========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:55:32 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: An Ta Subject: Re: Poison Pollen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees will ignore it, because they know what is good for them. Andrzej Katowice, Poland or will the bees possibly ignore it if >there is other "more attractive" pollen available to them? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:02:54 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: QUB Subject: For Attn of list organizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Forwarded Message: From: QUB Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:55:03 GMT Subject: For Attn of list organizer (DELETE THIS) To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Hi, This message is for the list organizer . Can you check my address details and privilages as for some reason my ablity to search the database comes up with the ... access denied message... ?? Also, I get the same message when I use ..review..? Yours Philip Earle j.a.p.earle@qub.ac.uk PS. This is the second posting ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:53:15 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: mites! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I appreciate your not wanting to disturb the bees this time of year. It would be interesting, however, if, after examining cells and after an ether roll, you were to put in a couple of Apistan strips and check the mite drop after 24 hours then compare the results. The nice thing about this method is that it samples the entire hive. I am not an expert but it seems to me that 50 cells is about 2 square inches. How mamy cells are there on a comb. About 60 inches per side that might be capped? So you sampled 2 out of 120 square inches or 1/60 of the cells. Would you have found 60 mites if you had opened them all? I don't even know if that would be a significant infestation but it would cause me to have some concern. I am not suggesting mineral oil is not a good treatment. I am only suggesting that we must be careful when measuring the success or failure of a treatment. >Last fall, when there was still Drones in the hive I removed a frame of drone >comb, and opened about 25-50 cells to see if I could locate any varroa, and I >only found one. I think that the varroa are under control at this point, and >I did not use any Apistan in these hives. > >I will use Apistan, but only if the mineral oil starts to fail. I will use >Apistan as a last resort to save a hive if infested, but at this point I >think if I can go another year without a problem then I will think I will be >able to go along time. > >BRIAN HENSEL >MONTE RIO CALIFORNIA > > Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:29:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: mites! In-Reply-To: <19971201.162430.3518.0.awneedham@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:24 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: We have photos of both mites on our pages http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees Cheers, Jerry >There are photos of mites at some Bee web-sites. If I recall correctly >P-O Gustafsson may have a photo on his site: > >http://www.kuai.se/~beeman > >Maybe someone else can suggest some other sites so that you >can 'see for yourself' what you are looking for. V-mites that is. > >Al, >----------------------------------------------------------- > awneedham@juno.com - Scituate,MA,USA > The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site > http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ > > Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:14:50 +0000 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: U. Michigan Dept. of Anatomy & Cell Biology Subject: Re: Introducing Ripe Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd ( Tom Barrett) wrote: > I do not know what a > ripe cell looks like. I do know, that the queen cells are somewhat acorn > like, and may be in the centre of combs if they are supercedure cells, or on > the bottom of combs if they are swarming cells. > > What exactly does one do, to remove the cell without damage from the colony > in which it starts, and then how does one 'affix' it to the colony into > which it is to be introduced. Is there a preferred time of day to do this, > what are the chances of success, and how does one guard against failure?. When a queen cell is "ripe", or ready for the queen to emerge, the workers remove the outer layer of beeswax from about 2 mm of the end of the cell, exposing the cocoon. The silk of the cocoon is a shiny red-brown, easily distinquished from the dull wax of the rest of the cell. If removing such a cell from its normal position near the bottom of the frame, much care is necessary to prevent damage. Keep the frame and cell always in a vertical position, then cut well around the base of the cell with a sharp knife. Hold the cell by the thick wax at its base, being careful not to squeeze the queen inside. If you can hear a rustling sound inside the cell, the queen is fully developed and ready to emerge, otherwise she is still in a late developmental stage. In the latter case, it is very important to never tip the cell on its side. I would then take the cell and introduce it into a day old queenless nuc, gently positioning it between the top bars of two frames. Hope this works for you. I have done this lots of times with good hives making ready to swarm. (I also usually make up the nucs from such a hive, because otherwise I may miss a cell and the hive will swarm anyway!) Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:14:43 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: FGMO vs Organic Oils Hi All Just to pick up on the assertation that using an biologically produced oil would avoid the danger of damaging humans, I have the following beliefs apart from aggreeing with what Dr Rodriguez said in his reply. Most vegetable oils are present in plants in small amouunts. Our bodies can metabolise these small amounts. If one takes forty kilograms of sunflower/rape seeds and squeezes out a litre of oil to eat/drink/pour on bees, it is unlikely that it wouuld have been possible to eat 40 kg's of sunnnflower seeds, so natuurally we cannot deal with an extract of that volume. So if you eat chips you get cholesterol. If bees eat the oil, which they may, they will be able to digest some of it and it may mess with their metabolisms. The FGMO is inert however and will pass throuugh them maybe only affectinng their absorbtionn of certain things. SO IMHO FGMO is OK and a vegetable extract is not. (A bit like the whole Oleander is natuural so the cyanide theirin is safe theory) Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:43:19 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re Beekeeping in Lithuania Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Beekeepers Some Bee L members are interested in Lithuania's beekeeping. >Hello Rimantas. I saw your message and was wondering if you would like = to share a bit about your hobby with me... >Regards, Joel Govostes, Freeville, NY =20 With a kind permission of a professor Mr. William J. Morrison I scanned = his article in BEE CULTURE , August 1995, pg. 447. Excuse me for my scanners mistakes I missed. Yours Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt Lithuania's Museum Of Ancient Beekeeping "They take you back in time, and you find their development was very = similar, and very different than ours." William J. Morrison A travel poster that I saw at a hotel in Vilnius, the capital of = Lithuania, read in English: "Visit Lithuania, a country of a peculiar = culture." I recall chuckling at that mistranslation: surely they had = meant to say "unique culture." I have made several trips to Lithuania = both before and after it became the first Soviet republic to gain = independence. On one of these trips, as a guest of the Lithuanian = Institute of Ecology, I had the pleasure of being taken by my hosts for = a visit to a rather imaginative museum, the Museum of Ancient = Beekeeping. It was there that my prior impression that bees and = beekeeping played a significant role in the culture of my Lithuanian = ancestors was reinforced. The museum is located in the National Park of Lithuania in the = northeastern part of the country, where the idyllic landscapes, with = lakes nestled among low hills, are very pleasing to the eye. Many of the = lakes are connected by slow-moving streams, and the park map shows the = routes and campsites canoeists might use for weekend excursions. The = park does not attempt to preserve a pristine wilderness the way many = national parks in the United States do; instead. it consists of a mix of = natural and managed forests, farmland, inhabited villages and old = homesteads. One can find old ,log barns with doors. nails and hinges = made entirely of wood. But in spite of the somewhat developed character = of the park. the howls of wolves can still be heard at night. Europe has many museums devoted wholly or partly to beekeeping. This = one seems to be only one of three that existed in the former Soviet = Union. A tiny, rustic cottage, the headquarters of the museum, contains = displays of old and modern beehives and beekeeping tools. Across the = yard from the cottage is a typical log granary or storehouse with a = large front room furnished with rustic tables and benches arranged to = seat lecture audiences. Toward the end of my visit, this is where we sat = and sampled the local honey from miniature paper cups. The most fascinating part of the museum is the quarter-mile-long trail = which takes the visitor back in time to when bees were kept in the = forest. The guide who escorted me, an off-duty teacher, developed and = ran the museum. Through various exhibits set up along the trail, the = creators of the museum intended to demonstrate the stages in the = development of beekeeping in this part of Europe. Some of the displays = included life-size wooden figures, carved by folk artists, which = depicted beekeepers, bears and even a bee god. The first stage of beekeeping represented was a step removed from wild = bee hunting. Instead of simply finding and chopping down a bee tree, a = rectangular opening was hewn into the part of the hollow tree in which = the bees had their nest, and the tree was left standing. The opening was = fitted with a narrow, wooden door which permitted access to the combs. = The beekeeper would chop his personal mark on the trunk of the tree to = indicate his legal right to the colony within it. Just off the trail was = a tree prepared in this manner. The guide explained to me that existing = cavities too small to accommodate a colony of bees were sometimes = enlarged by the beekeeper. As we strolled further along the trail through the forest, we came to = another tree into which had been hoisted a section of hollow log. The = ends of the log were closed off with wood, and its side was fitted with = the same type of door previously seen in the hollow tree. The log was = tied firmly to the trunk of the tree in a vertical position quite high = off the ground, perhaps 20 feet. This was the second stage in ancient = beekeeping; if nature did not provide a sufficient number of hollow = trees in the beekeeper's territory, then he could put up this movable = kind of primitive hive. I asked my guide why bees were kept so high up in the trees in these = log hives and not on the ground. After all, forest beekeeping was = extremely dangerous work. Hoisting oneself into a tree on ropes while = putting up with bee stings is no picnic. I expected that the guide's = response to my question would have been that the honey-laden hives would = have been safer from attacks by bears. In fact, the next two displays = depicted some rather barbaric anti-bear devices. One of these was a = huge, spiked club hung like a pendulum in front of the bee entrance. The = theory was that if the bear swatted the club to get it out of his way, = it would swing back and jab him. A bear, being an irritable creature, = would swat all the harder and possibly be knocked to the ground where = sharpened, upward-pointing skewers awaited him. Scientific research = shows that honey bees do tend to choose nest sites high up in trees as = opposed to near the ground, a behavior trait no doubt favored by natural = selection. But the guide's response to my question about this had = nothing to do with the bears or natural selection. His ready answer, = which I found startling, was that Lithuanian beekeepers of old felt that = the bees preferred to be located high up where they would be close to = their gods. Hold it, I thought! Close to their gods? A consideration of Lithuanian history and mythology might clarify my = guide's odd explanation. Lithuania was the last European nation to be = officially converted to Christianity; it did so in the year 1385. The = folk culture remained extremely rich in customs, beliefs and = superstitions well into the 20th century. Linguists regard Lithuanian, a = Baltic tongue, to be the most conserved of all the living Indo-European = languages. Folklore experts think that Lithuanians used to recognize at least two = bee deities or spirits. One of these, the god Babilas, was depicted by = the large woodcarving mentioned earlier. He was a corpulent, gluttonous, = over-sexed, hairy, buzzing spirit whose model may have been the drone = bee. A second and, I think, more appealing bee deity is the goddess = Austeja, a fertility goddess and protectress, not only of bees, but of = women, especially pregnant women. Her name is connected with the word = austyti which today means to repetitiously open and close a door or to = go back and forth repeatedly and is also related to a word meaning to = weave. Bees were sometimes thought of as weaving their combs inside the = hive, an image analogous to women weaving cloth. Collectors of = Lithuanian folklore have recorded riddles like this one: "There sits a = maid in a dark chamber weaving without a loom or a heddle" (What is it? = A bee!) Of course, there is also a connection with the constant coming = and going of foraging worker bees. Both Babilas and Austeja are thought = to have been air deities as opposed to those associated with the earth. = When a Lithuanian bride used to toss mead from her cup upward toward the = ceiling during the festivities following a wedding, perhaps she was = paying her respects to Austeja. So, the reasoning on the part of = Lithuanian forest beekeepers may have been that if the bees' god and = goddess are air deities, then they should be up in the air near them. = It's all very consistent and logical. As we strolled back toward the cottage, the guide further explained to = me that the Lithuanian beekeepers centuries ago were members of a kind = of brotherhood. Evidence of this is a curious word in everyday use by = Lithuanians that links the Lithuanian culture and language with bees and = beekeeping. This is the word biciulis, pronounced bitch -ull -iss, with = the ull as in "pull". Derived from the two-syllable Lithuanian word for = bee, bite (bit-eh), it was originally used among beekeepers. A beekeeper = was a bicius (bitch-uss with the uss as in puss). Biciulis is a = diminutive and it literally means " dear fellow beekeeper". Beekeepers = kept bees as common property and had close relationships among = themselves that were almost as close as blood relationships. It is said = that there was a strong moral code among them. As in other cultures, the = Lithuanians saw the bee as a fiercely moral creature. She stung = dishonest people, for example. This carried over to human life. Someone = who was adept enough and morally good enough to handle bees, as you = were, clearly would make a trustworthy friend. It is said that bees were = never bought and sold among biciuliai. Nowadays, Lithuanians commonly = use the delightful word biciulis simply to mean "friend" or "pal". Toward the end of my tour, we took time to examine the log beehives = that were set up in the yard next to the cottage. These hives were of = the type widely used up to the time of the introduction of movable frame = hives, and there was little difference between them and those shown in = the displays of forest beekeeping. Some of the hives were capped with = fanciful cone-shaped roofs made of wood and bark. On the peak of each = roof was a decorative iron finial in the form of a stylized sun. Such = traditional blacksmith art. which is said to be a holdover from = pre-Christian times, is commonly seen on Lithuanian wayside crosses and = miniature chapels. In a recent article in the newspaper Lithuanian Weekly, it was stated = that Lithuanian apiculture is undergoing a period of transition. The = former large collective and state farms used to have apiary divisions, = some of which have fallen into disarray. On the other hand, with = independence and new laws permitting free enterprise, private beekeepers = have been able to expand their operations. At the present time, there = are an estimated 300,000 colonies in Lithuania. Equipment such as hives, = extractors and smokers is manufactured primarily by a wood processing = firm in the town of Ukmerge. During Lithuania's between-the wars period = of independence, honey was one of the country's exports, and especially = noteworthy was the delicious linden blossom honey. I have tasted some of = the excellent meads and other, stronger honey-based beverages produced = by one of the country's oldest breweries located in the village of = Stakliskes. These products are packaged in attractive bottles on which a = honeycomb motif is embossed. It is often said that the former socialist = bloc countries don't make anything marketable in the West. It struck me = that here was an attractive line of products, worthy of export, that = carries a mystique rooted in an ancient, and perhaps slightly peculiar, = culture in which bees played a significant role. William J. Morrison is a Professor of Biology at Shippensburg = University in Shippensburg, PA. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:26:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What have I done to deserve the following? It would appear that I am bei= ng reproved for a recent letter giving advice on the use of Wintergreen and adding my personal views on acarine (tracheal mites in the States). Woul= d the writer please be more specific. For example, am I the he/she who kno= ws nothing about mites and where did I poke fun? Let's be definite and then= I can back up all I wrote. Sid P. <<<<>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:08:21 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "John M. Wolford" Subject: "Moving Hives" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L, I am needing to relocate a couple of hives. It is nearly winter here in Kentucky and also pretty cool. The bees appear not to be flying much. Question: Will moving hives at this time be ok? Will I damage the colony by doing this? I will be moving them approximately 8 miles. John M. Wolford ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:02:37 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbar Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen Comments: To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net In-Reply-To: <348B43AB.DB36670@norfolk.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:47 PM 12/7/97 -0500, \\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: >There are things that change in this world of ours, especially in the medical >and veterinary fields. Any one who at this day and age believes that be mites >can be lived with without treatment definitely belongs in one of the following >classifications: Well my good doctor I must disagree with you and I hope I do it in a way not to make fun of any other poster. First I must say this again and again NO beekeeper should be treating for any kind of mites or any other pest or disease that does not have them. Second, any treatments for the trachea or any of the acarine mites has little or no economic value as this pest comes and goes in most commercial apiaries without economic harm in the majority of apiaries studied. Third, any chemical treatments no matter what or how harmless the material is or said to be should not be used without some known threshold of initial treatment level information based on study and this is deficient in most all mite treatment recommendations I have seen including those approved by government regulators. One of the major problems I have seen in the US is that beekeepers treat their bees with whatever is the popular or government regulated treatment of the day and their bees still die in the winter and these losses are today said to be mite related when they may or may not have any thing whatsoever to do with mites and only a continuation of what has been the norm of the past. The other side of that coin history shows that beekeepers are very, very slow to abandon treatments and only by the removal of a product from production will they stop using it. I won't list these products but will say that no one can fault the beekeepers who continue to use them as long as they could as most all of these products were better and always's less expensive then the products that replaced them and in many cases the replacement are no less safe to use and are not effective. >1. He/she knows nothing about bee mites, especially Varroa. >2. He/she is not a beekeeper, if he/she is, he/she better quit beekeeping to >avoid bankruptcy. >3. He/she likes disappointments. >4. He/she should start reading more recent literature on bee mites. >As stated before, it is okay to express one's personal opinions in >democratic countries, Will I ain't no Democrat myself and many of the readers here may not be the least bit interested in politics anyway and are as far as I know most are only expressing their own opinion's based on their own experience or what they have read or heard from reliable sources. I don't believe that using any unnecessary treatment is justified because of someone's faith in any brand of politick's or the outcome as advertised by that treatments promoter, which may in itself lead to your number two above just as fast as a more conservative non treatment approach to beekeeping which is as natural as the history of bees not surviving the winter to spite all the care given by their keepers. >however, to poke fun at a subject which is so significant to the future of >beekeeping in particular and humanity in general, is insincere. I sure did not read any "poking fun" in any post on Wintergreen and only read what has been reported in both private and public research papers on the TRACHEA mites that live off of honey bees in the US and Europe. There are two very interesting Revelations about all these bee problems and the first is for the last 90 years of so the symptoms for the major unexplained traumatic losses of bees have been the same but every few years the cause and treatment changes due to what is called BS. I won't outline the unchanging symptoms now because they should be well known to all by this time as most so called BS papers in the last 20 years have quoted them line for line. The second realization is that with the TRACHEA or acarine mite that there is a spontaneous rise and decline in its population in all long term hive studies, and that this has also been reported by several creditable observations with the Varroa mite without any beekeeper intervention or treatment. It is too early to say if this is going to be the norm for Varroa and all of this is compounded because so few are not treating with something or the other and it is near impossible to find untreated bees to study. >In my humble opinion, we need to assume a more responsible attitude >regarding bee mites. If this means that we all should follow then you are in for a big disappointment as beekeepers are not followers and by their own nature are going to seek different paths around any problem. I don't know why this is but it is the way it is in both the science of beekeeping and the husbandry of bees and what makes our bee science and bee business different from all others in agriculture. If all inputs into bees were the same each season the outcomes would still be different from year to year. This makes honey bees very poor subjects for science other then reported observations and has frustrated scientists with beekeepers whom some have said are poor in following directions because their scientific observations could not be repeated by the beekeepers. IMHO, ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Opinions are not always based on facts. All are welcome to use my own. >Best regards. >Dr. Rodriguez >Virginia Beach, VA > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:16:13 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jonathan Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit gee i wish the sentences didn't extend across my screen onto my wall so i could print this off. Andy Nachbar wrote: > At 07:47 PM 12/7/97 -0500, \\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: > >There are things that change in this world of ours, especially in the medical > >and veterinary fields. Any one who at this day and age believes that be mites > >can be lived with without treatment definitely belongs in one of the following > >classifications: > > Well my good doctor I must disagree with you and I hope I do it in a way not to make fun of any other poster. > > First I must say this again and again NO beekeeper should be treating for any kind of mites or any other pest or disease that does not have them. > > Second, any treatments for the trachea or any of the acarine mites has little or no economic value as this pest comes and goes in most commercial apiaries without economic harm in the majority of apiaries studied. > > Third, any chemical treatments no matter what or how harmless the material is or said to be should not be used without some known threshold of initial treatment level information based on study and this is deficient in most all mite treatment recommendations I have seen including those approved by government regulators. > > One of the major problems I have seen in the US is that beekeepers treat their bees with whatever is the popular or government regulated treatment of the day and their bees still die in the winter and these losses are today said to be mite related when they may or may not have any thing whatsoever to do with mites and only a continuation of what has been the norm of the past. The other side of that coin history shows that beekeepers are very, very slow to abandon treatments and only by the removal of a product from production will they stop using it. I won't list these products but will say that no one can fault the beekeepers who continue to use them as long as they could as most all of these products were better and always's less expensive then the products that replaced them and in many cases the replacement are no less safe to use and are not effective. > > >1. He/she knows nothing about bee mites, especially Varroa. > >2. He/she is not a beekeeper, if he/she is, he/she better quit beekeeping to > >avoid bankruptcy. > >3. He/she likes disappointments. > >4. He/she should start reading more recent literature on bee mites. > > >As stated before, it is okay to express one's personal opinions in > >democratic countries, > > Will I ain't no Democrat myself and many of the readers here may not be the least bit interested in politics anyway and are as far as I know most are only expressing their own opinion's based on their own experience or what they have read or heard from reliable sources. I don't believe that using any unnecessary treatment is justified because of someone's faith in any brand of politick's or the outcome as advertised by that treatments promoter, which may in itself lead to your number two above just as fast as a more conservative non treatment approach to beekeeping which is as natural as the history of bees not surviving the winter to spite all the care given by their keepers. > > >however, to poke fun at a subject which is so significant to the future of > >beekeeping in particular and humanity in general, is insincere. > > I sure did not read any "poking fun" in any post on Wintergreen and only read what has been reported in both private and public research papers on the TRACHEA mites that live off of honey bees in the US and Europe. > > There are two very interesting Revelations about all these bee problems and the first is for the last 90 years of so the symptoms for the major unexplained traumatic losses of bees have been the same but every few years the cause and treatment changes due to what is called BS. I won't outline the unchanging symptoms now because they should be well known to all by this time as most so called BS papers in the last 20 years have quoted them line for line. > > The second realization is that with the TRACHEA or acarine mite that there is a spontaneous rise and decline in its population in all long term hive studies, and that this has also been reported by several creditable observations with the Varroa mite without any beekeeper intervention or treatment. It is too early to say if this is going to be the norm for Varroa and all of this is compounded because so few are not treating with something or the other and it is near impossible to find untreated bees to study. > > >In my humble opinion, we need to assume a more responsible attitude > >regarding bee mites. > > If this means that we all should follow then you are in for a big disappointment as beekeepers are not followers and by their own nature are going to seek different paths around any problem. I don't know why this is but it is the way it is in both the science of beekeeping and the husbandry of bees and what makes our bee science and bee business different from all others in agriculture. If all inputs into bees were the same each season the outcomes would still be different from year to year. This makes honey bees very poor subjects for science other then reported observations and has frustrated scientists with beekeepers whom some have said are poor in following directions because their scientific observations could not be repeated by the beekeepers. > > IMHO, ttul, the OLd Drone > > (c)Opinions are not always based on facts. > All are welcome to use my own. > > >Best regards. > >Dr. Rodriguez > >Virginia Beach, VA > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:14:50 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: 6 dimensional bee dance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I was told that on National Public Radio the other night there was an >interview with a Barb Shiffer a math prof. from somewhere. Apparently >she has discovered that the bee dance can be discribed by some 6 >dimensional geometry equation. Did anyone catch this program that can >discribe what she was talking about? Once the bees are beyond a particular distance from the pollen source, their dance changes into a six dimensional dance related to quantum mechanics theory. Prof. Schiffer recognized the pattern of the dance from some bee books she had in her bedroom as a child, and was able to see the connection between the six dimentionsal geometry she was teaching in her math classes. quantum mechanics theory, and bee communication. Neat, eh? *Kirk Jones/ Sleeping Bear Apiaries /971 S. Pioneer Rd./Beulah,MI 49617 *Sharon Jones/ BeeDazzled Candleworks /6289 River Rd./ Benzonia, MI 49616 e-mail b-man@aliens.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: mites! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. Just a brief reminder. Those who have read my files should remember that the method for mite detection that I used was based on examination of 100 capped cells, drones and worker cells included. Results reported were: number of mites per 100 capped cells (inspected). Best regards. Dr.R. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:08:35 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Introducing Ripe Queen Cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom Barrett asked about introducing ripe queen cells into colonies that may occur in standard hives. Tom, the ways and means of using queen cells can depend on the resources available to you at the time. Once you have seen a cell, it is unmistakable. When making preparation for swarming bees will make play cells which protrude in the same manner as a queen cell but are thick celled and never have any larvae. FWIW >I am a first year beekeeper. I have come across procedures in beekeeping >books which call for introducing ripe queen cells into colonies. I cannot >recall having seen a procedure for actually doing this. The larvae is easily damaged in the early stages of pupation. It is helpful if you know when the cell is sealed so that you can move it within 2 days before the virgin queen emerges as this is minimal risk. Please note that in hot weather the queen can emerge in 15 days from egg laying and on one occasion I lifted cells on the 14th day to find a virgin just on her way out. One way of transferring to a colony is to remove the whole frame with brood and bees that the cell is on to the nucleus. The field bees will return to the original hive (unless you move it 2 miles) but enough nurse bees will remain with the brood to nurture the queen. Another way is to carry a sharp pocket knife and physically cut out sealed cells as you come across them in hive inspection. These must be reinserted in a colony the same day and kept free of vibration since it is difficult to tell what stage they have reached. A match box is a good temporary storage. Cut well around the cell (sacrifice brood as necessary) and then push the cell slightly into a well populated frame of brood and bees. Unsealed honey cells around the brood give good adhesion but it is important that there are enough bees to keep the cell warm. Always check the colonies 14 days after you expect the queen to hatch. If you check too early you may see a virgin queen (she is usually pretty quick on her feet) but they are a bit flighty and it is best to wait until she has had her mating flights and returned so you can check that the laying pattern is satisfactory. Some mating flights fail due to lack of drones of the right age and the queen will be a drone layer. This will not become evident for 2 weeks when the brood is sealed. There are a number of good books on queen breeding and experience is also a great teacher. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam From: Christopher Sauer Organization: Divine Word College Subject: Re: 6 dimensional bee dance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E295F880D55DF7D252553EFE" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E295F880D55DF7D252553EFE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those that have audio on their computers can access the NPR report at http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/archives/971205.atc.html Chris --------------E295F880D55DF7D252553EFE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Christopher Sauer Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Christopher Sauer n: Sauer;Christopher org: Divine Word College email;internet: sauer@mwci.net title: Director, ESL Institute note: tel. (319) 876-3353 ext. 209 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------E295F880D55DF7D252553EFE-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:14:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen REPOSTed 12/9 to make reading and printing easier.. At 07:47 PM 12/7/97 -0500, \\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: >There are things that change in this world of ours, especially in the medical >and veterinary fields. Any one who at this day and age believes that be mites >can be lived with without treatment definitely belongs in one of the following >classifications: Well my good doctor I must disagree with you and I hope I do it in a way not to make fun of any other poster. First I must say this again and again NO beekeeper should be treating for any kind of mites or any other pest or disease that does not have them. Second, any treatments for the trachea or any of the acarine mites has little or no economic value as this pest comes and goes in most commercial apiaries wit hout economic harm in the majority of apiaries studied. Third, any chemical treatments no matter what or how harmless the material is or said to be should not be used without some known threshold of initial treatment level information based on study and this is deficient in most all mite treatment recommendations I have seen including those approved by government regula tors. One of the major problems I have seen in the US is that beekeepers treat their bees with whatever is the popular or government regulated treatment of the day and their bees still die in the winter and these losses are today said to be mite related when they may or may not have any thing whatsoever to do with mites and only a continuation of what has been the norm of the past. The other side of that coin history shows that beekeepers are very, very slow to abandon treatments and only by the removal of a product from production will they stop using it. I won't list these products but will say that no one can fault the beekeepers who continue to use them as long as they could as most all of these products were better and always's less expensive then the products that replaced them and in many cases the replacement are no less safe to use and are not as effective. >1. He/she knows nothing about bee mites, especially Varroa. >2. He/she is not a beekeeper, if he/she is, he/she better quit beekeeping to >avoid bankruptcy. >3. He/she likes disappointments. >4. He/she should start reading more recent literature on bee mites. >As stated before, it is okay to express one's personal opinions in >democratic countries, Will I ain't no Democrat myself and many of the readers here may not be the least bit interested in politics anyway and are as far as I know most are only expressing their own opinion's based on their own experience or what they have read or heard from reliable sources. I don't believe that using any unnecessary tr eatment is justified because of someone's faith in any brand of politick's or the outcome as advertised by that treatments promoter, which may in itself lead to your number two above just as fast as a more conservative non treatment approach to beekeeping which is as natural as the history of bees not surviving the winter to spite all the care given by their keepers. >however, to poke fun at a subject which is so significant to the future of >beekeeping in particular and humanity in general, is insincere. I sure did not read any "poking fun" in any post on Wintergreen and only read what has been reported in both private and public research papers on the TRACHEA mites that live off of honey bees in the US and Europe. There are two very interesting Revelations about all these bee problems and the first is for the last 90 years of so the symptoms for the major unexplained traumatic losses of bees have been the same but every few years the cause and treatment changes due to what is called BS. I won't outline the unchanging symptoms now because they should be well known to all by this time as most so called BS papers in the last 20 years have quoted them line for line. The second realization is that with the TRACHEA or acarine mite that there is a spontaneous rise and decline in its population in all long term hive studies, and that this has also been reported by several creditable observations with the Varroa mite without any beekeeper intervention or treatment. It is too early to say if this is going to be the norm for Varroa and all of this is compounded because so few are not treating with something or the other and it is near impossible to find untreated bees to study. >In my humble opinion, we need to assume a more responsible attitude >regarding bee mites. If this means that we all should follow then you are in for a big disappointment as beekeepers are not followers and by their own nature are going to seek different paths around any problem. I don't know why this is but it is the way it is in both the science of beekeeping and the husbandry of bees and what makes our bee science and bee business different from all others in agriculture. If all inputs into bees were the same each season the outcomes would still be differ ent from year to year. This makes honey bees very poor subjects for science other then reported observations and has frustrated scientists with beekeepers whom some have said are poor in following directions because their scientific observations could not be repeated by the beekeepers. IMHO, ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Opinions are not always based on facts. All are welcome to use my own. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:20:08 +0200 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marian Pintilie Organization: - Subject: Re: "Moving Hives" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John I can story to you what happened to somebody, from which we bought the last hives. they moved all hives, downhill,(a lot , over 100) was snow and cold. I do not know the temperature (even approx). Survived only few, very weak. I suppose the explanation is simple. Bees falled, and was unable to join back. So, if is a must, maybe a solution is to move them in a warmed car and than lat the car freezing back slowly to give time to reorganize. Of course, you should consider all detailes; temperature time for cooling, care not to lose them out of hive etc I wish you luck regards Costel John M. Wolford wrote: > > BEE-L, > > I am needing to relocate a couple of hives. It is nearly winter here in > Kentucky and also pretty cool. The bees appear not to be flying much. > > Question: Will moving hives at this time be ok? Will I damage the colony > by doing this? I will be moving them approximately 8 miles. > > John M. Wolford ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:37:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brett D Bannon Subject: waxing snow sleds Greeting from a white New Mexico I took my children sledding last Sunday after we have accumulated quite a snow pack on the north slopes. We have received close to 50 inches of snow (El Nino effect). Snows, melts, snows, melts, school bus can't get to our house unless the roads are frozen. Anyway someone suggested waxing the sleds to help them slide better. Thought I would ask the Bee-List if this works, how you do it, etc. Is beeswax good. How about paraffin. Thanks in advance. Brett D. Bannon Folsom, NM USA bbannon@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:54:08 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: re temperature bees fly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear beekeepers There was a topic "a temperature bees fly". I wanted to tell you my = story but had no enough time then. We had an unusual long and cold winter in 1995-96. The snow was thick = (up to knees). On 24.02.96. I visited my bees in a country in a midday. = An air temperature was minus 5 dg.C ( 23 dg. F ). Entirely cloudy, no = sun seen. I found many bees laying on the snow dead. Some 20-30 where = flying around a hive. Later I noticed some titmouses pecking my bees = resting on a snow and refusing the dead ones. I saw an ocular evidence = the little birds irritated my bees by "pecking" the hive. It's a = confirmation of a warning in a beekeeping book. I scared the birds away = and covered the hives entrances carefully with branches of a firtree. = This helped. After a week on 08.03.96 an air temperature was 0 dg.C ( 32 dg. F ). = Midday, sunny without a cloud. Our bees of almost all hives had spring = flying continuing more than 2 hours. The bees evacuated and a snow = around became yellow. Some bees landed on a snow and sucked water drops = on the snow. By the way, the titmouses were around again. Such behaviour of my bees I saw first time. Such cases were in all = Lithuania this winter. A hard wintering for bees. Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt Radioelectronics engineer, 52. 15 yrs beekeeper, 3 Carnicas in Dadant = hives.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:17:48 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stewart Beattie Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 04 Dec, Todd Flanders wrote: > Manley described regular use of oil of wintergreen for treating acarine -- > I think that was in the 40's. > He used a small bottle set at a rear corner of the hive (on the floor), > with some sort of wick to draw the oil up. Apparently this treatment was > part of the regular wintering preparations. > > Perhaps someone in the UK could explain what ever became of this practice > ... or, has anyone seen it described or used in other areas? > > > I experienced some problems a few years ago. The parasite is still in my hives but does not seem to have the bad effect as America seems to be experiencing. Would question if it,s the bees that have become resistant, could it be that the mite has developed into a less damaging strain only showing symptoms when the bees are suffering from other problems. It would be interesting to here from hives, going down with varroa show acarine problems? Stewart Cumbria, UK. (an old Gable-Endie) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:07:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:14:00 GMT Andy Nachbaur writes: >First I must say this again and again NO beekeeper should be treating >for any kind of mites or any other pest or disease that does not have >them. Well said OLd Drone ! First thing that popped into my mind when I read your post was .... somehow it seems like the situation where some folks take Ex-Lax on a regular daily basis just in the event they should perchance experience irregularity. Al, ----------------------------------------------------------- awneedham@juno.com - Scituate,MA,USA The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:01:31 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: "Moving Hives" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Question: Will moving hives at this time be ok? Will I damage the colony > > by doing this? I will be moving them approximately 8 miles. It's around freezing today and we are out moving yards of bees around in their yards and to other locations. Since they are all wrapped up, it is simple to pick up a four-pack and take it away with a forklift. (No snow here yet). We don't worry much at temperatures around freezing, but are careful not to bang the hives around much. Normal forklift and truck motions are no problem, but a sharp bang can break the cluster resulting in some loss of bees (when they are knocked out of the cluster and some get chilled). At this time of year they are usually near the floorboard in a two storey hive. Occasionally, in the past, the odd hive has been known to get dropped in the snow. After being put back together as well as possible under the circumstances such hives usually make it through the winter anyhow, so the bees are pretty tough if they are strong and well provisioned. We've moved bees at near zero Celcius temperatures -- and sometimes colder -- for years with no ill effects. Allen --- * Want to cut the volume of mail from BEE-L? * Want to improve the signal to noise ratio? Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:35:28 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971208150237.007babe0@calwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 8 Dec 97 at 15:02, Andy Nachbar wrote: > Second, any treatments for the trachea or any of the acarine mites > has little or no economic value as this pest comes and goes in most > commercial apiaries without economic harm in the majority of > apiaries studied. While I usually defer to Andy's knowledge I cannot agree with this statement. With a 'true' diagnosis of T-mites, rather than a suspected infestation, to leave untreated means the certain death of the colony. I have never heard of T-mites curing themselves!!! I would venture to say, it has to be economic to treat a hive. A few cents for medication as against the complete replacement of bees. Suicide economics are not for me!!! Of course, a far better solution, to re-queen with proven T-mite resistant stock, and no medication. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:03:18 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Lithiania beekeeping pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And here they are from the other site of Europ THE LITHIANIA BEEKEEPING PICTURES http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/LithPict.html please be patience about the download time greeting, jan -- Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | EMAIL:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:06:55 -0400 Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: waxing snow sleds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brett D Bannon wrote: > > Greeting from a white New Mexico > > I took my children sledding last Sunday after we have accumulated quite a > snow pack on the north slopes. We have received close to 50 inches of > snow (El Nino effect). Snows, melts, snows, melts, school bus can't get > to our house unless the roads are frozen. Anyway someone suggested > waxing the sleds to help them slide better. Thought I would ask the > Bee-List if this works, how you do it, etc. Is beeswax good. How about > paraffin. Thanks in advance. > > Brett D. Bannon > Folsom, NM USA > bbannon@juno.com My daughter says: "Paraffin is best. Move it in one direction, the direction of the sled, for speed. To slow it down a bit, wax at right angles to the direction of the sled. Eunice 'From The Cradle of Confederation' ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:07:33 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen In-Reply-To: <19971209204052231.AAA330@lizard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On 8 Dec 97 at 15:02, Andy Nachbar wrote: > > > Second, any treatments for the trachea or any of the acarine mites > > has little or no economic value as this pest comes and goes in most > > commercial apiaries without economic harm in the majority of > > apiaries studied. > > While I usually defer to Andy's knowledge I cannot agree with this > statement. With a 'true' diagnosis of T-mites, rather than a > suspected infestation, to leave untreated means the certain death of the > colony. I have never heard of T-mites curing themselves!!! Well, we have had the dreaded T Mites for a number of years now and although we sample regularly we have never seen TM levels high enough to justify the expense and bother to the bees that treatment entails. We have _never_ treated -- although I have all the stuff here at the ready. Yes we have some winter losses, but they do not in any way corelate to the fall TM sample results in the various locations. > Of course, a far better solution, to re-queen with proven T-mite > resistant stock, and no medication. Hmmm. What is mite resistant? FWIW, we use queens from local sources, NZ, Aus, and Hawaii and their colonies all seem to run about the same TM infestation levels. (<10%) For some reason, some of our locations seem to consistently have higher levels of mites and others zero. We don't know why. Any ideas? Allen --- * Want to cut the volume of mail from BEE-L? * Want to improve the signal to noise ratio? Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:48:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Dostall Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about Polio vaccine ---------- > From: Al Needham > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen > Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 2:07 PM > > On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:14:00 GMT Andy Nachbaur > writes: > > >First I must say this again and again NO beekeeper should be treating > >for any kind of mites or any other pest or disease that does not have > >them. > > Well said OLd Drone ! First thing that popped into my mind when > I read your post was .... somehow it seems like the situation where > some folks take Ex-Lax on a regular daily basis just in the event > they should perchance experience irregularity. > > Al, > ----------------------------------------------------------- > awneedham@juno.com - Scituate,MA,USA > The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site > http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:12:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:48:19 -0500 Tim Dostall writes: >What about Polio vaccine Five points up on the wall ! :-) Al, ----------------------------------------------------------- awneedham@juno.com - Scituate,MA,USA The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:32:05 +0100 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: "Moving Hives" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John M. Wolford wrote: > > BEE-L, > > I am needing to relocate a couple of hives. It is nearly winter here in > Kentucky and also pretty cool. The bees appear not to be flying much. > > Question: Will moving hives at this time be ok? Will I damage the colony > by doing this? I will be moving them approximately 8 miles. > > John M. Wolford Dear Mr. Wolford, there shouldn't be any problem moving the hives at a temperature above freezing point of water and in these days at the beginning of the cold period. If you are waiting too long, then I would prefer changing the hives' places after the first flights of the bees in springtime. Otherwise you may cause more Nosema and eventually some losses. With regards Dr. Reimund Schuberth beekeeping - queen rearing of carniolan bees - insemination Bavaria - Germany ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:07:22 +0100 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: Introducing Ripe Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > > Hi All > > I am a first year beekeeper. I have come across procedures in beekeeping > books which call for introducing ripe queen cells into colonies. I cannot > recall having seen a procedure for actually doing this. Why are you waiting for ripe queen cells and don't produce one. Then you even know the day, when queens come out of their cells? > > I have not yet seen a queen cell in one of my beehives. I do not know what a > ripe cell looks like. I do know, that the queen cells are somewhat acorn > like, and may be in the centre of combs if they are supercedure cells, or on > the bottom of combs if they are swarming cells. Perhaps you have a good young queen with less intention to swarm. Mostly they are the old ones which produce several queen cells. If you have a good hive you should use the genetic potential of its queen and not wait for queen cells of a hive that swarms a lot. > > What exactly does one do, to remove the cell without damage from the colony > in which it starts, and then how does one 'affix' it to the colony into > which it is to be introduced. For removing of the cells you should use a warm (heated) knife. Take care of the queen insite the cell. Don't hurt it. You can affix it by several methods (needle, cork-clips, wax-fixation at a wooden splint and so on). > Is there a preferred time of day to do this, Cut the cell out just before the time(1-2 days) of the queen's natural hatching. Leave enough wax around the cell. > what are the chances of success, and how does one guard against failure?. The chances are above 90% if you do the cutting just in time. > > If anybody can help I would be most grateful as I intend to have a go at > some queen rearing next year. > > I am located just outside Dublin Ireland and it is now a very cold and wet > winter. Beekeeping will recommence here next April. > > Many thanks > > Sincerely > > Tom Barrett > 49 South Park > Foxrock > Dublin 18 > Ireland > > e mail: cssl@iol.ie with regards Dr. Reimund Schuberth from Bavaria / Germany beekeeping queen rearing (carniolan) insemination ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:36:12 +0000 Reply-To: luichart.woollens@virgin.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Organization: Luichart Woollens Subject: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Isle of Wight disease or acarine first appeared in Britain in 1904 and killed about 95 percent of the colonies. Brother Adam spent a lot of time dealing with this disease and came to the conclusion that resistance to the disease was hereditary. This conclusion would seem fit the conditions which exist today. The resistant bees have flourished and the susceptible ones have died out. It is interesting to note that he says that imported bees from North America and New Zealand were extremely susceptible to Acarine! (I hope that Nick Wallingford is not reading this!) It seems that althought we have acarine in Britain today our bees seem not to be to bothered with it. It would seem to be a case of Evolution working well. It seems a pity that we are so compelled to kill off the varroa mite. Perhaps we should just let it take its course. We might be left with a race of varroa resistant bees! -- Harry Scotland Knitwear Web pages: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/ Beekeeping Page: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/page8.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:51:17 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Harry wrote: > > Isle of Wight disease or acarine first appeared in Britain in > 1904 and killed about 95 percent of the colonies... It seems a pity > that we are so compelled to kill off the varroa mite. Perhaps we > should just let it take its course. We might be left with a race of > varroa resistant bees! I doubt that agriculture is ready for the kind of hit proposed here. Perhaps, eventually varroa and Apis m. would evolve to a happy coexistence. Perhaps varroa would wipe out their new host and itself in the process, and be left in its original area (that of Apis c.). The "natural environment" has been influenced by man to the extent that Harry's "let it be" proposal is not possible. My biggest varroa hit wiped out 75% of my hives ('95-'96). I am not willing or able to endure that again. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave from Scranton Subject: Re: Promotion by the National Honey Board In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971202174752.00858800@calwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Andy Nachbar wrote: > > What I did find out was this "Save the Honey Bee" was not supported my most > in the industry because it was suspected that it was more intended to > promote a GM product then give any meaningful help to the bee industry > because of long time experiences with this company by those in the bulk > honey industry. It's not like GM promoted it very much, I didn't see anything other than a message here with 3.5 weeks left in the campaign. That was not really enough time to do much other than buy a box or two of cereal! ****************************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | The Internet Cafe | Scranton, Pennsylvania | (717) 344-1969 | dave@scranton.com | ****************************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:15:16 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. I fully agree, Aaron. That and only that was the intent of my first message on this subject. Thirteen years of intensive work with Varroa mites have taught me that these mites are far more damaging than tracheal mites and that they can not be left alone least one wishes to sacrifice ones bees. Peace on Earth to all mankind. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:54:01 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: JOIN THE CREW and have some GOODTIMES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In addition to the URLs previously posted on BEE-L where one can learn about net hoaxes (including viruses - search for 'virus' and 'hoax' or maybe 'GOODTIMES') I came across the following URL that I thought worthy of passing on... http://www.cnet.com/Content/Features/Dlife/Truth/index.html It was sent along as an afterthought by an embarrassed newbie friend who had just flooded his whole address book with a "JOIN THE CREW' warning . Does it have anything to do with bees? No, I don't think so. Does it have anything to do with understanding what to believe and what not to (think miracle cures, etc.). I do think so. Enjoy. Flames to ../dev/nul Peace to ../~all Allen --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:27:26 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WUhlman Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Australian Beekeepers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am a U.S. hobbyist (sometimes lawyer) visiting Australia for the third time next month and would like to contact an Aussie counterpart for observation & discussion. I am will be in Adelaide on 15 January, in Sydney on 12 & 13 January and Adelaide15 January. If anyone is available to share some time on any of these dates, please let me know Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:08:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Acarine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 To all who like a little history and believe in fair play, even for the tracheal mite. = Having stirred up quite a thread because of my remarks about the mite I thought its history might be worth recounting. In the English Channel, just off the coast of southern England, lies a small island, the Isle of Wight. In 1904 some of its bees started to sicken and die. This sicknes= s spread until almost all the bees in the island were wiped out. As was to= be expected it crossed the narrow strip of water and appeared in nearby England and slowly spread over the whole country, creating havoc and wipi= ng out whole apiaries It naturally took on the name of the Isle of Wight Disease. The experts were called in but could find no answer. In desperation beekeepers tried all manner of treatments to no avail until i= n 1919 a researcher chanced to look at the main tracheae and found the mite= s. Problem solved. We have a new disease. The mite was christened Acarapi= s Woodi ( a Mr Wood had financed the researcher who found the mite) and Acarine disease was established. Incidentally I was two years old at the= time so did not take notice until much later. Two of the obvious signs o= f this disease were mass crawling and dislocated wings so these signs went into all the text books as due to the mites. = As soon as the discovery of the mites was broadcast they were found in Switzerland, France and Czecho-Slovakia. Later on they were found all ov= er Europe, Russia, Africa and South America. The obvious conclusion was tha= t the mite had been around all the time just waiting to be discovered. A humble beekeeper (my hazy memory tells me he was a railway employee) a = Mr Frow, came forward with a cure composed in part of petrol (gasoline) and benzene, whose fumes killed the mites but unfortunately killed any open brood and lots of the older bees so sometimes it did more harm than good.= = Then Oil of Wintergreen came along and became the standard treatment. Mo= st beekeepers had no microscope so treatment became routine, whether the mit= es were present or not. Sometime after the second world war along came Folbex and then Folbex VA,= more toxic smokes. They were found to leave undesirable residues in the beeswax and were withdrawn from the market. Since then there has been no= legal treatment and gradually beekeepers stopped worrying about it. = Around the sixties research showed that crawling and dislocated wings had= nothing to do with the mites but was due to viruses. To date some twenty viruses have been found in honey bees around the world. Apparently Arkansas has its own special brand (see Morse). For most of the time the= se lie dormant but wake up and take over if the bees are stressed. Moreover= our leading bee pathologist found that colonies with a high level of mite= infestation could thrive and produce surplus honey and that bees with mit= es in both tracheae could fly and forage quite happily. The only direct effect of the mites was a slight shortening of life. It was decided that= any sickness was an indirect result in that mite bites allowed bacteria= to enter the blood and thus poison the bee. The main source of trouble from acarine arises when the stock goes into winter heavily infested. If we have a situation in the spring where the new brood is delayed due to weather, poor queen, lack of pollen, etc.the old bees will be dying off and the death rate may be greater than the bir= th rate and the stock dwindles and dies. Short of checking by dissectiion o= r blanket treatment of all colonies in early autumn whilst still breeding I= do not see how anyone can anticipate this. IMHO and certainly in the opinion of researchers the danger of tracheal mites is overrated. You can only be sure of their presence by dissection so without that it is pointless to treat. I think its effect = on a healthy colony is minimal. If the colony is sick do not immediately blame acarine. Look for trouble elsewhere. AFB, EFB, CPV, APV, Nosema, Dysentery, to name the most likely ones, are all waiting in the wings The= first book on every beekeepers bookshelf should be one on bee diseases an= d their recognition. = For the sake of any beginners reading this I must emphasise that the abov= e has nothing whatever to do with that other well known mite, Varroa. That= needs careful treatment. It was first found in England in 1992, spread rapidly through the southern counties and in 94-95 wiped out some 5o% of the colonies. It now covers the country. I think we have it under contro= l although it is still early days. Thanks to a European directive the only= legal treatment is now Bayvarol (a close relative of Apistan) We have ju= st received a warning that resistance to Apistan has now spread from Italy across Europe to parts of France. How soon before it jumps the Channel? = = Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:27:23 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen In-Reply-To: <199712041957.TAA17285@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Over the past few days the debate about mites and their treatment has rumbled on, with many contradictory positions being taken up and arguments advanced by most parties to support their views. Some of these views have been sensible and practical, whilst others are bizarre and seem to be founded on some personal 'bee in their bonnet' rather than common sense. The first point I would like to make is that I cannot see how the experience with acarine mites teaches us anything much about varroa mites. To lump them together and assume that because something happened with acarine it will eventually happen with varroa is false. They are entirely different beasts who happen to be mites; the only thing they have in common. It is like saying that "bears and mice are both hairy mammals and thus alike. Both are pests to beehives and the treatment for one will eventually control the other." Obvious nonsense. Some people are drawing these kind of conclusions and I feel that is dangerous. Varroa is a very serious pest indeed and regarding it in even a slightly casual manner WILL bring you disaster once it reaches you. The old term 'Isle of Wight disease' has also recently appeared. It is fair to point out that there is still to this day some debate as to exactly what this was, and although the balance of opinion points to acarine (with which conclusion my father and myself concur), some authorities are more in favour of nosema. It could well be that it was a much more complicated situation than that, with the first wave of acarine, already damaging in itself, being added to by a range of opportunist complaints coming along to finish off already weakened colonies, and indeed this 'multiple infection' scenario has also been mooted by some experts. The apparent lack of current problems due to acarine in many areas is also occasionally being put down to a loss of vigour in the mites. My own experience tends to refute this. We have, back in the 70's and 80's, imported several different strains of bee from USA and New Zealand. Certain strains, particularly caucasians from the southern states of USA, were decimated in a relatively short time by acarine mites, which should not have happened if the mites had lost their vigour. Other strains were largely untouched. I believe that some strains are more tolerant than others and that in all countries affected by this mite a population will gradually emerge which is capable of living with it. Climatic factors could also play a part in this, with bees tolerant of these mites in say Florida or Texas not being able to tolerate them so well in say Vermont or Washington (or Scotland) and possibly the opposite is also true, which could account for the poor initial indications with European strains when tested in the USA. There has also been debate of what is a pesticide and what is not. An argument has been advanced that anything used to kill a certain pest is a pesticide, which, if correct, therefore must include all things which are physical, chemical or biological killers. In real life this would therefore include organophosphates in the same category as mouse traps: both being deemed to be pesticides. Perhaps in a narrow sense this would be correct, but common sense dictates otherwise. I have great difficulty considering Dr. Rodriguez's mineral oil as a pesticide, but some other chemicals most certainly are. I am also extremely wary of those who regard 'natural' as automatically good and 'synthetic' as automatically bad. This bring me on to the climate of hysteria surrounding Apistan and Bayvarol. The active ingredient is fluvalinate, a synthetic pyrethroid. Pyrethroids are the substances, with insecticidal properties, derived from crysanthemums. It is quite possible, and indeed widely practiced by some gardeners, to crush up crysanthemum leaves, make an infusion, and spray it on plants as a completely natural form of pest control. It could even be deemed organic. Dosage levels are uncontrolled but no-one would mind because the treatment is 'natural'. Why then do we have such a difficulty in coming to terms with what is more or less a man made copy of these substances, and administered in correctly regulated amounts. Although there are now some fairly benign treatments being proposed I cannot see why fluvalinate is considered so bad by so many correspondents. The nature of the substances are such that, in aqueous environments, they quickly degrade away to non-existent levels, but in oil based environments, such as wax, or plastic strips, they are readily preserved. The idea of producing POISONOUS honey from hives which have been treated and have residues in the wax is largely a myth, and certainly a gross over-reaction resulting from misconstruing the nature of the substances involved, and is, commercially, a very dangerous line to be voicing. Treat at the correct times, keep your honey clean and properly filtered and/or sell comb honey from virgin wax only and you will not have a problem. In the UK certain high profile individuals are actively promoting formic acid as a 'natural' alternative. This definitely is a noxious substance with a far longer active life in honey than fluvalinate, but even so will have its place, in properly regulated dosages, in a mixed program of varroa treatments. I do not yet know enough about mineral oil, which is currently the subject of so much debate, to pass informed comment on it, but it does seem to be a relatively harmless substance. However, almost all the other varroa treatments being suggested, such as drone trapping, are, in my opinion, best used as supplementary measures to support the principle treatments. One thing is clear to me: we do not have the 'leave it alone, it will be alright in the end' option with varroa. NOT treating your bees is the cruel option here, because if you don't they will almost all die, and then you will eventually have no bees in any quantity worth speaking about. It WILL get you in the end, even the 'MY bees are fine, even though everyone around me has varroa' people! I sure would like the 'Thou shalt not treat, for then we shall achieve true immunity' brigade to come and tell my 16 employees why they are out of work, and my 60 or so suppliers why they won't get paid, and my 40 or so fruit farmers dependent on us for pollination why they will have a bad crop for at least the next 20 years. That would be the inevitable conclusion of a no treatment regime for varroa. The development of truly varroa resistant or tolerant strains is a highly specialised field requiring many many years of work, without guarantee of success. To think that we could do it simply by removing treatment and breeding only from survivors is flirting with catastrophy. Similarly, whilst appreciating the logic behind the idea of not treating for diseases and pests which are not present, I cannot agree, for reasons of commercial neccessity, with such a general remark. Part of good medicine and management is preventing problems building up to the point where radical treatment is needed. A simple and somewhat crass example would be that you fit mouse guards BEFORE you have a mice problem, not once these pests are there. Similarly we would blanket feed ALL our colonies Fumidil-B if it was evident that nosema was on a rising trend in our apiaries, thus preventing an epidemic of it. Once varroa is present in our area we will need to treat ALL colonies at key times, again to prevent heavy losses. For the security of my family and my employees we have no alternative. Sensible preventative measures are sound economically and, when not used indiscriminately, need not cause premature development of resistance to the treatment. As always, the above is my opinion based on the facts as presented by those who know technical matters better than I do, supported by our own observations. If you have had the stamina to get this far without falling asleep through boredom, thank you for your time! -- Murray McGregor, Denrosa Ltd Victoria St. Coupar Angus Perthshire Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:29:48 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... I do not yet know enough about mineral oil, which is currently the > subject of so much debate, to pass informed comment on it, but it does > seem to be a relatively harmless substance. Good post. The largest problem to my mind, if any, associated with using oils in the hive is that waxes and oils are fully miscible. With heavy use over time, here is some likelihood of the wax in combs taking up significant amounts of oil and changing in composition enough to have the purity be questioned by some buyers. Allen --- You can search the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L "key phrase" Substitute a key phrase for "key phrase" above. and remember to use the double quotes to exclude hits on the individual words in the phrase --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:49:16 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "A.Piercy" Subject: varroa and lactic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've been reading comments about unnecessary treatments of bees and the possible dangers. I have just been to the national Bee Show in London and met a bee pathologist from the Ministry of agriculture, Farming and Fisheies (MAFF) and he had a story of a beekeeper who treated with lactic acid (referred to as a soft chemical in britain) and had massive bee loss of around a 100 colonies due to not getting it quite right. Clearly some of the technical problems to do with treatment are not as straight forward as they have been sometimes represented. Andrew Piercy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:24:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Acarine On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:08:07 -0500 Sid Pullinger writes: >To all who like a little history and believe in fair play,...... >received a warning that resistance to Apistan has now spread from >Italy across Europe to parts of France. How soon before it jumps the >Channel? Sid --- Isn't it more likely to come across in a comfortable sleeper on the channel train ? Al, ----------------------------------------------------------- awneedham@juno.com - Scituate,MA,USA The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:19:44 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" Subject: Re: tracheal mites, bee mortality and resistance MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Resolving the apparent inconsistencies in reports of colony mortality from tracheal mites, etc. pointed out by Andy and Allen, is not possible in a quick message, but a lot more good information is available. The "truth" of the situation varies between different areas and likely over time as well. I've monitored a lot of colonies in western Canada for more than 10 years, from before the time the mites were present here (yes, they were NOT present before 1986, and are still absent from some areas) and have studied the effect of several miticides, and worked for several years on developing more resistant bee stock. I'll try to put down some statements that are consistent with what I've observed: In the bee colonies here, tracheal mites regularly increased to levels that would be considered very high and unusual compared to the populations described by Bailey in Britain. This could result from differences in the bees and/or the mites. I was unable to see any colony symptoms of even very high (more than 80 % of bees have tracheal mites) infestations, during the summer foraging season. The effect on winter mortality of a certain level of infestation in colonies here has been quite similar to the effect reported from Europe. A rough description of this effect is: the added probability of colony winter mortality is about equal to the tracheal mite infestation percentage in the fall. ie. if a beekeeper had 10 % winter mortality without mites, then had colonies with 40 % of the bees having tracheal mites, the mortality would be (10 + 40 =) 50 %. (This "rule" overestimates the effect at the low end and perhaps underestimates it at the high end: we see little effect when infestations are below 20 %, but above 80 % almost no colony would survive). It may not be the same in Florida. Our area varies from a temperate climate with wet winter and a bit of snow (like Britain) to a continental climate with longer winter (mostly frozen from November 1 into April, but a much better honey flow). The longer winter results in poorer winter success anyway, but also accentuates the winter effect of a given level of mites and makes earlier intervention necessary. However, bees in the continental area have typically had less frequent high tracheal mite populations. (My feeling about this is that the usual more intense honey flows (50 to 100 kg crop) in the continental area wear out mite-infested foraging bees before the bees have lived long enough to produce a good crop of tracheal mites. Combined with the rapid growth rate of bee colonies in this area, the tracheal mite population often stays lower than in the south coastal area.) Treatment for tracheal mites? I use 20 % (of bees examined, having tracheal mites) in fall as a threshold: the further above this, the greater the risk of winter loss, so the greater the potential benefit of treatment. The further below 20 %, the less benefit per cost of treatment. In the north, effective fall treatment of high infestations is difficult because brood rearing decreases greatly in September, and high infested colonies have increased mortality even if the mites are killed by late fall treatment. In the south, September treatment is effective (the mites get killed, then the bee population is replaced). Since Varroa became a major influence, less attention has been paid to tracheal mites, and things may have changed. Resistant bees? From the first year that tracheal mites were found in large apiaries, there were colonies that remained low-infested in the same yards where others became highly infested. I worked on a project to select from commercial North American stocks (with Page and Gary's newly-emerged bee assay) over 5 to 10 generations, stocks that picked up the least tracheal mites. It wasn't a "black and white" effect (we used isolated yard natural mating rather than AI), but by 1994, the 3 lines in this group compared to 3 Buckfast lines were at least as resistant as the European. It's very likely that natural selection was operating all over North America to result in the same effect, and perhaps also to reduce the survival of very high reproducing mite varieties (this isn't necessarily a contradiction to survival of the fittest, it's a part of most host-parasite relationships). There is clear good evidence of increased winter mortality of colonies at higher tracheal mite infestations, and some environments seem to favour higher mite levels. We don't know whether the frequency of such higher infestations is decreasing, but it seems likely. Kerry Clark, Apiculture Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 1201 103 Ave Dawson Creek B.C. V1G 4J2 CANADA Tel (250) 784-2231 fax (250) 784-2299 INTERNET kclark@galaxy.gov.bc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:12:59 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Sanford Subject: Tracheal mite history MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adding to the thread on tracheal mite history: From the pages of APIS , May 1985 TRACHEAL MITES--TO EXPERIMENT OR NOT TO EXPERIMENT [Editor's note 5/11/1997--this presaged the arrival of the Varroa mite; much of the information is relevant for both tracheal and Varroa. Tracheal mites have all but disappeared in Mexico; one possible reason is that treatment was never used and only the resistant strains survived. The arrival of the African bee also introduces more variables in that country.] Beekeepers have always been experimenters. And there's little doubt this kind of study has advanced the craft considerably over the centuries. The tradition continues as the current confusing situation over tracheal mites persists. I have heard that a number of beekeepers are experimentally treating colonies with a wide range of chemicals in order to "control" mite infestations. The reasons why experienced bee researchers and others blanch at the thought are legion. They range from a wish to obtain for themselves highly infested colonies, not all that common, for study that have not been tampered with, to fear for the experimenting beekeeper's safety. Many persons are understandibly frustrated by the apparent lack of research going on to control tracheal mites. That's particularly true for those in already infested areas (now offically all of Florida) as opposed to others who stubbornly assert that no mites exist in their states or operations. Beyond the politics of the situation, however, lies the real world of making the kind of research decisions needed that lead to effective solutions. Dr. Elbert Jaycox has recently written an article in his beekeeping newsletter that points out some of the major kinds of decisions that must be made as research begins on chemical compounds for possible use either in quarantine or field treatments of infested bees. First and foremost, Dr. Jaycox says, relates to the type of material to use--fumigant or systemic. Fumigants must be able to disperse widely within a colony and penetrate the breathing tubes of all the bees in a colony to kill mites. Systemics are chemical compounds fed to bees that must be eaten, absorbed by the bees and then kill mites that feed on the bees blood (haemolymph). To be useful, he continues, both fumigant and systemics must kill the mites without killing many bees and not leave toxic residues which contaminate honey or wax. Historically, Dr. Jaycox says, fumigants have been relied on for tracheal mite control. In at least one case, they have killed infested bees, weakening a colony. Many materials have killed all the mites in lightly infested colonies, but have rarely been effective when bees are heavily infested. The reasons include: (1) the fumigant doesn't reach all bees; (2) when it does reach all bees, it doesn't reach all the mites. Their may be as many as eighty adult mites, thirty-one larvae and eight eggs in a single bee. These can plug the breathing tubes (tracheae) so the fumigant will not enter. In addition, mites may be located deep inside an individual bee. They have been found in the smaller branches of the trachea and in air sacs in the head. According to Dr. Jaycox, therefore, "Probably because of these problems, Dr. Wolfgang Ritter and his associates in Germany found that colonies treated eight time at 4- to 7-day intervals with Folbex VA (bromopropylate) still contained bees infested with live mites." Additional problems posed by fumigants, according to Dr. Jaycox, include differing resistance of mite eggs, larvae and adults. Because eggs are so difficult to kill, two fumigant treatments, timed to allow eggs to hatch, have better chances at control than one. In order to kill all mites in package bees, for example, Dr. Jaycox says they will probably have to be stored four to seven days and treated twice with effective miticides. This added expenses for the producer must also be passed on to the consumer. Systemic treatments for mites allow for closer control of dosage than using fumigants, Dr. Jaycox says, and they also reduce possibility of contamination of hive bodies, frames, and wax. At the same time however, chances of leaving residues in honey increase, because nectar is processed by materials added by individual bees themselves. Not giving enough chemical to bees can also result in creating resistant strains or mites, according to Dr. Jaycox, which has already been observed with the use of phenothiazine in Japan. If one carefully examines the above, it can be inferred that quality effective research on tracheal mites is no easy task. A great number of questions need to be answered. In infested bees, are the mites killed and not the bees? How many? All? How can it be shown they are actually dead? Remember, to evaluate a study requires infested bees be laboriously dissected and examined under a microscope by trained persons. In addition, any experiment that appears to work, must be repeatable to ensure reliability. Given that specific bees are destroyed to determine if materials are killing mites, it must be proven that repeat experiments are not somehow effected by bees removed during earlier trials. Finally, no experiment is worth much without a control, an untreated colony in the exact same state genetically, qualitatively (same stores, amount of brood) and infested to the same degree as the colony being treated. This provides the basis for comparison to show a material's effectiveness. In bee research, developing effective control colonies is often the most difficult part of an experiment. This is because to be shown to be generally effective, experiments must usually be conducted on a large scale involving a great number of both infested and control colonies. Does all this mean that experimentation with tracheal mites is something best left to the "experts. Not necessarily. Without resorting to chemicals, the beekeeper has at his/her disposal all the material needed to effectively and safely experiment with controlling mites--the honey bee's variable genetic complement. Selecting colonies that appear to be resistant and then propagating queens from them is an age-old scheme that has been shown to be effective in controlling American foulbrood, swarming, and pollen collecting. Dr. Jaycox indicates that having bees resistant to mites would reduce losses and need for treating with chemicals. For example he mentions F.W. Calvert in England who has claimed that bees of the Buckfast strain could eliminate a mite infestation within twelve months and would prevent reinfestation. Unfortunatley, Dr. Leslie Bailey of Rothamsted Experimental Station was unable to confirm this resistance in Buckfast bees. A Beowulf Cooper, also of England, Dr. Jaycox says, reported he continually selected breeder queens from colonies resistant to mites and killed all infested colonies but one every winter. He used that one to infest the rest of the colonies in the spring as a continual selection process for resistance. Selecting for resistance is not an "exact" science. Rather, it is more of an estimate of the state of a colony because the specific genetic links that might cause resistance are not known. All the beekeeper can go on is whether a colony seems to be somehow better off than others in a specific setting under specific conditions. Brother Adam at Buckfast Abbey, for example, appears to select his mite- resistant colonies on the basis of whether or not they overwinter. This is over simplistic to be sure because many things besides mites will affect overwintering capability, but given so little knowledge of the specifics of mite resistance, it is elegantly simple and apparently effective. Selecting for genetic resistance is a far more forgiving and natural (some might even call it "organic") way to experiment without having to resort to potentially environmentally harmful chemicals and their possible complications. Dr. G.P. Georghiou, known worldwide for expertise in the area of insect resistance to pesticides and now retired from the University of California, has said that neither use of chemical toxicants nor development of resistance to chemicals by pest insects is recent. Life forms possess natural defense mechanisms to repel attacking organisms, developed over million of years of evolution. This is not only true for insect pests, but also for weeds and plant diseases, where chemicals have been developed for control. Some 447 insect species, 100 plant pathogens, 48 weeds and two species of nematodes are now resistant to chemical pesticides. In a recent series of articles in Agrichemical Age, A.D. LaFarge looked at pesticide resistance that has been building up in insects ever since D.D.T. was developed. She dubbed this the "Evolutionary Squeeze." A dramatic example of resistance is found in the Colorado potato beetle, which has, "weathered the onslaught of arsenicals, chlorinated hydrocarbons, organophosphorous compounds, carbamates and pyrethroids." Chemical manufacturers are also feeling the squeeze, according to Ms. LaFarge, who says that rate of introduction of new pesticides declined to almost nil between 1970 and 1980, while costs to develop a new chemical have risen from $1.2 million in 1956 to $30 million in 1984. For insect pest species, therefore, the most pressing future question is how to control pest populations as more and more become resistant to pesticides. The beekeeper would do well to look closely at the corrollary; that the perceived "problem" for pest species may be the best potential "answer" for maladies that affect honey bees. Indeed, it appears the beekeeper who continually experimentally selects stock for resistance to mites, chalkbrood, and European foulbrood will be way ahead of even the "experts" in knowledge and experience, if and when Varroa mites or Africanized honey bees arrive in this country. ============================================================================== Dr. Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Extension Apiculturist, University of Florida Bldg. 970, P.O. Box 110620, Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Ph. 352/392-1801 ext. 143 Fax 352/392-0190 E-mail: mts@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Publisher of the APIS newsletter: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis.htm To electronically subscribe, send the following to listserv@lists.ufl.edu: subscribe Apis-L First Name Last =============================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:13:31 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: varroa and lactic acid In-Reply-To: <2BEA6D80982@midhope.shef.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I've been reading comments about unnecessary treatments of bees and > the possible dangers. ... he had a story of a beekeeper who > treated with lactic acid (referred to as a soft chemical in britain) and > had massive bee loss of around a 100 colonies due to not getting it quite > right. Clearly some of the technical problems to do with treatment are > not as straightforward as they have been sometimes represented. Good point. In my experience talking candidly (over a beer -- maybe it was more than one?) with many beekeepers from all over North America, the most striking thing is how variable results from many of these treatments are. Public reports tend to emphasize the successes and gloss over the disasters. Thet results that are actually achieved in many of these treatments in actual apiaries are quite often different from what you are first told. Moreover, results are often not checked. For reasons of pride, many beekeepers will conceal the horror stories, and only come out with the whole truth after you reveal stupid mistakes you've personally made. You have to go first, it seems. FWIW The reason that Apistan(R) is considered such a standard treatment is that when it fails it makes the news. Such is the reliability and idiot-proof nature of Apistan that if you can figure out where the cluster is and manage to get the right number of strips into the correct position, you are virtually assured of success -- no matter what else you do. Not so with many other treatments that must be measured and mixed and placed just so, then, perhaps adjusted in position, then replenished etc. In such methods there are many reasons for spotty results, having to do with individual variations in 1.) equipment -- such as, but not limited to: * hive lid design and construction (insulated or not) * use of inner covers, * use of sacks, or carpet above the top brood chamber, * floor design, entrance width & use of reducers, * bee space above and below frames, * depth of boxes, * upper entrances and/or auger holes * tightness (newness) of equipment and 2.) individual practices which impact other significant factors such as: * hive stores, * populations, * cluster position * age of queens * genetics and 3.) other factors including: * temperatures at time of treatment, * time of year * ambient humity * purity (dilution) of product * additional treatments or substances in hives * the actual infestation levels at time of treatment * additional diseases or pests affecting poulations * history of the hive and -- here's a big one: 4.) the beekeeper's understanding of the treatment instructions Although there is great promise in some of these techniques, many are more art than science and work for one person one place, and not for another somewhere else. There are also many ways to do damage to the bees or beekeeper when dealing with some of these substances. Allen --- * Want to cut the volume of mail from BEE-L? * Want to improve the signal to noise ratio? Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:12:58 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Sanford Subject: Tracheal mite history MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adding to the thread on tracheal mite history: From the pages of APIS , April 1993. TRACHEAL MITE--ANOTHER CASE FOR RESISTANCE My recent trip to Northern Mexico revealed that problems with tracheal mite in that region described in the mid and late 1980s have abated. The reason is not clear, but a good guess is that susceptible stocks have been naturally replaced by those more resistant to the mite. This pattern of disastrous infestation followed by recovery has repeated itself elsewhere. It is instructive, for example, to look at an article first published by John Anderson about Isle of Wight disease associated with tracheal mite in the Scottish Journal of Agriculture. Vol. 6, pp. 181-191 and reprinted in The Speedy Bee, Vol. 21, No. 4, April, 1992. I cannot give justice to the full article here, but am selecting quotes which are revealing about the course of tracheal mite disease from 1906 to 1920: "Stocks affected rapidly dwindle, and usually succumb in about a month or six weeks, leaving their stores, and often a quantity of brood. The queen appears to keep healthy and survives to the last....A pasty mass of pollen grains is contained in the 'colon' or lower bowel of the bee and the insect appears to have lost the power of voiding it. Pressure on the abdomen will often rupture both the colon and body-wall. Bees crawling...will revive if warmed and fed, but the power of flight will not be regained." "Bees have recovered after treatment with numerous cures, but they are found to recover quite as often when left untreated. This disease is fluctuating in character, and we have thus perfectly honest testimony to the virtues of a long list of specifics from disinfectants like bacterol, yadil and dioxygen down to flowers of sulphur and aromatic chalk. Any treatment...whether by drugs or otherwise, that would prolong the life of susceptible stocks of bees would distinctly hinder regeneration of British bees." "Nature has succeeded where man has conspicuously failed...there is a large body of evidence that recovery is well advanced in the regions first attacked. The character of the disease...changed somewhat in recent years. When first noticed it was worse in summer, but now it was seen chiefly in the late autumn and spring. Isle of Wight disease used to kill bees in a week or two. We have here one more illustration of nature's way with an infectious disease. Bees differ in their power of resisting this disease...The susceptible bees tend to die out, but this only makes more room for...the more resistant." "We must replace susceptible bees by resistant bees. When buying fresh stock we must carefully avoid bees from the few secluded glens that the disease has not yet reached...We should rather buy bees from surviving stocks in districts already swept by the disease. Even without co-operation of the beekeeper, biological law will in due course relegate Isle of Wight disease to a position of little importance. But why should we stand by?" ============================================================================== Dr. Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Extension Apiculturist, University of Florida Bldg. 970, P.O. Box 110620, Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Ph. 352/392-1801 ext. 143 Fax 352/392-0190 E-mail: mts@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Publisher of the APIS newsletter: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis.htm To electronically subscribe, send the following to listserv@lists.ufl.edu: subscribe Apis-L First Name Last =============================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:26:08 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Murray: Thank you for a beautifully well written dissertation. I wish that I would have the wisdom, the fluidity of language and the ability to express your opinion on such an important subject as are Varroa mites and their significance to beekeeping in particular and to humanity in general as you have. Ignoring the menace presented by Varroa mites is tantamount to inviting disaster as you so well put it. I am so very glad that at least there is one more person in this world of ours who has a vision on the potential harm represented by Varroa. My deepest gratitude goes to you for your insight. Sincerely. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:35:16 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Tracheal mite history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Dr. Sanford: I read your article from top to bottom and back again. It is that good. I think that when we (ALL OF US) talk about bee mites, that it is imperative that we make the distinction between Tracheal Bee Mites and Varroa. I have had little experience with tracheal bee mites (apart from dissecting bees and looking for the presence of mites). I have seen obvious signs of mite infestation, the reason that led me to dissect some samples but I am sure that they could have missed them in many colonies that did not reveal signs of infestation and thus miss their presence all together. So far my experience with tracheal mites. Regarding Varroa: I have been studying Varroa mites for almost 14 years. During this time, I have seen one unique characteristic about Varroa mites. They KILL untreated colonies. In my humble opinion, developing resistant honey bees will probably be one of the greatest achievements in beekeeping if that is ever accomplished. Until 1 July 1996, I lost 90% of bee colonies that I owned to Varroa even though I was treating them with the accepted bee mite control of these days and six out of eleven that I bought subsequently. Since 1 July 1996, I soon lost 3 colonies left untreated (controls) while I treated 23 others with mineral oil. Some of the colonies treated with mineral oil succumbed due to reasons not entirely related to mite infection (too small, nosema, pilfering). At the end of on year of continuous mineral oil treatment, I discontinued treatment on three strong, seemingly healthy colonies. All three perished before the end of the summer, including a colony which I had owned for three years (I was hoping that it had developed resistance). In essence, I would give, (as the saying goes) an arm and a leg to find an untreated colony that survives beyond a year if infected with Varroa mites. Precisely because I support the idea that development of resistant strains of honey bees would be the ultimate achievement in this area. In conclusion, I considered necessary to share my experience and knowledge with Varroa mites because I feel that there is definite pathogenicity distinction between the two mites and that it needs to be stressed. While it might be possible that certain races of honey bees have developed "resistance" to tracheal mites, one can not say the same for Varroa mites with certainty. Hence, beekeepers who trust that their honey bees will develop resistance to Varroa mites ( without treatment) are setting themselves for disappointment and severe losses. Please remember that I am not in disagreement with you. I am merely stating my observations of nearly 14 years studying Varroa mites. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:58:44 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: [Fwd: mineral oil] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9BA85F4E127EF03A3056E00B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9BA85F4E127EF03A3056E00B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All: With permission from the author, I am posting a letter addressed to me about use of MO in his hives. I thought the letter is worthy of sharing with the list. Be your own judge. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA --------------9BA85F4E127EF03A3056E00B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from info.starpoint.net (starpoint.net [206.146.5.100]) by mailhost.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13071 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-27.starpoint.net (mira-27.starpoint.net [206.146.5.226] (may be forged)) by info.starpoint.net (8.8.7/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA15227 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:42:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3490512A.6A30@starpoint.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:46:34 -0800 From: Elroy Rogers X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Subject: mineral oil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I thought I'd send you an email to let you know the results I had with mineral oil. I used mineral oil as you suggested on bee chat, but I had a problem with it puddling resulted in a dead queen. I did see results with it though, apistan strips were in the hives but didn't seem to help much. After killing the queen I thought there must be an easier way to apply mineral oil without casualties. I tried mixing MO with water in a blender it didn't work, then tried adding sugar. I found that MO will suspend in 1/2 water and 1/2 sugar for just a minute or so, I didn't do any test on it to find out. I used a 1 gallon sprayer to apply the mixure of mineral and sugar water to the front of the hive. I found if you apply early in the morning just when the bees start to fly the bees come out and eat the mixture right away. I believe this is most likely feed directly to the brood which is where the mites will go to reproduce. I used this method all summer with very good results, I did have bees hatching out that were deformed most of the summer. In the fall every colony looked exeptionally heathy no more bees looking deformed. My colonies were inspected by the a minnesota bee inpector in october an ether roll resulted in 1 mite from 300 bees tested, samples taken from 10 colonies. This method does take a little longer to get results but it is much easier to apply. I thought I would share this with you so you could try it out, maybe we could get the large commercial beekeepers to try it. I belive mineral oil could do alot of damage to the mite if not wipe them out totally if every one used it. Elroy --------------9BA85F4E127EF03A3056E00B-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:35:09 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen In-Reply-To: <34906880.AC6CEC5B@norfolk.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <34906880.AC6CEC5B@norfolk.infi.net>, "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" writes >Dear Murray: >Thank you for a beautifully well written dissertation. I wish that I would >have the wisdom, the fluidity of language and the ability to express your >opinion on such an important subject as are Varroa mites and their >significance to beekeeping in particular and to humanity in general as you >have. Ignoring the menace presented by Varroa mites is tantamount to >inviting disaster as you so well put it. >I am so very glad that at least there is one more person in this world of >ours who >has a vision on the potential harm represented by Varroa. >My deepest gratitude goes to you for your insight. >Sincerely. >Dr. Rodriguez >Virginia Beach, VA Dear Dr. Rodriguez, I would like to thank both yourself and the host of direct respondents to my posting on mites, for the courtesy of all your replies. However, one or two points have up in various e-mails which I feel I must clarify. Firstly, the posting was not meant to be some kind of structured piece of work on mites and their treatments. It was, and remains, a loosely connected series of paragraphs dealing with some of the points raised in recent postings by various parties. Secondly, although it may have seemed so to some from what I wrote, I am NOT afraid of the varroa mite. I feel that with such a potentially destructive creature as this you should make every effort to know your enemy, and every single one of us should read all PROPER research on the subject and learn the true situation with all treatments, being careful not to jump to hasty conclusions, and being wary of theories put forward by narrow interest groups or individuals. Do your homework properly and then, either individually or communally, you CAN arrive at a valid and effective strategy for combatting varroa. There is no cure, but there are ways to live with it. Thank you all again for your kind replies -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:44:53 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Re: 6 dimensional bee dance the npr story was preceeded by an article in DISCOVER magazine's nov.1997 issue, which was a previous post on the list... the researcher, Barbara Shipman, at the univ. of rochester(ny), working on the geometry of 6-D flag manifold projections into 2-D hexagons recognized the pattern of the bee dances (both round and waggle) emerging, and proceeds to extrapolate a quantum mechanics/honeybee perception hypothesis that includes some speculation about quarks...the quirky thing is that her father was a bee researcher, she started college as a biochemistry major studying honeybee larval hemolymph, and then switched to mathematics...maybe we can lure her back to work on mite control? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:01:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Migratory Hi Folks, A friend of mine is about to take early retirement. He mentioned to me a few times that he would like to take bees south for the winter and see what it would be like to "follow the bloom", or to establish a permanent location in the South where he could produce some honey and also get colonies/queens started for moving north. I told him I would like to help if I could, but I don't know very much about honey flows outside of our location (Eastern PA). I told him I would post it to the list for some good suggestions. I relayed the unfortunate story of Mr. Ford and his vandalized hives last year. I know there are a number of things to consider and he will not jump into this blindly. He just thought it would be a way to capitalize on his equipment and the new free time he will have and may be have a little "fun". He would not be moving a large number of colonies, probably less than 20 to start. Any information or suggestions would be appreciated. If someone would rather contact me away from the list that would be OK, although this may provide some good information that could benefit others. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who contributes to, and makes this list possible. I wish I could thank each of you personally, as I feel that I know you as good friends. This list is a great resource. Have a safe and happy holiday season and prosperous new year. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:15:22 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Bee mites / beware the drug barrons Hi All I have enjoyed reading all the posts on bee mites and have thought about it a bit. Being a reasonably warm country, south africa has a problem with fleas. Many people use preparations containing I believe hormones which disrupt the breading cycle of the fleas resulting in the offspring being infertile - this means that you get an initial huge population of infertile bugs that mate with each other, and fertile bugs, all resulting in a waste of effort/chain terminating effect. (Examples of trade names are Ovitrol, Syflea, Frontline - all have web pages - discovered as was searhing for a picture of a flea to send to my girlfriend flii) This would be a great way of getting rid of mites in bees - one or two infected bees with infertile mites would start a chain reaction killing of millions of mites. In Australia I believe the CSIRO there was also researching and using at one stage a form of biological control for flies where female flies were irradiated, making them infertile and then dropped from planes over infested areas, resuuulting in males mating and wasting their time - birthcontrol/bugcontrol scenario. Now, both of these systems are fantastically successful and have little in the way of scary side effects (like those of for instance fluvalinate which is quite a good flea poison I believe). Unfortunately they are very effective and wipe out a pest, meaning that your trusty agricultural drug pusher cures you and you don't come back for the next shot. On the other hand, if it/he/she/they sell you something that is easy to use (like cocaine/fluvalinate/heroine/DDT) works fast and wears of just as fast then they have a good addict, scared to venture off and try something else - and spends lots of money on their product. One can be a physical adict or an economic/outlook addict. A good example of this is the cotton industry. For years treatment of bolworm uused organophosphate poisons. In Eurasia people will be having babies with four arms and half a head, or the other wayy arouund for the next two hndred years because of this mentality. On the other hand, a project to produce bolworm viruses in yeast, that can then be brewed in a pot by some peasand and sprayyed on their crops gets not funding - reason - it is not economicallyy adictive and generates no major cash incentive. So, my admiration goes out to Dr Rodriguez and his friends who have tested a system that offers an alternative to the wares pushed by an industry which is both good and evil, giving it a good jab in it's vital organ (ophosphate)'s. The more alternatives that cost next to nothing, the better for the health of the next generation. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:35:58 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stewart Beattie Subject: Natural Mite Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Following comments from Harry Goudie. He suggests it that letting nature take it,s toll on the area honeybees would eventually find the emergence of the varroia resistant bee. This is not a obviously a method to be adopted but *is it* possibly that naturally, without special beebreeding research, the resistant bee will emerge. The first attack wave of mites into an area will destroy all the wild colonies of bees. The beekeepers will treat their hives. Swarms infected with the mite will restock some of the wild colonies old homes The bees will be tried against the mite without treatment, most will perish but somewhere could a wild colony with a small amount of resistance survive. The time scale I fear is not in our life time. Should we now be looking in the feral stocks in countries that have had the mite for many years for the resistant bee? Does this make any sense. I am thinking of the allegory to the rabbit population that was cleared from countries with mixamatosais. Some rabbits have now developed resistance. Stewart Cumbria, UK. (an old Gable-Endie) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:42:14 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Walter T. Weller" Subject: Re: Natural Mite Resistance >Should we now be looking in the feral stocks in countries that have had the >mite for many years for the resistant bee? > >Does this make any sense? > > Stewart >Cumbria, UK. (an old Gable-Endie) > Yes, Stewart, it does make sense, and the U.S. Dept. of Agr.'s Bee Research Lab at Baton Rouge, Louisiana, has recently imported a hundred or so queens chosen from stocks of European honey-bees in eastern Siberia (around Vladivostok) which have been living with Varroa for over a century (since European Russians settled in that area}. The bees are still in quarantine on Grand Terre island off the Louisiana coast, and should clear quarantine early in 1998, be brought to the Baton Rouge lab, and be subjected to research programs to find out just how good they are. For more information, you might contact Dr. Tom Rinderer, director of the Baton Rouge lab. Incidentally, it appears that U.S. Varroa jacobsonii is descended from the Siberian strain of mites. The Brazilian V. jacobsonii, where our American Africanized bees got their start, is descended from a Japanese strain. These two races of V. jacobsonii are recognizably different genetically, and appear to differ markedly in virulence, the Japanese/Brazilian being the lesser of the two evils. So, reports that Africanized bees in Latin America are resistant to Varroa should be taken with a grain of salt. Until the Africans have lived with U.S. Varroa for a few years we won't know how tough they really are. And in that regard, their advance into Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California seems to have come pretty much to a stand-still for the past two years or so. Could this be due to the mites? There isn't much else reasonably to blame it on. Some say our local fire-ants may deserve credit, but they are imports from South America themselves, and our European bees have coexisted with them for forty years more or less. Others suggest that our North American intensive cultivation with its heavy pesticide usage is more than the Africans can handle, but again, our European bees have withstood that problem for many years. The climate along the "stall-out" line is not severe (approximately 30 degrees north latitude - equivalent to Cairo, Egypt). So what else is there? Who knows? And what, pray tell, is a "Gable-Endie"? Walter Weller Post Office Box 270 Wakefield, Louisiana 70784 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:25:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollinator Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Migratory Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-12 11:51:17 EST, BOGANSRJ@apci.com (Ron Bogansky) writes: << I told him I would post it to the list for some good suggestions. I relayed the unfortunate story of Mr. Ford and his vandalized hives last year. I know there are a number of things to consider and he will not jump into this blindly. He just thought it would be a way to capitalize on his equipment and the new free time he will have and may be have a little "fun". He would not be moving a large number of colonies, probably less than 20 to start. Any information or suggestions would be appreciated. If someone would rather contact me away from the list that would be OK, although this may provide some good information that could benefit others. >> Gary Ford (not to say anything bad about him) made some beginner-type mistakes, that would have been avoided, if he had worked more with established beekeepers. Of course that can backfire, if the established beekeepers tend to think they have proprietary secrets or exclusive claims on large areas, or are just generally SOB's. A newbie has to find out who is willing to encourage and aid them in their quest. Knowledge costs something to gain, whether it is in a land-grant university, a library, or the "University of the Seat of the Pants." The expense can be reduced, if one can gain the assistance of experienced helpers. Tip #1 (for newbies, re: Gary Ford and the vandals): If you are going to experience vandalism in a location, it's a 95% probability it will happen in the first year. So don't put a lot of bees in a risky spot, until the locals have had a chance to get used to the idea. We've tried to be of assistance to the migratories here. Some are loners who work pretty much by themselves. Others come by for visits now and then. And others buy syrup from us, get locations from us, use our shop facilities, and sell us honey, etc. We enjoy the folks who do bring bees in from the northeast. In my humble opinion, there is room for more; some local beekeepers would dispute that, such as one who tries to claim fifty miles of one of the rivers (probably over 50,000 acres of prime forage area) for his 250 hives. If your friend wants to try South Carolina, suggest to him to get in contact with me, as I'll be glad to share with him some of the info that helps get established in a new area, such as how to avoid conflict with established beekeepers, where bears and forest fires are worst, what forage plants to look for, where to find pallets, etc., etc., etc. We've always felt that other beekeepers are not so much in competition, as are natural allies. And the few places where there is competition, it usually is friendly, not cut-throat. There are exceptions. Tip #2 I probably should charge for the information that I am about to share. But the concept is available to anyone who notices it, so I guess I can't: There is a zone along the southeast US coast that I call the Zone of Golden Pollen. It runs in a band forty to sixty miles wide, parallel to the ocean. It starts somewhat inland, not including the near coastal area, which tend to be sandy pine forests, bays and salt marshes (lots of mosquito spraying, too). It runs from southern Virginia across the Carolinas and Georgia to the Gulf States. If you do not believe such a zone exists, take a map and mark down all the southeastern queen breeders. While there are a few outside the zone, most will either fall into it, or move their bees to it for spring queen rearing. And the many of the commercial migratories will winter in this zone. Note that Florida is not within this zone. Yet more migratories probably go to Florida that to this zone. In south Florida, you tend to think that it is forever summer, you'd expect bees to be ripping strong with such mild weather. But you can feed all kinds of syrup to the bees in January with little buildup; the pollen is just not there in sufficient quantity or quality. So the Florida guys get mild winters with the bees sustained, slow but steady spring build up and the CITRUS crop. The last is the clincher for many beekeepers. Other southeastern (Golden Pollen Zone) beekeepers get winters a little bit harsher, but explosive spring buildup, with the capability of raising a lot of bees/queens. So, if you are thinking of migrating, look over Florida, if you want citrus honey; look over this Zone of Golden Pollen, if you want more bees in the spring. That doesn't preclude Florida for raising bees and queens, and there are some real good breeders there, but generally I am not impressed with Florida queens, and I think they are a bit limited by the available pollen sources. And for those who want the benefits of migrating with little of the work, send down your nuc boxes with comb to us. We'll make nucs with your comb. You come get them in the spring, and you'll have some very reasonably priced nucs. By January 1, the traveling bees have gone south, and there will be empty or half loaded trucks running down, as beekeepers go to check on their bees, so you should be able to find cheap trucking for the nuc boxes. If I were a northeastern beekeeper with family or other committments that made migration impossible, this option would look quite attractive to me. Of course for a retiree, migration is a beautiful option. Soak up rays all winter, get an early spring with the bees, then go north and repeat spring all over again. Ahhhhh..... Traveling with a load of bees is not a good idea for the faint hearted (or angina afflicted), however. (By the way, we now have gasoline available locally at 94.9 for regular unleaded. That's another plus for South Carolina.) Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:52:46 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Natural Mite Resistance In-Reply-To: <19971212.214311.27350.1.feliciana@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <19971212.214311.27350.1.feliciana@juno.com>, "Walter T. Weller" writes >>Should we now be looking in the feral stocks in countries that have had >the >mite for many years for the resistant bee? >> >>Does this make any sense? >> >> Stewart >>Cumbria, UK. (an old Gable-Endie) >> >Yes, Stewart, it does make sense, and the U.S. Dept. of Agr.'s Bee >Research Lab at Baton Rouge, Louisiana, has recently imported a hundred >or so queens chosen from stocks of European honey-bees in eastern Siberia >(around Vladivostok) which have been living with Varroa for over a >century (since European Russians settled in that area}. The bees are >still in quarantine on Grand Terre island off the Louisiana coast, and >should clear quarantine early in 1998, be brought to the Baton Rouge lab, >and be subjected to research programs to find out just how good they are. > For more information, you might contact Dr. Tom Rinderer, director of >the Baton Rouge lab. > >Incidentally, it appears that U.S. Varroa jacobsonii is descended from >the Siberian strain of mites. The Brazilian V. jacobsonii, where our >American Africanized bees got their start, is descended from a Japanese >strain. These two races of V. jacobsonii are recognizably different >genetically, and appear to differ markedly in virulence, the >Japanese/Brazilian being the lesser of the two evils. So, reports that >Africanized bees in Latin America are resistant to Varroa should be taken >with a grain of salt. Until the Africans have lived with U.S. Varroa for >a few years we won't know how tough they really are. > >And in that regard, their advance into Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and >California seems to have come pretty much to a stand-still for the past >two years or so. Could this be due to the mites? There isn't much else >reasonably to blame it on. Some say our local fire-ants may deserve >credit, but they are imports from South America themselves, and our >European bees have coexisted with them for forty years more or less. >Others suggest that our North American intensive cultivation with its >heavy pesticide usage is more than the Africans can handle, but again, >our European bees have withstood that problem for many years. The >climate along the "stall-out" line is not severe (approximately 30 >degrees north latitude - equivalent to Cairo, Egypt). So what else is >there? Who knows? > >And what, pray tell, is a "Gable-Endie"? > >Walter Weller >Post Office Box 270 >Wakefield, Louisiana 70784 > Dear Walter, Thank you for an interesting and informative post. I was unaware of this experimentation going on with Siberian bees, but it would, at least superficially, seem an obvious place to look and see if any truly resistant or tolerant strains had developed. The only snags I can see are that we may not know how long these particular strains had been there, as the Russians are/were great hive movers over huge distances, and indeed thus brought varroa to Europe in the first place. It could therefore be that the presence of these bees in that area is the result of constant re-introductions from Western Russia. Doubtless this has been well researched already, but it would be interesting to know. If they have happily existed there for many years without treatment AND if varroa is endemic in the area, then there could be the genetic basics there to be built on. On the other hand it could be some other factor causing the tolerance, such as some biological agent, which could still be valuable, or perhaps climatic factors, which could not be exported. It is an interesting line of development and I look forward to reading about its progress. Regarding the 'stall-line' you mentioned in connection with the progress of Africanised bees, it seems interesting that you mention Cairo, Egypt. May that be because in Africa A.m.scutellata has never progressed up past Egypt/Sudan. For many years, probably tens of thousands or more, the African bee has existed in its native range. It has never gone up through the Egypt area, The Middle East, and on into Turkey and Europe, despite having a land bridge it could readily have crossed. I have heard argument that the Sahara stops it, but in Eastern Africa this area is traversed by fertile river valleys, the Rift valley, and coastal areas, all of which, given the immense time scales involved, represent highways along which this race could easily have migrated, IF they were able to. Thus, if they have been unable to get past 30 N in Africa, it may be that in North America you will find the same thing happening. Local climatic factors will obviously also have a bearing on just how far North they can get but in some areas they may already be near their maximum range, with or without mite predation. The climatic factor causing the bees not to progress in Africa may not be obvious to us and we may think it not severe, but WE are not an African bee, so it is difficult to tell. The 'stall line' in South America is just below Buenos Aires, which is only about 35 S, so this is in the same ball park. Seasonality could be part of the controlling factor, with fluctuating day lenght, with or without pronounced winter cold periods, being something they cannot withstand. Finally, unless Stewart gets back to you himself, a 'Gable Endie' is an old slang term for a native of Montrose, a town on the east coast of Scotland, where I believe Stewart used to live. A gable end, from which the term is derived, is the end wall of a traditionally built house. I have heard, although it may not be the true origin, that because the North sea is so cold, and the mean wind that blows off it, that all the houses in old Montrose were built with their gable ends towards the sea and the cold wind, so that it did not blow directly into their front doors and windows. If this is incorrect I dare say Stewart will put the matter straight! Any way, thank you for your input and I hope to read more from you in the future. -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:07:35 +0200 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marian Pintilie Organization: - Subject: About bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everybody , if anyone had any idea about how bee venom is going on the market or modalities how to comercialize it, or where (as i have a small quantity to sell) please contact me at e-mail : pimapis@rls.roknet.ro thanks@regards marian ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:49:12 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: About bee venom Comments: To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found in Belgium Ch. Demanteau Rue de Jupille 130 B- 4620 FLERON 10 units 120 Bfr. >>>=B1 Hfl. 6,- >>> =B1 US$ 3,- but, what you really can do with that stuff?? I don't know. I was thinking that it can pushback the egg-laying capacity of workers in queenless hive So it will be possible to add a new queen. But unfortunately, the first results of research in "the" Dutch bee-research centre " sign no" http://home.pi.net/~ambros/home.html greeting, jan Marian Pintilie wrote: > Hello everybody , > > if anyone had any idea about how bee venom is going > on the market or modalities how to comercialize it, > or where (as i have a small quantity to sell) -- Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | EMAIL:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:02:22 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Bee mites / beware the drug barrons In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In article , Garth writes >I have enjoyed reading all the posts on bee mites and have thought >about it a bit. > > >In Australia I believe the CSIRO there was also researching and using >at one stage a form of biological control for flies where female >flies were irradiated, making them infertile and then dropped from >planes over infested areas, resuuulting in males mating and wasting >their time - birthcontrol/bugcontrol scenario. > >Now, both of these systems are fantastically successful and have >little in the way of scary side effects (like those of for instance >fluvalinate which is quite a good flea poison I believe). >Unfortunately they are very effective and wipe out a pest, meaning >that your trusty agricultural drug pusher cures you and you don't >come back for the next shot. On the other hand, if it/he/she/they >sell you something that is easy to use (like >cocaine/fluvalinate/heroine/DDT) works fast and wears of just as fast >then they have a good addict, scared to venture off and try something >else - and spends lots of money on their product. One can be a >physical adict or an economic/outlook addict. > Dear Garth, Recently I attended an annual conference of Scottish beekeepers where I was due to be one of the speakers. As I was on last it gave me the rest of the day to listen to all the other talks. The main speaker of the day was employed by the UK Department of Agriculture as a varroa researcher and he was conducting experiments into the lifestyle of varroa. He appeared to have been selected because he was not a beekeeper and thus would produce results untainted by personal biases. He was the best, most informed, and matter of fact speaker I have ever heard on the subject. Included in his talk was a report on progress in varroa research in a number of areas, including methods of increasing sterility in the mites to reduce the number of mature females being produced. This research is apparently well under way at a number of European labs, but it is far too early to talk about any kind of results. Similar research must be taking place at US locations as well. So your idea of control by sterility has been taken up and is proceeding. I cannot help but be puzzled, however, by your comments about the side effects of fluvalinate. Please let me know just what these are, because I am not aware of serious side effects from this substance, certainly none which are in any way at all in proportion to the side effects of NOT using it. I can tolerate the build ups in wax, which have been scientifically demonstrated, and it appears that the real horror stories about brood death etc are either unproven anecdotal accounts or the result of gross misuse of the treatments. ( I know several beekeepers who have now lived with varroa for quite some years, using fluvalinate once or twice a year, and even they do not find breeding problems in combs unchanged since day 1) To cause you to group such a substance along with cocaine, heroin, and DDT (as you did) is a very strong statement about a commonly used treatment. Please elucidate. Some readers of Bee-L are plainly not as experienced as you and I, and can take such comments at face value and possibly act on them. We should be offering calm sensible guidance to these people, not scaring them. The financial and credibility penalties which would be suffered by any company offering seriously dangerous substances without giving full information on the product and its usage would nowadays be extreme, particularly in the USA. These companies have their own long term futures to consider so do you really consider they would throw it all away just to make a fast buck out of a bunch of beekeepers? I don't think so. Regards Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:59:55 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Bee mites / beware the drug barrons In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Murray says: >The financial and credibility penalties which would be suffered by any >company offering seriously dangerous substances without giving full >information on the product and its usage would nowadays be extreme, >particularly in the USA. These companies have their own long term >futures to consider so do you really consider they would throw it all >away just to make a fast buck out of a bunch of beekeepers? I don't >think so. Can I interest anyone who even half believes in the above in buying the Golden Gate Bridge? (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:16:06 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Bee mites / beware the drug barrons In-Reply-To: <199712131901.LAA24759@mail.thegrid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <199712131901.LAA24759@mail.thegrid.net>, Andy Nachbaur writes > >Can I interest anyone who even half believes in the above in buying the >Golden Gate Bridge? >(c)Permission is given to copy this document >in any form, or to print for any use. > >(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! Dear Andy, Thank you for your response. I'm glad that at last I've got someone to disagree with me. The universal tide of approving e-mails I have been receiving was, although flattering, not a healthy sign, active debate is! The only point I was getting at was really the unfair press that certain varroa treatments are getting, and to liken fluvalinate to any of the other substances Garth mentioned was way over the top. If it was remotely like them and the various warnings, instructions etc. which accompany all agrochemichals nowadays did not alert the user to this, and then any calamity happened despite the product being used as directed, the legal consequences and liability damages would be severe. I personally do not believe that the profit on sales to beekeepers is sufficient to be worth the risk of the multi-million dollar law suit (for that is what it would be) which would inevitably follow it being demonstrated that they had knowingly sold a dangerous treatment and concealed the fact, and then damage to individuals or their property occurring as a result. I have full product and public liability insurance for my products coming into the USA and it is a complicated and expensive matter, indeed, and, despite us having full worldwide cover, the USA part of that accounts for two thirds of our overall cost. If it was pesticides instead of foodstuffs I was selling I shudder to think what insurance would cost and the amount of good scientific research I would need to provide just to be allowed to sell my product even when fully, correctly described, and with exhaustive directions for use. Insurers scrutinise everything so that they know their risks. I agree with healthy scepticism, and the provision of good quality, independent, unbiased evidence is crucial in arriving at your own decision. I cannot agree with AUTOMATIC rejection of any evidence offered by the producer of the treatment: it is merely tainted, not neccessarily invalid, and thus the support or otherwise of independent research evidence is vital. I don't advocate any particular treatment, and, especially after the passing of the first wave, intend to use a mixed regime of scientifically proven treatments. I will not use any quack remedies and will not adopt non-treatment as a strategy, even in a single yard, as all I would do would be give my neighbours a serious re-infestation problem as my colonies collapse. Not a friendly thing to do to them! Finally, I don't think you were very fair to Dr. Rodriguez in the following paragraph:- >"Will I ain't no Democrat myself and many of the readers here may not >be the least bit interested in politics anyway and are as far as I know, etc" I feel he was just saying it was a free country and thus you are both free to say what you like. I certainly agree with you in one respect. Beekeepers are a very independently minded bunch and any idea that some program of treatment or registration or whatever could be imposed on everyone just won't work. Some will take up opposing points of view and will not comply for a variety of reasons ranging from genuine practical objections, through distrust of others motives, to just sheer cussedness. If I ever end up in that last category please arrange to have me shot! Kind regards, Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:45:23 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kuyckx Maurice Subject: Re: varroa pics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Max Westby > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: varroa pics > Date: 02-dec-97 11:58 > > beautifuL SEM at the Rothamsted bee research centre site.... > http://www.res.bbsrc.ac.uk/entnem/research/chdpage1.htm > > Cheers from sunny Sheffield (-4 Celsius today and falling) > > Max > > > (\ > ---------------------------------------------{|||8------------- > Dr Max Westby (/ > (Among other things a Sheffield Beekeeper) > Dept of Psychology > University of Sheffield, SHEFFIELD S10 2TP, England. > > South Yorkshire Beekeepers Association BBKA apiary reg: JQ34 > Phone (Home): +44 (0)114 236 1038 > Phone (Work): +44 (0)114 222 6508 (direct line/voicemail) > Fax: +44 (0)114 276 6515 > e-mail: m.westby@sheffield.ac.uk > Web Site: http://www.shef.ac.uk/psychology/westby/ > --------------------------------------------------------------- Sir I can't connect to your web Site and can't see the varroa pics. Is there something wrong? Please help, Greetings from Belgium .Sig.Maurice ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:55:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bob Billson Organization: my honeybees are more organized than me! :-) Subject: Re: Bee mites / beware the drug barrons In-Reply-To: <199712131901.LAA24759@mail.thegrid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Andy Nachbaur wrote: >>futures to consider so do you really consider they would throw it all >>away just to make a fast buck out of a bunch of beekeepers? I don't >>think so. You don't know some U.S. companies very well. They would sell their own parents to make a fast buck and not lose a bit of sleep over it. :-( >Can I interest anyone who even half believes in the above in buying the >Golden Gate Bridge? I'll throw in the Brooklyn Bridge and/or George Washington Bridge (both in New York City). bob -- Bob Billson, KC2WZ email: kc2wz@pobox.com first year beekeeper, 2 colonies kc2wz@webspan.net (\ MS-DOS, you can't live with it. You can live without it. /) {|||8- Linux: the cure for the Windows 95 virus. -8|||} (/ \) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:56:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: NOVEMBER HONEY MARKET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, This month I am trying something new for me and in place of making up my = own market report from the same information, which is called reporting. I hav= e scanned the USDA report in to a text file that I will post in this list a= nd in the news group. Some will call this a form of theft of GI property that has value, or is sold to the public. For sure it is a source of income to the government e= ven though it is "history" and not true market data for producers. I may be getting some mail from Ms AG Reno but I have been on the farm before and at my age it would be a welcome change and a chance to catch a few rays a= nd read the many books I can't afford. To all, may the spirits of the season bring for you all that you wish of = it. The OLd Drone USDA HONEY REPORT NO: 11 Agricultural Marketing Service DATE: DECEMBER 9, 1997 Fruit and Vegetable Division 2015 South Ist Street - RM 4 Yakima, WA 98903 PHONE: (509) 575-2494 HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF NOVEMBER, 1997 IN VOLUMES OF 10,000 POUNDS OR GREATER Prices paid to beekeepers for extracted, unprocessed honey in major producing states by packers, handlers & other large users, cents per pound, fob.. or delivered nearby, containers exchanged or returned, prompt delivery and payment unless otherwise stated. ARKANSAS - Soybean, extra light amber ' -70 cents - Soybean, light amber, 68 cents CALIFORNIA - Mixed Flowers, extra light amber, 60 - 63 cents - Mixed Flowers, light amber, 59 - 63 cents - Orange, white, 75 - 80 cents (higher price for small lot) -Sage, white, 72 - 80 cents (higher price for small lot) -Sage, extra light amber, 74 cents FLORIDA - Brazilian Pepper, amber (non-table), 65 cents - Gailberry, extra light amber, 81 cents (small lot) - Mixed Wildflowers, light amber, 75 cents (small lot) - Orange, extra light amber, 92 cents (small lot) - Sable Palmetto, light amber (non-table), 62 cents - Saw Palmetto, light amber, 78 cents (small lot) IDAHO - Alfalfa/Buckwheat, light amber, 61 cents - Clover, white, 75 cents - extra light amber, 75 cents - Mint, light amber, 63 cents - Mint amber, 61 cents - Mint, dark amber, 55 cents - Sage, light amber, 69 cents LOUISIANA - Chinese Tallow, amber (non-table), 65 cents MAINE - Blueberry Blossom, extra light amber, 90 cents (small lot) MICHIGAN - Blueberry Blossom, medium amber, 80 cents - Napweed, medium amber, 80 cents MINNESOTA - Clover, white, 70 - 74 cents --- amber, 60 cents MONTANA - Alfalfa, white, 74 cents - Clover, white, 71,.- 83 cents - Clover, extra light amber, 74 cents - Sage, extra light amber, 76 cents NEBRASKA - Clover, water white &- white, 70 cents NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS < Page 2 > December 9, 1997 N. DAKOTA - Clover, extra white &-water white, 70 - 75 cents - Clover, white, 64 - 76 cents - Clover, extra light amber, 80 cents (small lot) OHIO - Clover, light amber, 71 cents S. DAKOTA - Clover, water white, & white, 70 - 75 cents TEXAS - Chinese Tallow, amber (non-table), 50 cents UTAH - Alfalfa, extra light amber, 71 cents - - light amber, 68 cents - Mixed Wildflowers, white, 73 cents WASHINGTON Alfalfa, light amber, 61 cents Buckwheat, amber, 61 cents Clover, white, 73 - 75 cents - extra light amber, 65 cents Melter, dark amber, 53 cents Mint, light amber, 63 cents - amber, 59 cents Mint, dark amber, 55 cents Snowberry, white, 73 cents (small lot) WISCONSIN Clover, white, 78 - 80 cents Prices paid to Canadian beekeepers for unprocessed bulk honey by packers and importers in U.S.currency, f.o.b. shipping point, containers included unless otherwise stated. Duty and crossing charges extra. Cents per pound. Province &- floral source unknown, extra white, 75 cents Prices paid to importers for bulk honey, duty paid, containers included, cents per pound ex-dock or point of entry unless otherwise stated. EAST COAST ARGENTINA - Clover, extra white &- white, 70 - 74 cents - Unknown, white, 71 - 74 cents CALIFORNIA BEESWAX MARKET SITUATION --- NOVEMBER, 1997 (unbleached, raw beeswax, delivered to handlers's warehouse) Deliveries of wax have picked up in some areas as producers are holding onto their honey crop, hoping for higher prices, and instead are selling their wax because they need the money. Some producers continue to trade their wax for supplies such as foundation and feed for the winter. Other handlers have been purchasing very little wax because sales of, especiall= y colored sheets used for candies, have declined considerably. Purchases of wax candles by consumers have been decreasing the last few years and ther= e is also competition from cheaper products that have been imported. Prices in CalIfornia for light wax ranged from $1.60 - 2.00 with most handlers paying $1.60 - 1.80. Dark colored wax was being purchased at $1.50 - 1.65 per pound. 121397 (c)Information from USDA NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS *** USED WITHOUT PERMISSION *** (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! --- =FE QMPro 1.53 =FE Santa on the Web ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:13:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: NOVEMBER HONEY MARKET Andy: How can you possibly be accused of 'stealing' information paid for by all of us taxpayers for the benefit of all of us taxpayers. I am of course assuming that all good US beekeepers report their legitimate and illegitimate income... :-) Al, Retired U.S. Government Employee....no, not the IRS, but the people responsible for providing the US military with the means to convert the living to the dead and remove all traces of the buildings in which they worked and resided. ----------------------------------------------------------- awneedham@juno.com - Scituate,MA,USA The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:45:32 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: the bee drug barrons thread Hi All Thanks for the posts regarding this thread (especially to your Murray). As Murray pointed out, fluvalinate has been proven to have little known side effects, and carries with it a full set of product instructions. My point is: To make those procuct instructions, a lot of research was carried out. Many expensive personal carried tests out, injected the stuff into rats and all the other things that are done. Great lengths were taken to make sure that the product was only launched in countries after big disasters had hit, (advertising by example) and people make lots of money this way. So, when I lumped the chemical in with cocain. LSD, heroine, DDT and all those other nasties, all I had hoped to do was to show that it will oneday join these as another bad chemical. All the mentioned nasties act on the nervous system. All were once legal. All have been shown to be bad in some way, but not without doing some damage before they were banned, and more thereafter. Products which work, are not profitable. One wants to sell something that almost works. The model T ford worked very well. So well that people never needed another one as it never broke. So Ford decided to build in built in obscelescence. Cars broke after people had finished paying for them, so ford did not kill it's market. Likewise fluvalinate has built in obsolescence (sp?) it does not work very well, it will be banned probably just before it's patent wears out and a new treatment will be released, which has been developed using cash from the previous patent. And it will be banned just before that patent runs out? Anybody from an agrochemical company out there able to tell us how much their MD earns? How in the sixties certain very famous companies used to empty their experimental chemical vats into the St Lawrence river to save costs (from a previous employee who left in disgust when a friend had to go to hsopital for organaophosphate poisoning from swimming in the river) I think it is a dirty world, and all I wanted to show, was that, just like drug barons who sell a product that keeps it's customers to the death, in some ways certain pesticides are similar. (A rat lives four years, a human eighty - that means that we don't even know what the long term effect of 90% of this centuaries pesticide is as those people have not reached their life expectancy, and thier kids whose original gamets had the holes blown in them have fifty years to go before they find out whether the testing of fluvalinate was right - the MD will be dead by then so who cares?) Sorry, am a cynic - of to eat my breakfast/pesticides. Keep well Garth PS - I am not a green peacer. I believe that exposing myself to certain poisons is good (boosts enzyme levels to deal with them), and so on. Just don't like big businesses that play evil games to maximise profit. (We all would if we could though) --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:35:13 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Bee mites / beware the drug barrons In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In article , Bob Billson writes > >You don't know some U.S. companies very well. They would sell their own >parents to make a fast buck and not lose a bit of sleep over it. > > >I'll throw in the Brooklyn Bridge and/or George Washington Bridge (both in >New York City). Dear Bob, Thank you for your response to my posting, which was itself originally a response to Garth. I would refer you to the reply I have already posted to Andy Nachbaur. The last thing on my mind is that you should take the publicity put out by pharmaceutical companies purely at face value. History is littered with examples of unsafe, even dangerous, goods, not just pharmaceuticals, being foisted on an unsuspecting clientelle by unscrupulous companies. Against that many products have been miraculously beneficial. What I do say is that healthy scepticism is right and good, especially if the entity involved is seeking to make a profit out of you, but automatic rejection of the companies evidence is bad. We have to take into account the results of truly independent evaluations conducted under proper scientific principles before deciding that the drug companies are lying, for, in effect, that is what this string of debate is saying. I just cannot agree that all information presented by these companies is wrong or, worse still, deliberate lies. I question it, often seek clarification, look at independent research, and then decide for myself, as is the right of all of us to do. Seeing these companies only as the 'big bad wolf' who constantly lie whilst damaging us is not, in my opinion, correct. For our own benefit it is important that we take a balanced view. Thank you again for your reply -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:23:06 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Documentation of Inspections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I am a beginner beekeeper and next year is my first full year. I have put together the form shown below, to remind me of the essential tasks to bear in mind when I am examining each hive. I got these from the book entitled 'Guide to bees and Honey' by Ted Hooper It is very much a Mark 1 and I will update it in the light of experience or help from members of the list. Thanks for your help as always Yours sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail: cssl@iol.ie C:\BEES\BEES.FRM HIVE INSPECTION FORM Apiary: Hive No : Date: Weather: Wind speed & direction: ______________________________________________________________________________ 1. Has the colony sufficient room? YES/NO 2. Is the queen present and laying the expected number of eggs? YES/NO 3. Early in season. Is colony building as fast as the others? YES/NO Mid season. Are there any queen cells present in the colony? YES/NO 4. Are there any signs of diseases or abnormality? YES/NO 5. Has the colony sufficient stores to last until the next inspection? YES/NO ______________________________________________________________________________ Worker Queen Drone Egg hatched 3 3 3 Cell sealed 8 8 10 Emerge 21 16 24 Mature - 20 37 ______________________________________________________________________________ Remarks: Date for next inspection: Do at next inspection: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:02:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Re: NOVEMBER HONEY MARKET At 11:13 PM 12/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >Andy: >How can you possibly be accused of 'stealing' information paid for >by all of us taxpayers for the benefit of all of us taxpayers. I am of >course assuming that all good US beekeepers report their legitimate >and illegitimate income... :-) Hi Al, Of course you are right, I was just waxing elegantly, but I do think my chances of resting in peace on top of Granddad at Arlington have been eliminated because of my cynical public views of the present US government. I would add what one wise old beekeeper once told me after being the only one I did not insult during one of my bee convention "beekeeper to beekeeper" talks, " no beekeeper was born a cynic only his experience makes him that way". I think I made the switch when plastic flowers replaced the real thing at the local bone yard but I had hints for many years such as when on a trip to Florida I found most of the ideal bee yard sites piled 10 and 20 high with used pesticide containers. I was a "honey market reporter" for many years, without pay other then the return postage the government would pay. Early on it really bothered me that they would "censor" my reports. At the time in California we beekeeper were really suffering because our bees were being damaged late in the season from the use of pesticide dusts on late milo and corn crops the bees worked for pollen and they of course died during the inactive months that followed and we did not have any mites to blame it on then. I could not take it anymore, I complained and got no satisfaction as my reports were still censored of all reference to the negative effects of agricultural chemicals on the beekeeping environment. By chance I fell in with some educated people, two newspaper reporters who were starting up a new business as lobbyists at our state capitol. I traded them my poor skills as someone who worked in an odd ball agricultural industry that holds great fascination with the public and entertained their clients at small luncheons at the capitol which brought me in contact with those with political power and the chance to see a few changes made for beekeepers. One of these was the stopping of censoring of the Beekeeper Reports, of course in a few years beekeepers no longer got return postage paid for their reports, then beekeepers were no longer used as reporters, and then the state reports were eliminated and beekeepers were asked to pay for the National Honey Market News, $35 now.. I have asked repeatedly that these reports be made available electronically as all the rest of the commodity reports are and have received no satisfaction just the run around and the silent treatment. It is such a small thing to ask for, and something that could end up saving money for the government as you can bee sure if they are selling the reports for $35 it is costing them $100.00 and they can prove it. But the danger is always "rock the boat" and they will eliminate the reports all together because so few use them. Well when they were free that was not the case, and the cooperation was good and the reports were much more current and factual as today much of reports is make up from information supplied by desk jockey bee regulators who seldom leave the office and when they do its to make a run to the local coffee shop to collect intelligence on bee keeping conditions. ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank & Phronsie Humphrey Subject: Re: the bee drug barrons thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been following some of this thread and some people seem to think that beekeeping is a large market for the drug companies. It is not and we are lucky to have the ones that we do have. Even Terrimicin was developed for another purpose altogether. There are however some dedicated scientist who are also beekeepers trying to develop controls for pest which affect our bees. If you don't like these chemicals don't use them. I think you will be out of business quickly As for other chemicals used in agriculture, the problems arose from misuse rather than use mostly. When DDT was in wide use, people said "Its bad don't use It". The farmers begged for an alternative but none was forthcoming. When Agribusiness became the majority of farming acreage, they developed the safer chemicals for use on crops. We now have chemicals that can be sprayed on crops, do their job and break down within 12 to 24 hours. I am not a defender of the drug companies but someone is doing something right. Life expectancy before drugs and chemicals in the 1800s was 35 to 40. The latest figure I heard in 1997 was 73 for men and 82 for women. Frank & Phronsie Humphrey beekeepr@cdc.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:54:29 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: the bee drug barrons thread In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In article , Garth writes >Hi All > >Thanks for the posts regarding this thread (especially to your >Murray). > >As Murray pointed out, fluvalinate has been proven to have little >known side effects, and carries with it a full set of product >instructions. > >My point is: To make those procuct instructions, a lot of research >was carried out. Many expensive personal carried tests out, injected >the stuff into rats and all the other things that are done. Great >lengths were taken to make sure that the product was only launched in >countries after big disasters had hit, (advertising by example) and >people make lots of money this way. > >So, when I lumped the chemical in with cocain. LSD, heroine, DDT and >all those other nasties, all I had hoped to do was to show that it >will oneday join these as another bad chemical. All the mentioned >nasties act on the nervous system. All were once legal. All have been >shown to be bad in some way, but not without doing some damage before >they were banned, and more thereafter. > >Products which work, are not profitable. One wants to sell something >that almost works. The model T ford worked very well. So well that >people never needed another one as it never broke. So Ford decided to >build in built in obscelescence. Cars broke after people had finished >paying for them, so ford did not kill it's market. Likewise >fluvalinate has built in obsolescence (sp?) it does not work very >well, it will be banned probably just before it's patent wears out >and a new treatment will be released, which has been developed using >cash from the previous patent. And it will be banned just before that >patent runs out? Anybody from an agrochemical company out there able >to tell us how much their MD earns? How in the sixties certain very >famous companies used to empty their experimental chemical vats into >the St Lawrence river to save costs (from a previous employee who >left in disgust when a friend had to go to hsopital for >organaophosphate poisoning from swimming in the river) > >I think it is a dirty world, and all I wanted to show, was that, just >like drug barons who sell a product that keeps it's customers to the >death, in some ways certain pesticides are similar. (A rat lives four >years, a human eighty - that means that we don't even know what the >long term effect of 90% of this centuaries pesticide is as those >people have not reached their life expectancy, and thier kids whose >original gamets had the holes blown in them have fifty years to go >before they find out whether the testing of fluvalinate was right - >the MD will be dead by then so who cares?) > >Sorry, am a cynic - of to eat my breakfast/pesticides. > >Keep well > >Garth > >PS - I am not a green peacer. I believe that exposing myself to >certain poisons is good (boosts enzyme levels to deal with them), and >so on. Just don't like big businesses that play evil games to >maximise profit. (We all would if we could though) >--- >Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries >15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis >Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation >6139 >Eastern Cape >South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 > >On holiday for a few months Rhodes University >Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! >Interests: Fliis and bees >Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way >reflect those of Rhodes University. Dear Garth, I appreciate your cynicism and the grounds you cite for it. Suspicion is not necessarily a bad thing. However, fluvalinate is a pyrethroid, which, natural or synthetic, are amongst the most benign and least persistent insecticides known today. I am sure a better killer of varroa could be found, but it is unlikely that it would have so few side effects. (Correctly timed applications of fluvalinate kill somewhere in the 95 to 99 % of non resistant mites in a colony, so how much higher do you want that figure to go bearing in mind that something which will kill 100% of the mites probably kills the bees as well.) The obsolescence you mention is not really an avoidable option in this case because nature has it built in anyway. Pyrethroids, by their very nature, are relatively easily got round by the target species. Resistance develops quickly especially in places where the treatment is irresponsibly used, so the clock is already ticking for them as soon as they are first used. I have heard that the problem with resistant mite stems from some cost cutting, I think in Italy, where beekeepers were soaking plywood strips in fluvalinate then placing them in their hives. This uncontrolled usage gave rise to overdosing, which was damaging to bees, and underdosing, which was very helpful to the mite population as it selected for low levels of resistance which then bred up to higher levels more quickly than if correct doses had been used all along. I cannot remember for sure but I think I recall that a product called MAVRIK, with fluvalinate as its active ingredient was the one being used in this case, and it came as a liquid in a can and was extremely cheap. I understand and accept much of what you say, but, even if you cannot trust the pharmaceutical companies, there are a lot of good people out there and it is not quite as dirty a world as you say. Many good scientists have researched this subject. Trust some of them. Hope you enjoyed your breakfast and hope to hear from you again soon. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:52:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: Beekeepers Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BK (BEEKEEPING) ECONOMICS v1.2 A set of six disks to install a data base (FoxPro) program that is worth the effort for those who would like to learn about data base programs and at the same time experience a well built Beekeeping Simulation and an Extensive Beekeeping data base for all US states. The program runs very well on my Winds of 95 Pet 200mh w/32 megs of ram and is said to be as good on Windows 3.1 so it should be OK on OS2, and is coded for NT for those on the cutting edge. A Mac version also is available. The price is right, FREE to at least US Beekeepers and it must be requested as so far it is not available for d/l. For more info: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/ I sure don't want anyone to get the idea that I have soften my rhetoric on BS (bee research), but a effort well done deserves some praise and Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman has been working a long time to get this and other computers programs out and if you go to this site: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/soft/index.html You will find two interesting programs to try that can be D/Led right now as you wait for your BK-ECONOMICS to arrive in the mail. Another software product that I have found by use to be worth the price is EUDORA PRO Email ver 4.0, the cost is $39 US, information at: http://www.eudora.com/pro_email/ The more I use this program the more powerful I find its features. It allows you to catch your LIST MAIL or any mail in its own mail box and has good filtering to reduce the spam that we all hate. Also has a "auto responder" that I hope to learn to use so I can close down my UUCP account that I use for Wild Bee's BBS beekeeping faq's. This program is not being shipped yet but you can d/l the latest version for a 30 day test drive. Well I have much more to write but will have to save it for the next time but would like to add that God has been very good to me and all beekeepers in this area of California and we are into a early green season that holds more promises then any seen by the young generation of beekeepers now in the field. The price for honey may has slipped off its highs but the experience of producing a bumper crop is worth more at least to me then the price it sells for and just maybe California is in for one of those bin busters that are only faint memories in just a few of us old times left to dream of the old days when honey production was measured in case's per hive, each wooden case held two 60 lb cans and two case's per hive was a good average if you did not move to more then one honey flow. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for personal use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. 121497 --- =FE QMPro 1.53 =FE http://194.112.46.22/public/default.htm (Amigabee BBS= )