========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:36:57 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: Queen Pheromone for shipping cages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just saw a short interview on a local morning show, here in Vancouver, Canada, that presented the work of Dr. Winston and Dr. Slesser from Simon Fraser University. They have isolated and synthesized the particular pheromone that makes a colony believe it is Queen rite. The substance is put in a small plastic container, and can be used to ship bees (happily) without a queen. the url for S.F.U. is http://www.sfu.ca/ There was not much other information, but I suppose it could also be used to make a colony think it was queen rite until a new queen was ordered. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:17:24 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Torbjorn Schultz Organization: BeeNet-Sverige Subject: little helpers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Garth! I got really happy to get your answer of one of my question alt= hough maybe my questions seem to be very ignorant and unwise. I just got some thougts, that perhaps there are something going on somewhere to find new = and promising approaches to the varroa problem. Research that I have yet only= heard very little of. Thanks so much for taking your time! I hope others will= be inspired to participate too. Have a fine day! Torbjorn * Svar p=E5 medd= elande i "BEE-L.INT" G> From: Garth G> Organization: Rhodes University South Africa G> Subject: Re: cell size discuussion >> From: Torbjorn Schultz >> Subject: varroa questions >> >> Hi Garth, Perhaps you can help me with some of my questions, >> which I sent=3D >> away to the conference a few days ago? >> Do yu know of any promising research and results according: >> methods to use feromons to trap and reduce the varroa mites? >> methods to use "natural enemies" and diseases against the >> mites? breeding varroa resistent bees? G> Hi Torbjorn and All G> I actually know very little about varroa, but posted some G> stuff about cell size in reponse to a post by David Eyre from G> Ontario. He mentioned that some research has been done in G> Arizona keeping European honey bees in african dimension G> honeycombs (smaller cell size). G> A nuumber of interesting replies have come back so far, G> including one by Dr Rodriguez who has done much research on G> varroa and observed the mites in action. He mentions that the G> main time of infection is when infected bees enter cells to G> provision. He also mentioned that he does not see any merit in G> the system with present information, but that further info G> would be interesting - does anybody have access to this info? G> Today David Eyre (sorry if I spelt this wrong - I am using an old G> copy of pegasus as today so cannot check spelling from Bee-L) G> mentioned he was surprised that the brood cycle could be G> speeded up by decreasing cell size and that he had thought G> this would be under genetic control. G> So as far as I uunderstand it, the size of a bee is due to the G> amount of provisions (excuse grammar there) a bee cell can G> contain. Hence a larger cell will contain more provisions G> hence the fact it will produce a larger bee. I think the size G> of the genome of all bees is the same, which means that each G> cell division takes roughly the same time for all bees, so G> hence a big bee has more cells so it must stay in the cell for G> longer. This statement is neatly suported by the speed at G> which drones grow. (is it 11 or 14 days? Can't remember) but a G> drone has half the genetic material, therefore it can have G> it's cells diividing really fast to produce a big animal. G> Likewise a queen which is the same size, but has twice the G> genetic code (diploid) takes a few days longer to get that G> big. G> On the topic of little helpers in the hives eating the mites, G> I have a personal theory that the reason that varroa is not a G> problem in africa is because of all the little symbionts found G> in the hives. I have no background to make such a statement, G> except that I know varroa has been found in south africa and G> that hives that I have that have a large population of bee G> lice also have a high population of hive pseudoscorpions. G> (closes thing in shape to varroa that I have seen)Pictures of G> these pseudoscorpions will be put on my web page. They are G> really cute little creatures wiith huge pincers. The first G> time I saw them I though my hives had ticks - but a kind word G> from somebody that knew told me they were hive G> pseudoscorpions, that apparently do nothing in the hives. That G> does not explain why my healthiest hives have in excess of a G> hundred of these in the bottom, and why putting a little patch G> of sand in the bottom of a weak hive and some of the scorpions G> seems to improve it's health. (Maybe the fact I like the G> pseudoscorpions is because of my birthdate in early november G> or maybe because of observer bias, ormaybe there is something G> in it?) G> Anyhow, that is what I know. G> Keep well G> Garth G> --- G> Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries G> 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis G> Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation G> 6139 G> Eastern Cape G> South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 G> 3rd year Biochemistry/Microbiology Rhodes University G> In general, generalisations are bad. G> Interests: Flii's and Bees. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:29:35 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lyra Halprin Subject: New Ag Internet Book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" NOTE: This list is mentioned on page 22 of the book... Internet Guide for Farmers, Extension Agents [Book excerpts on UC SAREP's Web site: http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu ] Farmers have joined business people and researchers worldwide in using the Internet, but are they finding the information they need for their farms? The University of California Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education Program (SAREP) has a new book to help them. "How to Find Agricultural Information on the Internet" shows farmers, ranchers, Extension agents, consultants and gardeners the basics of choosing an Internet provider, figuring costs, using electronic mail, getting answers from e-mail discussion groups, searching the World Wide Web for practical information, finding graphics on the Web, and copying information from the 'Net for their own use. "Farmers are going beyond using computers just for bookkeeping," says Jill Shore Auburn, SAREP associate director and editor of the book by Mark Campidonica. "But many of them are unsure of the methods used to get good information off the Internet, and need basic 'how to do it' details. Our book does just that." Auburn says the new book is aimed at both beginning and intermediate Internet users, and walks readers through real-life examples of farmers looking for and copying information, posting questions to international user groups, and shows a university scientist answering client questions. Although it is aimed at the agricultural community, the book offers plenty of good beginning Internet information and is useful for anyone who wants to "log on." A recent USDA survey shows that more than 2 million computers are in use on farms of all sizes in the U.S., with 13 percent having access to the Internet. In California, 23 percent of the state's farmers have access to the Internet, almost twice the national average (highest: 31 percent, New Jersey; lowest: 4 percent, Louisiana and Mississippi). Purchase the book through University of California DANR Communication Services, 6701 San Pablo Ave., Oakland, CA 94608-1239 for $12 (add $3 handling + $0.99 Calif. tax). Checks payable to UC Regents. VISA, MasterCard or purchase orders: (800) 994-8849, (510) 642-2431; FAX: (510) 643-5470. [Excerpts on the SAREP Web Site: http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu ] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:05:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: >Hello This the first time I have asked for someone's opinion with there >experience with bees,not implying that it is not needed only that I >normally just read from the list and learn.This is my first year and >have one hive.I have two more setup for next year,anyway my question >is,I went to remove the honey super and install apistan strips in the >first and second deep supers,in removing the honey super I noticed they >were very upset,I was using a smoker which only upset them more. Etc. I have had the same experience when encountering two colonies (side-by-side) in the throes of death from varroa infestation. Chalkbrood prevailed, and the bees really had nothing left to defend. Although I inserted Apistan strips, both colonies were dead a month later --- still full of honey. Back in the 1950s we would have said those colonies had become "demoralized." Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "Discovery is to see what everyone else has seen, * * but to think what no one else has thought." * * --- Albert Szent-Gyorgyi * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:26:45 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Calif. Beekeepers Convention Comments: cc: AAPA-L@UNLVM.UNL.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To all who plan to attend the Calif. Beekeepers Convention in Ventura, CA the week of 18 November: Regrettably, I will not be able to attend this year (even though it is only 30 miles away). A year ago I obtained a CSBA calendar that indicated it would be held a week earlier. However, Robbin Thorp and I will be presenting the results of our research at a Pollinator Restoration symposium in Florida the week before. Not knowing the beekeeping conference had been moved, I arranged to spend a week in a research facility on Andros Island in the Bahamas after that symposium. For those of you who attend, please extend my greetings to those we might know in common. Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "Discovery is to see what everyone else has seen, * * but to think what no one else has thought." * * --- Albert Szent-Gyorgyi * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:17:00 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Torbjorn Schultz Organization: BeeNet-Sverige Subject: research on feromons in ordr to trap varroa mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the worldwide struggle to find longterm solutions of the varroa problem I would like to put forward some questions: Are there any promising research and results according: methods to use feromons to trap and reduce the mites? methods to use "natural enemies" and diseases against the mites? breeding varroa resistent bees? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:54:32 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Do bees heal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've been thinking of the latest recommendations regarding Apistan - treat early so you have a few generations of mite free bees going into the winter. I got to be thinking of the bees who are the victims of mite attack prior to treatment, who after treatment may have the attacking mite killed. Do the mite inflicted wounds heal or are the bees left with festering sores? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:17:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Edd Chamberlin Subject: Re: Crisco and menthol Boy oh boy oh boy... On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:46:18 -0700 Eric Abell writes: >At 12:02 PM 24/10/97 -0600, you wrote: >>This fall I used a mixture of Crisco and menthol to treat for >tracheal >>mites. The menthol pellets were dissolved in melted Crisco and the >mixture >>was soaked up in a roll of shop grade paper towels. One towel was >placed >>in the top of each hive. >> >>I will not know until spring how effective this treatment is, but I >did >>make an interesting observation a week or two later. The temperature >is >>quite cold now ( -2C to +7C ) but, since my hives are insulated >above, the >>bees generated enough heat to vaporise the menthol. The inner covers, >>however, were cold enough to cause the menthol vapor to recrystallize >in >>long thin needles on the lower surface. On checking unused towels >>with a magnifier, one can see the menthol has recrystallized there in >very >>tiny needles. >> > >Of course it does. Everyone knows that's how menthol works. As the >needles >drop down they pierce and kill the mites. In more evolved bees they >can >actually break off these needles and attack the mites. > >Eric Abell >Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 >Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 >eabell@compusmart.ab.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:19:11 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: automatic uncappers In-Reply-To: <199710281047.GAA22629@bud.peinet.pe.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Stan Sandler wrote: > I would appreciate some comments on the various types of automatic uncappers > that available (Gunness, Cowan, Maxant...) I used a steam heated jiggle knife uncapper for several years. It works quite well but cuts a lot of comb off and produces a lot of wax cappings which are a nuisance to process. The bees must then rebuild the comb, which I believe is a detriment to honey production. We also found it necessary to scratch the low spots in the combs which the knife missed. The steam generator is another item which is expensive and a nuisance to operate. We quit using the jiggle knife some years ago and just use a scratcher to uncap. It is definitely slower than the power uncappers but two people can easily keep ahead of a 20 frame extractor. One person alone can do about 6 supers an hour, two persons probably about 15. The simplicity of the system is worth a lot. Since our honey house is quite small, the less equipment we have (consistent with reasonable efficiency) the better. Another consideration is the capital involved. It is the bees that make the money and capital is probably better invested in them until you are really overpowered with the honey pouring in! Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:17:22 -0800 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Do bees heal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, The bees who have the mites or had mites are not the issue. You want as many bees who have not had mites to go through the winter. So if you can get several months of mite free bees by treating early, you are better off than treating late. As far as the "wounds", I leave that to more experienced beekeepers than I, but a good guess is that they are not in great shape for the winter and will probably be the first to die. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Aaron Morris wrote: > I've been thinking of the latest recommendations regarding Apistan - > treat early so you have a few generations of mite free bees going into > the winter. I got to be thinking of the bees who are the victims of > mite attack prior to treatment, who after treatment may have the > attacking mite killed. Do the mite inflicted wounds heal or are the > bees left with festering sores? > > Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:43:17 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Do bees heal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > The bees who have the mites or had mites are not the issue. > Yes, I understand that the "best" population to overwinter is a population that has not had to deal with mite attack. But my question (the issue over which I wonder) is do attacked bees get over the attack once the attacker is defeated? Varroa attack bees via a "drill like" structure of their mouth parts that they use to puncture bees' exoskeleton allowing the vampire mite to suck bees' hemolymph. Speculation is that these puncture wounds are the avenues/entry points for virus attack. My question is, do these puncture wounds heal over once the varroa and their drill-like mouthpart is removed, or does the door remains open for virus attack once the mites are gone? If the answer is no, the puncture wounds don't heal and the door remains open, then all the more reason to treat early. I guess as far as my question goes, varroa is a red herring. I could just as well have asked, if a bee gets cut does the cut heal? However, I ask because I am wondering about virus invasion. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Do bees heal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi friends. Nice thought, Aaron. I think that bees get very weak from loss of hemolymph to the varmints. Since mites feed between the abdominal plates, I think that once they are removed that the plates cover the "wounds." If the bees can recover probably depends on other factors such as age, degree of parasitism, nourishment, etc. But, your questions is intriguing enough to warrant examining parasitized bees under high power microscopy. Thinking about your questions, makes me wonder about the possibility of the mites "bite" wounds serving as ways for germs to invade the systems of an already weakened individual. We know that most colonies that succumb to mite infestation end up with secondary infections such as viruses, nosema, etc. Food for thought!!! Best wishes. Dr. R. Aaron Morris wrote: > I've been thinking of the latest recommendations regarding Apistan - > treat early so you have a few generations of mite free bees going into > the winter. I got to be thinking of the bees who are the victims of > mite attack prior to treatment, who after treatment may have the > attacking mite killed. Do the mite inflicted wounds heal or are the > bees left with festering sores? > > Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:23:50 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore Subject: Decapping Fork Technique Question I'm curious about the various techniques used when decapping frames with a decapping fork. I had always assummed that one just scratched the cappings with the points to the fork. However the first person I saw using one was "shoveling" the capping by sliding the fork tines under the cappings and lifting. After a number of interations that tines were scraped of into the capping bucket and the process repeated. The "damage" to the comb was minimal and the wax taken had very little honey. Granted he was only doing a few supers. Anyone care to describe their decapping fork technique? Regards, Jim Moore 4 Hives Central Ma. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:56:26 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Viruses and Varroa In-Reply-To: <971029.144446.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, Brenda Ball has been carrying out research into the role that viruses play in Varroa infestation, information about this fascinating subject can be found at the International Bee Research Association's site - http://www.res.bbsrc.ac.uk/entnem/research/chdpage1.htm Well worth a look! Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:18:05 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rett Thorpe Subject: Re: Decapping Fork Technique Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I'm curious about the various techniques used when decapping frames > with a decapping fork. I had always assumed that one just scratched > the cappings > with the points to the fork. However the first person I saw using one > was > "shoveling" the capping > I used a decapping fork this year for the first time. I used the method you assumed, that is scratching the cappings with the points. This worked very well, and there was almost no damage to the comb. I only had two supers to uncap but it went very fast. I can't imagine that a uncapping knife could be much faster. It only took a few seconds on each frame to scratch the entire surface. I bought the fork thinking I would just use it this year and then next year get a knife, but this system was so clean, fast, and easy that I have no intentions of upgrading unless I get many more hives than I currently have. I didn't try the other technique you mentioned, but I think it would cause more damage to the comb, and the fork would get full of wax (requiring cleaning) much more often. Give it a try I think you'll be impressed, and you don't have much to lose a new fork is only about $4 Good Luck Rett Thorpe SLC, Utah first year, two hives ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:44:00 -0500 Reply-To: beesbest@ne.mediaone.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kathy Hough Subject: Any Maniacs with Comb Honey?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all, Recently I was at a festival with our beeswax candles and honey and met a woman who's been looking in the Portland, ME area for some time now for a year-round supplier of small quantities of comb honey. She bought some from us, but it is MA honey and not her first choice. I will forward all replies to her. Thanks, Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Ways to keep bees over winter in cold climate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bob: I am sure that you are going to receive a lot of well-intended suggestions on this subject. Here is my contribution: I would place the hive in a corner of the garage or in the basement if the temperature drops yet it does not freeze. The idea is that you should be able to periodically open your hive briefly to remove the bees that you need. You should be able to accomplish the task rather rapidly without disturbing the cluster and without risking "chilling" the cluster. Good luck. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:10:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: jmortier Subject: planting borage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am looking for a bit of advice on planting a suitable flowering crop on my 12 acres in southern British Columbia. Borage seems to be a good contender as it flowers for a long period and is self propagating. Winters are wet and warm on the west coast ( Seattle like climate) and the bees are still visiting the handfull of experimental borage plants that I planted in the spring. Is this a good "bee" plant (they seem to like it) and where am I able to get enough seeds for my needs? What does borage honey taste like? Any other plants worthy of note? Seed availability? Has anyone done a study showing how many acres are needed to support a hive? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:17:33 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: wd6esz Subject: Queens this time of year? In-Reply-To: <199710281929.LAA27442@schilling.ucdavis.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anybody know of a place that still has queens for sale this time of year? I have heard that Kona Queen Co. in Hawaii does, but they are not ansering their phone. Anybody else have any queens? Rich wd6esz@quick.net (714)851-8176 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:30:32 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: Queens this time of year? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes the Hawaii breeders do have some queens . try Randel Brasher at 1-808-328-9249 with Big Island Queens. Remember the time difference. If you want yet another source of Hawaii queens e-mail me direct for the Hawaii Queen company. I do not have their number at the moment. Come visit . Aloha from Hawaii Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton hihoney@ilhawaii.net 808-964-5401 Hale Lamalani { House of Heavenly Light } {Hawaii Std. Time} Bed & Breakfast www.alohamall.com/hamakua/lamalani.htm Hawaiian Honey House { Beekeepers & Honey Packers } 100 % HAWAII HONEY www.alohamall.com/hamakua/hihoney.htm 27-703 A. Ka`ie`ie Rd., Papa`ikou, Hawaii 96781 " ALOHA ALL " " The Beehive, the Fountain of Youth and Health " ---------- > From: wd6esz > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Queens this time of year? > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 8:17 PM > > Does anybody know of a place that still has queens for sale this time of > year? I have heard that Kona Queen Co. in Hawaii does, but they are not > ansering their phone. Anybody else have any queens? > > Rich > > wd6esz@quick.net > (714)851-8176 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:51:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Do bees heal? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Aaron: > Do the mite inflicted wounds heal or are the >bees left with festering sores? I am no expert but I offer the following observation: There is a difference between some level of damage control and actual healing (regeneration). In the lobsters, which are also arthropods, but class crustacea instead of insecta, a damaged appendage does undergo enough damage control that all the fluids and tissues do not escape from the broken chitin. But actual regeneration only takes place when moulting occurs. Then a new appendage begins to grow with cell differentiation. Since adult bees do not moult I doubt if they can "heal". Since the queen is potentially a long living individual, the question has some economic significance. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:14:24 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Beekeeping Videos In-Reply-To: <199710271925.TAA22325@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <199710271925.TAA22325@mail.iol.ie>, Computer Software Solutions Ltd writes >Hi All > >I have recently spoken to a beekeeping supplier here in Dublin Ireland >regarding videos on beekeeping. He told me that there was very little >available. I am wondering if anybody can suggest a video which gives >training on bees. Tom, Contact either Thornes (thorne@dial.pipex.com) or Steele & Brodie (steele&brodie@taynet.co.uk). They supply a range of beekeeping videos. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Snail : Toddington, Bedfordshire. LU5 6QF England Tel/Fax : +44 (0)1525 875570 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:20:20 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Triona Burke Subject: Re: Penncap-M bee losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit andy i have just discovered a bee alphabet ---------- > From: Andy Nachbar > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Penncap-M bee losses > Date: 20 October 1997 16:23 > > At 05:30 PM 10/20/97 GMT+2, you wrote: > >Can anyone help me with any of the following questions? > > > >(1) Is Penncap-M still used in the USA, Europe, Australia - and on > >what crops? > > Yes, about the same as in your area, can't say for sure as I don't have a > label for the product close at hand. > > >(2) What are the spray conditions (pertaining to bees) for its use? > > Again, without the label it would be a guess but you can be sure it has the > normal precautions including "don't apply to blooming crops when bees are > in the field", or some such statement. > > >(3) Are there still honeybee losses due to Penncap-M? > > Yes of course, maybe the latest being reported in Colorado. > > The main danger from this formulation of parathion (sp) is that the size of > the material when it dries is about the same as that of pollen and the bees > bring it in with the pollen and it kills them until that pollen is used up. > > One problem we have in the USA is that there is no Federal reporting > requirements for pesticide bee kills. There is a program to record bee > losses but because of the fact it is not required to report them, for > example only one bee kill was reported from pesticides for California in > 1995, the same for Arizona like California a state that most beekeepers > would feel very lucky if they had only one pesticide loss for each yard per > season. > > Good Luck, with any use of Penncap-M you will need all you can get. > > IMHO > ttul, the OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:19:27 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Triona Burke Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_.01=A2/lb_National_Honey_Board?= Comments: To: ajwelk@ibm.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Plaese do not send me anymore bee messages ---------- From: Al Welk To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: .01=A2/lb National Honey Board Date: 17 October 1997 13:04 Walter Patton wrote: > Is everyone ready for the national honey board to start collecting .01 > cents/lb from the producer as well as the first handler. Thats whats going to > happen. Walter, (et al) I'm not sure of your argument, so hopefully I can be educated here. I just got some thing from the NHB and was very pleased with their literature and items. I don't produce enough honey but I work with a man who yielded about 5600lbs this year. At .01=A2/lb he would putt out $56.00US. If he get his asking $3.00/lb he grosses $16,800. He would invest 0.3%, that's three tenths of one percent of his gross towards advertising, access to marketing information. That's less than what he has to pay for his business license. I also believe that being a member is totally voluntary. OK I'm naive on this but I was willing to pay the NHB just to get some of the free to members information that they have. It'a a great sourse of educational material for when I go to schools and things. Educate us newbees .... What is really so bad about the National Honey Board? Al Welk - Atlanta, GA, 2nd year, own 2 hives/ work 200 with a friend. ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:18:41 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Triona Burke Subject: Re: Bees and Race Comments: To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit please do not send me anymore bee messages ---------- > From: \Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Bees and Race > Date: 23 October 1997 23:32 > > Hi friends. > Regarding getting stung while wearing a watch: I seldom wear veil or globes to > work my > bees. I wear a bee suite and veil when I work with unknown source bees until I > learn if > they are aggressive. I NEVER wear a watch when working bees,whether the watch > has a metalic or synthetic band. Sometimes I have forgotten and paid the > consequences: the bees strike my arm with the watch! As soon as I remove the > watch the bees stop stinging that arm. I think that the band is not the > culprit, its the vibrating mechanism of the watch that makes them irritable. > Might be worth testing it! > Best regards. > Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:11:25 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Triona Burke Subject: Re: Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do not send me anymore messages ---------- > From: Jerry J Bromenshenk > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Beekeeping > Date: 17 October 1997 14:10 > > At 09:29 AM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >A frind of mine from Arnold MD visited with me over the weekend. Since he > >was very interested in my bees I would like to refer him to several > >Beekeeping organizations in his area. I would appreciate any suggestions. > > > >Thanks, > >Ben > > > > > MD has state and county associations, where does your friend live? > Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. > Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy > The University of Montana-Missoula > Missoula, MT 59812-1002 > E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu > Tel: 406-243-5648 > Fax: 406-243-4184 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:12:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "" Subject: Re: Beekeeping Videos Hi Several years ago I had a series of four video tapes converted to the PAL format used in Britain and Ireland. I still have a few on the shelf. They were in the Weekend Beekeeper Series. There are fur tapes, run $50 each or fur for $160.00 (this is what the converstion costs ran ten years ago). Please advise. Larry Connor @ Wicwas Press ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:31:50 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Decapping Fork Technique Question In-Reply-To: <9710292123.AA08658@us9rmc.zko.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Jim Moore wrote: > I'm curious about the various techniques used when decapping frames with > a decapping fork. I had always assummed that one just scratched the cappings > with the points to the fork. However the first person I saw using one was > "shoveling" the capping by sliding the fork tines under the cappings and > lifting. I have tried the shoveling method and I don't like it. You have to be careful to get the angle just right or it digs in. If you drag the fork across the comb it works just as well and the operation is completely mindless. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:34:22 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: Beekeeping Videos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can you please describe the contents of each of the videos as well as the length of each one? Thanks. Mart=EDn Braunstein Malka Caba=F1a Ap=EDcola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar ---------- > From: > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Beekeeping Videos > Date: jueves 30 de octubre de 1997 12:12 >=20 > Hi > Several years ago I had a series of four video tapes converted to the P= AL > format used in Britain and Ireland. I still have a few on the shelf. Th= ey > were in the Weekend Beekeeper Series. There are fur tapes, run $50 each or > fur for $160.00 (this is what the converstion costs ran ten years ago). > Please advise. > Larry Connor @ Wicwas Press ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:05:38 -0500 Reply-To: congaree@concentric.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Chris Kueny Organization: Congaree Wildflower Honey Subject: Re: planting borage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was an article in an old Bee Culture that reported old discussions about doing just that. The idea became unglued when it was discovered that Borage Honey tastes *bad*. You should be able to get a reprint of the article. jmortier wrote: > I am looking for a bit of advice on planting a suitable flowering crop > on my > 12 acres in southern British Columbia. Borage seems to be a good > contender > as it flowers for a long period and is self propagating. Winters are > wet and > warm on the west coast ( Seattle like climate) and the bees are still > visiting the handfull of experimental borage plants that I planted in > the > spring. Is this a good "bee" plant (they seem to like it) and where am > I > able to get enough seeds for my needs? What does borage honey taste > like? > Any other plants worthy of note? Seed availability? > Has anyone done a study showing how many acres are needed to support > a hive? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:29:23 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Do bees heal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Stan: I have never seen a queen with mites. May not have to worry about that either. I have seen queens parasitized by the bee louse. However, the bee louse is a beggar parasite and does not cause physical damage. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:12:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AW>From: Adrian Wenner >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:05:29 -0700 >Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! AW>Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: AW>>Hello This the first time I have asked for someone's opinion with th= ere >>experience with bees,not implying that it is not needed only that I >>normally just read from the list and learn.This is my first year and >>first and second deep supers,in removing the honey super I noticed th= ey >>were very upset,I was using a smoker which only upset them more. Etc. AW> I have had the same experience when encountering two colonies >(side-by-side) in the throes of death from varroa infestation. Chalkb= rood >prevailed, and the bees really had nothing left to defend. Although I >inserted Apistan strips, both colonies were dead a month later --- sti= ll >full of honey. AW> Back in the 1950s we would have said those colonies had become >"demoralized." Hello Adrian, Aside from the aggressive bees something that is nothing new in beekeeping and easily taken care of in most operations with stock selection and a good re-queening program, but I read that this beekeeper has selected to have his bees tested. I guess he is not aware or maybe in his area they do not do the good old "Afro Bee Slash and Burn" on suspected killer bee hives or maybe he is just trying to be a good citizen and has not met his first quarantine boss with star and gun at the ready who really does not care if he is a good citizen or not, but maybe he will get lucky and his bees will not be positive (for what). Back in the pre mite age those demoralized hives from the 1950's also died and in large numbers from time to time in many different areas in the US, and even good old beekeepers have had problems at different time. All this even before the first notice of chalk brood in fact records going back 80 or more years reflect large un-explained bee losses both in the west and east. I say un-explained, I meant to say not explained by the causes assigned them at the time. I suspect the only difference is that today when they die they have varroa and as the hive declines in the numbers of bees I would expect that the varroa numbers are magnified until at the end there is one or more varroa for each adult bee and a few left over for the queen. I suspect that a static number of varroa in a healthy hive translates in the same hive to a large number per bee in a declining hive populations for what ever the reason and may have nothing to do with the dynamics of the varroa populations but reflect the dynamics of a declining bee or host population. Changing the thread.... You have yet to tell us if all the feral hives on that island have disappeared after you introduced varroa into that feral population that never had them prior to your decision to introduce them. An interesting scientific approach but truly sad story of the deliberate despoiling of a clean bee environment with a know bee pest and maybe the only healthy population of feral bees in the US that was varroa free, now there are none according to what some would have us believe or at the lest one less. I wonder if those who want to set the clock back in the rest of the world, thinking of those who live upside down to us and who still have a use for honey buckets other then for honey, would consider releasing varroa to kill the non native honey bees from their national parks and forests. I guess they would have to change their bee importation laws to allow bees from the US but then I have received in the mail a regular envelope containing live varroa so I guess someone could air mail them some to get them started and bypass any bee importation laws. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- =FE QMPro 1.53 =FE Tight clothes increase a woman's circulation ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:56:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harry Bowie Subject: Looking for NUCs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am looking for a mail order source, in the United States, to buy 2, NEW ,wooden, 5 frame NUCs. The only catalog that I have that carries them is Brushy Mountain. They are out of stock and they do not think that they will have more till January. Are there any other sources? As this is most likely NOT of interest to all, please reply to me personally. Harry Bowie hjbowie@usit.net Want to Bee Beekeeper 0 Hives East Tennessee USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:18:04 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Mites on Queens Comments: To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net In-Reply-To: <34595093.FC2AAF2@norfolk.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:29 PM 10/30/97 -0500, \\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: >I have never seen a queen with mites. Varroa mites are common on queens as the population of the hive shrinks to the last 100 bees and the queen. I have seen photographs and heard 1st hand reports from Europe of as many as 16 varroa mites on one little old queen. >I have seen queens parasitized by the bee louse. However, the bee louse is a >beggar parasite and does not cause physical damage. You are ahead of me on that one as I have only seen one bee louse in 40+ years looking at bees here on the left coast and I am told that is about the average as they are not common here. I suspect they are around but have better hosts then honeybees but it has been awhile since I read up on them and remember none of their biology. ttul, OLd Andy the Beekeeper's Louse... (in annual retraining) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Decapping Fork Technique Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I'm curious about the various techniques used when decapping frames with >> a decapping fork. I had always assummed that one just scratched the cappings >> with the points to the fork. However the first person I saw using one was >> "shoveling" the capping by sliding the fork tines under the cappings and >> lifting. > >I have tried the shoveling method and I don't like it. You have to be >careful to get the angle just right or it digs in. If you drag the fork >across the comb it works just as well and the operation is completely >mindless. > > >Donald Aitken While it does take a bit of practice, the "shovelling" method is less damaging on the combs. The scratching method cuts slices in the cappings and may not let all the honey out also) , but rips the walls of the comb apart and just wastes the bees time and energy. Regards, Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 11 colonies and counting ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:46:37 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Marlin (SCOTT) Kline" Subject: [Fwd: Very Agressive!!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am not aware of what your statement is suppose to imply?"Afro Bee Slash= "/Good Citizen/Quarantine Boss/I simply thought I was doing the correct procedur= e as far as having the Bees tested for Africanization?I contacted the Dept. Of Agr= iculture and they were in no hurry to inspect the hive,they were in a hurry for me= to send samples of the Bees.I don't know if you are implying that I should just b= urn the colonie or explain what I am missing here.?I did send samples to the stat= e IL.,the beekeeper as the state quoted called me and said if I was sending= in samples that there was no reason for him to inspect the hive and he calle= d after the state explained that he would not be calling me,one reason was he is = 80 miles away.??I did state that this is my first year as a beekeeper,so I am open= to any advice,But I am curious to the quarantine boss with star and gun comment. Thank You Andy Nachbaur wrote: > AW>From: Adrian Wenner > >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:05:29 -0700 > >Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! > > AW>Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: > > AW>>Hello This the first time I have asked for someone's opinion with = there > >>experience with bees,not implying that it is not needed only that I > >>normally just read from the list and learn.This is my first year an= d > >>first and second deep supers,in removing the honey super I noticed = they > >>were very upset,I was using a smoker which only upset them more. E= tc. > > AW> I have had the same experience when encountering two colonies > >(side-by-side) in the throes of death from varroa infestation. Chal= kbrood > >prevailed, and the bees really had nothing left to defend. Although= I > >inserted Apistan strips, both colonies were dead a month later --- s= till > >full of honey. > > AW> Back in the 1950s we would have said those colonies had become > >"demoralized." > > Hello Adrian, > > Aside from the aggressive bees something that is nothing new in > beekeeping and easily taken care of in most operations with stock > selection and a good re-queening program, but I read that this beekeepe= r > has selected to have his bees tested. I guess he is not aware or maybe > in his area they do not do the good old "Afro Bee Slash and Burn" on > suspected killer bee hives or maybe he is just trying to be a good > citizen and has not met his first quarantine boss with star and gun at > the ready who really does not care if he is a good citizen or not, but > maybe he will get lucky and his bees will not be positive (for what). > > Back in the pre mite age those demoralized hives from the 1950's also > died and in large numbers from time to time in many different areas in > the US, and even good old beekeepers have had problems at different > time. All this even before the first notice of chalk brood in fact > records going back 80 or more years reflect large un-explained bee > losses both in the west and east. I say un-explained, I meant to say no= t > explained by the causes assigned them at the time. > > I suspect the only difference is that today when they die they have > varroa and as the hive declines in the numbers of bees I would expect > that the varroa numbers are magnified until at the end there is one or > more varroa for each adult bee and a few left over for the queen. I > suspect that a static number of varroa in a healthy hive translates in > the same hive to a large number per bee in a declining hive populations > for what ever the reason and may have nothing to do with the dynamics > of the varroa populations but reflect the dynamics of a declining bee > or host population. > > Changing the thread.... > > You have yet to tell us if all the feral hives on that island have > disappeared after you introduced varroa into that feral population that > never had them prior to your decision to introduce them. An interesting > scientific approach but truly sad story of the deliberate despoiling of= a > clean bee environment with a know bee pest and maybe the only > healthy population of feral bees in the US that was varroa free, now > there are none according to what some would have us believe or at the > lest one less. > > I wonder if those who want to set the clock back in the rest of the > world, thinking of those who live upside down to us and who still have = a > use for honey buckets other then for honey, would consider releasing > varroa to kill the non native honey bees from their national parks and > forests. I guess they would have to change their bee importation laws > to allow bees from the US but then I have received in the mail a regula= r > envelope containing live varroa so I guess someone could air mail them > some to get them started and bypass any bee importation laws. > > ttul, the OLd Drone > > (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document > in any form, or to print for any use. > > (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. > > --- > =FE QMPro 1.53 =FE Tight clothes increase a woman's circulation ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:24:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: Do bees heal? In-Reply-To: <971029.144446.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:43 PM 10/29/97 EST, Aaron Morris wrote: >Varroa attack bees via a "drill like" structure of their mouth parts >that they use to puncture bees' exoskeleton allowing the vampire mite >to suck bees' hemolymph. Speculation is that these puncture wounds are >the avenues/entry points for virus attack. >My question is, do these puncture wounds heal over once the varroa and their >drill-like mouthpart is removed, or does the door remains open for virus >attack once the mites are gone? >If the answer is no, the puncture wounds don't heal and the door remains >open, then all the more reason to treat early. Well Arron I was going to let this thread die, but not sure if you got an answer so I will confuse you with one. 1st research in the "lab" has demonstrated that bee virus of one kind or another can be introduced via puncture wounds the size of those made by Varroa, but NOT by the other mites internal or external. BUT this has not been demonstrated in the field because no bees have been found that do not have one or many of the virus present. Bee virus of all kinds are world wide and one only has to look to find them and that is a/or the problem other then understanding them when you do find them which as far as I can determine few do other then to identify them. There are NO cures for any of the common honeybee virus and none is expected in this life time or soon but looking for them is always on going as to find one has implications far beyond honeybee science. There are things that can be done to reduce or overcome the damage done by virus and they all require good bee pasture and time and are well known by most beekeepers and called the BM, or bee movement and bee management such as the introduction of a queen or a nuc taken from hives not suffering symptoms of virus. >I guess as far as my question goes, varroa is a red herring. I could just as >well have asked, if a bee gets cut does the cut heal? The good news is that yes adult bees can heal themselves and can also do well with missing parts with the exception of those lucky(?) drones who mate with our queens as they all seem to die within a few hours of doing that job the same as those would be killer bees who prick our skins and leave the evidence of their crime and fly off to die but not without buzzing you a few times and attracting other bees to the live target. I can't count the times I have crushed a queen between my swollen fingers only to return weeks latter to find her doing well but looking like a broken egg. It is quite common to find queens with legs and wings missing or broken, and dents in their sides and for a fact most queens that are shipped in queen cages with wire screen are subject to foot damage or worse. All this does not seem to hamper them in their work. >However, I ask because I am wondering about virus invasion. Personally I do not think there is a real good correlation between any virus and Varroa mites, if there were we would be reading of horrendous losses in areas of the world that have virus and Varroa and are able to at the same time keep productive bees without chemical treatments for Varroa, and AS no area of the world that has bees has been found to be free of bee virus and most reports that say they are usually from areas that have not looked very close for one reason or another. Honeybees have so many virus associated with them that some are little known and yet to really be discovered. Even queen bees have virus that can make them useless and I would not be surprised to find drones have virus that render them less then a drone if you catch my drift. I am sure that one or more of the virus are responsible for much of the un-explained loss that takes out large apiaries of bees or even large areas but so far no one has a real handle on how this happens, like what triggers it and why it seems to come and go sometimes never to return and moves from east to west and south. I do believe that there are some predictors that can be observed in these unlucky hives for some of the virus that cause complete collapse and one of these seen here is large numbers of "hairless" bees. If seen late in the season those hives will decline dramatically in the winter and die by spring. Hairless or shinny black bees which are "not old bees" may be bees that are infected with one or more virus and the hair is removed by other bees, some say... but that's getting far out and would require some skills I am not sure bees have. IMHO, ttul, the OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:31:57 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: CAlif Beekeeping Assoc meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" IS there any information or schedule that could be posted on this list about this convention? Thanks to Adrian for reminding me about this program. Paul Cronshaw DC Hobby beekeeper Santa Barbara CA ************* Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:26:45 -0700 From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Calif. Beekeepers Convention To all who plan to attend the Calif. Beekeepers Convention in Ventura, CA the week of 18 November: Regrettably, I will not be able to attend this year (even though it is only 30 miles away). A year ago I obtained a CSBA calendar that indicated it would be held a week earlier. However, Robbin Thorp and I will be presenting the results of our research at a Pollinator Restoration symposium in Florida the week before. Not knowing the beekeeping conference had been moved, I arranged to spend a week in a research facility on Andros Island in the Bahamas after that symposium. For those of you who attend, please extend my greetings to those we might know in common. Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:42:01 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Bee Swarms continue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This posting prompted me to think about what is happening in my beekeeping life. I am still getting swarm calls at this time of year in Santa Barbara. The sizes of swarms range from fist size to soccer ball size. All have queens. I am wondering if these swarms are the result of mites. The bees are breaking the mite breeding cycle by swarming at thislate in the season. I understand this is a trait of the AHB. Perhaps we are seeing survival of the fittest occuring in the local bee population. ********* Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:17:00 +0200 From: Torbjorn Schultz Subject: research on feromons in ordr to trap varroa mites In the worldwide struggle to find longterm solutions of the varroa problem I would like to put forward some questions: Are there any promising research and results according: methods to use feromons to trap and reduce the mites? methods to use "natural enemies" and diseases against the mites? breeding varroa resistent bees? ------------------------------ Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:44:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Halloween Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Trick or treat. Oct 31 is Halloween in the US. As I am a High school teacher, I will be dressing up as a beekeeper. This will also give a great opportunity to give a lecture on bees and beekeeping to my students. :) Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:24:37 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: [Fwd: Very Aggressive!!] In-Reply-To: <345962AC.64C9934C@interaccess.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:46 PM 10/30/97 -0600, Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: >I am not aware of what your statement is suppose to imply?"Afro Bee Slash"/Good Citizen/Quarantine Boss/I simply thought I was doing the correct procedure as far as having the Bees tested for Africanization? Hello Scott, 'Water under de bridge, please do let us know how it turns out for you. I expect that you will still have your aggressive hives and have to do what the rest of us do when we find aggressive hives and that is to learn to live with them or re-queen them next spring if they survive the winter. The real cost to check one hive for African genes can be over $100.00 per test and the results even then will not have anything to do with any bees being aggressive or not as that test has no yet been invented. >I contacted the Dept. Of Agriculture and they were in no hurry to inspect the >hive, they were in a hurry for me to send samples of the Bees. I don't know if >you are implying that I should just burn the colonie or explain what I am >missing here.? Aggressive hives are a normal everyday occurrence in honeybees. Just the day to day change in the weather can cause any hive to become more aggressive for a few hours or days. The normal thing to do is to re-queen any hive that is too aggressive to handle and that is what I would advise you to do. Turning yourself into the bee police will not change the temper of your hives but it could cause a lot of unnecessary grief for yourself and neighboring beekeepers if they were to decide to take action to relieve you of your problem bees and to protect your neighbors from bad seed from your bees by taking their's too. I don't know what plans your state has for the "Afro Bees" and they may be like what we have in California which is a "secret quarantine" plan based on the number of bee caused deaths per week or month. So far the plan is so secret that no one really knows what it is, but we do know it changes from day to day like the weather. Right now it seems that California has acknowledge that we are infested with African Bees and thats it..end of story. Interesting that only feral hives are being tested now. Of course the last time we tested large numbers of hivebees we did find out that if you check any one hive enough times over a period of months it will turn up positive for African bees even if the queen was of the best Northern California breeding stock. >I did send samples to the state IL.,the beekeeper as the state quoted called >me and said if I was sending in samples that there was no reason for him to >inspect the hive and he called after the state explained that he would not be >calling me,one reason was he is 80 miles away. Yeah, and that would also cause some real work and maybe even some sweat and bee stings, always much easier to send them to the lab to see if they measure up using the same science used in Germany during WW II to identify those undesirables among us, and if they do then comes the genetic tests not good enough to convict OJ, but for sure has caused a lot of beekeepers real grief. >But I am curious to the quarantine boss with star and gun comment. Some bee cops dress up like Mexican generals, with big shinny badges, uniforms and cowboy hat and boots, Arizona has uniforms that few would ever been seen in other then when ordered to wear it at a official function. I am not sure if any have the right to pack iron yet but every few years an attempt is made to give them that power in our California state legislature which as so far turned them down. Can't you see some poor beekeeper being shot to death because he would not open his hives to a armed bee cop? But then beekeepers do have the right to go armed and many do now, so the bee cops say. ttul, the OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:34:30 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Marlin (SCOTT) Kline" Subject: Re: [Fwd: Very Aggressive!!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your response. Have a lot to learn. Andy Nachbar wrote: > At 10:46 PM 10/30/97 -0600, Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: > > >I am not aware of what your statement is suppose to imply?"Afro Bee > Slash"/Good Citizen/Quarantine Boss/I simply thought I was doing the > correct procedure as far as having the Bees tested for Africanization? > > Hello Scott, > > 'Water under de bridge, please do let us know how it turns out for you. I > expect that you will still have your aggressive hives and have to do what > the rest of us do when we find aggressive hives and that is to learn to > live with them or re-queen them next spring if they survive the winter. The > real cost to check one hive for African genes can be over $100.00 per test > and the results even then will not have anything to do with any bees being > aggressive or not as that test has no yet been invented. > > >I contacted the Dept. Of Agriculture and they were in no hurry to inspect > the >hive, they were in a hurry for me to send samples of the Bees. I don't > know if >you are implying that I should just burn the colonie or explain > what I am >missing here.? > > Aggressive hives are a normal everyday occurrence in honeybees. Just the > day to day change in the weather can cause any hive to become more > aggressive for a few hours or days. The normal thing to do is to re-queen > any hive that is too aggressive to handle and that is what I would advise > you to do. Turning yourself into the bee police will not change the temper > of your hives but it could cause a lot of unnecessary grief for yourself > and neighboring beekeepers if they were to decide to take action to relieve > you of your problem bees and to protect your neighbors from bad seed from > your bees by taking their's too. > I don't know what plans your state has for the "Afro Bees" and they may be > like what we have in California which is a "secret quarantine" plan based > on the number of bee caused deaths per week or month. So far the plan is so > secret that no one really knows what it is, but we do know it changes from > day to day like the weather. Right now it seems that California has > acknowledge that we are infested with African Bees and thats it..end of > story. Interesting that only feral hives are being tested now. Of course > the last time we tested large numbers of hivebees we did find out that if > you check any one hive enough times over a period of months it will turn up > positive for African bees even if the queen was of the best Northern > California breeding stock. > > >I did send samples to the state IL.,the beekeeper as the state quoted > called >me and said if I was sending in samples that there was no reason > for him to >inspect the hive and he called after the state explained that > he would not be >calling me,one reason was he is 80 miles away. > > Yeah, and that would also cause some real work and maybe even some sweat > and bee stings, always much easier to send them to the lab to see if they > measure up using the same science used in Germany during WW II to identify > those undesirables among us, and if they do then comes the genetic tests > not good enough to convict OJ, but for sure has caused a lot of beekeepers > real grief. > > >But I am curious to the quarantine boss with star and gun comment. > > Some bee cops dress up like Mexican generals, with big shinny badges, > uniforms and cowboy hat and boots, Arizona has uniforms that few would ever > been seen in other then when ordered to wear it at a official function. I > am not sure if any have the right to pack iron yet but every few years an > attempt is made to give them that power in our California state legislature > which as so far turned them down. Can't you see some poor beekeeper being > shot to death because he would not open his hives to a armed bee cop? But > then beekeepers do have the right to go armed and many do now, so the bee > cops say. > > ttul, the OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:45:26 -0500 Reply-To: beesbest@ne.mediaone.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kathy Hough Subject: Re: [Fwd: Very Agressive!!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Marlin(SCOTT) Kline, I wouldn't worry about it. It sounds like you did the right things, if anything you erred to the side of caution and IMHO, that is a good thing. As for Andy Nachbaur's other comments about "Afro Bee Slash and Burn" "quarantine boss with star and gun at the ready"; it appears to me that Andy has some problem with the current method of quarantine being used in this country to attempt to stop/slow the spread of african honeybees (perhaps this has been discussed at length in the past? it doesn't really matter). Along the same vein, I recall an earlier post in which he advises someone looking for African honeybee stock to breed in the US, that he contact some of the guys behind quarantine lines to get AHB breeding stock. I figured when no one blasted him for that (IMO irresponsible) post, that most everyone here on BEE-L had come to appreciate Andy for his forwarding of other peoples info, press releases, etc. but had learned to ignore much of what he personally had to say (I was lucky to have been forewarned). Scott, there are many who post good info to this list, make referrals to good sources, and quote many of the best beekeeping minds of today (both in the scientific community and in the practical world of beekeeping). David Green / Pollinator, Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk, Andrew Matheson, Richard Bonney, & Larry Connor are a few of the better known names that have posted here in the last few weeks whose info I trust and whose opinions are usually founded on fact. There are even more people with various levels of experience who post to this list, who have good information to give to others and who share it with all of the appropriate qualifiers (eg: in my experience.. i read this there.. someone i respect told me.. i've done this for x years.. in my region of the world.. etc.). These are the types of people who's info you'd do well to read and perhaps respond to... ignoring the rest. Sorry folks, it's not usually my style to blast someone. As I expect there'll be more than a few flames for this, to keep the clutter down on the list, send 'em direct to beesbest@mediaone.net. Kathy Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: > I am not aware of what your statement is suppose to imply?"Afro Bee > Slash"/Good > Citizen/Quarantine Boss/I simply thought I was doing the correct > procedure as far > as having the Bees tested for Africanization?I contacted the Dept. Of > Agriculture > and they were in no hurry to inspect the hive,they were in a hurry for > me to send > samples of the Bees.I don't know if you are implying that I should > just burn the > colonie or explain what I am missing here.?I did send samples to the > state > IL.,the beekeeper as the state quoted called me and said if I was > sending in > samples that there was no reason for him to inspect the hive and he > called after > the state explained that he would not be calling me,one reason was he > is 80 miles > away.??I did state that this is my first year as a beekeeper,so I am > open to any > advice,But I am curious to the quarantine boss with star and gun > comment. > > Thank You > > Andy Nachbaur wrote: > > > AW>From: Adrian Wenner > > >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:05:29 -0700 > > >Subject: Re: Very Agressive!! > > > > AW>Marlin (SCOTT) Kline wrote: > > > > AW>>Hello This the first time I have asked for someone's opinion > with there > > >>experience with bees,not implying that it is not needed only > that I > > >>normally just read from the list and learn.This is my first year > and > > >>first and second deep supers,in removing the honey super I > noticed they > > >>were very upset,I was using a smoker which only upset them > more. Etc. > > > > AW> I have had the same experience when encountering two colonies > > >(side-by-side) in the throes of death from varroa infestation. > Chalkbrood > > >prevailed, and the bees really had nothing left to defend. > Although I > > >inserted Apistan strips, both colonies were dead a month later > --- still > > >full of honey. > > > > AW> Back in the 1950s we would have said those colonies had become > > > >"demoralized." > > > > Hello Adrian, > > > > Aside from the aggressive bees something that is nothing new in > > beekeeping and easily taken care of in most operations with stock > > selection and a good re-queening program, but I read that this > beekeeper > > has selected to have his bees tested. I guess he is not aware or > maybe > > in his area they do not do the good old "Afro Bee Slash and Burn" on > > > suspected killer bee hives or maybe he is just trying to be a good > > citizen and has not met his first quarantine boss with star and gun > at > > the ready who really does not care if he is a good citizen or not, > but > > maybe he will get lucky and his bees will not be positive (for > what). > > > > Back in the pre mite age those demoralized hives from the 1950's > also > > died and in large numbers from time to time in many different areas > in > > the US, and even good old beekeepers have had problems at different > > time. All this even before the first notice of chalk brood in fact > > records going back 80 or more years reflect large un-explained bee > > losses both in the west and east. I say un-explained, I meant to say > not > > explained by the causes assigned them at the time. > > > > I suspect the only difference is that today when they die they have > > varroa and as the hive declines in the numbers of bees I would > expect > > that the varroa numbers are magnified until at the end there is one > or > > more varroa for each adult bee and a few left over for the queen. I > > suspect that a static number of varroa in a healthy hive translates > in > > the same hive to a large number per bee in a declining hive > populations > > for what ever the reason and may have nothing to do with the > dynamics > > of the varroa populations but reflect the dynamics of a declining > bee > > or host population. > > > > Changing the thread.... > > > > You have yet to tell us if all the feral hives on that island have > > disappeared after you introduced varroa into that feral population > that > > never had them prior to your decision to introduce them. An > interesting > > scientific approach but truly sad story of the deliberate despoiling > of a > > clean bee environment with a know bee pest and maybe the only > > healthy population of feral bees in the US that was varroa free, now > > > there are none according to what some would have us believe or at > the > > lest one less. > > > > I wonder if those who want to set the clock back in the rest of the > > world, thinking of those who live upside down to us and who still > have a > > use for honey buckets other then for honey, would consider releasing > > > varroa to kill the non native honey bees from their national parks > and > > forests. I guess they would have to change their bee importation > laws > > to allow bees from the US but then I have received in the mail a > regular > > envelope containing live varroa so I guess someone could air mail > them > > some to get them started and bypass any bee importation laws. > > > > ttul, the OLd Drone > > > > (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document > > in any form, or to print for any use. > > > > (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. > > > > --- > > ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Tight clothes increase a woman's circulation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: [Fwd: Very Agressive!!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's not start a popularity contest. And while we're at it, let's keep the >quoting< to a minimum..... Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 11 colonies and counting -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Hough To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: October 30, 1997 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Very Agressive!!] >As for Andy Nachbaur's other comments about "Afro Bee Slash and Burn" >Scott, there are many who post good info to this list, make referrals to >good sources, and quote many of the best beekeeping minds of today (both >in the scientific community and in the practical world of beekeeping). >David Green / Pollinator, Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk, Andrew Matheson, >Richard Bonney, & Larry Connor are a few of the better known names that >have posted here in the last few weeks whose info I trust and whose >opinions are usually founded on fact. There are even more people with >various levels of experience who post to this list, who have good >information to give to others and who share it with all of the >appropriate qualifiers (eg: in my experience.. i read this there.. >someone i respect told me.. i've done this for x years.. in my region of >the world.. etc.). These are the types of people who's info you'd do >well to read and perhaps respond to... ignoring the rest. > (excessive quoting deleted) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:42:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Augustus C.Skamarycz" Subject: Re: Looking for NUCs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:56 PM 10/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >I am looking for a mail order source, in the United States, to buy 2, NEW >,wooden, 5 frame NUCs. The only catalog that I have that carries them is >Brushy Mountain. They are out of stock and they do not think that they will >have more till January. Are there any other sources? As this is most >likely NOT of interest to all, please reply to me personally. >Harry Bowie hjbowie@usit.net > >Want to Bee Beekeeper >0 Hives >East Tennessee USA > >Try Rossman's in Moultrie, GA. They use Cypress which last. 1-800-333-7677. Good people. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:22:05 -0700 Reply-To: kaykaykay@kaykaykay.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: kaykaykay Organization: - Subject: Re: Decapping Fork Technique Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyone care to describe their decapping fork technique? Hi, I just use an old french fork that happens to have 5 thin almost sharp tines and scrape it across the top of the cells to crack them open. then I extract and strain with nothing more than a wire kitchen strainer... works for me with a few supers a year. akia@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: YoBozoBoy@AOL.COM Subject: Re: More on Crisco and menthol I don't want any more bee crap! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: YoBozoBoy@AOL.COM Subject: Let me outta here! Take me off your list. Take me off your list. Take me off your list. (Three's a charm!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: YoBozoBoy@AOL.COM Subject: Re: africa and bees Send your list (with my name on it) to africa with the bees. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Hartman B. Canon" Subject: Re[2]: Beekeeping Videos Comments: To: LJConnor@aol.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have seen charges advertised on the Internet of $25.00 each for conversion. In Kissimmee FL there is a shop in OLD TOWN that does it for $5.00/hr running time. H.B.Canon Geneve FL ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Beekeeping Videos Author: LJConnor@aol.com at ORL-SMTP-G Date: 1997.10.30 13:12 Hi Several years ago I had a series of four video tapes converted to the PAL format used in Britain and Ireland. I still have a few on the shelf. They were in the Weekend Beekeeper Series. There are fur tapes, run $50 each or fur for $160.00 (this is what the converstion costs ran ten years ago). Please advise. Larry Connor @ Wicwas Press ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:35:30 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Angus Stokes Subject: Re: planting borage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Spring 1997 No49 edition of that excellent (UK) magazine Beekeepers Quarterly, featured a full 3 page article about Borage as honeybee forage. The publisher of this magazine is Northern Bee Books, Scout Bottom Farm, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge West Yorks HX7 5JS, United Kingdom. Tel +44 1422 882751 Fax +44 1422 886157 > jmortier wrote: > > > I am looking for a bit of advice on planting a suitable flowering crop > > on my 12 acres in southern British Columbia. Borage seems to be a good > > contender as it flowers for a long period and is self propagating. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:39:20 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Angus Stokes Subject: Re: Looking for NUCs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry - this email came to me only today - thought it might be of interest - plastic not wood! Angus Stokes UK >Dear Angus: Thanks for your response. Our Nuc Box is made of a plastic currigated material, with handels, entrance, and will hold 4 to 5, 9 5/8" frames. This material has a uv rating for many years of use. Paul W. Jackson is the chief apiary inspector for the state of Texas. He over sees the montitering of movement by the Afercaized bees. The Nuc Boxes are set up along a line, spaced evenly for a 200 mile distance. They are baited with a phormanal scent and the swarms of bees take up resident. They are then gassed and put under microwscope for there identification. Mr. Jackson has over 1000 Nuc Boxes in use at Texas A&M University. His phone number is 409-845-9714. Mr. Jackson is very knowledgeable regarding the work he has done I would suggest that you contact him directly for further information. My distributator for the sale of our Nuc Boxes is Mann Lake Ltd. Their address is http://www.mannlakeltd.com Please contact them for all of the pricing and shipping info you may have. Wish you the best of luck Angus and thanks again for your response. Regards Charlie Scott 6885 Fountain Dr. Anchorage, Alaska.99502> ---------- > From: Harry Bowie > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Looking for NUCs > Date: 31 October 1997 03:56 > > I am looking for a mail order source, in the United States, to buy 2, NEW > ,wooden, 5 frame NUCs. The only catalog that I have that carries them is > Brushy Mountain. They are out of stock and they do not think that they will > have more till January. Are there any other sources? As this is most > likely NOT of interest to all, please reply to me personally. > Harry Bowie hjbowie@usit.net > > Want to Bee Beekeeper > 0 Hives > East Tennessee USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:34:07 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Late Swarms Comments: To: Paul Cronshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Paul, Late swarms were very common in these parts last season (Fall '96). Mites peaked in fall '95, major losses between fall '95 and spring '96, late swarms in fall '96, but little mite pressure since things crashed in '95-96. Things were 'normal' this season. In other words, the late fall swarms were strange, but followed a season of little to no mite pressure and no one would have attributed the late swarming to mite pressure. Perhaps there was a pressure for late swarms in this area due to the void left in feral populations. But it was all speculation, no one ever figured it out. Andy would love this! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:48:56 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Viruses and Varroa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Joe Hemmens wrote: > Hi, > > Brenda Ball has been carrying out research into the role that viruses > play in Varroa infestation, information about this fascinating > subject can be found at the International Bee Research Association's > site - > > http://www.res.bbsrc.ac.uk/entnem/research/chdpage1.htm > > Well worth a look! > Thanks Joe for the post. This is a subject that all beekeepers must understand.We all need to know more on how our bees are dieing, do to Varroa. PMS is too large of a blanket to cover the mite problem. We can see that we have more than one pathogen working against our bees. Brenda Ball has worked hard over the last 3 years to come up with her new info. Take a good look at her info and we can understand why, Varroa did a large scale kill on our bees in 1995. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:01:34 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Ways to keep bees over winter in cold climate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Why not drill a few 1 inch holes in the lid. Plug these or tape over them. Now you can open a single hole and allow the bees to move up into a container. Having holes at various locations should allow you to find bees as the population dwindles. If you decide to take the lid off, you might use a red light. Alternately, remove the lid, allow the bees to fly to a window, close the lid and remove the bees from the window. good luck. Eric At 10:49 PM 29/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Bob: >I am sure that you are going to receive a lot of well-intended suggestions on >this subject. >Here is my contribution: I would place the hive in a corner of the garage or in >the basement if the temperature drops yet it does not freeze. The idea is that >you should be able to periodically open your hive briefly to remove the bees that >you need. You should be able to accomplish the task rather rapidly without >disturbing the cluster and without risking "chilling" the cluster. Good luck. >Best regards. >Dr. Rodriguez >Virginia Beach, VA > > Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:30:36 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Beekeeping Videos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I recently converted from VHS to PAL for about $6 Canadian. You might want to check out current conversion prices. At 01:12 PM 30/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hi >Several years ago I had a series of four video tapes converted to the PAL >format used in Britain and Ireland. I still have a few on the shelf. They >were in the Weekend Beekeeper Series. There are fur tapes, run $50 each or >fur for $160.00 (this is what the converstion costs ran ten years ago). >Please advise. >Larry Connor @ Wicwas Press > > Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:22:54 -0500 Reply-To: beesbest@ne.mediaone.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kathy Hough Subject: Re: Responsible Info {used to be [Fwd: Very Agressive!!]} MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Watson wrote: > Let's not start a popularity contest. It's not a popularity contest, and couldn't be since I don't know many of the people mentioned. The reason for mentioning other folks and pointing out the quality of information being disseminated, instead of just flaming Andy, was an attempt to bring some positive information to a new beekeeper who'd just been a casual victim of Andy Nachbauer's ego. Truth is, IMO (& others who've E-mailed me), the entire post that contained the put down of Scott Kline would have been more appropriately sent as E-mail from Andy to Adrian Wenner and not posted to BEE-L at all. There was nothing in it for the rest of us, and the part that questioned Scott's choice to go to his local authorities was written with an adolescent "I'm so cool and wouldn't have made *those* choices" attitude that IMO doesn't belong on any list or news group. Further, when I read Andy's response to Scott's hurt/upset post that started with " 'Water under de bridge" I was shocked! What? no apology? Most people, on most lists and groups would have apologized for wounding someone.. even if someone overreacted (which i don't think Scott did). > And while we're at it, let's keep the > >quoting< to a minimum..... > Ask Andy to quit droning on so.... I attached only the pertinent posts. Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:59:03 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Very Agressive!!] In-Reply-To: <14150076713609@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I figured when no one blasted him for that (IMO irresponsible) post, that > most everyone here on BEE-L had come to appreciate Andy for his > forwarding of other peoples info, press releases, etc. but had learned to > ignore much of what he personally had to say (I was lucky to have been > forewarned). Good (appropriate) subject line One reason nobody argued with Andy was that we all know he has a sense of humour and uses generous amounts of hyperbole in his entertaining and informative writing to this list. If anyone gets hurt from what Andy writes, I think he/she is misunderstanding the tone of the post. I doubt Andy has a mean bone in his body. Most of us recognize the humour and exaggeration in his posts and understand he is just trying to get people to stop acting like sheep and think a bit. That's not to say his (justified?) frustration with government 'authority' doesn't show just a tiny bit once in a while. FWIW, Andy has more actual beeyard experience than any two or three others here put together (with a few exceptions) and he has made a living with bees all his life. He also reads very widely, as shown in his contributions. He's paid his dues. There is a tradition in American culture -- as many others-- of respecting elders, and I think it applies here. Most of us also know that if you follow any advice or believing what you read -- from any source -- without thinking first you are in for real trouble. The other reason is that most survivors on BEE-L are silent is that we know from experience that attacking any one person will lead to endless pushing and shoving. This list, warts and all, is a real treat compared to the chaos and crudeness of many discussions on the 'net. Moreover, this list is not sacrosanct: the simple fact is that -- contrary to what many BEE-L readers earnestly believe -- most of what is posted on BEE-L is conjecture and hearsay or chatter. Further, many people post (mostly irrelevant) quotes longer than their own comments and hardly anyone seems to bother to search the archives for what has been described in detail previously. BEE-L's a mess. The list of sins and inadequacies goes on... However, I guess we all know the point is this: our choice is to learn to love it and *live and let live* or to unsubscribe. Here on BEE-L, we read what we find useful, we delete what we don't, and we (mostly) get along. For a community of almost 1,000 people we are pretty tolerant and polite. That's really something amazing to find on the 'net. And something to treasure. Allen --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:58:42 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stewart Beattie Subject: Re: Freezing wax moths In-Reply-To: <61A1CFAB40BDCF119B3B080009D624A8029D77@sterwent.sterwent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 28 Oct, Rett Thorpe wrote: > > I am keeping my empty supers in an open carport > > here in Colorado. > > Is the nightly freezing enough to keep the wax > > moths and larva from > > getting started.. > > > > > As long as this question has been asked. I'd like to tack my > question on as well. I also stored my supers in a shed (Not open, but > not moth proof either) I am in Utah and will also have a nightly freeze > during winter months. I put each super in a plastic garbage bag. Will > this inability to breathe create any problems? > > > Add to this discussion. I store my supers in a shed in plastic bags. Also add a sheet of kitchen adsorbent paper. Give it a "slosh" of 80% Acetic acid. This kills wax moth and nosema. The smell is gone by the spring and the wax moth can not enter the bags. Stewart Cumbria, UK. (an old Gable-Endie) ......on an Acorn risc computer.....outside Bill Gates Empire..... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:31:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: bee space agin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dissin' the D.E.: In response to the queries lately about this hive, certain ideas should perhaps be borne in mind: The "D.E" hive design is not particularly novel, by any appearances. This is essentially the same as the "Modified National" hive, which is the one most commonly used by hobbiests in Britain. And pretty much nowhere else. It follows the same principles as the hives usually used here (Langstroth), but the dimensions differ somewhat (a little less volume), the and the boxes utilize more lumber as they are slightly more complex. You can go either way, but bear in mind that the raves you hear about the DE have been from new owners, and you would likewise hear the same comments from Langstroth-hive (or any hive!) users, when they are still nice and *new*. New hives are always a joy to work, as everything fits together and comes apart with a minimum of effort. This might not be the case after a few years of weathering. (Even Nationals with British Standard frames can cause problems - the spacers are not ideal, bees can get mashed, the long frame lugs break off, etc.) It is always safer to go with standard equipment, which in North America means Lanstroth hives. The investment is quite a bit less, and the resale value is high, whereas with oddball equipment you can pay much more at the outset, and there is not apt to be a market for the same, used equipment later. Also, when it comes to buying, selling, or trading stocks, the combs and boxes will always be Langstroth, so you will be in much better shape if everything is uniform. I am not saying the DE hive is no good as a home for bees, but perhaps it would make better sense if it was marketed in the UK and not North America. It is not going to take over as the "standard hive" over here, it has no particularly wonderful advantages over the standard one, and if you want to minimize your investment and headaches, stick to the standard hive. Bees will not make more honey in one style hive than another, at least if they are as similar as the DE and Langstroth. It is the bee and proper management (and n o t the style hive which leads to the maximum honey crop). Claims that some gadget will increase honey production should be held suspect. If you don't mind spending the money you can give them a try, but any apparent increase (or decrease) in honey production one could attribute to any of a number of factors, not the least of which would be genetics and management of the colony. About the only useful aspect of the DE that the standard hive doesn't have is the plinths across the box, which act as hand-holds. They provide a much firmer grip than the handhold "cutouts" in the Langstroth boxes. However, the standard boxes can be easily improved just by nailing a strip of wood 3/4" thick x 2" wide across the front and back of each box. This is commonly what commercial beekeepers do, and it facilitates lifting and moving a great deal. There is no mad rush on the part of beekeepers to get the "special" ventilation-boxes on their hives - I don't see how this gadget can be hailed as such a great innovation. There is even one on the market now that uses a SOLAR PANEL on the roof to open and close the vents. (O-kay... is the jury in on that one?) Years ago there was a common practice of drilling a 1" hole in the front of every box, but this really isn't necessary or worth the trouble. The bees are quite capable of providing whatever air flow they need through the hive. To assist in this, many beekeepers (yours truly included) "stagger" the supers during the height of the honey season. Or, simply jacking up the outer cover with sticks laid on the inner cover will allow the stale moist air to escape out under the lid, summer or winter. It would seem that any type of supplemental ventilation helps the bees in ridding the hive of all the moisture as they evaporate down the nectar. However, even without the "extra" ventilation they manage amazingly well. E.g., I work with a regional commercial beekeeper (650 col.), harvesting the crop across a wide area in upstate NY. Some of this season's biggest-yielding hives - 6-8 supers of honey - had no such "extra" ventilation. In fact, large number only had 3/8" x 3" entrances at the bottom, period (the winter entrance-blocks were still in place)! They certainly didn't seem to be any worse off for it, and colonies at the same sites with more ventilation certainly did no better. Probably no hive design is ideal in every respect, but in the long run there are many decided advantages to standard equipment. Personally, I would tend toward a nail- or staple spaced brood frame of Quinby (Dadant) depth (11 1/4") in a single brood box, like Br. Adam preferred, and Manley extracting frames above, for the "best" hive, but in this part of the world they would be completely oddball. Comments, corrections solicited... Joel Govostes Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:42:49 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: decapping fork, also other uncapping methods - ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you just use the fork to scratch/puncture the cappings (as opposed to lifting them off the comb surface) you just end up with lots more wax particles in the honey, then, to strain out? If you really have the knack of it, you can lift the cappings off with a fork practically dry. Which brings to mind the "Hackler Honey Punch," which is a spiky roller you pass over the comb, to punch holes in the cappings. Anybody tried this? It is easier than uncapping, certainly, but it appears you wouldn't end up with much wax when you were done. The punched combs go back onto the hive, and the bees chew off the remaining cappings, and they fall to the floor as garbage. It may depend on how you view cappings in the first place -- either as an annoyance to just deal with, or instead as a substantial part of what you are harvesting as your crop. Thick combs and a deep cut yield a substantial amount of the highest quality, lemon-yellow wax. Next time around, when the supers go back on, the bees rapidly build the combs back out and thereby make good use of the wax they are producing during a nectar flow anyway. I'd be interested to know what the common frame-spacing practice is when chain or flail-type auto uncappers (or Gunness) are used. Is there then any advantage to wide combs...? I have a Maxant hand-plane, and have found that wide combs are often more difficult to uncap that way. The plane can only take off so much. With a flat knife you can cut right in across the top and bottom bars, if you don't mind the wax. comments? thanks... jg .......................................... > If you drag the fork >across the comb it works just as well and the operation is completely >mindless. >Donald Aitken >11710-129 Street >Edmonton Alberta Canada >T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:59:37 -0600 Reply-To: barry@birkey.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Re: decapping fork, also other uncapping methods - ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel Govostes wrote: > > If you just use the fork to scratch/puncture the cappings (as opposed to > lifting them off the comb surface) you just end up with lots more wax > particles in the honey, then, to strain out? If you really have the knack > of it, you can lift the cappings off with a fork practically dry. Joel - I think you're quite right. When I was helping Ken Lawrence uncap all his frames, I used the fork for uncapping all the areas the Cowen mini uncapper missed by lifting the cappings off instead of scratching. It takes very little time to do it this way and you end up removing all the caps instead of just tearing them up and leaving parts still intact. They will be very dry also. I'm sure the design of the fork is meant to be used this way or else it would be just a flat, straight handle with the tines and handle all being straight (in line). -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA barry@birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:17:17 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Mike Swintosky ([330] 471-3128)" Subject: Heating/Filtering Honey Does anyone fine-filter honey direct from the extractor? I only have 3 hives at the moment, but my experience is that honey straight from the extractor is too cool to run through the finish filter. It just clogs too quickly. I've thought of 2 possibilities: 1. Heat the honey as it flows from the extractor. This will enable it to be filtered more readily. 2. Batch heat the honey after extracting is complete. Any of the conventional tank or bucket heaters could then be used. Filtering would then be done when the honey reached the desired temperature. What are peoples thoughts on the quickest and most cost efficient means of filtering on a small scale? How many hives might one need to manage before a higher capacity method might be required? Thanks in advance. I'll look forward to reading responses the 1st of the week. Mike Swintosky Dellroy, Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: No Larvae in NC! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I checked my three hives today and found, to my great surprise, no sign of larvae in any of them. I saw no eggs, either, but the sun wasn't very bright and I'm not sure I could have spotted them in the bottom of the cells. There was capped brrod at the ready-to-emerge stage in all hives, plenty of bees, and plenty of honey and pollen. It stretches credulity too much to suppose that all my queens have met an untimely demise. Ruling that out, I have to assume that, given the generally colder and gloomy weather here in Piedmont NC the past 2-3 weeks, and, I guess, a lessening of the fall goldenrod flow, my queens have shut down egg production for a spell to reduce hive population. But I'm a newbie and haven't read anything that suggests my hives should be devoid of larvae this early in the fall. Any thoughts? Remember, we're talking three hives here, not an isolated incident. Greg ____________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Mt. Gilead, NC ghankins@ac.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:34:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: bitchyness Comments: To: morris@listserv.iupui.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am a subscriber to a couple of lists and newsgroups. What I think we need is for the "guy-in-charge" of each, to set up a parallel list or newsgroup - one called "xxxl bitching" or something like that. The purpose is that when someone feels he/she must make a person attack on some other cointributor's intelligence, moral values, sanity, etc., he/she could do it without disrupting the flow of on-topic, useful, or even semi-useful information. You read and hear of "road rage." Well we are often faced with "internet rage," which can be just a destructive, and certainly as unavailang as any other rage. At a minimum, if you feel impelled to "internet rage," how about changing your subject line to " bitching. ' "grousing, " or "rage," so it can be trashed without wasting the time it takes to read it. Assume we all either know, or are smart enough to figure out, that X is an idiot. We don't need to hear it over and over again. T Thank you very much. Having got that off my chest, I'm standing by for some charming responses. The nice part is that I can 1.) leave my computer off for a week, and/or 2.) trash at will, and no one will ever know. Guy F. Miller "Start every day with a smile, and get it over with." Charlottesville. VA W.C. Fields ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:43:42 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: [Fwd: Very Agressive!!] Comments: To: beesbest@ne.mediaone.net In-Reply-To: <34597E86.706E0574@ne.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Kathy and thanks for the Love Letter, I am sorry that you have such a low personal opinion of my posts and I am sure you are not alone. I will try to do better in the future as I surely do not know it all and have room for some improvement in my life. I will make a few points since I have rung your bell I might as well add to your lists of personal grievances. If you are not interested you are free and welcome to add me to your reader's byte bucket list and should do it now before reading any farther. (EXIT NOW) 1st and most important I have always been up front with what I post and I always try to impress all readers that what I post is "in my own humble opinion" (IMHO), and what I write should not be taken as anything more then the Bee Gospel according to my own experiences from a lifetime within the Beekeeping Industry and in my own beehives and many others. I am sure other's may have done the time but I would not expect them to have the same opinion's or express them in the same style as I do, if at all, that's life.. I do pride myself on being honest and truthful in what I say but admit that I use a style of writing that I hope makes other's think and in no way is intended to do any more then cause all to read what I write. I do not write the politically correct post as anyone can see. It may be seen as aggressive by some, but other's take a certain amount of pride to have been the subject of one of my so called report's and some do make changes because of them and many of these victims are in real life considered my friends. Maybe it is a painful learning process which is the norm when working with bees or the Internet. Everyone who read's what I write is free to e-mail any challenge to what I post and they do and I have at times admitted I was wrong in my opinion's which have not been cast in stone or handed down from above. Some feeling and ego's do get bruised but that is the nature of this thing we call language and the impersonal nature of the Internet's news groups, list mail, and e-mail,.. most experienced readers and posters do not and should not take what anyone write's as personal. I am sorry for those who do shed a tear because they felt they were personally attacked and can only say to them it's a two way street of experience and if anyone feels they were personally offended they are free here to express their own opinions. A common mistake that we all make and that is reading something into other's post that was not intended by the sender. I do not have time for personal fights or personal attack's in my life's work, but know that my style of writing can be the subject of mis interpretation by those who may read what I write, not all do as many do not like long winded posts or posts that ramble, both are the norm for me, and all are welcome not to read them. I don't expect many to agree with what I write and yet every week I am asked for permission to use what I have written in one way or another and this gives me the warm fuzzes but also does surprise me and I have without effort, other then what is required to make a post, became one the most quoted beekeepers on the world wide net. I don't know if this is good, but for sure many want to read what I have to say and are not turned off by how I say it and find my effort's worthwhile or they would not be making the efforts to add my words to their own web pages, newsletter's, real newspaper's, books, and other not so friendly places. Anyway I am in no way offended when other's don't agree with me personally and welcome and encourage all to express their own opinions and I do not judge anyone because he or she has expressed a differing opinion or do I try to belittle those who ask questions as I found out a long time ago the only bad question is the one that was not asked and believe it or not I learn by what other's ask. I have personally set up a "auto responder" for new bee's who want some basic information and it is well used to the point that I seldom mention it as it costs me dearly, but thankfully others have followed my lead and several "auto responders" are now installed on the Internet for beekeeper's use. I also believe that "if you can do it better then I, then have at it!". I personally plan on continuing with my own efforts as long as I am able as I have a lot to say and have just began to say it. >I wouldn't worry about it. It sounds like you did the right things, if >anything you erred to the side of caution and IMHO, that is a good >thing. What was that you say, someone may have errored.., IMHO it was one error that so many beekeepers, new and old make, and that is looking to government to solve a common everyday beekeeping problem. >As for Andy Nachbaur's other comments about "Afro Bee Slash and Burn" >"quarantine boss with star and gun at the ready"; it appears to me that >Andy has some problem with the current method of quarantine being used >in this country to attempt to stop/slow the spread of african honeybees Yes, this includes ALL US bee quarantines which have done nothing to stop, slow down or cure any beekeeping problem and in fact have ruined the lives of so many good beekeepers and their families who were no different from anyone else on this earth other then to have been the victims of the zeal of others. At least one death can be pointed out as a direct result of one of the bee quarantines though not from a gun shot or bee stings but a broken heart and many others have suffered such a degree of damage that no amount of liberal rhetoric can ever make them whole again or will I ever personally forgive those whom I know were responsible or those in positions of responsibility who did nothing but fan the fires knowing all along that it was wrong. The US bee quarantines have been so bad that even the US government agency that was responsible for them now uses them as an example of what not to do in their internal training operations. Even the AHB guarantee is due to expire because the science behind it is so poor that any lower court challenge would end it anyway.(IMHO) >I recall an earlier post in which he advises someone looking for African >honeybee stock to breed in the US, that he contact some of the guys behind >quarantine lines to get AHB breeding stock. I did that? It is my own opinion that since we have AHB we should take our heads out of our sand boxes., It is time we got to know our bees including the AHB personally and up close and work and use them, not as attack dogs, but use some of their well known productive qualities to make improvement to most any stock now in this country. We don't have to import them via some government program as they are here now in abundance, nor do we have to relied on the judgement of persons with nothing to gain or lose in choosing the right stock for ourselves. Believe it or not many beekeepers in the US are doing what I have suggested above and they do live with fear, and that's not right. Man or beekeepers should have the right to use what God has provided without fear of punishment or destruction from his fellow man the bee cop with the badge and in some areas a gun dressed in his green suit. Well for a fact if there are so called quarantine lines they have not kept beekeepers from moving in and out of these areas such as bees from Texas and other states known to have AHB, (now including California, an infested state) and these same bees can be found in both the South, East, West and North and have not caused any reported problems and have added to the wealth of this county with honey production and pollination of many agricultural crops, then what good are quarantines other then to provide employment to government people whom could be doing other more productive things like checking meat for bad smells or bugs and chemicals. >I figured when no one blasted him for that (IMO irresponsible) post, >that most everyone here on BEE-L had come to appreciate Andy for his >forwarding of other peoples info, press releases, etc. but had learned >to ignore much of what he personally had to say >(I was lucky to have been forewarned). You may have been the victim of some poor information but you make it sound like there is a "Kill the OLd Drone Club". But as long as you read what I write I believe in time you may with real time beekeeping experience have a somewhat more moderate opinion on ignoring what I and other commercial beekeepers have to say and may even change your open personal attacks on my own opinions and my posts made at great personal investment and without expectations of rewards or even the recovery of out of pocket costs. I seldom blow my own horn like this but I take great pride in the numbers of people who over the years have taken the time to come up to me personally, sometimes years later, and tell me how that at one time they thought I had one wheel off the track but they have with experience changed their own opinion's and think it is important enough to personally tell me that I was on the right track all the time. This is the only real reward I get for my personal public efforts and does make it worthwhile and calms my own fears and cold chills I get when so many times I have stood up alone before National and State Beekeeping groups, University Boards, the Legislature's, and the Court's, trying in my own way to protect myself and my industry from those who would do us as individuals under by telling it in my own way as I see it and it has worked well and I would be happy to give you details but will not take the time now. I have always included all beekeepers in my efforts and do not judge individuals by the number of bees they have or the reason they have them or even what they post to newsgroups or list mailers but I read them all as time permits and even the personal Love Letters from other readers. IMHO, ttul, the OLd Drone