From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:05 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27239 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11050 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11050@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:51:59 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9902B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 221242 Lines: 5042 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:37:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Advantages of sugar feeding versus honey feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, Can anybody please explain, in detail, what are the advantages of sugar feeding versus the normal natural diluted honey one. Isn't this "sugar feeding" a big mistake from the biological, genetical and immunological points of view? Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:53:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Waterproofing fabric Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have successfully reproofed a waxed cotton waterproof coat by using a lump of spoilt beeswax and a hair drier, rubbing it on and melting it in. That was about 5 years ago. Its about time I did it again. Thanks for the reminder. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:23:48 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: apiary size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christopher Slade wrote: "I generally aim for about 3 hives to an apiary, perhaps with a few additional nucs, particularly when queen rearing. " With such a number, one would have to have 33 sites for a relatively small operation of 100 hives! Now, does anyone really think this is realistic? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:41:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Advantages of sugar feeding versus honey feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/99 8:09:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, apither@GMB.RO writes: > Can anybody please explain, in detail, what are the advantages of sugar > feeding versus the normal natural diluted honey one. > > Isn't this "sugar feeding" a big mistake from the biological, genetical > and immunological points of view? Sorry I can't do it "in detail," because I have not studied the reasons, but from practical experience of the outcome I can make a generalisation. Bees do poorly, when fed dilute honey. Apparently reprocessing the honey is a strain for them. The best way to feed honey is to give them frames of uncapped honey. If the hive is near starvation, I rake the cappings a bit, and put the open honey next to the cluster. Within minutes you can see a hive revive. Of couse we don't want to ever get our bees down that far; it takes a lot for them to come back, but it does sometimes happen. I have never seen any adverse responses in bees fed sugar or corn syrup. If there are any, the positive reactions outweigh the negative. Bees that are fed corn syrup early in the spring are roaring strong by the time of the first flow, and often equivalent to two hives. Every now and then commercial beekeepers have gotten "deals" on some waste honey and tried to use it for feed. It just doesn't work, except perhaps to enable starving bees to survive. They won't thrive. Others have reported the same effect. I believe Andy Nachbaur has mentioned this a couple times, as well as some other friends. These thoughts are weighed without consideration of the possible spread of disease. If you purchase honey from an apparently "clean" operation, with no disease, remember that, once honey is mixed in the tank, any disease that was not noticed (in one hive) has been spread in the tank to contaminate all that batch with spores. So this is a good second reason, not to feed back liquid honey. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:03:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: apiary size Comments: To: tvf@umich.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/99 9:45:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, tvf@umich.edu (Ted Fischer) writes: > Christopher Slade wrote: > > "I generally aim for about 3 hives to an apiary, perhaps with a few > additional > nucs, particularly when queen rearing. " > > With such a number, one would have to have 33 sites for a relatively small > operation of 100 hives! Now, does anyone really think this is realistic? > Commercial beekeeping would not be possible with yards this size. It is too hard to find good sites (that you can drive to after three inches of rain, that are sufficiently isolated to not bother people, yet not be bothered by bears, and have good forage). We run 20-50 hives per yard, depending on the forage, and whether it is a honey production or breeding yard. There are some good locations where 100 hives is not too many during the spring flow, but you can't keep that many at other times of the year. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:24:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: apiary size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I run three hives per stand Three hives per apiary might be about right for an urban beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Advantages of sugar feeding versus honey feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There were studies done in England on different supplemental feeds for bees including corn syrup. Turned out that the best was plain sugar water, not boiled but dissolved and no cream of tartar- tartaric acid. It also was harmful. This was covered in many past posts. If fed in the spring, most anything will look fine because the bees can void the extras that come with honey or other supplemental feeds. Plain sugar has nothing to void. Plus, you do not see any kills because they are masked by the buildup. If fed in the fall, especially in cold climates, some honeys with high particulate content will weaken or kill off a hive because of dysentary. I have traveled that route and speak from experience. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > > Hi there, > > Can anybody please explain, in detail, what are the advantages of sugar > feeding versus the normal natural diluted honey one. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:23:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Pollinator List is Up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The list of those who are doing (or plan to do) pollination contracting this coming season is up now at http://www.pollinator.com. It is still small, but growing daily. We've started with the US eastern states, but would like now to fill in the gaps, both in the east, and in the rest of the country. We are also going to begin a worldwide list. I was afraid to jump into this on too grand a scale, but it seems manageable, so far. So, if you want to be on the list (wherever you are!), which will be made available to fruit growers, melon growers, and others who need to find YOU, please e-mail with the appropriate info. We'll take what we can, but it would be most valuable if you can list the number of hives available for pollination, the crops you are willing to do, the geographic range, and your phone #, address, and web page/e-mail address. You'll have to discuss prices with the customers; that's not for the list. STOP RIGHT NOW AND CHECK YOUR "SEND TO" BOX! If you are responding, be sure you are responding to Pollinator@aol.com, rather than to Bee List. We should have some sample contracts available soon, for those of you who want this. And there will soon be info and promotional resources for you to give your customers. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:00:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Need help with bee anatomy sizes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have looked thru my 10 references and have found nothing about the dimension of our beloved European honeybee. For a volume/weight analysis I am doing, I need to know their average length, height above ground, body size, etc. Does anyone have a reference or recommendation as to where to look? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:24:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Advantages of sugar feeding versus honey feeding In-Reply-To: <199902081401.JAA09271@mail.keswick-k12.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:37 PM 2/8/99 +0100, you wrote: > Hi there, > > Can anybody please explain, in detail, what are the advantages of sugar >feeding versus the normal natural diluted honey one. > > Isn't this "sugar feeding" a big mistake from the biological, genetical >and immunological points of view? > I think one of the keys to this question is that in nature, the honeybee will not find sources of honey cut with water laying around, so feeding bees diluted honey has nothing to do with nature. On the other hand bees are designed to take some forms of sugar and use them as food. While cane sugar may not be an exact match, it is close enough. So from a "biological" and "genetical" it makes more sense to feed this type of sugar. While not a pure "immunological" issue, the reduced chance of passing AFB spores to a colony makes sugar worth it. Al Lipscomb arl@suncoast.org 1275 4932 DFA1 97EB D3A1 903D 7563 2936 A66B 86B3 MCSE AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:37:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Sr. Monica Ryan" Subject: Oil Seed Rape Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to All! Oil Seed Rape Honey? I am wondering if any of you have experience with the harvesting of this type of honey? This is my experience.... There is quite a lot of Oil Seed Rape grown in this area - sometimes a blessing, but at other times it causes problems. Proficient Beekeepers tell us that extraction should be done as soon as the crop goes off flower. For two consecutive seasons (weather conditions not good), I have had problems with the supers. When I came to the job of removing the supers, I found patches of SEALED ans patches of UNSEALED honey on each of a number of frames. I then decided to postpone removal and extraction, only to find myself with combs of solidly crystalised honey ten days later. I'm wondering if any of you, who deal with Oil Seed Rape Honey, would please tell me of their experience of handling the crop. Is there any method of getting the honey from such combs without destroying the Foundation/Combs? I will be really grateful for any information or tips on this subject. Thank you - in advance Sr. Catherine (Sr. Monica is the typist) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:41:46 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: honey museum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in search of the name and address of the beekeeping museum in Ashippun, Wisconsin, USA (I think). Can any one help? Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:23:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Stefan again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT OK, so now he's pontificating that feeding bees cane sugar is an harmful attack on what Nature intends for bees. No approval here. Is this not editing for content? /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:22:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Oil Seed Rape Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/99 7:21:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, mr@DROGHEDA.EDUNET.IE (Sr. Catherine) writes: > I found patches of SEALED ans patches > of UNSEALED honey on each of a number of frames. I then decided to > postpone removal and extraction, only to find myself with combs of > solidly crystalised honey ten days later. > > I'm wondering if any of you, who deal with Oil Seed Rape Honey, would > please tell me of their experience of handling the crop. Is there any > method of getting the honey from such combs without destroying the > Foundation/Combs? I will be really grateful for any information or tips > on this subject. There is only one way I know, and that is to get it out of the comb very quickly. Patches of uncapped honey are okay, unless you can give the frames a sharp shake, and nectar shakes out on the ground. If it is already crystallized, you might rather give it back to the bees as feed. I've used frames of canola (that's what it's called in the US) honey to feed nucs and it works fine. If you insist on extracting it, keep the supers as warm as possible (many beekeepers have a "warm room" where they can keep stacks of supers at 95 or 100 degrees F). Then scratch the comb with a cappings scratcher, as deeply as possible. Follow this with the end of a hive tool scraped along the cells, to remove the comb right down to the midrib. I hold the hive tool perpendicular to the frame to avoid gouging and puncturing the midrib. It's a lot of work. Your hands will get sore, and you will take many more hours to extract, and you won't get all the honey. And the sucess is conditional on having the frames real warm to begin with. After a few times, you'll either go back to extracting immediately or giving in back to the bees. Personally I'm not fond of canola honey. It looks pretty, but it has an unpleasant, peppery taste. Canola here blooms in February and March. Unlike most other forage plants, it can take a hard frost in the morning, and be yielding nectar in the afternoon -- a great crop for raising early queens. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:07:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Spiekhout Subject: pollen? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For the past 3 or 4 warm days my bees have been coming in with there pollen sacks so full that they seem very heavy when they land. It is a dull gray colour. I no of nothing in Ky that is blooming. The hives are full of bees and have a medium super full of honey on top of 1 deep brood box. Do I need to feed them to stimulate laying and will this not encourage swarming? Thanks for any help. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:27:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Buck Rut Subject: Re: Pollen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I live near St. Louis, and I opened two hives to find the bees returning loaded with a pollen as well. I also found several cells containing a clear liquid I am assuming to be some kind of nectar. I contacted a couple other beekeepers who have been in the business much longer than me, and said it could be either, or both Maple pollen, or Eastern Red Cedar pollen. I know the Maples here are blooming now, so I am assuming it was Maple. Any ideas? Scott Moser I believe beekeeping mirrors life. You have to put up with many stings to get to the sweet rewards! S. Moser _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:34:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Warren Otto Organization: The University of Manitoba Subject: Re: Oil Seed Rape Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Much (most?) of the honey produced on the Canadian prairies (at least in Manitoba) comes from canola as other crops such as clover and buckwheat continue to decline. We are surrounded with canola (approximately 5000 hectares within 3 kilometers of our place in 1998) therefore our bees are proficient in the collection of nectar from canola. I have never had a problem with it crystallising in the comb, but have been told to watch out for this. As long as the honey is removed in a timely manner (last year I extracted around August 15) there should be no problem. The trick is to not wait until the frames are totally capped over. As long as 1/2 of the frame is capped we extract and have never had problems with moisture content. If it does crystallise I would save it to feed the bees in spring. Bees fed canola honey over the winter months here die of starvation. Warren Otto ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:41:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Apologies due and sincerely offered MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I must offer quick and sincere apologies to the list and specifically to Stefan Stangaciu for my last post to BEE-L. My post was intended for a different list and was not intended to be a public rebuke of Stefan's beliefs. Personally I am not a listening for holistic medicines. That is not to say I firmly believe holistic medicines are bunk, nor do I believe they are voodoo or juju and of no value to anyone anywhere on the face of the earth. My personal beliefs put holistic medicines in a similar catagory as religions. I am not a listening for all religions but I adamantly believe in everyones' right to follow, live any religion they chose. My beliefs do not invalidate those of others'. My misdirected post to BEE-L challanging Stefan's assertion that feeding cane sugar to bees is wrong is not a challange to Stefan's belief in Apitherapy. My objection is to advice coming from "... a humble amateur beekeeper (ergo) a MD and licensed acupuncturist and almost 100% natural medicine oriented doctor" when the beekeeping advice is based on expertise in Apitherapy, not expertise in beekeeping. Attempting to keep this short (hard for me), I misdirected a post and have unintentionally offended a member of this list. I offer my sincere apologies. I can say and do no more to correct my error. I hope the (potential) flames are directed to me personally and that the list is spared. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:43:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Davis Subject: Re: pollen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noticed this for the last few years here in West Virginia. I believe it's corn dust or pollen they find aroound as it's the same color as the pollen baskets on the bees I've noticed rolling around in the laying mash and corn I give the chickens. I live in an area where a lot of people keep beef cattle over the winter and feed corn. ->For the past 3 or 4 warm days my bees have been coming in with there pollen >sacks so full that they seem very heavy when they land. It is a dull gray >colour. I no of nothing in Ky that is blooming. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:57:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Early Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is a perennial topic on BEE-L - usually comes up every spring. Possible sources (earlier than soft maples) include pussy willows, and the earliest quoted source is skunk cabbage. Also included in the perennial discussions are objections from some members that the Latin names are missing. Sorry, I don't know the Latin names for skunk cabbage and pussy willows. /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:00:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Phillip Wood Subject: archive question Sorry to bother the list, but I was trying to locate the archives on the web. It seems that the web page at albany has stopped the archive a few years ago. (Specifically, I was looking for any information on property tax rebates at the US federal level for keeping bees- someone mentioned it to me, but I can't seem to locate anything on it). Thanks in advance to any assistance on finding web-based archives! Phil Wood wood@psysparc.psyc.missouri.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:48:29 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Massive Build Up...A Month Too Early MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This discussion was going on at sci.agriculture.beekeeping and I thought it might be of interest here too... BTW, sci.agriculture.beekeeping was set up for really basic discussions and is wide open to chatter, _uninformed_ discussion of beekeeping, irrelevance and all that stuff that might not belong here on 'INFORMED DISCUSSION OF BEEKEEPING'. If you are interested and have never been able to get there, try going to http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ Follow the "Bee Discussion Lists' link, and there you will find several ways to get to sci.agriculture.beekeeping including a web based one that I personally use in preference to a local newsreader. You can also try the links at the end of the message below... Here's the article... --- Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping > > > >then there go my splits and awesome queens. > > >Put on some supers.>> > > I hate to disagree with you, Allen, > way too early for supers Okay, sorry guys, I guess I should have been more explicit, so I'll expand (excuse me) a bit: * Put on supers BELOW the Brood chamber(Yes I know 'super' is the Latin word for 'above', but never mind). Bees naturally are found at the top of a cavity in spring and move down as they expand. * Make sure you have appropriate entrance reducers on and the hive is reasonably draught-proof. * Make sure there is plenty of feed. * Use a sheet of newspaper if you are concerned about whether the bees should go down and let them decide. (You don't need to invest in a quality paper: USA Today is okay, and so is the National Enquirer. In a pinch you can splurge and use the Wall Street Journal or Speedy Bee). * Make a few knife slits or holes in the paper -- if you use it (I don't) -- the size of a dime so they get the hint and don't mistake it for the bottom board (which is what they have become accustomed to finding in that position). * Put an excluder UNDER the brood chamber and over the super(s)if you want to keep the queen out. * Reverse when the weather gets better. Works for me up here in the icy north when the bees are huge and the weather is iffy. That's usually in April/May/. Allen -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: http://www.dejanews.com/=zzz_maf/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver &recnum=%3c79pdqe$437$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja News, the discussion network. http://www.dejanews.com/=zzz_maf/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:21:39 -0800 Reply-To: gclewis@penn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gary C. Lewis" Subject: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone out there. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leslie Sturges Subject: strange slightly off-topic request for help Comments: To: Pollinator@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ** High Priority ** Hello all--I've posted before asking for help with an educational program = based on pollinators and thank you for your indulgence. Now I'm trying to = find flower puppets that can be used with the numerous pollinator puppets = available at toy stores. I need scale models, preferable a composite type = flower, a snapdragon-type thing and perhaps a tubular flower like = foxglove. Any suggestions and iseas are greatly appreciated. Leslie Sturges Animal Keeper Team A, Invertebrates National Zoological Park Washington, DC = = = = = = = = = =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:11:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cesar Flores Subject: Residential areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any interesting experiences/stories about "neighbor relations" while keeping bees in urban areas? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Safe and appropriate age for children's involvment in bee keeping. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Last year culminated a 6 month discussion with my oldest son about why = he should not have a bee hive. We were unable to disuade him from his = desire to keep bees; therefore, we purchased bees/hive with gift monies = of his and commenced to spend our resources so that I could look after = them. He and his younger brother watch the bees from the other side of = the fence(about 15 feet from the hive) on most days to assure that the = bees are o.k. Now my oldest, Samuel, is spending time right next to the = hive watching the bees. I am concerned about his safety if he were to = be present when I open the hive. Of course, you don't see me wearing a = net and can't keep a smoker lit to save my life, but am working on it. = A child's safety is less sure, as he has never been stung by any = insects(I seemed to attract them when I was young) and I don't know how = he would react. Any thoughts? Tim Rich -=20 BTW - two years ago, I would have laughed at any who said that I would = be caring for bees. Especially since I have always been negatively = affected by bee stings(allergic?). The past year I received 4 stings, = with progressively diminished responses. In fact, the last sting left = only a welt! I don't know about science, etc - but it has worked for = me.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:31:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: Early Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron: Not to be smart or anything, but FYI, here are the Latin names, skunk cabbage, symplocarpus foetidus pussy willow, salix discolour Muhl >From the Peterson Field Guides. To date have not seen any of these in bloom in the Niagara Peninsula of S. Ontario, Canada. Keith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:27:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eric Bullard Subject: Re: Residential areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yes, our county commissioners just floated a trial balloon about an animal control law that would have made beekeepers responsible for "controlling the flight of bees". It would also have raised our current distance rule to 500 feet. Needless to say, our uproar squashed the law quickly. Currently there is a 150ft rule (no complaining neighbor's house within 150 feet of the hive). Also the new law would have forced you to provide a water source near the hive (not a bad idea anyway). This was to keep folks from having to constantly clean bees out of their pools and reduce possible stings. Our local association offers our leadership to logal governing bodies on any exploritory committees to help avoid silly regulation. Also, on a more personnal level, I make sure all my neaghbors get free honey bears on a regular basis. Happy neaghbors rarely complain. Cesar Flores 02/09/99 02:11 PM Please respond to Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU cc: (bcc: Eric Bullard/NC06528/NWAGENT) Subject: Residential areas Does anyone have any interesting experiences/stories about "neighbor relations" while keeping bees in urban areas? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:03:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dalby Subject: Re: pollen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the past 3 or 4 warm days my bees have been coming in with there pollen >sacks so full that they seem very heavy when they land. It is a dull gray >colour> Here in southern England the garden shrub Viburnam Tinus is in flower through the late winter and spring, on a warm day the flowers are very attractive to honeybees and the poleen is grey to grey/brown. As soon as spring flowers such as the crocus become abundant the bees seem to ignore the viburnum(personal observation) Do I need to feed them to stimulate laying and will this not >encourage swarming? Only feed if needed. I have fed syrup in spring and pollen patties as well to stimulate the colonies ready for pollination. This can give rise to big colonies early in the season and hence a greater tendancy to swarm. If you want this is an ideal oppotunity to make some early splits, which is what I do before the colonies go to the orchards. Peter Dalby >Peter and Barbara Dalby, England E-mail: peter.pebadale@virgin.net barbara.dalby@virgin.net Web Site: http://freespace.virgin.net/peter.pebadale ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Feeding new packages on a semi-commercial scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Since there are a bunch of commercial beekeepers out there I thought I'd ask them how you feed your package bees once they arrive? We'll be starting sixty 3# packages this coming end-of-April. Since I'm joining the ranks for the 'budget-minded' beekeepers I'd like to keep the cost appropriate (i.e. use corn syrup? bulk-sugar? Where do you buy 3000 lbs of sugar? How do you feed in mass?). Ordinarily I've used top feeders (found these extremely efficient) but I think I'll have trouble finding sixty 1-gallon glass containers or similar - so I'm guessing people will tell me to use the frame-type of feeders to get these bees started.??? Thanks for your advice, as always. Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, Co ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:17:03 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Re: Safe and appropriate age for children's involvment in bee keeping. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim: I've had very young children present when working with my bees. They are fascinated with the whole procedure. No problems. However, I do have several emergency anaphylactic shock kits handy. These kits are quick delivering injection method for getting epinephrine into the person having anaphylactic shock from bee stings. They can be prescribed by your doctor. Before administering to a child, check the recommended dosage as epinephrine is a strong stimulant! Finally I would suggest that you have a simple test done to check your child, and any friend that may be working or playing close to the bees. The test for bee venom tolerance can be done by most naturopaths, GPs, and especially by those who use injectable bee venom therapy on their patients. Generally, kids get comfortable, and are safe around the bees more quickly than I achieved as a big semi-grownup. Regards- Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:37:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Residential areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/99 2:43:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, bullare@NATIONWIDE.COM writes: > Also, on a more > personnal level, I make sure all my neaghbors get free honey bears on a > regular > basis. Happy neaghbors rarely complain. An amazing amount of fear and trouble can be solved with a jar of honey over the fence even if you must go out and purchase it from another beekeeper. Another tactic to allay fear is to bring a frame of bees with the queen on it to show a neighbor with the beekeeper in a t shirt - maybe not the method for a first year beekeeper but something that comes with experiance. Just don't show off to a neighbor unless they are allready aware of the bees. My bees ran the neigbors lawn service worker up their driveway and they just laughed but they are down to earth people. Watch out for yuppies- they just talk nature and they arn't much interested in experiancing it firsthand. In any case it doesn't matter whether you keep bees, rabbits or chickens if you keep them in a manner that is a nuisance you will invite trouble. I advise not painting hives white- earth tones are less visible. I keep 30 colonies in mostly urban settings at friends who garden or have a few fruit trees. And feel darn lucky 29 have survived winter thus far. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:08:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Advantages of sugar feeding versus honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am surprised that nobody has yet mentioned that you can sell a pound of honey and buy about 6 pounds of sugar with the proceeds. I wonder if people would be so keen on feeding sugar if this was not the case. I seem to be getting very cynical these days. One reason why sugar feeding might have become necessary is the practice of taking strains of bees that have evolved for a short winter like Italy and asking them to over winter in a place with a much longer and colder winter as found in much of the US and Canada. Such bees might do better without the gut filling solids found in honey. Does Stefan have any information on how the Apis mellifera mellifera bees of continental northern Europe are prepared for and survive long cold winters? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:29:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "John K. Warsaw" Subject: Re: Feeding new packages on a semi-commercial scale Comments: cc: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may not be a commercial beekeeper, but I do count myself as budget-minded! I use a device for feeding that I make from extra hive parts, scrap lumber, and plastic bins I bought at Lowes for $1.49 . I start by adding an empty brood chamber or honey super on top of the inner cover. The depth doesn't matter. I just use whatever I have lying about. I then set the plastic storage bin on top of the inner cover in a position that doesn't block the hole. I add scraps of lumber to act as floats for the bees, and pour in some sugar water. I then cap everything with the outer cover. The bees come up through the hole in the inner cover, which remains in its usual place, to get to the sugar syrup. The outer cover protects everything from the weather. The tub holds at least a gallon of liquid. I can check it or add liquid in any weather, or even in the dark, because I don't have to disturb the hive. If anyone wants to try my idea please follow the concept, rather than any particular dimensions. I've been using this method for a couple of years now, with good results. -----Original Message----- From: Matthew To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: February 09, 1999 4:57 PM Subject: Feeding new packages on a semi-commercial scale >Hi all, > >Since there are a bunch of commercial beekeepers out there I thought I'd >ask them how you feed your package bees once they arrive? > >We'll be starting sixty 3# packages this coming end-of-April. Since >I'm joining the ranks for the 'budget-minded' beekeepers I'd like to >keep the cost appropriate (i.e. use corn syrup? bulk-sugar? Where do >you buy 3000 lbs of sugar? How do you feed in mass?). > >Ordinarily I've used top feeders (found these extremely efficient) but I >think I'll have trouble finding sixty 1-gallon glass containers or >similar - so I'm guessing people will tell me to use the frame-type of >feeders to get these bees started.??? > >Thanks for your advice, as always. > >Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, Co ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:03:55 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Need Api-help getting started MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello BeeKeepers: A few days ago I administered 46 therapeutic bee stings. My wife received 44 of those, and I endured the balance. Another spring begins... but this is the first one I've started with a bunch of bees in my back yard. I believe that I'm going to emerge from the deep snow with a hive in pretty good shape, (Knock on super).I'm a novice and very new beekeeper with these goals and priorities in mind: 1) Apitherapy- Year round medicinal use of bees 2) A good, and hopefully stress relieving hobby 3) A study site for me to learn about beekeeping in northern climates I am going to need help from some of you seasnoned veterans. I can use any and all advice on starting up bee colonies. I live in Southeast Alaska (the section that borders Canada's west) and need to keep bees healthy year round. Bears have not been a problem this year, at least where I live. Questions: 1) Can you recommend some good entry level and intermediate beekeeping books? 2) Where would I find the closest supplier of beekeeping equipment? 3) I would like to identify a good source of bees; preferably a Canadian stock with some promise for being resistant to the normal pathogens that do them in in northern climates. But any healthy stock (that would not transport problems with them to my existing bees) will do. Can you connect me with the right people? 4) Would any of you "Yoda" types consider helping me construct a simple and semi significant confidence interval protocol to study three small colonies with varied amounts of environmental control? Much thanks and best regards Steve Steve Andison
Alaska Resource Economic Development (ARED)
(907) 790-2111
Fax: 907-790-1929 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:31:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Advantages of sugar feeding versus honey In-Reply-To: <199902100034.QAA20658@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:08 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >I am surprised that nobody has yet mentioned that you can sell a pound of >honey and buy about 6 pounds of sugar with the proceeds. I wonder if people >would be so keen on feeding sugar if this was not the case. Several years ago now the price of sugar exceeded the price of honey and I actually purchased two containers of honey from Australia to feed bees with. It was OK as we were set up to handle it with air to blow it out of the closed top drums and tanks to mix in added water and chemicals. As far as being better in any way to feeding HF or HFC it was NOT, but it was cheaper. It did nothing magic for the bees that I could observe as I hoped it would. >One reason why sugar feeding might have become necessary is the practice of >taking strains of bees that have evolved for a short winter like Italy and >asking them to over winter in a place with a much longer and colder winter as >found in much of the US and Canada. Such bees might do better without the gut >filling solids found in honey. Italian bees breed here in California for years have been selected for their honey production in the north and not wintering. They have been described as sugar bees because they do exceptionally well in the spring when fed and can develop from a 1- 1/2 pound package in the north early in the spring to hives that in the past have been the most predictive in the world. Today not many are shipped north as in the past but these hives of Italian bees still are productive here and used all over the US to replace loss and make increase. Chow, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:44:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Apologies due and sincerely offered Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-02-09 09:45:53 EST, you write: << I must offer quick and sincere apologies to the list and specifically to Stefan Stangaciu for my last post to BEE-L. My post was intended for a different list and was not intended to be a public rebuke of Stefan's beliefs. >> Awwww, c'mon Aaron...... Stefan was baiting us, and we knew it! I understand where he's coming from, just that my experience with the bees has actually been just the opposite. (Interesting how the bees'll suck the juice from the sugar cane stubs after harvest!) I have a friend who helped me some. Then he got a hive of his own. Suddenly, he knew everything to know about bees and beekeeping. He was telling me all the things I do wrong, and offering advice on better ways. Some of his advice was totally off-the-wall. I listened to it all, laughed at some, explained some, and hoped he might come up with a real good idea. After awhile he settled down and he doesn't tell me how backwards I am so much, anymore. Unless one is a creative genius, it'd be better to watch an experienced beekeeper carefully and copy their methods; they have been tried and true. Then after learning the traditional ways well, start to experiment. Well we are all learning. Sometimes it gets a little rowdy, but we still can learn. And once in a while the "experts" can learn from the novices. You can put away the hair shirt, Aaron. We won't expell you. Oh wait a minute...... Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Expert: An "ex" is a has-been; a "spurt" is a big drip under pressure. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:44:23 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Advantages of sugar feeding versus honey In-Reply-To: <00350289014337@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I am surprised that nobody has yet mentioned that you can sell a pound of > honey and buy about 6 pounds of sugar with the proceeds. I wonder if people > would be so keen on feeding sugar if this was not the case. I seem to be > getting very cynical these days. No Chris, you're not getting cynical. It's true. I confess. When the price of sugar and the price of honey got fairly close here in Canada a few years back, we got selfish and made the bees winter on honey. It hurt us to do it, but we just found that we could not get paid for all the work involved in taking that troublesome honey away and giving them that good refined sugar. Amazingly most of them survived. > One reason why sugar feeding might have become necessary is the > practice of taking strains of bees that have evolved for a short winter > like Italy and asking them to over winter in a place with a much longer > and colder winter as found in much of the US and Canada. Such bees > might do better without the gut filling solids found in honey. Well, I find that every year my bees are getting yellower and yellower. Sure you have to feed Italian bees, but in turn they will feed you. As for wintering, in my experience there are some bees that winter and some that don't. Race doesn't seem to be the deciding factor (sorry there, racists). There are some bees of any colour or any race that are just good. some bees make it thru by being long lived tough individuals, some by being short lived prolific social beings. > Does Stefan have any information on how the Apis mellifera mellifera > bees of continental northern Europe are prepared for and survive long > cold winters? By _natural_ methods, I trust? Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:10:03 -0500 Reply-To: dublgully@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave and Judy Subject: Re: pollen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard wrote: > For the past 3 or 4 warm days my bees have been coming in with there pollen > sacks so full that they seem very heavy when they land. It is a dull gray > colour. I no of nothing in Ky that is blooming. It appears that the bees are working the maple trees. No blooms yet, but some budding. There are also some dandelions and crocus in bloom. Our surviving hive, Buckfast, is full of brood, eggs, drone brood, etc. Lots of honey. Looks like we have to use pollen substitute, because they aren't getting much. Here's a question for the group. In the second box (top box) there is brood, eggs on the innermost 3 frames. On one of the frames there is a strange looking brood. It looks larger than a drone brood size. It is white. Raised like drone brood, but has a kinda little round thing on the end. Kinda like a ping pong ball stuck to it. There are other drone broods along the bottom. This one is right in the middle of regular worker brood. It does not have the look of a peanut like a queen cell either. Not as large as a queen cell either. Any ideas? Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:52:37 -0800 Reply-To: gclewis@penn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gary C. Lewis" Subject: Test replies/and bee stuff. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee Folk, I had a lot of replies to my "test message". I will not send another, but thank you to all of you from all over the world!!!!!!! The reason I sent that message was: Problems with my ISP. Nothing was coming in here so I had to re-subscribe to all my mailing lists including Bee-L. When there is a problem a message will normally be bounced back to me and I then re-subscribe or whatever needs doing. In this case two "test" messages to "Bee-L" were bounced back to me meaning something was wrong. The 3rd message didn't come back but the replies did. I knew whatever the problem was had been corrected, but like a bullet from a gun once a message hits the system you can't recall it. Again thank you for your simple and humorous replies and for the not so simple nor humorous... sorry I upset your apple carts. To keep with the topic of Bees. Some replied as Buckfasts on a gentle spring day. Then we had the "Africans". A few folks asked about my bees. We have had warm weather again today and it will be in the upper 50f's (12c - 16c) here again tomorrow. I checked my hives today. One attacked me as soon as I took the top off when I took off the inner cover I was glad a little voice told me to suit up before I went down to the hives. If I hadn't I have no idea how many stings I would have taken. They were not amused. I did not stay with that hive to long. Plenty of stores yet and a good population. Didn't check for brood. The second hive is a goner. Plenty of stores very small cluster perhaps only a few hundred bees. As warm as it was today I was able to open that hive up and pull some frames saw no brood or signs of a queen. She may have been there but I think she may have died early in the winter or late fall. I scrapped open some of the comb in this weaker hive just on the off chance that the queen is in there. If she is she had best get laying soon or else the remaning bees will be dead. It is a real drag to have a hive go down. I truely do hate it when something happens to my bees. I will do what I can to try and save this hive but I think it maybe way to late. I suppose I could buy a package or two and feed the honey that is left in that hive to the package bees. They would have plenty of drawn comb and a good supply of honey and pollen. Just a matter of getting the new queen up and running. I have been looking at prices for package bees from many suppliers. The prices range from $23.00 for 2#w/Q up to $43.00 for #2w/Q that is for 3 banded Italians. Any ideas as to the big price range? Thank You... Gary C. Lewis Duke Center, Pa. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:01:06 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Oil Seed Rape Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Oil Seed Rape Honey? I am wondering if any of you have experience with >the harvesting of this type of honey? We take 3 tonnes of Canola honey each year. We have had considerable problem when there is a cold snap during flowering and the honey crystallizes before the bees have even filled the cell. There are two varieties grown in South Australia - the early flowering is difficult to get honey from although the hives build up strength from the pollen. We think it is too cold or too moist for the bees to ripen the honey effectively. The later flowering crop produces honey for us in late September and all of October, provided there are spring rains. (Down Under this is the first and second months of spring.) We have developed this procedure for canola. Only one super above the brood box. Excluders so the super is brood free. Remove if the majority is capped. Extract the following day. If you let the frames stand they will all candy solid. I have seen canola honey drip from the frame and solidify in 30 minutes. We work 30 hives and extract that week whatever the harvest is. It takes us 4/5 weeks to work right round all the hives. When combs have candied (and it still happens) we feed them back to swarms or to weak hives later in the season. To ensure the bees clean them out and do not simply fill with the current nectar flow and recap, we dip the frames in a container of rainwater just before placing in the hives. Otherwise the candied honey keeps turning up extraction after extraction. I don't know if the canola honey we collect is purer than the honeys people complain about - we find it a very light mild flavour, popular with children. We have tasted some honeys claimed to be canola which were not pleasant. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Do you want to be a Beekeeper? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just happened to be going over my (huge, rambling) site (cleaning up) and...well... it's been a while since I took that big sheaf of photos from Denis and decided to do the Fairview College album... That was few years ago, and making a website then wasn't all that easy. In fact that particular project I never totally finished. I came close tho. In paging through it tonight, I was impressed by the excellent photographs from all over the world and the worldwide community of beekeepers. It's a small community, but pretty cohesive. And Fairview -- a tiny college way up in Northern Alberta -- is right in the centre of it. I was talking to Denis the other day, and if memory serves me right, he said they had only _9_ (nine) students. Visit the 'Fairview' link at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/ and see what it offers for yourself. Take a look and imagine you are one of these privileged people. It could be easier than you think. $1.00 Canadian = $0.66 US "If I make a living off it, that's great--but I come from a culture where you're valued not so much by what you acquire but by what you give away," -- Larry Wall (the inventor of Perl) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:45:28 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: feeding efficiently Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am looking at doing ALL feeding, winter *carry thru* & spring *build up*, with 50:50 sugar syrup in a top feeder. does anyone have any novel ideas of dispensing efficiently/effortlessly to 150 hives. i had an idea of (say) 200 litre drums full of syrup with some kind of bowser/pump attachment. any advances on that????? cheers, Mark Horsnell 150 hives buzzing around Auckland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oil Seed Rape Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Curiosity question- After you extract the canola homey, how do you keep it from crystalizing in the container? Heat it to...? And then does it still crystalize fairly early after heating or stay liquid for some time? Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:54:46 -0800 Reply-To: gstyer@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Styer Subject: Re: Residential areas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Until last year, I kept 1 hive on a small urban lot of about 30' x 40'. I now have 2 hives on this lot. This is how the 2nd came about. In January and February of '98, the central valley of California was experiencing the effects of El Nino. Temperatures were very warm that would have been normal for mid-spring. Pollen was coming in huge quantities. My Italian bees figured this was their queue and built up very rapidly. I had been traveling a lot and really was not around to notice what was happening. March 1 was to be the day that I began some swarm control measures. February 28th was the day the bees choose to express their instinct. The huge mass of bees settled about 10' away across the fence in the neighbors yard. As he patiently watched, I hived the swarm and apologized to him explaining that it was a bit early for the bees to be swarming. Like deja vu, over the next 15 days we would repeat this scenario 6 times. Each time at about the same time in the afternoon, a new swarm would issue from the original hive and settle in the same place. I combined all of these swarms into 1 hive. I am sure my neighbor thought I didn't know the first thing about beekeeping but enjoys the honey. I learned an important lesson last year. Bees are not driven by the Gregorian calendar and neither should the beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:37:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Test replies/and bee stuff. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have been looking at prices for package bees from many suppliers. >The prices range from $23.00 for 2#w/Q up to $43.00 for #2w/Q that is >for 3 banded Italians. Any ideas as to the big price range? Hi Gary: My guess is "Quality" - You get what you pay for generally speaking. Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:51:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: feeding efficiently MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am looking at doing ALL feeding, winter *carry thru* & spring *build up*, with > 50:50 sugar syrup in a top feeder. does anyone have any novel ideas of > dispensing > efficiently/effortlessly to 150 hives. i had an idea of (say) 200 litre > drums full of syrup > with some kind of bowser/pump attachment. any advances on that????? Yep, a petrol powered water pump will do the job. They are quite cheap, you should buy a one inch pump, and it will easily pump syrup through a 3/4 inch water hose. Don't buy the cheapest made from plastics, go for the aluminum one. I have used this system for a number of years now, and it works great. I can pump up to 65% solution if it's reasonable warm syrup (30 C) through a 10 meters long 3/4 inch (19 mm) ordinary garden hose. The centrifugal water pump doesn't build up a high pressure so the hose will not burst when I shut the valve between hives. I got a picture of it on: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/biodling/hive_8.jpg -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:13:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Victoria McDonough Subject: Re: Residential areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, I started two hives in my backyard two years ago. I have them at the back of a flower garden. This section of the yard boarders the "commercial" part of our yard. My husband is a lobsterman and he keeps his gear on the North side of our yard and I get the rest of the yard for the gardens, hives etc. We do have close neighbors but no one really noticed what I was doing for almost the entire first summer. Then a neighbor was so excited about my bees, he told everyone! I was able to honestly say to my other concerned neighbors that the hives had been there for months and months and had not caused any problems. I usually started off the conversation with "notice any improvement in your garden this year?" I also make sure everyone gets a nice jar of honey at Christmas along with a little friendly chat about gardens, the importance of pollinators and the problems with the use of pesticides. My biggest fear is a swarm. Haven't had one yet and if I do I hope it is during the day, during the week when few people are home! Good luck. Vickie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:07:40 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: (Fwd) Great News! I thought the following would be of interest to the scouting fraternity. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:44:54 -0600 From: Homer S Solis Send reply to: hssolis@stcc.cc.tx.us Organization: South Texas Community College To: info@beeworks.com Subject: Great News! Dear Mr. Eyre, I appreciate the information that you forwarded to me. My husband has also been in contact with the people at the national Boy Scout headquarters and Mr. Beluch gave us the name of John Dalrymple, Director of Advancement. Mr. Dalrymple was in meeting with the review committee yesterday all day and reported to my husband this morning (Wed 2/10) that they had decided to bring the badge back. I am not sure what your interest is, but as parents of a scout and as beekeepers especially - we are delighted. I plan to include the address for: John Dalrymple, Director of Advancement BSA, 1325 W. Walnut Hill Ln., PO Box 152079, Irving, TX 75015-2079 in my article which is being published both in our local beekeeping newsletter and in the Texas state journal and to request our members send letters of support and appreciation for this move. I have also provided this latest information to Mr. Beluch. Thank-you again. Sincerely, Nanci Solis ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Furniture Polish Kit **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:30:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Residential Areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Victoria McDonough wrote that she is worried about a swarm. > My biggest fear is a >swarm. Haven't had one yet and if I do I hope it is during the day, during >the week when few people are home! Someone wrote recently that the bees have little respect for the calendar. Neither do they wear watches!. Murphy's Law could well prevail here, the bees may swarm at the worst possible time. I have 2 hives in my back garden and am 2 years beekeeping. I intend to try as best I can to head off swarming by carrying out an artificial swarm. Whilst there is no guarantee ever with beekeeping, an artificial swarm or another method of swarm control, should improve the chances against swarming. However, if you have bees that turn out to be swarmers, it would pay you for peace of mind especially in view of their location, to replace the queen with one of lesser swarming inclination. I would recommend that you get a good beekeeping book and study this very important aspect of beekeeping, or get assistance from your local beekeeping association. If you do not do something about swarming, the bees could well get you into some difficulty with the neighbours, some of whom may be absolutely terrified of what to most of us is a glorious sight. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:50:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Howard Salliss Subject: Foundation equipment. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm new to this list and have been enjoying the discussions. I hope Stefan continues to contribute, I found his posts interesting. My question is: Does anyone know where I can buy new or used equipment for making beeswax foundation? I would like to produce small quantities for my own use. The foundation that I am interested in making , is for the Langstroth standard hive, medium brood, size, 8 1/2" x 16 3/4". Is there anyone on this list that makes their own foundation? Thank you, Howard. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Value/Price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I ride on the "honey has a high value and should bring a good price" bandwagon. Recently I was recuperating from surgery to my right hand. It kept me out of work for a week and a half. While I was home I pulled out some old copies of "Gleanings in Bee Culture" magazine from 1984. I read many articles including a good one by Dave Green. Imagine reading a whole issue without the word varroa being mentioned. What really caught my eye, however, were the ads. There were some for equipment that is no longer sold, candidates for the useless tool list. Then I looked at ads for queens and package bees. Back then the price range for queens was between $4.00 and $7.00 (US) with most around $5.00 and packages went for a little over $20.00. Today the price is over $ 10.00 from most queen breeders and packages are over $40.00. I did notice that most queen breeders who were in the lower price range back then are not in business now (value/price?). Part of me is glad to see queen prices are at least moving up, but my frugal side still wishes I could buy $6.00 queens. The most shocking price was wholesale honey. It averaged between $0.50 and $0.60. per pound. Unfortunately that is not much difference from today's prices. The prices of equipment also moved up in the past 15 years. Other than rubbing salt in some wounds I haven't said anything we don't already know. No one is going to get rich selling honey at these prices. Enter Dutch Gold Honey Company. Dutch Gold, located in Lancaster, PA, is the largest packer in the northeast U.S. They have been around for awhile and have pioneered some novel ways to market honey. Ralph Gamber, the founder, can be considered the "father of the honey bear". (I hope he is not offended by that.) A few years ago they came out with a new style honey jar, "The Classic", and began using a beautiful multi-colored label. There are pictures of wildflowers, clover, orange blossoms, etc. on the labels. Being such a large packer a fair amount of the honey is imported. This is also stated on the label. In fact I had one area gentleman tell me he only buys their honey because it is the best, with "sources from around the world". That sort of shoots the "local honey" idea in the foot. I do want to say one thing about Dutch Gold. They are a superior packer. Their plant is state of the art with excellent sanitary conditions. They put out a good product. I buy my jars from them and they are great people to deal with. They will also buy honey from local beekeepers. I was in the supermarket checking the honey section and noticed something new. There was the store brand (which is filled by Dutch Gold), a few jars of Suebee, and the Dutch Gold. They had clover, wildflower, buckwheat and one labeled Premium. It was lighter than their clover and looked like black locust honey that I usually produce. It didn't say why it was better or anything else. The retail price was $3.50 for a 1 lb. jar. There same size clover was selling for $2.35. The store brand was $1.99. That is a significant difference. Will it sell? Will the higher price be shared with the beekeeper/producer increasing the wholesale bulk price? Is this just a marketing ploy that won't sustain itself? Or, is this a turning point that will begin to demonstrate the true value of honey at the consumer level? I don't have the answer to any of these and I can only hope that this is the start of some good times for the industry. Time will tell. One final note. In comparing the issues of Bee Culture past and present I feel the magazine has improved and is continuing to get better. Kim and company are doing a great job. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA USA Hoping for a great '99 season! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:43:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Shilliff Subject: RE Test/bee stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been looking at prices for package bees from many suppliers. >The prices range from $23.00 for 2#w/Q up to $43.00 for #2w/Q that is >for 3 banded Italians. Any ideas as to the big price range? >My guess is "Quality" - You get what you pay for generally speaking. Al Needham Gary-Al is right.A few years ago I bought some $23 and some $50 3# packages.One of the $23 packges blew up inside the mail truck and filled up the Harrisburg PA post office with the bees.The beekeeper that rescued the bees and postoffice workers said the packages were not very well costructed.I have never had that happen with the $50 packages. Nick -Fingerlakes NY-bees are flying today! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:16:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick The Beeman Subject: Re: Safe and appropriate age for children's involvment in bee keeping. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tim: I myself am 15 years old and I am the one that got my family into beekeeping and I think that you should let your kids try it, it is very important to let kids try anything once. This will be the 4th year and I have enjyoed it sooo much! I have caught bees since I was about 5 and only got stung 2 times. Kids will learn to not do things if the right negative stimulat is gave ie the sting. I think that you should let them try on a suit and give it a whirl! Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Troy Fore Subject: Penncap-M Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Fellow BEE-L'ers: I have been neglecting the list lately -- too busy with the ABF convention and the aftermath to keep up with everything. Forgive me if this subject has been covered recently -- EPA is evaluating pesticides to make a new risk assessment determination, I think this ultimately could result in removal from the market. Methyl parathion -- the active ingredient in Penncap-M -- is currently being assessed. Comments on the preliminary risk assessment are due in Washington no later than next Tuesday, Feb. 16 (sorry, I just learned of this), but e-mail comments are accepted. Any beekeeper who has had bees killed by Penncap-M should take this opportunity to communicate with EPA and relate his/her experiences. The preliminary risk assessments may be reviewed at this website . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Troy Fore Executive Director American Beekeeping Federation P.O. Box 1038, Jesup, GA 31598-1038 Ph. 912-427-4233 Fax 912-427-8447 Email: troyfore@abfnet.org Home Page: http://www.abfnet.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:36:06 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Oil Seed Rape Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Truesdell wrote: >Curiosity question- After you extract the canola honey, how do >you keep it from crystalizing in the container? Heat it to...? >And then does it still crystalize fairly early after heating or >stay liquid for some time? Yes, this honey does cause some handling problems. We pack honey for sale in tourist outlets and grocery stores. Honey that candies on the shelf meets consumer resistance (yes, I know the arguments that say the only good honey is an unheated honey but there is also an argument that the customer is always right). We find that all the annual flowering plants that produce honey in spring are very fast candying honeys - this includes canola, cape weed, clovers. We do a creamed honey which gives a lovely soft texture, probably because we are using a starter which has been creamed continually for several years. I have read that creamed honey from canola is very hard, but this is not our experience. However we have a surplus of these honeys that are sold as liquid honeys and to pack them we raise the temperature of the honey in a water bath to 77 degrees C. and remove it immediately from the heat for filtering through a nylon cloth. The temperature of 77 degrees C. was suggested in the ABC and XYZ. Other honeys we do not heat to this temperature. Filtering does not remove the pollen which is skimmed from the top after 24 hours. This produces a lovely clear honey. However, if kept in an airconditioned store, candying will commence again sometimes within 4 weeks. I would appreciate any suggestions as to how we can extend the shelf life of canola honey, remembering we have no control over it once it has left our shed. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Changing Fundamentals of Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Maryann Frazier Below, please find the program for and information concerning a two-day beekeeping short course to be held at Penn State University in May. Please post this information to Bee-L. Changing Fundamentals of Beekeeping Enroll NOW! Preregistration Form Due by April 29 Friday, May 14 8:00 a.m. Registration- Lobby, ASI Building 8:30 Welcome & Course Instruction Maryann Frazier (Penn State) 8:45 Biology-Our Basis for Management Maryann Frazier 9:30 Seasonal Management Dr. Dewey Caron 10:15 Break 10:30 Honey Bee Behavior-How Do Bees Make Choices? Dr. Scott Camazine 11:15 Techniques of Queen Rearing Dr. Jeff Pettis 12:00 p.m. Lunch-Provided 1:00-4:00 Apiary/Lab Workshops (You may select 2 of the 3) Bees Inside and Outside-Honey Bee Dissection Dr. Diana Sammataro 108 Headhouse III Queen Rearing Techniques in the Field Dr. Jeff Pettis University Apiary Bee Aware, Making the World Wide Web Work for You, Record Keeping Computer Lab 5:00-6:30 Reception and Tour of Penn State Research Labs 504 ASI Building Featured Speakers: Nick Calderon-Honey bee research specialist at Cornell University. His research has focused on improving mite sampling techniques and novel mite control techniques. Scott Camazine-Honey bee research specialist at Penn State. His research focuses on the control of honey bee mites and diseases and on how social insects make decisions. Saturday, May 15 Room 101, ASI Building 8:00 a.m. Marketing Hive Products Dr. Dewey Caron 9:00 Brood Diseases Jim Steinhauer (Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture) 10:00 Break 10:15 Tracheal and Varroa Mites: Their Impact and Control Dr. Diana Sammataro and Jennifer Finley (Penn State) 11:00 Pollination and Pesticides Dr. Nick Calderone 12:00 Lunch -On your own 1:00-4:00 Apiary/Lab Workshops (You may select 2 of the 3) Mite and Disease Diagnosis in the Lab Dr. Diana Sammataro 108 Headhouse III Mite and Disease Diagnosis in the Field Jim Steinhauer and Grant Stiles (New Jersey Department of Agriculture) University Apiary Honey Bee Pollination and Pesticides in the Field Dr. Nick Calderone- University Apiary 4:30 p.m. Adjourn Dewey Caron-University of Delaware, Apiculturist, specializes on novel extension and teaching approaches, research on the marketing of hive products and varroa mite sampling. Jeff Pettis-Research specialist, USDA, Beltsville Bee Lab. His research focuses on chemical and biological approaches to the control of honey bee mites. Diana Sammataro-Honey bee research associate at Penn State. She leads the applied research program at Penn State and is the author of "The Beekeeper's Handbook". WHO SHOULD ATTEND Honey bee management is quickly changing. Not only must we manage our bees, we must also be able to effectively manage the newly introduced parasitic mites that attack them. This course is designed to cover the basics of keeping bees for the production of honey while focusing on the control of diseases and mites. The Changing Fundamentals of Beekeeping is open to all interested beekeepers as well as individuals interested in becoming beekeepers. All participants will receive an updated edition of The Fundamentals of Beekeeping as a course guide and a 20% discount on the purchase of all for- sale beekeeping education materials. Please help us prepare for your visit Registrations will be accepted by fax or mail through April 29, 1999. A minimum of 20 participants are required so register early. Walk-in registrations will be accepted only as space allows. The registration fee includes all conference fees, parking, and break service. Name Accompanying name Organization name Address City State Zip Code Daytime Phone (area code) FAX (area code) E-mail address _____ $60 Individual registration fee _____ $90 Couple registration fee _____ $40 One day registration fee Day attending ADD $10 LATE registration fee after April 29 Total Registration Payment $ ________ Please make checks payable to Penn State or charge by Visa/Mastercard. Account number exp. date Authorization signature Cancellations received after April 29 are not eligible for full refunds. Please return preregistration form and payment to: Changing Fundamentals of Beekeeping The Pennsylvania State University 306 Ag Administration Building University Park, PA 16802-2601 Telephone: (814) 865-8301 FAX: (814) 865-7050 A minimum of 20 participants are required. ACCOMMODATIONS Dormitory housing will be available May 13 and 14 in North Halls on the University Park Campus. Pre-registration and one-night non-refundable payment is required to guarantee the housing reservation. Payment must be made directly to Housing Conference Services, 125 Johnston Commons, Penn State, University Park, PA 16802. Call toll free (800) 778-8006 or return the housing registration form by mail or fax (814) 865-0081. Room reservation deadline is April 29, 1999. A single room rate is $34 and double rate is $24.50 per person/night, including a continental breakfast. Check-in is 4:00 p.m. and check out is noon. Overnight accommodations are limited in State College and on the University Park Campus due to Penn State graduation ceremonies on May 16. A list of alternative hotels in the State College area is available on request. CANCELLATION The University reserves the right to cancel or postpone any course activity due to insufficient enrollment (for Beekeeper's Program less than 20 persons) or other unforeseen circumstances. If the short course is canceled or postponed, the University will refund registration fees but cannot be held responsible for other costs, charges, or expenses, including cancellation/change charges assessed by airlines or travel agencies. Visit the College of Agricultural Sciences Web site for information on this other conferences: http:/www.cas.psu.edu/docs/ CASCONF This publication is available in alternative media on request. The Pennsylvania State University is committed to the policy that all persons shall have equal access to programs, facilities, admission, and employment without regard to personal characteristics not related to ability, performance, or qualifications as determined by University policy or by state or federal authorities. The Pennsylvania State University does not discriminate against any person because of age, ancestry, color, disability or handicap, national origin, race, religious creed, sex, sexual orientation, or veteran status. Direct all inquiries regarding the nondiscrimination policy to the Affirmative Action Director, The Pennsylvania State University, 201 Willard Building, University Park, PA 16802-2801: tel. (814) 865-4700/V; (814) 863-1150/TTY. -Penn State encourages persons with disabilities to participate in its programs and activities. If you anticipate needing any type of accommodation or have questions about the physical access provided, please contact Debra Sheaffer Ellis at (814) 865-8301/V; (814) 865-1204/TTY in advance of your participation or visit. Maryann Frazier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:07:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Kids and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim and friends, According to several specialists in apitherapy, bee venom therapy (beekeeping too) can be applied (used) after 12 years old. There are always exceptions, but the above is the general rule... Everything depends also on your son's constitution, immune, endocrine system general and local blood flow. Of course, the best person to ask about this is your family doctor and/or your allergologist. Your local allergologist could build up slowly your son's immune system against potential BV allergy, through BV injections, starting of course with "homeopathic" doses. There are many methods to prevent the really "bad" BV allergic reactions and/or to treat them. More on this you can find by visiting our web sites: www.sci.fi/~apither www.beesting.com Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro PS One important trick: have always at hand, besides Epipen or Anakit, also a bottle with Propolis Tincture! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:10:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris, The bees are doing fine in Europe as in many other parts of our world for millions of years without any refined sugar. Their anatomy is prepared to support long winters. If this wouldn't be the case, they wouldn't survive until now, isn't it my friends? On the other hand, here in Romania, we have always in winter (January-February usually) a couple of warm days which are enough for the bees to make their cleansing. Somebody may think that the bees needs in winter only "energy" and for this reason sugar is just fine... In order to give energy, warmness for example, not only dynamic energy, a cell or a group of cells needs also enzymes, vitamins, trace elements. Refined sugar has NOTHING from the above mentioned elements my dear friends... and it is a "foreign" substance (a "non-self" if you want) from the evolution point of view. Kind regards, Stefan. :-)) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:12:22 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan Stangaciu wrote: In order to give energy, warmness for example, not only dynamic > energy, a cell or a group of cells needs also enzymes, vitamins, trace > elements. > > Refined sugar has NOTHING from the above mentioned elements my dear > friends... and it is a "foreign" substance (a "non-self" if you want) > from the evolution point of view. It is for this reason that bees store not only honey (energy source) but also pollen as a source of protein, vitamins and minerals for their total metabolic needs. For energy, sugars will do just fine, and are what they normally collect anyway. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:11:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Kashmir Bee Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello All, I have just been presented with two totally opposing views with regard to this virus. (1) It is very dangerous and will result in the death of the colony. (2) It is not a serious problem and it is endemic in various parts of t= he world. They cannot both be right. Has anyone personal experience of it? I understand it is quite common in New Zealand. Would anyone in that count= ry care to comment, please. Over sixty years of beekeeping and still learning. Sid P. Southern England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:37:42 -0800 Reply-To: snielsen@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > Refined sugar has NOTHING from the above mentioned elements my dear > friends... and it is a "foreign" substance (a "non-self" if you want) > from the evolution point of view. For that matter, neither are Langstroth hive boxes natural to bees, or frames designed to cause the bees to draw comb on straight foundations. Neither is having the boxes reversed from time to time to force the queen to use areas of the hive the beekeeper wishes her to use. Neither is having the top of the hive opened every now and then, permitting smoke and light to flood in. The object of our endeavor is not to reproduce natural conditions in our apiaries. It is to manage the bees for maximum production of brood and byproducts of the hive. What advantage, other than an aesthetic one, is there to maintaing bees in Natural Conditions? If they exist in natural conditions, they are not Kept, nor even Had, but simply allowed. Susan -- Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:07:42 -0700 Reply-To: darn@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Oil Seed Rape Honey In-Reply-To: <199902121154.EAA37508@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, j h & e mcadam wrote: > I would appreciate any suggestions as to how we can extend the shelf life of > canola honey, remembering we have no control over it once it has left our shed. Hi Betty: I have been selling liquid rapeseed honey in glass jars for many years. I run it into the jars directly from the filter, where it solidifies in about 3 weeks. To reliquify it I put the jars in a space heated to 120 degrees fahrenheit for about 24 hours. The result is a sparkling clear product which stays liquid for about 3 months at room temperature. The flavor is not as nice as the original. It loses most of its sourish taste and there is some darkening, but this apparently is what people want to buy. I am willing to reliquify the jars for the storekeeper if they regranulate on his shelves, but you should only do this once, otherwise the darkening becomes apparent. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:49:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Hougen-Eitzman Subject: Two-queen hives MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello all - I am new to the list and already appreciate the variety of topics that people discuss. I have been keeping four beehives at my organic vegetable farm for about five years now (mainly for pollination of raspberries and cucurbit crops), and this year I've decided to put more effort into managing my bees for honey production, as well as have some fun with learning more about my bees. I have some questions about two-queen hives - I apologize if this subject has been discussed recently. I have read some recent articles that mention two-queen hives and would like to experiment with this on two of my hives this year, but what I've read so far has been woefully deficient in details. I have overwintered my hives with three deep hive bodies each, and my plan so far is to divide the colonies vertically with a queen excluder and then introduce a new queen into the portion that ends up without a queen (as well as move some brood if necessary). My questions are: 1). Is my plan an appropriate way to create a two-queen hive? 2). How long should the hive have two queens? I was planning to keep two queens only part-way through the main honey-flow, but I'm not sure at what point to remove the older queen. I have read that the benefits of the two-queen hive is a larger force for foragers (which builds up before the main honey flow begins), and this large force is only necessary during the main honey flow - hence my plan to remove the second queen after the honey flow begins. 3). Once the two-queen hive is established, should I separate the two halves of the hive with honey supers - that is, should I put honey supers on top of the lower queen, followed by the upper queen, then topped with more honey supers? I have read that if the two queens are separated only by a queen excluder that they will spend most of their time trying to fight each other. 4) Finally, does the presence of two queens in the hive before and during the main honey flow reduce swarming? I am sure that there are disagreements on the advantages and disadvantages of two-queen hives, and a discussion of the merits of two-queen hives would be great, but right now I am especially interested in some practical how-to information. I'd also be interested in titles of any books or articles that give management info on two-queen hives. Thank you! David Hougen-Eitzman Big Woods Farm Nerstrand, MN. USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:55:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: Hand Fertilization of Unfertilized Eggs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Haberl wrote some interesting stuff recently about fertilisation of drone eggs. The procedure sounded easy (compared to AI that is). Has the technique been used much Michael? What for and what was the success rate? Anyone out there have experience of the technique or any further references? Any opinions, for or against, the use of the technique in a breeding program? cheers Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Fxrsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Hxgskolen i Sxr-Trxndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:01:53 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dalby Subject: Re: Safe and appropriate age for children's involvment in bee keeping. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both our children have been involved in our bee operation from an early age,Naomi received her first sting when only a few days old but despite 2 very worried parents came to no apparent harm. Rebekah was older. Both the girls had their first beesuits before they were 2 years old. Naomi is now 15 and strange things in trousers are more interesting but Rebekah (12) still goes out with me and thinks nothing of working 20 or 30 hives alongside me. During the whole of their lives there have been a couple of hives in the garden and often in summer their friends visit to look at the bees, rabbits and other animals. Both children have assisted in public demonstrations of bee handling since before they were school age. Rebekah is more than happy to demonstrate to others how to sting for therapeutic purposes by stinging her own arm. I would say get kids involved with the bees if they are interested, but do take some precautions== 1 Only keep bees that are even tempered 2 Make sure the children have proper protective gear, we use one piece jacket and veils made by E H Thorne near Lincoln England. 3 the adult handling the bees must be competent and not get flustered no matter what happens 4 remember accidents do occasionally happen and no matter how careful we are sooner or later the child may well get stung. A cuddle and reassurance works wonders 5 My wife talked to our GP after Naomi`s1st sting and he prescribed piriton paediatric syrup in case it was needed which I dont remember us having to use, except for multiple stings. This happened on one occasion when Rebekah knocked a hive over and got quite a few. Once we had soothed her I found Naomi had already put the hive back to rights without using smoker or veil and had not got stung in the process. I think my children benefited from the bees in the garden and we spent many hours watching and handling them and also the various other "bugs & beasties" that made their home with us. I know that if I am not @ home when one of the people we supply bees to for bee venom therapy comes round the girls are competent and can get bees out for them. Peter Peter and Barbara Dalby, England E-mail: peter.pebadale@virgin.net barbara.dalby@virgin.net Web Site: http://freespace.virgin.net/peter.pebadale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:57:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Susan Nielsen wrote: >The object of our endeavor is not to reproduce natural conditions >in our apiaries. It is to manage the bees for maximum production >of brood and byproducts of the hive. What advantage, other than an >aesthetic one, is there to maintaing bees in Natural Conditions? >If they exist in natural conditions, they are not Kept, nor even >Had, but simply allowed. > >Susan > >-- >Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, >snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. The problem I see is that too many beekeepers wants to obtain too much from what you call "maximum production of brood and byproducts of the hive." Forcing the bees to give more and more, only for OUR advantage, may be more dangerous than we usually think... Beekeeping should be, in my opinion, not an excessive "industry", but a harmonious, scientifically based "cooperation" between us and Nature. Sincerely, Stefan Stangaciu, Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:42:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Ted Fischer wrote: >It is for this reason that bees store not only honey (energy source) but also >pollen as a source of protein, vitamins and minerals for their total metabolic >needs. For energy, sugars will do just fine, and are what they normally >collect anyway. > >Ted Fischer >Dexter, Michigan USA Yes, you are right, a STRONG colony will go in winter with enough pollen (bee bread reserves). The questions are: * how often are the colonies really helped to enter strong in winter? * how often the beekeepers are really looking or measuring the amount of bee bread, honey, propolis a bee colony has BEFORE wintering? * sugar processing, done on the bees biochemical expense will not diminish the total reserve of vitamins, proteins, minerals from the hive, just before wintering? As far as I know, normal honey has at least 70% mono-sacharides which needs NO processing, while sugar is 100% a di-sacharide which needs it entirely. So, the conclusions I can take here are: * sugar is a good source of energy, but it takes also a lot of bio-energy in order to be processed; in other words, the bees which will process, in their own body the refined sugar will get metabolically speaking TIRED, even exhausted, especially if they have not all necessary vitamins, enzymes (bee bread, honey, propolis) etc. necessary for this processing; * tired bees (colony) = lethal risks under bacterial and viruses infections specific for the cold seasons; * a weak bee (colony) can transmit the viruses, before dying, to other new born bees (other colonies); these other bees (colonies), even if they have been strong at the beginning, under a long and difficult winter may die too; I think that this theory may explain why there are so many beekeepers, all over the world, which are very disciplined and listen to the "authorities" but they find lately in spring more than 30-60% from their colonies dead... What are these disciplined beekeepers do? They: * treat with Apistan and alike after they took as much as possible honey from their hives, producing in most cases what is called a immunitary "depression" (weakening); * replace the rich in nutrients, enzymes, minerals etc. honey with the extremely poor sugar; processing this sugar, again, will consume from the bees bodies many minerals, enzymes, nutrients, thus increasing, second time, the "chance" to obtain a really weak resistance against viruses, bacterias, fungi, parasites... * even if that colony will not die during the winter, she will be able to transmit the above mentioned infectious factors to other colonies, or worse to, other apiaries in early spring... I know that this subject is very sensitive for many beekeepers which use probably for years this old "sugar methodology". I receive also private "advises" to be more "cautious" with my opinions in order not to disturb some important people from the list... I may be wrong, but I feel that sooner or later our best scientists will find other methods, more bio-ecologically ones, in favor of our bee colonies and not in our personal budget... I believe that Nature, or God if you prefer, has found the best ways to select the strongest bee colonies through millions of years of evolution, and we, "clever" humans, have still a lot to learn... Sincerely, as always, Stefan Stangaciu, Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:29:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Nicholson Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. In-Reply-To: <199902121440.GAA12038@alto1.altonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 16:10 +0100 2/12/99, Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > The bees are doing fine in Europe as in many other parts of our world >for millions of years without any refined sugar. They don't do so well if they run out of food in the winter > Their anatomy is prepared to support long winters. And they need something to eat to do so. > If this wouldn't be the case, they wouldn't survive until now, isn't it >my friends? They didn't have varroa until recently, and when we share their honey, we may have to help them in the winter. > On the other hand, here in Romania, we have always in winter >(January-February usually) a couple of warm days which are enough for the >bees to make their cleansing. > > Somebody may think that the bees needs in winter only "energy" and for >this reason sugar is just fine... > > In order to give energy, warmness for example, not only dynamic >energy, a cell or a group of cells needs also enzymes, vitamins, trace >elements. They have enough of these enzymes in their cells that they can metabolize sugar just fine. Maybe they can't do it forever, but it serves to fill in the gaps. > Refined sugar has NOTHING from the above mentioned elements my dear >friends... and it is a "foreign" substance (a "non-self" if you want) >from the evolution point of view. No doubt there are some substances in some honeys that are not beneficial to bees also. They have to eliminate or breakdown these substances. Bee's don't grow after they emerge, so their protein needs are low. They collect pollen and salts to get needed minerals to augment natural honey and they have to do the same to augment sugar. When you break things down into natural=good and manmade=bad you are oversimplyfying a complex sistuation. They can't raise larvae on honey alone any more than they can raise larvae on sugar alone. I just started a hive in December with no stores, feeding only refined sugar. The bees are able to forage some for pollen now and are now raising lots of brood. WIthout the refined sugar, these bee's would have died. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:35:14 -0800 Reply-To: snielsen@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. Stefan writes: > Beekeeping should be, in my opinion, not an excessive "industry", but a >harmonious, scientifically based "cooperation" between us and Nature. I think it is more than clear that if we fail to accomodate the bees, the bees will decline to accomodate us. The ability to successfully judge the needs of the hive in balance with our own wishes is what makes a beekeeper's apiary distinct from hobby yard. It's what we all would like to achieve. Susan -- Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:23:12 -0600 Reply-To: lithar@midwest.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Safe and appropriate age for children's involvment in bee keeping. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, I couldn't agree more. My 10 yr old daughter never misses a trip to our apiary to work the bees or just sit quietly and watch them come and go - sometimes we sit for over an hour. She is an avid reader and delights in explaining the activities we observe. Her confidence is boosted by reliable equipment but understands that stings will happen even with protective gear. At the first beekeeper's meeting we attended she was noticeably deflated when someone said you couldn't be a beekeper if you haven't been stung. A week or two later when she was stung it was like a rite of passage for her. Funny how with her dad there are just watery eyes but with mom the damn bursts open:) Even if we never get more than a cupful of honey from our efforts, the opportunity this creates for me to spend time with my kids is invaluable. My 6yr old son seems greatly indifferent and finds even the thought of a sting not worth any effort or reward - maybe he's a fisherman. BTW, I've told her she can't date till she's 30 - think that will work? AL Peter Dalby wrote: > > Both our children have been involved in our bee operation from an early > age,Naomi received her first sting when only a few days old but despite 2 > very worried parents came to no apparent harm. Rebekah was older. Both the > girls had their first beesuits before they were 2 years old. Naomi is now 15 > and strange things in trousers are more interesting but Rebekah (12) still > goes out with me and thinks nothing of working 20 or 30 hives alongside me. > During the whole of their lives there have been a couple of hives in > the garden and often in summer their friends visit to look at the bees, > rabbits and other animals. Both children have assisted in public > demonstrations of bee handling since before they were school age. Rebekah is > more than happy to demonstrate to others how to sting for therapeutic > purposes by stinging her own arm. I would say get kids involved with the > bees if they are interested, but do take some precautions== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:24:27 +1300 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus In-Reply-To: <199811132303.XAA18450@ifb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sid Pullinger wrote to ask about the presence and experience in New Zealand where "Kashmir bee virus" has been found. I am pleased to provide some info, as this bogey has been surfacing for a period of time to be used against NZ bees... Our industry has had a long history of having to struggle for market access of all sorts, when really the circumstances don't seem to support the problems we've had. Kashmir bee virus could only be described as one of the *minor* interests of beekeeping. In practical terms, it can't even be called a problem - it isn't 'knowable' to a normal beekeeper. It has no symptoms, no loss of bees, no real effect. It is one of the zillion and one virii (like that word?) that can be found. Kind of like gum tree species in Australia (A: "How many species of gum trees?" A:"As many as there are botanists who have ever wanted to have a species named after them.") Dr Denis Anderson of CSIRO has stated on a number of occasions that Kashmir bee virus has been found in *every* population of honeybees where it has been looked for by the accepted methodology. Read that sentence again. It seems highly likely that KBV is one of those endemic virii (there: two good words in a row...) that are present in all honeybees, and cause no practical or scientific problems at all. That is not to say there isn't some credence to the virus/mite combination problems, particularly as described in the US over the last few years. But there is *absolutely no evidence* that KMB, simply because it is a virus, has any such effect (affect? Never have gotten those two right). And while on the subject of KBV, once the US *did* look for KBV using the appropriate lab tests, they found it. But lo, and behold, it was clear from the DNA involved that it had *not been introduced from NZ*. That is, the KBV strain in the US did not originate from NZ. Further evidence that KBV is just one of those creatures that accompany bees wherever and whenever they move... Let's call a spade a spade: the resistence to NZ bees is political and obstructive in nature. It is not founded in science, it is based in market protectionism. NZ bees have probably been investigated as intensively for pests/diseases as any equivalent population. Our industry paid for a pathologist (Dr Denis Anderson, mentioned above) for two or three (can't remember) years to conduct a serious survey of what we have here, etc. And it is just unfortunate (?) that over the last 50 years, we have had some very capable and keen apicultural scientists - Dr Trevor Palmer-Jones, Dr Pat Clinch, Dr Mark Goodwin and many others - who have exhaustively examined and surveyed our bees. The result is that they *did* find a few things that haven't been found in other places in the world - and most of them can't be found here any more either (!). They just really don't count in terms of 'real problems', but are being used against us when we try for market access... Sorry to rave on, but I don't think our industry has (will?) feel the benefits of globalisation and free market economy before we lose, ultimately, what can/should be an excellent advantage - our relative freedom from the pests/diseases of overseas. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... A number of recipes showcasing honey? Email to: recipes@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:13:30 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Interlink Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heres my take on the KBV. It is very harmful to bees with the mites and the mites seem to act as a vector for the KBV. It seems to endemic in Australia and NZ. They are free of mites according to their marketing info. The KBV has been found in several places in US and Canada. Bees with mites and KBV seem to have no hope for cure. The International movement of honeybees seems to be speeding up the widespresd distribution of KBV. For my part until we prove a vital need to move bees around the world, besides proprietory needs, that we should restrict the movement of honey bees known to have KBV. Many will disagree and they have honey bees for sale that have KBV endemic to their honey bees. Hoping this will get posted and that is helpful to your question. Walter Patton -----Original Message----- From: Sid Pullinger To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 8:19 AM Subject: Kashmir Bee Virus >Hello All, I have just been presented with two totally opposing views >with regard to this virus. >(1) It is very dangerous and will result in the death of the colony. >(2) It is not a serious problem and it is endemic in various parts of t= >he >world. >They cannot both be right. Has anyone personal experience of it? I >understand it is quite common in New Zealand. Would anyone in that count= >ry >care to comment, please. >Over sixty years of beekeeping and still learning. > Sid P. Southern England > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:54:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. In-Reply-To: <918861714.2026627.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 > * how often the beekeepers are really looking or measuring the amount of >bee bread, honey, propolis a bee colony has BEFORE wintering? > > * sugar processing, done on the bees biochemical expense will not >diminish the total reserve of vitamins, proteins, minerals from the hive, >just before wintering? What do you mean by this. We find that a colony fed going into winter stands a far better chance of survival than one which is not, irrespective of how much honey stores they may have. The simulated flow created by the feeding often encourages a further brood cycle, thus more young bees for spring. > As far as I know, normal honey has at least 70% mono-sacharides which >needs NO processing, while sugar is 100% a di-sacharide which needs it >entirely. Largely true, but then they go and add their natural enzymes anyway. Also much of the feeding undertaken in North America, and some in N Europe as well, consists of pre inverted sugars, and mono saccharides. (Such as HFCS in USA and Canada: mainly fructose.) > > * sugar is a good source of energy, but it takes also a lot of >bio-energy in order to be processed; in other words, the bees which will >process, in their own body the refined sugar will get metabolically speaking >TIRED, even exhausted, especially if they have not all necessary vitamins, >enzymes (bee bread, honey, propolis) etc. necessary for this processing; > > * tired bees (colony) = lethal risks under bacterial and viruses >infections specific for the cold seasons; > > * a weak bee (colony) can transmit the viruses, before dying, to other >new born bees (other colonies); these other bees (colonies), even if they >have been strong at the beginning, under a long and difficult winter may die >too; This is DANGEROUSLY misleading, especially to beginners. I have NEVER, EVER seen a colony end up in such a severly debilitated state through feeding, experience gathered over around 50 years of myself and my father. Your argument is like saying 'Do not work for a living, or take exercise, as you can get tired, or exhausted, and then you are at risk from a variety of causes.' Probably true, but it conveniently ignores the fact that both you, and the well fed bee colony, are well over the 'gain line' after expending the energy you mention. They are better, stronger, and fitter AFTER you have fed them than before. It is correct that the individual worker bee involved in processing the sugar will have expended some of its biological potential, but this is more than offset by the benefits of raising a later cycle of brood, and the absence of gut filling solids in the winter stores. You have taken one fact and extrapolated it without regard for the other interlinked factors and arrived at an alarming conclusion which has no correlation to the real situation. > I think that this theory may explain why there are so many beekeepers, >all over the world, which are very disciplined and listen to the >"authorities" but they find lately in spring more than 30-60% from their >colonies dead... These levels of losses are RARE. They do sometimes happen, and are often linked to a variety of factors. Linking it to the practice of feeding is a strange leap of the imagination, when it is often the poor season before (lack of young bees going into winter, often RECTIFIED by feeding) which is the prime factor in having vulnerable colonies. (They have not done ENOUGH beneficial work, rather than having done too much and burned themselves out) >* replace the rich in nutrients, enzymes, minerals etc. honey with the >extremely poor sugar; processing this sugar, again, will consume from the >bees bodies many minerals, enzymes, nutrients, thus increasing, second time, >the "chance" to obtain a really weak resistance against viruses, bacterias, >fungi, parasites... If you think this is even remotely true you should try wintering bees on these 'rich' stores. Honeys such as pine ( which is available throughout much of the Balkans) and others, and in our own case heather, are all rich in the items you desire. Under circumstances where there are long periods without bee flight these types of honey in the stores can have very serious consequences indeed for the bees welfare. They contain much which the bees cannot digest and fill the gut too rapidly leading to defecation inside the hive. Nosema and other complaints spiral exponentially killing the colony very quickly, which is a lot less likely to occur with 'clean' stores. In deep winter brood rearing is either absent or at a minimal level. Primary requirement is only for energy for heat, and fed stores fulfil this need very well, often better than honey which can contain much which is not needed at this time. > I know that this subject is very sensitive for many beekeepers which use >probably for years this old "sugar methodology". > > I receive also private "advises" to be more "cautious" with my opinions >in order not to disturb some important people from the list... Say what you like. It is a free expression medium, but do not expect to go unchallenged if you come up with a contentious statement. The experience level of the participants varies from lifetime professionals with many thousands of colony/years under their belts, to first year hobbyists with only one or two hives. All are free to have their say, as it is supposed to be about informed discussion of bee issues, and each person offers their own perspective on things. This inevitably means there will be disagreement. However, I reject your statement about disturbing important people. In my first couple of months participating I ran across a few problems like that, but have come to realise that there are NO important participants and NO unimportant participants. Just people. If they, or I, or you, think they/I/you are important, then perhaps being disturbed is well deserved. > I may be wrong, but I feel that sooner or later our best scientists will >find other methods, more bio-ecologically ones, in favor of our bee colonies >and not in our personal budget... This is all very well, and reflects a very high ideal. But without effective commercial management of colonies it would be difficult to obtain sufficient supplies of honey for demand to be satisfied. Your country is a significant source of good quality honey for the international market, which must make some contribution to your national budget. Sensible maximisation of this has got to make sense. > Sincerely, as always, > > Stefan Stangaciu, > Constanta, Romania > apither@gmb.ro Kind regards to all Murray -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:05:41 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Igor P." Subject: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all! In a 1995 I have tried to collect bee venom. Has collected 100 grammes. I have a problem (3.5 years) - I do not know firms purchasing bee venom. Somebody can to me help? Or will inform information on products which include bee venom as an ingredient and e-mail (or address) of their manufacturers. Thank you. The best ratioes Igor Purtov pig@udmnet.ru P.S. I am sorry for bad translation and supplied inconvenience. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:08:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "thiele.consult" Subject: organic beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Stefan Stangaciu is right in this point: sooner or later our best scientists willfind other methods, more bio-ecologically ones, in favor of our bee colonies and not in our personal budget...I believe that Nature, or God if you prefer, has found the best ways toselect the strongest bee colonies through millions of years of evolution,and we, "clever" humans, have still a lot to learn... It's true Nature has found the best way: Once upon a time we had a strong honeybee. But nowadays in some countries beekeepers are not working according Nature (using artificial breeding methods, pesticides ...). This is the reason why the honeybee is getting weaker and weaker. Organic beekeeping is able to stop the decline of honeybees. Friendly yours Michael Thiele T+T Consult International Certifier for Organic Beekeeping thiele.consult@t-online.de ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:21:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Paul Nicholson wrote: > >The bees don't do so well if they run out of food in the winter Yes, if the beekeeper is to greedy and takes too much from the honey the bees deserve for wintering. >They didn't have varroa until recently, and when we share their honey, we >may have to help them in the winter. Parasites, microbes, viruses have been always on Earth. Human's mistakes not. >They have enough of these enzymes in their cells that they can metabolize >sugar just fine. Maybe they can't do it forever, but it serves to fill in >the gaps. How do you know, for sure, that they have "enough of these enzymes in their cells"? How do you quantify this, with mathematically precision in order to be 100% sure of success? It is already known by everybody that Any substance processing in the bee body needs energy, enzymes, vitamins, nutrients and so on. Why shall we not leave them enough PROPER, well selected honey for wintering without overwhelming them with extra-metabolical charges? >Bee's don't grow after they emerge, so their protein needs are low. Are you sure? The nurse bees which feeds the queen and all larvae needs a lot of proteins to synthesize royal jelly and brood food. The "guardians" especially needs proteins to synthesize bee venom and so on... >They can't raise larvae on honey alone any more than they can raise larvae >on sugar alone. Did you experiment this on long term and on several colonies as is the case with most of the industrial beekeepers which loose up to 60% of their colonies during wintering? >I just started a hive in December with no stores, feeding only refined >sugar. The bees are able to forage some for pollen now and are now raising >lots of brood. Without the refined sugar, these bee's would have died. Your bees can survive as well with good, natural honey as they did in the last 50 millions years. Stefan. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:39:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Susan Nielsen writes: > >> Beekeeping should be, in my opinion, not an excessive "industry", but a >>harmonious, scientifically based "cooperation" between us and Nature. > >I think it is more than clear that if we fail to accommodate the bees, >the bees will decline to accommodate us. The bees will be probably always "wild" things even if we like to think that they are "domesticated". To "accommodate" the bees, if we want maximum "cooperation" and crops from them we need to play under THEIR rules and not to: * "rob" them in excess of their so hardly obtained reserves (honey, pollen, propolis etc.); * "poison" them, with or without our direct will; there are already thousands of different pesticides, the air ad water is so polluted and what are we doing? How do we help our bees to detox? By giving them more toxins through aggressive medications, through smokers and so on... * "exploit" excessively their bodies through extra-biochemical works: sugar processing, medications processing a.s.o. * "experiment" on them by mixing bees and queens from all over the world in our apiary; remember how these human "gentle" experiments have brought to us the "killer" bees; it is probably OK to read in the books, or see on TV people killed by the feral AHB, but how will you think about these experiments when, let's say you will have these colonies nesting in your back yard? I am still of the opinion that we, human beings, are not yet so "mature" to play with other living beings as we would like. Yes, I agree that we learn from mistakes, but these mistakes should be done only by researchers, on small scales, and not by thousands of beekeepers which thinks mainly to their pocket and not to their bees. "Bee-keeping" should not mean "bee-robing", "bee-poisoning", "bee-exploiting", "bee-experimenting", isn't it my friends? Stefan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 04:16:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Hutton Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: Requeening during winter CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 437 MSGID: 240:244/116 5803c26b REPLY: 240:44/0 cfc2a7f1 PID: FDAPX/w 1.12a UnReg(568) Hi Francois & Beatrice, I am flummoxed as to why you wish to requeen a colony in the winter in europe, this is most unnatural for the bees. Is it because you believe them to be queenless? If they are truly queenless then you might be better advised to unite them. Are the bees still numerous? are they dwindling, if the latter then by all means unite them, but be cautious they might actually have a virgin queen which will defintely kill a laying queen not vice versa. If you err on the side of caution leave it a little longer until April when you can get some queens still from the antipodes. Noveau Zeeland perhaps. Or May from your own stocks. Bon chance et felictation peter.hutton@btinternet.com --- * Origin: Kent Beekeeper Beenet Point (240:244/116) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:27:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan, I implore you to stop your "bee-exploiting" and "bee-experimenting" in your practice of Apitherapy. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > "Bee-keeping" should not mean "bee-robing", "bee-poisoning", > "bee-exploiting", "bee-experimenting", isn't it my friends? > > Stefan. -- If there is a zz before clinic.net, remove it to reply directly. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:52:29 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Kashmir bee virus In-Reply-To: <199902121812.EAA22342@iccu5.ipswich.gil.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sid wrote:- > Hello All, I have just been presented with two totally opposing views > with regard to this virus. > (1) It is very dangerous and will result in the death of the colony. > (2) It is not a serious problem and it is endemic in various parts = of t=3D > he > world. > They cannot both be right. Has anyone personal experience of it? I > understand it is quite common in New Zealand. Would anyone in that cou= nt=3D > ry > care to comment, please. Let me put some facts to the list. Kashmir bee virus (KBV) has never been associated with a colony death in = Australia. It can be found as an inapparent infection in bees. Canada stoped importing live bees from Australia because of KBV. This = decision was reversed about 1987. KBV was found in Canada about 4 to 5 = years ago. The USA has been using the excuse of KBV to not accept live = bees from Australia. KBV has been found in the USA but it will still not= accept live bees from Australia. I wonder what excuse they are using = now. Hawaii claims that they do not have KBV but I am informed that there has = been no disease surveys done in Hawaii and that they have, in the viruses= , sacbrood but they do not know what else. Hawaii stopped Australia from= transhipping live bees through Hawaii because of viruses about 1994 whic= h, by co-incidence, was the same time that Hawaii gained access to Canada= for queen bees. The United Kingdom would not accept queen bees from Australia because we = had KBV but would accept them from New Zealand, which had KBV. This situ= ation has now changed. Now for some reasoning. I don't think that anyone would suggest that the= USA and Canada did not previously have KBV until it was sudenly found. = I would suggest that it has been in those two countries for a long tim= e prior to detection. The USA had been exporting breeder queens to Australia, New Zealand, Hawa= ii and I imagine many other countries for many years. New Zealand stoppe= d a while back, Australia put in place a strict quarantine protocol about= 1983 and Hawaii stopped when mites were found. I would put it to the = list that it seeems reasonable to assume the viruses would have been spre= ad around the world with these bees. So unless a country does a comprehensive disease survey, they cannot say = that they do not have KBV. Australia has done this and we know what we = have. So Sid, I can say that KBV does not kill colonies in Australia and in my = 5 years as an Apiary Inspector, I never saw any hive decline that was att= ributed to KBV. KBV has basically been used as a non-tarriff barrier. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:05:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: organic beekeeping In-Reply-To: <918910668.2124860.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 >It's true Nature has found the best way: Once upon a time we had a strong >honeybee. But nowadays in some countries beekeepers are not working according >Nature (using artificial breeding methods, pesticides ...). This is the reason >why the honeybee is getting weaker and weaker. > >Organic beekeeping is able to stop the decline of honeybees. > Whilst not wishing to get involved in debate about organic beekeeping or any other organic matters, I should like to know why you are of the opinion that honeybees are getting weaker and weaker? I have neither seen nor heard any evidence to that effect. To me this sounds like claiming a cure for a non existent complaint. On the other hand there are nowadays several strains of commercial bee bred for certain types of environment. If you have met some placed in the wrong environment it is quite possible that you could have arrived at your conclusion. I had this experience with some southern USA caucasians which were useless in Scotland as they had no resistance to acarine mites. This was my fault for using a poorly adapted bee, and nothing whatsoever to do with the bees being weak. In their own environment they would have been fine, with or without organic measures. murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:44:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Re: 'Natural' ideology and Sugar and bees wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Nicholson said=20 When you break things down into Natural =3D good and manmade =3D bad you = are oversimplifying a complex situation. I am a hobbyist bee keeper - and do the best I can to do all things = "naturally" or "organically": but I don't find that feeding bees sugar - = an organic substance - inhibits their progress or diminishes their = health. =20 To Stephans' point - sometimes we need to think about new methods and = rethink the methods that we are currently using; however, it is always = a welcomed comment that says "the old way does not work well, we need to = be more natural. __Here is documentation on my successful experiment = which demonstrates what I claim.__" When my bee's seemed a little low = on stores this winter, I fed them their own honey(not that I recommend = the same to other bee keepers or commercial operations.) I plan to = continue to do this. =20 I do wonder, though, if one can claim that bee venom therapy is = 'natural' or 'good for the health of the bees' or if administrating = venom therapy via a hypodermic needle is 'natural'. NOTE: I do not = challenge the effectiveness venom therapy, or the practice of = administrating it. I just see an inconsistent application of 'do it = natural' ideology for the feeding of bees in the winter. =20 Tim Rich=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:42:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim & Sue Maus Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If Romanian Beekeeping was such a knowledgeable repository of all the proper things of keeping bees they would be a world leader in bee disease treatment, honey production, etc. I think Stefan's mission is to agitate since he is a "Dr." not a very experienced beekeeper. Because many of us have financial and other interests at risk. We are accused of "exploitive" beekeeping many of us would go broke, bankrupt etc. if we practiced beekeeping as Stefan would have us to do. I think many of his ideas are not well thought out and certainly he does not know about what he is speaking about some of this..........its idealism not realism ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:05:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Kashmir bee virus In-Reply-To: <199902131625.IAA25357@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:52 AM 2/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >years ago. The USA has been using the excuse of KBV to not accept live = >bees from Australia. KBV has been found in the USA but it will still not= > accept live bees from Australia. I wonder what excuse they are using = >now. Ye Gads, we still buy your honey don't we, when was the last time you purchased some of ours? Actually the US does not accept bees from any foreign country other then Canada... humm ... or do we still do that. Seems to me that if someone wanted stock from NZ they could get them via Canada, but who would want it? Anyway these are really non issues here in the US, and many of us would allow importation of stock from all over the world if we could, including myself, but I must say I would not look down under to improve on what we have as there are other more promising selection areas that have had honey bees a lot longer. Chow, the OLd Drone (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:20:32 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: We now Know Better, But Can We Change? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, my neighbours and I, after attending a Super Canola workshop at a nearby town, decided it was time to open some hives and to see if I need to run to the bank and arrange to buy packages. (See 'What's New' at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ for the workshop slides). You see, we had fed several semi-truckloads of refined white sugar to the bees last fall in the understanding that this would enhance the wintering of the bees. We had no idea what a huge mistake we were making; you see, this, unfortunately, was before we read a brilliant rhetotical essay on this very list, pointing out the evils of the practice. On reading the article, I realized immediately, that our western ways have been developed over many years under direct influence from empirical data and hard experience gathered by dedicated scientists and successful beekeepers, and with vastly insufficient input from rhetoric, unsubstantiated theory, wild leaps of faith, associative logic, allegory, ignorance, whimsy, good old-fashioned misinformation and hunches. I realized I was in deep trouble, and was immediately plunged into stark terror for my fate -- and that of my bees. I could immediately see how I went wrong: If only I had known better, I should have left those bees to winter unmedicated and untreated on that rock-hard Canola honey instead of feeding white sugar, and I should *never* have insulated the hives against the loving carresses of that minus forty degree wind that nature brings in her wisdom to select the bees that are good enough to survive in a territory where bees have never before been able to survive long on their own. I knew immediately that everything I had done on the illusion that I understood the bees and their needs, was being merely selfish and exploitive. And I came to understood how a tiny bit of experience and a tiny bit of expertise in a totally unrelated field in a tiny part of the world and a huge lack of humility and perspective could be effortlessly extended to immediately establish immutable truths for widely varying enterprises in widely scattered and vastly diverse parts of a huge planet, a planet with a climate that ranges from polar to tropical, and populations that vary from primitive to industrial. When we arrived at the site to inspect the bees, we opened the hives humbly and with great trepidation, fearing the worst. What a relief! So far, at least, it appeared that things -- in spite of my ignorant interference with the ways of Nature -- are looking good. We opened about thirty hives (the worst looking) out of eighty, and of the thirty, we found one dead (drone layer?) and two or three looking poor -- with only two to three frames of bees. The rest were looking pretty nice, with large clusters just starting to expand across the top bars of the top box. It is still early to say, since we can have minus forty weather still, but losses seem light so far, and if the weather stays around or a bit above freezing during the days -- as it has recently, we should be smiling this spring. I must say that the trip to the hives did me good, and somewhat -- but not completely -- restored my faith in my old ways and caused me to question, only a little bit, my newfound insight. Maybe -- just maybe -- I do know what I am doing when it comes to bees. Maybe I'm even good at it. Maybe the other hundreds of dedicated commercial beekeepers who manage to eke out a living by understanding their bees and their needs aren't just dumb and greedy after all. Nonetheless, in about a month it will be time to start our annual frenzy of bee abuse and exploitation as we have now come to understand it. I understand it is already under way elsewhere. We'll start, as usual, with forcing unnatural and toxic highly refined white sugar syrup on them and follow that closely with patties of protein and vitamins that are unavailable to bees on their own: soy flour and brewers yeast mixed with pollen stolen by deceit from hives last summer and, of course more of the dreaded white sugar (Bees, like kids are suckers for sweets). If they survive and thrive in spite of our nefarious and ignorant attempts to poison them in the name of nutrition, we will then place grease patties on them, providing lipids they would never encounter in nature along with - - you guessed it folks -- more highly refined white sugar. This by way of introducing drugs. And they can't just say 'No'. If they don't get diabetes or holes in their teeth, which they should according the advanced form of associative, discontinuous and and rhetorical logic we have recently come to love and admire, we will then proceed to spit them up into new colonies headed by degenerate queens raised under artificial conditions by misdirected queen breeders who will have selected their genes merely for the selfish and human-centred purposes of having pride in producing bees that resist disease, winter well, make strong colonies, and produce abundant honey in diverse conditions with minimum management. This will be only the beginning of what we used to (misguidedly) to think of as an annual symbiotic process between man & insect, but which we now understand is merely a brutal distortion and exploitation of nature. We now know better, but it is so hard to change our ways... Allen Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:45:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, The last message written by our common friend, Murray McGregor, was excellent in giving many details and a general feeling that sugar feeding is a good idea. I agree with you, dear Murray, in most of your points. However, * I do not believe that the losses through intensive "industrial" beekeeping are as you say "RARE"; many official general statistics showed, as I said, dangerous losses (over 50% in some industrial beekeeping countries); * I agree that the above losses are not connected ONLY to sugar feeding, but to several factors; however, sugar feeding may be the last bad "drop", among many others, don't you think so? * I believe that having more bees after sugar feeding means NOT necessarily that these bees are more resistant to various diseases; on the contrary... Do you know ANY scientifical study which shows that sugar feeding has really improved the RESISTANCE towards varroa, tracheal mites, AFB a.s.o.? * I'm almost 100% sure that a correct study done on two types of colonies (sugar fed and non-sugar fed) will show that the sugar - fed ones have lower resistance towards varroa and/or other diseases. It's just an hypothesis which may be interesting to verify in practice by experts as you are. Best wishes to all of you, Stefan. PS I enjoy very much our discussions, even if sometimes our spirits seems to go in "flames"... The winners should be our bees and not our "ego-s"... :-)) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:14:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim & Sue Maus wrote: >If Romanian Beekeeping was such a knowledgeable repository of all >the proper things of keeping bees they would be a world leader in >bee disease treatment, honey production, etc. This time is not so far as you may think... :-)) I think Stefan's >mission is to agitate since he is a "Dr." not a very experienced >beekeeper. My mission is to give you new ideas, to make you verify your methods and find new, better ways for everybody: bees, beekeepers, ill people or animals. I have never had in mind to "agitate" you my friends... >Because many of us have financial and other interests at >risk. We are accused of "exploitive" beekeeping many of us would >go broke, bankrupt etc. if we practiced beekeeping as Stefan would >have us to do. You can respect ALL alternative medicine/organic beekeeping requirements even in industrial beekeeping! Not only that you will not go "bankrupt" or "broke", but you will sell much better your products to a continuously increasing market. You may be grateful later to us for this "weird" ideas... > I think many of his ideas are not well thought out >and certainly he does not know about what he is speaking about some >of this..........its idealism not realism Organic beekeeping is for a long time REALITY. Many of us needs though more time than others to be accustomed with new ideas... I believe that all people should have some "idealism", included the "industrial" beekeepers; their new "idealism" could be to give millions of ill people clean, organic honey and other byproducts. Best wishes, Stefan. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Don Rahman Subject: Re: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Stefan, You seem to have all the great ideas I think it's time for you step to the plate and perform the experiments to prove your hypothesis. To some of us this is a business and not something we dabble in for fun, we can not afford to try your untested theories. I'm concerned that a lot of this conversation lately is not informed discussion on beekeeping as it is wild speculation by someone of limited experience. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:55:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-02-13 07:58:48 EST, apither@GMB.RO (Stefan Stangaciu) wrote: (blaming sugar feeding) << most of the industrial beekeepers which loose up to 60% of their colonies during wintering? (snip) Your bees can survive as well with good, natural honey as they did in the last 50 millions years. >> Well the winter losses of the bee trees (before varroa) ran over 60%, and they didn't have any sugar feeding to blame. The trees are resupplied with swarms each spring from beekeepers. So the wild population was declining before varroa; now, for all practical purposes, wild bees just cannot survive without human help. The only year I ever had that kind of winter loss was the first year with tracheal mites. Most years my loss is much less. I put my observations and experience up against what Stefan says, and it just doesn't compute. He's saying that sugar or corn syrup will damage the bees. When a novice beekeeper strongly advocates something that goes against all my previous experience, and that of my friends who have kept bees even longer than myself, it can only mean that he has a God-like assurance of being right, or a quite-human arrogance. On the grounds that maybe God was speaking to me, I went to check some bees that got a couple gallons of corn syrup last week. I wanted to see if they were feeble and emaciated (I sure don't want to exploit or abuse my little charges!). Well now, they looked strong and healthy. The bees looked clean and smelled good. They are rapidly filling out the boxes. Some look almost swarmy. The thing that really got me though was: EVERY BEE WAS SMILING! It appears to me that a little sugar at the right time, not only prevents starvation, but actually improves their health! I know from long experience that a busy bee is a happy bee, and an idle bee is an ornery bee. Perhaps this says something about how well they feel. If they stay idle for a long time, they get greasy looking, and begin to smell sour. Well, I still could be wrong, according to my observations, so I ran Sefan's ideas past my banker and some of my creditors, and they all thought it better that I continue to use the collective wisdom, until Stefan comes up with more solid proof than his shooting from the hip. I can't say anything bad about the Master Beekeeper program, but one commercial beekeeper, whose expertise I greatly respect, thinks it is a joke. The test of a Master Beekeeper, he says, is to make your living from the bees. So, Dr. Stefan Stangaciu, I challenge you to show me that your ideas can be put into a workable, sustainable, profitable, system of gaining your livelihood from the bees (IN TODAY'S CONDITIONS, not some rosy-colored memories of a bygone era), then you'll get my attention and a lot more respect. Right now, you have offered nothing but opinion, and it comes out 180 degrees from the collective experience of those who make their living from the bees, so it doesn't wash. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:50:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wolfgang_P=F6hlmann?= Subject: Re: Foundation equipment. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Howard I make my foundation myself since about four years. For that I use a selfmade foundation mould. The cost of material is nearly zero: some wood for a frame, some wire for reinforcement, fine sand and cement. Imake 80 -100 foundations per year. The quality is not as excellent as when you buy, but the bees like them. Only if you want to make candles you better buy them. You can see it on my hompage http://home.t-online.de/home/wolfgang.poehlmann/imkerei.htm Unfortunately I have it only in german at the moment. I translated the pages on varroa to english in the last weeks, but not all others. If you think that it is interesting for you please tell me by private mail and I will translate this part in the next time. greetings Wolfgang ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:53:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Foundation equipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Foundation in the UK costs about as much today as it did 20 years ago when I began beekeeping so there is less incentive to make your own. There are more profitable uses for surplus wax. It is not difficult to make your own foundation press at minimal cost if you want to make your own. Ask me for details if you are interested. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:53:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Residential areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tom is right on artificial swarms. If you don't do it for the bees they will do it for themselves. My favourite method is to put the parent colony on top of the artificial swarm separated by a split board until the new queen is mated. They can be run as a 2 queen unit for a while and then re-united with the new queen replacing the old. This method needs the least extra equipment and space. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:54:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I understand that Kashmir Bee Virus is very similar to Acute Paralysis Virus. The latter is widespread and endemic in the UK but was unnoticed and very rarely a problem until Varroa came along. In the presence of varroa the virus is lethal. It is speculated that the virus is injected into the bee on the mouthparts of the mite. In NZ there is no varroa and no problem with KBV which is widespread and endemic. The worry is that when the two are brought together the effects will be similar to APV. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:15:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Barrett Organization: banjobee books Subject: Re: Residential areas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cesar, I live in the Blue Mountains 80 kilometres west of Sydney Australia. About 2 months ago I moved two hives into my front yard. They're well screened on 3 sides by trees so they have a people safe flight path. My neighbour enjoys an evening drink on his front step which is but 15 metres from the bees. One hive is just a swarm with no surplus of honey, the other is in three 8 frame full depth boxes, plenty of honey, more coming in daily. My neighbour complained to me last week of a pungent odour which he believed came from my front yard. It was so overpowering that he and visiting friends found it very unpleasant. He spotted a compost bin only a metre from the hives, so thought it guilty. I explained that it was empty so therefore could not be the cause of his distress. He had already ruled out the cause being a dead cat or possum - he'd sarched and found none. Now to think the heavenly perfume of bees curing their nectar into honey at dusk and into the night could have any association with the smell of the decomposing body of a cat is beyond my belief. I shall have to move the big hive and keep the swarm. Cesar Flores wrote: > > Does anyone have any interesting experiences/stories about "neighbor > relations" while keeping bees in urban areas? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 06:19:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Hutton Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: Early Pollen CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 437 MSGID: 240:244/116 58058f04 REPLY: 240:44/0 ae48e76b PID: FDAPX/w 1.12a UnReg(568) Hi Aaron, Pussy willow, also known as goat willow, therfore Willow= Salix caprea =goat = me born under Capricorn = very obstinate, first name Peter = stone. What a combination, all makes for a good beekeeper, Next subject please? If you wished to breed a good bee, what are the qualities you would look for and which would you endeavour to obtain first?? Second part to question, HOW will you get the co-operation of your fellow beekeepers to partake if you are relying on open mating rather than instrumental insemination?? Best wishes peter.hutton@btinternet.com --- * Origin: Kent Beekeeper Beenet Point (240:244/116) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 06:40:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Hutton Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: Kashmir Bee Virus CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 437 MSGID: 240:244/116 5805ddad REPLY: 240:44/0 cc015c75 PID: FDAPX/w 1.12a UnReg(568) Hello Sid, Firstly I should like to know for a fact whether there is any of six strains of KV in New Zealand? Dr Bailey isolated KV from Apis cerana, it is mentioned in his book!! Later he found some in Apis mellifera bees from Australia. Since then imports from Ossie stopped. The New Zealanders have strict import laws so I do not see why they might have acquired bees with KV unless they did not have either the facility or knowledge to isolate the Virus. The place to go for certain information is right here in the UK, Rothampstead to Dr. Brenda Ball no less, See http://www.res.bbsrc.ac.uk/entnem you might have to search on from there or look at the staff email list and send an email enquiry. There have been reports on this list that KV has been imported into Spain but again rumors and hard facts are not bedfellows. Nick Wallingford must have some knowledge on this subject, what do you say Nick?? Regards from the Garden of England peter.hutton@btinternet.com --- * Origin: Kent Beekeeper Beenet Point (240:244/116) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:12:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance In-Reply-To: <918935930.2111676.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <918935930.2111676.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Stefan Stangaciu writes >* I do not believe that the losses through intensive "industrial" beekeeping >are as you say "RARE"; many official general statistics showed, as I said, >dangerous losses (over 50% in some industrial beekeeping countries); Any commercial beekeeper running happily with that level of losses cannot operate for long. Alledging that commercial beekeepers (why use the emotive term 'industrial' when there is no such thing?), routinely operate with 60% losses is nothing short of an outrageous slur on the competence of beekeepers around the world. Amateurs and professionals alike attempt to ensure the wellbeing of their colonies, and have arrived at the best methods from decades of experience. Statistics are of no use whatsoever here, as they are only as good as the questions asked when gathering them and the agenda of the body compiling them. Beekeepers know what is a good hive and what is not. In any case, why ask me to produce statistics? You made the contentious claim, so the burden of proof is on you. >* I agree that the above losses are not connected ONLY to sugar feeding, but >to several factors; however, sugar feeding may be the last bad "drop", among >many others, don't you think so? I could not disagree more. Feeding is not the 'last nail in the coffin'. It is often a lifesaver and as I said before, properly administered I have NEVER seen it harmful. > >* I believe that having more bees after sugar feeding means NOT necessarily >that these bees are more resistant to various diseases; on the contrary... > > Do you know ANY scientifical study which shows that sugar feeding has >really improved the RESISTANCE towards varroa, tracheal mites, AFB a.s.o.? You are confusing issues here and attributing a claim to me which I did not make. True resistance is genetically derived, and it is obviously nonsense to think that sugar feeding has any impact on this. I do state quite definitely that well fed bees are far better placed to resist the stresses of northern winters and the opportunist complaints that come with them than colonies which are unfed. Feral colonies, unmanaged and unfed, left with all their natural stores, will give a natural measure of the value of your claims. A remarkably high proportion die out in winter to be replenished by fresh swarms each year. >* I'm almost 100% sure that a correct study done on two types of colonies >(sugar fed and non-sugar fed) will show that the sugar - fed ones have lower >resistance towards varroa and/or other diseases. There should be absolutely no difference in this genetically determined factor. However, those colonies with more young bees with better fat deposits should be less vulnerable to the effects of varroa vectored viruses. To me the argument thus slants in favour of the fed bees, but has no effect on true resistance. > It's just an hypothesis which may be interesting to verify in practice >by experts as you are. As I said in a posting some time ago in an earlier exchange. I am NOT an expert. I am NOT a scientist. I have NO beekeeping qualifications. I just try to make a living at this game, based on my experience since age 8 together with my fathers lifetime of experience. Along with some others on this list, I like to have the confidence that I can spot a 'lemon' when I see one. > > > Best wishes to all of you, > >Stefan. > >PS I enjoy very much our discussions, even if sometimes our spirits seems to >go in "flames"... No flames from here. I could direct you to some other groups where we would BOTH be absolutely crucified for having this somewhat sterile debate in the first place. Now, have you read Allen Dicks new posting? Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:58:03 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Realism VS Idealism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the wonderful debate of Natural feed VS unnatural caloric assistance: It has been my experience that a universal law of change and evolution demands some extremes. People with a profit motive are often viewed as greedy and exploitive. Yet science and technological research require huge cash flows for advancement. We live in a cash society, not one of barter and philosophy. So we can not sit back as idealists and judge those that must make the technology advance while at the same time pay the bills, and fund additional research. At the same time those that are, by necessity, caught up in the financial struggle of making the production of bees and bee products a viable industry, will also recognize the need for balance from the other side. This balance may very well come from people who do not make a living at bee production brought to scales of economy. Much as those who would control the unrestricted harvest of timber or wildlife are usually not loggers or hunters. The fact is that we need idealism to prevent a natural resource from being unintentionally destroyed by greed. We need realism if we are to manufacture at a level that will allow the common masses to enjoy the wonderful benefits of honey bees. The one extreme pushes the "industry" of beekeeping to levels of mass production benefiting man in general, and adequately rewarding the beekeeper financially. The other extreme assures that that natural qualities and benefits of the bee will not be lost in massive but impotent production. The vast majority of beekeepers find that they are on the pendulum that swings between both extremes. They love the business that they are in, and have learned much about how to maintain the health of their colonies in order to maintain their family incomes. They also love and appreciate the bees that provide them with health, as well as a living. I think that to resent and to attempt to silence either extreme would be injurious to the honey bee, as a critter, as well as an industry. I, for one, have enjoyed reading the exchange and rhetoric from both sides and will continue to look forward to the posts. I find them witty and well thought out from each perspective. The sarcasm is not lost on me. I know that the sarcasm that is slung about is not meant to be insulting; sarcasm is one of the most useful, thought provoking and entertaining tools that language and debate provides. Keep it up guys. We are in either, both, and neither corner. Just pulling for the bees. LOL Your friend Steve Steve Andison
Alaska Resource Economic Development (ARED)
(907) 790-2111
Fax: 907-790-1929 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:38:15 -0700 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Residential areas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Cesar, Thought I'd send you a personal response to make sure you didn't skip over this BEE-L post - especially since I wrote about our own fine city. Matthew --------------------- If it's a story you're after, and it involves a neighbor - I'm sure the topic of fear & panic will hit home to many beekeepers: After purchasing some downtown property in a rural community I was surprised to learn this town(Castle Rock) was one of the only cities in the state of Colorado with a bee-nuisance ordinance spelled out in it's chapter (here, you can keep bees in downtown Denver!). I found this out by an unfriendly visit from the local humane society. They made me move off all 20 hives until I changed (?) the ordinance (ugh....some of those were 300-400 lbs!). Like many beekeepers, I've always had the opinion that when it comes to bees, go ahead and keep them until someone says you can't. These bees were basically boxed in and had to fly up 10-15' to get out (high trees, embankment & buildings). At the end of last season I helped the city take down a tree (with bees) and had them move the trunk of this tree to the back of my lot - bees & all. My neighbor (car-wash owner) came over to inspect why a tree was placed between our properties and found bees! He became so distraught that he called the police dept, fire dept & humane society ALL on the same night. Since I've helped all of these departments & people with different bee 'problems', they all knew who he was complaining about & no-one would help him in his 'panic' - but they referred the humane society to me as they had an obligation to follow-up on a complaint. After a discussion with the car-wash owner (who's 20-30' behind where I kept the bees) he expliained his reasoning, that he "was worried about the bees getting in his trash and stinging someone (?!)". When I confronted him on his 'speculation', he admitted he had never seen a bee all summer long (even though they lived very close by) and didn't even know I had hives there until he found the tree. Fear does strange things to people - not only the car-wash owner but also of the people who thought of such an ordinance as most of us would prefer not to live in a sterile environment (we need bees in cities too!). Matthew Westall (Castle Rock, CO) - approx 10 miles from Cesar in Larkspur, CO Cesar Flores wrote: > Does anyone have any interesting experiences/stories about "neighbor > relations" while keeping bees in urban areas? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:36:52 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Moriarty Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 12 Feb 1999 to 13 Feb 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I write in support of Nick Wallingford. Hawaii (where some of the objecting parties live) has been a pit-like swill hole of lax and non-existent bee monitoring for decades. At one point Hawaii produced more honey than any State or Territory of the US. In 1948 (I believe) one fellow from North America brought in hives infected with AFB and wiped out the industry. Beekeepers here were disappointed to see him return here in the late 70's, as foreman for one of the large operators who moved into the state, and begin moving large numbers of hives in on other beekeepers to starve them out. Those North Americans are fine citizens indeed. I have seen AFB, EFB, Sac brood, chalk brood and you name it here. There is really not anything to protect Hawaii's bees from in New Zealand, while the opposite is very true... NZ really does have to watch out for Hawaiian bees (EFB particularly) and North American Bees (mites, EFB, Africans). It is only recently that there has been anyone appointed to be responsible for the bee industry in Hawaii at all. I have been to New Zealand (6 times), and have concluded that the whole beekeeping industry is far advanced of the average in Hawaii (with notable exceptions such as Kona Queen) because of the fact that there is an active and organized industry which partners actively with government in control measures etc. I doubt that Hawaii can even produce a definitive list of beekeepers (not that our people aren't trying, they just have no resources or statutory authority except that prohibiting import of live bees, a good measure, given North America's status). I know of Hawaiian operators who used to be (I don't know how they are now) into their hives every 6 months with antibiotics, whether they need it or not. In NZ, it has been illegal to use Antibiotics on bees since 1965 (correct me here if I am wrong Nick). A real bright spot is Kona Queen, which is actively breeding resistance into their lines... an obvious move that American beekeepers have largely ignored through lazyness (the two genes for housecleaning resistance were discovered in the late 40's), largely a bottom line/behavioral problem rather than a technical one. Nick is right... this is blatant market protectionism and is technically ridiculous. But remember, this is the same quarantine branch that prohibits the importation of flightless domestic ducks, Khaki Campbells (Anas Platyrhinchos Domesticus) to protect our native wild Koloa (Anas Platyrhinchos)... and , with a straight face, suggests that I get instead get "Peking ducks" (note- Peking Duck is a Chinese dish). What they are refering to are probably Pekins ducks (the dominant commercial meat breed). Notably the Pekins breed is an Anas Platyrhinchos Domesticus. This is the general level of officials we are dealing with here... there are bright spots, but don't be surprised if this idiocy continues. Aloha, mike moriarty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:08:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Green wrote: > So, Dr. Stefan Stangaciu, I challenge you to show me that your ideas can be >put into a workable, sustainable, profitable, system of gaining your >livelihood from the bees (IN TODAY'S CONDITIONS, not some rosy-colored >memories of a bygone era), then you'll get my attention and a lot more >respect. Right now, you have offered nothing but opinion, and it comes out 180 >degrees from the collective experience of those who make their living from the >bees, so it doesn't wash. Hello dear Dave, There are already several people which are making a very good living from organic beekeeping. They are getting a lot of money (usually double) for bee products obtained from beehives treated not with chemicals, antibiotics, fed with sugar or pollen supplements a.s.o. Two of these items, very well sold are "raw, pure honey" and "medicinal honey". On the other hand, all over the world, the "organic" movement is more and more well appreciated by all customers. Nobody likes to know that even our bees, a symbol of purity and Nature's quintessence, are forced to obey to the chemical industry rules. Countries like Germany, Switzerland where this "organic" movement is really big, have already knowledgeable customers. I believe that all dirty tricks made by SOME (fortunately not many) beekeepers, tricks like honey adulteration with sugar or corn syrup, over-heating to maintain fluidity etc., etc. will be no longer "secrets" for mass media. The honey's contaminants/residues related information will be, sooner or later, free to be known by EVERY customer. Modern future laboratories will offer quickly the full analysis of ANY type of honey. I wonder what will happen then with all those beekeepers which do not care so much about the honey's quality, but mainly about their income? I believe they will go bankrupt IF they will replace not quickly their old methodologies with the new "biological/alternative" ones I may be wrong with the above ideas, but what will happen, with most of the "classical" beekeepers, if I'm not...?! Best wishes, Stefan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:13:16 +0100 Reply-To: Tom Braams Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Braams Subject: Re: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bee Friends, I am following the discussion about feeding and disease resistance with interest. Somehow I get a bit uneasy about the superficial nature-culture debate in it. Is a natural approach always better? Why? Is everything which is natural healthy? Stefan wrote: >* I do not believe that the losses through intensive "industrial" beekeeping >are as you say "RARE"; many official general statistics showed, as I said, >dangerous losses (over 50% in some industrial beekeeping countries); Are you sure this was caused by sugar feeding? I find this kind of argumenting very provocative. As long as there are no scientific experiments in which was established that 50% of the sugar fed colonies died and a substantial higher proportion of the natural fed colonies didn't, I can't take this argument serious. >* I agree that the above losses are not connected ONLY to sugar feeding, but >to several factors; however, sugar feeding may be the last bad "drop", among >many others, don't you think so? No, I understood that there is a diseasy risk (dysentery) when the food contains a lot of impurities, especially in winter food. >* I believe that having more bees after sugar feeding means NOT necessarily >that these bees are more resistant to various diseases; on the contrary... Don't you all think there are other differences between wild colonies and our domestic bees that are more important in explaining differences in resistance? David Green wrote: Well the winter losses of the bee trees (before varroa) ran over 60%, and they didn't have any sugar feeding to blame. The trees are resupplied with swarms each spring from beekeepers. So the wild population was declining before varroa; now, for all practical purposes, wild bees just cannot survive without human help. Murray McGregor wrote: There should be absolutely no difference in this genetically determined factor. However, those colonies with more young bees with better fat deposits should be less vulnerable to the effects of varroa vectored viruses. To me the argument thus slants in favour of the fed bees, but has no effect on true resistance. >* I'm almost 100% sure that a correct study done on two types of colonies >(sugar fed and non-sugar fed) will show that the sugar - fed ones have lower >resistance towards varroa and/or other diseases. > It's just an hypothesis which may be interesting to verify in practice >by experts as you are. It would be very usefull if some other variables were also controlled. In that way you could examine the proportion of explained variance. If sugar vs. honey feeding is an explaining factor, it is very well possible that it explains only a little bit. Other variables could explain a lot more. You have to start with clone-queens to assure that the natural resistance is the same, you have to control the building up of the colonies and several other variables. Very difficult in a field setting. Not easy for a commercial beekeeper (apart from the fact that this is a very time-consuming experiment). Believe me, I am not a promotor of artificial methods. I just don't want to spill the bee with the bath water , as bee keepers say in Holland. ;-) But I don't want to go back tot nature, my tree climbing (to steal the honey) isn't that good any more. ;-) A natural, clean why of beekeeping, yes. Start again and burry all experience gathered with bees, no. all the best to you all! Tom Braams The Netherlands t.braams.psy@daxis.nl ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:56:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mr Glyn Davies Subject: OSR (Canola) ;nectar & pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To informed Bee-liners I would appreciate a world -wide view on these OSR/Canola matters. 1. How important is the honeybee for pollination/increase in yield of oil.? 2. Is there a GM variety which is self pollinating, produces no nectar and therefore can produce significantly more oil.? Many thanks, Glyn Davies, Ashburton, Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:33:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray McGregor wrote: >True resistance is genetically derived, and it is obviously >nonsense to think that sugar feeding has any impact on this. (snip) >>* I'm almost 100% sure that a correct study done on two types of colonies >>(sugar fed and non-sugar fed) will show that the sugar - fed ones have lower >>resistance towards varroa and/or other diseases. > >There should be absolutely no difference in this genetically determined >factor. However, those colonies with more young bees with better fat >deposits should be less vulnerable to the effects of varroa vectored >viruses. To me the argument thus slants in favor of the fed bees, but >has no effect on true resistance. Hello dear Murray, There are many studies, including in humans, which shows that a wrong diet can affect the genetical structure. I hope to be able to give you soon clear references but until then let me give you the general conclusion of only two of them: * pollen supplementation with less than 50% "raw" bee pollen in the mixture increases the risk of birth defects; * the same birth defects comes when a bee colony is fed excessively with refined sugar; in this second case, the birth defects comes to the third generation of bees. So, my friend, it is already a proven fact that excessive refined sugar feeding CAN give genetical problems. Why this genetical disease wasn't so obvious up to now? Probably because sugar feeding is seldom used in an excessive manner. However, the problem is out there and you can never verify exactly if a queen breeder feeds or not excessively his bee colonies with sugar, in order to make sooner more nurse bees to nourish the queens. The most dangerous situation I see here, as a poor un-experienced "outsider", is when a beekeeper has a bee colony with: a) excessive sugar feeding + b) lack of bee bread thus royal jelly; c) lack of propolis. Kind regards, Stefan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:12:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > There are already several people which are making a very good living > from organic beekeeping. I was going to cease in the beating of this quite dead horse, but had to comment on the organic comments. I started out organic. I never had a plum on my plum tree. My apples were wormy, even with traps and all the other organic tricks. I lost half of my bees to dysentary or mites every winter. I talked with a major player in the organic movement and was told that the results I had were consistant with what to expect. If I wanted to be organic, I had to raise what would work, so forget apples unless you accept worms, scale and the like. If you are going to spray with the approved organic sprays, be prepared to do more damage to the environment than if I used several of the chemical pesticides. All this from a knowledgable organic grower. So I shifted. I use pesticides sparingly-IPM- and harvest plums, apples, peaches, cherries and worm free corn in Maine. I use less chemical pesticides than I would organic. I treat my bes with apistan and have not lost a hive to varroa. T Mites are under control with crisco patties. Dynsetary is a thing of the past because I feed with nothing but the White Death, plain sugar, and the bees winter perfectly. I have not lost a hive to dysentary or mites over the past four winters. I wanted to do it organic. It cannot be done unless you are willing to sacrifice quantity and quality. If so, no problem. But I have found that most organic true believers are selective in their beliefs. Stephan uses his bees inappropriately in the practice of Apitherapy. They are probably in man made hives. He might use foundation. All are steps away from natural. He has decided what is natural for him, not the bees. It is the age old problem of man. We look for a simpler age as we drive our car along the super highway on our way to Walmart and the supermarket while listening to a great music from our CD. Bill T- who enjoys the fruits of progress since the lifespan of a typical American at the turn of the last century was in the 40s and now near 80- with foul air, unclean water, pesticides and honey from sugar fed bees. If it keeps getting worse we may live to be 100. Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:35:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Early Pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Peter Hutton wrote >HOW will you get the co-operation of your fellow beekeepers to >partake if you are relying on open mating rather than instrumental >insemination?? When reading 'A Manual of Beekeeping' by E.B. Wedmore, I came across the following paragraphs. Hopefully this may go some way to answering the question. I will try it this year. Wedmore is usually considered reliable. '176. Provided there are potent drones living in the colony from which the mating flight takes place, there is a high probability (some say 95 in 100) that the queen will mate with one of those drones. Never, therefore, let a queen fly for mating from a colony having drones of undesirable parentage. Either destroy all such drones and advanced drone brood before inserting a queen cell, shaking in some recently emerged drones of desirable origin. If this critical matter does not receive attention there is no knowing with what kind of drone the queen will mate, but if it does receive attention, the large majority of queens will be mated as desired. The method is more sure than any attempt to flood your district with selected drones, unless your location is exceptionally isolated from neighbouring apiaries and wild stocks.' Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:55:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Organic beekeeping (was: Sugar and bees wintering) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/14/99 10:09:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, apither@GMB.RO (Stefan Stangaciu) writes: > I wonder what will happen then with all those beekeepers which do not > care so much about the honey's quality, but mainly about their income? I > believe they will go bankrupt IF they will replace not quickly their old > methodologies with the new "biological/alternative" ones That's a pretty serious and insulting charge you are leveling against those of us who make our living from the bees...... You'd better be clear that I CARE VERY MUCH about MY HONEY'S QUALITY! I produce some of the finest honey on earth and I am very proud of it. I am careful to make sure that is is as pure as possible. BUT you are dreaming, if you think perfection is possible. And I must work within the definition of possible. An "organic" label on eastern US honey is a joke, and I believe that is true in most other places as well. My bees gather from thousands of acres, and they have no respect for boundries. Not only is there intense agricultural spraying (and those droplets float a long ways; I've seen herbicide damage to plants that occurred miles from the application), but there are public spray programs for mosquitoes, gypsy moths, medflies, grasshoppers, etc. Perhaps I could get away from the direct effects by moving up into the Blue Ridge Mountains, but then I get the filtering effect of the mountains, taking acids and industrial pollutants from the atmosphere. There is nowhere that is free of contamination. DDT has been found in the tissues of animals in Antactica! There is no way to stop all this spraying. The best I can hope to do is to monitor it and try to make sure that they comply with the label directions to reduce the damage to the bees, by applications at times when bees are not foraging in the area. I have managed to make some applicators pay closer attention, but getting them cited and fined. Fortunately for the honey consumer, at least for insecticides, there is a cleansing mechanism that helps a lot. Since honey is processed internally, and bees who take in insecticide-contaminated nectar die, losing that contribution to the whole, the resulting batch is purified. This effect is not present with pollens, and many batches of pollen are found to be dangerously contaminated. This is a totally different issue than sugar feeding. Sugar feeding is irrelevant here, no matter how the organic folks define it, because pure sugar is simply energy, and feeding sugar does not add any residues, even if a trace should somehow find its way into honey. Sure, I'd be glad to make "organic" honey, if it were possible..... I don't want to consume (or more important for my grandchildren to consume) a cocktail of toxic chemicals, with unknown long-term effects. So I'll work to reduce them where I can. But I cannot change the whole industrialized world. Any eastern US beekeeper (and most of those elsewhere, especially in the industrialized areas of the world) who puts an "organic label on his honey has got a lot of explaining to do to this skeptic. Most likely, he's either a consumate liar with a good marketing technique, or he's badly self-deluded. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:57:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance In-Reply-To: <919006206.1124711.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <919006206.1124711.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Stefan Stangaciu writes > There are many studies, including in humans, which shows that a wrong >diet can affect the genetical structure. How? If I go and eat different food how is it going to alter my genetic structure? Your argument smacks of Lamarckian theory, yet your are an MD. > > I hope to be able to give you soon clear references but until then let >me give you the general conclusion of only two of them: Never mind the references, as these are usually studies conducted under abnormal conditions in order to forcibly produce certain effects and establish at what level they occur. They have little impact in the real world. > >* pollen supplementation with less than 50% "raw" bee pollen in the mixture >increases the risk of birth defects; I do not feed pollen supplement or substitute, but I know that many experienced members of this list do, and would rather do so even if the first generation of spring brood raised on it had a reduced lifespan. they would still live long enough to raise the next generation with proper field gathered pollen. I am sure that even if your claim is true most beekeepers would still like to run the risk of a few defective bees emerging than have brood raising curtailed by pollen dearth. It is not of any great benefit in our area as pollen dearths are not common, but if they were I would certainly do it. > >* the same birth defects comes when a bee colony is fed excessively with >refined sugar; in this second case, the birth defects comes to the third >generation of bees. Why use the term 'excessively'. No one has been talking about excessively, just sensible supplementary pre-winter feeding, and probably a little early spring stimulation before natural nectar sources get going. If you force fed bees on pollen substitute and sugar syrup to the exclusion of all else you would get sub standard bees, but that would only be a lab experiment and no beekeeper in his right mind would confine bees to such a situation. > So, my friend, it is already a proven fact that excessive refined sugar >feeding CAN give genetical problems. > Utter rubbish. Underdevelopment due to poor nutrition is NOT genetic damage. Examples if you wish? Thalidomide victims have normal children. No genetic defect there, just interfered with development. Queens raised in an out of season emergency situation are often undersized due to poor nutrition. Once into a full season they generally get superceded and the new queen is perfectly normal. Again no genetic defect, just suppressed development. Then again perhaps I am wrong. Maybe you do have examples of altered DNA in bees/humans given sugars or soya/yeast proteins. If so watch out for the biggest food scare ever seen on gods earth. > However, the problem is out there and you can never verify exactly if a >queen breeder feeds or not excessively his bee colonies with sugar, in >order to make sooner more nurse bees to nourish the queens. Why again raise the term excessive? Would you rather he did not feed and you then were forced to buy undernourished queens? That is of course assuming that you could get underfed bees to produce them in the first place. > c) lack of propolis. We have many colonies in which you can find little or no propolis. We have others which can at certain times seem if you have dipped them in a glue bucket. This is in the same apiaries at the same time. There is no notable difference in performance, and I know which ones are the easier to work with. > Kind regards, > >Stefan. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:58:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan: The manner in which you make claims bears a very close resemblance to those made by the good Dr who stirred up a hornet's nest about a year ago. Unfortunately, I forget his name - maybe Rodriques ? The subject of his claims was the value of using Food Grade mineral oil as a hive treatment for varroa perhaps, or was it tracheal mites ? If I recall correctly, the dispute was not so much over the views expressed at that time, as they were over the fact that 'scientific claims' were being made without basing these claims on the scientific standards accpeted worldwide by the scientific community. It seems to me that you are skating on the same thin ice with your alleged scientific assertions. Al Needham ............................................................ Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:58:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Valentine Subject: Re: Murray McGregor: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I agree with Murray McGregor, AND: I feel bees need pollen supplement for a jump start on brood rearing in the spring and sugar surup/candy feeding to prevent starvation late winter early spring if they are low on honey stores. The bees will dump the pollen supplement when natural pollen becomes available. From what I've seen any sugar fed to the bees is used regardless of what else is brought in by field bees. One exception, I have seen the bees will dump dry sugar when nectar is available. I just made up sugar patties (Bee Candy) to get the bees over the Feb/Mar hump safely. I know that supplemental sugar feeding "will help them thrive." Without it (sugar), if there's no feed they will die. I don't see how it could BEE simpler. I also treat with TM10 in extender (grease) patties early spring and late fall. Early spring because hives are at their weakest. The late fall because robbing can happen after frost and the nectar flow stops, medicating helps prevent the spread of anything that could be brought in from another neighborhood colony. Also without the mite strips added into the annual formula there may not be any bees in the spring to worry about. Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance, "if it keeps them alive they can build up" when natural food products are available. "They can't build up if their dead." John CT