========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Greetings "Researchers have discovered that chocolate produces some of the same reactions in the brain as marijuana...The researchers also discovered other similarities between the two, but can't remember what they are." -Matt Lauer on NBC's Today show, August 22 Heres another alternative to calm the bees down while were working them Take Care and GBY,John in Homestead,also at ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Brock, Alfred L." Subject: Unsubscribe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Unsubscribe > -----Original Message----- > From: John M Thorp [SMTP:hallelujah.honey.co@juno.com] > Sent: Monday, December 29, 1997 12:00 AM > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Greetings > > "Researchers have discovered that chocolate produces some of > the > same > reactions in the brain as marijuana...The researchers also discovered > other similarities between the two, but can't remember what they > are." > -Matt Lauer on NBC's Today show, August 22 > > Heres > another alternative to calm the bees down while were working > them > Take Care and GBY,John in Homestead,also at ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walt Barricklow Subject: winter feeding, lost hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Winter was progressing nicely, and I was happy in my work. Some days 50 to 60 F sunny, mornings cool 40F just a nice time to get things done. Bees flying in the afternoon all hives looked good from the outside. I went into one hive to remove the aspitian strips that I put in it. I had checked all the hives for mites using a Varroa trap the I got from Brushy Bee. Only one hive showed mite infestation above the recommended per sq.in. of three. I treated with aspistan. The hive that had bees flying in and out it, is dead. I was seeing robber bees and didn't know. My inspection of the hive found that the queen was dead. I can find no disease, no strange odor. It was a first year hive, so the comb is clean. The few holes in the comb that had any thing in them were hard honey, like crystallized. There were wax worms that had already started to take over. I cleaned them all off. The hive still looks to be in good shape. I scorched the hive, and scrapped the frames clean, but left the comb in it. QUESTION: should I strip out the frames and put in new foundation? I have read the strings about possible diseased hives, and most say put in new. I have heard that a varroa mite can only live two weeks without a host, so could I use the hive come Spring with new bees and feel comfortable or should I scrape the frames and start new. Can a wax worm live through a scorching.? There are some indentations in the wood. I thought to store the hive with paramoth crystals, until Spring. I, only have nine hives now, and have been in bee keeping for three years. I thought that I was doing everything right, but I guess not. Im the only one around here that has bees left. Most have given up and moved on. I still think its fun, and learn from the bees. Any help that anyone can give to me, will be greatly appreciated. I don"t want to lose any more. Walt in South Carolina. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:16:40 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites In-Reply-To: <19971218215652717.AAB138@lizard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Regretfully the North American method of bee keeping is maintaining > susceptible bees. Whereas in the UK the bad were allowed to die, mainly > because in the first instances there was no treatment for T-mites, here > they are medicated and therefore perpetuate... As I have said > many times, T-mites are still a major problem, they are just masked by > medication for V-mites. Hmmm. I have wondered about this. No one has so far shown--to my knowledge--that Apistan has much if any effect on TM. I wonder why. I think the vast majority of V-mite treatment in Canada, as well as the USA, is Apistan(r). This accounts for all of North America AFAIK, so I don't quite follow the reasoning. > The average bee keeper thinks it's more cost effective to slap a grease > pattie on and forget it!!! As I said before perpetuating the problem. > " ...only two showed slight traces of mites. The other had > found a colony with around 100% infestation "tracheae absolutely black > with mites" and was treating with grease patties..." As I said > perpetuating the problem. Wouldn't a better solution be to re-queen with > the first guy's stock? Well, it is not clear from the original post that there are stocks from several suppliers here. As far as treating with grease patties is concerned, my understanding is that the patties are not a quick fix at all. They have to be on continuously--year round--to have much effect and that they do not *cure* TM problems, merely reduce them--after a time. FWIW, we used one round of oxytet treated patties this year from the early spring until they were consumed several months later, and have noticed *no reduction* in TM levels from last year. However we had no controls and so we do not know if the TM levels would have been higher (or lower) without the patties. What we do know--FWIW--is that we saw *no* AFB in 2,000 or so colonies this year and our oxytet bill--and labour to apply it--is about 1/3 of previous years. (We also fed oxytet in syrup the first several rounds). > > wintering bees this does not have much effect in a short winter. If > > you live in an area where the winters are long, hard and unbroken > > and breeding is delayed. the situation changes and you can well have > > the old bees dying off faster than the young are produced. Thus you > > have an apparently healthy colony in midwinter collapsing in March > > or April. In such a situation I would accept that autumn testing > > and treatment would be necessary. As mentioned earlier, fall is often too late to treat in Canada, since the winter bees are already damaged. > I think the best analogy would be to ask. How well do you perform > when your lungs are full of junk? I had double pnuemonia a couple of > years ago, almost killed me, what does the same thing do for your bees? Sounds reasonable, but is is a bit of a stretch as an analogy. More like inhaling a handful of bees I think :) Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:38:26 -0500 Reply-To: chestnic@mail.cvn.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ingrid Chesnick Organization: B&I Web Subject: reders digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anybody see January's readers digest look at humor in uniform the un beekeppers ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:05:19 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: winter feeding, lost hive In-Reply-To: <19971229150651972.AAA3327@DEFAULT.barnwellsc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <19971229150651972.AAA3327@DEFAULT.barnwellsc.com>, Walt Barricklow writes >Winter was progressing nicely, and I was happy in my work. Some days 50 to >60 F sunny, mornings >cool 40F just a nice time to get things done. Bees flying in the afternoon >all hives looked good from >the outside. I went into one hive to remove the aspitian strips that I put >in it. I had checked all the hives >for mites using a Varroa trap the I got from Brushy Bee. Only one hive >showed mite infestation above >the recommended per sq.in. of three. I treated with aspistan. The hive >that had bees flying in and out >it, is dead. I was seeing robber bees and didn't know. My inspection of >the hive found that the queen >was dead. I can find no disease, no strange odor. It was a first year hive, >so the comb is clean. The few >holes in the comb that had any thing in them were hard honey, like >crystallized. There were wax worms >that had already started to take over. I cleaned them all off. The hive >still looks to be in good shape. I >scorched the hive, and scrapped the frames clean, but left the comb in it. >QUESTION: should I strip out >the frames and put in new foundation? I have read the strings about >possible diseased hives, and most >say put in new. I have heard that a varroa mite can only live two weeks >without a host, so could I use the >hive come Spring with new bees and feel comfortable or should I scrape the >frames and start new. Can >a wax worm live through a scorching.? There are some indentations in the >wood. I thought to store the >hive with paramoth crystals, until Spring. I, only have nine hives now, and >have been in bee keeping >for three years. I thought that I was doing everything right, but I guess >not. Im the only one around here >that has bees left. Most have given up and moved on. I still think its >fun, and learn from the bees. >Any help that anyone can give to me, will be greatly appreciated. I don"t >want to lose any more. >Walt in South Carolina. Walt, Just sounds to me like the colony went down to winter queenless, probably due to either failure to properly raise a queen in summer or, less likely with the hive being dead by Christmas, her loss at some stage too late in the season to replace her. It happens, and I would not lose too much sleep over it: we probably get 30 or more of these each season because later in the year we just don't have time to check that everything is queenright for winter. Sometimes there are hatched emergency cells from late in the season, sometimes just a few attempted pup cells, often on or around the pollen arc. You probably have no disease at all responsible for this loss and as such it wouldn't be necessary to give the hive anything more than a cursory clean up and sterilise. Although this is likely to be the case from your description, if you can it would be best to show the box to a local old time beekeeper who I'm sure would be glad to give you a verdict. Subject to confirmation of what I say, just protect the combs from wax moths and fill it up with a fresh split next year. Kind regards and good luck. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:20:57 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Two Queen Hive Management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is an old topic. SEARCH BEE-L TWO QUEEN MANAGEMENT will return the first 100 hits, which can be retrieved if they interest you. Recommended reading: _The_Hive_and_the_Honey_Bee_ contains a little bit, but not much. _The_Sky_Scraper_Hive_ (author unknown, recommended on BEE-L) _Swarming:_It's_Control_and_Prevention_ by L.E. Snelgrove Personal Experience: Lots of work for huge harvests. Done right you will reap great benefits. It's easy to go wrong. The techniques maximize populations hence the desire for your bees to swarm. You'll end up with hives that are easily 15 feet high, lots of heavy above the head lifting and dangerous ladder antics. I personally feel that the extra work far outweighs the extra honey, but I will try Snelgrove's technique in '98 because you can split off one of the queenright bodies at any time in the process, so if the hives get too high you just split part of them. Two queen hives are not for the feint of heart, only work in certain areas - those with short but intense flows, are a LOT of extra work and I'd only recommend them for the learning experience where you'll probably learn that you'd rather not run a two queen hive. However, if someone gave me that advice before I tried it myself, I'd have tried it myself! Good luck, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:45:00 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Alden P. Marshall" Subject: Re: Acarine and Oil of Wintergreen Good advise I believe but how does one really know for sure there are no mites? I only have so much time to spend on a hive and I know that from sampling that the large majority are infested even though at allow level. I don't have the courage to assume because I didn't come across any during a sampling they don't exist. Or do I have the courage to assume that they have the tolerance to survive until a spring checkup. So you know what I did. Guess this is not much help to improving the tolerance line. The best I have been able to accomplish is a one time late fall treatment (second year). I do supplement this with selective drone frame culling which I assume is beneficial in raising a lot of drones that show a high ability, for whatever reason, to control mite levels. I happen to be a strong supporter of raising a lot of drones from colonies that show particular desirable traits. I know there is much more supersedure that occurs than what is usually acknowledged and to have lots of these fellows flying around can only be an asset. I have found that allowing colonies to raise lots of drones generally does better than those that are discouraged from doing so. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 Busybee9@Juno.com On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:09:47 -0600 "Excerpts from BEE-L" writes: >Reply-to: Discussion of Bee Biology >From: Al Needham > >>First I must say this again and again NO beekeeper should be treating >>for any kind of mites or any other pest or disease that does not have >>them. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:46:28 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: winter feeding, lost hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Walt: Happy holidays and my "condolence" on the loss of your bees. I am not being funny, I really feel sorry for those who are losing their bees. Sounds to me like you have bee mites even though you treated your colonies. What you describe is a typical scenario of bee mites infestation. Why did they die? There could be a combination of factors involved. It is obvious that the treatment was not effective for that particular colony. Please make a careful evaluation of your remaining colonies, including assistance from someone knowledgeable about bee mites and reassess your treatment program. Wax-moth grubs will not survive freezing. You can utilize your comb next year without fear of these years' grubs after freezing the combs. CAUTION: The name of the product to use for storage of combs is: MOTH ICE CRYSTALS (paradichlorobenzene). This product is manufactured by the same company that makes moth balls (not to be used for comb storage!) and is usually found side by side with moth balls at the stores that sell it. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:34:46 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: [Fwd: Tracheal Mites] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70537E5409EE64D205C39B49" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70537E5409EE64D205C39B49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a duplicate of a post I sent Allen. (I did not realize at the time that I was posting to internode while my intention was to post to Bee-L). Happy Holidays. --------------70537E5409EE64D205C39B49 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34A7F8A7.566E05D9@norfolk.infi.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:23:19 -0500 From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Organization: Independent non-profit research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: allend@internode.net Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites References: <199712180149_MC2-2C5F-ABA9@compuserve.com> <15161636224473@internode.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone. Happy holidays. I hope that flames don't start again. I sincerely apologize to those who may think that I am boring recipients on this list with my assertions about MO. I am convinced that my assertions will benefit beekeeping in the long run; hence, my motivation to continue posting on this subject. Before I go any further, I would like to add to the pneumonia analogy. The closest comparison of tracheal bee mite infestation of bees would be comparable to inhalation pneumonia if one were in the need of making comparisons. Regarding MO and tracheal mites. Since I started working with MO I have tested bees for the presence of T-mites continuously. I have never found any T-mites yet in any of the treated colonies. It might be that my colonies never had any, but that likelihood would seem slim based on national reports of T-mites infestation. I have been receiving world-wide reports from people using MO with varying degrees of success. One of the most interesting reports was one from Europe from a beekeeper who stated that he has never seen clearer trachea when he tested his bees for T-mites. I trust that person as a reliable source. Encouraging? I would say, YES. The mechanism of action of grease patties for the treatment of bee mites is identical to that of MO, except that MO being liquid is more accessible; hence more effective than solid type oil patties. As I have explained in my previous reports on MO, the principle is based on anatomic/physiologic needs of bee mites. I am positively sure that it works for both mites. The bad news: application is labor intensive. The good news: I will be testing two new forms of application next spring in an effort to make the process cost effective. Needless to say, mites are not going to go away easy. We need to pool our efforts together to fight them. My wish for the new year: Paraphrasing Allen: "Don't kill the messenger." Happy New Year to all. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA --------------70537E5409EE64D205C39B49-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:48:23 -0600 Reply-To: rcanaday@ionet.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Canaday Subject: Re: NEW BEE STAMP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Update, for those interested in the stamp... others please ignore. Just read in the Dec. 16, 1997 Postal Bulletin (U.S.) that the stamp will not be issued until October '98, and then in a pane of 20, self-adhesive (subject to change, of course...) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:16:23 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Abandoned hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As many of you know, no matter how long you have been a beekeeper, you will always be a student and a teacher/consultant. Today I was called in by a new land owner as a teacher, but quickly became a student. Being an avocado farmer, he is eager to learn about beekeeping and how bees may help his avocado orchard. A new property owner of 25 acres of avocados had inherited 5 single story hives protected from an occasional bear intruder by a narrow 6 foot high chain link fence. This narrow and high chain link fence created a chimney like effect for the bees as they would not fly though the mesh of the chain link fence, instead they would enter and exit from the open top. In addition, being too narrow, there was no room to stand behind the hives so we had to inpsect the 5 hives from a front entrance position (FIRST problem). Unfortunately, according to him, these hives have been left unattended for the whole of this year (SECOND problem). The hives did not appear to be in too bad a shape from an exterior point of view. 2 of the hives showed good bee activity, 2 portrayed signs of weakness and 1 had no activity. The one with activity had died out and was developing early waxmoth signs. The 4 remaining hives were honey bound. (THIRD Problem). Each had 2 Apistan strips which in all probability were put in early Jan of this year. (FOURTH Problem) When the farmer saw all the honey he naturally wanted to extract it but I cautioned him about taking honey with the presence of the Apistan strips. We removed the Apistan strips and disposed of according to instructions. IMO, I am now face with these scenarios to help this farmer: 1. Extract the honey, and slowly feed back to the bees. Reinsert the empty wet combs, giving the queen more space to lay. 2. Add another deep super and place the honey bound frames above the brood frames. It is a mild winter here in Santa Barbara and the Eucalyptus flow is in full force. 3. Do nothing and wait until early Feb when I can perhaps order some queens from Hawaii to make splits. The learning goes on. I am interested in getting some feedback from others on the list as to whatmy next step is. Thanks for the input. Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:14:24 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Naser Ali Altayeb Subject: Advice-bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gentels, I'm about to start beekeeping with 3-5 langstroth hives at the back garden, so please provide me with any advice that you think can help me make a good start. many thanks Naser Altayeb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:28:09 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Carlos Aparicio Subject: Re: Advice-bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 12:14 PM 30/12/1997 +0300, Naser Ali Altayeb wrote: >Hi Gentels, > I'm about to start beekeeping with 3-5 langstroth hives at the >back garden, so >please provide me with ... >Naser Altayeb > > I would begin with a judicious election of the race of bees according to place and its climate. Take into account the feral colonies, and the opinion of beekeepers very experimented in the zone with particular knowledge on climate and= environment. If that goes well, you will get bees resistant to diseases, and adapted to the place. Carlos Aparicio ********************************* * * * Carlos Aparicio * * Attorney at Law * * Associate Professor * * Facultad de Derecho * * Universidad de la Rep=FAblica * * Montevideo, 11200 * * Uruguay * * Phone (598-02) 401-4096 * * Fax (598-02) 575-2961 * * caparici@chasque.apc.org * * * ********************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:28:53 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Beginner advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Naser Ali Altayeb requests: "... any advice that you think can help me make a good start." First, let us know where in the world your back garden is located! Advice is affected to a great extent by your location. Next, make the acquaintance of a local beekeeper or better yet a local beekeeping association. BEE-L is a valuable tool, local sages are INvaluable! Finally, get and read a beginner's text such as _First_Lessons_in_Beekeeping_ (Dadant press). Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:39:52 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: My 1997 Bee story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The queen is flying During a inspection in a little nuc, a frame in my hands, just on that m= oment I see the queen, she flies away. (marked!!) According to my knowledge, I persevered in just that position for more th= an half an hour ... nothing happened. I gave up. 3 Months later, the manager of the Arboretum (my apiary), calls me: " You= 've got a swarm" 20 minutes later I'm looking at a 5 comb-nest, a few meters above the api= ary. Carefully, I remove the combs in frames, and find the marked queen. After I shared some honey from the swarm with manager of the Garden; he = said: "next time I'll find a swarm I won't call you!!, I'll wait for a really = build- out nest, so we can share again the most beautiful honey I've ever got" Good bee in 1998 wishing to you all, Jan T. -- =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0 Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | EMAIL:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:13:49 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Abandoned hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Cronshaw wants to know what to do with a honeybound hive. When(if) spring comes here in northern Vermont, we often have lots of honey in the upper story. If left above, it "gets in the way" of an expanding brood nest. Crowding follows. In the north here we "Reverse" our colonies at the beginning of the Dandelion flow. This is the first major flow of the year. Reversing(Switching the position of the top and bottom box) the hive places empty combs on top, giving the queen lots of laying room up where the heat is. It also puts all that honey left from winter down below. The bees dont like it below, so they remove it(crystals and all), and move it back up where they need it , cleaning out those honeybound frames. Couldn't tell you when to reverse in Santa Barbara, California. At the beginning of the bees big buildup I guess. Oh yeah, whar is cyberchiro? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:47:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PURE, NATURAL, ORGANIC It could be argued that Honey, all Honey is described by the above, but in a regulated market if you are selling a generic product like honey there are rules, regulations, and soon new taxes for those who for the most part been using negative advertising on their honey labels. Maybe they are getting what they deserve but what worries me more is the public is going to get a new government program that will do nothing to improve the honey they may want to consume and be no more then another official government licensed rip off. Negative advertising is when you put something on your label that would say to the public that it is different for others who do not have the same on their label. Honey is honey, "pure" honey, or "natural", or "organic" are used to show a difference between one honey over another, when their may be no difference that can be detected by the consumer as all honey it is hoped is pure, natural, and organic. Yes those who want to join the green market with their honey and label it as being different then other honey with the words "ORGANIC" will have a chance to prove their faith in big brother and add an additional tax expense to their business of $50. per bee "organic" bee yard and $500. per "organic" Honey House. It is interesting in many retail market's all this will extra expense not allow the seller to receive any extra charges as those who police the pricing do not recognize label changes as good reason to charge more. Some of the rules for "organic" honey seemed to have come from the bureaucratic asylum, especially those that require inspections of the so called "organic" pasture the organic beekeeper's bee's are working to make that organic honey and the idea that this could be done by our government at any cost is more orgasmic then organic. Like all good government regulation there are easy outs for those who have the gold, and if you have about $30,000.00 you can be made your own "organic" honey inspector and not have big brother blowing smoke up your noise, or for some like off shore organic providers they can get the job done for $40.00 per hour. Even the sugar fed by the organic beekeeper will have to be grown and processed the organic way. What a crock of bad smelling organic stuff this new regulation is and it will be law soon enough if a lot of someone's don't take the time and effort to read the fine print and soon as the comment period will be closed before you can read the entire rule. You can check it out in detail and download the whole mess searching the government sites using "nop" or start by going to this government urinal and work back from there. http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/rule/20513.htm>http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/ru= l e/20513.htm Just a little of what you will find: =3DA7205.13 Livestock feed. (iv) Bees from which organic honey and other products are harvested shall have access to forage organically produced in accordance with the requirements specified in 205.3 through 205.11 so as to comprise the predominant portion of their forage needs. (2) Non-agricultural products provided as vitamin or mineral supplements may be used to satisfy the health requirements of livestock under organic management, Provided, That a synthetic supplement is included on the list of synthetic substances permitted for use in livestock production provided for in =3DA7205.24. Of course antibiotics are not permitted, you will find mega bytes of reading, but if you look you will find a order blank for a hard copy if you are into it or you can download the whole thing. I hope those who are interested will get in this tread as I would like to hear from some defenders of this regulation who think that paying more taxes to the government will make their honey any better then anyone else, or think they will get more money for it at the super market. ttul, the OLd Drone (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. 123097 --- =FE QMPro 1.53 =FE ***NOTE*** You can print this picture..... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:14:36 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It only takes a few seconds for any producer to realize that the claim of "organic" honey is not achievable. Use foundation? DISQUALIFIED! Feed your bees? DISQUALIFIED! Got neighbors in your forage area? DISQUALIFIED! Treat your bees? DISQUALIFIED! About the only chance for the claim will go to them new fangled top bar hives if they're located in (Scottland) Harry's back yard! And Jack will challange that! As I see it, the rules and regs for the designation of "organic honey" are legislators' way of passing a law that reads "Use of the word 'ORGANIC' on honey labels is forbidden". What could be said in eleven words has been stated in megabytes! All is well in D.C.! Aaron Morris - thinking it's about time for new years and wishing a happy and presperous one to all! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:44:59 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: Organic Honey Let me start by saying I'm not a believer in organic produce, and would never spend the extra money to buy something labeled organic. I'm glad, however, to see the new U.S. regulations on products labeled "organic." Yes, the regulations are totally unrealistic. Virtually no honey in the U.S. will meet the criteria for organic, because of the extreme limits put on nectar sources, medications, and supplemental food. I also raise a few cows, and the regulations are equally as unrealistic for meat products. The people who buy produce labeled "organic," however, expect the food they buy to be produced with such extreme limits. It's what they are paying extra for. I'd be willing to bet that an awful lot of food which has previously labeled organic has not been produced in a manner which the organic crowd would find acceptable. I know a number of different local producers of different foods who simply slap the organic label on anything, and get a higher price. I have been unwilling to label my honey "organic" because I know that my management practices are incompatible with what the organic crowd expects. It seems to me that these new regulations will simply level the playing field, and stop a lot of food, honey included, from being labeled "organic" and commanding a much higher price, when it really hasn't been produced under the conditions that the purchasers expect. Sure, the purchasers of organic foods are being unrealistic in their expectations, but maybe these regulations will also force them to reevaluate their beliefs. IMHO Steve Phillips Perry, KS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:08:24 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: wax In-Reply-To: <34A1DCFE.C9459AF0@vci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Dec 97 at 22:11, Jonathan wrote: > ideas?? also i was wondering if anybody new how to lighten, dark > colored wax ?? I have just discovered that dark wax can be lightened by steam cleaning. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: winter feeding, lost hive In-Reply-To: <19971229150651972.AAA3327@DEFAULT.barnwellsc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 29 Dec 97 at 10:03, Walt Barricklow wrote: > was doing everything right, but I guess not. Im the only one around > here that has bees left. Most have given up and moved on. I still > think its fun, and learn from the bees. Any help that anyone can > give to me, will be greatly appreciated. I don"t want to lose any > more. Walt in South Carolina. There has been other replies to this, but I would like to add a point. On close examination of the frames you might find a number of broken old queen cells, where you could expect supercedure cells. If so you can guarantee that this was queen failure and of course the virgin failed to mate and lay. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:40:50 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bobstjohn Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: organic honey Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am reminded of the Salmon packers who were having trouble selling the salmon meat from those salmon whose meat is not naturally pink. They added a notice on the lable saying that their meat was gauranteed not to turn pink. This was considered misleading advertising and the notices were removed. I wonder how far out into the desert you would have to put your bees the ensure no "contaminants? " ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:41:49 -0800 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy, There is a good article on labeling of organic foods in the latest Consumer reports. It is fairly balanced. They only mention honey in passing. Here in Maine, when the standards came up, it became apparent that common sense would not be allowed in the honey standards. That seems to have prevailed on the national level. Those involved seemed to want to be purer than pure and that led to the unrealistic standards. The rest of us great unwashed figured with mites and all the other bee killers on the horizon, that organic honey making would be a short lived business. But, if you read the Consumer Reports article, they found pesticides on a good number of the "organic" foods. So you will probably get "organic" honey from the same kind of people who use pesticides on their "organic" crops. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Andy Nachbaur wrote: > PURE, NATURAL, ORGANIC > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:11:10 +0100 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Nachbaur wrote: > > PURE, NATURAL, ORGANIC > Andy, obviously all over the world you can find the same stupidness. Everybody knows, here are some beekeepers trying to find a gap in the honey market and call their honey "biological honey", "organic honey" and so on. They intend selling it for a much higher price in health-food shop. It's quite the same according to other agricultural products. They are breeding bees and select. They use foundations with wax from other beekeepers. They feed their bees with sugar. They use unnatural methods to fight deseases and mites. They possibly live beside a farmer who uses pesticides. They let their bees fly to crops in the neighbourhood not to flowers of a virgin wilderness. They heat the honey to make it runny. They sell their honey or combs in plastic container. It is not unpossible to find pure natural honey, but you cannot produce it in an industrial country like the USA or Germany. You have to go to a jungle, to Africa or India. You can try to produce a more natural (= less unnatural) honey, but this is a very hard work. If someone's honey is better than others it needs more than to give it a such a name. You have to provide proof of this by figures and facts. Dr. Reimund Schuberth beekeeper in Germany (Bavaria) breeding of Carniolan queens insemination-station ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:07:46 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: Re: wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit come on is this possible, steam cleaning wax??? David Eyre wrote: > On 24 Dec 97 at 22:11, Jonathan wrote: > > > ideas?? also i was wondering if anybody new how to lighten, dark > > colored wax ?? > > I have just discovered that dark wax can be lightened by steam > cleaning. > > ******************************************* > The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, > Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 > Phone/fax 705-326-7171 > David Eyre, Owner. > http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks > e-mail > ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:56:48 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollinator Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: wax Comments: To: gmc@vci.net Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-30 22:21:45 EST, gmc@vci.net (beeman) writes: << come on is this possible, steam cleaning wax??? >> You bet it is. I saw a really neat setup of Ed Doan's, I've always wanted to duplicate, as soon as I can get a steam Jenny working. It rendered the old comb from a couple boxes at a time, and it came out surprisingly light. He had taken a deep super, and made a hopper shapped bottom from aluminum flashing, with a stand designed around the hopper. The hole at the bottom let out the wax into a mold. Above the bottom was another opening with a steam hose attatched. He would set a couple boxes on top of this, with a 16 x 20 piece of plywood on top. It would be set just ajar enough to let a little steam escape. The steam removed all the wax from the frames, which dripped down. Propolis and other debris mostly remained on the frames, but were dry and/or brittle enough to be rubbed or scraped off easily. Quite an invention. Rendered old comb, bleached the wax, and got the equipment pretty much ready for reuse, all in one operation. Despite the bleaching, you can never make old comb renderings into cappings wax, though. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:05:44 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: WINTER FEEDING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, can you please elaborate on statement in quotes, I don't understand what you mean. Thanks. Doug Henry Lockport Manitoba Allen Dick wrote: > > > > " when honey mixed down to syrup > consistency" > Allen > --- > You can search the BEE-L archives by sending email to > LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying > SEARCH BEE-L "key phrase" > Substitute a key phrase for "key phrase" above. > and remember to use the double quotes to exclude > hits on the individual words in the phrase > --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:56:50 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Using honey bees to spread bio-control agents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Garth had written about using bees to spread beneficial agents. Here is = an example from Australia. I quote from the Australian Bee Journal of December, 1997. "Keith Turnbull Research Institute in Victoria (Australia) is conducting = biological control experiments on the weed, St. John's wort by releasing = a microscopic mite onto the weed. An experimental release of these mites= will take place at Mt. Alexander, near Harcourt (just out of Castlemaine= ) during the last week of November, and the release will be by way of usi= ng honey bees as the vectors. Four hives will be placed in the particula= r area and the mites introduced. The hives will be fitted with pollen = traps and the contents of the traps will be studied under the microscope = to determine the eventual success or otherwise of the exercise." I will let the list know of any further developments. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:20:54 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: jim jensen Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES! In-Reply-To: <14120230428587@systronix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Old Drone, OK, I'll bite. What are the REAL objections to an Organic Certified Honey.?? #1. You don't HAVE to do it if you don't want to. So if people don't want to provide it - they should get out of the discussion. Flaming the issue is no help. #2. There IS a need for it. Even on this list I see discussion on the different possibilities of contamination. Thru apistan, thru forage, thru HFCS especially! There are real humans who desire that their food is clean. I am one. #3. It is do-able. Organic farmers can provide clean forage. Allowing the bees to make their own foundation is possible. Treatment options exist. Perhaps what isn't possible is to continue taking everything from the bees without giving back. Factory production mentality doesn't work with organic approaches. The only thing I don't understand is the tax issue. Is it set up so that "organic" honey is taxed and the honey with contaminants and god knows what is not??? Jim Jensen Atlanta, GA bdnut@mindspring.com The BioDynamic Honeybee Symposium A Quarterly forum for discussion of important topics. From beekeepers to beekeepers. Contact me for copies. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:34:30 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: NY GREETINGS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me wish you all the best in 1998. Let all your dreams come true. We have an unusual soft winter at the time. Minus 3 dg C today and even = plus 6 dg C kast week.(27-32 dg F).If to compare with last year at the = time was apr. minus 25 dg C ( minus 13 dg F). HAPPY NEW YEAR ! LAIMINGU NAUJUJU METU ! SCHASTLIVOGO NOVOGO GODA ! SZCZESLIWEGO NOVEGO ROKU ! SCHASLIVAHA NOVAHA HODU ! BOLDOG UJ EVET! Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt Radioelectronics engineer, 52. 15 yrs beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:50:14 CST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Phil Wood Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971231112054.0073190c@pop.mindspring.com>; from "jim jensen" at Dec 31, 97 11:20 am > What are the REAL objections to an Organic Certified Honey.?? Let me try to be brief- Myself, I'd like to be able to tell people that I do take some care in producing my honey. I don't use Apistan, for example (at least not for now)- I'm using Mineral Oil. Given the area that my bees forage- I know that what surrounds me is only pastureland, but becuase I live on only 10 acres, I can't control what everyone in the forage area is doing. It's definitely *not* doable for me. I don't understand how using foundation affects the honey in any way. I don't heat or filter the honey. I just can't get any more organic than this, given where I live. It strikes me as a bit similar to telling anyone who uses irrigation that they can't certify their produce as organic because they can't assure that the water underground is entirely free of contaminants- yet nobody suggests that. Just my reaction to this. - I think there should be gradations of "organic" After all, we shouldn't be designing agricultural policy to drive out the small producer. Phil Wood wood@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu > > #1. You don't HAVE to do it if you don't want to. So if people don't want > to provide it - they should get out of the discussion. Flaming the issue > is no help. > > #2. There IS a need for it. Even on this list I see discussion on the > different possibilities of contamination. Thru apistan, thru forage, thru > HFCS especially! There are real humans who desire that their food is > clean. I am one. > > #3. It is do-able. Organic farmers can provide clean forage. Allowing the > bees to make their own foundation is possible. Treatment options exist. > Perhaps what isn't possible is to continue taking everything from the bees > without giving back. Factory production mentality doesn't work with > organic approaches. > > The only thing I don't understand is the tax issue. Is it set up so that > "organic" honey is taxed and the honey with contaminants and god knows what > is not??? > > Jim Jensen Atlanta, GA bdnut@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:19:25 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Naser Ali Altayeb Subject: greetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To B-L friends, Happy New Year To All Of You , And May The Mighty GOD Make It A Year Of Peace And Proseperity To The Whole World. Naser Altayeb Kuwait ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:04:20 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Phil Wood wrote: > I can't control what everyone in the forage area is doing. It's > definitely *not* doable for me. > > I don't understand how using foundation affects the honey in any way. > I don't heat or filter the honey. > I just can't get any more organic than this, given where I live. > > Just my reaction to this. - I think there should be gradations of > "organic" After all, we shouldn't be designing agricultural policy to > drive out the small producer. That's the absurdity of it! You "can't get any more organic than this, given where live" but based on the proposed legislation you will not be able to label your honey organic. The foundation issue is due to the contamination of beeswax by fluvalinate. It's argualbe whether that would lead to contaminated honey, but that's moot as far as the proposed legislation is concerned. The problem with the proposed legislation is that it sets the bar so high no one will be able to jump over it. Gradations of organic? Like 75% organic? Is that like "kind of pregnant"? I think Andy's original point was that the rules are so stringent that NO honey will be able to be called organic. And if other honey producers feel so they had better speak up to their legislators quickly before the proposed legislation becomes law. But relax folks. For those who feel they produce "almost organic" honey there's still the designation of "raw". ;) Happy New Year! Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:31:34 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971231112054.0073190c@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:20 AM 12/31/97 -0500, jim jensen wrote: Hi Jim, >What are the REAL objections to an Organic Certified Honey.?? The difference between certified Organic Honey and not certified can not be measured other then the cost to certify it and the wording of the label. I have a smaller irrational but real fear that if this kind of regulation and taxing were made law in a short time all beekeepers would be paying the same tax to level the playing field for those who want Federal Organic Honey Laws as if it is that easy for some to pay then why not have them all pay. A national tax by way of new fees on bees to support Honey House Standardization has been in the wind for decades. >#1. You don't HAVE to do it if you don't want to. So if people don't want >to provide it - they should get out of the discussion. Flaming the issue >is no help. "FLAMING is in the eye of the reader and should not be used to dismiss honest discussion or even good old argument as knowing the difference is the real value of social intercourse." said Harem Scarem *1997 or was it Honest Abe Linchpin the used car dealer for NJ? >#2. There IS a need for it. Even on this list I see discussion on the >different possibilities of contamination. Thru apistan, thru forage, thru >HFCS especially! There are real humans who desire that their food is >clean. I am one. Nothing wrong with this, and the protection of the state and the good judgement of the beekeepers is with you, keeping all honey free of contamination right now and if there is need for improvement it should be done in the existing framework of laws, rules, and regulations and not with separate and new laws and taxes. >#3. It is do-able. Organic farmers can provide clean forage. Allowing the >bees to make their own foundation is possible. Treatment options exist. >Perhaps what isn't possible is to continue taking everything from the bees >without giving back. Factory production mentality doesn't work with >organic approaches. I can assure you that for most there is NO WAY that you can produce 100% clean honey no matter what you pay in additional taxes or what mountain top you keep your bees on. Bee hive products, including honey are representative of the total environment and not just some micro area the bees are reared in, so if there is a problem in the environment it will show up in the bee hive and its products if you want to look at small enough particles of the products, such as parts per billion, trillion.. NO one know if these small amounts of contamination is bad or just natural in organic foods. As far as your advice on keeping bees and leaving more honey on, as far as I know most do that now, but I can tell you that if you did nothing other then leaving all the honey the bees produced on them, and had no other problems, pests, or you name it, those hives would be just as dead in three years time or less, at least in the areas I have kept bees in the US.. Honey bees in most areas of the world that they are not native require keepers to survive, when beekeepers are all gone there will be few if any honey bees in the US. The so called feral populations in the US that got so much press the last year are no more then the reflections of the kept hive bee populations and without the hive bee population goodbye feral populations if this has anything to do with Organic Honey, I am not sure. >The only thing I don't understand is the tax issue. Is it set up so that >"organic" honey is taxed and the honey with contaminants and god knows what >is not??? My God knows that the vast majority of honey produced by beekeepers around the world is pure, natural, and organic; produced with the personal pride of beekeepers that keeps it from being contaminated other then what is natural and organic and it is no better nor worse that what one would find if his honey was delivered from the wild bee tree in the same area, and that bee tree honey is about as pure, natural and organic as it gets. Anytime the government of the US gets involved in its own brand of legalized consumer fraud the cost of doing business goes up. Just look at the spring waters in Hot Springs, Arkansas, 100% US Government regulated for an example how far they will go in ripping off the public by law. I am sure there are defenders of the natural spring waters but that does not make it right. ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:03:02 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I have a smaller irrational but real fear that if this kind of regulation > and taxing were made law in a short time all beekeepers would be paying > the same tax to level the playing field for those who want Federal > Organic Honey Laws as if it is that easy for some to pay then why not > have them all pay. A national tax by way of new fees on bees to support > Honey House Standardization has been in the wind for decades. If this keeps you up nights, think about this: The coming of HACCP regulations are going to be a real problem. I don't know what they will eventually turn out to be, but at the outset there were some who proposed that all the honey from *each yard* (each hive?) be kept separate and form a *separate batch* and that the extracting line and tanks should be washed between such batches. It was pointed out by beekeepers that this would increase the cost of doing business astronomically without adding any detectable amount of safety or security to the food supply. Moreover, in Canada we are already happily consuming honey from countries that do not share our regulations regarding such things as DDT in the environment and where basic food handling and hygiene rules -- if any -- are very different. They can sell cheaper and do. Since there have not been shown to be problems with the current practices and the new regs would make us even more uncompetitive, we have spoken our piece and are now at the point where we are sitting waiting apprehensively to see what edicts will come from our masters in the growing (inter)governmental empires. Regulation is an industry and the product is red tape. A friend who deals with European firms says that standardization there has tied the hands of firms so badly that they are unable to respond to requests for changes in specifications required to improve -- or even change packaging on -- products, and that as a direct result, they have had to drop good suppliers that have been with them for years. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:05:45 +0100 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil, I'm sharing most of your points of view. You hardly can do more to produce a clean, unpoisoned honey. > I don't understand how using foundation affects the honey in any way. Indeed foundation affects the honey. It is a fact, that producers of wax-foundations import wax from abroad (especially from different countries in Africa) They use this clean wax to dilute for example the European wax with its different ingredients, mostly the organic varroa fighting drugs. Using this clean wax they can produce a cleaner wax which they can sell at a better prize. Scientists have found out, that at a high contamination of wax, there is a diffusion of those chemicals into the honey. Some beekeepers say (I don't know whether this is true) that we are sitting on a ticking time bomb. We are not living alone on this planet earth. Even if we are not using these chemicals we get them from outside. But let me give you a piece of advice. This may be a point you can change,if you want to produce a better "organic honey". Make your own foundations from your own clean wax! But you have to know whether this pays off. Yours sincerely Reimund Dr. Reimund Schuberth beekeeper in Germany (Bavaria) breeding of Carniolan queens insemination drs@kulmbach.baynet.de ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Organic Honey - Unattainable Goal? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Because we specialize in the use of bees as monitors of contaminants in their surroundings, I decided that I had to make a comment. I realize that many will not like my comments. First, let me stress that we have not found any evidence that chemicals end up in the honey at levels that jeopardize human health. In fact, among the components of the hive, the honey is often the cleanest product. We see more evidence of gross contamination of honey as a result of careless handling than from environmental sources. Overall, Andy Nachbaur hit the nail on the head: I can assure you that for most there is NO WAY that you can produce 100% clean honey no matter what you pay in additional taxes or what mountain top you keep your bees on. Bee hive products, including honey are representative of the total environment and not just some micro area the bees are reared in, so if there is a problem in the environment it will show up in the bee hive and its products if you want to look at small enough particles of the products, such as parts per billion, trillion.. NO one know if these small amounts of contamination is bad or just natural in organic foods. As did Dr. Schuber: Scientists have found out, that at a high contamination of wax, there is a diffusion of those chemicals into the honey. From our perspective: One can take steps to reduce the exposure to chemicals, but you can't stop entry into the hive if there is a problem. And you don't have to spray or have a neighbor who does. We find traces of DDT and its breakdown products everywhere, even in bees from remote parts of Montana. We have never found a bee that didn't have a trace of PCBs in its tissues. Some pollutants are global in distribution. Also, years ago, we found that many organic farmers in the west had bought cheap land (often old industrial sites). Guess where we found the highest levels of environmental contaminants - in the soils and air of the organic region? The farmers didn't use chemicals, but their predecessors had, and some of their neighboring industries were still operating. In Maryland, we have found over 200 volatile and semi-volatile chemicals in the air inside a beehive. Some of these are natural and come from the wood of the hive, some are produced by the metabolics of the bees, some are from the products in the hive, and some are environmental contaminants. All of our Maryland hives contain trace (parts per billion) amounts of industrial solvents such as PCE (more commonly known as dry cleaning fluid) (and no, none of these colonies are near a dry cleaner's). All of our hives in Maryland and Montana have traces of napthalene (you get it from burning petroleum fuels). But our Montana hives don't have PCEs in them. Just how sensitive are bee colonies? A couple of examples surprised even us. Because of our cold winters, we do not have wax moth problems in Montana. Leave the equipment outside and your wax moth is gone by spring. So we never use PDB. We transported bees in 1996 from Montana to Maryland. Within a few days, we found PDB in the hives at our rural Maryland reference site. The local beekeeper had fumigated his hives in January. We picked up the PDB months later. We also got a spike of HMF in our hives in late summer. We didn't feed, but colonies about 2 blocks away were fed by the beekeeper. He must have gotten a bad batch. He feed using in-hive feeders and did not have any sick or dead out colonies. Yet, our colonies picked up the HMF contaminant from the feeder syrup and we found it in the air inside the beehives. Last year, we published a paper in the Journal of Environmental Quality tracing the emissions from Phosphate Fertilizer plants over more than 80 miles. And in 1985, we published maps of arsenic and cadmium distribution in the Tacoma, Seattle, Whidbey Island area of Puget Sound in the state of Washington. Again, the transport of contaminants extended over entire landscapes. Some years ago, a study in Connecticut found traces of several different pesticides in every bee sample taken from 22 colonies, and all but a few also had PCBs (and their instruments lacked the detection levels that we can now accomplish). Having said all of this, I still agree with Andy. We really don't know know whether traces of many of these chemicals have any real meaning in terms of risks to the bees or to human health. We also know that honey generally is as clean or cleaner than other produce (e.g., vegetables) growing in the same areas (whether organic or not). I can't say the same for the bees themselves, pollen, wax, or propolis. It should not be any surprise that the forage bee picks up contaminants. Wax acts as a sink and can hold on the chemicals for years, maybe even decades. We suspect the same is true for propolis. Pollen is particularly susceptible to contamination from dust blowing around. And, the air inside the hive reflects everything in or on the bees and anything that they bring into the hives. The best anyone can do is to try to reduce the chemical exposure. But unless you want to engage in some expensive chemical analyses, you will never know what your bees are picking up in minute quantities from unknown sources. Organic Honey is an impossible goal if you mean honey or any bee product that is totally free from human produced chemicals. More organic than someone else who uses chemicals (i.e., pesticides, antibiotics), maybe. It all depends on the past history of the area (e.g., old orchards in most of the more industrialized countries used arsenic and lead based insecticides before WW II - and we still see this legacy in our samples), wind patterns, neighbors, nearby industries, and MOST IMPORTANTLY how you handle your own products. Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:28:22 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Naser Ali Altayeb Subject: waxcells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi B-L, I wonder if the wax cells of the honey comb is edible? and If so in what quantities? and how often it can be eaten? Happy new year....and happy bee.... Naser Altayeb Kuwait ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:42:07 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Using honey bees to spread bio-control agents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lets all hope and pray that the mites do not end becoming parasitic to the bees too. That's all we need in addition to Varroa. Happy New Year to all Best regards. Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:59:42 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: greetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen.!!!!!!!! Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:44:18 +0100 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: waxcells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As far as I've heard and read, there never was a problem eating honey combs, if you do that in a reasonable way. The famous German medieval medical doctor Paracelsus said in former times: "the dosis of a substance makes it to be a poison". That is true till now. I think you hardly will eat such a great amount of bee-wax, that it will become dangerous. Bee-wax is used in medical drugs for example or in food production. It passes through the human body without causing any harm. Happy new year also to you and your family Yours sincerely Dr. Reimund Schuberth beekeeper in Germany(Bavaria) Naser Ali Altayeb wrote: > > Hi B-L, > I wonder if the wax cells of the honey comb is edible? and If so > in what quantities? and how often it can be eaten? Happy new year....and > happy bee.... > Naser Altayeb > Kuwait ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:58:28 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I have a smaller irrational but real fear that if this kind of regulation > and taxing were made law in a short time all beekeepers would be paying > the same tax to level the playing field for those who want Federal > Organic Honey Laws as if it is that easy for some to pay then why not > have them all pay. A national tax by way of new fees on bees to support > Honey House Standardization has been in the wind for decades. If this keeps you up nights, think about this: The coming of HACCP regulations are going to be a real problem. I don't know what they will eventually turn out to be, but at the outset there were some who proposed that all the honey from *each yard* (each hive?) be kept separate and form a *separate batch* and that the extracting line and tanks should be washed between such batches. It was pointed out by beekeepers that this would increase the cost of doing business astronomically without adding any detectable amount of safety or security to the food supply. Moreover, in Canada we are already happily consuming honey from countries that do not share our regulations regarding such things as DDT in the environment and where basic food handling and hygiene rules -- if any -- are very different. They can sell cheaper and do. Since there have not been shown to be problems with the current practices and the new regs would make us even more uncompetitive, we have spoken our piece and are now at the point where we are sitting waiting apprehensively to see what edicts will come from our masters in the growing (inter)governmental empires. Regulation is an industry and the product is red tape. A friend who deals with European firms says that standardization there has tied the hands of firms so badly that they are unable to respond to requests for changes in specifications required to improve -- or even change packaging on -- products, and that as a direct result, they have had to drop good suppliers that have been with them for years. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:05:28 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: Using honey bees to spread bio-control agents In-Reply-To: <34AAAE1F.59BC8EDA@norfolk.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, \Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: > Lets all hope and pray that the mites do not end becoming parasitic to > the bees too. That's all we need in addition to Varroa. Rest easy. There is virtually no chance that a phytophagous (plant- feeding) mite would become obligately parasitic on an animal, such as a honey bee, even in the absence of the mite's host plant. ************************************************************************* Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814, U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 FAX: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) "Bugs are not going to inherit the earth. They own it now. So we might as well make peace with the landlord."--T. Eisner (1989) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:22:09 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Using honey bees to spread bio-control agents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Tom: Has this mite DEFINITELY been proven to die if confined in an environment in which there aren't any living plants? I for one, has seen far too many failures of biologic controls. Remember the experiment which attempted to control rabbits with a virus? That's only one example, but it should suffice to make my point. In the Spanish language, (which I know better than English) we have a saying to this effect: "A button is enough for a sample." Happy new Year to All. Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES! Andy et al: As we all "should know", a poltician's (bureaucrat's) primary goal is to keep himself / herself in office (or in the bureaucratic position). Any benefit that comes to the general public is solely an accidental byproduct of that person's activity. Having spent most of my life as a "bureaucrat", I can assure you that the system is definitely not designed with accountability to the taxpayer and/or awards/incentives to be cost-efficient. On the contrary, the awards/incentives go to those who solidify/expand their empire of employees and sweep of power. My general theory on voting is - if they are in office, throw them out. I figure it will take the newly installed official a bit of time to learn how to defraud all of us to the extent that his/her predecessor had been doing. So, for a short bit, we will be saving ourselves some $$$. You are correct Andy, in the view that every time the politician gets involved in regulating a consumer product, you can bet your bippy the cost of that product will go up! Market forces, on the other hand, are very efficient if left to their own devices. On that cheery note ... Happy New Year to all of us taxpayers! Al, ----------------------------------------------------------- <"Mailto: awneedham@juno.com" > Scituate,Massachusetts,USA The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:25:20 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I have a smaller irrational but real fear that if this kind of > regulation and taxing were made law in a short time all beekeepers would > be paying the same tax to level the playing field for those who want > Federal Organic Honey Laws as if it is that easy for some to pay then > why not have them all pay. A national tax by way of new fees on bees to > support Honey House Standardization has been in the wind for decades. If this keeps you up nights, think about this: The coming of HACCP regulations are going to be a real problem. I don't know what they will eventually turn out to be, but at the outset there were some who proposed that all the honey from *each yard* (each hive?) be kept separate and form a *separate batch* and that the extracting line and tanks should be washed between such batches. It was pointed out by beekeepers that this would increase the cost of doing business astronomically without adding any detectable amount of safety or security to the food supply. Moreover, in Canada we are already happily consuming honey from countries that do not share our regulations regarding such things as DDT in the environment and where basic food handling and hygiene rules -- if any -- are very different. They can sell cheaper and do. Since there have not been shown to be problems with the current practices and the new regs would make us even more uncompetitive, we have spoken our piece and are now at the point where we are sitting waiting apprehensively to see what edicts will come from our masters in the growing (inter)governmental empires. Regulation is an industry and the product is red tape. A friend who deals with European firms says that standardization there has tied the hands of firms so badly that they are unable to respond to requests for changes in specifications required to improve -- or even change packaging on -- products, and that as a direct result, they have had to drop good suppliers that have been with them for years. Allen For some reason I have had this message returned to me several times over the day without it being posted. Curious. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:20:33 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Organic Honey ???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is the real objection to Organic honey? It's a lie Jim Jensen. We aren't supposed to lie to our customers, are we? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:00:32 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: WINTER FEEDING In-Reply-To: <199712260638.JAA29166@ns1.sminter.com.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:48 AM 12/26/97 -0600, you wrote: >I appreciate your effort to convince me about the advantages of HFCS over >sugar syrup, but if you read my first post about this matter you could have >noticed that I also think HFCS is cheaper and better at least given the >market conditions of sweeteners in the USA. Hi Martin, Sorry if I missed the meat of the tread, too many posts and two little time or it did not reach me. In any case I am not trying to sell anybody anything, but at times I must admit it may read like I was. For sure what works best for you is what you should use. Much sucrose syrup was still used here for the can of syrup in package bee's the last time I checked, but can not say what is being used today. >The reason why I suggested the use of tartaric acid was because a >particular beekeeper located in the coastal area of Virginia asked for > Had you read my first post you could have saved at least part of the precious minutes you invested in >I have three years of experience working for American queen breeders both >in California and southeast Georgia, so as you imagine I am absolutely >familiar with different kinds of artificial feeding from Drivert to HFCS. You are ahead of me I have never worked for any of them but have worked with them and was one for most of 40+ years I have been in the bees but I do not know it all by a long way as I have never heard of anyone using "tartaric acid" in the bee business to invert sugar or for anything else but that is not to say that it is not something we should all be doing but does seem at least to me just extra expense and work but then when I think of feeding bees it sends chills to my check book anyway. ttul, Andy- (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!