========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:47:06 GMT+2 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MIKE ALLSOPP Organization: ARC PLANT PROTECTION Subject: capensis in UK Hi all Garth comments that researchers have for decades kept the Cape honeybee (capensis) in various places in the UK. Perhaps so, but not that I have ever heard of. Research on capensis has taken place in Germany, Poland, France and the Netherlands and I have been told that some commercial beekeepers in Germany were trying capensis, illegally, some years ago. But I have never heard of capensis in the UK, especially not for research purposes. cheers Mike Allsopp Stellenbosch Mike Allsopp tel (27)(21) 887-4690 Honeybee Research Section fax (27)(21) 883-3285 Plant Protection Research Institute pmail plant3/vredma Agricultural Research Council email vredma@plant3.agric.za P/Bag X5017 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:10:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Movement of bees in Canada In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980914003505.00692dec@sd70.bc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <1.5.4.32.19980914003505.00692dec@sd70.bc.ca>, Tony Dixon writes > Vancouver Island was embargoed for honey bees >because the Island was mite free and it was believed that by stopping the >movement of bees and bee equipment onto the Island it could stay that way. >This last year Varroa has made it here, probably on a vehicle or in freight. >I hope not because of a thoughtless beekeeper. >Despite all counter measures our Governments can devise, and in this case a >20 mile water barrier, mites still spread. This sounds very much like the attempts at keeping varroa out of the UK. The last I heard, it had spread all the way up to Scotland. When will governments learn that such schemes can only be relied upon as a delaying mechanism at best? -- Paul Walton Bedfordshire, England Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:12:40 -0600 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Nutty Professer & super-MEAN hive - suggestions welcome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have thoughts on why an entire hive would empty itself & come flying out at me (during daylight without a cloud around) for 15 minutes? Literally 20,000-30,000 + bees in the air trying to find their way into my suit! This is the kind of time you'll find any holes in your beesuit or veil...which I did, AFTER the bees (10-15 gaining entrance).....They stung my chin so bad that it's actually puffing to 3 times the size, even though I normally show an immunity to stings now. I look like the Nutty Professer about now. A small bit of rolling smoke was used on the top, front & cracked the middle for a bit ....& waited 2-3 minutes. Splitting the hives only made it easier for them to take flight from the top of the frames. They stung me over & over & over again before I finally got their hive back together & ran off. Try killing bees inside your facemask when there are 1000's trying to get in. ONE good thing I learned today is that running into a bush or thicket confuses the chasing bees - with all the branches & leaves to contend with. This hive has been a problem since pulling them out of someone's shed 3 or 4 months ago. They're treated with the same care as all my others (most of which I only need a facemask to touch) and this sole hive stings me at every chance. Today I was extra careful with them as the slightest noise sets them to air. They've always ignored smoke before but today I saw how it enraged them. I was hoping to requeen today with a new Carnolian. Tomorrow I'll try again, though I have a new plan: First, I'll set out a new bottom board next to the old hive. I'll screen the entrance so bees can't escape. Ontop, I'll set two(2) new hives (with frames) under a queen exluder followed by a third new fully-framed deep. I plan to quickly move the two existing deeps (with queen & majority of bees) ontop of the three new deeps. I'll use a fume board to send the bees running down into the next deep. One at a time, I'll remove the two old deeps and then trap them with their cover. If all goes well, I should find the queen squirming on the queen exluder. After removing the queen, I should have a good shot at requeening. If this fails, I'll move them to a far corner of my out-apiary (queenless or queenright) & be done with them. These kind of bees take all the fun out of it! PS...Anyone who wants to help me after I take off the fume board & reassemble the hive is welcome to join me.... Any suggestions welcome. Matthew Westall in Castle Rock, CO ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:38:30 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: The AHB component of Buckfast Hi All/Ian Ian you mentioned a quote from The Hive and the Honey Bee in which it is stated that monticula remain pretty much segregated as a race from scutellata despite seasonal migratory practices etc - 1961 and another quote by Ruttner -1988. Although both Smith and Ruttner are reputable researchers they based their research on a very old fashioned and practically useless technique - morphomentrics - which distinguishes bees on a basis of wing vein angles and a bunch of other screw balled measurements. I believe that the only real tell tale distinguishment between bee races can be made by various genetic techniques. Of these various DNA fingerprinting techniques (OK, but suspect to being messed up by random factors etc) and sequencing of certain characterisitic regions seems to be the best way of distinguishing a species. I believe as yet the results of such work has not been released. This is for fingerprinting work. Nobody has the cash to do comprehensive sequencing surveys of AHB races. As far as the colours of AHB are concerned - they are a bad indicator. So my geuss would be that moticula genes, being african, and being from female stock will slowly have come forward, as there are certain mitochondrial (cells energy house) incompatibilities between european drone sperm and african bee lines. Hence the healthiest bees will be the purest bees and so on. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey After careful consideration, I have decided that if I am ever a V.I.P the I. may not stand for important. (rather influential, ignorant, idiotic, intelectual, illadvised etc) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:38:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiservices Subject: Two new articles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 In the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" (+ 4.000 visits / month), you can fin= d: "The Future of Bees and Honey Production in Arab Countries", by Moustafa = A. EL-Shehawy at: http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/arab_countries.htm and "Residues in honey after application of thymol against Varroa using the Frakno Thymol frame" by Stefan Bogdanov, Verena Kilchenmann, Anton Imdorf= and Peter Fluri - Federal Dairy Research Institute - Liebefeld - Bee department - CH-3003 Berne - Switzerland at: http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/thymol_us.htm and... a lot of other things at: http://www.beekeeping.com/index_us..htm (\ ______ {((O8< _______________________ (/ = Gilles RATIA International Beekeeping Consultant Webmaster of the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" APISERVICES Beekeeping Development "Le Terrier" F-24420 Coulaures - FRANCE Phone: +33 (0)5 53 05 91 13 Mobile: +33 (0)6 07 68 49 39 Fax: +33 (0)5 53 05 44 57 Email: gilles.ratia@apiservices.com Web: http://www.beekeeping.com and http://www.beekeeping.org and http://www.apiculture.com and http://www.apicultura.com and http://www.imkerei.com and http://www.apiservices.com Latitude : N 45=B0 17' Longitude : E 001=B0 01' _________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:30:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Killing a hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What I did was add a few tablespoons of sulfur to the coals in my smoker and then shake it up. Smoke from this was blown into the hive rather densely and then the openings were taped shut. Next day there were a few bees at the entrance that had been outside and a few bees that were not quite dead on the inside amidst about 10 pounds of the dead. Sulfur is available at garden supplies as a fungicide. I should imagine one could kill a hive with a plastic garbage bag- their own respiration would do them in. Grisly work for a beekeeper no matter how it is accomplished. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:38:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Nicholson Subject: Re: Yellow jackets! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:57 -0700 9/14/98, Adrian Wenner wrote: Thanks for the great writeup! >These commercial traps can become clogged with yellow jackets in a >relatively short time during severe infestations, and then one must remove >them. The problem then arises that live wasps may still be inside and pose >a threat. In that case, one can place the trap in a freezer or an ice >chest, wait until the cold immobilizes the wasps, empty the trap into a >plastic bag, and keep tightly closed until they suffocate. Or just submerse the traps in water. It only takes a couple of minutes to drown a yellow jacket, and it rehydrates the bait so it starts stinking again. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:03:22 +0300 Reply-To: Rimantas Zujus Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: No Eggs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Greg and all Beefriends I have 3 colonies for my own pleasure. Honey harvest is especially poor this summer in Lithuania. Price of honey (small sale) is 16 Litas/kg (4 USD). Welcome traders with cheap honey. This summer I was wiry busy with my job and couldn't look after my bees. When I visited first my bees (in the very beginning of August) I found 2 hives swarmed. I think because of old queens (3 year) and rainy weather. The third hive had one year queen and did not swarm. The swarmed hives had neither capped honey nor almost a drop of nectar. I had to feed them with sugar syrup all August. I had a dream to try Buckfast and decided to give the queens to my swarmed hives - August was little bit late time. I got 2 mated queens - first line hybrids. By the way, what is a price of a queen in your countries? Here virgin - 15 Litas (3.75 USD), mated - 25Litas (6.25 USD). Last Saturday I inspected my hives and noticed 3 combs of brood in every young family and no brood nor eggs in elderly lady's hive. As I remember the young queen is first to lay eggs in spring and last to stop in autumn, and starving bees drop the drone larvae out, eat laid eggs. Your young queens confirm the rule, Greg. Good luck Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www.online.lt/indexs.htm 55 Deg North, 24 Deg East > > >Greg Z wrote: While inspecting my 4 hives today I noticed that one of my >hives has no eggs or larve sized brood. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:16:05 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Pierco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Frank - I cut two 3/4 inch communication holes one inch from the bottom and one inch from the sides. The bees left these open and did not enlarge them. Larry > > > > Have heard a similar comment from another beekeeper concerning plastic > > frames, but they were not peirco. I have ordered some peirco > foundation to > use in frames with grooved top and bottom bars. Am planning to cut a > triangular piece out of each corner. *Where in the frame did you cut > the > communication holes and how big? > thanks in advance, Frank. > > Frank Farrell > Darwin NT > Australia > fmf@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:02:56 -0700 Reply-To: GSTYER@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Styer Subject: Re: No Eggs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unless you are marking your queens, you don't know that the queen you saw is the same one you saw last time you inspected. It could very well be that this is a new supercedure queen that has not yet mated or begun to lay. Check again in a couple of weeks for brood. I have had a bear of a time with unmated supercedure queens in one of my hives this year. Marking your queens is about the most helpful thing you can do for yourself. ---------- > From: Greg J Zujus > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: No Eggs > Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 1:06 PM > > Hello all, > > While inspecting my 4 hives today I noticed that one of my > hives has no eggs or larve sized brood. There is some capped brood > present. It is almost like the queen just stopped laying all at once. The > queen is present as I saw her while inspecting the hive. Is it normal for > a queen to just cease laying this time of year or is this queen just shot > ? All my other queens are still laying quite well, however these are all > new queens as all the other hives swarmed this fall. > > Greg Z > Connecticut > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:50:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Sturman Subject: Honey Tasting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, My bee club is having our annual dinner and we decided to have a honey tasting to see what other beekeepers are producing. This will be a great opportunity for us to sample honeys from around our region side by side. The Catskill Mountain Beekeepers Club has members from farm land at sea level as well as us mountaintop dwellers that live at about 1500 feet. There is a wide range of producers from one-hive hobbyists to commercial pollinators. I am looking for tips and suggestions as to how to guide the members in constructively sampling, and comparing flavors, appearance, etc. of the different honeys. What have other clubs done in the past? I ma looking forward to comments. John Sturman Blue Moon Farm Lexington, NY john@sturman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:16:57 +0000 Reply-To: S.R.PEARCE@dundee.ac.uk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Pearce Organization: Dundee Biochemistry Subject: Re: Killing a hive Dear everybody I find that bunging up the hive and pouring a 1/4 bottle of Vodka in the top kills them very quickly and arguably humanely. The frames can be aired to remove the vodka for a couple of weeks and then the frames can be given to other bees to clean up. As everything is food grade there is no problem..... except the lingering guilt, and the stress of having poured away good booze! Steve Pearce Kilspindie Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:18:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Malibu Skipper Organization: University at Albany Computing and Network Services Subject: Re: Killing a hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Steve Pearce wrote: > I find that bunging up the hive and pouring a 1/4 bottle of Vodka in > the top kills them very quickly and arguably humanely.... I find this more objectionable the using petrol! Malibu Skipper - likes Vodka, hates petrol! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:55:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Movement of bees in Canada In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >Despite all counter measures our Governments can devise, and in this case a > >20 mile water barrier, mites still spread. > > This sounds very much like the attempts at keeping varroa out of the UK. > The last I heard, it had spread all the way up to Scotland. When will > governments learn that such schemes can only be relied upon as a > delaying mechanism at best? > -- > Paul Walton > Bedfordshire, England > Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Hi Paul: These are indeed only delaying measures, but very valuable delaying measures. We closed our borders to importation of U.S. bees due to mites some years ago, and have saved ourselves years of expensive treatment. Our production is much higher than it would otherwise have been and we have benefited from the high honey prices caused by the mite infestations. It is only in the last year or two that mites have started to show up in our area. We now have access to the expertise developed by those in the infested areas, and our response to the problem is made immeasurably easier. I do not believe that there has been any significant downside to the border closure other than the initial hardship caused to beekeepers who routinely killed their bees in the fall and bought package bees from the United States. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:58:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Mean hive There has been a bit of discussion lately about various methods of killing bees efficiently, economically and cleanly. Burning sulfur smoke has been used by some, soapy water by some, vodka (alcohol) by some, gasoline (petrol) by others, and I am sure there are other ways too. One post stated the "theory" that detergent (dish soap) washes the waxy coating from the bees and they die from dehydration. I would like to propose an alternative theory of how the soapy water kills bees (and other flying insects) based on a discussion I just had with a pesticide specialist/toxicologist at Texas A&M University. From my own personal experience, I know that soapy water kills bees cheaply, efficiently and quickly. It knocks them down like they've been hit by a club. That does not suggest "dehydration" to me, especially when the bees die while they are still wet and covered with the soapy "water". I propose that soapy water is toxic to bees. I may not get all the details exactly right, but I will give it my best shot: Soaps (especially detergents and particularly phosphate detergents) contain toxic fatty acids. The cell membrane contains a fluid matrix that contains phospholipids, proteins, enzymes, ion gates, g-proteins and many charged molecules that are necessary for the various functions they perform. When toxic fatty acids (soapy water) are applied to a bee, they quickly dissolve into the phospholipid matrix and disrupt the cell functions completely. They quickly interfere with critical life functions. The exoskeleton is full of pore canals, and these are protected only by a thin layer of oil, which is easily and quickly penetrated by soapy water. Gasoline, solvents, acetone, alcohol will all do something similar, but soap seems to kill them even better and more quickly. Potassium soaps work better. This has been known since the 1700's. It's also possible that the glial cells which surround the neural membranes are attacked by the toxic fatty acids, so the bees' nervous system is poisoned. This all makes a lot more sense to me than "their waxy covering gets washed off and they dehydrate." That doesn't satisfy. Soap is toxic to insects. It's poisonous to them (luckily less toxic to us). Out of all the ones I've heard, I like the suggestion to use the food grade alcolhol the best. Seems the cleanest. A local friend of mine got a new package of bees this Spring and they didn't do well. The hive kept weakening and the bees kept dying off until finally the whole hive expired. He asked me and others what was killing his bees. After asking him some very pointed questions, he finally admitted to washing his frames with soapy water so they would be clean for the bees since it was used equipment. He just neglected to rinse it off. Soapy water is a cheap easy way to kill bees. Most everybody has some dish soap around somewhere. If you don't think soapy water is toxic try drinking some and see what it does to YOUR system. I'll bet it does more than just "wash off the wax." Have a great day and fun beekeeping. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:20:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Rupert Subject: Re: Killing a hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I had to do this to a nasty one a couple weeks ago. I went out before daybreak, sealed the entrance, and put some PDB (para-moth) crystals on a double screen board which I put over the inner cover. I taped a plastic bag over the double screen to seal it and taped the joints between the hive bodies. I believe they were dead within 24 hours but I left it alone for about 4 days before cleaning it out. In the process of cleaning & inspecting I noticed what I assumed were dead wax moth larva at a couple of locations on the brood comb. They had made about 1 inch tracks before succumbing to the PDB fumes. I presume that wax moth eggs are usually present and the bees take care of the larva when they hatch. In this case the bees were dead or dying which allowed the larva to survive for a short time before the PDB took care of them. Rod Rod Rupert rrupert@mail.orion.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:33:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: The AHB component of Buckfast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >sequencing surveys of AHB races. > >As far as the colours of AHB are concerned - they are a bad >indicator. I think we are using two different meanings of the same AHB short form. When I used it I meant Africanized Honey Bees, which are the so called "Killer Bees" of the Americas, and I believe you mean African Honey Bees, being bees from Africa. As far as Buckfast Abbey's method of determining which of the queens are pure Monticola, I can't argue with Brother Adam's guidelines. I understand he is highly revered as an expert in bee breeding. I'm no expert and my reason for writing the previous email was simply to correct some misunderstandings about the Buckfast bee, since they seemed to be getting some "bad press" on the list lately. As I said a long time ago about them, I always worked them with no veil, gloves or any other protection since they seemed to ignore my presence. When they do supersede, they are extremely aggressive, hence the point about requeening yearly. Regards, Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 14 colonies ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:54:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Nicholson Subject: marking queens (was: No Eggs) Comments: To: GSTYER@postoffice.worldnet.att.net In-Reply-To: <19980914220249.HNCX28735@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:02 -0700 9/14/98, George Styer wrote: >Unless you are marking your queens, you don't know that the queen you saw >is the same one you saw last time you inspected. It could very well be that >this is a new supercedure queen that has not yet mated or begun to lay. >Check again in a couple of weeks for brood. What kind of paint do you use? Is fingernail polish OK? What is the technique to hold the queen and make sure she does not get injured and you don't get stung? Paul ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:18:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: The AHB component of In-Reply-To: <2D235A3BBF@warthog.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:38 AM 9/15/98 +0000, you wrote: >Although both Smith and Ruttner are reputable researchers they based >their research on a very old fashioned and practically useless >technique - morphomentrics - which distinguishes bees on a basis of >wing vein angles and a bunch of other screw balled measurements. Oh my gosh Garth, this is blast-O-me! How in the world could you say such a thing when so much in the USDA BS morphing is based on this pre WWII research in Germany. My ears are bigger then yours so I must be purer. >I believe that the only real tell tale distinguishment between bee >races can be made by various genetic techniques. Of these various DNA >fingerprinting techniques (OK, but suspect to being messed up by >random factors etc) and sequencing of certain characterisitic regions >seems to be the best way of distinguishing a species. I believe as >yet the results of such work has not been released. This is for >fingerprinting work. Nobody has the cash to do comprehensive >sequencing surveys of AHB races. The OJ trial in Hollywood showed what reasonable people who are informed by the biggest legal minds think about DNA. This is not to say that I do not believe that DNA ,or OJ did not kill his wife, is not a good tool and I have been impressed myself with tests that can determine the food source of individual strains of imported insects but suspect with honeybees our BS has read more into this science then is really there. Too much reminds me of getting finger prints from a man with no hands so you would use his ears as it must be that no two sets of ears are the same. It is interesting to note that when the USDA put a effort into finding the zone of translocation between Mexican Afro bees and Texas bees via the latest DNA methods it was/has never been found and thats why the story/exclamation is that Afro bees migrate into an area and take over the hives which is pure BS. Tex-Mex bees moved to California have not migrated into the local bees after years of such movement at a time that includes the early spring swarming season. Bees moved into California from Texas in the spring contain large and increasing populations of drones compared to few in the over wintering local hives, this alone would allow for the increased possibility of early virgin queens mating with Tex-Mex bees. Of course this has happened and without a problem. It also must be remembered that all bees that are moved into California do not necessarily return to the state of their origin and some could be moved to the North (Washington state) for Apple pollination before moving East (North Dakota) for honey production and then South (back to Texas). I should say this is an over simplification of what actually happens and really know of no such movement but would bet the farm that it has happened knowing the great love beekeepers have for the smell of diesel and pollination cash. Early tests in California before the so called Kern County "1st find of Afro bees in the USA" was able to show one feral hive, (out of many identified from boarder to boarder in California), that over the years continues to be 100% African using all know tests. This hive was docile as was all other feral and hive honey bees tested up to the Kern County find using morphometrics which continues to be the backbone of regulatory testing for Afro bees. This fact alone should set off a red flag and questions on what we are looking for and that maybe we need to understand why individual hives and hives in individual locations are aggressive. When we understand this then we could possibly show a difference between different strains or races of bees. This work has never been done or even started and is basic. IMHO. I have stood alone ostracized for years as I do not believe what others have reported as scientific fact and present as scientific evidence is understood by the reporters or is truly the results of the cross breeding of bees with African drones because so much can not be explained or is explained away in ways that have nothing to do with science. In the Kern County African bee story the more times individual hives were tested the more Africanized bees were found but not consecutively. That is one hive would test negative and then in a repeat of the test a few weeks later would be positive. When it became apparent that these hives had been requeened with Northern California stock that spring all testing was halted. This is one reason why the quarantine had to be lifted and one reason why in the US all federal regulatory quarantines stopped for fear of a law suit that could not be defended by the government. Texas continues to test but their quarantine is political and like a skive and Texas bees can be found in all bee keeping commerce via movement by truck and mail. What I do believe is that if my dog or my bees kill my neighbors kids for what ever reason that after the 2nd or third kid I will no longer have a dog or bees. Some who for their own personal reasons would have the public believe that African bees are more dangerous then European races of bees and have killed more people then European bees and they have inflated the numbers but this is false and world health statistics have not shown any real changes in bee caused deaths. Statistics in the US actually may show a small decrease in "honey" bee caused deaths in the years since the advent. This fear mongering may get increased government BS funding for study but have had a very negative impact on the beekeeping industry in the US with many public and private bee pasture areas now out of bounds for the keeping of bees and increased expense because of unreasonable insurance requirements in others. ttul, the OLd Drone Follow the daily public hype of the "killer" bee & worm story at: http://beenet.com/bnews.htm (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:25:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Randy C. Lynn" Subject: Need Info on Topbar Hives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Bee-L I keep 60 modern hives here in North Carolina USA. I am helping some missionaries get started with bees. What is the best source for keeping honeybees in topbar hives? Are there any other sources for keeping bees in primitive hives? Thank you in advance for your help. Randy Lynn North Carolina, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:49:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: unman Subject: Odp: Re: What are Buckfast Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Garry! Thank You very much. I think in Poland we don't know yet this hybrid. Is it possible to explain to me the word Buckfast? Regards! Andrzej ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:05:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Source for Top Bar Hives Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Randy Lynn queries: > What is the best source for keeping honeybees in topbar hives? Surf to: http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:12:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: What means BUCKFAST? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Andrzej, The Buckfast bee was the result of the lifelong quest for the "perfect bee" by Brother Adam (Karl Kehrle) who was a monk at the BUCKFAST Abbey in England. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:07:23 -0700 Reply-To: ryarnell@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Re: Killing a hive (Sulphur) I suggest that you go to a pharmacy and buy elemental sulphur - just sulphur with no additives. Elemental sulphur is used, among other things, to treat fruit before drying. Sulphur you find at a garden store may have additives (anti-caking, etc.) which may leave residues which affect future use of comb or honey. >What I did was add a few tablespoons of sulfur to the coals in my smoker and >then shake it up. >Smoke from this was blown into the hive rather densely and then the openings >were taped shut. ... >Sulfur is available at garden supplies as a fungicide. -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:33:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kai-M. Engfer" Subject: Re: capensis in UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Hello Mike and all! interesting to read of the great success of the Cape Honey Bee in European Countries. Nevertheless I do not understand the trouble about that fact, because breeding Capensis for more than 20 years at european institutes with free-flying cape colonies did not cause any negative effects on the bee population in the surroundings. I believe that A. m. capensis will play an important part in beekeeping of the future. Yours sincerely Kai-M. Engfer, Tel. 04347-8861 Ostlandstr. 1 D-24247 Mielkendorf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Buckfast and meaness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Regardless, Ian is correct. If we all marked our queens and re-queened >annually we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's a rather trite statement from Lloyd. We mark and replace our queens every two years. In our attempt to maintain genetics we found the problem. Now the problem is how to get those genes out.************************************************************ The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, ON. L3V 6H1. Canada. Phone (705) 326 7171 Fax (705) 325 3461 David Eyre. Owner. beeworks@muskoka.net www.muskoka.net/~beeworks *********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:13:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: FW: EARLY SPLITTS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Gotta a question for experienced queen rearers. If I was to make early >splitts and produce some queens now, without honey a honey flow. Would >the queen wait till spring to mate if no drones available in the area or >will she try to mate that 3 day period after hatching ? thanks in Quickest way of getting drone layers. If the virgin queen doesn't mate within a few days or even has an incomplete mating then the result will be a drone layer. I have had a virgin queen keep a hive happy right through to spring, no eggs or brood. Once spring came and the bees had more stress it went down hill very quickly. ************************************************************ The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, ON. L3V 6H1. Canada. Phone (705) 326 7171 Fax (705) 325 3461 David Eyre. Owner. beeworks@muskoka.net www.muskoka.net/~beeworks *********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:23:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Mean Buckfasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >yellow and were killed. Therefore it is highly unlikely that there is >any so-called "AHB" genetic material in the Buckfast. > >But since they are a hybrid, you can expect strange characteristics >to emerge when they supersede, just as you do if you plant the seeds >from any hybrid vegetable to not produce the same quality, or if those >plants cross with still another variety. You will get stunted, disease >susceptible plants that are nothing like the hybrid. My question. Why is there no mention of 'strange characteristics' when you buy 'Buckfast'. The information I was givern was the the strain had been fixed and that "Buckfast' bees are gentle etc. If that is not the case, it suggests that a buyer is on a constant roundabout and has to replace with 'Buckfast'. Even in a perfect world some of those regressive genes are bound to 'leak' to surrounding bees, making for more and more agression. Which is what is happening! ************************************************************ The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, ON. L3V 6H1. Canada. Phone (705) 326 7171 Fax (705) 325 3461 David Eyre. Owner. beeworks@muskoka.net www.muskoka.net/~beeworks *********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:58:53 -0700 Reply-To: beeman@NOSPAMkingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: buckfast again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everybody, There has been alot of talk regarding the aggresivness of second generation queens. But there is something that I'm still not clear about. If you have a closed mated queen and you allow some of her eggs to develope into queens. Are those queens not a very close copy of her? Therefor does the aggressive gene come from the drones in the area? Would the new queen not have a good chance to carry on the temperment of her mother? So would it be safe to assume that the breeders of this strain also have this problem to some degree? And if they don't, how do they avoid it? I hope someone can clear this up for me! Thanking you in advance. Kent Stienburg -- Remove NOSPAM to reply. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:21:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: marking queens (was: No Eggs) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Paul: Do NOT use fingernail polish! The solvent might be deadly to bees. It also dries hard and brittle and can flake off. I have used Tester's Model paint for years. Now, it comes in a tube like a pen, and I find that wonderful! A queen bee will NOT sting a human! - only another queen. Using your thumb and index finger, grab the queen by the head and thorax (NOT THE ABDOMEN where you might damage her reproductive system. Touch the Tester felt tip pen to the thorax (avoid eyes and wings), blow your breath on the paint for a few seconds and put her back with the bees. She is marked FOR LIFE! Before your injure or kill a queen, or before you get stung by worker bees as you are learning how to pick up a queen, practice on DRONES. You absolutely have to use bare hands - NO GLOVES. It is very simple - just practice and try it. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:31:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: The AHB component of Buckfast On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:33:51 -0400 Ian Watson writes: >>sequencing surveys of AHB races. >I think we are using two different meanings of the same AHB >short form. When I used it I meant Africanized Honey Bees, >which are the so called "Killer Bees" of the Americas, and I >believe you mean African Honey Bees, being bees from >Africa. Ian - I do not see the difference as the "killer bees" to which you refer, trace their origins back to some hives of bees that were imported from Africa to a University in Brazil. As I understand it, someone accidentally left a queen excluder screen off the entrance and a swarm issued forth .......................and they were off & running ! Al ...................................................................... <"Mailto: awneedham@juno.com" > Scituate,Massachusetts,USA The Beehive-Educational Honey Bee Site Visit The Beehive Book Shoppe http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:10:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: Re: Layne Westover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Layne, As I understand it, the soap, being a surfactant, penetrates the bees ha= ir and removes the layer of air in the hair and they suffocate. I have used soapy water spray many times to kill hornets. I use a backpack sprayer. Once no more hornets come out, or few, I use the wand to destroy the nest. Charles F. Andros Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-=9289 Linden Apiaries/Boulder Wall Gardens 1 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 USA/EUA 603-756-9056 phone/fax if notified by phone email: lindena@sover.net Latitude: 43=B0 05=92 North Longitude: 72=B0 21=92 15=94 West Keeper of 41 2-queen colonies for honey, pollen, propolis, pollination, apitherapy, nuclei, and beeswax. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:19:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Burns Subject: Combining hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I`m new to combining hives and would like some clarifications on the newspaper method. The nectar flow isn't finished yet(southern Quebec) and is it better to wait and combine after the flow in another two weeks? If yes do I place the weak hive over the honey super? If I wait till after the flow is over should I place a feeder over top of the weak hive when combining? What about for winter do I leave the weak hive box on top and wrap it or will all the bees settle into the strong hive's box? I intend on dispatching the weak hive's queen before combining and extracting any honey they had stored in their second hive body. Is there anything wrong with this procedure? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:49:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: What means BUCKFAST? In-Reply-To: <980915.141222.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all bee-lovers, Aaron wrote ... >The Buckfast bee was the result of the lifelong quest for the "perfect >bee" by Brother Adam (Karl Kehrle) who was a monk at the BUCKFAST Abbey >in England. In addition, you can see the development of this bee on the Web site: One life - One bee : on the URL http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/biogen.html in English. For the other languages see on the URL http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage.html, choose the yours and go to the biography. It is remarkable to note that the stock "ligustica" is introduced into the Buckfast Bee "only" before 1920 (twenty) and that never after that, in spite of many tests, this ligustica was "never again" introduced into this bee. It is also necessary to be conscious that the Buckfast Bee is not a race which the stockbreeders preserve as in a museum but a bee which evolves according to the crossings and combinations realized year after year by the big breeders and in particular in Denmark (Keld Brandstrup), at the Buckfast Abbey, in Germany and in Luxembourg (Paul Jungels). It is true that the first crossing of a B.Bee with some other races gives a significant heterosis to the level of aggressiveness. I obtained colonies thus really worth visiting. That generally arrives after the departure of a swarm or at the time of a natural or accidental supersedure. One could not advise too much with bee-keepers who do not want to too much invest themselves in work of breeding not to take in their hives a stocks of bees different from the other bee-keepers of the neighbour. In addition, it is careful after an unspecified supersedure, to test rapidly the character of the offspring of the new queen. Hope this helps. Sincerely Jean-Marie Van Dyck snail mail: B.P. 102 B-5000 Namur (Belgique) Lat.Long.: N:50.30' E:04.56' - Alt.: 200 m - North Sea: 200 km Bee-keeper for 1953 Buckfaster for 1982 14 Dadant-12 production hives 30-40 nuclei with new queens, breeders and retired good queens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:36:31 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: soap and how it kills bees Hi Layne/All Another thing about soap is it reduces the characterisitc high surface tension of water. As a result the water, like substances with lower surface tension is able to fill the bees breathing apparatus and it dies. When these soap compounds get into the breathing system it would wreak havoc for the reasons Layne mentioned. (mainly cell wall disruption) Other things with low surface tension are chemicals like alcohol, benzene, petrol and so on. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey After careful consideration, I have decided that if I am ever a V.I.P the I. may not stand for important. (rather influential, ignorant, idiotic, intelectual, illadvised etc) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:57:33 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Bee DNA tricks Hi All/Andy Thanks Andy for the e-mail supporting a dubious view of modern day ways of 'discriminating' bees. You mentioned a few cases where bees are difficult to distinguish on a genetic basis. I think for bees there are a few ways of distinguishing bees with DNA as the foundation for this. One is to amplify up some pieces of DNA with special enzymes and then to use other enzymes which cut DNA at specific sequences to chop it up. Hence it is very similar to running a program through a book and telling it to create a paragraph at certain word - eg every time there is a the press enter. As a result a number of different size chunks develop and these move at specific speeds if put through a get which slows things down, The smaller the piece the faster it goes. In the end you get a line which is a fingerprint. I don't like this sytem that much as it is subject to contamination. It is however not so expensive and can be used on a large scale. I think it is better than morphometrics. If somebody messes up they can get contaminants in. The primers used in the initial step are universal primers so they can magnify everything up. In forensic labs, the rooms used for PCR (the enzyme reaction that amplifies the DNA) are seperated from the places where DNA is prepared and so on. DNA froms aerosols which can float around in the air and contaminate reactions giving false results. Most bee research labs I am sure suffer from at least a small amount of such contamination as this is not industrial science where big money is involved - in industry one cannot afford to publish incorrect results as the factory you build will not work. In bee science very few people are ever even going to bother duplicating ones work. Another system is to actually sequence certain sections of the DNA. This is quite neat. But a bee has a lot of chromosomes, and hence one has to select a little piece that is representative of the whole animal. People often simplify this by looking at mitochondrial DNA. This is DNA in little organelles that live in the cell and produce the cells energy. Traditional science says these are passed on from mother to child, and never from the father/drone, so theoretically one has a pure source of DNA. Other research has shown that mitochondria actually evolve over time in various parts of the animals body, so taking mitochondria from the stomach and wings will give slightly different sequences for so called characteristic bits of their genome. So that is not so good either. It has also been shown that in bees mitochondrial DNA from the drones is passed to the offspring. So what else is there to do? Maybe one can look at little bits of DNA in the actual bees chromosomes. As such little is known about the genome of the honeybee. It has still to be sequenced. Areas are known that are good for distinguishing bees. but how does one decide which ares? I suspect that observer bias may always be a problem with an animal as large as complex as a bee. Depending on where one looks one could prove anything. My geuss would be with bees the best way of assesing a bees productivity and temperament will be not through any of there above techniques, but rather through a simple record of productivity, temperament and so on. Oneday in the future we will be able to use the above techniques, but a lot of develompment is needed - which will come from other richer areas of science as spin off technologies. Just my thoughts Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey After careful consideration, I have decided that if I am ever a V.I.P the I. may not stand for important. (rather influential, ignorant, idiotic, intelectual, illadvised etc) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:56:42 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Queens stinging In-Reply-To: <199809160022.KAA02209@iccu5.ipswich.gil.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George wrote > A queen bee will NOT sting a human! - only another queen. I would report that I have been stung by a queen bee several times in my = life time. I have also heard other queen bee breeders talk of being stun= g by a queen. Not often, but it does happen. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:03:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Layne Westover Charles, Thanks for "weighing in" on the soap discussion of how it kills bees. The fact that soap is a surfactant and the bees would suffocate by water penetrating their breathing apparatus makes very good sense. It's a whole lot better than suggesting that they "dehydrate". Garth suggested that the things I described would happen "secondarily" to make sure the job is complete, but you may be right that the surfactant effect is the main mode of action when spraying bees or hornets with soapy water. In the case of the beekeeper who washed his frames with soapy water and let them dry, leaving a soap residue that subsequently killed his bees (although more slowly), do you think the surfactant effect was still the cause of death, or rather that in this case it might have been caused by the toxicity of the soap. Safer soaps have been developed with the express purpose of killing insects. If the surfactant were all that was needed, then why bother using insecticidal soaps? Just some things I've been thinking about. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:12:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Queens stinging I can recall some time ago reading a tale on this List of someone in California who used to (believe it or not) store Queens in his mouth as he was working away. He did get stung inside his mouth one or more times once and quit the practice. Probably in this case, the Queens were trying to kill one another inside his mouth and accidentally stung the beekeeper. [ Aside .... at age 65, I am "finally" learning never to say never.....contrary things do happen :-) ] Al ..................................................................... <"Mailto: awneedham@juno.com" > Scituate,Massachusetts,USA The Beehive-Educational Honey Bee Site Visit The Beehive Book Shoppe http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:23:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Ahem.....Are we permitted to brag? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit We have been featured in a Honey Month article in The State newspaper in Columbia. The food editor, Carol Ward, did an outstanding job. And photographer, Linda Stelter, got a backlit photo of our varietal bears that is a classic. It does not come through as clearly on the internet but you can get the idea at The State's web page: http://www.thestate.com/features/ (There are three different stories) Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:05:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Queens stinging In-Reply-To: <19980916.101244.3478.0.awneedham@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:12 AM 9/16/98 -0400, you wrote: >I can recall some time ago reading a tale on this List of >someone in California who used to (believe it or not) >store Queens in his mouth as he was working away. Yep, after a cool one on a very hot afternoon as my buddy went for some more queen cages I did do that. >He did get stung inside his mouth one or more times >once and quit the practice. >Probably in this case, the Queens were trying to kill >one another inside his mouth and accidentally stung the >beekeeper. Thats a good idea but does not explain the times I have been stung by queens as I pinched them between my fingers. My own theory is that virgin or non laying queens are more adapted at stinging but I have never taken the time to check it out or have I read of anyone else doing it. >[ Aside .... at age 65, I am "finally" learning never to >say never.....contrary things do happen :-) ] Some people take longer, I learned long ago and I am only 60. ttul, Andy- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:38:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Billett Subject: Re: Ahem.....Are we permitted to brag? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii David Green Wrote > We have been featured in a Honey Month article in The State newspaper in > Columbia. Brag all you want Dave. I thought it was a good article. Even though the picture of the honey bears was good, The other picture of Dave holding a frame of brood is what the people (Bee-illiterates) are talking about in my Office. (no shirt sleeves, no gloves!) Rod Billett Lexington, SC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:17:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Ahem.....Are we permitted to brag? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Brag away With all the beginner coaching Pollinator defending and general bee promoting you do you can brag proudly. nice links- check out the one on flavoring honey gonna try red pepper and ginger flavored honey for my next marinade. Tom in CT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:13:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: Re: Layne Westover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Layne, I=92m quite sure of the soap acting as a surfactant, this was explained = to me when I was a bee inspector, and I was told this is how fire departments k= ill Africanized bees. As for whether soap residue killed bees I would need more information. There is no certainty the soap was the factor. How about pesticide, mite= s, etc. Perhaps the beekeeper can inform us as to the details, I can't find that letter. As for insecticidal soaps, I don=92t think there are insecticides involv= ed there, more repellents and the suffocant effect. By the way, I was in your town on a night out while working at Weaver Apiaries in 1977. Is the Dixie Chicken still in biz? I had lots of fun = in that place! What kind of honey do you get in your area? Charles F. Andros Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-=9289 Linden Apiaries/Boulder Wall Gardens 1 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 USA/EUA 603-756-9056 phone/fax if notified by phone email: lindena@sover.net Latitude: 43=B0 05=92 North Longitude: 72=B0 21=92 15=94 West Keeper of 41 2-queen colonies for honey, pollen, propolis, pollination, apitherapy, nuclei, and beeswax ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:20:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: Queens stinging in mouth, etc. A. Nachbaur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy, I was once or twice in the position of popping a queen in my mouth when = I had my hands full catching queens at Kona Queen Co. I believe I got stun= g once, but I=92ve been stung so many times by eating honey not carefully checked for bees, I =91m not sure. It=92s not as bad as some other sting= s I=92ve gotten over the years! Charles F. Andros Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-=9289 Linden Apiaries/Boulder Wall Gardens 1 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 USA/EUA 603-756-9056 phone/fax if notified by phone email: lindena@sover.net Latitude: 43=B0 05=92 North Longitude: 72=B0 21=92 15=94 West Keeper of 41 2-queen colonies for honey, pollen, propolis, pollination, apitherapy, nuclei, and beeswax ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:21:49 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MARK G SPAGNOLO Subject: Queen stinging! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George: I hate to disagree with you, but queens DO sting! Not often, but believe me, I have been stung a few times by queens. The stinger does not have a barb on the end, so the queen can sting repeatedly. Also, concerning queen mating; Queens must mate within a short period of time. A queen breeders biggest concern is the supply drones during the few days that the virgins fly. The queens will mate, but if the drone supply is inadequate the mating will be insufficient and the queens will become drone layers in a short time. A big nightmare! Just a quick side note... we are in the middle of a strong, sustained christmas berry (Brazilian pepper) flow. This is the only strong flow of the year. Unfortunately it is some of the worst honey in the world, green, strong and tasting like sulphur! Aloha, Mark in Hawaii ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:50:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: The AHB component of Buckfast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Ian - I do not see the difference as the "killer bees" to which you >refer, trace their origins back to some hives of bees that were imported >from Africa to a University in Brazil. As I understand it, someone >accidentally left a queen excluder screen off the entrance and >a swarm issued forth .......................and they were off & running ! Because, there is not one "African" bee. In Africa, there are several subspecies, some of which are scutellata, monticola, capensis, adansonii and lamarckii, all of which have different characteristics. As I said in my original post, the "Africanized Honey Bee" is a cross between A. m. scutellata queens, which are the ones unfortunately let loose in Brazil in 1956 and whatever drones the queens mate with. I understand the scutellata genes are dominant, hence the aggressive "Africanized honeybees", which as we have found, is a confusing term. Hopefully, this is clearer now? Regards, Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 14 colonies ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:03:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Mean Buckfasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >My question. Why is there no mention of 'strange characteristics' when you >buy 'Buckfast'. There are no "strange characteristics" unless they are allowed to supercede. >The information I was given was the the strain had been >fixed and that "Buckfast' bees are gentle etc. If that is not the case, it >suggests that a buyer is on a constant roundabout and has to replace with >'Buckfast'. It's like planting a hybrid corn, like "Peaches and Cream" and saving the seed and being surprised they don't produce the same quality of corn. Of course you don't do that. If you want the qualities of that hybrid, you buy new seed every year. In beekeeping terms, requeen every year with new Buckfasts. > Even in a perfect world some of those regressive genes are bound to >'leak' to surrounding bees, making for more and more agression. Which is >what is happening! Not if, again, you requeen yearly. And as far as I understand it, the drones of Buckfast queens are pure? So any "leaking" they do would be benefitial. Just speculation on my part. We need an expert to jump in. Regards, Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 14 colonies ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:27:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Buckfast bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been several postings about Buckfast bees here lately. I believe some things need to be straitened out. First the Buckfast bee is not an old race that is kept with certain characteristics, but an ongoing project to supply the commercial beekeepers with the best possible bee. That is regardless of where the genetic material is coming from. There has been both Saharensis and Monticola mixed into Buckfast from Africa, and genetic material from many other parts of the world. But not the Scutellata that causes all the problems in America. So we can't talk about Buckfast the same way we do about the true races! Buckfast bees in Sweden is not the same as in the US. What's more, there are many different lines of Buckfast in the countries in Europe where beekeepers are working with breeding them. Those lines have different behaviour and many lines are kept pure through the years to use in the future in crosses with other lines to continue the process. I have Buckfast lines that are very different from each other, and are using crosses between the lines to get heterosis effect and better vitality. We still have genetic material in Sweden from the first imports from Buckfast Abbey in the 60's, maintained through careful planning and crossing among a number of queen breeders here. The key to this is co-operation between breeders and exchange of material. This is probably the most important thing of all if we shall get any further with bee breeding. When it comes to queen quality and superseedure that has been mentioned here; You get what you pay for. There is a reason the price for a queen is double in Europe compared to the US. No one can put the same time and effort in producing good queens if they only get half the price for them.... There is a different attitude and a much larger scale of the operations in the "new world" than over here... not saying we are better in any way, just do it differently. Looking more to quality than quantity I guess. When there probably isn't that many different lines of Buckfast imported to the US, the queen producers will have a problem with the mating to avoid inbreeding. The easiest way to get past that is to cross with another race. For example a Buckfast queen is mated with Italian or Carnica drones, and the offspring is gentle and productive. I have done it myself with good result. The problem comes when that queen supersede and the second generation is only 50% Buckfast. Then we get those bees that can behave somewhat unexpected.... But as long as you have a pure Buckfast queen mated with Buckfast drones they will be as gentle as anything else even when superseeding! If not, you have to ask yourself if that queen breeder knows what he's doing...... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden. commersial honey producer beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:48:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Scottish weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry Goudie, Lochluichart, Scotland. Knitwear Page: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/ -----Original Message----- From: Philip Roger Gurr To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: 14 September 1998 12:24 Subject: Re: Reviewing this season in South-East England >Here in the North of Scotland, we have had the second worst summer on >record for weather and I, for one, won't be taking any honey at all >this year - despite the fact that we are still Varroa free. > >The coldest place reported in June in Europe (and that included >Spitzbergen, Finland and part of Siberia) was Achnasheen, just 20 >miles up the road from me!!! >Surely next year can't be as bad. >Phil. >(Northern Highlands of Scotland) > I must be getting hardy in my old age as I did not notice it being so cold in June ( I don't live very far from Achnasheen!) I too have no honey this year although I think I must be partly to blame. I use Snelgrove's swarm control system on most of the hives and this year lost every top brood chamber (Snelgrove says that you should always feed this chamber during lean times - but I kept thinking .... surely it must be sunny tomorrow!!) The other hives produced one super of blossom honey but it was not sealed when I had to change to heather supers. As for varroa. I don't think I have any mites yet but it may be too early to say. The bad weather may be a blessing in disguise. A couple of bad years like this and the amount of beekeepers and bees here will be drastically reduced. There used to be a number of beekeepers on Lewis but after only two bad summers there were none. I think this may keep varroa at bay for a while. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:40:56 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Moriarty Subject: Bees as a protected species Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone know of any legislation decalring bees to be a protected species? Aloha, mike moriarty \\\|/// \\~~ ~~// (/ @ @ /) +--oOOO----------(_)--------------+ | Michael Moriarty | | P.O. Box 1102 | | Kapaau, Hawaii 96755 | | 808-889-5809 | +--------------------------oOOO---+ |___|___| | | | | oooO Oooo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:10:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Odp: Re: What are Buckfast Bees? In-Reply-To: <000201bde0ce$dc490660$f6f1cdc3@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <000201bde0ce$dc490660$f6f1cdc3@default>, unman writes >Hi Garry! >Thank You very much. I think in Poland we don't know yet this hybrid. Is it >possible to explain to me the word Buckfast? >Regards! >Andrzej Buckfast Abbey is located in Buckfastleigh, Devon, England. This is the place where Brother Adam (who developed the Buckfast strain of honeybees) lived. -- Paul Walton Bedfordshire, England Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:25:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: The AHB component of Buckfast In-Reply-To: <2D235A3BBF@warthog.ru.ac.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <2D235A3BBF@warthog.ru.ac.za>, Garth writes >Hi All/Ian > >Ian you mentioned a quote from The Hive and the Honey Bee in which it >is stated that monticula remain pretty much segregated as a race from >scutellata despite seasonal migratory practices etc - 1961 and >another quote by Ruttner -1988. I thought that the whole point about that segment was that a.m. monticola was NOT the only race found above a certain hight on Mt. Kilimanjaro and that there was inter-breeding. It seemed to me that the message was that it was ENVIRONMENT (i.e. no interference from predators) rather than GENETICS that made the monticola less aggressive. -- Paul Walton Bedfordshire, England Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:40:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Moving hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All Thanks for your postings on the above subject. The consensus seems to be that I will have to wait until all bees whose navigation system was locked on to the old location are dead, before I can move the nuc back safely. Obviously the later I move the nuc back the fewer bees will be lost from the nuc to their old hive, and after about 3 weeks few if any will be lost. This raises a question for me at any rate. The bees that were flying when in their old location, are presently flying using the land marks as they now exist, and with their navigation system locked on to the present location of the nuc. It is postulated, that if the nuc were returned to the old apiary, say today, that many of the bees would recognise the old land marks, and would not re orient their navigation to the new location of the nuc but rather to the location of their old hive. This suggests that they are capable of storing their present location and a previous location at the same time. Suppose I now moved them to yet another out apiary, say for a week, and then move them back to the first location, what would happen then?. I am a hobbyist, as can be seen from this type of question, and I know that a commercial beekeeper would probably not be interested in the least in this. However I would be very grateful for any feed back. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:06:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew & Tiffany Dubas Subject: LAWS Comments: To: Beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to All, Im just a young beekeeper, though I have been keeping bees since I was 10 and now am 24 It started out very much a hobby, but certainly In my blood from the youngest age I kept bees all these years and now am up to 70 colonies, I worked for Perkiomen valley Apiaries for Bob Brooks for several years. Seeing that I could make money at bees I started doing Pollination, making candles, selling honey and all the other odds and ends. I made up a business name and my question is about Laws governing Honey bottling, also selling bee pollen, royal jelly, can I capsulize bee pollen myself ? need a clean room ? what about royal jelly ? any laws on selling this stuff ? like what happens if someone has a reaction ? Is there insurance I should have ? also anyone in PA ? what are you charging for Pollination ? thanks to all who reply Andrew Dubas Du-Bees Apiaries ( the name came from my nick name of 'DUBIE' ) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:18:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Buckfast bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mr. "Beeman": Gee, you sure said everything so WELL, and surely as complete as a non- scientist beekeeper needs. I hope that everyone on the list reads this posting, and thence able to advise your fellow beekeeping friends about what has been explained. Thanks on behalf of many beekeepers! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Michael J. Schuerger, Sr." Subject: Re: Bee DNA tricks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garth, if you want study to the mother's DNA _only_ use her sons, yes? Drones have no "father" material to mess up the results. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:56:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: Buckfast bees Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) What % buckfast is in the cross between buckfast and any other breed. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: failing queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sure there are others here who are experiencing queen failures with young queens. Whether it's fluvalinate or something else, the fact is it's become a serious problem. The people who requeen their colonies every year must be tearing their hair out. Personally, I can't see requeening every colony, only to find half of the new queens to be garbage. I used almost 500 queens this year, at quite an expense. Initial costs and labor amount to a sizable chunk of hard earned dollars. Doesn't seem to matter whose queens I use, I get the same results. My question is this. Do those requeening with queen cells experience similar problems? I'm considering raising my own cells, and using them to requeen. Also, are there any major queen breeders listening to this? Are you doing anything to correct the problem, or as I suspect, just cranking out as many queens as you can? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:21:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Frank Subject: Re: LAWS In-Reply-To: <000501bde1e8$36c22f80$92caeac7@andrew> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:06 PM 9/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hello to All, > Im just a young beekeeper, <> I made up a >business name and my question is about Laws governing Honey bottling, Here in Virginia I contacted the State Ag office and State Corporation Commission. They were glad to send me free info. Va. Has a web site to find this kind of stuff. If I had started there I could have saved a lot of start up searching. Bill's Bees Norfolk, Va. Honey, candles, soaps, and other fine bee products. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:29:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Brian V. Brown" Subject: phorid flies and bees Comments: To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Colleagues: I am beginning a project on the phorid fly genus Melaloncha, the species of which are parasitoids of adult stingless bees, bumble bees and honey bees in the New World tropics. My interest is in the systematics of the flies, describing the many unknown species, studying their phylogenetic relationships and hopefully learning something about their host-parasitoid relationships. Allow me to give you a little background: The genus Melaloncha is found almost exclusively in south and central America (one species makes its way to southern Texas) and is known from 32 described species. In Costa Rica alone, however, I have identified 54 species, most of which are of course undescribed. As far as we know, these flies are parasitoids, laying their eggs in adult stingless bees, bumble bees and honey bees. Obviously, the honey bees are not natural hosts, but some species of Melaloncha are so far known only to attack them. Probably other native bees are attacked (euglossines?) but I have no evidence yet. We have host information for about 10 species in total, so much remains to be learned. There is some evidence that the flies can be injurious to bee colonies and might be problems for apiculture. I need many more specimens of these flies to conduct my studies. General insect collecting techniques, including Malaise traps, are relatively inefficient to collect specimens of Melaloncha. Instead, there are three major ways to catch them: 1) Watch the nests of hosts. Some species of Melaloncha will perch near the nest entrance and dart at potential hosts, trying to lay eggs in them. 2) Watch the flowers where bees congregate. I did this at Las Cruces this summer and collected 7 species of Melaloncha attacking 4 species of bees. 3) Collect the sick, injured looking bees that are on the ground near the nest entrance, or inside the colony, that are too weak to fly. These are often parasitized; William Ramirez found that about half of the honey bees with these symptoms had Melaloncha larvae in them. Obviously, these three methods are superior to general collecting because they link the parasitoids with their hosts. My plan is to submit a grant proposal to the National Science Foundation to study these flies. I will describe all the species, and produce a user-friendly guide to their identification (possibly just for Costa Rica, as there are insufficient numbers of specimens from other parts of the Neotropical Region), look at their phylogenetic relationships and hopefully be able to learn about host-parasitoid co-evolution. What I need is access to colonies of stingless bees, and honey bees, where I can make my collections and do my rearing studies. It would be great to also train others to make collections for me, so that we could learn about seasonality in the various species. My trips to tropical forests have given me spotty results in collecting Melaloncha because one must rely upon blind luck in coming across colonies; therefore, I am interested in contacting those who have captive colonies. Anyone with an interest in this project, or who needs phorids from bee nests identified, is welcome to contact me. Thanks in advance, Brian ________________________________________ Brian V. Brown Entomology Section Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County 900 Exposition Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA, 90007, U.S.A. tel: (213) 763-3363 fax: (213) 746-2999 email: bbrown@nhm.org http://www.lam.mus.ca.us/lacmnh/departments/research/entomology ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:22:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen McMullen Subject: Barrel Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Group What are the pros & cons of barrel feeding bees. Glen McMullen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:36:03 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Drones as a source of DNA for identification Hi Michael/All Michael, you mentioned that using droneDNA for identification is better as their is no father to mess up the results. There are some problems here as well. Bees allow drones to drift, so there is a high level of drone exchange between even distantly located hives - so the drones in your hive may/(definitely are not) all from your hive. Hence one must use brood. Here there is also a problem. It has recently been shown that workers will often sneak in quite a few of the actual drone eggs (even in a queenright colony). Hence doing DNA work on drone brood you will get funny results again, as one may just be identifying social parasite workers. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey After careful consideration, I have decided that if I am ever a V.I.P the I. may not stand for important. (rather influential, ignorant, idiotic, intelectual, illadvised etc) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:21:11 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Bees as a protected species Hi Micheal/All In south africa I am told that bees are a protected species in some or other way. I heard this from a municipal worker who was aggreed with me that the practices of gassing bees in our town were bad. I am not sure how this would work though if it is true. In much of the world it is difficult to declare bees a protected species as they are not indigenous. In SA they used to have trout declared a protected species - Trout from the north. Nowadays, environmental logic says you can only declare an animal prtected in it's own environment if you are trying to conserve it as a natural species. I would think that legislation to encourage human/bee symbioses would be better. So instead of making them a protected species - ie making legislation so people don't hurt them - it would be better to have legislation to make people support them. But then again the less government the better. If bees are neccessary, economics will protect them, not government. If we pay government to protect them, one detracts through taxes from the real economy and reduces the power of this force to voluntarily provide funding to bees. (eg if one taxes almond farmers one is less likely to get donations from them for bee research.) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey After careful consideration, I have decided that if I am ever a V.I.P the I. may not stand for important. (rather influential, ignorant, idiotic, intelectual, illadvised etc) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:22:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Canadian Honey Council MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings.. Canadian Honey Council and Association of Professional Apiculturists Meet= in Joint Symposium with Qu=E9bec Honey Producers Federation. article located here: http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee Herb Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:39:42 -0500 Reply-To: ribac@wi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Randy & Isa Chase Subject: Science News Article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The September 12, 1998 issue of Science News has a cover story on the anti-oxidant properties of honey and some possible commercial applications. The article may be accessed over the internet at http://www.sciencenews.org. (the full text of the article is at the bottom of the page which has the current articles). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:29:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley" Subject: Re: Bees as a protected species In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Michael Moriarty wrote: > > Does anyone know of any legislation decalring bees to be a protected species? I'd hate to see that happen!! I envision there being some kind of fine or jail term for killing bees. Everytime I close up my hive I'll be violating federal law. 8-} *************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, The Internet Cafe | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, Scranton, PA | reaction is the alternative. (717) 344-1969 | dave@scranton.com | -Daniel De Leon *************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:46:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley" Subject: Should *I* Extract? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm going to have 7 medium supers from my hives. I've never extracted before, I had someone else do it for me for a few bucks. I can borrow an hand extractor from someone. Should I do it myslef or have my friend do it for me? What are the pitfalls of doing it myself for the first time? *************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, The Internet Cafe | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, Scranton, PA | reaction is the alternative. (717) 344-1969 | dave@scranton.com | -Daniel De Leon *************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:45:01 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@WCTEL.NET Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carolyn Ehle Organization: Wood Widgeon Farm Subject: Re: honey article MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Finally, some good press for honey. Check out the cover story of the 9/12/98 Science News, which focuses on the antioxidant properties of honey, and other benefits. The full text appears at http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/9_12_98/Bob1.htm We biologists are occasionally useful... Carolyn Ehle Wood Widgeon Farm Plum Branch, SC ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Laying workers Garth's note concerning cautions when using drones as a source for DNA analysis reminded me that in his outstanding book, "The Wisdom of the Hive", Dr. Tom Seeley states that at any one time between 1%-3% of the worker bees in a hive will be egg layers; even in a queenright hive! Even at only 40,000 bees in a colony, that is a lot of laying workers! It is also a lot of drones. I don't know much about honey bee genetics, but with this number of drones coming from laying workers and being potential mates for virgin queens, it would seem to add some real complications to controlled breeding programs. Makes me appreciate good queen breeders even more! Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:16:55 -0400 Reply-To: john.kriz@snet.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "John J. Kriz" Subject: British Columbia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm just back from Vancouver Island and the Gulf Islands in the Gulf of Georgia...vacation. At the ferry at Tsawwassen on the mainland, there was a sign saying that transporting bees off the mainland was prohibited. While at the annual Saanich Agricultural Fair near Victoria, the local beekeepers had a lovely booth describing bees with an observation hive, beeswax, and all sorts of items describing honeybees, the industry, etc. There I heard that mites have just arrived on these Islands. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:35:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elias Gonzalez San juan Subject: Re: Bees as a protected species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all. In 1994 the Congress of Peru declared beekeeping, honeybees -Apis mellifera and native bees- and melliferous flora as National Public Interest matter. Happy weekend. Elias. beepress@iedatos.es Canary Islands - Spain. http://www.iedatos.es/usr/user10005/index.htm (all contents in Spanish) ========================================================================== Ley No. 26305 Promulgada por el Poder Ejecutivo el 11.MAY.94 Publicada en el Diario Oficial El Peruano el 13.MAY.94 Ley No. 26305 EL PRESIDENTE DE LA REPUBLICA POR CUANTO: El Congreso Constituyente Democratico ha dado la Ley siguiente: EL CONGRESO CONSTITUYENTE DEMOCRATICO; Ha dado la Ley siguiente: Articulo 1:.- Declarese de interes nacional a la Apicultura y la actividad agro-industrial de los productos apicolas por su importancia economica, social y ecologica, debiendo protegerse a la abeja domestica -abeja apis mellifera- y a las especies de abejas nativas como insectos utiles, asi como a la flora apicola como riqueza nacional evitando su tala indiscriminada y propiciando su reforestacion. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:11:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: GENETICALLY MODIFIED CROPS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit At our County Association meeting last night the question of GM crops was raised especially those that produce insecticide to control pollen beetle, aphids etc. While there is a lot of literature from Monsanto to say they are very clever and very careful and they will feed the world, our members have not been able to find anything to say that tests have been carried out on bees and honey and the results of the tests. The silence is worrying. Although an individual flower will possibly produce only an infinitessible amount of insecticide in it's nectar what happens when 40,000 bees are going mad in a field of millions of flowers, concentrating the nectar into honey and feeding it to themselves, their larvae and our customers? It must not be forgotten that bees also feed on sap either directly through extra floral nectaries or wounds in plants or indirectly through the secretions from the rear end of aphids. Does anyone know the answer? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:09:52 -0700 Reply-To: ryarnell@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Honey and Food Spoilage The cover story of _Science News_ this week (v154 #11 9/12/98) considers the relationship of the color of honey to its preservative qualtities. Although I haven't checked, I suspect the text also appears on its web site: www.sciencenews.org. Bottom line: marketing strategies may benefit. -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:15:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Bad tempered Colony and "Fabi Spray" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I recently purchased some of the Fabi Spray that David Eyre speaks of (below), and would like to confirm that it does work VERY well. I tried it today on a particularily aggresive colony, and sure enough, it was as if I wasn't even there. To further test it, I waved my hands over the top bars several times, which would have previously caused dozens of the girls to fly at my veil and gloves, but this time, nothing. Even taking frames out didn't affect them. Amazing stuff! I wonder what's in it. Regards, Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 14 colonies -----Original Message----- From: David Eyre > We have been trying a couple of new ideas (to us), both of which work >very well. >snip> > The second thing we've tried is "Fabi Spray" comes in an aerosol can >and as the ad says, 'A little dab will do yer". A brief one second spray >across the top bars, replace the inner cover for a few moments and the >roughest bees calm down. Slightly expensive, but a large can will 'do' a lot >of hives. > We sell both these items, for further info a personal e-mail will >get you an answer. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:40:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ron taylor Subject: Purchase of Corn syrup for use in South carolina MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I recently atrtended a meeting and the discussion cenetered around feeding bees. The subject of corn syrup came up. We see it advertised in journals by companies but none in the south. Can corn syrup be purchased in the south in drums or larger amints at reasonable prices. Ron Taylor, Colleton Beekeepers, Cottageville SC Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:51:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: GENETICALLY MODIFIED CROPS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/19/98 6:50:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CSlade777@AOL.com writes: > Although an individual flower will possibly produce only an infinitessible > amount of insecticide in it's nectar what happens when 40,000 bees are going > mad in a field of millions of flowers, concentrating the nectar into honey > and > feeding it to themselves, their larvae and our customers? It must not be > forgotten that bees also feed on sap either directly through extra floral > nectaries or wounds in plants or indirectly through the secretions from the > rear end of aphids. > Does anyone know the answer? I can't claim to know the answer, but my impressions so far are very favorable (with cotton). I have been told that 80% of the cotton around here is genetically modified and does not need as much spraying. Most of the bee losses come during that early bloom period, when cotton is most attractive to bees, and this is the time, when the spraying seems to be reduced with the transgenic cotton. In the last two summers our pesticide losses have been very small compared to previous years. Since cotton returned to be a major crop here, our summer losses have been severe. Previously, spraying would knock out the field force two or three times, and by September I'd have basically a nuc left in the hives, and often they'd be starving. Now, we have gotton a significant cotton honey crop. This past week I handled a bunch of rip-roaring hives, to place them in fall cukes. Some of them were so heavy, even in the brood chamber, that they obviously should have had additional supers, and the bees were hanging out every crack. We've been checked by the state for the African hive beetles, and are clean so far. It's only a matter of time; they are turning up all over the southeast, and obviously have been in the states for several years. If you bought bees this past spring, or are near someone else who did, it would be a good idea to check. Pop the covers and quickly check the ends of the top bars where they meet the frame rests for small beetles. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:39:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew & Tiffany Dubas Subject: Re: Should *I* Extract? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Dave D. Cawley To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Saturday, September 19, 1998 5:19 AM Subject: Should *I* Extract? > I'm going to have 7 medium supers from my hives. I've never >extracted before, I had someone else do it for me for a few bucks. I can >borrow an hand extractor from someone. Should I do it myslef or have my >friend do it for me? What are the pitfalls of doing it myself for the >first time? > >*************************************************************** >Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, >The Internet Cafe | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, >Scranton, PA | reaction is the alternative. >(717) 344-1969 | >dave@scranton.com | -Daniel De Leon >*************************************************************** > URL => http://www.scranton.com > Just Do it. what a better way to learn. enjoy the experience of your labor. there is nothing better. If your friend is a friend maybe ask him over to help. :) Dubie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:39:42 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Gaida Subject: Sour Nasty Honey smell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have a beekeeper in our local club that has a problem. All the suggestions we have made seem to not be the answer. Any help out there for this one? Diane has 4 hives. Treated 2 hives in the spring for mites, AFB and nosema. (Grease patties, Terramycin, Fumidil) These two hives each swarmed. She caught the swarms and now has 4. All four hives appear to be healthy. Eggs, larvae and pupae at all stages. Good brood patterns. No holes in capped brood. No stringyness on toothpick test. Grease patties with terramycin were placed in each hive approximately two weeks ago. Mineral oil stripe was placed on top of each brood frame. 1 to 1 sugar syrup was put in each hive one week ago. (Kentucky, USA is in the middle of a drought) Goldenrod and aster is now in bloom. The problem is a "nasty" smell coming from the hives. Diane says the smell is not as bad as rotten meat but definitely not pleasant. She took all the boxes off and examined each. The smell seems to be strongest in the honey or bee's food box. Any ideas? THANK YOU ALL for the help on the larvae discard problem. After Joe examined his hives it appears that the bees were starving even though they had honey. Apparently not enough moisture? He put on sugar syrup and all seems to be a little better, more activity and no more discards, YET. Thanks, again. I appreciate your time. Judy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:56:35 -0400 Reply-To: jrossman@surfsouth.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "JOSEPH F. ROSSMAN" Subject: Re: Purchase of Corn syrup for use in South carolina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ron taylor wrote: > > I recently atrtended a meeting and the discussion cenetered around > feeding bees. The subject of corn syrup came up. We see it advertised > in journals by companies but none in the south. Can corn syrup be > purchased in the south in drums or larger amints at reasonable prices. > Ron Taylor, Colleton Beekeepers, Cottageville SC Thanks RON, IF YOU WILL CONTACT OUR OFFICE WE WILL BE GLAD TO GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION ABOUT BUYING CORN SYRUP IN THE SOUTH. OUR NUMBER IS 1-800-333-7677 THANKS IN ADVANCE. FRED ROSSMAN ROSSMAN APIARIES MOULTRIE, GA. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:06:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Norman CotÊ" Subject: Re: Bees as a protected species Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I know here in Connecticut that exterminators are not alowed to kill honeybees, even if their in living in the walls of your home. We have a couple of beekeepers that make a nice profit removing bees from unwanted places. Hope this helps. Norm in Connecticut ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:09:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Norman CotÊ" Subject: Re: Should *I* Extract? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Do it yourself and know all the up and downs of beekeeping. Also, this way you know how much honey your getting and also be able to keep all the wax capping that you can us for making candles etc. Norm in Connecticut ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Steve Newcomb Subject: Re: Sour Nasty Honey smell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds to me like goldenrod. Here in northern Ohio, we have also had a drought, but the goldenrod has been blooming non-stop for about 5 weeks. Does it smell kind of musty, but a little sweet? Open the hive. The edges of uncapped honey cells should be tipped with orange. That's goldenrod. Doesn't smell nice, but makes a fine honey. I took of 80# 2 weeks ago, and have about another 100# ready for next week, off of 2 hives in my backyard. This doesn't include one deep with 10 frames full, and one with 9 frames full, for winter feed. Steve Newcomb Elyria, OH ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Steve Newcomb Subject: Propolis Preparation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a small amount of propolis that I collected this summer. Some members of my local beekeepers association recommend eating a small piece each morning during flu season. They say it helps them avoid colds and flus. My question is: what is the proper method of cleaning the propolis. Most of mine was scraped from the tops of the frames, but there is some wax and bee parts in it. Any advice would be appreciated. Steve Newcomb Elyria, OH ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:04:47 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Re: Sour Nasty Honey smell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Gaida wrote: Goldenrod and aster is now in bloom The problem is a "nasty" smell coming from the hives. Diane says the smell > is not as bad as rotten meat but definitely not pleasant. She took all the > boxes off and examined each. The smell seems to be strongest in the honey > or bee's food box. Any ideas? I suspect that the odor is that of ripening goldenrod/aster honey. We always get a sickly sweet, very strong odor, probably the same as that being reported when the fall flow is in high gear. It pervades the entire yard and is definitely unpleasant. However, when the honey is ripened, it's foul odor is gone and it is a wonderful light honey, which granulates hard extremely rapidly. I am not sure whether the goldenrod or aster is responsible, since, as you indicate, both are in bloom at roughly the same time. I tend to think it is the aster, since the early bloom is only goldenrod, and I never notice the odor until later when the asters are beginning to bloom as well. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:52:42 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re; bees and genetically modified crops Hi All It is good to hear Dave has had success on cotton which is genetically modified. From what I understand the 'insecticide' in cotton is nothing more than a virus which has been cloned into the cotton. In otherwords the cotton plant now produces a natural virus of the pest which eats the cotton and this virus being present in the sap of the plant kills that pest when it eats the cotton. The virus is insect specific, and specific to the pest as well. If ones bees get any of this virus they will digest it, just like they would digest any other of the millions of plant viruses they ingest every day and will use the useful DNA and proteins as a food source. These sorts of viral pesticides actually represent a major bonus for beekeepers as the chances of any toxicity for our bees resulting is minimal. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey After careful consideration, I have decided that if I am ever a V.I.P the I. may not stand for important. (rather influential, ignorant, idiotic, intelectual, illadvised etc) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:06:31 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dave general Subject: Re: soap and how it kills Content-Type: text/plain Hi All, I didn't see Layne's post but I would like to add to Garth's explanation. Soap is a surfactant, eg. it changes the surface tension of a liquid. In addition, soap also overcomes the natural repulsion of water by an oily substance. Thus, soapy water "wets" the normally waterproof exoskeleton of the insect, particularly the hairs covering the spiracles or breathing holes. These hairs would normally prevent water from entering the spiracles. The surface tension of water is not breached by the hairs of the spiracles. Since insects respire directly, that is, they cannot "hold their breath", they drown in soapy water. Even aquatic insects will drown in soapy water. Dave General Cagayan de Oro City Philippines 16-year beekeeper ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:37:41 -0800 Reply-To: beeman@gci.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Organization: Home Subject: Re: The AHB component of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy, You are not alone in thinking that there is a great deal left unreported in respect to the AHB scenario. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:05:24 +0930 Reply-To: Frank Farrell Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Farrell Subject: Re: Moving hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom If you leave the nuc for more than a week, then bring it back, you should get a good result. If you leave it for only 2 days you will get an acceptable result considering that the parent hive is still in its old location to pick up any foraging bees that don't orient correctly to the nuc. I know a beekeeper who wanted to move half of his hives from an apiary to a spot less than a km. He moved them away for 24 hours, then moved them back to the new spot. He reported that a fair number of foraging bees remained with their hives after the move. When I set up a nuc I usually shake bees off 2 extra frames into the nuc, and leave the nuc sitting beside the parent hive facing backwards, making sure that there is pollen and honey in the nuc. Older bees in the nuc will return to the parent hive,but within a few days younger bees will begin foraging from the nuc. cheers Frank Frank Farrell Darwin NT Australia fmf@bigpond.com -----Original Message----- From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998 17:16 Subject: Moving hives >Hi All > >Thanks for your postings on the above subject. The consensus seems to be >that I will have to wait until all bees whose navigation system was locked >on to the old location are dead, before I can move the nuc back safely. >Obviously the later I move the nuc back the fewer bees will be lost from the >nuc to their old hive, and after about 3 weeks few if any will be lost. > >This raises a question for me at any rate. > >The bees that were flying when in their old location, are presently flying >using the land marks as they now exist, and with their navigation system >locked on to the present location of the nuc. It is postulated, that if the >nuc were returned to the old apiary, say today, that many of the bees would >recognise the old land marks, and would not re orient their navigation to >the new location of the nuc but rather to the location of their old hive. >This suggests that they are capable of storing their present location and a >previous location at the same time. > >Suppose I now moved them to yet another out apiary, say for a week, and then >move them back to the first location, what would happen then?. > >I am a hobbyist, as can be seen from this type of question, and I know that >a commercial beekeeper would probably not be interested in the least in >this. However I would be very grateful for any feed back. > >Sincerely > >Tom Barrett >49 South Park >Foxrock >Dublin 18 >Ireland > >e mail cssl@iol.ie >Tel + 353 1 289 5269 >Fax + 353 1 289 9940 > >Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North >Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:52:21 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Re: Should *I* Extract? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew & Tiffany Dubas wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave D. Cawley > > I'm going to have 7 medium supers from my hives. I've never > >extracted before, I had someone else do it for me for a few bucks. I can > >borrow an hand extractor from someone. Should I do it myslef or have my > >friend do it for me? What are the pitfalls of doing it myself for the > >first time > Just Do it. what a better way to learn. enjoy the experience of your > labor. there is nothing better. If your friend is a friend maybe ask him > over to help. However - 7 supers seems a lot to do with a hand extractor. If you do it, be sure your room and supers are quite warm (at least 85F, in my opinion) or it will take a long time doing it manually. Also, the small hand extractors tend to be tangential, which puts tremendous strain on the comb when full. Be very careful to start extremely slowly so as not to break the combs. A small radial extractor would be much easier to use, if you can get one. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:20:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Beehive odor Judy (A.K.A Dave Gaida) asks about a smell coming from a hive. Judy, the best description I ever heard of Goldenrod nectar is that it smells like old sneakers . I know the power of suggestion can be overwhelming, but if the smell is anything like sweaty socks, old sneakers, etc. it is definitely goldenrod. To me, the odor is not there once the nectar is reduced to honey. Lloyd LloydSpear@email.msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds the finest in comb honey production. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:31:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Soap and how it kills Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave General of the Phillipines wrote: >I didn't see Layne's post but I would like to add to Garth's >explanation. Soap is a surfactant, eg. it changes the surface tension of >a liquid. In addition, soap also overcomes the natural repulsion of >water by an oily substance. Thus, soapy water "wets" the normally >waterproof exoskeleton of the insect, particularly the hairs covering >the spiracles or breathing holes. These hairs would normally prevent >water from entering the spiracles. The surface tension of water is not >breached by the hairs of the spiracles. Since insects respire directly, >that is, they cannot "hold their breath", they drown in soapy water. >Even aquatic insects will drown in soapy water. ******** That is the best explanation I have yet seen on this topic. One hit with a stream of soapy water, and a yellow jacket wasp turns over and dies. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ************************************************************************ * "...in the drift of the years I by and by found out that a Consensus * * examines a new [idea] with its feelings rather oftener than with its * * mind. You know, yourself, that is so. Do those people examine with * * feelings that are friendly to evidence? You know they don't." * * * * Mark Twain * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:19:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Comb Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Every year I always produce some comb honey. I usually sell it in one pound wide mouth jars with liquid honey poured over top. Some refer to this as "chunk honey". I sell a fair amount at a good price. I also place a few pieces in containers to sell as cut comb although they don't sell nearly as well. A friend of mine produces about 5000 Ross Rounds every year. I usually would buy some from him for resale. He keeps trying to get me to produce more comb honey and less extracted. This year I thought I would try and I also thought I would share my results. First of all let me say that I do not claim to be an expert on comb honey production. Many of you produce far more than I ever will, and like everything in beekeeping you learn as you go and what works for one may not work for someone else. This year, in my area, the honey flow was not great for comb honey. It started early, then tended to be off and on throughout the season. One day they would be working hard the next there was nothing coming in. There are few different systems on the market for comb honey. I decided against the basswood sections because of the all the assembly work. This left cut comb, Ross Round (RR), and Hogg Cassette (HC). I have already been producing cut comb and the only thing I do that may be different is I produce 8 or 9 frames in a 10 frame super. I install permanent side boards on the inside of the supers with a 3/8 inch bee space. This allows the bees better movement on the side wall and all frames are drawn and filled. When using 10 frames the two outside frames don't always get filled. You can correct this by just moving these two frames to the center to be finished but it requires one more trip to the hive. Although I use both shallow and medium supers with equal success, in a year like this one the bottom of the frames were not always filled. With the mediums you can cut those empty or uncapped cells out and still have a piece of comb that fills the tall one pound jar. This is still a pretty simple way to produce good comb honey. As for the Ross Round and the Hogg Cassette, there were pluses and minuses to both. I had actually purchased the HC in a previous year but did not get to try it. I purchased a few more this year along with some RR. During the winter the folks at Betterbee had a GREAT sale on assembled RR supers. I hope they repeat it again next year. The initial cost of both systems are about the same. The bees seemed to work both equally well and, in spite of the season, I have really nice sections from both. After the initial purchase the price to refill/reuse RR is about half of the HC. You only purchase rings, covers and foundation. However, it took me about thirty minutes to refill a RR super. The HC refill comes complete and installs in about a minute. If time is essential or you are paying someone, then HC may be cost effective. The HC each super yields 40 twelve ounce sections that a cover is placed over. The RR super yields 32 eight ounce sections that have two covers . I have found that I can charge a slightly higher price for the larger section. It doesn't seem the make much difference to the customers at our farm market. Most of them have never had comb honey and usually opt for the least expensive item. One advantage I had with the RR was I was able to take out a few finished frames early before harvesting the entire crop. This was important this year because, I then had a constant supply and did not have to buy any. If you produce enough to carry you from harvest to harvest this is not important. Individual sections cannot be removed from the HC. While the HC produces more and larger sections per super I found one, IMHO, major flaw. If the bees propolize or attach any burr comb to the sections they are difficult to clean. The owner of the company suggests scraping the sections with a dull putty knife. If you do this you can get most, but not all, off. He further suggests that customers should realize that this is something that was in the hive with the bees and it is almost a selling point. This is true if I am doing the selling, but if it is being sold by someone else or on a store shelf, the customer may touch it and react the same way as they would to a sticky honey jar. I have found that most customers need quite a bite of education when it comes to "products from the hive". The RR section is completely sealed and always feels clean so this is not an issue. I will continue to make cut comb and have decided to expand and go with Ross Rounds. One other reason for this is the owner of the company, Lloyd Spear. I have spoken to him and found him to be very helpful in offering suggestions and management tips. He contributes to this list often and also wrote a great article that was published in Bee Culture (May ? 98). Comb honey offers challenges in management and other areas, but there two big advantages. The supers are always small, easy on the back, and there is no extracting chores. You can usually get help packaging comb honey from those who otherwise run from the extractor. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:14:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Organization: SMCOE Subject: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Beelings, I see a few posts on the Science News article regarding the antioxident properties of honey in this last months issue.. I have not heard anything about the article I read in the prior months Science News regarding the 90 Russian, mite resistant queens that were just passed throuth customs. Does anyone out there know about these mite resistant queens and who is going to get to try them out here in the states? How 'bout some info on when they may be available to us hobbists?? I don't believe the article stated anything regarding the Russian bees honey gathering ability either. I would like to hear from anyone who knows about these bees. Thanks, Mason -- Mason Harris, MA (\ SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:10:11 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Gaida Subject: SHOULD I EXTRACT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As new beekeepers, 2 years, 10 hives, we definitely recommend that you extract. It is time consuming, it makes a mess, it takes a lot of patience, there is some pain involved (similar to tennis elbow). But is more fun than taking off the cover of a mean hive and finding the ladies in a good mood today. Our first year we had the opportunity to buy a used hand powered extractor. We jumped at the chance. Knew absolutely nothing about the process. Read some books, asked some questions. Thought we would like to try it. Our try took us all day but did we learn! The difference in color, just when we were emptying the extractor into the bucket, there were layers of different colors. Personally, the extraction process reinforces the wonder of the bees. To hire it out seems similar to not reading the final chapter in a good mystery. You should try it, at least once. The process may or may not be addictive, but it definitely can be enlightening. Do it now before you have been a beekeeper for so long that you are tempted to forget why you were attracted to the ladies in the first place. Good Luck and see how much sweeter your honey tastes! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:19:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Hive Predators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All For some time now, I have been observing wasps attempting to gain entry to my hives, apparently without success. They always seem to be met with stern rebuke at the hive entrance, and as far as I can see they end up backing off. I have made all hive entrances quite small to assist the bees in this regard. To day, when I was examining one of the varroa floors, I noticed about a dozen ants scurrying around the varroa floor. I am now wondering, if these constitute a danger to the hive, since they have actually gained entrance, and will they bring in hordes of their brethern, and end up overwhelming the hive. Is any corrective action against them necessary or possible. Thanks for any assistance Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: DNBrown Subject: Re: Nasty Honey Smell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have heard that goldenrod honey, when it is being ripened, can smell unpleasant. It doesn't seem to affect the taste of the honey. D. Brown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:11:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Beehive odor In-Reply-To: <199809211242.FAA16165@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:20 AM 9/21/98 -0400, you wrote: >Judy (A.K.A Dave Gaida) asks about a smell coming from a hive. >Judy, the best description I ever heard of Goldenrod nectar is that it > smells like old sneakers . Years ago a local farmer went into the mint oil business and planted several hundred acres of mint. When it started to bloom I moved in a truck load of bee hives, maybe 120 hives. It really looked good so I just could not wait to see the results so I returned to have a peek several days later. It was really exciting even before I got out of the truck I could see judging by the flight that the bees were into it. As soon as I got out of the truck I detected the odor of AFB and started to check to see what I could find. It was not long before I found that every hive I opened smelled like they were rotten with AFB but had none and in fact they were in a very good honey flow and had just about filled the combs with nectar. Several weeks later after a trip to add supers and one to raise up the full honey supers I returned to take off a very nice crop of mint honey and was happy to see the mint had been harvested and was starting to bloom again. At the time I was extracting the honey from the bees in that area at someone else's honey house and I extracted it. The honey had a brown cast to its color and did have a odor that I never got used too and also had a different taste that was not bad, or at least one you could get used too. I was happy to sell it and the price was not that good. The interesting part of this story is that the odor stayed in that honey house for years, its gone now but for years you could walk in and not help to think someone was extracting honey from AFB hives. I never did ask the owner if I could use it again and I would not have been surprised if he would have wanted to double the rent. ttul, the OLd Drone 50,000 supers lost to fire! http://beenet.com/bnews.htm (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:55:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Re: SVBA October meeting In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970419093227.0067f754@mail.comet.net>; from "Guy Miller" at Apr 19, 97 5:32 am Hello Guy, I just got a confirmation from Rick Fell that he will speak to our club's October meeting again this year. Probably on the new hive beetle and other lesser-known pests and parasites. We will meet in the Mary Switzer Building of the Woodrow Wilson Rehab Center at 7:30 pm on October 15. Attila knows whre it is. I plan to meet Rick for dinner at the South River Restaurant on the western edge of Waynesboro at 6:00. Anyone who wishes is welcome to join us. Hope to see you Fred