========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 05:24:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Newcomb Subject: Re: Penncap-M bee losses I just happened to read an article on methyl parathion in tonight's newspaper (Elyria, Ohio Chronicle Telegram, from the L.A. Times). MP is a pesticide used on cotton fields to control boll weevils. Developed as a nerve gas in Germany during WW2, it is a chemical cousin to the nerve gas Sarin. MP has been illegally used in homes as a pesticide. Here in Elyria, OH, the EPA had to clean 233 homes that had been illegally sprayed for roaches with MP. Mississippi also has the same problem on a larger scale. It is available through-out the southern US from pesticide suppliers, and, according to the article, can be obtained by non-licensed people fairly easily. I'm sure that it is labeled by the manufacturer as to the proper application and with warnings for drift, bees, etc. I have never heard of any non-target insect kill, but I'd be willing to bet it happens frequently. Steve Newcomb Elyria, OH ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:23:30 +0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Bees in nature reserves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Garth raises some valid points in relation to modifications bees make in an environment in which they did not evolve. Beekeepers are primary producers utilising multiple use vegetation. Hives in the vicinity of fruit orchards derive honey as well as providing pollination to increase fruit yield. Annuals and perennials all derive benefits from the activity of an efficient pollinator and Apis Mellifera is recognised as being essential to agriculture. Beekeepers do not own the crops their bees pollinate and without access to reliable nectar sources cannot maintain hive strength. >Bees shift a population naturally being a >different pollinator to the ones of old. So that means that >eventually you will end up with a population of trees that are >suitable for bees to live on. With time areas with large stands of >pollen defficient trees may say for example become bee defficient and >eventaully the trees there will be replaced by other trees. Maybe >onces something had a beheviour pattern that meant it could scavenge >enough pollen of these trees? There is an assumption here that without bees the vegetation will remain stable. Forests in Australia have evolved under environmental pressure and land management practised by indigenous and immigrant populations. Britain was once all forested and the rolling plains now featured on television programmes are the result of clearance for agriculture or ship-building. At what point do you attempt to freeze evolution? The eucalypt forests are here now. >> 2. Bees prefer hive sites with very small access holes, which are unlikely >> to be chosen by nesting birds. > >But are they likely to be chosen by native Trigonids? And what effect >does a beehive with increase moisture etc have on the innnerds of a >tree? No. Trigonids hives have very different structures as they do not build combs so much as cones comprised of pollen and propolis. An informal count by two beekeepers elsewhere in Australia noted that out of every 100 hollows, 4 were occupied at any given time. Feral hives live or die according to the cyclical flowering as they cannot abandon their young. Abandoned hive hollows are then adopted by birds (the beeswax being chewed as part flooring with no detrimental effect to eggs.) Here we have people that say >trout and oak trees are now naturalised. That is a myth. It takes a >eucalypt say 10 years to start seeding prolifically, another ten to >establish a mature thicket, maybe a hundred to go through a >succession satge. And maybe a thousand to stabilise. Then bees will >have altered their environment. Then maybe they will be naturalised. In South Australia we have areas designed "Wilderness" which effectively rules out all outside influences including access by bees. This is where the vegetation is recognised as being unique or particularly vulnerable. However should the ban on introduced species extend to areas allocated for logging? How about remnant vegetation on farmland? Watercourse and roadside vegetation? If you extend the analogy for protection of the historical species too far then you must eventually rule out any occupation by man. >Are there natural honey producers in Australia? >No noe that produce a similar surpluss, so something must be wrong >with the approach of Apis mellifera and it may be an over industrious >species. This is a bit like saying that rice produces too much food so should not be grown commercially in other countries. >Sorry to be argumentative about this, but I do believe that A.m must >have an effect, and hence should be eradicated from nature reserves. >In the rest of the country it can be kept, just controlled. There is a real argument for protection of nature reserves. However I do not believe this extends to an argument against utilization of species for commercial purposes simply because they are not introduced species. The key is to maintain a proper balance and it is only in the last twenty years that some understanding has been reached of the principles of sustainable agriculture and land care. I am uneasy with the example set by public servants who flout a direction from the elected government because it does not meet their ideological beliefs. This is lack of accountability. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Capturing feral hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Lewis wrote: > >A neighbor has a feral hive within the wall of his house. He wants it >removed and I would like to capture it with its queen. My only other >attempt at capturing a feral hive was a complete disaster. > >It would be appreciated if someone could share some techniques, hints and >anecdotes on how to capture feral hives in trees, walls, etc. We do remove feral hives as a service to neighbours but within cavity walls is a a difficult proposition. There are techniques such as one-way passages to close off re-entry but to capture the queen and hive you must expose the brood comb and cut it out as gently as possible. This must be attached to wired frames (I use a length of string wound around and tied, others recommend rubber bands). The frames with brood can be placed in your hive. If you do not disturb the bees greatly you may locate the queen and if she is confined to your hive box and all unsealed brood removed you do not have to worry too much about straggler bees. There is no point in transferring sealed or unsealed honey comb to the box - better to give them a well drawn frame to hasten the replenishment of the population. The difficulty arises if you do not find the queen and are left with a mass of bees in the wall space. To enable them to settle you must place your hive box so that they will enter at the same place they previously entered their hive. If this can be achieved the hive can be left to settle for a day or so and then removed at night when all the bees are in. We no longer remove bees from cavity walls because of the high failure rate in getting the hive box in the preferred position and because of the demolition work necessary to get access to the comb. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Laying workers. Comments: To: beeworks@muskoka.net In a message dated 97-10-21 03:20:16 EDT, beeworks@muskoka.net (David Eyre) writes: << We note the color of our bees and find a common colour throughout each baby nuc. When laying workers appear we start to notice bees of a slightly different colour, which because of their difference really stand out. Our normal bees have the usual segmentation of colour, but these new bees look for all the world as if their segmentation has slipped. The bottom two segments are shiny black. It would seem that as the laying worker problem becomes more intense then more and more of these different coloured bees appear. Could it be that these are the ones that have newly developed ovaries? It might be possible as our regular queens have a darker back end. Constructive comments anyone? >> I've seen the same effect with full sized hives. But I can't imagine that many of them going to laying. I've always considered it to be the general effect of no young bees and the whole adult population is aging. Their fuzz is wearing off, which helps make them more shiny Plus, with little brood, they are not flying as much for pollen. The bee life span is determined by flight time more than anything else. More bees all hanging around together in tight quarters, many of them very aged in terms of honeybee life span = general build up of viruses. That may be another reason why it is nearly impossible to requeen laying workers. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemintway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:52:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: Re: Colour Cordovan Dear Debbie, Yes, the Cordovan gene can be expressed in any honeybee, including the Carniolan. It appears as you described, a copper color. The color can vary through selection and some cordovan carniolans appear to be black, but if you look closely under a microscope you will see they are cordovan. I doubt you have a case of isolated breeding. The cordovan gene has been showing up more and more lately. If you purchased your carniolans some where down the line it most likely came with them, although it may not have been expressed at the time. I'm curious as to where you purchased your queens, if you did buy them. Sincerely, Joe Latshaw ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:09:46 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: POLLINATION RESULTS In a message dated 97-10-19 12:29:43 EDT, andy.nachbaur@calwest.net (Andy Nachbar) writes: << What ever your slant on the hype and misinformation still being passed like the wind on the reported the loss of all feral bees and much of the hive bee populations the facts seem to be the effect on agriculture has been limited as the 1997 crop reports come in for the year and all the bee, honeybee,(feral and hive) pollinated crops report record yields with Cranberries taking the dollar lead from the 1996 and 1997 billion dollar California almond crop. http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/harvest/harvest_cran.html >> Well Andy, we DO have fewer bees. But, I don't think the press understands that the terrible losses of the last couple winters were mostly restocked from the south. And we are using them much more intensively and effectively. Watermelon growers that used to quibble on price, then put 4 hives on a 50 acre field now don't quibble and they are putting 20 or 30 on that field. I understand from other beekeepers that the same effect is seen in other areas. I don't know much about the left coast, but here on the right coast, bees are migrating more than ever. I know of hives that pollinate four different crops in four different areas in the course of a year. Most of the commercial bees are, at least in part, migratory. And some of the few beekeepers who said they'd NEVER migrate, after the terrible winter losses two years ago, are migrating south for winter. We give the bees every chance we can, and they respond. Our bees were beautiful last spring. Our biggest problem was swarm control. We simply did not have enough equipment to take advantage of their power. I have tried for years to get some northern beekeepers to send down nuc boxes full of deep comb, during the winter. I'll put the frames into deep boxes and put them on my bees in March, letting the queens make lots of brood. Then in April we can split back into the nuc boxes, giving the northerner lots of bees with little work on his own comb, at an attractive price. So far I've had only a couple of small takers. We've learned a lot about making fewer bees do more work. As long as Apistan works, we can get our crops pollinated. Therein lies another question. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:28:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Harker Subject: Help... Dead Queen in October I have two hives, each with 2 deeps located in Northern, Illinois. They are in my back yard on a three acre, partially wooded site near a creek. Last Thursday, I was checking the hives and noticed a single dead bee with a large abdomon on the ground within a few inches of the landing board. Upon closer inspection, I recognized it as probably the Italian queen that was mother to this hive which was started from a 2 lb. package this past Spring. She was not marked nor clipped but was the same color and size. I had seen her about 5 times this year during inspections. The weekend before this, I had done a partial inspection of the hive bodies, checking for honey stores weight, adding MO to the top bars, and cleaning off burr comb. I had not pulled the frames out nor seen the queen during this brief inspection. I had not seen any queen cells either. So on Friday after finding the dead queen, I did a thorough inspection pulling all the frames out and carefully checking both sides. I did not find any other queen, I did not see any queen cells. There were not any eggs but there were a few cells in two frames with some young larvae (curled in a semi circle at the bottom of the cell). I am convinced that this hive is now queenless so I have ordered a new Starline queen from York, to arrive on Thursday or Friday this week. My problem is that is is very late in the year to be requeening. It is cold here, and the end of the laying season. I am wondering if anyone else has experience requeening this late in the year. Day temperatures are a high of 47 to 60 F. Nights are beginning to frost. I did notice that the hive still has a good supply of drones... they haven't been evicted yet. I had been feeding Sugar syrup and there are about 13 full deep frames of sugar/honey for the winter. I am afraid that if I hang the queen between frames in the queen cage, that she will be rejected and/or freeze over night. Should I attempt to introduce her by the shotgun method that I saw here? i.e. spray the bees and queen with sugar water scented with mint and let her loose? Comments/advice would be appreciated. Also, anyone think the MO killed her? I was applying a bead to each frame top bar and spreading it around with my finger so it was not very thick. Thanks, Tom in Rockford, Illinois ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:45:49 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! In-Reply-To: <344CEF48.99173180@interaccess.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Oct 97 at 13:07, Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: > short as possible" ended up riding in the back of the truck at 55 > mph for ? 2 miles came back and they attacked me again"the hive is > about 275 ft away" unable to remove my gear we left with me in the > back of the truck to go home,stopped 3 1/2 miles away removed my > gear and was stung a few more times :) this was on 10-19-97, I am > trying locate the invoice to find out what I bought as far as the > bees go.Did I do some thing wrong ? and any idea what type of bees I > own.?"I also counted somewhere in the area 150 + stingers in my > gloves and pants." But the honey is good.! My sincere condolences! To try requeening this one is going to be a real hazard. My advice, burn 'em! A hive as bad as this is going to take a lot of effort to calm them down, especially if your new queen is from the same source and possibly as bad as the first. My personal opinion, we are going to see more and more reports of this type as AHB genes become more prelevant in the breeding stock. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:35:08 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Rice Subject: Bee Venom Oral Dose Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi All, Can anyone tell me what is a safe (typical) dose of bee venom that can be taken orally and mix with say honey. Regards, Robert Rice. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Robert A. Roach" Subject: Re: Bumblebees Comments: To: Sid Pullinger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sid, Bumblebees are available in the U.S. for pollination. A company called = Bees West in Watsonville, CA is providing this service. They have a = license to use a European system, from Holland, I believe. They are = quite a bit more expensive than honeybees and their use has been mostly = in greenhouse-grown vegetables and other high-value crops. Some = research is being done on yield increases on strawberries when = bumblebees are used for pollination. If the AHB ever completely = disrupts pollination services (unlikely) then they may find some = customers like almond growers. The bumblebee is a more efficient = pollinator than Apis mellifera. They start earlier, work later and = visit more flowers per bee. They also "sonicate" or buzz the flowers = which releases more pollen.=20 They loaned me an observation hive a couple of years ago for a display I = was doing at the county fair. The process is all very secret. The bees = did not fly out of the hive and I fed them pollen and sugar syrup. It = was fascinating to watch them. Bob Roach Sid Wrote: ---------- From: Sid Pullinger[SMTP:SidPul@compuserve.com] Sent: Sunday, October 19, 1997 10:44 PM Subject: Bumblebees As a result of my letter on giant bumblebees and the follow-up I have received several requests for more information on rearing bumbles. = Beyond setting out artificial nesting sites around my garden I have very little knowledge of them and none when it comes to breeding them. I consulted = a commercial friend who supplies honey bees to greenhouse growers of early tomatoes and strawberries and he told me it is quite an industry in = Belgium and Holland and very much a trade secret. Apparently the skill lies in coaxing the queens to come out of hibernation early and start a colony = well in advance of normal. He reckons that growers in Britain import some 10,000 "nests" annually for early crops. I have seen one of these = "nests" at a convention some time ago. As I recall the bees come in a = cardboard box approximately 12 by 12 by 6 inches deep. There are two = compartments, one for the bees and one for food, sugar syrup and pollen. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:03:12 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Debbie Hutchings Subject: Re: Colour Cordovan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCDF3F.814BE660" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCDF3F.814BE660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe! I caught a wild swarm in May 1996. My grandfather had bees here about = 60 years ago and I'm 40 now and all my life these bees have been = swarming back and forth on our farm. Grandpa has been dead now since = 1982, but he always said that these were the bees that got away. To my = knowledge there is nobody else around here with bees, actually I'm = pretty certain. This August I caught another wild swarm in the same = tree beside the house that the first swarm landed in. I have raised all = my queens from the first swarm queen, with the exception of the second = swarm. I mark my queens and when I was checking them for the winter and = taking out apistain strips, I saw that 3 of my 25 hives had superseded = their queens and that these queens were Cordovan. When I read about the = genetics on this, I took, it that there had to be a gene present in both = the queen and the drones to make the recessive gene surface. Then I = thought that, to have that many queens have this colouring I must have = some inbreeding going on. I do have some jet black bees and the drones = are also black but they have very dark chocolate brown body hair, which = at a glance appears black. =20 Debbie p.s. When I first got on this list I had questions as to what kind of = bees I do have, because I have not seen any quite like them. But being = a new beekeeper I started to think that maybe I was making more of this = than what need be. But now there is this colour and I guess it just = puzzels me. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Latshaw [SMTP:Joe9999125@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 11:52 AM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Colour Cordovan Dear Debbie, Yes, the Cordovan gene can be expressed in any honeybee, including = the Carniolan. It appears as you described, a copper color. The color can = vary through selection and some cordovan carniolans appear to be black, but = if you look closely under a microscope you will see they are cordovan. I doubt = you have a case of isolated breeding. The cordovan gene has been showing up = more and more lately. If you purchased your carniolans some where down the = line it most likely came with them, although it may not have been expressed = at the time. I'm curious as to where you purchased your queens, if you did buy them. 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Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Debbie Hutchings Subject: Re: Bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mary, I really like my D.E Hive. It's light and very easy to handle, nothing = is stuck together, which means that my bees don't get all worked up = because they don't receive the jerks and bumps that the other bees get = when I'm prying their hives (the langs) apart. As soon as I can do it = I'm going to sell my Langs and buy more of these D.E. Hives. This hive = saves me time, and time is money. I also find that when I am checking = for swarm cells, I tend to kill a lot of bees by squeezing them, when = prying the frames apart and when you kill bees there tends to be a lot = of angry bees come to their funeral. With the D.E. I hardly ever kill = any bees. There is also more space per square inch, per frame for your = queens to lay eggs in which equals more bees per hive. I'd go for it!, = at least try one I'm sure you'll be impressed. Then I'm sure that the = ventilation in this hive helps the bees, because I've noticed that on = hot days the bees in the D.E. are not hanging around the entrance of the = hive like the other hives do. Debbie This answer is MY personal opinion.. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick & Mary Caldwell [SMTP:mpcenterprises@mci2000.com] Sent: Monday, October 20, 1997 12:24 AM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Bee space Hi Debbie... Saw your posting about the D.E. hive, and I'm very interested in how you feel about it, especially as a woman and a fairly new beekeeper. I am going to be starting bees in the spring, and would like your thoughts. Thanks in advance! Mary Caldwell Benicia, CA ---------- From: Debbie Hutchings To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Bee space Date: Friday, September 26, 1997 7:21 AM Hi Everyone! I tried one new hive this summer to see how it would work out, (if what was said about it claimed to be true). I am very excited about how it's been working out! At any time I can = open this hive and not have to pry or pull at it, to get anything apart. Frames come out by simply lifting them out without useing my hive tool. I'm not trying to advertise anything here... I'm just stating what I've found, seeing this tread is about bee space, bur comb, problems with everything stuck down. It maybe also contributed to that, the bees who = live there are not inclined to stick things together, but I personally think = it is due to the dementions of this hive. I'm going to use these hives = from here on, because it saves me much time, when going through and checking = on what the bees are up to. This hive is called the D.E. Hive and is, I think the brain child from = The Bee Works, here in Canada. Since this summer I have raised and expanded my hives from Two to twenty-five, and also sold four nukes. The other hives are all langs = which I find awkward compaired to this particular hive. Bee Good. Debbie from Canada... 2nd year bee keeper 25 hives and growing..... ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:29:18 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Help... Dead Queen in October MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Tom: Sorry to hear about your dead queen. I have been using MO in all my colonies and have not lost any queen(s) in any of the treated colonies. It is possible to kill bees with MO ( I have warned about that possibility) but you should not lose any by applying the oil in the form in which describe the application. The queen could have been balled by her own bees if they became stressed after one of your inspections or might even been injured during an inspection. I would disregard illnesses because you mentioned only the queen of two adjacent colonies. Should it be illness you would have seen dead workers and drones as well. I am curious. Please let me know if you notice any other signs. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read with interest this account of extremely aggressive bees. I personally have never encountered anything like this in my 25 or so years with the bees, and am amazed that a hive would be this aggressive. I assumed at first that Scott purchased a new package, but on rereading his post he really doesn't say where his original colony came from. I am quite surprised that smoke didn't have a calming effect. I wonder if many of you have read Kim Flottum's column in this month's Bee Culture magazine. In it he describes his experience in working with an AHB colony in Texas. He reports exactly the sort of bees that Scott has, although he took more precautions to guard against stings. Dave Eyre also posted to this thread on the risk of getting AHB stock from breeders. Incidentally, on the related topic of introducing and removing Apistan strips, this is what I do to make my entry to the hive as non-intrusive as possible: I put the strips in the lower of two hive bodies or the middle of three. I crack the hive bodies without removing the cover or inner cover, blow in a short puff of smoke, then tip the upper hive body up from behind (pull it back an inch or so to keep it from sliding forward off the stack), and while balancing the upper HB with one hand I slip the prefolded Apistan strips in place or remove them with the other hand, then with another puff of smoke to send bees back between the frames, I gently lower the HB back into place. It takes about a minute (maximum) per hive, with very minimal disruption. (However, I doubt if even this would have worked for Scott's hive.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:22:14 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Bees and Race Hi All As a beekeeper I have noticed that bees are very bigoted in who they sting. I keep a number of hives in places where they are near farm environments. This usually means that both black and white peolple will be near the bee hive. I have noticed thatt bees will sting black people who are fifty metres away, ignoring myself or a number of other white beekeepers I have spoken to. Interestingly enough, people of mixed origin, even with straightened hair still get zapped so there may be another factor. (I have also noticed that bees sting dogs and birds but not cats - hair type/feather typpe?) So, I have noticed that it appears to be curly hair among other aspects that triggers bees. But the interesting thing is, if this is an inherited response of african bees to their natural predator, african people, they technically are not seeing whites etc as a danger. Now in europe, a predator of bees for many years when the skep system was used was man. In areas where raiding a skep killed the bees such as the UK the bees are aggressive, and in areas where the climate allowed them to survive more they are less so, eg the italians. So, do european bees ignore black people and preferentially sting whites? Just a thought. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:44:16 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank & Phronsie Humphrey Subject: Re: Mineral Oil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I buy FGMO at Walgreen drugs. They sell sizes up to 1qt. Frank & Phronsie Humphrey beekeepr@cdc.net -----Original Message----- From: Paul Cronshaw, D.C. To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 11:29 PM Subject: Mineral Oil >Does anyone have a source or brand name for FGMO? > >Where so I look to buy this substance on the WEST COAST.? > > >Thanks. > > >Paul Cronshaw, D.C. >Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper >Santa Barbara, CA USA > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:26:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank & Phronsie Humphrey Subject: Re: Flavored honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know how this was made but I met some beekeepers that were producing a flavored honey product. They call it a honey product because it is not produced form nectar but flavored syrup and or fruit juices fed to the bees when there is no honey flow. I tried using fruit juices but they fermented before they were completely used by the bees. I have heard of some using Kool Aid and making a syrup which the bees will consume. I am told that this produces a very good product but they are being careful to call this a honey product since it is not true honey. Frank & Phronsie Humphrey beekeepr@cdc.net -----Original Message----- From: Keith E Amberson To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 05:38 PM Subject: Flavored honey >While in Eastern Washington last weekend I stopped at a huge fruit stand. > They had a honey-fruit juice product that was excellent. The >raspberry-honey was great but I loved the cranberry-honey, a good blend of >the sweetness of honey and the tartness of cranberries. It had the same >texture as honey. > >I sure would like to get a recipe for this product, I think it would be a >good product for our farm store. Any ideas to where I could get the recipe. > The National Honey Board couldn't help me. > >Thanks > >Keith Amberson >Amberson Farms >Everett Washington > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Edward Beary Subject: Re: Bees and Race MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:22 PM 10/23/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hi All > >As a beekeeper I have noticed that bees are very bigoted in who they >sting. You might be correct in thinking that there might have been some selective pressure on bees over that last few centuries to recognize man as a predator and attack before being attacked. From what I have read, bees in general tend to attack dark objects. This is not limited to humans. Bears and some smaller animals are predators in the US . If I am not careful what I wear in the bee yard, I get bothered by my bees. Red or dark colored clothing will entice more bees to buzz angrily around my head and sting the darker areas. I have a black watch band that gets nailed every time I wear it in the yard. The bees actually land on it and sting me through the holes. I do not dare to wear a brown felt hat near my bees or I will get attacked, yet I can walk up to the same hives without any protection or hat and have no problem with them. Bees rely on there sense of smell for identification of a variety of things. Besides the darker objects, I would think that the bees are responding to chemical cues to differentiate predators from other objects as well. I know that breathing on or blowing a bee off my hand can get some bees upset pretty quickly, especially when I have the hive cover off and pawing around doing routine inspections. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:17:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ben and Barbara Davis <103576.3374@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Black Gum Comments: cc: "Leber, Rick and Nancy" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A forester has identified several trees growing on my property as Black Gum Trees. Could anyone provide me with any information regarding the this type tree as a nectar source. If it is a honey producing tree, could anyone tell me how desirable the honey would be, the time of year it blooms, and any other available information. Thanks, Ben ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:01:39 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: claes horn Subject: SV: MAKING BEESWAX FOUNDATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The french company Thomas, or correctly "Ets THOMAS Fils" sell one hand mould, one hand cranked roller and one electric roller. You can order a catalogue from their homepage http://ourworld.compuserve.com. Ets THOMAS Fils, 86, rue Abbi Thomas, 45450 FAY-AUX-LOGES TEL.:(02) 38 59 56 20 FAX:(02) 38 59 28 28 Good luck! Claes Horn Kohagslyckan 3120 380 74 Lvttorp Sweden ---------- > Fren: Excerpts from BEE-L > Till: Bestofbee@systronix.net > Dmne: MAKING BEESWAX FOUNDATION > Datum: den 3 oktober 1997 13:26 > > From: Murray Reid > > I am looking for information on beeswax foundation making moulds or > machines. Need name and address of relevant companies, phone, fax, and > e-mail etc. > > Interested in hand moulds ( like waffle makers) or hand cranked rollers > (that imprint sheets of plain wax off dipping boards), or presses (sheet > of wax is sandwiched between 2 plastic embossing panels and is squeezed > through a ringer or set of plain rollers) as well as commercial > sheeting and embossing machines. > > Have information on rollers from Tom Industries in the US, Leaf moulds > from Steele and Brodie in Scotland, as well as the range of Hertzog > moulds and machines. > > Murray Reid > Ministry of Agriculture > Private Bag 3080 > Hamilton > New Zealand fax 64 7 838-5846 > > reidm@ruakura.mqm.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:54:03 -0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garth: Hopefully your diabetic customers do not asume that since you do not add sugar to your product, they are safe to eat it. Honey is in fact a type of sugar. I would want a reliable physician to determine how much, if any, could be safely consumed by any diabetic! Just my .02 c worth !! Eunice ---------- > From: Garth > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Honey Prices > Date: Friday, October 17, 1997 6:15 AM > > Hi All > > I find this honey price thread interesting. So far we have people > suggesting to sell at higher prices than in the store beecausee of > high quality. Others suggest sticking to reccommended prices. > > My philosophy is as follows: > > Our store price is about US$3.80 (it is going up fast because of > drought) per honey jar (approx 500g/a pound). If I sell to the store > I would get US$1.50 ish. So I sell at US$2.80 approximately, which > meeans people get a good product at less than thy would pay in the > stores. I sell to diabetics and guarantee no sugar in the honey (for > some reeason that is bad), so sell often up to 20 bottles a time. I > also sell to my student friends at the same prices. People just write > their nam onto a waiting list and they geet honey, cheapr and better > than any othr way. It is good natural unheated honey. People like the > aura of honey straight from the beekeepeer, and because I have a list > I just send an e-mail to everyone who wanted honey and they come and > get it. A good product at a good pric draws customers. > > Keeep well > > Garth > > --- > Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries > 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis > Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation > 6139 > Eastern Cape > South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 > > 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University > In general, generalisations are bad. > Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:38:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sue Slingsby Subject: honey for diabetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit honey is made up from different types of sugars -- depending upon plant sources --- nectars --- where would anyone in his right mind think that honey does not contain sugar????-- I can understand white refined sugar -- but chemically some simple organic chemistry will show that there are different types of "sugars" - glucose - fructose - galactose -- all are six carbon sugars C6-H12-O6 with different molecular structures- - and many more types of sugar - three carbon - - 5 carbon - well before I get too carried away -- depending upon nectary source -- honey is sugar with different molecular structure --- many diabetics cannot tolerate honey - sugars derived from nectar - depending upon plant environment will vary--- sorry I'll get off my band wagon... but do not be fooled into thinking honey does not have sugar in it..... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:28:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Walter T. Weller" Subject: Re: Bees and Race Garth - Here in Louisiana, my gentle bees, even if undisturbed, routinely will make unprovoked attacks on black workers as much as ten yards away. I have laid this to the highly-scented after-shave lotions that these individuals regularly use. I wonder if the black victims of your bees use similar cosmetics. I have noticed the same sort of "discrimination" with mosquitoes also. For example, a black man and I were building fences around the farm, both sweating like mules, and he was being eaten alive by mosquitoes while I was receiving hardly a bite. I remarked on this experience to a New Orleans physician who replied matter-of-factly that some individuals excrete certain B-vitamins in their perspiration, and that this repels mosquitoes. He said further that he had tried for years to find a way to apply this knowledge for the benefit of the public and his financial gain, but was totally unsuccessful. Note: my wife and our children do not share my mosquito-repelling characteristic. Recessive trait, perhaps, having nothing to do with black/white differences. Walter Weller Post Office Box 270 Wakefield, Louisiana 70784 On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:22:14 GMT+0200 Garth writes: >Hi All > >As a beekeeper I have noticed that bees are very bigoted in who they >sting. I keep a number of hives in places where they are near farm >environments. This usually means that both black and white peolple >will be near the bee hive. I have noticed thatt bees will sting black >people who are fifty metres away, ignoring myself or a number of >other white beekeepers I have spoken to. Interestingly enough, >people of mixed origin, even with straightened hair still get zapped >so there may be another factor. (I have also noticed that bees sting >dogs and birds but not cats - hair type/feather typpe?) > >So, I have noticed that it appears to be curly hair among other >aspects that triggers bees. But the interesting thing is, if this is >an inherited response of african bees to their natural predator, >african people, they technically are not seeing whites etc as a >danger. Now in europe, a predator of bees for many years when the >skep system was used was man. In areas where raiding a skep killed >the bees such as the UK the bees are aggressive, and in areas where >the climate allowed them to survive more they are less so, eg the >italians. > >So, do european bees ignore black people and preferentially sting >whites? Just a thought. > >Keep well > >Garth >--- >Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries >15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis >Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation >6139 >Eastern Cape >South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 > >3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University >In general, generalisations are bad. >Interests: Flii's and Bees. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Marlin (SCOTT) Kline" Subject: [Fwd: Very Agressive!!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appreciate your response,I did purchase the hive with the queen included,it was out of Alabama"Calvert Apiaries" it was a last minute purchase do to my poor timing of being late and not able to purchase a hive any where else. I did receive a phone call from Illinois Department Of Agriculture this morning and they are not able at this time to come and inspect my hive but they asked that I gather up a Hundred or so bees place them in a container with alcohol and send them and they will find out if they are africanized,But they feel they are not.I won't even express my feelings of why they are not able to inspect the hive.But I will keep in mind your process of the apistan strips. Ted Fischer wrote: > I read with interest this account of extremely aggressive bees. I > personally have never encountered anything like this in my 25 or so > years with the bees, and am amazed that a hive would be this > aggressive. I assumed at first that Scott purchased a new package, but > on rereading his post he really doesn't say where his original colony > came from. I am quite surprised that smoke didn't have a calming > effect. I wonder if many of you have read Kim Flottum's column in this > month's Bee Culture magazine. In it he describes his experience in > working with an AHB colony in Texas. He reports exactly the sort of > bees that Scott has, although he took more precautions to guard against > stings. Dave Eyre also posted to this thread on the risk of getting AHB > stock from breeders. > > Incidentally, on the related topic of introducing and removing Apistan > strips, this is what I do to make my entry to the hive as non-intrusive > as possible: I put the strips in the lower of two hive bodies or the > middle of three. I crack the hive bodies without removing the cover or > inner cover, blow in a short puff of smoke, then tip the upper hive body > up from behind (pull it back an inch or so to keep it from sliding > forward off the stack), and while balancing the upper HB with one hand I > slip the prefolded Apistan strips in place or remove them with the other > hand, then with another puff of smoke to send bees back between the > frames, I gently lower the HB back into place. It takes about a minute > (maximum) per hive, with very minimal disruption. (However, I doubt if > even this would have worked for Scott's hive.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: ajwelk@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Welk Subject: Re: SV: MAKING BEESWAX FOUNDATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit claes horn wrote: > > The french company Thomas, or correctly "Ets THOMAS Fils" sell one hand > mould, one hand cranked roller and one electric roller. You can order a > catalogue from their homepage http://ourworld.compuserve.com. > Ets THOMAS Fils, 86, rue Abbi Thomas, 45450 FAY-AUX-LOGES > TEL.:(02) 38 59 56 20 FAX:(02) 38 59 28 28 > Claes, I tried the home page you reference but it has nothing to do with bees, or foundation. It is a compuserve homepage of some type. Could you please check the URL and get back with us. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:34:55 -0600 Reply-To: rcanaday@ionet.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Canaday Subject: Re: SV: MAKING BEESWAX FOUNDATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks like the last part of the address is missing... try http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/APISERVICES Thanks for pointing me in in right direction. Nice site. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Bees and Race MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. Honey bees do not sting birds of any kind. Is it because bird feathers are "hinged" or "hooked" together, or is it because of the preening oil that the birds put on themselfves? Thoughts anyone? Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:32:58 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Bees and Race MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi friends. Regarding getting stung while wearing a watch: I seldom wear veil or globes to work my bees. I wear a bee suite and veil when I work with unknown source bees until I learn if they are aggressive. I NEVER wear a watch when working bees,whether the watch has a metalic or synthetic band. Sometimes I have forgotten and paid the consequences: the bees strike my arm with the watch! As soon as I remove the watch the bees stop stinging that arm. I think that the band is not the culprit, its the vibrating mechanism of the watch that makes them irritable. Might be worth testing it! Best regards. Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:52:48 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Bees and Race MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi friends: About colors and honey bees. Honey bees do not discriminate but they are highly selective. Colors reflect or absorb ultra violet light to which the honey bees react. This is a fact that Karl Von Frisch made known after intensive scientific research on the subject. And yes, insects do react to odors, aromas, essences, whatever! For the newbies: try a thorough wash with a mild non-aromatic soap before working your hives and get ready to experience the difference: no stinging! Of course it goes without saying, no banging, slapping, roughing of the equipment is part of the required technique for pleasure without stings. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:53:11 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: nelci pascual Subject: stingless bees Content-Type: text/plain HELLO , WE ARE WORKING ON STINGLESS BEES(Meliponinae).we wish to contact people interested in them.We are from Argentina , province of Misiones (South America).we work with specially interest in Tetragonisca angustula spp.Please send us your messages at E-mail:luisfernando1@hotmail.com,or nelci@hotmail.com thanks for all your attention!! THE MELIPONIKEEPERS ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: beesbest@ne.mediaone.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kathy Hough Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------28C10A79973C242579865373" --------------28C10A79973C242579865373 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marlin, Wow, I sympathize with with your experience with those B#*ch bees from Hell. Something similar once happened to Rick and I with some bees that we'd bought from another beekeeper and decided to pick-up and move at dusk on the evening immediately preceeding one heck of a thunderstorm, when no nectar was coming in, and they'd spent the first two months of the spring being ravaged by skunks ( we found out later that this was the main reason for the beekeeper breaking down this outyard). Is it possible that any of the above conditions may have existed when you took your honey?? Other reasons for grouchy defensive bees include: smells.. could you or your buddy have had on some aftershave or something with a smell that resembled pheromones that cause a defensive reaction from the bees (like citrus or banana smells?).. how about lots of stings still stuck in your beesuit or gloves from the last time you worked the bees?; queenlessness.. not likely given the population you described, and still possible; excessive thumping or banging the colony.. how did you clear the bees from the frames in the supers.. did you thump or bump? drop anything?; if you shook the bees from the frames or used any other method to remove bees from comb which puts alot of bees in the air which made them excited & defensive and/or made you or your buddy feel nervous, these could have caused an escalation in defensive behaviour; had either of you any alchohol on your breath?.. a couple other beekeepers & I have experienced that the bees seem to react to an alchohol smell (wondering whether it was just 'cuz I was clumsier after a beer, I tested this with alchoholly mouthwash, same result). Anyway, lots of things can make the girls angry. IMHO it's not necessarily a crash and burn hive . Requeening can be done without much difficulty, though at this late and broodless date, I'd wait until spring. Then if the bees survive, post to this group, or e-mail several of us and we can help you determine if the colony if queen-right, and recommend some techniques for getting such a colony to accept a queen.. this usually involves killing their old queen and waiting a day or two before introducing the new queen when they are beginning to raise their own replacement, and are therefore ready to accept a new queen. TTYL, Kathy Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: > Hello This the first time I have asked for someone's opinion with > there > experience with bees,not implying that it is not needed only that I > normally just read from the list and learn.This is my first year and > have one hive.I have two more setup for next year,anyway my question > is,I went to remove the honey super and install apistan strips in the > first and second deep supers,in removing the honey super I noticed > they > were very upset,I was using a smoker which only upset them more.A > friend > that was 50 ft away had been stung 4 times in this short period,he was > > was smart enough to get in the truck and stay there after removing the > > honey super the bees were attacking the truck in the since of bouncing > > off the windshield and door glass not to mention myself.Well once I > split the deep supers they in my opinion attacked me,they had swarmed > onto my body from my groin up to my neck it was almost impossible to > see > out of my veil,I installed the strips and placed the supers together > and > installed the cover in the process I received some where in the area > of > 35-40 stings-5-6 through my gloves and the rest in the back of my legs > > and my groin and at those points they seemed attack one general area > and > a few on my calves,I then walked away to try and remove my gear,no > luck > they followed and were still attacking"I am trying to make this short > as > possible" ended up riding in the back of the truck at 55 mph for ? 2 > miles came back and they attacked me again"the hive is about 275 ft > away" unable to remove my gear we left with me in the back of the > truck > to go home,stopped 3 1/2 miles away removed my gear and was stung a > few > more times :) this was on 10-19-97, I am trying locate the invoice to > find out what I bought as far as the bees go.Did I do some thing wrong > ? > and any idea what type of bees I own.?"I also counted somewhere in the > > area 150 + stingers in my gloves and pants." But the honey is good.! > > Lake County Illinois --------------28C10A79973C242579865373 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marlin,
Wow, I sympathize with with your experience with those B#*ch bees from Hell. Something similar once happened to Rick and I with some bees that we'd bought from another beekeeper and decided to pick-up and move at dusk on the evening immediately preceeding one heck of a thunderstorm, when no nectar was coming in, and they'd spent the first two months of the spring being ravaged by skunks ( we found out later that this was the main reason for the beekeeper breaking down this outyard).

Is it possible that any of the above conditions may have existed when you took your honey??  Other reasons for grouchy defensive bees include: smells.. could you or your buddy have had on some aftershave or something with a smell that resembled pheromones that cause a defensive reaction from the bees (like citrus or banana smells?).. how about lots of stings still stuck in your beesuit or gloves from the last time you worked the bees?;  queenlessness.. not likely given the population you described, and still possible; excessive thumping or banging the colony..  how did you clear the bees from the frames in the supers.. did you thump or bump? drop anything?;  if you shook the bees from the frames or used any other method to remove bees from comb which puts alot of bees in the air which made them excited & defensive and/or made you or your buddy feel nervous, these could have caused an escalation in defensive behaviour; had either of you any alchohol on your breath?.. a couple other beekeepers & I have experienced that the bees seem to react to an alchohol smell (wondering whether it was just 'cuz I was clumsier after a beer, I tested this with alchoholly mouthwash, same result).

Anyway, lots of things can make the girls angry. IMHO it's not necessarily a crash and burn hive .  Requeening can be done without much difficulty, though at this late and broodless date, I'd wait until spring. Then if the bees survive, post to this group, or e-mail several of us and we can help you determine if the colony if queen-right, and recommend some techniques for getting such a colony to accept a queen.. this usually involves killing their old queen and waiting a day or two before introducing the new queen when they are beginning to raise their own replacement, and are therefore ready to accept a new queen.

TTYL,
Kathy

Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote:

Hello  This the first time I have asked for someone's opinion with there
experience with bees,not implying that it is not needed only that I
normally just read from the list and learn.This is my first year and
have one hive.I have two more setup for next year,anyway my question
is,I went to remove the honey super and install apistan strips in the
first and second deep supers,in removing the honey super I noticed they
were very upset,I was using a smoker which only upset them more.A friend
that was 50 ft away had been stung 4 times in this short period,he was
was smart enough to get in the truck and stay there after removing the
honey super the bees were attacking the truck in the since of bouncing
off the windshield and door glass not to mention myself.Well once I
split the deep supers they in my opinion attacked me,they had swarmed
onto my body from my groin up to my neck it was almost impossible to see
out of my veil,I installed the strips and placed the supers together and
installed the cover in the process I received some where in the area of
35-40 stings-5-6 through my gloves and the rest in the back of my legs
and my groin and at those points they seemed attack one general area and
a few on my calves,I then walked away  to try and remove my gear,no luck
they followed and were still attacking"I am trying to make this short as
possible" ended up riding in the back of the truck at 55 mph for ? 2
miles came back and they attacked me again"the hive is about 275 ft
away" unable to remove my gear we left with me in the back of the truck
to go home,stopped 3 1/2 miles away removed my gear and was stung a few
more times :) this was on 10-19-97, I am trying locate the invoice to
find out what I bought as far as the bees go.Did I do some thing wrong ?
and any idea what type of bees I own.?"I also counted somewhere in the
area 150 + stingers in my gloves and pants." But the honey is good.!

              Lake County Illinois

   --------------28C10A79973C242579865373-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:25:28 -0400 Reply-To: beesbest@ne.mediaone.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kathy Hough Subject: Re: Black Gum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------17D9E07541E3F8FB17D6295F" --------------17D9E07541E3F8FB17D6295F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben and Barbara, If the Black gum identified is scientific name Nyssa sylvatica Marsh., you could have a pretty good honey producer on your hands. This tree is also known as Black Tupelo according to North American Trees, Fourth Edition by Richard J. Preston, Jr.. Cross referencing this to Plants And Beekeeping by F. N. Howes produced the following: "This tree, also from eastern North America, is famous as a honey producer in its native land and grows quite well in Britain but is not often cultivated. When in flower at Kew it appears to offer no attraction to bees and nectar has not been observed in the flowers. In the wild state it is found chiefly in swamps or moist situations. Possibly with this tree a light dry soil or else the climate of Britain does not favour nectar secretion." Seems like the answer is maybe, maybe not.. depends on soils and conditions where these particular trees are. Is there a local beekeeper's organization where you are? Seems like locals would know what is producing for them in your area. Good Luck, Kathy Ben and Barbara Davis wrote: > A forester has identified several trees growing on my property as > Black Gum > Trees. Could anyone provide me with any information regarding the > this > type tree as a nectar source. If it is a honey producing tree, could > anyone tell me how desirable the honey would be, the time of year it > blooms, and any other available information. > > Thanks, > Ben --------------17D9E07541E3F8FB17D6295F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben and Barbara,
If the Black gum identified is scientific name Nyssa sylvatica Marsh., you could have a pretty good honey producer on your hands.  This tree is also known as Black Tupelo according to North American Trees, Fourth Edition by Richard J. Preston, Jr..  Cross referencing this to Plants And Beekeeping by F. N. Howes produced the following:
"This tree, also from eastern North America, is famous as a honey producer in its native land and grows quite well in Britain but is not often cultivated. When in flower at Kew it appears to offer no attraction to bees and nectar has not been observed in the flowers. In the wild state it is found chiefly in swamps or moist situations. Possibly with this tree a light dry soil or else the climate of Britain does not favour nectar secretion."

Seems like the answer is maybe, maybe not.. depends on soils and conditions where these particular trees are. Is there a local beekeeper's organization where you are? Seems like locals would know what is producing for them in your area.

Good Luck,
Kathy

Ben and Barbara Davis wrote:

A forester has identified several trees growing on my property as Black Gum
Trees.  Could anyone provide me with any information regarding the this
type tree as a nectar source.  If it is a honey producing tree, could
anyone tell me how desirable the honey would be, the time of year it
blooms, and any other available information.

Thanks,
Ben

   --------------17D9E07541E3F8FB17D6295F-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:55:36 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John van Horn Subject: Elyria? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Steve Newcomb Greetings from an old Elyrian. I used to live down on Middle Avenue and Cleveland Street before moving to Cleveland and then here to Virginia. I assume that you are a beekeeper since I found your post on MP on Bee-L. I am still new at beekeeping, first year three hives 1 package and two swarms. How are those Indians doing? John van Horn Former Elyrian ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:07:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Verville Subject: bee joke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Subject: Bees >> >> >> One day, two bees are buzzing around what's left of a rose bush. >> "How's your summer been?" asks bee number one. >> "Not too good," says bee two. "Lotta rain, lotta cold. There >> aren't enough flowers, therefore not enough pollen." >> The first bee has an idea. "Hey, why don't you go down to the >> corner and hang a left? There's a bar mitzvah going on. Plenty >> of flowers and fruit." Bee two buzzes, "Thanks!" and takes off. >> An hour later, the bees bump into each other again. >> "How was the bar mitzvah?" asks the first bee. >> "Great!" replies the second. >> The first bee, however, notices a small circle on his friend's >> head, and inquires, "What's that on your head?" >> "A yarmulke," is the answer. "I didn't want them to think I was >> a wasp." >> >> >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:02:21 -0800 Reply-To: beeman@Alaska.NET Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom & Carol Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: Help... Dead Queen in October MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Harker wrote: > My problem is that is is very late in the year to be requeening. It is cold > here, and the end of the laying season. I am wondering if anyone else has > experience requeening this late in the year. Day temperatures are a high of > 47 to 60 F. Nights are beginning to frost. I did notice that the hive still > has a good supply of drones... they haven't been evicted yet. I had been > feeding Sugar syrup and there are about 13 full deep frames of sugar/honey > for the winter. > > I am afraid that if I hang the queen between frames in the queen cage, that > she will be rejected and/or freeze over night. Should I attempt to introduce > her by the shotgun method that I saw here? i.e. spray the bees and queen > with sugar water scented with mint and let her loose? Tom, Daytime temperatures of 47 to 60 degrees F. doesn't seem too extreme, especially if you have a fairly strong colony. The laying cycle might be some problem. I would suggest a flat cage that will fit between the frames in their normal position and feed. Even if you have to pull a frame or two to make room. Stores coming in makes a lot of difference in acceptance. If the bees don't seem to be be acting mormally around the cage let her stay in for another couple days. I really don't think it is too late, just will need a little extra effort. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@alaska.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:40:52 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: wd6esz Subject: Re: Bee Venom Oral Dose In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Robert, I have seen bee venom honey that recommends one teaspoon a day of the honey which is equivalent to one halv bee sting. Rich On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Robert Rice wrote: > Hi All, > > Can anyone tell me what is a safe (typical) dose of bee venom that can > be taken orally and mix with say honey. > > Regards, > > Robert Rice. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:05:19 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: bees and race Hi All I have really enjoyed all the replies on bees and race. As to the aftershave thing, most of the people I have seen being stung don't use any aftershave (Xhosa people don't usually need to shave much). I know other people from Zimbabwe and other areas who are also stuung regularily for no reason. I have seen bees not even near a beehive that bump into my girlfriends hair and sting her. The bees would just ignore me. An interesting thing here wouuld be to ask some of the Australian contributors how the bees down next door react to people of aborignal descent there? Curly hair? That would rule out a skin scent. Also on this topic, Walter you are from Louisiana, where a umber of people I would gather are of African descent. I am interested to know if anyone on this list is of such descent, and also if there are any unusual beekeepinng practises in the south. I know that here, often black people manipulate bees at night, with few to no stings and no gear. I usully use no gear other than a smoker and a screwdriver (loose my hihve tools all the time so don't bother with them anymore) but that is by day. Night time is bad as the bees crawl and I still cannot work out how people mannage to do this without gettinng even a few stings. On the colour thing, bees cannnot see black I would think. If they can see hair it will have the same UV spectra as fingernails and any hair. Feathers: bees kill birds more than anything else in my experience. This is becauuse their main predators are birds. I shot a fork tailed dronga the other day in fronnt of one of my hives were it was intimidatig the bees and before I could even get there it was covered in bees stinging it repetitively. I know of a farmer who had his whole chicken hutch (500 chickens) and a lot of duucks stung to death on a hot day when his dog accidentally ran into a beehive when they were playing a game. Also try using a feather as a bee brush! (ostritch feather drives them mad) I often work my hives wearig shorts and have noticed that if it is not a hot day I pick up three or four stings per hive on my legs. Evetually this means lonng pants muust be donned. But if it is hot and one is sweaty the hairs of ones leggs are not fluffy and the bees don't sting one. So my conclusionn is that bees are not really racist, they just don't like curly hair. Just my two cents. (Maybe will boost sales of dark and lovely hair straightener?) Garth PS any beekeepers from the america's who are of africann descet please drop me a mail message. I would be iterested to swop a few notes. --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:32:54 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: aggressive hive Hi All I do't want to sound silly here but I would think the easiest way of telling if a hive is africanised is to look at the cell size. Should be about 5mm for all african bees, whereas it varies for euuro bees but is usually a bit higher. Mine are about 4.3mm, which means that they dont draw the AHB foundation I buy too well so I use a ver small strip at the top of each frame. Onne can see the transition from the larger cells to the smaller cells as soon as they draw their own. So it would follow that a simple check for AHB would be to put a frame with only a strip of foundation in the middle of the brood nest annd see what the cell size is. AHB will be smaller, and noticeably so. I always cannot help marvelling at how few cells there are on a frame of EHB foundation. Another thing is that you may have Acacia cyclops/ Acacia longifolia flowering in your area. These flower in autumn and I have noticed my bees go ballistic when they are flowering becoming touchy irritable bees that will sting you for looking in their direction. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:43:58 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rett Thorpe Subject: Too late for Apistan? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have a confession to make, and a question to ask. the confession is; I have neglected my bees for the last few weeks. Now that I have gotten that off my chest I'd like to ask for forgiveness and ask my question. I haven't yet put Apistan on my hives, I want to but I'm wondering if it is too late. We had our first snow here last night (Salt Lake City area). I'm not so much worried about getting the strips in now, but I understand you should remove the strips in 6 weeks, and I have been told that by opening your hives in the winter you "break the cluster" and they may not recover. How bad would it be to just leave the strips in until spring? I have two hives. Each has two hive bodies. Do I put one strip in each hive body or one per hive? Any comments would be greatly appreciated? Thanks Rett Thorpe Salt Lake City, Utah First Year, Two Hives ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:21:52 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jon C Peacock Subject: Re: aggressive hive Good Day Garth, I'm new to e-mail, but have kept Euro (Italian and or Carniolans), bees in 6 to 16 hives. We are called hobby beekeepers. I am 66 years old. I have been the Secretary to our state Bee Keeping Association for 3 years and Treasurer to local association for 6 years. Began keeping Euro bees in 1983. My home is in North America, lower south eastern United States of America in the state of Georgia, some where the middle of the state. The reason I have written to you the above is, I have an eager desire to know: many many things about South Africa, other than than the foolish things I learned watching 1930's & 1940's Tarzan, (Tarzan of the Apes, by A. Conan Doyle) films at the local cinema. From what I have read on the Bee-List these last 3 weeks, you seem to be willing to express an opinion or talk. I will confin comments to beekeeping. [1] What type of hive do you use? We use the Langstroth hive. I read about the "Half barrel hive" said to be used in Africa. The periodicals read are the 'American Bee Journal' or 'Gleanings in Bee Culture'. At my age, I've learned; believe nothing you hear, half of what you see and one tenth of what you read. And then I look at it from the 4 directions. [2] Human sweat, beer on the breath, some perfumes, old stings in clothing, and fuzzy dark (animal like) watch bands or socks or dog odor and some animal odors will make a hive go ballistic. I have attended to hive in pastures of horses and cows and in the heavy wooded areas with a lot of wild deer, with little or no problem. Often a cow will turn over a hive, scratching her hide, I suppose. Bears are a big problem in the mountains north of me. 12 years ago a bear laid waste to my bee yard in the South Carolina. Skunks are attacked on sight. Bees attacking a bird is a new thing to me. We have birds that eat bees, but not on a constance daily basis. How large is this bird, the ? . Sorry, I've lost your earlier e-mail and don't know the name of the bird. [3] Bees attacking a particular race of humans? Not in my experience, be they of Euro, African, Spanish, Native North Americans or Native Indians of Mexico. The Italians and Carniolans sting us all with a particular fury at times, and not at all when the weather is hot, bright sun and the bees are foraging. [4] Did I mis read? You work AHB without a veil. Stings on the legs, arms or upper body, I don't mind, I keep the away from my face -- :-) 99 percent of the time. [5] In the states, we aren't allowed to keep the AHB. To do so would remove a large amount of American dollars from the pocket. Therefor we are unable to compare AHB cells against our Italian cells. Best regards. Jonsea ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "William Nelson@Aol.Com" Subject: Re: honey for diabetics Honey is not safe for people on sugar restricted diets. Honey has many types of sugars in it and those folks who must limit sugar intake should consult with their physician before using it or substituting it for sugar. Apiarist AKA: Bill Nelson North Liberty, IN. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:32:07 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Too late for Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Label instructions for Apistan state 1 strip for every 5 frames that are occupied by the bees. This is a bit grey. On a warm day (not too many of those left) bees in my hives will occupy all frames in both hive bodies. However, when the bees are clustered there are some frames that aren't occupied. Furthermore, I have no idea on which frames the bees will cluster when the strips are in the hives. In other words, guess. Take a swag (scientific wild ass guess) where the bees will cluster. In most of my colonies I used 3 strips, two in the bottom box symmetrically centered three frames in from each side and one in the top box usually between the middle frames. My swag is based on the assumption that for the period that the strips are in, my bees will cluster more or less symmetrically in the center of the space inside of a double brood chamber hive and the cluster size will approximate the size of a basketball. If my bees swag differently then I will have less than optimal placement, but the world won't come to an end. Regarding leaving the strips in until spring, it's counter to label instructions, which I guess is a violation of the law and makes "strip leavers" criminals (requesting Pollinator's response to this statement). It is also suggested that such misuse of the product can lead to Apistan resistance. I have heard confessions from mentoring beekeepers speaking to my beekeeping association that they have left strips in their hives because they found it too inconvenient to take them out in early/mid winter. As far as breaking the cluster, you should be able to get the hive open and strips out quickly enough that the impact will be minimal if not negligible. This is not a criticism directed at Rett, but I am always amazed when people read the product label instructions and they turn around and ask if they can use the product in a manner inconsistent with the label. The answer is yes you can, but every action has it's consequences. Again the world won't end, but there is a price. Perhaps the price is you have fluvalinate build up in your brood combs. Perhaps the price is varroa becomes resistant to Apistan. Perhaps the price is you feel a little guilty and nothing more. But the label instructions state what they state. Anything outside of what is stated is a misuse of the product, period. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:27:16 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollinator Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: honey for diabetics Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-10-24 08:35:59 EDT, slinger@cablelan.net (Sue Slingsby) writes: << but do not be fooled into thinking honey does not have sugar in it..... >> I couldn't tell you how many times an admitted diabetic has asked me, "Can I eat honey?" I ALWAYS tell them to check with their doctor and follow his/her instructions! Honey is not the same as table sugar, but it IS sugar. It would be easy to get into a real liability mess. It's much safer to refer that question. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:31:11 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jon C Peacock Subject: Re: Too late for Apistan? Rett, Good day to you. No it isn't too late. Install 2 Apistan strips, Now! A vegetable grease pattie about the size of a large Mac, 3/16" thick would be helpful as well. (G) :-) I have spoken to Saint Anthony, (patron saint of beekeepers), in your behalf, and he say you gotta get on with it. Oh! He also say, "Tell that boy to read everything he can get his hands on about bees, and ask questions. Don't believe every thing you read, 1/2 of what you see and doubt every thing you hear. You have to find what works for you in bee keeping or life. Seriously. To install the Apistan strips. Move the box above the brood box about 1" to the rear. You must decide which of the deep boxes has the greatest concentration of bees. Work quickly, quietly and very little banging or knocking. From the rear, lift the moved box up just enough to allow you to insert two strips in between frames in the center of the hive. Three frames apart. Lay the pattie in the center on the top bars. Return every thing to its place. Remove the Apistan strip 45 to 60 days BEFORE your honey flow. You just might cause the cluster to tighten up, but unless you leave them exposed for a few minutes to a cold blowing wind, every thing should return to normal shortly. A cold weather bee cluster is an interesting thing. Old bees can handle cold better that young. Young bees prefer the cluster center whereas the older bees prefer the outer mantle. The cluster moves like a balloon being inflated/deflated. The key to this manipulation is to plan every step of what you have to do. See it in your mind, and play it over and over until it WILL happen as you see it. Works for me! Best Regards, JonC Peacock ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank & Phronsie Humphrey Subject: Re: Black Gum Comments: To: beesbest@ne.mediaone.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01BCE072.C87C1580" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BCE072.C87C1580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had hoped that someone else would comment on this tree. I have always = heard that it was a good source of nectar but I have never seen bees on = the trees in my area of Tennessee USA. It may bee that there are other = sources such as clover that are attracting the bees at the of bloom. A bit of trivia. Small blackgum twigs were cut to about 6 to 8' in = length and used for tooth brushes until as late as the 1940s. The end = of the twig was slightly chewed and the resulting bristles were then = used as a brush. Frank & Phronsie Humphrey=20 beekeepr@cdc.net -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Hough To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Black Gum =20 =20 Ben and Barbara,=20 If the Black gum identified is scientific name Nyssa sylvatica = Marsh., you could have a pretty good honey producer on your hands. This = tree is also known as Black Tupelo according to North American Trees, = Fourth Edition by Richard J. Preston, Jr.. Cross referencing this to = Plants And Beekeeping by F. N. Howes produced the following:=20 "This tree, also from eastern North America, is famous as a honey = producer in its native land and grows quite well in Britain but is not = often cultivated. When in flower at Kew it appears to offer no = attraction to bees and nectar has not been observed in the flowers. In = the wild state it is found chiefly in swamps or moist situations. = Possibly with this tree a light dry soil or else the climate of Britain = does not favour nectar secretion."=20 Seems like the answer is maybe, maybe not.. depends on soils and = conditions where these particular trees are. Is there a local = beekeeper's organization where you are? Seems like locals would know = what is producing for them in your area.=20 =20 Good Luck,=20 Kathy=20 =20 Ben and Barbara Davis wrote:=20 =20 A forester has identified several trees growing on my property as = Black Gum=20 Trees. Could anyone provide me with any information regarding = the this=20 type tree as a nectar source. If it is a honey producing tree, = could=20 anyone tell me how desirable the honey would be, the time of = year it=20 blooms, and any other available information.=20 Thanks,=20 Ben =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BCE072.C87C1580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had hoped that someone else would = comment on=20 this tree.  I have always heard that it was a good source of nectar = but I=20 have never seen bees on the trees in my area of Tennessee USA.  It = may bee=20 that there are other sources such as clover that are attracting the bees = at the=20 of bloom.
 
A bit of trivia.  Small blackgum twigs were cut = to about=20 6 to 8' in length and used for tooth brushes until as late as the = 1940s. =20 The end of the twig was slightly chewed and the resulting bristles were = then=20 used as a brush.
 
Frank & Phronsie Humphrey
beekeepr@cdc.net
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Kathy Hough <beesbest@ne.mediaone.net>=
To:=20 BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU=20 <BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU>Date:=20 Thursday, October 23, 1997 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Black = Gum

Ben and Barbara,
If the Black gum = identified is=20 scientific name Nyssa sylvatica Marsh., you could have a pretty good = honey=20 producer on your hands.  This tree is also known as Black = Tupelo=20 according to North American Trees, Fourth Edition by Richard = J.=20 Preston, Jr..  Cross referencing this to Plants And = Beekeeping=20 by F. N. Howes produced the following:
"This tree, also = from=20 eastern North America, is famous as a honey producer in its native = land and=20 grows quite well in Britain but is not often cultivated. When in = flower at=20 Kew it appears to offer no attraction to bees and nectar has not = been=20 observed in the flowers. In the wild state it is found chiefly in = swamps or=20 moist situations. Possibly with this tree a light dry soil or else = the=20 climate of Britain does not favour nectar secretion."=20

Seems like the answer is maybe, maybe not.. depends on soils and=20 conditions where these particular trees are. Is there a local = beekeeper's=20 organization where you are? Seems like locals would know what is = producing=20 for them in your area.=20

Good Luck,
Kathy=20

Ben and Barbara Davis wrote:=20

A forester has identified several trees = growing=20 on my property as Black Gum
Trees.  Could anyone = provide me=20 with any information regarding the this
type tree as a = nectar=20 source.  If it is a honey producing tree, could
anyone = tell me=20 how desirable the honey would be, the time of year it =
blooms, and=20 any other available information.=20

Thanks,
Ben

   = ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BCE072.C87C1580-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Faith Andrews Bedford Subject: Re: Bee space In a message dated 97-10-23 13:26:22 EDT, you write: << As soon as I can do it I'm going to sell my Langs and buy more of these D.E. Hives. >> Debbies raving about D.E. hives makes me want to know more about them. Did I miss a thread? Where can I read about them? See diagrams? Find who sells them? Thanks for the info. Faith Andrews Bedford ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:32:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Debbie Hutchings Subject: Re: Bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCE089.C4AC5160" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE089.C4AC5160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Faith!=20 I found the web site one night when I was looking for information on the = honey bee. The address is http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks/ Hope this = helps. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: Faith Andrews Bedford [SMTP:FAITHAB@aol.com] Sent: Friday, October 24, 1997 2:19 PM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Bee space In a message dated 97-10-23 13:26:22 EDT, you write: << As soon as I can do it I'm going to sell my Langs and buy more of these D.E. Hives. >> Debbies raving about D.E. hives makes me want to know more about them. = Did I miss a thread? Where can I read about them? See diagrams? Find who = sells them? Thanks for the info. 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The menthol pellets were dissolved in melted Crisco and the mixture was soaked up in a roll of shop grade paper towels. One towel was placed in the top of each hive. I will not know until spring how effective this treatment is, but I did make an interesting observation a week or two later. The temperature is quite cold now ( -2C to +7C ) but, since my hives are insulated above, the bees generated enough heat to vaporise the menthol. The inner covers, however, were cold enough to cause the menthol vapor to recrystallize in long thin needles on the lower surface. On checking unused towels with a magnifier, one can see the menthol has recrystallized there in very tiny needles. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:07:48 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: aggressive hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I know this is grievously off-topic, but I must protest "Tarzan of the Apes" being attributed to Conan Doyle. It was in fact written by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Being a fan of The Great Detective, I couldn't let this insult go uncorrected....;) Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 11 colonies and counting -----Original Message----- From: Jon C Peacock To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: October 24, 1997 7:25 AM Subject: Re: aggressive hive >things I learned watching 1930's & 1940's Tarzan, (Tarzan of the Apes, by >A. Conan Doyle) films at the local cinema. > Best regards. Jonsea > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Too late for Apistan? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jon C Peacock To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: October 24, 1997 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Too late for Apistan? > (G) :-) I have spoken to Saint Anthony, (patron saint of beekeepers), Actually, isn't Saint Ambrose our patron saint? >in your behalf, and he say you gotta get on with it. Oh! He also say, >"Tell that boy to read everything he can get his hands on about bees, and >ask questions. Don't believe every thing you read, This last line applies doubly to this list...;) Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 11 colonies and counting ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:44:38 +0200 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pintilie marian Organization: - Subject: Re: Bee books FAQ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr Krell I am Costel Pintilie from Romania and I help My brother in his intention to grow a Honey business. One of my duties is to gather as much information i can. > "Value-added products from beekeeping". Published by FAO/UN as its > Agricultural Service Bulletin vol. 124 in 1996. When I saw that such book exist I knew that will be of a great help for us. The fact that is free (for us those living this painful economic transition is very good. Really would be hard to pay fr book, if we consider that it's price is equivalent of a average salary for a month) made me to try to get it. Unfortuately the book is only 34 % free. because FAO is short of funds , and obvious since was spent so money with printing , user must pay. Even at discount rate we cannot afford the investment. (that will be possible when we'll have profit, but then i think that the information will be no more useful :) ) > but since I have no > commercial gain from the sale of the book and since it has been very > favorably reviewed in parts of the British beekeeping world a > So, since you do not receive any copyrights ( except thanks from those who use the informations), I dare to ask you something. If you have the book in electronic format, and if you are not tied by any contract to share it, we will be indebded if you will forward to us. Even you are not allowed to share your book, we'd like to receive at least an detailed contents, or the chapter about processng an marketing, as a form of advertising. If we will find useful, maybe in future will make the effort to buy the book . Sincerely yours Costel Pintilie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:37:16 -0700 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Apistan over winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do not know why apistan is left on for as little or as long as it is, but would guess that it is on long enough for two complete brood cycles. This way it interrupts the life cycle of varroa by killing the newly emerged mites as well as those alive when the strip is applied and does it over the two cycles. I don't know the half life of apistan in strip form, but it seems that-in cold climates- if you left the strips in the lower hive body over winter and removed them when you rotated hive bodies in the spring, you would do no harm and probably some good. The bees would only be in contact with the strips during the fall and early winter and would migrate up and away from them as the winter wore on. By early spring, they would be in the upper body and away from the strips. The strips would do the most good, because they would be present during the time the queen stops laying which further harms the varroas ability to survive since there is no brood and all are exposed. And they would not be in contact with the bees much more than a month or two more than the instructions. Problem with what I postulated is that you would have to put the strips on late in the year to keep close to the lable instructions. You really want to knock down the varroa in late summer so the bees have had a few brood cycles to have healthy, varroa free bees go into the winter. Anyway, its a thought. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:57:06 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Thanks to Betty McAdam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I for one, have read and learned from the postings from Betty McAdam. I want to say thanks very much Betty for the detailed information you have given to this first year Irish Beekeeper and look forward to learning more from you in the future. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Too late for Apistan? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. You are correct, Ian. St. Ambrose, French saint and patron of beekeepers. Best regards. Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:40:43 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: Bees and Race Comments: To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net In-Reply-To: <344FCDB1.130BD1CE@norfolk.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:20 PM 10/23/97 -0400, \\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: >Honey bees do not sting birds of any kind. Is it because bird feathers >are "hinged" or "hooked" together, or is it because of the preening oil >that the birds put on themselfves? >Thoughts anyone? In hyping the Killer Bee's the first find in California years ago was blamed for killing birds. A Raven or a big black bird was said to be the target at the time. Also a few years ago one of the so called "news" networks made a trip to Mexico to film the so called "killer" bees in action and aired a few bites of bees swarming out of a hive an mass attacking a chicken. As luck would have it I taped that show to play for a group of beekeepers. The rest of the story was that again by luck when showing this tape someone wanted to re-run the part with the chicken and I stopped frame. Believe it or not the chicken was tethered by a string in front of the bee hive and it became clear this film was one of many set-ups made to hype the so called killer bees. Later on I had a chance to talk with some of the "workers" who were part of these rip offs and was told as how they would go out to the bee yard that was going to visited that day and make sure that the bees would be ready when the film crews and visitors arrived. They did everything you could think of to put the bees on the tooth like ripping off the tops and supers and slamming them back down so by the time the visitors arrived the bees were ready to attack the first person who moved or made any attempt to open a hive no matter how much care and smoke was used. I won't mention any names of the so called BS (bee scientists) involved since they are still alive someplace. IMHO, ttul, the OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:31:22 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Bees and Race MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good work Andy. As usual you are right on the money. Thanks for the info. Apart from the AHB "attack everything in sight" syndrome, I have been under the general impression that bees are unable to penetrate bird feathers, hence some birds eat a good share of bees without getting harmed by the bees. Thanks for your informative clip with the "news makers." Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:03:12 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: E-mail address needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry to bother this list but I need the e-mail address for Kona Queens. Thanks Paul Cronshaw DC Cyberchiro Hobby beekeeper in Santa Barbara CA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:53:12 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Cell size re-visited. In-Reply-To: <2581D6A4E09@warthog.ru.ac.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Oct 97 at 11:32, Garth wrote: > I do't want to sound silly here but I would think the easiest way of > telling if a hive is africanised is to look at the cell size. Should > be about 5mm for all african bees, whereas it varies for euuro bees > but is usually a bit higher. Mine are about 4.3mm, which means that > they dont draw the AHB foundation I buy too well so I use a ver > small strip at the top of each frame. Onne can see the transition I had just got off the phone talking with someone in Arizona on this very subject of cell size when I received the above from Garth. They stated a correlation between cell size and Varroa infestation. It seems they are putting Euro bees in smaller cell foundation and not treating Varroa with any chemicals or medication. Could the AHB foundation and smaller cell size be the answer? But the Garth says that his Euro bees don't draw the foundation too well, meaning I suppose that our bees need larger cells? Discussion please! ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:48:23 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: More on Crisco and menthol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >This fall I used a mixture of Crisco and menthol to treat for tracheal >mites. The menthol pellets were dissolved in melted Crisco and the mixture >was soaked up in a roll of shop grade paper towels. One towel was placed >in the top of each hive. > >I will not know until spring how effective this treatment is, but I did >make an interesting observation a week or two later. The temperature is >quite cold now ( -2C to +7C ) but, since my hives are insulated above, the >bees generated enough heat to vaporise the menthol. The inner covers, >however, were cold enough to cause the menthol vapor to recrystallize in >long thin needles on the lower surface. On checking unused towels >with a magnifier, one can see the menthol has recrystallized there in very >tiny needles. > > > >Donald Aitken >11710-129 Street >Edmonton Alberta Canada >T5M 0Y7 We used melted menthol mixed in Crisco (thick stuff-hydrogenated I think) and applied it on the top bars this fall. Also used straight Crisco as we supered and earlier in the Spring. Diana Summataro(excuse the spelling)outlined in her research(from Ohio State University?)that constant exposure to oils were necessary to control Treacheal Mites. Perhaps the oils may give some control to Varroa too. We are going to try the FGMO next year applied with paper towels over the brood nest and let the bees chew up the towels and drag the bits through the hive. It may only take the smallest amount of oil to kill even Varroa. Another thought is to mix melted menthol with FGMO . My idea on the practical side: Pour about a gallon of FGMO in a 5 gallon bucket and set 3 bundles of the brown paper dispenser towels(available at institutional supply stores by the case) on end in the bucket. Let it soak up into the towels. Apply one or two on top of the broodnest. Kirk *Kirk Jones/ Sleeping Bear Apiaries /971 S. Pioneer Rd./Beulah,MI 49617 *Sharon Jones/ BeeDazzled Candleworks /6289 River Rd./ Benzonia, MI 49616 e-mail b-man@aliens.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:51:48 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: africa and bees > From: Jon C Peacock > Subject: Re: aggressive hive Hi Jon Thanks for the nice repply to my post. Jon mentioned he would be interested to know the following: > or talk. I will confin comments to beekeeping. [1] What type of hive do > you use? We use the Langstroth hive. I read about the "Half barrel > hive" said to be used in Africa. The periodicals read are the 'American > Bee Journal' or 'Gleanings in Bee Culture'. We use the Langstroth as pretty much the standard, with most of the people I know keeping a single deep as a brood box, and a shallow super arrangement. Ten frames brood and eight or nine in the super. There are two types of bees in SA, the Cape bee and the Transvaal bee. The transvaal bee is the one invading the US at present. Here it is the best producer of the two. Cape bees are not very keen on building up, so they run roughly the same size brood nest the whole year given then chance (give or take a frame or two) - in other words if you keep them near stuff that is flowering they keep laying. Apparently the Transvaal bees are more prone to building up. As a result I can get by without using an excluder as the queen stays in the brood box on her own. Rural beekeeping projects have as far as I know tried to get rural black communities mainly to set up simple top bar hives, but these areas are not prone to success and usually as soon as the persone who was 'teaching' leaves the hives fall to pieces and are stolen etc. (The brood nest makes a nice beer) Further North in Zimbabwe there is more rural beekeeping, but this is with the transvaal bee which is able to defend itself. Commercial beekeepers are also quite well developed there with a large pollination industry and excelent honey yields. I have a friend who used to keep bees there and she mentions getting as many as eight supers (shallows) per hive in a flow, and they get a number of good flows depending on el nino and so on. They also use mainly langstroth and many people use two brood boxes during buildup. The main honey producing plants here are the eucalyptus species (saligna plantations), sunflowers and lucerne (that I know of). I think that up in Kenya and Uganda there is quite a bit of beekeeping on a rural basis in what I remember being called a Ethiopian Long .... hive, which I gather has been adapted for community projects. I think this has been successful in some places like Botswana. (We are talking very large distance here though. Because of the projection on maps it is easy to think that africa is quite small, but for scale it is about 2000km (1000 or so miles) from my town to Harare the capital of Zimbabwe and quite a few thousand more to Nairobi (Kenyan Capital) and the infrastructure is only really worth speaking about to the Zimbabwe Border. From there on it is darkest africa and we hear little about it. Bees apparently contribute about US$500 000 to the local economy in terms of the fruit industry. (I got that of a poster from the University of the Western Cape that is launching a big programme to classify all the bee viruses affecting south african/southern african bees) >At my age, I've learned; > believe nothing you hear, half of what you see and one tenth of what you > read. This is a great policy! And then I look at it from the 4 directions. [2] Human sweat, > beer on the breath, some perfumes, old stings in clothing, and fuzzy dark > (animal like) watch bands or socks or dog odor and some animal odors will I have only ever noticed the fluffy socks thing of these as well as the dog odor. (My rottweilers and ridgeback hate bees and vice versa) > make a hive go ballistic. I have attended to hive in pastures of horses > and cows and in the heavy wooded areas with a lot of wild deer, with My bees occasionally sting the cows nearby. Makes the udders look a bit funny, so I have to herd them away when I work the bees on two of my sites. > little or no problem. Often a cow will turn over a hive, scratching her > hide, I suppose. Bears are a big problem in the mountains north of me. > 12 years ago a bear laid waste to my bee yard in the South Carolina. We have a similar problem but with baboons. they lift the lid of and run. I don't know why, but I have wathced it happen and it is hilarius to watch. My trick is just to put a really big rock on the hive, and they banging gets the bees cross and the baboon goes before the lid is of. > Skunks are attacked on sight. Bees attacking a bird is a new thing to > me. We have birds that eat bees, but not on a constance daily basis. > How large is this bird, the ? . Sorry, I've lost your earlier e-mail and > don't know the name of the bird. The main bird is called a Fork Tailed Dronga, which in Afrikaans is called a 'byevreter' which means bee eater and Xhosa an Ubu.... which I gather means a thing which sits on swarms.( An Ubu is a swarm - ubu interestingly enough means 'working together') The bird is about the size of a european starling or a fat canary. It is extremely agile eating queens and drones out of preference, but also eating bees. It catches a bee and then checks to see what it is. If it is a worker it will land on a tree branch nearby and will scrape the sting out on a branch and eat the bee. The problem here is that the birds sit on the hive box in the winter when they cannot spare enough bees to mount an attack and then it eats workers as they come in, getting the nectar as well. If a worker get's by it puts out a fear pheremone and the hive just shuts down, so one looses about two hours of foraging on each end of the day. This is bad as there is a good honey flow in winter from the eucalyptus and aloes and so on. I think the dronga is one of the reasone our bees have evolved the ability of a laying worker to lay worker eggs. (big problem) As soon as it is warm enough the drongas move away to the trees and eat foragers, as if they come near the hive they are shredded. Doves also get attacked bu I have never seen a dove eating a bee. Honey guides are not attacked, I don't know why though. > when the weather is hot, bright sun and the bees are foraging. [4] Did I > mis read? You work AHB without a veil. Stings on the legs, arms or upper > body, I don't mind, I keep the away from my face -- :-) 99 percent of the It depends on the hive, but yes, most of the time I can get away withoug a veil. Our bees are not true AHB though and are quite gentle. I hate weating a suit as it is hot and I fear for my life more from falling of scaffolding when removing a hive than from the bee stings. As a result I can often work a hive, including the brood nest without a suit (only a smoker) having learnt from trial and error how to tell if the bees are cross. The errors mean I have at present got 36 little red dots on my hands from a hive that had a sticky lid. > time. [5] In the states, we aren't allowed to keep the AHB. To do so > would remove a large amount of American dollars from the pocket. > Therefor we are unable to compare AHB cells against our Italian cells. I think it would be the easiest way of checking though if you think you may have an AHB colony as the cells are much smaller. Anyhow, once again thanks. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:34:43 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: honey for diabetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aloha Sue your posting makes me believe that you know a lot about which you are saying about the make up of sugar and honey.I try to learn more about bees and honey everyday. If you could supply more details and areas for research I would appreciate your efforts. If you come to Hawaii include the big island named Hawaii and come visit. Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton hihoney@ilhawaii.net 808-964-5401 Hale Lamalani { House of Heavenly Light } {Hawaii Std. Time} Bed & Breakfast www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm Hawaiian Honey House { Beekeepers & Honey Packers } 100 % HAWAII HONEY www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm 27-703 A. Ka`ie`ie Rd., Papa`ikou, Hawaii 96781 " ALOHA ALL " " The Beehive, the Fountain of Youth and Health " ---------- > ..... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Walter T. Weller" Subject: Re: Thanks to Betty McAdam Hear, hear! I have benefitted from Betty's sage and well-written advice, too Thanks, Betty. On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:57:06 +0100 Computer Software Solutions Ltd writes: >Hi All > >I for one, have read and learned from the postings from Betty McAdam. >I want >to say thanks very much Betty for the detailed information you have >given to >this first year Irish Beekeeper and look forward to learning more from >you >in the future. > >Sincerely > >Tom Barrett Walter Weller Post Office Box 270 Wakefield, Louisiana 70784 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:22:58 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: "Baby Nuclei" (old beekeeping book) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I wonder whether someone on the list has available an old beekeeping book entitled "Baby Nuclei". The author was Eugene Pratt and the book was published in 1904 by the A.I. Root Co. I would appreciate very much letting me know if the person who owns it would be willing to photocopy the whole book and send it by mail to me. O= ff course I will pay in advance the cost of the copy and the air mail expens= e. Thanks beforehand for your attention. Mart=EDn Braunstein Malka Caba=F1a Ap=EDcola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:58:29 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: cell size discussion In-Reply-To: On Friday, David Eyre responded to my post about cell size and african bees. > On 24 Oct 97 at 11:32, Garth wrote: > > I do't want to sound silly here but I would think the easiest way of > > telling if a hive is africanised is to look at the cell size. Should > > be about 5mm for all african bees, whereas it varies for euuro bees > > but is usually a bit higher. Mine are about 4.3mm, which means that > > they dont draw the AHB foundation I buy too well so I use a ver > > small strip at the top of each frame. One can see the transition > > I had just got off the phone talking with someone in Arizona on this > very subject of cell size when I received the above from Garth. They > stated a correlation between cell size and Varroa infestation. It > seems they are putting Euro bees in smaller cell foundation and not > treating Varroa with any chemicals or medication. Could the AHB > foundation and smaller cell size be the answer? Firstly I think this is a great bit of research! I think that this is probably due to the fact that the bees thus born are going to go through a more rapid metamorphosis. I do not know this, but would think that a fastidious hive would clean any mites out of uncapped brood cells, hence the only time the varroa could multiply would be when it was in the capped cell. As the natural host of Varroa jacobsonii is the asian cavity nesting bee, Apis cerana, which is a bit smaller than my own cape bees (about half the size actually although I have only seen two pickled specimens) I would think that the time A.cerana spend capped would also be quite short, or even shorter as their cells are minute.. (I think that Ruttner in his big book on bees whose name at present eludes me gives the brood durations for all the Apis species) So the european bees with their large cells must have been heaven and maybe thats why V.j multiplied up so much? It is also interesting to note the A.cerana are supposed to be dirty little bees that don't even clean their bottome boards up. Apparently this is a prob as wax moth hang around there. Out of interest, I know that there has been some mention by people that are doing removals of bees that have survived varroa? Were those old colonies in comb that had been packed with silk so it did not have a large diameter anymore? Also the hive in the walnut tree mentioned a while back? That sounded like an old hive. Paul Cronshaw in Santa Barbara- your removals - do you have any of the combs from the old hives left? Also Ted Wout I remember you mentioned a hive you were taking out of an oak tree? Do you still have those combs? It would be interesting to hear what the size of the cells was in the brood nest? If they were close to 5.0 mm (I unfortunately cannot convert this into inches as I dont know what the sub units are but I think that there are about 24 mm to an inch) then they are getting near that of african bees. > But then Garth says that his Euro bees don't draw the foundation too > well, meaning I suppose that our bees need larger cells? > Discussion please! > On this topic, the person who introduced me to the world of bees, Prof Randal Hepburn did some interesting work in his book 'Honeybees and Wax' in which he put bees on various size foundation and recorded the results. It appears that if one gives bees a size they are not used to, they will try to get it back to their favourite size, by drawing blank and dummy cells in amongst normal cells, giving a strange shape cell here and there and open spaces. This would give a bad brood pattern as the cells are not regular and some are not right to trigger the queens layiing responses. (governed by cell width) I should imagine that another problem would actually be how to fit a euro queen into an AHB cell for laying an egg. Carnolians would not be able to do it as they are just too big. Italians would I gather be able to as they are a bit smaller, and for many years people requeened with italians here with some success. The plus side of thie smaller bee thing is that one gets more bees per frame and they go faster. The down side is they have a bigger surface area to volume ratio which means that they will cool down faster which is why I should imagine bees in cold areas are big in the first place. The idea does sound fascinating though, with the though of maybe Arizona exporting drawn AHB comb to Canada for the summer months and then beekeepers putting their large frames back into the brood nest for the last few brood cycles before winter and so on. Could be fun for bee viruses and will boost tetracycline sales through the roof!! Note: AHB dont get AFB and EFB very much. I think in the book I mentioned earlier an experiment was carried out which was titled 'bigger bees more honey'. Apparently the idea was great but it flopped because of some undetermined reason. The bees were bigger but they made much less honey. Those were AHB on carnolian drawn frames. Oh yes, the extent to which AHB will draw frames of EHB foundation is also variable as I gather different sizes are available. This is different to all the african bee races which have about the same size cells (with the exception of my silly little bees) european bees have a large variety of cell sizes and I remember reading somewhere that even giving carnolian size foundation to italians gives problems with dummy cells being drawn. In conclusion I don't think it will be as simple as just changing over to a smaller foundation size. That would entail a change of hive dimensions (imagine going from about 4000 cells per frame to 8600 cells a frame). That means that your potential hive population doubles, your workforce can't fly as well in the rain, when they get cross there are twice as many to sting the neigbours ducks to death, extracting honey will take longer from those irritating honey filled end frames as the cappillary attraction goes up and so on. On the plus side it means that there may be a cheaper supplier of AHB foundation for me!! David, who makes those guys foundation? Keep well Garth PS if anybody is interested I can type out some of the bits and pieces about the foundation size experiments after my exams. Just give me a shout. --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:36:08 -0800 Reply-To: jones@hey.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Jones Subject: Fermented honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received a 5 gallon pail of crystallized honey from an orchard owner who didn't want to deal with it. I opened the pail and there was a half-inch of liquid honey on the top of the crystallized honey. This liquid honey had a terrible flavor, I assumed it has fermented so I am not going to use it. Can I feed this to my hives? If it is not a good idea I will throw it in the dump. If it can be fed back to the bees, can Fumidal B be mixed with it? Steve J. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:46:24 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Bumblebees In a message dated 97-10-22 20:43:17 EDT, raroach@ix.netcom.com (Robert A. Roach) writes: << The bumblebee is a more efficient pollinator than Apis mellifera. They start earlier, work later and visit more flowers per bee. They also "sonicate" or buzz the flowers which releases more pollen. >> The statement is true for individual bees, but needs to be qualified. On curcurbits each bumblebee is worth about 3 honeybees. They are very fuzzy and brawney, so they are more efficient as they push their way into the flower. (Good pollination is not accomplished by a single visit of either. I'd like to see 7-8 visits by a bumblebee or 20 by a honeybee.) But bumblebees nest in colonies of 50-150. Honeybees nest in colonies of 20,000 to 30,000. So there is definitely a quantitative advantage on the honeybee side. Honeybees also show fidelity to one species of plant, and they communicate to other bees where the goodies are, so their pollinator value increases. Bumblebees will happily go from dandelion to apple blossom. And they do not tell others where to go. They are very haphazard, with each worker going off on her own. Both are important pollinators, and we need both. But I couldn't let go by a blanket statement about bumblebees being more efficient. Each has strengths and weaknesses. There are some (I think delusional) folks who are gleefully rejoicing over the problems that honeybees are having. They think this will lead to a marvelous resurgeance of the wild native bees, and everything will be hunky dory with agriculture again. I think actual experience with commercial crop pollination, under contemporary conditions would cure them. We need to learn to manage, enhance, and protect ALL pollinators from pesticide misuse and the other threats they face. Honeybee keepers who are involved in pollination ought to be also studying up on, and maybe involved in, the culture of other pollinators. And those who are rooting for native bees, should not be trying to shut out the honeybee keepers and take pot shots at them. We are natural allies. Bob, I'm not accusing you of this. I just want the beekeepers to be aware that this outlook is around and seems to be growing. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! In a message dated 97-10-21 14:07:54 EDT, kline150@interaccess.com (Marlin (SCOTT) Kline) writes: << Did I do some thing wrong ? and any idea what type of bees I own.?"I also counted somewhere in the area 150 + stingers in my gloves and pants." But the honey is good.! >> I've seen bees like that. The old german black bee used to be common in this area before mites and the return of cotton (pesticide misuse). It was the bee brought by the early settlers, and a remnant predominated in the wild. So our Italian queens would mate with them, and produce some remarkably savage offspring sometimes. I have commented to other beekeepers on more than one occasion: "You know, these bees could kill us, if we didn't have protection." I don't like the bees that hammer on the plastic helmet like a hailstorm. The ones that hit the air, when the smoke hits them. They are not happy bees, and the beekeeper who works them is guaranteed to not be very happy either. A friend of mine used to split all his bees into nucs each year and let them raise their own queens. He did not buy queens, nor make any effort at selective breeding. He has an outfit that became known for bad bees, and he began to lose nuc sales. He did not want to stop, he claimed that the black bees made more honey, but he finally did begin to requeen many of the worst. If your hive is really bad, and it stays bad no matter what the condition, it may be there are still some of these wild germans around your area, and your hives superceded and got crossed with them. The solution would be requeening (wait until spring now). You might have to get some assistance from someone with experience. Personally I would (in the spring) place a nuc into a full sized box alongside them. Then I'd move the hive a hundred feet or so. The field force will go into the young hive. They will be nasty for a while, but the old bees will soon die off and the new hive will be going like gangbusters. Then after a day, requeen the old hive, with most of the field force gone and they will not be near as bad. If they still are too much for you to handle, move them again. When you requeen, you will have nothing but young bees and they will accept the new queen much better. If the hive is fine the next time you work it, genetics is not the problem; there was some condition that set them off. Was there any evidence of skunks, or other animal or human molesters? Was there a distant thunderstorm rumbling when you worked them? Any evidence of bees robbing each others' hives? Had all nectar flow just stopped? Several days of overcast/rain? I once went into a bee yard that a couple kids had been tearing through with four wheelers, skidding about and throwing sand against the hives. They ate me up! I went to see their papa, and solved that problem. (When a dog keeps chickens in a turmoil, they will stop laying - a good way to present it to folks. It's also a wonder that the kids did not get stung.) Some of the hybrid queens are very gentle, but when they are superceded, their offspring can be really bad. Did you have hybrid queens? Don't give up! Get some experienced help, if you need it. But bad bees are a fluke, and they are less and less common these days, as the wild germans are mostly gone. And with experience, you will learn that there are some times when it is best to simply let the bees alone and come back to them on a better day. That is one of the wonderful things about being a hobbyist. A commercial beekeeper who is staying in a motel, and paying some help, is going to do the bee work no matter what, so we sometimes have to just grin and bear it. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:46:36 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Fermented honey Comments: To: jones@hey.net In a message dated 97-10-26 10:39:18 EST, jones@hey.net (Steve Jones) writes: << I received a 5 gallon pail of crystallized honey from an orchard owner who didn't want to deal with it. I opened the pail and there was a half-inch of liquid honey on the top of the crystallized honey. This liquid honey had a terrible flavor, I assumed it has fermented so I am not going to use it. Can I feed this to my hives? If it is not a good idea I will throw it in the dump. If it can be fed back to the bees, can Fumidal B be mixed with it? >> You may be able to salvage the crystalized part. Carefully pour off the liquid on top. It had a lot of water, so it fermented. The crystals, however are nearly pure sugar. Gently warm the rest, and see if it is okay. I'll bet it will be, if you were able to get off almost all the liquid portion. I wouldn't give bees fermented honey, particularly in the fall or winter. I'll make them sick. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:57:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joe Latshaw Subject: Re: Colour Cordovan Dear Debbie, It is interesting that you did not buy your cordovan queens. The cordovan gene was widely used years ago in the Starline program as a genetic marker, so it was widely distributed. If you don't have any other bees in the area, say three to five miles, your bees may be mating fairly pure. If you have 25 colonies, you shouldn't have much of a problem with inbreeding since you bees are mating naturally. As you may have read, one of the first signs of inbreeding in a honeybee population is a very spotty brood pattern. This happens because the frequency of lethal genes increase, which are not visible to you, but are detected by the bees in the developing larvae. The bees then remove these larvae which makes it appear as if the queen is laying poorly. If you do have an isolated location, you can easily increase the frequency of the cordovan gene by selecting queens with the cordovan color as 100% of here drones will be cordovan. I work with the light cordovans down here in Ohio, but I use instrumental Insemination to maintain pure light cordovans. I'm always interested to here about other people with cordovans because there are so many interesting things to do with them. It is always fun to pick out your bees working on the flowers. Sincerely, Joe Latshaw ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: cell size discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello friends. On the Varroa mite and cell size thread. I have been studying Varroa mites for the last 14 years with overabundance of dedication and extending the scope of my studies to every little detail that I can learn about about them because of their impact on the future of beekeeping. Among the areas of interest that I have dedicated intensive research is the mechanism of invasion of the young larvae because it could/might offer a potential avenue to combat them. My observations have led me to believe that mites enter the cell bearing the em- bryos at the time when the bees go in to feed the larvae. The bees become unwilling (?) means of transportation for their parasites as these deposit them in contact with the young larvae. I am pretty sure of this fact. I have yet to see free mites within unoccupied cells nor in cells without larvae, hence, it seems that mites do not just merely walk into the cells. Although it is possible for Varroa mites to enter the cells on their own volition since I have seen them walking on the combs. I tend to think that walking on the surface of the combs occurs at the time when mites might be "switching" hosts. Their hold on their hosts is tenacious (as demonstrated by degree of difficulty to remove them from the surface of their host bees), thus not easily dislodged. In my opinion, mites arrive on the surface of the combs while holding on to their newly born (young bees) and transfer over to other bees after their arrival on the surface (since mites are observed on all age ranges of bees). Getting back to cell size: It does not matter which race of bees we are talking about. The nurse bees must be able to penetrate the depth of the cell to feed the larvae and it is at this time that mites penetrate the cells in which the larvae are growing. The only remote possibility would be that if the cells were of such a size that bees could just penetrate the confines of the cell, that the edge of the cell would serve as a barrier to exclude the mites. I would find that to be almost an impossibility because of the anatomical area in which the mites at usually found feeding (lower, rear abdominal area of the bees), hence the mites would be beneath the folded legs of the bees and thus "protected" from being "scraped" away. In summary, it seems to me that there is a probability of Varroa mites penetrating small cells regardless of the race of bees involved (as per the reasoning given above). I have seen mites in colonies with very small honey bees and in the cells of very large honey bees (relatively speaking). I would tend to think that inability of Varroa mites to invade some races of bees (more or less) depends on other than cell size factors. I Sincerely hope that this will be taken in light of mere personal observations with Varroa mites and having nothing to do with desire to take value away from the observations of others who have made their opinions known in relation to cell size. I am very much interested in hearing about the experiences that others may have on this subject. Please keep the thread alive. Sincerely. Dr. Pedro Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Black Bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just read David Green's response to Scott Kline's post about his aggressive hive, and was most interested, because David mentions Black Bees inb his post. I opened all three of my hives yesterday, two to remove Apistan and one to insert Apistan. I was most surprised to observe in one of the hives quite a few black bees mixed in with the Italians. These bees had abdomens that were quite black, I think with grayish rings. Their abdomens seemed also to be shaped a bit differently, terminating more pointedly, for lack of a better descriptor. I don't know if these are the traditional black bees of which Dave spoke, but I'd love to know. Anyone know of a net-accessible photo of black bees? I didn't want to leave the hive open for long, because of the weather, so there was no time to search for the queen. I din't notice any unusual aggressiveness, but it was chilly, I didn't muck about much with the hive, and the blacks comprised only maybe about 20% of the bees I saw. This hive was started with a few frames of brood from another and a new queen back in the spring. All my bees and queens came from Calvert Apiaries, and have been uniformly golden and gentle Italians. So . . . How did I get Blacks? I'm not aware of any other bees kept within 5 miles (though I could have missed a hive in someone's backyard). I don't recall seeing any honeybees in my yard last year, before I got my hives. Of course, a feral swarm could have settled within range and my hive may have superceded their queen, or replaced her if I accidentally squashed her. But, Is it possible that the black coloring is something recessive in the population that just happened to emerge here? Finally, given that the queen, even if a supercedure, was Italian, and that the black traits are coming from drones in the area, and that queens mate with more than one drone, will I have a mixed bunch of bees in that hive 'til the next queen? Thanks, Greg ____________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Mt. Gilead, NC ghankins@ac.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:02:34 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert E Neely Subject: Death of Fellow Beekeeper I regret to inform you of the death of my husband, Robert E. Neely (Bob), on 9/24/97 at home of an apparent heart attack. Bob had enjoyed so very much his communication with you all and I'm sure learned a great deal from your comments. After his retirement 2 years ago, he began beekeeping again as a hobby. I will be unscribing to the Bee-L in about a week. Good luck to each of you. Sandra Neely ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Beverly Ellen Stanley Subject: Re: Death of Fellow Beekeeper Dear Mrs. Neely: I am so sorry to read of your loss. It was so kind of you to write so that all of us would know. I will keep Bob and you in my prayers. I pray that Bob is in that land of milk and honey that has been promised and that God has him taking care of His bees there too. +Bev ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:12:37 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Marlin (SCOTT) Kline" Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your response,my Uncle and myself are going out tomorrow to get some samples to determine what type of bee this is and if there is a problem.There were none of the possible problems that you asked at least not to my knowledge.I have been told it will take 3-4 weeks for results.I have been out to check on them on prior occasions and had to leave as a result of being mean,but never like this time. David Green wrote: > In a message dated 97-10-21 14:07:54 EDT, kline150@interaccess.com (Marlin > (SCOTT) Kline) writes: > > << Did I do some thing wrong ? > and any idea what type of bees I own.?"I also counted somewhere in the > area 150 + stingers in my gloves and pants." But the honey is good.! >> > > I've seen bees like that. The old german black bee used to be common in > this area before mites and the return of cotton (pesticide misuse). > > It was the bee brought by the early settlers, and a remnant predominated > in the wild. So our Italian queens would mate with them, and produce some > remarkably savage offspring sometimes. I have commented to other beekeepers > on more than one occasion: "You know, these bees could kill us, if we didn't > have protection." > > I don't like the bees that hammer on the plastic helmet like a hailstorm. > The ones that hit the air, when the smoke hits them. They are not happy > bees, and the beekeeper who works them is guaranteed to not be very happy > either. > > A friend of mine used to split all his bees into nucs each year and let > them raise their own queens. He did not buy queens, nor make any effort at > selective breeding. He has an outfit that became known for bad bees, and he > began to lose nuc sales. He did not want to stop, he claimed that the black > bees made more honey, but he finally did begin to requeen many of the worst. > > If your hive is really bad, and it stays bad no matter what the condition, > it may be there are still some of these wild germans around your area, and > your hives superceded and got crossed with them. The solution would be > requeening (wait until spring now). You might have to get some assistance > from someone with experience. > > Personally I would (in the spring) place a nuc into a full sized box > alongside them. Then I'd move the hive a hundred feet or so. The field force > will go into the young hive. They will be nasty for a while, but the old bees > will soon die off and the new hive will be going like gangbusters. > > Then after a day, requeen the old hive, with most of the field force gone > and they will not be near as bad. If they still are too much for you to > handle, move them again. When you requeen, you will have nothing but young > bees and they will accept the new queen much better. > > If the hive is fine the next time you work it, genetics is not the > problem; there was some condition that set them off. Was there any evidence > of skunks, or other animal or human molesters? Was there a distant > thunderstorm rumbling when you worked them? Any evidence of bees robbing each > others' hives? Had all nectar flow just stopped? Several days of > overcast/rain? > > I once went into a bee yard that a couple kids had been tearing through > with four wheelers, skidding about and throwing sand against the hives. They > ate me up! I went to see their papa, and solved that problem. (When a dog > keeps chickens in a turmoil, they will stop laying - a good way to present it > to folks. It's also a wonder that the kids did not get stung.) > > Some of the hybrid queens are very gentle, but when they are superceded, > their offspring can be really bad. Did you have hybrid queens? > > Don't give up! Get some experienced help, if you need it. But bad bees are > a fluke, and they are less and less common these days, as the wild germans > are mostly gone. And with experience, you will learn that there are some > times when it is best to simply let the bees alone and come back to them on a > better day. That is one of the wonderful things about being a hobbyist. A > commercial beekeeper who is staying in a motel, and paying some help, is > going to do the bee work no matter what, so we sometimes have to just grin > and bear it. > > Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA > http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Death of Fellow Beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mrs. Neely: My condolonces to you on the loss of your husnband. My prayers are for Bob, you and rest of your family. May The Good Lord ask Bob to that special eternal garden where all beekeepers aspire to be their final destination. God Blees you and thanks for sharing with us. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Black Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Greg. Sounds like the classic description of laying workers. I would look for a balmy day (soon!!!) and check for the queen. One sign of laying workers is the presence of several eggs per cell or even eggs that have been laid on the sides of the cells. Good luck. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 02:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Richard H. Glassford I" Subject: Re: Death of Fellow Beekeeper I have only been on this list for a short while. Yet I feel as though I have met the finest people this earth has to offer. I'm sure your husband will be missed by us all. I really feel in my heart that your husband will always be with us in spirit. I sincerely hope that you stay on with us for are sake as your leaving would leave a void. Lots of ways I feel as though we are all just one big family which never loses it members ever. I know the articles I read always seem so personal that I am continuing looking forward to reading them. I wished the rest of the people of this world had the same beautiful character of your husband and all the keepers on this list. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:23:21 +1100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Bowman Subject: new bee-l participant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently linked up with bee-l discussion group. I work with the Dept. of Agriculture, New South Wales, Australia. I spend much of my time (about half ) on hive inspection. I also have a small apiary (20 hives). I am fascinated by the nature of discussion on Bee-l centered mainly on the topics of Varroa and AHB. These are two problems the Australian beekeeper have yet to suffer. I only our industry and Australia's quarantine services can keep our country free. Meanwhile it is important we keep up with the latest in research being carried out in countries not so fortunate. I intend to collate some of the anecdotal records from Bee-l and place in our beekeeper newsletters, etc. At the least it may make an inconsiderate fool think twice about smuggling a "special" queen into Australia. Regards Rob Bowman Bathurst, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 05:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Newcomb Subject: D.E hives For info. on the DE hives, connect to www.muskoka.net/~beeworks/bees2.html. I read over their page, and it sounds interesting and logical. I'd like to hear from others who have tried the DE hive. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:30:46 +0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: emma@BIZDEPOT.COM.PH Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Business_Depot_internet_cafT?= Subject: Inquiry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sir/ Madame : I would like to have informations on the biology of bees, including details on honeybees and bumblebees, specifically pollination, honey, and related material. Thank You ! |\\\> EMMA ACAYLAR |///> emma@bizdepot.com.ph ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:05:02 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Torbjorn Schultz Organization: BeeNet-Sverige Subject: varroa questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Garth, Perhaps you can help me with some of my questions, which I sent= away to the conference a few days ago? Do yu know of any promising research and results according: methods to use feromons to trap and reduce the varroa mites? methods to use "natural enemies" and diseases against the mites? breeding varroa resistent bees? Regards from Torbjorn, Sweden * Svar p=E5 meddelande i "BEE-L.INT" G> On Friday, David Eyre responded to my post about cell size and G> african bees. >> On 24 Oct 97 at 11:32, Garth wrote: >> > I do't want to sound silly here but I would think the easiest >> > way of telling if a hive is africanised is to look at the >> > cell size. Should be about 5mm for all african bees, whereas >> > it varies for euuro bees but is usually a bit higher. Mine >> > are about 4.3mm, which means that they dont draw the AHB >> > foundation I buy too well so I use a ver small strip at the >> > top of each frame. One can see the transition >> >> I had just got off the phone talking with someone in Arizona on >> this very subject of cell size when I received the above from >> Garth. They stated a correlation between cell size and Varroa >> infestation. It seems they are putting Euro bees in smaller >> cell foundation and not treating Varroa with any chemicals or >> medication. Could the AHB foundation and smaller cell size be >> the answer? G> Firstly I think this is a great bit of research! G> I think that this is probably due to the fact that the bees G> thus born are going to go through a more rapid metamorphosis. G> I do not know this, but would think that a fastidious hive G> would clean any mites out of uncapped brood cells, hence the G> only time the varroa could multiply would be when it was in G> the capped cell. As the natural host of Varroa jacobsonii is G> the asian cavity nesting bee, Apis cerana, which is a bit G> smaller than my own cape bees (about half the size actually G> although I have only seen two pickled specimens) I would think G> that the time A.cerana spend capped would also be quite short, G> or even shorter as their cells are minute.. (I think that G> Ruttner in his big book on bees whose name at present eludes G> me gives the brood durations for all the Apis species) So the G> european bees with their large cells must have been heaven and G> maybe thats why V.j multiplied up so much? It is also G> interesting to note the A.cerana are supposed to be dirty G> little bees that don't even clean their bottome boards up. G> Apparently this is a prob as wax moth hang around there. G> Out of interest, I know that there has been some mention by G> people that are doing removals of bees that have survived G> varroa? Were those old colonies in comb that had been packed G> with silk so it did not have a large diameter anymore? Also G> the hive in the walnut tree mentioned a while back? That G> sounded like an old hive. Paul Cronshaw in Santa Barbara- your G> removals - do you have any of the combs from the old hives G> left? Also Ted Wout I remember you mentioned a hive you were G> taking out of an oak tree? Do you still have those combs? It G> would be interesting to hear what the size of the cells was in G> the brood nest? If they were close to 5.0 mm (I unfortunately G> cannot convert this into inches as I dont know what the sub G> units are but I think that there are about 24 mm to an inch) G> then they are getting near that of african bees. >> But then Garth says that his Euro bees don't draw the >> foundation too >> well, meaning I suppose that our bees need larger cells? >> Discussion please! >> G> On this topic, the person who introduced me to the world of G> bees, Prof Randal Hepburn did some interesting work in his G> book 'Honeybees and Wax' in which he put bees on various size G> foundation and recorded the results. It appears that if one G> gives bees a size they are not G> used to, they will try to get it back to their favourite size, by G> drawing blank and dummy cells in amongst normal cells, giving G> a strange shape cell here and there and open spaces. This G> would give a bad brood pattern as the cells are not regular G> and some are not right to trigger the queens layiing G> responses. (governed by cell width) G> I should imagine that another problem would actually be how to G> fit a euro queen into an AHB cell for laying an egg. G> Carnolians would not G> be able to do it as they are just too big. Italians would I gather G> be able to as they are a bit smaller, and for many years G> people requeened with italians here with some success. G> The plus side of thie smaller bee thing is that one gets more G> bees per frame and they go faster. The down side is they have G> a bigger surface area to volume ratio which means that they G> will cool down faster which is why I should imagine bees in G> cold areas are big in the first place. G> The idea does sound fascinating though, with the though of G> maybe Arizona exporting drawn AHB comb to Canada for the G> summer months and then beekeepers putting their large frames G> back into the brood nest for the last few brood cycles before G> winter and so on. Could be fun for bee viruses and will boost G> tetracycline sales through the roof!! G> Note: AHB dont get AFB and EFB very much. G> I think in the book I mentioned earlier an experiment was G> carried out which was titled 'bigger bees more honey'. G> Apparently the idea was great but it flopped because of some G> undetermined reason. The bees were bigger but they made much G> less honey. Those were AHB on carnolian drawn frames. Oh yes, G> the extent to which AHB will draw frames of EHB foundation is G> also variable as I gather different sizes are available. This G> is different to all the african bee races which have about the G> same size cells (with the exception of my silly little bees) G> european bees have a large variety of cell sizes and I G> remember reading somewhere that even giving carnolian size G> foundation to italians gives problems with dummy cells being G> drawn. G> In conclusion I don't think it will be as simple as just G> changing over to a smaller foundation size. That would entail G> a change of hive dimensions (imagine going from about 4000 G> cells per frame to 8600 cells a frame). That means that your G> potential hive population doubles, your workforce can't fly as G> well in the rain, when they get cross there are twice as many G> to sting the neigbours ducks to death, extracting honey will G> take longer from those irritating honey filled end frames as G> the cappillary attraction goes up and so on. G> On the plus side it means that there may be a cheaper supplier G> of AHB foundation for me!! David, who makes those guys G> foundation? G> Keep well G> Garth G> PS if anybody is interested I can type out some of the bits G> and pieces about the foundation size experiments after my G> exams. Just give me a shout. G> --- G> Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries G> 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis G> Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation G> 6139 G> Eastern Cape G> South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 G> 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University G> In general, generalisations are bad. G> Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:50:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Taylor Subject: subscribe -- [ From: Tom Taylor * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- SUBSCRIBE BEE-L < TOM TAYLOR > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: VGBOB@VSCACS.VSC.EDU Subject: Ways to keep bees over winter in cold climate I am a novice beekeeper using bees for apitherapy for my wife with M.S. I would like to have bees available during the winter months for this purpose and am asking for any advice on the best method to accomplish this. We live in Vermont, so the winter will be fairly long with temps reaching -20 F. The alternatives that I have come up with so far are: 1) Prepare the hive for winter and open it periodically when the weather cooperative. 2) Place the hive outside adjacent to the house, with a tunnel thru a wall to allow the bees to be collected indoors. 3) Place the hive inside the house, with a tunnel thru a wall for the bees to get out of the hive when needed. The first alternative seems a little risky, in that the colony would be exposed to a fair amount of cold over the winter. The issue with the third is whether this disrupts any natural cycle by remaining fairly warm during the winter. As I said these are just the thoughts of someone with very limited experience so I would appreciate any suggestions, comments, or ideas. Thanks in advance for any help you might have. Bob Noble (vgbob@vscacs.vsc.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:10:10 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Feeding minerals, vitamins, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit , Mr. Heidi Fredrick writes Hello Rimantas Could you tell me how you use marjoram, garlic and wormwood to treat your bees for Nosema? I use Fumagillin now and would prefer to try an alternative if you've had some success. Any information is appreciated. Thank You, Heidi Fredrick Ypsilanti, Michigan (Beekeeper with three hives) Maybe, this will be of some interest to Bee-L members as well. Every month we are invited to take a part in consulting meetings arranged by the beekeeper society of our town. There is delivered a lecture on a "hot" topic by some professor of an agricultural school or an experienced beekeeper. We are suggested to refuse chemical treatment and use natural means. Here is some recipes to prevent Nosema. Should be used for winter feeding (bees get treatment all the winter season using such meals) !!! 1. Garlic. Preparing "brandy": Grate 25g of garlic and add 300g of boiling water ( 100 dg C ). Wait 3-4 hours. Filter. Syrup ratio : 1kg sugar +1ltr water+75g (or mltr) of "brandy". There is noticed an influence against varroa and moth when using such syrup often (by keeping garlic smell in a hive ) 2. Saint-John's-wort. Preparing "brandy": 5ltr water +(100-200)g Saint-John's-wort to boil 10-15 minutes. To filter the rosy "brandy". Syrup ratio: 50kg sugar +30ltr water +5ltr of "brandy". 3.Wormwood (absinthium). Preparing "brandy": 5ltr water +100g wormwood. Dropping to a boiling water and wait until becomes cool. (Taste is bitter) Syrup ratio: : 50kg sugar +30ltr water +5ltr of "brandy". Attention: Such honey has a little bitter taste if to use ! Best regards Rimantas Zujus Kaunas Lithuania e-mail: zujus@isag.lei.lt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:41:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GARY BUCKNER Subject: Penncap-M letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning, I am not sure who to address this letter to. I am Gary Buckner Area Manager for the Washington State Department of Agriculture. In Washington we are currently working on many bee issues. Chester Ferguson, A local beekeeper, just brought me in an unreadable fax that was sent to him. The only part we can make out is the subject: Penncap-M bee losses and this e-mail address from Mike Allsopp. If you have information on the content of the letter please forward it to me. E-mail: gbuckner@agr.wa.gov Thank you ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:32:11 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "catkinson@ipa.net" Subject: Re: Bee space In-Reply-To: <01BCDF47.8D510320@modem-103.rideau.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Debbie, The D.E. Hive sounds very interesting. What is the address of The Bee Works? Curtis Atkinson 2701 S. Caraway Jonesboro, Ar 72401 501-932-7838 catkinson@ipa.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:33:03 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: CSenternh@AOL.COM Subject: e-mail "CSenternh@aol.com" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:32:58 UT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Greg Magruder Subject: Re: Injecting Bee Venom Artificially > >In New England I Give Bees to people all year long for BVT. Don't be afraid to open your hives all winter long. By removing so Bees you stimulate the colony to raise more Bees. Try it you may learn alot. I have been asked to supply bees to someone undergoing BVT. They say they will need them over a period of six weeks for this treatment. I have some concern, now that it's getting quite cold here in Kentucky, that I should go into a hive (got 6) every few days to collect more bees. Can you give a little more insight on your experience? Also how's the best way to keep them during treatment? Your help will be greatly appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:23:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Inquiry Comments: cc: emma@bizdepot.com.ph From: emma@BIZDEPOT.COM.PH << I would like to have informations on the biology of bees, including details on honeybees and bumblebees, specifically pollination, honey, and related material. Thank You ! >> For pollination info, go to "The Pollination Scene" at the address below. You will find links to many sources of info on pollination, as well as a lot of practical info on the page. For general beekeeping information go to the Bee FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) at Sunsite by following the link on the pollination page. You will find thousands of sources of info. You could spend weeks learning from all the resources on the internet. A word to the wise: not everything you find is authoritative. As Andy Nachbaur says: Use at your own risk. Good Luck! http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:41:23 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Ways to keep bees over winter in cold climate In a message dated 97-10-27 09:04:21 EST, VGBOB@VSCACS.VSC.EDU writes: << I am a novice beekeeper using bees for apitherapy for my wife with M.S. I would like to have bees available during the winter months for this purpose and am asking for any advice on the best method to accomplish this. We live in Vermont, so the winter will be fairly long with temps reaching -20 F. The alternatives that I have come up with so far are: 1) Prepare the hive for winter and open it periodically when the weather cooperative. 2) Place the hive outside adjacent to the house, with a tunnel thru a wall to allow the bees to be collected indoors. 3) Place the hive inside the house, with a tunnel thru a wall for the bees to get out of the hive when needed. The first alternative seems a little risky, in that the colony would be exposed to a fair amount of cold over the winter. The issue with the third is whether this disrupts any natural cycle by remaining fairly warm during the winter. As I said these are just the thoughts of someone with very limited experience so I would appreciate any suggestions, comments, or ideas. Thanks in advance for any help you might have. >> We have friends who are doing the same thing. I hope the therapy is very successful. Our friend says she is alive today because of the stings. Your first alternative is probably the best. If bees receive a source of artificial warmth it tend to induce flight, which as you know, can be fatal in winter. I would pick a spot for the bees where there is not likely to be deep snowdrifts, but has as much shelter from the north and west as possible. You won't be able to wrap the hive, but lots of hives make it through winter with no wrapping. Make sure you protect them from mice with some kind of mouse guard. I would winter the bees on a candy board if possible. That means that you will not have supers of honey over the brood nest, though there should be some honey in the brood nest. The cluster will be directly below the candy board. therefore lifting it will give instant access to the bees. Their evaporation will condense on the candy, keeping it fairly wet and keep them continously feeding. This will help alleviate some of the stresses you will be adding to their lives Open them on days when there is little wind and as much sunshine as possible. Get the live bees directly from the top bars or the bottom of the candy feeder, then close it up. You don't need to pull brood frames. By late January, even though it is cold, the bees will be beginning to raise brood. If all else fails, hollar at us guys in the south. We have access to our bees pretty much all winter, and there are many ways to move them. There are lots of beekeepers running up and down I-95 all winter, too. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:51:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Debbie Hutchings Subject: Re: Ways to keep bees over winter in cold climate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C6.48AC88C0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C6.48AC88C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I'm not as experienced as some of the other bee keepers on the list, but = I've had experience with bringing my hives into the basement of my = house. I winter in single brood chambers, which I think would be easier = for someone like you, to get to the cluster, to get a bee. First you = want to pick a spot in your basement where the bees are keep in total = darkness, or they will come out of their hive and become lost.( no sun = to help them navigate back home.) You can use a red light bulb for your = light as my experience, the bees can't see that light and won't come out = of their hive. I also keep the temperature around 35 to 40 degrees F. = I found that the bees don't use as much food at that temp, because they = don't have to create as much heat for themselves. At that temp they stay = semi dormant. I also supply them with sugar water 3 sugar/ 1 water with = T myosin and Fumiasin just in case they become short on food. I found = that my hives will have a greater build up in the spring and I think it = is because my queens start to lay earlier than they would if left = outside. I live in the Ottawa Valley here in Ontario were we have pretty = cold weather and lots of snow and freezing rain. I have 25 hives. Debbie =20 -----Original Message----- From: VGBOB@VSCACS.VSC.EDU [SMTP:VGBOB@VSCACS.VSC.EDU] Sent: Saturday, October 25, 1997 12:13 AM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Ways to keep bees over winter in cold climate I am a novice beekeeper using bees for apitherapy for my wife with M.S. I would like to have bees available during the winter months for this purpose and am asking for any advice on the best method to accomplish = this. We live in Vermont, so the winter will be fairly long with temps = reaching -20 F. The alternatives that I have come up with so far are: 1) Prepare the hive for winter and open it periodically when the weather cooperative. 2) Place the hive outside adjacent to the house, with a tunnel thru a wall to allow the bees to be collected indoors. 3) Place the hive inside the house, with a tunnel thru a wall for the bees to get out of the hive when needed. The first alternative seems a little risky, in that the colony would be exposed to a fair amount of cold over the winter. The issue with the third is whether this disrupts any natural cycle by remaining fairly = warm during the winter. As I said these are just the thoughts of someone with very limited = experience so I would appreciate any suggestions, comments, or ideas. Thanks in advance for any help you might have. 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IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBEgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAA AB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AAAzpw== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C6.48AC88C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:59:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Debbie Hutchings Subject: Re: Bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C7.6F9471E0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C7.6F9471E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Curtis! The snail mail address is The BeeWorks 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, = Orillia, Ontario L3V 6HI Phone/Fax (705) 326-7171 or Web site = http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks/ Hope this helps. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: catkinson@ipa.net [SMTP:catkinson@SIREN.IPA.NET] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 1997 3:32 PM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Bee space Debbie, The D.E. Hive sounds very interesting. What is the address of The Bee Works? Curtis Atkinson 2701 S. 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========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:10:16 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Debbie Hutchings Subject: Re: Penncap-M letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C8.F7842360" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C8.F7842360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! I hope this is what you were looking for. In a message dated 97-10-20 11:35:03 EDT, vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA (MIKE ALLSOPP) writes: << Fruit producers (apples & pears) in South Africa have, for the first time this year, sprayed Penncap-M (microencapsulated methyl parathion) on their crops. Which has resulted in quite a bit of bee mortality, and quite a furore. Looking through the literature I have found that much the same occurred in the USA (and Australia?) in the early 1980's, but there is not much reported since the mid-1980's.>> The losses continue. Several beekeepers had some severe losses earlier this season in SC from peach orchard applications where there was clover in bloom in the orchard floor. This, of course is a violation of the label directions. Beekeepers who don't know the law, and are not assertive will get no help. So many have gotten cynical and don't do anything. Beekeepers who insist on enforcement CAN get help, albeit very reluctantly. It is an uphill fight. <> Yes, it is used a lot in the fruit industry. Sometimes it is used at petal fall, where it can do massive damage to bees, if the grower "jumps the gun" and there is still bloom. I know one beekeeper who was put out of business from losing about 400 hives this way, seven or eight years ago. Then it may be used again in the last week of June or the first week of July for a broad-spectrum control of several pests. Here the bloom that draws bees is clover, or other weeds that are blooming under the trees. In both cases, such use is a violation of the label. It is also used a lot with alfalfa hay. The hay is supposed to be cut, then the material used, with no bloom present. This is not always followed. If there is bloom, the damage can be massive -- again from a violation. It's used on sweet corn, which can draw bees to the tassels for pollen. The damage worsens on late corn when aerial applications contaminate goldenrod around the fields. Both types of kills result from violations of the label directions. << (2) What are the spray conditions (pertaining to bees) for its use?>> Like every pesticide that is toxic to bees, the labels give specific directions for the protection of the FORAGING bees. Applicators often ignore this. They are only concerned if they see beehives. If they are on an adjacent property, they often don't care. It is very difficult to get enforcement. Beekeepers don't have much clout. But the shortage of bees is helping some. We are getting action in some cases. Wherever we have gotten a citation or two, the other applicators take more care -- for a while....And apple growers are doing a bit better on orchard floor management - getting rid of bloom that draws bees - because they have to rent bees for pollination; the supply is down and the price is up, so they are more prone to listen. But.....when a pest that the grower can see is munching away on leaves or fruit, and the grower sees dollars going down the drain, the tendency is to forget about the bees -- until they need them again. <<(3) Are there still honeybee losses due to Penncap-M?>> Yes and they are bad ones when they come. Bees that show any visible damage during the growing season, will show more damage again during winter - often the whole hive will die. Contaminated pollen is stored in the cells, and covered with fresh pollen, so the hive appears to recover. Later, when there is no fresh pollen to dilute the contamination, they are more vulnerable, and they die out. You can take nice spring nucs, with a young queen going like gangbusters, put a frame of that pollen from a Penncap deadout right beside the brood, and immediately you'd think the queen was failing. The brood becomes very spotty, because some of it dies and is carried out. Beekeepers who are hit by Penncap M (trademark) need to somehow remove as much of that contaminated pollen as possible. Even hives that survive will be weak and unproductive the following spring. Often the pollen is concentrated mostly on a couple frames. These should be removed as soon after the damage as possible. But beekeepers need to be alert to prevent damage, rather than try to salvage the bees afterwards. There needs to be a strong educational effort to make applicators realize they have to wait until FULL PETAL FALL, and to practice good orchard floor management during clover and other weed bloom. Nothing but grass sod should be allowed to grow/bloom in the orchard floor. Otherwise they are set up for violations and consequent bee kills. A lot of beekeepers would like to see Penncap M banned. I doubt that is a possible option, It is too valuable a tool for growers. But, I've seen hundreds of bee kills from Penncap M, Sevin, Furadan, Lindane, and many other materials, and never seen one that didn't result from a violation of the label directions. A camcorder is a good tool to show violations as they occur, then a couple citations will stop the problem for a while. Needed: 1. Beekeepers who are not wimps, who know the law. 2. Pesticide enforcers of integrity who will enforce the law. 3. Agricultural officials who will teach applicators how to monitor for foraging bees on the application sites PRIOR to application. - and tell them they will lose their certification, pay fines, and be liable for damage if they don't. Then bee kills will drop to negligible. I am presuming your pesticide laws are similar. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html -----Original Message----- From: GARY BUCKNER [SMTP:GBUCKNER@AGR.WA.GOV] Sent: Friday, October 24, 1997 11:41 AM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Penncap-M letter Good morning, I am not sure who to address this letter to. I am Gary Buckner Area Manager for the Washington State Department of Agriculture. In Washington we are currently working on many bee issues. Chester Ferguson, A local beekeeper, just brought me in an unreadable fax that was sent to him. The only part we can make out is the subject: Penncap-M bee losses and this e-mail address from Mike Allsopp. If you have information on the content of the letter please forward it to me. 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OiAAAAAAAwANNP03AACp3g== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE2C8.F7842360-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: cell size discussion In-Reply-To: <28C8ABB125D@warthog.ru.ac.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Oct 97 at 15:58, Garth wrote: > On Friday, David Eyre responded to my post about cell size and > african bees. > > medication. Could the AHB foundation and smaller cell size be the > > answer? On 26 Oct 97 at 15:58, Garth wrote:> > I think that this is probably due to the fact that the bees thus > born are going to go through a more rapid metamorphosis. I do not > know this, but would think that a fastidious hive would clean any This is an area that seems a trifle strange to me and we have discussed this before! How can cell size control the emergence rate of bees? Surely this is a genetic trait. I don't see drones inadvertently laid in worker cells emerging faster, they take just as long as normal. Isn't this the same thing? As to fastidious hives! There is ongoing tests being made for hygienic bees both here in Ontario and the States. Whether it will prove to be a viable alternative to Varroa treatments, only time will tell. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:25:22 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Beekeeping Videos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I have recently spoken to a beekeeping supplier here in Dublin Ireland regarding videos on beekeeping. He told me that there was very little available. I am wondering if anybody can suggest a video which gives training on bees. One of the problems is that videos from the USA cannot be used in Europe. Thanks for any assistance that you can give me Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:25:23 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Queen breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I have recently come across a jenter system for queen breeding. I do not fully follow the system as outlined. I am wondering if there is a detailed account of this system available. Thanks for any input to this request. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:39:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Hartman B. Canon" Subject: Re: Beekeeping Videos Comments: To: cssl@iol.ie MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There plenty of people around that will convert NTSC(VHS) video to the European (PAL) format and the reverse. I think the MAIN problem is finding videos in the first place. H.B.Canon Geneva FL ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Beekeeping Videos Author: cssl@iol.ie at ORL-SMTP-G Date: 1997.10.27 14.25 Hi All I have recently spoken to a beekeeping supplier here in Dublin Ireland regarding videos on beekeeping. He told me that there was very little available. I am wondering if anybody can suggest a video which gives training on bees. One of the problems is that videos from the USA cannot be used in Europe. Thanks for any assistance that you can give me Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:16:04 -0600 Reply-To: BEEMAN52@worldnet.att.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ken Lawrence Subject: Aggressive Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ken Lawrence here. I deleted the Original Post. The post was about aggressive bees. Looking in one of my American Bee Journals dated NOV. 21 1895. "When bees in the same apiary get to robbing each other, fill the smoker with tobacco and give the colonies that are doing the robbing a through smoking. Smoke then until they are thoroughly drunk. The large stems of the tobacco-plant cut fine with a fodder cutter, or ax are the best fuel for this business, or for -- vicious bees--, and cost nothing. For ordinary work, corn-cobs cut fine are the best fuel know". Beeing that I am still laid up I have time to read some old copies of my bee magazines. There were 8 pages in the Nov.21, 1895 issue and cost was one dollar per Annum. if anybody is interested. Ken ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:28:31 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: wax moth recipe/trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good evening. Sometime ago there was a thread going for a short while on making bees-wax moth traps. I thought that I had copied some of them but now I do not seem to find them. I would appreciate copies if anyone on the list copied them. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:40:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lawrence Cooke Organization: Dolores Door&Trim Subject: Freezing wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am keeping my empty supers in an open carport here in Colorado. Is the nightly freezing enough to keep the wax moths and larva from getting started.. Thanks Lawrence Cooke ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:21:16 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Applying mineral oil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01BCE337.67F44760" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BCE337.67F44760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all =20 I am ready to treat my colonies with FGMO and I just want to make = certain of a few things. I picked up some "light mineral oil". Is = this the correct type? It seems to me that this thinner type would be = effective against the mites, but less likely to clog the bees spiracles = than thicker oil. (my reasoning is this: that the mites spiracles are = smaller than the bees, and thus, more easily clogged by the thinner oil. = at the same time, the larger spiracles of the bees wouldn't be as = likely to be clogged) =20 The second point concerns the application method. I went to the local = pharmacy and bought a couple syringes WITHOUT the needles. The opening = is about 1 2/3 mm . Would this produce the required SMALL bead of oil = required? =20 Thanks, =20 Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 11 colonies and counting =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BCE337.67F44760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all
 
I am ready to treat my colonies with = FGMO and I=20 just want to make certain of a few  things.  I picked up some=20 "light mineral oil".  Is this the correct type?  It = seems to=20 me that this thinner type would be effective against the mites, but less = likely=20 to clog the bees spiracles than thicker = oil. (my=20 reasoning is this: that the mites spiracles are smaller than the bees, = and thus,=20 more easily clogged by the thinner oil.  at the same time, the = larger=20 spiracles of the bees wouldn't be as likely to be clogged)  =
The second point concerns the = application=20 method.  I went to the local pharmacy and bought a couple syringes = WITHOUT=20 the needles.  The opening is about 1 2/3 mm .  Would this = produce the=20 required SMALL bead of oil required? 
 
Thanks,
 
Ian Watson    realtor@niagara.com
real = estate=20 agent     gardener   =20 baritone
beekeeper---> 11 colonies and=20 counting  
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BCE337.67F44760-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:53:08 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Angus Stokes Subject: Re: Queen breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Many members of the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders' Association use the Jenter system for obtaining young larvae of known age from a selected colony. Here is Albert Knight's account of how we use it Regards Angus Stokes The Jenter System The system is a method of getting the queen to lay in plastic cells that are in two pieces, the base of the cell, and the rest of it. The base is removable and once it has a tiny larvae in, it is removed and a separate cell top clicked on to it to give a normal looking cell. These number about 100 set in a plastic box with holes to accept these removable bases. Around each of these removable cell bases are static cells that give the whole a normal appearance of comb. The box is set in the middle of a brood frame, sufficient comb being cut out to allow the box to be inserted. It is screwed into the top bar (two "legs stick up from the box) and wire is used to anchor it to the bottom bar. The "comb" in the box is one-sided, the back of the box has a plastic cover that can be removed to gain access to the back of the cells. The front also has a removable cover, but this has queen excluder sized slots in it to let workers into the comb to service the larvae. The removable cells protrude so one can grip them. The whole box is about the same thickness as normal brood comb. When the Jenter is first used it needs to be "primed". That is the comb's plastic foundation needs to drawn out by the bees. The front cover is left off at this stage. Once the comb has been drawn out the unit is ready for use. There may be some honey stored in it, but this will be removed once it is in use. To use it, the front cover is put back on, in the centre of this has a circular removable disc for inserting the queen. With the queen inserted the circular cover is replaced, the queen can now only lay in the box area. By the way the circular disc should have a piece of frame wire attached to it, this can be tied to one of the queen excluder slots, in this way it never gets lost. The frame must be in the centre of the brood nest. Some leave the queen in for 24 hours, but I usually put her in at 8pm and remove her next day at 8am. Of course if she has not laid in the removable cups leave her in for another 12 hours. Queens will tend to lay in all the cells surrounding the removable ones first. Releasing the queen is done by removing the front cover, but this must be replaced. This is to ensure the queen will not go in and lay up any vacant cells. You now have eggs which are of known age to within 12 hours, so you know that they will be tiny larvae on the morning of the 3rd day. You will have made preparations to have colonies ready to receive the larval transfers (queenless strong colonies bursting with bees). The transfer is quite easy and I do this in my car which I get warmed up beforehand. The back cover is removed from the box, and the cells removed one at a time. Cell tops are clicked on to the bases to form a complete cell, these are then pushed into yellow cup holders, which in turn are inserted into the holes of a metal bar which has previously been mounted in an empty frame (no comb or foundation). Each of these bars hold 10 cells and two bars can be mounted in a frame. This is the number (20) I give to a strong queenlees colony to get them started. Obviously you can repeat this several times if you are raising a lot of queens. I use colonies on double brood boxes for getting the cells started. This is done by rearranging the brood frames so that the top box has sealed brood only, plus stores of honey and frames of pollen. A gap is left in the centre of the box to receive the frame of transferred larvae. The frames on either side comprise of one with pollen and one with open stores. The queen is in the bottom box , the queen excluder being on top of this box. A few hours before transfer of larvae takes place the box with the queen in it is moved to a new site in the apiary and any supers are moved with it. The top box is now on a new floor board, a cover and roof being fitted. The flying bees from the box that has been moved away will return to the box that is ready to receive the transfers. The next day the whole unit can be restored by bringing back the box with the queen in, placing it on the floorboard with any supers on top, and the box with the transfers in placed on top. The cells which will be well started will now continue to be raised as queen cells. You will find the larvae are very tiny using this system, it fact if your eyesight is not up to scratch you may think there is nothing in the cells. A gleam of brood food gives the game away though. The system gives very young larvae without the need to touch them with a grafting tool. The queens will be large providing the nursing colonies are strong, and have been well prepared. Obviously the system is designed for use in breeding from the best colony one has. The colonies selected to nurse the transferred larvae can be any quality. . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:16:25 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: cell size discuussion In-Reply-To: > From: Torbjorn Schultz > Subject: varroa questions > > Hi Garth, Perhaps you can help me with some of my questions, which I sent= > away to the conference a few days ago? > Do yu know of any promising research and results according: > methods to use feromons to trap and reduce the varroa mites? > methods to use "natural enemies" and diseases against the mites? > breeding varroa resistent bees? Hi Torbjorn and All I actually know very little about varroa, but posted some stuff about cell size in reponse to a post by David Eyre from Ontario. He mentioned that some research has been done in Arizona keeping European honey bees in african dimension honeycombs (smaller cell size). A nuumber of interesting replies have come back so far, including one by Dr Rodriguez who has done much research on varroa and observed the mites in action. He mentions that the main time of infection is when infected bees enter cells to provision. He also mentioned that he does not see any merit in the system with present information, but that further info would be interesting - does anybody have access to this info? Today David Eyre (sorry if I spelt this wrong - I am using an old copy of pegasus as today so cannot check spelling from Bee-L) mentioned he was surprised that the brood cycle could be speeded up by decreasing cell size and that he had thought this would be under genetic control. So as far as I uunderstand it, the size of a bee is due to the amount of provisions (excuse grammar there) a bee cell can contain. Hence a larger cell will contain more provisions hence the fact it will produce a larger bee. I think the size of the genome of all bees is the same, which means that each cell division takes roughly the same time for all bees, so hence a big bee has more cells so it must stay in the cell for longer. This statement is neatly suported by the speed at which drones grow. (is it 11 or 14 days? Can't remember) but a drone has half the genetic material, therefore it can have it's cells diividing really fast to produce a big animal. Likewise a queen which is the same size, but has twice the genetic code (diploid) takes a few days longer to get that big. On the topic of little helpers in the hives eating the mites, I have a personal theory that the reason that varroa is not a problem in africa is because of all the little symbionts found in the hives. I have no background to make such a statement, except that I know varroa has been found in south africa and that hives that I have that have a large population of bee lice also have a high population of hive pseudoscorpions. (closes thing in shape to varroa that I have seen)Pictures of these pseudoscorpions will be put on my web page. They are really cute little creatures wiith huge pincers. The first time I saw them I though my hives had ticks - but a kind word from somebody that knew told me they were hive pseudoscorpions, that apparently do nothing in the hives. That does not explain why my healthiest hives have in excess of a hundred of these in the bottom, and why putting a little patch of sand in the bottom of a weak hive and some of the scorpions seems to improve it's health. (Maybe the fact I like the pseudoscorpions is because of my birthdate in early november or maybe because of observer bias, ormaybe there is something in it?) Anyhow, that is what I know. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University In general, generalisations are bad. Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:47:28 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: automatic uncappers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would appreciate some comments on the various types of automatic uncappers that available (Gunness, Cowan, Maxant...) Especially valuable would be comments from those who have experience with more than one type. Has anyone tried to build their own? My old Hive and Honeybee mentions a fixed vibrating knife that is heated that you run the frame against. I could imagine that might be an improvement over my steam plane. Many thanks in advance, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:00:27 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rett Thorpe Subject: Re: Freezing wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I am keeping my empty supers in an open carport > here in Colorado. > Is the nightly freezing enough to keep the wax > moths and larva from > getting started.. > > As long as this question has been asked. I'd like to tack my question on as well. I also stored my supers in a shed (Not open, but not moth proof either) I am in Utah and will also have a nightly freeze during winter months. I put each super in a plastic garbage bag. Will this inability to breathe create any problems? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Edward Beary Subject: Re: Freezing wax moths MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:00 AM 10/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >> Is the nightly freezing enough to keep the wax >> moths and larva from getting started.. >> > I also stored my supers in a shed (Not open, but >not moth proof either) I put each super in a plastic garbage bag. Will >this inability to breathe create any problems? > I have had larvae emerge in my stored supers in March or april when the temperature starts to warm. I am not that familiar with the lifecycle of this insect, but many moth species over winter as eggs or as pupae. In this state, especially under cold conditions, very little oxygen is needed. The larvae can easily chew through plastic bags. The cold will just control them until things warm up. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:46:18 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Crisco and menthol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:02 PM 24/10/97 -0600, you wrote: >This fall I used a mixture of Crisco and menthol to treat for tracheal >mites. The menthol pellets were dissolved in melted Crisco and the mixture >was soaked up in a roll of shop grade paper towels. One towel was placed >in the top of each hive. > >I will not know until spring how effective this treatment is, but I did >make an interesting observation a week or two later. The temperature is >quite cold now ( -2C to +7C ) but, since my hives are insulated above, the >bees generated enough heat to vaporise the menthol. The inner covers, >however, were cold enough to cause the menthol vapor to recrystallize in >long thin needles on the lower surface. On checking unused towels >with a magnifier, one can see the menthol has recrystallized there in very >tiny needles. > Of course it does. Everyone knows that's how menthol works. As the needles drop down they pierce and kill the mites. In more evolved bees they can actually break off these needles and attack the mites. Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:38:08 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: cell size discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excerpts from BEE-L wrote: > From: David Eyre > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > > > I think that this is probably due to the fact that the bees thus born are > > going to go through a more rapid metamorphosis. I do not know this, but > > would think that a fastidious hive would clean any > > This is an area that seems a trifle strange to me and we have discussed this > before. I agree to that. Tests done at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences in 92gives this result; No difference could be found in postcapping stages between the cell sizes. There was a tendency to smaller bees in smaller cells. Comparision of the reproduction of the mites in different cell sizes showed no significant differences if the material was divided into two groups, fertile and non fertile mother mites. There were significant diffrerences between cell sizes in offspring composition but the result do not indicate that the reproduction of mites was substantially influenced by cell size on worker bee brood. The whole study can be found on my homepage under . -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@kuai.se http://www.kuai.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:51:45 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Crisco and menthol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric. Neat "jab." Beekeepers need a strong sense of humor to alleviate the stings. Keep well. Best Regards. Dr. R. Eric Abell wrote: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:12:00 -0800 Reply-To: vcoppola@epix.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: automatic uncappers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler wrote: > > I would appreciate some comments on the various types of automatic uncappers that available (Gunness, Cowan, Maxant...)Especially valuable would be comments from those who have experience with more than one type.Has anyone tried to build their own? My old Hive and Honeybee mentions a fixed vibrating knife that is heated that you run the frame against. I could imagine that might be an improvement over my steam plane. Hi Stan, When selecting a power uncapper a major consideration is the number of frames you have to uncap. High capacity Cowan or Guiness machines would be inappropriate for just a few colonies but a a great benefit if you have hundreds or thousands of supers to uncap. Personaly I lean toward the Cowan system. The Cowan puts the frames on a conveyor so you don't have to handle the frames much. The vibrating knife you mention is known around here as a jiggle knife. I have'nt used one but a friend running about 700 colonies used a pair of them for years. I've seent the Maxant in use. It does a nice job but for the money is slow. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:06:24 -0600 Reply-To: BEEMAN52@worldnet.att.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ken Lawrence Subject: Re: automatic uncappers Comments: To: vcoppola@epix.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Vince Coppola > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: automatic uncappers > Date: Tuesday, October 28, 1997 11:12 PM > > Stan Sandler wrote: > > > > I would appreciate some comments on the various types of automatic uncappers that available (Gunness, Cowan, Maxant...)Especially valuable would be comments from those who have experience with more than one type.Has anyone tried to build their own? My old Hive and Honeybee mentions a fixed vibrating knife that is heated that you run the frame against. I could imagine that might be an improvement over my steam plane. > > Hi Stan, > When selecting a power uncapper a major consideration is the number of > frames you have to uncap. High capacity Cowan or Guiness machines would > be inappropriate for just a few colonies but a a great benefit if you > have hundreds or thousands of supers to uncap. Personaly I lean toward > the Cowan system. The Cowan puts the frames on a conveyor so you don't > have to handle the frames much. The vibrating knife you mention is known > around here as a jiggle knife. I have'nt used one but a friend running > about 700 colonies used a pair of them for years. I've seent the Maxant > in use. It does a nice job but for the money is slow. Hello Stan I just bought a used Cowen Mini Uncapper and I think it is great and it will stay ahead of you even putting the frames on the chain conveyor. It will uncap hivebody, super, or shallows at about 50 seconds per box. I uncapped about 1500 frames this summer and did not mess up one single frame. I am very pleased with my purchase. Ken Lawrence