========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:24:56 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stewart Beattie Subject: Re: Fair Display Materials In-Reply-To: <01BC83C9.759FBFC0@sns-ca2-12.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 On Sat 28 Jun, Robert A. Roach wrote: > Hello all, > > I am designing a bee display for the County Fair in August and I hope some of you can > tell me where to get some bee materials. I'd especially like to find some paper bees, > the kind that fold out like an accordion to form a 3-dimensional > bee that can be suspended from above. I have a few but I don't know where to get more > . Paper flowers are also desired, but we can make those if need be. Any other bee ar > ts and craft ideas and suppliers of same are needed. > > In the past I have had an observation hive (always popular), lots of bee pictures, hiv > e products and equipment and a display on the Africanized honey bee. This year I'm th > inking of a theme like "Insect Friends of Agriculture" with emphas > is on the honey bee. > > Bob Roach > rroach@compuserve.com > > As I write this the floor area is covered with about 50 paper bees ready for the display at Lakeland Rose Show. see web page http://homepage.zynet.co.uk/bashabee/Rose97.html The basic paper bee starts life as the cardboard inertube of tissue roll. At the larva stage receives yellow and black colour stripes. Then is sealed with tissue a card face usually with a smile and wings. Before emerging legs are added. Some even have four legs? The bees spend their life buzzing from the end of cords in our marquee tent. Their life span finishes at the end of the show when the kids take off with them. The species appears again the next year when queen bee makes some more. Suggest if you ask a local school to run a project on beekeeping and ask for the kids to make bees you will end up with the funniest swarm you have ever seen. The Furness Beekeepers have an observation hive. It is always crowded, at times with two beekeepers talking to the visitors. All the best for your show Stewart Cumbria, UK. (an old Gable-Endie) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:10:36 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Resistant Webbed-footed Varroa monsters In-Reply-To: <199706230345.UAA00271@ferrari.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > 3. I wonder why Varroa has variability for a character like fluvalenate > resistance anyways ? Why do alelles that confer fluvalenate resistance > exist in natural Varroa populations...?... What about mutation? There are, I assume, billions upon billions of mites under pressure from fluvalinate. Any sucessful mutations would soon dominate. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:51:46 +0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Honey in Extractor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have been reading all the pro and con of the washing of the honey >extractor and have not seen anything > >about what I do, and now Im concerned. Im just a small timer, and only >have a two frame extractor, so > >after I was finished for the week, I just left the lid open and the bees >came and cleaned everything up just > >fine. I then only had to rinse things off. Anyone see a problem with >this. WALT in S.C. >pondsite@barnwellsc > Yes, I think it is a dangerous practice to use bees to clean up any honey in the extractor or in cappings for the simple reason that spores of diseases such as AFB and possibly also EFB and chalkbrood will be transferred. In the case of AFB, the disease is transmitted by bees feeding larvae with honey infected with spores. I believe chalkbrood is even more contagious. We clean our extractor basically after each honey flow (which might be 4 to 6 extractions over 2 months) and at the end of the season. We use a stainless steel extractor and wash with hot water and a hose and then drain in the sun to ensure no moisture remains - it is the mix of honey and water which is corrosive. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: burr comb on queen excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regarding the burr-combing, it seems like some colonies are predisposed to make a mess of things like that. Buckfast bees IME are remarkably reluctant to construct much burr comb, even with 9-fr in the brood nests. Certain other colonies will go nuts constructing quite a lot of burr/brace comb, and will clog up a queen-excluder but good. Dr. Morse has often recommended putting excluders on the hive roofs when not in use, where the sun will melt off some of the wax, and give the roof a certain amount of waterproof wax coating. I'm wondering about the Australian lid with the underlying mat -- in an intense honeyflow aren't some colonies apt to cram the lid full of combs and honey?? (Above the mat, I mean.) A number of commercial lids or inner-covers I have seen in use have a 3/8" - 1/2" rim on the underside. Can't say why -- the top-bee-space (the "standard" in North America) then ends up way too large, and the bees can plug that all up with burr comb, = pain-in-in-the-neck. Same goes for framed q-excluders with a bee-space on both sides. We have some brand-new hives we built, purchased from one of the MAJOR U.S. bee-suppliers, and were surprised to find that only a scant 3/16" or so space is provided above the frames, *and* the inner covers are FLAT on the bottom. There is barely a bee space over the frames. To put terramycin patties on, we have had to invert the inner cover. Several colonies built and filled big patches of burr comb in the space, before they would touch the undrawn plasticell foundation right there in the brood chamber. Go figure. Very swarmy year, from all accounts, around here. Wonder what it's been like in other areas. Kindest regards all, J. Govostes Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:29:33 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Susan Schock Subject: History Does anyone on this list know the history of who ,when,where etc. it was first discovered that bees could be enticed to build their hives in boxes? Are these called skeps? My gr. gr. grandfather was evidently doing this in upstate NY in the early 1800s. I was curious as to how early they began to do this. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: successful bee beard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to all of you that helped with suggestions on the bee beard. It was a great success for my wifes St. Ambrose day festival at her herbal/ candle/ soap shop. I had a two pound beard and only had a few stings to suffer. Everyone was impressed. Herbal Hint: rub fresh pennyroyal on lips and eyes to repel bees. Happy summer for those of us in the northern hemispere. Kirk *Kirk Jones/ Sleeping Bear Apiaries /971 S. Pioneer Rd./Beulah,MI 49617 *Sharon Jones/ BeeDazzled Candleworks /6289 River Rd./ Benzonia, MI 49616 e-mail b-man@aliens.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:03:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ross M Subject: Re: HELP...Bee Beard As I am thnking o the same lines for the Metcalfe fair in Ottawa Canada any hints or results would be appreciated. Also, how the bees and the queen returned to the hive. Ok or not. thanks, Ross ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:06:53 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ross M Subject: Re: Hive Carriers (So Far, Backsaver and Helvey Hive Carrier) Could you provide the address/fax number for BEE CULTURE as I would like to order a subscription Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:13:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: bartlett Subject: Re: History Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan, Skeps go back to the times of the Egyptians-----Over 7000 years. ---------- > From: Susan Schock > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: History > Date: 29 juin 1997 15:29 > > Does anyone on this list know the history of who ,when,where etc. it was > first discovered that bees could be enticed to build their hives in boxes? > Are these called skeps? My gr. gr. grandfather was evidently doing this in > upstate NY in the early 1800s. I was curious as to how early they began to do > this. > > Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 21:50:55 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Jones Subject: Mineral oil patties? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since food grade mineral oil seems successful should it be used in the oil/sugar/terra patties instead of vegetable oil? Steve Jones ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:28:00 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Graham Read EOS Subject: Hived swarm I hived my first swarm 10 days ago onto foundation. Found the queen a day later. Did a quick inspection yesterday, Bees drawing comb nicely, no eggs or larvae yet, but I was surprised to see two 'play cell' queen cells. Is this normal, or is it that I got a virgin queen and she hasn't mated yet, but why the started queen cells ? Cheers Graham Graham Read ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 08:15:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Hived swarm In a message dated 97-06-30 06:35:25 EDT, grahamr@eos.co.uk (Graham Read EOS) writes: << I hived my first swarm 10 days ago onto foundation. Found the queen a day later. Did a quick inspection yesterday, Bees drawing comb nicely, no eggs or larvae yet, but I was surprised to see two 'play cell' queen cells. Is this normal, or is it that I got a virgin queen and she hasn't mated yet, but why the started queen cells ? >> The old queen that goes with the swarm is usually superceded fairly quickly. Sounds like your are right on schedule. If you get completed cells and don't have eggs in another week, time to worry then; the queen may be shot already. It's always a good idea to give a swarm a frame of brood if you can. They'll take off like gangbusters. Plus it gives them some eggs for emergency queen rearing if necessary. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:20:11 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: William Deer Subject: Re: bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Good morning! An interesting site Http://www.beesting.com/ I have been regularly allowing bees to sting me now for over a year, one piece of advice - use long tweezers ---Dave from Scranton wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Kov wrote: > > I'm trying to find out more info on the effect of bee stings on the > > human body. Can you tell me or point me where to look? > > They hurt for about 15 minutes, then drive you mad when you > itch like HELL for about two weeks. > > > Thanks in advance for your help. This is research for a medical > > condition > > Oh...contact the apitherapy folks...8-} > > > ****************************************************************************** > Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | > The Internet Cafe | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | > (717) 344-1969 | > dave@scranton.com | > ****************************************************************************** > URL => http://www.scranton.com > _____________________________________________________________________ Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:06:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: Swarm returning to hive?????? I noticed a small swarm in a tree near my apiary. As I was preparing to capture the swarm, the bees started to slowly leave the swarm. They headed to a hive in the apiary, covering the front of the hive. After much buzzing and confusion, they eventually went into the hive. The hive they entered was a queenless split I had made a couple weeks ago from a hive that was preparing to swarm. (I split the original hive 3 ways, making sure each split had a frame with queen cells.) I assume one of the queen cells hatched and the swarm originated from this hive, but I can't figure out why it returned. Is it possible that the queen didn't leave the hive? Is this behavior common? Steve Phillips Perry, KS phillips@at01po.wpo.state.ks.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:25:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Swarm returning to hive?????? In a message dated 97-06-30 10:24:18 EDT, you write: << I noticed a small swarm in a tree near my apiary. As I was preparing to capture the swarm, the bees started to slowly leave the swarm. They headed to a hive in the apiary, covering the front of the hive. After much buzzing and confusion, they eventually went into the hive. >> I have seen the same thing and was wondering what was going on bees are always surprising me with something new and different. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:24:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: adding honey supers I read somewhere that it works better to add empty honey supers below the full honey supers. Is bottom supering important? Why? It seems impractical once you get 3 or 4 honey supers on. Steve Phillips Perry, KS phillips@at01po.wpo.state.ks.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:36:38 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Hived swarm In-Reply-To: <33B7FB67@EOSPOST.eos.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 30 Jun 97 at 11:28, Graham Read EOS wrote: > I hived my first swarm 10 days ago onto foundation. Found the queen > a day later. Did a quick inspection yesterday, Bees drawing comb > nicely, no eggs or larvae yet, but I was surprised to see two 'play > cell' queen cells. > > Is this normal, or is it that I got a virgin queen and she hasn't > mated yet, but why the started queen cells ? 'Play cells' are quite normal in any size of hive. The really are for emergency and are often not in an area where supercedure will take place. It matters not how big the hive is, I saw some recently in a baby nuc which had only a handful of bees and a brand new queen. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:06:57 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: adding honey supers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 30 Jun 97 at 9:24, STEVE PHILLIPS wrote: > I read somewhere that it works better to add empty honey supers > below the full honey supers. Is bottom supering important? Why? It > seems impractical once you get 3 or 4 honey supers on. Bees can not tolerate a space between them and a future food source, so they work even harder to fill the gap, even moving open stores from below. This is ideal as it keeps an open brood nest and prevents it getting clogged with incoming stores. Question? Why have 3 or 4 full supers on? Extra capital expenditure for sure. Get them off and extracted is my view, less work later in the year! ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:06:56 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Swarm returning to hive?????? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 30 Jun 97 at 9:06, STEVE PHILLIPS wrote: > I noticed a small swarm in a tree near my apiary. As I was > preparing to capture the swarm, the bees started to slowly leave the > swarm. They headed to a hive in the apiary, covering the front of > the hive. After much buzzing and confusion, they eventually went > into the hive. Almost certainly a mating swarm or a young queens first orientation flight. A bunch of bees trying to make sure their queen doesn't get lost. Not all that common, but a nice sight to watch! ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 19:29:25 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: cell size In-Reply-To: Richard Drutchas wrote: > If a smaller cell size discourages varroa how come the africanized bees with its smaller cells cant handle the mites? > From what I have read, the so called africanized bee is actually just an african bee as the hybrids don't function very well. Experiments have shown that the impact of varroa mites on african bees is negligible. That's why the african bee still exists in feral forms all over whereas the europeam bee does not where it occurred as it was wiped out. The resistence of A.m.scutellata to varroa is about the same as A.cerana to varroa. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray "Opinions expressed in this post may be those 15 Park Road of Pritz, my cat, who knows a lot about Grahamstown catfood." 6140 *garth@rucus.ru.ac.za* South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 In general, generalisations are bad. But don't worry BEEEEEE happy. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "P. Aras et M. Boily" Subject: Mutations? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> 3. I wonder why Varroa has variability for a character like >>fluvalenate >> resistance anyways ? Why do alelles that confer fluvalenat >>resistance >> exist in natural Varroa populations...?... >What about mutation? There are, I assume, billions upon billions of >mites >under pressure from fluvalinate. Any sucessful mutations would soon >dominate. >Allen Insect resistance to pesticides is not the results of mutation. If an given specie of insect is poisened by a pesticide they will not transform themselves (mutate) to be resistant to that substance. Pesticide resistance of a specie is the result of a more or less small proportion of the population: Of the billions of individuals that form a specie there are always some that are slightly different as a result of errors in the replication of their genetic code. As a result there is always a small proportion of the bugs that will survive to the pesticide and since they are the only survivors able to reproduce they will transmit this resistance to their descendants and soon populations of the pest will be back to normal or even cause problems worse than before. Integrated pest management is compulsery unless we want to introduce more and more pesticides in our environment. And remember that toxicity tests of a substance is based on relatively short term and that the action on humans of bio-accumulation of many years of exposure is almost impossible to determine for economic reasons but also because we are exposed to many other substances and it is therefore impossible to associated an illness to a particular substance. We have to find intelligent solutions, like the one promoted by Dr. Rodriguez. They are often more trouble than to use commercially available pesticides but, and nobody can tell, maybe you wont die of cancer in 20 years or so as a result of pesticide usage. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "P. Aras et M. Boily" Subject: Re: History MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Does anyone on this list know the history of who ,when,where etc. it >was >first discovered that bees could be enticed to build their hives in >boxes? >Are these called skeps? My gr. gr. grandfather was evidently doing >this in >>upstate NY in the early 1800s. I was curious as to how early they >began to do >this. Susan Hi susan, Pottery vessels were used to keep bees 5000 B.C. (from "The hive and the honey bee" edited by Dadant and Son's, USA. chapter 1) Phil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:14:57 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: bits and pieces Hi all Just thought I would share some interesting things that I have seen to do with bees lately: I removed a beehive a few days ago from a three storey building. I put up scaffolding below the entrance. The bees in my area are usually docile and safe, but these seemed to have more of their true african bee haemolymph than the rest and they flattened me. It is much more difficult putting scaffolding up with a bee suit on! Anyhow, I drilled out four bricks to a happy cloud of bees. Got into the hive and found that the other side of the wall was actually below the bath in the flat. This is in a school so the bath is well used and a pipe runs from the geyser through the hive. This goes to a hostle kitchen where cooking happens all day. Anyhow, I removed about sixty kilograms of comb, capped, from the hive. The brood nest would equate to about seven or eight frames. For the middle of winter this hive was cooking! Anyhow, I removed the bees and came back the next day to patch the hole. The bees were really lucky with this spot! I felt inside and it was about luke warm in there, heated by the pipe! So that's how they got away with such a big winter nest! Most of my hives have only two or three frames now for winter, and the weakest have less than one. Secondly, a few months back one of my hives swarmed. I had it near a train line, and just as the bees were moving the train went by and they all settled on the branch again? Is this a confirmation of the thunder and lightening/bangin pots theory? Then there are the things that crawl into the hives: So far I have found: Slugs-more and more of the slime balls Snails-on the top board Earthworms: I found three earthworms in the middle of the broodnest, curled up in cells. It appears they like the moisture. A legless skink: gave me the fright of my life as it is like a small snake. Anyhow, those are my strange sightings and interesting things (well at least they seem to be interesting to me) Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray "Opinions expressed in this post may be those 15 Park Road of Pritz, my cat, who knows a lot about Grahamstown catfood." 6140 *garth@rucus.ru.ac.za* South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 In general, generalisations are bad. But don't worry BEEEEEE happy. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:01:29 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodrifuez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Mineral oil patties? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Steve Jones wrote: > Since food grade mineral oil seems successful should it be used in the > > oil/sugar/terra patties instead of vegetable oil? > Steve Jones > > Good afternoon. Definitely. I tried sugar patties with mineral oil last year. I added high protein flour as a supplement for protein and as vehicle to hold the mineral oil. Judging by my observations in those limited trials, it is my opinion that mineral oil patties will prove to be preferable to those that utilize vegetable type oils, Crisco, etc. because the mineral oil does not become rancid as vegetable oils do. One limitation that I noticed during those trials is that mineral oil tends to run out of the patties. But, with a suitable vehicle like soy bean flour the patties should hold sufficient oil to be effective. I will be continuing my assays this fall again and promise to post my findings to Bee-L next Spring. Good luck.Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:06:37 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Mutations? In-Reply-To: <33B7FE0B.1C5@montrealnet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > 3. I wonder why Varroa has variability for a character like > >fluvalenate resistance anyways ? Why do alelles that confer > >fluvalenate resistance exist in natural Varroa populations...?... > >What about mutation? There are, I assume, billions upon billions of >mites > >under pressure from fluvalinate. Any sucessful mutations would soon > >dominate. > Insect resistance to pesticides is not the results of mutation. If an > given specie of insect is poisened by a pesticide they will not transform > themselves (mutate) to be resistant to that substance. Pesticide > resistance of a specie is the result of a more or less small proportion > of the population: Of the billions of individuals that form a specie > there are always some that are slightly different as a result of errors > in the replication of their genetic code... Are not some -- or all -- of these individuals what we call mutants? Mutations are constantly occuring in any population. Some are successful, many are not. Some mutant characteristics are passed on, some are not. My point was that IMO It is not *necessary* that fluvalinate resistance actually pre-existed in a varroa population before coming under pressure (as Adony seemed to suggest), since there is a some chance that such a mutation could occur at any time. Should it occur when the population is under fluvalinate pressure, any such successful mutant specimens would tend to survive better than non mutants and therefore their fluvalinate resistance characteristics could be well represented in any survivors. Allen Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:06:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Backsaver In a message dated 97-06-26 16:52:00 EDT, Arron Morris wrote: << One funny thing at the trade show was that few people paid attention to the Backsaver display. Perhaps it was a macho thing - "REAL men don't have to worry about their backs!". >> I got such a kick out of this. One could paraphrase that "REAL women look for the easiest way to do things and don't worry about being macho." Strength (or lack of it) pervades. But seriously, wouldn't it be easier to run our hives with nothing but shallow supers - four for a "two brood chamber" basic hive and the rest for honey? That way everything would be eminently interchangable. As a beginner, I eagerly went out and bought all "the right stuff", i.e. deep brood chambers. It was quickly apparent that they were just too heavy for me to handle. A fully loaded super is about all I can handle, unless I can con my somewhat bee-phobic husband into helping. After l7 years of beekeeping and recently having hit the "half century mark," I'm moving slowly to the all shallow situation. Can anyone see a problem with that? Thanks! Faith Andrews Bedford, Ivy VA and Tampa FL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:06:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Light colored honey Ken Lawrence in his response to the thread of light colored honey took the time to identify where he was writing from. This is really helpful to those of us reading the Bee-L and I would encourage others to do the same. Although I realize that many of you/us have been on the line for awhile and know each other and where our bees are kept, so much of what we says needs to be put into a regional context that, without an "address", it can cause confusion. Also, thanks to all of you who take so much time to explain, answer questions, offer opinions. I don't know where you find the time. But it is good of you all to share so abundantly of your experience and time. Best regards, Faith Andrews Bedford Ivy, VA and Tampa, FL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:42:48 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodrifuez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Backsaver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Faith. In he Spanish culture there is a book of adages with one applicable just for about any subject that one might be thinking. The one that I thinking about regarding your preference for shallow suppers would read pretty much like: "to each his own." Regarding your questions about sizes, my personal opinion would be that as a beekeeper I want ample areas for the queen to lay as is that of regular size frames. Honey frames limit the area for egg-laying and thus one's bee population. But, if small size compensates for easiness of handling your boxes, why not? Just remember that will have to provide additional shallow boxes to take up the space that you would normally have for your incubation area, especially with young queens and during the egg laying season. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:31:04 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: adony melathopoulos Subject: Re: MORE on Mutant MITES !!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For anyone who cares about this thread : What I said : >> > 3. I wonder why Varroa has variability for a character like >> >fluvalenate resistance anyways ? Why do alelles that confer >> >fluvalenate resistance exist in natural Varroa populations...?... Allen Dick's response : >> >What about mutation? There are, I assume, billions upon billions of >mites >> >under pressure from fluvalinate. Any sucessful mutations would soon >> >dominate. P. Aras et M. Boily response to Allen : >> Insect resistance to pesticides is not the results of mutation. If an >> given specie of insect is poisened by a pesticide they will not transform >> themselves (mutate) to be resistant to that substance. Pesticide >> resistance of a specie is the result of a more or less small proportion >> of the population: Of the billions of individuals that form a specie >> there are always some that are slightly different as a result of errors >> in the replication of their genetic code... Well, what about mutation ? One scientist that has done much work on the genetics of resistance development in insects is Dr. Fred Gould at North Carolina State Univ. From a review he wrote for a book titled 'Evolution of Insect Pests, Patterns of Variation' he writes : 'Most genetic mutants are thought to be less fit than common genotypes and should usually be removed from a population by natural selection. Even if a mutant is equal in fitness to common genotypes, it is likely to be lost from the population due to random mortality. If one of the 1000 eggs laid by a female is a genetic mutant and, on average, only 2 of these 1,000 eggs escape mortality factors before they reproduce, there is only 1 chance in 500 that the mutant will not be lost from the population in the first generation... If the mutant is more fit than other individuals, its chance of surviving is somewhat greater, but it is still likely to be lost from the population. For example, let us consider two mutants, one with half the fitness of average individuals in a population (mutant H) and the other with twice the fitness of average individuals in a population (mutant T). Each is the offspring of a single female lays 1,000 eggs. Mutant H has a (0.5) x (1/500) or 1 in 1,000 chance of surviving to reproduce, wheras mutant T has a (2.0) x (1/500) or 1 in 250 chance of surviving to reproduce in the first generation' Phew, that was a lot to copy out. Dr. Gould goes on to write that the only way rare mutants can get going in a population is if the population is quite small and experiences little gene flow with surrounding outside populations. Now, adapt Dr. Gould's logic over to Varroa. Let's say a mutation occurs in an infested colony that confers a selective advantage to Varroa in the presence of Apistan strips. These mutations are likely to occur very rarely, as mutations are rare events to begin with and most of them result in gibbled offspring that don't survive very long. The advantageous mutation to this rare Varroa mite also likely will not confer 100 % resistance to Apistan, but rather, some elevated level of resistance (say 25 % more resistant than the average resistance found in natural Varroa populations). For the sake of agruement lets say the mutant is 100 % resistant to Apistan, and the Apistan doesn't result in any sublethal effects to that mutant. Suppose every mite in the colony, the mutant excluded, dies following application with Apistan. The mutant needs only to emerge from the cell healthy, locate a suitable cell for reproduction, have offspring that develop normally and the resistance will have become established (assuming the resistance is highly heritable). Not all Varroa will survive development, not all will find a cell, not all will reproduce when they find a cell, although I would guess the odds are much better than in Dr. Gould's example. Once that mutant Varroa's offspring get going and begin recolonizing the freshly Apistaned colony, the high amount of inbreeding (? - unresolved, sort of, from an old post) would likely make loss of the trait though outbreeding with Apistan suseptible stains of mite unlikely. Hmmm. How likely is all that to occur. Let me list the events that have to occur to get to our colony infested with resistant Varroa : 1 - rare mutation conveying improved resistance to Apistan occurs (mutation has not negatively correlated with some other important gentic character needed by Varroa) 2 - resistance is complete and apistan is unlikely to result in mutant mortality or reduced fitness (e.g. reproductive capibilities remain totaly intact) 3 - mite lives long enough to have offspring and offspring make it to adulthood. 4 - outbreeding with a huge population of Apistan suceptible mites does not wash away the resistance (yet another reason to study the outbreeding capacity of Varroa). I think there may be something to this scenario. Nonetheless Allen, you must agree, the more established a resistance character in a population the more likely it is to surface. Having said that, I still wonder how resitance gets going in this strangely unique pest system beekeepers face (a possibly highly inbred pest which is seemingly adapted to nothing else but living off honey bees). I suspect some long held truths established by scientists in other agriculural pest systems would be challenged if someone spent time on this problem. I hope someone out there is interested in talking about this problem a little more. *********************************** ** Adony P. Melathopoulos ********* *** Center for Pest Management **** **** Simon Fraser University ****** ***** Burnaby, British Columbia *** ****** Canada, V5A-1S6 ************ *********************************** Tel : (604) 291-4163 Fax : (604) 291-3496 e-mail : melathop@sfu.ca "The pursuit of agriculture promotes the strength of the mind as well as the body" - Rev. John L. Blake, 1853 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:07:46 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gerry Visel Subject: Is It Swarmy or What??? Two weeks ago, I got a call at work that one of my hives was swarming. I rushed home, and sure enough, there was a football sized ball on the branch about 20 feet straight above the hives. To make a long story short, I climbed up and shook the branch, and they flew away. :-( Last Sunday, I was working on the car, and the kids came running again! They were in a different tree this time, and I'd had a bit of time to think. (Sometimes...) I threw a rope over the branch they were on and pulled up a 5 gallon plastic bucket squirted with some honey right under them. Shook the branch again and got a decent sized clump to drop in. Lowered them down and dumped into a hive body. (Always have an extra!!!) Tried it a few more times, with less success each time. Then my daughter says "Why don't you just pull the hive body up?" Tied the rope around it four ways, and tried that. Magic! I shook the branch to get some on top of the frames, and, Voila!, in they marched! Inside of ten minutes, there weren't any more on the branch! Lowered the box, added top and bottom, and now have a new hive! (I know, I shouldn't have let them get so crowded, but...) Catching a swarm is a neat feeling! Gerry Visel Winnebago, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 22:55:35 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Friends Comments: To: Pat@Lynchburg.NET, cfwc1@gil.net Comments: cc: kakiaxo@AOL.Com, TheKolonel@Top.Monad.Net, FOYBOY@gil.net, Kellenbenz@AOL.Com, MCKECHNIES@juno.com, southern1@mindspring.com, treym@bridge.net, C.Tindall@juno.com ~~^v^~~ FRIENDS ~~^v^~~ What is a friend? One soul dwelling in two bodies. --Aristotle There are not many things in life so beautiful as true friendship, and not many things more uncommon. --Unknown Sometimes you have to grow farther apart to keep growing together. --Unknown A friend is a gift you give yourself. --Robert Louis Stevenson To have a friend, be a friend. --Old saying We have been friends together in sunshine and in shade. --Caroline Norton Things are never quite as scary when you have a best friend. --Bill Watterson I'd like to be the sort of friend that you have been to me, I'd like to be the help that you've been always glad to be; I'd like to mean as much to you each minute of the day, as you have meant old friend of mine, to me along the way. --Edgar A. Guest When we are grown we'll smile and say we had no cares in childhoood's day- But we'll be wrong... 'Twill not be true. I've this much care... I care for you. --Unknown Don't be dismayed at goodbyes. A farewell is before you can meet again. And meeting again after a moment or lifetime is certain for those who are friends. --Richard Bach Cherish friendship in your breast. New is good but old is best. Make new friends but keep the old, new is silver, the other is gold. --Anonymous Yesterday brought the beginning, tomorrow brings the end but somewhere in the middle we've become the best of friends. --Unknown Ah! How good it feels the hand of an old friend. --Longfellow A friend walks in when the rest of the world walks out. --Anonymous Happiness isn't the easiest thing to find, but one place you're guaranteed to find it is in a friend's smile. --Allison Poler A friend is someone who truly cares, A friend is someone who's always there, A friend will be there in times of woe, Talking, laughing, and sometime letting go, Times alone we sometimes need, But coming back we will do indeed, There may be times we may not agree, For you are you and I am me, We may argue because of that fact, But our power of friendship will bring us back, Cause the love in our hearts we feel inside, Is not something we would ever hide, So come to me in times of need, Cause you my dear always have a friend in me. --Smiles @}--}---}--- HAPPY ONLINE ---{---{--{@ FRIENDSHIP WEEK! @->->>- ^v^ -<<-<-@ To a friend, from a friend Pass it on to those who deem worthy of your time and friendship. *And remember never to forget who your friends are. @->->>- ^v^ -<<-<-@ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Wolford MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After introducing packaged bees into a knew hive with just 4 frame of drawn comb about 3 weeks ago, I have been feeding a 1 to 1 sugar syrup to stimulate comb building activity. How long do I need to do this? So far I have fed them about 6 gallons of syrup. John M. Wolford jmwolford@kih.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 19:00:30 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dennis Subject: Backsaving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Faith Andrews Bedford asked for comments on using all = shallow sized equipment as a back saving measure. Here in Southern Oregon, many of us have gone to 8 frame boxes for severa= l reasons. The bees seem to do well in them under the conditions we have= here. More of them fit on the truck for pollination. They are 2 frame= s lighter, and those are the heaviest frames (the 2 furthest out) in ter= ms of back stress. Contributing to the decision to use this combination of equipment is the = pollination standard of 8 frames of bees for a minimum size of a pollinat= ing hive and the generally low honey flow/production of this area. A col= ony '1 1/2 stories' is effectivly 12 frames of bees, exceeding the minimu= m standard for pollination strength. 2 deep supers will hold more than = the average 'surplus' honey in this area. Of the 12-15 or so beekeepers in the area that do commercial pollinatio= n, with from 100 to 1500 colonies each, I believe only 2 are using 10 fra= me equipment at this time. Those that use 8 frame equipment use a deep = brood chamber and then either a second deep (to simplify equipment proble= ms) or a western. (Dadant medium depth) Honey supers may be either size,= depending mostly on what the beekeeper has on hand to use. Down side? More swarming preasure in the 8 frame equipment sometimes, = slightly more cost on a 'per-frame' basis (8 frame wood is usually the = same price as 10), more pieces of equipment for the same honey crop. The= y ( 8 frame ) also tip over a bit easier if you do end up stacking them = UP some. In my humble opinion, while there would be a weight advantage, the shallo= w depth would seem to be to much lost space (in terms of working comb) = with the bee space, top bar and bottom bar between boxes. A good comprom= ise seems to be western depth equipment and plastic frames, with thinner = top and bottom bars and a consequent gain in usable comb area. The choic= e between 10 frame or 8 frame equipment seems to be as much local conditi= ons as personal preference. My thought for some time now (especially when moving honey filled boxes) = is why not all 8 frame westerns? Hmm. Lets see, about 10% more in equip= ment costs per hive, all the same size boxes (but more of them!)...... = Hmm. Easier to lift, easier to get the bees out of. Hmm. Dennis Morefield Sideline Beekeeper, Oregon, USA denmar@mind.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:43:10 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Drutchas wrote: > > Early on I was hearing that AHB was more tolerant to varroa now Im > hearing that its varroa that is holding AHB back in southern Texas. How > about it is varroa killing feral AHB in Brazil? Check out the work being done by Dr. L DeGuzman. She has found that the varroas in S America are different than the ones in N America. The ones in N America are more deadly to honey bees. This may be why it seemed that African bees are resistant in S America and are suseptable in N America.