From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:07 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27243 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11053 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11053@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:00 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9902C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 274896 Lines: 6241 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:22:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul Nicholson wrote: > No doubt there are some substances in some honeys that are not beneficial > to bees also. They have to eliminate or breakdown these substances. Murray McGregor wrote: > this is more than offset by ........ > the absence of gut filling solids in the winter stores. > ........you should try wintering bees on > these 'rich' stores. Honeys such as pine ( which is available throughout > much of the Balkans) and others, and in our own case heather, are all > rich in the items you desire. Under circumstances where there are long > periods without bee flight these types of honey in the stores can have > very serious consequences indeed for the bees welfare. They contain much > which the bees cannot digest and fill the gut too rapidly leading to > defecation inside the hive. Nosema and other complaints spiral > exponentially killing the colony very quickly, which is a lot less > likely to occur with 'clean' stores. In deep winter brood rearing is > either absent or at a minimal level. Primary requirement is only for > energy for heat, and fed stores fulfil this need very well, often better > than honey which can contain much which is not needed at this time. Hi! Our bees are fed sugar syrup for winter stores in early Sept after coming back from the heather moors and ALL traces of heather honey removed. Egg laying has normally stopped by this time and very little or no brood is present. Conventional wisdom has always been that the heather honey, as mentioned above contains much that has to be eliminated by the bees. As the weather is seldom suitable for cleansing flights before the end of March/beginning of April I have never been prepared to risk NOT feeding sugar. It is incidentally, I must admit, good "business" as sugar is considerably cheaper than the selling price of honey -- this is not the prime reason behind feeding sugar however. In this area we exclusively keep A.m.carnica not the Black/Brown bee A.m.mellifera which reputedly is more adapted to take advantage of heather honey. Is the solids content of heather honey (and others) exaggerated/a myth or is conventional wisdom here (presumably based on experience) actually correct? As a footnote I may add that I have experienced problems with heather honey mead, which throws a large amount of thick gummy sediment some time after it has apparently cleared -- the women folk have also noted that making confectionary and cooking generally with heather honey is problematic as it produces quantities of "scum" when heated. If this is the same components of the honey that the bees need to eliminate I can fully understand their need to cleanse despite the weather conditions! Cheers Tony ------------------------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Fxrsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Hxgskolen i Sxr-Trxndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:02:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bobby R Fanning Subject: Cotton Pollination. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for research results or white papers on the subject of "cotton pollination" relative to honeybees. Any input would be appreciated. Bob Fanning k4vb@hiwaay.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:17:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Cotton Pollination. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/99 7:54:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, k4vb@HIWAAY.NET (Bobby R Fanning) writes: > I am looking for research results or white papers on the subject of "cotton > pollination" relative to honeybees. Any input would be appreciated. McGregor pulled together the research up until 1976 in his pollination "Bible," now out of print, but, thanks to Bee Culture and the USDA lab at Tucson, is partily published online at http://www.airoot.com Then I would contact Dr. Steve Buchmann or one of the other scientists at the Tucson lab, where a lot of research has been done. They can supply reprints of articles published by their scientists there, (and a lot of cotton pollination research was done there). The lab's web page is at http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/ I hope to get together a summary of the papers at The Pollination Home Page, but it is awaiting, along with a boxful of other resources, my "free" time. Unfortunately the constraints of making a living don't permit me to get this labor of love together as fast as I'd like. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:34:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Otrembiak Subject: Re: Organic beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like my $.02 to this thread....I consider myself an organic farmer growing vegetables without the use of synthesized fertilizers and pesticides. I have not found a description of "organic honey" in the NOFA (Northeast Organic Farmers Association) certification manual. I think this is because there is no way to control the areas where the bees forage consequently there is no way to determine if they were in area where pesticides have been sprayed.. I Agree with David, we would be hard pressed to find any part of the world untouched by pesticides and pollution that "may" effect our honey. In the meantime I do whatever I can to keep my honey as pure as possible. If anyone can find certification standards for organic honey or has better ideas to ensure the "organic quality" of honey I am eager to learn about it. Steve Steve Otrembiak sotrembi@skidmore.edu DON'T CONFUSE ACTIVITY WITH RESULTS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:22:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Shilliff Subject: Re: sugar feeding etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. This is where we are at with feeding sugar.We have have some nice days recently here in upstate NY USA zone 4,with sun and temps in the 40's(f),with good bee flight.As usual,we make the rounds of the colonies to check for stores etc.This year we had 15hives out of 150 that were light on stores and gave each a 5# bag of sugar.Most yards are accessable only by sled due to the snow cover,and sugar is the lightest/easiest way to go.We will check again in 2-weeks. These hives were light on stores for 1 of the following reasons-warmer early winter weather,improper strain of bees or error in the amount of honey left on for winter.Possibly all of the above.At least these hives will be alive and prospering due to our intervention and not deadouts. On another topic,one of our honey customers said they saw on TV a gardening show where the host extolled the use of feverfew blossoms at the hive entrance for organic mite control. Has anybody had any experience or control with this method? Best regards to all, Nick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:15:29 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Sugar vs Honey for winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the discussion on sugar Vs honey for winter. I've heard all the pros and cons over the years. But I agree with Stefan most. A few years back, in wet western Washington State, I wintered ten colonies on the dark amber honey they produced that year. Another ten colonies only received cane sugar (10 gallons 2:1 sugar/water to fill ten combs). Both groups had ten full capped combs of feed by September 15. In late February the cane fed bees were low on stores so I fed them another five gallons to get them through to late March when the weather broke. So that was 15 gallons of syrup, plus labor (extracting and feeding), to equal 10 combs of dark honey. What was most surprising was the colony condition. The honey fed bees had larger clusters, more brood, and were very visibly more quiet and less nervous, or less stressed, though I'm uncomfortable with that term. I've made the same observations many times in commercial colonies over the years. When you pencil the economics closely I don't think it pays to feed sugar, especially today with all the other negative impacts on our bees. I am aware of some of the research on brood rearing with sugar and corn sugar. Each paper I read limited their measurements to the area of brood raised. I am not aware of any researcher ever measuring larval or brood survivability in relation to the type of feed. I am also not aware of anyone measuring bee lipid content or other nutritional factors after wintering or feeding colonies on sugars Vs honey. Of course in some hives the observed behavior may be influenced by a lack of pollen which was not the case in the hives I personally tested. In some commercial hives here pollen is in short supply in the fall and winter. I've seen lots of hives with 1/2 to one comb of pollen in October. That just is not enough to winter colonies properly in Washington. Bees going from here to California for almond pollination often run out of pollen in December (raising bees almost without pollen in January) and with only a few exceptions, don't have enough pollen until the almonds bloom. That situation results in poor bee nutrition, and ultimately in colony shrinkage. I have seen and heard about several bee management systems that support this opinion. When the weather warms in the spring and bees can fly to get nectar and pollen the syrup feeding doesn't seem to reflect the same un-quiet bee behavior, or its harder to observe. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:00:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Bees, sugar, etc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Is Stefan asserting that genetic inheritance can be altered through nutrition? I thought genes could not be created, modified or destroyed unless you are God or an employee of Monsanto. This debate has produced numerous assertions based on personal experiences from both camps. Neither seems willing or able to see the other's claims as true. Is there anybody out there who is willing and able to conduct unbiassed scientific experiments that will get us nearer to what everybody can agree is the truth? Stefan is right in that the organic movement is growing. People are taking more interest in what they eat (if they have the means to - don't forget that for many people the choice is to eat anything that is going or, more likely, nothing at all). We are producing luxury products for people with pockets and influence to match. We are vulnerable to fashion, hype and potential destruction of our markets through scare stories. The niche market (created and) supplied by Stefan and his fellow organic producers of all bee products sets the standard that all our customers would like to believe is in the pot on their table. It also opens up markets for other products. Do the people who complain at the low price they get for their honey collect and market their wax, propolis, pollen and venom? Have they tried producing "genuine organic" honey for part of their crop and selling it at a price to make a profit? It would be a productive step forward if the interested parties stopped knocking each other and agreed on a series of experiments that could be divided up and conducted and replicated in the various educational establishments that subscribe to this list. Chris Slade (Thinking Matthew 5 (9)) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:21:57 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Sugar vs Honey for winter In-Reply-To: <20574815708770@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... I wintered ten colonies on the dark amber honey they produced that > year. Another ten colonies only received cane sugar (10 gallons 2:1 > sugar/water to fill ten combs). Both groups had ten full capped combs > of feed by September 15. In late February the cane fed bees were low on > stores so I fed them another five gallons to get them through to late > March when the weather broke. So that was 15 gallons of syrup, plus > labor (extracting and feeding), to equal 10 combs of dark honey. Okay. This is an interesting example, precisely because it seems to speak volumes and yet may not really prove anything, unless we are told much more: * Were these colonies of the same stock and similar foraging history to that point? If so, then why did some have honey and some not? If not, then were some Italians and others Carniolan? Were some larger than others, or their constituent bees in a different nutritional state going into the test? Were the two groups in similar states of health? * Why did the ten hives require syrup? Did they have very little honey/syrup at some point over the previous season? Bees that are allowed to run dry -- or nearly dry -- at any point are never the same and simply will not winter well -- regardless of what feeding is done, honey or sugar. * Did the hives on honey have pollen under the honey? Was their pollen supply similar in source and quantity? * Did they have similar *weights* going into winter, or was the 'ten frames' a subjective measure? The thickness of the combs -- and the weight -- can easily be very different, depending on the circumstances under which they are filled, and appear similar. * Were the *combs* in each hive the same condition and did they have a have similar history? I.e. had they been occupied by healthy, productive bees, or had they been in storage or been used as extracting combs? We find that dry combs or extracting super combs are very poor to try to winter bees on in the first year, until they have been occupied by strong bees for at least a season. Every year we make up hives from nucs plus odd combs and bees from the windows of our honey house and feed them up. Invariably they do poorly compared to the bees that have been established a season. They say that wintering begins in the spring and they are right. About that anyhow. In fact such hives accounted for the several I reported in poor condition in my last post. Comment: We have found that starting feeding syrup early in the spring -- before significant protein is available -- simply results in consumption of the feed with no visible change in state of the bees. As I have stated here before, we started feeding some similar bees (about 50 similar hives) in March (25) and some in April (25) as a test one time. We though that the early start might give early buildup. We monitored the bees all season and all we could conclude was that we wasted our feed and our effort with no benefit -- or harm. Later tests with pollen supplement included indicated to us that we *could indeed* get positive results by early feeding, however feed consumption is considerably higher than it would be if we waited, and the main benefit was visibly more vigourous bees. When fed syrup and supplement in late March, the small bees that normally are seen in the early hatches were not apparent. Rather the bees were full size and spunky. We really did not see much difference in populations until a cycle or two later -- when the brood of the artificially fed, more vigourous spring bees hatched and we were forced to split more than normal. FWIW, although many people have managed to get bees through winter by feeding syrup continuously -- including a teacher of beekeeping at a local ag college who should have known better -- it never results in good bees. Syrup only works well -- as does honey -- when fed to healthy bees which have never suffered recent hardship and fed in plenty of time in advance of the dormant period. In the case cited in the opening quote, there may be many reasons that the bees required extra feed in early spring, however being forced to feed under those early spring conditions is expensive and the amount of sugar consumed is much greater than it would be if the stores were already available capped in the comb -- either as honey or, preferably IMO, converted sugar syrup. > What was most surprising was the colony condition. The honey fed bees had > larger clusters, more brood, and were very visibly more quiet and less > nervous, or less stressed, though I'm uncomfortable with that term. I've > made the same observations many times in commercial colonies over the years. > When you pencil the economics closely I don't think it pays to feed sugar, > especially today with all the other negative impacts on our bees. Unfortunately people may be comparing apples and oranges. Oftentimes sugar is fed late to colonies that have been deprived of feed and are consequently stunted. Most people cannot distinguish between bees that have always been well fed, and those that have not. I have recently learned to spot the difference and it is fairly obvious when you try. Bees that are nutritionally run down take generations to recover unless ideal foraging conditions occur and continue for a period of weeks. I'm surprised that Andy has not yet asserted himself on this thread, since this is his theme and he has been my mentor in learning to understand this most essential aspect of beekeeping. My initial attempts at protein supplementation were failures and are documented in the archives. If there is any doubt in your mind as whether protein supplementation can work, simply visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Pollen1.jpg then if you are somewhat convinced go to http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Pollen.htm There are a lot of subtle things about beekeeping and often when people think they are seeing one thing, they are actually seeing something else. I guess one of the most essential things almost no one understands is that it only takes a short time with inadequate feed for the bees to go a long ways backwards and often it takes generations to recover. The population numbers may not decline, but bees without a reserve of honey or sugar syrup will decline in vigour. I have had the bank come through late with money and had to feed when the bees have been down to the last twenty or so pounds of honey in an unusaually dry fall, and I can tell you from bitter experience that no amount of feeding, either honey or syrup will ever bring them back to what they would have been if they had been fed on time. Sugar gets the bum rap in the example quoted. Athough it is likely the saviour rather than the cause of the mess in the first place, it is at the scene of the crime. Guilty by association. The real cause? Often Nature herself. In dearth years, by the time the bees are spit to make up for winter losses, there is no crop. We have had years where the amount of honey shipped in the fall -- and it was 100% honey -- exactly equalled the amount of sugar syrup fed in the spring. In other words there was no surplus that year at all. The other cause is beekeepers robbing the bees too close, and oftentimes it is hard to tell in advance what is too close. There is a school of thought that says that if the bees are deprived of all their stores they will work much harder than if they are always left a little reserve, Poppycock. Nonetheless, it is a judgement call whether to risk it take that last ten pounds of honey and pay the bank or have the bees face certain death when the bank takes over and they remain unfed and unwrapped in a snowbank. > I am aware of some of the research on brood rearing with sugar and corn > sugar. Each paper I read limited their measurements to the area of brood > raised. I am not aware of any researcher ever measuring larval or brood > survivability in relation to the type of feed. I am also not aware of > anyone measuring bee lipid content or other nutritional factors after > wintering or feeding colonies on sugars Vs honey. I think this would be a very worthwhile area of research. I gather that the differences observed in the field have never been obvious enough to make this an urgent subject for investigation. Nonetheless, it is worthwhile to know these things. I know from personal experience that brood tends to be scattered and full of misses in the spring -- until we feed sugar, at which point it becomes solid. I had never realized that this might be due to the inferior nature of the honies in the comb, since that is what the bees are down to consuming by that point. (they eat the sugar first since it generally goes into the centre of the hive and is also nice an liquid compared to the rock-hard honey). Last in first out. Interesting. > Of course in some hives the observed behavior may be influenced by a lack of > pollen which was not the case in the hives I personally tested. In some > commercial hives here pollen is in short supply in the fall and winter. > I've seen lots of hives with 1/2 to one comb of pollen in October. That > just is not enough to winter colonies properly in Washington. Or here either. That is why we have to feed pollen supplement or quit keeping bees here. > Bees going from here to California for almond pollination often run out > of pollen in December (raising bees almost without pollen in January) > and with only a few exceptions, don't have enough pollen until the > almonds bloom. And we have heard here that almond pollen is poor. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:57:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sondra H Schmidt Subject: Cloudy Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have two hives and was fortunate to harvest 60 lbs. of honey last fall and still leave sufficient honey stores for my over-wintering bees. The= supers were capped off before extracting with an electric spinning machin= e. I then heated the honey to 105 degrees and put the honey in jars. I note that the honey, which was so clear when bottled is now turning cloud= y. Does anyone know what I might have done wrong in this first year? Is= there a cure? I am not selling honey, but am giving it to neighbors and= friends. Even so, we don't want to give away less than perfect honey. = Thanks to anyone who might have a though on this. = Sondra = Beesknees@Compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:35:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Hougen-Eitzman Subject: Re: Organic beekeeping MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am also an organic vegetable farmer who keeps bees. I agree that it is impossible to control where bees forage. On our farm we plant a variety of cover crops (e.g., alfalfa, alsike clover, white dutch clover, sweet clover, buckwheat) for the benefit of our soil and also to provide chemical-free forage areas for the bees. However, our farm is surrounded by a sea of conventionally-grown corn and soybeans. All of these acres will receive at least one herbicide treatment during the season. Furthermore, I estimate that approximately 50-75% of these corn/soybean acres around our farm will be planted with transgenic crops (both Bt and herbicide-resistant), so there is a chance that genetically-engineered pollen and nectar will come to my hives (assuming that bees might collect some corn pollen and soybean nectar). I don't grow other livestock besides bees, but my understanding of organic livestock standards is that all livestock must be fed organically-grown feed. So, therefore, to follow this logic, bees (and their products) can never be organic if the bees feed on crops that are not organically-grown. I know of at least one set of standards that give a description for organic honey - OCIA (Organic Crop Improvement Association). You can look at their standards on the web at http://www.ocia.org/docs.html (see section 4.2 in the Certification Standards). I will be attending the March meeting of the Upper Midwest Organic Farming Conference (conference web site is: http://agile.net/UMOFC/). There is one session on organic beekeeping - I'll report back on what I find out. David Hougen-Eitzman Big Woods Farm Nerstrand, MN hougeneitzman@ll.net At 09:34 AM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >I would like my $.02 to this thread....I consider myself an organic farmer >growing vegetables without the use of synthesized fertilizers and >pesticides. > >I have not found a description of "organic honey" in the NOFA (Northeast >Organic Farmers Association) certification manual. I think this is because >there is no way to control the areas where the bees forage consequently >there is no way to determine if they were in area where pesticides have >been sprayed.. I Agree with David, we would be hard pressed to find any >part of the world untouched by pesticides and pollution that "may" effect >our honey. > >In the meantime I do whatever I can to keep my honey as pure as possible. >If anyone can find certification standards for organic honey or has better >ideas to ensure the "organic quality" of honey I am eager to learn about >it. > > Steve > >Steve Otrembiak >sotrembi@skidmore.edu > >DON'T CONFUSE ACTIVITY WITH RESULTS > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:09:59 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dave general Subject: Re: sugar feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Hello All, I've been following the thread with not a little amusement. Just to share the perspective from the tropics, where no wintering has to take place, I do feed my hives with sugar during the dearth or rainy season. >From late May to early December, I feed my bees with about a liter of sugar syrup weekly to tide them over. It doesn't make sense to feed in large quantities as the syrup will just ferment. In my experience (17 years), feeding sufficiently in the dearth season determines the strength of the colonies when the honeyflow starts. We don't usually have flows when the bees literally explode out of the hive to gather the nectar, thus the build-up is more gradual. And if I allow the bees to use the early flow to build up, two months of the season will have passed before the hives are in proper strength. I remain convinced that feeding bees during the dearth and during the winter is the management technique of responsible beekeepers, regardless of whether some beginners question the propriety of such practice. Regards, Dave General Cagayan de Oro City Philippines 8.29N 124.39E ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Daniel D. Dempsey" Subject: Re: Cloudy Honey In-Reply-To: <199902160317.TAA17505@tco1.tco.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:57 PM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >note that the honey, which was so clear when bottled is now turning cloud= >y. > Does anyone know what I might have done wrong in this first year? Is= > >there a cure? I am not selling honey, but am giving it to neighbors and= > >friends. Even so, we don't want to give away less than perfect honey. = > >Thanks to anyone who might have a though on this. = Sondra, I think that your honey is starting to sugar. You did not say what kind of honey that it is. Sone kinds sugar faster than others. Just warm it up to 105 or 110 and it should clear up. It is still good now and even if it sugars. Dan Daniel D. Dempsey P. O. Box 5 Red Bluff,CA 96080-0005 40.15 N 122. 14 W ddempsey@tco.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:10:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Cloudy Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I then heated the honey to 105 degrees and put the honey in jars. I >note that the honey, which was so clear when bottled is now turning cloudy. > Does anyone know what I might have done wrong in this first year? >Is there a cure? It sounds like it is crystallising. The only "cure" is to place the bottles in warm water until they clear, or *gently* microwave them. You haven't done anything wrong; it is a natural occurrence. Ian Watson ian@gardener.com real estate agent, gardener, baritone Beekeeper --> 10 colonies ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:36:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Bees, sugar, etc In-Reply-To: <199902160320.WAA17249@mail.keswick-k12.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:00 PM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >The niche market (created and) supplied by Stefan and his fellow organic >producers of all bee products sets the standard that all our customers would >like to believe is in the pot on their table. It also opens up markets for >other products. Do the people who complain at the low price they get for >their honey collect and market their wax, propolis, pollen and venom? Have >they tried producing "genuine organic" honey for part of their crop and >selling it at a price to make a profit? As a beekeeper who sells his own honey, beeswax etc. I have found the market poor. I have had a few people who were willing to buy a bit of my honey since they felt "local" and "raw" honey had some merit. Howerver, I do not "hype" the virtues of my products beyond taste and food quality. In general if my prices are too much above the local retail stores, I do not sell much. Yet at the same time I have been told that as a result of my getting stings I will be free of cancer! Last year, at my regular job, a older gent and a lady spent a few hours trying to tell me how much better I would feel and how I would not get sick if I would only eat a little royal jelly. The wonders they preached were just beyond belief. Sadly, three weeks later the gent passed away from aggressive lung cancer (and he was not, to any of his coworkers knowledge, a smoker). All of the hope he placed in "natural" cures did him no good. Of course I would like to balance that statement by saying that since he spent the last bit of his life in a modern hospital, modern science failed him as well. >It would be a productive step forward if the interested parties stopped >knocking each other and agreed on a series of experiments that could be >divided up and conducted and replicated in the various educational >establishments that subscribe to this list. The use of "natural" methods can very often be an inexpensive solution to a problem (I only use 100% organic smoker fuel for example :). I just do not like the claims that "if its from nature, it must be good" ( I also wonder when study after study is mentioned, but the reference is never available!) Nature is the enemy. Nature produces the virus, the bacteria, the mites that kill our bees (and us). Nature has brought more species to extinction than man has ever seen or heard of. Our fight is against nature, but if we can get the enemy to give us some quarter every once and a while I am all for taking what I can get. Anyway I will keep putting grapefruit leaves in my smoker just in case it does cause mite drop but I will not insist that it is the one and only true hope for beekeepers the world over! How is that for balance? Al Lipscomb arl@suncoast.org 1275 4932 DFA1 97EB D3A1 903D 7563 2936 A66B 86B3 MCSE AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:55:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Sugar vs Honey for winter Comments: To: jcbach@yvn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/99 3:55:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, jcbach@yvn.com writes: > What was most surprising was the colony condition. The honey fed bees had > larger clusters, more brood, and were very visibly more quiet and less > nervous, or less stressed, though I'm uncomfortable with that term. I've > made the same observations many times in commercial colonies over the years. > When you pencil the economics closely I don't think it pays to feed sugar, > especially today with all the other negative impacts on our bees. How carefully did you match the hives. Were the heavy hives, heavy because they made more to begin with (healthier bees)? Did you test the light ones for tracheal mites/other stress diseases? Did you check the pollen in the light ones for pesticide contamination? Were the light hives allowed to starve, even for a few days? How about their behavior before feeding? I've seen beekeepers (well, okay, I've done it myself) take off supers and NOT check the weight of the brood chamber, because they were planning to return with feed. However, when they return, a week later, a few hives, which happened to have NO honey in the brood chamber, had already starved down. The population may still appear to be strong, but it will not recover very well. This is an entirely different issue than sugar vs. honey. If a hive starves, even briefly, you can give them frames of honey, with the same effect. They are weakened to the point where they just don't recover. Re: pollen and pollen shortages. Okay, most of my personal experience in feeding sugar is in the south, where we have abundant pollen most of the winter, unless we have a spell of extreme weather. It has been my experience, time and time again, that feeding sugar keeps the bees occupied, generates new brood, and works the older and sicker bees out of the loop. While it takes energy to process the sugar, and individual bees may have their life span shortened, the net result is younger, healthier bees -- a stronger hive. I've had less experience in wintering bees in the north, but I have seen the dysentery that results from poor quality honey and lack of flight. It's not a pretty sight. I would certainly rather winter them on sugar than poor honey. Of course they must have pollen, and one must also count the pollen that would have been present in the honey. If they did not store away plentiful, pesticide-clean, goldenrod pollen, they will need a supplement. You can waste a lot of sugar feeding bees that are not worth the feed to begin with, and you can look at them and tell if they are poor stock or starved stock to begin with. Good bees look clean and smell sweet. Poor bees are more nervous, shinier or greasier, and smell slightly sour. You can feed poor bees til kingdom come and reap little reward. Bees with tracheal mites often will not even take feed. You can feed good bees and they will build explosively in the spring. We are more apt to have a pollen shortage in the summer, or very poor quality pollen, or contaminated pollen. I've found that feeding sugar will help little, if there is not plenty of good fresh pollen. But a quart of syrup in the late summer, when good pollen is available again, will do wonders to refresh a hive, and get them ready for fall pollination or goldenrod in October. >I am aware of some of the research on brood rearing with sugar and corn >sugar. Each paper I read limited their measurements to the area of brood >raised. I am not aware of any researcher ever measuring larval or brood >survivability in relation to the type of feed. I am also not aware of >anyone measuring bee lipid content or other nutritional factors after >wintering or feeding colonies on sugars Vs honey. Let me go on the record as being very much in support of good solid research. I base my opinion on my years of experience, and that of others like me. But that doesn't mean it is a closed topic. If someone can establish something certain by good research, rather than shooting from the hip, I'll listen. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:40:29 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bee club Subject: bees on airplanes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was wondering if any of you have taken bees on airplanes. My Father is going back to America for a short while and we were wondering if he could bring package bees to Hong Kong on the airplane. As far as we know there are no restrictions on bringing bees into Hong Kong. Is it legal? Would the bees survive? If anyone has done it before could you please tell us your experience? Justin Knight Age 14 Hong Kong ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:51:01 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: S-A-D and B-A-D Bees (Reprise) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "There is nothing new under the sun". The writer of Ecclesiastes observed this some time back and it seems that his observation applies to this list and the current topics of discussion. What is interesting is IMO, with the exception of my contributions (hehehe) and those of several other serious students of bees on the list, the current quality of debate does not seem to nearly match the earlier contributions on bee nutrition. I attribute this to the fact that as subjects get re-hashed and re-hashed, those with respect for the subject grow weary of repeating themselves and dwindle away. To draw a parallel to our discussion of bee nutrition, provocative emotive posts (trolls), long-winded repititious unsubstantiated professions of 'belief' and syrupy words are a poor substitute for sharing of genuine knowledge on a topic. They are an artificial diet for those of us who look for real experience and real proof before believing, and who, even then, believe only lightly. I observed earlier that Andy had not put in his two cents. On reviewing the logs on the topic, I can see he has very, very little left to say. He said it all, and said it well, here as recently as Thu, 1 Feb 1996 at 05:12:00 GMT. I won't repeat it again here, but you can access it at my page with one click. Simply go to http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ and select "SAD and BAD Bees" Those of you who would actually like to know what has been said before in advance of jumping into what has become a discussion of feeling much more than fact, please seriously consider going to http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm and doing a few simple searches before posting. It will definitely change what you post and definitely make you look a whole lot smarter than you might if you merely assume everyone else is stupid and shoot from the hip. A trip to http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis.htm may take a few hours, but will put a reader on top of many current topics. Tom has an amazing skill at chronicling the changes in beekeeping that are taking place. As for the current discussion, the issue has become clouded in rhetoric and whimsy and imprecise use of words. Just to make it absolutely clear, I think that no beekeeper in his right mind thinks that a good quality, long nectar and honeyflow can ever be entirely replaced by artificial feeding. Having said that, those who actually care about their bees (and themselves) have discovered and proven over and over again that -- in the absence of ideal conditions -- supplementation pays dividends to both the bees and the beekeeper. Natural (whatever that is) nectar and pollen flows are definitely preferable to both parties, and for the beekeeper, generally much cheaper. Sometimes profitable, even! In the spirit of helping encourage people to feed their bees sugar syrup when advantageous to both parties, and in response to an earlier question, I am also putting up a new page of photos of our electric hive feeder at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ Watch my 'What's New' page. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:16:46 -0500 Reply-To: RNE905@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Torrey Subject: Organic Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Fellow Beekeepers - Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners (MOFGA), has regulations governing their definition of "organic honey". No synthetic pesticides for the control of varroa mites is permitted! Beekeepers need to exercise control over their apiary. Recommendations: 1. Locate hives away from non-organic hives by at least 1 mile. 2. Bee yards must be placed at a site where beekeepers can monitor and have control of activities that may affect organic integrity (e.g., isolated from possibility of insecticide drift). 3. Beeyards should be beyond 2 miles of the following rivers in Maine at any point downstream of a paper mill: Penobscot, Androscoggin, Kennebec, St. Croix and St. John. 4. Beeyards should be beyond 1.5 miles of a farm or other location greater than 2 acres in size using prohibited pesticides on a regular basis. This includes forests, fields,golf courses, etc. Numbers 3 and 4 above will probably become requirements in a few years. Apiary Plan: All hives to be certified are to be located on a 7.5 minute topographic map, showing a radius of 1.5 miles from all hives. A separate map for every location during the season, including yards established for pollination. The purpose of the plan is to begin to assess the pesticide use patterns within the normal foraging area of 7 square miles or so. Beginning in 1999, limits may be fixed for some or all pesticides within an apiary plan. For further information contact MOFGA P. O. Box 2176, Augusta, Me. (207) 622-3118. Regards David Torrey 1249 State St. Veazie, Me. 04401-6903 Office: (207) 581-3372 Home: (207) 942-1988 Email: RNE905@Maine.Edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:41:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Bees, sugar, etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Christopher Slade wrote: >Is Stefan asserting that genetic inheritance can be altered through nutrition? >I thought genes could not be created, modified or destroyed unless you are God >or an employee of Monsanto. I am not a genetician but I believe that everything enters into a living being can, ON LONG TERM, change its genetics. Everything in our Universe is interlinked, isn't it, dear Chris? I do not recall where I read, but relative recently some geneticians found that certain foods can prevent the transmission of genetical diseases from parents to the kids. I believe that our bee pollen can be included on this list of such special foods. If a genetical disease can be prevented by nutrition, I assume that it can be also induced. I explained in one of my last messages that many foods can induce different types of cancers. A normal cell to turn into a cancerous cell "needs" to have at least some of its genes disbalanced/affected, inhibated. It is also a well known fact that many types of cancers (initiated by foods like smoked meat etc.) can be transmitted to the children, grand-children and so on through inheritance. Am I wrong in the above assertions? Only a genetician can confirm or infirm that, so I hope that such a specialist exist already in our "List". >Stefan is right in that the organic movement is growing. People are taking >more interest in what they eat (if they have the means to - don't forget that >for many people the choice is to eat anything that is going or, more likely, >nothing at all). We are producing luxury products for people with pockets and >influence to match. We are vulnerable to fashion, hype and potential >destruction of our markets through scare stories. Thanks for the above correct thoughts. >Do the people who complain at the low price they get for >their honey collect and market their wax, propolis, pollen and venom? Have >they tried producing "genuine organic" honey for part of their crop and >selling it at a price to make a profit? In many parts of the world there are many beekeepers which are getting nice profits from "organic honeys" or especially from the other very precious bee products. Again, there is an increasing market on apitherapy related products which waits for most of you! >It would be a productive step forward if the interested parties stopped >knocking each other and agreed on a series of experiments that could be >divided up and conducted and replicated in the various educational >establishments that subscribe to this list. Yes, it is an excellent idea! As far as I am concern, I want to present here my excuses to ALL people which were offended by my last messages. My intention was not to hurt somebody, but to warm up some, maybe, "icy" minds. I must confess also that I made my "homework" and I read some good beekeeping books (like "The Hive and the Honey Bee", 1992). My "aggresivity" towards refined sugar feeding has diminished a bit after I found that in certain conditions our beloved bees preffer sugar to natural honey. However, I'm 100% sure that NEVER, a bee colony will "forage" only floral pollen and refined sugar. Nectar will be always on their GENERAL list of prefferences, because it is written in their genes, isn't it? Their prefference to refined sugar I see it somehow similar with the prefference of our kids to drink "Coca-cola" or to eat in a restaurant like "MacDonalds". It will last for awhile, but no forever... If will last "forever" big problems can arrive: diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, heart infarctus, strokes, caries, spasmophilia, osteoporosis, parasitoses, cancers etc., etc., etc. Yes, I know, the bees have other physiological models. I agree but they have the same type of cells as we do. The only difference is related to their cellular different functionality. ANY living cell on Earth needs a proper diet. Proper diet means quality and quantity. Quality means also VARIABILITY. Refined sugar is only a very POOR FOOD, from THIS point of view, even if it gives relative good energy. We love our bees isn't it, so why shall we keep them for such long times under-nourished properly. Yes, I know, you will say: "We feed our bees only with small amounts of sugar and only for short periods of time". Is this correct always? Many of you told us that you feed sugar to your bees in Fall, in Winter AND in Spring. This goes to a possible total of 6-8 months!!! Isn't it a bit too much my friends? Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:54:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Oilseed Rape Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What happens to the HMF levels in your rape honey when it is heated? Has anybody tested and measured? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:38:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Residential areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/13/99 6:16:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, banjobee@PNC.COM.AU writes: > Now to think the heavenly perfume of bees > curing their nectar into honey at dusk and into the night could have > any association with the smell of the decomposing body of a cat is beyond > my belief. I shall have to move the big hive and keep the > swarm. Would be worth a looksee for foulbrood were I to smell something like rotting meat near my hives. Goldenrod and aster bloom is pungent and makes everyone worry around here every autumn. 35 days until spring here so in Oz it must be 35 days til autumn? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:58:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Sugar feeding and bee disease resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit All I know about sugar feeding is a strong colony resists many problems and sugar is the means to accomplish this via stimulative feeding. Many problems exist in every hive which we will never see evidence of in a strong colony. Weak colonies get sick get robbed get dead. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:57:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "thiele.consult" Subject: Re: Organic beekeeping (was: Sugar and bees wintering) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT (Stefan Stangaciu) writes: > > > I wonder what will happen then with all those beekeepers which do not > > care so much about the honey's quality, but mainly about their income? I > > believe they will go bankrupt IF they will replace not quickly their old > > methodologies with the new "biological/alternative" ones well he is completely right! David Green: > Sure, I'd be glad to make "organic" honey, if it were possible..... I don't want to bother beekeepers who are convinced about their method. But telling organic beekeeping is not possible means ignoring the hard work of hundrets of organic beekeepers certified by our company. Organic beekeeping doesn't mean just freedom of residuals in the honey but a natural way of keeping bees. Keeping bees in a natural way is not so difficult. regars Michael Thiele ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:22:52 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 13 Feb 1999 to 14 Feb 1999 In-Reply-To: <919054940.102080.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <919054940.102080.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Automatic digest processor writes >I would appreciate a world -wide view on these OSR/Canola matters. > >1. How important is the honeybee for pollination/increase in yield of oil.? Not having OSR within about 70 miles of my apiary, I may be mistaken but I thought ALL osr was self/wind pollinated. The bees increase the yield slightly but are not required. The main benefit is for the beekeeper, surely. -- Tom S ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:32:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Johnson Subject: bees and ducks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a hobbiest beekeeper with 7 hives located about 100 feet from a pond where they get their water. I have often thought about getting a couple of ducks for the pond. But I have hesitated because I wasn't sure if they would eat the bees as they came to water. Can anybody tell me if ducks would eat bees? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:21:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/99 7:53:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, anthony@IET.HIST.NO (Anthony N Morgan) writes: > Is the solids content of heather honey (and others) exaggerated/a myth > or is conventional wisdom here (presumably based on experience) actually > correct? Shame! You are wintering bees on sugar instead of the "all-natural goodness of Heather Honey! Horrors! This is not a technical problem as the good Doctor Stefan has clearly pointed out. It is a MORAL problem. You'd better change your ways, right away. Don't bother to test the question with a few hives. You've got to winter ALL of them on heather -- no further questions asked!!! (Your resultant bankruptcy should not interfere with Dr. Stefan's logic. The self-appointed expert already knows it all.) ( --Kinda reminds me of the definition of the modern American liberal, who KNOWS things are getting better, and resolutely plows ahead despite mounting evidence to the contrary.....) It's interesting to note that the guys who do bees for a living, who cumulatively represent hundreds of years of experience readily unite on these points: 1. Sugar/corn syrup is better than starvation. 2. Sugar/corn syrup is a superior winter food than honey with a high solids content. 3. No evidence of damage has ever been documented, or even observed, in feeding sugar/corn syrup to bees. Sugar is simply stored up energy. It is NOT nutrition, but energy is also needed, especially in winter. 4. Of course the bees need nutrition as well, a great deal more when rearing brood. This is readily supplied by pollen, which may be naturally sufficient, or may need supplementation, according to the forage available in the area. Dr. Stefan claims to know beekeepers who make their living from "organic" honey. If they are genuine, my hat's off to them. But I doubt there are many places in eastern Europe, sufficiently uncontaminated to truly produce organic honey. Many areas were in the plume of radioactive dust from Chernoble (sp?); aw shucks, there goes the "organic" label right there, if the producer is honest. Anyone from the Americas who claims to be producing organic honey would have to lead a very lonely life, way out in the wilderness. Perhaps it would be possible in areas of northern Canada/Alaska, the higher Smokies/Blue Ridge/Adirondaks (where bees would starve, except for brief flows), some areas of the Rockies/Andes, the US/Mexican/Chilean deserts, and some rainforest areas, that are relatively untouched by modern technology. These areas are shrinking. I am convinced that you cannot produce organic honey in any of the modern populated areas of the world. This is simply a marketing technique, which may add "value" to honey, but certainly violates my own ethics. I'm gonna' keep my honey just as clean and pure as is possible. I'll use pesticides as sparingly as possible, but not to the point of going bankrupt by losing my bees. I'll do my best to bring to justice those pesticide applicators who misuse insecticides on crops, forests or swamps in this area, but I'm not going to try to stop them from spraying altogether, just to get them to obey the label. I will not dis-honestly label my honey as organic, because I know the fields and forests around here are sometimes contaminated with pesticides, and always contaminated at a low level with industrial chemicals, acid rain, etc. And I will feed sugar/corn syrup proudly, because it is the mark of a good beekeeper to keep his bees healthy and strong. The bees are my livestock. I want to open a hive in the spring and have bees "flowing" out and over the edges of the box. I want them to look clean and smell sweet. I want powerful hives, raring to go, whether to make honey, or to make cukes, melons, apples, peaches, or squash. I know that a little sugar/corn syrup at the right time will keep my bees FROM being feeble and sickly, despite the good doctor. I know that my growers will not be willing to pay me, if I bring sorry hives to pollinate their crops. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:57:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "thiele.consult" Subject: Re: organic beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT This is a good question: I should like to know why you are of the > opinion that honeybees are getting weaker and weaker? > because you can see it when you look at honeybees where artificial breeding methods (artificial insemination, artificial queenbreeding, using the larvae of worker bees) are the standard. The honeybee is not strong enough anymore to compete with diseases. You can't recon in a period of 10 or 20 years, but in a period of about 100 years. > I have neither seen nor heard any evidence to that effect. I know lots of beekeepers loosing many hives per year (in Germany 1997 the whole loss was estimated with at least with 60%. > To me this sounds like claiming a cure for a non existent complaint. In this point you are not right, you just need to open your eyes! regard Michael Thiele ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:25:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Nicholson Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. In-Reply-To: <199902131303.FAA21098@alto1.altonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 +0100 2/13/99, Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > > How do you know, for sure, that they have "enough of these enzymes >in their cells"? I bought a 3 pound package of bees in late December to start a hive in time for the spring flow. I put them in a super with some drawn comb and started feeding sugar syrup. The hive responded wonderfully and has now filled two 10 inch supers with brood and bees. They are ready for our spring flow which is underway now. > How do you quantify this, with mathematically precision in order to >be 100% sure of success? They are sure doing well now. It certainly doesn't appear that the sugar did them any harm. When these bees were introduced it took a couple of weeks before I observed that they were bringing in pollen. Perhaps this was the time it took them to locate pollen and nectar sources in their new neighborhood. In the mean time their energy needs were filled very well by the sugar syrup. > It is already known by everybody that Any substance processing in >the bee body needs energy, enzymes, vitamins, nutrients and so on. > Why shall we not leave them enough PROPER, well selected honey for >wintering without overwhelming them with extra-metabolical charges? That's what I normally do, but with El Nino the spring time harvest was outstanding. I got 300 lbs from one hive alone. The I lost a queen and the hive was raided. By the time I caught it the population was low and the stores were gone. I don't see sugar as a matter of course, but as something to feed when honey is unavailable for whatever reason. >>Bee's don't grow after they emerge, so their protein needs are low. > > > Are you sure? The nurse bees which feeds the queen and all larvae needs >a lot of proteins to synthesize royal jelly and brood food. The "guardians" >especially needs proteins to synthesize bee venom and so on... But the nurse bee protein is not for them it's for the larvae. Since a worker bee stings only once, it shouldn't have to synthesize bee venom but once. >>They can't raise larvae on honey alone any more than they can raise larvae >>on sugar alone. > > Did you experiment this on long term and on several colonies as is >the case with most of the industrial beekeepers which loose up to 60% of >their colonies during wintering? No. The success of my package bees fed initially on syrup has been very good. >>I just started a hive in December with no stores, feeding only refined >>sugar. The bees are able to forage some for pollen now and are now raising >>lots of brood. Without the refined sugar, these bee's would have died. > > > Your bees can survive as well with good, natural honey as they did >in the last 50 millions years. I'm sure, but I can buy sugar in 12 kg bags very cheaply. I had no honey to feed them and neither did they as it was a new hive from package bees. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:29:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. Comments: cc: B.Jakel@t-online.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Susan Nielsen wrote: > >Neither is having the top of the hive opened every >now and then, permitting smoke and light to flood in. Did anybody from the "List" used myrtle oil (Nelkenoel in German) instead of the classical smoking which may deteriorate the honey's quality? This essential oil is: * bee repellent; * it is used in human medicine as a natural anti-parasitary and antiseptic product. In Germany I saw a very ingenious device which replace completely the old classical smoker. More details you can get from Mr. Bernhard Jakel: B.Jakel@t-online.de Please write him in German. If necessary I can help. Cordially, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eric Bullard Subject: Wolfgang's Gadget Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wolfgang, I am very interested in the gadgets on your page for making foundation and the other piece of equipment on your page, the one that looks like a drafting table with roller. What's it for? The transportation device is self explanitory. If you do translate them into English (as you hinted you might in your Saturday post), please inform me. I love makeing gadgets. I think many of us would be interested. Thanks in advance, Eric Bullard Asheville, NC , USA bullare@nationwide.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:36:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: organic beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-02-16 10:30:37 EST, Thiele.Consult@T-ONLINE.DE (thiele.consult) writes: <<> opinion that honeybees are getting weaker and weaker? > because you can see it when you look at honeybees where artificial breeding methods (artificial insemination, artificial queenbreeding, using the larvae of worker bees) are the standard. >> I am in partial agreement with you. The honeybees are getting weaker, but this is happening in all of earth's life, and the breeding efforts have actually helped to counteract this. We have increasing levels of ultraviolet, and there is more and more ozone, industrial pollutants, dust, acid rain, and pesticides in our environment. This cannot help but weaken immune systems for all living creatures. I share the concern of the organic folks with the toxic residues that are found in our food and the bees' food. If you go through the government paperwork for pesticide registrations, you find that there are legally allowable levels of most chemicals that are used in crop production. The studies of all of these (to establish permissible levels) are short term, and do not take into account the synergistic effect of long term exposure to multiple toxins. Many of the old fruit growers who used lead arsenate had health problems from it. Some had obvious lumps and festering sores on their bodies. The materials used now are probably not as toxic as lead arsenate, but who knows what the effect will be of 40-50 years of exposure? I used a lot of chemicals in my younger years working in orchards and other farming. I was always impressed by the fact that when I handled chemicals, no matter how well I suited up, used face masks or resirators, etc, I would have a bitter taste in my mouth. Somehow, some of it got through. I use pesticides, but I'll bet I'm one of the most careful users around. It makes me shudder when I see illiterate workers using toxic materials and cannot even read the labels. So I hear you organic folks loud and clear, when you are talking toxic residues. I wish I knew of ways to stop using these chemicals. Unfortunately I am only one person, with limited influence on others, and frankly, I cannot even see how I can get along entirely without using some pesticides. I don't want to share my living quarters with fleas, roaches and ants (they can be quite detrimental to my health, too), and I hate to see my dog suffer from fleas and other parasites. Likewise, my bees will die if I do not treat for varroa. When tracheal mites came in, we had awesome losses. But some survived, and we bred back from the survivors. I only treated for tracheal mites one year, and quickly dropped this as a concern. I do give my bees a little help in the late winter with vegetable oil, but that's about it as far as goes for tracheal mites. I don't even check for tracheal mites anymore; I just don't breed from bees that are obviously weak. But varroa was a different matter. I knew quite a few beekeepers who were adamant that they would NEVER introduce a pesticide into the bees. Every last one has either changed their tune, or they are EX-beekeepers. We did not have ANY bees at all, that could survive this onslaught, and serve as breeders. We hope for the possibilities of the Russian bees that were imported to introduce varroa resistance. The afro beetle may be a similar story. We may have NO resistance. Maybe we'll have to import the best afro bees the Brazillians have been able to breed...... The question of good breeding, and of sugar feeding is a totally different issue, and personally I think they are irrelevant to the organic beekeeping controversy. These are philosophical concerns, and technology and experience point in the opposite direction. We have a religious sect here in Hemingway that is big on sustainable agriculture. I support the concept, but I am amused at their approach. They have a "model" or demonstration plot where they grow vegetables. They are some of the sorriest I've ever seen. The cucumbers are knotty, the melons are small and white-seeded, without any flavor, etc. I've told them on several occasions that they need bees; that they are not getting adequate pollination. They won't listen. They are so dominated by their philosophical concepts that common sense has no place in their reasoning. I can point to the evidence and show them exactly what is happening, but it is to no avail. They think they are going to "attract" bees that simply aren't there...... Ah, common sense. It's amazing how uncommon it is! Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:45:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: organic beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-02-16 10:30:37 EST, Thiele.Consult@T-ONLINE.DE (thiele.consult) writes: << I know lots of beekeepers loosing many hives per year (in Germany 1997 the whole loss was estimated with at least with 60%. >> When there are winter losses like this, someone needs to remove pollen from the comb of the deadouts and lab check for pesticide residues. Bees will gather contaminated pollen in the summer, and perhaps suffer only minor losses, because the pollen is diluted with other fresh pollen. The stored pollen is covered by fresh pollen and/or honey through the fall. But, in mid-winter, when no fresh pollen is available, the bees uncover the contaminated pollen and they are especially vulnerable. I have taken frames of comb with pollen from winter deadouts and used them when I put a 5 frame nuc into a 10 frame hive. Immediately a nice queen, who was laying like a gangbuster in the nuc, begins to look poor. The brood becomes spotty. It's not that the queen is failing, but that the brood is being fed contaminated pollen. Brood is dying and being removed. I believe this is a much more common winter loss problem that beekeepers realize; no one is testing, because it is not suspected. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:03:02 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan Stangaciu wrote: Did anybody from the "List" used myrtle oil (Nelkenoel in German) > instead of the classical smoking which may deteriorate the honey's quality? > > This essential oil is: > > * bee repellent; This is interesting. I have never heard of using myrtle oil, which you say is an essential oil. How is it applied - with a fume board? How well does it repel bees? Could this be used in clearing a super of bees for harvesting honey, much as we do with butyric anhydride now? It would be wonderful if some less noxious substitute could be used in place of butyric anhydride. However, on the subject if smoking bees: There are right ways and wrong ways to do this. In my experience with Italian bees, a light puff at the entrance 30 seconds before lifting the cover, and then a single light puff under the inner cover is usually all that is necessary for working a hive. It is hard for me to get this across to new helpers in the yard, who often think it is necessary to make it look like the whole place is afire! If the colony won't settle down with a gentle puff it is time to requeen it. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:52:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. Just a short note on some of the comments of genetics being changed or affected by what the bees eat. I think that what was really meant by this statement is that the way the genes are expressed--the expression of the genes--can be affected by diet. The genetics are not changed. The DNA is not changed, but how the genes express themselves can change depending on the dietary inputs. I think this is what Dr. Stefan was meaning, and it is a logically valid point. Better diets and nutrition and all animals and plants are better able to resist diseases and stresses IMHO. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:10:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. In-Reply-To: <16573232872916@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Stefan wrote: > Did anybody from the "List" used myrtle oil (Nelkenoel in German) > instead of the classical smoking which may deteriorate the honey's > quality? > This essential oil is: > * bee repellent; > * it is used in human medicine as a natural anti-parasitary and antiseptic > product. Who can guarantie that any of the following subsances isn't harmfull to bees? Who will bring following substaces we don't know anything about into the beehive? (see: http://probe.nal.usda.gov:8300/cgi-bin/table-maker?db=phytochemdb&defi nition+file=chems-in-taxon&arg1=Myrtus+communis ) Phytochemicals of Myrtus communis: "1,8-CINEOLE" "Plant" 135 2065 "2-BUTANOL" "Plant" "2-BUTANONE" "Plant" "2-METHYL-BUT-3-EN-2-OL" "Plant" 200 710 "2-METHYL-PROPANOL" "Plant" 2 6 "2-METHYL-PROPYL-2-METHYL-PROPIONATE" "Plant" 2 6 "2-METHYLBUTANAL" "Plant" 2 6 "2-METHYLBUTYL-2-METHYLBUTYRATE" "Plant" 2 6 "2-METHYLFURAN" "Plant" "3,6-DIGALLOYLGLUCOSE" "Plant" "5-METHYL-3-HEXANONE" "Plant" "ACETIC-ACID" "Plant" 0 1 "ACETONE" "Plant" "ALCOHOLS" "Plant" 667 1000 "ALDEHYDES" "Plant" 30 45 "ALPHA-HUMULENE" "Plant" 3 4 "ALPHA-MUUROLENE" "Plant" "ALPHA-P-DIMETHYL-STYRENE" "Plant" 0 1 "ALPHA-PINENE" "Plant" 242 1420 "ALPHA-SELINENE" "Plant" 0 1 "ALPHA-TERPINEOL" "Plant" 58 88 "ALPHA-TERPINYL-ACETATE" "Plant" 58 88 "AR-CURCUMENE" "Plant" 4 6 "BETA-BISABOLENE" "Plant" 0 1 "BETA-ELEMENE" "Plant" 3 4 "BETA-PINENE" "Plant" 2 8 "BETA-SELINENE" "Plant" 0 1 "BORNEOL" "Plant" "BORNYL-ACETATE" "Plant" 12 18 "BUTYL-2-METHYLBUTYRATE" "Plant" 0 1 "CALACORENE" "Plant" "CALAMENENE" "Plant" 1 2 "CAMPHENE" "Plant" 8 30 "CAMPHOR" "Plant" 12 18 "CARVACROL" "Plant" 2 3 "CARVONE" "Plant" 8 12 "CARYOPHYLLENE" "Plant" 3 4 "CARYOPHYLLENE-OXIDE" "Plant" 2 3 "CIS-MYRTENYL-ACETATE" "Plant" 8 12 "CITRIC-ACID" "Fruit" "COPAENE" "Plant" 2 8 "D-LIMONENE" "Plant" "D-MYRTENOL" "Plant" "DELTA-3-CARENE" "Plant" "DELTA-CADINENE" "Plant" 8 12 "DIPENTENE" "Plant" "ELLAGIC-ACID" "Plant" "EO" "Plant" 1667 5900 "FURFURAL" "Plant" 0 1 "GALLIC-ACID" "Plant" "GAMMA-TERPINENE" "Plant" 185 278 "GERANIOL" "Plant" 1 2 "GERANYL-2-METHYLBUTYRATE" "Plant" 4 6 "GERANYL-2-METHYLPROPIONATE" "Plant" 4 6 "GERANYL-ACETATE" "Plant" 8 12 "HEXANAL" "Plant" "ISOBORNEOL" "Plant" "KAEMPFEROL-GLYCOSIDE" "Plant" "L-MYRTENOL" "Plant" "LIMONENE" "Plant" 185 585 "LINALOOL" "Plant" 18 505 "LINALYL-ACETATE" "Plant" 18 28 "LINOLEIC-ACID" "Seed" "MALIC-ACID" "Fruit" "METHYL-CHAVICOL" "Plant" 58 88 "METHYL-EUGENOL" "Plant" 8 12 "MYRCENE" "Plant" 2 6 "MYRICETIN" "Plant" "MYRICITRIN" "Plant" "MYRISTIC-ACID" "Seed" "MYRTENAL" "Plant" 4 6 "MYRTENOL" "Plant" 3 4 "MYRTENOLS" "Plant" 334 500 "MYRTENYL-2-METHYL-BUTYRATE" "Plant" 1 2 "MYRTENYL-2-METHYL-PROPIONATE" "Plant" 8 12 "MYRTENYL-ACETATE" "Plant" 175 262 "MYRTUCUMMULONE-A" "Plant" "NEROL" "Plant" "NERYL-ACETATE" "Plant" "OLEIC-ACID" "Seed" "P-CYMENE" "Plant" 30 106 "PALMITIC-ACID" "Seed" "PENTADECANE" "Plant" 1 2 "QUERCETIN-GLYCOSIDES" "Plant" "RESIN" "Plant" "SUGAR" "Plant" "TANNIN" "Plant" 140000 "TERPINEN-4-OL" "Plant" 3 4 "TERPINOLENE" "Plant" 0 1 "TOLUENE" "Plant" 200 710 "TRANS-ALLOOCIMENE" "Plant" 2 6 "TRANS-CARVYL-ACETATE" "Plant" 0 1 "VERBENONE" "Plant" 0 1 \vov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:41:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Otrembiak Subject: Re: Organic beekeeping (was: Sugar and bees wintering) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I don't want to bother beekeepers who are convinced about their method. >But telling organic beekeeping is not possible means ignoring the hard work of >hundrets of organic beekeepers certified by our company. >Organic beekeeping doesn't mean just freedom of residuals in the honey but a >natural way of keeping bees. Keeping bees in a natural way is not so difficult. > >regars > >Michael Thiele Michael .....would you share your company's certification criteria for organic beekeeping .....the more informed I am the better it will be for my bees. Steve Steve Otrembiak sotrembi@skidmore.edu DON'T CONFUSE ACTIVITY WITH RESULTS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:01:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Whew! -A Gentle Clip from the Alberta Clipper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit With all the flowers wide open, and temperatures in the 80's last week, I was really nervous about the cold front that moved into here (South Carolina) over the weekend. A hard freeze can do a lot of damage when buds are as tender as they are now. Well I feel like we got by this one okay. It was not as cold as predicted, and the cold was very brief. We were about 28 this morning. But it is now 70 (at 2:30 pm), and the nectar is shaking out of the frames. So there obviously wasn't much damage. The bees are building rapidly and starting to look real nice. They are averaging four to six frames of sealed brood. I'm starting to really pour the corn syrup to them. Pollen is coming in great quantity. As long as the weather holds and we don't get freeze damage, I expect the bees will continue to build. Maybe Dr. Stefan would like to come visit, and see first hand, the "damage" that sugar does? I tell you, I get high, watching spring bees do their thing! (Eat yore hearts out, Yankees!) Now, will there be another "Clipper?" Probably. Well, gotta' go. I'm going to move some bees this evening (been too wet to get to them where they are, and they are predicting rain this weekend), and I gotta' fix a tail light first...... Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:22:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Nicholson Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. In-Reply-To: <199902161811.KAA23191@alto1.altonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:52 -0600 2/16/99, Musashi wrote: >Just a short note on some of the comments of genetics being changed or >affected >by what the bees eat. I think that what was really meant by this statement is >that the way the genes are expressed--the expression of the genes--can be >affected by diet. The genetics are not changed. The DNA is not changed, but >how the genes express themselves can change depending on the dietary inputs. >I think this is what Dr. Stefan was meaning, and it is a logically valid >point. >Better diets and nutrition and all animals and plants are better able to >resist >diseases and stresses IMHO. EXACTLY! The ball back in the realist's court. If feeding sugar builds a population of big healthy bees then that's great. No need to wory about any genetic damage from sugar and other such groundless supposition. The bottom line in this case is the health and welfare of the bee's and plenty of people have shared their observations of healthy bees given a jump start or saved from starvation with late winter sugar feeding. It is certainly true that dead bees that starve have their genetic material expressed in a form that is different than living healthy bees. On the contrary, we have very little credible evidence to support the sugar is bad theory. Rather than stand on an nature is good, man is bad soapbox spouting mindless mantras, let's see some credible evidence about the negatives of sugar feeding. Paul "Who once knew a natural food store owner that believed when one's diet was really good, one could coat one's feces in carob sauce and (directly) recycle them." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Ibero-Latin Am. Congress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings! Ahh..the goodness of honey,whether it's labeled raw/organic..whatever! Taking a few tablesppons of MY best honey got me through during my misfortunate web page deletion.. Ok..now for the good stuff..check out Dr. Sanfords article about: Sixth Ibero-Latin American Congress and Twelfth Mexican Beekeeping Semina= r Meets in M=E9rida, Yucat=E1n, M=E9xico by Dr. Tom Sanford Extension Apicu= lturist University of Florida. Dr. Sanford's article is loaded with links..hope I got them all! My web site still needs jpgs and gifs..I can live with it for now. http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee Herb Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee "All my life, I always wanted to be somebody. Now I see that I should have been more specific." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:26:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Becky S Boehm Subject: teminator seed-bt corn Hello, As a new addition to this list server I have found its informative discussions very interesting. I have two question areas , 1. Has anyone read any literature or had personal experience with their bees with heavy use of bt corn pollen,(IE) hives in close proximity to farmland growing monoculture bt corn? Have you seen any signs of involvement with the larva in the hives? Can the bt properties act through the pollen and the silk flour? Is this a non problem? 2. Montsanto has released for testing the terminator seed lines of some plants> I have not been able to find out which plant lines are being tested, only rumers of rice, wheat, and corn. Any help out there? Has any information been published on how this gene splicing will affect the food chain, pollen, energy of the food or how our bodies or the bees bodies will react when feeding upon a genetically altered foodstuff? Can the terminator gene be spread to other plants of the same or other species(total sterilization of the seed crop in agriculture in a couple growing seasons)? any input will be appricated thanks Al Boehm Columbus N.C. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:22:59 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead In-Reply-To: <199902161330.XAA07746@iccu5.ipswich.gil.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Justin Knight wrote > My Father is going back to America for a short while and we were > wondering if he could bring package bees to Hong Kong on the airplane. = As > far as we know there are no restrictions on bringing bees into Hong Kon= g. > > Is it legal? You would have to check with your Hong Kong Authorities to see if it is = legal. I know people in Australia who have sent queen bees to Hong Kong.= However, the Authorites in Hong Kong required a health certificate sign= ed by our Australian Government Officials. I doubt that this has changed= and you may need to have a health certificate signed by the American Aut= horities. > Would the bees survive? If the packages are prepared professionally, they will survive the trip. = It is not something that you can do if you have no experience. > If anyone has done it before could you please tell us your experience? Firstly, you will need to check which airlines will carry package bees. = Some airlines will not carry package bees because people in the past hav= e not been professional enough in the preparation of the packages and the= y have leaked bees. Some airlines have staff that are also not up to spe= ed in handling packages. We have one beekeeper in Australia who flys with= the pallets of packages to their last point of transhipping to make sure= they are handled correctly. He relies on the receiver to supervise the = unloading at the destination. The airlines require that the packages are double wrapped in a material = to stop any bees from getting out. It is easy to wrap a pallet that cont= ains say 440 packages but if you are sending a few, then it requires a = lot of extra work to meet the airline requirements. I can vouch for this= as we have sent small numbers to several destinations. Because of the = work involved, we do not do these small numbers any more. If you are going ship packages back to Hong Kong, please be very careful.= We have a limited number of airlines that will carry our live bees and = an accident will make that airline nervous about carrying live bees. We = do not want any more airlines withdrawing their services. Have you considered the alternatives to bringing in packages? I assume = you already have some hives as you would need equipment to put the packag= es into. Why not split them, and bring in some queen bees? Your father = could easily obtain some queens whilst in America and they would be easy = to ship back to Hong Kong. You may need a health certificate. Just make= sure they put the queens in the pressurised cargo holds and not in the = unpressurised cargo holds. Bees are not allowed to be carried as persona= l luggage unless you have made prior arrangements with the airlines. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:40:09 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: Kashmir bee virus In-Reply-To: <99Feb13.062240hwt.49792(10)@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, T & M Weatherhead wrote [among other things]: > Let me put some facts to the list. > > Hawaii claims that they do not have KBV but I am informed that there has = > been no disease surveys done in Hawaii and that they have, in the viruses= > , sacbrood but they do not know what else. Hawaii stopped Australia from= > transhipping live bees through Hawaii because of viruses about 1994 whic= > h, by co-incidence, was the same time that Hawaii gained access to Canada= > for queen bees. The above "facts" are a bit less than completely accurate. First, Hawaii's commercial beekeepers and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture, which has responsibility for apiary inspections, have never claimed that Hawaii is free from Kashmir bee virus. Kashmir virus has never been found in Hawaii because no comprehensive survey has been made to detect it. At present, sacbrood is the only honey bee virus known to occur in Hawaii. Second, the proximate reason for the U.S. Department of Agriculture's decision to halt Australian bee transshipments through Hawaii in 1993 was not because of the bee viruses known to occur in Australia, but because of the sloppy way in which many of the Australian bee shipments of earlier years had been prepared, allowing for the escape of bees at Honolulu International Airport on a number of occasions. Lastly, Hawaii's queen breeders gained access once again to the Canadian market in 1995, after agreeing to perform, in 1993 and 1994, unreasonably exhaustive surveys for parasitic mites (100% of colonies sampled for tracheal mite, 15% sampled for varroa). Hawaii has been closed to honey bee imports (including those from the continental U.S.) since 1985, and mite surveys have been made twice yearly ever since. Parasitic bee mites have not been found in Hawaii. ************************************************************************* Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814, U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 FAX: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) "Bugs are not going to inherit the earth. They own it now. So we might as well make peace with the landlord."--T. Eisner (1989) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:29:56 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Janko Bozic Subject: honeydew and dysentery MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Most of the discussions in last days are arguing about honey or sugar for wintering. Those who pointed out, that honey is bad for winter, mentioned possible high mineral content in honey. Such high mineral content is present in honey when bees collect honeydew (stated also by Murray McGregor). Too high mineral level is one possible cause of dysentery in the late winter or early spring. The second reason is high level of some oligosaharides in honeydew honey. One of such is MELIZITOSE which can not be digested by bees or its digestion is incomparable with digestion of saharose. When bees suddenly eat higher amounts of such honey, melizitose can not be absorbed from the intestine into the blood and it has too bee defecated. Such bees could also lose some water, since melizitose drag some water into the intestine from the hemolymph. Such bees get dysentery and they can be easily infected by Nosema or other intestinal parasites or microorganisms. Bees are well adopted to saharose presence in food. There is a lot of scientific data on that. Digestion is usually not a problem. Honey could be very good for over wintering, but it depends on source. More the two hundred years ago and also until middle of this century slovene beekeepers were lucky to have 1/3 of fields covered with buckwheat, which offered great pasture in late summer and early fall. Bees build up a lot of brood, beekeeper could extract over 10 kg of honey per colony and still left enough in the hive for wintering. This time is over. Beekeepers have to feed bees and they are using sugar not only because it is cheaper but also safer due to possible problems caused by honeydew honey. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:49:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Frankenstein Food - Reconstructing Nature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I listened with a sense of horror to The BBC Today Program this morning when the subject of Genetic Modification of food crops was discussed at length. What really made me sit up and listen was the comment, that the fields of such crops will contain the crops only - no animals, no birds, no insects. And of course no bees. It would now appear that by 'clever' use of technology that the crops will contain insect repellants thus exit the bees. I am now minded to ask the following question. In the age when the dollar or euro or whatever currency, is adored where you live, why should any of this precious commodity called money be invested in breeding varroa resistant bees, when the Monsantos of this world have decreed from their hallowed boardrooms that bees will shortly be superfluous to requirements?. The debate in the UK is now hotting up. I do not know what stage it has reached in the USA and other countries. It would probably be most naive of me to suggest that anything can be done while the debate is in progress to influence matters. Perhaps the die has already been cast. If so God help us all. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:45:12 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Kashmir bee virus In-Reply-To: <199902170043.KAA22848@iccu5.ipswich.gil.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Culliney wrote > Second, the proximate reason for the U.S. Department of Agriculture's > decision to halt Australian bee transshipments through Hawaii in 1993 = was > not because of the bee viruses known to occur in Australia, but because= of > the sloppy way in which many of the Australian bee shipments of earlier > years had been prepared, allowing for the escape of bees at Honolulu > International Airport on a number of occasions. This is very interesting as we have always been told it was because of = the viruses in Australia and New Zealand that transhipping was stopped. = New Zealand has since gained transhipping rights. For the record, our package bee shippers in Australia claimed that the = reason the bees escaped in Honolulu was because of the rough handling in = Honolulu. In another post, I wrote that one package bee shipper in Austr= alia now travels with the packages to their last transhipping point to = supervise the transhipping. This was as a direct result of the incidence= s in Hawaii. I would imagine that Tom will claim the other way and we = will have to agree to disagree. >Parasitic bee mites have not been found in Hawaii. I am unaware of anyone who is claiming that Hawaii has mites. Certainly = not me. These surveys will become common practise in those countries tha= t do not have mites as a condition of WTO rules. An impost we will have = to put up with. I hope that Hawaii does not get mites. We in Australia do not want them = either. That is why we have strict quarantine import protocols, airport = and postal surveillance and a port surveillance program. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:34:45 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Odds on Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All After a while away I come back to a debate on propolis. The odds: Coffee extract has over 800 easily detectable compounds within it than can be expected to have biological activity. Of these only a handful are well understood and their activities have been characterised. When you damage a tree you trigger it's defenses against attact - ie it produces sap and resins -the resins contain stuff to kill intruders usually bacteria, but also insects and possibly higher animals. We have many things in common with insects, including the fact that most insect poisons kill us too, and most things that cause birth defects in insects do in us to. Plants produce poisons and things that cause birth defects (teratogenic compounds) as a defence so that something that is silly enough to eat a poisonous plant will at least produce offspring that may be brighter or alternatively dead. If a beehive can forage anywhere withing 6 kilometers of a point, say my back yard in urban Grahamstown, it means the bees could concievably be collecting some sort of resin of anywhere over a 1000 species of plants (I live in a biolgically rich area). If these are all half as creative as coffee, with say only 400 uncharacterised compounds in them, that gives us 400 000 possible biologically active compounds, many of which may be bad for us. In short - I would only put propolis on my skin, as a topical, and would never eat it unless I was sure where they were collecting the stuff. I would stick to eating things nature wanted me to eat, rather than stuff it produced to kill things that tried to eat it. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:31:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. Comments: cc: tvf@umich.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Fischer wrote: > This is interesting. I have never heard of using myrtle oil, which you say >is an essential oil. How is it applied - with a fume board? How well does >it repel bees? Could this be used in clearing a super of bees for harvesting >honey, much as we do with butyric anhydride now? It would be wonderful if >some less noxious substitute could be used in place of butyric anhydride. I will send to ALL interested people, from this "List", as soon as possible, a description of the methodology of using myrtle oil instead of the classical smoker, and a general description of the device which can be later ordered directly in Germany. Because I will be not able to contact you via Internet for about 8-9 days after February 19, please send me as soon as possible your requests of info on this issue at my private e-mail address: apither@gmb.ro >However, on the subject if smoking bees: There are right ways and wrong ways >to do this. In my experience with Italian bees, a light puff at the entrance >30 seconds before lifting the cover, and then a single light puff under the >inner cover is usually all that is necessary for working a hive. It is hard >for me to get this across to new helpers in the yard, who often think it is >necessary to make it look like the whole place is afire! If the colony won't >settle down with a gentle puff it is time to requeen it. > >Ted Fischer >Dexter, Michigan USA. Yes, your other comments are also interesting and correct. For honey quality contests (especially if microscopical tests are done) you might use the myrtle oil method. Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:45:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Let's raise the caliber to "Informed Discussion"! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Michael Thiele bases >> the opinion that honeybees are getting weaker and weaker? upon > artificial breeding methods (artificial insemination, artificial queen > breeding, using the larvae of worker bees) .... This kind of generalization and mis information has really degraded this list the last week or so. One need look no further than Sue Cobey's New World Carniolan breeding program at Ohio State to debunk a claim that AI (Sue prefers II (instrumental insemination)) leads to weaker bees. POPPYCOCK! This "It ain't natural so it must be bad" thread has gone too far. Read Taber's _Breeding_Super_Bees_ or take Sue Cobey's Queen Rearing class followed up by her II Class, go see her bees, spend some time with some good competent queen breeders, anything but clutter up this list with such garbage! This list is titled: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Nowhere between those quotes are the words "opinions", "unsubstantiated rumors" or "I do not recall where I read"!!! Please folks, keep in mind "Informed Discussion" when you are making submissions to BEE-L. Aaron Morris - thinking opinions are not facts! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Re: 60% loss??? - organic beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Michael Thiele said=20 >I know lots of beekeepers loosing many hives per year (in Germany 1997 = the whole >loss was estimated with at least with 60%. >>>>>> In 1997 estimated loss of 60% - what about the other 9 years this = decade? Were there any other circumstances which contributed to this = loss? Are they still losing such a high percentage? I cannot believe = that any business can afford an annual 60% loss in production capitol! = Would there be any profit? =20 Tim Rich=20 =00=00 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:01:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Spiekhout Subject: Re: wild bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have had my first request to remove bees from a building. They are in an old house. The owner said that they have been there for years and if I wanted them, I could have them. My question is, if they have been there for years( 5 or more), how did they survive? Richard ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 05:53:43 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: What Kind of Bee? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just got the package for registration from Apimondia '99. It states boldly -- in beautiful colour -- on the cover, "You're Invited to Apimondia '99 in Vancouver Canada" The glossy folder features an obviously dead and damaged insect prominently positioned on on a red maple leaf. In all fairness, the brochure is very well done and reflects a tremendous amount of effert and planning and forshadows a very well run and exciting event, butI wonder what the organizers thought when they were presented with the finished artwork. AND, I wonder, what kind of insect is this? I *think* it was intended to be a honey bee. See the scan at 'What's New' on http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ FWIW, the bee inside is definitely a honey bee. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: honeydew and dysentery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janko, Some of my hive kills were from honeydew. My hives are right by a pine forest and I was suprised to learn they collect honeydew from pines. I also learned it ferments in the comb. In the spring, it is runny and shakes easily out of the combs. Altogether bad stuff for overwintering in cold climates. Bill Truesdell BAth, ME Janko Bozic wrote: > > Most of the discussions in last days are arguing about honey or sugar > for wintering. Those who pointed out, that honey is bad for winter, > mentioned possible high mineral content in honey. Such high mineral > content is present in honey when bees collect honeydew (stated also by > Murray McGregor). Too high mineral level is one possible cause of > dysentery in the late winter or early spring. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:13:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bruce W. Clark" Organization: No Name Farm of MainE in the foot hills of the New Vineyard Mountains Subject: Re: bees and ducks In-Reply-To: <199902161513.KAA23769@groucho.ctel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I keep ducks in my pond with no problem with the bees using it also. You= might go to www.onelist.com for various serv lists dealing with ducks under subject = Animals sub-subject Birds. Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:32:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Nature is the enemy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Nature is the enemy. Nature produces the virus, the bacteria, the mites >that kill our bees (and us). Nature has brought more species to extinction >than man has ever seen or heard of. Our fight is against nature, but if we >can get the enemy to give us some quarter every once and a while I am all >for taking what I can get. Al, you say "Nature is the enemy" ? Nature is nature and it certainly is not the enemy ! Were it not for nature, you for one would not exist ! The viruses, the mites, the bacteria, etc., are all nature's natural controls. They would most likely "not have gotten to the present out of control state" if man were not constantly messing around with this and with that - and subsequently throwing all nature out of balance. You also need to remember that, because life depends on other forms of life to live. I'd like you to consider Al, which form of life is responsible for the most massive everlasting irreversible destruction on this lovely planet - the mites or us humans ? I don't see any mites putting their trash in our local town dump that threatens our water supply! I merely am submittinmg that the mites occupy their place in the scheme of things and have gotten out of hand in the first place most likely because man ships stuff all over the planet and the mites hitch along for the ride. One of the things that man moves around are beehives. Whatever is in the hive then goes along for the ride and finds new territory within to operate. Is this nature or man ? Those bits of life that couldn't make it, that you blame on nature for running into extinction, are simply examples of genetics that didn't work in the environment in which that bit life was living. Since we insist on mucking about with everything in sight, we have created situations in which some things run wild and out of control because we have been messing about with the natural controls somewhere along the line. For example, rabbits were let loose in Australia to control something ( I cannot recall, but perhaps one of our Aussie List members can remind us) and now they are a total pest with people having to run about in the back forty and shoot the buggers before these cute little critters, popular at Easter, make the continent inhospitable to man. I am not picking on our Aussie friends, as I am sure we have plenty of good examples here in the USA. Bunnies just popped into my head. So who is kidding who here - nature is our enemy ? Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:00:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olda Vancata wrote: >Who can guarantie that any of the following subsances isn't harmfull >to bees? Who will bring following substaces we don't know anything >about into the beehive? > >(see: http://probe.nal.usda.gov:8300/cgi-bin/table-maker?db=phytochemdb&defi >nition+file=chems-in-taxon&arg1=Myrtus+communis ) > > >Phytochemicals of Myrtus communis: > >"1,8-CINEOLE" "Plant" 135 2065 >"2-BUTANOL" "Plant" >"2-BUTANONE" "Plant" >"2-METHYL-BUT-3-EN-2-OL" "Plant" 200 710 Hi all, Isn't it wonderful this Bee-L? We can get so fast a lot of excellent information!! Yes, your point, dear friend, is very good. What you are requesting is correctly to be done. It will take probably 10-15 years until the classical "chemical related labs" (no offense!) will approve it, and probably several million dollars. Not to complicate this issue, just for a new sight of this problematic, has anybody from FDA tested on humans what happens with somebody which uses raw propolis or tincture, or bee bread, royal jelly from bee hives treated with Apistan and other chemical varroacids...? From the scientifical point of view, you are right. Myrtle oil can be dangerous to the bees. So can be also rose oil, mint oil, pine oil, lavender oil and so on... So, let's block any organic "movement" and continue to use happily Apistan et co. which brings slowly but sure varroa resistance to several (bio)chemical "weapons"... Let's continue to use the classical smokers which brings free radicals in our honey, free radicals which raises the risc to make cancer in our customers etc., etc. Friendly and not ironically as you may think, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:30:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Sugar and bees wintering. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Layne Westover wrote: >Just a short note on some of the comments of genetics being changed or affected >by what the bees eat. I think that what was really meant by this statement is >that the way the genes are expressed--the expression of the genes--can be >affected by diet. The genetics are not changed. The DNA is not changed, but >how the genes express themselves can change depending on the dietary inputs. >I think this is what Dr. Stefan was meaning, and it is a logically valid point. >Better diets and nutrition and all animals and plants are better able to resist >diseases and stresses IMHO. > >Layne Westover >College Station, Texas Hi all, I repeat that I am not a specialist in genetics, not even a good MD (a good MD will be not insulted in Internet, isn't it?). What Layne is saying above is correct. Yes, that I was intending to say related to the IMMEDIATE effects of a wrong diet. However, my belief is that on long term (several generations), as it happens in humans, the genes themselves will change and will transmit better the negative traits... This "negative" inheritance may be manifested to the future generations through: a) a shorter general life span; b) a tendency to metabolical diseases; c) a possible tendency towards anatomical malformations WHEN favorable factors occurs simultaneously; these factors can be, IMHO, over smoking, pesticides over the physiological possibilities to neutralize them, excessive sugar feeding, certain vegetal oncogenes etc, UV light etc., etc. Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:57:10 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Seppo Korpela Organization: Agricultural Research Centre of Finland Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. In-Reply-To: <01J7TJLBP8AKAELJKS@mtt.fi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Did anybody from the "List" used myrtle oil (Nelkenoel in German) > instead of the classical smoking which may deteriorate the honey's quality? How come are you writing that "nelkenoel" is myrtle oil? Although related, these are different oils: nelkenoel (clove oil) originates from Szygium aromaticum and myrtle oil from Myrtus communis. You can study various spice plants and their names in different languages at: http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/index.html There is an article on using a device for evaporating "nelkenoel" in Deutsches Bienen Journal 5 (1997): 361. The manufacturer is given as: KUNESA Scherer GmbH &Co KG Trierer Str. 40 66700 Weiskirchen Fax (06876) 70619 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:57:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: wild bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/99 8:14:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, RASpiek@AOL.COM writes: > I have had my first request to remove bees from a building. There is not a lot of time between the inactivity of a colony in winter and swarm season. Perhaps you have found a colony that has not been exposed to mites or collapsed from them. However the odds also favor a colony which died and was reinhabited by a swarm in springtime. If you have ever seen a swarm take to a new home you know you could miss it's occurrence in the space of a coffee break. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:24:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Nature is the enemy In-Reply-To: <14243451576576@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >Nature is the enemy. Nature produces the virus, the bacteria, the mites > >that kill our bees (and us). Nature has brought more species to extinction > >than man has ever seen or heard of. Our fight is against nature, but if we > >can get the enemy to give us some quarter every once and a while I am all > >for taking what I can get. > Al, you say "Nature is the enemy" ? Nature is nature and it > certainly is not the enemy ! Were it not for nature, you for one > would not exist ! The viruses, the mites, the bacteria, etc., are > all nature's natural controls. They would most likely "not have > gotten to the present out of control state" if man were not > constantly messing around with this and with that - and subsequently > throwing all nature out of balance. You also need to remember that, > because life depends on other forms of life to live. Is not disease the rule of existence? There is not a lily pad floating on the river but has been riddled by insects. Almost every shrub and tree has its gall, oftentimes esteemed its chief ornament and hardly to be distinguished from the fruit. If misery loves company, misery has company enough. Now, at midsummer, find me a perfect leaf or fruit. Henry David Thoreau (1817-62), U.S. philosopher, author, naturalist. Journals (1906), entry for 1 Sept. 1851. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:24:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. In-Reply-To: <14251571876580@quicknet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Stefan; > >Who can guarantie that any of the following subsances isn't harmfull > >to bees? Who will bring following substaces we don't know anything > >about into the beehive? > >Phytochemicals of Myrtus communis: > >"1,8-CINEOLE > >"2-BUTANOL > >"2-BUTANONE > >"2-METHYL-BUT-3-EN-2-OL > From the scientifical point of view, you are right. Myrtle oil can > be dangerous to the bees. So can be also rose oil, mint oil, pine > oil, lavender oil and so on... > So, let's block any organic "movement" and continue to use happily > Apistan et co. which brings slowly but sure varroa resistance to > several (bio)chemical "weapons"... DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT! We were talking about smoke and smokers NOT Apistan! > Let's continue to use the classical smokers which brings free > radicals in our honey, free radicals which raises the risc to make > cancer in our customers etc., etc. Using smoke is 'natural'. Reaction on smoke is 'writen in the genes' due to milions of year and forest fires. Bees are storing the honey in the stomach which have a calming effect. I can't see any reason to change a smoker which use bee's natural reaction developed under milions of year against a mixture of chemicals we know nothing about (at least 3 components as I could see are causing cancer) which is only 'chasing' bees away, because they probably have reason to 'run for live'. Withouth be calmed. If the 'organic movement' means that uneducated and ignorant people will dictate how to treat bees because it 'sounds good' in the ears of other ingnorant and uneducated people, but when analysed is more harmfull for bees, beekeeping and/or people - in that case this sort of 'organic movement' must be stopped. New methods must bring progress forward. Not stepping back to dark ages there you promote schamans and praying. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:20:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Re Kashmir bee virus/tektran thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture Agricultural Research Service Updated: 1998-12-18 SEROLOGICAL AND MOLECULAR EVIDENCE FOR KASHMIR BEE VIRUS TRANSMISSION BY THE PARASITIC MITE, 'VARROA' JACOBSONI Author(s): HUNG AKEY C PENG CHRISTINE Y SHIMANUKI HACHIRO Interpretive Summary: Serological and molecular methods were used to detect the presence of Kashmir bee virus (KBV) in a transmission experiment. Although KBV was found only in one of the 36 'Varroa'-infested bees tested, this virus was found in 'Varroa' mites and the healthy bees after being inoculated with 'Varroa'. Molecular analysis showed that in the nucleotide sequences of the KBV from the mite-infested bee, 'Varroa' and the inoculated bees were almost identical. This study provides a more definitive evidence that 'Varroa' mites transmit Kashmir bee virus from diseased bees to healthy bees. This information will greatly facilitate our research in developing strategies for beekeepers to control viral diseases in honey bees. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MOLECULAR STUDIES IN THREE STAINS OF KASHMIR BEE VIRUS Author(s): HUNG AKEY C SHIMANUKI HACHIRO Interpretive Summary: At least 16 viruses have been isolated from honey bees. Due to their association with the parasitic mite 'Varroa' jacobsoni, honey bee viruses (acute paralysis virus and Kashmir bee virus in particular) are increasingly of interest to both bee researchers and beekeepers. Most honey bee viruses are morphologically indistinguishable by electron microscope. We used molecular methods to study strains of Kashmir bee virus from Australia, Canada, and the U.S. There was a 97.4% nucleotide sequence similarity between Canadian and U.S. strains and a 81.2% similarity between the Australian strain and the two North American strains. These three KBV strains could be further differentiated by differences in the cleavage sites of two restriction enzymes. This information will greatly facilitate our research in the detection of honey bee viruses and in developing strategies for beekeepers to control viral diseases in honey bees and to determine their economic impact on U.S. beekeeping industry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ THE ROLE OF VIRUSES IN BEE PARASITIC MITE SYNDROME Author(s): HUNG AKEY C SHIMANUKI HACHIRO KNOX DAVID A Interpretive Summary: Bee parasitic mite syndrome (BPMS)is the term proposed for the condition that results in high mortality in U. S. honey bee colonies infested by parasitic mites. The possible causes of BPMS have not been identified. Honey bee colony losses due to the infestation of the parasitic mite, ' Varroa' jacobsoni in Europe has been associated with acute paralysis virus (APV) and other honey bee viruses. With the spread of 'Varroa' to the U. S. and the report of APV and Kashmir bee virus (KBV) in this country, it is possible that APV and KBV may be involved in BPMS. However, our study showed that the majority (62%) of dead adult bees collected from two colonies with BPMS did not contain virus. Therefore, viral infection is not the sole contributing factor in BPMS. This information is important in understanding the etiology of honey bee diseases and will help scientists to design strategies for the U. S. beekeepers to control honey bee diseases. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture National Agricultural Library Technology Transfer Information Center URL of this page: http://www.nalusda.gov/ttic/cgi-bin/tektran-absV3.pl For comments and questions, contact ttic@nalusda.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:43:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: varroa:vrulence&tolerance/tektran thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit posted for cross-reference to previous threads/discussion... TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture Agricultural Research Service Updated: 1998-12-18 DNA EVIDENCE OF THE ORIGIN OF 'VARROA' JACOBSONI OUDEMANS IN THE AMERICAS Author(s): DE GUZMAN LILIA I RINDERER THOMAS E STELZER JOHN A Interpretive Summary: 'Varroa' jacobsoni was first detected in the United States in 1987 and thought to be of South American origin based on mite morphology. Since then tremendous honey bee colony mortality has been reported nationwide despite efforts of controlling these parasites. High colony losses were also recorded in Europe. In contrast, no colony mortality was reported in South America even without treatment. Using RAPD analysis, we established that mites from the United States were genetically the same as those mites from eastern Russia and Europe, and not South American mites. This observation suggests that 'varroa' common in the United States are not from South America but most likely from eastern Russia via Europe. These genetic differences may correlate with the varied levels of virulence of 'varroa' mites on their bee hosts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ EVALUATION ON THE TOLERANCE OF SELECTED STOCKS OF APIS MELLIFERA L. TO 'VARROA' JACOBSONI OUDEMANS Author(s): DE GUZMAN LILIA I RINDERER THOMAS E DELATTE GARY T MACCHIAVELLI R E Interpretive Summary: Using field trials, the relative resistance or tolerance of four honey bee stocks to 'Varroa' jacobsoni was investigated. A commercial stock of honey bees from Louisiana was found to be less tolerant to 'Varroa' infestation than the other stocks. Environment was discovered to be a critical factor in the rate at which levels of parasitism increased. The genotype of mites was also implicated in the determination of levels of virulence. Taken together, the results indicate that the genotypes of both the honey bees and the mites and the environment are critical in determining the degree of injury caused by 'Varroa' jacobsoni parasitism. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ IDENTIFICATION AND COMPARISON OF 'VARROA' SPECIES INFESTING HONEY BEES Author(s): DE GUZMAN LILIA I RINDERER THOMAS E Interpretive Summary: The three known species of 'Varroa' mites ('Varroa' jacobsoni, V. rindereri and V. underwoodi) infesting honey bees are rapidly expanding in distribution and host range. These three species are very similar but can be separated by several morphological characters. V. jacobsoni has been the most studiedVarroa species because of its harmful effects on infested honey bees. Recently, three genotypes of V. jacobsoni were established. The Russian genotype is the most widely distributed. It is present in Russia, Asia, and much of Europe and North America. The Japanese type is found in Japan, Brazil and Puerto Rico. Mixed infestations of these two genotypes were also observed in the U.S. and Canada. The PNG type is found only in Asia. Reports of virulence correlate with the presence of these mite genotypes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSCEPTIBILITY OF AFRICANIZED HONEY BEES FROM SOUTHERN TEXAS TO 'VARROA' JACOBSONI INFESTATION Author(s): DE GUZMAN LILIA I RINDERER THOMAS E COLLINS ANITA M LANCASTER V Interpretive Summary: Africanized honey bee (AHB) has been feared for its impact on the beekeeping industry, pollination and as a public threat. AHB are now established in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California. In South America, these bees are reported to be more resistant to the infestation of 'Varroa' jacobsoni than the European honey bees (EHB). In our bioassay conducted in south Texas, we also observed a trend that AHB have some degree of resistance to mite infestation but this degree of resistance may not be as strong as previously reported. Our data suggest that the survival of AHB colonies in the United States may be affected by 'varroa' parasitism and thus, may influence AHB range and abundance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CHANGES IN THE GENETICS OF A POPULATION OF FERAL HONEY BEES (APIS MELLIFERA L.) IN S. ARIZONA AFTER THE IMPACT OF TRACHAEL MITES (ACARAPIS WOODI) 'VARROA' MITES ('VARROA' JACOBSONI) AND AFRICANIZATION Author(s): LOPER GERALD M FEWELL JENNIFER SMITH D R SHEPPARD W S SCHIFF N Interpretive Summary: When honey bee colonies swarm, they often move into nest sites, which in S. Arizona are most often in rock cavities. We began a study of genetic changes in a specific population of feral bees in 1988. This paper documents the change of genetics of this population during a period (1992-96) when the tracheal mites (1991-present), 'Varroa' mites (1993-present) and Africanized bees (1995-present) moved into this population. During the first years of the mite infestations, 95% of the colonies died. The population size is rebounding (59 colonies as of June 1997), but the proportion of AHB is still increasing, is genetically unstable, and not a recommended source of honey bee genes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A MORPHOLOGICAL AND MITOCHONDRIAL ASSESSMENT OF APIS MELLIFERA FROM PALERMO ITALY Author(s): SINACORI ANGELA RINDERER THOMAS E LANCASTER VICKI SHEPPARD WALTER S Interpretive Summary: Morphological and mitochondrial characterizations of the honey bees from western Sicily and southeastern Italy. are presented. The Sicilian honey bees continue to be a distinct subspecies that could be preserved for future breeding programs. The south Italian honey bees have distinct morphological and mitochondrial traits. Their characterization is important because they are considered by some to be resistant to 'varroa' mites. Future work on this requires that the ecotype be described. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture National Agricultural Library Technology Transfer Information Center URL of this page: http://www.nalusda.gov/ttic/cgi-bin/tektran-absV3.pl For comments and questions, contact ttic@nalusda.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:59:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Re: alternative mite treatments/tektran thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture Agricultural Research Service Updated: 1998-12-18 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- SOME VOLATILE PLANT OILS AS POTENTIAL CONTROL AGENTS FOR 'VARROA' MITES (ACARI: VARROIDAE) IN HONEY BEE COLONIES (HYMENOPTERA: APIDAE) Author(s): SAMMATARO DIANA HOFFMAN GLORIA D NEEDHAM G WARDELL G Interpretive Summary: Essential; plant oils were tested for their ability to kill 'Varroa' mites, a parasite of honey bees. The most effective miticides were origanum, clove, thymol mix, and bay oils. Tests of the oils in colonies revealed that their effectiveness is not as long-lived as Apistan which is the current treatment for 'Varroa'. Further study is needed to determine formulations and release rates that will improve the effectiveness of essential oils in honey bee colonies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A GEL FORMULATION OF FORMIC ACID FOR THE CONTROL OF PARASITIC MITES OF HONEY BEES Author(s): FELDLAUFER MARK F PETTIS JEFFERY S KOCHANSKY JAN P SHIMANUKI HACHIRO Interpretive Summary: Honey bee colonies in the United States and Europe are threatened by two parasitic mites. In Europe, one of these mites shows resistance to the only compound registered for use in the U. S. We have developed a gel formulation of formic acid and a delivery system, which we refer to as the Beltsville formic acid (BFA) gel packet, which is safer than liquid formic acid, and requires fewer applications. It is effective in controlling both parasitic mites of honey bees. BFA gel packets should be of interest to commercial and hobbyist beekeepers, State Apiary inspectors, individuals involved in extension, as well as growers that depend upon honey bees for pollination. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DEVELOPMENT OF A GEL FORMULATION OF FORMIC ACID FOR THE CONTROL OF PARASITIC MITES OF HONEY BEES Author(s): KOCHANSKY JAN P SHIMANUKI HACHIRO Interpretive Summary: The tracheal mite and the 'Varroa' mite are important pests of honey bees in most countries of the world, and extensive resistance has been observed to fluvalinate, the only compound registered in the U. S. for control of 'varroa'. Formic acid is used in other countries, but is hazardous to handle because of its corrosive properties, and no companies in the U. S. have been interested in selling it because of potential liability. We have developed a gel formulation which is easier and safer to handle and can be dispensed in pre-filled packets for use in bee hives. This formuilation has been licensed for commercial production, and represents an opportunity for early registration of an alternate material for control of this pest. This work has already attracted considerable interest in the whole beekeeping industry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NATURAL SUPPRESSION OF HONEY BEE TRACHEAL 'MITES' IN NORTH DAKOTA: A FIVE YEAR STUDY Author(s): ERICKSON JR ERIC H KING ALAN KING JOANNE Interpretive Summary: The honey bee tracheal mite is an internal parasite of honey bees that infests the small tubes (tracheae) through which the bee breathes. This mite has been responsible for killing large numbers of honey bee colonies world wide. Whether or not some strains of honey bees may resistant or tolerate infestations of these 'mites' has been hotly debated. This study of eighty honey bee colonies clearly demonstrates that low-level chronic infestations of tracheal 'mites' may persist in certain honey bee colonies without affecting colony vigor or productivity. The factors responsible for this mite resistance are yet unknown. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HYGIENIC BEHAVIOUR OF HONEY BEES AND ITS APPLICATION FOR CONTROL OF BROOD DISEASES AND 'VARROA' MITES Author(s): SPIVAK M. GILLIAM MARTHA A Interpretive Summary: This invitational review is a summary of research on hygienic behavior of honey bees, a genetically determined trait that aids bee colonies in coping with brood diseases and 'Varroa' mites. Nurse bees in hygienic colonies remove diseased brood. Techniques to screen colonies for the behavior are detailed. Areas needing more research are noted. It is concluded that selection for hygienic behavior should be a routine component of bee breeding to reduce dependence on chemical controls and to decrease contamination of bee products from pesticides and antibiotics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture National Agricultural Library Technology Transfer Information Center URL of this page: http://www.nalusda.gov/ttic/cgi-bin/tektran-absV3.pl For comments and questions, contact ttic@nalusda.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:42:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leo Walford Subject: Re: Kashmir bee virus Re the discussions about KBV and the importing of bees from New Zealand or elsewhere, I just wonder when we (humans) will ever learn. History is littered with so many examples of humans moving organisms from the places where they are native and relatively benign to other places where they prove to have unforeseen and terrible consequences. For example: the introduction of smallpox and influenza to the Americas by Europeans the introduction of rabbits to Australia by the British the introduction of rats and cats to New Zealand the introduction of varroa to Europe and North America It simply is not possible to guarantee that the importation of bees from New Zealand to the UK will not result in terrible consequences. Is the potential reward to be gained from such importation worth the risk? I don't think it's possible to say, since it's not possible to know the actual risk of doing it until it's too late. The New Zealanders (presumably influenced by the terrible havoc wrought on their native wildlife by imported cats, dogs, rats etc.) do not allow the importation of bees to New Zealand, and I think they're right to do so. The only sensible thing seems to be for the UK to do the same. Please forgive the rant, and it shouldn't be taken personally by those wishing to do the importation - it's not directed at them, but at the principle of the thing. Leo Walford London, UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "James C. King" Subject: Bear Fence Controller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings: I am currently using two electric fences to protect bees from bear damage at two remote location. These are standard set-ups using a 12 volt auto battery and Parmak fencers. Because bears are nocturnal, I would like to have either a timer or photocell turn these units on and off at dusk and daylight to increase the time the battery operates before requiring recharging. Of course, these devices would have to operate on 12 volts and hopefully be reasonably priced. Can anyone help? Ideas I checked include: 1. The photocell controller in the power pak used for low voltage outdoor lighting - the photocell is on the 120 volt side of the unit. 2. GM vehicles have a photocell which turns headlights on when car is started and it's dark - one cannot buy just the photocell. One must purchase a wiring kit + photocell for about $35. Thanks, Jim King, Riegelville, PA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: on trip in Chile Subject: Re: Oilseed Rape Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes see http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html Christopher Slade wrote: > > What happens to the HMF levels in your rape honey when it is heated? Has > anybody tested and measured? > Chris Slade -- Chile op http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/Chili.html -- Rotterdam------ 51.55 N, 4.29 E-------------- San Javier------ 35.36 S, 71.44 W-------Chile- -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:52:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Bear Fence Controller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ideas I checked include: 1. The photocell controller in the power pak used for low voltage outdoor lighting - the photocell is on the 120 volt side of the unit. 2. GM vehicles have a photocell which turns headlights on when car is started and it's dark - one cannot buy just the photocell. One must purchase a wiring kit + photocell for about $35. Thanks, Jim King, Riegelville, PA Have you thought about adding a solar cell to charge the battery durring the day? Other power/battery solutions may be found at www.jade-mtn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:12:36 -0700 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: wild bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Richard, You'll find that homeowners don't always know the facts on bees the way beekeepers would like them to. I've been called out on umpteen places where homeowners swear they know the difference between yellow-jackets & bees, only to find they didn't. If there were bees in the building for the last five years, there's always the remote possibility they're there from a repeating population. However, with the mite devastation, it's more likely the bees were killed time & time again - only to be replaced by another swarm. Bees will quickly find any 'empty' bee-site which was previously populated. The remaining wax is a dead giveaway when the temperatures start to increase. To get an idea how powerful the smell of melting wax can be for bees, leave some comb out on your deck or porch when it gets hot. Many times, pesticide places will be called back year after year, as the bees come back to the same house time & time again - until all available space (large enough for a hive) is filled with insulation. Good luck with your hive removal & feel free to e-mail me if you need help. Matthew Westall in Castle Rock, CO Richard Spiekhout wrote: > I have had my first request to remove bees from a building. My > question is, if they have been there for years( 5 or more), how did > they > survive? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:40:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Billett Subject: Alberta Clipper.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello All. Just to add to David Greens earlier posting about our 'very' warm winter. I am located in Lexington, South Carolina, USA. probably 70 miles or so further inland from David. My are almost busting out of their hive this spring. (I can only imagine how much stronger they would have been if I wouldnt have fed them that deadly Sugar Syrup). With the Dandelions, daffodils, Forsythia (for the last month), Redbuds, lots of flowering Shrubs busting out in bloom, and my vehicles dusted in yellow Pollen, I am starting to think were going to have an early flow this year. I started Beekeeping last year in May, and all the folks were talking about was how bad the swarming was in April. They normally Super around April 1st, and those who did not super by around mid march last year lost a lot of swarms. This winter has been milder and warmer, and everyone is talking about Supering in mid march, Could it possibly start before mid march? Any other SC Beekeepers thinking the same? or have any thoughts? Also, Is there anyone in the SC area that may have a hive scale for Sale?? It appears that a scale would be a sure fire way to tell when a flow starts. Rod Billett Lexington, SC USA Hobbiest with 2 Hives - One being a swarm caught last August, Hived on foundation and never would have survived w/o Sugar Syrup - it is now occupying a double deep with 20 frames of drawn comb! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:47:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Feeding Bees Honey versus Sugar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As evidenced by the comments about the pros and cons of feeding honey versus syrup and of natural versus unnatural, we need to be careful about stating generalities based on beekeeping practices in any region or part of the world. A couple of years ago, a very knowledgeable scientist from central Europe visited us and toured several commercial beekeeping operations in MT. After the tours, he pointed out the "errors" being made by commerical beekeepers. Keep in mind that our beekeepers often are second or third generation members of beekeeping families who run thousands of colonies. Somehow, they have succeeded despite mites, diseases, the stresses of migratory beekeeping, etc. and the "errors" Some of our beekeepers feed sugar syrup - not because it is a "better" food (get some syrup with a high HMF content and see what happens), but because it is cheaper AND easier to fill tank trucks with syrup and then fill feeders with a hose (when you have to feed 1500 - 14,000 colonies this is not a small task). Typically, the truck drives through stockpile yards at a slow pace. One beekeeper pops the lid of the hive, the other pops in the hose, and in a matter of less than a minute they are on to the next hive. Perhaps the greatest benefit of sugar syrup is that it shouldn't contain any bee disease spores. Other beekeepers hold back part of the previous years honey crop and argue that their bees build faster on honey and do better than bees fed sugar or sugar syrup. They acknowledge that it usually costs them more to feed honey - but that all depends on market values for sugar and honey, transportations costs, etc. which vary from year to year. Again the speed of delivery is a major consideration. These beekeepers rock their hives to judge weight. Light hives get a super of honey. Again, a truck slowing drives through the yard and the runners (beekeepers) add the supers as needed(going as fast as they can walk). Now, our friend from Europe argues that they all MUST feed sugar candy. Too much moisture in the hive from honey or syrup! AND some of beekeepers might agree, they feed dry sugar in a tray on top of the hive (but only when the bees can get fly to get water). Our friend comes from a very humid climate, and I would suspect that excess moisture in the winter or spring could be a problem. Montana is very dry by comparison. Also, in the country where candy is fed, a few hundred hives is a very large operation. Not so in Montana. Our scientist also argues that candy would be cheaper, easier, and faster to put in the hives. But I have a hard time seeing how any approach can be much faster than filling internal feeders with a hose that is about 3" in diameter from a tank holding several hundred gallons of syrup. No one produces 10# candy blocks in this part of the world, much less by the tens of thousands. Our beekeepers aren't set up to make it (and they don't have to do anything to "make" the syrup, unless they are starting with dry sugar and adding water). You would have to have trucks piled high with candy blocks - lots of manual labor. You would also have to have additional equipment - a feeder or super on top of the hive to hold the candy block and protect it from rain. And, you would probably have to cover the load on the truck to protect it from rain. So, candy works fine in his country and maybe it has some benefits - but his beekeepers are set up for it. They can either make it or buy it. With respect to honey dew versus floral honey. I have no idea of the nutritional values of honey dew nectar versus floral nectar. Again, the availability of this form of "honey" varies by geographical location and vegetation types. In Europe, some beekeepers set their hives out in the forests to collect honey dew. In the U.S., I am not aware of any market for this specialty honey. I suspect that bees in the mountains and forested areas of western MT gather honey dew, although probably not in late summer. I also suspect that all bees in most parts of the world gather some honey dew - honey dew secreting aphids occur on lots of species of plants. However, trees being large plants offer lots of food to the aphids, lots of room for aphid populations, and a large source of this secretion that is robbed by bees and other insects. Finally, bees evolved to overwinter on honey. Feral colonies don't get syrup or supplemental honey (unless they rob it from managed bee operations). The problem is that beekeepers take honey from the bees. If you steal most of their food stores, you may have to give some back. Somehow, I doubt that sugar syrup (made by humans) is superior to the food that the bees make and store for themselves. Cheaper, maybe. Easier to feed, probably. Disease free, should be. Nutritionally superior, doubtful. Inferior, not measurably so - or lots of beekeepers would not have been able to keep their bees alive. Bottom line, feeding colonies that are low on food stores is better than starvation. Live bees in hives are certainly better than dead bees. Whether bees fed candy, syrup, dry sugar, honey dew honey, or floral honeys are better or worse off is a much more complex and difficult set of issues to assess. Cheers Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:21:58 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Re: Bear Fence Controller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James C. King wrote: > > Greetings: > > I am currently using two electric fences to protect bees from bear damage > at two remote location. ... I would like to > have either a timer or photocell turn these units on and off at dusk and > daylight to increase the time the battery operates before requiring > recharging. I have had plenty of experience with bears. You may have some success with the fences, but not likely 100%. I've not tried the fences, however, so I'd like to hear from you and others how it turns out. I have a couple of friends who like to keep family hobby hives in areas where bears frequent. For the hobbyist with a hive or two, I've been suggesting elevated caches. This is not practical, of course for a large number of hives. You may also consider adapting an infrared motion detector. It should be easy to do and pretty inexpensive. Obvious benefits, since bears also forage during light conditions that would be ineffectively controlled by photocells; and a motion sensor will only drain the batteries when a critter is there, not during set periods of hours per night. Just a thought. Regards Steve -- Steve Andison
Alaska Resource Economic Development (ARED)
(907) 790-2111
Fax: 907-790-1929 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:44:18 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Apis Geneticist's Debate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Layne Westover wrote: > > >Just a short note on some of the comments of genetics being changed or > affected > >by what the bees eat. I think that what was really meant by this statement > is > >that the way the genes are expressed--the expression of the genes--can be > >affected by diet. The genetics are not changed. The DNA is not changed, > but > >how the genes express themselves can change depending on the dietary > inputs. > >I think this is what Dr. Stefan was meaning, and it is a logically valid > point. > >Better diets and nutrition and all animals and plants are better able to > resist > >diseases and stresses IMHO. > > > >Layne Westover Hi Layne, With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, let me offer MHO. I believe that this discussion has omitted some relevant theory on mutations and natural selection. I won't particularly debate whether or not genetic expression may be changed visa vi diet, although I don't believe that would be born out even over time. However, diet is not generally considered a mutagin, unless something that can alter DNA is ingested. In the event that a genetic variation occurs that is negative, and of mortal significance, the individual, and thus the genetic transfer would likely not survive. Fatal characteristics are not usually selected for, they are selected against and will invariably be carried in the minority of the population. It will not become, according to theory, a "selected for", or dominant trait in following generations. The only way that I can see diet changing genetic material or expression is with an operation of an independent variable. For example, lets say that bees that survive well on cane sugar, also have a genetic propensity to succumb to mites under less environmental stress than other bees that survive only on honey. The genetic weakness to fall victim to mites was already there, the diet did not change that genetic expression. Only those that can survive on cane sugar will survive, and if those are ALSO the ones with a weakness for mites, that trait will survive with them. The genetic expression was not changed, but the frequency of that expression will increase as an operation of selecting for cane sugar metabolism. However, and this is the point that I think some are trying to make, if the bee industry as a whole selects a single method of beekeeping, then man may begin selecting for unknown traits in the species. This would only hold true if apiculture begin representing the majority of the bee species on the planet. If man selects for what he views as a positive trait, he may inadvertently be selecting for another negative trait. Nature would weed out these negative traits eventually, but if man intervenes with massive and UNIVERSAL culture techniques, the genetic representation would be unnaturally high. This man-made selection process could theoretically lead to extinction of bees. As the theory, goes, however, random selection will keep only those genetic pools that are capable and adapted to surviving. I would suggest, therefore, that we are in no danger of genetic extinction of bees through our manipulation of feed. Why? Because beekeepers are a stubborn and opinionated lot. I don't believe that we will ever see universal agreement by apiculturists about what to feed and treat all cultured bees with. This is a good thing. No single genetic trait will likely be selected for by artificial environmental or nutritional sources selected by mankind, because man will never reach total consensus on anything! Our obstinate advocacy of our own individual experiences will save the bee from our unilateral destruction! Hooray for the bee! Our differences are our salvation. Diversity will prevail. Thanks to our stubbornness, not every bee population is treated the same, and so they as a species will remain diverse. If every bee were treated with the same prophylactic antibiotic, we may see a disease strain resistant to that antibiotic gain strength and wreak havoc. If every bee were fed on the same diet, we may select for those that can survive on simple or complex sugars, or some specific variable, and unintentionally select for another weakness that would universally threaten the bee. These things will not happen. I predict that bees will be around for a long time, and if they go by the way of other extinct critters, it will likely be because of something more universally changed in the environment than man can ever achieve through apiculture techniques. So rest easy, my apiculture friends. Our difference of opinions will save the humble and wonderful bee. Natural and random conditions will prevail despite our choice of myrtle oil or smoke; corn syrup, cane sugar, honey, molasses, or grandma's best peach preserves. Go in peace, ye of differing sects of the Apis mellifera religion. We are grateful for your particular beliefs, but yours will not prevail over all others. That is our salvation. Bee at Rest. Steve Steve Andison
Alaska Resource Economic Development (ARED)
(907) 790-2111
Fax: 907-790-1929 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:48:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: Re: bees and ducks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have ducks and geese on my pond, in addition to 100 or so candian geese that winter here, and have never had any problem with bees bothering them. The bees often buzz the corn dish to get at the powdered corn left from the cracking, but still don't bother a goose or duck eating from it. ---------- > From: Bruce W. Clark > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: bees and ducks > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 8:13 AM > > I keep ducks in my pond with no problem with the bees using it also. You= > might go to > www.onelist.com for various serv lists dealing with ducks under subject = > Animals sub-subject Birds. > Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stacy Brockett Subject: Re: bees and ducks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beeing a game bird breeder I can safely say that ducks (and most other birds) do eat bees...among other things. I doubt a couple of ducks would do much damage since I have yet to see a duck stay on the water 27/7... most of it is spent near the water or at the edge dabbling in the mud for roots, grit, and whaterver else they happen to catch in the water. If you want to be sure your bees will have a safce drinking area, you may want to get a little hardware cloth or chicken wire and fence off a small area for them. Maybe lay a cinder block at water's edge for them with the wire "fence" around it. Maybe put some sort of food source on it to encourage them to use the brick... otherwise it would probably be best to have a seperate water source. Also, depending on the breed of ducks, the number, and the size of the pond...you could find your pond in some very serious trouble. Most of the time though, the ducks seem to have other things on their mind besides bees... Stacy L. Spitz ) 1998 Stonegate Meadows http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/1393 qwnramoth@juno.com On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:32:32 -0600 Bill Johnson writes: > Can anybody >tell >me if ducks would eat bees? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:47:07 -0800 Reply-To: pyramid@epix.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pyramid Subject: Bear fence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year, my beeyard fence of 4 barbed wire (2 hot) was torn through by bear(s). I have replaced it with 8 wire high tensile with about 6" spacing, (3 hot) topped with a single barbed wire (also hot). Final height is about 60". I use a good quality charger with a face meter which tells you if you are having contact or shortage problems. I also use toothpicks to attach bacon to the nose high (the bear's nose) hot wire. The bacon must be replaced frequently as the birds (titmice) eat it. So far, so good but we are just now beginning bear damage season here in NE Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, one doesn't usually know if your fence works, only when it doesn't. Burns ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:06:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Re Kashmir bee virus/tektran thread In-Reply-To: <199902171500.HAA15739@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:20 PM 2/16/99 -0800, you wrote: >United States Department of Agriculture >Agricultural Research Service >Updated: 1998-12-18 > >SEROLOGICAL AND MOLECULAR EVIDENCE FOR KASHMIR BEE VIRUS TRANSMISSION BY THE >PARASITIC >MITE, 'VARROA' JACOBSONI >MOLECULAR STUDIES IN THREE STAINS OF KASHMIR BEE VIRUS >THE ROLE OF VIRUSES IN BEE PARASITIC MITE SYNDROME >Author(s): >HUNG AKEY C >SHIMANUKI HACHIRO >KNOX DAVID A The error in these papers is to suggest that these virus and more have/do not by themselves caused great unexplained loss in honeybees for years in the US and other areas without a connection to any parasites. Dogs have fleas! If a dog is run down by a Mack truck and lives a few days the fleas may appeared to have killed the dog as they will multiply to outrageous numbers but the flattened gut is the killer. NO one has demonstrated adding know numbers of vampire mites to a clean hive in the field will in X days cause that hive to collapse and die. It may be possible to predict the out come of hives that do show hair less bees in the field, not saying anyone is doing that but would suggest that you mark these hives and see for yourself if you have the black bee or hair less symptoms. Bee PMS is bull pucky, and could just as well be expressed as Isle of Write disease or disappearing disease or SAD bees. Its just a new name for symptoms that have been around for 80 or more years. Unless Shimanuki has changed his tune he will argue there is no such thing as stress and I suggest that almost all things can cause stress in hive bees and under the right conditions will cause the hive to collapse dramatically with or with out mites, the same as hives will do even when mites are controlled as directed by the product label. I would like to say more but I am fighting with the 4 horseman and am not good for long even at he keyboard. Andy- (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:18:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Bear fence Comments: To: Pyramid In-Reply-To: <199902172055.NAA53822@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Pyramid wrote: I also use toothpicks to > attach bacon to the nose high (the bear's nose) hot wire. The bacon > must be replaced frequently as the birds (titmice) eat it. In Alberta one of the guys has had success with putting empty (unwashed) sardine cans on the wire. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: on trip in Chile Subject: Re: Cloudy Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sondra, please do not microwave your honey, if you want a perfect produkt. The micro will destoy all enzyme in seconds, if you only want sugarwater with a funny tast>.microwave it!!! gr, jant. Ian Watson wrote: > It sounds like it is crystallising. >...............or *gently* microwave them. -- Chile op http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/Chili.html -- Rotterdam------ 51.55 N, 4.29 E-------------- San Javier------ 35.36 S, 71.44 W-------Chile- -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:41:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Honeydew honey medical uses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Any "bad thing" has a "good" side. Honeydew honey is bad for bees (if it is not collected by responsible beekeepers before latest middle fall) but it may be very useful for humans. This type of honey, as my friend Janko Bozic told us before, is richer in minerals than the normal "nectar, floral honey". So, according to the usual relation "composition-effects" it may be used in several diseases related to the lack of minerals like osteoporosis for example. Yes, I know, there are other natural sources of minerals, better than honeydew honey, but this last one is better at least because it ease up the absorption of minerals in the guts. Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:49:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: bees and ducks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Bruce wrote: > > I keep ducks in my pond with no problem with the bees using it also. You= > might go to >www.onelist.com for various serv lists dealing with ducks under subject = >Animals sub-subject Birds. > Bruce The best "cooperation" I see between your ducks and your bees is to use varroa drone larvae traps in Spring and Summer to feed your small ducks. The only small "danger", if you give them too many drone larvae, they may make later mainly male ducks... :-)) Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro PS An experiment made several years ago in Romania (of course not so "scientifical" as the Americans will like to hear) prooved that adult pigs and dogs fed regularly, on a long basis with drone larvae gave birth almost only to male "kids"... If this proves to be really right, it can be a "one million dollars idea" isn't it my friends? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:43:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Odds on Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garth Cambray wrote: >In short - I would only put propolis on my skin, as a topical, and >would never eat it unless I was sure where they were collecting the >stuff. I would stick to eating things nature wanted me to eat, rather >than stuff it produced to kill things that tried to eat it. Hi Garth, In your place I will be cautious with applying propolis even externally... It may cause you a bad "contact dermatitis". Except the case of propolis allergies, were very tiny amounts of active substances (like prenyl caffeate) can trigger a "bad" reaction, all other medical uses of propolis falls under the general, well known rule of dosage. So, even if ones takes poison, included "Apistan", it will not die if the dose is under the physiological body's control. Coming back to propolis, let's say that without it, more than sure many from our bees on Earth wouldn't be here anymore. Propolis is "bad", "toxic" etc. for almost all microorganisms which attacks the trees/plants and the bees themselves. Of course, it is not a panacea. There are many other things to discuss on this topic, but I believe it's enough for now. Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu. PS More info on the medical uses & research related to propolis, including "Allergology", Toxicology" etc. you can find in: www.sci.fi/~apither ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:54:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olda Vancata wrote: >Using smoke is 'natural'. Reaction on smoke is 'writen in the genes' >due to milions of year and forest fires. Bees are storing the honey >in the stomach which have a calming effect. Yes, dear friend, you are right, smoking finally calms down the bees. The problem is that smoke particles are bad for us humans, if found in large amounts in honey. I saw in Germany, in Hohenheim, under microscope, polluted with these particles honey, and believe me it didn't look nice... Of course everybody is free to use (any?) methods which are in resonance with his beliefs. However, the clients will make sooner or later the difference... >New methods must bring progress forward. Not stepping back to dark >ages there you promote schamans and praying. > >\vov I agree with the idea of progress. Praying is still important, including to bring the peace in our pretty selfish and unflexible mind, isn't it my friend? Stefan Stangaciu Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:05:45 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Re: Bear Fence Controller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII << Because bears are nocturnal, I would like to have either a timer or photocell turn these units on and off at dusk and daylight to increase the time the battery operates before requiring recharging...>> Hello Gang, First, bears are sometimes, nocturnal. They do move around in daylight hours, especially early morning and just before sunset. This also varies with the season. I lost a hive to a bear durring daylight. It was early, about 5:30 AM And we saw a bear while having breakfast one morning too,he was just passing through. Id hate to see you loose hives to a bear by not keeping the fences on 24 hours a day. I rigged a solar panel from my ham radio stuff and it charges the fence battery just fine. It put out 500ma, and has no trouble keeping a battery of 28 ampere hours up to snuff. de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 02/17/99 19:05:46 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:16:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bear fence In-Reply-To: <199902172123.OAA07505@selway.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:18 PM 2/17/1999 -0700, you wrote: Bears are a problem in MT. The MT Fish and Wildlife Dept has worked with our beekeepers to provide fences that protect bees and bears (a bear who destroys hives is likely to be removed). Our agency has put out a brochure with guidelines. Because our climate tends to be dry, a key recommendation is to place wire mat (usually what we call a woven wire fence) in front of the fences. Even with a weed whacker electric fence charger, a bear on dry ground may not get much of a shock when the soil and vegetation are dry. But, lay a metal mesh fence on the ground and attach it to a grounding stack. Now when the bear approaches the fence, he is standing on a well-grounded surface. The resultant shock tends to discourage most bears. Cheers >On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Pyramid wrote: >I also use toothpicks to >> attach bacon to the nose high (the bear's nose) hot wire. The bacon >> must be replaced frequently as the birds (titmice) eat it. > >In Alberta one of the guys has had success with putting empty >(unwashed) sardine cans on the wire. > > >Best regards, > >Donald Aitken >Edmonton Alberta Canada > > Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:56:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Sugar feeding etc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Like Stefan I am no geneticist but I would remark that he seems to have been seduced by the theory of the French naturalist J.B.P.A. de Monet de Lamark that species have developed by the efforts of organisms to adapt themselves to new conditions. This was exploded by Charles Darwin over a century ago. Where nutrition may have an effect upon genes is when it influences reproductive success. If better or worse fed bees produce more or less queens and drones this will affect the relative quentities of their genes in the pool, but will not create new genes or destroy old ones unless the creatures do not reproduce at all. Whether your grandfather lived on bread and water or caviare and chips you may inherit his red hair or his bad temper but you will not inherit his wooden leg unless he leaves it to you in his will. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:34:08 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Good Neighbor policy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, Restarting an old hobby of beekeeping last summer, my first concern was a good neighbor policy. So when the first honey comb was capped I gave it to all of my abutting neighbors. I live in a farm area,a rural setting, so some neighbors are a much greater distance than they would be in a city. Bees do fly a long way, and a good neighbor policy is very important, especially when parents are concerned about their children being attacked by killer bees.( Many thanks to the media for that one ). Joggers and dog walkers got some honey comb too. I gave it to anyone who stopped by. I'll give some to the mailman, the electric meter reader, the oil man, the UPS guy, and anyone else who will be delivering anything. A friendly smile, a nice chat, and a chunk of comb honey will go a very long way to alleviating fears. Folks think that they are special, in that I have considered them personally and given them something without them having to ask for it or even pay for it. We are all in it together. de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 02/17/99 20:34:08 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:39:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Subject: Re: Let's raise the caliber to "Informed Discussion"! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > Michael Thiele bases > >> the opinion that honeybees are getting weaker and weaker? > upon > > artificial breeding methods (artificial insemination, artificial queen > > breeding, using the larvae of worker bees) .... > > This kind of generalization and mis information has really degraded this > list the last week or so. One need look no further than Sue Cobey's > New World Carniolan breeding program at Ohio State to debunk a claim > that AI (Sue prefers II (instrumental insemination)) leads to weaker > bees. Hi Aaron and All, Artificial insemination of queen bees, with a diverse gene pool, gathered from unrelated drones, will help us in facing some of our beekeeping problems.The fact, that in the USA , we have 8 family's of Apis mellifera as studied by Dr. Sheppard WSU ,in a two year DNA survey. We do not have a great genetic diversity to start with for our queen breeders.So leaving it up to nature and not doing some selective breeding is shooting ourselves in the foot.Instrumental insemination allows us control some of the traits that we are looking for in our bees. The queens that I purchased last year did very well. I did my homework on what stock selection the breeder was using and the fact that he was using semen from 100 drones from various hives to do his insemination.We do have some good work being done by some of our breeders.If we can bring in some more new stock in a controlled manner, we will make some very good progress. If you want to look at natural selection, check out, Apis Scutellata in Africa.What survived was a very defensive bee.Its tough, but hard for us to work compared to our European bees.I believe in nature, but we have to be smart enough to see and understand how She works.We need to use the tools that we have come up with, to improve our stock. Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:48:09 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Re: Sugar feeding debate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Whether your grandfather lived on bread and water or caviare and chips you may > inherit his red hair or his bad temper but you will not inherit his wooden leg > unless he leaves it to you in his will. > Chris Slade Chris, Now why couldn't I have thought to say that? Well done. (And so concise.) Lets not forget, however, that the overall success of a species as a whole will depend on individual systems metabolizing the food source available. If an organism develops a dependency on a food source that excludes the previous metabolic byproducts, the organism may still survive, but the byproduct, though not required for survival, may be lost. I think that ultimately, this is what Stefan is eluding to. The honey bee may survive, but if we are feeding, or introducing into its environment, that which will prevent or impede the production of previously useful benefits to mankind... have we lost? The honey bee will survive and adjust. Will we have lost in our exchange for production? Stefan still has a point that has not been negated, despite the questions arising regarding genetic inheritance. The fact which gives me most comfort in this debate, however, is that in no case are we talking about year round replacement of the natural diet. The honey bees that survive on cane sugar for a couple of months out of the year, and still metabolize and utilize nectar, pollen, and honey for the remainder will remain essentially unchanged. The products that we derive from the bee will remain unchanged. The part of the debate that goes more to the heart of the matter is this: Will we, by introduction of chemicals fed to honey bees, change the chemical composition of the by-products of the bee despite the survival of the species? If those chemical changes are passed along to us, will they impact the effects that we desire as a consuming species? This question baits research on a case by case basis, as I doubt that debate will answer the questions considering our limited present knowledge. The point should be well taken on both sides. Smoke is a carcinogen. Are trace amounts of carcinogenic substances present in the by-products of the bee? Essential oils contain toxins and carcinogens as well. Are they going to show up? The final question is then: if these trace elements show up in bee products, will they be at a level that is significantly detrimental to us? Or will our very adaptive body chemistries be capable of filtering, isolating, and storing or passing them out without costing us an additional day of mortality? Alas, there is no financial profit to be had in answering these questions. We will likely never definitively know the answers. But I refer back to my previous post: we need the realists and idealists alike to keep the dynamics of progress flowing. I detest the logic that tells us that whatever equates to increased production is good. Good in a financial sense perhaps. But we have enough antibiotics, growth hormones, pesticides and such in our food! I also detest the logic that says, "whatever the planet originally supplied for an organism, is all that we may allow into its environment." That way lies starvation and disease for a planet burgeoning with humans. And finally, I detest people who always take both sides of an issue. But, then I guess some things about life (and myself) are just like that. Yours... on the fence. Steve -- Steve Andison
Alaska Resource Economic Development (ARED)
(907) 790-2111
Fax: 907-790-1929 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:29:08 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan Stangaciu wrote: > The problem is that smoke particles are bad for us humans, if found > in large amounts in honey. I agree with the idea of progress. > > Praying is still important, including to bring the peace in our > pretty selfish and unflexible mind, isn't it my friend? > I'll have to agree with you Stefan, that smoke particles are bad for humans. But how much is too much for our bodies to handle? In addition there are so many different kinds of fuels for smokers, and some, I presume, are worse trace elements in our honey than others. But, (he says with an edge of pragmatism creeping into his voice), I eat a great deal of smoked salmon. I also eat a good deal of fish and fowl cooked over a wood fire. I also eat more than a few meals off of the summer barbecue grill. I suppose that I'm convinced that these small amounts of smoke will not shorten my life. I will concede, however, that I may very well be wrong and will die sooner than need be. But I'll die with a smile and a ring of barbecue sauce around my lips! Seriously, I don't know how much of these carcinogens that our bodies can handle via our natural defenses against them. Certainly we have inherited some fantastic abilities to shed carcinogens and toxins, and to resist a level of free radicals. How much is too much, and how much is permissible in exchange for our enjoyment of life. Each of us needs to ask how "lucky" we feel, and how much unknown risk we are willing to put on the roulette wheel of living. I will remain somewhat in the middle regarding the importance of this issue. I still use wood in my bee smoker. I also am unsure of the chemical residues found in alternative methods for calming or chasing away bees while working with them. If I understand the other residual chemical effects of your suggested alternatives, I would be more than willing to give them a try. (Nancy is an essential oil advocate and is pulling for you on this one). The best of everysting to you, my friend, Steve PS- To Olda, Shamans and prayers have produced some pretty inexplicable results in our rational world. Don't underestimate that reality. Regards -- Steve Andison
Alaska Resource Economic Development (ARED)
(907) 790-2111
Fax: 907-790-1929 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:09:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Alden P. Marshall" Subject: Re: Risk involved with old combs There seems to be more variability in the thickness of the mid-rib of the comb than there does in the thickness of the cell wall. I can think of at least one reason for this. As we know bees like a certain space between combs and the only way they can attempt to compensate for this is to extend the cell walls. Now of course to only do this means the cell becomes to deep. Well the obvious compensation for that is to reduce the depth. If this were the case I suspect the mid-rib depth could be considerably variable from frame to frame, depending upon the precision of end bar width and space between. Wouldn't it be interesting to compare mid-ribs in hives where some beekeepers use 1 less frame than what the equipment was designed for against hives that use the full compliment? Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 Busybee9@Juno.com B_line@msn.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:17:41 -0900 Reply-To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Andison Organization: Alaska Resource Economic Development Subject: Re: Let's raise the caliber to "Informed Discussion"! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy wrote: > Hi Aaron and All, > Artificial insemination of queen bees, with a diverse gene pool, > gathered from unrelated drones, will help us in facing some of our > beekeeping problems.The fact, that in the USA , we have 8 family's of > Apis mellifera as studied by Dr. Sheppard WSU ,in a two year DNA survey. > We do not have a great genetic diversity to start with for our queen > breeders.So leaving it up to nature and not doing some selective > breeding is shooting ourselves in the foot.Instrumental insemination > allows us control some of the traits that we are looking for in our > bees. Note: He said "traits" plural. > The queens that I purchased last year did very well. I did my homework > on what stock selection the breeder was using and the fact that he was > using semen from 100 drones from various hives to do his insemination. I applaud you, Fella! > I believe in nature, but we have > to be smart enough to see and understand how She works.We need to use > the tools that we have come up with, to improve our stock. > > Roy Nettlebeck A-HA!!! At last there is a post that I shall not ride the fence on. BRAVO Mr. Nettlebeck! An excellent post that I found hard to abbreviate for response citation here. I am but a novice beekeeper; but I do do something about limited gene pool selection for diversity. The only caveat that I will make to my endorsement, is that I remain wary of the term "selective breeding". The process that you describe above is emphasizing diversity and randomness within a restricted genetic barrier. And yes, we CAN understand nature and how She works, and cooperate with and even assist her. The queens that you purchased last year had a broader random opportunity of uniting DNA with prospective mates by intentional process, than they would have had if left to their own devices. This "structured randomness" is good for the species! It strengthens the bee on our continent in a way that they themselves are incapable of doing right now. Good for man for doing something right! Now, if someone begins selecting for a single trait. We are in for trouble and I withdraw my endorsement. If the entire industry begins selecting for that trait, then I will run and hide until the smoke clears. If some omniscient breeder decides that "this hive" or "this strain is the best because it ________ (fill in the blank) then he or she is doing a very bad thing indeed. If we are truly "selectively breeding" and select for the most docile bee, we may develop the least productive bee. If we select for the most productive bee, we may get the most aggressive. If we select for the biggest, most weather resistant, or any SINGLE trait, then we error. We may, in fact, wind up with a bee that a single virus or parasite can wipe out in a few short seasons. I, myself, have posted requests on this list looking for the heartiest bee I could find for my northern climate. I still wish to find that colony. But apiculturists must be mindful that we are looking for the STRONGEST AMONG a diverse race. We are not looking to develop the super breed by single trait selective breeding. Thanks Roy, Steve -- Steve Andison
Alaska Resource Economic Development (ARED)
(907) 790-2111
Fax: 907-790-1929 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:54:26 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Bear fence In-Reply-To: <21252486503532@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > In Alberta one of the guys has had success with putting empty > (unwashed) sardine cans on the wire. Actually, when I was working as an inspector 25 or so years ago, *full* cans of sardines were used. One was attached to a fence wire on each of the four sides of the quadrangle. Several nail holes were made in the lid to allow the smell out. Similarly nail holes permitted a wire to be threaded thru and attached firmly to the fence (after all a can of sardines was 11 cents then, and who would want to lose one to a bear). The cans would last a season. More details in the logs... Allend ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:27:56 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: Kashmir bee virus In-Reply-To: <99Feb17.021837hwt.45330(10)@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, T & M Weatherhead wrote: > ...we have always been told it was because of = > the viruses in Australia and New Zealand that transhipping was stopped. = > New Zealand has since gained transhipping rights. All transshipment of bees through Hawaii was banned by USDA after 1993, following a reinterpretation of the U.S. "Honey Bee Act of 1922" to equate transshipment with importation. Under the Act, bees could only be imported from Canada. Lobbying by the New Zealand bee industry during 1994 resulted in new regulations permitting bees from N.Z. to transit U.S. ports, beginning in 1995. An article published in the New Zealand BeeKeeper (vol. 3, no. 9, pp. 9-12 [October 1996]) provides background. ************************************************************************* Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814, U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 FAX: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) "Bugs are not going to inherit the earth. They own it now. So we might as well make peace with the landlord."--T. Eisner (1989) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:40:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Nature is the enemy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Al, you say "Nature is the enemy" ? Nature is nature and it certainly is not >the enemy ! Were it not for nature, you for one would not exist ! The >viruses,the mites, the bacteria, etc., are all nature's natural controls. They would >most likely "not have gotten to the present out of control state" if man >were not constantly messing around with this and with that - and subsequently >throwing all nature out of balance. You also need to remember that, because >life depends on other forms of life to live. Your argument gets weak the first time you or I go to a doctor. We, at that point are fighting the "natural controls". If we have had medical help to survive before we reproduced, we have foiled natures best plan to stop the weak genetics from spreading. Our (or our parents) trip to the doctor was "throwing all nature out of balance." I for one would have been dead years ago as a result of bacteria and viral attacks. >I'd like you to consider Al, which form of life is responsible for the >most massive everlasting irreversible destruction on this lovely planet >- the mites or us humans ? I don't see any mites putting their trash in >our local town dump that threatens our water supply! Would you be willing to include other "natural" processes such as ice ages (before greenhouse gasses came from autos) and the like? How long ago did the virus start killing things off? Why think of putting trash near the water supply as anything other than a selection process? >Those bits of life that couldn't make it, that you blame on nature for >running into extinction, are simply examples of genetics that didn't work >in the environment in which that bit life was living. Yes, but now man (and what man does) is now part of the environment in which these things live. We are part of the same "nature". If something we do puts reproductive pressure on another species then we are doing nothing more or less than what an ice age did long before man existed. So if man kills it off then its genetics just didn't work in the environment in which it was living. We were brought in by this "nature" and are now part of its process. In a way nature has tended to spread out and then weed out. Could one think that man is just the lastest weed-puller? Creatures that we like (for whatever reason) are given a survival advantage, and things we do not care about are selected against. Bees that do well in boxes are given an advantage over bees that do well in trees. Are there today, more European bees in boxes than in trees? If so then the bees being liked by man has given it a survival advantage. Anyway, the context of the original post was that in keeping bees in boxes, nature was not our friend. Maybe if we stopped trying to keep bees in boxes, stayed within ten miles of our place of birth our entire lives and did not form tools out of wood and rock all would be well. I am just glad that I do not think anything I wrote in this post is true :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:35:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Butcher Organization: Dundee University Subject: Re: Let's raise the caliber to "Informed Discussion"! Comments: To: aredandi@mailhost.alaska.net In-Reply-To: Hi everyone, The following is for consideration, and not as a correction. Put another way, what i say below is only my opinion and i do not wish to convey any authority behind it. > The queens that you purchased last year had a broader random opportunity of > uniting DNA with prospective mates by intentional process, than they would > have had if left to their own devices. This "structured randomness" is good > for the species! It strengthens the bee on our continent in a way that they > themselves are incapable of doing right now. Good for man for doing something right! Whilst id agree in general, because what you have done is allow the opportunity for sperm to fertilise eggs from drones that would normally be outside the queens mating flight territory. Assuming partial genetic isolation by distance this artificail form of panmixis will allow all genetic components to be mixed...assuming they are capable of fertilising the egg (development thereafter to a functional adult imago is the same selective pressure and constraints as "normally" fertilised eggs). The only point id draw is that you are bypassing female mate selection (which male she copulates with...some evidence for this in A. mellifera), and sperm allocation after multiple mating (i.e. which drone she preferentially uses the sperm of.. no evidence in A. mellifera to my knowledge but it hasnt really been looked for so cannot be excluded), and thus selection against certain male traits. This method also to a large extent removes sperm competition (again not ascertained if it occurs in A. mellifera). Is this a problem. Is artificial insemination a bad thing. IMHO, but i am no expert, NO. {Artificial insemination would only remove the ability of males to induce sperm competition, or alter female selction against certain male traits if done persistently without wild type matings over succesive generations. Enjoy Rob Robert Butcher, Evolutionary and Ecological Entomology Unit, Department of Biological Sciences, Dundee University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Tayside, Scotland, UK. Work Phone:- 01382-344291 (Office), 01382-344756 (Lab). Fax:- 01382-344864 e-mail:- r.d.j.butcher@dundee.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:50:39 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: shai marchaim Subject: Re: bear problemes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit shai marchaim wrote: > > > >> >> Dear BEE-L Members, >> >> We have a product that will protect your hives from bears. > > The product is a metal structure that connects to the Easy Bee rig > product, and makes your hives into one block that the bear can not > tear. > The price of the unit is only 110$, and it is easy to use. You save > all the expenses in a charger and in the work with the barbed wire, > and because it is metal structure you do not need any maintenance.. > The product is simple you can see it as an accessory in our site - > www.bee-guard.co.il > We have already two distributors of the product in the U.S.A. > If you need more information please contact me. > > Shai Marchaim > > >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> Shai Marchaim >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:46:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Bees, genetics, human longevity. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: >Like Stefan I am no geneticist.... (snip) >Whether your grandfather lived on bread and water or caviare and chips you may >inherit his red hair or his bad temper but you will not inherit his wooden leg >unless he leaves it to you in his will. >Chris Slade Whatever the theory will say, the Americans and the "Westerners" usually, have a much, much higher risk to have a cancer, including the beekeepers which sometimes don't care of their diet or the degree of polution in their environment. The Africans which are not so rich and eat mainly bananas, vegetables or un-processed food, and live in a healthier environment and so on, have much less risk of such diseases. Again, cancer can not develop in the body unless the celullar duplication (including the chromosomial "functioning") is disbalanced. "Diseased" ancestors, having cancers, hemophylia, strokes and so on, transmits for sure "tendencies" to make these diseases to their offspring. Weak, diseased bees even if they will not transmit any "bad" genes in the way accepted by the actual geneticians, they will transmit these let's say "characteristics", FOR SURE, to their swarms, artificial or natural, it doesn't matter and this will be reflected in their general future health and resistance to various diseases, including the viral related ones. Again I'm not a bee genetician so I would like to hear the expert opinion of our specialists from this list, specialists which works in bee biology (queen, bee breeding) laboratories. By the way, related to genetics, not to change the subject, I believe that most of the beekeepers have too a "longevity related gene" on chromosome 8. These beekeepers (persons) having a tendency to a longer life, with or without a wooden leg, :-)) have a certain sign, or sometimes two of them (which is better) on their forehead. Has anybody on the list saw also these genetically transmitted signs? Kind regards, Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:00:28 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: bear fences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use a 4 strand electric fence, with a Gallagher mini-strip grazer charger. Uses 10 "D" cell batteries. They last about 10 weeks. Enough time to revisit the yard several times. Cost about $100. With bacon placed on the top wire, I've never had a bear go through the fence, even if I erect the fence after the bear is actively working the yard. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:03:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Warren Otto Subject: Country Canada on CBC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last night on Country Canada they did short story on the research taking place at Simon Fraser U with regards to varroa. I think that the show is re-braodcast on CBC Newsworld over the weekend (but don't quote me on this - we don't have cable) for those who want to pick it up. Check CBC's homepage at http://www.tv.cbc.ca for further information. You can out Country Canada's site here as well. Warren Otto ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:58:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: Bear Fences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I think just about everything has been covered here, one fairly important point remains. "Not all fence chargers are created equal." We discovered this a number of years ago. Some models give you a strong initial output, but handle little resistance (i.e. a 200 lb bear on dry ground felt nothing after the first "twing" if he continued to challenge). New Zealand and Austalian companies gained a lot of ground here in the late seventies, because their fencers were designed to handle a mob of sheep all contacting the wire at once. What a difference. PEL, Gallagher, & Speedrite are all excellent imports. "Some" North American Companies have risen to the challenge now. The ones I know to be good are Parmak & Striker. "Clean," unimpeded readings tell you nothing, what will it do under load. Solar Panels give peice of mind (Avoids "I forgot the replacement battery"or "Is this battery getting old? It was good for four weeks last time."). We no longer use sardine cans unless we have a location we are fencing after an attack. We felt they were attracting critters that may not have otherwise come to the yard (ex. Skunks always seemed worse in those locations with cans on the fence). Finally, I am told there is a new product on the market called a "Critter Skidder"(or something close). It is battery operated and emmits a high pitched scream when it's motion detector is activated. It is supposed to have a range of 20-25 feet. I should be getting more info soon and will post it then. David Tharle Ardmore, AB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:03:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees, genetics, human longevity. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephan, I realize I will never see it since you make many statements without backup, but what are your facts supporting this, since desease is much more rampant in Africa than the US. Plus, most cancers are deseases of the old, therefor, if your society dies young, you won't see the higher incidence of cancer you will in societies which have greater longivity. For one, I am tired of this thread, but the glaring, off the wall comments that are made need refuting. I know that had I just started beekeeping and this list was dominated by Stephan and those who believe like him, I would have lost all my bees fairly quickly and never bothered to start again. As I said before, I tried the natural route and it does not work in Maine. It may work in a more forgiving climate, but even then quality and quanitity would suffer. I also note that most of us want to do the right thing and would love to be natural, whatever that really means. But because we are not organic, but pragmatic, we tend to let much of what comes from the world of the fringe organic movement- the radical side- go by without comment, because we know it is an exercise in futility to change thier minds. But they never stop, and often get the public's ear. That is why the post, I think by Allan, to get back on topic is not heeded by Stephan. He is on topic. The rest of us are not. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Stefan Stangaciu wrote: Stephan wrote > The Africans which are not so rich and eat mainly bananas, vegetables or > un-processed food, and live in a healthier environment and so on, have much > less risk of such diseases. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:55:31 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Shipping bees by air MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Justin, Hello from the Philippines! We had been shipping package bees by air to Jeddah and Riyadh since 1990. I am sending you separately, a "Protocol for Shipping Live Bees by Air" which we use for domestic air shipments. The only things that will be different for international air shipments are: 1. Obtaining a health certificate and export permit from the country of origin. 2. Hongkong's quarantine regulations. 3. Length of voyage. Lastly, make sure of your source. You don't want to import bee problems into Hongkong in terms of mites (many kinds), Africanized bees, nosema, EFB & AFB, etc. I better now stop before I inadvertently start another on line debate. Just email me for any additional info you might need. Joel Feliciano Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Landline & Telefax: (063) 046-865-0018 Cellphone & Cellfax: IDD:(063)-912-318-7517 DDD: 0912-318-7517 Snail Mail to: P. O. Box #1, 4118 Silang, Cavite, Philippines Home Apiary: ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS #8 ILOG MARIA KM. 47, AGUINALDO HIGHWAY LALAAN 1, SILANG, CAVITE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:36:21 -0400 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: on trip in Chile Subject: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- We*** have a claim We (not only us, but also the well established Honey investigative Institute in Bermen, Germany has confirmed it) have the purest honey ever seen. The honey will be used for making band-aids with honey. These band-aids will be used for the treatment of burns. According to the latest results of scientific analysis in The Netherlands, honey is a supreme resource for burns. Water is pulled out the wound, H2O2 is cleaning it, and the honey covers it up. A large pharmaceutical firm in The Netherlands will start to produce band-aids with our honey. That honey really comes from the end of the world, high up in the hills of the Andes in Chile. To get there it takes a two hour drive on unsurfaced roads. The average car visit is 1 in every 2 to 3 weeks. I will also mention that there is no use of antibiotics for AFB treatment, or any indication of the use of any pesticide. AFB itself is unknown. Tarrachemine in honey is excluded. The wind is mostly from the South, so Antarctica is the source. Most of our honey is so pure that all the tests to get the European "EKO" (organic) certification are positive. Email of the firm in THE NETHERLANDS Email of the firm in Chile < Verkruisen@bbs.imaginativa.cl>just installed not frequenty used!!!!!!! greeting all, jant ---- more on Chile on: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/Chili.html -- Rotterdam------ 51.55 N, 4.29 E-------------- San Javier------ 35.36 S, 71.44 W-------Chile- -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:22:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Informed discussion of beekeeping issues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Part of the complex equation of keeping bees and the discussion of issues arising therefrom is that, except in Garth's area, the majority of bees are kept by PEOPLE and the discussion is conducted entirely by them. People can be brilliant, witty, well informed, conventional, concise, inventive, invective, entertaining or patient. They can also be the converse of all these attributes, sometimes appearing to have several of these characters at once, more or less depending how many of the characters the reader has. The common thread is that they all keep and are interested in learning and sharing their knowledge about bees. The only way they can do so is by being themselves (or as much as themselves as they are willing to display). The conversation on the list ebbs and flows like any other conversation. There are high spots and boring bits, whirlpools and eddies, deeps, shallows and rapids, and in the stream are people who make headway against the flow, those who go with the tide and those who are soon out of their depth. They all deserve the respect of being read, even when they are wrong or, worse, boring. Most people can heed Andy's oft expressed warning that opinions are not necessarily facts. As a person who knows nothing about anything I appreciate the opportunity this list offers to read the words of and question those who know so much more, even though I may display my ignorance in doing so. My plea is that the proprietorial hand on the tiller of this vessel be a light as possible and if absolutely necessary regulate by length rather than content. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:36:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Mass marking of exiting foragers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A short while ago, as I recall, someone requested input on how bees from a colony could be mass marked to determine where they might forage. At the time, I could not recall. I just ran across the publication I had in mind, as follows: 1991. Boylan-Pett, Walter L., Roger A. Hoopingarner, and Donald C. Ramsdell. "A self-marking system to determine foraging populations of honey bees ..." BEE SCIENCE. 1:199-202. Those researchers used Day-Glo fluorescent pigment in automatic dispensers to mark all incoming and outgoing foragers. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93103 **************************************************************************** * * "Nature only answers rightly when she is rightly questioned." * * Goethe **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:07:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Use of sperm by the queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Is it known how the queen stores the sperm from different drones?. Is the sperm held in the spermatheca such that the sperm from drone A is used, and when completely used up is followed by the sperm from drone B etc. If this be the case then we will get a batch of workers with like characteristics, followed by another batch of workers with like characteristics but possibly different from the earlier batch. On the other hand if the sperm is 'all mixed up' then we can have different types of workers in the hive at the same time. Any comments? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "D. Murrell" Subject: scanning bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit While looking for a stereo microscope, I came across some information that might be of interest. Image scanners can be used to acceptably magnify anything placed on the scanning surface and they usually have a good depth of field. Acceptable magnification for my 600 dpi scanner is about 40x allowing it perform some of the functions (cubital index, damaged varroa, infected trachea??) of a dissecting microscope. Those with newer higher resolution scanners might be able to do much better. When using the scanner set the scanning resolution to the highest non-interpolated value. Best Wishes D. Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:22:36 +0000 Reply-To: alan.riach@which.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Bees in Trees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst reading Bill Bryson's book Made in America , I came across the following quote from the Lewis and Clark expedition of 1804- Clarks journal : "Sunday 25th a fair morning ,river rose 14 Inch last night , the men find numbers of Bee Trees , & take great quantities of honey.........." This was at the start of their journey up the Missouri - By 1804 the new Bee inhabitants of America had obviously long since made their bid for freedom and become well established in the wild. Are there still Bee trees on the Missouri ? Clark goes on to say in his eccentric spelling ".......The musquetors are verry bad this evening " - No change there I suspect. Alan Riach ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:05:17 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Boardman Feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A historical question that came up in a recent discussion about how beekeepers continue to invent to satisfy their needs. Who was Boardman of feeder fame? Thanks in advance for satisfying our curiosity. Larry Krengel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello Inventors, Much interest was shown in the Apidictor a while back. = I have just been advised that the story and theory behind it has just been published as a 16 page A4 format booklet price =A31.50 post free in the U= K. = It did not succeed at the time. With present day electronics a clever person might improve on it greatly and make a success of it. It is available from Northern Bee Books, Scout Bottom Farm, Mytholmroyd,= Hebden Bridge,West Yorkshire HX7 5JS E-Mail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:41:03 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: varroa:vrulence&tolerance/tektran thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >DNA EVIDENCE OF THE ORIGIN OF 'VARROA' JACOBSONI OUDEMANS IN THE >AMERICAS > >Author(s): >DE GUZMAN LILIA I >RINDERER THOMAS E >STELZER JOHN A > >established that mites from the United States were genetically the same >as those mites from eastern Russia and Europe, and not South American >mites .....These genetic differences may correlate with the varied >levels of virulence of 'varroa' mites on their bee hosts. If Africanised honey bees migrating to N. America bring with them the less virulent strains of varroa found in S. America, then studies claiming to show resistance of honeybees to varroa will need to identify to type of varroa . Perhaps we shouldn't get too enthusiastic about claims of resistance which are not accompanied by info on the mites themselves. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:25:21 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Myrtle oil versus classical smoking. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olda Vancata kindly gave a long list of components identified in Myrtle oil. All those chemical names are "natural", so they must be good for bees, mustn't they? Or is there some magic ingredient not yet identified which makes them all OK? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:15:33 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 13 Feb 1999 to 14 Feb 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Speight writes >>I would appreciate a world -wide view on these OSR/Canola matters. >> >How important is the honeybee for pollination/increase in yield of oil.? I understand that adequate bee pollination reduces the spread in maturity of the OSR seeds, i.e. pollination of the crop takes place over a shorter period of time. This increases the effective yield by reducing losses of over-mature seed dropping to the ground and under-mature seed having a low oil content. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:32:49 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Use of sperm by the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett asks: >Is it known how the queen stores the sperm from different drones?. I came across a report of a talk to the Cambridgeshire BKA (U.K.) given by a Prof. Beaumont, entitled "DNA Fingerprinting of Bees". quote:- In a mated queen's mature colony: 1. The workers, on average, came from 10 different drones. 2. There were roughly equal numbers of workers produced from the 10 drones, so the queen stores the sperm but uses it equally, but randomly. 3. Since each worker will have obtained a random half of the queens chromosomes, all of those which came from any one of the ten drones will be threequarters related to each other (all chromosomes from one drone are the same) and have threequarters of their characteristics alike. On average, they will only be one quarter related to 90% of all other workers in the same colony, which came from a different drone parent. So the workers have an enormous amount of variation in their characteristics. 4. When a swarm occurs, the workers did not divide randomly: they divided very much according to their drone parents, the swarm consisting very largely of workers from only 3 or 4 of the drones. End quote I find point 4 very intriguing. I will try to find out more about Prof. Beaumont's work, with references in line with Aaron's request to base discussion on verifiable facts. John Burgess, Editor of Gwenynwyr Cymru, The Welsh Beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:39:53 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wolfgang_P=F6hlmann?= Subject: Re: foundation equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT With the help of a friend I have finished to translate the description of a selfmade foundation mould in english. Also I started translating a page about wax processing. All interested people can find it on the english part of my homepage. Wolfgang Wolfgang Poehlmann, Hobby Beekeeper in South Germany Email: wolfgang.poehlmann@t-online.de homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/wolfgang.poehlmann/imkerei.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:39:40 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wolfgang_P=F6hlmann?= Subject: selfmade beekeeping gadgets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have not only fun with keeping the bees, but also with makeing useful (some days ago we had a discussion on useless gadgets) gadgets for beekeeping. I think it does not make sense to make every hive tool or smoker your self, but some gadgets would be useful, at least for the smaller beekeepers. May be there are some beekeepers on the list that also made some things for beekeeping their self. I would be interested to read what you have done and how well it worked for you. Wolfgang Wolfgang Poehlmann, Hobby Beekeeper in South Germany Email: wolfgang.poehlmann@t-online.de homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/wolfgang.poehlmann/imkerei.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: selfmade beekeeping gadgets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made a simple swarm catcher from two poles and a plastic trash bag. I needed to get a swarm off the trunk of a tree. It was my first swarm. Took the bag- clear plastic- and attached it to the two poles making a square opening when you held the poles parallel to each other. Put the far end of the square opening against the tree trunk, below the swarm and worked it up the trunk so the bees were in the bag. Closed the bag by bringing the poles together and twisting them. Put the swarm in the tunk of my car, drove five minutes to home and emptied the swarm in a hive box by putting the poles on the box, opening the bag and lifting both poles. The device won first prize for gadgets at the 1993 EAS meeting. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:01:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Butcher Organization: Dundee University Subject: re. sperm storage and multiple matings In-Reply-To: > >Is it known how the queen stores the sperm from different drones?. Essentially no, and this needs further research to clarify it, but it is likely to be random mixing in the spermatheca (her sperm storage organ). The queen will mate with some 17-34 drones per mating flight (gary 1963; Adams et al. 1977) and may take up to 5 mating flights (Roberts 1944; Gary 1971). The level of sperm she acrues is likely to be excess of her needs for worker production (fertilised eggs) over the year [A. mellifersa sperm is long lived..over two years viability in the queen spermatheca]. Indeed she is often seen to exude sperm after the/ each mating flight (e.g. Woyke 1960; Rattner et al. 1973). This later point suggests sperm mixing in her spermatheca and so it simplistically would be expected that all drones will have a random chance of parternity...... However, it is not certain that this has to be or indeed is the case. Firstly different drones may allocate different amounts of sperm, or different proportions of sperm (fertilising versus non-fertilising but defending sperm; known as pyrene and apyrene) to the queen and so would not have equal paternity chances under a random mixing model. Secondly, there may be sperm competiition between the sperm of different drones and consequently different drones would have different probabilities of paternity. Thirdly, first male mating may place the sperm so far up the spermatheca that it is both mixed with sperm from subsequent matings less as it is not displaced as much, and / or it is exuded less compared to say the last drone's contribution. Thios would bais the queens allocation more to the first male she mated with. Lastly, it is not impossible that the female may somehow discriminate against sperm from some males(but there is no evidence for this in Hymenoptera (bees, ants wasps and sawflies) let alone honey bees and is not viewed as that likely as it is more likely she would evolve discrimination against copulation with the "inferior" drone than to select against his sperm usage after multiple mating. Genetic studies of the queens progeny using minisatellite dna fingerprinting, as John Burgess has pointed out , and more recently using microsatellite analysis (a more sensitive form of genetic dna fingerprinting), has confirmed that the fertilised eggs (workers) are derived from at least 10-17different drones (e.g. Adams et al. 1997; Estoup et al. 1994) so late drones do still get paternity. They do not however address the above points. That is sperm may not be randomly mixed etc., and this interesting question awaits resolving. For example is the first male sperm used (mainly) first and then subsequent drones sperm used after this has been exhausted? If so, it would depend upon the colony size (number of fertilised eggs laid) as to how much paternity late mating drones recieved, for example. This requires a temporal analysis of the queens diploid progeny (workers) after her mating flights over the whole year, as opposed to the studies to date on the whole colony at a single time point. By the way, any thoughts on why queens are so polyandrous (multiply mate so many times) if she isnt sperm limited and discards a large proportion of the acquired sperm (remember mating has both an energetic cost, increased vulnerability to predators and risk of sexually transmitted deseases and so is a risky buisness)? Ok because honey bees have complimentary sex determination (Inbrreding leads to up to 50% of the workers actually developing as sterile diploid MALES and not females (workers) the queen , assuming she cannot discriminate against sex-allele related males and avoid mating with them, will need to multiply mate to sample the genetic pool and reduce the number of sex-allele related sperm she acquires on average (OK diploid males are killed in the cells, but this translates as a 50% sterile queen, prevent rapid colony growth and challenging the viability of the hive to survive). However, theoretical analysis predicts that to minimise the cost of sex alle related matings, assuming all sex alleles are at equal frequency in the population, she will only need to mate with 5-7 drones (Page 1980; Ratnieks 1990) . Therefore why the excess, that is 17-37 drone copulations per mating flight and up to 5 mating flights? Cheers Rob Robert Butcher, Evolutionary and Ecological Entomology Unit, Department of Biological Sciences, Dundee University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Tayside, Scotland, UK. Work Phone:- 01382-344291 (Office), 01382-344756 (Lab). Fax:- 01382-344864 e-mail:- r.d.j.butcher@dundee.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:02:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Follow UP on Killer Ants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We left our Texas beekeeper stuck between California and Arizona, back and forth for a week. At last Arizona allowed the bees to be transferred to a closed van for the trip back to Texas. They made it but 100% were dead. Another Texas beekeeper who had pressured washed every pallet as they were loaded got pass the Arizona station, no problem, but because it was Sunday no one at the California boarder station could pass the load. And because it was a long weekend no one could check the bees until Tuesday AM. Guess the Arizona inspectors had nothing to do so they came by and checked them again. This time they found three kinds of ants including a red one and quarantined them from going back through Arizona. Tuesday California checked the bees and passed them.. They were again inspected as unloaded, nothing. Of course 50% of all the bees were dead and they are still dyeing. What one beekeeper said I can't print but he has moved his last hive to California, which he claims did a un natural sexual act on him and his bees costing him more then $75k. Chow, Andy- (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:43:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Johnson Subject: bees and marshmallows MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was rereading some of my old issues of American Bee Journal. In the March 1997 issue in the column, "The Classroom" written by Jerry Hayes, there is a suggestion to try feeding marshmallows to bees. In the May issue of that year a couple of beekeepers respond that they had tried feeding marshmallows to bees. One writer said, "Even on chilly days, the bees continued to eat away at the marshmallows. After observing the bees for several days, I am convinced that this is definitely a better way to feed a hive during the winter." Does anybody know of any harmful effects of feeding marshmallows to bees? The package I have in front of me lists the ingredients as follows: corn syrup, sugar, corn starch, water, gelatin, artificial flavor. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 06:44:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Apidictor 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Re my Apidictor message of yesterday. I see that my attempt to write the= price of the booklet in figures has become garbled. I'll stick to words this time. The price is one and a half English pounds, one pound and fif= ty pence. At current exchange rates that is approximately two dollars forty= cents U.S. and three fifty five Canadian. The whole message has come back to me in a very mixed up state, no proper= word wrap and so on, most unsatisfactory. Has anyone any suggestions as = to where the fault lies? Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:11:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Queen Introduction Cage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All First I would like to express my sincere appreciation to all those who replied to my question on how sperm is stored by the queen. I have just received the 1999 Better Bee catalog from the USA wherein I note that they advertise a Queen Introduction Cage. This is quite a large cage which is big enough to allow the queen to start laying before she is released. The product description says among other things: 'The queen cage has legs that anchor it to a drawn comb. The queen and her attendants are released into it but they cannot be reached by the workers in the colony you are re queening. When you observe that she is laying in the cells inside the cage, she can be united with the new hive and her acceptance is almost guaranteed' I have two questions on this product. 1. I read in several treatises on queen introduction that under no circumstances should the attendant workers be put into a Queen Introduction Cage with the queen, lest they fight with the hive workers in an attempt to defend their queen and end up getting her killed. Why is this dictum not being observed here?. 2. Such treatises also advise the beekeeper to leave a colony into which a queen is being introduced severely alone, for about 6 days. Would not the intrusion caused by checking on the queen laying cause the bees to react badly towards her?. Before I risk some valuable queens, (costing the equivalent of US$21.00 each in this country), this year with this product, I would like to hear if anybody has any experience of such a device or can comment on putting attendant workers into queen introduction cages. Many thanks for any assistance. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:11:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bees and marshmallows MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, For a winter feed, my guess is that it would be ok for the south but bad for the north mainly because of the starch. It is another one of those solids that do not do the bee very much good over a long winter with minimal voiding possibilities. Starch is one of the strikes against confectioners sugar as a winter feed. But if they can get rid of it, it seems it would do minimal harm. The question I would have is if the bees are actually eating it or getting rid of it. Also, what about the cost of marshmallows compared to feeding sugar syrup. It seems you are paying a lot more for minor convienience. I'll stick with the white death - a term freely describing either white sugar or white bread. At the present time, bread is not recommended for winter feeding. :) Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Bill Johnson wrote: > > I was rereading some of my old issues of American Bee Journal. In the > March 1997 issue in the column, "The Classroom" written by Jerry Hayes, > there is a suggestion to try feeding marshmallows to bees. ....the ingredients as follows: corn syrup, sugar, corn starch, > water, gelatin, artificial flavor. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:09:21 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Queen Introduction Cage In-Reply-To: <15502537005685@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ...This is quite a large cage which is big enough to allow the queen to > start laying before she is released....When you observe that she is > laying in the cells inside the cage, she can be united with the new > hive and her acceptance is almost guaranteed' ... I read ...that > under no circumstances should the attendant workers be put into a Queen > Introduction Cage with the queen, Well, queen introduction is one of those things. One day you can just throw a queen into a hive without ceremony and she will be accepted, and another day, you can do anything you want and find introduction iffy. This is one of those things that are obvious to an old beekeeper and a mystery to beginners. That reminds me, haven't heard from G.I. lately. Not like him to bee so quiet... There are many things to consider in handling queens and introducing them to stranger bees. I recall David and Dean both had comments that were illuminating some time back, talking about banking queens. Search for the word 'introduction' at Nick's usual site (now accessible from my home page & also see my signature below). In this case, I imagine you are talking about a push-in cage. This is the Cadillac of queen introduction machines, second in reliability only to introducing queens into small nucs of emerging bees (a slow process). Most push-in cages have a candy tunnel which you can fill with granulated honey, miniature mashmallows, or queen candy to allow the bees to eventually release her. As for the attendants, most people release them when convenient, by putting the queen shipping cage into a large clear plastic bag and groping around inside or other methods, many of which result in at least temporary loss of the queen and much rushing around and worrying. Personally, I am pretty careful to ensure that the bees want a new queen or at least are in good humour before introduction, and have left the attendants in or removed them as it suited me, and never noticed much differerence in results. I always feed sugar syrup or corn syrup liberally before and during the introduction period (sorry, I know better now, but just can't help myself). > Such treatises also advise the beekeeper to leave a colony into which a > queen is being introduced severely alone, for about 6 days. Would not the > intrusion caused by checking on the queen laying cause the bees to react > badly towards her?. Well, we disturb the bees when we wish and have never noticed a problem, but do try to observe some grace period for the queen introduction out of respect to the 'experts' (who mostly spend more time with paper than bees). But also remember we are tuned to the bees to the extent that we probably never even think of doing things a non-beekeeper or beginner would do in normal course of learning. we are also in an area where bees tend to be pretty happy most of the time. Allen --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:58:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: bees and marshmallows Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Marshmallows- the little ones make a good plug for reusing those queen cages made from wood with 3 holes. As a hobbiest and after a few bad experiances I now cage the queens to keep them from being flattened if I have to move a hive more than a few feet. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:04:15 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Re: Queen Introduction Cage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Tom, Queen introduction is a subject near and dear to my heart, mainly because I had a lot of trouble with supersedure after introducing a new queen. Here is the main thrust of what I learned. Fall requeening and Spring requeening are very different. Almost anything goes in the Spring, but Fall requeening requires attention to detail and leaving no stone unturned in the introduction process. Requeening a small colony is much easier than a large one, so re queen using an nuc. If you buy a new queen in the fall leave her in the cage in the nuc for a while, three days minimum. Several means have been successfully used to release her. 1. Tie a strong enough thread or string around the cork and replace it into the candy end of the cage. Run the string out the top of the hive and let it sit there for 2 days, then pull the string, thus removing the cork. ( The cage must be jammed between the frames to hold it fast, of course.) The new queen can now be freed in the nuc by the bees eating out the candy.In a week the queen should be laying. 2. 15 days after putting the new queen into the nuc, re-cage her, keeping her in the nuc. Then, on the day of introducing the new queen to the (to be re-queened colony), 3. Capture the old queen in the hive that you have chosen to re queen and remove her, keeping her alive until the entire process is complete. 4. Alow this colony to remain queenless for 2 days. 5. Intorduce the entire nuc to the colony in question,via the newspaper method. You have inserted the cork into the nucs queen cage and tied a thread around it as before. 6. In 2 days pull the tread attached to the cork, the bees eat out the candy that you have so thoughtfully relapsed into the hole after re-caging the new queen in the nuc. 7. When the bees are done reading the newspaper, you are done. 8. If you are going to medicate with apistan at this time of year, wait a couple of weeks to get the ole girl well established. This is a lot of trouble to go to as I'm sure you can see. There are advantages to fall requeening. The weather is better than in the spring, queens are more likely to be fully matted. You will have a young, vibrant, experienced, over wintered,well fed,unstressed queen in the spring. de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 02/21/99 13:04:15 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:49:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Queen cage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett comments on Betterbee's new queen cage and asks about the catalog description on its use. Specifically, he is interested in whether the queen should be caged with or without the attendants she was shipped with. I happen to live only 40 miles (64 km) from Betterbee and have seen this new cage. It appears to be excellent as it can be placed firmly (because of the "legs") over a large area of emerging brood and because it is designed to be sufficiently "open" so that the bees in the hive can sense the queen pheromone, and feed her, yet not so open that they can ball her or attack her feet. In my opinion, it is not very important that she can lay eggs within the cage, although she can certainly do that. It is most important that the cage be placed over emerging brood so that a reasonably large number of young bees have her pheromone and freely accept her. This seems to help a great deal in the final acceptance when she is released from the cage. This cage, made from plastic, is no more than an improved version of a woven wire cage that beekeepers (in the US, at least) have been making themselves for decades. Tom correctly relates that many beekeeping books say that it is important to release the worker bees from the cage the queen is shipped in, before introducing her into the hive. I am of the opinion that that advice is one of those points that was stated by someone at one time, and has since been repeated without further investigation. I have seen a few references stating "it makes no difference to queen acceptance whether or not the workers are released prior to introduction." I have certainly introduced many many queens both ways. IMHO, it makes absolutely no difference whether the workers are released separately and this is especially true if an introduction cage such as described by Tom is used. I believe this cage is about 4 inches (10 cm) on a side. If placed over emerging brood, in a couple of hours there will be far more of the hive's bees in the cage than the workers shipped with the queen. The emerging bees will not fight with the workers shipped as they are too young, and the workers shipped will not fight with the emerging bees as they are too disoriented. The final advantage of this type of queen cage is that the recommended 6 day period of "leave alone" does not apply as the queen will have 200+ workers with her when all the brood has emerged. You could easily, and without a worry, release her after 48 hours providing that 90% or more of brood has emerged. Lloyd Email LloydSpear@msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds(tm), the finest in comb honey production. http://www.rossrounds.com\ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:47:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Queen cage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/21/99 4:30:51 PM EST, LloydSpear@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: > > Tom correctly relates that many beekeeping books say that it is important to > release the worker bees from the cage the queen is shipped in, before > introducing her into the hive. I am of the opinion that that advice is one > of those points that was stated by someone at one time, and has since been > repeated without further investigation. > Please note I am a different Tom than the one quoted above. My experience is that it makes no difference whether you release the attendants or not but I only have 30 colonies and someone with 3000 may be able to determine a difference. One thing is important if you don't release the attendants make sure the hole in the queen cage is pointed up. That way a dead attendant cannot block her exit. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:49:01 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Gregoire Subject: Re: Queen Introduction Cage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Having just awakened from a lovely afternoon snooze, I read my post and saw a glaring gap in the form of a large assumption on my part. That is of course that this requeening maneuver be done during a nectar flow. The ragweed flow,( mistakenly called goldenrod in these parts), is a strong flow that the bees just love to work the daylights out of. This is a good time to re queen while alowing the bees to stock up for winter. Grist Mill Apiary de AA1IK, Ernie Gregoire R.R. 1, Box 221, South Rd. Canaan, NH. 03741 USA 43.6170 N, X 72.0225 W E-mail address: gregoire@endor.com ------------------------------------- 02/21/99 15:49:01