From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:13:28 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26506 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09782 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171613.MAA09782@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:13:22 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9812D" To: adamf@TITAN.METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 143024 Lines: 3207 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:43:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiservices Subject: Adulteration - A complete 40-page report with photos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The English translation of an immense undertaking by the Syndicate of French Professional Beekeepers is available at the following address: http://www.beekeeping.com/index_us.htm then click on: "HONEY ADULTERATION=A0 - The SPMF's full report - 40 pages and 5 photos i= n 6 files" An interesting contribution to the "Honey-analog" debate. Any comments will be most welcome. Gilles Ratia Webmaster of the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" gilles.ratia@apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:01:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Viktor E Sten Subject: Re: Wood working equipment for making frames Comments: To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi What the big manufacturers do I do not know, but for my own use I make all my frames using a 10" tablesaw as the only equipment. It is not all that difficult but if you are not proficient in using the saw better get some training first. The main thing here is safety, you have to make every setup so your fingers can not get in the sawblade, one mistake and you have less fingers than you started up with. Happy holydays Viktor in Hawkesbury, Ontario where the hives are dusted with snow. >I have a friend who would like to make frames for full depth >supers. > >His questions is > >Is there any one who makes equipment specifically for this purpose >or do the big manufacturers make the machinery themselves? > >We would appreciate any responses to this question as he has not >been able to locate any specific equipment for this job. > >Thanks in anticipation > > > > >Andrew Weinert >Atherton, Tropical North Queensland >Australia >17.17 Degrees South, 145.30 Degrees East > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:53:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Safer than Honey? (From Garry Libby) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by libbee@EMAIL.MSN.COM to the BEE-L list at CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove non-bee related material. ------------------ Original message (ID=3B631A) (82 lines) -------------------- From: "Garry Libby" To: Subject: FW: Safer than Honey? Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:45:36 -0500 Importance: Normal Return-Path: libbee@email.msn.com Dear Listers, Here is the response I received from Wholesale Nutrition. Would anyone on the list have a copy of the FDA article that He mentions? If so maybe You could post it? Garry Libby Boston, USA -----Original Message----- From: wn@nutri.com [mailto:wn@nutri.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:55 PM To: GlibBEE@aol.com Subject: Re: Safer than Honey? At 07:00 PM 12/15/1998 EST, you wrote: >>>>>"Ascorbate Honey is cleaner and safer than bee honey and has no possibility >of containing adulterants, botulism spores, drugs, pesticides, allergens, >wax, bee remains, bee feces, or other "insolubles" from the hive. (And who >knows what "solubles" have been introduced by the bees.) Ascorbate honey is >OK even for infants!!"<<<<< > >Hello, > Do You have any proof to back up that statement? Also, how does feces get >into honey?? > >Thank You, >Garry Libby >GlibBEE@aol.com ____________________________________ Dear Mr Libby, Call the FDA and get a copy of pages 12 and 13 of the Sept 1979 "FDA Consumer", a monthly periodical by the FDA. The article is called, "Honey: Making Sure It's Pure", written by Roger W. Miller, then editor of the magazine. Sincerely, Oscar Falconi Wholesale Nutrition _____________________________________ .... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:58:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Hough Subject: Prosecution of bogus "honey" producer In response to the query about the "FDA Consumer" magazine article, I searched the FDA website to see if the info was there.... it wasn't, but I did find an interesting story about the successful 1997 prosecution (and jailing) of two producers of bogus "honey" and syrups from Mississippi. "They" do get the bad guys once in a while! I'm sure that the jail time doesn't even come close to balancing out the economic damage they caused, however. Check out http://www.fda.gov/fdac/departs/1997/397_irs.html Rick Hough rshough@tasc.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:23:30 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 19 Dec 1998 to 20 Dec 1998 In-Reply-To: <914216523.113665.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <914216523.113665.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Automatic digest processor writes >The isotope test used to be expensive, but specialist labs now exist, at >least in the UK and Europe (and I would be very surprised if North >America did not have some), who can perform this test quickly and at >relatively reasonable cost. As far I am aware, (tell me if i'm wrong Murray) the testing of imported honey into the UK is paid for by the importer. This is probably why such a low rate of testing is carried out here. -- Tom Speight ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:04:17 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Metric vs English In-Reply-To: <04162373410567@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Just to lighten things up a bit - I heard a fellow say that he > thought that it was a good thing we in America never adopted the > metric system. He said the whole thing was just too vague and > inaccurate. "I mean, really, a kilometer is a 'little less' than a > mile. A kilogram is 'about' 2 and a half pounds. How can we deal > with a system like that?" I've heard that americans are approaching the metric system inch by inch... \vov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:27:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Wood working equipment for making frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by paul@EISUSA.COM to the BEE-L list at CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. ------------------ Original message (ID=0EEB93) (76 lines) -------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:45:17 -0800 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Nicholson Subject: Re: Wood working equipment for making frames You can do wonderful things with a table saw, but the setup is time consuming, as the blade hieghts, fence positions, length stops, etc., must be adjusted for each different cut. A few simple jigs and be used with a table saw to make setup and material positioning easier. A commercial manufacturer will have several pieces of equipment that can be set up for individual operations. For example, rather than making many passes to cut the dovetails in the boxes, a machine with a long shaft with multiple cutters can used to cut dovetails in a single pass.. Commercial woodworking machinery can be easily configured to make hive components. Compared to fine cabinetry, making behives is fairly simple. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:45:10 -0800 Reply-To: ryarnell@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Re: Wood working equipment for making frames Paul wrote, and its true: >You can do wonderful things with a table saw, but the setup is time >consuming, as the blade hieghts, fence positions, length stops, etc., must >be adjusted for each different cut. A few simple jigs and be used with a >table saw to make setup and material positioning easier. However, there is no reason one can't manage efficiently using one machine. First, pick out the best sample of each part you want to copy. Paint them a bright, unmistakable color so you won't accidentally put them in a frame. Then, figure out how many frames you need to make over the winter. Reconcile yourself to making the same cut over and over and over again. Do make jigs; do install stops; just don't change a setup until all the pieces you need for the year have been made. Paint the jigs a different unmistakeable color and mark clearly what they're for. In the end, you'll find that the setup time, amortized over the pieces you make, is reasonable and not much more than the transport time in a commercial shop. One other thing: be sure you have cartons to store the pieces which are in progress. Nothing slows the whole process down like having to sort a pile of mixed pieces. Light up the wood stove and enjoy the smell of pine and smoke. -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:44:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Metric v English and frame making Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A chap walked into my office today to ask whether he was right that a kilometre was about five eighths of a mile. Without thinking I told him to multiply miles by 1.60934 to convert to km. I have a very sad brain. I can recall idiotic facts like that but can't find the pencil I put down 10 seconds ago. In England you can go to a shop and ask for 2.4 metres of 4 inch by 2 inch timber. When using the timber you use either the metric or the imperial side of the ruler to give you in figures the measurement you had already decided upon by rule of thumb. The figures are only useful for recording the measurements so they can be reproduced. I don't often need to make the same item twice so there's little point. A thumb is about an inch; two fingers spread make about 3 inches; a hand is 4 inches (as used for measuring the height of horses); 4 fingers spread is 6 inches; a hand span is 9 inches; my feet are a foot long; elbow to fingertip is 18 inches and my outstretched arms are a fathom. A worker bee is half an inch long; a queen three quarters. Worker cells come at 5 to an inch, drone cells are 4. The whole of nature seems to be designed around English measurements (or vice versa). The metric system is an artificial abomination imposed on us by Napoleon and his spiritual descendants and should be resisted. Some conversions are easy to remember: litres to and from English (not US) gallons are achieved by using the figures 22 or 45 which, as a shooter, I have in my mind. It is many years since I made frames. I used unplaned 2 x 1 pine in 2.4 metre lengths. As I recall I achieved 17 complete frames from 2 lengths with very little waste except sawdust. I used a Black and Decker circular saw drill attachment mounted upside down on a home made saw bench and fence and still have all my fingers. The frames were rougher than factory made but the bees don't mind. I don't remember that they were appreciably cheaper than factory made. They don't have to be rough. A friend who was retiring from beekeeping as he was about 80 and had to look after his sick wife gave me the unassembled frames he had made. Factory frames were poor by comparison. He also gave me his apiary of Cottager hives that he made from designs in his father's bee book (vintage about 1906). I still use the hives. Nothing ever sticks in them. The bees don't glue everything together with propolis or brace comb. The reason is that they were made accurately. I don't know what equipment he used but everything was in a very small garden shed. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:27:20 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Converting a Hydrometer to a Honey Moisture Meter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A beekeeper friend just gave me a honeymead hydrometer for Christmas. Can anyone please help me with the calculations/calibrations/conversion table needed so I can also use it as a honey moisture meter? Joel Feliciano Magsaysay Landline & Telefax: (063) 046-865-0018 Cellphone & Cellfax: IDD: 063-912-318-7517 DDD: 0912-318-7517 Mail to: P. O. Box #1, 4118 Silang, Cavite, Philippines Home Apiary: ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS #8 ILOG MARIA KM. 47, AGUINALDO HIGHWAY LALAAN 1, SILANG, CAVITE PHILIPPINES ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:01:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lars Hansen Subject: Black-tea-test for Chinese honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. Sorry, but I have not had time to follow the thread about chinese honey = all the way, so You may have heard this before. The Danish Beekeeping = As. has just published an article about real but very poor chinese = honey. I wonder if You all know about it? Cut VERY short, it states that = pure or partly chinese honey is often known to hold a large amount of = cells strongly suggesting, that the honey was harvested much too early = and therefore fermented.(I wonder, if they stop the fermentation just by = heat or by chemicals as well??) It also says, that this poor honey is = often so poorly handled in old and rusty tanks, that You can find out = where it came from, just by putting some honey in Your tea! The contents = of iron will make the tea almost black! According to the article, some amount of honey packed in Denmark was = withdrawn from the Finnish market because of this. A cheap, easy and = visible test, eh? The article partly refers to a Swiss article, again referring to a = French article... The Internet is a good place for romours to spread - = I guess that goes for truth, too! =20 Lars Hansen lh@get2net.dk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:00:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: Re: cutting the ties with the middle man MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From David Eyre: "Normally the seller sets the price, but in our case we are told what price 'they' will pay, regardless of quality or quantity. Until that trend is changed low prices will be the norm. Perhaps the time has come to cut the ties to 'them'." Spot on David. I have been following this thread and it sounds like (long term) this is the solution. I was involved in a retailing cooperative (nothing to do with bees) some years ago and it was a very efficient way of doing business. In England we have the 'First Honey Co-operative' which is a co-operative of beekeepers that market their honey themselves. For those who are interested perhaps it would be worth contacting them to see how they are doing it. (I only have a snail mail address and phone number I'm afraid) First Honey Co-operative 17 Warton Lane, Austrey, Atherstone, Warkwickshire CV9 3EJ Tel/Fax: 01827 830 955 All the best and wishing everyone a Happy Christmas and proseropus New Year. Madeleine Pym, London. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:44:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Apologies, accusations and veiled threats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The answer is simple. Cut out the middle man or become a middle man yourself. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: George Imirie's update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings.. George Imirie's latest update located here: http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee Don't forget to register your e-mail address ,located at the bottom of my front page. Herb Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:19:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "J.F. Hensler" Subject: Re: Apologies, accusations, and vieled threats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Eyre wrote: Our's must be the only business where the middle man sets the buying price. Normally the seller sets the price, but in our case we are told what price 'they' will pay, regardless of quality or quantity. Until that trend is changed low prices will be the norm. Perhaps the time has come to cut the ties to 'them'. Yo David: Unless you are including agriculture in general, artists, authors, and = now that portion of the medical community (US) operating under the HMO = approach, etc., under your heading of "Our's," I suggest you go back and = retake Economics 101 one more time. Please don't misinterpret what I am attempting to say. You have a good = point in that the honey business is being attacked from a new front. = However, it's known as the free enterprise system. Like all those who = have gone before, we will either have to learn to beat the competition = or move on to another line of work. See your fellow countryman Bob Darrell's post on this same subject. I = realize this is out of the realm of the large commerical beekeeper, but = the theory is the same... Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN=20 Newport, Wash. http://www.povn.com/rock ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David W Oakes Subject: Cottager Hive MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does someone know where to find information about the Cottager Hive? Thanks, Dave in Indiana-where winter has arrived!! Happy Hollidays to all !! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:28:25 -0000 Reply-To: padraigc@indigo.ie Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Cunningham Subject: Season's Greetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all Beekeepers, May you have peace and joy at Christmas and in 1999 health, happiness and honey. I enjoy the Internet bee discussions. They are both interesting and informative. A special word of thanks to the contributors. Very best wishes John Cunningham. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:06:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bruce Thompson Subject: MERRY CHRISTMAS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit TO ALL BEEKEEPERS, MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR. MAY YOU KNOW THE WONDERFUL LOVE AND PEACE OF JESUS IN THE NEW YEAR , AND MAY YOUR BEES PRODUCE MUCH HONEY. SINCERELY BRUCE THOMPSON EGG HARBOR NJ WHERE WINTER HAS ALSO ARRIVED BTHOM60041@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:42:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re Bumble-bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Olda and Beefriends Olda Vancata writes: >Can you please tell me the lithaunian term for word 'bumble bee'? >Do you possibly know the translation i estonian and latvian? A bumble bee has two synonyms in Lithuanian: 1. "Samane"-derived of "samanos" i.e. moss (living in moss) 2. "Kamane"- derived of "kamanos" i.e. bridle (pollen on legs like a bridle ). As concerns other languages, maybe, a Travlang will help you: http://www.cusd.claremont.edu/~tkroll/EastEur/ http://www.travlang.com/ Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Sincerely Yours Rimantas Zujus e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www.lei.lt 55 North, 24 East ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:57:19 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: CUTTING OUT THE MIDDLEMAN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems that the honey buyers in the US can get all the Cheap honey they want in Argentina. Nice honey under $.60/lb delivered to the US. Wish I could pay Argentinian wages. Windfall profits for the big packer, bankruptcy for us. Thanks bubba Clinton and all your rich public "servants." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dale Q. Marmaduke" Subject: Profit per hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beekeepers, I kindly ask what the average profit per hive would be for a keeper of 100 hives without pollination service. How much time does a experienced (for money and fun) beekeeper spend on each hive in a year with about 100 hives. I currently have ten hives and waste time with extra visits and hobby play. It looks like I would earn about $23 a hive for honey sales after costs for meds, foundation, bees, and queens. (excluding equipment, paint, replacement, travel, extractor) But the earnings per hour might be less than $5. I am slow at finding a queen and have low honey yields. ( I hope to improve as I get ready for my third year.) Reguardless, I enjoy the activity, but would like to know how much one could expect to earn with more. What do the more experienced beekeepers do and earn? Thanks, Dale Marmaduke dmarmad@iquest.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:19:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Converting a Hydrometer to a Honey Moisture Meter In-Reply-To: <09445690616961@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > A beekeeper friend just gave me a honeymead hydrometer for > Christmas. Can anyone please help me with the > calculations/calibrations/conversion table needed so I can also use > it as a honey moisture meter? I believe that honey have to high density to measure it that way, but if you insist the conversion table is : water in % dens. kg/l 13 1,446 14 1,440 15 1,435 16 1,430 17 1,424 18 1,417 19 1,410 20 1,403 21 1,395 \vov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:51:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Snelgrove for swarm control, an update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I received in private E-Mail a query regarding my results employing Snelgrove's technique for swarm control. Having never posted my results to BEE-L, I offer the following tidbits as my Yuletide Offering to all my friends and beekeeping chums along with my sincere wishes for a joyous Christmas and Happiest of New Years! For those who missed the initial description of Snelgrove's techniques, send a single line of mail to: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu that reads: GETPOST BEE-L 17749 "Yes, I tested quite heavily Snelgrove's methods this season. I've made no attempts to summarize my results and I don't have my notes with me at the moment, so what I'm writing is off the top of my head. Overall I would say I had great results, which is to say I was able to control swarming in all hives on which I used Snelgrove's methodology. I experimented with at least 40 colonies none of which cast swarms. However, this success in swarm control has to be weighed against the burden of implementing the control. Initially setting up the arrangement (moving/segregating frames of sealed brood into the box below, open brood and eggs above) was new and exciting and I enjoyed the whole process. Queen excluder above the bottom brood chamber, honey supers, Snelgrove Board (SgB) and top brood chamber created quite a tall hive! This is where the methodology became tedious. You can imagine the task required to examine the bottom brood chamber or even just evaluating the honey supers. Any time you want to look into the colony below you must first remove the top colony. Further exacerbating this task is the fact that the SgB is not attached to the top colony, so it became problematic with bees on both top and bottom of the SgB when I removed it working my way down the hive. Attaching the SgB to the top colony would ease this problem. Now, Snelgrove's method effectively sets up a two queen colony and you have all the management headaches associated with them - populous hives requiring MANY honey supers and lots of over the head lifting. Some hives required ladders to work and schlepping bees while precariously perched atop a 6 foot step ladder is flirting with disaster. Fortunately none struck. Those problems aside, I ran into other snags that weren't anticipated or elucidated in Snelgrove's writings. Initially things went quite well, all of the top hives which were queenless (the original queen goes to the colony below) started raising new queens or accepted queens procured from breeders. Most colonies readily accepted introduced queens, which is what you'd expect. The top colony ends up with mostly young bees and nurse bees, as the field bees return to the original hive entrance. However, there were a few of the top colonies that simply refused to accept introduced queens. Some of these I tried two or three new queen introductions, which amounted to a lot of wasted money and work on my part and stress on that colony. After prolonged queenlessness I had to recombined the top colony with the original colony. I quickly learned that if the top colony did not accept the introduced queen that rather than cutting out established queen cells and trying another introduction the colony should be left alone to raise its own queen. In retrospect that should have been obvious since by the time I determined an introduced queen was rejected there is no chance of that colony raising a new queen because the eggs have all hatched and the larvae are too old. The lesson here is bees know more about bees than do beekeepers. Next snag: Not all the top colonies left alone to raise their own queen ended up with a successfully mated new queen. This was minimal, two or three, but again the net result was recombining the top with the bottom, lots of wasted energy on my part and stress on those bees. I would not chalk this up to a problem with Snelgrove's methods per se, it's more of a general problem facing queen breeders. Not all mating nucs are successful, plain and simple, it comes with the territory. Another problem I ran into but did not expect from Snelgrove's writings came when I started employing the many entrances/exits in the SgB used to transfer bees from the top colony to the bottom. Snelgrove claimed that the bees will readily transfer between the colonies because they are familiar with each other's smells due to the double screen separating the two colonies. As Porgy sang, "It's ain't necessarily so!". Some bees transferred readily between colonies, some did not (or at least this is how I interpreted some of my results). Some of my bottom colonies ended up queenless soon after I opened/closed the different doors combining the top colony field force with the bottom colony. I cannot say with assuredness but I suspect that sometimes the bottom colony's queen was assassinated by the foreign bees. This may not be the case, the bottom queen could have met a different demise. But I had enough of the bottom queens disappear that I suspect the bees may not mix as freely and amicably as Snelgrove led one to believe. The final problem I ran into which Snelgrove surely noticed but did not include in his writings was with pollen in my honey supers. When I switched the doors to move field bees from the top colony to the bottom I witnessed more than many top field bees bringing their pollen loads back into the bottom honey supers. Bees tend to store pollen near brood, and the top colony field bees stored pollen near their former brood chamber. This was not a big deal for my extracting supers although I now have a lot of pollen plugs in what had been heretofore strictly honey combs. However, Snelgrove claimed that his methods can be ideal for comb honey production and in fact recommends it! I had to cull nearly half of my comb honey harvest due to the pollen storage problem. I have literally hundreds of Ross Rounds that are not fit for market because the top colony field bees stored pollen in the comb honey supers. To me this is a significant problem. So, did Snelgrove's methods control swarming? Yes, without a doubt. However I wonder if this might be accomplished in other ways. Snelgrove's methods actually allow a hive to swarm while keeping the entire population intact, a unique management technique. When it goes right, the resulting colonies are gangbuster hives which can out produce other hives two and even threefold! However I am not convinced that the energy expended to successfully employ his technique is proportional to the increased yield. If colonies are few and time and energy are bountiful, I recommend Snelgrove's technique. On the other hand, a beekeeper can realize like harvests expending less energy with a few more hives having lower average yields. Swarming can be controlled by making splits - populations are not kept intact, split hives will produce less, but in the long run return on your investment (time and energy) is greater. I think in the future I will use my Snelgrove Boards to make my splits atop established hives to control swarming, but I will move the splits off the established hive to stand alone rather than utilizing the split to enhance the original hive. I can then use these splits as needs dictate during the season without enduring the unforeseen problems I encountered following Snelgrove's writings. As they saying goes, if it sounds too good to be true then perhaps it is. Thanks for asking for an update, it's nice to see folks perusing and using the BEE-L archives!" Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:55:10 -0800 Reply-To: lithar@midwest.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Converting a Hydrometer to a Honey Moisture Meter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olda Vancata wrote: > > > A beekeeper friend just gave me a honeymead hydrometer for > > Christmas. Can anyone please help me with the > > calculations/calibrations/conversion table needed so I can also use > > it as a honey moisture meter? > I believe that honey have to high density to measure it that way, but > if you insist the conversion table is : > > water in % dens. kg/l > 13 1,446 > 14 1,440 > 15 1,435 > 16 1,430 > 17 1,424 > 18 1,417 > 19 1,410 > 20 1,403 > 21 1,395 IMHO, You'd be starting with a pretty heavy mead to see values like that - unlikely to get fermentation going. My hydrometer only goes up to 1.17. Maybe there would be a way to mix a known amount of water at a known SG & Temp with a known amount of honey at a known temp to bring the combined density to a value within the hydrometer's scale, measure it and work backwards using the ratios of water to honey to calculate the SG of the honey and therefore ..... where was I going with this??? Think I'll have a mead and think about something else. AL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tracy Monahan Subject: Profit per hive -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain what profit? I am an accountant and bees are hard work. they keep me out of trouble, entertain children and a great conversation piece. Helps to make for good pick up conversation with the ladies. It also entertains my neighbors. How much does one spend in golf green fees. I spend money and simply get it back at year end. I make very little profit. My goal is to minimize tax and have some assets to pass on to my children that can't be found by the tax people. I run just under 200 hives and I would simply say it is farming. good hard holsom work that is healthy. basically it the by products that I am after. Thinking of tax free mead? One harley riding, account, beekeeper tracey Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Profit per hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:04:08 -0500 "Dale Q. Marmaduke" writes: >Dear Beekeepers,..........>>What do the more experienced beekeepers do and earn? Nothing against my fellow beekeepers Dale, but I seriously doubt you will get any real straight answers here. Beekeepers are like Taxi driver's and Lobstermen, & Crayfishermen in OZ :-) - [ imho ], notoriously deceptive or to put it more politely -quiet on what they really earn. Remember that, at least here in the US of A -Big Brother (IRS) may be listening [ right Andy ? ]! You may get some info from some hobbyists, but I would take what any of the commercial folks have to say, with a grain of pollen. On that note ... Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays to all ......... Al ................................................................... The BeeHive - Scituate, MA,USA All About Honey Bees & Beekeeping Beekeeping Books & Videos http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:46:42 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Extender Patties & Ads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT For those who are interested, I have updated my extender patty instruction and price/mixture calculator page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Extender.htm I've improved the spreadsheet and made the instructions more understandable. I'm not sure if the Mann Lake prices are current, if not maybe someone will let me know. At any rate, an idea of the relative cost of dusting, buying patties, and making them oneself can had by a quick glance. I personally have had great results with the patties, however I do not use them on hives that have scale, I do not leave them on all year, and I am careful to place them in contact with the brood are. I have always had some failure using dust, but none with patties. --- A reminder: The BeeAds page has lots of interesting ads from around the world. It seems that pretty well every ad placed there gets results. And if you want to find a dealer or broker, some are in the list. Since there is no cost, it is great place to put up your wish list or a list of items you no longer need. Now's the time to think about packages and queens for the coming season here in the Northern Hemisphere. Whether you wish to buy or sell, why not run an ad? -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ often. These ads work fast! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:20:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leendert van den Berg Subject: Re: Snelgrove for swarm control, an update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Morris To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: December 23, 1998 9:59 AM Subject: Snelgrove for swarm control, an update I received in private E-Mail a query regarding my results employing Snelgrove's technique for swarm control. Having never posted my results to BEE-L, I offer the following tidbits as my Yuletide Offering to all my friends and beekeeping chums along with my sincere wishes for a joyous Christmas and Happiest of New Years! For those who missed the initial description of Snelgrove's techniques, send a single line of mail to: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu that reads: GETPOST BEE-L 17749 "Yes, I tested quite heavily Snelgrove's methods this season. I've made no attempts to summarize my results and I don't have my notes with me at the moment, so what I'm writing is off the top of my head. Overall I would say I had great results, which is to say I was able to control swarming in all hives on which I used Snelgrove's methodology. I experimented with at least 40 colonies none of which cast swarms. However, this success in swarm control has to be weighed against the burden of implementing the control. Initially setting up the arrangement (moving/segregating frames of sealed brood into the box below, open brood and eggs above) was new and exciting and I enjoyed the whole process. Queen excluder above the bottom brood chamber, honey supers, Snelgrove Board (SgB) and top brood chamber created quite a tall hive! This is where the methodology became tedious. You can imagine the task required to examine the bottom brood chamber or even just evaluating the honey supers. Any time you want to look into the colony below you must first remove the top colony. Further exacerbating this task is the fact that the SgB is not attached to the top colony, so it became problematic with bees on both top and bottom of the SgB when I removed it working my way down the hive. Attaching the SgB to the top colony would ease this problem. Now, Snelgrove's method effectively sets up a two queen colony and you have all the management headaches associated with them - populous hives requiring MANY honey supers and lots of over the head lifting. Some hives required ladders to work and schlepping bees while precariously perched atop a 6 foot step ladder is flirting with disaster. Fortunately none struck. Those problems aside, I ran into other snags that weren't anticipated or elucidated in Snelgrove's writings. Initially things went quite well, all of the top hives which were queenless (the original queen goes to the colony below) started raising new queens or accepted queens procured from breeders. Most colonies readily accepted introduced queens, which is what you'd expect. The top colony ends up with mostly young bees and nurse bees, as the field bees return to the original hive entrance. However, there were a few of the top colonies that simply refused to accept introduced queens. Some of these I tried two or three new queen introductions, which amounted to a lot of wasted money and work on my part and stress on that colony. After prolonged queenlessness I had to recombined the top colony with the original colony. I quickly learned that if the top colony did not accept the introduced queen that rather than cutting out established queen cells and trying another introduction the colony should be left alone to raise its own queen. In retrospect that should have been obvious since by the time I determined an introduced queen was rejected there is no chance of that colony raising a new queen because the eggs have all hatched and the larvae are too old. The lesson here is bees know more about bees than do beekeepers. Next snag: Not all the top colonies left alone to raise their own queen ended up with a successfully mated new queen. This was minimal, two or three, but again the net result was recombining the top with the bottom, lots of wasted energy on my part and stress on those bees. I would not chalk this up to a problem with Snelgrove's methods per se, it's more of a general problem facing queen breeders. Not all mating nucs are successful, plain and simple, it comes with the territory. Another problem I ran into but did not expect from Snelgrove's writings came when I started employing the many entrances/exits in the SgB used to transfer bees from the top colony to the bottom. Snelgrove claimed that the bees will readily transfer between the colonies because they are familiar with each other's smells due to the double screen separating the two colonies. As Porgy sang, "It's ain't necessarily so!". Some bees transferred readily between colonies, some did not (or at least this is how I interpreted some of my results). Some of my bottom colonies ended up queenless soon after I opened/closed the different doors combining the top colony field force with the bottom colony. I cannot say with assuredness but I suspect that sometimes the bottom colony's queen was assassinated by the foreign bees. This may not be the case, the bottom queen could have met a different demise. But I had enough of the bottom queens disappear that I suspect the bees may not mix as freely and amicably as Snelgrove led one to believe. The final problem I ran into which Snelgrove surely noticed but did not include in his writings was with pollen in my honey supers. When I switched the doors to move field bees from the top colony to the bottom I witnessed more than many top field bees bringing their pollen loads back into the bottom honey supers. Bees tend to store pollen near brood, and the top colony field bees stored pollen near their former brood chamber. This was not a big deal for my extracting supers although I now have a lot of pollen plugs in what had been heretofore strictly honey combs. However, Snelgrove claimed that his methods can be ideal for comb honey production and in fact recommends it! I had to cull nearly half of my comb honey harvest due to the pollen storage problem. I have literally hundreds of Ross Rounds that are not fit for market because the top colony field bees stored pollen in the comb honey supers. To me this is a significant problem. So, did Snelgrove's methods control swarming? Yes, without a doubt. However I wonder if this might be accomplished in other ways. Snelgrove's methods actually allow a hive to swarm while keeping the entire population intact, a unique management technique. When it goes right, the resulting colonies are gangbuster hives which can out produce other hives two and even threefold! However I am not convinced that the energy expended to successfully employ his technique is proportional to the increased yield. If colonies are few and time and energy are bountiful, I recommend Snelgrove's technique. On the other hand, a beekeeper can realize like harvests expending less energy with a few more hives having lower average yields. Swarming can be controlled by making splits - populations are not kept intact, split hives will produce less, but in the long run return on your investment (time and energy) is greater. I think in the future I will use my Snelgrove Boards to make my splits atop established hives to control swarming, but I will move the splits off the established hive to stand alone rather than utilizing the split to enhance the original hive. I can then use these splits as needs dictate during the season without enduring the unforeseen problems I encountered following Snelgrove's writings. As they saying goes, if it sounds too good to be true then perhaps it is. Thanks for asking for an update, it's nice to see folks perusing and using the BEE-L archives!" Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:25:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Happy Christmas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Beekeepers everywhere, I wish you all a very Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:56:08 -0800 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Merry Christmas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to wish all the beekeepers on the list a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year. It has been an exceptional year. I have learned a few extremley helpful pieces of information from this list this year. Without the help of my fellow beekeepers I would have struggled alot longer on making my first powered extracter. I learned how to feed bees over the winter. I feel deeply gratified that I have made a couple of good friends from this list with which I exchange ideas and questions. With the help and dialog that is present on this list it is obvious to me that all problems can be solved and folks shouldn't be afraid to ask any question, as there are many experienced beekeepers who are willing to lend a hand. I hope Santa is good to all. Take care and be safe. Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:34:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Holbrook Subject: Why overwinter! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in a very cold northerly location in upstate NY near Canada. I was wondering! With all of the trouble that beekeepers face getting bees through the winter, especially now with both types of mites, why those at least in northern climes don't just kill off the bees in the fall after harvesting the last honey crop of the year. Sure, you would not have strong colonies to get early flows but in this area the usual early flow is dandy-lion. The best flows here are the later clover and goldenrod flows. I seem to be able to get my fair share, 90 to 120 lbs. per hive of these flows with new bees. The advantages of this would be to stop the mites dead in their tracks and purer honey as there would be less of a need for Terramycin, Fluvalinate, Apistan, etc. as only the summer time controls would apply. None of the normal winter expenses would be there. I bet overall that since the cost and time of preparing a hive for winter would be eliminated, that even if you did make less honey that it would still be more cost effective to kill off the hive. Any comments would be appreciated, as long as they are not some bleeding heart babble about not killing the bees. If they die anyhow, there is no difference. I like to keep my girls alive too, I even do all that I can to keep them from being squished when I work them. Hand picking them up and putting them back to a safe place. I am thinking of doing this myself but have not yet. I have heard of others in Canada doing this. Also, this was basically how it was done in the days of raising bees in skeps is in not? I despise having to use chemicals in my hives but realize that it is a necessary evil in modern beekeeping. Any comments? Happy Holidays to All, _ _ (o!o) Jeff Holbrook ((___)) holbrook@northnet.org ---"-"--- Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:29:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Banks Organization: http://www3.sympatico.ca/honey.road Subject: Re: Why overwinter! Comments: To: holbrook@northnet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Holbrook wrote: > With all of the trouble that beekeepers face getting bees > through the winter, especially now with both types of mites, why those at > least in northern climes don't just kill off the bees in the fall after > harvesting the last honey crop of the year. I agree with this in principal, but us beekeepers in Canada pay a premium for bees. When you pay 70-100+$ for one nuc/package of bees, you think twice of trying this practice. From what I have read, commercial beekeepers used to practice this, but when the price soare, overwintering was the only solution. Allen Banks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:53:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick The Beeman Subject: Beekeepers In The Renoysa Mexico area Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Are there any beekeepers in that area that would be willing to give a tour to an American hobbiest beekeeper? We will be down there for a Church group. If you would be nice enough to show us how you cope with the Africanized bees that would be muchly apriciated. thanks muchly, Jerry Ps. I dont speak any spanish! So if you know a little english that would be nice too! Please post on here or email: BeemanNick@aol.com by december 26th at 8 pm cst. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 23:49:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Why overwinter! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Why not talk to experts right in THAT area. Gosh, Dr. Nick Calderone (the successor of Dr. Roger Morse) is right at Cornell in Ithaca. Talk to Nick - he won't bite! The Ontario Beekeepers are an extremwly active group, and they might advise you. Everything you say is correct - but treating George Washington by bleeding with leaches also correct, and new mothers were kept in hospitals for at least 10 days just 50 years ago. When there is such a shortage of bees, it sames a shame to just sacrifice them because it is easier. Canadians USED to do just what you propose until they could no longer import bees from the US because of mites. Now, they winter bees, and most indicate they don't want to reverse. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:50:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vladimir Obolonkin Subject: Re: Black-tea-test for Chinese honey? Comments: To: Lars Hansen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >can find out where it came from, just by putting some honey in Your tea! The contents of >iron will make the tea almost black! Is it real test? To my own experience different honeys OFTEN change tea colour and often to black one. Especially if somebody puts it into hot tea in large amount. I'm not a Chinese and produce honey only for myself's and my friend's family&consumption. Please, take my the best and warmest wishes to all friends-beekeepers, their families and their myriad of bees. Merry Xmas and happy New Year from Belarus! Vladimir from Belarus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:44:12 -0400 Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Why overwinter! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Holbrook wrote: > >Jeff: The method you describe is "the way it was" when I first kept bees, in the early 70's. Ovwewintering became a good option for us, to avoid mites and other diseases being imported. To date, our Province is still mite free. So I guess my question is where you would obtain your disease free stock? Prince Edward Island, Canada? Australia? New Zealand?? All other locations already have mites. Season's Greetings to All Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 08:43:05 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Choosing Yeast for Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, every year at this time, I get going on the subject of Pollen patties, and why should this year be different? I'm indebted to a number of people on this list for their advice, and my bees have looked much better since I have started following their tips. I guess I did myself a disservice -- in a way. and not that I really mind by bragging up California Spray Dry yeast. When I phoned California Spray Dry, it turns out that they have no yeast from Oven A left. Beekeepers have been ringing the phone off the wall, and have snatched up every last bit that was in stock and there will be no more until the end of January. My problem is that I have extra staff now and want to make more patties starting January 4th. We have a few hundred pounds of yeast and of soy on hand and have 500 pounds or so of BeePro, but that won't last long. My question: Has anyone used the yeast from Drier B? Apparently it has a larger granule. That might make it a little less dusty to handle, and I thought that it should break down into a slurry as soon as it is in the syrup anyhow. But I don't know. Any ideas? Also, Stan, you mentioned fennel oil as an attractant. I did not get around to using it and had no trouble with patty wastage. Interestingly enough, with our patties being 50% sugar, we found they disappeared entirely even with pollen coming in. Also, interestingly, Eric Mussen says on his page at http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/briefs/brief4.html " Pollen substitutes will not generate brood production the way that sources of incoming pollens will. However, pollen substitute will prevent a total shut down of brood rearing if the weather turns bad for a long time. Pollen substitute will lead to "fatter" winter bees in areas (like the west) where pollen supplies are short in the late summer and fall. Fatter bees, with more stored nutrients, winter better and rear more brood the next spring than non-fed bees. Bees do not find pollen substitutes particularly attractive. It must be placed directly in contact with the bees as close to the brood as possible. As long as the bees are bringing in a trickle of natural pollen, pollen substitute will be consumed. If no pollen is being brought in, the substitute will be ignored and will spoil over time." This is interesting inasmuch as it indicates the opposite of what members have observed about the consumption of patties when pollen is coming in. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:38:22 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Mango Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year there was some discussion on the possibility of mango honey. I have two apiaries that are located in mango tree rich areas. One in a mango plantation and the other in a semi suburban area with lots of mango trees. After about ten months of observations I have concluded that mango trees do not produce enough nectar for the bees to convert to excess honey and that the bees do not collect pollen from these trees. The two apiaries are located on different sides of the island. One in a drought affected area and the other in an area with adequate rain fall. Both areas had above average crop yields. The first apiary is in an area that did not receive rain for 8 months before the major flowering in August. The drought persisted until mid September. During the flowering very few of the flowers were being worked by the bees and those bees working the flowers did not carry pollen on their pollen baskets. The hives were receiving enough nectar to keep the hive population up but not enough for them to make stores. The second apiary is on the wet side of the island where there are a lot of mango trees (though not a plantation.) This side received rainfall throughout the year. The observations were the same. Perhaps others made different observations. If anyone has experience with the pollination of passion fruit I would like to speak with you. John Lewis Fiji Islands 18S 178E ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:57:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Choosing Yeast for Patties Comments: To: allend@internode.net In-Reply-To: <199812242322.PAA12675@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:43 AM 12/24/98 -0700, you wrote: Hi Allen and Bee Friends.. >bit that was in stock and there will be no more until the end of January. You know that's not that far away. >My question: Has anyone used the yeast from Drier B? Apparently it has a >larger granule. That might make it a little less dusty to handle, and I >thought that it should break down into a slurry as soon as it is in the >syrup anyhow. But I don't know. Any ideas? The two grades I know of are Feed and Food grade. The feed grade is OK and can be used but you will find waste as the bees can NOT consume chunks of yeast or anything else and will dump it out the entrance, I don't remember being able to brake it down and do remember the loss. Sounds like Drier B to me? >enough, with our patties being 50% sugar, we found they disappeared >entirely even with pollen coming in. The attractant so to speak is the sugar the more sugar the faster the diet is consume of course the more sugar in the diet the less protein. I use HFC as it make a pattie that can be rolled out and cut into equal portions for feeding. >Also, interestingly, Eric Mussen.. (says) Nice guy but never owned more then a hive of bees if that many and I can tell you from personal experience and that by starting with bulk bees and a young queen if you have the right diet you need NO pollen, NO flight, but it does help to have bees that are strong enough to create the heat necessary to consume the diet and rear brood and a young queen that will not need to be replaced before queens are available. >http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/briefs/brief4.html >" Pollen substitutes will not generate brood production the way that >sources of incoming pollens will. IMHO. This is not true and is not based on any research that I can think of and is only hyper boil from someone who should know the difference. >Bees do not find pollen substitutes particularly attractive. It must be >placed directly in contact with the bees as close to the brood as >possible. It matter not what or how attractive the substitute is it must be placed in the area of the hive that the bees would normally rear brood. Normally the center of the cluster in a single or on top of the center of the cluster if split by supers. >If no pollen is being brought in, the >substitute will be ignored and will spoil over time." FALSE, the availability of pollen has nothing at all to do with a substitute protein diet but it is true the bees will not use the pollen if its not in the right place at the right time much like pollen and incoming pollen is all important if your diet is no good. Some beekeepers reverse the brood box so that the pollen stored in late summer and fall is in the top so the bees will consume it in the late winter or spring and rear brood. This works great with 3/4 depth brood supers but does require extra labor and good timing. It would be nice to have pollen in the hive or coming in but if that pollen was not good in quality or quantity the bees would rear little if any brood to the hatching stage which is what I assume most want. It requires a pound or more of protein to rear a pound of hatching bees, so I have read so must it be true.(Eckart about 1940) That amount of pollen in frames would require beekeepers to take off and store pollen combs to feed a normal hive to double its population off season, most won't do that so feeding protein makes sense. >This is interesting inasmuch as it indicates the opposite of what members >have observed about the consumption of patties when pollen is coming in. That's right, like I said some people with the Dr. in front of their name have little seat time as real beekeepers and only can repeat what others have told them and if they were told wrong then what they repeat will be rong. What Dr. Mussen says was true in the old days, maybe 50 years ago, when beekeepers thought soy flower was a good protein for bees and is maybe as true today if that's all you have to feed but I know of no one in California that is successfully feeding protein to bees that has or can rear one bee to hatching using soy flower but for sure if you add enough sugar it will consume it more then likely giving them a problem if they can not fly for several months. I should say bees if they can fly and have nothing else to do pick up soy flower, but they will also pick up sulfur, even saw dust, and no one has ever said that was good for them. The big secret with any diet is rearing drones and NO one has ever reported rearing drones on a soy flower based diet to the best of my knowledge. The most discouraging aspects of rearing bees without natural food is the importance of keeping that diet in the hive at all times as if they eat it all and have no more they then will clean out all the unsealed brood before you know it and its back to square one. Some call this a "brood gap". The other problem one must be aware of is the more you feed the more a hive will need. Hives that start out on 1/4 to 1/2 pound per visit will if the diet is any good require two or more pounds in six to eight weeks. Best to know when the first pollen will be out and start several months ahead so the natural food can take over from the diet. I guess the only other problem is the answer to this question, why would a beekeeper fed protein in the first place? If you want early swarms or early queen failure it is a good way to get it. If you enjoy bees consuming expensive expendables its a great way to spend money. But if you need early bees to make packages or divides then feeding protein can pay and you would have a early supply of queens to replace the ones that will burn out during the feeding period. IN my opinion the best plan is the one nature has provided and that I call the "big sleep" the longer and more quit the better as bees consume very little when really quite and can even under the poorest conditions make up any lost population in a few months in the spring if they have a young queen and good pasture. Beekeepers who figure out how to provide that will in the end have the best results. Everything else requires a real sharp pencil to recover the cost of materials and labor and more time then not most have not been able to demonstrate any great advantage over what nature provides. I know what I say will not change any minds and I hope not discouraging anyone from feeding as being a beekeeper I enjoyed watching my bees eat sugar and proteins and rear brood and drones when kept confined by even our mostly mild weather and I could sell the extra bees. For a picture of a hive on DEC.15, 1977 started with NO brood, NO honey, NO pollen, just a normal hive in October with normal number of bees and a good queen when all the frames were replaced with empty brood combs and it was fed all the sugar syrup it would consume and a protein diet of yeast products, NO flowers at all and very little flight time, go to http://beenet.com/121577.jpg This hive would eat the average beekeeper out of house and home if he had very too many like it. This years heavy cold spell has taken a serious toll on citrus growers in California, already farm workers are queuing up for help. An estimated $600 in fruit loss translates into lots of jobs lost. Too early to say what's going on in the bees other then some areas have pasture out and many more will in a few weeks. Cold weather like we are having 15-20 f. not only helps the deciduous fruit growers trees go dormant bringing out a heavy bloom in the spring but here in years past has seemed to me to help the bees. But I am sure that any dinks in the yards are dead. Chow, the OLd Drone For the November USDA Honey Market Reports * It ain't so good! But remember the #1 Honey Co-Op has only received $0.45 on this years crop. http://beenet.com/index1.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 08:38:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiservices Subject: International Petition Against Honey Adulteration Comments: To: Apinet-L_Diffusion , Apither-L_Diffusion , Apis-L_Diffusion , BeeBreed_Diffusion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 *************************************************** International Petition Against Honey Adulteration *************************************************** Hi all, We were one of many to receive the email from an Indian Company offering products to "stretch" honey. This letter has also been circulated on the BEE-L. It's also worth visiting the Canadian site http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Analog/ where Dave Tegart (Email : tegart@telusplanet.net) is looking for signatures for a HONEY ANALOG PROTEST which includes a COMMITMENT LETTER AND REGISTRY. We appreciate his initiative and feel that this problem not only concerns= the USA and Canada but beekeepers worldwide. Let's make the most of the W= eb and innovate. The "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" offers you an internationa= l petition set to grow on a daily basis. The list of signatures will be available for heads of beekeeping or consumers organizations to use to bring pressure to bear on their politicians. Analysis laboratories will b= e able to use it to convince their government to invest in this area. Journalists, whether beekeeping or main stream, can also use it to encourage their editors to cover this problem. So, if you are concerned by this problem of adulteration, we would like t= o suggest three steps: 1. become better informed by reading, for example, the 40-page full repor= t on the adulteration of honey at http://www.beekeeping.org/spmf/adulteration.htm or obtain all the message= s dealing with honey analog on BEE-L by posting the following order to LISTSERV@uacsc2.albany.edu : SEARCH honey analog IN bee-l SINCE Nov 1998 2. give the Canadians a helping hand by filling out their protest form at= : http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Analog/; 3. sign the following international petition at http://www.beekeeping.org/petition_against_adulteration.htm Any other suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks Gilles Ratia Webmaster of the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" gilles.ratia@apiservices.com http://www.apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 15:03:11 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MR GA CAMBRAY Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Yeast - some other info Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Allen/All Allen, I enjoyed reading your stuff about yeast, as did I enjoy your bit Andy. Some info about yeast - Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Which I gather is the one you would be buying - also sometimes called S.carlsburgensis, S.pastorianus and a few others) is a very versatile and tough yeast. If grown under hyperoxygenater conditions (IE not in the bottom of a beer fermentor) it is very rich in a number of fats, proteins and other nutrients which we can digest. As time goes by if it is used in anaerobic conditions (no oxygen) it begins to run low on nutrients that it needs for growth, but which it needs oxygen to synthesize. Commercial brewers usually save yeast which becomes 'stuck' by aerating it a few time - but with time it becomes so pathetec that it is turfed - usually to a yeast extract plant (here it goes to a factory that makes stuff called Marmite - a black paste that your smear on bread if you want to die of kidney failure oneday). Now - if one takes such yeast and dries it a a low temperature - up to about 40C (probably about 110F) the yeast will spurulate if it can - brewing yeast usually can - this means it will form a thing called a tetrad - if you look at it under magnification (1000X) you can see a number of balls, sometimes walls depending on the strain. Nothing you can possibly do will ever release any nutrients from this thing - it is the biolgocial equicalent of a bomb shelter - temperature tolerant, enzyme resistant, acid resistant, alkali resistant, it is a waste of deigestible matter and will give your bees a sore stomach. Hence, my advice to a beekeeper, which is probably dangerous advice as it is practically untested (I have fed brewing yeast to my bees and they were there two weeks later) would be to go to the local brewery and get their spent yeast - find some way of heating it to 80C for twenty minutes - which will kill it and then feed it directly to the bees together with a bit of sugar - this is a highly nutritious, easily degestable sort of thing - and because it has not been heated to about 95C most of the fats and vitamins will be OK still - this is similar to pollen - I am sure cooked pollen would be bad for bees. (As an aside, South African Breweries - the 4th largest in the world - recently had a problem at their Prospecton Plant in Durban where their yeast disposer had some technical hitch and was not able to get rid of the yeast - it cost them about R10 000 000 to dispose of the waste yeast - in SA terms, as far as buying power here goes that would be equivalent to US$7 000 000! in the US) Any ideas? Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:42:58 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MR GA CAMBRAY Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: why Overwinter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All/Jeff The idea of killing of bees due to difficulty getting bees through winter has some moral problems. I personally believe that a beekeeper is something more than just a capitalist trying to maximise profits - at the expense of the environment. We as humans are just too selfish to perfect an ideal social system like communism, but at least we can be fair to animals that are such successful communists that we can as capitalists take their surpluss!! I like to think that beekeepers nowdays would be able to find a better way around the problem - after all bees are one of the few insects to evolve a genuine symbioses with humans - which means we should keep up our side of the deal. Sorry to sound moral (we south africans are not supposed to be moral you know) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey The Universe is not here right now, if you would like to leave a message, leave your name and number after the long silence and it will get back to you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 19:04:43 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Mango honey In-Reply-To: <199812250105.LAA24147@iccu5.ipswich.gil.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Lewis wrote > After about ten months of observations I have concluded that mango > trees do not produce enough nectar for the bees to convert to excess = honey > and that the bees do not collect pollen from these trees. I agree with your observation. I had bees working mangoes in north Queen= sland when I lived there and, although they worked the mango flowers hard= , there was no surplus nectar in the boxes. I know beekeepers who professionally pollinate mangoes and they say the = same thing. Those that claim to have got a honey crop off mangoes have = not, in my opinion, looked over the boundary fence at what was flowering = outside. I have tasted so called mango honey and it tasted more like hon= ey from the trees that were flowering outside the orchard. > If anyone has experience with the pollination of passion fruit I would = like > to speak with you. I have seen bees on passionfruit. With the large flower, I have seen bee= s walking in and out of the flower without touching the anthers. However= , those that put bees on passionfruit say the growers have noticed an inc= rease in yield when bees are there compared to when they are not. So as = long as the grower is happy, so should the beekeeper, particularly if the= beekeeper is being paid for the service. Again, I believe that there is no honey yield from the passionfruit and = you would need to keep an eye on the hives if there are no other sources = of nectar or pollen nearby. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 08:33:56 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Yeast - some other info In-Reply-To: <2D2F83D2F04@warthog.ru.ac.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Some info about yeast - Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Which I gather is > the one you would be buying - also sometimes called S.carlsburgensis, > S.pastorianus and a few others) is a very versatile and tough yeast. We'll deal with the California Spray Dry product here for now, since that is the only one I have found that I can afford. It is about 50c USD per pound and the torula (torutein CT) that Musson was recommending turns out to be $5.20 CAD /kg > If grown under hyperoxygenater conditions (IE not in the bottom of a beer > fermentor) it is very rich in a number of fats, proteins and other > nutrients which we can digest.... Here's the breakdown. Maybe you can say if this is spent and sporulated yeast or the oxygenated variety? Protein 39-48% Fat 2.3% Fiber 3.6% Ash 5.9% Moisture 3.7% pH 4-7 Bulk Density 30-33lbs/ft3 Minerals NFE 49.9 Calcium 21 Phosporus 10 Magnesium .06 Potassium 1.94 Sodium .26 Copper 6.0 ppm Iron 43.0 ppm Manganese 22.4 ppm Zinc 24.0 ppm Vitamins E 7.4 iu/lb B6 14.0 mg/lb B12 3.9 mcg/lb Thiamine 16. mg/lb Niacin 147.0 mg/lb Pantothenic Acid 6.1 mg/lb Choline 324.0 mg/lb Biotin 98.0 mcg/lb Folic Acid .64 mg/lb Inositol 2078 mg/lb Riboflavin 10.1 mg/lb > > Now - if one takes such yeast and dries it a a low temperature - up > to about 40C (probably about 110F) the yeast will spurulate if it can... I gather the spray drying process is just that. The slurry is sprayed from a nozzle and dries quickly at moderate temperatures. How fast can yeast sporulate? I don't know the drying temperature. I haven't tried resusitating the yeast to see if it is active. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 09:00:27 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Choosing Yeast for Patties In-Reply-To: <03585622245288@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > The attractant so to speak is the sugar the more sugar the faster the diet > is consume of course the more sugar in the diet the less protein. I use > HFC as it make a pattie that can be rolled out and cut into equal portions > for feeding. Yup. We have been using sucrose syrup and do the same. Our trick has been to dump in a pail or two of ordinary table sugar with each batch to get the sugar up to 50% of the mix -- a tip I took from your writings here. We find that using some soy in the mix is good, since the mix is loose enough to stir well in the mixer, but 'sets' a bit when dumped out and allowed to sit for an hour or more. The dry soy slowly draws moisture from the mix over an hour or two. (It will also 'set up' in the mixer if you turn it off and go for lunch). Once 'set', it is not as sticky or runny and sits up nicely in a mound awaiting rollin. It then rolls out nicely into a pancake for cutting into 3-1/2 x 10" x ~5/8" patties weighing 1 lb each. We use soy flour to dust the work table and on top of each 'loaf' as we roll it out and place it into the wax paper to prevent sticking. We put about 100 one-pound patties into each of the standard supers that we use for lugging the feed around. The supers we use are ones we have accumulated over the years that are too long or shallow or have some such defect and we nail a piece of 3/8 plywood on for a bottom. At the consistency we aim for, the patties do not settle much in the boxes, although it is wise to only half fill the box the first day, then top it up the next day when the bottom layer has set up a bit more. We place 12 such boxes on each pallet and have 1200 lbs of feed ready to go to the field. Each patty is in a piece of 8"x11" waxed paper doubled over. We have to slit the paper several times with a hive tool when placing them on hives so the bees will get good access and eat the mix. I've placed the details on a web page and the spreadsheet we use to calculate sugar and protein levels can be downloaded there too. http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Pollen.htm > It requires a pound or more of protein to rear a pound of hatching bees, > so I have read so must it be true... I tend to doubt this. I have heard a pound of _pollen_ to a pound of bees, but really don't know. > For a picture of a hive on DEC.15, 1977 started with NO brood, NO honey, > NO pollen, just a normal hive in October with normal number of bees and a > good queen when all the frames were replaced with empty brood combs and it > was fed all the sugar syrup it would consume and a protein diet of yeast > products, NO flowers at all and very little flight time, go to > http://beenet.com/121577.jpg ... Wow! Nice bees! What exactly was the diet used here, Andy? Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 09:39:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Choosing Yeast for Patties Comments: To: allend@internode.net In-Reply-To: <199812251605.IAA26909@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:00 AM 12/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >> http://beenet.com/121577.jpg ... >Wow! Nice bees! What exactly was the diet used here, Andy? In 1977 that's like another life time ago for me but I am sure it was a mix of Wheast, and yeast from the same source you are using and sugar, and maybe small amounts of everything else anyone would suggest as this hive and a few others were at the shop and I could watch them close. The diet could have had a small amount maybe 5% pollen added also. You can see some of the material on the frames as I never let them run out even when photographing them. Another angle you may want to try if you can get HFC syrup... I used to take my diet out in boxes with butcher paper separating the layers of cut patties. This was OK until it gets wet and then everything can run together, same on long trips on bumpy farm roads. When HFC came out at the end of my feeding experiences I tried it for a season or two and what a difference it made in the physical properties of my patties. I could make patties that I could stack without paper and they would hold their shape plus all the sticky mess in mixing the ingredients changed. Now not everyone will want to put the labor into making their patties I did but I rolled them out and cut them with a cookie cutter and then stacked them in 6 5/5 supers with flat plastic bottoms for transport. Some beekeepers do real well just making their bee diets by the bucket and spooning it out in the yard. I wanted to be able to know the amounts and to reduce the mess so I preferred patties that I could weigh and give each hive a measured amount starting with less then a pound and working up to what they would consume in about a week or ten days. ( Some hives will refuse this stuff no matter what you do and these usually turn out go be hives with queens that can not lay.) All this feeding, liquid sugars and diets has one side advantage and it quickly identifies those hives that are not going to make the cut without much help in some case this can be quite discouraging. Chow, the OLd Drone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 09:15:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Yeast - some other info In-Reply-To: <199812251446.GAA19978@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:03 PM 12/25/98 +0000, you wrote: Hi Garth and Beekeeping Friends, Merry Christmas to All! >as it is practically untested (I have fed brewing yeast to my bees >and they were there two weeks later) would be to go to the local >brewery and get their spent yeast - find some way of heating it to >80C for twenty minutes - which will kill it and then feed it directly Sounds interesting but I would ask if you would do the same with pollen and what value the pollen would have after "killing" all the yeast in it? The best yeast I have ever tested and used by the tons for feeding bees was a product made for forest products waste. It was sold here for many years as a food flavor enhancement for spicy foods such as potato chips. The trade name was Wheast and it was not so dead that I could not grown tremendous colonies on plywood its mother. In fact it would make it very dangerous to walk on one of my truck beds after several seasons of bee diet delivery use as you would fall through. This forest product, Wheast, was discontinued and the equipment was shipped to SA.(South America not South Africa) Other products made from corn waste products called Wheast are available but were no benefit over food grade yeasts for making bee diets but may still be in use by some or many beekeepers. As for my answer to the question on pollen the best pollen that I have ever feed bees was naturally fermented in closed containers in a 80+ degree f. room without the addition of any moisture. The resulting product would gag a maggot, was very dark in color, and smelled like stale beer barf but boy was it exciting to see what bees would do with it as far as rearing brood when added about 5-50% to yeast with enough sugar syrup to make a pattie. I am sure these diets would not be fit for human consumption and never have compared insect diets to anything I would put in my own month as I am sure some of the things bees will eat and do well on are not necessarily that good for us anyway. Anyway I keep forgetting to tell all...so here is one secret of making protein diets for bees all should be aware of and that is they should/can be made up ahead of use and allowed to sit in a warm room 80 f which will save the bees some time and even allow them to consume them at lower temperatures then they normally would. These yeast based diets all are better if allowed to work which is not new information as most should realize by now that bees do not eat fresh pollen or even fresh stored pollen but eat a fermented product made from pollen some call be bread. They do this by adding moisture to the pollen at warm hive temperatures and then sucking that moisture with the dissolved pollen up into their bodies. You can tell which pollen cells are being consumed in the hive by looking for this moisture layer on top of the stored pollen. Bees will even rob pollen from a dead hive in this way if they are in need of it. (another beekeeper factoid not reported) In the beginning beekeepers knew nothing about yeasts or making diets except from pollen. Beekeepers turned to those who did know about rearing insects in the commercial insectories and picked up on yeast and Wheast from them. I personally visited with insectories operators from California to Florida to pick over their brains and they mined my own. At the time these were the cream of the crop of entomologists in the US and all were interested in honeybees, beekeepers, and our problems as they were Anti Dusty and we were losing much of our wealth to pesticides. One thing I learned and have said before was they all added TANG to their diets and did not know why scientifically but said it was necessary. Maybe it had something to do with the moon men at the time were using Tang I don't know but for sure its something to think about. I did add a lot of other things including Tang to my diets but gave up on them as all I could see is they added to the cost and did not have benefits I could measure with my own eyes. And then I am not sure if those moon walks were not all made on some back lot of a movie studio in Hollywood anyway as I had been reared on them as a kid when ever Saturday afternoon I went to the movies for a dime and watched the Buck Rogers serials as he walked around on the moon or was it mars, maybe both. Anyway Happy Christmas to All, including all who I have Offended! the OLd Drone Los Banos, California (target information left off because of current events) (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:28:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: Why overwinter! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Since the border between Canada and the continental USA was closed because of HBTM, Canadian beekeepers have been forced to look elsewhere for their honeybees. New Zealand, Australia, and Hawaii became the main suppliers but were more expensive than those from the southern USA. Some beekeepers, who had previously made lacklustre attempts at overwintering because they could buy cheap packages in the spring, now spend time and money to ensure successful overwintering. Several additional benefits have come to light. Research has developed, with varied success, HBTM resistant honeybees, honeybees somewhat tolerant of Varroa, and honeybees who winter well. Local breeders now market Queens and Nucs with some or all of the above traits. Small beekeepers, like myself, now look at splitting the mild mannered hive, that produced over 200 Lbs of honey, next spring. This investment in the genes of your honeybees can only be maintained if you winter your hives. I fear that Hive Beetles and Africanized Honeybees are the next pests that will be shipped all over North America if the package bee system is used. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, Bob Darrell RR#2 Caledon Ontario, Canada 44N 80W ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 11:46:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Converting a Hydrometer to a Honey Moisture Meter In-Reply-To: <17142095318444@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > water in % dens. kg/l > > 13 1,446 > > 14 1,440 > > 15 1,435 > > 16 1,430 > > 17 1,424 > > 18 1,417 > > 19 1,410 > > 20 1,403 > > 21 1,395 > You'd be starting with a pretty heavy mead to see values like that - > unlikely to get fermentation going. My hydrometer only goes up to > 1.17. Maybe there would be a way to mix a known amount of water at a > known SG & Temp with a known amount of honey at a known temp to > bring the combined density to a value within the hydrometer's scale, > measure it and work backwards using the ratios of water to honey to > calculate the SG of the honey and therefore ..... where was I going > with this??? The easiest and cheapest way to investigate water content in honey is: weigh an empty jar = EJ. Fill the same jar with 20 degrees warm water (make a mark on the jar) and weigh again = WJ. Empty out the water, dry the jar and fill the jar with exactly same volume (to the mark on the jar) of honey (again 20 degrees celsius) = HJ. The scale must have at least 1 g accuracy. Density = ( HJ - EJ ) / ( WJ - EJ ) Look in the table above in the conversion table. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:03:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Steve Newcomb Subject: Re: Why overwinter! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff and all: Yours is an interesting idea. But I think you need to look at the economics of the situation: Overwinter bees: Apistan, spring and fall, 8 strips at $1.75 ea. = $14.00 Fumidal-B, 1/2 bottle/hive, $11.00/bottle = $ 5.50 Terramycin, dusting, no sugar included = $ 4.50 Mite-a-thol, pre-packed = $ 3.00 TOTAL $27.00 per hive Buy Bees each Spring: 3# package bees with queen: =$35.00 Shipping =$ 9.00(?) TOTAL $41.00 per hive My harvest averaged 120# per hive this year, based 2 hives started from swarms. I did not use Terramycin this year, and my meds cost $.142/pound of honey harvested. If I had, using the above prices, my meds would have cost $.225/pound. If I had averaged 105# per hive (your average) from new hives started from 3# packages, the bees would have cost me $.390/pound of honey harvested. If I had harvested my same 120# per hive with new bees, it would have cost me $.312/pound of honey. If the $.165/pound higher cost is offset by your feeling better about not using medications, then go for it. A hobbiest would probably be able to justify the higher expense due to the smaller number of hives, and may be able to get a higher price for honey that comes from non-medicated hives. However, I doubt a commercial beekeeper would be able to justify the added expense. You also have to look at your bees in relationship to the environment around you. Are there other hives in you area that may suffer greater infections because of your non-medicated bees? When I got my hives, it was STRONGLY suggested to me that I treat faithfully as another beekeeper has her hives about 1 mile away. Merry Christmas to all Steve Newcomb Elyria, Ohio where winter hit with a vengence Monday night. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 22:52:35 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Moriarty Subject: Passion Fruit Pollenation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Passion fruit in Hawaii is most efficiently pollenated with the carpenter bee, which is similar to the bumble bee (Apis Bombidae). Also, while it may be true that the volume of nectar produced by Mango is small, I have encountered anecdotal evidence of allergic reactions to "mango honey." I am guessing this may be more due to the trace Mango pollen in the honey than the actual source of the nectar. Aloha, mike moriarty \\\|/// \\~~ ~~// (/ @ @ /) +--oOOO----------(_)--------------+ | Michael Moriarty | | P.O. Box 1102 | | Kapaau, Hawaii 96755 | | 808-889-5809 | +--------------------------oOOO---+ |___|___| | | | | oooO Oooo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 10:43:03 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Producing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About 23 years ago, I put up a woodshop from junk & scraps to make my own wood equipment. During the initial years, it felt good to be working with pinewood, the smell of fresh cuts, the smoker fuel in abundance, all the little pieces which found use as beer coasters, parquet, etc., the satisfaction of fashioning a unique business out of junk and flowers. As the operation grew, the picture changed. Economics muscled it's way into my reverie. To be able to focus on beekeeping, I needed to free my time from ancillary tasks. I outsourced. I found a good furniture manufacturer, taught her people the exacting standards, troubleshooted her machine lines, incentivised her people. Now, she even gives us a credit line. I order 2 weeks in advance and she can deliver 100 doubles - complete, one month to pay. If I do it right, I can even pay her with the proceeds from sales. Australia comes out with nice frame ends. All you have to make are straight top bars and bottom bars. You will have to glue the preformed ends on. Be sure to wire the frames tightly together. The bees have a little tougher time "welding" the wax foundation to the top bars, but when they do everything turns out ok. Be sure to fit the foundation all the way down to the bottom bars, so the bees can weld it to the wood too. This may take out most of the work from producing your own beehives. That is if you don't plan on finger-jointing the box corners. Here in the tropics, we have found that rabbet-jointed corners let less water in and last longer-if you use the right glue. We use flush covers, no inner covers, linoleum sheets for inner covers and pallet style bottoms. We do a lot of moving so our equipment has to be strong and simple. With 4 holes on the covers and 4 entrances on the bottom boards. We use tin sheets for flooring to retard the rot. Everything is Langstroth standard - inside dimensions only. Happy woodworking! Happy New Year to all our Fellow Bekeepers. Joel & Violaine Magsaysay Landline & Telefax: (063) 046-865-0018 Cellphone & Cellfax: IDD: 063-912-318-7517 DDD: 0912-318-7517 Mail to: P. O. Box #1, 4118 Silang, Cavite, Philippines Home Apiary: ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS #8 ILOG MARIA KM. 47, AGUINALDO HIGHWAY LALAAN 1, SILANG, CAVITE PHILIPPINES ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:54:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All And so our march to the Brave New World continues apace. Honey Analog, the latest stepping stone on the journey to who knows where has now arrived, to take its place with Genetic Modification and Cloning. Maybe however, the arrival of this latest product, has now specified what organic honey is - nectar which has been passed through the organs of bees. A Happy New Year to All. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 19:45:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE3108.57208140" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE3108.57208140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Computer Software Solutions Ltd An: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Datum: Samstag, 26. Dezember 1998 16:12 Betreff: Organic Honey Mr. Barrett, =20 you are quite right. Honey analog has nothing common with honey except = the content of sugar. But although honey contains a great amount of = glucose and fructose it is much more than sugar and cannot compared to = the synthetic mixture of any analogs. I prefer to avoid the name honey = for this adulterate one. Quite an incidental remark: it reminds me to a substitute in the years = after the world war II, when there was "kunsthonig" in the shelves of my = parent's store, (engl. "artificial honey"), because of the lack of pure = organic honey. I don't want these times to come back. It would be more = honest to sprinkle sugar on a slice of bread and butter. =20 In addition to that I would also say, that filtered honey isn't honey = any more according to my understanding. If people want to buy honey that = doesn't cristallize, I would recommend those honeys that don't = cristallize by their natural composition of ingredients.=20 =20 Honey should be as far as possible that organic product that comes out = of the comb. Filtering, heating, drying, conserving or anything like = that decreases the quality of this product. It's a concession to = industrial production of foods which isn't necessary to my opinion.=20 =20 Sincerely =20 Reimund ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Beekeeper in Germany (Bavaria) Queen Rearing of Carniolan Bees Insemination Station ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 50=B0 North, 11=B0 East ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE3108.57208140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Computer Software = Solutions=20 Ltd <cssl@IOL.IE>
An: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU = <BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU>Datum:=20 Samstag, 26. Dezember 1998 16:12
Betreff: Organic = Honey

Mr.=20 Barrett,
 
you are quite right. Honey analog has nothing = common with=20 honey except the content of sugar. But although honey contains a great = amount of=20 glucose and fructose it is much more than sugar and cannot compared to = the=20 synthetic mixture of any analogs. I prefer to avoid the name honey for = this=20 adulterate one.
Quite an incidental remark: it reminds me to a = substitute in=20 the years after the world war II, when there was "kunsthonig" = in the=20 shelves of my parent's store, (engl. "artificial honey"), = because of=20 the lack of pure organic honey. I don't want these times to come back. = It would=20 be more honest to sprinkle sugar on a slice of bread and = butter.
 
In=20 addition to that I would also say, that filtered honey isn't honey any = more=20 according to my understanding. If people want to buy honey that doesn't=20 cristallize, I would recommend those honeys that don't cristallize by = their=20 natural composition of ingredients.
 
Honey should be as far = as=20 possible that organic product that comes out of the comb. Filtering, = heating,=20 drying, conserving or anything like that decreases the quality of this=20 product. It's = a concession to=20 industrial production of foods which isn't necessary to my=20 opinion.=20
 
Sincerely
 
Reimund
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~
Beekeeper=20 in Germany (Bavaria)
Queen Rearing of Carniolan Bees
Insemination=20 Station
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
50°  North, = 11° =20 East
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE3108.57208140-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Hydrometer Conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 You are dealing with two very different densities and it is impossible fo= r one hydrometer to measure both. A mead hydrometer requires a range from 0.990 to 1.120. This is spread along several inches of scale. A honey hydrometer (mine anyway) is scaled from 1.350 to 1.450. This covers hone= y ranging from impossibly watery to very dense. A mead hydrometer would no= t start to sink in honey.I suppose one could weight it with a number of metal washers sitting on the bulb to make it sink. You would then need t= o graduate a new scale using a real honey hydrometer or refractometer in a wide range of made up honeys from weak to dense. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:10:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Bees for Nagorno-Karabakh (Azerbaijan) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What do you think? Bees for Nagorno-Karabakh (Azerbaijan) A news story from the "Fresno Bee" on Christmas day caught my attention as it reported on a local non-profit groups efforts to rebuild the honeybee population from 250 hives by giving 3,000 more hives, package bees?, to 300 local Armenian farmers in Nagorno-Karabakh, a breakaway republic from Azerbaijan with a history of war supported with guns and bullets by Russian and Armenia. Many years of War was given for the loss of bees, war with blood and bullets, not the war with bee disease, pests, or predators as we know it? The cost for a one year program would be $1,000,000.US, with over half coming from the US government from the "Save the Children" funds which a connection I can not see unless the children are going to receive the honeybees and training? The balance of the money will come from the local non-profit Armenian group with three local bee experts who are not named and help from the University of California including instructions on keeping the bees which has no parallel between Nagorno-Karabakh and California beekeeping or conditions? All this sounds too good, but looking at the history and current events some more questions become apparent. The break away area of Nagorno-Karabakh (Azerbaijan) is about the size of Delaware, has a mostly ethnic Armenian population of 160,000 and is named for the black soil of the Caucasus mountains it is in. Beekeeping never has been a main source of farm income for the population but at one time they did have about 3,500 hives which only produced 30 tons of honey in a normal year and much less in others. Hardly enough to provide honey for their own population but according to those who would restart beekeeping enough to provide $500.00 in annual income to the 300 newly trained beekeepers, they would start with only an average of 10 hives each. One can only assume that this income is after costs and even then an investment of 1 million $$ seems high for the expected returns and considering that the new beekeepers will be expected to give 10% of the finished product to the poor may exceed the real profit from the beekeepers labor and expense. What do some of you with more experience then I think? I know from being an experienced beekeeper and watching beekeepers all my life many would tell you if they were given a million dollars they would keep bees until it was all gone. Do you think this is a viable program or could big money like this be used in other ways that would help many more people if it not used to buy more guns and ammunition anyway? Today a million bucks would buy a lot of honey from China or Honey-analog from India which may be the same thing if you believe what some are saying and this could sweeten the lives of many children in any country. You can rest assured that what ever we say or think is not going to change anything but it would be interesting to look back at it in the next century to see if a cottage bee industry still exists in Nagorno-Karabakh, if it is still around then. I hope it does and is producing much honey and you all can call me the OLd Cynic Drone who would question the honorable intentions of our US government and some good local people trying to help those I think would rather fight then help themselves including their own children. Chow, the OLd Drone For the News story on Bees for Nagorno-Karabakh see http://beenet.com/bnews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:27:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Cottager Hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit David Oakes asks where to find information on Cottager hives. This information is to be found in Chapter VIII of The Practical Bee Guide - a Manual of Modern Beekeeping by the Rev. J.G.Digges, M.A. first published May 23rd 1904. I hope this helps. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 08:39:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Norman CotÊ" Subject: BEEKEEPING SLIDES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I will be teaching a beginners bee-keeping class this February. I am looking for slides that I can use for my class (a picture is worth a thousand words). I am willing to purchase these and hope someone out there can help me. The slides should show eggs, larva, pupa, capped brood, pollen, ect. Thanking you in advance. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 00:19:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ines Kinchen Subject: Re: Why overwinter! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Because I love the bees. ines ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:08:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Randy C. Lynn" Subject: Re: BEEKEEPING SLIDES Comments: cc: LJConnor@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >I will be teaching a beginners bee-keeping class this February. I am looking >for slides that I can use for my class (a picture is worth a thousand words). >I am willing to purchase these and hope someone out there can help me. The >slides should show eggs, larva, pupa, capped brood, pollen, ect. >Thanking you in advance. >Norm> Contact Larry Conner at Wicwas Press, he has several collections of slides on beekeeping which are available for sale. Contact him at 203-250-7575, or at ljconnor@aol.com. Please be patient, he is traveling over the holidays. Randy Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:54:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Flanders Subject: "Spent" Brewer's Yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the recent discussion about feeding yeast, and several mentions of "brewer's yeast," raises an interesting question for some of us "small-timers" lurking here in the background: In addition to beekeeping, I also enjoy home brewing ales and meads in small 5 gallon (US) batches. Many home brewers "rack" (siphon) the fermenting liquid out of the primary (initial) fermentation container into a secondary fermenting container in order to improve the clarity of the brew. This leaves behind a considerable amount of "spent yeast" that has settled to the bottom of the primary container -- anywhere from a 1/2 inch to 1+ inch thick paste. Most homebrewers I know just rinse this residue down the garbage disposal, but now I'm wondering if I shouldn't try to dry it and feed it to my bees as a pollen substitute to stimulate early spring build-up? (Hobbyist beekeepers who don't home-brew could easily find home brewing enthusiasts through beer-making supply stores, and one pound of honey could be traded for a lot of spent yeast...) I, too, hate spending money unnecessarily, and like the idea of utilizing a "waste" product, if there's some benefit. (A) Would this work? (B) Would there be any benefit in mixing the dried yeast with sugar and Crisco to form feeding patties? ---------- > From: MR GA CAMBRAY > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Yeast - some other info >...my advice to a beekeeper, which is probably dangerous advice > as it is practically untested (I have fed brewing yeast to my bees > and they were there two weeks later) would be to go to the local > brewery and get their spent yeast - find some way of heating it to > 80C for twenty minutes - which will kill it and then feed it directly > to the bees together with a bit of sugar - this is a highly > nutritious, easily degestable sort of thing - and because it has > not been heated to about 95C most of the fats and vitamins will be OK > still - this is similar to pollen - I am sure cooked pollen would be > bad for bees. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:02:05 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Mangos no but Litchi honey yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All Interesting to see the thread on mango honey - I remember a while ago a question about litchi honey - and whether it was possible to make it. Well, yesterday I was in Port Alfred (a little coastal town nearby my town) and saw litchi honey on sale there in the local Spar supermarket. It did not day it was imported, so I suspect it would be from the Mpumalanga region (Old Northern Transvaal) which sits at about 28 South. That region has high rainfall and high humidity. I recall once seeing mango honey on sale - I suspect again this would be a cultivar and climate specific honey - as with any flower some years a bizarre plant can yield a powerful flow, others none. Likewise with the litchi the possibility that the bees were straying could not be ruled out. Keep well Garth' Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:52:32 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Yeast info In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > From: Allen Dick > Subject: Re: Yeast - some other info Hi All/Allen Allen wrote: > We'll deal with the California Spray Dry product here for now, since that > is the only one I have found that I can afford. It is about 50c USD per > pound and the torula (torutein CT) that Musson was recommending turns out > to be $5.20 CAD /kg Torula yeast would be a better yeast, but as you say more expensive. I think, judging by the name that Torula yeast is most probably a dried or extracted form of Torula glabrata (yeast taxonomy is confused at best - I think Torula is now classified as a Candida, probably C.utilus). This yeast is highly digestable, has a very thin wall and is being investigated by many research groups (C.utilus) as an alternative protein source for cows and pigs, as it has a great carbohydrate balance and is not as toxic as S.cerevisiae (normal bakers yeast). It may be worth comparing the conversion ration - it may be that the dried yeast you get may be 20% digestable, and the torula 60% giving you a better conversion ratio for the more expensive one, making it in effect cheaper - once again this is conjecture though. > > If grown under hyperoxygenated conditions (IE not in the bottom of a beer > > fermentor) it is very rich in a number of fats, proteins and other > > nutrients which we can digest.... > > Here's the breakdown. Maybe you can say if this is spent and sporulated > yeast or the oxygenated variety? > > Protein 39-48% > Fat 2.3% > Fiber 3.6% > Ash 5.9% > Moisture 3.7% > pH 4-7 > Bulk Density 30-33lbs/ft3 The pH of 4.7 would hint that it is spent brewing yeast, or possibly yeast from a bakers yeast supplier - I think beer has a pH of about 4.5 The fats one would need a breakdown of the types - next year I will be setting up a machine here to analyse the fat/fatty acid composition of my yeasts which I grow. Maybe then you could send a sample and I can tell it if has the essential ones (gamma linoleic and linolenic acids which are probably the most important aspect of the food) These are also heat sensitive and degrade rapidly in bright light and temperatures above 60-80C if I recall right. Should look that up somewhere in my heap of reading material. It is also important that some of these fats can become toxic when denatured. > Minerals > NFE 49.9 > Calcium 21 > Phosporus 10 > Magnesium .06 > Potassium 1.94 > Sodium .26 > Copper 6.0 ppm > Iron 43.0 ppm > Manganese 22.4 ppm > Zinc 24.0 ppm I gather that the minerals that are not pm must be mg - in which case it is interesting to note the low sodium. > Vitamins > E 7.4 iu/lb This suggests very low heat exposure - vit E is very heat sensitive. > B6 14.0 mg/lb > B12 3.9 mcg/lb > Thiamine 16. mg/lb > Niacin 147.0 mg/lb > Pantothenic Acid 6.1 mg/lb > Choline 324.0 mg/lb > Biotin 98.0 mcg/lb > Folic Acid .64 mg/lb > Inositol 2078 mg/lb > Riboflavin 10.1 mg/lb The high riboflavin may damage some yeasts in bee guts (natural yeasts - worth watching for nosema with this.) That is also a lot of inositol - inositol is a sugar alcohol - I wonder if bees can use it? It is used as an artifical sweetener for humans and in sweets for diabetics, but can cause diahorrea (sp?) if too much is consumed as I think it cannot be absorbed, hence it stays in the gut and in the lower intestinal tract it has an osmotic presence - hence the gut cannot absorb moisture out of the faeces and one gets the D word. I don't know if bees have this problem. (This feeds into the reply to Andys post below this) > I gather the spray drying process is just that. The slurry is sprayed > from a nozzle and dries quickly at moderate temperatures. How fast can > yeast sporulate? I think it can do it quite fast. Remember the natural environment of many wild S.cerevisiae strains is in flowers and on fruit skins - where they grow quickly for a few hours when the fruit is wet by rain and they use up exuded sugars, then they sporulate as it dries and wait for the next chance. I sporulate a similar yeast by drying and it takes about half an hour to an hour. If this is spray drying like they do for milk I would geuss it probably happens too fast for the yeast to get it's act together. > I don't know the drying temperature. I haven't tried resusitating the > yeast to see if it is active. It may be worth taking a sample, I know you have a haemocytometer - do the same count on a freshly innoculated volume, count the number of cells, then count again after a few hours. At pH 4.8 and a temperature of about 28C many strains of S.cerevisiae will divide about every 4 hours. An easier route would be to let them be in a growth media for half an hour, then to stain them with some lactophenol blue - this should show up dead cells as blue and live as clear. The next bit: > From: Andy Nachbaur > Subject: Re: Yeast - some other info > >as it is practically untested (I have fed brewing yeast to my bees > >and they were there two weeks later) would be to go to the local > >brewery and get their spent yeast - find some way of heating it to > >80C for twenty minutes - which will kill it and then feed it directly > > Sounds interesting but I would ask if you would do the same with pollen and > what value the pollen would have after "killing" all the yeast in it? No - I would not heat treat pollen. I read a paper a while back by a group from a Dutch agricultural University where they looked at declining pollen viability and nutrition with time. I think heat destroyed it very fast. Likewise, the natural yeast in pollen represent a toolbox that constantly reinnoculates the bees gut allowing it to get rid of rare sugars it cannot proccess (I would geuss) including things like Xylose - wood sugar. > The best yeast I have ever tested and used by the tons for feeding bees was > a product made for forest products waste. It was sold here for many years > as a food flavor enhancement for spicy foods such as potato chips. The > trade name was Wheast and it was not so dead that I could not grown > tremendous colonies on plywood its mother. In fact it would make it very > dangerous to walk on one of my truck beds after several seasons of bee > diet delivery use as you would fall through. Yes - a wood digesting yeast - Xylose fermenting I am sure. I would geuss it is now probably being used a lot in bioremediation of paper/pulp efluent in Canada where the legislation on effluents are becomming extremely strict. That may be an alternative source. Must have been a humorous discovery - the plywood one!! (: > > This forest product, Wheast, was discontinued and the equipment was shipped > to SA.(South America not South Africa) Other products made from corn waste Where did it go in South America - if it was discontinued in the early eighties there is an extremely good chance it ended up in Brazil adjacent to a very large floating paper mill that was put there by some Japanese investor to utilise plantations of a fast growing brazilian tree - and the effluent if turned into wheast would have made great cattle food. > As for my answer to the question on pollen the best pollen that I have ever > feed bees was naturally fermented in closed containers in a 80+ degree f. > room without the addition of any moisture. The resulting product would gag > a maggot, was very dark in color, and smelled like stale beer barf but boy > was it exciting to see what bees would do with it as far as rearing brood > when added about 5-50% to yeast with enough sugar syrup to make a pattie. I > am sure these diets would not be fit for human consumption and never have > compared insect diets to anything I would put in my own month as I am sure > some of the things bees will eat and do well on are not necessarily that > good for us anyway. That is interesting!! I gather bees do this themselves, using among other things Lactobacilli (the ones that make saur kraut - sp?- sour). These produce vast quantities of lactic acid, and also have a veritbale toolbox of little enzymes, many of which would even be able to crack open pollen. > better if allowed to work which is not new information as most should > realize by now that bees do not eat fresh pollen or even fresh stored > pollen but eat a fermented product made from pollen some call be bread. > They do this by adding moisture to the pollen at warm hive temperatures and > then sucking that moisture with the dissolved pollen up into their bodies. > You can tell which pollen cells are being consumed in the hive by looking > for this moisture layer on top of the stored pollen. Bees will even rob I have noticed this - those cells also taste sweet, whereas the others taste powdery, so there is a chance the bees innoculate it, or add sugar to make the pollen germinate (many pollens germinate in the presence of funny sugars like trehalose). Germinated pollen could then be digested with normal lipid digesting, or protein digesting enzymes (they would just eat through the pollen tube and release all the nutrient through the hole) > Dusty and we were losing much of our wealth to pesticides. One thing I > learned and have said before was they all added TANG to their diets and did > not know why scientifically but said it was necessary. Maybe it had What is TANG? Anyhow - this is interesting stuff. I need to read up a bit and put in some more. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:21:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Irish Beekeeping Course Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have just received the notification of the Summer Beekeeping Course to be held from 19th to 24th July 1999 (both dates inclusive) at Gormanston College about 30 miles (48km) north of Dublin Ireland. This will be my third year attending, and I have found it so beneficial that I am again telling the list members about it. This year the Guest Lecturer will be Mr Ian McLean, BSc NDB from Ormskirk in the United Kingdom. The cost of the course is IEP108.00 or GBP105.00 or about US$170.00 (I hope my dollar conversion is reasonably accurate), for full board and accommodation in Dormitory cubicles. I show below an outline of the week's programme. * A full course of Lectures in modern beekeeping. * Separate lectures for Beginner and Advanced students (you can pick and mix if you wish). * Practical Apiary Work, including Queen Rearing at Out Apiary (bring veils etc.) * Locating Drone Congregation Areas. * Work Shops on Beeswax Products, Making Mead, Making Hives, work with Microscopes, Planting Trees for Bees etc. * Furniture Polishing with Bees Wax and Shellac. * Handcrafts * Visit to local place of interest. * Annual Congress of F.I.B.K.A. * Display of Modern Beekeeping Equipment. * Irish National Honey Show (Classes open to overseas visitors). * Golf Competitions. * Tennis Courts (bring equipment). * Heated Swimming Pool. * Nature Trails. Each year, an increasing number of overseas beekeepers attend the Course. You may also wish to bring the family along (children most welcome) and have some fun, as there will be plenty to keep them entertained. The College is only one mile from the beach (yes the sun does shine occasionally in Ireland!), and for those who wish to talk bees into the evening whilst imbibing Guinness and other beverages, there are two lovely pubs just a short walk from the College. The Convener of the Course is: Mr Michael Woulfe Railway House Midleton Co Cork Ireland Telephone + 353 21 631011 If you have any difficulty in contacting Mr Woulfe, just send me an e mail and I will put him in touch with you. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:54:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Bees for Nagorno Karabakh Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I do hope that it is not intended to swamp the local population of bees with 10 times their number of packages from elsewhere. Reading from paragraphs 15, 16, 141 and 142 of Wedmore it seems that there are several local strains of bees in the Caucasus and they have notably long tongues to deal best with the local flora. They have exceptionally sweet temper and a hardy disposition. The grey mountain strain are prolific though moderate swarmers, inclined to give one large swarm. They are not disposed to robbing; they work well in bad weather and winter well. I suggest the Save the Children Fund (which is a charity I support) would do best by spending their million dollars over a number of years and targeting the money mainly on educating children in modern beekeeping methods and showing local beekeepers and wood workers how to make their own equipment, if necessary providing woodworking and wax processing machinery. In particular any hives provided should be made locally to help skills and employment. Given the knowledge the local people should be able to improve the productivity of their beekeepers greatly and possibly start their own export trade with their own queens. It would appear to be too good a gene pool to waste. Thornes, the UK hive makers are justifiably proud to have recently won a contract from the UN to supply Iraq with thousands of hives (the parts of Iraq not governed by Sodem) . Although it's great for Thornes how much better it would have been for the UN to have spent our money (those of us who are not behind with our payments) in the area where the need is. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day: teach him to fish and you feed him for life. Chris Slade