From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:13:28 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26504 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09779 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171613.MAA09779@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:22 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9812C" To: adamf@TITAN.METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 150140 Lines: 3385 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:45:34 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Honey Adulteration! Comments: cc: tegart@telusplanet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Analog/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:43:40 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dr Max Watkins Subject: Re: Gabon tapes (by Dr. Max Watkins) In-Reply-To: <913307731.11916.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Sorry Olda, but there may be some confusion here. Please see my comments below: In message <913307731.11916.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Olda Vancata writes >> Gabon tapes contain acrinathrin which is very closely related to >> tau- fluvalinate, the active ingredient in Apistan/Mavrik/Klartan >> and to flumethrin, the active ingredient in Bayvarol and Bayticol. >> It is proven that there is a cross-resistance in varroa to all three >> substances. This means that if there are pyrethoid resistant mites, >> Gabon will be no more effective than Apistan or Bayvarol. > >Varroa will probably develope resistance to all pyrethroids. It's >probably matter of time. But as I know, the tests - so far - >showed that varroa resistant to Apistan was not resistant to Gabon. >Not yet. Professor Norberto Milani of the University of Udine, Italy proved conclusively in 1996 that there is a cross-resistance (in varroa) between tau-fluvalinate, flumethrin and acrinathrin. This is published. If you are getting control with acrinathrin then chances are you do not have a large proportion of pyrethroid-resistant mites in your colonies. It's not to do with "non-acrinathrin resistance" vs "other pyrethroid- resistance". Just "not-many-resistant-mites-here" phenomenon! > >Talking about relationship of pyrethroids (your statement >'acrinathrin which is very closely related to tau- fluvalinate' can >be discussed...) is simillar to talking about relationship between >antibiotics. It does exist bacterias which are resistant to some >antibiotics and so far not to others. So far we can't say if some >bacteria is resistant to one antibiotic, it's resistant to all of >them. So far. > I agree about the antibiotic scenario, but I wasn't talking generally; there is direct evidence of this pyrethroid cross-resistance with varroa. >When talking pyrethroids relationsship you must think that Gabon is >- let say - a 'second generation' of pyrethroids. > As is tau-fluvalinate. >Take for example a look at the dosage for one beehive (mentioned >before): >Apistan: around 1000 mg (different in different countries ) >Gabon: 0,1 mg > Two Apistan strips should be used per hive treatment, each containing 800mg tau-fluvalinate. However, the actual treatment is not 1600 mg tau- fluvalinate. The strip is heavily loaded so that a constant release of active ingredient at a very low level is effected from the strips. The actual amount of tau-fluvalinate that reaches the bees/varroa is miniscule but the high loading is necessary to give the release pattern from the reservoir within the strip. I don't have information on the Gabon formulation. >I even mentioned before - toxicity for bee/varroa >fluvalinate: 2x >acrinathrine: 200x I'm not sure what you are saying but let me clarify that the safety margin for tau-fluvalinate between killing varroa and killing bees is 20,000 x. This means it is "safe" for bees but toxic to varroa mites. Can you clarify what the situation is for acrinathrin. > >Lot of people are concerned about residues (when talking pyrethroids - >in wax which can be present in honey ). > >LD50/man >fluvalinate (Apistan ): 250 g LD50 tau-fluvalinate = >3000 mg/kg >acrinathrine (Gabon ): 280 g >(compare with salt (NaCl) - 200g ) > Acrinathrin LD50? >ADI/man (Acceptable Dayly Intake ): >fluvalinate: 7 mg No The ADI for tau-fluvalinate for a 70 kg man is 0.7 mg per day >acrinathrine: 1,4 mg > ? >NOEL /man (NO Effect Level ): >fluvalinate: 70 mg NOEL for tau-fluvalinate is 1 mg/kg/day >acrinathrine: 210 mg > ? >\vov -- Dr Max Watkins Director, Vita (Europe) Limited Basingstoke, Hampshire RG21 7RD, UK Tel 44 (0) 1256 473 177 Fax 44 (0) 1256 473 179 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:24:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Allen Dick wrote: > Visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Analog/ I sincerely hope the counter on that web page is broken 'casue when I got there it was set at 23. TWENTY THREE!!! Seriously folks, check it out!! You will find proposed action to address what some perceive as the top of the list of the top problems facing today's beekeepers, honey adulteration!!! Last week, Walter Patton posted to BEE-L a wake up call to ALL beekeepers warning of the threat to "pure honey" posed by Dhampur Invertos Ltd and their product "Honey Analog". I was AMAZED that there was no response to Walter's post!!! Let me reiterate Walter's wake up call, "WAKE UP FOLKS!!!". If you're appalled by the price you're paid for your honey today, imagine what you'll be paid if unscrupulous packers can suddenly stretch your honey twice as far!?!? Many people often complain that politics don't belong on BEE-L and there are times when I am forced to agree. But this is one time where BEE-L NEEDS to be political. As producers we cannot sit back while Dhampur Invertos Ltd promotes "Honey Analog", recommending that it be used 1:1 with pure honey while consumers will be none the wiser. "Honey Analog" is to honey as processed cheese food is to the cheese industry and immitation maple syrup is to the pure maple syrup industry. Imagine jars of adulterated honey on grocers' shelves selling for 69 cents!!! Having problems making a living when you receive 50 cents or less a pound today? How will you make it at 25 cents, perhaps less? This is the spectre that "Honey Analog" presents. This is not an issue to be ostrichcized by sticking your head in the sand!!! Aaron Morris - thinking Act, and act now! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:16:09 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Bees in chicken feeder Hi Tom/All Bees will feed on such sources if they have the urge. It is possible they are collecting a sugar from the feed - I would geuss that being a chicken feed it will have some spent malt (I think it's called grist) - this is the stuff that is left over after a brewery has finished extracting nutrients from malt to make beer. It still contains a few % maltose - a sweet sugar bees will collect, which I gather is not fantastic for them though. It will also contain other things that will excite them a bit. I have heard of bees colecting animal feed as pollen - but have never seen this myself. The danger is that one sting will nock a chicken out - birds are extremely sensitive to bee venom. I know that some ostrich farmers in my area actually purposefully remove wild beehives within 500m of lucerne (alfalfa) fields here so as to avaoid losing birds to accidental stings incurred by a bird eating a bee on a flower. It may be worthwile doing something to stop the foraging - like putting the food under a roof in the shade - this reduces the chances of bees going to it as they seldom fly in shaded areas if the air temperature is below their body temperature. Keep well Garth Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:26:18 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Clustering problem Hi All It has been interesting following the thread on the cluster of bees on the outside of a hive body and how to move it with that. Well, here if we move any hives we expect to pick up 100+ stings per person per 20 hives - with smoke!! (Ie they are calm) The cluster of bees at the entrance of a hive at night is a great sign if the queen in the hive is young. If she is old, it means you will lose the swarm soon, as those are surpluss bees not needed for keeping the hive warm. I try to maintain all my production hives with a thick beard at night - I call it a beard. Ideally the beard should cover the hive entrance and be about halfway up the side of the brood box (deep). Anything that tries to tamper with such a hive will be hurt and vandalism by night is minimalised. Even an experienced beekeeper (me) trying to work such a hive will be nailed by crawlers - the worst type of stining formation. If such production hives are to be moved it is adviseable to put an empty super under the lid. This gives the bees thinking space and calms them down considerable. When one gets to the new site, the supers are filled with combs. Hope this helps Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:26:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Norman CotÊ" Subject: Re: Bees in chicken feeder Comments: To: g95c6713@WARTHOG.RU.AC.ZA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have two bird feeders that have cracked corn in them and I always see bees gathering the dust from them. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:35:29 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Allen Dick wrote: > > Visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Analog/ > > I sincerely hope the counter on that web page is broken 'casue when I > got there it was set at 23. TWENTY THREE!!! > > Seriously folks, check it out!! You will find proposed action to > address what some perceive as the top of the list of the top problems > facing today's beekeepers, honey adulteration!!! As of today, the counter stood at 48, so there is some movement afoot. The internet is a wonderful tool to combat such an international threat such as this, but only if people all over the world react. The adulteration company brags that they sell in Russia, the middle east and Canada, and that they have a USA representative. So this threat is in all our backyards. I downloaded my copy of the fax sheet today, but who should we in the USA contact about this? The American Beekeepers Federation? The American Honey Producers Association? The US Food and Drug Administration? All of the above? Ted Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:41:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding a response to "Honey Analog" Ted Fischer writes: "... I downloaded my copy of the fax sheet today, but who should we in the USA contact about this? The American Beekeepers Federation? The American Honey Producers Association? The US Food and Drug Administration? All of the above?" I sent this morning E-Mail to representatives of some of the above mentioned organizations and will update the list when I receive responses. In the meantime I'd go with "All of the above?" as well as The National Honey Board (we pay for 'em, we might as well use 'em), and your local representation in Washington, D.C. to give them something to do during their impeachment breaks! Aaron Morris - thinking honey by any other name is not pure honey! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:58:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bruce Thompson Subject: NEW MEMBER Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit HI ALL. I AM A SMALL COMMERCIAL BEEKEEPER IN NEW JERSEY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:50:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <199812151432.GAA28409@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:24 AM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >Allen Dick wrote: >> Visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Analog/ Beekeepers and Friends, For more information on Dhampur Sugar Company and their sugar products stop by http://beenet.com/bnews.htm I agree on the face of what is today known, selling HF as Honey is not right or legal in the US and other areas. I am not convinced that Dhampur is doing any thing different from other sugar companies other then they say they have a HF product that chemically can not be detected as any different then honey. I am not sure this is true for the same reasons they say their product is superior to honey and that is because honey is not chemically pure and does contain pollen and other sugars not found in HF. I do agree that the bee industry should look into this perceived threat and actively stop any products that advertise themselves as Honey as local laws provide at least in the US and Canada. I also think that some consideration should be given to what the public will do if we go off on a big public witch hunt without complete knowledge of the problem, and that is I think they will move away from the use of Honey. High fructose sugar syrups and high fructose corn syrups are here to stay, they are not new and at least the HFC syrups have given the bee industry a alternative bee feed to HF and other sucrose syrups. Dhampur Sugar does not process corn and its sugar syrups under any name are subject to sugar quotas in the US. and most of the world. What they do with them in other countries are of course a concern and may be reason to increase the search for adulterated honey coming in to the US from all countries. If they are selling sugar syrup as Honey they are stealing from their customers and should be stopped. Most bulk honey buyers know the difference between less expensive sugar syrups and Honey and I do not believe any sugar syrup produced in India can compete in price with HF sugar syrups produced locally. Of course if they are allowed to be sold as a cheaper Honey there will be a few who will bite, but most will back off when they discover what they have and that is a HF sugar syrup trading on the good name of Honey which is no different from any HF or HFC syrups do without saying so in most cases. IMHO, Andy- Los Banos, California (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:02:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Relations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beefriends I'm asked by a chairman of our town (Kaunas) beekeepers society to find some beekeepers society in Poland for friendly relations. Also we look for a beekeeping equipment producer, preferred in Poland. Any information is appreciated. Please use my E- mail: zujus@isag.lei.lt Season's Greetings Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www.tourism.lt/ http://www.lei.lt 55 North, 24 East ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:48:17 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <19040721527822@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I agree on the face of what is today known, selling HF as Honey is not > right or legal in the US and other areas. I am not convinced that Dhampur > is doing any thing different from other sugar companies other then they > say they have a HF product that chemically can not be detected as any > different then honey... I tend to agree with Andy here. However, Dave (and I suspect Gwen) sent me the material I used to make the page in question, and I think that some kind of response is in order to the deliberate promotion of something called a 'honey analog', rather than corn syrup, etc. Beside, you all know me, I like a bit of controversy now and then as long as it is friendly. So I put the material where it can be seen: Sorta a run-the-flag-up-the-pole-and-see-who-salutes approach. Is this the end of the world as we know it? I doubt it. That world ended some time ago and we're still surviving on residual body heat (to steal from a long-dead french philosoper). Nonetheless, I think that we need to think this over with clear minds. No issue has only one side. When it comes to winter feed, we have had a problem with inverts int he past up here in the Great White North. Long winters and the slightly reduced cage bee life that has been observed on HFCS compared to sucrose conspire to defeat our attempts to winter on cheap feeds ande leave us hostage to the sugar monoploy here in Canada. Now, along comes a substance that is indistinguishable from honey and apparently it is cheap enough to tempt packers into keeping a few drums close to the blending room door. This is obviously bad news for us as beekeepers, since the potential for damage to markets that have always been ours alone and the potential loss of reputation is something to fear. However -- on the other side -- here may be the long awaited perfect winter feed????? Allen PS: Yes, Dave's effort is focused on Canada, but he has strong ties to California. I'm sure he would be glad to get involved in a US effort too, but his main concern now, if understand correctly, is to ensure Canada obeys the rules. If anyone has any info on a US (or other country's) campaign to deal with this, please send me the material and I will consider psoting it with what you havel seen by now, or linking to any sites dealing with the subject. And in the interest of fairness (and keeping the pot boiling:), I'll consider posting any defenses of what we may euphonistically call 'blending'. -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ often. These ads work fast! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:31:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit No need to go outside the united states or even to a Kentuckey fried Chicken to find fake honey. Please check the web address below for a product called "Ascorbate Honey" http://www.nutri.com/wn/ah.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:07:12 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: Honey Analog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Last week, Walter Patton posted to BEE-L a wake up call to ALL > beekeepers warning of the threat to "pure honey" posed by > Dhampur Invertos Ltd and their product "Honey Analog". I was AMAZED > that there was no response to Walter's post!!! I ask Dhampur Invertos Ltd for more info on that product NO RESPONS FROM INDIA!!! greeting, jan In Holland it is forbitten to use the name HONEY for anything other than the product of honeybees. ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ----------------51.55 N, 4.28 E---------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:15:50 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Formic Acid Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, Betterbee called me today with information on a recent order and I could not help myself from asking what the latest news on Formic Acid was. So, here it is: Betterbee has been granted the distributorship for Formic acid (just in case anybody did not know that), and is planning to put it into the 1999 catalog. They are still having packaging proplems, but the product should be available in 1999. Lets hope that this means in the early Spring, and not in December. de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 12/15/98 18:15:50 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:19:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Holbrook Subject: Re: Honey anolog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know about honey analog but I do know this. Americans have already accepted "cut" honey as the real thing. The proof is this. There are two major burger joints in the U.S. One is symbolized by royalty, the other by a clown. If you get those chicken things they will ask you what kind of sauce you want to dip the chicken things into. If you ask what kind they have, "honey" is one of the answers. If you ask for honey, the royal burger joint will give you a honey product, (ie it is not honey but honey cut with corn syrup) On the other hand the clown will give you honey! Interesting word play there, eh! I wonder how many people know the difference and better yet how many give a hoot. Comments anyone! See ya! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:39:17 -0600 Reply-To: ktate@geocities.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kathy Tate Subject: Re: Honey anolog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >If you ask for honey, the royal burger joint will give you a honey >product, (ie it is not honey but honey cut with corn syrup)... Does anyone know how they get around Texas laws that state anything labeled "honey" has to be pure honey? ...or is this a completely different deal? Just wondering... Kathy Tate Stephenville, TX ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:30:41 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Clustering Problem MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ross writes of the problem of moving hives with bees clustered outside. As this hive is in the backyard, I suggest you put some water in a watering can (rain water by preference) and at dusk water the front of the hive. This will send most of the bees inside within a few minutes. I agree with other contributors on this subject that if the bees are still clustering even after the cool change blew through (wasn't it luvverly), then an inspection of the brood to see if the queen is doing as she should, and the hive is not overcrowded, is an early priority. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: - Bees in chicken feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Australia it is very common occurance to see bees feeding on cracked = grain, meal or the like. It is normally during a period of pollen dearth= . I have had bees on a friend's place and the bees were working the feed= in his chicken pen. We have had trouble with bees going to the cattle feed in lot feeders whe= re cattle are fattened. In one case, hives have had to be shifted becaus= e the bees were stopping the cattle from feeding. There is a soulution. = Add molasses to the dry feed and it will stop the bees from feeding. = Not sure why but it works. In dairy farming areas, bees will feed at the milking bales where the cat= tle are feed meal, pollard or cracked grain. I have a cousin who suffers= from this problem at his dairy (not my bees). When the natural pollen = supply again comes back on line, the bees stop pinching from the dairy. After all we feed bees torula yeast, brewers yeast, corn dust, linseed = meal and the like so why shouldn't they go for the dust in things like = chicken and cattle feed. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:07:38 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: Honey Analog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I ask Dhampur Invertos Ltd for more info on that product NO RESPONS FROM INDIA!!! greeting, jan to day I recieve the same email as we see earlier, but with the URL ----------------------------------------- Our honey-analog passes all chemical tests for natural honey & generally processors blend it with natural honey in the ratio of 1:1.We have a huge plant in India with a capacity of 14,400 T.P.Y. so we can easily cater to bulk orders. You can visit our website for more details at- http://www.sugarindia.com Should you have any more queries, please feel free to contact us. We would be glad to receive your worthy trial orders. Thanking you, Sincerely, for Dhampur Invertos Ltd., Sarika ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ----------------51.55 N, 4.28 E---------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:19:15 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: Honey Analog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read on the pages http://www.sugarindia.com/sp_honey.html Benefits : DIL Honey Analog combines all the positive features of natural honey while eliminating the negative aspects. The Honey Analog is chemical free as it is developed through enzymatic process only. Natural honey has a wax content which has a harmful effect in large quantities on the human body. This is eliminated in the analog. Further, absence of impurities in the form of pollen makes the Honey Analog a healthier amp; clearer replacement of natural honey. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! absence of impurities in the form of pollen makes the Honey Analog a healthier amp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! good day, jan....;-( ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ----------------51.55 N, 4.28 E---------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:50:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Gabon tapes (by Dr. Max Watkins) In-Reply-To: <15163718726251@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >>> Gabon tapes contain acrinathrin which is very closely related to >>> tau- fluvalinate substances. This means that if there are >>> pyrethoid resistant mites, Gabon will be no more effective than >>> Apistan or Bayvarol. >> Varroa will probably develope resistance to all pyrethroids. It's >> probably matter of time. But as I know, the tests - so far - >> showed that varroa resistant to Apistan was not resistant to Gabon. >> Not yet. > Professor Norberto Milani of the University of Udine, Italy proved > conclusively in 1996 that there is a cross-resistance (in varroa) > between tau-fluvalinate, flumethrin and acrinathrin. This is > published. Yes. The test was talking about test made in Northen Italy. In NI you have Apistan efficiency around 4-5% (compared with 95 normally). The test I was talking about wasn't made on 'Italian strain' of varroa. > If you are getting control with acrinathrin then chances are you do > not have a large proportion of pyrethroid-resistant mites in your > colonies. It's not to do with "non-acrinathrin resistance" vs "other > pyrethroid- resistance". Just "not-many-resistant-mites-here" > phenomenon! Naturally you must take care about the resistant rest with other chemicals (amitraz, coumaphose). Otherwise you are breeding resistant varroa. >>> When talking pyrethroids relationsship you must think that Gabon >>> is - let say - a 'second generation' of pyrethroids. >As is tau-fluvalinate. One must trust what sales people from Sandos (and other companies are telling you). >> Take for example a look at the dosage for one beehive (mentioned >> before): Apistan: around 1000 mg (different in different countries) >> Gabon: 0,1 mg > Two Apistan strips should be used per hive treatment, each > containing 800mg tau-fluvalinate. However, the actual treatment is > not 1600 mg tau- fluvalinate. I don't have information on the Gabon > formulation. I was talking about how much is probably released. In case of Gabon (wooden strip with polystyrolbutadien + 1 mg acrinathrin) is not the whole amount released either. >> I even mentioned before - toxicity for bee/varroa >> fluvalinate: 2x >> acrinathrine: 200x > I'm not sure what you are saying but let me clarify that the safety > margin for tau-fluvalinate between killing varroa and killing bees > is 20,000 x. This means it is "safe" for bees but toxic to varroa > mites. Can you clarify what the situation is for acrinathrin. You are probably takling in Apistan case about the released dose compared with LD50 for 1 kg bees. Numbers are comparable, because Gabon strips are not releasing the whole amount either - just a fraction. You are probably talking in terms of 'in vitro' LD50varroa/bee. If you need 1600x less amount of Gabon, you can count out that numbers for Gabon your self. >>LD50/man >>fluvalinate (Apistan ): 250 g >LD50 tau-fluvalinate = >3000 mg/kg Correct. LD50/man is a 70 kg's 'man' . Therefore: 3500 mg x 70 = 245g /man (we are counting with allmost same figures). >Acrinathrin LD50? LD50 = 4000 mg/kg = 280 g /man >>ADI/man (Acceptable Dayly Intake ): >>fluvalinate: 7 mg >The ADI for tau-fluvalinate for a 70 kg man is 0.7 mg per day Sorry. You are right. My figures was too old. >>acrinathrine: 1,4 mg >? 0,02mg/kg = 1,4 mg/man >> NOEL /man (NO Effect Level ): >> fluvalinate: 70 mg >NOEL for tau-fluvalinate is 1 mg/kg/day Yes. For RATS ! :-) >acrinathrine: 210 mg for male rats: 2,4 mg/kg for female rats: 3,1 mg/kg for dogs: 3 mg/kg LITERATURE: A world compendium the Pesticide Manual. Tenth edition. Editor Clive Tomlin. British Crop Protection Council.1994 \vov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:58:07 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Honey analog and human allergies Hi All An interesting side spin of the honey adulteration debate is that legally in most countries(especially the sue happy US) it is very important to list all ingredients on a product - in case a rare sod with an allergy to one of your unlisted ingredients goes into anaphylactic shock 30 seconds after eating a product and is ledft brain dead or really dead. Hence a beekeeper who may suspect that some HFCS has actually found it's way into honey may be in for a shock if she/he sells it and somebody (one of the 1 in every 80 000) who is allergic to corn protein dies. Converse to what may be said it is actually very easy to detect the presence of something like HFCS in honey I would geuss as one could use an ELISA (Enzyme linked immunosorbent assay) - what they use to detect HIV antibodies, steroids and such in humans on a honey sample. One would need an antibody raised against one of the common proteins in HFCS - then it would be easy to batch proccess thousands of samples at a cost of probably under a dollar a sample, or if one was being more fancy less than 5 dollars a sample. Hence, from a legal perspective it would be good to contact some of the allergy lobbies in the US, Canada and Britain, as well as people like the Vegans and such who would be willing to invest some money in verifying a products validity. Just an idea Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:04:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Honey anolog Comments: To: ktate@geocities.com In-Reply-To: <199812161147.DAA26575@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:39 AM 12/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone know how they get around Texas laws that state anything >labeled "honey" has to be pure honey? ...or is this a completely >different deal? In California this is true a product other then Pure Honey can not be labeled as Honey and nothing can be added to that Honey. This is good but it makes "cut comb Honey" a problem, and all honey blends such as cinnamon Honey, fruit and Honey, and artificial flowers added to honey all of which have been good sellers in the past but removed from sale when found in California. I don't know what they do today with cut comb honey as it is popular in the Hispanic section of many grocery stores and I only assume the regulatory authorities look the other way and pretend it is a "product of Mexico". Labeling laws here are such that products that contain Honey are not allowed to be marketed in such a way that they are confused with the real thing. This is mostly done by requiring the part of the label that contains the word honey to be smaller then the part that indicates the true nature of the product. In any case these kind of laws require some diligence by consumers and if the consumers do not complain many times a mis labeled product will be allowed or missed so it is very critical that any product found to be mis labeled or mis represented be brought to the attention of the regulatory authorities. In California this is the same bunch of nice people who regulate Honey Bees and have seen in the past nothing wrong with killing them all to prevent some perceived pest such as T-Mites, "killer" ants, and the like so you know where their heads are. Chow, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:13:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: H-ana Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *FYI* ripped off the sci.arg.beekeeping news group On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:16:10 -0800, amschelp@pe.net (Peter Amschel) wrote: >California already has laws against such adulteration. You are right and I am yet to be convinced that this sugar company, Dhampur in India is a new threat to our Honey industry or wishes us harm in any way but to be honest the arguement that has perked my interest is that they advertise that chemically their product H-ana (Honey-analog) can not be differentiated from honey. I do not believe this, yet, but some beekeepers are saying its so as they have, they say, contacted labs that could not through standard chemical sugar or honey analysis say it was not honey. All should be aware that some labs can not tell the difference between enzyme processed HF or HFC syrups and Honey but these are not the labs that suspicious samples of honey should be sent too. I must also say I have asked the Dhampur Sugar company for a sample of H-ana for analysis and they have shipped it today, they say. I will give it the OLd Drones 98 cent honey test before I send it off for a look see at our friendly sugar company lab who have hopes we beekeepers will prevail in keeping another sugar competitor away from our shores. Sugar today to the growers in the US is a loss and they are receiving 7-15% less then five or six years ago on a much reduced acreage, so they say. One thing for sure the Dhampur cane sugar company does make a product of invert sugar they call a honey-analog or H-ana and their promotion would lead most reasonable people to believe they are selling it to beekeepers and honey packers all over the world to blend with honey 50/50 or 1 to 1 to sell the resulting sugar product as honey.. This sucks or stinks, don't know which is politically correct these days as Clinton gave one or the other a bad name. ****Anyway this is not right and I would suggest the first cause of action by worried honey producers is to visit the Dhampur web site and let them know what you think after a look see. They don't get that many visitors and I am sure if they were to get some constructive critiques of their businesses practices they would take note of it.*** The Dhampur company is rated 360 out of the 500 largest companies in India and had sales in 1996 of about 450 million $ US. I suspect or I want to think that something may be lost in the translation from Indian to English and also would not be surprised if the company knows of any problem with honey producers as this product is one of many HF and HFC products that can be fed to bees and they would like to sell you some to do just that. If this easy effort does not work then there is the world trade courts but beekeepers in the US got burned badly when they went into debt to make a successful case against unfair China Honey trade practices when Canadian interests took the honey that could not be shipped to the US by treaty between China and the US and transshipped it to the US as a "Product of Canada" circumventing the ruling against China. This was no small deal and is much bigger in $$ value to US beekeepers then all the Indian HF shipped to the US to this date no matter what you call it. It is interesting to note the interest in Dhampur and Honey-analog has started in Canada but of course we don't want to be unfair as I am sure none of the honey producers there knew anything about the Chinease-Canadian Honey deal or would admit to it. You can find web connections to Dhampur and other information on Honey-analog or H-ana at: http://beenet.com/bnews.htm Chow, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Cut comb not pure honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to Andy's comments about what is and is not allowed in California - The authorities that be should be challenged to point out just what has been "added" to cut comb honey. Comb honey in all forms is really the most basic, purest form of honey there is. It is even in its original container, as put there by the bee! It is up the the consumer to decide what to do with this container (the beeswax cell). If he/she wants to eat the container, what should that matter to the state of California? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:13:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Cut comb not pure honey? Comments: To: tvf@umich.edu In-Reply-To: <199812161640.IAA06822@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:38 AM 12/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >In response to Andy's comments about what is and is not allowed in >California - The authorities that be should be challenged to point out >just what has been "added" to cut comb honey. Comb honey in all forms >is really the most basic, purest form of honey there is. It is even in >its original container, as put there by the bee! It is up the the >consumer to decide what to do with this container (the beeswax cell). >If he/she wants to eat the container, what should that matter to the >state of California? CUT COMB HONEY, COMB HONEY, HONEY all approved for Labels in California but honey must be Pure or 100% honey so liquid honey with comb must be labeled CUT COMB HONEY and not HONEY. I don't know if its been changed as there is so little cut comb honey sold in California but it is a stock item in the Mexican Section of many grocery stores today and has gained a small market share. Some one may want to search out the latest California laws to see if this was ever changed but to the best of my knowledge it has not been. I do agree California has some strange bee and honey regulations but I can guarantee anyone that wants to challenge the regulatory authorities here they will tell you the "law is the law" and to go to the hill, (not hell). The hill is the abode of our law makers and laws can be changed but by the time you jump through all the hoops you will could have purchased all the cut comb honey in California and then end up getting the shaft from some group that wants all honey labeled as poison because some kid they don't know may have died from infant botulism. It was a lot easier in the old days when you could take a truck load of California Honey to the hill and have it put out on everybody's desk and then have a local law maker introduce a law the same day to make some minor change without a problem or great cost or effort. Today that would get you some rest time in the lock up. Chow, Andy- (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:46:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cesar Flores Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Dec 1998 to 15 Dec 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit << Many people often complain that politics don't belong on BEE-L and there are times when I am forced to agree. But this is one time where BEE-L NEEDS to be political. As producers we cannot sit back while Dhampur Invertos Ltd promotes "Honey Analog" >> Ok fine... Let them produce and market this non-food. I still believe in the power of the marketplace and the ability of educated people to make intelligent choices. If anything, now is the time for valiant beekeepers to maintain their integrity and continue to provide unmolested honey of the highest quality and for us to never cease our efforts to inform the public about the value of truely original honey. This adulteration is yet another part of the onslaught of factory "foods" promoted through massive distribution systems and media campaigns run by the parasitic-elite people have been subjected to ever since they chose to be removed from the source of their food. Go through any supermarket and you will see many charicatures of the original products. Nevertheless there is a resistance to this flood and this is where our attention belongs. The more pervasive these depleted goods become the more the uncorrupted will desperately seek out the remaining quality and pay for it. We will be there waiting for them. Cesar Flores ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:29:13 -0800 Reply-To: ryarnell@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Re: H-ana In jurisdictions where rules are clear about adulteration, then a case could be made that Dhampur is conspiring with its customers to break the law. In that event, Dhampur could be charged with conspiracy. A "sting" would be easy to set up. If Andy (or anyone else) gets his sample together with literature which suggests mixing it with honey, a trip to the AG might be in order. (No claim to legal expertise intended.) Andy wrote in response to amschelp: >*FYI* ripped off the sci.arg.beekeeping news group >>California already has laws against such adulteration. >One thing for sure the Dhampur cane sugar company does make a product >of invert sugar they call a honey-analog or H-ana and their promotion >would lead most reasonable people to believe they are selling it to >beekeepers and honey packers all over the world to blend with honey >50/50 or 1 to 1 to sell the resulting sugar product as honey.... >You can find web connections to Dhampur and other information on >Honey-analog or H-ana at: http://beenet.com/bnews.htm -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:39:22 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Re: Honey anolog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, Analog honey is for analog people! No problem! I will advertize my honey as the real thing for real people. Next I will tell the buying public that local honey, from a local beekeeper, who must look them in the eye, the next time they come to town to buy some more honey, is a better buy than honey from an unknown source. I know the big guys can't do this, and I do have a soft spot in my heart for them. They pay the fiddler when it comes to keeping bee supply companies in business, and I appreciate that. Would it be worth while for a big honey producer to bottle and sell some honey locally, simply for the promotion of the industry, and educating the buying public as to the benefits of buying from a home town producer? de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 12/16/98 16:39:22 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:16:25 -0500 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: H-ana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Dec 98, at 7:13, Andy Nachbaur wrote: > If this easy effort does not work then there is the world trade courts but > beekeepers in the US got burned badly when they went into debt to make a > successful case against unfair China Honey trade practices when Canadian > interests took the honey that could not be shipped to the US by treaty > between China and the US and transshipped it to the US as a "Product of > Canada" circumventing the ruling against China. Enough is enough. These baseless accusations are unfair, and unwarranted, there is absolutely no truth in this statement. Canada returned a number of adulterated shipments to the exporters and refused to entertain it, and on examination could not find evidence of illegal dumping of Chinese honey to the American market. I would suggest you listen to the prophets, 'either put up or.....' till you have definite proof. Is there not something about 'bearing false witness' and 'judge not less.....'? Your dislike of things Canadian is beginning to be obvious. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Beekeeper Jackets. **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:54:55 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Bees in Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, apologies to everybody for the bad netiquette. Thank you for the reprimand, Aaron. I really didn't know. Dear Garth, In 1990, I observed bees collecting baker's flour in lumps on their hind legs and bringing it home to the hive. We had one of our apiaries near a bakery and our bees would fly 75 meters straight through a crack in the wall and into the flour trough. They were even depositing it into their combs. Only 2 or 3 colonies in the 100 colony apiary did this though. Joel Feliciano Magsaysay Landline & Telefax: (063) 046-865-0018 Cellphone & Cellfax: IDD: 063-912-318-7517 DDD: 0912-318-7517 Mail to: P. O. Box #1, 4118 Silang, Cavite, Philippines Home Apiary: ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS #8 ILOG MARIA KM. 47, AGUINALDO HIGHWAY LALAAN 1, SILANG, CAVITE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:11:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: bees in the chicken feeder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit It sounds as if your son's bees are after protein. Are there any plants yielding pollen close by at this time of year? Were bees carrying powder from the chicken feeder in their pollen baskets? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:41:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Holbrook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know how they get around Texas laws that state anything labeled "honey" has to be pure honey? They don't call it honey, they call it a honey product or a honey sauce. However, they will give you the honey product if you ask for honey! Unfortunately, I would bet that most customers and even employees of the place, never even notice. _ _ (o!o) Jeff Holbrook ((___)) holbrook@northnet.org ---"-"--- Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:01:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Holbrook Subject: Re: Honey analog and human allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hence, from a legal perspective it would be good to contact some of the allergy lobbies in the US, Canada and Britain, as well as people like the Vegans and such who would be willing to invest some money in verifying a products validity. I'm not an expert in this but at least in my experience, vegans do not touch honey. It is just another product derived from animals that should be abolished according to their way of thinking, if you can call it that. I assume that they would be very interested in the honey analog as a replacement for honey in their lives. In their case they would most likely use the honey analog "straight up." I assume that they would be on the other side of the fence from beekeepers in that they would want to know if any of their honey analog was adulterated with honey! _ _ (o!o) Jeff Holbrook ((___)) holbrook@northnet.org ---"-"--- Canton, NY Thinking I'm glad I'm not a vegan as I would not know the joys of beekeeping or beehaving, which ever description others think that I merit. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:47:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Dec 1998 to 16 Dec 1998 In-Reply-To: <913870925.2012769.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <913870925.2012769.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Automatic digest processor writes >DIL Honey Analog combines all the positive features of natural honey while >eliminating the negative aspects. The Honey Analog is chemical free as it is >developed >through enzymatic process only. Natural honey has a wax content which has a >harmful >effect in large quantities on the human body. This is eliminated in the analog. >Further, >absence of impurities in the form of pollen makes the Honey Analog a healthier >amp; >clearer replacement of natural honey. > What a load of rubbish! Average composition of honey: Water 17.20% Laevulose 38.20% Dextrose 31.30% Sucrose 01.30% Reducing saccharides 07.30% Higher sugars 01.50% Free acids 00.43% Lactose 00.14% Total acids 00.57% Ash 00.169% Nitrogen 00.041% Total = 98.15% (Doesn't leave much for wax which the body can't digest and passes trhough the system) pH 03.91% Diastase 22.107 Pollen is protein which every animal body (including human) needs in one form or another -- Tom Speight ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:23:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: Re: Honey anolog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy, just saw on the news, that San Bernadino, had 4 people hurt by stinging of Africian bees. Any truth to it. Walt in BarnwellSC ---------- > From: Andy Nachbaur > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Honey anolog > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:04 AM > > (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:34:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: APOLOGY TO ALL! In-Reply-To: <199812170334.TAA23854@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:16 PM 12/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >On 16 Dec 98, at 7:13, Andy Nachbaur wrote: >> beekeepers in the US got burned badly when they went into debt to make a >> successful case against unfair China Honey trade practices when Canadian >> interests took the honey that could not be shipped to the US by treaty >> between China and the US and transshipped it to the US as a "Product of >> Canada" circumventing the ruling against China. >Enough is enough. These baseless accusations are unfair, and >unwarranted, there is absolutely no truth in this statement. To Mr. Eyre, and my Beekeeping Friends, I am sorry Mr. Eyre and apologize if the news I report is bad or any do not agree with it, or with any spin that I may add to it that offends any other beekeeper, bee scientist, or any other friend to beekeepers. I do not make the news and I realize much of what is reported about beekeepers, beekeeping and honeybees is slanted, with half truths and mixed with a few big lies thrown together to get you to buy it and read it. One only has to read todays or yesterdays BeeNews to see for your own eyes the difference spin can make between papers and see the lies that are fed to the public with your own eyes. Or maybe you believe that the Los Angeles Area Vector Control people are going to breed tame African bees and put themselves out of business as was quoted in today news when things are just getting going controlling honeybees. The information I reported on Chinese honey imported into Canada and transhipped to the US is a matter of public record and I believe this not only harmed the US honey producer but also the Canadian Honey producer some who may have been so involved to deny it ever happened or to realize that with the short time the price of honey was high in the US, an important market for many beekeepers from countries other then Canada, that by transhipping Chinese Honey to the US that high price window was narrowed and is now closed..maybe for generations to come or just for as long as we are honey producers. A few others may have been involved in supplying the Canadian Honey involved in the blending and do not want to admit it. I did not have to add anything to this story as the facts are clear for anyone who is interested enough to read them and has been reported by others with no different conclusion then what I have found and reported myself. I am sure any honey producer involved will say it was that dirty old honey packer who did it all. You will find the latest stats on Chinese Honey Imported into Canada at this url or in the BeeNews Archives. http://www.fas.usda.gov/scriptsg/gain_display_report.exe?Rep_ID=25362073.0 Much more information can be found on this subject by searching out the CIA or US Embassy and Station Reports for Honey and Canada and reading them. I can provide them but I don't want to have everyone thinK I am anti-Canadian honey producer just because of a small 5-10 thousands metric tons of Chinese Honey transhipped to the US when it is just 5-10 thousand metric tons less of honest Canadian Produced Honey that was not shipped in seceding years or that will be shipped at much lower prices. >Canada returned a number of adulterated shipments to the >exporters and refused to entertain it, and on examination could not >find evidence of illegal dumping of Chinese honey to the American market. I do not believe that I ever said that anyone involved in Canada was in violation of any law other then what is expected between and from beekeeping brothers in adjoining states. I know squat about Canadian Law and know more then I ever wanted to know about California Law, and US Trade Law and that is mostly how to find out answers to my own questions. >This months special: >I would suggest you listen to the prophets, 'either put up or.....' >till you have definite proof. >Is there not something about 'bearing false witness' and 'judge >not less.....'? Your dislike of things Canadian is beginning to be obvious. >**************************************** I rarely use this kind of rhetoric in my personal search for the truth and I guess its because I try to live it in my daily life and see not the need to profess it and believe what I write does express what's in my own heart as what others write does the same for theirs. I would suggest if the effort given to personal attacks on me were applied directly to the Dhampur Sugar Company over their promotion of H-ana or Honey-analog sugar syrup maybe some good would come of it. I don't know and am sure they will continue to manfacture HF sugar products just as sure as I will contine to write and report about beekeepers and beekeeping as I have seen it in the past or see it today, I guess its just what we do and we will never please everyone. But these are very special personal times for me, a time to reflect, repent, and to wish you all the same and may the spirits of the season warm all your hearts and may the Pure Honey on your Apple and in your Bible bring all the sweet rewards promised for the New Year and Season soon to come. Andy Nachbaur the OLd Drone Los Banos, California ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:53:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Dec 1998 to 16 Dec 1998 In-Reply-To: <913870925.2012769.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <913870925.2012769.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Automatic digest processor writes >Hence, from a legal perspective it would be good to contact some of >the allergy lobbies in the US, Canada and Britain, as well as people >like the Vegans and such who would be willing to invest some money in >verifying a products validity. Garth, Just for your information, one of the vegetarian magazines in Britain a couple of years ago advised it's readers NOT to eat honey because of the 'unnatural' conditions in which bees were kept, being forced to produce honey for the beekeeper. No doubt another poster will have a better memory recall than I. Regards -- Tom Speight ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Griggs Subject: Blended with Natural honey 1:1? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" I admit that this may be out of the blue as I have not had the time to fully follow this thread. It does show how big (and growing) the problem of honey adulteration must be for a company to put in the R&D to produce a product advertised "same physical & chemical composition and properties as natural honey... Our honey-analog passes all chemical tests for natural honey & generally processors blend it with natural honey in the ratio of 1:1. "The company Dhampur Invertos Ltd. is involved in making speciality sugars - both liquid & solid. Honey-analogs are being supplied to various honey processors all over the world especially Russia, Middle east & Canada for blending with natural honey. The characteristic of honey-analog is that it is enzymatically processed in an automatic plant enroute the same way as honey bees process it naturally. After extensive Research & Development, we could develop a product which had same physical & chemical composition and properties as natural honey. This was primarily done to meet the growing demand for honey & to make its processing more cost effective....." The growing profit margin from the adulteration of pure honey must be sufficient to actually drive a market to supply a product expressly for this purpose. Was it a former processor who took the idea to industry or was it a sales person who noticed the growing market of beekeepers buying HFCS for feeding and/or cutting honey? On a long term view this "may" help the smaller beekeeper selling product retail (off his own stand) since there is a definite following of people that want to buy Pure Honey. Concomitantly it may cause a backlash to those who continue adding ........ whatever ( fill in the blank) if they are found out, I would hope. Finally it may become an antagonistic battle between techniques to test the purity of honey vs production of "Analog". I evision this to swing back and forth like the radar guns vs radar detectors. A new roll out of a radar band guns to detect speeders, developed for police is countered with a new detector or jamming devise available to drivers. We all pay in the end! Seems to me the developers of products for the police leak the info to companies producing the detectors as that is the lions share of the market.... I could go on but I wol'nt. Either way it is ever more important to educate your clientele. This coupled with your continued vigilance to produce and provide the best product possible will provide some buffer to this products impact. One really needs to maintain a continued relationship with your clientele for future sales. This really shows the need for increased organisation and unity of our industry! We need to organize and go political no matter how unsavory this sounds to us beekeepers. We need combined unified effort to counter the money and influence of a dedicated corporate structure bent on increasing market share... Mike Griggs President Finger Lakes Beekeeping Association Ithaca, New York IMHO --Realistically however this is another blow against our waining markets as alternative sweeteners vie the same market. At some level it is brought to the lowest common demoninator--we are competing for price. Here in America I often here that the basic motivation to purchase almost anything is "A good price" qualitiy has often gained a secondary level of importance to the bottom line to most folks. If you think it enough you believe it that "More is better, to buy more means cheaper, regardless. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:52:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: A Vegan View of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Check out: http://www.pitt.edu/~hslst7/honey/honey.html Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:41:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: APOLOGY TO ALL! Andy refers us to a web site that has information that verifies that a large Canadian honey distributor (who has subsequently shut down operations) had imported large amounts of honey from China and ship it to the U.S. That was interesting reading. I don't know what the laws are right now, but I assume it's O.K. currently to sell honey from China in the United States because of what I see in the stores here locally. I make it a habit to look up the "honey section" in the grocery stores I visit and look to see what they have, where it is from and whatever is written on the labels. In most of the stores I visit, I see on the labels they say that the honey may be from China, Canada, Argentina, or the U.S., or a blend of some or all. These seem to come from major U.S. honey packers and they say "China" right on the label. If I buy any, I always read the label first, then vote with my pocketbook. My own "personal label" honey keeps getting more and more valuable to me. I may not know everything that's IN my honey, but I do know what's NOT IN it. It's quite a market niche I enjoy. Too bad I only have 5 hives. Best wishes to all for a wonderful holiday season. Layne Westover College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:00:31 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: bees collecting flower Hi Joel/All Joel - you mentioned you had an apiary that collected flour from a nearby bakery - but that only a few of the hives out of a 100 or so did this. This is interesting - I wonder if some bees are more able to sense proteins in things than others? Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:07:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: AFRO Bees in LA? In-Reply-To: <199812171227.EAA03438@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:23 AM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >Andy, just saw on the news, that San Bernadino, had 4 people hurt by >stinging of Africian bees. Any truth >to it. Walt in BarnwellSC Yes it must be true the papers and on-line news sites have reported it as so. Its the way they are doing it that should be of concern to all. Four people were stung, one newspaper reported this as the end of the world as we knew it, and another say the stings were not life threatening but one person did "kick" the dead bee hive in his own yard and was attacked by bees that later turned out to be Africanized. The same would happen to most anyone dumb enough to kick a hive of pure Italian bees this time of the year, but who cares anyway. The most interesting part of these story was a line about how the Vector Control or the people who have taken over the job of killing all bees says they capture some of the bees alive to use in breeding a more kinder gentler African bee. (BS) Does anyone really believe if they could or would "breed themselves right out of a job". Common sense leaves that kind of work to the President. Yesterday MSNBC reported LA INVADED BY KILLER BEES, the same as they did last July, today the Sacrament Bee said the bees were from a ship and did not cross overland and the regulatory officers say that LA has not become a "killer" bee infested area as this is a regular occurrence and they have killed all the bees that have been arriving by sea in LA for years. Which head lines do you think people are going to remember? Check out these and other stories about beekeepers, beekeeping, and bees at http://beenet.com/bnews.htm updated as bee news is made. We don't make the beekeeping news ourselves only report what other are saying about us or telling us. Chow, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:41:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: H-ana (hands on report) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Interested Beekeepers and Friends, Ok, as promised my sample for private analysis of Honey-analog, H-ana, a enzyme inverted cane sugar product, has been received from the Dhampur Invertos Ltd. company who has an sales agent near the port of San Diego on the Left Coast. The letter that came with the sample contains the same objectionable material found on the Dhampur web site http://www.sugarindia.com or at http://www.dsml.com . (This does not in any way represent a Dhampur product that is for sale in the US at this time or is it an endorsement of any future products that may become for sale in the US or even one that I would buy or suggest to anyone else they should buy. At the same kind I can not say it is not sold and used here.) Because my sample is for further testing I can not open it for that OLd Drone 98 cent honey taste test as it would no longer be a valid sample. But not to worry I can tell you what I see and even more interesting can compare it to a sample of that 98 cent honey from Lane's in Oakland, California as both are resting on top of my monitor as I write this. The samples are approximately the same honey color grade, extra light amber. H-ana is the darkest sample of any sugar product I have ever seen and I personally would reject it for feeding bees. I don't mix sugars with honey but at even a small ratio of H-ana added to white honey it would no longer be white in color let alone be honey and would take a real hit in farm value. I can not report that all H-ana sugar syrup is this dark in color but my sample is. The H-ana sample is very clear not unlike highly filtered honey but it does contain an unacceptable amount of what looks like crystallization that would make it unfit for sale as a bee feed or mixed with liquid honey in todays retail or industrial market. Could this product be passed off as honey? I am sure it could, the same as any other HF or HFC sugar syrup which in the early days of HFC in the US I was able to do just that to a group of the largest honey packers and honey importers in a private educational meeting. This sample is darker then the one's I used at this meeting. A few years later I did worse by passing around a sample of HFC in a nice plastic container that contained a full vampire mite strip. The pest trip was impossible to see because of the unique refraction of light of the like plastic materials used for the strip and jar. (This is not the case today as the plastic use in the strips has been changed and so has the amount of chemical they can retain and release.) BTW, some packers and beekeepers actually tried to open the container to taste test the honey but were not allowed to complete that task. Back to H-ana, tomorrow my sample will start its journey to a commercial analytical laboratory for further study it will no longer be packaged as a know product but will be looked at the same as an unknown sample of honey. Because I will no longer have control of the sample I can not say when or what information will be shared with me. But I will be very very surprised if this sample comes back as a Unknown Honey as even I can by just looking at it tell the difference which does not say if it was mixed with pure honey the job would be any easier. Chow, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:41:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Fake Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As an old Dairy Farmer, we always objected to Dairy Queen in the U.S. Most consumers do not know that there is no dairy in Dairy Queen - no cow ever got near their products. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:45:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Alden P. Marshall" Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration! Do we really know that "Honey Analog" is difficult to detect? We better find out! If it is not it is no more of as threat or perhaps less than some of the other sweetener adulterants? If it is more difficult to detect I suggest packers better think about getting on the beekeepers/producers bandwagon. There are a lot of people, perhaps not the majority, who realize the benefits of 'HONEY' that I believe will search out sources they can be most assured of getting the real thing and I suspect it will not be from supermarket shelves. And for the casual purchaser that discovers they are being hoodwinked they will likely go for some of these other pretty colored and variously flavored spreads and syrups. Again if this substance is extremely difficult to detect I think we should consider alerting the public that this stuff does exist and it may be being unknowingly consumed as honey, one might say a reverse publicity campaign? What is the business ethic that enjoys of feels it necessary to deceive the consumer? Does anyone know if the Nat. Honyboard subscribes to this list? I think it would be appropriate to foward alot of this conversation to them, in particular the post of Garth Cambray regarding detection. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 B_Line@ msn.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:14:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Fake Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/18/98 12:50:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, jjbmail@SELWAY.UMT.EDU writes: > > As an old Dairy Farmer, we always objected to Dairy Queen in the U.S. > Most > consumers do not know that there is no dairy in Dairy Queen - no cow ever > got near their products. > OK I'll bite What exactly are their burgers made from? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Fake Honey In-Reply-To: <199812181836.LAA19817@selway.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:14 PM 12/18/1998 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 12/18/98 12:50:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jjbmail@SELWAY.UMT.EDU writes: > >> >> As an old Dairy Farmer, we always objected to Dairy Queen in the U.S. >> Most >> consumers do not know that there is no dairy in Dairy Queen - no cow ever >> got near their products. >> >OK I'll bite >What exactly are their burgers made from? Ok, to be precise, no cow ever got near the dairy part of their "ice cream", cones, etc. > > Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:19:08 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Interlink Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee-Ler's I am certainly glad that I have played a small role in some dialogue that could help US beekeepers. While on my trip and in the National Honey Board booth I was made aware that at the moment there is no good ,reliable, affordable test to detect the H-ana cut batches of honey. Honey/money it's all about money. The Germans and the French are very concerned about this counterfeit honey problem. Now what we must do is take some real action as united voice and push the NHB and the USDA to find a solution and a test procedure that will scare Hell out of honey counterfeiters. Also while we are all talking to the NHB and USDA the sources of origin statement on honey sold in the US should be representational of the blend of the honey. I personally think the statement should state the percentages of each kind of foreign honey. At present the order that the countries is meaningless. Hope to hear the concerns stayed tuned up. Beekeepers in America are in for a rough and rude ride unless they wake up and take charge of their Industry and get the packers under some kind of regulations and controls. At the moment packers are not required to test honey AT ALL except as they see fit to protect their liability and they pay big insurance premiums and so they don't much care about testing for drug contamination or HFCS. Walter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:35:40 -0500 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: APOLOGY TO ALL! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Dec 98, at 23:34, Andy Nachbaur wrote: In a fair and just society any court will allow a rebuttal and another view of the accusations presented, and there are always two sides to every coin. Andy had his opportunity now I would like my turn, in spite of veiled threats to me privately. > I do not make the news and I realize much of what is reported about > beekeepers, beekeeping and honeybees is slanted, with half truths and > mixed with a few big lies thrown together to get you to buy Say it longer, louder and often enough, half truths and downright lies become the truth, that's not reporting, that's propaganda . > The information I reported on Chinese honey imported into Canada and > transhipped to the US is a matter of public record and I believe this not > only harmed the US honey producer but also the Canadian Honey producer > some who may have been so involved to deny it ever happened or to realize > that with the short time the price of honey was high in the US, an > important market for many beekeepers from countries other then Canada, Conjecture, there is no proof. I believe what happened was some packers were quick off the mark and took advantage of higher prices. Is that wrong? > > A few others may have been involved in supplying the Canadian Honey > involved in the blending and do not want to admit it. I did not have to > add anything to this story as the facts are clear for anyone who is > interested enough to read them and has been reported by others with no > different conclusion then what I have found and reported myself. Blending honey, here in Canada possibly has a different meaning than down there. Here we take less than best, blend it with the best to get an acceptable product, most manufacturers do it. Common practice, but not illegal, but not declaring the addition of non- Canadian honey is a punishable offence. > > Much more information can be found on this subject by searching out the > CIA or US Embassy and Station Reports for Honey and Canada and reading > them. I can provide them but I don't want to have everyone thinK I am > anti-Canadian honey producer just because of a small 5-10 thousands metric > tons of Chinese Honey transhipped to the US when it is just 5-10 thousand > metric tons less of honest Canadian Produced Honey that was not shipped in > seceding years or that will be shipped at much lower prices. > Hardly a small amount by any standard, that would take a packer or packers of some size to handle that amount.Strange we can't find the alleged culprit? ''much lower prices' might just be the reason for all this bruh ha ha. You obviously are unaware of what has happened to our Canadian dollar, thanks to the predatory efforts of the currency speculators. "Our dollar now trades at 65 cents US" now it doesn't take a brilliant mind to work out that our exports are now 40% (relatively) cheaper. We are not selling it cheaper, to get rid of it, your dollar just buys more.Don't blame us for this, we can't be blamed for speculating in our own currency! Should we then stand back and not sell to the US because our low dollar allows us, what you consider to be an unfair advantage? In all of this, I hear no critisism of the US packers who supposedly bought this alleged, illegal and adulterated blended honey, and I don't suppose we will. Finally, I would request, stop bashing Canada, we really don't deserve it! ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Beekeeper Jackets. **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:13:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Birdwalk Farms Subject: Re: Fake Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit | >OK I'll bite | >What exactly are their burgers made from? | | Ok, to be precise, no cow ever got near the dairy part of their "ice | cream", cones, etc. | i have long held that most of the fast foods esp the arched one has one hundred percent beef. very big very heavy duty grinders. they pick the steer up by the tail and drop it in whole. Dan & Laura at Birdwalk Farms ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:17:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Birdwalk Farms Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit | the moment packers are not required to test honey AT ALL except as they see | fit to protect their liability and they pay big insurance premiums and so | they don't much care about testing for drug contamination or HFCS. i am not really up-to -date on insurance issues, but might it be possible to attack this through the premiums by showing the insurers the reduction of exposure that could be made with proper, ongoing testing. this would allow differential premiums. Dan & Laura at Birdwalk Farms ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:59:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Newly scanned publication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the suggestion of Dr. Justin Schmidt, and because of the interest shown in one of his pubs that I scanned into the web for practice, I have today posted another one, this time on AHB and pet interactions - I believe you will find JS has a unique, more medical (or veterinary) approach to the problems pet hospitals and pet owners encounter. It can be found through my staff webpage, listed at the bottom of this message, or directly at http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/jsvet96.htm - - if you can't get it to work , e-mail me - John ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Biological Lab. Technician "Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier" Carl Hayden Bee Research Center 2000 E. Allen Road Tucson, Arizona 85719 Office: 520-670-6380, ext.110 Fax: 520-670-6493 Geog. location: 32.27495 N 110.9402 W Lab webpages: http://198.22.133.109/ http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/index.html http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/jephotos.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:29:12 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Possible ways of detecting counterfeit honey Hi All As somebody who knows a little about a lot of things I would like to contribute a few ideas I have for detecting couterfeit honey (anybody with better knowledge please support or destroy the ideas!!) ELISA - mentioned before - is an antibody based technique - would need a rough understanding of the sugar sources, and proccessing techniques and could then detect certain contaminants that may get into the analog. (This system is very sensitive and can detect picograms of substances - including things like estrogen in womans blood, and certain pesticides) PCR based - Polymerase Chain Reaction multiplies extremely small amounts of DNA to measureable quantities. At present a number of such techniques are being developed for detecting Genetically Modified Foodstuffs - including sugar cane - India has developed a few strategies for making GMO sugarcane - I don't know if any are commercialised yet. Basically what one would do is to use special things called primers - a very specific DNA sequence that binds to a specific piece of DNA in a plant or animal - and multiples that DNA up if it is there. If the product is not exposed to heat above about 120C for long periods one should be able to multiply sugarcane DNA out of it and then detect it. At present in South Africa this would cost me about US$10 a sample - at a big lab in the US one would be looking at maximum probably US$5.00 a sample. One would have two edges to the sword - Europe is paranoid about GMO's and has banned temporarily all GMO imports - hence a honey analog which registers as containing GMO sugar would be a no-no. The US likewise requires labelling saying - CONTAINS SUGAR SOURCED FROM GENETICALLY MODIFIED SUGARCANE - in BOLD LETTERS in a font size of about 14 pt - difficult for even the most television anaethetised person to miss!! High Pressure Chromatography/Pressure Assisted Capillary Electrophoresis - both can develop a signature of molecules in something. I am sure an adulterated honey would have a very 'uncontaminated' signal without spikes for things like Xylose, Ribose and other oddball sugars that are not in sugar cane to any large extent, but which are in honey. Some way of detecting caramels - any honey - even unadulterated should not have any caramelized sugars in them - these are much more unhealthy than the wax and pollen that Dhampur mention. Any caramels can place quite a strain on the liver. As Andy mentioned, the stuff is dark - my bet is that dark is caramelized sugars. Just a few ideas. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:17:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: APOLOGY TO ALL! Comments: To: eunice.wonnacott@PEI.SYMPATICO.CA In-Reply-To: <199812181829.KAA10513@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:28 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:20:48 -0400 >From: Eunice Wonnacott >Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > >Subject: Re: APOLOGY TO ALL! >References: <199812171232.HAA24746@smtp27.bellglobal.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Eunice says: >When I first read your post re chinese honey being imported to canada >and then blended with canadian Honey, and shipped to the United States, >I thought it was another "Urban Legend" wsiththe names reversed, as >several years ago the stoory had the US importing chinese honey >directly, to accommodate a shortfall in the american honey crop. Hi Eunice, and Beekeeping Friends, Its true the US has for many years had a shortfall between honey produced and honey consumed. At times it may approach 50% of our total consumption. This is filled by importing honey from producers in many countries including Canada and Mexico which seems normal as we boarder each other. Chinese honey is today along with honey from dozens of countries around the world is being imported into the US for consumption here. Our consumer honey products are required by law to be labeled as country of origin and are. Honey processed for industrial use may not be required to be labeled as to country of origin and much imported honey is purchased directly by food industries that use honey in their own product manufacturing bypassing all regular US honey trade channels such as our packers and stealers. In Canada it seems that national honey production is about equal to national honey consumption yet records seem to indicate that Canada has for a number of years imported honey in excess of its own normal consumption needs and has exported an approximate equal amount of "Canadian" honey to the US...? I am sure this can be explained because of the demand for lower quality honey's in the Canadian food manufacturing but that does not change the look of it. Most of the honey shipped to the US is from countries that actually produce more then they could ever be expected to consume and in some cases this may be the majority of their domestic crop. China is not one of these countries and is looking for US trade dollars regardless of the value of their honey. I no longer know how to classify Canada after being forced to look closer at their stats and because of their involvement with Chinese honey in the past and even in the light that the major player in the Canadian Chinese connection may no longer be in business. > I am saddened and sorry if dishonesty or deception were involved in this. It >would seem, however, if the process is legal, and clearly identified on >the label, then the buyer will vote "with the pocketbook" about >preference. It is too bad that laws about honey and blending could ;not >be as stringent as those involving Maple Syrup. (Canadian Laws, >anyway). I am sad too, but NO one has said what happened in Canada with Chinese honey was against any Law, maybe it is or should be, or do I say its even bad business practice as making a profit is not against the law here but deception and racketeering is if it can be proved. What I have said is that because of the Chinese/Canadian honey experience for me and maybe others I am not easily persuaded at first blush to join with Canadian beekeepers, many whom are accepted as California beekeepers because of their long association with our own industry, in any effort to stop the sale of a high fructose sugar product from India until I know more then what I have seen to this time. I have nothing personal against any Canadian beekeeper or their production or sale of honey, its more a credibility problem they have and because of some Canadians continuing to deny what is now part of the public record but was kept quite here in the US at the time because of a ongoing investigation by our own federal trade authorities. At the same time I am looking for more information and may become as concerned as many are in the near future. At this time H-ana it is just another HF cane sugar syrup like many others that is using some questionable advertising to sell itself which I dislike as much as anyone else but may be in fact as true for all other HF and HFC sugar manufactures but who place more value on the good will of others then to publicly advertise in this objectionable way. The US honey industry had fought a long and costly trade battle with China and had won a substantial limitation on the importation of Chinese honey only to find out after it was all done that a corresponding increase of honey from China was imported into Canada and transhipped to the US as a Canadian product and subverted all legal US efforts to limit the importation of honey from China. Maybe not well know by Canadian or US beekeepers, or even an illegal act in Canada, our good NAFTA partner, but surely not a friendly act towards US beekeepers who had worked so hard to bring fair trade to honey produced in China because it was being sold at a lower price in the US then its real cash value in China which is not permitted by any country under international trade treaty. Chow, the OLd Drone Los Banos, California http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:28:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim and Lois Rich and family Subject: Re: bees in the chicken feeder - much colder now - staying in the hive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris and all - this time of year has been un-seasonably warm here in = the North Carolina mountains until last week. There have been almost no = blooms, though, due to the lack of rain. Last week we got some much = needed rain, and now it is more brisk outside(low 20 degrees Fahrenheit) = - so the bees are staying in their house more now.=20 This brings me to another point: as a new bee keeper, how do you, or = do you check the bees during the winter?=20 Thanks - Tim=20 -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Slade [SMTP:CSlade777@AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:12 PM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: bees in the chicken feeder It sounds as if your son's bees are after protein. Are there any plants yielding pollen close by at this time of year? Were bees carrying = powder from the chicken feeder in their pollen baskets? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:34:33 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: APOLOGY TO ALL! In-Reply-To: <914014295.1019268.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To all involved in this thread. As a beekeeper, and relatively small scale packer, well away from the US/Canada/China controversy, I must say one or two things about this issue. Firstly, due to quality and character differences, I cannot see how Chinese honey could possibly be mis-represented as Canadian to anyone who knows their honey at all. I handle both origins frequently, and to suggest that there could be any confusion between Canadian or USA honey and the Chinese product would, I believe, be quite offensive to all North American producers. Even if the Canadian honey had been cut with a relatively small (say 20%) of Chinese product it would be starkly obvious to all concerned. EVERY sample of Chinese honey I have ever had has had, to a greater or lesser extent, had a very distinctive smell and taste. It is as if it was slighly perfumed, yet it is unpleasant, even rank at times. All standard quality North American honeys I have handled have been of far superior quality to the Chinese, and subtle untainted flavours are normal. IF this event occurred, which COULD be true, it could ONLY have been done with the conivance of the US customer. No packer I know of could possibly fail to notice the difference, so it can only have been a ruse on behalf of all parties to circumvent US regulations. In which case don't blame the Canadians alone, as possibly the Chinese and certainly the Americans would also have been part of the problem. I currently have some Chinese Acacia in stock for one particular client in SE England. We normally use European and stock it all the time, but this client wanted Chinese. It is supposed to be the best honey available out of China. It is so inferior to the European equivalent as to be difficult to identify as the same floral source, and as soon as it is heated the smell which it gives off is most unpleasant (to me). The reason this client wanted it is its price, about 60% that of European. In the US you call this plant Black Locust, and for a mild honey lover it is one of the finest you can get, but not so the Chinese product. Once you go down in quality to the standard ELA, then this perfumed characteristic becomes even stronger. Apart from at a consumer level, who often knows little better, this honey could not possibly pass through a packers system unnoticed in the belief it was Canadian. In my opinion Chinese honey is damaging to our consumer markets. They (the public) may not know what they are buying, but for sure they know if they enjoy what they are eating or not. If they do not enjoy it greatly they eat it more slowly (if at all), and they usually do not buy more until what they already have has been used up. Education towards decent quality honey is near impossible given the lack of cash most producers are suffering from, and the temptation to pack the very cheap Chinese product will always be present so long as retailers (primarily supermarkets) have price point as their No.1 amongst the criteria by which they select the standard lines they sell. An intractible problem which is almost impossible to resolve, and will probably not be until the Chinese become more prosperous and begin to use up much of their production on their domestic market. Finally to end on a sad note. I have just been offered Canadian white honey at #UK 1100 per tonne, delivered home. Allowing for EU import duty, shipping, etc., this must mean a hopelessly low price to the producer. Whilst I must remain competitive and therefore must buy at, or below if possible, current market levels I would much prefer to see Canadian and US product trading at 30 or 40% above these levels, which would be a far more accurate relection of its place in the quality heirarchy. Then there is a reasonable living in it for us all, and we avoid the boom and bust situation which has afflicted much of the honey producing trade in recent years. Kind regards to all Murray ps, I am doing a little digging on this honey analog issue, and hope to have some information soon. Early indications are that it is a bit of a non-issue as it will be relatively easy to detect, and punishments potentially severe. Andy's assertion that it is no different an issue from the temptation to cut with commercially available syrups is pretty accurate it seems, and there will probably be no great price advantage in any case to encourage it. Feeding syrups to boost crop, in Britain at least, is more of a problem than this stuff is likely to be. -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:26:30 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration! In-Reply-To: <18090658235110@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'll excerpt a message I just got in a general distribution message from an authoritative source, leaving out names: --- recently informed me that she is very pleased to report that we can differentiate real honey from the honey analog. The honey analog that was handed over to her at the meeting was analysed and it has a carbon SIRA value of -11.66. If the analog is mixed with pure honey it would result in a lower Carbon Sira than the normal -23.5. It would appear that the analog is not as undetectable as it's manufacturers are claiming... --- I imagine you'll get more detail as time goes by. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:47:18 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: - Honey adulteration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen wrote that the information passed on to him indicated that this Hon= ey analog could detected. I have been checking in Australia and the initial information seems that = we are confident that our analytical methods will pick it up. One person= in Australia has seen what he asumed was this product in honey on sale = in Singapore and said that just looking at it he was able to pick that = it was not pure honey. So it seems not all doom and gloom but it was timely wake up call. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 23:14:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Possible ways of detecting counterfeit honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Garth and All: >ELISA - mentioned before - is an antibody based technique Your previous post explained the ELISA technique quite well, and it sounded most appropriate to the problem. I am curious, in the light of Murray McGregor's comments about the problem of beekeepers feeding sugars to bee's during the honey producing season as to whether the ELISA technique, would in your opinion, still detect small quantities of corn or sugar cane protein AFTER those had been "through the bee" (through many actually considering how much they pass it around if radioisotope trace studies are any indication). And would you need one antibody for a protein unique to corn, one for a protein unique to sugar cane, one for a protein unique to sugar beet...? If so, could you test for all these antibodies still in ONE test? (I am thinking about the cost figures you mentioned). Would there be a problem of similar proteins in nectar producing plants giving false positives? (Perhaps that would be difficult for you to predict.) Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 23:20:42 -0500 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: APOLOGY TO SOME! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 19 Dec 98, at 10:34, Murray McGregor wrote: > Firstly, due to quality and character differences, I cannot see how > Chinese honey could possibly be mis-represented as Canadian to anyone who > knows their honey at all. I handle both origins frequently, and to suggest > that there could be any confusion between Canadian or USA honey and the > Chinese product would, I believe, be quite offensive to all North American > producers. Even if the Canadian honey had been cut with a relatively small > (say 20%) of Chinese product it would be starkly obvious to all concerned. > EVERY sample of Chinese honey I have ever had has had, to a greater or > lesser extent, had a very distinctive smell and taste. It is as if it was > slighly perfumed, yet it is unpleasant, even rank at times. All standard > quality North American honeys I have handled have been of far superior > quality to the Chinese, and subtle untainted flavours are normal. Hooray, some sense at last! We Canadians produce some of the best honey around, why would we want to degrade it with an adulterated product? It hardly makes sense to me. > Finally to end on a sad note. I have just been offered Canadian white > honey at #UK 1100 per tonne, delivered home. Allowing for EU import duty, > shipping, etc., this must mean a hopelessly low price to the producer. > Whilst I must remain competitive and therefore must buy at, or below if > possible, current market levels I would much prefer to see Canadian and US > product trading at 30 or 40% above these levels, which would be a far more > accurate relection of its place in the quality heirarchy. Then there is a Fine to be sympathetic to our problem, but I feel some explaination is necessary. We haven't cut our prices, at least not by much. The problem has been created by our low dollar. We have suffered in the recent past with currency raiders hammering our dollar down to an unheard of 65 cents US. In effect reducing our prices by approx 40%. Foreign speculators are making money from our poor long suffering dollar. Approx 20 years ago our dollar was worth 95 cents US and $1.95 bought 1 pound Sterling, now that same cost is $2.56 to the pound. Is it any wonder our exports are so cheap when paid for in foreign currency, and this is the reason for the current round of US trade complaints. From salmon and soft wood in BC, wheat and hogs in the Prairies, steel from Ontario, clothing and material from Quebec, cod and lobsters from the Martimes. First hammer the dollar down then complain bitterly and unfairly if our prices are cheaper. In all our this our basic standard of living is still the same. While our 'friend' in California is complaining of our shipping cheap imported honey I firmly believe that our low dollar and misread statistics are to blame. I admit we (Canadians) imported Chinese honey, but don't think his stats showed the figures of honey rejected because of adulteration. So where do we go from here? I for one am going to stop banging my head against a brick wall, all it's done is to give me a headache. There is obviously no way I'm going to convice our friend in California that his assumptions are incorrect. So all I can do is drop it, but request right thinking people to ignore the propaganda, and pray honey isn't added to the trade wars. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Beekeeper Jackets. **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:19:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Possible ways of detecting counterfeit honey In-Reply-To: <914129763.1016718.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Further to my previous assertion about the honey analog being detectable. Allen Dick has already touched on this subject, and correctly indicated that a tried and tested method of detecting this kind of adulteration exists and is already widely used. Allen mentioned figures, and although I cannot give these kind of statistics, I can confirm that the carbon isotope test is used to detect the presence of sugars of non-nectar origins. As he mentioned, they can assay the carbon isotopes and come up with a balance between proper honey and non nectar sugars. A full chromatography test will then be required to determine exactly what the nature of the adulteration sugars is. The isotope test used to be expensive, but specialist labs now exist, at least in the UK and Europe (and I would be very surprised if North America did not have some), who can perform this test quickly and at relatively reasonable cost. (An aside, which also impinges on the Chinese/Canadian honey debate, is the product specification details required for supermarkets here in the UK. We recently were audited for UK Safeway and in their required information was a section on imported honey. They specifically asked if any Chinese product was being used and, if so, you have to produce the test results from a carbon isotope test on each container (approx 20 tonnes). Another requires the test to be carried out on every single packing batch, again if any Chinese (or Vietnamese in this case) honey is used, and require a full breakdown of the origins of honey used in blends. The end labelling simply states 'product of more than one country' but the retailer wanted to know more before putting their name to it. In our case it was not applicable as we were being audited for single floral source specialities none of which were Chinese, but it was interesting to see the levels of suspicion already out there surrounding this honey.) This alledged fake honey will undoubtedly be of non nectar origin and as such will be very obvious in any test of this nature. Going back to Andy's initial response, it really does seem to be an old trick dressed up in new clothes, and the assay techniques in the developed world are such that anyone cutting with this product certainly won't get away with it for long. Someone asked about whether heavy feeding for crop could be detected, and by the isotope test, backed up by other tests after the initial suspicious result, the answer is definitely yes. An example which comes to mind was in Germany back in the 80's where it was shown that 64% in one case, and 56% in another, of the sugars in a honey sample were shown to be of non nectar origin, and was ultimately traced back to heavy sugar feeding in summer by the beekeeper/supplier ( who was in Europe, not China or anywhere like that). The shipments were, of course, rejected but must have ended up somewhere. It is a long time ago now that this happened, and the sugar price in the EU is now such that the viability of such a course of action would be very doubtful, in fact standard Chinese honey now sometimes trades at less per tonne than sugar. Hope this clarifies one or two queries. Kind regards Murray -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:12:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: Possible ways of detecting counterfeit honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Garth An: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Datum: Samstag, 19. Dezember 1998 22:06 Betreff: Possible ways of detecting counterfeit honey >Hi All > >As somebody who knows a little about a lot of things I would like to >contribute a few ideas I have for detecting couterfeit honey (anybody >with better knowledge please support or destroy the ideas!!) Dear Mr. Garth, I read your email with some interest. I missed one way of detecting and may be the easiest one to find out foreign honey. - That's pollen analysis. It is an excellent method to detect pollen not common in the flora where the honey should come from. Also one can detect honey with more or less syrup in it, because the lack of pollen. Unfortunately you need a special equipment (microscope for example) and a lot of know how about this subject. But surely there are some experts in the US who can help if there is some doubt about a honey source and declaration. Sincerely Reimund ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Beekeeper in Germany (Bavaria) Queen Rearing of Carniolan Bees Insemination Station ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 500 North, 110 East ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:28:32 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Pollenamound (not in the honey-analog) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " absence of impurities in the form of pollen makes the Honey Analog a healthier amp" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! source: http://www.sugarindia.com/sp_honey.html In opposition to what Dhampur Sugar Company thinks and SAY about it. IN THE NETHERLANDS; if a honey will be called monofloral the amount of that specific pollen must have a special number. The numbers of the pollen amount depend on the kind of the nectarsource. Ex.: kastanje Aesculus hippocastans > 90 % phacelia Phacelia tanacetifolia > 90 % koolzaad Brassica napus > 45 % klaver Melilotus spp. > 45 % acacia Robinia pseudoacacia > 20 % Q.: - are there international rules for this?? - URL????? thanks in advance, jan t. -- ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ----------------51.55 N, 4.28 E---------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 23:35:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Prophets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I just read your posting of 7 days ago - my apologies! Of course I AGREE with you totally. Many bees would be alive today if socalled "beekeepers" had not believed "If 10% fluvalinate in Apistan strips works, than higher percentages of fluvalinate would work BETTER". AFTER THEY KILLED THEIR BEES, they blamed it on resistant mites, Apistan doesn't work, and a dozen other reasons. Most people would not go to a carpenter or banker to have their appendix removed. By the same token, why trust the proper care of honey bee diseases to anyone other than a trained honey bee research scientist? Beltsville Research Laboratory is just 15 miles from my home and I have witnessed how hard those scientists work with dedication, and regretfully, for small pay. Maybe the continual loss of honey bees will so severely damage the pollination of crops desired by humans, that bees will be looked upon with favor rather than fright caused by Hollywood "killer bee" movies. Keep up the good work! and Have a Fine Holiday George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:53:38 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: Possible ways of detecting counterfeit honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" wrote: > That's pollen analysis. It > is an excellent method to detect pollen not common in the flora where the > honey should come from. Also one can detect honey with more or less syrup in > it, because the lack of pollen. Some packer filter ALL the pollen out, to avoid crystallization. I examen a pollen preparat of a Califonian citrus-honey NO POLLEN AT ALL ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ----------------51.55 N, 4.28 E---------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:03:41 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MR GA CAMBRAY Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: ELISA and alternatives for detecting honey adulteration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Stan/All Stan, you referred to a post I made earlier where I suggested using the ELISA technique (used in medical diagnostics to detect small amounts of certain chemicals) and asked a few questions. The first was whether the ELISA would pick up corn or sugarbeet/cane proteins after going through a bee: I would suspect it should - anything that survives the proccessing steps should be able to survive exposure to a bees stomach. This may however bee a problem - this is where the PCR (Polymerase Chain REaction - DNA amplification technique) might be better - the latest SIGMA manual brags that they can amplify a product to workable amounts from as little as five pieces of original DNA (billions of times amplification) - if this is so it would be possible to run diluted honey through a DNA extraction column (QUIAgen makes quite cheap ones - here they cost about US$0.50 if one buys in bulk I think). One would almost certainly be able to get some DNA out of this - and I am sure one could pick up sugarcane ( it is highly unlikely in Northern Beekeeping conditions that bees will be bringing in any nectar from a wind pollinated sugarcane - there is almost no concievable way, from what I know about sugarcane pollination, that bees would bring pollen from this plant. Hence primers specific for a specific piece of DNA in the sugarcane DNA would definitely allow for identification of contaminant sugar. I suspect that for corn it would be similar, and slightly more problematic for beet - as it is an insect pollinated plant and may have close relatives that are similar? As for the multi-antibodies ELISA - that should not be a problem. I gather the ELISA system was originally developed using antibodies derived from hyper immunised goats and other similar animals. These antibodies were actually not all identical - but the system worked. It would concievable work as well for honey. Would other proteins in nectar give rise to false positives - probably yes - although sugarcane is very far evolutionarily from most insect pollinated plants, as is corn, sugarbeet would be difficult here. Once could most probably use antibodies raised agains one of the proteins, or a pice thereof in the photosynthetic pathway - the common difference between sugar cane and corn and the rest of the things insects could get their sugar from is that the two grasses are C4 plants, using a different photosynthetic pathway to the predominantly C3 plants and CAM succulents that we derive out honey from. The C4 pathway would have some very distinctive proteins that antibodies could be raised against. There may be a lot of potential in these concepts, both ELISA and PCR based, I suspect PCR would be easier to get of the ground as well as more specific. Many commercial HIV detection systems are switching from ELISA to PCR however, which means in theory that a lot of very expensive automated ELISA machines will be comming on the secondhand instrument market - a factor in favour of low budget ELISA testing of food products? Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:55:02 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Apologies, accusations, and vieled threats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This apology thread seems to be getting pretty nasty. Why is it, when things go wrong we have to find SOMEONE to blame. We're all guilty of it (sorry Ron). Maybe it just makes us feel better to kick a dog who won't bite back. Let's think about the real problem with the industry. I only know how things are in this country, but I assume agriculture is the same world-wide. Woodie Guthrie said it better than I can. He was there when the problem was more obvious than now. "The farmer is the man, the farmer is the man, who holds all the credit until fall Then they take him by the hand, and they lead him from his land And the taxes on the farmer feed us all." I believe our formost problem, in the honey industry, is low honey prices. The price we receive for bulk honey has dropped $.40/lb in the last two years. When the price went up to $1.00/lb for white honey, we all had $$ in our pockets at the end of the year. Yeah, the cost of everything we use went up too. Queens went to $10, Foundation and woodenware up significantly, etc. That was ok with me. I was willing to share. Give everybody a slice of the pie. We even had $$ to pay the lawyers to fight the dumping of cheap Chinese honey. The cost of Apistan didn't seem too bad, and even the $$ we have to pay the National Honey Promotion Board didn't stick in the gut so bad. Now that the price we get for bulk honey has fallen to $.60/lb or less, things have changed. Not so much $$ in your pockets this year, eh mate? Doesn't seem like the price of our supplies has gone down, has it?? The assesment we pay to the NHPB is approaching 2% of our gross. Labor and insurance costs are out of sight. And now Bayer has a new anti-varroa strip they'll put on the market if enough of us are willing to pay their higher price(backwards over the barrell again). I checked the price of honey in the local grocery stores yesterday. Highest prices for jarred honey I've ever seen. Who's getting all the $$$. Desperate people do desperate things. If there was enough profit to be made, we would have enough $$$ to solve our problems, or at least work on them intellegently. We wouldn't feel it necessary to blame the guy on the other side of the community for our problems. Let's put our heads together, and not bang them together. Woodie would certainly be disappointed! Hoping to go in a positive direction soon. Michael Palmer St. Albans, Vermont, USA 45n 73w ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:51:25 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: aweinert Subject: Wood working equipment for making frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have a friend who would like to make frames for full depth supers. His questions is Is there any one who makes equipment specifically for this purpose or do the big manufacturers make the machinery themselves? We would appreciate any responses to this question as he has not been able to locate any specific equipment for this job. Thanks in anticipation Andrew Weinert Atherton, Tropical North Queensland Australia 17.17 Degrees South, 145.30 Degrees East ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:54:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: petty Subject: raison d'etre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No matter to what extent their own plans have been thwarted, they will none the less do what they know to be their profound and primitive duty. And as to what this duty may be they are never in doubt. It is written in their tongue, in their mouth, over every organ of their body, that they are in this world to make honey; as it is written in our eyes, our ears, our nerves, in every lobe of our brain, that we have been created to think, to reason, to understand, to improve our sense of justice, our knowledge, to cultivate our soul. The bees know not who will eat the honey they harvest, as we know not who shall profit by the spiritual treasure we gather. As they go from flower to flower absorbing nectar beyond what they or their hive will need, so let us go from thought to thought, forever seeking the truth. And let the knowledge that this is our duty quicken the zeal, the ardor and purity with which our soul turns to the light. THE END from The Children's Life of the Bee by Maurice Maeterlinck (1919) MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:10:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: Season's Greetings Comments: To: IBRA Newsletter List Comments: cc: IBRA News List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT All of us IBRA headquarters wish you a happy Christmas and a peaceful New Year. We hope that 1999 will be successful for beekeepers everywhere and that IBRA will continue to provide all those interested in bees with the information they need. The office will be closed for the holidays and stocktaking from the afternoon of 22 December until the 6 January 1999. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:03:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Bee Forage/Invasive plants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Fine gardening magazine (Taunton Press) has a good article with charts of invasive plants online. It shows what state the plant is invasive in. Worth a looksee when considering what to plant as forage. The URL is below http://www.taunton.com/fg/features/plants/invasive/2.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:10:22 -0500 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Apologies, accusations, and vieled threats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 20 Dec 98, at 9:55, Michael Palmer wrote: > checked the price of honey in the local grocery stores yesterday. Highest > prices for jarred honey I've ever seen. Who's getting all the $$$. > Desperate people do desperate things. If there was enough profit to be > made, we would have enough $$$ to solve our problems, or at least work on > them intellegently. We wouldn't feel it necessary to blame the guy on the > other side of the community for our problems. Our's must be the only business where the middle man sets the buying price. Normally the seller sets the price, but in our case we are told what price 'they' will pay, regardless of quality or quantity. Until that trend is changed low prices will be the norm. Perhaps the time has come to cut the ties to 'them'. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Beekeeper Jackets. **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:35:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: Honey Adulteration, Honey Analog, Bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <199812151419.JAA23475@mx2.mail.interlog.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Bee Folks; Have you ever had someone say to you that they can get honey at so and so's for less than you are selling. My answer (most often politely) is "Why not purchase your honey there". While I have only 9 hives, I always run out of honey before I run out of customers. I plan to expand my apiary only as big as is necessary to supply my market. I live in an area with many tourists, especially in the fall when the leaves are turning colour (and luckily the honey is ready for sale). While much of my market is walk-by, an increasing portion is people who return because, as they say; "Your honey is the best I have ever tasted". Some of these people drive 50-100 Km. to buy my honey, while others (not yet loyal to me) are looking for 'NATURAL' honey and although their understanding of NATURAL varies, are pleased to buy directly from a beekeeper. I don't want to sell my honey, for lower prices, to stores, packers or bargain hunters. I encourage my return customers to bring containers that I will fill at a much lower price than my normal retail ($6.75/Kg retail, $4.40/ Kg in the customer's container). I will fill any size container for return customers, and have one faithful lady who returns twice a year to have her 500 gm bottle refilled. Even though filling a small container could be seen as a waste of time, the smile on her face is worth the trouble. I guess my message to you is; develop the market you wish to serve, and you will develop a loyal clientel for your quality products. Cheap imitations will not attract them away. Seasons Greetings Bob Darrell RR#2 Caledon, Ontario Canada L0N1C0 44N 80W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:44:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Guy F. Miller" Subject: Metric vs English Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just to lighten things up a bit - I heard a fellow say that he thought that it was a good thing we in America never adopted the metric system. He said the whole thing was just too vague and inaccurate. "I mean, really, a kilometer is a 'little less' than a mile. A kilogram is 'about' 2 and a half pounds. How can we deal with a system like that?" Hope this helps. Guy F. Miller "Start every day with a smile, and get it over with." Charlottesville VA W.C. Fields