From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:03 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27231 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11039 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171651.MAA11039@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:51:58 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9901E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 140335 Lines: 3342 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:56:51 -0500 Reply-To: mayortb@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: On swarm prevention MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Imrie, I have recently discovered your Pink pages and consider your insights on management very similar to my own. I have been mulling the theories on swarm prevention lately and reviewing timetables for reversing deep brood chambers. If a keeper maintains his colonies with 2 deeps for brood chambers and departs on an aggressive campaign of reversing every 10-14 days he should significantly increase the efficiency of the queens laying because he allows her to do what her natural tendencies are, keep walking upward to lay eggs. With a good eye and diligence you can keep her in the bottom box, laying. Here's the rub, A good queen can lay a frame in 1 day. Considering good pollen and honey stores as picture perfect on the frames( See "The Hive and the Honeybee:,1992, Figure 2, 2A, pg. 78-9 ), she will lay a complete frame per day (personal observation, today I counted 3 deep frames of eggs! in 1 box.). Thus, in 10 days she has laid out 1, 10 frame deep box. She moves to the next box and begins to lay in that box. 10 days later she moves up, ( you've diligently braved the spring rains to maintain the reversal schedule) and begins again. It is 20 days since she started laying in this box the last time. The worker bees finish the pupal stage on the 20th day and begin to emerge on the 21st ( Laidlaw, 1979 "The Hive..."'1992, pg. 83). The timing is very close and in fact will run over top of each other as the adults must clean out the cells and prepare them to be re-laid and there are other delays. As the season rolls on drones will appear, using a cell for a minimum of 24 days ("The Hive and the Honeybee" pg. 83, 1992), The increase in the field force will add nectar and pollen to cells - hopefully (foraging begins 18-19 days after hatching, "The Hive..., 1992, fig. 5, pg. 86). Again, we see a cycle setup to last less time than the cycle of egg - dult. Less and less cells become available to lay in as we help the queen lay more efficiently. Don't forget we're feeding the ladies 1:1 to help 'em move along. This means no matter what we do, eventually the queen will spend idle time looking for any old cell to lay in maybe even supers if there's any available. The workers have built swarm cells along the lower or outer edges of the frames and if everything is proceeding as it should she will have to lay in these cells as there will be nowhere else to lay. Seems to me there are several ways to break this cycle of having the queen return to a box to lay before there are any cells available to lay in. 1) Use a box with sufficient frames to allow the brood to exit their cocoons and the cells cleaned prior to the queen arriving to lay in the cells again. Say 11-13 frames (heavy). 2) Use a larger frame so that the queen cannot lay an entire frame in 1 day. Thus it would take longer than 10 days to fill 1 box. 3) Periodically remove everything from the frame (s) and replace it with clean drawn comb to give the queen more room. 4) Use more than 2 brood chambers to give the queen 30 days (deeps) or 21-30 days (mediums) of laying room. 5) Combination of the above. Not many of these are practical and some silly, but would provide a solution in this theoretical exercise. Comments Welcome Thom Bradley NC Certified Beekeeper (trying not to be a BEEHaver) 20 colonies, 3 yrs. Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: '99 Norfolk County (MA) Bee School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tuesday Feb. 9th, 1999 The Norfolk County (MA) Beekeepers Association is offering a seven week course on fundamental BEEKEEPING. The course is intended to be of interest to those who might like to start beekeeping as well as those who would just like to attend informative sessions. The classes are held at the NORFOLK COUNTY AGRICULTURAL HIGH SCHOOL , Media Building Cafeteria, 460 Main St. (Rt1A) WALPOLE ,MA on Tuesday evenings. A registration fee of $35.00 per family covers the cost of the text, audiovisual materials and other expenses. Registration will begin on Feb.9th,1999 at 7:00pm. Also there will be three outdoor sessions in April, June and August handling live bees.Those who successfully complete the course will be awarded certificates.For more info contact: Garry Libby at 617-327-4624 LibBEE@msn.com or Ray Hennessey at 508-384-7897. RHennessey@norfolk-county.com Garry Libby Boston, USA 42: N 71: W LibBEE@email msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:27:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Essential oils for Varroa etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beefriends, >Stefan Stangaciu says > " * the essential oils are NATURAL substances; in correct amounts they >will never hurt somebody, on the contrary, it will help to get rid of >many diseases, or will give just a better respiration." > First, this sentence contradicts to itself. If you "get rid of" something, you "hurt somebody" and usually kill it. Second, who is hurt more, an agent of a decease or your patient i.e. the bees? An interesting set of diagrams on account of using vegetable oil one can see in: http://www.biavl.dk/vid-1.htm#olie-eng (It was spread in Bee-List before 3 weeks.) One can see the oil kills to 95% of Varroa mites and from 20 to 90% of bees. My question is: Does the Food Grade Mineral Oil acts the same way? Maybe, there are available similar research results in the WEB? Best regards Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt ICQ# : 4201422 http://www.lei.lt 55 N, 24 E ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:12:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Sr. Monica Ryan" Subject: Risk involved with old combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all Beekeeping Friends Another topic for discussion - Apart from the fact that old combs might carry the spores of some disease, is there any other risk involved in giving such combs to the bees to rebuild? I would appreciate any answers. I am grateful for much valuable information received onother topics. Thank you all. Sr. Catherine Duffy (Sr. Monica - typist) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:48:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Alternative remedies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Some years ago I was troubled by bee stings so I tried a homoeopathic remedy, I believe it was called Apis Mel. The bottle of 1 a day tablets lasted 30 days during the month of May and, sure enough during the time I took them I didn't receive a single sting. Does anybody know whether this or any other alternative remedy works after the event and can be used to treat hives for example? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:27:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Essential oils for varroa, OTHER bee diseases control and human beings. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Al Lipscomb To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Mittwoch, 27. Januar 1999 21:36 Subject: Re: Essential oils for varroa, OTHER bee diseases control and human beings. >At 06:35 AM 1/26/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Seems to me that we want to keep our honey pure; despite the good doctor's >>claims that people will find "natural (bio) aroma-honey" attractive. I'm >>amazed that so many people seem to believe in the treatment without >>substantial, quantitative results. > >What scares me is the thought that just because a substance is found from a >"natural" source it must have some special powers that should exempt it >from the same testing that a "man-made" chemical should have. It brings to >mind the quacks of the old days when extracts from crude oil (itself a >"natural substance") were to be ingested to solve any number of ailments. > > >Al Lipscomb >arl@suncoast.org 1275 4932 DFA1 97EB D3A1 903D 7563 2936 A66B 86B3 >MCSE AA4YU My dear Al, Be sure that Natural Medicine is not anymore an empiric method as it may be still in Papua New Guinea or similar areas on our Earth. There are many thousands of studies related to the essential oils... Most of the active compounds from the essential oils have been studied as you suggest above... Germany, United Kingdom, France have already a good tradition in this. Aromatherapy, like apitherapy too, has strong scientific bases. If you want to find these bases and take advantage of them, you need to work (study) a bit more, and open first your mind and soul... Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro www.sci.fi/~apither www.beesting.com PS Our intuition and imagination (creativity) can develop only if we eliminate the "scare" from our mind... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:11:14 -0700 Reply-To: brayton@gene.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cheryl Brayton Subject: I have a bumble bee nest in my roof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I live in a small cottage in the SF Bay Area. I recently noticed that I have a nest of bumblebees living in my roof (this is a 1930's cottage w/a pointed overhang roof over the front door -- they are going in an air vent by one of the eaves). It does not get cold enough here for most critters to hibernate -- plus it is starting to warm. I have remanents of an orchard on my property -- while I believe the bumble bees to be beneficial, I am very nervous about them being in the roof. I wonder how big the nest is s I see a bee coming/going about every 30-40 seconds. Would you suggest calling a bee person to have them relocated or leave them? What are my risks leaving them -- I need to start working in the yard and when I go out they often "buzz" me -- I'm not overly nervous, but maybe should be. I did have a man come out last summer and relocated 2 yellowjacket nests live (he said they are beneficial indirectly to bee hive activity). I didn't like the idea of killing them, so it was fine w/me. I asked his opinion on the current situation and he said he might have to drill holes, or pull boards off to get his arm in --. Any suggestions you might have will be welcome. I would like to figure out the best way to handle the situation and stay safe. Thank you for your time. Brayton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:32:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: Olda Vancata To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Donnerstag, 28. Januar 1999 02:53 Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. >> From: Stefan Stangaciu > > >Stefan > >> * there are already too many pollutants in our bee products; > >I agree. Especially when thinking on how much water, air etc is >circulated through the beehive during the year and the environment >outside the beehive is not the cleanest one (pollutants buried >thousands of km). > >> * there are at least a dozen of very effective ways to keep under >> control varroa and other bee diseases through alternative methods; > >Can you please give me an account of 12 alternative and effective >methods how to keep varroa under control? Can you for each method >describe: a- method; b - efficiency in %; c - time consumed for total >treatment? > >Thanx > >\vov Hello dear friend, You make me smile... :-)) This above work shall be done by people like you, having great experience in beekeeping. I am just a "hobbyist" in beekeeping but an expert, I dare to say, in apitherapy. As an apitherapist I am very much concerned of the beehive's products QUALITY, EFFICIENCY, but also, on LONG TERM on the potential risks given by strong poisons as are used now by the "chemical lovers"... Anyway, your above idea to send all our List-friends a dozen of alternative methods is good enough to try to make now such a list. The "homework" with: a- method; b - efficiency in %; c - time consumed for total treatment, shall be done, isn't it, by experts in beekeeping like you. I have already said that there is out there, in Internet, in medical libraries, in research laboratories all over the world a HUGE Data Base related to the pharmacologically properties of the NATURAL (groups) of substances. Such a huge Data Base we have already in our Apimondia's Apitherapy Department. So, the information exists, you need only to search for it, if you have reached the conclusion that you must to change your methodology towards an "ecological", 100% natural beekeeping. Coming back to your very nice above invitation, here is a list with alternative methods to control varroa and many other bee diseases. Please keep in mind that, like in Natural (Naturopathic) Medicine, the success comes faster when you use SEVERAL METHODS instead of only one. The "time" required to apply these methods... It is only a question of "routine" and "learning" how to apply a new method. Once you know it very well, you can apply it fast. OK... Let's start the list: I) Use of ORGANIC ACIDS: * formic acid; * oxalic acid; * lactic acid; * acetic acid. II) Use of MEDICINAL PLANTS (Phytotherapy): * Nicotiana tabacum, Chrysantheme vulgare (Tanacetum vulgare), and many other plants (in short fumigation followed by catching of "drunk" varroa on the "sticky" bottom); many such plants can be used directly in the usual "smokers". * Herbal tea to increase the bee colony's immune system and/or to fight directly varroa: - poplar buds; - pine buds; - eucalyptus leaves; - thyme; - common yarrow; - equinacea; - Artemisia absynthium etc., etc. III) Use of ESSENTIAL OILS (Aromatherapy): * like in phytotherapy, there is a very large list with useful and potential useful substances/products: - wintergreen oil; - thyme oil (natural one!) - eucalyptus oil; - lavender oil; - rosemary oil; - pine oil etc., etc. * even if the above oils will not destroy 100% the varroa, but only over 60- 90% of them (figures already given in many reports), they will help, as "adjutants" the physiological functions of the diseased colony; please do not forget that the bees are not dying directly because of varroa, but because of the "anemia", viral and bacterial infections which follows or are simultaneous to the varroa parasitism. IV) Use of ...bee products (apitherapy): - thyme, eucalyptus, rosemary honey; - propolis different EXTRACTS, mixed with HONEY + POLLEN (Bee bread) + ROYAL JELLY. The bee's immune system relies, like all other physiological functions on a source of energy; a very good food will give enough nutrients, vitamins, enzymes, trace elements etc. to fight the potential diseases associated with the varroa's presence. Very often, bad, greedy beekeepers are really starving the bees by taking from the hives much more than they should do... Worse than that, they replace the honey (which has THOUSANDS of different USEFUL substances) with ...white sugar, which is a very, very POOR food (contains as you know only two substances) V) Use of drone brood removal VI) Use of bottom sticky floors VII) Use of wired, mesh, open bottom floors VIII) Artificial swarming + organic acids/aromatherapy treatment IX) Use of physical methods like: HYPERTHERMIA (HEAT); a short but high temperature exposure (about 400C), applied several times will kill most of the varroas, but also many viruses and bacteria + will activate better the bee's immune system. X) Use of paraffin oil, in external treatment. XI) Genetical breeding XII) Combination of all above methods... This topic related to alternative treatments is extremely complex. I would be very happy to see in our future discussions related to this subject more flexibility, friendship and desire to cooperate together (why not?) with biologists, biochemists, geneticians from big Universities. Only together we can find the best answers! Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro www.sci.fi/~apither www.beesting.com PS If you are interested I can send you some references on alternative treatments against varroa and other bee diseases. Ideally will be to start yourself, with curiosity, energy and open mind the search for scientific literature related to alternative treatments. GOOD LUCK!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:19:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Murray and friends, Please see below my answers. Thanks. Stefan Stangaciu. >> * "Apistan & Co". are extremely powerful poisons; > >This is, I'm afraid, more of the usual OTT stuff regarding Apistan and >its cousin Bayvarol. This opens a whole line previously done to death >over and over again. > >Fluvalinate and Flumethrin, the active ingredients in the two >treatments, are synthetic pyrethroids. This family of insecticides are >amongst the most benign treatments available. They are man made >adaptations of chemicals found in plants of the chrysanthemum family >(pyrethrums), and, when correctly administered, place small, controlled >dosages into the colony. > >They are nowhere near as noxious as formic acid. I agree that everything depends on the dose. But you will never convince me, nor any other MD or ND that the toxicity of the above substances are less or equal with that of the essential oils. Can you tell us what is the LD50 for the pyrethroids mentioned above? I'll try to get for you the same LD50 but for some of the essential oils and we'll compare the results, OK? >> * NEVER, a MD, ND etc. will accept with open and light "heart" the >>presence of these poisons in a traditional "pure", "natural" product; > >I agree, yet many people advocate taking propolis regularly. A UK based >academic I was talking to fairly recently told me of research into >contamination of propolis, and the samples were ones on retail sale, >which revealed alarming levels of contaminants, especially lead which >was present in such quantities as to be downright dangerous. Quibbling >over of honey from Apistan treated colonies, and then advocating eating >propolis which is a magnet for environmental contaminants, seems to me >inconsistent. The contamination of propolis and other bee products is, in part, the fault of beekeepers which use also chemical methods which you advocate with such a passion... The fact that in the environment there are other chemicals (pollutants) should be a strong reason to try alternative ways to treat the bee diseases, isn't it? If out there there is already a lot of pollution, will you start poisoning your body by smoking cigarettes too? Most of the actual good companies have found ways to take out the lead from propolis, but do you know any which is able to get out of wax, honey etc. your pyrethroids? >> * the essential oils are NATURAL substances; in correct amounts they >>will never hurt somebody, on the contrary, it will help to get rid of >>many >>diseases, or will give just a better respiration. > >The natural/synthetic debate is entirely bogus. Many natural substances >are more noxious than many of the synthetic ones on offer. You just have >to take each treatment on its merits and reach a balanced judgement. >Whether the substance has been synthetically produced or obtained direct >from nature is not particularly relevant. There are after all some >EXTREMELY dangerous 'natural' poisons out there. Yes, I agree, my friend, with your last statement. So, why shall we add more in our bee products?! On the other hand, a chemically, man made substance is NOT always identical with a natural one! Have a better look in relative recent chemistry and biochemistry studies than tell me if you got my point. Also, the big problem which has given dangerous new varroa strains resistant to "Apistan et. Co" is that it was used only a small group of substances... Believe me my friend, varroa has better biochemical resources to fight ANY chemical substance, if you will not respect the severe administration methods with these "one type" treatment. To respect ENTIRELY the administration of chemical treatments is IMPOSSIBLE! It will be always people, even your beekeeper neighbor, which will NOT treat their hives perfectly. I do not know why am I pressing so much in this direction... You heard already of varroa resistant to Apistan, so, let's move in other direction. If "Apistan et. Co" will be not replaced SOON by other methods, we may have big problems in the future... >> * if you do not want the essential oils in your products, as >>"contaminants", you can do the "aromatherapy" of your bee colonies, as >>you do now with your chemical method, AFTER you will collect your >>bee products, e.g. late in fall... >Three years ago we bought 200 hives from the widow of someone who had >been using Thymol. You probably do not know, but try to find out if was natural thyme oil or just the artificial version? For exactly what I do not know and could not ask him >as unfortunately he took the reason with him. The hives smelt >differently, and it took two years to get rid of the smell. The honey >produced from the hives smelt different, and was in fact rejected in >Germany because of the smell and taste. We still catch the occasional >whiff of it. I appreciate that when it is your own hive you may be able >to put up with this, but try selling the honey on when its flavor and >smell have been tainted! I agree with you here that thyme do not smell so nice, BUT: * do you know what was the dose used by that beekeeper? * do you know if he used it, as I mentioned above, AFTER he has collected his products? I mentioned in a previous message to the list that there are MANY essential oils which has been already used and seems to be very effective, when applied correctly. So, if you do not like the thyme smell, you can chose other essential oils, like pine oil, rosemary, lavender etc... Again, normally you will use them late in Fall and combined with several other alternative methods. >Authorities to whom I have talked warn that essential oils alone are NOT >an effective way of dealing with varroa. Their effectiveness is less >than current controls and is highly erratic. Who are these authorities? Are you sure 100% that they made well their "home-work"? Did they really study at least a couple of the alternative methods I mentioned a couple of hours ago? Are you sure that they are not receiving personal advantages (financial, vanity etc.) by promoting the present obsolete (in my opinion) chemical treatments? I may be too aggressive here, my friends, but this varroa problem is extremely important for ALL of us, not only for the beekeepers, but also for the normal consumers and more important for the ill people which may have their last hope in the natural, high quality honey and other bee products... Unless you are operating on >a small scale and can treat every colony in optimum conditions you >should be very wary of adopting this strategy. Research is continuing >all the time and an effective system may become available soon. Yes, it must come very soon! >> I do not believe that practicing alternative methods is a "threat" >>towards the bee "industry"... > >Possibly not, but I would not want an 'alternative methods' user as my >neighbor. I just would not want the re-invasion problem from those >colonies of his/hers which were collapsing because treatment X or Y did >not work. Using unproven/uncertain treatments is not a friendly act to >those around you. In Bible it is written that you should first look into your eyes, to see if they are clean enough, than to look in the neighbor's ones... Again, there are many areas in this world (Italy, Canada etc.), where the "Apistanotherapy" was used by all beekeepers in a certain area. However, the varroa has survived... So, my friend, if you will continue with perseverance to use ONLY Apistan & alike, you will endanger your neighbors and will get probably in trouble for that... >> I believe this is the ..salvation! > >Again possibly, but I feel that the bee breeders are those with whom the >ultimate salvation lies. Yes, the bee breeders will give us the best results, but: - their answer/methods may come too late... - I believe that varroa will finally persist to exist in Nature, with ALL our "clever" anti-varroa methods; even if it sounds weird for some of you, varroa and other bee enemies, are necessary in the Nature's balance! The problem is not to destroy varroa, but to diminish it's "powers" and "aggresivity", or much better, to increase the bee colony's resistance towards it. As one of my best friends told us in a beekeeping club 4 years ago, we must accept to live with varroa for a long period of time from now on... The main problem is that this co-abitation should be done with minimum risks for our bees and for our clients. Friendly yours, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro www.sci.fi/~apither www.beesting.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:35:31 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Feral Colony donations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, The demise and resurgence of feral colonies in recent time have got me to thinking about the benefits as well as the problems they can cause. As an eternal optimist, I like to focus on the positive aspects of having feral bee colonies again inhabit the local woods. I have not seen a wild bee for ten years in my area. I think this will change soon. Several new beekeepers have begun apiaries in a 15 mile radius of my home apiary. Please consider the following; The feral colonies that inhabited bee trees in days of old, died to mite predation for the most part, so the remaining colonies were somehow resistant. Beekeepers continue to keep bees and as a result, swarms will issue forth from various colonies through out the country. With this in mind, I propose a plan for discussion here on the Bee-l. Why not let our best colonies swarm and replace the feral bee population? Let's say 1 % of colonies are allowed to swarm and establish colonies on their own. Those which survive will surely be resistant to anything that would kill them. If we all allowed only one of our colonies to swarm, the feral colony count would go up and eventually benefit the beekeeper as in the past. de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 01/29/99 07:35:31 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:16:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by beeman@home.com to the BEE-L list at CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quoting of previously posted material. ------------------ Original message (ID=2DEE46) (66 lines) -------------------- From: "Darkpast" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:24:10 -0800 Ok, here's my 2 cents worth, you get what you pay for. How can you expect a honey producer to risk not using chemicals inorder to produce a "chemical free" product, then turn around and only want to pay pennies for his product? It's time to face reality gents, because of the environment that our bees are forced to live in, they simply can not survive (let alone produce a surplus crop) with out chemical treatment. Yes, I know that everyone has that one hive that lives without chemicals, but take away the chemicals and all your going to have IS THAT ONE HIVE. So the consumer needs to understand the predicament that we all are in, the days of pure/healthy natural honey are in the past. Until that "promised strain" comes about, we have to live with what we've got and not what we'd like. Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:07:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Re: Langstroth and bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Chester wrote: >I have been looking through the 1853 edition of Langstroth's book, > _The Hive and the Honeybee_, but have not been able to find any >specific mention of bee space. Does he discuss his discovery in >that book, and, if so, where? The bee space concept was known before Langstroth's 1852 bee hive invention. Huber, Prokopovitch, Dzierzon, the Greeks and others were using movable frame hives that suggest some understanding of a "proper space" before Langstroth. However, none of these earlier hives were as practical as Langstroth's hanging-frame hive. Langstroth's bee hive used the bee-space concept to a clever and practical advantage, but it is not accurate to say that he discovered the bee space. In a later edition of Langstroth's book (1884), he writes: "The use of the Huber hive had satisfied me, that with proper precautions the combs might be removed without enraging the bees, and that these insects were capable of being tamed to a surprising degree. Without knowledge of these facts, I should have regarded a hive permitting the removal of the combs, as quite too dangerous for practical use...." "One thing, however, was still wanting. The cutting of the combs from their attachments to the sides of the hive, was attended with much loss of time both to myself and the bees. This led me to invent a method by which the combs were attached to movable frames, so suspended in the hives as to touch neither the top, bottom, nor sides. By this device the combs could be removed at pleasure, without any cutting, and speedily transferred to another hive." (page 15) The hive dimensions in Langstroth's book support a good bee-space, and his "Bee-keeper's Axioms" show an extraordinary understanding of bees. A page related to this general subject is on my web site, in the Beekeeping History section at http://home.earthlink.net/~jcaldeira/beekeeping/ -John John Caldeira jcaldeira@earthlink.net Dallas, Texas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:48:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David C. Williams" Subject: ground bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Re: ground bees we had carpenter bees nest in some roots in the yard. Carpenter bees = are very distructive and I think that they need to be eliminated. The = carpentery bee looks a lot like a bumble bee. Thanks, Dave Williams ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David C. Williams" Subject: capturing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am a novice bee-haver and still have a lot to learn. Today I ran = into a lady who has 2 whiskey barrels in a storage buikding in which = bees have nested. She told me that I could capture the bees if I want = to. What is the best way to get the bees out of the barrels? =20 Thanks, Dave Williams ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:39:09 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Zinc and beekeepers Comments: To: bee-farm@juno.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Justin/Al Taking zinc is a great idea - even if it does not affect you sting counts. Zinc defficiency is prevalent in the us (some say up to 60% of the population) - zinc does not stay in your system for long - hence you can be zinc defficient in the morning, but OK after supper etc - varying energy levels. Zinc is very important in fat metabolism - I would geuss it is therefore important in repairing sting damage as bee phospholipases disolve fats damaging cells etc. More efficient fat metabolism, more efficient repair. Zinc is directly related to male sex drive - more zinc more sex drive. So hey - both types of ladies may like a guy or hate a guy depending on zinc intake! : ) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:07:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eric Bullard Subject: Re: capturing bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii First of all, make sure you have the complete bee suit with gauntlets before you try this heavy intrusion. I see two solutions: 1. The hive is constantly looking for the best "home" for their colony possible. They have "recon" bees perfoming just this function regularly. The good news is that the standard hive box is about as ideal as it can get for them. Just placing a hive box next to the barrels with drawn comb and a little bait (pheromone or often just a tin of suger water or honey inside the box) might be enough. I have drawn a few swarms out of hard to get at places this way. 2. If you can open the barrels without destroying them (I'm sure the owner doesn't want them destroyed), you can always cut the wild rounds of wax away and put them in the hive box previously mentioned. Careful not to destroy the queen in the process. The workers should follow. But make sure the barrel is no longer the safe home they thought it was. If option one doesn't do the trick in about 12 hours, go to option 2. If option 1 works. That is the easiest hive you ever captured. good luck. Hello all, I am a novice bee-haver and still have a lot to learn. Today I ran = into a lady who has 2 whiskey barrels in a storage buikding in which = bees have nested. She told me that I could capture the bees if I want = to. What is the best way to get the bees out of the barrels? =20 Thanks, Dave Williams ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:28:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Risk involved with old combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-29 07:51:38 EST, you write: << Another topic for discussion - Apart from the fact that old combs might carry the spores of some disease, is there any other risk involved in giving such combs to the bees to rebuild? >> I have some combs that are probably 30-40 years old, so I know it's possible for the bees to keep refurbishing them. The Europeans practice a lot more comb renewal than Americans, and frequently scold us for such lax methods. They are probably right, tho it is quite expensive to renew the brood comb, and there's not a lot of money in beekeeping right now (unless you have an outside job to support your beekeeping - and you're puttin' it IN). You mention disease. Of course the major concern is american foulbrood, but there probably are a number of minor funguses and diseases. When irradiation is used to kill foulbrood, ALL organisms that live in the boxes are, of course, also killed. Those who have done this usually observe the bees do remarkably well. At midsummer, I dumped a hive a couple years ago, that had foulbrood, onto foundation and fed them heavily. They popped out the foundation immediately, as a swarm would, then built back into a very strong colony. In the spring, they made twice the honey the others in the yard made. So there's two anecdotal evidences of the fact that renewing comb is a good idea. Another factor that is sometimes mentioned, is that the cocoons of the pupae are left in the cell each time they emerge. These are very thin, but eventually the cell becomes quite a bit smaller than normal, and so bees do not develop into full size in old brood comb. There's no question in my mind that old comb should be renewed periodically, the question being, where is the point of economic advantage. For me I think perhaps every ten years is what I should shoot for....... Dave Green www.pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:44:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: I have a bumble bee nest in my roof Comments: To: brayton@gene.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-29 08:01:20 EST, brayton@gene.COM writes: << I live in a small cottage in the SF Bay Area. I recently noticed that I have a nest of bumblebees living in my roof (this is a 1930's cottage w/a pointed overhang roof over the front door -- they are going in an air vent by one of the eaves). It does not get cold enough here for most critters to hibernate -- plus it is starting to warm. I have remanents of an orchard on my property -- while I believe the bumble bees to be beneficial, I am very nervous about them being in the roof. I wonder how big the nest is s I see a bee coming/going about every 30-40 seconds. Would you suggest calling a bee person to have them relocated or leave them? What are my risks leaving them -- I need to start working in the yard and when I go out they often "buzz" me -- I'm not overly nervous, but maybe should be. >> I seriously doubt they are bumblebees. For one thing bumblebees rarely pay any attention to humans, unless they are coming straight on to sting. For another thing, it is too early for much bumblebee activity, you'd only see an occasional queen looking for a nesting site, and that probably a little later. I'm sure you had enough cold this year to kill off any bumblebees that "tried" to overwinter. They don't store up food like honeybees, so just a few days without nectar would kill the colony. Around here carpenter bees are common in early spring. I haven't seen any yet, but expect to, with the 80 degree days we've been having. They are often mistaken for bumblebees. Drone carpenter bees (they cannot sting) will often hover around you. If fact they will face you off, and you can sometimes dance with them. Try tossing a pebble, they'll chase it. I suspect that anything that moves is investigated as a possible mate. One time I watched carpenter bee drones chase a couple wrens that were building a nest. Each time they flew, it would chase them. They were scolding it at every opportunity, but it didn't make any difference. Hilarious! Carpenter bees bore a small hole in old wood to nest. They are solitary bees in that they do not have an organized colony, but they are gregarious, in that they will often nest in groups. The damage they do to wood is usually just cosmetic. Unless they are in huge numbers, and causing serious wood damage, I'd just live with them. The males (the ones that will follow you) can't sting, and the females will go about their work with almost no chance of stinging, unless you catch them in your hand. Honeybee keepers would not be interested in either carpenter bees or bumblebees. And, as you say, they are valuable pollinators for your fruit trees. Dave Green SC USA www.pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:56:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Feral Colony donations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-29 08:05:52 EST, you write: << Why not let our best colonies swarm and replace the feral bee population? Let's say 1 % of colonies are allowed to swarm and establish colonies on their own. Those which survive will surely be resistant to anything that would kill them. >> Well, when we have a bad swarming season, we kid about our "civic duty" to replenish feral bees. And it is usually more than 1%! But bees are our livestock, and those swarms are our "calves." What cattleman can afford to let his calves run off and get lost in the woods? They cost a lot of money to produce. So, sorry, I'm going to do all I can to prevent swarming. Besides, my stock is all treated for varroa, so how could it have evidenced varroa resistance. I'm more interested in long lasting feral swarms, not the bee trees replenished by my own swarms. They usually last only one season. Dave Green SC USA www.pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:58:06 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Small hive beetle - Lloyds questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Lloyd/All These are a number of interesting questions which Lloyd posed: > freezing temperatures. However, they froze some larvae for 12 hours (or so, > I forget exactly) at 10 degrees F (-12 C.) and when thawed they were fine! > Scary stuff! The beetles and larvae are both extremely tough - as people who have had them survive in a solar extractor will aggree! I don't think the handle frost very well, but because the adult beetles overwinter in colonies that survive. I have never seen bees removing larvae during winter, but have seen beetles in winter. In beetle infested areas in the US ask people to check in front of their hives? > Implied here, and in your message where you talked about your observation > hive, is that when larvae are seen "it is too late". If I have the Not neccessarily - in the observation hives I have run since then I have always noticed the occasional larvae on the bottom in the mornings - but the bees carry them out very fast. > combination of your and Shim's comments correct the story seems to be > "seeing beetles in a hive is not bad, but seeing larvae is a disaster!" Is > that more or less right? In other words, there does not seem to be a level It is basically correct - it one has larvae gushing from a brood frame it is a disaster - the bees will leave. If however it is just larvae here and there it is normal. > of larvae infestation that is visible to a beekeeper and still harmless to a > hive? Yes - the bees can cope with a certain amount - but I think some stress may push them into the abys. > If that is the case, and since beetles seem to be endemic in S.A., larvae > must "normally" be elsewhere than in a beehive, and the beetles must be > attracted to the hives from locations elsewhere. Feral colonies? Another > host? No, there is always a background level of larvae in the hives - when I extract fresh supers I always catch a few in the sieves - never more than say ten a super, but they are there - I gather in the pollen etc in the supers. Feral colonies tend to have very few beetles - I did a lot of hive removals (180+) over the last few years and was always intrigued by that, but have a theory that a wild hive is able to propolise all hidey holes up - of course we keep breaking the seals in our hives so there are always more places to hide. The beetles can eat strawberries! > there is brood." Are you being specific with your reference to BEETLES, or > do you mean LARVAE? I suspect the latter, which implies that beetles are Oops - yes I meant larvae - I tend to call both beetles. Yes - the beetles lay eggs and the larvae destroys the brood that remains - long before wax moths have even thought about it. Ants don't eat the larvae, and neither do honey guides and other birds. Because they are adapted I geuss to living in honey (high sugar content) they are just about bullet proof - and very difficult to even squash! > actually laying eggs in the hives, and the bees are somehow eliminating > those eggs or very young larvae. When the bees are gone, the larvae can > take over. Correct. > I for one, was around well before we had mites in the US and survived them, > despite being almost wiped out twice. Moreover, I was never as concerned > about the effect of the mites as I am about the beetles! Yes - the beetles may be quite scary -this coming year will show us. The big thing about the beetles is they can fly a long way, they can fly with swarms, and they are 'smart' - the varroa are just parasites - these are invaders. Hence they are difficult to control. The varroa lifecycle takes a few weeks to reach a bad point - beetles can trash a hive in a few days if one does something wrong. Beetles can multiply in a dead infecting hives nearbye in short period of time - like a few weeks. This makes them a potentially big threat in theory - as I say we must wait for evidence of this. Thanks for all the interesting questions and insights! Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:33:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Feral Colony donations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ernie Gregoire wrote: > If we all allowed only one of our colonies to swarm, the feral colony > count would go up and eventually benefit the beekeeper as in the > past. A few thoughts: I have not missed Apistan tratements both spring and fall since 1996. I could not claim that ANY of my hives are "survivors" due to beekeeper intervention. Furthermore, feral colonies may not be the benefit Ernie envisions. Some have speculated that feral hives are the pockets of survival for varroa, causing post-treatment reinfestation of kept hives. One cannot assume that a feral hive not able to stand up to varroa will die instantly. It may take up to two years for a feral hive to finally collapse from varroa infestation, all the while serving as a breeding ground for mites which can infest nearby colonies. I highly doubt that the silver bullet we are hoping breeders to produce will come from a serendipitous discovery of a super swarm. Natural selection is a slow and sometimes painful process. I do believe that the ultimate solution to the varroa problem will come from breeders, but it won't happen by accident. In the meantime I'll try to keep my bees at home and use my swarms for replacements and increase. Aaron Morris - thinking a swarm in hand is worth two in the woods! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:47:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Carpenter bees (was ground bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In one post to BEE-L Dave Williams wrote: > (carpenter bees) are very distructive and I think that they need to > be eliminated... and in a subsequent post to BEE-L Dave Williams wrote: > I am a novice bee-haver and still have a lot to learn. Yes, there is a lot to learn. Carpenter bees are unfortunate recipients of a bad name. Unlike other destructive insects bearing the carpenter moniker (ants and termites), carpenter bees do not bore extensive tunnels into structures which can cause structural failure. For the most part damage caused carpenter bees is merely cosmetic. Advice that carpenter bees should be eliminated is alarmist, poor advice. If you have carpenter bees, relax, don't worry, enjoy them. You are fortunate to be treated to a nature show up close and personal! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:48:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. In-Reply-To: <14090028105347@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Stefan > > A UK based academic I was talking to fairly recently told me of > > research into contamination of propolis, and the samples were ones > > on retail sale, which revealed alarming levels of contaminants, > > especially lead which was present in such quantities as to be > > downright dangerous > The contamination of propolis and other bee products > is, in part, the fault of beekeepers which use also chemical > methods which you advocate with such a passion... I always belived that lead in propolis is caused because people in general are driving cars... > Most of the actual good companies have found ways to > take out the lead from propolis, Acording to your advocating for usage of 'natural producs' and because usage of 'chemistry' and ' chemical producs' acording to you is big nono I can't understand you way of thinking. When you are talking about companies able to take away the lead from propolis - what kind of artificial and industrially made product are you talking about? How is it possible that others should be banned because they use artificially made products and suddenly you self are argumenting for such thing? Your argumentation is not consistent and can't be taken seriously. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:52:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Risk involved with old combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Sr Catherine put questions on the above subject. I recently borrowed a copy of 'A Manual of Beekeeping' by E.B. Wedmore from my local library and I show below some extracts which I trust are appropriate and of assistance. I heartily recommend this book. It is very well laid out and cross referenced. I am working from the 1979 edition. The name and address of the supplier of the book as shown on the back of the book is: Bee Books New and Old Tapping Wall Farm Burrowbridge Nr Bridgewater Somerset TA7 ORY United Kingdom Use of Old Combs. 342. It is commonly taught that with the successive raising of bees in the same cell, the cell walls become thickened more and more by the deposit of larval skins and cocoons, gradually reducing the diameter of the cell. On the supposition that the cells must soon become too small, many good tough combs are destroyed unnecessarily each year. The fact is, the bees limit the reduction of diameter by stripping the walls, letting the deposit accumulate, however, at the bottom of the cell as this is readily compensated for by extending the cell mouth. In time, the mid-rib may thus be thickened to 1/4" (6.25mm) or more and such combs are most excellent for the winter cluster. 343. The author has examined and measured worker and drone combs in frames which have been in use for 7 to 18 years without having received attention other than that given by the bees, and has failed to find side walls thickened by more than three thousandths of an inch, a negligible increase. He has particulars of an apiary where no frames have been touched for 21 years and the bees produced are still of normal size. Drone cells have somewhat thicker walls, but they also are not allowed to become too thick. It is a great mistake to discard old combs on account of age. nevertheless, old combs of doubtful origin should be replaced at convenience as they may carry spores of foul brood disease. It is much harder to work over an old comb than a recent one, hence, although old combs are preferred for wintering, new comb is preferred for rapid expansion of the brood nest. 344. Stored combs of dull appearance may be freshened by exposing them to strong sunshine, or by passing the flame of an alcohol lamp over them for a few moments in a warm oven. If mildewed they may be brushed with methylated spirit. A strong colony will restore such combs without help, but at some small cost. Attention to Stock of Combs. 930. All spare brood and all super combs should be examined and graded before they will be required, the worst being set aside for melting down, others for repair and the rest for use, new ones being separated from old ones. Old brood combs are quite suitable, however, for use in supers even for pale honey. The bees have no liking for fouled honey and see to it that the combs are suitably cleaned and conditioned. The bee-keeper, however, will find a difficulty in judging the colour of honey stored in old combs. He will have to sample it. It is also easier to ascertain the presence of pollen in combs that have not been rendered opaque. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:00:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: Re: Alternative remedies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris, My son was prescribed Apis by a homeopath for bee stings but as he never got another sting he never got to try it out. It was supposedly to help immunise him against the stings (he'd had an anaphylactic shock at age 17 and gave up on the bees). He did have adrenaline, etc. as well just in case, but it seemed worth the two or three quid for the remedies to give it a try. He took a course of them and then we were advised to keep them to hand in case of a sting. Which reminds me I should dig them out and try them this year. As I say he has never been stung since so we still don't know whether he is as sensitive now as he was at that time. As an aside, when I asked what they use if for apart from stings I was told it was given as a remedy for jealousy. The particularly venomous sort that makes you want to give someone a good sting I guess. Have you been feeling particularly relaxed and laid back since your course of treatment one wonders? Madeleine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:40:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Essential oils for varroa, OTHER bee diseases control and human beings. In-Reply-To: <199901291429.JAA31446@mail.keswick-k12.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > If you want to find these bases and take advantage of them, >you need to work (study) a bit more, and open first your mind and >soul... > My mind is very open, that is why many of us are on this list. We wish to have good data to help us raise bees. What we ask is that you give us this data, what are these oils doing to the bees, the mites and the hive. If you cannot tell me the "what and the why" of a process then the only thing I can judge a method on is results. Data on these "oils" seems to show that colony survival does not rise far enough above random chance to make me want to risk the damage I could do to my bees with them. The problem here is that the "natural" thing is for the varroa to attack bees, reproduce and attack more bees. Nature knows and feels nothing, evolution deals with changes and survival. The process of evolution will work to select the best of the mite and the best of the bee with equal chances to both. The rules of "nature" will allow the extinction of every honey bee on this planet with no bias at all due to the plants that depend on the bee for reproduction, they will fall with not a thought from nature. Is man part of nature? If yes then anything he does is natural. If no, then man is a specail case and his methods could be superior to nature and should be considered above natures. As for my soul, well that will have to stay closed. Al Lipscomb arl@suncoast.org 1275 4932 DFA1 97EB D3A1 903D 7563 2936 A66B 86B3 MCSE AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:26:40 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Risk involved with old combs In-Reply-To: <23154430211979@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I recently borrowed a copy of 'A Manual of Beekeeping' by E.B. Wedmore > from my local library and I show below some extracts which I trust are > appropriate and of assistance...." On the supposition that the cells > must soon become too small, many good tough combs are destroyed > unnecessarily each year...." I LOVE this book already, and I've never read it. Thank you thank you thank you for posting this. I have typed until I was blue in the face on this list trying to expose the folly of such practices and found that I was merely overwhelmed by those who would like to do things the hardest way possible. Destroying older combs that are still in good shape is another of those things small-time beekeepers do to make sure that they stay small-time. I could make a list of all the unecessary and costly work that people do due to simple ignorance and this would be near the top. Sure, I know that some extension people recommend it and justify it, but when have you ever seen an extension guy run thousands of hives? Large successful beekeepers just simply do not do it. Established combs are a treasure not to waste. I have never melted a comb in twenty-five years that was not broken or warped beyond chance of rehabilitation, and last spring when Eric and I were looking for nosema, I couldn't even find enough to prove to myself that I knew how to find it until I borrowed an infected sample to prove I could see the spores. AFB? Well, we have 3,000 hives, and I think we found one stinker last year. Otherwise nada. The proof is in the pudding. Anyone else care to name other futile, wasteful practices that are recommended to us? Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:29:39 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Observation Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Who has a good picture of an Observation Hive or a URL to a picture? I think I will start a page dedicated to such hives. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:21:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Risk involved with old combs In-Reply-To: <917660609.113284.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 In article <917660609.113284.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Allen Dick writes >> I recently borrowed a copy of 'A Manual of Beekeeping' by E.B. Wedmore >> from my local library and I show below some extracts which I trust are >> appropriate and of assistance...." On the supposition that the cells >> must soon become too small, many good tough combs are destroyed >> unnecessarily each year...." >Destroying older combs that are still in good shape is another of those >things small-time beekeepers do to make sure that they stay small-time. I >could make a list of all the unecessary and costly work that people do due >to simple ignorance and this would be near the top. I am absolutely 100% in agreement with this. We have some brood combs still in service which are 50 years old, tough as old boots, and could go on for as long again all else being in their favour. I have had a lot of flack when telling people this, but nonetheless it is so. There is NO discernable reduction in bee size, NO apparent increase in diseases, and if you think bees don't like them dump a fresh swarm in a box with 5 old combs on one side and 5 nice white ones on the other and after a few days see where they lay first. If we have no discernable cell size reduction after 50 years, and a conservative estimate of say 200 brood cycles, why on earth should we destroy excellent combs after only 3 or 4 years. We do cull combs, for such reasons as Allen states, plus attempting to reduce the amount of casual drone comb to help cope with varroa (a minor part of our strategy). We find little practical difference in disease levels between old and new combs and in the case of chalk brood often find that the first brood cycle on a new comb is the worst for this problem. I have seen systems where no comb is permitted to run for two full years, which does give an incredible amount of work and, because of all the drawing needing to be done, no crop in a poor year. If you are happy chopping out all these nice combs every year then go ahead. Especially at the hobbiest level it is what you feel you should be doing that matters a lot more than bottom line. At Allen and I's (although we are a lot smaller than him) level however, it is feeding the kids and paying the bills that counts first. The fact we both derive great pleasure from what we do for a living must of necessity be secondary. If we chopped every 4 year old brood comb the bill, including labour which is generally not a consideration to small operators, would exceed the value (if any) of doing the job. 900+ boxes of combs to chop, clean, and rewax (and often rewire) EVERY winter. I reckon we are looking at a bill of around UK#10,000 annually, or about US$17,000. If it is of doubtful, or even no, benefit, then that is right off your bottom line and right out of your pocket. For those who do not believe that bees clean out the cells and that all the cocoons ever placed in the cells remain there in perpetuity I have two questions. 1. Just what is that very fine fibrous brown dust many of my colonies deposit outside every spring during their first cycle of expansion? 2. I have some white Pierco combs. At the end of each summer they are pretty black, yet at first laying each spring they are white again in the bottom of the cells (the side walls stay black). Why? My answer (thoughts rather than anything I can prove) to the above is that bees do not clean out ALL cocoons, but they do like to return cell size to within certain parameters, at least at the start of the season, so they do remove some of this stuff. Murray -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:13:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. In-Reply-To: <917615313.107296.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <917615313.107296.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Stefan Stangaciu writes > I agree that everything depends on the dose. But you >will never convince me, nor any other MD or ND that the >toxicity of the above substances are less or equal with that >of the essential oils. I did not say that they were less toxic than essential oils. That would be plainly untrue. I said that they are amonst the most benign treatments available. I was, of course, comparing them with other chemical treatments. Coumaphos, Amitraz, and a host of others, including Formic Acid are the comparison treatments. It does as you say depend on the dosage, and in the correct controlled dosages it is administered in only sufficient measure to harm varroa mites, not bees. The amount of any essential oil used in treating varroa is vastly higher than the amount of fluvalinate or flumethrin. > Can you tell us what is the LD50 for the pyrethroids >mentioned above? > I'll try to get for you the same LD50 but for some >of the essential oils and we'll compare the results, OK? You find the figures. I'm a beekeeper, not a scientist so I'll take your word for what you find, but I cannot see why it is all that important given that accurate dosage, devised by scientists, has already been calculated and demonstrated effective for these substances. > >>> * NEVER, a MD, ND etc. will accept with open and light >"heart" the >>>presence of these poisons in a traditional "pure", >"natural" product; In other postings you have accused others of emotion in what they say. What kind of statement is the above if not emotional. Your use of words distorts the issues away from the strictly rational arguments. > > The contamination of propolis and other bee products >is, in part, the fault of beekeepers which use also chemical >methods which you advocate with such a passion... It may be of interest that I do NOT advocate anything, and certainly not with a passion. I have the very good fortune to still be in one of the few varroa free (apparently) areas and use nothing. This will not continue to be the case. Before long we will be infested. Then I WILL have a passion. Keeping my bees alive, which means that any of my neighbours using unproven, unreliable or even crank, remedies will certainly not be popular with any of the rest of us around here. > Most of the actual good companies have found ways to >take out the lead from propolis, but do you know any which >is able to get out of wax, honey etc. your pyrethroids? Eat propolis if you like. I wouldn't, although I know many who do. I've tried it and to me it is foul tasting muck which has never given me anything except diarrhoea. > Believe me my friend, varroa has better biochemical >resources to fight ANY chemical substance, if you will not >respect the severe administration methods with these "one >type" treatment. Synthetic (or natural) pyrethroids are always going to have a limited life. Their comparatively benign nature makes them relatively easy for 'natural' selection to get round. This is in common with all targets of these treatments. There is nothing especially tenacious about varroa which makes it a special case. Your remark about 'severe' administration methods is off beam. Hanging a couple of strips in a colony, which then barely notices their presence does not seem severe to me. There are right ways and wrong ways to use the treatments. Not severe. > To respect ENTIRELY the administration of chemical >treatments is IMPOSSIBLE! It will be always people, even >your beekeeper neighbor, which will NOT treat their hives >perfectly. It is not a perfect world. Nothing and no-one in life merits total respect. We have to make the best of what we have and not hanker after some romantic ideal which cannot exist in practical situations. > >>Three years ago we bought 200 hives from the widow of >someone who had >>been using Thymol. > > You probably do not know, but try to find out if was >natural thyme oil or just the artificial version? > Unfortunately he is dead. > I agree with you here that thyme do not smell so >nice, BUT: > > * do you know what was the dose used by that beekeeper? > > * do you know if he used it, as I mentioned above, AFTER >he has collected his products? I know he only used it in winter on little evaporator trays, probably for control of Acarapis woodii. > > I mentioned in a previous message to the list that there >are MANY essential oils which has been already used and >seems to be very effective, when applied correctly. > So, if you do not like the thyme smell, you can chose >other essential oils, like pine oil, rosemary, lavender >etc... Again, normally you will use them late in Fall and >combined with several other alternative methods. I cannot think that my clients are going to want to buy any honey that does not taste and smell just as it ought to, and I cannot risk the welfare of my staff by trusting that such a contaminant will be acceptable to consumers. All our honey is filtered properly, and such substances as fluvalinate will not be present in detectable amounts. > Who are these authorities? Practical people, researchers, academics, bee writers. A wide range of understandably cautious people, most of whom I trust the views of. > Are you sure that they are not receiving personal >advantages (financial, vanity etc.) by promoting the present >obsolete (in my opinion) chemical treatments? > Knowing some of my contacts quite well I'm sure you have a point about the vanity bit, but most of them would be highly insulted by this remark. They are just friends, relating knowledge as it comes to them, for NO gain. > In Bible it is written that you should first >look into your eyes, to see if they are clean enough, than >to look in the neighbor's ones... And then leap into the abyss of bankruptcy.... > > Again, there are many areas in this world >(Italy, Canada etc.), where the "Apistanotherapy" was used >by all beekeepers in a certain area. However, the varroa has >survived... > So, my friend, if you will continue with >perseverance to use ONLY Apistan & alike, you will endanger >your neighbors and will get probably in trouble for that... > And it will continue to survive into perpetuity. We will never be free of it again, no matter how eco-friendly we get. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:07:56 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Risk involved with old combs In-Reply-To: <917651672.2012313.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <917651672.2012313.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Computer Software Solutions Ltd writes >Use of Old Combs. > >342. It is commonly taught that with the successive raising of bees in the >same cell, the cell walls become thickened more and more by the deposit of >larval skins and cocoons, gradually reducing the diameter of the cell. On >the supposition that the cells must soon become too small, many good tough >combs are destroyed unnecessarily each year. The fact is, the bees limit the >reduction of diameter by stripping the walls, letting the deposit >accumulate, however, at the bottom of the cell as this is readily >compensated for by extending the cell mouth. In time, the mid-rib may thus >be thickened to 1/4" (6.25mm) or more and such combs are most excellent for >the winter cluster. > I recieved this, Tom Barretts original posting, after I had replied to Allen Dicks posting. I appear to have gone over old ground already covered by Tom because I did not have the original posting. Only problem I have with the contents of this are the thickness of the midrib. Yes it does get very thick and papery from the cocoon bases, but I think there is also some kind of self limiting factor at work here too reulting in the bees eventually working the thickness back to within their favoured parameters. Not even our oldest combs seem to have a midrib a quarter of an inch thick or any where near it. Everything else mirrors our experience fairly well. The example I quoted of the Piercos could illustrate this. The midrib in the case of these frames is already pretty thick, and the clean cell bases in spring could mean that the thickness is already near the bees upper parameter. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 07:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: drying of nectar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All: I just finished reading a beekeeping script from the "Developing Countries Farm Radio Network" (a most commendable organization). In the script is a paragraph on how bees make honey. It says: "Bees collect a thick liquid called nectar from the flowers of many plants. They take the nectar back to the hive and pass it on to the bees that are living in the hive. As the nectar is passed from bee to bee, it loses a lot of water and the concentration of sugar in the nectar increases greatly. The final product is honey. The bees store the honey in the cells of combs that they build in their hive." Now, I have always thought that it is the depositting of nectar in small droplets in the cell and the fanning of the bees that is the main method of drying. I know that many others on this list must think the same, for their has been much discussion in the past about the amount of space needed for nectar drying, and also concerning the importance of ventilation. However, it is true that a lot of "nectar sharing" goes on in the hive, and I know that it is not long before traces of a radioactively marked sample of nectar given to one forager will show up in many or most of the bees in the hive. Is there a contribution to the drying process in nectar sharing? And if so, of how much importance is it? The script seems to have good information sources, and was reviewed by an apiculturist who was (and may still be) on this list. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:37:57 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Top Ten Beekeeping Websites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I asked for a good picture of observation to start with to make an observation hive web page and WOW! I got more than that. John Caldera sent me the URL for his site, and Barry's, I can see it has aready been done. And done well. There is a lot of talent out there and I can see that people have been beavering away building a tremendous resource. Every so often I visit one of the sites that tries to maintain a list of bee sites and see the list has grown explosively since I was last there. Grown so much that I haven't the patience to go to them all. Granted, some of the sites are dull and hard to navigate, but many are pretty interesting, and most show amazing ingenuity and lots of hard work. I'd like to see list members nominate sites for the 'Top Beekeeping Site List' and include a description of why they like the particular site. Why, you ask? well, because I personally like to have a recomendation on anything new I try. If I have one, it saves wasting time with anything less than the best. And, if you include the link, I can just click on the hperlink in my mail software and be transported there (Assuming you get it right. Please double check your links before hitting 'send'). This is a chance for those who never post to BEE-L to pitch in and get involved. Please check before you post to make sure that someone else hasn't proposed the site you have in mind. Even if the site has been described before, go ahead if you think you can do it better. If there is too much duplication, the moderators may, in this unique case, select the most germane and hold back redundant posts. More on moderation in another post. Allen -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ often. These ads work fast! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Top Ten Beekeeping Websites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit easy http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/ I use it as the main site when I hold our Chapters Internet meeting, which is now yearly. It has all the sites you might ever want to visit as links. It is easy to navigate. It is the site that brought me to the Bee List. In all, the best bee site there is. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:34:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Honey for Athletes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dorchester & Weymouth BKA members have agreed to donate honey to help British Olympic athletes. Tom Clemens, a serving soldier stationed in Germany is a member of the Biathlon team due to compete in the next winter Olympics. His father, Dennis is a dedicated beekeeper and former Secretary to the BKA. He says "Apparently the men consume vast quantities of honey to give them instant energy when training so I offered to supply some to Tom and the other lads. Now other Dorset beekeepers have also agreed to donate honey to the young men during their training programme which will take place in CANADA, Greenland, ARGENTINA, and Scandinavia" How's that for a publicity boost for local beekeepers and their honey sales? We will milk it for all its worth. It may also help our export drive to the countries named! Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:29:07 -0400 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jan tempelman Organization: home Subject: Re: Observation Hives Comments: To: allend@internode.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what about http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/ob_kast2bk.html it's for Dutch frames so in Dutch language, with Dutch dementions but the pictures is clear [hope so...;-)] greeting, jant. Allen Dick wrote: > > Who has a good picture of an Observation Hive or a URL to a picture? -- Rotterdam------ 51.55 N, 4.29 E-------------- San Javier------ 35.36 S, 71.44 W-------Chile- -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:20:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: BEES, BUTTERFLIES AND CONSERVATION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A seminar will be held on Saturday 13th February starting at 2 pm at Puddletown Village Hall, Dorset, UK. Speakers: Biodiversity Projects on Butterflies - Mr Brian Dicker - Butterfly Conservation (Dorset) Management of Nature Reserves for Butterflies - Mr Dave Shepherd - Dorset Wildlife Trust Conservation of Hymenoptera (Wasps, solitary and social bees) Mr Stuart Roberts The Needs and Benefits of Bees- Dr Beulah Cullen- Regional Bee Inspector The Needs and Benefits of Beekeepers - Mr Dennis Clemens Biodiversity and Beekeeping - Coincidence of Aims?- Dr Phil Sterling, County Ecologist Brains Trust - Question and answer session. Refreshments, displays, Mead and Honey tasting Organised by Dorchester & Weymouth BKA in association with Dorset County Council If you are interested, please come - there is a vital ingredient guaranteed to entice all beekeepers - ITS FREE! Ask me for any further information Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:20:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: WEDMORE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm glad somebody else is reading Wedmore. It is the only one of my bee books that I keep within arm's length of this machine. Ken Hoare ribs me for my reliance on it but he hasn't told me I am wrong. I am glad Tom got his from his library. My practice when a new book is out is to request it from the local library. If I think the cost/ benefit makes it worthy to grace my shelves I will buy my own. If a book is worth reading, it is worth reading twice. One book I requested was Queen Breeding for Amateurs by Abbott. The local library didn't have it in stock so they asked around and got one from Devonshire. According to the date stamps I was the first person to have borrowed it since 1948. I liked it so bought my own copy for one pound sterling. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:08:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: I have a bumble bee nest in my roof MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Green To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:55 AM Subject: Re: I have a bumble bee nest in my roof >...... Honeybee keepers would not be interested in either >carpenter bees or bumblebees. Not entirely true Dave. A member of our bee club up here in Massachusetts, now deceased, did make some serious attempts to hive bumbles with the intent of seeing if he could migrate them around to local cranberry bogs. I understand that bumbles are superior pollinators vis-a-vis honey bees. At any rate, his experiment did not work because his bumbles didn't like being moved about and would abandon his bumble hive. I "think" that there has been some serious attempts along the same lines elsewhere in the past. Anyone know any more about this ? FWIW.............. Al Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:36:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Ben M. Poehlman" Subject: ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit How many people have been killed by africanized ("killer") bees? -Ben P.S. - I own a free mailing list, Daily-Fact, which sends out one fact per day. E-mail DAILY-FACT-INFO@JUNO.COM for an interesting auto-response with more information, or e-mail MAILME5555@aol.com to join. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Top Beekeeping Websites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Top Ten Beekeeping Websites >easy > >http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/ I'd second that ! New thought on the subject. If this idea really got going perhaps there could be some secondary categories. For instance, I can think of one site that I consider the tops when it comes to photographs on bees and beekeeping. There are one or two other sites out there that some could consider as good as Nick's or even prefer to Nick's due to their own personal criteria in what they look for. Or, one could nominate for the "Site Of The Month". ........some ideas Al ( Needham ) Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:51:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Propolis effects. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, There are over 70 proven pharmacological effects given by propolis, as a raw product and/or as an (alcohol) extract (tincture) or butter extract. The taste is not exceptional (it can be "corrected" with honey), sometimes it may give adverse reactions (like diarrhea...), but thanks to its large spectrum properties, propolis is really the hive's "green-brown" gold. If you need more medical references on the "properties" or on how to make "home preparations" for your own family health, please let me know. Best wishes, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro www.sci.fi/~apither www.beesting.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:26:31 -0800 Reply-To: gclewis@REMOVEpenn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gary C. Lewis" Subject: Bee Kills MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ben, I was watching a program last night (Friday) on the (Discovery Channel)about the AHB They said that in South America about 40 people a year are killed by the AHB. The same number of people that die each year in the United States due to stings from our honey bees. The difference being that the AHB does not give up when it attacks. Where you may get 8 or 10 stings from the bees we work. The AHB will stay "mad" for hours if not days, and once one bee stings it could bring on as many as 1000 or more stinging bees. The program also said that when an AHB hive is bothered almost 60% of the bees will leave the hive to defend it, many thousands. Normally our bees will send out a few hundred maximum usually less. This is the second time I have seen this program very interesting. If I see that it is going to be re-broadcast I will post the info to this list. It is well worth watching. I however ind a problem with the number of stings they say we get from our bees. My wife was stung over 30 times while working a very nasty hive we had a number of years ago. She was in a full suit by the way. I was stung 15 times on one occasion and 12 on another. Not a nice hive at all. Gary C. Lewis Duke Center, Pa. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:17:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Valentine Subject: Re: Bee Kills in USA Comments: To: gclewis@REMOVEpenn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Bee Friends & Gary, In a message dated 01/31/99 5:47:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, gclewis@PENN.COM (Gary C. Lewis) writes: << Hello Ben, I was watching a program last night (Friday) on the (Discovery Channel) about the AHB They said that in South America about 40 people a year are killed by the AHB. The same number of people that die each year in the United States due to stings from our honey bees. >> Gary I can't imagine Forty (40) people "a year," dying from "OUR HONEYBEES" in the USA. Where do these stat's come from?? I might believe one or two deaths from honeybees. Could the rest be wasp stings and/or spider bites? I could add in 1995 there was a hive that stung me over a hundred times on the back of my neck. I was in full bee suit w/zipper vale & elastic cuffs. The bees pulled themselves through the venting on the helmet. I could not retreat to the house because I was covered with hundreds of bees. I had to ask my wife to put on the spare bee suit, taping up the vents on her helmet before she came outside and taped my helmet. All this just to close-up the hive. The bees from that hive attacked the neighbors several hundred feet away the next day. And for two days whenever we left the house, we and the dogs were under attack. I moved the hive out into the woods "at night" and while wearing two bee suits I requeened it a week later. I usually don't wear protective clothing, just shorts and tee-shirt; tee-shirt optional. These mean/nasty Bees also had three times the honey stores as the rest of my hives. John CT ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:33:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. In-Reply-To: <14042223405328@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Stefan >> Can you please give me an account of 12 alternative and effective >> methods how to keep varroa under control? Can you for each method >> describe: a- method; b - efficiency in %; c - time consumed for >> total treatment? > I) Use of ORGANIC ACIDS: > II) Use of MEDICINAL PLANTS (Phytotherapy): > III) Use of ESSENTIAL OILS (Aromatherapy): > IV) Use of ...bee products (apitherapy): > V) Use of drone brood removal > VI) Use of bottom sticky floors > VII) Use of wired, mesh, open bottom floors > VIII) Artificial swarming + organic acids/aromatherapy treatment > IX) Use of physical methods like: . > X) Use of paraffin oil, in external treatment. > XI) Genetical breeding > XII) Combination of all above methods... You are covering a wide field of areas. From fairy tails (organic acids) over wishfull thinking (phytotherapy, aromatherapy) to corporate bull (genetical breeding ). None of these methods you recommend fullfill (today) the most important criterion - efficiency OVER 93% and minimal time consumption. It's known that everyting below this 93% treshold is worthless. I explain bellow why. When fighting varroa, two thing are very important and you must be aware of. Number of varroa in the beehive (can be assumed from the rate they are falling down without treatment, or you can count varroa after the first treatment - with deference taken to the efficiency of the 'formula' you are using) AND the efficiency of the 'formula'/method you use. Both values determine number of treatments you have to carry out. The 'killing rate' (efficiency) of the method must be bigger than varroa population growth (remember: each varroa female can produce upp to 7 progeny ). As lesser efficiency of the method you use the often you have to treat. Already at 90% efficiency you have to treat at least 3 times. You can estimate yourself how many treatments you need when using methods you are recommending (some none, some 4%, some 15%, some 40% etc). If you use a method with 90% efficiency and treat 3 times, you have around 1 promille of varroa left in the beehive. If you start with 100 varroa so in that case you probably have none varroa left, BUT!!! - if you start with 30000 you have 30 varroa left (if you use Apistan you have the most resistant one left). It's too many and untill next autumn (if you treat only at that time) they will be so many so they kill the bees (besides breeding resistant varroa). Fighting varroa is not only about usage of most efficient methods. Fighting varroa is even to know how many they are and keeping the number down at very low level - WHOLE THE TIME! All beekeepers should aim at the near to zero level before wintering. Fighting varroa is not a single treatment (no matter what kind of method) and believing - I've done what I should. You must know how many creatures fell down and from the 'falling rate' estimate how many are they left. Are they before the wintering to many left (= any), you have to treat ones extra more. And next time to choose more efficient/different method. What kind of method the beekeeper have to use must be determined by the demands - near to zero level before wintering, low levels whole the time. Not by 'green khmeres' or preachers without basic knowledge what varroa fighting is about. Fighting varroa must not be simplified to some sort of green ideology/doctrine (back to the caves). Fighting varroa is not about promoting fluvalinate or acrinathrine on one side or promoting essential oils on the other. Fighting varroa is choosing approach we can rely on (93% treshold) and dumping science fiction. Each beekeeper have to check how the varroa is rensponsing on the treatment. No one knows if your own bees are becoming resistant for instance to Apistan. No one can or will do the homework for you. It's rather simple to do. Perhaps beekeepers should change the 'formula' each second year and try to push the resistance into the future. Conclusions: fightning varroa is a tricky busines with no time for playing 'russian rulett' with methods with too low efficiency. BTW - your recomendations can be completed with some other methods (of the same kind you proposed): XIII) Praying XIV) Prohibition of varroa existence XV) Scaring varroa to death. XVI) Calling for a schaman. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:50:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 28 Jan 1999 to 29 Jan 1999 In-Reply-To: <917672536.2029175.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <917672536.2029175.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Automatic digest processor writes >YPERTHERMIA (HEAT); a short but high temperature >exposure (about 400C), applied several times will kill most >of the varroas, but also many viruses and bacteria + will >activate better the bee's immune system. I think that should read 40 C. -- Tom S ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:52:26 -0700 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Bee memory on angry bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John & all! Does anyone know how long bees can retain information? There was a feral hive I had the displeasure of moving after the wind knocked a 50' high cottonwood down to a 3" pile of ruble, devastating the hive it held. These bees weren't happy and were queen-less for a couple days. You can imagine how the next few days were for everyone - including the neighbors. The point I'm getting to, and which John brought up (bees violent for several days) is something which happened that night. Most of the bees stayed on the side of the house where the new hive was placed (some 50-70' from the front door & clearly out of eyesight). At night, after everything was finished, a lone bee chased me in through the front door as I was disrobing from my gear. The very next morning around 7am, I walked out the same door and began suiting up to check on the bees. Within 10 seconds, just as I sat down and not three feet out the door, a bee dropped onto me and stung right next to my eye (ended up closing the eye - so I remember it well). No other bees were in flight, right up to the hive (end of summer & a bit cool). IF that was the same bee whom chased me the night before, HOW did it remember that it was angry all night long? Did it sit waiting for my return or am I just imagining the causal events? Did John's bees remember they were angry for 2 days or did they stay that way by seeing them enter & exit the house? BTW - I've given up on using those so-called ventilating helmets. When bees are super-angry they'll find EVERY bee-space available to enter. This past summer I had an event I'll hope NEVER-NEVER-NEVER happens again (to anyone) when the whole hive unleashed unholy terror on me - and suffered stings to my face time & time again - until I finally figured out they were pulling themselves through my extra-special prize Dadant 'ventilated' helmet. Mesh is the only way to properly shield if you want a ventilated helmet. Those people living in AHB zones may want to re-think their equipment for this coming year. Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, CO John Valentine wrote: > she came outside and taped my helmet. All this just to close-up the > hive. > The bees from that hive attacked the neighbors several hundred feet > away the > next day. And for two days whenever we left the house, we and the > dogs were > under attack. I moved the hive out into the woods "at night" and > while ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:09:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andreas Schuck Scheidhauer Subject: Re: Top Beekeeping Websites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Did somebody surfed on the mine? http://www.colmenaressuizos.co.cl Andreas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:35:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Bonney Subject: Re: Propolis effects. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There are over 70 proven pharmacological effects given > by propolis, as a raw product and/or as an (alcohol) extract > (tincture) or butter extract. Could you tell us the nature of the proof of these pharmacological effects? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:19:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Each beekeeper have to check how the varroa is rensponsing on the >treatment. No one knows if your own bees are becoming resistant for >instance to Apistan. No one can or will do the homework for you. >It's rather simple to do. Perhaps beekeepers should change the >'formula' each second year and try to push the resistance into the >future. Hi there, Yes, here you are right my friend. Changing the treatment formula is the best method to choose, even several times a year and not every second year, as you suggest above. In human medicine, in the treatment of a bacterial or parasitic disease, it is made what is called an "antibiogram" or "antiparasitogram". These lab tests will tell doctors if a certain bug is or not resistant to a certain drug. Are beekeepers in your area doing this kind of test ALWAYS, BEFORE they do their chemical treatments? In human medicine, doing or not this tests may give the difference between life and death... In beekeeping is mostly the same as in human medicine. It is an already well established fact that there are increasingly MORE varroa and/or different bacteria resistant to the classical treatments. So, it is a MUST my friend to learn and apply alternative methods, even if at the beginning these alternatives will be also pure chemical ones. I agree that it is not wise to throw away Apistan, but just to be prepared to do that, in case this drug will work not anymore for you. Now, about that very good mathematical calculation you made... with 93% efficiency in the ONE-TWO times treatment a year. I agree with you that we need such a high effectiveness (over 93%), but the big DISADVANTAGE in the chemical treatments is that you can use them ONLY 1-2 times a year, otherwise (if you will make it more often) you will endanger the quality of your products + you will increase the risk to obtain resistant to your treatments varroa! The big ADVANTAGE of the alternative methods is that you can use them AS OFTEN AS IT'S NECESSARY without affecting the products quality, of course if you will use the proper methods and at proper times!!! More times 80-90% efficiency is better than one-two times 93%! Also, my friend, methods like phytotherapy, aromatherapy, dietotherapy may be new concepts for you, as applications in beekeeping, but when you treat a disease, you need to treat the WHOLE organism (in our case a colony). So, it is NOT enough to treat with chemicals the varroa and "bye-bye", be a happy man..., you need to treat the wounded (by varroa bites) bees which may get an infection with bacteria or viruses. These infection may spread in the colony and in the spring you will have no varroa but also no colonies... So, you need to treat ALWAYS the WHOLE colony, the healthy and the non-healthy bees, not only with a simple chemical treatment but with several other methods which will ensure for ALL bees and for ALL their bodily CELLS enough: a) nutrients, for a certain time of the year; b) vitamins and enzymes; c) trace elements; d) protection against dangerous bacteria and/or viruses; e) oxygen; f) warmness; g) immune system stimulation h) detoxification etc., etc. Unfortunately, Apistan, Bayvarol and alike will NEVER give the above very important factors. Again, I see that very clearly in the medical practice. There are millions of people (humans!) on Earth which are being superficially treated in classical "chemical" hospitals, against different parasites, bacteria, viruses or fungus. Some of them are healed of these "bugs", but unfortunately they die afterwards because they have not received enough from the above mentioned factors ("a" to "h")... Even if these "alternative" methods are now not so efficient (over 93%) THEY WILL BE in the future, when our best researchers will invest more time, energy and intelligence in theirs study, being forced or not by the lack of efficiency of the classical "one type" chemical treatments... I hope you will finally agree with that... >BTW - your recomendations can be completed with some other methods >(of the same kind you proposed): > >XIII) Praying >XIV) Prohibition of varroa existence >XV) Scaring varroa to death. >XVI) Calling for a schaman. > >\vov If you believe or not (it's your business...), praying and calling for a good schaman may be a GOOD idea. I know personally a professional beekeeper from United States which use such methods with 100% efficiency! In my humble opinion, like in human medicine, we can use ANY method, against ANY disease. The only important condition is to save, protect and prolong the LIFE, as much as possible. Kind regards to all of you and hope to hear more positive comments on the alternative methods against varroa! I'm sure that among over 800 members of our list, there are enough open minded (or, why not, ...deceived) people which tried or used regularly at least some of the above mentioned alternative methods. Your input in our list will be much appreciated and hopefully we will obtain soon a much desired harmony between the "old" and the "new", between chemistry and biochemistry... Stefan Stangaciu. Constanta, Romania. apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:06:39 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Re: Risk involved with old combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David Green wrote <> I can appreciate these combs as a renewable resource, but 30 to 40 year old combs have only had a few years of Apistan building up in them. What can we expect from older combs in the future? I am told the Apistan build up in wax is a problem. Could this build up be contributing to the resistance of mites to Apistan? And BTW, thanks to those who responded to the feral bee thread.Your insite is very much appreciated. de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 01/31/99 14:06:39 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:08:37 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Bee Kills in USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Valentine wrote: > Could the rest be wasp stings and/or spider bites? It is my understanding that the statistics are based on what the victim or relatives report. We are talking about deaths due to allergy, and it could well be any flying, stinging insect doing the stinging. One report I read years ago stated that 95% of all reported bee stings, upon investigation, turned out to be yellow jackets. The other 5% would include honeybees and other less common stinging aviators. No reference on this, it was far too long ago to recall. But, to the population at large, at least in the USA, all flying insects that stimulate fear of stinging are bees. That usually translates to honeybees. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:52:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Propolis effects. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Richard Bonney To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Sonntag, 31. Januar 1999 19:02 Subject: Re: Propolis effects. >> There are over 70 proven pharmacological effects given >> by propolis, as a raw product and/or as an (alcohol) extract >> (tincture) or butter extract. > > >Could you tell us the nature of the proof of these pharmacological >effects? Hello dear Richard, Scientifical proofs. Please have a look in our "Apitherapy Reference Data Base" (www.sci.fi/~apither), more exactly in the Bibliographic files, in the Page: "Propolis properties". If you need more details afterwards, please let me know. Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro www.sci.fi/~apither www.beesting.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:31:46 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Durk Ellison Subject: Re: Propolis effects. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Bonney To: Sent: 31 January 1999 18:35 Subject: Re: Propolis effects. >> There are over 70 proven pharmacological effects given >> by propolis, as a raw product and/or as an (alcohol) extract >> (tincture) or butter extract. > > >Could you tell us the nature of the proof of these pharmacological >effects? see http://www.sci.fi/~apither they are all referenced under propolis Kind regards, Durk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:36:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN PLUTA Subject: Re: Almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks-enjoyed your almonds piece on bee-l. -----Original Message----- From: Excerpts from BEE-L To: Bestofbee@systronix.net Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 9:25 PM Subject: Almonds From: Andy Nachbaur To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU This is a reworked post from the past, Jan 17, 1996 was the last time I posted it, its long as I did it. Many of the early posts to this list were long as we had yet to learn about writing in sound bytes so to speak. I am re posting it as its that time of year when a majority of the US commercial beekeeping industry is gathering their bees in California to pollinate the almond bloom and glean much needed operating cash for the coming season. It is hard to believe that over the years not much has changed to spite attacks by several flavors of mites, killer bees, and increased almond acreage, we still have a surplus of honeybees that are not rented. ALMONDS & BEEKEEPERS The highest price is paid for the smallest almonds, because they can be used in candy bars whole. Hershey Chocolate Company uses so many almonds in their candy that they actually built a factory in the heart of the almonds because the savings in freight alone would pay for the multi million dollar factory over the years. The heavier the bloom set the smaller the almonds. When this happens it takes several years for the trees to recover. In 1996 it is estimated that the beekeepers who supplied the bees for almond pollination received an average of $32.00 dollars for each hive provided for the almond bloom, that would add up to more then $25 million dollars cash flow to the beekeepers, which they spent for sugar, fuel, and in replacing bees for next years bloom. Only a few beekeepers if any at all could support themselves off the almond pollination rentals alone, and sadly most need the cash flow from the almonds to start the season in hopes of that big honey crop later on. About half the almonds produced are processed by one grower CO-OP called the Almond Growers Exchange. They at one time in the early days handled honey for beekeepers but failed in that effort and lost a lot of money for the beekeepers. A few years ago they also had to be stopped from selling one product they called "Almond Honnies" that listed artificial honey (sugar) in the ingredient statement, but contained NO (O%) honey. They do use a few drums of honey annually in a almond candy they manufacture for the Christmas trade and for their own retail stores. In total little honey is used in almond products in favor of cheep sugar and corn products. This is one area that the beekeepers could significantly increase the consumption of honey if the right pressure was applied like in the deal you can't turn down. "USE MY HONEY, or get NO BEES!" There is no doubts in my mind that this effort would made a new market for Chinese honey and have zero effect on beekeepers who pollinate almonds. The almonds are shook from the trees when dry and the hull or husk has split from the nut in the fall or late summer. They then are picked up and taken to a almond hulling plant that removes the dry outer hull (not shell). The hull is used for cattle feed if not too contaminated with farm chemicals. The nuts then can be dried if needed, and sent on for further processing which includes the removing of the wood shell. They shell is also used for fuel in products that are burned like BBQ briquets. The almonds are then graded and start the long manufacturing process which is mostly grading, sorting, and then slicing, dicing, blanching, grinding, packaging, and for a few hard shell almonds, bleaching the shells for those nice white shelled holiday almonds sold in the shell. The grower is paid for the weight of the meat of the nuts, size, quality, and how much damage has been done to the nut in handling to get it to the stage that it can be graded. Damage can include everything from the natural splitting of the nuts to insect damage. Nuts are also sold according to the varieties, the ones that produce the smaller nuts are worth more. In total it is a billion dollar industry with the potential to return a billion dollars to the growers which it has yet to do, but $800,000,000.00 (est.1998 farm crop 500 million pounds) is nothing to turn up one's noise at and will buy a lot of farm chemicals and fuel oil. As for the value of the almond bloom to the bees themselves. Because it is one of the early blooming plants in California, and for many beekeepers today the only early spring pasture they know, it is of course considered a good early spring build up food for bees. The truth is that until the almond growers started paying beekeepers to move into the almonds most beekeepers who lived adjacent to them would not go out of their way to place bees near any almond orchard. They had learned from experience that the almond bloom was pretty but not the ideal pasture for honeybees. Early day beekeepers who lived in the almond orchards would say its value was in the fact they could do their first bee inspection during the almond bloom and little else. Bees will find a better build up in California from boarder to boarder a month earlier or a month later from many different spring wild flowers and are not bound to the almond trees for spring build up. In fact in later years it was determined that almond pollen or nectar actually contains a natural sugar that will retard brood development because it is actually toxic to bees. This is the principal reason almond pollen piles up in the brood chamber during the almond bloom, (a sure sign to beekeepers it is a good pollen source, but actually it is not, and only because it is the only source is it considered good at all.) Queen breeders produce fewer cells during the almond bloom when almond pollen and nectar are their only sources. Almond pollen and or nectar does have a unknown attractor in the pollen/nectar that does attract the bees away for other flowers for a few hours each day, the short time it takes the bees to collect all the pollen and nectar from almond flowers only to return to other wild flowers if available. Sadly the farmers have taken to seeing bees on other flowers as a sign they are not working their almonds and for years have spent much time in preventing other flowers blooming during the almond bloom with chemicals and tractors. Much attention also has been paid to the dispersal of bees in the almonds, mostly because of grower concerns that they are providing bees for their neighbors. Several times research has been carried out to determine how the bees should be placed in the almonds. The placement in small groups as practiced today does not increase the almond yields at all and only makes more work for the beekeeper. Some beekeepers have found that to charge more for smaller groups of bees cures this problem but few growers allow truck loads in one spot which is all that is has been needed from day one as the bees disperse like water poured from a jug on a table top. The more water pored the farther the dispersal. No orchard has ever been found in California that bees could not be found during the bloom, yet many orchards do not have beehives in them. No factual information other then individual trees caged to keep bees out can be cited to show bees or bees in certain numbers are needed for almond pollination and this type of information has some real problems due to the influence of the cage on a tree that normally grows without that benefit. Almonds are cross pollinated between different parent trees grown in alternating rows. The bees must move the heavy pollen from the male parts of one verity to the female parts of another. Almond pollen is very heavy and is not dispersed by the wind. The flowers shed pollen in the late afternoon and are attractive to bees then and in the mornings. The bee collected almond pollen is very strange, and brakes down even when frozen. It will ferment very fast, and is bitter to the taste. The total amount that can be trapped from an acre of almonds is not that great even with the large numbers of blooms and trees per acre. They honey is also bitter and seldom gathered in surplus so as to be extracted by beekeepers. The best almond location are those that are adjacent to other flowers, other fruit crops, and along rivers lined with wild trees or in areas that have natural ground covers of mustard or other flowers. In good years the bees will swarm in the almonds without beekeeper care. NOT a problem the last few years in California. Almonds are a strange crop in that the market is dependent on world trade. Unlike honey the world price has always been high enough to support the industry in the US with the market off shore. The financial problems in Asia have had a detrimental effect and almond exports are down 23% and farm prices are down 15%.. All selling of almonds is regulated by law by a Almond Board that determines how much of the crop will be sold to whom for what uses and appears to be working to the growers advantage but not to the consumers as almonds are still a luxury food item for the average person in the US not unlike honey. Chow, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! --- Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search the BEE-L archives for any word: the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:18:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Apitherapy information. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, I presume that some of you will have in the future increased desire to learn more on the therapeutical properties of our bee products. The best advise for those of you interested on how can one heal or prevent a certain human disease using simple home-made preparations or directly commercial apitherapy products you can find in our active "Apither-List" owned by my friend Durk Ellison. So, if you want to join to the only existing apitherapy related list ("Apither-L") you must make the following very simple steps: 1) go to www.sci.fi/~apither 2) open the "Apitherapy related Links" Page 3) go to the bottom and open "Apither-L" 4) follow the simple instructions you will find there. As is the case with many other "Lists", you will be able to send and get messages in a very short time. Other very good sources of information and many good links you may find also in the American Apitherapy Society's Web Site: www.beesting.com Best wishes, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:39:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Hutton Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: drying of nectar CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 437 MSGID: 240:244/116 570ce1aa REPLY: 240:44/0 f4dd632b PID: FDAPX/w 1.12a UnReg(560) Hi Stan, Your information is in part right, there is perhaps some omission. Bees collect nectar nectar from flowers, sucrose and some other sugars, water content varies, some researchers report from 40%-80%. Foraging Bees add invertase to convert sucrose to fructose and glucose on return journey to hive. Regurgitates nectar to hive bees who ingest and regurgitate, hold droplets in proboscis and eventually paste onto cell walls. In each movement water is extracted or evaporated. I personally would not call nectar thick, it is very aqueous in my opinion, ripe honey is better described as thick. (dense, viscous) Regards from the Garden of England Peter Hutton --- * Origin: Kent Beekeeper Beenet Point (240:244/116) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:05:42 -0800 Reply-To: gclewis@REMOVEpenn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gary C. Lewis" Subject: CDC & Bee Sting Deaths. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee Folk, I have contacted the CDC to see what info they have on bee sting related deaths in this country. I also asked them if they could break it down for death from known bee stings and other biting, stinging insects. Once I get a reply I will post it to the group. I have no idea what the waiting period may be for this info. To answer a question to my original post about bee sting deaths. The number of 40 was given during the program I mentioned in the original post. These guys were working at Government bee research stations so I would guess the numbers they gave would be good. The numbers (40 a year) sound resonable to me. In a population of 260+ million there would be a very small segment of that/any population that would/could die from any number of "very rare" conditions or events. Bee sting deaths would fall into the very rare catagory. For those that think all stinging insects are honey bees there is nothing that we can do to change their thinking and to those that know the difference nothing need be said. Gary C. Lewis Duke Center, Pa. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:02:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Bee Kills in USA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/99 10:54:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, KingBeeJRV@AOL.COM writes: > And for two days whenever we left the house, we and the dogs were > under attack. I moved the hive out into the woods "at night" and while > wearing two bee suits I requeened it a week later. I usually don't wear > protective clothing, just shorts and tee-shirt; tee-shirt optional. These > mean/nasty Bees also had three times the honey stores as the rest of my > hives. Betcha they robbed a lot of it, rather than gathering it themselves! Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:34:42 -0800 Reply-To: gstyer@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Styer Subject: Re: Alternative methods against bee diseases. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > The big ADVANTAGE of the alternative methods is that you > can use them AS OFTEN AS IT'S NECESSARY without affecting > the products quality, of course if you will use the proper > methods and at proper times!!! > Take a look at the Swiss study chronicled in the Jan 99 issue of ABJ. Trained and untrained testers were used to test the taste threshold (the point at which the substance can be tasted) of different alternative treatment methods. The threshold for the essential oils tested was very low. So while you may be able to use them "AS OFTEN AS IT'S NECESSARY", you can't use them just any time you please without affecting the quality of honey. I don't think there are many commercial beekeepers out there that are willing to remove thousands of supers, treat with oils and then put the supers back on. Whatever treatment we speak of, all must be used with, as you say, "the proper methods and at proper times". BTW, I have thouroghly enjoyed this thread. ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:21:31 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Morris Subject: Re: how long bees can retain information? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew Westall asked how long bees can retain information? I don't know the answer to that, but I would like to pass on something a neighbour told me. Perhaps some scientist could explain it? My neighbour had asked me how long bees live and when I told him he seemed sceptical about their short life span. The reason was that he had bees gathering around a tap (faucet) in his yard, presumably looking for water. The bees always congregated there, although three months earlier he had repaired the leak which had been there for a long time, before he moved into that house. After three months bees still congregated there looking for water. Curious, isn't it? Could/can/do they pass on location information between generations? Regards, Ken Morris Hillgrove Farm, Batavia Coast, Western Australia Phone: (08) 9926 1087 Fax: (08) 9926 1338 http://www.wn.com.au/hillgrove Bees & Honey, Beekeeping Software and Website Design.