========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:39:03 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Bees Eat only Liquids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > The size of the solid food found in the bees gut is measured in microns so > what ever they take can flow in with ease as a liquid. Hi Andy and All: If that is the case, (and forgetting for the moment about possible exceptional bee-treats like little chunks of salted Andy candy) then I am wondering why we have never come up with a liquid pollen or pollen substitute/extender diet for spring feeding. I can see that one would not want to have this sort of thing for winter feeding because mostly the adults are feeding on the syrup and it might give them some dysentery and is also unnecessary. But in the spring, when syrup is being used mostly for brood rearing it would seem a possibility. You mentioned that you have done some experiments with liquid feeding, Andy. Could you elaborate on this a little, please. What were the results? Thanks, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:17:46 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stefan Stepansky Subject: list of distributors ..another ? From: MX%"root@7seas.acad.bg" 10-SEP-1997 15:42:49.05 To: MX%"gwdim@bgcict.acad.bg" CC: Subj: Return-Path: Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 03:32:04 -0200 (GMT-0200) From: root To: gwdim@bgcict.acad.bg Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, Thanks to all who help me to build my list of suppliers for bee equipment. I found many www sites for bee equipment but I couldn't understand whether the wooden frames are selling wired and the price ( ~ 0,60 $US/each) include spacers ? Ragards Stefan ---------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan Stepansky jk. "Mladost" 4, tel. : +359(2)74 58 36 bl.444, vh.4, et.4 e-mail: gwdim@bgcict.acad.bg Sofia -- 1715 Bulgaria ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:16:02 -0400 Reply-To: blomrj@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rita Blom Subject: Re: Newsflash! BEE-L LISTSERV Balks at high volume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a beginner and will always bee, because I simply have too many things on the go. I enjoy the current filtering because it seems to focus on the factual stuff rather than on anecdotal stuff. The only things I feel should bee further filtered are the rather long personal accounts of " my first year as a beekeeper" and the like. Certainly does not add real knowledge to my life anyways and I really do not want to read this stuff. I do however enjoy these anecdotes when they are published and I can read them in book form as light entertainment. I guess I would like to see this outlet as an educational outlet as it is seasonal and timely and people who have access to current research can share it here. Anyhow, keep up the good work. //---------------------------------------------------------- // Rita Blom // blomrj@ibm.net // Errington, BC ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:53:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Have received no mail I have not received any mail from B-List since 09/11/97. What is going on ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:12:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit test only....I don't know if its just me that hasn't got any email from bee-l for several days. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Douglas Davis Subject: Dark versus Light Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am completing my first season raising bees. I and my kids have truly enjoyed them. I routinely recommend beekeeping as a hobby now. My hive is in North-central Texas ( south of Fort Worth ) in a rural area. I began the hive with package bees in Aril, they quickly filled 2 brood boxes and have filled 4 shallow honey supers over the summer. Sucess !!!!!!! My question arises as I have begun to harvest the Honey. Of the 4 honey supers, the first 2 yielded the most delightful honey...... light amber colored and very light / sweet taste.... it is great. The last 2 supers contained honey that was much different. The honey is dark colored, thick and has a very strong ( not too pleasent ) flavor. In fact, we have concluded that the bees will get to keep these 2 supers for themselves. My question is : Is this normal ( due to nectar type )? Or is there something that I am doing or not doing that has produced these 2 very different products? Naturally , I would prefer 4 supers of the 1st type of honey. Your help is very much appreciated....... Gig - em Aggies. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:10:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dusty Subject: Re: Newsflash! BEE-L LISTSERV Balks at high volume In-Reply-To: <15101021723690@systronix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You have been doing a great job. Pass along what you think is important... junk the rest. Dusty "BEAUTY IS IN THE HANDS OF THE BEERHOLDER" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:23:43 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stephan Seely Subject: Shook Swarm-Comb Honey ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=92m planning on trying my hand at comb honey next year. From what I=92= ve read shook swarm is the way to go. I have no hands on experience, I only kno= w what I=92ve read. Any advice on this procedure would be gratefully appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:36:29 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Still no mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All The silence is deafening! - and a vast amount of knowledge of bees is left undistributed. When will the good times return? What is happening? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:36:43 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit test message sorry to bother everyone. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:09:23 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wiz Dumb Subject: . Hi all Can someone tell me if the list is still up? Thank YOU David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:50:23 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Removing propolis from bee suit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All What solvent should I use to remove propolis stains from my bee suit? Thanks for the help Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:31:37 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: No Mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I have had no mail for a couple of days What have I done? Tom Barrett cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:17:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Brown to Green Saturday September 13, 1997 Los Banos, California USA Its still Brown season here, our last rains were mighty but short and stopped in February several months earlier then normal after doing much damage because a years worth of rain came in a few short weeks. Now today as I am surrounded by no less then three computer screens with the color TV playing in the background I ask myself not only why do TV's have screens but what if I had only had one of these pc's when I was in high school? No doubt in my own mind my life would have been different but alas they have for the most part only replaced the radio and tv as another avenue of pleasure and now communication between beekeepers and friends. Right now I am miles high looking down on the clouds that cover the eastern pacific, something I could not have even dreamed of doing in high school with a computer costing millions and filling a room without at least leaving the comfort of my home office and here comes LINDA, a real hurricane, and hopefully a tropical storm when she makes her move on California. You see we in California have never had a hurricane or even seen one up close and personal. We are human and fear not what we can not see so if we get a real hurricane you can expect the loss of life and property to be much higher then it would in areas that know about them as so many here will want to see one. We had a close one the year before I was born and 40 people who made the mistake of walking down to the sea for a up close and personal look never walked back. The storm is still a few days off and everything is normal, 90 degrees, Brown, and lots of sun. The experts say this hurricane is going to move north and change into nothing more then a tropical storm, before it turns on California. But these are government men who can't even agree on when its going to rain, everyone knows here that a 10% chance of rain translates into one weather man out of ten voting for rain. It is also a fact that what the daytime weather man gives you the night time one takes away. Never could understand why the two shifts did not at least rotate once en a while. I got the feeling this time, maybe its my sore noise, the one with the sun cancer now the size of a quarter, from second hand smoke no doubt about it or maybe just one load too many of chewing tobacco spat into the wind.. This one is different, its a first, and its heading straight for my noise and no man from the government is going to change that. I guess I will wait and see what happens but I have no plans for any trips to the coast which is less then one hundred miles west of Los Banos. It used to be a lot closer but as I have grown older the distance seems to have increased, who would believe I once thought making the trip five times a week to work bees was great fun. When LINDA hits, if she hits, things will change, some non-believers will be believers and others will be gone forever. One inch of rain here is a lot when your annual total is many times less then ten, (Linda could bring 15 inches of rain to the coast and less inland), the official amount typical of a desert is 10 inches or less, but most deserts get more then we do, anyway after the damage is done, measured, and clean up starts, our Green time starts and from that day its only 30 more until the first flowers and how to get the bees to fly in a early cold Green season is another story few around can tell as no one lives that has ever seen a hurricane come ashore in California. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. 91397 --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ http://194.112.46.22/public/default.htm (Amigabee BBS) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:17:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Raw Honey Standards Hi Kim, I'd like to see the standards you are talking about on raw honey. A year ago the USDA was looking into standards for organic honey, but I have not heard anything lately from them. I think I will have to give them a call and see what's up. Thanks, David Morris Laurel, Md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:50:17 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brett D Bannon Subject: Frame spacing Which of the following spacings would allow more honey in the super (A)--Frames spaced loosely (eight or nine frames per super). Bees extend comb past frame edges allowing uncapping knives to open each cell. (B)--Supers completely filled with frames (ten frames per super). Uncapping is difficult for knives but uncapping forks may be used. Also, if after ten frame spacing is used and extracting is done with a fork, will bees keep the cell depth the same if you switch to a nine frame spacing? Since to capping fork doesn't slice off the end of the cell (like a knife does) will the bees keep then at that depth, or will they then build them on out? Just Wondering!---I'm sure the honey industry hinges on this question.:-) Brett D. Bannon Folsom, NM USA bbannon@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:24:17 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les H Vaughn Subject: Re: putonium in space Oops! I accidently sent my reply to this guy via the list. Sorry 'bout that. The other list I use automaticaly routs replies to the individual sender, not back to the list like this one seems to do. Gotta watch that. Les Vaughn leslist@juno.com Macedonia, Illinois USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:20:51 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wiz Dumb Subject: . HIi all Has the list been dead or I am not getting mail Can someone let me know Thank You David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:06:58 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lars Chittka Comments: To: chittka@life.bio.sunysb.edu Comments: cc: erhard.maier@biologie.uni-regensburg.de, vb10006@cus.cam.ac.uk, buchmann@ccit.arizona.edu, t-fuku@cc.miyakyo-u.ac.jp, kjones@wellesley.edu, jankunze@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, thomas.carew@yale.edu, smbhdmh@ucl.ac.uk, robbi@.zedat.fu-berlin.de, helver@zoo2-pc.biologie.uni-erlangen.d400.de, vorobyev@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, arroyo%cica.es.biocyb@uni-tuebingen.de, randy@cognet.ucla.edu, timothy.goldsmith%yale.edu.johns@usp.br, zeil@rsbs.anu.edu.au, i.cuthill@bristol.ac.uk, di5@umail.umd.edu, jm123@uk.ac.cam.phx, d.osorio@sussex.ac.uk, unitz@t-online.de, unitz@mac-ev.de, lunau@rz.uni-duesseldorf.de, sandoval@lifesci.ucsb.edu, a.k.turner@sussex.ac.uk, clcraig@minerva.cis.yale.edu, cronin@umbc7.umbc.edu, romo1434@mailszrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de, coi01@keele.ac.uk, s.m.wuerger@keele.ac.uk, pkevan@.uoguelph.ca, socinsct@uacsc2.albany.edu, emil.menzel@sunysb.edu, wenner@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu, polpal-l@uoguelph.ca, jacobs@psych.ucsb.edu, batya@vms.huji.ac.il, pkaiser@vm1.yorku.ca, dukas%ubc.bcu.ca.NWILLIAM@life.bio.sunysb.edu, hcbio028@email.csun.edu, rabi306@uvm.haifa.ac.il, kristina.clenaghan@sunysb.edu, bgydgt@west-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk, niko@mpik-tueb.mpg.de, dventura@usp.br, rwthorp@ucdavis.edu, beckmar@rockvax.rockefeller.edu, i-timokhina@ski.mskcc.org, greggers@castor.zedat.fu-berlin.de, ej_melendez@cuhac.upr.clu.edu, j_ackerman@upr1.upr.clu.edu, harald.e.esch.1@nd.edu, joerges@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, fstollni@nsf.gov, tim_falkenhagen@tanagraphics.com, rstevenson@umbsky.cc.umb.edu, agumber%ibm.net.hucho@csd.uwm.edu, achittka@mail.med.cornell.edu, biermann@life.bio.sunysb.edu, jt@life.bio.sunysb.edu, mcpheron@nature.berkeley.edu, jmfdcama@usp.br, ninamd@zedat.fu-berlin.de, fhell@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, gerber@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, mhammer@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, kwadding@fig.cox.miami.edu, tegtmeier@springer.de, miriam@zool.unizh.ch, chrisz@berlin.snafu.de, t.s.collett@sussex.ac.uk, schistos@ag.arizona.edu, teese@life.bio.sunysb.edu, sl104@.cam.ac.uk, j.c.partridge@bris.ac.uk, cr108@mercury.anglia.ac.uk, nevr2134@mailszrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de, rbarfiel@nsf.gov, ciz48170@centum.utulsa.edu, a.hildrew@qmw.ac.uk, ltm@cns.nyu.edu, mb135@cam.ac.uk, jgurvtch@life.bio.sunysb.edu, psaal@ccmail.sunysb.edu, palacios@uv.cl, soro@life.bio.sunysb.edu, andy.bennett@bris.ac.uk, akb@brownvm.brown.edu, john.endler@jcu.edu.au, biol_psh@centum.utulsa.edu, ackerman@upracd.upr.clu.edu, peter@nauvax.ucc.nau.edu, wiegmann@indiana.edu, nedlin@neptune.nrl.navy.mil, weissm@gusun.georgetown.edu, bsmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, hendrik_rosenboom@mckinsey.com, shafir.1%osu.edu.waser@ucrac1.ucr.edu, michael.axelrod@sunysb.edu, cmora@life.bio.sunysb.edu, kstudholme@brain.bio.sunysb.edu, lhkw2@cam.ac.uk, pflueger@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, bertholl@biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de, msmangel@ucdavis.edu, pjh@oup-usa.org, windisch@i3.dfg.d400.de, windisch@dfg.d400.de, verkerk@koppert.com, vk@socium.usr.pu.ru, sergei.boitsov@unilever.com, biol_hw@centum.utulsa.edu, oliver.hammerstein@iib3.dfg.d400.de, joerg.chittka@ikb.de, scottarm@alfa.itea.ntnu.no, biol_psh@centum.utulsa.edu, cvnet@skivs.ski.org, frison@hochschulverband.de, ichase@ccvm.sunysb.edu, personal@zv.uni-wuerzburg.de, fangorn4@aol.com, giurfa@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de, laserpages@netmedia.net.il, menzel@neuro.biologie.fu-berlin.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear friends, my move to the old world is now complete, to the degree that I have an email address, a phone & fax number, and even a mailing address! (I still don't have an appartment, but I guess that too will work out eventually).=20 Best wishes, Lars Chittka Biozentrum Zoologie II Am Hubland D-97074 W=FCrzburg Email: chittka@biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de Phone: 0931 - 8884321 Fax: 0931 - 8884309=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:56:31 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Sevigny, Marc" Subject: Overwintering questions/problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Hi, > > First year beekeeper. I've been doing plenty of reading, but ran into > a problem > and have some questions. > > When watching others managing their hives, I've noticed that other > hives > don't seem to have as high a bee population as mine does. Is there > lots > of variation? > > When my two honey supers were mostly capped, I added a third super, > but > "bottom supered". I guess the queen ran out of brood space and ended > up > laying in the the bottom honey super (I obviously didn't use a queen > excluder). > > I live in Massachusetts, so should be medicating now. I received > advice from > folks to locate the queen, make sure she is in one of the two hive > bodies, then > add the queen excluder between the hive bodies and the honey super, > let the > brood hatch out, then remove the honey super for overwintering and > medicate. > > Well, all didn't go according to plan. I was unable to locate the > queen. Again, > the population of bees seems so much higher in my hive compared to > others > I've seen. Each frame is covered with bees, sometimes 2 deep, and > this is mid- > day with good weather. I had no luck in locating the queen (although > there were > very young eggs in the frames of the honey super). In my attempts to > locate the > queen, I spent so much time examining the frames looking for her among > the > mass of bees, the bees were tiring of my examination and were getting > annoyed. > > I was also afraid of accidently injuring/killing the queen each time > I'd replace a > frame, since there were so many bees. > > QUESTION: Is the population of bees ever so high that the standard > 80-90lbs > of honey recommended for overwintering (in the north) is inadequate? > I'm > wondering if I should let them have the honey super for overwintering, > too (I've > already extracted the other two honey supers). The honey super has > two frames > with eggs and brood, the remaining frames are mostly capped honey and > nectar. At this point, should I medicate and leave the honey super on > all > winter? > > My other choice is to again try to locate the queen in the mass (I > still might > not be successful before the bees get annoyed) and exclude, then > eventually > remove the honey super when the brood is all gone. I could then feed > the honey > to the bees in the spring. I could also medicate in 21 days (after > the brood hatch) > but that is getting to be too late for my area. > > Or is it safer to let the bees have the extra honey in the super? > > Thanks for the advice. > > Marc ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:54:41 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Patricia Elkins Subject: cost to new beekeepers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, I'd like to start beekeeping sometime in the near future. Could some beginning beekeepers comment on what they see as the average cost of a new operation? It seems to me that beekeeping will turn out to be a very expensive hobby if it costs $500+ just to start learning from your mistakes! Please send replies to my email address as well as to the list if you wish as I am only receiving BEST-OF-BEE and might miss your answers. Thanks so much for your help! Trissa Elkins trissa@gene.com SF Bay area ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:02:17 +0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: novice bee removal story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The bee veil wasn't sufficiently tight. It's possible that NO >bee veil is sufficiently tight to stop 200+ kamikaze bees. In my early beekeeping experiences, I would volunteer to manage hives for farmers who no longer had time to pursue their interests, on a share basis. I still do this (one-third for them, two-thirds for me). This is of advantage where hives would otherwise be neglected, creating swarming problems, but where there was a sentimental value attached to owning hives and the farmer could not bear to let the hives disappear from his proprietorship. Some hives have been abandoned and re-occupied,in some cases with the comb completely eaten from the frames by wax-moth and then replaced by the next swarm in a different orientation. Others did not have frames, resulting in masses of unsupported comb continually used for brood which could not be moved. This reinforces the value of continual management of hives as otherwise problem solving becomes a very sticky and painful exercise. On one such occasion my veil slipped from the supporting hat in the middle of a paddock, while the bees were agitated. At least 20 bees were inside the veil and another 50 circling in a landing pattern aimed for the gap. As each bee reached the interior, it would line up and aim unerringly for my nose. The veil could not be readjusted because of the circling hordes and after moving from one location of the paddock to another (trying to hide from the hive line of sight behind trees), I gave it up as a bad job and left the hive celebrating a successful defence. Fortunately the lid was on the hive although I did forget to close the gate on the paddock so there was a quick phone call after I got home, so that the cow did not get out. I had at least 12 stings on my nose. Two hours later, WOW! My face was totally misshapen with enormous bulges. The next couple of days I kept from public view as much as possible, only taking time to reassure friends and neighbours that the cause of my grotesque appearance was an over-dose of bees. For some time after that I resorted to 2 veils when doing wild hive removals, a folding veil inside a wire veil, which did at least prevent a recurrence of having to hide from public sight. However the one-piece suits with hood attached have provided both of us with greater security (although not 100%) and confidence and at least when a gap does occur, only one bee at a time can get at me. Such experiences either cause you to improve your technique or to give up bee-keeping. FWIW I'm still here :) Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Decline in new beekeepers (was Oldies need newbees) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dr. Shimanuki addressed the alarming decline in beekeeping, which can be >chalked up to "lies, damn lies and statistics". Beekeeping must be one of the very few primary production activities where the recommended entry path is "start small". The best advice I had (reflected by advice from others on the list) is "Start with 2 hives for the first few years". 2 hives gives you options in the event of one hive failing, comparison between behaviour of bees (if they are both bad-tempered on the same day, it's not a hive problem) and practice in recognising what is actually happening. The amount of money invested is not great and if the fascination does not last, the hives can either be sold or passed on to another enthusiast. After a couple of years, I graduated from the "Simple beekeeping" books to the ABC and XYZ and was able to understand and learn from what I was reading. Expanding from 2 hives does mean acquiring your own extracting equipment (instead of hiring, borrowing, improvising) but the same equipment will last up to about 20 hives. By this time you are producing more honey than you eat. The next expansion in equipment can take you up to 40 hives after which you should be looking at mechanisation. If you can run 40 hives successfully, you can run up to 200 with a little help from the apiarists' supply company and you should have enough experience to judge the economic viability of the investment. Without the crippling capital investment required for other primary producers in purchase of land and heavy equipment, you are contributing to the nation's food resources in sustainable primary production. Two factors inhibit entry to the industry by small scale beekeepers. In Australia, the registration fee for 1 or more hives is in my view out of proportion to the cost involved in administration. In South Australia it is either $40 or $45 (don't have my records handy), payable every 3 years. The second problem I see in Australia is that beekeeping is regulated by local government (whereas the registration fee is paid to State government primary industry departments). Local government is scared of bees and terrified of the responsibility of granting permission. Each council area develops its own regulations and none of the regulations are "bee-friendly". Bees are classed as feral animals with no regard of their services as pollinators. Council regulations generally forbid bees in suburban areas or lay down rigid guide-lines (so far from roads, etc. that take no account of whether the bees are creating a nuisance). As the State Government Apiary inspectors are responsible for dealing with neglected hives or nuisance bees, surely the responsibility of deciding whether an apiary site is a public nuisance could be transferred to them. I see no possibility of politicians making courageous decisions to remove obstacles in the path of new beekeepers but believe there will always be a wealth of practical experience out there in the newbies that will translate into a constant recruitment into the ranks of commercial beekeepers, depending on circumstances and opportunities. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: wd6esz Subject: Re: is the ultraviolet spectrum visible to bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Mark Falls wrote: > Greetings, > > I remember reading somewhere that bees can "see" in the ultraviolet > spectrum. Is this true? Absolutely. Their lenses are not opaque to it like ours. Rich > > - - - - - > > in Dino veritas, > > mf > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:43:22 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: wd6esz Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <970911.090825.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII PLease ingore this message. Sorry for the interuption. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Janice Green)" Subject: Re: Reflections on my first year with the bees In a message dated 97-09-12 14:23:30 EDT, you write: << I went back at this past Spring and have right now a weak hive and a very strong hive. Requeened the weak hive and now see the first new brood cells. But I'm afraid I may be too late to get a new program off the ground in the weak hive. >> Here is a simple way to beef up a weak hive with the help of a strong hive: You have already taken care of the queen problem by requeening the weak hive. Now give her a helping hand by swaping positions between the two hives. When the field force returns the next day, these bees will go to the position their old hive was in when they return. That gives the powerful field force to the weaker hive and a great helping hand. The strong hive won't suffer too much as they have a lot of brood already and will be back up to snuff quickly. Janice Green ...Of Bees, Beekeepers and Food http://users.aol.com/queenbjan/primbees.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:13:25 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Robert A. Roach" Subject: Re: Wax Moth Traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have found that Torula Yeast works very well as a wax moth bait. The = state of California uses it in Mcphail traps (glass traps containing a = bait solution) to monitor for fruit flies like Medfly, Oriental Fruit = Fly, etc. It is a broad-spectrum lure. A couple of tablets in a pint = jar of water works very well. The only problem with this bait is that I = don't know where you could get it. If your local agricultural = commissioner is using these traps, they may give you a small amount to = try. They are used in Southern California and coastal counties up to = about the Bay Area. Bananas and vinegar are more available but I = thought the banana would get too funky too fast. The yeast solution = never does. =20 Bob Roach ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:55:34 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les H Vaughn Subject: Re: FW: "High" risk space mission with large plutonium load Do not send me any more messages of this kind. I do not sympathize with your way of thinking. If people like you had your way we would all still be swinging in the trees. Les Vaughn leslist@juno.com On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:26:00 +0002 "Krell, Rainer (REUS)" writes: >Dear concerned all, > >The following is for your information and if you consider it >worthwhile it >is also for your participation, further distribution or at least your >own >awareness. Whether all the details are correct I cannot guarantee, >but the >fact alone of sending another spacecraft with a large load of >Plutonium into >space is enough reason for concern - not out of anti-technology >sentiment >(as is often argued by the pro-nuclear proliferation side), but out of >simple safety concerns, particularly when there are other (just as >high-tech) solutions available. > >Regards > >Rainer Krell > ---------- > >The mission is called Cassini and intends to explore the rings around >Saturn >a.o.. > >In Italian, a casino is a whore house and "fare casini" means making a >big >mess. Accidental? > >The speed of the space craft at its most critical point (leaving earth >or >reentering and burning up in its atmosphere) near earth is supposed to >be >711.666 Miles per minute. If you believe in numerical symbology this >means >"playing dice (gambling - casino) with the devil". Accidental? > >Accidental, accident or not, puns aside. > >No big deal if this would be just an ordinary space mission; but the >payload >is a Saturn explorer with 72 lbs of plutonium on board. The published >risk >analysis seems highly understated if considering case histories and >keeps >changing; and the worst case scenario is that enough Plutonium is >distributed in the earth atmosphere to cause lung cancer in every >human >being; no speculation on what it might do to the rest of nature. > >The deal can supposedly be avoided by a few years' delay for >redesigning >the spacecraft with solar panels. No risk versus high risk? > >Are we that much in a rush or willing to gamble with a saved billion >against >trillions of dollars of damages to risk global health (i.e. possibly >more >Plutonium released than during all nuclear testing combined) for just >a >little bit more of scientific knowledge? OR? > >For more information read the attachment >Cassini.doc< or check >http://www.lovearth.org/ > >What can we do? For suggestions see the attachment >todonext.doc< > >"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is >to >survive." Albert Einstein > >Your help and awareness will make a difference > >Rainer > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:55:34 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les H Vaughn Subject: Re: Unusual nectar/pollen sources In ref to the "wet tires" bit, I remember as a kid in the summer time our "outhouse" always seemed to have an abudance of honey bees buzzing arounf the, um, effluence? at the bottom of the hole. This really thrills me as I think that there might still be some folks in my area who still use privies. Why do honey bees visit places like this? Do they smell something in there that I don't, or are they just after the moisture? Les Vaughn leslist@juno.com On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:49:15 -0400 Paula Franke writes: >I've read with interest everyone's observations on what their bees are >working now. So I've been paying attention to who is working what here >at >Head of Happy Hollow Farm. > >Bumblebees and butterflies are working jewelweed and Joe Pye weed. > >Some sort of 1/4-inch long black bee with thin white stripes (which >display >frantic activity but are apparently very gentle) are doing something >furious around the bottom of the tobacco plants and chrysanthemums, >and >collecting loads of white pollen. > >The honeybees are hard to find, but I've seen them collecting pollen >from >broadleaf plantain (bumblebees are collecting pollen from the English >plantain), and are gathering syrup/nectar from wild cherry trees. By >that, >I mean they are on the sap that is oozing from the bark. They are also >working what clover is left. > >And, OK, be warned that this is probably offensive, but the honeybees >appear to have an unseemly attraction to certain fresh wet spots on >the >tires on all of our vehicles, shortly after the dogs visit the same >tires. > >This is also the time of year for witch hazel trees/shrubs to be in >bloom, >but I haven't found any of those yet so don't know if the bees are >there. > >Paula Franke in Tollesboro, KY >pfranke@kih.net >http://www.users.kih.net/~pfranke >"There are only two rules in life: > 1. Don't sweat the small stuff. > 2. It's all small stuff." > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:55:34 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les H Vaughn Subject: Re: old apistan Going through my back issues of Bee Culture and the ABJ, I today discovered several Apistan strips I had put into a plain envelope and slipped into one of the magazines. They are not wrapped in plastic, just closed up in the envelope,closed but not sealed, and stuck between pages. They have been there since early spring undisturbed. Are they still good? Les Vaughn leslist@juno.com Macedonia, Illinois USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:13:37 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "W. G. Miller" Subject: Re: FW: "High" risk space mission with large plutonium load Discussion of whether or not a plutonium power supply is approriate in a spacecraft is not suitable for a beekeeping mailing list. W. G. Miller (whose day job is a nuclear plant systems engineer) Gaithersburg MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:58:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Digest Cesar Flores Subject: Rustlers! OK I just had a full healthy colony stolen... Normally I try to keep hives on farm property where you have to at least drive through a gate and past the owner's home to get to the beeyard. So I have never had any theft problems until now. What are other steps that I can use to discourage bee rustlers? Is branding of equipment a deterent? One colony is not so bad, but how big is this problem nationwide anyway? Cesar Flores Colorado ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:19:19 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: aweinert Subject: Formulae for bee feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am interested to hear more of the best feeds for bee's for either over wintering of buildup before the season starts. Andy's notes on the use of Yeast only are very interesting but when Itried it the bees appeared to say "YUK" I made a paste wirh yeast and honey. Any suggestions? Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:25:45 -0500 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Japan pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit two nice beekeepnig pictures from JAPAN on http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/JapanPict.html -- Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | EMAIL:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:37:42 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: September Newsletter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Basingstoke Beekeeper September issue is on the web-site below. Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan, retd :-(; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:47:10 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 8 Sep 1997 to 10 Sep 1997 In-Reply-To: <873950471.05131.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <873950471.05131.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Automatic digest processor writes >Thanks in advance to you on the Bee-L who are more experienced and endure >the questions of us "newbees" with patience... We all have to learn -- Tom Speight ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:25:54 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: how to store wax foundation? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:47 AM 9/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >What is the best way to store *unused* foundation until next season? I >have a lot of cut comb foundation You got a real problem with this kind of foundation as no matter how careful you are it may oxidize over time and become unattractive as cut comb foundation. But more times then not the bees will clean/shine it up and no one will be the wiser. >I have seen moth larva chew through plastic food bags to get at food in my >closets. I don't trust that wrapping the foundation plastic will stop the >little critters. Suggestions? Commercially your foundation supplier makes only what he can sell in any one year and storage is not a problem. I would suggest for small amounts of bee foundation a 2nd freezer or an electric ice box in working condition would be a low cost solution. ttul, Andy- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:27:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Decline in new beekeepers (was Oldies need newbees) In a message dated 97-09-12 08:21:06 EDT, you write: << > However things aren't > as drastic as the "numbers" show and judging by the growth in this list > alone, I doubt there is much to worry about. As long as we don't beat them to death for asking questions! This is good news! >> Sure not everyone has a passion for beekeeping and learning but it still is good to steer the beginners into books and websites. Who knows they may learn something besides what is spoon fed to them one question at a time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "HELP" Subject: Re: Best Queen Raising Book??? I can recommend - just published in English, but well known in Spanish and French editions - Breeding Queens, by Gilles Fert, published by OPIDA. Regards Matthew J Allan Editor Bee Biz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:08:12 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "HELP" Subject: Re: Generic form of Fumadil-B? In a message dated 29/08/97 15:34:05, you write: << Does anyone know a U.S. source for the generic form of Fumadil-B? I believe the generic name is Bicyclohexylammonium Fumagillin. I am a hobbiest simply looking to save a few bucks, and am looking for relatively small quantities. However, my local beekeeper association might be interested in bulk amounts if that's the only option. >> There is only one manufacturer of fumidil in the world - the market is not large enough to support two manufacturing plants. All suppliers of fumidil in whatever form buy the raw product and mix it according to their own formulations. You will not be able to cut out any middle man and make significant savings for your association. The whole story is quite complex. At one stage i considered doing an article for the magazine I edit, Bee Biz, but a lot of detective work was involved, and I have more and better things to do with my time. Regards Matthew J Allan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:33:43 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: second hand equipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I bought some secondhand equipment when I was starting off earlier this year, and I was advised by an experienced beekeeper that it would be ok if I scraped it thoroughly and then played a blow lamp all over it to kill any disease. Is this a safe course of action? - (I hope so!) Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:49:42 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bernard Heymans Subject: Re: is the ultraviolet spectrum visible to bees? Comments: cc: bheymans@infbru.infbru.informix.com, mfalls@CRAWFORD.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Greetings, > >I remember reading somewhere that bees can "see" in the ultraviolet >spectrum. Is this true? Hi, YES, Yes, yes. and in fact flowers are very much more visible in the UV. The colors we see in flowers is nothing important for the flowers... but what they have in the UV is important. When a tree can't change quickly it's flowers color, but if you look at a flower in the UV, you will see that a few minutes after that a bee vesited it, its color will vanish. You will also see that on the flower there are some patterns to show where to search... So the bee can be very quick to visit flowers. If the flower is easy to visit, the chance the bees visit that specie is higher. Don't forget that tree are trying for millions of years to attract bees. They put nectar on the flowers to attract bees, but what they want is thatt the bee transport pollen. What is also amasing is the fact that bulb flowers produce nectar and very few pollen: at that time there shoud be no brood. Willow (Salix ~) comes just later... and produce a lot of pollen and nectar: brood is starting so a flower that produce mainly nectar will not attract bees. The design of willow flower is made in such a way that rain will not wash the nectar down : it's raining at that time of the year. Linden (Tilia ~) flowers at the time bees have to make their winter reserves. So it produce mostly nectar. Have a close look at flowers, you will see that bees are changing the way you will see tree,... Regards, Bernard. ********************************************************************* * Bernard Heymans bheymans@informix.com * * Informix Bruxelles -32-2 - 711 11 30 * * Support Contract Specialist * ********************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:24:28 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Christian Maier-Ramnfs Subject: Re: Protecting honey from crystallization In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Hello Somay, last week i had a honey customer from the middle east, he asked me the same. My advice to him was to keep it cool, so the crystallizing process keep slower. It=B4s best to put it in the fridge. greetings from denmark Christian > Does Any body knows how to protect the honey from being crystallized, > without losing its healing properties ? > > Regards, > > Somay > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Janice Green)" Subject: Re: Reflections on my first year with the bees (long!) Hi Brian, I enjoyed your post and would like to add it to my newbie section of my web page. Do you mind? Dave and I were in OK earlier this month on our way home from Tucson, AZ, where we were awarded the Forgotten Pollinators Prize for our web pages. We spent about three days with a relative of his just south of Oklahoma City. Janice Green ...Of Bees, Beekeepers and Food http://users.aol.com/queenbjan/primbees.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:43:45 -0400 Reply-To: congaree@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Kueny Organization: Congaree Wildflower Honey Subject: Packages north MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am planning to bring 100-150 3 lb packages w/queens from reputable breeder in either SC or GA to the NJ/NYC area in early April. The good part is they will leave the south the night before they arrive, and I will probably help shake the packages. The bad part is that I would like to deliver the bees to one beekeeping organization or large producer, as multiple stops delays the bees getting into the hives (but not as much as having them shipped does). I will need a deposit but not payment in advance, but would like assurance that I won't be stuck with the bees 500 miles from home. I am a hobbiest beekeeper with 10 hives who knows a supplier close to home and loves to visit NYC. I expect to make this an annual trip. If you are interested, please e-mail me. congaree@concentric.net. Chris Kueny Columbia, SC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: congaree@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Kueny Organization: Congaree Wildflower Honey Subject: Re: State Fair MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steven Albritton wrote: > Anyone feel like sharing knowledge today? I am considering entering > some > honey in the state Fair. Probally don't have a chance since what I > have to > enter has not been processed in any special way. > > Does anyone have any special methods for getting an entry ready? > Steven Albritton > LDS Communications, Sports America, Chauvin Honey Farms > Monroe, Louisiana In SC, judging is on color (for "light honey", lighter is better, don't know about "dark honey"), clarity, lack of bubbles and taste. Winners here nurse the jar of honey to make sure it has no specks floating, no bubbles (in itor on the surface), and is very clear. I lost last year, so I know the whole thing is fixed ;) . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:59:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Re: Sugar Prices Comments: To: beeworks@muskoka.net Usually the world market price for sugar is much---a lot less than home grown. The last time I bought foreign sugar in bulk (10 years ago) it was .20 on the 1.00. The sugar barons are a lot like the tobacco barons $$$$$$$$$$$$$ going to all the right places for their benifit. The negitive implications concerning both industrys are endless. We've all heard the bleeding hearts concerning loss or reduction of income if anyone touches their sacred cow. Upon questioning either one of them theirs nothing wrong with either product. Hum,I guess if you live a lie long enough you believe in it yourself. At any rate we all know the positive aspects of pure honey . If any of you in bee-l land have any doubts as to the negitive aspects of sugar see if you can get your hands on what is considered the objectivaly best book on the subject,"Sugar Blues". It can usually be picked up at any well stocked health food store. After reading it you'll even be better versed to promote our favorite sweetner! Take Care and GBY,John in Homestead,also at ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:26:09 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: genie Subject: Re: newbee - newbie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All! I just have to jump in on the newbie/newbee topic. We are new to beekeeping and yes there is a bee club in the area that meets once per year. And we do have a very generous president of the bee club. But he live a few miles from our place and it takes his time to come help us out. That is why we decided to join the Bee-L. To minimise the time we request help from that one individual. I follow the info on the Bee-L and pass it on to hubby. He doesn't like the computer. I have learned to copy, paste and print. So he gets all the info. except when there is flaming etc. I use the deleat button for any thing not related to beekeeping. I am new to internet mail and not used to sending and receiving attachments. Got the message LEARN. No doubt at some time I will but you all know the story of "Old dogs and new tricks." But we do appriciate the question and the answers. We have been lucky and seem to receive what we are looking for via the Bee-L. We have obtained books on the subject, but the info on the Bee-L seems to be first hand and not a re-write of sometime back. Just to let you all know we look forward to the new - old veiws. Thanks Genie genie@goldcity.net Quesnel,BC Canada ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:17:18 -0600 Reply-To: ribac@wi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Randy, Isa & Alina Chase" Subject: Re: Varroa Mites, Wasps, Hornets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mineral oil and bees wax concoction I posted on the Bee-L this summer seemed to control the varroa mites during the honey flow. I noticed a significant reduction in mites when I opened up the drone cells. There were still some mites but not like before I began the treatments. I went from five to eight varroa in most drone cells down to one or two every third or fourth drone cell. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:10:31 -0600 Reply-To: ribac@wi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Randy, Isa & Alina Chase" Subject: Heating Hives Over Winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the members of our beekeeping association used a heating pad on one of his hives during winter. He checked the hive during the annual "January Thaw" in Wisconsin. His bees were doing poorly so he ran an extension cord out to the hive and set the heating pad on the top bars along with some menthol (he suspected tracheal mites). After three weeks (now well into February) the hive was recovering so he discontinued his treatment. He claimed that the hive was one of his strongest that summer. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:37:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Victor E Sten Subject: Re: Rustlers! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" C.F wrote >OK I just had a full healthy colony stolen... > >Normally I try to keep hives on farm property where you have to at least >drive through a gate and past the owner's home to get to the beeyard. So I >have never had any theft problems until now. What are other steps that I can >use to discourage bee rustlers? Is branding of equipment a deterent? One >colony is not so bad, but how big is this problem nationwide anyway? > >Cesar Flores >Colorado What I do as a deterrant to thieves is to engrave my name in each end of the hive in 2 inch tall letters using a router and a homemade template. In my case I need only 5 letters V.Sten so I can engrave two ends = 1 box in 5-8 minutes. This is done in the shop, the template has the size of the end of the hive box for easy line up and is secured with 2 tack nails. I hold down the box during the routing with one foot. The router bit I use is a 3/16 round end bit which leaves very little tear out, the cut is about 1/8 deep. This will work to deter most thieves and if any are stolen a friendly bee inspector may find them for you. Viktor in Hawkesbury, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:08:50 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Lesson well learned H2S Gas Hi all Just got back to the list so this post is to stuff from a while back: Donald Aiken wrote in response to my post about having tried to kill a swarm that had been aggravated with H2S and it having gone very quite instead of dying. > In a really peculiar coincidence, on Tuesday I was taking the last >supers from a yard of bees that is about 100 yards (meters?) from a >gas well that was being serviced. This field is a sour gas field, >and there was a mild smell of H2S carried to us on the wind which >was blowing directly from the rig toward me. I remarked on how >peaceful my bees were when I got home but I did not make the >connection with the H2S. The concentration was extremely low, so the >effect must be quite powerful. extremely low, so the effect must be >quite powerful. I asked around a bit about H2S and aparently, the point at which it becomes toxic to a person is when you can no longer smell it. Apparently it binds to certain active sites in enzymes with metal ions in or something to that effect. When one uses smoke, there must be a certain amount of CO carbon monoxide that would have a similat effect, but to a lessor degree to that of H2S. What I would be interested to know is if anybody has noticed this peacefulness of the bees near other sources of either of these gases as well or any other gases such as hydrogen cyanide (gold mines in Canada and Australia?) and maybe near highways and so on. It often has intrigued me that a hive in the middle of my town is extremely passive even al;though it is directly above a busy road in an oak tree? Could this be a factor? The bees response to anger is blind because all their receptor sites for anger pheremones are blocked with some or other particle? Just a thought. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:54:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: More Nectar Sources in September Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, I'm a bit ehind in my reading on the list, so only this weekend found the discussion of jewelweed and goldenrod. I curious about sumac. I supered my first-year bees about the time the sourwood bloomed here in Piedmont NC, but when I checked them after the bloom was opened, I found no honey - just chewed foundation. Several weeks later (about three weeks ago) I opened the hive ready to medicate and found half a super of honey. The color was a light yellow. The only bloom I had noticed lately was from either shining sumac (Rhus copallina) or smooth sumac (Rhus glabra) (the latter, I think.) This was blooming in great profusion all around our locale. Goldenrod, meanwhile, was pretty scarce (perhaps owing to drought - it's much more common now, after some rain). The ABC and XYZ circa 1950-something from the local library mentions sumac as the source of very fine honey. Anyone have any experience with this source? Greg ____________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Mt. Gilead, NC ghankins@ac.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:48:54 -0700 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: second hand equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > > Hi All > > I bought some secondhand equipment when I was starting off earlier this > year, and I was advised by an experienced beekeeper that it would be ok if I > scraped it thoroughly and then played a blow lamp all over it to kill any > disease. > > Is this a safe course of action? - (I hope so!) If blow lamp is a blow torch- a flame producing torch, then OK, but you have to get into every nook and cranny to do the job right if you suspect AFB. I bought second hand equipment and ended up burning everything because it had American Foulbrood. Learned that you should suspect the worst if the frames have been "cleaned up" so no brood comb is present, because if it is, you can spot AFB, if you are experienced. If all the frames were scraped clean, I would get rid of them and start fresh, The cost is small compared to having to burn them later. Torch the inside of the boxes. You can do it with a torch or "chimney fire", which is exciting. I used the chimney fire method, but won't reccommend it on this list because it is dangerous if done incorrectly. Your experienced beekeeper should know how and can help. If the frames had brood comb and your friend inspected them, then scraping and a little torching should be fine. AFB is the real bad guy to look for. The rest you can live with. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:52:19 -0400 Reply-To: Chris Worth Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Worth Subject: Anybody in/near Louisville KY??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm contemplating becoming a "NewBee", and while I'm reasonably sure I can read books and watch videos to learn what to do, I'd just like to know somebody near by that can hopefully help me minimize startup misery(whatever that might turn out to be). Thanks, Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:24:56 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: Bees Eat only Liquids In-Reply-To: <199709150439.BAA28772@bud.peinet.pe.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:39 AM 9/15/97 -0300, Stan Sandler wrote: >If that is the case, (and forgetting for the moment about possible >exceptional bee-treats like little chunks of salted Andy candy) then I am >wondering why we have never come up with a liquid pollen or pollen >substitute/extender diet for spring feeding. The liquid bee diet, why not?,... all I can say for sure it has not been for many not trying. I did get as close as being able to shut off all brood rearing using a "liquid protein diet". Just the wrong end of the scale of things I wanted to see. I believe the why not's are tied up in the delivery systems I would want to use and what the bees will use and until this is better understood little advancement for "lpd's" will happen. As nice as it would be to feed bees a all in one liquid diet as close as you can get is using a patty and it must be placed in the right place. (A patty out side of the normal area for brood is as good as one outside the hive.) It is also necessary to have a simulated nectar flow, or feed can, on at the same time delivering about 1/2 pound of nectar daily at 70 degrees. Thin nectar made from HFC syrup is best. The idea is to rear brood not add weight to the hive so this syrup is thinned so it will not pile up as capped sugar and get in the way. After the bees are using 1-4 pounds of protein per week the sugar content can be increased as it will be used by the bees as fast as fed. In searching for a diet that could be fed bees in a can or in a liquid form I started with 100% bee collected pollen both fresh frozen and naturally fermented outside of the beehive. This pollen was mixed at different levels with sugar syrup and fed to average run healthy bee hives using standard one gallon (US) oblong cans inverted over a hole or holes in the flat wooden bee hive top. The size of the one to three holes in the can lid is very important and since I don't have a recollection of it in hand I can not say other then I personally die cut all of them myself and they allow the normal delivery of 1/2 lb sugar solids per day which is the same as a good spring flow. Somehow in all this I used some glass feed cans and made some interesting observations that sent me back to the hives themselves. In the hive I had already seen how the bees use the pollen and notice in the pollen cells being used there was a film on top of the pollen, what I noticed in the glass containers was a similar condition as the cells, the pollen stratified into different layers of materials and would you not know it they layer the bees were feeding on in the hive I could not hope to duplicate with any gravity feed containers then in use and with that I ended my tests of liquid all in one diets and concentrated on making patty's from yeasts and HFC syrup. Can it be done, YES, I think we know more today then we did then and it could be done, this "all in one diet for" feed lot bee feeding, but so far it has not. Several times others have said they could do it, or even that they had it, but so far I have not seen it, or when I did I could duplicate the efforts but got no positive effects. If I did not learn anything I did learn how to judge what others say about this subject because of several years of real time trials and (T)errors. IMHO, the OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:27:59 -0700 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: cost to new beekeepers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patricia Elkins wrote: > > Hi All, > I'd like to start beekeeping sometime in the near future. > Could some beginning beekeepers comment on what they > see as the average cost of a new operation? It seems to me > that beekeeping will turn out to be a very expensive hobby > if it costs $500+ just to start learning from your mistakes! It should run from 150-400, depending on how elaborate you get. But put it in perspective. If you bought a dog or cat, it would cost from nothing to 500 or even more. Plus the cost of feeding, vet costs, housebreaking, walking it, kennel costs etc.. make it a much more expensive undertaking. If expense was the main concern in keeping a dog or cat, no one would keep them. Most all hobbies cost money, some more than others. Plus, you can still recoup about half your equipment costs if you give it up. Listen to the enjoyment you hear from the beekeepers on this list and you will see that it is worth it. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:06:51 -0700 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Dark versus Light Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas Davis wrote: > My question arises as I have begun to harvest the Honey. Of the 4 honey > supers, the first 2 yielded the most delightful honey...... light amber > colored and very light / sweet taste.... it is great. > > The last 2 supers contained honey that was much different. The honey is > dark colored...is there > something that I am doing or not doing that has produced these 2 very > different products? It is the bees and the flowers they visit. Not much you can do but enjoy. I had four different kinds of honey from five hives in the same apiary. It all depends on what nectar sources your bees are visiting. Agree with the Aggies comment. Son graduated from there. Best Aggie joke- What do you call an Aggie two years after he graduates? Boss. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:31:47 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: Dark versus Light Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > My question arises as I have begun to harvest the Honey. Of the 4 honey > supers, the first 2 yielded the most delightful honey...... light amber > colored and very light / sweet taste.... it is great. > > The last 2 supers contained honey that was much different. The honey is > dark colored, thick and has a very strong ( not too pleasent ) flavor. > In fact, we have concluded that the bees will get to keep these 2 supers > for themselves. Quite normal, Douglas! The variation just comes from the natural variation of floral sources available to the bees at that time. Though I'm somewhat out of touch in time and distance from Texas beekeeping, I remember some pretty strong, dark sources such as horsemint. Either talk to another local beekeeper, or just do a lot of watching of bees on flowers next season and you'll be able to figure it... (Hook 'em, horns). (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:06:58 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mark Hoover Subject: Hive lifting equipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen beekeepers use cranes that are mounted to their truck to move hives. It seems to me that a simple truck mounted crane would be the perfect option for situations where a forklift is not optimal or is out of the budget. I am looking for a vendor who can provide such a crane. Please send me any information that would help me in my search or any feedback you might have about the use of a truck mounted hive lifter. Mark Hoover ps Please send replies to the list or to mdillon@ecst.csuchico.edu. The above address will soon be defunct. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:14:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Midnite Bee Subject: Life... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee Greetings!! The bees are flying..flying..goldenrod and blue aster. You can smell the honey from the back porch..ah..the greatest site in the world..maybe..just maybe..it is the 10th Wonder of the World..nah,it's the # 1. I have been reading and not contributing for many reasons..bickering..slandering..who's the best..what's the best..etc.etc..etc. The following is a 'story' about life.. Enjoy..it was sent to me from a very dear friend..just wanted to "SHARE" a NON-BEE RELATED TOPIC. USE YOUR DELETE BUTTON....:-) LIFE ISN'T ************************************************************************ Life isn't about keeping score. It's not about how many friends you have. Or how accepted you are. Not about if you have plans for this weekend or if you're alone. It isn't about who you're dating, who you used to date, how many people you've dated, or if you haven't been with anyone at all. It isn't about whom you've kissed. It's not about sex. It isn't about who your family is or how much money they have. Or what kind of car you drive. Or where you are sent to school. It's not about how beautiful or ugly you are. Or what clothes you wear, what shoes you have on, or what kind of music you listen to. It's not about if your hair is blonde, red, black, or brown. Or if your skin is too light or too dark. Not about what grades you get, how smart you are, how smart everybody else thinks you are, or how smart standardized tests say you are. It's not about what clubs you're in or how good you are at "your" sport. It's not about representing your whole being on a piece of paper and seeing who will "accept the written you". LIFE JUST ISN'T But, life is about who you love and who you hurt. It's about who you make happy or unhappy purposefully. It's about keeping or betraying trust. It's about friendship, used as a sanctity or a weapon. It's about what you say and mean, maybe hurtful, maybe heartening. About starting rumors and contributing to petty gossip. It's about what judgments you pass and why. And who your judgments are spread to. It's about who you've ignored with full control and intention. It's about jealousy, fear, ignorance and revenge. It's about carrying inner hate and love, letting it grow, and spreading it. But most of all, it's about using your life to touch or poison other people's hearts in such a way that could never occurred alone. Only you choose the way those hearts are affected, and those choices are what life's all about. Herb(Midnitebee) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:47:54 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re[2]: old apistan Comments: To: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU So Apistan has got into the press again! Les, can you remember the expiry date from the original pack? Chances are that if they were within the expiry date in spring when you used some of them, these remaining strips will be OK too. Best regards, Max Vita (Europe) Limited ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: old apistan Author: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU at INTERNET1 Date: 9/15/97 1:29 PM Going through my back issues of Bee Culture and the ABJ, I today discovered several Apistan strips I had put into a plain envelope and slipped into one of the magazines. They are not wrapped in plastic, just closed up in the envelope,closed but not sealed, and stuck between pages. They have been there since early spring undisturbed. Are they still good? Les Vaughn leslist@juno.com Macedonia, Illinois USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Shook Swarm-Comb Honey ? In-Reply-To: <970914172147_842316236@emout19.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 14 Sep 97 at 17:23, Stephan Seely wrote: > I'm planning on trying my hand at comb honey next year. From what > I've read shook swarm is the way to go. I have no hands on > experience, I only know what I've read. Any advice on this > procedure would be gratefully appreciated. > I have tried something different this year. Previously I tried comb honey in the traditional way and found it time consuming. This year, with less time available, we interspaced cut comb foundation between a drawn honey frame. Voila!! Every cut comb frame was drawn as straight as a dye, and filled right to the edges. Now using a cut comb cutter and containers we have a product that sells like 'Hot cakes' for $3 Cdn. Cutting 7 from a D.E frame results in $21Cdn per frame. At these prices, who wants to extract? ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:49:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Conrad Sigona Subject: Re: Removing propolis from bee suit In-Reply-To: <199709141050.LAA28427@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > Hi All > > What solvent should I use to remove propolis stains from my bee suit? > > Thanks for the help > > Sincerely > > Tom Barrett > 49 South Park > Foxrock > Dublin 18 > Ireland > > e mail: cssl@iol.ie > > > Conrad Sigona conrad@ntcnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:54:38 -0400 Reply-To: ajwelk@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Welk Subject: Re: Raw Honey Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Morris wrote: > > Hi Kim, > > I'd like to see the standards you are talking about on raw honey. A year ago > the USDA was looking into standards for organic honey, but I have not heard > anything lately from them. I think I will have to give them a call and see > what's up. > > Thanks, > David Morris > Laurel, Md I down loaded the "United States STandards for Grades of Extracted Honey". Sorru URL unknown. The document does not actually define many of the terms that some of us use to grade honey. Things like Raw, unmolested, unfilterd for this standard are left to the interpertation of the bottler. For those who wish to put the term "Organic" on your honey label there are some VERY extensive regualtions on the ORGANIC farming. Things like organiclly certified land, 2 miles from any major road, 2 miles from any area that any spraying is done. That includes the roadside aprays put out by many counties for roadside weed and vegtation control. The list is long. All this information is available on live but I did not save the URL's Al Welk, Atlanta, GA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:12:55 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Alyn W. Ashworth" Subject: Re: Newsflash! BEE-L LISTSERV Balks at high volume In-Reply-To: <15101021723690@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <15101021723690@systronix.net>, Excerpts from BEE-L writes >In the meantime, the editor (moi) would appreciate any constructive comments >on the service thus far on Best of Bee. Are we filtering out enough? Too >much? Seems just about right for me - more than half is interesting, which can't be bad considering the preponderance of U.S. postings - and as an amateur I have limited time to spend. Keep up the good work. -- Alyn W. Ashworth Lancashire & North-West Bee-Keepers' Association. UK. (but I don't speak on their bee-half) http://www.demon.co.uk/emphasys ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:45:04 -0400 Reply-To: ajwelk@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Welk Subject: Re: Removing propolis from bee suit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > > Hi All > > What solvent should I use to remove propolis stains from my bee suit? > > Thanks for the help > > Sincerely > > Tom Barrett > 49 South Park > Foxrock > Dublin 18 > Ireland > > e mail: cssl@iol.ie I've seen it posted before...... I think the answer is still - nothing! If you find something let us know. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:42:34 -0400 Reply-To: ajwelk@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Welk Subject: Re: cost to new beekeepers? Comments: To: trissa@gene.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patricia Elkins wrote: > > Hi All, > I'd like to start beekeeping sometime in the near future. > Could some beginning beekeepers comment on what they > see as the average cost of a new operation? It seems to me > that beekeeping will turn out to be a very expensive hobby > if it costs $500+ just to start learning from your mistakes! > > Please send replies to my email address as well as to the list > if you wish as I am only receiving BEST-OF-BEE and might > miss your answers. > > Thanks so much for your help! > Trissa Elkins > trissa@gene.com > SF Bay area $500 sound high to get started. You can get a starter set for $102 to $150 plus Bees, helmet for about another $20. I would put the cost at $250 for the high end as long as you don't mind cut comb or pressing out the honey. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:34:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Samuel E. Allen" Subject: Re: Newsflash! BEE-L LISTSERV Balks at high volume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello, Allen,Actually, I am very pleased at the content you are sending along. I appreciate the work that goes into it. thanks much! -Sam Allen > If I don't hear anything back, I'll assume you are happy :) > > Allen -- ******************************* Grapefruit Seed Extract! http://www.beecool.com/gse/ This stuff could save your life! ******************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:35:45 -0400 Reply-To: ajwelk@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Welk Subject: Re: Frame spacing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brett D Bannon wrote: > > Which of the following spacings would allow more honey in the super > > (A)--Frames spaced loosely (eight or nine frames per super). Bees > extend comb past frame edges allowing uncapping knives to open each > cell. > > (B)--Supers completely filled with frames (ten frames per super). > Uncapping is difficult for knives but uncapping forks may be used. > > Also, if after ten frame spacing is used and extracting is done with a > fork, will bees keep the cell depth the same if you switch to a nine > frame spacing? Since to capping fork doesn't slice off the end of the > cell (like a knife does) will the bees keep then at that depth, or will > they then build them on out? Just Wondering!---I'm sure the honey > industry hinges on this question.:-) > > Brett D. Bannon > Folsom, NM USA > bbannon@juno.com I don't know if I can find the article but it wrote about your discussion. If there is adequate flow they bees will build out make deeper comb and provide the proper bee space between the comb. The result will be more honey yield per super. The spacing between frame is rather crucial. Will post the referance if I can find it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:31:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Finding eggs (was disease) In a message dated 97-09-10 16:27:38 EDT, you write: << Finding eggs is an absolutely essential skill for new beekeepers to master. In my opinion it is the most basic mandatory inspection task >> It helps to have the sunlight falling over your shoulder and onto the frame. Tilt and tip and soon you'll see what look like tiny grains of rice in the bottom of the cells. Faith Andrews Bedford ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:31:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Newsflash! BEE-L LISTSERV Balks at high volume In a message dated 97-09-14 13:11:56 EDT, you write: << ..and there is nothing worth repeating on sc.agriculture.beekeeping lately -- at least that ths humble scribe has received here (USENET propagaton can be very poor). >> Thank you. We don't need to sift through junk and appreciate you doing it for us. Faith Andrews Bedford ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:30:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Decline in new beekeepers In a message dated 97-09-12 19:45:06 EDT, you write: << It's true beekeeping isn't as populous as it used to be, but then again neither is agriculture in general. However things aren't as drastic as the "numbers" show and judging by the growth in this list alone, I doubt there is much to worry about. >> Thank you for sharing that Aaron, sometimes we beekeepers get to feeling pretty low about who will pick up the mantle (veil?) once we've puffed our last smoker. It's good to hear that we need to look at the statistics with a jaundiced eye. Faith Andrews Bedford, Ivy Va and Tampa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:29:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: mineral oil I wanted to ask a question about positioning the "dribbles" of mineral oil that folks have been discussing. I think I recall that people have been putting a thin line of oil on the top bars of one of the two brood boxes. However, currently our hives have a super on the top. Can we put the oil on the top of that and not have to lift it off to get to the top brood chamber. Can we draw a line of oil on the bottom board at the entrance? Could we put the oil into a spray bottle and achieve the same ends. It seems that as long as it is somewhere where the bees walk back and forth over it then it would work but I am not sure. We've not tried this before but are very interested. We just put in Apistan strips since we could visually see that our bees had mites and want to protect against tracheal too. Thanks for the advice. Faith Andrews Bedford, Ivy VA and Tampa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:29:59 -0400 Reply-To: ajwelk@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Welk Subject: Re: Have received no mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR. wrote: > > I have not received any mail from B-List since 09/11/97. > > What is going on I've been geting it everyday. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 05:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Deer Subject: Re: Newsflash! BEE-L LISTSERV Balks at high volume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I enjoyed Dr.R's information but I do not see a single one of his here.... Thanks for asking... bill Deer ---Excerpts from BEE-L wrote: > > Wondering why there is nothing coming through on Best of Bee? No, you have > not been unsubscribed, and the system is not down. > > The LISTSERV that handles BEE-L has balked at the large volume of mail and > become sporadic in the last week ...and there is nothing worth repeating on > sc.agriculture.beekeeping lately -- at least that ths humble scribe has > received here (USENET propagaton can be very poor). > > We expect that the flow will resume soon. > > In the meantime, the editor (moi) would appreciate any constructive comments > on the service thus far on Best of Bee. Are we filtering out enough? Too > much? > > If I don't hear anything back, I'll assume you are happy :) > > Allen > _____________________________________________________________________ Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:32:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Removing propolis from bee suit If it is a cotton bee suit wash it in hot water and use bleach. Bill Hughes Brighton, Tennessee USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:24:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "MR WILLIAM L HUGHES JR." Subject: Rustlers! Branding must not be a deterent because I have had colonies stolen that had been branded. Also these were on a farm and the theives had to drive past the farmers house. They just wait till no ones is at home. Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm Brighton, Tennessee ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:18:12 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: newbee questions In-Reply-To: <199709100139.WAA17167@bud.peinet.pe.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <199709100139.WAA17167@bud.peinet.pe.ca>, Eunice Wonnacott writes >----------One tip I also received from one of them: Do NOT wear a >(ticking) watch....they seem to be readily agitated by this tiny sound.. > > Eunice Eunice, I think that you will find noise doesn't disturb the bees at all. It is the sweat that tends to gather around close-fitting items like (leather) straps that irritates them. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:37:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kim Flottum Subject: Raw Honey Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.25631.emout18.mail.aol.com.874323468" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25631.emout18.mail.aol.com.874323468 Content-ID: <0_25631_874323468@emout18.mail.aol.com.2146> Content-type: text/plain David, I think organic honey is a dead issue, because of the lack of control of foraging bees. I know the organic people have real problems with this, but it may still be on someone's burner. The requested article is attached. Thanks. Kim --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25631.emout18.mail.aol.com.874323468 Content-ID: <0_25631_874323468@emout18.mail.aol.com.2147> Content-type: text/plain; name="RAWHONEY.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For over twenty years I've been producing what I feel is 'raw' honey. I t= ry not to heat it during extraction, and when it crystallizes, the jars o= r buckets are re-liquefied at the minimum temperature possible. Over the = years, I've found that 105 to 110=B0F does a sufficient job. This keeps m= ost or maybe all the original enzymes intact, plus keeps the honey tastin= g as close as possible to the way it tastes as it comes out of the extrac= tor. Honey will flow just fine for all stages of extraction, settling, an= d bottling anywhere above 90=B0, so I always supposed that I could claim = that my honey was 'raw' and 'unheated,' and all my different labels have = claimed this fact. Since our Summers reach 100=B0F occasionally, and sinc= e, according to Dr. Eric Erickson of the Tucson Bee Lab, honey will reach= at least ambient air temperature, the bees had let the honey reach at le= ast 100=B0 occasionally. All the honey I've ever produced crystallizes in about six to eight weeks= , especially in the Fall and Winter. This was a headache to change out wi= th the local stores, but in all good conscience, I felt I had the respons= ibility to my customers to produce the best tasting honey possible, and h= eating it much higher than I did always changed the taste substantially, = driving off the aromatics and causing the honey to have a syrup-type tast= e instead of the delicate bouquet it had originally. On a trip to the grocery store, I found a jar of Auntie Jane's Raw Wildfl= ower Honey (name changed to protect me). After some investigating, I foun= d that the huge Midwest packing conglomerate that produced this was heati= ng it to only 140=B0F instead of the usual 160=B0, so they felt they coul= d call it 'raw,' I suppose. The honey's taste was generally terrible (in = my opinion), but consumers thought they were getting a product which had = not been heated. You can suffer third-degree burns at 140=B0! Raw, my eye= ! I claim that this company, if the above temperature facts are true, is = defrauding the unsuspecting consumer, who generally thinks he or she is g= etting a product similar to mine, where utmost care is used in all stages= of extracting and bottling to preserve the original taste. For a while, I was all excited about getting some legal wranglings going = based upon some kind of fraudulent claims (I'm no lawyer), so I called up= the Honey Board to see what was officially on the books concerning a 'ra= w' definition. Here, beekeepers, is the official definition, followed and clarified afte= rward by a definition of commercially raw honey: RAW HONEY: honey as it exists in the beehive or as obtained by extraction= , settling, or straining without adding heat. (Italics mine) COMMERCIALLY RAW HONEY: honey obtained by minimum processing. This produc= t is often labeled as raw honey. With a tag added later: The definition o= f "minimum processing" can be set by purchasing standards. Both these definitions as they exist and are applied to practical honey p= roduction are jokes. I will address each in turn and then make some propo= sals, followed by the big picture. I will also address why these definiti= ons might have come about, and who needs to be producing 'raw honey.' The first part of the raw honey definition is fine. We can produce honey,= which for all practical purposes, is the same as it exists in the beehiv= e, keeping in mind the ambient temperature in a particular area or the hi= ghest ambient temperature in the contiguous United States (more on this l= ater). The last three words make this definition ridiculous. Let's say yo= u come into your honey house, the temperature is in the mid-50s, and you = decide to turn the heat up. Well, you've just added heat, and by definiti= on, have just negated all your honey's definition as 'raw.' Or let's say = you've just exchanged a jar of your honey at one of your accounts. Unless= you sell it as is, this honey can no longer be classified as 'raw,' sinc= e to liquefy it (including putting it out in the sun), heat must be added= =2E I venture to speculate that no one in the United States produces 'raw= ' honey by this absurd definition. Now, as far as the "commercially raw honey" definition goes, I wonder wha= t politician wrote this one? Certainly one with some ties to the packers,= since this definition could be construed to mean whatever someone wants = it to mean. "Minimum processing" sounds good at first, but 'minimum' comp= ared to what 'maximum' or what defined standard? If a packer for years ha= s heated honey to 160=B0F, then 140=B0F might be twisted to mean 'minimum= processing.' Those of us who for years have traded out our honey and pat= iently explained to accounts and consumers that our honey and all 'raw' h= oney will crystallize in time are getting shortchanged. Unscrupulous hone= y people are taking advantage of this label to dupe consumers and sell th= em honey which in no way is 'raw.' The Honey Board* generally agrees that we need a better definition for 'r= aw honey,' and they would work with us to expand the market niche for thi= s product. That's great news if we can get a definition that means someth= ing. This definition must be passed by a general vote of the national bee= keeping organizations, of which many members have strong ties to packers = and others who might oppose a clearer definition. So here's my proposal, = and it is a simple one. We base the definition on temperature alone, such= as: "Raw honey is defined as honey kept below ____=B0F in all stages of = extraction, settling, straining, and bottling." All we, the beekeepers, h= ave to do is agree on a temperature, which should be easy, but in actuali= ty probably will not be so simple. I propose that we adopt the ambient ai= r temperature of the hottest area of the United States where bees are com= mercially kept, which is probably Arizona, and, again according to Dr. Er= ic Erickson, is around 115=B0F. Giving the packers who might still be interested in marketing raw honey a= n additional break, I suggest we adopt the temperature of 120=B0F as the = universal temperature maximum for 'raw' honey. Those who feel this is too= high can change their labels to read something like "This honey has been= kept at 100=B0F or lower in all stages to bring you honey as close to po= ssible as it exists in my beehives." Or something to that effect. But bef= ore you scream for a lower maximum temperature than 120=B0, put yourself = in Arizona. There your honey in the hives routinely reaches the 110 to 11= 5=B0 mark during the Summer. Consider also the fact that the combs start = sagging and the liquid honey starts running down on the bottomboard aroun= d 120=B0, so honey can't exist in the hive above this temperature for ver= y long. I couldn't find research on this exact temperature, and based it = on an article written many years ago. So what needs to be done? Badger the members of the resolutions committee= s of the ABF and the AHPA, and also their officers. Tell them you will wi= thdraw your membership unless a better definition is drawn up. Get state = associations to draw up resolutions to send to the national organizations= =2E The ultimate objective of this is to raise the price of raw honey abo= ve that of regular honey and let the consumers who are so concerned about= what they eat pay for all the extra time and trouble that it takes to pr= oduce genuine raw honey. At this point, we do not need any mechanism for = enforcement, just a definition, as enforcement is a whole other ball of b= eeswax. Already customers exist out in the real world who are concerned w= ith enzymes and eating products existing as close as possible to their na= tural state. Other customers are price-conscious only and want a product = that tastes good and is price-competitive. Let the division begin and let= 's start commanding the higher price that 'raw honey' deserves. =0D Michael Meyer is a commercial producer/packer from Springfield, MO. =0D *In discussions on this topic with Honey Board Staff, it was determined t= hat, indeed, no single definition for raw honey exists. For commercially = raw honey, the standards are set between buyer and seller, and a standard= minimum processing temperature does not exist. We agree that it is time = to define these standards, and support any action by beekeeping organizat= ions and others to do so. However, until such are in force, we do not bel= ieve that packers using the term on their labels are fradulent nor unscru= pulous. Opportunistic may be a better term. Ed. =0D --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25631.emout18.mail.aol.com.874323468-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:44:29 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Re: is the ultraviolet spectrum visible to bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The light spectrum as we know it starts with red and goes up to ultraviolet. That is what we see. Bees lose the red one one end and gain the ultraviolet on the other end. billy bee ---------- > From: (Thomas) (Cornick) > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: is the ultraviolet spectrum visible to bees? > Date: Thursday, September 11, 1997 5:16 PM > > In a message dated 97-09-11 15:56:51 EDT, you write: > > << > Greetings, > > I remember reading somewhere that bees can "see" in the ultraviolet > spectrum. Is this true? > > - - - - - > > in Dino veritas, > > mf > >> > Sure it is how they orient on the sun on a cloudy day by seeing the > polarization of the UV which passes through the clouds . Also may flowers > look quite different when visualized in the UV range and perhaps the bees key > on this as well ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:42:15 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Re: novice bee removal story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, Enjoyed your story, also brought back some memories of long ago. It always seems to me that once a beekeeper gains enough confidence, he/she is ready to tackle one of those bee removal jobs. And when I hear this, it is good that you do have the cofidence to try. And I think all beekeepers ought to try their hand at bee removals. Why should only a few of us suffer through these disasters and humiliations! billy bee ---------- > From: Larry Morris > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: novice bee removal story > Date: Thursday, September 11, 1997 10:17 AM > > I enjoyed reading Brian Myers' experiences as a novice beekeeper; > I'm in much the same situation, my first year with two hives (came > with the new farm I bought!) in North Georgia. Considering > yesterday's intimate experiences with the bees, I thought this > might be a good time for me to "de-lurk" as well. > > With only two struggling hives and an empty hive body, I was > interested in perhaps catching a swarm (other hives too weak to > split). But my pest control guy knew I was looking, and mentioned > that he'd had a call for honeybees in the wall of a house...so... > > (experienced beekeepers now begin to chuckle, recognizing the > setup for an embarrassing and painful experience...) > > Sure, I said, why not. I realized the *right* way to do it was > with a bait hive and screen cone, but I didn't want to risk one > of my only two hives as a bait hive, so I decided to do it the > hard way and go in after them. > > Got there and met the owners, nice folks with persistent bees. > They'd actually had someone clean the combs out before, but > they were back (possibly a new swarm?) Second story, no way to > get in from inside, bees inside the siding and sheathing board. > > Donning the trusty bee suit and veil, I climbed the rickety > ladder, got siding off, cut the sheathing out (note: electric > saber saws tend to upset bees ;-) and pulled it off. A *huge* > colony, filling all the space between the studs and overflowing. > > I had visions of carefully cutting each comb off, examining for > the queen, and gently rubberbanding them into frames. Hah. If > these weren't "killer bees" they were at least clearly *pissed*. > A healthy defensive instinct, I'd say. > > The bee veil wasn't sufficiently tight. It's possible that NO > bee veil is sufficiently tight to stop 200+ kamikaze bees. > The job rapidly became: frantically cut comb, drop it into a > garbage pail suspended nearby, CAREFULLY climb down the ladder > while receiving multiple stings, then RUN, deciding whether to > be more afraid of the few bees inside the veil/suit or the many > on the outside! > > I finally loaded as much brood/honeycomb as I could into a cooler > and grabbed my tools. I don't think I got the queen, though, the > beehive extended up above where I could get the siding off (into > the attic?) and I suspect she moved up there. I explained to the > couple I'd cut all the comb I could reach, but they may still need > an exterminator; I'd had all I could take, with about a dozen+ > stings. > > I deposited the bees + comb rather haphazardly into my waiting > brood box at home; the bees were in multiple small clusters, so > I suspect I did miss the queen; but I may try giving them a frame > of new brood from another hive and see what they can do; I probably > got a couple pounds of bees. > > So anyway, I suppose I'm well-initiated into the joys of beekeeping > now! Examining a nice, well-organized frame hive doesn't seem nearly > so intimidating at this point. Don't think I'll be volunteering for > any more bee extraction efforts soon, though... ;-) > > Still itching, > -Larry Morris > hearth@stc.net > lam@eng.tridom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Top Bar Beekeeping Website Additions.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have added a couple of items to the tbh website at http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm First is a page with photos that deals with "working tbh's". This will provide you with some more information about the way the combs and bees can be handled. The second thing is a biggie. I have made a self-extracting zip file of all 99 files/photos on the website, and it is available for downloading should you desire to load the files into your computer and run the website locally on your web browser. Of course, the links to other websites and the "mailto" links would not work since you would not be online. It may be that some of you are able to get email only and don't have access to the website. If that is the case, perhaps I can send you the zipfile as an email attachment if your server permits 780K files. Let me know if you wish to try this option. Since the file is a .exe file, you should check it for virus before running it. This is a matter of good internet sense....check everything. I assure you the file is clear of viruses on this end. Links to both of the additions are on the home page as well as on the "What's New" page. Hope your year is going well. Cordially yours, Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | 258 Ridge Pine Drive --------------------------------| | Canton, GA 30114, USA Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 north of Altanta, Georgia USA | | | | TBH Beekeeping Website: http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:25:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rex Bryant Subject: Re: Sugar Prices we are not quite sure what this has to do with BEE-LINE. It does take considerable amount of time to read this mail somedays, please stay off the line if it doesn't pertain to bees & their keeping. THANKS!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:29:21 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rex Bryant Subject: Re: cost to new beekeepers? Dear Beginning Bee Keeper, It is not what the cost is that matters the most. Although a budget is sometimes necessary, it is the experience that enlightens the heart of the bee keeper. Do what is necessary to meet the experience!!! Enjoy! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rex Bryant Subject: Re: FW: "High" risk space mission with large plutonium load not appropriate for the BEELINE! Please find another outlet and perhaps you will get the responses you are looking for. Beekeepers and those of us inquiring about bees "newbies" are not as interested in what you have to say. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:40:10 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Re: Finding eggs Someone writes: << Finding eggs is an absolutely essential skill for new beekeepers to master. In my opinion it is the most basic mandatory inspection task >> *********************** Once upon a time, I would have agreed with this statement. Now that I am well into middle age, I can no longer see eggs in combs unless I wear magnifying glasses. (Younger people will not understand this!) So I look for the larvae bathing in their food at the bottoms of cells of young brood instead of searching for eggs. Tim Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:45:41 -0700 Reply-To: morty@dynanet.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mortimer B. Lipton" Subject: Re: BestOfBee Digest for 14 Sep 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I for one much appreciate your efforts.=20 Could you share some of the criteria that you will be applying in your filter ........And how about as an advisory to Bee Line participants. =09 =20 Aso a header with a listing of acceptable criteria for inclusion e.g...Disease Control..AFB....Varroa etc =20 Hive Design......Bee Facts...Foraging.... Feeding.... Queen Breeding etc.... Bee Supply Sources....etc. Also........ =91A Go Elsewhere List=91 ..... FAQs for beginners to an appropriate URL....=20 =09 And for =91personalized comments, rage reactions, opinion and propaganda go to =91Usenet=92.... For extended literary efforts ... no matter how eloquent please find a publisher or get your own URL.... Thanks again for all your efforts!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:51:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rex Bryant Subject: Re: Protecting honey from crystallization dear beekeeper, in extracting honey in the past, I have seen that heating honey to about 100 degrees F will help diminish impurities as well as help with crystalization. Try it and see how this works for you! thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: State Fair of Oklahoma Honey Results. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Patrick Barnes--14 yrs. old -- VP of SW Oklahoma Beekeepers Assoc. 3rd place White Extracted Honey Sanner Barnes--10 yrs old-- Member SW Oklahoma Beekeepers Assoc. 1st place White Extracted Honey (only top ten displayed so I don't know how many entries) Strange year, no dark honey produced except in the top bar hives --Started hive in June and no surplus yet. Yes this is a father bragging. In the County Fair the rolls were reversed with Patrick 1st and Sanner 2nd (out of 4 entries). There is a discussion of State Fair Honey judging techniques. The above honey was extracted at the same time and came out of the setteling tank one right after the other and the judges at two contests placed them different. I personally feel that as long as you exhibit a product that you are proud of, the placing is irrelevant. It's a kick to get first, but the kids were just as proud last year with a 4th and a 5th on the light honey and 3rd and 8th on the dark. As I tell the kids, do your best and don't be upset by a placing, bee proud that their is competition and learn from every experience. Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: atlintlcom@mindspring.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Clarence W. Walker" Organization: Atlanta Int'l Communications, Inc. Subject: Re: BestOfBee Digest for 14 Sep 1997 Comments: To: morty@dynanet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank goodness I am not alone in being overwhelmed by a torrential flood of messages on this list which certainly forces me to reconsider its value? I would love to have a place to pick up some real meaningful discussion on beekeeping, but certainly cannot spend hours sorting through message after message of questionable value while trying to get to those that truly offer some meat! Is there another forum for professional beekeeping that rises above a gossip column format? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:29:16 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Addition to list of wooden frame costs Hi All Stefan Stepansky mentioned a list of suppliers and costs. If anyone is interested there is a supplier of frames in Zimbabwe who gives a 10% discount on export orders. His price per set of frames is Zim$32.00, and the exchange rate to Zim$ from US$ dollars is very favourable to the the US buyer so it would work out at something like U$3.00 per set of ten, and if you take 10% of that it helps. Freight costs by boat are not too bad to the us so it would work out probably at about US$0.40 a frame in the end. These are with metal eyes inserted and one edge of the side bars of the frame bevelled. If anybody wants a copy of the list I can bring it and post more of the prices as well as the address. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:47:04 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: bees eat only "liquids"? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Perhaps it depends on one's definition of "liquid", but bees certainly eat "solid" pollen, not just the liquid layer on top of pollen-filled cells. A worker bee's rectum is often full of the "solid" remnants (outer shell) of pollen grains. That outer shell, by the way, is made of a remarkably durable substance. People (sometimes even public employees) can extract pollen grains from a core taken from the sediments of lakes, and infer many things about the environment thousands of years in the past. The extraction process uses extremely corrosive chemicals like hot nitric acid, hydrochloric acid, etc to dissolve everything else (including quartz sand!) and leave the pollen grains in a condition so close to "new" that they can be readily identified by the texture of their surface and pattern of pores through the coat, as well as their size and shape. Regards Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (250) 784-2231 fax (250) 784-2299 INTERNET kclark@galaxy.gov.bc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:28:10 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: Re: Rustlers! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:37 AM 9/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >C.F wrote > >>OK I just had a full healthy colony stolen... >> >>Normally I try to keep hives on farm property where you have to at least >>drive through a gate and past the owner's home to get to the beeyard. So I >>have never had any theft problems until now. What are other steps that I can >>use to discourage bee rustlers? Is branding of equipment a deterent? One >>colony is not so bad, but how big is this problem nationwide anyway? >> >>Cesar Flores >>Colorado Dear Cesar, Lets face, if someone wants your bees bad enough, they are probably going to take them. I was a commercial Queen producer for 8 years and I have come up with a few tricks to make the "would be thief" regret stealing my bees. #1. Do not staple your bottom boards to the hive bodies. #2. Drill a whole the size of a quarter in the middle of your bottom boards. #3. Nail down your bottom boards to you hive stand. I use poles for my stands that way it makes it impracticle to pick the entire stand up. I know it might seem like a lot of extra work, but people are like bees in that if they rob you once, at sometime they'll be back. I had your problem for a while, but when I did the above, I went to my yard a found a colony 100 ft. away from the stand. Apparently the would be thief, closed the front entrance at night, removed the nails in my bottom board, but neglected the check for any holes. Well, needless to say that after all that jostling around my bees where upset and came through the bottom whole and let him have it! Jeff Barnett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:42:59 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chip McCurdy Subject: Re: Addition to list of wooden frame costs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Garth, I'd like more info on this when you get a chance. You can e-mail me direct it you'd rather. Thanks, (\ /) {III08< Chip >80III} (/ \) SEE OUR EXHIBIT AT THE GEORGIA NATIONAL FAIR IN PERRY, GEORGIA OCT. 3rd thru 12th 1997 For More Information: ---------- > From: Garth > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Addition to list of wooden frame costs > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 13:29 > > Hi All > > Stefan Stepansky mentioned a list of suppliers and costs. If anyone > is interested there is a supplier of frames in Zimbabwe who gives a > 10% discount on export orders. His price per set of frames is > Zim$32.00, and the exchange rate to Zim$ from US$ dollars is very > favourable to the the US buyer so it would work out at something like > U$3.00 per set of ten, and if you take 10% of that it helps. Freight > costs by boat are not too bad to the us so it would work out probably > at about US$0.40 a frame in the end. These are with metal eyes > inserted and one edge of the side bars of the frame bevelled. > > If anybody wants a copy of the list I can bring it and post more of > the prices as well as the address. > > Keep well > > Garth > > --- > Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries > 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis > Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation > 6139 > Eastern Cape > South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 > > 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University > In general, generalisations are bad. > Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:54:05 -0800 Reply-To: beeman@Alaska.NET Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: newbee questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Walton wrote: > I think that you will find noise doesn't disturb the bees at all. It is > the sweat that tends to gather around close-fitting items like (leather) > straps that irritates them. I have heard this repeated so often about watch bands, in this case leather (but not always). I have worn a stretch band while working by bees for 16 years. They are attracted to it - I assumed by the fact that it was shiny, didn't think about the sweat- but never once have I had them react negatively to it. Of course, I do not wear any sort of protective gear so I may be more sensitive to what stirs them up. Nothing I have ever worn has irritated my bees. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:49:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chip McCurdy Subject: Re: Sugar Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JJJEEEEEEEESSSSSS..... ---------- > From: Rex Bryant > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Sugar Prices > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 10:25 > > we are not quite sure what this has to do with BEE-LINE. It does take > considerable amount of time to read this mail somedays, please stay off the > line if it doesn't pertain to bees & their keeping. THANKS!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:22:09 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Was this a goog idea or good luck Hi All I checked on one of my favourite beeyards yesterday and I found that something I tried had worked. We have a peculiar quirk around here that workers will lay eggs if a queen dies and these will be raised and develop into other workers as opposed to drones as normal. So, when one of my hives developend laying workers it rapidly atrophied into a lethargic irritating five frame hive with a bad laying pattern. I tried to requeen it with some queens I raised but to no success. Finally, I had this idea. I caught a huge swarm, transferred all the dodgey brood and then put it in the place where the laying worker hive had been. I then moved the laying worker hive two steps to the left and let the bees go on foraging and returning to the new hive. Then (I forgot to mention I had caught the queen in the good swarm), I dumped all the bees from the laying worker hive into the main hive, and smoked them to bits, so they would not fight. The idea was now that probably only the laying workers would still smell strong enough to be killed by the strong swarm. I then put the queen in a cage back in the hive and now two weeks later they have released her (put a jelly baby in the hole as a releaser) and she has capped healthy brood in a nice pattern. No laying workers in sight. Is this a sensible way of dealing with hives that go laying worker? I am making the assumption that a laying worker that lays drone eggs will be treat in the same fashion. Has anybody else tried it and how successful has it been if so? I fear that there will be less swarms coming up, and I still have two other LW hives, but do not want to risk damaging two swarms if this one success was a fluke? Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:30:32 -0400 Reply-To: atlintlcom@mindspring.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Clarence W. Walker" Organization: Atlanta Int'l Communications, Inc. Subject: NEED BEES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every source that I have checked has quit shipping bees! Is there any known source where I might obtain a 3 to 5 pound starter hive and queen. I realize I will need to feed them over winter, but I would like to have them established and well situated in my orchard in Lake Lure, NC before the spring bloom...despite the extra work and care. Any recommendation as to a source of mite free, disease free bees and queen would be appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:56:44 -0800 Reply-To: beeman@Alaska.NET Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Was this a goog idea or good luck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garth wrote: > Is this a sensible way of dealing with hives that go laying worker? > I am making the assumption that a laying worker that lays drone eggs > will be treat in the same fashion. Has anybody else tried it and how > successful has it been if so? I fear that there will be less swarms > coming up, and I still have two other LW hives, but do not want to > risk damaging two swarms if this one success was a fluke? It worked so it is evidently a workable method. In my opinion, from about as far away as one can get, it is overly conservative. I have requeened our normal laying worker hives, by simply using one as a queen bank and releasing one left-over queen after a few weeks. She began laying and all returned to normal. You will probably hear that the normal method of requeening a laying worker hive is to simply combine it, via the newspaper method, and forget it. You can also put a queen-right colony above a screen board (and their own entrance, and let them get aquainted that way. From my perspective (a very short season) caging the queen is a technique to be used only in specific hive management maneuvers. It stops egg laying, and that is only desirable if you want a break in the brood cycle. But, your method sure seems to be trustworthy to me. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:53:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "HELP" Subject: Refractometers At Apimondia in Belgium two weeks ago, I looked at some Neopta refractometers, made in the Czech Republic. Can anyone give me a contact so that I can get in touch with the manufacturer or the supplier? Thanks Matthew J Allan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:13:29 -0500 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: Dark versus Light Honey Comments: To: mister-t@clinic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > It is the bees and the flowers they visit. Not much you can do but > enjoy. I had four different kinds of honey from five hives in the same > apiary. It all depends on what nectar sources your bees are visiting. every beekeeper who is intresting in the source of the honey have to learn to make a pollen preparation. and it is not so difficult as it seens. Only on this, you learn what the bees already knows. I have tried to explain it on: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/pollenprep.html -- Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | EMAIL:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:02:21 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Alyn W. Ashworth" Subject: N.W. U.K. Web Site MIME-Version: 1.0 The Lancashire and North-West Bee-Keepers' Association (U.K.) now have a web site at :- http://www.demon.co.uk/emphasys/beehome At present it just lists events for the rest of the year, together with contact addresses, but we hope to expand it in the future. Any comments gladly received. -- Alyn W. Ashworth Lancashire & North-West Bee-Keepers' Association. UK. (but I don't speak on their bee-half) http://www.demon.co.uk/emphasys ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:07:26 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Bee-L - messages being postponed ? MIME-Version: 1.0 I posted a message to bee-l on saturday and received the following message back. Is this a new limitation on Bee-L ? ------- Forwarded message follows ------- The distribution of your message dated Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:18:12 +0100 with subject "Re: newbee questions" has been postponed because the daily message limit for the BEE-L list (50) has been exceeded. No action is required from you; your message will be reprocessed automatically once the list owner releases the list. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:47:02 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Boardman Feeders Are Problematic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I had a starter package I installed early April, just before temperature > dropped to low 20's. It stayed cold for a couple days. I had a boardman > feeder on the front but the bees clustered up & away from it & died. This is exactly why a boardman feeder is a bad idea for beeginners (along with robbing and sun exposure), yet the books, and many 'gurus' continue to recommend them. IMO, they are for experts only, and of limited usefulness. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:57:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Billson Organization: my honeybees are more organized than me! :-) Subject: Re: Sugar Prices In-Reply-To: <970916102354_-365020346@emout08.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Rex Bryant wrote: >we are not quite sure what this has to do with BEE-LINE. It does take Really? You don't? BTW, who is this 'we'? >considerable amount of time to read this mail somedays, please stay off the >line if it doesn't pertain to bees & their keeping. THANKS!! Off the line? BEE-L is *not* part of AOL!! Geez, get a clue please! THANKS!! -- Bob Billson, KC2WZ email: bob-bee@pobox.com first year beekeeper, 2 colonies kc2wz@intercall.net (\ MS-DOS, you can't live with it. You can live without it. /) {|||8- Linux: Resistance is futile ... -8|||} (/ \) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:44:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "W. G. Miller" Subject: Re: Protecting honey from crystallization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christian Maier-Ramnfs writes: >My advice to him was to keep it cool, so the crystallizing process keep slower. It=B4s best to put it in the fridge. To which I reply: While frozen honey won't crystallize, refrigerated honey (40-60 oF, 3-15 = oC) will quickly crystallize. In fact, when I make creamed honey, I put the = jars of seeded mixture into my refrigerator, and they set up nicely (generally= in about a week). W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:30:09 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Raw Honey Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The requested article is attached.... Thanks. Great one, Kim! To add to the discussion that I hope will come from this, I'm offering by email a sheet we use for our own promotion. I hope that any shortcomings will be pointed out and, anyone is welcome to use the data for their own sales information. To get the info, send an empty email message to allend@internode.net and observe the following carefully (any requests not following the instructions *to the letter* will go into the bit bucket): To get a nicely formatted ready to print Word 6 version say SEND RAW.DOC in the SUBJECT line (not the body) To get an unformatted text version say SEND RAW.TXT in the SUBJECT line (not the body) Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:19:54 +0300 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: marian pintilie Organization: pimapis Subject: Re: Raw Honey Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim Flottum wrote: > > *In discussions on this topic with Honey Board Staff, it was determined that, indeed, no single definition for raw honey exists. For commercially raw honey, the standards are set between buyer and seller, and a standard minimum processing temperature does not exist. Maybe the next information is useful: My brother sent to a lab three samples of honey for analysis,and one of values is so called HMF. They said that is a kind of ash. That value increase due heating , so heating can be detected precisely. here are the figures: sample 1 sample 2 sample 3 water 15.2 15.2 17.0 inverted sugar 73.5 72.5 71.5 saccharose 6.0 7.0 7.0 diastasic value 13.9 13.9 23.8 HMF 0.3 0.1 0.4 ( these was posted before on Bee-L because my brother wanted more informations, but got none) So here is HMF is between 0.1 and 0.4. 0.1 is for honey uncapped with a fork (unheated at all) One of other two was uncapped with a heated knife.Which one I don't know. so , heating the whole mass of honey will increase that HMF very visible At lab told the admisile value. but I forgot it,I suppose it was 1.2 or 2.1 Does anybody know more? we are interested in all what mean honey analysis, not only HMF, water, inverted sugar etc. tnx for your time. Costel **************************************************************** Costel Pintilie **************************************************************** = Secretary of a beekeeper * D O N' T W O R R Y = Go player * B E E H A P P Y = Computer addicted * C O U L D B E: = Citizen of a society of slaves * = Son of a bee * = @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * *** *** *** = @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * * * * * = Vegetarian * * * * * * * *** *** *** = Starving * ** ** * * ** * * = Still happy * ** ** * * * *** *** **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:28:11 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Essential Oil Trial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, For those who may have missed it earlier - The results of a trial of Apilife Var - an essential oil based Varroacide - may be found at- http://members.tripod.com/~DARGUK/home.htm All comments are welcome. Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:14:18 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Mineral Oil Use Files MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Colleagues: I believe judging from my personal mail and mail via Bee-L that not all the recipients have received copies for "mineral oil for bee mites treatment." Should there be anyone who is interested in having this files, please let me know and I'll forward them to your private e-mail address. I have mailed many in this fashion, however, just in case that I have missed someone inadvertently, please write again and let me know. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:00:07 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: bees eat only "liquids"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D8D8D9DFC5B12541201D677C" --------------D8D8D9DFC5B12541201D677C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A lot of recipients have spoken on what the bees eat but I have not seen anyone comment on why or how. I would like, for the sake of those who may be coming into beekeeping ("newbies," not my preferred terminology, the how part. Bees, we all know are remarkable individuals in many ways. They are quite capable of performing unlikely acts, one of which is the ability to "eat" solids when they have no teeth and weak mandibles. In any event, bees are capable of consuming solids as long as they have ample amounts of liquids to dissolve them. The mechanism is rather simple. All they do is to add a droplet of liquid to a solid which they may want to eat and simply suck it up afterwards. (Incidentally, there are insects with similar habits). I imagine that they are quite capable of ingesting parts of the solids which remain "dissolved" in the substances that they absorb. So, it would seem that they are able to ingest substances in suspension in their "liquid" diet. I am having a hard time keeping away from chemistry terminology so as not to confuse some of the readers. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA --------------D8D8D9DFC5B12541201D677C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
A lot of recipients have spoken on what the bees eat but I have not seen anyone comment on why or how.  I would like, for the sake of those who may be coming into beekeeping ("newbies," not my preferred terminology, the how part.
Bees, we all know are remarkable individuals in many ways.  They are quite capable of performing unlikely acts, one of which is the ability to "eat" solids when they have no teeth and weak mandibles.  In any event, bees are capable of consuming solids as long as they have ample amounts of liquids to dissolve them.  The mechanism is rather simple.  All they do is to add a droplet of liquid to a solid which they may want to eat and simply suck it up afterwards. (Incidentally, there are insects with similar habits). I imagine that they are quite capable of ingesting parts of the solids which remain "dissolved" in the substances that they absorb.  So, it would seem that they are able to ingest substances in suspension in their "liquid" diet.
I am having a hard time keeping away from chemistry terminology so as not to confuse some of the readers.
Best regards.
Dr. Rodriguez
Virginia Beach, VA
  --------------D8D8D9DFC5B12541201D677C-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:08:22 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Bees and cabon dioxide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read sometime back that when dealing with AHBs, if you breathed through a long plastic tube extended behind you , that the bees did not get upset. I saw this done on the TV program also. It looked like it had some merit and may very well work with AHBs, but blowing on my bees did little except make them grab a little tighter with their little legs. Live and learn billy bee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:57:56 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: second hand equipment In-Reply-To: <341DD776.30DC@clinic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > I bought some secondhand equipment when I was starting off earlier this > > year, and I was advised by an experienced beekeeper that it would be ok if I > > scraped it thoroughly and then played a blow lamp all over it to kill any > > disease. This is another topic that has been beaten to death. While the answers received here so far are typical of advice given by amateurs, and also what most of the the books recommend, they are not in line with what most commercial beekeepers in North America know to be true. Please consult the archives for lengthy and enlightened discussions, including the opinion that you need not even worry about a bit of active AFB -- if you do the correct things -- and of course the converse viewpoint(s). Also learn why you can start with brand new equipment and still are likely to get AFB. Search with 'AFB' and 'American Foulbrood' as keys. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:53:15 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darkwng@AOL.COM Subject: SEND RAW.DOC X ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:26:05 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robin Kaplan Subject: Source for beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a reasonably priced West Coast source for clean beeswax for a candle-making friend of mine (with no Internet access). As I don't subscribe to this list, please email me at rkaplan@calwest.net Thank you. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:24:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Basehore Subject: Re: Rustlers! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:58 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >OK I just had a full healthy colony stolen... > >Normally I try to keep hives on farm property where you have to at least >drive through a gate and past the owner's home to get to the beeyard. So I >have never had any theft problems until now. What are other steps that I can >use to discourage bee rustlers? Is branding of equipment a deterent? One >colony is not so bad, but how big is this problem nationwide anyway? > >Cesar Flores >Colorado > One way to keep the them from being stolen is put a sign on them " WARNING KILLER BEES " it keeps the honest people away. Hee Hee :) Branding workes good to. Sometimes nothing will keep a person determined to steal will work. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Basehore Subject: Re: Reflections on my first year with the bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:50 AM 9/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-12 14:23:30 EDT, you write: > ><< I went back at this past Spring and have right now a weak hive and a > very strong hive. Requeened the weak hive and now see the first new > brood cells. But I'm afraid I may be too late to get a new program off > the ground in the weak hive. > >> > >Here is a simple way to beef up a weak hive with the help of a strong hive: > You have already taken care of the queen problem by requeening the weak >hive. Now give her a helping hand by swaping positions between the two >hives. When the field force returns the next day, these bees will go to the >position their old hive was in when they return. That gives the powerful >field force to the weaker hive and a great helping hand. The strong hive >won't suffer too much as they have a lot of brood already and will be back up >to snuff quickly. > >Janice Green >...Of Bees, Beekeepers and Food >http://users.aol.com/queenbjan/primbees.htm > Instead of lifting up heavy hives it might be easier to just give the weak hive a frame or two of ripe brood, it is much easier. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:39:07 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bees Eat only Liquids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have had some exchange on the following topic: >> But you also wrote that "bees consume only liquids". Now I actually did not >> find that very contradictory, because brood is probably more liquidy than >> pollen. I can imagine the bees breaking up the outer cuticle of the larva >> and sucking up the juice much as a spider. (Do they haul out the larval >> shell afterwards? I can imagine that it might be less work than breaking >> it up into drinkable size pieces.) Andy is basically correct, as I understand matters. When teaching my entomology class through the past several decades, I stressed that a great many insect species secrete a salivary juice onto the food. It thereby becomes pre-digested before intake into the gut as a liquid. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "Discovery is to see what everyone else has seen, * * but to think what no one else has thought." * * --- Albert Szent-Gyorgyi * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:33:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Rustlers! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Last Spring we had a lot of hives in central Florida being burned.Just read an Associated Press release indicating two beekeepers kidnapped, beat, bound and gagged another beekeeper and left him in a grove to die last Friday in Bartow, Florida, USA. They suspected he new something about past hive burnings. Hmmmmmm whether he did burn their hives or not, certainly no one will be messing with their hives in the future... God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Voice:352-378-7510 Fax/voice:352-372-0078 150 hives, Beekeeping since 1995. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:18:48 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Andy Nachbaur (by way of Andy Nachbar )" Subject: Beekeepers Arrested Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" http://www.tampatrib.com/news/metr1006.htm <Tampa Tribune home page ---------- 9/16/97 -- 6:56 AM
Beekeepers' feud ends in beating, arrest By KEITH KOHN of The Tampa Tribune ----------
BARTOW - In a kidnapping case stemming from a dispute among beekeepers, one man has been charged with abducting and beating another, and a third man was being sought by deputies. David Gabriel Tschiza, a 34-year-old Polk County beekeeper, is accused of beating, kidnapping and leaving to die another beekeeper he thought was destroying his hives. ``It appears that this is a case where one beekeeper felt that another beekeeper was affecting his livelihood,'' said Polk sheriff's spokeswoman Sonya Dodds. Tschiza, who was being booked into the Polk County Jail Monday evening, is accused of beating James Fussell, 58, of 1867 King Road in Alturas and forcing him into a white Ford flatbed truck Friday afternoon, Dodds said. Sheriff's detectives charge that Tschiza, of 212 ABC Road in Lake Wales, and another man then drove Fussell to a grove east of Homeland in southern Polk, all the while beating Fussell. In the grove, Dodds said, Fussell's mouth, hands and legs were bound with duct tape. He was left there Friday night. The next morning, Fussell was able to move the tape from his mouth and call for help. Grove worker John Martin of Alturas heard Fussell's cries shortly before noon. Martin drove Fussell home, and from there he was taken to Columbia Bartow Memorial hospital, where he was treated for severe dehydration and admitted for overnight observations. Fussell told detectives Monday the two men kidnapped and beat him because they felt he was involved in or had information on past bee burnings and hive destructions, Dodds said.
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========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:12:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Boardman Feeders Are Problematic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allan and all I have found, in my limited beekeeping experience, that different feeding methods are useful, or useless, depending on the time of year. I hope I'm not stating the obvious, but I find boardmans excellent on nice warm sunny days, when they can get to it, not on cold days, like the previous post mentioned. That would be a time to use an inverted pail over the inner cover hole, where they can get to it easier. Previously I have found that the bees almost entirely ignore the inverted pail method on warmer days, but it may have been that the nectar source at that time was more attractive than the sugar/terramycin/fumidil-b mixture I was giving them. Right now I'm feeding some nucs as they finish building up their second brood box, and they empty a gallon pail in about 4 days even though they are in the middle of at least 15 acres of Goldenrod. *grin* Which reminds me..... of an "experiment" I'm conducting. It might be a big mistake too. I wanted to try to harvest some of this goldenrod honey, so I decided to not add a second brood box to one nuc after it completely filled the first. Instead I added a queen excluder and a drawn-out honey super. Already it is beginning to fill with honey. My plan is to get one or (fingers crossed) two supers from this colony, and then put on a brood box and feed till the cows come home. After all, though I'm not sure how much sugar it will take to draw out and fill this second box, I'm sure it isn't worth the $90.00 per super I get for honey...:) Any comments would be welcome... Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 11 colonies ---------- > From: Allen Dick > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Boardman Feeders Are Problematic > Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 5:47 AM > > > I had a starter package I installed early April, just before temperature > > dropped to low 20's. It stayed cold for a couple days. I had a boardman > > feeder on the front but the bees clustered up & away from it & died. > > This is exactly why a boardman feeder is a bad idea for beeginners (along > with robbing and sun exposure), yet the books, and many 'gurus' continue to > recommend them. IMO, they are for experts only, and of limited usefulness. > > Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:13:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Palm, Kevin R. (LLP)" Subject: Relative difficulty Comments: To: Ohio Bee-L Hello all, I have a dilemma. One of my hives swarmed over the weekend (!) and it appears that one of the small swarms has decided to take up residence in the building next door, a shed-like structure where my nephews-in-law live. They appear to be utilizing for an entrance a hole in the side of the building that was left open after insulation was blown in. About 30-40 bees have made their way into the living space itself, clustering on the inside of the two windows in the structure, as well as flying around the room itself. I'm at work so I can't go there directly until after I get off, but my father-in-law has sprayed with wasp killer the bees clustering against the outside of the building. I advised him to plug the hole with something, but he says they're a little too grumpy for him to be able to do that!! Does anyone have any advice that I could give him for actions he could take?? Or advice for me, for that matter, since this is the first year I've had swarms (and swarms, and swarms) to deal with?? I feel responsible for this, and I'd like to get this situation resolved as quickly as possible!! Thanks a lot, Kevin Palm Grafton, Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:17:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Hartman B. Canon" Subject: Health risk from raw honey? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I think this might of interest to all. It certainly was a surprise to me. In the 1997.09.13 issue of SCIENCE NEWS which I have just received, the first 'LETTER' follows verbatim: >>>QUOTE: HEALTH RISK FROM HONEY? In regard to the letter about heathful honey (SN: 7/12/97, p.19), cases of infant botulism caused by ingestion of 'Clostridium botulinum' present in raw honeywere reported in the MORBIDITY and MORTALITY WEEKLY REPORT several years ago. I have for years suspected that raw honey may also be responsible for cases of visceral larval migrans (canine and feline roundworm in tissues other than the skin) in children for whom no other mode of infection has been determined. Ted M. Reynolds Notasulga, ALA <<>>QUOTE: Microbial contamination can indeed be a problem (the fungus that produces aflatoxin is a known culprit). Garon Smith was referring to trace metal contamination when he said that eating honey was safe. -C. Wu << Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Prices as promised Comments: To: sblanchard@merx.cebra.com Hi All I have tried to convert these prices to US$ for convenience. Roof US$3.00 Roof plus tin top 5.60 Super chamber 2.86 10 super frames 3.00 Brood Chamber 6.40 10 Brood Frames 3.80 Floor Board 3.00 queen excluder (for those interested in getting them for african bees they are a differenct size, (a bit smaller) so only for those in the south US I geuss) 5.79 porter bee escapes 1.50 nine frame spacers 0.43 smokers 210mm fire box 21.00 bee brushes (I have one of these. They are made out of some or other beautiful tropical wood and are incredibly soft in the brush sense) 4.04 Bee gloves (I also have a set of these and they are made with that old time craftmanship that one only sees in places like Zim nowadays, where somebody can spend three hours making a glove type of thing) 8.25 Bee proof veils 17.00 Jacket to go with veil 12.38 This veil and jacket system work in an interesting way with a hardhat as the top of the veil and a very tight attachment system to get the jacket to fit. I know that the jacket was inspired after the designer, Zimbabwes Chief Apiculturist had an incident in which his veil slipped during treatment of some hives which had tasted a bit of crop dusting. He picked up in excess of 50 stings to the neck and vowed to develop a genuinely bee proof veil. The only downside of this veil is that it gets very hot inside the gauze as the heat from your chest floats up and anybody that uses glasses comes under strain as they fog up. hive tools 7.53 catch boxes (5 frame nucs actually) 10.90 strip eyelets (1100 to a kg) 11.42 a kg brood wax per 10 sheets 7.89 And here's a funny bit: Bees wax blocks (1 oz) 0.44 but casting and cleaning one ounce beeswax blocks costs 1.19 a kg? These wax products are however not really suitable for people raising european bees as the cell size is a bit wrong. The bees will draw it but you will have funny size bees. They offer an export discount of 10% as well. Out of interest I phoned the railways to find out how much it would cost to get the stuff the two thousand odd kilometers from Harare too any of our bigger ports here in SA and they will be getting back too me at some point. Still have to find out what the shipping costs are but this seems more complex that it used too be. I know we once sent a rail crate to canada and that was quite easy. Looking at the prices in US$ I really wished I earned in US$. Wow. I actually think these prices are quite expensive in some ways compared to making ones own equipment. I find that to make a hive, excluding labour costs and frames with wax costs me about US$2.60 (we have a small sawmill nearby and I make the aluminium cover out of aluminium printing sheets from the local printers which cost justabout nothing.) The wax pays foor itself, because to get one out of three swarms one has to remove a lot of comb with it and that comb melted down and milled does the new hives demand. So that's what it costs to set up a hive here for me excluding the labour costs and the cost of driving around to get the bees. In Rand it looks far more expensive. Keep well and I hope this is of interest. Would be interesting to see what the costs are for bits and pieces elsewhere as well. These are for standard langstroth hives. Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:32:28 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: NEED BEES In-Reply-To: <341EDE58.6F0B@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Sep 97 at 15:30, Clarence W. Walker wrote: > and queen. I realize I will need to feed them over winter, but I > would like to have them established and well situated in my orchard > in Lake Lure, NC before the spring bloom...despite the extra work > and care. Any recommendation as to a source of mite free, disease > free bees and queen would be appreciated. Starting bees at this time of year, regardless of how much you feed them, is not a good idea. It takes a package or a nuc a long time to organise in a new hive. Forget it for this and start early next year. As to a source of mite free bees, this is fast becoming the 'Holy Grail' of bee keeping, and the only possible source would be from Northern bee breeders. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:32:29 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Sugar Prices In-Reply-To: <970916102354_-365020346@emout08.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Sep 97 at 10:25, Rex Bryant wrote: > we are not quite sure what this has to do with BEE-LINE. It does > take considerable amount of time to read this mail somedays, please > stay off the line if it doesn't pertain to bees & their keeping. > THANKS!! > Perhaps you have forgotten, we need to feed our bees and sugar is the item of choice. I don't consider it off topic, in fact at the time the thread was right on the money. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:21:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John A Skinner Subject: Re: Buckeye trees? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970908091942.007e7130@calwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings, Andy, Les, Michael adn others on this thread. I've been off in the mountains for a few days and just discovered it. Last year, while digging up everything I could find for a new chapter about poisonous plants in the third edition of Honey Bee Pests, Predators and diseases, (due out this winter according to Kim Flottum), I found some information that may add to the discussion including Vansell (via Roy Barker, previous author) who worked on California buckeye poisoning. Please see below... On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Andy Nachbar wrote: > At 11:18 AM 9/8/97 -0700, Bill Truesdell wrote: > >Michael Reddell wrote: > >> > >> CALIFORNIA buckeye is the culprit. The big "horse chestnut" trees that > >> most people think of are different, and apparently not a problem. > > After California buckeye was implicated researchers in Europe wondered whether the related horse chesnut, native there, would also be a "culprit". Maurizio 1945 and Velthoen 1947, found that pollen from horse chestnut (Aesculus hippocastanum) and dwarf buckeye (A. parvia) was found in bee guts from bee colonies showing symptoms of poisoning. Feeding bees with blossom extracts caused niticeable symptoms and reduced life spans. Saponins, a toxin have been found in sap, nectar and pollen of horse chestnut. - This "may" be the toxin? I have found no other info about this and more study is needed before we can say other buckeyes or horse chestnut is "for sure" toxic to bees. > >> The only solution I know of is to move the bees during buckeye bloom. > > > >Excellent advice. Can only add that ABCand XYZ of Beekeeping also > >suggests feeding sugar syrup and bee collected pollen from other plants > >when the buckeyes are in bloom to dilute the buckeye nectar and pollen- > >if you cannot move the hive. > > Its the nectar of the California Buckeye that kills the bees. Vansell 1926 - described buckeye poisoning as "The effects on bees of buckeye honey, pollen, nectar and sap are sometimes very severe. Not only the field bees, but the adult queen, and drones are affected as well as the larvae and emerging young adults. In severe cases, the whole colony dies with the hive full of honey. The majority of the larvae being fed are killed outright and are, in the main, devoured by the adults..." When it is > really bad, (when the trees are bothered by aphids and/or other pests), you > can find dead bees on the ground under the trees, and on the blossoms > themselves. The Buckeye bees hatch out with deformed wings in extreme cases > after an initial kill of young bees that pile up in front of the hives. The > bees will eat the hair off of the effected bees making them look shinny. > The queens are also damaged and buckeye hives are hard to repair with added > bees or brood, or a new queen as long as the nectar is in the hive. > Preventing 100% of the pollen from entering the hive does not help and this > pollen when fed to other bees does not seem to affect them. > > Feeding sugar syrup at the time of bloom does work This was also recommended by Vansell and I feel it helps to dilute the effects of the toxin. It's the quantity of toxin - the dose - of any poison that is in my opinion the key. When bees have nothing else to forage on, due to adverse weather, especially drought reduction of other food plants, the bees have nothing else to forage on and ingest much more toxin. If only a few California buckeye trees are present and other food is available, then symptoms may not be noticeable. You may see nothing more than a few dead larvae, pupae, being ejected from the hive. mostly in the coastal > areas as the trees seem to effect the bees less there and in some years on > favored locations pure Buckeye Honey can be extracted. Its is white in > color and granulates in the comb if left until the Sage flow. In the Sierra > foothills the Buckeye seems to always be bad on the bees and moving away > from it is the best plan. I couldn't find any info about whether honey from buckeye is a problem for people. Vansell also recommended moving bees if they were in an area with much buckeye. He also said that queens became affected, becoming incapable of laying fertile eggs until moved to another area. At one time a old time bee breeder had a line of > bees that were not affected by Buckeye. I don't know if anyone continues > with them today, they were naturally dark gentle bees and very productive. > > California Buckeye trees are very hardy and hard to kill. Beekeepers and > cattlemen have carried out several eradication attacks on them without much > success in the past. The cattlemen were interested because of a condition > they call "Buckeye calves", the cows abort late term or the calves are > deformed because they are believed to have eaten from the fruit of the > Buckeye tree. > > The California Buckeye tree makes a nice yard tree and if irrigated will > keep its leaves longer then in the wild where they are dropped soon after > blooming unless it is a very wet year or they are growing with their roots > in water. > > ttul, the OLd Drone > Hope this info helps, grins, John John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:32:31 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Raw Honey Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My brother sent to a lab three samples of honey for analysis,and > one of values is so called HMF. They said that is a kind of ash. > That value increase due heating , so heating can be detected precisely. There is a graph on my homepage that shows the connection betweentime and temperature for HMF and enzyme activity. It can be found on http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ Go to "research" then "honey". -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:17:24 -0700 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Health risk from raw honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hartman, The jury is out on infant botulism. Honey has been implicated in cases of IB for childern under 1 year. But so have fresh fruits and vegetables. You should not feed an infant that young anything that has not been properly pasturized. I was told the reason is that an infant under 1 year has not yet developed the "flora" in their gut to handle most of the stuff we take in daily. The FDA has not put a caution or warning lable on honey and they know all about IB. It only affects a few children, not all. But to be on the safe side don't feed honey to a child under 1 year. As far as the ringworm comment, that is news to me. It looks like he is throwing out a hypothisis to see what happens. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Hartman B. Canon wrote: In the > 1997.09.13 issue of SCIENCE NEWS which I have just received, the first 'LETTER' > follows verbatim: > HEALTH RISK FROM HONEY? > In regard to the letter about heathful honey (SN: 7/12/97, p.19), cases of > infant botulism caused by ingestion of 'Clostridium botulinum' present in raw > honeywere reported in the MORBIDITY and MORTALITY WEEKLY REPORT several years > ago. I have for years suspected that raw honey may also be responsible for cases > of visceral larval migrans (canine and feline roundworm in tissues other than > the skin) in children for whom no other mode of infection has been determined. > Ted M. Reynolds > Notasulga, ALA > << > An editor's note followed the above: > >>>QUOTE: > Microbial contamination can indeed be a problem (the fungus that produces > aflatoxin is a known culprit). Garon Smith was referring to trace metal > contamination when he said that eating honey was safe. > -C. Wu > << > Well people, all my life I have been led to think that honey was just the BEST, Have we all been blind > to or ignoring possible dangers? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:14:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Edward Beary Subject: Re: Health risk from raw honey? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:17 AM 9/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >I think this might of interest to all. It certainly was a surprise to me. In the >1997.09.13 issue of SCIENCE NEWS which I have just received, the first 'LETTER' >>>>QUOTE: >HEALTH RISK FROM HONEY? > In regard to the letter about heathful honey (SN: 7/12/97, p.19), cases of >infant botulism caused by ingestion of 'Clostridium botulinum' present in raw >honeywere As far as I understand the botulism problem, this is a problem for infants under 1 year of age who have not obtained an adequate gut fauna to protect them from various bacteria. Once the fauna has been established, there is little problem from this organis. > I have for years suspected that raw honey may also be responsible for cases >of visceral larval migrans (canine and feline roundworm in tissues other than >the skin) in children for whom no other mode of infection has been determined. This is the first time I have heard this infection occuring and if true, should be looked at and may suggested to the CDC to look into this possibility. > >An editor's note followed the above: >>>>QUOTE: >Microbial contamination can indeed be a problem (the fungus that produces >aflatoxin is a known culprit). As for aflatoxins, Some fungi produce this material but I did not realize that all fungi produce it. As far as I know, there is only one group of fungi (Zygomicete) that is adapted to grow on undiluted honey and that one will not germinate from spores until the water concentration gets above 15%. You may want to check references on this to be sure the data has not changed over the years. > Garon Smith was referring to trace metal >contamination when he said that eating honey was safe. > As for heavy metal contamination, I doubt we are safe from this problem reguardless of what we eat as long as we continue to accept the atmospheric and water pollution that has been occuring in this country for decades. Think of what we might be getting from imported food from countries that have less stringent controls than we do. The last I heard, the FDA still does not have enough money or personnel to adequately test imports. US Companies are still producing and selling DDT to third world countries from which we get produce. Has anyone tested the cheap honey that was flooding the market from China a year or so ago? >Well people, all my life I have been led to think that honey was just the BEST, >PURIST, SAFEST, MOST HEALTHFUL thing you could eat. But when I picked up on bees >hanging around the outhouse in a couple messages on the list recently, The high concentration of sugar in honey along with the production of peroxides when it is diluted will take care of most infectious organisms, be it from out houses or what ever. The problem comes when the honey is heated to over a 100 F which destroys the enzymes that produce the peroxides and is far from the temperature that would destroy the harmful bacteria. (Actually 100 F is pretty close to ideal for bacteria that might grow in humans.) Either you eat the raw honey that has not been heated above 90 F or you put it in a sterilizer at 15 lb pressure for 20 minutes to make sure the bacteria and spores are killed. At that point you will probably be lucky to still have the sugars intact. In either case, you will still have the heavy metals which probably do not do the bees any good either. > AND THEN >I come across this yesterday, I don't know what to think. Have we all been blind >to or ignoring possible dangers? > > >Hartman B. Canon >Home: 124 South Cochran Road > Geneva, FL 32732 > (407)349-9229/9042 > HBCanon@HOMEMAIL.COM > Hartman.Canon@LMCO.COM > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:01:21 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: Health risk from raw honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There is a bibliography of honey and infant botulism articles on my site at: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/biblio9.htm with a short description of each article. While they are very scientific in nature, they might help to put the findings into context, historical and scientific... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@wave.co.nz (/ work nw1@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz Autoresponder info@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "FULVIO SANTAMARIA J." Subject: RV: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I cant leave the list( i trashed the message telling me how) > HELP! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:13:59 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? What's the difference? Raw Honey: Many people prefer completely unpasteurized, raw honey -- often for allergy or medicinal reasons. Raw honey is honey that has never been exposed to heat above the normal 95 degree Fahrenheit internal temperature of a beehive. Due to the confusing terms and rules employed in honey labelling, people very often do not get what they think they are buyin g. Pasteurized Honey: Why Pasteurize Honey anyhow? Commercial honey packing plants pasteurize honey to enhance its appearance for the mass market. It has everything to do with marketing and store shelf life, and little, if anything , to do with human healt h. Fine filtering using high heats and a diatomaceous earth filter removes specks of natural beeswax, small crystals, and pollen grains that are normally found in natural honey. Removing them allows the product to stay liquid and sparkling clear on store shelves for years. Without heating the honey, it is impossible to remove all these specks. In the process of heating honey to go through the filter, pasteurization occurs and any yeasts which might cause spoilage in high moisture honey are killed. Honey labelled "Pasteurized" is therefore permitted under law to have about one percent more mois ture (18.6%) than unpasteurized honey (17.8%), and is therefore usually thinner. Store brands of honey will usually be exactly at the 18.6% limit. Low moisture unprocessed honey will not spoil. (As a matter of interest, when honey spoils it first becomes alcohol and then vinegar, so spoilage is not hazardous). Our honey varies naturally from 16% to 17% and is therefore thicker than most store brands and will not spoil. We guarantee that. No time limit. Health Issues? There are, however, valid reasons not to pasteurize, since honey contains minority constituents that seem beneficial and are apparently sensitive to heat. Since bees and humans do not share any known diseases, there is no valid health reason to sterilize honey that has been safely handled and not exposed to obvious human or animal contamination. Honey is not a good medium for bacterial growth. Instead honey kills bacteria quickly and, in fact, is a good wound dressing. Unpasteurized or Not Pasteurized -- the Legal Perspective: In Canada, only special federally licensed pasteurizing plants may legally label their honey "Pasteurized'', but they can legally label the same honey "Unpasteurized" or "Not Pasteurized" if th ey think it will sell better. In fact, they are not required to mention pasteurization on the label at all. On the other hand, other packers, or beekeepers, may not legally feature the word "Pasteurized'' on a label even if they were to heat honey to very high temperatures. Many beekeepers use considerable heat on their "Raw", "Unpasteurized" honey since mu ch of the commercial equipment sold for honey extracting is designed to use heat well above 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Our natural honey is completely raw. So is our wildflower honey. Our buckwheat honey may not be entirely raw. Our honey -- just as it comes from the beehives -- is well below the 17.5% moisture threshold for spoilage. Moreover, for your assurance, we are federally inspected for food safety and offer a full moneyback guarantee. Allen & Ellen Dick, Beekeepers Rural Route One , Swalwell, Alberta T0M 1Y0 Telephone & Fax: 1-403-546-2588 8AM to 9PM Mountain Time Allen Dick VE6CFK Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 allend@internode.net http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:55:00 +1000 Reply-To: psrobert@gil.com.au Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul & Sandra Roberts Subject: Re: Frame spacing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Given that the bees will fill the frames to leave only a bee space between the frames we should technically get more honey from boxes with less gaps. There is a practical limit from a handling view point and I suspect the depth that the bees will draw the comb. However from a management perspective nine frames is generally adopted to provide frames which are easy to uncap with a hot knife. Most beekeepers here in Australia use nine frames in the honey supers. The number of frames in the brood box raises yet another set of arguments..... Regards, Paul Roberts Brisbane, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:22:10 -0700 Reply-To: vcoppola@epix.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Bees and cabon dioxide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Bartlett wrote: ell work with AHBs, but blowing on my bees did little except make > them grab a little tighter with their little legs. Hi Bill, Sounds like you are blowing on individuals. Try breathing into the inner cover hole before you use any smoke, especially interesting during a honey death or cold weather. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:57:19 -0700 Reply-To: vcoppola@epix.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Health risk from raw honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hartman B. Canon wrote: > HEALTH RISK FROM HONEY? > In regard to the letter about heathful honey (SN: 7/12/97, p.19), cases of > infant botulism caused by ingestion of 'Clostridium botulinum' present in raw > honeywere reported in the MORBIDITY and MORTALITY WEEKLY REPORT several years > ago. I have for years suspected that raw honey may also be responsible for cases > of visceral larval migrans (canine and feline roundworm in tissues other than > the skin) in children for whom no other mode of infection has been determined. > Ted M. Reynolds > Notasulga, ALA > << > An editor's note followed the above: > >>>QUOTE: > Microbial contamination can indeed be a problem (the fungus that produces > aflatoxin is a known culprit). Garon Smith was referring to trace metal > contamination when he said that eating honey was safe. > -C. Wu > << > Well people, all my life I have been led to think that honey was just the BEST, > PURIST, SAFEST, MOST HEALTHFUL thing you could eat. But when I picked up on bees > hanging around the outhouse in a couple messages on the list recently, AND THEN > I come across this yesterday, I don't know what to think. Have we all been blind > to or ignoring possible dangers? Practicly no honey is cooked enough to kill the botulism spores so this applies to practicly all honey. Its important to remember that the advice not to feed honey to very young babies also applies to any raw (uncooked) foods including fruits and vegetables and corn syrup. I think honey has had a lot of unfair press over this issue and that it should be stated as "uncooked produce" or "all raw foods". I read somewhere that in the study that started all this, only 20% of the affected babies had been fed honey and that 80% had been breast fed, but honey got the black eye. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:11:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Bob St. John" Subject: Re: Buckeye trees? We ran bees in California until 1989 when I came to Hawaii. WE had one case of buckeyempoiisoning and that was in the coast range, San Benito County, about 1940. We ran bees in the Sierras every year and found no effects from buckeye. We assumed it was because when the buckkeye was producing so was the Toyon and Manzanita. We also tried to find areas where there was not much buckeye. I draw no lesson from these facts. Bears and skunks were more of a problem in the hills. Aloha Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Frame spacing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brett D Bannon wrote: > > Which of the following spacings would allow more honey in the super > > (A)--Frames spaced loosely (eight or nine frames per super). Bees > extend comb past frame edges allowing uncapping knives to open each > cell. > > (B)--Supers completely filled with frames (ten frames per super). > Uncapping is difficult for knives but uncapping forks may be used. > Absolutely no question about it - "A" with 8 frames should be used for supers, except when drawing foundation (when 10 frames should be used). I can see no reason why potential honey space should be filled with frames, which could be redistributed in yet more super boxes for more efficient honey production. The bees will always, in a good flow, build out comb to within a bee space, whether you use 10, 9 or 8 frames. I use an uncapping machine, but the built-out combs are far easier to uncap either this way or manually than are 10-frame combs, which often are not even drawn out to the edge of the wood frame. It is sometimes objected that with 8 frames per super brace comb is often built. So what? When present, I just cut it off and throw it into the cappings tank where it drains out as easily as do cappings. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:13:02 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dennis Subject: Zipper Veil hole plug Comments: cc: hogbay@kin.on.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A local beekeeper (commercal) by the name of John showed me a trick a cou= ple of years ago that helpes keep those bees away from your nose when= using a bee suit with zipper veil. It is quite simple. A piece of pape= r (I use facial tissue) is jamed in the zipper just at the end where it = comes together, plugging the little hole there between the begining and = end of the zipper and jambing the zipper slightly so that it does not wor= k open as easy as it sometimes does otherwise. Dennis Morefield Sideline Beekeeper, 100 colonies(at times!), Oregon, USA denmar@mind.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:52:23 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC In-Reply-To: <23125331102627@internode.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:13 PM 9/17/97 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: >Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? >What's the difference? That's the question, what's the difference? In the good old USA many jurisdictions have differing views on so called "Natural" labeling of HONEY. For an example one label CAN NOT indicate by its wording that it contains something that the other does not. All honey is Natural and RAW honey (You don't wash it the packer did it for you.) and may not be allowed under federal and state law so these terms may or may not be in use. (Local beekeepers and regional local packer may be getting away with it but that does not change the fact that the label can not be used to show an advantage when there is none.)(It is always best to check out the latest local laws pertaining to Honey before adding your own label as these laws not only differ from area to area but they are changing all the time on all levels of regulation.) The most popular glass honey containers used in the US are not large enough to have everything on the label that could be put there and still show the honey in the jar, the day will come when honey is sold in a sub container that contains the legal notices and warnings, plus the instructions for use. The best equalizer and penalty is retail price, and if a packer has more then one label and different prices in any one market, say one is labeled with any of the adjectives one sees describing honey, the price may not differ or only slightly. The way this is enforced if by consumer complaint (sometimes setup by those who's real interest may be a little different then the consumer) and Honey gets its share of complaints. When a complaint is voiced to the right agency then the packer of that honey finds his honey under a microscope and the pressure is on. The retail buyers LOVE this as they get much discounted stuff to sell in this way and can resell to the packer the shelf space he thought he already owned because he paid for it one or more times. Look for this kind of stuff in the big so called chain drug stores in the US. The retailer sets the price for honey so it is he that is responsible to see that pricing confirms to laws and like so much in mass retailing the retail price more times then not does not reflect the true difference in wholesale price as the low end or house brands are many times marked up to a little less then the majors, but the percentages are higher, in hopes the price shopper will buy it as the cost is less and the retailer makes more per unit sold. Every area of the US has a different system of standards when it comes to processed foods, and little real government inspection, and some states do have some real neat ideas about speciality honey. Outside of the view of these agency's the only difference in Honey retailed in the US is the label, not that there are or have not been at least one honest honey packer in the US, maybe it was George Washington, but since then I think the last one may have passed on long before my time. Some do try but soon find out what the real time market demands are, and they are not what beekeepers think it should be, and since we no longer retail our own honey we really have nothing to complain about or any say in it anyway once we sell it to the honey packer. We can dig as deep into our pockets as we want to promote HONEY and as soon as our money runs out the packers and retailers will do what they do best, buy low and sell high playing beekeeper or food processors one against the other. When the price of honey was high, as high as a dollar US, some said it was honey promotion, others said it was keeping honey from China out, we learned later that honey from China came in the back door anyway, but now that the honey price is in decline all is quit and no one wants to take responsibility for it's down trend, how come? Must be we cut back on the promotion, or more honey from China or South America is coming in, or could it have something to do with no matter what the size of your crop if you only have 15 packers handling 50% of the total US market that the packers may be in the cats bird seat and driving this market over the hill. I can guarantee they would say it is those dirty cheep foreign honey exporters that they buy their honey from that are responsible, heck no body in South America should get so much for honey anyway as they don't know what to do with all that money, we all know they live like Kings on only three dollar US a day down there. Come back to America, Honey is a good food product and it is sad that any in the industry have to seek an advantage to sell theirs with flaky abstract ideas about one honey being better then another because it is labeled differently. Truly some of these abstract ideas can be measured, but I can tell all, shout it to the world, no matter what standards you think your honey is held to in your area that if it becomes short in supply that will not keep others from your market. Today's honey market is in the US, this has not always been so and tomorrow the market may be in Mexico, or So. Africa no one can be sure. Any beekeeper can turn the clock back by returning to the production of comb honey that wants a truly natural package for his honey. The only thing that is more natural about one honey over another is that any honey if mishandled it naturally will go bad. Liquid honey will crystallize, honey will ferment, and some will darken with age, or cumulative heat units, all of this is natural but few would call the consumers attention to these features. Not that things can not change, a few years ago the beekeepers who manage the SUE Bee honey Co-Op wanted to make more small change for the honey they produce and they do have a natural label, AUNT SUE, it started out a premium honey and producers earned as much with it as SUE BEE bottled honey but fell short on the color bonus of course. Over the years it has slipped and now earns three or more cents less then SUE BEE label of that water white Sue syrup as it is called by AUNT SUE honey producers. There is a difference in the type and processing of AUNT SUE honey compared to SUE honey. One is Western production and the other is Mid Western or Eastern. Western honey is by nature very low moisture, most packers blend high moisture honey with it or add pure water to bring it up to Eastern standards. Some South Eastern honey may need moisture removed before it can be packed in glass because of the danger of explosion if left natural. But any can blow up a 55 gallon drum if no handled right by the producer. AUNT SUE honey is not filtered using DE so it does contain small amounts of flower sperm cells (pollen) a substance that may be good for bees but is considered by others the largest part of the contaminants (dirt)on the earths outer layer, and one ingredient that hundreds of millions of dollars in health care money are spend each year to overcome the symptoms it causes. Why anyone would want this pollen in honey is beyond me as it does not occur in honey naturally other then as a contamination. Bees don't add it to honey, if you add much of it to their own honey and feed it back to them they will get sick and die. It's the beekeepers that add pollen to honey in the extracting process as they do many other things that must be removed before off farm sale is allowed or they would even serve it at their own table. (I won't list them, but many would gag a maggot and few would argue their promotion value.) Now lets talk real promotion, about the (U) on honey labels. Most don't know that there is a difference between honey that has a (U) on the label and honey that does not and that it really can actually be measured. In fact most reading this will have to check the next time they are in a super market to even find the (U) as it does not jump out at you from the label. It also can not be sold in any Arab country with the (U) on the label, no it is not honey guarantee free of Pig Weed, but honey that the tyes have been paid to the Jewish State Religion through a plan that Al Copone started, some say, to insure the honey has been processed under Kosher conditions. This honey can not be sold for any more then the same honey that does not have the (U) on the label so the difference is that it costs more and sells for the same, what a way to market a commodity and that is what will happen to any "natural" certification program for honey except the honey label will have a (N) on it for being a (N)natural food that all in the business know can be damaged by mishandling at all levels of handling and naturally go bad. (Sticky containers, part granulation, fermentation, adulteration and more.) PS. I am writing about conditions as I see them in the USA, not the most enlightened place in the world or am I the last word on any subject so if you are doing things different in your country more power to you, go for it, but don't try to market it here as any more then what it is, HONEY, or maybe you will have it back in your own lap unless you can sell it cheep, then send it without the return address as if there is nothing wrong with it when it leaves your shed who knows what could happen and the way to the circus. IMHO, the OLd Drone Los Banos, California ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:03:30 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vladimir Ptacek Subject: Re: Health risk from raw honey? Friends, Long time I specualte about the possibility of health risk caused by Ascosphaera apis spores which must be contained in honey taken from colonies suffering chalk brood. The danger may be even more serious when from such colonies pollen is collected and when among polen grains parts of mummies often occur. Pollen often is considered as a quality food supplement for people, too. Is there any knowledge in this field? Best regards, Vladimir Ptacek ---------------------------------------------------------------- Fac. Sci., Dept. Anim. Physiol. E.mail: ptacek@sci.muni.cz Masaryk University phone: ..420/5/41129 562 611 37 Brno, Czech Republic fax: ..420/5/41211 214 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:08:43 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: LISTSERV balks at traffic, and loosely, botulism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding LISTSERV postponing postings: > The distribution of your message... has been postponed because the > daily message limit for the BEE-L list (50) has been exceeded.... A configuration parameter in LISTSERV sets the number of daily posts allowed on any given list. In the beginning, when BEE-L was populated by researchers and scientists who discussed BEE BIOLOGY, the list owner, the late Dr. Edward Southwick decided that 50 posts a day should be enough to handle list traffic. Even though we have been butting up against this limit as of late, I see no reason to change this configuration parameter. It serves as an enforceable constraint to limit spurious posts (such as 50 lines of requoted material followed by "Right on" and a requote of that entire post followed by "Yeah Brother!" LISTSERV makes no value judgment regarding the content of the post. 50 is 50, no matter what. And once LISTSERV places a list on hold, it stays on hold until an administrator/list owner FREEs the list. Now, I have never met the other BEE-L owners and I don't know their personal habits regarding the care and feeding of BEE-L. I assume they have a laisez-faire attitude and based on that assumption I configured myself as a co-owner (I have the ability to do so based on my day job as the system administrator for the host computer for BEE-L). My personal computing habits are M-F, 7 AM to 3 PM and I purposely DO NOT have access from home to assure that I have a life outside of the office. I'm also taking tomorrow off to enjoy my bees and harvest some honey. So if the list is placed on hold some time between 3 PM this afternoon and 7 AM Monday morning I assume it will stay on hold until Monday morning. So PLEASE folks, consider what you post before you post it. Is it bees or is it merely conversation? Is it list worthy or can it be better addressed to an individual? If it's intended for BEST-OF, send it the BEST editor and don't clutter this list. What follows is an example of what I consider to be an INappropriate post. I know Vince will get a kick out of it. I know there are a good number of subscribers who will get a kick out of. I 'spect it will offend Eunice (sorry Eunice, please don't read any further!). What I SHOULD do is cherry pick from the list of subscribers those who will get a chuckle and send it to them individually, but that's too much work and ultimately I should spare the list and keep the thought to myself. It's not bees, it's not list worthy, it's merely conversation. But since I'm going to use one of today's allowed 50 posts for the above, and since I can disguise it as an explanation of how I feel the list should or should not be used, I'll post it anyway. Vince Coppola posts: > ... in the study that started all this, only 20% of the affected > babies had been fed honey and 80% had been breast fed, but honey > got the black eye. OH NO, TELL ME IT AIN'T SO!!! Please tell me that breasts don't cause botulism!!! Comments to sysam@cnsibm.albany.edu please. Spare BEE-L. Aaron Morris - thinking this pontification would have been more effective if I stopped at line 34. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:23:05 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Sugar Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:25 AM 16/09/97 -0400, you wrote: >we are not quite sure what this has to do with BEE-LINE. It does take >considerable amount of time to read this mail somedays, please stay off the >line if it doesn't pertain to bees & their keeping. THANKS!! > If you are referring to recent discussions of sugar and sugar prices -- it has everything to do with the keeping of bees. Eric Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:23:07 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Was this a goog idea or good luck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:22 PM 16/09/97 GMT+0200, you wrote: >Hi All > >I checked on one of my favourite beeyards yesterday and I found that >something I tried had worked. We have a peculiar quirk around here >that workers will lay eggs if a queen dies and these will be raised >and develop into other workers as opposed to drones as normal. So, >when one of my hives developend laying workers it rapidly atrophied >into a lethargic irritating five frame hive with a bad laying >pattern. I would like to hear more about these laying workers. Could it be that there is a poor queen running around laying eggs? Eric Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:18:32 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Wendy l Evensen Subject: Looking for NC beekeeper I hate to post this to the list, but I saved a post last week from a beekeeper from NC, and as well as I can remember the location was in the piedmont. Will that person please say hi again, I accidentally deleted your message.Thank you. Herbal Hugs, Wendy Evensen Sadie Scarecrow's Herbal Garden Kernersville, NC 27284 SadiesHerbs@juno.com and SadieHerb@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:18:53 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bernard Heymans Subject: Re: Was this a goog idea or good luck Comments: To: Eric Abell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eric, =20 yes it is possible... IF YOU HAVE : 1=B0 A QUEEN THAT IS OLD.=20 2=B0 ONE THAT USED ALL THE SPERMA THAT SHE COLLECTED DURING THE MATING= FLIGHT. 3=B0 A QUEEN THAT IS STILL A VIRGIN. It is easy to make the difference between a bad queen and laying workers:=20 The eggs position is not the same. Laying workers place their eggs any place in the cells, normaly you will=20 find many eggs per cell. A poor (bad) queen : the eggs will be placed correctly in the middle of=20 the botton of the cells. To my knowlege, there is no easy way to place again a queen on laying= workers... but you can try to replace a bad queen. I have alway destroyed populations that had laying workers...with the hope that some bee will flight to an other hive.=20 Bernard. At 08:23 18/09/97 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:22 PM 16/09/97 GMT+0200, you wrote: >>Hi All >> >>I checked on one of my favourite beeyards yesterday and I found that >>something I tried had worked. We have a peculiar quirk around here >>that workers will lay eggs if a queen dies and these will be raised >>and develop into other workers as opposed to drones as normal. So, >>when one of my hives developend laying workers it rapidly atrophied >>into a lethargic irritating five frame hive with a bad laying >>pattern. > >I would like to hear more about these laying workers. Could it be that >there is a poor queen running around laying eggs? > >Eric > >Eric Abell >Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 >Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 >eabell@compusmart.ab.ca > > ********************************************************************* * Bernard Heymans bheymans@informix.com *=20 * Informix Bruxelles tel -32-2 - 711 11 30 * * Support Contract Specialist fax -32-2 - 711.11.22 * ********************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:04:47 +0300 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: marian pintilie Organization: pimapis Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? > > What's the difference? Fresh carrot is not like boiled carrot. Raw honey is not like heated honey. I mean not only taste, there are a lot of other differences, I think that everybody know that. Costel **************************************************************** Costel Pintilie **************************************************************** = Secretary of a beekeeper * D O N' T W O R R Y = Go player * B E E H A P P Y = Computer addicted * C O U L D B E: = Citizen of a society of slaves * = Son of a bee * = @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * *** *** *** = @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * * * * * = Vegetarian * * * * * * * *** *** *** = Starving * ** ** * * ** * * = Still happy * ** ** * * * *** *** **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:41:16 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: SEND RAW... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917225223.007b4530@calwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT First an apology before I get to the matter at hand: I had never intended to send the RAW.TXT file to BEE-L. That's why I carefully set it up to be retrieved by request only. But sometimes (often?) I outsmart myself. This is the **second** time I have had the 'brilliant' idea of testing the retrieval process by sending a message from the separate email account that is used to post to Best of Bee. What I forgot (both times) is that the 'Reply-to' on that account is to BEE-L so that subscribers responding will automatically send to BEE-L . (We have seen some other problems with this since feature some private Best of Bee matters have come onto BEE-L lately -- sorry again). So, anyhow,l when I sent the request to allend, expecting to get back a sample, the sample instead went to BEE-L :( You'll notice I changed the subject line, since I don't want to trigger another round of posting the file to BEE-L. Of course the LISTSERVr will now (hopefully) reject it (Thank heavens), since it would be a repeat. Maybe the accidental post was a good thing after all, 'cause it got Andy going. I am not really sure what his point is, but in the process of addressing it -- or attempting to -- he managed to take a swipe at a few other good topics. And I hope we get some discussion on them. My comments, interspersed with Andy's go right to the bottom of this post. > >Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? > >What's the difference? > That's the question, what's the difference? > In the good old USA many jurisdictions have differing views on so called > "Natural" labeling of HONEY. For an example one label CAN NOT indicate by > its wording that it contains something that the other does not. All honey > is Natural and RAW honey (You don't wash it the packer did it for you.) > and may not be allowed under federal and state law so these terms may or > may not be in use. (Local beekeepers and regional local packer may be > getting away with it but that does not change the fact that the label can > not be used to show an advantage when there is none. My point is that when you process honey, it changes and there *is* a difference in constituents. P-O has a great graph on one of his pages that shows exactly what happpens to three bellwether indicators (to get a copy, see the end of this post), but there are many more constituents that we do not measure and often cannot know. *Anything* we do to honey degrades it. Andy is right that extracting adds pollen and air at the very least and often more. However, any attempt to remove these things requires heat, and after twenty-five years of practical experiment and study, I can state categorically that there is no way to get them out without affecting the other characteristics. This includes flash heating and filtering, although this method is probably better than all others. Unfortunately very little honey is done by this process, and many are done by batch heating. Batch heating is AFAIK the only method widely used to melt drums of honey and the amount of time it takes to melt a drum and get the honey clear enough to pump is the reason that -- even if flash methods are used from there on -- the honey is *always* damaged. What I am saying is that you get one crack at handling honey naturally, and that is when it is liquid after production. After it is granulated, most plants cannot process it without considerable heat and time damage. A major plant in which I am a shareholder darkens the honey to twice the original colour as it passes through. Since the honey is originally water white, this is not a marketing problem. Nonetheless, this darkening is an indication of damage from time and temperature. The honey that leaves that plant is not as good as the honey that I send them. And what I am saying also is that as beekeepers, we are trusted with the honey while it is in its best state -- in spite of the matter introduced in extracting -- and we are the only ones able to package the product with minimal handling, assuming it is of a granulating type such as clover, alfalfa, or canola. This is a real marketing advantage. Allen To get a copy of P-O's graph in GIF form, send email to allend@internode.net with the subject line GET HMF.GIF (Do not put this phrase inside the message) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:41:15 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Frame spacing In-Reply-To: <3420A369.64C2@umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Absolutely no question about it - "A" with 8 frames should be used for > supers, except when drawing foundation (when 10 frames should be used). We use pretty well exclusively 8 frames in supers, using metal spacers, and we draw Permadent in these same supers -- with 8 frame spacing -- with great success by just inserting one or two near the centre, but not adjacent. We used to have 9 frame thirds on the theory that the bees entered 9 frame spaced boxes a bit better through an excluder. However, over the years, these thirds have gotten mixed in with the other honey supers. I have never taken the time to try to determine for sure whether it takes a stronger flow to get the bees going in the wider 8 frame spacing immediately above them in empty supers being added when they are used to 10 frame spacing in the brood area. Has anyone done any work on this? > The bees will always, in a good flow, build out comb to within a bee > space, whether you use 10, 9 or 8 frames. True Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:39:35 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bernard Heymans Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC Comments: To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, You are right... BUT: In europe they now managed so that: - Chocolate doesn't need to contain cacao - Whisky, or vodka can be made of MAIS. - a chicken is a stuff that grow up in 5 weeks feed on fish powder. - a pig is also feeded on fish powder.. and taste the same as chicken. - Dog Food need to be germ free. - poeple sell car that have 150.000 KM as nearly new... - ... So I do sell my honing at 500 fr/ kg (~15 USD)... It ask me some time to explain what is honing, how we produce it... Some of my friends go to schools, other to commercials centres,... TO EXPLAIN, TO MAKE POEPLE TASTE VARIOUS HONINGS. INCLUDING BAD ONES. Why are making noise on that... just sell what you want to sell at the price you want for it... You know that Coka Cola makes a lot of noise to say is its price worth. Bernard. >Allen Dick wrote: >> >> Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? >> >> What's the difference? > >Fresh carrot is not like boiled carrot. >Raw honey is not like heated honey. >I mean not only taste, there are a lot of other differences, I think >that everybody know that. > >Costel > >**************************************************************** >Costel Pintilie >**************************************************************** >= Secretary of a beekeeper * D O N' T W O R R Y >= Go player * B E E H A P P Y >= Computer addicted * C O U L D B E: >= Citizen of a society of slaves * >= Son of a bee * >= @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * *** *** *** >= @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * * * * * >= Vegetarian * * * * * * * *** *** *** >= Starving * ** ** * * ** * * >= Still happy * ** ** * * * *** *** >**************************************************************** > > ********************************************************************* * Bernard Heymans bheymans@informix.com * * Informix Bruxelles tel -32-2 - 711 11 30 * * Support Contract Specialist fax -32-2 - 711.11.22 * ********************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:57:33 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: Re: Was this a goog idea or good luck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:23 AM 9/18/97 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:22 PM 16/09/97 GMT+0200, you wrote: >>Hi All >> >>I checked on one of my favourite beeyards yesterday and I found that >>something I tried had worked. We have a peculiar quirk around here >>that workers will lay eggs if a queen dies and these will be raised >>and develop into other workers as opposed to drones as normal. So, >>when one of my hives developend laying workers it rapidly atrophied >>into a lethargic irritating five frame hive with a bad laying >>pattern. > Dear friend, what you suggest goes entirely against all current day teaching about the caste of the honeybee. According to modern day text, it is impossible for an unfertilized egg to be other than a drone caste. I am sure there is a modern day explanation for your delima. Jeff Barnett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:11:32 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Zipper Veil hole plug In a message dated 97-09-18 10:38:39 EDT, you write: << A piece of paper (I use facial tissue) is jamed in the zipper just at the end where it comes together, plugging the little hole there between the begining and end of the zipper and jambing the zipper slightly so that it does not work open as easy as it sometimes does otherwise. >> good idea! I also had great success with sewing the fuzzy side of some Velcro tape to my veil and the hook side to my bee suit. When pressed together, nothing gets through. Faith Andrews Bedford ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:25:12 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: was: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC now HONEY PRICES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Andy Nachbar > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC > Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:52 AM > When the price of honey was high, as high as a dollar US, some said it was > honey promotion, others said it was keeping honey from China out, we > learned later that honey from China came in the back door anyway, but now > that the honey price is in decline... > IMHO, the OLd Drone > Los Banos, California As always, a very interesting article, Andy...:)....but I would like to take a poll of the list about honey prices. Are they on the decline? I am still easily able to get C$3.00 per pound here, which is somewhere around US$2.20. I sell most of my honey at retail, but even wholesale to health food stores I get close to the C$3.00/pound. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:39:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Edward Beary Subject: Re: Was this a goog idea or good luck MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:23 AM 9/18/97 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:22 PM 16/09/97 GMT+0200, you wrote: >I would like to hear more about these laying workers. Could it be that >there is a poor queen running around laying eggs? > >Eric > I was introduced to these bees while I was in Africa in the late 70's. I did not get a chance to study them much. They were found in the Cape area. The unique thing about them was that they produced diploid eggs that developed into worker bees. The main problem was that you could get several workers doing this at one time and some chaos would develop. There was some thought that the different sub families in the hive would remove eggs produced by other sub family laying workers so you would have a week hive. I did not get much further than that in my information search. There may be a lot more known about these cape bees now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:48:58 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: newbee questions In-Reply-To: <341ED5CD.797@alaska.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <341ED5CD.797@alaska.net>, Tom & Carol Elliott writes >Nothing I have ever worn has irritated my bees. > >-- >"Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) > >Tom Elliott >Chugiak, Alaska >U.S.A. >beeman@alaska.net Tom, As per your .sig hold onto those bees of yours, they are obviously a lot better tempered than mine. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Toddington, Bedfordshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:16:17 -0700 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: second hand equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > While the answers received here so far are typical of advice given by > amateurs, and also what most of the the books recommend, they are not in > line with what most commercial beekeepers in North America know to be > true. > > Please consult the archives for lengthy and enlightened discussions, > including the opinion that you need not even worry about a bit of active > AFB -- if you do the correct things -- and of course the converse > viewpoint(s). > > Also learn why you can start with brand new equipment and still are likely > to get AFB. It intrigues me to note that "amateurs" and "books" are so easily discounted and "Commercial truth" elevated as correct beekeeping. I believe that some commercial practices are based on expediency and not necessarily good beekeeping. It is interesting that the day I spent with the state inspector looking at just one commercial operation we found two hives of AFB, and that from random sampling. I realize I cannot take that day as typical, but it makes me a bit sceptical when I see commercial practices touted as better than the advice of the books. It should be recognized that beekeeping is still more art than science, as is obvious from the many practices suggested in the BeeL. I would hope that the voice of "amateurs", especially when the "books" agree with them, not be so quickly dismissed. I have noted that after I post a message there is quite a bit of off list traffic , some with excellent informtion which should have gone on the list, but the sender would not think of it because of the response they get. Lets keep this an open forum and a little more "poster friendly", especially for us amateurs. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:26:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Verville Subject: Commercial Uncapping equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could some one please explain to me how these pieces of equipment work. Could you answer me privately. Dave Verville ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:27:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rex Bryant Subject: Re: Sugar Prices please forgive my ignorance in the relation to sugar & bees. I have been corrected & hope everyone will move on now to bee related facts. thanks. I do keep bees and have tried to assist them by feeding them sugar concentrated water. However, I found that many bees drowned in the sugar water. Any suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:33:02 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: second hand equipment Comments: To: mister-t@clinic.net In-Reply-To: <3421C451.1519@clinic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:16 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Allen Dick wrote: >> While the answers received here so far are typical of advice given by >> amateurs, and also what most of the the books recommend, they are not in >> line with what most commercial beekeepers in North America know to be >> true. >hope that the voice of "amateurs", especially when the "books" agree >with them, not be so quickly dismissed. I have noted that after I post a >message there is quite a bit of off list traffic , some with excellent >informtion which should have gone on the list, but the sender would not >think of it because of the response they get. >Lets keep this an open forum and a little more "poster friendly", >especially for us amateurs. >Bill Truesdell >Bath, ME > Well, Bill, sorry that some would polarize any beekeeping group, but as a life long commercial beekeeper, one who has never had a real job I might say, I take exception to what some are reading into others post in this list as I personally have seen only constructive help from the few in this list that I can identify as "commercial". I for one enjoy the posts of all and do pay the highest respects to any other "commercial" beekeepers who takes the time to post to these groups as much of what we read is old hat to us but we stick in there and at times do add constructive information to the treads. Some of us are for sure more experienced posters and we do use that experience to our advantage when we feel the need, but anyone who reads this list or the beekeeping news group can gain that same experience and as far as I have read are welcome to jump in anytime they feel ready. Sure you will get stepped on by others that's the nature of this beast, but has nothing to do with being a "commercial" beekeeper. One problem that is common for all posters is the old idea that is as true today as when first advanced, "until you walk in my shoes....you can not feel my pain." This is more true for beekeeping and beekeepers then any other commodity group I can think of. A few miles can make all the difference in the world in how bees are managed and the success with them, and I really respect the person who thinks he can learn it all from a book, or many books, I have for years been encouraged to write books myself, for some a good way to supplement their income, I read them all myself, but know that even with my own 40+ years experience bent over a hive with that hot smoker between my legs I do not know it all and continue to learn from my own everyday experiences and those of others. For sure there is a big difference in keeping bees for the fun of it, or the observation of them, and having bees to keep oneself at a middle class existence. It is not easy being a commercial beekeeper and for sure there are some rules that differ from area to area, but in general if any beekeeper follows in the foot steps of his neighboring commercial beekeeper he will learn much that can be used to make his own experience more rewarding with any number of bees. I am always somewhat amused by questions on "how do I get to be a commercial beekeeper?". I have seen many try to do it the way that most would think normal, by buying in, but I can tell you from the sad experience of many that this is one way to guarantee a 99% failure rate and the loss of some big bucks. The best way is to be born into a beekeeping family, but this is not always possible, so the 2nd best way is to merry into a beekeeping family, but this also is limited, some have tried the old mathematical method of doubling each year, but never seem to reach their goals, so what's left? Well as far as I am concerned the only real way that assures those who follow this route with a fair chance at success is by doing some hard time as a beekeepers apprentice and the earlier one starts the higher the potential for success. This route is also limited but the one that most successful beekeepers have followed if not born or married into beekeeping and one that you will not see mentioned in the majority of todays bee books, sadly. OH, I did not mention the role of higher education in commercial beekeeping and it does play one, but oh so very small, and no one that I have every known about who has the education and not the beekeeping apprentice experience has gone out directly into commercial beekeeping, but then I don't know everyone and I am sure to every point I have made there are exceptions, and they are just that.. My point is that in this group there are those who dream of becoming more then a hobby beekeeper, and those who are dependent on commercial beekeepers for the volume of honey they produce, the crops they can pollinate, and so on, it should be clear to all that nothing should be done to discourage commercial beekeepers from this group as they are a rare breed indeed, and more should be done to encourage their participation so if any disagree with what some off the wall commercial beekeeper posts then ask for clarification. I know what Allen was saying so I did not ask and would not have written this much if I did see some attempt to read into his posts something that I am sure was not there... ttul, the OLd Drone My opinions are those of my employer, I Love my Boss! I am self employed. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:09:32 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Second Hand Equipment and Second Hand Ideas In-Reply-To: <3421C451.1519@clinic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > While the answers received here so far are typical of advice given by > > amateurs, and also what most of the the books recommend, they are not in > > line with what most commercial beekeepers in North America know to be > > true. > It intrigues me to note that "amateurs" and "books" are so easily > discounted and "Commercial truth" elevated as correct beekeeping. Well, I'm a bit ticked with the clique of amateurs who write books and confirm to one another the tales they pass off as wisdom, since I wasted years and *many* thousands of dollars believing their advice when I was younger and did not know any better. It *really* annoys me to have people parroting that patent BS as if it were the *only* truth --- and taking in another crop of suckers who will likely carry on the tradition without testing it. If I hear another wise scribe say that starting with all new equipment is the only way, I'm gonna scream. This line of pap was started years back by the manufacturers who also controlled the bee mags and books, and still hasn't died out since it is repeated like gospel by people who don't know any other way -- because they did not try. IMHO, it is a formula for staying a beginner. None of those writers of beginner books could make a living handling bees. This is the acid test of truth in my mind. Walter Kelley was a welcome exception. When I read 'How to Keep Bees and Sell Honey', I said "At last! -- a real book about real beekeeping" This is not to say that 'The Hive and the Honeybee' is not a great reference book, and that the more recent editions of the 'ABC & XYZ...' aren't pretty helpful. (The earlier editions of ABC... were disgraceful) > It is interesting that the day I spent with the state inspector looking > at just one commercial operation we found two hives of AFB, and that > from random sampling. I *was* a bee inspector for years and can assure you that there are good and bad operators in both groups. However, howcum no one ever asks the question: "How much AFB is acceptable?" A touch of AFB is not the end of the world, nor is it the indicator of a bad practice. It just happens (Even in NZ and Aus) and usually it will not cause you any more bother than a zit. It can even happen to you no matter how much expensive new equipment you buy and how carefully you avoid used. > ... I would hope that the voice of "amateurs", especially when the > "books" agree with them, not be so quickly dismissed. Well, why not just buy the books and read them? I have done so and and continue to do so. Many of my posts are inspired by what I read or have read and the fact that it is incomplete or questionable to me. I assume that everyone has read -- or should have -- the books, and that what we are doing here is something a bit more advanced. If this group (BEE-L) were just about the answers that are in the books, I wouldn't be here, since a book is fast, cheap, and easy to read and I don't have to plug it in. It simply does not make sense to clutter a list like this with regurgitated material. I would hope to hear personal experience and advice from those who have tried doing things more than one way, and of course discussion on this. You'll notice that when I write, I am usually putting out what I have *personally* learned and experienced *first hand* over twenty-five years. A lot of it is in direct contrast and contradiction to the lore of the backlot book-writing crowd. That's what I'm here for: real thoughts; real experience. I should also say here that most of your stuff is pretty good, Bill in case you think I'm picking on you. I'm not picking on anyone. (I may be picking on some ideas though). For survival of this list as a worthwhile source of info, there has to be some limit to how low the level of discussion can go. There has to be some limit to how often the same question is covered, or as I said in my original post, the older members will simply leave and go elsewhere. sci.agriculture.beekeeping was created to handle the really basic and chatty stuff, but a lot seems to come here. I gather Aaron is contemplating some form of moderation. I know he doesn't find the idea appealing -- both on philosophical grounds and the simple fact that it is extra work, but I also know that someday soon it will happen simply because of a few who post 'me too' after quoting an epistle -- and things about plutonium -- and then descend to trying to insult one another. This list is near 800 in members now. If everyone just posts everything that comes into his head or starts repeating booklore, there will be no room for the good stuff. So what I am saying is, newbies, do your homework. *Then* ask questions that reflect a **basic** knowledge of bees and beekeeping. And oldbies -- just 'cause you read a book once and/or had a hive or two, don't just run for your keyboard and type out what you recollect from your reading. Flames to /dev/nul Allen (DAR) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:57:01 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Biodiversity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Association of Southern Maryland Beekeepers meeting (U.S.A.) Guest Speaker: Dr. Anita Collins Topic: Drones - Mating One of the main things that I remember Dr. Collins mentioning is that since we have lost so much of our wild stock, the gene pool has shrunk drastically. The bees that we order from package bee people carry the genes from their area. When we have these bees and no wild bees, the matings that take place may be from drones from the queen's own colony. These produce diploids, which the worker bees can reconize and proceed to eat. It was speculated that this may be a reason that the queens seem to fail or at least not to lay enough eggs to get the hive going strong. It may be a good idea to get bees from different areas or requeen from different queen raisers. Since I carry no credentials in this area I would like to have feedback. I think it was nice when we had feral colonies that mated with our bees, then we had genes from bees that had survived and prospered in our enviroment, whereever that may have been. What now? billy bee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:26:00 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Alyn W. Ashworth" Subject: Re: Frame spacing In-Reply-To: <14293148503795@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 My limited experience has shown that a gradual reduction in spacing as comb is buit gives efficient use of supers together with regular comb and easy uncapping. I have found that putting in foundation at 8-spacing gives lots of brace comb, wavy surfaces to the comb, and difficult uncapping with lots of wasted wax that the bees have spent much energy producing but which I have to take away from them. The technique (which I was taught by a much more experienced bee-keeper) is as follows :- I use a combination of removable plastic spacers on the ends of the frames (these used to be called metal ends). I have short and long ones, so I can vary the spacing between frames to give 10 frames (all short spacers), 9 frames (alternate long and short), or 8 frames (all long). When I start with a new super, the frames have foundation in and I use all short spacers. Next year, after the first uncapping, the cells are not very deep, so I use alternate spacers. After the second uncapping the cells are nice and deep, and I use wide spacers all through. Obviously, I have to be flexible depending on how the individual combs have developed, but I just keep a few of each size of spacer handy. -- Alyn W. Ashworth Lancashire & North-West Bee-Keepers' Association. UK. (but I don't speak on their bee-half) http://www.demon.co.uk/emphasys ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:22:03 -0500 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: mutch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I'm also taking tomorrow off to enjoy my bees and harvest some honey. enjoy it, and have a good harvest -- Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | EMAIL:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:21:12 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Hive Ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I am a new beekeeper living just outside Dublin Ireland I heard recently that hive ventilation is most important and that the hives should be properly ventilated even if this means that a strong current of air is blowing through them. I was also told that when the Autumn (Fall) feeding is over, that I should raise the crown boards slightly with match sticks to give additional ventilation. What do experienced beekeepers recommend?. Thanks for any help Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:48:07 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: books and magazine articles A few years ago when I purchased my first two nuc,s from one of the bee inspectors in CT I was told to take all the books and articles with a grain of salt for this reason.- The guys writing the books and articles mostly worked for universities and didn't get out much and that if the did not publish they could lose their jobs or not get promoted. So we have experimented trying ideas on one or two hives at a time to see if there was a catastrophe lurking or if there was any difference worth the effort. As for you commercial types I still don't see how you do it at the prices published for honey and pollination. Thats damn hard work ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:43:39 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Hive Ventilation In-Reply-To: <199709191121.MAA08378@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I heard recently that hive ventilation is most important and that the > hives should be properly ventilated even if this means that a strong > current of air is blowing through them. Ventilation is important, however too much can be as bad as too little, since it results in wasted feed and stress on the bees. > I was also told that when the Autumn (Fall) feeding is over, that I > should raise the crown boards slightly with match sticks to give > additional ventilation. This is practised in some areas to ensure moisture does not accumulate. What works best will depend on your local conditions and winter humidity. Shelter from winds can be important for survival, and sometimes insulation will add a greater degree of certainty as well. We use an auger hole in the upper box or a small slit in the front of the top cover in winter, however we are in a very dry area. Best advice is to consult several beekeepers *in your own locality* who have had sucess *over the years* and adopt whichever practice seems to balance survival and effort. Since this question has been discussed in the past a bit, you can check the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L ventilation for more information. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:38:07 -0700 Reply-To: dougm@west-teq.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug McCulloch Subject: bulk honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone heard what the latest offerings are for bulk honey, in western Canada? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:04:51 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: bulk honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: dougm@west-teq.net Subject: Re: bulk honey prices Reply-to: allend@internode.net Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:01:54 -0600 > Has anyone heard what the latest offerings are for bulk honey, in > western Canada? Seems to be rising. Was 94c CAD, then 97c CAD, now $1.00 CAD for water white, mixed flowers. Add 5c for high clover Currency conversion: $1 CAD = ~ US $0.7175 or $1 US = ~$1.39 CAD Allen You can check the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L topic Substitute a key word or two for the word 'topic' above Try it -- You'll Like it! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:30:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rory Stenerson <71762.1664@compuserve.com> Subject: 8-Frame Equipment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Greetings, Does anybody have any suggested sources for "8-Frame" equipment, i.e. deeps, supers, bottom boards, covers, etc.? Thank you in advance, **************************************************************** * I believe that the phenomena of nature * * is the expression of infinite intelligence. * * I express my belief that all forms of life * * are manifestations of spirit * * and thus, we are all children of God, Peace * **************************************************************** * Rory Stenerson _ * * Member - Centre County Beekeepers Association _( )_ ^ * * V.P. - State College Underground Maltsters ( - ) * * State College, PA U.S.A. ^ ( - ^ ) ^ * * E-mail: 71762.1664@compuserve.com ( - - ) * * ( - +++ ) * **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:15:27 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Health risk from raw honey? In-Reply-To: <01INR7ARXNHW00CRK9@uno.cc.geneseo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 17 Sep 97 at 16:14, Edward Beary wrote: > organisms, be it from out houses or what ever. The problem comes > when the honey is heated to over a 100 F which destroys the enzymes > that produce the peroxides and is far from the temperature that > would destroy the harmful bacteria. (Actually 100 F is pretty close > to ideal for bacteria that might grow in humans.) I picked this out of a post from Edward Beary, and am rather suprised that no-one else made any comment. The way I read this, and I am open to correction, is that pasturised honey does not contain the enzymes (destroyed by heat) that produce the bacterial destroying peroxides. Put more simply, it won't kill the bugs off, in which case most of it's ideal properties are lost. So if I use pasturised honey for health remedies it would be a waste of time? I think this matter is worthy of more discussion. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:15:29 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Sugar Prices In-Reply-To: <970918180602_1458437885@emout04.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 18 Sep 97 at 18:27, Rex Bryant wrote: > please forgive my ignorance in the relation to sugar & bees. I have > been corrected & hope everyone will move on now to bee related > facts. thanks. I do keep bees and have tried to assist them by > feeding them sugar concentrated water. However, I found that many > bees drowned in the sugar water. Any suggestions? > There are many ways of feeding bees sugar syrup. It might be quicker if you were a little more explicit as to your current method. One of the major problems, too much bee space. It allows the crush of hungry bees to push each other into and under the syrup. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Biodiversity In-Reply-To: <199709182349.TAA09758@eagle1.eaglenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 18 Sep 97 at 19:57, Bill Bartlett wrote: > shrunk drastically. The bees that we order from package bee people > carry the genes from their area. When we have these bees and no > wild bees, the matings that take place may be from drones from the > queen's own colony. These produce diploids, which the worker bees > can reconize and proceed to eat. It was speculated that this may be > a reason that the queens seem to fail or at least not to lay enough > eggs to get the hive going strong. When we talk of the queens "Pattern" this is what we are refering to. How many holes that develop within the egg laying pattern depends on how close to brother-sister mating takes place. Dr. Nasr did work on this as previously reported. As he found, the closer the mating to brother-sister then the more holes developed in the pattern, to the point the hive became unviable. I would suggest that a checking point for new queens would be the amount of holes developed in the pattern. Too many, and that queen needs replacing and using a different breeder next time. A word of caution. At certain times of the year ie. heavy flow, it is possible that the central area will get clogged with incoming nectar, until the bees get organised and store it away. The way we check, is to note which frame she is laying on, then go back after sealing to check for holes. Good breeders maintain diversity in their drone stock. We have achieved 10 line diversity and struggle hard to maintain them to ensure that our queens achieve good mating diversity. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:21:54 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Bees and cabon dioxide Bill Bartlett wrote: About AHB and using a pipe to stop blowing on them. I actually find working my bees that blowing on them is usefulat times as it makes them move away if they are swarming and seeing as the sting response is generally inactivated, they don't rise up and sting as normal. There are drawbacks. It is better to wear a veil when blowing the remainder of a swarm of a branch. This however reduces the ariflow. I therefore used to not wear a veil, until I inhaled a bee and it stung me on my little tonge. Felt like a crocodile was hanging on it for about five hours and it made eating very unpleasant. So yes, african honeybbes do react to carbon dioxide, but I don't know how the reaction is with AHB? Keep well GArth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:38:48 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: good idea or luck/laying workers Hi All I have recieved a number of posts about something I metnioned about combining what we here in A.m.capensis country call a laying worker hive. Normal bees, ie A.m.everything else can develop laying workers that lay drone eggs. Our bees here, develop laying workers that lay clone eggs. IE every egg they lay is a copy of themselves and is a fully fledged femal worker bee. As you can see this has a number of important problems. If you get a swam and the queen does not get caught, you end up with a hive that has brood but not enought to grow. It draws comb even, forages for pollen, and can even swarm. Sometimes as the LW gets old they will swarm and a new queen will be raised. This is cool. More often than not one ends up with a sill foul smelling hive that is docile and stupid. I hate laying workers. But: if any other sub-species of bee should be in the area of a A.m.capenis hive, if it's queen should die, or get weak, a capensis worker will be brought in to substitute her as they smell more queen like, the colony will be capensised and die of largely. Hence beekeepers in the transvaal have had to kill of thousands and thousands of contaminated hives because of migratory beekeepers taking hives up there. So: the queen is not the only egg layer! Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:33:34 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bernard Heymans Subject: Re: Hive Ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Greetings from Belgium. Usualy we have here about 200 raining days a year. This year we had 20 days (-20=B0C) freze at christmas.. and 4 days (-10=B0C= )=20 around the 15 april...=20 It's now three year that I keep the fooding hole (upper) open for the= winter... after comparison test, it was the best solution... mid february I close=20 it and place a news paper on top of the hives. The bees could do well even with just a grid at the bottom ( completely=20 open, but protection against mouses) and a hole at the upper side.=20 Result was that I had the best spring I ever had. It's natural for bees to live far north for our area... so let they=20 live naturaly... You can have a beter effect by planting some=20 pollen willows on some free areas in your "neightbourhoud?". In Irland as in Belgium, the biggest problem is not the cold, it's the= water.=20 The air stay humid in the winter... So keeping ventilation is good. Bernard. At 12:21 19/09/97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi All > >I am a new beekeeper living just outside Dublin Ireland > >I heard recently that hive ventilation is most important and that the hives >should be properly ventilated even if this means that a strong current of >air is blowing through them. I was also told that when the Autumn (Fall) >feeding is over, that I should raise the crown boards slightly with match >sticks to give additional ventilation. > >What do experienced beekeepers recommend?. > >Thanks for any help > >Sincerely > >Tom Barrett >49 South Park >Foxrock >Dublin 18 >Ireland > >e mail: cssl@iol.ie > > ********************************************************************* * Bernard Heymans bheymans@informix.com *=20 * Informix Bruxelles tel -32-2 - 711 11 30 * * Support Contract Specialist fax -32-2 - 711.11.22 * ********************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:49:18 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Second hand equipment Hi All On the second hand equipment side of things I would like to say that I am really glad I started with second hand equipment. Bees don't like to go where bees have not been before I find. So, if I put bees in new boxes, I have to give them a frame of brood. If I put them in old boxes, they stay. New frames in a catch box don't catch bees. Old frames do. New frames can have as many viruses as old frames, as wax made into foundation is heated, but handled by people that handle hundreds of kgs of wax and spread viruse by hand all over the place. I think that maybe second hand equipment from a good source (old honest beekeeper) is a good idea, and useful in seeing how bees react in an environment in which they are at home. I would hate to live in a house where I had to put all the plaster in myself and so on. Would muc rather spend time building beehives. I gather bees much prefer their frames with that nice brown layer over them, and the hive nicely gummed up. Just my two cents (given the exchange rate to SA rand, it is worth nearly nothing.) Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:18:41 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Biodiversity In-Reply-To: <199709191627.MAA26582@segwun.muskoka.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I would suggest that a checking point for new queens would be the > amount of holes developed in the pattern. Too many, and that queen needs > replacing and using a different breeder next time. A word of caution. At > certain times of the year ie. heavy flow, it is possible that the central > area will get clogged with incoming nectar, until the bees get organised > and store it away. The way we check, is to note which frame she is laying > on, then go back after sealing to check for holes. To add to this, it is important to remember that a queen can inheirit a bad pattern from a previous queen. If she fills holes as fast as the young bees hatch, there will be shotgun patterns for a few generations. If a queen has even one frame where she has a good pattern, that likely indicates she is not suffering from the fault in question. Allen You can check the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L topic Substitute a key word or two for the word 'topic' above Try it -- You'll Like it! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:32:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chip McCurdy Subject: Re: good idea or luck/laying workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ???????????????????????????????????? ---------- > From: Garth > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: good idea or luck/laying workers > Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 14:38 > > Hi All > > I have recieved a number of posts about something I metnioned about > combining what we here in A.m.capensis country call a laying worker > hive. > > Normal bees, ie A.m.everything else can develop laying workers that > lay drone eggs. > > Our bees here, develop laying workers that lay clone eggs. IE every > egg they lay is a copy of themselves and is a fully fledged femal > worker bee. As you can see this has a number of important problems. > > If you get a swam and the queen does not get caught, you end up with > a hive that has brood but not enought to grow. It draws comb even, > forages for pollen, and can even swarm. Sometimes as the LW gets old > they will swarm and a new queen will be raised. This is cool. More > often than not one ends up with a sill foul smelling hive that is > docile and stupid. I hate laying workers. > > But: if any other sub-species of bee should be in the area of a > A.m.capenis hive, if it's queen should die, or get weak, a capensis > worker will be brought in to substitute her as they smell more queen > like, the colony will be capensised and die of largely. Hence > beekeepers in the transvaal have had to kill of thousands and > thousands of contaminated hives because of migratory beekeepers > taking hives up there. > > So: the queen is not the only egg layer! > > Keep well > > Garth > > > --- > Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries > 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis > Grahamstown 800ml annual precipitation > 6139 > Eastern Cape > South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 > > 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University > In general, generalisations are bad. > Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:51:06 +0000 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: U. Michigan Dept. of Anatomy & Cell Biology Subject: Re: 8-Frame Equipment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rory Stenerson wrote: > > Greetings, > > Does anybody have any suggested sources for "8-Frame" equipment, i.e. > deeps, supers, bottom boards, covers, etc.? > The only different equipment you might need are eight-frame spacers, manufactured by Stoller (who also, of course, makes the more common nine-frame spacers). Otherwise, all the other equipment is identical to the ten-frame Langstroth standard. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:45:25 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Biodiversity In-Reply-To: <199709182349.TAA09758@eagle1.eaglenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Bill Bartlett wrote: > Subject: Association of Southern Maryland Beekeepers meeting (U.S.A.) > > Guest Speaker: Dr. Anita Collins > > Topic: Drones - Mating > > One of the main things that I remember Dr. Collins mentioning is that since > we have lost so much of our wild stock, the gene pool has shrunk > drastically. The bees that we order from package bee people carry the > genes from their area. When we have these bees and no wild bees, the > matings that take place may be from drones from the queen's own colony. > These produce diploids, which the worker bees can reconize and proceed to > eat. It was speculated that this may be a reason that the queens seem to > fail or at least not to lay enough eggs to get the hive going strong. > > It may be a good idea to get bees from different areas or requeen from > different queen > raisers. Hi Billy and All, Nature will balance out. The problem is what blood lines and genes will we have left. The researchers in genetics of the honey bee do understand the down side and the upside of the situation.We can use the cut back of the gene pool to revitalize our gene pool with fresh stock.This has been needed in the US for some time.Care must be taken in the selection of some new stock. This is not an easy task or a fast one. We will have some problems with some queen breeders. We should find out who has the best stock and is doing the correct crossbreeding. The USDA needs to give us some info on what they are doing about the situation. It is not a nonproblem to walk around.It takes money and let the USDA know if you have a problem with your queens.That should get the issue out in the open. Beekeepers need to get involved and not just complain to a fellow beekeeper. We can not win with wet towels. Some areas of the world has some very good stock. Its time to share are info more openly with everyone. Beekeeping is very important to man and the world of nature.I have seen gene problems and I have seen some very great queens and bees.We need to protect some of the wild stock from around the world. Too much inbreeding has already caused the beekeepers some problems.The issue of breeding is very complex. It never ends at a point and we can say that were done.We have models to follow so we are not making the wheel all over. HoneyBee Genetics by Dr. Rinderer has a wealth of information if you want to see the complexity of bee breeding. Its not lite reading. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:19:22 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kelley Rosenlund Subject: Re: 8-Frame Equipment? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The only different equipment you might need are eight-frame spacers, >manufactured by Stoller (who also, of course, makes the more common >nine-frame spacers). Otherwise, all the other equipment is identical >to the ten-frame Langstroth standard. There is an 8 frame hive configuration in addition to the 10 frame. I am told it used to be popular with beekeepers that produced comb honey. I use 8 frame hives since the are lighter and MUCH easier to lift. Swarm control is a lot more crucial as the bees can get crowded sooner (I have done my share to increase the number of ferral hives the past couple years ;)). God Bless, Kelley Rosenlund rosenlk@freenet.ufl.edu Gainesville, Florida, U.S.A., Voice:352-378-7510 Fax/voice:352-372-0078 150 hives, Beekeeping since 1995. 8 frame deeps,shallows. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:21:25 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: returned files MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear friends: I have had several posts returned by your carriers. Regardless of how many times I have tried I keep getting them back. (One example among many: rlafla@juno.com). Sorry fellows. But please do not despair. Barry Birkey has graciously offered to place my files on his web page. Please wait a few days to allow Barry to make the arrangements. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:34:41 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Inner Covers I have a bunch of lovely, old wooden inner covers, made from thin wooden boards. Unfortunately, some of my bees glue these covers so well to the top hive body (and its frames) that I end up peeling them off the hive instead of lifting them off. My homemade, thin plywood inner covers delaminate on the edges when I take them off the colony. Does anyone have a trick for keeping inner covers from being damaged. I do try to clear the propolis with a hive tool before I do any lifting. Tim Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:47:13 +0000 Reply-To: nickw@wave.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Nick Wallingford Subject: 'Rules of thumb'... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Once upon I time I got my first taste of unpleasantness from this list when I asked for contributions of beekeepers' rules of thumb, the 'expert knowledge' that makes it so much easier when you are experienced. Things like how much paint, how many nails, for a given number of supers, etc. I've just added a page to the NZ Beekeepers' Pages with JavaScript calculations for a *wide variety* of both 'straight conversions' but also many that have in-built assumptions and other beekeepers' experiences built into them. I'd welcome your comments, either personal or to the list... http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/convert.htm (\ Nick Wallingford nickw@wave.co.nz {|||8- NZ beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz (/ Autoresponder - info@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:06:24 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: 'Rules of thumb'... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick: Fantastic page!! Thanks for the hard work...:) Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 11 colonies ---------- > From: Nick Wallingford > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: 'Rules of thumb'... > Date: Saturday, September 20, 1997 11:47 AM > > I've just added a page to the NZ Beekeepers' Pages with JavaScript > calculations for a *wide variety* of both 'straight conversions' but > also many that have in-built assumptions and other beekeepers' > experiences built into them. > > I'd welcome your comments, either personal or to the list... > > http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/convert.htm > > > (\ Nick Wallingford nickw@wave.co.nz > {|||8- NZ beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz > (/ Autoresponder - info@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:56:37 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Periodic Post: Best of BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Want to reduce your incoming email? Want to avoid unpleasantness and irrelevance and still follow BEE-L? Subscribing to the 'Best of Bee' list will bring you only selected and edited posts from BEE-L. This is a reduction of anywhere from 10 to 90% in mail flow (about an 80% reduction in the past week). Best of Bee is best suited to experienced or professional beekeepers and others who wish to avoid very basic discussions, chatter, flames, misdirected posts, long quotes and 'me too' responses but still track the significant activity on the BEE-L mailing list and also be able to participate in discussion by posting to BEE-L when desired. How to receive Best of Bee: 1.) Send email to HoneyBee@systronix.net, saying JOIN BESTOFBEE allend@internode.net (Use your actual email address to which you wish to have the list sent in place of 'allend@internode.net' in the above example). 2.) If you are a BEE-L subscriber and want to turn off BEE-L -- without losing the privilege of posting to BEE-L in response to the messages received on Best of Bee, send email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SET BEE-L NOMAIL There are currently over 340 subscribers to Best of Bee. For more information about Best of Bee, send email to bees@systronix.net, saying SEND BESTBEE in the subject line. You will receive a text file in return. For those who want to know more about the selection and editorial policies of Best of Bee, send email to bees@systronix.net, saying SEND CRITERIA in the subject line. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:07:59 +0000 Reply-To: amccaw@clear.net.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen McCaw Subject: Re: Inner Covers - damage In-Reply-To: <04323750108350@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 19 Sep 97 at 22:33,Tim Sterret wrote: > Subject: Inner Covers > Does anyone have a trick for keeping inner covers from being damaged. I do > try to clear the propolis with a hive tool before I do any lifting. I don't know if this will work for inner covers or not, but one small trick some beekeepers have used for comb honey supers to prevent the bees sticking frames together between supers - with consequent damage to valuable comb when you prise them apart - is to smear a THIN coat of medical-grade petroleum jelly across the top bars of one super and also the bottom bars of the next one on top. This seems to discourage the bees from placing wax - and maybe propolis on these surfaces - at least for the period of a honey-flow. No doubt, if they are determined to do so, the "little darlings" will glue things together in time. It might work for your boards - no guarantees ! We have noted that laminated plywood covers do peel apart over time - as much from a bit of moisture in the hive as anything. Here in NZ, most beekeepers use a high density compressed fibre wallboard sheet called "hardboard" for inner covers. They can collect a liberal amount of wax and propolis sometimes too, but they do not de-laminate when you lift them off, and are easily scraped clean in the field. As an aside - speaking of petroleum jelly - or "Vaseline" as it is known here. Did you hear the story about the newly - married, young couple who didn't know the difference between Vaseline and glazing putty ?? Naturally - all their windows fell out when the sun shone ! Allen McCaw, Milburn Apiaries Ltd. R.D.2, Milton, South Otago, New Zealand. Ph/FAX: (0064) 3417-7198. E-Mail: amccaw@clear.net.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:36:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Re: 8-Frame Equipment? When it comes to uncapping 8 frames out of a 10 frame box--------easier to uncap. Also,I know of one person that uses 8 frame equiptment all the way.... He has a major lact of lead in his tail.They're easier to handle,even for folks like me with an ample amount of lead in the tail. Take Care and GBY,John in Homestead,also at ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:31:33 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Inner Covers Comments: To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Tim, Most of my inner covers are homemade, and very simple. I use 3/8" exterior-grade plywood, and nail/glue a 3/8" rim around the upper surface. (The lower surface is just flat.) Then I drill a 2" diameter hole in the center, for feeding, venting, or whatever. I have never had a problem with de-laminating. I do put one coat of latex paint around the edges, but I don't think that would make much difference. Yes, I have had the same problem with old, thin inner covers tearing apart and leaving wide splinters stuck to the top bars! It is a pain. Also, the cheap "masonite" inner covers sometimes swell up with moisture and often warp -- you can't win! Let me suggest that (perhaps) you are having the problem because there is inadequate bee-space above your top-bars. No fault of your own, just some manufacturers don't leave enough bee-space above the frames like they are *supposed* to. Try this, anyway: Tack a thin rim to the undersides of the inner covers. That is, maybe a scant 1/4" rim. I have seen this done on some homemade inner covers. That may be all you need. (On the other hand, I have seen some inners that had 3/8-1/2" rim above *and* below, and never could figure that out. Always ended up with lots of burr comb on the top bars. When it's full of honey you have a nice mess) Let me know how you make out. If you can get a good 1/4-3/8" clearance between the inner cover surface and the top bars themselves, it should do away with the trouble. Good luck... Best wishes, Joel Govostes Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:52:24 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Christophe Sandoz Subject: permeability of beewax to volatiles As a research group in Entomology, we are looking for information and bibliographical references on the possible permeability of beewax, especially brood caps) to a variety of gases and organic volatiles (alcohols, aldehydes, phenyls...) Thanks to all people giving us any information on the subject JC Sandoz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:22:58 -0700 Reply-To: dpbees@slkc1.slkc.uswest.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Derk Phelps Organization: Phelps Honey Farm Subject: Pulling Honey--Methods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, We are stuck with a dilema, What to use to pull our honey. We have about 350-400 colonies and the work is done by two people. We have been using a blower and gone back to Bee-go. Bee-go smells BAD and will not work in less than perfect weather conditions. Blower is too slow and physically draining. A good year we pull 20 ton. Any ideas? suggestions? Help and advice would be greatly appreciated. Please email me directly, Thanks Derk Phelps Phelps Honey Farm dpbees@slkc.uswest.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:33:33 +0000 Reply-To: p.bray@airborne.co.nz Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT - Pollen in Honey In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917225223.007b4530@calwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > From: Andy Nachbar > AUNT SUE honey is not filtered using DE so it does contain small amounts of > Why anyone would want this pollen in honey is beyond me as it does > not occur in honey naturally other then as a contamination. Bees don't add > it to honey, if you add much of it to their own honey and feed it back to > them they will get sick and die. It's the beekeepers that add pollen to > honey in the extracting proces........... This is partly true, partly false. Most plants that have evolved with an insect as their prime pollinator tend to attract insect with nect and the anthers are close to the nectaries. In these plants, considerable pollen gets into the nectar before the bees collect it, gravity, wind etc. playing a part. This pollen is found in freshly drawn comb honey where no stored pollen is in evidence. We did some internal trials some years ago and found levels of 30,000 - 150,000 pollen grains per 10 grams (from memory). Extracted honeys have around 2-3 times the amount of pollen (grains per 10 grams, not volume - an entirely different storey due to the differences in individual pollen grain size). Andy is correct that beekeepers can (not always) "contaminate" honey with pollen during the extraction process. Beekeeping management can affect this, type of cappings system, use of queen excluders (bees tend to store less above the excluder), the use of a permanent feed box above the brood nest instead of stripping hives right down etc, will all play a part in whether or not "contamination" will occur. Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@airborne.co.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:52:57 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harvey Hyde Organization: Government of Prince Edward Island Subject: Re: Bees eat only "liquids"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees may have no teeth and weak mandibles but a few years back a persistant honeybee regularly woke me in the morning by biting at my bedroom window screen. A closer inspection indicated that it was indeed a honey bee that seemed to be attacking the metal wire itself. I suspected it was lacking in some mineral or other? -- Harvey Hyde RR#2 Cornwall, PEI Canada C0A-1H0 hhyde@cycor.ca http://www.angelfire.com/hi/HarveyHyde ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:37:23 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kuyckx Maurice Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Heymans wrote: > > Hi, > > You are right... BUT: > > In europe they now managed so that: > > - Chocolate doesn't need to contain cacao > - Whisky, or vodka can be made of MAIS. > - a chicken is a stuff that grow up in 5 weeks feed on fish powder. > - a pig is also feeded on fish powder.. and taste the same as chicken. > - Dog Food need to be germ free. > - poeple sell car that have 150.000 KM as nearly new... > - ... > > So I do sell my honing at 500 fr/ kg (~15 USD)... > It ask me some time to explain what is honing, how we produce it... > Some of my friends go to schools, other to commercials centres,... > > TO EXPLAIN, TO MAKE POEPLE TASTE VARIOUS HONINGS. > > INCLUDING BAD ONES. > > Why are making noise on that... just sell what you want to sell at > the price you want for it... > > You know that Coka Cola makes a lot of noise to say is its price worth. > > Bernard. > > >Allen Dick wrote: > >> > >> Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? > >> > >> What's the difference? > > > >Fresh carrot is not like boiled carrot. > >Raw honey is not like heated honey. > >I mean not only taste, there are a lot of other differences, I think > >that everybody know that. > > > >Costel > > > >**************************************************************** > >Costel Pintilie > >**************************************************************** > >= Secretary of a beekeeper * D O N' T W O R R Y > >= Go player * B E E H A P P Y > >= Computer addicted * C O U L D B E: > >= Citizen of a society of slaves * > >= Son of a bee * > >= @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * *** *** *** > >= @@@@@@@@CENSORED@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * * * * * * * * * * > >= Vegetarian * * * * * * * *** *** *** > >= Starving * ** ** * * ** * * > >= Still happy * ** ** * * * *** *** > >**************************************************************** > > > > > ********************************************************************* > * Bernard Heymans bheymans@informix.com * > * Informix Bruxelles tel -32-2 - 711 11 30 * > * Support Contract Specialist fax -32-2 - 711.11.22 * > ********************************************************************* I think 300 BEF/Kg will be enough.Maurice. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:56:37 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? What's the difference? Raw Honey: Many people prefer completely unpasteurized, raw honey -- often for allergy or medicinal reasons. Raw honey is honey that has never been exposed to heat above the normal 95 degree Fahrenheit internal temperature of a beehive. Due to the confusing terms and rules employed in honey labelling, people very often do not get what they think they are buyin g. Pasteurized Honey: Why Pasteurize Honey anyhow? Commercial honey packing plants pasteurize honey to enhance its appearance for the mass market. It has everything to do with marketing and store shelf life, and little, if anything , to do with human healt h. Fine filtering using high heats and a diatomaceous earth filter removes specks of natural beeswax, small crystals, and pollen grains that are normally found in natural honey. Removing them allows the product to stay liquid and sparkling clear on store shelves for years. Without heating the honey, it is impossible to remove all these specks. In the process of heating honey to go through the filter, pasteurization occurs and any yeasts which might cause spoilage in high moisture honey are killed. Honey labelled "Pasteurized" is therefore permitted under law to have about one percent more mois ture (18.6%) than unpasteurized honey (17.8%), and is therefore usually thinner. Store brands of honey will usually be exactly at the 18.6% limit. Low moisture unprocessed honey will not spoil. (As a matter of interest, when honey spoils it first becomes alcohol and then vinegar, so spoilage is not hazardous). Our honey varies naturally from 16% to 17% and is therefore thicker than most store brands and will not spoil. We guarantee that. No time limit. Health Issues? There are, however, valid reasons not to pasteurize, since honey contains minority constituents that seem beneficial and are apparently sensitive to heat. Since bees and humans do not share any known diseases, there is no valid health reason to sterilize honey that has been safely handled and not exposed to obvious human or animal contamination. Honey is not a good medium for bacterial growth. Instead honey kills bacteria quickly and, in fact, is a good wound dressing. Unpasteurized or Not Pasteurized -- the Legal Perspective: In Canada, only special federally licensed pasteurizing plants may legally label their honey "Pasteurized'', but they can legally label the same honey "Unpasteurized" or "Not Pasteurized" if th ey think it will sell better. In fact, they are not required to mention pasteurization on the label at all. On the other hand, other packers, or beekeepers, may not legally feature the word "Pasteurized'' on a label even if they were to heat honey to very high temperatures. Many beekeepers use considerable heat on their "Raw", "Unpasteurized" honey since mu ch of the commercial equipment sold for honey extracting is designed to use heat well above 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Our natural honey is completely raw. So is our wildflower honey. Our buckwheat honey may not be entirely raw. Our honey -- just as it comes from the beehives -- is well below the 17.5% moisture threshold for spoilage. Moreover, for your assurance, we are federally inspected for food safety and offer a full moneyback guarantee. Allen & Ellen Dick, Beekeepers Rural Route One , Swalwell, Alberta T0M 1Y0 Telephone & Fax: 1-403-546-2588 8AM to 9PM Mountain Time You can check the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L topic Substitute a key word or two for the word 'topic' above Try it -- You'll Like it! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:27:02 -0700 Reply-To: leonc@telusplanet.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "L.&J. Christensen" Organization: Ikin Enterprises Ltd. Subject: Re: Bees and cabon dioxide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garth wrote: I > therefore used to not wear a veil, until I inhaled a bee and it stung > me on my little tonge. Felt like a crocodile was hanging on it for > about five hours and it made eating very unpleasant. Please forgive me for digressing but....how in the world did you happen to learn what it feels like to have a crocodile hanging on your tongue?!! Just curious. Leon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:44:13 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Inner Covers In a message dated 97-09-20 08:44:54 EDT, you write: << Most of my inner covers are homemade, and very simple. I use 3/8" exterior-grade plywood, and nail/glue a 3/8" rim around the upper surface. (The lower surface is just flat.) Then I drill a 2" diameter hole in the center, for feeding, venting, or whatever. >> Mine are made from cheesy 1/4" luan and similar plywood that I get free. The trick to keeping them sound so far has been a rim of real wood on both sides with the nails clinched from both sides. Use nails long enough to go throug all three pieces and then some and then bend them over. Half the nails driven from one side half from the other. Glue doesn't hurt either I have been using tightbond 2.. Am gonna try the petroleum jelly though. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:02:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "John J. Moore" Subject: GRANULATION LABELS HI Could someone please tell me where can I get a granulation label that also has a made in the USA on it. Thanks John Moore Celestial Offerings Inc Gifts of Nature 3rd year 18 Hives ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:56:04 +0000 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.Com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Re: Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Thomas) (Cornick) wrote: > Mine are made from cheesy 1/4" luan and similar plywood that I get free. > The trick to keeping them sound so far has been a rim of real wood on both All of mine are made with 1/4" luan plywood and a solid piece of 5/8" x 3/4" pine used as the outer frame that has a dado in it for the plywood. Just as you would buy one. I have painted all sides of the covers and find them to hold up very well. Keep the proper bee space above the frames and protect the wood and you shouldn't have the problems you've described. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.Com http://www.birkey.com http://www.promisechecks.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:57:14 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: SEND RAW.TXT - Pollen in Honey Comments: To: p.bray@airborne.co.nz In-Reply-To: <199709190124.NAA19711@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:33 PM 9/19/97 +0000, Peter Bray wrote: >This pollen is found in freshly >drawn comb honey where no stored pollen is in evidence. We did some >internal trials some years ago and found levels of 30,000 - 150,000 >pollen grains per 10 grams (from memory). Extracted honeys have >around 2-3 times the amount of pollen (grains per 10 grams, not >volume - an entirely different storey due to the differences in >individual pollen grain size). There never has been a positive statement about beekeeping that an exception can not be demonstrated, that's rule number uno in beekeeping observations. I have not doubts at all that in some areas there are plants that produce pollen that gets in the nectar that can not be filtered out of the nectar by the bee. I suspect at least from what I have seen here that this is an exception and that even then that pollen may or may not play a positive role in bee nutrition. >Andy is correct that beekeepers can (not always) "contaminate" honey >with pollen during the extraction process. Beekeeping management can >affect this, type of cappings system, use of queen excluders (bees >tend to store less above the excluder), the use of a permanent feed >box above the brood nest instead of stripping hives right down etc, >will all play a part in whether or not "contamination" will occur. Again as I have not visited all honey houses in the world there may be some that do extract honey without any pollen contamination in the process, this is good but not the normal situation that I have observed in the hundreds of honey houses I have been able to visit. On the subject of world trade in Honey and conditions that can materially effect the market there is something going on right now that has not been reported. "A large amount (as many as 60 containers) of exported honey from SA to a European buyer has been found to have unapproved antibiotics in it." Depending on who found what and where the norm is for this kind of honey to be transhipped to another willing buyer at a low price depressing the total world honey market. All should be on guard for any unrealistic offers of honey until this matter is clarified as to the actual extent of the problem as what is now known has not been verified as is only intended to be a "heads up" to those interested. ttul, Andy- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:32:03 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Inner Covers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For cold climates it is advantageous to use an inner cover which incorporates an inch of styrofoam between two layers of plywood or tempered masonite. It has a 3/16 by 3/4 inch rim top and bottom with a gap on one side to use as an upper entrance during the winter. I keep these on year round and do not use burlap ( why do people use burlap anyway? ). There is never any trouble getting them off. The tempered masonite is a hardboard material which has been treated to be water resistant and seems to stand up well inside beehives. If you don't use the rim, the bees fasten the cover pretty firmly to the top bars and there is some chance of delaminating the plywood when the cover is pried off. Luan plywood in my experience is not waterproof and delaminates by itself in wet conditions. We use exterior grade fir plywood which is bonded with a completely waterproof glue. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:13:47 GMT Reply-To: Tim_Sterrett@westtown.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Re: Inner Covers Thomas Cornick writes: The trick to keeping them sound so far has been a rim of real wood on both sides with the nails clinched from both sides. ********************** I agree. But the old inner covers (with their rims of wood and clinched nails) don't seem to be lasting as long as I would like them to last They were old when I got them and I would like them to last forever! Tim Tim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett@westtown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 00:37:55 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: GRANULATION LABELS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John J. Moore wrote: > > Could someone please tell me where can I get a granulation label that also > has > a made in the USA on it. I get mine from R.M. Farms, P.O. Box 684, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127-0684. Phone (313)722-7727 Fax (313)729-7826 Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:19:15 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Andy Nachbaur (by way of Andy Nachbar )" Subject: US HONEY STANDARDS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For anyone interested this should take you to the US Standards for (Extracted) HONEY. It is a PDF file and you can d/l the reader at this site if you do not have one. Don't forget there are local standards, and state standards, labeling standard, and standards for standards that also must be checked before selling honey, then there are taxes, licences, fees, and many other government schemes to get into your pocket. Maybe its better not to check out any of these laws and have a happy day because once you get into the business of food processing you won't get many of those from then on. ttul, the OLd Drone http://www.ams.usda.gov/standards/exhoney.pdf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:55:53 -0500 Reply-To: bkeep200@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "J.Troyer" Subject: Honeycomb pattern MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where I can find a honeycomb patterned tissue paper for gift baskets in the USA? It's not easy to locate! Thanks -- Mail to:bkeep200@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~bkeep200 Honey Hill Farm - Handcrafted Honey & Beeswax Soaps ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:11:15 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: US HONEY STANDARDS In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920231915.007bc100@calwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > For anyone interested this should take you to the US Standards for > (Extracted) HONEY. It is a PDF file and you can d/l the reader at this > site if you do not have one. > http://www.ams.usda.gov/standards/exhoney.pdf Unless you already have the Acrobat reader installed and the correct associations set up, the following URL will work better: http://www.ams.usda.gov/standards/sugar.htm The former site will get you the file, but not offer you the reader. Allen You can check the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L topic Substitute a key word or two for the word 'topic' above Try it -- You'll Like it! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:37:16 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Queen Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All Another question from a new beekeeper The book says, that when you lift the crown board, that you should check that the queen is not on the underside of it. It strikes me, that if you always put a queen excluder over the brood chamber even before you put on any supers. that this possibility would be eliminated, so it is one less thing for a new beekeeper (who like myself would not be able to identify the queen in the melee of bees anyway), to have to contend with. I am aware that a very small queen can possibily get through the excluder, but to an amateur, who would have difficulty in identifying any sized queen, this would hardly be of significance. What do our experienced people think? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:52:39 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Inner Covers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All Why not try vaseline to ensure that the bees do not propolise. I am a first year beekeeper and I have just acquired a third hive. I gave it a liberal coat of vaseline on the crownboard and on the faces of the frames and on the frame lugs and on the frame runners. I really enjoy working this vaselined hive - no trouble wrestling with the frames and annoying the bees, and lifting the crownboard for a quick peek is child's play. Is there any down side to vaseline, because to me at any rate, it seems to be all advantage?. Thanks for assistance Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:04:38 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Queem Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry - I failed to identify myself when sending the above posting Thanks for assistance Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:17:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "David S. Adams" Subject: Re: Queen Excluders YES, AS LONG AS YOUR QUEEN EXCLUDER IS IN GOOD SHAPE, IT WILL GENERALLY KEEP THE QUEEN OUT OF THE TOP BOXES. YOU OF COURSE NEED TO BE SURE SHE IS IN THE BOTTOM WHEN YOU PLACE IT ON THE BROOD BOX. THEY OCCASSIONALLY DO GET THROUGH THE EXCLUDERS FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER. IF SHE DOES GET THROUGH, YOU WILL FIND NEW BROOD IN THE TOP BOXES. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:37:56 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: Re: Queen Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:37 PM 9/21/97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi All > >Another question from a new beekeeper > >The book says, that when you lift the crown board, that you should check >that the queen is not on the underside of it. > >It strikes me, that if you always put a queen excluder over the brood >chamber even before you put on any supers. that this possibility would be >eliminated, so it is one less thing for a new beekeeper (who like myself >would not be able to identify the queen in the melee of bees anyway), to >have to contend with. > >I am aware that a very small queen can possibily get through the excluder, >but to an amateur, who would have difficulty in identifying any sized queen, >this would hardly be of significance. > >What do our experienced people think? > Hello, my name is Jeff Barnett and I've had some experience in commerical beekeeping. I'm not certain what you mean by crown board, but if you mean inner cover you shouldn't have to worry. If you use a serviceable queen excluder over a double brood box you should never have a problem (99%). However if you use your excluder over a shallow super and brood box, the queen has a higher chance of trying to get through the excluder. It's really pretty simple, the larger the honey barrier between the brood chamber and the queen excluder the less liklihood that the queen would even try to go above it. I hope this was helpful. Jeff Barnett beeman@preferred.com retired(for now) queen producer. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:46:31 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: Re: Inner Covers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:52 PM 9/21/97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi All > >Why not try vaseline to ensure that the bees do not propolise. > >I am a first year beekeeper and I have just acquired a third hive. I gave it >a liberal coat of vaseline on the crownboard and on the faces of the frames >and on the frame lugs and on the frame runners. > >I really enjoy working this vaselined hive - no trouble wrestling with the >frames and annoying the bees, and lifting the crownboard for a quick peek is >child's play. > >Is there any down side to vaseline, because to me at any rate, it seems to >be all advantage?. Dear friend, I don't know if their is a downside to the vaseline or not, but you must realize that propolis is important to the colony and you should not try to prevent the bees from making it for the following reasons: 1). Propolis is used as a waterproofing agent and protects against bacteria, molds, yeasts, fungi, etc. If you have any further questions or comments please respond to : Jeff Barnett beeman@preferred.com retired(for now) queen producer. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:37:27 +0000 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.Com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Dr. Rodriguez's Mineral Oil Files MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all - I would like to let everyone know that Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez's latest articles on mineral oil usage as a miticide against varroa are now available for download in PDF format at: http://www.birkey.com/BLB/Beekeeping/mineraloil.html. I plan to also have the files available as simple text files soon. There are graphics included in some of the files so the PDF format is by far the best cross platform file type available for this purpose. I will be adding any new information as Dr. Rodriguez has it available. My goal is to simply make the information accessible to as many people possible. If I can make these files more accessable to some (within reason), please drop me a line and I'll see what can be done. Regards -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.Com http://www.birkey.com http://www.promisechecks.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:17:03 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Les H Vaughn Subject: switching address If anybody cares I am switching my list service over to my main e-mail address so I can shut this one down. Les Vaughn leslist@juno.com Macedonia, Illinois USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:00:25 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brett D Bannon Subject: Grain Bag Inner Covers Reading in the ABJ there are a series of articles by KIRK WEBSTER of Middlebury, VT. In these articles and accompanying photos it shows the use of grain bag inner covers. It appears that they are easily and quietly removed. Do any Bee-Listers have experience using them? Also would someone have a complete address for Kirk Webster?