From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:20 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27340 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11120 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11120@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:14 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9907A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 182672 Lines: 3812 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:47:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett, nearer to home for me than the majority of writers in the States, asks whether smaller queen excluders can be used. The answer is "Yes", lay a sheet of thick polythene, cut to leave a space of about 2" around the edge, on top of the brood frame top bars and SELDOM (back to church now to pray) will the queen pass it. The problem is you lose the 'bee-space' but I suppose this could easily be overcome by framing the polythene excluder, or even as recently suggested in private mailings with Chris Slade, "simply lay twigs across the top bars". Ken Hoare Shropshire, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:09:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L Guidelines, monthly reminder In-Reply-To: <990623.073425.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Guideline for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that in- clude the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. 2. Submit your posts as TEXT ONLY! There are many sub- scribers whose mailers will not interpret text markup languages and to them submissions which include markup characters (such as HTML) appear as gibberish. Sub- missions to BEE-L must be in the lowest common denomina- tor for all subscribers, which is TEXT ONLY! Posts submitted to BEE-L in markup languages will be rejected without notice. 3. Binary file attachments are not allowed on BEE-L. Simi- lar to markup languages, many subscribers have mailers not able to decipher binary file attachments (such as MS Word attachments). Submissions with binary attachments are never approved by the list moderators, most times without notice. Suggestions for binary attachments in- clude deciphering them at your end to include in the text of your submission or making them available at your site and advertising their availability on BEE-L. Please verify your URLs. If detected, submissions with invalid or nonexistant URLs will not be approved, possi- bly without notice. 4. Do not send personal responses to the entire list. If Bea Keepr posts something to the list that inspires you to write to Bea, DO NOT send your personal response to BEE-L, send it to Bea! Only send to the list that which you want read by everyone. Submissions to the list that appear to be personal responses are rarely approved by the list moderators, often without notice. 5. Trolling (name calling, baiting, incivility) is not tol- erated. Heated discussions are allowed, after all we're beekeepers and may not always agree. But as Rodney King put it, "Can't we all just get along?" 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Approved frequently asked questions are often met with cries of "Search the Archives!". Cries of "Search the Archives!" are sometimes approved to drive home the point, but rarely. 8. Submissions to BEE-L should not contain misinformation. Although slow to admit it, the moderators do not know it all. However, blatant misinformation is rejected with- out notice. Realizing there is a fine line between new, thought provoking ideas and misinformation the modera- tors strive for leniency in their judgment and prefer to err on the side of thought provoking ideas. Reader be- ware that if you read it here it ain't necessarily so! 9. BEE-L is not a marketplace. Product reviews are wel- come. Product announcements are tolerated. Repeated announcements and marketing are less welcome proportion- ately to their frequency. Advertisements may be re- jected without notice. 10. Lastly, long signature files are discouraged. A guide- line of five lines is suggested. Life histories and driving directions to your doorstep or place of business are strongly discouraged and are often rejected without notice. The BEE-L moderators and subscribers thank you in advance for adhering to these guidelines. We hope you find your BEE-L experience informative, engaging, educational and most importantly, fun! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:23:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Edited submission Re: Mosquito spraying In-Reply-To: <199907011310.JAA29465@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by rtaylor421@LOWCOUNTRY.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > > ----------------- Original message (ID=2C63C4EB) (37 lines) ------------------- > Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 09:06:45 -0400 > From: ratylor421 > Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > > > Thom; I live in the Lowcountry area of South Carolina. The best mosquito > control county is beaufort. They request that beekeepers register their > hives with them. They even take pictures of the hive location. They > locate the hives using GPS system and their operators turn off the > applicators when they approach your bee yard and back on after they pass. > They also use plane to stray and this is done after dark. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:45:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-06-30 22:57:31 EDT, thombrad@VISI.NET (Thom Bradley) wrote: << I live in a mosquito spraying district. It is my understanding the spraying is supposed to occur after dark. Of course my concern is bees still flying. The spraying occurred today at 5:52. Anyone have access to the labeling for this stuff. >> Best bet is to call your vector control, and let them know bees were still flying, and that you want the label information. Common adulticides include resmethrin, dibrom and malathion, all of which prohibit application while bees are foraging. Control districts are using more and more larvicides, which do not have bee protection labels; they aren't toxic. Offer to help them monitor when bees are flying. Otherwise they do need to spray after dark. Insist that they obey the labels; if they are using adulticides while bees are flying in the application area, it is a violation. And insist that they base their applications on actual monitoring of bee flight rather than assumptions. Wilful violation is a crime, and you can swear out a warrant for their arrest. Don't let them evade the labels by calling you and making you "protect" the bees. If enough beekeepers get assertive about getting the law enforced, this kind of kill will stop. These mosquito adulticides don't show much evidence at the hive after the fact, just weak hives, because they drop the field force in "the field." This is why we have to focus on stopping violations rather than try to salvage after the kill. Kills are really hard to prove, after the fact, but they will deny you your honey crop, and often make bees too weak to survive the winter. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:55:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BOGANSRJ@APCI.COM Subject: Honey Prices/Marketing Tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been trying to hold back, but this topic is one that I will debate, discuss, or argue to my grave. I have commented on this in the past, so for the purpose of getting something positive from this post, other than my opinion, I will also include some marketing tips I have found to be successful. However there will be a good dose of my opinion mixed in (you've been warned). Thom Bradley wrote: Shout this from the highest stack of supers!!! If you insist that "this is just a hobby" and "I do it for fun, not money". Fine, sell half, or third, or whatever to cover your expenses at a good price and give the rest away. Food banks, senior citizens, friends and neighbors would appreciate and not refuse your offer. It may even be tax deducible, and the amount of the deduction is based on the value of the donation. (Bill Clinton values his "used sciveys", donated to charity, at $2. Surely your one pound jar is worth more than that.) If you do this you will end up in the same place and not kill the market. There are enough packers out there, importing cheap honey, trying to do that already. Thom also wrote: < I am a sideliner trying to keep down the number of hives I manage. I charge a premium for honey.> A farmer that plants three acres of corn which he sells for $2 a dozen at the farmer's market can make the same amount of money if he plants two acres and sells it for $3 a dozen. Same money less work. But if that upsets him somehow, he can plant pumpkins in the third acre and afford to pay a beekeeper to pollinate them. Good price and everyone benefits. As for the consumer, if the corn is good, they won't mind the higher price and now they have a place to buy pumpkins and local honey from the farmer who says it comes from the beekeeper that pollinated them. So much for the opinion now for the tips. Farmer's markets are generally good places to sell honey by farmers not beekeepers. Unless the market has a huge or varied population supporting it you will be disappointed if you set up shop and just sell honey. The first week you will do great. You will make a lot of sales. Your customers will buy a one pound jar along with the corn and peaches offered by other farmers. The second week your customer will return and buy more corn and peaches and come along and tell you how great your honey is but, unlike the peaches and corn, they won't buy another jar of honey. Why? Because you have already sold them a six month supply. Face it, people don't use a lot of honey. If there is large enough customer base to support the market this may not always be true, but usually if you decide to stick it out the summer you will develop some regular customers but you will be disappointed overall. This is especially true at the end of the day when you take home 90% of what you brought and the farmer next to you has sold out. This becomes even more disturbing when you find out he is really not much of a farmer and most of what he sells he buys from other farmer's who grew too much and were forced to sell at VERY low prices. See the same thing happens in produce business as in honey. There is always someone willing to sell too low and someone, without morals, who will capitalize on this. So how do you sell honey at a Farmer's market? The best way is wholesale. If you wanted to go to the market for a few weeks to "establish" yourself and then work out a deal with one of the farmer's to sell for you that may help. Most markets have a fee to be there. This covers permits, liability insurance, etc. and can cut deep into your profits. I have found a market that is different from other markets. We get many repeat customers and many new ones. The funny thing is most of the customers are not local. The market is located at a service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. It is sponsored by the Dept. of Agriculture. All items sold must be grown in PA. There are always new customers. Many are travelers from other states and many from foreign countries. It's a great test market. I sell my one pound jar for $3.25. A number of times I am offered $3.00. The answer is always "no" followed by "you can save money on larger jar". If they still want to negotiate, I will come down a very little but only on a larger jar. In some parts of the country and world negotiating is a custom and is expected. I feel it has to go two ways. If you buy a larger size then we'll talk. A sign on the larger jars stating "Save $1.00" or something like that really works. The number is arrived by the savings over the amount of honey in that container vs. the number and price of an equal amount of one pound jars. I try to have a wide selection of containers and varieties of honey. I only sell honey I produce so I am limited, but I will have light locust, clover, darker wildflower, and buckwheat (if I can find someone growing it). I also have comb honey both in Ross Rounds and chunks in jars. For the chunk honey I use a tall one pound jar and do not pack it full of comb. I put one piece in that is not very big. When I cut the chunks I generally get 10 to 12 pieces from one shallow frame. I surround it with the lightest honey I have. This is displayed in a prominent area of the table. It is a novelty to most customers so the size of the chunk doesn't seem to matter, but the light honey does. This may not work in the South where they expect the jar full of chunks. I sell this for $4 a jar. I don't sell cut comb in trays because the Ross Rounds, which I price at $3.50, work much better. I also carry HoneyStix. Even on a bad day these will sell. Like I said earlier, people don't buy nearly as much honey as we would like. Give them an alternative. Pure beeswax candles, blocks, and ornaments are also part of our display. You may be thinking I'm a beekeeper not a candlemaker. That's ok, then sell your honey wholesale. If you don't have a variety of items you sales will suffer and I suggest you stay away from retail. The farmer next to you is not just selling corn. Also be prepared for many questions. This is your opportunely to educate the public. Most of them have never met a beekeeper. However you can't spend 20 minutes answering every question from someone who just wants to pass the time of day and not buy anything. My favorite is the "expert" who saw a half hour show on bees and is prepared to tell you, all of your customers, and anyone else how much they know. Talking bees is fun but don't talk you profits away. These customers seldom ask the farmer how he grows the corn. After a few minutes of conversation I usually say "I am sure you will agree that talking about bees is fun, but I really like to eat honey. Wildflower is my favorite, would you like to try it or would you prefer something lighter like clover." I will be holding the two jars in front of them. I have not asked if they would like some, but rather which one would they like. Another question is do you ever get stung. I make a joke and say sure, but a carpenter hits thumb with a hammer. If they ask if it hurts. I say "just as much as when you get stung". Followed by "I get stung so you can enjoy this good honey and won't have too". I really should have quit a few paragraphs ago. A lot of hot air in this post. I really hope some of the this will help folks trying to sell their honey. But remember, you work hard to produce good honey, don't sell it cheap. If anyone is traveling on the Northeast Extension of the PA Turnpike on a Sunday in the summer of fall, feel free to stop at the Allentown Service Plaza and visit the "Honey Guy". I'd love to meet you and I won't try and sell you something . Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Good advise. I called mosquito control and when I said "beekeeper" they passed me to a supervisor that got a little defensive. I made sure he knew that I was trying to be helpful and he cooled down. They use malathion and the spray was during flying time. I will note times in the future and bring up the information at our next meeting. His first compromise is to stop the fogger prior to my house and turn it back on again after my house. That only gives me a few hundred feet though, certainly not enough space for foragers. I will contact my local extension agent and use his assistance to see if we can get the standard times changed to sunset rather than 6 PM. That certainly cannot be too much to ask. The stopping of the spray near my home is inadequate to protect my bees, also, it does not address unmanaged hives or hives moved for pollination services. The label is to protect all bees, and not just honeybees. Kinda fired up now 'cause if it was a private citizen ignoring the label, the FDA and EPA would be repossessing my business license and fining me. We'll try education first. I'll pass on information as it is discovered. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Pollinator@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 99-06-30 22:57:31 EDT, thombrad@VISI.NET (Thom Bradley) > wrote: > > << I live in a mosquito spraying district. > It is my understanding the spraying is supposed to occur after dark. Of > course my concern is bees still flying. The spraying occurred today at > 5:52. Anyone have access to the labeling for this stuff. >> > > Best bet is to call your vector control, and let them know bees were > still flying, and that you want the label information. Common adulticides > include resmethrin, dibrom and malathion, all of which prohibit application > while bees are foraging. > Offer to help them monitor when bees are flying. Otherwise they do need > to spray after dark. > > Insist that they obey the labels; if they are using adulticides while > bees are flying in the application area, it is a violation. And insist that > they base their applications on actual monitoring of bee flight rather than > assumptions. > > Dave Green SC USA > The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com > The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html > > Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) > http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Splits On 29 Jun 99, at 13:06, Lloyd Spear wrote: > The splits I have been making and will make until July 15 are of the > "walk-away" type. This means I let them raise their own queen. After > July 15 I will either give them a queen cell or a laying queen. (I will > only get about 80% good queens from my "walk-away" splits; I hate to say this, but that bit is bad advice in light of some new information we would like to present. We have been raising queens commercially for some 7-8 years now, and part of this has been the following of pedigrees, where the queens came from and how they were made and an evaluation of their final traits. Copius notes have now been condensed and the results are very suprising and controversial, in fact even now I can't belive the results as they are contrary to popular teaching. Some time ago we were persuaded to add a mix of the latest 'exotics' to our yards,using their drones to improve our mating diversity. To maintain the genetics we would pinch out the old queen and allow the daughter to take over the hive. In effect a 'walk away split', worse thing we ever did! We noticed a general increase in aggression over the years but being busy didn't think to much about it till last year when those bees would meet you at the gate with their stingers out and ready. Finally in desperation we had to cull a full hive, being just too bad to handle, as bad as any AHB. In Oct last, Varroa entered our area and unbeknown to us these angry hives were robbing out hives dying from Varroa, they brought back thousands which eventually killed them. The other hives in that same yard, all grafted queens had small amounts of Varroa on examination, but they're still viable. This year we are back to where we started, T-shirt and shorts to handle hives and very, very few stings and those usually caused by my clumsiness! Self made queens are regressive, allow it to happen over more than 2 generations and the quality goes backwards. Believe it or not we had hives which wouldn't make wax, others that wouldn't make cells as a cell builder. The pattern suffered and the increase in chalk brood was quite remarkable and finally we had one that produced tons of brood, but no honey! Once a queen regresses it is impossible to improve by regrafting, in other words the trait is fixed. We did find that requeening an angry, and regressed hive with a grafted queen would almost instantly improve it. Which would point out that anger is not genetic, but something lacking in the queen. With all these new facts in front of us a number of decisions have been made. NO MORE self made or emergency queens, only grafted, marked queens. If a hive drops a marked grafted queen it will be replaced immediately before it has time to make drones. Before someone says this is a ploy to sell more queens, it isn't, just a genuine wish to present facts we've gleaned over the last few years of intense observation. Take my advise. If you want clean, well mannered, hard working bees then don't allow self made, emergency queens to live any longer than absolutely necessary. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Labels **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:57:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" Subject: Pollinator Protection Handbook - Carl Johansen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello,All ! Will someone please help with a source of the subject handbook and of a copy of the FIFRA act. We are having a very difficult time with the Massachusetts Mosquito Control Program in the adjacent salt marshes and shoreline homes especially at Sweet Pepperbush bloom time beginning early August. Thanks to Dave Green, we now have some combattive ammunition and need a lot more ! Zodiac Farms, 907 Horseneck Road, Westport, MA 02790-1355 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:56:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) Plindena from arc4a82.bf.sover.net [209.198.82.212] 209.198.82.212 Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:13:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: July 24 Beekeeping Workshop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Here is an item for your calendar: "Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping workshop from 1-3 PM, Saturday, July 24, at the Paul Harlow Farm on Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north of the I-91 Exit 5 ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign. The topics of discussion will be taking off and processing honey and wax, treatment of mites and foulbrood, making nuclei for wintering, queen evaluation, and making propolis tincture. Bring a veil, if you have one, as we shall be opening some colonies. Rain date: July 25. Register: lindena@sover.net or call 603-756-9056" Thank you, Charles F. Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Beekeeping Supplies Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-’89 1 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 USA/EUA 603-756-9056 Residence: Latitude: 43° 05’ North, Longitude: 72° 21’ 15" West, Elevation 1200’ Keeper of 41 two-queen colonies for honey, pollen, propolis, pollination, nuclei, beeswax, apitherapy, and education ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:47:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pollinator Protection Handbook - Carl Johansen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/1/99 11:34:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CChaseIII@AOL.COM writes: > Will someone please help with a source of the subject handbook and of a > copy of > the FIFRA act. I'm looking for a copy of FIFRA (1972) myself. I'm sure it can be found either in epa materials or in the code of laws of the US. I had a paper copy years ago, but it is lost. Meanwhile here are some info sources about FIFRA A history of FIFRA http://www.epa.gov/reg5foia/pest/history.html Provisions of FIFRA http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/nasd/docs2/as68500.html Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 02:00:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a private communication, Thom Bradley indicates that his mosquito district is trying to get beekeepers to agree to a turn off of the spraying for a few hundred feet near the hives. I mention this because it is of interest to all of us. This is a pretty common technique. This in no way complies with label directions; if fact it is an evasion of them. Note that the label directions refer solely to FORAGING bees, not beehives. Be sure to point that out to your applicator. By protecting foraging bees, the colony is also protected. In order for the applicator to comply with the directions about FORAGING bees he must have actual data, not just conjecture. That is why I suggest we offer to help these mosquito districts monitor the times bees forage. We can assume that nighttime applications of non-residual materials will not contact bees, because they are not foraging. But for daytime applications, compliance can only be assured if there is actual monitoring of forage sources within the application area, and times of foraging by the bees. Too many times beekeepers wimp out. When applicators realize that we know the law, and are going to be assertive about compliance, they will bring their programs into compliance, and bee kills will drop dramatically. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 03:59:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hank Mishima Subject: Re: Pollinator Protection Handbook - Carl Johansen In-Reply-To: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" 's message of Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:57:20 EDT Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Hello All! A good place to start is at www.law.cornell.edu/ >From there you can go to the Code of Federal Regulations and do a search on the GPO engine using FIFRA or 40CFR152. I didn't look at all the details because it is very long. You can do a more precise search of you have the specific sections you need to view. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:02:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Malathion label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone get access to the label for malathion use in fogger applications? In my district they use it in foggers in the back of pickup trucks. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:06:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: Honey Prices/Marketing Tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Has anyone ever tried selling honey and/or honey products over the internet? How about putting it up for auction at e-bay? Or setting up a web page, I have seen a few of these. Is anyone doing this with success? Seems like the internet could be a good point of sale. Global audience. Regards, Billy Smart Central Kansas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:12:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Malathion label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-02 11:29:48 EDT, thombrad@VISI.NET (Thom Bradley) wrote: << Can anyone get access to the label for malathion use in fogger applications? In my district they use it in foggers in the back of pickup trucks. >> Here's the bee directions: "This pesticide is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment or to residues remaining on the treated area. Do not apply when bees are actively visiting the crop, cover crop, or weeds blooming in the treatment area." Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:18:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying - Good News! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Report from Hemingway, SC: 7-2-99 You will recall I mentioned that a mosquito application was done here in the town, prior to our spring BBQ-Shag festival. This was done in the morning during peak bee foraging hours. The county mosquito district head denied application throughout the community (we are certain they went by us, three blocks away), but admitted to the application at the park and the roadsides adjacent to it. There were dozens of species of bee forage plants in bloom. Despite their admitting only the limited area (which I think is untrue), they have still been cited, because clover was found in the grass, mustard was found on the roadsides, and honeysuckle adjacent to the ball field. The applicator also implicated himself by admitting that the spray was drifting over into the woods behind the ball field. The label states: "do not apply when weather conditions favor drift from areas treated" also, "This pesticide is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment or to residues remaining on the treated area. Do not apply when bees are actively visiting the crop, cover crop, or weeds blooming in the treatment area." Now there is a ten day period for comment and additional information, before any enforcement action is taken. I am asking for criminal prosecution, because the district has been cited before, because the director told me personally that bees were not considered, and because each such violation is a seizure of property from beekeepers without compensation, a violation of the Bill of Rights. In the past, applicators who are public officials, have not had any enforcement action taken, though the pesticide regulators cited them for application inconsistant with the labeling. And again I am requesting our enforcement folks to require that compliance with bee directions on the labels be based on actual monitoring, prior to applications, not on guesses and assumptions. The latter is an obvious indication of negligence, in the legal sense. I am also requesting (once again) that spot checks be done on cotton applications during cotton bloom, to ascertain compliance with bee label directions. So far the regulation people have refused to do this. Just a few checks, and word would get around, and bee kills would drop off dramatically. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: Is perception reality? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'd love to read a thread about how the general public regards bees and beekeepers. We all know why bees have been devastated in the last ten years and, I presume, we are doing our bit to preserve them. But I'm wondering what the public really knows (and cares) about these creatures we love. For example, if you ask Hollywood for information, you get THE SWARM at one extrem and ULEE'S GOLD at the other. As another example, I have one neighbor who welcomes a nearby hive for his garden and on the other side a neighbor who thinks the only good bee is a dead bee. Any thoughts on this perceptual conundrum? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:59:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Re: Honey Prices/Marketing Tips In-Reply-To: <199907021618.MAA25106@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Smart, Billy Y wrote: > Has anyone ever tried selling honey and/or honey products over the internet? > How about putting it up for auction at e-bay? Or setting up a web page, I > have seen a few of these. Is anyone doing this with success? Seems like the > internet could be a good point of sale. Global audience. We don't use the net, but do sell some honey at retail and ship by mail. The cost of shipping, whether by USPO or Fedex/UPS is very high (honey and glass are so heavy, you know) that even folks who ignore shipping costs when they order are discouraged when they see the bill and rarely come back for more. I think the advice we've heard regarding local sales has great merit. But I'd sure like to be proven wrong. It just occured to me that one use of the net in retail sales by the producer would be to have a geographically indexed guide to bee keepers who do sell retail. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:59:43 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990702075017.00a4d0e0@ns1.q7.net> On 2 Jul 99, at 8:15, Al Lipscomb wrote: > I have made a number of these "walk away splits" and am now on third > generation queens using this method. The only issues I can think of is a > spit being made where there are no eggs for the workers to use to raise > the queen and a poor food supply at the time of the split. Here we go again. I have written this up 2 or 3 times and we still seem to go round and round. I was talking of self made, or emergency queens, made when the hive is not expecting a lost queen. The hive goes into emergency mode and 3-4 days later you'll find, but few take the time to look, sealed queen cells. It takes 3 days to hatching, so those sealed at 3 days after emergency only get a 6 day feeding, instead of 9 which is normal. Those missing 3 days make a tremendous difference to the queen quality. Remember this is an emergency, and 'any port in a storm' is the reasoning of the bees. First out gets the rest, so even if the bees do make a 'decent' cell that first one out kills the rest, unless the keeper intervenes. I was anticipating this reaction. Beekeepers seem determined to stick to the old ways, regardless. Someone once wrote, 'you can always tell a beekeeper, but not much'. Regards to all. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Labels **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:18:58 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Mosquito spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to mention some other issues about mosquito spraying that haven't been mentioned in this discussion. 1. Mosquitoes are a problem in areas surrounding wet lands, small lakes and ponds where water movement in low. 2. Mosquitoes are also a problem in housing areas that surround these wet lands. 3. Wet lands are usually in lowland areas where the air may or may not drain away quickly. 4. Remember mosquitoes are a public health concern and are considered so by community leaders. As such their control may take precedence over bee protection if the public health hazard is deemed to exceed the value of the bees (and perhaps other insects and pollinators) in the affected area. 5. Mosquito control district persons may have varying levels of knowledge about the proper control methods and timing of applications. 6. It is incumbent on the applicator to read, understand, and follow all label directions when spraying mosquitoes. 7. Seeing a spray rig doesn't mean that an application was being made at the time, though the sight of one raises one's apprehensions. 8. Hives should be placed upwind and upslope from mosquito hazard areas. It may be possible to place the hives on high ground in a generally low area. 9. Beekeepers should place their hives above the spray area if possible and let them fly down to the forage area. 10. Applications of malathion are obviously harmful to bees when they are directly sprayed while foraging and when going to and from the apiary. 11. Applications are also hazardous when the spray laden air moves down slope into an apiary and into the hives when bees are fanning air through the hives to maintain temperature or ripening honey. The spray may also move uphill some with pressure from wind or because of the air flow off the aircraft wings or blades. 12. Turning off the spray rig in the vicinity of the hives may or may not protect the bees depending on wind and air movement. If the hives are in an area of low risk from mosquitoes, turning off the rig can be a good bargaining point with the applicator. 13. Malathion usually dissipates quickly at the normal application temperatures. This means that bees in the field don't usually make it back to the hive, depending on the distance to the application. If the spray moves through the apiary, the bees in the hive usually tighten their cluster and fan the chemical out of the hive. The bees on the outside of the cluster will be killed but usually not the whole cluster. 14. Beekeepers do not have an inherent, or a legal "right" to place bee hives where they want to and then expect others to protect them from hazards. 15. Beekeepers should make themselves aware of hazards to bees in their local area before they move their bees to a location. 16. They should find out where mosquito spraying is done and determine the normal spray period i.e., months of the year, time of day, number of times the area is sprayed, how much area is sprayed, likely wind direction and speed, air movement at application time, application method (ground or air), etc. Here in Washington, beekeepers and the Department of Agriculture have worked closely with Mosquito Control Districts to minimize hazards to bees. larvicides are used regularly and sprays only when population levels reach a high level. Districts usually communicate with local residents via the newspaper, radio and TV to inform them of the application area, date and timing. The applications that I am aware of were made in the late evening to dusk because of mosquito and air movement behavior. I think it is incumbent on beekeepers to work closely with departments of agriculture and other industry groups on bee hazard issues. It must be done in a congenial manner to be effective, and one must take the time to do one's homework on the issues. Sometimes it seems like the effort is long and grueling especially when there is so much bee work to do. Regulators are people too and they have to work within the system they find themselves in, which sometimes is difficult, and not always as efficient as they would like. It is difficult to walk in another's shoes, if not impossible, but try it sometime. I think you'll have an appreciation for what they accomplish and come away with another point of view. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:31:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Malachy Subject: Re: Malathion label In-Reply-To: <199907021618.MAA25140@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Whenever I read about pesticide concerns I think of Monsanto. And in many ways as I have read the issues Monsanto is a friend of the Enviornment. I've been impressed of their interesting seminars presented at Enviornmental Conferences here in Seattle and at the University of Washington. Perhaps you've see the MONSANTO REPORT ON SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT? It's free! Monsanto Company, Enviornmental Public Affairs A2SP, 800 North Lindergh Boulevard, St. Louis, MO 63167. 314/694-5432, enviro1@monsanto.com, www.monsanto.com. "Sustainable development through Monsanto's eyes." This is Biotech Access! dm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:32:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Reduced Size Queen Excluder In-Reply-To: <199907010253.WAA21903@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have read in a recent post that bees do not like travelling > through a > queen excluder unless there is a honey flow on. The queen > excluder thus > appears to be an impediment to the smooth running of the hive. This is simply untrue. There are specific cases where there can be problems associated with using any tool. Both fire and the wheel can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Excluders are an invention that never killed anyone, but like fire and the wheel, they are a technology that not everyone can learn to use. Observant and capable beekeepers have various uses for excluders, and many use them to separate brood from honey. Personally I would not run a hive -- except a comb hive -- without one. I have written much on the topic before and it is available in the BEE-L logs, so I won't repeat it. In short, the bees have to learn to travel through them and there are times that they learn best. Bees will sometimes avoid going through excluders if the queen is poorm or the brood chamber is too large and they can store enough honey under it to satisfy themselves. Moreover, we recently learned here that not all bees will fit through all excluders. > I read somewhere that the queen will rarely if ever travel > from one box to > another around the edges of the hive, preferring to stay in > the centre. > Workers and drones on the other hand will travel from box to > box at the > edges as well as in the centre. This fact has, if my memory serves me > correctly, been used to construct a queen excluder which is > only big enough to cover the centre of the hive, This has been covered here in depth, been tried by list members, and it does not work reliably. Some small excluders cover only the centre and some only the outside area. Neither method gets better than 90% success. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:13:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" Subject: Used Equipment Needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seeking following used equipment in good operative condition. Please quote asking prices and detailed descriptions with your offerings. Thank you ! Maxant Series 1700 Chain Uncapper Betterway Model 20F or 30F Wax Melter Zodiac Farms, 907 Horseneck Rd., Westport, MA 02790 -1355 e-Mail - cchaseiii @ aol.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:28:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying Comments: To: jcbach@yvn.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/3/99 10:31:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jcbach@yvn.com writes: Jim Bach makes has some valid observations, which I'll leave alone. I'd want to add some comment on some points and I vigorously disagree with a couple things he said: > 4. Remember mosquitoes are a public health concern and are considered so > by community leaders. As such their control may take precedence over bee > protection if the public health hazard is deemed to exceed the value of the > bees (and perhaps other insects and pollinators) in the affected area. Unless there is a declaration of emergency, the public officials involved are bound to obey the law, regardless. The label is the law, and I am continuously amazed at how much these officials try to wiggle out. Incidently the mosquito control people have been lobbying the EPA to try to exempt themselves from the bee label directions, which is a back-door way of admitting that they are not obeying them. > 5. Mosquito control district persons may have varying levels of knowledge > about the proper control methods and timing of applications. You got that right! Some wouldn't know a honeybee from a yellow jacket. > 6. It is incumbent on the applicator to read, understand, and follow all > label directions when spraying mosquitoes. Absolutely! And that means some basic knowledge of the bees and the flowers that they forage upon. I have pushed and pushed for better education and monitoring, but it's definitely an uphill fight. Many do not want to know. > 7. Seeing a spray rig doesn't mean that an application was being made at > the time, though the sight of one raises one's apprehensions. True, and applications of larvicides are not hazardous to bees. But an observant beekeeper should be able to learn the difference, at least with ground rigs. Adulticides are fogged, larvicides are sprayed into standing water (ditches, etc.) > 12. Turning off the spray rig in the vicinity of the hives may or may not > protect the bees depending on wind and air movement. If the hives are in an > area of low risk from mosquitoes, turning off the rig can be a good > bargaining point with the applicator. Turning off the rig in the vicinity of the hives has little to do with label directions (which refer to *foraging* bees). If the bees are at home, damage will be limited to perhaps a few guard bees that pick up a droplet (unless the rig actually blows the fog into the hives). If the applicator can establish, prior to application, that bees are not out foraging in the application area, I can live with whatever slight damage will occur to the hives. I have a few hives right in my own neighborhood (one right at my back step), which is regularly sprayed at night. I have never seen any significant damage from this. I don't want mosquitoes biting me at our outdoor cookout, either, if I can ever find time to have one.... > 14. Beekeepers do not have an inherent, or a legal "right" to place bee > hives where they want to and then expect others to protect them from > hazards. Wrong! In the context of pesticide use/misuse, this is pure baloney! If my beekeeping were restricted to areas that are free of risk from pesticides, only about 10 - 15% of South Carolina would be available for beekeeping (western states might have a bigger percentage). These would be pine forests where bees would starve. And, even there, there could be one of these occasional outbreaks of pine borers, and here we go! If I moved my bees, or ran to "protect" them, every time they would be at risk from pesticides, I'd have to charge $150 or more per hive for pollination, to make it a viable business. Many pesticide applications are made in compliance with label directions, probably as many accidently as intentional. It's those that are not made according to label directions that cause the losses. Those that tell me to move bees have not offered to pay my expenses, so that they could apply in violation of the labels! > 15. Beekeepers should make themselves aware of hazards to bees in their > local area before they move their bees to a location. An acquaintance of mine was warned of a massive aerial application for mosquitoes to be done in his area. He moved two tractor trailer loads of bees at enormous expense, and loss of the honey crop that was already underway (ever try to un-super hives while a honeyflow is on?). He moved to another area he thought was safe. There he was badly hit by applications of Penncap M on blooming alfalfa (a violation of the label). There are some sprays that are done on a fairly regular basis. But there are often ones that come up suddenly as well. You cannot always know what is happening to your bees 100 miles away, and you usually can't drop everything and run at a moment's notice. > 16. They should find out where mosquito spraying is done and determine > the normal spray period i.e., months of the year, time of day, number of > times the area is sprayed, how much area is sprayed, likely wind direction > and speed, air movement at application time, application method (ground or > air), etc. This is true. And they should know the normal materials, have copies of the label directions to know the law, and make sure applicators know they know the law. Otherwise the applicators will try to do an "end run" around the label directions, by notification schemes. > > Here in Washington, beekeepers and the Department of Agriculture have worked > closely with Mosquito Control Districts to minimize hazards to bees. > larvicides are used regularly and sprays only when population levels reach > a high level. Districts usually communicate with local residents via the > newspaper, radio > and TV to inform them of the application area, date and timing. The > applications that I am aware of were made in the late evening to dusk > because of mosquito and air movement behavior. I have no problem with late evening and night adulticide applications. As far as I can see, they comply with the label. My problem is daytime applications, done with no monitoring to see what hours bees forage in the application area. > > I think it is incumbent on beekeepers to work closely with departments of > agriculture and other industry groups on bee hazard issues. It must be done > in a congenial manner to be effective, and one must take the time to do > one's homework on the issues. I always start out with a congenial attitude, though I am not going to be steamrolled. I cannot be as congenial with lawbreakers, or public officials who refuse to do their enforcement job. I am well aware that I am a mouse among elephants, and the only thing I have on my side is the law. So I am going to insist on implementation and enforcement of the law. Sometimes it seems like the effort is long > and grueling especially when there is so much bee work to do. Regulators > are people too and they have to work within the system they find themselves > in, which sometimes is difficult, and not always as efficient as they would > like. It is difficult to walk in another's shoes, if not impossible, but > try it sometime. I think you'll have an appreciation for what they > accomplish and come away with another point of view. Well spoken, Jim, as someone who has a salary, a pension, and many perks. When will we be permitted to get on board? The reverse is also true. When you are struggling to keep your head above water, it's hard to be "nice" to someone who pulls you down, or even those who could help but just look away. Just when the bees are in real nice shape, and it looks like a season when you will actually prosper a bit, another round of violations leaves the bees looking sickly and unproductive, and you are into a salvage mode, trying to feed them enough to enable them to replace lost foragers to get them in shape for the next pollination. At a time when the bees should be producing, they are consuming, in a desperate effort to replace their lost sisters. The violators get away with it most of the time, and even when caught, wind up getting scolded or have their pinkies slapped, because the regulators are bought and paid for by the industry they supposedly regulate. I lived at the poverty level for several years after the mosquito spraying following Hurricane Hugo, which was mostly done in violation (as they were after Hurricanes Fran and Andrew). I have barely been able to get above the poverty level today. We dream of owning our own place, but own no real estate, drive old trucks, and have no pension fund. Health insurance takes every nickel we can scrape. I am confident that I could make a good living, if it weren't for pesitide damage from label violations. I am continuously amazed at the productivity of these little creatures, and I take their husbandry very seriously. I am proud of what I do, as one of the most productive groups in America. This has kept me going, at times when I have been tempted to quit. I may yet be forced to quit, but I will not do it willingly. Right now, South Carolina is big on gambling. It really galls me, that I could get rid of my bees and equipment, turn my honey house into a video poker emporium, and live high off the hog. I wish that as much attention would be paid to the producers, as to the parasites. America has too few producers and too many parasites. Sooner or later, probably sooner, our bubble is going to burst. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:50:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hank Mishima Subject: Re: Malathion label In-Reply-To: Dave Malachy 's message of Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:31:11 -0700 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) What is your relationship with this company? I am not sure they are that great of a friend of the small farmer or beekeeper. What have they done to insure that our bees will not be affected by the pollen from their new bt crops and/or terminater seed crops. Many around the world are now refusing to let theses new technologies in their country because they feel that their has not been enough scientific review of potental disasters that could occur if gene spliced characteriistics mutate accross different plants or more importantly, if pests become resistant and stronger to these genetically manipulated (GM) foods. Are you sure you want to have to rely on this company and maybe one or two others for all your food needs? I believe we need to take a much more conservative approach to the concepts being put forth earnestly by the biotech companies. We are entrusting them them with an enormous responsibility, If any mistakes made have the potential to starve many people. Do a simple engine search on the company and you can find out for yourself how others feel about the related issues. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 21:09:22 -0400 Reply-To: beeman@NOSPAMkingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: What a mess! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Well I'm getting ready to extract next weekend. So I went to the hives today to move the finished boxes to the top and the boxes in use to the bottom. All the hives have three suppers on with two completed. All was going well till I hit my largest hive. They have built burr comb with honey every where. What a mess!! The boxes APPEAR to place the frames at the same height. There are ten frames in each box and I am conscious of the bee space. But apparently there is a difference between the equipment. I think it could also be due to the size of the colony, that they were bringing in nectar faster then they could draw out the foundation on the new super?? It has been on the hive for almost three weeks. Anyway, I scraped the mess off the top and bottom of all the frames. I was really popular with the gals. My neighbor was watching and after I was finished and sharing a beer that it was the first time he had seen a tornado of bees :-). But no stings. The honey is very light this year at my hives here in Ontario. I was wondering if any one else has tried their liquid gold yet? It's been hot and fairly dry here since the spring. But the honey flow is better this year for me then last year. Well good luck to you all and here's hoping your extracters run smooth. Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:02:56 +1100 Reply-To: brownie@eck.net.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anne Brown Organization: Brown's of 'Snake Hill' Subject: Smoke flavour Comments: To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am interested in the recent string regarding smoking hives to either work them or to find the queen. I have never heard anyone mention, either her or i the *real* world, whether the fuel which produces the smoke makes any difference. As a child I watched my grandfather light up his smoker many times. He merely collected handfuls of litter from under the trees where he was working. Being in Australia this consisted almost entirely of eucalypt leaves, twigs and bark. The smell of eucalypt smoke, for humans anyway, conjurs up the smell of campfires and/or the smell of bushfires. My grandfather always said that if was the danger of bushfire which affected the bees, they thought there was going to be a fire so they quickly drank as much honey as they could which made them sleepy. I too usually use eucaypt litter, plus bark from particular species which smokes well. But I have used well rotted hessian bags as well as pine needles. The colour as well as well as the smell varies between the fuels, but I am unsore as to how the bees react. Are they any quieter using one or the other? I dislike the pine because of the rapide build up of resin in the smoker which is a pest to get out. Any comments. Anne Brown, Browns Busy Bees, Victoria, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 06:16:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gothoney@AOL.COM Subject: Re: White hand cream and furniture polish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need a formula for hand cream (preferably white) and furniture polish made with some honey and/or beeswax. Good shelf life is important. Anyone got a recipe? I'll trade it for my recipe for soap! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:58:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Eyre has made some interesting and acute observations. As someone who probably handles as many bees in a decade as he does in a week I certainly do not question his report of what he has seen but I do (with much hesitation) wonder about his conclusions. There are also gaps in the information he has supplied and the missing information might be relevant. Were the "exotics" he introduced of the same race as his usual strain? Did the (for want of a better word) hybrid bees produce more honey? There is plenty of documentation to support the theory that improvements to strains of bees can be made by introducing unrelated 'blood' from a different pure bred line of the same race. However, if the cross is made with a different race , for example ligustica with carnica or mellifera, then heterosis or 'hybrid vigor' will result. Subsequent crossings may result in mongrels of no particular merit except being able to survive and produce honey and, more importantly for somebody selling queens, unpredictability as to good or bad qualities. One of the effects of hybrid vigor is often bad temper. Another is better honey gathering, if necessary by stealing from other colonies. It will be no surprise then, that the hybrid colonies will be the first ones to rob those more afflicted by varroa. They just happened to get there first. The others would have got round to it eventually. With regard to the observation that temper often improves on requeening, this has often been reported. It shows that (in some ways contrary to what I have just typed) in these cases the problem is not in the genes but in the rearing or nutrition of the queen or the state of the colony. I have often noticed that the temper of an ordinarily docile colony will deteriorate prior to swarming, even before cells are made. I suspect the timing of the split may be a very relevant factor. If there is a resulting shortage of nurse bees compared to the amount of larvae (including queen larvae) to be fed then the queen may not be optimally fed which may have knock on effects later with her production of queen substance. It will not, however, affect her genes and therefore her worker or queen daughters. Could it be that the hybrids are doing so well that there are more bees between whom the limited supply of queen substance has to be shared? I pose these thoughts expecting a vigorous response from those who know a lot more than I do. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:24:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Plastic Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was using plastic inner covers to hold down the grass in front of colonies. I did not use them on the bees because they warp into a funnel shape and may drip condensation onto the cluster in the winter time. At the same time, I dislike the way lovely, old, wooden inner covers come apart when the bees glue them to the frames and hive bodies in spring and summer. My minor revelation has been to use plastic inner covers in spring and summer and wooden ones in winter. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:16:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Feeder (water) in Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some time ago, I followed a suggestion and put water-filled, division board feeders inside my hives to help keep the bee away from the neighbors' backyards. The water in the feeders gets to smelling like old gray water (mild sewage). Any suggestions? (I also get a surprise when I tip up the top box without lifting off the inner cover and slosh water out of the feeder.) Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Water Mist (Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried misting the bees with water yesterday and it worked fine on the first two colonies. The third colony was more defensive when I removed the inner cover and I got a sting on the wrist. Another bee stung me on the ankle when I was two car length's from the hive headed to get the smoker. With smoke, the bees in all five colonies were fine then and an hour later when I took off honey supers and in the evening when I put the supers back on. I used the mister the way I would have used a smoker. Any suggestions? Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:59:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: article on biotechnology in MIT's July/August Technology Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, In light of the recent discussion of biotechnology, I'd like to point out that the July/August issue of MIT's "Technology Review" magazine has a fairly good article on biotechnology entitled "Biotech Goes Wild". (In fact, it's the feature article for the July/August issue.) Technology Review has a web site; the full article is available online: Regards, James ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:46:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What a mess! Comments: To: beeman@kingston.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/4/99 3:06:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, beeman@NOSPAMKINGSTON.NET writes: > They have built burr comb > with honey every where. What a mess!! The boxes APPEAR to place the > frames at the same height. There are ten frames in each box and I am > conscious of the bee space. But apparently there is a difference > between the equipment. I think it could also be due to the size of the > colony, that they were bringing in nectar faster then they could draw > out the foundation on the new super?? Yes, there are variations between manufacturers, and this can be a problem, but it is not the main one. I am always sad when I find burr comb. It means that I did not have enough super space on the bees, and that I lost part of the honeyflow. Bees always need excess space well beyond what they actually fill, because nectar has a lot of water. This nectar must be stored somewhere, until the excess water is evaporated. The top super, at least, should be empty when the flow is over. It's a waste. It's like milking the cow, and letting the pail run over, instead of getting another pail. It also means that they probably plugged the brood area, shutting down the queen. I don't like to see brood production stop until fall when the queen should be shutting down. If there is a break in the brood cycle early in the season, you wind up with a lot of old bees. Diseases get concentrated; bees get mean; and fall honey is not gathered, because the bees have dwindled. Each time you experience a hive that is jammed with burr comb, it is a lesson to get on more supers, or get them on sooner the next year. And, if the flow is still on, get more supers on quick! It might be a good idea to check the brood area. If it is plugged with honey, take out a couple frames, and give that queen some empty comb to get her going again. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:22:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Freak Encounter with a Wild Swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our attorney lives on a small farm near here, and was doing some mowing yesterday. As Bill returned home, he passed under the low limbs of a holly tree and the roof of the partial cab of his tractor scooped off a swarm (which he had not seen) from its branches, dropping the cluster directly onto him and the hood of the tractor. He was stung about a hundred times on the face and arms. It could have been a real horror story, but Bill kept his wits about him. He lost his glasses, but got the tractor stopped and ran to his home, where his wife beat him with a towel to remove clinging bees. He then took 50 mg of benadryl. All the way to the hospital he was removing stingers. He said his head and shoulders were completely covered by the bees, and he was impressed at how heavy they were. It's unusual to have a swarm this late in the season, let along a big swarm. At the hospital, the emergency room was jammed up (holiday weekend), and he had to wait quite a while for attention. After waiting quite awhile, he was feeling better, so he came back home, took some more benadryl and went to bed. This morning, he went to church. The Lord was good to him. This man is extraordinarily intelligent and gifted, but the thing that impresses me even more is the way he handled this. I know some folks that would be ready to exterminate every bee in the universe, after such an incident. He has just accepted it as a freak accident, and lets it go at that. I told a tale on him at a meeting awhile back. I told how I had dreamed that I died and went to the pearly gates. St. Peter was sitting there in a folding chair, reading a newspaper. He didn't even put the paper down, just tilted it a bit so he could see me, and said, "Hi Dave. Come on in." Well I suppose I was glad about that, but the casualness kind of irritated me, and I stood there, thinking this over. Suddenly St. Peter jumped up and ran off. And a bunch of angels, in choir robes, with hymnals, appeared and began to assemble. St. Peter came back with a long red carpet and unrolled it. More angels joined up and began to play a fanfare with trumpets. The angels began to sing, and, to my amazement, up the red carpet comes Bill. After Bill had been welcomed like royalty and had gone on in, I was still standing there, as St. Peter came back to his folding chair. I told him I wasn't very happy about being almost ignored, while Bill got such a grand reception. He put his hand on my shoulder and looked me into the eye. He said. "I'm sorry, if it offended you, but face the facts. You've got to realize that guys like you are a dime-a-dozen. But this is the first lawyer we've ever had here!" Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Re: Honey Extractors Comments: To: BobCan@TDPI.Com, bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:38:34 -0400 Bob writes: >I was looking into purchasing an extractor... >... 10 hives and look at this as a hobby. >I don't mind cranking.... Bob, Check the nine frame import available from Rossman Apiaries (1-800-333-7677) or Brushy Mountain Bee Supplies (1-800-233-7929). For the $325 price (including stand) you won't bee able to find a better deal on a new extractor. Baskets to hold three 9-1/8" frames tangentially come in the box when delivered. For an additional 320 bucks (double the initial cost) you can have it delivered with a 220v speed controlled motor... probably not worth the investment for a small operation. Our local association held an extracting workshop last weekend (June 26th) and evaluated the performance of 2 frame hand crank (two different manufactures), 2 frame reversible hand crank, 3 frame hand crank, 4 frame hand crank, 6 frame radial hand crank, 6 frame radial power and the 9 frame radial hand crank. For the second year... NO Contest, the nine frame hand crank out performed even the powered model. The big advantages are the low initial cost which includes the stand, smooth operating gears, cages to hold brood box size frames and the capacity to hold a full super load. No need to try to balance the last few frames to finish the job. Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:36:23 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Paintng Drones/Queen Marking Comments: cc: Glenn.G.King@Valley.net, Larissa LeMay , Norm Gregoire , Thomas Gregoire , Dennis Marandos , James M Fitton +1 508 960 2577 , Michael.McAmis@Valley.net, Mike@endor.com, W.Kimura@Valley.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, Spring chores are done, summer nectar flow is winding down, the grass is cut and cleaning the garage can wait until fall. I spent a very enjoyable Independance Day weekend afternoon practicing marking queens by catching drones (male honey bees) and marking them. All toll, I did about 20 of them. I used light blue and light green "White Out," to dot them. It's what I had on hand. White does show up the best and I will use that color next time. Catching them was quite easy. I waited for one to leave the hive, and grabbed him with my bare fingers. I sat in a lawn chair dressed in shorts tee shirt and sandals. The only sting that I got was from a bee working a stalk of clover which was caught between my sandal and bare toes when I left for the day. Practicing on drones is much more cost efficient than using store bought queens and killing them while gaining the dexterity and confidence that only the real thing can provide. I will be glad to do a show and tell here if there is anyone willing to try it themselves. It's a lot of fun, and drones do not sting. Grist Mill Apiary Ernie Gregoire de AA1IK Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 07/03/99 18:36:23 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:06:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Plastic Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Come November when the voters kick the drones out look for corrugated plastic they use to make the signs- It makes a pretty good inner cover - costs nothing and there is no heartbreak trashing the ones that get ratty. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:04:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Plastic Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim: This is my 66th year of keeping bees, over 100 colonies for most of those years. Never have I seen inner covers STUCK DOWN. Are you SURE that you are providing the bees with enough super space? Bees only build burr comb on frame tops if they are short of super space. If your experience indicate that your colonies normally produce 3 supers in spring by July 4th, they should have at least 4 and preferably 5 supers in place on the colony by about May 1st for PA. See some of my writings about this. Older writings are on http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ click the lower right image Newer writings are on http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html I despise Plastic! Hope I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:15:04 -0400 Reply-To: beeman@NOSPAMkingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: what a mess! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks guys, Yes I was pretty sure I was at some fault for the burr comb. Gosh as for shutting the queen down I have 3 supers on and they are all full of bees. I'm extracting this week and will replace the boxes immediately. Because I'm out of supers. This is the first year that I have been out of supers. I usually have a couple left for insurance. I love the constant learning the little ladies demand of me. Thanks for the advice! Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:57:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Re: Feeder (water) in Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:16:05 -0400 Tim Sterrett writes: >I put water-filled, division board feeders inside my hives >The water gets to smelling like old gray water (mild sewage). > Any suggestions? Tim; I don't have any experience with plain water but, in my feed syrup to reduce the growth of 'slimy stuff' I add a small amount (less than 1/4 cup to 5 gallons) of Apple Cider Vinegar. No critical measurement just a splash from the bottle. I would think that as little as a tablespoon/gallon of plain water would supply enough acid to keep the water 'fresh'. Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:33:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Splits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All David Eyre wrote as follows: > I was talking of self made, or emergency queens, made when the hive is >not expecting a lost queen. The hive goes into emergency mode and 3-4 days >later you'll find, but few take the time to look, sealed queen cells. > It takes 3 days to hatching, so those sealed at 3 days after emergency >only get a 6 day feeding, instead of 9 which is normal. Perhaps I am mis understanding what David Eyre wishes to convey, but I do not understand the above. A normal queen larva is fed for only 5 days, (3 days as an egg, 5 days unsealed, 8 days sealed). Where did 6 days feeding and 9 days feeding come from?. Is David saying that pressure of circumstances can force or otherwise persuade the bees to alter the times that the normal metamorphoses take place?. I have not come across this before. I understand that for any species of bee, the times as egg, larva and pupa were fixed within very small tolerances. Are there any references for a contrary view point. >Someone once wrote, 'you can always tell a beekeeper, but not much'. You can sure tell this beekeeper much as he has much to learn. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:54:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: White hand cream and furniture polish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: Try the book "Super Formulas Arts and Crafts: How to make more than 360 useful products that contain honey and beeswax" by Elaine C. White Valley Hills Press 8 Valley Hills, Roue 6 Starkville, MS 39759 USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 22:16:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Re: Hand cream & furniture polish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 06:16:02 EDT Gothoney@AOL.COM writes: >I need a formula for hand cream and furniture polish >made with some honey and/or beeswax Gothoney...Get "Super Formulas". A good resource for "more than 360 useful products that contain honey and beeswax". $14.95 from Valley Hills Press, 1864 Ridgeland Drive, Starkville, MS 39759 or telephone toll free: 1-800-232-7102 Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:24:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Water Mist (Bees) and Feeder In-Reply-To: <199907041920.PAA25535@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:10 PM 7/3/99 -0400, you wrote: > I tried misting the bees with water yesterday and it worked fine on >the first two colonies. The third colony was more defensive when I >removed the inner cover and I got a sting on the wrist. My best results have been with a little smoke followed by water as needed. A wet bee just does not seem to want to fly and seems much calmer in general. The deeper I need to get into the hive the better the water seems to work for the overall effort. As for water to keep the bees out of the swimming pool, have you ever wondered what an entrance feeder was good for? After I found out what a bad robbing situation looked like I found that you can keep the feeders full of plain water. It sure beats throwing them out :) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 23:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Feeder (water) in Hive I would think that adding some vinegar to the water should help out. It helps in my feeders so that mold doesn't grow like it will if I don't add the vinegar. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:46:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Plastic Inner Covers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Tim Sterrett writes: >I dislike the way lovely, old, wooden inner covers >come apart when the bees glue them to the frames ... Why not paint the inner covers with vaseline - this will reduce the glueing propensity of the bees, and make opening up the hive much easier. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:57:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anglin Subject: Re: Honey Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an old galvanized (AI root) 2 frame extractor (motorized). It looks just like the picture of the two frame reversible extractor o page 38 of the '99 Walter T. Kelly catalog.(Except for the motor) The tank is not in bad shape, but I intend to coat it with food grade epoxy to keep metals from leaching into my honey. I can also clean up and coat the frame with epoxy, but the baskets are a mess! I could have them sandblasted, and try to epoxy them, but I was wondering if stainless steel baskets are available that will fit this old machine? Any suggestions on restoration/ refurbishing? Thanks! Ellen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:02:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cindy Shortell Subject: Honey Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have checked my bees last week and since I am very new to this beekeeping I have a couple of questions. My bees have been in place since the beginning of May. I checked the hives and it appears that not much honey is being stored in the honey supers, they are still drawing out the comb. There is quite a bit of stored honey in the brood supers. Will they have enough honey to make it through the winter, up here in Upstate NY, near Lake, Placid? (winters come early up here, and I was told that I will need to start treating for mites etc..mid August, so no honey is stored during the 45 days, right?) I don't much care if I have extra honey for myself, but what if there is not enough stored for them??what would I do? Will next year be easier on the bees because they will already have drawn comb, and not need to do all of that work? Also, for the past couple of days, one of my hives seems to have alot of activity by the entrance....approx. 2-3 hundred bees, appearing to be walking forward a few steps, then walking back a few steps???? I have off set by honey supers a 1/2 inch or so for ventilation, as it is quite warm for upstate NY these days..whew! Thanks for all of your help, Cindy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:54:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Honey Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellen wrote: > > I have an old galvanized (AI root) 2 frame extractor (motorized). > It looks just like the picture of the two frame reversible extractor > in the Walter T. Kelly catalog. > > if stainless steel baskets are available > > coat it with food grade epoxy to keep metals from leaching > into my honey. *********************** For many years, I used an (ancient) Root two-frame, reversible extractor. Kelly sold me stainless extractor baskets for it. I coated the old Root tank with epoxy (from Kelley). Then, by a stroke of luck, I was given a Kelley stainless steel tank, two-frame, reversible extractor. The Kelley seemed to be a copy of the Root and the Kelley parts did not seem to work together as well as the old Root parts. So, in the end, I used the stainless steel tank and baskets with the old Root hardware (crank, gears, framework). Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:49:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Osborne Subject: Gnu Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm new to this wonderful world of bees. I have a fairly strong hive in Sonoma County in northern Calif. This colony was started from a 3# package on April 10. Yesterday, I removed 5 frames of perfectly capped comb honey. It was one of the most exciting days I've had in a while. The stuff tastes like no other honey I've ever had (a bit of pride showing here...sorry) Five of the frames I left were not capped on one side of the frames. All were oriented to the East in the hive. Is this normal, ie: with cooler morning temps, are the bees reluctant to work the East side of the combs? Should I reverse the frames' orientation in the hive? This colony is really strong. I reversed the deeps a few weeks ago and have another medium super half full of honey. I added another super yesterday and returned the 5 half uncapped frames on a third, on top. The question: I'm leaving for three weeks on vacation will that be enough space? The deeps are VERY heavy, lots of honey down there, full of bees. I don't plan to harvest any more honey this year, as I want to insure the colony survival this winter. I'm really suprised at how much honey bees can make... Thanks for the help. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:14:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lisa Siciliano Subject: searching for samples-honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My name is Lisa Siciliano, and I am a high school student in Ohio who is doing research on the antibacterial properties of honey. I have been trying to gather different kinds of honey for my experiments, but I have come up very short. I am looking for about 12 oz or less of many different kinds of raw, pure, honey. The ones that I am looking for are: alfalfa, buckwheat, chestnut, eucalyptus, heather, honey-locust, lavender, linden, mountain, pinetree, rosemary, sage, apple-blossom, sourwood, tupelo, sunflower, avacado, basswood, goldenrod, tulip poplar, and canola. Being a student, I have a very limited budget. Can anyone please point me in the right direction for people who could supply me any of these or other types of honey? Thank you, Lisa Siciliano P.S. You can reply to me directly if you wish. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:46:59 -0700 Reply-To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Hasta B. Shasta" Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying - Good News! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the issue of compensation, what are the damage limits to an action in small claims court in your state? In California, the limit is $5,000, which would cover the costs should all my bees be killed and their hives burned. Although I am in sympathy with your oft-repeated demands for criminal prosecution, the reality of crowded court calendars and the levels of violent crime make such prosecution unlikely. The advantages of using small claims court include no legal costs to the plaintiff beyond filing fees and the cost of giving notice via registered mail. Most of all, court ordered compensation will discourage further misuse of pesticides. Pollinator@AOL.COM wrote: > > I am asking for criminal prosecution, > because the district has been cited before, because the director told me > personally that bees were not considered, and because each such violation is > a seizure of property from beekeepers without compensation, a violation of > the Bill of Rights. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:17:46 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Mosquito spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the following comments to Dave Green's analysis of my discussion on mosquito spraying: 1. In number 14, I said that beekeepers do not have the legal "right" to place bee hives where they want to and then expect others to protect them from hazards. By that I meant that: a) we don't have a constitutional or legal "right" as that term is used in law. I was also saying that beekeepers have often put their bees in harms way and suffered large bee kills without due thought and consideration of the potential hazards in the area e.g.: placing an apiary downslope from a crop to be sprayed with an agricultural chemical, putting an apiary on a wet land where mosquitoes have been sprayed for many years, putting an apiary in the shadow of a tree fruit crop where aerial applications will fall on the apiary, putting an apiary in a "draw" or small valley where chemicals legally applied up slope move down the valley with normal air movement. b) and beekeepers needn't expect others to protect their bees when they do not take due caution themselves. Though this statement isn't meant to excuse persons who fail to comply with labels, state law and regulations about the proper use of chemicals. 2. Unfortunately some beekeepers still think that they should be able to keep bees in an agricultural area without any bee loss from pesticides. That hasn't been the case almost since pesticides were first used. Here in Yakima I have a cumulative loss of 6-8 pounds of bees per hive from April to August! And I don't like it! The apiary is on a hill top. The reasons for the loss: i) growers who don't think about bees after their pollination need is over, ii) applicators who don't read and follow the label, as Dave Green says, iii) the pesticide label language on residual chemicals do not protect pollinators!, iv) growers spraying large acreages that can't be sprayed in the time, temperature, and wind "windows" available so they spray when they shouldn't be spraying, deciding to take the risk they won't get caught, in lieu of having crop damage, v) growers who spray their orchard and allow the chemical to fall onto bloom on the orchard floor, vi) growers who spray after their rented bees have been removed but their neighbors still have bees being used for pollination. 3. I don't know where the idea got started that beekeepers should move their bees from legitimate and appropriate apiary sites because a grower wants to spray a pesticide. Growers seem to expect it nowadays. They don't realize that bees must live and be reasonably protected or they won't be around the next spring when they are needed again for orchard pollination. Here in Washington it is like Dave suggests in SC, you move bees from one application area to another, and maybe to a worse hazard area. We do not have a state law here that beekeepers must move their bees when asked to do so. I tell growers that beekeepers can't move bees after they are set down for the summer honey crop and explain the difficulties and bee behavior much as Dave describes them. If the bees are being used for pollinating a seed crop I tell growers they have no right to expect the bees to be moved. Some beekeepers don't have the equipment to move hives until after the honey is removed. And the grower needing the bees for pollination should be able to get his crop pollinated without his neighbors killing off the field force. Growers may need to suffer some crop loss to protect bees. 4. Dave suggests that he'd "have to charge $150 or more per hive for pollination, to make it a viable business." Here in WA pollination fees should be $50 per hive or more to make commercial beekeeping a viable business. (More on that in another post on 'pricing and cost.') Yakima orchard rental rates probably average $35-38. But beekeepers being who they are, some rent for $28 to $30 in the same area as those who rent for $35. Then there are those who bring in thousands of hives and set them for $22 "to get the orders!" Please explain to me that kind of thinking in today's economic reality in commercial beekeeping. 5. I agree that Dave and all beekeepers should expect implementation and enforcement of the law by regulators. Having said that, Dave knows that it isn't quite that simple because of the realities in the enforcement community. They have regulatory procedures to follow which often don't seem to match the penalty to the offense. And I've been told by growers that the penalty is just another cost of doing business when they have to protect their crop from a pest. (Memories of beekeepers using unregistered products on mites.) 6. Dave takes a shot at me for having a "salary, a pension, and many perks" and asks when he will be permitted to get on board. When I was operating a bee supply business I made an analysis of the future of the business given the bee industry economic climate at the time. I decided it would not be productive to stay in that business. I also considered becoming a commercial beekeeper. I talked with beekeepers in several states, observed their businesses (age and condition of hives, warehouses, rolling stock and other equipment), asked questions about their investment, costs and net profits, and observed their living standards. I decided from a business management perspective that I wouldn't put my money into such an effort. Instead I replied to a job announcement in the department of agriculture and was hired. We all make decisions in life and we live with the results. 7. I agree with Dave that "it's hard to be 'nice' to someone who pulls you down, or even those who could help but just look away." Unfortunately, this reality brings us back to the arduous task of working with individuals and groups to improve our business climate. I know well the risks, the prodigious effort required, the long hours, the negotiations with diverse interests, the discouragement, and the minimal progress that is sometimes made (and a little satisfaction), as anyone who has followed my career can tell you. And the salary, pension, and perks, don't equal the effort that I have contributed. But many people can say this about their jobs, including beekeepers. So I'm not unique from that perspective. 8. Dave is "confident that he could make a good living, if it weren't for pesticide damage from label violations." I can't know Dave's business environment. Are his pesticide related losses really equal to his net profit in any given year? Do other beekeepers in SC experience the same reality? Do beekeepers in other states experience this reality? Does this suggest the importance of beekeepers getting together as a cohesive group to change this environment, especially in an effort to reduce pesticide losses? 9. Given the economic reality in the beekeeping industry here in WA it is quite apparent that the industry will continue to slip and slide for the next five to ten years. The average age of commercial beekeepers is probably 55-60 which means they will want to retire in a few years. When they sell their operation and after they pay capital gains taxes, will they have enough to retire on? Several beekeepers from various parts of the country have discussed these issues with me in recent years so I feel that I have at least some appreciation for the complexity of their business realities and retirement decisions. What will change in the beekeeping industry to make it profitable enough to attract young people and families into the business? Will they be able to buy an operation from a retiree? What will the true value of a bee operation be if no one can afford the cash to buy or experience to operate the business? It is my opinion that growers won't find the bees they need for pollination in a few years. Then the dynamics of our business environment will change. Unfortunately we don't seem to be able to make the changes before the crash comes, so we are forced to accept the difficulties, react to them the best we can, and just hope everything comes out alright in the end. But I fear that many will be lost along the way. Dave says it this way: "Sooner or later, probably sooner, our bubble is going to burst." I admire Dave for his forth rightness in discussing his perceptions on these and other issues. Perhaps our exchange of ideas will provoke other ideas in our readers and hopefully urge some to take a leadership role in helping create change in the business environment in which we find ourselves. Best regards, James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:57:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying - Good News! Comments: To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net, BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-05 19:23:11 EDT, jslavett@worldnet.att.net (Hasta B. Shasta) wrote: << On the issue of compensation, what are the damage limits to an action in small claims court in your state? In California, the limit is $5,000, which would cover the costs should all my bees be killed and their hives burned. Although I am in sympathy with your oft-repeated demands for criminal prosecution, the reality of crowded court calendars and the levels of violent crime make such prosecution unlikely. The advantages of using small claims court include no legal costs to the plaintiff beyond filing fees and the cost of giving notice via registered mail. Most of all, court ordered compensation will discourage further misuse of pesticides. >> It seems like a good thought, in theory. In practice, it is extremely hard to make it work. Beekeepers who experience losses know what it cost them in lost production, in extra labor, extra feeding, etc. But it is extremely hard to prove this to the satisfaction of a court of law. Pictures of dead bees are meaningless to judges. And when the field force is dropped in the field, you don't even have that. That is why I have increasingly focused on the violation, not collection or salvage afterwords. Another good reason is that a citation for a violation would be extremely helpful in establishing liability, and that is therefore the first point of action to be taken. I know I get to be a real annoyance to the enforcement people. But I have, on a few occasions, gotten some enforcement, simply by dogged assertiveness, sometimes to the point of almost doing the case for them. The thing that always amazes me is how much one enforcement action acts as a preventative (for a while). Applicators get the word out in a hurry, when there is any enforcement going on. I probably also sound shrill among beekeepers. But for many beekeepers who do not know the law, it is a revelation that bee kills come from label violations. Many think that a plane flew over and sprayed their hives. It doesn't occur to them that the bees are poisoned at the feed source, not at the hive, and they don't know that the bees have the legal right of way there. How 'bout an informal poll? How many beekeepers on this list have suffered losses from pesticide misuse? How many have reported the violation? How many enforcement people actually came and investigated? How many violators have been cited? How many beekeepers have tried to collect damages? How many have succeeded in collecting? Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene http://members.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop on the Internet (honey & beeswax candles) http://members.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:30:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cindy's questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cindy, a new beekeeper in the coldest part of NYS asks about her new bee hives. I think we met at the beginner's seminar at Betterbee. Sounds as if you have come a long way since. You asked "I was told that I will need to start treating for mites etc..mid August, so no honey is stored during the 45 days, right?)" Actually, lot's of honey will be stored during this period; from goldenrod, aster, purple loosetrife and others. However, all this honey must be left for the bees if it is stored while the strips are on. No, any fluvalinate that gets into the honey will not harm the bees in any way. What you are observing is normal; in the first year the bees will concentrate on drawing out comb and there will probably not be any extra for you. All the honey you see in the brood nest is also normal and will help sustain the hive during winter. You need 80 pounds of honey for the winter in your area. That translates into about 120 pounds with all your wood. Check around October 1 to see if you have enough. A simple way to check is to put a piece of 2 X 4 under one side of the bottom board. Lift the other side and slide a bathroom scale underneath. It will support 50% of the weight of the hive, so if it reads 60 pounds or better your bees are all set for the winter. If not, feed a sugar syrup consisting of 2 parts sugar to one water. Use very hot water, and stir with a drywall mixer inside a 5 gallon pail. Add 1/4 cup of vinegar to retard mold and fungus. Let cool and feed. Yes, next year will be much easier on the bees, when they have lots of drawn comb. The activity you are seeing at the entrance is called "washboarding". No one really knows why the bees do it, but it seems to have something to do with ventilation. It is entirely normal. Best of luck, Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:55:44 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: Is perception reality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII <> Hello Gang, Around here, the people who I talk to ,upon finding out about my being a beekeeper, look at me as a semi-brave, semi-lunatic, and full time excentric. I like that! Grist Mill Apiary Ernie Gregoire Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 07/03/99 14:55:44 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:39:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Reduced Size Queen Excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/3/99 9:36:44 AM EST, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: > I have read in a recent post that bees do not like travelling > > through a > > queen excluder I don't much use excluders myself but I have a few around for special projects. Bees don't much like going through to draw out bare foundation but if you let them start a bit and then put the excluder they get the idea. I keep an old excluder in the truck as a template for picking up scrap wood for my hive projects and another to drain cappings on. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:35:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Why to dance? Comments: To: Social Insect Biology Research Comments: cc: ENTOMO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA, HPSST-L@POST.QUEENSU.CA, greenber@WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU, berwick@ai.mit.edu, chomsky@MIT.EDU, schram@bio.uva.nl, joschmid@U.Arizona.EDU, edwards@tucson.ars.ag.gov, buchmann@tucson.ars.ag.gov, BCULTURE@aol.com, IBRA@cardiff.ac.uk, Dadant@dadant.com, wmangum@mwc.edu, Dewsbury@psych.ufl.edu, smilius@sciserv.org, fltdeck1@IX.NETCOM.COM, wenner@onlinemac.com, easugden@mindspring.com, bayer@ceo.sbceo.k12.ca.us Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 29 June, Doug Yanega responded to some comments provided by Julian O'Dea, with regard to whether bee "language" exists. However, statements made by Dr. Yanega do not mesh with much that one can find in published accounts. Patrick Wells and I covered the problems raised by Dr.Yanega quite extensively in our 1990 book: Wenner, A.M. and P.H. Wells. Anatomy of a Controversy: The Question of a "Language" Among Bees. Columbia University Press. In that connection, consider some of the comments by Dr. Yanega (not in his sequence): 1) Yanega: "It's already been shown that bees can be recruited by dances with no odors, albeit with reduced effectiveness." My response: Von Frisch wrote: "In performing this experiment I succeeded with all kinds of flowers with the exception of flowers without any scent..." (Wenner, A.M. [with K. von Frisch]. The language of bees. BEE WORLD. 74:90-98.) In our extensive experimentation in the late 1960s and early 1970s, we found that a total elimination of odors from experiments resulted in absolutely no recruitment. Odor artifacts, though, can confound the issue. Even something so seemingly mundane as the odor of paper interfered with experimental results. We summarized that problem in Chapter 5 and 8, as well as on pages 320-330 (Excursus OS: Odor Search by Flying Insects) of our 1990 book. One can also read the following more recent publications: 1998 Wenner, A.M. Odors, wind and colony foraging - Part I of three parts: The need for odor. American Bee Journal. 138:746-748. (Oct. issue). 1998 Wenner, A.M. Odors, wind and colony foraging - Part II of three parts: The role of wind direction. American Bee Journal. 138:807-810 (Nov. issue). 1998 Wenner, A.M. Odors, wind and colony foraging - Part III of three parts: Insights from beehunting. American Bee Journal. 138:897-899 (Dec. issue). 2) Yanega: "Occam's razor is not just 'the simplest hypothesis', but 'the simplest hypothesis *consistent with all the evidence*'" My reponse: We also covered this topic on pages 246-250 in our 1990 book (cited above). I commend Dr. Yanega for his insistence that we consider "all the evidence." In the meantime, though, bee language proponents have concentrated on supportive evidence for their favored hypothesis to the virtual exclusion of evidence not in agreement with that hypothesis. For more on that point, one can consult the following 1998 reference: Wenner, A.M. Honey bee "dance language" controversy. Pages 823-836 in Greenberg, C. and M. Hara, (eds.), Comparative Psychology: A Handbook . Garland Publishing, New York. 3) Yanega: " ...it's up to you [O'Dea] to prove that bees can recruit just as well without dancing." My response: I'm sorry, but reponsibility rests with the person who presses an exotic hypothesis, not with one who doubts that hypothesis (witness the "cold fusion" episode). As I recall, some Russian researchers published papers back in the 1950s that contained results from experiments where they had recruited bees to crops by using odor alone. 4) Yanega: "Another obvious problem with [the O'Dea] theory is that it is a phenomenal waste of energy if it does not aid in communication." My response: We covered this topic quite fully on pages 362-366 of our 1990 book (Excursus TEL: Teleology). Teleological and anthropomorphic assumptions actually hinder progress in science. We provided some examples of "waste" in Nature in that excursus. Consider another example --- oak reproduction. An oak tree can live for hundreds of years and produce untold thousands of acorns during that time. Yet, ON AVERAGE, only ONE of its acorns will germinate and live until it produces acorns. I thank Dr. Yanega for providing the opportunity for clarification of this complex matter and will mail him some relevant materials. In the meantime we still await Occam's razor to fall and bring closure to this controversy. And we still have no scientifically concise statement of the language hypothesis that accomodates all known facts, one that can be tested experimentally. Instead, all earlier expressions of that hypothesis no longer suffice. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ********** * * You cannot hold on to the past; when you're holding on to the past, you're * protecting yourself and stealing from future generations." * * NASA Chief, Dan Goldin * LOS ANGELES TIMES - 1 July 1999 * **************************************************************************** ********** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Water Mist (Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I also have not had success with the water spray. Each of the hives /i tried it on became more aggressive. I noted it as experience and continue with smoke. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Tim Sterrett wrote: > > I tried misting the bees with water yesterday and it worked fine on > the first two colonies. The third colony was more defensive when I > removed the inner cover and I got a sting on the wrist. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:47:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hank Mishima Subject: Re: Mosquito spraying - Good News! Comments: To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net In-Reply-To: "Hasta B. Shasta" 's message of Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:46:59 -0700 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) In Oregon, you cannot represent yourself in small claims court if you have incorporated. You also cannot put any liens on real property from judgements. You most likely will have to get a collector and/or attorney if your defendant refuses to pay, but it may send a noteworthy message about bees/beekeepers and you will be a pain to that person for some time. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:43:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Cindy's questions In-Reply-To: <199907061306.JAA24716@listserv.albany.edu> from "Lloyd Spear" at Jul 6, 99 08:30:33 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd recommended the following for fall feeding: > sugar syrup consisting of 2 parts sugar to one water. Use very hot water, > and stir with a drywall mixer inside a 5 gallon pail. Add 1/4 cup of > vinegar to retard mold and fungus. Let cool and feed. I am very interested by this mention of adding vinegar to prevent mold. I've never seen this mentioned before in any of the books or journals I've read. I have been keeping feed syrup available to my three hives continuously so that they would be able to draw comb without interruption, (as recommended by several sources), but up until now they haven't been taking the syrup very fast because there has been a good nectar flow on. Because of this, I've seen some mold starting to grow in my feeder pails after about three weeks. To keep the mold down, I've been taking the pails off after three weeks, scrubbing out the pails with chlorine bleach solution to sterilize them, and replacing the syrup with fresh syrup regardless of whether they had eaten it all or not. So, I have two questions: 1. How much of a problem is it if the syrup gets a bit moldy? 2. How much does vinegar extend the life of 1:1 and 2:1 sugar syrup, and does it have any undesirable effects on the bees? Thanks. Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:35:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Billett Subject: Small Hive Beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am in the process of building a new home and this last weekend I was laying sod with my dad. While gasping for breath hunkered over the wheel barrow (in the 100 degree heat!), I saw something scurring around in the dirt left in the bottom of the barrow. Needless to say, they looked very very similar to the Small Hive Beetle. Over the course of the day, I saw maybe 10-15 beetles. I did collect a few in a bottle for later examination. Are their any Sod Pests which are similar in appearance to the Small Hive beetle? The Sod came from a turf company in the South Eastern most tip of South Carolina (Hilton Head, Savanah GA Area) This area is infested with Hive beetles. The Hive beetle is noted as a beehive related pest (some reports of Mellons, etc in SC as well), Is there another habitat that can support the hive beetle? Is this a mode of spreading the Small hive beetle that has not been investigated? Anyone in the SC area who could direct me to someone/someplace where I can get a confirmation on the beetle, please let me know. Rod Billett Hobbiest, Lexington, SC USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:39:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anglin Subject: Fw: Smoke flavour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Anglin To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Smoke flavour > Much Snippage > > ...whether the fuel which produces the > > smoke makes any difference. .... Are they any > > quieter using one or the other? ...> > > I have found that the bees seem to "object" to some fuels. Some newspapers > produce an acrid smoke which seems to annoy the bees. Fabrics also produce > different qualities of smoke. Synthetics are no good because of the gummy > mess they leave, and the oily smoke they produce. I have had very good luck > with most 100% cotton fabrics, and with burlap feed sacks. Of the fabrics I > have tried- here are my findings. > 100% cotton denim- factory washed and softened. This is one of my > favorites- burns slowly, and burns for a long time. Produces lots of > pleasant smelling smoke. > 100% cotton denim- not factory washed, still stiff, washed once to > remove sizing. Hard to ignite, but burns for a really long time. Smoke not > as mellow as in the washed down denim. (Maybe due to more dye in fabric?) > Printed flannel (From printed flannel bed sheets) Washed twice to > remove sizing. This is disappointing. Ignites rapidly, but tends to go out > unexpectedly. Either produced tons of smoke, and burns out rapidly, or > suffocates itself. OK for starting other fabrics. > Chambray, muslin and other topweight 100% cotton fabrics. These burn > very well, but beware of heavily dyed fabrics- some may have unpleasant > smoke. > Terry cloth (From bath towels) This is terrific! Ignites rapidly, > produces tons of smoke, even when packed tightly into the smoker, and seldom > goes out before all is consumed. Does burn more rapidly than denim. > Burlap from feed sacks. Ignites well, burns for a fairly long time, and > has fairly pleasant smelling smoke. Unpleasant to handle and cut up. Often > musty smelling. Burns as well as denim, but may spit up more bits of > floating ash. > > I have tried all these fabrics because I work in a Textile laboratory, > and I can take home scraps of leftover test fabrics. I am always watching > for fabrics that will make good fuel. > A suggestion- the Salvation Army and goodwill stores in my area have > periodic "Bag days" where you can get a grocery bag stuffed with as much > clothing as you can fit for a fixed price- usually a dollar or two. This is > a great opportunity to get lots of old denim jeans for fuel quite cheaply. > You can also talk to the manager of your local thrift stores, some are > willing to set aside unsaleable jeans, etc. and sell them to you for a bulk > price. Just make sure you run them thru a quick wash before you cut them > up, just in case they have insecticide on them. (unlikely, but a > possibility) > > Ellen > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:16:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Economics: Was Mosquito spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JamesCBach wrote: > 9. Given the economic reality in the beekeeping industry here in WA it is > quite apparent that the industry will continue to slip and slide for the > next five to ten years. The average age of commercial beekeepers is > probably 55-60 which means they will want to retire in a few years. > What will change in the beekeeping industry to make it profitable enough to > attract young people and families into the business? I noticed 3 years ago, the exact same situation here in Virginia, I can count on one hand the number of beekeepers that showup to state meetings, under the age of 50. Most of them are University researchers. The vast majority are retired at least once and by casual visual inspection the age is taking it's toll. Many will have to discontinue beekeeping of any real size as it becomes impossible to continue the backbreaking work. > It is my opinion that growers won't find the bees they need > for pollination in a few years. Then the dynamics of our business > environment will change. Growers have begun approaching me with innovative plans to ensure they get bees next year (and it is only July). They include paying 50% down in Fall so that I don't have to borrow to buy new equipment to expand to cover the order, finding me an additional contract to cover another crop, finding me a wintering site at no cost, providing a means to protect from bear at their cost, providing for selling honey at their upick or stand with no markup, providing labor to help me unload. Loaning an unused trailer. Most of these are not costing the grower additional money as they may simply alter a task they currently do. It sure may save me additional time/money though. These things tell me the dynamics are already changing and I will continue to eye the business side while maintaining my regular day job. It will only get worse. I cannot foresee a turnaround soon. My biggest problem will be in maintaining a small enough business to keep a regular job. I'm not sure I see a market large enough an a regional level to support 1,000 hives necessary to maintain a standard of living. > But I fear that many will be lost along the way. Dave says it > this way: "Sooner or later, probably sooner, our bubble is going to burst." > > > Best regards, > > James C. Bach > jcbach@yvn.com In Eastern VA the growers can't get the bees and some of them are just coming to the realization that the crops are irregular partially because of it. (It seems alfalfa growers here think Honeybees are a pest because they must be "protected" from pesticide spraying. I expect to be carefully renting to the enlightened of them in the next 5 years. ) I know my niche is to rent to those requiring too few colonies to attract the attention of the only large commercial operation in the area. The plan is to incrementally bring the rental prices up to a profitable level and rent each colony as many times as possible (3 in some cases). Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:05:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Edited post Re: Honey Prices/Marketing Tips In-Reply-To: <199907031250.IAA09965@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > This message was originally submitted by jrossman@SURFSOUTH.COM to the BEE-L > list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of a previous submission. > > ----------------- Original message (ID=4E2F84A2) (54 lines) > Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 08:43:24 -0400 > From: "JOSEPH F. ROSSMAN" > Reply-To: jrossman@surfsouth.com sues and Bee Biology > Subject: Re: Honey Prices/Marketing Tips > > > On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Smart, Billy Y wrote: > > > > > Has anyone ever tried selling honey and/or honey products over the internet? > > It is interesting to see the discussion about selling honey on the net. > You might want to check out the site gahoney.com as they seem to be > doing a very good job. One of the things you mention is the shipping in > glass. It is my experience that in order to accomplish getting your > product to your customer in good shape and still in the container you > had better revert to plastic and still pack the product very good. > Another point to consider in selling honey on the net is to offer your > honey by specific variety rather than just honey.(basswood, clover, > orange, etc.) The national Honey Board is working on a program at the > present time to promote honey by variety and is at the present time > collecting samples of different varieties to identify the various > properties in them so as to develop a good promotion program along that > line. You can also contact the office of the NHB for more information or > visit the honey board site at honey.com or nhb.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:44:39 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: Honey Extractors Comments: To: BobCan@TDPI.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't mind cranking although >if I could find an extractor for a small amount more with a motor I would >spend the extra money. Is there a brand/manufacture that someone might >recommend for a hobbyist? > My uncle gave me an old extractor which had the crank removed, a nut and and a wooden holder attached. It is operated with a hand drill which can be set on the stand. I haven't used the drill with it, so can't report on how it works. I have only two hives now and simply crush & strain my honey. I may be crazy, but I think it tastes better than extracted. Linda in Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Used wax processing tank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wanted, used Maxant Wax Processing Tank. Contact LloydSpear@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:43:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Vinegar to retard mold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim asks "1. How much of a problem is it if the syrup gets a bit moldy? 2. How much does vinegar extend the life of 1:1 and 2:1 sugar syrup, and does it have any undesirable effects on the bees?" I have no idea if the mold or fungus is harmful. I think it affects the taste and it will get to the point when the bees will not take it. I use 1/4 cup to 5 gallons of syrup, which is a tiny amount. I have never observed any adverse affect on the bees, and it doesn't seem to inhibit their taking it. (I can't taste the vinegar at this dilution.) It is hard to say how much it extends the life, but after two weeks I don't see any mold in what little syrup is remaining. I don't think I have had syrup on for longer than 2 weeks...in other words, I feed amounts that are consumed in two weeks or less. Hope this helps, Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:18:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Roy E. Roper" Subject: Hive Beetle Photograph Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Is there a WWW site that has photographs of the Hive Beetle? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:09:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Hive Beetle Photograph There are some good hive beetle photographs as the following site: http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/aethina.pdf Regards, Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:43:12 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: Honey Prices/Marketing Tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >It just occured to me that one use of the net in retail sales by the >producer would be to have a geographically indexed guide to bee keepers >who do sell retail. > Awesome idea. I have friends in Ohio, California and Maine who are having trouble finding LOCAL honey. Is there a list where I can find this info for them? I always tell them to check with their county Agriculture agent. Do all counties have an Ag agent? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:46:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rod, Just get hold of Laurence Cutts, Chief Apiary Inspector for Florida. One of his inspectors, David Westervelt, is the real knowledge about the SHB. They are a real problem; and have been found wintered over in Minnesota, so all of our eastern states are about to be infected. I surely believe that your own Dr. Mike Hood knows a great deal about them because they were found in many shipments shipped by a South Carolina breeder. E-Mail Mike at: mhood@clemson.edu or see the url: http:/// By the way, my writings are on a second URL now: http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:23:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hive Beetle Photograph MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/6/99 12:58:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rroper@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > Is there a WWW site that has photographs of the Hive Beetle? Try the University of Georgia site: http://www.bugwood.caes.uga.edu/html/july_1998.html Also, there are pictures of the damage at The Pollination Home Page. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:25:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: smoke flavour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too favour well rotted hessian sacks, the ones I can no longer keep potatoes in because the mice have chewed too many holes. I also raid the underside of old furniture as bonfire night approaches. From time to time, when in the apiary I have run short of fuel I have used dry grass clippings, horse dung, moss from trees or pieces of rotten dry wood. All seem equally effective but some smel beter than others. I havee tried flavouring the fuel with herbs: rosemary was popular with me and the bees but the only time I used sage a normaly very peaceable colony boiled over at me and the smoker. By all means play with different flavours but wear a bee tight suit when you try something new. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:25:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Plastic inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check the bee space on your lovely old wooden inner covers (we in UK call them crown boards). Put a smear of petroleum jelly on the meeting surfaces. Make sure that any nails used in construction are dovetailed rather than driven vertically or else use screws.Call me old fashioned but I shudder at the idea of using plastic in a hive. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:25:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: using water mist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have started playing with mist but being a devout coward I keep the smoker handy as well. My method varies with every colony: each has its own personality and I try to work with it to achieve the minimum of conflict. On average I drift smoke towards the entrance until the guards turn away. After that I just use the mister. Where bees are clustered in places where they are likely to be rolled or crushed I use the smoker to move them out of the way. The mist sprayer is a very useful additional tool but is rarely in my limited experiencea complete alternative tool to a smoker. In brief, a mister will calm them, a smoker will move them. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:28:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: Is perception reality? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all > I'd love to read a thread about how the general public regards >bees and beekeepers. We are regarded as: Kooks, bee charmers, granola worshipers, nature freaks, cranky old farts. We are in dire need of a PR campain or we will not survive. Why? Well, from my brief career as a science educator I can tell you that most school children (k-12) will list bees as the "worst insect"; their reason is "Because they sting". I would surmize that most adults would give the same answer. After I taught an 8 session class on pollination, the answers to a Good Bug/Bad Bug quiz change, and students register what they've been told about the vital link that bee pollination forms in our food chain. Bees become Good Insects, only because I told them it was so. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >We all know why bees have been devastated in >the last ten years We know it, but the general public does not, until they are told. The bottom line here is education/information. I have learned an incredible amount from reading this list lately, but the general population does not suscribe to this list and for lack of information, they don't give a damn about bees! Until as beekeepers, we give as much to educating the public as we do to caring for our bees, things won't change. I know this is a lot to ask; my hands are full managing a few hives and keeping my day job. I know we are all busy, but until our public fully appreciates what bees are and do, we can't really expect them to care. This is as applicable to teaching the local Mosquito Control division about bees as it is to teaching kids not to molest a wild hive they come across. I challenge anyone who has the time to provide more than a two paragraph answer to anything on this list to redirect that huge knowledge base out into the world. Offer to answer bee questions at your AgExtension office, write an article for your local paper, talk to the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts neighborhood associations. Add a tie on tag to the next jar of honey you sell that gives info on mites, comment to people at the growers market that the apples don't look well pollinated, mourn to all your neighbors and friends that you don't see "wild honey bees" anymore, then ask a teacher if you could visit their class and talk about bees. It's up to us! [end of rant] Carol Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:16:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Is perception reality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By some neighbors I am seen as a lost hillbilly. One asked me why people like me would live in a place like this (I think she meant development). I reminded her that being a liberal like herself sometimes meant doing something about a balanced environment, not just tossing someone else's money to a government program. She was very surprised to hear I am a computer network engineer and was "edjmakated". She was afraid to plant trees because they would attract my bees. Other people from the neighborhood stop by to thank me for the good I am doing for the neighborhood and the local gardens. One neighbor was stung and new I would find out about it, he came over right away to tell me it was his fault and not to remove any hives. I get calls from people to place bees in their backyard to reintroduce bees to their environment. People I meet are very interested to find out I am a beekeeper and conversation flows that direction for a long time. They've never met a real live beekeeper before. Some see me as eccentric until I discuss the necessity of pollination for fruit crop and where do they think honey comes from. Animated conversation and straight answers at festivals attract lots of attention at local festivals while my wife trades bears for presidents. I wear my 1/2 suit with my hood tossed back while doing chores in stores on my way home from a field. The normal reaction is mothers pointing to me telling the children to "see the beekeeper", and ask me to say hi to the kids. Some see us as a nuisance, some see us as a benefit, nearly all see us as a curiosity. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Bill Mares wrote: > > I'd love to read a thread about how the general public regards > bees and beekeepers. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:29:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Is perception reality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Around here, the people who I talk to ,upon finding out about > my being a beekeeper, look at me as a semi-brave, semi-lunatic, > and full time excentric. > > I like that! I get a very similar reaction frequently. Also fairly often "oh, year my dad, (or Granddad} kept a few hives in Alabama" or some such identification reaction. I am not sure that I don't also like the reaction, just as Ernie does. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:33:55 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Pricing and cost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are a few ideas that may help some look at the bee business somewhat differently. I think it is obvious that proposing income and cost figures as I do below may be argued with on many grounds. But people absorb financial ideas better when they have examples to consider. Dr. Burgett has been doing a pollination survey of beekeepers with over 25 hives for 13 years in Oregon and for the past six years including Washington beekeepers. The results for 1998 were written up in the May 1999 issue of The Bee Line, the newsletter of the Oregon State Beekeepers Association. The following data may be determined from the article: 1. Commercial beekeeper respondents received 65 percent of their income from pollination rentals. 2. The average total annual rental income per colony was $84.23 in 1998. 3. If 65% is $84.23 then 100 percent equals $129.58. 4. Honey (+wax?) income would be $45.35. (divided by $.62/lb. = 73 lb.. honey crop.) 5. "Several commercial beekeepers known to maintain excellent cost accounting records for several years responded to the survey." Their combined cost figures averaged $114.85 per colony. 6. $129.58 income minus costs of $114.85 equals a net profit of $14.73 per hive, or $14,730 per thousand hives annually for owner/manager salary. 7. Did the beekeepers include accounts for equipment replacement, return on their investment, a medical plan and a retirement account in their cost data? We do not know. If they didn't then: a) equipment replacement might be estimated at $6 per hive ($125 hive value divided by 21 year life) b) return on investment should be something above bank interest so we might use a figure like 6 to ten percent. Some beekeepers have told me that they borrow about one half of their annual costs. So if we use the above numbers we find that annual use of a beekeeper's capital to operate 1,000 hives would be $114,850, divided by two equals $57,425, times 6 percent interest equals $3,446, divided by the 1,000 production colonies, equals $3.45 cost per colony. c) we might suggest adding $4 per colony for a family medical plan, d) for a modest $200,000 retirement account, divided by 25 years business life equals $8,000 cost per year, on 1,000 hives, equals $8 per hive, e) when we add these estimated figures we get $21.45 per hive. 8. $114.85 plus $21.45 equals $136.30 total costs per hive. 9. Total costs of $136.30 minus $129.58 income equals a negative of $6.72. 10. The fictional beekeeper in this scenario will decide whether he and his family can live on $14,730 and whether the cost data represents his actual data. 11. He, or she, recognizes that they must run an extra 100 (10%) to 400 (40%) colonies to replace losses, and to maintain at least 1,000 production colonies. These added colonies are a cost. How will they be paid for? What should pollination fees and honey prices be to meet your business goals? Can retirees in the industry realize their needed retirement funds from the sale of their operation and after taxes? How can we attract young beekeepers into our industry? Will they be able to make the mortgage payments? Can they raise a family in this industry? Is it realistic for pollinated agriculture to think that bees will be available on a supply and demand basis in the future? Lloyd Spear's post on 6/30/99 on this subject now takes on a different meaning doesn't it? James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:42:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fw: Smoke flavour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find wood chips and pine cones to be excellent smoker fuels. What I would really like to find is a smoker fuel that cleared the bees from a super as effectively as bee go or honey robber. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:54:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: De Witt Subject: Re: Is perception reality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'd love to read a thread about how the general public regards > bees and beekeepers I work in a musium as an educator and earler this spring was sitting in a patch of white clover watching bees from a feral hive work. A teacher on a field trip with her students came up and shouted " WATCH OUT THERE ARE SOME BEES!!!" and rushed over to step on them. When I told her to stop she got mad and reported me to my supervissor. "I was just trying to keep him from getting hurt, while he was looking for some four leaf clovers and he got upset with me, she said. When I told her I was watching the bees her only question was "Why?" I asked her about polination and she claimed that " that stuff is only for Farmers, bees have no place in the city." This was from the teacher, what did the kids learn? > For example, if you ask Hollywood for information, you get THE > SWARM at one extrem and ULEE'S GOLD at the other. > As another example, I have one neighbor who welcomes a nearby hive > for his garden and on the other side a neighbor who thinks the only good > bee is a dead bee. > Any thoughts on this perceptual conundrum? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:14:40 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Farrington/Bequia Canvas Subject: smoker fuel Comments: To: Bee-L submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a new subscriber and a new beekeeper. In the short time I have had to see postings I have noticed discussions = on the search for smoker fuel. I use tightly rolled, unpainted cardboard - rolled to the diameter of my = smoker so the bellows is effective. The cardboard is kept closed with = finishing nails. I light the fuel with my propane torch. If the smoke is too hot, I add some green grass - or here in the = Caribbean, some shredded banana leaves. I have never seen this fuel discussed in any literature - maybe there is = something wrong with it? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:25:34 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Is perception reality? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Tom and all Beefriends It's strange to read such evaluation for a beekeeper as if you keep the bees in your own flat :) > > Around here, the people who I talk to ,upon finding out about > > my being a beekeeper, look at me as a semi-brave, semi-lunatic, > > and full time excentric. I have two neighbours very close to my four hives kept in a country garden. When taking off honey my ladies are angry and sting them. But usually I apologize an offended person and give a piece of comb honey. I had no a serious problem yet. When my some acquaintance learns I'm a beekeeper usually I hear "Oh, fine". The bees generally are respected here. Sincerely Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt ICQ# : 4201422 http://gytis.lei.lt/ 55 N, 24 E ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Heat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in the United States we are having a terrible heat wave. 100+ deg F. plus very high humidity. Perhaps a timely discussion would be the impact of heat and drought on colonies, production and business. Each region will be different. I am located in Southeastern Virginia. We have a very hot, humid climate resembling but slightly cooler than the deep south. Agricultural zone 9. In my yards when the weather warms past 70 deg F. I place a stick under the front edge of the outer cover, over the inner cover to assist in air flow. This seems to help. I am experimenting with slat boards over the bottom board, under the first brood chamber. This is the first year for this and as of yet the results are not in. Some local beekeepers place pallets on top of hives in the center of pollinating fields. A neighbor has offered to adjust his lawn sprinkler to spray the back of the hives in my home yard. I gladly agreed as they receive too much sun. With all this heat, usually the nectar flow has completely stopped (with the exemption of irrigated melons and cucurbits). The bees were still working the vitex trees pretty heavy yesterday. Working yards becomes much more difficult and one must pay close attention to heat exhaustion and sunstroke. The bees will be a bit nastier as the colonies have problems with temp control, queens quit laying and as soon as you open them they will spill out on the edges and begin to fan. Drones will be kicked out for the summer and queen rearing will be impossible in yards that are not shaded and fed to stimulate laying. Those that do so in the summer should begin the summer apistan treatments so that they can remove them for fall flows. 56 days from today is Aug. 31. Moving hives is difficult as stressed bees trapped inside tend to overheat. How do large commercial operations deal with heat when they have to move hives for pollination or crop adjustment? Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:07:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: Heat In-Reply-To: Thom Bradley 's message of Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:45:07 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Beekeeper from Florida. Sometimes heat is a problem and sometimes it is not. When we are makeing Orange we hope that it gets hot, it seems the trees make more honey the hoter it gets. During the galberry its always hot some of the time and rain has far more to do with the flow than anything else. I have never done anything different to my hives because of heat. When possible I do put them in the shade starting in May. This is done for my comfort not the bees. In my years at beekeeping I have not seen any difference in the amount of honey made when you put them in the shade or leave them in the sun. We pollinate a lot of melons and if you are depending on them makeing any honey on them they may starve no mater if they are irrigated or not. You may make a little honey while you pollinate mellons or cukes but it will not be from them. This is how it is in Florida. We have to move bees in hot weather. We either move them early in the morning or at nite. It takes lots more smoke to get all of the bees in the hives when its hot and you always have wet forks when you pull them out from under most pallets. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: wanted to buy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I know it is late in the year. But I am looking to buy a hive of = bee's. I will wait until your honey is extracted this fall. Also I wish = it would be close enough to central Missouri, that I could drive to you = and back in a day or a day and night. Thanks Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Heat Thom Bradley asks 'how do beekeepers deal with the heat and help their bees when it's very hot and humid?' (not a verbatim quote). I had several thoughts come to mind when I read this and the subsequent post (about keeping bees in Florida in the heat) and the first thought I had was that 'Andy Nachbauer posted on this subject' and then I started reminiscing about how much knowledge and experience he had--it was obvious when you read his posts--on so many beekeeping subjects. As I recall, Andy said that he had seen no improvement in honey production when hives were "ventilated" versus just leaving them "normal" with the bottom front entrance. If anything, there was a decrease in honey storage/production in the area next to the ventilation hole or crack. Bees do just fine when we leave the hive in the normal closed position with no extra holes drilled, etc. even when it's hot. My mind then wandered to what one of the veteran beekeepers in my area told me when I first started beekeeping (my area being central Texas, where it also does get hot), and that was that "the bees really make honey fast when it gets really hot." It could have something to do with what plants and trees are growing in your particular area and might vary from year to year depending on rainfall, temperature and maybe many other factors, but that was the observation. Also, it seems that hot weather seems to "concentrate" the nectar in some flowers so the bees can collect more concentrated sugars in a shorter period of time. The nectar flow of some flowers "shuts off" after a rain and doesn't start up again until it gets back to hot and dry. Situating hives so they get afternoon shade seems to help, but I do nothing special to ventilate them extra. I don't offset the supers or crack the lid or drill holes. As a matter of fact, I intentionally don't do anything special for ventilation except make sure the bees have water and have the hives placed for afternoon shade where possible, and I feel good about my results, backed up by the likes of Andy and other old-timers. I don't have enough hives to run a "statistical test" on the results of using one system or another (including the solar powered fan ventilation system that claims so much), but I feel confident that my bees are fine and my honey production results are as good as they can be considering equipment availability and natural circumstances (whatever nature hands me). These are just my opinions and your mileage may vary. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:04:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: RASpiek@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Water Mist (Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried it too. With and without vinegar in the water. Some days good some days it doesn't work very well. I just wonder if it is due to how much water you get on them. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:47:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Heat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >My mind then wandered to what one of the veteran beekeepers in my area told me >when I first started beekeeping (my area being central Texas, where it also >does get hot), and that was that "the bees really make honey fast when it gets >really hot." It could have something to do with what plants and trees are >growing in your particular area and might vary from year to year depending on >rainfall, temperature and maybe many other factors, but that was the >observation. Also, it seems that hot weather seems to "concentrate" the nectar >in some flowers so the bees can collect more concentrated sugars in a shorter >period of time. The nectar flow of some flowers "shuts off" after a rain and >doesn't start up again until it gets back to hot and dry. Beyond the flower source issues, bees are evaporating water out of the nectar to bring it down to the water levels needed for honey. This should be affected by the _relative humidity_ of the air in their environment. If I understand the term correctly, that is the amount of water in the air as a ratio the the amount of water that is being held by the air. The dew point being where a drop in temperature would result in the air having to give up some of the water, which forms dew. The warmer the air the more water it can hold. For the bees the lower the relative humidity the easier their job is in removing the water. Fan air past the cell and the water will evaporate fast. Cooling the hive would also be easy (if there is water near by) as the water placed on the frames by the bees will evaporate and take along some of the heat energy with it as the bees fan the hive. For the bees to make honey they have to spread out the nectar in many cells to increase the surface area of the nectar and improve the evaporation. The more nectar that "touches" the air the faster it would evaporate its water. The lower the relative humidity the faster this will happen. As the hives fill up with nectar a low relative humidity will become critical for the bees to "finish" the nectar into honey by reducing the amount of surface area needed to dry the nectar the last few percent. My guess is that a hive could need one or more supers worth of "surface area" in a high relative humidity environment to cure one super of honey (that is two supers to get one full). With hot dry air, maybe less? Just a guess! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:25:40 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907051559.LAA09654@listserv.albany.edu> On 5 Jul 99, at 7:33, Computer Software Solutions L wrote: > Perhaps I am mis understanding what David Eyre wishes to convey, but I do > not understand the above. > > A normal queen larva is fed for only 5 days, (3 days as an egg, 5 days > unsealed, 8 days sealed). Where did 6 days feeding and 9 days feeding come > from?. > > Is David saying that pressure of circumstances can force or otherwise > persuade the bees to alter the times that the normal metamorphoses take > place?. I have not come across this before. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you check a hive that has lost it's queen unexpectantly 3-4 days after the event you'll find sealed queen cells. Now it doesn't take a superior amount of knowledge to see that a queen sealed after 6-7 days cannot possible be as a good as a queen sealed after 9 days. This reflects in egg capacity, amount of pheromones produced and general overall performance. Within a matter of days or weeks that queen will be supersceded, but only if you watch carefully, mark the queen will you know it's happened. The commercials with hundreds or thousands of hives can't possibly check each one as often as we do, to watch and chart the progress of each and every queen. Regretfully, a lot of their advice handed out to the amatuers is less than the best, not outright bad, but their requirements are certainly different. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Labels ****************************************