Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id AA73184012C; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:27:47 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2765; Thu, 14 Nov 96 10:32:13 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6663; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:32:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:31:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9611A" To: "W. Allen Dick" X-UIDL: 588 Status: U ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:27:18 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>What is the best smoker fuel which is least harmful to the bees. I have >>used pine needles, white pine needles, burlap, popsickle sticks, paper >>and other materials. >>All answers will be read. >>Thank you. >> >I use cotton that is left on the side of the road after cotton harvest. I >have to let the cotton dry out or put it in the oven to dry. This is a >cheap and cool burning fuel. > >I have also used: > >Cardboard rolled into bundles that will fit into the smoker. Leave enough >space to light the lower edge of the roll. This seems to be a cool smoke >that I have seen no adverse effect on the bees. > >Old blue jeans (denim) the smoke is cool and it's a good use of old jeans. >It is sometimes hard to start because of the tight weave so I use old cotton >towels that are too worn to dry anything as a starter fuel. > > >Richard Barnes I like to use rabbit food it is cool,easy to controll how much smoke from a lot to very little and it doesnt go out. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:49:00 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Smoke - it lasts for hours Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You are without a doubt one of the most interesting writers on this board thank you. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:15:40 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi Bee-L folks: > >From the last 'friendly discussion' between David, Pure Jane, and some other >concerned beekepers. I would like to see the calories in the donut, >therefore I will explain myself a bit: > >>Pure Jane wrote: >>...all the dirty were from poorer >>countries and ignore the facts the health conditions are being stressed >>in our countries and all the living things that imported and exported >>should pass a strict examination... > >1) Born and bred in Mexico, I know first had that sometimes (if not always) >the regulations (if any) are just pure ink on a sheet of paper. In Mexico, >if you know how to pull the right strings, you can even get yourself an >authentic Death Certificate from a Qualified Practitioner. > >>Mauricio Montes-Castillo wrote> >>Ohh No!!!! I can foresee some Tropilaelaps on the way..... > >In a very interesting article that Andy-OLd Drone was kind to post for us >about Tropilaelaps clareae survivability, writen by J. Woyke and S. Chen, >the introduction reads... > >"Tropilaelaps clareae is more dangerous parasitic mite of Apis mellifera, >than Varroa jacobsonii is (Woyke 1984). Therefore it is important to know >its biology...." > >Having suffered on my own bees (Mexico 1982-1988) the damage caused by the >nasty vampire mites, I perfectly understand the concern and anger of some >beekeepers when we contemplate the irresponsible movement of live animals >between countries and even worse, between continents. >It looks to me that the same story is about to be repeated, that is how the >AHB, Acarapis, Varroa and the like got to the American Continent. >I dont want to be pesimistic but I realy wish that with one apology I could >solve all the problems the North-South American beekeeping industry is >facing now. >Yours > >Mauricio >We keep missing a few points. Bees are not native to this continant to >begin with, they came from europe. Bee breeders from America have >relocated to europe in order to import resistant bees which h ave survived >desease over there. This stregthens our gene pool. New information shows >bee virus to be the possible main problem more than mites. It is our lack >of information which scares us.( ignorance ) People from other countrys do >not have intimate knowlege of U.S. law. Brother Adam was not an American >bee keeper but we have his bees inour country. If we isolate our selves we >will get the same unhealthy in breeding which has distroyed so muc in the >past. Most of the fruit trees that we pollinate come from china >originally. Not all people who speak english is articulate enough to >completely comunicate. We are ambassadors in the international >comunity,diplomacy helps. We all read this board to hear about ideas other >than our own. There must be a way to import the genes safeley and legaly, >we could certanly benifit from a more diverse gene pool. If we want >International in put on this list,it may behoove us to keep a calmer head >before we answer. Jerry Fries > > > > > >David Erie wrote > >2) > >********************************************************************** >"The optimist sees the donut...the pessimist sees the hole... > but the realist sees the calories." -Anonimous- > >Mauricio Montes Castillo (DVM, M.Ag.) Ph: (617) 3365-2580 >Dept. of Farm Animal Medicine & Production FAX: (617) 3365-1288 >The University of Queensland >Brisbane, QLD 4072 >Australia. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:27:14 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Africanized honey bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Wed 30 Oct 1996 Stan Sandler in Canada asked for further >comment about the legality of mailing bees around the world. > >He said "Hopefully it is NOT LEGAL to just mail bees from >a country where tropilaelaps exists to another continent where it >doesn't (although with all the problems in Nicaragua I'm sure >that bee inspection is not much of a priority}." > >In general the legality of such an action depends on the >importing country, which sets its own laws to protect the health of >its bee population. Some countries may have limited, or no, bee >health protection measures, in which case the importation of >bees infested with tropilaelaps might well be 'legal'. Many >pest/disease introductions have been effected through 'legal' >movements of bees. > >I don't know about the current bee disease laws in Nicaragua. >The International Bee Reseach Association published a >bibliography reviewing bee disease (and beekeeping) >legislation around the world, though it might not be very current. > >As tropilaelaps has become an issue in international trade >'relatively' recently it is not covered by the "International animal >health code; mammals, birds, bees"; produced by the OIE (the >world organization for animal health) as a guide to official >veterinarians setting health-protection measures for >international trade. A current project I am involved with is the >review of the chapters of this Code which relate to bee diseases, >and tropilaelaps will certainly be looked at as part of this review. > >In the meantime I guess we should remember that even though >things are lawful, they may not be helpful > >Andrew Matheson > >(Personal opinion; not necessarily that of the New Zealand >Ministry of Agriculture) In America we already have every critter in existnce. Protecting ourselves from mites is like closing the barn door after the horse is out. We should close our borders to protect the rest of the world from us. This former is an attempt at humor but does have a point. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:56:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BRIAN HENSEL Subject: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 (SAN FRANSISCO, CA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HELLO ALL BEEKEEPERS! Allen Dick wrote: > > > They have mentioned a surprise coming to the bee's rescue. I will > > watch and report on it if anybody is interested. It looks good but I > > I'll be interested to hear about that. > > Regards > > Allen > > W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK > RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 > Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net > Honey. Bees, & Art EDWIN BADGET WROTE "Is station channel 4 a public station?" "Will it air again?" Yes, channel 4 KRON is a local station here in California. It was more of a news report and not likely to be aired again. ANDY NACHBAUR WROTE "Was it hype or fact?" Maybe they will give Honey Nut Cheerios a plug. It was very factual because they interviewed two local beekeepers, Mr. Frank Carrier, and Dave Williams. Frank has a store that he sells his honey and beekeeping supplies, and bee's wax candles. He said that he now has to sell Apistan strips for the varroa mite problem, something he never had until a couple years ago. He said that people are starting to realize that their gardens and vegetables are not producing any fruit and vegetables. They wonder where has all the bee's gone? Frank said that there are no wild bee's to pollinate gardens and the only bee's around are from his hives. Dave Williams talked about the need for a long term solution to the varroa problem, that apistan is just a stop gap solution. He said that large agriculture depends on pollination, and that they have not yet been effected dramatically but could be soon, if a better solution is not found quickly. The reason for this is because most beekeepers have been able to keep varroa under control. The reporters said that varroa has completely wiped out all the wild hives and the only bee's that are seen are those kept by beekeepers. They reported that according to UC Davis entomologists varroa has shown that they can build up a resistance to apistan and that is what is really scary. They reported that big corporate American businesses have began to worry, that something must be done, and showed that General Mills is starting the Save The Bee campaign. They explained that part of the money will go to UC Davis for more research. Over all the report was accurate, but I think that they could have spent allot more time on the subject. They reported that apistan is the only thing available to fight against varroa, which I think is inaccurate. They didn't mention anything about essential oil research, or the possible breeding varroa resistant bee's. I think that this is the real answer. If we can somehow breed bee's to have a grooming habit, where they will groom each other, then the varroa won't have a chance to get started, even in those bee's that swarm. If there are any queen breeders on Bee-L do you think that this is possible? If there is a possibility to breed bee's to be good, groomers how much of this trait can be strengthened to the point that it is 100% affective? Several people have asked me if there was a local bee club that I belong to. Yes, I am a member of the Sonoma County Beekeepers Association, so is my 8 year old daughter, who has fallen in love with bee's, and she has learned so much, she wants to start a hive next spring of her own. My one hive is free of varroa, and I have just requeened the 1st of October, and the new queen is laying eggs like mad. I will remove the apistan strips next month and try essential oils, and try and keep varroa out. BRIAN HENSEL bjhensel@metro.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:04:03 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Honey Show Doug, It's good practice to rotate out brood comb ever 2-3 years, (say two frames per box per year.) This let's you not have to try draw a whole box worth at once, and allows the brood comb to be renewed. Any toxins go with... My honey supers are a different height from the hive body, (so a loaded super won't be so heavy,) so I wouldn't want to interchange them. Comments from the list on small bees?? Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:15:21 -0600 Doug Henry writes: > >During discussions with other beekeepers at the show I was told that >continued use of the same brood chambers over a prolonged period of >use >would lead to smaller bees. The theory being that brood cells become >smaller due to scale or other residue left behind thereby curtailing >size of >larvae. Is there any validity to this staement. If so, how often >should >one change brood chambers. As a follow-on question are frames used for >honey production suitable for use for brood rearing or should one use >virgin frames only. > >Thanks, Doug Henry, Lockport Manitoba > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:11:57 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: smoker fuel 101 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember reading (about 30 years ago) that if one was to put a bit of ammonium nitrate (now, it has been a .ong tiome and the chemists out there will be able to tell us if I came up with the correct compound) in your smoker it would produce laughing gas and put the bees to sleep. When they woke up their memoties would be blank (well somewhat blank) and one could move the hive a few feet or yards and they would orient themselves to the new location and never remember where the hive had been before. This could also be used to sedate(hypnotize) an intansigent hive. On a similiar topicI remember reading in popular science about the same time that if one attached a transducer the vibrated at a certain frequency it would stop the bees from moving. I remember discussing this with Adrian Wenner about this time but we never came up with a test. No, I don't remember the frequency or decibles needed. My memory is pretty good but not perfect. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:50:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects DE>After the last 48 hrs it was refreshing to have a good Ha ha! Both Jean and >I were in stitches over this and other recent postings. Your problems with >rattle snakes makes our problems with skunks and ants seem very tame!! Hi North Pole Friends, We got pole cats, skunks, civet cats, spotted skunks, and cuteamondays, and some fun experiences with all as pets and pests, but some of that stuff is to rank even for beekeepers that I have not dug into it, but I will someday. At the same time I am not the only one who has made every mistake in the beeyard book and hope others will reciprocate with some of their own experiences.. > Would you please take a few moments and tell me (us) what "liquid >smoke" is and how to use it? You get this stuff, "BAR-B-Q" smoke flavoring in the 1/2 or 1 gallon size containers at the big food barns, or wholesale food stores. I don't use it myself so I can not say how much you delete it, but knowing how beekeeper kill snakes you start out at 100% and if that does not kill the bees you work down by adding water, until the cost of the final product is equal to the cost of a one cent post card or you can start out with a equal amount of water, shake it up and do not put it in the spray bottle until you are ready to use so you can shake the carry bottle again if it all separates before you get to use it. I would like to add here my own humble opinion that what makes these things work is the frame of mind of the beekeeper using them, the beekeepers tolerance to pain, and the same type of ingredients that are found in any product containing the so called essential oils which are in common everyday use in all kinds of household products, and food, maybe 2nd only to sugar and salt. What I am saying is that if you are interested in say Wintergreen Oil, (the cheep one) to control mites, (the big one's), or better yet thymol, (not so cheep), but is already a smoke'ee smelling natural product well known as a mite killer, you could use these same products deleted to calm bees because they all seem to have some effect if deleted enough and anatomized in a windex type spray bottle, in fact it would not surprise me that you could use the new pink "COUNTRY GARDEN POTPOURRI WINDEX" itself, just don't get carried away and always go prepared with your smoker and veil. The standard product warning that all should remember is that most of the 100% pure undulated natural products called essential oils will take the paint off a WW II battle ship just a quick as Navel Jelly and should be handled with the same respect. It may be safer for some to start out with the cheep Thrifty Mouth Wash as a mite frighten'er and wait for the final say on the heavy duty stuff for smoking bees or frightening bee pests. And for Honey's sake, remember that the more smoke you use, be it real or not, the more you will get in the honey and nobody likes honey that tastes like smoke unless it from the wild Thyme plants themselves that is said to have a natural smoke flavor in the honey made from it's nectar. Not sure if thats true, but we got some that grows wild in the hills here and I am sure I have tasted it several times and it was smokey tasting, but never got enough to extract to really test. Good Luck and please report any failures...! ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:20:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Quarantine in Australia In a recent Bee-L, Chris Allen mentioned that we in Australia have a very strict quarantine system in place. To show you how serious we are in keeping out unwanted pest such as varroa, tracheal mites, Tropilaelaps and Africanised bees, I thought I would give Bee-Liners a brief outline of our requirements. Firstly, before a queen bee can be imported to Australia, the hive from which it is coming must have miticide strips placed in that hive for 56 days. There is the usual documentation to be filled out in the country from which it is coming. The queen bee must be mailed to our Quarantine Authorities here in Australia. When it arrives, the queen bee is taken out, examined visually for mites and placed in a new queen mailing cage with fresh escorts. The escorts, which accompanied the queen bee to Australia, are examined externally and internally for any mites and other diseases and viruses. The queen bee is held in the new mailing cage for 14 days. After this time the escorts are examined, externally and internally, for mites. If they are free, then the queen bee is introduced into a nucleus colony in a flight cage. This nucleus colony also has miticide strips placed in it. This way, there is no access to outside bees. Once the queen is successfully introduced, there is a wait till there is hatching brood available so that a DNA test can be carried out for Africanised genes. If this is satisfactory, then the importer is allowed to graft larvae from the nucleus colony. This is then taken away from the quarantine station and rasied in the importers hives outside the station. When the importer has completed the grafting, the nucleus colony is destroyed by burning. The queen bee is never released into the Australian environment. Only the grafted larvae are allowed to leave the station. So you can see that we are serious about our quarantine and do not wish to have people breaching that quarantine. If people try to illegally bring in queen bees, we have dogs at the airports and mail centres that are trained to detect bees, along with other items such as plants and meat. I have given a brief outline of our procedue for importing stock to Australia that I hope will be of interest to other beekeepers. If anyone wants to have the official documentation, I will be able to send them to you. Trevor Weatherhead ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:20:27 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollination Services Subject: IBUPROFEN Comments: cc: yad_mord@netvision.net.il MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Bee -L members, Some time ago there was a discussion at this group of the potential danger of IBUPROFEN to people who got stung. Could any body supply, please, a medical report about this issue. I mean, one which include symptoms, recommendation for treatment applied by the common people as well as by a doctor & contraindications for the use of drugs containig this substance by beekeepers. In short, any information will be appreciated, including addresses to ask from. Thanks Weil Dan Kibbutz Yad-Mordechai Apiary. ISRAEL 79145 Fax:972-7-6720663------------------------------------- Name: WEil Dan Pollination Services Yad-Mordechai E-mail: yad_mord@netvision.net.il Date: 31/10/1996 Time: 08:20:27 PM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:04:34 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 A good general rule is "Don't use man-made or processed items as smoker fuel". Chemical, paints, metals, and who knows what else may be present. The paint on that burlap sack may be toxic when burned. That cardboard may have been sprayed with a roach kiiler. One reliable source is wood chips/sawdust sold as bedding for hamsters/rabbits. Either pine or cedar or a mixture gives a nice smelling smoke. If you have a saw mill or even a cabinet maker locally you might even get all you want in exchange for a jar of honey. Just make sure it is only unprocessed wood and not something with resins (particle board, masonite ect.). For the more frugal with woodlands about, collecting well rotted, punky wood; the kind that is spongy and wet and drying it provides a good natural and free source of fuel. Adding dryed sumac flower heads can make a very pleasant smelling smoke. I'm sure the bees could care less but there is no point in assualting your nose and eyes. Jim Moore ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:38:37 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Ibuprofen sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Weil Dan requested sources for information regarding the ibuprofen article that was passed around and beaten up on BEE-L last month. The sources included in the Ibuprofen article are listed below. I never investigated further than the article as it's easy enough to avoid the xx-profens. I would be interested in follow-up information anyone discovers if newer information is available. After all, the '93 reprint is from an '86 journal. Seems that a decade later there should be something more current. Sincerely, Aaron Morris >---------------------------------------------------------------------< REPRINTED FROM: MISSISSIPPI DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND COMMERCE BUREAU OF PLANT INDUSTRY P.O. BOX 5207 MISSISSIPPI STATE, MS APRIL, 1993 The following is an interesting and need-to-know article printed in the Maryland Beekeeping newsletter with the per- mission of the author. It is taken from the book "Under- standing Prescription Drugs", by Dorthy L. Smith, Pharm D., pp. 270 and 271; Reference: British Medical Journal 292:378, 1986. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:56:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Quarantine in Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > In a recent Bee-L, Chris Allen mentioned that we in Australia have a > very strict quarantine system in place. This subject is a fascinating one: the idea that law and regulation can control people 100%. (and >0.0001% avoidance in this case can mean failure of all efforts). Interestingly enough, inspite of strong laws against all manner of behaviour, all that can be accomplished is a _reduction_ in the outlawed acts. Canada has strong prohibitions aginst imports of bees from the US, yet tens of thousands of US queens find their way into Canada annually -- at least if I am to believe rumours from usually reliable sources. Canada has had regulations against import of bees on comb -- or even comb -- from the States as far back as I can remember, but nonetheless I recall stopping at the truck weigh station at Floods in BC twenty years or so ago when I was returning from wintering in the Fraser Valley: I had a friendly chat with a Highway patrolman at the scale who asked -- seeing the nice white hives tied down on my deck -- if the hives I had on the truck were coming back from the States. I asked why he wondered that. "Why?", he said, "Oh, every year for years a fellow drove through here in the fall taking his beehives south to California, and came back every spring with his bee hives (not packages -- I carefully assured myself of that!)." Hmmmm. Right under the nose of the authorities. And probably quite innocently. Another tale: Years and years ago, I was a bee inspector. Shortly after leaving that job, I was looking through the ads for a Hobie Cat (sailing catamaran), and I happened to go to look at one in Calgary. well, you know what happens if you let it slip that you are a beeman -- everyone has to tell you everything he knows about bees. So this fellow who was selling the boat , immediately started talking about his friend who had a few hives. Seems that felow was a European immigrant and had gone back to the old country. On returning, he had slipped a few queens of the stock he had used and loved as a boy into his pocket and flown home and told his friends about it. I'm sure he had no idea about laws and mites. there is good reason to believe that the way varroa got into some southern BC area was simply that Portuguese immigrants on the US side took bees across to their families in closely adjacent areas in Canada when visiting -- they can just walk across a bridge --- without knowing about the law. Between the US and canada, I understand that there are long areas where anyone can walk -- or drive -- across the international border without knowing -- or being bothered by anyone most of the time. This is one story about the origin of varroa in southern Manitoba. I have noticed that ignoring the law when convenient tends to be the rule rather than the exception -- when the regulators aren't looking. If you drive on a freeway, and drive the limit, you will see how seriously our fellow citizens take the law -- especially one that gets in their way. If they even think twice about the law, it is mostly about avoiding capture. When it comes to obscure things like laws about bees, many -- including beekeepers -- are blissfully ignorant of the rules. Anyhow to get back to the point: I certainly don't believe for a minute that the only bees getting into Aus, the US, or any other country are those that the authorities know about, or that it will ever be otherwise. The reasons that the pests which surely must accompany them occasionally do not get a foothold is simply dumb luck. maybe we do not see an outbreak because the pests usually bring their nemesis (diseases and parasirtes) with them, and until a healthy sample makes it across, they do not stand the stress of transplanting to the new environment, or perhaps they kill their host before getting established. Now, I don't know much about tropilaelaps, but I was asking around. I'm sure glad that many on the list here are watching out for it and we sure don't want it. However, from what I have heard, it is not something restricted to bees. It even uses mammals as a host. I understand that that includes people and rats. Since these two scourges travel freely throughout the world, we wonder why they are not here already. I confess I am a bit lazy when it comes to researching further, but think that maybe we should know our enemy. Maybe someone has better information on this pest at her fingertips and would like to discuss it a bit further. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:31:30 EDT Reply-To: twelsh@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tillie Welsh Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: BEE COURSE UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH; GUELPH, ONTARIO BEE COURSE "ONE OF A KIND " Bees covering great distances is a well-documented fact. But beekeepers can "go the distance" now too. That's because the University of Guelph provides a unique learning opportunity to know "everything about bees" via its distance learning course, THE COMPLETE BEEKEEPER. All the latest information about bees and beekeeping is available in this one comprehensive and concise package of video and print materials. From bee biology to getting started at beekeeping to diseases and pollination, this course covers the territory. THE COMPLETE BEEKEEPER is unlike conventional education programs; it is designed for people who need a flexible learning schedule. This course is for those who want or need to learn at home or at work,independently. With an interactive approach to both the video material and the course manual, the course is self directed. People learn where they prefer and what they need to when it is convenient for them. ( it's just like reading a magazine and watching informative TV). Over 30 photographs and 90 diagrams enhance the easy to use manual. Thirteen fact-filled chapters, supplemental information and a videotape, TROUBLESHOOTING IN THE BEE YARD- all produced by Independent Study/OAC ACCESS at Guelph- make this course a must for anyone involved in the beekeeping business who wants to know more on their terms. Some of the topics covered in "The Complete Beekeeper" are: pollen collection, working with bees, swarming, harvesting the honey, marketing the honey, diseases and pests, hive products like beeswax and royal jelly, and managing bees for crop pollination. For people wanting to earn an academic credit toward the "Ontario Diploma in Horticulture", success requires completion of three mail- in assignments that learners complete at their own pace and return to the University of Guelph for assessment. The videotape presents ten bee yard scenarios. In each, the viewer is asked to answer specific questions using Video Worksheets (included with the course). In the final three scenarios, students complete the Video Worksheets and include them with the final mail-in assignment. THE COMPLETE BEEKEEPER is a completely unique learning opportunity in North America. Nothing else like it exists to help people learn - via distance learning - everything about keeping bees. The course plus video costs $225.00. (Price is subject to change.) ORDER THE COMPLETE BEEKEEPER by calling 1 800 263 4499 OR 519 767 5050 Fax your order, including Visa or Mastercard number and expiry date to 519 824 9813. Or contact: Independent Study/OAC ACCESS Johnston Hall, University of Guelph, Ontario CANADA N1G 2W1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:09:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 >This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my >smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I >pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? Judy, I have been doing it so long I can do it in the dark with my eyes closed and I have the same problem. I believe it has something to do with the redesign of the smoker some years back to make them fire safe or something but I have learned some really neat tricks to get nice bellowing clouds of cool smoke that will last for some time on a fill up. The problem is that some of the needed ingredients may not be available to all or in all areas of the bee world. 1. There is nothing better then used press sack from a bees wax rendering plant, the more slum gum the better. It burns cool and long and does not throw a lot of sparks if the smoker is kept stuffed ahead of the fire. 2. Burlap, jute, or some cotton sacks can be used and are available in many farm areas at reasonable, (sometimes) free prices. This material can be treated with old or new oil, cheep mobil wax, even salt peter I have been told and it will burn without going out, but sometimes it will not only drive the bees out but you will find your own head in a cloud of smoke that would give a coal miner black lung. In rare cases sack from pesticide treated seed has been used, but I would not use this as it is a good way to make yourself deathly sick. 3. If you lived in the sticker bush part of Texas, there is nothing as good as dried cow dung, 2nd in my experience to old fish net. I am sure that those who have not the experience are grinning ear to ear knowing that I am putting you on, but it is true, and there is a difference between the cow dung of the sticker bush desert and that of the green grass or the irrigated cow pasture. Because of the unbelievable amount of dry material the cows of the southwest desert must consume each day the cow pies are really Texas size and contain much more heavy matter that burns cooler, longer, and with more smoke then that wet stuff the northern and eastern beekeepers are always stepping in and trying to burn in their smokers..You may have to get someone in Texas to send you a box full to try, make sure to ask for the BIG flat one's the size and shape of a medium combination pizza from the Pizza Hut. The dry season's production is better then the wet season. You can also lay one of these in a big flower pot filed with soil, and water and start your own Honey Mesquite or Cat Claw plants if you are interested in planting something that makes good honey, food for cattle, and the hottest burning firewood on earth. I have several full grown Mesquite trees here in California that I started that way from high quality Sonorian desert cow pies from northern Mexico. I bet few know or even want to know that there are world class scientists that have made a lifetimes work out of studying cow pies and just have scratched the surface of the knowledge to be gained from their study, some of which has been very helpful to beekeepers in the southwest who are trying to protect the Mesquite and other sticky brush plants that provides some of the worlds best white honey from eradication by ranchers and others with little worldly knowledge other then their own selfish interests. Until you walk into a court house being towed by lawyers from the Sierra Club, friendly newspaper writers, and other experts to introduce into evidence sworn scientific testimony from a scat scientist you have not walked in the shoes of the true American environmentalist beekeeper para legal..or into the lion's den. Anyway over the years I have learned that there is nothing a beekeeper has not tried to burn in his smoker as there is not much that he has not tried when caught short in the tall grass without any 'nice and soft' including the leaves of the poison oak plant. It's all a matter of whats at hand and experience, good judgement, and personal preference. I liked pressed paper egg cartons when I was in junior high and had one hive that I never did learn how to keep alive until I worked several summers for a commercial beekeepers as a beekeeper louse or gopher... ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... As doth the meadow-bee, ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:50:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Caucasian Strain of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think I might try a couple of Caucasian queens next spring in my top bar hives. I would enjoy email conversations with any of you who keep/kept Caucasians. Do you think they'd do better in tbh's than Italians? Seems that I read somewhere that Caucasians are reluctant to spread brood upward. Any information that you can supply would be appreciated. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: Ian Watson Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Quarantine in Australia Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello I was wondering if someone could explain the "Tropilaelaps" that have seen mentioned recentluy on the list. My monitor was out of order for a few weeks in September, and I have yet to catch up on the posts that came then. Thanks.. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:42:31 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Brains!? Not me, but have I got LOGS for you! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding BEE-L LOGS, someone posted to Allen, and Allen responded: > >> I am writing to you since as I understood you run the Bee-L >> list. I wonder why can't I get to the archives of the group? >> Is there any problem, or the archives are not available >> anymore? > >Well, I don't actually run the list, but I do participate frequently >as one of the 500 or so equal participants -- such as yourself. > >Aaron Morris is the brains behind this list >and keeps it running. > Well, I can't really take the credit either. My "pays the mortgage" job is as the system administrator for the IBM system at the University at Albany, which hosts BEE-L. As I recall (and this is my recollection which is most likely fiction based on threads of real fact) BEE-L was originally started by the late Edward E. Southwick of SUNY Brockport (both the University at Albany and SUNY Brockport are part of the State University of New York system, and UA had better resources to host the list than Brockport). My association with BEE-L is merely an excuse to pay close attention to this list to help me to be fluent in the internals of LISTSERV. LISTSERV is the software that makes LISTSERV lists possible, was written by Eric Thomas and is supported and marketed by Eric's company, LSOFT. As far as being the "brains behind this list and keeping it running", I am flattered, but can make no claim greater than that of a janitor. I am not even the list owner, just the system administrator of the system on which BEE-L is hosted. Now, this discussion started from references to BEE-L logs. BEE-L logs dating back to July 1989 are available from LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu via the LISTSERV command: GET BEE-L LOGyrmn (where yr is the year and mn is the month). Hence, to get the logs from July, 1989 one must send a command to LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu (please, please, please note that the command goes to LISTSERV, not BEE-L) that reads: GET BEE-L LOG8907 The LISTSERV command is the only line in the body of the mail (not the "NAME" field or the "SUBJECT" field, both of which are optional as far as LISTSERV is concerned). If a user correctly sends the GET command as described above, LISTSERV will reward that user by returning to them the BEE-L log from July, 1989. As the logs got bigger, I configured LISTSERV to archive the logs weekly rather than monthly and I split BEE-L LOGS on a weekly basis back through January 1996. Thus, to retrieve the BEE-L logs for the first week in January, 1996 the command to LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu would be: GET BEE-L LOG9601A To get the BEE-L log for the first week in January, 1995, the command to LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu would be: GET BEE-L LOG9501 in which case LISTSERV will return the log for all of January, 1995 because that's how LISTSERV has the logs for any time prior to 1996. To see what is available from LISTSERV, send a command to LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu that reads: INDEX BEE-L LISTSERV will return to you an index of the BEE-L LOGS that are available. Now, the REAL challenge! in all this is determining what information is available in what logs. This is accomplished by using the higher level database functions in LISTSERV, which I will not even attempt to explain here. Users who are interested in the database functions (of which SEARCH is a subset) should send a command to: >> at this point, everyone yells: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu which reads: GET LISTDB MEMO and LISTSERV will return to the requestor "an introduction to the LISTSERV database functions." Finally, when queries were posted a month or two back about how used the BEE-L LOGS were, responses seemed to indicate that the majority of subscribers liked following current discussion, but few were interested in the archives. But for those who are interested, the information is there and I hope this missal will be helpful to them. Aaron Morris - Thinking I'll keep my day job. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:46:48 -0500 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Organization: HOLLY-B APIARY Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 wrote:> > > Adding dryed sumac flower heads can make a very > pleasant smelling smoke. I'm sure the bees could care > less but there is no point in assualting your nose and > eyes. > > Jim Moore I find that the combination of sumac and burlap works great! Lots of smoke and lasts a long time.You can buy burlap at WalMart. Midnitebee http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:17:05 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:21 PM 10/31/96 -0600, you wrote: >This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my >smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I >pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? > Judy, You will no doubt get lots of suggestions here but here is mine anyway. What fuel are you using? Try burlap for a fuel. If it still goes out then your smoker may need cleaning. I don't meam the black gunk that builds up on the inside but rather the air entrance (that spot where the bellows blows air into the burning chamber). Good luck. Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:23:20 CST6CDT Reply-To: daniel.houg@sunny.health.state.mn.us Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dan Houg Organization: MN DEPT OF HEALTH Subject: Smoker bellows repair tip. i just couldn't stand to get rid of my old smoker. but the bellows fabric, just a rubberized cloth weave, was peeling and so porous i couldn't get any 'poof' from it anymore. the new smokers seemed too shiny. too new. and those guard cages seemed like just another liability shield on my lawnmower. so i fixed it. here's what you do... buy a tube of 100% silicone window caulk. go ahead and splurge and get the 50 year stuff. clear. squeeze a bunch out onto the bellows and slather it around thinly. do the whole bellows, not just where the fabric seems worn. let it dry a couple days. it restored the 'POOF' and seems to be holding up quite well. thinly applied, it is flexible and seals air pressure wonderfully. and i still get to keep my encrusted, rusty smoker. :-) -dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:27:13 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garrett Dodds Subject: Re: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 (SAN FRANSISCO, CA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Brian Hensel Wrote: They reported that apistan is the >only thing available to fight against varroa, which I think is >inaccurate. They didn't mention anything about essential oil research, >or the possible breeding varroa resistant bee's. I think that this is >the real answer. If we can somehow breed bee's to have a grooming >habit, where they will groom each other, then the varroa won't have a >chance to get started, even in those bee's that swarm. > If there are any queen breeders on Bee-L do you think that this is >possible? If there is a possibility to breed bee's to be good, groomers >how much of this trait can be strengthened to the point that it is 100% >affective? I think what the News report ment by "Apistan is the only thing Available to fight against vorroa", is that it is the only legal and proven means to fight vorroa. Essential oils is just an experimental solution right now more reseach and work needs to be carried out before we can say that it really works. Breeding bees for toloerance of vorroa mites is the best long term solution. Hygenic behavior, grooming behavior, mite infertility, shorter development time are all possible solutions to breeding bees tolerant to vorroa mites. It is probbalbly a combination of these traits and others we don't know about yet, that will give us the type of bees we want. All of these traits can be bred for. The use of Instramental Inseminations (II) is essential to control the matings of the queens. The problem is that it is very expensive to run a breeding program using II. But the results are far faster and superior than using Natrually Mated queens. Most Queen breeders in the U.S. don't us II in their programs regularly (every generation) if they use it at all. I know of only a couple breeders that their brogram is based on II. This is really sad for the U.S. Beekeeping Industry. Mexico has more queen breeder using II on a much larger scale than the U.S. dose. The are very persice in their colony evaluations and do a very good job at producing quality stock that is Africanized Bee free. We can Breed a Vorroa Tolerant bee if we are willing to put the effort, time and MONEY into a national program that will breed for a Highly productive, gentle, mite tolerant bee. I don't think any one queen breeder is willing to do this alone. Garrett Dodds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:43:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Charlie Bradley Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel Hello from Indiana, Keeping a smoker going can indeed be a frustration. As a small child watching my father work his bees I remember him using old rags. They came from worn out clothing and I am sure that some of it was from jeans. When I started to keep bees I too used rags. Most clothing was made of cotton and it worked well as a fuel. As time went on I experimented with other fuels primarily because much clothing was starting to be combined with man made fibers and they did not burn well. The state bee inspector that was in my area used ground corn cob and it seemed to work well for him. You have to place a plug of cloth on top or the cobs will fall out if the smoker is tipped too far up. I tried corn cobs but did not care for them all that much. I finally settled on burlap and I still prefer it, if it is available. At one time most animal feed was shipped in burlap. Today feed is sold in paper or plastic. Many times you can find burlap at auctions. Some times it is chewed up by rats and mice but that makes no difference for smoker fuel and sometimes it goes for less money because of that reason. The point is, use what you have available. If you are in areas where cotton is grown it sounds like gleaning left over cotton from the field would be an ideal way to get good smoker fuel. The one caution is to make sure the material is natural and not man made. Even with the burlap I wash it before I use it to make sure that any chemical or residue is removed before I use it. Cardboard sounds like a good idea but some cardboard may be treated or coated with plastic. Just make sure the material you use is natural or you could possibly damage the bees. Keep you smoker going. Charlie Charles R. Bradley Marshall County Extension Office 112 W. Jefferson Street Room 304 Plymouth, IN 46563 Phone: 219-935-8545 Fax: 219-935-8612 E-Mail: Charles_Bradley@acn.purdue.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:33:06 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guillermo Jacoby Subject: Bee Sperm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have enjoyed your comments on AHB and maybe the conclusion is not to import bees. Definitelly I have to look into developing traits that are better for the AHB and I'm still evaluating all posibilities. In the meantime what is the story on bee sperm. Anybody has experience importing european bee sperm? How easy or how dificult is to inseminate an AHB Queen with European Drone sperm? Can the importation of sperm carry any diseases with it? Regards, Guillermo -- Guillermo Jacoby AHBeekeeper from Nicaragua ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >1. There is nothing better then used press sack from a bees wax >rendering plant, the more slum gum the better. It burns cool and long >and does not throw a lot of sparks if the smoker is kept stuffed ahead >of the fire. I have tossed chunks of wax and burnt cut up frames and have often wondered if the burning wax might not "scare" the bees into thinking that their own hive was on fire due to the wax fumes. I myself have noticed no difference. Has anyone? God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:53:30 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Smoker Fuel Judy wrote: This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my > smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I > pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? If white pine trees grow nearby, pine needles make a good smoker fuel. Collected from under the trees and stored, they will be dry at the time of use. The smoker can be stuffed loosely with pine needles and then the needles can be smooshed to the side allowing a lighted match to be dropped toward the bottom of the firebox. This should get a fire going under the needles. The bellows can be pumped to make this fuel into a mass of glowing and burning needles. Then another handful or two of pine needles can be stuffed in on top of the burning material. If this works, pumping the bellows will heat the just-added needles and produce a lot of smoke. (If it doesn't, I start again.) I light the smoker first; then I assemble the rest of my equipment to open the hives. If the smoker is still working when I am ready to open a hive, then it will probably stay lit. Common sense says that I should carry matches down to the hives so that I can re-light the smoker, but I usually don't. Tim Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:39:00 -0600 Reply-To: berryfarm@earthlink.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Hassett Subject: Re: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 (SAN FRANSISCO, CA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could someone bring us "newbees" up to date regarding II? Tools, facilities, methodology, programs in progress, seed stock, practicianers, etc. ? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:02:35 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Smoker bellows repair tip. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > i just couldn't stand to get rid of my old smoker. but the bellows > fabric, just a rubberized cloth weave, was peeling and so porous i > couldn't get any 'poof' from it anymore. the new smokers seemed too > shiny. too new. Thanks for the tip. For the less adventurous and handy, new bellows are available (but not advertised) at your bee supply store for reasonable prices. And FWIW, we have had warranty (repeatedly) on the bellows on the recent models of Dadant smokers with defectively designed or built bellows. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:15:39 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Smoker bellows repair tip. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all, My smoker started leaking last year and I used a tip from one of Manley's books - My smoker may be what Manley described in his typically disparaging style as a 'toy for amateurs' but the bellows consists of 2 bits of wood, something like an old bedspring in the middle, surrounded by 'leather-cloth', stapled and then tacked to the wooden edges by round headed tacks. He suggested using a tyre inner tube as a replacement for the leather cloth, and that a motorcycle inner tube (thinner than car) would be best. I went to my local tyre replacers and asked if I could scrounge a punctured tube (I didn't bother trying to explain what I wanted it for and they probably thought that I was a rubber fetishist). As Manley suggested, its probably better to go for a tube made from thin rubber rather than thick, I found a couple of car tubes that didn't seem too thick. Locate the punctures (if any) and slice across the tube at the point of puncture. Next, slit around what was the inside of the donut and lay the tube flat on a table. Use the original bellows material as a template and place it along the middle of the flattish piece of rubber, draw around it with a ball-point pen and cut it out. I did find that using a staple gun was helpful for re-assembly. Best wishes Joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Smoker fuel I like excelsior for easy starting and thick smoke. It's like finely shredded pine or fir and I get it at my local feed store. Used for nesting or packing material. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:16:57 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: apis Organization: Cia. das Abelhas Subject: Re: AHB success!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob St. John wrote: > > >I've met a few people from the Transvaal (South Africa) who work on a > >day to day basis with these bees (A.m.scutellata - the fearsome > >Killer bee of the Americas) and do very well from them. > > > No, they are not the same. I have talked to beekeepers from South Africa and > their bees are not the Brazilian "killer bees" > I have worked with a lot of bees all over Ethiopia and while there are some bees > who are easily offended there are many swarms there that are quite tractable. > When we talk ogf the Africanized Honey Bee (AHB bred in Brazil) we are not > taliking about the African Honey Bee. I'd like to explain that the Brazilian AHB is the result of a mixture of three breeds (Italian, German and African) and there may also have been a fourth known as "kingdom bee" which was brought by the "Jesuitas", who were religious men that came to Brazil in the beginning of the Portuguese colonization to catechize the natives (1600's). Therefore, our AHB is different from the pure African bee. JOSE MARIA DIAS BRAZIL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:23:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 (SAN FRANSISCO, CA) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Garrett Dodds wrote: > Brian Hensel Wrote: > > They reported that apistan is the > >only thing available to fight against varroa, which I think is > >inaccurate. They didn't mention anything about essential oil research, > >or the possible breeding varroa resistant bee's. I think that this is > >the real answer. If we can somehow breed bee's to have a grooming > >habit, where they will groom each other, then the varroa won't have a > >chance to get started, even in those bee's that swarm. > I think what the News report ment by "Apistan is the only thing Available > to fight against vorroa", is that it is the only legal and proven means to > fight vorroa. Essential oils is just an experimental solution right now > more reseach and work needs to be carried out before we can say that it > really works. > Garrett Dodds I know this has been spoken of before on the list, but there is another treatment for Varroa as well as Tracheal mites here in Canada. And that is Formic acid. I was just wondering how things are going elsewhere as far as having this valuable treatment legalized. While breeding is probably the best defence, we need some effective treatments in the meantime...:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:48:27 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wilson Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 In-Reply-To: <9611011404.AA21453@us3rmc.pa.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I mentioned the discussion of smoker fuel on BEE-L to an older beekeeper friend; I was excited about the pellet stove fuel. He smiled and reminded me that his choice of fuel was free, lit easily and burned slowly and surely. And all he had to do was pick up a dried cow chip from the pasture. He reminded me that this was following in the rich tradition of the native peoples who used the grazing buffalos' dried dung for fuel. regards Peter Wilson email: pjwilson@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:59:26 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Quarantine in Australia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was astounded on reading this posting. To me it read like something from a science fiction novel. On reflection it defines our society today. Its so difficult to trust what we used to see as mundane. Perhaps insects will pervail as predicted. Doug Henry, Lockport Manitoba On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Trevor Weatherhead wrote: > In a recent Bee-L, Chris Allen mentioned that we in Australia have a very > strict quarantine system in place. To show you how serious we are in keeping > out unwanted pest such as varroa, tracheal mites, Tropilaelaps and Africanised > bees, I thought I would give Bee-Liners a brief outline of our requirements. > > Firstly, before a queen bee can be imported to Australia, the hive from which > it is coming must have miticide strips placed in that hive for 56 days. There > is the usual documentation to be filled out in the country from which it is > coming. > > The queen bee must be mailed to our Quarantine Authorities here in Australia. > When it arrives, the queen bee is taken out, examined visually for mites and > placed in a new queen mailing cage with fresh escorts. The escorts, which > accompanied the queen bee to Australia, are examined externally and internally > for any mites and other diseases and viruses. > > The queen bee is held in the new mailing cage for 14 days. After this time > the escorts are examined, externally and internally, for mites. If they are > free, then the queen bee is introduced into a nucleus colony in a flight cage. > This nucleus colony also has miticide strips placed in it. This way, there > is no access to outside bees. > > Once the queen is successfully introduced, there is a wait till there is > hatching brood available so that a DNA test can be carried out for Africanised > genes. If this is satisfactory, then the importer is allowed to graft larvae > from the nucleus colony. This is then taken away from the quarantine station > and rasied in the importers hives outside the station. > > When the importer has completed the grafting, the nucleus colony is destroyed > by burning. The queen bee is never released into the Australian environment. > Only the grafted larvae are allowed to leave the station. > > So you can see that we are serious about our quarantine and do not wish to > have people breaching that quarantine. If people try to illegally bring in > queen bees, we have dogs at the airports and mail centres that are trained to > detect bees, along with other items such as plants and meat. > > I have given a brief outline of our procedue for importing stock to Australia > that I hope will be of interest to other beekeepers. If anyone wants to have > the official documentation, I will be able to send them to you. > > > > Trevor Weatherhead > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:56:04 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bobby R Fanning Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel Comments: To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Tim wrote > If white pine trees grow nearby, pine needles make a good smoker > fuel. Collected from under the trees and stored, they will be dry at the > time of use. > The smoker can be stuffed loosely with pine needles and then the > needles can be smooshed to the side allowing a lighted match to be dropped > toward the bottom of the firebox. This should get a fire going under the > needles. The bellows can be pumped to make this fuel into a mass of glowing > and burning needles. > Then another handful or two of pine needles can be stuffed in on top > of the burning material. If this works, pumping the bellows will heat the > just-added needles and produce a lot of smoke. (If it doesn't, I start > again.) > I light the smoker first; then I assemble the rest of my equipment to > open the hives. If the smoker is still working when I am ready to open a > hive, then it will probably stay lit. Common sense says that I should carry > matches down to the hives so that I can re-light the smoker, but I usually > don't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I too use pine needles with great success and use roughly the same technique as Tim except as follows: I find it works even better, if you have access to corn cobs. Break the cobs into inch and a half or so pieces and mix them with the pine needles. The cobs serve as a "long burning" fuel source which helps keep the smoker from extinguishing if the fuel runs low. Also, when your day is complete and your smoker is still burning, take an appropriate size cob and insert it snuggle in the spout of the smoker so as to smother the fire. The next time you light the smoker, remove the cob, take out the charred fuel (not the ashes, dump them) and use it to start the new fire. I find the charred pine straw is easier to light. Somewhat analogous to charcoal and coal. You are also dumping cool ashes into the leaves and or dry grass eliminating the possibility of a ground fire. To light, use loosely crumpled news paper (or five or six sheets of the tissue you discarded last Winter from between the sheets of foundation when preparing new frames for Spring), start them burning, drop in into the smoker and push it to the bottom with your hive tool (don't pack it), puff lightly. Push the charred pine straw into the smoker such that the charred fuel is in the flame from the paper but not in contact with the paper it's self, continue to puff lightly. Let this get burning good (while puffing lightly), push it down (still not packed) and insert loosely rolled un-burned pine straw (with three or four pieces of cob) keep puffing until you think the paper has burned completely Now you have a hot, will lit smoker. You can now insert more fuel and pack it as you wish and it will most likely stay lit unless you totally quit puffing the bellows. To prepare pine straw fuel, take a hand full, hold with one hand and roll it into a rough cylindrical shape about the ID of the smoker and insert it. This minimizes the amount of pine straw hanging over the sides that tend to "spring" the lid causing smoke to come out the wrong place and prevent the top from fitting tightly. Long winded description, but it does seem to work. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL k4vb@hiwaay.net ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:57:10 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:09:00 GMT Andy Nachbaur writes: >>This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my >>smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I >>pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? I got one for ya... A friend cheats. He fills his smoker with one inch blocks of wood. (Dunno what kind...) He then whips out his trusty propane torch and fires the thing up for a minute or two! And he only uses one match! After that thing is lit, it lasts him all day! (He has a metal bucket he leaves it in (still lit)while travelling to the next beeyard!) Sorta makes my boyscout genes turn right over. :-) Have a goodun! Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 08:43:26 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: AHB success!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A few days back someone mentioned the size and coloring of the bees in regards to the AHB. I am sorry for my ignorance on this subject, but was hoping that being in Oregon I wouldn't have to worry it for a while. I have one new colony that was a swarm that moved into an empty hive this past summer. The bees are smaller than "normal", black bodies with thin yellow stripes, and the queen is also mostly (entirely?) black and barely larger in size than the workers themselves. They are currently the holders of my "nasty hive" award (I requeened my other nasty hives). This hive is much more aggressive, attacking me incessantly when I disturb the hive. What to AHB's look like like and how can one tell if they have them? As a side note: Since all of my other hives have similar bees, I never noticed how much intermingling of the bees from different hives goes on. I have found these black bees intermingled in the other hives as well as the regular bees from the other hives now living and working in this new hive. As far as I can tell, the brood from this hive is of the same strain and the regular bees have moved in from the other hives, as have some of these workers moved into those hives. I have 7 hives as of this summer, all within 2-3 feet next to each other. At 03:16 AM 11/2/96 +0000, you wrote: >Bob St. John wrote: >> >> >I've met a few people from the Transvaal (South Africa) who work on a >> >day to day basis with these bees (A.m.scutellata - the fearsome >> >Killer bee of the Americas) and do very well from them. >> > >> No, they are not the same. I have talked to beekeepers from South Africa and >> their bees are not the Brazilian "killer bees" >> I have worked with a lot of bees all over Ethiopia and while there are some bees >> who are easily offended there are many swarms there that are quite tractable. >> When we talk ogf the Africanized Honey Bee (AHB bred in Brazil) we are not >> taliking about the African Honey Bee. > >I'd like to explain that the Brazilian AHB is the result of a mixture of >three breeds (Italian, German and African) and there may also have been a >fourth known as "kingdom bee" which was brought by the "Jesuitas", who were >religious men that came to Brazil in the beginning of the Portuguese >colonization to catechize the natives (1600's). > >Therefore, our AHB is different from the pure African bee. > >JOSE MARIA DIAS >BRAZIL > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 13:08:24 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:48 PM 11/1/96 -0700, you wrote: >He smiled and reminded me that his choice of fuel was free, lit easily and >burned slowly and surely. And all he had to do was pick up a dried cow >chip from the pasture. I suppose at lunch he cooked up chappattis on the upended smoker base Peter Bray, Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@netaccess.co.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 14:54:23 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "R. C. van Ouwerkerk" Organization: Planet Internet Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Wilson wrote: > He smiled and reminded me that his choice of fuel was free, lit easily and > burned slowly and surely. And all he had to do was pick up a dried cow > chip from the pasture. Good for him. Many amateur beekeepers are citydwellers. The only thing I can pick up in Amsterdam is dog shit. Even decent horses don't exist here anymore. -- Richard C.van Ouwerkerk, arts richardc@pi.net anesthesioloog tel/fax +31 20 6953246 Geerdinkhof 529 PE1KFM 1103 RH AMSTERDAM ZUIDOOST The Netherlands Yea, from the table of my memory I'll wipe away all trivial fond records. Hamlet (Act I, Sc. 5, Line 98) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 07:06:56 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > (He has a metal bucket he leaves it in (still lit)while travelling > to the next beeyard!) We have discovered surplus steel ammo boxes that hold two smokers nicely on their sides. Depending on the fuel quality, the smokers stay lit fairly well in transit. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 06:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD E BONNEY Subject: Re: IBUPROFEN In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Regarding Ibuprofen and stings I have a reference which originally came from The Speedy Bee in 1993. The original source cited was a book "Understanding Prescription Drugs" by Dorothy L. Smith, pp 270-271, and a further reference was the British Medical Journal 292:378, 1986. Richard Bonney Entomology Dept Fernald Hall, UMass Amherst MA 01003-2410 545-1257 rebon@ent.umass.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:25:00 -0600 Reply-To: berryfarm@earthlink.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Hassett Subject: BEE LOGS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am new to beekeeping and to the internet. In addition, I am rather isolated from information about beekeeping. Working second shift makes it imposible to attend meetings and I haven't found any other beekeepers close by that I can share my interest in bees. Viewing recent postings has helped me attend to immediate concerns. As the snow gets deeper and the temperature gets colder I will dig in to the archives to great detail. Please keep up the archives for us isolated "newbees". BTW, we also have a PYO strawberry farm. This past spring we conducted our first "Blossum Tour" for a local 3rd grade class. One of our "discovery" stations focused on beekeeping. I was very happily surprised and incouraged by the kids' (and parents') interest and questions. We plan to offer our "K-3 Program" to more schools in the spring of '97. So PLEASE, keep the archive going so I can keep on the straight and narrow with people. I would like to hear suggestions from other beekeepers on what to "show and tell" during my 20 minute spiel. Thanks for the time and space. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 07:52:51 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Re: AHB success!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rick Grossman wrote: >. . . The bees are smaller than "normal", black bodies with thin yellow >stripes, and the queen is also mostly (entirely?) black and barely larger in >size than the workers themselves. . . This hive is much more aggressive, >attacking me incessantly when I disturb the hive. What to AHB's look like >like and how can one tell if they have them? Rick, You might have some black "German" bees there. They were widespread in the U.S. before the gentler Italian bee was introduced. The black bee is very defensive, and the bees usually "run" off the comb (including open brood comb) when smoked. Nasty bees. Africanized bees are not as dark as you described. Locate the queen in black bee colonies can be challenging because they tend to run off the brood. I worked with these bees in the Fiji Islands for several years. To requeen, it is sometimes necessary to move the colony a few feet to lose a lot of field bees (put weak colony in old location), or use excluders to prevent the queen from running ahead of you. She'll often be found on the bottom board or trying to get through an excluder. Good luck. John in Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:59:10 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bobby R Fanning wrote: > Also, when your day is complete and your smoker is still burning, take an > appropriate size cob and insert it snuggle in the spout of the smoker so as > to smother the fire. Taking just a plain piece of paper and placing it on top of the smoker fuel chamber and closing the spout/lid over it works well at putting out the fire and saving your fuel for next time also. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:22:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel and smokers 101 >Good for him. Many amateur beekeepers are citydwellers. The only thing I can >pick up in Amsterdam is dog du du. Even decent horses don't exist here anymore. >Richard C.van Ouwerkerk, arts richardc@pi.net >1103 RH AMSTERDAM ZUIDOOST The Netherlands Well that is what bee friends are all about and do I have a deal for you. If you will buy 100 drums of my own good honey, (produced in China) I will include at no additional cost per pound one drum of dried Texas Cow Dung or for 25% discount I will throw in a 50/50 mixture of Texas Cow Dung and new crop Mad Cow Dung just received with a load of Big Mack hamburger from England. Anyone can see that I am only being silly, but one of my best beekeeping friends who has passed along once told me his story of his wonderful experiences exporting honey to Holland that was so good that he made several trips to visit with the Dutch honey importer-exporter in Holland and they became long time friends. John and his new friend developed a fast friendship and bound based on trust because of each other experience doing business with each other over the years and John was just one of those quit reserved men that you find puffing on a pipe or one of Cuba's best sitting next to king's and presidents as advisors. So into the new personal friendship the honey packer exporter confessed how he was in the old days during WW II also a smuggler. John also did his own share of law bending as was necessary to produce large crops in the US and Mexico so that sometimes his bees were not in the state or area that they were allowed to move in and out of at the time and he always seemed to be where the honey flow was best. One night after much good food and no small amount of drink the old Dutchman made John a deal that he could not turn down. From that time on with each load of honey he shipped to Holland he included a drum of nice washed graded river rocks for the same price per pound as the honey. It seems as told to me by John that in this area of Holland reclaimed from the sea there were no rocks, and the authorities did not want any because then enjoyed the fact that no rocks, no broken windows and they were prohibited from importing rocks as rocks, and who would look in a honey drum for hot rocks anyway. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Print (P)age (D)ocument (S)omething actually worth readin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:03:31 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: BEE LOGS Comments: To: Aaron Morris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Please keep up the archives for us isolated "newbees". Due to underwhelming demand (I've had only two such requests), I am going to try to get the logs and send them to Adam for web archiving. I got the new hot *free* MS web development software (all 15 or so megs) ready to unzip, so maybe I'll fix my pages too. However, for some reason when I request logs, I usually get no answer, then occasionally I get several of the ones I request. Aaron, any ideas?? Anyhow I'll be away from Sunday until Thursday -- at the ABA annual party (AKA Annual Genereal Meeting and Convention) and will work on this on my returmn. Promise... (i am now off to get a new keyboard -- this one is toast -- sorry about the poor typing lately). Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:12:39 -0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin & Ann Christensen Subject: Re: smoker fuel 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I remember reading (about 30 years ago) that if one was to put a bit of ammonium > nitrate (now, it has been a .ong tiome and the chemists out there will be able > to tell us if I came up with the correct compound) in your smoker it would > produce laughing gas and put the bees to sleep. When they woke up their memoties > would be blank (well somewhat blank) and one could move the hive a few feet or > yards and they would orient themselves to the new location and never remember > where the hive had been before. I have seen chemical fertilizer used in a smoker to put bees asleep while making up baby nucs. It does work. Just a couple teaspoons in a lit smoker and the white smoke will put a 3 lb package to sleep for about a couple of minutes. Personally, I would not recommend this; not just for the bees health, but your own health. I also know a beekeeper who claims that a hive put to sleep this way, can be moved within a yard without the bees drifting back to their original location. Even if it works, you won't see me trying it. Kevin Christensen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:13:14 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects In-Reply-To: <199610312111.QAA10876@segwun.muskoka.net> from "David Eyre" at Oct 31, 96 05:02:09 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: I'm sure Andy will or has filled us all in on liquid smoke. I got that tip from Pat Heitkam, a California Queen Breeder. Our research nucs are well-established, 1-2 #, 2 story mini-hives (composed of 4 or 5 standard frames cut in half). One nuc is the equivalent of 1/2 of a standard deep body. We often stock-pile nucs, using standard hive bodies divided into 4 corners (4 nucs per box). Nothing magical about using water. We simply carry spray bottles (the plastic type for misting plants, or simply wash out an old Windex or other cleaner bottle - just be sure to get rid of all of the previous chemicals). Pop the lid and gently mist the bees on the top bar. They will usually go down onto the frames. You can even lightly mist the frames if the bees get too upset. Seems like a bit of water works something like smoke, they don't fight it, just try to get away from it. Some folks spray package bees with sugar solution when they hive the bees. I don't like the mess and our research tests have shown that sugar mists can kill bees (probably just sticks them up too much). Water spray is not the approach to take on feisty hives or nasty days, but on a mild tempered nuc on a nice day, works great. Pat's liquid smoke, same idea, just add a bit of liquid smoke (buy it from a restaurant supply) mixed with water. The dilution may take a couple of trys, we found the smokes vary a bit in intensity. Cheers Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:20:37 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: BEE LOGS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > (i am now off to get a new keyboard -- this one is toast -- sorry > about the poor typing lately). That's mi problm - i nead a nu keebord two i ges! :>) -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:41:18 -0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin & Ann Christensen Subject: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering if the members of Bee-L could help me settle a debate I'm having with my father. He was trying to tell me that years ago he would get lion dung at the zoo. He claims he would spread it around his bee yards to keep the bears away. Is my dad trying to test my gullibility or has anyone else heard of this? Any Zoologists out there ? Kevin Christensen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:27:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: ESSENTIAL OILS, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___ / \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ / \___/ l l l l \___/ \ \___/ l l___/___\___l l The OLd Drone say's! \___/ / \ ///|\/\///\ l l / \ \___/ ///|||/|\\\/|\\ l l The Illustrated Encyclopedia of \___/ / \ ///||\/|/\\|\\\\\ / \ \___/ l l /|//\\/\\/|/|\\\\ l l ESSENTIAL OILS ** \___/ / \ //\|/// | \\/\\\ / \ \___/ /| |\ l l By Julia Lawless \___/ / \ | (O) (O) | USA $18.95 ISBN 1-85261-721-8/ \ \___/ || l l || l l pb 256 fully Illustrated \___/ / \ | / \ | reference and coffee table / \ \___/ l l | ((_)) | book that should please any \___/ / \ | | Beekeeper who is looking to / \ \___/ l l | ------- | l l ___ use ___ these__ oils!__ \___/ / \___ l l | | l l / \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \ \___/ \___ '-------' ___ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ This book on Essential Oils gives the background on these natural herbal products that have been in general use by peoples of all nations since the LORD transmitted to Moses the formulas for making the Holly Oils. It is not a bee book but will impart to beekeepers the background knowledge on the what, and why of each of the essential oils with pictures of the plants and flowers the oils are made from and what the oils themselves look like and and CAUTIONS we should know about the use of them. Background on how they are made, the exact botanical origins, home and commercial uses, folk tradition and more from A to Z on over 160 oils. The book was published in 1995 by ELEMENT BOOK in the USA, Great Britain and Australia in HardBack or PaperBack and you can order it from your local book seller or via e-mail from me at: andy.nachbaur@beenet.com The price of the paperback edition which is a excellent quality book is $18.95 US plus about $3.00 postage in the US. Write for quotes on the hardback and postage to other places if you can't find the book locally. We appreciate your business and accept Master and Visa Credit cards. For Beekeepers that order this book from me I will also send 10 printed pages of the internet posts on the "Preliminary Results of Research Varroa Mite Control" with these oils all of which detail how to use Wintergreen and other oils to control mites for $23.00 US postage paid in the US which includes the cost of reproducing this added information all of you should have or can get from the internet or this newsgroup or list mailer. ttul Andy- 11296 --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa2.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 01:50:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Re: queen marking In-Reply-To: <<199610212030.QAA18370@smtp1.erols.com> > Quick question-- > > All the queens I've bought this year, from highly reputable sources, are > marked blue. Does that mean they're '95 queens? I'm surprised/confused! I got a couple queens this year as well, from different (reputable) breeders. The Buckfast was marked blue and the Italian was red. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:32:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: just water JJB>Water spray is not the approach to take on feisty hives or nasty days, but >on a mild tempered nuc on a nice day, works great. Hi All, A follow up on my own information on water treatments to bees includes information both on calming aggressive and installing packages in eastern Mexico. In Mexico the largest commercial beekeeper in the world at the time used many thousands of package bees to make up his hives and nucs. He told me and others and had pictures of how he submerged the bees in cool well water before installing them. Today commercial beekeeper who truck 450-500 hives long distances have planned water stops and wet down the load one or more times on a cross country trip depending on the weather. Here in California before starting to load out a semi truck for shipment some beekeepers use commercial orchard sprayers to cool down the hives prior to loading, it seems to work well and saves a lot of hitchhikers and the stinging some beekeepers report when loading out big bee yards. They also use abundant smoke when loading to keep the bees in as they are moved from the ground to the truck bed. Jim Smith, Yuma Arizona, a long time commercial beekeeper and frequent explorer south of our boarder who speaks enough Spanish to get around is the first one who told me about using water to calm aggressive bees. He was with the first official US group of beekeepers and bee scientists to investigate the "killer bees" in Brazil and astonished all with his water sports in some bee yards that may have been let us say, prepared to be extra aggressive for the groups benefit. My long time friend John Allred, from Madera California, who just this year passed on to the special place all old beekeepers must go, was also on that committee and trip and verified this for me. Jim told me he learned the trick from some old Mexican beekeepers from Northern Mexico whom prided themselves on the aggressive temperament of their bees that kept man and animal away, and before anyone spoke Afrikaner in the America's. Jim told me he used it himself in the arid desert beekeeping around Yuma with especially aggressive hives, and he must have had a few as he used much UC Davis stock and also was in on the super pollinating bee from the USDA that threw some daughters that would eat the paint off a new bee truck and sting most peoples pocket shut for just taking the lid off one of their hives...using a smoker. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any personal use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... A comely olde man as busie as a bee. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 01:43:16 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This may not be so far fetched. Here in Oregon, we get cougar and other mountain lion urine from the state dept. of fish and wildlife to help keep the deer away from our fruit trees and berry bushes. It seems to work, but gets washed away quickly in the "constant" rains here. At 11:41 AM 11/2/96 +0000, you wrote: >I was wondering if the members of Bee-L could help me settle a debate I'm >having with my father. He was trying to tell me that years ago he would >get lion dung at the zoo. He claims he would spread it around his bee >yards to keep the bears away. > >Is my dad trying to test my gullibility or has anyone else heard of this? >Any Zoologists out there ? > >Kevin Christensen > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:18:44 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: ESSENTIAL OILS, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF In-Reply-To: <9611021230381283@beenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Andy Nachbaur wrote: > ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ > ___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___ > / \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \ > \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ > / \___/ l l l l \___/ \ > \ This book on Essential Oils gives the background on these natural > herbal products that have been in general use by peoples of all > nations since the LORD transmitted to Moses the formulas for making > the Holly Oils. > > It is not a bee book but will impart to beekeepers the background > knowledge on the what, and why of each of the essential oils with > pictures of the plants and flowers the oils are made from and what > the oils themselves look like and and CAUTIONS we should know > about the use of them. Background on how they are made, the exact > botanical origins, home and commercial uses, folk tradition and more > from A to Z on over 160 oils. > > The book was published in 1995 by ELEMENT BOOK in the USA, Great > Britain and Australia in HardBack or PaperBack and you can order it > from your local book seller or via e-mail from me at: > > andy.nachbaur@beenet.com > > The price of the paperback edition which is a excellent quality book > is $18.95 US plus about $3.00 postage in the US. Write for quotes on > the hardback and postage to other places if you can't find the book > locally. We appreciate your business and accept Master and Visa > Credit cards. For Beekeepers that order this book from me I will also > send 10 printed pages of the internet posts on the "Preliminary > Results of Research Varroa Mite Control" with these oils all of > which detail how to use Wintergreen and other oils to control mites > for $23.00 US postage paid in the US which includes the cost of > reproducing this added information all of you should have or can get > from the internet or this newsgroup or list mailer. > > Hi Andy , Thanks for the post , it sounds like we can learn from this book. We never know where we will pick up some idea and where it will lead. I'm trying some pepermint oil.It is more volatile than wintergreen and will not last as long.The more information I have the better. The mite may be in trouble when we can hit it with more than one compound. We need safe and saine ways to control the mite.A note about these oils, if used without research info you can kill your bees. Too much of a good thing can be bad. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ron Harriger Subject: smoker fuel 101 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There are two items that have not been mentioned for use as smoker fuel. A friend of mine goes out in the woods and collects shelf fungus. He usually does this in the fall or early winter and then lets it cure for a couple of months. He then cuts thin strips of it on his band saw and uses it the following spring. He says it works great because it last for a long time. The other is road apples. I don't use them much anymore because they are hard to find. They have gone the way of other species of apples, you know the old fashion kind, like sheep nose. It may because of the pollution along the highways from cars and trucks running at break- neck speeds. They were a perfect fit too. Two or three on top of your starter and you were set for some time and they were about the size of the burning chamber. Road apples really had a lot going for them. Once dried they could be placed in you pocket and stay in that familiar shape and are easy to grab when the smoker is about to go out. The aroma left on the gloves or hands (for you bare handed folks) would last long after you have gone home for the day. I could put them out to dry and no one would bother them because they knew how important they were to keeping bees. They work best if dried over a long period of time but if you are in a pinch put them on a tin roof when the sun is bearing down and in a couple of days they would be about right. I don't think you could do a finer job by using your wife's favorite dehydrator. I have never tried to do this for fear of other than a perfect end results. If you ever find road apples give them a try. Ron Harriger 100 Rhoades St. Cambridge Springs Pa. 16403 U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 03:51:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Bee Import Dangers Not too long ago Jerry Fries posted: JF>In America we already have every critter in existnce. Protecting ourselves >from mites is like closing the barn door after the horse is out. We should >close our borders to protect the rest of the world from us. This former is >an attempt at humor but does have a point. The OLd Drone has been quit a few days but has some editorial opinion to share based on personal observations he and others have made. ___ ____ ___ _ _ ___ ___ _ _ / _ \| _ \_ _| \ | |_ _/ _ \| \ | | Not to bee confused with BS | | | | |_) | || \| || | | | | \| | or the Law from High... | |_| | __/| || |\ || | |_| | |\ | \___/|_| |___|_| \_|___\___/|_| \_| Contrary comments invited! Well, not sure we have all of them critter's yet, or at least we have not found them all in our hives. Give it time... When one puts the detection of the ex officio importation of bees in prospective with the real problems regulators in the US and much of the world have with the detection of illegal drugs and persons illegally crossing the boarders every single day and night it is easy to believe that a 'Crossed Eyed Red Queen Bee from Timbuktu carried in a plastic cage with food and a dozen worker bees would be almost impossible to detect at the most sophisticated fully armed boarder inspection station. Each of us must recognize that these things do happen and try to weigh the risk to at least we who are beekeepers, if nobody else, of something we have no real control over and the cost and/or the benefit to all or the lack of benefit by denying that honeybees one way or another do make it into our countries and what we may be giving up by not making it possible to satisfy the natural curiosity and interest of many beekeepers to bring the same or better stock into any country by having more liberal bee quarantine laws that would or could regulate that flow in a matter that could protect all interests. More restrictive laws or more enforcement IMHO is not and has not been the answer and will only serve to polarize beekeepers against beekeepers and paint us all with the same public brush as outlaws. And for a fact it is well know to all who are into the AI or artificial breeding of bees that the male bee genetic material can be shipped via mail from anyplace in the world with a very low probability of detection by regulatory authorities in a regular or coin size envelope the vile or vile's protected by a thin piece of plastic foam or cardboard. Is it the normal everyday experience, NO, not in the US, but it has been done more then once with as far as I have ever heard no detection. Mated queen bees can also be shipped that way with O loss. It is a violation of the United States Law to do so. The majority of beekeepers in the US do know the laws if they do any traveling at all, but here in California we have at times had one or two that did not and by chance have been caught and had their exotic bee imports destroyed after they were well established in their hives. But this is the exception and for the most part the bee importation laws work as well as they do not because of the bee police but because those in the bee industry who could benefit the most do know the risks, and maybe more important the fact there has not been a real measurable economic difference in the bee stocks of the world. The MEAT in the BeeBurger is/has been, and may always be in the quality and quantity of the bee pasture and not the breeding stock. If there was such a difference in bees there for sure would not be a boarder wall big or high enough or a government powerful enough to keep beekeepers from capitalizing on it as we truly are as a group very responsible but also very resourceful at dealing with the small beekeeping problems presented us each day. This is not to say that there is not good bee stocks that many in the US would like to have a close up and personal hands on look at, but because there are, and some right this day that beekeepers want very badly to work with, so I have heard and been told. It is very apparent that if something is not done to have more regulated introductions of new stock that interest beekeepers that in time they will quit asking...and act on their own. What about political boarders and bee barriers? As one who has loved and lived on the Mexican boarder I want to add that all the laws man wants to make is not, will not, and did not keep my own honey bees or others from flying into Mexico to collect large amounts of nectar and pollen from plants growing many miles into that sovereign territory and that highway in the sky is a two way street and in fact the natural flow in some boarder areas for water and bees is from Mexico into the United States and both do make that trip with NO aid from beekeeper or interference from heavily armed boarder guards. I assume it is the same on our northern boarder I hope without the show of arms we are daily exposed to on the southern boarder. Funny things do happen to beekeepers in far off lands. I know of one world class bee breeder from the US whom I will not name but is well know and, I am sure there have been more, who was visiting officially another bee breeder in northern Europe looking for different stock to test legally in the US. He selected some material that looked promising and made all local official arrangements for shipment on receipt by that foreign government of the reams of US quarantine documents that are required by the US so he could legally import this stock into the US for advanced study. Within a few days after a few aside trips he returned home to the US to find his dream bees had arrived via air mail before he had a chance to fill out the documents with NO clearance problems at all. (Something was lost in the translation between beekeepers). At the same time I have in the past talked with two different one time quarantine station employees from different countries, that told me of their experiences with legally imported queen bees in their countries that were deliberately allowed to die because of bee disease phobia and the politics of upper management, this was BM or "Before Mites" or any other well hyped problems were detected in US bees. Others have said it before but it must be repeated and that is because we beekeepers in the US still have some faith, (so I have heard), in our countries legal systems down to our hard working local bee regulators, this is not the same in all other countries and often the one's that make the biggest case for their own system are the one's that are circumvented the most by the experienced citizens of their own country. The guys with the biggest ads in the Sunday papers don't always have the best quality products. I also know from personal experiences of the past that almost every northern European beekeeper and those from other places that I have had the pleasure to meet with in the US has offered to send me the world's best queen bees ex officio and I am sure I am not the only one that is singled out for this favor between beekeepers. I was tempted but never succumbed and I was proud of that then but have softened somewhat since and today support a increased flow of regulated bee genetic material and bees not because I know of a super bee but just because it makes sense to have renewed breeding material to chose from. Some of the offers I received in the past I am sure were politically motivated as they all seemed to take great pleasure in anything they could do to thwart their own hard line governments attitudes on just about everything and always were sent home well supplied with blue genes and PlowBoy magazines, (or maybe it was PlayBoy), in violation of their own laws and assisted by this and other US citizen as we have no laws here preventing such activity for items we find so common. Changes are coming....sooner or later! Because of the changing US laws which allow for our NAFTA partners a increasing free flow of truck movement into our country to our markets and us a shot at theirs there is good chance in time for a free movement of honeybees from both Mexico and Canada for the use in commerce, pollination and/or honey production. But as long as all partners are satisfied with the present rule making procedures there will be no effort to effect change...Unless maybe those who depend on honeybees to pollinate their crops see a need before we beekeepers do. The next move on package bees and queens produced in the US for export to Canada is up to the Canadians and because of the time between the closing of the boarders and when they are likely to open again, if ever, they may find the producers will not be able to supply their needs at least at the post WW II prices all enjoyed for generations in the past. What happens in the future to the south will depend on many factors including in Mexico some internal changes in other areas of government that today would preclude the free movement of bees between countries at least the movement south. As far as the risks of the introduction of undiscovered pests, genes, or you name it, nature will in time level that playing field as many in the US have learned after paying a high price for a someday soon to be announced that three not two unsuccessful government quarantines on honeybees and their pests and genetic differences, are no more then real examples of what government quarantines should not be about. By all reports the Canadian beekeepers has without much aid from man received the bad news in their own bee hives and in time will recognize that if it is bad for one we all can expect to pay the price as far as the biological and genetic pests in honeybees go and if some want to blame in all on their beekeeping brothers in the US so bee it, but few beekeepers here in the US blame our problems on Mexico or even on a dedicated Brazilian bee scientist who received advanced education at our own UC Davis or the beekeepers in SA who have for years made regular importations of bee stock from Asia who may easily have had a few hitch hiking vampire mites of one size or another. It is not even all that clear if the varroa mites are from Asian stains or both European and Asia. Is there more bad news to come? I am sure that in time we will have had a look at all that is bad, but I am also as sure that we will overcome the bad news we are receiving this day and will do the same into the future because beekeepers are all a special people and really do have some strange abilities in common that is yet not been identified but may be some broken genes passed on randomly from generation to generation that enables beekeepers to be beekeepers when most other are not and to make good to spite the bad without despoiling our neighbors bed, sometimes called "infectious opportunism". ttul, the OLd Drone BTW. US friends, Just a day ago I tuned into the Ross Peerow political road show and heard his degrading remarks about "not hiring a beekeeper to build a skyscraper", I agreed with all his degrading "facts" on President Clinton a real lame duck winner he is not, but would tell Peerow that he better have a closer look at who his engineers really are as from one beekeeping family I know real personal there are two sons, a daughter and two son in laws that are all professional engineers as well as experienced in the beekeeping life and for sure he has more then once passed under or over one of the highway bridges the daughter designed, operated a computer the son in law designed the INTEL Inside chip for, or run his cheep car on the oil the youngest son tested in the Texas engineering lab he works for and could be using the gasoline the other son in law created in the petrol engineering lab he works in. Makes no never mind to me as I voted for DOLE anyway...OPUS, one son did go bad after earning his engineering degree with high honors, he got the silver cup, 2nd or 3rd in his class for smarts and then chose to be the third generation commercial beekeeper in his family. Amazing all of these kids were deprived and reared without the benefits of television....but all took their turns in the honeyhouse and bee yards and still had time to read a book or two. 11396 (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Two wrongs don't make right, but three rights make a left ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 02:15:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David J Trickett Subject: AFB Resistance to Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Has anyone noticed AFB resistance to Terramycin developing in their yards? I don't know ho long it's been being used to combat foulbroods, but given its blanket use as a preventative measure (I'm not criticizing this) it seems to me that we'd be getting some resistant strains by now. Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 05:04:19 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:13 AM 11/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hi: I'm sure Andy will or has filled us all in on liquid smoke. I got >that tip from Pat Heitkam, a California Queen Breeder. >Pat's liquid smoke, same idea, just add a bit of liquid smoke (buy it from >a restaurant supply) mixed with water. The dilution may take a couple of >trys, we found the smokes vary a bit in intensity. The bottle that I have in hand is Wrights Natural Hickory Seasoning (liquid smoke) 3.5fi.oz Made by Nabisco Foods, Inc. Bought at the grocery store Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 U.S.A. ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 05:04:16 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:09 AM 11/1/96 GMT, you wrote: >>This is my first year in beekeeping and I have yet to master the use of my >>smoker. I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I >>pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure here? > >Judy, I have been doing it so long I can do it in the dark with my eyes >closed and I have the same problem. I believe it has something to do >with the redesign of the smoker some years back to make them fire safe >or something but I have learned some really neat tricks to get nice >bellowing clouds of cool smoke that will last for some time on a fill >up. The problem is that some of the needed ingredients may not be >available to all or in all areas of the bee world. > >1. There is nothing better then used press sack from a bees wax >rendering plant, the more slum gum the better. It burns cool and long >and does not throw a lot of sparks if the smoker is kept stuffed ahead >of the fire. > >2. Burlap, jute, or some cotton sacks can be used and are available >in many farm areas at reasonable, (sometimes) free prices. This material >can be treated with old or new oil, cheep mobil wax, even salt peter I >have been told and it will burn without going out, but sometimes it will >not only drive the bees out but you will find your own head in a cloud >of smoke that would give a coal miner black lung. In rare cases sack >from pesticide treated seed has been used, but I would not use this as >it is a good way to make yourself deathly sick. > >3. If you lived in the sticker bush part of Texas, there is nothing as >good as dried cow dung, 2nd in my experience to old fish net. I am sure >that those who have not the experience are grinning ear to ear knowing >that I am putting you on, but it is true, They work GOOD on your Dutch Oven when you make biscuits for your Honey or just a Stew. Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 U.S.A. ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 09:10:01 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I was wondering if the members of Bee-L could help me settle a debate I'm >having with my father. He was trying to tell me that years ago he would >get lion dung at the zoo. He claims he would spread it around his bee >yards to keep the bears away. > >Is my dad trying to test my gullibility or has anyone else heard of this? >Any Zoologists out there ? > >Kevin Christensen We used to have a neighbor who used Lion Dung from the zoo on her garden.It is hot ! She left it in a pile one year and it began to burn. In Alaska it is not so hat as to cotribute much to this chemical reaction. We did not have any bears though. Did the lion dung help? Beats me! A boy stood on the corner one time snaping his fingers ,when asked what he was doing he said scaring thew elephants away. When he was told that there were no elephants around he said" it works dont it?" Seriuosly It would be hard to test but there is a certain logic to it. Try and keep a fresh supply of lion dung around and see lif there is a difference in bear siteings. Jery Fries ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:50:51 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I was wondering if the members of Bee-L could help me settle a debate I'm >having with my father. He was trying to tell me that years ago he would >get lion dung at the zoo. He claims he would spread it around his bee >yards to keep the bears away. > >Is my dad trying to test my gullibility or has anyone else heard of this? >Any Zoologists out there ? > >Kevin Christensen Kevin, I don't know but I once got tiger dung to spread around the garden to keep the deer away. I think it worked. Then, I think of deer as bold than bear. Word of caution, I didn't leave the tiger droppings in the bed of my truck long at all and it ate the paint away and rusted. Ed ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:37:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: AFB Resistance to Terramycin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Suprisingly there have not been any reports (that I know of; anyone heard of anything different? ) of tetra resistance to AFB. There are a rather alarming number of new resistant strains of organisms reported in publications, news and medical journals. Recently reports of BT resistance have emerged in some control circles. This is very worrying since it has always been thought that biological controls would be immune to mechanisms of resistance. It would not suprise me if a mode of resistance may not be identified for numerous biologically or chemical products derived from biologic sources. Certainly if a chemical is used against a population long enough the chances for resistance increases. This is driving a new paradigm for anyone breeding for resistances or developing chemical pesticides for management of a pest complex. The work at hand is only another step in the walkway, not a silver bullet that will control the pest always. A long acting product is prefered to one than can be projected to have a short useful lifetime. The doctors treating my daughters recurrent ear infection have been reverting to old sulfur based chemicals since most of the newer antibiotics are ineffective because of the emergence of resistant bacterial strains. We spend a lot of time at work trying new antibiotics to clean up fungal strains from bacterial contaminants that were once susceptibe to standard antibiotics. There are many different descriptions for the mechanism of resistance or the processes leading to the advent of resistance. I believe that the harder the pressure placed on a population the quicker surviving rebreeding individuals can and will develop resistance. Perhaps this may be the exact reason that AFB has not shown resistance to tetra. Tetra does not outright kill the organism that causes AFB rather it suppresses the symptoms. AFB is probably still operating at a low level (like a cold virus), even in a tetra treated colony. The disease does not manifest into a colony killing situation because of the treatment but the bacteria can still be found. Tetra suppresses the major symptoms boosting a colony so that it can overcome the devastating effects of AFB. Be careful not to become a tetra junky. As a hobbyist I choose to limit my use of chemicals in my hive ( This is not everyones choice or option and I do not stand on a soapbox decrying that everyone should or can) I therefor utilize a multifaceted approach for disease control and prevention that utilizes sampling, cultural control and the judicious use of chemicals, especially when my options are limited by radical conditions or threat of colony loss. Mike .-~~~-. / } / .-~ \ | } _ __ ___\.~~-.-~| . -~_ / \./ \/\__ { O | ` .-~. ; ~-.__ __{^\_ _}_ ) }/^\ ~--~/-|_\| : : .-~ / /\_/^\._}_/ // / / | \~ - - ~ ( (__{(@)}\__}.//_/__A__/_A___|__A_\___A______A_____A \__/{/(_)\_} )\\ \\---v-----V----v----v-----V-----v--- ( (__)_)_/ )\ \> Mike Griggs mhg3@cornell.edu \__/ \__/\/\/ Entomologist \__,--'HTTP://www.ppru.cornell.edu/biocontrol/griggs.html >Hello All, > >Has anyone noticed AFB resistance to Terramycin developing in their >yards? I don't know ho long it's been being used to combat foulbroods, >but given its blanket use as a preventative measure (I'm not criticizing >this) it seems to me that we'd be getting some resistant strains by now. > >Dave T. .-~~~-. / } / .-~ \ | } _ __ ___\.~~-.-~| . -~_ / \./ \/\__ { O | ` .-~. ; ~-.__ __{^\_ _}_ ) }/^\ ~--~/-|_\| : : .-~ / /\_/^\._}_/ // / / | \~ - - ~ ( (__{(@)}\__}.//_/__A__/_A___|__A_\___A______A_____A \__/{/(_)\_} )\\ \\---v-----V----v----v-----V-----v--- ( (__)_)_/ )\ \> Mike Griggs mhg3@cornell.edu \__/ \__/\/\/ Entomologist \__,--'HTTP://www.ppru.cornell.edu/biocontrol/griggs.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:41:43 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Ice free inner cover/ Alaskan inner cover Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have gotten requests for plans again . I hope im not being redundant but here they are. The object is to provide a cover to the bees that they can controll , will not ice up, and allow the beekeeper to have a variety of ways to work with his/her bees,including feeding.so here it is. Use it year round. 1 Take a standard inner cover with a hole in the top,a slot in the front lip,and a 3/8" lip protruding up from the board.This will make a bee space and airplenum or chamber. It is best made from 3/8" plywood. 2 Place the inner cover flat on a work surface , with the front slot up. Measure the width of the slot. 3 Take a 1/8" plywood scrap cut it 1" wide and 2" to 3" shorter than the inside measure of the width of the the cover. 4 Take your stick which is narrower than the width of the cover and place it in the cover across the width of the hive slightly back from the front slot. Leave a space between the front lip and the stick of 1 1/2" . Center the stick so that a space of 1-1 1/2" remains between each end and each side wall. Secure the stick permaently with glue, screws or some other method. This stick is an air baffle to slow down air leaving the hive. 5 Take a 3/8" piece of plywood and cut to fit on top of the cover. 6 Cut a feeder hole in the plywood so that the hole doe not line up with the hole in the inner cover. The new hole should be located toward the center of the new board. This hole is for placeing a feed can on the hive. 7 Put a sealer on the lip of the inner cover. Put the plywood board on the lip and screw togather tightly. Leave no air leaks around the edges. Put more screws into the area where the air baffle stick is to secure the stick. This will create a little cave for warm air rising from the bees to spread out and warm the bottom part of the inner cover. Be sure that a cover of some kind seals the hole in the top when a feeder can is not being used. 8 Be sure to restrict the bottom opening to a space slightly less than the new opening you have created.Air expands when heated this will create a very slight pressure for the bees. If left unattended by the bees air will move slowly up through the hive out the air chamber split into two airstreams warm the bottom of the inner cover and exit. 9 If you feed the bees , the cluster moves up in the warm air stream in the space under the feeder can hole and can get feed. They controll the air flow by how many bees plug the air exits. 10 In summer it is an upper vent for the bees to keep themselves cool and to dry thier honey. 11 Although it is not nessecary I make a plywood feeder can support that has a bigger hole(one the size of a coffee can lid) It allows more bees to cluster under the can. 12 To move the bees just tape over the vent slot in the front of the inner cover. There you go best luck Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:11:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: For S. Calif: AHB in San DIego COunty In-Reply-To: <199610310503.VAA28867@beach.silcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Attention Southern California beekeepers: A friend saw a blurb on a local San DIego TV station about the AHB in San Diego. Did anyone catch this segment? Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Hobby Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:13:23 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Bee Import Dangers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Not too long ago Jerry Fries posted: > >JF>In America we already have every critter in existnce. Protecting ourselves > >from mites is like closing the barn door after the horse is out. We should > >close our borders to protect the rest of the world from us. This former is > >an attempt at humor but does have a point. > >The OLd Drone has been quit a few days but has some editorial opinion to >share based on personal observations he and others have made. > I was flatered to be quoted by the old drone, In fact the following >editorial by him could not be better expressed. _My humble attempt_ at >humor Is most elequently _stated__here in this text. Jerry Fries_ ___ _ _ ___ ___ _ _ > / _ \| _ \_ _| \ | |_ _/ _ \| \ | | Not to bee confused with BS >| | | | |_) | || \| || | | | | \| | or the Law from High... >| |_| | __/| || |\ || | |_| | |\ | > \___/|_| |___|_| \_|___\___/|_| \_| Contrary comments invited! > >Well, not sure we have all of them critter's yet, or at least we have >not found them all in our hives. Give it time... > >When one puts the detection of the ex officio importation of bees in >prospective with the real problems regulators in the US and much of the >world have with the detection of illegal drugs and persons illegally >crossing the boarders every single day and night it is easy to believe >that a 'Crossed Eyed Red Queen Bee from Timbuktu carried in a plastic >cage with food and a dozen worker bees would be almost impossible to >detect at the most sophisticated fully armed boarder inspection station. >Each of us must recognize that these things do happen and try to weigh >the risk to at least we who are beekeepers, if nobody else, of something >we have no real control over and the cost and/or the benefit to all or >the lack of benefit by denying that honeybees one way or another do make >it into our countries and what we may be giving up by not making it >possible to satisfy the natural curiosity and interest of many >beekeepers to bring the same or better stock into any country by having >more liberal bee quarantine laws that would or could regulate that flow >in a matter that could protect all interests. More restrictive laws or >more enforcement IMHO is not and has not been the answer and will only >serve to polarize beekeepers against beekeepers and paint us all with >the same public brush as outlaws. > >And for a fact it is well know to all who are into the AI or artificial >breeding of bees that the male bee genetic material can be shipped via >mail from anyplace in the world with a very low probability of detection >by regulatory authorities in a regular or coin size envelope the vile or >vile's protected by a thin piece of plastic foam or cardboard. Is it the >normal everyday experience, NO, not in the US, but it has been done more >then once with as far as I have ever heard no detection. Mated queen >bees can also be shipped that way with O loss. It is a violation of the >United States Law to do so. > >The majority of beekeepers in the US do know the laws if they do any >traveling at all, but here in California we have at times had one or two >that did not and by chance have been caught and had their exotic bee >imports destroyed after they were well established in their hives. But >this is the exception and for the most part the bee importation laws >work as well as they do not because of the bee police but because those >in the bee industry who could benefit the most do know the risks, and >maybe more important the fact there has not been a real measurable >economic difference in the bee stocks of the world. The MEAT in the >BeeBurger is/has been, and may always be in the quality and quantity of >the bee pasture and not the breeding stock. If there was such a >difference in bees there for sure would not be a boarder wall big or >high enough or a government powerful enough to keep beekeepers from >capitalizing on it as we truly are as a group very responsible but also >very resourceful at dealing with the small beekeeping problems presented >us each day. This is not to say that there is not good bee stocks that >many in the US would like to have a close up and personal hands on look >at, but because there are, and some right this day that beekeepers want >very badly to work with, so I have heard and been told. It is very >apparent that if something is not done to have more regulated >introductions of new stock that interest beekeepers that in time they >will quit asking...and act on their own. > >What about political boarders and bee barriers? > >As one who has loved and lived on the Mexican boarder I want to add >that all the laws man wants to make is not, will not, and did not keep >my own honey bees or others from flying into Mexico to collect large >amounts of nectar and pollen from plants growing many miles into that >sovereign territory and that highway in the sky is a two way street and >in fact the natural flow in some boarder areas for water and bees is >from Mexico into the United States and both do make that trip with NO >aid from beekeeper or interference from heavily armed boarder guards. I >assume it is the same on our northern boarder I hope without the show >of arms we are daily exposed to on the southern boarder. > >Funny things do happen to beekeepers in far off lands. > >I know of one world class bee breeder from the US whom I will not name >but is well know and, I am sure there have been more, who was visiting >officially another bee breeder in northern Europe looking for different >stock to test legally in the US. He selected some material that looked >promising and made all local official arrangements for shipment on >receipt by that foreign government of the reams of US quarantine >documents that are required by the US so he could legally import this >stock into the US for advanced study. Within a few days after a few >aside trips he returned home to the US to find his dream bees had >arrived via air mail before he had a chance to fill out the documents >with NO clearance problems at all. (Something was lost in the >translation between beekeepers). At the same time I have in the past >talked with two different one time quarantine station employees from >different countries, that told me of their experiences with legally >imported queen bees in their countries that were deliberately allowed to >die because of bee disease phobia and the politics of upper management, >this was BM or "Before Mites" or any other well hyped problems were >detected in US bees. > >Others have said it before but it must be repeated and that is because >we beekeepers in the US still have some faith, (so I have heard), in our >countries legal systems down to our hard working local bee regulators, >this is not the same in all other countries and often the one's that >make the biggest case for their own system are the one's that are >circumvented the most by the experienced citizens of their own country. >The guys with the biggest ads in the Sunday papers don't always have the >best quality products. > >I also know from personal experiences of the past that almost every >northern European beekeeper and those from other places that I have had >the pleasure to meet with in the US has offered to send me the world's >best queen bees ex officio and I am sure I am not the only one that is >singled out for this favor between beekeepers. I was tempted but never >succumbed and I was proud of that then but have softened somewhat since >and today support a increased flow of regulated bee genetic material and >bees not because I know of a super bee but just because it makes sense >to have renewed breeding material to chose from. Some of the offers I >received in the past I am sure were politically motivated as they all >seemed to take great pleasure in anything they could do to thwart their >own hard line governments attitudes on just about everything and always >were sent home well supplied with blue genes and PlowBoy magazines, (or >maybe it was PlayBoy), in violation of their own laws and assisted by >this and other US citizen as we have no laws here preventing such >activity for items we find so common. > >Changes are coming....sooner or later! > >Because of the changing US laws which allow for our NAFTA partners a >increasing free flow of truck movement into our country to our markets >and us a shot at theirs there is good chance in time for a free movement >of honeybees from both Mexico and Canada for the use in commerce, >pollination and/or honey production. But as long as all partners are >satisfied with the present rule making procedures there will be no >effort to effect change...Unless maybe those who depend on honeybees to >pollinate their crops see a need before we beekeepers do. The next move >on package bees and queens produced in the US for export to Canada is >up to the Canadians and because of the time between the closing of the >boarders and when they are likely to open again, if ever, they may find >the producers will not be able to supply their needs at least at the >post WW II prices all enjoyed for generations in the past. What happens >in the future to the south will depend on many factors including in >Mexico some internal changes in other areas of government that today >would preclude the free movement of bees between countries at least the >movement south. As far as the risks of the introduction of undiscovered >pests, genes, or you name it, nature will in time level that playing >field as many in the US have learned after paying a high price for a >someday soon to be announced that three not two unsuccessful government >quarantines on honeybees and their pests and genetic differences, are >no more then real examples of what government quarantines should not be >about. By all reports the Canadian beekeepers has without much aid from >man received the bad news in their own bee hives and in time will >recognize that if it is bad for one we all can expect to pay the price >as far as the biological and genetic pests in honeybees go and if some >want to blame in all on their beekeeping brothers in the US so bee it, >but few beekeepers here in the US blame our problems on Mexico or even >on a dedicated Brazilian bee scientist who received advanced education >at our own UC Davis or the beekeepers in SA who have for years made >regular importations of bee stock from Asia who may easily have had a >few hitch hiking vampire mites of one size or another. It is not even >all that clear if the varroa mites are from Asian stains or both >European and Asia. > >Is there more bad news to come? > >I am sure that in time we will have had a look at all that is bad, but I >am also as sure that we will overcome the bad news we are receiving this >day and will do the same into the future because beekeepers are all a >special people and really do have some strange abilities in common that >is yet not been identified but may be some broken genes passed on >randomly from generation to generation that enables beekeepers to be >beekeepers when most other are not and to make good to spite the bad >without despoiling our neighbors bed, sometimes called "infectious >opportunism". > > ttul, the OLd Drone > >BTW. US friends, Just a day ago I tuned into the Ross Peerow political >road show and heard his degrading remarks about "not hiring a beekeeper >to build a skyscraper", I agreed with all his degrading "facts" on >President Clinton a real lame duck winner he is not, but would tell >Peerow that he better have a closer look at who his engineers really are >as from one beekeeping family I know real personal there are two sons, a >daughter and two son in laws that are all professional engineers as well >as experienced in the beekeeping life and for sure he has more then once >passed under or over one of the highway bridges the daughter designed, >operated a computer the son in law designed the INTEL Inside chip for, >or run his cheep car on the oil the youngest son tested in the Texas >engineering lab he works for and could be using the gasoline the other >son in law created in the petrol engineering lab he works in. Makes no >never mind to me as I voted for DOLE anyway...OPUS, one son did go bad >after earning his engineering degree with high honors, he got the silver >cup, 2nd or 3rd in his class for smarts and then chose to be the third >generation commercial beekeeper in his family. Amazing all of these kids >were deprived and reared without the benefits of television....but all >took their turns in the honeyhouse and bee yards and still had time to >read a book or two. > >11396 >(c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document >in any form, or to print for any use. >(w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. > >--- > ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Two wrongs don't make right, but three rights make a left ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:42:39 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Vlad glad to meet Jerry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi vlad Im sorry it took so long to answer but I dont know what to say I dont wnt to beleger the list with my personal info and I dont kno0w how to send a personal yet. when ever I try my message does not go through. I am 53 , a retired firefighter,a family man excusivly, I have a 12 and a 11 year old still at home. They are both top students, athletes, musitions and respected. I am married 20 years to the finest woman on earth.Ihave been in beekeeping 11 years am active in my continued education. I work as a school bus driver because I love children, I coach sports and volunteer in school classrooms where I teach math,science and a respect for our earth and our fellow man. I hope I am not to unhumble Jerry Fries >--------------------------------------------- >Dr.Obolonkin >International Sakharov >Institute on Radioecology, >Dolgobrodskaya, 23 >220009, Minsk, Belarus > >e-mail: ooo@gray.isir.minsk.by (pers.) > root@gray.isir.minsk.by (ISIR) > tel./fax: (+375 172) 306 888 > tel 307 372 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:02:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: The Next Step??? In-Reply-To: <199611030715.CAA15306@dolphin.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello all.....:) Having enjoyed immensely being a part of this list, I suddenly had an idea. I thought it would be "neat" to converse more directly. And the obvious forum would be a "Talker" or a "MOO". If you dont know what these are, they are virtual "rooms" or "places" where you telnet to, to talk, via the internet, to others. So therefore, my idea is to arrange for a regular time or times and of course the "place", to meet and chat about bees. It would be like a virtual bee meeting...;) I have a possible suggestion for a Talker to congregate at for these meetings. It is a local one to me and I am a Sherrif there, which means I have some authority that regular Users dont. So I think I could facilitate the organizing of these "International Beekeepers Meeting". Well...now for your feedback....:) cheers.. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:33:37 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Dunking Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One of the best commercial beekeepers that I know used press in cages for 1200 colonies when re-queening. He was handling lots of queens in small wooden shipping cages and didn't like having them fly off - so he always carried a bottle of warm water and a clear glass. He'd get the frame out of the hive, position the press in cage, then pop loose the staples on the wooden queen cage and then he'd submerge the queen. Didn't seem to hurt her, she usually slowed down a bit, and couldn't fly with those wet wings. Just a quick, but total submerging of the queen. As for Andy's comments about wetting down loads - yep I agree, I will post some charts later this fall showing how much the colonies cooled down while on road heading for Maryland. We mounted a switch under the dash, used an electric pump to "mist" the colonies. Cooled down fast (temperatures dropped several degrees and stayed down for a surprising time). Bye for now, have 2-3 weeks of work in Maryland, so will not be on the net for awhile. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:57:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: WBC Hives & so forth & so on... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The WBC hive with its fancy lifts and roof is very picturesque, as is the Glen hive , or other similar designs. Serviceable? Well...maybe. Cheap? Nope. Efficient? Certainly not. I did read somewhere that, earlier in this century, there were one or two "commercial" operations in Britain that used WBC's. It must have been a real challenge trucking loads of them to the orchards, or off to the heather-moors! Glyn Davies recently mentioned that some folks (UK) had ended up wishing they had started with the Langstroth. I wondered why. I mean, the Langstroth isn't a whole lot bigger than the B.S. frame. Now, if you go to the Dadant, like Harry Riches or Oliver Field (following after Manley's example), then you have made a real jump. A good queen can lay a nice compact, full pattern on them. All tidy in one box. It would seem that, to many overseas beekeepers, the big advantage of the "standard" USA Langstroth is the interchangeability of the brood and super frames, all through the hive. In other words, that the brood and honey combs are all one uniform size (9 1/4" frames). This is nice and efficient, and it was the way most large American apiaries looked during much of this century. Even here in upstate NY, where buckwheat honey was a major crop up until the 1940's/50's,the usual big apiaries consisted of solely Langstroth 9 5/8" deep chambers. Nowadays, it's a different story. Commonly we find that beekeepers are using 2 Langstroth deeps for brood and wintering, and for the crop, the hives are supered with 6 5/8" (Dadant depth, or "3/4") "medium" honey supers. A few folks super with the deep chambers only, but most consider them too heavy when full, and awkward. Occasionally, too, you'll see 5 11/16" (Langstroth shallow) supers, but it makes more sense to use the medium 6 5/8" depth which holds appreciably more, but is still easy enough to handle when full. So,with the Langstroth, we STILL end up with 18-20 total brood chamber frames. And we still have to do things like mess around with the brood boxes, swapping them in the spring to get the queen laying where we want her. American beekeepers, then (depending where you go) are not uniformly using the standard Langstroth deep throughout the hive, for brood AND surplus. It would be cheaper and easier to just have one frame size, but the crops aren't as huge as they were many years ago, and a full deep is quite a load to carry! I often end up with a few full ones every year (usually newly-drawn foundation combs which are extracted, and put into brood service the next season). A full deep super could hurt you, so a good grip is crucial. I have often wished that the Dadant or Jumbo Langstroth (10 Dadant-depth brood frames) had become the standard here, over the years. They did enjoy some brief popularity in decades past. They have not been offered by US suppliers for many years. The classic argument is that they are too heavy ( -- compared to what, though?) Compared to a double-deep langstroth?? I think not. One person cannot safely lift and carry a double-deep langstroth,the shape is all wrong -- but most folks COULD lift an entire colony in a Dadant/Jumbo; AND not have to staple everything together to do it. About the only big disadvantage to the large brood combs is that the bees tend to chew away the bottom portion. There are ways of preventing or fixing this, tho. (BTW, Cornell University has an apiary, and they still have a few Jumbo's in use; but they just treat them like regular Langstroth brood bodies and double them up.) The Manley extracting frame is to me an ideal design for ... well, extracting honey! Here in the U.S. we are stuck with the factory-style Hoffman frame in both the broods and supers. They are completely identical except for the different depths. This is a problem -- the bottom bars are too narrow and you don't get a nice surface along which to guide the uncapping knife. The narrow bottoms also accumulate a lot of burr/brace comb. For surplus, the super frames must be spaced out by hand, or with metal spacers -- more work. Manley's extracting frames had wide top *and* bottom bars, and self-spacing, straight wide end-bars. Uniform, even combs, easy to uncap, no spacing required. Over all, I 'm convinced Manley had the right idea with the Mod. Dadant hive and special super frame. I think bee management would be considerably simplified if they had become more common here "in the colonies". But U.S. beekeepers (or was it the suppliers) opted for the Langstroth, so here we are, running too-prolific bees on too-small/wrong shaped brood combs. For surplus, we super with shallow frames, which are patterned exactly after the brood frames, and don't function ideally for extracting purposes. ................... TO add to the melee, quite a few western U.S. outfits are switching over to a "western" size frame for BOTH brood and honey chambers. Another size! This one is a 7 5/8" box with 7 1/4" frames. Hey, why not? Actually I think this came about because good wide boards are becoming much too expensive or hard to secure... Oh well. Mix 'em all up. Sometimes you just have to use what you can get,or already have (!) -- and after all, the bees won't complain. Best regards to all, Joel Govostes, Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 20:23:45 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: watering bees in transit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I plan to put a soaker hose over a load of bees (under the net) to water them when they reach warmer temperatures. Question...what would be the best instructions to give an inexperienced driver? I thought it would be a good idea to water them down if he stops briefly during the day and temps were 80 degrees F or hotter. If anyone has some advice, I'm listening. ****************************************************** * Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones (616)882-4456 * * BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones (616)882-7765 * * * * email b-man@aliens.com * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:10:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian R Tucker Subject: Re: Betty Crocker "Save our bees" Just was woondering why don't we all just donate the 32cents we would spend on a stamp instead of spending the money for the cherios and 32cents for them to donate 25cents. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:21:40 -0500 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Organization: HOLLY-B APIARY Subject: Re: Betty Crocker "Save our bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian R Tucker wrote: > > Just was woondering why don't we all just donate the 32cents we would spend > on a stamp instead of spending the money for the cherios and 32cents for them > to donate 25cents. This is one of several reasons I enjoy reading mail from this group.Great sense of humor and wit!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 02:44:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: AFB Resistance to Terramycin MG>Suprisingly there have not been any reports (that I know of; anyone heard >of anything different? ) of tetra resistance to AFB. There are a rather >alarming number of new resistant strains of organisms reported in >publications, news and medical journals. Hi Mike, a real good post... One reason for this good news in bee medication could be that in the US and many other places for the most part beekeepers take out the individual hives that do not respond to treatment and treat them to the fire pit so we are treating mostly healthy hives. Now the story could be different if we only treated 100% diseased hives and did not treat the hives without symptoms. Even then I must say that the loss reported from AFB is really not that much lower today then it was when beekeepers had nothing but fire to treat the disease, about 1/2 of 1% to 2% total loss per year. But I will never forget a story a good beekeeping friend of mine who also was a county bee inspector once told me of one of his own local close beekeeping friends that was never to concerned about his own loss from AFB and how in his job as bee inspector for over 25 years he had burned a number of hives in his friends operation that was in excess of two times his friend every had at any one time. So AFB is something that should not be overlooked in anyone's bees...even today when our attention is on other problems AFB continues to take its tole and must be controlled when detected, I have preference for the fire pit. There may be other things at work with AFB which some have called a disease of the "hive bees" because it is seldom found in the escaped populations. Again this could be because of the good old survival of the fittest rule, but one would think after reading the popular science on the subject that if one hive in the wild went without treatment they all would soon have AFB disease or all would dead in a season or two. Maybe now that so many say the escaped bees are all dead we should take a closer look as this population as it is rebuilt in the future by African bees as others have predicted. MG>There are many different descriptions for the mechanism of resistance or >the processes leading to the advent of resistance. I believe that the >harder the pressure placed on a population the quicker surviving rebreeding >individuals can and will develop resistance. Perhaps this may be the exact >reason that AFB has not shown resistance to tetra. Tetra does not outright >kill the organism that causes AFB rather it suppresses the symptoms. AFB >is probably still operating at a low level (like a cold virus), even in a >tetra treated colony. The disease does not manifest into a colony killing >situation because of the treatment but the bacteria can still be found. The same idea can be used to justify chemical treatments for vampire mites that in themselves may not be the real killer only the vector for other pathogens but by reducing their numbers the bees are able to overcome the real problem. The problem as I see it is the total load of deleterious materials in use by beekeepers and how we know when to stop using them, and do stop. Some beekeepers have told me of their first use of chemically treated strips several years ago and how they would check the bottom board a few days after treatment and found it red with dead mites, and today they seldom find a mite after treatment but will continue to treat from now on...I suspect this is OK for the chemical industry, but also would think that when this same beekeeper again starts to find large numbers of mites he may be using a chemical that no longer is effective for what ever the reason. This is a common problem with others in production agriculture who now are in a continual search for other ways to control pests other then chemicals and use a mix of technologies such as chemical, biological and cultural to only reduce the damage from pests which at one time was a post harvest job at the packing house and remains one even with all the good control in use today. Some still insist that without chemical use it would be worse but slowly others are demonstrating that this is far from the truth...for such crops as almonds that today require a hands on up close eyeball inspection of each and every single nut sorted and/or graded by hand or with space are scanners that only replace labor but are equal in cost. MG>Tetra suppresses the major symptoms boosting a colony so that it can >overcome the devastating effects of AFB. Be careful not to become a tetra >junky. As a hobbyist I choose to limit my use of chemicals in my hive ( This is always a good idea to be careful but I would like to present something that I learned the hard way about EFB which can be more costly in one season then AFB is in a lifetime in some localities and was to me for a season or two. The lesson is that for TM to be effective it must be present at the earliest possible time in the brood rearing cycle. But again if you have never experienced the horrendous loss from this disease there is no reason to use TM or any other treatment. BTW, the symptoms of advanced EFB are no different then PMS or bPMS, or mites, both sizes.. All the bees that seemed healthy at last visit in any one yard or dozens without any overt symptoms dwindle and in a short time become very weak and may in time die. With EFB there is recovery, not 100%, over a long period of time if good bee pasture is available or with the introduction of TM it can be overnight for the advanced symptoms. Other symptoms other then the normal EFB symptoms of dead brood can be discolored brood food sometimes blue or yellow and sometimes young bees will crawl out and die in large numbers. EFB is more then likely a dukes mixture of bee pathogens so the symptoms can very from area to area and it can be set off by poor spring pasture or even poor pasture the fall before. Some plants of the past such as Jack Ass Clover, the only native plant in America named by beekeepers after the fact that when the bees were move into the area they would un hitch the team and then unload the bees and have a hard time finding their animals because the clover provided such good cover as it many times would grow higher then a man. This was once a principle fall pasture in central California flood lands and was notorious for EFB loss the next spring and many beekeepers would not take advantage of this plant for a honey crop because of their bad experiences if they had other pasture available. Today the plant is not found in abundance and is only called Jack Clover as most ass's in the bee industry have been replaced by trucks and forklifts and boom loaders. Another plant that may be indicative of spring EFB loss is the original old planting of blue gum trees in some areas of the San Jouquin Valley. In the rocky mountains that have good spring honey flows from dandelions EFB is also a problem if the bees are not treated with TM as I am sure there are many more. ttul Andy- Special thanks to that famous glider pilot from England, Leslie Bailey who put me on to how to use TM for EFB. Dr. Bailey is well known to beekeepers for his books HONEY BEE PATHOLOGY and INFECTIOUS DISEASES OF THE HONEY-BEE. And retired as a BEE PATHOLOGIST several years ago. (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "Where there are fruits & nuts, there are beekeepers" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 00:53:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: AFB Resistance to Terramycin Antibiotics should not be used as a preventative, only for treatment. Good bacteria as well as bad bacteria are killed off leaving bees (as well as you and I for that matter) less resistant to disease. I personnally have had only one case of foulbrood in the last ten years. Many diseases show up because bees have been weakened by mites. I noticed that the terramycin made by Phizer no longer has instructions for use on bees. H.Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:52:07 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morten Brixtofte Petersen Subject: Cough - cough Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all ! Seems like heavy clouds of smoke have spread on Bee -L. Is there some bees to be seen behind the smoke? :-) I enjoyed the various posts on smoker fuel, apperently it is evry beekeepers fate to have trouble getting it burning - and then once you are finished working bees, it (at last) burns steady. Regards Morten Denmark, Europe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:07:04 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Katedra hydinarstva a malych hosp.zvierat AF" Subject: Re: Vulnerable Varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very interesting topic to be explored, Mr. Petersen. I am also very interested about biological control Varroa by predators. In Slovakia the rapacious mite Chelyetus eruditus was tested, with no succesful results. In article from ABJ, vol.128, No.2 Susan Cobey wrote, that a scanning electron microscopy study found three types of microorganisms, including bacteria and fungi, on Varroa mites. Varroa is able to transmit fungal pathogens, such as Aspergilus which causes stonebrood. Mycelium of this fungus has also been found in Varroa suggesting it may also be a pathogen of the mite. It could be explore in article by Liu and Ritter - I did not found this paper. There may be certain microorganism which attack the mites - any suggestions ? Best wishes Robo chlebo@afnet.uniag.sk http://afnet.uniag.sk/~chlebo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:09:12 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: QUB Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects on Andy & Allen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:56:05 -0500 Brian Tassey wrote: quote....... > Another method I've heard of is burlap soaked in waste motor oil > and allowed to dry. Lots of white smoke, kills both forms of mite, unquote....... Most interesting, have you any more info on killing mites by this method :-) Phil ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:37:38 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garrett Dodds Subject: Instrumental Insemination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The topic of Instrumental Insemination (II) is a very diverse and intensive topic. The II process dips into many different areas of beekeeping, these include the raising of queens and drones as well as the basic biology of the bees. Stages of development are very important up through sexual maturity. A basic understanding of genetics is essential for the understanding of what type of crosses can be made and what to expect from them. The sex determination of the honey bee must be fully understood. And general beekeeping skills must be discussed for II to work. Instrumental Insemination is the act of transferring the semen of the drone into the oviducts of a sexually mature queen. This is accomplished with the use of a microscope to see the queen and semen from the drone, a specially designed instrument for the transfer of the semen, and a CO2 tank to anesthetize the queen during the II process. All this hast to be done in a very clean environment. The instrument must be sterilized. Any bacteria that comes into contact with the semen will contaminate it. Contaminated semen will kill many of the queens that are inseminated with it. The normal process is to collect enough semen (50-100 microliters) to inseminate 8 to 15 queens in a syringe. Any contamination will quickly spread through out the entire batch of semen. There are many variations on this process. Single Drone Inseminations (SDI), and Homogenizing semen are just a couple. SDI is the use of Inseminating a queen with semen from one drone. Since queens multiple mate with many drones a SDI queen is not mated well and will soon become a drone layer. This method of inseminations is used by researchers to reduce genetic variability in the hive ( all the drones semen is exactly identical). Homogenizing semen is used in some large breeding programs. A large quantity of semen is collected (100 + microliters) and is mixed or homogenized in a centrifuge. By using this process the whole batch of semen is thoroughly mixed and contain the same portion of semen from every drone that was used. Queens that are inseminated with homogenized semen are mated to the exactly the same drones as all the rest of the queens inseminated with it. By doing this the only genetic variation in the hive will come from the queen herself and not the semen she was inseminated with. There are very few breeding programs in the U.S. that are using II soley for their breeder stock. The New World Carniolan Program at Ohio State which has the involvement of several breeders in California is one. Hybri-Bee in Florida also uses II. Taber's Honey Bee Genetics and Glenn Apiaries in California also use II. There are several other programs throughout the rest of the world that use II soley for their breeding programs too. I don't know all their names or I would list them. All these programs vary on the style of breeding used; SDI, Hybrids, Closed Population, ect. Each has it's good points and bad points, which I will not get into now. I hope this answers some of the questions I have been receiving and if there are any other questions just ask. Garrett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:23:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: JANET MONTGOMERY Subject: Re: smoker fuel 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I also have used ammonium nitrate to calm an especially aggressive hive so I can work on it -- I read this in one of the bee magizines 5-10 years ago-- use only a small amount, 1 teaspoon per smoker , placed on top of the fuel as to much can be harmful to the bees. I don't do this often but it does seem to work when I want to work with the girls and they really don't wish to be bothered. Dan Veilleux Columbus , Ohio At 09:11 PM 10/31/96 -1000, you wrote: >I remember reading (about 30 years ago) that if one was to put a bit of ammonium >nitrate (now, it has been a .ong tiome and the chemists out there will be able >to tell us if I came up with the correct compound) in your smoker it would >produce laughing gas and put the bees to sleep. When they woke up their memoties >would be blank (well somewhat blank) and one could move the hive a few feet or >yards and they would orient themselves to the new location and never remember >where the hive had been before. > >This could also be used to sedate(hypnotize) an intansigent hive. > >On a similiar topicI remember reading in popular science about the same time >that if one attached a transducer the vibrated at a certain frequency it would >stop the bees from moving. I remember discussing this with Adrian Wenner about >this time but we never came up with a test. No, I don't remember the frequency >or decibles needed. My memory is pretty good but not perfect. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 20:27:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Charlie Bradley Subject: Re: smoker fuel 101 Hello from Indiana, On occasion I have used ammonium nitrate in my smoker. When it is heated it produces nitrous oxide, laughing gas. The first time I used I was sure that I had killed every bee in the hive. I had used too much and the bees were all out cold. In a few minutes they were all back moving around. Burning the ammonium nitrate can be dangerous. It is used to make what many people call dyamite. It is mixed with kerosene and packed in tubes. It was the fertilizer that was being loaded on ships to be sent Europe at a Texas port after WW II. It blew up and nearly wiped out the port. I don't think that you need worry about it blowing up but it does burn very hot and produces clouds of smoke, even without pumping the bellows. The way that I used it was to help controll a particularly nasty hive or when I had to work on the bees when the conditions were not favorable. I soaked burlap in a solution of ammonium nitrate and water and then dried the burlap. This was held separate from my other burlap to use in extreme conditions. I think that there has been some things written about health concerns but if you don't use it everyday it probably wouldn't be any worse than breathing the smoke from the smoker that has drifted into your face. I don't want to breath anymore of it than necessary. Charlie -------------------------------------------------------- Charles R. Bradley Extension Educator Marshall County Extension Office 112 W. Jefferson Street Room 304 Plymouth, IN 46563 Phone: 219-935-8545 Fax: 219-935-8612 E-mail: Charles_Bradley@acn.purdue.edu -------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:20:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: H K Johnson Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects on Andy & Allen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit QUB wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:56:05 -0500 Brian Tassey wrote: > > quote....... > > Another method I've heard of is burlap soaked in waste motor oil > > and allowed to dry. Lots of white smoke, kills both forms of mite, > unquote....... > > Most interesting, have you any more info on killing mites by this > method :-) > > Philawesome idea, i've wondered if something like this might work here on the farm we've used stuff like this on various animal cages killing flee's etc.. but i figured that this would kill the bees as well lets have more info ! hk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:31:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harold Sweet Subject: Re: Queen Line Jars Hi There - I'm a bee equipment dealer on the west coast. Due mostly to shipping I have to charge 13.95 for a case of 24 1lb QL jars. It's kind of hard to compete with Ball mason jars but I still sell quite a few of them. H. Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:29:46 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "M.Westby (Max Westby)" Subject: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear bee people Greetings from Sheffield. Has somebody out there got a method for separating propolis from the bits of wood, bee and wax from my hive scrapings? I now have about 2 kg of the stuff and want to start doing something with it... Cheers, Max (\ ---------------------------------------------------{|||8------- Dr G W Max Westby (/ Dept of Psychology University of Sheffield, SHEFFIELD S10 2TN, England. Phone (Dept): +44 (0)114 276 8555 Extension 6549 Phone (Dept): +44 (0)114 282 6549 (direct line) Phone (Home): +44 (0)114 236 1038 Fax: +44 (0)114 276 6515 E-mail: m.westby@sheffield.ac.uk Web Site: http://www.shef.ac.uk/psychology/westby/ --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: watering bees in transit In a message dated 96-11-03 19:22:19 EST, b-man@aliens.com (Kirk Jones) writes: << I plan to put a soaker hose over a load of bees (under the net) to water them when they reach warmer temperatures. Question...what would be the best instructions to give an inexperienced driver? I thought it would be a good idea to water them down if he stops briefly during the day and temps were 80 degrees F or hotter. If anyone has some advice, I'm listening. >> You are unlikely to have any problems at this (autumn) end of the journey. Going back north in the spring is where you usually hit problems. I once got caught in a construction-caused traffic jam in North Carolina at 90 degrees F. The lower hives, that had the least ventilation melted down. I got off an exit and hosed them down at a truck stop, which I'm sure saved some. I have also saved loads in trouble by altering my route to go over the pass to Winchester, VA. It may be 90 in Richmond, but 65 with a good stiff wind at the top of the pass. But better have good brakes before trying any mountain climbing. If you are running Interstate 75, you might try to schedule the trip so the hottest part of the day you are in eastern Tennessee, where it is coolest due to elevation. Coming down: If they have been unable to have a cleansing flight for a few days, you'll have fun unloading them. Try to schedule early morning unloading, if at all possible. You'll still get painted, but you don't want to try it in late morning or afternoon. Besides the paint job, it get's kind of hard to work in the dark (so many bees in the air!). But they'll stay in, as long as you keep rolling, on the way down. You are unlikely now to hit 80 degrees, unless you are going way to South Florida. Our hot spell has broken here in S Carolina. We were in the mid 80's twice last week, but only for a couple hours each day. This morning, with ice on the windshield, I wouldn't expect to see 80 again until spring. Our growing season is now over, for any frost-tender plants. On second thought, if you are going way south, and you arrive in the evening, with overnight temps above 60 or so, you might want to connect the soaker hose for an hour to cool them; otherwise you may have a lot of bees outside the hives. Again, plan to get them off EARLY. In the spring, when you are more likely to have significant difficulty, cooling can be vital. If you can schedule a rainy day, you are in fat city, but all-day rains don't often happen here in spring. Soaker hoses are a good idea, if you know where you can find a hose quickly. Otherwise, just spraying the bees will work. If you have to run in extreme heat, it is worth it to get a block of ice chopped at a truck stop, early in the morning. Blow the ice on top, and let it drip down through the load. It may give the bees enough relief to get you through the worst of the day. If you are hiring trucking, know your trucker, or GO WITH HIM, no matter how tired you are. Loads of bees have been lost, by truckers who promise to go straight through, but have a girlfriend enroute. A load parked in the sun for just a couple hours, is probably a dead load. And it is very hard to collect on cargo insurance, not to speak of dealing with the apple grower who is waiting for the bees. You'll find yourself chewing fingernails from the time the truck is loaded, until it is unloaded back north. One common mistake for first timers is to have the bees TOO STRONG when trucking back north. A ten frame hive should have no more than four frames of brood for a long run north about May 1. The strongest, most congested hives are the ones that will all run out en masse, abandoning brood, and though the adults may not die, the hive is dead, at that point. If I had to truck, with no cool or rainy spells in sight, I think I'd spend the last day before trucking, shaking packages or removing excess brood from the stronger ones. Leave the brood in nucs for the next trip, or sell it. Another approach that could help a lot, but means a lot more equipment, is top and bottom screens. If you have these, with tight equipment, and water hosing, you can truck anything just about anywhere, anytime. Few beekeepers use this method though, at least on the east coast. Few beekeepers even have really tight equipment, not to speak of the extra cost and weight of the equipment. I hope I've reassured you on the trip down, but am afraid I've given you more to fear in the spring. One factor that I think makes a significant difference is that the bees are pretty dormant now. They haven't had much to do for a while, don't expect much to do for a while, and they are pretty content to just relax and enjoy the ride. They'll be happily surprised to find blooming spanish needle, etc. in the south, but they don't know that till they get there. On the return trip in the spring, bees have been working hard on spring bloom. When daylight arrives, they expect to go out again. When they can't, they get frantic, and begin the chain reaction that gets you into problems. The more excited they get, the more heat they create, and the more heat, the more excited they get. Good luck, and happy traveling. Stop by here on the way back. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:28:08 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: AFB resistence to TM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding David J. Trickett's query about AFB resistence to TM: Again I don't recall the source, and I'm in denial over my alzheimers, but I recall hearing about AFB resistence to terramycin developing in areas of Argentina. Details included a modicum of misuse of the medications, but I can't recall the specifics. Probably a recent back issue of _A_B_J_, but I can't say with assuredness. OK, I guess the alzheimers is becomming undeniable ;) /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:51:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Betty Crocker "Save our bees" M>Brian R Tucker wrote: >> >> Just was woondering why don't we all just donate the 32cents we would spend >> on a stamp instead of spending the money for the cherios and 32cents for th >> to donate 25cents. >This is one of several reasons I enjoy reading mail from this >group.Great sense of humor and wit!! I hope you all would get mad and figure out how we can get the $100,000 for research from GM and not spend our 32 cents. Like get some big school district interested in "saving the bees" and have the kids all bringing in the cut out bees. I am still waiting for my information packet from Ms HONEYNETCHERRIOS as sometimes there are hooks in these promotions and maybe we could use a copy machine to make many little sons of bees to send in instead of subjecting all of our children to the dangers of using sharp tools to cut the bee off the package and the resulting dangers of loss of fingers, eyes, and the occasional stabbing death if you have more then one child, not discounting the danger to the parents. More then likely the hook will be that the only bee that will be accepted is the one off the $5 box of the stuff. I am just about finished my 2nd box and just noticed they are again on sale at my local Chinese Market for 89 cents a box for a 6.5 oz box, could be it would make good food for my gold fish I hope so because I think my cat has had about all he can hold as he is now swollen up to about twice his size from when this all started, has warn his claws out digging in the cement driveway, and I am still not sure if it is all that good for his urinary tract, something that we all need to be very concerned about if you believe the advertising for cat food on the TV.(And they don't advertise condoms on TV?) I love my cat he is something special. A gift I brought from Arizona many years ago to the local cat population in Los Banos. He is many generations from the original pair of Bobbed Tail or Manx cats that have some broken genes and are born with no tails or stubby tails, and some have 6 toes. This one has five, but has the big feet and he stands higher in the back then the front. He also never learned to use his claws other then hooking them in my pants to let me know he is watching me and it is hilarious when he jumps from one area to a higher perch and hangs there unable to do much more the slip off. Enough for now as he is watching and gets real hyper when I write about him. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... And where the bee with cowslip bells was wrestling. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:43:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: The Next Step??? (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello all again... I am sending this post again because I am wondering if it got out to the list the first time, as I got only one response to what I thought might be a good idea. Please read this and if you have any thoughts or comments, please posts them back to the list. For those of you who have never been on a "chat", it can be a lot of fun and I think a quicker mode of discussion about bees...:) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:02:55 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Watson To: Discussion of Bee Biology Subject: The Next Step??? Hello all.....:) Having enjoyed immensely being a part of this list, I suddenly had an idea. I thought it would be "neat" to converse more directly. And the obvious forum would be a "Talker" or a "MOO". If you dont know what these are, they are virtual "rooms" or "places" where you telnet to, to talk, via the internet, to others. So therefore, my idea is to arrange for a regular time or times and of course the "place", to meet and chat about bees. It would be like a virtual bee meeting...;) I have a possible suggestion for a Talker to congregate at for these meetings. It is a local one to me and I am a Sherrif there, which means I have some authority that regular Users dont. So I think I could facilitate the organizing of these "International Beekeepers Meeting". Well...now for your feedback....:) cheers.. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:59:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Insulation In-Reply-To: <961104090156_1947865152@emout16.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Bee-listers... Well, its that time of year. And since all my bees died last winter I thought I might ask the lists what the best way to insulate their hives for the winter, since this may have been my problem. What I was planning to do was place an empty super over (or under?) the inner cover and fill it with something....maybe straw?....Well.that is what I would like to know. I know they need ventilation during the winter to get rid of moisture, and I just popped an outer cover and there is already drops of water on the inner cover.... Any help would be most appreciated..: Ian @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:28:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: 20 minute spiel Comments: To: berryfarm@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I set up a booth at a local bookstore a few weeks ago that included an empty hive, a super full of honey, block of wax, tools, smoker, etc and a 1 frame observation hive. It was as fun for the crowds as it was for me! Playing find the queen kept the kids busy. Folks enjoyed seeing what was in those funny white boxes, I believe they were less afraid of bees afterwards. (Also having a couple of honey bears and business cards is free advertising) >I would like to hear suggestions from other beekeepers on what to >"show and tell" during my 20 minute spiel. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:24:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: The Next Step??? (fwd) I have been on an AOL chat. So I know what a chat is. I didn't quite understand your post, however. Mary P.S. I would be interested in a chat if the time is convenient and it isn't too hard to get there. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:11:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Caucasian Strain of Bees In a message dated 96-11-01 11:13:49 EST, you write: << I think I might try a couple of Caucasian queens next spring in my top bar hives. I would enjoy email conversations with any of you who keep/kept Caucasians. Do you think they'd do better in tbh's than Italians? Seems that I read somewhere that Caucasians are reluctant to spread brood upward. Any information that you can supply would be appreciated. Cordially yours, Jim >> Jim , I just got to know, how did the bees we sent you perform in the top bar hives. Dean Breaux Hybri Bees Breeding Better Bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:45:02 CST6CDT Reply-To: Bajema@dordt.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Duane H. Bajema" Organization: Dordt College Subject: combining hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have a problem and could use some advice. Last week, I had a hive tip over due to strong wind. I lost some bees and now the hive is is occupied by a relatively small bee population. I want to join the small population with an existing strong hive since the small colony would have a difficult time surviving the winter. My question is, how do I proceed here in Northwest Iowa where the temperatures are already below freezing? Will the two queens do battle till one survives or do I run the danger of losing both queens if I join the colonies? I have joined a queenless colony with a queenright colony many times using the newspaper method, but I have never joined two queenright colonies at this late time of the year. Suggestions? ------------------------------------------------------------ Duane H. Bajema e-mail bajema@dordt.edu Agriculture Department 712/722-6275 office Dordt College 712/722-1198 FAX Sioux Center, IA 51250 ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:46:49 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And how exactly does Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife acquire cougar pee? At 01:43 AM 11/3/96 +0000, you wrote: >This may not be so far fetched. Here in Oregon, we get cougar and other >mountain lion urine from the state dept. of fish and wildlife to help keep >the deer away from our fruit trees and berry bushes. It seems to work, but >gets washed away quickly in the "constant" rains here. > >At 11:41 AM 11/2/96 +0000, you wrote: >>I was wondering if the members of Bee-L could help me settle a debate I'm >>having with my father. He was trying to tell me that years ago he would >>get lion dung at the zoo. He claims he would spread it around his bee >>yards to keep the bears away. >> >>Is my dad trying to test my gullibility or has anyone else heard of this? >>Any Zoologists out there ? >> >>Kevin Christensen >> > > Marcia Sinclair Writer & Editor Gresham, Oregon wordland@mail.aracnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:57:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John A Skinner Subject: Re: Federal Funds In-Reply-To: <199610281804.KAA21552@trapdoor.aracnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good Job Marcia John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Marcia Sinclair wrote: > This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. Steven > tossed out an idea and deserves a reasonable response, not political > ranting. Please, folks, back off. We are cheering for Cherios, hoping for > federal funding for research, so why is it so outrageous to consider > assistance to beekeepers? Farmers and ranchers have been subsidized for > years. In the midst of a crisis in pollinators in this country, Steve's > concept deserves consideration. I'd rather have my tax dollars go toward > beekeeping than bombers. Whether you agree, disagree or want to ponder it, > at least keep the dialogue more civil. > > > > At 05:36 PM 10/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > >> With all the problems of low bee populations, I wonder if the > >Federal Gov. > >has any programs to help beginning beekeepers. I started with two > >hives this > >year and plan to expand next year. This can be expensive and will be > >done > >slowly unless there is some type of program available. > >Steven Albritton > >LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms > >Monroe, Louisiana> > > > >The above message states the main problem we have and that is people > >looking to the all mighty Federal Gov. to solve all of our problems. > >I started out a couple of years ago with just 7 hives and have built > >that number up to 50. I did not run to the Feds with my hand out to > >take other peoples money to spend. If you want to be a producer then > >PRODUCE. > > > >Bill Hughes > >Bent Holly Honey Farms > >Brighton, TN USA > > > > > Marcia Sinclair > Writer & Editor > Gresham, Oregon > wordland@mail.aracnet.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:40:38 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Daddyo Subject: Re: Lion Dung MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And how exactly does Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife acquire cougar pee? YEAH!!! How the hell do they do that? > > > At 01:43 AM 11/3/96 +0000, you wrote: > >This may not be so far fetched. Here in Oregon, we get cougar and other > >mountain lion urine from the state dept. of fish and wildlife to help keep > >the deer away from our fruit trees and berry bushes. It seems to work, but > >gets washed away quickly in the "constant" rains here. > > > >At 11:41 AM 11/2/96 +0000, you wrote: > >>I was wondering if the members of Bee-L could help me settle a debate I'm > >>having with my father. He was trying to tell me that years ago he would > >>get lion dung at the zoo. He claims he would spread it around his bee > >>yards to keep the bears away. > >> > >>Is my dad trying to test my gullibility or has anyone else heard of this? > >>Any Zoologists out there ? > >> > >>Kevin Christensen > >> > > > > > Marcia Sinclair > Writer & Editor > Gresham, Oregon > wordland@mail.aracnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I >>>pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure >here? > > About a year or so ago Bee Culture ran an article written by a couple who invented an ingenious solution to smoker fuel. They fashinoned a double walled basket (kinda basket-in-a-basket idea) inserts using hardware cloth (1/2" , I think), then compacted pine shavings ($3.50/BALE at my feed store) into the baskets. The insert fits inside the smoker and is lit with newspaper (although I like the propane torch idea!). According to these folks the baskets last for *several* hours! In fact I believe they cited this as a drawback for the hobbyist with only a couple of hives....no way to extinguish the damn thing after it got going. They have made several baskets and always have spares filled and ready to go. I'm just telling this from memory, being too lazy to dig out the article, but I think I've covered the gist of it. Regards, Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: The Next Step??? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <961104122417_1516290925@emout17.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, wrote: > I have been on an AOL chat. So I know what a chat is. I didn't quite > understand your post, however. > Mary > P.S. I would be interested in a chat if the time is convenient and it isn't > too hard to get there. > I didnt mean to insult anyone by explaining what a chat is...I just thought some beeliners wouldnt have tried them yet..:) Was the post that unintelligable?..How so?...;) As far as hard to get there, it shouldnt be. You just telnet there. I will post the address later once I get a feel for the lists thoughts...:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: The Next Step??? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <961104122417_1516290925@emout17.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello..:) About the Chat idea?.... I would appreciate any input regarding what day, time, freqency of meetings etc. Thanks..:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:50:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Patrick M. O'Hearn" Organization: Bears Choice Honey Subject: Leaf Cutter Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello the list, A farmer friend who has one of my apiaries also has leaf cutter (alfalfa )bees. He needs to buy new nest boards for a field expansion and asked me if I knew of a commercial supplier of these nest boards. I told him I would ask around. Can anyone out there give me an address of a commercial supplier of these boards? Thanks Patrick M. O'Hearn Bears Choice Honey patrick@cyberport.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: The Next Step??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ian Watson wrote: >Having enjoyed immensely being a part of this list, I suddenly had an >idea. I thought it would be "neat" to converse more directly. And the >obvious forum would be a "Talker" or a "MOO". If you dont know what these >are, they are virtual "rooms" or "places" where you telnet to, to talk, >via the internet, to others. So therefore, my idea is to arrange for a >regular time or times and of course the "place", to meet and chat about >bees. It would be like a virtual bee meeting...;) >Well...now for your feedback....:) I think it would be a wonderful idea to have this forum, the only problem would arise from the various time zones. From Ontario times from the UK are 5 hours ahead, California is 3 hours behind, Australia and New Zealand I am not too sure about from here but you can see where I'm going. The only solution, I can suggest, would be to have several groups with a co-ordinator who doesn't mind missing a few hours sleep to pass the thread from one group to the next. We would be very interested in joining. Please keep us posted. Regards Jean.......... **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:28:14 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: AFB resistence to TM -Reply BEE-Liners, The paper on this topic is "Evaluacion de la resistencia de cepas de Bacillus alvei a cinco antibioticos para el control de las loques americana y europea." by Adriana M. Alippi. in 'Revista de la Facultad de Agronomia, La Plata. Tomo 68. Ano 1992: 79-82'. Regards, Robert Rice Ministry of Agriculture (South Island) New Zealand. e-mail ricer@lincoln.mqm.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: The Next Step??? In-Reply-To: <199611042056.PAA02104@segwun.muskoka.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, David Eyre wrote: > I think it would be a wonderful idea to have this forum, the only > problem would arise from the various time zones. From Ontario times from the > UK are 5 hours ahead, California is 3 hours behind, Australia and New > Zealand I am not too sure about from here but you can see where I'm going. > The only solution, I can suggest, would be to have several groups with a > co-ordinator who doesn't mind missing a few hours sleep to pass the thread > from one group to the next. > > We would be very interested in joining. Please keep us posted. > > Regards Jean.......... Ah..a very good point Jean. Thanks.. Ok..keep those suggestions coming people...;) We will figure this task out eventually...:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:40:47 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wilson Subject: Re: Federal Funds In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hear, Hear Marcia ! email: pjwilson@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, John A Skinner wrote: > Good Job Marcia > > John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall > Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee > jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 > > > On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Marcia Sinclair wrote: > > > This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. Steven > > tossed out an idea and deserves a reasonable response, not political > > ranting. Please, folks, back off. We are cheering for Cherios, hoping for > > federal funding for research, so why is it so outrageous to consider > > assistance to beekeepers? Farmers and ranchers have been subsidized for > > years. In the midst of a crisis in pollinators in this country, Steve's > > concept deserves consideration. I'd rather have my tax dollars go toward > > beekeeping than bombers. Whether you agree, disagree or want to ponder it, > > at least keep the dialogue more civil. > > > > > > > > At 05:36 PM 10/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > > >> With all the problems of low bee populations, I wonder if the > > >Federal Gov. > > >has any programs to help beginning beekeepers. I started with two > > >hives this > > >year and plan to expand next year. This can be expensive and will be > > >done > > >slowly unless there is some type of program available. > > >Steven Albritton > > >LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms > > >Monroe, Louisiana> > > > > > >The above message states the main problem we have and that is people > > >looking to the all mighty Federal Gov. to solve all of our problems. > > >I started out a couple of years ago with just 7 hives and have built > > >that number up to 50. I did not run to the Feds with my hand out to > > >take other peoples money to spend. If you want to be a producer then > > >PRODUCE. > > > > > >Bill Hughes > > >Bent Holly Honey Farms > > >Brighton, TN USA > > > > > > > > Marcia Sinclair > > Writer & Editor > > Gresham, Oregon > > wordland@mail.aracnet.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:55:53 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: antibiotic resistant AFB MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The spores of the bacteria that causes AFB (Bacillus larvae) are viable for decades. A couple of years ago, the susceptibility (to oxytetracycline HCL (the active ingredient of Terramycin) of cultures from old spores (1924) was compared to the susceptibility of cultures from current (1994) spores. Shuimanuki H and D. Knox. 1994. Susceptibility of Bacillus larvae to Terramycin. ABJ Vol 134 No 2 p 125-126. Current AFB was found to be just as susceptible as old-time AFB. That result seems better than should have been hoped for, since beekeepers' use of oxytetracline for 40 years was sometimes nearly a recipe for developing bacterial resistance (ie. half-treat active infections, use the same product all the time, use uneven or haphazard doses, then throw the half-empty package in the truck til next year, etc.). For some reason, resistant strains didn't survive in the field (or maybe they were infrequent enough that beekeepers weeded them out after the hives died). There's been a recent change, though, that makes the appearance of oxytetracycline resistant AFB more likely: widespread, nearly continuous use of antibiotic extender patties. This is the one ingredient that was missing: a continuous selection pressure. While continuous vegetable oil patties may be recommended for tracheal mite control, and while the same patty can be used to apply antibiotic, antibiotic extender patties should not be used for months at a time. (The vegetable oil (not the antibiotic) is the active ingredient for tracheal mites). Long-term (months) continuous use of antibiotic extender patties can result in antibiotic residues appearing in an extracted honey crop, and will act to select antibiotic-resistant strains of AFB. Antibiotic extender patties can be a useful tool to apply oxytetracycline, but should be used (where they are permitted) only for short periods (just as other methods: medicated syrup, dry application, etc. would be used). Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (250) 784-2231 fax (250) 784-2299 INTERNET kclark@galaxy.gov.bc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 18:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: combining hives REGARDING RE>combining hives Duane Bajema wrote: >Last week, I had a hive tip over due to strong wind. I lost some bees and now the hive is is occupied by a relatively small bee population. I want to join the small population with an existing strong hive since the small colony would have a difficult time surviving the winter. My question is, how do I proceed here in Northwest Iowa where the temperatures are already below freezing? Will the two queens do battle till one survives or do I run the danger of losing both queens if I join the colonies? I have joined a queenless colony with a queenright colony many times using the newspaper method, but I have never joined two queenright colonies at this late time of the year. Suggestions?< This is certainly a difficult time of the year to have to deal with such a problem. The results of doing nothing would, as you surmise, probably lead to the winter kill of the weak colony. In this light, I would think that you would join these colonies at this time of the year without using newspaper. With temperatures as cold as they are getting now in the midwest US, I doubt that there would be any intra-hive battles between the workers. The queens would probably be OK too, for the most part. If they should happen to come upon each other they might fight, but that's a chance you will have to take. The alternative would be to open a hive in the cold to go looking for the queen when the colony would probably be in winter cluster! Hive combining might work or might not, but leaving it alone surely won't work at all. Ted Fischer Dexter, MI USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 18:06:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: Re: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:40 PM 11/4/96 -0600, you wrote: >> And how exactly does Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife acquire >cougar pee? > >YEAH!!! How the hell do they do that? I understand they don't really know. I've heard they send out a young apprentice every day to collect, but none has ever returned. All they find is a full specimen bottle laying out under a bush. It seems to work, though, and it sure keeps the deer away! Guy F. Miller My basic credo: If you walk slow enough, Charlottesville. VA you can lead the next parade. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:12:36 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: [Fwd: Pitiful Sight] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm posting this here in bee-l for a friend of mine from sci.agriculture.beekeeping. You can reply to the list or to him personally. --------------------- Subject: Pitiful Sight Date: 4 Nov 1996 00:49:06 GMT From: KEN LAWRENCE Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Two weeks ago noticed very few bees in hives. I have been treating with WINTERGREEN for about 45 days and have given them about 5 quarts. Today I went out to put on my last Terramycin and Sugar dust. Out of 31 hives I have less than 8 strong hives and will combine 5 very weak hives and try to get them thru the winter. I have my bees in 4 different yards but took a beating in all yards. How is the rest of y'alls bees doing? My hives all have a full body of honey on each of the hives I lost. All my hives are double hive bodies except 5 and they are single but will lose three of them for sure. Ken the Sick Beekeeper ------------------------ -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Trattle <106170.150@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel Sacks and carboard used for packaging are often treated with a fire retardent these days so you may find sacking burns better if you give it a rinse first. I've heard that elephant dung is highly prised as a smoker fuel in Africa but that's a bit hard to find here in the UK so I generally start with small ball of newspaper and once thats flaming nicely I stuff in a handful of semi dry lawn trimmings. If the moisture content is just right they will burn for hours and produce plenty of smoke. Joe Trattle Norfolk England ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:29:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Lion Dung MS>And how exactly does Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife acquire cougar p Here in California one of my neighbors is a long time state trapper and he tells me other then being very careful doing this kind of work he said he collected it and many other natural scents from captured and cage mountain lions, and coyotes. I won't go into the gross details. As for using it to repel deer it does work if the deer are not really hungry and then even tall fences will not keep them out of a garden or orchard. Don't know about bears as most here use well constructed electric fences. The down side to using natural scents is that they are better at attracting animals then repelling them, and I am not sure I would want a pride of mountain lions roaming about in my garden at night, but I have hunted them in a past life and had many chances to shoot at them and could not because of their natural beauty...they are now a real problem in California and I would not stop to think about if I had a chance as they have just about eliminated the deer population in this area. They also are protected by law and require the permission of the governor countersigned by the green peace to kill. They are killing and injuring more people then honeybees in California. I have used many tons of dried blood (animal type), also a real hot source of Nitrogen, to repeal deer. It works only as long as you keep adding fresh and if you skip on a wet or windy day the deer will enter and did eating even the onions.. The problem went away for a year or two after a 18 hole golf course was built several miles away, but the deer population increased and they came back with revenge. As a boy we had more deer to dinner then beef as we had a year around permit to reduce their numbers on our small ranch which was in a NO hunting/shooting area because of city people moving to the country and their lack of common sense when it comes to guns and hunting. Most can not tell a deer for a cow and all put our lives in danger during hunting season. Someday when you have time I will tell you my story of the famous Brain Surgeon who lived down the road a few miles and because a bee stung him and he found out I had one beehive, my first as a 4-H project, was going to sue my parents and take our ranch and home. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Vereniging tot Bevordering van de Bijenteelt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:28:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: San Diego's Local Scene -- Oct. 23, 1996 ---------------------------------------- This is the last article I could find from San Diego, California. This area is one of very good bee pasture and is used by many commercial and hobbyist beekeepers who migrate with thousands of hives in and out of the area. It is located about 90 miles from the coast. I have not seen any reports how these bees came to be checked, or if they were at all aggressive. ttul Andy- ---------------------------------------- Buzz Buzz Buzz Africanized honey bees have buzzed their way into San Diego County, according to the Department of Agriculture, Weights and Measures. Two samples of the so -called "killer bees" were taken from the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park, and county officials say they are not surprised by the find since the bees have already been sighted in nearby Riverside County. Since scientists consider the 20-mile radius of a find to be Africanized, the county warns that all desert visitors should take precautions against the bees. In the past six years, these stingers have been blamed for four deaths in the Southwest. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Nor will a bee buzz round two swelling peaches, ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 01:28:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: antibiotic resistant > infections, use the same product all the time, use uneven or haphazard > doses, then throw the half-empty package in the truck til next year, > etc.). I would add a little more on TM.. Lucky for us this material does change if not stored properly, and most of the time it is very easy to detect when it has been open to air, excessive heat, light, or moisture, and time. It will change to a very ugly color, and get lumpy if mishandled and held open in high humidity environments. At least what is sold here for bees will. I know from that 40 years experience using the stuff. Each individual package should also be imprinted with a lot number and expiration date and the product should be returned if out dated, and if any of the above symptoms are present. The manufacture will gladly replace it or refund your money as they are concerned with your satisfaction and the louser in several big law suits over the years that has given them a customer is always right attitude. It is also well to remember that there are several other antibiotics that will work just as well for propylic treatment of bees that have been lab and field tested but never registered, (at least in the US), such as Aureomycin, and Tylosian, (excuse the bad spelling) and several others I won't mention. ttul Andy- --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Where bee-hives range on a gray bench in the garden, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:36:22 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, based on the sounds my small domestic cat makes when the vet takes a sample, I'd hate to be the poor little bureaucrat sent in to squeeze the cougar. Fences seem to be the best solution for keeping deer out of the brussel sprouts, but I am intrigued by use of lion dung, as Portland Zoo has a program called Zoo Doo which delivers manure to gardeners. Hadn't thought of requesting a specific species of the stuff. I'll start my garden next spring in a former pasture and I'm sure to have a few visitors. I live in cougar habitat, too. No telling what our local big cats may think of Eau De King of the Jungle. At 07:29 PM 11/4/96 GMT, you wrote: >MS>And how exactly does Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife acquire cougar p > >Here in California one of my neighbors is a long time state trapper >and he tells me other then being very careful doing this kind of work he >said he collected it and many other natural scents from captured and >cage mountain lions, and coyotes. I won't go into the gross details. > >As for using it to repel deer it does work if the deer are not really >hungry and then even tall fences will not keep them out of a garden or >orchard. Don't know about bears as most here use well constructed >electric fences. > >The down side to using natural scents is that they are better at >attracting animals then repelling them, and I am not sure I would >want a pride of mountain lions roaming about in my garden at night, >but I have hunted them in a past life and had many chances to shoot >at them and could not because of their natural beauty...they are now >a real problem in California and I would not stop to think about if I >had a chance as they have just about eliminated the deer population in >this area. They also are protected by law and require the permission of >the governor countersigned by the green peace to kill. They are killing >and injuring more people then honeybees in California. > >I have used many tons of dried blood (animal type), also a real hot >source of Nitrogen, to repeal deer. It works only as long as you keep >adding fresh and if you skip on a wet or windy day the deer will enter >and did eating even the onions.. The problem went away for a year or >two after a 18 hole golf course was built several miles away, but the >deer population increased and they came back with revenge. As a boy we >had more deer to dinner then beef as we had a year around permit to >reduce their numbers on our small ranch which was in a NO >hunting/shooting area because of city people moving to the country and >their lack of common sense when it comes to guns and hunting. Most can >not tell a deer for a cow and all put our lives in danger during hunting >season. > >Someday when you have time I will tell you my story of the famous Brain >Surgeon who lived down the road a few miles and because a bee stung him >and he found out I had one beehive, my first as a 4-H project, was going >to sue my parents and take our ranch and home. > > ttul Andy- > > >(c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document >in any form, or to print for any use. > >(w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. > >--- > ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Vereniging tot Bevordering van de Bijenteelt > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: SHolisky Subject: Re: combining hives Comments: To: Bajema@dordt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duane H. Bajema wrote: > My question is, how do I proceed here in Northwest Iowa where the Hi Duane, I'd treat them like a nuc that I wanted to winter over. Put a division screen above a strong hive, put the small unit above that. It should be heavy with stores and a fair spot for them to cluster. ( oh yes, wrap em' and a moisture board helps too! You never know how brutal the winter maybe ) There you have my "secret" for wintering over nucs. :) Scott near St.Paul, MN USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 22:28:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Open Feeding After feeding each hive this fall I concerning open feeding next this spring to cut down on my work load. I would like some feed back on the pros and cons of this feeding method. Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm Brighton, TN USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 22:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Re: Federal Funds Comments: To: jskinner@utk.edu Dr. Skinner, I am upset over this insult to me you sent over the B-LISt. I am a taxpayer of this State and I attended your hobbist course you conducted in Memphis earlier this year. If you had a beef with me you should have E-mailed me directly instead of tring to humilate me publicly. Need I remind you that you are a public employee of this state. You may hide behind UT but my tax money pays your salary. You ccan take this any way you want, but I want an apology. If you do not I will be forced to complain to the state over your use of a taxpayer funded computer system to insult a taxpayer. Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farms Brighton, TN 250 Leonard Lane >>Good Job Marcia John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Marcia Sinclair wrote: << > This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. Steven > tossed out an idea and deserves a reasonable response, not political > ranting. Please, folks, back off. We are cheering for Cherios, hoping for > federal funding for research, so why is it so outrageous to consider > assistance to beekeepers? Farmers and ranchers have been subsidized for > years. In the midst of a crisis in pollinators in this country, Steve's > concept deserves consideration. I'd rather have my tax dollars go toward > beekeeping than bombers. Whether you agree, disagree or want to ponder it, > at least keep the dialogue more civil. > > > > At 05:36 PM 10/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > >> With all the problems of low bee populations, I wonder if the > >Federal Gov. > >has any programs to help beginning beekeepers. I started with two > >hives this > >year and plan to expand next year. This can be expensive and will be > >done > >slowly unless there is some type of program available. > >Steven Albritton > >LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms > >Monroe, Louisiana> > > > >The above message states the main problem we have and that is people > >looking to the all mighty Federal Gov. to solve all of our problems. > >I started out a couple of years ago with just 7 hives and have built > >that number up to 50. I did not run to the Feds with my hand out to > >take other peoples money to spend. If you want to be a producer then > >PRODUCE. > > > >Bill Hughes > >Bent Holly Honey Farms > >Brighton, TN USA > > > > > Marcia Sinclair > Writer & Editor > Gresham, Oregon > wordland@mail.aracnet.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:27:49 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: AFB resistence to TM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Again I don't recall the source, and I'm in denial over my alzheimers, > but I recall hearing about AFB resistence to terramycin developing in > areas of Argentina. Details included a modicum of misuse of the > medications, but I can't recall the specifics. Probably a recent back > issue of _A_B_J_, but I can't say with assuredness. OK, I guess the > alzheimers is becomming undeniable ;) While *I* think, but could not confirm, that it may have been one of Tom Sandford's APIS issues? No time just now to search... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:32:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: processing propolis Greetings BEE-Lers, Mr. Westby asked what to do with propolis scrapings. I have heard that BEEHIVE BOTANICALS will buy your dirty propolis, process it and give you 6 bucks per pound. There is even a propolis trap ( kind of like a plastic q. excluder ) that you put under the top board. The bees pack it with propolis, you take it out and put it in your freezer until hard, then twist it a little to break off the propolis. H. Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:52:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Insulation Greetings BEE-Lers, I. Watson brought up the subject of ventilation vs condensation. Here's my 2 cents: In a wet pacific coastal environment it gets cold but there's few serious frosts and no snow. Masonite covers such as inner covers and tele covers invite major condensation problems. I like to use an inner cover with window screen stapled over the hole for ventilation year around. In the cold season I cover that with 3/4" to 1" thick styrofoam and make a thumb sized hole over the screen. Add some spacers and a big plywood raintop and my bees stay warm and dry. I've seen all kinds of ventilation doodads. Experiment and use what works. Good Luk. H.Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:18:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: combining hives Greetings BEE-Lers, Scott Holisky re: combining hives mentioned a moisture board. Scott, could you describe this "moisture board"? Thanks, H.Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:37:56 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: combining hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:53 PM 11/4/96 -0400, you wrote: >Duane H. Bajema wrote: > >> My question is, how do I proceed here in Northwest Iowa where the > >Hi Duane, I'd treat them like a nuc that I wanted to winter >over. Put a division screen above a strong hive, put the small >unit above that. It should be heavy with stores and a fair >spot for them to cluster. ( oh yes, wrap em' and a moisture >board helps too! You never know how brutal the winter maybe ) > >There you have my "secret" for wintering over nucs. :) By a "division screen" is this a double screan with the entrance to the back? What is "fair spot"? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 04:09:29 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David J Trickett Subject: Re: antibiotic resistant AFB Comments: cc: Sam Clark In-Reply-To: from "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax" at Nov 4, 96 12:55:53 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who responded with comments or citations regarding my query on whether or not resistance to TM by AFB has been detected or is developing (or is likely to develop). My evolving understanding of the subject leads me to focus on points made by Andy and Kerry Clark. Andy wrote: "One reason for this good news in bee medication could be that in the US and many other places for the most part beekeepers take out the individual hives that do not respond to treatment and treat them to the fire pit so we are treating mostly healthy hives." Kerry Clark wrote: "For some reason, resistant strains didn't survive in the field > (or maybe they were infrequent enough that beekeepers weeded them out > after the hives died). > > There's been a recent change, though, that makes the appearance of > oxytetracycline resistant AFB more likely: widespread, nearly continuous > use of antibiotic extender patties. This is the one ingredient that was > missing: a continuous selection pressure." These points lead me to believe that what has happened is that resistant strains may have developed (or be in existence) but that when a hive in which they develop fails to respond to TM treatment, it is either burned or otherwise drastically treated (e.g., fumigation,, lye bath, irradiation... have I missed any?) so that the strain in question is eradicated. This seems reasonable enough to me, but then I have to wonder that in such situations the spores aren't spread to other hives via robbing before the beekeeper gets a chance to remove the hive from the yard and burn/treat it. In other words, quick drastic treatment preventing spread of the spores and resulting in destruction of the strain could be the reason we aren't seeing resistance. BUT... Is this really happening? I.e., do such hives really get pulled out of the yard and isolated from robbing before the strain is spread? Assuming this is not the case (I know I don't always catch a dying hive (whether from foulbrood or mites (happily not THIS year... sofar)) however, I have to wonder if something else is not also at play. Kerry emphasizes that CONTINOUS application may be the determining factor and that until recently, continuous application was not typical. This makes me call into question my own (fragmentary) understanding of how resistance to antibiotics is acquired/developed by microorganisms. Assuming that one can't "kill" i.e., remove the AFB infection but only "treat the symptoms," isn't it necessary to continually treat infected colonies (with short breaks in treatment during the honeyflow) and doesn't this constitute continuous treatment? Certainly, there's a break in the treatment, but it seems to me that *the issue is whether or not the infectious organism is actually killed off and removed* by one or more treatments. My understanding is that it is never the case that AFB is removed by TM, so continuous, vs. one-time treatment should not make any difference in terms of producing a resistant strain. The only difference would be that the hive treated only once would eventually succumb, while the continuously treated hive would survive. (Kerry, I'm assuming you know a lot more about this than me, so I'm hoping you can explain why my reasoning is false.) At this point then, it seems to me that the primary factor is the destruction/drastic treatment of hives with the non-responsive strains of AFB (or non-responsive bees!) and that even with robbing, as long as this practice is carried out, outbreaks of resistant AFB would eventually be confined. (I.e., the colonies of the robbers would also be burned as they weakened and were destroyed by the now alerted beekeeper.) Andy also wrote: "There may be other things at work with AFB which some have called a disease of the "hive bees" because it is seldom found in the escaped populations. Again this could be because of the good old survival of the fittest rule, but one would think after reading the popular science on the subject that if one hive in the wild went without treatment they all would soon have AFB disease or all would dead in a season or two." THis is a very interesting point. The one person I know who has done literally *hundreds* of feral removals (A.M. Buzas 1/800-47-STING) swears that he has never seen a feral colony with foulbrood. At first thought this makes sense: Who's going to call and pay you to remove a dying or dead colony? I.e., his data set is biased toward strong, unafflicted colonies, rather than weak/dead colonies. But when I've pressed him on this point he emphasizes that he's never seen even *one*. And it's true, I spent two summers working with him (we had NO business last summer!) and of the 30 or so I've removed with him, there was never any sign of ANY brood disease... You'd think that you'd get one or two once in a while... Unless the feral populations were (are) (there still are some out there) already somewhat resistant to brood diseases in general - which is as Andy says, what you'd expect from natural selection. Final point, since I'm not really sure where this leaves the question and hope that the group will continue to mull it over: If you assume that the feral colonies really did/do have some resistance to brood diseases, what are some likely mechanisms? The one difference that I noticed regularly was the heavier use of propolis. (You could argue that they may not actually use more propolis - they just never get the inside cavities scraped down - but I'll testify that the feral colonies that I have installed in regular deeps do use quite a bit more propolis than those descended from packages or breeder queens.) I seem to recall a post a number of months ago from someone in Arizona who said they were using propolis as an AFB preventative... I tried e-mailing them, but never got a response... Also, some strains of bees are apparently more resistant to some brood diseases than others. This has been known since at least 1915. (My 1915 edition of Philips' "Beekeeping" states that the Italian strain is "vastly superior" to the German black bee with respect to resistance to EFB.) Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:18:12 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Searching the Bee-L Listserver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all I've recently found out how to search the Bee-L Listserver for past messages, so I thought I would provide some examples in case anyone else wanted to do the same. All the information is contained in a file called Listserv Memo. This is makes the subject so unnecessarily difficult that it didn't actually explain to me how to perform a search. Instead I found that there is an entire list devoted to Listserv searches, which I suppose shows that they're not simple, and by looking through their logs I found some of the answers. The following examples must be typed as shown, not forgetting the hyphens at the end of some of the lines (this tells the Listserv that the following line is a continuation of the line on which the hyphen appears). Suppose you wanted a list of all messages (and a copy of them) that include the word 'Thatcherism'. Send the following to the Bee-L Listserv (). //SEARCH JOB ECHO=NO DATABASE SEARCH DD=RULES //Rules DD * SEARCH THATCHERISM IN BEE-L - SINCE 01-OCT-91 INDEX PRINT The 5th line is optional (but if you don't use it you must remove the hyphen on the previous line). If you want to search for all messages since 1 Oct 1991 posted by a particular sender - //SEARCH JOB ECHO=NO DATABASE SEARCH DD=RULES //Rules DD * SEARCH * IN BEE-L - WHERE SENDER CONTAINS (john.major) - SINCE 01-OCT-91 INDEX PRINT In order to retrieve messages by sender it is necessary to be accurate when specifying the name. The best way to do this is to send a single line message to containing the line GET BEE-L LIST. This will return a list of the names and addresses of all the list subscribers (apart from 2 who wish to remain anon.). I have found that using the address from the left margin as far as the '@' sign will do the trick. Make sure to use the SaMe CaSe. So it might be 'john.major', or if Tony Blair has a CompuServ address then '106123.1234' for example. So far this has worked fine for me. You could of course combine the 2 previous searches and find all posts by John Major which contain the text 'Thatcherism' //SEARCH JOB ECHO=NO DATABASE SEARCH DD=RULES //Rules DD * SEARCH THATCHERISM IN BEE-L - WHERE SENDER CONTAINS (john.major) - SINCE 01-OCT-91 INDEX PRINT If you want to search for posts that contain a particular word or words in the title - //SEARCH JOB ECHO=NO DATABASE SEARCH DD=RULES //Rules DD * SEARCH * IN BEE-L - WHERE SUBJECT CONTAINS (CASH FOR QUESTIONS) - SINCE 01-OCT-91 INDEX PRINT One last point, as far as I can make out, the Listserver will not respond with more than 2000 lines. So a number of requests would have to be made to obtain the full posts of some senders or about certain subjects. The easiest way to do this would be to split up the requests by date, instead of the SINCE line in the examples one could use - FROM 14 july TO oct 87. The following date/time examples are valid. SINCE 86 UNTIL 23-JUN-87 SINCE today 11:30 I hope that these examples are a bit easier to deal with than the Listserv Memo. I think the same person must have written the operating instructions for my video recorder. Best wishes Joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:46:05 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GAVIN JOHNSTON Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: AHB genes > When we talk ogf the Africanized Honey Bee (AHB bred in Brazil) we are not > taliking about the African Honey Bee. Admittedly I was thinking about the "pure" African Bee ( which is actually A.m. adansonii - A.m.scutellata is the transvaal Bee - although it does extend up the African Rift Valley) but the fact of the matter is that irrespective of what bees the Africans have been mixed with, there doesn't seem to be a "dilution" of their aggression. There seems to be a very dominant aggressive gene which is most often expressed in their phenotype. Maybe someone who knows more about honeybee genetics could shed some light on the possible dilution of this aggro gene. What is the honey production of the AHB's like in comparison to other strains. Cheers Gavin Johnston Bee Laboratory Rhodes University Grahamstown ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:28:57 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: TM resistence in Argentina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My thanks to Nick Wallingford for alzheimers relief. It was indeed an issue of Tom Sanford's APIS which contained the reference to TM resistence in Argentina, and the article also included timely discussion of concerns over importation and shipment of bee stock around the world, like say from China to Nicaragua, as was discussed rather heatedly in the past week or so. Excerpts are included here. Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues Volume 8, Number 6, June 1990 Copyright (c) 1990 M.T. Sanford "All Rights Reserved" STOCK INTRODUCTION INTO FLORIDA "... This concept (importations of honey bees) is debatable. An interesting situation has arisen in Argentina, presumably due to importation of a large quantity of queens from the U.S. American foulbrood, previously unknown in that country, is now epidemic. In addition, for some reason it doesn't appear to respond to treatment from Terramycin (R) at the same dosages used in the US. Levels of up to 1200 mg active material must be used as opposed to the 200 mg recommended in the U.S. This has proven disastrous for beekeeping in certain regions of the country. The reason the queens were brought to Argentina was simple economics -- they cost less to import because the value of the U.S. dollar was low. Al- though regulations exist in the country to prevent introduc- tion, this shipment was somehow cleared through customs. This Argentinian case and others (many previously believed that introduction of tracheal mites into the U.S. was not a serious threat to bee colonies) reveal why there has and will continue to be controversy over importation. Although most persons agree that stock introduction is needed in some cases, there is a great deal of concern about the methods involved. Unfortunately, no guidelines exist ... (and) there continues to be no standard importation criteria that can be followed for subsequent introductions...." Aaron Morris - I think, but don't remember well. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:44:00 SAT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jorge Contador Subject: BEE VENOM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" THIS IS JORGE CONTADOR OF CHILE I NEED TO KNOW HOW MUCH IS 1 gr. OF BEE VENOM. WHERE CAN I BUY BEE VENOM ? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:31:36 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steven Albritton Subject: Re: Federal Funds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What's the problem with him agreeing that I deserved a simple civil answer to my orginal question. You were extremely rude to me and now you want to get upset when someone agrees that you were rude. Why don't you learn to answer the question when you have a valid knowledge and the rest of the time just sit back and relax until someone asks a question that's in your area of expertiese. I am a beginning beekeeper in Louisiana. I also pay taxes just like you and probally just like everyone else on this list. If you want to debate taxes and politics we can go to another news group. However, when I am reading this list I am looking for information and how to tips that will help me gain experience in a very short time. As for complaining about Dr Skinner being on the internet, I wish they were more visible so I could ask questions, especally in my state. This is a great tool if everyone will use it correctly. At 10:15 PM 11/4/96 -0500, you wrote: >Dr. Skinner, > > I am upset over this insult to me you sent over the B-LISt. I am a >taxpayer of this State and I attended your hobbist course you >conducted in Memphis earlier this year. If you had a beef with me >you should have E-mailed me directly instead of tring to humilate me >publicly. Need I remind you that you are a public employee of this >state. You may hide behind UT but my tax money pays your salary. >You ccan take this any way you want, but I want an apology. If you >do not I will be forced to complain to the state over your use of a >taxpayer funded computer system to insult a taxpayer. > >Bill Hughes >Bent Holly Honey Farms >Brighton, TN >250 Leonard Lane > >>>Good Job Marcia > >John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall >Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee >jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 > > >On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Marcia Sinclair wrote: ><< >> This message is one of many rude responses to a simple question. >Steven >> tossed out an idea and deserves a reasonable response, not >political >> ranting. Please, folks, back off. We are cheering for Cherios, >hoping for >> federal funding for research, so why is it so outrageous to >consider >> assistance to beekeepers? Farmers and ranchers have been subsidized >for >> years. In the midst of a crisis in pollinators in this country, >Steve's >> concept deserves consideration. I'd rather have my tax dollars go >toward >> beekeeping than bombers. Whether you agree, disagree or want to >ponder it, >> at least keep the dialogue more civil. >> >> >> >> At 05:36 PM 10/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >> >> With all the problems of low bee populations, I wonder if the >> >Federal Gov. >> >has any programs to help beginning beekeepers. I started with >two >> >hives this >> >year and plan to expand next year. This can be expensive and will >be >> >done >> >slowly unless there is some type of program available. >> >Steven Albritton >> >LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms >> >Monroe, Louisiana> >> > >> >The above message states the main problem we have and that is >people >> >looking to the all mighty Federal Gov. to solve all of our >problems. >> >I started out a couple of years ago with just 7 hives and have >built >> >that number up to 50. I did not run to the Feds with my hand out >to >> >take other peoples money to spend. If you want to be a producer >then >> >PRODUCE. >> > >> >Bill Hughes >> >Bent Holly Honey Farms >> >Brighton, TN USA >> > >> > >> Marcia Sinclair >> Writer & Editor >> Gresham, Oregon >> wordland@mail.aracnet.com >> > > Steven Albritton LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms Monroe, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:01:13 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: HRHYDE Organization: Government of Prince Edward Island Subject: Re: combining hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had tops blow off hives in winter storms in past years and I only replaced the covers with a heavier weight. It didn't seem to cause much problem as these hives come through the winter as well as the rest. The storms seemed to be associated with wind and rain and really gave them a good drenching. Usually the rain ends in snow and cold weather. I am in Eastern Canada -- PEI. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 02:51:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: GM Puff Puff on the Honeybees...! My apologies to those who are less then entertained by my efforts, the devil makes me do it. ttul Andy- ---------------------------------------- PUFF, PUFF on the Beekeeper and His Bees, but NOT TO WORRY Betty Crocker is coming to the rescue according to San Francisco newspapers reports of November 3, 1996. As General Mills reduces the amount of honey they purchase annually to add to their many products advertised as containing HONEY by millions of dollars they are puffing a cut out contest giving 25 cents for each bee cut from the HONEY NUT CHEERIOS box to bee science, limited to up to $100,000., a impressive amount until you consider it will go to 3 institutions and require the purchases of 400,000 boxes of Honey Nut Cheerios by Jan 31, 1997 and the postage to send them in. Heck, I am only on my 2nd box and my blood pressure has risen maybe because of all the salt in this product, (or its promotion). Honey Nut Cheerios would do better as a bar nut replacement then a kids breakfast food but it may be far more expensive then nuts. And for my cat, I am not sure but he may have to go to the vet as he has been acting strange and may have impacted intestines or something. He has been aiding me by consuming as much of the product as I can force on him which looks to him like the real thing, expensive cat food anyway. God knows that I have poked fun at those who like PAN from our hispanic community but how anyone can eat these so called manufactured food products in their slick boxes and with the advertising bidets that would get Punchus Pilot easily elected president is more reflective of a sick society then the few cents worth of grain they contain. And to think this all revolved from a crank doctors idea that pre adolescent boys would not play with themselves in bed at night if they had whole grain dry cereal for breakfast. HA, Ha..it didn't work for me near as well as the boxing gloves I wore to bed. According to a wire report from Scripps-Mcclatchy News Service, written by Pam Slater, published 11/3/96 in the San Francisco newspapers, headlined, THREAT TO HONEYBEES IMPERILS AGRICULTURE, and TWO KINDS OF MITES KILLING OFF CALIFORNIA POLLINATORS...these well know bee pests have already "killed nearly all of the country's wild honeybees and more than 60 percent of commercial bees." PUFF, PUFF this time on the wild weed...maybee legal to grow in California by the time you all read this! Projected "annual losses to the American economy could run as high as $5.7 billion" so the experts say. One of these being UC-Davis honey bee expert Dr. Eric Mussen who goes on to lament, "We've never had anything before that eliminated bees like this. Right now, probably 90 percent or more of the wild honeybees are gone." (This is not to say they have not tried, with pesticides, and this from the Dr. Mussen who provided the sworn expert bee science, (BS), testimony to the courts, that caused many hives to be killed and put some good long time family beekeepers out of business because of a California quarantine he supported, but then he had nothing to lose.) According to high officials of GM, Inc., The money raised will go towards research to eradicate the mites. I would guess the honey producers themselves could have provided this much money and more but for the dramatic reduction of honey used by GM down from 6 million pounds to less then 2 million pounds, maybe they figured we beekeepers could use the help...Mussen also says "that the loss in California has not been as bad because we have so many commercial beekeepers and use pesticides to kill the mites. But not so for the Northeast where millions of wild honeybees are now dead." Very perceptive from the UC Davis, California Extension Beekeeper who would have a hard time getting money to even go to a state line beekeepers meeting if it was held on the other side of the line. Pass the hat around again boys another one of those who can't live on his Dr's wages and spare a little of his own money for a day or two with the industry who he is supposed to be part of...without any personal sacrifice I guess is the rule. The article goes on to quote Steve Easter, my own one time almond field representative from the Almond Growers marketing CoOp who made it to the top as president, and he should know better, he tells how the 7,000 almond farmers in California have paid $2 million more last year for bees to pollinate their crops which have not been effected in size by the mites to date. I challenge anyone who can show me that paying more for bees because of the lack of them would bring the dead one's back to life, other then on paper...anyway this is only one of dozen's of stories that have been put on the wire in response to, or PUFFing the General Mills press release on "Saving the Bees". Enjoy your HONEY NUT CHEERIOS, ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Oh, no! Not ANOTHER learning experience! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:12:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: FEED BACK _____ _ _ _ | ___|__ ___ __| | |__ __ _ ___| | __ on previous posts | |_ / _ \/ _ \/ _` | '_ \ / _` |/ __| |/ / "China Gate" | _| __/ __/ (_| | |_) | (_| | (__| < "Save Our Bees" |_| \___|\___|\__,_|_.__/ \__,_|\___|_|\_\ When the OLd Drone posts his stingers it is always a mixture of personal experience, opinions and facts. Facts are not always easy to get these days as they seem to change from hour to hour. If any of you have watched the news wire services now available on the internet you know what I mean. All this makes it more important to have some background sources of information and more time then not these sources do not want to be quoted. I appreciate those in the beekeeping industry who have tried to help me keep the facts straight via e-mail and phone calls. So now I post a tad of the information from feedback and some new thoughts gleaned from what some would call deep background from within the honey industry and the regulators that serve it. As beekeepers in North America celibate the past year at the many winter beekeeping conventions going on even as you read this other US beekeeper representatives will be in Washington, DC to meet with high officials in the Commerce Department and other departments of government. One hot topic for the beekeepers who have spent more the $300,000. for professional help to level the playing field between China who was dumping honey into the US market at less then the real value. The beekeepers made their case with the trade commissioners and sanctions were imposed on the amount of honey that China could ship to the US. This has since expired and all seems well with those who paid the high cost for what should have been FREE service of their government were satisfied as they had seen a substantial increase in the price of honey along with the decrease in China honey imports, or so they thought... The facts are turning out to bee a lot different then what we all thought we were seeing thanks to a few importer/exporters who worked fast to circumvent the laws of the US and this has been under active investigation for almost a year by the Commerce Department and others. Some of the details of my own investigations: 1..The US Embargo on Chinese Honey was a failure because of several Canadian importer/exporters who may have actually sent more honey from China to the US then the amount embargoed by the US Chinese Honey Embargo. 2..If the price of the Honey increased it was NOT because of the embargo on honey from China and was due to a increased demand in the world for honey, including in some countries that have been considered exporting producers and some short falls in production. 3..The funds that the two US National Beekeeper originations collected from their memberships and spent, big bucks for such a small industry, and they spent more then they collected, was made into a waste because of the smarter Canadian importer/exporters who circumvented the embargo. The industry should investigate seeking relief from those involved in Canada and other places if any convictions result from the on going investigations for the payback of the $300,000. spent by the bee industry. 4..The United States Department of Commerce in its international trade activities has been made to look very impotent because of the activities of a few importers/exporters of honey, and for a year has been actively investigating all Canadian exports to the US and may be preparing to take some sort of action directed towards the individuals involved. 5..The US Beekeeping Industry will have representatives in Washington this week to meet with high level Commerce Department Officials and all continue to recognize the close, historical, and special ties between the US and Canadian beekeepers and are not involved in any Canadian bashing efforts at all. Interested beekeepers on both sides of the boarder should be concerned and discuss these events in their meetings and conventions. 6..There may be some legal action on the US packer/importer/exporter level that could be taken because some US parkers have been damaged by the loss of business to the China Connection Honey from Canada. 7..All the facts are not in and I have yet to find out if Canadian Honey from China has entered the US in consumer size containers..But for sure some of the honey that is sold in Canada to Canadians as Pure Canadian Honey may be in no small part honey from China. On the GM not General Motors "save the bee campaign" I reported not finding any "tie in" promotions between the honey industry and GM. Since then I have found out that within this food giant that uses the good name of HONEY to enhance the value of the products they will be using much less pure Honey in the future. I also found out there is little coordination or tie in's between their own advertising and promotion department and the product purchasing department that buys the honey used by the company. I am told that their honey purchases are dropping from more then 5 million pounds of a few years ago to a threatened 2 million or less pounds in the next year. This may be because the management blames the honey producers for inflating the price of honey, and honey is not considered a "essential" ingredient in their products such as "Honey Nut Cheerios". No wonder the amount of honey in each box of cereal is a propitiatory secret as it may have already been dramatically reduced at a cost to the beekeeping industry in a much larger dollar amount then if we all were able to eat the 400,000 boxes of Honey Nut Cherrios and paid the postage to send in the bees cut from the box and get the $100,000 prize for beekeeping research. This all smells like the frozen HONEY CROSS BUNS sold nationally that contained NO Honey, and when the food conglomerate was asked about this false labeling practice they said the purchaser could add the honey when they consumed the product. There was nothing on the package that indicated that they should do that. Happy Election Day, Vote Early, Vote Often! Enough for now, ttul the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ I Love HONEY! I Love HONEY! I Love HONEY! I Love U HONEY! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:32:32 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Betty Crocker "Save our bees" In-Reply-To: <961103211048_222129558@emout02.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Brian R Tucker wrote: > Just was woondering why don't we all just donate the 32cents we would spend > on a stamp instead of spending the money for the cherios and 32cents for them > to donate 25cents. > Hi Thats a great Idea. Roy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:02:07 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin D. Parsons" <102372.624@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Federal Funds > What's the problem with him agreeing that I deserved a simple civil answer > to my orginal question. You were extremely rude to me and now you want to > get upset when someone agrees that you were rude. Why don't you learn to > answer the question when you have a valid knowledge and the rest of the time > just sit back and relax until someone asks a question that's in your area of > expertiese. You want a simple civil answer? Not all questions have simple or civil answers. What if I were to pose this question to the list: "I want a hive of bees. My neighbour has lots. What is a good way to steal one of his?" I doubt if that would get any "simple civil" answers. And rightly so!!! I consider your original question to be on the same moral level as my example above. So I gave a "rude" response. You and some others considered it a fair question. Fine. If we all agreed on everything this would be one dull list! All this talk about simple answers brings to mind Abraham Lincoln's question: "Are you still beating your wife?" Come on, simple answer, yes or no. Kevin D. Parsons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:34:49 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steven Albritton Subject: Re: Federal Funds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If Mr. Parsons does see any difference in my orginal question and his hypo question about stealling, then I understand why this country has so many problems. At 12:02 PM 11/5/96 EST, you wrote: >> What's the problem with him agreeing that I deserved a simple civil answer >> to my orginal question. You were extremely rude to me and now you want to >> get upset when someone agrees that you were rude. Why don't you learn to >> answer the question when you have a valid knowledge and the rest of the time >> just sit back and relax until someone asks a question that's in your area of >> expertiese. > >You want a simple civil answer? Not all questions have simple or civil answers. >What if I were to pose this question to the list: > >"I want a hive of bees. My neighbour has lots. What is a good way to steal one >of his?" > >I doubt if that would get any "simple civil" answers. And rightly so!!! I >consider your >original question to be on the same moral level as my example above. So I gave a >"rude" response. You and some others considered it a fair question. Fine. If we >all >agreed on everything this would be one dull list! > >All this talk about simple answers brings to mind Abraham Lincoln's question: >"Are you still beating your wife?" Come on, simple answer, yes or no. > >Kevin D. Parsons > > Steven Albritton LDS Communications, Sports America, Chavin Honey Farms Monroe, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:34:44 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Tastes Great! Less Filling! Tastes Great! Less Filling! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Steve and Kevin, This is a free country where everyone is entitled to do and think as they please as long as no one violates anyone else's rights. Steve has the right to ask questions as he did, Kevin has the right to react as he did. Kevin didn't like Steve's question. So be it, that's his right. Steve didn't like Kevin's response. So be it, that's his right. Uninvolved subscribers have seen that there are those who come down on both sides of this issue. So be it, that's their right. Today is election day, shall we have a vote? Demanding a public apology with the threat of telling the net police is an action worthy of a child crying, "I'm tellin' mommy!". In the words of that wise old man Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?". And this whole tirade, although childishly amusing, no longer has anything to do with bees or bee biology, so kindly take it off list. Please, no responses to this post either. If it ain't bees, I don't care one way or another. Vote early, vote often and everyone send another box of Honey Nut Cheerios to Andy! /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: processing propolis REGARDING RE>processing propolis H. Sweet wrote: >I have heard that BEEHIVE BOTANICALS will buy your dirty propolis, process it and give you 6 bucks per pound. There is even a propolis trap ( kind of like a plastic q. excluder ) that you put under the top board. The bees pack it with propolis, you take it out and put it in your freezer until hard, then twist it a little to break off the propolis.< I don't know if Beehive Botanicals will actually buy "dirty" propolis, but they do advertise that they'll buy hive scrapings. However, I'm sure that the best prices would be paid for clean propolis, and I would like to add a word of support to the use of propolis "traps". These can be bought at many American bee supply houses (Betterbee, Inc., for one), and they work great. However, if left in place for the summer, they often sag onto the top bars of the highest super and in a good honey flow get burr comb attached to them. So in some cases there is a bit of beeswax with the propolis. But the propolis is first rate, and when frozen, very easy to harvest from the plastic screens in the manner reported above. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:14:38 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: International Bee Research Subject: Urgent reqquest for info Content-Type: text URGENT REQUEST FOR BACKGROUND INFORMATION IBRA is looking for evidence of reduced fruit yields attributable to reduced levels of pollination. Can you help or do you know of someone who has suffereed from this problem? ************************************************************** * International Bee Research Association * * Please state who your message is for at IBRA * *============================================================* * E.mail : ibra@cardiff.ac.uk | Mail: IBRA * * Phone : (+44) 1222 372 409 | 18 North Road * * Fax : (+44) 1222 665 522 | Cardiff CF1 3DY, UK * ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:22:55 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: antibiotic resistant AFB In-Reply-To: <199611050909.EAA20761@dolphin.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Missed the start but its nice to see such considered prose, so I'd like to join in ! In message <199611050909.EAA20761@dolphin.upenn.edu>, David J Trickett writes >Thanks to all who responded with comments or citations regarding my query on >whether or not resistance to TM by AFB has been detected or is developing >(or is likely to develop)..... > In other words, quick drastic treatment >preventing spread of the spores and resulting in destruction of the >strain could be the reason we aren't seeing resistance. I think this is true but there are two other things to consider as well. First, AFB might not need a mechanism for evolving resistance because its survival strategy is different. The spores just wait 150 years or so for more favorable conditions to prevail. For example, suppose the bacteria are *growing* and not (sexually) reproducing, they will not become 'resistant' will they ? Second, we must remember that the spore is not spread quite as easily as you might think, robbing bees are adults and not directly involved in feeding brood and the nurse bees only incidentally feed spores to suseptable brood, (brood food being secreted). You need a fair number of spores to be present before the disease is expressed. All in all, the conditions for the population developing resistance are not as favorable as you might think. Varroa on the other hand......... > > My understanding is that it is >never the case that AFB is removed by TM, so continuous, vs. one-time >treatment should not make any difference in terms of producing a >resistant strain. This may not be true, and depends of course on the type of reproduction. Resistance (as opposed to tolerance) appears in a population because some of its members, by chance, have that characteristic. If we select only those we may create a resistant population. It will depend on the dominance or otherwise of the resistant gene but a one-time treatment can allow the non-resistant gene to distribute itself again and render the population vunerable. > >Andy also wrote: > >"There may be other things at work with AFB which some have called a >disease of the "hive bees" because it is seldom found in the escaped >populations. Again this could be because of the good old survival of the >fittest rule Maybe but. Its the disease of the hive bees because it is only in beehives that the comb is not continually consumed and the spores eliminated. The wax moth is the bee's friend (not the beekeepers). > >THis is a very interesting point. The one person I know who has done >literally *hundreds* of feral removals (A.M. Buzas 1/800-47-STING) swears >that he has never seen a feral colony with foulbrood. I canot claim this, but I *know* feral colonies here have (did have) foul brood (Thankyou Varroa !!, every cloud..). I think whether you see it is a function of when and how you look. > Unless the feral populations were (are) (there still are some >out there) already somewhat resistant to brood diseases in general >- which is as Andy says, what you'd expect from natural selection. Well, not in my opinion, see my earlier comments ! > > Also, some strains of bees are apparently more resistant to >some brood diseases than others. This has been known since at least 1915. >(My 1915 edition of Philips' "Beekeeping" states that the Italian strain >is "vastly superior" to the German black bee with respect to resistance >to EFB.) "Apparently" yes, but really, no. We didn't know anything in 1915 he said with a smile. (See :-), and we don't know much more now ). And its not fair you bringing up EFB at this point. The two diseases are so different you should create another thread. :-) Regards -- Dave Black Blacks Bee Gardens, Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:41:43 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: processing propolis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In article , "M.Westby (Max Westby)" writes >Dear bee people > >Greetings from Sheffield. Has somebody out there got a method for >separating propolis from the bits of wood, bee and wax from my hive >scrapings? I now have about 2 kg of the stuff and want to start doing >something with it... > >Cheers, Max > > > (\ >---------------------------------------------------{|||8------- >Dr G W Max Westby (/ >Dept of Psychology >University of Sheffield, SHEFFIELD S10 2TN, England. > >Phone (Dept): +44 (0)114 276 8555 Extension 6549 >Phone (Dept): +44 (0)114 282 6549 (direct line) >Phone (Home): +44 (0)114 236 1038 >Fax: +44 (0)114 276 6515 >E-mail: m.westby@sheffield.ac.uk >Web Site: http://www.shef.ac.uk/psychology/westby/ >--------------------------------------------------------------- Max, I have no idea how to process propolis (does anyone out there know?) but you might be able to sell it. If you look in the back of your November issue of "Bee Craft", you will find an advertisement from a company called "Bee Well Products Ltd" who want to buy propolis scrapings. If you decide to sell it, give them a call. The address is: Bee Well Products Ltd., Laurel Cottage Apiaries, Chesterfield, S42 6QQ Tel. (01246) 220130 Fax. (01246) 208810 I have never had any dealings with them so I cannot comment on what they might offer you. I hope that this helps. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:08:25 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: combining hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Duane Bajema wrote: ... >I have joined a queenless colony with a queenright colony many times >using the newspaper method, but I have never joined two queenright >colonies at this late time of the year. > >Suggestions? I think the suggestion of overwintering as a nuc over a screened colony is not a bad one, but I must admit that about a month ago I did unite some weak colonies myself using newspaper. HOWEVER, I would like to tell you a curious observation made by another beekeeper here in Prince Edward Island who did this a few years ago. The queens had already quit laying for the winter and the colonies seemed to unite fine. However when the queens started to lay again their very first eggs in February, he had one or two colonies that threw a swarm! Imagine, a swarm in February! Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have heard that BEEHIVE BOTANICALS will buy your dirty >propolis, process it and give you 6 bucks per pound. There is >even a propolis trap .... Hi H. Sweet: (a first name would be nice, we're fairly informal :) ) Do you have an address for this company? I thought that hive scrapings were unacceptable for propolis sale. I wonder what method they use to separate the propolis. I have been keeping my cover scrapings and any big lumps of pure propolis separate as I find it a wonderful cure for sore throat. The beekeeper from Surinam who visited me used propolis mats under his covers and sold propolis to a Dutch pharmaceutical company for $15 a pound. Their beekeeper's coop also makes a tincture of propolis (15%) that they market locally. Regards, Stan in Prince Edward Island ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:54:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "William Nelson@Aol.Com" Subject: Re: Urgent reqquest for info Might talk with the Michigan Dept of Agriculture or Michigan State University Ag School Pomologists or fruit specialist or the Michigan Apiary Inspector. Unfortunately I don't have address or phone numbers. Michigan State and Michigan Capital are at Lansing. Good Luck. I've heard rumors of same but no proof Bill Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:47:15 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: Betty Crocker "Save our bees" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Just was woondering why don't we all just donate the 32cents we would spend >on a stamp instead of spending the money for the cherios and 32cents for them >to donate 25cents. Not a bad idea - I'd thought of that myself and then realized that it would still take a 32cent stamp to send 32cents and therefore cost 64cents. Of course the post office would be getting a smaller percentage if you sent 32cents rather than a bee worth 28cents. Then again, you could send more and further reduce the post office's percentage while giving bee research a bigger boost. Whatever. I think that it's cool that someone besides beekeepers is trying to save the bees. We all ought to think of some sceme to raise more money for the needed research. Gov't imput can't be counted on. Andy, have you tried mulching the garden with honey -nut-cheerios? (My cat suggested it.) Ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:31:05 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Battistolo Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Stan, To separate propolis from wax and wood splinters,I put everything in a container,fill it up with water,anything that float is not propolis. Regards Frank. >>I have heard that BEEHIVE BOTANICALS will buy your dirty >>propolis, process it and give you 6 bucks per pound. There is >>even a propolis trap .... > >Hi H. Sweet: (a first name would be nice, we're fairly informal :) ) > >Do you have an address for this company? I thought that hive scrapings were >unacceptable for propolis sale. I wonder what method they use to separate >the propolis. I have been keeping my cover scrapings and any big lumps of >pure propolis separate as I find it a wonderful cure for sore throat. The >beekeeper from Surinam who visited me used propolis mats under his covers >and sold propolis to a Dutch pharmaceutical company for $15 a pound. Their >beekeeper's coop also makes a tincture of propolis (15%) that they market >locally. > >Regards, Stan in Prince Edward Island > frankb@cyberstore.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:20:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: H K Johnson Subject: Re: Urgent reqquest for info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit International Bee Research wrote: > > URGENT REQUEST FOR BACKGROUND INFORMATION > > IBRA is looking for evidence of reduced fruit yields attributable to > reduced levels of pollination. Can you help or do you know of someone > who has suffereed from this problem? > > ************************************************************** > * International Bee Research Association * > * Please state who your message is for at IBRA * > *============================================================* > * E.mail : ibra@cardiff.ac.uk | Mail: IBRA * > * Phone : (+44) 1222 372 409 | 18 North Road * > * Fax : (+44) 1222 665 522 | Cardiff CF1 3DY, UK * > **************************************************************Harnett County North Carolina, North of Lillington Last summers watermelon crop devastated by lack of bees. Vines grew very well but fruit was rare. Fruit that did grow had no flavor. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:18:58 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: Open Feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >After feeding each hive this fall I concerning open feeding next this >spring to cut down on my work load. I would like some feed back on >the pros and cons of this feeding method. > >Bill Hughes >Bent Holly Honey Farm >Brighton, TN USA Quick answers IMHO: PRO: 1) expedient CON: 1) the strong get stronger and the weak stay that way 2)spreads diseases, mites, etc. 3)causes robbing 4)invites preditors hope that helps to talk you out of it, regards, Ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:19:04 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: antibiotic resistant AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >THis is a very interesting point. The one person I know who has done >literally *hundreds* of feral removals (A.M. Buzas 1/800-47-STING) swears >that he has never seen a feral colony with foulbrood. At first thought >this makes sense: Who's going to call and pay you to remove a dying or >dead colony? I.e., his data set is biased toward strong, unafflicted >colonies, rather than weak/dead colonies. But when I've pressed him on this >point he emphasizes that he's never seen even *one*. And it's true, I >spent two summers working with him (we had NO business last summer!) and >of the 30 or so I've removed with him, there was never any sign of ANY >brood disease... You'd think that you'd get one or two once in a >while... Unless the feral populations were (are) (there still are some >out there) already somewhat resistant to brood diseases in general >- which is as Andy says, what you'd expect from natural selection. > >Final point, since I'm not really sure where this leaves the question and >hope that the group will continue to mull it over: If you assume that the >feral colonies really did/do have some resistance to brood diseases, what >are some likely mechanisms? The one difference that I noticed regularly >was the heavier use of propolis. (You could argue that they may not >actually use more propolis - they just never get the inside cavities >scraped down - but I'll testify that the feral colonies that I have >installed in regular deeps do use quite a bit more propolis than those >descended from packages or breeder queens.) I seem to recall a post a >number of months ago from someone in Arizona who said they were using >propolis as an AFB preventative... I tried e-mailing them, but never got >a response... Also, some strains of bees are apparently more resistant to >some brood diseases than others. This has been known since at least 1915. >(My 1915 edition of Philips' "Beekeeping" states that the Italian strain >is "vastly superior" to the German black bee with respect to resistance >to EFB.) > >Dave T. Not often but years ago, I did see several feral colonies with AFB. Ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:52:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Re: Urgent reqquest for info One gentleman in my area who grows pumpkins for sale in the Fall contacted me because his yield has dropped 84% in the last two years due to the lack of pollination. Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm Brighton, TN USA >> URGENT REQUEST FOR BACKGROUND INFORMATION IBRA is looking for evidence of reduced fruit yields attributable to reduced levels of pollination. Can you help or do you know of someone who has suffereed from this problem? ************************************************************** * International Bee Research Association * * Please state who your message is for at IBRA * *============================================================* * E.mail : ibra@cardiff.ac.uk | Mail: IBRA * * Phone : (+44) 1222 372 409 | 18 North Road * * Fax : (+44) 1222 665 522 | Cardiff CF1 3DY, UK * ************************************************************** << ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:57:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: combining hives In a message dated 96-11-04 23:02:31 EST, sholisky@winternet.com (SHolisky) writes: << Hi Duane, I'd treat them like a nuc that I wanted to winter over. Put a division screen above a strong hive, put the small unit above that. It should be heavy with stores and a fair spot for them to cluster. ( oh yes, wrap em' and a moisture board helps too! You never know how brutal the winter maybe ) There you have my "secret" for wintering over nucs. :) >> No secret really, Scott, though a good method. I did not know it could succeed as far north as you are, though. One caveat for beginners. Place the weak hive (or nuc) over a strong hive on a double screen, as Scott says, but do not place the upper entrance over the lower. Place it on the opposite side. There will be a bit of drift upward from the strong hive on the bottom, whenever they can fly, but with the upper entrance directly above the lower, you risk having too much drift, eventually killing the lower. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:58:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: Federal Funds Comments: To: NHJV32A@prodigy.com From: NHJV32A@prodigy.com (MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR.) << Dr. Skinner, I am upset over this insult to me you sent over the B-LISt. I am a taxpayer of this State and I attended your hobbist course you conducted in Memphis earlier this year. If you had a beef with me you should have E-mailed me directly instead of tring to humilate me publicly. Need I remind you that you are a public employee of this state. You may hide behind UT but my tax money pays your salary. You ccan take this any way you want, but I want an apology. If you do not I will be forced to complain to the state over your use of a taxpayer funded computer system to insult a taxpayer. >> Relax, Bill. You said your piece, he said his. Both of you have a right to free speech -- Fifth Ammendment, Right? I didn't consider you "humiliated," when I read Dr. Skinner's piece. Just a difference of opinion. Just words. I've been slapped around a lot worse than that. I survived. Some would find beekeepers "rugged individualists." Others would say "opinionated SOB's" I'm pleased to wear both labels. I'd encourage you to let it go. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 22:07:28 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Insulation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I posted a design for an inner cover to handle this problem. Place an >enpty super on top of the inner cove and fill with insulation. Restrict >the bottom opening to about 2 inches wide. Duct tape all cracks between >supers ,etc. Depending on the type of winter such as how long a period of >cold lasts each week or so , before it warms back up to about freezing. >The key temp inside the hive is 40 degrees. You may insulate around the >entire hive. Many things work , styrofoam insulated board sems good for >now, leave the openings open. The bees will need to raise the humidity in >the hive when they begin to raise brood again, so try to give themthin >syrup (more water than sugar) because they need the water. You may only >get a day ore 2 that the water ont freeze. But if you ues the inner cover >I posted you can put a feed can in and wrap with inslation and the feed >will stay liquid a lot longer. Jerry Fries Dear Bee-listers... >Well, its that time of year. And since all my bees died last winter I >thought I might ask the lists what the best way to insulate their hives >for the winter, since this may have been my problem. >What I was planning to do was place an empty super over (or under?) the >inner cover and fill it with something....maybe straw?....Well.that is >what I would like to know. I know they need ventilation during the >winter to get rid of moisture, and I just popped an outer cover and there >is already drops of water on the inner cover.... >Any help would be most appreciated..: >Ian > > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > @ Ian Watson @ > @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ > @ @ > @ THREE BEES: @ > @ Bach singer ,/// @ > @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ > @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ > @ @ > @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ > @ St. Catharines, Canada @ > @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 07:33:07 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:51 PM 11/5/96 +0000, you wrote: > REGARDING RE>processing propolis > >I don't know if Beehive Botanicals will actually buy "dirty" propolis, but >they do advertise that they'll buy hive scrapings. However, I'm sure that the >best prices would be paid for clean propolis, and I would like to add a word >of support to the use of propolis "traps". These can be bought at many >American bee supply houses (Betterbee, Inc., for one), and they work great. >However, if left in place for the summer, they often sag onto the top bars of >the highest super and in a good honey flow get burr comb attached to them. So >in some cases there is a bit of beeswax with the propolis. But the propolis >is first rate, and when frozen, very easy to harvest from the plastic screens >in the manner reported above. > *** For what purposes do you use your propolis? *** >Do you have an address for this company? I thought that hive scrapings were >unacceptable for propolis sale. I wonder what method they use to separate >the propolis. I have been keeping my cover scrapings and any big lumps of >pure propolis separate as I find it a wonderful cure for sore throat. The >beekeeper from Surinam who visited me used propolis mats under his covers >and sold propolis to a Dutch pharmaceutical company for $15 a pound. Their >beekeeper's coop also makes a tincture of propolis (15%) that they market >locally. >Regards, Stan in Prince Edward Island > **** How do you use your propolis for sore throats? What recipe do you use for the tincture and for what purposes would people buy the tincture (and how would they use it)? Are there some good sources to understand the various uses and preparations of propolis? *** Rick Grossman Oregon, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:11:32 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Brother Adam... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I had a call from a NZ bkpr this evening who is writing some things about Brother Adam for a local newspaper. I told him I'd get *at a minimum* birth place and date and death place and date. Could someone on the list who stored it resend to me direct (so as not to take up the bandwidth for the list...) a copy of transcript of the interview with Eva Crane? I did listen to the real audio Nat Pub Radio interview and found it very interesting. I recall someone on the list transcribed it, and I hope someone can send me a copy so I can fax it to him (to really impress him!) tomorrow AM. I can't seem to find any hits with the various searches I've done on the web on Brother Adam. Am I missing any significant info on the WWW that you can point me to? Thanks as always... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:09:20 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: The Next Step??? (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >...Having enjoyed immensely being a part of this list, I suddenly had an >idea. I thought it would be "neat" to converse more directly. And the >obvious forum would be a "Talker" or a "MOO". ... Hi Ian: I thought it was a great idea, but unfortunately some of us are sleeping while you guys in the American continent are awake... or viceversa. Got to go... the possum in the microwave for afternoon tea is ready. ****************************************************************** --_|\ / *\ Greetings from Brisbane \_.--._/ Mauricio :) v ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:56:14 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Re: Betty Crocker "Save our bees" How about we get Rush (need I type a last name) Limbaugh (my appologies to the non-American audiance) behind the idea and have a bake sale! .....he typed while smiling fiendishly; awaiting all the partisan screaming, bickering, and yelling that has permiated the list in recent times; then realizing how much he HATES all the screaming, bickering, and yelling, reconsidering and saying ---just a joke---also noting how he has completely butchered the English language.... Delete? Yes, I think so! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:39:31 GMT+2 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dawid Swart Organization: NIPB Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 The secret of smoke is to choose a feul that is not to hot. Bees are fragile and their wings can be singed with hot smoke. Pumping the bellows to excessively or pressing the nozzle into the hive opening will certainly increase the chances of singing the bees. A little smoke can go a long way. When I know that a colony is weak I use very little smoke. With a stong colony I use more smoke and wait a bit longer before opening the hive. In the confines and darkness of a hive bees will react the same to smoke as long as the whole swarm smell that smoke. If one thinks how good a bees' sense of smell is developed then it is understandable that excessive smoke isn't required. I use pine needles, cow- or horse dung and sometimes even dried grass or Blue-gum leaves. Last night I helped a friend of mine to move some colonies and he used rhinoceros dung which he picked up on a game ranch. I was pleasently surprised to see how well it lit, and the smoke were cool and lasted long. Dawid Swart ARC-PLANT PROTECTION RESEARCH INSTITUTE P/Bag x134 Pretoria 0001 South Africa E-Mail PPRIDS@PLANT4.AGRIC.ZA FAX (27)(12) 323-5275 TEL (27)(12) 319-7148 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:55:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Sturman Subject: Bee venom and other products Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 Jorge Contador wrote: | THIS IS JORGE CONTADOR OF CHILE | I NEED TO KNOW HOW MUCH IS 1 gr. OF BEE VENOM. | WHERE CAN I BUY BEE VENOM ? What can you do with bee venom? Please keep us informed of your progress. I have been reading about the various uses of other bee products but I have never heard of anyone looking for be venom. Does anyone know the use of that? While we're on the subject, someone I know from California told me that propolis has amazing healing properties. What are your experiences using and harvesting propolis and other bee products (other than honey)? I have two hives in the Catskills that are doing fine. While I will start harvesting honey next flow, I would like to maybe consider propolis as well. Is it going to be too much work for the girls, gathering nectar and pollen, and then filling in the apparently unending gaps in the hive? Best regards to all, and thank you for my continuing, daily education on bees, beekeeping, and beekeepers. After reading this list for several months, I am glad to count myself as a member of this profession. John Sturman The Bee Inn at The Blue Moon Farm Lexington, NY john@sturman.com "... With all this horse manure, there's got to be a pony in here." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:38:31 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Stan on Price Edward Island wrote: > I wonder what method they use to separate >the propolis. I have been keeping my cover scrapings and any big lumps of >pure propolis separate as I find it a wonderful cure for sore throat. The >beekeeper from Surinam who visited me used propolis mats under his covers >and sold propolis to a Dutch pharmaceutical company for $15 a pound. Their >beekeeper's coop also makes a tincture of propolis (15%) that they market >locally. Some time ago I posted a message on this network to the effect that propolis dissolves very well in ethyl alcohol (ethanol). In the United States we have a hard time finding an inexpensive source of ethanol (the taxes are high), but people in some other countries have no such trouble. Be careful, though; 100% ethanol in the U.S. is poisonous (a processing problem), but 95% (190 proof) or lower will not be if they are not "denatured" (also a poisonous liquid, due to an addition of a substance to discourage one from drinking it). Vodka perhaps comes closest to an acceptable source of ethanol (though expensive due to taxes). [By the way, did anyone see the ABSOLUT WENNER vodka ad in September and October magazines? The artist in the background is our son --- hence the title of the painting.] Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ************************************************************************* * "The difference between real and unreal things is that unreal things * * usually last much longer." Pot-Shots #6728 * * Copyright, Ashleigh Brilliant --- used with permission * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:35:52 -0800 Reply-To: "alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Albert W Needham <"alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net> Subject: Re: Tastes Great! Less Filling! Tastes Great! Less Filling! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Vote early, vote often and everyone send > another box of Honey Nut Cheerios to Andy! Ah, come on Aaron, I just want to tell Andy that I have just mailed him a dozen boxes of HNC full of active live bees! (No Lion Dung or Cougar Urine included!) -- Al Needham * Scituate,MA,USA * Alwine@concentric.net >"The HoneyBee" -All about Honey Bees-Nice Photos!< Download from: Http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Re: Betty Crocker "Save our bees" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Andy, have you tried mulching the garden with honey -nut-cheerios? (My cat >suggested it.) >Ed > How about filling the 'o' with peanut butter...squirrel hors d'ourvers! Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:39:53 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guillermo Jacoby Subject: Re: An Apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being the one that raised the issue of importing bees through international boundaries in the first place I would also like to put my 2 cents worth. I felt that David's word were hard. In theory he is right in saying that a school boy understands the words that he used, he wrote: > Words which any well educated school boy is aware of, and > certainly nothing which would cause offence in normal polite society. Nontheless they were strong. Pure Jane was being nice, then again, David shows that he feels strong agaist bees being imported, and that was made very clear on his message(s). After reading Allen message I felt better though. But we are dealing in many different cultures here. I have come to the conclusion that sometimes what is perfectly fine in one culture migh not be in another culture (Steve pointed at this also). This issue reminded me that beekeeping is an universal activity. As far as I know (but I'm not a historian so please correct me if this is not a fact), practiced worldwide through history as it is a worldwide practice today. But it is only in this decade, and through the INTERNET that we can share it in a world wide way. Regards, Guillermo -- Guillermo Jacoby AHBeekeeper from Nicaragua ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:46:29 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Sugar syrup/Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK Guys here is the question: If I feed too much syrup to my hives this winter, I will get some syrup-Honey in the supers in the spring. Is this honey or is it not? The bees have added the enzymes to convert the sugar into honey. I am fearful of selling it as Honey (the consumer wouldn't know, but I would). Opinions????? Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:48:35 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: Sugar syrup/Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This one should get plenty of comment. To my understanding, nectar is sucrose, a di-sacharide (sp?) which is then converted by the bees with invertase enzymes into mono-sacharides (again sp?). Sugar is also sucrose, so the resulting product should be honey, not sugar syrup. This is my understanding - what do the long time experts have to say? Rick Grossman Oregon At 03:46 PM 11/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >OK Guys here is the question: > >If I feed too much syrup to my hives this winter, I will get some >syrup-Honey in the supers in the spring. Is this honey or is it not? The >bees have added the enzymes to convert the sugar into honey. > >I am fearful of selling it as Honey (the consumer wouldn't know, but I would). > >Opinions????? > > >Richard Barnes >rbarnes@halnet.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> I wonder what method they use to separate >>the propolis. I have been keeping my cover scrapings and any big lumps of >>pure propolis separate as I find it a wonderful cure for sore throat. The >>beekeeper from Surinam who visited me used propolis mats under his covers >>and sold propolis to a Dutch pharmaceutical company for $15 a pound. Their >>beekeeper's coop also makes a tincture of propolis (15%) that they market >>locally. When the runny noses and sore throats started last fall I started the habit of breaking a chunk of propolis off whenever working hives and chewing it. I believe it has helped prevent me from getting colds this year. Sort of a bee-made pill! God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:15:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Sugar syrup/Honey REGARDING RE>Sugar syrup/Honey Richard Barnes wrote: >If I feed too much syrup to my hives this winter, I will get some >syrup-Honey in the supers in the spring. Is this honey or is it not? The >bees have added the enzymes to convert the sugar into honey. When you feed, you should not have supers on the hives. Therefore, the bees cannot move the syrup into supers but must store it in the brood chamber. They will not take more than they can consume and/or store in available space; this food they will consume themselves as well as feed to the brood. Therefore, later when a spring flow develops and the supers are put on, the new flow, not stored food, will go into the supers. I have never seen bees move anything into supers before the flow begins. The question then is moot. Ted Fischer Dexter, MIchigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:45:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: AO Saratovneftegeophysica Comments: cc: General questions In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Georgy, I have little information of the kind you wish and am passing on this message to two discussion lists. Those wishing to respond, please contact Mr. Ivanov directly. Tom Sanford On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, AO Saratovneftegeophysica wrote: > Dear Dr. Sanford, > > I realise that this letter is really unexpected for you, of course, > but hope that it will be of some interest in spite of my English and > 'skill' in writing of such messages. > > My name is Georgy Ivanov. I live in Saratov, Russia. > > We have a technology of high quality extracting of components from bee > products. First of all I mean melittin and phospholipase A2. This > technology was performed on the basis of a lab of Russian Academy of > Science. It was a private initiative of scientists working in that lab. > > Now we are looking for a commercial use of this. I mean that we can > produce such components here (maybe some other) and sell them. > > My american friend advised me to try to contact you concerning this > deal. I'm sorry if this advise was wrong. > > My e-mail address: uugeo@geophys.saratov.su > subject: for Georgy Ivanov. > > Looking forward for your reply. > > > Sincerely, > > Georgy Ivanov. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:17:50 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 >> I can get a fire going producing good smoke, but by the time I >>pull my gloves on, the smoker quits. Any advice on correct procedure >>here? >> >> About a year or so ago Bee Culture ran an article written > by a couple who invented an ingenious solution to smoker > fuel. They fashinoned a double walled basket (kinda basket-in-a-basket > idea) inserts using hardware cloth (1/2" , I think), then compacted > pine shavings ($3.50/BALE at my feed store) into the baskets. The > insert fits inside the smoker and is lit with newspaper (although > I like the propane torch idea!). According to these folks the baskets > last for *several* hours! In fact I believe they cited this as a drawback > for the hobbyist with only a couple of hives....no way to extinguish > the damn thing after it got going. They have made several baskets > and always have spares filled and ready to go. > > I'm just telling this from memory, being too lazy to dig out the > article, but I think I've covered the gist of it. > > Regards, > > >Tim Peters, Kirby VT >tpeters@kingcon.com >KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey >I rather be flying! Based on the idea presented in the above description I constructed a single basket with harware cloth (1/8" I had for bee escape contruction) to be inserted into my smoker. This wire cage was made with three pieces of screen. The base, sides, and top. The top is just inserted into the basket after filling with wood shavings. First I cut a circular piece of 1" wood smaller than the inside of my smoker. To construct the bottom I stapled a piece of sceen to the wood with enough overhang to bend over the edge of the wood. I cut spoke cuts and bent and trimmed it. This then had the sides stapled to it. The top was the constucted in the same manner but using a smaller piece of wood. I hope you get the idea. Maybe a diagram would help. -------------------------------------------------- | | | | | | | | | FLAT PIECE | | | | | | | | | | | -------------------------------------------------- ,------, ------------------- ,-' '-, | . _|_ . | |\ /| | . - - . | | '-, ,-' | | / \ | | '------' | |__-| circular|___| | | | | wood | | | | | \ / | | | | . -___- . | | | | . . . | | | ------------------- | | | | Two screen pieces | | for top and bottom |\ /| CUT,BEND,TRIM '-, ,-' '------' Finished basked Filled with wood shavings it worked very well. It burned all the fuel. To start it I used one full size sheet of newspaper torn in 1/4's and crumpled, lit and placed in the bottom on the smoker. I inserted the basket and stoked the smoker to get it going. Inserting the basket didn't smother the fire, normally adding shavings is the tricky part. The extra air space helps keep the fire going. Also the basket can be stuffed tight for long use or looser for less time. I haven't tried a loose load yet though. One observation is the flame/smoke tends to run up the side of the smoker in the space between the side and the screen making for hot smoke. Placing some green grass on the top cooled it down. A couple cages made up in advance may keep me from having wood shavings all over my deck when lighting my smoker. Time will tell if I find this little contraption still in use by next summer. Jim Moore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:30:15 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Sugar Syrup/Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Once again this isMy Fault. I did not send enough information with my origional question. I winter with one brood box and one super. In the spring I pull the super which will have 3-4 frames of brood and 5-6 frames of syrup/honey left from winter feeding or from spring feeding. I use the super to start a new hive by placing the super under a brood box for about a month while the bees pull the wax in the brood chamber above. Then I reverse and put the brood box on the bottom and the bees start to fill the super with honey from the spring flow. When I pull this super off I many times find 3-4 frames of honey that tastes a lot like sugar syrup and is a different color from the spring flow honey so I assume it is from the syrup fed. I live in South Central Oklahoma and here it is November and my bees are still active. We have not had our first killing frost yet! If I extract this honey it is a light straw color and is "sweeter" than the normal spring flow honey. If I feed this back to the hive, do I not get into the question of what effect feeding honey back to the hive can have? With 10 hives I end up with up to 9 gallons of this stuff and I have some people who really like the taste of this "honey" and want more. At present I am giving the stuff away in bottles that do not have a honey label so as to not misrepresent the product. Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com p.s.: I have heard of some producers feeding syrup to their bees year round to increase honey production by the bees placing this material with honey in the comb. With honey being higher priced than sugar they are making a killing on their product and the bees are doing the work. Is this practice illegal in your area or just immoral? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:32:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: help- locate a reader ---------------------------------------- HELP...This message is to a Lesley Haynes but keeps bouncing back, so if any of you are this person or know who it is please pass this on, and it's OK to read it yourself. ttul Andy- ---------------------------------------- To: lesleyha@aw.com From: joanne hoefer Hi: Andy at beenet asked me to answer this message. The shipping on the book is $4.72. It is the same to ship it directly to England and I can do that if you pefer saving you the hassle of getting it and reshipping it. It takes appx 4-5 weeks to arrive (in our experience) in England, we sell several books there. This book is 283 pages, full color with lots of additional information about each herb\oil comb0, its uses, safety notes and ideas for use. If you want the book include sale price + shipping and it will go out same day funds are received. We need either a check drawable on US bank or Postal Order or charge card. Our band does not accept drafts from banks out of state so I assume that would also cover Canada. They do accept postal orders, money orders etc. So whatever is best for you will work ok for us. Thanks for your interest........................ Joanne PS we also have something rather neat for bee minded folks - Bee Button Covers 5 button covers (2 bees, 2 flowers and skept) for $15.00 makes a nice gift. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa2.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:42:14 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sarah Fries Subject: Re: your mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have no idea what he is talking about, Can we discuss it and learn? Anybody Know? Jerry Fries >Georgy, I have little information of the kind you wish and am passing >on this message to two discussion lists. Those wishing to respond, please >contact Mr. Ivanov directly. > >Tom Sanford > >On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, AO Saratovneftegeophysica wrote: > >> Dear Dr. Sanford, >> >> I realise that this letter is really unexpected for you, of course, >> but hope that it will be of some interest in spite of my English and >> 'skill' in writing of such messages. >> >> My name is Georgy Ivanov. I live in Saratov, Russia. >> >> We have a technology of high quality extracting of components from bee >> products. First of all I mean melittin and phospholipase A2. This >> technology was performed on the basis of a lab of Russian Academy of >> Science. It was a private initiative of scientists working in that lab. >> >> Now we are looking for a commercial use of this. I mean that we can >> produce such components here (maybe some other) and sell them. >> >> My american friend advised me to try to contact you concerning this >> deal. I'm sorry if this advise was wrong. >> >> My e-mail address: uugeo@geophys.saratov.su >> subject: for Georgy Ivanov. >> >> Looking forward for your reply. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Georgy Ivanov. >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:51:40 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sarah Fries Subject: cheerios Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey guys are you sure you are not violating shipping laws by shipping bees in a cheerios box? Does that make andy an accesory? In the old very, old days the families would inter marry. Maybe andy needs to marry Betty Crocker, that way he could have some infuence. I guess he should ask for his wifes permission first. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:48:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: The Next Step??? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199611061009.UAA12084@student.uq.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Mauricio Montes-Castillo wrote: > >...Having enjoyed immensely being a part of this list, I suddenly had an > >idea. I thought it would be "neat" to converse more directly. And the > >obvious forum would be a "Talker" or a "MOO". ... > > Hi Ian: > > I thought it was a great idea, but unfortunately some of us are sleeping > while you guys in the American continent are awake... or viceversa. > Got to go... the possum in the microwave for afternoon tea is ready. Okay..theres an easy solution to the time problem as someone posted a day or so ago: Have several different times to meet, and pass on the thread from one session to the next. Where there's a will, there's a way.....:) Ian P.S. Possum?....eeuuwwwww.....;) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:20:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: SugarSyrup/Honey REGARDING RE>SugarSyrup/Honey Richard Barnes wrote: >I winter with one brood box and one super. In the spring I pull the super which will have 3-4 frames of brood and 5-6 frames of syrup/honey left from winter feeding or from spring feeding. I use the super to start a new hive by placing the super under a brood box for about a month while the bees pull the wax in the brood chamber above. Then I reverse and put the brood box on the bottom and the bees start to fill the super with honey from the spring flow. When I pull this super off I many times find 3-4 frames of honey that tastes a lot like sugar syrup and is a different color from the spring flow honey so I assume it is from the syrup fed. I live in South Central Oklahoma and here it is November and my bees are still active. We have not had our first killing frost yet! If I extract this honey it is a light straw color and is "sweeter" than the normal spring flow honey. If I feed this back to the hive, do I not get into the question of what effect feeding honey back to the hive can have?< This is an interesting method of management, and completely different from how I would do it in southeastern Michigan. I understand that you winter in one deep brood chamber plus a medium depth super. But once you remove the super in the late spring, do you give the colony another deep chamber, or manage them in one deep only plus supers? Here, I would always use at least two deeps, year round (sometimes three). Why do you extract the "honey" from the wintering super? Why not just leave it as part of the brood chamber setup for good, allowing the brood to expand into it as the "honey" is consumed, and afterward letting the colony refill it with winter stores again, either from collected nectar or from syrup feeding? In that case, fresh supers placed atop the colony during the flow would fill up with good nectar honey only. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:55:44 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Joining two queens in the winter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From:elevi@Aristotle.net (Ed Levi) >Subject:Re: combining hives > >>I have a problem and could use some advice. >> >>My question is, how do I proceed here in Northwest Iowa where the >>temperatures are already below freezing? Will the two queens do >>battle till one survives or do I run the danger of losing both >>queens if I join the colonies? >> >>I have joined a queenless colony with a queenright colony many times >>using the newspaper method, but I have never joined two queenright >>colonies at this late time of the year. >> >>Suggestions? >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>Duane H. Bajema e-mail bajema@dordt.edu >>Agriculture Department 712/722-6275 office >>Dordt College 712/722-1198 FAX >>Sioux Center, IA 51250 >>------------------------------------------------------------ Later, when it's colder here, I've seen combined hives overwinter with two queens when combining two hive bodies with newspaper. I've also seen them cohabitate into the spring like that. The trick, I believe, is to not combine two queens until it's cold enough to not wonder into each other. Good luck, no promises, Ed ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:14:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Sugar Syrup/Honey RICHARD BARNES SAID: he has heard of beekeepers who are making honey from sugar and asks: RB>With honey being higher priced than sugar they are making a >killing on their product and the bees are doing the work. >Is this practice illegal in your area or just immoral? Yes it is illegal and if any beekeeper who does that sells to even a small honey packer it can be detected and for a small cost the evidence can be certified by a chemical lab and action taken. If you know of anyone who is doing this you can notify the American Beekeeping Federation for information on their detection and enforcement program or start with you local agricultural authorities. This can be a violation of both federal and state laws. Even with the high price of honey the profit would not bee high in feeding sugar and extracting it as honey because much is lost in the handling by the bees. Most of the cases that have been prosecuted have been people who have added sugar to honey after it is extracted. ttul Andy- --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... The hairy wild-bee that murmurs and hankers up and do ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:23:33 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guillermo Jacoby Subject: Re: BEE VENOM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:44 AM 11/5/96 SAT, you wrote: >THIS IS JORGE CONTADOR OF CHILE > >I NEED TO KNOW HOW MUCH IS 1 gr. OF BEE VENOM. >WHERE CAN I BUY BEE VENOM ? > > What is Bee Venom used for? Guillermo --------------------------- Guillermo Jacoby AHBeekeeper from Nicaragua ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:04:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects on Andy & Allen Phil, That was my "rainy day ramblings" poking fun at those of us that might jump on the "magic bullet" bandwagon due to the spread of info on the internet. The only thing I've seen this method control is beekeepers that use too much smoke. I think the oil is best recycled and not burnt. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:23:32 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: cheerios Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:51 6/11/96 -0900, you wrote: >Hey guys are you sure you are not violating shipping laws by shipping bees >in a cheerios box? Does that make andy an accesory? Questions: 1) How many bees can you fit in a cheerios box? I guess it depends on the box size. 2) Do the bees eat the honey while on the way? 3) Are bees alergic to cheerios like Andy's cat? Mauricio :) ******************************************************** --- When finally I found the answer, I forgot what was the question--- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:11:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: open feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable " After feeding each hive this fall I concerning open feeding next this spring to cut down on my work load. I would like some feed back on the pros and cons of this feeding method. " Bill Hughes ----------------- Open feeding is becoming more and more popular in Canada. First remark : open feeding should not be recommended in areas where = there are other beehives within flight range unless the other = beekeeper(s) agrees. You can end up feeding the neighbor's hives. too = bad for you but too bad for the neighbor also you feed before he removes = his honey supers. Also consider that your neighbor's bees may not want = the medications you add to your syrup ! Practically I think that few = areas are suitable for open feeding. Canada is probably an exception = with its low hive concentration. Otherwise I think open feeding is good. It has many advantages. *** PROS : - feeding can be done earlier in the season. You can distribute the = syrup in all your yards before you even pull your honey (keep a closed = lid on the barrels). Just remove the lid as your harvest. - each hive will take syrup according to its need - this is a cheap delivery mode : no feeders to buy, carry back and = forth or clean. Very little labor involved. *** CONS: - varroa would probably spread faster in a apiary if you barrel feed. = (This is an assumption.) I do not really think that it would be a = vector for other diseases.=20 Use straw (2-4 inches) on top of the syrup to avoid the loss of bees by = drowning. Wood floaters are not as good : more dead bees and slower = delivery of the syrup than straw. CHECK YOUR LOCAL REGULATIONS... Jean-Pierre CHAPLEAU bee breeder chapleau@interlinx.qc.ca 1282, rang 8, St-Adrien (QC) Canada J0A 1C0 (819) 828-3396; fax: (819) 828-0357 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:19:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Insulation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We have been using stryrofoam, or expanded polystyrene, for about 8 years. We use 3/4 in., high density because it is durable, tried 1/2 in. low density but the bees chewed it up quickly. A 16X20 inch piece is placed over an inverted inner cover. The inner cover has a 2 in.piece of the rim removed for ventilation. -- End --