From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:19 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27335 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11117 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11117@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:14 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9906E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 85686 Lines: 1807 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:14:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cindy Shortell Subject: NEW BEEKEEPER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a very new beekeeper (probably considered a bee haver :-) by most at this time) I started my hives this spring. They seem to be doing well, lots of eggws and brood in a good pattern. My question is, if I want to increase my hives from 2 to 4 by spitting them can I do this in the fall or should this only be done in the spring? Our wintering in upstate NY are brutal frequently -30-40. Would they be strong enough to hold their own if I spit them. Also, should I purchase a queen? if not how do I go about using my own stock? Thank-you for your patience with a rookie, Cindy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:01:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Khalil Amro Subject: Re: bees do not take syrup feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear lister, my colonies, even the vigourous hives, dont take feeding of suger syrup after a control treatment of AFB by Oxytetracycline. is anybody on the list has the same experiance & is oxytetracycline has an effect on feeding uptake. what is the reason that make honeybees ignore the feeding ( we are now in summer season, after the hiney harvesting ) thanks in advance yours truly, Khalil Amer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:27:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dave Jurgens (D & L Service)" Subject: Re: Honey Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for a wax press for my 500+ manitoba appries.. Can anyone help me... Dave _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ D & L Computer Service Dave Jurgens ,Brandon Manitoba 1-204-727-5310 http://home.westman.wave.ca/~dl-cs/ dl-cs@westman.wave.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:40:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "The Burlingames(" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 27 Jun 1999 to 28 Jun 1999 (#1999-95) HI Bee Friends, We are new beekeepers...having had a swarm come and adopt us last year..which died due to our ignorance this spring. We bought new bees this spring and now have three hives, having caught a swarm that came from somewhere. We live in SW Washington in rural Lewis County. We are wondering if there are any other beekeepers on the List in this area or anyone knows of any. We have two brood boxes on each hive and have a third super on one and a forth and fifth on two others, with the bees adding a super as soon as the bees start to work in a super.So far they seem to be filling the bottom supers very well. At what point do we remove the filled supers? Another question: I see in the supply catalog that we get that there are extractor for the Pierco foundations that are listed separately. Do the plastic foundations need to be handled differently when the honey is extracted than the wooden frames and duragilt or other prewired foundations? We don't have an extractor and are wondering what suggestions some of you might have for new beekeepers like us who already have found this is a more expensive "hobby" than we anticipated. For small beekeepers are there any hand made extractor plans that are efficient? I have learned many things from this list and thank you all for your contributions. Another.question, I notice that since I put the Pierco foundations in the hives, that I have what sounds like the bees "running" over the foundations which they don't seem to do on the wooden frames and duragilt or other foundation that I use. They do seem to have begun to build in one of the hives on the Pierco. One last question....in the Pacific NW...what is the recommend amount of honey left for the bees for the winter? Thanks, Meri Burlingame Meri Burlingame: Moderator The Apostolic Prophetic List ap@myhome.net The Apostolic Prophetic Resource Page http://landru.myhome.net/cmjhburl/Resource.html The Handmaiden Ministry: Clothing the Bride ap@myhome.net available for speaking engagements Jennifer's Web site for Teens http://landru.myhome.net/cmjhburl/index.html. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:11:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: Fume Boards In-Reply-To: BOGANSRJ@APCI.COM's message of Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:01:00 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Ron Boganski gave some very good tips on useing fume boards. I agree very much with all those tips. If you use a blower you have to pick up the supers two times and I sure do not like that. We use three boards and have one hive open that does not have a board on it all the time and play a game of round robin with our boards. We do not put the lids back on the hives until we have pull all the honey. I think it allows for better ventalation and it helps keep down robbing. Just a few other tips that you might think about, Ron gave most of them very good. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:11:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NEW BEEKEEPER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/29/99 7:01:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Msgrowit@AOL.COM writes: > My question is, if I want to increase > my hives from 2 to 4 by spitting them can I do this in the fall or should > this only be done in the spring? Our wintering in upstate NY are brutal > frequently -30-40. Would they be strong enough to hold their own if I spit > them. No. Sometimes we make fall splits in the south. But even here, it is a gamble, done only if you are willing to take the risk. Nucs can be wintered here on a screen on top of a strong hive. I also have placed two nuc boxes adjacent (touching) and with entrances facing opposite. You find the cluster always on the warm side of the nuc in cold weather. Small clusters cannot hold heat as well as they should, and they easily get separated from their food supply. We only have an occasional couple of cold days. In the north, with continuous winter cold, you are taking on a challenge only a very experienced beekeeper could handle, and they probably wouldn't. >Also, should I purchase a queen? if not how do I go about using my own > stock? If you are willing to give up the rest of the honeyflow, there's still plenty of time to make splits in the north. I'd probably buy queens, unless I had a good line that I'd developed over several years. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:15:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: bees do not take syrup feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/29/99 7:19:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, k.a.mer@FIRSTNET.COM.JO writes: > my colonies, even the vigourous hives, dont take feeding of suger syrup > after a control treatment of AFB by Oxytetracycline. is anybody on the list > has the same experiance & is oxytetracycline has an effect on feeding > uptake. I doubt it. I've found three reasons bees won't take feed: 1. There's a flow going on. 2. It's too hot. 3. The bees are sick. In the height of the tracheal mite era, lots of colonies wouldn't touch syrup. Your mileage may vary..... Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:26:20 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: splits Comments: To: Cindy Shortell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My question is, if I want to increase my hives from 2 to 4 by spitting them can I do this in the fall Cindy - I like your enthusiasm. Just a couple of months into bees and you want to double your holdings! But it is not wise to make splits now. I live in northern Illinois and we usually think we are pushing our luck if we split them after the first of June. I would expect this to be good advise for your area. The only time I would start a new colony now is if I pick up a swarm. In that case there is no choice, and swarms are very aggressive hive builders. I guess mother nature gives them the idea they should work extra hard. I would think you should ask your local beekeepers when they make their splits. I would suspect it would be in middle or late April. The best thing you can do now is to manage your two well and have strong colonies going into the winter. If they look good in March, order a couple of new queens for delivery when you want to make your splits. You will have four going colonies for Y2K. Don't be surpassed if you get a variety of opinions on your question. One of the few things beekeepers agree on is that they disagree on most everything - still the bees survive. If you have not read it yet, I suggest the Joys of Beekeeping by a fellow New Yorker, Richard Taylor. It doesn't help much with the science of beekeeping, but it does help to understand the aura of beekeeping. Welcome to the ranks. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:14:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NEW BEEKEEPER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even here in CT by the end of June I am looking to combine my weaker colonies and requeen a bit. Were I to make a split it would be more on the order of 5 hives made into 6 and then only if I had some spare drawn foundation. Dandylion bloom through apple is a good time to make splits here in the Northeast because they can build up unmolested by robbers during clover through privet. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:22:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199906291228.IAA12661@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... it is not wise to make splits now. I live > in northern Illinois and we usually think we are pushing our luck if we > split them after the first of June. I would expect this to be good > advise for your area. Well, I have to disagree and in fact I'll be making splits this weekend in upstate NY (Saratoga region). There is still ample time for splits in this area to build up sufficiently to overwinter on their own, and if they don't build up as I anticipate, the splits can be successfully overwintered over a Snelgrove board atop established hives. Admittedly, the Snelgrove wintering may be an advanced method for a first year beekeeper. In Vermont (where winters can be even more severe than upstate New York), Kirk Webster is building a successful bee breeding program making MANY splits at this time of year which he overwinters as 4 frame nucleus colonies. I've had mixed results overwintering these small nucleus colonies, but Kirk's been at it longer than I. Part of his strategy is to use the harsh winters to cull weak stock. There was a lot of discussion on BEE-L starting around this time last year about spring vs fall splits. Last year I was in the spring only camp, but after some success with fall splits last year I can be found more often hob nobbing at the fall split campfire. Question is, when does fall start? Well, based on mixed results with small samples I'd say your chances for success are proportional to how early you set up your splits, provided you don't set them up too early. Splits set up with queen cells in June can build up nicely and overwinter well. Splits set up in June with mated queens build up too quickly and are likely to swarm prior to winter in which case I suspect the swarm fails and I'm sure the split fails (been there, done that). There are a lot of variables in picking a cut off date for making splits: first and obviously, where are you located? Then, your queen (cell or mated queen). Timing; how close to September 1? That's the absolute cut off date I'd use in my neck of the woods, depending on how big I make my split and what I put into it (eggs, sealed brood, stores, how many of each and how many bees and of what age)? Is your split to stand alone or atop an established hive? And then there are the unknown variables: will your queen cell mate successfully? Will your introduced queen be accepted? How severe will be your up coming winter? Got mites? Seems like there are more questions than answers. This is one of those issues where it's good to get advice, better to get advice from a neighboring beekeeper (a plug for joining a local beekeeping association), but you'll never do better or learn more than you will by using that advice to prepare for your lessons from the school of hard knocks. Cindy, perhaps you might experiment with one of your hives and leave the other alone. Following such a strategy, it is possible to achieve your goal of 4 hives by next spring with the two you have now. Remember, it's better to go slowly and succeed than quickly and fail. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:42:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George C Subject: Swarm problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all: On 6/13/99 I inspected a strong hive and found what I believed were swarm cells. They were on the bottoms of frames but there were also some in the middles of combs. I did not see the queen nor do I recall verifying that there were any new eggs. I destroyed all queen cells (I think), and I shook all the bees on the ground in front of the hive(a swarm stopping I read about years ago). On 6/19/99 I rechecked this hive and found no new brood and no queen cells. The bees were filling all the brood comb with honey. I assumed at this this point the I had misjudged the week prior when I thought they were preparing to swarm. I now thought that they were superceding the queen and I had destroyed their new queen cells. So I gave them a frame of eggs and young brood from another colony. On 6/26/99 I went out to check them and found a swarm on the ground about 10 feet in front of this colony. (I think they had tried cluster on some tall grass which then collapsed under the weight) I'm sure this swarm came from the colony in question as their dark coloring matched those of that colony and the only other one nearby are very light colored. I placed a hive on the ground in front of the swarm, stirred them up with the smoker and they went in. (Sure beats catching a swarm 20 feet up in a tree). I'm now trying to figure out where I misjudged what they were doing. If they were not trying to swarm when I first found queen cells, why did they do it now that they are apparently queenless? Is it possible that they swarmed with a virgin queen from a queen cell that I missed destroying? I did not see a queen in the swarm but did not spend time looking. Should I try to reunite them? I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions! Thanks, George ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: eparker Subject: Split Strength MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello friends, Building on the split discussion my question is, how long should it take for a hive to build a population after=20 making a split? I can think of many variables such as queen vigor, time=20 of year, weather conditions etc. but the split I did on April 29 seems to be growing very slow. Because I'm a new beekeeper I don't have any "drawn" comb (except in my other hive) so they have been faced with a lot of work. Could the queen not have enough drawn cells to lay in? I find it hard to tell because I still have trouble seeing "eggs". I have good eyesight and hold the=20 frame to the sun, but I'm doing something wrong. I planned to swap positions between the two hives but every chance I have it's raining (like it is now). This leads to the only problem I'm aware of in the hive. It has chalkbrood. I find a few (2-4) "mummies" on every visit. I have been told it should clear-up on it's own, but this is our humid/rainy season. Being a fungus I'm sure this isn't helping. As always, any suggestions are appriciated. Attn: Bud, The generosity of your offer is incredible! I must be "living right" to have the good fortune of you as a neighbor. But I think at this point that would be a bigger step than I should take. I'm all for "digging in" but think a little more experience is=20 needed. If you ever want a "tag-along" please contact me! I would do all I can to help, (including, staying out of the way) and learning from someone with your experience would be an treat. Feel free to contact me privately. Oh-yea, lunch is on me. Thanks, Ed Parker eparker@atlantic.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:25:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Honey In-Reply-To: <199906281725.NAA23456@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Thom Bradley recently quoted an article on Bio-Engineered Honey from FOX >News online. >The URL to that article is http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/062499/nectar.sml New Scientist Magazine has a web page of its own at http://www.newscientist.com/ There's a pick off the home page to the article in question. It offers a few more paragraphs of detail. Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:28:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Wholesale Price for Ross Rounds? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The honey prices tracked in Bee Culture tell me that a round comb should sell for $3.50-$4.00 at retail in my area. I'd be grateful for any thoughts about what that translates to in terms of a wholesale rate. In other words, if I'm selling to a health food store or vegetable stand taht will be putting a $3.89 retail price on the product, what should I charge them? Thanks Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:01:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Flanders Subject: Licking Supers Dry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the topic of harvesting wax, Aaron Morris wrote on 3/30/99: "Harvest time gives honey, wet supers get licked dry by the bees. Then the honeycomb can be scraped down to the plastic foundation..." Mr. Morris, I was re-reading your saved message this morning and realized I didn't fully understand what you had written. When you give the supers back to the bees to "lick dry," are you leaving the frames in the supers or setting them out separately? Back on the hives, or set in front? Do you try to give them back the same colonies, or if that doesn't make a difference, doesn't that encourage robbing? The nicest thing about being a beginner is that one never runs out of questions... --Rog Flanders, Nemaha County, Nebraska, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:06:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cindy-splitting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Cindy, You didn't say where you are in NYS, but I principally agree with Aaron that you can do splits anytime between now and September 1. I have been doing splits for year 2000 for the past two weeks and I will continue to do so until at least the beginning of August. The splits I have been making and will make until July 15 are of the "walk-away" type. This means I let them raise their own queen. After July 15 I will either give them a queen cell or a laying queen. (I will only get about 80% good queens from my "walk-away" splits; since you have so few hives, you should consider giving your splits laying queens to get a higher percentage.) These splits consist of 2 frames of sealed brood and eggs, one frame of mostly capped honey and pollen, one frame of foundation and a division board feeder. I put a 1/8th plywood board down the middle of a standard deep, nail another sheet of 1/8" plywood on the bottom of the deep, and drill a 1" hole in the top corner on opposite sides. This hole is the entrance/exit for the bees on each side. When the bees are inside, lay a strip of burlap over the entire top so the bees can't travel from one side to the other by crossing the bars. Use a standard hive cover. Put these two nucs (in one hive body) near your existing hives and stuff the holes full of green grass to prevent robbing until your nucs/splits have had some time to settle down. I believe the race of queen has a lot to do with the success in over-wintering nucs in this climate. Carnolians are very stingy with using winter stores, and I highly recommend you use that race. If you are anywhere Betterbee, he has some good Carnolians now that are just in from California. 518-692-9669. You have to feed these 1:1 sugar syrup to get them to draw out the sheet of foundation. After that you may or may not want to continue to feed, it depends on your fall flow. The objective is to have the frames "plugged-out" come October. Plugged-out means that there is little to no empty cells for the queen to lay eggs in. Treat for Varroa in August/September (one strip, each nuc). In October take the inner and outer covers off one of your strong hives and put the hive body with the two nucs on top. Prop up one side or end of the nucs with stones or wood so there is about a 1/4" air space for ventilation for the bottom hive. The 1/8" plywood has an r-value of less than 1, so plenty of heat from the lower hive will rise and help warm the nucs. Come April 2000 you should have two strong nucs and one strong hive. Put each nuc/split a standard hive with either drawn or undrawn foundation. Feed syrup until all frames are well drawn or dandelions bloom, whichever is later. Watch these nuc/splits carefully and keep adding supers as needed as they will explode in population around the time of dandelion bloom and are likely to swarm if not given enough room. The queens in these nucs will start laying in January/February, and these over-wintered nucs are far superior to either packages or spring nucs. Every year I produce (near Albany, NY) 40-50 over-wintered nucs using these techniques. Moreover, Kirk Webster, mentioned by Aaron, uses much the same technique to annually produce and over-winter several hundred nuc/splits in Central Vermont. Best of luck and please don't hesitate to call or email if you have any questions. Lloyd LloydSpear@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:19:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Wholesale and retail prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg asks "In other words, if I'm selling to a health food store or vegetable stand that will be putting a $3.89 retail price on the product, what should I charge them?" "Traditional" wholesale food prices are 70%-75% of retail. This would translate into $2.70-$2.90 for a wholesale price. However, seasonal and specialty items have higher margins. I know of one instance where a buyer can purchase several thousand Ross Round sections at $1.60-$1.70, but most of the prices I know of are $2.00-$2.25. Lloyd Spear ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:02:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hank Mishima Subject: Re: Cindy-splitting In-Reply-To: Lloyd Spear 's message of Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:06:44 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Lloyd, I would like to try your splitting idea with the extra hive body as a section nuc. How ofen do you have to clean out e dead bees and debris or can the bees do this with through the 1 inch hole. I am a little concerned about the two coloies mixing when and if this is done. Thanks from a first year beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:57:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Wholesale Price for Ross Rounds? In-Reply-To: <199906291528.LAA16165@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... if I'm selling to a health food store or vegetable stand > that will be putting a $3.89 retail price on the product, what should I > charge them? Following a 25% markup rule of thumb, the arithmetic comes out to you should be charging $3.11 - if I could sell wholesale Ross Rounds at that price I wouldn't produce anything else! I sell a dozen Ross Rounds for $27 ($2.25 per) and I'm told by some that I over charge. I know some who sell for FAR less and I admonish them for giving them away! Charge what your customers will pay. If you're too high your customers will find other producers and you'll be stuck with a lot of rounds. Aaron Morris - thinking supply and demand is a tricky game! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:47:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Licking Supers Dry In-Reply-To: <199906291604.MAA17181@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Mr. Morris... First, please, not Mr., anything but that. Aaron is preferred but I'll answer to just about anything you can say if front of children! > are you leaving the frames in the supers or setting them > out separately? Setting them out separately is too much work. I have in the past tried a number of different strategies. I once left the open supers in a bee yard and started one of the worst cases of robbing I ever witnessed, to which I attributed heavier than normal winter losses. By the time the bees were done beating up on each other they were in very poor shape. I have put them back on the hives on top of the inner cover, under the outer cover. This too can get bees excited and hankering to rob, but if equipment is tight enough it doesn't get too severe. And there have been years when the bees started to fill up the empty supers rather than "lick them dry", in which case I moved a few back under the inner cover. An empty super between the inner cover and wet supers has been recommended, but I'm not sure that's necessary. However, stacking the wet supers back on the hives is a lot of work and it's also a lot of work to clear the bees again from the supers, unless you wait for a cold morning when the bees will be clustered in the brood chamber. I think the best strategy I have found is to stack the wet supers in a location far removed from any hives, and far removed from any humans. The bees WILL find them, and the frenzy to lick them clean can get pretty nasty between the bees, but the hives in the apiary remain civil to each other. The feeding frenzy can also be very disconcerting to humans of a non-bee persuasion, so a remote site is highly recommended. > Do you try to give them back the same > colonies, or doesn't that make a difference? Well, one should always be concerned about disease, but I'm usually pretty confident that my hives do not foster such. I know before harvest if any equipment is suspect. If anything, the remote site method should be of more concern in that you can't be sure that the frenzied bees are your own. The safest method is stacking the wet empties atop your own hives (if you have the time and inclination) and ideally the same hive from which you harvested the supers if you can keep them straight. The more hives you have the harder it gets. Finally, the beeswax market may be heading in a direction that you might not consider harvesting your drawn combs, the drawn combs may be worth more than the wax. The largest consumers of beeswax in recent history have been beekeepers. With more and more beekeepers switching to plastic foundation there is likely to be a lot of unsold wax out there that can be had for a very reasonable price. You might consider buying your buddy's wax rather than harvesting your own (that's two plugs for joining local beekeeping associations in one day). On top of that, with the current fluvalinate contamination scare another major beeswax consumer (the cosmetics industry) is also way down in consumption. One might speculate that the bottom will drop out on the beeswax market. Aaron Morris - Still thinking supply and demand is a tricky game! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:00:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: Re: Wholesale Price for Ross Rounds? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > ... if I'm selling to a health food store or vegetable stand > that will be putting a $3.89 retail price on the product, what should = I > charge them? Interesting...no one has mentioned cost. How can you sell it for a = price, any price, before you consider cost? That, and that alone is the = deciding factor. If you can't sell it for a price that covers not only = cost, but the profit needed to continue making the product you might as = well give it away to start with. The question then, what is the cost?=20 Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine > ... if I'm selling to a health food store or vegetable stand > that will be putting a $3.89 retail price on the product, what should = I > charge them? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:03:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Seeing Bee Eggs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed Parker wrote: I still have trouble seeing "eggs". I have good eyesight and hold the frame to the sun, but I'm doing something wrong. ********************* You're not doing anything wrong. Lots of people have trouble seeing eggs. Try perching on your nose a pair of reading or magnifying glasses to see the eggs. Most of the time, the beekeeper will see larvae in the brood nest area of the comb without having to look for eggs. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:45:03 -0600 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Seeing Bee Eggs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The new black colored foundation sure is a help in reviewing hive conditions. You can see the pattern in seconds even with heavily bee-covered frames. Definately a plus in spying over those small day-old eggs! Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, CO > Ed Parker wrote: > I still have trouble seeing "eggs". I have good eyesight and hold the > frame to the sun, but I'm doing something wrong. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:07:02 -0700 Reply-To: snielsen@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Wholesale Price for Ross Rounds? >> ... if I'm selling to a health food store or vegetable stand >> that will be putting a $3.89 retail price on the product, what should I >> charge them? In my opinion, and practice, one does not ask merchants what they intend to charge for a product, and then attempt to price your offering. You ask them what their mark-up is, and then you tell them that applying that figure to your product will give them a selling price of $ _.__ [insert final figure here]. >Interesting...no one has mentioned cost. How can you sell it for a = >price, any price, before you consider cost? Absolutely correct. We cannot continue to allow merchants to dictate our selling cost. It's a tough line to adopt but the fact is, if merchants are not willing to pay a price reflected in our production costs, we simply must tell them, "Well, sorry, I can't sell it to you for that." I sell honey to retail outlets for $2.50/lb in queenline jars. This is my rock-bottom figure. (I get more than that when I sell direct to the end user.) Applying a 40% mark-up to my $2.50 they should put a ticket price of something like $4.00 on a jar. This is higher than the Sioux honey you can buy at the market, but I don't sell to the market. I make a point of the fact that I am selling local honey in classy packaging. Our label is slick-looking, and all by itself, has pushed other honeys off the shelf. If you are serious about marketing honey, make the package look like something special, and go out there with the confidence that you are selling something special to a privileged market. I was shocked (even appalled) to find that one of my retailers is selling (I said _selling_, not just displaying) my honey for $5.99 a pound. I think they have gone way over the top with it, but their selling price is not really my business. Mine is. I can counsel them that they'll sell more if they come down a notch, but I don't set their policy, and I don't let them set mine. Susan -- Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:31:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Licking Supers Dry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When setting wet supers out for the bees to clean stack them criss cross to provide many entrances for the bees. Five supers high works for me and I put a scrap of plywood under them to colllect the bits of wax the bees drop for rendering down. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:12:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Francois Lariviere Subject: NHB funds clinical studies on impact of honey supplements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit National Honey Board Funds Clinical Studies Assessing the Impact of Honey Supplements on Exercise Performance and Recovery LONGMONT, Colo., June 29 /PRNewswire/ -- The National Honey Board, in cooperation with IMAGINutrition(SM) and MetaResponse Sciences(SM), is funding two clinical trials at the Exercise and Sports Nutrition Laboratory at the University of Memphis to determine if honey really is more than just a sweet treat. "The trials are centering on the value of honey during exercise performance and recovery in endurance and weight training individuals," said Rick Kreider, Ph.D., lead investigator for the honey study. Although often overlooked as a dietary supplement, honey is a naturally occurring combination of various sugars and antioxidants in a gel form. Recently, the consumption of carbohydrates in a gel form has become a popular means for athletes to ingest carbohydrates prior to, during and/or following exercise. In support of the study on honey, numerous clinical trials have indicated that the ingestion of carbohydrates during exercise can enhance exercise performance. The unique carbohydrate profile of honey may favorably alter the way the body burns fuel during exercise. Recent evidence also indicates concurrent carbohydrate and protein ingestion prior to and/or following exercise may reduce exercise-induced muscle protein breakdown and be beneficial for all athletes involved in intense training. A separate trial to be conducted at the University of Memphis will study the effects of honey on hormone metabolism and performance during exercise cycling. "If honey fosters a more favorable hormone profile than typical carbohydrates, this could lead to quicker recuperation after exercise," suggests Dr. Kreider. The National Honey Board, a non-profit institution, is funding a variety of studies exploring the health benefits of honey. SOURCE IMAGINutrition and MetaResponse Sciences CO: National Honey Board; IMAGINutrition and MetaResponse Sciences ST: Colorado IN: FOD MTC SU: 06/29/99 20:56 EDT http://www.prnewswire.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:16:07 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: home sweet home Subject: questions Comments: To: Roger Flanders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger Flanders wrote: The nicest thing about being a beginner is that one never runs out of questions... and there will be questions when you are advanced and there will be questions when you are expert greeting jan -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG GOOR tel: xx.31.(0)547-275788 -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:44:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: NEW BEEKEEPER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, > My question is, if I want to increase > my hives from 2 to 4 by spitting them can I do this in the fall or should > this only be done in the spring? Our wintering in upstate NY are brutal > frequently -30-40. Would they be strong enough to hold their own if I spit > them. > No. Sometimes we make fall splits in the south. But even here, it is a > gamble, done only if you are willing to take the risk. It sounded, from my reading that these folks considered the honey flow over. If there is to be no more harvest there is more than enough time to build up a nuc to a full strength colony, even here in Alaska. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:49:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: C Toombs Subject: Connie's learning curve... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was supposed to be my husbands new hobby but...We purchased a hive in the spring of 1998 and this spring it swarmed twice. That's when I took over. I am in western Arkansas and looking for a mentor. We now have 3 hives and I've been devouring the wonderful information on the list along with every book in the local library on the subject of beekeeping. I'm hoping the feeling of cluelessness will eventually subside. For anyone interested here is the readers digest version of my beekeeping adventure. Hive (A)--> was the first one we started with. It was a single deep body with a short on top. We put on an excluder and short super and unfortunately got tied up with the ranch and neglected it. It issued two swarms this spring and upon inspection of the hive body we discovered in the lower deep body the comb seemed to be melted and misshapen and empty. The bees were occupying the short above. I removed the deep body and put another short on top of the occupied one under the excluder. There was no drawn comb above the excluder. At the time I did not have the parts to make up another deep body. The bees were quickly filling both short boxes and I managed to swap a frame of honey and place it above the excluder before the new hive parts arrived for assembly. By the time I received my deep bodies they had completley filled both short boxes and had started to draw comb in one frame above the excluder. I wasn't sure what to do at this point so I put a newly assembled deep box with a feeder in between the two shorts that had been the main hive body in an uneducated attempt to give the bees more room. I have not done anything to hive except open the top to look in. It seems to be full of very happy bees. There is still no activity above the excluder but I don't expect it with all the new room they received. My question is, how do I manipulate this hive so I can remove the short body from the bottom and get it situated with two deeps instead? Hive (B)--> First swarm from hive (A). This one landed on tall grass in our pasture and we were prepared with a deep hive body all set up to catch them. The catching was easy I placed the box with cover on top propped on some bricks above the grounded swarm. They moved right in and we set up the catch in the yard next to hive (A). This hive seems to be especially docile and can be worked easily. Upon inspection they were drawing comb and tending brood well. I added a second deep body to encourage their growth when they had nearly filled the first box.When they had that one almost full I added a short super to the top. My question is, should I have added an excluder? Hive (C)--> Surprise! We swarmed twice! Less than a week apart. Oh no, no hive bodies on hand. Quick trip to the local bee man(25 miles) and we are set to capture. They were about 20 feet from the source hanging on a limb of a two year old apple tree. I laid the limb on top of the hive body and they were in less than 20 minutes. I added a deep hive body when they seemed to get crowded. More on this hive below... Status as of yesterday...I used the water spray method with great results to open the tops for a quick inspection. Hive (A) seems happy. Still no new activity above the excluder. Much activity at the entrance, heavy bees and pollen. I close it and leave. I say heavy bees because all my hives are up on 12 inch stands I built to keep them from the ants. Heavy bees land like blimps in the wind. Buzz, buzz, buzz, thump. Sometimes they are so heavy they miss. Hive (B) seems happy. Starting to draw comb in new super. Plenty of activity at the entrance. I close it and leave. Hive (C) NO VACANCY sign! Lots of activity. They are completely full! Maybe I learned something because I have 5 supers on hand, just add foundation and go! I put the top back on and leave to get a super ready. When I go back to add the super as soon as I open the cover I get stung on the cheek but I get the stinger out quickly and it doesn't hurt too much. In the mean time I'm spraying water and backing up quickly. Nevertheless one managed to get in my hair and sting my head. OUCH! I rubbed fresh grass on the stings and must have backed far enough away because there was no further pursuit. I guess I put blind faith in what I've read here on the list, upon summoning courage I walked back to the hive, put on the super and close it up without any fuss. I was wearing only summer attire. Next time I'll at least wear a hat . This is the second bee I've had in my hair and it is a chilling experience. Maybe they don't like my shampoo. So where do I go from here? Does anyone know the dates of honey flow for my North West Arkansas area? Is there a nearby member who can advise me directly ? I sure would like someone who has a clue to come look over my bees. Technical questions; What are the nine slot frame hangers used for? Should I have excluders on all my hives? How often should I do a thorough inspection on the hive bodies? Thanks for your interest and support. C. Toombs momzmail@r-v.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:31:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199906291326.JAA13897@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There was a lot of discussion on BEE-L starting around this > time last year > about spring vs fall splits. Last year I was in the spring > only camp, but > after some success with fall splits last year I can be found > more often hob > nobbing at the fall split campfire. The question is what level of risk can you accept, and where do you live. We've had great success with late splits one year, only to suffer severe losses the next. I read somewhere (Speedy?) over the last year about some research that showed that the later a new queen is established, the later the production of 'winter bees' starts. Anyone remember where it was? It has become obvious to me over many years that what works well one year may be a dismal failure the next, or the next. We learned that we have to go with techniques that provide steady, reliable results over time, rather than those that give spectcular increase one year and spectacular losses the next. It's much like investing. Losing your investment is not wise. Better for most to take lower -- but guaranteed and steady -- returns from secure investments. For us, splits made before the end of July are reliable and do as well as the other hives. After that, it gets risky. The reason is weather. Some years we have snow or frost on the 20th of August, others are open until October. We have no certain way of knowing in advance. Early frosts reduce foraging opportunities for the new hive and hamper buildup and preparation for winter. In such years we risk losing not only the splits, but also parent hives. The loss of so many hives is sad, but the resulting cleanup and recovery is also a real burden. We'll stick with spring splits, and go about a month into summer. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:16:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pricing and cost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't resist continuing the thread discussing honey cost and pricing. For many years, and it seems like another life, I worked as chief financial officer for a couple of pretty good size companies (which many of you would know) and have spent a great deal of time concerning the relationships between product costs and selling price. I consider it pretty firmly established that product costs usually have little to no relationship to selling prices. While one must know product costs, the primary or sole benefit of knowing such costs to determine whether you are making or losing money. Except for a very few special circumstances, selling prices are established by market factors, rather than by reference to costs. I will provide a few examples: - Cosmetics. An ounce of any cosmetic costs just pennies. Consider the prices of all the various mascara's, lipstick, creams, etc. the manufacturers are charging "what the market will bear". - Cereals. Manufactured from commodities, with widely varying prices, the manufacturing cost is pennies a pound and, until relatively recently, the consumers paid $4.00 and north a pound. - Wholesale paper products such as newsprint, fine, and corrugated. Over time, the selling prices average a small markup (10%-15%) over the cost of the single most efficient producer. Most paper is sold for less than cost as otherwise mills would have to close and the owners would have to absorb the huge overhead costs. Overhead costs in the manufacture of paper typically account for 2X-3X the cost of pulp, chemicals, and labor. - Commodities such as coffee, metals, oil, wheat, etc. Studies at Harvard Business School have documented that over time commodity prices will gradually become equal to the lowest prices of production. (BTW, this is exactly the difficulty we are having with bulk honey prices.) So...cost of production (I maintain) does not determine selling prices. How does one set prices for honey? Assuming one is a hobbyist or a sideliner, the most important thing is to not pay very much attention to what others are selling honey for. Especially the bulk sellers. Look for the niche markets that are not large enough to attract the bulk sellers. Consumers who want local honey represent one of those niche markets. Another is represented by those who want varietal honeys. Set selling prices that are "fair" (not outrageous) but represent premiums over those sold as coming from "China, Argentina, or the United States". Sell what you can at those prices, and hopefully it will be all you have. Compare with your costs, and if the difference is satisfactory you have a good deal! Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: NHB funds clinical studies on impact of honey supplements Regarding the study about the value of honey being used in sports and athletic training, it reminded me of what I used to do in high school. I was on the track team (a runner) and on the day of a meet I would always eat a small container of honey about a half hour or hour before my event to give me extra energy. It was part of my routine preparation and worked for me. Not only did I believe it would help me perform better, but I think it actually DID help me to perform better. Good memories. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:30:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199906291326.JAA13888@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm planning to try some fall splits using queen cells - maybe overwintering as five-frame nucs. As soon as the sourwood flow (if any) is over (mid-July) I'll be putting on Apistan strips. I'd like to go ahead and split them shortly therafter. Here's the question: Any problem rearing and mating queens while the strips are on? Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:33:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: Split Strength In-Reply-To: eparker 's message of Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:49:12 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) ED I would advise you to draw your comb first and then make your splits. It is very hard to get a split to draw foundation and build up. It is better to do your splits in late Jan. or early FEB. and catch the willow in March then the blackberry. Your split should be strong enough to make a good crop of galberry and palmetto by then. I have some real good friends that come down from MI every year and make three fram splits with cells and make about a half a crop of orange in March. By the time they get to pollination in MI in MAY they have a real strong hive of bees. They also get to come to FLORIDA for the winter, get their num. straight and usually make enough honey to pay for it all. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:39:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Re: Wholesale Price for Ross Rounds? In-Reply-To: <199906291932.PAA21607@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I sell a dozen Ross Rounds for $27 ($2.25 per) and I'm told by some that I >over >charge. I know some who sell for FAR less and I admonish them for giving them >away! Aaron, Thanks for the input. What price are your wholesale customers getting at retail? Under $3.00? Are you in upstate NY? Is comb honey pretty common there? You don't see it much down here in NC, where the preferred pack is a chunk of comb in a pint that is then filled with extracted. Thanks again Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:18:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: NHB funds clinical studies on impact of honey supplements In-Reply-To: Jean-Francois Lariviere 's message of Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:12:34 EDT Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Just as a side note ; I am a fox hunter and a beekeeper and have a lot of friends that runs hounds also. We go to field trials, this is where we turn all of our hounds out to chase the fox and the hounds are judged on how good they are and a winner is choosen. These hunts take three days to complete. All my friends come to me for honey to give to their hounds after they are caught each day. They say that their hounds recoup faster if they use honey than anything they have ever tried. For some who may be concerned we do not try and catch the fox we just run them just like the wolves would if there were any wolves. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:17:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Wholesale Price for Ross Rounds? In-Reply-To: <199906301608.MAA09952@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Greg Hankins asks: > Thanks for the input. What price are your wholesale customers getting at > retail? Under $3.00? I've seen it re-sold anywhere from $3 to $4.50 or higher. I have to agree with the comments made earlier that my customer's price is their business although I too have suggested to some that they might sell more if they marked up less. I imagine I'd sell more if I sold cheaper but less than $2.25 and I don't feel I've been compensated for my efforts. If other producers are willing to sell for less I guess they don't value their time as much as I do mine. > Are you in upstate NY? Is comb honey pretty common there? I'm in the Saratoga region (considered mid state for those close to the Canadian border, considered upstate to those close to New York City). I would not say comb honey is "common" in these parts, it's still a specialty product. I don't know of many other producers close by, except for the owners of Ross Rounds, Inc. and Betterbee, Inc. It's tough carving out a niche when you're surrounded by the big boys! My area is a tourist area and also relatively close (2 1/2 hours) to NYC, so there is a market for comb. There's also a good supply. > down here in NC the preferred pack is a chunk of comb in a pint > that is then filled with extracted. This too is a specialty item, one I've never produced. To me, chunk honey as you described is a much more daunting production task than comb. What do you get for you chunk? I think both products should bring a better price for the producer than they do. But then you run up against what the consumer is willing to pay. I used to be shocked by the prices at arts and crafts shows when I'd look at stained glass booths. I wondered how they'd DARE to ask such a high price! So I took a few classes and learned how to do stained glass. Now I'm shocked at what low wages the artisans pay themselves. Unfortunately the consuming public has not an appreciation of what it takes to produce the product. Everyone knows that you just put out an empty box this week and take the filled, packaged and labeles combs off next week, right? ;-) Aaron Morris - thinking I pay myself terrible wages! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: "David D. Scribner" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David D. Scribner" Organization: Computer Consultant Subject: Re: Connie's learning curve... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Connie! I can't help you with your mentoring, but I'll try to answer a few of your questions... > upon inspection of the hive body we discovered in the lower deep body > the comb seemed to be melted and misshapen and empty. The bees were > occupying the short above. I removed the deep body and put another short on > top of the occupied one under the excluder. There was not drawn comb > above the excluder. A few things here. It sounds as if you're leaving your excluders on all year long (spring, summer, fall and through the winter). If this is the case, don't. Bees don't really like excluders, and are hesitant in going through them to the supers above unless they have to (i.e.: during a good nectar flow). Usually, I add my excluders in the spring when I add the supers that will be filled for harvest. In the fall, when the last harvest has been taken, I remove them. Leaving them on during the winter is risky. If there is honey above the excluder, the bees won't break cluster and move up to it through the excluder if it means leaving the queen behind. They'll starve themselves out instead. > At the time I did not have the parts to make up another deep body. The bees > were quickly filling both short boxes and I managed to swap a frame of honey > and place it above the excluder before the new hive parts arrived for > assembly. By the time I received my deep bodies they had completely filled > both short boxes and had started to draw comb in one frame above the > excluder. I wasn't sure what to do at this point so I put a newly assembled > deep box with a feeder in between the two shorts that had been the main hive > body in an uneducated attempt to give the bees more room. I have not done > anything to hive except open the top to look in. It seems to be full of very > happy bees. There is still no activity above the excluder but I don't expect > it with all the new room they received. Actually, IMHO, I would have added the deep above the two shallows, but under the excluder. It's bee's natural inclination to move upward. That is why they left the bottom and moved into the shallow. I'm surprised they didn't eventually move downward again on their own, but a practice many beekeepers (including myself) use is called "reversing". In spring, you'll often find the cluster in the upper brood chamber, with the bottom chamber empty. Switch positions of the brood chambers, putting the empty on top of the one in use. Some advise to leave this "technique" only to the experts. I've never really understood why, as I've done this since I began keeping bees and have never had any problems. What you DO need to have is common sense. Reversing brood chambers, if done when the bees are occupying the mid-area where the supers meat (the top of the bottom, and the bottom of the top), can cause them to split their brood into two areas. If the weather is too cool, or if there aren't enough bees to do the job, this can cause the bees to get stressed as they try to take care of the entire brood, but spread over a great distance. If you're using two deeps for a brood chamber, inspect the hive and when you find the top full and the bottom more or less empty (as in your case), THEN do the switch. This also helps to relieve some congestion, and may help to curb swarming in the spring. > My question is, how do I manipulate > this hive so I can remove the short body from the bottom and get it situated > with two deeps instead? Others may suggest finding the queen and moving her into the deep, putting the excluder on top of this, moving frames, etc., etc. Make it easy on yourself. I've been where you are now, and would suggest that you move the shallow super that is currently on the top, to below the deep. This was the super I would expect from your message that the queen is currently using to lay eggs in. By putting it under the deep, you will give them room to move up. Since we're already into the first of July, give them time to move up into the deep. Once they have made the migration, and you find the bottom shallow completely empty of brood, set it aside for the moment. Inspect the next shallow. It probably won't be completely empty, so put it back under the deep brood chamber. Now you've got one shallow, and a deep, that are being used for brood rearing. Closer to where you want it, but not there yet. If you can forego harvesting any honey from this hive this year, when you're through you should have a strong hive that will winter great, and be "ready and raring" to go next spring. Next, take the deep with foundation installed that you built, and put it on top of the deep that is currently being used for brood. Follow this with the queen excluder. On top of the excluder, you can place the shallow super you set aside if it (more than likely) still has a little honey and pollen in it. The bees should eventually start to draw out the foundation in this deep, and start using it for food storage. They'll bring the honey from the very top shallow down, and use up the pollen, unless they need the storage room. If they do need the storage, they'll store honey in it. Since I don't know the flow times in your area, and don't know if you're in the mountains around Fayetteville or not (where it gets colder, sooner), I would expect (but can't say for certain... but then who can with bees), that they may have filled up this top deep by fall (late August) with honey. Once this has been done, you will probably have already noticed the very bottom shallow was empty and could be removed. You now have your brood chambers consisting of two deeps, and your bees should be ready to go through the winter with plenty of stores and ready for you to do your reversal next spring. If you're not harvesting honey from this hive this year, I would highly suggest feeding them a sugar syrup. If a strong honey flow is on, they may not take the syrup, but if one is not, or the flow is weak, the syrup will help them along in giving them what they need to draw out all these frames and build a good store of food for the winter. > Upon inspection they were drawing comb and tending > brood well. I added a second deep body to encourage their growth when they > had nearly filled the first box.When they had that one almost full I added a > short super to the top. My question is, should I have added an excluder? Yes, if you plan on harvesting honey from this hive this year. Excluders, as mentioned above, help prevent the queen from moving up and laying brood in the supers you plan on harvesting. Some beekeepers don't use them, and some will argue that they decrease the amount of harvestable honey as the bees hesitate to go through them. There may be times when the bees have sufficient honey stores above the brood that a natural "honey barrier" will prevent the queen from moving upward into honey supers, but IMHO, I use them and feel it's easier (especially for a "bee-ginner") to use them and not even worry if there's enough barrier to prevent brood from being laid in the honey supers or not. > I was wearing only summer attire. Next time I'll at least wear a hat . This > is the second bee I've had in my hair and it is a chilling experience. Maybe > they don't like my shampoo. At least buy yourself a veil to go with that hat, Connie. Your bees may be very docile, until that eventual "one afternoon". You'll be glad you had one on that day. > Does anyone know the dates of honey flow for my > North West Arkansas area? I don't know the dates, but this site has information on nectar sources, with bloom dates, for much of Missouri... http://beekeeper.missouri.org/ . Since you're location would share many of the sources for southern Missouri, you might gather a lot of useful information there. > What are the nine slot frame hangers used for? Once your bees have drawn out the foundation in ten frames in your honey supers, many beekeepers, after removing the supers for harvest, take out the tenth and just use nine frames from then on. When the bees fill out the frames the next time around, since they are spaced just a little farther apart (but not to far to ruin the bee space), they will draw them out wider. This gives you just as much honey in those nine frames as they would store in ten, in the same super. Extracting is also easier as you don't have as many frames to uncap and extract. Uncapping is also easier, if you're using a knife, as sunken depressions usually won't go below the endbars (when you have to put down the knife and grab the cappings scratcher). I love using nine frames, and relish the heft and feel of one of those thick babies! The slotted frame hangers are a hassle to use unless you have enough supers around that don't have them mounted in them (i.e.: commercial beekeepers). They are mounted more or less permanently in the hive, and if you need the hive for frames of foundation, you'll either have to take them back out, or wind up with a mess. Since your a hobbyist, spend that money instead on a frame spacer tool. It's a device that DOESN'T mount on the rabbit of the super. Instead, once you have your frames in the super, the tool (handheld, and looks like it has huge triangular teeth on it), is used at both ends of the frames to space them correctly. Just slide the big teeth between the frames until it stops, and your set! Until you get to know and judge the distance correctly, this tool is handy and quick. You don't want to use just nine frames with sheets of foundation, as since the foundation is not drawn yet, the space between frames will be too great. The bees will fill up that space with burr and brace comb. You'll wind up with twisted and welded comb that makes pulling the frames almost impossible. Let the bees draw the comb in ten frames, then once it's been drawn, just put nine of those frames back in. Some beekeepers use just eight of these thick frames in their honey supers! Personally, I just use nine... seems to be the right number for me, but it's strictly personal. > Should I have excluders on all my hives? Only those that you plan to harvest honey from in the current year. Remember, on in the spring, and off in the fall with those excluders. > How often should I do a thorough inspection on the hive bodies? Others will have their own opinions, though I personally will try to inspect the brood three to four times during the spring-to-fall season... more if I suspect problems of course. The first spring inspection is to see how your queen and her troop have fared, what needs to be done, judge about how soon to reverse, check food stores, etc. Again a few weeks later, as the first spring flow is starting, I'll check into the brood chambers again to inspect the brood for pattern, disease, etc. I don't try to find the queen unless I have to (requeening, for example), I can tell a lot about the queen's condition by the condition of the brood, and the bees coming and going from the hive. I'll sometimes check it again, later in the season, especially if I notice things aren't "right". I also check the brood in the fall before going into winter to get a feel for how the hive will winter-over. I try to do this check early enough that if I need to requeen, I have time to acquire a queen from a breeder or let the bees raise a new queen before going into the winter. A new queen in fall does best if she's had the time to raise a bit of brood. This is especially important if you let the bees raise their own queen, as she'll need to replace a lot of brood that was lost during the time she was being raised. As well, you'll want to have her emerged and taking her mating flights while there are still plenty of drones around! I hope this has answered at least some of your questions. I'm sure they'll be more, but it sounds like you're on a good start for a great harvest next year! Best of luck, --David Scribner Niche on the Net! - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:55:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Wholesale Price for Ross Rounds? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An open letter to beekeepers, If you charge too much you'll know it because you'll soon have a surplus. If you charge too little ( and keep track of the money) you'll soon find more money going out than coming in. With hobbyists it's tougher to tell when you are charging too little. Most don't bother keeping track of costs. (I didn't know how.) In a capitalistic system it's your job to get as much per unit as possible. It's the consumer's job to make you keep the price reasonable. If you don't press for the best price ( for whatever reason) then, you artificially deflate the market. Deflated markets do no one any good in the long run. Examine the current situation with beekeeping. I am a sideliner trying to keep down the number of hives I manage. I charge a premium for honey, ( up to $6.00/ lb US for extracted) people still get mad when I tell them I've sold my crop. Farmers are fighting between themselves for hives for pollination. I've turned down contracts for twice the number of colonies that I own and have others agree to share their orders because there are no beekeepers around willing to spend the hours late into the night moving bees ( and they want to stay on speaking terms). Why is this so? Why isn't the number of beekeepers rising to meet the demand? Ask any commercial beekeeper. They'll tell you it's a labor of love and anyone who wants to embark on this business is crazy because you can't make any money. Why is that? Costs are high but the prices charged are not high enough to cover the true costs. The situation will only get worse as the older beekeepers retire ( in many cases, again ) and there are not enough young beekeepers stepping up to take their place and the feral honeybees continue to be lacking. I am at my current goal, financially and in a growth sense, with beekeeping ( it is self sufficient and covering the costs for rapid growth and equipment), I have raised the prices for pollination, every grower has commented, I tell them honest answers regarding true costs and the situation. Some even have said they expect they will be paying a little more next year to ensure they get their orders. Do you know your cost is for a pound of honey? If you don't know, you can't know how to reduce it. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Greg Hankins wrote: > >I sell a dozen Ross Rounds for $27 ($2.25 per) and I'm told by some that I > >over > >charge. I know some who sell for FAR less and I admonish them for giving them > >away! > > Aaron, > > Thanks for the input. What price are your wholesale customers getting at > retail? Under $3.00? > > Thanks again > > Greg > > Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:43:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Reduced Size Queen Excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have read in a recent post that bees do not like travelling through a queen excluder unless there is a honey flow on. The queen excluder thus appears to be an impediment to the smooth running of the hive. But if we do not use a queen excluder we get brood in at least the first super. I read somewhere that the queen will rarely if ever travel from one box to another around the edges of the hive, preferring to stay in the centre. Workers and drones on the other hand will travel from box to box at the edges as well as in the centre. This fact has, if my memory serves me correctly, been used to construct a queen excluder which is only big enough to cover the centre of the hive, ie if the hive dimension is 480mm by 480mm, the 'cut down' queen excluder is a square somewhat smaller than this. Clearly the smaller it is made the greater is the chance of the queen by passing it, and the bigger it is made the more it is drifting back to the problems it is trying to solve. Has anybody heard of this idea, what is the optimum size, and is there any experience of using it? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:04:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Mosquito spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in a mosquito spraying district. It is my understanding the spraying is supposed to occur after dark. Of course my concern is bees still flying. The spraying occurred today at 5:52. Anyone have access to the labeling for this stuff. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:21:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Black Coloured Foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, CO wrote as follows: >The new black colored foundation sure is a help in reviewing hive >conditions. Can this product be obtained in the UK? Thanks for any info. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940