From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:21 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27345 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11123 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11123@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:15 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9907B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 146397 Lines: 3123 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:38:57 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Bee product labels... The Ministry of Health in New Zealand put into place a set of regulations at the end of 1996, requiring that products containing pollen, royal jelly and propolis have warnings about possible allergic reactions. Naturally, the beekeepers and others who sell such products were up in arms, as we did not feel there was scientific justification for the imposition of the requirements. Well, in a real David and Goliath outcome, the regulations are to be revoked! You can read the report of the Parliamentary Select Committee that made the decision at: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/label.htm (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:27:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Heat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I paint my hives dark to get more heat here in Maine, even in the summer when we can have 90 degree days. If you look at the hive from a heating/cooling point of view, you have two competing dynamics. The first is the bees want to keep the hive warm, 95 F for brood health. They also are evaporating all the water from nectar, which makes for an exceptionally strong cooling effect. You also have the heat load from the sun, but even on a 90 degree day, with decent humidity- low dewpoint- and a good nectar flow, there should be no problems with keeping the right conditions in the hive. Ventilation, if it is needed, would be for the same reason as winter ventilation, to get rid of moisture. So if you have made your hive to have adequate winter ventilation, you have also set it up for the summer. Our State Inspector taught me to leave a moisture board on even in the summer and it works. Moisture is the major problem. In extreme heat, with little nectar flow bees will bring water into the hive to evaporate and cool the hive. If there is no place for the moisture to go, it defeats their efforts. We tend to think that when we are hot the bees must also be hot, but I know of few who set their thermostat for 95. The bees problem is keeping everything warm, at 95, rather than enjoying a nice 80 degree day. There is a good writeup on hive temperature and what the bees do in relation to both hot and cold temps in Hive and the Honey bee. This thread may have answered a question I have had about my bees. I never see them clustered at the entrance on hot days or nights, even with the dark hives. My bet is it is moisture which leads to high temps that cause clustering. Keep the moisture down and you keep the temp down. May also answer the question of why temp control equipment for hives work for some in increased honey production and not for others. It provides better moisture control. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:12:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "The Burlingames(" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Jul 1999 to 7 Jul 1999 (#1999-104) HI Beekeepers, I looked through my hives today and found the empty queens cells that account for the two swarms we have had lately. Also found one full frame that was dark and empty. I would assume this was once brood that left with the queens....is that right? Will they reuse this? It was in the second deep super so I put it back down into the main brood hive. In looking through the frames...in the brood hive..there is the really dark cells versus the pretty golden yellow honey comb.AM I right in calling the dark, the brood? Also, between two frames, the bees had built not only on each frame but had comb built between the two frames requiring the two frames to be moved together. Should I try and separate these two frames? Does this extra comb between the two frames cause problems with the pheronmes?(or however you spell it?) Also, we moved one of our hives at night time and today there were many bees back on the wood where that hive had been. I put an empty super that I had used in that hive but had just replaced and moved some back to the new location. Will the bees find they way to the new hive? I had understood if you moved them at night there wouldn't be a problem with them being lost? Appreciatively, Meri Burlingame ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:39:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: RASpiek@AOL.COM Subject: Ross rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good news! I produced my first rounds this season and they are excellent, completely filled with water white clover honey. Bad news! The frames had a small bit of wax on them and I thought that my solar melter would be a good way to melt this off. It did but the frames warped into unrecognisable pieces of black plastic. I lost a super of frames and I post this as warning just in case there are other dumbees out there. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:06:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Van Roekel Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907051559.LAA09660@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Time to get into the fray. >>not expecting a lost queen. The hive goes into emergency mode and 3-4 days >>later you'll find, but few take the time to look, sealed queen cells. I have not seen sealed queen cells 3 or 4 days after sudden loss of a queen. I have never knowingly checked a hive at that time after it became queenless. If I am making a split, or adding young brood to a queenless hive etc., I make it a point not to disturb them for around ten days. >> It takes 3 days to hatching, so those sealed at 3 days after emergency >>only get a 6 day feeding, instead of 9 which is normal. >A normal queen larva is fed for only 5 days, (3 days as an egg, 5 days >unsealed, 8 days sealed). My understanding has always been that the hive can turn any young worker larvae, ( less than three days old), into a queen. If the bees start to work on a larvae of that age, a sealed queen cell at 3-4 days after becoming queenless is quite possible. I do not agree with the idea that the hive (or its circumstances) can alter the normal time for queen development. There are factors that I am aware of that can change an insect's development time. Some of them would be temperature (warmer may tend to speed it a little, cooler may tend to slow it), some hormones such as are used in some pesticides to delay an insect's development into an adult until it "burns itself out" (my terminology, not the entomologist's), and some circumstances (for which I don't know the trigger') where insects go into an extended diapause, as happens with some corn pests which don't emerge as adults in the normal time, but the next season instead (about a year later). There may be more, and I do not mean to rule out the possibility that bees have the ability to alter development time, only that I haven't seen or heard of it, and do not think they can or do. This would not include the hive that keeps a queen in her cell after she could have emerged. She has already developed, she's just being prevented from emerging. I think the question (that David has addressed) is how important are those first three days as a larvae in queen development (assuming that 3 day old larvae may be raised into a queen). David, it appears, feels that this is a critical time for the development of a commercially good queen. He could very well be correct. Even if this early larval stage is critical to good queen development, there will be times that larvae will receive better care due to larger numbers of nurse bees, good or bad weather, honey flow etc. and these may already have had everything they need to become a very good queen. Sorry I ramble. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Heat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Thought Bill, The metabolism moisture may be too much for the interior of the hive and explain the summer porchsitters remaining even at night. That would also help support George Imrie's use of the 5 supers (vice 1 or 2) as the increased surface area and chimney effect would help to evap. in his fairly humid environment. We perhaps should be examining humidity control assistance and not heat assistance. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Bill Truesdell wrote: > > My bet is it is moisture which > leads to high temps that cause clustering. Keep the moisture down > and you keep the temp down. May also answer the question of why > temp control equipment for hives work for some in increased honey > production and not for others. It provides better moisture > control. > Bill T > Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:04:32 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Persuading bees to alter queens' normal metamorphoses time In-Reply-To: <199907072024.QAA03832@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On 5 Jul 99, at 7:33, Computer Software Solutions L wrote: > > > Is David saying that pressure of circumstances can force or otherwise > > persuade the bees to alter the times that the normal metamorphoses take > > place?. I have not come across this before. And David Eyre responded: > Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Well Dave, if that's what you're saying you're saying it wrong. Pressures of unexpected queenless do not change metamorphoses time, what the unexpected queenlessness does is prompt the bees to change the path of an already developing larva. ALL fertilized larvae have the potential to become queens for up to three days from the point that they cease to be eggs, based on diet and how they are reared by the nurse bees. Larvae destined from the very beginning to become queens are fed a higher amount of the glandular secretion from nurses' mandibular glands whereas larvae destined to become workers from the very beginning are fed a higher amount of the glandular secretion from nurses' hypopharengeal glands. These glandular secretions are commonly called royal jelly. Now, if a colony suddenly becomes queenless the bees will sometimes "alter the destiny" of a developing larva by changing the ratio of mandibular to hypopharengeal secretions in the royal jelly and enlarging the cell of the developing larva. The bees may "alter the destiny" of a larva that can be up to 3 days old (again, age of larva as determined from the point that the egg ceases to be an egg and becomes a larva). If the "altered" larva is 3 days old, the resulting queen will be inferior to a larva that was "altered" at one day old. Grafting larvae to produce queens is "altering the destiny" of the grafted larvae, only it's the beekeeper altering the destiny rather than the bees. Ideally, grafts are made from larvae that are less than 24 hours old. If the "altered" larva is 3 days old, the "altered" queen cell will be capped at 6-7 days rather than 9. But in NO WAY is metamorphosis time altered, that simply doesn't happen. "It doesn't take a superior amount of knowledge" to add the days up, it only takes a civil explanation of what is going on within a hive in an emergency situation. Now, does this mean that all walk away splits will result in inferior queens? I can't say. Dave claims to have kept the records and asserts that emergency queens will be inferior and will most likely be quickly superseded. The supersedure queen will have been raised as a queen from the very beginning with all the proper nourishment worthy of a queen to be, so the supersedure queen should be fine. What you lose in this scenario is time and there is also a period when the inferior queen could be polluting the gene pool with inferior drons (unsubstantiated speculation on my part). So there may be a possibility that walk away splits result in inferior colonies. Others have reported good results, even superior results with walk away splits. I'm trying a few myself this year and I'll judge my results in time. Right now I have no opinion. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, the more you know about the science and art of producing good, productive queens with all the traits you desire, the more you will appreciate the job done by good queen breeders. One must either put in a good deal of time (years) and effort into their own breeding program or find and cultivate a good working relationship with queen breeders they feel are producing a good, consistent product. Good queens just don't happen. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:21:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you check a hive that has lost >it's queen unexpectantly 3-4 days after the event you'll find sealed queen >cells. Now it doesn't take a superior amount of knowledge to see that a >queen sealed after 6-7 days cannot possible be as a good as a queen sealed >after 9 days. This reflects in egg capacity, amount of pheromones produced >and general overall performance. Within a matter of days or weeks that >queen will be supersceded, but only if you watch carefully, mark the queen >will you know it's happened. What is being gotten at is that the bees are picking an older larvae to use for the process. This larvae was closer to being capped before the need for a new queen. The problem from our point of view is that the larvae, at this age, has had the diet switch begin and has not had the full nutritional regiment to fully develop as a queen. This will result in a queen with underdeveloped ovaries and glands. The ovaries will not have the egg laying capacity and the glands will not be able to produce the phermones that glue the hive together. The odds are very good that within a few days of egg laying the workers will begin a supercedure cell. This is a case where the bees only need the first queen for a few weeks. This is much like the old queen that leaves with a swarm, her days are numbered. Until the supercedure cell hatches and the quality queen mates the hive is going to be cranky. This process, which is burned into the DNA of the bees, can get in the way of queen introduction. When the packaged queen arrives she is allowed out and very soon afterwards the bees are building a supercedure cell. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:36:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ross rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/99 7:55:58 AM EST, RASpiek@AOL.COM writes: > The frames had a small bit of wax on them and I thought that my solar melter > would be a good way to melt this off. It did but the frames warped into > unrecognisable pieces of black plastic Same holds true for division board feeders made from plastic-I have a few sculptures myself. The good news is ice cold wax is brittle so the fridge is an alternative for plastic items . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:02:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Splits or local queen production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 10 hives that I bought from a retiring beekeeper. They have outstanding characteristics (honey, bees, queens, wax, toogoodtobetrue kind of stuff) and have not had a commercial queen for 10 years. These bees are perfect for our environment. I want to continue to use the genetics of this line. Pretend I don't have any experience. If I want to produce queens this fall, what steps should I then take to produce my own queens or splits to ensure (as much as possible) a good queen. They are relatively well isolated from feral drones that are not actually from my stock. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 07:58:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Miller Subject: Moving large hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, I could use some helpful advice on how to move some large beehives. A couple of weeks ago I successfully moved three hives that consisted of 5-7 medium supers; some with an additional deep hive body (for weight and standardization I am moving towards using all medium sized supers). They way I did the last move was to open the hives the morning of the move and tack on a screen to the top of each hive; then, using hive staples I connected two supers together so that I could move 2 chambers at a time. I planned on placing two screens between each two chamber section (one to screen off the bottom, the other to become the top); however, this proved to be too much work. Mostly in placing and tacking down the screens. I finally stuffed screen into the entrances with a hive tool and simply lifted the 2 chambers into a pickup truck in the evening. Other than getting stung ~10 times (I rarely get stung), the move went pretty well. I would like to extract the remaining 4 hives before moving them (some have 6 supers on top of the 2-3 brood chambers); but I am concerned that pulling off the supers will force the too many bees into too few hive bodies, and I won't be able to contain all of the bees for the move. Any suggestions?? Thanks in advance for your helpful suggestions. Jeff Miller Jeffrey Miller 2915 Avenida Valera Carlsbad, California 92009 (760) 431-0707 - home phone (760) 431-6705 - office phone (760) 431-6909 - Fax (877) 431-6705 - Toll free jemiller@invivoscribe.com http://www.invivoscribe.com "All who have mediated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of its youth." - Aristotle - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:35:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Malathion Label from Eunice Wonnacott In-Reply-To: <37824564.2EF0@pei.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Eunice Wonnacott writes: The label that was faxed to me, does not specificaly mention fogging. It says: Keep out of reach of children. May be fatal if swallowed. Do not get into eyes. Avoid contact with skin, inhalation of vapours or spray mist. Wash thoroughly after handling. Avoid contamination of food and feed. Use only as recommended on the label. Do not re-use container; destroy when empty. Notice to buyer: Seller's guarantee shall be limited to the terms set out on the label etc etc There is a lot of information relating to the dilution, based on thepest targeted. The label itsellf id for: Sanex Malathion 50 E.C. Emulsifiable concentrate liquid insecticide Agricultural There is the poison symbol (skull and crossbones) Manufactured by Sanex Registration No. 18099 Pest Control Products Act 95 Slough Street, Mississauga, Ontario L4T 1G2 Branches Throughout North America At times like this I wish for a scanner. My Fax is not the newest, and uses the roll paper. At present the roll sticks some of the time producing very strange letters, but this is the gist of it. Hope it helps. Eunice Wonnacott ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:14:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Re: Is perception reality? In-Reply-To: <199907071044.GAA22035@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Also fairly often "oh, year >my dad, (or Granddad} kept a few hives in Alabama" or some such >identification reaction. I placed a few hives up in the Appalachians on my grandmother's property way up on a ridge. I was surprised at te number of folk who mentioned a father or grandfather or uncle who kept bees - mostly for personal/family use. It's easy to forget, when we're such a small group now, how very many people (at least in Appalachian mountain culture) used to keep bees. Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Seven Lakes Times, L.L.C. ghankins@ac.net P.O. Box 602 Voice: (910)673-0111 1008 Seven Lakes Drive Fax: (910)673-0210 Seven Lakes, NC 27376 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:50:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Persuading bees to alter queens' normal metamorphoses time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well said, Aaron! I totally agree with you. Not many GOOD things can be said about the arrival of the mites, but one MAJOR GOOD THING has occurred; and that is: Beekeepers are finally becoming aware of the importance of SCIENTIFIC STUDY AND RESEARCH in the art of good beekeeping, and this is particularly true in raising good queens. George ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:43:42 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907081318.JAA21044@listserv.albany.edu> On 8 Jul 99, at 8:06, Bill Van Roekel wrote: > I have not seen sealed queen cells 3 or 4 days after sudden loss of a > queen. I have never knowingly checked a hive at that time after it became > queenless. If I am making a split, or adding young brood to a queenless > hive etc., I make it a point not to disturb them for around ten days. I have never subscribed to the 'leave alone' view. We routinely remove cell protectors within a few hours of emergence, which allows us to prove a good cell versus a non emerger. I see absolutely no problem in checking out progress of cell production. Perhaps someone will, to stop the uproar. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:47:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: fire blight disease Comments: To: bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: From: Mustafa Civan We have a problem here in Bursa in Turkey, where our bees are.Some people don't allow to stay our bees in their villages area, because of "fire blight" disease, which is seen on apple, pear, quince trees.I searched this disease and have found that bees carry the bacteria (Erwinia amylovora), which causes to this disease.Bees aren't only carrier for this, birds, other insekts and wind carry also this bacteria, but a lot of people believe here in that the biggest problem is honey bee for their trees. What should we do? Because problem will be bigger, some people will exaggirate the effects of honey bees and we can't control the situation I will wait for your answer, Thank you in Advance... best wishes... Mustafa Civan. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:34:01 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: miki Subject: egg weight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello, I am a beginner in beekeeping and a recent subscriber to BEE-L. A friend of mine who is an experienced beekeer recently told me that eggs the queen lays in August are heavier than the ones she lays in April od March. By analogy, the August egss should be of a better quality, especially for the production od new queens. Has anyone heard this? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Apology. Before we have an international incident I should apologise for my enormous error, committed whilst answering mail when I should have been in bed. I erroneously and mistakenly suggested that my ideas changed the metamorphosis rate of queens. This is of course incorrect, it leads to a shortened emergence time due to the worker selecting a larvae too old. Sorry. It's nice to know so many are quick to pick up and make public genuine mistakes made by others. Many thanks to Aaron for a succinct lesson of beekeeping. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:39:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Moving large hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I could use some helpful advice on how to move some large beehives. Hi Jeff and All: I move my beehives on stands of five now with a boom (I have to move 900 in a week), but believe me I have moved MANY big, tall, heavy beehives by hand. If you have a friend it is no problem unless the weight goes over what you are able to lift using your legs, and 125 pounds each (250 pound hive) should be pretty straightforward. I rarely use hive staples. The only thing I might staple would be the bottom board, because sometimes they will slide around. It is extremely rare for supers to move unless they have just been put on and have new frames. Otherwise the burr comb glues them together from sliding as long as the whole hive is strapped together. I use cheap ratchet straps (with just a one inch wide strap). If you get them tight (and you can!) you could lay a hive over on wheeled dolly and stand it up again and it likely would not come apart as long as it had not been opened for a couple of weeks. The best method I have found for manhandling is that the two persons get on either side of the hive. Each puts one hand under the bottom board just slightly in front of the middle. That hand takes ALL the weight. The other hand is used at the back of the hive to steady it from tipping. That is why the underneath hand has to be a little bit ahead of centre so there is some weight back on the steadying hand. This hand can only push it has nothing to pull on. I can give you no advice about screening tops or entrances or whatever. I have never had any need or screening as I *ALWAYS* move hives with the entrances wide open. If the bees get hot they come out. On a warm night the hives are covered. Keeps them from overheating. You might lose a few but the queen never comes out, so... Smoking them a bit helps, although I must admit that we rarely smoke bees just to move them. >I would like to extract the remaining 4 hives before moving them (some have >6 supers on top of the 2-3 brood chambers); but I am concerned that pulling >off the supers will force the too many bees into too few hive bodies, and I >won't be able to contain all of the bees for the move. If the hives are too heavy to lift then you have to pull the honey. If you don't screen the entrance you don't have to worry about containing all the bees. If they get too hot they will come out. If you put on an empty super just before the move then you may kill more bees than you will lose off the outside cluster because the frames will not be glued and they will rock, which DOES kill bees, and maybe even that one important one. You mentioned stings. I must admit that moving bees does generally involve some stings. I work at least 75 hives most days, and I have rarely put my veil on for the last three weeks. But when I move hives by hand I put it on and my gloves. And wear boots. Bees go into a different behaviour mode at night. I call it crawly behaviour. They are pissed that you are messing with them and they know they have a disadvantage because they can't fly (although they can sure still jump!!!) and they make up for it by continuing doggedly to crawl on you until they find that inevitable hole in the armour. There is a little bit of time in the late evening when the field force has almost all come in but crawly behaviour has not yet taken over. If you can load in that time window you will usually have a nice move. Once on the vehicle the vibrations from the engine will calm the hive and if you leave it running you can lift them off peacefully. On nights when we are moving bees all night I like unloading the last load in the morning the best. It is amazing how they regain their normal gentle nature as soon as they can fly again. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:05:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Splits or local queen production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thom Bradley wrote: > > They are relatively well isolated from feral drones that are not > actually from my stock. It is my understanding that queens normally fly significantly further from the hive to mate than do drones. A built in protection from inbreeding, which will slowly ruin the reproductive quality of your bees. If these bees have all the great qualities you see, they must have had reproductive input from bees not too closely related. They may well have been bees with similar qualities, but the sex allele problem would kick in if they were all too closely related. Any other wisdom on this aspect? I would appreciate input from those more knowledgeable than I. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:16:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: fire blight disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees are part of the problem in spreading fire blight. I lost several fruit trees from it. Unfortunately, the solution to the problem of fire blight, at least the ones that were given to me, are treatment of the plant, which I think was a copper sulfate spray, or remove the branches which are affected or remove the plants which are most susceptible. I solved the problem by removing the plants that harbored the disease- flowering almonds. Once I did that, the incidence of the disease in my plums, which seemed to get it the most, dropped to zero. Which leads to the best solution, but one which is the most difficult because of expense, plant resistant varieties. You are in a difficult position. Honeybees will be blamed even though the transport is any pollinating insect. I had fire blight before I had honeybees. The key to the introduction of honey bees is to eradicate the disease. But with many growers, that would be costly because their plants may be the repository of the disease and they accept some damage- corrected by pruning- with no thought that they are spreading the disease to others. With that attitude, it is easier to blame the bees. You are fighting human nature, which is much more difficult to conquer than mother nature. So my suggestion is to organize the growers to eradicate the disease so they can get the benefits of honeybee pollination for increased yields. And that will be difficult and costly. I hope there are others that can give you more help. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:26:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: eparker Subject: Re: fire blight disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We have a problem here in Bursa in Turkey, where our bees >are.Some people don't allow to stay our bees in their villages area, >because of "fire blight" disease, which is seen on apple, pear, >quince trees. Mustafa Civan. > Hello Mustafa Fire Blight is a serious problem. Under certian conditions it can make commercial pear growing impossible. During humid or wet weather bacterial masses exude out lenticels or cracks of infected twigs and branches. Insects like bees, flies and ants are attracted to the sweet sticky substance, become smeared with it, and spread it to flowers they visit afterwards. An integrated approach must be taken for disease control. During the winter all blighted twigs, branches, cankers, and even whole trees if necessary, should be cut out about 10 cm below the last point of visible infection and burned. Reduce excessive succulence by growing trees in sod and use a balanced fertilization program. Also try limited pruning. An insect control program should be followed in the POSTBLOSSOM period to reduce spread of bacteria. Ants can be a serious problem at this time spreading bacteria to succulent twigs. Focus on reducing the bacteria instead of reducing the bees! Use tactics that target ants, flies and other vectors but avoid killing the bees that are so graciously pollinating their crop. Good luck. Ed Parker Serenity Gardens ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:46:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: fire blight disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the US, aphids are blamed for the bulk of the disease spread, but as Bill T. said, any flying creature can and does spread the disease. If fire blight is new to your area, meaning that growers have not planted resistant varieties, fire blight will be an enormous problem. Bees do spread it, but aphids spread it more because they visit the trees for several months while bees only visit for a couple of weeks. Destruction of infected branches and limbs will help slow the spread, but if saws are not disinfected after every cut, the saws will also spread the disease! Best of luck, Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:16:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Petofi Subject: Re: Is perception reality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Hankins wrote: Also fairly often "oh, year my dad, (or Granddad} kept a few hives in Alabama" or some such identification reaction." I have ten hives of bees in a secluded, wooded area. Recently I have attempted to sell some of the timber on my land and loggers have come out to appraise or consider purchase of it. What interested me enormously is that none of them were afraid of the bees. They walk by the hives without fear. They look at the hives fondly and admiringly say thinng like, "They're working, ain't they!!!" Then they always say, "My daddy used to keep bees," (or uncle or some close family member). However, when my "city" or small town aquaintances learn I have bees (this sight unseen) they wrinkle their noses and say as a first comment, without variation, "Aren't you afraid?" When I press a person to see what knowledge he she has, the base information that comes out from everybody -- loggers and city folk alike -- is "Nearly all the bees are dead now, aren't they? Didn't some mites or something get them?" One man told me his brother and he kept bees for years "until the government sprayed for gypsy moths and killed them all." I notice that Organic Gardening and all the other gardening magazines I read run an article which says virtually the same thing in each magazine the import of which is that honey bees are almost extinct and then lists a number of other pollinators and how to encourage them, adding that in some way they are better than honey bees, as in bumble bees work longer hours. Recently our agriculture columnist in our local newspaper had a long article on applying pesticides and never once mentioned bees but said to spray in the early morning or late afternoon when there was less likelihood of drift. Perhaps the agricultural agents are unwittingly doing beekeepers more harm than good by not knowing about bees? Elizabeth Petofi Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:09:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Ross rounds In-Reply-To: <199907081255.IAA20522@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The frames had a small bit of wax on them and I thought that > my solar melter > would be a good way to melt this off. It did but the frames > warped into > unrecognisable pieces of black plastic. The wax on the frames is beneficial as long as it is not so excessive that it prevents handling. The wax spurs allow the bees to climb easily between boxes when the bee space is too great -- as it has been in many boxes offered on the market. It also helps attract the bees into the frames. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:34:52 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Fire blight disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Washington State fire blight is also spread by rain and over head sprinklers. Growers use the sprinklers in freezing weather to put a coat of ice on the tree to prevent frost damage. The freezing water actually adds a degree or two to the tree hopefully raising its temperature above the damage point. The pathologist here thinks that these two cause the major part of the damage, not bees. After all the bees visit the bloom not the tree. Of course when the blight gets to the bloom by the rain then bees could move it to other blooms. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:48:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vivian Donahue Subject: Is perception reality? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree that education is key. Our beeclub always maintains a booth at local fairs for education, and the larger hobbiests sell their excess honey at them so it is a good source of education, resource management, and also a way of recruiting new hobbiests. (Important in this urban area, where there are no crops to motivate people to keep bees.) We get lots of curious folks who ask the same questions over and over, but they all buy honey and listen to the answers. For myself, I drag any neighbor or acquaintance who is mildly interested up to my backyard and plant them directly next to me in front of the hive for a carefully rehearsed monolog on the virtues of beekeeping. There is nothing like people standing in front of a hive, and NOT being stung to convince them that honeybees are a wonderful asset to our community. (I know right where to stand them so they are out of flight path.) And I agree with Carol that I have learned more about beekeeping in the past 2 months that I have been reading this list, than in all my last 20 or so years of being a hobbiest. Thanks everybody. Vivian >The bottom line here is education/information. I have learned an incredible >amount from reading this list lately, but the general population does >not suscribe to this list and for lack of information, they don't give >a damn about bees! >Carol K. Malcolm >dewsnap@worldnet.att.net >Hi all >> I'd love to read a thread about how the general public regards >>bees and beekeepers. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:18:15 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: fire blight disease In-Reply-To: <199907091107.HAA14638@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Some people don't allow to stay our bees in their villages area, > because of "fire blight" disease, which is seen on apple, pear, > quince trees. Here in New Zealand we've recently faced an even more obscure variation. Australian authorities have imposed conditions on the importation of bee collected pollen into that country. That is, even if the pollen is dried, cleaned and encapsulated (!) they are claiming that there is the possiblity that the pollen could spread fireblight. I personally think the odds of *that* disease spreading vector are incredibly small - any comment from other list members? (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... NZ Bkpg: Education and Training? Email to: educ@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:10:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Splits & Garth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Can you tell us how, genetically, inferior drones might pass on inferior genes ("polluting the gene pool" is what you communicated) if they derived from a mother which was produced from an underfed larva as the result of a split? What has happened to Garth? I hope he has kept well. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:31:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Dark hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/99 10:06:23 PM Mountain Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > I paint my hives dark to get more heat here in Maine, even in the > summer when we can have 90 degree days. > If you look at the hive from a heating/cooling point of view, you > have two competing dynamics Perhaps someone with a better understanding of Physics than I have can help me out on this: I am wondering what effect "blackbody radiation" theory would have on this technique. The idea being that although a dark hive will absorb more solar radiation than a light hive when the sun is shining on it, it will also re-radiate to the atmosphere MORE HEAT when the sun is not shining on it. Thus cooling the dark hive more than a light hive. Maybe it depends on the amount of insolation hours vs. cloudy/night hours. Any comments? Cesar Flores Colorado USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:34:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Powers Subject: Bombus vosnesenskii in our yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Everyone, I am new to the list and could use some advise or references. We have Bombus Vosnesenskii (a native California bumble bee) nesting in an abandoned gopher hole in our front yard. The bumble bees are very docile and there really is no need at present to take any action to remove them. My wife is afraid of the bees and wants them off our property just in case. So far the bees are staying, until it is time in the Fall. If I need to move the bees to another location are there any resources I can call on to have the bees relocated to another spot so that they can continue their life cycle? Also, do bumble bees in the Northern California area (we live in Santa Cruz) suffer from the mites like other bees in California do? How plentiful is the wild population? Thanks for your time and energy. Paul Powers ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:04:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Dark hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the hives were metal, blackbody radiation would have great effect, but wood- not sure. My guess is that heat transfer through the wood would have little effect compared to air intrusion from the entrance hole and all the other cracks that let air in and out. So in winter, the dark hive would be nearly the same as a white hive as far as air intrusion at night. It might be warmer for a while because the heat load in the wood would continue to warm the hive longer than the lesser heat load of a white hive. In the sun, however, my guess is it would have more of an effect in heating the hive in winter. All guess, no science. As an aside, there was an article in ABJ a while back on dark hives and tracheal mites. If I recall it said there was some reduction in mite load with the dark hive but could have been experimental error. I no longer have any problem with Tmites, but that may have nothing to do with dark hives and more to do with breeding resistance. Not much science, but good results. And beekeeping is still more an art than science, which makes this list fun. You can be right for all the wrong reasons. Bill T bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 07:02:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Dark hives In-Reply-To: <199907092356.TAA00890@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I paint my hives dark to get more heat... If you look at the > > hive from a heating/cooling point of view, you have two > > competing dynamics > > I am wondering what effect "blackbody radiation" theory would > have on this technique ...although a dark hive will absorb more > solar radiation than a light hive when the sun is shining on > it, it will also re-radiate to the atmosphere MORE HEAT when > the sun is not shining on it. Thus cooling the dark hive more > than a light hive. This is something that I have often thought about. I guess that the long and the short of the matter is that a beehive is not a simple or inert heat system. Complex and variable factors are involved. Internal convection and heat conduction come into play along with other non-linear factors like the metabolism of honeybees and their response to stimulae such as heat inputs and external temperature changes. The bee responses may vary with season and faecal or disease pressures as well as recent hive history. I don't frankly understand the system (hive plus bees) well enough to analyse it properly, although others with engineering training have made some interesting attempts. One such analogy is the 'chicken in a box'. I'll merely try to outline the factors as best I can here and hope that others will contribute. First bees are not inert matter, such as we generally use in undergrad lab experiments at university when studying heat transfer. They are living organisms and the colony is considered by many to be a superorganism. As such, the bees respond to heat input with heat effects of their own, such as raised or lowered metabolism and fanning or moving to contact hive surfaces. I think it is safe to say that it is generally believed that it is good for the bees to be able to expand their cluster and become active during the active season. Of course there may be exceptions to this in wintering conditions, but generally, warmer is better -- until we reach temperatures that start to cause discomfort or an excessive work load in dumping heat. This can occur when the temperatures get into the high thirties and forties Celcius; bees may cease all other activities and find it necessary to devote all their resources to maintaining an non-lethal hive temperature. Their cooling efforts use energy and when they reach some level of heat input, these very cooling activities can culminate in a heat 'avalanche' if they have restricted air passages or lack of water. Anyhow, the theory is that the initial application of heat from the sun warms the hive and dormant bees and they then start up their dynamic and complex heat management systems which function until cold and darkness cause the bees to again return to semi-dormancy and the hive again becomes a somewhat inert heat system. The initial absorption of heat from the sun by darker boxes causes an earlier triggering of this activity than is the case with light colored or shaded boxes. There is some controversy as to what is ideal, and understandably, the opinions vary geographically, with the strain of bees used, the beekeeping techniques employed, and the ultimate goals of the beekeeper. Suffice it to say that heat stimulation, like any stimulation can be a good thing. Using dark boxes or wraps can increase this effect. When the sun goes away, there may be an initial more rapid cooling of the outer surfaces of the box, and conduction and radiation of the inner heat that is greater than would be the case with white boxes, however at this point, the bees are active and heat loss is not a problem, since they can make it up if they so wish. If the day is ending and light stimulus is removed, the more rapid loss of heat may trigger a shutting down of activity sooner than with white boxes, but once the bees return to quiescence, they are clustered and mostly unaffected by ambient temperature. In northern areas, most beekeepers believe that a bit of warming helps the bees break winter dormancy to deal with some important issues like moving to new stores and allowing old bees to leave the hive. If not carried to the extreme where feed consumption becomes excessive, this results in healthier hives. having said all that, I must admit that my hives are white for the most part. My winter wraps, however are black. FWIW allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:06:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas D. Harker" Subject: Re: Bombus vosnesenskii in our yard In-Reply-To: <199907101251.IAA09079@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:34 PM 7/9/99 -0700, you wrote: >So far the bees are staying, until it is time in >the Fall. If I need to move the bees to another location are there any >resources I can call on to have the bees relocated to another spot so >that they can continue their life cycle? > No need to move them in the Fall. Bombus will not use the same home two years in a row. Queens will leave in the Fall and seek out a secure place to hibernate. In the Spring, they will find a new abandoned mouse or rodent hole to make their nest in. >Also, do bumble bees in the Northern California area (we live in Santa >Cruz) suffer from the mites like other bees in California do? How >plentiful is the wild population? > Bombus do have mite problems just like Apis. I live in Northern Illinois and Bombus here are quite plentiful, gentle and great pollinators. You have to work at it pretty hard to get them to sting. Tom 4 hives in Northern Illinois ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:29:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dark hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/9/99 6:57:26 PM EST, HStarJE@aol.com writes: > > Perhaps someone with a better understanding of Physics than I have can help > me out on this: I am wondering what effect "blackbody radiation" theory > would > have on this technique. > Well I have nothing as esoteric as black body radiation or even Bose- Einstein condensates to offer but consider this. Wooden boats are usualy painted a buff or light color above the waterline so that the constant expansion and contraction of all the joints does not cause them to open and fail. I would venture that dark hives don't last as long as light colored ones. Mine are all painted earthtones to make them less visible. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:42:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: logcabin Subject: Re: Dark hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last spring we made a few hive bodies. We stained two brood boxes a little darker than natural pine. By the end of the golden rod bloom in the fall, all our hives were of equivalent strength, each one having two hive bodies. All colonies were treated with meds the same also. This past winter was rather tame but the hive that was natural(darker) had a population almost 3 times that of the hives painted white in April. Based on this, we decided to stain everything from this point on. Besides we feel that the natural hives look better. steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Bombus vosnesenskii in our yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Paul: In my opinion your bumbles are in the midst of their life cycle and to attempt to move them or some such at this time will be a total failure and wipe them out. Bumbles, as you know, are definitely not aggressive and you have to go some to get stung by one - probably by accidentally stepping on one-but they are so large that event should be rare and unless you are clomping thru flower beds. Your best bet is to attempt to persuade your wife that they offer no threat to her. The Queen will take off in the fall and find a good spot to hibernate and the rest will die off. Point out to her that they are superior pollinators and that it is a good thing that they don't look on us humans as she looks on them....... :-) Mybe show her the e-mail responses you receive. Good luck ! Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: bvining@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bill vining Subject: dark hives Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, thanks to everyone for all the information and education I've received from BEEL over the past few months. I would like to make a comment or two on the dark hive vs temperature issue. The last thing I want to do is turn this into and infrared physics class so I'll just hit the important points but there are some fundamental properties of materials and their surface characteristics that determine the amount of heat and the rate at which objects absorb and reradiate solar infrared radiation. All materials have an "emissivity rating" (between 0 and 1.0) which indicates their ability to absorb, store and reradiate heat. Since we are talking about opaque objects, 1.0 minus the emissivity rating = reflectance. Wood, brick, stone, asphalt have high emissivity ratings (0.9-0.96). They absorb most of the incident heat hold it a long time and reradiate slowly. Shiny metals have low emissivity ratings (0.3-0.6) they reflect most of the infrared radiation and cool very quickly. However the emissivity (and the reflectance) of the material has more to do with surface characteristics than the bulk properties of the material itself. A slick glossy surface on a pine board will have a lower emissivity (higher reflectance) than a rough diffuse surface. The emissivity of a family of paints will depend more on the sheen or gloss of the paint than the color. A shiny glossy black paint can have a lower emissivity than a dull rough white paint. If the surfaces are identical then the lighter paint will have a little more infrared reflectance than the darker paint. White paint seems much brighter to us than black paint only because we have visible light sensitive eyeballs. If we could "see" in the infrared region of the spectrum, things would look much different. The ability of a surface to absorb heat also depends upon the angle of incident radiation. (especially for a glossy surface). Another confusion factor is that the emissivity and reflectance values are not constant throughout the infrared spectrum. So, where are we?? If the surface characteristics of the hive bodies are the same. i.e. smoothness or "gloss", then the whiter paint may have a slightly higher infrared reflectance than the black paint, but I would guess only a few percent. On one extreme if we have a smooth glossy white surface and a dull rough black surface then the effect may be greater. But the dark painted hive, because of its' higher emissivity, would TAKE LONGER to reradiate its heat, cooling more slowly, not quicker, than the white painted hive. The amount of heat absorbed by the hive is dependent upon total surface area exposed to the sun. Is one hive shading another? Of course this aspect of hive heating does not even consider the complex thermodynamic system of the colony itself which Bill Truesdell addresses. Hope some of you are still awake after this. Thanks, bill vining Huntsville, Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:34:02 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: Dark hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >This past winter was rather tame but the hive that was natural(darker) had a >population almost 3 times that of the hives painted white in April. Although I treat my hives the same, I always have one better than the other. Shouldn't you continue the experiment for longer than one season? Linda in Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:59:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: stolen honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was examining two hives at an outyard today and noticed something strange. Two weeks ago, both hives had one almost completely capped super of honey each. At that time I added a second empty super to each. Today, one hives supers were completely empty and the other hives supers were both full. Both hives were given new queens over a month ago, but the one with the empty supers superceded and I gave them another new queen. This hive was queenless for about a week each time I requeened it. Could this be the reason why the honey was moved down from the super? ( from lack of brood) Any comments would be appreciated Ian Watson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 07:19:38 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Farrington/Bequia Canvas Subject: bees and newspaper Comments: To: Bee-L submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody. My wife and I are new beekeepers living in Bequia in the West Indies. =20 We are new to this list and are ever so impressed. I have spent hours = going through the archives and have gleaned a wealth of information. It = is amazing the knowledge that the list subscribers generate. We have a hive and a half, both started from swarms. One hive is doing = very well, thank you; the second hive was dwindling away. The dwindling = took place over several months. We couldn't understand this - the only explanation we could come up with = was that the queen was not doing her job very well, for whatever reason. = We believe that this assumption has been proven true by subsequent = events... In desperation, we decided to add bees from the healthy hive. We had a = small super with some honey in the frames. We put three layers of = newspaper under the super and added the contained bees and honey-filled = supers to the ailing box. Within two days the bees had eaten through = the paper and had added themselves to the ailing hive. We decided that this worked so well, we would do it again. This time we = added two full frames - with undrawn comb - but covered with bees to the = ailing hive. We included a super with honey to sustain them while they = chewed through the paper. After four days they had not even started their chewing - we punched a = hole in the paper to give them the idea and they subsequently went = through and have now added themselves to the ailing hive. We now notice that this poor hive has two queen cells built so we feel = that our assessment of the ineffective queen was correct. Our bees are = requeening themselves and should now recover. My question is, why did the first lot of bees chew through so quickly = and the second lot not even try? Does anybody have any ideas? Thanks for your thoughts... Bob and Carol Farrington Bequia, West Indies beqcan@caribsurf.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:16:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: logcabin Subject: Re: Dark hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Shouldn't you continue the experiment for longer than one season?< I'm sorry if I misrepresented myself with my statements because I never meant to imply that this was an experiment on my part. It was just a singular observation made off a primarily ascetic decision to stain hive parts instead of painting them white. I have had several colonies for several years in this area and this one colony with the stained exterior, was simply the best spring build up I have ever witnessed. Because my goal was to increase numbers this year, I was able to split that particular colony very early because of its brood population. To date I have split it up 2 times yielding 8. All of which are in varying states of drawing out foundation in hive bodies that stained. Both feet at once I say and learn while doing, not talking! If this spring the whities are equivalent or better I will know that it was a fluke. But all future hives will be stained because I like the look, unless of coarse I run out of stain and green paint is what I have lying around. I guarantee the following year everything new won't be green because of a similar fluke, but who knows! steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:00:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: bees and newspaper Comments: cc: beqcan@caribsurf.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/11/99 9:00:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, beqcan@CARIBSURF.COM writes: > My question is, why did the first lot of bees chew through so quickly = > and the second lot not even try? Does anybody have any ideas? They avidly peruse the food and market sections, but their real favorite is the funnies. They will ignore the sports section completely. ;o) Welcome to the list, Bob and Carol. Please tell us a bit about beekeeping in the West Indies. For example, what flowers are important? Is beekeeping an active industry? Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:24:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: fire blight disease Comments: cc: mcivan@superonline.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/9/99 7:08:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MunnPA@CARDIFF.AC.UK writes: From: Mustafa Civan > We have a problem here in Bursa in Turkey, where our bees > are.Some people don't allow to stay our bees in their villages area, > because of "fire blight" disease, which is seen on apple, pear, > quince trees. That's a good prescription for putting themselves out of the apple business. You need ten to twenty bee visits to get a quality apple, because each visit carries more pollen to the flower. If 8-10 seeds are fertilized, you have the best possible apple. If 1-2 seeds are fertilized you most likely will lose the apple in the June drop. If 3-4 seeds are fertilized you get a small, poor tasting (starchy), often lopsided apple. For quality apple/pear production you must maximize bee visits. See the web pages below for more complete information on pollination management. >I searched this disease and have found that bees carry > the bacteria (Erwinia amylovora), which causes to this disease.Bees > aren't only carrier for this, birds, other insekts and wind carry > also this bacteria, but a lot of people believe here in that the > biggest problem is honey bee for their trees. What should we > do? Because problem will be bigger, some people will exaggirate the > effects of honey bees and we can't control the situation This bacteria is always around and ready to infect susceptible trees. The worst spread I've seen is always following hail storms. Most US fruit growers immediately spray an antibiotic, if there is any hail. Honeybees can spread it, but so do hundreds of other flying insects. Since honeybees are essential for pollination, we have to deal with it in other ways. Overuse of nitrogen fertilizer is a good setup for fireblight damage. It stimulates too much tree growth, and tender new tips are the main infection sites. Don't put all the nitrogen on in the spring, only a small portion. The rest can wait until you know you have a good fruit load, so the tree won't put that nitrogen into woody growth. Dormant pruning (late winter/spring) is also a setup, because it stimulates a lot of sucker (water sprout) growth, which is highly susceptible. More and more, the orchardists are pruning in late summer, when it doesn't stimulate woody growth. Remove highly susceptible varieties and plant fireblight resistant varieties. Keep good insect control, especially for pest insects that fly from tree to tree. Insecticides must, however be used only in prebloom and postbloom. Never poison during bloom, as this kills bees. Orchardists here can get a heavy fine for pesticide misuse, if they spray during bloom. You can use the information from the pollination web pages to help people understand pollination. For example pick out the poorest apples, and show people that they don't have enough pollinated seeds, by slicing the apples crossways to show the seed pockets. With a little practice, you can quickly identify poorly pollinated apples on sight. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:43:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: dark hives In-Reply-To: <199907102143.RAA14145@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...A shiny glossy black paint can have a lower emissivity than a > dull rough white paint... It seems to me that this problem is sufficiently complex *thoretically*, at least, that experiment is the logical way to determine the truth. Radio Shack sells inexpensive hi/low remote reading recording thermometers that can be placed in light and dark boxes simulating bee hives, or even bee hives without bees (bees would confound the issue of whether one box is hotter or colder by trying to manage the heat flow). After a few days of monitoring temperatures, the trends would be obvious for the particular materials and configurations chosen. Comparison of replications by several unrelated individuals at different sites with random paints and woods and floor/lid combinations would settle once and for all whether a simple statement that dark hives are warmer than light coloured hives is generally true. I personally believe it is. As someone said, "It obviously works in practice, but can it work in theory?". Here's an easy chance for list members to stop guessing and hypothesising and do a little (rough) science. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GW Subject: Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a Question to ask the list, but first I need to give some information, I think. It was late evening and I was mowing the lawn. I decided to mow in front of two hives. No hood or vail, both double brood boxes, 2nd year colonies, LARGE colonies. Well the mower hit a stick right in front of the hive and then stopped running. Not a good place to have a break down. Their looked like 10,000 workers on each of the landing areas. Got the machine running in no time at all. Since there were part of that 10, 000 bees in my hair, poking through my shirt and in my eyebrows. Oh my :-( Finally had to leave the mower to many bees in my face and hair. Found a water hose to wash down. They finally left and I went inside to get the stingers out of my scalp and face. As I was setting there picking stingers, appx 15 minutes later, the bottom of my feet and the palms of my hands started to itch. It lasted about 30 minutes then stopped. I could not understand that since I was stung on the face and head. Can anyone tell me why this itching occurred. Thanks :-) gw Protective gear keeps you safe, WEAR IT. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:21:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: Splits & Garth In-Reply-To: CSlade777@AOL.COM's message of Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:10:27 EDT Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Inferior genes; I know a littler about genetics and I can not see how a queen because they may have not been fed correctly would produced inferior drones. I do think that home raised queens should produce inferior drones compared to a queen bought from a good queen raiser. If you do not believe this you should study genetics a little and that might change your mind. You can and will get a few inferior queens from good queen raisers but thier drones should not be inferior. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:17:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Inferior Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Partin wrote: > I do think that home raised queens should produce inferior drones > compared to a queen bought from a good queen raiser. If you do not > believe this you should study genetics a little and that might change > your mind. I have a general knowledge of genetics, but I can not see why you should get inferior drones from the daughter of a good queen obtained from a good source. If you just allow your bees to requeen themselves routinely with no attempt to select for good traits you could run downhill. But many knowledgable beekeepers routinely raise their own queens and don't find the quality of their queens, thus the quality of their drones, diminishes. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:05:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Perilla for Varroa mite control I remember not so long ago that there was a small flurry of activity on the list concerning a young lady who found out that an extract from Perilla had good activity against Varroa mites and did not hurt the bees and that she received some sort of "award" for her discovery as well as a patent for this application. It was very interesting news to me, because I just happened to plant a patch of Perilla in my garden this year and it is doing very well. I have often grown Perilla, an aromatic plant that looks something like Basil or Mint. Since I "just happen to have a bunch of it" and I also have bees (probably with mites), I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions about the best ways to proceed to experiment with using Perilla for bee mite control. I personally do not know whether the active ingredient is an essential oil of the plant or a water soluble fraction. I could just put stems/leaves inside my hives and lay them on the top bars and let the bees remove them from the hive, thus exposing them to the plants and their components as they tear them up and carry them out. I could also use steam distilling and see if I get some oil from the plant, then I could add it to, say food grade mineral oil and apply that to top bars, or I could just mascerate the plant in a blender and squeeze the resultant through a handkerchief and "spray" the liquid into the hive. Any suggestions? Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:25:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen DeHond Comments: To: Charles & Joyce , Nick Shilliff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, We put the first honey supers on 5 hives this evening, I need to assemble a few more frames and we can do the rest. All the hives are vigorous but 2 are not drawing much comb in the 2nd hive body, am considering combining them if there is not significant improvement within another week. It is interesting that these 2 hives plus a third have more bees 'on the doorstep' than the other hives, however there is brood and eggs so it is not a lack of a queen. At any rate, all appears to be going well at the moment. 1)If I decide to combine hives do I need to destroy one queen, I've seen discussion on 2 queen hives, sounds like fun to try. 2)Any thoughts on why my door sitters are less productive than the others. 3)One interesting observation I've made is that the only hive to survive the winter is my calmest hive, I LOVE them, they don't mind an occasional disturbance at all. Karen DeHond Upstate New York ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 20:46:39 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Dark hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It had been my observation that colonies in dark hives were “better” in the spring that white painted hives. I was curious what effect hive color, bottom hive heat and sun had on the bee colony behavior. In 1976 I did a temperature test on two dark colored hives to see how the bees would behave. Location: Lynnwood, WA, about mid way between Seattle and Everett Washington, USA. The hives were two story deeps with true to color Caucasian bees. The bee clusters were about 14 deep Langstroth combs covered with bees at 60 F. (15.5 C). Both pine hives were setting on six inch concrete blocks with a landing ramp at the entrance. Both were painted with a creme colored undercoat of latex paint and then two coats of green latex paint. The green color was called pine green. It was a darker green than grass green and very close to a pine tree needle color. We made a hive heater from an old western super by cutting a door on one side that was hinged. On the other inside, I mounted a light socket to hold a light bulb. The heater was painted the same as the hives. The heater box was placed on a piece of 1/2 inch exterior grade plywood. I used a 60 watt light bulb in the heater. The light was on continually during the test except for a brief period one night when the bulb burned out and was replaced the following morning. The hive bottom board above the heater was quarter inch exterior grade plywood with 3/8 inch hive entrance. The other hive had a standard reversible bottom board with the 3/8 inch entrance in use. I tracked the temperature in the two hives three times per day (8 a.m., noon, and 4:30 p.m.) for three months from mid December to about mid March. I used a long stem (10 in.) thermometer with a round dial. I can't recall the range of sensitivity exactly but it was below freezing on the low end (32F, 0C) and maybe 150F (65.5 C) at the high end. The sun was able to strike the hives from about 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. on the days it was not cloudy. Method used: 1) Place the thermometer into the middle of the hive entrance until the needle stabilized, take a reading and note it in the field notebook. 2) Place the thermometer into a small hole (the stem diameter) between the two brood nest boxes into the cluster of bees and note temperature as above. 3) Place the thermometer under the inner cover with the end of the stem just above the cluster of bees, and note the temperature in the notebook. 4) Both hives (heated and unheated) were tested in the same manner with the same thermometer. 5) Take the ambient temperature reading of an outdoor/indoor thermometer and record it in the field notebook. Results: The temperature under the cluster was always the outside or ambient temperature (even with the heater on). The lowest temperature measured in the center of the clusters was 48 F. (8.88 C.) even though we had 2-4 inches of snow on the ground in the vicinity of the hives for several days in January. The temperature above the clusters was always 10 F. above the ambient temperature no matter the time of day the reading was taken. The bee cluster never touched the hive walls during the test. They were at most between frames 1 and 2, and 9 and 10. The temperature in the cluster of the heated hive was always between five to ten degrees above that in the unheated hive. When the sun hit the side or front of the hives during the day, the bottom and top temperature readings remained as stated above. Several additional readings showed that the cluster temperature went up within 15 minutes after the sun touched the side or front of the hives. Even though the cluster temperature was up in the 60's F. (>15.5 C.) the top temperature remained ten degrees over ambient temperature. When the days lengthened in mid February (brood rearing seen) the cluster temperatures remained higher even though the ambient temperature might drop to 40 F. (4.4 C.) in the morning or evening. When the ambient temperatures reached 55 F. (12.7 C.) to 60 F. (15.5 C.) the bee clusters started to loosen and the top readings would go up during the day but would remain at ten degrees above ambient temperature in the morning and evening. At 65 F. (18.3 C.) ambient temperatures the readings were discontinued because the clusters were usually loose and we considered winter to have past. The heated colony used about three less combs of honey during the winter than the unheated colony. It also had about three more combs of brood by early March than the unheated colony. Both colonies appeared to cluster with the same density, and were quiet on the comb when they were manipulated the previous fall and in late February. Deductions: a) The bee cluster was able to control the escape of heat at the top of the cluster between 32F and 60 F. b) The temperature at the bottom and sides (though not measured) of the bee clusters was not affected by the sun striking the hive, or the hive heater, during the reading activity. d) The radiant heat from the sun and hive heater was absorbed by the cluster of bees through the wood of the hive and bottom board, during the winter, without changing the heat loss above the cluster. e) Perhaps the wood hive is less of an insulator for the cluster and more of a wind and weather protector. f) Perhaps the exterior hive color doesn’t affect the hive temperature as much as it does the bee cluster temperature and the bee energy needed to maintain colony temperature. Other observations over the years suggest that a dark green hive will winter better i.e. with less use of honey stores, and larger clusters than white painted hives. In one apiary (in April), consisting of white, light gray, and dark hives the beekeeper was surprised at the temperature difference to his hand on the sunny side of the hives when he put it on the three colors of hives. As we opened the hives we observed that the darker hives all had more bees in them than the white and gray ones. When asked, he thought they were all about the same size clusters going into the winter. This hive color affect is also visible during spring pollination activities where both white and unpainted or stained hives are operated by the same beekeeper. One beekeeper here stained a hundred or more new pine hives with cedar lids with a dark wood color and compared them from May (as splits) to the following June to see how hive color might affect cluster size and bee flight during marginal pollination weather. Colonies in dark hives were larger and flew better at cooler temperatures in the spring than his white ones. It would be nice to compare white and green hives under the same conditions using the above methods. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:07:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bernd Kuemmel Subject: Re: Heat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain To comment on Al Lipscomb: I rember the Penman-Monteith equation describing the physiology of water evaporation from plants that I believe can be applied in this case too. So the water pressure _deficit_, ie the difference in the amount of water vapour that the air could hold at the surface temperature to the one of the air's temperature is the driving agent, and not the relative humidity. The surface temperature here would be the one of the bees, alternatively of the honeycombs, the air temperature would be the one measured outside the hive in order to avoid potential condensation problems (as the humidity from inside the hive has to be transported to the outside). One _only_ has to find the proper aerodynamic resistance for the latent heat transfer (ie the drying of the honey) to be computed :-)) As the saturated water pressure depends _about_ exponentially to the air temperature, the higher the temperature the larger the evaporative deficit, everthing else equal. This also means that the _same relative humidity_ will result in higher evaporative deficit at higher than at lower temperatures, everthing else equal. "Beyond the flower source issues, bees are evaporating water out of the nectar to bring it down to the water levels needed for honey. This should be affected by the _relative humidity_ of the air in their environment. " Sincerely Med venlig hilsen Bernd Kuemmel ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Bernd Kuemmel, stud.lic. (PhD.stud.) Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University (KVL) Agrovej 10 + DK-2630 Taastrup V: (+45) 35 28 35 33 + F: (+45) 35 28 21 75 http://www.agsci.kvl.dk/~bek/cfehtml.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:02:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Splits & Garth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Chris slade asks: > Aaron, > Can you tell us how, genetically, inferior drones might pass on inferior > genes ("polluting the gene pool" is what you communicated) Geez, I don't know, I was cuttin' the "inferior walk away splits" camp some slack. I was thinking along the lines that inferior queens could produce inferior drones and that inferiority could be passed on to another generation. Poor genes being passed on was not my point, possibly wimpy drones coming from a wimpy queen was more along the lines of what I was saying, which I stated was "unsubstaitaited speculation" on my part. Please don't take me too seriously, I don't! > What has happened to Garth? I hope he has kept well. I don't know, but Garth comes and Garth goes - most times without telling his mailer that's he's away and his BEE-L mail bounces back to me. Garth does this often enough that I have filters set up to delete "Garth bound" undeliverable mail. He's probably off on hiatis somewhere, I suspect he'll be back. Sincerely, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:56:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Heat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >As the saturated water pressure depends _about_ exponentially to the air >temperature, the higher the temperature the larger the evaporative deficit, >everthing else equal. >This also means that the _same relative humidity_ will result in higher evaporative >deficit at higher than at lower temperatures, everthing else equal. I think I understand a little of what you are saying here. But most of it went over my head. Does this require the hive (honeycomb) to be warmer than the air for maximum transfer? Or is the other way around? I know that the bees like to keep the brood at around 95 degrees F, but I am not sure how that would factor into the temperature of the comb in the honey storage areas. How would evaporation change as the outside temperature started out lower than the honycomb, and then rose above it as the day got hotter? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:00:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: porch bees Comments: cc: kdehond@netacc.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/12/99 7:31:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kdehond@NETACC.NET writes: > All the hives are > vigorous but 2 are not drawing much comb in the 2nd hive body, am > considering combining them if there is not significant improvement within > another week. It is interesting that these 2 hives plus a third have more > bees 'on the doorstep' than the other hives, however there is brood and > eggs so it is not a lack of a queen. I've noticed that, in hot weather, the rattiest hives often have the most active bees, which I attribute to ventilation (some of us who don't have an outside job to support our beekeeping, have well ventilated supers). Try setting the top super a little back so they have a 3/4 inch crack to ventilate from. When the flow is over and cooler weather returns, put them back on tightly, if you don't remove the supers, or they can be vulnerable to robbing. (I have to make sure not to have these "well ventilated" supers on during robbing periods, or risk hives being robbed out.) Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:25:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Splits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Thom Bradley asks major questions on queen rearing in his recent post. His best course of action IMHO, is to get hold of a book on Queen rearing, or better still or perhaps in addition, get in touch with a good beekeeper experienced in this activity, and well versed in the local beekeeping scene. Not an easy one to master in a short time!. My first hesitant steps in this direction this year have convinced me at any rate that it is far from simple to master, (if it ever can be really mastered!). I would imagine that it will take me many seasons before I am even moderately competent at queen rearing. Possibly the easiest thing to do is to rear a queen. However, I am of the opinion that it is quite another matter to rear queens which are consistently of good quality, docile, little inclined to swarming, not overly given to robbing and really good foragers. Now throw in resistance to disease and you have a really good product. And then you may discover that some of these qualities are in conflict with one another so that you have to get yourself into trade-off situations. Rearing good queens is something to be aimed at, but I am convinced it will take a lot of study and correct work and will not happen overnight. But then who said that beekeeping was simple anyway?! Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:55:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Apistan and walkaway splits? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thought I'd try this one again. Is it safe to make "Walk-away" splits while strips are on the hives, or is there a negative impact on queen development, breeding, fecundity, etc. Haven't found much of use in the archives on this. Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:05:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bombus vosnesenskii in our yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Paul Powers wrote: > Bombus Vosnesenskii (a native California bumble bee) nesting in an > abandoned gopher hole in our front yard. The bumble bees are very > docile and there really is no need at present to take any action to > remove them. My wife is afraid of the bees and wants them off our > property just in case. Keep bees, move wife! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:45:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907122347.TAA06614@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Thom Bradley asks major questions on queen rearing in his > recent post. His best course of action IMHO, is to get > hold of a book on Queen rearing... Or a pile of books on queen rearing. Even though we have had courses on queen rearing and raised many thousands of queens, there have been some pretty basic questions we just needed answers for. One thing in particular that interested me was the matter of the quality of emergency queens. I've asked a few of those questions here and if any one really knows the answers, he or she is keeping mum. I have no problem getting people to guess and repeat 'old wives tales', or get mad, but as for the real low-down, or references to respectable research results, nothing was forthcoming. So, this spring, I broke down and phoned Eileen McCutcheon and said, "Send me all the books you have on queen rearing that are any good at all". She was somewhat surprised, and asked how much I wanted to spend -- and if there was a limit. My response was that when we are considering spending over $20,000 a year on queens, and when one solitary queen costs is $12 to $14, we were prepared to pay whatever it costs, but to hold back any books that were of doubtful value. I told here which ones we already have to avoid duplication. A week or less later, a box of books arrived and a bill attached was for $163.17, including tax and shipping. We spend many hours mulling through them and found that there were quite a variety of approaches, and that each added something that another did not. We also found that they did not all agree on some pretty basic points. One had a nifty calculator to figure out when to start the grafting based on drone brood and desired date for having an established queen. All in all, I found that an hour of reading any of the books was worth ten hours reading BEE-L and 20 hours on sci.agriculture.beekeeping. In the past, I have had some disparaging things to say about bee books, mostly based on my own experience almost 30 years ago with the beginner books. I have collected some more advanced books since then, but considered the field to be fairly narrow. At this point, I have to change my tune and admit that, in the past several decades, there have come into existence some truly fine books on beekeeping. For the price of one computer, or even one beehive, a lot of good information can be had in a very convenient format. In spite of the amount of bee info on the internet, including my own pages, I am inclined to think that books currently have the edge. That is one reason that I am not as active here as I once was. If I want quality information, I do try the net, but I know now, that I'm better off ordering some books -- or re-reading the ones I have. I'm also thinking I should re-join the IBRA and pony up some cash to get the real answer to some of my questions. I know their research is expensive, but the cost of ignorance is much higher. Best regards to all. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:47:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LJConnor@AOL.COM Subject: Queen Rearing Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with the writer that there are some useful books on queen rearing out there, and it can be pretty productive to read one or more of them. The latest on the subject is Harry Laidlaw and Rob Page's 224 page masterpiece titled Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding. It contains a nice balance of practical queen rearing methods as well as a solid introduction to bee genetics—which ultimately becomes an issue when a beekeeper becomes serious about queen rearing. It also has lots of nice pictures and drawings! Most of the world's major bee supply houses carry this title, and you can order it from the dot.coms as well. My price is $25 plus $2.95 surface mail any where in the world, and I have them ready to ship. For those of you who care but don't know, my personal background includes the leadership of a bee breeding program in Florida for Dadant and Sons and York Bee Company. Called Genetic Systems we mass produced instrumentally inseminated queen bees for production colonies. It was a noble effort, but we closed the business in 1980 because we proved we could not compete with mother nature. The genetic stock went to Hybrid Bees, and included the Starline and Midnite programs. Of the lessons learned in this adventure are the following: 1. There is a tremendous amount of Important information we do not know about what makes a good queen. A few scientists have addressed this issue (especially John Harbo), but we still have lots of unanswered questions. 2. Most beekeepers are not very well educated about using queen bees, and would rather listen to someone with an "easy" method rather than read a book or article written by an experienced author. Plus, most commercial queen producers have learned a great deal about queen rearing—they have to or they would be out of business—and most of them are quite willing to answer questions. If you are really serious about queen rearing, offer to work for one of the queen producers for free. It might be the best investment you will ever make in your beekeeping training. 3. Instrumentally inseminated queens are not the same as naturally mated queens. That does not mean that they are necessarily bad, but they do require different management from NM queens. I can go on, but you get the point. I am always glad to help beekeepers who are trying to develop a good reading list, and I will email you a short list of beekeeping titles if you reply to LJCONNOR@AOL.COM and request one. Oh, and for those of you who don't know and don't care, your delete key is probably clearly marked—please don't send me any hate mail. I appreciate that, since it gives me more time for those who do care! Larry Connor, Ph.D Wicwas Press (Beekeeping Books, Slide Sets, Video Tapes and Educational Posters) P.O. Box 817 Cheshire CT 06410-0817 Phone 203 272 6574 Fax 203 250 7575 email: LJCONNOR@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:14:19 -0700 Reply-To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Hasta B. Shasta" Subject: Re: bees and newspaper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My bees favor the Home & Garden section, although the drones seem to congregate on the stock market reports. Pollinator@AOL.COM wrote: > They avidly peruse the food and market sections, but their real favorite > is the funnies. They will ignore the sports section completely. > ;o) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:23:59 -0700 Reply-To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Hasta B. Shasta" Subject: Re: Perilla for Varroa mite control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The most obvious method to try might be drying the plant and using it as smoker fuel. Additionally, since it appears you are seeking an oil soluble substance, why not try extraction with sesame oil, a method that is used for isolating floral perfumes. Your idea is so interesting, I wonder if you can suggest sources for the plant or its seed? Musashi wrote: > It was very interesting news to me, because I just happened to plant a patch of > Perilla in my garden this year and it is doing very well. I have often grown > Perilla, an aromatic plant that looks something like Basil or Mint. Since I > "just happen to have a bunch of it" and I also have bees (probably with mites), > I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions about the best ways to proceed to > experiment with using Perilla for bee mite control. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:16:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Daniel Thommen Subject: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To answer Greg Hankins's message about "Apistan and walkaway splits?" I wanted to talk about the efficiency of Apistan. I red other messages about Apistan treatement and I just wanted to warn you about the mites getting resistant to fluvialinate wich is the active substance in apistan. Over here, we used Apistan for several years, and a lot of us did not control the efficiency of the treatment. 2 Years ago a lot of beekeepers had a bad surprise. We actually lost about 30% of our hives and think that this was due to the inefficiency of apistan against Varroa. So I wonder if other beekeepers made the same experience. Daniel ______________________________________________ Daniel Thommen (10 DB hives at 420 m ) Grand Pré 76 1202 Geneva (Switzerland) http://www.club-association.ch/apigeneve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:57:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Huber Subject: Cluster Temperature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear BEE-L, On July 11 James Bach wrote, in part: > The lowest temperature measured in >the center of the clusters was 48 F. (8.88 C.) even though we had 2-4 inches >of snow on the ground in the vicinity of the hives for several days in >January. The temperature above the clusters was always 10 F. above the >ambient temperature no matter the time of day the reading was taken.> .......... These temperatures sound way too low to me. Years ago I helped my daughter do a cluster temperature measuring experiment and we found that the center of the cluster was always about 95 degrees F no matter how cold it got outside. Even at minus 20 degrees ambient! That result is in agreement with what others have found. Maybe the queen is always laying an egg or two in the center of the cluster? I wonder if maybe James' temperature measuring method might have been bothered by too much heat conduction to the outside by the very probe being used to measure the temperature. Or perhaps the bees were scattering away from the probe as it entered the cluster. My daughter and I used a thermistor probe coupled to the outside by very thin wires. We kept a set of thin-walled, low heat conductivity, tubes in the hive to permit guiding the probe into the cluster in a number of places in a non-intrusive way. Ernie Huber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:37:27 -0500 Reply-To: dcgfarms@icubed.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dougb Organization: Dream Catcher Glen Farms Subject: Preparing Show Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to show some of my honey and comb honey at the local fairs. Would someone point me to information on how to prepare, bottle, etc. honey for showing? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Here's a Strange Request . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I need a cartoon of a bee bride and groom. I know it sounds dumb -- is dumb -- but you do dumb things when your daughter's getting married! Any help much appreciated. Please respond directly to me so we don't clutter up bee-l. Thanks, Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:14:50 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Queen Rearing Information In-Reply-To: <199907131659.MAA23412@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I quite agree with Larry Connor ... > 2. Most beekeepers are not very well educated about using queen bees, >and would rather listen to someone with an "easy" method rather than read a ... What I believe the most significant concerning the young queens is to understand that they are "young"! I do not very like the (bad) antropomorphic comparisons, but that, the bee-keepers always understand it. If you compare a young queen with a thirteen year old girl (they are young but they lays eggs !), they immediately see the difference with a woman of twenty-five, thirty years. No difficulty ... but here we have the same difference!=20 If you place this young girl in a mafia of a great quantity of hurdy-gurdies bitches and that you their known that she'll be their future head. They will kill it on the first occasion. You'll get no problem if you put them in a group of gentle teenagers (very young, nurse or emerging bees)! Understand ? Then "forewarned is forearmed" and pay great attention when these queens are not yet surrounded by her offspring (at least 21 days).=20 On this subject, the 1950 article (in German - full article in 1950, in English (abstract only) 1951, and in French -full article in 1952) of Brother Adam is ALWAYS UP-TO-DATE: you will be able to read it on the URL: http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/FAintroBW51en.html an abstract in English http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/FAintroSBZ50de.html Die Artikel auf deutsch http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/FAintroBA52fr.html l'article en fran=E7ais Hoping for how this will help to avoid the killings of this lot of poor young queens!=20 Jean-Marie Van Dyck < list-owner of the french speaking list ABEILLES to subscribe send SUBSCRIBE ABEILLES in the body of a mail to majordomo@fundp.ac.be multilingual (6 different languages) homage to Brother Adam on http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:25:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Preparing Show Honey References In-Reply-To: <199907140137.VAA03643@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I would like to show some of my honey and comb honey at the local fairs. > Would someone point me to information on how to prepare, bottle, etc. > honey for showing? Roger Morse wrote a book on the subject, intended audience was more for judges at honey shows, but it is good for fair competetors too. Unfortunately I do not know the title, perhaps Larry Connor can help out. An excerpt from my beekeeping association newsletter follows. At the May general membership meeting, Fred Ludewig spoke about preparing honey for market. The most memorable point Fred made in his presentation was that when you are preparing honey for market, "remember that you are handling food. Handle it as you would have someone else handle YOUR food!" Another point Fred made was that you want the honey in your bottle to be as close as possible to the drop of honey you'd get if you stuck a toothpick or straw into honeycomb freshly taken from your hives. You want your honey in the jar to sparkle as if it had just come from the comb! Other points to consider when preparing honey for market include: · Jars MUST be clean, and final package should not be sticky! · Make sure there are no foreign particles, air bubbles or foam in your jars. · Fill your jars completely, no air should show below the cap. · Moisture content must be below 18.6% · Comb honey should be free of pollen and have a minimum of uncapped cells. Ideally comb honey will have been frozen to eliminate risk of wax moth contamination and thawed in a manner to minimize condensation. Aaron Morris - thinking blue ribbons! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:29:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bee Sting In-Reply-To: <199907140144.VAA03773@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by Curtiscrow@WORLDNET.ATT.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quote of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3C0F64C4) (70 lines) ------------------- From: "C. Crowell" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: Bee Stings Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 GW in his original msg reported mowing his lawn in front of two heavily "bearded" hives (lots of bees hanging out near the entrance). His mower stalled, he restarted it, and in the process got stung by many bees. Shortly after removing the stingers he felt tingling in his hands and feet. My suspicion is that the volume of toxin started to produce a shock-like class of symptoms, wherein the body feels that it is under stress and attempts to reduce cirulation to the extremities (hands, feet) in order to preserve vital organs centered about the torso (including the head). It's not unlike the tingling when you are on your feet for too long in a strained position and your feet "go to sleep". I would be concerned if you had a similar reaction later in response to much less venom, in other words you may become sensitized to the venom. The possibility is that you might get a more severe reaction the next time. You don't give your age, but it might be prudent to ask your doctor if you might be a candidate for an epi-pen. He might also recommend that you not work the hives alone, at least for the next time (to see if your sting sensitivity has changed). I am not a doctor, but I have been following the "sting" thread on this interest group. I'm also a NJ EMT. /C.Crowell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:14:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: eparker Subject: Drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone, I would like to include drone trapping in my mite control program. Two methods have been mentioned on the list. The first method placed a frame into the brood chamber with the center of the foundation removed hoping the bees will fill the void with drone cells. I'm trying that now. The second method requires drone foundation but I can't find a supplier. If anyone knows where I can purchase some please let me know. Thank you Ed Parker Serenity Gardens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:56:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: Drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: As a method of mite control through drone trapping, you may wish to contact Doug McRory, Ontario Provincial apiarist. dmcrory@omafra.gov.on.ca. He has recently written an article in the Ontario Beekeepers' Association(OBA) newsletter "The Sting" vol.17 no.3 p.18. Doug maybe able to electronically transfer a copy of the article to you? The OBA, http://www.tcc.on.ca/~ontbee/ , as yet does not have "The Sting" online. Doug's method basically is to place two hives side by side, super both with a single q excl.over the centre of both boxes, this leaves a space on either side for the exchange of frames. Doug's article is in more detail. If you have not already, try http://www.beeworks.com , for drone fdn. Questions, please contact me. Joys in beekeeping, Keith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:42:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Preparing Show Honey References MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al Delicata, for whom the EAS prize for comb honey is named, taught me most of what I know about showing honey, and what I got out of it was most failures come during the visual inspection of the jar and contents. Moisture content is next. The tie breaker is taste and that can be subjective, so getting past the visual is most important. Same for comb honey. Which means clean, imperfection free jar, lid and honey. That includes the inside of the jar lid. The judges are looking for anything to disqualify an entree. They are not looking forward to judging by taste, because then there can be disagreements between the judges. But find an insignificant ripple in the glass, a speck of pollen or bubble in the honey, a bit of wax or foam on the top, a tiny scratch on the inside or edge of the jar lid and out it goes. No disagreement because it can be seen. Same for comb honey. White cappings, no open cells and uniform from edge to edge and same for the other side. The plastic or wood must be clean and imperfection free. There is no free honey.... again, what you see.... Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:43:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" Subject: Drone Trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit E. Parker asked for a source of drone foundation. We obtained ours from Bob Stevens at Betterbee,Inc. in Greenwich, NY. He might try Bob, who is on Bee-L and has an eMail address. Otherwise, try the other areawide suppliers and if unsuccessful perhaps we can help, as we have never used that which we have. cchaseiii @ aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:05:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Flanders Subject: OnLine Beekeeping Newsletters? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith B. Forsyth wrote on 7/14/99 about an Ontario Beekeepers' Association newsletter ("The Sting") that wasn't yet on-line. The thought occurred to me that subscribers to this list probably are aware of many excellent bee-related newsletters published on the Net. I would enjoy learning about them, both for my personal education and to share info with our Nebraska Beekeepers Association newsletter editor. Any recommendations? --Rog Flanders, Nemaha County, Nebraska, USA (1 Samuel 14:25 "And all they of the land came to a wood; and there was honey upon the ground.") ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:07:25 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: Apitherapy for Beekeepers Workshop. Vancouver, Sept. '99. Comments: To: Apither-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello dear apitherapy and Bee friends, The time is flying so quickly... September, with its extraordinary event, Apimondia Congress, Vancouver, Canada, 1999 will come pretty soon. As most of you know, I'm doing my best in organizing the first ever held to an Apimondia Congress, "Apitherapy for Beekeepers" Workshop. We will have a relative large room (over 300 seats), but if you keep in mind that over 4,000 people are awaited in Vancouver, you may see that our room may be pretty small... So, if you want to participate to this important event, please send me a private message and we will try to reserve you a place. Also, any other questions or comments related to this Workshop are most welcome! Best wishes, yours, Stefan Stangaciu. PS Among the topics which will be discussed with several apitherapy experts are: Bee Venom Therapy for beekeepers. Rules on bee products collection for medicinal use. Use of fresh collected honey, pollen, royal jelly, propolis in the treatment of various diseases. Principles of apitherapy. Apitherapy - Sources of Information. Tips for a successful apitherapy oriented beekeeper etc., etc. Altogether it will be a very intensive practical course on apitherapy, so, if interested, contact us for details. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel Thommen wrote: > 2 Years ago a lot of beekeepers had a bad surprise. We actually lost about > 30% of our hives and think that this was due to the inefficiency of apistan > against Varroa. > So I wonder if other beekeepers made the same experience. I have treated fall and spring with Apistan for years now, but a few days ago noticed a lot of worker bees crawling on the ground in the vicinity of one of my hives. On inspection, every one of them had deformed wings, so I knew varroa got to them. It has been only about six weeks since I removed the Apistan strips, therefore obviously I have begun to experience varroa resistance to Apistan. I made a quick call to get some Check-Mite (coumaphos) strips, pulled the supers (4 of them, two thirds filled), and inserted these dangerous looking things into the hive. While in the colony I pulled drone pupae and checked for mites - about three/fourths of the pupae had mites. I then looked at other colonies in the same yard, pulled drones, but they all were still clean. It looks like resistance is developing, but yet spotty. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:01:39 -0500 Reply-To: jjerseys@kdsi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jacklyn Smith Subject: problems getting bees to accept new equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I am a newcomer to the list and a new beekeeper to boot. I purchased 2 lovely hives this Spring from a veteran beekeeper in the area. Unfortunately he had no extra honey supers to sell so I purchased new supers, frames and foundation (duraguilt from Dadant). I am happy to say we survived the swarming season and the bees are pulling in pollen and nectar like crazy. Both have new queens that are laying well. Problem is, the bees almost refuse to draw out new comb on the new equipment. These hives are composed of 3 Illinois supers so I have exchanged outer, nectar filled frames from the brood nest (no brood, just nectar and some capped honey) with new frames. Voila, bees finally began to draw comb and fill it. I then put the frames back into the honey super and despite the fact there is now action in the honey supers, work seems to have ceased as far as finishing the job. The bees have immediate access to 80+ acres of clover, trefoil, catnip and such. They are bringing in nectar but it appears they are storing and capping it on the edges of the brood frames, anywhere but in the honey supers. These hives are healthy and packed with bees. Any suggestions or should I just bide my time? Healthy bees are better than no bees but it might be nice to get a little honey out of the bargain! Thanks for your help, Jacklyn Smith Brighton, IA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:45:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >I have treated fall and spring with Apistan for years now, but a few days ago >noticed a lot of worker bees crawling on the ground in the vicinity of one of >my hives. On inspection, every one of them had deformed wings, so I knew >varroa got to them. It has been only about six weeks since I removed the >Apistan strips, therefore obviously I have begun to experience varroa >resistance to Apistan. I made a quick call to get some Check-Mite (coumaphos) >strips. Now that there are two treatments available for Varroa mites, should there not be some thought into rotating the treatments to reduce the chances of resistant mites? For example, spring treatment with Check-Mite and fall treatment with Apistan? Since coumaphos is a nastier chemical, maybe only one treatment in four (fall of odd years)? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:20:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Be carefull with COUMOPHOS!!! In-Reply-To: <199907141714.NAA18614@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... rotating the treatments to reduce the chances of > resistant mites? For example, spring treatment with Check-Mite and fall > treatment with Apistan? In New York state it is recommended that you only use Coumophos if you have determined that your varroa mites are resistent to Apistan. That means, you treat with Apistan, do a post treatment test to see if varroa remain (remember Apistan should knock down 98% of the mites). Only if you have post treatment varroa mites should you resort to Coumophos. I fear coumophos will be a real disaster for the beekeeping industry. It's far nastier than Apistan but I doubt beekeepers will handle it as such. I suspect it will be used with a cavalier attitude with little regard for the warnings on the label. I fear beekeepers will be lax about treatment times, "Do I really have to take the strips out in late fall, can't I leave them in all winter?". I'm sure there will be honey contamination and most disconcertingly, there will be beekeeper contamination. "Yeah, I read where it said use thick nitrile rubber gloves when I handle the stuff but I didn't think they meant it. Now I wonder why my fingers are always numb?" And when the media picks up on the large quantities of contaminated honey we won't be able to give it away! Remember apples and alar? The good news is there is a 0% tolerance for coumophos in honey. Once detected FDA says it'll yank the approvals. Frankly, I don't understand why the industry has even opened this pandoras box. Because it's here now and our bees are dieing!? I fear it will be a case where the cure kills the patient, or the treatment kills the industry. Aaron Morris - thinking coumophos? Not in my hives! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:47:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al, The FDA has stated that everyone that receives coumaphos strips will have honey checked for traces of the chemical. Any violations and the strip will be pulled. That being the case -despite the obvious logic of your statement- I would recommend that only those with hive beetle problems and resistant varroa should use the strips. I believe research several years ago showed some disruption in brood patterns as well. Am I "mis-remembering"? Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA "Lipscomb, Al" wrote: I made a quick call to get some Check-Mite > (coumaphos) > >strips. > > Now that there are two treatments available for Varroa mites, should there > not be some thought into rotating the treatments to reduce the chances of > resistant mites? > > Since coumaphos is a nastier chemical, maybe only one treatment in four > (fall of odd years)? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:40:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The FDA has stated that everyone that receives coumaphos strips will >have honey checked for traces of the chemical. Any violations and the >strip will be pulled. That being the case -despite the obvious logic of >your statement- I would recommend that only those with hive beetle >problems and resistant varroa should use the strips. > I believe research several years ago showed some disruption in brood >patterns as well. Am I "mis-remembering"? Based on your and Aaron's statments it sounds like this chemical is even more nasty than I thought. What scares me is that the bee supply catalogs are pushing this stuff without the above information. To read them (and their web pages) you would get the idea that this is a product that would be treated just like Apistan. Apistan is doing a fine job for me at present, I am thinking that we need a way to rotate treatments but with what is still the question. Thanks for the informed response! (I _was_ going to order some coumaphos when my Apistan ran out). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan In-Reply-To: <199907141831.OAA20937@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thom Bradley wrote: > I believe research several years ago showed some disruption in brood >patterns as well. Am I "mis-remembering"? In researching my original question about the potential affects of Apistan on queen-rearing in splits i searched the bee-l archives and found a few posts from 1995 that discussed the possibility that queens stopped laying while the strips were on and/or that e brood morty occured. Consensus of the posts seemed to be that, if either occured, it was probably related to early recommendations for heavier dosing than what is in use now. Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina