Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id AA6621300D4; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:27:34 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4495; Thu, 14 Nov 96 10:32:01 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6661; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:31:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:31:50 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9610E" To: "W. Allen Dick" X-UIDL: 587 Status: U ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 05:27:27 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: Cleaning Jars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:34 PM 10/27/96 EST, you wrote: >> Here is another "jar cleaning question" >> >> Does anyone know how to remove the glue (from the backs of labels) which >> sticks to the jars when one recycles commercial honey, spaghetti, or other >> product jars? Some luckily are water soluable...but others leave an opaque >> film on the glass which will not wash off. Currently I have one jar >> submerged in Varsol (mineral spirits) as a test... >> >> Any thoughts? > >When I was getting bottles for home-brewed beer I found that if you let them >soak overnight in a bucket of water with some ammonia in it, the labels >fell right off. Any remaining glue came off with a little brushing. You might >want >to let them soak outside though and avoid the aroma! > >Kevin D. Parsons Washing Soda makes a good soak also, it will take off labels like Regular Bud in about 1 day and silver labels like Bud Light in 2 or 3 days. Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 U.S.A. ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:09:13 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS Subject: Re: Commerical Beekeeping in Uganda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Geneva>I write for some Ugandan friends who have started a small community based bee keeping >operation for commerical honey production. They are starting at the basics and would appreciate >any correspondence to aid >them in developing a viable business Michael, Try the following address: Bees for Development Troy Monmouth NP5 4AB England They can also be reached via e-mail: - 100410.2631@CompuServe.com (Dr Nicola Bradbear) True to its name this organisation tries to help such people. For this purpose they also publish a journal called "Beekeeping and Development". I support them via an annual donation so they can extend their services. Hope this helps. Hans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:13:48 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: Pheromones & defensiveness In-Reply-To: <199610260337.NAA08343@pip2.pip.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <199610260337.NAA08343@pip2.pip.com.au>, Bruce Laidlaw writes >At 12:58 PM 25/10/96 +0100, Dave Black wrote: >the use of smoke is to confuse >>or mask pheromone communcation between bees > >So is my notion that the bees think: "Smoke! Smoke! It's a bush fire! Save >the honey!" and then, being comfortably fat with the honey, don't feel like >stinging, is that too fanciful to be true? No, but I think its only part of the story. Thus you smoke the bit the b**ggers have just sting and avoid crushing bees and making the place smell like a venom infused killing field. I'm told the use of smoke is essential by africans working with (surprise, surprise) african bees. Maybe their bees read different books ! -- Dave Black Blacks Bee Gardens, Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:54:39 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: QUB Subject: Re: Commerical Beekeeping in Uganda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hi, Not being a computer expert I am unable to figure out how to read your attachment entitled ENRICHED. Can you tell me what program will read this file? Regards Phil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:01:57 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Garey B. Spradley" Subject: list messages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like to express my gratitude to the current members of the list for all their helpful advice and comments. I am new to beekeeping(first year - two hives) and when first heard about the list, assumed it was for researchers, universities and commercial people. In other words, novice need not apply. However, after lurking a bit, I have discovered a group of friendly, humorous individuals bound together by their interest/love for a tiny but important critter. I have learned much - especially about current research on mites(tracheal and varroa and more!) and been encouraged in my decision to jump into beekeeping after thinking about it for 20 yrs. I truly appreciate the education I have received thus far, and look forward to becoming a contributing part of the discussion(as my experience increases). Judy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Displaced Texan in PA gspradley@gcc.edu Iron Acres - where the water is red and the grass is green! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:06:05 +22324924 Reply-To: adamf@vt.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Re: Pheromones & defensiveness In-Reply-To: from "Dave Black" at Oct 25, 96 12:58:56 pm Content-Type: text Smoke knocks out the chemical receptor sites on bee antenna. Yes, it overpowers the sensing ability, much like being in a room with a pot of burnt rice. Since these sites slowly become re- sensitized, the effects of the smoke lasts a few minutes. Bees that require lots of smoke to handle probably have very resilient potentials in their antennae. I have seen bees that gorge on honey when smoked--they are usually in an upper super, during honey removal and are probably doing what they would do if disturbed, anyway. Pheromones work in a specific concentration. Too much and a response isn't likely, although a sort of disoriented, stupefied behavior may result. A concentration of 20 micrograms/microliter is sometimes too high for the bees I'm looking at. That's a _very small_ amount of pheromone, and might describe the scope of pheromone activity--how sensitive those antennae are! Adam -- _________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu http://sunsite.unc.edu/bees/adamf/home.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 21:32:35 -0500 Reply-To: smills@wichita.fn.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stephen & Colleen Mills Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In this scene, the beekeeper breathed through a length of > clear plastic pipe (about 10-15 feet long) so that the carbon dioxiode > in his breath came out well away from the hive. Just a quick Comment, It is impossible to breath in thru a 15 ft tube as the volume of the tube exceedes the tidal volume of the lungs which is the same reason that a skin divers snorkle is so short, I guess you could inhale thru your nose and exhale thru the tube but sounds dificult to me, and hope the bees arn't around the far end of the tube, GULP Steve Mills Mulvane Ks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:17:09 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Feeders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" <<< Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Bee Space and Apistan St REGARDING RE>Bee Space and Apistan Strips Tim Sterrett wrote: >I just removed Apistan strips from seven colonies. In every case, the tops of the strips were glued (with propolis) to the top bars of the wooden frames and the strips were glued where they passed down between the top bars. But (with one exception out of fourteen strips) the part of the strip between the faces of the wax combs was clean of wax and propolis. Why don't the bees work on the strips between the frames?< Removal of Apistan is an interesting problem. I, too, notice that the strips are firmly stuck in place to the top bars with propolis. Unlike Tim's experience, however, I noticed that in the upper brood chamber (but never the lower), where much fall honey had been stored since the strips were put in place, in the majority of cases the bees had firmly bound the upper third of the strips to the adjoining comb. This was often done on both sides of the strip, making it necessary to slide the hive tool down on both sides also to loosen it enough for removal. This makes me wonder. With what we're hearing about fluvalinate getting into beeswax, now the reason is becoming very obvious to me: it might transfer directly from burr comb contact with the Apistan strip. Ted Fischer Dexter, MI, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:52:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: apis Organization: Cia. das Abelhas Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am Brazilian and I have been working with AHB for about 10 years now. Many beekeeping tecniques were specially developed here to deal with them. I am member of APTA (Associacao Paulista dos Tecnicos Apicolas), wich is our regional beekeeping association and of wich I was part of board for 4 years. I also present some works on Braziliam Beekeeping Congress. I am at anybody's disposal for specific information our consultation. Regards for all. JOSE MARIA DIAS R. Arlindo de Oliveira 118 18044-240 Sorocaba - Sao Paulo Brazil apis@splicenet.com.br ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:21:51 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Africanized Honeybees in Nicaragua MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Guillermo Jacoby queried about AHB in Nicaragua: >> My question is: How can I get their aggressiveness down? I was >> thinking of importing queens.... Tom Elliott responded: > I have yet to hear any suggestion of selective breeding of AHB... > ... We could do > a real service to those now keeping AHB if we were to export a mild > mannered AHB that had the required mating habits to compete with the > feral population. Tom's answer hits two points that make toning down an AHB population problematic. "Selective breeding" is a good tool in affecting change in the characteristics of honeybees. Unfortunately, speaking from what I have read as I have no firsthand experience with AHBs, AHBs don't readily allow the manipulations required for an effective selective breeding program. Furthermore, Ted mentions competition with the feral populations, which in Nicaragua are mostly if not all Africanized. It is my understanding that the aggressiveness in AHB is not confined to their temperament, it also extends to their "work ethics" when it comes to competing for nectar and pollen and it also extends to their amorous lives when it comes to mating with receptive queens. AHBs out compete their European cousins when it comes to foraging and they out compete their European cousins when it comes mating. The Africanized drones get to the queens first! Hence, a requeening program will require diligence to keep the European queens "throned" and unless the bee yard is isolated from the africanized feral population, any supersedure will most likely result in an africanized replacement. Attempts to keep European pockets in an Africanized area put the European bees at a disadvantage regarding production and require a good deal of effort keeping the European strains pure. This is not to say that there is no hope, as progress has been made with selectively crossing European and Africanized bees. I'm not sure of the details or source (I believe a back issue of _American_Bee_Journal_, specific issue I cannot provide), but there have been promising results with such hybrids (perhaps it was a double hybrid?). However, the beekeeper must keep constant watch over his or her hives to ensure that the hybrid queen is not superseded. I believe the article was titled "Working With the Africanized Bee" but that is just a guess. The hybrid discussed was less fierce than the Africanized strain yet better able to compete in the Africanized neighborhood. The quick answer to Guillermo's query is requeen. I imagine the best source for workable queens will be local. Sorry that I don't have the issue of this information. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:29:32 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: Pheromones & defensiveness Comments: To: adamf@vt.edu In-Reply-To: <199610281306.IAA35004@vtaix.cc.vt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <199610281306.IAA35004@vtaix.cc.vt.edu>, Adam Finkelstein writes >Smoke knocks out the chemical receptor sites on bee antenna. Yes, >it overpowers the sensing ability >Pheromones work in a specific concentration. Too much and a response isn't >likely Adam >From what you say there is a basic difference between a 'chemical' and a 'pheromone' and that (I guess) they are sensed by different receptors. Can you indicate how they are different and how only a specific concentration works ? I had just assumed a pheromone to be a type of chemical. Is the concentration so small because it's diffusing in air and the source distant so, say one molecule, is enough to trigger a response in a special receptor site ? If so you couldn't disable a pheromone response with smoke or anything else but you might handicap the bees by diminishing their overall sensory abilty so they loose the 'confidence' to respond. -- Dave Black Blacks Bee Gardens, Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:04:06 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: Federal Funds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. Steven tossed out an idea and deserves a reasonable response, not political ranting. Please, folks, back off. We are cheering for Cherios, hoping for federal funding for research, so why is it so outrageous to consider assistance to beekeepers? Farmers and ranchers have been subsidized for years. In the midst of a crisis in pollinators in this country, Steve's concept deserves consideration. I'd rather have my tax dollars go toward beekeeping than bombers. Whether you agree, disagree or want to ponder it, at least keep the dialogue more civil. At 05:36 PM 10/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >> With all the problems of low bee populations, I wonder if the >Federal Gov. >has any programs to help beginning beekeepers. I started with two >hives this >year and plan to expand next year. This can be expensive and will be >done >slowly unless there is some type of program available. >Steven Albritton >LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms >Monroe, Louisiana> > >The above message states the main problem we have and that is people >looking to the all mighty Federal Gov. to solve all of our problems. >I started out a couple of years ago with just 7 hives and have built >that number up to 50. I did not run to the Feds with my hand out to >take other peoples money to spend. If you want to be a producer then >PRODUCE. > >Bill Hughes >Bent Holly Honey Farms >Brighton, TN USA > > Marcia Sinclair Writer & Editor Gresham, Oregon wordland@mail.aracnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:41:14 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: Federal Funds marcia sinclair writes:" This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. Steven tossed out an idea and deserves a reasonable response, not political ranting. Please, folks, back off. We are cheering for Cherios, hoping for federal funding for research, so why is it so outrageous to consider assistance to beekeepers? Farmers and ranchers have been subsidized for years. In the midst of a crisis in pollinators in this country, Steve's concept deserves consideration. I'd rather have my tax dollars go toward beekeeping than bombers. Whether you agree, disagree or want to ponder it, at least keep the dialogue more civil. ----------- marcia and others - the problem is that faced with bombers or bees, the gov't will choose bombers. and bees. and raise our taxes and / or dump us further into the national debt. less government is better government. when i vote, i usually vote no to all proposals which will raise taxes, no matter how "worthy" the cause is. we live in a society with roughly 50% of all workers working for the government. this isn't good, especially for those who don't work for uncle sam. we all complain about taxes, so, why give any consideration for efforts which are designed to raise them? can anyone out there really believe that given the choice between bombers or bees, the government would choose bees over bombers AND reduce taxes to boot? marcia - this isn't a flame against you, just a little reality check. stop thinking about how uncle sam can help you out and more about how you can solve your own problems. let the flames begin, i can see it now.... (\ John /) {|||8- in -8|||} (/ Santa Cruz \) California ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:52:26 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Africanized Honeybees in Nicaragua MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > I have yet to hear any suggestion of selective breeding of AHB... > > ... We could do > > a real service to those now keeping AHB if we were to export a > > mild mannered AHB that had the required mating habits to compete > > with the feral population. > > Tom's answer hits two points that make toning down an AHB population > problematic. "Selective breeding" is a good tool in affecting > change in the characteristics of honeybees. A suggestion I have not heard is the idea of fighting fire with fire. The AHB stocks in the Americas are apparently the offspring of only 13? hives brought into Brazil in 1956? How representative of *all* African stock are they? Likely not very. Africa is a huge continent with many natural barriers, i should think. Are there not likely to be numerous sub-strains in Africa that maybe as prolific as the current strain in america, yet have more desirable and less anti-human characteristics? I should think that some research into this might pay off quickly. while importing selected African stocks to the US or Canada for breeding, would be difficult due to regulatory barriers, i should thing some of the smaller countries might have no laws in this regard at all. And if the selected strains turned out to be all that good, then they might -- over time -- chase out the bad strain we now have to face. flames to /dev/nul/ Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:06:48 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Federal Funds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > marcia sinclair writes:" > > This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. You have to have a thick skin and a sense of humour to last on BEE-L sometimes, although it is one of the most civilised lists on the net most of the time. My only (slightly negative) comment is that this matter is a local (US only) political debate ocurring on an *international* list, and hence maybe a bit out of place. But, what the heck, this affords those of us outside the US to have a few chuckles at America's expense. It's almost as funny as the flag waving and chest thumping patriotism that get going from time to time. Personally, I don't care if you guys want to get worked up about this and keep at it right here on what is noramlly a _Bee_ list, since I have discovered a 'delete' key somewhere here on my keyboard, and learned how to use it well and often. Moreover, if I find someone (Can you say WP, boys and girls?) too hard to take, I just put him/her in my 'rules' list and 'voila' I never hear of him again! All email messages with that name *anywhere* in them -- disappear! You may be surprised that I seldom do that to anyone, because out of a ton of garbage often emerges some wisdom, so I recommend tolerance and good humour ('humor' for you guys in the US of A). Can't we all just get along? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Federal Funds Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > marcia sinclair writes:" > > > > This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. > > You have to have a thick skin and a sense of humour to last on BEE-L etc > But, what the heck, this affords those of us outside the US to have > a few chuckles at America's expense. It's almost as funny as the > flag waving and chest thumping patriotism that get going from time > to time. > > Can't we all just get along? > Regards > > Allen > > W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK Wow.. This is a first..:) I laughed while reading one of Allen's posts. Will wonders ever cease? While I remove my tongue from my cheek, I would like to offer my apologies to Allen for any and all grumpiness on my part in the past...;) Cheers! Ian Watson iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:32:26 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Volpe Subject: Re: Federal Funds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" O.K. people, this has gone far enough. There are plenty of other outlets for discussions of this nature, bee-L however is not one of them. Please remember this is an international listserv and I for one frankly don't give a damn about the various political insights of the members. John, if you have all the answers quit wasting your time (and ours) and get out and DO SOMETHING about it, let the rest of us get back to the issues that prompted us to join this list. John Volpe At 10:41 AM 10/28/96 -0800, you wrote: >marcia sinclair writes:" > >This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. Steven >tossed out an idea and deserves a reasonable response, not political >ranting. Please, folks, back off. We are cheering for Cherios, hoping for >federal funding for research, so why is it so outrageous to consider >assistance to beekeepers? Farmers and ranchers have been subsidized for >years. In the midst of a crisis in pollinators in this country, Steve's >concept deserves consideration. I'd rather have my tax dollars go toward >beekeeping than bombers. Whether you agree, disagree or want to ponder it, >at least keep the dialogue more civil. > >----------- > >marcia and others - > >the problem is that faced with bombers or bees, the gov't will choose >bombers. and bees. and raise our taxes and / or dump us further into >the national debt. > >less government is better government. > >when i vote, i usually vote no to all proposals which will raise taxes, >no matter how "worthy" the cause is. we live in a society with roughly >50% of all workers working for the government. this isn't good, especially >for those who don't work for uncle sam. we all complain about taxes, so, >why give any consideration for efforts which are designed to raise them? >can anyone out there really believe that given the choice between bombers or >bees, the government would choose bees over bombers AND reduce taxes to boot? > >marcia - this isn't a flame against you, just a little reality check. stop >thinking about how uncle sam can help you out and more about how you can >solve your own problems. > >let the flames begin, i can see it now.... > > (\ John /) > {|||8- in -8|||} > (/ Santa Cruz \) > California > > ----------------------------------------------------------- John Volpe Dept. of Biology Centre for Environmental Health University of Victoria P.O. Box 3020 Victoria, B.C., Canada V8W 3N5 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:09:12 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Smoke - it lasts for hours MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Because we now have the capability to continuously measure bee flight in and out of 21 hives located in Maryland, we are in the process of examining the effects of a wide array of external stressors on honey bee behavior. We looked at smoke. Two small (and I mean really small) puffs of smoke at the entrance, wait 2 minutes, puff twice more and then watch the results. Because the wind was blowing perpendicular to the row of hives, only one got most of the 4 puffs of smoke, others got less than 4 puffs, and some adjacent "unsmoked" hives got a bit of smoke drift. In less than two minutes, the numbers of outgoing bees dropped off dramatically in the "smoked" hives. But closer examination showed the numbers of outgoing bees decreased in all hives, even those just getting a bit of drift. Numbers of incoming bees, as expected, did not change much. But here's the interesting part, we smoked the bees early in the afternoon and the effect lasted through the evening - they never returned to full activity as compared to flight for the previous or following days. Not surprisingly, the more smoke, the more obvious the effect. Remember though, we only injected a bit of smoke. We did not open, bang, or handle the hives. Our thought for the day. Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:18:36 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree, I really want the answers whether I like them or not. It gives me something to consider. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:26:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Far North adapted bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom & Carol Elliott wrote. >We are at @latitude 61 degrees north, but with a marine influence. We can not count >of flying days between October 1st and April 1st. We may get some but bees flying >are normally lost to disorientation (caused presumably by snow cover combined with a >sun VERY low on the horizon. Temperatures normally range from about 20 degrees >Farenheit (about -6 Celsius) to -10 F (about -20 C). One big factor is the length of >darkness we 'enjoy' during the winter months. If you live at the same latitude you >know what I mean. I would suggest the first move might be to find a strain of Northern bees. To bring in bees from California to over winter would be like transplanting oranges from Florida and expecting them to flourish. Before some one comments, I'm not knocking the Southern breeders. But it stands to reason, find a Northern bee, then find out how us Northerners winter our bees. The most northerly breeder that I know off would be Rick Neilson R R # 1 Stratton, Ontario P0W 1N0 1- 807-487-2387 He lives up in the Thunder Bay area I believe. Is there any one breeding bees further north than that? We don't 'suffer' the dark, but our temp are about the same. Last winter we had snow cover from the first week in Nov till the middle of Feb. Not one day above freezing in all that time. Our breeder yard suffered zero losses, so over wintering is not a real major problem!! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:51:58 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Various Bee Markings??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fellow Bee-L'ers, I have a question? How many different patterns of colors do you find in your hives? I opened a hive that had been vacant since last year. A feral colony moved in and set up house keeping in July. Lucky for me the moths hadn't done much damage to the comb left by the former residents (pesticide kill) so the hive may be OK. I ask the above question because these bees have many different patterns of stripes. Some are the standard 6 striped italians, some have only very light stripes but the stinger end of the bee is dark nearly a third up the thorax. I even have some bees with no noticable stripes just what at eye site appears to be a yellow bee the drones are solid dark and about 10% of the workers are solid dark. The bees seem to all be getting along. I remember reading somewhere on the Bee-L that if a hive is distroyed, or moved, the bees left behind will join a local colony. Could this bee what happened? The hive is in an area where a lot of new construction is going on with clearing of all of the trees for the quarter mile west of the hive. The girls are doing fine, I treated for mites. They have about half the brood box full of honey, pollen and brood. We haven't had our first freeze of the year here in South Central Oklahoma, USA. I will probably feed them this winter come jan or feb. I haven't decided if I should requeen because the hive might be resistant to mites, but the hive is very agressive. Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: gibberellic acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All, I am trying to get a blueberry account for pollination next spring(yeah!!!:))) and the foreman mentioned they were considering using g-acid along with bees to increase pollination. Does anyone have experience with this? Any side affect to the bees? Any other info...? The trade name may be Progibb. Many thanks!! God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:04:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Various Bee Markings??? In-Reply-To: <199610282152.AA21971@interlock.halnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, RICHARD BARNES wrote: > Fellow Bee-L'ers, I have a question? > > How many different patterns of colors do you find in your hives? > > I opened a hive that had been vacant since last year. A feral colony moved > in and set up house keeping in July. Lucky for me the moths hadn't done > much damage to the comb left by the former residents (pesticide kill) so > the hive may be OK. I ask the above question because these bees have many > different patterns of stripes. Some are the standard 6 striped italians, > some have only very light stripes but the stinger end of the bee is dark > nearly a third up the thorax. I even have some bees with no noticable > stripes just what at eye site appears to be a yellow bee the drones are > solid dark and about 10% of the workers are solid dark. The bees seem to > all be getting along. I remember reading somewhere on the Bee-L that if a > hive is distroyed, or moved, the bees left behind will join a local colony. > Could this bee what happened? The hive is in an area where a lot of new > construction is going on with clearing of all of the trees for the quarter > mile west of the hive. > Richard Barnes > rbarnes@halnet.com > I would say that what you have there is a queen who was mated with several different drones. Since only one sperm will combine with each egg, the new bees will be a combination of the queen's genes and one of each type of drones. Ian Watson iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:46:15 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: apis Organization: Cia. das Abelhas Subject: Re: Various Bee Markings??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RICHARD BARNES wrote: > > Fellow Bee-L'ers, I have a question? > > How many different patterns of colors do you find in your hives? > > I opened a hive that had been vacant since last year. A feral colony moved > in and set up house keeping in July. Lucky for me the moths hadn't done > much damage to the comb left by the former residents (pesticide kill) so > the hive may be OK. I ask the above question because these bees have many > different patterns of stripes. Some are the standard 6 striped italians, > some have only very light stripes but the stinger end of the bee is dark > nearly a third up the thorax. I even have some bees with no noticable > stripes just what at eye site appears to be a yellow bee the drones are > solid dark and about 10% of the workers are solid dark. The bees seem to > all be getting along. I remember reading somewhere on the Bee-L that if a > hive is distroyed, or moved, the bees left behind will join a local colony. > Could this bee what happened? The hive is in an area where a lot of new > construction is going on with clearing of all of the trees for the quarter > mile west of the hive. > > The girls are doing fine, I treated for mites. They have about half the > brood box full of honey, pollen and brood. We haven't had our first freeze > of the year here in South Central Oklahoma, USA. I will probably feed them > this winter come jan or feb. I haven't decided if I should requeen because > the hive might be resistant to mites, but the hive is very agressive. I think that your bee's color are like my bee's color (AHB). If they are agressive and mite resistant than they may be AHB. Your description is very typical. How about their sizes? Are they smaller? Tell us about it! JOSE MARIA DIAS BRAZIL apis@splicenet.com.br ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "John M. Scott" Subject: Re: CENSUS >Fellow Bee-l's > > I must confess that I made an error when I quoted you folks >the fines pertaining to NOT complying to registering hives in Pa. >I went home a checked out the law because something was not right. >I knew I should not have tried to do so from memory! The first >offense is $100. the second $300. and every offense after that is >$1000. I guess I thought one should get a warning first. Sorry for >the misinformation. (Is that politically correct?) > > Ron Harriger > 100 Rhoades St. > Cambridge Springs Pa. 16403 Dear Ron, I am new to Bee Keeping, new to the Bee-L's listserv, and to the internet. I would like to know more about the law in Pa. about registering bee hives,and how and to whom this is done. Would you please help me. Thank you. John M, Scott jmsst147@pop.pitt.edu Central Cambria Middle School Ebensburg, Pa. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:44:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Smoke - it lasts for hours Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >But here's the interesting part, we smoked the bees early in the afternoon >and the effect lasted through the evening - they never returned to full >activity as compared to flight for the previous or following days. Not >surprisingly, the more smoke, the more obvious the effect. This is a very interesting subject, IMHO, since most of us use smoke to some extent at certain times. I would be quite interested in some more details, perhaps some numbers or a graph. Do you by any chance have a file on this experiment in your computer Jerry that you would be willing to share with the list? (I realize that this might not be possible if it is a research paper-in-the-making). :) I have noticed that, as you said, just having the smoker going in the apiary seems to affect the hives without ever actually puffing them. One time there was a forest fire in Quebec that was about fifty miles from my hives in Prince Edward Island. It was only noticeable here (to humans) as an eerily hazy day. The bees all refused to fly that day. They just hung around the landing boards in perfect weather with a honey flow on. I am curious as to the effects of heavy smoking. I have had beekeepers from Togo and Surinam stay with me on foreign exchange programs. Both work with African or Africanized bees, and both use a LOT of smoke. Regards Stan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:44:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Processing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I am interested that Chris Allen thinks that letting the bees clean out the >cappins is a good way to spread disease. I certainly will be more careful in >the future. But, I am interested to know what the difference between >lettting the girls clean out cappings and letting them clean out the >extracted supers is. I also stack those in the woods and let 'em go at it. > It that also a problem? Hi Faith: I wonder why you (and others, because several have mentioned it) feel the need the have the bees clean out the supers. I have always understood that extracted comb should be stored wet with remaining honey as it keeps better that way. Sure the uncapped honey picks up some moisture and ferments, but the bees don't seem to mind. In fact maybe they really party when I put those supers back on :) I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that having some small amount of fermented honey in the comb when you give supers to the bees has any significant effect on the quality of the honey that they will later store in those supers. Why risk the spread of disease? Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Smoke's long-lasting effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Very interesting. Especially when you figure that most hive manipulations are done (ideally) on a nice warm sunny day. Or so the books recommend. Those would be the same days when the bees would get the most work done! I knew an old-timer in NE Massachusetts (some of you out there might remember the late Owen Haszard) who was firm in his opinion that hive manipulations ruin the colony morale for a significant time after. He figured the effect lasted for days after, even. He was very "hands-off"-ish for a hobbiest, and made a point to severely minimize the number and duration of intrusions into his hives. Do any of the BEE-L crowd NOT use smoke? Or use sugar-water spray instead? I seem to recall this topic coming up. How does this fare? Is it advisable to add some "flavoring," such as mint or anise? (Bees are supposedly very attracted to anise oil aroma.) Anyway, smoke must be harmful to some degree. It can be really HOT, too, and we might not be aware of the heat we are blasting the colony with. That's one reason I like straw for smoker fuel, as it smoulders on the cool side. Unfortunately it doesn't last very long. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:31:06 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pure Jane Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <199610250507.WAA19304@tigre.uam.edu.ni> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Notint that Guillermo Jacoby has problems for Africanized honey bees I remember that the problem is the greatest trouble in Mexico and Braizel's bee keeping. The bees are too attactive and cause so many difficulties in managing. In fact the best way is to get new bee queens to gradually replace the older ones. In Chinese we usually keep Italian bees. This kind bees are rather tame. They are not so big and looks orange. I've send some to my fellow in Mexico. He is satisfied with it. If you like , I could also send you some by air. You may contact me : Pure Jane hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Guillermo Jacoby wrote: > For the last few months since I discovered BEE-L I have enjoyed > much of what all of you have to say about beekeeping. An I have > learn a lot since. I'm a novice at this hobby. Many years ago > while growing up in the mountains of Nicaragua, Central America > (I returned to Nicaragua in 1991 after 16 in exile) my > grandfather was a beekeeper, Italian bees at the time. I became > interested in the subject but do to the revolution I had to leave > the country and the farm, which was later confiscated by the > communist regime with everything in it. > > Back in Nicaragua now, last year I decided to go > back into beekeeping, and I did about six months ago. > Now I have 6 Africanized Honey Bees Hives. That > is the only kind in Nicaragua now, they came in 1984. And they > are aggressive, very, very aggressive. On a cloudy day I get > over 100 stings in my suit, easily! And some of them go through > my suit. Last Saturday with Hurricane Lily passing close by, > when I went to feed my bees (it is the rainy season down here) > one of the beehives swarmed at me and my 10 year old son just by > standing by and talking low. It was scary, but we were > protected. > > My question is: How can I get their aggressiveness down? I was > thinking of importing queens, but that could bring the verroa > down here. Bees are fairly healthy and we don't really have a > bee illness to worry about. Can anyone help? > > The honey season starts in late November here and finishes in > April. > > Regards, > > Guillermo Jacoby > AHBeekeeper from Nicaragua > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:39:36 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Processing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler wrote: > Hi Faith: > I wonder why you (and others, because several have mentioned it) feel the > need the have the bees clean out the supers. I have always understood that > extracted comb should be stored wet with remaining honey as it keeps better > that way. Sure the uncapped honey picks up some moisture and ferments, but > the bees don't seem to mind. In fact maybe they really party when I put > those supers back on :) > Regards, Stan Hi Stan - I am one of those who let the bees clean up the supers. This is the first year though I've thought about doing it another way. I guess I've always done it primarily to have the honey residue cleaned from the frames so it would make handling the frames easier when cleaning/scraping not so much for cleaning out the combs. I've not heard about the benefits of keeping the combs wet but will wait for others to reply on this issue. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:36:10 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pure Jane Subject: Re: Retail Honey Prices In-Reply-To: <961025005938_132338846@emout05.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Tom Allen, I am interested in the price of ACACIA honey in your market for I have some unsold. I want to know whether it cover the costs. Your kind reply should forward to : Pure Jane the People's Republic of China hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Tom Allen wrote: > Wehave been successful in getting the retail prices in a local market up by > explaining the high cost of restoring bee colonies this past year. Almost > every week you will find documentation of the varroa problem in local papers > and magazines > You should clip a few to add creedence to your price requests. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:03:06 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bobby R Fanning Subject: Ant Problems. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I realize this is now a very old issue but I have a new (to me) solution to the "ants in the bee hive" problem. I use two concrete blocks to support each end of two landscaping timbers for stands. I had an ant problem. I had a can of inexpensive grease that I use to grease the I-beam on my wood splitter. I smeared a band of this grease about 2 inches wide all the way around each landscaping timber on each side of the hive(s) (4 bands total). A couple of them were not smooth bands as the concrete block had to also be isolated. The grease bands must isolate the hive(s) from all contact with the ground. The is pretty resistant to moisture and the ants are not crossing it. Bob Fanning Huntsville Al k4vb@hiwaay.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 01:00:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: TOCOPHEROILS? Well this OLd Drone did it again and asked the questions you all wanted to ask but were afraid to. Here they are and below them you will find the answers from Ms. Honeynutcherrios, herself. ---------------------------------------- hELLO Honeynutcheerios, I just purchased a 99 cent box of your product HONEY NUT CHEERIOS so that I could cut out the bee on the front of the box and send it in to the "SAVE THE BEES" program. I am not a regular dry cereal consumer and I have three questions. 1. What is "TOCOPHEROILS" I see listed in the ingredients list on the side of the box? 2. Is this product safe to feed to my cat? 3. Just how much Honey is in a box of HONEY NUT CHEERIOS? Thank you, ---REPLY---- From: General Mills <76711.3522@CompuServe.COM> Date: 28 Oct 96 16:32:09 EST Subject: Re: TOCOPHEROILS? Hi Andy, Thank you for inquiring about ingredients in Honey Nut Cheerios. The ingredient Tocopherol is a form of Vitamin E. The amount of honey in the cereal is propriety information. The person to ask, about whether or not this cereal is okay to feed to your cat, would be a veteranarian. The vet would know what your cat could be sensitive to. If I can be of further assistance, please contact me. Sincerely, Pam Vlasnik General Mills Consumer Services writing at 1:45 PM, on Monday, October 28, 1996 -----------------------------end of reply------------------ Well now you all know something new about what your kids are eating, "trisodium phosphate vitamin e (mixed tocopherols) added to preserve freshness". Sounds like the blue mold off of a old tank of tropical oils to me, but I am only a food eater and not a food scientist. "What Me Worry" about getting a little mint oil in the honey...? ttul, OLd Drone BTW. I think the cat over dosed on the TOCOPHEROLS as he has been out side a dozen times today trying to dig holes in the cement patio? (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "Where there are fruits & nuts, there are beekeepers" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:08:42 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can you tell me of any work on selective breeding for traits which would make handling the bees easier? apis wrote: > > I am Brazilian and I have been working with AHB for about 10 years now. > > Many beekeeping tecniques were specially developed here to deal with them. > > I am member of APTA (Associacao Paulista dos Tecnicos Apicolas), wich is > our regional beekeeping association and of wich I was part of board for > 4 years. I also present some works on Braziliam Beekeeping Congress. > > I am at anybody's disposal for specific information our consultation. > > Regards for all. > > JOSE MARIA DIAS > R. Arlindo de Oliveira 118 > 18044-240 Sorocaba - Sao Paulo > Brazil > apis@splicenet.com.br -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:23:50 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Africanized Honeybees in Nicaragua MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Aaron Morris wrote: >Unfortunately, speaking >from what I have read as I have no firsthand experience with AHBs, AHBs > don't readily allow the manipulations required for an effective > selective breeding program. I certainly do not have any experience with AHB as I mentioned. But in one of the major US journals I read about strains of AHB which are comparable in handling traits, to Europeanized bees. With such hives manipulations to "fix" these traits should be possible. The reason the AHB drones get to the queens most often, is because they fly earlier than do EHB. That is why I mentioned the early mating characteristic specifically in my post. In any case I am just interested in the possibility. It seems to me that it may have some complications, but would be quite possible. Raising the virgins in EHB colonies, might be one possiblity. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:23:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Martin Subject: Apistan and Brood Production Comments: cc: Matthew_Ter_Molen@development.uchicago.edu In a message dated 96-10-15 13:23:24 EDT, Matthew_Ter_Molen@development.uchicago.edu (Matthew Ter Molen) writes: << When revising my hives a week ago and pulling the apistan strips I noticed that I had around a 1 or 2 frames of brood per hive but no eggs. However, when I went back yesterday to check they had around 3 to 4 frames of eggs plus frames of capped brood. Now, we've had nice weather recently and we haven't had a hard frost so there is still a lot of aster and goldenrod in bloom and the bees were bringing in a lot of pollen. However, I noticed the correlation last year in that when the strips were in place I saw brood production decrease and then, the minute the strips have been pulled, I see egg laying dramatically increase. Has anyone else experienced this? I don't think that it is weather related, even though there is an obvious decrease in brood production at this time of year because of the cold weather and coming winter. Thanks. Matt Ter Molen >> >> Matt, the phenomenon you described has been experienced and reported before. In the October 1995 ABJ, the article beginning on p. 687 mentions reduced brood rearing in hives with Apistan, while control hives without Apistan had lots of brood. Furthermore, when Apistan was removed, brood rearing resumed. The research and article was by my friend, North Carolina Master Beekeeper Paul Madren. Based on some queries I have made on this topic, this behavior does not seem to be widespread, but does occur in some instances for reasons I do not yet understand. David Martin, Raleigh, NC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:29:30 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nik Mohamed Abdulmajid Subject: Re: List Comments: To: MIDNITEBEE In-Reply-To: <3273CA39.35@cybertours.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, MIDNITEBEE wrote: > David Eyre wrote: > > > > There is a trend developing which bothers me some, and I believe is worthy > > of discussion. It would appear that this list is becoming just a question > > service. By that I mean people ask a question of the list, then arrange the > > answers to go back to the originator and not to the list as a whole. > > If this trend continues all we will be left with is a bunch of > > questions and no answers. I for one joined this list to learn and have my > > questions answered. I have enough questions of my own without looking for > > more, without getting any answers. It's a bit like waiting for the second > > shoe. > > Please could we refrain from this trend. If you put a question, > > arrange it so we all can benefit from the answer. > > Regards to all............ > I agree. > So do I, unless otherwise we are concerned of the space we used in everybodys mail box. OR EVEN THAT, one could simply delete the unwanted messages with just one or two keystrokes. Your computer will not explode, don't worry! Lets give chances to those who are longing for informations which they do not know how to ask. Nik M Abdulmajid ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:11:09 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nik Mohamed Abdulmajid Subject: Re: Federal Funds Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > marcia sinclair writes:" > > > > This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. > > You have to have a thick skin and a sense of humour to last on BEE-L > sometimes, although it is one of the most civilised lists on the net > most of the time. > > My only (slightly negative) comment is that this matter is a local > (US only) political debate ocurring on an *international* list, and > hence maybe a bit out of place. > > But, what the heck, this affords those of us outside the US to have > a few chuckles at America's expense. It's almost as funny as the > flag waving and chest thumping patriotism that get going from time > to time. > > Personally, I don't care if you guys want to get worked up about > this and keep at it right here on what is noramlly a _Bee_ list, > since I have discovered a 'delete' key somewhere here on my keyboard, > and learned how to use it well and often. > > Moreover, if I find someone (Can you say WP, boys and girls?) too > hard to take, I just put him/her in my 'rules' list and 'voila' I > never hear of him again! All email messages with that name > *anywhere* in them -- disappear! > > You may be surprised that I seldom do that to anyone, because out of > a ton of garbage often emerges some wisdom, so I recommend tolerance > and good humour ('humor' for you guys in the US of A). > > Can't we all just get along? > > > > > Regards > > Allen > > W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK > RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 > Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net > Honey. Bees, & Art > BRAVO AND CHEERS TO ALLEN. Nik M Abdulmajid ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 01:05:51 -0500 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Organization: HOLLY-B APIARY Subject: Re: TOCOPHEROILS? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Nachbaur wrote: > > Well this OLd Drone did it again and asked the questions you all > wanted to ask but were afraid to. Here they are and below them you > will find the answers from Ms. Honeynutcherrios, herself. > ---------------------------------------- > hELLO Honeynutcheerios, > > I just purchased a 99 cent box of your product HONEY NUT CHEERIOS so > that I could cut out the bee on the front of the box and send it in > to the "SAVE THE BEES" program. > > I am not a regular dry cereal consumer and I have three questions. > > 1. What is "TOCOPHEROILS" I see listed in the ingredients list on the > side of the box? > > 2. Is this product safe to feed to my cat? > > 3. Just how much Honey is in a box of HONEY NUT CHEERIOS? > > Thank you, > > ---REPLY---- > > From: General Mills <76711.3522@CompuServe.COM> > Date: 28 Oct 96 16:32:09 EST > Subject: Re: TOCOPHEROILS? > > Hi Andy, > > Thank you for inquiring about ingredients in Honey Nut Cheerios. > > The ingredient Tocopherol is a form of Vitamin E. > > The amount of honey in the cereal is propriety information. > > The person to ask, about whether or not this cereal is okay to feed to your > cat, would be a veteranarian. The vet would know what your cat could > be sensitive to. > > If I can be of further assistance, please contact me. > > Sincerely, > > Pam Vlasnik > General Mills Consumer Services > writing at 1:45 PM, > on Monday, October 28, 1996 > -----------------------------end of reply------------------ > > Well now you all know something new about what your kids are eating, > "trisodium phosphate vitamin e (mixed tocopherols) added to preserve > freshness". Sounds like the blue mold off of a old tank of tropical oils > to me, but I am only a food eater and not a food scientist. "What Me > Worry" about getting a little mint oil in the honey...? > > ttul, OLd Drone > > BTW. I think the cat over dosed on the TOCOPHEROLS as he has been out > side a dozen times today trying to dig holes in the cement patio? > > (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document > in any form, or to print for any use. > (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. > --- > ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "Where there are fruits & nuts, there are beekeepers" Thanks!! I needed a good laugh. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:02:25 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pure Jane MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII DATABASE LIST ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:40:30 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Various Bee Markings??? On Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:46:15 -0800 apis writes: >RICHARD BARNES wrote: >> >> Fellow Bee-L'ers, I have a question? >> >> How many different patterns of colors do you find in your hives? >>I ask the above question because these bees have many different patterns of stripes. Some are the standard 6 striped italians, >> some have only very light stripes but the stinger end of the bee is >dark >> nearly a third up the thorax. I even have some bees with no >noticable >> stripes just what at eye site appears to be a yellow bee the drones >are >> solid dark and about 10% of the workers are solid dark. The bees >seem to >> all be getting along. This sounds like a queen that has mated with different strains of drones. I have not always requeened with the same kind of bees, and when one of mine supersedes, it is an integrated hive! I can see italians, carniolans, and whatnot. The cross-strain hybrids seem to be stronger, other things being equal. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:12:05 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Processing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:44 AM 10/29/96 +0000, you wrote: >>I am interested that Chris Allen thinks that letting the bees clean out the >>cappins is a good way to spread disease. I certainly will be more careful in >>the future. But, I am interested to know what the difference between >>lettting the girls clean out cappings and letting them clean out the >>extracted supers is. I also stack those in the woods and let 'em go at it. >> It that also a problem? > >Hi Faith: >I wonder why you (and others, because several have mentioned it) feel the >need the have the bees clean out the supers. I have always understood that >extracted comb should be stored wet with remaining honey as it keeps better >that way. Sure the uncapped honey picks up some moisture and ferments, but >the bees don't seem to mind. In fact maybe they really party when I put >those supers back on :) > >I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that >having some small amount of fermented honey in the comb when you give supers >to the bees has any significant effect on the quality of the honey that they >will later store in those supers. Why risk the spread of disease? > >Regards, Stan > If it was just a question of a small amount of fermented honey, that "might" not be a problem. My experience here in Oregon (the wet part), is that the supers that do not get thoroughly cleaned by the bees end up developing a large amount of mold that slows down honey production since the bees have to clean it first and stains the combs in some cases. Some combs have been so filled with mold and unsanitary looking, that I couldn't imagine eating honey that came from those combs, so melted them down and started over. Rick Grossman 7 hives (so far) and 25 years off and on Newberg (near Portland), Oregon, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:32:55 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: Bee Space and Apistan St Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:53 PM 10/28/96 +0000, you wrote: > REGARDING RE>Bee Space and Apistan Strips > >Tim Sterrett wrote: >>I just removed Apistan strips from seven colonies. In every case, the >tops of the strips were glued (with propolis) to the top bars of the wooden >frames and the strips were glued where they passed down between the top bars. > But (with one exception out of fourteen strips) the part of the strip >between the faces of the wax combs was clean of wax and propolis. > Why don't the bees work on the strips between the frames?< > >Removal of Apistan is an interesting problem. I, too, notice that the strips >are firmly stuck in place to the top bars with propolis. Unlike Tim's >experience, however, I noticed that in the upper brood chamber (but never the >lower), where much fall honey had been stored since the strips were put in >place, in the majority of cases the bees had firmly bound the upper third of >the strips to the adjoining comb. This was often done on both sides of the >strip, making it necessary to slide the hive tool down on both sides also to >loosen it enough for removal. > >This makes me wonder. With what we're hearing about fluvalinate getting into >beeswax, now the reason is becoming very obvious to me: it might transfer >directly from burr comb contact with the Apistan strip. > >Ted Fischer >Dexter, MI, USA > I have had a different experience. In the spring I have noticed that the area directly under the apistan strips are often depressed or worn down compared to the comb surrounding it. This fall most of the tops of the strips were glued down, but I can't speak for the comb between frames since the weather during the time I was removing the strips was not conducive to a detailed examination of the hive. Rick Grossman Newberg, Oregon, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:54:37 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Africanized Honeybees in Nicaragua Do I remember someone here saying that Africanized queens hatch out sooner than europeans, and kill the others off? That would make it hard to breed the strain out! Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:54:37 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: List On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:29:30 +0800 Nik Mohamed Abdulmajid writes: >On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, MIDNITEBEE wrote: > >> David Eyre wrote: >> It would appear that this list is becoming just a question service. By >> that I mean people ask a question of the list, then arrange the >> answers to go back to the originator and not to the list as a >> whole.... This open forum on the subject of Bees is the most healthy expressions of free speech I have seen. Like any right, it also carries a responsibility to respect other's rights, and this caring is evident here much more than many areas around the net. I have learned (and shared) much here, and have made friends. If you would like, I have a copy of a good article on "netiquette," written with some humo(u)r, on my 'puter at work. I will post it tomorrow for those who are not perfect already. (Blow it away if ya are...) Sometimes a thick skin helps, but there are many newbees here, and a little caring goes a long way. (My $.02...) Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:16:31 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >snip< Please could we refrain from this trend. If you put a question, >> arrange it so we all can benefit from the answer. >> Regards to all............ >I agree. > Me too. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:00:17 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:31 29/10/96 +0800, Pure Jane wrote: >.... In Chinese we usually keep Italian bees. This >kind bees are rather tame. They are not so big and looks orange. I've >send some to my fellow in Mexico. He is satisfied with it. If you like , >I could also send you some by air. You may contact me : >Pure Jane >hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn Ohh No!!!! I can foresee some Tropilaelaps on the way..... Cheers from Down-Under ;) Mauricio ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:42:02 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: gibberellic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kelley Rosenlund wrote - > Hello All, > I am trying to get a blueberry account for pollination next > spring(yeah!!!:))) and the foreman mentioned they were considering using > g-acid along with bees to increase pollination. > > Does anyone have experience with this? > > Any side affect to the bees? > > Any other info...? I have no experience of using Gibberellic Acid, but can give you some 'other info'.. Gibberellins are naturally occurring terpenoid compounds that affect cell enlargement/division. They have often been used to transform bush/dwarf varieties of crops to 'normal' size. The actual amount of a Gibberellin needed to cause changes is extremely small, eg 0.006g to change dwarf corn to 'normal' corn. Gibberellins can be used to induce seedlessness - as in the Thompson Seedless grape cultivar - and tend to induce maleness. Grapes are often given 2 treatments, the first to induce seedlessness and the second to increase size. As such, as far as I know, Gibberellic acid does not promote pollination but crop size, (although someone on BEE-L who is really in the know about the use of Gibberellic acid may tell me otherwise). I suspect that whatever the likely effects of GA on bees, the most important factor is whether it will be applied at the time that bees will working the blueberrys - I think this is unlikely because GA is mainly absorbed by plant leaves - and if the owner wishes good pollination he will ensure that it is not. Best wishes Joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings REGARDING RE>Quick 'n Easy Cappings Stan Sandler wrote: >I have always understood that extracted comb should be stored wet with remaining honey as it keeps better that way. Sure the uncapped honey picks up some moisture and ferments, but the bees don't seem to mind. In fact maybe they really party when I put those supers back on :)< I don't know about fermented honey, but the main reason that I always store dry supers is that wax moths are a terrible problem in this area (southeastern Michigan, USA) . They will be into wet supers before cold weather and make a mess out of them, but will not touch dry supers which have also been kept free of brood. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:47:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting eff REGARDING RE>Smoke's long-lasting effects Joel Govostes wrote: >Anyway, smoke must be harmful to some degree. It can be really HOT, too, and we might not be aware of the heat we are blasting the colony with.> In my experience, the heat of smoke is the major problem with its use. Bees *hate* to be burned by hot smoke, which causes the opposite effect than desired: they naturally become defensive. I always pick a handful of green grass, make a loose wad, and put it on top of the smoker fuel. This effectively cools the smoke. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:32:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "John M. Scott" Subject: Re: CENSUS >Fellow Bee-l's > > I must confess that I made an error when I quoted you folks >the fines pertaining to NOT complying to registering hives in Pa. >I went home a checked out the law because something was not right. >I knew I should not have tried to do so from memory! The first >offense is $100. the second $300. and every offense after that is >$1000. I guess I thought one should get a warning first. Sorry for >the misinformation. (Is that politically correct?) > > Ron Harriger > 100 Rhoades St. > Cambridge Springs Pa. 16403 Dear Ron, I am new to Bee keeping, and new to Bee-l's listserv. I did not know about this law about registering hives in Penna. Would you please send a copy of the law, and steps to how and to who you register your hives. Thank you, John M. Scott jmsst147+@pitt.edu Central Cambria Middle School Ebensburg, Pa. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:57:25 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Alexander Subject: Re: Federal Funds Comments: To: John Day In-Reply-To: <199610281841.KAA22618@soquel.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > marcia - this isn't a flame against you, just a little reality check. stop > thinking about how uncle sam can help you out and more about how you can > solve your own problems. > > let the flames begin, i can see it now.... > > (\ John /) > {|||8- in -8|||} > (/ Santa Cruz \) > California > AMEN. dave kg7zq ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:33:43 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Max.Watkins@sandoz.com Subject: Re: Apistan and Brood Production Comments: To: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Sandoz have, of course, conducted tests on Apistan influence (+ve or -ve) on brood and colony development/health; these trials have been performed by various independent bee institutes. All the results that we have suggest no influence [of Apistan treatment] either way. I suppose the one effect that is clear is that treated colonies do not die from Varroa attack. However, with biological material and behaviour being as diverse as they are, it's impossible to say that there will never be an effect of applying any hive treatment to a colony. Apistan has been repeatedly used and tested world-wide but if Sandoz were to receive feedback from beekeepers that treatment was causing colony damage (as some other preparations do), the product would be re-evaluated and possibly removed from the market. Apistan today is as "safe" a hive treatment for bees as you can get and the bonus is that it's good at killing Varroa too! Best regards, Max ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Apistan and Brood Production Author: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU at INTERNET1 Date: 10/29/96 5:25 AM In a message dated 96-10-15 13:23:24 EDT, Matthew_Ter_Molen@development.uchicago.edu (Matthew Ter Molen) writes: << When revising my hives a week ago and pulling the apistan strips I noticed that I had around a 1 or 2 frames of brood per hive but no eggs. However, when I went back yesterday to check they had around 3 to 4 frames of eggs plus frames of capped brood. Now, we've had nice weather recently and we haven't had a hard frost so there is still a lot of aster and goldenrod in bloom and the bees were bringing in a lot of pollen. However, I noticed the correlation last year in that when the strips were in place I saw brood production decrease and then, the minute the strips have been pulled, I see egg laying dramatically increase. Has anyone else experienced this? I don't think that it is weather related, even though there is an obvious decrease in brood production at this time of year because of the cold weather and coming winter. Thanks. Matt Ter Molen >> >> Matt, the phenomenon you described has been experienced and reported before. In the October 1995 ABJ, the article beginning on p. 687 mentions reduced brood rearing in hives with Apistan, while control hives without Apistan had lots of brood. Furthermore, when Apistan was removed, brood rearing resumed. The research and article was by my friend, North Carolina Master Beekeeper Paul Madren. Based on some queries I have made on this topic, this behavior does not seem to be widespread, but does occur in some instances for reasons I do not yet understand. David Martin, Raleigh, NC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:31:38 -0600 Reply-To: berryfarm@earthlink.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Hassett Subject: Electronic monitoring of hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would like to start an experiment to electronically monitor a beehive. Can anyone provide suggestions for senors, placement, past or present experience, theories and considerations? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:51:39 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Victor M. Kroenke" Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Fischer wrote: > > REGARDING RE>Quick 'n Easy Cappings > > Stan Sandler wrote: > >I have always understood that > extracted comb should be stored wet with remaining honey as it keeps better > that way. Sure the uncapped honey picks up some moisture and ferments, but > the bees don't seem to mind. In fact maybe they really party when I put > those supers back on :)< > > I don't know about fermented honey, but the main reason that I always store > dry supers is that wax moths are a terrible problem in this area (southeastern > Michigan, USA) . They will be into wet supers before cold weather and make a > mess out of them, but will not touch dry supers which have also been kept free > of brood. > > Ted Fischer > Dexter, Michigan, USA I have stored supers both ways but gave up the wet storage years ago. I have never had a problem in stacking extracted supers on a 4 wheel wagon and pulling it a few hundred yards away from the hives and letting the bees have at them. I then pull the wagon back to my starage building after dark and store the clean suppers. Early the next morning I can reload and let the bees clean out the next load. With the mite losses and a poor honey flow this year I am thankful not to have had a lot of surplus wet supers in storage to attract moths and ants. I am not sure what effect paradiclorobenzene has on wet honey but suspect it is not good. Vic Kroenke S.E. Kansas,USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:53:55 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Smoke - it lasts for hours In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > Hi > > Because we now have the capability to continuously measure bee flight in > and out of 21 hives located in Maryland, we are in the process of > examining the effects of a wide array of external stressors on honey bee > behavior. > > We looked at smoke. Two small (and I mean really small) puffs of smoke at > the entrance, wait 2 minutes, puff twice more and then watch the results. > > Because the wind was blowing perpendicular to the row of hives, only one > got most of the 4 puffs of smoke, others got less than 4 puffs, and some > adjacent "unsmoked" hives got a bit of smoke drift. > > In less than two minutes, the numbers of outgoing bees dropped off > dramatically in the "smoked" hives. But closer examination showed the > numbers of outgoing bees decreased in all hives, even those just getting a > bit of drift. Numbers of incoming bees, as expected, did not change much. > > But here's the interesting part, we smoked the bees early in the afternoon > and the effect lasted through the evening - they never returned to full > activity as compared to flight for the previous or following days. Not > surprisingly, the more smoke, the more obvious the effect. Hi Jerry and All, This goes along with some of the old writting about, not working with your bees all the time. I know that bees do get upset if you smoke them too much.You will have many more bees hanging on the front of the hive. Having the Bees set up in MD with the ability to count flight numbers , is a great tool.This is a big step forward. It will bring up even more questions on Bee behavior.We should get some answers also. Pheromones and smoke is very interesting.The why , smoke will calm a hive down , should lead us to , what is the best smoke? See it never ends. Has there been any work done on different smoking material.Beekeepers work that out on there own.I know some smoke is mild and others will knock you over if your in its path. This is a very good subject and thanks to those working on it. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:55:13 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Apistan and Brood Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > << When revising my hives a week ago and pulling the apistan strips > << I noticed that I had around a 1 or 2 frames of brood per hive > << but no eggs. However, when I went back yesterday to check > << they had around 3 to 4 frames of eggs plus frames of capped > << brood. > << However, I noticed the correlation last year in that when the > << strips were in place I saw brood production decrease and > << then, the minute the strips have been pulled, I see egg > << laying dramatically increase. > Sandoz have, of course, conducted tests on Apistan influence > (+ve or -ve) on brood and colony development/health; these > trials have been performed by various independent bee > institutes. All the results that we have suggest no influence > [of Apistan treatment] either way. I suppose the one effect > that is clear is that treated colonies do not die from Varroa > attack. There are a number of things that can cause queens to stop laying. we notice that sometimes the queens stop laying during rainy days in the spring. It is quite possible that apistan *may* reduce egg laying, however the real question -- and what has likely been measured-- is whether Apistan reduced actual *brood* rearing (as distinct from egg laying). These are twovery differnt things. At many times during the year, queens will lay many, many eggs that do not become sealed brood. The loss of this egg laying in itself will not affect the colony. The deeper question is whether the presence of apistan affects the queen -- either in short term, or in more permanent ways. Tests with queen tabs seem to show that queen cage tabs have deleterious effects on queens that increase with time and ultimately end with mortality. However in hives, using recommended rates and durations of application, my understanding is that the evidence is that queens are not affected enough to harm the colony, although obviously there has to be *some* effect of introducing a toxin. Apistan is --like many of our control agents -- a selective poison that has to be administered in measured doses. we try to use enough to hamstring or kill the pest without the effects on the host becoming significant. this is a tradeoff. No one has ever claimed that Apistan is *good* for the bees in the absence of varroa. It is simply less harmfull by many orders of magnitude than the pest it controls. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:05:59 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Smoke - it lasts for hours In-Reply-To: <199610290044.UAA03135@bud.peinet.pe.ca> from "Stan Sandler" at Oct 28, 96 08:44:24 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, this is a research paper in the making and we plan lots of further investigations for next spring. But I promise, full publication. Someone asked about reps, in the initial test, we smoked 3 colonies, skipped 4 (that got some drift). Degree of response and length depended on how much smoke actually got into the colony (qualitative observation - this was a quick and dirty trial). Next step, develop a calibrated smoker so we can get some idea of just how much smoke (or other chemical) was injected. I will post some examples to the web, but right now I am wrapping bees in MT and have to fly back to MD to close down the tests there. Oh yes, smoke was cool. We use plastic front porches with electronics, so it has to be cool or we cook the counters. Cheers Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:31:14 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Apistan and Brood Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Max > Apistan has been repeatedly used and tested world-wide but if Sandoz were to > receive feedback from beekeepers that treatment was causing colony damage (as > some other preparations do), the product would be re-evaluated and possibly > removed from the market. Please can you be more specific about 'the other preparations that cause colony damage'? Best wishes Joe joe.hemmens@ndirect.co.uk Park House, Golberdon, Cornwall UK 01579382652 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:50:16 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Processing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > If it was just a question of a small amount of fermented honey, that "might" > not be a problem. My experience here in Oregon (the wet part), is that the > supers that do not get thoroughly cleaned by the bees end up developing a > large amount of mold that slows down honey production since the bees have to > clean it first and stains the combs in some cases. Some combs have been so > filled with mold and unsanitary looking, that I couldn't imagine eating > honey that came from those combs, so melted them down and started over. In NZ the experience is pretty much the same. Most (but not all) beekeepers prefer to 'dry' combs. For commercial outfits, that generally uses one of two methods: (1) stacking extracted supers in an apiary and letting them be robbed out. This restricts the potential for AFB spread, but I can tell you the apiary gets to know you! They're waiting at the gate when your truck arrives, and you can't get the supers off fast enough! (2) stacking the supers on hives in one or more yards. Better, but still a hassle to do. They only have to stay there a day or two before they get 'licked out'. I can't remember the name just now, but I *think* it was called a 'Johnson floor', a device I recall from an old NZ Journal of Agriculture article. It was basically a 'floor behind a floor'. Imagine a normal floorboard, with an extra gap out the back - to anothe floorboard, that doesn't have another other ins/outs. So you can stack wet supers on the 'back' floorboard, and the only access to them is from the hive on the front floorboard. The idea was that they would then be able to clean out the wet supers. It would be an easy matter to stack more boxes on/take boxes off without disturbing the hive in any way. I've never seen this used, as I say - only an article from the (probably) 1940s or so... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:54:22 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Far North adapted bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In a message dated 96-10-27 01:16:38 EST, you write: > ><< A good friend of mine, who is not hooked into the net, has requested that >I ask about > honeybee strains adapted to a climate like ours. > >> > >I would suggest that you try the ARS-Y-C-1 Yugoslavian Stock. This stock has >shown to have some of the best wintering traits of any we have evaluated here >at HBI. >I would then take the survivors and raise queens from them the following >generation. > >Dean M. Breaux >Hybri-Bees Inc. >Breeding Better Bees We have at least one bee breeder here in the Anchorage Alaska who breeds Queens they are reasonably successefull . Our problem here is we are a small market so everything is small time. In addition in the same way that I suspect is the same , A lot of beekeepers do not like each other this shrinks the market even smaller. Finally some beekeepers simply want to do thier own thing and be left alone. I have made it a point to find out as much as possible who most of them are and what they are doing but in trying to bring this information to the larger group I found myself meeting tremendous resistance. I decided to claim failier on that account and go on my own the same as the rest of the so called rugged indiviulist. But if the list wantst any of this info I have collected , I will share my beekeeping obssetion with them. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:19:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: List & Summaries, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David Eyre wrote. >> > It would appear that this list is >> > becoming just a question service. By that I mean people ask a >> > question of the list, then arrange the answers to go back to the >> > originator and not to the list as a whole. Allen Dick wrote >Actually, this behaviour is quite proper etiquette -- and de rigeur >-- especially on larger lists than this. >(For a number of reason(s) BEE-L never seems to grow much. >Ironically , one of the reasons that many give for leaving the list >is the amount of 'chatter' that gets going periodically. Others >tire of the same basic questions arising repeatedly. Some get their >feelings or sensitivities hurt when controversy or bad manners break >out). Once again my message has been misconstrued. My observation, once again, is that more and more folks are setting the 'reply to' heading back to themselves and not the Bee-L. Allen does it every time! So if you don't have the experience to note this you don't get your point across to the whole Bee-L. Is this not a rather insidious method of censorship? > >Actually, since this topic (summaries) has come up, I admit I have >been feeling a bit guilty because I owe the list a two summaries: >One on the question of disease and beekeepers, and the other on the >question of oils for mite control. >And as far as the essential oils thing, I doubt I will be able to >summarise it fairly, since all the info I got has spread like >wildfire -- right or wrong -- over the net and beekeeping >newsletters. All I can say id I hope it really does work, because an >uncritical beekeeping public has swallowed the idea whole. This last is really to close to the knuckle. To call us all "uncritical and have swallowed the whole idea", you are implying that there is something drastically wrong with us and the whole idea. Perhaps you would condescend to share your research with us that shows flaws in the method. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 09:31 29/10/96 +0800, Pure Jane wrote: >>.... In Chinese we usually keep Italian bees. This >>kind bees are rather tame. They are not so big and looks orange. I've >>send some to my fellow in Mexico. He is satisfied with it. If you like , >>I could also send you some by air. You may contact me : >>Pure Jane >>hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn Mauricio Montes-Castillo wrote> >Ohh No!!!! I can foresee some Tropilaelaps on the way..... >Cheers from Down-Under ;) Methinks something dirty is afoot! Isn't this how Varroa and T-mites got across the pond from Europe? Perhaps it should be pointed out that this is a no-no. The same person also wants to export honey to the States!!!!!??? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:39:30 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Africanized Honeybees in Nicaragua MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerry Visel wrote: > > Do I remember someone here saying that Africanized queens hatch out > sooner than europeans, and kill the others off? That would make it hard > to breed the strain out! > > Gerry Another good reason to try breeding within the AHB strain. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:17:41 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guillermo Jacoby Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pure Jane wrote: > > Notint that Guillermo Jacoby has problems for Africanized honey bees I > remember that the problem is the greatest trouble in Mexico and Braizel's > bee keeping. The bees are too attactive and cause so many difficulties in > managing. In fact the best way is to get new bee queens to gradually > replace the older ones. In Chinese we usually keep Italian bees. This > kind bees are rather tame. They are not so big and looks orange. I've > send some to my fellow in Mexico. He is satisfied with it. If you like , > I could also send you some by air. You may contact me : > Pure Jane > hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn Hi Pure Jane, I would like to receive some by air, how long would they last, in your experience how long does it takes to get here? How much would it cost me? Saludes (Regards in Spanish), Guillermo Jacoby AHBeekeeper from Nicaragua ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:05:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects Joel, I know a local beekeeper that uses "liquid smoke" (product used to enhance meat) in a quart squirt bottle. It smells like smoke and he mists the hive as you and I would smoke one. He swears by it. Andy could fill you in on more he knows this guy. Brian Tassey Kaykin@aol.com Atwater, CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:32:42 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 09:31 29/10/96 +0800, Pure Jane wrote: >>.... In Chinese we usually keep Italian bees. .... >>.... If you like, I could also send you some by air. .... >Ohh No!!!! I can foresee some Tropilaelaps on the way..... The previous answer raises a very important point about sending bees around the world. Some areas like Australia, New Zealand and Hawaii (there may be others) do not have the pests and diseases the have nearly destroyed beekeeping in other parts of the world. These places are anxious to remain free of disease and impose strict rules about importing bees and other apiary products. Some places take the simple option and prohibited all imports. Others allow some imports under strict conditions. For example, Australia allows the import of breeder queens. Prior permission is required and the queens are quarantined when they arrive. This procedure has intercepted several cases where the imported queens carried undesirable pathogens, pests and genes(AHB). Imports of honey from some countries is banned. Beekeepers around the world must respect these regulations. One day the gene pool from these sanctuaries may be required to rebuild an apiary industry destroyed by disease in your part of the world. Pure Jane's offer to send some queens by air mail may have been well intentioned but it could also cause a lot of trouble. For GOD's Sake before you attempt to send (or take delivery of) a bee beyond you own patch , check out what procedures are required. Varroa is not native to North America or Britain and bees suffering from it did not fly there by them selves. Some beekeeper sent varroa to those countries. Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:38:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Re: Far North adapted bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:25 PM 10/28/96 -0500, you wrote: > > Tom & Carol Elliott wrote. > >>We are at @latitude 61 degrees north, but with a marine influence. We can >not count >>of flying days between October 1st and April 1st. >> Temperatures normally range from about 20 degrees >>Farenheit (about -6 Celsius) to -10 F (about -20 C). One big factor is the >length of >>darkness we 'enjoy' during the winter months. Dave Eyre wrote: >I would suggest the first move might be to find a strain of Northern bees. > > We don't 'suffer' the dark, but our temp are about the same. Last >winter we had snow cover from the first week in Nov till the middle of Feb. Hello Tom,Carol,Dave and all Bee-Liners: My hope is that this thread will expand and flourish, as it is an area of beekeeping in which I am particularly interested. I only have 5 years experience over-wintering bees and its only been in the last 2 or 3 that I felt knowledgable enough to even have an opinion on this subject based on my observations but here goes FWIW. I am located in the NE corner of Vermont, USA. My latitude is approx 43 deg North. Our winters seem closely aligned with Tom and Dave in terms of length with OCt 1 being the date in which temps and 'good flying' weather diminish. This October we have had 10-12 'good' days. From now on these days will dwindle quickly. November is notorious for being bleak. Someone told me just the other day that the highest number of suicides in Vermont each year occur in November. But I digress. Our temps throughout winter can range from the low to mid 20's F to -30+F, with the coldest period being the month of January (for the most part). The duration of Sub-zero weather can be 1 - 2 days to 7 -10 at a stretch. (On December 2nd 1989 it went to -21F and didn't get above zero until January 3rd, 1990!...my first winter in Vermont!!! Brrrrr....)The spring temps don't reach above 30F until the middle of April. It seems that our biggest problem is the mid-winter thaws that are typical for this area. Temps can get up into the high 40's for a few days in late January or February. Then in the space of one night they plunge back to single digits. This really stresses the hives. Many break cluster and can't re-cluster before the cold weather returns. The main difference between us and Alaska of course is the length of daylight. Now that we're back to standard time, Sunset is at 4:30PM and will be pretty close to 4:00PM by the time December 21st gets here. Sunrise is about 6:00AM. I know that this 'day' is way longer than what you folks get in Alaska at mid-winter, and I wonder if this could be a major factor in over-wintering your bees. Your winter temps are balmy by our standards, probably because of the oceanic influence. When I first started beekeeping, Vermont had a ban on importing bees from outside the state. This was a futile attempt at keeping varroa out. The ban was lifted in 1992 (don't quote me on the year). Before then I purchased splits from my mentor. After the ban was lifted I bought bees from down south, not for any other reason than I thought that's where all good little bees came from. I shopped around some and settled on Double Hybrids from the York Bee Co. in Jesup Georgia, USA. They have been my primary supplier ever since. I am happy to report (knocking on an inner cover for luck) that the only winter kills that I have experienced have been because of my own ineptness or lack of understanding. I'll spare you the depressing details. I have tried the various forms of wrapping, insulating, ventilating etc... and have finally settled on locating the hives with a southern exposure, not wrapping or insulating, providing upper entrances for ventilation and cleansing flights and placing stockade fencing as a wind break from the prevailing northwest winds. I leave accumulated snow around the hives, but I do clear away snow from the south-facing fronts. I am highly satisfied with this approach. (But Allen's recent ominous musings re:feeding honey, will haunt me for the rest of my days!) Now Vermonters are an independent bunch, and I suspect most beekeepers everywhere are equally independent. It seems to me that for as many beekeepers that I have met, so to are there at least that many different ways of dealing with the same problem. If I am at one extreme (not insulating) there is another fellow up the road who has his hives encased in 2" thick polystyrene foam insulation, with a super or deep over the inner cover filled with fiberglass insulation, with just as much success at over-wintering as I have had. Go figure. My point in this short story made long is that the origin of the bees doesn't seem to relate to survivability in my experience. My suspicion is that it is most closely related to the breed, but I don't have enough knowledge on this topic to have any more than a gut feeling. I look forward to reading more about this fascinating topic. Sorry for the length. I'm home alone this week and have no one else to talk to! ;-( Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:10:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Apistan and Brood Pro > I suppose the one effect that is clear is that treated colonies do not > die from Varroa attack. Hello All, I wonder if any of you would be so kind as to cite one or more research papers that shows that one hive has died from so called "VARROA ATTACK" other then antidotal ones? Like one bee scientists added x, x2, x1000 numbers of varroa to healthy hives and found that x100 was the fatal numbers. You might also add the science that shows the level of infestation that treatment with this product should begin. I try to keep up on all the beekeeping scientific literature but I seemed to have missed that one. M>Apistan today is as "safe" a hive treatment for bees as you can get and the >bonus is that it's good at killing Varroa too! Yes, and according to the Canadian farm papers this company is doing a good job selling this product in Canada to control the dreaded trachea mites. I must admit that I have missed the efficacy studies on the use of this product for this pest but I have no doubt that a company as large as this has any problems buying any research it needs with a $40 million product development budget or was it $30 million? "Safe treatment", Thats 100% true for a large list of chemicals, and some natural ones that would cost about five cents a hive to use. In fact I have never seen a chemical company say less about their products, they all claim safe if use as directed until a problem develops and we all find out what "safe" means the next trip out to our bee yards. Reminds me of my non English speaking neighbors who came over for a translation of 'spade, when a dog they had been told was spaded give birth to 14 puppies... For sure this product continues to bee the politically correct one for US beekeepers to use as it is the only one allowed in the US...which in itself reeks of a real sweet deal and a real sweet 'honey-moon for this company. (Translation, a federal licence to steal from a captive market.) M>Apistan has been repeatedly used and tested world-wide but if Sandoz M>were to receive feedback from beekeepers that treatment was causing M>colony damage (as some other preparations do), the product would be M>re-evaluated and possibly removed from the market. Little I have read displays better the real arrogance of the chemical industry then this last paragraph and a free shot at the competition to boot. We all know they are always the dirty guys. If we beekeepers don't like how this product is working and bad mouth it they will pull it off the market... What a load of BS... like this was the first time this company ever heard from beekeeper to report a antidotal comment of a negative effect or NO effect from use of their product. What ever happened to the old "guarantee of satisfaction or your money back"? It would take multiple law suits from beekeepers from every corner of the world before this company would stop selling this product and it would be a first when this company concedes that antidotal reports from end users were worth the effort to answer them, (as you was not done here), or a reason to pull such a financially successful product out of a captive market. To do less would admit liability and set a lot of beekeepers up for a nice refund. The only thing that will replace this product in the market is a competitive product that beekeepers would find to be as effective, safe to use, and/or cost less as they have been hooked on chemical control no thanks to this companies promotion budget to advertise a product with NO competition in all the beekeeping trade magazines some which only happen to be the major suppliers of their product but I would guess that is a small part of that $30, or was it $20 million development cost. ttul Andy- California (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa2.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:43:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: mites and vermont honey bees (fwd) Comments: To: General questions Comments: cc: dag1111 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Meli: Thanks for the message. I am forwarding your message to a couple of electronic networks to see if someone will contact you from Vermont. Tom Sanford ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:36:57 -0500 (EST) From: dag1111 To: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU Subject: mites and vermont honey bees Dear Mr. Sanford, I am a 11th grade student at the Putney School in Vermont and I am starting or should I say renewing the Putney Honey Bee Hives as my spring prroject. Right now I'm researching the mite and bee symbiosis and have downloaded some articles from 1993 from the Florida Ext. Beekeeping Newsletter. I need updated info about bee keeping and in particular the mite infestation in Vermont. Is there anybody in Southern Vermont that (Brattleboro area) that can help me? Please send what you can to Meli_Glenn@Pegasus.com or Snail Mail to Meli Glenn The Putney Schoool Elm Lee Farm Putney, VT 05346 Thank you in advance for whatever you can do to help me with this project. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: gibberellic acid In a message dated 96-10-28 17:00:53 EST, you write: << I am trying to get a blueberry account for pollination next spring(yeah!!!:))) and the foreman mentioned they were considering using g-acid along with bees to increase pollination. Does anyone have experience with this? >> I hope I'm not raining on your parade; but, in my experience, it's hard to get honeybees to work rabbiteye blueberries. There is so much else in bloom at the same time. Conditions may vary in your area. They do, however work the daylights out of northern varieties of blueberries. There is another problem with southern rabbiteyes, even if the honeybees will work them. That is that they are much better pollinated by buzzing, which releases the pollen better. Other species of bees seem to do a better job here than honeybees. Try Dr. Cane at Auburn U. He has done a lot of work on this. I've not had experience with gibberellic acid/pollination. I would not expect it to have much effect on pollination, as it is a plant growth hormone. Are you sure they are not referring to pheromones to attract bees? I doubt that gibberellic acid would hurt bees, at any rate. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:00:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Commerical Beekeeping in Uganda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I write for some Ugandan friends who have started a small community >based bee keeping operation for commerical honey production. They are >starting at the basics and would appreciate any correspondence to aid them >in developing a viable business....Thank you, Mike > Habari yako Mike: I am a small commercial beekeeper in Prince Edward Island, Canada with about 200 hives, and I produce both honey, and rent out the hives for pollination of blueberries. I know a little about top bar hives, but am no expert. I know a fair bit about processing and marketing honey. I have been to Kenya a couple of times and have visited some women's groups that an organization that I belong to had sponsored (some had done some beekeeping). The organization is called Farmers Helping Farmers (Wakulima Wasaidia Wakulima) and works with the Kenya National Farmers Union. If I can be of any assistance your friends can contact me. The address of the organization that Hans mentioned would probably be a better start for them. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:04:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David J Trickett Subject: Re: Apistan and Brood Pro In-Reply-To: <9610291914201159@beenet.com> from "Andy Nachbaur" at Oct 30, 96 00:10:00 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy, I think the lexicographers are going to have to add your name to the list of examples they include following dictionary entries for the word, "curmudgeon!" I may not always agree with you but you make me proud to have been raised in the Golden State! Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Far North adapted bees In a message dated 96-10-29 21:46:10 EST, tpeters@KingCon.com (Tim Peters) writes: << .......After the ban was lifted I bought bees from down south, not for any other reason than I thought that's where all good little bees came from. I shopped around some and settled on Double Hybrids from the York Bee Co. in Jesup Georgia, USA. They have been my primary supplier ever since. (snip) My point in this short story made long is that the origin of the bees doesn't seem to relate to survivability in my experience. My suspicion is that it is most closely related to the breed, but I don't have enough knowledge on this topic to have any more than a gut feeling. >> (Probably not known by some folks) Because so much of the southern trade has always been with northern customers, the breeding stock usually has originated from northern stock. No good queen breeder would want his stock to get a bad reputation because it didn't survive northern winters. Actually, especially on the west coast, a lot of the breeders were selected from Canadian stock in past years. I don't know if that is still going on, but the genetic remnants are probably still with us. Personally, for my own use (here in southeastern USA), I've generally had better luck with my own queens than with boughten ones. I'm sure I am not any more skilled in the process, just that I chose bees adapted to my locale and management style, whenever I choose the bees that do best in my operation. (So I suppose I'd probably not have a very good bee for northern use. Of course my clients could pick their own best stock and I could graft from them. If fact this is frequently done. Several commercial operations do select their own stock for queens, and have the southern queen breeders use it.) Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:37:06 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pure Jane Subject: Re: Africanized Honeybees in Nicaragua In-Reply-To: <19961029.011140.2407.0.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Gerry Visel wrote: > Do I remember someone here saying that Africanized queens hatch out > sooner than europeans, and kill the others off? That would make it hard > to breed the strain out! > > Gerry > I know a friend in Mexico who has successfully import a new bee queen to institute the Africanized honeybee breed. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:40:30 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pure Jane Subject: Re: List In-Reply-To: <19961029.011140.2407.1.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear sir, I'd like to read the article. May I have the honour? Pure Jane On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Gerry Visel wrote: > On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:29:30 +0800 Nik Mohamed Abdulmajid > writes: > >On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, MIDNITEBEE wrote: > > > >> David Eyre wrote: > >> It would appear that this list is becoming just a question service. By > >> that I mean people ask a question of the list, then arrange the > >> answers to go back to the originator and not to the list as a > >> whole.... > > This open forum on the subject of Bees is the most healthy expressions > of free speech I have seen. Like any right, it also carries a > responsibility to respect other's rights, and this caring is evident here > much more than many areas around the net. I have learned (and shared) > much here, and have made friends. > > If you would like, I have a copy of a good article on "netiquette," > written with some humo(u)r, on my 'puter at work. I will post it > tomorrow for those who are not perfect already. (Blow it away if ya > are...) > > Sometimes a thick skin helps, but there are many newbees here, and a > little caring goes a long way. > > (My $.02...) > > > Gerry and the other Visels at > Visel7@juno.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:00:57 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Africanized Honeybees in Nicaragua In-Reply-To: <19961029.011140.2407.0.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <19961029.011140.2407.0.visel7@juno.com>, Gerry Visel writes >Do I remember someone here saying that Africanized queens hatch out >sooner than europeans, and kill the others off? That would make it hard >to breed the strain out! > >Gerry Yes, I posted that. The "Equinox" programme that was shown in the UK on 13th October suggested that the africanized queens emerged from the cell up to one day earlier than their european rivals. This gave the africanized queen a distinct advantage over the european queen in terms of being able to dominate the colony before a rival emerged. I have fired a couple of questions at Channel 4 about the programme but, as yet, I haven't received a reply. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:49:48 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pure Jane Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <199610292128.QAA14188@segwun.muskoka.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear sir, I don't think a kind suggestion should get so much bad words!!!!! China is one of the main countries in apiculture but now more than half of her bees are Italian bees. We accept Italian bees for their characters are suitable to our conditions. I don't think all the products from a third world country inferior to that of a developed country but most of you gentlemen have this thought. You just mean all the dirty were from poorer countries and ignore the facts the health conditions are being stressed in our countries and all the living things that imported and exported should pass a strict examination. I don't want to waste too much time but have to say something. Pure Jane On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, David Eyre wrote: > >At 09:31 29/10/96 +0800, Pure Jane wrote: > >>.... In Chinese we usually keep Italian bees. This > >>kind bees are rather tame. They are not so big and looks orange. I've > >>send some to my fellow in Mexico. He is satisfied with it. If you like , > >>I could also send you some by air. You may contact me : > >>Pure Jane > >>hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn > > Mauricio Montes-Castillo wrote> > >Ohh No!!!! I can foresee some Tropilaelaps on the way..... > >Cheers from Down-Under ;) > > Methinks something dirty is afoot! Isn't this how Varroa and T-mites got > across the pond from Europe? Perhaps it should be pointed out that this is a > no-no. > The same person also wants to export honey to the States!!!!!??? > > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * > * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * > * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * > * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * > **************************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:19:51 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morten Brixtofte Petersen Subject: Chinese beekeeping? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all! Since now bee-l reaches China I feel this a great oportunity to know more about chinese beekeeping. So Pure Jane could you tell us (me) something about your beekeeping? My special interests would be : Do you have Varroa? - since when? What do you do about it? Perhaps you have got another approach to this problem than others? Regards from Denmark, Europe Morten Petersen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:37:39 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morten Brixtofte Petersen Subject: Vulnerable Varroa? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all! To my knowledge most (all?) organisms on this earth suffer from some pests = - microriganisms (diseases), parasites etc.=20 Thus I suppose that something somewere is feeding on varroa, infecting = this mite. The fact that varroa jumped to another host (from A. cerana too = A. mellifera) could mean that it left behind some of its problems of life. So is there anyone out there searching for hyperparasites of varroa, = viruses of Varroa, etc. Let=B4s say (dreaming) that Varroa had a kind of mite sucking on it and = that we could enhance it=B4s damage to Varroa by our management practice - = nice thought :-) I now it is difficault working with theese things (they are so small, = living hidden etc), but there must be possabilities in this. regards=20 Morten Petersen >From Denmark, Europe (56 deg. N, costal climate) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:56:35 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GAVIN JOHNSTON Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: AHB success!!! Hi All. Many people seem to be genuinely scared of working with the Africanized strain. Admittedly they can be incredibly aggressive, but this could/should be put to some valuable use. In some areas predators are a problem with animals knocking over hives etc. If there is a strain of bees that can handle predators , it is the Africans. They are also potentially extremely good producers in fairly arid environments. I've met a few people from the Transvaal (South Africa) who work on a day to day basis with these bees (A.m.scutellata - the fearsome Killer bee of the Americas) and do very well from them. Don't forget the beesuits and gloves and boots. Cheers Gavin Johnston Rhodes University Bee Laboratory Grahamstown South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Pure Jane wrote: I've >> send some to my fellow in Mexico. He is satisfied with it. If you like , >> I could also send you some by air. You may contact me : >> Pure Jane >> hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn > >Hi Pure Jane, > >I would like to receive some by air, how long would they last, in your >experience how long does it takes to get here? How much would it cost >me? > >Saludes (Regards in Spanish), > >Guillermo Jacoby >AHBeekeeper from Nicaragua I have been watching this thread with some humour up to now. Please would someone knowledgeable about the laws governing the mailing of bees around the world comment on this. Hopefully it is NOT LEGAL to just mail bees from a country where tropilaelaps exists to another continent where it doesn't (although with all the problems in Nicaragua I'm sure that bee inspection is not much of a priority}. Jane: I don't think David Eyre was referring to your honey as "dirty", or putting down Chinese beekeepers in any way. It was my impression that he was just upset about the mailing of bees (as I am). This is a very dangerous practice. Guillermo: I have very gentle bees, but when I have had beekeepers visit from Togo and Surinam who are used to working with African or Africanized bees, both said that there were many ADVANTAGES to their bees. They are good honey producers and very disease resistant. I suggest (humbly, because I know that working with defensive bees is no picnic) that you take the suggestion of our colleague in Brazil who offered to send you information on how to work with Africanized bees. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:11:45 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: gibberellic acid >Gibberellins are naturally occurring terpenoid compounds that affect >cell enlargement/division. > >Gibberellins can be used to induce seedlessness - as in the Thompson >Seedless grape cultivar - and tend to induce maleness. Great! It will turn all your bees into giant impotent drones!! ;-) Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:11:45 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Amitraz Status Respected Bee Persons, (and the rest of ya too! ;-) ) While corresponding with an international beekeeper, he mentioned using a product "BIPIN," that had Amitraz as the active (only?) ingredient. It got dissolved in water and poured (?) on the bees between the frames, if I understood him correctly. I believe recall seeing this stuff advertized here in the US about five years ago (for both mites??) but have not seen or heard anything recently. Can anyone tell me why it was withdrawn, if it was? What cautions should he observe? Does it hurt the bees? Thanks in advance, Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:18:06 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: List & Summaries, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > David Eyre wrote. > >> > It would appear that this list is > >> > becoming just a question service. By that I mean people ask a > >> > question of the list, then arrange the answers to go back to > >> > the originator and not to the list as a whole. > > Allen Dick wrote > >Actually, this behaviour is quite proper etiquette -- and de rigeur > >-- especially on larger lists than this. > > >(For a number of reason(s) BEE-L never seems to grow much. > >Ironically , one of the reasons that many give for leaving the list > >is the amount of 'chatter' that gets going periodically. Others > >tire of the same basic questions arising repeatedly. Some get > >their feelings or sensitivities hurt when controversy or bad > >emanners break out). > > Once again my message has been misconstrued. My observation, once > again, is that more and more folks are setting the 'reply to' > heading back to themselves and not the Bee-L. Allen does it every > time! So if you don't have the experience to note this you don't get > your point across to the whole Bee-L. Is this not a rather > insidious method of censorship? Well, actually, I don't think i misconstrued what you said. I just think that maybe you did not say exactly what you meant on your first try. Setting the reply default in one's mail program to one's self is a reasonable and correct thing to do. The reason it is necessary is that the return path method of source determination on the net is flawed and unreliable. To set it to any address but one's own would be improper. When this header line is left blank, perhaps then the return path method will be used be used and returns will go to the re-mailer. (LISTSERV) Franlkly I don't know. At any rate, I recall having remarked to the list on this very matter when it seemed to me that BEE-L started to set the return address to the sender rather than the list -- some year or so ago. at that time I started to get mail meant for the list when people replied to my posts. I'm not sure exactly what happened at that time. Nonetheless, this is proper and of course the real answer is that people should check their headers before sending. If they don't, it is much better that their comments go to an individual than the list. (You may recall a particular occasion where you would much have preffered that that had happened, David ;)) I personally make a habit of returning posts that appear to meant for 'all' rather than just me, so that they can be sent to all their intended recipients. I know how long I spend grinding out a reply and polishing it so that it is clear and so that I don't accidently offend someone I don't wish to. I expect that if others work as hard on their posts as I do, that they surely deserve to have them posted. > >I hope it really does work, because an uncritical beekeeping > >public has swallowed the idea whole. > > This last is really to close to the knuckle. To call us all > "uncritical and have swallowed the whole idea", you are implying > that there is something drastically wrong with us and the whole > idea. Perhaps you would condescend to share your research with us > that shows flaws in the method. 1. well, I suspect we do not speak the same language, because what I said is not what you got out of it. It is the very lack of research -- for or against -- that caused me to write what I did. (If you choose to identify yourself with the 'uncritical beekeeping public' rather than the elite and informed group that populates BEE-l, then you have *chosen* to be insulted, since I asumed that you would know better than fall for untested 'cures'). 2. You'll notice that I do try to avoid inflammatory words such as 'drastically wrong' and ' condescend' and ' insidious', in favour of more neutral words where possible. I don't think 'uncritical' is a particularly hard word. But... if so, well, then I'm sorry, but that's the way it is: to my knowledge there is simply insufficient evidence on hand _yet_ for any educated person to be able to responsibly recommend a safe, certain and effective treatment methodfor routinely using oils in a commercial beekeeping setting. Maybe (hopefully) you'll prove me wrong by publishing a bibliograpy of studies by resepected researches at well known bee research institutions that somehow slipped by me. I'd love to be proven wrong. There are hopeful signs, and some semi-scientific studies that point the way, but at present it appears these substances have little scientific legitimacy (even if they seem to sometimes work). Correct me if I am wrong. I truly hope oils prove to work. I intend to watch closely, and test them where i have opportunity. But, speaking as a realist (read cynic, perhaps) , it does seem entirely too fortuitous that wintergreen, peppermint, tea tree, and even our old hippy favourite, Patchouli oil, all work comparable miracles. from what I have read, the methods of application are somewhat indirect and difficult, and errors in application are blamed for cases where failure occurs -- so it's hardly foolproof. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I can do any better, or that i do not appreciate all the work being done in backyards and what has been received from Europe. All I did say -- and am saying -- is that the matter is not sufficiently researched and that the answers arecurrently only promising. At this point in time religious fervour in favour of oils is premature. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:56:47 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: NETIQUETTE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bee listers, Well, I warned you all yesterday. This was a "lesson" on internet usage from Patrick Crispin, part of his Roadmap 96 "class." This lesson is forwarded with his permission. I learned a lot from his series. Like I said, if you are perfect already, feel free to blow this away... QUOTE: MAP07: NETIQUETTE "When thou enter a city abide by its customs." -- The Talmud We have covered a lot of ground this week. We learned how the three levels of connectivity differ, how to read an e-mail address, that letters are sent to the list address and commands to the LISTSERV address, and we even looked at the world of other mailing list programs. The Internet, however, is made up of more than computers and commands. All of the computers and commands would be useless if it were not for the people who use them. The commands are neat but it is the PEOPLE who make the Internet what it is. The problem is that every grouping of people develops its own culture and common rules that govern the behavior of the people. Today's lesson is going to give you an insider's look at how to avoid some of the mistakes that EVERYONE makes when they start out on the Internet. If you can take what is said in this lesson to heart, you are going to find that your travels on the Information Superhighway will be a whole lot smoother. The following "Netiquette" guide (netiquette is the common way to describe the etiquette of the Internet) was written by my father, the Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen. I think you will soon see where my sense of humor comes from. :) In fact, it was because of my dad that I first got onto the Internet. I got an e-mail account so that I could e-mail him and ask him for money. ----- NETIQUETTE by the Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen (Patrick Crispen's daddy) One of these days you're going to get tired of Web surfing or listening in on LISTSERVs, IRCs, Usenet newsgroups or whatever, and you're going to want to say something yourself. At that moment your life will change. Let's see if we can't make that a change for the better. EVANGELISM: Everyone is tempted from time to time to evangelize, to stride boldly into the enemy's camp and throw down the gauntlet. We will never see the end of people who pop up on "comp.sys.intel" praising Macs and Amigas; who send mail to the SKEPTIC list that flying saucers really, truly do exist; who enlighten the Buddhist newsgroups that they're all bound for hell, and on and on. In the entire history of the Net, no one has managed to do this without looking like a complete idiot. If you believe you are the one person who will succeed where millions have failed, then you're ready to learn about ... FLAMES: There is nothing you can say that won't offend somebody: >It's a bright, sunny day today. You filthy *@!?$, what have you got against Seattle? Flames (violent verbal expressions of disapproval), misunderstandings, overreactions, and hurt feelings are par for the course. Four lessons from experience: (1) HEDGE YOUR BETS. Rather than saying, "Metal rules! Death to all that appose [sic]!!" try saying "In my humble opinion (often abbreviated IMHO) metal bands perfectly express my feelings, choices, and lifestyle. Your mileage may vary" (another net cliche', less frequently abbreviated YMMV). By the way, BTW is another frequent net abbreviation, for what it's worth (FWIW). Watch the abbreviations until you're sure of them, or you may have your readers ROTFL (rolling on the floor, laughing). (2) APOLOGIZE. When misunderstanding is the culprit, and especially if you respect the person who misunderstood, take the blame on yourself for being unclear, apologize, say what you meant more clearly (if appropriate) and put it behind you. As in real life (remember that?) people who are quick to anger are often equally quick to forgive. (3) AVOID FLAME BAIT (conduct which gravely offends the norms, mores and folkways of a particular group). "Now wait a minute!" you say. "Do you mean that something that's accepted behavior on one list or newsgroup will draw dozens of stinging, ridiculing comments in another?" I sure do. Think about it. Do you expect the people who post on "comp.lang.ada" (about the Ada programming language) to be anything like the people who post to "rec.pets.cats?" What can you do? Lurk a while before you post. Read what's said like an anthropologist, trying to discover what the big "don't"s are. The beginning of a school term is a wonderful time to do this, as you will observe the clueless newbies, who weren't smart enough to read this paragraph, being torn to shreds. There are some things you should NEVER do, and we'll list them in a minute, but let's get to the last bit of advice. (4) Bow down to the group's gods. In every Usenet newsgroup and LISTSERV mailing list there are old, gray heads who have earned the respect of everyone in the group. For example, amongst the subscribers to the list discussing the late American bandleader Stan Kenton are the producer of a Kenton box set and the authors of definitive Kenton biographies and discographies. You are entirely ignorant compared to those people. Never pretend you're anything else. They would dearly love to help you -- to answer a question, help you find a rare record -- but you'll always come out second best in a head-butting contest with them. Still other group members have earned their status through long service. Friendships have developed over many years, and marriage is not unknown. By commenting abusively to or about one of these gods, you'll earn not only her enmity, but the enmity of all of her friends -- which may be everyone in the group but you! DO'S AND DON'TS (or how to avoid most flames): (1) DON'T include the entire contents of a previous posting in your reply. (1) DO cut mercilessly. Leave just enough to indicate what you're responding to. NEVER include mail headers except maybe the "From:" line. If you can't figure out how to delete lines in your mailer software, paraphrase or type the quoted material in. (2) DON'T reply to a point in a posting without quoting or paraphrasing what you're responding to and who said it. Reason: a dozen postings may occur between the original message and your reply. At some sites your reply may arrive before the original does. (2) DO quote (briefly) or paraphrase. If the original "Subject:" line was "Big dogs" make sure yours says "Re: Big dogs". Some reply functions do this automatically. By net convention, included (quoted) lines are preceded by ">" (greater-than signs). Some mail editors and newsreaders do this automatically. Others require you to do it manually or to set the "indent character" to ">." Microsoft Exchange is the hardest to use if you want to correspond on the Internet. Unless you're a Word expert, you'll have to enter the ">" signs by hand and get rid of the mail header and indentations. Some versions of Exchange client put the cursor for your reply *before* the message you're replying to; how useless! Move the cursor so that your readers will see the message you're responding to first, then your response. (3) DON'T send a message saying, "Why doesn't anybody say anything about X?" or "Who wants to talk about X?" (3) It's always a risk to start a new topic (often called a thread). The group may have just finished a long, bitter war about that very subject. But if you want to take the risk, SAY SOMETHING yourself about the subject you're raising. (4) DON'T send lines longer than 70 characters. This is a kindness to folks with terminal-based mail editors or newsreaders. Some mail and news gateways truncate extra characters, turning your deathless prose into gibberish. (4) Some mail and news editors only SEEM to insert line breaks for you but actually don't, so that every paragraph is one immense line. Learn what your mail and news editors do by mailing a message to yourself (or posting it to alt.test) and reading the message in a couple of mail and news readers. Unix mail or Mail (they're different) and nn and Netscape Navigator's mail and news readers will usually let you read your message in a plain, vanilla form, the way others will see it. (5) DON'T SEND A MESSAGE IN ALL CAPS. CAPITALIZED MESSAGES ARE HARDER TO READ THAN LOWER CASE OR MIXED CASE. (5) DO use normal capitalization. Separate your paragraphs with blank lines. Make your message inviting to your potential readers. (6) DON'T betray confidences. It's all too easy to quote a personal message by mistake in a message to the entire group. (6) DO read the "To:" and "Cc:" lines in your message before you send it. Are you SURE you want the message to go there? (7) DON'T make statements which can be interpreted as official positions of your organization or offers to do business. Saying "Boy, I'd sure like to have one of those new supercomputers" could result in a truck at your loading dock and a bill in the mail even larger than your student loan. (7) DO treat every post as though you were sending a copy to your boss, your minister, and your worst enemy. I customarily end every message I send from work with "Speaking for myself, not my company." (8) DON'T rely on the ability of your readers to tell the difference between serious statements and satire or sarcasm. It's hard to write funny. It's even harder to write satire. (8) DO remember that no one can hear your tone of voice. Use emoticons (or smileys) like :-) or ;^) -- tilt your head counterclockwise to see the smile. You can also use caps for emphasis or use net conventions for italics and underlines as in: You said the guitar solo on "Comfortably Numb" from Pink Floyd's _The Wall_ was *lame*? Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND???!!! Some mail editors (Exchange again) let you insert all kinds of special characters and put your text in boldface, italics or different fonts. Don't give in to the temptation to use those features unless you're certain that everyone whom you intend to read your message has the same editor. (9) DON'T put a huge signature at the bottom of your messages. (9) DO exercise some restraint. Remember that a large number of mail and news readers out there are set up to use proportional fonts, and your lovely ASCII art will look nothing like you intended it to on those readers. Remember also that there's a Usenet newsgroup(2) out there whose sole function is to make fun of people's signatures. Try not to appear there. (10) DON'T send a message that says nothing but "Me, too." This is most annoying when combined with (1) or (2) above. Ditto for "I don't know." (10) DO recall that you aren't obligated to reply to every single thing you read. Remember the immortal words of Martin Farquhar Tupper (1810-1889): "Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech." A word to people living in the United States: the net is international. If you tell a Belgian she's being un-American, SHE ISN'T OFFENDED. OF COURSE she's un-American; you're un-Belgian. She doesn't care about being lectured on the First Amendment and American values. She doesn't HAVE a First Amendment, and she thinks Belgian values are BETTER. We Americans have made fools of ourselves by forgetting this everywhere else. Let's try to behave a little better on the net. Finally, many groups have had the sense to write down some of their norms and folkways in a frequently asked questions (FAQ) list along with (what else?) the answers to frequently asked questions. Many Usenet FAQs are posted monthly or so on the news.answers (alt.answers, comp.answers) newsgroups. Listowners of LISTSERVs are often quite willing to mail you the FAQ for the list. In fact, they may have already told you where it is in the letter you get welcoming you to the list. With all we've said above, and with all the help newsgroup moderators and listowners are providing to newcomers, it almost seems like you'd have to work at it to go charging in with your mouth open and your eyes and ears shut, thereby aggravating and alienating some otherwise perfectly nice people. The good Lord gave us two eyes and two ears and one mouth to remind us of that very thing. But then he went and gave us ten fingers to type with, and here we are. ----- Now a note from me: HOMEWORK: There are DOZENS of Netiquette guides on the Internet, although IMHO none of them are as good as my dad's. :) (1) Actually, Arlene Rinaldi has a HUGE Netiquette guide that I am going to show you how to retrieve using file transfer protocol, gopher, and the WWW later on in the workshop. So your homework today is: 1. Save this lesson. 2. Reread this lesson several times. 3. Have a GREAT weekend! NOTES: (1) My smileys don't have noses. :) (2) The group is alt.fan.warlord. The reason why this group makes fun of signatures instead of talking about warlord (whatever that is) is lost in the mists of time. (\__/) .~ ~. )) /O O ./ .' Patrick Douglas Crispen {O__, \ { The University of Alabama / . . ) \ crispen@campus.mci.net |-| '-' \ } http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/ .( _( )_.' '---.~_ _ _& Warning: squirrels. ROADMAP96: COPYRIGHT 1996 BY PATRICK DOUGLAS CRISPEN. To unsubscribe from ROADMAP96, send a new e-mail letter to LISTSERV@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET with the command SIGNOFF * in the body of your e-mail letter. To subscribe to ROADMAP96, send a new e-mail letter to LISTSERV@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET with the command SUBSCRIBE ROADMAP96 YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME in the body of your e-mail letter, replacing YOURFIRSTNAME and YOURLASTNAME with your first and last names. The views, opinions, and conclusions reached in this lesson are those of Patrick Douglas Crispen and not necessarily those of The University of Alabama or its officers and trustees. The content of this lesson has not been reviewed or approved by The University of Alabama, and the author is solely responsible for its content. END QUOTE Gerry Visel GCVisel@SNDS.COM (815) 226-6620 (815) 394-5438 or -2827 (fax) Home: VISEL7@JUNO.COM (815) 962-0546 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:15:50 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Far North adapted bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > My point in this short story made long is that the origin of the > bees doesn't seem to relate to survivability in my experience. > My suspicion is that it is most closely related to the breed, but I > don't have enough knowledge on this topic to have any more > than a gut feeling. Well, I think that the strain does have an effect. I tend to believe that some bees (carniolans?) are reputed to have longer individual lifespans, and that this may be true. I think also that -- generally speaking -- there are some bees known to be terrible winterers and avoiding them is more important than finding the perfect strain that winters best. For example: AHB is not likely a candidate for wintering in Alaska. Some NZ strains are known to winter horribly in Canada. (Having said that, I am putting some NZ stock into winter and I worry about that). However, there are several other factors which are likely more important. > Actually, especially on the west coast, a lot of the breeders > were selected from Canadian stock in past years. I don't know if that is > still going on, but the genetic remnants are probably still with us. That was during package days, and wintering was not a factor in selection because bees were gassed in canada before winter. In the California/Canada trade, bees were generally selected for production first and colour second, and maybe a few other things if anyone got around to it. As far as Canadian strains are concerned: the Hastings bees were developed and maintained for many years in Northern Saskatchewan and wintered very well. Sadly that has likely changed character due to dilution since moving south, but they may bear some examination. > Personally, for my own use (here in southeastern USA), I've > generally had better luck with my own queens than with boughten ones. > I'm sure I am not any more skilled in the process, just that I chose bees > adapted to my locale and management style, whenever I choose the > bees that do best in my operation. I was sitting around in my kitchen with my wife and a well known (and outspoken) world travelling college instructor / successful commercial beekeeper the other night. This very subject came up. (He shall remain nameless due to the random abuse that descends on the name of anyone who even appears to question the current bee gospel and the wisdom of some beekeepers/bee breeders) In a nutshell, he said that any competent beekeeper is likely to do a better job of raising queens than many (most at times) commercial outfits. This is due to *humility*, attention, and caring. He also indicated that he believes that much of the talk about special strains and hybrids is more marketing than science. (Not only commercial breeders, but also* researchers* need to market their output or go out of business). That is not to say that these people are deliberately dishonest, but that hope and need tends to blur objectivity and develop faith that is stronger than objective observation. And that is *not* to say that there are not differences between strains, or that selection of breeding stock is not important, but that any beekeeper can do a good job and get pretty good or even superior results. I know I was astounded at the improvement in our bees the first time we started raising our own queens. Having said that, I return to the subject: wintering. In addition to having a strain of bees that are selected for not having terrible wintering characteristics, several other equally important factors must be considered: Nutrition, population demographics, and health. Bees need immense amounts of balanced protein and they usually make do with what is in the locale. This means that they may be chronically undernourished. This condition is not immediately apparent, unless one has a clear idea of what well nourished bees look like; they are bigger, stronger, and smarter. It is not enough to just have good forage or feed supplements for a week or two now and then, but to build and maintain a powerful hive, good nutrition must bee available for several generations and preferrably continuously during the year. Any lapse in good feed will weaken the colony and make it more subject to disease and environment. Where summers are short, hives may lack adequate protein for months before actual wintering starts and months after winter appears to end. Some pollens such as dandelion, although bountiful, simply are a bandage due to inadequate nutitive value. You can see that in most places that ideal conditions are impossible to achieve. This is especially true in the north. Many generations of bees are reared during a subsistence period where forage is not available, and the bees must rely on stored food or feed provided by the beekeeper. Moreover, the bees have a problem disposing of the fecal matter that accumulates from eating -- especially if a lot of poor quality food is required to meet the minimum needs. There was somewhere on the web, for some time, an article about hives petering out on strong flows in Aus due to lack of protein. I think Nick had put it up. The lesson implicit in that study applies in spades to bees wintering -- whether indoors or out. Anyhow, good food is critical during the preparation period as well as the wintering period. Since some bees do a better job of preparation of the brood chamber than others, they may winter better. Splits may do a better job due to younger queens, and the fact that they keep their feed closer to the brood area. They may also have younger and less diseased populations due to the recent rapid buildup -- if they have had access to good pollen. Production hives that have peaked may have cut their brood rearing to the point where bees the majority of bees are old. This results in rapid feed consumption in the early wintering, and then population decline. There is no direct correlation between population size going into wintering and populations coming out. There is some relationship -- just not a direct one. The consideration is whether the cluster is large enough -- and composed of young, well nourshed, healty bees -- to survive comfortably. If so, the cluster at end of wintering should be large. The last consideration is disease. Well fed colonies with young queens that have been checked for mites and had the mite populations maintained at low levels, and which have been treated with TM and fumigillan should bee prime for wintering. If they also come from bee stock not known for terrible wintering, that is a bonus. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:34:09 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: Smoke - it lasts for hours Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi > >Because we now have the capability to continuously measure bee flight in >and out of 21 hives located in Maryland, we are in the process of >examining the effects of a wide array of external stressors on honey bee >behavior. > >We looked at smoke. Two small (and I mean really small) puffs of smoke at >the entrance, wait 2 minutes, puff twice more and then watch the results. > >Because the wind was blowing perpendicular to the row of hives, only one >got most of the 4 puffs of smoke, others got less than 4 puffs, and some >adjacent "unsmoked" hives got a bit of smoke drift. > >In less than two minutes, the numbers of outgoing bees dropped off >dramatically in the "smoked" hives. But closer examination showed the >numbers of outgoing bees decreased in all hives, even those just getting a >bit of drift. Numbers of incoming bees, as expected, did not change much. > >But here's the interesting part, we smoked the bees early in the afternoon >and the effect lasted through the evening - they never returned to full >activity as compared to flight for the previous or following days. Not >surprisingly, the more smoke, the more obvious the effect. > >Remember though, we only injected a bit of smoke. We did not open, bang, >or handle the hives. > >Our thought for the day. > >Jerry J. Bromenshenk >jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Jerry, Interesting stuff! While generally, I concur: Unscientifically, I've observed that sometimes the opposite can happen. On early or cool mornings colonies can seem to "still be drinking their morning coffee" when a visit, even with smoke, can arose the field troops and kick-off the days activities. There can be a clear increase of activity after a visit. regards, Ed ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:12:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: An Apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I don't think a kind suggestion should get so much bad words!!!!! Nor do I. I was ashamed and shocked to see such words (which I won't repeat) come from a fellow Canadian in response to your generous offer. I wish to apologise humbly and publicly for this offence against good manners. I assure you that such behaviour is *not*typical of our country or in any way official. As an official representative of the Alberta Beekeepers Association (ABA), I assure you that your country is held in the highest respect by Alberta beekeepers. I wish to further assure you that we wish to continue to build on the friendship which began in 1982 when the ABA invited Gong Yi Fei from The Department of Agriculture at Fuzian Agricultural University in Fuzhou, China to visit Canada and to address our convention, as well as to visit many of our members. My wife and I still have pictures of our visit with him at our home and a grafting tool received from him as a gift. We remember him fondly. Should you see him, kindly say 'Hello" to him from the ABA. We appreciate that in a large world with many different peoples that careful choice of words and respect for our neighbours ways and different understandings is essential to continued peace, co-operation and prosperity. China is a large and important country and has much to share with us all. I hope you will overlook the insult and continue to participate in our group to our mutual benefit. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:38:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects BT>I know a local beekeeper that uses "liquid smoke" (product used to enhance >meat) in a quart squirt bottle. It smells like smoke and he mists the hive >as you and I would smoke one. He swears by it. Andy could fill you in on >more he knows this guy. Oh darn, Brian, I got to open another box, number two, of HONEY NUT CHEERIOS and get this darn cat off the key board he's hooked. Then let's throw another nuc on the barbee.. Yep, some beekeepers have been using "liquid smoke" for quite a while. One even marketed aerosol cans of the stuff, but had a lot of problems with the nozzle plugging up and I have not seen them around for some time. I used the stuff myself but after years of walking around with a hot smoker between my legs I could not get used to the cool air on my private parts and still use a smoker that never seems to burn as good as in the good old days when we burned old fish net that was dipped in hot tar and used to bring in hundreds of tons of Monterey Bay sardines before being retired to the junk pile. What a smoke that stuff made... I think the first smoke a beekeeper uses is no different then the first honey he produces and licks off his fingers in the honey house, there is just never anything as good as that first taste of real honey or that first lung full of bee smoke. I still got a few smoker loads of that old fish net hid away and if I ever feel my last breath is near and I can get my old smoker fired up I am going out in a white cloud of cool fish net smoke and the lasting dreams of the big crops of past. Back to the real life, and the use of liquid smoke in a windex bottle to calm bees. Yes it works, and is very good if you run baby nucs in tall dry grass as happens around here late in the spring. It is fire safe, and seems to work just as well as the real thing. Several local queen breeders and beekeepers use it diluted with water. Really nice when you only want to look into a few hives, but one of my buddies uses cigaret smoke, I chew myself, but as many times as I tried it in his hives it did not seem to work and it was a question of who was going to get to me first him or the bees. Some beekeepers just don't appreciate bee science at all. We came to an agreement he don't blow cigaret smoke in my hives and I won't spit tobacco juice in his..seemed fair at the time, but sometimes he forgets. I know beekeepers who use just water in the spray bottle to calm very aggressive bees now called "killers" or "Afro" in the desert southwest and Mexico, and report the same results as using real smoke or the fake barbee q smoke. I don't know why this method has not taken off, but it sure seems like a cheep way to calm bees. But then I never have asked what happens when he mists one of those 5 foot rattle snakes that live under the 2nd bee hive in every desert location. I think I will stick with the smoke as I know they move away from it as fast as the bees do, not so sure the water would get them moving and I would end up stepping on their tails which is bad for my tired old back because every time I get into that situation I always seem to injure it when I come back down to earth for my wheels up landing. I don't like rattlesnakes, they are now protected here and you are only allowed two per day, and must have a licence. Several times each year I have violated the law because I won't buy a licence, sorry to say just another tax, but always after I see the 2nd one in any one yard, I come in, no matter how early it is. I don't know if the law says you got to eat what you kill, but my X would not hesitate to cook them up for the kids, but I passed no matter how many times I was told how good they were and tasted just like chicken. But then I passed on the possum, coon, and other assorted varments but did go for the pickled cactus leaves and deep pit mesquite barbee q'ed javelina pigs that are nothing more then a big fat rat as far as I can tell, but the barbee q sauce is always good and I am sure I ate some of that rattlesnake in the barbee q beans anyway. Someday I will tell you about opening the freezer thinking of ice cream and looking into the cold eyes of the beautiful but deadly dead coral snake my wife saved to show me, at least she did not cook it, or did she, she won't tell? My X still likes to call and talk, mostly about the real Mexican kids she teaches in Spanish at one of the few if not the only one room boarder school in the US that teaches kids from Mexico to be better Mexican's, not Americans. Anyway the last time she called she was so excited because her classes pet cockroach was giving birth, don't grin, its the rage in the grammar school science classes so I am told, big brown giant cockroaches as big as your kids hand, and her's was pushing out dozens of little nasty baby cockroaches, maybe a $100 worth in ten minutes...and all they eat is wallpaper and anything else. There may be as much money in giant African "killer" cockroaches as her son's African "killer" queen bee business. ttul, the OLd Drone BTW, for any snake lovers I don't kill just any old snake and I go out of my way to pick up and move some monster ones off the road so they won't be killed. Rattlesnakes in my bee yards are a different story and if you let one go in a bee yard you will find two the next time, around here. The forklift has saved a lot of them as I don't get off of it to chase no snakes when I am loading out a yard, but in the old days there was no grater thrill for a beekeeper then lifting by hand a 200# hive to load on a truck and finding a coiled up rattler under it. You don't want to do that when you have someone else helping you as they always seem to drop their end and run leaving you standing there off balance with a hive full of hot bees and a singing rattlesnake trying to get away trough the space between you legs or worse crawling under the ajoining hive you got to pick up next. I have seen experienced beekeepers get up on the truck with a shovel to kill the snake that was crawling away from the truck 30 feet south, and had one guy who actually wore stove pipes over his legs to keep from getting bit, it worked he never got bit. I have learned to tell when a bee yard has snakes working it over when I don't find any mice in the nests under the hives or in the dead one's you can be certain you will find a snake. I killed one-one time that was over 60 inches and as big around as a fat ladies arm. I could put my foot in its mouth all the way up to the bottom of the boot tops. It scared me so bad that after killing it with a lucky hit from a rock I went ten miles home to get a gun just to bee sure. I did not take that one home because I did not want to have to eat it and left it off with some local hippies who skinned it and ate it so they said, but they also said the skin spoiled because they got stoned on some loco weed for four days, but I am sure they sold it as they are prized for making belts and hat bands and with that one they could have done boots, belt, and a hat band and have some left over for a wallet or two. (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Far North adapted bees Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Allan and all....:) On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > Having said that, I return to the subject: wintering. In addition to > having a strain of bees that are selected for not having terrible > wintering characteristics, several other equally important factors > must be considered: Nutrition, population demographics, and health. > > Bees need immense amounts of balanced protein and they usually make > do with what is in the locale. This means that they may be > chronically undernourished. This condition is not immediately > apparent, unless one has a clear idea of what well nourished bees > look like; they are bigger, stronger, and smarter. > > It is not enough to just have good forage or feed supplements for a > week or two now and then, but to build and maintain a powerful > hive, good nutrition must bee available for several generations and > preferrably continuously during the year. Any lapse in good feed > will weaken the colony and make it more subject to disease and > environment. Since I lost all 3 colonies last winter, I have made every effort to have the new ones as healthy and full of honey as possible. I have the strips in, have been feeding 2:1 sugar with TM and FUM and all there is to do now is some wrapping. One thing I havent previously considered was protien. There seems to be adequate pollen around my area but given your post quoted above I was wondering what you or anyone can say about what one should feed. I have an old copy of "The Hive and the Honeybee" but I was wondering if there was any new thoughts on the recipe for pollen substitute. I am not sure if Allen will get this. He didnt respond to a previous posts and I fear I may be on his "Ignore List"; perhaps deservedly....;) but unintentionally..:) Anyhow, any thoughts would be appreciated... @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:03:53 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: AHB success!!! In-Reply-To: <7A960B3307@warthog.ru.ac.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I've met a few people from the Transvaal (South Africa) who work on a >day to day basis with these bees (A.m.scutellata - the fearsome >Killer bee of the Americas) and do very well from them. > No, they are not the same. I have talked to beekeepers from South Africa and their bees are not the Brazilian "killer bees" I have worked with a lot of bees all over Ethiopia and while there are some bees who are easily offended there are many swarms there that are quite tractable. When we talk ogf the Africanized Honey Bee (AHB bred in Brazil) we are not taliking about the African Honey Bee. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:09:04 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Protein Substitutes & Supplements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Since I lost all 3 colonies last winter, I have made every effort to > have the new ones as healthy and full of honey as possible. I have > the strips in, have been feeding 2:1 sugar with TM and FUM and all > there is to do now is some wrapping. One thing I havent previously > considered was protien. There seems to be adequate pollen around my > area but given your post quoted above I was wondering what you or > anyone can say about what one should feed. I have an old copy of > "The Hive and the Honeybee" but I was wondering if there was any new > thoughts on the recipe for pollen substitute. I am not sure if Allen > will get this. He didnt respond to a previous posts and > I fear I may be on his "Ignore List"; perhaps deservedly....;) but > unintentionally..:) No, Ian, you are not on my ignore list :) I just haven't gotten around to it, or felt that you had said what needed saying and that I couldn't add anything to it. I too need to know more about substitutes and supplements. What I have read has only left me with the impression that current products are okay in the short run, but all fall down over time. I don't know of any diet that can sustain bees as well as a blend of natural pollens collected by the bees themselves flying free. I sure hope that someone can give us some good info on this. I need it. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:18:37 -0500 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Organization: HOLLY-B APIARY Subject: Re: NETIQUETTE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for info ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:00:04 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: Amitraz Status In-Reply-To: <19961029.220659.7551.1.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <19961029.220659.7551.1.visel7@juno.com>, Gerry Visel writes > > > While corresponding with an international beekeeper, he mentioned >using a product "BIPIN," that had Amitraz as the active (only?) >ingredient. It got dissolved in water and poured (?) on the bees between >the frames, if I understood him correctly. I can't say I've heard of this product, but here's a couple things that you might find helpful. Check out Amitraz at . In Europe it was/is used as a commercialy produced fumigant strip for tracheal mites. It has now been produced and EC registered as a contact strip (like Apistan) for varroa called Apivar. It would seem that in the last few years what I call an 'uncertain' safety assessment has been reviewed and seems more favorable. I'd like to know what they did to make it water soluble, surely its probably an emulsion, and used like Perizin/Apitol on the cluster.If so control of dose and dispersal would be the weakness, never mind transfer to honey. In some respects it seems a viable alternative to the synthetic pyrethriods if used as a hanging strip. -- Dave Black Blacks Bee Gardens, Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:34:55 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: AHB success!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob St. John wrote: > > >I've met a few people from the Transvaal (South Africa) who work on a > >day to day basis with these bees (A.m.scutellata - the fearsome > >Killer bee of the Americas) and do very well from them. > > > No, they are not the same. I have talked to beekeepers from South Africa and > their bees are not the Brazilian "killer bees" > I have worked with a lot of bees all over Ethiopia and while there are some bees > who are easily offended there are many swarms there that are quite tractable. > When we talk ogf the Africanized Honey Bee (AHB bred in Brazil) we are not > taliking about the African Honey Bee. I'd like to add a few things on this subject. There are many different races of bees in Africa. One race, the most common, is A. M. Scutellata. That's the race that were brought to Brazil in the 50's and crossed with European bees there to investigate if the cross would be any good in a similar climate to Africa. We all know the result of that. The Scutellata is not that bad, even if some colonies have a well developed defence behaviour. For thousands of years people have been hunting bees for the honey. The honey has been robbed from the feral colonies, leaving only those with the most will to defend themselves. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:45:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pure Jane wrote. >I don't think a kind suggestion should get so much bad words!!!!! >China is one of the main countries in apiculture but now more than half >of her bees are Italian bees. We accept Italian bees for their characters >are suitable to our conditions. I don't think all the products from a third >world country inferior to that of a developed country but most of you >gentlemen have this thought. You just mean all the dirty were from poorer >countries and ignore the facts the health conditions are being stressed >in our countries and all the living things that imported and exported >should pass a strict examination. This was the furthest thing from my mind. The expression "Methinks something dirty is afoot" is Victorian English used by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in writing Sherlock Holmes detective novels. It is used to describe suspicious, fishy, underhand, or actions outside or beneath the law. You will recall that you were offering Queen bees and Honey across international borders, without checking the necessary restrictions on trade. With the use of e-mail one tends to forget, there are rules and regulations regarding international trade. As an importer-exporter we have to be cognisant of the necessary customs regulations on a day to day basis. I do not apologise for my words as there was no malice intended. I will apologise for my use of a possible obscure phrase to a foreign national unaware of the nuances of English. My sincere regrets, it will not happen again. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:45:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: An Apology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pure Jane wrote >> I don't think a kind suggestion should get so much bad words!!!!! > Allen Dick wrote. >Nor do I. > >I was ashamed and shocked to see such words (which I won't repeat) >come from a fellow Canadian in response to your generous offer. I >wish to apologise humbly and publicly for this offence against good >manners. In the rush to condem me (not the first time) Mr. Dick has condemmed himself. To advise someone to break the law is usually the action of someone who considers themself above the law. Pure Jane was volunteering to ship bees across international borders, and as an aside confesses to having done so already. I have already dealt with the matter of words which I used in another post. Words which any well educated school boy is aware of, and certainly nothing which would cause offence in normal polite society. It is my intention to write to Mr.Dick on a personal and private note (making sure of my headings) as I believe he has firmly stepped outside the realms of decency. I apologise to my peers for the inconvience caused by this, you can be assured that I will be more diligent in my use of the delete button and will insure that I will not rise to the bait again. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:30:52 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mark D. Egloff" Gentlepeople: I have noticed a trend in the BEE-L that concerns me. When I originally signed on nearly 6 months ago, there seemed to be an occasional spat (conflict) between members on the list, but for the most part it was a congenial group of people. In the last month or so I have witnessed several threads that basically were dealing with conflict, put-downs, and apologies for words said either in haste or with subtle forethought. The congeniality that I experienced in my early days on the list and the freedom to ask questions that that encouraged has seemed to evaporate to more than just a degree. It has discouraged me. I have learned a lot from this list and will continue to, I suppose, but some of the joy of sharing with others of similar interests, rare in the world outside of beekeepers meetings and the companions on this list, has eroded by the bickering. Now I am not asking for goodness and light and for everyone to don their halo when they log on, but can we keep the "conversations" we hold on this list based the same courtesy we would show to each other if we met and were talking face to face? It is all to easy to "lash out" at the computer terminal and forget or disregard the other person(s) on the other side of that screen. I have a longer base of experience with the BEE-L than some of the newcomers and can view this trend in context with the other threads I have seen that are constructive and friendly. If some of the newcomers to this list have experienced the antagonism on the list without the benefit of seeing the cooperation and congeniality, I am afraid that they would sign back off again with only a sour memory of the experience. If anything that I have "said" causes anyone to consider flaming my opinion.... I rest my case. Mark Egloff Dayton, Ohio 10 hives ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:56:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects on Andy & Allen Andy, I enjoy your posts even though you're a devout curmudgeon :). You age me by far but I've always thought of myself as a junior curmudgeon so maybe some day I can reach your level of competence. I've used the spray bottle method like you've said in the dry foothills and it works fine. I prefer the smoker by far and wildfires much less. There is something to be said for a heavy whiff of acrid, gagging burlap that you missed that tag of wool which is now burning. It's brings tears to my eyes (in more ways than one) just to think about it. Another method I've heard of is burlap soaked in waste motor oil and allowed to dry. Lots of white smoke, kills both forms of mite, increases honey production 30% and makes any hired help quit in a week. I'm worried about all the Cherrios you're consuming also, when I slow down some soon I'll buy you breakfast in your neck of the woods, something with fat, cholesterol, and sodium. You bring a patch of that fishnet, we'll fire it up for dessert. What do you think colony numbers are going to look like for this spring? How about the honey prices for next year, they going to maintain for a while? Thanks for the humor you provide us with. Sometimes we're a little grumpy and too serious. Allen, I wanted to thank you also for the posts you've made to the list also. You have a critical (meant as a "good" word) mind and I appreciate that. Thanks for the advice on shaking bees in Montana. It turned out fine, I learned alot, made some new friends, and found that my tolerance for bee stings is much higher than I thought. It's even okay that you're a little tough on us "southerners" now and then and you quote Rodney :). Keep up the good work eh. Hope your season wound up well. Brian Alta Apiaries Atwater, CA Kaykin@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:07:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: Re: Amitraz Status Amitraz was used here in the US some years ago, but was produced by a company that had nothing to do with beekeeping. It was marketed as Miticure strips. Due to some mix up in some of the strips, honeybees were killed along with the mites. The company washed their hands of the matter and stopped producing the strips. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:03:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Congeniality? In-Reply-To: <9609308467.AA846721939@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark D. Egloff wrote: > Gentlepeople: > > I have noticed a trend in the BEE-L that concerns me. When I > originally signed on nearly 6 months ago, there seemed to be an > occasional spat (conflict) between members on the list, but for > the most part it was a congenial group of people. In the last > month or so I have witnessed several threads that basically > were dealing with conflict, put-downs, and apologies for words > said either in haste or with subtle forethought. The > congeniality that I experienced in my early days on the list > and the freedom to ask questions that that encouraged has > seemed to evaporate to more than just a degree. > > Mark Egloff > Dayton, Ohio > 10 hives > Mark, You are entirely correct. This I say as one of the offenders. In the interim, I have 'wised up' and taken things more calmly. I now realise that it was probably ME and my interpretation of a response or comment that made it seem rude or smart-ass. Re-reading the Netiquet that was posted recently also reminded me of the lack of "tone of voice" when reading posts. Now I try to read things with a sense of humour...;) Boy!...am I glad I got THAT off my chest.....;) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:18:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: An Apology In-Reply-To: <199610302054.PAA11742@segwun.muskoka.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, David Eyre wrote: > Pure Jane wrote > >> I don't think a kind suggestion should get so much bad words!!!!! > > > Allen Dick wrote. > >Nor do I. > > > >I was ashamed and shocked to see such words (which I won't repeat) > >come from a fellow Canadian in response to your generous offer. I > >wish to apologise humbly and publicly for this offence against good > >manners. > > In the rush to condem me (not the first time) Mr. Dick has condemmed > himself. To advise someone to break the law is usually the action of > someone who considers themself above the law. Pure Jane was volunteering to > ship bees across international borders, and as an aside confesses to having > done so already. > I apologise to my peers for the inconvience caused by this, you can > be assured that I will be more diligent in my use of the delete button and > will insure that I will not rise to the bait again. > > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * > * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * > * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * > * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * > **************************************************** "Another sure sign of Winter's approach in Canada, As the days get shorter So do the tempers" Ian, who thought an injection of humour might be the right prescription...;) or not? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:47:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: mites and vermont honey bees (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist wrote: > Dear Meli: > > Thanks for the message. I am forwarding your message to a couple of > electronic networks to see if someone will contact you from Vermont. > > Tom Sanford > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:36:57 -0500 (EST) > From: dag1111 > To: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU > Subject: mites and vermont honey bees > > Dear Mr. Sanford, > I am a 11th grade student at the Putney School in Vermont and I am starting > or should I say renewing the Putney Honey Bee Hives as my spring prroject. > Right now I'm researching the mite and bee symbiosis and have downloaded > some articles from 1993 from the Florida Ext. Beekeeping Newsletter. I need > updated info about bee keeping and in particular the mite infestation in > Vermont. Is there anybody in Southern Vermont that (Brattleboro area) that > can help me? Please send what you can to Meli_Glenn@Pegasus.com or Snail > Mail to Meli Glenn > The Putney Schoool > Elm Lee Farm > Putney, VT 05346 > > Thank you in advance for whatever you can do to help me with this project. I think it would be a good thing for this young beekeeper to subscribe to this list also. And good luck to him..:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:08:03 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Smoke - it lasts for hours In-Reply-To: from "Ed Levi" at Oct 30, 96 09:34:09 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I said, we need to do more experiments concerning the effects of smoke. But on a warm afternoon when the bees were heavily foraging, we got a dramatic and sustained response. Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:09:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects In-Reply-To: <961029190553_1415679541@emout03.mail.aol.com> from "Brian Tassey" at Oct 29, 96 07:05:54 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We also use liquid smoke or just plain water to work our nucs on calm days. Jerry Bromenshenk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:15:55 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Franklin Almond Organization: Markos Inc Subject: Smoker Fuel MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What is the best smoker fuel which is least harmful to the bees. I have used pine needles, white pine needles, burlap, popsickle sticks, paper and other materials. All answers will be read. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:39:45 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9609308467.AA846721939@cscuuxch.dayton.csc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello All, I have thick skin , so it is hard to get under it. Some people are very gental by nature. They do not need to be put down or talked down . We all have something to learn. This list has been great and it will continue to be a help for all of us.Yes, we will have to put up with an outbreak of partimers desease. That is when the brain takes a rest for awhile. We do have to put that aside and keep talking about beekeeping.This is a very good tool for all of us. I'm very happy to be a part of it and hope we can turn the flame off. Best regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:00:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Smoke - it lasts for hours EL>Interesting stuff! While generally, I concur: EL>Unscientifically, I've observed that sometimes the opposite can happen. On >early or cool mornings colonies can seem to "still be drinking their >morning coffee" when a visit, even with smoke, can arose the field troops >and kick-off the days activities. There can be a clear increase of >activity after a visit. EL>regards, Ed Ed, I am with you and am NOT knocking anyone's BS, but I have never seen the negative results of smoking on working bees that others report. I did know one beekeeper who got his daily working orders from a higher authority then most and he would on certain days work his bees with out any kind of smoke because of his beliefs. I also know that on these days he and his son took a real beating from the bees. I suspect that these tests are not reflecting any more then the regional observations that may vary radically from one area to another. Like the spraying of aggressive bees with water in the low humidity of the southwest which I would not be surprised has little or no calming effect on the bees in the humid south. Here in California we have flows, both honey and pollen that for sure if you pull into an apiary during a corn pollen flow the bees will drop the heavy greasy loads of corn pollen and it will fall like rain. But enough gets in to make NO difference in the nutrition of the hive or the amount collected in pollen traps. We have another flow from the fall tarweed that is common in the lower elevations of both the Costal foothills and Sierra mountain foothills. There is no doubt that if you pull into a yard when this flow is on ALL bee activity in the yard will stop. I have parked a half mile away and tried to sneak up on the bees to have a peek and by the time you open a few hives the yard will go deathly silent. I am sure this is the bees response to the aromatics released by the plants by just the normal activity of crushing a few plants under foot. What happens to the bees in the field is a mystery, but do doubt as soon as the air clears which may take a hour or two the bees return. Hives in this kind of flow are notorious drifters and robbers and they will clean out any failing hive before the beekeeper finds the problem I believe this is because of the masking of the hive odor by this very aromatic plant. Yes, it does smell like dog du du some say, and I have been run out of the local beekeepers favorite coffee shop in town several times because of the rank odor of this plant that will cover your pant legs with its sticky resin within the first few feet of tramping through it. The honey mellows out with time and if not drummed up for a few days. The bees also can make a good crop of honey from the stinking tarweed, several times I have extracted 100# per hive from this source alone, but must admit the honey is about the same quality as dandelion, yellow, and it will get hard in a few cool days. The pollen from this plant is also very low in bee nutrition and the bees will store up huge amounts because they can't consume it as fast as they bring it in, and in fact will cut way down on brood before the flow is over if this is the only source of pollen they will stop all broodrearing. Heavy mysterious losses are sometimes reported from bees pastured in fall tarweed and some in BS have named it 'fall decline or fall collapse and much effort has been made to find a cause other then poor nutrition and the fact that even in California tired old worn out bees do not winter well even in our mild winters. On the other end of the scale is the early summer sage flow along the central coast of California. The first experience I had with coverall's is in this flow when we used coverall's because of the wet foggy weather normal along the south cost which would soak us to the skin and take some of the pleasure out of beekeeping. The bees would fly out of the fog to get to the sage and coming back fully loaded with nectar they would drift onto our backs in numbers large enough that they would dry large areas on our backs from the heat they picked up a mile or two away working the sage which was outside of the fog and 70 to 80 degrees. Our activity did not stop them from flying nor did the wet fog, and we extracted huge crops at one time measured in case's per hive. (A case is wooden shipping container that held two sixty pound cans of honey and was used in the days when California honey was mostly shipped east by rail. It was one unit of measurement that I was sorry to see go out of use just about the time I got into the bees on my own and honey crops took a dramatic fall from 200# or more per hive to 60# or even the 30# crop that is considered good by some pollinators today.) It was so wet on those sage locations from the fog that the power lines would spark and pop and big clouds of bees were attracted to that activity and would ball the insulators, and balls of them would fall to the ground and you sure did not want to be directly under them when they fell, maybe the Ozone got to them. Last, in the old days I worked in a portable extracting house, actually outside most of the time. We pulled the portable which was built on the back of a Morland Truck into the bee yards which were 96+ hives arranged on each side of the truck in three or four rows deep. Within a few minutes the bee activity would get back to normal after pulling the big old honey house into the bee yard. I remember one flow that we averaged 60# per double hive in the tank by the end of the day. We extracted the supers and also removed any heavy honey from the bottoms and equalized all the hives as we went along. By the time we got to the end of the rows and finished that afternoon I went back to check the first hives and sometimes they would be FULL of nectar from top to bottom, so I am sure no matter what the beekeeping activity the beekeeper is doing if there is a good honey flow the bees can get back to normal within a few minutes of the end of that beekeeping activity. I am also sure that if there is no real bee activity in the field a few puffs of smoke will cause all activity to stop and it will be slow to start again. Beekeepers who operate in the hotter regions of the desert southwest ware they must keep their bees under shades or have them melt down or see the field bees die landing on the hot earth can with no problem give a yard a few puffs of smoke in the hot afternoon and load them on a truck and move them without leaving a bee. IMHO, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ L'ENFUMOIR" is the tool the beekeeper uses to smoke bees. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:40:25 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You just mean all the dirty were from poorer >countries and ignore the facts the health conditions are being stressed >in our countries and all the living things that imported and exported >should pass a strict examination. It has nothing to do with poor or dirty countries. We do not allow bees from the mainland USA in Hawaii because of the pests they have. Do not take it personally. We do not have mites or AHB and we want to keep it that way. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:04:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: It's Raining Here in Central Calif It's Raining Here in California!! Anytime it rain's this OLd Drone gets happy and most all beekeepers get excited. I have danced with beekeepers, grown men, more then once out in the first good pounding rain of the season and none here are Greek. It rained almost 2 inches last night and today, I am happy. You see we don't get that much rain here, less then 10 inches each year and it only comes for a few months each year during our winter season and we all know that to experience that bumper wild flower honey crops of old we need lots of rain, more, much more then our normal allotment. We also know from experience just about thirty days after a good rain there will be new bee pasture somewhere within our operating range of 100+ miles for our bees and our green season will be on. Floods that set records are ok with us in spite of the damage they do to our hives and homes. The best year ever experienced here found every beekeeper with a boat on the back of his truck as standard equipment when checking bees. Many hives washed away, and some homes were flooded. Today we all have 4 wheelers, but every time I get a new one it stops raining and the truck wares out before I get to use the 4 wheel drive part. When a beekeeper loses a yard of bees in a flood instead of crying in our white beards we all rejoice with him and his personal sacrifice for the rest of us. Talk about an Irish wake, I don't know if that helps but all here know that heavy rains and floods as miserable as they may be are signs from high above that good things are coming for the bees and beekeeper. There is nothing I have prayed for more or harder then just one more good rain, admittedly, most of the time my prayers were not answered for such a bold selfish request is not considered good netiquette between my God and myself I have been told. But thank you God for this rain and just keep sending more and spare those who get too much. Anyway it is raining and I should be paying bills, not dreaming about beekeeping, but the rain has given me renewed hope for a better season next year and I am feeling like sharing some of the fun things I have seen in my bee yards the last 40 years. For some reason I was thinking back on a time that I got caught short out in a bee yard, (could be something about that 2nd box of HONEY NUT CHEERIOS), and was forced to seek relief in the bushes about 50 yards up a gentle incline from the the bees I was working in. As I hunkered down waiting for nature to take its course I heard a "pop" overhead, about the same decibel as the noise we all learn to make as a kid by moving our tongue fast from the top or our mouth to the bottom. I looked up being careful not to fall back into my unfinished work and just in time to see a baseball size comet of bees heading straight for my position...but they missed and landed at my feet and I used my finger to move the bees apart, they were all drones and there was a queen no longer a virgin with a drone still connected to her. As the years passed I returned to that sight many times maybe 50 yards from one of my bee yards to watch the drones mating with the queens at just about out of arms reach. I am sure they were the prescribed elevation found by others from the bees hives to be the normal but because of the elevation of the ground that I viewed them from it was possible to get up close and personal, a bee perverts dream you might say, and watch the antics of the drones clashing with each other and the queen, sometimes racing after a hapless bird that strayed into their flight path. Almost any day there was a swarm in the yard, you could in the warm afternoon see this activity and hear the noise of the drones wing beats and the last pop of the lucky or unlucky drone that gets to mate with the queen. Later on I read and talked much with bee researchers at several university's and federal research stations who had spent much time studying these "drone congregation areas" trying to find out how they could be identified. I don't think we know much more about that other then it may be more complex then just odors, magnetic fields, and the like, or a combination of factors that makes one location far superior for queen mating then another. But these sites are very valuable if you rear queens and I piled lots of nucs in this area because they mated well which was not the norm for the area in total. One thing that I have seen that has never been reported as far as I know is a "swarm congregation area". Years ago in a cherry orchard now occupied by homes I use to set off a pickup load of bees maybe 48 hives for shaking into bulk packages. I shook these bees several times starting early in the prune bloom and into the end of the cherry bloom, maybe every 7 or 8 days for a month or more. I would always have to bring empty hives to catch the swarms that were just about in every tree within a hundred yards of my hives. I never took less then 120 hives out of this location and sometimes more, also there was a hobbyist I ran into years later that confessed to me how he also took an additional 25 to 50 swarms from this orchard each spring when I was not around. In this case he sure was not getting my bees. The rest of the story is that the hives I had in this orchard because they were shook seldom showed more then one or two that even looked like they swarmed, and I am sure these were only replacing failing queens and did not swarm. I also had several thousand more hives within a few miles of this orchard that I kept shook down and they seldom would cast a swarm. I can only conclude there was something about this orchard, its soil or just it position that attracted swarms to it from beehives miles away. Your guess is as good as my own, but the last year I kept bees here there were new homes as far as you could see and I often wonder if they are today each spring plagued by swarms of bees looking for a home. I would bet some smart beekeeper makes a good living charging the home owners to remove the bees, probably the same guy who thought he was catching my swarms.. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... That the still murmur of the honey bee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:39:42 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: AHB success!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GAVIN JOHNSTON wrote: > > Hi All. > > Many people seem to be genuinely scared of working with the >snip > > Don't forget the beesuits and gloves and boots. > Sounds like loads of fun for us hobby beekeepers. I don't own a bee suit and don't want to. I use a veil in case I must deal with nasty tempered bees. It is not a matter of fear, but where's the fun? -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:32:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Queen Line Jars When I recently went to my jar supplier to purchase jars for fall I was shocked to find that the price of the 1 pound qunn line had jumped over 60%. Has any one other than me run into to this? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:14:20 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BRIAN HENSEL Subject: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 TONIGHT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HELLO BEE LOVERS! Tonight on KRON TV 4 San Francisco, Ca. at 11:00 PM two hours from now for those of you in California or those who have satellite TV, there is going to be a report on the endangered bee's, and the effects this will mean to us all, with the lack of enough bee's to pollinate crops. They have mentioned a suprise coming to the bee's rescue. I will watch and report on it if anybody is interested. It looks good but I don't know if it is just a short blurb on the news or a descent report of any length. Thank you all, who have given me so much information on Bee-L. I look forward every day after work to read all the postings. BRIAN Hensel bjhensel@metro.net New beekeeper with one hive, but will expand to the brink of bankruptcy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:51:38 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Bee-L folks: >From the last 'friendly discussion' between David, Pure Jane, and some other concerned beekepers. I would like to see the calories in the donut, therefore I will explain myself a bit: >Pure Jane wrote: >...all the dirty were from poorer >countries and ignore the facts the health conditions are being stressed >in our countries and all the living things that imported and exported >should pass a strict examination... 1) Born and bred in Mexico, I know first had that sometimes (if not always) the regulations (if any) are just pure ink on a sheet of paper. In Mexico, if you know how to pull the right strings, you can even get yourself an authentic Death Certificate from a Qualified Practitioner. >Mauricio Montes-Castillo wrote> >Ohh No!!!! I can foresee some Tropilaelaps on the way..... In a very interesting article that Andy-OLd Drone was kind to post for us about Tropilaelaps clareae survivability, writen by J. Woyke and S. Chen, the introduction reads... "Tropilaelaps clareae is more dangerous parasitic mite of Apis mellifera, than Varroa jacobsonii is (Woyke 1984). Therefore it is important to know its biology...." Having suffered on my own bees (Mexico 1982-1988) the damage caused by the nasty vampire mites, I perfectly understand the concern and anger of some beekeepers when we contemplate the irresponsible movement of live animals between countries and even worse, between continents. It looks to me that the same story is about to be repeated, that is how the AHB, Acarapis, Varroa and the like got to the American Continent. I dont want to be pesimistic but I realy wish that with one apology I could solve all the problems the North-South American beekeeping industry is facing now. Yours Mauricio David Erie wrote 2) ********************************************************************** "The optimist sees the donut...the pessimist sees the hole... but the realist sees the calories." -Anonimous- Mauricio Montes Castillo (DVM, M.Ag.) Ph: (617) 3365-2580 Dept. of Farm Animal Medicine & Production FAX: (617) 3365-1288 The University of Queensland Brisbane, QLD 4072 Australia. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:36:43 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Edwin Badgett Subject: Re: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 TONIGHT Comments: To: bjhensel@metro.net I got your message a little too late on the special program concerning the fate of the bees in our country. Is your channel a public tv station? Do you know if it is scheduled to air again? thanks Ed Had one hive and expanded to three which cost little more than the one in upkeep except for the medications and sugar. badge@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:16:34 -0600 Reply-To: smills@wichita.fn.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stephen & Colleen Mills Subject: Re: An Apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > certainly nothing which would cause offence in normal polite society. David, I feel that I must also add my 2 cents worth, as I agree with your basic responce to shipping bees across international boundry's. In the rush to be politically correct the hysteria of over reaction should be avoided. You made a public and quite elequent apology for your choice of words, and realizing that the perception and/or interpretation of words in another cultural contex could result in miscommunication I felt that it i.e. the apology was more than sufficent. I can therefor understand your feelings at being once more taken to task for what was in the end simply a poor choice of words, but don't let the reactions of the politically correct ruin your day. Steve Mills Mulvane Ks. N0HOJ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:03:45 -0800 Reply-To: "alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Albert W Needham <"alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net> Subject: Laws,Rules & Regulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that we should all keep in mind that we (Bee-Ler's) are an International Group with some significant cultural and legal differences. Here in the U.S., we cannot plead "Ignorance Of The Law", it is simply not an acceptable legal excuse. Within our Bee-L group we live under different sets of laws and regulations. Therefor, I think that it is incumbent upon each of us to consider this difference, "prior to" making any sort of offers to send anything across International Borders. What is okay in one place may be a serious legal offense in some other place. Considering the severe damage already being wreaked by T&V Mites, we each need to be alert to the possibility of any new threats being "innocently" spread by our activities. I am only a hobbyist beekeeper with a couple of hives. Their loss would be significant to me. However, that loss would not threaten my economic well being. I can well understand the serious concerns expressed by those of you who run big commercial operations. You have every right to be very alert to anything that may threaten your very economic existence! Your concerns are helping hobbyists like myself. I appreciate the benefits of your serious concern! -- Al Needham * Scituate,MA,USA * Alwine@concentric.net >"The HoneyBee" -All about Honey Bees-Nice Photos!< Download from: Http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:12:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Beluch Subject: Smelly Supers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello all, Just a quick question from a 'newbee.' This year, for reasons I won't go into, it was necessary for me to remove a box from one hive with 3 or 4 frames of brood, all in varying stages of development. Needless to say, it all died. So I put it on top of another strong hive to clean it out. They DID remove all the capped larvae and pupae really quickly, but they never really removed the uncapped larvae carcasses. After about two weeks, they seemed to be using this comb readily to store nectar and pollen. However, I've noticed a strong odor of decay that has remained with this box. It has been two months since I put the box on. I decided to take it back off, and when the bees had emptied out (via a bee escape) the smell was stronger than ever. The colony seems none for the worse. Most beekeepers tell me not to worry about the smell, and that they'll continue to clean the comb in the spring. My question is, have I unknowingly introduced a pathogen into my colony? I observed absolutely no signs of AFB or EFB in any of the brood I've checked almost weekly since August. Any comments of suggestions? I'm afraid to use this comb in the spring again (it would just be for brood, though) Can you hear my knees knocking? ;-) Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:21:29 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Garey B. Spradley" Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? Judy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Displaced Texan in PA gspradley@gcc.edu Iron Acres - where the water is red and the grass is green! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:59:20 -0800 Reply-To: salbritt@iAmerica.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steven Albritton Organization: LDS Communications Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garey B. Spradley wrote: > > This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my > smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I > pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? > > Judy > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > A Displaced Texan in PA gspradley@gcc.edu > Iron Acres - where the water is red and the grass is green! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pine straw seems to work good for me. -- Steven Albritton LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms Monroe, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:01:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Andy wrote >Yep, some beekeepers have been using "liquid smoke" for quite a while. >One even marketed aerosol cans of the stuff, but had a lot of problems >with the nozzle plugging up and I have not seen them around for some >time. I used the stuff myself but after years of walking around with a After the last 48 hrs it was refreshing to have a good Ha ha! Both Jean and I were in stitches over this and other recent postings. Your problems with rattle snakes makes our problems with skunks and ants seem very tame!! Would you please take a few moments and tell me (us) what "liquid smoke" is and how to use it? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:02:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jerry Bromenshenk wrote >We also use liquid smoke or just plain water to work our nucs on calm >days. On a very young nuc we don't use anything, especially when finding and picking the queen. Use of smoke makes then run all over the hive and then they are difficult to catch and cage!! I asked Andy to explain "liquid smoke" could we also get your method, I for one have never heard of this item. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:31:40 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >What is the best smoker fuel which is least harmful to the bees. I have >used pine needles, white pine needles, burlap, popsickle sticks, paper >and other materials. >All answers will be read. >Thank you. > I use cotton that is left on the side of the road after cotton harvest. I have to let the cotton dry out or put it in the oven to dry. This is a cheap and cool burning fuel. I have also used: Cardboard rolled into bundles that will fit into the smoker. Leave enough space to light the lower edge of the roll. This seems to be a cool smoke that I have seen no adverse effect on the bees. Old blue jeans (denim) the smoke is cool and it's a good use of old jeans. It is sometimes hard to start because of the tight weave so I use old cotton towels that are too worn to dry anything as a starter fuel. Richard Barnes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:53:07 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andrew Matheson Subject: Africanized honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed 30 Oct 1996 Stan Sandler in Canada asked for further comment about the legality of mailing bees around the world. He said "Hopefully it is NOT LEGAL to just mail bees from a country where tropilaelaps exists to another continent where it doesn't (although with all the problems in Nicaragua I'm sure that bee inspection is not much of a priority}." In general the legality of such an action depends on the importing country, which sets its own laws to protect the health of its bee population. Some countries may have limited, or no, bee health protection measures, in which case the importation of bees infested with tropilaelaps might well be 'legal'. Many pest/disease introductions have been effected through 'legal' movements of bees. I don't know about the current bee disease laws in Nicaragua. The International Bee Reseach Association published a bibliography reviewing bee disease (and beekeeping) legislation around the world, though it might not be very current. As tropilaelaps has become an issue in international trade 'relatively' recently it is not covered by the "International animal health code; mammals, birds, bees"; produced by the OIE (the world organization for animal health) as a guide to official veterinarians setting health-protection measures for international trade. A current project I am involved with is the review of the chapters of this Code which relate to bee diseases, and tropilaelaps will certainly be looked at as part of this review. In the meantime I guess we should remember that even though things are lawful, they may not be helpful Andrew Matheson (Personal opinion; not necessarily that of the New Zealand Ministry of Agriculture) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:40:48 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Van Roekel Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have also used: > >Cardboard rolled into bundles that will fit into the smoker. Leave enough >space to light the lower edge of the roll. This seems to be a cool smoke >that I have seen no adverse effect on the bees. We had a speaker ( a researcher from Texas?) at our annual meeting last year who had been experimenting with different materials to kill mites and using it in smokers as the delivery method. He mentioned several fuels that were sugested to him that he had been working with. I believe he used mesquite, tarweed? and several other items that I can't remember. The one item he did mention using that I do remember was cardboard. He thought it would be a good control. With some of the cardboard he used, the colonies died!!!! He attributed the loss of these colonies to the cardboard he used!! He did not keep track of the source of the cardboard, and other times using cardboard from other sources did not have the same effect. I have used cardboard in the past with no problems. I will not use it anymore. The source of the cardboard is seldom if ever known, and each box can be different. It is not worth the risk to me. I thought it was pretty far fetched that smoke from a cardboard box would kill bees until I thought about it for a while. Certainly a variety of chemicals are used in its manufacture, and then it makes sense that ANYTHING could happen from there on. As far as keeping a smoker lit, I always remember what the instructor in the beekeeping class I took said. " Always remember that fire always burns UP." It made sense then, and it seems anytime I have trouble with my smoker, it is because I have the fire on top of the fuel, instead of the fuel on top of the fire. And as much as I hate restarting the smoker, I know that if I don't empty it and start it right, it just plain won't work right. Roekel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:55:05 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > With some of the cardboard he used, the colonies died!!!! >Certainly a variety of chemicals are used in its manufacture, .... Cardboard is often used to store some strange materials. Some of this other stuff may also contaminated it Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:59:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Processing Dear Bee Folks - Thus far my comment about letting the bees clean out the supers that I stacked up in the woods has brought several comments: l) This is a good way to spread pathogens. 2) Why do I want to clean them out? ( Stan) 3) I don't like to leave mine wet cuz they get moldy (Rick) My thinking on the matter after this discussion is l) This worries me. But what are my options? I don't like to leave them wet for the same reasons that Rick does not...a horrible, smelly mess! But, even if I did leave them wet, the honey and pathogens would still be there come spring and when I went to put them on the hives the bees would be exposed to the "evil humours." To clean or not to clean, that is the question. Whether tis nobler to leave the hives wet and suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous molds or let the bees clean them and perchance to....whatever. Perhaps Shakespeare had answer. I don't! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:32:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: Smoker fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I use paper towels in my smoker, and when it gets going I grab a handful of grass and put it in on top. Makes a lot of smoke, and cools the whole thing down a lot. I just have two hives, so my smoker doesn't have to stay lit for very long. Now that I think about it that may be why I've never been inclined to have more than 2 or 3 hives - subconsciously I knew I couldn't keep my smoker lit through an inspection tour of 4. Guy F. Miller My basic credo: If you walk slow enough, Charlottesville. VA you can lead the next parade. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:43:22 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Processing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dear Bee Folks - Thus far my comment about letting the bees clean out the >supers that I stacked up in the woods has brought several comments: >l) This is a good way to spread pathogens. >2) Why do I want to clean them out? ( Stan) >3) I don't like to leave mine wet cuz they get moldy (Rick) > >My thinking on the matter after this discussion is >l) This worries me. But what are my options? SIMPLE!! Let YOUR bees clean them up inside their own hive. That way you know the you are not feeding all the feral colonies in the bush as well (and losing a lot of honey). You can even strengthen the weaker colonies getting them to do all the cleaning. The trick is how to get the bees to clean up stickies in the hive without using them for storage. My preferred method for this is :- 1) Put an inner cover (with an access whole in it) over the top supper. 2) Put 1 empty supper over the inner cover. 3) Put a supper with stickies over the empty supper) 4) Normal lid over the top The bees will "rob" the stickies very quickly and bring it all down to their normal storage. The empty supper is important. It convinces the bees that the stickies are not part of the hive and that should not use them for storage. The inner cover (with access whole) may help in this deception but is probably less important. However, as the bees rob the stickies, they can drop quite a lot debris. The inner cover will catch the debris. Trap for new players The bees will clean the "sticky" from the stickies in just a few days. After all the "sticky" has been cleaned up, you will still see bees busy on the "clean stickies". This may give you the false impression the stickies are still "sticky". Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:44:33 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This summer I have been using mowed grass from the lawn. I let it dry for a day or so, then rake it and store under cover in plastic bags. Its kind of hard to get going, but burns relatively cool. I like the smell too, not sure about the bees though. Burlap burns good but is hard to come by. I tried old egg cartons for awhile but found they burned quite hot in my opinion. Doug Henry, Lockport Manitoba On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Garey B. Spradley wrote: > This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my > smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I > pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? > > > Judy > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > A Displaced Texan in PA gspradley@gcc.edu > Iron Acres - where the water is red and the grass is green! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:13:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MR MARK G SPAGNOLO Subject: smoker fuel Hi: I have been following the discussion on smoker fuels. Here at Kona Queen we used to use wood scraps. It gave a nice smoke, but we use literally tons of fuel every year, (fifteen full time beekeepers for nine months of the year and nine for the other three months), and the expense was enormous. We now use a commerical product designed for a pellet stove. This stuff is pressed and extruded wood chips. It kind of looks like rabbit droppings. We purchase it in bags on a pallet. It is kind of hard to start, but a lot of newspaper and some forced air from the compressor blown through the bottom of the smoker fixes that problem. The only modification to the smoker is the use of a screen on the top to keep the "pellets" from blowing out the top. This fuel with burn all day and even into the night. I have had my smoker stay lit for two days straight! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:15:21 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Honey Show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to those who offered me advice on preparing honey for my entry last week in the Manitoba Honey Show. I scored 94 out of a 100 and finished fourth in the Open Basic Category. I lost the 6 points for excess moisture, getting 14 points from possible 20. I received maximum points for other categories including maximum allowable for taste and aroma which made it all worth while. During discussions with other beekeepers at the show I was told that continued use of the same brood chambers over a prolonged period of use would lead to smaller bees. The theory being that brood cells become smaller due to scale or other residue left behind thereby curtailing size of larvae. Is there any validity to this staement. If so, how often should one change brood chambers. As a follow-on question are frames used for honey production suitable for use for brood rearing or should one use virgin frames only. Thanks, Doug Henry, Lockport Manitoba ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:19:17 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: smoker fuel In-Reply-To: <199611010013.TAA14994@mime4.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have a pellet burning stove and keep several bags of pellets on hand. I don't have enough hives to justifying using this method but it sounds useful for the larger enterprises. I plan to try it anyway. Thanks for the info. Doug Henry, Lockport Manitoba On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, MR MARK G SPAGNOLO wrote: > Hi: > I have been following the discussion on smoker fuels. Here at Kona > Queen we used to use wood scraps. It gave a nice smoke, but we use > literally tons of fuel every year, (fifteen full time beekeepers for > nine months of the year and nine for the other three months), and the > expense was enormous. > We now use a commerical product designed for a pellet stove. This > stuff is pressed and extruded wood chips. It kind of looks like > rabbit droppings. > We purchase it in bags on a pallet. It is kind of hard to start, but > a lot of newspaper and some forced air from the compressor blown > through the bottom of the smoker fixes that problem. > The only modification to the smoker is the use of a screen on the top > to keep the "pellets" from blowing out the top. > This fuel with burn all day and even into the night. I have had my > smoker stay lit for two days straight! > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:20:04 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wilson Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I had the opportunity to talk to 37 beekeepers across Western Canada earlier this year. One of the questions was the type of smoker fuel they used. In Alberta most people used burlap (jute) potato sacking. In Saskatchewan rolled up corrugated card board obtained from grocery stores was the most common fuel. Manitoba beekeepers favoured "punky" oak - a common tree by the Souris River. A beekeeper I worked for in North Eastern Alberta had discovered that newspaper has a "grain" - it tears easier in one direction better than the other. He tore strips of a complete section of the Edmonton Journal. The strips are 1/2" and are torn starting from the centre fold to the outer edge. The strips are loosely put into the smoker - you light the first few with a ZIPPO ( the world's best lighter!) . Stuff some more strips in, mking sure that they are loosely "jumbled up" before putting them in. Keep the smoker fairly full. Give the smoker a tap on the ground stir up the fuel and keep it in contact. I suppose the large exposed surface area of the strips of newspaper make this effective - whole sheets of newspaper are useless. regards Peter Wilson email: pjwilson@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:28:44 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jim G. Shoemaker" Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Over the years I have tried lots of smoker fuels but have decided I prefer untreated baler twine. I wrap it around my fingers several turns then wind the loose end aound the turns. Fits the smoker neatly with a chimney in the center. Place two or three of these in the smoker. Drop a lighted piece of paper in the center and off you go. If I wore gloves I would not close the smoker until my gloves were on. Less chance for the smoker to go out for lack of puffing. Jim Shoemaker Brookline, MO (near Springfield and Bass Pro Shop. About cleaning wet supers. If you are concerned about the spread of disease, do you make sure that you put the same supers on the hives on which they were previously used. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:28:12 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hervey Heywood Subject: Re: smoker fuel 101 To the rest of us beekeepers of few years: When I started keeping bees, there seemed to be two main problems-- finding the queen, and keeping the damn smoker going. Then, along came mites, so I had three. Queens are more obvious now (always when I'm not looking); most of the recommended smoker fuels were tried, with poor to fairly good results, until recently, when EUREKA!, an outstanding breakthrough came. A bit of paper, a match, then poke in some kindling material-- hay bale twine, wood shavings, whatever. When these get going, add a handful or two of wood pellets-- you know, the kind made for those new patent stoves. Puff things into action, add a balled-up wad of green grass to filter and cool, and go work the bees! The pellets are cheap; a bag lasts forever; burns cleaner than most things I've tried. One fueling of the smoker goes on and on, like the Energizer bunny. But remember to test the smoke against the bare hand before smoking the bees, renewing the cooling filter now and then. As for the mites, I'm reading this forum closely, and learning more from the experience and wisdom of the contributors. Hervey hervey.heywood@cyber-quest.com 607-565-3651 --six hives, upstate New York-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:24:23 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: BEE-L Logs & stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I started answering this as a personal response, then thought that it's about time to remind the new members how to go back in history. ...So I'm sending it to the list. > I am writing to you since as I understood you run the Bee-L > list. I wonder why can't I get to the archives of the group? > Is there any problem, or the archives are not available > anymore? Well, I don't actually run the list, but I do particpate frequently as one of the 500 or so equal particpants -- such as yourself. Aaron Morris is the brains behind this list and keeps it running. As for me, I've just been around for a while, and at one time used to carry the archives on my WWW server. Since the Logs have grown very large and been broken into weekly segments it got to be too much work and I gave up. Adam F. was keeping all but the most recent log on Sunsite -- along with logs from sci.agriculture.beekeeping , but I don't know if he has added any since I quit sending them to him. Maybe he'll say. I know he is pretty busy too. http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/ is a good place to start looking around his site. (Actually I just looked and the last BEE-L log I see is LOG9605). maybe I'll order up all the intervening logs and send them to Adam so he can install them in the archive. (Actually one of the reasons I quit this archiving was that I was never hearing from more than the occasional person using them. If enough people write me and request them, it gets me feeling inspired). And, BTW, if all else fails, you can still get the archives by email from LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU By sending a message saying get bee-l log9610A log9610a means the log for 10th month of 96 and the letter 'a' means the first week. Use 'b' for the second week, etc. Please give me some feedback if you care about these logs on the web and also let me know if you need more help. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:15:16 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Quick 'n Easy Cappings Processing On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:59:10 -0500 Faith Andrews Bedford writes: > >To clean or not to clean, that is the question. Faith, Another approach is to put them back on the hive they came from, only put them on the _bottom_ of the hive, with a queen excluder above. They clean them out and put it upstairs, and the queen can't get downstairs. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:57:48 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garey B. Spradley wrote: > > This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my > smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I > pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? > > Judy The normal problem I see when someone can't get a smoker to stay lit, is they are trying to build their fire on top of the fuel. If this is the case, try building your fire in the bottom of the empty smoker. Then gradually add your fuel to get a cool smoldering source of smoke. Once going good you just have to make sure you don't let it get too hot. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net -- End --