Date sent: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:27:14 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9611C" To: "W. Allen Dick" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 02:18:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Blohm Subject: Re: address? In a message dated 96-11-12 23:04:15 EST, you write: << Can anyone help me with Charlie Mraz address in Vermont? Many thanks. Richard Chapin Montrose, PA, USA >> YES, The Grand master of Bee Venom Therapy's address is: Charlie Mraz P.O.Box 127 Middlebury, VT 05753 Also, if you need more information on BVT, the American Apitherapy Society address is: The American Apitherapy Society P.O.Box 54 Hartland Four Corners, VT 05049 Bee Well Rich Blohm, LI NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 06:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Queen incubators Ken Black asks about designs for queen bee incubators. I use an incubator to hold queen cells over night. The same can be used to hatch queen bees. I obtained an old refrigerator from the local electrical store. I use an old refrigerator because it is already well insulated. I purchased a thermostat that is designed for a chicken incubator. This has less temperature variation than most other thermostats. The last thing you want is overrun on the heating cycle. I have two 60W light bulbs. Two because sometimes one blows and one will keep it going. I use rigid construction light bulbs as these last longer than normal household light bulbs. I have a thermometer inside and a digital one with a thermocouple for outside reading. I used to have a small computer fan for circulation but after this failed, and actually caused extra heating in the incubator, I never replaced it. I felt that the convection currents from the heat of the light bulbs gave enough circulation. A tray with water in the bottom helps keep the humidity up. A tip. If you want one for 30 queens, make it for 60. You will be sorry later if you don't. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Having converted, what is your winter configuration, >2 or 3 mediums? Also what changes if any have you made to spring >super manipulations? Also for making splits? > > Just curious. Thanks, > > Jim Hi: I'm not Bill, and I'm not converted to mediums, but I thought I'd jump in on this thread. I used to use all deeps for many of the reason's Allen mentioned. Then one day Charles Mraz (his address is another current thread) visited PEI beekeepers, oh about 12 years ago (he gave a rather impressive apitherapy demonstartion). He was already OLD then. He said to me its ok to use all deeps when you are young but it is just not possible when you are my age. Since I'm 46 now and don't want to milk cows for the rest of my life and since it looks like the Canada Pension Plan will be bankrupt by the time I can't sling deeps around anymore I have started mixing in quite a few mediums. By the way, I once bought the bees and equipment (about 15 hives) from an old fellow in New Brunswick. He was 92. His family kind of asked me to do it. They were tired of helping him move supers. I saw his daughter in law a couple of years later and she told me he went back into the bees! I thought "good for you, mate" as I could see when I took the equipment that he was not relishing the thought of losing his little friends. But I bet he switched to mediums. What size supers do you use Sid Pullinger? You must be 115 or so aren't you, with all your tales of beekeeping early in the century :) (Keep them coming, I really enjoy your posts a lot). Anyway, back to the thread. I overwinter in all different sizes and combinations of boxes. (I'm 46 degrees north on an island in the Gulf of St. Laurence). I keep the hives in lines of five on stands of two eight foot 2 X 4 on edge and then on blocks. Since I push the hives together to get the sides in contact for the winter I try to keep the same height of hive on one stand. But some have singles, some doubles (this is the most common) some one deep one medium (this is very common), some are two deeps and one medium, and a few are three deeps. Now this would be a nightmare for a big commercial outfit like Allen's, but for someone who does all the management himself and doesn't have to direct workers it is possible and has some advantages. All the configurations seem to winter quite well if they have stores, good queen, young bees. I can choose the size when I am taking off honey and evaluating the condition of the brood chamber (I don't use queen excluders that much except for finding queens). The singles are often overwintered over a strong hive.(Even a single medium can survive the winter here like that). They generally survive the winter and do good the next year but they are not always of sufficient strength in late spring to rent out for blueberry pollination. One deep and one medium seems to give good results and a rentable colony. Two deeps is much the same with the occasional dividable colony. Two deeps and one medium has given me some lovely spring colonies that I can often divide. I leave one deep with the field bees and move off one and a medium. It is possible to arrange the frames of brood compactly with this arrangement so that the bees remaining can heat them. (Sometimes I put them over another colony). Three deeps is something I am moving away from. I find the pollen in the bottom box sometimes goes mouldy. Besides the price of honey, I must admit, has made this rather an expensive proposition. And our fall honey granulates quickly and so sugar syrup may actually equivalent value as winter feed. But I will note that this is how old Mr. Mraz wintered his 800 colonies (I think his son helped). He said he tried to avoid lifting the deeps. He used to tip the colony over (he probably used a hand cart) and divide the supers while it was on its "back". He did most of his decision making on splitting just from looking up into the divided boxes. Then he might move a few boxes and tip the remaining ones back up. He made "blind" splits and let the bees raise emergency queen cells. I thought, well if you can keep that many colonies at your age, and do all your apitherapy stuff besides, there must be much to be said for your system. I do not recall whether he used mediums in the brood chamber but he certainly supered with them. Regards Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:41:04 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: WBC, extractors etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >How are parallel radials when it comes to comb size, speed of extraction, >or ease of use? Maxant lists a number of models. thanks, jwg Hi Joel: Pardon my ignorance, but what is a parallel radial? I can't visualize it, because the two words seem contradictory. Could we get a short description. Thanks, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 06:47:49 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Laying HIves Down & Self requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > He used to tip the colony over (he probably used a hand > cart) and divide the supers while it was on its "back". We had a device like a laddder that we used 15 or 20 yeras ago to do that. It works well if your hives ar in a row, but not so well in 4 Packs. However we do still tip our doubles forward in Spring to evaluate and scrape and split -- without any device. > He did most > of his decision making on splitting just from looking up into the > divided boxes. Then he might move a few boxes and tip the remaining > ones back up. That's how we like to make one round of our splits -- whole boxes at a time without removing frames. > He made "blind" splits and let the bees raise > emergency queen cells. We used to do that, but have since gone to using mated queens or cells. Although the bees *will* generally raise queens if your timing is right, the quality varies from great to lousy, for reasons discussed in detail on this list before. If emergency cells are to be used, it is adviable to go 3 or 4 days later to destroy any capped ones to ensure old larvae do not become 'queens'. (They will be to some extent intercastes, and not head econonmic colonies). If bad weather happens to intervene, the cells may not be well fed, and, besides, some colonies just do not raise good cells. Because this cell destroying trip requires and extra round, and hunting through the splits -- as well as requiring at least an extra 12 days in development -- using cells and mated queens has a distinct advantages over emergency cells. The self requeening takes 21 days on average. Introduced cells take about 11 days to start laying (but may need 20). Mated queens start as soon as they can get out of the cage (depends on intro method). The latter two methods permit some stock improvement and selection. Any of the above may fail and require back up procedures. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:31:42 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Lion Dung... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:16:21 -0900 > From: Jerry Fries > Subject: Re: Lion Dung > > In Alaska the bears are at the top of the food chain. That means > they will eat anything that they feel like eating including lions, > (which there are none) WOW! The bears ate ALL of them!?? /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:29:01 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Logs are now up-to-date MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I just managed to drag the many log files from the LISTSERV and FTP them to Adam. They should all be shortly at Sunsite. ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/bee-l This site is accessible with a web brouser and makes brousing them simpler than requesting them one by one from the LISTSERV by email. I usually have pointers to them on one of my pages, but they are currently hopelessly out-of-date. I will be fixing this soon, but in the meantime, just use the above URL... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 11:30:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "George W.D. Fielder" Subject: Re: QUEEN INCUBATOR BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU +++ A comment on the thread of Queen Incubators. I use a Koolatron (brand name for an automatic food cooler). It is available for around $150 Canadian. It is made to keep food either hot or cold, plugs into a car's cigarette lighter or a.c. with an adapter. The better models have a built-in thermostat so is quite convenient especially for transporting queen cells. However you must calibrate the thermostat but once set usually performs well for me. I insert a thermometer through a small hole drilled in the insulated lid to calibrate and leave it there since I like to monitor it from time to time Like someone mentioned water in a pan inside is a good idea. I prefer to use a wet towel since it does not slop around while traveling. Use warm water. ....... george ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:49:55 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: WBC, extractors etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler wrote: > > >How are parallel radials when it comes to comb size, speed of extraction, > >or ease of use? Maxant lists a number of models. thanks, jwg > > Hi Joel: > > Pardon my ignorance, but what is a parallel radial? I can't visualize it, > because the two words seem contradictory. Could we get a short description. > Hi Stan and Joel, I have pictures of parallel extractors on my homepage. It's a radial with horizontal shaft. I have been using it for two years now, and it really is fast and efficient. With chain feeding from uncapper, and auto loading into extractor this system saves a lot of handling of frames. 150 boxes a day, one man operating, and you don't get tired ;-) One thing about radials; they have to be wide, mine is 1100 mm in diameter, to work with deep frames. I have earlier used a Maxant, and it only worked efficiently with shallow or medium frames. ________________________________________________________________________________ | | | Joel Govostes; I have been trying to mail you privately, but it bounces back. | |________________________________________________________________________________| -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:49:13 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Starting combs in TB and OTHER hives On Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:52:49 -0400, Eunice D. Wonnacott wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Poster: >"Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: Starting combs in TB >and OTHER hives >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >You make me wonder if it would be possible to produce a nylon, or other fabric, >material patterned like foundation, and used in its place in the frames?> >> I have been dreaming about someting like this for a long time. Maybe some kind of nylon (or so) net simillar to that in tenis racket (need not be so firm) would be acceptable for bees to build combs on it... Any other dreams? Vladimir (ptacek@sci.muni.cz) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Fac. Sci., Dept. Anim. Physiol. E.mail: ptacek@sci.muni.cz Masaryk University phone: .42/5/41129 562 611 37 Brno, Czech Republic fax: .42/5/41211 214 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:08:52 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Laying HIves Down & Self requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > The self requeening takes 21 days on average. Introduced cells take > about 11 days to start laying (but may need 20). Mated queens start > as soon as they can get out of the cage (depends on intro method). > The latter two methods permit some stock improvement and selection. > I have been trying Carniolans this year, to see what difference there is to the Buckfasts I have used many years. One difference I could immediately see is that Carniolan queens fly out to mate earlier than Buckfast and Italian. Didn't check it out exactly, but got a feeling that it's 3-5 days difference. We had excellent weather during that period of summer, so it can't depend on that Carniolans fly in colder temp. My experience with Buckfast/Italian is they need around 14 days from cell hatches until laying here at lat 60 in Sweden. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:08:09 -0800 Reply-To: "alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Albert W Needham <"alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net> Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel Govostes wrote: > > >Dave from Scranton wrote: > >>Finally after 3 summers and one bear, I got my first crop of 23 > >pounds. It's in my kitchen in a 5 pound bucket that I got from the local > >donut shop for $1.00.< > > > >Prithee tell: Joel: I have always kept my eye open for these pails. Did accumulate a number of them for hauling nut coal in to the house from the garage. Have picked them up here and there-town dump-local store, etc. What can be a good source for them are job sites where they are doing dry-wall work and plastering up the seams. Maybe getting to know some local dry-wall type might be a good source. Maybe some others have some good ideas on getting these pails. It doesn't seem to me you should have to pay for them. Twas just ragging you on the bucket weight :-) Regards, Al -- Al Needham * Scituate,MA,USA * Alwine@concentric.net >"The HoneyBee" -All about Honey Bees-Nice Photos!< Download from: Http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:29:28 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul van Westendorp of AGF 576-5600 Fax: 576-5652" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 12 Nov 1996 to 13 Nov 1996 In-Reply-To: <01IBT7KR50R6B0CK9U@saturn.gov.bc.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re. Top Bar Hives (TBH) I have been following the discussion on Top Bar Hives with interest because in the 1980's I was involved in a beekeeping project in Uganda where we produced and distributed these hives to all parts of the country (ie. where it was safe enough). We called them Kenyan Topbar Hives or KTB's). In the discussion, interested beekeepers ought to remember that the production from these type of colonies are incomparable to our conventional Langstroth hives for several reasons. 1. The TBH's require quite a bit of wood compared to the amount of comb area. This may not be of serious consequence in north America where some may dabble with these hives for pure interest, but in Africa this was proving to be a serious flaw. Much of the continent suffers from serious erosion and deforestation, while at the same time durable woods were required for the fabrication of these TBH's. As an alternative, we attempted to introduce a TBH coprised of a sturdy wooden frame on which the topbars would rest, while the remainder of the hive body (ie. the sloping sides and bottom) were made of a woven material. I don't think the bees had any difficulties with this new type of 'environmentally friendly' housing, but the logistics to implement it proved enormous). 2. The nature of the TBH design limits the ability for a colony to expand. It is true that the brood comb is predominantly in the front and honey stores in the back, but it is surely not nicely seperated as we can accomplish with the Langstroth. Although, we did use an vertical Q-excluder which often resulted in swarming. With or without excluder, the physical limitations means the bees will swarm unless you cut them back frequently by early harvesting and transferring topbars to other TBHs. 3. Harvesting is pretty 'wasteful' by having to cut comb most of which contains bee brood and pollen. In Africa that's fine because it is the only way for beekeepers to have their hives populated (with the 2 colonies in my Kampala backyard, it took 5 days for one and less than 3 weeks for the other to receive swarms). For anyone trying, I suggest that the topbars have a narrow ridge running along its length at the bottom which is dipped in wax. Bees are strongly encouraged to build their comb the way you want them. I have seen some fabulous architectural designs by bees who decided to ignore the topbars provided to them! Paul van Westendorp pvanwesten@galaxy.gov.bc.ca Provincial Apiarist British Columbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:30:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails Comments: To: "alwine@concentric.net"@concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, I figured he meant 5-gal, not 5-lb. Or else he packed it with an awful lot of pressure(!) : ) You mentioned the spackling/dry wall compound buckets. I would wonder if the material is food-approved, or if the compounds might contaminate the honey, even if the buckets were scoured clean. I wonder if you could even get them clean. Any BEE-Liners have information to offer on this? Could this be a good source for bulk containers? Many years ago I got 5-gal pickle buckets from a caterer. I used them, and certainly they were safe, but could never get the dill-pickle smell out! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:28:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails REGARDING RE> 5 gallon pails Al Needham wrote: >Have picked them up here and there-town dump-local store, etc. What can be a good source for them are job sites where they are doing dry-wall work and plastering up the seams. Maybe getting to know some local dry-wall type might be a good source. Maybe some others have some good ideas on getting these pails. It doesn't seem to me you should have to pay for them.< The price for new pails is around US$4.00 apiece, which is a considerable outlay of money if you need a lot of them. However, if you sell to individuals or to grocery stores in bulk new pails might be required. And it sometimes is difficult to sell if the price is increased enough to cover these container costs. When selling to a packer, there is no problem with used pails. I do it all the time, exchanging pails for whatever they have on hand. In obtaining used pails in the first place, though, I think it is important to get pails that have been used for food products, and non-odorous food products at that. I wouldn't use drywall mud pails, even though they are the easiest for me to obtain. I have gotten pails that had garlic and pickles in them, and the odor stays in the plastic. I won't use them, except to sell back to the hot sauce manufacturer who traded them to me in the first place. Another thing to avoid, in my opinion, are pails used for medication such as Terrapatties, etc. One never knows how much of that stays in the plastic only to be slowly released into one's good honey. By the way - one of my pet peeves regarding used containers is that there are a variety of manufacturers and the (specific) sizes are not standardized. That means that covers must be of the same brand as the pail in order to be sure that they fit. It is frustrating to fill up a 5 gallon pail, then be unable to find a corresponding cover to fit it! Also, the empties must be stacked by brand, or one might not get them apart again because of different side slopes! I have had to throw out so many perfectly good used containers because of this. Am I alone? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:29:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: Fighting Beekeeping Ordinances Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:06 PM 11/11/96 -0500, you wrote: >The city of Pompano Beach Florida has an ordinance against a whole >host of agricultural uses, including beehives. Mr. Michael >Rudunick of that city wishes to change the law from no beehives to >a few. Seems the city fathers are tradtionalists in the urban >scene and not amenable to change. What tactics can Mr. Rudunick >used to convince the city council to amend the ordinance? > >There used to be little evidence one could point to of the >usefulness of honey bee activity. Now that the word is out that >bees are scarce and as a consequence, home gardeners are berefit of >pollinating activities, perhaps this will add to Mr. Rudunick's >case. I know Murray Loring wrote an update of his book, Bees and >the Law some time back, but I don't have a copy. > >I sent Mr. Rudunick a copy of my fact sheet on good neighbor >guidelines and ordinances. It has a model ordinance which might be >of use, but he needs more ammunition. > >Tom Sanford > > Some local lobbying--letter writing or phone calls--is sure to influence the actions of elected officials. Is there a local garden club? Horticulturists association? A home orchard club? Federal, state or private consulting ecologists and botanists? Neighborhood associations? Do local school kids eat Honey Nut Cherios? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:14:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "George W.D. Fielder" Subject: Bee Venom Therapy BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU +++ Hi Allen, Kelley, Fran and all Sorry that I have been 'unplugged' for a few days but I am glad to see the interest and good references already provided to this thread. Being no expert in this I have little of significance to add. However I will mention a few things: Allen - I have worked with two folks with MS. Both claimed they got improvement albeit lasting for only a few days which is in keeping with my layman's view of the mechanism. Both have now discontinued one because he qualified for using the new experimental drug which luckily was paid for by his health insurance. The other gets stings only sporadically, I think because he does not like the initial pain and will not try an ice cube on the area that seems to reduce that initial and worst pain. The ice cube is applied for a few minutes before the bee sting is applied. Kelley It would take so many pages to try to explain all I've met up in this. However if you can do a net search you should find hundreds and hundreds of references. However I will gladly respond to any of your or anybody else's questions. Fran I know nothing about ALS or L.G. disease. However from what you say it being degeneration of muscles, then stings at the acupuncture points involved might help I think. An acupuncturist can locate these points for you. Ours even marked the patient with 'indelible' ink to help me find the spots. I did learn the ones I needed but it is a continuing process with theories of application of stings varying between repetitive and progressive approaches. As I see it Bee Venom Therapy encompasses both the injection of prepared standard doses of the venom (or an extract) as well as directly stinging with live bees which locally is being called Apitherapy. Yes there is a local Toronto, Ontario chapter (or associate) of the American Apitherapy Society. The prepared and injected venom has the advantage of being of standard strength and treatment is generally 'systemic' (whole body) in nature whereas the stings are for localized treatment with only a small whole body effect. I have found that the bees differ quite a lot in amount or strength of venom so treatments have this variable as well. The Dr. I mentioned had training in Chinese as well as western medicine and used both. Which makes me wonder if any of our Chinese friends have any experience in BVT or Apitherapy. I am sure they are quite familiar with acupuncture. I hope they will add what they know. Perhaps Pure Jane has some knowledge or can ask around there. All for now ........... george ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:57:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "George W.D. Fielder" Subject: Re: Making Wax Foundation BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU +++ Barry you wrote > There is a book published here in the states called >"Keeping Bees" >in which it gives you a step-by-step process for making the press. This would >be another >alternative. I can give you more information if you want. I sure would appreciate this information on making a wax foundation press! If it is very lengthy you can send to me directly- email or snail mail. Unfortunately I deleted the original else I would have mailed you directly in case not enough interest was generated to mail to all. Thanks george.fielder@hydro.on.ca OR Suite 201 90 Earlton Rd Agincourt, Ontario Canada M1T 2R6 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:03:34 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Ted Fischer wrote: > REGARDING RE>Pitiful Sight Update > > Allen Dick wrote: > >I also gather the original poster in this thread did not actually > monitor his results until he noticed that the hives had died or > dwindled and that varroa were everywhere on the remaining bees. By > then it was too late. > > And... since the amount of fall feed was only 5 quarts per hive -- > if I recall, I would disagree with Andy and say that the syrup > should not have been the cause of collapse. It seems to have been > the failure of the mite treatment.< > > I agree with Allen's comments. Upon rereading the whole thread, it does > certainly seem to me that the bees died of a typical varroa infestation. The > condition of the hives - lots of stored honey and no bees or virtually none - is > identical to what I experienced a year ago when my Apistan strips didn't get on > the colonies until mid to late September. I doubt that the amount of feeding > had anything to do with the bee demise, nor were they poisoned by the essential > oils. Other workers haven't reported such results that would indicate > poisoning. On the other hand, observations on the remaining hives indicate that > great numbers of varroa were still present. > > So now the question is why didn't the treatment protect the bees from varroa? > Some argue that it is because all treatment methods were not used. I wonder if > it may not be rather that the treatment was applied to late, after varroa got > the upper hand. That is what happened to many of us last year with Apistan. If > varroa kills not directly but by acting as a vector for virus (or bacterial) > disease, perhaps the damage was already done before the treatment was applied. > Hello , I would put my money on a virus. I have seen it first hand and about the time you think everything is normal and the mites are gone , the hive goes down very fast.We do have researchers working on the problem. Two places in the US and one that I know about in the UK. Tellie Welsh is working on antiseriums up in Onterio Canada.This is not a shallow problem. We do have to control Varroa to slow done the spred of viruses.There maybe more ways that they are spreding besides Varroa. In the US we have DR. Hung of the USDA at the BRL working on field identification of honey bee viruses. This is no easy job. You know what we humans go thru to find out what virus we have , Dr Hung is doing us a great favor. We would be able to have the answer to the main question in a short time. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:24:18 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: Making Wax Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George W.D. Fielder wrote: > > BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > +++ > > Barry > you wrote > > There is a book published here in the states called > >"Keeping Bees" > >in which it gives you a step-by-step process for making the press. This > would > >be another > >alternative. I can give you more information if you want. > > I sure would appreciate this information on making a wax foundation press! > If it is very lengthy you can send to me directly- email or snail mail. > Unfortunately I deleted the original else I would have mailed you directly > in case not enough interest was generated to mail to all. George - The books author is John Vivian and is published by Williamson Publishing in Charlotte, Vermont. They have a toll free number: 1-800-234-8791. The ISBN number is 0-913589-19-5. The book costs $10.95. The press looks simple and very easy to make. I have not made one yet but plan to during the long cold winter months. It looks to me like you could take the basic design and improve on it if you wanted to. Definitely not the fast way of getting foundation but for the small guy who wants to use his/her own wax, it foots the bill. Mail me directly if you need more info. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:39:13 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It is annoying to go to cover a full pail and realize the lid is the wrong size! I have mostly 45-lb pails, a bit shorter than the 60's. They are mainly from bakers and doughnut shops, and contained fruit or pudding pastry-filling. The few 60's (5-gal) pails I have were received from honey packers or other beekeepers. I like the either the 45 or 60 lb size. Ideally I'd have all 60's. The smaller ones will hold 50 lbs. if filled to the top, usually. Then you can sell it as a 50-lb unit. There are two different shapes of the doughnut filling pails that I have, which can be frustrating. You have to separate them before you stack the empties, or they will get stuck. One design is more or less like a 5-gal pail. in diameter, whereas the other style is broader and shorter. The lids are quite different in design and seal. I tried to stick with only one style pail, but after lending pails or having extracting done elsewhere, or selling to small-scale packers, inevitably things got mixed up and I lost standardization. Oh well. Now I'm just glad if I have enough pails, period. Four bucks apiece for new ones is pretty steep -- maybe theres a good discount if you buy a large number. Anybody know of a good source that is more reasonable? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Making Wax Foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The methods such as described by John Vivian normally produce a thick sheet of foundation, thicker than the manufactured sheets. Full sheets require a considerable amount of wax. Perhaps there is a preferred method. Considering the work involved, though, it might be better to have the wax traded for foundation or worked into foundation by a mill. By the way, comb honey from a top-bar hive or other "natural" comb hive is often of superior quality because the midrib in natural comb is very thin and the cells fine compared to comb built on foundation. The comb honey is less "waxy" to the customer. A possible drawback is that the surplus combs are usually drone cells, and don't have quite the even surface patterns in the cappings that worker-cell comb honey does. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:46:19 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Pitiful Sight Update WARNING WARNING WARNING] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3D1816524C8A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3D1816524C8A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Taken from sci.agriculture.beekeeping. --------------------------------------------- --------------3D1816524C8A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Path: interaccess!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!philabs!blanket.mitre.org!news.ma thworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: KEN LAWRENCE Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update WARNING WARNING WARNING Date: 14 Nov 1996 15:11:35 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 6 Message-ID: <56fcr7$sq7@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <560ekg$rr3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <56drrr$ml5@herald.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.146.208.254 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22ATT (Windows; U; 16bit) I assure you all this is no fraud. I have lost 28 hives and I thought I had done the oils by the book. I have been out of pocket as the wife has had surgery. My address is beeman52@worldnet.att.net Ken Lawrence --------------3D1816524C8A-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:02:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Pitiful Sight Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Hello , I would put my money on a virus. I have seen it first hand > about the time you think everything is normal and the mites are gone > , the hive goes down very fast. This strikes me as a potential area for bees resistant to specific viruses to develop fairly quickly. This combined with increased resistance to varroa and acarine may reduce, if not eliminate the losses we are now seeing. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:23:18 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Smoker Fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, All, I have been out of pocket for quite some time and was shocked at how many e-mail messages I had, when I finally retrieved them (543! Yikes!). I saw several posts on the subject of smoker fuels. On November 7-9, the Texas Beekeeping Association had their annual convention, this year in Houston. On Friday, Dr. Frank Eischen, of the USDA in Weslaco, Texas, delivered a talk on "Natural Chemicals for the Control of Varroa". Much of what he shared was news that we have discussed here on the BEE-L. He, of course, talked about the use of the chemicals that we are already familiar with, as well as essential oils. They have seen moderate to good results with the essential oils, which jives with the reports we have encountered on the LIST. However, he touched on an aspect of delivery that sounds very promising and was exciting to me. Now I know there have been reports, recently, as to the negative effects of smoking your bees, but that's what I want to talk about. They have been experimenting with the use of various plant materials in the smoker. I can't remember how many different plants they have tried, but some that they were most interested in were citrus, Melaleuca, Tansy, Cedar, and I can't remember the rest of the list. There were about three other items on the list. Some of these materials, that were tried, achieved between 80% - 90% knockdown of the mite. One important factor that they took into account was the smoke's effect on the bees. There were four factors that they looked at, (1) The material does a good job of knocking down the mite population, (2) The material does not do a good job of knocking down the mite population, (3) The material makes the bees sick, (4) The material does not make the bees sick. Obviously, the best combination is a material that does a good job of knocking down the mite population without making the bees sick. And so another obvious conclusion follows, that they found that these materials varied in their combination of these traits. They are still in the process of trying these different materials and they are getting new materials, from beekeepers, on a regular basis, that they will also try. So far, the study has yielded that citrus leaves (specifically grapefruit) do the best job of knocking down the mites (in the 80-90% range) with little or no side-affects for the bees. Cedar bark and needles seemed to work fairly well also. I believe, to date, they still have yet to try the Tansy. The data that I saw looked pretty promising. I hope to see more forthcoming, on this subject, from Dr. Eischen. If anyone wants more detailed information about this, I'll see what I can do about getting it. Regards, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 19:20:10 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 09:40 PM 12/11/96 -0900, you wrote: > >>> Still I'm not sure of all the specs. >>> What makes these hives so great? > >> They are a low tech alternative to the Langstroth. > >Some historical background may help people understand where a TBH fits. I saw a variation of TBH in central Asian beekeeping (Tajikistan and Uzbeckaitan). Another modernization if you will. Basically, they were using box hives of various dimensions without supers. The boxes were long and accomodated frames. Expansion was horizonal with brood near the entrance and honey in the farther frames. When the colony was small and not needing much space they removed unused frams and tucked the bees in with an insolating cushion. As the colony expanded, they moved the cushion out of the way and added frames. Generally it appeared an evolutionary step between the TBHs and Langstroth hives. While I found it interesting and saw that it worked in their setting, I observed that they had now way to transport frames of honey to central extraction facilities. I wonder how you do that with THBs also? Ed ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 19:20:15 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Levi Subject: Re: Honey roasted peanuts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >EL>I've got a friend who asked me to look for directions on making > >honey-roasted peanuts. Anyone out there who's had any success at this? > >I found this one and it looks good. Please send sample! Thanks Andy, Ed PS: what's an imker? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:58:41 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> What makes these hives so great? >>> They are a low tech alternative to the Langstroth. >... it appeared an evolutionary step between the TBHs and Langstroth >hives. >... had no way to transport frames of honey to central extraction facilities > I wonder how you do that with THBs also? When Atholl Desmond explained how the African peasant used these hives, he said these beekeepers could not afford "processing" as most of us understand the term. Transporting hives and centralized processing is not an issue for these beekeepers. (too expensive). They do it all in or close too their permanent apiary. The can't spin the honey comb (can't afford an extractor) so they crush if instead. Imagine what it must be like to keep bees from their perspective. If you don't have the funds for any thing "sophisticated", you just don't attempt to do it. Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:50:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Apple Production ---------------------------------------- >So apple production reports don't show a big drop over last year. I'm not too >surprised. I'm sure most of the apples being counted are from large producer who >are in a position to see to it that the apples are pollinated, by renting bees. >Rents may go up, but they will do what they have to do. Hello Kevin, Yes, they are the apples that go into commerce, you can be sure they were not all from big farms and many were produced without benefit of renting bees. Some here should have been washed better before being pressed into natural apple juice, that naturally made some people deathly sick and are causing sales of all apple products to take a dive with a new apple slogan "An Apple Today Can Flush Your Life Away". Could not be at a more sensitive time as apple juice is a natural during the holiday season. Looks excellent for pure Cranberry juice and Squash pies this year... I am not as sure as some are that pollination rents drive bee numbers. It would seem that with fair pollination rents and good honey prices that we are experiencing today there would be much more activity by beekeepers dramatically increasing their numbers. Maybe there will be, but it is not or has not happened yet as far as I can find out talking with the equipment suppliers which have been going down hill here for years. To confuse the bee pollination picture today here in California that depends on a thousand truck loads from out of state beekeepers there are reports that many are not coming back this next spring or are reducing the numbers they intend to bring and are instead heading south for greener pastures and lower production costs. I also suspect that most experienced beekeepers recognize that we may have reached the limits of good seasonal bee pasturage needed for our bees when they are not pollinating and are not going to increase that much. >The back yard trees may be a very different story. We have spent the summer >looking to buy property a bit more "out in the country" than we are >now. In every case, where there were apple trees there were >essentially no apples. I often asked about the lack of apples. The >usual response was that there had been a freeze. Well, I had the same >weather they had and I have apples, and of course, bees. I know this >is purely anecdotal, but I saw it at least half a dozen times. If honeybees were the only pollinator of the casual apple orchard or apple tree it would be easier to say the apples failed because of the lack of honeybees, but I am told that there are many other pollinators such as the Blue Orchard bee that are as good or better doing it to the apple flowers then honeybees, so they say. >To be fair, I should mention that I started keeping bees 5 years ago because n >bees visited my apple trees and I got very few apples. This may not be a new >situation Now you are on track, but I am not saying that crops are not suffering because of the lack of bee populations, as the facts are there to see, apple production is down in most of the apple producing states, and for those who got no apples it is a disaster, same as the beekeeper who for what ever reason has lost his bees in spite of the good care he gave them. What I am saying is that in spite of all the hype we give to our problems some are prospering to spite us all and we need to spend more time studying what they may be doing that is different then what we have done and not join the Flat Earth Society because a few fell out of the old apple tree. ttul Andy- Los Banos, Ca (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... Nor will a bee buzz round two swelling peaches, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ... >While I found it interesting and saw that it worked in their setting, I >observed that they had now way to transport frames of honey to central >extraction facilities. I wonder how you do that with THBs also? > >Ed With "transitional" or top-bar hives, you would transfer the crop into a container right in the yard. The honey-combs are cut free from the top bars and dropped into a covered pail or other receptacle. You can leave about 1/4" of comb on the top bar, to serve as a guide for the comb to be rebuilt. The bees will set right to work on the remnant of the comb, cleaning up the dripping honey and clustering to re-build the comb. The tbh idea has roots in the ancient methods of Greek beekeeping. There they have traditionally used tall woven (like wicker) baskets for the hives. They lay bars across the basket for comb suspension. Over all they use clay and a straw covering (hackles). The combs - unlike those in simple box-hives - are removable by removing the bars. The slight taper to the baskets is supposedly why the combs are not attached to the sides. Evidently somewhere along the line somebody learned that if the bars were a certain distance apart, the bees would build one single comb on each. The honey-combs could be removed for consumption, and also colonies could be divided by transferring half the bars/combs to a new basket, where they could raise a queen if they didn't have one. A guy named Wheeler described these hives in the 17th (or 18th ?) century after a visit to Greece. Bar hives were in use in North America, but the combs were usually fastened to the hive walls and needed to be cut out. It seems that use of removable bars with removable combs didn't get much attention in North America. Langstroth discovered the bee space an=8F the frame idea, and that was a hit. The drawback to the slightly tapered, basket-type Greek sort of hive is that the top is round, so the combs near the edges are alot smaller than the ones in the center. So - interchangeability of combs is not really ideal. With the long, top-bar hive, all combs are the same width and so are more or less interchangeable. Eva Crane's recent books (including Bees & Beekeeping and The Archaeology of Beekeeping) have an interesting overview of the development of transitional hives from Wheeler's description up to the Kenya design. Incidentally, the Kenya top bar hive plan calls for inward sloping walls, supposedly to discourage comb attachment to the hive sides. Clauss, in Tanzania (1983) and others (including our James Satterfield) have found that even with straight vertical sides, there is little comb attachment. At least not enough to go through the trouble of cutting the sides to slope. Might as well let them build a bigger comb that corresponds to a square or rectangular hive shape than decreasing the hive volume by having sloping sides. It has been claimed by a number of experienced users that there is no less attachment in the vertical-sided box (Tanzanian tbh) than in the sloping sided box (Kenya tbh). This being the case, it makes construction of the hive even simpler. If the hive is too narrow perhaps the bees would be more apt to connect to the sides than if the hive is on the wide side, say the width of a Langstroth-sized comb. The catenary hive I used had pretty much vertical sides toward the top, the curve shape starting down below a-ways. There was virtually no comb attachment to the sides, even though the hive was small. Clauss in the BEEKEEPING HANDBOOK (Tanzania) shows some great photos of the locals holding up big rectangular combs, still attached to the top bars, fat and heavy with capped honey. Maybe someone else here has been able to compare sloping vs. vertical sided tbh's(?). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:25:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Re: Lion Dung...Bears....long lasting effects of smoke.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bee-Listers: Indulge me. I believe I have given birth to a compound concept which will solve multiple problems! I submit for your consideration: Lion dung scares bears. (except Alaskan Brown Bears!) House cats are distant cousins to lions Dung (assorted varities) and wood shavings produce a cool dense smoke. SSSSOOOOOOO....... If I use the box of wood shavings that I have accumulated from my jointer, which my 3 house cats (very ferocious house cats to be sure!) have crapped in repeatedly, then I will have an excellent smoker fuel that will produce volumes of cool dense smoke; the stench of which will drive any self-respecting Vermont Black Bearmiles from my apiary (they're nothing more than big babies anyway....I know: I chased one this past spring!) . EXCELLENT!!!!!!! I amaze myself...it must be the Honey Nut Cheerios! Hey Andy: I have seen a new product from Kellogg.... Honey & Nut Corn Flakes! Better stock up! Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:28:44 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Comments: To: Ed Levi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Ed Levi wrote: > The boxes were long and accomodated frames. Expansion was horizonal with > brood near the entrance and honey in the farther frames. When the colony > was small and not needing much space they removed unused frams and tucked > the bees in with an insolating cushion. As the colony expanded, they moved the > cushion out of the way and added frames. > > Generally it appeared an evolutionary step between the TBHs and Langstroth > hives. > > While I found it interesting and saw that it worked in their setting, I > observed that they had now way to transport frames of honey to central > extraction facilities. I wonder how you do that with THBs also? Ed, this was an interesting report. Thank you. From my personal use, I have no problem with "extraction"...I just load the comb into a nylon mesh laundry bag, suspend it between the plates of my press, crank it up, and watch the honey flow. I rinse the bag out in water which I use to make honey pop, then put the wax in the solar melter. I've read of comb being put in bags, mashed a little, then hung to drain in warm place. To winterize my hive, I put a division board in to wall off unoccupied areas with no honey stores, or I just drape a sheet of newspaper inside. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:04:20 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harlan Atfield was a Peace Corps Volunteer in Nigeria. He said that many beekeepers there kept their bees in clay pots one inverted on top of the other. To harvest honey they took off the top pot and heated it on afire until thewax melted and came to the top. When it cooled the wax was removed and you were left with a pot of honey. When I was in Ethiopia I saw the harves several places. In one the Hive was a woven tube about one foot in diameter and 4 feet long. The harvesting was done after dark and the comb was dug out and put into pots. Water was then added the wort was mixed thoroughly and the whole mess fermented. The wax was then skimmed off and the rest was bottled as Tej or mead. One feature of "farmers mead" in Ethiopia is the larva floating on top. It is recommended to have a large soup-strainer mustache to filter it out. The delicacy for the beekeepers was to pull out a brood comb and eat it savoring the larva and spitting out the wax. The bees were brushed into a fire to reduce as much as possible the threat of bee stings. I guess the point is that hauling supers to a central point for extracing the honey was not of concern to them. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 22:50:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Food flavourings can really be obnoxious things to try and get out of plastic. The smaller pails from bakeries with pie fillings, etc. are hard to clean but certainly not impossible. TIME is as important as elbow grease. If the bakery steams them out before they store them, and then you soak them in cleaner of your choice for a good time and then leave them air for a good time and finally clean them again just before filling, I don't find any residual odor. We have a large supply of good quality five gallon pails used here for beverage flavouring at the local pop plant. It takes a good year of use for other purposes (feeding grain, or milk replacer, etc.) before you can scour them and really get rid of the last traces of that flavouring. By that time they may have picked up some other strong odors :) But one of the easiest five gallon pails to clean is the one used by the fast food restaurants for their frying oil concoction. It has practically no odour, and it cleans off easily with detergent and water. The disadvantage is the lid. The pail is of the same type as those used by petroleum products companies and has a spout and locks that you must cut and an o ring seal. Not nearly as nice as a snap lid. But if you cut the locks carefully, and don't cut the o ring, the lids will keep the honey airtight. You have to take the o ring out to clean the lid well. There is something to be said for new buckets. At present honey prices, $4.00 is only about 6 percent of the value. With small packages the containers can be 25% sometimes. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:27:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Tracheal mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I read once that tracheal mite eggs have been found outside the trachea, at the base of the bees wings. Does anyone know if their eggs can hatch outside the trachea or if any other functions have been observed? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:38:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: QUEEN INCUBATOR PLANS as anyone got plans for manufacturing a 30 queen incubator I have a few ideas. I am looking for a thermostat at the moment and have been considering reptile breeding tanks etc. Ken Black Bay Tree Cottage 76 East St, Fritwell '\ /` Bicester, ()() Oxfordshire, England. OX6 9QF \/ 00441869345725 Fax:00441869256678 email: kblack.lisa.mod@gtnet.gov.uk A standard foam chicken Incubator will work just find. Look in you poultry supply houses. Dean Breaux Hybri-Bees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:44:21 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Honey as a wound dressing >On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Aaron Morris wrote: > >> I'm looking for references to honey as a wound dressing. It was a >common >> wound dressing in the US Civil War, but has been usurped by modern >> medicine. ... > How about an anecdote? Last sunday, I stabbed myself in the left palm with a screwdriver while installing an outdoor light fixture. Judging by the red on the floor and the words in the air, it was a pretty good one. (The wife said sompin about tryin to be like Jesus...) I took the old honeybear and squirted a handful. I repeated that once daily. Today, (thursday,) the flesh is fresh and pink there. It healed FAST! FWIW... Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:44:21 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:23:18 -0600 "Michael L. Wallace" writes: >Hi, All, > >I have been out of pocket for quite some time and was shocked at how >many >e-mail messages I had, when I finally retrieved them (543! Yikes!). Mike, I think you can "turn off" message delivery without unsubscribing, or you can go to a "digest" format (one big message per day) with a "Set Bee-L digest" message to the ListServ address. > >On November 7-9, the Texas Beekeeping Association had their annual >convention, this year in Houston. On Friday, Dr. Frank Eischen, of >the USDA in Weslaco, Texas, delivered a talk on "Natural Chemicals for the >Control of Varroa". Much of what he shared was news that we have discussed here >on the Bee-L. >... > They have been experimenting with the use of various plant materials in the smoker. >I can't remember how many different plants they have tried, but some that they >were most interested in were citrus, Melaleuca, Tansy, Cedar, and I can't >remember the rest of the list. There were about three other items on the list. >... >Some of these materials, that were tried, achieved between 80% - 90% >knockdown of the mite. One important factor that they took into >account was the smoke's effect on the bees... > >The data that I saw looked pretty promising. I >hope to see more forthcoming, on this subject, from Dr. Eischen. > >If anyone wants more detailed information about this, I'll see what I >can do about getting it. > Yes, it sounds like the mite situation is finally getting to the point where people are really doing research into answers. It sounds so much more refreshing than to just hear people complaining about the cost of Apistan. Keep us informed! Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:49:41 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: jchamberlin Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I had the occassion to experiment with a number of TBH designs as a Peace= =20 Corps Volunteer in Paraguay. In my experience, there was no discernable=20 difference in the amount of comb attatchment to hive walls that were=20 vertical vs. slightly sloping vs 60 degree slope. =20 On a different subject: are there any other former Peace Corps beekeepers= =20 out there? Peace, Jordan C On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Joel Govostes wrote: > ... > >While I found it interesting and saw that it worked in their setting, I > >observed that they had now way to transport frames of honey to central > >extraction facilities. I wonder how you do that with THBs also? > > > >Ed >=20 > With "transitional" or top-bar hives, you would transfer the crop into a > container right in the yard. The honey-combs are cut free from the top > bars and dropped into a covered pail or other receptacle. You can leave > about 1/4" of comb on the top bar, to serve as a guide for the comb to be > rebuilt. The bees will set right to work on the remnant of the comb, > cleaning up the dripping honey and clustering to re-build the comb. >=20 > The tbh idea has roots in the ancient methods of Greek beekeeping. There > they have traditionally used tall woven (like wicker) baskets for the > hives. They lay bars across the basket for comb suspension. Over all th= ey > use clay and a straw covering (hackles). >=20 > The combs - unlike those in simple box-hives - are removable by removing > the bars. The slight taper to the baskets is supposedly why the combs ar= e > not attached to the sides. Evidently somewhere along the line somebody > learned that if the bars were a certain distance apart, the bees would > build one single comb on each. The honey-combs could be removed for > consumption, and also colonies could be divided by transferring half the > bars/combs to a new basket, where they could raise a queen if they didn't > have one. A guy named Wheeler described these hives in the 17th (or 18th > ?) century after a visit to Greece. Bar hives were in use in North > America, but the combs were usually fastened to the hive walls and needed > to be cut out. It seems that use of removable bars with removable combs > didn't get much attention in North America. Langstroth discovered the be= e > space an=8F the frame idea, and that was a hit. >=20 > The drawback to the slightly tapered, basket-type Greek sort of hive is > that the top is round, so the combs near the edges are alot smaller than > the ones in the center. So - interchangeability of combs is not really > ideal. With the long, top-bar hive, all combs are the same width and so > are more or less interchangeable. >=20 > Eva Crane's recent books (including Bees & Beekeeping and The Archaeology > of Beekeeping) have an interesting overview of the development of > transitional hives from Wheeler's description up to the Kenya design. >=20 > Incidentally, the Kenya top bar hive plan calls for inward sloping walls, > supposedly to discourage comb attachment to the hive sides. Clauss, in > Tanzania (1983) and others (including our James Satterfield) have found > that even with straight vertical sides, there is little comb attachment. = At > least not enough to go through the trouble of cutting the sides to slope. > Might as well let them build a bigger comb that corresponds to a square o= r > rectangular hive shape than decreasing the hive volume by having sloping > sides. >=20 > It has been claimed by a number of experienced users that there is no les= s > attachment in the vertical-sided box (Tanzanian tbh) than in the sloping > sided box (Kenya tbh). This being the case, it makes construction of the > hive even simpler. If the hive is too narrow perhaps the bees would be > more apt to connect to the sides than if the hive is on the wide side, sa= y > the width of a Langstroth-sized comb. The catenary hive I used had prett= y > much vertical sides toward the top, the curve shape starting down below > a-ways. There was virtually no comb attachment to the sides, even though > the hive was small. >=20 > Clauss in the BEEKEEPING HANDBOOK (Tanzania) shows some great photos of t= he > locals holding up big rectangular combs, still attached to the top bars, > fat and heavy with capped honey. >=20 > Maybe someone else here has been able to compare sloping vs. vertical sid= ed > tbh's(?). >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:43:41 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > The singles are often overwintered over a strong hive.(Even a single >medium can survive the winter here like that). They generally survive the >winter and do good the next year but they are not always of sufficient >strength in late spring to rent out for blueberry pollination. > >Regards Stan Would someone please explain in detail the process of putting two hives "together" for the winter without actually combining them? I know this is old hat for many on this list, but there are others like myself who just don't know the exact details and don't want to find out the hard way. Thanks, Rick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:27:36 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: BEE-L: Caveat Emptor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Would someone please explain in detail the process of putting two > hives "together" for the winter without actually combining them? I > know this is old hat for many on this list, but there are others > like myself who just don't know the exact details and don't want to > find out the hard way. Once again, we are looking at an answer that depends very much on the region of the world where you live. BEE-L is a *world* list. What works for Stan in Eastern Canada is a prescription for certain colony death here in Alberta, Canada. Unless people specify exactly where they are keeping their bees, the answers are likely to be of curiosity value only. The best answers for many of these questions is to be found your *local* beekeeping club or -- even better -- your neighbouring long-time commercial beekeeper. I know my father advised me to find out what successful commercials *in my area* were doing, and do the same. Of course I ignored his advice, being young and foolish (now I'm old and foolish:), and I paid for the lesson. So did my bees. Over and over. Having said that, BEE-L is very useful for discussing and comparing ideas, but *uncritical* use of ideas and opinions obtained on the net is simply a formula for personal beekeeping disaster. (The results are now starting to come in). Even if you understand what is actually being described, there is always much more that is not said. You might get the impression here that you are corresponding with some real experts. *Maybe* you are, but... Beekeeping is a pretty subtle business, and to know whether you are receiving advice from an inspired guru (if there really is such a thing) or a deluded windbag is next to impossible if you can't see the bees. Good beekeepers cannot necessarily write, good writers cannot necessarily keep bees. This a forum for talk. You can see our words, but you cannot see our bees. Moreover there is often much more to what we do to manage our bees than can be described in print. You have to *be there* to catch all the incidental factors that contribute to the success of a method. Andy has a tagline about not confusing opinion with fact. Some may think he is kidding. I assure you he is not. Few, if any of us can tell the difference all the time. Some of the best-dressed, most convincing beekeepers at meetings -- (and I presume here on the net) may not be what they seem. It is always fascinating to visit an beekeeper and loook at his/her hives and outfit, after having heard all about it for years. It isn't often what one expects. Enjoy the banter here, and learn lots -- I know I have -- but as another member tag says: "Test everything, hold onto the good". You can get lots of good ideas here, but please be sure to test them on a *local* expert before jumping too far in. When I have followed that advice, it has saved me a lot of grief. Thanks. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:49:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joel Govostes wrote. >You mentioned the spackling/dry wall compound buckets. I would wonder if >the material is food-approved, or if the compounds might contaminate the >honey, even if the buckets were scoured clean. I wonder if you could even >get them clean. > >Any BEE-Liners have information to offer on this? Could this be a good >source for bulk containers? Many years ago I got 5-gal pickle buckets from >a caterer. I used them, and certainly they were safe, but could never get >the dill-pickle smell out! I found an excellent source of plastic pails by visiting our local beer and wine brew house. The wine making grape juices come in 5 gallon pails, complete with lids. Ours do have fancy patterns on the side, and green lids, but at least they are food grade, and FREE. Our local guy puts them out and we help ourselves!! Lucky eh? **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:06:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Peters Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 5Gal/60lb plastic pails: The biggest drawback? The plastic becomes brittle with age and split. You have to pay attention to this because they usually split without warning when full! I've never had that happen with 60lb of honey but it did happen once when I was filling a juice machine with 5 gallons of bug juice when I worked in a college dining hall. What a mess. Drenched me and 4 students at the nearest table. Kind of funny once I managed to beat it back to the kitchen! Tim Peters, Kirby VT tpeters@kingcon.com KirBee Apiary, Bear Bait Honey I rather be flying! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:49:32 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >1) The width of the top bars. When placed in th hive, adjacent top bars >touch each other and thus create a "solid" lid. The honey comb hangs down >from the center of these bars. Consequently, the width of these bars must >the thickness of one honey comb plus one bee space. Is there no other 'lid' used? Eric Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:02:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Honey roasted peanuts REGARDING RE>Honey roasted peanuts I tried out the recipe Andy posted for honey roasted peanuts. They turned out delicious! However, the recipe didn't specify whether the nuts to be used should be raw or regular commercial salted peanuts. I decided to buy the raw nuts, and while tasting good after preparation, they never got nice and crunchy - they're still rather soft. I guess one should buy preroasted peanuts. I think an imker is a beekeeper, isn't it. Is this a Dutch or Low German word? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:06:27 -0500 Reply-To: James D Satterfield Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Comments: To: Eric Abell In-Reply-To: <199611151449.HAA13148@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Eric Abell wrote: > > > >1) The width of the top bars. When placed in th hive, adjacent top bars > >touch each other and thus create a "solid" lid. The honey comb hangs down from > >the center of these bars. Consequently, the width of these bars must the > >thickness of one honey comb plus one bee space. > > Is there no other 'lid' used? > The bars do make the top of the hive, but need to be protected from the elements. It can be done in any way that is convenient, and--if of concern--frugal. I have used a lot of cardboard which I've tried to waterproof by several means. I haven't found much to be satisfactory, but it's cheap and quiet comparted to the 5-v tin that I use mostly. I use scrap tin if it's available; otherwise, I buy a sheet of the tin for $7.50US which gives enough for three 20-bar hives and a 5-bar nuc. I place a brick on the top center of the hive, place the tin on, and use four bricks to weight it down so that it forms an arching top. Works well. This gives a space which provides good cooling in the summer. I can uncover some of my tb center notches to provides additional entrances and ventilation. I have yet to have a top blow off in the GeorgiaUSA summer thunderstorms. The tops could be tied on if bricks or stones aren't available. Covers could be plastic, thatching...anything to turn the water. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:32:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Stacking Hives and Caveat Emptor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> The singles are often overwintered over a strong hive.(Even a single >>medium can survive the winter here like that). They generally survive the >>winter and do good the next year but they are not always of sufficient strength >>in late spring to rent out for blueberry pollination. >> >>Regards Stan > >Would someone please explain in detail the process of putting two hives >"together" for the winter without actually combining them? I know this is >old hat for many on this list, but there are others like myself who just >don't know the exact details and don't want to find out the hard way. > >Thanks, > >Rick Hi Rick: The piece of equipment necessary is similar to an inner cover. It is generally a piece of plywood with a top and bottom rim (super length and width) and a notch for top entrance of the bottom hive on one rim and a notch for bottom entrance of the top hive on a different side of the other rim. Fancy ones have notches with doors all around and you can choose which to open. They also usually have a cut out in the middle of the plywood which is screened top and bottom so the queens are positively separated. When they have been in use for many years the screens are sometimes heavily propolized and IMHO the heat from the bottom hive will go up to some extent even through a solid piece of plywood without giving the top hive the additional moisture loading that they get when there is a screen. As has been mentioned on the list, there is also some drifting up of bees which tends to boost the weaker top hives. I find these boards are very useful for doing splits, as the limiting factor in spring splitting seems to be that the queens can only lay a brood pattern of size that the colony can heat. As to caveat emptor (buyer beware), I am uncertain as to what Allen is getting at. I did give my geographic location in the post, and I did not advocate or try to "sell" any type of management, I simply stated what I had success with. For many years the old Nova Scotia provincial apiarist, Endel Karmo, advocated wintering in Eastern Canada using multipacks of single full depth super brood chambers. These were based on four hives on a rectangular stand such as Allen uses, but with several layers of hives on top. He had good success with this and many people around here saw his hives as there were numerous open houses at his apiaries. One very nice feature of the divider boards is that the top hive is able to keep the bottom board clear of dead bees and debris because it is heated. I wish Allen had been more specific about whatever he took issue with in my post (but I'm sure he will be). I assume that he meant that a single medium depth brood chamber could not winter in Alberta, and I will admit that even here it has to be well stogged with good stores and have a young queen and not too many bees and bees of the right age (a late summer well fed nucleus). I choose to take his other comments either as a compliment to my writing abilities rather than an insult to my beehives or as something directed to postings in general :) Regards Stan (45.683 degrees north latitude, -62.700 longitude on a windy island surrounded by ice for four months of the year, not nearly as cold as Alberta, but much, much damper and with wild temperature fluctuations) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:49:12 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Top Bar Hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Readers. Please bear with a little history. All this interest on the list for top bar hives has set me thinking. How strange that a hive designed especially for third world, poverty stricken people should suddenly find such favour in rich countries such as the U.S.A. and Canada. The ancient Greeks discovered that a hive with tapering sides, matching the natural curve of combs built by bees, gave combs that were rarely attached to the sides and were thus removable. Somehow this knowledge disappeared and we had to wait till L L Langstroth before removable combs again appeared on the scene. In the 1960s Peter Paterson, a Kenyan beekeeper, joined the Bee Department of the Hampshire College of Agriculture. His aim was to develop a simple cheap hive for third world development, which could be made locally and did not need expensive frames, foundation, extractor, etc.. Working with Jack Tredwell, the County Beekeeper, they devised what became known as the Kenyan Top Bar Hive. As a frequent visitor to the department I saw much of the work. At the time no one considered it as an alternative to the multi-storied hive. It was to be a cheap, saw, hammer and nails hive, for poor people, single storied, to take around thirty combs. The only important dimension was the width of the top bars, which were solid and formed a sealed top. They tried centre and end entrances and settled for the end as the queen tended to keep the brood near the entrance. No excluder was used. I have a vague recollection that a Canadian beekeeper named Townsend ?? took the plans back to Ontario. Since then this hive has moved far from Kenya and is found all over the world. I do not think it is a commercial proposition as far as bulk honey is concerned but when old age and a creaking back creep up on us it might be a good alternative. Pressed honey from the comb is the best there is and there will be a constant supply of pure wax and the washings from the crushed comb will make mead or honey beer. What more could a hobbiest beekeeper want from life. A kind contributor to the list recently gave us a number of web sites. I see that two of them mention the KTBH and are reprints of articles which can be found in the ABJ, July and August 1989. Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:39:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Stacking Hives and Caveat Emptor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I wish Allen had been more specific about whatever he took issue > with in my post (but I'm sure he will be). > I choose to take his other comments either as a compliment to my > writing abilities rather than an insult to my beehives or as > something directed to postings in general :) Good thing Stan has a positive mindset, or I'd be getting scorched here :0 I guess this illustrates how easy it is to be misunderstood on the net. I spent quite a bit of time writing that piece, and it still is not very clear, I guess :( I actually did not refer to Stan's response -- or even mean to, but on ruminating, I suspect that I may have inadvertantly CCd him with my post. (Damn that Pegasus mail program anyhow! It's gotten me into hot water more than once). *** Of course, I was not trying to impugn my good friend's wisdom and motives *** What had gotten me thinking was that *an inquirer* did not state his location. I guess that I -- and others -- have been deeply disturbed and a bit saddened by 'A Pitiful Sight' because we saw it coming far off and tried to sound a warning. What I really was trying to say was this: "Don't be in too big a hurry to *believe* anything you read on the 'net". *** THAT APPLIES TO MY POSTS AS MUCH AS ANY!!! *** Net talk tends to off the cuff, from the hip, and the sources are often not subject to careful editing, peer review or sober second thought. (Some bee periodicals are somewhat indescriminate in what they publish too, but after a while we get to know which ones). Anyone can put up a web page for a few dollars, aqnd bvery little commitment. I know, I've done it. As they always say when giving advice, or should anyways: YMMV. FWIW Your friend :) Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:52:22 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives Comments: To: Sid Pullinger In-Reply-To: <199611142049.UAA09145@post.interalpha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Sid Pullinger wrote: Good historical commentary, Sid > excluder was used. I have a vague recollection that a Canadian beekeeper > named Townsend ?? took the plans back to Ontario. I believe you are correct; moreover, there are some excellent radio broadcast transcripts of Townsend explaining tbh's at a Canadian website that was posted earlier, the "Developing Countries Farm Radio Network > Since then this hive has moved far from Kenya and is found all over the > world. I do not think it is a commercial proposition as far as bulk honey > is concerned but when old age and a creaking back creep up on us it might be a > good alternative. Hear! Hear! Sid speaketh the truth! I don't have enough experience with my tbh's nor good spring seasons yet to really see what they can do. I'm getting more experience with "spreading brood", and I'm going to see if Carnolians adapt better to tbh's...but the fun comes in working them and not lifting supers or disturbing the bees very much at all. > Pressed honey from the comb is the best there is and > there will be a constant supply of pure wax and the washings from the > crushed comb will make mead or honey beer. What more could a hobbiest > beekeeper want from life. > Sid, in this paragraph you have distilled everything that needs to be said. Want more honey, more wax, more mead? Set up more tbh's! Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:54:37 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: (Fwd) virus alert (Not A Joke) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Beekeepers Thought I'd pass on the following... >>>>> "There is a computer virus that is being sent across the >>>>> internet. If you receive an e-mail with a subject line of >>>>> "Irina", DO NOT read the message. Delete it immediately. >>>>> Some miscreant is sending people files under the name of >>>>> "Irinia". If you receive this file or e-mail, do not download >>>>> it. It has a virus that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating >>>>> anything on it. Please be careful and forward this e-mail to >>>>> anyone you care about." >>>> >>>> >> >>Eric Gist >>Technical Asst. >>Dept:Computer Services >>E-mail: ecg1@cornell.edu >>WebPage: 128.253.145.53/Eric >>IP:132.236.91.204 >>phone: (607) 254-6168 >>Fax: (607) 254-7166 >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:53:35 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "List Pesa." Subject: Re: bee venom production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello beekeeping lovers !! I'm an Uruguayan beekeeper and I'm producing bee venom. For this reason I want to contact potencial buyers for this product round the world. Does anyone know any bee venom buyer for me to contact and ask about quality characteristics they are asking for bee venom ? Thanks in advance for your help. Robert My adress is: pesa@netgate.comintur.com.uy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:23:05 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Beekeeping links MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've noted an increase (naturally...) in the number of beekeeping related pages on the Web. As I'd like to keep my own site up-to-date, I'd appreciate it if BEE-L readers would let me know of new sites or ones I haven't seen yet. After a week or so, I'll make a revised list available to all BEE-L readers who want it. To get an email of my list as it currently stands, send a new message (Don't press the REPLY button as you read this!) to: nickw@wave.co.nz and in the Subject: line of your message (not the body or main part of the message), put only the two words: SEND LINKS and my mailer will send you a message with the 40 odd links I currently have listed. If your mailer handles it, the URLs may be 'clickable'; otherwise you'll have to type/copy them into your browser. If you know of other sites worth including, send me a message with the URL and a short description, and I'll do my best to keep maintaining a good listing of all the bee related sites. Thanks! (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> The singles are often overwintered over a strong hive.(Even a single >>medium can survive the winter here like that). They generally survive the >>winter and do good the next year but they are not always of sufficient strength >>in late spring to rent out for blueberry pollination. >> >>Regards Stan > >Would someone please explain in detail the process of putting two hives >"together" for the winter without actually combining them? I know this is >old hat for many on this list, but there are others like myself who just >don't know the exact details and don't want to find out the hard way. > >Thanks, > >Rick The smaller (single-story) unit is placed over another, full-sized colony, with a board between. The board should have a rim around it to provide bee space (much like an inner cover or crown board). If the board has a through passage for air (such as a screened-over bee-escape hole) or is made of hardware cloth (screen), the warm air from the lower cluster helps the upper one maintain its temperature. An entrance is provided for the upper unit, often by cutting a 1-2" wide section out of the dividing board or screen's rim. In this situation I usually pin a little landing board of cardboard just below the upper entrance, securing it with drawing-pins/thumbtacks. This gives the bees that fly from the upper unit a better chance of returning safely in the cold and snow. The piggy-back colony still needs plenty of sealed stores. These can be supplemented in late winter or early spring with dry sugar. As far as the size of such a colony, in order to winter successfully, I'm not sure, as I've done it only a few times. Just what the minimum population could be is something to explore. Ex: Last winter I had an autumn swarm which I hived in a medium super. They hadn't accomplished much by frost, so I set it over a screened board like mentioned above, and placed some extracting combs of buckwheat honey in the super, in place of a few empty combs. The cluster covered maybe 6 medium combs. By beginning of March they were a pitiful group, not much bigger than a fist. I gave them dry sugar, and a little candy and somehow they squeaked through. Later in spring they slowly built up to 3 deeps and gave me 2 full supers to boot. I wouldn't have wagered on their survival, judging by their state in late winter. Surprise, surprise. (The larger colony, underneath, was none the worse from this arrangement. However, I did jack up the overall top cover 1/2 " to make sure the moisture from below didn't rise to accumulate on the weak colony above. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums How does one winter a hive made of three meduium boxes? I prefer to winter in three medium boxes, with at least 60 lb of honey stored for the winter. Towards the end of March, the bees are completly out of the lowest box. This box is then removed, detail inspected, and cleaned, then replaced on top of the colony to make my first reverse. A box of fresh drawn comb can be used to rotate the hive's comb, in which case the old bottom box's comb is scraped off and melted down. Since I use plastic foundation, the cleaned old bottom box now becomes a super of undrawn foundation waiting for the honey flow. Occasionally, I will winter a colony with 4 medium boxes, expecially if the top box is not quite fully capped or was gathered when I had Apistan strips in the colony. I normally make hive inspections during January warm spells, and adjust things as needed at that time. As for supering and splits, they are done much the same as if I was running deeps + mediums. The main exception is that when I make a spring split from Illinois frames, I use 4 frames instead of the three customarily used from deeps. These Illinois splits enjoy an excellent market from local beekeepers. Before readers do likewise, please compare my Washington, DC location to your own. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:25:08 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Abell wrote: > Is there no other 'lid' used? Only if you use one. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 23:35:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wesley A Voigt Jr Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails Hello all One place I have found to to get free pails from is the Deli section of your food market. With frosting buckets, I don't have to worry so much about contamination Wesley A Voigt Jr ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 03:35:02 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Essential Oils Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just recived a catalog from Liberty Natural Products they have a web site at www.teleport.com/~liberty I have not looked at yet. You can also call in the USA 1-800-289-8427. They have a minimum order of $50.00 Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 U.S.A. ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:44:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums Comments: To: WGMiller@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The all-mediums configuration has the advantage (so it's said) that you are more often shifting entire boxes than individual frames. That is one reason why Dr. C. L. Farrar used and recommended them decades ago. His, incidentally, were more or less square, and held 13 frames of Illinois (medium) depth. He overwintered colonies in stacks of 4 or 5 of these. I recently came across a new German beekeeping manual in which the author devoted an entire section of the book to the management scheme using mediums only. It was the same basic idea -- you shift around entire boxes to direct the activities of the colony. Evidently this is catching on in Europe. The smaller units are a great deal easier to move around. The drawbacks are, you have 30 or 40 brood combs, so it can be a royal pain to find the queen. The investment is more, as you need a higher number of boxes and frames to achieve the same volume as with deeps. This can get expensive, as frames and boxes are about the same price whether you buy deep or medium size. Burr combing, or connecting of the combs in one box to the ones below and above, is a bane here, too. The bees (evidently) prefer continuity in their brood nest, so the spaces between brood boxes get filled with drone comb and brood, even though the bee-space is "correct." This happens with deeps, too, of course, but perhaps moreso with shallow frames and numerous shallow brood-boxes comprising the brood chamber. There is more wood within the brood nest, too, and some have claimed this restricts the queen's rounds, and as a result the compactness of the brood pattern. Please relate any experience along these lines. Thanks... JWG ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:32:49 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Re: virus alert (Not A Joke) Hello All, If you were not concerned by this original post, just delete this, don't worry and be happy. This is a neat little thing I subscribe to. This issue covers computer viruses. I'm sorry if this is an inappropirate waste of bandwidth, but I thought some might find the info useful. Steve Creasy in Maryville, Tennessee --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: Bob Rankin To: TOURBUS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: TOURBUS - 05 Sep 1996 - Eeeek! Viruses!!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:05:50 -0500 Message-ID: /~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~|~\ | "Why | Surf When / You Can | Ride The | Bus?" / | \ |__________|__________/__________|__________|__________/ | \ / /______|----\ | Get FOUR FREE CD-Roms! Find out how by visiting |//////| | | http://www.worldvillage.com/freecds.htm |//////| | | |//////| | ~~~/~~~\~~/~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~\~~~~ \___/ \___/ T h e I n t e r n e t T o u r B u s \___/ TODAY'S TOURBUS STOP: Computer Viruses Boo! Did I scare you? Probably not... but today's TOURBUS posting might, because we're going to talk about Computer Viruses. Ooooooh! Let me start by saying that MOST of what you've heard about computer viruses is probably wrong. Your computer can't get one from a toilet seat, or by getting sneezed on by another computer that has a virus. You DON'T have to be scared of computer viruses, but you DO need to take certain precautions to protect your computer and its data. This issue of TOURBUS will point you to some excellent resources to help you to learn more about computer viruses (and related nasties), ease your poor troubled mind, and protect yourself from the threat. Let's start with a few (somewhat geeky) definitions: A COMPUTER VIRUS is a program that can infect (invade) other computer programs. A COMPUTER WORM is a self-contained program that is able to spread copies of itself, usually over a network. A TROJAN HORSE is a program that purports to be fun or useful but actually does something nasty. It cannot spread like a virus or worm. A MAIL BOMB is an e-mail message that can allegedly cause harm to your computer simply by opening and reading the message. If you're not a geek, the difference between these five things is pretty subtle. One way or another, you're dealing with a malicious entity that can cause damage to your system. If you like, go ahead and call them all viruses, but beware that you're likely to be "corrected" by someone with one to many pencils in his pocket protector. Are These Things For Real? -------------------------- Viruses, worms and trojan horses do exist. Maybe you've heard of "Stoned", "Michelangelo" or others - these are real and can cause serious damage to a single computer or an entire network. Anything from spurious messages appearing on your screen to unexplained slowdowns to mangled files to a complete hard disk wipeout is possible. But let me digress for just a moment to discuss some viruses that aren't... * The "Good Times Virus" - is a HOAX that has circulated for several years. It's supposed to be a mail bomb, but such things simply do not exist. YOU CAN NOT GET A VIRUS SIMPLY BY OPENING YOUR E-MAIL. A virus can only affect your system if you install and run a piece of software. * The "Netscape Mail Bomb" is not a real threat. A now-fixed bug in Navigator V3 could result in your system locking up when a certain bit of HTML code was encountered. Requests for more information about this will be cheerfully ignored. :-) * PKZIP300 - is not a hoax, but it has become bigger than life. PKZIP300 is supposedly a rogue "Version 3" of the popular PKZIP software that is "circulating widely" on the Internet. Claims that this trojan horse program can cause damage SIMPLY BY DOWNLOADING IT are ridiculous, and to my knowledge it is not publicly available ANYWHERE on the Internet or elsewhere. See the PKWARE site at http://www.pkware.com for more info. How Can I Avoid Computer Viruses? --------------------------------- First, you can't avoid viruses by shunning shareware, freeware or games. There are cases where even commercial "shrink wrapped" software was accidentally packaged with a virus. The best course of action is to be cautious of ANY newly acquired software and to use "anti-virus" software that will automatically alert you to any potential dangers. I also highly recommend that you read the "VIRUS-L FAQ" to get expert answers to questions like these and others: * What are the known viruses, major symptoms and possible cures? * Where can I get free or shareware antivirus programs? * Where can I get more information on viruses, etc? * What steps should be taken in diagnosing and identifying viruses? * What is the best way to remove a virus? This FAQ is online at http://www.bocklabs.wisc.edu/~janda/virl_faq.html and can also be obtained by sending e-mail to LISTSERV@LEHIGH.EDU with the command "INFO VIRUS-L" in the message body. The VIRUS-L mailing list (also available on Usenet as comp.virus) is a forum for sharing information and ideas about computer viruses. Discussions include virus sightings, virus prevention and Q & A. To subscribe, send e-mail to LISTSERV@LEHIGH.EDU with the command "SUBSCRIBE VIRUS-L Your Name" in the message body. Who Writes Malicious Computer Viruses? -------------------------------------- Remember that kid in high school - the one you picked on because his pant cuffs didn't come down quite far enough to meet his cheap sneakers? Your merciless taunting drove him into the computer lab, where he sought revenge on the entire human race. This is all YOUR fault. :-) Some Other Cool Virus-Related Stuff ----------------------------------- I hope you'll read the VIRUS-L FAQ and get yourself educated on how to avoid computer viruses. When you're done there, here's further reading: * ZDNet Download Help - http://www.hotfiles.com/hlpframe.html * Computer Virus Myths Page - http://www.kumite.com/myths/ * NH&A Anti-Virus Page - http://www.nha.com * Virus Humor - http://www.netwrx.net/raport2/cmptrs.htm And when you're done there, pop over to visit AARDWULF, the sponsor who made today's issue possible (and find out if aardwolves really exist). +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ AARDWULF Apparel offers quality brands like Timberland and Calvin Klein at prices you can only get on the Web! +--------------------( http://www.aardwulf.com )---------------------+ See you next time! --Bob ======================================================================= For info on my new book --> "Doctor Bob's Painless Guide To The Internet" <-- send e-mail to BobRankin@MHV.net w/ Subject: SEND BOOKINFO or visit my home page at http://csbh.mhv.net/~bobrankin Drop in to read reviews and sample chapters! =----------------------------------------------------------------------= Join : Send SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Your Name to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Leave : Send SIGNOFF TOURBUS to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Archives: On the Web at http://www.worldvillage.com/tourbus.htm Advertising: E-mail BobRankin@MHV.net w/ Subject: SEND TBRATES ======================================================================= TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1996, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin All rights reserved. Redistribution is allowed only with permission. Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus! --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 09:58:09 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: virus alert (Not A Joke) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for the info. While the tour quote did not really clarify anything much as far as *email* viruses is concerned, I think maybe I'll say a thing or two here. (seeing as I started the last email virus scare with a joking subject line containing the line GOOD TIMES). It elicited a good deal of chatter. At any rate, yes Virginia -- contrary to what the experts may have told us based on old info -- you _CAN_ get a really nasty virus, bomb, tojan, etc. _by email_!!!! However in order for that to happen, YOU MUST: 1. Have a system that the nasty entity can act upon -- eg: a PC virus or whatever will not bother a Mac or UNIX computer. 2 The email must actually be downloaded to your own computer, not read on a shell acount. 3. You must be: a) using an advanced mail program that can -- and is set up to -- *execute* or display *attached* files automatically OR b)you must decide to execute the attachment yourself, believing that it is benign. 4. And you must receive email from someone really nasty (or stupid). You see, a program can be sent almost anywhere by attaching it to email. Trojans can ride along that way, and depending on your system setup, could do much damage instantly after being unleashed. Therefore be careful of *attachments*. The email itself is harmless. DE complained about receiving files on his hard drive some time back when getting his mail. Some snickered, but his virus detection software must have been set on 'bulletproof', since it noticed the attachments being saved as files. These files, while likely benign (MS mailers tend to send two part messages), are cause for some vigilence and concern. Now, these files can sit on a drive for a long time until you wonder some day what they are and doubleclick on one. Therefore some awareness is advisable. If you don't think that the net is full of holes, try this URL: http://Kiev.home.ml.org I *think* it is harmless, but it will extract your AUTOEXEC.BAT file from your computer -- without your permission and display it to you!!!! It is put up by a fellow CUUG member. The only reason that we are not overrun with trojans, etc. is that most people are pretty careful and take care of one another. If you know who is sending you email, and don't have automatic decoding and execution enabled, and you delete any suspicious attachments, you should never have to worry. FWIW Have a GOOD TIME(S) ! Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Cote Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I echo Bill's comments. We do the same. This matter of schlepability has become particularly important as we venture into our planned major expansion from 8 to 60 hives this spring. The venture is expected to be run principally by my wife, a strong woman but no amazon. Heaving full deeps is out of the question. So, as soon as that air compressor and nailer get here we'll be stapling together 300 or so of the buggers. Tim At 07:48 PM 11/15/96 -0500, you wrote: >How does one winter a hive made of three meduium boxes? > >I prefer to winter in three medium boxes, with at least 60 lb of honey stored for >the winter. Towards the end of March, the bees are completly out of the lowest >box. This box is then removed, detail inspected, and cleaned, then replaced on >top of the colony to make my first reverse. A box of fresh drawn comb can be >used to rotate the hive's comb, in which case the old bottom box's comb is >scraped off and melted down. Since I use plastic foundation, the cleaned old >bottom box now becomes a super of undrawn foundation waiting for the honey flow. > >Occasionally, I will winter a colony with 4 medium boxes, expecially if the >top box is not quite fully capped or was gathered when I had Apistan strips >in the colony. > >I normally make hive inspections during January warm spells, and adjust >things as needed at that time. > >As for supering and splits, they are done much the same as if I was running >deeps + mediums. The main exception is that when I make a spring split from >Illinois frames, I use 4 frames instead of the three customarily used from deeps. > These Illinois splits enjoy an excellent market from local beekeepers. > >Before readers do likewise, please compare my Washington, DC location to your >own. > >W. G. Miller >Gaithersburg, MD > > beesbuzz@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 07:51:02 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" <<<< What size supers do you use Sid Pullinger? You must be 115 or so aren't you, with all your tales of beekeeping early in the century :)>>>>> Sorry to disappoint you. Although that is the age I feel sometimes you are way out chronologically. I started beekeeping in 1930 so I am knocking on a bit, as they say hereabouts. Old men often reminisce about the "good old days" which usually were not good at all. However, for me as a hobby beekeeper they were excellent. Farmers had not learnt about blanket spraying, hedges were rampant, weeds everywhere and hay fields full of colour. When the sun shone the nectar poured in and there was no oil seed rape (canola) to force one into hasty extraction. We have a hotch-potch collection of hives here, six different types of broodchamber and I have tried most of them at different times. Usual practice is to keep the queen on deep combs under an excluder and use shallows for supers. Depending on the broodchamber used the super combs range from the British standard, a small comb, to the largest, the Dadant shallow. I ran Dadants for many years and those supers want some lifting. A common hive around here is of Langstroth width but Dadant depth, and referred to as the Jumbo, using Langstroth shallows as supers. The commonest hive to be found is the National, which has small combs and is too small for a good queen, so that two brood chambers or one and a super are necessary. Long ago we followed the Kenyan TBH with a long, single storied hive using standard brood combs, designed for the older beekeeper who had got beyond the heavy lifting stage. Many of us took part in the testing but the results were disappointing. Most extractors took only super frames, the yields were lower and the bees appeared reluctant to travel sideways. Gradually the experiment fizzled out and the hives became storage chests. Now I have reached the old age, creaking back stage perhaps it is time for me to turn to the KTBH. Over the last two years I have been trying an alternative. I split several Dadant broodchambers in half to give two five comb boxes making a two storied set. On top go similar half sized shallows. With four or five supers this makes a very tall hive but no heavy lifting. It would be too unstable in the open air but I have a large beehouse where they are quite safe. Results so far are promising. >From someone who has read as far as this I would appreciate some information. Years ago I had occasion to compile statistics on world honey production, country by country. Most of this came from the USDA. Do they still issue these figures and if so how can I obtain them? Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 22:44:57 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gunnar Thygesen Organization: Micro Computer User Group Subject: Imker In-Reply-To: v01520d01aeafd23b030c@[199.240.82.124] From: gunnar@mcug.ping.dk (Gunnar Thygesen) Hi Ed, 15-Nov-96, from elevi@Aristotle.net with Subject: Honey roasted peanuts with a PS: What is an Imker? In German there are three words for beekeeper: Imker, Bienenzuechter and Bienenvater. I believe the words are used in different part in the German speaking countries. No German speaking beekeeper in BEE-L to explain further? That's all from a Danish speaking beekeeper. Regards Gunnar PS. ue in Bienenzuechter is actually an u with two dots above. --- Terminate 4.00/Pro -- | Internet: gunnar@mcug.ping.dk (Fidonet: Gunnar Thygesen 2:235/15.32) | Micro Computer User Group (MCUG) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:09:03 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gunnar Thygesen Organization: Micro Computer User Group Subject: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) In-Reply-To: v02130500aeb16eb5ab34@[132.236.155.179] From: gunnar@mcug.ping.dk (Gunnar Thygesen) Hi jwg6@cornell.edu , 15-Nov-96 02:28:29, jwg6@cornell.edu wrote to BEE-L Subject: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Well Joel, you wrote a fine and comprehensive story about the TBHs but did Langtroth discover the bee space and the frame idea? According the book ' Some Important Operations in Bee Management' by T.S.K and M.P. Johansson 1978 issued by International Bee Research Association Chapter 10: Lorenzo L. Langstroth and the Bee Space he did not and he never claimed that he did. Quote: We now have collected considerable evidence that he himself took pains to disavow such an assertion but somehow these went unheeded. Unquote. That was about the bee space. About the frames he made notes in his third edition of his book in preparation of the fourth edition which was never issued because of his illness. Langtroth intended to insert as a first paragraph to the introduction that he knew about Dr Bevan's work based upon Huber's work. Further he noted on page 15: Here state only Huber - Bevan - give some account of Munn and Debeauvoys - with plates etc etc. He also mentioned Dzierzon hive. But read the chapter because there is much more said by himself but too much to be quoted here, the chapter is on 10 pages. Regards Gunnar --- Terminate 4.00/Pro -- | Internet: gunnar@mcug.ping.dk (Fidonet: Gunnar Thygesen 2:235/15.32) | Micro Computer User Group (MCUG) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 21:51:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Drone foundation? In-Reply-To: <199611160751.HAA04406@post.interalpha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello all I'm writing on behalf of one of the guys in our local bee group, who is trying to find out where to get some drone foundation, hopefully from a North American source. He is looking for wax foundation, not that fully "drawn" plastic comb. If anyone could reply with an address or phone number, I would appreciate it.. Thanks..:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 01:05:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dave Green, Eastern Pollinator Newsletter" Subject: Re: 5 gallon pails In a message dated 96-11-14 13:27:13 EST, jwg6@cornell.edu (Joel Govostes) writes: << You mentioned the spackling/dry wall compound buckets. I would wonder if the material is food-approved, or if the compounds might contaminate the honey, even if the buckets were scoured clean. I wonder if you could even get them clean. Any BEE-Liners have information to offer on this? Could this be a good source for bulk containers? Many years ago I got 5-gal pickle buckets from a caterer. I used them, and certainly they were safe, but could never get the dill-pickle smell out! >> I would also be afraid of spackling or other such compounds. Pickle buckets we've also tried and found wanting. We have standardized pretty much on the 4 1/4 gal pails in which donut fillings are shipped. I can get these in quantity for a dollar or a dollar and a half. One advantage is that the lids do not require an opening tool and are more reuseable than the 5 gallon lids, which often tear as you open them. They are used for a food product, so are cleaner. The only drawback I've seen, is that they sometimes only rinse them at the shops. When nested the oily filling can be trapped between pails and mold forms, staining and possibly contaminating the plastic. I wouldn't want ones that have been stored a long time this way. They are too hard to clean. We've wrapped them with a lot of tape and shipped them with no problem, too. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green, PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC 29554 (Dave & Jan's Pollination Service, Pot o'Gold Honey Co.) Practical Pollination Home Page Dave & Janice Green http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:28:05 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: Deeps vs. Mediums Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:44 AM 11/16/96 -0500, you wrote: >The all-mediums configuration has the advantage (so it's said) that you are >more often shifting entire boxes than individual frames. That is one >reason why Dr. C. L. Farrar used and recommended them decades ago. His, >incidentally, were more or less square, and held 13 frames of Illinois >(medium) depth. He overwintered colonies in stacks of 4 or 5 of these. > >I recently came across a new German beekeeping manual in which the author >devoted an entire section of the book to the management scheme using >mediums only. It was the same basic idea -- you shift around entire boxes >to direct the activities of the colony. Evidently this is catching on in >Europe. > >The smaller units are a great deal easier to move around. The drawbacks >are, you have 30 or 40 brood combs, so it can be a royal pain to find the >queen. The investment is more, as you need a higher number of boxes and >frames to achieve the same volume as with deeps. This can get expensive, as >frames and boxes are about the same price whether you buy deep or medium >size. > >Burr combing, or connecting of the combs in one box to the ones below and >above, is a bane here, too. The bees (evidently) prefer continuity in >their brood nest, so the spaces between brood boxes get filled with drone >comb and brood, even though the bee-space is "correct." This happens with >deeps, too, of course, but perhaps moreso with shallow frames and numerous >shallow brood-boxes comprising the brood chamber. There is more wood within >the brood nest, too, and some have claimed this restricts the queen's >rounds, and as a result the compactness of the brood pattern. Please relate >any experience along these lines. >Thanks... JWG Food for though and comments. How about 8 frame deeps Dan Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box #5 Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 U.S.A. ddempsey@ddt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 23:59:00 NZDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ross Ward Subject: Re: Honey Pumps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi from the south of New Zealand to fellow Bee-Listers I am seeking your assistance and thought we could start a new thread. I am building a new honey processing plant which requires a number of honey pumps . I would like to see some discussion on the list on what beekeepers in larger operations have found to work well . 1. Cappings pump -which will not easily jam (with small broken peices of comb frame), to pump more than 1.5 tonne / hr. We wish to replace a 2 inch "Pender" 6 vane honey pump which pumps the cappings from the uncapper and outflow from the extractors. It pumps through a heat exchanger to a Cooke & Beale type centrifuge to separate the wax from the honey. 2. General honey Pumping. a)Has anybody had experience with rubber impeller pumps or pumps other than gear. b) We are currently using gear pumps but am interested to consider other options. It is important that the pump is airtight, so that air is not incorporated into the honey and also reliable. 3. Variable speed pump. A pump suitable for use in a variable speed mode, but able to pump honey at a reasonably consistant speed even if the outlet pressure varies somewhat ie pumping through an inline filter. 4. High speed pump. Am considering using a "Wilden M8" air driven diaphram pump. for pumping out drums of warm honey and quickly transfering honey from tank to tank. Has anybody had experience with diaphram pumps, and has there been a problem with air getting into the honey? The other option being considered for the high speed pump is a Viking internal gear pump (works in a similar way to sliding vane pump but uses a gear within a gear instead) Any comments on our above listed requirements would be greatly appreciated not only by me but probably a number of B-Listers. Even if this could just open up the subject of moving honey by any means from A to B in the extracting / packing plant, - I look forward to your responses Ross Ward. Gore, Southland, N.Z. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 08:16:18 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Stacking Hives Comments: To: Stan Sandler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I would be interested in your experiences with stacking hives. I > imagine you must have tried it at some time and I would be surprised > if a single well stocked deep super that wasn't too populous with > old bees couldn't overwinter *sometimes* even in your area. We do it all the time. I have 400 out there now -- but as _doubles_ in a regular four pack. The single is on top and the added box is on the bottom, of course. > I imagine that the extra labour would be big drawback in a large > commercial operation. It makes the bottom hives difficult to deal > with in the spring. That's the problem. Using the stacking idea, the _lowers_ dwindle, and also cannot be checked for feed without unwrapping and lifting and drifting -- and a general mess if the day is warm, or chilling if the day is cool. All in all, it is just one of those ideas that sounds great in theory, but is a pain in practice (IMO). The top hives (singles) are usually okay until Spring, but have to be removed too early -- in order to avoid drifting, and to allow access to the lowers. I guess my whole point is that singles seem to do better set on top of a full brood box to make a double -- and then wrapped as a double. Or, they can be wrapped as singles. In the former case, in which case, by spring the 'singles' are often indistinguishable fom the hives that were real doubles in the late summer. And they require no special treatment. Some fellas in Sask have been writing in ABJ about wintering singles in four packs. I haven't really tried wrapping singles in four packs, since I can't see the advantage over making them into doubles. Singles in the north here require mollycoddeling and worry, since they run out of feed so fast here (our winters are extra long) and the exceptional ones run out of room for expansion. > But with a four pack base and wrapping as you > do, it sure gives a lot of heat to the upper hives. Maybe, but bottom heat is not the problem, really. Besides the bottom good hives lose the insulation that is important -- the top insulation -- and dwindle. Moreover they are not easily manageable. > BTW, I very rarely stack a medium. I was only making the point that > it CAN be done. It can. A friend of mine was wintering 20? medium nucs in a big bundle. He had 85%+ success one year -- and a mess the next. > I have good success with deeps. You probably know > or know of Henry Pirker in the Peace River, I believe, since you > mentioned you might try indoor wintering. Yup. > There is an 800 hive > operation in Nova Scotia that overwinters in a Pirker building all > in single deeps. They come through the winter with sufficient > strength to be built up and rented out for blueberry pollination I > am told. (But I am also told that many of the hives that are rented > out in the Maritimes SHOULDN'T be.!!) Should work. I built such a building one year (15 years ago?), and tried it out, but I think the hives must have been poor going in. It wasn't worth the hassle. I must confess I had trouble keeping the heat and air circulation right, so I can't fault the system, just my tendency to prefer easy solutions where all efforts have the same end result. It is an ideal setup for a hobbyist, since you can really play with the bees, though. > I only stack about 20 hives (10%), at most, so you can > see that I am choosy about what I think will survive. Probably doesn't matter as much in Washington or Oregon as it does here. In the lower areas, moisture is likely the problem, not warmth. > P.S. When Endel Karmo stacked hives in Nova Scotia he used solid > dividers I believe, so moisture did not go up, but the top hives > were NOT provided with an upper entrance. I do however, for > ventilation, but it is a major source of heat loss, and I might be > able to get away without it since the hives are small and have a > screened tray feeder with six inches of kiln dried wood shavings on > top, which absorbs alot of moisture. The trick here -- according to an old old beekeeper who showed me some of the nicest wintering singles I have ever seen -- is to have enough ventillation that the shavings can dry out _from the top_. Otherwise they are no insulation at all and maintain a higher humididty than ideal. As far as bottom heat is concerned, I think that it is a red herring in wintering. It seems important to us, but is not of much importance to the bees. The most important heat is the heat at the *top* of the cluster when brood rearing starts, and whether that heat is lost or conserved. If the lid is well insulated, it acts as a mirror for the heat, allowing the cluster to be over twice as large as it would be able to be without. Picture a basketball -- that is the Spring cluster without top insulation. With top insulation, the cluster can form below virtually the entire lid, covering far more volume (and food, and brood). This makes the difference up here between subsistence and thriving. Using the single on top of double, yes, you can get the single to come thru, but often at great cost of your double. Additionally you lose management options. If the single is any good, it can stand on its own (with good insulation and a little ventillation). Why hobble the excellent to enhance the doubtful? Or, as Peter Drucker said, "Never put a first class resource into a second class result". FWIW Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 08:25:38 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Honey Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Even if this could just open up the subject of moving honey by any > means from A to B in the extracting / packing plant, - I look > forward to your responses... When you say honey processing, I am not sure whether you mean extracting, or bottling -- or both. My response here applies only to extracting. Although I have bottled and packed millions of pounds by now, I really do not have any good answers for that part. ------------------------ I'm kind of partial to gravity, myself and use it wherever possible. It is low cost and seldom breaks down. Unfortunately, pumps do often have to be used to get the honey to somewhere where gravity can take over. If you are reasonably careful to float and skim off wood and wax, most any gear or Jabsco type of pump will move an awful lot of honey cheaply. Many now move wax and wood and honey and nails all down one line -- a practice that I personally do not like. In that case, much more expensive pumps and separating equipment are needed. As far as I am concerned, there is no need -- for most bulk honey -- to use methods more arcane than settling. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 07:03:25 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Gunnar Thygesen wrote: >Well Joel, you wrote a fine and comprehensive story about the TBHs but >did Langtroth discover the bee space and the frame idea? Almost no discoveries are made by one person. A great discovery is useless unless it's use is described and publicized. Langstroth explained how to use the bee space and changed beekeeping. It is convenient to say that Langstroth discovered the bee space and that Columbus discovered America. Btu. you are correct we should always remember on whose shoulders they were standing. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 18:07:59 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Honey Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ross Ward wrote: > I am building a new honey processing plant which requires a number of honey > pumps . > > 1. Cappings pump -which will not easily jam (with small broken peices of > comb frame), to pump more than 1.5 tonne / hr. > We wish to replace a 2 inch "Pender" 6 vane honey pump which pumps the > cappings from the uncapper and outflow from the extractors. It pumps through a > heat exchanger to a Cooke & Beale type centrifuge to separate the wax from the > honey. 2. General honey Pumping. a)Has anybody had experience with rubber > impeller pumps or pumps other than gear. b) We are currently using gear pumps > but am interested to consider other options. It is important that the pump is > airtight, so that air is not incorporated into the honey and also reliable. Hi Ross, Good to have another experienced Kiwi on the list, welcome onboard. The pump that would work in all situations is a loob pump. It is expencive, but will pump anything anywhere, at the speed and pressure you want. Rubber impeller pumps work in most places, but don't like pieces of timber or nails. Much pump for the money. Same goes for mono pumps, they might be better at handling pieces of frames than impeller type. John Syme in Ashburton is using mono pumps, you might check with him. > 4. High speed pump. I think you need to inform us on how much you need to pump, kg/hour, and the temp of the honey you are pumping, to dig further into the subject. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: gunnar@mcug.ping.dk (Gunnar Thygesen) > >Hi jwg6@cornell.edu , > >15-Nov-96 02:28:29, jwg6@cornell.edu wrote to BEE-L > Subject: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) >Well Joel, you wrote a fine and comprehensive story about the TBHs but >did Langtroth discover the bee space and the frame idea? Okay, on second thought he didn't "discover" the bee space, but figured out how to design a hive in which the frames and lid would not get connected to the hive box, making them difficult to remove. It seemed like a great idea to him, anyway. A Russian bee-book I looked over (recent edition was an English translation) gave credit for the modern moveable-frame hive to... you guessed it, some Russian guy. They mentioned Langstroth somewhere in there, mainly to note that it was NOT his discovery. So there. Perhaps the idea hit a number of people at about the same time. Maybe someone in Denmark thought of it too.:) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 07:45:01 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Gunnar Thygesen wrote: > Quote: We now have collected >considerable evidence that he himself took pains to disavow such an >assertion but somehow these went unheeded. Unquote. That was about the >bee space. About the frames he made notes in his third edition of >his book in preparation of the fourth edition which was never issued >because of his illness. Langtroth intended to insert as a first paragraph >to the introduction that he knew about Dr Bevan's work based upon Huber's >work. Further he noted on page 15: Here state only Huber - Bevan - give >some account of Munn and Debeauvoys - with plates etc etc. He also >mentioned Dzierzon hive. >But read the chapter because there is much more said by himself but >too much to be quoted here, the chapter is on 10 pages. > >Regards Gunnar >--- Terminate 4.00/Pro >-- >| Internet: gunnar@mcug.ping.dk (Fidonet: Gunnar Thygesen 2:235/15.32) >| Micro Computer User Group (MCUG) > After I wrote my first comment I got out my copy of " Hive and the Honeybee." (1859 3rd edition) Inside I found a clipping I took from "Speey Bee" 10/97 that said that Colvin build the first movable frame hive and he and Langstroth and Wagner were building and selling hives from a factory near Baltimore. Lanstroth talked more about the frame he put around his combs that he did the bee space. Apparently, until his book the top bar hive was state-of-the-art and it require cutting the sides of the comb loose each time it was removed. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:54:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: 8-fr equipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Food for though and comments. How about 8 frame deeps > >Dan > > >Daniel D. Dempsey >P. O. Box #5 >Red Bluff, CA 96080-0005 >U.S.A. >ddempsey@ddt.net The 8-frame size was very popular and common for many years, mainly early part of this century. Some folks still swear by them. I have a few knocking around but I just use them for nuclei in the spring. It is without question a very convenient size/weight for lifting and carrying. Some U.S. commercial operations still use them instead of the "standard" 10-fr size. (In the classifieds of the bee magazines you can sometimes still find lots of the 8-fr equip't for sale from established operations that are selling out.) The main drawback has been that the hives are more likely to tip over if stacked up high with 8-fr boxes; 10-fr size is more stable. But the crops nowadays are not what they were in the 30's/40's! So the hives shouldn't need to be stacked so high. I think two 8-fr deep brood chambers would make quite a decent sized brood nest, with the possible advantage that more of the winter food would be situated above the cluster as opposed to further out on the hive edges (often a problem with 10-fr size). Anyone here using 8-fr to advantage? Sid's "half-Dadant" hive sounds like an interesting idea as well. The bees should be happy as the colony expansion would be mainly vertical in the 5 or 8- -frame equipment. That could speed up comb construction and colony development a bit too. bzzzzzzzzzzzzing! YOW! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:09:14 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS Subject: Dill-pickle smell In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Many years ago I got 5-gal pickle buckets from a caterer. I used them, >>and certainly they were safe, but could never get the dill-pickle smell >>out! >> Dave Green Dave, >From an old beekeeper I learned this trick to get rid of unwanted smells in jars: Simply expose such jars to full sunlight for a day. I tested this and could not believe my nose. All the smell was gone by the evening! Whether this works with plastic containers too I don't know but I would give it a try. Sunshine might be rare in your location but it's hard to beat the price! Hope this will (di)solve your problem. Hans ************************************************************** Hans-Ulrich THOMAS. Beekeeper & collector of books about: - bees and beekeeping - ants (yes these small little buggers!) - nature printing e-mail: hthomas@solid.phys.ethz.ch CompuServe: 100045,2556 Fax: ++41 1 633 10 77 ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:10:03 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS Subject: Re: Imker In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What is an Imker? >.......... >In German there are three words for beekeeper: >Imker, Bienenzuechter and Bienenvater. I believe the words are used in >different part in the German speaking countries. >No German speaking beekeeper in BEE-L to explain further? I will give it a try. Even though my native language is Swiss German I consider this close enough to answer the question. The word "Imker" usually refers to a normal beekeeper. "Bienenzuechter", however, refers to somebody that also rears honeybee queens. The word "Bienenvater" is an expression used in the old days and litterally means bee father. I would guess a nowadays politically incorrect term for a bekeeper! In order to balance the impression I must say that there is a beekeeping journal out by the name of "Bienenmuetterchen" which translates into bee mother or "The Motherly Beekeeper". Hope this answers the question. Best regards Hans ************************************************************** Hans-Ulrich THOMAS. Beekeeper & collector of books about: - bees and beekeeping - ants (yes these small little buggers!) - nature printing e-mail: hthomas@solid.phys.ethz.ch CompuServe: 100045,2556 Fax: ++41 1 633 10 77 ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:58:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Honey Pumps RW>I am building a new honey processing plant which requires a number of honey >pumps . >I would like to see some discussion on the list on what beekeepers in larger >operations have found to work well . RW>1. Cappings pump -which will not easily jam (with small broken peices of >comb frame), to pump more than 1.5 tonne / hr. >We wish to replace a 2 inch "Pender" 6 vane honey pump which pumps the >cappings from the uncapper and outflow from the extractors. It pumps through >a heat exchanger to a Cooke & Beale type centrifuge to separate the wax from >the honey. If the heat exchanger is the "flat pan" type you could use just about any pump. If it is an sealed unit with a header there is a danger in using the worm or positive flow pumps as they will pump the little frame nails through the hot water tubes and your honey will get thinner. The best pumps that I every used are no longer made so I won't mention them, other then to say in the US the small independent casting manufactures have disappeared along with some excellent tools such as a inexpensive honey pump that would pump small parts of bee frames, wire, and small nails. RW>2. General honey Pumping. >a)Has anybody had experience with rubber impeller pumps or pumps other than >gear. They are excellent for moving the honey and wax, work better if there is some method of mixing the wax with the honey. A lot depends on how you uncap the honey. If you use the minimum wax systems that just brakes the cap's pumping is no problem, but if you use the "slab" uncappers it can be more difficult. >b) We are currently using gear pumps but am interested to consider other >options. >It is important that the pump is airtight, so that air is not incorporated >into the honey and also reliable. This is always a problem with cold honey but can be reduced with preheating before pumping, but I would not worry about it until the last step in processing the honey which can be tanked up while still hot so the air can work out of the honey before drumming it up. RW>3. Variable speed pump. >A pump suitable for use in a variable speed mode, but able to pump honey at >a reasonably consistant speed even if the outlet pressure varies somewhat ie >pumping through an inline filter. Some of these will blow the pipes off the wall. RW>Even if this could just open up the subject of moving honey by any means >from A to B in the extracting / packing plant, - I look forward to your >responses The better systems at the producer level I have seen rely as much as they can on gravity with multi level extracting rooms. The less pumping and heating the best, both from the quality and cost view point. But all depends on your local industry and standards. Here in California honey is most all sold in the liquid form so we would have different standards then say an area that the majority of honey is sold in the natural hard condition or creamed. I would visit other food and honey processors to see what they are using, and expect to pay a arm or leg for these specialized pumps. ttul Andy- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "L'ENFUMOIR" is the tool the beekeeper uses to smoke bees ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:52:50 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS Subject: Re: Propolis and bee forage -- a correlation? In-Reply-To: <199611110905.KAA36546@power3.rz.uni-hohenheim.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Does anyone know whether and to what extent the composition of >propolis alters with different bee forage? Any sources of further >information would also be appreciated. > Andrew, If I remember correctly about ten years ago Mr Koenig from Celle did some research on propolis which he collected around the world. If you get in touch with Prof. Dustmann there I am sure he can help you further. Hope this helps Best regrads Hans ************************************************************** Hans-Ulrich THOMAS. Beekeeper & collector of books about: - bees and beekeeping - ants (yes these small little buggers!) - nature printing e-mail: hthomas@solid.phys.ethz.ch CompuServe: 100045,2556 Fax: ++41 1 633 10 77 ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:53:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Drone foundation? Drone Foundation is avalible thru Dadants only in Deep Frame size. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 18:44:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: BK-Economics I am trying to find a copy of a software program called BK Econmics. I think it was developed at the Tuscon Bee lab. If there is anyone that has any information on the program and where I might find a copy it would be appreciated. One other note I am running a IBM compatible computer. Thanks in advance Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 18:47:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Stevens Subject: Re: Drone foundation? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Drone Foundation is available in ten sheet packs from Betterbee Inc. 1-800-632-3379 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:48:58 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: BK-Economics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my name is Dean M. Breaux wrote: > > I am trying to find a copy of a software program called BK Econmics. I think it > was developed at the Tuscon Bee lab. If there is anyone that has any information > on the program and where I might find a copy it would be appreciated. One other > note I am running a IBM compatible computer. > > Thanks in advance > > Dean M. Breaux > Hybri-Bees Inc. Dean - The software is available at: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/gears/soft/index.html. As far as I know it is only available for Mac platform. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 22:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: Honey Pumps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ross Ward writes: >I am building a new honey processing plant which requires a number of honey >pumps . >1. Cappings pump -which will not easily jam (with small broken peices of >comb frame), to pump more than 1.5 tonne / hr. >We wish to replace a 2 inch "Pender" 6 vane honey pump which pumps the >cappings from the uncapper and outflow from the extractors. It pumps through a >heat exchanger to a Cooke & Beale type centrifuge to separate the wax from the >honey. I like the Moyno pump, which is a SS worm that twists in a rubber tube, called a stator. We use it to pump wax and honey through a Cook& Beals heat exchanger to warm up the honey before it goes through the spinner. Ideally, one should have a decent sized sump to catch larger loads of honey so the pump can run slower to deliver the honey to the wax spinner at a slow steady pace(less air is incorporated into the honey) Mann Lake(US bee supply house)carries another brand of this style pump that they claim is better- I think it was a Viking) BTW, drop a couple of big magnets to catch the nails coming off the extractors and uncapper to pick up nails *before* they get picked up and sent down the line to the heat exchanger and jam it up. Also keep skimming off the wood chunks. The pump will handle it but the heat exchanger won't like it. >a)Has anybody had experience with rubber impeller pumps or pumps other than >gear. I do use a rubber impeller pump to pump the honey out of the second sump tank in our system(the one that catches the honey from the was spinner and delivers it to our bulk tank). It is made by Tri-clover out of Wisconsin, I believe. It is quite expensive, over $2000, US. It is bullet-proof. It is a single speed pump with a motor that drive a gear reduction unit to drive the 2 rubber impellers. We also use a Viking vane pump to lift warm honey out of drums to strain and pack in bottles. It is slow but also bulletproof. In the past we have used the old gear pumps to pump clean honey out of sumps, but..... Beware of wood chips that will jam up the works! We are interested in the diaphram pumps and would be happy to hear of anyone using these to move warm honey. ****************************************************** * Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones (616)882-4456 * * BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones (616)882-7765 * * * * email b-man@aliens.com * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:19:16 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:49 PM 14/11/96 GMT, you wrote: >..... How strange that a hive designed >especially for third world, poverty stricken people should suddenly find >such favour in rich countries ... >I do not think it is a commercial proposition as far as bulk honey is concerned.. When Atholl Desmond (from Zimbabwe) told us about this hive on his recent visit, he pointed out that it was intended for the poor beekeeper who only wants a bit of honey for himself and cannot afford a modern langstroth. He added that Zimbabwe also has several commercial beekeepers. They all prefer langstoth hives. Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 01:40:22 +0000 Reply-To: berryfarm@earthlink.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Hassett Subject: Blossom Tours MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, I wrote: BTW, we also have a PYO strawberry farm. This past spring we conducted ou= r=20 first "Blossom Tour" for a local 3rd grade class. One of our "discovery"=20 stations focused on beekeeping. I was very happily surprised and encouraged by the kids' (and parents') interest and questions. We plan to offer our "K-3 Program" to more schools in the spring of '97. >>On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Rick Grossman from Oregon wrote: >>I am interested in your blossom tour. can you give me the details? Ho= w long, did it just take place at your place, what did you cover, etc. et= c.(more questions than I can think to ask). We have beehives, blueberry = plants just now old enough to be commercially harvested for the first yea= r come this summer, raspberry plants, etc. My wife loves to do show and t= ell of all the things outside, and your ideas would be a big help in maki= ng it a real program instead of just happenstance to the kids of friends. Sorry it=B9s taken so long to get back to you and the List. I=B9ve been h= aving=20 troubles with my Performa 6300CD locking up and crashing. Hopefully I wi= ll be=20 getting a new logic board by the end of November.=20 We live northwest (about 40 miles) of the =B3Twin Cites=B2 of St. Paul an= d=20 Minneapolis, Minnesota. The tour took place on May 21st, which in a norma= l=20 year would yielded a virtual sea of strawberry blossoms. But, due to the = late,=20 wet, and chilly spring, there wheren=B9t as many blossoms to see as in a = normal=20 year. The flowers finally did catch up later, although berry production w= as=20 way down. Our =B3Blossom Tour=B2, this last year, was divided up into 4 =B3discover= y stations=B2=20 which took about an hour and a half all total. Luckily we had perfect we= ather=20 for the occasion and the local newspaper took alot of nice pictures of th= e=20 kids (and PR for our berry operation!). Also, one of the neigbors shot so= me=20 video for us so that we can evaluate our talks for next year. The first=20 station the 150 kids visited was my oldest son=B9s (Nate, age 16) 4H Shee= p=20 project. Nate talked about the meat and wool breeds we have and about lam= bing.=20 We then asked the kids to help us feed. They where given handsful of hay = and=20 grain to feed thru the fence. Then we brought out several spring lambs fo= r the=20 kids to get up close and personal with. The second station was #2 son=B9s= =20 (Trent, age 14) 4H projects of rabbits and chickens. Again Trent said his= =20 thing and the kids got to pet the rabbits and handle the week old chicks.= The=20 third station was my beekeeping hobby. I stacked up bales of straw for a = back=20 drop and a wall to hold up two commercially produced posters. One poster = was=20 The Beekeeper=B9s Year and the second poster was The Life Cycle of the Ho= neybee=20 Family. I used them as a guide and/or notes if you will, to talk about wh= at I=20 do. Between those two posters sat a complete hive (no bees, 3 deeps for = brood=20 and stores, 3 mediums for honey). Again using these props made it very ea= sy to=20 talk about what I do with our bees. At the end I answered questions and l= et=20 them handle the hive pieces and other equipment. The last station the kid= s=20 experienced was the strawberry field (2 acres), irrigation equipment, and= =20 machinery. Again I tried to explain what we do and how we do it with pick= your=20 own strawberries. We let the kids climb on the tractors and took 2 volunt= eers=20 for a ride on the transpanting machine and show=B9d the group how we put = plants=20 in the ground. As the kids climbed back on the school buses to leave, we = gave=20 each person (parents and teachers also) a small plastic bag with some=20 strawberry flavered candy and a coupon (The Hassett=B9s Berry Farm- Berry= Buck).=20 The coupon reduced the price of their strawberries if they returned the e= nd of=20 June or the 1st week of July (our normal picking season). Next spring we will be changing some things and adding some things. Since= we=20 will be having more schools visiting we cannot rely on the weather to=20 cooperate. In case of bad weather we will use our farm shop and barns. Hm= mm,=20 come to think of it I wonder if I can make them all presentable by May!? = We=20 will divide up the kids into smaller groups and rotate the groups between= =20 stations. In their bag of treats will be some type of honey. My wife (Nan= cy)=20 and a friend of hers, want to talk and demonstate about spinning wool. Th= e=20 boys still want to do their 4H thing. I have moved my one hive of bees in= to=20 one of our buildings, which will become =B3The Bee and Honey Barn=B2. I = plan to=20 implement some ideas of see thru hives and flight tunnels so that visitor= s can=20 get close up and personal. Also I=B9ll have one or more, full working hiv= es in a=20 screened in area so I can put on a live demo. In addition, I can show vis= itors=20 how =B3we=B2 collect, store, use, and sell honey. I have alot of other id= eas=20 (thanks to BEE-List members) I=B9d like to implement but I think I better= focus=20 on getting those darn buildings presentable first! Hope this answered some of your questions. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR OPERATION! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:55:52 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GAVIN JOHNSTON Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: how do I Hi all. To simple questions? 1. My bee-l mail has suddenly been appearing in "digest " form . Could someone please tell me how to undo this "digest" format. 2. Someone posted a URL on the making of creamed honey. I have subsequently lost it, so if whoever it was (and any others) could please resend it, I would really appreciate it. thanks in advance. Gavin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 05:48:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ken Pine Subject: Re: (Fwd) virus alert (Not A Joke) Comments: To: Joe Hemmens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Per National Computer Security Association on the IRIANA virus - it falls into the same family as GOOD TIMES, i.e., it is a hoax. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: (Fwd) virus alert (Not A Joke) Author: Joe Hemmens at GRC_INET Date: 11/15/96 7:54 PM Hello Beekeepers Thought I'd pass on the following... >>>>> "There is a computer virus that is being sent across the >>>>> internet. If you receive an e-mail with a subject line of >>>>> "Irina", DO NOT read the message. Delete it immediately. >>>>> Some miscreant is sending people files under the name of >>>>> "Irinia". If you receive this file or e-mail, do not download >>>>> it. It has a virus that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating >>>>> anything on it. Please be careful and forward this e-mail to >>>>> anyone you care about." >>>> >>>> >> >>Eric Gist >>Technical Asst. >>Dept:Computer Services >>E-mail: ecg1@cornell.edu >>WebPage: 128.253.145.53/Eric >>IP:132.236.91.204 >>phone: (607) 254-6168 >>Fax: (607) 254-7166 >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:10:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Removing odours from pails In past years when I spent camped out in the "bush", we only had the old kerosine refrigerator to keep our meat and milk in. These sometimes ran out of kerosine or the flame was blown out and of course the food went "off" as the refrigerator was no longer working. The smell of rotting meat or old milk in the refrigerator was a very bad odour. To remove the odour, we used to put charcoal from our fire place in a billy (tin) in the refrigerator overnight. By morning the odour would be gone, soaked up by the charcoal (so we were told). It worked for us so maybe you can try it in your pails to remove the odours from the pails. I would be interested to know if it works as it used to work for us in the old kerosine refrigerators. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Bee Culture Its 16 November Did you get your issue of bee culture for November yet? Mine Has not arrived Called em up and left voice mail I guess thet don't chain them up to their desks anymore. E mailed em also without response. Never was terribly patient ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:38:17 -0500 Reply-To: James D Satterfield Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives Comments: To: Chris Allen In-Reply-To: <9611180319.AA15454@msp.masterpack.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Chris and others. A few thoughts... On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Chris Allen wrote: > > When Atholl Desmond (from Zimbabwe) told us about this hive on his recent visit, > he pointed out that it was intended for the poor beekeeper who only wants a bit > of honey for himself and cannot afford a modern langstroth. Though intended for poor beekeepers perhaps, the tbh works just as well for hobby beekeepers who enjoy simplified beekeeping that is educational and fun. It also produces honey for them and their neighbors. Many hobby beekeepers enjoy the challenge of using recyclable material to do their beekeeping, and the tbh certainly encourages that. > He added that Zimbabwe also has several commercial beekeepers. They all > prefer langstoth hives. This is understandable, though I haven't seen any good data on honey production in tbh's that are managed for maximum honey production. Langstroth hives undoubtedly provide many advantages for commercial beekeepers as well as hobby beekeepers. But there are also many disadvantages for hobby beekeepers in my opinion. I don't think that anyone with tbh's suggests that they be used for commercial honey production, supplanting modern langstroth operations. The mobile operations, etc. of many operations preclude that. If Wyatt Mangum's pollination service with Kenya TBH's is any sort of yardstick, then the tbh may offer some commercial potential for pollination contracts...if the growers wouldn't view the strange hives with too much suspicion. :) Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:09:39 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: how do I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > 1. My bee-l mail has suddenly been appearing in "digest " form . > Could someone please tell me how to undo this "digest" format. Go to http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~dicka/bee-l.html and try the features there Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:34:50 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Commercial Testing Labs. In-Reply-To: <199611101407.JAA04299@vixa.voyager.net> from "ICCI" at Nov 10, 96 09:07:46 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We test a variety of hive products and bees for a wide array of environmental chemicals that occur in beehives (both those normally found in hives such as terpenes from wood, bee metabolic products, etc.) and those "foreign" to most hives such as environmental pollutants and agri-chemicals. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana-Missoula jjbmail@selway.umt.edu P.S. My students also cut bees for tracheal mites - I supervise, they do the work as independent contractors, so there is no University overhead for this service. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:18:12 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Christian Maier-Ramnaes Subject: Re: Imker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hans, your explanation of the words Imker, Bienenzuechter and Bienenvater is totaly correct. The word Bienenvater is an old version of Imker and contens more frendly feelings for the bees as Bienenzuechter=beeproduction -- best regards from a german Bienenvater Christian Maier-Ramnaes ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:21:19 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Removing odours from pails Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To remove the odour, we used to put charcoal from our fire place in a billy >(tin) in the refrigerator overnight. By morning the odour would be gone, >soaked up by the charcoal (so we were told). I have not had to try this but it makes sense. Charcoal is used to absorb toxins in many situations. It is used as the filtering agent in gas masks for chemical warfare where it stops everything except CO2. When I was in the ambulance service, our first aid kits had packets of charcoal. If our patients had swallowed any toxins we were supposed to give them a dose of charcoal (never actually had one of these cases). For many of the toxic substances commonly available, the safety directions often quote charcoal as the best way to handle accidental ingestion. Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:46:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Reduced-size hive bodies Comments: cc: Jwg6@cornell.edu In a message dated 96-11-17 21:02:04 EST, you write: << m: jwg6@cornell.edu (Joel Govostes) To: HYBRIBEES@AOL.COM Hi Dean: There is a current thread on the BEE-L regarding equipment for less than ten frames, such as 5-fr or 8-fr sizes. Seems to me some photos in a bee magazine article about Hybri-Bees (years ago) showed some hives in the program there. They looked like 6 5/8" boxes stacked up, 5 or 6 high, but each chamber appeared only 5 or 6 frames wide. Do you know how these narrow or half-size hive bodies were being used, or to what advantage? I'd be interested -- was it just a good unit for raising queens or something? (if you have any background information on this for me, you can post the answer to the List) Thanks and best regards, [I'm sick of snow already...!] J. Govostes >> Joel, Your observations were correct we still use the five frame hives here at HBI. What they are is Five Frame 6 5/8" nucs. We use the nucs to raise and store Instrumentally Inseminated Queens. We also stack them up to five and six high to have the bees draw comb on flows and for winter stores. They are for Queen rearing and storage only as they are to small for much of anything else. There small size will not work for evaluation of stock etc. We run approximently 500 of the nucs and they perform well even in the hot summer months. The baby nucs will not work here after the first of April because the heat drives the bees out of the boxes. That was the reason for HBI using them in the first place. Dean M. Breaux Hybri-Bees Breeding Better Bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:48:26 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: CO2 Absorbant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In some earlier postings, it was suggested that a beekeeper breathe through a tube to keep the exhaled CO2 from attracting of aggravating more aggressive bees such as the AHB. It would be quite simple to design and build a gas mask that would use LiOH to absorb the CO2 on the exhale cycle. The material is used in oxygen rebreathers and medical equipment, and is supposed to be quite cheap. I think there may be other materails that could be used to absorb the CO2, but the LiOH does not produce dangerous gas when wet. Just a thought ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Removing odours from pails I like the charcoal idea as well I use a baking soda solution. Works well on pickle juice, has lots of uses and is cheap. regards, Harry Sweet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:07:29 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Commercial Testing Labs. You did not indicate what kind of testing you needed. Dr. Allan Brouse has a chemical analysis company in Maryland that has done extensive foor testing for adulteration. His work has been used in court to convict companies of adulterating orange and honey. He can be contacted at: Analytical Chemical Services of Columbia 9151 Rumsey Road, Ste 190 Columbia MD 21045 USA 410-730-7782, 410-730-8340 fax Regards, David Morris Laurel, MD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:39:57 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: CO2 Absorbant Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:48 PM 18/11/96 -0800, you wrote: >In some earlier postings, it was suggested that a beekeeper breathe through a tube to >keep the exhaled CO2 from attracting of aggravating more aggressive bees such as the >AHB. Before you get too worked up about this, talk to a few queen breeders about CO2. CO2 is used to drug virgin queens for artificial insemination. I believe CO2 is generally recognized as sedating most insects. One queen breeder said that for a ** REALLY SAVAGE ** colony, a squirt of CO2 from a soda siphon would settle them down. I have not tried this (never had the need to) but it suggests that CO2 does make the AHB savage. It may be just "bad breath". Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:46:38 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Cessac" Subject: Re: BK-Economics Comments: To: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" In-Reply-To: <961117184410_1585610930@emout02.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dean, have you looked at the Bee Economics that the American Association of Professional Apiculturists has? It run on IBM computer but needs EXCEL #4 to run. You can obtain more info at this email site mellis@unlinfo.unl.edu I was thinking of getting it but so not have advance copy of EXCEL yet. Bob Cessac K-B Ranch Natural Beef 2362 St. Rt. O Higbee, MO. 65257 816-248-5201 rcessac@mail.coin.missouri.edu On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, my name is Dean M. Breaux wrote: > I am trying to find a copy of a software program called BK Econmics. I think it > was developed at the Tuscon Bee lab. If there is anyone that has any information > on the program and where I might find a copy it would be appreciated. One other > note I am running a IBM compatible computer. > > Thanks in advance > > Dean M. Breaux > Hybri-Bees Inc. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:45:37 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My langstroths seem to work very well. I can manufacture >all my own equipt if neccesary. Is a TBH highly recommended? The top bar hive is an inexpensive system to get started. I can't imagine anyone abandoning their standard hives and switching to top bar hives. They are good for third world countries or someone wanting to start on a shoestring or someone who wants to experiment with something different. The comb may not get attached if the frames are inspected often but I suspect that one will have trouble removing a frame if they are left for a season in good honey flow. I believe that the less stress one gives a colony by opening the hive and taking out frames the better and the fewer queens one will lose. Listen to a hive often but open them seldom. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 22:19:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Bee Culture On 11/18/96 Thomas Cornick wrote >> Its 16 November Did you get your issue of bee culture for November yet? Mine Has not arrived Called em up and left voice mail I guess thet don't chain them up to their desks anymore. E mailed em also without response. Never was terribly patient<< I have been having the same problem with Bee Culture and the ABJ. It is not Bee Culture but the US Post Office. the people at Bee Culture have been very helpful in helping to solve this problem. What it finally took was a lot of Yelling and screaming at the regional Post Master> The Post Office (in spite of what it says) are just a bunch of government employees who are unable to work at real jobs. If you complain to them long enough they will get off their dead duffs and get you your magazines. Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm Brighton, TN USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Bee Culture In-Reply-To: <199611190319.WAA17234@mime3.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR. wrote: > On 11/18/96 Thomas Cornick wrote > >> > Its 16 November Did you get your issue of bee culture for November > yet? > Mine Has not arrived > Called em up and left voice mail I guess thet don't chain them up to > their > desks anymore. > E mailed em also without response. > > Never was terribly patient<< > > I have been having the same problem with Bee Culture and the ABJ. It > is not Bee Culture but the US Post Office. the people at Bee > Culture have been very helpful in helping to solve this problem. > What it finally took was a lot of Yelling and screaming at the > regional Post Master> The Post Office (in spite of what it says) are > just a bunch of government employees who are unable to work at real > jobs. If you complain to them long enough they will get off their > dead duffs and get you your magazines. > > Bill Hughes > Bent Holly Honey Farm > Brighton, TN USA > Sounds to me like government in Canada too. And our Canada Post is more expensive than that of the US. I will write about bees next time. Robert C.L. Watson rwatson1@freenet.npiec.on.ca pipe organ technician organist - choirmaster early woodwind player hobby beekeeper homebrewer tenor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:30:39 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: how do I On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:55:52 GMT+0200 GAVIN JOHNSTON writes: >Hi all. > >Two simple questions? > >1. My bee-l mail has suddenly been appearing in "digest " form . >Could someone please tell me how to undo this "digest" format. See Allen Dick's reply... >2. Someone posted a URL on the making of creamed honey. I have >subsequently lost it, so if whoever it was (and any others) could >please resend it, I would really appreciate it. Go to http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/krist_e.htm for P-O Gustavson's pages and the EKOBI creamed honey creaming procedure. P-O's other pages are as great. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:24:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dennis A. Meeks" Subject: Re: CO2 Absorbant Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:48 PM 11/18/96 -0800, you wrote: >In some earlier postings, it was suggested that a beekeeper breathe through a tube to >keep the exhaled CO2 from attracting of aggravating more aggressive bees such as the >AHB. > >It would be quite simple to design and build a gas mask (snip) > >Just a thought > Wondering if the rather inexpensive Israeli gas masks available would do the same thing for about nine bucks. Just another thought Den dameeks@noblecan.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dennis A. Meeks" Subject: Re: Bee Culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:19 PM 11/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >On 11/18/96 Thomas Cornick wrote >>> >Its 16 November Did you get your issue of bee culture for November >yet? >Mine Has not arrived >Called em up and left voice mail I guess thet don't chain them up to >their >desks anymore. >E mailed em also without response. > >Never was terribly patient<< > >I have been having the same problem with Bee Culture and the ABJ. It >is not Bee Culture but the US Post Office. (snip) The Post Office (in spite of what it says) are >just a bunch of government employees who are unable to work at real >jobs. If you complain to them long enough they will get off their >dead duffs and get you your magazines. > >Bill Hughes >Bent Holly Honey Farm >Brighton, TN USA > Careful Bill, This postal employee and beekeeper works very hard to see that mail leaves ontime....what happens after it leaves my hands is another story...but I think you owe an apology to those of us who work hard moving 5 billion pieces of mail a day. Yes, I get upset when my copy of Bee Culture comes with the cover half missing...but I also realize that my town begins with A which puts my copy on top of the bundle. Next time you smash a bee by accident, remember we all make mistakes! Den Dameeks@noblecan.org beekeeper and postal worker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:21:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kim Flottum Subject: Late Magazines, and why Hello, In defence of the Post Office, I must agree with the writer who has his magazine on the top of the pile, and had the cover damaged often - it is a common occurance. Also, because our readers are so spread out very often you are the only reader in a particular zip code, and your magazine is on the top of the pile - hence it gets damaged in transit, either because other mail gets tossed on it, or the material used to bundle it tears the cover. As far a delivery dates are concerned, we have little control over this problem. It goes, almost always, back to being the only reader in a particular zip code, and it just takes time. Also, some, I repeat some, rural carriers tend to bunch magazines into certain days for delivery and that, too, delays delivery. We try to get our magazine out to you on time, and it almost always works, but not always. And, the Post Office almost always gets it delivered on time. That's why we try and make each issue timely for the eintire month, rather than just the first part of the month. We have learned that no matter what any of us do, sometimes it just doesn't work, and, almost always, it gets there eventually. Better than not at all. If you are having trouble receiving your copy, please contact us and we will look into the matter. Sometimes it is the post office, sometimes the label falls off (soon to be corrected by ink jetted on the cover), and sometimes God gets involved. No matter what, we will get you another copy. You paid for it, and you'll get it. Thanks for being patient. Kim Flottum, Editor, Bee Culture ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:30:52 -0800 Reply-To: alwine@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Albert W Needham Subject: Re: Bee Culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Thomas) (Cornick) wrote: > > Its 16 November Did you get your issue of bee culture for November yet? > Mine Has not arrived Got my Nov Issue ok. Surpised that you don't get a return on your e-mail-never had any trouble with them myself. Al -- Al Needham * Scituate,MA,USA * Alwine@concentric.net >"The HoneyBee"-An Educational Software Program V1.0< Available at: Http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:59:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Re: Information Comments: To: Sid Pullinger Comments: cc: General questions In-Reply-To: <199611190744.HAA21850@post.interalpha.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sid..sending this to bee-l list.The National Honey Report is available from Washington stateDon't have the phone number handy. Tom Sanfor On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Sid Pullinger wrote: > <<<<>From someone who has read as far as this I would appreciate some > information. Years ago I had occasion to compile statistics on world honey > production, country by country. Most of this came from the USDA. Do they still > issue these figures and if so how can I obtain them? Sid P.>>>>> > Dear Mr Sanford, I put the above at the end of a letter to the B-list recently > and received one reply which turned out to be unsuccessful. Is it possible that > you could help? Thanking you in anticipation. > Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid > Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd > Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:48:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: HONEYNUTS to CHEERIOS This message was to APIS LIST MAIL but looked good enough to eat so here it is for you all to read....... the OLd Drone ---------------------------------------- Good Job, Dr. Sanford, and here is my normal cynical notes.. T> HELP SAVE THE HONEYBEE T> 1. Call the Help Save the Honeybee Hotline > (800/362-2006) and request a full information > packet, number two on your touch-tone phone. Good Luck, I called the day of the press release, Oct. 23, and have yet to receive any information, and no nothing other then what I read in the press release and some insider information that I have already passed along. > This is one way General Mills will be judging the > response to the program in order to make a > decision about continuing it past its expiration > date of January 31, 1997. I would like to see that in writing as I am a cynic. How many calls will it take? I will set my war dialer up and give it a try...With out the rules of this contest it is hard to say if it is even possible to win. Sometimes the devil hides in the details, such as the bee can only come from the $5 family size box and all these .89 cents bees I have been collecting will not count. If the beekeepers have to eat all 400,000 boxes of HONEYNUT CHEERIOS by Jan. 31, and I am on my 4th with the help of my cat whom I have concerns for his health, anyway thats about 40 boxes each per beekeeper if we could contact all of them and there were 10,000. Not that we should not try just to spite GM for this kind of cheep PR which will not fill the void in the honey industries bucket by the millions of pounds of honey GENERAL MILLS says they are not going to buy because they say "we raised the price to high, and honey is not an essential ingredient in their products.", or will it really make that much difference to bee research as 1/3 of $100,000, or much less as it looks today, is nice and would be appreciated I am sure, but it is not enough to do much more then outline a research project at todays rates. But then would it not serve a better purpose to just donate to bee science the cost of one large box of HONEYNUT CHEERIOS, that contains few nuts and little honey, and cut out the middle man, GM, and the US Postal Service, that will have a grater windfall then our scientific institutions. And more important leave the promotion of GM and its products to their own advertising budget and agency's. But then that would require the universities to have more then an out stretched hand and they would have to have a research project in mind that "would save the bees" and not just spend the money. I been thinking of filling my Christmas gift list with boxes of HONEYNUT CHEERIOS minus the cut off bee, but until I know the full effects on the health of my cat. I will wait to see if he recovers from this 4th box by Christmas, I am worried about his urinary health as the high priced cat food advertisements warn me to be concerned about that. I would never have known without them...about as enlightening to me as all the hemorrhoid or yeast infection commercials. T> 2. Contact local newspapers, especially those > that have run stories about bee losses, and get > them to publicize the campaign. But what if they asked about the bee losses? Should I lie and say it is that way here, or just say that is what others are saying? T> 3. Encourage association members, schools > and other groups to clip and collect the > caricatures for redemption. I guess if HONEYNUT CHEERIOS does not kill my cat it will be OK for the kids who are all going to die with brain cancer from drinking diet soda with aspartame anyway. T> The redemption address is Help Save the > Honeybee, I personally think companies like GENERAL MILLS is playing nothing more then the opportunist with this "save the bees" campaign and considering the millions and millions of dollars they have gained over the years by trading on the good name of HONEY to sell their over priced products could well afford if they were truly concerned the $100,000. with no strings, and no effort at all, or any loss to their company. They complain about the high cost of honey as they are forced by competition to reduce their own product prices 25%-50% as they have been ripping all us kids off for years. I don't want to appear to bee looking a gift horse in the mouth but I think that we should insist that GM pay the $100,000 if by Jan. 31, they have not received the 400,000 cut out bees just on the principal that they have been using HONEY to sell their products that contain little honey, (granted they buy lots of Honey, but in each box there may be more insect parts then honey anyway), and now they want to tread on the back of the beekeeper because some, under the cover of Bee Science, (BS), have already composed our obituary...."up the bees", "save" the Beekeepers from wasting their time and effort in promoting a product that may not even bee good cat food. But I must admit all I got to do is rattle the box and my cat will come down from the top of the telephone pole that the fire department wanted $75. to bring him down the 2nd time..and refused to leave the ladder truck in front of my house so I could do it. ttul, the OLd Drone We accept all cash donations! Sorry no bee cut outs. Andy Nachbaur, 1522 Paradise Lane Los Banos, Ca 93635 (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Santa on the Web <http://www.santamail.com> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:56:07 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GAVIN JOHNSTON Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: post office Just a thought! Does anyone ever commend the post office when the deliveries are on time? Especially considering the amount and how many people and post offices mail must pass through!! Gavin Johnston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:39:44 +0000 Reply-To: berryfarm@earthlink.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Hassett Subject: Ideas for Bee Talks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >On 1 Nov 1996 I wrote: >I would like to hear suggestions from other beekeepers on what to >"show and tell" during my 20 minute spiel. I would like to thank all the contributers to this thread for their time=20 and suggestions. I hope I captured the essence of peoples=B9 suggestions=20 accurately. If I missed someone or the point they where trying to make I=20 apologize. On 02 Nov 1996 Gerry and the other Visels wrote: I have gotten to the point that I use two props. One is the large=20 "study prints" from Dadants?, poster sized good quality pictures of the=20 queen, brood, bee on a flower with pollen, fanning, etc. The second=20 prop is an observation hive I work for a local forrest preserve. It is=20 always a hit! Having a marked queen helps. Kids love to get up close=20 in a non-threatening way. Mostly I just take questions, and let things=20 go where they will for the particular age group, with occasional=20 questions for the audience like "what products do bees give us?" (honey,=20 wax, propilis, pollen, mellons, almonds, apples,...) or "Who controls=20 the hive?" (the workers), etc. Often, I don't even get to do that, as=20 the kids just keep asking and asking. I take along a bear of honey for=20 the teacher to put on graham crackers or whatever when I leave, and I=20 always get a packet of thank you letters a couple of days later, which=20 are always cute. On 03 Nov 96 Ted Hooper wrote: There are two things which will always draw a crowd of non-beekeepers,=20 and beekeepers as well. These are the observation hive and a=20 'bee-tent'. The observation hive should be a single frame thick and two=20 to four frames high. If it is being used in a tent the entrance can be=20 piped through the wall, preferrably a wooden pipe but any sort is OK=20 providing the bees will walk on it - some synthetic rubbers they will=20 not tolerate. If it is being used in the open it must be out of the=20 sun, or have a canopy over it. The bees can be piped up to about seven=20 or eight feet to keep them clear of the onlookers. The bee tent we have=20 been using for years has no roof but is just a construction of canvas=20 seven feet high with six poles in sockets in the canvas to hold it up when guyed on all poles. The canvas is made so that there are six black=20 netting panels occupying most of the space between the poles. A colony=20 of bees can be placed inside the tent and the beekeeper open up and show=20 what is in the hive and how little trouble one has manipulating. Frames=20 can be taken out and the contents explained and if you can show them the=20 queen it makes their day. The audience will stand around the tent=20 looking through the netting without and fear of the bees. If you worry=20 that your bees may be a bit stroopy then move the hive in diring the day=20 and leave a box to collect the old bees who will be left behind. On 4 Nov 1996 Kelley Rosenlund wrote: I set up a booth at a local bookstore a few weeks ago that included an=20 empty hive, a super full of honey, block of wax, tools, smoker, etc and=20 a 1 frame observation hive. It was as fun for the crowds as it was for=20 me! Playing find the queen kept the kids busy. Folks enjoyed seeing what=20 was in those funny white boxes, I believe they were less afraid of bees=20 afterwards. (Also having a couple of honey bears and business cards is=20 free advertising) On or about 4 Nov 1996 Richard Barnes wrote to Kelly Rosenlund: For the Oklahoma State Fair, my son won first place, he had a larvae,=20 pupae and adult bees in isopropal alcohol. The pupae is difficult to=20 remove frome the cell so be careful. He also had 4 different types of=20 honey to show that honey is different colors depending on the nectar=20 source. He also had a pictoral display of robbing the hive showing him=20 in the full bee suit, using the smoker, etc. The pictoral display has=20 pictures of all the equipment and also close-up pics of brood and honey=20 frames. A pictoral display is good because you can leave it in a=20 businesses window or on a counter for general=20 display/education/advertising purposes. On 13 Nov 1996 Faith wrote: Unfortunately, you often have to listen to ten minutes of horror stories=20 of "bee stings" before they calm down and truly listen. I find that=20 letting children know how truly gentle most bees are is a big part of my=20 job. I often start out by saying "If a big giant pryed the roof off=20 your house and blew smoke inside, would you feel like biting him?" A=20 resounding yes is shouted. Then I ask and how about if you were sitting=20 in a nice patch of clover and a giant came along and stepped on you. =20 Would you sting him then too." Another yes. " Well," I say "about the=20 only time I get stung is if I'm banging about inside the bees house or=20 accidentally step on one or put in hand down on her." They usually nod=20 in quiet understanding. I also like to show them pictures of a bee=20 licking a drop of honey off my finger or, better yet, my nose. They are=20 fascinated. I also ask them what some of their favorite foods are. I can often=20 point out that some of those foods depend on bees for pollination and=20 that we might not be able to eat them without bees. This is an=20 important point to touch on for many kids think that honey is the only=20 important "by product" of a bee. Lastly, I would like to encourage other women beekeepers to get involved=20 in speaking to school and camp groups. I've had several teachers tell=20 me that, after my visit, many little girls comment that it was nice to=20 see a girl (how nice to be called that occasionally!) who isn't afraid=20 of bugs! I like to think I've encouraged them to be less afraid and=20 more curious themselves. Children's natural curiosity is a wonderful=20 thing. Exploit it! Thanks again folks for all the wonderful suggestions :) Bob Hassett Big Lake, Minnesota ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:57:14 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Reduced-size hive bodies In-Reply-To: <961118194627_1716116946@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "my name is Dean M. Breaux" at Nov 18, 96 07:46:27 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: We use hundreds of small four and five frame nucs for our research. They are approximately 9 7/8" high, 10 1/2" front to back, and 7 3/4 to 9 1/4" wide (depending on whether they are four or five frame units). We have used these in Seattle, Maryland, Montana, Idaho, and Washington. Climates range from wet and cool, to hot and dry. We start the units with about 1# of bees. Mid-summer, they are often 3 stories high, with an additional 1 or 2 supers pulled and stored for re-feeding in the winter. These units are far less expensive and can be more easily transported than full-size hives, yet for the most part, they perform more like full-size colonies than breeding nucs. The frames are standard Dadant deeps, cut to 1/2 length. We stockpile bees in standard deeps divided into four corners. So, we can setup new nucs easily. We also store wet frames in long boxes, where the frames sit cross-wise. Add a queen and a small population of workers, and they will keep out the robbers and wax moths. We first tried this approach in Seattle in the ealy 80's. We used small units because we thought that our testing might irreversibly contaminant full-size equipment. Disposal of full-size units is costly. These smaller units are more expendible. They worked so well, we now use them in all kinds of situations, including deserts. Some years ago, I found that we re-invented the wheel. Queen breeders in Alabama use a very similar system. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://grizzly,umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:11:22 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Just a Reminder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The Bee-l Logs are pretty well up-to-date- now at: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/ There is lots more there too. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:09:27 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: More is less - Honey Nut Cheerios MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Although I too hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, and I hate to bite the hand that feeds me Honey Nut Cheerios, I also must take General Mills to task over their "Save the Honeybee" campaign. At first glance, $100,000 donated to combat mites is a very generous offer. However, when I harken back to Accounting 211 (an introductory course which I admittedly squeaked out with a D), I remember how to do the books for "box top schemes" - and lets call a spade a spade here, this is nothing more than a quiet box top scheme. Assuming accrual accounting, a company initially writes off the full potential of their scheme ($100,000) and then, after the box top (or bee cut out) deadline, the difference between the pledged amount and the actual amount spent honoring the returned box tops is credited back to the books! In other words, General Mills gets $100,000 of publicity and then quietly adjusts their books in 1997 to reflect their actual donation, which will be somewhat less than $100,000. C'mon, how many boxes of Honey Nut Cheerios can we expect Andy and his constipated cat to eat!? Seriously folks, do the math. Examine the target consumer of Honey Nut Cheerios. Follow General Mills' lead on this one. Ask yourself, "When does General Mills advertise Honey Nut Cheerios?" SATURDAY MORNING!!! CARTOON TIME!!! How many beekeepers have even seen an ad for Honey Nut Cheerios (HNC)? The strength of numbers is not lost on me over this. Although I nearly failed accounting, I earned a degree in mathematics and I know that 400,000 bee cut outs equals $100,000. But I'll give dimes to donuts that the cut out bees mailed to General Mills will never amount to 400,000. If there were a sincere concern at General Mills over the plight of the honeybee there would have been more than a quiet press announcement of their "Save the Honeybee" campaign. Frankly, were it not for the Internet I would never even know about their generous offer. I have yet to receive anything from the Honet Nut Hotline, and I called right after Andy. And the rules of the game are that I must eat HNC! I HATE HNC! I admit that I am quite fond of plain unadulterated Cheerios, which I lavish with copious amounts of my own honey - no sugar, no brown sugar syrup, no nuttin' 'cept skim milk. But will General Mills honor a Cheerios box top? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! How 'bout a Wheaties box top? Surely the breakfast of champions eaters are concerned over the fate of honeybees, although the hate to ba called "Shirley". But again, NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! It must be HNC to get the quarter, nuttin' else! So OK, I'll bite the bullet and do my part, I'll get HNC - my dog will share the same fate as Andy's cat. Well surprise of all surprises, what did I find regarding the campaign on the box? NUTTIN'!!! I fail to see an honest concern over honeybees on the part of General Mills and see only a tricksters' scheme to claim a big contribution on paper for a small contribution at the bank. As a beekeeper I'm appalled at this poorly disguised campaign to get cheap publicity. Were there truly a sincere concern at General Mills, it would not be a box top scheme, it would be an out an out donation! Ok, let's let General Mills have their own way, they gotta sell them boxes. But take a Cheerios or Wheaties box top, don't force HNC on folks who don't want them! And ADVERTISE the offer. How 'bout a commercial where the HNC cartoon bee is being attacked by a vampire? Well, we don't want to be scaring the kids who are the primary consumers of HNC, so tone down the vampire into a softer cartoon, kind of like a smaller version of Count Chochula! "I vant to suck your hemolymph!". Rally the kids to cut out the honeybee, heighten the public awareness of the very real problem confronting honeybees! Perhaps this advertisement could be a joint effort between General Mills and the National Honey Board. But please, don't insult the beekeeping community by using a very real problem to promote cereal. Before signing off on this, I must remember my manners and thank General Mills for what will be a very real contribution towards bee research. Please take the above tirade as one would view the admonishing of a parent who tells a 'C' child that they should have gotten an 'A'. And keep them cut out bees comin'! Or as Andy suggests, send a third of the price of a box of HNC to each institution that stands to gain from the "Save the Honeybee" campaign. The Post Office will still get their cut and the institutions will gain more than they will from General Mills. Consider this suggestion as a counter campaign. "Help Save Andy's Cat!" Aaron Morris - thinkin' nuttin' honey! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:35:22 +0000 Reply-To: berryfarm@earthlink.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Hassett Subject: Re: Reduced-size hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do you prevent swarming in your reduced-size hives? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Sturman Subject: Beeswax in Gummy Bears Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everybody, I just got a call from someone asking me (as I am the only person they know who is interested in bees) why beeswax is an ingredient in gummy bears. I would guess for consistency and maybe the manufacturers are using honey as an ingredient. Does anyone know the answer to this? Also what other uses, besides the usual candles, etc., does beeswax have? Thanks. John Sturman Blue Moon Farm Lexington, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:45:03 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug McCulloch Subject: on feeding bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone remember a type of feeder that came out some years ago which was designed to spray syrup into empty comb. It seemed like a great idea but than suddenly it was gone and I've never heard of anyone using one. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:53:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Guns don't kill people- Postal workers do In a message dated 96-11-18 22:51:39 EST, you write: << is not Bee Culture but the US Post Office. the people at Bee Culture have been very helpful in helping to solve this problem. What it finally took was a lot of Yelling and screaming at the regional Post Master> The Post Office (in spite of what it says) are just a bunch of government employees who are unable to work at real jobs. If you complain to them long enough they will get off their dead duffs and get you your magazines. Bill Hughes >> Mine arrived yesterday in a manilla envelope from Bee Culture I know they paid extra postage for it to get here so quick after my impatient complaining . I fell asleep last night reading it. It's no wonder that when I ship something I use UPS Be nice if they could carry mail as the post office could use a bit of competition to get their act together. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:00:55 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sid, I think the information on world honey production, country by country can be obtained fron the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation; FAO Try: http://apps.fao.org/lim500/Agri_dbpl Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK At 09:59 19/11/96 -0500, you wrote: >Sid..sending this to bee-l list.The National Honey Report is available >from Washington stateDon't have the phone number handy. > > >Tom Sanfor > >On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Sid Pullinger wrote: > >> <<<<>From someone who has read as far as this I would appreciate some >> information. Years ago I had occasion to compile statistics on world honey >> production, country by country. Most of this came from the USDA. Do they >> still issue these figures and if so how can I obtain them? Sid >> P.>>>>> Dear Mr Sanford, I put the above at the end of a letter to the B-list >> recently and received one reply which turned out to be unsuccessful. Is it >> possible that you could help? Thanking you in anticipation. >> Sid P. >> _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger >> Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd >> Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Bee-plus REGARDING Bee-plus I would like to call the attention of all on the list to a very nice resource put out by Dr. Roger Hoopingarner of Michigan State University. For many years he has sent out Bee-plus to many in and beyond the state of Michigan. He is soon to retire, and has collected the entire series now available on the internet via http://www.ent.msu.edu/dept/bplus This was just called to mind because I want to set up candy boards for winter feeding this year. I've done this in the past, with excellent results, but forgot the recipe. Sure enough, I found it with no problem on Bee-plus. The entire series is indexed for easy reference. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:39:32 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Channell Subject: Wax moths In-Reply-To: <199611192045.NAA21464@cherokee.west-teq.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have been beekeeping for several years and recently had a bad attack of wax moths on my hives. So I have one question: how do I get rid of the moths? They have wiped out one of my hives and I fear they will take on the other soon. Is it a lost cause? Should I just start over with new bee swarms in the spring? Want the moths attack this new colony also? Need help in El Paso, Texas Tim Channell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:14:55 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Late Magazines, and why Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In defence of the Post Office, ..... I am editor of our association bulletin. I have learnt the printing hard copy editions and posting to members by snail-mail is expensive. Making copies available on the is much cheaper. There are several magazines the are produced exclusively on-line. The big beekeeping journals like the ones mentioned in this thread could follow the same path. It would be too early for them by be exclusively on line because many beekeepers would not have access to them. This would help overseas subscribers who invariably get there hard copy versions 3 or 4 months late. Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:06:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Honeynut Cherios Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On a follow up to the recent thread. Why is it that beekeepers are expected to work for nothing when General Mills wouldn't dream of it. At one of our local beekeeper meetings, I did a marketing survey to determine the price of honey at the farm gate. This being for small hobby beekeepers, not commercial guys. To buy a new hive with all the necessary equipment, buy a suit gloves etc. and ammortise the cost over a three year term. Pay yourself a wage per hour for approximately one hour per week, I felt we are worth twice minimum wage, the cost of honey in Canada should be $7 per pound. I sell mine for $18, but have not met anyone else who does, and no I am not joking. JOKE!! To get back to the General Mills, I think I have a better way of getting $100,000 for research, our lottery this week is $2,200,000 and if you all send me a dollar I will buy the tickets and if we win I will give $200,000 to research :-) and Andy's cat and Aaron's dog won't need to suffer any more. JOKE!! Regards Jean......... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:44:57 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: Re: CO2 Absorbant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that bees might use small concentrations of CO2 as an indicator of an animal intruder. Many other insects, such as mosquitos, black flies, and tsetse flies, actually locate their prey through their CO2 emissions, as well as colour and traps for these insects are based on that behavior. This might explain the effect between the tube breathing and AHB behavior. Chris Allen wrote: > > Before you get too worked up about this, talk to a few queen breeders about CO2. > > CO2 is used to drug virgin queens for artificial insemination. I believe > CO2 is generally recognized as sedating most insects. One queen breeder > said that for a ** REALLY SAVAGE ** colony, a squirt of CO2 from a soda > siphon would settle them down. > > Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Bear damage In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961115214634.00a5483c@postoffice4.mail.cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Would anyone out there willing to donate some high quality color photographs of > bear damage to honey bee hives for an extension publication please contact me at > nwc4@cornell.edu. Thank you. > > Nick Calderone > Dept. Entomology > Cornell University > nwc4@cornell.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:54:48 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Daniel D Dempsey Subject: Re: post office On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:56:07 GMT+0200 GAVIN JOHNSTON writes: >Just a thought! > >Does anyone ever commend the post office when the deliveries are on >time? > >Especially considering the amount and how many people and post >offices mail must pass through!! Who do you deal with 6 days a week and don't get upset with sometimes? Dan Dempsey BeeKeeper and Letter Carrier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:08:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Wax moths In a message dated 96-11-19 16:45:22 EST, you write: >I have been beekeeping for several years and recently had a bad attack of >wax moths on my hives. So I have one question: how do I get rid of the >moths? They have wiped out one of my hives and I fear they will take on >the other soon. Is it a lost cause? Should I just start over with new >bee swarms in the spring? Want the moths attack this new colony also? > >Need help in El Paso, Texas > >Tim Channell Greetings BEE-L people! As far as I'm aware a strong colony will keep moths at bay. I would also recommend covering all vent holes with window screen and closing down the entrance to about 10 cm. I stack my stored equipment and cover it with a top board in my garage. One pack of para di chlorobenzene (moth balls) at the bottom and one at the top. My major problem with moths is in the comb supers with the basswood boxes and in the Ross Rounds. Too many nooks & crannies for those moths to find shelter. I'm switching to 5 11/16" supers for comb honey next year. Look for webs, small white clusters of moth eggs ( they almost look like mold ) and burrows in wooden parts. Trash all questionable honey. They actually favor brood comb but are found in areas less protected by bees. Freezing kills them. Check your hives for mites, foulbrood, queenlessness etc. According to "ABC's" they prefer dark comb. They're worse than ants - almost. regards, Harry Sweet N. California ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:41:39 +1100 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Nat Beekeepers Assn of NZ Subject: Re: on feeding bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Does anyone remember a type of feeder that came out some years ago which was > designed to spray syrup into empty comb. It seemed like a great idea but than > suddenly it was gone and I've never heard of anyone using one. One guy here rigged up an old wringer washing machine to mix the sugar and water, then used the pump through a nozzle to fill old combs. But I think he came unstuck through spreading AFB, as the syrup ran out and off all the combs and back into the reservoir. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:06:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Re: Bee Culture On 11/19/96 Dennis Meeks Wrote >>Careful Bill, This postal employee and beekeeper works very hard to see that mail leaves on time....what happens after it leaves my hands is another story... but I think you owe an apology to those of us who work hard moving 5 billion pieces of mail a day. Yes, I get upset when my copy of Bee Culture comes with the cover half missing...but I also realize that my town begins with A which puts my copy on top of the bundle. Next time you smash a bee by accident, remember we all make mistakes! Den Dameeks@noblecan.org beekeeper and postal worker << Den, My local Post Office have a very dedicated staff. When ever I have packages or queens arrive they call me first thing. My experience with them has been wonderful and I was in error not pointing this out in my original message. However the regional center in Memphis is a different story. For over a year and a half my issue of Bee Culture was late. Not by a few days but weeks. eg the Nov issue would arrive the first week in December. When ever I called them to complain they would act like they were doing me a big favor. The main reason they finally did something is they are trying to get the laws changed so they can supposedly compete against Fed EX and UPS. So I did the all American thing and called both Senators offices from my state and like a miracle the jerks at the regional center solved my problem. Isn't that amazing!!! You seem to a dedicated Postal worker and if I offended you I am sorry. Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm Brighton, TN USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:29:01 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tim Channell wrote - > I have been beekeeping for several years and recently had a bad attack of > wax moths on my hives. So I have one question: how do I get rid of the > moths? They have wiped out one of my hives and I fear they will take on > the other soon. Is it a lost cause? Should I just start over with new > bee swarms in the spring? Want the moths attack this new colony also? Don't know if you can get a similar product from your bee suppliers, but in the UK a product called 'Certan' is available. This is a 'biological' control based on a fungus called Bucillus Thuringiensis. The wm larvae eat the fungus and it kills them. It is supposedly harmless to bees and humans. The product is diluted with water and sprayed onto combs and hive parts. The makers say that it is suitable for use on occupied brood combs as long as brood is not likely to be chilled. I have used it and found it to be 100% effective. Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Late Magazines, and why In-Reply-To: <9611192314.AA60382@msp.masterpack.com.au> from "Chris Allen" at Nov 20, 96 09:14:55 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, some of this material is on line - at least for Bee Culture. However, I suspect that the journals are not anxious to go on-line. After all, why would you buy the journal if you could read and print it from a Web Page? Some Web Pages are supported by Advertisements, and some sites charge an access fee - you pay for a password), so this problem is resolvable. However, until the Web and its access speeds up considerably, how long would it take to access an entire copy of Bee Culture or ABJ? Also, you certainly wouldn't browse it in your favorite easy chair - even if you do have a notebook computer linked to the Web. It is my understanding that Corporate Sponsors of Web sites have yet to prove that it increases sales - most do it to maintain some presence in an emerging media (but what they actually gain is still in question). Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana Missoula, MT 59812-1002 jjbmail@selwlay.umt.edu http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:19:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Comments: To: "Bob St. John" In-Reply-To: <199611190345.RAA12073@isis.interpac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Bob and others. A few comments: On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Bob St. John wrote: > The top bar hive is an inexpensive system to get started. I can't imagine > anyone abandoning their standard hives and switching to top bar hives. I did. But I'm only a sideliner with 25 colonies. Sold my "Langstroth" stuff to a fellow beekeeper in the county beeclub and...I'll never go back to conventional hives; however, I don't think that commercial beekeepers whose aim is to produce tons of honey and make money will find tbh's of much interest. > They are good for third world countries or someone wanting to start on a > shoestring or someone who wants to experiment with something different. Yes, correct on all three counts in my opinion. > The comb may not get attached if the frames are inspected often but I suspect > that one will have trouble removing a frame if they are left for a season in > good honey flow. Nope, even in my "Modified Tanzanian TBH's" I only find moderate comb attachment during heavy honey flows. Besides it's no problem. I use a thin hive tool I've made from a 12" shelf bracket to cut it loose. I've even taken a camp stove, heated a pot of water, and heated my hive tool to see if it makes it easier. Doesn't help that much, and it does get melted wax on a bee occasionally...but it's nice to have a clean hive tool also. With no stove, I just push the tool into the ground and clean it off. If I have any cross-bridging of comb on my surplus bars, or if a comb breaks while getting it out of the hive...no problem. Brush the bees off, dump it into the pail, then eventually press all of the honey out, wash the pressed comb off, then...into the solar melter. Any problem with a comb????....into the solar melter! > I believe that the less stress one gives a colony by opening the hive and > taking out frames the better and the fewer queens one will lose. Listen to > a hive often but open them seldom. Yes, and I think working a tbh is far less stressful than a conventional hive...less stressful on the bees *and* me. But I think there's an exception to the last statement. A beginning beekeeper should listen to the hive, watch the bees, and open the hive very, very often in my opinion. Sure he/she may get less honey, but it's the learning that comes with doing that is so important in the first few years...or with me, over my lifetime. Bob, I enjoy your posts. Best wishes to you and all on BEE-L. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Palm, Kevin R. (LLP)" Subject: Getting started with TBH's Folks, All this discussion about Top Bar Hives has me fascinated and wanting to try one next year just for fun. I don't recall seeing it on the list, or maybe I'm just not observant, but how does one get a colony started in a TBH?? Can you start with a package and put them in the same way as with a Langstroth, or make a split from an existing Langstroth colony, or is there a special way of doing it?? I'm really anxious to try this, so any responses would be greatly appreciated!! Sincerely, Kevin Palm Grafton, Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:10:27 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, James D Satterfield wrote: >Nope, even in my "Modified Tanzanian TBH's" I only find moderate comb >attachment during heavy honey flows. Besides it's no problem. Thanks for the comments. One thought occurred to me. Most of my experience was with causcasian bees. Is it possible that you are keeping Italians? I am sure they are less likely to fill in spaces with wax and propolis. Our caucasians abhorred a space. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:13:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Wax moths REGARDING RE>Wax moths Tim Channell wrote: >I have been beekeeping for several years and recently had a bad attack of wax moths on my hives. So I have one question: how do I get rid of the moths? They have wiped out one of my hives and I fear they will take on the other soon. Is it a lost cause? Should I just start over with new bee swarms in the spring? Want the moths attack this new colony also?< Generally, a large infiltration of wax moths is a sign that the colony itself is in serious trouble. Wax moths cannot gain a foothold in a healthy colony, even though maybe one or two larvae may be able to hide away in a crack somewhere. A hopelessly queenless hive will be subject to such a wax moth invasion, as will one dying of AFB or varroa mites (or diseases spread by them). As been has suggested, freezing weather will kill off wax moths - so will putting the frames in a freezer for overnight or so. As has also been suggested, Certan will kill these larvae and PDB crystals will keep the moths out of stored combs. But none of these remedies can be used with a living colony. I suggest that you carefully inspect your colonies to find out what else is going on, remedy that, and you can build your colonies up again without fear of wax moth damage. Teed Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:44:09 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: The Christensens Subject: Power comb filler, computer beekeeping. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nick Wallingford; I have a commercially built power comb filler. What particularly did you want to know about it? We used ours for a few seasons to set up hives for packages or nucs when we did not have extra brood combs with food stores to use. It worked really well for that particular use. Since then we have had enough combs for what nucs we were starting so it sits in the back corner until we need it again. It was not overly expensive so we keep it just in case. I would not recommend it for regular feeding of hives with bees. Although it has wheels and is reasonably portable, it is some what cumbersome to use in the field. It works very well if you can bring the combs to it for filling. The unit consists of a reservoir, a pump, a small gasoline engine, and two spray bars. You slowly lower the combs between the spray bars and it fills them very nicely with syrup. We used a small tub to set the frames over for a couple of minutes to allow the excess syrup to drip off and then drop them in the supers. If you want any other information just holler. Now I have a question? Are there any commercial beekeepers that are using their computers for recording their feild work, and keeping yard records. If so I would be interested in any information you would care to share in this area. I stumbled on to a cheap lap top and am trying to set up to use it for keeping track of things. Any experience with this sort of thing would be greatly appreciated. Leon Christensen, Rocky Mountain House, Alberta. leonc@ccinet.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:55:18 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Ache Analysis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi: I need to find someone who can conduct Ache inhibition assays on honey bee brain or ganglion tissues. EPA used to use this assay as evidence of exposure to organo-phosphate pesticides - the methods are worked out. Need someone who routinely does this type of assay on insect tissues. Our samples would arrive next spring/summer/fall - small lots. Thanks Jerry J. Bromenshenk The University of Montana Missoula, MT 59812-1002 406-243-5648 jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:51:09 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ing. Gaivironsky" Subject: IFOAM'98 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Bee-L: I wish to share with you the next information. Please, be free to send it to other mailing lists. Thanks Lidia Gaivironsky Education Committee - MAPO MAPO - MOVIMIENTO ARGENTINO PARA LA PRODUCCION ORGANICA XII Conferencia Cientifica Internacional IFOAM' 98 "Credibilidad de la Agricultura Organica para el siglo XXI, Buenos Aires, Noviembre 1998. Buenos Aires, november 1st, 1996. Dear friend: Next IFOAM XII International Scientific Conference and 2nd. Organic Exhibition will take place at Buenos Aires, Argentina, from 15 to 19 November 1998. We hope you'll be interested in visiting us and in presenting your papers or posters. Here you have the main subjects: I) PHILOSOPHY AND POLITICS: .Cultural and Social Aspects. .Education, Extension and Transferences. .Political Aspects. II) TECHNOLOGY GENERATION: .Intensive and Extensive Production Systems. .Support and Recovering of Natural Resources. .Proccesing and Quality of Food and Fiber. III) GUARANTEES: .International Standards and Regulations. Harmonization. .Certification, Accreditation and Inspection. IV) ECONOMY AND TRADE: .Transparency and Ethics in Markets. Fair Trade. .Worldwide Markets. Perspectives. .Consumer Role. .Economics and Environmental Costs. Externalities. We'll let you know further information about inscription fees, manuscripts and murals soon. Those will be received up to the end of February 1998. Dr. Guillermo Schnitman President Address: R.S. Pena 1110, 5 piso, of. 5 1035)Capital Federal - Republica Argentina Phone/fax: (54-1) 382 3221 e.mail (provisional): gaivi@overnet.com.ar Lidia Gaivironsky gaivi@overnet.com.ar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:26:49 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: bee suppliers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all - I am wanting to compile a list of bee suppliers to have available on my web site. I am asking anyone to send me an email of any suppliers you have used and were happy with. Please include full name, address and phone. Also what strain of bees they sell. I will include suppliers outside of the U.S. too. Thanks. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Getting started with TBH's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have only stocked them by hiving actual swarms, but others have used package-bees. Swarms are hard to come by, so other methods would be useful. You could even start with three or four frames of brood and bees, from a strong colony, set in on the end close to the entrance. This presumes that the hive will accomodate standard frames. The remainder of the space would be covered with regular tbh bars. Then you'd cover the spaces between the frames somehow, with a "quilt" or similar covering. Another possibility would to make a big funnel, such as the package bee producers use. Shake several frames'-worth of bees into a box or cage (about equivalent to a 3-lb package). They don't have to all be from the same hive. This is a good deterrent to swarming in the "source" hives. Seal up the cage, and set the bees in a cool dark place for a day or so. Then hive them in the tbhive like a package, furnishing a caged queen, as usual. The bees will need sugar syrup, so you should feed them heavily until they have a large thriving nest established. You can get information on feeding methods from Mr. Satterfield. (He has installed pacakages and developed methods of feeding in such hives.) I have had best results with a starter-strip of brood foundation on each bar, about 1" top to bottom. Then the bees have almost no choice but to stick to those guide-strips. The other comb-guide methods may work just as well. The swarm or package bees will cluster immediately from the top bars and draw the first few combs over the first week or so, fastest if they are provided with sugar syrup. Basically it's the same as is advised for hiving in a frame hive. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:27:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Getting started with TBH's Comments: To: "Palm, Kevin R. (LLP)" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kevin, and others who are reading this thread, Joel made a good response to this posting. I'll add a few comments of my own for anyone who may be interested. On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Palm, Kevin R. (LLP) wrote: > > All this discussion about Top Bar Hives has me fascinated and wanting to > try one next year just for fun. I don't recall seeing it on the list, > or maybe I'm just not observant, but how does one get a colony started > in a TBH?? Can you start with a package and put them in the same way as > with a Langstroth, or make a split from an existing Langstroth colony, > or is there a special way of doing it?? You can brush the bees off the frames of brood comb from an established hive, cut the combs out of the frame, and tie them to top bars. You need to put some paper, window screening, or something at the bottom of the comb to prevent the cord from cutting into the combs. In the tropics or elsewhere, leaves have been used to prevent cutting. Bees will anchor the comb to the bar in a week. If you are removing bees and comb from a tree or a building, then those combs can be tied to bars also. You might like to simply turn a super upside down, put top bars on it, and let the bees draw out some comb which can then be transferred to a tbh. This makes hiving a swarm or starting package bees much easier for they will have comb surface area to spread out on. Gives them a jump start. I have mixed top bars and standard frames in a conventional brood chamber and gotten comb drawn...BUT...that requires a tb to be shorter than I like, and it results in the bar falling inside the hive body occasionally. That can be frustrating. So...I make my tb's long enough to come out even with the sides of a super or brood chamber. You can still use regular frames during transition. Just turn your brood chamber upside down, put your frames back in with the frames resting on the edge along with tb's. Try interspersing tb's and you'll get good combs drawn during a good honeyflow. Gaps at the top between tb's and frames? Cover with duct tape, cardboard and tape, cloth, or whatever you have at hand. I'll bet that banana leaves would be good. After the combs are drawn out on the tb's, there may be some attachment to the sides, especially near the top. No problem. Tilt the brood chamber on end so that the combs are in the vertical plane, and use the hive tool to break the attachments loose...set the brood chamber down, and lever the tb's off. Since they aren't down in a rebate, they don't have to be pried up and out. After you have your bees established in your tbh, you may find it desirable to feed them. All you need to do is take some jars of any type that will fit down inside the hive...I use quart jars or old instant coffee jars...punch holes in the lid, fill with syrup, and invert on two small pieces of wood thick enough to let the bees get under to the holes. Baggie feeders can be laid on the floor of the hive. All of the principles of beekeeping that you are presently using will apply to your tbh...it isn't anything astonishing or new...just imagine three conventional brood chamber nailed together horizontally with the partitioning walls separating them removed. Rather than frames, 30 bars resting on top, half inch of foundation on each bar for a start. Holes in one end--I have around 7 one-inch holes-- or along the sides. A bottom nailed on. Some type of cover to shield the bars from rain and heat. That's it. That's all it is... A tbh is nothing but a long box made from whatever you can get your hands on. The bees don't care. I wouldn't use treated lumber. Now the problem is to manage the colony for best production. You may have to watch for the colony becoming honeybound, may need to spread the brood to get a better build...but watch for queens who naturally work laterally and select those in your queen rearing. Get a capped comb in place at the beginning of your surplus area in the hive so that you have a honey barrier to help stop the queen. But if the queen gets into your surplus area and lays brood, no problem...just cut that section out when you get ready to harvest your honey. Kevin, I hope that my comments are helpful. These are some of my experiences, but I'm far from being an authority on any aspect of beekeeping. I just enjoy tbh's. Bet you will too. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:34:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives (TBHs) Comments: To: "Bob St. John" In-Reply-To: <199611201710.HAA03593@isis.interpac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Bob St. John wrote: > On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, James D Satterfield wrote: > > >Nope, even in my "Modified Tanzanian TBH's" I only find moderate comb > >attachment during heavy honey flows. Besides it's no problem. > > Thanks for the comments. One thought occurred to me. Most of my experience was > with causcasian bees. Is it possible that you are keeping Italians? I am sure > they are less likely to fill in spaces with wax and propolis. Our caucasians > abhorred a space. Bob, and others, I am keeping Italians but I am anxious to try Caucasians next year. I understand that they are naturally inclined to spread the brood laterally. As far as filling in spaces with wax and propolis...it's just more wax for the melter if the wax isn't where I want it, and more propolis for my friends who perceive varied and sundry benefits from propolis used in tinctures, etc. I would greatly appreciate any advice any of you can give me on Caucasians, what I should expect from them. You may wish to address me directly in the event that such a thread would not be of general interest. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:35:14 GMT Reply-To: phoenix@aug.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stanton A Hershman Organization: Phoenix Subject: Re: post office In-Reply-To: <26197B80FBC@warthog.ru.ac.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:56:07 GMT+0200, you expounded on something about: >Just a thought! > >Does anyone ever commend the post office when the deliveries are on >time? was thinking about it, but have yet to see they perform on time. can't = even get certified mail delivered properly with the required signature. = definitely can't seem to get mail into canada. > >Especially considering the amount and how many people and post >offices mail must pass through!! = =20 =20 phoenix@aug.com WEBPAGE: userpages.aug.com/phoenix =20 MADNESS TAKES ITS TOLL. PLEASE HAVE EXACT CHANGE.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcia Sinclair Subject: Re: Guns don't kill people- Postal workers do Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I empathize with those who expect a publication delivered as scheduled and are annoyed when it doesn't arrive. However, imperfect as it may be, the US Postal Service has a nearly impossible task--to deliver mail to every address in the country every day. I worked as a letter carrier for a while and I gained enormous respect for the army in blue that fights heat, ice, hills,dogs and illegible addresses every day. It is a demanding job, with a poor public image. I worked with carriers who take very seriously their position as public servant. They strive for excellent customer service and even act as guardians of neighborhoods on their routes, watching out for children and elders. Because a lengthy and complex chain of events results in delivery of your publication, many things can delay its arrival. I have always found that I get excellent service from my carrier when I treat him or her with respect and as a professional. I wonder how our system compares with postal systems around the world. At 03:53 PM 11/19/96 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-11-18 22:51:39 EST, you write: > ><< > is not Bee Culture but the US Post Office. the people at Bee > Culture have been very helpful in helping to solve this problem. > What it finally took was a lot of Yelling and screaming at the > regional Post Master> The Post Office (in spite of what it says) are > just a bunch of government employees who are unable to work at real > jobs. If you complain to them long enough they will get off their > dead duffs and get you your magazines. > > Bill Hughes >> > >Mine arrived yesterday in a manilla envelope from Bee Culture I know they >paid extra postage for it to get here so quick after my impatient complaining . I >fell asleep last night reading it. It's no wonder that when I ship something I >use UPS Be nice if they could carry mail as the post office could use a bit of >competition to get their act together. > >Tom > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David J Trickett Subject: Results using oils MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Well, it looks like the cold weather is finally here to stay (in Philadelphia). Last Sunday it was warm enough from mid-morning to mid-afternoon to allow me to make a final winterizing check. I'm pleased to report that though I've lost a couple of hives to foulbrood (yes, I was not using TM as a preventative but am re-evaluating this strategy, though I don't plan to use it for prolonged periods if I do use it). I have seen *no* mites or signs of mites. Nor does the oil (spearmint, applied per Dr. Amrine's specification's) seem to be causing any problems for the bees. I used 1 gallon glass jugs, suspended by wire harness or duct-taped furring strip (nailed via a single finishing nail) to the 2nd hive body so that the jug's perforated top was about flush with the entrance. The only problem with entrance feeding was from yellow jackets in some locations (I have three small yards and scattered single hives in community gardens). I solved this problem by feeding the yellow jackets too. (Seriously - they get their own feeder placed a little away from the hives. THey seemed to prefer this over risking getting jumped by the guard bees at the entrance-adjacent feeders, and I prefer the resulting reduced bee mortality and hive agressiveness). So, I don't know what this means in terms of the effectiveness of oils or others' reported losses using wintergreen (my sincere regrets!), but it at least didn't seem to do any damage. Incidentally, I interrupted feeding while introducing new queens to a couple of queenless hives in September; things seem fine with these hives now. It is important for me to note that even before initiating this treatment, my incidence of observed mites was very, very low. And it wasn't because I wasn't looking. Many a drone never made it past metamorphosis - I was checking capped drones, mature drones, and bottom boards. Before treatment I saw perhaps 10 mites in 20 hives. All season. Total. After treatment I've seen no mites at all. For that matter the fact that the hives have made it this far into November and looked healthy is a vastly different state of affairs from that existing a year ago. - Dave T.