Received: from relay.internode.net (relay.internode.net [198.161.228.50]) by sysx.internode.net (NTMail 3.02.12) with ESMTP id allend for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:57:39 -0700 Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id ACFA2F60140; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:38:18 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7274; Wed, 29 Jan 97 11:50:45 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 7286; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:50:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:50:36 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8c)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9612B" To: "W. Allen Dick" Resent-From: Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 09:39:13 EST Resent-To: allend@mail1.internode.net Message-Id: <16573936903471@systronix.net> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 05:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Those Oz lids Joel asks about those lids in Oz. As one who uses them, I suppose when I think about why I use them it is a little bit of why those fellows fiddle on the roof - tradition. The main reasons for using them and not telescopics is that I use lifting cleats on the ends of my boxes at the top. This makes for easier working of hives. I can use the loader on the truck to undersuper with empty boxes and take the full boxes off the hive. The cleats do not allow for telepscopic parts on the ends. When it comes to telescoping on the sides, if I did this I would only be able to fit 5 hives across the body of my truck. By using a flush lid it allows me to fit 6 hives across the truck. The tradition bit probably comes from the older days when hives were shut up to shift them compared to open entrance shifting nowadays. You needed holes in the lid, covered with gauze, to allow the hot air to escape or the bees would sufficate. This Oz lid is called a migratory lid as compared to the telescopic lid. There has been research carried out in Australia that shows on the high humidity coastal areas, the bees actually use those ventilated holes to help "cure" the honey. In the drier inland ares, the ventilated holes can be a problem as they allow moist air out. Beekeepers who take their hives to these drier areas often have a flat lid. Yes, in a honey flow the bees will build burr comb in the top but that is usually because I haven't kept up with the hives. There is often an inner cover put on top of the frames in the lid which allows the bees to go around the outside but limits the burr comb. Anyway, these are some of the reasons why some beekeepers in Oz use those lids. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:13:15 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Roof Cover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Why do the Australians use covers > > with the same outside dimensions as the hive bodies, a couple of inches > > deep, and which do not telescope down on the edges? I've seen that they > > lay a mat over the frames, and set the lid on top. It typically has > > ventilation holes, too.Yet it doesn't appear that the lid is fixed or > > anchored to the hive. Don't they just blow off? Or get knocked off? Do > > they get all clogged up with comb during a honey flow? > > > > (The simple migratory (board) lids used here -by some- usually telescope a > > tiny bit front and back. This doesn't waste much space on a truck, as the > > bottom boards also jut out a bit from the hive front.) > My guess is that the main factors are (1) wind (2) rain and (3) > migration? Here in NZ, most areas of the country probably have more > wind than Oz (maybe?). At any rate, as well as a telescoping lid > (often with quite deep sides) the hives almost always have bloody > great rocks on top of them! 'Older' hives often have mats (cut > pieces of sacking, which get utterly matted and propolised to the > frame tops, requiring a ripping loose each time!) Perhaps our experience here may interest the list... Over the years, we've used many different styles, including going over to the migratory style floors and lids for a while. We tried to minimize the hive parts because we reckoned that when we added it up, that we spent 2 man weeks a year just putting inner covers on and off. So we eliminated them. We found that migratory lids actually blow off *less*, since the wind has less to grab, but there are other drawbacks. Specifically, in wet years, water runs over the side edge of the lid and actually follows the lid into the hive a ways before dropping down -- often into the frame feeder. This causes fermentation and other problems as well as a damp hive. If the hive is tilted back at all and the floor is watertight (sloppy construction in floors actually pays off) this adds to problems. Migratory lids are also subject to warping. We decide that the difference in space used on modern trucks by hives with telescoping lids is not important, since weight is usually the limiting factor. So we went back to telescoping lids. > Now, there is a 'magic number' for the lid overhang which can make > it almost impossible for the wind alone to blow the lid off. With > narrow overhang, the lid can readily get swept off. But make it a > bit more and the lid must come up from both ends (it can't just be > lifted from one end or edge. Has to do with the triangle formed by > the lid internal length and the depth of the overhang. We have come to the conclusion that what removes lids is not straight on wind so much as gusts and little twisters that travel with some winds. Recently, a fellow in Southern Alberta sold me several hundred beautiful metal-topped telescoping lids for a few dollars each, telling me he was going over exclusively to a deeper rim (4"?). His pilot tests had shown they stayed on in S. Alberta which is famous for its winds. This spring he reported that he had wound up chasing some of the new style too, so I guess it didn't solve the problem either. Back to boulders on top. Some years are more windy or rainy than others, so several years of tests are needed to see if new lid designs work really well. Using plastic sheets under migratory lids sheds water and keeps ladder comb from being a problem, but the sheets are difficult to handle if there is a breeze. Sacks are often used and work well, but they need to be folded and refolded, crease easily, and are eventually propolised and chewed by the bees. They can also mold during wintering. Some fellows here use pieces of carpet -- canvas side down -- and seem happy with it. I have some reservations. I've seen rolled roofing used as well. I have doubts about using such materials close to food. With migratory lids -- and to a lesser extent telescoping lids, it is hard to get a good seal on the hive top. Although this is no problem during most of the season, it can delay buildup in spring due to drafts and water entry. Bad seals also lead to propolising and mean more scraping which is costly and a nuisance. > Biggest difference between NZ and US equipment (not sure about Oz) is > where the bee space is for the boxes. In NZ, our beespace is below > the frames in the box. That is, the top of the top bars is only 1mm > from the top of the box itself. We have a selection of equipment that is not consistent in this measurement, making establishing a consistent bee space a problem. (And frankly, I don't care what Langstroth thought, but my bees don't respect ee space under lids anyhow). However, we have found a solution to many of the above problems -- and more, we think. In conjunction with Eric Abell, we have been building pillows that go under lids and are used year round. They consist of a layer of Kodel (polyester batting) enveloped in plasic. (Kodel is very resilient and does not hold water at all. It comes in 1/2 and 1-1/2 inch (R4)thicknesses). We have several designs that we are playing with, some using more, some using less thickness, and some using 6 mil black plastic tubing heat sealed on the sides, with others using tarpaulin material sewn on the edges. Eric made a number this spring and was delighted with the results on his weaker hives and has extended the concept to as many as he can. There are, of course advantages and disadvantages to any approach, and this project is no exception: On the down side, there is one more piece to make up a hive. Moreover it is not an item that is easy to tie on a truck :( Ther is no space on top of the top bars, unless the bees have built some bumps there, and sticks need to be placed there to allow the bees to cross over, and to permit access to TM dust if used. Lids do not get stuck down, and may need rocks. --------------------------------------------------- On the plus side: All cracks under the lid are sealed. Water cannot get in. Outer lids can be leaky without problems. The lid has about R5 insulation if the insulation is not crushed too much, (see later comments) Outer lids come off easily -- if you have kept one side of the pillow (only) for the down side, and the top of the pillow is not propolised. Thus, the blanket can be peeled back a bit for quick inspections or frame feeding without opening the entire cluster to rain and wind or causing them to fly up in your face. If the blankets are made big enough, they overhang a bit on the sides and are pressed by the lid, causing telescoping lids to bind a bit, thus assisting in holding them on. Bees are not crushed as much when putting on lids. Top bars and lids do not need to be scraped, since the wax bumps on top provide a crawl space. Wax and propolis do not stick well to plastic, and thus removing lids is less traumatic. The pillows can also be used under a single brood chamber for nucs, if an auger hole entrance is provided. This makes for a really cosy hive. They can also be molded around several frames in a standard box to house a tiny nuc until it grows. ---------------------------------------------------- And there is a wintering aspect: Using these pillows, I have been experimenting with having an upper entrance for wintering right in the front of the telescoping lid. 3/4" X 3/4" wood strips are nailed around the outside of the inner surface of telescoping lids. A 2" gap is left in the centre at the front. The idea of this ledge is that this supports the weight of the lid (plus rocks, or other hives during moves, etc,) so that the insulation is not compressed much in the centre. It assures a good fit at the edges, and allows for placing pollen patties, grease patties, sticks, etc. on the top bars without having the lid teeter around. At the 2" gap, several holes are drilled into the lid to allow for a winter top entrance. The pillow is pulled back an inch or so to allow access for the bees. This is part of our attempt to develop a _one piece_ wintering cover to go over 4 hives on a pallet. We curently do have a one piece cover, but it requires 4 plywood covers to press the insulation over the auger holes that are now our upper entrance. Since the wrap is pressed tight to the hives where it curves over the front of the lids, no cover piece is required. Many of the current systems require removing the telescoping lid for wintering, which is a hassle. Ideally, we should be able to walk into a yard, throw a blanlet over the whole pallet, secure it and leave. Any extra pieces are just a nuisance. I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions on this. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:43:52 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rick Grossman Subject: Re: Message Headers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't know what packages most people use, but even Eudora Light has a sort option (under edit) that will allow you to sort by sender. This way, any time you get your email, you can sort by sender, read the bee-l list, and then re-sort to whatever else you prefer. If there are too many email packages in use that can not do this, I would fully support the idea for a subject header, but I would rather not have the subject line be used this way if possible. Rick Grossman Oregon, USA At 09:19 PM 12/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >At 20:39 2/12/96 -0500, Elisa & Tim Sharpe wrote: > >>We have seen a discussion in a Goat List about using a special message header >>to identify Goat messages from other messages that arrive in the same e-mail >>box. The Goat list administrator changed the configuration of the list >>software to prefix the subject with "PGoat". It has made sorting the goat >>messages from the other e-mail much easier. >> >> With the high volume of messages that the Bee-Line List generates we would >>like to put this idea out to the members of the list and the administrator. >> Is anybody else interested? > >Considering that most of us (in Bee-L) do not have Eudora Pro instaled, I >strongly support the Sharpes' idea. >Concensus??? >Would the Bee-L Administrator be kind to do it?? > >Cheers from DownUnder... >Mauricio :) > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:12:29 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: Fw: bee goddess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ > > Kathleen:Thanks for signing guest book. I have the following info for you. > ARISTAEUS,in GREEK mythology,son of the god Apollo and the > nymph Cyrene. He was worshipped as the protecor of hunters,herdsmen,and > flocks and as the inventor of beekeeping and olive culture.When Aristaeus > tried to seduce Eurydice,the wife of the celebrated musician Orpheus,she > fled from him and received a fatal snake bite.The nymphs punished him by > causing all of his bees to die;but he appeased the nymphs with a sacrifice > of cattle,from whose carcasses emerged new swarms of bees.He was widely > honored as a beneficient god and was often represented as a youthful > sheperd carrying a lamb. > The only one close to a goddess I found was MELLONA, a Roman > divinity who protects the bees. Her name was derived from "mel" (honey). > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:33:54 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Propolis info on the Net Mike, I am sure there are computer literate beekeepers out there who can scan it in and then post it for public access. I could scan it in, if someone else could post it. (I don't have page upload capability, but I can scan.) Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 22:58:38 -0600 "Michael L. Wallace" writes: >Hello, All, > >There have been several requests for me to put the info on the Net and >make >it available for download or as an attachment. Unfortunately, to my >knowledge, I don't have the software capabilities to transfer my >document >into a form that I can do that with. And I'm darn sure not going to >retype >it all. WHEW! Plus, I already have the documents printed up >(left-overs >from the convention). They were printed for the express purpose of >disseminating the information. They will do nobody any good if they >sit in >a box here at my home, so I need to distribute them. > >I realize it will be an extra mailing cost for some, but it shouldn't >be >very much extra. For those of you outside of the U.S., I will need to >find >out how much it will cost to send the document to you and then get >back to you. > > >Regards to all, > > >Mike Wallace >Sar Shalom Apiary >McKinney, Texas USA >"God bless you!" > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:38:09 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: gsbees Subject: Goddess of Honey, Melissa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >>Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology, BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU >>To: Multiple recipients of list BEE-L, BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU re: Melissa, goddess of honey >>> The only one close to a goddess I found was MELLONA, a >>Roman >>> divinity who protects the bees. Her name was derived from "mel" (honey). > The name "Melissa" is the goddess of honey ... "Mellona" is the protector of honey ... Since my husband keeps bees and I have Guinea Pigs, I have two sows who are named Melissa and Mellona!! "Phoebe's Mom" gsbees@telis.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harry Sweet Subject: SOLVENTS Greetings Bee-Lers! Has anyone got a super solvent for wax & propolis? I've tried denatured alcohol. I'm trying to clean some rendering pots. Harry Sweet N. California USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:51:23 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Maus Subject: Re: Spring Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Packages will be in high demand if not short in supply in some areas this spring. I am wondering if anyone is knows of anyone bringing pkgs to southeastern or central wisconsin? E-mail directly if you have info jsmaus@execpc.com. Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:53:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: SOLVENTS Harry, Try lighter fluid on propolis. Gerry Visel On Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:11:48 -0500 Harry Sweet writes: >Greetings Bee-Lers! > >Has anyone got a super solvent for wax & propolis? >I've tried denatured alcohol. I'm trying to clean some >rendering pots. > >Harry Sweet >N. California USA > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 18:49:55 +1100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Beekeeping software... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There's a bit of Kiwi software available for trialling on the Web. Phil Radford, a local programmer, wrote B-Plus for a nearby pollination beekeeper. He has an evaluation version (5 sites only) that you can download to trial. Write him a note with comments and tell him you heard about it from BEE-L! http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/radcomp/ (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "James C. King" Subject: Honey House plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 02:11:13 -0500 >From: "" >Subject: Honey House plans > >We are planning to build a honey house to use for storing all my equipment >and for processing our honey. We are just hobby beekeepers at this point > (only 8 hives) but planning to expand to as many as 30 hives. Does anyone >have suggestions for a honey house? My son-in-law is drawing plans and >wants to know what to include. >My husband plans to make it abou 20ft. by 10 ft with plumbing and >electricity. Anyone out there who has built a honey house have suggestions? >Mary > Mary, I second the idea to build larger if you possibly can. Depending on what you will have in your extracting set up, a pit in the floor (with drain) might be a good idea. I have such a pit in the floor of my honey house. The extractor on floor level empties into a jacketed sump sitting in the pit. Following the sump in a small honey pump with long hose to pump into strainers over drums or tanks. Jim King, Riegelsville, PA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Dadant statistics on bees Hi Bee folk, Hugh Thone from Antwerp asked me if I could put the statistics about how many trips it takes bees to make a pound of honey on the web site or this b-line. My beekeeping stuff is in my "northern" house and I am here in Tampa right now. Is there anyone from Dadant on this line who could grab those sorts of statistics and put them on this line so that Hugo and others could have them? I can't help with accurate numbers right now. Is the definition of a "migratory beekeeper" one who migrates from her southern home to her northern hives and back? It's frusting being away from "the girls," When I finally have time to get to an area beekeepers meeting and get the low down on keeping bees in Florida, I may just start up a token hive here just do my skills don't get rusty! I realize that he can call the Dadant number (800) 637-7468, but he may not be able to easily reach an American telephone number from Europe. Perhaps there's someone from Bee Culture (Kim....are you there?) who had these statistics or from another bee company. Thanks for your help. Faith Andrews Bedford Beekeeper, Ivy, VA and Tampa, FL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:52:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: SOLVENTS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lye usually works well. It is sold in grocery stores for unclogging stuck drains. Be very careful, as it is potent stuff. Also it will react with Aluminum, so it's not very good for that. One thing I have done is to fill the pot about 3/4 with hot water. (I have sometimes used lobster or big stew pots, enameled ones, to melt wax scraps and cappings.) Set it on a burner and let it heat right up to not-quite boiling. Stir the hot water around with a stick, sortof scraping the sides. Then just dump out all that hot water outside. It will carry most of the wax and goo (now melted) with it. If you dump it into a big container of some sort, eventually it will cool and you can sometimes later salvage a thin layer of hardened wax from the surface. OR, fill the container about 3/4 with hot tap water. This time don't heat it further, but drop in a couple tablespoons of lye INTO THE WATER, carefully, and stir it up. Let it sit for a couple of hours or whatever, and then dump the liquid out. The lye will dissolve most of the residues. Then you can repeat the treatment if necessary. Other than that, I don't know of any way to clean that stuff up. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 12:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: SOLVENTS, wax residues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh, I forgot: If you use the method of heating water in the pot, and then dumping it out -- take some paper towels, bunched up, and as soon as you dump out the hot water, wipe out the inside of the pot, quickly while it is still hot. The paper towel will wipe of almost all of the leftover wax and propolis. Interesting anecdote: A few years ago I was rendering some old wax using big pots like that. It was mid-late May. Anyway, I would set the pails of hot liquid wax (as well as the pots) out on the back porch of my ground-floor apartment to cool off at night. Well, on my birthday (end of May)(!) a nice big swarm showed up on a maple tree right outside my back door, in perfect position to hive! It was only a few feet from the porch. Nice birthday present! I had been storing the gummed up strainer bags, pots, etc. out there, out of sight, as they start to look and smell pretty bad (from rendering old brood combs). The strainers I was using were those strong, mesh laundry bags as issued in the military. My suspicion is that the swarm noticed all the wax smell, and whatever pheromones were in the residues drew them to cluster where they did. It was right in the middle of an apartment complex, so there were no colonies right in that central area. The neighborhood kids got a good show, as I hived the bees without gearing up, and the swarm was very gentle. If you accumulate clogged or torn strainers or lumps of "slumgum" don't forget that they are very attractive to bees, especially if the sun can warm them up. I have put some lumps of that refuse on the roofs of empty hives to attract swarms, and apparently it is pretty effective. FWIW... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 15:45:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Roof Cover Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > Using these pillows, I have been experimenting with having an upper > entrance for wintering right in the front of the telescoping lid. > 3/4" X 3/4" wood strips are nailed around the outside of the inner > surface of telescoping lids. A 2" gap is left in the centre at the > front. > > The idea of this ledge is that this supports the weight of the lid > (plus rocks, or other hives during moves, etc,) so that the > insulation is not compressed much in the centre. It assures a good > fit at the edges, and allows for placing pollen patties, grease > patties, sticks, etc. on the top bars without having the lid teeter > around. Very interesting article, Allen. But I am having some trouble visualising the 3/4 X 3/4 inch strips....and their function. Maybe you could explain it a bit further...:) Thanks....:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 16:09:11 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Wax worms in frames In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello... I have been late getting the last of my honey extracted, and found one or two frames with the tell-tale webbing of the dreaded wax moth larvae. Should I discard these combs, or extract it?...Is it safe? Thanks in advance...:) Ian @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 4 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 21:20:19 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Nick's List for BEE Surfers. Comments: To: mail2news@news.news.demon.net Mike Pheysey (mikeph@hpcpbla.bri.hp.com) wrote: > First of all thank you to Nick Wallingford and Andy Nachbaur > for providing, between them, a superb compendium of bee websites. Here here. And thanks also to Mike for his conversion to html, which I've now taken still further into a even neater formatted document (with my page & the Natiuonal Honey Board also added). It's on my homepage: Nick's Bee surfer list regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 17:33:05 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Dadant statistics on bees Faith, The national honey board site has that info (and a lot more!) I _think_ it is at www.nhb.com. (I'm away from my web access 'puter. Will check tomorrow and upload the right address if this ain't right.) Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA On Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:24:58 -0500 Faith Andrews Bedford writes: >Hugh Thone from Antwerp asked me if I could put the statistics about >how many >trips it takes bees to make a pound of honey on the web site or this >b-line. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 17:37:08 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Roof Cover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > > > Using these pillows, I have been experimenting with having an upper > > entrance for wintering right in the front of the telescoping lid. > > 3/4" X 3/4" wood strips are nailed around the outside of the inner > > surface of telescoping lids. A 2" gap is left in the centre at the > > front. > > > > The idea of this ledge is that this supports the weight of the lid > > (plus rocks, or other hives during moves, etc,) so that the > > insulation is not compressed much in the centre. It assures a good > > fit at the edges, and allows for placing pollen patties, grease > > patties, sticks, etc. on the top bars without having the lid teeter > > around. > > > Very interesting article, Allen. But I am having some trouble visualising > the 3/4 X 3/4 inch strips....and their function. Maybe you could explain > it a bit further...:) I wondered if it was clear. If the normal telescoping lid is placed over a pillow, the weight of the lid and anything on it goes onto the entire pillow, squashing it somewhat -- and anything under it. The lid also rocks a bit. By nailing the strips of wood around the outer edge of the inner surface of the inside of the lid, the lid is held up 3/4 inch off the frames and the the lid weight is carried by the box, not the pillow and frames. Because of the 3/4 inch space (plus any distance the frames sit down below the top of the box), the pillow is not compressed much. Moreover the pressure of the strips guarantees a good seal around the edge. Items such as pollen patties placed on top of the frames merely push up into the the pillow up without affecting the lid's stability. (Anything over 3/4" thick would, however push the lid up). You see, I have some inner covers with about an inch of space above the top bars to allow for putting patties in, but the problem is that this is too much clustering space, and the bees group up there in the spring and fill it with burr comb, instead of working down on the frames, unless I get out there and change them. That extra space means lots of work scraping. This method allows the space to be there when I arrive with patties, but that space fills with the pillow when nothing is on the top bars. Moreover, the bits of wax and burr comb that we formerly scraped regularly from the top bars after reversing is now an asset, allowing bee communication over the top bars. The R4 insulation is a benefit in heat or cold, and the plastic keeps lids from being stuck down. We have also experimented with adding a piece of Styrofoam an inch or so thick before putting the strips in to give a total of R8+, including the pillow. Because the pillow keeps the lid away from the bees, chewing should not be a problem. However retrofitting old lids with a 2-1/2 inch depth is not too good, since the styrofoam subtracts 1" and the strips subtract a further 3/4", leaving only 3/4" of telescope, so if we stick with this, we will likely have to make new lids with about 4-1/2" or 5" deep sides. The gap in the front of the strips is to allow for the bees to fly out and for air to circulate -- if the pillow is moved back a bit (and if holes are drilled straight out the front of the lid). Hope this is clearer... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 19:39:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Carl H. Powell" Subject: SOLVENTS BE>Greetings Bee-Lers! BE>Has anyone got a super solvent for wax & propolis? BE>I've tried denatured alcohol. I'm trying to clean some BE>rendering pots. BE>Harry Sweet BE>N. California USA Hi! I have two methods so far that work for me depending in the size of the pot/bowl and its relative value (cost of replacement). 1) Completely submerge the entire thing in boiling water. Allow the wax to boil off and then pour off the boiling water with the wax in suspension. 2) Deep freeze the thing for 24 hours. Then bang it on the cement. At this point most of the wax and propolis will 'shatter' off and the rest can be easily scraped before the object warms. Carl Powell Watchman@qwick.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 00:29:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Wax worms in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Watson wrote: > > I have been late getting the last of my honey extracted, and found one or > two frames with the tell-tale webbing of the dreaded wax moth larvae. > Should I discard these combs, or extract it?...Is it safe? > Thanks in advance...:) It looks to me like you have a rather light infestation. I would just scratch out the moth signs and extract the honey. Then, kill any undetected larvae by putting the supers outside to freeze. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:02:31 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Deb & Greg Kalicin Subject: Re: Fw: bee goddess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIDNITEBEE wrote: > > > > > http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ > > > > Kathleen:Thanks for signing guest book. I have the following info for > you. > > ARISTAEUS,in GREEK mythology,son of the god Apollo and > the > > nymph Cyrene. He was worshipped as the protecor of hunters,herdsmen,and > > flocks and as the inventor of beekeeping and olive culture.When Aristaeus > > tried to seduce Eurydice,the wife of the celebrated musician Orpheus,she > > fled from him and received a fatal snake bite.The nymphs punished him by > > causing all of his bees to die;but he appeased the nymphs with a > sacrifice > > of cattle,from whose carcasses emerged new swarms of bees.He was widely > > honored as a beneficient god and was often represented as a youthful > > sheperd carrying a lamb. > > The only one close to a goddess I found was MELLONA, a > Roman > > divinity who protects the bees. Her name was derived from "mel" (honey). > > I know the name Melissa is Greek For Honey bee, that is why my daughter got the name. Deborah is Hebrew for Bee. Deb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 09:36:37 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Conrad Berube Comments: To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I need to know the name of the bee goddess in Greek or Egytian mythology? >Is there a web link? > Thanks, > Midnitebee(Herb) There are a number of goddesses that have associations with bees in Greek and Egyptian mythology-- one of whom (the Ephesian Artemis) is discussed in an article located at http://vvv.com/~bwarner/beestars.htm with a graphic of her statue that, I'm afraid isn't all that great (the graphic, that is, the statue itself is quite interesting ;-). - Conrad Berube " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT " ` 613 Hecate St. _- -_`-_|'\ /` Nanaimo, B.C. _/ / / -' `~()() V8N 1X5 \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (250)754-2482; fax (250)656-8922 / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '` ^ ^ website: http://vvv.com/~bwarner ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:38:02 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Conrad Berube Comments: To: midnitebee@cybertours.com, gsbees@TELIS.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From one contributor: >The only one close to a goddess I found was MELLONA, a Roman >divinity who protects the bees. Her name was derived from "mel" (honey). and another: >The name "Melissa" is the goddess of honey ... "Mellona" is the >protector of honey Saw these postings after I sent off my note-- just to split hairs ;-) : Actually Mellona or Mellonia was the ROMAN goddess of bees. Melissa, (Greek for 'honeybee') on the other hand, was not really a goddess at all, but was, rather, a title ascribed to GREEK _priestesses_ of the Great Mother, especially in her aspect as the Ephesian Artemis. Later ancient mythographers, trying to hu ver really goddesses. The goat-nurse, Amaltheia was immortalized as the constellation Capricorn and Zeus created from one of her horns that icon of bounty the cornicopia, which yields any food or drink the bearer desires). Our modern, sanitized imagery of the Greek pantheon often ignores the older more animistic belief systems which were associated with less-than-genteel ritual such as the annual pageant in which a couple, acting to renew the fertility of the earth, posed 'ole time religion"? Not for me thanks ;-) The following books are fairly commonly found and contain a wealth of info regarding bees in ancient belief (the former restreicted to that of classical Greece): Graves, Robert. Greek Myths. Cassell and Company, Ltd. London, 1955. Ransome, Hilda M. 1986. The Sacred Bee in Ancient Times and Folklore. Bee Books New and Old. Burrowbridge, Bridgwater, England, - Conrad Berube " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT " ` 613 Hecate St. _- -_`-_|'\ /` Nanaimo, B.C. _/ / / -' `~()() V8N 1X5 \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (250)754-2482; fax (250)656-8922 / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '` ^ ^ website: http://vvv.com/~bwarner/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 23:26:31 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: D Warr Subject: Mayan God of Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:36 8/12/1996 -0800, you wrote: >>I need to know the name of the bee goddess in Greek or Egytian mythology? >>Is there a web link? >> Thanks, >> Midnitebee(Herb) > > >There are a number of goddesses that have associations with bees in Greek >and Egyptian mythology-- one of whom (the Ephesian Artemis) is discussed in >an article located at http://vvv.com/~bwarner/beestars.htm with a graphic of >her statue that, I'm afraid isn't all that great (the graphic, that is, the >statue itself is quite interesting ;-). > > - Conrad Berube > " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT > " ` 613 Hecate St. > _- -_`-_|'\ /` Nanaimo, B.C. > _/ / / -' `~()() V8N 1X5 > \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (250)754-2482; fax (250)656-8922 > / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca > '` ^ ^ website: http://vvv.com/~bwarner > >I have heard of a Mayan God of the Bees? David Warr Cheshire England ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 23:26:34 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: D Warr Subject: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi Bee folk, > Does anyone have any information on the way the group mind of the colony behaves. For example I have heard that a colony will allow several queens to hatch out - isolating each one with a small court of attendants - to keep them apart. Letting them out one by one to mate and in some cases allowing several queens (up to four in the case mentioned ) to lay in separate parts of the hive without any fuss. I know about the Cjemical signals emitted by the Queen but it is this detailed working of the consensual mind that is the curious feature I am interested in. Any comments?? David Warr Warrington Cheshire England ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:02:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >... it is this >detailed working of the consensual mind that is the curious feature I am >interested in. > >Any comments?? > >David Warr >Warrington >Cheshire >England This is one of the most wonderfully intriguing aspects of a honey bee colony, for sure. Just how DO they "decide"? How do they make decisions like: when to replace their queen by supersedure, whether or not to make swarm preparations, which nectar sources to exploit, and other things like selecting a home-site? Somehow they select from numerous possibilities, and it ends up unanimous. What is of further fascination is that a colony is made up of several sub-colonies. That is, the queen can mate with a number of drones. So you end up with many sub-colonies, each composed of sisters from a common drone-father. Yet, the colony still works together. It's interesting to notice the differences in genetic expression as regards appearance -- abdominal markings and colors can vary widely within a single colony. Then, too, if a colony barely survives a bad winter, who knows? it might be just sisters of certain of the sub-colonies which actually survive, thanks to some desirable combination of genes which they posess. Would anyone care to comment on or explain the "colony mind," or for that matter, colony "morale?" Is there evidence of an "overlord" caste of workers, for instance? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:02:20 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Does anyone have any information on the way the group mind of the > > colony behaves. > For example I have heard that a colony will allow several queens to > hatch out - isolating each one with a small court of attendants - to > keep them apart. Letting them out one by one to mate and in some > cases allowing several queens (up to four in the case mentioned ) to > lay in separate parts of the hive without any fuss. > > I know about the Chemical signals emitted by the Queen but it is > this detailed working of the consensual mind that is the curious > feature I am interested in. Allen Latham used to talk about 'control bees' that are responsible for decisions and strategies in a hive. It is an interesting concept and explains many things that a strictly mechanical/chemical model does not. Problem: No one has been able to identify any bees that can be proven to be control bees. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 18:31:17 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Honey House plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My only suggestion - no matter how large or small your operation may be - is to provide for washing up. My suggestion is to have good grade on the floor draining into a long trough covered with a metal grate of some sort. You might see what garages use for washing their floors. Eric At 02:11 AM 06/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >We are planning to build a honey house to use for storing all my equipment >and for processing our honey. We are just hobby beekeepers at this point > (only 8 hives) but planning to expand to as many as 30 hives. Does anyone >have suggestions for a honey house? My son-in-law is drawing plans and >wants to know what to include. >My husband plans to make it abou 20ft. by 10 ft with plumbing and >electricity. Anyone out there who has built a honey house have suggestions? >Mary > > Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:24:59 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Q. Clemencia Licona Manzur" Subject: Ap0l0gize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi f0lks: A c0uple 0f days ag0 I sent my intr0ducti0n t0 the list. I menti0ned that in Mexic0, beekeeping science was left behind. I have been receiving s0me e-mails fr0m pe0ple wh0 w0rks here, and I have t0 tell that m0st 0f them d0 quite interesting things. S0, I want t0 ap0l0gize with th0se w0rking hard, the 0nly excuse I have is my infinite ign0rance! Regards, Clemencia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 00:40:32 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Veldhuis Organization: University of Manitoba Subject: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Overmind or Group Mind of a Colony The relevant publication here is: "The honey bee colony as a superorganism" Thomas D. Seeley American Scientist, vol 77, pp. 546-553. (1989) In a sidebar to the article, a forthcoming book is mentioned, I don't know if it has ever seen the light of day (anyone know?). I'll very briefly summarize... The honeybee colony can usefully be described as if it were one organism, or as if one organism were in control. This is because the discrete organisms (the bees) interact in very complex ways. They have evolved to fill an ecological niche with what is a very successful strategy. This strategy is 'intelligent' in the sense that it seems to need an intelligence to make it work. The innate behavioural responses of the individual bees are what make this strategy work. By analogy: stupid things like individual consumers buying milk and tv's combine under general rules called market forces which act in a way that makes the economies of entire countries work. No one who buys a certain brand of milk does so with the idea of reducing supply by increasing demand for the various widgits in the milk chain, and so employing etc... but that is the result. I don't want to take the mystery out of things. The real exciting mystery is that the bees really are stupid little things, and yet they accomplish so much, just by instinctive co-operation. Phil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: State Inspector's report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ The Maine State Bee Inspector's report,for the December's Bee Line News,has been added on my site.It is located at the "Latest Buzz". Since I do not have a web counter attached to my page,it would be appreciated if you would sign the guest book. Signing the guest book will let me know if my site is worthwhile.Web counters are not accurate. Thanks, Midnitebee(Herb) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 07:12:14 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony In-Reply-To: <32ABB45E.2234@cc.umanitoba.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The titles of the texts by Thomas D. Seeley are as follows: Honeybee Ecology A study of Adaptation in Social Life(1985) Princeton Univ. Press. The Wisdom of the Hive The Social Physiology of Honey Bee Colonies(1995) Harvard Univ. Press. :) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:01:39 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Group Mind of a Colony Discussion of Bee Biology,BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU,Internet writes: >selecting a home-site When a swarm decides to move from its cluster location to a new home, the bees are doing something ( making a group decision ) that none of them have ever done before. I watch this process with fascination. On two occasions last spring, I was able to station myself right in front of the empty hive body that a swarm from my own colonies chose to move into. My head was only two feet from the entrance when the swarm arrived to land on me and on the hive body. Once, I saw the queen enter the hive body although I did not see her land on it (and I was looking for her arrival!) The bees took no interest in me. Tim Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Group Mind of a Colony Comments: To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Discussion of Bee Biology,BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU,Internet writes: >>selecting a home-site Tim Sterrett wrote: ...> > ... When a swarm decides to move from its cluster location to a new home, >the bees are doing something ( making a group decision ) that none of them >have ever done before. I watch this process with fascination. Something remarkable is going on there! Have you ever watched a clustered swarm just before they take off for their new home? They have some unique behaviors. The bees on the surface of the cluster get very agitated and frantic, and many start doing a sort of "dance." They shake and wiggle their way rapidly over the surface of the swarm. I'm not sure, but it could be that those bees are scouts, and they are performing a dance on the swarm surface to indicate the location of the home-site. (Anyone know?) I think Dr. Tom Seeley may have covered this. Right before a swarm takes off from their intermediate cluster point (tree branch or whatever,) I have seen the shaking behavior increase rapidly, until almost all the bees on the swarm's outside are crazily shaking and dancing all over the place. I wonder if this behavior serves to (literally) break the cluster, to get everybody airborne again. As the swarm starts to leave the branch, entire clumps of clustered bees will often fall, and before they hit the ground they all take to the air, joining their sisters in a huge swirling mass. Still, though, who leads? Who follows? Who's got the directions? Which scouts do they pay attention to, and which ones do they not? You figure, they may have a dozen potential home sites. Yet they all find their way to a "selected" one. No less fascinating is the fact that once a swarm takes off and finds a new cavity in which to live, the bees "forget" about the parent hive location. If you try to move a hive or a bunch of supers some short distance from their original location, though, your bees will return en masse to that site. They are locked onto that location. Something mysterious happens in swarm-bees that causes them to rearrange their whole "map" of home and landmarks. Their reference point is no longer their former address, but the new site instead. It's like they have immediate autonomy and a "clean slate" once they are out of the parent hive from which they issued. Any info appreciated on this stuff. Many thanks, JWG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: guest book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ Thanks to those that have signed the guest book. I have increased to size of the e-mail blank.This is one of the reasons I requested that people sign,so I can get feed-back. Comments pro and con are appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:16:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: organizations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ Just a thought.I am considering adding other beekeeping newsletters.Let me know if any beekeeping meetings or conventions,etc.,you might like me to add. I will not accept any commercialism. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:30:26 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Armando G. Cuellar, Jr." Subject: Re: Ap0l0gize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:24 PM 12/9/96 -0800, you wrote: > Hi f0lks: > > A c0uple 0f days ag0 I sent my intr0ducti0n t0 the list. I menti0ned >that in Mexic0, beekeeping science was left behind. > I have been receiving s0me e-mails fr0m pe0ple wh0 w0rks here, and I >have t0 tell that m0st 0f them d0 quite interesting things. S0, I want t0 >ap0l0gize with th0se w0rking hard, the 0nly excuse I have is my infinite >ign0rance! > Regards, > Clemencia > Hola Clemencia: I am a Colombiano who just started beekeeping this year and have found BBE-L to be a very useful resource. I wanted to pass on that my Uncle in Bogota got me interested in doing this about twenty years ago when I visited him as a teenager. What I have found through the INTERNET is that beekeepers exist all over the world. Thank God. Regards, Armando Cuellar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:37:25 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Bees are stupid little thing" With all due respect I object. Bees communicate communication is intelligent ,intelligence is NORMALLY an absence of stupidity. I am not yelling only emphasizing. As a trainer I found that words can be time bombs in a learning process. My personal opinion is the hive does beehave like a single organizim but displays remarkable intelligence. It appears as though they behave as a single cell when looking at swarm behavior. Respectfully submitted Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:35:51 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > "Bees are stupid little thing" With all due respect I object. I'm with Jerry on this. Those words made me stop. But then, I thought that I really can't define intelligence (asssumed to be the opposite of stupidity). There are some who can, and perhaps will resurrect the discussion that went on about this some time back. It is interesting that we, as homo sapiens, tend to be rather nigardly in assigning intelligence to our companion beings here on this planet. Should we ever meet another race of beings in our intergalactic travels who approach our ability to plunder, pillage and exploit, I can only hope that they somehow notice that we are indeed intelligent in spite of our mob and group insanities and that they respect and conserve intelligent species and beings -- as we do not. After all, since the history of this world is one of refusing to grant 'person' status to our fellow humans, it is no wonder that we might find bees 'stupid' for being bees. After all it has been recently discovered that our famous IQ tests do little but determine the species, political, social group to which the subject belongs. :) Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:19:22 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Q: preserving bee specimens I am thinking of keeping bee specimens. By race, color, size ect. I would like to keep specimens to do comparisons over time. Does anyone have a prescribed methed of preservation? Other than photography is there a way to preserve the color of the bee while preserving the bee. Maybe multiple methods, one for color (encased in platic) , and another of close examination (pinned or in alcohol). Has anyone encased bee speciments in plastic? If so how did appear and age? Thanks, Jim Moore ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 07:57:22 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Conrad Berube Subject: Re: Mayan bee god Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >...Mayan bee god In classical Mayan days the honey of stingless meliponid bees was used to brew a potent mead-like drink called pulque which was an important feature at religious and civic functions (the alcohol and narcotic properties, the latter derived from the root of the maguey agave included in the concoctions recipe, probably were used to induce revelatory visions). And, yes they did have, bee gods, Noyumcab and Ah-Mucencab, to whom elaborate ceremonies were dedicated to ensure a copious honey crop. - Conrad Berube " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT " ` 613 Hecate St. _- -_`-_|'\ /` Nanaimo, B.C. _/ / / -' `~()() V8N 1X5 \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (250)754-2482; fax (250)656-8922 / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '` ^ ^ website: http://vvv.com/~bwarner/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:24:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Group Mind of a Colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Still, though, who leads? Who follows? Who's got the directions? Which >scouts do they pay attention to, and which ones do they not? You figure, >they may have a dozen potential home sites. Yet they all find their way to >a "selected" one. I have read somewhere that the scout bees dance directions for the different locations they are exploring and that other bees are encouraged to investigate. When a "majority" of the scouts are dancing for a particular homesite that is appealing this might lead to the dance behaviour that you describe and the impetus to "take off". This is, I always felt, a most fascinating "democratic" example of sociality and hive mind, however, I no longer know where I read this, or whether it is indeed experimentally corroborated, or just someone's idea of what hive mind "should" be. The story also went that if the hive could not come to a consensus on a new homesite by the end of a certain window of time determined possibly by how much stores were remaining in their guts, that they would just start building comb on the branch where they had settled. Any comments on this? >No less fascinating is the fact that once a swarm takes off and finds a new >cavity in which to live, the bees "forget" about the parent hive location. Before they actually start building comb I am not so sure they have "forgot" the old location. I once was working a yard where a hive swarmed. They settled so close and so conveniently that I tried to hive them much too quickly I think. They flew back to the hive they had swarmed from. Perhaps the queen was lost from the swarm when I tried to hive them, and in the absence of her pheromones they returned home. This is quite possible since a portion of the swarm did fall before I got the rest in a box. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:08:13 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Allen Latham used to talk about 'control bees' that are responsible >for decisions and strategies in a hive. It is an interesting >concept and explains many things that a strictly mechanical/chemical >model does not. > >Problem: No one has been able to identify any bees that can be >proven to be control bees. > >Regards > >Allen > >W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK >RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 >Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net >Honey. Bees, & Art > I thought some Bee liners would be unhappy about bees being called "stupid". Maybe a single bee does not have much brain power but I think it is important to regard the whole colony as a single individual especially in terms of brain power. They clearly communicate by touching antennae and the resulting network of inteconnecting neurones must be massive. A huge communal "brain"? I once observed a swarm that (for teaching purposes) had been placed on a tree with the queen caged. After about an hour they "decided" to take off. They flew across a field for about 500 yards but then came back. An impressive mid-flight and unanimous decision! Regards Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:48:58 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Honey as a wound dressing In-Reply-To: <961112.094603.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Aaron Morris wrote: > I'm looking for references to honey as a wound dressing. It was a common > wound dressing in the US Civil War, but has been usurped by modern > medicine. I have the reference to manuka honey to treat ulcers (thanks > Nick!), but I'd like to find reference to honey as a topical salve for > cuts, scrapes, burns, etc. Surprizingly, there is nothing in > _The_Hive_and_the_Honeybee_. Suggestions anyone? > Thanks in advance, > Aaron Morris Hi, Just a few days ago there was an item in a UK medical show, featuring the use of sugar pastes and honeys as wound treatments. Not only is this treatment alive and well, but it seems it's on the increase, because sugar pastes (whether honey or manufactured) avoid the problems of antibiotic resistance. It also seems that Medicines sans Frontier, the French trouble-spot Doctors, have been using them for years in third-world war zones and now rate them more highly than many modern alternatives. The view of the program was that they're not widely used, partially because of the view that it's an old wives tale and partly because the drugs companies can't patent sugar or honey. Regards, Gordon. -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 19:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I once observed a swarm that (for teaching purposes) had been placed on a >tree with the queen caged. After about an hour they "decided" to take off. >They flew across a field for about 500 yards but then came back. An >impressive mid-flight and unanimous decision! > >Regards > >Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK Cool! /// I have twice watched a swarm leave -- as I was preparing to hive them, of course. It is very difficult to follow or keep up with them, as they fly upward and away. I found it impossible. If you watch any one single bee, she will not appear to be flying directly towards the destination, but more flying in ever widening loops, up and down, or back and forth. Then she becomes lost in the melee. It is a great wonder to me that they can move as a unit like that, when it all seems like mass confusion. I guess you could say the bees are "hard-wired" for behaviors like this, but the characteristics of preference or decision-making are in the mix, too. All in that tiny bundle of ganglia. Simply amazing. 'Reminds me of a swarm I once found in a small apple tree at one of my yards. I set up a hive (with comb) on a ladder adjacent to the cluster, and tried to get them to go in. No problem, right? I expected them to be all excited about that hive; I was offering them a real bargain. It smelled all nice like a beehive should -- like old wax and propolis, very dry and dark inside. Sure, they started entering right away. I waited and watched. Ho hum... (Yawn). After a large portion of the bees had made their way inside, however, they suddenly started a mass exodus -- back out! What the... ! I tried and tried to coax them in, but they just didn't like that hive. I was baffled. I went over to my truck and found a cardboard (corrugated paper) box which I had used for dumping my cats' used cat-litter. It didn't smell very nice, of course. Still, it was the only other container I had. Guess what? Yup. The bees loved that box! They went running in like mad. Go figure... (I gave them a real hive later, & they developed into a great colony.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:32:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: Re: Honey as a wound dressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon Scott wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Aaron Morris wrote: > > > I'm looking for references to honey as a wound dressing. It was a common > > wound dressing in the US Civil War, but has been usurped by modern > > medicine. I have the reference to manuka honey to treat ulcers (thanks > > Nick!), but I'd like to find reference to honey as a topical salve for > > cuts, scrapes, burns, etc. Surprizingly, there is nothing in > > _The_Hive_and_the_Honeybee_. Suggestions anyone? > Try this page: http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/nickw/nzbkpg.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 20:57:17 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Wilson Subject: Re: Mayan bee god In-Reply-To: <199612101557.HAA26314@norm.island.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII email: pjwilson@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Conrad Berube wrote: > >...Mayan bee god > > In classical Mayan days the honey of stingless meliponid bees was used to > brew a potent mead-like drink called pulque which was an important feature > at religious and civic functions (the alcohol and narcotic properties, the > latter derived from the root of the maguey agave included in the concoctions > recipe, probably were used to induce revelatory visions). In the 70's I drank PULQUE at several PULQUERIAS near the Merced Market in Mexico City. It is a whitish semi sweet drink that has the consistency of buttermilk and is only mildly alcoholic. I believe it is made exclusively from the fermented sap of the MAGUEY cactus. A good photograph of a collector of the Maguey juice is in the National Geographic book " The Aztecs" ( p 109). >From my experience it is not narcotic. I add honey to an Australian Coopers 2 row barley beer kit and , some claim, that IS narcotic!! regards Peter Wilson Edmonton, Alberta.Canada. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:20:36 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mauricio Montes Castillo Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 19:33 10/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >...I went over to my truck and found a cardboard (corrugated paper) box which >I had used for dumping my cats' used cat-litter. It didn't smell very nice, >of course. Still, it was the only other container I had. Guess what? >Yup. The bees loved that box! They went running in like mad. Go >figure... >(I gave them a real hive later, & they developed into a great colony.) Females..(bees of course) are like Brisbane weather....unpredictable. Cheers from DownUnder Mauricio :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:25:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Group Mind of a Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel Govostes wrote: > >No less fascinating is the fact that once a swarm takes off and finds a new >cavity in which to live, the bees "forget" about the parent hive location. For many years I also have been fascinated by this interesting phenomenon of bees forgetting their old hive location. Even if the swarm is captured and the new hive moved near the old, the bees will mostly pay no attention to it any longer but quickly learn the position of the new hive. And if I stand there enthralled, I myself will become part of the new environment in their education, with bees carefully learning my position. This is amazing to me, because their brains are so tiny. I occasionally mentioned this to neuroanatomists in my acquaintance. It seems to me that the honey bee would be an ideal research subject to study memory (and forgetting). However, there is something about bees which turns the minds of many away. Maybe I'll just have to look into it myself (!). Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:53:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Q: preserving bee specimens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 wrote: > > I am thinking of keeping bee specimens. By race, > color, size ect. I would like to keep specimens to do > comparisons over time. Does anyone have a prescribed > methed of preservation? > > Other than photography is there a way to preserve > the color of the bee while preserving the bee. Maybe > multiple methods, one for color (encased in platic) , and > another of close examination (pinned or in alcohol). > > Has anyone encased bee speciments in plastic? If > so how did appear and age? I also would be interested in anyone's experiences with bee preservation. My standard air dried pinned specimens lost their color and their size, becoming small shriveled black things without distinguishing characteristics. It's even hard to tell queens from workers! I haven't tried alcohol, but I assume that they will hold their size in it, but I don't know about color. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:19:07 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Veldhuis Organization: University of Manitoba Subject: Philosophy of 'stupid' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Stupid bees. Well, my off-hand estimate of the intelligence of bees has ruffled a few feathers, and since I happen to be writing a thesis on the subject at the moment, I'm all warmed up. Here's some thoughts stimulated by 2 of the comments forwarded to me. 1. = I thought some Bee liners would be unhappy about bees being called "stupid". Maybe a single bee does not have much brain power but I think it is important to regard the whole colony as a single individual especially in terms of brain power. This is exactly my point, except that it seems prettly clear that our normal use of 'intelligence' is as a function of single organisms. When we say that "the faculty of harvard are intelligent" we mean "the individuals that constitute the faculty of harvard are each severally intelligent". We might say that "the faculty of harvard made an intelligent choice" if they collectively chose wisely, but then what we mean is that the choice is one that typifies those made by an intelligent person. = The point: intelligence ranges over single organisms, but can be used descriptively of the actions of groups. To say that a beehive is intelligent is descriptive of its actions, not an evaluation of the individual bees. To speak of the collective intelligence of the beehive is just one way of committing the fallacy of composition. Nevertheless, there may be some heuristic value in supposing the beehive acts "as-if" it were a single intelligence. That is, managing a bee-hive might be simpler and easier if you suppose that there is a collective intelligence at work. = Serious reflection of the matter should tell you that this cannot be the case. (philosophers call using a false theory to obtain results instrumentalism, the theory is an instrument, but not something you believe in itself). 2. "Bees are stupid little thing" With all due respect I object. Bees communicate communication is intelligent ,intelligence is NORMALLY an absence of stupidity. Whether communication is intelligent is really very controversal. = consider the following excerpted from my thesis: It is clear that animals communicate with each other, and with humans; but not all communication is linguistic. "A dog accompanied by a particular pungent odour communicates to us the fact that it has accosted a skunk. =85yet we are not tempted to suppose =85 the dog is us= ing language" [Hiel p. 400]. Males of different species go through elaborate displays of behaviour in attempts to gain sexual access to the females of their species. Their behaviour communicates their fitness for mating, even though it seems implausible to think that they intend to communicate their fitness. For instance, elk roar, and this roaring requires significant lung and chest muscle fitness. Female elk tend to select as mates males who have the best display of roaring behaviour. = Since any elk that can produce a decent display of roaring is undoubtedly a healthy specimen, male elk communicates fitness by roaring. Clearly, however, this is not a case of language even though the message the male sends is his relative fitness and the message the female receives is his relative fitness. In linguistic communication, ceterus paribus, the communicator intends for the communicatee to get the message. Philosophers refer to this feature of language as intentionality; and many (such as Donald Davidson) think that it is a crucial feature of language. = Whether any animal communication is genuinely linguistic is an important question to cognitive ethology because there is clearly a version of the apartness thesis which is predicated on language. According to the linguistic apartness thesis, language use is at least a crucial symptom of the difference in kind between animals and humans. According to a strong philosophical tradition, only genuinely linguistic communication is intelligent... Anyway, I hope this helps clear a few things up. BTW, the bee-relevant sections of my thesis are basically complete, I guess I could email it to anyone interested... Phil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:55:34 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Ap0l0gize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Clemencia wrote (from Mexico): > > A c0uple 0f days ag0 I sent my intr0ducti0n t0 the list. I menti0ned >that in Mexic0, beekeeping science was left behind. > I have been receiving s0me e-mails fr0m pe0ple wh0 w0rks here, and I >have t0 tell that m0st 0f them d0 quite interesting things. S0, I want t0 >ap0l0gize with th0se w0rking hard, the 0nly excuse I have is my infinite >ign0rance! ******* Don't worry! Consider what others have written ****** Thomas Jefferson (~1783): "Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong." Miguel de Unamuno (1913): "True science teaches, above all, to doubt and be ignorant." ****** Someone else wrote (paraphrased): "We are all ignorant --- just in different ways." Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ************************************************************************* * "The difference between real and unreal things is that unreal things * * usually last much longer." Pot-Shots #6728 * * Copyright, Ashleigh Brilliant --- used with permission * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:35:30 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: dvisrael Subject: Bee Behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have read with much interest everyones stories about why or how bees do what they do from a swarm. Last year I had six swarms. Two were up in a pine tree 8o feet up and were gone to who knows where in a few hours. I captured 4 of them. I put one swarm in a hive and they immediately went back to the parent hive. A couple of hours it came back out(I assume it was the same swarm) went to the same apple tree branch where I put them in the same hive and they stayed. Another swarm was captured and given to a friend. The last swarm was very small. Another friend wanted it for the queen. I put the swarm with the queen(i saw her in the bucket) with a screen over it. When the beekeeper arrived to get them we could not find the queen. I went back to the apple tree and there she was with a very few bees. I very carefully picked her up and put her on his nuc box, in she went and the bees followed her. Anyway, I don't know why bees do what they do, but they sure fun. Beeing your friend PS one of the swarms had a queen that did not mase or something and laid drones. Almost too late, I put a store bought queen and some bees and brood from another hive with them and they are now fine. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:13:07 +0100 Reply-To: Michael Haberl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Haberl Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony There is another relevant publication: Moritz RFA and Southwick EE 1992 Bees as superorganisms. An evolutionary reality. Published by Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg, New York. ____________________________________________________________________ Michael Haberl Zoologisches Institut der Uni Muenchen Tel: ++49 89 5902-444 Luisenstr. 14 Fax: ++49 89 5902-450 80333 Muenchen, Germany E-mail: haberl@zi.biologie.uni-muenchen.de ____________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Philosophy of 'stupid' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Maybe a single bee does not have much brain power but I think >it is important to regard the whole colony as a single individual >especially in terms of brain power. Phil, a single bee can learn to navigate a maze in only six times the length of time that it takes a rat to learn the same maze. Considering that the brain of the rat is several hundreds of times more massive than that of the bee, I have to agree with Ted Fischer that the bee brain and bee intelligence is a constant source of wonder for me. On this same note, although it is a matter of instinct, and not intelligence, I am constantly amazed that a single bee performs, at different ages, ALL the various tasks and associated behaviours that the hive requires. When you add this information to all the complicated sensory and response behaviour (including some senses like magnetoreception which we lack) you just have to marvel that it can all fit in that tiny brain. >According to a strong philosophical tradition, only genuinely linguistic >communication is intelligent... Well we certainly do have a long tradition of absurdly considering humans to be the "ultimate" creature and the standard by which to measure such things as intelligence. I suppose it makes it easier to exploit our fellow life forms. Now there have been several successful efforts to teach gorillas to communicate linguisticly. Does that mean they were not intelligent before? I would suggest that our inability to understand the non linguistic communication of other species is a sign of the limitations of OUR intelligence. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:50:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: an EZ frame wiring technique Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Someone on sci.agriculture.beekeeping asked about a simple method to wire frames. Here is my cheap and lazy technique, which usually works without trouble: I only use two wires across each sheet of foundation, to hold it straight and centered in the (deep) frame. So I only use the two center-most wire holes in the end bars. The upper portion of the sheet is anchored by the wedge in the top bar, and the lower portion is anchored by its fitting in to the bottom bar, and being fixed by the bees there as well. I hold the frame in my left hand, and with my right I "thread" the wire through the eyelets so I have two wires crossing the frame. Next, I start a brad (small nail) into the end bar, wrap the end of the wire around it a few times, and drive it in. Then I wiggle or snip off the pigtail sticking out from under the nail-head. So one end of the wire is anchored, and the wire passes across the frame twice and comes out of the end now facing "up" at me, and leads back to the spool. Now I grab the wire with my right hand, a short distance away from where it emerges from the end-bar hole, and tug firmly to take up any slack. Now the easy part: I set the opposite end bar against the edge of my work bench, and lean gently on the frame while pulling on the wire. What happens is, the frame bows, ever so slightly, and I take up the slack by pulling on the wire. NOW right away, while the frame is still under tension, I wrap the wire around another brad which has been set into the edge of the end bar near where the wire passes thru. A few quick wraps, then drive that 2nd brad in, and wiggle or snip the wire off. That's it. The wire is well tense enough for supporting the comb straight and firm. It helps to have a little V or groove cut in the edge of the work table, so that when you press the frame toward it (to slightly bow the frame), the wire won't get pinched between the far end bar and the edge of the table iself. I hope this description is adequate. It is very fast. Then I insert a sheet of crimp-wired brood foundation, with hooks, nail the top-bar wedge back in, and the frame is ready for the embedder. My cheap method is to set the frames with foundation out in the sun, or on the warm hood of my car, for very few minutes, just to warm slightly. Then I set each frame over a simple embedding board, and run the hand (spur-wheel) embedder across the wires. Works like a charm, and the resulting combs are just great. If the wire isn't taught enough, just start over, and lean on the frame a bit more next time. But not too much! The wires don't have to extremely tight, just straight and under firm tension. You should notice a low-medium singing note if you pluck them. I hope someone else will find this useful. -- JG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:49:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: applying terramycin in syrup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey gang, Does anyone medicate their free-thinking, group-loving, mentally-challenged bugs by adding terramycin to their syrup feeding in the spring? If so how much and how often? Also, I have heard some bugkeepers put 1 pint of bleach per 55 gallons of syrup to help fight chalk brood, anyone try this? Merry Christmas to all. God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:41:25 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Overmind or Group MInd of a Colony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Joel Govostes wrote: > What is of further fascination is that a colony is made up > of several sub-colonies. That is, the queen can mate with > a number of drones. So you end up with many sub-colonies, > each composed of sisters from a common drone-father. Yet, > the colony still works together. Here's an interesting further thought. It's fairly clear that workers pass on a maximum of their own genetic material by being nursemaids etc. for their queen sisters. That's what they get out of being 'slaves' for the queen. In a queenless colony, they will try to attract in a newly mated queen from elsewhere. What do they get out of this? They will live out their own personal lifespan. Any queen sistrs stand a fair chance withour without a new queen. Why attract in a 'alien' queen? Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:19:49 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Philosophy of 'stupid' In-Reply-To: <32AD0EE9.7D45@cc.umanitoba.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Phil Veldhuis wrote: > According to a strong philosophical tradition, only genuinely > linguistic communication is intelligent... FWIW, I too have strong reservationas about that. I've seen horses tamed by little more than body language -- the trainer behaving like the dominant mare in a herd. I watch veterinarians and dog trainers using body language to get dogs to do what they want and behave as they want. In some cases with dogs that have never really been controlled before. I watch falconers developing a relationship with their very wild charges. IMHO, communication is not only linguistic! To me, the question is how far down the scale we can reasonably consider these non-linguistic languages to be valid. I personally think that any communication greater than simply reflexive shows intelligence. Others may well be more circumspect. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 21:55:27 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Ap0l0gize In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Adrian Wenner wrote: > Don't worry! Consider what others have written ****** Add to those: "I know nothing but the fact of my ignorance" Socrates. "To ask and appear ignorant is a moments shame. To not ask and remain ignorant is a lifetime's shame". Miyamoto Musashi. Regards, -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:52:33 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Eunice D. Wonnacott" Subject: Re: guest book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ > >Thanks to those that have signed the guest book. I have increased to size >of the e-mail blank.This is one of the reasons I requested that people >sign,so I can get feed-back. Comments pro and con are appreciated. > Please explain the guest book. I must have missed that note. EDW> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 20:32:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: an EZ frame wiring technique Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Someone on sci.agriculture.beekeeping asked about a simple method to wire >frames. Here is my cheap and lazy technique, which usually works without >trouble: The way I handle wiring frames is by not wiring at all. Just pop in beeswax coated foundation. ****************************************************** * Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones (616)882-4456 * * BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones (616)882-7765 * * * * email b-man@aliens.com * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:57:59 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Barrett Subject: beekeeping history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone interested in beekeeping history, particularly how beekeeping pioneers transported bees across the oceans (eg. from Europe to the New World - North an South America, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific Islands) in sailing ships in the 19th century and earlier. I have source material on Australian and New Zealand 19th century beekeeping history from which I published 'The Immigrant Bees 1788-1898' in late 1995. I'm building up material for a second edition so all contributions are welcome. I'm currently researching the activities of beekeeper and missionary William Charles Cotton ('My Bee Book', 1842) in NZ in the 1840's through his unique and fascinating set of journals he wrote while in NZ. They contain many attractive hand drawings of Maoris, bee houses, scenery, people, maps, buildings. Anyone with biographcal material on Cotton please mail me. Regards, Peter Barrett, Springwood, New South Wales, Australia. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:05:33 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Allen Subject: Re: Message Headers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>We have seen a discussion in a Goat List about ....... The Goat list administrator changed the configuration of the list software to prefix the subject with "PGoat". It has made sorting the goat >> With the high volume of messages that the Bee-Line List generates we would like to put this idea out to the members of the list and the administrator. Is anybody else interested? I answered this suggestion by recommending the use of an email package like Eudora Pro. Such packages can filter incomomg e-mail by senders name (and More). One response was >Considering that most of us (in Bee-L) do not have Eudora Pro instaled, I Some one else said the Eudora Light could also filter messages by sender's name. Eudora light is freeware which is avalaibale on the WWW. If your current e-mail package does not help you very much, the get a copy Eudora Light. The URL is http://www.qualcomm.com Regards Chris Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:08:28 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Re: Message Headers Just another variable on Headers.... My JUNO (totally free, no ISP needed, free phone call even! (WWW.juno.com)) software DOES sort by senders name, but it is the address of the original poster : (ie Chis Allen ). The REPLY TO is the Bee-L, but not the Sender's name. I think Chris has a very good suggestion for those who receive enough E-Mail from different places for this to be a problem. A different software package seems to be the best soloution outside of altering the List format, and since it's FREE (always a concern to budget concious beekeepers!) it's a great deal. Does Eudora Lite require an ISP to operate? Anyone?? Thanks, Steve Creasy in Maryville, Tennessee, USA Prov. 24:13, 25:16 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:30:59 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: krengel lawrence e Subject: Re: Philosophy of 'stupid' In-Reply-To: <32AD0EE9.7D45@cc.umanitoba.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It is interesting that we suggest that a single bee is stupid, but as a society they are intelligent. I would suggest that in humans we the the opposite. The intellectual prowess of single individuals is considerable, while often the behavior of groups seems to lack intelligence. It almost seems that with bees group behavior makes some very sophisticated decisions... e.g., "the hive is too crowded and ther is enough forage... let's swarm... but half of you stay here with the new queen." Whereas in humans group decisions sometimes seem flawed. Consider the acts of congress (not intended to be facetious). Often when they set out to solve a problem, they solve a different... irrevelent problem. A single individual would be more single-minded and home in on the original problem. Or, consider the actions of a riot where a group often destroys their own possessions. Most individuals would not choose to do this. I'm not sure where this line of thinking leads. But it is interesting. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA Home of C. C. Miller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:29:57 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry Fries Subject: Re: Philosophy of 'stupid' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is interesting! When I offered communication as a sign of intelligence I was thinking about the famous bee dance. One bee returns to the hive and insructs some of the others . She will tell another bee what is of interest,where it is , how far it is from the hive, and in a way that we can understand. We can even create a little imitation communicator and direct the bees ourselves. They do not have a fifty thousand word vocabulary but it works for them. Who knows the bees may de able to understand each other better than humans understand each other.Humans think in words most of the time, but what about the person who is deaf and dumb? Is that person intelligent even though they cannot use words to think with? I sounds as though you may have bit off an awful lot to chew with this suject. If you dont mind I would like to read your thiesis Jerry Fries ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 21:54:18 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Message Headers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >> With the high volume of messages that the Bee-Line List generates we > would like to put this idea out to the members of the list and the > administrator. Is anybody else interested? > Some one else said the Eudora Light could also filter messages by sender's name. > > Eudora light is freeware which is avalaibale on the WWW. If your current > e-mail package does not help you very much, the get a copy Eudora Light. > The URL is http://www.qualcomm.com Pegasus does the same task very nicely and is rated as the top mail clent in Stroud's. It is also freeware. Moreover the mail client available with Microsoft Internet Explorer (also free) does the job too. Both are available for download at all the usual places including Tuucows and Strouds in 16 and 32 bit versions. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 00:33:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: applying terramycin in syrup > Does anyone medicate their free-thinking, group-loving, >mentally-challenged bugs by adding terramycin to their syrup feeding in the >spring? If so how much and how often? Yes, I use one 6.4 package of TM Soluble to 50 gallons of syrup in all sugar syrup. To be effective for EFB you must get it into the hive prior to the start of brood rearing. KR> Also, I have heard some bugkeepers put 1 pint of bleach per 55 >gallons of syrup to help fight chalk brood, anyone try this? Some do, but I have never tried it except in the hot summer and then I use it in their drinking water when I had control over all water intake to the hive. I have also used TM in the drinking water. Can not report any golden bullet results from the addition of any of these, including salt. I would not mix them in any case. KR> Merry Christmas to all. " DITTO " " ttul the OLd Drone Home of the Thanksgiving Turkey stuffed with HONEYNUT CHEERIOS "ButtHead the Cat LOVED it!" (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:31:09 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Conrad Berube Subject: pulque and other ento-alcohol lore (was Mayan bee god) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Someone (sorry can't remember who, I trashed my digest before I had a chance to reply) said that they had tried pulque in Mexico and had not experienced any narcotic effects. That modern pulque may not have been prepared in such a way as to extract the alkaloids from the maguey root-- otherwise Mexican officials would probably have taken a dim view of it being sold in the market ;-) (Similarly "chicha" is a drink traditionally made in the Amazon region of South America by the eldest women who chew the ingredients, predominantly corn, and then spit the slurry into containers where it is allowed to ferment into a mildly intoxicating brew-- but I have sampled only the modern equivalent that is prepared in a blender and served immediately-- that protocol runs into less hassles with the health code ;-) The maguey agave is also used in the preparation of tequila but I'm not sure if the juice is from the root or, more likely, from the pulp of the succulent leaves-- the "gusano de maguey" is a caterpillar that subsists exclusively on this agave and that is why the caterpillar is put into finer brands of the stuff-- as an indicator that real agave was used in the preparation. Anyway to get back to pulque, even it had its own god, Acan. For those interested, the modern derivatives of ancient Mayan ceremony surrounding the keeping of the native stingless bees is described in: Weaver, Nevin and Weaver, Elizabeth C. "Beekeeping with the Stingless Bee Melipona beecheii, by the Yucatecan Maya," Bee World, 1981. Vol. 62(1), pp. 7-18 - Conrad Berube " ` ISLAND CROP MANAGEMENT " ` 613 Hecate St. _- -_`-_|'\ /` Nanaimo, B.C. _/ / / -' `~()() V8N 1X5 \_\ _ /\-._/\/ (250)754-2482; fax (250)656-8922 / | | email: uc779@freenet.victoria.bc.ca '` ^ ^ website: http://vvv.com/~bwarner/^Z ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:11:01 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Theodore V. Fischer" Organization: The University of MIchigan Subject: Re: Philosophy of 'stupid' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler wrote: > >On this same note, > although it is a matter of instinct, and not intelligence, I am constantly > amazed that a single bee performs, at different ages, ALL the various tasks > and associated behaviours that the hive requires. When you add this > information to all the complicated sensory and response behaviour (including > some senses like magnetoreception which we lack) you just have to marvel > that it can all fit in that tiny brain. Yes, this is really an impressive performance by these little creatures. If you think about it, most other social insects have several more castes than the honey bee does, just in order to have some individuals who are specialized for different colony tasks: soldiers, nurses, etc. In this regard, I suppose that the honey bee would be considered to be not as evolutionarily specialized as termites and ants. But on the other hand, the variety of responsibilities each bee has makes this society much more interesting to me. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:42:27 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: dvisrael Subject: Re: Message Headers Comments: To: allend@internode.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > > >> With the high volume of messages that the Bee-Line List generates we > > would like to put this idea out to the members of the list and the > > administrator. Is anybody else interested? > > > Some one else said the Eudora Light could also filter messages by sender's name. Pleasc explain filter messages. What benefit can I get from this service? Thanks Beeing your friend ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:26:27 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Theodore V. Fischer" Organization: The University of MIchigan Subject: Re: beekeeping history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Barrett wrote: > > Anyone interested in beekeeping history, particularly how beekeeping > pioneers transported bees across the oceans (eg. from Europe to the New > World - North an South America, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific > Islands) in sailing ships in the 19th century and earlier. I have source > material on Australian and New Zealand 19th century beekeeping history > from which I published 'The Immigrant Bees 1788-1898' in late 1995. I'm > building up material for a second edition so all contributions are > welcome. > I'm currently researching the activities of beekeeper and missionary > William Charles Cotton ('My Bee Book', 1842) in NZ in the 1840's through > his unique and fascinating set of journals he wrote while in NZ. They > contain many attractive hand drawings of Maoris, bee houses, scenery, > people, maps, buildings. Anyone with biographcal material on Cotton > please mail me. I am fascinated by this post about immigrant bees. Is your book generally available to order from bookstores? I inquire because im my own family history, there is oral history passed down from my grandparents that my great-grandfather brought bees with him when he migrated from Germany to the US in the 1870's. I often wandered how this was done, and how anyone could have possible brought a bee colony over by sailing vessel, then transported it by wagon through the wilderness of those days. I just can't imagine it! So I would be very interested in your book. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:50:50 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: dvisrael Subject: Re: an EZ frame wiring technique MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirk Jones wrote: > > >Someone on sci.agriculture.beekeeping asked about a simple method to wire > >frames. Here is my cheap and lazy technique, which usually works without > >trouble: > > The way I handle wiring frames is by not wiring at all. Just pop in beeswax > coated foundation. Hi Kirk, How long beekeeping? Do you Extract? How many hives? Beeing your friend ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:20:45 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Re: an EZ frame wiring technique In-Reply-To: ; from "Joel Govostes" at Dec 11, 96 4:50 pm According to Joel Govostes: > > Someone on sci.agriculture.beekeeping asked about a simple method to wire > frames. Here is my cheap and lazy technique, which usually works without > trouble: > > I only use two wires across each sheet of foundation, to hold it straight > and centered in the (deep) frame. So I only use the two center-most wire > holes in the end bars. The upper portion of the sheet is anchored by > the wedge in the top bar, and the lower portion is anchored by its fitting > in to the bottom bar, and being fixed by the bees there as well. > > I hold the frame in my left hand, and with my right I "thread" the wire > through the eyelets so I have two wires crossing the frame. Next, I start > a brad (small nail) into the end bar, wrap the end of the wire around it a > few times, and drive it in. Then I wiggle or snip off the pigtail sticking > out from under the nail-head. > > So one end of the wire is anchored, and the wire passes across the frame > twice and comes out of the end now facing "up" at me, and leads back to > the spool. > > Now I grab the wire with my right hand, a short distance away from where > it emerges from the end-bar hole, and tug firmly to take up any slack. > Now the easy part: > > I set the opposite end bar against the edge of my work bench, and lean > gently on the frame while pulling on the wire. What happens is, the frame > bows, ever so slightly, and I take up the slack by pulling on the wire. > NOW right away, while the frame is still under tension, I wrap the wire > around another brad which has been set into the edge of the end bar near > where the wire passes thru. A few quick wraps, then drive that 2nd brad > in, and wiggle or snip the wire off. That's it. The wire is well tense > enough for supporting the comb straight and firm. > > It helps to have a little V or groove cut in the edge of the work table, > so that when you press the frame toward it (to slightly bow the frame), > the wire won't get pinched between the far end bar and the edge of the > table iself. > > I hope this description is adequate. It is very fast. Then I insert a > sheet of crimp-wired brood foundation, with hooks, nail the top-bar wedge > back in, and the frame is ready for the embedder. My cheap method is to > set the frames with foundation out in the sun, or on the warm hood of my > car, for very few minutes, just to warm slightly. Then I set each frame > over a simple embedding board, and run the hand (spur-wheel) embedder > across the wires. Works like a charm, and the resulting combs are just > great. > > If the wire isn't taught enough, just start over, and lean on the frame a > bit more next time. But not too much! The wires don't have to extremely > tight, just straight and under firm tension. You should notice a > low-medium singing note if you pluck them. I hope someone else will find > this useful. -- JG > I use the same technique, but I use a staple gun to anchor the wires-- I staple the end of the wire, then fold it back and staple agaijn. I also use staples at the edge of the frame holes, to keep the wire from digging into ,the frames. Then I pass an electrivc soldering iron over the wire to heat and embed it. FWIW Regards, fredE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:30:33 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jorge Euclides Tello Duran Subject: Re: Contacto inicial In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19961210112915.64af96fc@mailhost.hooked.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII HOLA ARMANDO, QUE BUENO ES SABER QUE EXISTEN COLOMBIANOS APICULTORES SUBSCRITOS A ESTE SERVIDOR. YO ESTOY HACIENDO EL DOCTORADO EN LA UNIVERSIDAD DE SAO PAULO EN LA CIUDAD DE RIBEIRAO PRETO. SOY APICULTOR DESDE HACE MAS DE 20 ANOS Y TENGO LA FORTUNA DE ESTAR ESTUDIANDO EN UNO DE LOS MEJORES CENTROS DE INVESTIGACION EN ABEJAS, DEL MUNDO. ESPERO SABER DE SU ACTIVIDAD COMO APICULTOR, PARA QUE INTERCAMBIEMOS IDEAS, OK? UN ABRAZO JORGE TELLO On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Armando G. Cuellar, Jr. wrote: > At 07:24 PM 12/9/96 -0800, you wrote: > > Hi f0lks: > > > > A c0uple 0f days ag0 I sent my intr0ducti0n t0 the list. I menti0ned > >that in Mexic0, beekeeping science was left behind. > > I have been receiving s0me e-mails fr0m pe0ple wh0 w0rks here, and I > >have t0 tell that m0st 0f them d0 quite interesting things. S0, I want t0 > >ap0l0gize with th0se w0rking hard, the 0nly excuse I have is my infinite > >ign0rance! > > Regards, > > Clemencia > > > Hola Clemencia: > > I am a Colombiano who just started beekeeping this year and have found BBE-L > to be a very useful resource. I wanted to pass on that my Uncle in Bogota > got me interested in doing this about twenty years ago when I visited him as > a teenager. What I have found through the INTERNET is that beekeepers exist > all over the world. Thank God. > > Regards, > > Armando Cuellar > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:41:18 -0600 Reply-To: mburns@abacom.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Burns Subject: perplexed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is my first winter with bees. setup I live in southern Quebec , about 20 miles from the New Hampshire border in USDA zone 4. This fall I fed my 2 hives fumagillan medicated syrup, covered the hives with black fiberboard and as per Richard Bonney I inversed the inner covers and added fiberboard on top to absorb the condensation and also provided ventilation. I placed a 3 foot high wind break 10 feet behind the hives on the NW side. The weather has been relatively mild recently, -4 to 0 degrees C(30 to 36 degrees F)with no wind. problem This morning I found the bottom boards covered in dead bees and other dead bees scattered in the snow in front of the hives. I even found the odd bee 10, 20, 30 feet in front of the hives. When I approached the hives I seen 2 bees fly out and off in the distance as if to forage (-4 degrees C and overcast). What gives? Michael ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:01:45 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: perplexed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Michael Burns is perplexed. > problem > This morning I found the bottom boards covered in dead bees and other > dead bees scattered in the snow in front of the hives. I even found > the odd bee 10, 20, 30 feet in front of the hives. When I approached > the hives I saw 2 bees fly out and off in the distance as if to > forage (-4 degrees C and overcast). > > What gives? Michael, Nothing to worry about. Dead bees on the bottom board in winter is expected. The mortuary bees are on winter break - that is to say during the winter the bees don't do the normal routine of removing dead bees from the hives. In fact, dead bees on the bottom board is another reason to provide upper entrances in your hives during winter. Some- times the dead bees can collect to such a depth that they block the bottom entrance preventing the live bees from making cleansing flights on warmer days. The bees you saw leaving "as if to forage" were most likely leaving to relieve themselves. Also, scattered bees around the hive is considered a good thing at this time of year. They were bees leaving the hive which did not make it back. The carcasses outside the hive are carcasses that aren't adding to the heap on the bottom board. It is normal to have bees die, summer or winter. What is different in the winter is that the dead bees aren't carried off and there is a white background around the hive making it easier for the beekeeper to see the dead bees. You will be amazed in the spring by the number of dead bees you will have to clean off your bottom boards, but the situation you describe is not a cause for concern. Although I don't think you have a problem, I have to offer a disclaimer that one can't make a correct diagnosis of a situation without actually seeing the situation. One symptom of tracheal mite infestation is for the bees to just up and leave the hive in mid-winter, marching off to oblivion. However, what you described sounds more like my first guess than a mass exodus. Given the care and preparations you took this fall, what you observed and described sounds to me like SOP and hopefully your bees are fine. I'm located about 3 1/2 hours south of Montreal, but the climatic conditions are pretty similar. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 07:54:50 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Instinct; was Philosophy of 'stupid' In-Reply-To: <32AFE844.576D@umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are many more alternatives to stupid and intelligent. Bees are instinctive and reactive. They react to pheremones. They re-act to weather and to crowding. We certainly don't understand how their reactions are ordered But I don't be;lieve that they reason as a human would. Nor do they consider learned reactions as a dog or a pig does. I agree that the hive is best considered a single organizm. Not because it really is but because it is the best way to understand what is happening. I wonder if there might be several discreet variations in the queen substance pheremone and the various other pheremones that probably run through the hive. I gues the one most of us are familiar with is the odor we can detect from angry bees. But do we have any idea how many more smell must be circulating through our bee hives that we can't detect? I wish Adrian Wenner would address communication. I don't believe any communication indicates intelligence. The bee can not lie. She can only react to stimulants. She can not consider alternatives. She is adorable but she is not smart. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:47:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Palm, Kevin R. (LLP)" Subject: Richard Bonney email address Hi all, Does anyone have an email address for Richard Bonney?? I was interested in writing to him about bee stamp collecting. Thanks, Kevin Palm Grafton, Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:52:33 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: adony melathopoulos Subject: Re: What's so bad about being stupid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Part of this post is reprinted from a personal letter to Allen Dick (so Allen you might find this boring to reread) With regards to the evolution of intelligence, I do not think lacking intelligance is anything to be looked down upon. I feel that intelligence is just one out of many strategies that organisms have evolved to make a living. There are some mighty stupid bacteria and viruses out there that are far more successful than anything our ape line has produced. So, it seems to me that being intelligent is nothing to really brag about. The aliens who who arrive to earth might in fact find intelligence boring, and be more interested in the bread molds than in us (especially if the aliens were themselves bread molds). For honey bees not to be as intelligent as us is really no insult to them. As far as comparing them to us, granted honey bees are fairly intelligent as far insects go, but I think our ancestry has invested much more heavily in intelligence than bees have. Sure honey bees have a language, but that does not mean they are intelligent. Yeast also use pheromones to communicate, and I don't think they are particularily intelligent (except when they are being used to make mead :) ). Being able to communicate a conscious thought is another matter (and maybe bees do this when they return from a foraging trip, but nobody knows that). I do not think that honey bees live simply from reflex (they are not stupid - although this a very value loaded word, and I give it out more from a subjective reaction than any objective conclusion). I do believe (from what I have read) that they have an incredible capacity to learn for a creature with a brain the size of a grass seed ('the brain of a bee is the size of a grass seed and is not made for thinking'- Karl von Frisch). Nonetheless, I think our behaviors rely a great deal more on learning and experience than the bees do though. Bees get around novel situations in ways other than learning. Flexible division of labour is one way to adapt to changes in the environment that requires very little experience on the part of the bee (they simply shift labour to where it is needed most - mediated not by smarts but likely by a very sensitive sensory-hormonal system that they are born with). I know that bees can learn many things, but I think if someone were to figure out a way to measure how much a being's behavior relys on learning, many mammals would score higher than honey bees. Many insects would score lower than honey bees. So were smarter, so what ? I don't think it is anything to brag about. We can't fly, our societies are not nearly as integrate as a hive, we can't walk on the walls, we don't undergo metamorphosis (at least not as severely as bees do), and we don't have cool compound eyes. I would love to have anyone of those characters, and in some ways, I feel evolution may have dealt us the short end of the stick. Hope everyones winter is going okay (or summer if your down in the southern hemisphere). Cheers Adony Melathopoulos Burnaby, British Columbia Canada ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:21:30 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: CR Johnson Subject: mapquest 12/12/96 1:14 PM http://www.mapquest.com Click on (Interactive Atlas) Click on (Find) Type your Address May the joy of Christmas be with you now and always. Love Chuch ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 15:25:25 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stuart E Grant Subject: Re: mapquest Allan, Since I have no browser I cannot try this; I thought you might like to. ...Stuart >http://www.mapquest.com > >Click on (Interactive Atlas) > >Click on (Find) > >Type your Address PS If your address doesn't work 'cause you're in the wrong country, try mine(then e-mail me the pretty picture eh? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 22:12:38 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hans-Ulrich THOMAS Subject: Philosophy of 'stupid' In-Reply-To: <32AD0EE9.7D45@cc.umanitoba.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >BTW, the bee-relevant sections of my thesis are basically complete, I >guess I could email it to anyone interested... > Phil, May I take you up on this offer. I would love to read what you have to say in your thesis about this subject. Thanks for your time and efforts. Best regards Hans ************************************************************** Hans-Ulrich THOMAS. Beekeeper & collector of books about: - bees and beekeeping - ants (yes these small little buggers!) - nature printing e-mail: hthomas@solid.phys.ethz.ch CompuServe: 100045,2556 Fax: ++41 1 633 10 77 ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 18:41:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: an EZ frame wiring technique Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Kirk Jones wrote: >> >> >Someone on sci.agriculture.beekeeping asked about a simple method to wire >> >frames. Here is my cheap and lazy technique, which usually works without >> >trouble: >> >> The way I handle wiring frames is by not wiring at all. Just pop in beeswax >> coated foundation. > >Hi Kirk, >How long beekeeping? Do you Extract? How many hives? >Beeing your friend Hi Mr. "beeing" I've been doing the bee thing for about 17 years. We run about 3,000 or better in Michigan,USA. We are using a Cook & Beals horizontal extracting system with the Bogey uncapper and conveyor system. Cappings are handled with a heat exchanger and spin-float. The spin float is totally cool. A note on the thread of honey house design. There was some discussion of multiple stories and I can see the merit, but...I like the one level plan for material handling. IMHO, the benefits outweigh the costs of pumps to move the honey. ****************************************************** * Sleeping Bear Apiaries/Kirk Jones (616)882-4456 * * BeeDazzled Candleworks/Sharon Jones (616)882-7765 * * * * email b-man@aliens.com * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:30:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: applying terramycin in syrup >Kelley Rosenlund wrote: > Does anyone medicate their free-thinking, group-loving, >mentally-challenged bugs by adding terramycin to their syrup feeding >in the >spring? If so how much and how often? > Kelley, I would hope not. Terra breaks down quickly when moist. Many people put it in the (oil-based) patties, but it can't be put in water. Gerry and the other Visels at Visel7@juno.com Winnebago, Illinois, USA > Also, I have heard some bugkeepers put 1 pint of bleach per 55 >gallons of syrup to help fight chalk brood, anyone try this? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:40:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD E BONNEY Subject: Re: Richard Bonney email address In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Kevin My address is rebon@ent.umass.edu Be happy to correspond re: stamps Dick Bonney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:50:23 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Philosophy of 'stupid' In-Reply-To: <32AD0EE9.7D45@cc.umanitoba.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, please send me a copy of your thesis related to bees. I would like to read it. Thanks Doug Henry Lockport Manitoba ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Carl H. Powell" Subject: Re: Group Mind of a Colon -=> Quoting Int:bee-l@cnsibm.albany.e to Watchman <=- >Discussion of Bee Biology,BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU,Internet writes: >>selecting a home-site In> Tim Sterrett wrote: ...> <<<<< Much interesting stuff clipped for bandwidth - follow this thred back >>>>> In> No less fascinating is the fact that once a swarm takes off and finds In> a new cavity in which to live, the bees "forget" about the parent hive In> location. In> If you try to move a hive or a bunch of supers some short distance In> from their original location, though, your bees will return en masse to In> that site. They are locked onto that location. Something mysterious In> happens in swarm-bees that causes them to rearrange their whole "map" In> of home and landmarks. Their reference point is no longer their former In> address, but the new site instead. It's like they have immediate In> autonomy and a "clean slate" once they are out of the parent hive from In> which they issued. In> Any info appreciated on this stuff. Many thanks, JWG This summer I found this out the hard way. I had to move my hive (I'm a beginner) about three feet in order to lower the hive stand. (I don't like working supers from a ladder!) The move was three to four feet to the right. Sure enough the bees were returning to the old location and having great problems finding the door. Also, more bees were still taking flight. While working on the stand I noticed that a bee passing within 3 ro 4 inches of the hive entrance would find its way in. Any greater distance and it would be ignored. After about twenty minutes I finished my changes and returned the hive to the old location, but now 18" lower. I saw the bees would fly up against the side of the hive at the old door height and then buzz up and down until they went in. normally about 30 seconds. All of the 'wandering lost' were back in the hive within 5 minutes. My question: Has anybody ever observed a hive swarm to a new hive of a distance less than two miles from the original hive? Is there a minimum distance beyond which bees automatically make a new map? Is it related to a change in the earths magnetic field by being moved/moving? That experiment where bees are placed in neighboring wine casks, one with a metal jacket surrounding it has fascinated me. The 'normal' cast has all combs paralell. The 'jacketed' cask (magneticly blocked) has combs built every which way. Watchman @qwick.net Carl Powell ... Warning: Do not reuse tagline. Discard safely after use. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 07:52:19 +0000 Reply-To: Janko.Bozic@uni-lj.si Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Janko Bozic Subject: How swarm selects one homesite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Bee-liners, Stan Sandler wrote: >I have read somewhere that the scout bees dance directions for the different locations they are exploring and that other bees are encouraged to investigate. When a "majority" of the scouts are dancing for a particular homesite that is appealing this might lead to the dance behaviour that you describe and the impetus to "take off". This is, I always felt, a most fascinating "democratic" example of sociality and hive mind, however, I no longer know where I read this, or whether it is indeed experimentally corroborated, or just someone's idea of what hive mind "should" be. < Hear are two references, first one is most relevant. Second one has some interesting thoughts about dance communication. Authors : Lindauer,M. Title : Schwarmbienen auf Wohnungssuche Source : Z.vgl.Physiol. 37:263-324 (1955) Authors : Lindauer,M. Title : Communication and orientation in honeybees Source : Monitore Zool.Ital. 20:371-379 (1986) Comment: Selection of homesite needs some more investigations. From naive point of view that could be example of how dance communication is working as a language in community decision. My hypothesis is that this is a result of competition of different arousal states of the dancers, that means, the state which induces most vigorous and long lasting dancing behavior weans in the swarm. We can expect that more bees are looking for homesite of the dancers, which attract more bees. It would be nice to verify this hypothesis. Lindauer results are also in favourfavour of this hypothesis even though they were explained differently. Janko ==================================================================== Dr. Janko Bozic University of Ljubljana Biotechnical Faculty, Department of Biology Vecna pot 111, p.p. 2995 1001 Ljubljana SLOVENIA tel. (386) 61-265-584, (386) 61-265-585 fax. (386) 61-273-390 e-mail: janko.bozic@uni-lj.si ==================================================================== SLOVENIA - Homeland of Carniolan Bee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 03:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MIDNITEBEE Subject: beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ Oh Boy! Here I go again! I got another "brilliant" idea.I am constantly asked by local candle stores and private citizens,if I have any beeswax.Since I do not,I would like to know if there are any beekeepers in North America, who would send me by e-mail,their price list? I would include their names on my web page. Is this a good idea? Midnitebee(Herb) P.S. I seem to have this problem about thinking to much.Can't wait for Spring to arrive.It's cold up here,snow is on the ground,bees are huddled in their houses,I miss the action of the bee yards,I must"bee"coming addictive to beekeeping. Maybe a new hobby? I don't think so!! Wishing all a glorious Holiday and a fabulous New Year. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Group Mind of a Colon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Let me throw out another question. Does a swarm try to find a new site some (minimum) distance away from the parent? How does this work out as regarding competition for available forage, etc. I have a dim recollection of reading somewhere that a swarm won't investigate potential home-sites that are too "close" to their origin. I wonder if anyone can provide some info or references. I have always presumed that swarms that arrive and occupy empty hives at my bee-yards have always come from some distance away, and not from my own hives there. Any comments appreciated. Thanks! JWG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:31:47 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey.Com Subject: Re: Group Mind of a Colon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel Govostes wrote: > > Let me throw out another question. > > Does a swarm try to find a new site some (minimum) distance away from the > parent? How does this work out as regarding competition for available > forage, etc. I have a dim recollection of reading somewhere that a swarm > won't investigate potential home-sites that are too "close" to their > origin. I wonder if anyone can provide some info or references. > > I have always presumed that swarms that arrive and occupy empty hives at my > bee-yards have always come from some distance away, and not from my own > hives there. Any comments appreciated. Thanks! > JWG Joel - The only thing I can say from my experience is that over the last couple of years I or my kids have seen swarms leave my hives to land on a tree or bush nearby. I have taken those swarms and hived them within 100' of the original hive and have never had one not accept the new hive or leave it. Whether that disproves the thought that a swarm won't investigate potential home-sites close to their origin isn't clear as they did not choose the new hive I put them in but were dumped in by me. On the other hand, none of them ever chose to leave on their own will assuming bees have wills. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:25:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: applying terramycin in syrup GV> I would hope not. Terra breaks down quickly when moist. Many people >put it in the (oil-based) patties, but it can't be put in water. Hi Gerry, This is not what beekeepers have reported and my own experience. Water soluble TERRAMYCIN (R) though not 100% stable in water is 100% effective for the bee diseases it is recommend for. The formula for bees, cows, chicken's and so on takes into consideration any downgrading that can be expected in its use.. In fact research work on this point in Canada not done by or for the manufacture showed that TM syrup fed bees in the fall and stored by the bees does contain the effective levels of active ingredient the next spring. It is true that if exposed to light in open water it will degrade faster then in a closed container protected from light and air. This would not make outside feeders as desirable as inside feeders. Any beekeepers who feeds bees large amounts of sugar syrup is missing a very inexpensive prophylaxis treatment for bee disease if he does not use TM in his syrup. Most beekeepers worry about AFB, but I can assure you that EFB can destroy a beekeeper faster then anything most will ever see in their bees if not controlled early in the brood rearing season, especially so for package beekeepers and in early honey flow areas in the south and west from sources as Citrus, Mesquite, and Sage. TM is effective in preventive treatment of both EFB and AFB. With AFB, TM works best if hives known to have disease are removed and burned. With a history of EFB all hives should be treated as early as possible, like in the fall and early spring. ttul the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... That the still murmur of the honey bee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 18:03:22 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: D Warr Subject: Underground Hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am thinking of building an insulated Brick built hive shelter either underground or set into a bank or the face of a cliff ) in the mountains of Southern France. The winter temperature drops to minus 20 Centigrade whereas the Summer temperature rises to more than 40'C. The motive in doing this is to keep the hive safe from the roaming cattle and horses which use this part of the world as rough grazing. I would not want them to knock the hives over in my absence. Any comments on Keeping hives underground ? David Warr Warrington Cheshire Northern England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 18:03:25 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: D Warr Subject: Two Queens.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can a colony have multiple Laying Queens either by accident,design or Natural inclination. I have heard of four separate colonies in the University of Cardiff, Wales(U.K)discovered in a swarm. I have heard that Dutch and American Beekeepers deliberately have colonies with two queens. Is this true and if so Why is it done ??????? David Warr Warrington Cheshire Northern England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:18:34 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Coming Soon to Your Neighbourhood: TM Resistant AFB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT American Foulbrood (AFB) is quietly shaping up -- once again -- to be a major beekeeping challenge. That is unless new antibiotics are approved in advance of the almost certain spread of mutant strains of this old scourge, or unless the spread is controlled by use of honey inspection and/or embargos combined with a thorough clean-up at the site of current outbreaks. Although there is much embargoing of worldwide trade in *bees* for fear of diseases and pests, for some reason I hear little talk of restricting or testing *honey* or *beeswax* being exported from the areas in South America that currently harbour Terramycin (TM) resistant AFB. While many of us discuss the potential for TM resistant AFB *developing* in Europe, the US, Canada, and other countries where TM is used, it is beginning to appear more likely that this type of AFB will be *imported* long before that naturally ocurs. Argentina is a major exporter of white honey, and their honey reaches Canada and the US -- and other major beekeeping destinations -- as well as non honey producing countries. Uneaten honey -- like any other food -- is often discarded for various reasons into open garbage collection sites throughout cities and the country where bees may happen upon it and carry it home. The first you or I, as beekeepers, will learn about the arrival of this new challenge is that suddenly a yard will break down with AFB -- in spite of normal control measures. It will appear to be normal AFB and not taken too seriously by those of us who see isolated cases of AFB occasionally in yards where where management has slipped up. Since we are accustomed to being able to treat and see it quickly disappear, by the time we realise that it cannot be controlled with TM it will have been spread throughout the entire outfit, and perhaps the entire beekeeping neighbourhood. Many crops and much equipment will be lost before it is brought under control. This mutant AFB seems -- so far at least -- to be regarded by beekeeping scientists and the beekeeping community more as a curiosity than the serious and imminent threat it really is. I can see good reasons to put worldwide pressure on to limit the spread of this potential scourge while it is still relatively contained. The costs to worldwide beekeeping of doing nothing will be immense. Perhaps purchase and destruction of equipment in the affected area is a solution? Ultra filtering of any honey showing bacterial spores? Eradication of AFB by use of sulfa or other effective drugs in conjunction with very strong monitoring by government or non-governmental agencies? Whatever solution is chosen, a serious attempt must be made to aid, not punish the beekeepers who are presently combatting this new disease both in order to enlist their co-operation and to strengthen their efforts, and for reasons of equity. At any rate, strong resistance to import of any honey from the affected regions that can be *proven* to be contaminated and pressure from the world beekeeping community may be required to limit this outbreak. Additionally, assistance in the form of inspection, scientific study and information, as well as funds may be required to determine if the variant AFB can be eradicated permanently in its place of origin before it spreads. IMO anyhow. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:24:17 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Two Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT D Warr queries: > > Can a colony have multiple Laying Queens either by accident,design or > Natural inclination.... > This topic has been discussed on BEE-L before in: BEE-L LOG9402, BEE-L LOG9403, BEE-L LOG9404, BEE-L LOG9406, BEE-L LOG9407, BEE-L LOG9410, BEE-L LOG9502, BEE-L LOG9503, BEE-L LOG9505, BEE-L LOG9507, BEE-L LOG9508, BEE-L LOG9509, BEE-L LOG9510, BEE-L LOG9512, BEE-L LOG9601C, BEE-L LOG9602D, BEE-L LOG9603D, BEE-L LOG9604D, BEE-L LOG9605A, BEE-L LOG9605B, BEE-L LOG9605C, BEE-L LOG9606B, BEE-L LOG9606C, BEE-L LOG9607C, BEE-L LOG9608D, BEE-L LOG9609A, BEE-L LOG9611A, and BEE-L LOG9611B. Extracts from those logs total almost 4000 lines. Because it's the Yuletide season and because I would like to gage the interest level, I'm making a one time offer to send the extract to all who E-Mail me personally that they would like to receive a copy. Please respond to me personally and spare the list! Understand my work day is close to over and I'll be gone for the weekend. I'll address all requests Monday morning. Happy weekend, happy holidays! Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:51:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: swarms, travel distance JG>Does a swarm try to find a new site some (minimum) distance away from the >parent? How does this work out as regarding competition for available >forage, etc. I have a dim recollection of reading somewhere that a swarm >won't investigate potential home-sites that are too "close" to their >origin. I wonder if anyone can provide some info or references. Hi Joel, I can't give you any scientific reference but I have seen hives swarm out of one hive in my own apiaries and into another hive in the same apiary, more then once. I have also had them take up open air residence between two hives, and in the space under the hives. JG>I have always presumed that swarms that arrive and occupy empty hives at my >bee-yards have always come from some distance away, and not from my own >hives there. I am sure that swarms can cover several miles and that there are "swarm parking or congestion areas" that swarms migrate to. I also believe that swarms will naturally follow certain paths of travel, like down stream from one elevation to a lower one. All of the above is from personal observation and not scientific research. The problem with research in flight activity is that it assumes that all apiary sites are the same and they are not. One of the most interesting observations I can recall is a queen bank hive I kept in the driveway in front of my honey barn. For several weeks all the bees would leave that hive and make a giant swarm on a fig tree maybe 120 feet away. They would do this at about the same time everyday and come back after an hour or two of hanging out so to say. They would leave only a few hundred bees in the hive to care for the caged queens but enough that none were harmed by the mass exit. The first time I observed this it did give me some anxious moments as the queen bank always contained several hundred queens. I never did find a queen with the swarm and the hive never showed any signs of having a laying queen other then the one's caged for later use. ttul the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Santa Savers http://software.cavecreek.com/xmas_save.zip ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 20:24:29 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Re: Group Mind of a Colon Discussion of Bee Biology,BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU,Internet writes: Has anybody ever observed a hive swarm to a new hive of a distance less than two miles from the original hive? Honeybees frequently swarm at my home and take up residence in empty bee equipment stored in my backyard. Someone else will have to post the minimum distance that a new home has to be from the old colony. Tim Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu 39*55'N 75*33'W ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 22:08:20 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Glyn Davies Subject: Re: Two Queens.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi David! At 18:03 13/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Can a colony have multiple Laying Queens either by accident,design or >Natural inclination. > > I have heard of four separate colonies in the University of Cardiff, >Wales(U.K)discovered in a swarm. > >I have heard that Dutch and American Beekeepers deliberately have colonies >with two queens. Is this true and if so Why is it done ??????? > Quotes from Ron Brown: "More honey from less equipment" "Automatic Re-queening every year" "Control of swarming" "Stronger, Healthier Colonies" "Best preparation for the Heather" "Option of Increasing Stocks" I have tried it but things do go wrong quite easily. >David Warr >Warrington >Cheshire >Northern England Try to get hold of the pamphlet "A Simple Two-Queen System" by Ron Brown He published it privately in 1980. BBNO may still have it. Ron is at 20 Parkhurst Road, Torquay, Devon. But I am sure some one in Cheshire BKA has a copy you could borrow. Are you a member? There is sure to be an Association Library. You know that swarms often contain several virgin queens. However I don't think these can be considered separate colonies in one swarm. Of course separate fresh swarms can be thrown together to make a large one. The bees just select one queen. Another example of advanced decision making!> Regards, Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Spitz & the Sanderson Family Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FAQ BEES FLight Speed: 8 MPH LOADED 8 LOADED 15 MAX. RANGE 2 MI 8000 ACRES 10 MI MAX NECTAR COLLECTING 50-80% OF FLYING BEES ARE Collecting 100-1500 VISITS PER LOAD 1-24 TRIPS /DAY 36-50 MICROLITERS / LOAD 50MICROLITERS /1 EYEDROPPER DROP 5-150 MIN/LOAD FULL Load is 85% OF BEES WEIGHT 150 LBS.=13 ROUND TRIPS TO THE MOON! pollen COLLECTING 15-30% OF FLYING BEES 8-100 VISITS/LOAD 1-50 TRIPS/DAY 6-200 MIN/LOAD FULL LOAD IS 35%OF BODY WEIGHT NURSE VISITS 143-1300 BEES FEED EACH LARVAE 650 BEES CAP THEIR CELLS 60 bees clean This was copied from The Beekeeper's Hand book byD Sammataro ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 20:24:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Coming Soon to Your Neighbourhood: TM Resistant AFB? HI all, Fall has been great here in California and we are having a early Green Season, with above normal rains and temperatures, no bee clustering yet, which does normally bring spring dwindling and weak hives come the first bloom which is just weeks away in the early costal areas. Back on the tread: AD>American Foulbrood (AFB) is quietly shaping up -- once again -- to >be a major beekeeping challenge. That is unless new antibiotics are Not true here yet, and I have some doubts if it is something beekeepers should worry about as most beekeepers still remove the colonies that do show resistance to what ever they are using. TM is the only legal treatment in California, but there are other products that could be used if and when they are registered for use. I am not challenging the one (1) paper from South America, or even the similar papers from Europe as long as beekeepers practice some common sense and remove the infected comb, (a minimum effort), there is no worry that I can see from this view point. I would add, but not in detail as I believe that the information has been presented before, "the Laboratory and Field Studies" has been done on the natural antibiotic (G), TYLOSIN, which is effective at very low dosages against AMERICAN FOULBROOD disease. Can't say how it would work on the Canadian or any other strains of the same disease, if you believe that there are such animals. I am not all that sure, as I believe that there are real environmental considerations to the development and spread of AFB and it is more a beekeeper's disease then the plague some would make it out to bee. This in no way is to state that if any beekeeper does not take care of his bees that they will not die, and if they have active AFB they will die because of it. ttul the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Vereniging tot Bevordering van de Bijenteelt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:20:49 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eduardo Braunstein Subject: Re: Two Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > D Warr queries: > > > > Can a colony have multiple Laying Queens either by accident,design or > > Natural inclination.... > > > > This topic has been discussed on BEE-L before in: (...... Aaron: I would very much appreciate your sending me the extract. Thank you very much ! Best regards, Eduardo Braunstein ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: RE>TM Resistant AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: >American Foulbrood (AFB) is quietly shaping up -- once again -- to >be a major beekeeping challenge. That is unless new antibiotics are >approved in advance of the almost certain spread of mutant strains >of this old scourge, or unless the spread is controlled by use of >honey inspection and/or embargos combined with a thorough clean-up at >the site of current outbreaks. This is certainly not an unexpected development, with the widespread usage of antibiotics. However, your report is the first I've actually heard of it. Could you give a reference or two about where one can read up on it, please? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:10:28 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: RE>TM Resistant AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Allen Dick wrote: > >American Foulbrood (AFB) is quietly shaping up -- once again -- to > >be a major beekeeping challenge... > This is certainly not an unexpected development, with the widespread > usage of antibiotics. However, your report is the first I've actually > heard of it. Could you give a reference or two about where one can read > up on it, please? Sure, here is a reference: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis96/apaug96.htm#2 You'll find more by wandering around the site. I should mention to any that do not receive APIS by subscribing to APIS-L, that they are missing out on a very good resource. Just sent email to LISTSERV@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu Saying only SUBSCRIBE API-L Your Name (Where you substitute you own name). Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art -- End --