========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:35:59 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: HOney in Extractor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ALlen Dick wrote: ""If this keeps you up nights, think about this: The coming of HACCP regulations are going to be a real problem. I don't know what they will eventually turn out to be, but at the outset there were some who proposed that all the honey from *each yard* (each hive?) be kept separate and form a *separate batch* and that the extracting line and tanks should be washed between such batches." Are extractors supposed to be washed between batches? I always keep a layer of honey in mine for several months during the extracting season thwn at the end of season I wash it out to prevent granularization. Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:08:44 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Organic Honey/quality control - Australian style Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The National Association for Sustainable Agriculture (NASA) has a certification system for organic produce and has produced a standard applicable to honey. When I queried this some years back there was one beekeeper in Australia who was deemed to have met all the standards and to be qualified to label his/her honey as "organic". I now know of at least one other - a beekeeper on Kangaroo Island with 12 hives who owns land adjoining a National Park. He has paid the $160 fee for the testing and gone through the paperwork. The limitations on his procedures are that the hives cannot be moved since he would no longer exercise control over the foraging area, the honey must not be heated during or after extraction (there may be others). I do not believe that he is banned from purchasing foundation. He was proud that the testing procedure found no measurable contamination. However the largest producer on Kangaroo Island who migrates hives continuously has also had his honey tested, with identical results. The belief of the organic honey enthusiast is that there are health food shops galore out there who will buy NASA certified honey at a cost that will repay the investment. I doubt this. There are however very good reasons for stringent quality control of honey production. The honey packers in Australia have been working on adopting the International Standard for some years and have produced a Code of Practice for producers and packers. I find the code itself sensible and the honey packers are in a position to enforce this by refusing to buy from any beekeeper who will not comply with the code. This is control by market forces. Kangaroo Island has developed its own Quality Assurance Programme which is open to all Island businesses. Again the cost in my view is not reflected in increased profit margins. To go through the quality assurance programme will cost $400 annually. I question the assumption that quality control does not happen without an expensive bureaucratic procedure. When the auditing process fails, all producers will be tainted with the suspicion that the certification is worthless. Every honey producer is responsible for the quality of his/her product. We are proud of the quality of our honey and continually review systems. Whilst there is demand for high quality packaging and labelling (including bar codes) all of which we consider necessary expenditure, we have not had any feed-back on quality assurance certification. We are being continually informed that certification of quality assurance will enable higher prices to be charged and open new market opportunities. I have seen no evidence that this statement is true, at least as far as Kangaroo Island honey is concerned. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <00244019929762@internode.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Happy New Year to all fellow subscribers. I have only been on the list for a couple of months now, and have enjoyed ALMOST every posting, from the factual, to the sensible, to the downright weird. Over the last few days a thread has emerged which has encompassed a range of issues from organic honey through to food safety issues. Whilst some good stuff has been written, some has also come from people who you can almost visualise 'foaming at the mouth' as they have written it. Whilst I am not in the USA I feel that it may be useful to put together a piece containing my thoughts on this issue. On the organic issue first. I am not an organic fan and I don't buy organic goods. I am friendly with a professional analyst who tells me frequently of anomalies he discovers in this matter. Farms which are indubitably and verifiably organic having higher pesticide residues in their crops than non organic farms is commonplace, and, even without deceiptful use of pesticides hinted at in another posting, this can easily be attributed to spray drift from farms in the vicinity, or even coming down in the rain. Here in Scotland a few seasons ago we had a major producer who started marketing his honey with a large flashy 'ORGANICALLY PRODUCED' sticker on the lid. He did so to gain an advantage over his fellow producers. This was done on honey produced almost entirely from rapeseed (canola), which he also labelled as white clover. Both claims were obviously bogus. Whilst the latter description was strangely not illegal (rather than being legal) due to historic issues, despite analysis showing 86% rapeseed pollen, the former was certainly a claim which would have brought conflict with bodies in the mainstream organic movement. And rightly so. The consumer is entitled to protection from such claims. In the UK organic certification is handled by a body called the Soil Association. You can apply to them to have your product certified as organic. They are non governmental and highly ethical, so if you don't meet all the criteria you won't get approved. There is a market out there for organic produce and those seeking to buy organic goods are generally willing to pay a premium for it. This scheme entitles you to use the Soil Association logo on your approved products, and although it will cost you a bit to get approval, it will then let you tap into this premium market. Their inspectors will travel anywhere in the world to see the process right back to source before issuing approval. The consumer is also safeguarded by the knowledge that, if it carries the Association logo then it will be proper organic produce. Organic consumers take a very hard line on the subject, it is either organic or it is not, they will not accept such claims as 75% organic or whatever as was suggested by one respondent. We, Denrosa, certainly cannot meet the needs of the Soil Association although we explored the matter several years ago, and as one respondent said, it is unlikely that any beekeeper in an industrialised or intensively farmed area of land will ever be able to do so. Please note that in this case it is the consumer who sets the standard he or she requires, and if we cannot meet it we either have to accept that or change our practices to meet that need. We cannot attempt to have the height of the bar lowered so that we just sneak over, as to this type of client this will not be acceptable. It is also surely fair to those who do invest the time and money into meeting the criteria in order to achieve the higher price, that they are not then undermined by people taking a free ride on the back of their investment and simply putting an organic label on produce which, strictly in terms of the criteria, is not. In the event of absence of non governmental supervision of such a scheme in the USA ( you tell me, I don't know), it is surely a good idea for them to take a hand in it, but, unless you all want to pay taxes to benefit only a few producers and consumers, it surely should be self financing. In other words, user pays. You want a certificate allowing you to tap into a premium market then you, not everybody, should pay for getting that certificate. Take your beekeepers hat off for a moment and put on your consumers hat. You will want the foods you buy to have been produced in correct conditions, and that the claims on the label are accurate and true. Anything which assists in ensuring this is normally helpful to you, the consumer, although it may, at least superficially, be unhelpful to you, the producer. Which neatly brings us round to food safety. I buy many foods from many countries round the world. How can I be sure that the product I buy from say Guatemala, or Turkey, or USA, is safe? I can only feel secure because of the quality control activities of both the brander(who may or may not be the producer) and the vendor. Very few of us go right back to the source producer for our foods, except perhaps to farm shops, or in the case of beekeepers to their premises or roadside stands, instead we almost all now shop in supermarkets of one form or another, and thus cannot know at first hand about production conditions or quality control at source. These companies have a legal obligation to audit the products they sell and the premises they are produced in to protect us, the consumers. It is not exactly worded as that, but they are obliged to demonstrate 'due diligence' in their selection criteria for the goods they sell. One way of doing this is by ensuring that the producer has in place a correct and auditable system of ensuring product safety. Such a system, and there are much worse which could have been imposed, is HACCP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Points). It works by focussing in on areas of risk in a process, and by its very nature therefore is a much more onerous thing in a meat plant than in a honey facility. Record keeping is crucial, as is the accountability of those completing the records. In our case the crucial, (high risk) areas are very few, and thus our HACCP system is fairly simple. Risks are graded, full records kept, and thus batch traceability can be achieved, minimising the danger to you, the business, in the event of a product recall. The beauty of HACCP is that, given some good quality guidance either from a consultant or from literature, you can write the system yourself at very low cost. Then you can do the forms on your home computer and you are in business. As a honey producer it is relatively easy to do but it is crucial to take the view of an outsider looking in and not take the part of the hostile producer resistant to the changes that may be required. Embark on it with hostility and it is unlikely that you will devise a system satisfactory to your larger customers. Fail to implement HACCP at all and it is likely that you will eventually lose all but your smaller clients as the need for due diligance defences increases, particularly in a litigious society like the USA. Market forces were quoted in one post. Well eventually market forces will make you do this, even if you don't want to, unless you are small scale, in which case you are selling largely on your own reputation and will not need any such protection. I call it protection most advisedly. It is also (my first thought) an unwanted imposition and a pain in the butt. However, upon reflection, after having gone through the exercise, it is actually a good thing and helps our business move onwards and upwards, both in improved organisation and the sense of security it gives to prestigious clients, who then feel safe to select your products for their stores rather than competing brands. It protects because, when correctly implemented and the right disciplines are in place it should prevent you making any serious errors or lapses in quality which could damage your interests. It will also enable you to pass any damages claim 'down the line' to the next one back in the supply chain, because you have taken, and recorded the fact that you have, every reasonable precaution. Someone else touched on batch sizes. We segregate by site(yard). This apparently involves extra work but it turns out that that was just a perception before doing it as in reality it does not. It is wise to break you batch size down to as low as is reasonably achievable. Batch size is up to you. It can be by yard, or days run, or whole season, or whatever. How effective the segregation is is also for you to decide, but you must bear in mind the need not to compromise the system by a silly shortcut. For example we only allow the extractors to drain for a few minutes between batches, and then any residues just go in with the next lot. In large industrial scale extracting plants segregation by yard is not practical, so you use some other system such as a days run. The crucial point is that if for some reason your product turns out to be contaminated with heaven knows what, the smaller and more precisely traceable the batch is, the easier it is to establish the source, attribute a cause, and probably establish your own due diligence defence against any claim. The batch in question may need to be condemned, so the smaller it is the better protected you are. What a tragedy it would be to be lazy about batching and just call your whole years production one batch to find that there was something wrong with some of it. It is almost an insurance policy and can result in lower product liability insurance premiums. From the consumer point of view it is probably perfectly apparent that most honey is well produced and packed. However I can tell you a couple of examples that show the need for legislative intervention. A beekeeper, in another part of the country, was rapidly expanding his enterprise, and everything seemed most impressive. The product was well packed and presented and of good quality. Photographs showed the nice modern packing plant. Trouble was the packing plant did not exist. The honey was being extracted, filtered and packed in an old set of chicken sheds with earth floors and which had not even been properly cleaned out. There was visible chicken dirt in the corners of the building. The guy was not investing in the correct hygenic infrastructure and just selling more and more honey from more and more hives without incurring the cost base of other producers. Another guy was doing fine and genuinely had a very nice plant, trouble with him was he did not have a large enough shed and stored his empty jars in an adjoining barn. All were washed prior to use so everything was OK till the environmental health officers found that, prior to washing, the jars were contaminated with rat urine. The consumer could not have known, and so someone has to be there to police our interests. Proper, effective, and auditable HACCP systems are one way of doing this without overly intrusive governmental action. Someone also mentioned restrictions imposed by the EU causing a lack of flexibility on behalf of honey packers. The only grounds I can see for this is in the legal weights legislation which apply to certain product groupings only. I do not find the legislation to be all that intrusive and is only really there to protect consumers. As for the guy who was selling the 'Organiclly Produced' honey? Well he was stopped but has had a few other ruses since then. Currently it is 'Original Cold Pressed' which unfortunately is another can of worms all together, and also much in need of legal clarification. Sorry about the length of this piece, a lot of which will be of no interest whatsoever to beekeepers, but it is a debate which will no doubt run on and on for a very long time, and ultimately, through our food purchasing patterns, will affect every one of us. Murray -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:41:42 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Message failure message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received an odd message to my post. Anybody know what it means? If I don't get a reply I'll know I'm not getting through. [002] Mail was received for unknown addresses. Message was not delivered to CENTRALLAB/CENTRALLAB/TPHILLIPS(CENTRALLAB/CENTRALLAB/TPHILLIPS) Any ideas? mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:13:57 -0800 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey/quality control - Australian style MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both Mary and Murray wrote of organic organizations that set honey standards and showed that they can work. Don't disagree. But this is a US government standard. I worked in the US government and know that regulations can take on a life of their own. Plus, you do not know the power that obscure GS-11's like to exert when backed by some new regulation. And they never die (the reg, not the GS-11.). But they do expand (both this time- need more GS-11s to enforce the expanded regulation). In Maine we have a strong organic organization with farm organic standards- both veggies and farm animals. The standards have evolved with time to reflect good organic practice and attainability. For example, using their guidelines antibiotics can be used on farm animals . The Maine honey standards are not realistic but, in time they would be modified to reflect attainable, good practices. That sort of common sense evolution is unlikely with a government regulation. Unless you have the means to influence the "process". Where is Tom Jefferson when you need him? Bill Truesdell Bath, ME j h & e mcadam wrote in part: > The National Association for Sustainable Agriculture (NASA) has a > certification system for organic produce and has produced a standard > applicable to honey. When I queried this some years back there was one > beekeeper in Australia who was deemed to have met all the standards and to > be qualified to label his/her honey as "organic". > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:06:09 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Message failure message In-Reply-To: <34ABAB25.7991FAC8@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <34ABAB25.7991FAC8@together.net>, Michael Palmer writes >Received an odd message to my post. Anybody know what it means? If I >don't get a reply I'll know I'm not getting through. >[002] Mail was received for unknown addresses. Message was not delivered >to CENTRALLAB/CENTRALLAB/TPHILLIPS(CENTRALLAB/CENTRALLAB/TPHILLIPS) >Any ideas? mike I've had this one the last few times I've posted anything, today included. As I have had direct replies on several occasions the postings have obviously got through, so I have just ignored this message. murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:57:42 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey/quality control - Australian style In-Reply-To: <34ABEAF5.20829112@clinic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <34ABEAF5.20829112@clinic.net>, Bill Truesdell writes >Don't disagree. But this is a US government standard. I worked in the US >government >and know that regulations can take on a life of their own. Plus, you do not know >the power that obscure GS-11's like to exert when backed by some new regulation. >And they never die (the reg, not the GS-11.). But they do expand (both this >time- >need more GS-11s to enforce the expanded regulation). I agree that you could have a problem when some little megalomaniac behind a desk, armed with a new piece of legislation, decides to carve out a little empire for him/her self. However, it is an inescapable fact that the organic brigade are a specialised niche market all of their own. They are prepared to pay to have food which is of the purity level they require, and produced under the conditions they require and using the methods they require. These consumers are really the people setting the agenda here. They are not just buying a product, more subscribing to an entire lifestyle and production system. As such the purity of the product almost becomes secondary to the ethos behind its production. Just like you and I, they are entitled to get what they require if they are prepared to pay what it takes to get it. Enough organically produced honey (properly certified) is available from countries like Swaziland to meet current demand from that market sector, all properly audited and produced in the manner the organic lobby require. The fact that your honey or mine does not meet with their approval is largely irrelevant to them, as sufficient product CAN be obtained without lowering their expectations. Quality is not the primary issue, or much of the organic honey would not readily find a market, but the production circumstances most certainly are. Our honey, and I dare say that of almost every subscriber, is a lovely pure clean product in which there will be no worse a contamination problem than in most organic honey. Nonetheless it is NOT organic, and as such is not what these customers demand. Dilution of the criteria to meet producers interests will simply not be acceptable to these people, and explanations which say that 'we label it as organic because it is as good as organic' just won't wash. As a fringe group, for that is what as beekeepers we are, have special desires, interests and needs all of our own. We expect support from governmental bodies, and attempt to have changes made which are compatible with our interests. The organic set are no different. If there is no framework in place to prevent unscrupulous operators misusing the term organic on produce they will undoubtedly feel vulnerable, and feel that this legislation is necessary to protect them. Only those operators seeking to exploit the organic market, but whose products and methods do not meet the requirements, would have anything to fear from these rules. Remember, what we consider draconian and impossible to comply with may be exactly the standard these people want. It is their right to demand it and it is NOT our right to have the rules relaxed to imply that we meet it. If you don't want the state or its employees to have any part in this you need an effective monitoring body NOW! I'm sure, however, that a body set up and run by the organic trade to meet their needs would be no easier, and probably worse, to deal with than any state run scheme. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:20:59 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Message failure message If I recall correctly, it used to be that if you sent a message to BEE-L, and one of BEE-L's subscribers had dropped off the edge without properly unsubscribing from BEE-L, the message that BEE-L was sending to that particular subscriber would bounce back to you, the sender of a message to BEE-L. Hope I made that clear as mud. Perhaps Allen / Aaron could clear this up. Al, ----------------------------------------------------------- <"Mailto: awneedham@juno.com" > Scituate,Massachusetts,USA The Beehive- Educational Honey Bee Site http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:31:46 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Message failure message In-Reply-To: <17323208930725@internode.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Hope I made that clear as mud. Perhaps Allen / Aaron could > clear this up. I'm no more wise to what is happening than the rest of the gang. I'm replying to a BEE-L log which I've had to order twice from the LISTSERV to see if my posts were getting thru and to see if anything is going on, since my incoming BEE-L flow has slowed to a trickle. Seems that I'm getting a few posts here and there but some including my own are not coming thru. (I have the ACK turned off and instead have my own posts sent back to me so that I can see they got posted). I think Aaron may have a handle on this altho we had some weird LISTSERV happenings before and I don't think he ever got entirely to the bottom of it. I imagine he is off for a day or so right now (and he does not admit to reading BEE-L on his days off). The previous glitches cleared themselves up spontaneously, I gather. BTW, He's been promoted, so he doesn't sit gazing at the BEE-L server all day any more. At any rate, I'm getting the same strange message and sporadic mail flow at my Best of Bee account (outgoing and ingoing), so what I think is happening is that somerelay server on the Internet has gone nuts and is not relaying properly. When things go thru there, there are problems. When an alternate route happens to be chosen--due to net traffic patterns --of the moment, everything is fine. Some of us on one (speaking non-technically) 'end' of the net are having more trouble than others. I imagine that the guy who maintains the troublesome server in question is maybe in a self induced year end coma and that once he comes to, things will get back to norbal. Happy New Year all. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:21:49 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Message failure message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello friends and Happy New Year. In the last few days, I have received quite a few of those returned mail messages. Since there is virus circulating which uses the words "returned mail" I have deleted each and every one of them the very moment I see it. I am still leery of any message that includes the words to that effect; hence, I'll continue to delete them. My apologies to all recipients to whom I have sent messages and did not received them. I hope that we have not missed too many messages during this mix-up. Best of wishes. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:09:41 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marcos Toribio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD161F.A5C091A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD161F.A5C091A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Feliz a=F1o nuevo 1998 deso intercambio de CARABIDOS pale=E1rtico occidental Marcos Toribio Avda. Vi=F1uelas, 32 - 1=BAA 28760 Tres Cantos (Madrid - Espa=F1a) ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD161F.A5C091A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Feliz año nuevo=20 1998
deso=20 intercambio de CARABIDOS paleártico occidental
 
Marcos Toribio
Avda. = Viñuelas, 32 - 1ºA
28760 Tres Cantos
(Madrid -=20 España) 
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD161F.A5C091A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:41:01 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave from Scranton Subject: Re: NEW BEE STAMP In-Reply-To: <34A81AA7.5332@ionet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I vote for the young, skinny, pre-Las Vegas honey bee stamp. ****************************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, The Internet Cafe | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, Web Development Group | reaction is the alternative. Scranton, Pennsylvania | (717) 344-1969 | -Daniel De Leon dave@www.scranton.com | ****************************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:56:44 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Igualmente Marcos. Por curiosidad, ?que son cararbidos? Espero que no te enfades por mi pregunta. Yo he vivido muchos anios en Madrid y mi esposa es Madrilenia (como veras no tengo tilde en el sistema). Alv er que eres natural de Madrid me he tomado interes en tu pregunta en caso de que te pudiese ayudar en algo. Aqui estamos para lo que sea. Un abrazo Pedro Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:20:28 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Re: Using honey bees to spread bio-control agents is this the same st .johns wort (Hypericum perforatum) that is the herbal alternative to synthetic anti-depressants and weight-loss drugs, supposedly without the side effects? if so, then there may be a more appropriate control strategy that could benefit the outback economy: selective harvesting by humans coupled by propagation via honeybee pollination...perhaps even pollen-trapping if the active ingredient (hypericin) is found in it, and maybe even a honey crop, conceivably also medicinal? here in florida(usa), a similar scenario has evolved with saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), a native nectar source plant (so abundant as to be considered a weed by some) whose berries have become a medicinal-herb commodity (for prostrate gland problems, i believe) requiring state regulation due to potential overharvesting...it yields both a palatable honey in the spring and a sort of "honeydew" later on from the overripe berries, but i don't know if anyone has considered testing for pharmacological activity (as in the case of manuka honey from new zealand)... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:20:29 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Carlos Aparicio Subject: How much time a beehive lives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some time ago I have a doubt, whose response could not find in any apiculture book, and that perhaps someone could give me at the very least an opinion. The question is: How much time lives a bee colony? Is out of the point how much lives a bee, or drone or queen, but the colony in its current location. Interest particularly the wild colonies. I know one that is more than fifteen years, and it does not give obsolescence signs. I ask me if it will be able to arrive to 50 years, or to hundred. Any opinion or feedback on this subject will be greatly appreciated. Carlos Aparicio ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:56:04 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: Organic Honey I agree with Murray McGregor's two recent messages concerning organic honey. Some others on the Bee-L seem to be missing the point that the new U.S.D.A. regulations are simply a reflection of what people expect when they buy a product labeled organic--that ALL inputs be organic. Whether this is a rational expectation is another issue, but it is what they expect. I have been very frustrated trying to produce and market honey on a small, local scale when other local producers are willing to slap an organic label on their "unorganic" honey and thereby dominate the local market. The insistance of some beekeepers in the U.S. on marketing "organic" honey, when it does not meet the buyer's expectations, proves the need for the new U.S.D.A. regulations. Steve Phillips Perry, KS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:08:15 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Bonney Subject: Re: How much time a beehive lives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carlos There is no one answer to your question about how long a bee colony lives? In theory, under ideal conditions, a feral colony lives forever, superseding the queen whenever she begins to fail. In practice, the length of time is highly variable depending on such factors as geography, specific location, disease, mites, availability of food, natural and unnatural enemies, and more. Kept colonies have all the same problems with the added disadvantage to them of the beekeeper's ministrations. Feral colonies are often said to live in one spot for many, many years without interruption. This probably happens, especially under conditions approaching ideal. However, I believe that many apparently long-lived colonies are actually not so long-lived. They die for whatever reason and before anyone notices their absence, they are replaced by a swarm. Most feral colonies are not under constant observation so our conclusions about them tend to be based on scanty information. Of course, everything is changing these days with the presence of the mites. Any truly long-lived feral colony is to be treasured. Dick Bonney rebonney@javanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:08:11 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all. Happy New Year. I was a supervisory Inspector for 17 years for U.S.D.A.. Those of you who advocate for Federal Regulation of Honey products simply do not know what you are talking about. We have a saying in the Spanish language that describes this situation very appropriately. (translated literally): "It is an entirely different thing to call for the devil and another to see the devil coming." In my opinion, Federal regulation of honey products would be catastrophic for the small operator, and very costly for large scale producers. In the long run, one thing can be counted on. It will skyrocket the price of honey resulting in decreased honey consumption. Such are the consequences of meeting Federal inspection minimum requirements. I am totally in support for establishing guidelines for sanitary requirements and meeting wholesome standards. Requesting compulsory government regulation is not the right way to achieve it. I'd just like to suggest to my fellow beekeepers that they remember my Spanish adage, and don't tempt the devil. Best regards. Dr. R. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:13:34 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: Organic Honey Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: " ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:18:45 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Mineral Oil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3D5E5D4D71140F6D7DDDDB1E" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3D5E5D4D71140F6D7DDDDB1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Paul. Happy New Year. I am attaching a file with the name of a FGMO provider. Please let me know if you get this file okay. Good luck Best regards. Dr. R. --------------3D5E5D4D71140F6D7DDDDB1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="MO.Tom Rozic.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="MO.Tom Rozic.txt" From - Fri Oct 24 12:37:28 1997 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <344FDAEA.AA708F44@norfolk.infi.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:16:58 -0400 From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Organization: Independent non-profit research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kirk Jones Subject: Re: Oils and Varroa Mites References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Kirk: A friend of mine (a beekeeper who learned about my FGMO method from the net) who located two addresses for FGMO. You might be interested in checking them out. You'll notice that the price per gallon is just about what I have been paying for a pint up to now. The address in MI sells gallon quantities; the one in PA sells larger quantities. Tom Rozic Don Johnson 1-800-245-3952 248-474-7878 Karns City, Pa Farmington Hills, MI Tom Rozic is the *big* distributor. Johnson is a sub distributor. Please let me know how you make out since a lot of people have been asking me for sources of FGMO. Best regards Dr. R. --------------3D5E5D4D71140F6D7DDDDB1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="mineral oil (FG).suppliers.bulk.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="mineral oil (FG).suppliers.bulk.txt" From - Sun Sep 28 22:59:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from quartz.netsync.net (root@quartz.netsync.net [206.231.8.2]) by mh004.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA30709 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jmtnppp17.netsync.net (jmtnppp17.netsync.net [206.231.9.27]) by quartz.netsync.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA09346 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:09:02 -0400 Received: by jmtnppp17.netsync.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BCCAC9.1A5D7160@jmtnppp17.netsync.net>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:11:13 -0400 Message-ID: <01BCCAC9.1A5D7160@jmtnppp17.netsync.net> From: "Robert B. Dahlgren" To: "'\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez'" Subject: Locating FG Mineral Oil Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:10:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mh004.infi.net id WAA30709 X-UIDL: 9870267c29499c73ebcd83e007dad747 X-Mozilla-Status: 8003 I have hunted on the Web for a source of mineral oil in larger quantities than pints. I contacted an Amoco handler : Steve Ware Manager - Lubricants Division Keneco Distributors Web Site: http://www.rareyroth.com/keneco/default.htm Amoco Lubricants Web Site: http://www.amoco.com/lubes Marathon Oil Co. Web Site: http://www.marathonoil.com/ Distributors of Amoco & Marathon Lubricants Phone 800-589-8065 Fax 419-422-3641 These are Steve's Web addresses. He says that they have only one package, 55 gal. Drums. Prices vary from $4.66/gal. to $5.14/gal. fob their facilities. Viscosities range from 55.3 SUS at 100F (the lightest) which would be approximately 1/2 as light as 5 weight motor oil to 360 SUS at 100F which would approximate the viscosity of a 20 weight motor oil. There are 8 viscosities offered in between this range. He says, "These oils are Amoco's Superia White Mineral Oils. We also offer other mineral oils which somewhat less expensive. They are almost as high in quality as the Superia oils. All oils are USDA H-1 and 3-H rated and Kosher certified. Therefore they are safe for human and animal consumption. If you can give me an idea of the viscosity of oil you are looking for, I would be pleased to make recommendations. We are located in Findlay, OH." If I knew how to copy and paste this may have been easier. I'm sure that I should have been able to copy his E-Mail into this one. It seems that I searched "Amoco Oil Co." on the Web and found their distributors. There were none in NY State so I tried this one in OH. You may be able to locate one closer to VA. Steve seems to be very informative, I told him that it was to be used in bee hives for mite control. I'm still searching for other sources. It seems as though someone would be putting mineral oil up in smaller containers - 2 gal. or 5 gal. We haven't had our bee meeting yet. It will be on the 7th of Oct. too bad you are so far away or maybe we could have you speak on the use of mineral and your findings. The Falconer - Jamestown area is in the Southwestern corner of NY State at or near the end of Route 17 - Exit 12 & 13. There has been no severe frost here yet so the Goldenrod and Asters are still producing necter. It seems as if everything has been late this year so it is good that we are having a late fall. I have downloaded your files from Barry Birkey's Web page. Very good. When I was younger I had thoughts of being a vet but somewhere that went asunder. I grew up on a dairy farm. Even sewed up some cow's teats when they got stepped on and split. I just received the book "The Instrumental Insemenation of the Queen Bee" by Dr. R.F.A. Moritz. It seems to be very informative on the subject. I ordered it from Larry Connor when he was at one of our meetings last spring - had to wait , it was back ordered. Got another one coming by Page and Laidlaw but I guess that it isn't finished yet. It's on Bee Genetics or Bee Breeding. Well I guess that I've rambled enough. Maybe I should say buzzed. For better beekeeping Bob Dahlgren --------------3D5E5D4D71140F6D7DDDDB1E-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:27:07 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: STEVE PHILLIPS Subject: Re: Organic Honey--Reply Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: "Those of you who advocate for Federal Regulation of Honey products simply do not know what you are talking about. . . . In my opinion, Federal regulation of honey products would be catastrophic for the small operator, and very costly for large scale producers. . . . ."I The regulations will not affect honey producers who do not advertise their honey as organic. Certification and inspection is only for products labeled as "organic." And yes, I do know what I'm talking about, at least some of the time. During the day I'm a lawyer for the State of Kansas, although the opinions I express are my own and not those of the agency I work at. (Yes. I'm one of those damned bureaucrats.) I hit send too quickly in typing this message, and may have inadvertently sent a partially edited reply to the list. Sorry. Steve Phillips Perry, KS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:07:27 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Organic Honey--Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:27 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: Hi Steve, >The regulations will not affect honey producers who do not advertise their honey as organic. Certification and inspection is only for products labeled as "organic." Yeah, and "I am from the government and I am here to help you!" It is far too easy to say when a new regulation is in the review process how it is meant only for the few and will not harm the majority, but more time then not the final law is something quite different, and it is reasonable after reviewing this new regulation and looking at the costs stated of doing this regulation to think that unless ALL beekeepers/honey producers are included it will not be economically feasible as a federal regulation. >And yes, I do know what I'm talking about, at least some of the time. During the day I'm a lawyer for the State of Kansas, although the opinions I express are my own and not those of the agency I work at. (Yes. I'm one of those damned bureaucrats.) Nothing wrong with that on the face of it. I don't know what is going on in the Sunflower state but here on the left coast we have had good, so I am told, state regulation for the use of the word "organic" on our agriculture products and are not in need of more from the lost tribe that abodes in DC. I am still amazed on just how many in bee regulation echo on retirement or separation from their bureaucratic positions, and/or academic positions the same sentiments as our good doctor here. I am not a MO convert but must say his honesty is appreciated and worthy of greater respect. ttul, the OLd Drone Los Banos, Calif. -- Cogito ergo Tagline ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 01:16:45 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: My funny bee story Hi All Just saw Jans pleasant story about the escaped queen and the little tree hive and the honey. Reminded me of a removal I did a while back when the owner said hello to me and rushed back inside. Usually people like to watch, but I was not worried. ( Meant I could put my gear on and get stung less : ) ) Soon I removed the few cones there and smoked the bees out. The queen in her wiseness found a nice steady object to settle on nearby - the reciever of the nearby satellite dish. Soon the owner came out and said that they were not getting any reception on the TV below - and the match was at a crucial stage. I think it was cricket. Anyhow, he went of down the street to another house to watch there and I got the swarm in a box. Now the question is, does the queen flie with an even pitch to her wings or her feet? (ouch!!) Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:33:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Greetings Comments: To: GRACEWAY@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU Comments: cc: kakiaxo@aol.com, normbrekke@juno.com, g95c6713@warthog.ru.ac.za, WWcooper@sprynet.com, TheKolonel@Top.Monad.Net, Micro@Top.Monad.Net, SCREASY@juno.com, MDROGOWSKI@aol.com, gfallon@nji.com, jefffoy1@juno.com, billglover@juno.com, jwg6@cornell.edu, teagles@hackworth.com, ghankins@ac.net, dhathaw@cris.com, Dan4Songs@aol.com, CVA19Jake@aol.com, Kellenbenz@aol.com, soltys@bellsouth.net, bclay10370@aol.com, cfwc1@gil.net, MCKECHNIES@juno.com, southern1@mindspring.com, bneumann@netrox.net, treym@bridge.net, BILLPO13@aol.com, dronebee@pilot.infi.net, dlscrogg@bellsouth.net, kshull@mindspring.com, ksoltys@juno.com, Bandman4@aol.com, doc23id@cyberhighway.net, RTHORP@28BBL.WA.COM, ptt1000@juno.com, www.mwarren972@aol.com, 9111a@bellsouth.net, cwil31@aol.com, bswinkler@aol.com, pkman7@aol.com, jwolf@az.com I was able to play the part of "Santa" at one of the shopping centers called "The Falls this past Christmas.. For the most part its been a real blast. You woiuld have to know me to know and appreciate how much I really enjoyed this job. Everyone loved me,at least who I represented. Anyhow,we closed as usual at 10:00 one tuesday. At 10:05 a 9 year old boy named Danny begged the two girls (Santas helpers) to see me. No problem for me. I greeted him-no response. Asked him how he was doing-no response. By then he was sitting in my lap so I asked him what he wanted for Christmas. I guess he was done checking me out cause he started talking.. "Santa,he said,I only want one thing for Christmas. I promise I won't ask for anything else. Would you please help me get my Daddy back,he died on Thanksgiving day". (By then we were both crying} Not really knowing what to say I told him that their were certian things that even Santa couldn't do. Then he really got me when he said," Could you please talk to Jesus and tell Him that I need my Daddy more than He does?" I know Danny's loss,I've had the same experience. Their are those among us that have suffered losses like Danny. When those losses occur we will do any of a number of things depending where we are in our relationship with God. Such faith Danny had,thinking that Santa had an in with Jesus. It was one of those precious unforgetable moments in time for me. As speechless as I was (Those of you who know me well know that is rare) the best I could come up with was---lets pray and he went for it. It was a prayer of love and comfort,not real long. When we finished I looked up and their was Danny's mom,also crying. We all three hugged and I offered to be Danny and his 13 year old brothers big brother. Sai la vie,there it is,a day in the life of "Santa". Have you ever seen him cry? Take Care and GBY,John in Homestead,also at ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:59:25 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: UNcapping Tank Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In Brushy Mountain Bee Farm's catalog there is an Uncapping Tank which is a one piece tub and uses a metal bound queen excluder. Before I purchase one of these, I would like to get some feedback on this unit. Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:53:53 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Organic Honey--Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello friends. Must emphasize: I have not called anyone at anytime, damned anything. I do not not have animosity for beaurocrats nor for any level of government regulator. I worked all my professional life for the federal government and I am proud of my tenures. Yes, I am a two time retiree, Army Colonel and GS-13 Civil servant, grateful and pro government. But, because of my vast experience and knowledge about the history of government regulatory programs, I can extrapolate into the honey producing industry. Believe it or not, judging precisely by past history, I can foresee that it will have a "snowball effect" once the process starts rolling. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:07:03 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Metal Hive Stands Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a welding friend who would like to make me a few hive stands. Are there any metal stand designs available? Thanks. Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:14:06 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Peter Amschel Subject: Re: How much time a beehive lives? In-Reply-To: <16271389032206@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > The question is: How much time lives a bee colony? Is out of the point > how much lives a bee, or drone or queen, but the colony in its current > location. > Ten years ago I had a wild colony take up occupancy in an old rusted out beer keg at my property. That colony lived just fine for several years until the third year a heavy rain flooded it out. I knew nothing about bees in those days and this wild colony is what got me interested in them. Since then I had two years with Langstroth hives and one year with a top bar hive. I am hoping for the top bar hive colony to live forever, and to add another one or more. I think the beer keg hive could have lived indefinitely except for the big flood. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:08:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Watson Subject: Re: My funny bee story In-Reply-To: <29A424B58E3@warthog.ru.ac.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Garth wrote: snip> > Soon I removed the few cones...... Cones???? C O M B S , i think ! honeycombs.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:09:18 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Plastiv vs Queen Excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Are plastic queen excluders easier/better to use than metal ones? Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Cyberchiro and Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:17:45 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: How long does a colony live Hi All To answer Carlo's question of how long hive live: I have removed a hive which was just over thirty years old. I know of a place on a cliff where there is a large beehive that goes into a crevice. More thann two hundred years agon people built a ladder out of cedar logs to the hive. Presumably they could only get the bit of the hive that protruded out of the crevice. When I was there there were bees - so bees have lived there for two hundred years - we don't know if there were gaps in that period. I also know of a hive in my town which is in an oak tree that has apparently been there for about thirty years as well. But on the whole I believe a colony will be it's strongest for about ten years in a decent size cavity. After that it will being to have too much black comb and being to smell - becoming grumpy and unhealthy eventually dieing. Soon a hot day will result in the uncooled hive falling apart with combs melting of the roof and it will soonn be re occupied, bees building frech new combs and so the cycle goes on. Hope that is of help. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:08:44 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Santa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good job Santa. May the force be with you, and the wind be always at your back. Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:20:27 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Plastiv vs Queen Excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Paul. Happy New Year. I had the opportunity to use some plastic excluders sometime ago and I opted from throwing them away. They were ineffective in keeping the queens out (the same was true for similar metallic excluder in sheet form). I prefer metallic wire excluder because they do the job and are easier to clean when they get clogged with burr comb and propolis. BTW, to clean excluders, I just hold them over a flame and melt the comb or propolis. I hoe that this will give you a bird's eye view on my opinion on excluders. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:37:44 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony - Yeah, I got some good responses to my ad. Going to write them back today. Been skiing with my kids most every day. Great snow this year, and few flatlanders clogging up the lifts. They're back to school on Monday, so I guess I'll be skiing alone(me and my maker).What a good dad Tony - cleaning up after Alex's friend. *S* I'm afraid those organic regulations will have the same effect here in Vermont. Folks want to know what's wrong with my honey. Since it isn't labeled "organic" there must be something wrong with it. I could never comply with their regs. Most of my 30 yards are on dairy land also. Only place I can make consistently good crops. I have a real problem with rules that can't be realized. Yards can't be within 2 miles of: 1. Operating farms 2. Dumps 3. State highways 4. Population centers of 3500 or more 5. Power plant 6. Others too numerous to mention or ever remember. I asked for a map with all such locations marked in green. Haven't seen one yet. Go ahead and keep your bees in the Green Zone. Charge double for your crop. Go bankrupt in a few years(no honey, no money). Let's be real and truthful about this situation. If you want organic standards, regulate things that are regulatable. Get rid of the milage rules, and concentrate on things in the beekeepers management methods. Maybe then I'll support the organic efforts. At least he didn't do it on the rug.*grinning ear to ear* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:57:55 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: My funny bee story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Um9iZXJ0IFdhdHNvbiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBPbiBTYXQsIDMgSmFuIDE5OTgsIEdhcnRoIHdy b3RlOg0KPg0KPiBzbmlwPg0KPiA+IFNvb24gSSByZW1vdmVkIHRoZSBmZXcgY29uZXMuLi4u Li4NCj4NCj4gQ29uZXM/Pz8/ICAgICBDIE8gTSBCIFMgICwgaSB0aGluayAhDQo+DQo+IGhv bmV5Y29tYnMuLi4uDQoNCk5PICEhISEgICBoZSBtZWFuczoNCmNyaWNrZXQsIHF1ZWVucywg dHYgc2V0cywgc3Bvb25zLCBtaWNreSBtYXVzZSwgYnVtbWJsZSBiZWVzLCBrbG9vdGhvbW1l bHMsDQokJV4lJCMkJUAmXiUsIGphY2ssIHVuZGVydGFja2VyLCBjYXNrZXQsIGNsYXcgb2Yg bG9ic3RlciwgY29sbGFyZXQsDQpjYXJ0aWxhZ2UsIHNwYXJlIHR5cmUsIHJlc2VydmlzdCwg Z2FzdHJpdGlzLCBvciBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSB0aGF0Lg0KTXkgd2lmZSBzYWlkOiAiIHlv dSBjYW4gZmVlbCB0aGF0IG9uIHlvdXIgd29vZGVuIHNob2UsIElmIHlvdSBmZWVsDQp3aGF0 IEkgbWVhbiIgIDstKQ0KDQpOaWNlIGJlZ2lubmluZ3Mgb2YgMTk5OCwgUm9iZXJ0ICAgICAg IDstKA0KDQpsb3ZlIHRvIGFsbC4gamFuLg0KLS0NCrCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCw sLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsA0KSmFuIFRlbXBlbG1hbiAvIElu ZWtlIERyYWJiZSAgICAgfCAgICAgRU1BSUw6anRlbXBAeHM0YWxsLm5sDQpTdGVycmVtb3Mg MTYgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAzMDY5IEFTIFJvdHRlcmRhbSwgVGhlIE5ldGhlcmxhbmRzDQpU ZWwvRmF4IChTT01FVElNRVMpIFhYIDMxICgwKTEwLTQ1Njk0MTINCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cueHM0 YWxsLm5sL35qdGVtcC9pbmRleDMuaHRtbA0KsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCw sLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwDQoNCg0KDQo= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:54:32 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey--Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In article , Andy Nachbaur writes > >Yeah, and "I am from the government and I am here to help you!" It is far >too easy to say when a new regulation is in the review process how it is >meant only for the few and will not harm the majority, but more time then >not the final law is something quite different, and it is reasonable after >reviewing this new regulation and looking at the costs stated of doing >this regulation to think that unless ALL beekeepers/honey producers are >included it will not be economically feasible as a federal regulation. Dear All, I am still reading with interest the unfolding debate on the organic/food safety issue. I feel that the point of this is still being missed. It is all about ensuring that the entire organic food supply is indeed what it claims to be and that it meets the well established criteria consumers of these goods require. It is NOT about some cunning plan to extort more taxes out of all beekeepers. Why anyone should assume that organic criteria would then be applied to the entire beekeeping industry is quite beyond me. It is no more likely than having it applied throughout the entire beef or cereal industries. I agree wholeheartedly with Steve in his assertion that only those claiming organic status, who actually are not, would have anything to fear from this. Those seeking certification and thus access to what they see as a premium market should have to pay the true cost of their being audited and approved. This is fair and correct, otherwise you get into a situation where, through the general taxation system, all end up paying something towards the cost of such a scheme. If you genuinely believe that you have a truly organic (in the narrow sense required) product and can achieve the premium price, then I would have thought the concept of such a scheme would be in your favour. I also believe, as one or two respondents indicated, that the market for organic produce is not as large as might at first be perceived. Any premium obtainable would be quickly eroded by a change in the balance of supply and demand if a lot of producers were able to meet reduced criteria. I am not an organic fan and would have nothing to gain whatsoever from organic regulation, either in the USA (my products are sold there) or in the UK. I believe that the market is not sufficiently large or lucrative at present to even go into the market and buy organic honey and launch a certified organic line. However, one of the reasons it is not lucrative enough is the number of honeys purporting, without any certification, to be organic. Doubtless some of these claims are valid, but several will be at best dubious and a few will be fraudulent. Without some scheme to police and approve these products (it need not be governmental if the organic industry were to get their act together) there is nothing to tell the ultimate client whose goods are right and whose are wrong. It must be organic, not beekeeper, led, and it must be consistent, and it absolutely must have real teeth, otherwise it is of no value. This story is the organic industry's baby. It is for them to decide what criteria they need in the products they buy, and not for us to tell them what they are going to get. They may find difficulty in getting what they want, but that is largely their problem. Food safety issues are an altogether different thing. I would have thought that the two examples I cited in a previous posting should have been enough to illustrate the point that real inspections ARE important. As in the organic debate, those of us doing it right have NOTHING to fear from checking as to whether we are operating in hygenic conditions and using safe practices. These cases were in apparently well found businesses in a reputable country, yet things were a LONG way from well, and if they had not been caught by inspectors they could have gone on to do the trade a lot of damage. Imagine the newspaper headlines! The vast majority will be doing things correctly, or at worst will need minor changes, but you cannot have it both ways. Either you want the goods you buy, honey included, to be produced in a food safe environment or you are not fussy and would rather food premises were unregulated. In the latter case you cannot then turn round when you are injured in some way by your food and ask why the authorities had not done something about it. As I have already stated, the vast majority will be doing it right, but out there somewhere, claiming to be virtuous, is someone who is not. Properly empowered authorities can find these people and deal with them. HACCP is a good way of looking at things yourself, but as with all things, if there is no third party auditing how on earth do we know that good practice is being adhered to. Again it could be industry led, and from my experience it is usually where industry initiatives have been insufficient that regulators step in. The assertions that you cannot trust government servants is most unfair. There are good people and bad in all walks of life, and treating them all with hostility is not the way to get the best co-operation out of those who are genuine in their intentions. Indeed the idea that you can trust beekeepers better than government servants to do things right is a somewhat 'off the wall' sentiment probably not reflected in opinion outside beekeeping circles. Because of all the petty jealousy within the bee trade we all probably have another local beekeeper(s) right near the top of our list of least trustworthy people. (Be honest with yourself!). If you are seeking to avoid the imposition of a regulatory regime an the risk of having a power hungry beaurocrat breathing down your neck with religious zeal then I think the hostile tactics are all wrong. The more vehement your opposition, the more it will look as if you are hiding something (perhaps some are?), and the closer the scrutiny will get. Gentle steering, which looks like co-operation from the way it is presented, will result in your input being much more effective than an automatic hostile response. A sensible basic set of standards for packing premises, properly supervised, is fair to all consumers and responsible producers, only weeding out the unsatisfactory and the unco- operative. Murray -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:53:21 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Organic Honey--Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray. I have only one comment and one question about your post today. 1. Comment: watch out for those "teeth in order for it to work" in those regulations. 2. What is your experience and expertise in the history of regulatory services in the USA? I have lived and served in Europe many years. I am well acquainted with the way the common market functions. Believe me, "it aint the same in the U S of A." I want to emphasize that I do not produce honey for commercial purposes. I have nothing to gain or lose from government intervention on this subject. It just happens that honey bees are the love of my life, and I know deep inside my heart, that the ones that are bound to get hurt with this trend are the HONEY BEES, as if their lot need any more obstacles. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:35:57 -0800 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey--Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray, The point is that the standards are really unattainable for honey production. If you apply the same criteria for organic honey that is allowed for farm animals and produce you would arrive at a workable standard. But that is not the case here. In the case of farm animals and produce, you have had decades to develop working standards for organic produce. States certify organic farms based on those long standing standards. Those are the framework for the government standards- except for honey. To my knowledge thare has been no such standard up to two or so years ago, then it came out of the blue. There has been no long period, like farms had, to see if it works and modify it into something that keeps the product "organic" while allowing common sense to prevail. Instead, it will come from the government as a regulation with no prior trial period. By the way, I employ "organic" practices in my garden and fruit orchard, but I am in violation in one instance, because I use a manufactured pesticide. I use it because it is weaker and less harmful to the environment than the ones I could use as an organic farmer. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME > > > I am still reading with interest the unfolding debate on the > organic/food safety issue. > > I feel that the point of this is still being missed. It is all about > ensuring that the entire organic food supply is indeed what it claims to > be and that it meets the well established criteria consumers of these > goods require. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:59:51 -0800 Reply-To: jkphillips@sprynet.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean and Steve Phillips Organization: University of Kansas Law School Subject: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: " . . . it ain't the same in the US of A." Actually we have far fewer governmental rules and regulations in the US than in most of Europe. There are, admittedly, a few federal agencies in the U.S. that are out of control, but the USDA is not one of them. I'm glad the regs came from them, rather than the FDA or EPA. Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez wrote: "I know deep inside heart, that the ones that are bound to get hurt with this trend are the Honey Bees . . ." I don't see how regulation of organic honey will hurt anyone's bees. This is really a very narrow set of regulations that will not affect the vast majority of beekeepers, at least those that are marketing their honey honestly. Your interests in control of varroa with mineral oil, Dr. Rodriguez, will be furthered by this regulation because people who want to market organic organic honey will investigate methods such as yours. Steve Phillips Perry, KS jkphillips@sprynet.com (home) phillips@at01po.wpo.state.ks.us ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:12:08 -0800 Reply-To: jkphillips@sprynet.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean and Steve Phillips Organization: University of Kansas Law School Subject: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: "The point is that the standards are really unattainable for honey production." I disagree. The point is that these regulations accurately reflect what purchasers of organic produce, including honey, expect when they buy organic produce. Whether you or I can produce it is irrelevant. I also disagree that the standards are any more realistic for other farm animals, but that's getting off the topic. This regulation has also not come "out of the blue." I have known since the day I started keeping bees, 4 years ago, that I could not honestly market my honey as organic. These regulations have come about because of abuse of the term organic. Few states have effective regulation. Steve Phillips Perry, KS jkphillips@sprynet.com (home) phillips@at01po.wpo.state.ks.us ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:07:10 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Basingstoke Association's December Newsletter. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The December newsletter is now on the web site, url both here and in the sig as the latter sometimes gets cropped. http://www.apis.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/newsletters/ Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan, retd :-(; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank & Phronsie Humphrey Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. I have been following this thread with considerable interest. I have long thought that some sort of labeling standards needed to be applied to honey. However I don't want those standards enforces by big brother. as someone has already pointed out, production cost would increase considerably. There is another boogieman just waiting for honey to become to expensive for most buyers. It's call "Honey Product" and can be sold under any trade name. I have tasted some and it is very close to the taste of pure honey. It contains some honey, other sweeteners, artificial flavor artificial color. As far as I know, this product is legal so long as it is not labeled as pure honey. At present you can go to the grocery and buy cheese product, fruit juice that is not 100% juice and many other imitation products. At present, consumers are still buying pure honey even given the recent price increases. I don't know where the answer lies, but I think there need to be some improvement. However I would rather see these changes brought about by the industry rather than the government. Frank & Phronsie Humphrey beekeepr@cdc.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:23:13 -0600 Reply-To: rcanaday@ionet.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Canaday Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, I pray, & hope I live long enough to see that you are right, if the regulations in question are implemented. But I've worked for (US) for quite a few years now myself, & was even one of the 'GS-11's' referred to in an earlier post at one time... & I've just seen too many instances of abuse to give me a warm & fuzzy feeling about this whole thing. I too am thankful it wasn't the EPA who was involved with these regs... Personally, I think they are already out of control. I'd hate to see that happen w/ any other agencies. Maybe it's just a matter of funding (don't give 'em enough money to do any damage...), I don't know. Anyway, time will tell. Good luck in the coming year to all, and thanks for the many informative & thought-provoking posts!!! Love this list. Roy in Oklahoma (AC5KJ) (small-time beekeeper) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:51:08 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moriarty Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 31 Dec 1997 to 1 Jan 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just wanted to thank you for your piece on organic question on Bee-L. It is possible for myself (Hawaii) and friends in New Zealand to produce organic honey. I am considering bringing in wax from these friends to use for my foundation, and avoid the pesticides in the USA... Aloha, mike moriarty \\\|/// \\~~ ~~// (/ @ @ /) +--oOOO----------(_)--------------+ | Michael Moriarty | | P.O. Box 1102 | | Kapaau, Hawaii 96755 | | 808-889-5809 | +--------------------------oOOO---+ |___|___| | | | | oooO Oooo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:44:51 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Whilst some good stuff has been written, some has also come from people > who you can almost visualise 'foaming at the mouth' as they have written > it. And here I thought I had a good imagination. Try and try as I might, I cannot visualize even a tiny bit of slobber on the chins of my BEE-L friends. I did notice more than a little earnestness and anxiety in their words, but foam? Come now! Once again we remember that this is an international list and that different cultures and social groups have different ways and different fears. Anyone who forgets that gets a giggle or two from the crowd. FWIW I vote you two giggles (minimum). And me (shame) one--for responding to your troll. When I sat down to write this I expected to be addressing some substantive points, given the length and tone of your original post. However, other than showing you are comfortable with the current level of regulation in your jurisdiction, detailing a voluntary HACCP compliance situation and discussing batch sizes, I can't see how you are addressing the issues that concern the 'foamers'. Many are less sanguine about governments and their agendas and demand something of real value for each and every expenditure of legislative power and taxpayer money. They seem to believe that there should actually be a good and valid reason for each and every law and that the law or regulation should be reasonable and legislators ought to consider all the circumstances in which such rules might be applied. Moreover they are aware that the presence of any regulation *implies* certain things and leads to assumptions and possible further action, and they are thus biased towards minimum government regulation and taxation. Not surprisingly, it turns out that most of the people writing on the topic have quite a bit of exposure to government regulation both in writing and enforcing rules--as well as being on the receiving end of regulation and enforcement. Some are or have been government people and others are or have been directors of state or national bee associations -- and it is not surprising that there is a high level of apprehension shown when new legislation is contemplated. (If we have to show our credentials here, FWIW, I have served at some time in each of the above roles over the last quarter century). Unofficially, in my own daily life, I personally I just say, "Thank heavens we don't get *half* the government we pay for" and hope if I shut up and keep my head down that the shadow will pass me by and find another more interesting project. Thankfully though there are those who take up the cause and challenge every new encroachment by governments on personal liberty. If not for them we would still be serfs (most of us anyhow). When a large and powerful forces like coalitions of international governments start to focus on one's livelihood and beaureaucrats begin to think they know more about one's business than the proprietor, and one has read even a little history, one would be nuts not to get a bit edgy. That is of course unless one is very young and naive--or one believes we are in a whole new age and that the experiences of the past no longer obtain. Santayana had some good thoughts on that several "whole new eras" ago. > Take your beekeepers hat off for a moment and put on your consumers hat. > You will want the foods you buy to have been produced in correct > conditions, and that the claims on the label are accurate and true. > Anything which assists in ensuring this is normally helpful to you, the > consumer, although it may, at least superficially, be unhelpful to you, > the producer. What is the point of ignoring the position of other writers then arguing at length with yourself? Who is wearing a beekeepers hat? Maybe a straw man? Just to set the record straight *no one* said that standards are bad or that food should not be produced under correct conditions and labelled correctly. No one said HACCP is a bad thing. No one but you. However, quite a few thought that having ridiculous and unattainable definitions enshined in US government law or regulations was likely to haunt beekeepers worldwide in the long run. Moreover, some of us are concerned that governmental actions could escalate our costs or make our normal practices impossible by sweeping us in with other larger groups of producers that run more standardized and easily understood operations. I personally expressed some concern that the HACCP program as it may come to be applied or interpreted in Canada and other countries *under force of law* may have some abuses--given the unusual nature of beekeeping and honey. Our inspectors here would love to handle all packing houses the same and apply meat and milk rules to honey--just for one example. In this particular government assualt, I personally had the dubious pleasure of being the Little Dutch Boy with his finger in the dyke (the coffer dam variety). > Which neatly brings us round to food safety. I thought that this was what the whole matter was about--mistaking government edict with food safety. > One way of doing this is by ensuring that the producer has in place a > correct and auditable system of ensuring product safety. Such a system, > and there are much worse which could have been imposed, is HACCP > (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Points)... There is no question that HACCP is a good idea. Most of us know what it is and most of us have been following the principles behind it all along. We care about our customers and we care about ourselves. The whole question here is how it will eventually be enforced and to what extent government will be involved. > It is wise to break you batch size down to as low as is reasonably > achievable... The batch in question may need to be condemned, so the > smaller it is the better protected you are. Now this is an interesting argument. But it may be exactly and diametrically wrong--if we are talking *food safety* which was mentioned a few lines up as being the topic. If we are considering only lawsuits, then perhaps your argument has merit. FWIW, It has often been argued that one reason for the improvement in public nutrition and health in this era is the fact that our diet comes from *a very large sample* of the foods and sources available, diluting any possible buildup of poisons and nutritional deficiencies that might be found in any subsample. Anyhow, let's consider: Case one: A contaminant is introduced at *one* of many hive locations in modest levels. If you have small batches, this will appear as a relatively high level contamination in the one small batch -- assuming anyone can afford to run exhaustive tests on every small batch. Likely not, so unless the small batch is combined with others in packing, any consumer gets a concentrated hit of the unsuspected contaminant. If large batches are used, the contaminant is diluted and overall level and with some probability may even be below detection and harmful levels... *but* then again there is also more incentive to carefully test a larger batch... Case two: A contaminant is introduced at one hive location in *high* levels. If you have small batches, this will appear as a *very* high level contamination in one batch and be caught there -- again assuming anyone can afford to run exhaustive tests on every small batch. Any consumer eating from only such a small batch is vulnerable. If large batches are used, the level may or may not be detectable and thus the whole large batch condemned if it is. ... *but* then again there is also more incentive to test a larger batch... Case Three: Contamination occurs over the whole range of the bee operation. It will not matter how big batches are. What, interestingly enough, comes out of this is that unless foods are all tested comprehensively, you are at highest immediate risk when consuming untested honey from a small sample such as the honey from a single beehive. > What a tragedy it would be to be lazy about batching and just call your > whole years production one batch to find that there was something wrong > with some of it. It is almost an insurance policy and can result in > lower product liability insurance premiums. This is precisely the advantage, the escaping of responsibility, not food safety. No matter if a little batch of your product destroys a huge batch at the packer's, your insurance company is on the hook and (hopefully) the rest of your crop is clear once tested. Cynical, but wise. I certainly practice this batching myself. And without HACCP. > Someone also mentioned restrictions imposed by the EU causing a lack of > flexibility on behalf of honey packers. Hmmm. That must have been me, but I wasn't alking about honey at all. I was talking about paint sprayer parts even though I did not say so. My friend referred, I think to CIS as being the culprit, atho' I did not say so since I was only half listening and wasn't sure. The part I was sure about was his being sad at having to drop a good supplier who was bound up in governmental red tape. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:37:38 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey--Reply In-Reply-To: <34AE6D00.77BEEF23@norfolk.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <34AE6D00.77BEEF23@norfolk.infi.net>, "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" writes >Hi Murray. I have only one comment and one question about your post today. > > 1. Comment: watch out for those "teeth in order for it to work" in those >regulations. > > 2. What is your experience and expertise in the history of regulatory >services in the USA? > I have lived and served in Europe many years. I am well acquainted >with the way the common market functions. Believe me, "it aint the same in >the >U S of A." > I want to emphasize that I do not produce honey for commercial purposes. >I >have nothing to gain or lose from government intervention on this subject. It >just happens that honey bees are the love of my life, and I know deep inside my >heart, that the ones that are bound to get hurt with this trend are the HONEY >BEES, as if their lot need any more obstacles. >Best regards. >Dr. Rodriguez >Virginia Beach, VA Dear Dr. Rodriguez, Answers to your question (and comment) are as follows. 1. If it hasn't got teeth it will never deter those, and there are bound to be some, who would abuse the system. We have folk like that here and so must you. 2. We have dealings, both directly and indirectly, with the FDA and USDA on a regular basis, several times a year. We probably ship goods in commercial quantities into the USA on roughly a monthly basis and on a few occasions have come into conflict with certain officials. However it is also fair to say that the regulations they are enforcing are purely there to protect the food purchaser from poor quality, unsafely or insanitarily packed, or incorrectly labelled goods. Although I have on one or two occasions felt a little agrieved about restrictions I cannot say that any ruling I have been given ever went beyond the law. Our goods have been dealt with strictly, but fairly and consistently, and this is the way it should be. We adopt a courteous and friendly attitude towards them and have ALWAYS recieved polite and efficient responses. It is fair of you to point out that we are NOT in the USA, and therefore to question whether we can pass fully informed comment on the authorities or their suspected motives. We have a lot of experience of dealing with them but of course we are not on their doorstep like you, but from our dealings with your authorities, and the supportive private e-mails from the US I am getting, I am genuinely surprised at the level of bitterness emanating from some respondents. Measured scepticism is a good thing but bitterness is definitely counter productive. I have found European regulations to be more flexibly enforced, but this works both ways, with the officials sometimes taking the most obstructive possible view as well as the most helpful, making it a little difficult to know just where you stand when exporting into the various countries. US regulations tend to be a bit (sometimes only a little) less ambiguous and more consistently interpreted. We export to 20 countries and have dealings with officials in many of them, and we find your authorities no worse than most to deal with. I also fail to see why the enforcement of basic sanitary conditions on honey houses, and the UNRELATED tightening up of the use of the term 'organic' by use of an audited licensing scheme, will harm your bees. Perhaps you could enlarge on this as there must be something I am missing that leads you to that conclusion. Hope you have a nice New Year and look forward to hearing from you again. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:56:22 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Plastic Queen Excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Plastic sheet (or metal sheet) excluders work best in BOTTOM bee space hives (such as British National hives) where the top of the frames,being level with the top of the box, support the excluder.For TOP space hives framed wire excluders are best (though more expensive) Here in Edinburgh ,Scotland,we use both depending on which hive type we're using. I believe bottom space hives are also used in New Zealand-any experience of sheet excluders there? Regards Alan Riach ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:52:20 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin & Ann Christensen Subject: Employment Opportunity for '98 Crop Year MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A commercial beekeeper from Northeast Alberta, Canada asked if I would let you all know that he is looking for help for this coming season. Contact : Dave Tharle Phone or Fax: 403-826-6013 Kevin Christensen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:57:57 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Organic Honey ??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been watching "Organic Marketing " concepts since 1990. It has always been very frustrating as there was no one recognized standard to try and acheive if a bee keeper wants to produce and sell "Certified Organic " honey. I also discovered that the two state organic certification organizations recognized by the State of Hawaii to certify organic operations did not have any requirements established for honey production and so I was faced with dealing with one of the mainland USA certification companies.I talked to several and have in my files the regulation requirements from several of the companies. When I inquired about fees I was told between $2,000 and $3,000 (US)dollars for a producer and another set of fees to be a packer. I would also be responsible for transportaion costs for the inspectors.Bottom line is much confusion and high fees and uncertainty which organization's seal of approval would have the best world wide recognition. Other countries are producing and labeling honey as certified organic and selling it around the world.Some bigger US packers are doing "Certified Organic" honey and a load of US packers and producers have been labeling and selling "Organic " honey trying to market their honey. USA honey producers need to level the playing field on this marketing issue. The "Certified Organic" concept has been coming for a long time and with out direction or enforcement ability. I can see the frustration this issue will cause for producers that can not comply with the regulations and for the producers that feel that they can comply realistic standards are needed. I have looked at the huge Federal Registry posting (115 pages) and I do not know what they are proposing in total for certified organic honey. From my prospective this group should take a leadership role in this issue and speak as a group with constructive comments and changes so that this organic issue gets resolved to be as realistic as possible. I firmly believe that organic standards will be adopted by the USDA and that the beekeepers will be better served to participate with the process rather to try and tear it apart because of our collective distrust of government. I totally agree with the mistrust and this organic issue will be resolved with or without producer participation. The big packers with the help of the National Honey Board are spending big money helping well financed honey packers to attempt to market US honey in foreign countries and they want the marketing advantage of labeling certified organic and as usual big money will get it's way. Soo my segestion is that by some process this list gets a good set of definitions from the USDAthat will effect honey production and that it gets posted so that all can submit their comments during the comment period so that beekeepers can have a say in this marketing issue. Be sure the packers will let their feelings be known as they spread a little {$$} & honey around D.C. Credit should be given Washington for getting this very complicated issue on the public domain like the net. I hope the USDA will disclose as well about their intentions regarding AU. & NZ. Honolulu airport honeybee import issue and let us all know about the posting on the national news.( another issue) United our voice is stronger and we will never be united in one voice, and getting the hard rules up for conversation will be a more productive use of this " THINK TANK OF BEEKEEPERS " Great ideas and understanding comes from the comments of this group of keepers & lovers of bees. God Bless America and God Bless Honeybees and the rest of us. Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton 808-964-5401 Hawaii Time ? Hale Lamalani B & B Hawiian Honey House House of Heavenly Light Beekeepers & Honeypackers Bed & Breakfast 100 % Hawaii Honey www.hawaiihoney.com hihoney@hawaiihoney.com 27-703 A. Ka`ie`ie Rd., Papa`ikou, Hawaii 96781 " The Beehive, the Fountain of Youth and Health "+ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:36:22 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bee1Bob1 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Help- Beeswax and Honey market. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Can anybody help me? I`m doing some research for an exam and require some information on: 1. The importation of beeswax into UK/Britain and from where? 2. The world honey market. 3. The different types of Honey imported into the UK. Does anybody know of any good books or internet sites I could use. There may be an importer out there who knows the inside info! Best wishes for 1998 and a good harvest. Bob Gilbert Tamworth England ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:03:58 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollinator Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: How much time a beehive lives? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-02 14:09:24 EST, Dick Bonney (rebonney@javanet.com) writes: << Feral colonies are often said to live in one spot for many, many years without interruption. This probably happens, especially under conditions approaching ideal. However, I believe that many apparently long-lived colonies are actually not so long-lived. They die for whatever reason and before anyone notices their absence, they are replaced by a swarm. Most feral colonies are not under constant observation so our conclusions about them tend to be based on scanty information. Of course, everything is changing these days with the presence of the mites. Any truly long-lived feral colony is to be treasured. >> Very true, Dr. Bonney.... I believe this was true, even before varroa mites came on the scene. My own observations of wild colonies in both the northeast and southeast US, led me to believe that "wild" colonies would problably decline to very low numbers without replenishment from kept bees. I've seen colonies make it almost to spring, then die, to be refilled by a fresh swarm six or eight weeks later. This was not observed by the general public. The bee we have today, (without consideration of varroa) is one that fits our management for maximum productivity. We also have an fresh influx of bees/queens into northern areas each spring. If all domestic hives were removed, there would have to be a lot of natural selection to again have a stock that would survive in great numbers in the wild, particularly in the north. Perhaps it would never happen again, as many of the forage sources are gone, or very erratic compared to bygone days, and pesticides are a continuing hazard. And varroa makes it a moot point. My best guess is that a feral colony in pre-varroa South Carolina lived about 5-6 years, though the site would usually be occupied by fresh bees within a year after the colony's death. If the colony were near cotton fields (and the acreage of cotton greatly increased in recent years), there'd be a continuous knockdown of the field force through July and August. This greatly reduces winter survival, when the colony goes into winter at near starvation levels. With varroa, most feral colonies die within a year, though some may make it through winter and partway through another season. I've seen a number of mid-summer colonies in walls, etc. that are just about gone from varroa. For several years I've been trying to preserve "wild" swarms without varroa treatment. These swarms have mostly died the first season. I've had two now go through the winter, but did not survive the following summer. The last one of this year's batch died in December. Sadly, I could find no evidence of varroa, but I knew the queen was failing much earlier. Interestingly, I've never seen a wild hive with American foulbrood. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:03:56 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollinator Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Plastiv vs Queen Excluder Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-03 00:23:50 EST, paulc@silcom.com (Paul Cronshaw, D.C.) writes: << Are plastic queen excluders easier/better to use than metal ones? >> I "inheirited" about 50 of them and have given them away. I remember being told there is a right side up and a wrong side up, though I can't remember which. The bees are more reluctant to go through them than any other kind. They quickly become brittle. Because they are brittle, it is almost impossible to clean burr comb without breakage. My zinc and wire excluders clean up nice in hot water, or even a solar melter. Either will ruin plastic ones. As far as I'm concerned they are junk. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:58:57 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <18454707134364@internode.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <18454707134364@internode.net>, Allen Dick writes >> Whilst some good stuff has been written, some has also come from people >> who you can almost visualise 'foaming at the mouth' as they have written >> it. > >And here I thought I had a good imagination. Try and try as I might, I >cannot visualize even a tiny bit of slobber on the chins of my BEE-L >friends. I did notice more than a little earnestness and anxiety in >their words, but foam? Come now! OK then, what about this quotation from an earlier posting. Referring to a site as 'a urinal' is not very constructive language as far as I am concerned. (We could also have something of a culture clash here on the use of the 'foaming at the mouth' saying.) >> You can check it out in detail and download the whole mess searching the government sites using "nop" or start by going to this government urinal and work back from there.' The term 'crock of organic stuff' appered somewhere her as well. > As regards the organic issue, no-one from the mainstream organic issue has come on line to put their point of view, and possibly none are subscribers. This is their game, not mine. They are a minority grouping with strong and rigid ideals, to which they are perfectly entitled, as are you and I. I am not an organic fan and probably never will be, but they have rights, and one of them is to specify the type and nature of the food they want to eat, just like Jews, Moslems or anyone else. In the UK and other countries they have been enticed to buy products bearing 'organic' labels which were, according to their beliefs, not organic at all. They may have been just as pure as any organic item but that is just not the point. They are seeking a production regime which is, for honey, unattainable in most developed countries. The goals are not, however, unattainable globally and unless you are going to ban imports they will be able to obtain honey meeting their requirements from overseas. You question my addressing the issues in the following quote. I only put forward some input into a very one sided debate. I have, however no right to expect to influence debate in your countries. >When I sat down to write this I expected to be addressing some >substantive points, given the length and tone of your original post. >However, other than showing you are comfortable with the current level of >regulation in your jurisdiction, detailing a voluntary HACCP compliance >situation and discussing batch sizes, I can't see how you are addressing >the issues that concern the 'foamers'. > Only the organic issue was the subject of the injudicious language. HACCP is a seperate issue raised in a much more measured tone. I did not say it was a bad thing, merely extracted from discussions I had previously had with others who resented being required to implement it. As you can gather, from an initial negative reaction I am now a convert. Also no-one was taking the consumers part in this and it is essential to consider balanced evidence to reach a balanced view. I also did not say standards are bad, indeed in North America they will be among the best, but we will all be aware that there are rogue operators in every market from whom all good operators deserve protection. I quote from your message:- >What is the point of ignoring the position of other writers then arguing >at length with yourself? Who is wearing a beekeepers hat? Maybe a >straw man? Just to set the record straight *no one* said that standards >are bad or that food should not be produced under correct conditions and >labelled correctly. No one said HACCP is a bad thing. No one but you. Please now read this little bit from an earlier posting of your own. 'If this keeps you up nights, think about this: The coming of HACCP regulations are going to be a real problem.' Possibly a fact for some, but not really a statement likely to give anyone a 'feelgood factor' about HACCP, and could be interpreted as contradicting your later position. The arguments for and against regulation in some form or other, globally as well as nationally, either industry or state led, are many and require airing. Both sides need to air their views. A point was made in one posting that I am not in the USA. Absolutely true and thus in many ways this is not my argument and any input I make should righly be discounted for any strictly USA affair. But as the thread emerged it was apparent that some very polarised opinion was being voiced, and having been through it all before here, I thought our experience could possibly be helpful. I did not intend to offend anyone but obviously have, although in one case I think merely to disagree is to offend. ' >Many are less sanguine about governments and their agendas and demand >something of real value for each and every expenditure of legislative >power and taxpayer money. They seem to believe that there should actually >be a good and valid reason for each and every law and that the law or >regulation should be reasonable and legislators ought to consider all the >circumstances in which such rules might be applied. Moreover they are >aware that the presence of any regulation *implies* certain things and >leads to assumptions and possible further action, and they are thus biased >towards minimum government regulation and taxation. With this I wholeheartedly agree, but to avoid it they have first to put their own house in order. On the organic issue it will involved sitting down with that group and reaching some kind of agreement, which is then enforced by both parties. > >I personally expressed some concern that the HACCP program as it >may come to be applied or interpreted in Canada and other countries >*under force of law* may have some abuses--given the unusual nature of >beekeeping and honey. Our inspectors here would love to handle all >packing houses the same and apply meat and milk rules to honey--just for >one example. In this particular government assualt, I personally had >the dubious pleasure of being the Little Dutch Boy with his finger in the >dyke (the coffer dam variety). If you have genuine grounds to fear this then you are quite right to seek effective input. But don't throw out the system automatically. It can bring benefits if sensibly applied. >> It is wise to break you batch size down to as low as is reasonably >> achievable... The batch in question may need to be condemned, so the >> smaller it is the better protected you are. > >Now this is an interesting argument. But it may be exactly and >diametrically wrong--if we are talking *food safety* which was mentioned a >few lines up as being the topic. If we are considering only lawsuits, >then perhaps your argument has merit. FWIW, It has often been argued that >one reason for the improvement in public nutrition and health in this era >is the fact that our diet comes from *a very large sample* of the foods >and sources available, diluting any possible buildup of poisons and >nutritional deficiencies that might be found in any subsample. I would have thought lawsuits would be a pretty potent fear in North America. It certainly is for any insurer we have approached for our North America product liability cover. I disagree with you on the safety issue, WE must balance the two issues, which in any case I do not consider diametrically opposed to each other. I regard them as alike because we do not sell to large packers, we are the packer, and the producer, and we have a trade reputation to guard and by doing properly so we will keep our customers. > >Anyhow, let's consider: > >Case one: A contaminant is introduced at *one* of many hive locations in >modest levels. If you have small batches, this will appear as a relatively >high level contamination in the one small batch -- assuming anyone can >afford to run exhaustive tests on every small batch. Likely not, so >unless the small batch is combined with others in packing, any consumer >gets a concentrated hit of the unsuspected contaminant. If large batches >are used, the contaminant is diluted and overall level and with some >probability may even be below detection and harmful levels... *but* then >again there is also more incentive to carefully test a larger batch... > >Case two: A contaminant is introduced at one hive location in *high* >levels. If you have small batches, this will appear as a *very* high level >contamination in one batch and be caught there -- again assuming anyone >can afford to run exhaustive tests on every small batch. Any consumer >eating from only such a small batch is vulnerable. If large batches are >used, the level may or may not be detectable and thus the whole large >batch condemned if it is. ... *but* then again there is also more >incentive to test a larger batch... > >Case Three: Contamination occurs over the whole range of the bee >operation. It will not matter how big batches are. >This is precisely the advantage, the escaping of responsibility, not food >safety. No matter if a little batch of your product destroys a huge batch >at the packer's, your insurance company is on the hook and (hopefully) >the rest of your crop is clear once tested. Cynical, but wise. I >certainly practice this batching myself. And without HACCP. Escaping responsibility is merely a by product of good practice and in no way forms any part of our primary considerations. Batching practice is, as I said, entirely at the producers discretion, and for a variety of reasons we also started it long before HACCP even entered my vocabulary. This may be modified, and particularly with single floral source honey which is our main business, by edicts issued by the larger clients. HACCP will merely effectively document the good practices being carried on in a well run business, and only require serious changes to be made in the less well operated concern. But could you prove your methods were good in court when confronted by a zealous regulator and an eager lawyer? A good quality HACCP set of records can defend you very effectively. Fortunately we both know that we are talking about rare and highly unlikely situations here, that with luck and good practice we will never encounter in our lifetimes. > >> Someone also mentioned restrictions imposed by the EU causing a lack of >> flexibility on behalf of honey packers. > >Hmmm. That must have been me, but I wasn't alking about honey at all. I >was talking about paint sprayer parts even though I did not say so. My >friend referred, I think to CIS as being the culprit, atho' I did not say >so since I was only half listening and wasn't sure. The part I was sure >about was his being sad at having to drop a good supplier who was bound >up in governmental red tape. > Accepted >Allen Debate like this can be quite constructive, at least so long as it is carried on in a civilised manner. As you can gather I have no fear of good argument properly constructed, indeed I quite enjoy it. The subject of age and experience came up. Just for your information we operate around 1700 hives, all migratory. We have 21 employees, of whom 12 are year round. We pack over 75 tonnes of speciality honeys, of about 25 varieties, some of which are only a single drum, plus a wide variety of other foods, over 70 lines in all. We import from 12 countries. We export to around 20 countries, USA included. We do all our own export procedures and documentation. We do NOT handle organic honey. I am 42 years old and both own and run this business. I am 2nd generation in the business. I look forward to your next posting on this with interest. Kind regards murray Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:17:57 -0800 Reply-To: jkphillips@sprynet.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean and Steve Phillips Organization: University of Kansas Law School Subject: Organic honey, another approach to the question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for the sake of discussion, let's take out of the discussion the fact that these regulations being proposed by the dastardly federal government. The question still remains, should you sell noncompliant honey labeled "organic" when the purchasers of "organic" honey assume that the organic label means ALL organic inputs: no Apistan, no Terramycin, no Crisco patties, no Fumadil, no sugar syrup feed, no plastic foundation, and no bees foraging on agricultural crops which are not organically grown? This is the real issue, or at least the one I was trying to raise. Steve Phillips Perry, KS jkphillips@sprynet.com (home) phillips@at01po.wpo.state.ks.us (work) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:50:30 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > OK then, what about this quotation from an earlier posting. Referring to > a site as 'a urinal' is not very constructive language as far as I am > concerned... Oh, is *that* what you were referring to? (I thot Susan had sent you a note). Personally, I thought Andy was holding back and being pretty moderate and polite. He didn't use the words we all use in private, now did he? Did he? > ...They are a minority grouping with strong and rigid ideals, to which > they are perfectly entitled, as are you and I. I am not an organic fan > and probably never will be, but they have rights, and one of them is to > specify the type and nature of the food they want to eat, just like > Jews, Moslems or anyone else. Sorry. Ya see, I didn't realise that all those other folks had their food requirements written up as US secular law. Now that I got that, I'd hate to see the 'organic' folks left out. So, now I guess it does make perfect sense that the guys who abuse the word 'organic' (which has nothing to do with wholesome and pure) should get to have their irrational requirements -- no matter these terms cannot be met on this Earth let alone the US of A -- made into law and appear to the ignorant as being extra high quality -- and an ideal for which all mere producers should strive. > Also no-one was taking the consumers part in this and it is essential to > consider balanced evidence to reach a balanced view. I doubt that is true. You can't stay in business here without being in touch with the consumer of your products and I for one spend more time consuming than producing (I'm consuming as we speak), so I assume it goes without saying, but maybe not. I think many of us are offended at the dishonesty implicit in the whole 'organic' thing. If we really have to look at purity and safety issues, we all know there are real ones that far outrank those of the 'organic' lobby. We may not have gotten down to it here lately, but there are real concerns, such as the question as to whether some people are allergic to cane or beet sugar components and at what levels. Drug residues are always on our minds as are pesticides and whether they get into honey and pollen; the question of metals in contact with honey and the effect of mice in equipment are perrenial topics. What about polymer migration? We're not as stupid as some imply. These are the real matters that should be of concern and all the tomfoolery about how you mate your queens is a dangerous distraction. Maybe some day when we run out of problems and get down to that one it'll have greater relative importance. Andy is probably more observant, conscientious and aware than most of us and has written here before about his concerns about pollen as food for humans and his experiences as a pollen collector. As we have remind people from time to time his speech and writing tends to the picturesque, but is some of the most valuable and unpretentious on this list. I personally enjoy his humour and the whacks he takes at things. So do some of the civil servants who bear the brunt of his pressure. I've felt it too. > I also did not say standards are bad, indeed in North America they will > be among the best, but we will all be aware that there are rogue > operators in every market from whom all good operators deserve > protection. I like Mom and appple pie too. > Please now read this little bit from an earlier posting of your own. 'If > this keeps you up nights, think about this: The coming of HACCP > regulations are going to be a real problem.' Possibly a fact for some, > but not really a statement likely to give anyone a 'feelgood factor' > about HACCP, and could be interpreted as contradicting your later > position. I don't think anyone should be lulled into feeling good about any new power in the hands of any government. I has looked and continues to look like a real problem on the horizon and I have my binoculars in hand. We're getting precious little help and consultation here in advance partially because there is so little knowledge in either government or private hands here. In that regard I have a thought. You seem really happy about HACCP; maybe you'd like to post your HACCP manual for us to take a gander at so we can feel better. I'll volunteer a website if you want to email me the text. It could be up for all to see tomorrow. (Aside to the crowd: here I am talking website and I am not maintaining the one I have very well. If any of you have been trying to use the bee ads site and having problems, you are not the only one. MicroSloth revised FrontPage and for quite a while I couldn't get into my server myself to maintain it. But everything is fine now and I plan to fix it as soon as I get done arguing with Murray, probably). > On the organic issue it will involved sitting down with that group and > reaching some kind of agreement, which is then enforced by both parties. Which two of the three parties now invoved do you mean? > >> It is wise to break you batch size down to as low as is reasonably > >> achievable... > I would have thought lawsuits would be a pretty potent fear in North > America. It certainly is for any insurer we have approached for our > North America product liability cover. Frankly, I doubt any of us think about that much. How about you Andy? > I disagree with you on the safety issue, WE must balance the two issues, > which in any case I do not consider diametrically opposed to each other. I dragged the following original quote back in here since it was conveniently omitted and allowed erection of yet another straw man: You: > > It is wise to break you batch size down to as low as is reasonably achievable... The batch in question may need to be condemned, so the smaller it is the better protected you are.< < Me: >> Now this is an interesting argument. But it may be exactly and diametrically wrong--if we are talking *food safety* which was mentioned a few lines up as being the topic. If we are considering only lawsuits, then perhaps your argument has merit. FWIW, It has often been argued that one reason for the improvement in public nutrition and health in this era is the fact that our diet comes from *a very large sample* of the foods and sources available, diluting any possible buildup of poisons and nutritional deficiencies that might be found in any subsample.> > > I regard them as alike because we do not sell to large packers, we are > the packer, and the producer, and we have a trade reputation to guard > and by doing properly so we will keep our customers. None of this has directly to do with food safety. It is all about protecting your butt -- and your business. > Escaping responsibility is merely a by product of good practice and in no > way forms any part of our primary considerations. That's not the way it sounds. And you go on about defending yourself using HACCP and some motherhood statements, but I'll delete that for brevity. > Debate like this can be quite constructive, at least so long as it is > carried on in a civilised manner. As you can gather I have no fear of > good argument properly constructed, indeed I quite enjoy it. The fact had not entirely escaped me. > The subject of age and experience came up. > Just for your information we operate around 1700 hives, all migratory. We > have 21 employees, of whom 12 are year round. We pack over 75 tonnes of > speciality honeys, of about 25 varieties, some of which are only a single > drum, plus a wide variety of other foods, over 70 lines in all. We import > from 12 countries. We export to around 20 countries, USA included. We do > all our own export procedures and documentation. We do NOT handle organic > honey. I am 42 years old and both own and run this business. I am 2nd > generation in the business. Well I wasn't trying to get anything going, and maybe I shouldn't (to keep Andy's imagery) get into a pissing contest with you here since it is in such bad taste, but what the heck -- it's new year and I haven't done anything really stupid and ignorant yet, so here goes... Ya, I feel sorry for ya. I know how it is. Don't let it getcha down. If it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty small too; I only have 2,200 or so hives. A buddy down the road has 10,000 and there are about 30 guys bigger than me in Alberta alone. We can move in a moment, but usually don't, so I guess I'm not very migratory But that could change any time. (I do go out once in a while with a forklift and move them across the yard just for fun). We only have 7 people or so in the winter but I don't know for sure since I don't have to count them -- I know them all by name. We got out of specialty honies a while back, 'cause my wife is a serious painter and would rather make art than get sticky. We got tired of being the biggest Ross Rounds producer in the world (I think), and we stopped exporting a few years back, except a little now and then to our friends in the good old USA, God bless em. We hire people to do the dirty (paper)work (Gee I hate this metaphor). *All* our honey is organic - whatever that is, but we don't bother to tell anyone. I am 52 years old and I work for my wife and the bank. My kids slave alongside when they are not in the university pub or out racing catamarans in Bemuda and places like that. My great grandfather was the first I know of to keep bees in our family here in Canada and my daddy was the president of his local bee association until his untimely death. Anyhow, as you can see I'm far to modest to tell you about my accomplishments and I noticed that you are kinda shy too. Maybe some time we'll have a hagus and really get to know each other. In the meantime this is turning out to be like arguing with Jack Griffiths (or Andy for that matter). More and more quotes and more and more topics. Later. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:19:37 -0500 Reply-To: dronebee@norfolk.infi.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "\\Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Organization: Independent non-profit research Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All: I became involved in this thread because of first hand knowledge of federal regulatory programs in the USA, I believe that it may not be in the best interest to honey bees to apply regulatory inspections to beekeeping and honey production. I believe that I should clarify my position a bit further for the sake of understanding. I am not opposed to "organic" anything. For those of you who have read my files on the use of MO, you'll notice that one of the most compelling reasons for using MO was my eagerness to find an acaricide which was bee and nature friendly. Perhaps I have committed the sin of being too brief in an effort to be kind to my fellow subscribers. Now I realize, that I may have saved having to repeat my postings on the same subject. Fact. I said that some of you "may not know what you are talking about" and used a very well known Spanish proverb to emphasize my point. My apologies, I should have been precise and to the point. I am a fourth generation beekeeper and have worked with honey bees ever since I was old enough to walk and carry a smoker. Long enough! I am amazed at anyone who thinks that they can produce organic honey in an unrestricted environment. It is just simply impossible. Bees have the habit of getting into the most unpredictable places and with today's environmental conditions, I can not imagine how beekeepers are going to be able to produce "organic" labeled honey to meet the stringencies of regulatory inspection. As part of regulatory inspection, there is such a requirement as "truth in labeling." I have not read the proposed legislation; hence I can not make an intelligent comment about its contents. However, I would assume that to meet the requirement for "organic" honey should be free of anything that is not organic, or else it would be mislabeled and not pass the type of federal inspection that I used to know during my tenure in inspection services. If the standards for "wholesomeness" and for "truth in labeling" have not changed, I sincerely think that there will be far and few beekeepers that will own restricted and isolated facilities to produce "organic" labeled honey in accordance with federal standards of inspection. Again, please remember that I am saying if similar standards are written into the law as those utilized for such food products as meat and poultry. Conclusion: Should the "organic" law be similar to those I have mentioned, and should it be applied as it is applied to meat and poultry, there wont be any organic honey! It is just not possible to produce cost effective "organic" honey and federal inspectors will have a field day. A lot of beekeepers will disappear just like so many poultry and meat producers have disappeared from our markets in the last 50 years. With today's mite's menace and disappearance of the keepers the bees, is it possible that honey bees continue to thrive? I doubt it. We, those who know about honey bees, and yes I consider myself as knowing something about honey bees, have to be very leery of introduction of factors, however well intended, that might contribute to enhance the decline of our beloved honey bees. I hope that this explanation has clarified the reason for my fears. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez Virginia Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:21:16 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: wax worms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all!! well i have a question, and NO it's not about organic honey (smile) i have always been told that wax worms can't survive cold (freezing weather 10-20 deg.) well i was cleaning out some supers and hive bodies, when i noticed some wax worms in the wax, how is this possible?? here in KY it got very cold, really cold for a couple of weeks, how did the wax worms survive???? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: wax worms Comments: To: gmc@vci.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've had lesser wax moth larvae live through the winter here in Vermont. Or were they still eggs? beeman wrote: > Hi all!! well i have a question, and NO it's not about organic honey > (smile) i have always been told that wax worms can't survive cold > (freezing weather 10-20 deg.) well i was cleaning out some supers and > hive bodies, when i noticed some wax worms in the wax, how is this > possible?? here in KY it got very cold, really cold for a couple of > weeks, how did the wax worms survive???? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:12:24 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moriarty Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 2 Jan 1998 to 3 Jan 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Where are the organic standards posted? when I followed the url given earlier, I got an error message... Aloha, mike moriarty \\\|/// \\~~ ~~// (/ @ @ /) +--oOOO----------(_)--------------+ | Michael Moriarty | | P.O. Box 1102 | | Kapaau, Hawaii 96755 | | 808-889-5809 | +--------------------------oOOO---+ |___|___| | | | | oooO Oooo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:10:16 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Andy Nachbaur (by way of Andy Nachbaur )" Subject: NOP Proposed Rule Home Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi All Bee Keepers and Friends,

The "ORGANIC" honey tread is really great, pro and con. Now is the time to step forward into it and take some time to read some or all of the 34 pages of comments that have been received to the end of the year on the NOP(e) rule. Most of you could and should before the comment period ends make your own comments on the "organic honey" part of this proposed rule. What I have read here in the Bee-List is as good or much better then most of the comments made so far, as I have not finished reading them all, its hard enough to keep up with the comments here.<G>

All can comment, you do not have to be a US citizen, it is not a vote, only part of the rule making procedure.

ttul, the OLd Drone

Go here to find the comments and more:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/
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========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:42:22 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: wax worms Comments: To: gmc@vci.net In-Reply-To: <34AF002B.8C709A8@vci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:21 PM 1/3/98 -0600, beeman wrote: >Hi all!! well i have a question, and NO it's not about organic honey >(smile) i have always been told that wax worms can't survive cold >(freezing weather 10-20 deg.) well i was cleaning out some supers and >hive bodies, when i noticed some wax worms in the wax, how is this >possible?? here in KY it got very cold, really cold for a couple of >weeks, how did the wax worms survive???? They may be close to death and just have not finished that process yet, or may have just slowed way down, or may have generated enough heat to survive a few weeks of cold by eating pollen and other things found in your combs which can generate a lot of heat in itself. Normally in areas that get cold enough, such as Colorado, the greater wax moth will be killed off in a few years in total. The first year a few will hatch out from eggs but in a year or two they will disappear. The lesser wax moth can survive as eggs and come back strong in the cold winters. In areas that have the greater wax moth the lesser soon takes the back seat as the greater may control them. The old rule that big fish eat little fish in action, as the greater worms, which are bigger eat the little guys and maybe the eggs too. So few California beekeepers have a problem with the lesser wax worm in their bee combs. Now if you collect lots of pollen to make bee diets the picture can change and you can build up some populations of several other moths that are close to the lesser wax moth if not the same, such as the Indian Head Meal Moth or whatever its called. But you can also build up some very interesting micro wasp parasites that will give some good control on both moths. If beekeepers who collect pollen see these "no see em type" micro wasps they should collect a sample for their local state bug collector and could get their name on one as some have not been identified.. Just make sure they know "who" collected it or someone else's name make get one it. Anyway as one who has transport these moths between two different clime's and reared millions of un-named wasp parasites it has always amazed me to watch the natural population curve on them. Kind of it the same class of magic as the disappearing Rocky Mountain Bee Glue. ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 21:39:06 +1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: How much time a beehive lives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Carlos Aparicio asks: > The question is: How much time lives a bee colony? We have a very large feral population on Kangaroo Island as the progeny of the Ligurian queens introduced in 1881 was encouraged to swarm frequently. Without this feral population the preservation of the pure Ligurian gene would be problematic, with only 1100 registered hives on the Island. Beekeepers rely on being able to mate queens to unrelated drones by moving to a separate mating apiary. In areas where there are unreliable nectar and pollen sources it is notable that bees become inbred due to the high mortality rate of feral colonies. Swarms will always select sites previously occupied by bees, even if only briefly. Thus, many tree trunks, branches and cavities are occupied in Spring only to have the colonies die as the season proceeds. Research into feral bee impact is being carried out by Dr. David Paton of the Adelaide University. Many feral hives are monitored and the mortality rate noted. Some years back it was estimated that honey bees on Kangaroo Island were colonizing 1 percent of tree hollows required for nesting birds per season. However at the peak of the previous El Nino drought cycle a nosema outbreak reduced both feral and commercial hives by up to 50 per cent and it is now reported that nesting birds are using the spaces previously occupied by bees. Eucalypts flower on a cycle varying from annually to 20 years or so. Without a reliable nectar/pollen source for the majority of the year, many hives simply die of starvation. Garth pointed out that continuously used comb would become too dark and confined for health. Many hives will die through natural attrition, with subsequent break down of comb by wax moth (this can occur within 3 weeks in summer) and subsequent rebuilding by a newly arrived swarm in spring so that the colony appears to have a continuous life. There are too many variables to whether a hive prospers or not to make calculating a possible maximum hive life a useful exercise. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island j.h. & e. mcadam Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: NOP Proposed Rule Home Page In-Reply-To: <199801040610.WAA16067@mail.thegrid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Now is the time to step forward into it and take some time to read some > or all of the 34 pages of comments that have been received to the end of > the year on the NOP(e) rule. Arghhh. I did spend some time there and you are right in your analogy. Seems a (the?) major topic of interest in the comments section is sewage sludge. Anyhow, I find it pretty depressing reading. I know the motives behind the whole thing are probably okay, but I heard somewhere about the road to hell... What with genetic engineering, irradiation, animal handling, and paranoia about large food interests being big concerns to consumers and trying to define synthetic and biodegradable in meaningful terms being a tough nut for the wordsmiths, the thing looks like a real tar baby. Lawyers will have *a lot* of fun with this one and I doubt anyone will eat any better on account of it.. I found the comments site format very awkward to read. There is no 'next' button, so each comment has to be loaded individually -- a gruelling task that discourages browsing for nuggets. Did I leave any comments? Nop(e) I didn't. Where do you start? I guess there are so many issues that trying to combine them in one catch-all category -- organic -- is ludicrous. There are so many unrelated and sometimes opposing ideas involved. I truly feel sorry for anyone who gets tangled in it. I fail to see the need for a second parallel system of government mandated food grading and am concerned that it will lead to confusion and an actual lowering of standards. I think that the matter can be dealt with best by defining clearly the meaning of a galaxy words allowed on food labels and leave it at that. Obviously 'organic' has had it. It raises too many divergent expectations. This government blessing looks more like last rites than a baptism. Allen --- BEE-L can be searched for items in a particular date range. The following message (To the LISTSERVER-not BEE-L) retrieves only the messages since January 1997. SEARCH formic acid IN bee-l SINCE Jan 1997 The capitals indicate commands which the LISTSERVER responds to and the small letters indicate the things that you specify. (Courtey Don Aitken) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:11:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rory Stenerson <71762.1664@compuserve.com> Subject: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Greetings, I'm witnessing something kinda new for me. For the last couple of days It's been quite mild here in central Pennsylvania (50-55F) and today my b= ees are = concentrating their on our back yard bird feeder. It's a Droll Yankee mo= del with = another feeder hanging below it. Both feeders have black oil sunflower s= eeds and = cracked corn. = The bees are working it like they've found a new source of nectar or poll= en. Any ideas what they're getting from this? I thought the only thing bees = worked was water, pollen, nectar, and tree resins (for propolice). Thank you, and I hope everyone's bees are surviing well **************************************************************** * I believe that the phenomena of nature * * is the expression of infinite intelligence. * * I express my belief that all forms of life * * are manifestations of spirit * * and thus, we are all children of God, Peace * **************************************************************** * Rory Stenerson _ * * Sectry/Treas - Centre County Beekeepers Assoc. _( )_ ^ * * V.P. - State College Underground Maltsters ( - ) * * State College, PA U.S.A. ^ ( - ^ ) ^ * * E-mail: 71762.1664@compuserve.com ( - _ - ) * * ( - +++ ) * ****************************************************************= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:33:37 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They're after the corn dust. They must use it like pollen. This can be a problem if you have a dairy farm nearby your beeyard. Bees love high moisture corn(agbags), sawdust, etc. Work it in "swarms" acording to the farmers. Like manure in the gutters too. Never really sting anyone, but the farmers freak! Have to show them they are harmless. I usually kick at the corn and bees. The bees fly up, and back down when I'm done. No problem. Farmer usually gets the idea, and feels a whole lot better. Rory Stenerson wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm witnessing something kinda new for me. For the last couple of days > It's been quite mild here in central Pennsylvania (50-55F) and today my bees are > concentrating their on our back yard bird feeder. It's a Droll Yankee model with > another feeder hanging below it. Both feeders have black oil sunflower seeds and > cracked corn. > > The bees are working it like they've found a new source of nectar or pollen. > Any ideas what they're getting from this? I thought the only thing bees worked > was water, pollen, nectar, and tree resins (for propolice). > > Thank you, and I hope everyone's bees are surviing well > > **************************************************************** > * I believe that the phenomena of nature * > * is the expression of infinite intelligence. * > * I express my belief that all forms of life * > * are manifestations of spirit * > * and thus, we are all children of God, Peace * > **************************************************************** > * Rory Stenerson _ * > * Sectry/Treas - Centre County Beekeepers Assoc. _( )_ ^ * > * V.P. - State College Underground Maltsters ( - ) * > * State College, PA U.S.A. ^ ( - ^ ) ^ * > * E-mail: 71762.1664@compuserve.com ( - _ - ) * > * ( - +++ ) * > **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:03:26 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: "Certified Organic" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been watching "Organic Marketing " concepts since 1990. It has always been very frustrating as there was no one recognized standard to try and achieve if a bee keeper wants to produce and sell "Certified Organic " honey. I also discovered that the two state organic certification organizations recognized by the State of Hawaii to certify organic operations did not have any requirements established for honey production and so I was faced with dealing with one of the mainland USA certification companies talked to several and have in my files the regulation requirements from several of the companies. When I inquired about fees I was told between $2,000 and $3,000 (US) dollars for a producer and another set of fees to be a packer. I would also be responsible for transpiration costs for the inspectors. Bottom line is much confusion and high fees and uncertainty which organization's seal of approval would have the best world wide recognition. Other countries are producing and labeling honey as certified organic and selling it around the world. Some bigger US packers are doing "Certified Organic" honey and a load of US packers and producers have been labeling and selling "Organic " honey trying to market their honey. USA honey producers need to level the playing field on this marketing issue. The "Certified Organic" concept has been coming for a long time and with out direction or enforcement ability. I can see the frustration this issue will cause for producers that can not comply with the regulations and for the producers that feel that they can comply realistic standards are needed. I have looked at the huge Federal Registry posting (115 pages) and I do not know what they are proposing in total for certified organic honey. From my prospective this group should take a leadership role in this issue and speak as a group with constructive comments and changes so that this organic issue gets resolved to be as realistic as possible. I firmly believe that organic standards will be adopted by the USDA and that the beekeepers will be better served to participate with the process rather to try and tear it apart because of our collective distrust of government. I totally agree with the mistrust and this organic issue will be resolved with or without producer participation. The big packers with the help of the National Honey Board are spending big money helping well financed honey packers to attempt to market US honey in foreign countries and they want the marketing advantage of labeling certified organic and as usual big money will get it's way. Soo my suggestion is that by some process this list gets a good set of definitions from the USDA that will effect honey production and that it gets posted so that all can submit their comments during the comment period so that beekeepers can have a say in this marketing issue. Be sure the packers will let their feelings be known as they spread a little {$$} & honey around D.C. Credit should be given Washington for getting this very complicated issue on the public domain like the net. I hope the USDA will disclose as well about their intentions regarding AU. & NZ. Honolulu airport honeybee import issue and let us all know about the posting on the national news.( another issue) United our voice is stronger and we will never be united in one voice, and getting the hard rules up for conversation will be a more productive use of this " THINK TANK OF BEEKEEPERS " Great ideas and understanding comes from the comments of this group of keepers & lovers of bees. God Bless America and God Bless Honeybees and the rest of us. Walter Walter & Elisabeth Patton 808-964-5401 Hawaii Time ? Hale Lamalani B & B Hawaiian Honey House House of Heavenly Light Beekeepers & Honeypackers Bed & Breakfast 100 % Hawaii Honey www.hawaiihoney.com hihoney@hawaiihoney.com 27-703 A. Ka`ie`ie Rd., Papa`ikou, Hawaii 96781 " The Beehive, the Fountain of Youth and Health "+ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:11:47 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WGMiller Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What do bees like about bird feeders? Since there is nothing else available, the filed bees treat the cracked corn like pollen, and try to bring it home to their colonies. If you were to look in front of your hives, you will probably find a pile of cracked corn that the field bees brought home and the house bees promptly threw out. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:27:57 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Bees/birdfeeders naughty malt addicts Hi All I read the post about the bridfeeder foragers with interest. A while back I brewed a beer for a class competition. Our lab was contaminated with so many bacteria that the beer began to smell foul long before bottling, so I decided to name it 'Schitz' as it was a Weisenbier. It smelt like it's name. Anyhow, a bottle blew it's lid and so I placed it outside and bees began to take it away!!! They drank the Schitz. So I theorized that they must be attracted to some of the malted sugars in the bear and placed some kelogs(sp?) corflakes in water near a hive and they ate the cornflakes - high malt content. So what I would theorize has happened is that the maize in the feeder has become slightly wet, the seeds have released some of their germinnation enzymes and begun to convert starch to sugars which the bees can use, like maltose, dextrose etc. - ie malting (A bit like the proccess used to make HFCS from maize using I think oats enzymes??) Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:49:55 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 2 Jan 1998 to 3 Jan 1998/organic honey recommend reading the attachment to the proposed rules, " regulatory impact assessment", especially the section on "a pure food model" for a better understanding of the issues involved: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/rule/ria.htm also suggest the previously mentioned consumer reports study as a third party view: http://www.consumerreports.org/Special/News/Reports/9712n001.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:13:48 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Naser Ali Altayeb Subject: BeeTime MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello friends, Does the (honey) bee has a time cycle of 24h ? Does it take rest, in which form if any? What is the percentage of the working time in the bee's life span ? Naser Altayeb Kuwait ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well I guess they don't throw it all out. Maybe the chunks in cracked corn do. When they're feeding on high moisture corn from agbags, they take it home like pollen, place it in the combs like pollen, so I assume they feed it like pollen. First time I observed this, I thought it was some early blooming tree or shrub. Catching a bee at the entrance for a taste, I noticed a musty, moldy smell. Got a call that night from farmer. Sure enough, there were the bees working the corn. Same smell and color. Rolling it up in little pink/tan loads, and taking it home as fast as they possibly could. WGMiller wrote: > What do bees like about bird feeders? > > Since there is nothing else available, the filed bees treat the cracked corn > like pollen, and try to bring it home to their colonies. If you were to look > in front of your hives, you will probably find a pile of cracked corn that the > field bees brought home and the house bees promptly threw out. > > W. G. Miller > Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:56:05 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Bonney Subject: Re: BeeTime MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding a bee's daily cycle - Bees are much like other creatures in the pattern of their day. They work, sleep, and hang out. Studies have shown that they will work about 8 hours per day (assuming there is work to be done), patrol the hive looking for work to be done for about 8 hours per day, and rest or sleep for the balance of the time. Regarding this latter activity, below is an excerpt from one of my past newsletters. "Honey bees do sleep. This is something most of us rarely see. We seldom if ever open a hive at night when apparently most of the sleeping is done, and opening a hive would probably wake up any sleeping bees anyhow. But, according to the abstract of a paper from Germany entitled Sleep in Insects, by W. Kaiser, bees do sleep. Apparently there are always some bees awake and active, on the brood comb for instance. Others go to the edge of the comb or into empty cells, or sometimes to the hive floor, and take up resting postures including lying on their sides. They remain motionless for long periods during the night, though like any sleeping animals there is occasional stirring - respiratory movement, leg jerks, and antenna movement for instance. During routine hive inspections I have occasionally seen a bee in a presumably empty cell with only the tip of the abdomen showing. Taking an afternoon nap no doubt." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:46:31 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: More Korn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Vermont, we seem to have a new honey. Actually I've made some on both sides of lake Champlain. Let me start again. Here in the Champlain Valley we seem to have a new honey. Dark in color, and strong in taste. Reports of this "honey" have increasing in the last 2 or 3 years. The biggest change in agriculture here has been the increase of corn acreage in the last 2 or 3 years. Hmmm... From corn?? Here's something someone from Maine sent me recently. It' from The American Bee Journal/February, 1936. Briefly... Alfred H Pering writes of an experience of his. First he quotes Frank C. Pellet. "It's too bad that our Iowa cornfields don't yield honey. The acreage would be sufficient to feed the world." No doubt! He goes on to remember an experience of his as a boy. He was riding his bike through the cornfields in Indiada. He stopped to get some shade beneath the corn. After some time, he noticed a distinct popping sound. It reminded him of the saying - corn is growing so well you can hear it. Finally he heard a pop, and saw the crack in the corn that made the sound. Corn juice oozed from the crack. Bees sucked up the juice as it dried. Could this be our mysterious honey?? Any ideas?? Could check for pollen in the honey, but dont have the equipment needed. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:54:23 +0000 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Abandoned hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Cronshaw, D.C. wrote: > (snip) > The hives did not appear to be in too bad a shape from an exterior point of > view. 2 of the hives showed good bee activity, 2 portrayed signs of > weakness and 1 had no activity. The one with activity had died out and was > developing early waxmoth signs. > > The 4 remaining hives were honey bound. (THIRD Problem). Each had 2 > Apistan strips which in all probability were put in early Jan of this year. > (FOURTH Problem) > > When the farmer saw all the honey he naturally wanted to extract it but I > cautioned him about taking honey with the presence of the Apistan strips. > We removed the Apistan strips and disposed of according to instructions. > > IMO, I am now face with these scenarios to help this farmer: > > 1. Extract the honey, and slowly feed back to the bees. Reinsert the empty > wet combs, giving the queen more space to lay. > > 2. Add another deep super and place the honey bound frames above the brood > frames. It is a mild winter here in Santa Barbara and the Eucalyptus flow > is in full force. > > 3. Do nothing and wait until early Feb when I can perhaps order some queens > from Hawaii to make splits. My suggestion (for what it's worth, being a northern beekeeper!): 1. Bad plan. Too much work. 2. Not good either. Bees often move honey around to make room for brood, and with another free super, they just might move the apistan honey to the super. 3. Best plan, in my opinion. With lots of bees and lots of honey in the frames, you will have an excellent opportunity to make splits. I would make as many as possible. The new splits should use up the contaminated honey before putting on supers, however. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:58:58 -0500 Reply-To: beesbest@mediaone.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kathy Hough Organization: Red Maple Farm Subject: Re: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rory, I'd heard of other beekeepers noticing bees foraging their bird feeders but hadn't noticed anything myself until we started keeping chickens. We feed a ground corn mash and have a range feeder outside the coop that the bees foraged from last year (until the chickens began to forage on the bees.. ). We moved the chicken food, gave the bees their own source of chicken mash (and added some higher protein soy flour to it) closer to the hives, and all the girls were happy. Kathy Rory Stenerson wrote: Greetings, > I'm witnessing something kinda new for me. For the last couple of > days > It's been quite mild here in central Pennsylvania (50-55F) and today > my bees are > concentrating their on our back yard bird feeder. It's a Droll Yankee > model with > another feeder hanging below it. Both feeders have black oil > sunflower seeds and > cracked corn. > > The bees are working it like they've found a new source of nectar or > pollen. > Any ideas what they're getting from this? I thought the only thing > bees worked > was water, pollen, nectar, and tree resins (for propolice). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:13:50 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Hutton Organization: Amigabee computer networking for beekeepers Subject: How much time a beehive lives? CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 437 MSGID: 240:244/116 25d0e6ed REPLY: 240:44/0 d7707d52 PID: FDAPX/w 1.12a UnReg(167) BL> In a message dated 98-01-02 14:09:24 EST, Dick Bonney BL> (rebonney@javanet.com) writes: BL> << Feral colonies are often said to live in one spot for BL> many, many years BL> without interruption. BL> Of course, everything is changing these days with the presence of the BL> mites. Any truly long-lived feral colony is to be treasured. >> BL> Very true, Dr. Bonney.... I believe this was true, even before varroa BL> mites came on the scene. My own observations of wild colonies BL> in both the northeast and southeast US, led me to believe BL> that "wild" colonies would problably decline to very low BL> numbers without replenishment from kept bees. I've seen BL> colonies make it almost to spring, then die, to be refilled BL> by a fresh swarm six or eight weeks later. This was not BL> observed by the general public. Hallo all, The above statement is very true of wild colonies in Southern UK, in Kent & Sussex there were many colonies in houses behind vertical tile hangining, in roof spaces and in disused chimneys, now they are decimated by Varroa regularly dying out either in Autumn or Spring, Where Autumn losses occur the wax moth Galleria melonella and Achroe grisella move in eating away the comb near the top, thus dilodging all the honey comb which collapses down the chimney or onto the celing below, What a mess!!! The Spring losses are replaced by swarms in the Spring, for the past ten or fifteen years early Spring Swarms have absconded directly into empty hives or houses. Lifespan of feral colonies, only that of the bees, workers six weeks, queens 3 years or so, feral colonies survive continuously in building, near to my Bee Yard is a house that has had bees throughout it's known existence as reported by human occupants (now deceased 30 years).The house is 180 years old. BL> Interestingly, I've never seen a wild hive with American foulbrood. Feral colonies that get AFB or EFB normally die out and the Undertakers move in (wax moths) but not before other bees move in and rob out honey and spores!!! I have removed many feral colonies indeed that is how I became a beekeeper as a 17 year old by removing a feral colony out of a brick wall, I knew nothing of handling bees and prescious little of building construction, at 55 I know a hell of a lot about both yet I am still learning. I did not get one sting from those first bees, I knew nothing of smoke, it was probably just the repetitive hammering removing the the mortar joints from between the bricks that subdued the bees. BL> Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA BL> The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html BL> Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) BL> http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm Best regards for 1998 Peter Hutton from the Garden of England peter.hutton@btinternet.com --- * Origin: Kent Beekeeper Beenet Point (240:244/116) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:27:56 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore Subject: Time length of bee's memory I'm curious, how long will a bee remember their hive location? In late October I rearranged my hives to get more sun and less shade during the winter months. The hives were moved only about 15-20 feet. Saturday it was warm enough for a major cleansing flight. One hive by 10 AM was really busy. At that time I noticed about 50-100 bees from this hive at the old hive location looking for the entrnace that was now 15 feet to the South. Over 8 weeks and these ladies still remembered! How long will "confined" bees remember the previous hive location? Regards, Jim Moore 2 years, 4 Hives ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:43:06 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders? In-Reply-To: <34B00622.5E73E70@ne.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <34B00622.5E73E70@ne.mediaone.net>, Kathy Hough writes >Rory, >I'd heard of other beekeepers noticing bees foraging their bird feeders >but hadn't noticed anything myself until we started keeping chickens. >We feed a ground corn mash and have a range feeder outside the coop that >the bees foraged from last year (until the chickens began to forage on >the bees.. ). We moved the chicken food, gave the bees their own >source of chicken mash (and added some higher protein soy flour to it) >closer to the hives, and all the girls were happy. >Kathy > > Just a little to add to this. I read somewhere about this behaviour several years ago, bees were taking away all sorts of dusts, sawdust, flour, corn meal, even coal dust, all as if they were pollen. I have even heard of, though never witnessed, window putty being taken, possibly as a substitute propolis. I did a small experiment just out of curiosity in our small home apiary one spring several years ago, by dropping a little soya flour into some clumps of crocuses. The bees took it home with tremendous enthusiasm, so next day, instead of placing it in the flowers we just stuck half a pound or so of the stuff in upturned hive lids, although any kind of shallow box would do. They cleared up the lot in a few hours. We then did the same each morning for the next couple of weeks if the weather was fine, and it was fascinating to see these dust covered bees with their pollen baskets full to overload scuttling back and forward to the hives. As it was the same flour we used in our pollen substitute patties I reckoned it would probably do them good. However, I can't say whether it made any difference at all, as the apiary was just like all the others at first inspection, no extra brood or anything. One farm we have bees on has a small oats bruising mill for their cattle feed. It makes a lot of dust which attracts the bees in through a bird screened window and I have had calls from the farmer, who is terrified of bees, in case there was something wrong. No benefit noticed there either. An interesting little behaviour pattern. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:24:21 -0400 Reply-To: rossybee@entelchile.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rossy Castillo Subject: from the end of the world!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi : My name is Rossy Castillo and I'm queen breeder . I produced and exported package bees from Chile to Spain succesfully. I live in Olmui , a litlle village in the V Regisn of Chile, South Amirica. In my country we have few bee diseases. We have nosema,EFB and varroa. We have no other mites and nor AFB. We have no africans bees. Questions will be welcome.Nice to be in Bee-l! Rossy Castillo Casilla 76- Olmui Chile tel/fax 56-33-441009 e.mail: rossybee@entelchile.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:36:43 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... we just stuck half a pound or so of the stuff in upturned hive > lids, although any kind of shallow box would do. They cleared up the lot > in a few hours. We then did the same each morning for the next couple of > weeks if the weather was fine, and it was fascinating to see these dust > covered bees with their pollen baskets full to overload scuttling back > and forward to the hives. As it was the same flour we used in our pollen > substitute patties I reckoned it would probably do them good. See http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/unwrap.htm for some pictures of this happening. Be prepared for some slow loading, since htere are a number of large images on the age. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:36:43 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Time length of bee's memory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > At that time I noticed about 50-100 bees from this hive at the old hive > location looking for the entrnace that was now 15 feet to the South. > Over 8 weeks and these ladies still remembered! How long will > "confined" bees remember the previous hive location? Were the bees actually looking for the entrance or were they attracted by the debris on the grund where the hive had been? When there is nothing around in the way of forage, bees are *very* interested in anything with even a slight bee smell. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:11:34 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore Subject: Re: Time length of bee's memory >Were the bees actually looking for the entrance or were they attracted by >the debris on the grund where the hive had been? >When there is nothing around in the way of forage, bees are *very* >interested in anything with even a slight bee smell. They were clearly flying around the old approach flight path. There is a deadout TBH right next to this spot and the bees showed no interest. There was nothing of any obvious interest and the bees did not fly around the hive sites of the two other hives that use to be located a few feet to the south to this particular hive position. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:31:38 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Victor Kroenke Subject: Re: More Korn Comments: To: mpalmer@together.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > Here in Vermont, we seem to have a new honey. Actually I've made > some on both sides of lake Champlain. Let me start again. Here in the > Champlain Valley we seem to have a new honey. Dark in color, and strong > in taste. Reports of this "honey" have increasing in the last 2 or 3 > years. The biggest change in agriculture here has been the increase of > corn acreage in the last 2 or 3 years. Hmmm... From corn?? > I think you better look elsewhere for your sourse of dark honey. Plenty of corn around beehiveshere in the midwest and we get some very light honey crops. vic ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:32:13 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: MikeW54789 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Grey Caucasians Vs. Yugo ARS-Y-C-1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I don't know about the comparisons, but Yugo's can be very very aggresive. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:54:33 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: soyflower Comments: To: allend@internode.net In-Reply-To: <19365474638343@internode.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:36 PM 1/5/98 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: Hi Allen, >> ... we just stuck half a pound or so of the stuff in upturned hive >> lids, although any kind of shallow box would do. They cleared up the lot >> in a few hours. We then did the same each morning for the next couple of >> weeks if the weather was fine, and it was fascinating to see these dust >> covered bees with their pollen baskets full to overload scuttling back >> and forward to the hives. As it was the same flour we used in our pollen >> substitute patties I reckoned it would probably do them good. Or they wasted a lot of time and wore themselves out working? I have yet to rear a frame of brood from soyflower of any type ALONE, here in central California, but would be interested if others have without benefit of pollen or other proteins. If it can be done you should be able to do it with several pounds of bees and a queen without benefit of flight. I tried and could do very well with pollen, and yeasts alone, but nothing with soyflower. I have tried dozens of different types of proteins all that bees would at least move around including dried blood, and some high priced food additives. Only the yeasts had any value as far a brood rearing in confinement without benefit of natural pollen or flight. I can tell you that bees here will gather it like you show in your pictures, but at the same time I have seen, and at one time had pictures, of bees doing the same with dusting sulfur which no one would claim was beneficial to bees. I believe that bees will search out during the broodless cycle almost anything of the right micron size and pack it in their pollen baskets and bring it back to the hive including some not so attractive materials. I must also admit it is fun to watch bees gather soyflower and I have spend many hours doing just that and following it in the hive. http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/unwrap.htm >for some pictures of this happening. Be prepared for some slow loading, >since htere are a number of large images on the age. Worked good for me, really enjoy this type of beekeeping Internet site, good effort. ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:35:30 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Re: bees remember MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > At that time I noticed about 50-100 bees from this hive at the old hive > location looking for the entrnace that was now 15 feet to the South. > Over 8 weeks and these ladies still remembered! How long will > "confined" bees remember the previous hive location? I took an observation hive to the county fair 10 miles away. They were there for 6 days. When I brought them back home, I put them in a different location thinking they had been away long enough. The new location was about 15 feet away. The field bees (I assume) went back to the old location. About a third of the bees. I scooped them up and dumped them in front of the observation hive and most, but not all went back into the hive. I bet someone out there has more info on this or at least more stories. billy bee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:01:38 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: More Korn In-Reply-To: <34B0F247.2B427358@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 09:46 AM 1/5/98 -0500, Michael Palmer wrote: > Here in Vermont, we seem to have a new honey. Actually I've made >some on both sides of lake Champlain. Let me start again. Here in the >Champlain Valley we seem to have a new honey. Dark in color, and strong >in taste. Reports of this "honey" have increasing in the last 2 or 3 >years. The biggest change in agriculture here has been the increase of >corn acreage in the last 2 or 3 years. Hmmm... From corn?? Hi Michael, Could be honeydew from insects that have come in with the corn or do better= because of it?=20 Would have to know more to really make an educated guess, such as timing of= the flow, color of the honey, clarity of it, and of course the all= important taste test. Some extra floral and honeydews=20 collected in large enough amounts by bees to extract are very good and can= be marked for premium prices. Others do not even make good bee food. The= lowest price I ever got for any honey was for Oak honeydew, $.0775, seven= and three quarters cents per pound and I shipped it to Cuba for use as= flavoring for tobacco, I supplied or lost the containers and they paid the= freight. That was before the US embargo on trade with Cuba so it was= sometime ago. At the time the best white honey, SAGE or Orange, brought the= beekeeper .15 cents per pound and was sold in the markets for .29 cents per= pound, and we made a good living. Before my time Cuba was a big producer of much export honey which came after= the sugar cane fields were burned and cut. It was from the natural sugary= sap of the corn stalks. It was very dark because of the carbon from the= burned cane and for a few years was imported into the US and filtered to= remove the black color and sold as "Honey". The rules were changed and= today this could not be done as in the US as no filer aids are allowed= other the diatomaceous earth in filtering honey. This is not the case in= all countries and in some the honey can actually within the laws of that= country be taken apart and reassembled. Lucky for us these are not surplus= or bulk honey exporting countries but we still have had a few problems with= honey from some of their neighbors who have been know to add a little= extender to their bulk honey during processing. =20 > Any ideas?? Could check for pollen in the honey, but dont have the= equipment needed. Any kids microscope will work if you are not into the study of it for a= life's work. But remember pollen is not natural in MOST if not all honey,= (bees have a filter in their honey gut to remove any pollen that may get in= anyway), (but I am sure some will challenge this anyway), and if you start= looking you will find much more then pollen in the so called "organic,= natural or pure honey" fresh from the extractor before it is packed in= consumer containers. Most of pollen that gets into honey is put there in= the beekeepers extracting process and is not a good way to identify the= actual honey from that hive or hives as bees collect much pollen from= plants that never produce a drop of nectar. I would be surprised to find= say clover or alfalfa honey produced in the corn belt that did not contain= more corn pollen then clover or alfalfa pollen if any of that at all as= these two plants produce little pollen anyway. Some pollen looks so similar= to other pollen that only after covering it with gold dust and using the= old electron microscope can differences be found. Well enough wandering for now, please let us know if you ever find out what= kind of honey that is. ttul, the OLd Drone = =20 --=20 Click...click...click..damn, out of taglines! = = = =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:01:06 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: soyflower In-Reply-To: <199801060154.RAA06389@mail.thegrid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Or they wasted a lot of time and wore themselves out working? I have yet > to rear a frame of brood from soyflower of any type ALONE, here in > central California, but would be interested if others have without > benefit of pollen or other proteins. Yeah, I heard you loud and clear on that and also heard Mark last year. Am about to order a pallet of yeast from Spry Dry for this year's feeding. Can't decide whether to drive to California to get it or just have a truck bring it up. Guess the second approach would be much cheaper and easier, but ir is about 5 to 10 below (F) here these days and I'm getting cabin fever. Don't know when they will have the good oven working -- I guess I'll have to phone. The soy in the web picture is just to keep the bees out of the neighbours' chop bins and maybe together with incoming pollen it does some good, but I don't know. I still have almost a pallet of it and it keeps them out of trouble. aSome observant farmers get annoyed when their prize cattle won't eat from dawn to dusk 'cause the feeders are chock full of bees. How well does the yeast work for open feeding? http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/unwrap.htm > Worked good for me, really enjoy this type of beekeeping Internet site, > good effort. Thanks Andy. I had fun making it and have a bunch more pictures to put up but my new scanner just will not work (spent days on it). Gonna get a P2 with a VX board and MAKE that sucker scan. Soon. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:14:25 +0100 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Re: soyflower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > Thanks Andy. I had fun making it and have a bunch more pictures to put > up but my new scanner just will not work (spent days on it). Gonna get a > P2 with a VX board and MAKE that sucker scan. Soon. or you could just get a Mac :>) -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:31:45 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: soyflower In-Reply-To: <34B15B3C.1CDC@Birkey.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:14 PM 1/5/98 +0100, you wrote: >Allen Dick wrote: >> Thanks Andy. I had fun making it and have a bunch more pictures to put >> up but my new scanner just will not work (spent days on it). Gonna get a >> P2 with a VX board and MAKE that sucker scan. Soon. >or you could just get a Mac :>) Mac who? I would never argue with a professional, but I like Carnolian bees the best but use Italian's because the have been breed to do well on sugar for many, many generations. http://www.birkey.com Nice site! -- Click...click...click..damn, out of taglines! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:42:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollinator Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: More Korn Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit mpalmer@together.net (Michael Palmer) comments <> (snip) (and) <> I've seen honeybees suck juice from the stubble of field corn/sorghum, but doubt that it would be a significant honey source. It would be very late in the season, and would certainly not have corn pollen included. Most of the reports I've gotten from folks up your way indicate a lot of honeydew in the last couple years. Watch out.....it is terrible for wintering bees. From South Carolina Two gorgeous days in lower 70's, then today pushing awful close to 80. Bees are furiously working wild mustard, and look in very nice shape. Had a little robbing during the rainy weather earlier, and the weak ones have been culled. Started spring feeding today. One gallon each, whether they needed it or not. Boy it's good to be out amongst the bees! Been tied up inside with gift sales, holidays, and illness. Illness may have been due to bee venom withdrawal, now that I've got my minimum daily requirement, I'm good to go. BeeVenomJunkie@aol.com (Pollinator@aol.com) Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:19:17 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: soyflower In-Reply-To: <199801060154.RAA06389@mail.thegrid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <199801060154.RAA06389@mail.thegrid.net>, Andy Nachbaur writes >At 12:36 PM 1/5/98 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: > > >>> ... we just stuck half a pound or so of the stuff in upturned hive >>> lids, although any kind of shallow box would do. They cleared up the lot >>> in a few hours. We then did the same each morning for the next couple of >>> weeks if the weather was fine, and it was fascinating to see these dust >>> covered bees with their pollen baskets full to overload scuttling back >>> and forward to the hives. As it was the same flour we used in our pollen >>> substitute patties I reckoned it would probably do them good. > >Or they wasted a lot of time and wore themselves out working? I have yet to >rear a frame of brood from soyflower of any type ALONE, here in central >California, but would be interested if others have without benefit of pollen or >other proteins. If it can be done you should be able to do it with several >pounds of bees and a queen without benefit of flight. I tried and could do very >well with pollen, and yeasts alone, but nothing with soyflower. I have tried >dozens of different types of proteins all that bees would at least move around >including dried blood, and some high priced food additives. Only the yeasts had >any value as far a brood rearing in confinement without benefit of natural >pollen or flight. I know what you mean about possibly wearing themselves out and the same thought crossed my mind at the time. They were, however, only going some 50 to 100 feet from the hives for this stuff. But much in line with your experience, and as mentioned later in my first posting on this, we could see no evidence that it did them any good at all, and it was only the small home apiary we did it at, largely out of curiosity. Our patties themselves contained soya flour, skimmed milk powder, brewers yeast, and sugar syrup or thinned honey, which as far as I can see is a pretty standard combination. They were a lot of work to make up and apply and we no longer do it. Our spring build up does not seem to be any slower for dropping the practice. Before we abandoned the patties we did some trials by only giving it to half the hives in the site, and could see very little difference, certainly not enough to justify the time and effort, between the hives with and without patties. However, agricultural patterns had changed, with the advent of rape (canola) in our area in the early 1980's bringing liberal amounts of pollen early in the year, so perhaps the need for patties had receded. Willows are also more plentiful today than in years gone by which may be even more significant than the rape as it brings in abundant pollen on good days from March onwards. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:56:01 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Drutchas Subject: Re: More Korn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Victor Kroenke wrote: > > Michael Palmer wrote: > > > Here in Vermont, we seem to have a new honey. Actually I've made > > some on both sides of lake Champlain. Let me start again. Here in the > > Champlain Valley we seem to have a new honey. Dark in color, and strong > > in taste. Reports of this "honey" have increasing in the last 2 or 3 > > years. The biggest change in agriculture here has been the increase of > > corn acreage in the last 2 or 3 years. Hmmm... From corn?? > > > > I think you better look elsewhere for your sourse of dark honey. Plenty of > corn around beehiveshere in the midwest and we get some very light honey > crops. > > vicThis dark strong tasting honey is also being found in Maine from what I understand, maybe a new variety of corn, maybe a new pest on the corn in the northeast or maybe it's not corn but it tastes corny to me. I made a full super of this stuff per hive during the month of August. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:27:51 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Organic Honey? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I wonder based on what has been proposed so far what the estimated price per pound organic honey will fetch. As a hobby beekeeper who manages to break even I have no desire to slap an organic label on my jars. I extract cold, feed what is stuck on the combs back to the bees and don't blend my honey. All is labeled wildflower- the differences being spring ,midsummer and fall and my customers pick what they like. I have been getting 4-5 a pint and $8 a qt with no hassle and no claims other than it is the best I and my bees can do. IMO not heating makes a world of difference in flavor. Any guesses as to prices for organic honey and production amounts? I don't think it will make any difference here, most folks will take local honey over organic from elsewhere. To think I wanted two hives for my garden and now have twenty five- a dangerous hobby indeed! Tom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:45:51 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pollinator Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: More Korn Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-06 08:09:11 EST, Michael Palmer wrote: > > Here in Vermont, we seem to have a new honey. Actually I've made > some on both sides of lake Champlain. Let me start again. Here in the > Champlain Valley we seem to have a new honey. Dark in color, and strong > in taste. Reports of this "honey" have increasing in the last 2 or 3 > years. The biggest change in agriculture here has been the increase of > corn acreage in the last 2 or 3 years. Hmmm... From corn?? Still real skeptical about the "corn." Another possibility comes to mind. An invasive weed, japanese bamboo is common in Pennsylvania and central New York, along the river flood plains, and I wonder if it has reached your area. It is not a bamboo really, though the stem is jointed. It looks like a giant wild buckwheat, which is actually is. It blooms in August, and makes a dark, mellow, delicious honey, sort of a mild buckwheat. Does it have a greenish tint when extracted? Lousy taste? Purple loosestrife? Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: More Korn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The dark honey could well be from "Japanese Bamboo," which is apparently becoming more prominent in this part of NY over the past several years. The honey looks something like chocolate syrup, quite brown in color, and has a medium-to-strong taste, not bad, to some, a bit malty. Season before last we got super after super of this stuff. Like buckwheat it will darken up a lot of honey if mixed in. In fact, many people have thought for certain it was buckwheat, until they tasted it. The plant is also known (perhaps more correctly) as knotweed, or smartweed, and there are various spp. It has very broad leaves and wispy white flower heads. It yields from end of July through Sept. Anyway, this is my hunch. The "corn-honey" possibilty is interesting, too, though! Regards, Joel Govostes Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:24:01 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Corn Honey Hi All On the topic of corn honey, bees do gather a not so good honeydew of corn. One needs a bit of wind damage or hail damage especially to get a good flow as well as a soil water content that is vaguely decent - ie no honey during el ninoid years. In our central Freestate province I have heard of farmers producing honey of maize, which really confused me for a while until some one explained it was actually honeydew. A few of the larger beekeepers I have heard of in the north of SA actually stop the hives over for a while in the maize fields - what is maize pollen like? any good? Most monocot pollen is useless but maybe there is something in the practice? Here in SA there is also a reasonable amount of bland honey produced of sugarcane - once again it is honeydew and relies on mechanical damage to plants or damage by aphids (recently a virus has been cloned into the plants which kills the aphids so should imagine that will also dry up). In the Eastern Highlands of Zimbabwe a particularily disgusting honey /honeydew is gathered of the needles of pine trees which are infested with a biological control aphid. This honey tastes as though it has been cut with turpentine!! Keep well Garth--- Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:51:48 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: More Korn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, I'm real skeptical about corn too. I'm familiar with the plant, Japanese Bamboo. Lot's of it on Cape Cod where much of my family lives. I have been seeing it around here, but it doesn't seem like there's enough of it. Bloom time is right though. Color too. Not Purple Loosestrife. I know that one. Pollinator wrote: > In a message dated 98-01-06 08:09:11 EST, Michael Palmer wrote: > > > > Here in Vermont, we seem to have a new honey. Actually I've made > > some on both sides of lake Champlain. Let me start again. Here in the > > Champlain Valley we seem to have a new honey. Dark in color, and strong > > in taste. Reports of this "honey" have increasing in the last 2 or 3 > > years. The biggest change in agriculture here has been the increase of > > corn acreage in the last 2 or 3 years. Hmmm... From corn?? > > Still real skeptical about the "corn." Another possibility comes to mind. > > An invasive weed, japanese bamboo is common in Pennsylvania and central New > York, along the river flood plains, and I wonder if it has reached your area. > It is not a bamboo really, though the stem is jointed. It looks like a giant > wild buckwheat, which is actually is. It blooms in August, and makes a dark, > mellow, delicious honey, sort of a mild buckwheat. > > Does it have a greenish tint when extracted? Lousy taste? Purple > loosestrife? > > Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA > The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html > > Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) > http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:57:09 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: soyflower In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... But much in line with your experience, and as mentioned later in my > first posting on this, we could see no evidence that it did them any > good at all, and it was only the small home apiary we did it at, > largely out of curiosity. Our patties themselves contained soya flour, > skimmed milk powder, brewers yeast, and sugar syrup or thinned honey, > which as far as I can see is a pretty standard combination. There has been quite a bit here about pollen substitutes and supplements over time (search BEE-L "pollen" or "supplement" or "substitute" or "soy" or a combination thereof) and the question of the efficacy of soy flour as a bee feed has come under fire. I really don't know about the rest of the components you mention, but I do recall milk having been panned for lactose content. > They were a lot of work to make up and apply and we no longer do it. Our > spring build up does not seem to be any slower for dropping the > practice. Before we abandoned the patties we did some trials by only > giving it to half the hives in the site, and could see very little > difference, certainly not enough to justify the time and effort, between > the hives with and without patties. We did some tests about 18 years ago for a fella with a "secret" miracle formula that involved fish meal. We used it on every other hive. The result: it drove the bees into neighbouring hives and the ones with the substitute dwindled. I imagine in half yard / half yard tests that there is less likelihood of some such factor entering, but things like that are possible It is really hard to get good controls, but a 'gut feeling ' is what most of us go by. I suspect that some years the supplemental feeding pays off more than others. If you have heavy brood rearing start and then there is some confinement, perhaps -- assuming the bees will eat the stuff. In the past I've claimed that feeding substitute just gives a short burst of buildup then a crash -- resulting in no benefit, but this last year, we used a formula with a lot of yeast and some soy together with way more sugar than usual and my son swears it works. Some of the yards that did not eat their ration due to no pollen and not enuff sugar were noticably behind and he says the bees were smaller too. (see postings last spring). In case I never did clear up the question of bees that are wrapped vs bees that are unwrapped and the food consumption, we ultimately concluded that the patties in several batches were not attractive (they were high in yeast with no pollen) and thus ignored, and that the state of wrapping was not the culprit. (Sorry folks, but now you have it). This brings me to a major reason for feeding and the reason for our intent to feed protein in the fall too when we can get our act together, and that is the question of the nutritional status of the individual bees and their ability to withstand viruses, mites, and the weather. Common sense says that a well fed individual will stand up better. I continue to believe this even if in vertibrate animal tests, animals on a restricted food intake always outlive those with full rations. Wheast(r) was a bee feed product that caused no controversy whatsoever to my ken. Every beekeeper agreed it was good stuff (hehehe... maybe Andy can be the first to disagree) but years ago it was discontinued. The concensus here and in phone calls I've made following up is that brewers yeast is the major component in any working formula and that soy is of doubtfull value -- especially by itself. I'd really love to get some more chat going on this, since it is such a central idea for maximizing bee buildup in this day of expensive bees. C'mon you lurkers -- give it up and say what you know. No keeping secrets, okay? Thanks for sharing. Allen --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:02:39 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rory Stenerson Subject: Winter Bees & Birdfeeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thank you Michael, W.G., Kathy, Murray, Allen, and Andy for your response= s. Since I'm a homebrewer I really tended to like Garth's response about th= e corn partialing malting since it may have gotten wet, germinated, etc. This is a great list, and you folks have proved it. Take care, **************************************************************** * Rory Stenerson _ * * Sectry/Treas - Centre County Beekeepers Assoc. _( )_ ^ * * V.P. - State College Underground Maltsters ( - ) * * Treas - C-NET/7 Gov/Education Access Channel ^ ( - ^ ) ^ * * State College, PA U.S.A. ( - _ - ) * * E-mail: GliderPilot@compuserve.com ( - +++ ) * **************************************************************** * I believe that the phenomena of nature * * is the expression of infinite intelligence. * * I express my belief that all forms of life * * are manifestations of spirit * * and thus, we are all children of God, Peace * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:30:41 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: soyflower Comments: To: allend@internode.net In-Reply-To: <15565871840918@internode.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:57 AM 1/6/98 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: Hi Allen and All! >In the past I've claimed that feeding substitute just gives a short burst >of buildup then a crash -- resulting in no benefit, but this last year, we Yes, in fact feeding can cause a early dramatic reduction of the total populations in the bee hive. Once feeding is started it must continue until the bees can bring in enough natural pollen to maintain the brood. Feeding protein to bees is labor and material sensitive and once a good queen gets going the hive can consume two or more pounds per week. To work they must never be allowed to run out of food. A good gage of any diet and feeding program is the rearing of drones. When all things are right the bees will rear drones and this can be done without the benefit of flight if the diet is right. The down side is that this extra activity will increase the number of queens that fail, and of course any that can not be replaced for what ever reason will result in a lost hive. >Wheast(r) was a bee feed product that caused no controversy whatsoever to >my ken. Every beekeeper agreed it was good stuff (hehehe... maybe Andy >can be the first to disagree) but years ago it was discontinued. I have never found anything better the Wheast, including bee collected pollen. The problem here is the Wheast that did the best was a by-product of the forest industry and was made by one company that closed or moved it Wheast making activities off shore. Wheast is still available and is made from corn waste products. I have no idea if it is as good for bee diets as the old plywood waste wheast. I can tell you from an experience I had with the old stuff that it is active, alive, as I had colonies start on the plywood floor of the truck that I used to take the diet out to the bee yards and they fed on the wood until nothing was left and the plywood had to be replaced. DADANT'S at Fresno is the best first source of information for the availability of the products needed to make one's own bee diets. They also will be happy to sell you the soy diets ready to feed if that what beekeepers want. I will try to post the latest, greatest, formulas in use by the commercial beekeepers here in the near future. ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:53:28 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Feeding: What and When? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To feed or not to feed, and what to feed - that is the question. As far as what to feed, I trap pollen in the summer to feed in the late winter/ early spring, mixed with BeePro (from Mann Lake) and 1:1 sugar syrup. The more pollen the better - I shoot for about 25:75 pollen to BeePro. Obviously I don't do this on a large scale. I don't know the formula for BeePro but s'pect it's a soy/yeast mixture based on sight and smell. As far as "when" goes, as in all beekeeping issues the answer is, "Depends on where you are". In the upstate New York areas, Roger Morse says feeding is not necessary. Rationale being that the ideal time for feeding coincides with the time that abundant food is (usually) readily available to foargers and feeding is an unnecessary expense. In the years that I have fed my bees to stimulate early build up I got plenty of swarms. Last year I did early stimulative feeding and made ample splits to thwart the swarms. So one must ask, "What is the goal of feeding?". For Allen it's puttin' on the fall fat for over wintering. I had never considered this, to me (and in most texts) the goal was always early spring build up. In these parts early spring is mid to late winter so as Dr. Morse states, spring feeding isn't really necessary. The best analysis of stimulative spring feeding I have found is in _Swarming:_Its_Control_and_Prevention_ by L.E. Snelgrove. In that book he maps bee development to an area's honey flow calendar to determine the 'ideal' time for stimulative spring feeding. If the goal is to maximize honey production, then you want to stimulate brood rearing in time to allow the addition brood to become foragers to coincide with the peak honey flow, or approximately 6 to 8 weeks prior to the peak flow in your area. It's all in the timing! In these parts that period is about April 1, which is also the start of peak spring blossom awakening. Snelgrove bears out Morse! So my knowledge and experience for these parts (unless increase is your goal) is feeding is not necessary. Your results may vary. Guess this is a long winded way to recommend reading Snelgrove. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:16:15 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Anthony M Jadczak Subject: korn MIME-Version: 1.0 Several beekeepers in Maine report corn honey production, they say it tastes like corn but I thought it tasted like honeydew with a molasses-like flavor. I have guessed that it is probably honeydew collected from aphids feeding on corn but who knows, the old Gleanings article may be correct in some years at some locations. It (korn?) was prevalent in 1996-97 which were both dry years with poor clover flows and with high aphid populations especially in the white pine. In central Maine, bamboo doesn't bloom until early September. The "korn" honey is produced during the later part of July & August. One of us had better take a walk out into a corn field when this dark honey starts coming in next summer a pull a few honey stomachs from the visiting bees. In 97 a dairy farmer told me that the bees were thick in his corn. I told him they were there for the pollen, maybe I was wrong. Also, last summer the bees worked smooth bedstraw (Galium mallugo) which I have never observed, anyone know if this plant produces honey? It was a poor honey year for most of Maine, perhaps the bees were desperate. Is there a method to differentiate honeydew honey from honey derived from nectar? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:35:31 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Feeding: What and When? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I only wish April would allow the bees to gather all that food from Morse's abundant food sources. More often than not, it seems, they are held back by cold rainy weather and run out of pollen. Brood rearing stops real fast just when you don't want it to. They do love that Bee-Pro. Mike Aaron Morris wrote: > To feed or not to feed, and what to feed - that is the question. As far > as what to feed, I trap pollen in the summer to feed in the late winter/ > early spring, mixed with BeePro (from Mann Lake) and 1:1 sugar syrup. > The more pollen the better - I shoot for about 25:75 pollen to BeePro. > Obviously I don't do this on a large scale. I don't know the formula > for BeePro but s'pect it's a soy/yeast mixture based on sight and smell. > > As far as "when" goes, as in all beekeeping issues the answer is, > "Depends on where you are". In the upstate New York areas, Roger Morse > says feeding is not necessary. Rationale being that the ideal time for > feeding coincides with the time that abundant food is (usually) readily > available to foargers and feeding is an unnecessary expense. In the > years that I have fed my bees to stimulate early build up I got plenty > of swarms. Last year I did early stimulative feeding and made ample > splits to thwart the swarms. > > So one must ask, "What is the goal of feeding?". For Allen it's puttin' > on the fall fat for over wintering. I had never considered this, to me > (and in most texts) the goal was always early spring build up. In these > parts early spring is mid to late winter so as Dr. Morse states, spring > feeding isn't really necessary. The best analysis of stimulative spring > feeding I have found is in _Swarming:_Its_Control_and_Prevention_ by > L.E. Snelgrove. In that book he maps bee development to an area's honey > flow calendar to determine the 'ideal' time for stimulative spring > feeding. If the goal is to maximize honey production, then you want to > stimulate brood rearing in time to allow the addition brood to become > foragers to coincide with the peak honey flow, or approximately 6 to 8 > weeks prior to the peak flow in your area. It's all in the timing! > In these parts that period is about April 1, which is also the start > of peak spring blossom awakening. Snelgrove bears out Morse! So my > knowledge and experience for these parts (unless increase is your goal) > is feeding is not necessary. Your results may vary. > > Guess this is a long winded way to recommend reading Snelgrove. > > Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:31:57 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Frank & Phronsie Humphrey Subject: Re: Time length of bee's memory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim I have never tried this but some old-time beekeepers have told me that if bees are closed up in their hives for 4 or 5 days they have to reorient and can be moved prior to reopening the hive. Frank & Phronsie Humphrey beekeepr@cdc.net -----Original Message----- From: Jim Moore To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 11:34 AM Subject: Time length of bee's memory > I'm curious, how long will a bee remember their hive location? In late >October I rearranged my hives to get more sun and less shade during the winter >months. The hives were moved only about 15-20 feet. Saturday it was warm enough for >a major cleansing flight. One hive by 10 AM was really busy. At that time I noticed >about 50-100 bees from this hive at the old hive location looking for the entrnace >that was now 15 feet to the South. Over 8 weeks and these ladies still remembered! > > How long will "confined" bees remember the previous hive location? > > Regards, > > Jim Moore > 2 years, 4 Hives > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:36:57 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Re: UNcapping Tank Hi Paul and Y'all; On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:59:25 -0800 "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." writes: >In Brushy Mountain Bee Farm's catalog there is an Uncapping Tank which >is a one piece tub and uses a metal bound queen excluder. I would recommend the similar version available from Dadant & Sons. The major difference is the Dadant model is a two piece unit separated by a wooden bound queen excluder (with the wood frame removed). The BIG advantage is after the cappings have drained you can lift off this section and move the lid to the lower honey holding tank. Another plus is that after use and cleaning the tanks neatly stack inside each other to cut storage space in half. I have read all the plastic excluder comments and am sure you get the idea! Rick Leber, Beekeeping and Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, Alabama Ricks.Toy@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:26:34 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: repost/re:soyflower Comments: To: BEE-LIST@mail.thegrid.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_884143594==_" --=====================_884143594==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --=====================_884143594==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *Sorry this is a repost as the OLd Drone is changing from UNIX and a dos mail service to Winders 98 and is using the latest greatest EUDORA PRO v4 and is having problems with the page controls. It an't easy teaching an OLd Drone new tricks. BTW, I hate Bill Gates, and I hate Window's, but I Love Bee's and Beekeeper's and will even use Window's if that's what it takes. ttul Andy- At 08:57 AM 1/6/98 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: Hi Allen and All! >In the past I've claimed that feeding substitute just gives a short burst >of buildup then a crash -- resulting in no benefit, but this last year, we Yes, in fact feeding can cause a early dramatic reduction of the total populations in the bee hive. Once feeding is started it must continue until the bees can bring in enough natural pollen to maintain the brood. Feeding protein to bees is labor and material sensitive and once a good queen gets going the hive can consume two or more pounds per week. To work they must never be allowed to run out of food. A good gage of any diet and feeding program is the rearing of drones. When all things are right the bees will rear drones and this can be done without the benefit of flight if the diet is right. The down side is that this extra activity will increase the number of queens that fail, and of course any that can not be replaced for what ever reason will result in a lost hive. >Wheast(r) was a bee feed product that caused no controversy whatsoever to >my ken. Every beekeeper agreed it was good stuff (hehehe... maybe Andy >can be the first to disagree) but years ago it was discontinued. I have never found anything better the Wheast, including bee collected pollen. The problem here is the Wheast that did the best was a by-product of the forest products industry and was made by one company that closed or moved the Wheast making activities off shore. Wheast is still available and is made from corn waste products. I have no idea if it is as good for bee diets as the old plywood waste wheast. I can tell you from an experience I had with the old stuff that it is active, alive, as I had yeast colonies start on the plywood floor of the truck that I used to take the diet out to the bee yards and they fed on the ply wood until nothing was left and the plywood had to be replaced. DADANT'S at Fresno is the best first source of information for the availability of the products needed to make one's own bee diets. They also will be happy to sell you the soy diets ready to feed if that what the beekeepers want. I will try to post the latest, greatest, formulas in use by the commercial beekeepers here in the near future. ttul, the OLd Drone --=====================_884143594==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -- Click...click...click..damn, out of taglines! --=====================_884143594==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD1AB5.8D7FAF00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD1AB5.8D7FAF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetrings! can someone help this person? Polly Lisbon Tue Jan 6 00:28:27 1998 Location: Ivy's Herbal Delights, Los Angeles, CA E-mail: xlisbox@brandx.net Comments:Very creative site. I am interested in large quantities of = beeswax from a reliable, high quality source.=20 Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD1AB5.8D7FAF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetrings!
can someone = help this=20 person?
 

Polly Lisbon
Tue Jan 6 00:28:27=20 1998
Location: Ivy's Herbal Delights, Los = Angeles,=20 CA
E-mail: xlisbox@brandx.net
Comm= ents:Very=20 creative site. I am interested in large quantities of beeswax from a = reliable,=20 high quality source.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Holly-B Apiary
P.O.Box = 26
Wells,Maine=20 04090-0026
www.cybertours.com/~midnit= ebee
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD1AB5.8D7FAF00-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:16:01 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: Organic Honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our biggest producer got certified for some not all nectar sources here in Hawaii. I do not know if his whole operation or any details. And this "C.O. Honey " is marketed by Western Commerece in San Diego every day along withside of the China blends. Hope I have not killed this thread? Aloha Walter ---------- > From: BeeCrofter > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Organic Honey? > Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 3:27 AM > > I wonder based on what has been proposed so far what the estimated price > per pound organic honey will fetch. > As a hobby beekeeper who manages to break even I have no desire to slap an > organic label on my jars. > I extract cold, feed what is stuck on the combs back to the bees and don't > blend my honey. All is labeled wildflower- the differences being spring > ,midsummer and fall and my customers pick what they like. > I have been getting 4-5 a pint and $8 a qt with no hassle and no claims > other than it is the best I and my bees can do. > IMO not heating makes a world of difference in flavor. > > Any guesses as to prices for organic honey and production amounts? > I don't think it will make any difference here, most folks will take local > honey over organic from elsewhere. > > To think I wanted two hives for my garden and now have twenty five- a > dangerous hobby indeed! > > Tom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:36:52 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Drutchas Subject: Re: korn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthony M Jadczak wrote: > > Several beekeepers in Maine report corn honey production, they say it > tastes like corn but I thought it tasted like honeydew with a > molasses-like flavor. I have guessed that it is probably honeydew > collected from aphids feeding on corn but who knows, the old Gleanings > article may be correct in some years at some locations. It (korn?) > was prevalent in 1996-97 which were both dry years with poor clover > flows and with high aphid populations especially in the white pine. > In central Maine, bamboo doesn't bloom until early September. The > "korn" honey is produced during the later part of July & August. One > of us had better take a walk out into a corn field when this dark > honey starts coming in next summer a pull a few honey stomachs from > the visiting bees. In 97 a dairy farmer told me that the bees were > thick in his corn. I told him they were there for the pollen, maybe I > was wrong. Also, last summer the bees worked smooth bedstraw (Galium > mallugo) which I have never observed, anyone know if this plant > produces honey? It was a poor honey year for most of Maine, perhaps > the bees were desperate. Is there a method to differentiate honeydew > honey from honey derived from nectar?Hey Ton. I also can't go with the bamboo even though the color and taste sound right. A fellow from Australia once told me that honeydew refracts in the opposite direction of honey, I tested the dark honey and it refracted very thick 15.5 but it refracted like normal. Anyone else hear about honeydew refracting differently? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:54:25 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: The Chinese System of Using Foods to Stay Young MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01BD1ABB.5CE41560" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BD1ABB.5CE41560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings! Is this voodo,or what? A friend sent this info, just wanted to share = with others. Midnitebee(Herb) (Disclaimer)It is not intended to replace diagnosis by a health care=20 professional.Enjoy the info!! Will send more as I come across it. SYMPTOMS: Neurasthenia, hypertension, heart disease, coronary = arteriosclerosis,=20 liver, lung and eye disease, peptic ulcers, diabetes, dysentery, = constipation,=20 anemia, colitis, asthma, pulmonary tuberculosis, burns.Preparation: Mix = honey=20 in water for better absorption. Consumption of 100 to 200 grams of = honey a day=20 is considered adequate for adults (reduce dosages for children, NEVER = give to=20 INFANTS). Since honey contains large amounts of carbohydrates, large = amounts=20 consumed within a single day may interfere in the normal function of = insulin. =20 The following is a standard administration of honey for two months; 30 = to 60=20 grams of honey in the morning,(6 to 12 teaspoons) 60 to 80 grams in the = afternoon 30 to 60 grams in the eveningOne hour before meals or two = hours after=20 meals. children should be given a teaspoonful every day (about 30 = grams). Prepare 20 grams of licorice and 10 grams of orange peel. Boil the two=20 ingredients in 2 cups of water until the water is reduced to half. = Drain it and=20 add 100 grams (approx. 19 teaspoons,)of honey in water. Divide it into = three=20 dosages for one day consumption to cure stomach disease and peptic = ulcers.Steam=20 60 grams of black sesame seeds until cooked'. Then crush them into a = jelly-like=20 substance, and mix with 100 grams of honey. Pour the mixture into 1/2 = cup=20 boiling water and mix it thoroughly. Divide into two dosages and drink = it in=20 one day to cure hypertension and constipation.Classics: It is believed = that the=20 existence of honey dates back millions of years. The first Chinese = herbal=20 classic published in the third century B.C., entitled 'The Agriculture = Emperor's=20 Materia Medica', said, "A prolonged consumption of honey will strengthen = willpower, check hunger and make one feel rejuvenated and live a very = long=20 life."Another Chinese Classic written in 1861 said, "Honey has five=20 therapeutic functions--namely, to eliminate toxic heat, tone energy = deficiency,=20 detoxicate, lubricate dryness and relieve pain. Fresh honey is cool, = which is=20 why it can eliminate toxic heat in the body. Cooked honey is warm, = which is why=20 it can tone energy deficiency. Honey is sweet in flavor and neutral in = energy=20 which is why it can detoxicate. Honey is soft and moist, which is why = it can=20 lubricate dryness. Honey is mild in effects and has a tendency to slow = down=20 acute symptoms, which is why it can relieve abdominal pain and ulcers. = Another=20 important effect of honey is to integrate the effects of various = ingredients,=20 which is why honey is used in many herbal formulas. In this respect = honey is=20 very much like licorice in Chinese herbal therapy."A third Chinese = classic=20 dating from 1625 said, "Fresh honey is cold in energy and sliding in=20 action, which is why it cans cause diarrhea or treat constipation. When = a=20 person suffers from diarrhea due to energy deficiency of the large = intestine and=20 indigestion, honey should NOT be used as a remedy. When vomiting and=20 intoxication occur, honey should NOT be used as a remedy. When = abdominal=20 swelling occurs, honey should NOT be used as a remedy. When one suffers = beriberi with damp heat in the body, honey should NOT be = used.NUTRITION;honey=20 contains; 5.5 to 25 percent water, 0.08 to 1.10 percent = ash, =20 0.26 to 4.40 percent protein, 70 to 80 percent=20 carbohydrates including glucose (35 to 36 percent) = fructose (36=20 percent), and sucrose (1.71 to 2.60 percent).A Japanese=20 researcher has found over 30 kinds of carbohydrates in honey' over 20 of = them=20 are ketose, which is a carbohydrate containing ketones. FOOD VALUE:( = per 100=20 grams of honey) Calories 304 Vitamin B-1 ------5.5 to 135 = milligrams =20 Vitamin B-2-------20 milligrams Vitamin = B-6-------227-480=20 milligrams Nicotinic acid (vitamin PP), ----63-590 milligrams = =20 Vitamin B-3 (Pantothenic acid----25-125 milligrams = Biotin----6.6=20 milligrams folic Acid---3 milligrams Vitamin C----500 = to 6,500=20 milligrams Vitamin K----25 milligrams Vitamin = B-12---0.01=20 milligramsMINERAL CONTENT Honey contains 0.04 to 0.06 percent = minerals=20 on the average.Research indicates that a Kilogram of honey contains: = =20 copper---0.61 to 2.36 milligrams cobalt---0.064 to 0.2 = milligrams =20 iron---2.07 to 26.52 milligrams zinc--3.25 to 28.25 milligrams = =20 calcium---35.07 to 340.61 milligrams phosphorous---100 to 1,090=20 milligramsHoney also contains 0.1 percent organic acid = including;maliclactic formicIT CAN BE PRESERVED FOR A LONG TIME.Studies have shown that honey = contains=20 0.1 to 0.4 inhibine, which can inhibit the growth of microorganisms, but = the=20 action of inhibine is reduced on exposure to light and heat. = Nevertheless, in=20 the absence of light and when the temperature is below 25 degrees C, = inhibine in=20 honey remains active.RESEARCH; An injection of pure honey into the veins = of=20 laboratory dogs has been found to cause a decrease in blood pressure and = an=20 expansion of the coronary blood vessels. This is attributed to the = presence of=20 acetylcholine, which plays an important role in the transmission of = nerve=20 impulses. It causes a neuromuscular blockage when it is in deficiency = or in=20 excess. When blood pressure is too low, honey can raise it to normal = levels.=20 Honey is also effective as a heart tonic to treat heart disease, = including=20 heart failure. This effect is attributed to the large amounts of = carbohydrates=20 contained in honey. In an experiment in which glucose and honey were = administered to two groups of diabetics, the results showed a = significant=20 decrease in blood sugar in the group that received honey. However, = another=20 experiment indicated an opposite result in which 26subjects received an=20 intravenous injection of honey, including 11 normal persons, 12 liver = and heart=20 patients, and 3 diabetics. When blood sugar was measured within 40 to = 120=20 minutes after the injection, a temporary rise was found. The = contradictory=20 findings were attributed to the presence of acetylcholine and large = amounts of=20 carbohydrates in honey, because acetylcholine can lower blood sugar = whereas=20 carbohydrates can elevate it. When a person consumes a small quantity = of honey,=20 the effect of acetylcholine cancels out the carbohydrates;as the amounts = of=20 honey increase the carbohydrates cause a temporary rise in blood sugar. = In=20 addition, an intramuscular injection of honey into laboratory animals = results in=20 an increase of hepatic glycogen (carbohydrates stored in the liver), and = increase greater than the injection of glucose in similar quantity. = The=20 effectiveness of honey in the treatment of peptic ulcers has been found = to be as=20 high as 82 percent. After X-ray examinations, 50 percent of patients = have their=20 ulcers healed after being treated with honey. Honey can regulate the = quantity=20 of stomach acid by inhibiting its secretions when it becomes excessive = and=20 increasing it when it's insufficient, largely depending on the timing of = consumption and the concentration. When honey is taken orally an hour = and a=20 half before meals, it can inhibit the secretion of stomach acid; if it's = taken=20 right after meals, it can increase the secretion. When honey is taken = warm or=20 hot, it can dilute stomach fluids and reduce the degree of the acidity, = but when=20 it is taken cold, it can elevate the acidity and stimulate the movements = of the=20 intestinal tract. When honey is used to treat peptic ulcers, patients = should=20 eat warm foods and refrain from consuming alcohol and take only a = moderate=20 amount of salt. The People's Daily, published in China on March 11, = 1964,=20 printed a research report about the treatment of bronchial asthma by = inhaling=20 vapors of honey. According to this report, honey id diluted in = distilled water=20 that is sprayed into the noses of bronchial asthmatics. Each treatment = lasts 20=20 minutes, with one to tow treatments every day for 20 days. The results = were=20 beneficial for patients with bronchial asthma, bronchitis, laryngitis, = and=20 chronic rhinitis. Soviet scientists have also conducted research on = the=20 application of honey to treat pulmonary tuberculosis with the following = formula'=20 100 grams of honey, 100 grams of goose fat, 100 grams of lactic or = butyric acid,=20 100 grams of fresh aloe vera juice, and 100 grams of cocoa powder. Mis = the=20 ingredients thoroughly and then pour a teaspoon of powder into a glass = of hot=20 milk. Drink one glass tow times daily, which has been found to improve=20 subjective sensations and promote calcification of tuberculous focus. = However,=20 the role honey plays in the treatment of tuberculosis does not consist = of its=20 specific antituberculotic effects as substantiated by experiments, but = rather of=20 its effects as an energy tonic, which increases the body's immune = function that=20 results in early recovery. Clinical observations indicate that after=20 consumption of honey, patients of pulmonary tuberculosis have put on = body=20 weight, with cough significantly improved; the patients also show an = increase in=20 red hemoglobins (Hb), which carry oxygen from the lungs to the tissues, = and a=20 decrease in the erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR), which is normally=20 increased in a variety of infections, in cancer, and in pregnancy, and = decreased=20 in liver disease. Honey is routinely used to treat common colds, = according=20 to Russian folk medicine by the following methods: combining one gram of = lemon=20 juice with 100 grams of honey, combining a glass of mild with one = teaspoon of=20 honey, combining a cup of hot tea with one teaspoon of honey, and = combining an=20 equal amount of honey and ginger juice. In addition, it is reported = that by=20 combining an equal amount of honey and crushed garlic and taking one = teaspoonful=20 before bedtime for 3 consecutive days, one can prevent and treat = influenza but=20 the patient should also stay in bed to perspire and rest. Honey is = effective=20 as well in the treatment of heart disease (such as prolapse, = palpitation, and=20 various types of heart failure), primarily because as an energy tonic = and a yin=20 tonic food, it can nourish the heart muscles and improve their = metabolism;hone=20 can expand coronary blood vessels, which makes it effective in the = treatment of=20 angina pectoris (painand pressure about the heart). A Soviet scientist=20 recommends patients of severe heart disease to take 50 to 140 grams of = honey=20 every day, which often results in normalization of blood, and increase = in=20 hemoglobins (Hb), and an increase in the intensity of the blood vessels = of the=20 heart. Research indicates that children who are given honey = regularly have=20 their hemoglobin increased three times as fast as children who do not = take honey=20 at all. Also, honey can increase children's immune function to = counteract=20 infectious diseases such as mumps and measles. A honey bath is a = therapy=20 developed in the Soviet Union to treat skin diseases in which 200 to 250 = grams=20 of honey are added to bath water 2-3 times a week.Notes" A vacation = taken=20 by newlyweds is called a honeymoon, which is believed to have originated = from=20 the custom in Germany when a friend or relative of the bride gives her = honey as=20 a token of a sweet life ahead.=20 Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BD1ABB.5CE41560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings!
Is this voodo,or what? A friend sent this info, just wanted to = share with=20 others.
Midnitebee(Herb)
 
 

(Disclaimer)It is not intended to replace diagnosis by a health = care=20
professional.Enjoy the info!!  Will send more as I come across=20 it.
SYMPTOMS: Neurasthenia, hypertension, heart disease, coronary=20 arteriosclerosis,
liver, lung and eye disease, peptic ulcers, = diabetes,=20 dysentery, constipation,
anemia, colitis, asthma, pulmonary = tuberculosis,=20 burns.Preparation:  Mix honey
in water for better = absorption. =20 Consumption of 100 to 200 grams of honey a day
is considered = adequate for=20 adults (reduce dosages for children,  NEVER give to =
INFANTS). =20 Since honey contains large amounts of carbohydrates, large amounts =
consumed=20 within a single day may interfere in the normal function of = insulin. =20
The following is a standard administration of honey for two = months;  30=20 to 60
grams of honey in the morning,(6 to 12 teaspoons)  60 to = 80 grams=20 in the
afternoon  30 to 60 grams in the eveningOne hour before = meals or=20 two hours after
meals.  children should be given a teaspoonful = every=20 day (about 30 grams).
Prepare 20 grams of licorice and 10 grams of = orange=20 peel.  Boil the two
ingredients in 2 cups of water until the = water is=20 reduced to half.  Drain it and
add 100 grams (approx. 19 = teaspoons,)of=20 honey in water.  Divide it into three
dosages for one day = consumption=20 to cure stomach disease and peptic ulcers.Steam
60 grams of black = sesame=20 seeds until cooked'.  Then crush them into a jelly-like =
substance, and=20 mix with 100 grams of honey.  Pour the mixture into 1/2 cup =
boiling=20 water and mix it thoroughly.  Divide into two dosages and drink it = in=20
one day to cure hypertension and constipation.Classics:  It is = believed=20 that the
existence of honey dates back millions of years. The first = Chinese=20 herbal
classic published in the third century B.C., entitled 'The=20 Agriculture Emperor's
Materia Medica', said, "A prolonged = consumption=20 of honey will strengthen
willpower, check hunger and make one feel=20 rejuvenated and live a very long
life."Another Chinese Classic = written=20 in 1861 said, "Honey has five
therapeutic functions--namely, to = eliminate toxic heat, tone energy deficiency,
detoxicate, lubricate = dryness=20 and relieve pain.  Fresh honey is cool, which is
why it can = eliminate=20 toxic heat in the body.  Cooked honey is warm, which is why
it = can tone=20 energy deficiency.  Honey is sweet in flavor and neutral in energy=20
which is why it can detoxicate.  Honey is soft and moist, which = is why=20 it can
lubricate dryness.  Honey is mild in effects and has a = tendency=20 to slow down
acute symptoms, which is why it can relieve abdominal = pain and=20 ulcers.  Another
important effect of honey is to integrate the = effects=20 of various ingredients,
which is why honey is used in many herbal=20 formulas.  In this respect honey is
very much like licorice in = Chinese=20 herbal therapy."A third Chinese classic
dating from 1625 said,=20 "Fresh honey is cold in energy and sliding in
action, which is = why it=20 cans cause diarrhea or treat constipation.  When a
person = suffers from=20 diarrhea due to energy deficiency of the large intestine and =
indigestion,=20 honey should NOT be used as a remedy.  When vomiting and =
intoxication=20 occur, honey should NOT be used as a remedy.  When abdominal =
swelling=20 occurs, honey should NOT be used as a remedy.  When one suffers=20
beriberi with damp heat in the body, honey should NOT be=20 used.NUTRITION;honey
contains; 5.5 to 25 percent=20 water,           &= nbsp;   =20 0.08 to 1.10 percent ash,     =20
         0.26 to 4.40 = percent=20 protein,           = ;   =20 70 to 80 percent
carbohydrates including glucose (35=20 to            = ;   =20 36 percent) fructose (36
percent), and sucrose (1.71=20 to            = ;   =20 2.60 percent).A Japanese
researcher has found over 30 kinds of = carbohydrates=20 in honey' over 20 of them
are ketose, which is a carbohydrate = containing=20 ketones.  FOOD VALUE:( per 100
grams of honey)  Calories=20 304          Vitamin B-1 = ------5.5=20 to 135 milligrams  
       = Vitamin=20 B-2-------20 = milligrams         =20 Vitamin B-6-------227-480=20
milligrams          = Nicotinic=20 acid (vitamin PP), ----63-590=20 milligrams          =
Vitamin B-3=20 (Pantothenic acid----25-125=20 milligrams          = Biotin----6.6=20
milligrams          = folic=20 Acid---3 = milligrams         =20 Vitamin C----500 to 6,500=20
milligrams          = Vitamin=20 K----25 milligrams          = Vitamin=20 B-12---0.01
milligramsMINERAL=20 CONTENT          Honey = contains=20 0.04 to 0.06 percent minerals
on the average.Research indicates that = a=20 Kilogram of honey = contains:        =20
copper---0.61 to 2.36=20 milligrams         = cobalt---0.064 to 0.2=20 milligrams        =
 iron---2.07 to=20 26.52 milligrams         = zinc--3.25 to=20 28.25 milligrams        =20
calcium---35.07 to 340.61=20 milligrams         = phosphorous---100 to=20 1,090
milligramsHoney also contains  0.1 percent organic acid=20 including;maliclactic
formicIT CAN BE PRESERVED FOR A LONG = TIME.Studies have=20 shown that honey contains
0.1 to 0.4 inhibine, which can inhibit the = growth=20 of microorganisms, but the
action of inhibine is reduced on exposure = to=20 light and heat.  Nevertheless, in
the absence of light and when = the=20 temperature is below 25 degrees C, inhibine in
honey remains=20 active.RESEARCH; An injection of pure honey into the veins of =
laboratory=20 dogs has been found to cause a decrease in blood pressure and an =
expansion=20 of the coronary blood vessels.  This is attributed to the presence = of=20
acetylcholine, which plays an important role in the transmission of = nerve=20
impulses.  It causes a neuromuscular blockage when it is in = deficiency=20 or in
excess.     When blood pressure is too = low, honey=20 can raise it to normal levels.
 Honey is also effective as a = heart=20 tonic to treat heart disease, including
heart failure.  This = effect is=20 attributed to the large amounts of carbohydrates
contained in=20 honey.     In an experiment in which glucose and = honey were=20
administered to two groups of diabetics, the results showed a = significant=20
decrease in blood sugar in the group that received honey.  = However,=20 another
experiment indicated an opposite result in which 26subjects = received=20 an
intravenous injection of honey, including 11 normal persons, 12 = liver and=20 heart
patients, and 3 diabetics.  When blood sugar was measured = within=20 40 to 120
minutes after the injection, a temporary rise was found. = The=20 contradictory
findings were attributed to the presence of = acetylcholine and=20 large amounts of
carbohydrates in honey, because acetylcholine can = lower=20 blood sugar whereas
carbohydrates can elevate it.  When a = person=20 consumes a small quantity of honey,
the effect of acetylcholine = cancels out=20 the carbohydrates;as the amounts of
honey increase the carbohydrates = cause a=20 temporary rise in blood sugar.     In
addition, = an=20 intramuscular injection of honey into laboratory animals results in =
an=20 increase of hepatic glycogen (carbohydrates stored in the liver), and=20
increase greater than the injection of glucose in similar=20 quantity.    The
effectiveness of honey in the = treatment of=20 peptic ulcers has been found to be as
high as 82 percent.  = After X-ray=20 examinations, 50 percent of patients have their
ulcers healed after = being=20 treated with honey.  Honey can regulate the quantity
of stomach = acid by=20 inhibiting its secretions when it becomes excessive and
increasing = it when=20 it's insufficient, largely depending on the timing of
consumption = and the=20 concentration.  When honey is taken orally an hour and a
half = before=20 meals, it can inhibit the secretion of stomach acid; if it's taken =
right=20 after meals, it can increase the secretion.  When honey is taken = warm or=20
hot, it can dilute stomach fluids and reduce the degree of the = acidity, but=20 when
it is taken cold, it can elevate the acidity and stimulate the=20 movements of the
intestinal tract.  When honey is used to treat = peptic=20 ulcers, patients should
eat warm foods and refrain from consuming = alcohol=20 and take only a moderate
amount of salt.     The = People's Daily, published in China on March 11, 1964,
printed a = research=20 report about the treatment of bronchial asthma by inhaling
vapors of = honey.  According to this report, honey id diluted in distilled = water=20
that is sprayed into the noses of bronchial asthmatics.  Each = treatment=20 lasts 20
minutes, with one to tow treatments every day for 20 = days. =20 The results were
beneficial for patients with bronchial asthma, = bronchitis,=20 laryngitis, and
chronic rhinitis.     Soviet = scientists=20 have also conducted research on the
application of honey to treat = pulmonary=20 tuberculosis with the following formula'
100 grams of honey, 100 = grams of=20 goose fat, 100 grams of lactic or butyric acid,
100 grams of fresh = aloe vera=20 juice, and 100 grams of cocoa powder.  Mis the
ingredients = thoroughly=20 and then pour a teaspoon of powder into a glass of hot
milk.  = Drink one=20 glass tow times daily, which has been found to improve
subjective = sensations=20 and promote calcification of tuberculous focus.  However,
the = role=20 honey plays in the treatment of tuberculosis does not consist of its=20
specific antituberculotic effects as substantiated by experiments, = but=20 rather of
its effects as an energy tonic, which increases the body's = immune=20 function that
results in early recovery.  Clinical observations = indicate that after
consumption of honey, patients of pulmonary = tuberculosis=20 have put on body
weight, with cough significantly improved; the = patients=20 also show an increase in
red hemoglobins (Hb), which carry oxygen = from the=20 lungs to the tissues, and a
decrease in the erythrocyte = sedimentation rate=20 (ESR), which is normally
increased in a variety of infections, in = cancer,=20 and in pregnancy, and decreased
in liver=20 disease.       Honey is routinely used to = treat=20 common colds, according
to Russian folk medicine by the following = methods:=20 combining one gram of lemon
juice with 100 grams of honey, combining = a glass=20 of mild with one teaspoon of
honey, combining a cup of hot tea with = one=20 teaspoon of honey, and combining an
equal amount of honey and ginger = juice.  In addition, it is reported that by
combining an equal = amount=20 of honey and crushed garlic and taking one teaspoonful
before = bedtime for 3=20 consecutive days, one can prevent and treat influenza but
the = patient should=20 also stay in bed to perspire and rest.     Honey is=20 effective
as well in the treatment of heart disease (such as = prolapse,=20 palpitation, and
various types of heart failure), primarily because = as an=20 energy tonic and a yin
tonic food, it can nourish the heart muscles = and=20 improve their metabolism;hone
can expand coronary blood vessels, = which makes=20 it effective in the treatment of
angina pectoris (painand pressure = about the=20 heart).  A Soviet scientist
recommends patients of severe heart = disease=20 to take 50 to 140 grams of honey
every day, which often results in=20 normalization of blood, and increase in
hemoglobins (Hb), and an = increase in=20 the intensity of the blood vessels of the =
heart.    =20 Research indicates  that children who are given honey regularly = have=20
their hemoglobin increased three times as fast as children who do = not take=20 honey
at all.  Also, honey can increase children's immune = function to=20 counteract
infectious diseases such as mumps and measles.  A = honey bath=20 is a therapy
developed in the Soviet Union to treat skin diseases in = which=20 200 to 250 grams
of honey are added to bath water 2-3 times a=20 week.Notes" A vacation taken
by newlyweds is called a = honeymoon, which=20 is believed to have originated from
the custom in Germany when a = friend or=20 relative of the bride gives her honey as
a token of a sweet life = ahead.=20
 
Holly-B Apiary
P.O.Box = 26
Wells,Maine=20 04090-0026
www.cybertours.com/~midnit= ebee
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BD1ABB.5CE41560-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:50:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brant S Miller Subject: NOMAIL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NOMAIL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:54:38 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: Feeding minerals, vitamins, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rimantas Zujus, I would appreciate your replying to a few questions (I placed them in CAPS inside your message) regarding Nosema control using your formulas. A common question to the three treatments that you propose is: How many treatments are necessary? How often do you repeat treatments? What quantity of medicine do you supply to each hive? Thanks a lot. Martin Braunstein Malka Cabania Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar ---------- > From: Rimantas Zujus > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Every month we are invited to take a part in consulting meetings arranged by the beekeeper society of our town. > There is delivered a lecture on a "hot" topic by some professor of an agricultural school or an experienced beekeeper. > We are suggested to refuse chemical treatment and use natural means. > Here is some recipes to prevent Nosema. Should be used for winter feeding (bees get treatment all the winter season using such meals) !!! > 1. Garlic. > Preparing "brandy": Grate 25g of garlic and add 300g of boiling water ( 100 dg C ). Wait 3-4 hours. Filter. > Syrup ratio : 1kg sugar +1ltr water+75g (or mltr) of "brandy". > There is noticed an influence against varroa and moth when using such syrup often (by keeping garlic smell in a hive ) -WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "MLTR"? AND WHAT ABOUT "100 dg C" ? -WHEN YOU SPEAK ABOUT BRANDY, ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE ALCOHOL DRINK KNOWN AS BRANDY? > 2. Saint-John's-wort. > Preparing "brandy": 5ltr water +(100-200)g Saint-John's-wort to boil 10-15 minutes. To filter the rosy "brandy". > Syrup ratio: 50kg sugar +30ltr water +5ltr of "brandy". WHAT SORT OF THING IS "SAINT-JOHN'S WORT"? (NEVER HEARD ABOUT IT) > 3.Wormwood (absinthium). > Preparing "brandy": 5ltr water +100g wormwood. Dropping to a boiling water and wait until becomes cool. (Taste is bitter) > Syrup ratio: : 50kg sugar +30ltr water +5ltr of "brandy". > Attention: Such honey has a little bitter taste if to use ! > > Best regards > > Rimantas Zujus > Kaunas > Lithuania > e-mail: zujus@isag.lei.lt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:01:14 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Naser Ali Altayeb Subject: beesExample MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, What are the species of the honey bees the widely known among people today? and which are the most suitable for the desert regions like Kuwait for example? Thanks..... Naser Altayeb Kuwait ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:24:38 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Carlos Aparicio Subject: Re: beesExample Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 11:01 AM 07/01/1998 +0300, Naser Ali Altayeb wrote: >Hi All, > What are the species of the honey bees the widely known among people >today? and which are the most suitable for the desert regions like >Kuwait for example? Thanks..... > Naser Altayeb > Kuwait > > =BA 1)I would observe feral bees. 2)I would talk with a established apiarie. 3)I would try with a light gas powered bee. Good Luck Carlos Aparicio ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:35:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: The Chinese System of Using Foods to Stay Young MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013B_01BD1B2E.0FBC82E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013B_01BD1B2E.0FBC82E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Greetings! Is this voodo,or what? A friend sent this info, just wanted to share = with others. Midnitebee(Herb) =20 =20 =20 (Disclaimer)It is not intended to replace diagnosis by a health care = professional.Enjoy the info!! Will send more as I come across it. SYMPTOMS: Neurasthenia, hypertension, heart disease, coronary = arteriosclerosis,=20 liver, lung and eye disease, peptic ulcers, diabetes, dysentery, = constipation,=20 anemia, colitis, asthma, pulmonary tuberculosis, burns.Preparation: = Mix honey=20 in water for better absorption. Consumption of 100 to 200 grams of = honey a day=20 is considered adequate for adults (reduce dosages for children, = NEVER give to=20 INFANTS). Since honey contains large amounts of carbohydrates, = large amounts=20 consumed within a single day may interfere in the normal function of = insulin. =20 The following is a standard administration of honey for two months; = 30 to 60=20 grams of honey in the morning,(6 to 12 teaspoons) 60 to 80 grams in = the=20 afternoon 30 to 60 grams in the eveningOne hour before meals or two = hours after=20 meals. children should be given a teaspoonful every day (about 30 = grams). Prepare 20 grams of licorice and 10 grams of orange peel. Boil the = two=20 ingredients in 2 cups of water until the water is reduced to half. = Drain it and=20 add 100 grams (approx. 19 teaspoons,)of honey in water. Divide it = into three=20 dosages for one day consumption to cure stomach disease and peptic = ulcers.Steam=20 60 grams of black sesame seeds until cooked'. Then crush them into = a jelly-like=20 substance, and mix with 100 grams of honey. Pour the mixture into = 1/2 cup=20 boiling water and mix it thoroughly. Divide into two dosages and = drink it in=20 one day to cure hypertension and constipation.Classics: It is = believed that the=20 existence of honey dates back millions of years. The first Chinese = herbal=20 classic published in the third century B.C., entitled 'The = Agriculture Emperor's=20 Materia Medica', said, "A prolonged consumption of honey will = strengthen=20 willpower, check hunger and make one feel rejuvenated and live a = very long=20 life."Another Chinese Classic written in 1861 said, "Honey has five=20 therapeutic functions--namely, to eliminate toxic heat, tone energy = deficiency,=20 detoxicate, lubricate dryness and relieve pain. Fresh honey is = cool, which is=20 why it can eliminate toxic heat in the body. Cooked honey is warm, = which is why=20 it can tone energy deficiency. Honey is sweet in flavor and neutral = in energy=20 which is why it can detoxicate. Honey is soft and moist, which is = why it can=20 lubricate dryness. Honey is mild in effects and has a tendency to = slow down=20 acute symptoms, which is why it can relieve abdominal pain and = ulcers. Another=20 important effect of honey is to integrate the effects of various = ingredients,=20 which is why honey is used in many herbal formulas. In this respect = honey is=20 very much like licorice in Chinese herbal therapy."A third Chinese = classic=20 dating from 1625 said, "Fresh honey is cold in energy and sliding in = action, which is why it cans cause diarrhea or treat constipation. = When a=20 person suffers from diarrhea due to energy deficiency of the large = intestine and=20 indigestion, honey should NOT be used as a remedy. When vomiting = and=20 intoxication occur, honey should NOT be used as a remedy. When = abdominal=20 swelling occurs, honey should NOT be used as a remedy. When one = suffers=20 beriberi with damp heat in the body, honey should NOT be = used.NUTRITION;honey=20 contains; 5.5 to 25 percent water, 0.08 to 1.10 = percent ash, =20 0.26 to 4.40 percent protein, 70 to 80 = percent=20 carbohydrates including glucose (35 to 36 percent) = fructose (36=20 percent), and sucrose (1.71 to 2.60 percent).A = Japanese=20 researcher has found over 30 kinds of carbohydrates in honey' over = 20 of them=20 are ketose, which is a carbohydrate containing ketones. FOOD = VALUE:( per 100=20 grams of honey) Calories 304 Vitamin B-1 ------5.5 to 135 = milligrams =20 Vitamin B-2-------20 milligrams Vitamin = B-6-------227-480=20 milligrams Nicotinic acid (vitamin PP), ----63-590 = milligrams =20 Vitamin B-3 (Pantothenic acid----25-125 milligrams = Biotin----6.6=20 milligrams folic Acid---3 milligrams Vitamin = C----500 to 6,500=20 milligrams Vitamin K----25 milligrams Vitamin = B-12---0.01=20 milligramsMINERAL CONTENT Honey contains 0.04 to 0.06 = percent minerals=20 on the average.Research indicates that a Kilogram of honey contains: = =20 copper---0.61 to 2.36 milligrams cobalt---0.064 to 0.2 = milligrams =20 iron---2.07 to 26.52 milligrams zinc--3.25 to 28.25 = milligrams =20 calcium---35.07 to 340.61 milligrams phosphorous---100 to = 1,090=20 milligramsHoney also contains 0.1 percent organic acid = including;maliclactic formicIT CAN BE PRESERVED FOR A LONG TIME.Studies have shown that = honey contains=20 0.1 to 0.4 inhibine, which can inhibit the growth of microorganisms, = but the=20 action of inhibine is reduced on exposure to light and heat. = Nevertheless, in=20 the absence of light and when the temperature is below 25 degrees C, = inhibine in=20 honey remains active.RESEARCH; An injection of pure honey into the = veins of=20 laboratory dogs has been found to cause a decrease in blood pressure = and an=20 expansion of the coronary blood vessels. This is attributed to the = presence of=20 acetylcholine, which plays an important role in the transmission of = nerve=20 impulses. It causes a neuromuscular blockage when it is in = deficiency or in=20 excess. When blood pressure is too low, honey can raise it to = normal levels.=20 Honey is also effective as a heart tonic to treat heart disease, = including=20 heart failure. This effect is attributed to the large amounts of = carbohydrates=20 contained in honey. In an experiment in which glucose and honey = were=20 administered to two groups of diabetics, the results showed a = significant=20 decrease in blood sugar in the group that received honey. However, = another=20 experiment indicated an opposite result in which 26subjects received = an=20 intravenous injection of honey, including 11 normal persons, 12 = liver and heart=20 patients, and 3 diabetics. When blood sugar was measured within 40 = to 120=20 minutes after the injection, a temporary rise was found. The = contradictory=20 findings were attributed to the presence of acetylcholine and large = amounts of=20 carbohydrates in honey, because acetylcholine can lower blood sugar = whereas=20 carbohydrates can elevate it. When a person consumes a small = quantity of honey,=20 the effect of acetylcholine cancels out the carbohydrates;as the = amounts of=20 honey increase the carbohydrates cause a temporary rise in blood = sugar. In=20 addition, an intramuscular injection of honey into laboratory = animals results in=20 an increase of hepatic glycogen (carbohydrates stored in the liver), = and=20 increase greater than the injection of glucose in similar quantity. = The=20 effectiveness of honey in the treatment of peptic ulcers has been = found to be as=20 high as 82 percent. After X-ray examinations, 50 percent of = patients have their=20 ulcers healed after being treated with honey. Honey can regulate = the quantity=20 of stomach acid by inhibiting its secretions when it becomes = excessive and=20 increasing it when it's insufficient, largely depending on the = timing of=20 consumption and the concentration. When honey is taken orally an = hour and a=20 half before meals, it can inhibit the secretion of stomach acid; if = it's taken=20 right after meals, it can increase the secretion. When honey is = taken warm or=20 hot, it can dilute stomach fluids and reduce the degree of the = acidity, but when=20 it is taken cold, it can elevate the acidity and stimulate the = movements of the=20 intestinal tract. When honey is used to treat peptic ulcers, = patients should=20 eat warm foods and refrain from consuming alcohol and take only a = moderate=20 amount of salt. The People's Daily, published in China on March = 11, 1964,=20 printed a research report about the treatment of bronchial asthma by = inhaling=20 vapors of honey. According to this report, honey id diluted in = distilled water=20 that is sprayed into the noses of bronchial asthmatics. Each = treatment lasts 20=20 minutes, with one to tow treatments every day for 20 days. The = results were=20 beneficial for patients with bronchial asthma, bronchitis, = laryngitis, and=20 chronic rhinitis. Soviet scientists have also conducted research = on the=20 application of honey to treat pulmonary tuberculosis with the = following formula'=20 100 grams of honey, 100 grams of goose fat, 100 grams of lactic or = butyric acid,=20 100 grams of fresh aloe vera juice, and 100 grams of cocoa powder. = Mis the=20 ingredients thoroughly and then pour a teaspoon of powder into a = glass of hot=20 milk. Drink one glass tow times daily, which has been found to = improve=20 subjective sensations and promote calcification of tuberculous = focus. However,=20 the role honey plays in the treatment of tuberculosis does not = consist of its=20 specific antituberculotic effects as substantiated by experiments, = but rather of=20 its effects as an energy tonic, which increases the body's immune = function that=20 results in early recovery. Clinical observations indicate that = after=20 consumption of honey, patients of pulmonary tuberculosis have put on = body=20 weight, with cough significantly improved; the patients also show an = increase in=20 red hemoglobins (Hb), which carry oxygen from the lungs to the = tissues, and a=20 decrease in the erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR), which is = normally=20 increased in a variety of infections, in cancer, and in pregnancy, = and decreased=20 in liver disease. Honey is routinely used to treat common = colds, according=20 to Russian folk medicine by the following methods: combining one = gram of lemon=20 juice with 100 grams of honey, combining a glass of mild with one = teaspoon of=20 honey, combining a cup of hot tea with one teaspoon of honey, and = combining an=20 equal amount of honey and ginger juice. In addition, it is reported = that by=20 combining an equal amount of honey and crushed garlic and taking one = teaspoonful=20 before bedtime for 3 consecutive days, one can prevent and treat = influenza but=20 the patient should also stay in bed to perspire and rest. Honey = is effective=20 as well in the treatment of heart disease (such as prolapse, = palpitation, and=20 various types of heart failure), primarily because as an energy = tonic and a yin=20 tonic food, it can nourish the heart muscles and improve their = metabolism;hone=20 can expand coronary blood vessels, which makes it effective in the = treatment of=20 angina pectoris (painand pressure about the heart). A Soviet = scientist=20 recommends patients of severe heart disease to take 50 to 140 grams = of honey=20 every day, which often results in normalization of blood, and = increase in=20 hemoglobins (Hb), and an increase in the intensity of the blood = vessels of the=20 heart. Research indicates that children who are given honey = regularly have=20 their hemoglobin increased three times as fast as children who do = not take honey=20 at all. Also, honey can increase children's immune function to = counteract=20 infectious diseases such as mumps and measles. A honey bath is a = therapy=20 developed in the Soviet Union to treat skin diseases in which 200 to = 250 grams=20 of honey are added to bath water 2-3 times a week.Notes" A vacation = taken=20 by newlyweds is called a honeymoon, which is believed to have = originated from=20 the custom in Germany when a friend or relative of the bride gives = her honey as=20 a token of a sweet life ahead.=20 =20 Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ------=_NextPart_000_013B_01BD1B2E.0FBC82E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

 
Greetings!
Is this voodo,or what? A friend sent this info, just wanted to = share=20 with others.
Midnitebee(Herb)
 
 

(Disclaimer)It is not intended to replace diagnosis by a = health=20 care
professional.Enjoy the info!!  Will send more as I = come across=20 it.
SYMPTOMS: Neurasthenia, hypertension, heart disease, coronary = arteriosclerosis,
liver, lung and eye disease, peptic ulcers, = diabetes,=20 dysentery, constipation,
anemia, colitis, asthma, pulmonary=20 tuberculosis, burns.Preparation:  Mix honey
in water for = better=20 absorption.  Consumption of 100 to 200 grams of honey a day =
is=20 considered adequate for adults (reduce dosages for children,  = NEVER=20 give to
INFANTS).  Since honey contains large amounts of=20 carbohydrates, large amounts
consumed within a single day may = interfere=20 in the normal function of insulin. 
The following is a = standard=20 administration of honey for two months;  30 to 60
grams of = honey in=20 the morning,(6 to 12 teaspoons)  60 to 80 grams in the=20
afternoon  30 to 60 grams in the eveningOne hour before = meals or=20 two hours after
meals.  children should be given a = teaspoonful=20 every day (about 30 grams).
Prepare 20 grams of licorice and 10 = grams of=20 orange peel.  Boil the two
ingredients in 2 cups of water = until the=20 water is reduced to half.  Drain it and
add 100 grams = (approx. 19=20 teaspoons,)of honey in water.  Divide it into three
dosages = for one=20 day consumption to cure stomach disease and peptic ulcers.Steam =
60 grams=20 of black sesame seeds until cooked'.  Then crush them into a = jelly-like=20
substance, and mix with 100 grams of honey.  Pour the = mixture into=20 1/2 cup
boiling water and mix it thoroughly.  Divide into = two=20 dosages and drink it in
one day to cure hypertension and=20 constipation.Classics:  It is believed that the
existence = of honey=20 dates back millions of years. The first Chinese herbal
classic = published=20 in the third century B.C., entitled 'The Agriculture Emperor's =
Materia=20 Medica', said, "A prolonged consumption of honey will = strengthen=20
willpower, check hunger and make one feel rejuvenated and live a = very=20 long
life."Another Chinese Classic written in 1861 said,=20 "Honey has five
therapeutic functions--namely, to eliminate = toxic=20 heat, tone energy deficiency,
detoxicate, lubricate dryness and = relieve=20 pain.  Fresh honey is cool, which is
why it can eliminate = toxic=20 heat in the body.  Cooked honey is warm, which is why
it = can tone=20 energy deficiency.  Honey is sweet in flavor and neutral in = energy=20
which is why it can detoxicate.  Honey is soft and moist, = which is=20 why it can
lubricate dryness.  Honey is mild in effects and = has a=20 tendency to slow down
acute symptoms, which is why it can = relieve=20 abdominal pain and ulcers.  Another
important effect of = honey is to=20 integrate the effects of various ingredients,
which is why honey = is used=20 in many herbal formulas.  In this respect honey is
very = much like=20 licorice in Chinese herbal therapy."A third Chinese classic =
dating=20 from 1625 said, "Fresh honey is cold in energy and sliding in=20
action, which is why it cans cause diarrhea or treat = constipation. =20 When a
person suffers from diarrhea due to energy deficiency of = the=20 large intestine and
indigestion, honey should NOT be used as a=20 remedy.  When vomiting and
intoxication occur, honey should = NOT be=20 used as a remedy.  When abdominal
swelling occurs, honey = should NOT=20 be used as a remedy.  When one suffers
beriberi with damp = heat in=20 the body, honey should NOT be used.NUTRITION;honey
contains; 5.5 = to 25=20 percent=20 = water,           &= nbsp;   =20 0.08 to 1.10 percent ash,     =20
         0.26 to 4.40 = percent=20 = protein,           = ;   =20 70 to 80 percent
carbohydrates including glucose (35=20 = to            = ;   =20 36 percent) fructose (36
percent), and sucrose (1.71=20 = to            = ;   =20 2.60 percent).A Japanese
researcher has found over 30 kinds of=20 carbohydrates in honey' over 20 of them
are ketose, which is a=20 carbohydrate containing ketones.  FOOD VALUE:( per 100 =
grams of=20 honey)  Calories=20 304          Vitamin = B-1=20 ------5.5 to 135 milligrams  =20
       Vitamin B-2-------20=20 milligrams          = Vitamin=20 B-6-------227-480=20
milligrams          = Nicotinic acid (vitamin PP), ----63-590=20 milligrams          =
Vitamin=20 B-3 (Pantothenic acid----25-125=20 milligrams         =20 Biotin----6.6=20
milligrams          = folic=20 Acid---3 = milligrams         =20 Vitamin C----500 to 6,500=20
milligrams          = Vitamin=20 K----25 = milligrams         =20 Vitamin B-12---0.01
milligramsMINERAL=20 CONTENT          Honey = contains=20 0.04 to 0.06 percent minerals
on the average.Research indicates = that a=20 Kilogram of honey = contains:        =20
copper---0.61 to 2.36=20 milligrams         = cobalt---0.064 to=20 0.2 milligrams       =20
 iron---2.07 to 26.52=20 milligrams         = zinc--3.25 to=20 28.25 milligrams        =20
calcium---35.07 to 340.61=20 milligrams         = phosphorous---100=20 to 1,090
milligramsHoney also contains  0.1 percent organic = acid=20 including;maliclactic
formicIT CAN BE PRESERVED FOR A LONG = TIME.Studies=20 have shown that honey contains
0.1 to 0.4 inhibine, which can = inhibit=20 the growth of microorganisms, but the
action of inhibine is = reduced on=20 exposure to light and heat.  Nevertheless, in
the absence = of light=20 and when the temperature is below 25 degrees C, inhibine in =
honey=20 remains active.RESEARCH; An injection of pure honey into the veins = of=20
laboratory dogs has been found to cause a decrease in blood = pressure and=20 an
expansion of the coronary blood vessels.  This is = attributed to=20 the presence of
acetylcholine, which plays an important role in = the=20 transmission of nerve
impulses.  It causes a neuromuscular = blockage=20 when it is in deficiency or in
excess.     = When=20 blood pressure is too low, honey can raise it to normal levels.=20
 Honey is also effective as a heart tonic to treat heart = disease,=20 including
heart failure.  This effect is attributed to the = large=20 amounts of carbohydrates
contained in = honey.     In=20 an experiment in which glucose and honey were
administered to = two groups=20 of diabetics, the results showed a significant
decrease in blood = sugar=20 in the group that received honey.  However, another =
experiment=20 indicated an opposite result in which 26subjects received an =
intravenous=20 injection of honey, including 11 normal persons, 12 liver and heart=20
patients, and 3 diabetics.  When blood sugar was measured = within 40=20 to 120
minutes after the injection, a temporary rise was found. = The=20 contradictory
findings were attributed to the presence of = acetylcholine=20 and large amounts of
carbohydrates in honey, because = acetylcholine can=20 lower blood sugar whereas
carbohydrates can elevate it.  = When a=20 person consumes a small quantity of honey,
the effect of = acetylcholine=20 cancels out the carbohydrates;as the amounts of
honey increase = the=20 carbohydrates cause a temporary rise in blood = sugar.    =20 In
addition, an intramuscular injection of honey into laboratory = animals=20 results in
an increase of hepatic glycogen (carbohydrates stored = in the=20 liver), and
increase greater than the injection of glucose in = similar=20 quantity.    The
effectiveness of honey in the = treatment=20 of peptic ulcers has been found to be as
high as 82 = percent.  After=20 X-ray examinations, 50 percent of patients have their
ulcers = healed=20 after being treated with honey.  Honey can regulate the = quantity
of=20 stomach acid by inhibiting its secretions when it becomes excessive = and=20
increasing it when it's insufficient, largely depending on the = timing of=20
consumption and the concentration.  When honey is taken = orally an=20 hour and a
half before meals, it can inhibit the secretion of = stomach=20 acid; if it's taken
right after meals, it can increase the=20 secretion.  When honey is taken warm or
hot, it can dilute = stomach=20 fluids and reduce the degree of the acidity, but when
it is = taken cold,=20 it can elevate the acidity and stimulate the movements of the =
intestinal=20 tract.  When honey is used to treat peptic ulcers, patients = should=20
eat warm foods and refrain from consuming alcohol and take only = a=20 moderate
amount of salt.     The People's = Daily,=20 published in China on March 11, 1964,
printed a research report = about=20 the treatment of bronchial asthma by inhaling
vapors of = honey. =20 According to this report, honey id diluted in distilled water =
that is=20 sprayed into the noses of bronchial asthmatics.  Each treatment = lasts=20 20
minutes, with one to tow treatments every day for 20 = days.  The=20 results were
beneficial for patients with bronchial asthma, = bronchitis,=20 laryngitis, and
chronic rhinitis.     Soviet = scientists have also conducted research on the
application of = honey to=20 treat pulmonary tuberculosis with the following formula'
100 = grams of=20 honey, 100 grams of goose fat, 100 grams of lactic or butyric acid, =
100=20 grams of fresh aloe vera juice, and 100 grams of cocoa powder.  = Mis the=20
ingredients thoroughly and then pour a teaspoon of powder into a = glass=20 of hot
milk.  Drink one glass tow times daily, which has = been found=20 to improve
subjective sensations and promote calcification of=20 tuberculous focus.  However,
the role honey plays in the = treatment=20 of tuberculosis does not consist of its
specific = antituberculotic=20 effects as substantiated by experiments, but rather of
its = effects as an=20 energy tonic, which increases the body's immune function that =
results in=20 early recovery.  Clinical observations indicate that after=20
consumption of honey, patients of pulmonary tuberculosis have = put on=20 body
weight, with cough significantly improved; the patients = also show=20 an increase in
red hemoglobins (Hb), which carry oxygen from the = lungs=20 to the tissues, and a
decrease in the erythrocyte sedimentation = rate=20 (ESR), which is normally
increased in a variety of infections, = in=20 cancer, and in pregnancy, and decreased
in liver=20 disease.       Honey is routinely used = to=20 treat common colds, according
to Russian folk medicine by the = following=20 methods: combining one gram of lemon
juice with 100 grams of = honey,=20 combining a glass of mild with one teaspoon of
honey, combining = a cup of=20 hot tea with one teaspoon of honey, and combining an
equal = amount of=20 honey and ginger juice.  In addition, it is reported that by=20
combining an equal amount of honey and crushed garlic and taking = one=20 teaspoonful
before bedtime for 3 consecutive days, one can = prevent and=20 treat influenza but
the patient should also stay in bed to = perspire and=20 rest.     Honey is effective
as well in the=20 treatment of heart disease (such as prolapse, palpitation, and =
various=20 types of heart failure), primarily because as an energy tonic and a = yin=20
tonic food, it can nourish the heart muscles and improve their=20 metabolism;hone
can expand coronary blood vessels, which makes = it=20 effective in the treatment of
angina pectoris (painand pressure = about=20 the heart).  A Soviet scientist
recommends patients of = severe heart=20 disease to take 50 to 140 grams of honey
every day, which often = results=20 in normalization of blood, and increase in
hemoglobins (Hb), and = an=20 increase in the intensity of the blood vessels of the=20
heart.     Research indicates  that = children=20 who are given honey regularly have
their hemoglobin increased = three=20 times as fast as children who do not take honey
at all.  = Also,=20 honey can increase children's immune function to counteract =
infectious=20 diseases such as mumps and measles.  A honey bath is a therapy=20
developed in the Soviet Union to treat skin diseases in which = 200 to 250=20 grams
of honey are added to bath water 2-3 times a = week.Notes" A=20 vacation taken
by newlyweds is called a honeymoon, which is = believed to=20 have originated from
the custom in Germany when a friend or = relative of=20 the bride gives her honey as
a token of a sweet life ahead. =
 
Holly-B Apiary
P.O.Box = 26
Wells,Maine=20 04090-0026
www.cybertours.com/~midnit= ebee
------=_NextPart_000_013B_01BD1B2E.0FBC82E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:18:14 +0100 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Help needed in Memphis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings - Is there someone in the Memphis area that could help this woman out? Please reply to her directly at: CarrieF@concentric.net > Carrie Feldhaus wrote: > > Good Evening, > > I recently found a honey bee hive on the farm I live on in Memphis TN. > I am looking for someone who could possibly move the hive & help me > maintain it through a barter system. Do you know of anyone in the > Memphis area who might be able to help me. > > Carrie > CarrieF@concentric.net -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:14:26 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Queries from the Emirates Hi I noticed a few interesting questions posted. I have unfortunately lost your address - but remember you were in the UAE. JOS SCHOENMAKER Box 1022, Umm-al-Quwain, United Arab Emirates; 09971- 6- 662293. He is a very nice guy and will I am sure also be helpful in finding contacts for getting equipment. Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:24:37 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Bee feeding Hi All On the bee feed topic - I find this really interesting. If we consider a pollen grain it is a hard husk that is usually yellow with a small haploid plant inside and some energy stores to help this little plant germinate and grow it's pollen tupe down the anther into the ovary of the female plant and deliver a sperm cell or two to it. The husk or endosperm or whatever it's name is is undigested by bees - those little yellow splats that land on your car, window, honeybottles etc and are a pain to remove are proof of that. But bees get nutrition out of the pollen somehow. My theory - they wet the pollen and it germinates. Pollen will not germinate unless it is stimulated by certain sugars and other things usually only found on flower tips. Do bees gather such sugars??? I am sure. So if they spit on the pollen it should germinate.(Has anybody ever noticed how pollen from a comb is sweeter than pollen from the landing board??) The pollen tube will grow out and give a small thin film of nutrients. If bees eat this they should be able to digest the now released proteins and nucleic acids in the germinating pollen granule. (Andy mentioned a few months back about the film of water being important.) (A bit like malting the pollen!!) Yeast would in theory be a problem for bees to digest as it is quite tough, but it has a cell wall - fungi and plants have a similar cell wall, so if a bee can digest a pollen tube it can theoretical digest a yeast cell. Yeast cells are also a biological toolbox full of fancy enzymes that can probably hydrolyse all sorts of things out of fancy chemicals like soy proteins and carbohydrates. It also has quite a high DNA/ RNA content which I would think would be useful for a queen trying to produce 2000-3000 eggs a day. Hope this is not too far of the mark! Keep well Garth --- Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:19:31 +0000 Reply-To: luichart.woollens@virgin.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Organization: Luichart Woollens Subject: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I was in Inverness today and went into a new Health food shop in the main street and there, on the shelf, were jars of "Organic Mediterranean Honey" (produce of Turkey). The price was no dearer than any of the other honeys in the shop many of which were from New Zealand and Australia. Do they have Varroa in Turkey? -- Harry Scotland Knitwear Web pages: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/ Beekeeping Page: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/page8.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:34:29 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: EDHC Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Hive Population in Winter Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I made the mistake of not moving one of my bee yards that is in a higher elevation (above 7,000 feet) to a lower & warmer elevation (3,000 feet) before the first snow fell. Today the sun was warm and the bees were flying (around 50 F) so I check 3 hives to see how they were doing. Honey surplus was good in all hives (75 + #'s or more in each), but I noticed be populations seemed to be about the quantity of a 2 or 3 # package of bees. Does anyone know what the population of a hive should reach before brood rearing begins again for spring buildup? Thanks, Ed Costanza New Mexico Fruit & Gift Basket Edgewood, New Mexico USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:24:22 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: Alternative Anti-Parasitics for Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I wonder whether someone knows of alternative drugs for Nosema treatment other than Fumidil-B (Fumagillin). Yesterday when checking a book entitled "Honey Bee Pathology" by Lesley Bailey, I noticed a list of drugs seemingly providing good results, they are: 1) Gramicidine. 2) Sulphaquinoxaline. 3) Anisomicine. 4) Phenol Uratropine. 5) Beta Naphtol 6) Salol The author only says he had reports of good results from some researchers and strongly suggests to assess their toxicity for honeybees and their efficacy for Nosema control. In no way he encourages their use until further tests were performed. Did anybody on the list try them? Which were the results? Thanks in advance for your reply. Martin Braunstein Malka Cabania Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar