========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:37:48 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: bee sting Hi Walt As regards your sting to the eye: Eyes are big puffy sacks (well the tissue around them) - very little disturbance in the balance of liquid inside these cavities and outside is required to make you look like a monster. One can easily reach the stage when a sting on the hand or arm does not swell for more than about 15 min, or not at all by being regularily and numerously stung. I have however only had one occasion where I boosted my tolerance to beestings to the point where a sting to the eye had no major noticeable effect, and that was after three bad days in which my total stings ran just over 240 - I prefer to have a funny eye than to go through that sort of preperation. (As regards the high sting count it had to do with a little problem with using an electric jig saw to cut open a roof where a rather large hive was nesting and a not so well made smoker that went out etc) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey If parents taught kids about the birds and bees, guys would believe they were half the women they used to be!! Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:58:47 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: varroa and funny hive colours Greets All Curtis as far as the Newtons law thingy goes I know for a fact with my bees at least that they have a sort of cycle with an early morning temp of about 32C a midday temp of about 34C and an evening temp of 35 -36C. So we can hope maybe by raising that early morning temp to say about 33 or 34 for two hours longer will have a major effect. This sort of thing would be very difficult to quantify though. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey If parents taught kids about the birds and bees, guys would believe they were half the women they used to be!! Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Billson Organization: my honeybees are more organized than me! :-) Subject: Re: Varroa and funny hive colours In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, CSlade777 wrote: >This is an interesting experiment the amateur can do if he can get hold of >temperature sensors that can be placed in the brood nest and read from outside >the hive. On second thoughts a gardener's maximim/ minimum thermometer might >suffice. Radio Shack (Tandy) sells a digital indoor/outdoor thermometer for about $15 (US). The outdoor sensor cable is ~5 feet long. Plenty long enough to easily go inside a colony. Since the electronics part was intended to mount indoors, it will have put in a weatherproof box. A small plastic box (cut comb container?) would do nicely. Mount it on the outside of the hive with a piece of Velcro and away you go. bob -- Bob Billson, KC2WZ email: kc2wz@pobox.com second year beekeeper, 2 colonies (so far) bob-bee@pobox.com (\ MS-DOS, you can't live with it. You can live without it. /) {|||8- Linux: the cure for the Windows 95 virus. -8|||} (/ \) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:22:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: bee sting and tnx MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The swelling is almost gone, only a bit tender. The sting yesterday on my arm is almost gone. The doctor said, bee sting therapy seems to be good in some people, but does not recommend it to all. Especially me, as the knee replacement he is going to give me, should not be subjected to any out- side swelling. The body already is not going to be happy about the strange part put in to replace the knee joint, and may try to reject it. He said, give your bees some time off, put empty supers on and leave them for awhile. The bees seem to know to gather honey and pollen on their own, and will do well without my interuption. Ibprohen seems to be the culprit. I was taking a very large dose, so it could have stayed in my system longer. This morning, the bees seemed ready for the day. I was putting sugar/syrup on my 5 new hives, and was brave when one buzzed my ear. I did put up my hand slowly as someone suggested, and it flew away. Many thanks for all the good information from everyone. I don't want to give up my bees. WALT in sunny SC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:30:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford" Subject: Re: Death Camas Flower Comments: cc: Larry Watts In-Reply-To: <352B8ABA.EDE@pwi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is a possibility, but I have not heard of this plant. I am sending this to a discussion list for response. Please respond directly to the email address below. Tom Sanford At 07:33 AM 4/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >Have you heard of any research on this plant. It is definitely poisonous >to humans , horses , cattle and sheep. I'm told by an 84 yr old >beekeeper that it's pollen kills larvae in hives. His associates scoff >at him. I'm just stating beekeeping at 47. I have Death Camas in my area >and would like to do my homework on this. My search of the internet >truns up death camas,but nothing in relationshipo to bees. Thank You >very much for your consideration. Larry Watts >lswatts@pwi.net > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:05:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: aarcher Subject: messages missing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit according to "listserve", we are currently subscribed to bee-l. However, I have not rec any messages since my computer crashed yesterday. (All other e-mails seem to be working ok since the reformat and reinstall of all software). Sorry to have to post to the group, but I wonder what to do. Any suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:24:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Change in your subscription options for the BEE-L list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Obviously, you are either doing something or there are strange things going on since I did not send NOREVIEW to the listserv. What exactly is *No review* of the list? I did send the query and it was not too helpful. Also, NOREVIEW does not seem to be on the refcard. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8c) wrote: > Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:40:16 > > Aaron Morris has just altered your subscription > options for the BEE-L list as per the "SET BEE-L NOREVIEW" command. For > more information about subscription options, send a "QUERY BEE-L" command > to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas D. Harker" Subject: Re: Change in your subscription options for the BEE-L list In-Reply-To: <352C072B.7AA7CDF@clinic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:24 PM 4/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >Aaron, >Obviously, you are either doing something or there are strange things going >on since I did not send NOREVIEW to the listserv. >What exactly is *No review* of the list? I did send the query and it was not >too helpful. Also, NOREVIEW does not seem to be on the refcard. >Bill Truesdell >Bath, ME > >L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8c) wrote: > >> Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:40:16 >> >> Aaron Morris has just altered your subscription >> options for the BEE-L list as per the "SET BEE-L NOREVIEW" command. For >> more information about subscription options, send a "QUERY BEE-L" command >> to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. > For those who didn't follow the instructions in that mailing, here are the results of my options query. It looks like NOREVIEW will allow us to change these. Subscription options for Tom Harker , list BEE-L: MAIL You are sent individual postings as they are received FULLHDR Full (normal) mail headers (formerly "FULLBSMTP") REPRO You receive a copy of your own postings NOACK No acknowledgement of successfully processed postings ----------------------------- Tom - 3 hives in Rockford, IL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:05:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Many subscribers are wondering about the NOREVIEW message they received from LISTSERV regarding BEE-L. The message you received was notification sent from LISTSERV that your subscription option for BEE-L was set by me to NOREVIEW. REVIEW/NOREVIEW options on LISTSERV subscriptions determine whether you can post directly to the list or if your post must first be approved by the list owner. REVIEW means your post must be approved before being posted, NOREVIEW means all your postings have been pre-approved. For the past few days I have been learning how to make BEE-L a moderated list. Let me say up front I have no desire to play net police. However repeated requests that subscribers keep posts "pertinent" and that subscribers keep requoted material to a minimum have been fruitless. The only way to "enforce" these requests is to moderate the list. Since some time last week I have been setting everyone's options to REVIEW when I come into the office, evaluating the impact on the list owner and resetting everyone's options back to NOREVIEW when I leave for the day. When I do this I can use a QUIET option which tells LISTSERV to change the options but don't tell anyone. This afternoon I left off the QUIET option and let the cat out of the bag. I had intended to make full disclosure after I figured out what I am doing. Also let me say that so far I have approved all posts to BEE-L, regardless of content. However in the near future I will begin to discard impertinent postings and will return to senders those postings which contain excessive quotes from previous posts and postings to BEE-L which are more appropriately kept private between two subscribers. I suspect this will be objectionable to some subscribers. However, it is an undenyable fact that fully 40% of what has been posted to the list since April 1 is useless noise. Again, I have no desire to play net police and I strongly object to censorship. But I am no longer willing to put in the work required of a list owner without being able to ensure that the list is top quality. BEE-L has lost many valuable and top notch members of the beekeeping community because it is just simply too noisy. I have had private correspondence with some subscribers regarding this issue. I intended to implement list moderation with the conclusion of the CONFIRM BEE-L exercise, which wraps up on April 15. For those who don't care to remain on a moderated BEE-L there are alternatives. Full instructions will follow. In the meantime, I've let the cat out of the bag, floodgates are open, comments requested, all are welcome. Aaron Morris - thinking damn, should've used the QUIET option! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:07:13 -0700 Reply-To: acuell@hooked.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Armando G. Cuellar, Jr." Organization: ALACO District Attorney Subject: Capturing Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello again from Walnut Creek, California. I want to thank all of you who responded to my cry for help. Also, I'd like to tell you what happened, since many of you were concerned about the bees. I captured the second swarm in a cardboard box and placed it in the same hive with the first swarm. I have monitored the hive and so far, both swarms are coexisitng peacefully. This hive has two deep supers and a shallow on top, so there is plenty of room. I will post follow ups as this hive progresses. Thanks again and next time I will have hives ready to go. Andy Cuellar CATAMA Ranch ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:09:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: Re: bee sting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit george, are there any good anti-inflamatory drugs on the market that I can take , and not get a reaction to bee stings? ---------- > From: GImasterBK > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: bee sting > Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 1:03 PM > > Walt: It was "probably" the very soft tender location. > Had you taken any anti-inflamatory agents, aspirin. ibuprofen, percoset, etc. > in the 24-48 hours prior to the sting? Anti-inflamatory agents negate ones > built up > tolerance of sting trauma. > Why not go out today, make a bee sting the end of your finger, and observe the > results. If your arm swell, so an allergist and hospital today and be > checked. > I get stung on purpose once each day, even Christmas Day, to maintain by built > up immunity (like getting a booster shot once a year for tetanus). Hence, if > I do get 30-50 stings quickly, everything is OK. It helped tremendously when > I worked with AHB in Brazil. > My guess is you are OK, but it is better to inquire and maybe do a tiny self > experiment. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: w_otto@umanitoba.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Warren Otto Organization: The university of Manitoba Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: Amen Aaron. Not that I am a fan of censorship but most of what I get goes straight to the trash b/c it should be sent privately. Warren Otto Still waiting for the pollen to emerge here in Manitoba ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:57 -0700 Reply-To: acuell@hooked.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Armando G. Cuellar, Jr." Organization: ALACO District Attorney Subject: Re: Capturing Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for replying to my call for help. I captured the second swarm and put it in the same box with the first one. So far, both swarms are coexisiting peacefully in the same box.. Next time I will try to be prepared. By the way, do you speak Spanish? Andy Cuellar Carlos Aparicio wrote: > Dear Andy: > > The second swarm shouldn't be preoccupations motive. It will not remain > where it is. At this time, explorers are seeking a place where to establish > the definitive wild beehive, and in little time will be gone. > > Would be perhaps a good idea, that you give them the refuge that they are > seeking, something which would permit you thereinafter to assign it to a box > standard and beguin a beehive. > > To give them that refuge, you do not need a beehive comercial type, but a > common refuge that it can be an invested booth, without floor, or a large > pul pot invested, to a certain height of the soil. > > Regards and luck > > CARLOS APARICIO > > At 08:37 AM 07/04/1998 -0700, Armando G. Cuellar, Jr. wrote: > >Hello from Walnut Creek, California. I am new beekeer ( 5 hives) with a > >question, if anyone can help me. > > > >Two days ago, two of my hives swarmed. I had a hive ready to go, so I > >captured one of the swarms in it and they seem to be doing all right. > >The second swarm collected itself in a ball on the ground in front of > >another one of my hives where it has remained until today. I do not have > >any more hive bodies, so I cannot capture this swarm. My question is > >this: can I put this swarm in with the one that is already in a hive > >box? I would hate to see these guys perish. Please advise, if you have > >the time. > > > >Thanking you in advance, > > > >Andy Cuellar > >CATAMA Ranch > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:21:12 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Censorship comes to BEE-L is there nothing sacred anymore. ---------- > From: Aaron Morris > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: REVIEW/NOREVIEW > Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 11:05 AM > In the meantime, I've let the cat out of the bag, floodgates are open, > comments requested, all are welcome. > > Aaron Morris - thinking damn, should've used the QUIET option! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steven Albritton Subject: Multi swarms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm in Monroe, La and we have had a warm winter. My bees started swarming about 3/15. My landlord and I caught most of them and everything was ok. Now it looks like they are at it again. I removed some frames and put in foundation for them to work on. I have also already added supers. Any ideas on what happened? Supers went on because things had started blooming, but cold snap killed a lot of blooms. These were over wintered hives and 2 are 3rd year hives. Steven Albritton LDS Communications, Sports America, Chauvin Honey Farms Monroe, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:33:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cat in the bag Aaron, Congratulations concern your decision to have a moderated list. Bee-L is real good for sideliners, hobbyists, and commercial beekeepers and some level of moderation will make it an even more positive tool. Now that the cat is out of the bag, I assume you will be telling us some basic rules concerning netiquette that should be observed. I belong to another list of some 800 subscribers that is moderated. This other list has far fewer long original messages that have to be scanned through to get to a thoughtful reply. In addition, it is easy to have private conversations as everyone must sign with their real name and their email address. Finally, while there is no lack of disagreement on various issues raised, the mere presence of the moderator seems to keep everyone polite or maybe I just never see those that are less polite! Lloyd LloydSpear@email.msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds the finest in comb honey production. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: stroope@wt.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jerry stroope Organization: Stroope Bee Subject: "Set Bee-L Repro" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Set Bee-L Repro" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:15:18 -0500 Reply-To: stroope@wt.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jerry stroope Organization: Stroope Bee Subject: [Fwd: Crisis for Commercial Beekeepers] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------748EAFD50B5BEADE5AAAA094" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------748EAFD50B5BEADE5AAAA094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------748EAFD50B5BEADE5AAAA094 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <352BF134.B234FDA8@wt.net> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:50:44 -0500 From: jerry stroope Reply-To: stroope@wt.net Organization: Stroope Bee X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8c)" Subject: Crisis for Commercial Beekeepers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------41F6E87A01A4E4C19EB2EBC6" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------41F6E87A01A4E4C19EB2EBC6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Beekeeper, I just finished a letter to the membership of the Coalition of Maverick Beekeepers "COMB". I realized that it would make a good open letter to the beekeeping industry. Please find the letter attached. 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Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: NOREVIEW In-Reply-To: <980408.170516.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:05 PM 4/8/98 -0400, you wrote: Hi Aaron & Bee Friends, I guess I am about the only bee person in the world that enjoys the list for all the wrong reasons which brings on the moderation of anyone's post. I want to know what other bee people think, matters little to me if they make it in a personal attack on me or mis quote, mis spell or mis interpret what the original thought was. Sad to see any more political correctness imposed on beekeepers for any reason, especially so for a list that ordinates in the USA...be it so it also is a duplication of what Allen is doing for those who don't want for whatever reason to sift the chaff from the grain. I know it bothers some that I write to much or to long, for this I apologize to all, but what I have to say I have never learned how to be any other way then what I am. I also know how some are much bothered by errors in posting to the list. I look at it as part of the growing process of individual posters and want to see nothing done that would prevent anyone from making those early posts even if it means having posts in error.. Life is not all that un cluttered and why should this list be any different. Posters and readers do come and go on this or any list. Maybe they don't find what they are looking for, more times then not if they would take the time to post to the list themselves they would find out better what others are interested in and maybe even some with common interests. But that's the way it is, any list, echo, or news group is going to have a high percentage of "readers" and they will drop in and out at will. If everyone who reads this list were to post on any one subject the list would crash from the shock of the overload, and it has with a lot fewer posters in the past. I appreciate the job of list owner and you have been a good one and I believe what ever you do as for as trying to moderate this list will also be done well, but even the re mailing or mail back of posts which are thought to have been posted in error is an open door to censorship. I believe it is much better to do these things in the open even if it does add to the bulk of the mail as it also lets all of us see what is expected of us so we do not make the same errors. None of us know it all, yet. Hope this was not too long. But if you are calling for a vote I vote NO censorship no matter how it is labeled. ttul, Andy- Los Banos, California for early monthly bee condition reports go to: http://209.76.50.54 you will find them in the 1st Java box, "click" to read (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Guy F. Miller" Subject: Re: NOREVIEW Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I want to know what other bee people think, matters little to me if they >make it in a personal attack on me or mis quote, mis spell or mis interpret >what the original thought was. I tend to agree with Andy. I have a delete key, which dumps things quickly and often. When I see the first few lines of a personal attack I usually conclude that the person who sent it is a jerk and ought to have better manners, but in the end I delete it and forget it. Those things tend to go in cycles, till someone says "enough" and it calms down. I find I can live through the cycles, and in the process I am reminded that human nature goes in cycles. Unless there is a technical problem with capacity or some other compelling reason, I think you ought to let the chips fall where they may and assume that most of us are adept at using the delete key if we find something tedious or not worth reading. Being retired, it is often the only petty sniping I see - I think I would miss it, and might even forget where my delete key is. Whatever you decide is fine with me, but I vote to leave it as it is - warts and all. Guy F. Miller "Start every day with a smile, and get it over with." Charlottesville. VA W.C. Fields ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:10:15 +0000 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Also let me say that so far I have approved all posts to BEE-L, regardless > of content. However in the near future I will begin to discard > impertinent postings and will return to senders those postings which > contain excessive quotes from previous posts and postings to BEE-L > which are more appropriately kept private between two subscribers. > > I suspect this will be objectionable to some subscribers. However, it > is an undenyable fact that fully 40% of what has been posted to the list > since April 1 is useless noise. Again, I have no desire to play net > police and I strongly object to censorship. Hi Aaron and all - It looks like we are going to be turning a corner here on bee-l and I'm not sure how I feel about it as I don't know what it will look like. I, too, agree that there is way too much quoted material sent back to us on replies and wish people would take it upon themselves to learn the points of netiquette to help us all communicate with each other a little easier. I'm not as concerned about this aspect of posts being moderated as I think there is less room for these actions becoming "censorship." I am more concerned though about the postings that are "more appropriately kept private between two subscribers." For the couple of years that I've been on this list I've never felt that it has gotten out of hand in this area. We seem to be able to handle the problems ourselves when things get a little wild. I guess everybody has a different level of what is appropriate but somehow we get through it and we remain civil to one another for the most part. I think Andy makes a good point again too about the option for anyone to join bestofbee if they feel more comfortable with previewed information. Anyway, what ever you decide to do Aaron will be acceptable to me and life will go on. You've handled it (the list) well over the past and I'm sure you will continue to do so. Regards -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:18:00 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: NOREVIEW In-Reply-To: <199804082221.PAA13312@mail.thegrid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I guess it's time to weigh in here. I haven't been just lurking. I've been busy. I have bees coming out the ying yang as they say. Hardly any winter losses (so far) and the beautiful Australian packages that I ordered when I was not so sure of the outcome arriving yesterday and all the new hired help being helpless has kept me running. Not only that, the changes in BEE-L resulted in LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU not recognizing my email address. When I reported that to my ISP they screwed up Best of Bee too -- in their efforts to find the problem. Anyhow, these things too, as they say in the Book, will pass. On to more important THINGs. > I want to know what other bee people think, matters little to me if they > make it in a personal attack on me or mis quote, mis spell or mis > interpret what the original thought was. Sad to see any more political > correctness imposed on beekeepers for any reason, especially so for a > list that ordinates in the USA...be it so it also is a duplication of > what Allen is doing for those who don't want for whatever reason to sift > the chaff from the grain. Andy, I'm with you and so is Aaron. Believe me, Aaron is getting a bum rap here. Aaron has been dragged kicking and screaming to institute some limits on the junk that gets into BEE-L. I don't believe for a minute that he will ever be a censor. He's simply not made for it. Moreover when this whole thing unwinds, there will be a number of diverse people who have to approve posts and if you don't watch out -- you *will* be one :) And believe me it is dam hard work reading *every* post on BEE-L day in and day out, rain or shine, home or away. ...And responding in some way. > I know it bothers some that I write to much or to long, for this I > apologize to all, but what I have to say I have never learned how to be > any other way then what I am. I also know how some are much bothered by > errors in posting to the list. I look at it as part of the growing > process of individual posters and want to see nothing done that would > prevent anyone from making those early posts even if it means having > posts in error.. Life is not all that un cluttered and why should this > list be any different. It's the binaries and the > quote > quote > quote > quote > quote > quote meeetoooo (duh) and minor s*** like that that will be sifted, *not* your epistles (they will be the very last to go) -- or anyone elses. Personally, I am for leaving out the (provincial) US politics and other trivia. but I am sure someone else would pass it through... I can live with that. Just as long as stories about calves and bees get through. Just kidding. > Posters and readers do come and go on this or any list. Maybe they don't > find what they are looking for, more times then not if they would take > the time to post to the list themselves they would find out better what > others are interested in and maybe even some with common interests. But > that's the way it is, any list, echo, or news group is going to have a > high percentage of "readers" and they will drop in and out at will. If > everyone who reads this list were to post on any one subject the list > would crash from the shock of the overload, and it has with a lot fewer > posters in the past. We're working on that. The idea is to be able to keep a larger membership. This list has peaked out (piqued out) at about 800 and those are not all real memberships (I have two). How many people actually read the list?. Not all the subscribers; we know that because we talk about something and the next week someone who has been subscribed since the turn of the current century asks the same thing over again. What we learn from that is that the list is filtered into a folder on many computers and is never read. (I know because I belong to several lists I read once a year. In the meantime email piles up in a folder I never open). How many BEE-L members are doing that? Many, I guess. Hopefully, if the garbage (not opinion and personality) is (r)ejected, people may actually read and understand BEE-L. > I appreciate the job of list owner and you have been a good one and I > believe what ever you do as for as trying to moderate this list will also > be done well, but even the re mailing or mail back of posts which are > thought to have been posted in error is an open door to censorship. *Everything* is an open door to censorship. I guess you have to trust someone sometime. It's not like you have no alternatives. Anyone can start a list. I did. You can start one for nettiquette dropouts and flunkees who like bees if you like. I'll be the first subscriber. Anyhow. Let's give this a chance. And if you are offended by the purity of original thought and the freedom from binaries and If you object loud and long enough, about this you will get to be a moderator. Maybe The Moderator. FWIW, I think you'd be good one. > I believe it is much better to do these things in the open even if it > does add to the bulk of the mail as it also lets all of us see what is > expected of us so we do not make the same errors. None of us know it > all, yet. Hope this was not too long. But if you are calling for a vote I > vote NO censorship no matter how it is labeled. No voting here!!! What do you think this is!!!! A democracy or something? (Surplus !!!!'s courtesy DE who has not used his monthly quota) . Censored censored censored :) Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:33:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Auble1 Subject: Bee Feed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This novice will be getting his first 3lb. package this Saturday (4-11-98). Should pollen substitute be fed along with syrup, or should be held back for the first 2 - 3 weeks? Thanks! P.S. I've got a million more ?'s, but keep learning more form the "posts". ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:45:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff May Subject: PASTEURIZATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD632F.45DA7780" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD632F.45DA7780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable QUESTION...What is the LEGAL process that has to be taken in order = for honey to be considered to be pasteurized?? My understanding of the pasteurization process is to heat a liquid to = a high enough and long enough temperature to kill any harmful bacteria = and to prevent or stop the fermentation process. At times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process = easier....am I in turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time?? The reason I ask is because I have supplied a well know University = with some honey to be used in a study to determine if daily honey use = will indeed help those with allergies. They have since asked me if the = honey supplied was indeed pasteurized and not truly RAW (from comb to = jar) honey. I told them that it was not pasteurized. which in turn they = claimed that because it did not crystallize that it was pasteurized. IT IS NOT MY INTENT TO MAKE ANY FALSE CLAIMS CONCERNING THIS...and = would greatly appreciate the groups help in getting some clarification = on this. Please reply to the group or to my e-mail address. My APOLOGIZES for the lengthy post. Busterb@snet.net ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD632F.45DA7780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   = QUESTION...What=20 is the LEGAL process that has to be taken in order for honey to be = considered to=20 be pasteurized??
   = My=20 understanding of the pasteurization process is to heat a liquid to a = high enough=20 and long enough temperature to kill any harmful bacteria and to prevent = or stop=20 the fermentation process.
    At times=20 I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process easier....am I in = turn=20 pasteurizing my honey at the same time??
    The=20 reason I ask is because I have supplied a well know University with some = honey=20 to be used in a study to determine if daily honey use will indeed help = those=20 with allergies. They have since asked me if the honey supplied was = indeed=20 pasteurized and not truly RAW (from comb to jar) honey. I told them that = it was=20 not  pasteurized. which in turn they claimed that because it did = not=20 crystallize that it was pasteurized.
    IT IS NOT=20 MY INTENT TO MAKE ANY FALSE CLAIMS CONCERNING THIS...and would greatly=20 appreciate the groups help in getting some clarification on this. Please = reply=20 to the group or to my e-mail address.
My APOLOGIZES = for the=20 lengthy post.
Busterb@snet.net ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD632F.45DA7780-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:47:24 -0700 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Bee Feed reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Auble1 asks whether to feed a 3 lb. package with pollen substitute. Reply: I prefer the use of the term supplement because I don't think there is any such thing as a pollen substitute. Just a tiny technical issue. If you talk with other beekeepers in the area that have been around for awhile you can ask them whether sufficient pollen is available from natural sources, or determine which plants are in bloom in the area and check a book about pollen and nectar sources for bees. If in doubt, feed a quarter lb. patty made from Bee Pro with 10% natural pollen added, if you can get it. If you can't, make one from 3 parts low fat soy flour and one part brewers yeast moistened to a dough consistency with honey. If you don't have honey you can use 1:1 sugar/water syrup, but be sure to make the mix the consistency of pancake batter. The dry constituents absorb the moisture from the syrup to become dough-like. Put the mix in waxed paper sandwich bags and place it on the top bars of the frames. If you are starting the package on foundation, feed 1:1 syrup until the bees won't take anymore, or until two deeps (3 westerns) contain drawn comb, which ever occurs first. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:21:17 -0500 Reply-To: BEEMAN52@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Lawrence Subject: Review/No review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hello Aaron (You Wrote) >Again, I have no desire to play net >police and I strongly object to censorship. But I am no longer willing >to put in the work required of a list owner without being able to ensure >that the list is top quality. I am just thankful that we have a place in the Internet that we can talk bees and learn about different problems. I am for you making it as easy as you can on yourself. You have my VOTE which ever way you go. THANKS is not much for what you do but THANKS AGAIN. Ken Ken Lawrence beeman52@worldnet.att.net Trimble, Mo 64492 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:24:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: PASTEURIZATION In-Reply-To: <005301bd6350$cdef7dc0$120d3ccc@jeffmay> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:45 PM 4/8/98 -0400, you wrote: > > At times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process > easier....am I in turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time?? Hi Jeff, Absolutely not! More times then not you are warming the honey to what others consider normal room temperatures such as in the southwest and west which is why we use little heat in our honey houses. Its already too hot to be comfortable in our inside work environment. > > The reason I ask is because I have supplied a well know University with > some honey to be used in a study to determine if daily honey use will indeed > help those with allergies. They have since asked me if the honey supplied was > indeed pasteurized and not truly RAW (from comb to jar) honey. I told them > that it was not pasteurized. which in turn they claimed that because it did > not crystallize that it was pasteurized. First I would not have anything to do with this university or any work they do with honey as their knowledge or better stated prejudices on honey is such that any work they do would be tainted and unreliable. They need to educate themselves on the basic information on honey and you won't live long enough to see that happen. The crystallization of honey is due to the difference in the balance of sugars in certain varieties of honey and has nothing to do with heating or pasteurization at all....Heating honey to melt the crystals will delay the process but not for more then a few months or weeks if the jar is opened and it is a fast granulating honey such as Cotton. Heating and filtration using a filter aid will extend the shelf life several months longer then heating alone because the filter aid is used to remove the microscopic crystals needed to start the crystallization process. The fact is that most honey that is sold in the US as crystallized, processed, creamed, or spreadable is itself pasteurized before seeding and placed in a temperature controlled environment to re-crystallize which takes several weeks. Some honey such as Sage will never crystallize even when seeded with honey crystals even when never heated, and some other honeys will only partially crystallize making a unsightly mess. A least one well know California honey, Blue Curl, will crystallize as it is extracted and build up on the sides of the extractor until it can no longer spin without a good cleaning. And if this honey is green or contains high moisture it then will ferment in the honey drums, having been known to blow the tops off of 55 gal drums when kept in the sun for just a few hours. ttul, the OLd Drone Los Banos, California (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:22:30 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: PASTEURIZATION In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > At times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process > > easier....am I in turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time?? > Absolutely not! More times then not you are warming the honey to what > others consider normal room temperatures such as in the southwest and > west which is why we use little heat in our honey houses. Its already too > hot to be comfortable in our inside work environment. Hmmm. Definitely? Maybe not. Depends what you mean by 'WARM'. Temperatures much over 100 degrees F will have some effect, and by 125 degrees, pasteurization is a certainty after a matter of some hours (I forget how many). If it has been exposed to surface tempertures of much more than 105 or so degrees F, then the honey is not suitable for the tests in question. You may wish to search the logs for 'pasteurized' and/or 'raw' since the matter has been thoroughly and fairly knowledgeably dealt with here some time back. Allen --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:02:02 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Moderation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron, I agree with your actions wholeheartedly. Despite your postings, you stated that since 1 April, about 40% is useles= s noise. I agree. I obtain bee-l in digest and it is easy to see how = much re-quoting is done. It is quite annoying at times. Also the amount= of duplication of posts and some arriving in non-readable forms detracts= from the list. I do not see that you will be censoring, just getting rid of noise and = some of the irrelevant posts. Keep up the good work. I appreciate it. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:40:24 -0700 Reply-To: leonc@telusplanet.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "L.&J. Christensen" Organization: Ikin Enterprises Ltd. Subject: Re: Sorry About the Delay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excerpts from BEE-L wrote: > > Sorry about the lack of posts. > > My ISP was doing some troubleshooting and accidently cut off the flow of > BEE-L mail to my account temporarily. > > I expect to get caught up shortly. > > Allen No problem. Actually the peace has been good for awhile. As long as it's not too long I guess. Leon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:13:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elroy Rogers Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Also let me say that so far I have approved all posts to BEE-L, regardless > of content. However in the near future I will begin to discard > impertinent postings and will return to senders those postings which > contain excessive quotes from previous posts and postings to BEE-L > which are more appropriately kept private between two subscribers. First it will be excessive quotes then duplications that were posted two or three years ago, maybe it will be something that you disagree with. Soon all will be quiet on bee-l and everyone that complained will be happy. There is an old saying one mans trash is another mans treasure. I looked in my trash folder that I hadn't emptied since Feb.1st there are over 1100 post there most from bee-l. I read most of them and enjoyed doing it, as a censored list I wonder if it will be as enjoyable. Since you are not always there who will then decide what will be posted. Will bee-l still be a place where beekeepers can exchange ideas freely or do their ideas have to be proven by research. If I am correct I think there are beekeepers on the list from Russia that know what censorship can be like, hopefully they can weigh in on this. > > > I suspect this will be objectionable to some subscribers. However, it > is an undenyable fact that fully 40% of what has been posted to the list > since April 1 is useless noise. Again, I have no desire to play net > police and I strongly object to censorship. But I am no longer willing > to put in the work required of a list owner without being able to ensure > that the list is top quality. BEE-L has lost many valuable and top > notch members of the beekeeping community because it is just simply too > noisy. I have had private correspondence with some subscribers > regarding this issue. I also know people that will not talk to others because they think they are smarter than them , maybe these top notch beekeepers don't like being question by peons like me. I also have a piece of paper to hang on the wall from a couple of colleges, but I view them as toilet paper now. I hope you don't think this a personal attack on you, as you have seen in some of my past post I hold nothing back if I feel I am right . After all disagreement is good it can shoot down a dumb idea or it can bring to the fore front great ideas. Finally my feeling on this is strong enough that I would rather be unsubscribed than censored. Elroy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:32:07 +0200 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: PASTEURIZATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B9D9D538FA945B1794332D02" --------------B9D9D538FA945B1794332D02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Jeff, pasteurization is defined as partially sterilization of foods by Pasteur's methods. This means heating at a certain temperatur (below 100 0C) for a certain time in order to kill all pathogenic living micro-organisms. Spores aren't killed by this method. Milk for example is sterilized by heating to 71-74 0C for about 40 sec, to 85-90 0C for about 2-4 sec or to 62-65 0C for about 30 minutes. The last method isn't commonly used any more. Jeff May schrieb: > QUESTION...What is the LEGAL process that has to be taken in order > for honey to be considered to be pasteurized?? I've never heard of a necessity to pasteurize honey. The high percentage of sugars in the ripe honey (water content below 19 %) prevents bacterial living and multiplying. > .... At times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process > easier....am I in turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time?? This depends on the time and temperatur you use for liquifying the cristalized honey. > The reason I ask is because I have supplied a well know University > with some honey to be used in a study to determine if daily honey use > will indeed help those with allergies. They have since asked me if the > honey supplied was indeed pasteurized and not truly RAW (from comb to > jar) honey. I told them that it was not pasteurized. which in turn > they claimed that because it did not crystallize that it was > pasteurized. Crystallization depends on the age of the honey, its ingredients (pollen), the ratio of its sugars (mainly fructose and glucose) and so on. If you heat your honey to long and to high you will destroy not only bacteria but also some of its enzymes. Whether there is a excessive heating of the honey can be find out by measuring the activity of its enzymes. This is a standardized method. Sincerely Reimund ___________________________ Beekeeper in Germany (Bavaria) Queen Rearing of Carniolan Bees Insemination Station ___________________________ --------------B9D9D538FA945B1794332D02 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jeff,

pasteurization is defined as partially sterilization of foods by Pasteur's methods. This means heating at a certain temperatur (below 100 °C) for a certain time in order to kill all pathogenic living micro-organisms. Spores aren't killed by this method. Milk for example is sterilized by heating
    to 71-74 °C for about 40 sec,
    to 85-90 °C for about 2-4 sec or
    to 62-65 °C for about 30 minutes.
The last method isn't commonly used any more.

Jeff May schrieb:

    QUESTION...What is the LEGAL process that has to be taken in order for honey to be considered to be pasteurized??
I've never heard of a necessity to pasteurize honey. The high percentage of sugars in the ripe honey (water content below 19 %) prevents bacterial living and multiplying.
.... At times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process easier....am I in turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time??
This depends on the time and temperatur you use for liquifying the cristalized honey.
The reason I ask is because I have supplied a well know University with some honey to be used in a study to determine if daily honey use will indeed help those with allergies. They have since asked me if the honey supplied was indeed pasteurized and not truly RAW (from comb to jar) honey. I told them that it was not  pasteurized. which in turn they claimed that because it did not crystallize that it was pasteurized.
Crystallization depends on the age of the honey, its ingredients (pollen), the ratio of its sugars (mainly fructose and glucose) and so on.

If you heat your honey to long and to high you will destroy not only bacteria but also some of its enzymes. Whether there is a excessive heating of the honey can be find out by measuring the activity of its enzymes. This is a standardized method.

Sincerely

Reimund
___________________________
Beekeeper in Germany (Bavaria)
Queen Rearing of Carniolan Bees
Insemination Station
___________________________ --------------B9D9D538FA945B1794332D02-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:35:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Mad Bee Syndrome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I was listening (in a dozing manner), to the BBC Radio 4 ToDay Program this morning at about 7 o'clock, when there was mention of bees dying in large numbers as the result - I believe - of some new type of crop spraying. It was referred to as 'Mad Bee Syndrome'. I did hear of a figure of 60% drop in honey production as the result of large numbers of bees becoming disorientated and being unable to find the hive. Perhaps some of our UK members who may have heard the broadcast may be able to throw some more light on it. If it is true it sounds awful. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:51:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WARRINGTON APIARIES Subject: Re: Suburban Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:38 6/4/1998 -0600, you wrote: >From: WUhlman >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > >I've had two hives on my deck (on my 50 ft. downtown lot on Queen Anne Hill) >here in Seattle for three years---no problems at all. I believe that there are hives in the roof of the Paris Opera in France and they sell the honey in the giftshop to the opera lovers. <><><><><><><><><> David Warr (\ (\ (\ Beekeeper {|||8< {||||8< {|||||8< Warrington (/ (/ (/ England Volant, faciunt, floremus <><><><><><><><><> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:17:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Review/NoReview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Aaron Well done - let us use this list as intelligent beekeepers Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:29:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David W Oakes Subject: Remove /noremove MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Aaron, I read all the posts and have since I first discovered the list. I have appreciated all those who contribute as I have learned so much and I print all the information that is of value to me. I like the "fresh air" once in a while as it seems natural to stray into other subjects occasionally. I recognize that not all beekeepers like to stray, but it does break the trend and soon the list goes back to normal( beekeeping concepts) My grandmother had a saying, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". Personally I enjoy reading the "play" as it maintains our humanness, add "spice etc." I am addicted to the Bee-L list and those who post-no matter what they say. If I could vote- let the crudd float Thanks for listening GBYA Dave In Indiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:35:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, I belong to several newsgroups. One pair is moderated the other is not. You can see the same sort of posts on both. But the unmoderated has about one third more posts. That extra third is mostly flames and worthless. The unmoderated list has threads that wander far from the subject of the list and from the origional thread. A rule of thumb on the unmoderated list is that when you see Nazi in the text the thread has run its course. I am in favor of a moderated list. It will bring a little discipline - I need it, especially on quotes- and temperance. Netequette will be learned, and if anyone really wants an umoderated list, do what those who objected to a moderator on the newsgroup I subscribed to. Start your own. But be prepared to invest a lot of your life and time to it. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Walter Patton wrote: > Censorship comes to BEE-L is there nothing sacred anymore. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:34:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WUhlman Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hooray! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:58:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Fw: Capturing Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Armando G. Cuellar, Jr. > Subject: Capturing Swarms > Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 4:37 PM > > Two days ago, two of my hives swarmed. I had a hive ready to go, so I > captured one of the swarms in it and they seem to be doing all right. > The second swarm collected itself in a ball on the ground in front of > another one of my hives where it has remained until today. I do not have > any more hive bodies, so I cannot capture this swarm. My question is > this: can I put this swarm in with the one that is already in a hive > box? . Please advise, if you have the time. > Andy Cuellar > CATAMA Ranch I have. in the past, been in the same position and have found that if the two swarms occur within a couple of days of each other. There does not seem to be anu problem in putting the second swarm into the same box as the first. The bees seem to sort themselves out without too much difficulty. If there is a longer delay between mixing the swarms, then fighting may start and lots of bees could be killed. Ruary Rudd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:06:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BCULTURE Subject: Dealing with Zoning Boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, The Ohio State Beekeeper's Association, in conjunction with a medium sized, urban Ohio community, is developing what we hope is a model ordinance for cities, and beekeepers, at least for Ohio. Much has been said here re suburban beekeeping and common sense, and I have made it available to those in the process of developing this ordinance. However, we are also looking for exisiting ordinances that focus on this aspect of nusiance claims, irrate neighbors, water rights, etc., etc. If you live in a community that already has an ordinance, good or bad, relative to honey bees, beekeeping, performaing an agricultural business within the boundires of a city or town, or whatever, we would be pleased to contact your zoning board to obtain a copy. Or, if you can, send or email a copy to us. Once complete we will supply a copy of what we came up with to anyone who wants one to use, or not, locally. A growing concern amoung beekeepers in some locations is to preempt a restrictive ordinance rather than have to react to one. That is our goal here. Any help will be appreciated, as has all the information presented already. Of course the other side of the coin says let sleeping dogs lie, don't rock the boat, etc. etc. etc. There is some truth, and some logic in this reasoning, However, we feel that the urban crunch is escalating to such a degree that these confrontations can no longer be ignored. Thus our actions. Please send any correspondance directly to me rather than clutter the list with some more of the same. Please send any information to; Kim Flottum OSBA President 7011 Spieth Road Medina, OH 44256 330.722.2021 eves 800.289.7668 ext 3214 days or email me directly at kim@airoot.com Thanks for any help. We will be sharing our results fairly soon. Kim Flottum OSBA President ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:16:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WUhlman Subject: Re: Dealing with Zoning Boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit We have excellent ordinances here in Seattle & King County ( one for each- slightly different) : Seattle : Ordinance 101531 King County : Ordinance 3633 Each jurisdiction will be pleased to send you a copy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:48:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: PASTEURIZATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01BD6394.479E2CA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BD6394.479E2CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope those who "know" will respond to this, and include me in the = response if they choose to not respond to the entire list. I don't = "know", but would like to learn. We have a medical college in the area and I was just contacted by a = newly-hired thoracic surgeon. His wife has severe asthma. This is the = fourth time they have moved and they have found that her allergies can = only be controlled at the new location by using "raw, unfiltered, = unheated" honey for at least 3 months prior to moving. I produce a fair = amount comb honey every year. Combs that are defective are crushed, = strained, and bottled without any heat. While I only have 500-1,000 = pounds of this jar honey to sell every year, I guess word has spread = enough so that I got this reference. Others have told me that because I = don't heat the honey and it is not filtered through very fine mesh that = pollen and "other stuff" is retained, whereas it is lost when the honey = is even moderately heated and filtered to produce a crystal clear = product. I have not previously paid a lot of attention to those = statements, but when they come from a physician, it has caused me to = wonder... I have no interest in making any claims for my honey, and it certainly = couldn't qualify as "organic", but I am curious and would like to learn = more. Lloyd LloydSpear@email.msn.com -----Original Message----- From: Jeff May To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 8:48 PM Subject: PASTEURIZATION =20 =20 QUESTION...What is the LEGAL process that has to be taken in = order for honey to be considered to be pasteurized?? My understanding of the pasteurization process is to heat a = liquid to a high enough and long enough temperature to kill any harmful = bacteria and to prevent or stop the fermentation process. At times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process = easier....am I in turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time?? The reason I ask is because I have supplied a well know = University with some honey to be used in a study to determine if daily = honey use will indeed help those with allergies. They have since asked = me if the honey supplied was indeed pasteurized and not truly RAW (from = comb to jar) honey. I told them that it was not pasteurized. which in = turn they claimed that because it did not crystallize that it was = pasteurized. IT IS NOT MY INTENT TO MAKE ANY FALSE CLAIMS CONCERNING = THIS...and would greatly appreciate the groups help in getting some = clarification on this. Please reply to the group or to my e-mail = address. My APOLOGIZES for the lengthy post. Busterb@snet.net ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BD6394.479E2CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I hope those who "know" = will respond=20 to this, and include me in the response if they choose to not respond to = the=20 entire list.  I don't "know", but would like to=20 learn.
 
We have a medical college in the area and I was just = contacted=20 by a newly-hired thoracic surgeon.  His wife has severe = asthma.  This=20 is the fourth time they have moved and they have found that her = allergies can=20 only be controlled at the new location by using "raw, unfiltered,=20 unheated" honey for at least 3 months prior to moving.  I = produce a=20 fair amount comb honey every year.  Combs that are defective are = crushed,=20 strained, and bottled without any heat.  While I only have = 500-1,000 pounds=20 of this jar honey to sell every year, I guess word has spread enough so = that I=20 got this reference.  Others have told me that because I don't heat = the=20 honey and it is not filtered through very fine mesh that pollen and = "other=20 stuff" is retained, whereas it is lost when the honey is even = moderately=20 heated and filtered to produce a crystal clear product.  I have not = previously paid a lot of attention to those statements, but when they = come from=20 a physician, it has caused me to wonder...
 
I have no interest in making any claims for my = honey, and it=20 certainly couldn't qualify as "organic", but I am curious and = would=20 like to learn more.
Lloyd 
LloydSpear@email.msn.com
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Jeff May <Busterb@snet.net>
To: = BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU = <BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU>Date:=20 Wednesday, April 08, 1998 8:48 PM
Subject:=20 PASTEURIZATION

  =20 QUESTION...What is the LEGAL process that has to be taken in order = for honey=20 to be considered to be pasteurized??
   My=20 understanding of the pasteurization process is to heat a liquid to a = high=20 enough and long enough temperature to kill any harmful bacteria and = to=20 prevent or stop the fermentation process.
    At=20 times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process = easier....am I in=20 turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time??
    The=20 reason I ask is because I have supplied a well know University with = some=20 honey to be used in a study to determine if daily honey use will = indeed help=20 those with allergies. They have since asked me if the honey supplied = was=20 indeed pasteurized and not truly RAW (from comb to jar) honey. I = told them=20 that it was not  pasteurized. which in turn they claimed that = because=20 it did not crystallize that it was = pasteurized.
    IT IS=20 NOT MY INTENT TO MAKE ANY FALSE CLAIMS CONCERNING THIS...and would = greatly=20 appreciate the groups help in getting some clarification on this. = Please=20 reply to the group or to my e-mail address.
My = APOLOGIZES for the=20 lengthy post.
Busterb@snet.net ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BD6394.479E2CA0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:23:04 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Free Speech and the Abuse Thereof In-Reply-To: <352C7510.4926E06E@starpoint.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > First it will be excessive quotes then duplications that were posted two > or three years ago, maybe it will be something that you disagree with... Gee, some of you guys can sure take a giant leap and read a whole lot into something that is simply not there. He means exactly what he says and no more. > ...Finally my feeling on this is strong enough that I would rather be > unsubscribed than censored. Give me a break. This is not 'Give me Liberty or give me Death'. This is a small administrative change in one internet mailing list. And, moreover, this small change is exactly what Aaron says it is and nothing more. Just because Aaron and/or a panel of moderators may return posts to the sender if they do not meet reasonable standards of consideration for the list and others does not in any way imply or mean that he plans censorship. I assume that once such posts are repaired and re-posted they will be relayed via the listserv. Are you in favour of no speed limits, safety or pollution standards for vehicles, and no limits to vehicle weights and widths on a highway? I think not. Do you like multiple copies of large binaries, huge mangled posts and blank posts in your mailbox? I think not. Are you proud of BEE-L logs and digests that are too large to download and unreadable after they are retrieved due to binaries and HTML content? Do you care? That is what this is about. And without some control point, one day soon SPAM too will come to BEE-L. It is only a matter of time. Personally I am for eliminating more than such simple abuse of the list. I favour stronger moderation, but Aaron is a staunch supporter of free speech and will likely to allow the list to continue to pass on a lot of drivel and misinformation without comment -- as he has for years. Shucks. The news of these contemplated changes has been released prematurely, as Aaron has been experimenting with the (badly documented) LISTSERV commands in the background to find the capabilities of the system. LISTSERV has some pretty good features -- as we found out in regards the search features some time back. It also has ways that allow control of accidental or deliberate abuse of the list -- and that is what is being worked on. We've had some problems in the past and can see that it will get worse in the future. We don't want someone posting a copy of Netscape to the list (10 MB or so in size) and have that sent to eveyone. Imagine 800 people having to wait a few hours for their mail to download. At any rate, before we start attacking Aaron, let's think about this: who here besides Aaron has done one material thing to ensure the survival and growth of BEE-L? Who has quietly and selflessly donated time to do the dirty work to keep the thing running on a daily basis? As a list owner myself, I can assure you that the costs in time, cash and effort are not trivial. As far as I am concerned, Aaron has a perfect right to shut down the list any day if he likes and no one has a right to say one word about it. Moreover, as things now stand, if Aaron gets hit by a truck, BEE-L is dead in a week or two. Every BEE-L member, without exception is riding for free on Aaron's good will and generosity. Many appreciate it, however, for reasons I don't begin to understand, a few act like they own this list and take the time to excoriate him for trying to improve it and to even imply impure intentions. Let's have some respect. If some members have irrational fears of persecution, how about discussing them as such? Let not post accusations and imputations against the honesty and integrity of a man who has served us all this time almost silently, and for free. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:18:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: Re: Bee Feed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit feed sugar syrup 1:1 ratio to stimulate wax producing and brrod rearing. Do it NOW, and don't let the sugar syrup run out for at least a month, or until foundation is drawn and filled. ---------- > From: Auble1 > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Bee Feed > Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 8:33 PM > > This novice will be getting his first 3lb. package this Saturday (4-11-98). > Should pollen substitute be fed along with syrup, or should be held back for > the first 2 - 3 weeks? > > > Thanks! > > P.S. I've got a million more ?'s, but keep learning more form the "posts". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Graham Subject: Moderated List? Hip Hip Hooray! 3 cheers for Aaron!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Unfotuneately a necessary evil. Great move. I was on the verge of chuking the towel in. !N3 -- ------------------------- Posted on 04/09/98 at 17:32 GMT. From Strathclyde in Scotland. ------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:07:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kenn Tuckey Subject: Re: Granulation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In your case is it really a matter of what is "legal" or of what is needed for the work being done? I suspect that Allen is right and that your heating may spoil the work being studied. For "legal" you should refer to your national (US?) standards. Here in Canada the 1996 Honey Regualtions define quote: "pasteurized", in relation to honey, means treated in a registered pasteurizing palnt by the controlled application of heat so that the honey is free of viable sugar-tolerant yeasts; - end of quote. On page 902 the 1992 edition of The Hive and the Honey Bee shows a table based on Townsend's work that shows the time and temperature relationships required to kill yeasts in honey - presumably then this is pasteurization. Degrees F. Time in Minutes 125 470 130 170 135 60 140 22 145 7.5 150 2.8 155 1.0 Draw your own conclusions Kenn Tuckey Provincial Apiculturist, Alberta Agriculture, Food and Rural Development 17507 - Fort Road, R.R. #6, Edmonton, AB T5B 4K3 Phone 403-415-2314 Fax: 403-422-6096 Mailto:tuckey@agric.gov.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:52:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Moderation is not censorship! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Patton wrote: > Censorship comes to BEE-L is there nothing sacred anymore. From Webster's: 1cen-sor 1: one of two magistrates of early Rome... 2: an official who examines publications for objectionable matter b: an official who reads communications and deletes forbidden material. 3 archaic: a faultfinding critic 4: the psychic agency that represses unacceptable notions before they reach consciousness My comments: 1: Ain't never been to Rome! 3: I have no faults! ;) 4: If I did have a fault it would be that I don't have enough grey matter to be psychic! So that leaves number 2 - I HATE number two (parents of young children will get that joke). Anyway, "An official who examines publications for objectionable matter (and/or) who reads communications and deletes forbidden material". Those who know me know there is very little I find objectionable and I let laws tell me what is forbidden. Folks who read my posts already know what I find objectionable, but for the record I restate. 1) I object to quoted material. Most times a poster includes many lines of background to pose a one or two line question. Subsequent responses quote the entirety of the original to offer a two line answer. Responses to the subsequent responses proliferate the offense to the point that there is actually VERY LITTLE substance in the majority of posts. This is not a value judgment on my part, it's an indisputable fact based on an unbiased review of BEE-L archives. Once moderation is in effect, posts that include entire quotes of previous posts will be returned to sender with a request that THEY edit their post to remove superfluous requoted material and resubmit their response, at which time it will be approved. Let me give an example, and the names used in no way reflect any references to people either real of fictional, living or dead. Tom (tom@anywhere.com) posts: BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, and on and on and on for twenty lines, and yada yada yada, so what I really want to know is what color should I paint my hive? Dick (dick@useless.gov) answers: > Tom (tom@anywhere.com) wrote: > > BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, and on and on and on for twenty lines, and yada yada > yada, so what I really want to know is what color should I paint my > hive? > BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, well actually in the south we say BLAAAAAAAHHHHHHH, BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH, BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, and yaDAH, yaDAH, yaDAH and on and on and on for 30 lines, so paint your hives white! Then Jane (Jane@tarzans.tree.house) responds: > Dick (dick@use.less.gov) wrote: > > > Tom (tom@anywhere.com) wrote: > > > > BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, and on and on and on for twenty lines, and yada > > yada yada, so what I really want to know is what color should I > > paint my hive? > > > > BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, well actually in the south we say BLAAAAAAAHHHHHHH, > BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH, BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, and yaDAH, yaDAH, > yaDAH and on and on for 30 lines, so paint your hives white! I think pink hives are prettier than white! >>> End of Example. So in this example, Tom asks a question that is answered in ANY beginning beekeeping text. Over 150 lines have been wasted in responses that really are a matter of opinion with little fact. However, as moderator I would approve Tom's original post, I would return to Dick his response with a request that he resubmit it as follows: "Tom@anywhere.com asked what color to paint his hives. Here in the south, white is a good color but other colors are acceptable, especially in other areas" and I would return to Jane her post requesting that she offer her response without all the quoted material. Jane's response could be: "Tom asked what color to paint his hives, and Dick responded 'white'. Tarzan and I like pink, Cheetah does too!" Now as far I'm concerned the content of these posts is garbage, but I'll allow them all, however Dick and Jane will HAVE to change their writing style. I have not stymied their rights to free speech, I have enforce my request that unnecessary requoting of previously posted material be kept to a minimum. After a while and a few returned posts, everyone will learn proper netiquette that requoting is bad and this number one problem will become a non-problem. 2) I object to responses to the list that should go to individuals. A prime example was the call for a Christian Beekeepers List (CBL). I am not a heathen, neither am I a devout church attendee. I would not have stopped the call to create a CBL (unless of course it quoted an entire previous post). However, the original post suggesting the CBL requested all responses via private E-Mail. Any guesses how much wasted time and space was spent flaming or praising John's suggestion? ALL responses to the list regarding CBL would have been returned to the sender pointing out that the original poster requested private responses. 3) BINARIES and FILE ATTACHMENTS! All binary files and file attachments will be returned to sender. BEE-L is NOT a homogonous list that looks the same to everyone, everywhere. There are some subscribers who are not able to read these files! Repeatedly, requests have been made to advertise the availability of binaries to everyone so those who want them can go get them. The only way to enforce this request is via a moderated list. Hey Jerry! Your latest COMB letter - know what? I'd love to read it. Know what? Your attachment was unreadable by my editor, especially because I get BEE-L in digest format not as individual mail items. What I got from your post was that you wrote a letter which I can't read. Availability can be advertised but binaries cannot be posted. If I can't read 'em I won't approve 'em. I can easily enforce this by simply implementing a size limit on postings. 4) FLAMES! Keep it civil. This is not to say that we can't disagree, we SHOULD disagree. But name calling belongs in the play ground sandbox and we all should know the difference. Those who don't won't get through. 5) SERVICE REQUESTS GO TO THE SERVER, POSTS GO TO THE LIST!!! Any service requests posted to the list will not be approved. More responses to others' postings: Andy Nachbaur wrote: "I guess I am about the only bee person in the world that enjoys the list for all the wrong reasons which brings on the moderation of anyone's post...." Again, I have no intention to block anyone's right to say what they want. Although long winded I have never found Andy's posts offensive or inflammatory. Rather I have found them to be thought provoking and challenging. Andy takes classes of beekeepers (researchers, government officials, honey boards, hell, EVERYBODY!) to task, but he has never been disrespectful to anybody. Any yes, this is IMHO. Spelling? I cood kar less! Haven't the time to check it and actually I enjoy the flavor. Grammar? I don't care if well advice is offered good as long as the advice is sound. Verbose? I can delete faster than I can read, I suspect we all can. However as moderator, by the time I get to the point of approving or not, I've already read it. Setting REVIEW/NOREVIEW is reserved for list owners, which is why no one has seen it referenced in the LISTSERV REFCARD. NOREVIEW grants "preapproval" to any subscribers' postings. For users whom I am confident will follow the five items outlined above (minimal quoting, private vs public responses, no binary or file attachments, no flames, service requests to the server) I can set their subscription options to NOREVIEW. The more NOREVIEW subscribers, the less work I have to do. I WANT subscribers set to NOREVIEW! In a perfect world everyone would follow proper netiquette and there would be no need for REVIEW. Guy F. Miller wrote: " ... Unless there is a technical problem with capacity or some other compelling reason, I think you ought to let the chips fall where they may...." There IS a compelling reason, time and money. Requotes take time and cost money! Time to download, which also costs some subscribers real dollars - SIGNIFICANT dollars. Other concerns include the time to read (or skip over), costly storage medium to archive, and MANY reasons that may not be apparent to those who read and discard. There are many issues that aren't apparant from the perspective of a single subscriber that are of concern to a list owner or system administrator. I am the owner of BEE-L, but I am also the system administrator for the system on which it resides. I am approaching this issue not only from the perspective of a single subscriber on a single list, I am approaching it from the position of one responsible for thousands of applications on a machine that supports and serves tens of thousands of customers. I also realize that some (many?) mailers simply quote articles in their entirety as the default. I know when I use Pegasus mail I have to go out of my way to make it NOT requote that to which I am responding. But I have learned how to do it, I will help others to learn (if I can, I know I don't know it all) and it is my belief that moderating BEE-L will affect the changes in subscribers' piece of cyberspace to make this list (and others on which BEE-L subscribers participate) better lists. Barry Birkey wrote: "It looks like we are going to be turning a corner here on bee-l and I'm not sure how I feel about it as I don't know what it will look like....". This is a very important point, I too don't know how this will change the list although I believe it will be for the better. I hope all subscribers will at least stick it out until May 1 to at least see. Unfortunately some have already bailed out - sent the SIGNOFF command to the list, which was caught by the moderator, who honored their request and signed them off. But this is NOT a censorship issue, it's a LEARNING issue. I was the first to use the "C" word, I'm smart enough to have seen it coming. But as Barry put it, "I wish people would take it upon themselves to learn the points of netiquette to help us all communicate with each other a little easier." There are MANY more comments that have been made, both on list and to me privately. I simply have not had time to respond to them all. I hope that those who wrote to me privately will find their queries answered in this public forum. I hope that those who voiced concerns are reassured that this will continue to be a PUBLIC, OPEN forum, and I hope that my belief that moderation will improve the caliber of this list proves to be correct. Aaron Morris - thinking moderation can be a good thing, if not over indulged :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:08:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Maddux Subject: Re: Moderation is not censorship! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please moderate these moderation threads. Enough already. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:16:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: EAS Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! This is the listing of rooms available at the Seven Springs Hotel: Sunday July 12th-52 rooms Monday July 13th-77 rooms Tuesday July 14th-77 rooms Wednesday July 15th-252 rooms Thursday July 16th-252 rooms Friday July 17th-152 rooms This is VERY important: if you decide to call Seven Springs, you will not get the discounted prices unless you mention you are going to the EAS Conference!!.. Herb (Midnitebee) Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:21:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: telephone number MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit beepoop..forgot to tell you the phone number for Seven Springs! 1-800-452-2223 all the EAS information is at my web site..http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:29:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rett Thorpe Subject: Re: Moderation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I apologize to Greg who has had enough of the moderation thread, however this effects us all and we need to iron out as many wrinkles as we can before the moderation begins. Aaron, I thank you for the description of how you visualize this working, however something you wrote brought up another question. You mentioned that posts that are of a personal nature do not belong on the list (the Christian beekeeping replies). Often people will post a question to the list, and because they dont want to take up "List Time" they ask to be responded to privately. I assume some people honor this request while others respond to the list. I know that many individuals read with interest these so called private issues and many of us beginners gain much knowledge from them. Any thoughts on this? Rett Thorpe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:02:50 +0300 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marian Pintilie Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Elroy > If I am correct I think there are > beekeepers on the list from Russia that know what censorship can be like, > hopefully they can weigh in on this. > I am glad you said it I live not in Russia , but near enough. If you ask my oppinion I can say that deleting messages like "signoff" , "search Bee-l" or "me too" is not censorship, but cleaning. I am not quite sure about personal messages. I think that if are bee related should be let to pass. The same should pass flames. A little relaxation is not bad. But excesive quote and long binaries should returned to sender with a manual of netiqette attached. After few returns the one who made the mistake will learn. I have a connection faster than many of you westerners, (even for me is very expensive) , but even so I am not happy to waste minutes online because somebodyelse made a mistake, or do not care. > > > Finally my feeling on this is strong enough that I would rather be unsubscribed > than censored. > > Elroy For the real censorship you are right. But do not forget that censorship can have a lot of names. Only few of us do not censor ourselves. When we do not use the same words in public as in private, is named education. The censorhip I expect from Aaron is named cleaning. Costel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:05:09 +0300 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marian Pintilie Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Patton wrote: > > Censorship comes to BEE-L is there nothing sacred anymore. > > This is censorship? First you should live in a totalitarian country and next speak. Is not late to ask the one who lived what is. Some are still living it but you cannot ask them. (Hey Aaron how are you doing your job? This message should not pass through your gates.) (i'm joking) Costel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:56:30 +0300 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marian Pintilie Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron and everybody. I agree with moderating.It is better that one person will delete trash instead of 600. Maybe I'll miss the enjoyable flames. I do not fear of censorship. If somebody will not agree with the decision of moderator can come back with a new message tryng to convince him that the message should be released. If the moderator is stubborn or canot be covinced in that moment, than the censored person can write privately to all members of bee-l. Obviously will must work a little, but if he think that his voice must be heared wil worth. Yours Costel Pintilie > > In the meantime, I've let the cat out of the bag, floodgates are open, > comments requested, all are welcome. > > Aaron Morris - thinking damn, should've used the QUIET option! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:43:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Moderation - responding to Rett Thorpe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Rett Thorpe wrote: " ... posts that are of a personal nature .... Often people will post a question to the list, and because they dont want to take up "List Time" they ask to be responded to privately...." Well, I think the best way to handle this is for the one requesting private responses to provide to the list a summary of the private responses they receive. Tom Barrett did this quite nicely last week regarding "Suburban Beekeeping". Aaron Morris - thinking many hands make light work (and better BEE-L)! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:53:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Moderation - Responding to Elroy Rogers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Elroy Rogers asked: > "Since you are not always there who will then decide what will be > posted. Will BEE-L still be a place where beekeepers can exchange > ideas freely...?" I have not decided how to handle things when I am away. I can easily set everyone to NOREVIEW (preapproval) when I am away. However, as long as I am at the helm BEE-L will ALWAYS "be a place where beekeepers can exchange ideas freely...?" > ... maybe these top notch beekeepers don't like being questioned > by peons like me.... If they can't take the heat they'll get out of the kitchen. Unfortunately, many have. And you should really do something about your self image problem ;) > Finally my feeling on this is strong enough that I would rather be > unsubscribed than censored. That's your choice. If you exercise that option please remember that service requests go to the server, posts go to the list. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:02:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Emily M. Pruyn" Subject: Re: NOREVIEW Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:18 PM 4/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I guess it's time to weigh in here. And so, I guess, being a very new subscsriber to the list, I have been lurking, and absorbing everything that I can in the month that I have been here. My 2 packages of bees are scheduled to arrive this weekend. I have built two *gorgeous* hives for the girls to live in. I have situated my beeyard according to all the good information that I gleened from reading all the posts of the last month (especially looking forward to, and settling in for some good info when I see Andy N. in the header). I have not posted to date, because I really had nothing to say, and no informed questions to ask. I do appreciate not having to wade through a whole copied posting before getting to the answers/comments that are new. (Andy said) ... >> I want to know what other bee people think, matters little to me if they >> make it in a personal attack on me or mis quote, mis spell or mis >> interpret what the original thought was. I really do enjoy your posts. You're giving this new beekeeper the feeling of a good foundation upon which to go forward. I think this is important. >It's the binaries and the >> quote >> quote >> quote >> quote >> quote >> quote > meeetoooo (duh) YES,YES How many people actually read >the list?. ME!, ME! ...... But if you are calling for a vote I >> vote NO censorship no matter how it is labeled. I agree. Emily Emily M. Pruyn emlake@aerodyne.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:06:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harold Falcon Subject: Bee behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I read Allen's account of bee temperment from location to location, however, I have a situation where my bees seem to change from year to year. For instance, last year the bees were so gentle that they didn't seem to care what I did; this year I'm being attacked at distances of 50 feet or more without provacation. Anyone have suggestions why this is happening? Harold hfalcon@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:25:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bee Behavior - response to Harold Falcon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Harold Falcon asked: > ... last year the bees were so gentle that they > didn't seem to care what I did; this year I'm being attacked at > distances of 50 feet or more without provacation. Anyone have > suggestions why this is happening? Harold This is an easy one, your gentle queen was superseeded by a naturally mated queen. I'd speculate further that your original queen was a hybrid, bred for gentleness. First generations from hybrids are notoriously fierce. There may be a requeening in your future. Recommend marked queens so you can be sure if/when your purchased queens have been replaced. There's lots in the archives regarding ways to requeen fierce hives. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:29:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK Subject: Re: Bee behavior Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Do you MARK your queen? If not, your present queen is probably a daughter of your previous queen, and whoever she bred to may have a nasty temperament. Very elementary bee genetics: the worker bee's temperament is determined by her parents. I suggest you requeen, and surely with a marked queen. If you cannot mark yourself, a queen breeder usually charges 50 cents to do it. George ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:15:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harold, It also could be skunks. They can rile a hive up so the bees will meet you well away from the hives. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Harold Falcon wrote: > For instance, last year the bees were so gentle that they > didn't seem to care what I did; this year I'm being attacked at > distances of 50 feet or more without provacation. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elroy Rogers Subject: Re: Moderation - Responding to Aaron Morris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I have not decided how to handle things when I am away. I can easily > set everyone to NOREVIEW (preapproval) when I am away. However, as long > as I am at the helm BEE-L will ALWAYS "be a place where beekeepers can > exchange ideas freely...?" Okay can I give a suggestion, leave everyone to NOREVIEW if some one sends an email that are too long and repetitive send them a warning. If they do it again set them to REVIEW for a month. Afterwards they can join the rest of us to NOREVIEW. You can always put them right back on REVIEW if they continue in there erroneous ways. Don't put us all in beekeepers kindergarten. I post a lot of time at night so if I am set to review the post may not get posted until the next day, which maybe no fault of my own . Since you said yourself you have no wish to be moderator, this could save you a lot of time reading a lot of post that wouldn't be necessary. Also others on the list could help by sending you an email that someone posted that wasn't appropriate. I am afraid once you start down the path of moderator your going to get a lot of complaints and request to stop someone else from posting. > > > > ... maybe these top notch beekeepers don't like being questioned > > by peons like me.... > > If they can't take the heat they'll get out of the kitchen. > Unfortunately, many have. And you should really do something about your > self image problem ;) > I can see you can keep your sense of humor through this. Elroy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:39:07 +0000 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Short Course on Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI ------------------------------- University of Illinois Short Course on Bees and Beekeeping Saturday and Sunday, August 8-9, 1998 Lectures, hands-on workshops, and informal discussions on: Introduction to beekeeping / Pesticides & bees / Bee anatomy Mite biology & management / Honey processing & marketing / Queen rearing Bee diseases / Honey as a neutraceutical / Breeding & genetics Swarm control Honey ID by pollen / Sting allergies Wintering in the Midwest / Bumble bee pollination / Colony organization PLUS: Bee experiment: Participants can join a research team and study bee behavior. "Birds-of-a-Feather" dinners: Small groups of participants will dine at restaurants on Saturday evening with a course instructor for spirited discussion on selected topics. French-style gourmet honey tasting: Honeys from around the world Speakers: Prof. May Berenbaum, Dept. of Entomology, Univ. Illinois Prof. Marion Ellis, Extension Apiculturist, Univ. Nebraska Jerry Hayes, Columnist, American Bee Journal Prof. Gene Robinson, Dept. of Entomology, Univ. Illinois Prof. Laurian Unnevehr, Dept. of Agric. & Consumer Economics, Univ. Illinois Members of the Univ. Illinois Bee Research Facility staff Location: Univ. Illinois Illini Union and Bee Research Facility Fee: $100 includes course materials, refreshments, & honey tasting Lodging: Group rates available at either the Hampton Inn at U of I or air-conditioned dormitory rooms for $18/night Dates&Times: Begins 9:00 AM Saturday, Aug. 8 and ends 1:00 PM Sunday, Aug. 9 Registration: (217) 333-2910 FAX: (217) 244-3499 E-mail: entowork@pop.life.uiuc.edu Or write: Beekeeping Short Course, c/o Univ. Illinois, Dept. Entomology, 320 Morrill Hall, 505 S. Goodwin Ave., Urbana, IL 61801 LIMITED TO 50 PARTICIPANTS, SO REGISTER EARLY! "I laughed, I cried, the Beekeeping Short Course was much better than the Broadway play 'CATS'. This was a VERY interesting course. I'm excited about attending next year with new colleagues." 1997 participant "I recently was invited to attend the University of Illinois Bees and Beekeeping Short Course . . . Dr. Gene Robinson . . . and students put on a well-orchestrated course." Prof. Tom Sanford, Extension Apiculturist, Univ. Florida Sponsored by: Dept. of Entomology and School of Life Sciences, Univ. Illinois Center for Economic Entomology, Illinois Natural History Survey With generous support from Dadant & Sons and Wellmark International (Apistan) -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:12:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: bee sting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Propolis may be the answer. Show your physician a copy of "The anti - inflamatory effect of propolis and its components" by Philip C Calder, PhD, DPhil published March 1998 by the Central Association of Beekeepers. ISBN 0 900909 86 2 Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:12:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: REVIEW/NOREVIEW Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for clearing up the mystery. It seems like a good idea so long as review doesn't drift into censorship. If we don't like it we can always leave. I have never been guilty of quoting as I have never discovered how to: the facility must be attached to one of the many little pictures whose function I have never discovered. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:12:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: PASTEURIZATION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have no idea of the legal definition of pastueurisation in USA law. I suspect your customer has little idea of the nature of honey. Nearly all honey will crystallise in time. There are a few exceptions such as ling (calluna vulgaris) which forms a thixotropic gel. If you warm your honey only sufficiently for it to flow this cannot be described as pasteurisation which is unnecessary as honey itself kills bacteria. I suggest you sell this customer only crystallised honey. This can be achieved quickest at about 57 degrees F, particularly if it is seeded with crystals. Higher or lower temperatures will delay the process. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:12:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Suburban Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit There used to be hives on the roof of the Bank of England. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:12:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Moderation is not censorship! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Aaron, Don't you think that last post of yours was a bit long and full of quotes? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:12:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Bee behavior Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit That happened to me after Procter & Gamble changed the scent of my regular shampoo. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:12:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Mad Bee Syndrome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Tom, I am glad you listen to Radio 4. Its the best. In reciprocation, I used to have one of my car radio buttons tuned to RTE. I must have been in the shower when this item was broadcast as I missed it. However it is on page 20 of today's Times (April 9th). The problem is alleged to be caused by an insecticide produced by Bayer and applied to protect sunflowers from parasites. The chemical, Gaucho, is based on imidaclopride which acts on the nervous system of a wide variety of pests including wireworms and aphids. The signs are that bees become disorientated and fail to return to the hive after gathering nectar and pollen from sunflowers. The problem has occurred in west and central France. Apologies to North American readers for the strongly European flavour of this post. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:22:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Andy Nachbaur (by way of Andy Nachbaur )" Subject: "Mad" bee disease in France Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thursday April 9 2:06 PM EDT 'Mad bee' disease probed in France With a few added notes from the OLd Drone UPI Science News PARIS, April 9 (UPI) _ The French government today moved to combat an outbreak of what's being called ``mad bee'' disease, which the scientific community says is killing millions of honeybees in western France. With half the money coming from the European Union, the French ministries of agriculture and environment said today a total $1 million will be spent to find out why the honeybees are dying. A high bee kill was first reported last summer by beekeepers who said increasing numbers of bees became disorientated and failed to return to their hives after gathering pollen and nectar from sunflowers. Beekeepers in the region call the malady ``mad bee'' disease and blame it on a widely used insecticide that the beekeepers say is destroying the insects' sense of direction. They report the phenomenon has drastically affected the region's bee population and dramatically reduced production of area's famed honey by 60 percent. That's more than a third of France's total output. (Well there is always Argentinean honey at rock bottom prices, including the rocks.) At issue is what the Ministry of Environment reports may be the insecticide,Gaucho, produced by the German agrochemical company Bayer SA. It is used to protect sunflowers from parasites. Ministry spokesman Andre Lesireux said this morning, ``The research will tell us why the bees turn crazy and die.'' (This symptom one reserved for old beekeepers has now been seen for the first time in tired old bees.) The beekeepers say only those insects collecting nectar from sunflowers appear to be affected. The Bayer group has agreed to contribute 5 percent of the total cost of research. (5%-- Cheep fatherless sons of goatheaded dogs, my bet is they are connected to General Mills in the USA.) Franck Allaitru of the FDSEA agriculture union said in Paris today ``A poisoning problem from insecticide is the only explanation for the behaviour of the bees and their systematic disappearance during the first week that the sunflowers bloom.'' Regional authorities have already suspended use of Gaucho in three areas of western and central France - the Vendee, Indre and Deux-Sevres. (Good News for North American Sun Flower growers, Gaucho should be a lot cheaper this summer.) The research initiative, reported earlier in the newspaper Ouest- France, will determine if the bees in those areas recover. But the French Green Party has demanded the product be removed entirely from the market. **(That it, I swear I will never eat another whale bugger as long as I live so help me..er, er well maybe they are like the comm me's and don't have no God.) Gaucho first went on sale in 1994. The producer says Gaucho is based on imidaclopride, a chemical which acts on the nervous systems of a wide variety of pests, including wireworm and aphids. Bayer SA defends the product as the most widely used sunflower insecticide in France and insists ``the accusations have no scientific foundation.'' Bayer SA French marketing director Bruno Feldrops says imidaclopride has been used in more than 70 countries and was subjected to rigorous testing. **(Yeh this stuff is so good he feeds it to his own family but does not to his own bees. "Mad" bees nobody wants but Mad French men are like hairy legs and are a dime a dozen.) Ripped off the United Press International via Yahoo! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:25:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Peter Amschel Subject: Re: PASTEURIZATION In-Reply-To: <00580262314525@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable > From: Jeff May > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > > QUESTION...What is the LEGAL process that has to be taken in order > for honey to be considered to be pasteurized?? My understanding of > the pasteurization process is to heat a liquid to a high enough and > long enough temperature to kill any harmful bacteria and to prevent > or stop the fermentation process. In California, the Golden State, the Land of Milk and Honey, the State Food and Agriculture Code requires that milk be pasturized but for honey there is no such requirement. Here is the milk code section, fyi: " FAC =A732734. (a) In addition to any other provision of law, the director shall require inspections at least quarterly of all milk products plants that pasteurize milk or milk products, manufacture cheese, or manufacture raw milk cheese. The inspection procedures shall include sanitation inspections and pasteurization equipment controls and tests, where applicable. The procedure shall include, but is not limited to, all of the following: (1) Review of all pasteurization records required pursuant to Sections 34007, 34064, and 34065. (2) Inspection and testing of all pasteurization equipment to ensure its cleanliness and proper operating condition. (3) Inspection of all equipment, facilities, raw milk and milk products handling practices, and surroundings to ensure adequate sanitation. (4) Sampling and testing of raw products and processed milk products. (b) The findings of all inspections, sample results, controls, and tests shall be prepared in writing by the inspector and submitted to the director. At > times I have to WARM my honey to make the bottling process easier....am = I in > turn pasteurizing my honey at the same time?? The reason I ask is becaus= e I > have supplied a well know University with some honey to be used in a stu= dy > to determine if daily honey use will indeed help those with allergies. T= hey > have since ask IT IS NOT MY INTENT TO MAKE ANY FALSE CLAIMS CONCERNIN= G > THIS...and would greatly appreciate the groups help in getting some > clarification on this. Please reply to the group or to my e-mail addresM= y > APOLOGIZES for the lengthy post. Busterb@snet.net > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:16:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator Subject: Re: Mad Bee Syndrome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-09 20:24:30 EDT, CSlade777@AOL.COM (CSlade777) writes: << The problem is alleged to be caused by an insecticide produced by Bayer and applied to protect sunflowers from parasites. The chemical, Gaucho, is based on imidaclopride which acts on the nervous system of a wide variety of pests including wireworms and aphids. The signs are that bees become disorientated and fail to return to the hive after gathering nectar and pollen from sunflowers. The problem has occurred in west and central France. Apologies to North American readers for the strongly European flavour of this post. >> No apologies needed here..... We are vitally interested in any pesticide that may also come into useage here. Question: In US law, pesticides that are toxic to bees have specific label instructions that prohibit use under the conditions where bees may be affected. While this law is only enforced when beekeepers know the law and insist on enforcement, it can be used to stop such destruction and bring penalties to the misusers. Do you not have comparable label instructions? I would expect this to be true. Can any one supply a copy of the label to see if there are instructions pertaining to bees? Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:28:37 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: varroa and funny hive colours In-Reply-To: <00581000414534@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ...as the Newtons law thingy goes I know for a fact with my bees at > least that they have a sort of cycle with an early morning temp of about > 32C a midday temp of about 34C and an evening temp of 35 -36C. So we can > hope maybe by raising that early morning temp to say about 33 or 34 for > two hours longer will have a major effect. I've left a indoor/outdoor thermometer in the brood area of the hive and found almost no variation over the day or between weather conditions. Regulation was closer than in most man-made incubators. As I recall, it was within one degree Fahrenheit. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:28:50 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Moderation is not censorship! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Aaron Morris > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Moderation is not censorship! > Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 7:52 AM > Aaron After your explanation I applaud you for your willingness to help the BEE-L user in their learning curve. I vote for your efforts and what you describe is not censorship. Walter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:37:59 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Web page/FGMO In-Reply-To: <21183202513880@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I have a web page that I am not using I been thinking of using it > for my FGMO test results this spring. I thought I would put up my weekly > treatments and results of mites infestation using either rolls. There > will be a test done at the start and each week after. I have been > thinking of using 3 test colonies with no treatment, 3 apistan, and 3 > mineral oil. Iwould like to make this as even as possible by making > them all 5 or 6 frame nucs around 15th of may, and giving all a new > queen. We currently have a Home-Made bee science site at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeScience It has two ongoing experiments on it. The current ones deal with nosema, but any bee topic is welcome. Anyone who is willing to design an experiment that adheres reasonably closely to the scientific method is welcome there. Just write me with the experiment written out in standard experiment form (purpose, method & materials, procedure, observations and conclusions) and I will gladly set up a page or two as well as a separate discussion site -- if it merits its own. If you -- or someone else -- decide to set up your own Bee Science pages, I'll be glad to consider linking to them. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:06:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Helianthus annuus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Helianthus annuus - Sunflowers* With a name like that every beekeeper should know "approach with caution", at least when it comes to the modern scientific commercial growing of Sunflowers as its your bees that will be the ones who gets it in the annuus and you will be the one who suffers the pain in the rear as our brothers in France are learning or will learn.. I know that there are some who really believe that bees were placed on this earth to do good and we beekeepers are here to move them into a better position so they can do that good. I say between my experience of the tears of seeing my own bees all but destroyed time and time again and now the laughter hiding my tears at seeing other beekeepers repeating the mistakes over and over again... "pollination is good farming practice but seldom good beekeeping", but misery does love company and beekeepers do qualify.. Now French beekeepers are learning about pollination of sunflowers or just flowers as the growers like to refer to them as. To them I say, and I believe they do have problems with their bees and it could be one pesticide or another, welcome to pollination, suckers. What a cold thing to say, they are suffering fellow bee people but never the less they got a long way to catch up with beekeepers here in California and to some extent in other areas of the US. You got to charge enough when you pollinate no matter how big your eyes get when you see those fields of potential bee pasture to make up the cost of doing business down on the bee farm. This not only includes the value of the bees lost and what it takes to make them back up but the loss of crop you should have made but then if your crop is the crop you are pollinating you got a big problem, as always to bite the hand that feeds you and continue in business is no easy task and sadly beekeepers here and there tend to relies on the regulation of pesticides by government to protect their bees which is mistake number two. Mistake number one was to get involved with pollination in the first place. Rule three, never, never believe anyone who tell you that any chemical a farmer wants to use will not harm your bees. More times then not harm only means to the dusty is that when what he used actually burned the hive into a pile of ashes, wires, and nails and has noting at all to do with the health or productivity of your bees as a beekeeper or their ability to live from one season to another. I will bet you two things, that the French scientists will spend that million bucks and find out that they need more money for more research, and because beekeepers have a chemical dependency problem and their loss may be something they used themselves to kill their own bee pests or at the least they can not be sure it was not. Why can't government do the job, again as one American president liked to say "the buck stops here" and this is as true today in government as in the day of the mad hatter but today its the "big $$$ bucks that stops any government from protecting the minority", and we beekeepers are a minority within a minority, (agriculture) and all should know by now not to have great excitations from any government agency we would like to think are their to help us only to find out the form of help you get from government is increased taxation and regulation which are the two faces of government with one hand in your hip pocket feeling for your wallet and today the other one today could be some place else felling for who knows what, at least with this Democratic in power, the Groper, we call our president in this the USA, it don't get no better. Some facts you should know and that is there is at least one or two "dusty's" or pesticide salesman for every beekeeper and maybe ten in some areas. They are getting harder to identify because so many today hide behind some environmentalist sounding title. These guys have the mystical power of high education on their side and know ahead of time what pest problems a farmer is going to have in any one year and they already have had their sales meeting and the warehouses are overflowing with pesticides ready to sell to the farmer as soon as his crops are out of the ground and their job is to sell and clear out that warehouse for next years supply. This year they are doing an exceptional business around here as it has been two wet to do much farm work like making the first cutting of hay so they have sold many farmers three or more spray jobs to protect that hay and damaged thousands if not tens of thousands beehives and you know what...that farmer when he does cut that hay will have little to show for his efforts as any hope of making anything like a profit on it was lost because of the costs of protecting it from all those big bad bugs. Of course the beekeepers loss is not his loss and who would dare say not to spray and have to risk the damage or loss of the crop would be better, yet it would have been better not more times then not if only for the money not spent but the fact is there is nothing better then getting a farmer to spray that first cutting of alfalfa as it just about insures many, many, repeat applications for that season and in a crop like alfalfa which is the mother of all insects good and evil on the farm this early spray jobs just about guarantees that as other crops advance such as cotton, corn, melons, sugar beets, that they too will need spraying also as the beneficial balance or the war of insects eating insects has been altered and can not repair itself until another season. All this is from the prospective of the farm advisor pesticide salesman view and they are as close as two hogs in the muck together, at least here in California, it would be hard for the public to tell the difference other then one is paid for by the chemical industry and the other supported by them in all things and in all ways. Anyway I know whatever I say will not make little difference because like most of you I get big glassy eyed when it comes to thousands of acres of flowers in some farmers fields just dreaming how wonderful it will be for my bees and all that honey they will produce, and that's what it usually turns out to bee, a dream but not a nice dream but a nightmare. If you want to know more about Sunflowers one of my favorite crops take a trip to the Northeast and Canada at: http://www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~dleslie/sunf.htm You will be surprised, maybe, not easy to find a kind word for the job honeybees do but lots of information about the pests the growers are going to have to protect themselves from and at the same time take care of the honeybee overpopulation problems every beekeeper must have who pollinates. ttul, the OLd Drone http://209.76.50.54 Coming Soon the March USDA Market Reports ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:48:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wd6esz Subject: Selevtive Mod<=ReModeration - Responding to Aaron Morris In-Reply-To: <352D3EBC.38E0FD6A@starpoint.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I like Elroy's idea. Why punish everybody? Rich On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Elroy Rogers wrote: > Okay can I give a suggestion, leave everyone to NOREVIEW if some one sends > an email that are too long and repetitive send them a warning. If they do > it again set them to REVIEW for a month. Afterwards they can join the rest > of us to NOREVIEW. You can always put them right back on REVIEW if they > continue in there erroneous ways. Don't put us all in beekeepers > kindergarten. I post a lot of time at night so if I am set to review the > post may not get posted until the next day, which maybe no fault of my own . > > Since you said yourself you have no wish to be moderator, this could save > you a lot of time reading a lot of post that wouldn't be necessary. Also > others on the list could help by sending you an email that someone posted > that wasn't appropriate. > > I am afraid once you start down the path of moderator your going to get a > lot of complaints and request to stop someone else from posting. > > > > > > > > ... maybe these top notch beekeepers don't like being questioned > > > by peons like me.... > > > > If they can't take the heat they'll get out of the kitchen. > > Unfortunately, many have. And you should really do something about your > > self image problem ;) > > > > I can see you can keep your sense of humor through this. > > Elroy > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:08:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Tidying the list. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The need to tidy up the list can hardly be called censorship. All that i= s asked is that subscribers follow a few simple and sensible rules when placing their letters on the net. I like to read most letters I receive = so as not to miss anything but I sometimes delete when a heading clearly has= no relevance to me.. I find the followimg faults extremely irksome. Many= headings bear no resemblance to the subject matter. Thus one cannot safe= ly delete based on headings alone. Regularly we see "I agree" or "Me too" a= s the sole subject matter followed by fifty lines of quotes which we had al= l seen one or two days previously. A pointless exercise requiring the distribution of some 800 letters which are immediately deleted. Then we have numerous replies lazily put on the list when they are clearly destin= ed for one individual. When replying to a letter it is usually enough to quote one or two lines, a simple enough operation to select yet time and time again the whole letter is quoted needlessly. Then there is the occasional letter whose lines go on and on across four or five screens, making the reading extremely infuriating. For me messages with a Part 2 = as a download usually end up as gibberish or, often, a repeat of Part 1., s= o I wonder why this is done. Am I at fault in being unable to transcribe these messages or is it my computer? = I could go on but the above will do for now. = Can it be called censorship asking writers to pull up their socks and sho= w a little forethought before they rush into print? Sidpul@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:53:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Reddell Subject: Pasturization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The point of pasturizing food is to kill bacteria. Since most bacteria cannot live in properly cured honey, and no bacteria can grow in honey, there's no health benefit to pasturizing it. So what's the point of pasturizing honey? My take is that pasturization is only useful to packers who need the honey to flow quickly through filters. It does nothing to protect consumers. In fact, it degrades the delicate floral aromatic qualities of the honey, and is largely responsible for the inferior flavor of "store-bought" honey. My preference is to avoid temperatures above 120F. There have been numerous discussions on this list about the definition of raw honey. I use 120F as my limit for raw honey since I've lived in places where ambient temps get that high. That's also about the temperature where wax melts. If you're interested in what raw means for honey, search the archives. I only bring it up in the context of pasturization. Pasturization is a red herring with respect to honey. Hot honey is damaged honey. Keep it cool to protect your reputation with your customers. And if they're concerned about pasturization, explain to them about the natural antiseptic qualities of honey, and the benefit of minimizing heat to preserve quality. We talk a little about this subject on the Gilroy Beekeepers Association Web page at http://www.hotcity.com/~bees/honey.shtml Michael Michael ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:12:07 -0500 Reply-To: ribac@wi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Randy & Isa Chase Subject: Re: Death Camas Flower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to the fifth edition of American Honey Plants by Frank Pellett (1976): "The death camas is a plant of the lily family common to wet meadows from Montana and British Columbia to California. It is reported as the cause of death of large numbers of honeybees during its period of bloom, in the Minidoka project in Utah. The bees die in the hives after their return from the fields for honey, sometimes in alarming numbers. The plant is often reported as poisonous to cattle and sheep, occasionally causing death." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:18:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Pasturization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >My preference is to avoid temperatures above 120F. There have been >numerous discussions on this list about the definition of raw honey. I use >120F as my limit for raw honey since I've lived in places where ambient >temps get that high. This is the entire problem, Everyone chooses a temperature that seems convenient and easily achievable for him, not the one that the bees themselves will choose *every time* if they can possibly have any say in the matter. What temperature a honey house or neighbourhood may reach on a summer's day is entirely irrelevant, a true red herring. The simple, unavoidable fact remains that no healthy, functioning beehive will ever get much above 96 degrees F inside -- if the bees can possibly help it -- no matter how hot it gets outside. The bees abandon other activities and devote all their resources to cooling if the temperature gets into that range, They use evaporation techniques -- if they can get any water -- and these methods are very effective. I just know that someone will say that hives in some areas of the world do regularly get somewhat over that temperature, however this is not desirable and does not happen for long, again, if the bees can possibly help it. Honey that has been anywhere near 120 degrees F is *not at all raw*. Period. If it has been at that temperature for a day or so, it is effectively pasteurized. It is not at all uncommon for packers to hold vats of honey around that temp for days. That is one of the secrets to getting honey to stay liquid forever in jars. What is convenient for packers and some beekeepers is not good for honey. If your honey has been over 110 degrees F, in my opinion it is syrup, not honey. Good syrup, possibly, but not honey as the bee made it. I am being generous saying 110 degrees, because really I believe that honey should not go over 100 degrees F or even be exposed to surfaces much over that temp. Of course you can call anything honey and people will believe you because people want very badly to believe that honey can be melted and filtered and blended to their tastes without harm. Beekeepers keep mum because the majority of honey is sold to packers and if the truth were known, sales would diminish for the product. >That's also about the temperature where wax melts. As I recall, beeswax melts around 142 degrees F, however it does progressively soften below that temp and because it is not just one wax, the melting point is not as distinct as in refined waxes. I think combs sag right around that temp. >If you're interested in what raw means for honey, search the archives. I >only bring it up in the context of pasturization. Check out 'raw' too if you want to know the unvarnished, inconvenient truth. >Pasturization is a red >herring with respect to honey. Hot honey is damaged honey. Keep it cool to >protect your reputation with your customers Good advice. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:40:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Graham Subject: Why Moderate? Alternative approach? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I now act as postmaster for an informal discussion group. At the present time I download over 600 e-mail messages a day. This takes time and dare I say it money. Around 90% of the messages are from List Groups such as Bee-L and end up being circulated to members for discussion. But not all have Bee-Ls level of "noise". I download headers first, compare the sender with a list, if a sender is on this list, I delete without downloading. Sometimes "noise" gets through. But rarely more than once. I have found that membership of the "me too.. massive quote" brigade remains quite consistent. There are new additions but once in nearly always in. Posters of irrelevant material are in the main quite considerate and display much the same characteristics. As far as misleading subject title is concerned that is a problem, but again.....sender on list and ...header in the trash can. There is one difficult problem which only a moderator can solve and its best summed up by referring to the recent battle between "the scientists and the self styled ?grunts!!" One or two of the participants normally post useful stuff. But when the flames start! There are other criteria but above are listed the main ones. Moderated groups are on the whole are a treat to deal with......sometimes the moderator goes on holiday and he/she leaves the gate open... every bull in the group heads for the china shop. Tiresome!!! I would rather a moderator deal with all of the above problems at his/her end of the business. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying; yes anyone can exercise their right to talk tripe, but I have the right not to listen. In total in unmoderated groups from my experience at least over 45% of postings are not worth downloading. In some it is even higher. I commend this approach to you. Is this effective? Who complains about censorship? Read on. Membership in our local group like all other groups changes and, quite often now, we have an influx of new faces. We get our share of the "Freedom of Speech Fighters", well, freedom for this that and the next thing including getting junk in their post box; as far as postmaster is concerned they are the only ones interested in it. And the only ones who cannot cope with it when they get it? The "Freedom of Speech Fighters". They e-mail me to retake the task, hound me down corridors, grab me in the common room, buying me a pint has even been done, some just disappear from our group. Every time I give this to one of the FFs I end up having to take stick from the more discerning members about the level of junk they have to sift through. It used to be done on a rota basis but after an analysis I was asked to take it on as a long term commitment, (and by an ex-pat Ukrainian, he knows what censorship is and moderation to him is not censorship). Please do not misunderstand what I am saying: yes anyone can exercise their right to talk tripe, but I have the right to exercise my option not to listen. I am very happy on this occasion to give that right to a moderator to exercise on my behalf. If he should weaken.......I commend you adopt the above. Regards, David Graham. PS And another thing, trendy bee shaped signatures................. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:06:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Schriner, Jeff" Subject: helianthus annuus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Andy and all, Whew, you gave me a scare there. Here I am getting ready to hitch up the John Deere and go back and disk up the wildlife food plots I sowed with sunflower and millet. At first I thought you were telling me that sunflowers were bad for my bees. In many ways I'm lucky in that I live in the middle of Ky Horse country and the vast majority of the land around my farm is pasture and hay fields. Because the horsey people don't want to poisen their animals pesticides are almost never used in any quantities. My one neighbor does have about 300 acres he alternates with corn and soybeans. His use of pesticides is minimal. He uses herbicides more than pesticides. (we are hunting buddies so he keeps me up to date on what's going on) I seem to recall that Andy mentioned somewhere that you can control your losses from pesticides--I'm assuming you meant by not moving your hives where somebody is spraying the earth with junk. Since I am neither a commercial beekeeper and my hives stay exactly where they are I don't know if I can have any control over the situation. I truly appreciate the information I glean from these pages. Beekeeping is one sideline I have found where there is little substitute for experience. Books can help. But books are largely written by authors whose experience is regional. So you can learn the concepts about things like supering, nectar flows, hive body reversing, etc. But the actual knowledge about how and when to apply these concepts in practical application differs greatly from region to region. I have been keeping bees for 3 years now and have 20 hives. Some I started from packages, some from splits, the first few I bought were "started splits" from a local bee guy. I have two people I rely on for information--each with very different perspectives. One fellow, in his 90s, at one time had over 400 hives. His primary goal was/is honey production. The mites hit him hard a few years back and he never really had the heart (or energy) to build his apiaries back up. He finally retired from the bee business last year and sold his remaining 200 hives. (I got a great deal on a 1 year old Kelly extractor) Frank is a great resource for me and I probably call him every week with another question. He also visits my apiary from time to time to look in my hives and give me some advice. The other fellow I deal with is in his mid 70s. I bought my first splits from him. He does a lot with the local club but his focus seems more on making beehives, and selling "started hives" to new beekeepers. He actually sells about 80 new hives a year. He does run his own apiary with about 40 hives. However, it is clear that honey is not his major interest. Combined, these gentlemen have over 60 years of beekeeping experience. What a great resource for me. Their advice is always on the money-and often contradicts some of the book advice. So to sum it up. I appreciate all you do here and on your web site. Best Regards, Jeff Schriner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:45:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re NOREVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD645C.F3F60F40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD645C.F3F60F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been on moderated list before and always left them because of = censorship. I really don't believe that is the intent here. However I = did see some attempts by older members last winter on newbees asking = questions about subjects that had been covered last year. I agree that = subjects that were discussed last week shouldn't be reopened this week = if the thread has played it's self out. I do believe that it is good to = revisit subjects from time to time. This is the way new ideas are = presented. If only older and more experienced beekeepers post, then = there will be very little, that is new, posted to the list. =20 We are all here searching for answers and this is by far the best forum = I have found on the net. I would hope that when a new idea is presented = that it be treated as an idea and not to be flamed and or ridiculed. If = NOREVIEW gets rid of this, then I'm all for it. I think it is time to = discuss idea instead of flaming them so often. We need opinions, ideas = and experience posted and leave personalities out.=20 I do like the list in its present form and read virtually every post. = However I understand that there is a need to conserve bandwidth and = agree that some changes probably need to be made. Frank Humphrey beekeepr@bellsouth.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD645C.F3F60F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have=20 been on moderated list before and always left them because of = censorship. =20 I really don't believe that is the intent here.  However I did see = some=20 attempts by older members last winter on newbees asking questions about = subjects=20 that had been covered last year.  I agree that subjects that were = discussed=20 last week shouldn't be reopened this week if the thread has played it's = self=20 out.  I do believe that it is good to revisit subjects from time to = time.  This is the way new ideas are presented.  If only older = and=20 more experienced beekeepers post,  then there will be very little, = that is=20 new, posted to the list.  
 
We are=20 all here searching for answers and this is by far the best forum I have = found on=20 the net.  I would hope that when a new idea is presented that it be = treated=20 as an idea and not to be flamed and or ridiculed.  If  = NOREVIEW gets=20 rid of this, then I'm all for it. I think it is time to discuss idea = instead of=20 flaming them so often.   We need opinions, ideas and = experience posted=20 and leave personalities out. 
 
I do=20 like the list in its present form and read virtually every post.  = However I=20 understand that there is a need to conserve bandwidth and agree that = some=20 changes probably need to be made.
 
Frank = Humphrey
beekeepr@bellsouth.net<= /DIV> =20
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD645C.F3F60F40-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:58:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (602446) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <980410.100529.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If there is a longer delay between mixing the swarms, then fighting may > start and lots of bees could be killed. > Ruary Rudd I sometimes combine 2 small swarms by spraying both with syrup or water with peppermint oil mixed in and then shaking both on the landing board. I normally let the bees decide which queen to keep. Frank Humphrey beekeepr@bellsouth.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:56:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: "Mad" bee disease in France Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Andy clipped this: >Gaucho first went on sale in 1994. The producer says Gaucho is based on >imidaclopride, a chemical which acts on the nervous systems of a wide >variety of pests, including wireworm and aphids. Bayer SA defends the >product as the most widely used sunflower insecticide in France and insists >``the accusations have no scientific foundation.'' Bayer SA French >marketing director Bruno Feldrops says imidaclopride has been used in more >than 70 countries and was subjected to rigorous testing. I have been trying to keep tabs on imidacloprid because it is rapidly becoming one of the most commonly used pesticides on potatoes in Prince Edward Island. It is impossible to keep bees on PEI without having them within flying distance of a potato field somewhere. They almost never visit the fields (they have no weeds usually and the bloom is completely unattractive), except for water possibly when they are irrigating, but there is the spray drift problem (we are a windy isle). Anyway here is something clipped from a post to the bombus-l on imidacloprid in late 1996: From: pub00613@innet.be (Karel Bolckmans) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 04:13:26 +-100 We executed both several lab and field trials with imidacloprid to check its toxicity on bumblebees. The trials confirm our observations in countries where the use of imidacloprid on tomatoes is registered (e.g. Spain) and also observations of illegal use of the product in countries where it is not yet registered for greenhouse tomatoes (Belgium and the Netherlands). The use of imidacloprid as a drench is definitely not compatible with the use of bumblebees. We, together with other commercial bumblebee producers (e.g. BCI, Israel), have strong indications that imidacloprid is indeed transported in to the pollen. Adult bumblebees don't seem to be killed but become unable to fly for a while and stay in the hive without collecting pollen. It is probably the lack of food which affects the brood resulting in a rapid decline of the colony. The cotton wool in the hive becomes typically very dirty and tunelled with many ventilation holes when the colony has been exposed to imidacloprid. END OF CLIP If any beekeepers have more information about the toxicity of imidacloprid (ADMIRE is the most common brand here) please post to the list or to me personally. (French beekeepers must have something one would think!) Have a nice day Stan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:43:32 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: "Mad" bee disease in France MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > It is impossible to keep bees on PEI without having them > within flying distance of a potato field somewhere. They almost never > visit the fields (they have no weeds usually and the bloom is completely > unattractive), except for water possibly when they are irrigating, but > there is the spray drift problem (we are a windy isle). A beekeeeper on hybrid Canola in Alberta got damaged the other year when nearby potatoes were sprayed. Don't think this was the culprit though. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:04:49 +0000 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Re: Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moshouse wrote: > I'm interested in purchasing about 50 pounds of honey before October. I'm > writing from Massachusetts and wanted to know if you have any suggestions > about where I might get a good price, good quality and what to look for. Any > help you could provide would be appreciciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Pat (Moshouse@aol.com) Anyone around the Massachusetts area that has honey to sell before October? Contact Pat at: Moshouse@aol.com -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:53:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jim jensen Subject: Re: bee sting treatment In-Reply-To: <00580836114531@systronix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Walt, We use french clay on stings of any sort. The green clay like women's mask treatments. It is a good drawing material when mixed with water or a little tincture of echinacea. Best wishes, Jim Jensen At 06:56 PM 4/9/98 -0600, you wrote: >From: "Barricklow, Walt" >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > >The swelling is almost gone, only a bit tender. The sting yesterday on my >arm is almost gone. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:55:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN TAYLOR Subject: Bees recovered from wall cavity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while back I requested information on a first time experience for me - removing bees from a wall cavity. Well, armed with bits and pieces of information from Bee-L and lot's of patience (ended up taking me a little over four hours from start to finish), I recovered a very strong hive from inside a farm house wall. The hive, in a 16 inch (41cm), on-center, stud cavity, 4 inches (10cm) deep, was over seven feet (213cm) from top to bottom and composed of 6-7 rows of comb. For anyone who cares to make a guess at how long they had been in there . . . there was a good 24 inches (61cm) of detritus below the hive. =20 Here are some things I did during the removal and subsequent installation. Any suggestions or advice welcome . . . I cut pieces of comb to frame height and rubber banded 3-5 pieces side by side on bare frames (wire only). Recovered about four frames of brood/pollen/honey this way and added three or four frames of honey in comb. I placed them in a hive body with bottom board I carried into the room. The frames with rubber banded comb worked great till the girls chewed through the rubber bands and started tossing them out. =46rame manipulation a few days later resulted in some of the comb tilting off the frames because it was attached to nothing else or had become bridged to another frame. I totally removed some of the honey bearing comb, moved the wild brood comb to the outside of the brood chamber and placed frames from my original brood chamber in the center of the new brood chamber. I vacuumed the bees into my bee-vacuum as I went along. Tried to just run the vacuum when I was needing to suck bees, as opposed to running it non-stop. I was pleasantly surprised at the low numbers of dead bees when I installed them in the hive. As I mentioned before, total removal, from ripping the lathe and plaster on either side of the occupied stud cavity, removal of all the lathe and plaster, removal of all the comb and bees and cleaning up took about four and a half hours. I lost my hive to varroa this winter, so had a boxes full of stores for the wild bunch. Questions: Did I kill none/some/all of the brood by placing them in the hive body with few bees in it? They probably sat that way anywhere from 45 minutes to two hours. Room temperature was probably in the mid-70's. =46or transport home I stapled screen over the top and the entrance and put them in the back of my van, which was comfortably warm. When I got home I put the body in place, dumped the bees out of the bucket, installed apistan and buttoned up. I eventually want to get the wild comb out of the hive because it doesn't quite meet Langstroth specifications. I'm going to have horrible bridging comb! Depending on answers to my first question . . . will the queen start laying in the nice, neat brood comb and stop laying on the wild brood comb that I moved to the outside? Am I going to just have to sacrifice any remaining brood in the wild comb so I can get proper frames placed in the box? Have I totally screwed things up in my hive? Do I need to worry about them becoming honey bound? The second box is a full deep with ten frames packed pretty solid with honey. There was considerable space in the brood comb, but still a quite a bit of honey and pollen. I guess I can't put a super on it until the apistan comes out. The super I do have is all foundation, without any pulled comb. I haven't really been able to look for the queen with the frames in the state they are in . . . Depending on suggestions for handling the frames with wild comb . . . should I requeen now whether I find her or not? Wait to requeen in the fall if I do find her? Are these bees likely to be varroa resistant since they have survived all this time and will this be lost by requeening? I got a call from the farmer the day after I removed the bees. He had a cluster of bees about 6 inches (15cm) in diameter that were hanging inside a window frame. I'm sure many of these are field bees that came in after I absconded with their hive. Because they were all clustered together, does that mean the queen was in the cluster or would they tend to do that anyway? I recovered most of those by misting them with water, brushing them into a copy paper box with a feather, then took them home and placed them in the hive. Well, that's about all for now . . . any help gratefully appreciated. John Taylor Southeast Missouri Wild Rose Creek Apiary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:34:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Moderation is not censorship! Comments: cc: winston@sfu.ca, tds5@cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aaron Morris [I think, therefore I bee] wrote (19:18, 4/9/98): >There are MANY more comments that have been made, both on list and to >me privately [about moderating the BEE-L list]. I simply have not had >time to >respond to them all. I hope that those who wrote to me privately >will find >their queries answered in this public forum. I hope that those >who voiced >concerns are reassured that this will continue to be a PUBLIC, >OPEN forum, and >I hope that my belief that moderation will improve the caliber of this >list proves to be correct. Let me first offer a tremendous vote of thanks to Aaron for the incredible service he provides us all!!! Running a list such as BEE-L is truly a labor of love. When I first joined a few e-mail networks, I too was concerned that I would encounter the same type of censorship that we encountered for the last three decades from bee researchers. (Of course, I am sure that those anonymous referees successfully rationalized to themselves why they were not really engaging in censorship.) For an example of what I mean, one need only read Excursus EXC (pages 274-284) in our 1990 Columbia University Press book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY. (It is no wonder that Tom Seeley concluded, in his so-called "review" of that book in NATURE (paraphrased) "Do not read this book!") (Anyone interested can request a copy of that excursus. Be sure, though, to contact me privately on e-mail: wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu and not over the net.) Several years have now passed since I first subscribed to BEE-L, and I can't express how very pleased I am with what has transpired. In no instance have I recognized the slightest hint that censorship (in the evil sense) has occurred. Aaron's example of the crusty comments of Andy Nachbauer provide an excellent example. A real question emerges: Are scientists ready for democracy? Up until now, a great many of them have lived in a very comfortable world that has permitted exclusion (through the mechanism of an at times rather insidious anonymous review system) results and conclusions that more powerful figures in the field disagree with. That is, grant support and favorable review of research results can be denied readily by those who wish to keep dogma in place. The e-mail networks throw a wrench into that former comfortable existence. Hundreds of people now have instantaneous access to results and conclusions that do not fit into the mainstream current of prevailing thought. To date, I have not seen the slightest indication that anything I have posted (though at times admittedly quite controversial) have encountered any of the extreme censorship that I have encountered during the last three decades. That speaks very well for moderators of the lists to which I subscribe. Again, I salute Aaron and the other moderators of these lists. Long may democracy prevail! Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "...scientists are paradoxically resistant to change, even when * * confronted with evidence that virtually demands change of them." * * * * Barber, 1960 (in Greenberg, 1983) * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:07:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wd6esz Subject: Re: Honey Comments: To: Barry Birkey In-Reply-To: <352E18ED.D6B8E425@Birkey.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know that discount wherehouse outlets tend to have a good price. For instance Fedco has 5 pound can for $6.96 Rich On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Barry Birkey wrote: > Moshouse wrote: > > I'm interested in purchasing about 50 pounds of honey before October. I'm > > writing from Massachusetts and wanted to know if you have any suggestions > > about where I might get a good price, good quality and what to look for. Any > > help you could provide would be appreciciated. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Pat (Moshouse@aol.com) > > Anyone around the Massachusetts area that has honey to sell before October? > Contact Pat at: Moshouse@aol.com > > -Barry > > -- > Barry Birkey > West Chicago, Illinois USA > Barry@Birkey.com > http://www.birkey.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:24:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WesVoigtJr Subject: Re: Moderation is not censorship! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Censorship may be the wrong word to use - editing seems closer to what Aaron is talking about. Wesley Voigt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:32:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: Re: bee sting treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tnx for the info. I would guess it acts like a poltice, Walt in Sunny SC ---------- > From: jim jensen > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: bee sting treatment > Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 6:53 PM > > Dear Walt, > > We use french clay on stings of any sort. The green clay like women's mask > treatments. It is a good drawing material when mixed with water or a > little tincture of echinacea. > > Best wishes, > Jim Jensen > > At 06:56 PM 4/9/98 -0600, you wrote: > >From: "Barricklow, Walt" > >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > > > >The swelling is almost gone, only a bit tender. The sting yesterday on my > >arm is almost gone. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:47:38 +0000 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Beekeepers Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tri-State Beekeepers Meeting Saturday, April 25, 1998 Details at: http://www.birkey.com/BLB/Beekeeping/aboutthis.html -- Barry Birkey Illinois, USA -------------------------------- BIRKEY.COM Web Design & Digital Illustration -------------------------------- 630.293.1181 ph > 630.293.3613 fx barry@birkey.com > http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:39:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Auble1 Subject: bees installed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just finished hiving my first package of ladies. Everthing went well! No gloves, or suit. Just the vail. Pushing my luck, but they let me off easy (this time). My only concern right now is a frosty night. Should I keep the grass in the enterance, or remove it and allow everybody inside? Thanks to all - wish me well ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:15:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc Subject: Re: bees installed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If you have a entrance reducer you should use it. Let them have the smallest opening. It'll keep the cold night air out and also give the guard bees less of an area to protect. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:57:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Auble1 Subject: Cold Nights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks Gary & Norm! I've just come in from opening the doorway. Everybody's headed inside. Thanks again ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:51:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: bees installed In-Reply-To: <2fd39464.352fff2b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:39 PM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote: >My only concern right now is a frosty night. Should I keep the grass in the >enterance, or remove it and allow everybody inside? It should melt or dry down and the bees will remove it. Cold or even snow will not hurt them as they will keep busy making babies in any case. Packages actually do better with just a light honey flow then they would say a major honey flow such as heavy Orange flow. You want them to rear the maximum amount of brood for the next few weeks so you will have a strong hive for your own major flow and not wear themselves out making honey. Good Luck, ttul, the OLd Drone Los Banos, California ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 08:13:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: petty Subject: searching MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit can someone help me? when I search the archives for information the articles retrieved are not complete- many are cut off in mid-sentence. am I doing something wrong? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:00:01 -0400 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnite Bee Subject: Greetings! Dear midnitebee@cybertours.com, An Animated Greetings (TM) electronic card was created and sent especially for you by Midnitebee. To receive it, all you have to do is copy the following URL (Internet address): http://www.animatedgreetings.com/cgi-bin/ago_receive?21166915281 paste it into your Internet browser and hit the 'Enter' key. You will then receive instructions how to continue. IMPORTANT! PC Users: Please download the greeting to your root directory e.g.: and not to the Desktop or the AOL download directory. The greeting will not work in the Desktop or in the AOL download directory. If your browser does not accept the cut and paste commands, you may type the URL. Just make sure you spell it correctly, especially the dash and underscore. For more Animated Greetings, visit our web site at: http://www.animatedgreetings.com _____________________________________________________________ For Technical Support, please refer to our Help page on the site: http://www.animatedgreetings.com/ago_help.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:19:32 -0700 Reply-To: hilodon@fan.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Don Tinker Subject: Re: Greetings! Comments: To: ccb3@prodigy.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit chuck: This is a very well done greeting. Check it out. hilodon Midnite Bee wrote: > > Dear midnitebee@cybertours.com, > > An Animated Greetings (TM) electronic card was created and sent > especially for you by Midnitebee. > To receive it, all you have to do is copy the following URL (Internet address): > > http://www.animatedgreetings.com/cgi-bin/ago_receive?21166915281 > > paste it into your Internet browser and hit the 'Enter' key. > You will then receive instructions how to continue. > > IMPORTANT! PC Users: Please download the greeting to your root directory > e.g.: and not to the Desktop or the AOL download directory. > The greeting will not work in the Desktop or in the AOL download directory. > > If your browser does not accept the cut and paste commands, > you may type the URL. Just make sure you spell it correctly, > especially the dash and underscore. > > For more Animated Greetings, visit our web site at: > http://www.animatedgreetings.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > For Technical Support, please refer to our Help page on the site: > http://www.animatedgreetings.com/ago_help.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:39:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: searching In-Reply-To: <199804121202.IAA09344@garlic.negia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, petty wrote: when I search the archives for information the articles retrieved are not complete- many are cut off in mid-sentence. When the Listserver returns the numbers of the posts with the information you ask for, it gives the first few lines of each one so that you can decide if they are relevant or not. To get the complete post, you must send a GETPOST command. The method for doing this usually appears somewhere in the message you received. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:43:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Ulee's Gold question In-Reply-To: <9d33f6d9.35300799@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great flick; much more intense plot than I had expected. Q: In the tupelo yards depicted, all the colonies appear to be run as two deep chambers, with excluder between, queen below. Now I know they didn't need to get technical, but I'm wondering -- are apiaries commonly managed like that down there? Or -- is this frequent practice on unique flows like tupelo? I remember reading that the apiaries in China are usually run this way, with honey being removed from the upper box for extracting (on many frequent visits). This in lieu of tiering up the supers --the hives get no taller. I apologize if this was asked before when the movie came out - it was a rental before I got to see it. Thanks! Joel Freeville, NY (coltsfoot, skunk-cabbage. maples, willows so far...) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:20:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Swarms: hyperspace effect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Garth wrote a month ago: >I had the experience this weekend again of running in a swarm that >had just left. Basically I ran with them for about half a kilometer, >accorss flat terrain on a farm. Suddenly I noticed that the swarm >contracted into a tight lump, gained altitude and then sort of >'hyperspaced'. They just speeded up incredibly convincingly. > >How do they do this?? Why don't they do it from the beginning?? Is >there any explanation for how they do this?? >--- Joel Govostes concurred: > >Amazing. I've tried to chase 'em before. Bad idea. Hopeless. Just when you >think you *might* be able to keep an eye on them, even with such a spread-out >volume of bees, all flying crazy, they suddenly ...disappear. Hyperspace! Some help in understanding what might be happening can be found in the following: 1992 Wenner, A.M. Swarm movement: A mystery explained. Am. Bee J. 132 (1):27-31. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "...scientists are paradoxically resistant to change, even when * * confronted with evidence that virtually demands change of them." * * * * Barber, 1960 (in Greenberg, 1983) * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:53:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron D Wolfenbarger Subject: Fellow Loopers, A Request for information. Hello, My name is Aaron, I have been on Bee-l for the past couple of years and have seen a lot of good info come out of here that has helped me. And thanks to Andy Nauchbauer for all those laughs! Now down to bee-siness. I have alot of wax from some hives I cleaned at and such and I am looking for wax products recipies to get rid of some of this stuff. Recipies for polishes, Lip balm, skin Cream, and whatever else you fellow people can think of. If you could send these to me privately at Brother Aa@juno.com it would be much appreciated. Thank you! Aaron 2 upcomming hives (just waiting on notice to pick them up) Some honey from last year, and 2 1/2 -3 years. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:57:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Searching the archives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Searching BEE-L archives is a two step process. The first step is to send the service request to the server: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu with a line or lines of mail that read: SEARCH BEE-L FOR TOPIC1 or SEARCH BEE-L for 'topic2' since April 1998 LISTSERV will return to sender all references to topic1 in the entire archives and references to topic2 since April, 1998. The references will be the 'post numbers' containing the reference to the requested topic. In the same response LISTSERV will include excerpts of the post which contains the reference to the topic. If that excerpt shows that the post is of interest to the user, the user must follow the second step for archive retrieval, which is to send a service request to LISTSERV that reads: GETPOST BEE-L postnum1,postnum2,...,postnumn LISTSERV will THEN return to sender the entire post in which the topic(s) was referenced. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:17:20 -0500 Reply-To: sg@accn.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: v Subject: Ross Round advice please? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I've been a bee-l member for some time but first time post. I'm new to beekeeping & would like to do Ross Round comb honey. I've been rather disappointed about the lack of conversation concerning comb honey on this listserv so thought it was time to post. Is there anyone out there that could offer some "do's & don'ts" about comb honey ---particularly Ross Rounds. I'm not interested in doing other than comb honey because I want to truly be in touch with the honey bee & "learn" from them. I've done a condiserable amount of reading but have not applied the application. It's now showtime & I would appreciate opinions, advice etc. (Maybe encouragement)? Also, I need to establish my methodolgy for working alone. Is there a height that I should have my hives at in proportion to my body? I'm thinking about the saying, "there are 2 kinds of beekeepers: 1 with a bad back & 1 who is going to have a bad back." As I live alone, I dare not be too reckless. Thanks for any advice you offer. It's appreciated. Sally in sw Michigan sg@accn.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:12:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keeler, Lisa" Subject: Is This Normal? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone; This is my first posting. I've been eavesdropping for a little so I hope I get the format right. This is my second spring with bees and last spring I lost my hive. Don't know exactly what happened but it makes me more nervous this year. I've got 3 hive on my property right now and two are very busy bringing in lots of pollen and every bee is going about her business. I've also seen alot of bees collecting water at some tarps I hadn't cleaned up yet. I'm concered about the 3rd hive which is shaded heavily by a Large yew on the west side (this is where the first hive was - the one I lost last APRIL) - the other two hives are out in the open under some apple trees. It's got the most honey left inside the hive compared to the other two. At this hive there is a party going on on the landing board and in the grass in front of the hive and on the hive itself. Probably 100 or more bees - some of which are very small. Some bees are obviously gathering water from grass and other things, some just appear to be hanging out. Is this normal. There is very little actual flying going on relative to the other two hives and only a small amount of pollen coming in. I had Apistan in last fall and did a mite count this spring - everything appears under control for Varroa. I just finished treating with Teramycin in powdered sugar. Is this site suitable? The yew is great shade in the summer and good for protecting from the winter winds but the hive is obviously taking off much slower than the other two this spring. Thanks for any help you can give. Lisa Keeler Indianapolis lkeeler@dowagro.com P.S. Go for the moderated list. You always will get what you expect from people. I think Aaron should be trusted to do his best - after all he's done alright so far. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:20:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: FAITHAB Subject: Re: Suburban Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-07 00:26:20 EDT, you write: << 1. Keep quiet bees - requeen with queens from a breeder you trust every 2nd year. >> Would really appreciate the phone nos of some of these soon since we need to requeen this year. Are there any in the Tampa Bay area? I could fly them up from my home in Tampa to my bee yard in Va in my shirt pocket. Faith Andrews Bedford Ivy VA and Tampa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:07:54 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Bee haviour Greets All Horold mentioned the variations he notices in his bees over time as far as regards their temperament. I notice a similar effect with my bees sometimes when they become aggressive for no reason. On closer analysis I noted that increased aggression seems to be linked to a certain degree to honeydew collecting from accacias. We have a strong winter flow from A.longifolia caused by a gall wasp that punches holes in the flower stems causing 'syrup' to runn down the branches - this co incides with a good pollen flow. The bees become at least ten times more angry - ie I have to work a hive with taped bee suit as opposed to normal bare foot and t shirt with shorts. Secondly I have noticed when they work on A.karroo which flowers around feb/march and also produced a honeydew flow (which makes a stringy honey BTW) that they also become similarilky ratty. So hence my geuss would be that funny sugars not normally in the bee diet make them aggressive. Anybody else have any similar experience?? Australia??? Texas- mesquite etc?? Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey If parents taught kids about the birds and bees, guys would believe they were half the women they used to be!! Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:25:38 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Is This Normal? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Is this site suitable? The yew is great shade in the summer and good for > protecting from the winter winds but the hive is obviously taking off > much slower than the other two this spring. I doubt you will get as good a response from the readers as have already accumulated in the archives over the years on this very topic. Search for 'shade'. I know the answer and the various arguements about the subject are there, but since it is an important and perrenial question, I will try to recap as best I can; You are fairly far north, so shade is not likely a good idea at all, especially at this time of year.. The longer the hives are in the sun every day, the better they will do and the nicer they will be to work and be around. If you were somewhere else, like the south, the answer would be very different. Allen (who just got a foot af wet snow.). --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:25:30 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Mad bee disease - parasitism Hi All Enjoyed reading the bits about the pesticide causing so called 'mad bee disease' in sunflower fields. In south africa we have had a problem over recent years with the cape honeybee A.m.capenis drifting into the Transvaal Honeybee A.m.scutellata's hives and then developing into laying workers (tvl queen cannot suppress worker ovaries) and then the hive becomes parasitised with cape bees (cape worker can lay worker eggs) and the hive sort of fizzles out, or is diagnosed Cape laying worker and is gassed. Now, I recently spoke to a guy from the Orange Free State province in the centre of the country. His Dad grows sunflowers and he used to rent hives from a cape keeper as well as keeping a few of his own. His own hives suddenly got wiped out by the cape bee even although they had been renting cape bees for a number of years. My question: I wonder if it could have been this chemical that caused increased drifting of cape bees - the cape bee crash happened about 94 -95 so it would coincide with the launch of this product. (I don't know if it was used here, but Bayer is a big name in SA) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey If parents taught kids about the birds and bees, guys would believe they were half the women they used to be!! Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:57:35 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Ross Round advice please? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I've been rather disappointed about the lack of conversation concerning > comb honey on this listserv so thought it was time to post. It's now > showtime & I would appreciate opinions, advice etc. (Maybe > encouragement)? Okay, I'm encouraging you. Go for it. I did and made buckets of money over the 15 or so years I produced it. However, the topic *has* been fairly well covered here. As always, the advice to newbies on any group is to read the FAQ. For your own good. So you can participate meaningfully in discussions. Our FAQ is our logs, available from the LISTSERV via email or via a web search interface. (See sig below). You get all the info -- right, semi-right and just plain wrong -- that has been posted over the years (along with multiple quotes of previous posts from those who can't or won't even figure out how to use an email program You can guess from that what their advice is worth). A simple search for "comb honey" or "Ross Rounds" will bring back a lot of reading. The site http://'www.RossRounds.com' has quite a bit of info too. After you have read all that you will be prepared to ask questions that will get some pretty intelligent response -- if you have any questions left and I'm sure you will. You will also have been warned off about most of the obvious mistakes that are merrily recommended in various comb honey books. Don't misunderstand me; the topic of Ross Rounds could definitely stand *much* more coverage here, since there are many matters that have been missed, glossed over, or which could stand a little controversy. However, since the archives are our FAQ, as well as the transcription of our discussion since the Creation sometime back in the mists od Internet antiquity, the only in depth discussion you are likely to get from the experts -- and there are *real* Ross Rounds experts hanging about here -- will come if you read the archives and address your questions to matters that are not covered there or which are ambiguous there, or subject to debate. Very seldom will anyone who's time is worth anything bother to re-type what has already been covered in reply to a newbie question unless that newbie hits on a real core question by luck or good design. Vague, general questions get dead silence from those who know and a trickle of bad guesses from those who don't. So if you want the real answers read the FAQ first. I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended, do some digging, and come back with some good questions. Bonne chance. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:14:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Producing Comb Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There are over 200 references to "comb honey" in the BEE-L archives. Most of the early references are for the sale of comb honey equipment, so if you search the archives, qualify the search with "Since January 1995" SEARCH BEE-L for 'comb honey' since January 1995 Good referenced for producing are: _Honey_in_the_Comb_ by Eugene Killion and _The_New_Comb_Honey_Book_ by Richard Taylor You also might want to drop a line to Lloyd Spear (check the list for Lloyd's E-Mail address). Lloyd is the new owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:24:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK Subject: Re: Is This Normal? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lisa: You mentioned Apistan - Good! You mentioned Terramycin - Why? But you did mention Menthol, the ONLY approved killer of the Tracheal mite. What month did your bees die? If you found a hive with zero or just a few dead bees in it, yet there was plenty of honey - this is the classic evidence of tracheal mite, KILLED ONLY BY MENTHOL. Now you have 3 hives. Regarding the "sick" one, have you examined INSIDE, or are you just looking at the outside. Maybe all the bees are dead, and what you see going in and out are ROBBER bees. I am trying to be nice - Nobody except God can explain the condition of a colony FROM THE OUTSIDE - You have to examine the BROOD CHAMBER, not the supers. If you can tell me more, I will help you. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:33:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK Subject: Re: Suburban Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Many of us answered your original request for ROSS apiaries. We guessed you meant Rossman'a Apiaries in Moultrie, Georgia. His e-mail address is: jrossman@surfsouth.net His toll free phone is: 1-800-333-7677 Fred and Ann are fine people. Tell George said "hello". George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:23:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey R. Tooker" Subject: Re: Bee haviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garth wrote: > > Greets All > > Horold mentioned the variations he notices in his bees over time as > far as regards their temperament. > snip snip > > Anybody else have any similar experience?? Australia??? Texas- > mesquite etc?? > > Keep well > > Garth > > FOR GARTH: Tried to send you personal email. It got returned for fatal errors in the address. This is the address I used: Garth This was the reply: ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to quagga.ru.ac.za.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550-host is in a reject_recipients list <<< 550 rejected: administrative prohibition 550 ... User unknown ----- Original message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: (from smap@localhost) Please send proper email address and I will re-post. Thank You JRT APOLOGIES TO THE LIST APOLOGIES TO THE LIST ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:58:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alba Wave Subject: Re: Change in your subscription options for the BEE-L list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I sent no query- what is going on? albawave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: sg@accn.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: v Subject: Ross Rounds-Thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Thank you one & all for the advice on Ross Rounds & yes, all was taken in the proper spirit as given. I did a search in the archives from January 1995 but didn't have any results. When I did a search on comb honey I had an avalanche. So I did a Ross Rounds search with very good results. I'm so grateful to have the archives with such a wealth of information. To Tom, in Ireland,thank you for the vaseline tip. This is the first I've heard of that & will give it a try. I'm always looking for an excuse to go into the hive but don't want to disturd them anymore than necessary so that sounds like a good idea. Again, thanks for all the advice from each & every one of you. Your response is very heart warming. Sally in sw Michigan sg@accn.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:56:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JonDeGroot Subject: Bad Back Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit sg@accn.org said: > thinking about the saying, "there are 2 kinds of beekeepers: 1 with a > bad back & 1 who is going to have a bad back." As I live alone, I dare > not be too reckless. Sally, Five things to do to prevent a bad back due to beekeeping: 1. You could try using only 6 5/8 inch or even only 5 5/8 inch boxes for all uses - even for brood chambers. Three 6 5/8 boxes would be approx. equal to two 9 5/8. The smaller supers are especially important for the honey supers, which tend to be much heavier. 2. Make sure that you avoid turning while holding a heavy load. You are much more likely to throw out your back if you are twisting or turning your upper body than if you are lifting straight. 3. Use proper lifting technique - back straight and lift with the legs. 4. Invest in some mechanical assists. A good large-tire handtruck is worth its weight in honey. Three 12 foot steel pipes could be stored at your apiary attached together to form a tripod with a pulley. A mechanically inclined friend (unfortuantely I don't qualify) could improvise an inexpensive hoisting arraingement so that you would not have to do any lifting of heavy weights. 5. Consider regular exercise and stretching for the back as an "insurance policy". Describe your needs to a chiropractor or fitness center person and they will make specific suggestions. Best of Luck, John deGroot ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:40:20 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bad Back Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <66dbeb8.3532fa81@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > A good large-tire handtruck is worth its weight in honey. Costco sells a really good red hand truck for about $30 CAD (21US). With an appropriate ramp and properly designed floors, such carts are capable of moving hives and/or stacks of supers very nicely without any lifting. I once moved a whole yard (25 hives heavy doubles) using such an arrangement and a small trailer with no effort at all. Buy the simple one, not the one that comes apart etc. Allen --- BEE-L can be searched for items in a particular date range. The following message (To the LISTSERVER-not BEE-L) retrieves only the messages since January 1997. SEARCH formic acid IN bee-l SINCE Jan 1997 The capitals indicate commands which the LISTSERVER responds to and the small letters indicate the things that you specify. (Courtesy Don Aitken) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:10:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ben Hanson Subject: No Extractor:??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all. I am new at this game, and have a question. I am monetarily weak this year (and most others) but assume that the bees will produce despite my lack of equipment! My question is, what advice can various people with experience give me in terms of extracting honey without any mechanical assistance? How should I go about it? Thanks for all replies, Ben ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:26:07 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: No Extractor:??? In-Reply-To: <35336057.A8B6C522@vaix2.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > what advice can various people with experience give me in terms of > extracting honey without any mechanical assistance? How should I go > about it? Don't do it. All such methods destroy comb and comb is precious. Make a friend through a local bee club (ask at the gov't ag office) and beg or borrow his/her extractor for a few hours. Or find a local commercial beekeeper whjo will run your combs through for about 10c per pound. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:39:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Tracheal mites and Menthol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT George Imirie wrote: > ... tracheal mite, KILLED ONLY BY MENTHOL. Well, this is not quite true. MENTHOL is the only APPROVED treatment to kill tracheal mites and it is less effective in some regions than in others. Menthol must be applied in warm temperatures (guessing 55- 65 dF) when there are no honey supers on the hives. This makes menthol next to useless in Northern climes. Formic acid will also kill tracheal mites. Some distributors have been approved within the last month to start producing the gel formulation, although the approval process has yet to run its course. The gel formulation of formic MAY hit the market by this fall. Another weapon to combat tracheal mites is the continuous presence of vegetable oil patties in a hive. Studies done by Diana Sammataro have shown the patties (Crisco patties) to have a deleterious effect on T. mites. Covered before on this list, the patties do NOT KILL the mites but screw up their ability to recognize acceptable hosts. For those who require "proof", a video tape has been released recently showcasing Diana's work. It is available from Robert D. Smith, 238 East Fifth Street, Perrysburg, OH. 43551 I just got both these pieces of information (gel update and video) within the past two days. I have verified neither so they should be treated as "hear say", although I have no reason to doubt my source. However the E-Mail account I was given for Robert Smith was inactive, so caveat emptor. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:51:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Schriner, Jeff" Subject: Queen Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain So there I was, checking to see that my queens had been accepted/released from their queen cages in my splits. In one, the queen couldn't get thru the hole in the cage because of the dead workers clogging up the works. So I decided to help her and poked the dead ones aside with a large nail. As I was laying the queen cage back--out she came and away she flew. Aghhhh. Sometimes I wish I could light cigars with $10 bills.... Anyhow, so now I'm going to order another queen, and well might as well order two. Always looking to try something new and improved I am going to try a different breeder for this pair. Currently, all my bees/queens are from Hardeman's, I'm thinking of trying some Wilbanks queens. (Did I mention I only want Italians) All suggestions, experiences and or comments are welcome. Production is probably more important than temperment--but not entirely. The established hives are very busy at the moment and the bees have moved up into the honey supers and are working the bait comb in the top comb supers. My packges are taking syrup like mad and my splits--well, they are still trying to get themselves organized. Best Regards, Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:25:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Queen Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jeff wrote: > So there I was, checking to see that my queens had been > accepted/released from their queen cages ... and away she flew. > Aghhhh.... There is a very good article in this months "Bee Culture" concerning just this issue, even exactly what happened and what to do when "away she flew". Too late for this case, but good reading for the next time. > I am going to try a different breeder ... I only want Italians ... > All suggestions, experiences and or comments are welcome. Many recommendations in the past few days, you can't beat Fred Rossman Rossman Apiaries (1-800-333-7677). Tell Fred you read it on BEE-L! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:26:53 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: No Extractor:??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IHlvdSB0byBiZSBhIG1lbWJlciBvZiB0aGUgUm90dGVyZGFtIEJl ZWtlZXBycyBBc3NvY2lhdGlvbg0Kd2UgaGF2ZSA0IGV4dHJhY3RvcnMgdG8gbGVuZCBmb3Ig bWVtYmVycyBvbmx5LiAgOy0pDQoNCkJlbiBIYW5zb24gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiAgd2hhdCBh ZHZpY2UgY2FuIHZhcmlvdXMgcGVvcGxlDQo+IHdpdGggZXhwZXJpZW5jZSBnaXZlIG1lIGlu IHRlcm1zIG9mIGV4dHJhY3RpbmcgaG9uZXkgd2l0aG91dCBhbnkgbWVjaGFuaWNhbCBhc3Np c3RhbmNlPyANCg0KZ3JlZXRpbmcsIGphbg0KsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCw sLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwDQpob21lIG9mIHRoZSBkcm9uZSBmcmFt ZSBtZXRob2QuICAgZGUgZGFycmVyYWF0IG1ldGhvZGUNCrCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCw sLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsA0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy54czRh bGwubmwvfmp0ZW1wL2luZGV4My5odG1sDQpKYW4gVGVtcGVsbWFuIC8gSW5la2UgRHJhYmJl ICAgICB8ICAgICBtYWlsdG86anRlbXBAeHM0YWxsLm5sDQpTdGVycmVtb3MgMTYgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAzMDY5IEFTIFJvdHRlcmRhbSwgVGhlIE5ldGhlcmxhbmRzDQpUZWwvRmF4IChT T01FVElNRVMpIFhYIDMxICgwKTEwLTQ1Njk0MTINCrCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCw sLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsA0KDQoNCg== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:48:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: No Extractor:??? On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:26:53 +0300 Jan Tempelman writes: >SSB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IHlvdSB0byBiZSBhIG1lbWJlciBvZiB0aGUgUm90dGVyZGFtIEJl Does anyone else have this problem where Jan's messages read like the above garbage ? Particularly interested if this is peculiar only to Juno subscribers. I never used to have this problem with Jan's messages. It seems to have started a couple of months ago. Al, -------------------------------------------------------------------- <"Mailto: awneedham@juno.com" > Scituate,Massachusetts,USA The Beehive-Educational Honey Bee Site Visit Ye Olde Honey Bee Book Shoppe http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:32:16 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Tracheal mites and Menthol In-Reply-To: <980414.104608.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > For those who require "proof", a video tape has been released recently > showcasing Diana's work. It is available from... Fresh from the horse's mouth: Diana says... "The ROOT company sells the Video, a version of it at least. Call them " Allen PS They have a web presence at http://www.AIRoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:54:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Queen Bees In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:51 AM 4/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >So there I was, checking to see that my queens had been >accepted/released from their queen cages in my splits. In one, the >queen couldn't get thru the hole in the cage because of the dead workers >clogging up the works. So I decided to help her and poked the dead ones >aside with a large nail. As I was laying the queen cage back--out she >came and away she flew. More times then not that queen would come back to the release point. But also more times then not the beekeepers is not prepared to wait her out. If you had left the hive in the same condition as it was when she took to wing chances are she would have returned in a few minutes. At other times she could be found a short distance away being balled by a small cluster of workers in a hour or so. I have had more then one queen get out from the cage in my shirt pocket and had them come back and land on that pocket, but I don't move very fast. >Currently, all my bees/queens are from Hardeman's, I'm thinking of >trying some Wilbanks queens. (Did I mention I only want Italians) > All suggestions, experiences and or comments are welcome. Have more then one queen supplier and add at least one to test each season. ttul, the OLd Drone http://209.76.50.54 A few BeeWindSocks back in stock (6) (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:16:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: paul s leroy Subject: Re: No Extractor:??? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:10 AM 4/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all. I am new at this game, and have a question. I am monetarily weak this year (and most others) but >assume that the bees will produce despite my lack of equipment! My question is, what advice can various people >with experience give me in terms of extracting honey without any mechanical assistance? How should I go about it? > >Thanks for all replies, > >Ben I use a very archiac method on about 3 hives here in South Carolina. First .take two 5 gallon plastic buckets, on the first bucket about half way down drill 5/16 inch holes, not more than a half inch apart all around and in the bottom. On opposite sides of the top row of holes I insert from the inside an alunimum or stainless 5/16 bolt or 1/4 or whatever size is handy, about 3/4 inch long with washer and put a washer and nut on the outside to create a hanger. Then put the second bucket inside the first , after thoroughly decapping the honey then while holding the frame over the bucket, cut the comb out in about one inch strips starting at the top. (Dont over load the inside bucket as it will get too heavy to easily handle) . Next , set the whole setup into a black garbage bag, tie the top to hold the heat in and let the sun do the rest. Naturally , it is convenient to have a metal table to work on and much easier cleanup. Only a few hours during the middle of the day and maybe one stir and only miniscule amount of honey will remain in the comb if you have decapped properly. Next, strain through cheese cloth or nylon stocking for crystal clear honey. It doesnt get hot enough to pasteurize the honey , just warm enough to make it flow easily. After thorough cleaning, store the buckets in another black plastic bag tied at the top ready, for the next time it is needed. It doesnt break down, doesnt wear out, is inexpensive, clean and doesnt take a rocket scientist to make or operate. It is archiac but it works!!!!! Paul LeRoy - hobby beekeeper for longer than I like to remember. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:01:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Shilliff Subject: Re: Queen Bees Andy-i have used hardemans in the past.at the same time,we used queens from calvert apiaries,calvert alabama.these italians are very prolific , produce lots of honey and they people there are very helpful.we are in upstate Ny and they dont winter as well as some.they tend to raise brood all winter and need to be fed in the spring. nick shilliff _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:25:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Queen Bees In-Reply-To: <19980414.160114.16638.1.shilliff@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Andy-i have used hardemans in the past. My brother-in-law purchased 6 packages from Hardemans last year. They were very prolific and produced lots of honey. The only problem he had was that he did not keep enough supers on them and three of them swarmed. This year we have split some of them using queen cells but he is having the same problem with swarming. He still has his Spring treatment of Apistan on them and can't super. I am trying some of them for myself this year. I think that they will be very productive with aggressive swarm management. Frank Humphrey beekeepr@bellsouth.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:27:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: USDA NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The USDA National Honey Market News & Bee/Plant Report is on-line at: http://209.76.50.54 Some interesting developments in both the Honey Price & Bee/Pasture Conditions that many will be interested in. All should keeping in mind that these reports by their nature or timing are only the history of the Honey Market & Beekeeping Conditions and should not be relied on for todays CASH Honey market. But all who produce honey to sell should read them anyway as it is a lot of effort to get them on-line. Excuse the typo's and fount errors as they are built in to the cheep OCR programs I use and the fact I only use them once a month. In California the weather has taken a turn towards the bad for most beekeepers and feeding has become general. The temperatures have been 10 to 15 degrees f. below normal for several weeks with rain showers every few days. All is expected (hopefully will) return to normal by weeks end and all glory should bust lose for beekeepers state wide as bees swarm into the Orange Flow in central and southern districts that have a good bloom showing. The Sage flow is only a few weeks away in many areas of the Coast and that too should improve with warmer or normal weather. All should watch the California Sage crop which is water white and interchangeable with any white honey produced as the size and price will set the tone of the market for the season including US imports. This expected crop will be used by the packers & stealers to hammer the price down matters not what the total world supply and availability is. ttul, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:42:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Bee haviour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have noticed a number of factors which are related to deteriorating temper. One is that the hive whose temper gets worse will ofter soon try to swarm: this happens before any queen cells are found - maybe they bees aren't getting their full ration of queen substance. Bayvarol doesn't help temper. Its always a lot easier to put in a hive than to take out again. I tried for a while putting a bunch of herbs in with the smoker fuel, as much for my benefit as the bees. Rosemary smelt fine and caused no problem but sage caused a boil up of bees, many attacking the smoker. I shan't try that one again. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:11:36 -0700 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Jeff Schriner loses a queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Warning! When you lose a queen from the queen cage as Jeff did, resist running in circles or off to the house to think about buying another. Put the queen cage on the lid of the hive and stand aside. If you have another person with you, check each other's clothing for at least ten minutes before leaving the apiary. Often, the queen flies around and comes back to the vicinity, or maybe to another hive's landing board. I've seen them land on the shoulder and hat of a fellow beekeeper. If they land and are not spotted at once I've seen a small cluster of workers gather around, land and feed the queen. Upon checking someone's back to brush off the clinging bees prior to leaving the apiary, we spotted the queen. We held a comb from the hive we were going to requeen next to the small cluster. The bees climbed on and we placed it into a new brood nest, found the old queen, crushed her on the comb in the vicinity of the new queen and put the colony and hive back together. Everything went fine from that point. It pays to keep your eyes open when in an apiary. Which brings to mind: While I use a two queen system to introduce new queens, I have many times replaced failing queens in smaller colonies by finding the old queen and killing her by crushing her on the screen of the new queen's cage. Hang the cage in the center of the top of the cluster as usual. I think I can safely say that I've never lost a new queen by doing this. If mother and daughter are laying in the hive, of course the new queen will perish. Some beekeepers kill the old queen and toss her out of the hive, others drop her into the colony, I prefer crushing her on the new queen cage. I theorize that the old queen's pheromones are transferred to the new queen cage by doing this, perhaps heavily influencing the pheromonal environment in the immediate vicinity of the new queen, thus increasing her acceptance. Beekeepers who have used my suggestion have noted increased acceptance over throwing the old queen out of the hive or dropping her into the brood nest. Of course, feed the parent colony Fumidil-B (FB), and feed the new queen FB and water for two days before introduction. It is necessary to have workers in the cage with her, or lots of workers in the queen cage battery/shipping box. Mix the FB with water at the same rate as you do when using syrup (1 tsp.per gal.). Feeding queens prior to introduction have been known to increase queen acceptance rates from 50 to 95 percent. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com