From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:13:27 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26496 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09767 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171613.MAA09767@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:20 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9811D" To: adamf@TITAN.METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 177835 Lines: 4098 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:36:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Wolford I am doing a project on Honey bees, and I really need to know the complete classification of them. ( Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. ) Any information would be of use. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:31:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Re: Hard telling, not knowing!! On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:48:44 PST Ernest Gregoire writes: >ask some question regarding wiring frames vs support pins. >It didn't occur to me just how expensive pins were ... > Using wire is more work, but not that much more, especially considering the cost. Ernie; After being invited to take over an abandoned beeyard, during the clean-up of the discarded equipment I noticed that the previous occupant had relied on 'bobby pins' to hold the foundation straight in the frames. It looked good to me... and has proved to bee quick, inexpensive (cheap) and reliable. With the use of a radial extractor my first concern is to hold the foundation straight until the workers draw out the comb, not re-enforcing each frame for the honey house operations. Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:30:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Sr. Monica Ryan" Subject: FERMENTATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to All! Another question! It is said that fermentation is more likely to happen after honey crystalises than at any other time. would some body please tell me why this so . I need an answer invery simple lay person's language - Science is not my forte. Many thanks in anticipation Sr. Catherine Duffy. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:06:44 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: a beekeeping occasion to remember! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just wanted to share a beekeeping experience with you. Whilst loading honey on the truck while my partner investigated brood boxes, there was a call for urgent assistance on the smoker. Unfortunately I neglected to check my own suit was adequately fastened and no sooner had I arrived amongst the agitated bees than a very annoyed bee found its way in and made threatening noises in my ear. As an instinctive reaction I slapped my hand over the noise-maker to attempt to prevent further assaults while I moved clear of the mob. By the time I had got behind the truck the bee had disappeared entirely - into my ear. My partner attempted to see it while I gave progress reports of the tickling sensation as tiny bee feet attempted to move around corners - I was surprised by how much space there was. The bee was not visible from outside. The recommended first aid treatment for insects in ears (float out with warm water) did not seem appropriate out in the field, so we settled for a few puffs from the smoker to disorient it. I reclined, with that ear towards the sun, for several minutes reporting on the bee's attempts to turn around. It then decided to back out and did so at length, eventually emerging into daylight. I did not actually get stung, before, during or after. I think this is one experience I prefer to have happen once in a lifetime! Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Swarming season over...at last MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just a report from Kangaroo Island, in case everybody has forgotten me! Swarming season has been even more hectic than usual. With 6000 hectares of canola this year on Kangaroo Island and only 1100 registered hives, the farmers have probably been receiving great pollination benefit from the feral hives existing in hives, burrows, buildings, tree hollows. However as most feral hives run out of room under pressure of a honey/pollen source such as canola or capeweed, swarms issue daily for a period of about 4 weeks. Local beekeepers both capture swarms and place trap hives to entice feral swarms. As only pure Ligurian bees exist on the Island, these can be incorporated into apiaries for breeding queens or replenishing hive losses. We have captured/trapped 42 swarms to date. There are still some full trap hives out in the apiaries so will probably finish with about 50 swarms added to our stocks. The most successful attractant was a small casuarina tree just over the road from our back fence. We got into the habit of glancing over the fence on warm days - more often than not, another swarm had arrived. We took 16 swarms this year from that tree. Hope it doesn't grow too high by next season. Another favourite site was in our driveway where some condemned frames were in old nucleus boxes - swarms would continually fill the space around the car and settle in. A very intriguing sight to watch swarms in full flight and how quickly they zero in on the selected box when they have a dozen to choose from. Collecting feral swarms is a good way to build up stocks but in a heavy swarming season you don't want your own hives to swarm and cut down production. We have not been 100% successful although the trap hives are a fall back position if the hives do swarm. However our swarm management appears more successful this year than previously. The principle of our swarm management is to separate the queen and any potential queens from the field bees. To do this, we use a screen divider board based on the Snelgrove method but with only one exit which we orient to the back of the hive. We lift the queen and any unsealed brood above the screen division so that field bees will return to the front entrance and the queen and nurse bees will remain in the top box. Apiary visits are at intervals of 3 to 4 weeks per site. On the next visit, we remove the screen division, remove any sealed honey from bottom box and return queen and brood to bottom brood box. Any bees that have oriented to the back of the hive seem to find their way to the front and the hives are strong and have lost the swarming impulse. The queen has continued to lay and the hive is bursting with bees. We requeen in autumn as an additional swarm control method. In addition, the honey has been flowing in and we have taken 3-1/2 tonnes over the last 3 months from 150 hives. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the season continues to be successful. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: honey wine MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In Germany I had honey wine and I was wonderig if anybody has heard of it, >made it, or had the recipe for it. > At our Association meeting a visitor brought home-brewed beer which had been prepared with a member's honey (it was a mild ground flora honey that won most praise as against the stronger flavours). Being only an occasional beer drinker and this being my first taste of home-brew I cannot really compare it to a standard - the other beekeepers voted the beer to be "quite acceptable". Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Conrad Sigona Subject: Re: FERMENTATION In-Reply-To: <199811221536.KAA09669@newport.ntcnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Another question! It is said that fermentation is more likely to happen > after honey crystalises than at any other time. would some body please > tell me why this so . I need an answer invery simple lay person's > language - Science is not my forte. It is the concentration of sugar dissolved in the liquid which stops the honey from fermenting. If honey crystallizes, sugar that was spread throughout the honey winds up in the crystals, in effect lowering the concentration of sugar in the remaining liquid. At some point, enough of the sugar has crystallized and the concentration in the liquid becomes low enough to permit fermentation. Conrad Sigona conrad@ntcnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:10:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Latitude and Longitude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been observing this discussion with interest. As one who has traveled a fair amount (I, for one, knew that Lithuanian is part of the Canary Islands, just off the coast of Australia, and next to Crete) I have learned that latitude and longitude mean very little concerning weather conditions. Hobbyists and other beginning beekeepers should use extreme caution in relating latitude and longitude to climate for purposes of beekeeping. When I started international travel in the mid-60's, I expected climates to roughly correspond with latitude. Of course, I had learned in school about the Gulf Stream and Humboldt Current, but nothing prepared me for the magnitude of their effects on the land masses that are adjacent to their East, where they are effected by the prevailing winds. London is 51.30 N, .07 West (thank you, John). That places the United Kingdom, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Northern Germany at roughly the same latitude as Hudson's Bay in Canada. Many Americans, and all Canadians, will recognize that area as being considered uninhabitable (except for a very few Native Canadians), yet millions of Europeans happily live and work at that latitude. The reason, of course, is the warm Gulf Stream which originates in the tropical Atlantic and is hundreds of miles wide and still very warm when it reaches Europe. The prevailing winds distribute some of that warmth to the Eastern and Central part of the continent. The effects are significant far inland. Rome, for example, is on roughly the same latitude as NYC, yet has a climate roughly equivalent to our Florida. The Humboldt Current, originating off the coast of Antarctica, is extremely cold. The effect on South America is the opposite of the effect of the Gulf Stream on Europe. Peru, Chile, etc. have temperate climates, while Africa, on the same latitude, is tropical. Albany, New York, where I live, is 42.39 North, 73.45 West. That is considerably south of London, yet our climate is much, much colder. The difference in climate is so pronounced that practices for matters such as wax moth control, Varroa treatment, supering and queen production all need to be very different. Someone suggested identifying climate by reference to the United States Department of Agriculture plant hardiness zones. That would work well, especially if the micro-zones such as those published by Sunset were also used. Unfortunately, they mean nothing to those in other countries. If a reader is interested in the climate prevailing elsewhere, the most reliable indicators might be to ask what crops and fruits are grown. Crops such as cotton, tobacco, and rice are dead give-aways, as are fruits such as apples, pomegranates, peaches, and bananas. Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: dublgully@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Gaida Subject: Winter Storage Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Finally finished with all the deep brood and honey frames from our dead hives. We kept them in the freezer for a week to kill all the wax moths. Now we are taking them to the honey room to store them over the winter. Hopefully, to use next year with new packages and splits. Here's the question: The brood boxes and food boxes still have some honey in them. Not full frames. Above the brood and around the edges. We did not extract these frames. If we store the boxes using the paramoth crystals, can we still use these frames in the spring. Will the honey be contaminated and not healthy for the bees. These frames are deep, we only extract the mediums, so we are sure the honey will never be taken for human consumption. Or, as we froze the wax moths, do we need to put the paramoth on for the winter. Our winters do not stay at or below freezing. Quite often we have two warming spells around mid-January and mid-February, it can go up to 65 deg. F for days at a time, and not fall below 40 deg. F at night. Unfortunately because we lost so many hives, there is not enough room in the freezer for all the frames all winter. Your help is, once again, gratefully appreciated. Thanks. Judy in Kentucky, USA 84.5 W; 38.5 N ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: dublgully@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Gaida Subject: Hive Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another piece to the hive loss puzzle. In each hive that died, there was a cluster (?) of bees, about 2 to 3 inches diameter, with their heads in the combs. This cluster was in the brood box but was away from any brood rearing area. No honey. No queen. Just empty, drawn combs. Usually close to the edge of the frame. Covering this cluster there was a minute quantity of worker bees. They all died in place. Would it do any good to cut out one of the clusters and send it for testing? Thanks. Judy in Kentucky 84.5 W; 38.5 N ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:57:11 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: How much does a full super weigh? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, First, thank you to all who answered my support pin question. Bobby pins would have saved me $80.00 this year. I am trying to plan for next years honey crop of comb honey and I have been getting conflicting information about winter stores. I attended a bee school and was told that honey weighs X amount of pounds and to leave X amount for the bees. In planning for the up comming year I want to know how much each super weighs in order to know how much to leave the bees. So far I have been told that a full deep 9-5/8 super has 50 lbs of honey and will weight 70 pounds including bees and frames and comb. Someone else says a full deep super will weigh 60 lbs, and another says 80 lbs yet another says 90 lbs. I have read these varying weights from articles in Gleanings, from published books, from bee supply catalogs, and also from "Proffessional" beekeepers. I have not had a full super of capped honey to weigh myself this year. (Just starting out). So my question is this; What does a super weigh that has 10 frames, and is 9-5/8" and is full of capped honey? How much of the weight is honey? How about a 10 frame 6-5/8" super,and a 10 frame 5-3/4" super, ( this is called a 5-11/16" super in some catalogs.) How much of this weight is honey? I would like to hear from the folks who actually put the supers on a scale. I realize that there will be some variation in weight from super to super, but 40 lbs of variation?. de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 11/22/98 14:57:11 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:29:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert E Butcher Subject: Re: Swarmin with AHB Hello, I would like to know if anybody knew of a place where I could get the Box Style swarm Traps? Brushy Mountain has themfor $ 19.95 each. If posible I would like to get them cheeper. Thanks for your help. God Bless You Robert&Teresa Butcher bobbees@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:46:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Suzanne Maloon Subject: Cost of land to rent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For any of you that house your bees on someone elses land-- What do you pay in rent? An answer before tomorrow would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Suzanne _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:39:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Holbrook Subject: Re: Classification of the Honey Bee (Apis mellifera) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, This is a good question. The Classification of the Honey Bee (Apis mellifera): Kingdom - Animalia Phylum - Arthropoda Class - Insecta Order - Hymenoptera Superfamily - Apoidea Family - Apidae Subfamily - Apinae Genus - Apis Species - mellifera You should note that anytime a genius or species is written, it should either be underlined or italicized. There are finer details such as sub-classes to the Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus and species. There is also a Super-family designation and a tribe designation. This is not needed in this discussion but I just wanted you to be aware of these finer classifications. Often times these classifications become hotly contested. As more and more organisms have their DNA analyzed, you should expect some interesting changes their classifications. I hope that this helps! Later, Jeffro _ _ (o!o) Jeff Holbrook ((___)) holbrook@northnet.org ---"-"--- Canton, NY -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU] On Behalf Of John Wolford Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 9:37 PM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: I am doing a project on Honey bees, and I really need to know the complete classification of them. ( Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. ) Any information would be of use. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:43:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Beeswax and Cold Cream labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I am looking for some more assistance! I am going to have a go at selling some Beeswax Polish and bees wax based Cold Cream, as I have a fair amount of beeswax. I have software which prints labels. What I need are some attractive bit maps to show bees or other hive based pictures which will give a 'bees' message. Any help in the form of actual bit maps or otherwise will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:11:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: FERMENTATION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/22/98 10:35:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, mr@DROGHEDA.EDUNET.IE writes: > It is said that fermentation is more likely to happen > after honey crystalises than at any other time. would some body please > tell me why this so . I need an answer invery simple lay person's > language - Science is not my forte. The bees dry out the honey until it is below 18% moisture. Yeast cannot reproduce in such a concentrated sugar solution. But when honey crystallizes, the crystals are nearly pure sugar, and the water comes to the surface of the crystals. This water can provide a medium for yeast to begin reproduction. Crystallized honey will not ferment completely (to make mead or honey wine) unless water is added. The fermentation that occurs in the watery film is just enough to make off-tastes in the honey. I've never seen enough of that to be of any real damage, except when honey is left crystallized in a very warm location. Crystallized honey, stored in drums in a cool warehouse, will restore to almost its original flavor, when reliquified. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: How much does a full super weigh? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have never weighed a 9 5/8" super, but I have weighed the extracted honey from several 6 5/8" supers and they range from 30 to 35 lbs with most around the 33 lb weight. ( These are 10 frame supers). Given that the 9 5/8" super is roughly half again as big, it should weigh about 50 lbs. Ian Watson ian@gardener.com real estate agent baritone gardener beekeeper---> 11 colonies >What does a super weigh that has 10 frames, >and is 9-5/8" and is full of capped honey? >How much of the weight is honey? > >How about a 10 frame 6-5/8" super,and a 10 frame 5-3/4" super, >( this is called a 5-11/16" super in some catalogs.) >How much of this weight is honey? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:40:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Cost of land to rent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't remember where I read of heard it, but normally "rent" is paid in honey and the amount of honey given to the land- owner is 5% of your honey harvest from your colonies at that particular apiary. Ian Watson ian@gardener.com real estate agent baritone gardener beekeeper---> 11 colonies >For any of you that house your bees on someone elses land-- >What do you pay in rent? An answer before tomorrow would be greatly >appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:27:39 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: weight of hivebody MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I weighed one once. The hivebody(9 5/8) full of honey(9 combs) weighed 82lbs. After extracting the honey, the hivebody and 9 wet combs weighed 19 lbs. That's 63 lbs of honey. No wonder my fingers look like this. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:41:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas W Hoyt Subject: Re: bee sting desensitization Is there a difference between a bee sting "allergy" and the fact that when I get stung the spot gets red, itches, swells a bit, etc? I'm a novice - 5 years and a few hives. I get stung 3- 4 times a year. Best guess, should I go to an alergist/ or consider a desensitization program? If I were to go through the "desensitization" would I not be bothered at all by the occasional sting (as if it were just a splinter)? Pastor Thomas W. Hoyt Our Redeemer Lutheran Church Forsyth, IL Almost Heaven-C.I.D. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:11:16 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: weight of hive body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ernest Gregoire requests information about how much a super of honey weighs. Beekeepers have a lot of opinions but not much fact unless they actually weigh the supers. I don't know of anyone who has regularly weighed supers or hives. I do know several commercial beekeepers who used to weigh hives to get an idea of how much honey should be put into them in October prior to the move to California. Mostly they just guess. By working each hive they roughly judge the number of combs of honey they think they may need, or they heft the hive from the front to judge its weight. By the end of the day, I'll guarantee you, the hives weigh more than in the morning because they are tired of lifting. The weight of a super of honey will vary depending on the age and condition of comb, the number of combs in a box, the dry or wet weight of the super, cedar vs. pine supers, and weight of the combs. That is why I have always prescribed the amount of winter stores in number of full deep Langstroth combs. Here in Washington, a two-story deep hive, with 20 combs of bees on Sept. first, needs ten combs of honey between September and March. Usually the configuration in the hive will be eight to 8.5 combs in the top deep, with open comb in the lower center for clustering. Usually there will be one deep comb of honey against the hive walls in the lower brood nest, with honey arches in the other eight combs. This would add up to 10-12 combs of honey. If you winter three story deep hives, with 25-28 combs of bees on Sept. first, they will need about 12-13 deep combs of honey. Western frames are about 2/3rds of a deep comb. Three westerns equal two deeps approximately. You will need roughly 15 western combs of honey to winter three westerns full of bees on Sept. 1. If you winter four westerns full of bees on Sept. 1, you will need 20 western combs of honey. Ernest is in NH so I don't know how his winters equate to ours here in the real Washington. Consult your State Apiarist. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:08:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BILL HUGHES JR Subject: Cost of land to rent Suzanne, The standard yard rent I pay is 3# of honey per colony. Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm ____ Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm Brighton, Tennessee USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Cost of land to rent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne Maloon wrote: > What do you pay in rent? An answer before tomorrow would be greatly > appreciated. > Most of my bees are on others property. They are all very satisfied with one 24 lb case of honey per year for a yard of 12 - 15 or so hives. Those who have asked for bees to be placed mainly for pollination are satisfied with the pollination service - I get to keep all the honey from those yards. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:47:27 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Judy of KY - bee losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been following Judy's discussion of her losses of bee colonies. I would add the following remarks to her recent discussion: 1. On 11/21 Judy talks about sending bee samples to Beltsville for examination. The results came back negative probably because so many of the bees that may have had HBTM are now dead and the remaining bees may in fact be clean. However, the colony cluster size is so small that it can't possibly exist on its own. And after the loss of so many bees, the colony is now demoralized and not likely to survive. I have noted over the years that a colony of six combs of bees or less will not winter unless placed over a large colony. Eight frames of bees is the absolute minimum that might make it through the winter in warm climates. Even with an excellent queen and a high level of vitality, it will shrink to about four combs of bees in the spring. But there are so many factors which influence wintering success that my seemingly clear 6 and 8 frames statement seems rather simplistic. We can't say at this point whether HBTM had any impact on your colony losses. I am presuming that your Apistan treatment in the spring and fall was adequate to control Varroa, unless, the mites were tolerant of the fluvalinate. The robbing episode took place because the colony was weak, for one or more reasons, at the time it happened. I don't recall now how much you may have said about the amount of pollen and honey stores in the hives since you started them. When giving this data, I recommend beekeepers give it in terms of the number of deep Langstroth or western combs full of either pollen or honey. This allows us to visualize what your saw in the hives. If your area experienced a dry summer and nectar dearth, the colonies will deteriorate over time. Not knowing your experience level, I'm cautious about presuming that all colonies had adequate nutrition. You stated that the colonies did not appear to have any disease during the summer. This indicates to me that you did not observe "disease-like" symptoms. So you wouldn't have seen something like European Foulbrood. Nor would you have seen its look-alike, recently described as mite syndrome. I wonder about the "weird queen behavior" you observed. Can you describe what you observed for the benefit of the members of this list? 2. 11/22: Storing honey supers. If you put the supers in the freezer for a week you have probably killed all wax moth life stages. Yes you can use Paramoth crystals and still use the brood nests next spring. Just put them in a place where they can air out for 24-48 hours before you put bees in them. The bees will use the honey without any observable negative impact. If you are storing the supers in a dry cool basement or garage, you may not need paramoth. If your basement is warm I'd probably suggest using paramoth, or moth cakes, because they are pretty cheap and I haven't had any experience with freezing supers. 3. 11/22 You say the small cluster "was away from any brood rearing area." The brood rearing area is the greater part of the lower two brood chambers. Your descriptions suggest that the colony had no honey and no queen. The following questions arise: a) how long had the queens been dead? b) how long had they been out of honey and maybe pollen? c) did yellow jackets or other bees rob out the hives? The symptoms you describe suggest that the colonies have not been viable for four to eight weeks or maybe more. With the current reports of high losses in package bees for the last six years, and your "weird queen" comment, I suspect one or more of the following occurred. a) The original queens in the package disappeared between introduction and fall, b) One or more of the original queens may have been superceded, with more or less success and quality of offspring, c) Sufficient pollen and honey stores may not have been present at any time, d) If you started with foundation in the frames, you may have not fed the bees for the proper length of time for them to become properly established as viable colonies, e) Pending your description of the "weird queen behavior," I think it highly likely that the queen stock was inferior. But it must be said that if you put a good queen into a poor colony with poor nutrition, she can't perform as she may have been bred to do. It will not serve any purpose to have the remaining clusters tested. I am awaiting your kind response. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:47:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Swarmin with AHB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/22/98 6:31:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobbees@JUNO.COM writes: > Hello, > I would like to know if anybody knew of a place where I could > get the Box Style swarm Traps? Brushy Mountain has themfor $ 19.95 each. > If posible I would like to get them cheeper. Use a 9-5/8 hive body with plywood tacked on for covers- even better if you use used hive bodies the bees have put propolis on. This way you end up with extra hive bodies which are always usefull. If you use real old ratty hive bodies make sure they stay light tight at the top. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: yard rent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been paying a case of honey(30 lbs) for several years. I've heard a pound a hive for commercial yard. This year I gave 36 lbs, and 2 cut comb. Some people dont want honey. I paid them $40 and 1 cut comb. Then again, there's the dairy farm run by two brothers. They don't want honey or money. I give them each 1 quart of honey, 1 cut comb, and a 30-pack of Genesee Beer. To each his own. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:33:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Judy in Kentucky. I don't know what the USDA zones mean but I doubt if they are relevant to your problems. I am sorry to read of your losses. They must be distressing as nobody likes to lose their bees especially such a large proportion. I haven't got an answer for you, only more questions. If you lived a little nearer you could join our local association's bee buddy system and somebody would come and lean over your shoulder to help and advise. If you are a member of your local beekeeping association perhaps they could help. >From your mail you seem to have covered most of the likely possibilities although I have my reservations expressed before on the list about treating your bees for problems they don't have. If nothing worse, the treatment (putting something in your hives that the bees wouldn't themselves bring in) must at least be stressful. Your bees were clear of mites. Did the lab check for nosema (unlikely to be a problem in summer) or viruses (more likely), or poison sprays? I assume you can recognise AFB and EFB and that they were clear. The problem must be fairly local and specific to your bees or you would not have found swarms in the area. Have you treated your hives with preservative? Have you left them short of stores? Is there a nearby supply of water? Are they in a place where they are exposed to excessive wind and weather or disturbance from animals? What crops are being grown locally and how are they treated? Are you downwind from a nuclear power station or military establishment? I probably haven't asked the right question but I hope I have given you a clue as to the sort of question you should ask yourself. Chris Slade (temperate maritime climate, don't ask about the weather) about 51N 3W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:32:43 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: Cost of land to rent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometimes a careful explenation of the benefits to the land owner that the bees would provide will secure the land for free. >>For any of you that house your bees on someone elses land-- >>What do you pay in rent? An answer before tomorrow would be greatly >>appreciated. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:05:10 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Swarm catching boxes Comments: To: bobbees@JUNO.COM Hi Robert/All You mention an interest in getting swarm boxes. A number of cheap alternatives exist. 1 - Ammo crates. Befriend you local army base and see about doing a bee demo in exchange for a few M16 ammo boxes. Our South African made R1 Rifle is similar as far as ammo goes and these crates take three frames perfectly, have a lid and handles, are plastic and robust etc. Just paint the inside with dirty wax and propolis mixed together and put wax strips on the frames. Hang in sun facing corner of a building. 2 - milk, beer etc crates. Check the sizes of plastic crates used for packing - many are the same dimensions as a frame. Much easier and cheaper to sort out as hive bodies than buying things. And the best is just to buy a new box, or boxes for your established hives. Move them into the new boxes and leave the old BEEn in boxes for the swarms. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:30:12 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: AHB swarming impulse Comments: To: edwards@TUCSON.ARS.AG.GOV Hi John/All John, you mentioned how you were slightly confused about the number of big africanized swarms you get in fall, and also whether they were absconding or not. Also mentioned you saw swarming before the stores in the afro hives had run out. There are a number of things here - I know some of my colonies will swarm at the end of a flow - when the pollen sources dry up, just before the bees turf the drones. I think this may be a way of circumventing an unpredictable climate. Send out the queen, who has burnt out and get a new one that may have to last through a long drought. In africa winters are not too cold. Contrary to polular belief however scutellata can survive long cold periods (such as those in Sutherland - although hybrid scut/capensis I think, they handle -20C for sometimes quite long times). When spring comes there may be many flowers, or there may not. Either way it will be warm. So you don't need a big spring starting cluster - hence sending of a swarm which may hit it lucky or may not is quite a good plan for the bees as they then can survive a long time on the ammassed resources. Check those swarms - many probably don't even have queens. It is not uncommon for a capensis colony to swarm queenless. Big swarms also often happen by amalgamation - both capensis and scutellata are known to send out queen less swarms that will amalagamate with other swarms and may eventually join another colony. Some strains of scutellata are good drone layers - the workers will raise tons of drone brood above the super in spring. This may be why. On the whole though one is just seeing the effects of a bee which can afford that much more extravagance in that it can get just that much more distance per unit of honey. It's sort of like comparing somebody who earns 20 000 units and drives a car which uses 10 000 units in fuel and 10 000 units on education of two kids a year to somebody who earns 20 000 units and drives a Fiat Uno which uses 2000 units a year. The second driver can afford to raise a certain number more kids and can risk more with them - because they produce some at good times and some at bad times. Quite interesting though. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:17:11 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re Wires and Pins Hi Ernie/All In South Africa we have a problem with theft of combs (quite a big one). Hence I actually use fencing wire (0.5 - 0.7mm) wire as it is stronger and when thieves cut the combs out they at least dont trash your wires, so next time you extract the extracter simultaneusly dumbs every comb and jumps on your foot (happened to me twice). (Somebody stole my combs and the bees built them back and I did not know the wires were gone.) As for brood frames - I don't extract them so I don't wire them. Here we donn't use full sheets of wax on a frame, just a strip accross the top.( cost it out - wax costs me SAR5.00 a sheet, and sugar SAR36 for 12.5 kilograms - so it works out cheaper to buy sugar and use less wax sheeting). To make sure the combs are secured just cut corks in half and nail them to the sides of the frames halfway down - the bees attach the combs to the cork, securing it. Later they may attach it to the sides depending on their feelings about sticking to the rules of bee space that we like to think they follow. Once you have had a few generations (2 years) of brood through a frame (so that it is black) you can actually extract it without wiring at all!! Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 15:42:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: Threats to bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain One of my (high school) students last week asked me what are the five biggest threats to beekeeping today. I said I would ask the list. What would YOU say? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:42:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "HELP" Subject: Re: FERMENTATION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/11/98 15:35:30, you write: << Hello to All! Another question! It is said that fermentation is more likely to happen after honey crystalises than at any other time. would some body please tell me why this so . I need an answer invery simple lay person's language - Science is not my forte. Many thanks in anticipation Sr. Catherine Duffy. >> Trying to keep the ideas simple:- Honey is a solution of sugar crystals in water. Most of the sugars are monosaccharides which are rings of six carbon molecules with attached hydrogen and oxygen molecules. These are fructose and glucose. Ignore the fructose for the moment, because it is very very soluble, but let's look at the glucose. This sugar is much more likely to come out of solution and grow into crystals. When it does so, it discards a molecule of water each time it forms a crystalline bond. (This molecule of water is not part of the sugar molecule, but is water that is weakly bonded to the glucose in the solution.) Imagine then that the water content of your honey before it started to crystallise was,let's say 19%. As it crystallises, you now have two components - a solid crystal part, and the liquid portion that is left between the crystals. This liquid part has absorbed all the water that has been cast off by the growing crystals. Consequently the water content of the liquid part may be up to say 23%, which is an environment in which yeast can thrive. That is why you get the curious situation of a honey which is more likely to granulate when it has crystallised than when it is liquid. The topic is fascinating, and one which I wish I understood better. Regards Matthew J Allan Thornes of Windsor, England and Bee Biz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:42:28 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Possible cause of the Queen crisis Comments: To: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Hi All/Jerry Jerry, you mentioned you have noticed some big problems with queens and brood patches this year, inlcluding bad brood patches etc. I have a potentially very simple explanation for how this may occur. I recently heard the rather bizarre piece of information that it has been found that a young unmated queen lays eggs that are diploid for about four to five days, then goes out on a mating flight and then comes back, can lay drone eggs from that point until she begins layig worker eggs again. If we assume that the number of breeders in the US has declined, that they are under greater pressure in worse beekeeping conditions it is very possible that many queens are consdidered mated because they have begun laying and are sent of. In fact they are unmated and arrive in some distant apiary in the middle of a horrible season still and there is not a drone in sight. Maybe they squeene in a single quickie with one lucky lad, but given that the beekeeper has probably requeened 300 hives there are not many lucky lads, so all the drones are used up, the queens become predominanly drone layers, are superceded in areas with still weak hives that have not reared many drones and the result is bad naturally reared queens probably selective for drones reared of african stock (which rear drones faster, and often have drone laying workers who sneak eggs in before the queen gets droning). Seems plausible to me. Simple way to test it - from any hive that supercedes withing a week of requeening, or some short time period like that, take the queen cell, pop in alcohol. Take a sample of capped brood if any - into alcohol. If my theory is right, DNA analysis by most techniques should show most of the offspring to be pretty much identical to the queen. Just an idea Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:53:00 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: Latitude and Longitude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The main purpose of indicating latitude and longitude is so that the readers on the list can easily identify the location of the beekeeper that lives in foreign and far off lands. Once the location identified in an atlas or on a globe, then one can begin to divine local climate. Or better yet, ask the writer to describe the climate in a private exchange. It will be easier to find the Fiji Islands on a globe using the Lat. and Long. of 18S, 178E than by checking the name of every speck one a globe. For those who prefer the old fashion method, try starting in the South Pacific. Question: How many of you have a world map on the wall with pins marking the locations of the beekeepers they know? (Not me) John Lewis Somewhere in the south pacific. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:24:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: Re: FERMENTATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sr. Catherine, As I understand it, when the honey crystallises some of the honey becomes more watery, and some less. The less watery honey is the stuff that then ferments as there is not enough 'sugar' to prevent it. Is that simple enough? Have you had a problem with fermenting honey? All the best, Madeleine Pym ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:18:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Re: Hard telling, not knowing!! In-Reply-To: <199811221006.FAA77384@pen3.pen.k12.va.us>; from "Richard E Leber" at Nov 21, 98 6:31 pm According to Richard E Leber: > > On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:48:44 PST Ernest Gregoire > writes: > > >ask some question regarding wiring frames vs support pins. > >It didn't occur to me just how expensive pins were ... > > > Using wire is more work, but not that much more, especially considering > the cost. I have found Mann Lake's Rite-cell plastic foundation to be comparable in cost to crimp-wired wax foundation, and a whole lot less work. Just bend it slightly & snap into the frame. It's also practically indestructible, whatever happens to the comb drawn on it, the bees will rebuild. A good product -- I'm sure similar foundation made by others is also OK. Regards, Fred Virginia, USA 79.05 W. 38.02 N. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:00:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: honeybee classification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Wolford wrote: > I am doing a project on Honey bees, and I really need to know the complete > classification of them. ( Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, > Species. ) Any information would be of use. Kingdom: Animal Phylum: Arthropoda Class: Insecta Order: Hymenoptera Family: Apidae Genus: Apis Species: mellifera In addition, there is the superfamily, Apioidea (which includes Apidae), the tribe Apinae (which includes Apis), and many subspecies or races of A. mellifera (all of which are true honeybees). Note that honeybee is one word. Ted Fischer Dexter. Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:22:30 -0500 Reply-To: lithar@midwest.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: bee sting desensitization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas W Hoyt wrote: > > Is there a difference between a bee sting "allergy" and the fact that > when I get stung the spot gets red, itches, swells a bit, etc? BIG difference! You are not having an allergic reaction just a normal, and it sounds mild, reaction to the bee venom. When you suffer incapacitating swelling/pain, nausea, loss of breath and/or consciousness you might want to seek medical help. Course I'm NOT a doctor so I'm not pretending to practice medicine here. My reaction is pretty much like what you described - but I do keep an epi pen around just in case. AL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:28:52 -0500 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Acarine - acarapis woodi - tracheal mites In-Reply-To: <199811190749.HAA17699@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 07:49:44 GMT Send reply to: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Acarine - acarapis woodi - tracheal mites To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > This is my second year with bees, and one of my apiaries - 3 hives - has > been stricken with Acarine. Lots of hives have Acarine or Tracheal mites. A lot depends on the amount of mites per bee! There is always the economics to consider when discussing medication. If there are only perhaps one or two mites per bee then it can be ignored, the bees will still manage. It's only when the mite count begins to affect the bees performance that one needs to worry. Ultimately replace the queen with one of known T-mite resistance. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:16:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Hough Subject: Cost of land to rent -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Suzanne asked about "rent", and Ian responded with "5% of your honey". For the majority of our outyards, the land owners have been happy with a 2 lb. jar of honey per colony per year, which is a bit less than 5% of my production. I'm not sure if that means I'm a cheap S.O.B. or a good negotiator.... (or just plain lucky?) Rick Hough, rshough@tasc.com Just a bit NE of Boston, MA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:16:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 21 Nov 1998 to 22 Nov 1998 In-Reply-To: <911797383.203495.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <911797383.203495.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Automatic digest processor writes >It is said that fermentation is more likely to happen >after honey crystalises than at any other time. would some body please >tell me why this so . VERY simply, honey is a super-saturated solution of sugars suspended in water. When the sugars begin to return to a more natural (stable) condition, the sugars (usually the glucose) come out of suspension and it forms crystals, (or granulates). As the sugars separate the space between the grains is taken up by tiny particles of air and water. (The frosting seen on the side of jars). When the temperatures are right, this is manna to the wild yeasts present in the honey, which get to work causing fermentation (as in baking or brewing). The three main causes of fermentation are too high a water content in the honey (unripe) when extracted, containers not airtight allowing absorbstion of air and moisture from the atmosphere,- it doesn't need much, and temperature. Honey should be stored below 50 deg F (32 deg C) to slow fermentation. This is very basic but enough for your needs I hope. -- Tom Speight ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:52:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bee Sting Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "when I get stung the spot gets red, itches, swells a bit, etc?" "should I worry about this?" I am a lowly beekeeper, not a doctor...but I did have to go through a desensitization program 25 years ago. My symptoms, which required the program, was difficulty breathing. IMHO, your reactions are normal and you need not be concerned. However, be careful and watch your symptoms. I understand the poison effects the nervous system so that muscles do not receive the signals they should to operate properly. If you have any difficulty breathing or feel light-headed after a sting or stings, run, do not walk, to an emergency room. With only 3-4 stings a year, you may not develop an immune response to stings, so the symptoms might continue. Lloyd Email LloydSpear@msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds(tm), the finest in comb honey production. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:52:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "five biggest threats to beekeeping today?" Let's see, if we define this as threats to US beekeeping: Varroa mites; improper use of pesticides; inexpensive imports of honey; urbanization; and possibly the USDA. Lloyd Email LloydSpear@msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds(tm), the finest in comb honey production. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:10:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Threats to bees? In-Reply-To: <199811231344.FAA01136@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:42 PM 11/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >One of my (high school) students last week asked me what are the five >biggest threats to beekeeping today. I said I would ask the list. >What would YOU say? Governments Governments Governments Governments Governments I have left off the names of the different government agency's as each beekeeper will rank them different. They could be anything from the tax assessor that values your bees that cost you $20. at $200. each hive, or the Park Service that believes your hives located on public lands for 30 years are suddenly an unreasonable danger to the public. Or maybe the local Bee Inspector that is going into the bee business on your family locations of 50 years because he can supply rodent or weed killer to the land owner at no cost. Some Professor at the University who is looking for grant money and hyping some problem in the bees you don't have or just a fellow beekeeper who adds to his numbers with your equipment. And lets not forget the bees worst enemy, we are it. ttul, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com Left Coast of the Republic (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:48:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/98 9:53:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, LloydSpear@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: > "five > biggest threats to beekeeping today?" > Media perception of AHB Nimbyism Honey treated in the marketplace as a commodity FDA USDA foot dragging Globalisation of bee parasites and disease ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:43:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Special hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Beefriends The first half of the topic you have already seen. Unfortunately, there were some my mistakes especially in number of total frames. With kind permission of Mr. Aaron Morris I give you completed work in one piece. A beekeeper Aloyzas Palskys kindly agreed to tell us of his experience on getting honey yield seven times higher than annual average in Lithuania! Special hive for northern areas. Mr. Aloyzas Palskys, retired civil engineer of 62, 50 years as a beekeeper, 20 bee colonies. He tried all kind of hives and left with very wide, 20 frames in line per one colony, two storied Dadant tipe , double hive construction. Annual honey average in 1994 - 96kg per colony per year. His best achievement. Annual honey average in 1998 - 70 kg/colony/year. 20colonies, in 10 hives, total 1400kg is his mostly often result. (average 15kg/colony/year for is Lithuania) The main honey yield is while Raspberry blooming. In midsummer one colony consists of 30-40 Dadant frames. (435mm x 300mm). Optimum colony 10kg. Swarming fully controlled. The construction of hive is based on these statements: A double hive for two separated colonies, each up to 40 frames. A hive must have good thermal isolation and air ventilation. Constant temperature in a hive day and night as possible. The condensed vapour in winter inside hive should not freeze. The isolation material between inner and outer walls must be always dry. Walls must be leak-proof for wind (air). Venting ability of the air volume among brood combs has to be up to 16 times per hour. Avoid wasting of timber wood and inner volume of hive. (Using shallow frames additional air spaces). Using one shape frames for free operation inside hive. Hive construction: Hive is double (for two colonies besides), total 80 frames, walls are wooden, continuous i.e. one great heavy box, brood level and upper level (supers) consist of 20 frames 300x435mm each (only two storied). Hive design allows in brood chamber level to keep an inside surface temperature plus 4C (39F) when outside air is minus 22C (-7.6F). Hive front both rear and bottom is double board of = inch wood with 40 mm (25 mm for suppers level) rock wool inside. (Wooden boards and pipes in Lithuania are still measured in inch). The outer side of inner boards are carefully wrapped by moisture proof material. The outer side of isolation. (front, rear, bottom) is wrapped by wind proof material as well as both hive sides/ends (without interstice for isolation). As a heat isolator is chosen a rock wool: Very low conductivity, doesn't absorb moisture, not eatable by insects and rodents, chemically stable. There are two main entrances for each colony. One as usual on floor level and second right under the brood frame ceiling. There are two additional entrances in right and left ends/sides. They are used for nucleus or in heat of nectar flow. Also these slits are used to lay in a sheet of thick paper before winter and to draw it back in spring, and so on. Some features of practice: Spring - till goat-willow blooming: * If a checked queen abdomen remains less than others at the time change her with spare one. * Pull off a paper floor cover with all the stuff on it. * Narrow the upper entrance to 1 cm (both main were left to winter 10 cm) * Should be left winter isolation on brood box ceiling * Arrange drinking-bowl in the warmest apiary place. * All last year pollen in combs is given for bees while first nest widening/expanse. * Every week a part of comb honey is uncapped (by beekeeper). All last year sugar honey should be fed till goat-willow nectar flow. This also stimulates egg laying. * Only drawn combs are given to nest (all seasons). After garden trees blooming: * An upper line is started with 3-6 drawn combs (the same size as in nest - 300x 435 mm). Gradually all honey in lower (nest) combs should be uncapped (by beekeeper) till raspberry blooming. Bees bring all honey up and prepare space for eggs laying. Also they aren't idle, the swarming mood doesn't appear. * After garden blooming all thin honey combs without brood are lifted to supers. Bees adulter this honey during one week. * Bee nest is checked every 10 days, except flow time. If queen rearing cells are found these combs are put to the end, besides additional entrance. Bees are separated using an excluder board. Instead of common ceiling more convenient is to use comb back separating (packing spaces) strips (on the same level as comb back). This is the way for a good reserve queen to raise. If the swarming mood remains are used other well known tricks. If nothing helps - change the queen. Raspberry blooming: * A half of the wintering isolation under the roof is taken out. The rest half is left for better temperature stability inside a hive on round o'clock. Temperature fluctuation incline bees to swarming. * In the beginning of raspberry flow the first wax foundations are put among old (dark) combs in supers level. Bees don't like dark combs to draw. Five foundations are drawn in one night. * At the end of the flow a double hive usually includes (20+20) x 2=80 combs. Common remarks: * A nest is expanded as usually in lying hives. * A bee bread (pollen) usually takes four frames in the warmest part of nest. * The brood usually exceeds to 15 frames. It means that a queen lays 3500 eggs during a day. * An easiest way to form new nucleus is nectar flow time. * If a colony is attacked by other one close for an hour the aggressor hive entrance. * More constant nest temperature - lower swarming probability. * Full hive (40 frames colony) checking: Take out 6 super combs into swarm box. Check the nest level, pull little by little super combs off (to free super level space) and go on nest checking. Leave the pulled supers in their new position and return the combs from the swarm box in free hive space (supers level opposite side as it was in beginning). * If a nest is too cool the bees block the upper entrance with their own bodies. * If a colony has only 30 combs at the end of raspberry blooming a queen is changed with young one. * Usually queens are changed every year. Some of the highest quality are left. "Old" queen wing is clipped in spring. First year queen colony usually don't swarm. More eggs in autumn. Since end of May queens are changed with ones of good stock (from local breeders). Later are used separated swarm mood nucleus. When a young queen begins eggs laying 10 drops of balm oil are shaken in both parts and a separating board is pulled out. The bees choose the better queen, usually a new one. * The Buckfast and Carnica races are used. Buckfast is better in moist summer. Carnica is better in dry summer and takes melliferous dew (plant-louse sweet excrement) as 7 to 3 compared to Buckfast for fir trees. Preparing for wintering: * A paper sheet is pushed/laid on hive floor. * Combs containing 5 kg of honey are left and 10 kg sugar is fed. Usually 8 combs are left. Sometimes in especially strong hive 11 combs are left. After the bees are fed and Varroa treatment is ended 3 combs with sugar honey are taken out and added to nucleus. Sugar (syrup) feeding reduces a number of the old bees. * The main entrances are left 10 cm each (lower and upper). Special wind boards are moved close to entrances in 1 cm distance. It helps against titmouse (birds) and snow. * Free combs are kept in beekeeper's house. The house is built on the same design principal as hive is. In autumn the house is heated, becomes dry and combs with bee bread (pollen) winter successfully. * 4 spare nucleus (queens) are enough in spring for 20 colonies (10 hives). * The nucleus are pulled close to main colony and only main lower entrance is opened. Higher one is closed. Additional (side/end) entrances are closed. * In late autumn an additional heat isolating cover is put on the ceiling and both hive's ends. Bees are wrapped up with fourfold wadded guilt usually used for children. For Dadant hives: Usually they have one entrance. For better air venting the entrance should be divided in two parts with an inserted strip. Then bees blowing out are in one side and blowing in are in the opposite side. Such way you distribute the air flow. Aloyzas Palskys Translated from Lithuanian by Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www.lei.lt 55 North, 24 East ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:33:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Hutton Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: Acarine, acarapis woodi, tracheal mites CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 437 MSGID: 240:244/116 4e8e8f6b REPLY: 240:44/0 67ecf93e PID: FDAPX/w 1.12a UnReg(486) I have read your first mail on Acarine and your summing up, looking back I see you write of 3 colonies in one apiary and that this is your second year keeping bees. I wonder if the 3 affected colonies arose from the same source, nucs, castes or the like. How many other colonies do you have? Are any others affected. Acaraine I have had in the past only in few colonies, unlike Varroa the spread is no way as effective or fast. I have treated with both Frow and Folbex, I still have some Frow in sealed phials and some Folbex as well. 3 treatments are needed in my experience with Folbex. After treating just 3 colonies some 20 years ago I have never bothered since, I just simply kill the affected bees, generally they have been stray swarms from dark feral bees which I tend to requeen, I might remove the queen first to use elswhere. This is the same treatment for EFB and AFB. Varroa however needs for the time being to be treated and controlled. When you have been keeping bees a little longer, visit the UK in May and attend the microscopy weekend run by Dr. John Cowan at Flatford Mill, you will then be able to dissect your bees, check the pollen sources and so on. Good luck in choosing a remedy for Acarine. peter,hutton@btinternet.com --- * Origin: Kent Beekeeper Beenet Point (240:244/116) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:37:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: david yates Subject: Tracheal mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Folks - Thanks to all who have answered my various questions in the past. I now have another. I work in a medical laboratory and spend a lot of time using a microscope. Can anyone describe to me, or point me to a URL perhaps, that explains how to dissect a bee and look for trachael mites? Thanks for your help. Dave Yates Tennessee 35.94N 86.98W ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:42:27 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: NZ Field Day... The Canterbury branch of the National Beekeepers' Assn of New Zealand held a field day last Saturday. I've posted notes and photographs provided by Peter Bray of Airborne Honey, who is also a member of this list. Can't come to NZ? A 'virtual field day' is the next best thing! http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/fd.htm (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:03:28 -0800 Reply-To: pyramid@epix.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pyramid Subject: Re: bee sting desensitization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas W Hoyt wrote: > > Is there a difference between a bee sting "allergy" and the fact that > when I get stung the spot gets red, itches, swells a bit, etc? I'm a > novice - 5 years and a few hives. I get stung 3- 4 times a year. > > Best guess, should I go to an alergist/ or consider a desensitization > program? > If I were to go through the "desensitization" would I not be bothered at > all by the occasional sting (as if it were just a splinter)? > > Pastor Thomas W. Hoyt > Our Redeemer Lutheran Church > Forsyth, IL > Almost Heaven-C.I.D. To: Thomas Hoyt Your reaction seems perfectly normal to me. I get 50-60 stings per season and, depending where I am stung, still get a temporary welt and itchiness. If stung several times at once, I take a Benadryl tablet. It doesn't seem like much of a problem for me and certainly not worth any medical treatment. I don't think you get stung enough. I'm sure your girls will accommodate you. Burns ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:50:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Swarmin with AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Western Pulp Products of Corvallis, OR manufactures them, but you may have to buy a load of them. Robert E Butcher wrote: > Hello, > I would like to know if anybody knew of a place where I could > get the Box Style swarm Traps? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:05:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Tracheal mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david yates wrote: > Can anyone describe to me, or point me to a URL perhaps, > that explains how to dissect a bee and look for trachael mites? > No, but Florida (maybe FL Dept. of Agr.) put out a hekkava good video that I used when learning to find them under the 'scope, and it helped later when training others - can't give you a reference, but there should at least one Gator or whatever on this list. -- John ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Biological Lab. Technician "Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier" Carl Hayden Bee Research Center 2000 E. Allen Road Tucson, Arizona 85719 Office: 520-670-6380, ext.110 Fax: 520-670-6493 Geog. location: 32.27495 N 110.9402 W Lab webpages: http://198.22.133.109/ http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/index.html http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/jephotos.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:05:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: honeybee classification Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ted Fischer wrote: Note that honeybee is one word. ************ Much confusion exists on that point. Often, the British and most standard dictionaries use honeybee as one word. However, entomologists follow a standard procedure for common names of insects. If an insect is a real bee, they use the adjective describing that bee as a separate word (e.g., honey bee, bumble bee, leafcutting bee, etc.). By contrast, insects NOT of the group carry adjectives as part of the word for the common name of that insect. For example, dragonflies, butterflies, etc. are NOT flies. By such convention, entomologists avoid much confusion. The dictionaries, on the other hand, follow the entomology tradition only about half the time, causing much confusion for editors of scientific papers and books. All too often, in the submission and editing process, I have had to insist that honey bee be spelled as two words for my papers and books. More and more the entomology tradition prevails. Most of the more than two dozen bee books on my shelf have honey bee spelled as two words. That includes THE HIVE AND THE HONEY BEE, ANATOMY OF THE HONEY BEE, and ABC AND XYZ OF BEE CULTURE. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ********** * * "The [scientist] within the [thought] collective is never, or hardly ever, * * conscious of the prevailing thought style, which almost always exerts an * * absolutely compulsive force upon his thinking and with which it is not * * possible to be at variance." * * Ludwik Fleck (1935; 1979) * * **************************************************************************** ********** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:41:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: USDA "kill a beekeeper" Program Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Check out the BeeNews page for up to date information on the USDA's NEW Honey Loan Program. http://beenet.com/bnews.htm You will also find the latest HONEY MARKET NEWS and Bee Reports and its FREE. How about 42 1/2 cents for your honey? Well at least one producer was satisfied with that price of course it was dark Mint honey that would gag a maggot and more then likely plug up a bee so tight no amount of MO would relieve it. Please keep in mind that the Market Reports are only history of the market in October and todays cash market may be different. ttul, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:31:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dalby Subject: Re: Tracheal mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there Dave, You ask about dissection of a honeybee. Anatomy and Dissection of the honeybee by Dade is the best book on this subject and gives all the diagrams you need published by the International Bee Research Association, my copy is a 1985 reprint alternatively, try Honey Bee Pests Predators and Diseases edited by Morse, published by Cornell University Press, my copy 1978 but I think recently re-issued. Sorry I do not know of a URL with this info on. Barbara and Peter Dalby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:56:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Latitude and Longitude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lewis wrote: > Somewhere in the south pacific. I gotta know - are there beekeepers (and honey bees) on the islands in the S. Pacific ???? - John ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Biological Lab. Technician "Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier" Carl Hayden Bee Research Center 2000 E. Allen Road Tucson, Arizona 85719 Office: 520-670-6380, ext.110 Fax: 520-670-6493 Geog. location: 32.27495 N 110.9402 W Lab webpages: http://198.22.133.109/ http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/index.html http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/jephotos.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:59:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Swarmin with AHB -correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "(Thomas) (Cornick)" wrote: > In a message dated 11/22/98 6:31:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobbees@JUNO.COM > writes: > > > Hello, > > I would like to know if anybody knew of a place where I could > > get the Box Style swarm Traps? SORRY - I posted the manufacturer of the "peat-pot" Schmidt-type traps earlier. - John Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: Latitude and Longitude In-Reply-To: <199811231352.IAA28267@mailhub1.interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks John Lewis and all others in favour of incuding Lat & Long in their posts. Here in Canada we spend less time with our bees, this time of year, but now have time to catch up on our mail and dream of exotic places such as Suva Island in Fiji. I often run to the atlas to find a place which I'm not familiar. My wife and I are planning a trip to the South Pacific in a year or so, and now have another reason to include Fiji; bees and a new found friend. The temperature tonight is slightly above freezing but was up to 13C this afternoon. I have just returned from my beeyard where I was checking the feeders on two hives that are underweight and still active. Hello Tom Barrett, in Dublin Eire. Hope we can talk bees over another pint soon. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario, Canada 44N, 80W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:53:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: bee sting desensitization In-Reply-To: <199811230307.WAA19766@mailhub1.interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My advice to Pastor Hoyt: More stings in your beeyard will accomplish your goal. I have 9 hives of mild mannered (normally) bees. Receiving 3 or 4 stings per visit to my beeyard is not uncommon. I don't wear gloves but always wear a veil. I only use smoke if the bees are testy, but always have the smoker going. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario, Canada 44N, 80W ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:25:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiservices Subject: Re: classification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi John and all, Look at: http://www.beekeeping.com =3D> Tools for beginners & pros =3D> Taxonomy gilles.ratia@apiservices.com http://www.apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:36:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Goodman Subject: PUEDE AYUDAME? Comments: To: APINET-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hola, Soy John Goodman, coordinador internacional de APINET, cuyo objetive principal es facilitar los contactos entre apicultores de todo el mundo. Le agradeceria si pudieran facilitarme algun consejo de como entrar en contacto con apicultores espanoles por correo normal o por correo electronico. Expresandole mi gratitud, se despide atentamente, John Goodman JOHN GOODMAN APINET ( http://www.inter.nl.net/hcc/beenet ) International Multilingual Extension Network for apiculture sponsored by CSL & EUROPEA promotes productive and healthy beekeeping and links extension workers and others helping to advise, educate or train beekeepers worldwide. CSL NBU ( http://www.csl.gov.uk ) The National Bee Unit is part of a UK research agency, the Central Science Laboratory, which covers bee disease control and research and provides an extension service for beekeepers. EUROPEA ( http://www.europea.org ) European Agricultural Education Association an EU based organisation serving the agricultural education & training sector enabling students, teachers and extension workers to collaborate. Regional Bee Inspector, NE England CSL National Bee Unit, UK Tel/Message:+44 (0)1833 690561 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:51:21 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Chile MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit amybody on the list from Chile??SouthAmerica?? -- ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ----------------51.55 N, 4.28 E---------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:56:10 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Horacio Villa Subject: Re: Chile MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan, You can e-mail to apinet@inta.gov.ar in Argentina. The web page I know from Chile is at http://www.colmenaressuizos.co.cl. Horacio Villa Buenos Aires - Argentina ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:07:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Clip art needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by k4vb@HIWAAY.NET to the BEE-L list at CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove HTML formatting. ------------------ Original message (ID=506503) (59 lines) -------------------- From: "Bobby R Fanning" To: Subject: Clip art needed. Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:41:13 -0600 Can anyone tell me where I can find clip art of a cotton flower and as = open cotton bowl. Needed for a honey label. Bob Fanning Huntsville, Al. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:35:12 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: Latitude and Longitude > I gotta know - are there beekeepers (and honey bees) on the islands in the S. > Pacific ???? > - John Well, at least on some of them! Many islands have a population of honey bees established from back when they were first European colonised. Tonga, an island group with which I am familiar, has/had a population of small dark Germanic bees from that source. Some of the islands are establishing/reestablishing beekeeping as a small scale industry. Papua New Guinea, the Solomans, Nuie, the Gilberts all pretty much come to mind. Then there are the larger islands - Australia and New Zealand, which both have thriving beekeeping industries! (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:03:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: "killer" bees on Pacific Island? In-Reply-To: <199811241939.LAA14379@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:35 PM 11/25/98 +1300, you wrote: >> I gotta know - are there beekeepers (and honey bees) on the islands in the S. >> Pacific ???? >> - John Don't know the south from west but this Island is NO Virgin when it comes to bees. 11.21 - Though no one has yet been stung by an Africanized bee on St. Croix, Department of Agriculture officials are warning residents to stay away from colonies of the excitable insects. The aggressive bees, sometimes called ``killer bees,'' have been present on the island since 1994, but have spread further afield in search of food since Hurricane Georges blew away fruit blossoms and flowering plants. ``We have had a number of reports from concerned citizens and the department has assisted some individuals to remove colonies from their premises,'' said Errol Chichester, a department of agriculture extension officer. ``Bee activity increases at this time of year,'' said Agriculture Commissioner Dr. Arthur Petersen. For more of this kind of beekeeing news check out the "Killer Bee & Worm Journal" at http://beenet.com/bnews.htm (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:20:32 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: honeybee classification In-Reply-To: <98Nov23.035507hwt.49048(10)@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Ted Fischer wrote: > John Wolford wrote: > > > I am doing a project on Honey bees, and I really need to know the complete > > classification of them. ( Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, > > Species. ) Any information would be of use. > > Kingdom: Animal > Phylum: Arthropoda > Class: Insecta > Order: Hymenoptera > Family: Apidae > Genus: Apis > Species: mellifera Since the original post requested a classification of "honey bees," and in the interest of providing a complete list, it should be pointed out that the above classification concerns only one species, the western hive bee. There are at least five other living species of honey bee, viz. Apis andreniformis, A. cerana (the eastern hive bee), A. dorsata, A. florea, and A. koschevnikovi. A number of extinct species also are known. ************************************************************************* Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814, U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 FAX: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) "Bugs are not going to inherit the earth. They own it now. So we might as well make peace with the landlord."--T. Eisner (1989) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:17:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Lat/Long to UTM conversion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Many maps and GPS (global positioning systems) now use UTM's rather than Lat/Long. If you have your coordinates from one system and want to convert them, I found a GIS (geographical information service) company that has a JAVA applet that can make the conversion: http://internetgis.com/utm/calc.html I can't warrant the accuracy, but I assume that it would be in the best interest of the GIS firm to get it right. Cheers Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:10:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gordon N. Stowe" Subject: Apistan use Does anyone know whether Apistan treatment, in a 2 story hive, would be just as effective if the strips were placed in the 2nd story hive body instead of the lower hive body? What about in the entrance? The reason for asking is that for all practical purposes, the upper and lower hive bodies, over the summer, are effectively "welded" together, and separation is an awful chore up with which I would rather not put. Does anyone know a simple way to separate these structures easily. Thank, Gordon ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:39:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Bogansky Subject: 5 Problems/Yard Rent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I was following the strings on yard rent and then on the five biggest problems for beekeepers and I started to think (dangerous). IMHO the biggest problem to beekeepers and beekeeping in general are beekeepers themselves. I guess this can be true for any hobby/occupation/industry. When we do root cause of most of the problems we have you can usually bring it down to one of the following: The Uneducated Beekeeper. Beehavers (as George fondly refers to them) who will do something foolish because they just don't know any better. In most cases they do most harm to their own operation, but they can also adversely affect other beekeepers in the area. The Lazy Beekeeper. You know the one who realizes they have a problem, but just never get around to correcting it. These are the guys who are glad to supply your bees with some fresh honey loaded with foulbrood spores because they didn't have time to treat, or destroy, the colonies. The Cheap Beekeeper. This is the one who will reuse Apistan strips, take too much honey from the colony, never use the proper dosage when medicating, use old, possibly dirty, containers for their honey storage. Did you ever see someone storing honey in a Spackle bucket? These guys have the potential to really hurt the entire industry. Note: They should not be confused with the frugal beekeeper who are probably most of us just trying to save a little here and there. The Bad Beekeeper. This is the guy who only cares about one thing: themselves. These are the people who steal hives, run illegal operations and anything else to give them the edge. They sell poor queens, sick or mite infested bees, contaminated/adulterated honey, etc. They always provide the media with material for news stories that make beekeepers look bad. Hopefully we don't have too many of these, but I always tend to blame our biggest problems on them. The Indebted Beekeeper. Most beekeepers fall into this category, they feel they owe everybody some type of service just because they can do it. This is the beekeeper who shows up to sell very good, local, honey and then lowers their price to compete with someone selling generic/imported/cheap honey that they had nothing to do with producing. This person will work all day to remove bees from a building and then charge a small sum if anything at all. They will drive 30 miles (50 km), climb 20 ft (9 m) up in the air to retrieve a swarm while the homeowner watches from a distance and keeps asking if they are "killer bees". They give the homeowner a jar of honey take, nothing in compensation, other than the bees, then in a discussion learn that the homeowner gladly paid an extermination company $100 to remove a wasp nest the previous summer. Sometimes after driving the same distance they find out the are honeybees are wasps, or are greeted by other beekeepers whom the homeowner has also called because he wasn't sure who would come. These beekeepers do all this because they love bees and beekeeping and are usually embarrassed to expect anything for the work they do. He/she feels they have a responsibility. I have been there and done the above. Now, I am somewhat embarrassed about it. If you do a good job you should be able to feel good about it. I now say that the honey we produce is the best there is. You should be saying that about your honey too! There is my list! One quick comment on yard rental. I refuse to negotiate to place my bees on someone land. I have a number of out yards. I always give the land owner a "gift" of honey each year. The amount usually depends on the yield for the year, but I decide how much. The minute the landowner thinks I "owe" him honey, the bees are gone. The landowner is getting the benefit of pollination. I don't ask for 10 % of the pumpkin yield increase due to the bees. Each year I have to turn away people who want bees on their property and are even willing to pay for them. Unless there is something very special about the site I wouldn't pay to put bees there. I understand I only have between 40 and 50 colonies, and a large operation would view this different, but for the small operator there are enough landowners out there who know the value of bees. You shouldn't pay for the use of their land. Just for the record, I usually give the land owner between 5 and 10 lb, and all sites have 10 colonies or less. I do give them the honey that was produced on their land. They are always excited about that. There really are people out there who value us for what we and our bees do. For those celebrating, have a great Thanksgiving! Everyone else, have a great day! Ron Bogansky Milk & Honey Farm Kutztown, PA USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:29:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Victoria McDonough Subject: Re: 5 Problems/Yard Rent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/98 11:06:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, BOGANSRJ@APCI.COM writes: << This is the beekeeper who shows up to sell very good, local, honey and then lowers their price to compete with someone selling generic/imported/cheap honey that they had nothing to do with producing. >> Ron, I couldn't agree with you more! We produce (or rather our girls) produce a premium product and it should carry a premium price! I have had this discussion with members of our club and have had people look at me like I was nuts. Why compete with the supermarket? Is a Lincoln more money than an Escort? Are cashews more expensive than peanuts? Does 12 year old, single malt Scotch cost a bit more than Scotty's? YES! So should our honey. Through a group effort we can class locally produced honey in it's own category and set and receive a premium price for it! Beekeepers' have to believe we do have a superior product. Have a Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate. Vickie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:14:14 -0800 Reply-To: robert@jobhaus.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert MacKimmie Subject: Re: 5 Problems/Yard Rent Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Vickie McDonough continued the discussion by saying: >>> "Through a group effort we can class locally produced honey in it's own category and set and receive a premium price for it!" In marketing, perceived value is everything. If the customers understand how special something is and can feel good about appreciating that fact, they will be willing to pay an appropriate amount. We are very lucky in California's Bay Area for two reasons, 1.) someone said, "all you people do out here is talk about food" -and- 2.) the region has very diverse microclimates which produce endless little pockets of bloom sets, all different tasting. With a growing sophisticated honey awareness gained by continual tastings at the local Farmer's Market, customers now show up saying, "what new honeys do you have today" or "what haven't I tasted recently". When someone claims to have tasted everything or claim that all honeys taste the same, a little spoon of pumpkin blossom honey curls their eyebrows and perks them up mighty quick. Then I provide a sequence of unique honeys that illuminate how different one honey is from another. At about the fifth honey, the customer mentions that tasting honeys is like tasting wines. Their lightbulb is on and they decide whether they want a really special honey or just a pretty special honey. Or a general use honey with a smaller jar of the very special honey. As we all know, it is alot of work to keep little batches of special honey seperated, but it has really paid off by having lots of unique honeys for customers to choose from. Just so you know that I'm not completely blowing smoke, the most special honey, which comes from a prestigious neighborhood in SF, sells for $9 per 8 oz. hex jar. With only 100 pounds, it is easy to cite the rare nature of it and with only a hive or two in many of the yards, I can explain that there is greater time invested per hive's return. Regardless, that one honey is returning $18 per pound, while the majority of the other honeys return $5 per pound. These honeys can't compete on low price. Why do some honeys cost more? They are more special. We are very lucky to have the amazing microclimates and have cultivated the audience who appreciates how special they are. Regards, r@citybees.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:08:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Threats to bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The biggest threat to bees today comes from Humans or to be more specific BEEKEEPERS especially those driven by greed Harry Goudie, Lochluichart, Scotland. Knitwear Page: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/ -----Original Message----- From: Bill Mares To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: 23 November 1998 13:52 Subject: Threats to bees? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Apistan use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon wrote: >Does anyone know whether Apistan treatment, in a 2 story hive, would be >just as effective if the strips were placed in the 2nd story hive body >instead of the lower hive body? ************************* I try to put the strips in the hive body which has the queen in it (where the broodnest is) because this (I guess) is where the maximum number of bees come into contact with the strips. ******************************** >The reason for asking is that for all practical purposes, the upper and >lower hive bodies, over the summer, are effectively "welded" together, >and separation is an awful chore up with which I would rather not put. >Does anyone know a simple way to separate these structures easily. ************************* No. (Don't I wish!) I slide a hive tool between and almost parallel to the side of the hive body )where the wood is thicker than on the ends.) After I hit the heel of the hive tool with the heel of my hand to drive it in, I lift it mightily and separate the two hive bodies enough to puff in some smoke. I may use the hive tool (turned on its edge) to hold the hive bodies separated while I puff the smoke in. Then I wiggle the hive tool along the back end of the hive body and lever down the frames that have been glued to their neighbors above. Then I twist and lift on the back end to separate the two hive bodies. (That sure sounds easy when I type it!) Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:32:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Apistan use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Apistan use You really ought to split the two hive bodies to determine where the brood chamber is, in order to place the strips on either side of it (see apistan directions). If the chamber is predominantly on the top, but two strips there, if on the bottom...and so on. Some have written that they actually use four strips on colonies kept in two hive bodies, or conceivably if the brood chamber is centered between the two. The need to split the two is also important for those beekeepers who rotate the boxes in the Spring to keep the queen and the brood chamber down low (the theory being it makes her less likely to move up into the honey supers in the later part of the spring. /C.Crowell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:31:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Stuck together Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/98 6:10:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, sterrett@VOICENET.COM writes: > lower hive bodies, over the summer, are effectively "welded" together, > >and separation is an awful chore up with which I would rather not put. > >Does anyone know a simple way to separate these structures easily. > ************************* Once you get them apart smear a little vaseline on the edge of the hive body and they will be easier to pry open next time. If you are finding a lot of burr comb between the hive bodies then you need to either shim them or trim them with a plane to keep bee space proper. When prying them apart bring a couple pieces of scrap wood with you and as you pry them apart slip the scrap in the space and pry again a few inches apart. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:29:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: usda 'KILL A BEEKEEPER' PROGRAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please explain to somebody not from the USA what the USDA honey loan program is. Is it in effect a Government subsidy to US beekeepers? You already have it cushy, getting sugar at World prices instead of paying inflated European Community prices as we have to. Perhaps we should complain of unfair competition. How much honey does the US import from Europe? I am inclined to agree with Andy's assessment of the 5 main problems with beekeeping. The trouble with governments is that they invariably interfere in the way I don't want them to and don't interfere in the way I do want them to. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:43:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Apistan Use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gordon N Stowe writes regarding separating hive bodies. I have found that smearing vaseline on the touching surfaces, greatly assists in separating the parts of a hive. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:17:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: usda 'KILL A BEEKEEPER' PROGRAM In-Reply-To: <199811261001.CAA29438@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:29 PM 11/25/98 -0500, you wrote: Hi Christopher, and Bee Friends, >Please explain to somebody not from the USA what the USDA honey loan program >is. Is it in effect a Government subsidy to US beekeepers? Not to worry it is NOT a subsidy, what it is, a for one year Honey Loan Program on the 1998 crop, the producer pays interest and costs. The loan is for 9 months and the honey can not be forfeited. If the producer defaults on the loan it will be sold and any balance owed the government must be paid out of pocket. The loan is based on $0.5287 per pound US$ and the interest is 5.875%. I believe that maximum amount of any one person can borrow to be $100,000.00 but don't quote me on that as it could be 2x that. >You already have it cushy, getting sugar at World prices instead of paying inflated European >Community prices as we have to. Beekeepers do NOT buy sugar at world price which is raw sugar anyway and some times higher then domestic contract. World sugar is un contracted or unsold sugar and does not always reflect the domestic or real price. Most beekeepers pay about $25.00+ per hundred pounds the same as anyone in the US. Large users get better prices and many do not use "sugar" but HF Corn syrup or a blend depending on the costs at the time of purchase. There are no productions restrictions on corn syrup as they were wise enough to not call their products "sugar" even if they are the same or at least used the same and have replaced a large part of the domestic industrial market putting many sugar growers and refiners out of business for ever. >Perhaps we should complain of unfair competition. If you do you better check your own Honey Tariffs and other restrictions. Some governments which I will not name. treat all imported honey as if it contained Mad Cow inoculate and use health laws in place of taxes to keep honey from competition with their own brand of honey. Some of these countries even are honey export partners of the US and Europe but "free trade" is NOT the same as "fair trade". They feel free to trade with us when the price is right and see it as fair to product their own producers by hook or crook at all times. Other countries allow their citizens to subvert the rule of law outside their country such as importing millions of pounds of honey they have no use for into one country and reshipping it to another who have laws preventing the honey from the first country from being imported. >How much honey does the US import from Europe? Not much honey in bulk today is imported from Europe as few in Europe would want to sell it at today's prices here in the US. If you know of anyone who is willing to pay the freight and thinks .50- .60 cents per pound is a good deal have them see a head doctor as they may need a brain transplant. The US does import some honey from Europe mostly in consumer containers and its sold in speciality or high scale markets in the bigger cities. You know like $5.00- $10.00 per pound for good English Heather or Spanish Orange that so many beekeepers get rich on in their own home land, right. >The trouble with governments is that they invariably interfere in >the way I don't want them to and don't interfere in the way I do want them to. If I was a US beekeeper I would not count on much if any government help unless we want to pay more taxes ourselves as beekeepers to fiance it, and most beekeepers feel like the rest of us in the Republic and that is we are working to much now to pay our taxes which by some measurements are at 50% of our net now. ttul, the OLd Drone For up to date Information on Government Pork to beekeepers http://beenet.com/bnews.htm Los Banos, Left Coast (I ain't got no GPS yet) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:00:33 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: 5 Threats to african bees Hi All Enjoyed reading the lists of threats to bees around the world. (so far nothing from Malaysia - Choon??) Here is my list for the eastern cape province, South Africa (middle of the tip of africa) 1) Traditional honey gatherers - view a beehive as an unownable thing - hence very difficult to presuade not to remove the hive/ smash it up with a rock and burn it to get the honey. 2) Cheap 'bee experts' - who provide bad advice and use poisons to kill beehives. Multiplies bee pathogens and damages urban resevoirs of honeybees that repopulate the countryside after droughts. 3) Lawnmowers and racist bees. Bees don't like lawnmowers, and they don't like dark people - if they did not have these little quirks, 90% of bad bee problems would not happen. 4) Government - in Africa the G word is always a problem somehow or other. 5) Hollywood - somehow or other this places' movie industry has managed to transplant Apiphobia to South Africa. Pity. Others: Honey badgers?? Fork tailed drongas etc. Just must say - Ron - I aggree fully with you about the bee removals. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:49:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Patrick VIENNE Subject: Looking for Caucasian Queens Comments: To: apither@beenet.pp.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, WHO CAN HELP ME ??? I'm a french beekeeping specialist and i'm looking for contacts about apiculture institutes, bee associations in rumania turkey bulgaria ..georgia ..to find Caucasian queens or banat or anatolia queens.I would like to establish contacts. If someone vae any information, please, contact us. Thanks a lot for your help Best Regards P VIENNE Station Director www.apiservices.com/apiselec/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:52:18 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: usda 'KILL A BEEKEEPER' PROGRAM > From: Andy Nachbaur > Some governments which I will not name. treat all imported honey as if it > contained Mad Cow inoculate and use health laws in place of taxes to keep > honey from competition with their own brand of honey. Some of these > countries even are honey export partners of the US and Europe but "free > trade" is NOT the same as "fair trade". They feel free to trade with us > when the price is right and see it as fair to product their own producers > by hook or crook at all times. The US likes to play both sides of this particular fence. It applies restrictions to protect the bee health of the US when it chooses, but beekeepers like Andy would not have other countries attempt to do the same. No one has ever said that "free trade" and "fair trade" mean the same as "totally unrestricted" trade. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:03:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In discussing separation of hive bodies, it was said "Then I wiggle the hive tool along the back end of the hive body and lever down the frames that have been glued to their neighbors above." I have always felt that when the frames are glued together, that means the bee space is not correct. Personally, I have only had this happen when I have mixed bodies from two different manufacturers. I now check bee space before I put bodies together and trim off a sliver on a table saw, or add a strip of wood, when necessary. Lloyd Email LloydSpear@msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds(tm), the finest in comb honey production. http://www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 07:41:41 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Sepaerating Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LLoys Spear said Date: 26 November 1998 16:03 I now check bee space >before I put bodies together and trim off a sliver on a table saw, or add a >strip of wood, when necessary. > I have found that with unseasoned wood it can be necessary to check the bee space after a period in use ( about 6 months) to check for shrinkage and if necessary then to add the slip. Ruary Rudd rrudd@tinet.ie Waterville, Co Kerry Ireland (Where the trans Atlantic Cables landed) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Free or fair trade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick says..."The US likes to play both sides of this particular fence. It applies restrictions to protect the bee health of the US when it chooses,......" I do not really have an opinion on Nick's general point, which I read to be as "the US, as other countries, like to play with the words "free trade" and "fair trade". I suspect there is a kernel of truth here, but do not really know enough to have an opinion. I do know that we allow free trade in honey, and our beekeepers suffer a great deal as a result. As far as importing bees is concerned, and I think that is Nick's focus at the moment, my understanding is many and perhaps most US beekeepers are in favor of lifting all restrictions...whether that is wise or not I do not know. I do know that there are never enough packages and what there are are very expensive. If the Canadian border re-opens (I do not know where that stands, but I understand it will re-open soon) the package bee situation could really become critical! In the meantime, there is some view that the newest imported pest, the small hive beetle, might be a very very serious problem and that there is at least one more mite out there that is at least as bad as Varroa. My information on the small hive beetle comes from a presentation by Charles Wilson of the USDA at a joint Canadian and American meeting held last weekend. The information presented is that there might be something going on that prevents it from being a serious pest in South Africa, and that "something" might not be present here. Further, there is some indication that the beetle can survive in climates that receive some degree of frost, which would significantly expand its potential in the US. Finally, if I remember correctly New Zealand does not allow importation of bees. Are those in glass houses throwing stones? Lloyd Email LloydSpear@msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds(tm), the finest in comb honey production. http://www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:14:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Apistan use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gordon Stowe has problems because the two brood boxes are effectively welded together during the summer months. Where one comb is above and in line with another the bees very sensibly join them together. The solution is to have the upper box at right angles to the lower (or vice versa). The bees then respect the bee space between the combs in the two boxes and do not join them with brace or burr comb. Of course, there are eccentric people who choose to use oblong rather than square boxes. They can't do this and have only themselves to blame. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:26:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: usda 'KILL A BEEKEEPER' PROGRAM In-Reply-To: <199811262138.NAA11215@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:52 PM 11/27/98 +1300, you wrote: >"KILL A BEEKEEPER PROGRAMS" >The US likes to play both sides of this particular fence. It applies >restrictions to protect the bee health of the US when it chooses, but >beekeepers like Andy would not have other countries attempt to do the >same. No one has ever said that "free trade" and "fair trade" mean >the same as "totally unrestricted" trade. Hi Nick, and Interested Beekeepers, Not true, I Bee Emperor Andy, if elected, would lift all government restrictions on honeybee queen bees including genetic material and allow beekeepers to search out the best new stock for their own area.. Today in the US we are doing that in a small inefficient way but we do not get to pick our own stock and those who do chose the stock are not part of production agriculture but regulators and bee scientists and have yet to find one worthwhile new stock of bees. BTW.. They are not looking in NZ or the Pacific Rim for new stock we can get that from Canada now. As for the landing rights at Hawaii, this was an economic thing, NZ was trying to cheapen the cost of their bees and without regards to the risk to their main competitor for queens in Canada, Hawaii, a pacific island without main land or NZ bee health problems, and other alternatives were available and in use. Todays US beekeepers are not good politicians and were sold out on this issue by their own government bureaucrats. The only other restriction was on China for selling honey a values less then what it would bring in China. A temporary import quota was established as a penalty which was subverted by Canadian interests who imported millions of pounds of Chinese honey and transhipped it to the US as Canadian honey or a blend of Canadian honey. The case against China cost US beekeepers hundreds of thousands in cash money for trade lawyers and it was made into a wasted effort by a few in Canada and their government and a jaundice US government regulatory system. If it were not for our CIA we would know nothing about the fate of those at least in the Chinese honey export business in Canada and they are reported to be out of business today but then there is no profit in importing honey into Canada to export it to the US today also. If this had not happened I believe the US and Canada in honey price today would be 25% higher then it is which is a weak or declining market or NO market at all, so Canadian and other export honey producers are paying a price to have let this deception to go on. As far as I know NO new US bee laws pertaining to the importation of bees have been made since the original ones in the early part of the century and if anything they have been relaxed by regulation allowing new importations as above. I do know the difference between "free" and "fair" trade but can not say what part of all the above which all have more to do with "restricted" trade is FAIR...to any beekeepers the world around. IMHO ttul, Andy- http://beenet.com Left Coast of the Republic of America (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bee Space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan asks "What space do you try for between the top of 1 frame and the bottom of the other one?" Dan This space must be as close as possible to 3/8th of an inch (.95 cm). This 3/8th spacing is referred to as "bee space". At 1/2" bees will build burr comb and at 1/4" bees will fill the space with propolis. (I forget just how well 7/16th or 5/16th will work.) To complicate matters, some US manufacturers place the bee space on the top of the super, others on the bottom, and at least one even "splits the difference" so that there is 3/16th on the top and another 3/16th on the bottom! Quite a problem is created when a super made with the bee space on the bottom is put on top of a super with the bee space on the top. This generates a space of 3/4", sure to be completely filled with burr comb, causing a grand mess when the boxes are split. If those same two supers were reversed, the bees would glue them together so tight that after a season the beekeeper would need a crowbar to split them! So when you hear the US has standardized on Langsforth equipment...hear that as "almost standardized". One thing we all do agree on is that Langsforth's discovery of bee space and its significance is as valid today as it was in the 18th century. Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:47:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "John M. Thorp" Subject: Re: usda 'KILL A BEEKEEPER' PROGRAM As we all well know their's no government like no government. Its not going to get any better,kind of like a noose being slipped over our necks while we are watching and not being able to do a thing cause most every one is standing idly by. Our "public servants" commonly referred to as elected officials are a sad lot. I can't imagine what it would be like if they really were looking out for us,and I mean every one of us, as a whole. The sad part about it is,and I repeat, it is not going to get any better. John in Homestead- -Jesus Christ is the only answer- -"Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed." - Prov. 12:19 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:16:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk In-Reply-To: <199811262141.OAA17200@selway.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:03 AM 11/26/1998 -0500, you wrote: Bridging between the frames in two boxes is not always because of bee space. All of our equipment uses the same boxes and until recently the same frames. From our observations, bees build more burr comb when they become space limited - such as during a heavy flow. They also build more of it on plastic frames - my biggest objection to plastic. Fred Rossman warned me that the bees tended to glue down covers over plastic - I found that they also glue together the boxes more often than when on wooden frames. Cheers Jerry >>lever down the frames that have been glued to their neighbors above." > >I have always felt that when the frames are glued together, that means the >bee space is not correct. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Correction Bill Wilson, not Charles Wilson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, George. Bill Wilson is the correct name. I apologize. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: George Steffensen [mailto:george@cdsnet.net] Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 12:07 PM To: LloydSpear@msn.com Subject: Name Lloyd In you communication to bee-l, do not you mean Bill Wilson and not Charles Wilson. Bill gave an excellent talk at the Oregon State Beekeepers meeting. George Steffensen george@cdsnet.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:57:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: usda kill a beekeeper program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Andy, I wish I could borrow money at 5.875%. I am paying a lot more than that on my house which is nearly paid for. What is the difference between a soft loan and a subsidy? When I buy sugar, which is not very often, I pay the equivalent of 30 us dollars per 100 pounds. By the way are your pounds the same as ours - 16 ounces or 454 grammes? We had a little translation problem the other day because your gallons are smaller. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:46:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: usda kill a beekeeper program Comments: To: CSlade777@AOL.COM In-Reply-To: <199811280039.QAA06226@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:57 PM 11/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >I wish I could borrow money at 5.875%. I am paying a lot more than that on my >house which is nearly paid for. What is the difference between a soft loan >and a subsidy? Hi Chris, A soft loan would be lower then "prime". This interest rate is based on prime plus, plus costs. A beekeeper would have to get about 10% above the loan rate 9 months from now. That may sound reasonable but any large amount of honey under loan has in the past driven down the price of honey not increased it. In the OLD Honey Support Program that we had for about 50 years the interest was forgiven when you redeemed the loan. If you defaulted the government took the honey and paid to have it packed and gave it away "free" to school lunch programs and to the low income and old people. And some beekeepers did qualify for the five pounds per month free honey, but the government honey was so poor you could only use it to cook with or make beer. I never did figure what they did to the good honey but at least two honey packers were found guilty of replacing it with their own poor honey. >When I buy sugar, which is not very often, I pay the equivalent of 30 us >dollars per 100 pounds. By the way are your pounds the same as ours - 16 >ounces or 454 grammes? We had a little translation problem the other day >because your gallons are smaller. Yes our pounds are a pound or 16 onces, 454 grammes or what ever. Seems you are getting your sugar at about the same list price as in the US. Of course large users get the best deal they can find. In my hay day I used 20 or more tanker truck loads a year as I blended it with drugs and filled other beekeepers feed cans. At the time we had a choice of sugar companys, cane, beet, and corn, now many are gone because corn products have held the price down. At the time I could put out one gallon of sugar for about $.75 cents including the cost drugs and a new can. The cans cost more then that now. BTW: Because of the low interest rates here I can refinance my old 9.50% home loan at 5.50% a nice savings in interest. The down side is the cost to do so eats up most of the savings because of state regulations, title search and the like. ttul, the OLd Drone BeeBooks for Christmas http://beenet.com/bnews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:57:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: HONEY IMPORTS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I went to the National Honey Show in London today (Madeleine Pym, where were you?). I attended a lecture (including international honey tasting) by a honey importer and packer who takes honey from all parts of the world. He says the only country which has not tried to sell him adulterated honey is New Zealand. Nick Wallingford, stand tall. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:49:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Adams Subject: Re: usda kill a beekeeper program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I don't see it as a comparison to a house loan. When one has 100 or 150 55gallon drums of honey setting in your warehouse and the packers don't want it for months because they are getting all of the cheap imported honey they want, you pay interest on that money and then the price drops I think you could say you lost twice. It is not the problem of the loan , It's a problem of not being able to move our honey and at a fair price compared to expenses as I see it. David FLA-USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:13:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steven Albritton Subject: Re: usda kill a beekeeper program In-Reply-To: <199811280038.SAA24589@mailbox.iamerica.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I wish I could borrow money at 5.875%. I am paying a lot more than that on my >house which is nearly paid for. What is the difference between a soft loan >and a subsidy? The kicker is that they will only loan .52 per pound for 1 year. If you are small potatoes like me, it's not enough to do any good. I have about 720 pounds left in inventory. Let's see, I believe I qualify for a whopping $375. I bet I can really pay off a lot of 16% interest with that. This is sure not much of a subsidy. Steven Albritton Intermedia Communications, Sports America, Chauvin Honey Farms ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:20:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Gabon tapes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Fruehwirth writes: >There you wrote about "Gabon tapes". Can you tell me, what kind of chemical against Varroa is it? I am from Austria and we are interested in serious and good methods against varroa, also for beekeepers with more than 100 hives. >In some regions in Austria we have problems with resistance against Fluvallinat, so Apistan seems to be "out" in next years. Dear Beefriends Gabon tapes are veneer strips (wood) soaked with some sodium salt ( sounds similar to nitrate: Natrio Nitrinas in Lithuanian). It differs from Fluvallinat. We get Gabon from Check Republic. I saw an influence of Gabon to Varroa mites in my beefriend's hive. Next day the numerous dead mites were seen on the bee-entrance. After some weeks while checking bee colony on the hive floor in brood chamber nearby vertical board we saw a brown "hill" about 1 cm width, 1/2 cm height and length between front and rear walls. It was a harvest :). My own "harvest" was much smaller. I saw only some mites on entrance. All the best Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www1.omnitel.net/zu/zu_e.html http://www.lei.lt 55 North, 24 East ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:21:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: usda kill a beekeeper program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/27/98 7:38:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes: > When I buy sugar, which is not very often, I pay the equivalent of 30 us > dollars per 100 pounds. So what are you complaining about, Chris? I wish I could buy sugar at that price here on the right coast. Our sources run $34-35, plus trucking. We've about given up using sugar. The old honey loan program gave a modest subsidy, that helped us compete with highly subsidized Chinese honey. Emperor Sleaze eliminated it as an example of the elimination of wasteful government programs. Over the next five years, he saved enough to pay for the cost of his coronat.......um......inauguration. Under the old program, you put the honey under loan at one price, and within nine months could "buyback" at a slightly lower price, and interest would be forgiven also. Since the buyback rate tended to set the market rate, a lot of beekeepers just turned the honey over to the gummit, rather that do all the work of marketing it. I used the program for a couple years, bought back some to pack, and let the rest go. For me, the red tape wasn't worth it. I certainly have no interest in using the current program. There was a lot of fraud in the program too. I know of one packer who contracted to pack this honey which sat in gummit warehouses. He got drums of clover and black locust honey in, and purple loosestrife (looks like Pennzoil and doesn't taste much better) went back out in the jars. This bakers grade honey, packed as table grade, was given to schools and po' folks, and wiped out a generation of honey consumers. A neighbor brought me over a jar of the gummit honey one time. After a taste, I suggested she throw it out, and I gave her a jar of REAL honey. My customers are mostly WWII generation, who learned to use honey when sugar was rationed, and young, health conscious yuppies. There are few customers in the middle generation. They'll tell you they don't like honey. But they do, if you give them a taste..... So I agree that most gummit programs offer more drawbacks than advantage. I think that most beekeepers participated in the old honey loan program because it was the only game in town, and many will likely participate in the new one out of desperation. It is said that farmers are the first to feel hard times coming, and the farmers and beekeepers I know are mighty discouraged right now. The public has the illusion of prosperity, but we are being led into moral and fiscal bankruptcy, with the blind leading the blind. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:55:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Gabon tapes In-Reply-To: <13162909331311@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >> There you wrote about "Gabon tapes". Can you tell me, what kind >> of chemical against Varroa is it? > Gabon tapes are veneer strips (wood) soaked with some sodium salt ( > sounds similar to nitrate: Natrio Nitrinas in Lithuanian). Gabon strips contains acrinathrin. IUPAC name: (S)-alpha-cyano-3-phenoxybenzyl(Z)-(1R,3S)-2,2-dimethyl-3-[2-(2-2-2-t rifluoromethylethoxycarbonyl)vinyl]cyclopropane-caboxylate :-) Dose/colony: 0,1 mg Toxicity bee/varroa - 200x (amitraz 20x; fluvalinate 2x) \vov ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:53:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Gabon tapes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olda Vancata writes: >Gabon strips contains acrinathrin. > > Thank you very much for formula. Could you explain the shortage : >Toxicity bee/varroa - 200x (amitraz 20x; fluvalinate 2x) > >\vov Sincerely Yours Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www1.omnitel.net/zu/zu_e.html http://www.lei.lt 55 North, 24 East ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:58:35 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Repost: Best of BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Want to reduce your email, but still read and participate in most of the worthwhile discussions from BEE-L? Best of Bee now has about 700 subscribers -- about the same as the number of BEE-L subscribers. Subscribing to 'Best of Bee' will bring you only selected and edited posts from BEE-L. This is a reduction of 10 to 95% in mail flow (about 95% in recent days). This option is best suited to experienced beekeepers and others who wish to avoid very basic discussions, chatter, flames, misdirected posts, loooonnggggg quotes and 'me too' responses but still track the significant activity on the BEE-L mailing list. How to receive Best of Bee: Send email to HoneyBee@systronix.net, saying JOIN BESTOFBEE you@whatever.com Replace 'you@whatever.com' in the above command with the actual email address to which you want the list to be sent -- (usually yours). IMPORTANT: If you are a BEE-L subscriber and want to turn off BEE-L without losing the privilege of posting to BEE-L in response to BEE-L messages received on 'Best of Bee', send email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SET BEE-L NOMAIL or Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/email.htm to update or change your BEE-L and Best of Bee subscription options using a web form. For more information, send email to bees@systronix.net, saying SEND BESTBEE in the subject line. You will receive a text file within a day or so, or simply visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee/bestofbe.htm For those who want to know more about the selection and editorial policies of Best of Bee, send email to bees@systronix.net, saying SEND CRITERIA in the subject line or simply visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee/criteria.htm Allen --- You can search the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L "key phrase" Substitute several words for "key phrase" above. and use the double quotes to exclude hits on the individual words in the phrase. Single words do not need quotes. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:16:44 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Reminder: Bee Ads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ is a pretty popular site. In spite of the fact that it does not work perfectly, many people write me to say that they found what they want through the free ads. I apologize for the fact that several ads may appear on one page. That's a glitch in the software and my incompetence when it comes to using it. FWIW, Ignore the counter, I've reset it a few times. Anyhow, please do use and enjoy it. I intend to fix the search and maybe rearrange the ads someday, but in the meantime, it works well enough. Read the present ads for some inspiration, and maybe you'll remember you have something that you want to buy, sell or find too. Please keep the topics to things having to do with bees, even if you decide to stretch it a bit. I don't mind tastefully brief ads from dealers or links to their sites there, either. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:54:53 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Apistan use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon Stowe asks about the effectiveness of treating a 2 story hive by only putting the strips in the second hive body instead of in both, because the frames are stuck together with bridge comb. He also asks about putting the strips at the hive entrance. I don't see a reply to his query on the list. Answer: The simple answer is "Follow the label!!!" For proper treatment of a colony (most of the bees are in the lower box in the fall) the strips must be placed within the cluster of bees in a manner that will distribute the chemical among the most bees. Use one strip for each 5 combs of bees or less. I have witnessed beekeepers using only one or two strips, or one new and one old strip, placing them in the top box because it was easy to get to, and because they wanted to save some cash. The result was that colonies were only partially treated, and twice as many dead or 1/2 dead colonies occurred as in those colonies where the proper number of new strips were used. I even saw a large number of mites (10 to 20) running around on the bees and open brood in the lower box when only the top box was treated. There were doubtless many more that I didn't see. (I say didn't see because in my hives I have never "seen" more than one mite in one hive all summer long with careful looking, yet each fall I test each colony and find between one and 1200 mites on a sticky board after 48 hours.) Gordon, the replies you've received about burr comb are mostly accurate. The equipment I see out here in Washington usually has a 1/4 inch space above the frame top bars and 1/8 inch space below the frame bottom bars. When two boxes of frames are stacked above each other a bee space results. I sometimes see less or more of a bee space because the manufacturer has cut the frame end bars too short or too long, or has cut the dado for the top or bottom bars to shallow or too deep. Follow the label when using any chemical on bees! Putting the strips at the hive entrance cuts the treating surface in 1/2, and the bees are only momentarily in contact with the strip as the walk into the hive. This technique severely limits the amount of chemical available to treat mites and will promote mite tolerance. Some bees may not contact the strip at all because they go up the inside of the front wall of the hive. Only placing the strips among the bees per the label will provide the proper dosage of Fluvalinate. If you have trouble with bridge and ladder comb, correct the bee space, provide enough room for the colony during the honey flow, or recognize that individual colonies build more burr comb than others in the fall to control air movement in the hive. The solution is to scrape each brood box, frame, and the frame rabbits once each year, usually in the spring, to remove burr comb and propolis. If you work the brood nest several times in the spring and early summer, I think that you will see less burr comb deposited by the bees. Observation suggests that let-alone beekeeping results in a lot of burr comb. When placing the strips in a hive, insert your hive tool between the end bars of two frames within the cluster, on opposite corners of the hive body and spread the frames. Hang the strips between these frames, within the cluster of bees, so that the bees can walk around the strips. After removing the strips in 42 to 56 days, use a hive tool to push the frame end bars together again. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:34:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Gabon tapes In-Reply-To: <16011660931555@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Could you explain the shortage : >Toxicity bee/varroa - 200x > (amitraz 20x; fluvalinate 2x) All stuff mentioned above used for fighting varroa are poisonous for varroa (must be in order to kill v.) and for bees as well. The 'shortage' bee/varroa shows the difference factor. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:50:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: air nailers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All: I bought an air nailer about a month ago and have been using it to fasten frames. It shoots up to a one and a quarter inch brad (18 guage). I am extremely pleased with it. I am just finishing 5000 frames and found that a person can assemble 50 frames (with permadent foundation) and fasten them per hour. This is about twice as fast as with a hammer and cigar box nails. So now I am thinking about getting or renting an air stapler to use for fastening supers, and other equipment. I was wondering if someone could give me advice on the size of staples needed for rabbet jointed and glued supers. Would a sixteen guage, two inch long staple with a seven sixteens inch crown be the right size to use? Would an air stapler be better than a coil nailer? Thankyou, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: jrosas@uniandes.edu.co Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jose Rosas Subject: Re: usda kill a beekeeper program In-Reply-To: <199811280149.RAA05838@smtp2.jps.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I understand you mix the sugar with drugs, I am starting my beekeeping program, and I am trying to learn from the information on the list, so I appreciate if ttul, the OLd Drone, can give me some information on how he prepares his sugar, and what drugs and quantities does he put on it... Regards, and congratulations for the list.... Jose Rosas jrosas@uniandes.edu.co Colombia, S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:45:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: usda kill a beekeeper program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sorry, I got my arithmetic wrong when translating kilos into pounds and pounds into dollars. I pay 65 pence a kilo for sugar which is about 30 pounds sterling for 100 pounds weight which is about 45 US dollars (I think) Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:04:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: More USDA "kill a beekeeper" with BS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 11.28 Latest line of Bee Pest Control BS with the help of the Steve Buchmann of the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center. "Even if you exterminated every honeybee and all the Africanized bees, we would not be out the window in terms of pollination because of these native bees.'' "Pollination unlikely to suffer from bee losses" never better said by any DUSTY and this one's on our payroll. I for one will remember that next time they need a friend to help get more public funding. How easy it is to stomp on a flat cat, but how those cats do recover! Remember those famous lies, will add one more. "I am here from the Carl Hayen Honey Bee Research Center and I am here to help you beekeepers." Yeah you bet, and so is Dr. Death! You can find the full story at http://beenet.com/bnews.htm Chow, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com Left Coast, Republic of America ICBM Target Info removed for security reasons (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:03:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Buck Rut Subject: Number of Supers per Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings all, I use medium depth supers for my honey supers. Being new at this, I am not sure how many supers to have on hand for the honey flow. Is there a rule of thumb for medium supers? Also, are shallow supers on their way out? Is there a rule of thumb for how many shallow supers to have on hand per hive? I have checked all my book sources, and cant find the answer anywhere. Thanks for your help with this problem. Happy Holidays all! Sincerely, Scott Moser Moser's Apiary Cedar Hill, MO. " Life mirrors that of a beekeeper, for the occasional sting is worth the sweet reward" S. Moser _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com