frames and hive bodies have been in use for more than a year or two, there is always a buildup of propolis and wax on the frames, the insides of the box, and on the rabbets that support the frames. Many beekeepers find that it makes things much easier if you remove one of the 10 frames and spread the remaining 9 out a bit. Benefits: -Easier to remove each comb, often without having to pry the stuck frames apart. (This means it's less likely you'll bust a frame end bar.) -Certainly easier to remove the first frame to make more room for manipulations. -Increased ventilation and clustering room in the brood nest. This has been said to relieve congestion considerably (acc. to Walter Kelley, Chas. Dadant, R. Taylor, others) -10% reduction in brood-frame-costs per hive. Disadvantages: -The combs are best constructed (initially) with the 10 frames together, so that they are built evenly. -Attention must be given to manner of spacing, if this is to work well. The end-bars are spaced so there's about 1/8" between them, this results in 1.5 inch (on center) comb spacing, approximately. This is acceptable by bees of European descent in the brood nest. There is then about 1/2" space left over at each side wall. The bees will draw the end combs out a bit deeper but they are still easily removed. -Frame-sway. This may be a problem with clean, new frames, or when the bees haven't had time to stick things together. After a couple of days, however, the frames are usually cemented in place by propolis and aren't apt to move. Also, once a colony is fully occupying a brood-box they brace the fixtures well. Propolis deposits on the end bars then act as solid spacers, and the frames can be pushed together with the correct spacing automatically maintained. NO, there isn't enough space for a good queen's brood on 9 frames. Yes, the outside combs hardly ever are used for brood. But then the usual practice is to use 2 brood boxes anyway. So the queen still has more than enough room. You can also use these conditions to your advantage: By keeping the best quality combs toward the center of the brood boxes, you ensure that the queen uses them for laying. Poorer or incomplete combs can act as the "outside" combs, next to the wall, where they are not wasted, but filled with food stores. Comb quality there is not so important. and...WINTERING: With two or more brood boxes there is plenty of room for winter stores. PLUS there is the added advantage of more cluster space between the combs. This allows better continuity to the cluster and, I suspect, better wintering success. Not just from 9-frame spacing, however. I find that the bees do better when they are provided with a good space under the lid where they can cluster across the frame tops. You can provide this by flipping the inner cover over, or with an added 1-2" rim. This also provides a place for administering dry sugar or candy in late winter. I hope this explanation is helpful -- JG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:00:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Follower boards These are easier to remove than a frame to make space for removing the other combs. Use with 9 frames, they keep everything tight and neat, and probably reduce burr comb construction. They temper the temperature drop at the sides of the hive. But they are another piece of equipment to build, worry about and scrape off. IMO. Some simply-constructed ones warp badly, too. Otherwise granted they can be a plus. They aren't necessary, though, really. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:06:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ronald E Baker Subject: Hive Scales I am considering using a hive scale next year to monitor more accurately the timing of nectar flows, and as a means of learning more about what is happening inside the hive. I am new to beekeeping, but nevertheless, I am aware of the significance of hive weight (especially going into winter here in northeastern ohio). This might be from out in left field, but I have been trying to determine the relative weight of my hives. I tilt a hive to the side and insert a common bathroom scale between the bottom of the hive and the hive stand. The reading becomes an index which I use in comparing other hives "weighed" in the same manner. The resulting information is limited, but simply knowing the relative weights of my hives is somewhat useful. With more experience a simple "heft" might be good enough. I would appreciate comments relating to the use of hive scales. Thank you. Ronald E Baker baker@mail.multiverse.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kenneth H. Tetrick" Subject: Re: The sounds bees make I was very excited to see the message on auditory measurements of hive sounds. Just this week I am planning to buy enough hive parts to investigate how I might integrate electronic monitoring devices into a hive in a way that would be unintrusive to the bees. I became intensly interested in bees and beekeeping this summer. Since I live in an appartment in a city that does not permit bees to be kept, I want very much to do so and will probably have to move soon. In addition to just wanting my own bees to watch, I am interested in all manner of monitoring the hive, including temperature, humidity, sound and visual monitoring. While I am not an electrical engineer, I have worked with electronics some and computers. Still, having no experience with bees, I expect lots of very interesting setbacks and successes with all of this. I think there are a lot of interesting observations that could be made with this kind of monitoring including even monitoring things like the number of bees entering and leaving the hive each day and the times of these activities. I have become especially interested in sound monitoring and perhaps other selected monitoring to detect or predict swarming and also things like the general health of the colony. This whole approach might seem a little expensive initially, and overly expensive to do commercially. And there are problems like what the effects of transmitters or digital electronics operating in the hive might be. I was thinking of simple sensors actually in the hive with any complex electronics that would emit high frequency e-m being located away from the hive, maybe on a post. In the long run, this kind of thing could become economically feasible though. For now, my main interest is in being able to monitor as much of thhe hive's activities as I can without having to open up the hive to have a look. I would be interested in the plans and information mentioned by Joe Hemmens and also any other advice or information anyone might be able to provide. Thanks! Ken Tetrick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:57:36 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Follower boards Personally I swear by follower boards! I made up a batch at the beginning of season '96 for most of my hives and frankly, I'd have them in every deep box I own except I have never found them offered commercially. As I have not the tools to manufacture them myself, borrowing what I need to mill the wood and construct the follower boards is quite a PITA! Does anyone know of a vendor who offeres follower boards? I would very much like to find one. Aaron Morris - thinking there's a buck to be made! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:51:48 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Carniolans Garrett Dodds wrote: > You should be able to see a color difference between the two different > races. The Italians should be yellow and the Carniolans should be black. > The Carniolans probably have some yellow workers because of miss matings, > but most of them should be pretty black. For those interested, and with a suitable browser, I have pictures of Carniolans, Italians and Buckfast bees and queens on my homepage. URL http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/pics.htm -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:06:06 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Help to three times novice I do not pretent to be the worlds greatest beekeeper but I love bees and beekeeping and I like to help . You can reach me here on the B-Line or at my E- Mail fries@servcom.com. It would be nice to have a penpal. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:20:41 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Hive Scales Your method of comparison sounds interesting. It sounds as though it would be fairly consitant . I persoanlly would fore go the hefting part though. Among the many other reasons would be the impossability of checking several years data. How can a person say how much heft there was last year? Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:23:48 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Follower boards I would love to hear about follower boards. Can you say how they are built and used? Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:07:43 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" I was writing this for my memoirs and I thot some of you might be interested in the musings of a real old-timer. No one has to read it. <---- Begin Attached File ----> begin 644 SWARMS.RTF M>UQR=&8P7&%N65A2!T=V\@2!S=7!P M;'D@86YD(&%T=&5M<'0@=&\@87-S96UB;&4@=&AE('-U<&5R2!W87@@;6]T:',@8G5T M(&9O2!P;&%N;F5D(&9O2!H860@=&AE(&-O;6(@2!T:&4@=&EM92!T:&4@;VAI82!L96AU M82!B96=I;G,@8FQO2P@22!S:&]U;&0@:&%V M92!T=V\@2!T;R!M86ME(&UE860N M7'!A2!S;VUE(&EN;F]V871I;VYS($D@:&%V92!B M965N(&-O;G-I9&5R:6YG(&QI:V4@=&AE('-C2!B96ME97!E7,@=7-E9"!F;&%T(&-O=F5RFEN9R!A=F%C861O65A"!W965K ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:33:14 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Whitney S. Cranshaw" Subject: Slides/pictures of mites? I am an extension entomologist at Colorado State (USA) and am preparing a sheet explaining the varroa/tracheal mite situation and how to manage it locally. However, I would like to have a couple of illustrations of the mites and/or their life history. I am unaware of anything that is in the "public domain", that could be used without permission. Does anyone have slides or line drawings of tracheal/varroa mites that could be used in a handout? I would pay for expenses in duplicating and would give credit to the source in any use. The plans are for use in in-state handouts and on our CD-ROM of Extension fact sheets. Please contact me directly if there is a possibility of working something out. Thanks. Whitney Cranshaw former Department of Entomology Colorado State University wcransha@ceres.agsci.colostate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:03:42 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MR G JOHNSTON Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Manuscript info.? I am currently writing my thesis on honeybee morphology and related aspects. I have found a large intracolonial variance of honeybee size which could be explained to comb age. There is a correlation of honeybee size and comb age whereby the cell size decreases with age (cocoon build-up). I would like to know if anyone knows of any citable references to prove this phenomenon or has experience/suggestions about it. Thanks in advance Gavin +-----------------------------------+ | I walked in through the open door | | couldn't believe what I saw | | They were all around me | | Epeleptics to a banjo melody. | | GAVIN JOHNSTON | | G93J2616@WARTHOG.RU.AC.ZA | +-----------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:34:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Follower boards In Eugene Killion's HONEY IN THE COMB he gives plans for making solid durable follower boards. The major difficulty would be in finding 3/8" stock to make them from. Another description I once saw used 3/8" masonite, the size of a frame, with a strip of sheet metal bent over the top (the metal was the length of a top bar). There were 4 rivets popped thru the metal holding it securely to the board. The "ears" of the follower board were formed by bending under the sheet metal on each end (where it juts past the edge of the board). I've not made any like this but it seems straightforward. An old-timer once suggested to me the idea of manufacturing quality follower boards. They are never offered by suppliers or in the journals. Someone could no doubt make a nice little business of it, it they could make them in large quanitities and offer to ship them. I think they'd be popular. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:42:24 GMT Reply-To: phoenix@aug.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stanton A Hershman Organization: Phoenix Subject: Re: Help to three times novice In-Reply-To: On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:06:06 -0800, you expounded on something about: >I do not pretent to be the worlds greatest beekeeper but I love bees = and >beekeeping and I like to help . You can reach me here on the B-Line or = at >my E- Mail fries@servcom.com. It would be nice to have a penpal. > hello jerry sounds good to me. been raising bees for years, but not continuously. = there was a period of about 15 years that it just couldn't be done. does that = give away my age?? 55 started off slow this year with only hives. the spring promises about = 10 in 3 different locations. 2 hives are doing very well and the third i am = worried about. just not strong enough for my tastes and it is too late to = re-queen. in am in ne florida where it is usually warm enough most of the year for = the hives to be active. except for last winter, which was a brutal killer. = if this winter looks like a replay, i will wrap them in styrofoam boards and roofing felt to help keep them warmer. have pulled 8 gallons this year = so far from the 3 and have two full shallow and deep supers to pull yet. the shallows are setup for cut comb. fill me in best regards stanton = =20 =20 phoenix@aug.com WEBPAGE: userpages.aug.com/phoenix =20 MADNESS TAKES ITS TOLL. PLEASE HAVE EXACT CHANGE.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:44:04 GMT Reply-To: phoenix@aug.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stanton A Hershman Organization: Phoenix Subject: Re: Help to three times novice In-Reply-To: my apologies to the list for sending a personal reply via the list. must be getting old or senile or all three. stanton = =20 =20 phoenix@aug.com WEBPAGE: userpages.aug.com/phoenix =20 MADNESS TAKES ITS TOLL. PLEASE HAVE EXACT CHANGE.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:03:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: More Mavrik pontification! DJT>I tried making essentially the same point in August (the dipping of cloth >strips into Mavrick and use of the strips in place of Apistan is one form >of the "home remedy" I referred to as being used by some of the large >honey producers) but received but one reply (a lengthy one from the old >drone, more or less downplaying the problem because it was being monitored >and nobody was in a position to cheat!; you may remember it). David, I don't remember that post, I hope you did not take it personally and I have always tried to identify my ramblings as my own "opinion" based on my own experiences and none have been anything more then that. But if you know that other's are breaking the law there are official channels to place this kind of information in other then this echo ware it tends to paint all commercial beekeepers with the same brush which is far from fair or the actual truth of the the misuse of agricultural chemicals in the bee yards that I have inspected. No one group is any better then the other at following the law or directions as far as my own experience has seen it over 40+ years with beekeepers of all stripes; commercial, hobby, educational, or regulatory beekeepers. I personally know NO one who is doing this, (using Mavrik), and if I did I am not sure it would concern me enough to do anything about it other then caution the beekeeper to not use it or any other chemical in a way that it could get into the extracted honey or wax. I am not a bee regulator or anyone's judge and I know the hopelessness of seeing your bees die after doing everything that you know that is recommended to prevent their death, when every death represents a personal loss to the beekeeper, until all hope is lost, so I have become in some respects a cautious liberal when it comes to beekeeper efforts to maintain healthy productive bees. All the commercial beekeepers I know are spending big bucks using the recommended strips, but then I don't know everyone, and I have no way of knowing what or who we are that post in this and other beekeeping echo's as I know not others definition of a commercial beekeeper. I was never one of those, I am a professional beekeeper myself, and am still one temporarily without bees. I suspect that the commercial beekeepers are out numbered fifty or a 100 to 1 by beekeepers with interests other then commercial honey production here. The point I was trying to make is that anyone who produces honey for sale outside the home commercially has a very good chance of having it screened or tested for bee farm chemicals by one or more of the major honey packers and nothing has been more self regulating then the few dozen or so commercial lots of domestic honey that have been rejected by several packers and SUE Bee because of chemical residues other then sugars the last few years. Incidentally SUE Bee has more restrictive tolerances on what level of chemicals can be found in honey then the FDA or the USDA, but much of the SUE Bee honey would not pass muster in the European market tests because of different concerns. It is also the law in the US that with some chemicals the packer must also notify the FDA of what was found such as with EDB, and a follow up investigation by the FDA police, including a field trip, armed and with search warrants if necessary, to the beekeepers headquarters for a on site investigation is normal. Rejected honey must be destroyed or in some cases can be fed back to bees during the non production season, and not just shipped to another honey packer who may not be aware of any problem, and proof of its disposal must be demonstrated. It is a very serious matter and one that most would not want to go through the 2nd time. With SUE Bee once your honey has been found to have residues and it is shipped back to you at your expense, every lot from you from then on is checked if you still want to stay in the co-op. >was/is that we ought to be concerned about the wax pool (stream, whatever) I may have said this before, but because much beeswax is sold after it leaves the beekeepers hands to large wax refiners that are also more or less in the chemical business with good working labs, beeswax is checked much more frequently then honey. Beeswax has changed over the years, it is contaminated with less heavy metals such as iron and copper, but some increases have been noted in the amount of bromides in the average sample which may or may not be from 20+ years of EDB use by beekeepers but also could be from a natural increase in the environment from other bromide uses. Because heat and heavy filtration through carbon and other chemical aids are possible with beeswax most farm chemicals in use by beekeepers have not been a problem in pure beeswax which is still used in some medical preparations and needs to bee pure. Beeswax was one of the few re numeral farm products that has the potential to magnify the additions of contaminates over a period of 75 or 100 years since comb foundation was first milled. This has somewhat diminished with the advent of plastic core and plastic foundations. >> > ... I don't see what everyone is so worried about >> > however... After all, there are hordes of lab techs out there >> > monitoring the purity of wax and honey... right? I don't know about any "hordes", but there are a few people who's job it is to protect our food, they are not numerous, and the honey processors also few in numbers who are just as concerned as any regulator, and then the majority of commercial beekeepers who produce honey that is consumed by the public that depend on the good will of all to protect the value of the "pure" in "pure honey". Together all of this is only cursory in nature and most honey is not tested for farm chemicals, but enough is that any general problems would be detected and are. At this time there is NO problems with US honey and none is expected but this does not preclude individuals from puffing in their own nest, and as you report one or more may be doing just that in your area. The fact they are commercial only increases the odds that they will be discovered if they are indeed causing their honey or beeswax to become contaminated. It may also be the fact that what they are doing is just as safe as what others may be doing but does not fall into what is a recommended use as defined by law and regulation because there is no useful process of having such uses permitted because of our less then perfect system of farm pesticide registration of minor uses... There is nothing stoping anyone from having a retail sample of honey analysed at their own expense. The bee industry itself pays for several dozens of samples of honey to be check for the addition of sugars other then honey each year at a honey lab supported by the industry. SUE Bee has its own lab and uses two private labs for conformation of suspected chemical or added non honey sugar contamination. Public interest groups are free to check any honey found in the retail market for whatever they want to look for and you can be sure that they do and when they find something we all will hear about it. Different research groups have completed many adventures into the micro contamination of honey and wax from dozens of environmental chemical contaminates for over 40 years that I know about, and much information has been published by different federal, state, and educational groups on the results. None of this information is being hidden, held back, or minimized from anyone other then what is truly confidential such as SUE Bee is not going to publish a list of producers who's honey has been found to be thought to be contaminated by its in house testing process. At the same time none of this information has demonstrated a need for more testing or regulation other then what is now being done and the continued application of a fair amount of common sense by all beekeepers and the watchful eye of big brother as jaundice as it may bee. ttul OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ HTTP://SUEBEE.COM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:04:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Fumigation BT>From: Brian Tassey >To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L >Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:50:46 -0400 >Subject: Re: Fumigation BT>I've got a question about fumigating supers. I've got a space of about >10,000 cubic feet that I want to gas for waxmoth. It's pretty air tight and >the choices so far are burning sulfur or Phostoxin. Anyone with Phostoxin >experience? Hello Brian, PHOSTOXIN is a lot safer to use then sulfur, IMHO. I have used both. Phostoxin is not cheep. Phostoxin will kill you 100% of the time if that is what you intend it for and you stay in the room for a short time and breath its fumes. This is a violation of the product label. Your dog and cat will die if they are left in the room when you fumigate your combs. This also is a violation of the label as using it to put down unwanted kittens. Your wife and kids will also die if you leave them in the room when you fumigate. This is a violation of the label for use of this product in California, but the product could be used in our death chambers if there was a recall of the WWII gas now used. Other then that it is a 100% safe fumigant to use and in fact is no different then using cyno-gas it has replaced as far a the use and precautions, just costs three times as much and requires a permit to use in California. Phostoxin will also clean out any rats or mice that you may have brought in with any dead hives. Phostoxin will kill a 300# mouse, four times the size then the most widely used mouse food you can buy in any food store will do. Phostoxin is the choice if the worms have got a good start, but it may require several applications. Phostoxin will not kill the spiders and they seem to do well with its use. Phostoxin does require a licence to use in California. I don't know if there is now a cost to acquiring that licence, it would not surprise me. When I got mine all you had to do was put you card in the hat that was passed around a dark room at a sales meeting put on by the regulatory authorities and the chemical sellers, I dropped in all the cards in my wallet at the time and our county sheriff is still wondering why he got a nice frame able licence to use Phostoxin. Phostoxin is also excellent for killing the gophers in your lawn and garden, ground squirrels, skunks, and the like, but this may require a different licence as it would if you were to use it to kill mice in your bee combs. It also requires the victims be home at the time of application. Sulfur is less costly, and really works good in comb storage rooms that are not connected to other buildings, such as land/sea containers converted to comb storage/fumigation rooms. 95% of all beekeepers who burn sulfur for comb fumigation have at one time burned down their comb storage buildings, some have done it more then once. Sulfur fumes are very hard on metal and electrical fixtures. I don't believe a licence is yet required here to burn sulfur but it could be. Some commercial beekeepers are able to work in a heavy sulfur atmosphere that would gag most civilians. Sulfur can also be used to aid the drying of fruits. The best and least costly method for wax worm free comb storage is a large size water cooler that runs between midnight and 8 am during the summer months. This requires both a treated air entrance and exhaust. The entrance should be at the floor level and the exit at the highest level of the roof with some way to open and close it. This requires NO licence or permit to control wax pests and will not harm yourself, your family, pets, or help. It does have some initial costs for the hardware and installation, but that is 100% tax deductible and could earn you some points with your local environmental groups, some who buy honey. A wise beekeeper will not introduce dead hives into his honey comb storage room, but will treat them independently from the extracted honey supers and will eliminate 99% of the re-infestation by adult wax moths to his comb storage room or building. Most all beekeepers use some form of light trap in their comb storage room to monitor the flights of adult moths and can make some judgements on their control efforts. The big ones that fry the moths and bees are very entertaining 2nd only to the outside bug traps that so many families sit around on those warm summer evenings when there is nothing on the boob tube. ttul, OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "Where there are fruits & nuts, there are beekeepers" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:50:41 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping-Australian Style Dear Robert: Thank you for a most enjoyable look at OZZIE migratory beekeeping. I have a couple of questions: > The >best return I've heard of lately was 650 x 300kg drums from 800 hives in >one year returning a bulk honey price of AUD$1.75-$1.80/kg. That is a truly stupendous yield. You say that is the best return. What might an average return be, in an average year (weight of honey per hive). I'm just looking for a very rough guess on your part. Do you think yields are similar for migratory beekeepers in other areas of Australia, West Australia for example? >This channel country is world famous (in Australia) for huge crops of >Yapunyah honey. The Yapunyah is a short eucalypt that produces large >crops of a very light honey having a natural moisture content of around >15% (try and wipe that off your knife). It is a truly delicious honey. > The channel country starts about 1000 km from the coast. It is mostly >sheep of beef country with low stocking capacity and very large >properties. One of the largest in this region is 3,500 sq miles in >area. Wow, that one property is about the same size as Prince Edward Island, the province of Canada I happen to inhabit (admittedly the tiniest province). When the beekeepers are putting hives in the channel country how many hives might they put in one yard, and how far apart would the yards be (assuming that the area had an average to good density of Yapunyah? Would the stocking density vary much in other eucalypts? I was also curious as to the extent to which the beekeepers themselves followed the hives, and whether they used mobile extracting facilities. Thanks again for a fascinating post. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:33:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ann Dougherty Subject: Bloom In-Reply-To: <199610090150.WAA26581@bud.peinet.pe.ca> I'm trying to figure out how to prevent bloom from occuring on my beeswax candles. I know I can remove it from the wax when it appears with a blow dryer and cloth. But i would rather prevent it from occuring. Is it an envirnmental problem or is it in all wax naturally? Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:34:32 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Betty B It's just a little difficult to understand. Wonder why. At 11:07 AM 10/8/96 -1000, you wrote: >I was writing this for my memoirs and I thot some of you might be interested in >the musings of a real old-timer. No one has to read it. ><---- Begin Attached File ----> >begin 644 SWARMS.RTF >M>UQR=&8P7&%NM4FUN.WU[7&8Q7&9S=VESM?7M<8V]L;W)T8FP[7')E9#!<9W)E96XP7&)L=64P.UQR960P7&=R965N,%QB >M;'5E,3(W.UQR960P7&=R965N,3(W7&)L=64P.UQR960P7&=R965N,3(W7&)L >M=64Q,C<[7')E9#$R-UQGM93$R-SM<M8FQU93$R-SM<M=64R-34[7')E9#!<9W)E96XR-35<8FQU93`[7')E9#!<9W)E96XR-35<8FQU >M93(U-3M<M,C4U.UQR960R-35<9W)E96XR-35<8FQU93`[7')E9#(U-5QGM;'5E,C4U.WU<;&EN97@P(%QS8FMN;VYE(`T*7&UAM,CDV(%QP;&%I;B!<9W5T=&5R-S(P(%QM87)G8C$T-#`@7&UAM;6%R9V(V(%QP87)D(%QT86(@5V4@M=V\@>65AM<&UE;G0@9&ED;B=T(&=E="!M;W9E9"!A=V%Y(&9R;VT@;W5R('!L86-E(&%N >M9"!L87-T($UA>2!T=V\@M('1H:7,@<&%R="!O9B!(87=A:6D@=V4@=7-U86QL>2!C;VYS:61EM('1HM5&AE(&UA:F]R:71Y(&]F(&AO;F5Y(&-O;65S(&9R;VT@2F%N=6%R>2!T;R!- >M87DN7'!AM:6=H="!A2!S=7!P >M;'D@86YD(&%T=&5M<'0@=&\@87-S96UB;&4@=&AE('-U<&5RM87)MM97)S(&AA9"!B965N(&)A9&QY(&-H97=E9"!U<"!B>2!W87@@;6]T:',@8G5T >M(&9OM860@8F5E;B!L969T(&EN('!L86-E+EQP87(@#0I<<&%R(`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`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` >end ><---- End Attached File ----> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We are like kids' art on God's refrigerator. - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Cecile T. Kohrs" Subject: Re: Faith's comment on Honey tastings In a message dated 96-10-08 08:11:31 EDT, you write: << Cecile asks if various honey taste sweeter. We had a "honey" tasting at one our beekeeping assoc. meetings and were astounded at the various levels of "sweet" they all had. Laboratory tests might have shown that the sugar level or sweetness level was all the same but our tastebuds said differently. Try this at your next meeting, it's as much fun as a wine tasting and you can drive home afterwards safely. >> I don't mean to harp on this, but it really does affect one's cooking with honey. I used a different honey to make more fruit bread, and the last batch was awful. It has a nice honey flavor, but it didn't bake well at all. That's probably one reason why people have less desire to bake with it. It's not like you can modify one recipe once and have done. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 00:00:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Thinking Out Loud -- Long Range Trends & Plans Thinking Out Loud -- Long Range Trends & Plans October, 1996 Almost everyone expected to see a dip in honey prices as extraction got underway in the US. Without the honey program to even out things, it would be expected that beekeepers would be having to sell some honey to pay bills, and packers would take advantage of this need to sell. The dip did not happen. Furthermore, while there were a few areas with very good crops, most areas are reporting middling to poor production. Without the expected dip, the price trend is more securely established upward. Foreign competition seems less a threat, also. There seems to be developing a worldwide bee shortage, and at the same time, an increased worldwide demand for honey. Many developing countries are developing a taste for honey along with their prosperity. Most of the prices I've heard are running a bit less than a dollar, with over a dollar for a few sales of premium honeys. I would not be a bit surprised to see regular prices over a dollar this winter. Pollination prices are also bound to rise. Many growers do not realize that they are competing with the honey market for their pollination, but they do. There were a few cases last spring and summer, of beekeepers who abandoned their customary pollination clients to push for more honey. Apple growers in the northeast, found some of their regular suppliers did not move north to them, but rather stayed in Florida after orange blossom to take a shot at the palmetto flow, or South Carolina for blackberry/gallberry. So there were spot shortages of bees, and growers desperate to find them. The same happened with later vegetable crops in the north, with beekeepers all supered up, and unwilling to move bees to crops. The stresses of moving, the risks of pesticide losses, etc. just were not worth it, considering the value of honey. This past spring was kind of a free-for-all in package, nuc, and queen sales in the southeast. Bad weather hurt, but the situation would still have been manic without the bad weather. I expect the demand for bees to be even higher next spring, even if northern winter losses are not as severe. Many beekeepers replaced only part of their losses this year, and will be looking for more. Those who made a good honey crop; even those who were off a bit, but got a good price, will be bankrolled for more bees, and the honey market will push them to get more. A lot of people have noticed the lack of pollinators. I have gotten a number of inquiries from gardeners, who are thinking of getting into keeping bees. Add to this the fruit growers who will be trying to get a corner on more early bees for their pollination, and you have potential for a large demand. An unknown is the US - Canada situation. With varroa moving into Canada, there is less reason for the border closure, and there is some pressure for a reopening of the border. Our Canadian friends may be able to comment better on the possibility. All in all, it boils down to one simple fact: If you want to obtain more bees next spring, you should be starting to plan now. Any good beekeeper who can overwinter a strong hive, can make that cow give him a calf in the spring. In some areas, by good planning and care, he or she can make it give up two or three "calves." If your honey flow is late, this can be a very good technique for increase. If it is early, you will give up part of your honey production to get more bees. Anyone who wants to purchase bees should be talking with the sellers as early as possible. Most sellers come out with a new price list about the first of the year. There are some, who would probably still honor this years prices, for orders paid up before the new year. One should be careful to deal only with outfits with a good reputation for this kind of deal, but it is a possible way to hedge against fairly certain price increases. The traditional rule of thumb, in purchasing beehives is a penny to the dollar. that is, if honey is bringing 50 cents, a hive should cost fifty dollars. And dollar honey would then mean hundred dollar hives. That's not to say good deals cannot be found. But, if you plant to buy, you might want to start checking out the scene right now. Maybe you can find a retiring beekeeper, or a beekeeper's heir, whose bees are still alive. It has been done, though it often turns out to be a lot of extra work, and possibly foulbrood. I once had 18 hives (survivors of 40 some-odd hives) given to me, by someone who had been gung ho, and then lost interest. The bees had not been worked in several years. I was young and foolish, and thought my ship had come in. But the hives had mostly died out, been eaten up by wax worms, then replenished by swarms. After you clean up a bunch of bees, with combs built crossways to the frames, not to consider the termites, you think again about accepting such a gift. Another time I had a pickup truckload of equipment given to me; mostly deep supers, with foundation in the frames. It was all homemade, even the frames. To my consternation, (after hauling it home), it was all slightly off size! Anyone with a lot of good healthy bees should be sitting on a gold mine next spring. I wish I were in that position. Unfortunately we have been knocked down again with pesticide losses this season. This cuts our supply, and it looks like a lot of our increase will again go to make up our own losses. It is sickening to see how few hours it takes for bees that are hanging out the front, to be transformed back into nucs. Oh, well........never hurts to think and dream..... Please forgive my ramblings...... I'd love to hear other comments. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:32:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Blohm Subject: Re: Labels and Rubber Stamps In a message dated 96-10-05 07:34:20 EDT, you write: << I make up flour paste by slowly adding a pint of water to 1/3 cup of flour, stirring to get a good mixture as I'm adding the water. When well mixed I cook over medium heat, stirring constantly to avoid scorching, for two minutes after boiling begins. I cool it, add about 5 drops of clove oil for a preservative. I use a paint brush to brush the paste onto a sheet of glass then put the label on the glass to pick up the paste. A wiping motion seems to work well. I use a damp sponge to help in pressing the label to the jar. Works well on glass, poorly on plastic. White glue (aliphatic resin??) seems to be ok on plastic though I've used plastic very little and don't have a good opinion here. >> Another thing you can try, I learned from a MB in PA, is to use evaporated milk for glueing on homemade labels (works great). Then brush onto a board or glass as described. Rich Blohm, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:09:53 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Laidlaw Subject: Bee sting hit the nerve I'm a beginning beekeeper and still have some local swellings after bee stings, but about two months ago a skilful bee managed to reach into the nerve above the end joint on my left ring finger. As a result I have lost a lot of sensation up that side of my finger tip, and it shows no sign of improving. It doesn't prevent me doing things, but it's a bit sensitive. Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks for all the tips. There must be hundreds of years of experience coming through this list! Bruce Laidlaw Sydney Australia ------------------------------------------------- \ Bruce Laidlaw (\ / \ Head Teacher {|||8- / \ Foundation Studies (/ / \ East Sydney College of TAFE / \ (Technical & Further Education) / \ Darlinghurst / \ New South Wales / \ Australia 2010 / \ +61-2-9569-2854 (h) 9339-8648 (w) / \ http://pip.com.au/~abestuds/ / ================================================ (\ /) {|||8- Beekeeper -8|||} (/ \) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:55:53 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: bee asso. addresses >Greetings all > >I have had a request from our local (South African) beekeepers >association for the addresses of equivalent bodies in a number of >countries. I don't have this info; can anybody(ies) in the various >countries represented on BEE-L help me with the information, please. > >What I am looking for is the postal address of the national >beekeeping association in each of the following countries: > >USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, UK, Netherlands, >France, Germany, Italy, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand > > >Many thanks > >Mike Allsopp > > > > >Mike Allsopp tel (27)(21) 887-4690 >Honeybee Research Section fax (27)(21) 883-3285 >Plant Protection Research Institute pmail plant3/vredma >Agricultural Research Council email vredma@plant3.agric.za >P/Bag X5017 >Stellenbosch 7599 >South Africa > The Canadian Honey Council has as its Secretary-Treasurer: Linda Gane at: P O Box 1566, Nipawin, Saskatchewan, CANADA, S0E 1E0 Phone 306-862-3844 and Fax: 306-862-5122 The magazine published by the Honey Council, a quarterly, is called HiveLights and is available from: Fran Kay and Associates R R #2, Chase B. C. Canada V0E 1M0 Phone/Fax (604)679-5362 E-mail address: frankay@netshop,net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:55:57 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: The sounds bees make >Hi Joe, > >I would be interested in receiving information concerning this subject. >My electronics knowledge is a little limited, but would like to see the >description(schematic?) of the apidictor. > >This is a very exciting idea. > >Paul > >Joe Hemmens wrote: >> Several years later I was lucky to come across an article by an UK >> beekeeper called Rex Boys. It described the work of a beekeeper and >> BBC sound engineer called Eddie Woods from the late thirties to the >> late fifties. Rex (who was a colleague of Eddie Woods and who still lectures >> about his work) very kindly sent me some articles about Eddie Woods' >> work. >> He found that an apiary of 30 colonies could be 'measured' in about 3 >> minutes >> >> Most of the development of the Apidictors was carried out in the late >> forties and early fifties and although I know little about >> electronics I reckon this was pretty clever stuff. The Apidictor was >> produced in small numbers on a commercial basis, but the price and >> the attitude of beekeepers prevented it from becoming a success. >> >> My guess is that today an improved Apidictor could be produced in >> quantity for little more than a couple of jars of honey. I have >> copies of the technical descriptions of the Apidictor if anyone is >> interested. Surely there must be a subscriber to Bee-Line who knows >> about electronics! >> >> Eddie also had an article published in New Scientist in the fifties >> describing the frequency of the worker's wingbeat. As he describes >> it, previous measurements had been made by measuring the wingbeat of a >> fanning worker or by mechanically restraining the bee (pinnning?!). >> These give a figure of about 180 beats per second. Because Eddie had >> such a fine ear he could tell when playing keys on the piano and >> comparing the sound with the buzz of a bee flying in his room that >> this was incorrect. He explained that the centre of motion of a bee >> in flight changes and hence the frequency is about 250 beats per >> second. He later confirmed this with an oscilloscope. >> >> IBRA have copies of Eddie's work and the BBKA have put together a >> tape made from rather aged recordings of 'Sounds from the Beehive' >> including one called something like 'Murder in the Apiary' which is >> a recording of the emergence and battle of young queens and their >> piping. >> >> I would be happy to forward any information that I have >> available about the work of Eddie Woods to who anyone shares my rather >> esoteric interest in the noises made by bees! >> >> Best wishes >> >> Joe Hemmens > Sorry - I have not learned how to reply by snipping most of the previous posting --> I just wanted to add my twp cents worth: Queens in cages, shipped in quantity for requeening, are very interesting,in that thhheir individual sou;nds are quite audible and not all exactly the same. A little imagination might make you think of a very special choir, as the multiple tones are quite musical. Incidentally such a package has its own quite distinctive odor, too! Eunice "From the Cradle of Confederation" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:14:17 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: BCULTURE@aol.com: The Internet Article I sent Kim Flottim at BEE CULTURE compliments on the article on the internet in the October issue. His reply: --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- Hello, Thanks for the kind words. Check out our web site at www.airoot.com now, and in the next couple of months. We will soon be publishing a Who's Who on the net, complete with addresses, web sites and more. Plus, we'll have seperate pages on varroa control, t mite control, other disease id and more. Stay tuned. Kim --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 08:37:03 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Hive Scales At 02:06 PM 10/8/96 -0400, you wrote: >I am considering using a hive scale next year to monitor more accurately the >timing of nectar flows, and as a means of learning more about what is >happening inside the hive. I am new to beekeeping, but nevertheless, I am >aware of the significance of hive weight (especially going into winter here >in northeastern ohio). To have a hive on a scale is a terrific learning tool. We have charted one for years and it is indeed interesting. On the downside, the hive I keep on a scale always outperforms all of me other colonies. Maybe I should buy more scales :) >This might be from out in left field, but I have been trying to determine >the relative weight of my hives. I tilt a hive to the side and insert a >common bathroom scale between the bottom of the hive and the hive stand. >The reading becomes an index which I use in comparing other hives "weighed" >in the same manner. The resulting information is limited, but simply >knowing the relative weights of my hives is somewhat useful. With more >experience a simple "heft" might be good enough. How about 2 bathroom scales, lift one side onto the scale, then the other onto the second scale. The weight is the sum of the two scales. It is a little more work but will be accurate. After a few trials you should be able to prepare a table that will give you a pretty good idea of the weight from a single scale. After awhile, you should be able to simply heft one side and 'know' the weight. Eric Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 08:14:55 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: The sounds bees make Ken Tetrick wrote (in response to earlier interest in the subject and in part): > I was very excited to see the message on auditory measurements of >hive sounds. Just this week I am planning to buy enough hive parts >to investigate how I might integrate electronic monitoring devices >into a hive in a way that would be unintrusive to the bees. > I became intensly interested in bees and beekeeping this summer. >Since I live in an appartment in a city that does not permit bees >to be kept, I want very much to do so and will probably have to move >soon. In addition to just wanting my own bees to watch, I am interested >in all manner of monitoring the hive, including temperature, humidity, >sound and visual monitoring. While I am not an electrical engineer, I >have worked with electronics some and computers. Still, having no >experience with bees, I expect lots of very interesting setbacks and >successes with all of this. .......... > I would be interested in the plans and information mentioned by >Joe Hemmens and also any other advice or information anyone might be >able to provide. ***** For a look of some sonagrams of sounds made by bees in their hive, you can consult one of the first such displays published (April, 1964. "Sound communication in honey bees" SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN 210:116-124). [Of course, as indicated in earlier exchanges on this network, I no longer believe in the notion of dance recruitment of bees (for example, see pp. 551 and 552 in this month's issue of BEE CULTURE.)] Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * * "The difference between real and unreal things is that * * unreal things usually last much longer." Pot-Shots #6728 * * Copyright, Ashleigh Brilliant -- used with permission * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:24:06 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James Amrine Subject: Re: OILS At 10:42 AM Phil Wood wrote: >I have a bit of a question about the text at this site: >Specifically, the authors mention that wintergreen, spearmint, >and peppermint oils have proven successful, that spearmint patties >were propolized, but not wintergreen, teatree, or patchouli oils. >The question has a small interest to me because I have a large bottle of >peppermint oil left over from a prior experiment in controlling varroa >(I didn't run a no-apistan control). It seemed to work quite well. > >Does this mean that no research was done with peppermint oil? I assume >we could just use it in the same amount as wintergreen or spearmint oil. >Anyone have any information about it? > >Curiously, I didn't hear much from folks since the original posting >here. Does this mean that everyone is quietly going out and buying the >oils and seeing what will happen? >Or is this a new idea with promising preliminary results? > >Just curious- >Phil Wood >wood@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu Dear Phil and others using essential oils. Bob Noel and I have use peppermint oil and it is effective in reducing varroa when used in the syrups. I believe Bob tried it in tracking strips and said that the odor quickly evaporated. Apparently, it is more volatile than wintergreen, tea tree and patchouli oils; we are trying the heavier oils that seem to last longer in the tracking strips and grease patties. Sincerely, Jim Amrine Division of Plant & Soil Sciences P. O. Box 6108, West Virginia University Morgantown, WV 26506-6108 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> Telephone: 304-293-6023 <> <> Fax: 304-293-2960 <> <> web: http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 08:33:11 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: The sounds bees make Eunice Wonnacott wrote: >I just wanted to add my twp cents worth: Queens in cages, shipped in >quantity for requeening, are very interesting,in that thhheir individual >sou;nds are quite audible and not all exactly the same. A little >imagination might make you think of a very special choir, as the multiple >tones are quite musical. Incidentally such a package has its own quite >distinctive odor, too! I have pictures (sonagrams of sounds) of queen piping in the SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN article just mentioned in my earlier post. Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * * "The difference between real and unreal things is that * * unreal things usually last much longer." Pot-Shots #6728 * * Copyright, Ashleigh Brilliant -- used with permission * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Beluch Subject: More on Mavrick !!! on October 8, Max Watkins wrote: >>Dear Andy, >>You were right to state at the end, that your opinions expressed may >>not be facts. Thanks for shooting back, Max. This line of dicussions has been making my skin crawl. I work for an agricultural chemical company, and although I work with biopesticides, I'm quite familiar with the research, testing, and regulatory hurdles that these chemical compounds undergo. As for the "sweet deal" that you discuss, Andy, well, you try and get a company to go and produce a chemical, spend millions on testing, development, and an estimated $40 (yes, $40) million on registration, just so it can have access to an ~5-10 million per year market (help me on this one, Max) ! I don't think so. Most chemicals in my company are big time sellers, with global markets in excess of $200 million dollars. There is no 'deal', and as far as Zoecon's bottom line is concerned, I would think profits from Apistan are far from 'sweet'. Most in the (chemical) industry are suprised is still being marketed. As for the folks at the EPA, well, there just responding to a perceived need. If you talk to the researchers at the USDA Bee lab, it won't take you long to find out they're trying to get what ever it takes approved for use to help the industry, as long as its effective and relatively safe. Unfortunately, there are just not enough companies interested in supplying the chemistry. I know Apistan is costly, but there really is no legal alternative as yet. I'm not thrilled by the expense, but I use it as well. And until some other things are brought to light, we will have to make due. I'm hoping for essential oils, myself. And one last comment: Yes, we are a Zero tolerance soceity. And yes there will always be residues in food crops. But deliberate improper use of these chemicals can result in residue levels 100's to 1000's times greater than you are ever going to find normally in products on your supermarket shelf.I believe this is particularly true in water-based applications of fluvalinate (i.e. with Mavrick), although I don't have any first-hand data (Max?) Personally, when I eat honey, I don't want my mouth to tingle !!! 8-o Just my opinions. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:59:22 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: David Inouye e-mail address? Does anyone have a recent e-mail address for David Inouye? The one I tried from the 1/96 BEE-L listing didn't work just now. Please respond to me directly, and many thanks. Adrian *************************************************************** * Adrian Wenner E-Mail wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Dept.Ecol.,Evol.,& Mar.Biol. Office Phone (805) 893-2838 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-2675 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-8062 * * * * "The difference between real and unreal things is that * * unreal things usually last much longer." Pot-Shots #6728 * * Copyright, Ashleigh Brilliant -- used with permission * *************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:06:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: More Mavrik pontification! JJB>Sorry, but the ranking part of this statement is not correct. We have >spent 22 years looking at "dirt" in our environment with honey bees. Hi Jerry, It all depends on one's perspective. I was not putting down your work as I am sure it is as good or better then any other's and confirms what many beekeepers have assumed for as long as man has kept bees and that is the site one keeps his bees is all important and if you keep them on a dung heap you can expect to find dung residue in the hive, or on the bees. I have no doubt that the bee itself is the first line of entry of contaminants into the bee hive, the hairy beast does not always clean her feet or hair, and if what she carries in her honey tank or pollen baskets is dirty then what is stored in the hive may also be dirty. Bee's here bring in sulfur dust and in the days of smudge pots and burning tires to warm our orchards it was quite common to find all the pollen collected in the early mornings black with the heavy elements in the smoke. None of this effected more then the bees themselves and that is what I was trying to write about. The problem is that most of us do not eat the bee, so we look at the products we do eat. We look at the honey at the retail level, we look at the pollen at the retail level. If we really wanted to find what was in the bee food and honey before it is processed by the bees we would look at the nectar and pollen itself before the bees collected it. I know that we would find things that would not be appropriate for human food at the end of the honey making process. With pollen I know more but won't go into the details of very dangerous molds, spores, and the like that I have been able to recover from my own pollen traps that over time became part of the reason I gave up my own leadership in the pollen production business to others with less knowledge and experience. There may be some things we just don't want to know about and especially the things we can not change. If the only honey I can produce is from a dung heap then maybe I should accept it or quit producing honey. When everyone's honey comes from the same dung heap it will not make much difference and we all will have to look for something else to judge our honey by other then its dung content. The average beekeeper in California also looks at his bee's that may have died from the regulated mis-use of farm chemicals when his bee's are dead. If he is experienced he will also look at the crops the bees were working including the target and non target crops. Maybe your lab has developed the methods to detect all these materials on bees, but here in the real time world of beekeeping one soon finds out that other labs have not and if it is desirable to look for farm pesticides on the bee itself is low on the list of things that can reflect what may have killed the bees, but we always look. What I was referring to is the "honey" that reaches the consumer not the honey the bees may eat that is in the hive at the time the beekeepers uses what ever he uses to control mites...I am sure that if one has the right equipment it could be demonstrated that any time the neighbors cow's pass gas a record of some change in the bee hive could be made and this would be interesting and would add to the basic knowledge that we all need about our bees and our environment if it has not already been done in England. JJB>The good news is that little of the environmental junk gets into honey! >But, that only applies to sources outside the hive. In some circles the little that gets into the hive products is the problem if it is detectable in the consumer products at any level. I believe this is what much of our food safety code is all about. The problem is that some have little faith in that code and they may feel that when a product is surveyed at ppm and is declared free of whatever and then the same sample is tested a ppb, or ppt it is positive it is less then truthful to say at the ppm level the product was clean. Maybe scientists understand the difference, but some of us who are only beekeepers and consumers are not as wise. I am sorry I did not make myself more clearer on what I consider as target "honey" and that is not what I find in a bees gut or in the hive, it is what I sell to others and what others can buy from their local super market. >Chemicals used inside the hive can go right into the honey or >wax - especially those in liquid or volatile forms. No one that I know would dispute this or have I as it seems reasonable that what goes in should be free to get into the wood, metal, wax, pollen and honey, and it may be the basis that has dictated for as long as I can remember the when, what, and how beekeepers use farm chemicals to control pests, predators, and disease as it has not proven practical to treat individual bees, or their early individual life cycles though I have no doubts that some have been able to do this in the lab. I for many years used salt as a carrier or regulator for chemicals used in my bee hives. It went to the nails and ate them up in a very short time. In a year or two it was impossible to move a load of bees without leaving a dozen or more bottoms behind. I no longer use salt in my bee hives but do add it at times to the water I supply in areas that I can train my bees to use that water. I also add other things, but none of them are recommended by anyone but other beekeepers so I won't say that adding chlorine can save the loss of valuable bee locations in areas that have swimming pools within bee flight range, or some beekeepers believe that it also has medical value and can prevent loss from bad food during the winter. Of course when I added salt and chlorine to my bees hives or their food products such as the water they need at all times to consume any food, for sure it could have been recovered by any lab technician and I would/could have been in a world of hurt with some regulatory authorities. But I question or I should say the question should be was it detectable in the honey I extracted six months or a year later, or was it effective for the use I intended it to bee. I can tell you for sure I have never had any honey that was salty, but won't comment on some other flavors I have detected when consuming my own and others raw honey. JJB>Apistan is designed to control release - squirting cotton balls or dunking >cardboard is not the same. I have not read that they were the same except that maybe in areas of the world that they may be allowed they could be the same or better as being cost effective in some pest control management program as any other method. I must admit that to the average US beekeeper the buzz words "controlled release" sounds good, it is good advertisement, good press, good theater. I am not convinced it is all that great for controlling bee pests and I do not endorse the use of this or any other product for the control of bee pests, bee disease, or bee predators and I am at a loss to understand why so many people whom I respect for their own knowledge and experience do. On the surface it appears that birds of a feather flock together and I understand the old school ties between scientists, but I don't understand the same from within the beekeeping industry...that in total has suffered much from the same nice folks just trying to do us all a great service and make a few honest bucks helping us out selling chemicals to our farm neighbors to save their crops from perceived treats with fancy advertizements, nice young attractive farm agents from the best schools, and millions of research dollars, and the best political connections money can buy. All singing the same tune, treat the pests that may or may not be a real threat with what may be the legal, proper, and recommended but still kills a lot of bees and other things not targeted for control. The fact is that paper, card board, food grade grease, cotton, wood, sugar, even air, and many other natural and man made materials can be just as effective as a controlled release applicator as a plastic strip as said to be by its many protectors in the Apistan camp. To this beekeeper Apeestan is only another farm pesticide in a clumsy applicator and deserves little of the respect some would show it other then what I would give any other poison and I for one am disgusted at their advertizements showing honey and their dirty product in the same picture and shame on those who are not and shame on those who take their money to promote the use of their product. Some call it free enterprise advertisement, but when there is no competition it is little more then a bribe to a few to influence the rest of us. But then I am only one beekeeper and I am sure others feel different as I am just as sure that more then one beekeepers has added these strips to the smoker and hive tool box that is mandatory to going out to a bee yard. This is sad (IMHO) for all beekeepers!! JJB>Many of the studies using bees as monitors have only looked at a few >chemicals or at one hive component (honey, wax, pollen). We have looked >at almost all forms and kinds of chemicals, by all routes of entry, and at >all parts of the colony and hive. Forager bees,nurse bees, pupae, wax, >honey, pollen - all have been investigated. This is great. I wish I could say that I have been able to find all these interesting studies and papers and had committed them to memory, but I have not or if I have I was not able to translate them to something that I could use with my own meager resources in the bee yard to protect my bees or better understand what is affecting them. Some times the generalist does not get the recognition that the specialists gets, I commend you for your efforts and know that you will continue and I will make a greater effort to search out your good works. JJB>Ok, now for our summary. The main indicator is not pollen, wax, or honey >- it is the forager bee returning to the hive. And contrary to >expectations, bees pick up lots of pollutants directly from the air. >Water is another source. Pollen can be a route of entry into the hive, >but nectar is usually the least important route of entry. Chemicals that >occur as gases concentrate in field bees (at least double the level of >hive bees (again, industrial gases, this does not apply to hive >fumigants). Particulate borne chemicals pass rapidly from forager bees >throughout the hive - nurse bees, bee bread, etc. I can not say that what you say is the fact for all who look at bees and bee product contamination, but your approach is as good as my own which is dictated by my own resources. I would have NO chance to identify what is in my own hives, hive products or bees if I were restricted to your own superior mythology. I guess it all depends on what level we live on. Down here on the ground zero level the technology is not yet available to test the bees themselves let alone the air they were in yesterday or last week when they may have come into contact with a undesirable environmental contaminate such as a farm chemical. Environmental science is not rewarded by the public like advances in medical science. I know that living under high power lines is OK, Environmental Scientists hired by the electric company have said so many times, but I also know that a higher number of people who live under these same lines suffer more unexplained cancers then those who do not. I don't want to live under the environmentally safe power lines myself..I know of NO environmental scientist that live under them. JJB>The second ranked indicator (for volatile chemicals) is the air inside the >hive box. For metals and other chemicals that stick to dust particles I >would rank pollen as the second most useful indicator. In addition, by >sampling bees and pollen, we can get some idea of what the source might >be. For my own practical purposes I rank POLLEN as number uno. Much has been looked at, and much more needs to be looked at and anyone can find a lab in almost any port in the world that can look and understand what they are looking at and seeing. JJB>Wax ranks a distant third for environmental monitoring. It is a sink for >lowest in mid-summer. Because one does not know when the wax became >contaminated (could be as much as 8-10 years ago or yesterday), old wax is >not very useful. Putting strips into the hive and letting the bee draw it >out provides a means of aging the wax. Yes, all this is very true, and it is also may be true that wax can be very useful in looking for certain classes of chemicals and maybe more wax has been looked at by commercial chemists then honey and pollen put together. Heck in high school I had a chem teacher who was trying to make 100% pure chemical beeswax in his lab, a real alchemists dream. He never reached his goal after burning his garage workshop and home down two times making a car wax that he hawked from early day TV. His program followed 8 hours of viewing the TV test pattern and was watched by 100% of the audience. JJB>Honey has been shown to be useful - for example, Roger Morse did some >honey work years ago. But, compare honey to other materials or bees and >one gets a different answer. For example, metals usually occur at levels >10-100 times higher in pollen and bees than in honey. Since the Honey is the commodity that we honey producers trade in it is the prime target for casual investigation at the retail level, we don't have the same objectivity that a research chemist has, anything less would be putting the cart before the horse since our honey is in the consumers shopping cart now and we need to know and understand what is in it now. JJB>Some things do go into the nectar and honey. Spray a flower with >organophosphate insecticides, and you will see it in honey. Tritium also >appears in honey (but only at very unusual sites like federal burial sites >for radioactive materials). Yes, and if enough old ladies whizz in the pacific the increased salt will melt the polar ice and Montana will be the west coast. All this is interesting and good science but what have you found in a jar of honey you purchased to eat from your local A&P and how does what you are doing relate to what I have tried to say as a beekeeper other then the early warning all failed to hear when the canary continued to sing because the mine was an open pit...in Montana? JJB>However, compared to other colony and hive components, we continue to be >amazed at how "clean" honey remains. However, that does not mean that Yes, it is amazing to some, but also makes common sense to some of us old beekeepers who are seeing other beekeepers doing a good job using their own common sense God may have given us all and what we have picked up along the way to protect our bees from their environment. I don't know any beekeepers who goes out of their way to produce honey from the Western Azalea because it is well known that the plant can produce honey that is toxic to both bees and man. But I am 100% sure in wet years bees work the heck out of the Western Azalea, but few have ever detected it in honey and felt its effects. I also know no beekeeper who go out of their way to poison their own bees or honey with farm chemicals. JJB>Does this means we shouldn't eat honey or pollen. No! They are good >products, amazing so. But, beekeepers have to treat their product with >care. The highest levels of foreign chemicals in bee products are almost >always a result of chemicals used by beekeepers or as a consequence of >contamination introduced while handling and processing the product. I don't believe this is anymore then your own personal slant on commercial beekeeping and no more then what I have said again and again. Not the results of research you have done on retail market honey and I assume you only are referring to your own experience as I have to my own. I would not want to eat some of the honey that you have reported finding what ever in your tests, especially if it will make me glow in the dark. At the same time I can assure all that read this I can bring into any discussion, class, or courtroom, beekeepers who this year or most any year have lost more bees to the legal permitted mis-use of pesticides that exceed the total number of bees killed from day one of modern beekeeping by the chemical lobby straw man of chemical misuse by beekeepers themselves in the US... Just ten days ago I went out into a bee yard for a friend to check some bees, three truck loads, that were suffering from a quick decline. The were one day too long in the flight or drift range of a cotton field 60-90 days ago that was legally treated with a recommended pesticide product. Or the mite strips could have did it as each hive had a strip or two, I suspect it was a miticide all right but not the one the beekeeper was using. In any case of the three loads of bees, 360 hives, none will be alive come 1997, thats a fact the beekeeper has to live with. The bees will die free of mites. This one beekeeper is lucky as he has 10,000 other hives that were not in the same area, but other beekeepers were not so lucky and many of them will have some heavy fall/winter losses to discuss next spring no matter what they have done or do to correct the problem, and no doubt some will blame mites, and little they know they may be right just not the bee mites. JJB>So much for my soap-box. Hope this helps clarify some issues. Yes, all is clear, you are a professional university beekeeper and research scientist with many degrees, awards, and much experience and have a well done professional page on the internet. I have great respect for your opinions, but then I am only a lowly undereductated misunderstood tired old experienced professional commercial beekeeper who has never said my posts were anymore them my own personal opinions for what they are worth from 40+ years commercial experience. I have no ural or whats it, nothing at all to sell to anyone, no papers, no degrees, but you can call my own bbs on your own nickel at 209-826-8107 or search the net for my numerous internet references. ttul Andy- JJB>Jerry Bromenshenk >The Unviversity of Montana-Missoula >http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees >jjbmail@selway.umt.edu --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... To sway its silent chimes, else must the bee, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 22:03:00 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Aussie Beekeeping Comments: To: Rod Palmer >Hi Stan, trust Robert to tell all, just because he left Australia and went >to live and work in New Zealand. > >I am one of those beekeepers that work the Yapunyah, it is a great tree as >it can start flowering in late March and still be flowering at the end of >October. > >I guess that is nature way of providing because in the Yapunyah area, it is >the only tree producing nectar. I could talk for hours on the area and >still not tell all. I guess that 1/2 the beekeepers that work the area >have permanent plants out there. > >If you would like to know more let me know I maybe I could write of my >experience out there > >Rod Palmer >bee@gil.com.au Hi Rod. It's a pleasure to hear from you. I would be quite interested in your experiences. I am not familiar with the area, but I am not totally ignorant of the country having toured every state a bit (Queensland only on the coast) and worked for six months in a bush camp outside of Darwin (but this was all over 25 years ago). In Robert's letter he described several moves in the migration. It sounds like the Yapunyah area is a major one since it blooms for so long. How many extracting plants do you have? Do you move the equipment each time? I would be happy to correspond personally with you, but I think that other people on the bee-list might also be quite interested in hearing about beekeeping in the outback. So I am going to take the liberty of sending a copy of this reply (it includes your letter) to the bee-list. If anyone else is interested in your posting through the list we will probably hear. I would like to encourage people to write about their beekeeping around the world. I find it a really enjoyable armchair travel. We have had two beekeepers stay with us for a while, one was from Togo and the other was from Surinam (north of the Amazon). Both were used to working with African or Africanized honey bees and were pretty surprised at the gentleness of our colonies and the low level of swarming. Personally I am a most sedentary beekeeper, having not figured out how to migrate around with a herd of dairy cows. My furthest beeyards are 30 miles away, and I try to keep my yards around fifteen hives. We also cannot move hives in or out of our small island province, since we do not have either varroa or tracheal mites here. The only place bees can be imported from is Australia and New Zealand. I am looking forward to hearing more from you. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 21:04:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Thanks To All (HTML, HELP!)! I just wanted to thank everyone who responsed to my plea for help. I received a great many suggestions and appreciate every one of them. I have been working some hellacious hours at work, recently, and am finding it hard to do anything else. You can bet, however, that I will check out every suggestion, although it might take me a while. I'll keep everyone posted. Thank you, again. Regards, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 21:04:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Internet Message At 10:24 10/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >Most large stores will not sell your hiney without product liability >insurance. As far as I know it is not required, but in today's >society were people sue at a drop of a hat I would get some. > I'm not ABOUT to sell MY hiney to anyone! ;) Sorry, I couldn't let that one pass. Cheers, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 22:15:41 -0400 Reply-To: visel7@FreeMark.COM Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: OILS I think the information on oils for mites is just too new for legitimate comments. I have put wintergreen in my syrup feeders this fall. I'll let you all know in the spring... It's too big a problem to ignore though. Gerry Visel visel7@freemark.com >I have a bit of a question about the text at this site: >Specifically, the authors mention that wintergreen, >spearmint, and peppermint oils have proven successful, that >spearmint patties were propolized, but not wintergreen, >teatree, or patchouli oils. >Curiously, I didn't hear much from folks since the original >posting here. Does this mean that everyone is quietly going >out and buying the oils and seeing what will happen? Or is >this a new idea with promising preliminary results? > >Just curious- >Phil Wood >wood@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu > >> Brian R Tucker wrote: >> > > Could someone please repost the use of Essential Oils >>for the use of mite > controll. That is how much in sugar >>water or if used in grease patties how > much in there. >>And what type of oil is best (Spearmint,Wintergreen ect..) >>> Thanks >> >> The info is at this site: >> http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm >> >> -Barry >> >> -- >> Barry Birkey >> West Chicago, Illinois USA >> bbirkey@interaccess.com >> http://www.birkey.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:02:46 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping-Australian Style -Reply Dear Stan, > The best return I've heard of lately was 650 x 300kg drums from 800 >hives in one year returning a bulk honey price of AUD$1.75-$1.80/kg. >That is a truly stupendous yield. You say that is the best return. What >might an average return be, in an average year (weight of honey per >hive). >I'm just looking for a very rough guess on your part. Do you think yields >are similar for migratory beekeepers in other areas of Australia, West >Australia for example? Typical yeilds are in the order of 150 kg per hive. >This channel country is world famous (in Australia) for huge crops of >Yapunyah honey. The Yapunyah is a short eucalypt that produces large crops of a very light honey having a natural moisture content of around >15% (try and wipe that off your knife). It is a truly delicious honey. > The channel country starts about 1000 km from the coast. It is mostly >sheep of beef country with low stocking capacity and very large >properties. One of the largest in this region is 3,500 sq miles in >area. >Wow, that one property is about the same size as Prince Edward >Island, the province of Canada I happen to inhabit (admittedly the tiniest >province). >When the beekeepers are putting hives in the channel country how >many hives might they put in one yard, and how far apart would the >yards be (assuming that the area had an average to good density of >Yapunyah? Would the stocking density vary much in other eucalypts? Australian honey flows tend to be very fickled. You will have an area of flowering eucalypts covering perhaps 2-50 sq km. This area may be bordered by an area of the same eucalypt species that doesn't yeild in that year. The other classic are the species of eucalypt that flower on oneside of the tree this year and on the other side of the tree next year. Anyway, in the channel country a typical apiary is around 100 hives = a truck load. The apiaries would be about 1.5km apart but this depends on the size of the flow. I know that there was around 60,000 hives on the Yapunyah last season. >I was also curious as to the extent to which the beekeepers >themselves followed the hives, and whether they used mobile >extracting facilities. In the good old days many beekeepers used mobile extracton plants when out in the west. These days many either build a shed on the land owners property or by a small piece of land in one of the western towns and put a shed on that. The beekeepers will live in the shed while in the west. The beekeeper with the 800 hives built a shed on the property his apiaries are located on. He has a good relationship with the land owner and does a lot of favours for him, ie., bring supplies or equipment out to the property which is about 100 km from the nearest shop. Incidently the beekeeper keeps all 800 hives within 15km of his shed when in the west. That is the property is > 30km in diameter, a lot greater. Migratory beekeeping in Australia is what you make of it. Many beekeepers sleep in there own beds at night but just as many follow the flows and can be away for months (if they choose). It's interesting that many of the wives (once the kids are off their hands) travel around with the beekeepers as helpers. They often spend weeks camped beside their trucks or in sheds. The classic example of this is the founder of the Honey Corporation of Australia. After the 2nd World War he brought his new Canadian bride back to Australia and set her up in a tent out at the bees. The bees where located Sth-West of Brisbane, and thats where she spent the first 6 mths of her married life. Incidently he is now retired and still happily married to his war bride. Regards, Robert Rice. Apiculture Service Manager (Sth Island) Ministry of Agriculture New Zealand. e-mail ricer@lincoln.mqm.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 21:07:38 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin & Ann Christensen Subject: pesky bear I saw something strange today concerning bear behavior. I'd like to share it with you. In a yard of 40 hives, all the feeder pails were knocked off the hives and assembled at one end of the yard. 14 of the pails had teeth puncture holes in the exact same place on the bottom of the pails. What a delicious sweet snack for the bear. I assume it is a bear. We don't have raccoons in this area. The good news is he didn't push any of the hives over. Not yet anyway! Has anyone else noticed that a bear's sweet tooth includes more than just honey and bees? Kevin Christensen Mallaig, Alberta, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:38:03 -0400 Reply-To: visel7@FreeMark.COM Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Oils Comments: To: jamrine@wvnvm.wvnet.edu I think the information on oils for mites is just too new for legitimate comments. I have put wintergreen in my syrup feeders this fall. I'll let you all know in the spring... It's too big a problem to ignore though. I used baggie feeders for the first time (per a suggestion here) which sit on the inner cover. A baggie filled with syrup, with razor slits cut in the top after it is laid down. Neat idea. I did find one problem. After they took the first baggie of regular syrup down (very quickly) I put new bags on with the wintergreen/syrup mixture. The oil separates from the syrup and rises to the top, and (being concentrated,) kills some bees. Any ideas on how to deliver the oil in syrup without it separating??? Tanx muchly! Gerry Visel visel7@freemark.com >>I have a bit of a question about the text at this site: >>Specifically, the authors mention that wintergreen, >>spearmint, and peppermint oils have proven successful, that >>>spearmint patties were propolized, but not wintergreen, >>teatree, or patchouli oils. Curiously, I didn't hear much >>from folks since the original posting here. Does this mean >>that everyone is quietly going out and buying the oils and >>seeing what will happen? Or is this a new idea with >>promising preliminary results? >> >>Just curious- >>Phil Wood >>wood@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu >> >>> Brian R Tucker wrote: >>> > > Could someone please repost the use of Essential >>Oils >for the use of mite > controll. That is how much in >>sugar >water or if used in grease patties how > much in >>there. >And what type of oil is best (Spearmint,Wintergreen >>ect..) >> Thanks > > The info >>is at this site: > http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm > >>> -Barry > > -- > Barry Birkey > West Chicago, Illinois >>USA > bbirkey@interaccess.com > http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 22:51:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: essential oils Oil of wintergreen was used by some British commercial beekeepers earlier this century, I believe against acarine. It was in a wicked bottle placed on the hive floor in winter. Does anyone do this still? What is the supposed advantage of spearming? If these substances prove effective, all our bees will have sweet breath! Anyone for cinnamon? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David. E. Goble" Subject: Re: Bee sting hit the nerve >As a result I have lost a lot of sensation up that side of my finger tip, >and it shows no sign of improving. It doesn't prevent me doing things, but >it's a bit sensitive. Has anyone else experienced this? > Hi, When the bee stung you in the finger nerve, it created a nerve finger block, the same thing the dentist does when he/she injects the gum. There is no illness from this sting, however many stings like this can set in motion, an antigen build up in the immune system which can be quite serious. This is the commencement of chronic fatigue, chemical sensitivity, or even sero-Rh Arthritis. These effects can stop your interest in bees as these illnesses will create an allergic reaction to smoke, wax, pollen, and in some cases even honey. It is therefore very important to use smoke or similar methods to reduce the bees ability to sting. For more information on chemical sensitivity, check out our web sites at the URL of; Main site http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble Australian Chemical Trauma Alliance Inc http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble/Acta Kangaroo Island Beekeeping http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble/KiBees Dr Brian Goble PhD Toxicology Researcher & Bee Physiologist. Thanks from : goble@eastend.com.au http://www.eastend.com.au/~goble degob1@mugc.cc.monash.ed.au ( David Goble ) American Beach Kangaroo Island South Australia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 21:58:02 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Top Ventilation in the Southern US of A Hello All, Sorry for the regionality (?) of this question, but does anyone in the mid-southern US use top ventilation in the winter? What are the benefits/drawbacks? This finishes my second season on beekeeping, and I have never ventilated on the top (eg Imrie Shim). I anxiously await your responses! Steve Creasy in Maryville, Tennessee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:25:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Andy Anderson)" Subject: Re: Hive Scales Platform Scales are often available at farm sales. Sitting a hive on one permently gives a fair picture of honey flows, honey usage and in general are a fun thing to have around. Someone suggested a old pair of bath room scales and with a bottom board and a pair of contrete blocks can be calibrated fairly accurately. I use a 50 pound fish scale and a strap iron L shaped bracket to fit the hive and the weight is approx 2.2 times the reading when the front of the hive clears the ground. Maybe not the most accurate in the world but it is basic physics. I admit I keep good records amd use a tape recorder to record what is going on in my yards but in the long run it is time well spent Regards Beemanaa@aol com (Andy Anderson) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:10:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: "OFFICIAL" VIOLATIONS CONTINUE For Your Information: Copy of a letter sent to the media: Thusday Morning 10-10-96 "OFFICIAL" VIOLATIONS CONTINUE! Next spring people will be wondering, "Where are the bees?" Some of the watermelon blossoms will just dry up and fall off, without forming fruit. Others will form but will be deformed and small. People will taste the awful fruit and exclaim "The grower used too much soda!" But white seeds will tell the true story. One or two bee visits may have set a fruit, but there were not enough visits to pollinate all the seeds. The fruit was unable to fully form or fully ripen. It had nothing to do with soda. Half-pollinated fruit cannot even use the soda. North Carolina's ten million dollar watermelon crop already is short of bees. Farmers had to scramble last spring to find minimal quantities. Where are the bees? As usual, politically correct answers will predominate. "Varroa mites. That's it!" The "official" explanation will be varroa mites. But varroa mites only affect one species of bee, the honeybee. The barrenness will also be reflected by solitary bees, bumble bees. Yesterday's warm, sunny afternoon brought out the bees to their normal race to put away their winter feed. It is nearly the end - the last chance to store away the sweet energy of summer sunshine to warm the hives in winter. But yesterday a lot of bees died. -Enough bees died yesterday to affect a human generation to come. The bees died because some arrogant humans simply refuse to LOOK. And they think, as public officials, that they are above the LAW. One third of our food depends on bees. Even beef and milk would be greatly curtailed if producers had to depend solely on grasses and grains. But bee-pollinated, high-protein alfalfa, clover, trefoil and other legumes makes much of our beef and milk production possible. I watched K&K, Inc. planes leave the Lumberton airport with a certain sadness in my heart. I know that they were about to spray a lethal mist that would, along with the mosquitoes, also drop the bees that were out visiting the goldenrod. Most of the bees who received a tiny droplet would not even make it home to the nest or hive. All they had to do to protect those bees was to WATCH and see when they are visiting flowers. But that is inconvenient. They refuse to do so. Applications could be done in the early morning. The bees are not out then. Or, as many states do; they could be done at night. The bees are not out then. But application on a warm, sunny afternoon? That will drop millions of our pollinators. Malathion label directions forbid application while bees are "foraging" in the application area. Apparently that concept is too complex for our mosquito control people. So they spray away, in complete violation. I had told K&K officials, and I had told North Carolina officials that bees were foraging during the scheduled application times. Bees were vigorously visiting goldenrod and aster until almost 6 pm yesterday. But they ignore me. And they refuse to look for themselves. Does this not sound like a wilful violation? Wilful violations are criminal misuse. The people involved should be arrested! They try to evade the label directions by demanding that beekeepers "protect" the bees. But the label directions are to protect an environmental resource; they do not refer only to kept bees. I am a beekeeper who pollinates crops for a living. I have never lost anywhere near as many bees from varroa mites as from pesticide misuse. Varroa mites have killed off wild bees, but are easily controlled by beekeepers. Pesticide misuse has put me in poverty, over and over again. After Hurricane Hugo, illegal application stripped away the bees that were outside the hives. I fed sugar syrup, trying to stimulate the queens to lay more eggs, to make replacement bees. It was too late; too cold; the queens refused to go against nature, and the tiny hives died en masse in the first cold winter weather. The following spring I had few bees, and a lot of empty equipment. I scrambled to find bees to fill up my hives. My growers were calling for their pollination bees, and I just did not have enough. It nearly sunk my business. Please call your public officials and demand that they obey the law. Require them to LOOK to see when bees are out visiting flowers, and adjust application times accordingly. We must protect the food supply for our children and grandchildren. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:32:15 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Hive Scales In-Reply-To: <961010062510_123254569@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "<@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU:owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU>" at Oct 10, 96 06:25:14 am Some of the bee supply firms sell a simple hive scale. An arm extends up by the side of the hive, as the hive increases in weight, the arm moves across an arc (kind of like a sundial) and the weight can be read. Relatively inexpensive, but probably as accurate as bathroom scales, which we found to be poor out-of-doors. The mechanical ones rust up, the electronic ones fail rapidly. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:47:38 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Miticides minus tirades REGARDING Miticides minus tirades Under the post "RE>More Mavrik pontification" Andy Nachbaur (10/9) delivered a typical longwinded blast at Jerry Bromenshenk, a respected apicultural researcher at the University of Montana-Missoula, which included the following segment on Apistan: I even hesitate to comment on this section because of the risk of being included in the Apistan "camp", but here goes. A lot of new beekeepers look to the BEE-L for advice, and in these days of varroa mites, good advice is crucial to the very life of their bees. Confusion here is definitely counterproductive, and confusion seems to be the very point of the quote above. The so-called "fact" referred to in the first sentence is obviously not a fact at all, but a prelude to a tirade. Lots of things kill bees: pesticides, diseases, predators, and, yes, parasites such as mites do as well. We must defend against all of them. Apistan today is the only registered miticide on the market, has been specifically formulated to work in the hive environment, and *is* effective when used as directed. This is not to say that it is the only thing that works - the essential oil methods are very intriguing and may well be an alternative. I plan to try this as well this winter in some, at least, of my hives. But there is no grand conspiracy out there, no devious collaboration between the Apistan commercial pipeline and the scientific investigators. It is not helpful to anyone to make these wild charges (other wild charges also abound in the aforementioned post). Why don't we all just try to be helpful to others here - we already have enough problems. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:40:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Hive scales REGARDING RE>Hive scales Just a note on my experiences with scales. I bought a heavy duty hanging spring scale and attached a cleat to the back of the bottom boards of the hives. I lift the back of the hive and record the weight for tracking winter weight loss. It would be possible to do the same for weight gain during the honey flow, I suppose, if the scale and I were strong enough (neither is). This will, of course, not give the actual weight, but for my purpose the relative weights are good enough. The major problem I have here in the north with this sort of procedure is that the bottom boards often freeze to the ground. I need to take along a prybar and just hope my bottom boards are good and strong. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Bloom REGARDING RE>Bloom Ann Dougherty wrote (10/8/96): As far as I know, bloom is an intrinsic property of beeswax. From an esthetic point of view it looks awful, changing a bright pretty object into something that looks like it was brought up from an ancient shipwreck. I get a spray designed for candles and other craft objects and spray my candles about a day after I dip or pour them. It keeps bloom away because it protects the beeswax from the air. Purists probably will object, because the candle is now no longer pure beeswax, but I also put in stearic acid to retard excessive wax melting, as well as colors and scents. Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:02:46 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: ENOUGH on Maverick!!! Dear Readers, Forgive the following venting behavior. Maybe I am the only one who is getting tired of deleting Maverick posts, but I doubt it. I am new to beekeeping, and joined this list to get other beekeepers ideas on practical beekeeping practices. There is much more found here, thankfully, and I have read with great interest these topics. It seems this Maverick debate has stirred several to unparalleled levels of anger/exasperation. The facts seem to be these: 1) Maverick is not labeled, nor intended for use in beehives. 2) Persons who use it for this purpose are breaking the law, and bad for beekeeping in general. Enough said. I cannot believe that posts continue at the rate and of the length that I have seen of late. Several posts are directed at one individual from another. It seems to me that direct communication would be much better in these instances. Please don't misunderstand. I condemn the use of Maverick as much as anyone. It is bad for beekeeping. Further beating of this dead horse wastes the time of those who would like to learn more ACCEPTED beekeeping practices, and those who have such a wealth of information to share. It is a waste to expend so much energy on this topic, when more constructive subjects are available. If there is so much interest, I suggest someone start a MAVERICK list and leave this to beekeeping alone. I hope I have not offended anyone, this is not my intent. Lets just move on. Steve Creasy in Maryville, Tennessee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:54:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: black paint Someone on the list mentioned a black paint that is used on the wax melted. Could someone reply to my E-mail. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:16:35 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Enough on Maverick "Steven A. Creasy" posts Subject: ENOUGH on Maverick!!! > ... I suggest someone start a MAVERICK list.... > Hey, I LOVED that show! But I never really figured out whether I liked Bart or Bret the best. As far as MAVRIK goes, I guess that horse has been beaten quite a lot, but suspect it ain't dead yet. Aaron Morrris - thinking I watched too much TV as a kid! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:19:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: black paint Could someone repeat the special black paint,used on the wax melter? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:28:40 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: black paint black paint - should be used on the outside, white paint on the inside. black paint on the outside - probably anything that can stand the heat. engine block or fireplace paint comes to mind same thinking for the white paint on the inside. (\ John /) {|||8- in -8|||} (/ Santa Cruz \) California ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:43:42 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Miticides minus tirades In-Reply-To: from "Ted Fischer" at Oct 10, 96 10:47:38 am Hi: I appreciated Ted's defense of our activities. Despite Andy's implications, we have no connection, no have we ever conducted any research for the manufacturer or distributors of Apistan. Personally, I don't like the use of any chemical in the hive - but until something better comes along, Apistan is about all that we have. Using cotton balls and cardboard and all kinds of untested ways of releasing chemicals in the hives is playing with dynamite. Despite Andy's claims, the residue chemistry work has not been done for these methods - whether one gets any kind of controlled release or not is unknown. At least the Apistan strip was tested and the release dynamics followed and documented. My extensive comments on chemicals were not intended to display our superior facilities or talent. I could care less about degrees, etc. Some of the best information that I have about bees came from people without degrees. As an old Montana dairy and feedlot cattle farmer, I know where most of my real education occurred. What I am saying is that we have probably looked at more types of chemicals in more forms and routes of entry than anyone else (after 22 yrs we have looked at tens of thousands of samples). We also have some of the best equipment around for doing this. Therefore, we have the hard data, which has been quality assurred via independent audits. I am not guessing or speculating, we have the world's most extensive database about chemicals and their dynamics inside a beehive. Fact, not speculation or opinion. We also do not pretend to be the watchdog of the potential for consumption of toxic materials in honey or pollen. Our clients have another interest, how to effectively and at the lowest cost identify areas where the use of hazardous chemicals has or may lead to ecological damage or threaten human health. Granted, our research is not inexpensive, but the resultant methods are far less expensive than traditional methods. For example, it cost EPA and the industry in the Anaconda smelter area over $40 million analyzing yet another soil sample. It took CDC three years longer than us to find an area where kids were exposed to too much arsenic and lead. Our local beekeeper first found that area when his bees died. Our analysis confirmed the cause of the beekills. The bees pointed to the area of the valley where the real problem was, the $40 million was mainly spent in the wrong end of the valley. None of our research has ever been funded by traditional sources. All of our work has been the result of competitive contracts and grants with agencies and industries that do not typically fund bee research. Somehow, I don't understand the antagonism and dislike for "scientists" expressed by some beekeepers. I have the unmost respect for anyone who enjoys bees and even more so for anyone struggling to make a living from beekeeping. Seems to me we are all trying to work towards the common good for the industry. Also seems like the same people who express a distrust of scientists are the same ones who complain that we publish in obscure journals and never share our information. Enough of this tirade. End of discussion from my end. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:38:42 -0700 Reply-To: jsmaus@execpc.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Maus Organization: Exec-PC Subject: Re: oil and sugar In regards to mixing grease patties: Just melt your vegetable shortening (solidified form) on the stove at low heat until its liquid, meanwhile while its melting mix the sugar and TM while its dry to achieve a uniform mix then add the oil if its to hot let it cool a bit it will stay liquid until it totally cools down (several hours or overnight) you may also add any essential oils to the liquified grease before adding it to the sugar. I have done it this way for several years and it IS the EASIEST. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:31:11 CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ray Nabors Subject: Re[2]: Follower boards Dear reader, The easiest method of making a follower board is to buy 1 X and cut it to length. I know, I am using many of these at the moment. I like follower boards because they make hive inspection simple. Each hive should have only 1. I did say 1 and only 1. The board is cut to the size of the frame from end bar to end bar. Standard lumber is used. Nails properly placed in each end will suspend the board without the need to make any cuts except to length. The board comes out first when you inspect the bees. Set the board aside and examine each frame. The first frame out of the hive goes where the follower board was. Place each inspected frame in until you have gone completely through the hive box. Replace the follower board on the other side of the frames. That is why we call it a follwer board, it follows the frames back into the hive. A 1 X 6 works for shallow boxes, a 1X8 for mediums and a 1 X 10 for deeps. The prospect of using two of these boards that are 3/8 inch thick is unnecessary and defeats the purpose which is to make hive inspection more quick and easy. Only 1 is needed and that is all you should use. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Follower boards Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at internet-ext Date: 10/8/96 5:20 PM In Eugene Killion's HONEY IN THE COMB he gives plans for making solid durable follower boards. The major difficulty would be in finding 3/8" stock to make them from. Another description I once saw used 3/8" masonite, the size of a frame, with a strip of sheet metal bent over the top (the metal was the length of a top bar). There were 4 rivets popped thru the metal holding it securely to the board. The "ears" of the follower board were formed by bending under the sheet metal on each end (where it juts past the edge of the board). I've not made any like this but it seems straightforward. An old-timer once suggested to me the idea of manufacturing quality follower boards. They are never offered by suppliers or in the journals. Someone could no doubt make a nice little business of it, it they could make them in large quanitities and offer to ship them. I think they'd be popular. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:41:30 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: OILS >Phil Wood wrote on Essential Oils. >Curiously, I didn't hear much from folks since the original posting >here. Does this mean that everyone is quietly going out and buying the >oils and seeing what will happen? >Or is this a new idea with promising preliminary results? I don't think anything is amiss. The list seems to be very 'Ho Hmm' regarding new innovations I said at the time things seem to go down like lead balloons. It will only be when their favourite academic or extension officer has done all the testings allover again that they might condiscend to try it out. It would appear that most bee keepers do not like change. One even told me my ideas couldn't be any good, because no body had thought of it before me!!!! Wait and see, the cry will go up 'it doesn't work' only because some one isn't using it properly!! But thats another post!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:43:22 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Thinking Out Loud -- Long Range Trends & Plans David Green wrote > > An unknown is the US - Canada situation. With varroa moving into Canada, >there is less reason for the border closure, and there is some pressure for a >reopening of the border. Our Canadian friends may be able to comment better >on the possibility. > The only people I can find who want the border opened are commercial bee keepers who based their business on killing their bees every winter, then re-starting again in the spring with new packages. Knowing Dave's views on the bees good health (from the spraying controversy) I don't believe he would encourage the border opening for these people, to allow them to commit this obscenity every year!! It is not just the influx of Varroa. I strongly agree with the closure. It has allowed us time to prepare for the onslaught. We now have bred T-mite resistant queens. We have an alternative in Formic acid, and most if not all are ready. There is one main area of concern, Africanized bees. While packages are kept out, then the chances are we can keep our gene pool clean, and that is possibly our strongest argument for keeping the border closed. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:55:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: OILS Gerry Visel wrote >I think the information on oils for mites is just too new for >legitimate comments. I have put wintergreen in my syrup >feeders this fall. I'll let you all know in the spring... >It's too big a problem to ignore though. I for one am glad to see you trying the new ideas. But, and it's a big but. Dr. Amrine said quite categorically that essential oils will not work if just used in the hive top feeder, it needs to be fed at the entrance. He states I quote "In all cases of successful treatments, the essential oils were delivered to the brood nest of the treated colonies. The importance of this last observation can not be overemphasized" He then goes on to explain in great detail as to why. Gerry Visel continued with >I did find one problem. After they took the first baggie of >regular syrup down (very quickly) I put new bags on with the >wintergreen/syrup mixture. The oil separates from the syrup >and rises to the top, and (being concentrated,) kills some >bees. > >Any ideas on how to deliver the oil in syrup without it >separating??? Again Dr.Amrine explained to add the oil use hot water in the syrup mixing. The old adage 'Oil and water do not mix' should be remembered, it will take time for the surface viscosity to break down and mix throughly. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:16:47 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: OILS Excuse me, Mr. Eyre, but please don't make assumptions concerning the interest or lack of interest of beekeepers on this list. I printed the lengthy information on essential oil studies and shared it with my local beekeeping supply store so that they might be both better informed and an additional source of such information for customers who are not yet on line. I did not chose to enter the online discussion, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested or "ho hum" as you describe me. Some of us DO quietly go out and experiment. I am an organic gardener and very supportive of any methods for reducing unwanted bee parasites which do not contaminate the environment, the bees or me. However, mites are such a widespread threat that it is wise to be cautious concerning untried cures. I commend those who do some experimentation on their own and watch for results from further studies. I would ask that you not make sweeping generalizations concerning a worldwide network of people you don't know. At 04:41 PM 10/10/96 -0400, you wrote: >>Phil Wood wrote on Essential Oils. > >>Curiously, I didn't hear much from folks since the original posting >>here. Does this mean that everyone is quietly going out and buying the >>oils and seeing what will happen? >>Or is this a new idea with promising preliminary results? > >I don't think anything is amiss. The list seems to be very 'Ho Hmm' >regarding new innovations I said at the time things seem to go down like >lead balloons. It will only be when their favourite academic or extension >officer has done all the testings allover again that they might condiscend >to try it out. It would appear that most bee keepers do not like change. >One even told me my ideas couldn't be any good, because no body had thought >of it before me!!!! > Wait and see, the cry will go up 'it doesn't work' only because some >one isn't using it properly!! But thats another post!! > > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * > * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * > * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * > * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * > **************************************************** > Marcia Sinclair Writer & Editor Gresham, Oregon wordland@mail.aracnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:41:49 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: OILS In-Reply-To: <199610102102.RAA08962@segwun.muskoka.net> from "David Eyre" at Oct 10, 96 04:55:07 pm A thought on oils - and again I will beat a dead horse about using honey when foreign materials are used in the hive - but at least most of the oils are things we consume in other ways - oil and water do not mix, but oils and oils do. Several years ago, we tried to feed bees PCBs, the oils in old electric transformers. Every bee we have ever tested had a trace of PCB. Put PCB in water, it floats to the surface, same in syrup. And the bees seemed to be able to avoid it. Mix it in a grease patty, went right in, and the bees took it just like a TM patty. Don't know wheter they eat because they like it or want to get rid of it, but they got the dose. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 00:08:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Top Ventilation in the Southern US of A In a message dated 96-10-10 02:28:48 EDT, screasy@juno.com (Steven A. Creasy) writes: << Sorry for the regionality (?) of this question, but does anyone in the mid-southern US use top ventilation in the winter? What are the benefits/drawbacks? This finishes my second season on beekeeping, and I have never ventilated on the top (eg Imrie Shim). I anxiously await your responses! Steve Creasy in Maryville, Tennessee>> YES!! I believe we are warmer than you in winter, but I wouldn't even think of keeping the hives tight over winter. Not only does it help them ventilate to remove moisture (remember heat rises, carrying moisture with it), but it can well save the bees in severe weather. If we get any snow at all here, it is apt to be in the late winter or spring, and it's apt to be very wet snow. One such spring storm cost me a number of hives from suffocation. They were in new, tight equipment, and the snow/rain/sleet/slop piled up above the entrance and froze hard overnight. Normally snow is quite permeable by air, but this wasn't, and some of the nicest hives died. Weaker hives, as well as those in ragged, holey equipment, were fine. It taught me a lesson. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:27:43 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sam & Cyndi Ortega Subject: Test, please ignore Test, Please ignore ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 00:24:33 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: OILS and Baggie Feeders David and all, I appreciate the comments on using essential oils on the mites. We all gotta learn how to lick this bugger. I meant my comments to be about the baggie feeder, and you caught me not following the directions on the oils... Thanks. I have a few more comments on the baggie feeders, based on one use, then one replacement after they sucked down the first one: (Read "novice user...") They are a cute way to deliver syrup to the bees, and they did drain the first one _very_ fast, but there are some drawbacks: 1. Don't overfill the bags. Three fourths full, max. (When laid down, the top should not bow upward any.) Fuller than this will cause the syrup to immediately drain out to this level... If your hives are slanted forward, put the baggie forward also to catch the spills. 2. With the baggie in place on the inner cover or top bars and slit with a razor, it is then immoveable (until it is taken down by the bees) without spilling the syrup. Hive inspections stop til then. (I had one hive that didn't take any down. I somehow gotta gingerly remove the inner cover and...) With jars or can feeders, you can move the feeder easier. 3. The bags must be replaced at each "refill." (You can't refill them once they are slit.) I dislike the ecology of this; we gotta save the plastic trees too! Comments? Other experience with this type feeder? Maybe I ain't doing it right. Thanx muchly! Gerry Visel Visel7@Juno.com (new, and free email! (Check out www.juno.com.)) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 00:24:33 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: OILS I think the info on oils is too new yet to be widely used and accepted. I just tried it for the first time. I think most people are in the same boat... Gerry Visel Visel7@Juno.com On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:41:30 -0400 David Eyre writes: >>Phil Wood wrote on Essential Oils. > >>Curiously, I didn't hear much from folks since the original posting >>here. Does this mean that everyone is quietly going out and buying >the >>oils and seeing what will happen? >>Or is this a new idea with promising preliminary results? > >I don't think anything is amiss. The list seems to be very 'Ho Hmm' >regarding new innovations I said at the time things seem to go down >like >lead balloons. It will only be when their favourite academic or >extension >officer has done all the testings allover again that they might >condiscend >to try it out. It would appear that most bee keepers do not like >change. >One even told me my ideas couldn't be any good, because no body had >thought >of it before me!!!! > Wait and see, the cry will go up 'it doesn't work' only >because some >one isn't using it properly!! But thats another post!! > > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * > * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * > * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * > * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * > **************************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:29:23 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GAVIN JOHNSTON Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: agree I agree with Steve (Creasy). It gets mighty boring reading the same argument especially if it is repeated. We must realise that on certain issues, people will always have different views that won't change. Cheers all Gavin +-----------------------------------+ | I walked in through the open door | | couldn't believe what I saw | | They were all around me | | Epeleptics to a banjo melody. | | GAVIN JOHNSTON | | G93J2616@WARTHOG.RU.AC.ZA | +-----------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:02:47 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Alexander Subject: Re: oil and sugar Comments: To: Jim Maus In-Reply-To: <325D7AF2.2403@execpc.com> On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Jim Maus wrote: > In regards to mixing grease patties: > Just melt your vegetable shortening (solidified form) > on the stove at low heat until its liquid, meanwhile > while its melting mix the sugar and TM while its dry > to achieve a uniform mix then add the oil if its to hot > let it cool a bit it will stay liquid until it totally > cools down (several hours or overnight) you may also > add any essential oils to the liquified grease before > adding it to the sugar. I have done it this way for several > years and it IS the EASIEST. > i think that you are in danger of distroying the TM with the heat. TM must be kept cool to maintain its effectiveness. dave kg7zq ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:05:37 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Jurgens Subject: oils Dear Readers: I have the following question that I hope someone can answer. In the province of Manitoba, we have very cold winters. It is common to have -40 c weather for long periods at at time. We wrap our bees in plastic wraps filled with R12 insulation. We have had great results and very few winter loses, using this method for the past 5 years. My question is: Is there going to be enough ventilation in the colony to use the oil and grease patties without harming the bees. We made up only 25 patties to try this winter.We noticed that when we made the patties using the suggested formula that the smell was quite strong, using pathuala oil. Are the bees going to put up with this for 5 months being wrapped in plastic wraps.After the snow gets deep the only source of ventilation will be there top hole in the escape board. Can anyone advise. Dave http://www.common.net/~jurgensd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:13:47 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Moving Baggie Feeders >2. With the baggie in place on the inner cover or top bars and slit with >a razor, it is then immoveable (until it is taken down by the bees) >without spilling the syrup. Hive inspections stop til then. (I had one >hive that didn't take any down. I somehow gotta gingerly remove the inner >cover and...) With jars or can feeders, you can move the feeder easier. One way to permit removal of the feeder is to place in on a bee escape. The solid frame kind. Another way is to contruct a baggie feeder frame. I built some for my hives. The specification - 3 1/2" x 16 1/4" x 19 7/8". I tacked a 3/4" ledge around the inside and then stapled 1/2" wire screen to the ledge. I added a cross member below and another above rotated 90 degrees to provide support. Roughly: ____________________________ |\ |\ | \ | \ | \________________________| \ | |............::..........| | | |............::..........| | | |............::..........| | | |............::..........| | | |............::..........| | | |========================| | | |............::..........| | | |............::..........| | | |............::..........| | |__|____________::__________| | \ \ | \ \ | \___________________________\| With care the feeder box can be removed with only minor dripping. The 3 1/2" depth can be adjusted based on the size of the baggie and how full you fill it. One warning, fill the bags at the hive. I just invert a 64 oz plastic bottle with the bag over the top. No spills so far. It would be an awful sticky mess to have the zipper give way in the kitchen. Sometimes the economy brands zipper leaks at the corner. With a 2:1 syrup it is less of a problem. The feeder box can double as dead air space to absorb moisture be filling it with straw or some other filler for winter. Jim Moore moore@aiag.enet.dec.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:32:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ronald E Baker Subject: Hive Weight In an effort to make sure my colonies have enough honey going into the winter, I am concerned about hive weight. I am interested in learning more about the ratio of the weight of honey in a hive and the overall weight of the hive. For example, what is the rough overall weight of a standard, 2-brood chamber, hive which contains 100 lbs of honey? Thank you for your comments. Ronald E Baker baker@mail.multiverse.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:15:14 EST5EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Allen G. Meek" Organization: Radiation Oncology SUNY Stony Brook Subject: Apistan residue As a new hobby beekeeper I have questions about Apistan. Does it work as a "fumigant" or does it work by "rubbing off" on bees that pass by? By the former mechanism, what is the danger of Apistan residue (after pulling the strips)--if there is any-- in the two bottom deeps contaminating the honey supers? By the latter mechanism, can the bees transport Apistan on their bodies to the honey supers? Also might the bees move potentially "contaminated" honey from the bottom deeps to the honey supers, eg to make more room for brood or pollen? Finally, what are the health dangers of Apistan--they are not described on the packaging. -Allen G. Meek Allen G. Meek Department of Radiation Oncology University Hospital SUNY Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY 11794-7028 InterNet: AMEEK@radonc.som.sunysb.edu Phone: (516)444-7770 Fax: (516)689-8801 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:19:08 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Caroline Stoddart of AGF 487-9353 Subject: Re: Aussie Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <199610100103.WAA28846@bud.peinet.pe.ca> Hello Rod and Hello Stan Please keep your Australian/migratory beekeeping "on" the list, it is a pleasant breath of fresh (foreign) air. Also during our winter it is very pleasant to read about your summer. Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:26:02 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: oils, syrup, and Manitoba winters In-Reply-To: <199610111306.IAA18209@prime.common.net> On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Dave Jurgens wrote: > My question is: > Is there going to be enough ventilation in the colony > to use the oil and grease patties without harming the bees. We made up only > 25 patties to try this winter.We noticed that when we made the patties > using the suggested formula that the smell was quite strong, using pathuala > oil. Are the bees going to put up with this for 5 months being wrapped in > plastic wraps.After the snow gets deep the only source of ventilation will > be there top hole in the escape board. If menthol is not effective below 20 C, i'd imagine that neither would any other essential oil that needs to volitilize (unless of course it some how moved around with the core of the cluster). The European scientists who have evaluated the Italian thymol-based varroacide APILIFE VAR, found the product's effacacy really tailed off in cooler weather. I don't see there being too much of a problem adding oil to syrup.Just use an emulsifier like tween 20. The problem with fiddling around with different emulsifiers and formulations though is that it is difficult to know what effects they will have on the bees, the honey, and the beekeeper. Formic acid is a natural product, but it is by no means safe unless used in a very specific way, using special precautions. Used in the wrong way may result in queen loss, worker loss, and damage to the beekeepers lungs, eyes, and skin. There are some compounds in mints that are known sterilants of spider mites. I have seen no data that looks at the effect of mints on the fertility of queens though, and even though a product looks like it may be killing the mites, the brood pattern may suffer. Use caution until better data is available. There may be consequences to the size of your crop, its purity, and your personal safety. Cheers, Adony ######################################## *** Adony Melathopoulos **************** ***** Center for Pest Management ******* ******** Simon Fraser University ******* *********** Burnaby, British Coumbia *** ************** CANADA ****************** ######################################## e-mail : melathop@sfu.ca tel : (604) 291-4163 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 18:15:04 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: oils, syrup, and Manitoba winters > On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Dave Jurgens wrote: > If menthol is not effective below 20 C, i'd imagine that neither > would any other essential oil that needs to volitilize (unless of > course it some how moved around with the core of the cluster). The > European scientists who have evaluated the Italian thymol-based > varroacide APILIFE VAR, found the product's effacacy really tailed > off in cooler weather. I used Apilife Var this Spring, to try to reduce the number of mites that would build up during the season. The following numbers are daily mite knockdown figures for 50 days from one colony that received a single (ie. half treatment) in April. This Spring was judged cool by local folk, the frost nearly ruined my early potatoes! I suppose the daily min/max temperatures would have been something like 2-13C. 31, 24, 37, 7, 12, 14, 25, 11, 26, 42, 22, 18, 7, 7, 13, 6, 10, 11, 13, 7, 14, 10, 4, 4, 3, 5, 2, 5, 1, 7, 10, 4, 3, 1, 2, 1, 3, 1, 3, 0, 4, 3, 3, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0. The reason that the colony had so many mites this early in the year is that it was very heavily infested last year, in fact I counted/estimated a drop of more than 13,000 mites last Autumn (or 'Fall' as some of us would call it). I am suprised that the colony survived. I leave you to draw your own conclusions, but my guess is that the treatment is effective at lowish temperatures, but takes longer to take effect. In my experience ApiLife Var - even in a warm British Summer (is there such a thing?) - takes much longer to produce results than Apistan or Bayvarol, which give something like 80% knockdown in a couple of days but does this matter? In passing, I have no arguments with the use of Apistan but the Sandoz/Zoecon respondent, was perhaps wrong in suggesting that S/Z are unique in researching/paying for licensing Varroacides. Apistan is not licensed in the UK at the moment, but we have a similar product from Bayer. Also, recently a new treatment was announced by a French company, called Apivar (NOT to be confused with ApiLife Var), based on Amitraz. Best wishes Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:03:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Apistan residue snip/..., can >the bees transport Apistan on their bodies to the honey supers? Also >might the bees move potentially "contaminated" honey from the bottom >deeps to the honey supers, eg to make more room for brood or pollen? >Finally, what are the health dangers of Apistan--they are not >described on the packaging. > > -Allen G. Meek > > >Allen G. Meek >Department of Radiation Oncology >University Hospital >SUNY Stony Brook >Stony Brook, NY 11794-7028 > >InterNet: AMEEK@radonc.som.sunysb.edu >Phone: (516)444-7770 >Fax: (516)689-8801 These are certainly important questions. In fact, much or most nectar collected during a honey flow is deposited in the brood combs before being "moved up" so a large portion of the honey going into the supers has been in contact with brood cells. If the wax in the brood chamber is absorbing any of the fluvalinate, then it would stand to reason that a portion of the incoming crop is coming in contact with the chemical. I've been told by others on the BEE-L that the fluvalinate breaks down rapidly and isn't likely to last in honey. Can anyone comment further? The bees are constantly moving food around in the hive: in springtime they will move excess stores up as the brood nest expands. Some probably ends up in supers. There's no way to prevent this. So why do they recommend using the apistan only when supers are off? I mean, would it really make a difference after all? Has research borne any of this out? Thanks for any info...J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:14:10 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Permadent Hello All, A while back, someone on the list stated that they used "Permadent" plastic foundation. I would be very interested in telephone/address/price information if someone has that info available. Thanks Steve Creasy- in Maryville, Tennessee Screasy@juno.com (yes, I too use the best-priced E-Mail software in the world! see www.juno.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:14:53 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: oil and sugar >On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Jim Maus wrote: >> while its melting mix the sugar and TM while its dry >> to achieve a uniform mix then add the oil if its to hot >> let it cool a bit it will stay liquid until it totally >> cools down (several hours or overnight) you may also >> add any essential oils to the liquified grease before >> adding it to the sugar. I have done it this way for several >> years and it IS the EASIEST. >> > David Alexander wrote >i think that you are in danger of distroying the TM with the >heat. TM must be kept cool to maintain its effectiveness. I question the validity of that statement! I know it is not advisable to add to liquid sugar syrup as it won't last as long, but HEAT? Anyone wish to comment? Must compliment Jim, his method of mixing patties is the slickest yet!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:15:01 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Carniolans I would like to backtrack a few days to a post of Garrett Dodds dated Mon. 7th Oct in which Garrett wrote. > >I have tried Italians and Buckfast along side of the NWC's. The Italians >scare me too much, they brood up and form large colonies early and will >starve themselves if the are not monitored. The Buckfast that is available >in this country is so crossed bred with the Italians that their is not much >difference in the two. The Buckfast has been maintained be Natural Matings >in a predominantly Italian area in Texas for years, no way to control the >matings of the queens Some time ago I answered another post on similar lines regarding Buckfast breeding. If you realy want to try the best of 'Buckfast' then you should look to Ontario. There are 3 Buckfast breeders with ISOLATED mating yards, who are licenced by Buckfast Abbey and who are the only ones allowed to use the pre-fix "Buckfast". I am not one of them, but would be prepared to post the addresses if requested. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:34:14 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Hive Weight Ronald E Baker wrote: In an effort to make sure my colonies have enough honey going into the winter, I am concerned about hive weight. A way to judge hive weight is to try to lift the hive using one of the handholds on the back. If the hive can be lifted (if it moves when one hand lifts), it probably doesn't have enough food for the winter. Hives that have a deep hive body filled with honey are heavy. Tim Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:15:25 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Hive Scales Weighing beehives ----------------- Some years ago I asked an engineering friend how *he* would weigh a beehive. I expected some sort of tripod lifting arrangement with scale and lever. Instead, he thought about 10 seconds and said "Using a plastic wine bag!". Took him the best part of an hour to explain it to me and convince me it would work. OK, here goes: cheapish wine in NZ comes in 3 or 4 liter cardboard 'casks', with plastic bag with valve out the side. The bags, once empty (ahem...) are in fact flat in construction - find one that is pretty big. Small bag means greater accuracy, but harder to measure (hence less accurate, if you see what I mean). Best I ever made was with a commercial sized bag that was almost the same size as the inside of a bee box. Build the floor arrangement. Basically, a flat base with a telescoping lid that fits over it. Hole cut in base to accommodate the valve arrangement of the bag. Take out the 'guts' of the valve, and glue 10mm diameter plastic tube about 800mm long into it. I added a 20mm x 50mm piece of timber, fixed to the telescoping lid thing with a hinge, to support the plastic tube up the side of where the hive will sit. Fit it all together, put it under a hive. Now, here's the part I couldn't really figure: how much water would you have to pour into the tube in order to lift the hive off the base? Hardly any! After only a bit, water starts to 'back up' the tube to a certain height, then doesn't come up any further! If you keep pouring water, the hive will lift higher, but the distance from bottom of hive to top of water in the plastic tube remains constant. The proper name for this thing is a manometer. If you can't get it from this description, go to a good engineering book to get the concept. By pouring only a little bit of water into the tube, the telescoping lid thing 'lifts' off the base, and the hive is floating on a waterbed type thing. The height of the column of water can be converted into the weight of the hive! The height of water is the 'head'. Imagine a column of water the same size as the plastic bag, and as tall as the head. The weight of that water would be equal to the weight of the hive. So you can calibrate a scale up beside the plastic tube to give hive weight. Weight of hive (gm) = Area of bag (cm2) x Height of water in column (cm) x 1 gm/cm3 (weight of cubic cm of water). For the bag size I used (the only variable), it worked out that each kg of hive weight equated to 9.7mm of water height in the column. It meant you could go some pretty accurate weighing, but the cost of the thing was just about nothing. You *might* want help drinking all the wine... I realise this description is pretty confusing! When I found my file on this, I found about three starts of articles I began more than a decade ago, each time giving up when it just didn't sound right! I guess that is one reason I like BEE-L - it doesn't have to spot on first time... I've done a very crude drawing of it that you can get by sending a message to: NICKW@WAVE.CO.NZ (Don't just reply to this - it would go to the whole list...) and in the Subject: line, put: SEND SCALES That will get you a .GIF format graphic 'attached' to the reply. You'll have to figure how to extract and view it! That might be worth more than the nearly thousand words above! When I got to my files, I also found all the various articles I had collected over the years. I think I must have some more, as I remember one in French that I *think* predated this one by about 20 years or so! If anyone has other hive scale references, I'd appreciate them! Nick Wallingford nickw@wave.co.nz ------------------------------------ Busker, L.H. The WATDIT hive stand. Gleanings in Bee Culture. Sept 1970 pp 521-525. Hive stand with built in bathroom scales under back of hive (WATDIT stands for What Are They Doing In There). Bryan, Ernie. If there is a will there is a weigh. Gleanings in Bee Culture (?). April 1977 page 161. Bathroom scales inserted into frame below hive. Scales not permanently fixed. Shaw, F.R. An improved device for weighing colonies. American Bee Journal 96(8):322. 1956. Uses spring scale with two people lifting hive off the ground using pipe across hive. Hive supported on sides and back. Owens, C.D. New hive scale for use by one man. American Bee Journal 98(4):140. 1958. Two wheeled cart with forks. Foot operated pedal with 4:1 advantage used to lift hive. Commercial hydraulic-compression unit between lifting lever and moving frame to read weight. Harding, J.P. A simple method of weighing a hive. Bee World 43(2):40-41. 1962. Pipe inserted into permanent stand below hive. Hive lifted from sides using spring balance. Total is sum of two sides weight times two. Al-Tikrity, W.S., Hillmann, R.C., Benton, Dr A.W., Clarke, W.W. Jr. Three methods for weighting honey-bee colonies in the laboratory and field. American Bee Journal 111(4):143-145. 1971. Modified pickup truck hive loader method: boom off truck using block and tackle and hanging spring scale. Lifting method: one person on each end of rod, lifting hive with hanging spring scale. Leverage-lift method: Wooden bar is pushed down, pulling wire cable to lift hive in building. Bell, Roland. My homemade hive scale. American Bee Journal February 1979: 97. Uses screen door spring, piece of baling wire, short chain and three iron straps. Long bar (beam) suspended at the one foot mark, weight can be lifted from the short end when long end is pressed down at 2 to 1, 3 to 1, etc. Hofmann, Chas. S. Wintering its in's and out's. American Bee Journal 105(1):6-8. 1965. Telescoping device used to lift back of hive. Pointer moves up given distance before hive lifts off ground, indicating weight. Anonymous. Introducing hive monitor(tm) weighing base, a revolutionary advance in hive management. Gleanings in Bee Culture 105(4):138. 1977. Base to sit hive on, mirrored scale with pointer. Claims accurate readings to within 1/2 pound. Anonymous. Fuers bienenhaus. Chr. Graze catalog 1973-74 (German bee supply company). "Plastikwaage" DM 21.80 (1982 price). Appears to be a manometer/hydrolic scale, with water being poured in tube. Wedmore, E.B. A manual of bee-keeping. (publication details not available). p 228-229, items 880-883. Describes value of scale hive, use of spring balance to lift hive. Reid, G.M. Personal communication. 1974. Describes use of spring balance with lever arrangement (fits into handhold on bottom box, to measure 1/2 weight of hive). Commonly used in South Island, NZ. Gilberd, Darcy J. Make your own bale weigher. NZ Farmer, September 25, 1986, page 57. Uses four car tires with tubes filled with water, joined by stems with copper tubes, then up to plastic tube against scale on wall. Will take up to 2 tonnes. end (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:25:57 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: pesky bear At 21:07 9/10/96 -0000, Kevin Christensen wrote: >...I saw something strange today concerning bear behavior.... >Has anyone else noticed that a bear's sweet tooth includes more than just >honey and bees? A wild Koala chewed on my boots once... -As Mick Wallace said... Sorry, I couldn't let that one pass ;) Greetings from Brisbane!!! Mauricio ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:23:04 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Follower boards In-Reply-To: <9609108449.AA844986569@ext.missouri.edu> In article <9609108449.AA844986569@ext.missouri.edu>, Ray Nabors writes >Dear reader, > The easiest method of making a follower board is to buy 1 X and cut it >to length. I know, I am using many of these at the moment. I like follower >boards because they make hive inspection simple. Each hive should have only 1. >I >did say 1 and only 1. The board is cut to the size of the frame from end bar to >end bar. Standard lumber is used. Nails properly placed in each end will >suspend >the board without the need to make any cuts except to length. The board comes >out first when you inspect the bees. Set the board aside and examine each >frame. >The first frame out of the hive goes where the follower board was. Place each >inspected frame in until you have gone completely through the hive box. Replace >the follower board on the other side of the frames. That is why we call it a >follwer board, it follows the frames back into the hive. A 1 X 6 works for >shallow boxes, a 1X8 for mediums and a 1 X 10 for deeps. The prospect of using >two of these boards that are 3/8 inch thick is unnecessary and defeats the >purpose which is to make hive inspection more quick and easy. Only 1 is needed >and that is all you should use. > >______________________________ Reply Separator ________________________________ >_ >Subject: Re: Follower boards >Author: Discussion of Bee Biology at internet-ext >Date: 10/8/96 5:20 PM > > >In Eugene Killion's HONEY IN THE COMB he gives plans for making solid >durable follower boards. The major difficulty would be in finding 3/8" >stock to make them from. > >Another description I once saw used 3/8" masonite, the size of a frame, >with a strip of sheet metal bent over the top (the metal was the length of >a top bar). There were 4 rivets popped thru the metal holding it securely >to the board. > >The "ears" of the follower board were formed by bending under the sheet >metal on each end (where it juts past the edge of the board). I've not >made any like this but it seems straightforward. > >An old-timer once suggested to me the idea of manufacturing quality >follower boards. They are never offered by suppliers or in the journals. >Someone could no doubt make a nice little business of it, it they could >make them in large quanitities and offer to ship them. I think they'd be >popular. What you call "follower boards" appears to be the same thing that we call "Dummy boards" over here in the UK. I have made some myself from 3/8" ply and a strip of wood nailed to the top to act as a top bar. I know that suppliers such as Steele & Brodie (Steele&Brodie@taynet.co.uk) and Thornes (Thorne@dial.pipex.com) offer these in their catalogues. If you can't order from these suppliers direct, you might try one of their agents. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Bedfordshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ronald E Baker Subject: Re: Carniolans David Eyre wrote: >If you realy want to try the best of 'Buckfast' then you should >look to Ontario. There are 3 Buckfast breeders with ISOLATED mating yards, >who are licenced by Buckfast Abbey and who are the only ones allowed to use >the pre-fix "Buckfast". I am not one of them, but would be prepared to post >the addresses if requested. > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * > * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * > * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * > * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * > **************************************************** I want to try Buckfast in the Spring. Until now, I was aware only of the Weaver Apiaries in Texas. I would be very interested in learning the names and addresses of the 3 Buckfast breeders mentioned above. Ronald E Baker baker@mail.multiverse.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:40:20 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: oil and sugar In-Reply-To: <199610112022.QAB05753@segwun.muskoka.net> from "David Eyre" at Oct 11, 96 04:14:53 pm All of the packages of TM that I buy are sealed foil, to keep out moisture and UV light. On the package, it states: Store below 25 degrees C or 77 degrees F. I have been told that TM breaks down with moisture, sunlight, and heat. The storage warning certainly implies heat sensitivity, and many of our veterinarians store it under refrigeration. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:43:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Mad BeeMan Memo ---------------------------------------- Reflections of a MAD BEE MAN from the OLd Drone Not so many years ago that I have forgotten my bees were being killed by some of my good farm neighbors controlling perceived pests in their cotton fields. They had read about them and the end of the world in the farm papers and had received a free report on their own fields from the friendly university trained farm agent and chemical sales person. Beekeepers were going out of business because they could not replace their bees as fast as the crop dusters could kill them. I was spending everything I made from my own bees and all I could borrow to replace them every year. I also was waging my own small political campaign to protect my honeybees from pesticides at the local and state level. I was running around like a chicken with his head cut off and going broke like so many other beekeepers. "Conditions were changing for the better", I was told over and over but I could not measure the difference in my bee yards, the bees were still getting killed. I was at the end of my own rope, then I read of some crazy old Russian beekeeper in a ajoining farm town who had been arrested on suspicion of torching a plane parked across the road from his home and honey farm. But he had to be released because anyone could buy a 5 gallon honey can and fill it with petrol and place it in the cockpit of the crop dusters aeroplane. He later was again picked up and released after a good long free rest and medical check up in the local mental warehouse for shooting at a crop duster that flew over his bees and home, no holes could be found in the duster or his crop dusting machine. At another location a tall heavy beehive had also been placed on a crop dusters air strip in a place that the duster could not miss hitting it causing damage to his plane, and it did. The hive turned out to have been stolen from a nearby apiary and no arrests were ever made. This old man whom I did not know was wrong but I could not help but admire his determination to make a statement as I knew first hand his disappointment from working with the system as he knew well that the burned crop duster would be replaced by a bigger and newer one, and that when a dusty crashes which happens quite regularly around here another one will take his place and the war to kill all honeybees continues to this day. I was sad for him but strangely proud to be a beekeeper when all my farm neighbors would bring his actions up at our local coffee shop and at farm center meetings. I was at the end of my own rope, frustrated in my efforts to make a living keeping bees or see changes made to make others responsibility for their actions that were killing my bees and tired of the shallow strokes I was getting from those who could have made a difference at every level of government from the University President to the Governor himself. I had then the "gonads" and was naive enough to meet and talk with them all and assumed the strokes I received meant that change was on the way. I enjoyed the FREE perks paid for mostly by the big spending chemical industry and other big tax payers but I still had to return home to the real life silence of thousands of my own bee hives overflowing my storage barns. And then one day after checking another yard of stinking dieing bees and with a empty head void of thoughts and without a plan or any idea as to what I could do next I was driving down one of our back roads and ahead I could see a crop duster preparing to take off using the black top as his runway. This was a common practice and saved lots of money in constructing special landing fields for crop dusters. I knew it violated many local, state, and federal laws but was overlooked by the same people who overlooked the honeybees that were being killed. Something snapped in me that day, I was mad as hell and could not take it anymore, I was defeated and could not see any end to what was happening to other's and my own bees, my future was dieing with my bees. Instead of yielding the right of way to the on coming crop duster, loaded down with another cargo of death for someone's bees, and pulling over into the brier ditch along the side of the road as all had done before me, I continued on a course that could have ended in disaster, and was I ever relieved when to my amazement the massive crop duster at the last moment beat me to the ditch on the left side of the road and I did not have to alter my course for the same on the right. I never had realized what a heavy mass of machinery these old crop dusters were as from the ground when they are flying over my home and bee yards they don't look so big as they are from the seat of your pick up looking straight into the dirty massive engine and spinning propeller all stuck tight in the soft soil off the black top. The crop duster was not at all damaged although it was a bit unsettling to see it stuck in such a awkward position, but a very angry owner/pilot rushed over to me as I stood by the side of my truck and made some gestures that were not friendly in nature and some very nasty remarks about my own heritage that includes two presidents on my mother's side, which I don't remember and won't repeat. But he also said he knew who I was and that I was a beekeeper and he would get even with me. I accepted his challenge and I gave him my business card so he would know how to get in touch with me and left the scene of my madness with a strange feeling of enlightenment or great relief. Like I had met the enemy in mortal face to face combat and survived. The experience for me was like a rebirth or the first night of two innocents on honeymoon. I will never forget my madness and from that day I became a real BEEMAN and a better advocate for all beekeepers and believe it or not I generated more respect from our local dusty's and others on the farm then all the efforts I put in playing by their bible called the Agricultural Code in California; dinning with the State Director of Agriculture, or the president of the University of California, Chemical Company Presidents, so called beekeeping research scientists or the would bee next President of the United States, RR, not Abe. I never worried about any crop duster getting me from then on as I had already been gotten and this one did try to have me cited for blocking his use of the county road as a runway and the results of his attempts were that was the last flight of any crop duster from any county road in my county as from that day to this they were required to use their own special landing strips that can be monitored for pesticide contamination and once en a great while they are. Since then the tire marks from the landing planes have worn off the pavements and the rains have washed away the spills and dumps into our drinking water that occur everyday when loading a crop duster. I am a lot older and still not sure about my sanity or beekeeping skills and I count few crop dusters as my friends. I have seen and learned much on the law from being on both sides of the table that regulates what I and they do and have learned how to make part of their life a little less pleasant but never will come close to what they have done to me and my bees. Life is not that long, and someday I will be gone but no one will be able to say I did what I did at the expense of others which can not be said for those who pride themselves as being part of the agricultural chemical community who all will find a special warm place waiting for them on their way to heaven and at least two beekeepers will be waiting with his 5 gallon honey cans, full of fuel for the fires of hell. ttul, OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ A beekeeper smells the flowers and looks for the supers. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:26:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Carniolans Hi David, I for one would like to know where I could order Buckfast bees. Please post the addresses. Mary Sellhorn Sunlite Apiaries Sebastopol, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:40:28 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re; Andy's Mad We got chased our of the West Side( of the San Joaquin Valley) in 1940. We went back when DDT came along because we could live with that but I guess people couldn't so they out-lawed it and started using parathion and all of it's cousins. In 1960 I organized the Delta bee Club and became president of the California State Beekeeperes Association. My mainproject was to work with the State and the Farmers and the applicators. I organizied meetings and atttended conferences, much as Andy describes, and I decided that we were not going to get get cooperation from any of those peole. Oh, there were a few farmers who were sympathetic. At least they were sympathetice while they were renting our bees to pollinate their crops. I quit. I sold my bees and tried a few other things. Andy had been working with me and that is when he took over and did as much as anyone can but the beekeepers didn't have enough leverage and they wer not willing or able to cooperate in refusing pollinating contacts in the areas of danger. Andy is much tougher than I. When the going got tough I got going...into another area or another business. I never had any hives of bees killed by insecticides. Well, hardly ever. My queens and bees were so weakened that I was replacing 400 of my 1000 hives every spring. When I went back in we tried to keep away from the poisons. Then I came to Hawaii and it is so rural here that they don't use airplanes for spreading sprays and dusts. They just use helicopters to find illegal weeds so if you keep your bees away from the marijuana patches you can avoid even paraquat. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:24:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Carniolans David Eyre wrote: >If you realy want to try the best of 'Buckfast' then you should >look to Ontario. There are 3 Buckfast breeders with ISOLATED mating yards, >who are licenced by Buckfast Abbey and who are the only ones allowed to use >the pre-fix "Buckfast". I am not one of them, but would be prepared to post >the addresses if requested. In a message dated 96-10-12 20:31:14 EDT, MSellhorn@AOL.COM () writes: << Hi David, I for one would like to know where I could order Buckfast bees. Please post the addresses. Mary Sellhorn Sunlite Apiaries Sebastopol, CA >> It might be a good idea to check first to see if US customers can order bees from Canada legally. Canada has had a quarantine on US bees coming in for several years. The question is: what does US law say about such reverse imports? It may well be similar to the NC - SC thing. North Carolina has had a quarantine on South Carolina, and all other states', bees for several years. SC has a law which makes an automatic reprisal, when such quarantines are established by other states, ie., SC therefore has a quarantine against NC bees. (I didn't say it was observed; I know of NC beekeepers who bring bees to SC, and then take them back. At least they don't have a double standard, they break both state laws equally. And the rest of North Carolina's beekeepers had the illusion that they were protected from varroa by the quarantine, so they didn't look for it. Varroa is now pretty widespread in NC, so the reason for the quarantine no longer exists. If it continues now, it will be a case of a state regulating interstate commerce, which of course is forbidden by the US constitution. And I suspect that, after having drenched the eastern half of the state with Malathion, North Carolina will be looking for additional bees next spring. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:42:00 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steven Albritton Subject: Help We have one hive that has a lot of dead bees in front of it. A lot of the bees are almost fully developed larva that is still white but look like full grown bees. What causes this? What can we do for this. I would assume we need to do something quickly. The hive has plenty of bees right now but I would assume that will change quickly if the brood is having problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:57:58 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 10 Oct 1996 to 11 Oct 1996 In-Reply-To: <199610120404.VAA20932@beach.silcom.com> I get my Permadent foundation from Mann Lake Ltd. 1800-233-6663 >From their 1996 catalog Price varies according to size of sheets. 8 1/2" Quantaties 1-100 0.76 cents per sheet 5 5/8" " 0.66 cents per sheet 4 3/4" " 0.58 cents per sheet WOuld be interested in other sources and prices of this foudation. Paul Cronshaw DC Hobby Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA --------------- Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:14:10 PST From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Permadent Hello All, A while back, someone on the list stated that they used "Permadent" plastic foundation. I would be very interested in telephone/address/price information if someone has that info available. Thanks Steve Creasy- in Maryville, Tennessee Screasy@juno.com (yes, I too use the best-priced E-Mail software in the world! see www.juno.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:58:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Top Ventilation in the Southern US of A Top Ventilation in Southern locations? All of my hives have top ventilation/entrances the year 'round. I do this by cutting a notch (1 inch by 5/16 inch) in each of my inner covers, and then making sure the notch isn't blocked by the outer covers after I work the hives. The upper entrance has a variety of benifits, including provinding a vater vapor exhaust port, and a usable emergency entrance during heavy snow conditions. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg MD. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:30:29 +1100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Immune Reactions to Stings At 12:33 PM 7/10/96 +0100, you wrote: >After several years of bee stings, I recently suffered a sudden anaphylactic >reaction to bee venom from just one sting - in the neck. < .... SNIP ..... > >One must act prudently not giving an Epipen injection whenever >a small local swelling occurs, but one will rather quickly know >when a sting reaction is getting out of hand, and Epipen is the >single treatment of choice for this situation. This implies that we should keep a shot of Epipen with us all the time and learn how to use it. How long dose Epipen last if not used? Many drugs have a definite "use by" date. If you don't use them before then, you have to throw them out & get a fresh supply (just in case). Have you tried injecting your self lately(or any body else)? (I presume most readers here are not into the fashionable drugs) A lot of people find this very difficult. It sounds simple enough when you just about it but when push comes to shove it's not so simple. If you ever need to use this stuff, you will have to be quick, cool, calm & collected. Murphy's law also says that you will be on your own when you need it. For defense against chemical warfare, soldiers are issued with a spring loaded dose of stuff. They can't be trusted to use a normal syringe when they need to. To inject themselves they just slap this device against their thigh, and it shoots them with a dose through all the clothing. If you get this stuff for your own use, make sure you get a good delivery system that you know you can use. Try a few trial does of harmless fluids to make sure you can handle it. Regards Chris Allen -- End --