Decimated bees get help from hobbyists (01/28/97, The N&O)

Date sent: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:23:32 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8c)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9701E" To: "W. Allen Dick" Forwarded by: Date forwarded: Sat, 1 Feb 97 13:09:25 EST Forwarded to: allend@mail1.internode.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:02:53 -0600 Reply-To: dvisrael@earthlink.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Israel Subject: Decimated bees get help from hobbyists (01/28/97, The N&O) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------334F2D214734" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------334F2D214734 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.nando.net/newsroom/nao/nc/012897/nc03_988.html Thought someone might take interest in this article. Don --------------334F2D214734 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="nc03_988.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nc03_988.html" Content-Base: "http://www.nando.net/newsroom/nao/nc/0 12897/nc03_988.html" Decimated bees get help from hobbyists (01/28/97, The N&O)

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Tuesday
January 28, 1997

Decimated bees get help from hobbyists

The Associated Press

CHARLOTTE -- State agricultural agents in North Carolina and South Carolina are hoping some backyard gardeners will begin considering a hobby that has been largely forgotten but is essential to crops and flowers.

It's beekeeping, and agricultural agents say raising bees has never been more important after populations were decimated in recent years by two parasitic mites.

That has left many gardeners with a lot less of the squash, cucumbers, melons and other crops they once enjoyed in abundance.

While scientists wrestle with a solution to the honeybee's widespread problems with mites, Cooperative Extension Service agents like Bill Skelton are doing everything they can to get more people to take up beekeeping, The Charlotte Observer reported Monday.

"There has been an increased interest over what it was three or four years ago," said Skelton, who works in Mecklenburg and Gaston counties. "It's due to a lack of pollinators in gardens. People want to have their squashes, cucumbers, apples, all the crops they're used to enjoying."

In an effort to increase the number of beekeepers, county agents in York County, S.C., and Mecklenburg County, as well as beekeeping organizations, are offering classes to teach people how to handle the insects known as much for the painful stings as their tasty honey.

Bob Blackwelder, a past president of the N.C. Beekeepers Association, estimates there are 2,400 beekeepers in the state, almost all of them hobbyists who "enjoy fooling with the bees."

"You're not in charge of the bees," he said. "You have to work with the bees, understand how they think and act. It's not a master-type relationship."

Blackwelder points out that while a human can train a dog to obey commands, a honeybee is immune from that.

"Beekeeping is part science and part art," he said. "The art side is beginning to think like a bee. You look at things from the bee's perspective."

Henry Nunnery, a Clemson Cooperative Extension Service agent in York County, S.C., says the hobby is especially suited to gardeners, who can derive immediate benefits.

"This is a good hobby for the gardener, and a good science lesson for youth," Nunnery said. "It is a complement to the vegetable garden and in some cases, a necessity. One-third of our food supply depends on pollinators."

Nunnery said beginners can join a network of beekeepers.

Raymond Pursley, 66, took up beekeeping as a boy, but the hive died out, he recalled, because of his lack of knowledge.

Decades later, after his retirement, he decided to try again. He now has seven hives, some of them parked in other people's vegetable gardens, where they pollinate crops as well as make the honey Pursley collects and sells.

--------------334F2D214734-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:48:16 -0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Surviving Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Black > The point I am making is that it is not, and this is because there is a > very indirect relationship between mite population and colony mortality. My comment included not only survival, but good health. Strong healthy colonies that may be infected by mites, or any other disease/pest, is what we want. For a scientific study, you are quite right. "comparative" monitoring is essential. But, breeding from survivors is a means to develop resistant colonies. If they are resistant, who cares if there are mites or not. I am assuming that simple survival is not the end of the matter. > To measure the efficacy of a Varroa control there must be a way of assaying the Varroa > population; Here is the difference in our point of view. I am suggesting breeding from these 'resistant' colonies to develop bees that can ignore the mites. Resistant bees are not a means of control. They control things themselves. I don't think we disagree, we are just saying different things. This is what I had in mind when I suggested breeding the AFB for desirable qualities. Regards from Alaska, - - - - - - - - - - - - "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:18:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Carl H. Powell" Subject: Re: Surviving Varroa -=> Quoting Int:bee-l@cnsibm.albany.e to Watchman <=- In> From >Go see our web site - contains part of the English translation of the >German book, Varroa Resistance by Alois Wallner. Mr. Wallner, a >commercial beekeeper has been breeding toward Varroa resistance since >1989 and now has some breeder colonies that have survived untreated for >five full years. -- >Jack & Susan Griffes >Country Jack's Honeybee Farm >Ottawa Lake, MI 49267 >USA >e-mail Griffes@ix.netcom.com >Web page http://www2.netcom.com/~griffes In> Would anyone agree that this (surviving untreated) is not the In> criterion for success. Surely we would want to monitor the mite In> population. How could this be estimated without using a chemical In> knockdown and stopping the trial ? In> -- In> Dave Black In> , In> Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. Would using two identically furnished brood boxes set up as two hives in the same site, both containing one complete frame of drone comb, one containing 'commercial' Italians and the other "survivors" qualify as a true test structure? (Multiplied by how ever many tests would be needed to prove certainty.) I see this setup with the beekeeper using and recording results from the '100 brood cell occurance rate' test done regularly every 30 or so days for a year to record successive 'generations'. Comments? Carl Powell watchman@qwick.net Tidewater, Va. ... Ifyoucanreadthisyouspendwaytoomuchtimefiguringouttaglines ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:25:44 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: birds On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:42:42 -0500, Jinnah Edun wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Poster: >Jinnah Edun Subject: birds >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Sorry to go off topic, but any one have any bird lists? For those of you less familiar with the Internet possibilities here is the way how to obtain the list of discussion groups of your interest: Send an e.mail message to LISTSERV@EARN.CVUT.CZ subject: leave blank text: List Global ....... where ....... is the subject of your interest, e.g. Birds, Bees, Fish ect. Don't add anything els, the signature either. Much success, Vladimir (ptacek@sci.muni.cz) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:12:53 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: colonies surviving varroa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" writes >The key difference seems to be that 50 to 60 % > of these varroa in worker brood are infertile. If I remember rightly this infertility is one of the features that allows A.cerana and the mite to co-exist. > > By the way, although many of these discussions use "tolerance" and > "resistance" (to varroa) interchangeabley, it seems to me that > tolerance implies no effect on the (former) harmful agent, while > resistance would include (but maybe not be limited to) mechanisms > that inhibit the source of the harm. > Is this distinction consistent with usage of these terms in > parasitology? > > If so, it seems to me we should be referring to varroa being > selected showing "tolerance" to fluvalinate, rather than > "resistance" Yes, resistance and tolerance are being used very loosly. Correct me if I wrong but resistance is an attribute of a population while tolerance is an attribute of an individual. Tolerant mites may or may not breed to produce a resistant population. -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:22:36 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Pearce Organization: Dept of Biochemistry Subject: Old engine carcinogens Dear all, I could not let this one pass, (I couldn't believe what I was reading). Old engine oil is a most horrible substance, containing a nasty concoction of carcinogens caused by the incomplete combustion of petrochemicals, please please, NOBODY use this in a hive or any other a food related context. Yours Dr Steve Pearce Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:50:43 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: Surviving Varroa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Ed Levi writes >There are ways of getting pretty accurate guesstimates of varroa >infestation levels without using chemicals: Natural drop on sticky boards >would be one way. I beleive, ether roll as a percentage of colony >population times 5 (for 20% being exposed) would be more accurate. >Thirdly, I'm sure you could accertain fair comparative measurements from >trapping (using consistant aged drone brood as the trap). This later one sounds interesting, I'll have to think about it. The difficulty with using the other two (its obvious with hindsight) is that you can't simply multiply by 5 (or whatever). The factor varies with the amount of brood and so when the measurement is taken. Its not insumountable, just more tricky. Sometimes you measure no natural mite fall and its not because there are no mites but because the b*****s are breeding in the brood cells and not falling off! -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:44:23 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Resisting Varroa In-Reply-To: <199701290648.VAA23417@calvino.alaska.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Here is the difference in our point of view. I am suggesting breeding from >these 'resistant' colonies to develop bees that can ignore the mites. >Resistant bees are not a means of control. They control things themselves. > I don't think we disagree, we are just saying different things. You're right, we were talking about slightly different things. But this idea of 'resistant' colonies concerns me. I am uneasy about the idea that we could 'make' bees that would 'control' mites independantly of what the mites might 'do', which is a common thread of many of the posts I see. The relationship between a host and its parasite is a two-way thing and both have the ability to change it. It is not true for example to talk about A.cerana 'resisting' the varroa mite, they *co-exist* successfully. Look at some of what we think we know about the mite and cerana. 1. One of A. ceranas adaptations enables it to detect and remove the reproducing mite in worker cells. 2. There is some feature of the reproducing mite that allows the worker bee to detect it, therefore in worker brood it has 'learnt' not to reproduce. 3. It is thought a substance in the worker bee's pupal body inhibits the female mites egg production. 4. If the mite is detected in drone cells the bee's can't or don't remove it. 5. The effect of the mites on the worker bee population is small, and it does'nt matter to the bees if the drones are parasitised as they will function perfectly well. 6. The mites first egg must be laid high in the cell to prevent it being damaged by a mobile pupa and A. cerana the male mite death rate is much higher than in A melifera, (84% vs 24%) possibly because of later mobility of the cerana bee pupa disturbing the first egg. The high mortality of the male egg is a 'good thing' as far as the mite is concerned because it reduces the amount of inbreeding in its population and its a 'good thing' as far as cerana is concerned because the mite population is kept lower. Kerry Clark's (Colonies surviving varroa) post talking about differences between strains of varroa is also an indication to me that, never mind the specifics, it is an inter-relationship we are dealing with and one we don't know enough about. The consequence of that is that selective breeding in this senario is quite different from selective breeding for say, yellow bees or flying range, and much more difficult to make successfull. We are I guess helping the bee to evolve faster than the mite but I would be tempted to change the mite not the bee. -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:44:32 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Uganda move Comments: To: bbutler@telusplanet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Allen Dick for Bryan Butler writes.... >I am wondering if there are by-products that can be made from very dark >honey. Uganda has a great deal of dark honey and my understanding is >that this is not too marketable. Maybe that is an incorrect assumption. >I wondered if we could break it down into basic sugars or something >which could then be more marketable. Tropical Forest Products (David Wainwright, UK) was set up to import honey from Zambia and Tanzania to the UK. These too were considered 'industrial' and not marketable because they were so strong and dark. Luckily for the beekeepers everyone was wrong. The company is supported by a fair-trade organisation 'Shared Interest' at and may be able to contact TFP for more information. >Almost all the honey (maybe all) in Uganda is produced in traditional >or semi-traditional hives. This means it is harvested in chunks of comb >that need to be crushed (I think??) before extraction. Do you have any >comments? Only that its usually regarded as a good thing because the wax is a valuable product and it makes Africa one of the largest producers of beewax. We in the west are 'living off' their wax ;-) For all sorts of information that may help contact Bees for Development <100410.2631@compuserve.com> -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:56:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Kelsey Subject: Shallow Plastic Foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have some old shallow supers that will need foundation this year, and because of the discussion on Bee-L I'd like to use plastic. But with the exception of Duragilt, plastic foundation for shallow supers seems to be non-existent. Pierco only makes deep and medium. Mann Lake carried shallow Permadent last year, but no longer list it in their catalog. Do few people use shallow supers today? Does anyone know where I can still find Permadent or other plastic foundation with molded cell indentations? Thanks, Tim Timothy W. Kelsey Dept of Agricultural Economics tkelsey@psu.edu & Rural Sociology (814) 865-9542 Penn State University http://www.aers.psu.edu/f/kelsey.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:25:36 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: "Fact" sheet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To all BEE-L subscribers: I recently posted a "fact" sheet about varroa mites intended to inform a congressman about just how serious a problem we face with regard to pollination of our crops. A person I like and respect very much posted a private note to me (thankfully privately --- rather than "flaming" me over the BEE-L net), indicating that he felt many of my "facts" about the spread of varroa mites were wrong. His input, I must confess, took me aback, since we had gathered input during a three year period from a great many people (including him) for the article we published last June in BEE CULTURE. Up until now no one has indicated that the information we included therein was in error. I caution everyone, therefore, to use with caution my previous posting while they write their congressmen. Please double check the facts you use. ******* I asked this person to write and distribute his own fact sheet, one that could be used by everyone for the purpose I intended. Unfortunately, he leaves momentarily on a several month trip and probably is too pressed for time for such a task. ******* Editorial: I guess that is one of the problem we face with "facts." For example, I now have to draft a reply to a letter that appeared in the January issue of BEE CULTURE in order to correct a rather complete misrepresention of points I published in the October issue of that journal. Actually, that will be sort of fun, since the mistakes made were so egregious. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "THIS LIFE may be the only chance you'll ever get to show what * * you can do." Pot-Shots #6923 * * Copyright, Ashleigh Brilliant --- used with permission * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:04:34 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Joel W. Govostes" Subject: Re: Shallow Plastic Foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Tim: I've never seen the plastic molded stuff for shallows, now that you mention it. How many shallows do you have? I had a couple dozen a few years ago, as out in Massachusetts the hobbiests generally used just shallows. Out here in NY (and probably since in MA), the preference is usually for the mediums, which hold substantially more honey per box, still without being so heavy as a deep. Anyway, my shallows ended up being converted to cobana (round section) - depth supers, by cutting them down on a table saw. Others were converted to mediums by nailing a rim to the bottom, making them 6 5/8" deep. It's nice to have all the supers uniform, and it can really expedite things like returning newly-extracted frames or sorting combs. Seeing as how frames are CHEAP (commercial grade will run only 35-40 cents apiece in lots), why not just change them to mediums, and supply plastic foundation OR, perhaps better still, the one-piece plastic frame&comb units? You can just ditch the shallow frames (good kindling!) or save them for spare parts. They really don't hold much honey, as the top bar is so thick in comparison to the comb depth. On the other hand, the plastic frame units hold even more honey than regular medium frames, as the plastic "top" and "bottom" bars of the molded frames are very thin. You end up with substantially more cells (and volume) than with any wooden frames. Food for thought anyway. I just figure if you are going to put all the effort into installing fdn in the shallows, maybe it would be more feasible to change em to mediums while you're at it. That's what I've done, anyway, and I've found it beneficial. Best wishes for 97 Joel Govostes Freeville, NY (near Ithaca / Cayuga Lake) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:41:43 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Von Frisch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" <<<<< Is Karl von Frisch still around? Are these methods published elsewhere? Is there anyone out there on the web that has knowledge of this method that can share it with us?>>>>>>>> Sorry. He passed on in 1982, at the ripe old age of 96. The book you mention is the text of three lectures he gave in America in 1949. His main work was published in 1965, The Dance Language and Orientation of Bees, over 500 pages of small print with several hundred references. Probably out of print now but available in libraries and perhaps in the Wicwas Press, assuming you live in America. Try Ljconnor@aol.com Sid P. _________________________________________________________________ Sid Pullinger Email : sidpul@aladdin.co.uk 36, Grange Rd Compuserve: 100343.1216@compuserve.com Alresford Hants SO24 9HF England ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:05:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Coloring books etc... In-Reply-To: <199701290447.NAA03069@ykt0.attnet.or.jp> from "Bill and Kim Fasser" at Jan 29, 97 01:33:13 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: The Honey Board puts out sheets of pictures that can be used for coloring. Some appear on our web page and can be downloaded. As I have indicated several times, we would be glad to publish any images that people would like to donate for posting for kids. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:59:15 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: resisting varroa MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dave Black wrote, > "I'd be inclined to select the mites not the bee." I agree that it would be easier, and there's also the possible strategy of importing selected non pathogenic mites, but it's not obvious to me that such mites (either selected in place, or imported) would solve the varroa problem. They would (by definition) have a lower reproduction than the pathogenic mites. I suppose their reproductive success could be higher at a certain scale, if the high reproductive ones' success was reduced as they killed their host bee colonies. It's just hard for me to have confidence in such a mechanism, considering how well varroa spread across the landscape. It would be an interesting experiment to mix the 2 varieties (such as introducing "pathogenic" varroa into a population such as the one Buchler described in Austria, to see if one variety would readily be naturally selected. And.. what about the offspring of matings between the two varieties? Super-varroa? Regards Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (250) 784-2231 fax (250) 784-2299 INTERNET kclark@galaxy.gov.bc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:31:00 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Beeworks Subject: Re: Bees In-Reply-To: <32EEB8FC.469A@open.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 28 Jan 97 at 18:42, whithb wrote: Catalogues for beekeeping supplies > My father is interested in obtaining bees for his hives that he recently > aquired and rebuilt. The only supplier for bees has gone out of > business. > If their is a supplier in the Oregon area could you mail him the > information? > His address is: > Max Whitaker > 4200 Victor Point RD. > Silverton OR 97381 >whithb@open.org I received this off the Web! Is there anyone in that area prepared to help? ********************************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. L3V 6H1 David Eyre, Owner. Phone/Fax 705 326 7171 Dealers for E.H.Thorne & B.J.Sherriff UK http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:50:40 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: Apis cerana hive ventilation Comments: To: gotis@evbhort.uoguelph.ca In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Gard Otis writes >Dave, > I would not conclude that cerana and mellifera are the same with >respect to this behaviour and "Ruttner is not right". >If you watch mellifera, you will see the >vast majority of them facing head into the hive. And if you look at >cerana or koschevnikovi, you will see the opposite. There IS A >DIFFERENCE, statistically. I'm so glad you said that. Then the fun remains, why is there a difference ? >Perhaps one could create specific hive environments >that would cause the bees (mellifera) to fan in in some situations, >and out in others, and with a mixed strategy in yet others, and that >would shed light on the question. Whether that would help to answer >the difference between mellifera and Asian species (since climates >they evolved in are rather different) is uncertain. Ventilation, whether this or in over-wintering, seems to have had very little attention focused on it. I don't really appreciate how the climates are different although of course they are. (Presumably the 'climate' inside the hives are the same?) Earlier you asked if I thought one method would be more efficient than the other and I said don't know but would assume both to be equally efficient since they are trying to achieve an optimum. Maybe there is another reason they face out? The story I heard was that A.cerana did this so it could keep a better eye out for predators approaching, but as cerana doesn't seem more defensive (isn't it more docile?) I don't believe that one either. -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:04:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Resisting Varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Dave and All: >Look at some of what we think we know about the mite and cerana. That was a very interesting list of adaptations in a. cerana. I was surprised that they do not seem to have any grooming behaviour (I am ignorant on this topic). A posting to the bombus-l (by Diana Sammataro if my memory serves) noted that when bombus colonies were artificially innoculated with varroa mites they chewed the legs off them. She said that the sound of the chewing was audible to the observers (that would be nice :). >but I would be tempted to change the mite not the bee. Given the list of adaptations you mentioned, I might agree. But if we could develop bees with a grooming adaptation it might even have other benefits. It would seem to me that this is not far outside the realm of possibility, as bees *do* groom themselves, and on occasion they groom others (if they are sticky, for example). Maybe we have to change the mite to make it taste better :) . I wonder if the reason that bombus has this ability and a. cerana doesn't (despite its long association with the mite) is size related. Regards, Stan on Prince Edward Island where there is now a new bridge about 12 km. long for the varroa infested bees to fly across. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:06:26 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Grease Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I went to buy some vegetable shortening yesterday to make up some grease patties. In the process, I read the list of ingredients. One brand (Sunspun) had -- in addition to Hydrogenated vegetable oil -- dimethylpolysiloxane, and another (National Bicot) had sorbitan tristearate. They did not have Crisco at the outlets I visited. I assume these minor constituents are preservatives and are consided harmeless to people (and Andy's cat). But what about mites and bees? Maybe these are the active ingredients in the mite suppression?? Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:04:48 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: resisting varroa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" writes > Dave Black wrote, > > "I'd be inclined to select the mites not the bee." > > I agree that it would be easier, and there's also the possible strategy > of importing selected non pathogenic mites, but it's not obvious to me > that such mites (either selected in place, or imported) would solve the > varroa problem. I was thinking along the lines of your earlier post... >when unselected bee stock is brought (without varroa) into >the area, it too becomes only moderately infested and does not >require treatment. The key difference seems to be that 50 to 60 % >of these varroa in worker brood are infertile. Maybe we could breed in infertility to the new subspecies 'European Mite' Varroa jackobsoni europeaus. :-) -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:35:22 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave Black Subject: Re: Resisting Varroa In-Reply-To: <199701291704.NAA10197@bud.peinet.pe.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <199701291704.NAA10197@bud.peinet.pe.ca>, Stan Sandler writes >That was a very interesting list of adaptations in a. cerana. > ..but not comprehensive. >>but I would be tempted to change the mite not the bee. > >Given the list of adaptations you mentioned, I might agree. But if we could >develop bees with a grooming adaptation it might even have other benefits. It >would seem to me that this is not far outside the realm of possibility, as bees >*do* groom themselves, and on occasion they groom others (if they are sticky, for >example). Sure, but the sort of thing I was pointing to was this. The mite is a very specific beast and (for a mite) a very unusual shape. This is because it inserts itself between the abdominal plates and is then hard to get at. It's so specific that it probably would'nt fit into any other type of bees interstatial (is that the word?) spaces. And the ones moving on the bees that you see are quite fast. If we make a bee that will catch and chew them will it create selection pressure for smaller, flatter, faster mites that can't be caught... or ones that pop out of a brood cell and go straight into the next? Despite our helping the bee's speed of evolution the mite's is inherently faster. > Maybe we have to change the mite to make it taste >better :) . Thats an idea I like. > >I wonder if the reason that bombus has this ability and a. cerana doesn't >(despite its long association with the mite) is size related. I believe in fact that cerana can do this also. -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:52:53 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Resisting Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The obvious problem with relying on trying to breed a less sucessful varroa is that it will obviously be replaced in the fullness of time with a more agressive variety -- especially in circumstances where defenses against varroa are used to protect the bees. There is not even the probability of being able to have the former interbreed with the more sucessful variety to lower viability since a given varroa group may not breed outside its own family very often, and only then when populations get large (which is precisely what is not supposed to happen with the lower viability strains). Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Resisting Varroa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dave Black wrote: > Sure, but the sort of thing I was pointing to was this. The mite is a > very specific beast and (for a mite) a very unusual shape. This is > because it inserts itself between the abdominal plates and is then hard > to get at. It's so specific that it probably would'nt fit into any other > type of bees interstatial (is that the word?) spaces. And the ones > moving on the bees that you see are quite fast. If we make a bee that > will catch and chew them will it create selection pressure for smaller, > flatter, faster mites that can't be caught... I am not an expert in evolution, but I *don't* think evolution happens anywhere near that fast. Resistance to drugs can, but that is entirely different. Mites physically changing is a different story or am I wrong? Comments?... or ones that pop out of a > brood cell and go straight into the next? Despite our helping the bee's > speed of evolution the mite's is inherently faster. Why would the mites evolution be inherently faster?, even if we could live long enough to see it? Regards, Ian @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 5 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:38:43 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Henderson Subject: Re: Wintering Report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Missouri weather has been extremely variable; temps in the 50-60's, >down to freezing, warm again, then down to single digits. During the >last warm spell, about three weeks ago, a 'rap' on the side of the >hive brought a strong humm. After snow about two weeks ago, followed >by single digit temperatures, we had a day back up around 60 on the >22nd. > >Checking the bees this last warm day revealed dead bees in the reduced >entrance. There is a second entrance in the front of the top feeder, >so I initially wasn't too worried. Except I didn't see any bees >flying. Removing the entrance reducer revealed a solid mass of wet, >dead bees, that looked as if they had been getting ready for a >cleansing flight (lots of yellow specks attached to the bees). >Opening the hive showed plenty of stores left and every last bee dead. > >I would appreciate it if anybody can give me an idea of what might >have happened. Please feel free to reply to me at : johntrn@ldd.net >if you feel this is not appropiate for general discussion. > >Thanks. > >-- John Taylor -- >(Former) Wild Rose Creek Apiary >Southeast Missouri > >When in danger, or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout! I live in S. Illinois near Carbondale. One of my hives (I have 8) is exactly the same as what you described. I think this one may have been weak in numbers going into the winter, and just couldn't handle the cold. I'll continue checking the list to see if anyone else replies to your inquiry with ideas. Robert Henderson Operations Manager WSIU-TV/SIUC Broadcasting Service Carbondale, IL 62901 (618) 453-6191 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harry Sweet Subject: min oil Hi ya'll, I've seen FG mineral oil at the market. It's used for constipation. I work in the pet and livestock retail industry. True about motor oil on chicken legs and rabbit ears, however mineral oil is preferable. The chem companies want us to use sevin dust(malathion). ?.. What if one was to spray a mist of mineral oil over the frames of a hive periodically? Does min oil oxidize as does vege oil? Does honey contain any oils naturally? Harry Sweet chock full of ?s in CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:50:56 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Veldhuis Organization: University of Manitoba Subject: Re: Surviving Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Problem: evaluating varroa resistance by correlating mite populations to honeybee populations w/o using a chemical treatment (which would skew the population). One solution: At the U of Manitoba, varroa research programs have used a shaking test, where a specific sized sample of bees is soaked in Alchohol and shaken for 5 mins (on a mechanical agitator). This process dislodges the mites which fall to the bottom of the container, where they can be collected and counted. This will give you a mite/bee ratio for the hive (w/o any test to the hive directly). This test must be corrected for the variations of mite and bee populations (i.e. Bee populations naturally increase quickly at certain seasons, thus appearing to reduce the mite/bee ratio). Hope this helps, Phil. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:00:18 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: Resisting Varroa One point that has not been made is that the honeybee as host for varroa is an evolving relationship. If it we not for us humans re-introducing the honeybee, the habitat for the varroa would have been decimated and the mite would not persist. This of course at the expense of the honeybee and the beekeepers. At this point varroa is too efficient to its own good! I would expect that the population dynamics of varroa in various regions will fluctuate wildly from year to year due to the fact that varroa ends up killing the host hive, thus destoying its habitat. Not a highly evolve dynamic. ?Does anyone know what the mite population dynamics have been in Europe from year to year within regions? From an avolutionary point of view, varroa in conjunction with the honeybee would eventually evolve a relationship that would permit both to survive or not. In the surviving relationship the host would not be killed. As beekeepers we are getting into the mix. Time will tell if we can contribute effectively to the process from the honeybee's perspective. At this point we started and magnified the problem! Jim Moore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:09:22 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Re: Shallow Plastic Foundation Tim Kelsey wrote: >I have some old shallow supers that will need foundation this year, and >because of the discussion on Bee-L I'd like to use plastic. But with the >exception of Duragilt, plastic foundation for shallow supers seems to be >non-existent. Pierco only makes deep and medium. Mann Lake carried shallow >Permadent last year, but no longer list it in their catalog. Look inside of your Mann Lake catalog (Page 24 of the '96 catalog) and see if there is a distributer close to you. The one I use still has shallow permadent availble from last year. My experience with Duragilt has been negative. The bees ate the wax down to the plastic sheet and would not draw it out again. I have several frames that have about 1/ 3 of the comb gone. I plan to use permadent this year with hopefully better results. Good luck! Steve Creasy- (\ Maryville, Tennessee USA {|||8- Proverbs 24:13, 25:16 (/ screasy@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:27:22 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marie Thorp Subject: letters to bee-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being new with bee-l I've sent two letters,a letter came back from you saying my letters were sent to everyone thar has bee-l. I'm wondering why the letters didn't show up in my mail as well? It seems as though letters such as mine would be blanket mailed.Please clue me in about this. Thanks,John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:39:09 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marie Thorp Subject: "America's Disappearing Honeybee's" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I was trying to wear my mouse out today and ran across an old article that some may have read and others like me havn't,at least untill today. The add.for this article is;www.cbn.org---cbn news---6/26/96,"America's Disappearing Honeybee's". Enjoy! Take Care, John Thorp Homestead,Fl. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:51:17 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marie Thorp Subject: Atta Boy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note of thanks to the providers of bee-l.I along with most all the folks getting it I'm sure are thankfull for your efforts.Again,Thank You. Take Care, John Thorp Homestead,Fl. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Bernard Subject: ETO use in The U.S. In-Reply-To: <199701290509.AAA12406@list.nih.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This message may only be of interest to US beekeepers. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is about to close an ongoing review of the use of ethylene oxide they started in the 1970's. The issue is the cost (in terms of environmental and employee health concerns) of using ETO versus the benefit (fumigated spices, beehives, medical products, cosmetics, etc.). Of the many users of ETO, beekeeping usage is THE smallest and is also the ONLY group that is being asked to stop using ETO. To the best of my knowledge there are only three states that are currently using ETO for fumigation of bee equipment. Two of these states have special/local needs licenses and are being asked to voluntarily withdraw their permits or be forced to do so by the EPA. The Maryland bee inspector uses ETO under a general license by interpreting bee equipment as inanimate objects, which is permissible under the general use permit. The EPA has asked ETO suppliers, who have already complied, to change the label and specifically prohibit the use of ETO as a fumigant for bee equipment. This action makes bee equipment fumigation illegal under the general use permit but permissible, for the time being, under the special needs permit. However, the ability to get a special needs permit is in question. The bottom line is that the small beekeeping industry has borne the brunt of the 20 year review of ETO usage. In the opinion of the EPA, the value of the fumigation of bee equipment is outweighed by the health risks to the bee inspector who performs the fumigation. From what I have been told, the health risks were calculated by assuming exposure to ETO for 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, and 50 weeks a year - far more exposure than any bee inspector has ever had in Maryland. The bottom line is that the EPA will probably dissallow all fumigation of bee equipment by ETO. The alternatives are to burn hives, steam autoclave the boxes, scorch with fire, gamma irradiate, or dip in boiling lye. In my opinion, isn't the EPA supposed to go after the largest users and hazards first? Shouldn't the largest user of ETO, the medical industry, be the ones to lose their permits? It is the medical industry that could afford to switch to gamma irradiation more easily than the beekeeping industry. Does picking on the bee industry seem like a political and not regulatory act? Am I so naive to think that the EPA would go after the big (ab)users first before the littel guy? Comments appreciated. David Bernard EAS Master Beekeeper President, Maryland State Beekeepers EAS Director for Maryland Damascus, MD USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:44:44 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Wout <102336.711@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Shallow Plastic Foundation Joel W. Govostes wrote: >I've never seen the plastic molded stuff for shallows, now that you mention it. I second that observation. I bought some used shallow frames from a retired beekeeper and could not find plastic foundation for them. This year I'm attempting to produce comb honey. Since I use medium supers for extraction, using the shallows for comb production means that I don't have to struggle with identifying where the comb supers are. >Others were converted to mediums by nailing a rim to the bottom, making >them 6 5/8" deep. >It's nice to have all the supers uniform, and it can really expedite things >like returning newly-extracted frames or sorting combs. This is a great idea. Exactly why I subscribe to Bee-Line. Keep those good ideas coming. If my comb production flops, I'll do this to my shallow supers. Ted Wout, 3rd year beekeeper, 8 hives, adding 4 this spring Red Oak, TX ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:59:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harry Sweet Subject: Re: Uganda move In a message dated 97-01-29 08:51:19 EST, you write: << Allen Dick for Bryan Butler writes.... >I am wondering if there are by-products that can be made from very dark >honey. Uganda has a great deal of dark honey and my understanding is >that this is not too marketable. Maybe that is an incorrect assumption. >I wondered if we could break it down into basic sugars or something >which could then be more marketable. Tropical Forest Products (David Wainwright, UK) was set up to import honey from Zambia and Tanzania to the UK. These too were considered 'industrial' and not marketable because they were so strong and dark. -- Dave Black , Guildford, GU1 4RN. UK. >> Any idea what floral sources are? coffee, rainforest, etc? Harry Sweet Some foggy place in CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:31:14 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: How much Silver? How do I load? What if? SPECULATION! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There have been many questions about FGMO and unfortunately, the messenger has left the list. CAVEAT EMPTOR! > Q: What if one was to spray a mist of mineral oil over the > frames of a hive periodically? > A: You'd run the risk of applying too much FGMO, with the end result that the FGMO would have the same desired effect (DEATH) on your bees as it does on the mites. In other words, DON'T DO IT! > > Does min oil oxidize as does vege oil? and > Does honey contain any oils naturally? A: Don't know! > >Q: Why waxed paper, why not paper towels? > Speculation: Because you want the FGMO free to be absorbed by the porous spiracles in the mites' bodies, not the porous paper towels. > > Why FOOD GRADE mineral oil? > A: FGMO is a food product and as such the proposer of the FGMO idea speculates there should be no concern of introducing a hazardous substance into the hive. Finally I have to add my own two cents worth here. The FGMO proposal is one man's idea, which may or may not work. No judgment call here, just a statement to be treated as any other statement not backed up by empirical data - and please, I'm not saying Dr. Rodriguez has no empirical data to back up his claims, I'm saying I have no data to back up his claims. Whether a beekeeper is going to embrace Dr. R's ideas or not is a judgment call to be made individually by each and every beekeeper. The common sense behind the choice to follow the suggestion is that a gamble is being taken that the claims are true, judged by Mother Nature, not the scientific community, not the government, not the collective wisdom of BEE-L. If one gambles and the claim turns out not to be effective or if FGMO proves to be harmful to bees, gamblers lose! Before embracing one man's proposal ask yourself, "Am I willing to gamble and if so, HOW MUCH am I willing to gamble?" And remember, this claim has not be substantiated or duplicated by powers that be with the "authority" to approve the proposal. This may be attributed to the fact that there's no money in it for the chemical companies or it may be due to the manner in which the message was delivered or it may be the case that the proposal is being investigated by someone with the blessing of the scientific community or the government or Odin (fill in the god of you own choice). But for the time being, THE JURY IS STILL OUT! It's like OJ! Please folks, don't start throwing FGMO or used motor oil or 2-in-1 oil or castor oil or Olive Oyl into your hives based on what you've read on this list unless you are willing and can afford to sacrifice those hives to satisfy your own curiosity! At least make the effort to find out what is being recommended and how it's being recommended before blindly jumping on another bandwagon that may or may not be heading where you want to be! SOAPBOX OFF! Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:09:39 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Oil Foggers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Q: What if one was to spray a mist of mineral oil over the > > frames of a hive periodically? > > > A: You'd run the risk of applying too much FGMO, with the end result > that the FGMO would have the same desired effect (DEATH) on your > bees as it does on the mites. In other words, DON'T DO IT! This reminds me -- has anyone had any experience witht he *oil foggers* that were rumoured to have been used in the early days of the TM invasion of California? I heard about them on the grapevine, then nothing more... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:15:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jinnah Edun Subject: Re: birds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" sorry to say, but the little one died earlier today! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:09:14 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Coloring books etc... Kelley, You may know of these already, but I use the "Study Prints" by Dadants in my talks. They are about twelve 18 x 22 inch photos of the queen, drones, brood, etc., and have lots of info on the backs. They are a bit pricey, but are worth it. The biggest hit every time, however, is to take along an observation hive, (with _marked_ queen!) for show and tell. I have done from pre-k to 7th graders, and it is fun! There is no end to the questions generated! Gerry Visel Visel7@juno.com >> From: Kelley Rosenlund >> To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU >> Subject: Coloring books etc... >> Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 5:14 AM >> >> Hello all, >> >> It looks like I will be doing more than the occasional >presentation to children on bees and I am looking for word searches, >coloring pages, etc to hand out to children up to 10 years old. Will >be >doing a presentation on bees at my girlfriend's son's middle school to >about 400 children so I need things that are not copywrited so I can >copy >as needed. >> >> If y'all have know of any web pages I can download stuff or have >anything >at home I can copy pleases let me know or mail to: >> >> Kelley Rosenlund >> 1219 N.W. 43 Ave >> Gainesville, Florida USA >> 32609 >> God Bless, >> Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu >> Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 >> 200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:24:12 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Apis cerana - fanning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kuehn john c wrote: > > In central Illinois, Apis Mellifera fans both ways at the hive entrance. > An old inspector taught me that there is a place on the hive that is drawing air into, and another place exhausting air. You can puff smoke near the inlet and let the bees draw it in. In a few minutes, the bees will reverse the flow and the smoke will be blowing back at you. Now you switch to the other spot and it will now be the inlet and you can pump a little more smoke in there. After a couple of cycles like this even very aggressive colonies can be worked. The old inspector said " you can put em all on the bottom board". This really works on nasty colonies or on days you should'nt be working bees but have to. When the flow reverses, the bees at both ends (and I assume in the middle as well) change the direction they fan although not at exactly the same time. So I'm sure they fan both ways here, but I'm not sure if they can do this while facing the same direction. I'll have to look at that this coming season. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:24:43 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: colonies surviving varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299 wrote: Re: Surviving Varroa > Survival with varroa and without treatment is not necessarily an > indication of resistant bees. In some situations, survival of a > colony can result from the type of varroa, rather than some > characteristic of the bees. > > de Guzman's work in detecting 2 different types of varroa in North > America might be a step along the way toward benefiting from this > type of observation. I think this was reported at ABRC, but I > wasn't there. Can anyone who attended, add a comment? > I heard her speak at AHPA. She found two types of varroa in North America, one variety was a more virulent strain. The distribution of the mites was confusing. It looked as though they were introduced to Noth America at several points. Maybe more samples should be analyized. Also check out "Relationship Between Food Availability and the Reproductive Ability of the Mite Varroa jacobsoni in Africaized Bee Colonies" by Moretto, Lionel....., in Jan ABJ. I wonder how much these two factors have screwed up measurements of varroa characteristics? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:30:06 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Surviving Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daryl L. Wright wrote: > > For any claim in tolerance, I would like to see evidence that there are no mites > in the hive. Hi Daryl, Consider Apis cerana. They have varroa living in their hive and yet survive. The mite has not been wiped out there. I think this is the best we can ever hope for with Apis m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:32:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: ETO use in The U.S. DB>Of the many users of ETO, beekeeping usage is THE smallest and is also the >ONLY group that is being asked to stop using ETO. To the best of my >knowledge there are only three states that are currently using ETO for >fumigation of bee equipment. Two of these states have special/local needs >licenses and are being asked to voluntarily withdraw their permits or be >forced to do so by the EPA. The Maryland bee inspector uses ETO under a >general license by interpreting bee equipment as inanimate objects, which >is permissible under the general use permit. Hello David, Its called "overkill" a common problem in the government regulatory business. You know its wrong, I know its wrong and anyone with common sense knows it wrong. You can work to make change to protect the so called minor interests of beekeepers and I can just about guarantee that all you may get if you are lucky and work very hard and make some big political contributions is some of the major uses added to the list, and still have the beekeepers use finished for ETO. DB>The EPA has asked ETO suppliers, who have already complied, to change the >label and specifically prohibit the use of ETO as a fumigant for bee >equipment. This action makes bee equipment fumigation illegal under the >general use permit but permissible, for the time being, under the special >needs permit. However, the ability to get a special needs permit is in >question. I would not rule out that "special needs permit", at least it sounds if the door is still open. DB>The bottom line is that the small beekeeping industry has borne the brunt >of the 20 year review of ETO usage. In the opinion of the EPA, the value >of the fumigation of bee equipment is outweighed by the health risks to the >bee inspector who performs the fumigation. From what I have been told, the >health risks were calculated by assuming exposure to ETO for 8 hours a day, >40 hours a week, and 50 weeks a year - far more exposure than any bee >inspector has ever had in Maryland. This part for beekeepers health concerns IMHO is over stated but it is well documented for the Florida Citrus Industry that has been studied to the death of office workers who did not handle the material but after 40 years exposure developed various types of cancers. I believe that at one time ETO was in common use in the citrus packing industry to sweat out the color in oranges. Since the office workers did not work near or handle the chemical it is easy to understand the concerns. At least for me that was enough that I did not want anything to do with ETO and after using my small supply never considered using any more. I read all the maternal, no small job, on ETO many years ago when the California Department of Agriculture purchased a portable ETO chamber a'la Florida and were going to do field fumigations for beekeepers. They never did other then a few tests and the California State Beekeepers Association was out the cost of the chamber an investment that would not have been made if they had listened to me instead of the CDFA Chief State Bee Inspector who sold them a pig in the poke. DB>The bottom line is that the EPA will probably dissallow all fumigation of >bee equipment by ETO. The alternatives are to burn hives, steam autoclave >the boxes, scorch with fire, gamma irradiate, or dip in boiling lye. What kills us here is that if only 3 states use this material then that means that the rest of the states are either rotten with disease or they have found alternatives and do not feel they need ETO. I suspect the latter is the fact. DB>In my opinion, isn't the EPA supposed to go after the largest users and >hazards first? Shouldn't the largest user of ETO, the medical industry, >be the ones to lose their permits? It is the medical industry that could >afford to switch to gamma irradiation more easily than the beekeeping >industry. Does picking on the bee industry seem like a political and not >regulatory act? Am I so naive to think that the EPA would go after the big >(ab)users first before the littel guy? You are right about the political act, but this is the truth in all government regulations which by design are political with a odorous mix of science just enough to justify the rule. I personally don't like it as I believe that many of the materials banned from beekeeper use could be used and had been used without problems, and have found many of the alternatives no safer then what they replaced.., But it has not been going my way for several generations and I don't see much hope for change except to back all efforts to reduce the cost of government at all levels and pray for grid lock, but then that could eliminate government bee inspection all together and place that burden on the beekeepers for the health of their bees ware I suspect it has belonged all along anyway. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. DB>David Bernard >EAS Master Beekeeper >President, Maryland State Beekeepers >EAS Director for Maryland >Damascus, MD >USA --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Vereniging tot Bevordering van de Bijenteelt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:10:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: E.mail address for Evan Sugden Does anyone have the e.mail address for Evan Sugden. A compatriot of mine wants to contact him re a paper he wrote back in 1992. In anticipation - thanks. Trevor Weatherhead ASUTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:24:55 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Seppo Korpela Subject: Re: E.mail address for Evan Sugden MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Does anyone have the e.mail address for Evan Sugden. A compatriot of mine > wants to contact him re a paper he wrote back in 1992. > > In anticipation - thanks. > > Trevor Weatherhead > ASUTRALIA > For searching addressess of bee people around the world see http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/ibra/directry.html There I located the entry: Sugden, Evan, whatsasugden@delphi.com ============================================================================= * Seppo Korpela Agricultural Research Center of Finland * Phone INT + 358 3 4188 576 Institute of Plant Protection * FAX INT + 358 3 4188 584 FIN-31600 Jokioinen * E-mail seppo.korpela@mtt.fi Finland * http://www.agronet.fi/mtt/ksl/kotisi/skorpela.htm ============================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:27:13 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Wout <102336.711@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: ETO use in The U.S. David Bernard wrote: >In my opinion, isn't the EPA supposed to go after the largest users and >hazards first? Shouldn't the largest user of ETO, the medical industry, >be the ones to lose their permits? It is the medical industry that could >afford to switch to gamma irradiation more easily than the beekeeping >industry. Does picking on the bee industry seem like a political and not >regulatory act? Am I so naive to think that the EPA would go after the big >(ab)users first before the little guy? Carol Browner and the EPA are a government agency that must constantly fight for their existence by pointing out all of these areas where they need to protect us from ourselves. If they didn't, they would not receive additional funding from the Congress. BTW, Carol Browner is one of the few Clinton appointments that was made in the early days of the Clinton Administration. These appointments had the undue influence of Hillary Clinton who is a marxist. Carol Browner therefore is most probably a marxist or has very marxist tendencies. She believes that the government's job is to protect you because you can't protect yourself. Beekeepers tend to lean towards the other end of the scale. We like to help ourselves and find new ways to do so. Why aren't they pushing this on the Medical industry? Keep in mind they tried to take this industry over and failed. I don't think that the administration is ready to take on the medical industry any time soon, they're too big and too powerful. Beekeeping, in comparison, is peanuts compared to the medical industry and offers little resistance. This gives Ms. Browner and the EPA the precedent for the day they are ready to go after the medical industry. Sorry for the politicization of the issue but it's a political situation. A situation that you probably can't win unless you can get Mike Wallace and Morley Safer to knock on the EPAs door. Write your local congressmen and senators as well. The more pressure you can put on them the better. Once you start putting pressure on them, beware. This administration will use the IRS and whatever other instruments to make your life hard. Read this past Monday's copy of the Wall Street Journal to see what they have done with the IRS against their political enemies. Ted Wout, 3rd year beekeeper, 8 hives, adding 4 this spring Red Oak, TX ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:37:40 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: ETO use in The U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC0E88.DAA94A00" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC0E88.DAA94A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...The EPA has asked ETO suppliers, who have already complied, to > change the label and specifically prohibit the use of ETO as a fumigant for > bee equipment. > ...In the opinion of the EPA, the value of the fumigation of bee equipment is > outweighed by the health risks to the bee inspector... There are other factors involved here, from the question of reaction products left in the beehive after exposing wax, wood, metal, honey, pollen, and any remaining brood and scale to ETO. There is also the question of the transport and handling of the product, and the byproducts of manufacture. It is not a simple question. We considered it here in Alberta back in the seventies and built a $250,000 chamber which was used for a year or two and put into 'mothballs' (pun intended -- hehehe). It was brought out for one last hurrah when a large provincial museum had an outbreak of moths in some priceless exhibits, and the chamber saved the day, since the outbreak threatened the whole building. Anyhow, no one knows where it is now, although at the time it was built, there was acrimonious debate, and a provincial apiarist lost his position for opposing construction (for the reasons cited above) in the face of several politically powerful beekeepers. As one who has had a truckload equipment fumigated many years ago, I can testify to the limited usefulness of the procedure; only dry comb can be processed sucessfully, since the gas does not penetrate very well. In our case, the equipment still required tetracycline treatment to clear it up, and in IMHO, we would have been *just as successful* to have just used TM properly in the first place and stayed away from the fumigatation (We did the fumigation before the Alberta chamber was built, and had driven 900 miles to Manitoba to have the job done). The practice of fumigation has fallen from favour here in Canada for the most part. I do not know of any chambers still functioning. I guess I have to say -- for one more time -- that the drugs we have available (tetracycline) can clear up any AFB we currently experience quickly and efficiently -- when used correctly. I have seen horribly infected equipment cleaned up. And it stayed cleaned up afterwards. Together with bees that are not highly susceptible to AFB, TM works fine, and will likely continue to do so for some long time. When/if it fails due to resistance, we have other drugs waiting that are even more effective. IMO, ETO use is not justified due to the risks, the toxicity, the extra handling, and ineffectiveness. FWIW ------=_NextPart_000_01BC0E88.DAA94A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>   ...The EPA has = asked ETO suppliers, who have already complied, to
>   change the label and specifically = prohibit the use of ETO as a fumigant for
>   bee = equipment.
<snip>
> =   ...In the opinion of the EPA, = the value of the fumigation of bee = equipment is
>   outweighed by the health risks to the bee = inspector...

There are other factors = involved here, from the question of reaction products left in the = beehive after exposing wax, wood, metal, honey, pollen, and any = remaining brood and scale to ETO. There is also the question of = the transport and handling of the product, and the byproducts of = manufacture.

It is not a simple question. We considered it = here in Alberta back in the seventies and built a $250,000 chamber which = was used for a year or two and put into 'mothballs' (pun intended -- = hehehe). It was brought out for one last hurrah when a large = provincial museum had an outbreak of moths in some priceless exhibits, = and the chamber saved the day, since the outbreak threatened the whole = building.

Anyhow, no one knows where it is now, although at the = time it was built, there was acrimonious debate, and a provincial = apiarist lost his position for opposing construction (for the = reasons cited above) in the face of several politically powerful = beekeepers.

As one who has had a truckload equipment fumigated = many years ago, I can testify to the limited usefulness of the = procedure; only dry comb can be processed sucessfully, since the = gas does not penetrate very well. In our case, the equipment still = required tetracycline treatment to clear it up, and in IMHO, we would = have been *just as successful* to have just used TM properly in the = first place and stayed away from the fumigatation (We did the fumigation = before the Alberta chamber was built, and had driven 900 miles to = Manitoba to have the job done).

The practice of fumigation has = fallen from favour here in Canada for the most part. I do not know = of any chambers still functioning.

I guess I have to say -- for = one more time -- that the drugs we have available (tetracycline) can = clear up any AFB we currently experience quickly and efficiently -- when = used correctly. I have seen horribly infected equipment cleaned = up. And it stayed cleaned up afterwards.

Together with bees = that are not highly susceptible to AFB, TM works fine, and will likely = continue to do so for some long time. When/if it fails due to = resistance, we have other drugs waiting that are even more = effective.

IMO, ETO use is not justified due to the risks, the = toxicity, the extra handling, and = ineffectiveness.

FWIW

------=_NextPart_000_01BC0E88.DAA94A00-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: ETO use in The U.S. In-Reply-To: from "David Bernard" at Jan 29, 97 02:21:38 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If EPA is about to close out ETO, there must be a document available to the public and a comment period. If so, please post this information. Thanks Jerry Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:38:23 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Katedra hydinarstva a malych hosp.zvierat AF" Subject: pesticides and bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee-liners! Here in Slovakia we prepare new legislation act about pesticides with regards to bees and other beneficial insects. Could someone help me to learn, how is this problem solved in other countries? I am interested mainly about Europe legislation. How are the new pesticides tested on bees ? What about international regulations? Thanks in advance for any informations. Please use this address: chlebo@afnet.uniag.sk Slovakian Beekeeping Page: http://afnet.uniag.sk/~chlebo/beekeep.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Jake G. Tsvilikhovskiy" Subject: Bee propolis for kids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Bee" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi ppl: I have a simle question : Is it safe to give bee propolis ( capsuls ) to a 4-year old kid? I have heard that bee propolis can greatly help to build up immune system. I am just uncertain if this is safe for 4-years old kid. Any help is greatly appreciated. 10x Jake ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:39:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James Morton <106074.517@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Uganda move - dark honey << Allen Dick for Bryan Butler writes.... >>I am wondering if there are by-products that can be made from very dark >honey. Uganda has a great deal of dark honey and my understanding is >that this is not too marketable. Maybe that is an incorrect assumption. >I wondered if we could break it down into basic sugars or something >which could then be more marketable.< I believe that 'honey beer', made by the rapid fermentation of honey with other ingredients is very popular in parts of Africa. Perhaps the dark honey would make it similar to Guinness! James Morton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:40:38 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Brewing Mead & Beer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I believe that 'honey beer', made by the rapid fermentation of honey > with other ingredients is very popular in parts of Africa. Perhaps > the dark honey would make it similar to Guinness! I should mention to the potential brewers out there that are intimidated by unusual honies that I have sucessfully used strong dark (almost black) buckwheat mead that is enjoyed by some who do not like buckwheat honey itself. The flowers are present to an extent that they are not in the honey, and there is a certain quality that ressembles stout to some. While melter honey and other refuse is not good for brewing, some specialty honies work very well. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:13:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: mechanisms of tracheal mite tolerance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The interesting discussion about varroa mite resistance / tolerance has me curious about tracheal mites now. In the types of bees that have shown greater tolerance what mechanisms contribute to this? Thankyou in advance for your comments, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:22:35 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: Re: Brewing Mead & Beer Comments: To: allend@internode.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >While melter honey and other refuse is not good for brewing, some >specialty honies work very well. to be sure, allen. i use the "drippings" from my cut comb honey operation. i put then thru a sieve to remove the wax, then boil the honey in water b4 adding it to my beer brew. the boiling moderates the honey flavours, but the honey itself makes a lager which is clean, crisp.... & 2nd to none! cheers, mark Auckland, New Zealand Ph/fax: 64-9-846-5644 Mobile: 64-21-656-447 Email: m12345@ihug.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:37:14 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Albert W Needham Subject: New Beta Search Programs I recently came across some new Beta programs put out to search the web. These are: E-Mail Ferret/Web Ferret/News Ferret & File Ferret. What they will search for is obvious in the name of each program. They will search World-Wide or do a more limited search-up to you. Nice features in terms of what you plug in to search for. These programs are free and can be found at Http://www.vironix.com They really work quite well. For example I used Web Ferret to search World-Wide for Web sites using the keywords "Honey Bees". Guess what, it came up with--- >500< sites! You can save the results as a file or print it out, whatever you want. This is just for the information for anyone that is interested. I didn't try "Varroa" or "Tracheal Mites". I probably will just to see what they come up with. The only ones I have tried to date is File Ferret and Web Ferret. Al .................................................................................. ..................... Al Needham--Scituate,MA,USA--awneedham@juno.com "The HoneyBee"--An Educational Program About Honey Bees With A Superb Slide Show-Version 2.0 (c) 1997 Download From: http://www.kuai.se/~beeman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:08:25 -0600 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: www.Birkey.Com Subject: Re: Bee propolis for kids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jake G. Tsvilikhovskiy wrote: > Is it safe to give bee propolis ( capsuls ) to a 4-year old kid? > > I have heard that bee propolis can greatly help to build up immune > system. I am just uncertain if this is safe for 4-years old kid. Jake - I'm not sure anybody can say definitely yes or no to the effects it would have on your child. I would be very careful about assuming propolis will "greatly" help in the build up of the immune system. It's a childs life you are dealing with and going by info that you heard through the grape vine sounds risky to me. I personally feel that alot (not all) of the so called benefits from products of the hive like propolis, pollen and royal jelly tend to be overblown by the "health food" industry. Mike Wallace at Sar Shalom Apiaries might be able to better answer the issue with propolis. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:04:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Re: Coloring books etc... Comments: To: rosenlk@afn.org Kelley, I understand the reluctance... When I first marked the observation hive queen, I used some of my daughter's purple fingernail polish. Big mistake. They didn't like the smell of it, and balled her right away. If you do do it, use either "White-out" or "Testors" model paint. (Actually, I think it was the color... :-) ) Gerry On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:16:22 -0500 Kelley Rosenlund writes: >At 11:09 PM 1/29/97 EST, you wrote: >>Kelley, >> >> You may know of these already, but I use the "Study Prints" by >Dadants >>in my talks. They are about twelve 18 x 22 inch photos of the queen, >>drones, brood, etc., and have lots of info on the backs. They are a >bit >>pricey, but are worth it. The biggest hit every time, however, is to >>take along an observation hive, (with _marked_ queen!) for show and >tell. >> I have done from pre-k to 7th graders, and it is fun! There is no >end >>to the questions generated! > >Hey Gerry, >I have put the study prints on my birthday (Feb 18)wish list. You are >right, the obs hive is a great hit. I still have not gotten the >courage to mark the queen. I am always afraid I will hurt her!! > >God Bless, >Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu >Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Phone:352-378-7510 Fax:352-372-0078 >200 hives, almost 2 years in beekeeping. 8 frame deeps,shallows. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:11:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "William Nelson@Aol.Com" Subject: Re: Uganda move - dark honey Dark Honey is used quite a bit in baking as long as the flavor is that, that is traditionally associated with honey. It can also be used for flavored toppings such as those used to make "Beer Nuts" in the U.S. . Ingenuity will always find an approrpiate market. Apiarist North Liberty, IN. U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:15:37 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Pearce Organization: Dept of Biochemistry Subject: Re: Bee propolis for kids Comments: To: Tsvilikhovskiy_Jake/ny_mis@npd.com Hi Jake, from what I have heard, propolis is a strange substance, the composition of wich is which is totally dependent on what the bees have on hand at that particular time, in most cases this is the sticky resins from trees, shrubs etc, but also this can be tar from roads, bitumen roofing felt, glues etc. I would tend to steer clear of it for these reasons, BUT, I have been tempted in the past to taste some of the new golden propolis on some new clean frames, and it had the most amazing aromatic taste, I find the best effects can be derived from putting a speck into a large tumbler of finest pure Scotch malt whisky. After consuming this, you may feel a lot better. The only problem is determining the contribution of the propolis rather than the whisky to the effect. I am carrying out a personal long term test of these substances ! take care Steve SCOTLAND ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Joel W. Govostes" Subject: Re: Uganda move - dark honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have two jars of honey here from Kenya. I received them as a gift last year. This is dark honey, for sure. The jars are squat and wide so the light doesn't get through, anyway. I would call it "dark amber." It is not black-dark like buckwheat, and there is no reddish or green tinge to it. Just dark amber. I inquired as to the sources, and was told that acacia is a prominent nectar source. (I believe that tree is a legume, which flowers heavily). So this probably is some blend of acacia and wildflower nectar. It appears to have a noticeable amount of pollen in it (somewhat grainy on top), and the flavor is unique, quite strong, like a darker clover honey but with a very slight malty flavor. It does not have any sour tinge to it, like our fall honey does. Well, that's the best way I can describe it. It has soft-granulated since the summer. Label says, "Wild Honey" "Pure Pollen Rich Rangeland Honey!" "BARINGO'S PRIDE HONEY strained and packed by PRIDE (Promotion of Rural Initiatives and Developmental Enterprises) P.O. Box 34980 Nairobi, KENYA" I don't know if this honey was produced in transitional or modern hives. It was probably mashed and strained from the comb, and not extracted with centrifugal equipment. I was thinking of writing to them to find out more about the local beekeeping methods. The label features a pleasant and colorful drawing, showing a honey-badger ripping open a a bee-tree amidst tall grass. The bees are coming forth from the tree, and a honey-guide (bird, Indicator sp.) is flitting above, excitedly looking down at the badger and the exposed hive. I suppose that the Uganda honey might be similar to this stuff. Honey lovers might actually find it very enjoyable, but in USA it wouldn't be considered "table honey." But then, what do we know. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:27:04 +1100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bond Subject: Re: Brewing Mead Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark, I too use cappings honey (as well as last seasons candied - strong [clover/thistle] honey. I follow the recommendations of the Award Winners of the Agricultural Shows in our Association who boil their must for at least 1/2 Hour skimming off the froth (usually about 4:1 ratio water:honey [for 5 to 10 gallons I use 2:1 water:honey ratio & add the other 2 parts of water later), when at room temperature add juice of 1/2 small lemon per gallon or the juice of one good size lemon for 5 gallons. The yeast is added from 1/2 pint of starter (in 1 pint bottle) prepared a few days ahead of "boiling the must". Apple juice (no preservative) or 4:1 honey:water (boiled to kill any other yeasts etc). When the fermentation dies down, siphon the clear brew into another brew container (leaving the 'mud' [lees] behind), fit a lid with a fermentation lock, leave for at least six weeks before bottling. Sorry I rambled-on (kissed-the-Blarney!) Kind Regards Peter Bond PS Does anyone have Vermouth or other herb recipes? At 12:22 PM 31/01/97 +1300, you wrote: >>While melter honey and other refuse is not good for brewing, some >>specialty honies work very well. > >to be sure, allen. i use the "drippings" from my cut comb honey operation..... 2nd to none! > Peter Bond President Amateur Beekeepers' Association of NSW Inc. Ph. (612)9638-3848 (H), (612)9887-8475 (W), Fax- (612)9887-3107 (W) Snail Mail: 59 Marguerette Street, ERMINGTON NSW 2115 AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:47:54 -0500 Reply-To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Excerpts from BEE-L Organization: BestOfBee@systronix.net Subject: Repost: Announcing BestOfBee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Last Revised: January 31, 1997 *** Please save this message for future reference *** We are pleased to announce Best Of Bee, a new way to read BEE-L. (BEE-L is the internet mailing list for discussion of bees, wasps, etc.). As the volume has grown on BEE-L, a number of members have grown tired of receiving large numbers of messages daily, many of which are sent in error or not of general interest. Many worthy subscribers have simply given up and left. Therefore, to lighten the load, several list regulars (who merrily read *everything* anyhow), have agreed to select the best material (in their opinions) and re-post it to a new list, called Best of Bee (The '-l' is left off due to changing standards on the net regarding punctuation in list names). Since it is pretty well unanimous that BEE-L should not be split or censored, this provides a way for those who wish to read the list, but be selective and not be exposed to flames,and trivial or misdirected posts to enjoy a filtered version of BEE-L. Currently about 75% of the posts to BEE-L (or less) are being re-transmitted on BestOfBee. This varies from 0% to 100% on a given day. If you would like to try this new free service, simply send email to Honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee You will shortly start receiving messages. IMPORTANT Additional Information For Current BEE-L Subscribers: --------------------------------------------------------------- If you get BEE-L currently, these messages from BestOfBee will be *duplicates* of *some* the ones you get from BEE-L presently, but some may be edited to remove excessive quotes from previous messages and bad formatting or gratutous material if they are otherwise suitable. Many messages from BEE-L will not merit repeating on bestofbee, since they are chatter, or redundant. After you are satisfied that the new list is working and get a feel for the degree of filtering, you may wish to send a message to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SET BEE-L NOMAIL and thereafter read only the filtered messages -- if you like the way it works. You can get a full BEE-L log for comparison any time you like by sending email to the same LISTSEV, saying get BEE-L log9701b, (for example) where '97' is the year, '01' is the month, and 'b' is the (second) week of the month, or you may read them from Adam's Sunsite archives, the address of which is on my home page. IMPORTANT: You will still need your BEE-L subscription if you wish to post (or retreive BEE-L logs), since the only way to get a post to Best of Bee is through posting a message on BEE-L. We expect that soon you will be able to search these selected Best of Bee messages using a web brouser after a number have accumulated. This will give a searchable 'opinion base'. We may add some edited material from old BEE-L logs too. PLEASE NOTE: *No one* will be able to post to BestOfBee (regardless of what the welcome message says -- I haven't had time to fix it) except the three moderators, so direct all replies to Best of Bee articles to BEE-L where they will be read and perhaps selected for re-transmission. We hope this service helps more people to enjoy BEE-L, and that those who wish to post will do so freely now without fear of offending those who desire decorum and lower traffic levels. We are also open to constructive comments and ideas for improvement. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:55:06 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pure Jane Subject: Chinese beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sir, Re. the beeswax business for the first order we are urgently to know your telephone number in USA,so that we will be able to effect the mailing to you for the first sample 10 pounds. Thanks and regards Chen gongjie N.B.:My E-mail:Hyacpure@public.wh.hb.cn Fax:86 27 7391406 Tel:86 27 7393195 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Catalog 1997 from Wicwas Press Dear List Members: Wicwas Press has a new price list, which has been mailed to current customers only. The list contains about 300 book titles, plus educational video programs and slide sets. If you would like a copy sent to you by surface mail, I will send it to you free. (It is not available via internet as an attached file). Quantities of the list may be requested for use in bee schools, classes on bees, bee associations, honey sales booths, etc. Just let me know how many you can use. Make your requests to "Catalog request" LJConnor@aol.com Wicwas Press LLC P.O. Box 817 Cheshire CT 06410 USA phone and fax 203 250 7575 Thanks! Larry Connor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Beeworks Subject: Re: mechanisms of tracheal mite tolerance Comments: To: Stan Sandler In-Reply-To: <199701302213.SAA14874@bud.peinet.pe.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 30 Jan 97 at 18:13, Stan Sandler wrote: mechanisms of tracheal mite tolerance > The interesting discussion about varroa mite resistance / tolerance has me > curious about tracheal mites now. In the types of bees that have shown > greater tolerance what mechanisms contribute to this? We have been working with Dr.Nasr and the Ontario Breeding program for a number of years now. They can tell us wether our strain of bees are resistant or tolerant to T-mites, but not a word about the mechanisms. It has been known, for a long time, that the mature mite moves out and looks for a new host under 4 days old. Beyond that, nothing. It is thought that the mites don't like the taste of the new host and move back out, as there is record of bite marks in some tracheae but no mites. ********************************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. L3V 6H1 David Eyre, Owner. Phone/Fax 705 326 7171 Dealers for E.H.Thorne & B.J.Sherriff UK http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:07:07 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Resisting Varroa Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <17550227003547@internode.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Allen Dick wrote: > The obvious problem with relying on trying to breed a less sucessful > varroa is that it will obviously be replaced in the fullness of time > with a more agressive variety -- especially in circumstances where > defenses against varroa are used to protect the bees. > > There is not even the probability of being able to have the former > interbreed with the more sucessful variety to lower viability since a > given varroa group may not breed outside its own family very often, > and only then when populations get large (which is precisely what is not > supposed to happen with the lower viability strains). > Hi Allen and All, When breeding Varroa, anything you do , you have a chance to come up with a super mite. That has a negative point to it which I would not like to face.We could have a Researcher expound on the possibilities. We are complex enough , with this mite problem. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:36:39 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Wout <102336.711@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Brother Adam Video Does anyone out there know where one could find a copy of the PBS special about Brother Adam. I've heard about it but never seen it. It sure would be nice to purchase a copy if it's available for purchase. Also, I've heard they did a special about migratory beekeepers. I wouldn't mind finding a copy of that as well. Ted Wout, 3rd year beekeeper, 8 hives, adding 4 this spring Red Oak, TX ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:57:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Brother Adam Video In-Reply-To: <970131193638_102336.711_HHQ80-1@CompuServe.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Ted Wout wrote: > Does anyone out there know where one could find a copy of the PBS > special about Brother Adam. I've heard about it but never seen it. It > sure would be nice to purchase a copy if it's available for purchase. I would also be very interested in this information. I saw a special on our public tv station here in Ontario and I think it is the same one that Ted mentioned. So if anyone knows, please respond to the list, as I am sure other would like to know too...:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 5 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:06:38 +0100 Reply-To: beeman@kuai.se Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Bee Program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of months ago I started what I thought would be a simple translation of Al's program The HoneyBee. I wanted it in Swedish too and sat down to change the text. As I proceeded with the work I realized I would have to rework some of the pictures to make them fit into my story. Now when I have been fiddling with the pictures too, I'm afraid there is not that much left of Al's program. It's rather big, 3,8 MEG, because of the graphics and can be transfered to 3 floppys for easier distribution. When I know there are some of you out there that understand Scandinavian lingo I choose to put it on my homepage for downloading. Enjoy! -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Palm, Kevin R. (LLP)" Subject: Re: Brother Adam Video You're not referring to "The Monk and the Honeybee," are you?? Kevin Palm Grafton, Ohio ---------- From: Ian Watson To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Brother Adam Video Date: Friday, January 31, 1997 2:57PM On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Ted Wout wrote: > Does anyone out there know where one could find a copy of the PBS > special about Brother Adam. I've heard about it but never seen it. It > sure would be nice to purchase a copy if it's available for purchase. I would also be very interested in this information. I saw a special on our public tv station here in Ontario and I think it is the same one that Ted mentioned. So if anyone knows, please respond to the list, as I am sure other would like to know too...:) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 5 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:41:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Brother Adam Video In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Palm, Kevin R. (LLP) wrote: > You're not referring to "The Monk and the Honeybee," are you?? Um...Could bee....;) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ Ian Watson @ @ iwatson@freenet.npiec.on.ca @ @ @ @ THREE BEES: @ @ Bach singer ,/// @ @ Bee keeper >8'III}- @ @ Bell ringer ',\\\ @ @ @ @ 5 hives, 2 years in Beekeeping @ @ St. Catharines, Canada @ @ "I BEE, therefore I am" @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:18:16 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: ETO use in The U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Seeing as I am answering this personal email, I thought I might as well post the response, since I seem to have to keep repeating this (about using TM) every so often... > Also, do I understand you correctly when you say you have cleaned up > AFB-contaminated equipment using Terramycin to the point where bees > could be kept in the equipment without requiring Terramycin > treatment? I wouldn't consider running *any* hives, regardless of history, *on a commercial scale* around here without using a few TM treatments a year. So they do get a regular shot of TM in the spring and in the fall, if I get around to it. > If so, that would be news, as it goes against everything > I have ever heard on the subject. How do you go about consistently > getting such good results? As I have said many times, just double the dose that the government recommends, and make sure that the frames with honey or scale are cleaned up before cutting back on dosage. Of course, frames with more than a few scales are too much work for the bees, so I hesitate to use them -- except to amuse doubters ;) If I do give full frames of scale, I half-flatten the cells with a hive tool to damage trhe cell walls enough that the bees are forced to remove the scale. This was years ago when I bought some AFB infested equipment. I seldom see much AFB anymore. > Anyway, I don't feel that we are being asked to give up something > that was useless to begin with, or even something that can be > easily replaced with something simpler and safer. All the > equipment decontamination methods that I am aware of fall into the > "Do not try this at home - special training and equipment required" > catagory. Well, ETO is not all that safe. A beeekeeper might come up with one cost/benefit anaysis, a dispassionate outsider might arrive at another. For some reason ETO is not popular around here, although we had the best setup in North America -- if not the world -- and let it go. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Juergen Jaenicke Subject: L.I. Beekeepers Newsletter Dear beekeeping friends: Many of you have sent in requests for a copy of our "Beeline" newsletter. I tried to sent out as many as I could. However our newsletter is 12 pages and the postage comes to 53 cents. This runs into money. So if you like what you read and want more it will cost you. Please e-mail to me directly: jjimker@aol.com Best regards Juergen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:51:39 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Damon Subject: Beekeeping in the Caribbean I am in search of information about beekeeping in the Caribbean, in particular the island of Jamaica. Our family owns investment property on the southwest coast and quite a bit of time is spent there. However, I have had no luck in locating info or any beekeepers, communications can be very limited there. I know local honey is available in the markets but cannot find the source. I am interested in any information about the status of beekeeping in Jamaica or where such information may be found. Any Jamaican beekeepers looking to correspond ? Reply to private mail - tdamon@juno.com. Thanks. Tim Damon Ann Arbor, Michigan - U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:56:29 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jinnah Edun Subject: Re: Beekeeping in the Caribbean Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Tim, My dad kept bees in (British) Guyana many years ago and I was also involved to some extent. As the climate in Jamaica is similar to Guyana. I am writing to inquire if I can be of any assistance to you. Abbas