Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id AA7F21300D4; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:27:59 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4496; Thu, 14 Nov 96 10:32:21 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6665; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:32:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:32:01 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9611B" To: "W. Allen Dick" X-UIDL: 591 Status: U ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 01:58:17 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >How do you use your propolis for sore throats? What recipe do you use for >the tincture and for what purposes would people buy the tincture (and how >would they use it)? Are there some good sources to understand the various >uses and preparations of propolis? >*** > >Rick Grossman >Oregon, USA Hi Rick: To cure sore throats with propolis you just suck on a big chip. DO NOT CHEW. This is essential as the stuff sticks to your teeth and is a real pain in the ass to get off. To make a tincture you dissolve in hot alcohol. 15% or 20% propolis and the rest is alcohol. (Propolis is completely insoluble in water which is probably why the bees love to caulk with it). If you are going to swallow or gargle the tincture for sore throat or cough then 5 to 10 drops at a time is sufficient. It is also used topically on cuts (because of the antibiotic properties of propolis) and is said to be good for digestive tract ulcers if swallowed. You must use ethyl (grain) alcohol of course. Here on PEI we cannot get strong alcohol (which is important for dissolving it) at our government liquor stores so I like to use double distilled moonshine. (You didn't read this post Harvey at gov.pe.ca). We have a long tradition of moonshine on Prince Edward Island. We also used to trade fish to boats from Boston for barrels of rum in the old days and this trade went on at night on secluded coastline. Now it seems that only marijuana and other drugs are coming in this way. The stuff in the barrels would also have been suitable for tincture of propolis as it had to be diluted before you could drink it, and you could swish the barrels out with hot water two or even three times and still have a dandy drink just from the stuff soaked in the oak. Info: I have a book on propolis, but I just looked for it and can't find it, and its not that great anyway. Try a search engine. Have a nice day, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:15:14 EET Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dzintars Striks Organization: LATVIA POSTOFFICE Subject: Re: BEE VENOM > What is Bee Venom used for? Medicine sure. One of Latvia pharmaceutics company already many years produce Bee Venom Ointment, which give good results in Multiple Sclerosis treatment. Now are create Micro Vaccine, which show much more effective Mach more interesting information is available in WWW by Net Searching. In practice all connections searching by "Bee Venom" have descriptions about Multiple Sclerosis. May be somebody know any other Bee Venom using form? For example, for wife mother poisoning. With best regards from Latvia Dzintars Striks Email:DZINTARS@roze.riga.post.lv t.371-7018769 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 04:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Gant <106213.3313@compuserve.com> Subject: Ibuprofen The question of non-steroidal anti inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) affecting beekeepers' immunity from stings came up in the UK in 1985. The following year the Committee on Safety of Medicines asked all practising doctors to report any such incidents. By 1993 no reports had been received and a search of the literature also gave no references. This information comes from Dr Harry Riches whose opinions on reactions to stings are widely respected here. My local pharmacist sought the advice of the local hospital to check for any more recent reports and they have not found anything. Curiously the topic has just cropped up again in the UK, raised by someone who has seen a 1986 report but not the later report. Do you ever feel that beekeeping discussions go round in circles, until something really new, like varroa, comes up? If a NSAID were prescribed for me then I would be inclined to ask if there was an equally good alternative, just in case. Brian Gant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:38:29 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morten Brixtofte Petersen Subject: Honey - Spray dried? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi beeliners! Just had a call from a firm producing equipment for spray drying (eg. eggs, milk). They had a request for equipment for spray drying honey. Before the process they heat the honey to about 45 deg.C (113 F). After the spray drying they would like to obtain a powder, but they get something like caramel. They use uncrystalized honey (of course). Can honey be spray dried - (I suppose the flavour is missed)? Does anybody out there have some info on this? Quick please. Regards Morten Petersen mp@kvl.dk Royal Veterinairy and Agricultural University of Denmark Dept. of Food science Rolighedsvej 26 1958 Frederiksberg Danmark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 07:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Insulation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Vince Coppola wrote: We have been using stryrofoam, or expanded polystyrene, for about >8 years. We use 3/4 in., high density because it is durable, tried 1/2 in. >low density but the bees chewed it up quickly. A 16X20 inch piece is >placed over an inverted inner cover. The inner cover has a 2 in.piece of >the rim removed for ventilation. Hi Vince and All: I use a very deep top tray feeder on my hives. I make them out of the same lumber I use for medium supers. They have a big space over the top bars (3/4 inch or about 18 mm.). This is always filled with burr comb when I take them off in late spring, but it enables the bees to have a healthy connection over the top bars and lets me cut a top entrance and ventilation hole which is 1 inch wide (25mm.) by 1/2 inch (13mm.) deep and leave a bit of wood before the groove for the plywood bottom which has to be a syrup proof joint. The bees go up a central column to drink syrup and this has hardware screen over it. When I am finished feeding syrup I fill the tray with DRY wood shavings from a local window shop or a kiln dried hardwood specialty mill. Shavings from a regular lumber mill are not dry enough. The moisture from the hive goes out the top entrance, but alot of it also goes up the central column and into the shavings. In spring the shavings are literally sopping (you can pour water out of the feeders) from feeders that were over the strongest colonies. Feeders that were over medium strength colonies sometimes have an inch or two of dry shavings still over the wet ones. Now I realize that the soaking wet shavings have lost most of their insulation value, and that this is the advantage of polystyrene, but I am firmly convinced that the shavings are keeping the hives much drier than they would be with just the top entrance so I have refrained from putting the shavings in a plastic bags. (I could put polystyrene under the shavings, but they seem to be doing fine without it). This is the only insulating that I do, and I don't wrap. We have some pretty severe winter weather here in PEI. It is not as cold as western Canada, but it is damp, snowy and the wind can be ferocious. By the way Vince, you were right. I took more notice this year of when my eyes and face started itching and I believe it was not the propolis causing it, but rather the goldenrod pollen. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Honey Show Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gerry Visel wrote. > > Comments from the list on small bees?? > >On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:15:21 -0600 Doug Henry >writes: >> >>During discussions with other beekeepers at the show I was told that >>continued use of the same brood chambers over a prolonged period of >>use >>would lead to smaller bees. The theory being that brood cells become >>smaller due to scale or other residue left behind thereby curtailing I apologise for the lateness of this reply, but I am behind with my mail. Some years ago I bought out a bee yard, the property of a cheep keeper who didn't agree to changing comb on a regular basis. The boxes were jammed solid with propolis, so, I decided to bring the bees up into new boxes and new comb. I had limited drawn so we had to interleave, one drawn one foundation to fill new boxes. Once the queen came up we placed a queen excluder above the old box to keep her up. Eventually we removed the old bottom boxes. At that point we had bees from the old box and new bees from the new boxes. Believe it or not, we could see the difference in bee size. Without hesitation, the cells get smaller, and so do the bees. That yard we bought out now produces far more now than it did before!! We try hard to exchange comb on a regular basis. We use the same colour markers as our queen colours to help gauge the year it was introduced. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Insulation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ian Watson wrote. >Well, its that time of year. And since all my bees died last winter I >thought I might ask the lists what the best way to insulate their hives >for the winter, since this may have been my problem. >What I was planning to do was place an empty super over (or under?) the >inner cover and fill it with something....maybe straw?....Well.that is >what I would like to know. I know they need ventilation during the >winter to get rid of moisture, and I just popped an outer cover and there >is already drops of water on the inner cover.... This is a question which keeps coming back to haunt us. The biggest problem is drying out the hive and like most advice always starts weeks or months before you need it! All summer long the inside of the hive is soaking up moisture, come the winter it starts to condense on the colder surfaces. At this time of the year it is necessary to give an outlet to the outside. We do this by providing a top entrance and then covering the openings in the inner cover with something *waterproof* to prevent it soaking up the respiration. This is to prevent water vapour saturating, freezing and eventually dripping back into the cluster. A final wrap of black tar paper, in a couple of weeks, when it gets really cold. That helps to keep snow melt from soaking into the wood work, and also warms the hive slightly on sunny days. This helps the bees move to more and higher stores. As always there are many, many ways of doing things, but this has been our basic approach for many years. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:33:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" H. Sweet wrote >even a propolis trap ( kind of like a plastic q. excluder ) that you >put under the top board. The bees pack it with propolis, you take >it out and put it in your freezer until hard, then twist it a little to >break off the propolis. Some time ago I reported a company in Quebec who were interested in buying propolis offering $125 Cdn per Kilogram. For our Southern cousins that translates to $40 US per pound. Has to be clean!!! The cheapest propolis trap I have used, regular window screen (fibreglass) drop it on top of the frames for a few days and watch it fill up!! Freeze it, then crack it off. The address for those who would like it, Laboratoire Nabi Inc Trikhos enr 634 Cure Boivin Boisbriand, QC J7G 2A7 Canada 1 800 463 6224 **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:49:48 +1100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bond Subject: Re: Mind The Next Step! (Ha Ha) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mauricio, Good point, though I am told in New Zealand (on the Mainland) they don't sleep (in joke). By the way is that your possum burning? Regards Peter At 08:09 PM 6/11/96 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Ian: > >I thought it was a great idea, but unfortunately some of us are sleeping >while you guys in the American continent are awake... or viceversa. >Got to go... the possum in the microwave for afternoon tea is ready. > Peter Bond President Amateur Beekeepers' Association of NSW Inc. Ph. (612)9638-3848 (H), (612)9887-8475 (W), Fax- (612)9887-3107 (W) Snail Mail: 59 Marguerette Street, ERMINGTON NSW 2115 AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 06:57:48 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollination Services Subject: Re: BEE VENOM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii hI gUILLERMO & GUYS bEE vENOM IS USED MAINLY FOR DESENSITIZATION TREATMENTS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ALLERGIC TO BEE STINGS. aLSO, SOME USAGE IS PRODUCTION OF COSMETICS AND THE LIKE. PRICE IS SEVERAL THENTHS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS (UP TO $200,000 / GRAM) REGARDS WEIL DAN ------------------------------------- Name: WEil Dan Pollination Services Yad-Mordechai E-mail: yad_mord@netvision.net.il Date: 07/11/1996 Time: 06:57:48 AM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:51:46 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: Ibuprofen In-Reply-To: <199611070439_MC1-BC9-6027@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <199611070439_MC1-BC9-6027@compuserve.com>, Brian Gant <106213.3313@compuserve.com> writes >The question of non-steroidal anti inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) affecting >beekeepers' immunity from stings came up in the UK in 1985. >The following year the Committee on Safety of Medicines asked all >practising doctors to report any such incidents. Curiously the topic has just cropped up again in the UK, raised by someone >who has seen a 1986 report but not the later report. Do you ever feel that >beekeeping discussions go round in circles, They certainly seem to Brian, and I am even responsible for contributing to this one, thanks for responding. For a couple of years now I have heard this discussed (even on Bee-l recently) but not seen a definitive denial of the suggestion and the type of contra-indications given by the British National Formulary are not inconsistent with a link. I know two doctors that haven't checked when prescribing Ibuprofen, they may have decided its unecessary I don't know. The problem is that with each new intake of apprentice beekeepers who ask we have to advise them on how likely this is and the later committee's view does not seem to be well known, none of the beekeepers committee members or lecturers who are advising novices know of it. Consequently I thought it a good opportunity for the BBKA (who ought to know ) to either offer a good considered response like yours or shoot it down in flames in a public arena. Is it easy to direct people to Dr Richers findings and would he or you (or me when I know what I'm talking about!) write to Beecraft and express precisely that view if the BBKA don't respond ? -- Dave Black Blacks Bee Gardens, Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:28:20 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Edwin Badgett Subject: Re: Honey Show/Changing Frame Comb Gerry Visel wrote. > > Comments from the list on small bees?? > >On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:15:21 -0600 Doug Henry >writes: >> * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * " Eventually we removed the old bottom boxes. At that point we had bees from the old box and new bees from the new boxes. Believe it or not, we could see the difference in bee size. Without hesitation, the cells get smaller, and so do the bees. That yard we bought out now produces far more now than it did before!!" This is very interesting. How often are the combs changed. Do you use the drawn comb or the sheets? I have three hives and one, which is but 2 years old, is significantly smaller in size than the others. Although I started them from a mail package, the hive boxes and frames/comb were used. This most likely is a factor. I also discovered enough wax-worms in that hive to feed a small colony of birds for a week! Hopefully, that problem is now rectified. I took all the frames of honey stores out, processed the honey (which was loaded with wax worm larvae/eggs), then placed a full large brood frame from one of the stronger hives along with a full large honey stores frame from the other stronger hive. I have been refeeding their honey (less the waxworms) and sugarwater/syrup to them over the last month. Will re-open soon to remove the apisan and menthol (if any did not dissolve) and check the progress. I have noticed an appreciable increase in the hive's population since this procedure. This was an experiment of desparation that apparently worked! Ed Badgett Fayetteville, NC badge@juno.com badge@foto.infi.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:06:40 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Regarding Netiquette MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I read this somewhere some time back, find it humourous aand very useful personally, and I thought I would like to share it. I suspect perhaps it came from Ben Franklin, but then I'm sure someone will correct me. The following is a paraphrase: "If you value your reputation, is not good policy to argue with a fool. This is smply because passersby happening upon the ongoing debate will likely have great difficulty determining which one is the (original) fool." ;) FWIW Flames to /dev/nul Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 07:00:24 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Honey Flavor Does the flavor of some honey benefit being exposed to the air? Letting red wines breath to improve the flavor is done before consumption. Would doing the same before bottling or before consumption improve the flavor of honey? Is it done as a matter of practice? If so for what kind of honey? The honey I have in mind is a wetlands wildflower honey, loostrife, and jewel weed primarily. It seems that the honey toward the end of the jar has less of an afterbite. Thanks, Jim Moore ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:02:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "George W.D. Fielder" Subject: Re: Smoker fuel BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU +++ ------------------- Kellay resenik wrote; >I have ....... often wondered >if the burning wax might not "scare" the bees ........ I doubt the bees know what burning wax smells like, i.e I doubt that they ever experienced the smell of their wax burning. In any case thought I'd mention that I use soft corrugated cardboard cartons, preferably rained upon for a few days then dried out. I roll it around dry spoilt hay or coarse straw - it burns continuously. I find thin grass does not let enough air through. To get it to lit I enclose a piece of newspaper in the center and sticking out a few inches below the roll. I light it with a match or lighter, get it burning well then insert into the smoker. In very humid weather my smoker fodder often gets too damp to light easily by this method so I have often dipped the bottom in liquid beeswax (the newspaper piece and all. This ignites well and gets things going nicely. I never noticed any different reaction by the bees when the waxed material is used. george fielder 15v years keeping bees and still learning. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:21:02 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Old Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >>During discussions with other beekeepers at the show I was told > >>that continued use of the same brood chambers over a prolonged > >>period of use would lead to smaller bees. The theory being that > >>brood cells become smaller due to scale or other residue left > >>behind thereby curtailing We thrashed this one fairly thouroughly to death some time back. The outcome? Apparently most commercial beekeepers don't worry about the age of brood combs much Older combs may be necessary in some regions for successful wintering Bees vary in size more due to nutrition than cell size in many cases. Bigger bees are not necessarily better. Manufacturers have tended to vary in the size and number of cells per sheet. The size most commonly made has been arrived at over the years by consensus. Bees in nature vary the size of their cells on a given comb, but tend to stick close to a size which is characteristic of the strain. Small cells may possibly inhibit varroa infestation, since it is suggested that the gap between the larva and the cell is a factor. There was more, but that is what I recall. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 07:08:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Afro Bee Finds in Arizona UPDATE ON WESTERN KILLER BEES According to one of many interesting reports and studies on the so called advance of the African Honey Bee in California and the west was a report that 98 confirmed AHB swarms have been identified in Arizona and "one was from the 7,000 ft elevation near Flagstaff, Arizona". On its way to winter in Colorado no doubt. If some of you don't know one popular route for travellers comes out of Colorado at Flagstaff, but not necessarily one I would want to truck bees on. The reports of new finds 90 miles east of San Diego reported in the press several times the last three weeks were actually found much earlier but only just confirmed as AHB. New DNA studies to determine if the AHB has moved out of the area they are know to have been found in earlier this year found not only AHB in the area but also found a large number of local swarms that passed the DNA tests for bees from Egypt (Apis mellifera lamarkii). Interesting to note that this is the Date growing area of California, not a good place to bee sitting under a tree eating your dates. Also some one should point out the DNA study did not sample any bees outside the know AHB area so it really is not honest to say the AHB has not spread out of this area based on this study when only bees inside the area were checked. So far as far as I can find out none of these bees have been reported as aggressive other then the one swarm that attacked two tree trimmers stinging one all of 25 times, (most beekeepers would not find out of the ordinary if they were up in a tree working with tools and came across a swarm of any kind of bees). Also interesting that wild bees from a well know site in SW Arizona also tested with the DNA test was found to have the DNA of bees from Egypt over a year ago. ttul OLd Drone 11796 (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... How doth the little busy bee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:37:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "George W.D. Fielder" Subject: Re Bee Venom uses BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU +++ Recent comments on Bee venom for MS and high cot of same for bee allergy treatment entice me to report that I have been involved with an experimental treatment for MS patients using live active bees. It is referred to as Bee Venom Therapy. I found it quite strange that after avoiding stings for many years now I was endeavoring to get one bee to sting a person in a selected spot. Usually within 1/2 accuracy. One Doctor in the group meeting was has been following the therapy since it extended acupuncture treatment in that it left an irritant to further attract the defenses of one' s own body to a particular area. Thus the procedure involved a knowledge of acupuncture points, as related to MS plus catching individual bees and applying their stings. Does anyone have any experience in this? Is the group interested? Thanks ............... george fielder ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:19:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Course in Argentina Comments: To: General questions , apis-l@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There has been some discussion across the networks concerning antibiotic resistance to American foulbrood. A workshop in Argentina where this phenomenon has been found, see http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis96/apaug96.htm#2 , will be held December 9 -14. It is called Loque Americana de las Abejas Tecnicas de Laboratorio para la deteccion e identificacion de Panenibacillus larvae. For further information, contact Ing. Agr. Adriana M. Alippi, Universidad Nacional de la Plata, tel/fax: 54(021)3-3467 or email alippi@biol.unlp.edu.ar Registration closes 22 November. Tom Sanford ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:56:07 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Ontario B. A. annual meeting Dear B- Liners: You are invited to attend 1996 Annual Convention for the Ontario beekeepers' Association. The Convention will be held Thursday Nov. 28 th and Friday Nov. 29th 1996 at the Holiday Inn Toronto Yorkdale, Toronto Ontario. Our Feature Speaker is Dr. Otto Boecking, University of Melbweg, Bonn, Germany. Dr. Max Watkins from Sandoz in England, and Wink Howland from Saskatchewan are also on the roster. For registeration or more information, contact: Mrs. Pat westlake Tel:(519) 565-2622 Fax: (519) 565-5452 ONTARIO BEEKEEPERS' ASSOCIATION 1996 ANNUAL CONVENTION & BUSINESS MEETING HOLIDAY INN TORONTO YORKDALE Toronto, Ontario, Canada Beekeeping in the Future Thursday, Nov. 28-29th 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 8:30 am Registration & coffee 9:00 am Greetings from the city of Toronto 9:10 am Appointment of Committees Beekeeping - What is ahead? Sustainable Funding Henry Hiemstra, President 9:50 am Canadian honey Council Report David MacMillan, Representative Wink Howland, President 10:30 am Resistance to Varroa Mites Dr. Max Watkins, Technical Development Manager, Sandoz Specialty Pest Control Ltd., England 11:15 am Nomination of Directors Introduction of Nominees 11:30 am Lunch 12:45 pm Election of Directors 1:00 pm Business/Financial Reports Pat Westlake, Business administrator 1:25 pm First Reading of Resolutions 1:40 pm Grooming Behaviour and Consideration for Genetic Improvement for Varroa Resistance by Breeding Honey Bees. Dr. Otto Boecking, Univesity of Melbweg, Bonn, Germany 2:30 pm Break 2:45 pm Beekeeping in the New Millennium: Will Things be Different? Dr. Cynthia scott-Dupree, University of Guelph 3:15 pm Product Development for Varroa Mites Dr. Max Watkins, technical development Manager, Sandoz Specialty Pest Control Ltd., England 4:00 pm Apples and Cherries: Bees and Pollination 1995, 1996 A Novel Means of Controlling Tracheal Mites Dr. Peter Kevan, University of Guelph 6:00 pm reception - Cash bar 7:00 pm Dinner Presentations Honey Competition Awards Rev. Bob Rumball - The Bob Rumball Center for the Deaf Ticket raffle ===================================================================== Friday, Nov. 29 th 1996 ------------------------------ 8:30 am Registration 9:00 am Controlling Varroa Mites in Germany Dr. Otto Boecking, University of Melbweg, Bonn, Germany 9:50 am Provincial Apiarist Report Practical Methods of Increased Honey Production Doug McRory, Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food & Rural Affairs 10:25 am Introduction of New Executive 10:30 am Break 10:45 am Business Session 12:00 am Lunch- Guest speaker, Mary Lye, " Wake Up and Smell the Clover!" 1:30 pm Beekeeping Research: The Future in Ontario Dr. Gard Otis, University of Guelph 2:00 pm Beekeeping in Yorkton, Saskatchewan Wink Howland, Canadian Honey Council President 2:30 pm Pricing Honey in a Changing Market John Van Alten, Hamilton/Wentworth Beekeeper 2:45 pm Break 3:00 am Integrated Pest Management Strategy for Controlling Honey Bee Parasitic Mites. Dr. Medhat Nasr, Ontario Beekeepers' Association See you in the meeting. Medhat Nasr, Ontario Beekeepers' Association ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:34:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Honey - Spray dried? I recall quite some time ago that the Japanese had developed "dried honey". Must have been ten years ago or so. I don't recall what they intended to use if for. regards, David Morris Laurel, Md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:49:02 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank Battistolo Subject: Re: Processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I sell my propolis to health food store in 10 gram "bricks",for $2.50 ea. wich works out to roughly $112.00 a pound,canadian funds. Put your clean propolis in hot water until fairly soft like putty,roll it out in long lenghts about a small finger size and cut pieces about 1.5 inches long,and there are your 10 gram "brick".All you need to do is find the customers. Good luck. Frank frankb@cyberstore.ca frankb@cyberstore.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:50:36 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Honey - Spray dried? In-Reply-To: <961107193441_1680892457@emout08.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, David Morris wrote: >I recall quite some time ago that the Japanese had developed "dried honey". > Must have been ten years ago or so. I don't recall what they intended to >use if for. > >regards, > >David Morris >Laurel, Md > > Yhe California Honey Advisory Board had a hand in developing dried honey in the early 60's. The plan was to use it in preparng foods like cereals for sale as prepared foods. They also had honey jelly about then. They should still have information for drying honey. It was in fairly large crystals and could be easily measured. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 01:14:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: DADANT CATALOG Dear BEE-Lers, I just received this letter from Dadant: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Bee Supply Dealer: We have been hanging on as long as we could. But in the end, it would appear that it is true. Sometimes, you simply are your own worst enemy. After years of publishing a retail catalog, we have decided to discontinue doing so in 1997. As the supply industry becomes more and more competitive, we find we have no choice but to try and maintain a fair share of the market that is available. A survey indicates that our own retail catalog is quite often our competitors best tool. And as the only remaining publisher of a retail catalog we have become vulnerable to all other supply manufacturers and distributors. So at long last, we feel the time has come when we too must put our best foot forward and take on the major competitors on a more level playing field. It was a difficult decision to make. But the knowledge that most supply dealers build their business on the service that they provide to regional customers that we quite often do not have acces to, made it a bit easier. Most are establishing your own retail prices now in order to cover actual costs and variations in price due to your own purchasing methods. And most establish their own prices in an effort to be more competitive with the same competition we face. By taking advantage of commercial wood prices, wax working rates, and quantity discounts, you will no doubt be able to establish a price list that will keep your customers satisfied. 1997 promises to be an interesting year in the bee keeping industry. Honey prices are at an all time high and the press coverage given to the loss of honeybees as pollinators will hopefully result in an increased demand for supplies and a renewed interest in beekeeping at the hobby level. Sincerely, Nick Dadant Dadant & Sons, Inc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My opinion as a bee supply dealer: First of all, Dadant is king Bee in the U.S. bee supply industry. They have quality products at mostly reasonable prices and I've received excellent service from all offices I've contacted. I distribute 100+ Dadant catalogs per year. They're the only catalogs I distribute because Dadant has about 80% of my business. Some items I buy elsewhere because Dadant doesn't have everything and some items are just priced too high. Every bee supplier in the country that I know of has a catalog. Glory Bee Beebox Walter Kelly Brushy Mountain Mann Lake Western Bee Mid Con Even A.I.Root still has a little catalog. Dumping the catalog would be a BIG mistake I believe. I also send some customers direct to Dadant. People shop around, you can't hide your high prices. I just took it for granted that A.I. Root was out of my price range. Everyone knows that Walter Kelly's prices are hard to beat retailwise. I buy Dadant wax from other companies because buying it direct is so expensive. I never could figure that one out. Dadants woodenware is excellent but a bit pricey. Dadant carries little in the craft department besides nice colored wax sheets, bricks and wick. How about some orange wax sheets Dadant? I have to have it shipped from clear across the country. Plastic jars are the same quality and cheaper elsewhere, and glass q-line jars are out of sight no matter where you shop. Don't go the way of the wild bees Dadant. H. Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:57:51 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Honey Flavor On Thu, 7 Nov 1996 07:00:24 PST Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 writes: > Does the flavor of some honey benefit being exposed to >the air? Letting red wines breath to improve the flavor is done >before consumption. I think it's the other way around... Being a supersaturated sugar solution, honey absorbs moisture from the air or anywhere alse, (even while in capped comb.) I had some that picked up a mildew smell and had to be fed back. An interesting discussion here at honey harvest time noted that freshly uncapped honey tasted best. (Subjective judgement, but widely agreed to.) Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:57:51 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Honey - Spray dried? On Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:38:29 +0100 Morten Brixtofte Petersen writes: >Just had a call from a firm producing equipment for spray drying. They had >a request for equipment for spray drying honey. The latest issue of American Bee Journal notes (in their 25 years ago in ABJ section) that a dehydrated honey ingredient "prevents excessive cookout from meat products..." and "The honey-starch ingredient, called Honi-bake, is offered by Food & Technology, Inc., 5903 Northwest Highway, Chicago, IL 60631." That was 25 years ago. Dunno if they are still in business, but a check of the internet yellow pages might find them or similar. Good luck! Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 07:26:34 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Honey Flavor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Does the flavor of some honey benefit being exposed to > >the air? Letting red wines breath to improve the flavor is done > >before consumption. > > I think it's the other way around... Being a supersaturated > sugar > solution, honey absorbs moisture from the air or anywhere alse, > (even while in capped comb.) I had some that picked up a mildew > smell and had to be fed back. > > An interesting discussion here at honey harvest time noted that > freshly uncapped honey tasted best. (Subjective judgement, but > widely agreed to.) I think that there may be *some* that *could* benefit, but generally speaking, exposure to air -- even in extracting -- results in loss of volatiles that provide flavour, and some addition of oxygen, which will result in chemical change. This is one of the potential problems with drying honey -- air is used. Nothing beats honey in the comb for flavour. For entering (and winning) competitions, honey should be pressed from the comb with a spoon to avoid having it fly through the air as it does in extracting. However, lots of people win using extracted honey, so there you go... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:26:31 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: open feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote, in part: >Open feeding is becoming more and more popular in Canada. > >First remark : open feeding should not be recommended in areas where >there are other beehives within flight range unless the other beekeeper(s) >agrees. You can end up feeding the neighbor's hives. too bad for you but >too bad for the neighbor also you feed before he removes his honey supers. >Also consider that your neighbor's bees may not want the medications you >add to your syrup ! Practically I think that few areas are suitable for >open feeding. Canada is probably an exception with its low hive >concentration. > >Otherwise I think open feeding is good. It has many advantages. ******* Here is a caution: A beekeeper in our area fed his bees with paste type feed placed in a cattle pasture. The cattle got into the feed, and several of them died before anyone know anything was amiss. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ************************************************************************* * "The difference between real and unreal things is that unreal things * * usually last much longer." Pot-Shots #6728 * * Copyright, Ashleigh Brilliant --- used with permission * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:40:37 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: frankay@mail.netshop.net Subject: bee venom therapy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Interesting to see the bee venom therapy discussion in high gear, especially since an exceptionally informative educational afternoon with speakers on the subject during the BC Honey Producers AGM. Has anyone any experience using bee venom therapy for Lou Gehrig's disease? Am I correct in thinking ALS is the same disease? As a muscular degeneration condition, I would expect it to have similarities to MS, but would be interested in comments on the more specific use for Lou Gehrig's - i.e. what stage was the treatment used, what points to use the venom on, duration of treatments, effectiveness etc. I have a dear friend who has been diagnosed with the above, "or something very like it". So far, 18 months after onset, the effects are still confined to the tongue - swollen and stiff, causing serious speech damage. No traditional treatments appear to be known. Acupuncture etc. have done a little - a very little. She is ready to try anything and has been very interested in the references to immune system stimulation of bee venom. Any help out there? Regards, Fran Kay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:45:57 +1100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bond Subject: Re: Honey - Spray dried (reply) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Morten, Putting on my work hat: the answer is YES! Though I am mot a Food Technologist, I asked Jim Cullhane who is (over lunch), it is not easy and you need some special equipment to do it (ie a longer column to dry at a lower temperature) similar to those used for tomato paste. There was an article in the "Australasian Beekeeper" within the last 18 months on a group in Queensland producing dried honey for the Australian Food Industry. Will contact you when I have more details, you may contact me directly if this to technical for the BEE-L. Kind Regards Peter Bond At 11:38 AM 7/11/96 +0100, you wrote: >Hi beeliners! >Just had a call from a firm producing equipment for spray drying (eg. eggs, >milk). They had a request for equipment for spray drying honey........... >Can honey be spray dried - (I suppose the flavour is missed)? >Does anybody out there have some info on this? Quick please. >Regards > >Morten Petersen mp@kvl.dk >Royal Veterinairy and Agricultural University of Denmark >Dept. of Food science >Rolighedsvej 26 >1958 Frederiksberg >Danmark > > Peter Bond Container Test Facility Manager CSIRO Division of Food Science and Technology PO Box 52, North Ryde, NSW 2113, Australia Tel: 02-887 8475 Fax: 02-887 3107 Street address: Lot 17 Riverside Corporate Park West Entrance, Delhi Road, North Ryde (Sydney) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 21:29:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Doyle Subject: Deeper Ecology: Essays on Ecological Spirituality Greetings! I have recently completed a book entitled "Deeper Ecology: Essays on Ecological Spirituality," which outlines and discusses a protocol for the preservation and restoration of global ecology, wildlife populations, and ecosystems based on the degredation due to human exploitation. The Journal of Mammalogy is planning to review this book in the near future. I invite you to read a sample of the text; at the following website: http://home.aol.com/deepereco Ordering instructions for the book are shown there as well. If you cannot access this page, please e-mail me for the information. Thank you very much, David Doyle Wildlife Ecologist KingFsher@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:56:08 +1100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bond Subject: Re: Honey Flavor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim, It is unlikely that honey would 'loose' flavour according to Dr Frank Whitfield, a Flavour Chemist, looked into this in his research for the Australian Honey Board on "De-Flavoured honey and Volatile Honey Extracts". The temperature of the product will have an effect on flavour, Dr Graham Bell an Olfactory Scientist, told me the flavour should be more stable at the bottom of the jar compared to the top. Kind Regards Peter Bond At 07:00 AM 7/11/96 PST, you wrote: > Does the flavor of some honey benefit being exposed to >the air? Letting red wines breath to improve the flavor is done >before consumption. Would doing the same before bottling or >before consumption improve the flavor of honey? Is it done as a >matter of practice? If so for what kind of honey? > > The honey I have in mind is a wetlands wildflower honey, >loostrife, and jewel weed primarily. It seems that the honey >toward the end of the jar has less of an afterbite. > > Thanks, > > Jim Moore > > Peter Bond Container Test Facility Manager CSIRO Division of Food Science and Technology PO Box 52, North Ryde, NSW 2113, Australia Tel: 02-887 8475 Fax: 02-887 3107 Street address: Lot 17 Riverside Corporate Park West Entrance, Delhi Road, North Ryde (Sydney) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 07:55:11 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: open feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Here is a caution: A beekeeper in our area fed his bees with > paste type > feed placed in a cattle pasture. The cattle got into the feed, and > several of them died before anyone know anything was amiss. That's an important warning. I see many beekeepers feed for years with open feed in pastures full of cattle, but then every so often, a bunch of cattle are killed. BTW, open feeding is not as uneven as some claim, particularly when used for fall feeding up here in the north. Some hives fill sooner than others, but then lose interest in foraging. If sufficient feed is available the others will catch up. The early gainers might be considered for breeding the next year, since there apparently has been a proven direct correlation between rapid gain and season production. Hives that are heavy *before* feeding should be examined -- they may be queenless -- or they may just be late in developing, and have put their crop in the brood nest. Any that do not gain in feeding are likely duds, and should be shaken out or combined so that the remaining feed is not wasted. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:10:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Honey Flavor Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > > > An interesting discussion here at honey harvest time noted that > > freshly uncapped honey tasted best. (Subjective judgement, but > > widely agreed to.) > > I think that there may be *some* that *could* benefit, but generally > speaking, exposure to air -- even in extracting -- results in loss > of volatiles that provide flavour, and some addition of oxygen, which > will result in chemical change. > > Nothing beats honey in the comb for flavour. > > For entering (and winning) competitions, honey should be pressed > from the comb with a spoon to avoid having it fly through the air as > it does in extracting. > Allen and others, This year I got my first moderate harvest from my top bar hives. I did a lot of splitting, and with the bad spring of the year, and with my learning to manage tbh's...I only got about 9 gallons (US). I made a press using an automobile scissor-type jack, and I then pressed the honey out of the virgin combs. Strained it, let it settle overnight, then bottle the next morning. Many of my limited number of customers (this year :) ) say that it is the best honey they have ever eaten. Guess it's close to comb honey. Got 6 lbs. of beautiful beeswax too! Now, if I can get the colonies through the winter ok...Spring will be acomin'. Best wishes to all for good overwintering, and to our friends in the southern hemisphere...hope you have bumper crops. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Myers Subject: top bar hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain What is a "top bar hive" ? I've seen these mentioned several times but I don't know what they are. TIA, Brian Myers Norman, Oklahoma, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:48:10 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Old Combs Here in Europe we prefer to use more foundation and replace old combs because of sanitary reasons. It is generally known that old dark combs may become a source of nosema, chalk brood, AFB, EFB. Yes, bees do prefer darker combs for wintering and storing honey. But if too much generations develop in the same cells combs are not dark, but black and heavy, cells certainly are narrower and SHORTER since every generation leaves exuvia and feces in them. Bees actually are smaller in comparison to those emerged in lighter combs and the other disadvantage may be that such combs take in less honey. So reasonable compromise may be the best way here, too - we should prefer brown combs. Best regards, Vladimir Ptacek, Czech Republic (ptacek@!sci.muni.cz) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:43:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: top bar hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >What is a "top bar hive" ? I've seen these mentioned several times >but I don't know what they are. > >TIA, >Brian Myers >Norman, Oklahoma, USA A top-bar hive is of relatively simple design. It is a long box across which are laid top-bars, about 30 or so in number. The bees construct their combs one per top bar. They only attach the comb at the top, to the bar. The sides and bottoms of the combs are only minimally attached, or not at all. Each comb is removable, by loosening and lifting its top-bar. This is a popular "transitional" hive in some developing countries, notably in eastern Africa. The colony is encouraged to build a straight, even comb from each bar, by the apiarist affixing a beeswax strip across the length of its underside. The bars are 1 3/8" wide or so, so that only one comb is built on each. Also the top bars are arranged with no spaces between them, so they effectively form a cover across the hive. The nice thing about this is that the only bees exposed are on the bar(s) being inspected. This helps keep the bees docile. The main disadvantage to these hives is the fragile nature of the combs. Since they are "natural," without being supported by frames/wire/foundation, they require extra care to avoid breaking them. I have utilized variations of this type of hive, and have found that after a season or two the brood combs become very durable, and then there is not much danger of them being damaged during normal inspections. Initially, tho' you just have to handle them gently. I would recommend to anyone to try one of these hives out, as it is a real education, enjoyable and fascinating, observing the colony nest construction and growth "au natural." Inspecting the hives is easy, and doesn't require much protection, normally. It is not as intrusive as taking apart a multi-story standard hive. The bees tend to just keep going about their business. Harvesting is easy with these hives (just cut the honeycombs from the top bars, leaving a little leftover to serve as a guide for the new combs). Our resident Bee-L veteran on these hives is James Satterfield, who has built several and is experiencing much success with them. He sent me some wonderful photos of his neat, orderly apiaries. I look forward to stocking several new TB hives next spring. I hope this overview is helpful. There are references on TB hive construction and use available on the Web (just where I don't recall -- Jim?). JG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:14:00 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: open feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A correspondent made the following enquiry privately. I'll respond to all, since I am sure the discussion an answer is of general interest. > In > some cases there is a lot of drowning, but in the fall that may > just remove old bees, and have a neutral or even beneficial efect > on wintering This may be a factor of syrup thickness and also surface area. Thin syrup drowns bees. If rain gets on the surface, the water wets any bees that fall in. 2:1 syrup will not wet bees easily. If the surface area is small bees fight and that results in losses and light hives. Several barrels half full are better than one. We put the lids on top, using sticks to raise them up. The low side, we extend over the barrel, so water runs off. This fall we neglected to do that and had to visit 30 yards to remove 3" of water from each drum after a big rain. (Water floats on syrup). Also types of straw vary in ability to resist moisture. Some types are far superior for feeders. > Something I've wondered about in drum feeding situations: do you > see the same? why are there so many bees sitting around on hive > tops, etc.? There is the feeding frenzy at the barrel (sometimes > not too much frenzy) but thousands of bees distributed over the > landscape, also. Is there a masking level of orientation > pheromone, confusing their return to the hive? Are they bees that > got some body contact with syrup, and are recovering after > cleaning up? Good question. I haven't observed this much, so I'll ask the list. (Guessing here...) Perhaps the bees are drunk? Syrup will ferment if water gets into it, but the bees will still take it sometimes. Perhaps some are cleaning up, and also some may be disoriented from fighting. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:47:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: DADANT CATALOG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It would be a shame to lose the customary Dadant catalog, but business is business. Look what happened to Sears & Roebuck! I for one used to really look forward to the Dadant catalogs, especially before they went to the large format. Like the Kelley catalog, there was alot of information in there. Still, I have not bought much of anything from Dadant in the past ten years. Even the local Dadant dealers (or former "dealers") were going elsewhere for stock. The woodenware and foundation especially became too expensive, so folks began to stock only "commercial"-grade woodenware (occasional knots, not-so perfect fitting parts) and foundation was purchased in bulk from whatever manufacturer had the best price at the time. The more recent suppliers like Betterbee, Mann Lake and Brushy Mountain (as well as Kelley') have for me had the best prices overall, and Dadant usually could not come close. Look at the prices on beginners' outfits, for instance. Those from Dadant or Root became pretty expensive - quite an investment in themselves. They also were listed as "everything you need," when actually a beginner would require much more (food chamber, supers etc.) This somehow seemed misleading. I do hope Dadant will continue to be major suppliers for hobbiests at least. Maybe they could get more in line with the other suppliers. FWIW ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:49:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: top bar hive,flames:) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Our resident Bee-L veteran on these hives is James Satterfield, who has >built several and is experiencing much success with them. He sent me some >wonderful photos of his neat, orderly apiaries. I look forward to stocking >several new TB hives next spring. I hope to make two or three hives by spring and stock them by using them as catch hives when I move hives from blueberry fields. Possibly may use them to put swarms in during the orange flow. They will sure build the comb on an orange flow!! My first swarm catching experience was on an orange crop last spring. I was with my new friend Mr. Birt, a beekeeper for 33 years. We watched a swarm settle on an orange tree. We took two frames of brood and put it in a 10 frame hive body (deep) with 8 frames of plastic foundation. We shook the swarm into the hive box and slowly added the frames. By the time the flow ended 2-3 weeks later all but the outer sides of the outer frames were drawn and there was capped honey to boot! What a joy... I believe memories of that first spring beekeeping will outlast memories of my high school sweetheart. If we only could put all our energy for the good of the colony "of beekeepers", as those bees did in that beautiful grove, instead of flaming each other, we would all be better off. :;:;: 0 0 o \_/ God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 21:17:08 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darlene Scribilo Subject: Bee venom: its use and price The uses of bee venom in the treatment of human health conditions is wide sread. Some of them include arthritis, rheumatism, joint inflammation, psoriasis, scars, lumbago, neuralgia, digestive disorders, multiple sclerosis, tennis elbow, low back pain, frozen shoulder and shingles. Bee venom therapy is the combination of various methods to apply the venom. It can be live bee stings, injection, cream, liniment, ointment, salve, tablet, drops, inhalation, apipuncture, electrophoresis and ultrasonophoresis. Currently there are about four dozen of companies who manufacture bee venom products in the drug and homeopathic categories all over the world. Price: The price of bee venom varies from time to time. It is influenced by its availability, the season, continent, quantity, quality, color and age. Currently it is sold from $10.00- 310.00 US/gram. In Canada, Apitronic Services specialized in the collection of different kinds of bee venom and in the production of venom solution, bee venom therapy aid materials, books and literature. The Apitherapy Research Service offers over 15,000 pages of literature on bee hive products; of these, over 5,000 pages are devoted to bee venom. You can request a Bee Venom Therapy Catalog by writing to: Michael Simics Apitronic Services 4640 Pendlebury Rd. Richmond, B.C. Canada, V7E 1E7 Ph./Fax (604) 271-9414 dags@wimsey.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:06:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Bee venom and other products What is bee venom used for? Bee venom is used for bee sting allergy desensitization. As used by my allergist, the product came freeze-dried. The allergist rehydrated it, measured out the desired dose, then gave me the injection. She also thought it was funny to have a beekeeper who was allergic to honeybees as a patient. As I recall, the packaged bee venom was considered a prescription drug, and subject to all the rules for them. I can report that the therapy worked; I now get my venom injections the old-fashioned way by accidentally putting my thumb on a bee when I pick up a frame. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:21:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: top bar hive,flames:) In-Reply-To: <199611082049.PAA25019@freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Kelley Rosenlund wrote: > > If we only could put all our energy for the good of the colony "of > beekeepers", as those bees did in that beautiful grove, instead of flaming > each other, we would all be better off. > I agree completely...and what a wonderful way of putting it..:) Ian @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:59:43 +0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George_Willy Subject: Re: Leaf Cutter Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hello the list, >A farmer friend who has one of my apiaries also has leaf cutter (alfalfa >)bees. He needs to buy new nest boards for a field expansion and asked >me if I knew of a commercial supplier of these nest boards. I told him >I would ask around. Can anyone out there give me an address of a >commercial supplier of these boards? >Thanks >Patrick M. O'Hearn >Bears Choice Honey >patrick@cyberport.com Patrick, I don't Know what a nest board is. If you can not find a supplier I can build them for you in my shop. Send the plans and I'll price them out for you. George ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:00:10 +0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George_Willy Subject: Re: bee venom therapy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Interesting to see the bee venom therapy discussion in high gear, >especially since an exceptionally informative educational afternoon with >speakers on the subject during the BC Honey Producers AGM. > >Has anyone any experience using bee venom therapy for Lou Gehrig's disease? >Am I correct in thinking ALS is the same disease? As a muscular >degeneration condition, I would expect it to have similarities to MS, but >would be interested in comments on the more specific use for Lou Gehrig's - >i.e. what stage was the treatment used, what points to use the venom on, >duration of treatments, effectiveness etc. > >I have a dear friend who has been diagnosed with the above, "or something >very like it". So far, 18 months after onset, the effects are still >confined to the tongue - swollen and stiff, causing serious speech damage. >No traditional treatments appear to be known. Acupuncture etc. have done a >little - a very little. She is ready to try anything and has been very >interested in the references to immune system stimulation of bee venom. Any >help out there? > >Regards, Fran Kay Fran, You need to get in touch with Charles Mranz living in Middlebury Vt. He has thousands of hives and has been practicing Bee Venom Theropy for many many years. He has a few books going and from what I understand is willing to share knowledge. I know of people that cant walk with out BVT. I am not sure that he is computer literate in that he is I believe in his 70s or80's George ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:00:38 +0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George_Willy Subject: Re: combining hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > REGARDING RE>combining hives > >Duane Bajema wrote: >>Last week, I had a hive tip over due to strong wind. I lost some >bees and now the hive is is occupied by a relatively small bee >population. I want to join the small population with an existing >strong hive since the small colony would have a difficult time >surviving the winter. > >My question is, how do I proceed here in Northwest Iowa where the >temperatures are already below freezing? Will the two queens do >battle till one survives or do I run the danger of losing both >queens if I join the colonies? > >I have joined a queenless colony with a queenright colony many times >using the newspaper method, but I have never joined two queenright >colonies at this late time of the year. > >Suggestions?< > >This is certainly a difficult time of the year to have to deal with such a >problem. The results of doing nothing would, as you surmise, probably lead to >the winter kill of the weak colony. In this light, I would think that you >would join these colonies at this time of the year without using newspaper. >With temperatures as cold as they are getting now in the midwest US, I doubt >that there would be any intra-hive battles between the workers. The queens >would probably be OK too, for the most part. If they should happen to come >upon each other they might fight, but that's a chance you will have to take. >The alternative would be to open a hive in the cold to go looking for the >queen when the colony would probably be in winter cluster! Hive combining >might work or might not, but leaving it alone surely won't work at all. > >Ted Fischer >Dexter, MI USA Duane or Ted, It might also be easier on both colonys if you seperate the two clusters with a deep super of honey. This will keep both clusters isolated untill each hives scent has intermingled . As the honey is used the two should get closer to each other and benifit from each others heat production. I don't think the two clusters will ever combine in that there are two queens however if they survived till spring this would make a perfect two queen colony, 1 on top and 1 on the bottom. From what I understand this is or was a common practice in the past and in some areas is still used. Supposedly these will produce higher yields of honey while benefiting from each others heat and ventilation etc. Good luck and would like to know how things turn out. To all you out there so willing to find fault, don't be so critical, chill out, move over and make some room. This is the greatest thing that has come to beekeeping since flowers. George ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 01:48:45 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: Honey Flavor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:00 AM 11/7/96 PST, Jim Moore wrote: > Does the flavor of some honey benefit being exposed to >the air? Letting red wines breath to improve the flavor is done >before consumption. Some of the volatiles will be lost and this may tone down the flavour somewhat. This may be good or bad depending on the honey and your individual taste preferences. You could also try creaming it. Many of the flavouring components will get locked up in the crystalline structure of the product and hence become unavailable to the palate - smoothing out the flavour. To cream small quantities (1kg - 2lbs) first start with a totally liquid honey and add a spoonful of creamed honey (buy some if you don't have any - preferably mild flavoured e.g. clover) and mix it throughout the liquid honey. Put it in a cool place (refrigerator will do but not ideal as it is a little too cold) ) and then stir it daily until you reach desired texture. This time will differ depending in the floral source and its glucose/fructose ratio. Peter Bray, Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@netaccess.co.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: top bar hive In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Joel Govostes wrote: > >What is a "top bar hive" ? I've seen these mentioned several times > >Brian Myers > > A top-bar hive is of relatively simple design. It is a long box across > which are laid top-bars, about 30 or so in number. The bees construct > their combs one per top bar. They > Our resident Bee-L veteran on these hives is James Satterfield, who has > built several and is experiencing much success with them. He sent me some > wonderful photos of his neat, orderly apiaries. I look forward to stocking > several new TB hives next spring. I hope this overview is helpful. > There are references on TB hive construction and use available on the Web > (just where I don't recall -- Jim?). JG Joel, you made a wonderful and informative response to the original request. I got my initial information from Paul Magnuson in Pretoria, South Africa. I've also seen a neat article by Ron Brown in the British Beekeeper's Quarterly, No. 44. Eva Crane's incredible book on beekeeping has information on many tbh designs and dimensions. Conrad Berube has some good information on his web page (can't find the URL at the moment). One can also find some good information on tbh's at the following website: http://www.web.net/~dcfrn I've gotten some 30 gallon(US), food grade, plastic drums that I will cut in half lengthwise and try to use as hive bodies next year. They should really work well. Joel, you mentioned being careful in handling the tbh combs which get tougher with age. Wyatt Mangum operates a pollination service in North Carolina by using about 200 Kenya tbh's. He does not change out combs except for damaged or badly shapen combs; hauls the hives around in the back of his pickup truck and also on a trailer. TBH's can be tough! Incidentally, if any club would like to have an exceptional program, Wyatt Mangum presented "The history of Beekeeping" in addition to "The Kenya TBH" at the Beekeeping Seminar at Young Harris, GA USA last summer...and both programs were superb. He has a marvelous beekeeping museum. If the winter gets cold and miserable enough, I may try to develop a web page devoted *exclusively* to tbh's. I would be grateful to any of you on BEE-L who can supply me with references or desirable links. Enough for now. Oh, btw last week a bear got into another tbh of mine at Ellijay some 40 miles further north. Ate everything except about a gallon of wax scraps. I set the hive back up, gathered up the bars, and it's ready to use again. No frames to replace. Wax is in my solar melter where it will melt...probably next year. :) Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:46:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: top bar hive,flames:) In-Reply-To: <199611082049.PAA25019@freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Kelley Rosenlund wrote: > >Our resident Bee-L veteran on these hives is James Satterfield, who has > >built several and is experiencing much success with them. He sent me some > >wonderful photos of his neat, orderly apiaries. I look forward to stocking > >several new TB hives next spring. > > I hope to make two or three hives by spring and stock them by using > them as catch hives when I move hives from blueberry fields. Possibly may > use them to put swarms in during the orange flow. They will sure build the > comb on an orange flow!! My first swarm catching experience was on an orange > years. We watched a swarm settle on an orange tree. We took two frames of Kelley, glad that you had the wonderful swarm-catching experience. One word about using tbh's for swarms: If the tbh's are put out without any comb, there's little surface area inside for a swarm to cling to...especially if it is a large swarm. You might want to put in a few frames with foundation or drawn comb to increase surface area. Using cardboard or duct tape to cover the spaces between the frames seems to work well. Of course, combs can be cut out of frames and tied to bars until the bees quickly attach them. I think that it is important to use a stip of foundation that is no more than about 1/2 inch wide as the starter strip for the tb. The bees seem to build comb starting at the lower end of the foundation, thus a wide strip may have a heavy comb drawn out before it is attached to the tb. I had a comb break loose last year because of this. I find that a brown paper bag that has been dipped in melted beeswax, then cut into half inch strips makes good "foundation". Best wishes in you endeavors. For new beekeepers in countries where the economics are such that they can afford "Langstroth" type hives, I think it's probably good to start with those hives under the watchful eye of an experienced beekeeper. Once you get acquainted with bees, give tbh's a try. I've sold all of my Langstroth type hive stuff, and I'll never go back to them. Neither will Wyatt Mangum. It's a different type of beekeeping... Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 23:58:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Sugar Syrup/Honey Why is the honey at the supermarket so thin? H. Sweet ( OK, Harry ) Santa Rosa, CA (even) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 22:29:38 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Sugar Syrup/Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Why is the honey at the supermarket so thin? Because pasteurized honey is allowed to have one percent more moisture than unpasteurized -- resulting in levels of about 18.6%. Moreover most beekeepers try to have their honey capped before extracting which often results in moisture levels around 15% to 17%. I wonder how the moisture gets up to 18.6 if beekeepers make honey at 17%??? ;) Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 00:02:35 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: top bar hives / Open feeding Are TBHs supered? If the bars themselves make the top cover, they would need to be spaced to be supered. Otherwise, I guess they could go longer? Re: Water diluting the syrup in the barrels, I presume it could be done with a cover that is waterproof but not beeproof?? I like the baggies for hobbyist use. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 00:02:35 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: top bar hive Jim Satterfield wrote: > >What is a "top bar hive" ? I've seen these mentioned several times... >... >If the winter gets cold and miserable enough, I may try to develop a web >page devoted *exclusively* to tbh's. I would be grateful to any of you on >BEE-L who can supply me with references or desirable links. >... >Once you get acquainted with bees, give tbh's a >try. I've sold all of my Langstroth type hive stuff, and I'll never go >back to them. Neither will Wyatt Mangum. It's a different type of >beekeeping... 8 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Sugar Syrup/Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > If I extract this honey it is a light straw color and is "sweeter" > than the normal spring flow honey. If I feed this back to the hive, > do I not get into the question of what effect feeding honey back to > the hive can have? Well, it's hard to say, but it seems that this is likely sugar syrup. If so, then it may contain any drugs you may have fed, and thus should not be eaten by humans. Feeding it back is not likely a *huge* problem. When I was saying that feeding back extracted honey is not a good idea, I perhaps should have made it clearer that normally it is not a fatal practice -- many good beekeepers do it routinely -- but that I have occasionally observed some effects on the bees such as their becoming greasy and poor looking. Of course if this syrup was extracted from the same bees you are feeding, and especially if it still contains drugs, the normal warnings against disease will not apply. > > With 10 hives I end up with up to 9 gallons of this stuff How many gallons of syrup did you feed? This might be a clue... > and I have > some people who really like the taste of this "honey" and want more. > At present I am giving the stuff away in bottles that do not have a > honey label so as to not misrepresent the product. If the syrup was not fed during medicating, it is likely harmless, however it should be sold as syrup, if at all. > p.s.: I have heard of some producers feeding syrup to their bees > year round to increase honey production by the bees placing this > material with honey in the comb. With honey being higher priced > than sugar they are making a killing on their product and the bees > are doing the work. Is this practice illegal in your area or just > immoral? No honest beekeeper would knowingly do this. Where we live, honey is defined in law as being derived from the nectar of flowers. We do try to ensure that the bees use sugar during the build up and wintering periods, but cease feeding before applying supers to hives. I am sure that virtually all beekeepers (and packers) are similarly scrupulous, however there are occasional exceptions. Read the current Speedy Bee for more on this. Hope this helps. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 21:06:44 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Sugar Syrup/Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You can track your feed by putting food color in the syrup. you can see exactywhere the bees put the sugar in the comb. When I do this I use green food color. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 21:26:35 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Honey Show Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In referance to the bees getting smaller on older comb I have a couple of questions I hope can be addressed. 1 Do the smaller bees hatch out in less time? 2 If they do hatch in less time ,are there more of them? 3 Does hatching in less time make them less mature,slowre to develope? This line of information is very interesting to me. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 21:44:23 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Ibuprofen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My first year in beekeeping I was wintering some hives here in Alaska. I got a nieghbor to help me carry my hives from the back yard to the front where there is more sun. He triped dropped his side fo the hive in the snow and twenty degree afternoon. I never saw anybody move so fast in my life, he was gone and there I was being heroic saving my bees. I had no protection at all being used to the weather I had no coat. The bees were not appreciative of my efforts. They ate my lunch, along with my butt. I went to the hospital with hundreds of stings. The hospital said bee stings cause histemines there fore they would give me anti histemines. Benedryl in an I V solution. They told me that for normal bee stings use a good anti histemine right away. If things got worse get help. Consider keeping Epeniphrine shots handy. The lesson? Dont use anti inflammatorys. use antihistemines. Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 20:42:25 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bryan Clements Subject: honey spray dried Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Spray dried powered honey is produced using similar equipment to that used to product milk powder. I researched this a few years ago and found 4 companies that produce powder, each with a different % of Honey. 70%, 60%, 40%, 25%. In each case an anti caking agent was used, Maltodextrin. The final product at 25% honey has a moisture content of 4 % and is very hygroscopic becoming sticky when exposed to moist ingredients or the atmosphere. Bulk Density 0.50+- .03 gm/cc Sieve analysis 1% max retained on 1180pm It is a good way to add value to honey, good luck. regards Bryan Bryan Clements Waikato Honey Products Ltd 8 Short Street KihiKihi New Zealand Fax 64 7 8718885 bryan@honeynz.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 11:05:25 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Searching Bee-l (Correction) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Just in case anyone wishes to use the Listserv search facilities... I posted a message recently about Listserv searches. Unfortunately, due to the lack of a rigorous beta test program, I made a mistake in the following example - searching by subject. //SEARCH JOB ECHO=NO DATABASE SEARCH DD=RULES //Rules DD * SEARCH * IN BEE-L - WHERE SUBJECT CONTAINS (CASH FOR QUESTIONS) - SINCE 01-OCT-91 INDEX PRINT The fifth line when - as in the example - using more than ONE word in the search will produce an error message. If ONE word is used in the search, the search will work but this may not return the correct targets. For example, a search as above using the word CASH would return messages with words in the subject titles such as CASHIER or CASH PAYMENTS. The solution is to use single quote marks instead of the parentheses, so that the fifth line in the above example should read - WHERE SUBJECT CONTAINS 'CASH FOR QUESTIONS' - This will only return messages with that text in the subject header. If anyone would like an amended posting about Listserv searches, let me know and I will forward a copy. Best wishes Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 11:05:26 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Top Bar/Long Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Beekeepers I have a very interesting booklet by Robin Dartington called 'New Beekeeping in a Long Deep Hive'. He describes the design and management of a hive based on 14" x 12" frames. However his management technique uses vertical supering which to my mind rather spoils the simplicity offered by long hives. Root's ABC & XYZ is very dismissive of the notion of bees storing honey horizontally - 'They have the same fault (as top bar hives) in that bees do not care to expand their brood nests sideways; it is natural for the pollen and honey to be above the brood and for the nest to move in an upward direction.' And - '...but in practice colonies in such hives never build large populations or store too much honey'. I would like to try a long hive but I have been dissuaded by such comments. Is it possible to obtain good crops from horizontal hives (without vertical supering)? Best wishes Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 05:07:05 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A3578715D45" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A3578715D45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Taken from sci.agriculture.beekeeping: ------------------------------ -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com --------------A3578715D45 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Path: interaccess!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: KEN LAWRENCE Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update Date: 9 Nov 1996 05:20:40 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5614b8$95t@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <560ekg$rr3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <5611f7$4rl@herald.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.146.208.41 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22ATT (Windows; U; 16bit) Charles I used 1 quart jars with a boardman feeder on the biggest part of my hives. Some I used a top feeder. I lost bees (hive is empty of bees) using both methods. I used 1 cc of wintergreen per qt. sugar syurp. I ordered the oil from Lorann Oils of Lansing Mi. I treated my hives for almost 40-45 days and them taking about 5 quarts each. My hives (double Hivebodies) all had a full hivebody of stores and still have the stores but not a single bee dead or alive in 24 hives. I have 4 single hives that don't have enough bees to cover a single frame. I will let them die out. I have three hives (double bodies) that have a fair amount of bees but doubt if they make the winter as very small amount of Capped brood. I really don't know what has saved the three remaining hives as they are covered with Varroa. Have Apistan strips on now with sticky boards and boards are coated with mites. Had good weather as bees were still scrounging feed around the Honey house. All I know is I will use Apistan from now on. Costly but lesson learned. --------------A3578715D45-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 05:13:02 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------396A245E57F5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------396A245E57F5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Taken from sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Ken lives in Missouri: ---------------------------------- -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com --------------396A245E57F5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Path: interaccess!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!chaos.crhc.uiuc.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: cdg1@concentric.net Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:24:27 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5611f7$4rl@herald.concentric.net> References: <560ekg$rr3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc057035.concentric.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Ken: So we might all learn from your experience... What method did you use to place the oil in your hives ? Where did you obtain your wintergreen oil ? How long was the oil in your hives ? How long have your bees been infected with Varroa mites ? Why are the 28 hives lost ? What saved the 3 hives ? Charles KEN LAWRENCE wrote: >Looks like I have learned a very costly lesson. I am a man 53 years old >and have had bees since 1971 and should have known better. I put all my >bees in jeopardy by using WINTERGREEN OIL. Looks like I may be able to >save three hives out of 31 hives. I have gotten Apistan Strips on these >hives now. I can not see where the oil had done anything to the Varroa. >I put apistan strips on one hive Wed. nite with a Sticky Board and removed >the board Thur 24 hours later. I had 3 rows of mites the whole lenght of >the board plus some scattered across the board. I would be safe to say >they adveraged 60-70 mites per Square inch. I have sent 2 samples of 50 >bees each off to be tested and will relay the answer when I hear >something. I thought I had done everything I was to do with the OIL. I >will use Apistan from now on. The article I read on the oil sounded good >so I tried it and LOST. > A Sicker Beekeeper --------------396A245E57F5-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 06:44:22 -0500 Reply-To: James D Satterfield Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: TBHs Comments: To: Gerry Visel In-Reply-To: <19961108.202558.2847.1.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Gerry Visel wrote: > With your TBHs, do you gotta destroy the combs to get the honey? > Restart every year? Why TBHs? Gerry, I only press the combs that have the surplus honey. I leave about 15 bars on each of my colonies for overwintering. I also use a divider board or a sheet of newspaper to reduce the volume in the hive. The bees rebuild comb each year that I will harvest as surplus. I made my hives 20 bars long, though perhaps 30 would be better. Still, I am able to remove bars of comb that have been capped at any time I want. Why TBH's?? These are a few of the reasons: l. No supers to lift, frames to nail together, foundation to wire in, sticky combs and supers to hassel with after honeyflows. 2. Bees are easier to work and are "happier". :) 3. I press the honey out of virgin combs and it is, in my opinion, better than honey extracted from old combs and exposed to air during extraction. I get less, but better, honey and more beeswax. I like beeswax! 4. The tbh's are cheap. I've had bears raid two of my hives at Ellijay. I simply pick up the tb's, harvest any wax left, merge any bees I can find, and put in a 1/2" strip of starter foundation which I make...then it's ready to go again. No frames to replace, foundation to buy, etc. There are many other reasons, but this type of beekeeping simply better fits my aims and philosophy. Queen rearing is a snap with tbh's, for example. I'll read in a file which will have some more explanation and comments. I may eventually establish a website devoted exclusively to tbh beekeeping. Top Bar Hives TBH's are wonderful once a beekeeper gets over the idea that bees must have a hive made of certain materials, etc. I bought some spruce and masonite for the first half dozen I made. It wound up costing about $12.00 for a hive which included 20 bars. I've since started garnering scrap or discarded materials, and except for 2" drywall screws and glue, I'm not spending anything now. I bought a couple of gallons of rejected paint at Home Depot for $3.00 per gallon, but I've found at least 10 gallons of paint on the side of the road. If I ride through the residential areas on Sunday evenings, with trash pickup on Monday, I find all sorts of usable stuff. I found a sheet of 3/4" A-C plywood (4'x8') that was just dirty a little, for example. I try to avoid any materials that might be treated lumber or perhaps have any type of insecticide associated with it. We in the good ole USA waste so much stuff! As a result of this, I have hives that are white, Cape Hatteras blue, Cape Cod red, beige, a mud brown, etc. Bottoms are of masonite, plywood, chipboard, flakeboard...whatever is at hand. If a board isn't wide enough for a side, I piece it out to make it wider. The bees don't care. I want to try some large plastic (or metal) drums cut lengthwise. Top bars would rest on the exposed edges...combs built would be crescent shaped. It should work very well...think it is being done in South Africa. SO...I'm going the frugal route and recycling when possible. I've tried cardboard sheets for covers, but I haven't found a good way to waterproof them to my satisfaction. I've settled for 5-v tin. I paint it a light color to reflect the heat. It's noisy, but it will last. If you buy the tin, it's about $2.00 for a piece that is a good size for a cover. I buy a 12' piece ($7.50) and get three covers out of it, plus a cover for a nuc. I put a brick in the center of the hive, put the tin on, then use 4 bricks to bend the tin over and hold it down. Haven't had a cover blow off yet. The tin could be tied on. You can go from a Langstroth hive to a tbh by cutting out comb and tying it to the tb's until the bees attach it. I noted on the BEE-L earlier that someone had suggested using rubber bands to hold comb in frames until the bees attach it. That might work with tb's, but you'd need to put a u-shaped piece of screen wire or paper or something on the bottom to keep the bands from cutting into the comb. If you want to hive a swarm, it's no different from Langstroth hives, though I'd try to give a bar with brood to help jumpstart the swarm; moreover, providing some bars with drawn combs gives the swarm more surface areas to cling to and helps them set up shop. I'll be glad to answer any questions that you might have about tbh's from my limited perspective. -end of file- Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 07:04:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: top bar hives / Open feeding Comments: To: Gerry Visel In-Reply-To: <19961108.205416.2847.3.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Gerry Visel wrote: > Are TBHs supered? If the bars themselves make the top cover, they > would need to be spaced to be supered. Otherwise, I guess they could go > longer? Gerry, I'm not clear on the meaning of your second sentence. Perhaps the following comments will clear up your questions. TBH's can be supered if one is willing to lift supers. I put a notch on one side of the center of each of my tb's. Notch is about 3/8x3/4 inches. Though I normally keep the notches covered, I sometimes open some toward the front for more entrances or in the winter for ventilation. These notches can provide holes for movement into a super. If a bar is removed at the front or really in any place, then there is a large gap whereby bees can move up easily. This can result in combs being drawn out thickly on either side of the space and a replacement comb being inserted. To keep spacing, I have made up a queen excluder top bar which provides good access and with comb built below the bar, proper comb space is maintained. I've done a little supering, but mostly with 5-bar deep supers which I've used in queen rearing to get queen cells finished or started. A 5-bar super on top of a 5-bar nuc works well to get combs drawn for expansion of colonies or replacing old combs. If bars are shifted, removed when capped, honey cut off the bar, and the bar replaced, there's no need to super. I have tried a couple of 10-bar shallow supers, and they do work well...but they are additional pieces of equipment that require storing when they aren't in use, etc. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 07:24:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar/Long Hives Comments: To: Joe Hemmens In-Reply-To: <199611091102.LAA15234@saturn.ndirect.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Joe Hemmens wrote: > Dear Beekeepers > > I have a very interesting booklet by Robin Dartington called 'New > Beekeeping in a Long Deep Hive'. He describes the design and > management of a hive based on 14" x 12" frames. Joe, with tbh's there are, of course, bars only... no frames. > > However his management technique uses vertical supering which to my > mind rather spoils the simplicity offered by long hives. > I agree. > Root's ABC & XYZ is very dismissive of the notion of bees storing > honey horizontally - > > 'They have the same fault (as top bar hives) in that bees do not care > to expand their brood nests sideways; it is natural for the pollen > and honey to be above the brood and for the nest to move in an upward > direction.' It seems to help some colonies to "spread the brood" since they may become honey bound. Other colonies will go like gangbusters. There may also be differences in the strains of A. mellifera...I'm going to try some Caucasians next year for comparision with the Italians. > And - > > '...but in practice colonies in such hives never build large populations > or store too much honey'. Some hives will build huge populations...become "meat" colonies for splitting and boosting. Just wish that I didn't have to put up with mites and their effects on the bees...then I'd get a better idea of what they can do, unfettered, in a tbh. Never had any problem with any hive of any type 'storing too much honey' :) Seriously, I am willing to get less honey and more beeswax. > I would like to try a long hive but I have been dissuaded by such > comments. Is it possible to obtain good crops from horizontal hives > (without vertical supering)? Joe, give me next year to give you a better answer on this question...if I can keep the mites at bay...if the spring weather is good...if overwintering goes well...if the poplar trees bloom...if there isn't too much rain... Gee, I sound like a farmer! Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 08:58:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: top bar hives - techniques Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Are TBHs supered? If the bars themselves make the top cover, they >would need to be spaced to be supered. Otherwise, I guess they could go >longer? > ><...> > >Gerry and the other Visels at >Visel7@juno.com >Winnebago, Illinois, USA Hi Gerry. Normally these types of hives are not supered -- the bees just expand the nest horizontally. Roger Morse at Cornell has oft insisted that colonies do not grow well this way, and so has never promoted the long-idea hives. I suppose the expansion vertically is easier and faster, as heat from the cluster rises to the upper parts of the hive. However, if you have ever seen "wild" colonies in odd cavities or in the walls of a house, you will note that colonies forced to expand horizontally can and will store prodigious amounts of honey nontheless! My own suspicion is that it is more the bees (traits) than the container shape which counts. It is generally found that TBH colonies don't get as large as those in frame hives, but I am not convinced this always the rule. (As James said, some colonies are "meat producers" (i.e. prolific) more than honey producers; this is easily noticed in frame hives, too.) Yields are expected to be somewhat reduced than with frame hives, as surplus combs must be constructed each year by TBH colonies. Same goes for comb-honey producers in regular hives. Regarding the horizontal idea, it is true that normally in "vertical" hives we see pollen above brood, and surplus honey above that. But note that what the bees are doing is establishing the brood nest closest to the entrance, with pollen beyond, and honey farthest away from the *entrance*. THis is the typical order of things in a hive. By having the entrance at one end of the TBH, the honey you harvest is found at the opposite end. Or, if the entrance is situated at the center of one (long) side of the hive, the surplus will be stored at both ends, with brood nest in the center. Supering is possible, as James has related, but one of the nice things about TBH's is that you don't need to store all those supers and worry about wax moths. To ensure that no brood gets into the surplus combs, vertically-oriented excluders can be slid into the hive at the edge of the brood nest. I believe this is being done by some users with success. A nice honey-filled comb at the edge of the brood nest will usually act as a practical queen excluder in many cases, tho'. It is not always the huge populations that get the best crops. With careful selection and queen breeding with these hives (pretty straightforward as Jim has demonstrated) they have potential of producing decent crops. On average the yields won't be as high as in frame hives, especially the first year. Bear in mind, tho', that labor is much lower, and you don't have all that lifting - this point is much in favor of the TBH. Another disadvantage is that one must remove honey more often, since tiering of storage space is not usually practiced. One could make the hives good and long, with 30-35 bars for instance, to give the bees substantially more room. Extra depth is another possibility, but since the combs are only attached at the top, there might be the problem of too much weight and comb breakage. A depth close to a langstroth deep seems about right. I have been surprised at how the bees will make almost all worker-comb, especially at the outset. Later as the nest grows, you will find more drone/storage comb. (They will do this on your expensive brood foundation too, if they want! Unfortunately bees don't always respect our dictates.) Eventually you can simply consolidate the best (mostly worker) combs in the brood area for the queen's laying. The trick is in getting straight combs built. If the colony starts making wavy or cross combs, these can be removed and a bar (with wax guide) placed between two straight combs; then the resulting new comb will be constructed nice and straight. Well so much for that... Regards, JG ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 09:24:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: DADANT CATALOG I will add a vote for Dadant keeping its retail catalog. An awful lot of beekeepers (myself included) started off with a mail order kit, and in my case it was from Dadant. I still do a fair amount of mail order buying. Not every Yellow Pages lists a beekeeping supply house, and in my case, the nearest retail dealer is a good hour's drive away. I'm sure many other beekeepers have longer drives. Moreover, a dealer can't have everything. that can be listed in a catalog. Every firm has its own unique items. How are us retail customers supposed to find out about them without catalogs? Yeah, a catalog lets everone else know your prices. That hasn't stopped the rest of the catalog merchants from being successful. Stick with your catalog. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 06:08:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Sugar Syrup/Honey >Why is the honey at the supermarket so thin? Depends on what honey you compare the honey to, honey varies from very high moisture to very low. I have seen it so low in desert sweet clover honey, still in the liquid form, that it could not be poured out of a 5 gallon can without heating it. I was told by old times who unloaded rail cars of this honey that the bottom cans would be ripped on nails and no honey would leak out. Normally in the old days when tin cans were less then perfect it was not unusual to have many leakers in a rail car and a real sticky mess to clean up before the car could be released. At the same time I have seen beautiful white honey from our fall Blue Curl flow that would crystallize hard as a rock with moisture so high if set out in the sun would blow the tops off 55 gallon drums and foam up and run over. Every major honey packer that I have ever visited with in the US has some method to adjust the moisture. Most blend high moisture honey with low to produce a uniform project. Some add moisture direct in the processing procedures, some with the filter aid, or with steam on the bottling line. Is it right, well they all would tell you they don't set the standards, and I would think that is about as right as the tomato canner who adds worm parts because the standard allows it and his crop came in clean. (None do that I know of.) Anyway for sure I have never met a honey packer who did not claim that there was actually loss from the honey that enters the packing line and the amount that comes out. I believe that is true having some experience packing honey and know it was in the co-op I was an officer in and also know the loss reported by the Sue Bee Honey CoOp each year. I was once a elected officer of a now failed honey co-op and had much opportunity of seeing behind the scenes of how honey is processed commercially. Some beekeepers who were not producers for this old time honey packer formed a co-op and hired a manager and took over so they would have a home for their honey. I stuck around to protect the long term interests of myself and the old time producers and I was elected Treasurer and left a few years later because of problems with the books and the manager that could not be resolved between me and my conscience. Anyway for many years I sold honey to the previous owner and we were friends in business. After he sold out to the co-op they naturally had to enlarge the plant on borrowed money, (their downfall), and the original owner stayed on to oversee the project. On one of my trips to deliver honey my friend who was proud of his work on the enlarged plant and the new 1st class super fast bottling line he could never afford when he owned the plant. As he showed me around the lower levels of the plant that the hot honey gravitated down to from the upper level melting ovens to be flash heated and mixed with the filtered aid which was diatomaceous earth, a dry power, and then pressure filtered, then pumped to the bottling tanks and cooled prior to packing. I noticed a wooden handle that connected to a chain and followed that chain to my amusement to a regular old time flush toilet tank mounted on high up the side of the wall from which a pipe extended to the mixing tank. And sure enough he had that tank flow adjusted so he knew how much water gushed down with each yank of the chain to mix with the dry filter aid. I got to pull the chain several times and it was a kick as the sound was the same of the old time flush toilets of by gone days. Eventually the tank was replaced with a nice new stainless steal tank and electronic brains to regulate the flow. Before you flood this tread with comments I should also say that every country has a little different angle on honey and different food standards and laws pertaining to what they can and can not do. In Japan I have been told it is quite normal to actually take the honey apart separating everything out, sugars, moisture, and more, then putting it all back together according to their own specifications and ending up with several byproducts and the original pound of honey. I have sampled some of the by products, the essence of honey, and liquors made from what they call the washing process, and must admit they were very interesting. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. 111096 --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Where the wild bee never flew, ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 10:49:42 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Top Bar/Long Hives On Sat, 9 Nov 1996 07:24:33 -0500 James D Satterfield writes: >On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Joe Hemmens wrote: > >> Dear Beekeepers >> >> I have a very interesting booklet by Robin Dartington called 'New >> Beekeeping in a Long Deep Hive'. He describes the design and >> management of a hive based on 14" x 12" frames. > >Joe, with tbh's there are, of course, bars only... no frames. > >> >> However his management technique uses vertical supering which to my >> mind rather spoils the simplicity offered by long hives. >> > >I agree. Joe, Jim, and all, I think I'd like to try some TBHs in the spring. Let us know the url when you get the pages together. Include some artwork/pictures if you can. It sounds like you have some flexibility with dimensions. What works for you? (Bar length, # of bars, depth, etc.) I presume the bars are rectangular cross section, and "self-spacing" (butting against each other side by side?) Have you ever tried extracting a TBH "frame"? My two framer has expandded metal baskets that would probably do it fine. The frames aren't supporting anything then. I am corresponding with a beekeeper, Dr. Vladimir Obolonkin, from Minsk, Belarus, who uses very large frames, and a very long hive body which uses up to 24 frames, 25 cm wide x 41 cm deep (10 x 14 inches.) They are thus tall, wide, and thin front-to-back, compared to langstroths. He then supers on top of that with what sound like "regular" sized supers. (The extra HB width is covered with boards.) I guess I didn't expect a world standard, but this BEE-L sure brings to light many (working) ways of doing the same thing. (Ask five beekeepers how to something, and get six ways to do it!) And they all do it that way because it works well for them! We can all learn... Thanks for sharing. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 09:02:10 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Honey Flavor In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19961108165248.3227de40@srcmain.dfst.csiro.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I find that comb honey ( and freshly extracted honey ) has a slightly sour taste which disappears after processing. The processed honey has a more bland taste which is not as interesting as the sweet and sour taste of the original. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 09:22:53 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: open feeding Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have found that if the spring is cold and wet that bulk feeding is not very successful. In the fall the weather seems almost irrelevent - the bees rob everything in sight! The hivetop feeders seem better in the spring and since I have them, I now use them in the fall too. When I was using the bulk feeding method I cut holes in the side of the barrels and wired the lids on so that the cows ( the bees were in a pasture on a dairy farm ) could not get at the syrup. The holes were large enough to provide access to the bees. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:54:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: Drunk bees behave strangely MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable " Perhaps the bees are drunk? Syrup will ferment if water gets into it, but the bees will still take it sometimes. " --------------------------------- Yes bees effectively get drunk and when drunk they behave very = strangely. I do not know if they get drunk by drinking fermented syrup = or only by breathing alcohol vapors from fermented syrup but fermented = syrup can make them drunk. I am a bee breeder. For years I have been puzzled by some mating nucs = in which I was finding the majority of the population dead or dying from = apparently drowning in the syrup can inside the mating hive. I finally = found the explanation this year, after 20 year observing this = phenomenon. (You will say I am quite slow!). At first sight it looks = like the whole colony is committing suicide by voluntarily trying to = drown into the syrup can ! I finally realized that in all cases, = leftover syrup had fermented in the can and there was a strong alcohol = odor in the mating nuc ! Jean-Pierre CHAPLEAU chapleau@interlinx.qc.ca 1282, rang 8, St-Adrien (QC) Canada J0A 1C0 (819) 828-3396; fax: (819) 828-0357 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 15:34:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: [Fwd: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] Hello Barry, Sorry to hear of your loss. Feeding bees is an art that most beekeepers who feed large amounts of sugar in any form learn over the years of the pitfalls. This is not to say that is what damaged your bees and I am sure you are doing the right thing by changing your operation. Here in California we seldom feed to gain winter stores, or anytime the bees are not rearing brood, and if we do some beekeepers will use protein patties to get a little brood going. Anytime we feed sugar we are putting our bees to work and prematurely ageing them and if there are not new bees hatching out to replace the one's that will die the population will take a dramatic downward path that could be disastrous in time. In my experience fall feed should be heavy inverted syrup so the bees do not have to invert it and use up their limited resources of what ever they add to nectar to invert it, and the energy to do it. And if possible should be done when there is still good flying weather and pollen plants available. There are also some natural flows in the fall and other times that the bees because of poor pollen or other conditions will not rear brood. Every few years we get a early Manzenita flow from one or more of the 50 verities that grow here in the mountains and coast that comes late in the winter before other plants are blooming. I have made as much as 60# per hive and after extracting it found that the bees had dwindled down to the size of a good nuc or large handful as they had little pollen income and because the big over wintered clusters were mostly old bees that were sacrificed to make the honey. I have also found out the hard way that leaving large amounts of honey on the bees retards their growth in the spring and I am sure this is because of the loss of heat and the btu's it takes to keep the hive warm when they have several supers of cold honey above the brood nest in the early spring. I have come to the conclusion that large amounts of honey are is not good food for the bees and not necessary in intensively managed hives. Here in Central California bees do not winter well under normal conditions because of the amount of flight time they get when there is no flowers to work and the lack of cold weather to make them cluster and go dormant which seems to be important. To overcome this normal decline in populations many beekeepers winter their hives with only adequate food reserves and plan to feed sugar syrup as early in the spring as there are flowers to increase brood rearing. Many beekeepers winter in single hive bodies and put the supers back after the bottoms are full of brood. > I used 1 quart jars with a boardman feeder on the biggest part of my >hives. Some I used a top feeder. I lost bees (hive is empty of bees) >using both methods. I used 1 cc of wintergreen per qt. sugar syurp. I >ordered the oil from Lorann Oils of Lansing Mi. I treated my hives for >almost 40-45 days and them taking about 5 quarts each. My hives (double >Hivebodies) all had a full hivebody of stores and still have the stores >but not a single bee dead or alive in 24 hives. I have 4 single hives >that don't have enough bees to cover a single frame. I will let them die >out. I have three hives (double bodies) that have a fair amount of bees >but doubt if they make the winter as very small amount of Capped brood. I >really don't know what has saved the three remaining hives as they are >covered with Varroa. Have Apistan strips on now with sticky boards and >boards are coated with mites. Had good weather as bees were still >scrounging feed around the Honey house. All I know is I will use Apistan >from now on. Costly but lesson learned. I have seen and heard this story many times and that was without the addition of anything to the sugar. But only time will tell if others report the same problems adding chemicals and oils to their sugar syrups. I would be surprised if 1 cc in a quart of feed would even have an effect on the mites, but you must admit that you reduced their numbers the hard way. ttul, the OLd Drone --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ All bees are looking for bargains in nature's supermarket ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 18:02:00 SAT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jorge Contador Subject: Re: Searching Bee-l (Correction) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Just in case anyone wishes to use the Listserv search facilities... > >I posted a message recently about Listserv searches. Unfortunately, >due to the lack of a rigorous beta test program, I made a mistake in >the following example - searching by subject. > >//SEARCH JOB ECHO=NO >DATABASE SEARCH DD=RULES >//Rules DD * >SEARCH * IN BEE-L - > WHERE SUBJECT CONTAINS (CASH FOR QUESTIONS) - > SINCE 01-OCT-91 >INDEX >PRINT > >The fifth line when - as in the example - using more than ONE word in >the search will produce an error message. > >If ONE word is used in the search, the search will work but this may >not return the correct targets. For example, a search as above >using the word CASH would return messages with words in the subject >titles such as CASHIER or CASH PAYMENTS. > >The solution is to use single quote marks instead of the parentheses, > so that the fifth line in the above example should read - > >WHERE SUBJECT CONTAINS 'CASH FOR QUESTIONS' - > >This will only return messages with that text in the subject header. > >If anyone would like an amended posting about Listserv searches, let >me know and I will forward a copy. > >Best wishes > >Joe Hello Joe Please, I would like this about Listserv searches. my address is : contador@reuna.cl thank you very much best Joge Contador Santiago , Chile ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:29:23 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS Subject: Bee venom therapy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone interested in bee venom therapy might consider joining the nonprofit "American Apitherapy Society". They publish a quarterly called "Bee Informed" in addition to all sorts of related books, pamphlets etc. They can be reached at: - The American Apitherapy Society Box 54 Hartland Four Corners VT 05049 USA Phone: 802 436 2708 Fax:802 436 2827 They also have a web site at: - http://www.beesting.com where you can connect to other related sites. Hope this helps and good luck. Hans ************************************************************** Hans-Ulrich THOMAS. Beekeeper & collector of books about: - bees and beekeeping - ants (yes these small little buggers!) - nature printing e-mail: hthomas@solid.phys.ethz.ch CompuServe: 100045,2556 Fax: ++41 1 633 10 77 ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Barry Birkey tokk this from sci ag....... >Charles > I used 1 quart jars with a boardman feeder on the biggest part of my >hives. Some I used a top feeder. I lost bees (hive is empty of bees) >using both methods. I used 1 cc of wintergreen per qt. sugar syurp. I >ordered the oil from Lorann Oils of Lansing Mi. I treated my hives for >scrounging feed around the Honey house. All I know is I will use Apistan >from now on. Costly but lesson learned. I predicted this would happen! When James Amrine (http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa.htm) put the essential oils info to the 'net', he stressed the 3 methods of administering essential oils all went hand in hand. It would not be succesful if only one method was used. This person used one method, in syrup, and was partially wrong to use syrup in a hive top feeder. Until someone who has used it correctly over a period of time comes along to tell us it doesn't work, then I suggest we keep an open mind. Comments? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:37:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Honey Show Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jerry Fries wrote >In referance to the bees getting smaller on older comb I have a couple of >questions I hope can be addressed. >1 Do the smaller bees hatch out in less time? >2 If they do hatch in less time ,are there more of them? >3 Does hatching in less time make them less mature,slowre to develope? . There is no basic difference in the gestation period. All that is happening is the bees are smaller, because of a smaller cell hole, and shorter depth of cell. It's the old business of "fish grow to fit the size of the water" a bigger pond produces bigger fish! **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:37:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Honey Flavor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter Bray, wrote >To cream small quantities (1kg - 2lbs) first start with a totally liquid >honey and add a spoonful of creamed honey (buy some if you don't have any - >preferably mild flavoured e.g. clover) and mix it throughout the liquid >honey. Put it in a cool place (refrigerator will do but not ideal as it is >a little too cold) ) and then stir it daily until you reach desired texture. >This time will differ depending in the floral source and its >glucose/fructose ratio. My information says a temp of approx 50-55 degrees is ideal. I have a question regarding creaming. My book says to avoid stirring in air! Why, does anyone know? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 19:38:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar/Long Hives Comments: To: Gerry Visel In-Reply-To: <19961109.094724.6863.0.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Gerry Visel wrote: > > Joe, Jim, and all, > > I think I'd like to try some TBHs in the spring. Let us know the url > when you get the pages together. Include some artwork/pictures if you > can. It sounds like you have some flexibility with dimensions. What > works for you? (Bar length, # of bars, depth, etc.) I presume the bars > are rectangular cross section, and "self-spacing" (butting against each > other side by side?) Gerry and others, about the only critical thing in a tbh is the width of the tb. For Italian bees the bar needs to be 35mm wide. For African bees it is 32mm wide...Paul Magnuson told me I could plane my bars down when African bees got to my area. ;). Width of bars and number of bars can vary. I have most of my hives with 20 bars. Pauls original plans were for hives about 900mm long; my hives are 750mm long. I do have one hive that I made from a pair of old cabinet doors...it gave a hive that is much deeper and has 24 bars if I recall correctly. It produces some huge combs. I also made up some queen mating nucs that have 5 bars that are half the length of a regular bar in my full-size hives. If I want a bar of bees and brood for the nuc, I just take a full size bar, cut a gap of comb out of the center, and then saw the bar in half. Presto! Two bars with comb, etc. to put in the mating nuc with a queen cell or virgin queen. Try *that* with a frame from a conventional hive! > > Have you ever tried extracting a TBH "frame"? My two framer has > expandded metal baskets that would probably do it fine. The frames > aren't supporting anything then. Oh, there are various things that could be tried. How about resting a comb and its bar on a piece of sandscreen (hardware cloth) on top of a bucket after uncapping the comb...sling it round and round. Might work, but then I wouldn't have the beeswax as part of the harvest and...I'd have to put the sticky comb somewhere. Nope, been there and done that...no more for me. > I am corresponding with a beekeeper, Dr. Vladimir Obolonkin, from > Minsk, Belarus, who uses very large frames, and a very long hive body > which uses up to 24 frames, 25 cm wide x 41 cm deep (10 x 14 inches.) > They are thus tall, wide, and thin front-to-back, compared to > langstroths. I sent Vlad some photos and information about what I have been doing. He told me of some tb type of hive in use in his country if I understood correctly. Eva Crane mentions a type of hive used in some region over there. > I guess I didn't expect a world standard, but this BEE-L sure brings > to light many (working) ways of doing the same thing. (Ask five > beekeepers how to something, and get six ways to do it!) And they all > do it that way because it works well for them! > > We can all learn... > Yes, you are quite correct here. I've gotten a wealth of information from all of you on BEE-L! Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 20:50:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Air in creamed honey Why keep air out of creamed honey batches? If air gets into a creamed honey mixture, the air will float to the top of the jar and make a head of foam much like that you can get with extracted honey. And, just like extracted honey, foam in creamed honey is considered a major cosmetic fault. When I make creamed honey, I let the seed/honey mixture stand for an hour or two after mixing to let the air bubbles rise to the surface before pouring the jars. Since I pour from the bottom of the mixing pail, all the foam winds up in the last jar. That jar goes on our kitchen table. I also do not stir creamed honey after the intial mixing; this to avoid introducing air to the mix. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 21:20:23 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Bee venom therapy There is an ad in Bee Culture from Honeybee Health Products, PO Box 4326-C, Burlington, VT 05406 USA. E-mail: beevenom@aol.com phone: 1-800-603-3577 The published Charlie Mraz's "Health and the Honeybee" and have videos, books, bees by mail, and other supplies for apitherapy. Not an endorsement, just info. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 21:20:23 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Honey Flavor On Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:37:17 -0500 David Eyre writes: >Peter Bray, wrote >>To cream small quantities (1kg - 2lbs) first start with a totally >liquid >>honey and add a spoonful of creamed honey (buy some if you don't have >any - >>preferably mild flavoured e.g. clover) and mix it throughout the >liquid >>honey. Put it in a cool place (refrigerator will do but not ideal as >it is >>a little too cold) ) and then stir it daily until you reach desired >texture. >>This time will differ depending in the floral source and its >>glucose/fructose ratio. > >My information says a temp of approx 50-55 degrees is ideal. > I have a question regarding creaming. My book says to avoid >stirring >in air! Why, does anyone know? P.O.___, Swedish beekeeper, (my memory is around here someplace!) has a good page on making crystalized honey at http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/krist_e.htm, (along with some other VERY neat bee pages, including lots of pictures!) He says to stir IMMEDIATELY after the starter is added, or it will be destroyed. It is restirred every 12 hours. No comments on "adding air." Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 20:06:25 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BRIAN HENSEL Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Nachbaur wrote: > > Hello Barry, > > Sorry to hear of your loss. Feeding bees is an art that most beekeepers > who feed large amounts of sugar in any form learn over the years of the > pitfalls. This is not to say that is what damaged your bees and I am > sure you are doing the right thing by changing your operation. > > Here in California we seldom feed to gain winter stores, or anytime the > bees are not rearing brood, and if we do some beekeepers will use > protein patties to get a little brood going. > > Anytime we feed sugar we are putting our bees to work and prematurely > ageing them and if there are not new bees hatching out to replace the > one's that will die the population will take a dramatic downward path > that could be disastrous in time. > > In my experience fall feed should be heavy inverted syrup so the bees do > not have to invert it and use up their limited resources of what ever > they add to nectar to invert it, and the energy to do it. And if > possible should be done when there is still good flying weather and > pollen plants available. > Hi Andy! Can you explain to me what inverted syrup is and how does one make it? Does it mean that you mix it very thick,or boil it? Can you give me your recipe that you have used successfully? THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!! BRIAN HENSEL bjhensel@metro.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 19:16:08 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Drunk bees behave strangely In-Reply-To: <01BBCE3E.A1B1D120@slpp-23.interlinx.qc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Jean-Pierre Chapleau wrote: > " Perhaps the bees are drunk? Syrup will ferment if > water gets into it, but the bees will still take it sometimes. " > --------------------------------- > > Yes bees effectively get drunk and when drunk they behave very strangely. I do not know if they get drunk by drinking fermented syrup or only by breathing alcohol vapors from fermented syrup but fermented syrup can make them drunk. > > I am a bee breeder. For years I have been puzzled by some mating nucs in which I was finding the majority of the population dead or dying from apparently drowning in the syrup can inside the mating hive. I finally found the explanation this year, aft r 20 year observing this phenomenon. (You will say I am quite slow!). At first sight it looks like the whole colony is committing suicide by voluntarily trying to drown into the syrup can ! I finally realized that in all cases, leftover syrup had ferm nted in the can and there was a strong alcohol odor in the mating nuc ! > Hi Jean- Pierre, I have seen the same problem. When using division board feeders and migritory top , you can get water into your feeders.In Washington State USA we get plenty of rain. So you have to protect the bees from the water and need to ventilate at the same time. I feel we loose more bees to moisture in the hive than anything else.We were loosing bees in the winter long before the mites showed up. I feel that well kept bees will winter over if they are given what they really need.Most of the books give us the info that we need. We just need to do it. Some areas are very cold and need extra protection. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:05:45 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Air in creamed honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Why keep air out of creamed honey batches? > > If air gets into a creamed honey mixture, the air will float to the > top of the jar and make a head of foam much like that you can get > with extracted honey. And, just like extracted honey, foam in > creamed honey is considered a major cosmetic fault. > > When I make creamed honey, I let the seed/honey mixture stand for an > hour or two after mixing to let the air bubbles rise to the surface > before pouring the jars. Since I pour from the bottom of the mixing > pail, all the foam winds up in the last jar. That jar goes on our > kitchen table. I also do not stir creamed honey after the intial > mixing; this to avoid introducing air to the mix. This is all true, but if you can introduce air by having a leak in your honey pump and the honey is cold, sometimes you will get really nice creamy honey. I know one beekeepers whose trick to keep his customers coming back was to put the honey through a hammermill! Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:16:14 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > This person used one method, in syrup, and was partially wrong to > use syrup in a hive top feeder. Until someone who has used it > correctly over a period of time comes along to tell us it doesn't > work, then I suggest we keep an open mind. > Comments? I agree. Essential oils promise some -- perhaps considerable -- assistance in dealing with many bee diseases, including even foulbrood. The problem is that methods of application, acceptable levels, toxicity to bees (and people) and many other important factors surrounding use in bee hives have not been established with sufficient certainty to make oils a foolproof and routine treatment. We are still at the experimental stage -- at least in America -- and we are likely in for some surprises, both pleasant, and not. Anyone using these recommendations should restrict the number of hives in the test to what he/she can afford to lose. IMO anyhow. BTW, did anyone read the article in Speedy Bee about Apistan resistance in Switzerland? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 21:47:59 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Top Bar/Long Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Hemmens wrote: > 'They have the same fault (as top bar hives) in that bees do not care > to expand their brood nests sideways; it is natural for the pollen > and honey to be above the brood and for the nest to move in an upward > direction.' > > And - > > '...but in practice colonies in such hives never build large populations > or store too much honey'. > Joe, There is at least some truth to these comments. I have only one 'Top Bar' hive, and I do not use it regularly. Sometimes it has been slower to build up than normal vertical hives, but not always. I made it just to give it a try. One thing I did do a bit differently than standard was to make a few top bars with one-half a bee space openning on each side. Then in the fall I was able to add standard supers and move the bees up for a wintering attempt. (The top width of my TBH was made the same as the length of a standard super.) Crops do not in my experience are not only less than with standard equipment, but extracting is comparatively easy. But, I would still encourage you to try one or two just for fun. You will learn some new things. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 09:13:26 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: Honey Flavor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>David Eyre >>My information says a temp of approx 50-55 degrees is ideal. This temp (14 degs Celsius) varies from one honey to the next. It is mostly a function of decreasing temperature speeding up the crystallisation process versus increasing viscosity slowing down the crystallisation process. Where the optimum point is, depends on other factors in the honey affecting crystallising speed and viscosity. Usually viscosity is mostly affected by moisture but other factors can play a part, eg. a honey may be thixotropic or some protein levels may affect viscosity etc. >> I have a question regarding creaming. My book says to avoid >>stirring >>in air! Why, does anyone know? It may help speed the crystallisation process - small air bubbles giving a nucleus for crystals to start on. The downside of this is the air will rise to the surface when the product warms up - looks gross! >Gerry and the other Visels at >Visel7@juno.com > P.O.___, Swedish beekeeper, (my memory is around here someplace!) has a [snip] > He says to stir IMMEDIATELY after the starter is added, or it will be >destroyed. It is restirred every 12 hours. No comments on "adding air." Stirring is (should be) done for two reasons. 1. If there is any inconsistency in the crystal growth, (due to poor spread of the original seed or starter in the mix) stiring helps to redistribute new crystal matter to fresh uncrystallised liquid honey - improving the consistency and speeding up the total process. 2. The final consistency of the product is determined by the stirring (if all other factors are equal) If all the crystallisation is allowed to take place without any stirring, then all the crystals will interlock together and the final product will be very hard and difficult to use. If the product is stirred until all the available material for crystallisation is used up, there will be no mechanical bonds between crystals and therefore the product will be, and remain, totally soft. If you have a very hard creamed honey, 40 seconds or so in the microwave for 500gms (time varies depending on power of microwave, ambient starting temp of honey etc.) will break the crystal bonds and the product will soften up - and not go hard again, even when stored in a refrigerator. With no microwave, keep at a few degrees above room temp. for 2-3 days to get the same effect. In New Zealand around 70% of table honey is sold as creamed. Annual per capita consumption of honey is 1.95 kilos - around 5 lbs!!. This compares with consumption in Germany of 1.3 kgs, Australia .9 kgs and the US .54 kilos. We think much of the reason for our high consumption of honey is due to the N.Z. consumer's acceptance and usage of creamed honey. Peter Bray, Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@netaccess.co.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 09:30:30 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: Sugar syrup/Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:48 PM 11/6/96 +0000, Rick Grossman wrote: >This one should get plenty of comment. To my understanding, nectar is >sucrose, a di-sacharide (sp?) which is then converted by the bees with >invertase enzymes into mono-sacharides (again sp?). Sugar is also sucrose, >so the resulting product should be honey, not sugar syrup. This is my >understanding - what do the long time experts have to say? > >Rick Grossman >Oregon Actually different plants have different sugar ratios. E.g. White Clover (Trifolium repens - not Melillotus clovers) has average sugar ratios of 1/3rd each of glucose, fructose and sucrose. Climatic and soil differnces will affect this. A deficiency of Boron in the soil has the effect of an increase in the level of fructose in white clover. Presumably similar factors will be at work with most (all?) other plants. Peter Bray, Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@netaccess.co.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:08:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar/Long Hives Comments: To: Gerry Visel In-Reply-To: <19961109.235908.2087.7.visel7@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Gerry Visel wrote: > > How do you attach your starter "foundation" strip? Staple it to the > (square?) bar? Centered, I presume? Gerry and others, I make a 1/4 inch groove, centered, the length of the tb. I take the 1/2 in strip of foundation, inserted it in the groove, tilt the bar slightly, then pour melted wax next to the foundation at one end. The wax runs the length of the foundation strip...no nailing, etc. I use a tin can for a pitcher in which to melt the wax. I put the can in a pot of water which acts as a double boiler to melt the wax. I waxed in the foundation to my Langstroth frames when I was using them...got tired of trying to nail in wedge bars. The tin can works well...never found the waxers that are sold commercially (tube with hole in end) to work as well for me. > Brown paper bag dipped in wax? > > Where did you hear of this method? Any other good books besides > Dartington? I haven't seen anything like this in our public library. If by method you mean using brown paper as foundation, I arrived at this own my own though I have since found that I "reinvented" it. I think it has been used by Curtis Gentry, Conrad Berube, and others as well, long before my using it. I also make my own foundation by dipping a smooth board that I have soaked in water into melted beeswax. Plunge the board and wax into cold water, then the wax peels off easily. Thickness of wax depends on temperature of wax, speed of dipping, and number of dips. Bees use this well...it doesn't have to be embossed with cell pattern. I think it was Allen or Andy or someone who said that during a strong honeyflow, bees will built comb on most anything. Original plans from Paul Magnuson suggested putting a strip of hardboard along the underside of the tb then dipping the edge of the strip in wax to give the starter strip. Some tbh beekeepers have tried triangular bars with one point down, that point having been dipped in wax. Other books?? Curtis Gentry and assistants did an excellent book on tbh beekeeping for a South American project for the US Peace Corps. I don't think that the book is generally available. I keep coming back to Eva Crane's incredible $100.00+ book that is loaded with information on bees and beekeeping around the world. She has excellent material on tbh's in her book. Hope this information is helpful. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:27:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar/Long Hives Comments: To: Tom & Carol Elliott In-Reply-To: <32857A9F.74@alaska.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Tom & Carol Elliott wrote: > > One thing I did do a bit differently than standard was to make a few top bars with one-half a bee > space openning on each side. Then in the fall I was able to add standard supers and move the bees > up for a wintering attempt. (The top width of my TBH was made the same as the length of a standard > super.) Tom and others, I put a full bee space notch in the center, one side only of all of my tb's. I keep the holes covered with a thin strip of wood or something unless I want to use use holes for ventilation or additional entrances. When I move the strip, I can see how far the bees have drawn out the combs rather than tapping on the tb's as some have done. I can keep the holes covered as I work the hive should I need to. The holes can serve as gateways to a super, though I have cut a wire excluder into strips and made queen excluder top bars which work very well. > Crops do not in my experience are not only less than with standard > equipment, but extracting is comparatively easy. But, I would still > encourage you to try one or two just for fun. You will learn some new > things. Tom, I agree with you here. It might be possible to get comparable crops with enough work, but I doubt that it could ever equal the production of conventional hives with stacks of supers. Don't think it's the way to go for commercial honey production on a big scale with thousands of hives; however, for pollination services...maybe it has some promise. As for me, if I want more honey I just get out my tools and cobble up another tbh from scrap or, this spring...I'll be using some plastic 30 gallon drums for hive bodies. Yep, learning continues. Think I'll write a book on tbh beekeeping as soon as I know everything...come to think of it, I'll *never* write the book for I'll never know everything! :) Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 08:02:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: Using Smokers 101 Judy, you will get lots of hot tips about starting your smoker and keeping it going. 1. Choice of fuel - fuel must be dry and free of plastic content .a.) Burlaps bags used to be made of hemp, now they're largely plastic.If you do find an old burlap bag grab it, cut it into 3in squares, we will talk about its use soon. b.Wood shavings. If there is a saw mill or wodcraft shop nearby they may be happy to give you plenty just to get rid of it. Saw mills selll alot of their chip and shaviong to the press board industry so pick on a small one where this product is to small for marketing. c. pine needles, pine straw , pine cones. Depending on where you live there should be plenty of these around or none at all. The Atlantic coast has many areas of pine. Gather some store it in a dry ventilated place . d.dried grass clipping e. tobacco leaves or other large leaves well dried. 2. igniting bunch up a small amount of new paper and push into into the bottom of the smoker, light it with a match squeeze a couple of slow pufffs on the bellows when it is really flaring,add chips, pine needles or drygrass.a little at a time keeping the flame going,with small puffs. after it begins to flame again add more fuel and pack it down with a stick. Soon there should be lots of smoke. Put the lid in place and keep slow puffs going. Some sparks may come out , slow down. As you go from your work area to your hives.keep little puffs going making sure that the smoke smudges well. Before using open smoker and add as much fuel as you can get in, pump bellows again until flame occurs. Then pack in some fresh grass whcih will smolder but usally not burn.This serves to cool the smoke coming out so that you do not burn the bees.Close the smoker once again some puffs pn the bellows. T The fire is now well established and can be used for many hours. If you are going to take in in a truck or car still burning put it in a large covered metal can. Have fun ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 08:02:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: stinging the watch There has to be something directly connected to the wearing of a watchthat attracts bees..I have three different wrist watches running just now.Two are standard battery operated affairs with black plastic straps.The bees tend to crawl into my sleeves under the elastic gauntlet and then down to the wrist inside the glove and go directly to the watch.Yes they may get pinched as sting as a result. Other times I have been hit through the mesh at the back of the wrist and be hit right at the watch. If I leave the watch at home there is no problem. I have another battery watch that is designed to attach to my ski teaching glove with velcro so that it is outside and I can keep tabs on my class schedule . I think that tomorrow morninfg I will adapt it to my bee gauntlet glove above the ventilation point and watch to see whether to bee go to it.At least there they will have to spike throught the glove and my jacket sleeve. No free lunch there. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 08:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: Bees knowing you,or your watch Hey cool thought.I am going to put watches out near the landing board and see whether they are attracted. Will wrie again soon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:04:58 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Crystallization of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to add a few things to this thread. Some years back the commersial beekeeping organization in sweden, EKOBI, did a study on honey crystallization to find out how we can better control the process. A summary of this work can be seen at http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/krist_e.htm. I use the word crystallized and not creamed. Creamed can lead to the misunderstanding that air is beaten into the honey, that is not the case. To control the process we need to understand how it works. A detailed report of the project is only available in Swedish, so I will try to explain the basics. The crystallization starts below approximately 50 degrees C. The fastest crystallization is obtained at app. 14 C. The finest grain is obtained at a lower temp, but then the process will go slower, so a mean value of 10 C has showed to be suitable for good result at reasonable time. (This is for a honey with 48% fructose, 35% glucose, and 17% water) The old way to do it was to simply take any fine grain honey and use it as a starter to supply the nucleus for the process to start. Then stir the honey at a low temp for a number of days. This will require a lot of power and expensive machinery when done on a larger scale. With the Ekobi method there is no longer a need to stir all the honey for days. A starter is made that holds a large number of extremely small crystalls, so many that no more stirring is needed when the starter is mixed into the liquid honey. This way you only need to stir 1-3% of the honey at the low temp. The starter is made at 10 degrees C, and stirred twice a day until it becomes white and creamy. The starter is now ready to use, and must be used within a few days. During the crystallization process small crystalls move to form crystall patterns, they move towards each other to form larger units. When the starter is stored glucos molecules move from small crystalls to the larger crystalls, creating a larger grain starter that is useless for the purpose. The same thing will happen if the starter is warmed up. The starter must be used while the crystallization process is still going on in it! When the starter is mixed into the honey, there are a few things that is important. To avoid warming up the starter prior to mixing it in, a small amount of liquid honey is slowly mixed into the starter during stirring. That way the starter is diluted at the same time it's slowly warmed up. The diluted starter is immediately mixed into the rest of the liquid honey, and stirred until completely mixed. It is possible to mix the starter into honey that is up to 30 degrees C. Crystallization should then continue below 17 degrees C. Depending on the glucos and water content of the honey, it might become too hard in the jars. If so, wait one or two days after mixing in the starter before filling jars. No stirring is needed during this time. With this method the small and even some commersial beekeepers can manage to produce a perfect "creamed" honey with only a refrigerator to cool the starter. --- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 09:07:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: ICCI Subject: Commercial Testing Labs. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could any body help me. Are there any commercial testing laboratories for Bee Products in USA ? Beeswax, Pollen, Propolis etc.. Thank you in advance. Rao Vadlamudi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:30:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: SUGARS, HFC, INVERT and more.. > Can you explain to me what inverted syrup is and how does one make >it? Does it mean that you mix it very thick,or boil it? Can you give me >your recipe that you have used successfully? The simple and short answer is that you don't make it, it is what bees make from the nectar they gather. So if you feed inverted sugar you are giving your bees a rest because in inverting nectar or sugar the bees consume or use up what ever it is they add and by doing so shorten their own lives so feeding inverted sugars is smart if the cost is not way out of line. This is assuming that feeding bees is not in the emergency mode, then a different set of priorities prevail and the concern is getting the food into them before they run out of gas. I won't go into the details on how the sugar companies manufacture invert sugars other then to say that there are several methods depending on the raw sugar stock you start with, one using chemicals, and one uses enzymes and a very complicated system of mechanical processes. Lucky for us we can buy the products after they have been inverted. Inverted sugar syrups or HFC corn syrups are commercial products that you can buy from your bee supply house such as Dandant's, sugar brokers, or direct from the sugar manufacturer. Small beekeepers should search out other beekeepers to pool orders, or larger commercial beekeepers who normally buy in truck load lots to save money. Beekeepers this area buy according to price, and use. Many use blends of HFC and inverted sugar syrups in the spring and will then cut them with a small amount of water. In the fall they will feed the heavy syrups without additional water. A product called DRIVERT which is a dry inverted sugar is another product that can be used for feeding bees. It comes in 50# bags and because it is inverted the bees can use it with ease as it is very easy for them to turn it into a liquid. The bees do not burn out as fast as they do when using normal sugar or sugar syrups that are not inverted. Because this is a premium product used in the baking industry for fondant's it is pricey. One way to overcome the high price is to use it as a starter with ordinary granulated sugar if you have some way to mix it using one 50# bag to 200# or more of granulated sugar you can make a product that will be superior to granulated sugar and all most as good as straight DRIVERT. This type of sugar can be used in a inside walk in-feeder normally used with liquid sugars. Dry sugar feeding avoids the problem of robbing in small hives, and is seldom wasted because of a leaking feeder or change in weather. DRIVERT or similar products are more costly, but all other sugars wet or dry are sold on the dry weight of the actual sugars and you don't pay for the water, or in some cases even the fright of the water. I have often wondered about adding a 50# bag of DRIVERT to 500 gallons of type O sugar syrup and running some tests with the bees, but never got around to doing it. Type O sugar is what you make just melting granulated sugar in water, and is still used in package feeder cans by some beekeepers and in the spring if the price is low enough. It is purchased in liquid form the same as inverted or HFC corn sugars. TM can be used with dry sugars. Don't know of any other things that are permitted that could be used such as pesticides or stinking oils. But I would not be surprised if they could be added to the dry sugar after it is placed in the hive with some results? All sugar manufactures love to sell to beekeepers because they are a off season buyer and at least in the past in the west have provided full technical information on products for the asking including on site preparations for building receiving stations, pumps, and the like. Sometimes beekeepers can make deals to receive half loads and have it pumped into 55 gallon drums so many beekeepers who only need small amounts can be served. Technically there is no difference between beet, cane, or hfc corn syrups as far as feeding bees. Politically it was to the advantage of the corn syrup industry NOT to call their products "sugar" and avoid the regulations, quota's, fixed field labor rates, and much government BS of the cane and beet sugars growers and industry. They have since displaced a large percentage of the worlds cane and beet sugar producers and are still growing but at a slower rate because of over capacity that has kept all the sugar prices competitive. Corn syrups offer no advantage to beekeepers over cane or beet sugars other then price and beekeepers should be aware of any price differentials and buy accordingly. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. (f)Failures because of use of any information provided is that of the reader and the author is not responsible for any value other then his cost of posting this message. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... I said, but just to be a bee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:42:43 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > This person used one method, in syrup, and was partially wrong to > > use syrup in a hive top feeder. Until someone who has used it > > correctly over a period of time comes along to tell us it doesn't > > work, then I suggest we keep an open mind. > > Comments? > > I agree. > > Essential oils promise some -- perhaps considerable -- assistance in > dealing with many bee diseases, including even foulbrood. > > The problem is that methods of application, acceptable levels, > toxicity to bees (and people) and many other important factors > surrounding use in bee hives have not been established with > sufficient certainty to make oils a foolproof and routine treatment. > > We are still at the experimental stage -- at least in America -- and > we are likely in for some surprises, both pleasant, and not. Anyone > using these recommendations should restrict the number of hives in > the test to what he/she can afford to lose. IMO anyhow. > > BTW, did anyone read the article in Speedy Bee about Apistan > resistance in Swit. Hi Allen, I agree with being careful with essential Oils. They are toxic to bees if you mix too much in your pattys or syurp. I feel that pattys are better in the fall. Stay away from putting more moisture into the hive. I was putting some in some of my hives yesterday. I am using honey instead of sugar. Not boiled honey. My bees look great this fall. After I did get my Butt kicked by Varroa last fall , I was shure that , that will not happen again. I did use apistan in september. We do need to walk slow with the use of Essential Oils. I do think that they should be good for some time longer than apistan. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:58:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: H K Johnson Subject: Re: Commercial Testing Labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ICCI wrote: > > Could any body help me. > Are there any commercial testing laboratories for Bee Products in USA ? > Beeswax, Pollen, Propolis etc.. > > Thank you in advance. > > Rao VadlamudiThe Bee Research Laboratory (BRL) conducts research on the biology and control of honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) diseases and parasites to ensure an adequate supply of bees for pollination and honey production. Specifically, scientists are conducting research on the biology and control of two parasitic mites, Acarapis woodi and Varroa jacobsoni, and American foulbrood and chalkbrood diseases. Additionally, scientists conduct research on the molecular systematics of Apis and on developing molecular methods for the identification of Africanized honey bees. The BRL also conducts research on the utilization of non-Apis bees for the pollination of crops of economic importance. Because of the research specialties, the BRL scientists provide authoritative identification of Africanized honey bees and the diagnosis of bee diseases and pests for Federal and State regulatory agencies and beekeepers on a worldwide basis. History Staff Current Projects How to contact us Bee Disease Diagnosis Staff A staff of eight permanent scientists, two post-doctoral associates, and eight support personnel make up the BRL. Shimanuki, H. - Research Leader Arias, M.C. Batra, S.W.T. Bruce, W.A. Calderone, N.W. Collins, A.M. Feldlaufer, M.F. Hill, J.M. Hung, A.C.F. Knox, D.A. Kuenen, L.P.J. Logan, M.C. Sgambati, P. Sheppard, W.S. Vincent, D.L. Wilcox, R.J. Wilzer, Jr., K.R. Yoo, H-R. Current Projects The four main research units at the BRL are: 1.Bee Diseases and Parasitic Mites, 2.Honey Bee Molecular Systematic and Population Genetics 3.Pollinators 4.Cryopreservation of Honey Bee Germplasm Diagnosis and Control of Diseases of Honey Bees, Including Parasitic Mites Objectives: (1) to develop the means for in vitrorearing of parasitic mites of honey bees for use in preliminary evaluation of control technologies; (2) to conduct field evaluations of environmentally compatible control strategies for the management of honey bee diseases and parasitic mites; and (3) to develop new methods for the rapid and accurate diagnosis of honey bee diseases; (4) to provide diagnostic service to action and regulatory agencies and the beekeeping industry. Selected Publications Dr. Hachiro Shimanuki, Research Leader 301-504-8205, hshimanuki@asrr.arsusda.gov Conducts research on disease and pests. Specifically investigating the control of American Foulbrood disease using fatty acids and determining the etiology of bee parasitic mite syndrome. Responsible for coordinating Africanized honey bee research between the ARS and other Federal agencies and Universities. In addition, oversees the bee disease, parasitic mite, and bee identification services performed by the Bee Research Laboratory. Dr. William A. Bruce, Research Entomologist, Acarology 301-504-8821, wbruce@asrr.arsusda.gov Biology of the mite parasites of honey bees. Research interests include reproductive physiology and behavior, nutritional physiology and feeding behavior, and host-parasite interactions. Long-term goal is to control these parasites by non-chemical means. Current research focuses on basic biology of host parasite interactions and the influence of water balance and temperature on the survival ofVarroa jacobsoni . Dr. Nicholas W. Calderone, Research Entomologist 301-504-8574, ncalderone@asrr.arsusda.gov Major focus is on the chemical ecology and behavior of honey bees. Current interests include identification of chemical cues involved in the regulation of pollen foraging activity and the hostseeking behavior of the parasitic honey bee mites Varroa jacobsoni and Acarapis woodi. Responsible for identification and evaluation of natural products for control of honey-bee pests, parasites, and pathogens. Dr. Mark F. Feldlaufer, Research Entomologist 301-504-8637, mfeldlaufer@asrr.arsusda.gov Investigates the biochemical and hormonal differences between honey bees and their parasitic mites and the inhibition of sterol metabolism in honey bee pests (i.e. Galleria). Participates in natural products chemistry with other members of the laboratory and research community. Dr. Akey C. F. Hung, Research Entomologist 301-504-8749, ahung@asrr.arsusda.gov Production of monoclonal and polyclonal antibodies and the development of enzyme immunoassay for field identification of honey bee viruses. Mr. David A. Knox, Entomologist 301-504-8173, hshimanuki@asrr.arsusda.gov In-charge of the bee disease diagnostic service and assists in the research on the control of bee diseases. Dr. Lodewyk (Bas) Kuenen, Research Associate, Entomologist 301-504-8574, bkuenen@asrr.arsusda.gov Behavior and chemical ecology of arthropods focusing on stimuli and behavioral mechanisms involved in mate and host location. Current research emphasis is on host preference and host location by Varroa jacobsoni in relation to physical and chemical stimuli from adult and immature honey bees. Ms. Michele C. Logan, Biological Aid 301-504-8749 Assists in the conduct of serological tests and bee disease diagnosis. Mr. David Vincent, Entomologist 301-504-8097 Operates the scanning electron microscope and assists in the studies on mite biology. Mr. Kenneth R. Wilzer, Jr., Physical Science Technician 301-504-8637 Assists in the studies of sterol and natural products chemistry. Molecular Genetics of Honey Bee Races and Populations in North America Objectives: 1) to establish a molecular genetic baseline for feral honey bees in North America; 2) to characterize genetic diversity in commercial populations of honey bees in North America; 3) to define population genetic changes associated with the process of Africanization; 4) to develop a research program on the molecular systematics of honey bees (Apis), that will have application to insect biosystematic research in general; and 5) provide authoritative ID's of selected samples for APHIS and State regulatory agencies. Selected Publications Dr. Walter S. Sheppard, Research Entomologist 301-504-8570, wsheppard@asrr.arsusda.gov Molecular systematics and population genetics of insects. Research includes systematics of the Apoidea and population genetic changes associated with colonizations. Current research in an investigation of systematics of the Apoidea using mitochondrial DNA analysis and RNA/DNA sequencing. Special interest is the development of molecular identification procedures for Africanized honey bees. Dr. Maria Cristina Arias, Research Associate 301-504-8271, carias@asrr.arsusda.gov Employing molecular systematic techniques, including DNA sequencing of specific nuclear and mitochondrial regions, to test hypotheses about the origin, biography and evolution of Apis mellifera races and Apis species. Ms. Heui-Ra Yoo, Biological Technician 301-504-8271 In-charge of the Africanized honey bee identification service and assists in the molecular systematic research. Ms. Robin J. Wilcox, Biological Aid 301-504-8271 Assists in the identification of Africanized honey bees. Utilization of Non-Apis Bees for the Pollination of Horticulture, Small Fruit, and Vegetable Crops Objectives: (1) to evaluate the behavioral characteristics of domestic non-Apis bees for their ability to serve as efficient pollinators of greenhouse horticultural crops; (2) to enhance management practices to improve the ability of endemic non-Apis bees to pollinate small fruits; and (3) to devise efficient means for the utilization of native, non-Apis bees for pollination of vegetable seed crops, including cucumbers and other cruciferous species. Selected Publications Dr. Suzanne W. T. Batra, Research Entomologist 301-504-8384 Ethology, sociobiology and biosystematics of the Apoidea (ca. 20,000 bee species worldwide). Conservation, and management of native and exotic bee species for improved pollination of fruits and vegetables. Symbioses between bees and other insects, vascular plants, and fungi. Cryopreservation of Honey Bee Semen Objectives: (1) To develop methods for the in vitro preservation of honey bee germplasm; (2) apply methods of cryopreservation and molecular analysis for the characterization of genetic material (sperm) of honey bees. Dr. Anita M. Collins, Research Geneticist 301-504-7299, acollins@asrr.arsusda.gov Conducts research on cryopreservation for germplasm preservation and to develop molecular methods to characterize and identify honey bee sperm. Recent Publications Laboratory Office Staff Ms. Janice M. Hill, Program Management Assistant 301-504-8205 Secretary for the Bee Research Laboratory Ms. Pat Sgambati, Office Automation Clerk 301-504-8205 Serves as the laboratory Clerk/Typist To Contact the BRL: 1.Mail Bee Research Laboratory Bldg. 476, BARC-East Beltsville, MD 20705 2.Phone: 301-504-8205 3.Fax: 301-504-8736 4.E-mail: a03rlbrl@attmail.com 5.For phone and e-mail of individuals see listings under Staff History The Bee Research Laboratory, the oldest of the federal bee labs, is located on the USDA's Beltsville Agricultural Research Center. Federal honey bee research in the Washington metropolitan area had its beginning in 1891 and, except for a short break in 1896-1897, has been continuous for more than a century. The first Division of Bee Culture Laboratory was located in Somerset, Maryland, presently a section of Chevy Chase, which borders on Washington, DC. The Laboratory was relocated a number of times until 1939 when it was moved to Beltsville, MD. A list of scientists who have worked in the lab in the past reads like a ``who's who'' of American beekeeping research. Among them are F. Benton, E.F. Phillips, C.E. Burnside, E. Holst, A.S. Michael, J.I. Hambleton, G.F. White, and G.F. Knowlton. Continuity of leadership has been a distinguishing feature of the Beltsville lab. Only five scientists have led the lab in its more than 100 years of operation: Dr. Benton, Dr. Phillips, Mr. Hambleton, Mr. Michael, and currently, Dr. Hachiro Shimanuki. Research on the identification and control of honey bee diseases has always been the major thrust of the lab. For beekeepers and bee industry regulators, not only in the United States, but around the world, ``Beltsville'' has long been designated as the place they can send bee and brood samples for diagnoses. The bee disease diagnostic service has been a part of the research program at the BRL almost since its inception. Today, the BRL also provides authoritative identification of Africanized honey bees. Selected Publications - Bee Diseases and Parasitic Mites Bruce, W.A. and Kethley, J.B. 1993. Morphology of the gnathosoma of Acarapis woodi. (Acari: Acarapidae). Int. Jour. Acarol. (3):243-247 . Bruce, W.A., Anderson, D.E., Calderone, N.W., and Shimanuki, H. 1995. A survey for Kashmir virus in honey bee colonies in the United States. Amer. Bee Jour. 135(5):352-355. Bruce, W.A. and Needham, G.R. 1995. Effects of temperature and relative humidity on the water balance of Varroa jacobsoni (Acari: Varroidae). Proceedings, IX. International Congress of Acarology, Columbus, Ohio. June, 1994. Calderone, N.W. 1993. Genotypic variablity in stimulus-response relationships: differential effect of brood on pollen-hoarding behavior in two strains of the honey bee, Apis mellifera. Animal Behavior 46:403-404. Calderone, N.W., Shimanuki, H. and Allen-Wardell, G. 1994. An in vitro evaluation of botanical compounds for the control of the honey bee pathogens Bacillus larvae and Ascosphaera apis, and the secondary invader B. alvei. Jour. Ess. Oil. Res. 6:279-287. Feldlaufer, M.F., Lusby, W.R., Knox, D.A., and Shimanuki, H. 1993. Isolation and identification of linoleic acid as an antimicrobial agent from the chalkbrood fungus, Ascosphaera apis. Apidologie 24: 89-94. Feldlaufer, M.F., Knox, D.A., Lusby, W.R. and Shimanuki, H. 1993. Antimicrobial activity of fatty acids against Bacillus larvae, the causative agent of American foulbrood disease. Apidologie 24: 95-99. Hung, A.C.F. and Rubink, W.L. 1994. Tissue specificity and developmental expression of hexokinase and Africanized honey bee specific proteins in Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera:Apidae). Biochem. System. & Ecol. 22:221-227. Hung, A.C.F. and Wagner, R.M. 1994. Amino acid composition of an Africanized honey bee (Hymenoptera:Apidae) specific protein. Jour. Apic. Res. 33:113-117. Shimanuki, H. and Knox, D. A. 1991. Diagnosis of honey bee diseases. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Agriculture Handbook No. AH-690, 53 p. Shimanuki, H., Knox, D. A., Furgala, B., Caron, D. M., and Williams, J. L. 1992. Diseases and Pests of Honey Bees. In The Hive and the Honey Bee. Edited by Dadant and Sons, Hamilton Illinois, pp. 1083-1151. Shimanuki, H., Knox, D.A. and Feldlaufer, M.F. 1992. Honey bee disease interactions: Antimicrobial activity of chalkbrood fungus. Amer. Bee Jour. 132: 735-736. Shimanuki, H. 1993. Current status and future prospects for control of bee mites. Proc. Int. Symp. on Asian Honey Bees and Mites, 1:43-48, Wicwas Press, Cheshire, CT. Shimanuki, H. and Knox, D.A. 1994. Susceptibility of Bacillus larvae to Terramycin. Amer. Bee Jour. 134:125-126. Shimanuki, H., Calderone, N.W. and Knox, D.A. 1994. Parasitic mite syndrome: the symptoms. Amer. Bee Jour. 134:827-828. Witherell, P.C. and Bruce, W.A. 1994. Control of Varroa mites on caged honey bees. Arthropod Management Tests 19:353. Selected Publications - Honey Bee Molecular Systematic and Population Genetics Arias, M.C. and Sheppard, W.S. 1995. Molecular phylogenetics of honey bee subspecies (Apismellifera L.) inferred from mitochondrial DNA sequences. Mol. Phylogen. Evol. (In Press) Gasparich, G. E., Sheppard, W. S., Han, H. Y., McPheron, B.A. and Steck, G.J. 1995. Analysis of mitochondrial DNA and development of PCR-based diagnostic molecular markers for Mediterranean fruit fly (Ceratitis capitata) populations. Insect Molec. Biol. 4:61-67. Meixner, M.D., Krell, R., Dietz, A. and Sheppard, W.S. 1994. Morphological and Allozyme variability in honey bees from Kenya. Apidologie 25:188-202. Schiff, N.M., Sheppard, W.S., Loper, G.R., and Shimanuki, H. 1994. Genetic diversity of feral honey bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) populations in the Southern United States. Ann. Entomol. Soc. Amer. 87:842-848. Schiff, N.M. and Sheppard, W.S. 1995. Genetic analysis of commercial honey bees (Hymenoptera:Apidae) from the southern United States. Jour. Econ. Entomol. (In Press) Sheppard, W. S., Arias, M.C. and Shimanuki, H. 1994. Determination of honey bee mitochondrial DNA haplotypes from sting remnants. Bull. Entomol. Res. 84:551-554. Sheppard, W.S., Rinderer, T.E., Meixner, M.D., Yoo, H.R., Stelzer, J.A., Schiff, N.M., Kamel, S.M., and Krell, R. 1995. HinFl variation in mitochondrial DNA of Old World honey bee races. Jour. Hered. (In Press) Selected Publications - Pollinators Batra, S.W.T. 1994. Anthophora pilipes villosula sm. (Hymenoptera: Anthophoridae), a manageable Japanese bee that visits blueberries & apples cool, rainy, spring weather. Proc. Ent. Soc. Wash. 96:98-119. Norden, B.B., Krombein, K.V. and Batra, S.W.T. 1994. Nesting biology of Exomalopsis (Phanamalopsis) solani Cockerell (Hymenoptera: Anthophoridae). Proc. Entomol. Soc. Wash. 96:350-356. Batra, S.W.T. 1994. Diversify with pollen bees. Amer. Bee Jour. 134:591-593. Batra, S.W.T. 1994. Shaggy fuzzyfoot bees. Pomona 27:57-59. Selected Publications, Anita M. Collins Collins, A. M., Daly, H., Rinderer, T. E., Harbo, J. R. and Hoelmer, K. 1994. Correlations between morphology and colony defense in Apis mellifera L. Jour. Apic. Research. 33(1):3-10. Pettis, J. S., Winston, M. L., and Collins, A. M. 1995. Suppression of queen rearing in European and Africanized honey bees Apis mellifera L. by synthetic queen mandibular gland pheromone. Insectes Sociaux. 42:113-121. Danka, R. G., Loper, G. M., Villa, J. D., Williams, J. L., Sugden, E. A., Collins, A. M. and Rinderer, T. E. 1994. Abating feral Africanized honeybees to enhance mating control of European queens. Apidologie. 25:550-529. Collins, A. M., Rubink, W. L., Cuadriello-Aguilar, J. I., and Hellmich, R. L. 1995. Use of insect repellents for dispersing defending honey bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae). Jour. Econ. Entomol. (In Press) Rubink, W. L., Luevano-Martinez, P., Sugden, E. A., Wilson, W. T. and Collins, A. M. 1995. Subtropical Apis mellifera (Hymenoptera:Apidae) swarming dynamics and Africanization rates in northeastern Mexico and southern Texas. Annals Entomol. Soc. Amer. (In Press) Rivera, R. and Collins, A. M. 1994. Sting pheromones of south Texas honey bees. Proc. Amer. Bee Res. Conf., Weslaco, TX, Amer. Bee Jour. 134(12):835-836. Collins, A. M. and Mbaya, J. S. K. 1994. Drone flight times in south Texas: AHB and EHB. Proc. Amer. Bee Res. Conf., Weslaco, TX, Amer. Bee Jour. 134(12):830. Bee Disease Diagnosis Anyone submitting samples to the Bee Research Laboratory should understand our priorities for diagnosis. They are as follows: Priority No. 1: Brood and adult honey bee samples submitted in support of Federal or State emergency programs. Priority No. 2: Brood samples from colonies where the results may institute abatement action. Priority No. 3: Examination of adult bees to obtain moving permits. Priority No. 4: Examination of adult bees for information purposes. The Bee Research Laboratory has seen an increase in the number of samples that we in the Laboratory have chosen to call the ``Bee Parasitic Mite Syndrome.'' It is quite likely that this syndrome is the result of a secondary infection in colonies infested with Varroa jacobsoni. The microbial flora associated with this syndrome may require biochemical tests. Accordingly, now more than ever, an accurate diagnosis depends on the sample. When examining bees for Tracheal Mites (Acarapis woodi) priority will be given to pooled apiary samples. These bees will be examined until Acarapis woodi) is found or until 50 bees have been scrutinized. Samples from individual colonies will be processed only on a ``as time allows'' basis. Directions for Sending Diseased Brood and Adult Honey Bees for Diagnosis Samples of Adult Honey Bees Send at least 100 bees and if possible, select bees that are dying or that died recently. Decayed bees are not satisfactory for examination. Bees to be examined for Parasitic Mites should be placed in 70% ethyl or methyl alcohol as soon as possible after collection and carefully packed in leak-proof containers. Bees to be examined for Viruses should be loosely wrapped in a paper bag, paper towel, newspaper, etc. and sent in a mailing tube or heavy cardboard box. Do not use alcohol; AVOID plastic bags, aluminum foil, waxed paper, tin, or glass. Samples of Brood The sample of comb should be at least 2 X 2 inches and contain as much of the dead or discolored brood as possible. NO HONEY SHOULD BE PRESENT IN THE SAMPLE. The comb can be loosely wrapped in a paper bag, paper towel, newspaper, etc. and sent in a heavy cardboard box. AVOID wrappings such as plastic bags, aluminum foil, waxed paper, tin, or glass because they facilitate decomposition. If a comb cannot be sent, the probe used to examine a diseased larva in the cell may contain enough material for tests. The probe can be wrapped in paper and sent to the laboratory in an envelope. How to Address Samples Send all samples to: Bee Disease Diagnosis Bee Research Laboratory Bldg. 476, BARC-East Beltsville, MD 20705 A short description of the problem along with your name and address should be attached to the package. ____________________________________________________________________ Last modified: Sept. 8, 1995 D.A. ``Dave'' Knox, Entomologist, hshimanu@asrr.arsusda.gov ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 17:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: H K Johnson Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ADDITIONAL RESULTS OF RESEARCH Varroa Mite Control, 1996 http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa2.htm (September 17, 1996). We will update this web page about monthly as we learn more from our experiments and as we receive results from other beekeepers. This page is designed for beekeepers. (For those needing help with terminology, please see Graham, J. 1992. The Hive and the Honey Bee, Dadant & Sons, Hamilton IL, 1324 pp.) Eradication possible? We believe that during the late fall and early winter the varroa mite is very susceptible to control by essential oils. By treating hives with the grease patties and syrups containing wintergreen, tea tree or patchouli oils, and making sure the treatments are near the cluster, then the varroa mites will have no place to hide and all can be killed. (No brood cells will be available as shelters.) Because most of the country has lost feral colonies, and only careful beekeepers now have bees, a concerted effort by all beekeepers at this time may achieve eradication of the varroa mite. We are not as sure about tracheal mite--(there are so few around this area that we can not find a sufficient infestation to test), but it, too, is probably susceptible to winter treatment with grease patties containing essential oils. This critical opportunity in beekeeping may not come around again for some time to come: our scenario is that with the feral colonies gone, many new colonies will be established in the next few years which will have light infestations of mites; swarms will issue from these and begin to reestablish a feral population--containing at first a few varroa mites. In a few seasons the mites will increase and another epidemic of fatal varroa mite + PMS will occur. As the new feral colonies increase, it will become impossible to find them and to eradicate their varroa mites. That is why now is such a special opportunity to attack this pest. We learned recently that EPA exempted certain active ingredients from the requirements of FIFRA including some essential oils; this information can be found in the Federal Register, Vol. 61, No. 45:8876-8879, Weds., Mar. 6, 1996 ("Exemption of certain pesticide substances"); materials listed include cinnamon oil, citronella oil, lemongrass oil, mint and mint oil [eg., Patchouli oil], peppermint oil, etc. EPA further stated that the inert substances in Fed. Reg. Vol. 61, No. 45 can be added to the active ingredients listed in Fed. Reg. Vol. 59, No. 187:49400-49401, Weds., Sep 28, 1994 ("Inert ingredients in Pesticide Products"), including cloves, mineral oil, parafin wax, wintergreen oil, etc. The label for exempted products must list the name and percentage (by weight) of each active ingredient and the name of each inert ingredient, and must not contain any false or misleading statements (40 CFR Art. 156.10, 1 July 1994). Many states require some form of state labeling such as "Attention: this product is a pesticide which is exempt from federal safety testing requirements. State registration does not imply safety of efficacy. User assumes full liability of use." Contact your state pesticide office for their requirements. SUMMARY OF EXPERIMENTAL TREATMENTS (REVISED): 1). Syrup: 25 drops (1 cc) of wintergreen or spearmint added to two cups (about one pound or 453.6 grams) of sugar in a quart jar (0.95 liter); hot water added to fill jar. Be sure to add the oil to the granulated sugar then add the very warm water (not too hot or else the oils will evaporate). Feed the bees as much syrup as they will take. We have had good results with wintergreen, spearmint, and peppermint oils. 2). Grease patties: are made with four cups of granulated sugar, two cups of shortening and one of the following: 21 cc of wintergreen oil or 21 cc of patchouli oil or 21 cc or tea tree oil or 11.5 cc of each of two oils (eg., wintergreen + patchouli). (This rate is 1/4 oz. of essential oils per pound of sugar and grease). The components are thoroughly mixed (wear gloves or use a large spoon, as wintergreen oil in such concentrations may be toxic; patchouli oil is not toxic). The mixture is then made up into 4 ounce patties (like a small, 3.5" hamburger) which are divided and placed on top of each brood box (about one half pound or 8 ozs. of grease patties per hive; one batch treats 5.8 hives). We plan to make patties this fall that also contain terramycin (TM25) to determine whether medications can be combined for both mites and foul brood. 3). Tracking strips: are made by cutting sheets or pieces of 1/8 in. plexiglass into strips 3" wide by 14" long (7.5 cm by 35.5 cm ), and used as a base for holding a treated slurry containing essential oil. The slurry is made as follows: 17.5 ozs. (2 and 1/5 cups) of canola oil are mixed with 6.5 ozs. (slightly more than 4/5 cup) of melted beeswax, stirred and set on a hot plate. To this liquid add 24 cc's of wintergreen oil (or 24 cc's of patchouli oil or 12 cc's of each ). Stir well and pour into three 8 oz. plastic cups. When cooled, the slurry has a shoe-polish or salve-like consistency. Then, 2 to 3 teaspoons of the slurry are applied to the tracking strip which is placed lengthwise just inside the front entrance of each colony. The bees must track through this slurry when they enter or exit the hive; they then clean off the slurry by eating it and feeding it to each other. Treatments are repeated after 5 days: the old slurry, dead mites and dead, deformed bees are scraped off and new slurry added. Plexiglass is used for tracking strips because it has a very smooth finish allowing an even coverage and it is too hard for the bees to chew up or remove; masonite or other similar material could be used just as well. 4). Paper inserts at top of hive: For control of varroa mite on displaced nurse bees (see below). Use 2 cups of canola oil containing 11 cc's of wintergreen; put some in a honey bear (as a squeeze bottle) and apply 6 lines of wintergreen oil in both directions on a paper towel so that the towel is saturated. The bees chew it up and remove it in a week or so. You should replace it as needed to treat the varroa mites trying to avoid the other treatments. Varroa Mite Assessment: You can place a sticky board on the bottom of the hive in combination with both patties and a tracking strip to obtain a good count of varroa mites within 24 to 48 hours: in our tests the essential oils killed more mites than Apistan. We use the essential oils throughout the year, either feeding syrup (when nectar is not coming in), using patties (pretty much year around, but bees do not use the patties as much during honey flows), and using the tracking strips, which are especially useful during the honey flows. The best results came from a combination of all three treatments. We have found in recent months: In colonies treated with tracking strips at the entrance and grease patties over the brood chambers, we found that varroa mites were able to escape treatment: displaced nurse bees, which gather under the inner cover were used as a hiding place by the mites. We treated this group of bees and mites by putting a piece of paper towel treated with canola oil and wintergreen (8 cc wintergreen in one cup of canola) just under the inner cover. We placed the oil treatment in a honey bear (used as a squeeze bottle) and applied 6 lines of wintergreen oil in both directions on a paper towel so that the towel was saturated. The bees chewed it up and removed it within a week or so. Very few mites were found on these bees after treatment. The tracking strips and grease patties are lethal to exposed mites, but the mites also escape the treatment by going into brood cells being capped. There were very few mites on adults in treated colonies (thus, the ether roll would have come up with 0-4 mites), but the mites were reproducing at normal levels in worker brood cells and drone cells. The few remaining drone cells had lots of mites in them (13 Sep 96). We conclude that the essential oils in tracking strips and grease patties do not enter the food chain sufficiently to impair mite development. The colonies that were fed syrup with essential oils, in addition to using tracking strips and grease patties, were virtualy free of varroa mites, without using Apistan. Large colonies: we also found that colonies with many supers and thus lots of space made mite control more difficult: the treatments were too diluted by the volume of space and number of bees. Therefore, we recommend getting honey supers off as soon as possible and reducing colonies to 1 or 2 brood chambers at most. In some of our colonies, grease patties containing spearmint oil were propolized; but not those patties made with wintergreen, tea tree or patchouli oils. Queens: A potential problem may be that queens on mating flights may have their pheromone masked or may become somewhat disoriented by essential oils. We recommend that the essential oil treatments be removed from the hives when queen rearing and mating is taking place. Drones: We found that large numbers of drone cells provide protection to the varroa mites and are definitely the source of most breeding varroa mites. Consequently, we recommend that the amount of available drone cells be kept to a mininmum; be sure to remove and replace old comb containing lots of irregular drone cells. (See the literature for techniques using periodic drone removal to reduce varroa mites). Note about tracheal mites: We checked Bob's colonies for tracheal mites by collecting older foragers: those that have frayed wings and a bald thorax. We removed their heads and first pair of legs and examined the tracheal trunks that are visible inside the cavity where the legs were (peel off the "collar" with forceps); infested tracheae could be seen with a hand lens and were dark spotted or uniformly dark. Results: in some control colonies (no treatments) 30% had tracheal mites; in treated colonies, 10% or less had tracheal mites. Since bees are able to drift considerable distances, we suspect that some of those in our treated colonies may have come in from other, declining feral colonies in the neighborhood (a few feral colonies still remain near Cumberland, but these should be gone soon). The older bees give a more reliable test for the presence and extent of infestation by tracheal mite. We learned that British beekeepers, up until about 1950, used a bottle of wintergreen oil (with a wick through the top) in the bottom of their hives to control acarine disease (tracheal mites). So, apparently, wintergreen (methyl salicylate) was use to control these mites. We also learned that Dr. Rennie, around 1920-1925, recommended wintergreen over the original Frow treatment of safrol-nitrobenzene-petrol as a treatment for Isle of Wight Disease (acarine disease or tracheal mites) (courtesy of Mr. Joe Hemmens, UK). Questions or comments please contact: James W. Amrine, Jr. Division of Plant and Soil Sciences, P. O. Box 6108, West Virginia University Morgantown, WV 26505-6108 USA Telephone: 304-293-6023 E-mail: jamrine@wvnvm.wvnet.edu Back to Preliminary Results of Research Varroa Mite Control | Ag & Forestry Extension Home Page ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 15:52:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Starting combs in top bar hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are various ways to get the combs started straight. Some top-bar beekeepers have beveled the underside of all the bars to a "v" and run wax along this. Others use a strip of paper or masonite set in a groove along the bar. I built and used a hive in which each top-bar was composed of two 5/8"-wide bars. A 2" deep strip of duragilt foundation was pinched between these two "1/2 bars" and they were tacked together with brads. The foundation was thereby secured between them. Here's an interesting idea for starters (sorry, but I don't remember where I saw it first): You melt some beeswax in a tin or other container. When it is good and liquid, you drop in a piece of twine or heavy string, which has been cut to the length of the desired comb. The string will become soaked through with hot wax. Next remove the string, let it drip for a couple seconds, and immediately apply it along the center line of the top bar. The wax soon congeals and cools, forming a definite ridge along the bar, and the bees consider this the "nub" of a new comb. They will construct the comb along this straight guide. I must mention that I have not tried this method yet, but will in the spring. It sounds fairly straightforward and easier than drizzling wax into a groove or gluing in a masonite strip. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 17:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave from Scranton Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects In-Reply-To: <199610310009.RAA30386@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > > We also use liquid smoke or just plain water to work our nucs on calm > days. I guess everyone's milage varies, but the one time I used water in a spray bottle on a 100+ day, my daughter got it twice in the head and I had to run like hell. I've also killed bees with smoke trying to chase them out of a super, ended up using the bee brush. Finally after 3 summers and one bear, I got my first crop of 23 pounds. It's in my kitchen in a 5 pound bucket that I got from the local donut shop for $1.00. It crystalized so I've got to stick it in the battub. Now i have to figure out what to do with it and what to put it in...never got this far, so never thought about it. 8-} ****************************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | ***ALERT shameless plug ALERT*** The Internet Cafe | Scranton, Pennsylvania | ASK ME FOR A COPY OF WEBPHONE!!! (717) 344-1969 | (or try www.scranton.com/webphone) ddc1@lydian.scranton.com | ****************************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave from Scranton Subject: Re: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 TONIGHT In-Reply-To: <327843BC.5238@metro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was channel surfing and came upon a story on the mite problem on Pat Robertson's network a few weeks ago. The whole angle of the report was that food prices are going up. Pat's questions all seemed to be centered on food prices as well. Bees and beekeepers seems to be rather insignificant in the scope of things. But then again God's creatures have always taken a back seat to God's money... ****************************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | ***ALERT shameless plug ALERT*** The Internet Cafe | Scranton, Pennsylvania | ASK ME FOR A COPY OF WEBPHONE!!! (717) 344-1969 | (or try www.scranton.com/webphone) ddc1@lydian.scranton.com | ****************************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:15:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: extracting with natural combs Comments: cc: Visel7@juno.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Have you ever tried extracting a TBH "frame"? My two framer has >expandded metal baskets that would probably do it fine. The frames >aren't supporting anything then. >... >Gerry and the other Visels at >Visel7@juno.com >Winnebago, Illinois, USA Bill Bielby in England has used combs from similar hives in an extractor. However, he gives the bees reinforced foundation suspended from the top-bars. The foundation is home-made, and the reinforcement he uses is some kind of nylon or plastic screen. With his ("catenary") hive, described in his HOME HONEY PRODUCTION book, the hive is expanded vertically, by adding supers. The brood-chamber bars are spaced, like regular frames. The supers are shallow boxes with top bars (with reinforced foundation attached) set in across the top. The super combs after a while get pretty well toughened up, and can be set into an extractor. At least Mr. Bielby used them that way. (Seems to me the lower edges of the comb would be crushed, even if you were careful.) Better yet, cut the best combs into nice comb honey, or crush and drain the rest for "extracted" honey. The wax you render will be choice. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:20:22 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On re-reading the info at http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa2.htm it occured to me that using oils for the first time, some type of measurement of results is important. I gathered that the experimenters were using sticky boards and could track the effects on the mites and tell when their treatment was working -- or not. I also gather the original poster in this thread did not actually monitor his results until he noticed that the hives had died or dwindled and that varroa were everywhere on the remaining bees. By then it was too late. And... since the amount of fall feed was only 5 quarts per hive -- if I recall, I would disagree with Andy and say that the syrup should not have been the cause of collapse. It seems to have been the failure of the mite treatment. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:18:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 TONIGHT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I was channel surfing and came upon a story on the mite problem on >Pat Robertson's network a few weeks ago. The whole angle of the report was >that food prices are going up. Pat's questions all seemed to be centered >on food prices as well. Bees and beekeepers seems to be rather >insignificant in the scope of things. But then again God's creatures have >always taken a back seat to God's money... > ... >Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | >The Internet Cafe | >Scranton, Pennsylvania Whilst channel-hopping, I did come across a honey bee & mites report on TV. I was surprised to find out it was on the 700-Club program, on Pat Roberston's network. The report was really well done, and informative. They talked about beekeeping, and the spread of the mites, and apistan, ecological and agricultural implications, etc. When the report-videotape was finished they of course went back to Mr. Robertson in the studio, where he and the co-hosts bantered a bit about the story. Then (of course) Pat started babbling on about how the demise of our precious underappreciated bees is just another sign of the end of the world. How the good Lord provided them as a part of nature to benefit our flowers and trees. How they are "disappearing!" Soon we will have NO MORE honey bees (just like there weren't any here on the continent the first place). The jist of Pat's emphasis was that there might be a terrible food CRISIS due in part to the dreaded mites. He was obviously trying to sensationalize and give the whole thing some profound eschatological meaning. In fact, he almost sounded like a *beekeeper*... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 20:32:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update REGARDING RE>Pitiful Sight Update Allen Dick wrote: >I also gather the original poster in this thread did not actually monitor his results until he noticed that the hives had died or dwindled and that varroa were everywhere on the remaining bees. By then it was too late. And... since the amount of fall feed was only 5 quarts per hive -- if I recall, I would disagree with Andy and say that the syrup should not have been the cause of collapse. It seems to have been the failure of the mite treatment.< I agree with Allen's comments. Upon rereading the whole thread, it does certainly seem to me that the bees died of a typical varroa infestation. The condition of the hives - lots of stored honey and no bees or virtually none - is identical to what I experienced a year ago when my Apistan strips didn't get on the colonies until mid to late September. I doubt that the amount of feeding had anything to do with the bee demise, nor were they poisoned by the essential oils. Other workers haven't reported such results that would indicate poisoning. On the other hand, observations on the remaining hives indicate that great numbers of varroa were still present. So now the question is why didn't the treatment protect the bees from varroa? Some argue that it is because all treatment methods were not used. I wonder if it may not be rather that the treatment was applied to late, after varroa got the upper hand. That is what happened to many of us last year with Apistan. If varroa kills not directly but by acting as a vector for virus (or bacterial) disease, perhaps the damage was already done before the treatment was applied. What have others of us observed when treating with essential oils? And when did you start treating, and for how long? I, and I'm sure others as well, would like to have some more info. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:33:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Brian G. Merrill" Subject: Re: ALS / Lou Gehrig's disease Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Has anyone any experience using bee venom therapy for Lou Gehrig's disease? >Am I correct in thinking ALS is the same disease? As a muscular >degeneration condition, I would expect it to have similarities to MS, but >would be interested in comments on the more specific use for Lou Gehrig's - >i.e. what stage was the treatment used, what points to use the venom on, >duration of treatments, effectiveness etc. > > >Regards, Fran Kay > > Fran and others, You are correct that ALS is the same as Lou Gehrig's disease. My father died of this a few years ago, three years after diagnosis. While we never tried treating the ALS with bee venom therapy, we did treat each other for bouts of arthritis, tendonitis, etc. And considering together we ran over 200 colonies for a lot of years just prior to his illness, I don't think any more bee stings would have made any difference. ALS is not directly a muscle degenerative disease...it is a nerve degenerative; the muscles deteriorate as a result and, I think, is more from atrophy. Medical research classes ALS within the MD (Muscular Dystrophy) group rather than MS, even though ALS sounds closer to MS...Amniotropic Lateral Sclerosis. Good luck to your friend, as far as I know, the doctor's and scientists don't even know what causes ALS, and as a result there is no cure for it. There seems to be a lot of variations depending on where the nerve degeneration starts, etc...This may be getting too long for this list so if you or anyone else is interested further, contact me directly. Brian G. Merrill bmerrill@ns.moran.com Ellie Bee Apiaries 61 Calumet St. Depew, NY 14043 USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:24:59 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: REPORT ON KRON TV 4 TONIGHT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel Govostes wrote: > The jist of Pat's emphasis was that there might be a terrible food CRISIS > due in part to the dreaded mites. He was obviously trying to > sensationalize and give the whole thing some profound eschatological > meaning. In fact, he almost sounded like a *beekeeper*... Whether you agree with Pat or not, Joel has a way of making us/me laugh. Well put. My laugh for the day! -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:40:05 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Bacillus larvae resistant to OTC The original source paper for the work quoted by Tom Sanford is: Alippi, A (1994) Sensibilidad "in vitro" de Bacillus larvae frente a diferentes antimicrobianos. Vida Apicola 66:20-24. English summary is as follows: "Five strains of Bacillus larvae isolated from infected brood combs of different geographical origin were tested for their sensitivity to 22 antibiotics by the agar diffusion disk method. All B. larvae cultures were susceptible to ampicillin (10ug), ampicillin (10ug) + sulbactam (10ug), cefaclor (30ug), cephalotin (30ug), clindamycin (2ug), erythromycin (15ug), nitrofurantoin (300ug), norfloxacin (10ug), penicillin G (10ug), pefloxacin (5ug), rifampin (5ug), tylosin (30ug) and vancomycin (30ug), and resistant to nalidixic acid (30ug), pipemidic acid (20ug), chloramphenicol (30ug), polymyxin B (30ug), sodium sulphathiazole (300ug) and thrimethoprim (1.25ug) + sulfametoxazol (23.75ug). As regard to streptomycin (10ug) and oxacillin (1ug), the strains showed different sensitivity patterns. In antimicrobial disk susceptibility tests for oxytetracycline (30ug), four strains were resistant and one was moderately susceptible. The minimal inhibitory concentrations (MIC) of OTC for five strains of Bacillus larvae were 1ug/ml (1 strain), 2ug/ml (3 strains), and 4ug/ml (1 strain)." ug=microgram ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:41:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update AD>And... since the amount of fall feed was only 5 quarts per hive -- >if I recall, I would disagree with Andy and say that the syrup >should not have been the cause of collapse. It seems to have been >the failure of the mite treatment. Yee Gadds Bee Friends did I say that, I got to stop this late niter posting. I hope not as I have never really found any reliable method of judging individual beehive health problems without at least a hands on look, and I try never to do that via the internet, and even with a hands on look at tens of thousands sick hives that did die if they are too far gone it is only a educated guess. But I must admit in my own defence that if the hives were on the verge of collapse from any cause the extra stress of inverting sugar would be as good a guess as any. But then all should know I am not convinced that I have ever seen a hive that died from mites alone, but I will continue to look. Many years ago I was not convinced that all AFB came from bee trees as most other beekeepers here were quick to blame as most did not have many close neighboring beekeepers. I looked and looked and in one year helped remove 35 established hives from one old building and have yet to find that first bee tree with AFB. I know others have, I may have met one person in all these years to talk to that had found AFB in a bee tree but even then it is appears as being really a rare sight and was to him as he had cut hundreds of trees to find that one over a long history of years and you would think if that was the main cause of inoculation of hivebees it would not be so rare. Now I am sure beekeepers no longer blame AFB on bee trees not because they are all gone but because it is always their neighbour who is just across the road who must not know how to take care of his disease that is at fault. I have seen the sugar loss many times in feeding over wintering hives with AFB they always seem to die, and the one's not fed don't. One of the advantages to feeding sugar as done here with the inverted gallon can over the top of the hive is that all sick and week hives can be identified. They are the one's that will have syrup running out the entrances the next day. Some times the cans can be removed to save the remaining sugar for others and the hives checked or marked for help later. I have run into complete yards of hives that should have not been fed, but were because the last time the beekeeper was inside the hives they were in excellent shape but had dramatically declined since. I can remember one load that I moved that had so much sugar running out the entrances that as I drove down the highway at night I noticed all the cars that passed me had there windshield wipers on and it was not raining, just lucky some highway patrol man was not among them or I would have been washing police cars at the county farm for thirty days or so. Well with maybe one exception for that telepathic diagnosis of bee problems via the net could be the classic American Foul Brood symptoms; if it stinks, ropes out, has sunken brood caps, and scale it may be AFB. And it also could have some mites, or many mites just before death, but I still would not say the mites were the cause of death or that any prescribed treatment for mites that did not include treatment for the AFB would have effected the outcome. One thing I can say for sure with confidence is if your bees have varroa mites and if they get sick for any reason and their is a dramatic population decline there will be more mites found per sample as the population declines. You can quote me on that one. I really wanted to say if they are put under extreme stress, which could be positive or negative in nature the same thing could result, but that would not be politically correct so I have been told, but in any case I have never doubted my fellow beekeeper word when it comes to having problems with bees or the unexplained death of them because I have seen so many bee problems in my own travels and the majority of them could not be explained with the knowledge and tools we have today in the bee yard. The real mite problem as I see it is that our bees have been showing symptoms of dramatic population declines as long as I have been around and before that and for sure before any mites could be found and even today some of these hives that die have few if any mites big or small when they die. I guess it is natural to say if your bees have lots of mites and die the mites killed them and maybe they did. It may only be interesting that this can not be demonstrated by the addition of a known number of mites to healthy bee hives and have those bees hives die, but some have said it takes more then one or two seasons which goes against the science that proscribes that all rats must die at the end of the experiment in year one. Beekeepers in this area are having problems maybe related to late summer pesticide treatments on cotton months earlier, and some also seem to think that the mite problems have declined here and are happy to continue using the prescribed strips. So far the problem is limited to two reports from two beekeepers with a total loss (dead or close to it) of 500 hives. I suspect there are many more. I looked at a sample of the 300 hives reported on in a earlier post and they had no visual signs of mites and were under mite treatment at the time I looked. In that case the beekeeper took my advice and moved them into storage the same week and used the good fall locations for other bees. ttul, Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ~ Everything I say is true, and that's a lie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:13:20 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Crystallization of honey On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:04:58 +0100, P-O Gustafsson wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: P-O Gustafsson >Subject: Crystallization of honey >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I would like to add a few things to this thread. > >I use the word crystallized and not creamed. Creamed can lead to the >misunderstanding As far as I know creeamed honey is a special form of crystallized honey which has very fine crystals and tastes (physically) like a cream or butter. Even the same kind of honey e.g. from the oil raps (Brassica napus L.) can be in three basic forms: 1 - the liquid (immediatelly after extraction), 2 - crystallized (if left untouched longer time) with large and rough crystals, and finely 3 - the creamed one (when moved during the crystalization) which has small crystals indistinquishable in mouth. Best regards, Vladimir Ptacek (ptacek@sci.muni.cz) Czech Republic ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:57:04 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Starting combs in TB and OTHER hives Dear friends, >From the sanitary point of wiev I feel as very important to find a way how to construct maximum combs without using foundations since the wax used in manufacturing them may be contaminated by cumulated residues from previous treatments against bee diseases especially varroa. I dont know if plastic frames would be a solution here, since they maybe can cummulate residues, too. So I suggest to find answers on the following questions: 1. How to arrange a frame for free comb construction to make it acceptable for both, the bees and beekeeper. This means the frame must have some support (vires, nylon thread or so) and bees should build regular combs in them, and this not only on individual combs inserted somewhere between other combs but also in a block arrangment (swarm in empty chamber ect.). 2. How to make the free comb construction method most effective? This means to achieve maximum worker cells and so obtain combs useful for brood rearing as well as for storing (and extracting) honey.I would invite any idea related to this matter, e.g. what is the proportion between worker and drone cells in TBH ? Best regards Vladimir Ptacek ---------------------------------------------------------------- Fac. Sci., Dept. Anim. Physiol. E.mail: ptacek@sci.muni.cz Masaryk University phone: .42/5/41129 562 611 37 Brno, Czech Republic fax: .42/5/41211 214 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:06:02 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Andrew D. Kidd" Subject: Propolis and bee forage -- a correlation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Does anyone know whether and to what extent the composition of propolis alters with different bee forage? Any sources of further information would also be appreciated. Thanks. Andrew Kidd University of Hohenheim (430A) 70593 Stuttgart Germany. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:33:34 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Morten Brixtofte Petersen Subject: Pitiful sight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all! Ted Ficher wrote:" ...Apistan. If varroa kills not directly but by acting as a vector for virus (or bacterial) disease, perhaps the damage was already done before the treatment was applied......" Last autum/winter several beekeepers here in Denmark suffered situations like the situation Barry described: Well fed colonies abandon/diminishes all of a sudden during autumn. This is thougth to be caused by a virus called Acute Paralysis Virus (APV), bees leave hive and become paralysed out in the field, or loose orientation (Thus possibly spreading varror by entering another hive). If the varroa level has been to high during summer - colony will die in autummn - the colony is stroken and removing the mites migth be too late. IMHO Regards Morten Petersen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 21:37:38 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Organization: SMCOE Subject: Meeting ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee folks! I was just nominated president of my county's Bee Guild last night. The past year's meetings have been pitiful. Boreing, unimaginitive and stale. I want to breed some new life into my bee club so I am turning to the Bee-L for ideas. I would like to know what interesting ideas, events, contests, games and projects people have enjoyed over the years at their bee meetings that I might use to help our club. I feel the turn out will improve and people will actually enjoy attenting meetings if I can spice things up a little. If this is not an appropirate thread for the list, please mail me directly. If you feel others may benefit from what you come up with, post to all. Thanks -- Mason Harris, MA (\ SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 08:02:26 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: Starting combs in TB and OTHER hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vladimir Ptacek wrote: > > Dear friends, > >From the sanitary point of wiev I feel as very important to find a way how > to construct maximum combs without using foundations since the wax used > in manufacturing them may be contaminated by cumulated residues from > previous treatments against bee diseases especially varroa. I dont know if > plastic frames would be a solution here, since they maybe can cummulate > residues, too. Vladimir - Have you ever considered making your own wax foundation using your own wax that would be "less" contaminated? There is a book published here in the states called "Keeping Bees" in which it gives you a step-by-step process for making the press. This would be another alternative. I can give you more information if you want. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 09:03:56 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Sugar and honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" <<<<< I have heard of some producers feeding syrup to their bees year round to increase honey production by the bees placing this material with honey in the comb. With honey being higher priced than sugar they are making a killing on their product and the bees are doing the work. Is this practice illegal in your area or just immoral?>>>>> <<<>>>> Re the above. No doubt bees can invert sugar as you state but they cannot turn sugar into honey. Legally honey is made from nectar collected by the bees from nectaries, intra or extra-floral. Of course, sugar is derived from plant sap as is nectar. Unfortunately it has no aroma and no taste and introducing it into honey deliberately is illegal and a fraud. It can happen accidentally when the bees move surplus stores upstairs during the spring expansion but the dilution would not be great. After the war, before most of you thought of beekeeping, we had sugar rationing for many years. Beekeepers were allowed extra for autumn and spring feeding. This sugar was sold with a green dye to prevent it from being used for other purposes. Unfortunately green honey started to appear in the supers ( we do not mix brood and super combs) and the green dye had to be abandoned. Sid P. For Rick, as he in not sure, two cc in saccharide here. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 17:39:02 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hugo Veerkamp Organization: Stichting InterWorld Subject: new website hi bee-friends! it gives me pleasure to announce the birth of a new beekeeping website. "THE BEE PAGES" contain beekeeping faq's, many links to beekeeping sites, and info on the European Beenet. URL: http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/Hug.Bee/ note: URL is CaSe SeNsitIve! The site will be updated & enlarged regularly and you are welcome to come pay it a visit. I'll be glad to follow suggestions that you send to one of my addresses below. sincerely, Hugo -- Hugo Veerkamp #o# --------------------------------------------------------#o# | THE BEE BBS AMSTERDAM THE BEE PAGES | | Email: | mail : the Bee bbs | | hug.bee@beenet.iwg.nl | P.O. BOX 51008 | | hug.bee@net.hcc.nl | 1007EA AMSTERDAM | | | The Netherlands | | Beenet : 240:31/0 | modem: +31 20 6764105 | | Fidonet: 2:2801/28 | voice: +31 20 6715663 | #o# --------------------------------------------------------#o# ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:55:03 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Crystallization of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vladimir Ptacek wrote: > > As far as I know creeamed honey is a special form of crystallized honey > which has very fine crystals and tastes (physically) like a cream or > butter. Even the same kind of honey e.g. from the oil raps (Brassica > napus L.) can be in three basic forms: 1 - the liquid (immediatelly after > extraction), 2 - crystallized (if left untouched longer time) with large > and rough crystals, and finely 3 - the creamed one (when moved during the > crystalization) which has small crystals indistinquishable in mouth. > There is a patented process to make creamed honey by adding small bubbles of nitrogen (or carbon dioxide, not sure of which) to liquid honey. Air is not used because it can create oxidation and other unsuitable changes in the product. The liquid honey in this spread will crystallize between the bubbles just like in other crystallization processes. I'm not sure if it is legal to sell this spread as honey when something is added to it. There are strict regulations here in Europe at least for what may be sold as honey. But I belive this is not what most of us think of. At least not in this part of the world. The word creamed is often used for honey that has no air or other gas mixed in. It is not needed either to produce a honey that has so small crystalls that they are impossible to discover without a microscope with polarized light. When crystallizing honey with the Ekobi method you will not be able to feel any crystalls in the honey. It will appear just like butter. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 08:55:17 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends - I thought I better make sure everyone is clear of my role in this thread. In case it was confusing with the original posting, the individual who lost the hives is a friend of mine, Ken who lives near Kansas City, Missouri, USA and not myself. He is currently active in sci.agriculture.beekeeping newsgroup but not on Bee-L. I have been forwarding all mail in this thread from Bee-L to him. If you are wanting more details about his oil treatment, the best thing to do is to mail him directly at: BEEMAN52@worldnet.att.net. I know he is having samples of his bees tested at Carl Hayden Research and will let everyone know the results when they are in. I'm certainly gaining from all the input that has been given in regards to this thread. Thanks to you all. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:22:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Re: Meeting ideas In-Reply-To: <3282FF52.3352@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us>; from "Mason Harris" at Nov 8, 96 9:37 pm According to Mason Harris: > > Hello Bee folks! > > I was just nominated president of my county's Bee Guild last night. The > past year's meetings have been pitiful. Boreing, unimaginitive and > stale. I want to breed some new life into my bee club so I am turning > to the Bee-L for ideas. > > I would like to know what interesting ideas, events, contests, games and > projects people have enjoyed over the years at their bee meetings that I > might use to help our club. I feel the turn out will improve and people > will actually enjoy attenting meetings if I can spice things up a > little. > > If this is not an appropirate thread for the list, please mail me > directly. If you feel others may benefit from what you come up with, > post to all. > > Thanks > -- > Mason Harris, MA (\ > SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- > smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ > I, too would be interested in any ideas anyone may have. Fred Hollen Shenandoah Valley Beekeepers Association Augusta County Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:39:43 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Re: Meeting Ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I did a presentation on the internet to our local beekeepers group. I downloaded and printed several pages of information from several of the bee keeping pages. Yes, I used the pages of members of this list. I also printed several of the Bee-L messages that were of interest to our local beekeepers. The young people found it interesting and the older beekeepers enjoyed the variety and diversity of information presented. Just an idea, Richard Barnes rbarnes@halent.com south central Oklahoma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:18:00 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > AD>And... since the amount of fall feed was only 5 quarts per hive > -- > >if I recall, I would disagree with Andy and say that the syrup > >should not have been the cause of collapse. It seems to have > been >the failure of the mite treatment. > > Yee Gadds Bee Friends did I say that, I got to stop this late niter > posting. > > I hope not as I have never really found any reliable method of > judging individual beehive health problems without at least a hands > on look, and I try never to do that via the internet, and even with > a hands on look at tens of thousands sick hives that did die if they > are too far gone it is only a educated guess. But I must admit Well, I think once again Andy has managed to bullseye (this time in a few words) what we have been circling around. We want simple answers. There aren't any. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:20:38 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Catenary top bar hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have before me a book entitled"HOME HONEY PRODUCTION by W.H. Bielby that describes a catenary hive. It is a top bar hive thathas the ends and the sides curved in the shape that a hanging chain would make. The idea is that the bees will not attach comb to ends and bbottom of that shape. I built a couple of those hive a dozen years ago with the intention of putting a swarm in them but other things happened and I didn't get the swarms. I was out of the business at the time. Has anyone experience with catenary hives? The author was a Britisher but the book was republished in the USA in 1977. I don't temember seeing any top bar hives in Ethiopia but a couple of beekeepers tried homemade hives with sloppy bee spaces. The trick theree was keeping bees from abscounding. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:49:57 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Christopher Carrigan Subject: Re: Winter wraps In-Reply-To: <199608060040.AAA21590@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:40 AM +0000 on 6/8/96, Eric Abell wrote: *1. To close up the old hole in the blanket which will now be far too high *for the auger hole. The best idea I have at this point is duct tape. * I would be inclined to use "house Wrap tape". Mine is red, similar to that green box tape that is real thin and sticks well. The HW tape seems to stand up to weather a bit better than duct tape. I also use it to fix mouse holes in my winter wraps. (the ones that are home made with black plastic.) Christopher ________________________________________________________ Christopher Carrigan carrigan@cyberstore.ca Arras, B.C. V0C 1B0 Canada (250) 843-7205 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:43:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Catenary top bar hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I built a 3/4-scale catenary hive according to Mr. Bielby's book. It was basically for a model, but I made the bee spaces regular size, and hived a small swarm in it. They did great all through that season, gradually building up a fine brood nest, and eventually filled an additional 6" "super" about halfway with goldenrod/aster honey. (The super combs were natural, suspended from wax-coated dowels nailed across (inside) the top of the box). The experimental colony actually overwintered like this, much to my astonishment, and the next spring I allowed them to work up into a regular brood box and removed the catenary hive below. It was quite a success, and I found the hive very cheap and simple to make. The top-bars were 2-piece, with a 2" strip of brood foundation pinched between and nailed through. Spacing of the bars was accomplished by small nails driven into the ends of the bars, to the appropriate depth. The "curve" part of the hive was actually formed, not with 1/8" plywood (as per Bielby), which I couldn't find, but leftover formica sheet like is used to cover kitchen countertops. It was a bargain at the local hardware store. It is very flexible but smooth and plenty strong. I also stapled roofing paper around the hive, packing fiberglass insulation scraps around the curve-wall. This was probably not really needed. The whole thing is painted a shade of brown. Someday I'll make a couple of full-size ones, I think, as it was interesting and enjoyable project. The combs the bees made were extremely even and straight, mostly worker comb. As the season went on they became surprisingly strong, and I didn't have to worry about them breaking at all during inspections. BTW a fine queen excluder for this hive is just a sheet of heavy utility-plastic, as used to cover outside windows in wintertime. Hardware dealers sell it in inexpensive rolls. Just cut a piece to lay across the brood comb bars, with an inch and a half or so space left all around. The bees will carry the honey up around the edges, and the queen will be kept down by the plastic. Another benefit is the plastic prevents the natural surplus-combs in the "super" above from being connected to the brood-comb bars. (So you can remove the honey super without cutting the combs free). Give it a try sometime... JWG Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:54:37 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Sugars, invert, HFC and more Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Quoting from Andy's recent letter. <<<>>>> There is a short article in the ABJ for November 1995.headed Choose Carbohydrates Carefully for Your Bees, listing the various sugars suitable for feeding and stressing the danger of using invert sugar produced by acid hydrolysis. May I quote a small section. "A study in Germany found that the concentration of HMF in sugar syrups is indeed the factor that influences bee mortality. They found that HMF levels below 3mg/100gm of syrup did not kill bees. However, HMF levels of 15mg/100gm of syrup, which is common in commercially available acid hydrolysed invert sugars, causes significantly increased mortality." It appears that inversion by enzymes gives a very low HMF content and is safe. The article advises that the best buy is HFC555, but produced by enzyme hydrolysis, followed by ordinary sucrose, cane or beet sugar. The article was written by R E L Rogers, Apiculturist and Tree Fruit Entomologist, Nova Scotia Dept. of Agriculture, Kentville NS. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:13:33 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Spicing up bee meetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I responded to Mason directly (a no-no in some peoples book), but after seeing a second request I'll post directly to the list. > > A few suggestions: Get good speakers to come in and talk of their area of > expertise. Can't suggest who, as I am not familiar with your area. My > association is located in proximity to Cornell, so we are able to tap into > that resource. Perhaps UC, Davis might offer something. Speakers should > receive some sort of honoraria (fee). > > Second, tastings. We had a honey tasting featuring honey from all over > the world. It was a big hit! Perhaps your club has members willing > to donate honey from their private stash. Swizzle sticks make a good > honey dipper for small tastings. My club is sponsoring a mead discussion > and tasting at our next meeting (Nov 18 at 7:30 pm, if you can make it). > > We also have an annual "Pot Luck Supper" that is always well attended and > a lot of fun. > Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: H K Johnson Subject: Re: Spicing up bee meetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > I responded to Mason directly (a no-no in some peoples book), but after > seeing a second request I'll post directly to the list. > > > > > A few suggestions: Get good speakers to come in and talk of their area of > > expertise. Can't suggest who, as I am not familiar with your area. My > > association is located in proximity to Cornell, so we are able to tap into > > that resource. Perhaps UC, Davis might offer something. Speakers should > > receive some sort of honoraria (fee). > > > > Second, tastings. We had a honey tasting featuring honey from all over > > the world. It was a big hit! Perhaps your club has members willing > > to donate honey from their private stash. Swizzle sticks make a good > > honey dipper for small tastings. My club is sponsoring a mead discussion > > and tasting at our next meeting (Nov 18 at 7:30 pm, if you can make it). > > > > We also have an annual "Pot Luck Supper" that is always well attended and > > a lot of fun. > > > Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! hi folks, if you're anywhere near north carolina, there is a gentleman here by the name of Fred Deer who would be worth his weight in gold ( pun intended if he reads this ) at any meeting. He is a Master Beekeeper and a character of a person as well. To sit through one of his classes is a joy, his mixed in stories and jokes will teach you and put you into fits of laughter. He can be contacted through the NC beekeepers assoc. and i assume that he is listed in the directory for Raleigh NC. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:29:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey" Subject: Beekeeping Chat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I drive a truck and find myself checking my mail and surfing the net at all hours of the day and night. I appears that there is someone posting to the list at any given hour of the day since we are located all around the world. If we could set up a chat channel, and leave it up all the time, I believe there would be someone on it all the time. If you want to chat with particular person, then get up early or stay up late which ever the case may be. I would like to see this work because I think it would benefit all of us and help us get to know each other better. Frank Humphrey beekeepr@cdc.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:06:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Fighting Beekeeping Ordinances Comments: To: General questions Comments: cc: xdmj78a@prodigy.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The city of Pompano Beach Florida has an ordinance against a whole host of agricultural uses, including beehives. Mr. Michael Rudunick of that city wishes to change the law from no beehives to a few. Seems the city fathers are tradtionalists in the urban scene and not amenable to change. What tactics can Mr. Rudunick used to convince the city council to amend the ordinance? There used to be little evidence one could point to of the usefulness of honey bee activity. Now that the word is out that bees are scarce and as a consequence, home gardeners are berefit of pollinating activities, perhaps this will add to Mr. Rudunick's case. I know Murray Loring wrote an update of his book, Bees and the Law some time back, but I don't have a copy. I sent Mr. Rudunick a copy of my fact sheet on good neighbor guidelines and ordinances. It has a model ordinance which might be of use, but he needs more ammunition. Tom Sanford ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:08:37 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Beekeeping Chat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I drive a truck and find myself checking my mail and surfing the net > at all hours of the day and night. I appears that there is someone > posting to the list at any given hour of the day since we are > located all around the world. If we could set up a chat channel, > and leave it up all the time, I believe there would be someone on it > all the time. If you want to chat with particular person, then get > up early or stay up late which ever the case may be. I would like > to see this work because I think it would benefit all of us and help > us get to know each other better. I've found a *free* Microsoft program called 'Netmeeting' available from their download site. It allows using a *microphone*, a common whiteboard, or sharing screens between individuals or groups. You need Win95 to use it. I tried it last night with a fellow Ham radio op from Quebec, and it worked until it crashed my computer :( Three times! I think I have a hardware conflict. The problem happened only when he tried to show me his browser window. The voice and chat function --using typing -- went fine. I've has a hardware conflict I couldn't track down for some time, so I guess now I'll have to find it. The reason I called him -- a fellow Ham -- was it was my first try. When I saw the descriptions of all the folks listed on the server, I wasn't sure if I really should talk to them, or if I did, exactly what we would discuss. Probably not bees or the weather, 'cause many were soliciting 'gay chat' or other suggestive things like 'female, no lez's'. Oh oh! At least with a Ham, I know the conversation is one I can handle. Beekeepers too, I hope, but I didn't see any listed :( I plan to work on it more nad soon we may all be able to meet even more casually. Anyhow, if you get Netmeeting and get it working, try me tomorrow night from 7 to 9:30 MST. I may or may not be on, and if I am, my computer may crash, so don't take it personally if I suddenly become unresponsive. And if I'm in a conversation already, feel free to bust in -- it won't be private. The URLfor the software? http://www.microsoft.com/netmeeting/download/betadwnld.htm And BTW look for me on uls1.microsoft.com Later. Gotta run. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:56:49 +0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George_Willy Subject: Re: Meeting ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hello Bee folks! > >I was just nominated president of my county's Bee Guild last night. The >past year's meetings have been pitiful. Boreing, unimaginitive and >stale. I want to breed some new life into my bee club so I am turning >to the Bee-L for ideas. > >I would like to know what interesting ideas, events, contests, games and >projects people have enjoyed over the years at their bee meetings that I >might use to help our club. I feel the turn out will improve and people >will actually enjoy attenting meetings if I can spice things up a >little. > >If this is not an appropirate thread for the list, please mail me >directly. If you feel others may benefit from what you come up with, >post to all. > >Thanks >-- >Mason Harris, MA (\ >SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- >smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ Mason; Years ago there was a monthly meeting held for area beekeepers in this area being the North East kingdom of Vermont. The gentleman retired and everything stopped. I personally took the initiative to get it started again and have had 3 maybe 4 meetings to date. Our last meeting for this year was just held with a dwindling attendance. I have been offering information from this list to the members and have also offered to do research for the members. One request was the international queen marking system. The info was in hand within days. We have elected officers now and are planing a midwinter ( February ) pot luck supper with a local queen raiser as guest speaker. This spring I am going to try to get a few of the members to donate a nuc each and start a communal yard. In this yard I am now thinking that it would be a great idea to try the Top Bar hive you read about on the list along with the conventional langstroth hive and maybe some others such as a skep. We are planning to use the organization to couple up with other nearby bee organizations to buy sugar and other supplys wholesale. The organization is also going to offer information about bees to the local newspaper for a filler as a public promotion and awarness campaigne of apiculture. The organization will also work at marketing its members products at fairs and through the newspaper articles. The club hopes to have a beenet by fair time and to open a few colonys for the public to see. We are also thinking of caring and sponsoring an observatin hive at the three area schools science class. Because of a wonderfull elderly gentleman in this neck of the woods by the name of George Lund, I have been able to learn some of the skills of beelining. This is the art of capturing wild bees in the field and later feeding and releasing them to find their hive. At present I have one wild colony in the back yard in a 2'dia cedar by 8' ht. Cut, hauled, and reerected from 10 miles away. Unfortunately the mite problem is devastating the wild stock. At any rate we are going to have field trips of beelining seminars open to the public on several weekends. Thats all that I can think of, we're only 4 months old. I could use more ideas. I think to, that it is important that the members do the planning of events and you as president pull it together or do the deligating. George ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:03:35 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Meeting ideas Mason, Congratulations! We introduced a "Bees in Cyberspace" section for input from this list and elsewhere on the net. It never fails to generate discussion. We have started three club hives for demonstrations, experiments, and, yes, income! We try to find speakers from honey packers, museums, etc. We bring in an observation hive now and again if it has problems. We also sponsor a 4-H fair honey cooking contest, with a free pound jar to each contestent. We have a "Gadgets and Gizmos" program planned, for everyone to bring in their inventions... Go for it! Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA On Fri, 8 Nov 1996 21:37:38 +0000 Mason Harris writes: >Hello Bee folks! > >I was just nominated president of my county's Bee Guild last night. >I want to breed some new life into my bee club so I am turning >to the Bee-L for ideas. > >I would like to know what interesting ideas, events, contests, games >and >projects people have enjoyed over the years at their bee meetings that >I >might use to help our club. I feel the turn out will improve and >people >will actually enjoy attenting meetings if I can spice things up a >little. > >If this is not an appropirate thread for the list, please mail me >directly. If you feel others may benefit from what you come up with, >post to all. > >Thanks >-- >Mason Harris, MA (\ >SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- >smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 02:10:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Fighting Beekeeping Ordin T>The city of Pompano Beach Florida has an ordinance against a whole >host of agricultural uses, including beehives. Mr. Michael >Rudunick of that city wishes to change the law from no beehives to >a few. Seems the city fathers are tradtionalists in the urban >scene and not amenable to change. What tactics can Mr. Rudunick >used to convince the city council to amend the ordinance? Hi All, Except for the old reliable camouflage and concealment of the beehives there is little that can be done to reverse a city ordinance once it is signed into law unless you can convince the majority of the law makers to vote it down and that would be a rare occasion. They then would have to have a new more liberal ordnance to replace it with. Most beekeepers don't have the political will to do the work it would take no matter how well armed with the facts. But it could be done if the beekeeper was politically active. A change in an ordnance like this could take notification of all who would be affected by the change, a public hearing, maybe several if there was several city committees such as "parks and recreation", "public safety", more hearing, and input from committee to the city board and so on...thats why so many people vote for "grid lock" and consider a year when few laws are passed as worthy of notice. T>There used to be little evidence one could point to of the >usefulness of honey bee activity. Now that the word is out that >bees are scarce and as a consequence, home gardeners are berefit of >pollinating activities, perhaps this will add to Mr. Rudunick's >case. I know Murray Loring wrote an update of his book, Bees and >the Law some time back, but I don't have a copy. All the hype in the world about how beneficial bees are to man, or how good beekeepers are as deserving giving people, direct descendants of John Appleseed each one, is destroyed by any one person who believes that it is only a matter of time before "killer bees" will be killing the pets, children, and good citizens of Your Town, USA...and there is one in every crowd of people, including we beekeepers sorry to say. In a risk free democratic society bees are not an acceptable risk and all the commerce and history they may bring with them will not alter that. One only had to watch the congressional debates on the death of the Honey Support Program to witness how a few with as good arguments for a "bee free society" as you will ever hear were able to nullified 50 years of work by hundreds of wise beekeepers and friendly congress people with a few short speech's and mostly from men who represented some of the best beekeeping pastures and oldest beekeeping families in the US. Score another one for those who hyped the anticipated arrival of the African Bee for the sake of science and the grant money they would gain when statistical and scientific information was available that these bees would not necessarily be more then a challenge to beekeepers and a curiosity to science, and I am sure some are still waiting to hear of the deaths of thousands of innocents here in California and other places. But then if we base what we believe and our science on what we read in the TRASH papers maybe we should not complain. The majority of people in South America have only the sensational tabloid type press as their daily newspaper and even then we translated "Maw Maw" to "African Killer Bees", and scored the death from bee stings the same way we inflated the body count of enemy solders killed in Nam. Some in the beekeeping research community still repeat the lies of 800 deaths in countries so small that such a loss would be tantamount to a natural disaster of the magnitude of a 1000 keys of nuclear bombs dropped on their heads with pictures and testimonials to support. Bees do attack chickens when they are tethered to the beehives, a proven, undisputed scientific fact, but who would tether one other then someone looking for a good picture of bees attacking a chicken. It was done...!! T>I sent Mr. Rudunick a copy of my fact sheet on good neighbor >guidelines and ordinances. It has a model ordinance which might be >of use, but he needs more ammunition. Laws can be changed, it is much easier to de fund a program then change a law, in this case the law would have to be replaced by a more liberal law and it would require a lot of energy and effort that could be put to as good use to find a locations outside the city limits and sometime that would be several miles from the city line as today there are little things called "sphere of influence" that prepare for future expansion of cities that could have the same laws as the city. But a location outside the city could be shared by many or one beekeeper or just hide the bees in the attic, or garage, and live on the cutting edge of the law as the majority of beekeepers do everyday in the US. I must admit that a few hives or hundreds depending on the size of the city can do very well in the public environment and I myself have watched my city grow around my honeybarn but I am protected by the grandfather laws and have had little problems in the past having 2,000 or more baby nucs happy in their work and 100 hives full time out of sight in back of my honeyhouse. Out of sight is the key, landscape to hide bees, honeybarns, and bee junk. My own home is only several thousand yards from my honeybarns but in town and several blocks away. When I moved into town the first thing my new neighbors asked was if I could bring a hive home so the bees would work and pollinate their flowers. I did that the next night. At the same time I had a hundred hives in back of my honey house that for years had been working every flower in town and flowers for miles around, including the darn old humming bird feeders with the red dyed syrup. It may be time to go back in time and build very art'ee beehives that can not be called less then good garden statuary with the bees concealed inside and departing through concealed entrances. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Two wrongs don't make right, but three rights make a left ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:43:49 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Meeting ideas On Fri, 8 Nov 1996 21:37:38 +0000 Mason Harris writes: >I want to breed some new life into my bee club so I am turning >to the Bee-L for ideas. > Mason, and all, We also have a pot luck to start every meeting (starts 1:00 pm Sundays) and then for the December meeting, we all bring presents, some labeled just male or female and redistributed, but some (most) donated for an auction. We raise $300+ bidding on anything from cutely hidden $20 bills to wax bowl rings to a gaudy bear that gets recycled every year. We have some expert woodworkers who donate hive parts, and get a local auctioneer to do the honors, for free dinner and a gift pack. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:01:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Fighting Beekeeping Ordinances Greetings BEE-Ler's ! I have had up to 10 hives in my backyard in sunny Santa Rosa, CA for several years until last spring when we had the most active swarm season I've ever experienced. My neighbor unfortunately was not happy when one of her little kids got stung while I was working a mean hive. Some swarms also lited in her trees over several months. Then they put in a little swimming pool. More kids, more noise, more trouble. Then I got a letter from the city. I had 10 days to remove my hives ( less than six by that time) and my three hens as well. My bees are on county property now, less convenient for me but less hassle. The city laws should protect the residents. The bees were a threat, the result could have been legal action. I think the no-bee law is a good law. If you have bees and your neighbors don't care...great. But if they do protest it's our responcibility to respect their concerns. City animal laws only keep things from getting out of hand. There's no bee police here, just neighbors that don't need another thing to worry about. Harry Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:10:47 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: WBC Hives & so forth & so on... Comments: To: Joel Govostes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I like your posts, Joel, but I must take issue. Of course my view comes from a different vantage point, so I know you won't take offense... > until the 1940's/50's,the usual big apiaries consisted of > solely Langstroth 9 5/8" deep chambers. > > Nowadays, it's a different story. Commonly we find that beekeepers > are using 2 Langstroth deeps for brood and wintering, and for the > crop, the hives are supered with 6 5/8" (Dadant depth, or "3/4") > "medium" honey supers. We have a few thousand mediums that we obtained when we bought another outfit (maybe they went broke from handling 1-1/2 X too much stuff?) We are selling them as fast as we can because: They are too light, even when full. It means a lot of extra carrying -- or strained backs when guys try to carry two. There are too many parts. There is 1-1/2 as much maintenance per pound of honey. There is 1-1/2 as much extracting to do when we get them home. That means 1-1/2 as much money spent on labour and 2/3 as much honey in the drum at the end of the week. I really wanted to believe in them, but after two years, I have concluded that they have no place in a large outfit (mine at least -- I know there are a couple of guys here who will argue). > I have often wished that the Dadant or Jumbo Langstroth (10 > Dadant-depth brood frames) had become the standard here, over the > years. > One person > cannot safely lift and carry a double-deep langstroth,the shape is > all wrong -- but most folks COULD lift an entire colony in a > Dadant/Jumbo; AND not have to staple everything together to do it. > About the only big disadvantage to the large brood combs is that the > bees tend to chew away the bottom portion. There are ways of > preventing or fixing this, tho. (entrance reducers?) I cut a bunch down 20 years ago and have regretted it ever since. They were the perfect brood box. However I don't regret having only one size of comb, and one size of box. Besides... Permadent don't make jumbo foundation. If they did, well... I'd sure be tempted. > The Manley extracting frame is to me an ideal design for ... > Well, I had them too. I hand built 125 Farrar hives (10 boxes high) and used them for brood and honey. They were very nice (I'm a good carpenter). However, I'd never go back. > so here we are, > running too-prolific bees on too-small/wrong shaped brood combs. Two standards are too big for a brood chamber -- they give anyone but experts a royal pain trying to use excluders -- but what the heck. Everyone on BEE-L is moving to top bar hives next year. At least I am (for a couple of hives anyhow). And if I were a hobbyist? Nothing but. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:27:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: BIG HIVES Greetings BEE-Ler's ! A fella from the west coast ( the shoreline ) was telling me how the bees there tend to swarm themselves silly. I've seen it. They swarm until there's no defence against robbers. I live 30 miles inland and have normal swarming. He wanted info on an 11 inch deep frame thinking that it would provide a better brood pattern that would control the swarming. So if anyone "out there" has had any experience with these larger brood boxes I'll be scaning my puter. Peace man, Harry Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:39:37 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Honey as a wound dressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm looking for references to honey as a wound dressing. It was a common wound dressing in the US Civil War, but has been usurped by modern medicine. I have the reference to manuka honey to treat ulcers (thanks Nick!), but I'd like to find reference to honey as a topical salve for cuts, scrapes, burns, etc. Surprizingly, there is nothing in _The_Hive_and_the_Honeybee_. Suggestions anyone? Thanks in advance, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:32:05 -0600 Reply-To: "Marla S. Spivak" Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Marla S. Spivak" Subject: Re: Honey as a wound dressing > I'm looking for references to honey as a wound dressing. Try: Eva Crane's book, Bees and Beekeeping, 1990, Comstock Publishing Associates, Ithaca, NY. pp. 426-427, "Honey in medicine and pharamacy." Marla Spivak Dept Entomology 219 Hodson Hall University of Minnesota St. Paul, MN 55108 (612) 624-4798 ph (612) 625-5299 FAX spiva001@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:26:22 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: Honey as a wound dressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The New Zealand Honey Research Unit pages have some really good, detailed, documented information on this! Try Dr Peter Molan's site at: http://quasar.sci.waikato.ac.nz/Subjects/Biology/Honey/honey_page.html I think you'll agree it has just about everything you'd want on the subject of honey as a wound dressing, why it works, and potential for the future. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:33:43 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kay Lancaster Subject: Re: Honey as a wound dressing In-Reply-To: <961112.094603.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Aaron Morris wrote: > I'm looking for references to honey as a wound dressing. It was a common > wound dressing in the US Civil War, but has been usurped by modern > medicine. ... Try searching MEDLINE ... honey was being advocated in nursing journals about 10+ years ago as a topical treatment for decubiti (bed sores). Kay Lancaster klier@fern.com just west of Portland, OR USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 8 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:29:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: WBC Hives & so forth... Comments: To: allend@internode.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen, thanks for your comments. I can't really argue that for a large operation, keeping to one (deep Langstroth) comb size makes the best sense. I recall a few years ago, having for the first time some deeps (new foundation) which I had put on a number of colonies in July, because I was out of the smaller supers already. Well that was a good buckwheat year, and the bees filled those deeps with beautiful capped combs of strong buckwheat honey. These I harvested, and began running the combs through a lil' Maxant 3-frame extractor. I was amazed at how FAST i was filling the pails! (Even though I had to reverse the frames by hand.) It was so different from spinning the smaller combs. The handling factor is an important issue, for sure. It was readily apparent just from that exercise. In fact I then began scheming to convert to all deeps, since the extracting was so much more efficient. Alas, I changed my mind after a few more bouts with lifting and lugging off the really heavy deep supers. The distance from hive to truck can seem like a mile! Now, if you have access to lifting devices, as all serious commercial ventures do, then it makes even more sense to go with the deeps. An obvious advantage is that if and when you need quality brood combs in the spring, you can select just what you need right away. One commercial guy just north of here (well, at least he was still trying to be "commercial" last I knew) had lots of deeps for honey supers on his ~ "600" colonies. Soon after starting in the business he started cutting them down or junking them in favor of the medium-depth ones. Somewhere along the line he was convinced that the deeps were too heavy. Still, he was running a couple of old ~45 frame extractors, and I can just imagine how much honey he could spin in a single day with all deeps. I guess the handling costs did not dissuade him from moving to the shallower units. Did you ever wonder if mankind is getting weaker as time goes on? 50-lb. feed sacks where there used to be 100-lb. ones, etc. By the way, A deep super is not nearly as bad if you have cleats to grab onto. The grip with recessed-handholds-only makes maneuvering difficult when those babies are full; wouldn't y'all agree? Best regards, JWG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: WBC Hives & so forth REGARDING RE>WBC Hives & so forth Joel Govostes wrote: >Did you ever wonder if mankind is getting weaker as time goes on? 50-lb. feed sacks where there used to be 100-lb. ones, etc. By the way, A deep super is not nearly as bad if you have cleats to grab onto. The grip with recessed-handholds-only makes maneuvering difficult when those babies are full; wouldn't y'all agree?< I don't know about "mankind", but I sure do know I'm not as strong as I was ten or fifteen years ago. Handholds or cleats, if the supers are stacked 6 or 7 high (6 1/4" supers, that is) on top of 3 deep chambers for the hive body, it is all that I can do to heave them off the way it is. Especially if the supers are stuck together with burr comb way up there! Everyone will make ones own decision, of course, but the deep supers are *way* too heavy for this beekeeper. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:31:26 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andrew Matheson Subject: Meeting ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mason Harris found himself in the hot seat as president of his county's Bee Guild, and asked for ideas to breed new life into the group. There was an excellent article, or perhaps series of articles, on how to make your beekeeping association work; in Bee Culture last year some time. Sorry I don't have the exact reference (it is annoying when people allude to, but can't refer to, articles!), but I no longer have access to this useful magazine. Hopefully someone will be able to look it up and post the reference, or post (English; US=mail) the article to Mason Harris. In writing that I remembered that I'd written an article entitled "Making your beekeepers' association work" for the Scottish Beekeeper; as there might not be too many copies of that journal in California (?) here's a summary of the part entitled "Meetings should be fun": Every meeting should have a programme advertized in advance. Have the interesting part of the programme (e.g. guest speaker, demonstration) first and your group's business last. Better still have the administration dealt with by a small committee which reports to the full group (again, after the interesting stuff has happened). Have starting and finishing times that you stick to. Plan programmes of different levels and formats, to suit different levels of experience. Arrange your programme well in advance; publish it (including venues and times) with names and phone numbers of association contacts. Don't restrict your meetings to strictly 'beekeeping' topics; there are plenty of interesting ones which are relevant enough for the group not to lose its focus (back problems, sting allergies, tying down loads, stress management, tax law, bookkeeping, marketing). Have field days which can include apiary and honey house visits, contests, activities for kids and non-beekeeping family members. In a pollination area visit growers to find out more about the crop from their point of view. Visit a beekeeping equipment distributor/manufacturer, or a honey processing plant. Have a 'working bee' at the club apiary. Try a bus or car convoy visit to events or places of interest outside your district. If you have a newsletter try and keep it attractive and readable; maybe someone else wants a turn as editor! And in this day and age there's no excuse for it not to look very professional; perhaps even published on the worldwide web. Get members' feedback on what you're doing, and suggestions for new ideas. Good luck!! Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:37:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael J. Schuerger, Sr" Organization: Rayson Computer Services Subject: Re: Federal Funds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Federal Funds" are not "free" not matter how various politicians and lobbiests act like they are. The source of "Federal Funds" are various fees and taxes collected from people. (Please note that taxes paid by businesses, even corporations, are still paid by people - a corporation is a legal fiction owned and run by _people_.) If you haven't noticed, payment of taxes is not voluntary. Lots of people are not happy with things being paid for with our taxes. When *anyone* wants "Federal Funds" for what citizens don't want to spend tax dollars on, it *FEELS* a lot like theft. You are saying, "I don't want to pay for this myself, I want to reach into your pocket and the pockets of your children and grandchildren to pay for what I want but am not willing to pay for myself." If you don't understand this - and simple as it is, many don't - then you are part of the problem. It is, IMO, also unreasonable to bring up "Federal Funds" in this forum and then complain that this is not a political forum. If you don't want to talk about it here, don't bring it up here. If you don't like the answers you get, we don't guarantee you will. Note also that this is an international forum, and many here are not interested in the Yanks' political squabbles. Lastly, IMO, if you want more bees, do it like the rest of us - buy them or "make increase." Michael J. Schuerger, Sr. York Township, Ohio, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:44:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael J. Schuerger, Sr" Organization: Rayson Computer Services Subject: Re: Federal Funds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _First Ammendment_ covers "free speech," Dave. _Fifth_ is about indictment by Grand Jury, double-jeopardy, due process, self-incrimination, and compensation for property taken for public use. A slip of the keyboard, I'm sure. 8-). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:21:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Federal Funds (again) REGARDING RE>Federal Funds (again) Michael Schuerger propped up this overbeaten dead horse again. The same old arguments are heard again; some will agree with you and some disagree. Enough already! I'm tired of this subject, and would rather discuss bees. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:34:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Pesticide labelling language Comments: To: General questions MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have received the following information for those interested in pesticides and beekeeping: The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is proposing changes in statements on pesticide labels. It is proposing statements on pesticide lablels be changed if the pesticide is toxic to insects that are beneficial to crops, as shown in research data, of if the product is intended for application from bud through bloom or foliar application to agricultural crops, forests, shade trees, ornamentals, or for mosquito abatement. To minimize bee kills, pesticide products that are toxic to bees will be required to include one of two statements on the label to protect bees. The statement will depend on whether the pesticide has displayed an extended residual toxicity. The two proposed samples are shown below. They have already had wording changes from the original proposal and likely will have further ones before the statements are adopted. The label statements may be added to pesticide lables within one or two years. Comments on the proposal being published in the Federal Register for public comment may be addressed to Jim Bach, Washington Department of Agriculture, Box 42560, Olympia, Washington 98504-2560, phone #306/902-2094. Also one can correspond with Jim Downing, Office of Pesticide Programs, USEPA phone #703/308-8641 or fax 703/308-8369. Proposed statement #1-- This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct contact. During daylight hours, do not allow this product to come in contact with, either directly or through drift, blooming crops or blooming weeds that are foraged by domestic honey bees, unless used in accordance with a program specific to your state or tribe for the protection of bees. Do not allow this product to come in contact with bee hives at any time. Proposed statement#2-- This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct contact. Do not allow this product to come in contact with, either directly or through drift, blooming crops or blooming weeds that are foraged by domestic honey bees, unless used in accordance with a program specific to your state or tribe for the protection of bees. Do not allow this product to come in contact with bee hives at any time Tom Sanford ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:04:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Deep Honey Supers and harvesting Comments: To: allend@internode.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess a couple of strong young men could count as a mechanical lifting dev= ice! What a way to spend a day... I have worked for semi-commercial beekeepers in this area (200-400 colonies), who were using mediums. I was usually the one "carrying" and loading the flat-bed with the full supers, while the next ones were being blown out. On a hot July or August day those medium supers can wear you out too, especially when you are jumping on and off the truck every so often. I don't think I'd have survived with deeps! (Lately I'm victim of a sedentary lifestyle, I admit.) Allen - if you don't wait til the supers are all full, do you have difficulty with high moisture content? Or does it average out OK, given the nectar sources and weather? I wonder,too if you are up in the Peace River area, where the crops are still on the large side. Do they grow lots of legumes/alfalfa up in your neck of the woods, or do you rely on things like Canola? Any fireweed? I know with the Canola you can't leave the crop on til things are all filled and finished, as it granulates solid in no time. Perhaps this is part of the reason for harvesting early. I had a yard NW of here where some farmers were putting in big fields of Canola. It bloomed in late May or early June, and was a delight to behold. It was blazing yellow across the fields. The bees in that yard collected the Canola nectar, and lots of it. Some colonies had three supers =9Full within a =E7=F8uple of weeks. Later w= hen I harvested mid-summer, I was dismayed to find that the canola honey was solid like a white brick in the combs. There was no useful way of getting it out. It took a couple of seasons to work the granulated honey out by giving bees access to the combs (during spring or dearth). (Unfortunately the wintering success was miserable and I no longer have bees up there.) I guess Cornell or cooperative extension was encouraging experimentation with canola in NY for a spell. There was at least one agronomy professor who wrote some brochures on Canola cultivation and use as a trial crop in the state. Thanks again, Later... JWG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:59:21 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes-Castillo Subject: Re: Meeting ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:37 8/11/96 +0000, Mason Harris wrote: > >I was just nominated president of my county's Bee Guild last night. The >past year's meetings have been pitiful. Boreing, unimaginitive and >stale. I want to breed some new life into my bee club so I am turning >to the Bee-L for ideas... I like all ideas about how to bring to life a dull bee club. Particularly those on inviting guest speakers, I find stories on beekeeping in other countries fascinating!! But probably you should try to involve every club member in your activities. If each of you have an input, and share responsabilities, this year will be the best. (just a thought) Mauricio :) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:39:44 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Honey roasted peanuts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Beeliners, I've got a friend who asked me to look for directions on making honey-roasted peanuts. Anyone out there who's had any success at this? Thanks, Ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:44:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Deep Honey Supers and harvesting Comments: To: Joel Govostes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I guess a couple of strong young men could count as a mechanical > lifting device! What a way to spend a day... Some people pay for exercise like this. > Allen - if you don't wait til the supers are all full, do you have > difficulty with high moisture content? Seldom, and if it is a little high, then the packers don't mind if they know in advance. It saves on their water bill ;) > Or does it average out OK, given the nectar sources and weather? I > wonder,too if you are up in the Peace River area, No, we average around 100 pounds here. I'm halfway between Lethbridge and Edmonton. > where the crops are still on the large side. Not this year. They had another disaster. It's feast or famine there. > Do they grow lots of legumes/alfalfa up in your neck of the woods, > or do you rely on things like Canola? Both. > Any fireweed? No. > I know with the Canola you can't leave the crop on til things are > all filled and finished, as it granulates solid in no time. Perhaps > this is part of the reason for harvesting early. Well, yes -- and the fact that some hives get plugged. Since were going there anyhow, we might as well take the honey. Also our flow only lasts a week or three most years, so we get only two, maybe three pulls. Sometimes only one. Then it's over. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: Ian Watson Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Beekeeping Chat Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all I already mentioned the idea of a chat a while ago, but some of us dont have newer machines and cant run Win95 so I hoped to use an existing talker for our live deliberations. If anyone would like to try my local talker/chat, I can arrange to "meet" you there at an aggreed upon time. The address is: telnet://chardonnay.niagara.com 3000 I am in Ontario and we are in Eastern Standard Time My "Character Name" there is Blackadder. Here are some 'rules' for talkers if you are not a regular user... 1. It is not a good idea to give out any personal information, expecially in the "public" rooms. You never know who you are talking to. 2. It is Public place and therefore there are usually kids there. Obviosely foul language is not polite...;) 3. When you logon for the first time there are 2 things you must do before you are 'promoted' which means I or someone else will give you a larger selection of commands that you can use. 4 The two things you have to do are a) make a desription and b) make a profile. These are things you type either after your character name or in a file called .entpro which says something about yourself. It can be as little or as much as you like. 5 I have got a bit ahead of myself...When you logon for the first time, you first have to choose a "name" for yourself. The screen will say----> Give me a name: You then type something after the colon. This will be the "name" you want to be known as at the talker. Then you will be asked to supply a password ------> Give me a Password: After you type in your password and hit the enter key, it will say either "error" (or something like that) or it will ask you to re-enter it because it is a new password. Then after you do that, it will say "Welcome " and YOU ARE IN!!!! 6 You will find yourself in the main "room" called "Timesquare" because this talker is called "Cyber Manhattan". 7 If you decide to try out Cyber Manhattan, it woulldnt be a good idea to let the people know there that we are using the place to meet. I dont think they will mind, but they dont need to know either..:) 8 Thats all I can think of right now...Just remember, use some name that the others will recognise, or put something in your Profile that says you're a bee-liner. If you arent sure if another person is "one of us", use the .tell command which you will learn about when you logon and type .lost Also, type .help to get more help...:) Good Luck! By the way, I am usually there sometime between 9:00 pm and 12:00 midnight Ontario time... @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:52:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: Starting combs in TB and OTHER hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dear friends, >>From the sanitary point of wiev I feel as very important to find a way how >to construct maximum combs without using foundations since the wax used >in manufacturing them may be contaminated by cumulated residues from >previous treatments against bee diseases especially varroa. I dont know if >plastic frames would be a solution here, since they maybe can cummulate >residues, too. > >So I suggest to find answers on the following questions: > >1. How to arrange a frame for free comb construction > > to make it acceptable for both, the bees and beekeeper. This means > the frame must have some support (vires, nylon thread or so) and bees > should build regular combs in them, and this not only on individual > combs inserted somewhere between other combs but also in a block > arrangment (swarm in empty chamber ect.). > >2. How to make the free comb construction method most effective? > > This means to achieve maximum worker cells and so obtain combs useful > for brood rearing as well as for storing (and extracting) honey.I would > invite any idea related to this matter, e.g. what is the proportion > between worker and drone cells in TBH ? > >Best regards >Vladimir Ptacek >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Fac. Sci., Dept. Anim. Physiol. E.mail: ptacek@sci.muni.cz >Masaryk University phone: .42/5/41129 562 >611 37 Brno, Czech Republic fax: .42/5/41211 214 You make me wonder if it would be possible to produce a nylon, or other fabric, material patterned like foundation, and used in its place in the frames?> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: WBC Hives & so forth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > REGARDING RE>WBC Hives & so forth > >Joel Govostes wrote: >>Did you ever wonder if mankind is getting weaker as time goes on? 50-lb. >feed sacks where there used to be 100-lb. ones, etc. By the way, A deep >super is not nearly as bad if you have cleats to grab onto. The grip with >recessed-handholds-only makes maneuvering difficult when those babies are >full; wouldn't y'all agree?< > >I don't know about "mankind", but I sure do know I'm not as strong as I was >ten or fifteen years ago. Handholds or cleats, if the supers are stacked 6 or >7 high (6 1/4" supers, that is) on top of 3 deep chambers for the hive body, >it is all that I can do to heave them off the way it is. Especially if the >supers are stuck together with burr comb way up there! Everyone will make >ones own decision, of course, but the deep supers are *way* too heavy for this >beekeeper. > >Ted Fischer >Dexter, Michigan USA One of the few true (isms) that can be said of beekeepers: a beekeeper either has a bad back or will have a bad back. Ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 22:13:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Apple Production APPLE PRODUCTION IN THE US (A few FACTS and some Opinion) In looking over the California Fruit & Nut Review, 10-16-96, it is apparent that the reports of the decline of wild honeybee populations has NOT had the disastrous effect on the total production of insect pollinated fruits and nuts as some have predicted at least in California. Not minimizing the reports of fewer hives and the reports of less production in back yard plantings which could have several other explanations along with fewer honeybees. I won't bore you with the stats that show increased production over 1995 in California which was not the best of years in itself for fruits and nuts, but all insect pollinated fruits and nuts grown in California have showed increases over 1995 in 1996. To enlarge the scale of review to a nation wide perspective lets compare just APPLES which are viewed by most everyone to be sensitive to honeybee populations, both wildbees and hivebees. Some make claims that in 1996 up to 90% of the wild honeybees have disappeared and 60% of the hivebees have been lost from the effects of mites, mostly Varroa.. These claims may be true in one area or more but they are being hyped by some to indicate the fall of beekeeping as we know it and that I believe is wrong and just not the way it is or will end for beekeepers and the bees they keep. If this were true or based on more then superficial observations without background information it would indeed be a natural disaster that without a doubt would have the disastrous effect of reduced apple tree fruit production and much more in the US and if not leading us into total agricultural collapse as some would predict certainty making us more dependent on other crops and countries for our food which we all believe is in never ending supply and only requires the fertilization and irritation by the harvest of the money tree to guarantee increased food supplies. Others in the world are less fortunate and many children must believe that all food comes in boxes and bags marked with a Red Cross or the Red Crescent of international food relief organizations. We are blessed with the wealth of our land because we have always shared it and it will continue to be blessed as long as we continue to share in years of plenty and some not so. (My thanksgiving season commercial.) This disaster of no bees or less bees is not reflected in the facts and figures comparing the last three years of apple production in total or in the 11 states that have major acreages of apples....maybe next year? STATE 1994 1995 1996 -----------tons produced------------ California 525,000 425,000 475,000 Idaho 82,500 37,500 85,000 Michigan 510,000 610,000 362,500 New York 550,000 555,000 525,000 North Carolina 125,000 135,000 90,000 Ohio 45,000 60,000 45,000 Oregon 100,000 70,000 92,500 Pennsylvania 200,000 250,000 200,000 Virginia 152,500 200,000 150,000 Washington 2,925,250 2,500,000 2,800,000 West Virginia 75,000 87,000 57,500 other states 460,250 438,000 421,750 ------------totals-------------------- 5,750,250 5,368,000 5,304,250 As these figures are only for three years they do not show the trends of the last 20 or 50 years, but do show that total over all production has trended down and in some state yields were dramatically lower then the year before but in total and singularly if honeybees are the principle pollinators of US Apples then they have been on the job and can be expected to bee there in the future. I suspect that in some cases weather may prevent optimum fertilization that can be a grater factor then the numbers of bees available for pollination which is only the physical movement of pollen from one flower to another. Fertilization requires some critical times and temperatures and if they are not present no number of bees will make a difference. All should remember that I predicted the poorest almond crop on record from my own close up and personal observations last spring during the almond bloom because of poor bee weather and it turned out to be not big but bigger then 1995 and a very worthwhile crop. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "Where there are fruits & nuts, there are beekeepers" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:44:46 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin D. Parsons" <102372.624@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Apple Production Andy, So apple production reports don't show a big drop over last year. I'm not too surprised. I'm sure most of the apples being counted are from large producer who are in a position to see to it that the apples are pollinated, by renting bees. Rents may go up, but they will do what they have to do. The back yard trees may be a very different story. We have spent the summer looking to buy property a bit more "out in the country" than we are now. In every case, where there were apple trees there were essentially no apples. I often asked about the lack of apples. The usual response was that there had been a freeze. Well, I had the same weather they had and I have apples, and of course, bees. I know this is purely anecdotal, but I saw it at least half a dozen times. To be fair, I should mention that I started keeping bees 5 years ago because no bees visited my apple trees and I got very few apples. This may not be a new situation Kevin D. Parsons Pittsburgh PA USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:09:15 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Honey as a wound dressing In-Reply-To: <961112.094603.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The book ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture by A. I. Root has a brief reference to honey use in surgery on page 442 and another regarding propolis used as an antiseptic for surgical dressings on page 541. Doug Henry Lockport Manitoba On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Aaron Morris wrote: > I'm looking for references to honey as a wound dressing. It was a common > wound dressing in the US Civil War, but has been usurped by modern > medicine. I have the reference to manuka honey to treat ulcers (thanks > Nick!), but I'd like to find reference to honey as a topical salve for > cuts, scrapes, burns, etc. Surprizingly, there is nothing in > _The_Hive_and_the_Honeybee_. Suggestions anyone? > > Thanks in advance, > Aaron Morris > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 22:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Chat/Talker info In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi If anyone would like me to set up an account on the talker I mentioned earlier, you could send me a name you would like to use, and a few alternates in case the first or second is already in use, and I will set up the account and email you back the password, which you could change next time you go to the talker. Hope to hear from you..:) P.S. The address again is: telnet://chardonnay.niagara.com 3000 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:50:23 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bobby R Fanning Subject: Re: Meeting ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mason, I think this is the right place for this question. If you get direct responses, please put me on your list to receive all comments you receive. I have a really energetic well attended group going but I need ways to keep them that way. It does not just happen we have to fill a need, else we loose interest. Bob Fanning ---------- > I was just nominated president of my county's Bee Guild last night. The > past year's meetings have been pitiful. Boreing, unimaginitive and > stale. I want to breed some new life into my bee club so I am turning > to the Bee-L for ideas. > > I would like to know what interesting ideas, events, contests, games and > projects people have enjoyed over the years at their bee meetings that I > might use to help our club. I feel the turn out will improve and people > will actually enjoy attenting meetings if I can spice things up a > little. > > If this is not an appropirate thread for the list, please mail me > directly. If you feel others may benefit from what you come up with, > post to all. > > Thanks > -- > Mason Harris, MA (\ > SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- > smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:50:39 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bobby R Fanning Subject: Re: Meeting ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, Something to think about. Get in touch with your local Botanical Garden regarding the community bee yard. Here in Huntsville Al, our association has a demonstration apiary at the Huntsville Botanical Garden. We teach "practical Beekeeping" for the Garden. We spend 8 hours (not all in one sitting) in the class room starting in January and move to the apiary in March where the class installs a package of bees and continue to meet on Saturday mornings throughout the Summer to monitor their development and for hands on training. We are also planning to install an observation hive this Spring that can be removed by members and used for class room work. We also donate honey to the Garden for their gift shop to sell. Gives then needed income and makes us more welcome guest. Thanks for your post. I got lots of good ideas from it. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL ---------- > Mason; > Years ago there was a monthly meeting held for area beekeepers in > this area being the North East kingdom of Vermont. The gentleman retired > and everything stopped. I personally took the initiative to get it started > again and have had 3 maybe 4 meetings to date. Our last meeting for this > year was just held with a dwindling attendance. I have been offering > information from this list to the members and have also offered to do > research for the members. One request was the international queen marking > system. The info was in hand within days. We have elected officers now and > are planing a midwinter ( February ) pot luck supper with a local queen > raiser as guest speaker. This spring I am going to try to get a few of the > members to donate a nuc each and start a communal yard. In this yard I am > now thinking that it would be a great idea to try the Top Bar hive you read > about on the list along with the conventional langstroth hive and maybe > some others such as a skep. We are planning to use the organization to > couple up with other nearby bee organizations to buy sugar and other > supplys wholesale. > The organization is also going to offer information about bees to > the local newspaper for a filler as a public promotion and awarness > campaigne of apiculture. The organization will also work at marketing its > members products at fairs and through the newspaper articles. The club > hopes to have a beenet by fair time and to open a few colonys for the > public to see. We are also thinking of caring and sponsoring an observatin > hive at the three area schools science class. > Because of a wonderfull elderly gentleman in this neck of the woods > by the name of George Lund, I have been able to learn some of the skills of > beelining. This is the art of capturing wild bees in the field and later > feeding and releasing them to find their hive. At present I have one wild > colony in the back yard in a 2'dia cedar by 8' ht. Cut, hauled, and > reerected from 10 miles away. Unfortunately the mite problem is devastating > the wild stock. At any rate we are going to have field trips of beelining > seminars open to the public on several weekends. > Thats all that I can think of, we're only 4 months old. I could use > more ideas. I think to, that it is important that the members do the > planning of events and you as president pull it together or do the > deligating. > George ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:15:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Chapin Subject: address? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" BEE-L Can anyone help me with Charlie Mraz address in Vermont? Many thanks. Richard Chapin Montrose, PA, USA (\ {|||8- (/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 06:51:08 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris van Zyl Organization: PROGRO CONSULTANCY - PORT ELIZABETH Subject: Re: Chat/Talker info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Watson wrote: > > Hi > If anyone would like me to set up an account on the talker I mentioned > earlier, you could send me a name you would like to use, and a few > alternates in case the first or second is already in use, and I will set > up the account and email you back the password, which you could change > next time you go to the talker. > Hope to hear from you..:) > P.S. > The address again is: telnet://chardonnay.niagara.com 3000 > > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > @ Ian Watson @ > @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ > @ @ > @ THREE BEES: @ > @ Bach singer ,/// @ > @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ > @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ > @ @ > @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ > @ St. Catharines, Canada @ > @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@I am very interested. I am in Port Elizabeth - South Africa. Proposed names: Chris Peter Canary Regards CHRIS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:40:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Honey roasted peanuts EL>I've got a friend who asked me to look for directions on making >honey-roasted peanuts. Anyone out there who's had any success at this? I found this one and it looks good. Please send sample! __________________________________________________________ #Recipe by Cookin' With Kevin TITLE Kevin's Honey Roasted Peanuts INGREDIENTS 3 cups shelled nuts 1/3 cup honey 1/4 cup butter 1 tablespoon cinnamon 2 tablespoons granulated sugar 1/3 cup powdered sugar DIRECTIONS First, preheat the oven to about 325 degrees. In a small saucepan over medium heat combine butter, honey, and half the cinnamon. Stir well and remove from heat when the butter is melted. Dump the peanuts in a large bowl; add the honey-butter mixture and stir real good until evenly coated. Next, spread the nuts out evenly on a greased cookie sheet and place the nuts in the oven and roast for about 12 to 15 minutes. Be forewarned that the honey burns easily so give this operation your full attention. Now remove the nuts from the oven and quickly dump them back into that large bowl before they begin to cool. Add the granulated sugar and the remaining half-teaspoon of cinnamon. Stir well and spread nuts back out onto the pan to cool completely. At this point you will notice the nuts beginning to solidify into one large sheet. Not to worry. When the nuts are completely cool, break the chunks up with your hands and put the nuts into a different but equally large bowl. Add the powdered sugar a couple tablespoons at a time, and work it in real good with your fingers, breaking up the chunks in the process. Also found this for those who need more info about doing it big time contact the HONEY HOT LINE e-mail or phone below. __________________________________________________________ (//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////) (//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////) /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ | This months issue of HONEY HOTLINE contains good info on | | HONEY Peanut Butter made with Dry Honey. Including tests | | by consumers that rated regular old peanut butter vis | | Honey Peanut Butter. Also a shelf life report that con- | | cluded that the product will last 114 days at room temp. | | | | Two food product companies were spotlighted one for it | | use of a moderate 33,000 lbs of honey in 350 items. | | Walnut Acres, 800-433-3998 and Uncle Dave's Kitchen | | from Londonderry, Vt. a natural foods manfacture that | | uses honey in most of their products of sauces, mustards | | and a Bloody Mary mix. Their number is 802-824-3600. | | | | *HONEY HOTLINE is from the National Honey Board Food | | Technology Program and supported by taxes on honey. | | They are located in San Francisco and for more info | | try: 74512.2455@comuserv.com or 1-800-356-5941. | |____________________________________________________________| ttul the OLd Drone --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ik ben een imker in Holland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 22:51:53 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Chat/Talker info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Just to follow up to Ian's posting, we had quite a nice chat about bees on the 'talker'. I also met with several other beekeepers on 'Netmeeting', drawing and chatting and also talking (voice). Voice is still a bit unreliable, but the other modes work amazingly well. If anyone wants advice on this, I'm sure either Ian or I would be glad to help. Just reply direct, not to the list, please. (Read the header before hitting 'send'). I thought that we'd try to keep the clutter off this list, but if there are any things of general interest, I'll try to remember to post them here. I must say that the flavor in chat is *very* different from the formal air that tends to prvail on a list. Try it. you'll like it! (after you get used to it). :) Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 01:19:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Greetings BEE-Ler's ! Allen or any TBH fans, I'm a little in the dark. I have only learned of TBHs in the last several days. Still I'm not sure of all the specs. Height ? Width 20-24 frames Length 30" Shape of frame ? Number of stories 1? What makes these hives so great? I'm a hobbiest and a local independant dealer. I use a press to extract or cut comb. My langstroths seem to work very well. I can manufacture all my own equipt if neccesary. Is a TBH highly recommended? I love to experiment. Thanks, Harry Sweet Somewhere North of the Golden Gate. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 23:34:20 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Comments: To: "" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Greetings BEE-Ler's ! > > Allen or any TBH fans, > > I'm a little in the dark. I have only learned of TBHs in the last > several days. Still I'm not sure of all the specs. > > Height ? > Width 20-24 frames > Length 30" > Shape of frame ? > Number of stories 1? > > What makes these hives so great? > Funny. I just hired a guy today (labour) to do a few end of the season jobs. Turns out he was making TB hives in Africa on some mission (he volunteered this while we were chatting) without any knowledge of bees! Well, knock me down! Anyhow, it takes no formal woodwork training and the bees do fine. Instead of spending a hundred bucks or so at your favourite bee supplier for fancy precision woodenware, you just use *anything*. Frames are moveable, so they are legal. Maybe you get a little less honey, but for a hobby, big deal! ...Much less expense and little less honey. Dimensions are not critical. I gathered that the frames should be about 20 inches or so, unless you have longer lumber ;) The catenary idea makes sense, but anything more or less half round will do. Wintering might be a little harder up here in the Great White North. But it should be possible. BTW, I know nothing about this, so, maybe the others will tune this up a bit... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:40:51 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wrote: > Still I'm not sure of all the specs. > > Height ? > Width 20-24 frames > Length 30" > Shape of frame ? > Number of stories 1? You can choose your own size the only constraint is to slope the sides of the hive body to approximate the slope of a 'hanging chain'. Seems to me that my sides were @ 60 degrees (sloping out toward the top). Other than that - there are no frames. Just top bars, as the name suggests. > What makes these hives so great? They are not all that great, just new, interesting and fun (and, they are educational, to boot. They are a low tech alternative to the Langstroth. You can make them out of almost anymaterial you have available. I used plywood, because it is easy. One popular form of TBH is half of a 30 gallon steel drum. You get the idea. I would not replace my standard hives, just play with the TBH to see honeybee behavior from a little different point of view. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:47:45 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Fighting Beekeeping Ordinances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wrote: > > The city laws should protect the residents. The bees were a threat, the > result could have been legal action. I think the no-bee law is a good law. > If you have bees and your neighbors don't care...great. But if they do > protest it's our responcibility to respect their concerns. City animal laws > only keep things from getting out of hand. There's no bee police here, just > neighbors that don't need another thing to worry about. > I couldn't agree less. Bees maintained properly are rarely if ever a problem for neighbors (unless they can see them - then they are the root cause of any and all problems). We have had a city ordinance specifically allowing keeping of honeybees in Anchorage. We got it enacted about 10 or 12 years ago. We have yet to have a problem. Without legal bees all you have is feral colonies (they will be back, you know) and possibly they will be AHB. Who will provide support for problems then? The government? They will do great and it will only cost ten times what it should. Any city in the path of AHB should not only allow, but encourage controlled beekeeping. It is the first line of defense. To ban bees is asking for future trouble. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 09:36:04 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Capt Ken Black Subject: QUEEN INCUBATOR PLANS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone got plans for manufacturing a 30 queen incubator I have a few ideas. I am looking for a thermostat at the moment and have been considering reptile breeding tanks etc. Ken Black Bay Tree Cottage 76 East St, Fritwell '\ /` Bicester, ()() Oxfordshire, England. OX6 9QF \/ 00441869345725 Fax:00441869256678 email: kblack.lisa.mod@gtnet.gov.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:50:31 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: Propolis and bee forage -- a correlation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I thought I had read in one of the magazines published here in the states, about this time last year, a very interesting article on propolis composition. The essence of the article seemed to be that propolis (or at least the goo that the bees use to seal everything with) can be extremely varied. This variation can be from a variety of natural sources (tree sap, etc.) to man-made items like tar and other substances that I would not associate with the healthful, healing properties we normally ascribe to propolis. It seems that the bees were very opportunistic in their collection of propolis making substances, and that there is no one chemical composition of propolis. Rick Grossman Oregon, USA At 10:06 AM 11/11/96 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone know whether and to what extent the composition of >propolis alters with different bee forage? Any sources of further >information would also be appreciated. > >Thanks. > >Andrew Kidd > >University of Hohenheim (430A) >70593 Stuttgart >Germany. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:41:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Comments: To: "" In-Reply-To: <961113011906_1216607417@emout06.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, wrote: > I'm a little in the dark. I have only learned of TBHs in the last several > days. > Still I'm not sure of all the specs. Specs are "loose" except for the width of the tb's. They need to be 35mm for Italian bees. > Height ? Whatever you wish. I use 10 inch boards or there about. One hive is made with two old cabinet doors and must be about 15 inches high. I don't bother making my hives with sloping sides as in Kenya type hives. I don't find comb attachment to the sides to be much of a problem. In the few inches where comb is often attached to the sides, well, a little quick work with my hive tool made from a 12 inch shelf bracket takes care of that. > Width 20-24 frames I don't understand expressing width in number of frames. The width of my hive is determined by the length of the tb I choose to use. I originally made the tb's the same length of my frames and mixed tb's and frames in my "Langstroth type" hives. I didn't really care for the mixing. The bars were a pain in the neck to use on the tbh's because they would fall inside unless placed carefully. I made the next group of bars long enough to come completely out to the side of the hives. The bars will overhang the sides of some of the hives I've made from old desk drawers or 30 gal. plastic drums, but that doesn't matter. Just don't make them too short. > Length 30" Whatever length you choose is fine. Most of mine are for 20 bars. The hive made from cabinet doors is about 24 bars long. Original plans I got said 30 bars, and I think that would be good. Pull the honey as it is capped and then immediately replace the bar if you have a strong honeyflow on and fewer bars. > Shape of frame ? There is no frame, only a top bar. Mine are 35mm wide, a little longer than a standard frame, and have a 1/4 inch groove cut in the center of the length of the bar. I also make a notch, about 3/8x3/4 inches in the center of the bar, on one side only. > Number of stories 1? Yes, but you can super. However then you have supers to lift and more equipment. > > What makes these hives so great? They are cheap, fun to work, no heavy supers to lift, no sticky extracted combs to store and fight with wax moths to keep, less honey but more beeswax. I am a bit biased, but I think the honey tastes better if it is pressed from virgin comb and didn't come from old combs run though an extractor. These hives are great because they are a link to the past. They aren't new. TBH's have been used for centuries if I understand correctly. They obviously aren't great for commercial producers, otherwise they'd be in widespread use. > I'm a hobbiest and a local independant dealer. I use a press to extract or > cut comb. My langstroths seem to work very well. I can manufacture > all my own equipt if neccesary. Is a TBH highly recommended? I love > to experiment. *I* highly recommend them, and I'll never keep bees in langstroths again. They fit my goals and philosophy of beekeeping better. Harry, do experiment. That's the fun of beekeeping for me. Best wishes in your endeavors, and the same for all others on BEE-L. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 05:13:53 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: QUEEN INCUBATOR PLANS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Has anyone got plans for manufacturing a 30 queen incubator I have a > few ideas. I am looking for a thermostat at the moment and have been > considering reptile breeding tanks etc. We use a commercial chicken egg incubator made from expanded polystyrene. Cost was about $100 CAD (43 pounds Sterling). Any single stage incubator is only as stable in temperature as the room in which it is located. For *real* stability, a unit with double walls and two regulator/heater arrangements is necessary IMO. However this unit works fine if the ambient is controlled at all. We use it in the truck with a small Statpower inverter for 110V power sometimes. The biggest hazard is the sun. If it shines on the box at all, the temperature skyrockets. I've used an old fridge with a 60-100 Watt bulb for a heater and a commercial adjustable 110 VAC thermostat, however it was not entirely accurate either. Swings of 5 or more degrees F were *not* uncommon. I used a Radio Shack remote reading thermometer for reporting. It was quite accurate and responsive. An electronic fever thermometer is sufficiently accurate and reasonable responsive too. I think these temperature swings are why 92 degrees F is usually used rather than the 95.5 F that the bees themselves use. Slightly cool temps are less harmful than even short term overheating of several degrees. IMO anyhow. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:47:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: Re: QUEEN INCUBATOR PLANS Any Poultry supply catalog supplies a simple thermostat for about $12, they also carry a very nice little poultry incubator for about $30. The incubator holds 42 standard chicken eggs so it will be more than able to handle 30 queens. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:49:19 -0800 Reply-To: "alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Albert W Needham <"alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net> Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave from Scranton wrote: >Finally after 3 summers and one bear, I got my first crop of 23 pounds. It's in my kitchen in a 5 pound bucket that I got from the local donut shop for $1.00.< Prithee tell: How dost thee get 23 lbs of anything - never mind honey - in a 5 lb bucket? :-) Are thee using that new "Phen" (whatever it's called) diet product? Regards, -- Al Needham * Scituate,MA,USA * Alwine@concentric.net >"The HoneyBee" -All about Honey Bees-Nice Photos!< Download from: Http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:38:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Apple Production >So apple production reports don't show a big drop over last year. I'm not too >surprised. I'm sure most of the apples being counted are from large >producer who are in a position to see to it that the apples are >pollinated, by renting bees. Rents may go up, but they will do what >they have to do. Hello Kevin, Yes, they are the apples that go into commerce, you can be sure they were not all from big farms and many were produced without benefit of renting bees. Some here should have been washed better before being pressed into natural apple juice, that naturally made some people deathly sick and are causing sales of all apple products to take a dive with a new apple slogan "An Apple Today Can Flush Your Life Away". Could not be at a more sensitive time as apple juice is a natural during the holiday season. Looks excellent for pure Cranberry juice and Squash pies this year... I am not as sure as some are that pollination rents drive bee numbers. It would seem that with fair pollination rents and good honey prices that we are experiencing today there would be much more activity by beekeepers dramatically increasing their numbers. Maybe there will be, but it is not or has not happened yet as far as I can find out talking with the equipment suppliers which have been going down hill here for years. To confuse the bee pollination picture today here in California that depends on a thousand truck loads from out of state beekeepers there are reports that many are not coming back this next spring or are reducing the numbers they intend to bring and are instead heading south for greener pastures and lower production costs. I also suspect that most experienced beekeepers recognize that we may have reached the limits of good seasonal bee pasturage needed for our bees when they are not pollinating and are not going to increase that much. >The back yard trees may be a very different story. We have spent the summer >looking to buy property a bit more "out in the country" than we are >now. In every case, where there were apple trees there were >essentially no apples. I often asked about the lack of apples. The >usual response was that there had been a freeze. Well, I had the same >weather they had and I have apples, and of course, bees. I know this >is purely anecdotal, but I saw it at least half a dozen times. If honeybees were the only pollinator of the casual apple orchard or apple tree it would be easier to say the apples failed because of the lack of honeybees, but I am told that there are many other pollinators such as the Blue Orchard bee that are as good or better doing it to the apple flowers then honeybees, so they say. >To be fair, I should mention that I started keeping bees 5 years ago because n >bees visited my apple trees and I got very few apples. This may not be >a new situation Now you are on track, but I am not saying that crops are not suffering because of the lack of bee populations, as the facts are there to see, apple production is down in most of the apple producing states, and for those who got no apples it is a disaster, same as the beekeeper who for what ever reason has lost his bees in spite of the good care he gave them. What I am saying is that in spite of all the hype we give to our problems some are prospering to spite us all and we need to spend more time studying what they may be doing that is different then what we have done and not join the Flat Earth Society because a few fell out of the old apple tree. ttul Andy- Los Banos, Ca (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Nor will a bee buzz round two swelling peaches, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:29:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bernard JF =?iso-8859-1?Q?Blach=E8re?= Subject: Re: address? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:15 AM 11/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >BEE-L >Can anyone help me with Charlie Mraz address in Vermont? Many thanks. >Richard Chapin >Montrose, PA, USA > > (\ > {|||8- > (/ Here is the address you are looking for : Champlain Valley Apiaries W.A. Mraz PO Box 127 Middlebury, VT 05753 Tel : 802 388 7724 If you pass by, pay us a visit you are welcome L'Abeille Honey Winery 638 South Main Stowe, VT 05672 Tel : 802 253 2929 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:19:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: QUEEN INCUBATOR PLANS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:36 AM 11/13/93 +0000, Capt Ken Black wrote: >Has anyone got plans for manufacturing a 30 queen incubator I have a few >ideas. I am looking for a thermostat at the moment and have been considering >reptile breeding tanks etc. Hey there, Go to your local feed and seed store and ask for a replacement themostat for a chicken egg incubator. It is an expandable hollow cylinder filled with alchohol(sp) that as it expands it engages a switch. I hope to make one this winter for my spring splitting. I was thinking of using an ice box for the housing with a metal plate laying on the bottom. This plate would have several 5-10 watt resistors attached for the heating element. It would be a 12 volt setup so I could plug it into the truck cigarette lighter while apiary bound. I like queen cell protectors so near the top of the of the cooler would be an aluminum or plastic plate with holes drilled in it so the protectors would just fit. Threaded rods would connect the top & bottom. No modifications are made to the ice box (except possibly for the power cord) so the ice box could be used for those hot Florida summers! By the way. They now make ice boxes/heaters that plug into your cigarette which could be modified for this. They cost $40 to 60 though. Good luck...... God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:45:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Smoke's long-lasting effects Comments: To: "alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dave from Scranton wrote: >>Finally after 3 summers and one bear, I got my first crop of 23 >pounds. It's in my kitchen in a 5 pound bucket that I got from the local >donut shop for $1.00.< > >Prithee tell: > >How dost thee get 23 lbs of anything - never mind honey - in a 5 lb >bucket? :-) rather, 5 gal. -- standard 5 gallon pail -- would hold about 60 lbs honey. the doughnut makers buy their jelly or cream filling in them, and if you're lucky you can find a store where they will save them for you. used to be they would be free for the asking, then they started charging 50 cents, then 75 cents, and more lately I have had to pay $1 or even $1.20 apiece and they are getting harder to find or accumulate i wonder if maybe they have gotten popular with gardeners or other DIY enthusiasts, so demand for the used pails has risen(?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: WBC Hives & so forth... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joel Govostes wrote. >These I harvested, and began running the combs through a lil' Maxant >3-frame extractor. I was amazed at how FAST i was filling the pails! (Even >though I had to reverse the frames by hand.) It was so different from >spinning the smaller combs. The handling factor is an important issue, for >sure. It was readily apparent just from that exercise. In fact I then I believe one major factor in deciding whether to run deeps, shallows or in between is the extractor. We run a 6 deeps or 12 shallows extractor. When using deep frames we find that the bottom bar is so close to the center hub that the bottom of the frame revolves very slowly. To speed that bottom area up to a speed that extracts, the outside is too fast and we risk blowouts. So the extraction rate is a lot slower using deep frames. We now are changing over to a mid size. The frames being shallower are farther from the central hub, revolve faster, are drone brood and all in all extract in half the time. So all in all we prefer shallows. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:16:08 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wilson Subject: Re: Propolis and bee forage -- a correlation? In-Reply-To: <19961113085029.AAA6122@LOCALNAME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I recall reading an article in the '70s in either the ABJ or Gleanings in Bee Culture on bees collecting latex caulking and using it as, well, caulking or propolis. The article had photos of the propolis packed in the bees' corbiculum. It also raised concern as to chemical contamination of the hive. Apparently the caulking was freshly applied. regards Peter Wilson Edmonton, AB. Canada email: pjwilson@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Rick Grossman wrote: > I thought I had read in one of the magazines published here in the states, > about this time last year, a very interesting article on propolis > composition. The essence of the article seemed to be that propolis (or at > least the goo that the bees use to seal everything with) can be extremely > varied. This variation can be from a variety of natural sources (tree sap, > etc.) to man-made items like tar and other substances that I would not > associate with the healthful, healing properties we normally ascribe to > propolis. It seems that the bees were very opportunistic in their > collection of propolis making substances, and that there is no one chemical > composition of propolis. > > Rick Grossman > Oregon, USA > > At 10:06 AM 11/11/96 +0000, you wrote: > >Does anyone know whether and to what extent the composition of > >propolis alters with different bee forage? Any sources of further > >information would also be appreciated. > > > >Thanks. > > > >Andrew Kidd > > > >University of Hohenheim (430A) > >70593 Stuttgart > >Germany. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: WBC, extractors etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ... > We now are changing over to a mid size. The frames being shallower >are farther from the central hub, revolve faster, are drone brood and all in >all extract in half the time. So all in all we prefer shallows. > > > **************************************************** > * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * > * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * > * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * > * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * > Important point David. With radial extraction, the greatest force is farthest out from the center, so some of the 6/12 or 20 frame extractors might tend to be slow in performance, whereas ones with greater diameter (say 33 or 45 frame) would build up more force, emptying the frames faster and probably more completely. Another great thing about big extractors is - you can hide in them when your in-laws come to visit. If I had a tangential REVERSIBLE extractor, say 4-frame size, maybe I'd run deeps as honey supers. That would be a good system for a sideliner who wants to stay with hand-power. A four-frame reversible is (or was) offered by one of the suppliers in Quebec. A usualy bottleneck is the uncapping. If you can upcap the next load while one is already spinning (under motor drive), you can minimize wasted time waiting. I'm refurbishing an old Root 45-frame job and in its day, deeps were the rule for honey supers. I'd imagine many tons of honey saw their way out that gate. I wish the machine were somewhat smaller, but it should really do a number emptying out the medium size combs. If nothing else it's a piece of beekeeping nostalgia, big enough to crowd my shed. How are parallel radials when it comes to comb size, speed of extraction, or ease of use? Maxant lists a number of models. thanks, jwg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums On the size boxes we use: I converted from a deep + medium supuper operation to all mediums a few years ago, and have never regretted the change. Most of my hives are in "hike in" locations, and a full medium is a good load under those conditions. Also, by using mediums for both brood and supering, I always have plenty of drawn comb available, as well as a lot of flexibility with box locations. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:24:43 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:40 PM 12/11/96 -0900, you wrote: >> Still I'm not sure of all the specs. >> What makes these hives so great? > They are a low tech alternative to the Langstroth. Some historical background may help people understand where a TBH fits. A few years ago a beekeeper (Athol Desmond) from Zimbabwe visited us here in Sydney and told us about the TBH. He explained that traditionally, African peasants kept bees in hollow logs. As you can imagine, "managing" a colony in a hollow log is not very practical. Ideally they would all be persuaded to switch to the Langstroth hive that we all know so well. However the Langstroth hive id too expensive for many of these people. The TBH was developed and promoted as a compromise. The advantages of the TBH are 1) Impoverished beekeepers can make one at very little cost from whatever bits and pieces are available. 2) They allow an acceptable level of hive management. As I recall, there are only 2 important parameters. 1) The width of the top bars. When placed in th hive, adjacent top bars touch each other and thus create a "solid" lid. The honey comb hangs down from the center of these bars. Consequently, the width of these bars must the thickness of one honey comb plus one bee space. 2) The slope of the sides of the main box. These hives are wider across the top than they are across the bottom. The sides are sloped about 30 degrees from the vertical. This is the same slope that bees use when they build honey comb out in the open. Using that slope in the hive discourages the bees from attaching their combs to the side of the box. If you make the box as deep as a typical "free form" honey comb, it should be just right. The entrance is at one end only. Brood is raised near the entrance and honey stores at the other end. The beekeeper normally opens the hive by starting from the back. After he explained how the hive was made, I suggested several design improvements. Athol Desmond acknowledged that these suggestions would make the hive more efficient to work with but they also made it too expensive for the normal African peccant. With a Langstroth, we enlarge the hive by adding more boxes on top. With a TBH, I suppose you could extend horizontally from the back. Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:51:03 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums >I converted from a deep + medium supuper operation to all mediums a few >years ago, and have never regretted the change. Bill, Having converted, what is your winter configuration, 2 or 3 mediums? Also what changes if any have you made to spring super manipulations? Also for making splits? Just curious. Thanks, Jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 18:42:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Lion Dung evin Christensen write to ask if lion dung would keep bears away from hives. I have heard that such dung will keep deer away from my azaleas but my be just a bit of urban folk lore. The D.C. Zoo sells "Zoo Doo" but I've not been up there to get any. Lion dung is a bit hard to come by. All I can say, though, is that the bear dung that I found around my hives, certainly scared me away for awhile. Faith Andrews Bedford Ivy VA and Tampa FL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 00:29:37 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: processing propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 19:41 05/11/96 +0000, you wrote: >In article , "M.Westby (Max >Westby)" writes >>Dear bee people >> >>Greetings from Sheffield. Has somebody out there got a method for >>separating propolis from the bits of wood, bee and wax from my hive >>scrapings? I now have about 2 kg of the stuff and want to start doing >>something with it... >> >>Cheers, Max >> I have used industrial alcohol when I can get it or as an alternative surgical spirit which is much cheaper and easily obtained from the local chemist (pharmacist). I put the propolis scrapings into the liquid and try to get as concentrated a solution as possible. Heating in a water bath helps. Filtering is easy using a funnel and a coffee filter. The resulting tincture is amazing at healing cuts, abrasions, etc. and removing painful inflammation. A few drops in water is also good for mouth ulcers when used as a mouthwash. Although I like to use it, I hesitate suggesting it for other people and would never consider selling it as a tincture. If I had enough good clean flakes I would sell it "raw" to manufacturers who produce bona fide approved products. Isn't there a problem too that a lot of propolis these days contain an unacceptably high lead content? In our first years of beekeeping I conscientiously sealed hive roof joints with bitumen paint. The bees loved it. Their roof was water tight but they also collected it as a propolis substitute. Handling black sticky frames for the next few years was no fun Regards, Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon, UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 22:04:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Beekeeping Ordinances Greetings BEE-Lers, I wrote about city ordinances against bees in the city. We have in Santa Rosa, CA such an ordinance. In this city of 130,000 I know of a *lot* of backyard beekeepers. The point is that if your neighbor does have beephobia and does want the hives gone they should have the support of the law. In my case, a little brat kid who got stung in the eye and swelled up for three days and I had a lot of swarms this year and most of them stopped in my neighbor's yard. We've got an uproar in town this because this is an ag town and people have been getting a whiff of the *stench* of chicken manure. It's a new experience because we ran the chicken farmers out years ago. This is America, ain't it? Thanks to those who cleared me up on TBH's. Harry Sweet Wish I was in the Grand Canyon. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:16:21 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Lion Dung Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wrote ahumor tainted comment a while back about lion dung and bears. It seems as though the subject will not resolve its self so I will comment in a more serious manner. In Alaska the bears are at the top of the food chain,that means they will eat anything that they feel like eating including lions .(which there are none) Being unfamiliar with them would not cause them fear because in this environment bears are boss. In another environment with a different type of bears who knows. It would seem that in order to answer the question we need to study the environment to see how all the pieces fit togather. Once again the answer is probably dependant upon location. I will say this,The bears I know and love will not easily be discouraged. Chain link fences will work ,build it as a cage to keep your bees inand bears out. the bees do not like flying through it though so make it so the bees can fly over it. On the beaches in the fish camps smoke houses are sometime a pole structure covered with burlap and then covered with chicken wire. The chicken wire gets under their claws and between their teeth and they dont like it so they leave it alonre after a while. Maybe a chicken wire structure around the hives would work. What can you lose, try it and tell us what happened. Best luck Jerry Fries -- End --