From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:23 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27354 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11126 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11126@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:16 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9907C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 158790 Lines: 3489 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:30:33 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Cluster temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ernest Huber questions the 48 F. temperature data I gave in my post about measuring temperatures in two bee hives. I was surprised also, that is why I think it is accurately fixed in my mind (though 23 years often does affect memory). I had read about cluster temperature during brood rearing periods but I had never read that temperatures had been measured in the middle of winter when there was no brood rearing. All the literature I've read either notes that brood rearing was going on, or the quoted research was done at times when brood rearing is normally expected and can be reasonably assumed. I no longer have the actual data I collected so I wrote from memory. I do recall my surprise at the low data at the time but I also knew there was no brood rearing in the Caucasian colonies at the time. I also know that when brood rearing started in the first or second week of January that mid-cluster temperatures went up to 95 F. and stayed within one or two degrees. I don't think heat conduction was the problem because the thermometer I used is the same one used by our dairy and food inspectors to measure internal temperatures in various substances. I also don't think that the bees were scattering away from the probe. The insertion point was deliberately selected as that space defined as the intersecting point of two diagonal lines, one drawn from the bottom bar of frame 5 in the top box to the top bar of frame 6 in the bottom box, and another drawn from the bottom bar of frame 6 in the top box to the top bar of frame 5 in the bottom box. The colony remained quiet during the five second insertion time. I deliberately inserted the thermometer slowly so as not to disturb the colony. Italian and mixed strain colonies may behave differently under the same conditions under which I tested the Caucasian colonies. It should also be noted that different colonies cluster at different densities at the same ambient temperature. Presumably if a colony clusters loosely it will require the expenditure of more energy to maintain cluster temperature than a more tightly clustered colony and internal temperatures may go up under these conditions. I presume because I've not tested the hypothesis and don't know of anyone who has. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Be carefull with COUMOPHOS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I admit I kind of started this by stating that I ordered and placed some Check-Mite strips. However, these strips are scary things, and I would never use them in colonies that didn't show varroa resistance to Apistan. However, when such resistance does appear, I would rather protect my bees than let them die. It is really pitiful to see bees crawling all over the ground with deformed wings - it would be nice if the colony would just allow them to be hive bees and not have to forage. But that is not what bees are programmed to do. If they aren't perfect, out they go! Back to coumaphos: The label is pretty specific about how long to leave the strips in the hive - 42 days, but no longer than 45 days. It emphasizes that no honey must be collected for surplus, no supers can be on the hives, as long as the strips are in place. There is nothing about requiring nitrile gloves, it just says that the stuff may cause skin irritation and that use of gloves will avoid that. The label does say that coumaphos is dangerous to birds and fish, and that the chemical must not enter the water supply. Strangely enough, the required disposal method is to wrap the used strips in several layers of newspaper and send to the local landfill. I really doubt that beekeepers will use coumaphos with a cavalier attitude. The strips come in a sealed plastic package of five each, and each box of two packages comes with the two page warning label directions. They are also expensive - a box of 10 strips costs US$21.75 (or US$28.00 each if ordering 1 - 10 boxes). One can't just open up a cardboard box and break apart 100 strips. You are constantly reminded that the stuff is dangerous and must be used with caution, and only when necessary. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:47:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I totally agree with Aaron. Coumaphos should never be used in place of Apistan. Some people "just want to try it", because it is NEW - no other reason. That is sick! Gosh, I wish people would pay attention to the scientists, and READ THE LABEL! The mites have destroyed enough bees. Now we are going to destroy more bees with coumaphos, and maybe even some beekeepers. Don't ASSUME your bees are resistant to Apistan (they probably are not). Use Apistan and than TEST YOUR BEES FOR VARROA immediately after treating. If honey gets contaminated with coumaphos, surely the government will NOT allow you to sell honey until every ounce passes some expensive testing created by the government. People may have to get a doctor's prescription to buy a jar of honey if that happens. The only bees that have been found resistant to Apistan are from colonies where the Apistan use was abused (too many strips in the hive or strips left in the hive for several months - Remember Miticur - same thing - ABUSE. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:39:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> Greg Hankins 07/14/99 03:08PM wrote:>>> In researching my original question about the potential affects of Apistan on queen-rearing in splits i searched the bee-l archives and found a few posts from 1995 that discussed the possibility that queens stopped laying while the strips were on and/or that e brood morty occured. Consensus of the posts seemed to be that, if either occured, it was probably related to early recommendations for heavier dosing than what is in use now. Hi Greg, An article in the American Bee Journal Feb. 1999 reported that Apistan treatment did have negative effects on drones reared while treatment was in the hive. The researchers did not report any research on possible effects on queens reared during treatment but if you don't have good drone production mating could be a problem. The conclusion of the article was to not have the strips in the colony during drone production. blane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:24:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Be careful with COUMOPHOS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When EPA issued the Section 18 Approval for coumophos in New York state, I reported about it in the newsletter of my local beekeeping association. My source was a newsletter from Cornell University. Excerpts from my newsletter, which contained excerpts from Cornell's newsletter follow. ... EPA issued Section 18 approval of Coumophos on March 9, 1999 for CheckMite+ä, a strip formulation of the chemical. This means that New York beekeepers with the small hive beetle or Apistan resistant mites can obtain this chemical legally for pest management. Important highlights include: 1. The product, called CheckMite+ (also known as Bayer Bee Strips), contains 10% coumophos. 2. A total 34,900 CheckMite+ Strips were approved: 29,300 to control varroa mites and 8,000 to control small hive beetles. 3. Treatments must be applied at a time when bees are not producing a surplus honey crop. 8 mil NITRILE RUBBER gloves must be worn when handling strips. 4. To control varroa mites, use one strip for each five combs of bees in each brood chamber (Langstroth deep frames or equivalent in other sizes). Hang the strips within two combs of the edge of the bee cluster. If two deep supers are used for the brood nest, hang CheckMite+ strips in alternate corners of the cluster, in the top and bottom super. Remove honey supers before application of CheckMite+ strips and do not replace until the end of the control period. Treat all infested colonies within the yard. The treatment is most effective when brood rearing is lowest. Effective control may be achieved by treating hives in the spring before the first honey flow and in the fall after the last honey flow. Leave the strips in the hive for at least 42 days (six weeks). Do not leave strips in hive for more than 45 days. Do not treat more than twice a year for varroa mites. 5. To control the small hive beetle, prepare a piece of corrugated cardboard approximately 4x4 inches by removing one side. Remove one CheckMite+ strip. Cut strip in half cross ways and staple the two pieces to the corrugated side of the cardboard. Place as near to the center of the bottom board as possible with the strips down. Leave at least three days. 6. The Section 18 use of coumophos impregnated in plastic strips to be hung in beehives has been classified as a non-food use and no tolerances will be established in either honey or beeswax. 7. The EPA Headquarters and Regional offices shall be immediately informed of any adverse effects or misuse resulting from the use of this pesticide in connection with this exemption. 8. In accordance with 40 CFR 166.32, a report summarizing the results of this program must be submitted to EPA Headquarters and the EPA Region II offices by October 8, 2000. 9. This specific exemption expires March 8, 2000. >------------------------ End of Excerpt ---------------------------------< Now, I'm just not left with a warm fuzzy feeling for this product. The track record for Apistan shows that a large number of beekeepers did not follow the labels. It's undeniable. Some were suspicious at first, but most got comfortable with using the strips and after a few years Apistan use became second nature. Now CheckMite+ hits the scene, and most beekeepers are receiving the product with open arms, glad to have a new harmless strip to replace the failing Apistan. It just ain't so! If EPA sticks to it's guns (0 tolerance of residues), coumophos will be gone in a year. I doubt that will happen. When is zero not zero? When economic pressures say so. However, rather than complacently receiving this new product with a collective sigh of relief, there should be a collective cry, a TUMULTUOUS DEMAND from the beekeeping industry that better tools, SAFER tools be brought to market. Why is it that a nasty product like coumophos can be brought to market so quickly when efforts to approve formic acid have been thwarted at every turn for well over a decade now? What's wrong with this picture? Why is it that beekeepers are blindly accepting EPA's decision that nerve poison can be safely impregnated into plastic stips for safe distribution and use, yet we continue to allow a more benign product to be denied to us. I thought beekeepers were a more cantankerous group, but perhaps our reputation is over rated. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Swintosky, Michael D." Subject: Apistan, Coumaphos, Pasteurization Legislation Rumors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Our club will be making a bulk purchase of Apistan strips shortly. We, too, were surprised and somewhat alarmed at the degree to which suppliers are pushing coumaphos. One supplier even expressed an intention to discontinue selling Apistan entirely! I find it somewhat unsettling that there is such a discrepancy between the suppliers' and the experts' guidelines for mite treatment, especially considering the safety issues involved. On another front, has anyone heard or know anything about possible legislation to require pasteurization of honey, presumably to ensure its safety? Or did I just catch another rumor? Mike Swintosky Dellroy, Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:23:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Preparing Show Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All As I am presently studying for one of the Examinations, I thought I would key in for the benefit of the correspondent and as revision for myself, a summary of the details I have on the subject from the Study Text. 1. Set aside blemish free jars and lids of identical manufacture for use for show items with each delivery of jars. 2. Always prepare 3 items if the class asks for 2. Enter the best 2 matching exhibits. 3. The honey must be free from any foreign bodies; check the bottom of the honey jar, any dust particles are likely to fall to the bottom of a jar of honey. 4. 'Run' or clear honey must be free from any sign of granulation. The honey may need to be gently heated in a water bath at about 62 Celsius just before the show. 5. Soft set or 'creamed' honey exhibits shpuld not be full of air bubbles. When mixing the honey with the creamer, which resembles a long handled mixer, it should be kept below the surface of the honey. 6. Once the honey has been bottled keep the lids tightly sealed in order to preserve the volatile oils which give the honey its distinctive aroma. Prior to the show check the lids for cleanliness. Hope this helps Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:30:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Some people "just want to try it", because it is NEW - no other reason. That >is sick! >Gosh, I wish people would pay attention to the scientists, and READ THE LABEL! Sadly reading the label is not an option _before_ you buy. I just double checked the Mann Lake web page (http://www.mannlakeltd.com) and I could find nothing about the danger of the strip. I also checked the catalogs of several companies who are reselling the product and they also have nothing. In the catalogs it is just listed under "Varroa Mite Control" products in the same area as Apistan. The only note being that it can only be sold in states with EPA approval. It also mentions that it works against the small hive beetle. Since I am in an area that is close to problems with the small hive beetle, the first instinct is to kill two birds with one stone. Get the product that will not only take care of the mites, but protect against the beetle as well. I did some poking around the archives on the chemical in Mite-Check and it is not a nice one. Without access to the information on this list it would have been very hard for me to find this out before getting the strips. I think I am going to post some of this information up on my web site. Thanks all. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Be carefull with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I am not breeding queens at the time then this is OK. I believe I read in an Entomology journal of research performed in the early 90's showing problems with coumophous and queen laying. thop Bradley Blane White wrote: > An article in the American Bee Journal Feb. 1999 reported that > Apistan treatment did have negative effects on drones reared while > treatment was in the hive. > conclusion of the article was to not have the strips in the colony > during drone production. > > blane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:58:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Coumophos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I was wondering when we would see some posts on this product. My method of mite control for the past few years has been Apistan in the fall and mineral oil in the spring and sporadically throughout the season. I don't know how well the mineral oil works, and I don't want to start that debate all over again. I simply use is as an alternative hopefully taking out any mites that may be developing resistance. Maybe it helps maybe not. Based on what I have been hearing in my neck of the woods beekeepers will be using coumophos heavily this year. The prevailing logic is to hit every colony and then start again next year with a clean slate for apistan. Other reasons are "this probably won't be around for long, I better use it now". Based on what I was seeing and what our state chief apiarist reported, resistance to Apistan is not widespread. Yet, in speaking with two commercial beekeepers in the area, they plan on treating with coumophos. They seem to suspect that they have resistant mites. I don't know if they actually checked for resistance. There is also the added expense. They feel if they use Apistan and have resistance then they have to re-treat with coumophos, thus doubling the cost of treatment. They seem to be opting for the shotgun approach. Although I didn't agree with them, I was starting to think maybe what they were saying made sense. But as usual Aaron came in with a nice reality check and I definitely have to agree with him. This product should not be taken lightly. Possibly we will have to use it if resistance shows up, but it should be done on an as needed, rather than a wide spread, basis. Aaron mentioned the "apple/alar scare". That was a well orchestrated campaign that didn't just accidentally happen. The apple industry was targeted because of what it represented; "Mom, America, Apple Pie". It put a number of apple growers out of business permanently. The surgeon general had to appear on television eating an apple in order to convince the public apples were safe. I have people tell me they will not eat honey because of botulism. It doesn't take much to scare them away. Coumophos could become a necessary evil that we will have to accept, but I don't think we are close to that point yet. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:14:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: eparker Subject: Camp fire chats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The on going fireside chat at our house is how to achieve responsible = pesticide use. I agree with Aaron that camphos or any other pesticide = will be mis-used by some. It's human nature to think a little more or a = little longer is better. Technology should be developed to make a dye = that would fade at the same rate a chemical's active ingredient breaks = down, similar to the dye used on chemically treated seeds. This could be = incorporated into sprays & would allow the consumer to see which areas = have been treated & avoid them if they so desire. Would it force farmers to be more responsible if their pesticides where = colored with a non-staining purple dye? Would muncipalities be more = aware of drift & the location of beehives if the Malathon were dyed = blue? Would the consumer be more aware if he passed red cotton fields & = his lawn was magenta for 3 days after the lawn care service treated it? = Would mothers be so quick to let the kiddies go play on it an hour = later? Would beekeepers be as inclined to over use chemicals in the = hives if they opened them & saw pink bee foot prints throughout the = frames? When they did use a chemical would they be more conscientious = about removing the chemical before honey flow? Pesticide mis-use occurs = largely because it's not seen. When most of us were younger lawn chemicals & even the kitchen bug spray = were labeled with a scull & crossbones. Now the kitchen bug spray comes = in a pretty blue can with a picture of a gleaming white kitchen on the = front. A popular bug spray advertises with cute little cartoon bugs. = Training the next generation? I believe that this has all given the = consumer the impression that these chemicals pose no hazard to them or = the world they live in. The attitudes expressed about camphos seem to = confirm this. Surely the technology exists to put a bio-degradeable dye into the = active ingredient in these products to increase awareness of how & where = these chemicals are used. Maybe beekeepers, with their vested interests = in keeping their bees alive, should start investigating this = possibility. Ed Parker Serenity Gardens ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:19:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: RASpiek@AOL.COM Subject: Requeen?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a hive that went queenless for some reason and did not raise a queen. I have lots of bees and honey but no brood larva or eggs. I gave it 2 frames of brood Monday evening. Today I found 1 small queen cell. If I order a new queen, will it kill any hatching queens or do I need to destroy the new cells? Or-- should I let them do their own thing? Richard Ky USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:23:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Subject: Re: Be careful with COUMOPHOS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Hello Aaron and All, I have posted my feelings against "coumopos" back in January when the USDA surfaced with the idea.The reason it came to the market place so fast is simple. A lot of hives were held up in Florida because of the Beetle quarantine at that time. California needed the almonds pollinated and they were short of bees.After a few phone calls to DC , when a week the USDA came up with coumopos after twisting the EPA's arm a little. I would bet money that the EPA would not approve comopos ,to hand out to anyone ,unless someone was sitting on them very hard.Its a German nerve gas derivative and it will cause nerve damage if you get it on your shin. That is a given.Money was the driver. A Two Billion Dollar business, Almonds , did the trick.Safety for us and our bees went out the window. > However, rather than complacently receiving this new product with a > collective sigh of relief, there should be a collective cry, a TUMULTUOUS > DEMAND from the beekeeping industry that better tools, SAFER tools be > brought to market. Why is it that a nasty product like coumophos can be brought > to market so quickly when efforts to approve formic acid have been thwarted at > every turn for well over a decade now? What's wrong with this picture? Most beekeepers look at there bees and want to protect them at all cost. There not interested in going to war with the USDA or the EPA. They have real problems at hand with there bees.I can not see anyway to put a fire under them until some beekeepers start to show some real signs of brain damage do to coumopos. That will be whitewashed for some time before the truth comes out.Then the blame will be put on them. All of you know how that works.I hope you are very careful if you use the product. The bottom line is, we do not need to lose anymore beekeepers.We lost too many when the mites came along. Beekeepers do a service to this earth. They are people that care about nature.They also can be taken down the garden path , just like the rest of the population. Beekeepers in the US need to demand for a Genetic solution to our problems. That's a long term fix , without chemicals.Chemical company's don't like it. They have the arm and money to keep the USDA coming up with more chemical fix's.Thats where we sit at this time. > it that beekeepers are blindly accepting EPA's decision that nerve poison can > be safely impregnated into plastic stips for safe distribution and use, yet we > continue to allow a more benign product to be denied to us. I thought > beekeepers were a more cantankerous group, but perhaps our reputation is over > rated. > Beekeepers are into the flowers and the birds and the bee's. Not into trying to move a mountain. It looks to big. Don't forget that the mountain is made up of small pieces. Each letter, one and one and one,--, will get attention at some point in time.If each one would do that, one letter.A shift would start.Do nothing, then don't complain.Keep smelling the flowers. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya, Wa. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:18:15 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Yann Evenou Subject: Tr: job MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I believe this may be of interest to some people here... Cheers, Yann "Knowledge that isn't shared is like a buried treasure. Even the owner can't use it." Yann Evenou member of : European Arachnological Society Union for French Entomology Saint Clar France -----Message d'origine----- De : Dr. Peter Kevan À : ENTOMO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA Date : vendredi 16 juillet 1999 00:04 Objet : job >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:12:09 -0700 >From: Mark Winston >Reply-To: "Conference for Can. Assn. of Professional Apiculturists" > >To: CAPA-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA >Subject: job > > We have a short-term job opportunity available for an individual with >beekeeping experience. Research experience and/or a university degree would >be desirable but not essential. Employment could begin any time between now >and 1 September, and will end at the end of October. We would be pleased to >provide time off to attend Apimondia in September. Responsibilities will >include summer management/honey extraction, feeding, application of fall >disease/parasite treatments, preparation of bees for winter, and assisting >in a number of research projects. Pay will be in the range of $1300-1500 >per month, depending on experience. > I would appreciate your distributing this message as widely as possible, >and bringing it to the attention of any likely candidates. Applicants >should send a resume and names/addresses of 3 references by mail, FAX. or >e-mail (addresses below), and are welcome to phone me for more information. > >Mark Winston > > >Mark L. Winston >Department of Biological Sciences >Simon Fraser University >Burnaby, B.C. V5A 1S6 Canada >phone: 604-291-4459 >FAX: 604-291-3496 >winston@sfu.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:11:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Coumophos, Apistan, and the Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, I have been watching the debate on coumophos carefully on here lately. It appears that it will soon be approved for use here in the state of Missouri. Like everywhere, a lot of beekeepers are ready to order as soon as it is approved, and "hit them hard". One thing that we have discussed in our bee meetings, but I haven't seen here, is rotation of the two chemicals on a yearly basis. Use Apistan for a year or two, and then a year of Coumophos, then switch back to Apistan, etc. By using a system like this, you would be reducing or eliminating resistant varroa mites. What would be better is the addition of another product or method to further reduce the number of varroa mites in a hive. Basically a "keep them guessing" type of approach. In addition to chemical control, many beekeepers are using an 8 mesh screen above the bottom board to reduce the number of mites. In fact, our state entomologist reported to the club that there was a 40-50 percent reduction in mites using just the screen, with no chemicals at all. Research this year will involve the screen and a drone frame to see what the reduction will be. He has guessed that they may achieve an even more significant reduction in mite numbers, maybe one the bees can tolerate. The important thing is that it uses no chemicals at all. As for the hive beetle, since there is the pupae stage in the ground, could they be best approached outside the hive? A ground drench would be safer for the bees with no contamination inside the hive. The key to any pest control is to break the life cycle of the organism. Here though, instead of the chemical in the hive, the chemical is added to our environment. It is a trade off that must may have to be made to keep honey the natural product that it is. Since the pupae inhabit such a small area outside the hive, some form of mechanical prevention may even work. Just some more food for thought. Scott Moser " I believe that beekeeping mirrors life. One must endure a few stings to reach the final sweet reward." S. Moser ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:47:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Requeen?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Be careful this time of year, depending on local conditions it may appear as if the hive is queenless when, in fact, it is not. Now that I have confused you, If there is no nectar comining in, a queen may discontinue laying during the summer dearth. Other clues must be used to determine queenlessness on occasion. Try to locate the queen. If you cannot then feed 1/1 syrup for a few days and see if there are new eggs. Try to locate the queen again. Brood are expensive to raise and if there is sufficient field force there may be a cessation of rearing in order to more efficiently use natural resources. Think like a bee. No nectar, no need to create more drain on food. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA I had trouble with this the first couple of years. RASpiek@AOL.COM wrote: > > I have a hive that went queenless for some reason and did not raise a queen. > I have lots of bees and honey but no brood larva or eggs. > Richard > Ky USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:38:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Apistan and/or Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > I totally agree with Aaron. Coumaphos should never be used in place of > Apistan. > Don't ASSUME your bees are resistant to Apistan (they probably are not). Use > Apistan and than TEST YOUR BEES FOR VARROA immediately after treating. > > > The only bees that have been found resistant to Apistan are from colonies > where the Apistan use was abused (too many strips in the hive or strips left > in the hive for several months - Remember Miticur - same thing - ABUSE. OK, George. 1) I totally agree also, that coumaphos should never be used in place of Apistan. BUT it is another weapon in the arsenal against the varroa mite. And say what we will, other treatments have not yet been validated or, if so, have not yet been legalized in the USA. 2) I also agree that one cannot assume mites in one's bee colonies are resistant to Apistan. But if six weeks after the Apistan strips are pulled in the spring one sees hundreds of bees crawling around with severely deformed wings, and then makes a check of drone pupae and finds that three fourths have varroa upon them....I wonder what else could account for this except resistance to Apistan. 3) This kind of global statement is going to be hard to prove or justify. In the hives referred to in the paragraph above, Apistan was applied for 45 days last fall, then again for 45 days this spring. Two strips per fully occupied hive body were placed at least two frames apart within the cluster. I don't believe that I abused Apistan, yet mites built up rapidly in this treated colony. I made a check of drone pupae in other colonies randomly in the same yard and found no varroa. All the colonies received the same Apistan treatment detailed above. It just seems logical to me that resistance to Apistan developed independently in this one colony - so why not take off all the honey supers and treat with the only other legal alternative? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:12:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907081318.JAA21056@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > ... The hive goes into emergency mode and 3-4 dayslater you'll > > find, but few take the time to look, sealed queen cells. > > I have not seen sealed queen cells 3 or 4 days after sudden loss of a > queen. I have never knowingly checked a hive at that time > after it became queenless. Well, I have, and do -- many thousands of hives over the years. One of the techniques we use over and over is splitting a hive and then checking four days later for eggs. Sometimes it involves using an excluder, sometimes it involves making side-by-side splits. Three days later is too soon for an easy call, especially if it is overcast. If we can't see any eggs, we look for queen cells for a clue, and it is amazing how often a queen cell is not apparent at the four day mark. Maybe some queen rearing has started, but the cell is not yet in evidence. In our district -- contrary to what the first writer asserts -- we almost never find sealed cells at four days. When we do, I tend to think they may have been underway when we did the split, since we try to split about the time the bees are thinking they would like to divide, and some hives are working at supercedure at any given time. It only stands to reason that there might be times when our splitting coincides with the bees spontaneous cell raising activities. > >> It takes 3 days to hatching, so those sealed at 3 days after > >> emergency only get a 6 day feeding, instead of 9 which is normal... What can I say? > My understanding has always been that the hive can turn any > young worker larvae, ( less than three days old), into a queen. > If the bees start to work on a larvae of that age, a sealed > queen cell at 3-4 days after becoming queenless is quite possible... True. I have been prompted to read fairly extensively as a result of these discussions, hoping to get to the truth of the matter without resorting to actual experimentation. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the experts themselves are divided on the matter, since they contradict each other -- much as we do. This may be due to the fact that bees and bee behaviour can vary quite a bit for reasons we do not know, and the timing and location of observations can have quite an impact on the results. > I think the question (that David has addressed) is how > important are those first three days as a larvae in > queen development (assuming that 3 day old larvae may > be raised into a queen). David, it appears, feels > that this is a critical time for the development of a > commercially good queen. He could very well be correct. > Even if this early larval stage is critical to > good queen development, there will be times that larvae will > receive better care due to larger numbers of nurse bees, > good or bad weather, honey flow etc. and these may > already have had everything they need to become a very > good queen. I repeat this because it is most astute and pivotal to the question. Assuming the bees do start right away making a new queen (and I am here to tell you they often appear to take several days to start -- in my observations, at least), what is to say that they do not at all times have some worker larvae that are fed better than others for just such an eventuality and it is not those that are chosen? We simply do not know. I think what we really need is results from research where known emergency queens raised under good conditions are dissected and their degree of development and caste is measured. I suspect that such research exists and I had thought that by now, Larry or some other person who has worked with these things intimately might have jumped in and settled the matter once and for all. I hope to get around to doing a search through the IBRA one of these days if no one can cite such studies. So far, my take on the whole matter is that emergency queens work well for some people in some locations for some purposes and may not measure up in other places and circumstances. Interestingly enough, that is pretty much what we can say about breeder raised queens. (We have recent experience here in Alberta where my friends report having to replace 1/3 or more of their store-boughten queens. Knowing beekeepers, I doubt that they have shared with me the full extent of their pain, and I suspect the number to be greater in some cases). I am still very open to good information on this, because I have tens of thousands of dollars riding on having a correct answer, as do my friends. We're not so proud we won't be swayed by real evidence. I appreciate the anecdotes and guesses, but if you folks out there on the BEE-L have any *real* info, please don't hold back. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:00:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Coumophos, Apistan, and the Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has any research been performed using milky spore to treat the ground for the hive beetle larva? Here in eastern Virginia we use this as a natural control for the Japanese beetle (or June Bug). 1 treatment to the ground at a cost of about $30/ acre and the spore spreads as it feeds on larva. Lasts about 10 years. It's a natural product and only works on ground dwelling larva. No effect on any animals at all. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Scott Moser wrote: > As for the hive beetle, since there is the pupae stage in the ground, > could they be best approached outside the hive? A ground drench would be > safer for the bees with no contamination inside the hive. The key to any > pest control is to break the life cycle of the organism. Here though, > instead of the chemical in the hive, the chemical is added to our > environment. . > > Scott Moser > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:08:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: RASpiek@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Requeen?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, I did check for a queen but I am not the best at finding queens. Since I gave them brood and eggs and they started a queen cell, would not this indicate that there is no queen? If this is true, should I leave it alone or buy a mated queen and destroy the cell? no nectar now. I put on apistan and am feeding to try to build for the goldenrod and Aster flow. Richard KY, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:29:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott said "In addition to chemical control, many beekeepers are using an 8 mesh screen above the bottom board to reduce the number of mites. In fact, our state entomologist reported to the club that there was a 40-50 percent reduction in mites using just the screen, with no chemicals at all." In the June, 1999 issue of American Bee Journal, Pettis and Shimanuki presented a paper that reported an early season 25% reduction in varroa (compared to control hives) by using solely an open-mesh screen. However, by late summer there were no differences in varroa populations in hives with and without a screen. This is very good news as the implication is that it might be able to avoid spring use of Apistan and treat just once a year, in early fall. The theory of the open-mesh screen is that there is a normal and on-going mite fall. This has been documented for many years by use of sticky boards, without mite treatment to cause their fall. Presumably the mites just lose their grip or are picked up and dropped by the bees. My understanding is that after falling, mites have been observed to crawl back on passing bees and thus get back up into the brood nest. In constructing a screen, it is very important to use a mesh size that mites can get through but bees cannot. Eight mesh to the inch (1/8") or 3/5mm mesh will do the job. In the US an inexpensive mesh that is constructed to fit on top of a normal bottom board is being sold by Betterbee (800-632-3379) and Brushy Mountain (800-233-7929). I understand that this somehow redirects the bees into the hive, without them having access to the bottom board. However, unless the beekeeper has sticky paper (sprayed with food oil (Pam) or something similar) to trap the mites, they are likely to find a way to catch a ride on incoming bees. Other beekeepers have attached the screen to the bottom of the hive, eliminated the bottom board, and reported good success (private communication). Obviously, in this case an upper entrance has been provided for the bees. In one case this was as simple as setting the top of two hive bodies used for the brood nest back about one inch (13mm). This beekeeper leaves the setup this way (no bottom board, an eight mesh screen stapled to the bottom of the hive, and the top hive body set back from the bottom by an inch) all winter. I personally think that some type of a screen to let mites fall and treating just once a year is the way to go. However, I think those that try this and do not have a way to prevent the mites from crawling to where they can catch a bee will be disappointed with the results. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:50:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anglin Subject: Re: Camp fire chats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vast snippage> > Surely the technology exists to put a bio-degradeable dye into the = > active ingredient in these products to increase awareness of how & where = > these chemicals are used. > Ed Parker > Serenity Gardens > Yes, some dyes will fade with time, but the most common mechanism for this fading is sunlight- This works great for outdoor application, but the inside of a hive is so dark that the dye would be well protected. There are dyes that are sensitive to chemicals in the air, etc., but one has to be aware that dyes are foreign chemicals too, and many of them may have toxic effects at some concentration. As they break down, other chemicals are created in the break down. (The peroxide action in honey might be able to trigger this break down- but I don't know how this would affect the honey.) A dye would have to be found that was non-toxic, visible, broke down at the same rate as the pesticide, and didn't leave any objectionable residues in the hive- That is one heck of a tall order! I'm not saying it cannot be done- just that it would be a challenge, and therefore expensive. I am also concerned about adding still another foreign substance to the hive. My experience with dyes comes from fabric and textile testing. Someone familiar with food colorings would know far more than I on this subject. Ellen Anglin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:28:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907161155.HAA07460@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I think the question (that David has addressed) is how > > important are those first three days as a larvae in > > queen development (assuming that 3 day old larvae may > > be raised into a queen). David, it appears, feels > > that this is a critical time for the development of a > > commercially good queen. He could very well be correct. > > Even if this early larval stage is critical to > > good queen development, there will be times that larvae will > > receive better care due to larger numbers of nurse bees, > > good or bad weather, honey flow etc. and these may > > already have had everything they need to become a very > > good queen. More on this: Steve Tabor explained in his book that he had believed that the younger a larva is grafted, the better the resulting queen. Of course, he took this to the extreme and developed a method of grafting eggs into cups. The results were disappointing. What he got from grafting eggs varied a lot -- from good queens to big worker bees -- so that wasn't apparently the answer either. And I personally think that this says a lot about the belief that younger larvae are necessarily better across the board. My personal belief is that there is a range of age and condition which will give roughly equivalent results. I also believe that bees know what they are doing most of the time. Given good conditions, I think they do okay. We must remember that a lot of the hype about grafting ideal larvae, etc. is from people who are attempting to raise the *perfect* queen, not just an acceptable queen, and that the tiny differences that matter to them may well not be apparent to those of us who are using queens in real life situations where the 'ideal' queen would never be able to demonstrate that extra bit of perfection and power. It's like idealizing an Indy 500 car for driving on the street. All that power and extra expense is unnecessary. I'm glad that the breeders are trying to get that ultimate queen because it improves the quality of the commercial output, and we all know that even breeders fall short sometimes. I had said that I wouldn't reveal what every expert said about emergency queens in the books I read, and I won't right now, anyhow, but I find it appropriate here to say that Steve Tabor said that "If you kill the queen in a colony, the bees start queen cells with larvae that are about 48 hours old... However better queens are reared from larvae 12 to 24 hours old". Also of interest -- in regards grafting -- "If in doubt about the size of larve, compare it (sic) to an egg. If it's bigger than an egg, it's more than 24 hours old". Other experts either say nothing at all disparaging about emergency queens, or mention them favourably. The major drawback seems to be lack of the breeding control that is possible with grafting. (That's why we use a combination of emergency queens and grafting in our operation -- along with some purchased queens). A number of people have written me asking me to reveal which queen rearing books I bought and which ones I recommend. I considered trying to answer that question, but have decided that pretty well every book I have was worth the purchase price at least several times over and that ones that best answered my particular questions best won't necessarily be the one for someone else. I have to say I did not return even one of the 10 or so books that Eileen McCutcheon sent me recently. I would recommend that every beekeeper consider how much depends on the queen and how much money he/she spends on queens and then call Larry or Doug* Eileen or his favourite book seller and load up. If the several hundred dollars (max) for the whole lot is too much, then maybe the club should break down and create a library (What club, you ask? I think every beekeeper should belong to several bee clubs or organisations. If you can't find one, start one). In the case that a club isn't available to share the cost, then I recommend asking a knowledgeable book seller like Larry (USA)or Doug & Eileeen (Canada) which one(s) would suit you best and then to buy one at a time. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:25:24 +0100 Reply-To: joe@golberdon.prestel.co.uk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907161155.HAA07457@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, Allen wrote: > We simply do not know. I think what we really need is results from > research where known emergency queens raised under good conditions are > dissected and their degree of development and caste is measured. I > suspect that such research exists and I had thought that by now, Larry or > some other person who has worked with these things intimately might have > jumped in and settled the matter once and for all. I hope to get around > to doing a search through the IBRA one of these days if no one can cite > such studies. Quoted in 'The Biology of the Honey Bee' by Mark L. Winston, (Source: Woyke, 1971, as interpreted by Michener, 1974.) ---------------- Mean characteristics of honey bee queens produced by transferring eggs or larvae from worker cells to queen cells at various stages. Stage Weight mg No. Ovarioles Spm Dia mm Spm Vol mm3 Egg 209 317 1.31 1.18 1 Day 189 308 1.28 1.09 2 Days 172 292 1.21 0.94 3 Days 147 272 1.16 0.82 4 Days 119 224 1.03 0.59 ------------------------------- 'The Biology of the Honey Bee' is a fine book. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:44:57 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Farrington/Bequia Canvas Subject: brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody; My first few weeks as a member of the list have been very informative = and very interesting - thank you all. I live in the West Indies and am just getting started with bees. My bees have filled a deep brood box; I am putting a second brood box on = top of the first to increase the size of the hives. Local beekeepers, all five of them, asked my why I was adding a second = brood box and not supers to collect honey. =20 My answer was the tried and true, "because everybody has a least two = brood boxes." So my question is, why does everybody, except these five local = beekeepers, have two brood boxes before supering ? Is it to help the = bee colony through the winter? More bees, more honey? In fact does = everybody have two brood boxes before supering? Your comments would be much appreciated. Bob Farrington Bequia, West Indies beqcan@caribsurf.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:34:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Up north folks use 2 brood boxes because there is no nectar and not much bee flight below 50 degrees F and the bees need the extra honey to get through the winter. We have such nice things as ice and snow to contend with as well. Down south and in the islands the bees can gather nectar throughout the winter and survive with less than 2 deeps. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:34:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: On vacation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'll be away through August 2 attending bee school in Ireland. Aaron Morris - thinking green bees! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:18:18 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ed A third method is to insert a super frame (i.e. a frame shorter than your brood frame) fitted with normal worker foundation in the brood nest. Your bees will build normal cells within the frame and drone cells below the bottom bar to the remaining depth. When capped, and with the mites safely sealed in, you can cut off the drone cells and replace the frame for another cycle. This works well for the single brood chamber setup usual in the UK. I'm not sure about double brood chambers, but it should be ok. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:58:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Re: Drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings again, John Burgess had a good idea to with the use of a drone frame. Allowing the bees to construct drone comb below a starter strip is a good method for collecting drone larvae. Instead of cutting out the cells each time, freeze for a few hours, replace in the hives, and let the bees clean out the frame. Then, the process starts over. As for a double body, I don't know why you could not use two frames, one per body. Any thoughts on that out there? I am not a fan of using chemicals in my hives, unless it is just absolutely needed. Thanks all. Scott Moser " I believe that beekeeping mirrors life. One must endure a few stings to reach the final sweet reward." S. Moser ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:41:14 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Farrington/Bequia Canvas Subject: Re: brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks for your swift reponse to my query. Another part of the beekeeping puzzle has fallen into place. The beekeepers here have only one deep brood but didn't really know why. My question to them got them wondering if perhaps there was a better way to handle their bees. Your sensible reply cleared the air. All the information I have seen refers to, or shows two deep brood boxes; obviously, the information relates to beekeeping in cooler climates. The patience and understanding of the experienced list members dealing with rookies helps we rookies to enjoy our bees even more. I thank you and hope that eventually I will be able to pass on your wisdom to other newbeekeepers in time. Bob Bequia, West Indies beqcan@caribsurf.com -----Original Message----- From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: brood boxes >Up north folks use 2 brood boxes because there is no nectar and not much bee >flight below 50 degrees F and the bees need the extra honey to get through >the winter. We have such nice things as ice and snow to contend with as well. >Down south and in the islands the bees can gather nectar throughout the >winter and survive with less than 2 deeps. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:03:08 -0400 Reply-To: slnewc@alltel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Newcomb Subject: BEAR LABELS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for an alternate source for flat panel bear labels, 12 and 16 oz. Betterbee's imprinter is broken, and I don't want to handstamp 1,000 labels. I've already checked Dadant, Kelly, Rossman's web site, Brushy Mountain. Any help would be appreciated. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:38:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: brood boxes In-Reply-To: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM's message of Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:34:30 EDT Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I do not know where you are from but I think that you got the north part right but not the south. We get bees from the north every year and I think that you'all up north have more bees to feed in the winter than we do. Our bees keep right on flying and our numbers get far lower than the bees from the north. With fewer bees they eat less. We have very little honey flow in North Florida and south GA. in the winter. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:38:22 -0400 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Showing Honey. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Our Bee Club has a booth at a big local fair and one of the rules, which I have not seen mentionned by others, is that no daylight be showing between the top of the honey level in the jar and the bottom of the lid. I.e., you should not be able to see the top of the honey with the jar sitting level. Having same gets that jar disqualified. I would suggest that inquiries be made at each fair to see if they have a published pamphlet on the subject. Personally I would think that they would. Worth checking imho. Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: brood boxes Bob Farrington asks: "So my question is, why does everybody, except these five local = beekeepers, have two brood boxes before supering ? Is it to help the = bee colony through the winter? More bees, more honey? In fact does = everybody have two brood boxes before supering? " Here are a couple of more thoughts on the subject of one versus two brood boxes: First, all of my hives this year have only one deep brood box. All of the hives of my friend, president of our bee society have 2 brood boxes. He gets more honey than I do. I asked a couple of the more experienced beekeepers around here and one of them said, as you suggest, that you have to feed them less during the winter. The other said that if you have two boxes, you'll have a higher population of bees in the Spring and they will make more honey. I also recall some people saying that single brood boxes often work better for comb honey production while extracted honey production is best with two brood boxes. Another thought is that having two deep brood chambers makes it easier to make splits and add a new queen to the queenless half. It's harder to make splits if you only have single deeps. There are lots of things to think about and lots of decisions to make. Experience is also a wonderful teacher, and as we have been reminded, books are great as well as getting opinions from the voices of experience. My wishes for enjoyable and productive beekeeping to all. It's been a great year for honey here in central Texas. This is the best year for regular rains and good bee forage here in my area that I've ever seen since moving here 17 years ago. Layne Westover College Station, Brazos County, Texas, U.S.A. (the weather's been cooler than normal too. It's still in the low 90's F and hasn't broken 100 F yet this year) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907161700.NAA12689@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jul 99, at 17:25, Joe Hemmens wrote: > Mean characteristics of honey bee queens produced by transferring > eggs or larvae from worker cells to queen cells at various stages. > > Stage Weight mg No. Ovarioles Spm Dia mm Spm Vol mm3 > > Egg 209 317 1.31 1.18 > > 1 Day 189 308 1.28 1.09 > > 2 Days 172 292 1.21 0.94 > > 3 Days 147 272 1.16 0.82 > > 4 Days 119 224 1.03 0.59 I think this illustrates the point I've been trying to make for some time. Taking larvae too old will mean a loss of size (weaker) a loss of Ovarioles (less eggs) and a general reduction in queen performance, apart from regressive behaviour. It matters not if you've got 3, 300, 3000 hives poor performance should not be tolerated. Only a poor business man will allow second best stock to persist, especially if he knows there is an alternative. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:19:13 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: Drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott Moser wrote: > Instead of cutting out the cells each > time, freeze for a few hours, replace in the hives, and let the bees clean > out the frame. Then, the process starts over. less work for the bees is, uncap the cells with a uncapping tool and thrust the larva/pupa out. In the mean time, bees can go for nectar...;-) (hope so) from the drone methode on: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html ---------------------------------- - How do you remove the larva and pupa from the capped frames? A good method is this: uncap the cells with a serrated knife or your normally used honey uncapping tool, thrust the larva out. (it is good to mix the drone larva with the chicken feed, they love it!!)( but our teacher talks about eating them!! Ask him for a recipe, he will be angry with me) Clean the cells with water, dry it in the air, use it again. Remains of pupae should be washed out of the comb with a jet of water and the drone combs should be stored dry until reuse, to prevent growth of fungi. - I eat them to now. They are delicious!!!! ---------------------------------- greeting, jan -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:04:11 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: brood boxes In-Reply-To: <199907161933.PAA17916@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jul 99, at 14:34, BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: > Up north folks use 2 brood boxes because there is no nectar and not much > bee flight below 50 degrees F and the bees need the extra honey to get Interesting, we need 3 deeps to satisfactorily winter big hives. Horses for courses, eh? ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:36:03 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: brood boxes Comments: To: beqcan@CARIBSURF.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have a count the occupation of one cel in one brood cyclus egg, larve, pupa, cell cleaning. (3+6+12+????= 25??) So count 1500 eggs in one day Count the number of cell one one frame (circle!!!) (if you have a frame with brood from left to right and from top to bottom, something is wrong) and take some place for nectar first storagge Take more place if there is a big flow. and then, calculate 2000 eggs/day (buckfast????) so it depends totaly on: - kinds of the queen (big or small colony)(rase of bees) - nectar flow - size and number of frames Farrington/Bequia Canvas wrote: > So my question is, why does everybody, except these five local = > beekeepers, have two brood boxes before supering ? greeting jan -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:51:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907170850.EAA04947@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think this illustrates the point I've been trying to make for some > time. Taking larvae too old will mean a loss of size (weaker) a loss > of Ovarioles (less eggs) and a general reduction in queen > performance I don't think that this point has ever been in dispute. We have all been familiar with this from the time we first read about queen rearing. What *is* in dispute is whether, in fact, emergency queens are necessarily generated from old larvae, and what quality can be expected in emergency queens raised under good conditions. We *know* that humans can -- and do graft older larvae -- and I am sure that this happens even in commercial queen breeding when inexperienced help are being trained. At least it has in our operation when we were teaching new folks to graft. What we need to establish beyond a doubt is 1.) whether the bees in fact do choose older larvae when they have a choice and 2.) whether the queens that result are significantly inferior to a queen purchased thru the mail. > apart from regressive behaviour. Hmmm. here we go again? > It matters not if you've got 3, 300, 3000 hives poor > performance should not be tolerated. Only a poor business man will allow second > best stock to persist, especially if he knows there is an > alternative. We are agreed on that -- all other factors being equal. My point is that I suspect that the commercially raised and shipped queens are often the inferior and poor-performing item. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:56:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: eparker Subject: Color My World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anglin wrote, A dye would have to be found that was non-toxic, visible, broke down at >the same rate as the pesticide, and didn't leave any objectionable residues >in the hive- That is one heck of a tall order! Dear Anglin & All, Yes, it could be a tall order in certian applications. But remember the same elements that break down dyes, break down pesticides! Pesticides also break down by light, oxidation, etc. so the conditions of the hive would have the same effect on both. Dyes that breakdown from the same elements, at similar rates to the pesticide should be possible. I don't think the technology is the problem. The real question is; "How important is it to know where and when these pesticides have been applied!" Do you and I have the right to know if the mosquito truck sprayed our hive, car or house? Do we have the right to know if a farmer sprayed his crop the day before harvest? When you open your hives would you like to see where the Check-Mate or Apstan has gone? If it's still there? If it's in the brood chamber or made its way to the honey supers? As for residues left behind from the dyes: It's hard to find a package in the grocery store without a dye in it. Even "Natural" products use "Natural" dyes. I am far more concerned with the pesticide residues than a residue from a "tested & approved" dye. There are two things about pesticides to ALWAYS remember. The first is; Their only reason for being is to kill! They were designed specifically to kill living things. People spend billions of dollars each year to find ones that kill better! The second was stated during the documentery show "Nature" on PBS. In a show about insects they stated; "Some of the most toxic substances known to man are insecticides". Thats a very real and powerful statement. Think of all the toxic things you can, then put insecticides at the top of the list. Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally against pesticides. They have a time and a place. But, we should have the right to SEE that time and place! Ed Parker Serenity Gardens ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: mcmanus Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: mcmanus Subject: Re: BEAR LABELS Comments: To: slnewc@ALLTEL.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve Have you tried Microsoft label program software? We make all our labels this way and they look good. Joe McManus Loving You Honey Farms Bremerton, WA. mcmanus@budsters.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:14:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Color My World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As in all things manufactured, cost is key. If you add a dye to a pesticide, no matter how benign, the EPA would put you through such a wringer to prove it is non-toxic, probably a million or so at a minimum, that the return is not worth the investment. Just the chemical aspects of it are interesting. You would have to show what is the dyes interaction with honey, the breakdown products and what they do to wax, honey and bees. All the things you have to do with the pesticide by itself. And most dyes used in food do not break down because the manufacturer wants them to stay colorful. That is the intent of adding the dye. And what about the breakdown time? Enough to be all gone before the bee picks some up and it becomes stable in the honey. And you end up with purple honey. Or pink bees. Would be unusual. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:55:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Color My World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/17/99 9:44:33 AM EST, eparker@ATLANTIC.NET writes: > Anglin wrote, > > A dye would have to be found that was non-toxic, visible, broke down at > >the same rate as the pesticide, and didn't leave any objectionable residues > >in the hive- That is one heck of a tall order! > I was thinking more on the lines of adding something that really stinks like bee go to pestcides one would know when and where they were used and the smell would likely make indiscriminate use much less. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Finding Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, Your right Jan, hadn't really thought of the load on the bees. But isn't it the hive bees that do the cleaning, not the foragers? My whole point was that it was a lot of work for the bees to excrete new wax each time the drone cells were cut out. Okay, have a problem here. I have 2 Starline hives that appear to be queenless. Nectar flow in Eastern Missouri has slowed, but Starlines in the past have not shut down on me before. Both hives have been trying to swarm since the first of July, and I think they did, and failed to raise a queen. Here are the facts: 1. No eggs, larvae, and VERY little capped brood. (Maybe 1-2 frames per hive) 2. Both hives aggressive, noisy, little foraging activity evident, many bees hanging out, when other nearby hives are foraging. 3. I placed a frame of eggs and larvae in one yesterday to see if they would draw out replacement queens. No evidence of that yet. The other received a frame 3 days ago, and 2 cells were evident on that frame, very low down like swarm cells. 4. No eggs present in any queen cups, though both had wanted to swarm a couple weeks ago. 5. Two, visual frame by frame examinations yielded no queen. 6. Today, I strained all bees through a queen excluder, and no evidence of the queen. I was watching carefully as I shook off each frame. Unless she crawled out of the box and down the side, and I didn't notice, I didn't see her. Is it realistic to assume that both hives are indeed queenless? I would hate to sacrifice a new queen, only to find out the queen is still there. Anything else I can try short of waiting? I have begun to feed the hives, in an effort to better accept a new queen, and to maybe stimulate a queen that may be present. Thanks folks! Scott Moser ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:14:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Be careful with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sure George Imirie meant to write when your MITES are resistant to Apistan. He wrote BEES. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:26:58 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Farrington/Bequia Canvas Comments: To: Bee-L submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody; Thank you all for your input re: brood boxes. =20 It has been very interesting reading the comments and the different = ideas and reasons for doing what you do. As David Eyre says, Horses for Courses. I have another question, to satisy my insatiable curiosity. I posed = several questions to the archives but could not phrase the question to = elicit an answer... With whom does the queen mate? OK, I know she mates with a drone, but = is it a drone from her own hive? When she takes her mating flight does she travel with her own drones or = does she troll for a drone from another hive? The literature I have found says simply, "she mates with a drone..." Thanks for your consideration. Bob Farrington Bequia, West Indies beqcan@caribsurf.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:43:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Becky or Al S Boehm Subject: 2deep or not 2 deep Hello all This year I tryed an experiment on the theory of 2 deep brood chambers vs one deep a nd one shallow ( most common in this area). I have already robbed honey from all the colonies with 2 deeps and tomarrow will rob them again. tomarrow I will also rob the colonies with 1 deep and 1 shallow. now for the extra surprise-- all the 2 deeps have 5 to 7 supers on and the 1 deep and 1 shallow have only 2 supers on except one which has 3 supers. This fall the experiment will cease as I will go back to all 2 deeps in the spring. By the way, both ways seem to overwinter here the same, but the 2 deeps build up much faster. Numbers for those needing to know , 7 colonies with doubles and 7 colonies with 1 deep. Al Boehm Columbus N C ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:14:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen Mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/17/99 7:57:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, beqcan@CARIBSURF.COM writes: > I have another question, to satisy my insatiable curiosity. I posed = > several questions to the archives but could not phrase the question to = > elicit an answer... > With whom does the queen mate? OK, I know she mates with a drone, but = > is it a drone from her own hive? This is not desirable, as it would be her brother. The viability of the brood would be very poor. Either the bees take out the larvae (of incest), or they die and are then removed. I think this is a danger, where few hives are kept in a spot, and no wild bees are left. > When she takes her mating flight does she travel with her own drones or = > does she troll for a drone from another hive? She goes to a drone congregation area. I don't think anyone knows how these are chosen, and how the queen (or drones for that matter) know how to get there. > The literature I have found says simply, "she mates with a drone..." My understanding is that she needs to mate 12-15 times to have a long life. If she does not have enough sperm cells, she will peter out (usually becoming a drone layer) early. Oftentimes queens that are poorly mated do not get through the season. Sometimes they are superseded; other times, the beekeeper has to intervene. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:24:39 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Drone trapping In-Reply-To: <199907162159.RAA22914@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 15 Jul 99, at 22:18, John Burgess wrote: > A third method is to insert a super frame (i.e. a frame > shorter than your brood frame) fitted with normal worker foundation in the > brood nest. Your bees will build normal cells within the frame and drone > cells below the bottom bar to the remaining depth. When capped, and with > the mites safely sealed in, you can cut off the drone cells and replace > the frame for another cycle. > This works well for the single brood chamber setup usual in the UK. I'm > not sure about double brood chambers, but it should be ok. I have a feeling that this method in a double brood could cause problems. If the frame is in the top box of a double, the upper area would be filled with honey, then the lower portion would be drawn down to either worker or drone [see other posting] and more than likely fixed to the top bar of the lower box. Dreadfull mess on trying to get it out! If the frame is in the lower box, then the upper area would be used for worker brood, and the lower area [drone comb] is getting close to the dead area where brood is unlikely. Don't forget we're talking high summer, and that area is a cluster area for field bees. I still feel the best way is a full frame of drone comb in the top box!! ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:24:40 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Drone trapping In-Reply-To: <199907170207.WAA28048@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jul 99, at 20:58, Scott Moser wrote: > John Burgess had a good idea to with the use of a drone frame. > Allowing the bees to construct drone comb below a starter strip is a good > method for collecting drone larvae. I'm all for drone trapping which is why we stock drone foundation. Just one small fly in the ointment. You'll have a job persuading a young hive with a young queen to make an excess of drone cells, their natural way is first make worker, then later break them down into drone. We make a number of drone mothers in a season, hives who's job it is to make nothing but drones. The only good way that works consistently, a sheet of drone foundation in an older hive, transferred into a younger hive when it's fully drawn. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset Magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:18:58 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Apistan and/or Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Fischer wrote: < It just seems logical to me that resistance to Apistan developed > independently in this one colony To me it seems illogical that resistance to Apistan would have developed in only one colony, if you treated all your colonies in the same way. Isn't it more likely that the colony in question has robbed out a heavily infested feral colony which was on the point of collapse? You could confirm by re-treating with Apistan and then checking for the presence or absence of mites, rather than plunging straight into coumaphos. Using a insert on the floor of the hive and examining daily for dead mites would give a quick indication of whether or not significant resistance has developed. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:48:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lowell & Diane Hutchison Subject: refractometer Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there any other way to measure the moisture content of honey other = than buying one of these expensive gizmos? I don't want to risk = fermentation, but hate to spent the money unless it's absolutely = necessary. Comments appreciated. Lowell Hutchison hutchiso@ccp.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:31:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Apistan and/or Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted: You think pretty well, too bad others don't. However, what is the SHELF LIFE of your APISTAN as you keep it? To make a real scientific evaluation, you would have to use a separate previously unopened box of Apistan for each treatment to really determine if your bees had developed a resistance to Apistan. Surely, you remember that wonderful miticide, Miticur, which would kill BOTH tracheal and Varroa mites. Those penny-pinching commercial operators in Florida discovered that a veterinarian pesticide was 30% stronger and MUCH cheaper, so they substituted that for Miticur and KILLED THEIR BEES. Then, they SUED Hoechst-Rouse company for the value of their bees, so H.R. curtailed Miticur completely stating that there was not enough profit in it for them to put up with all that crap done by unskilled, abusing beekeepers. We have the same problem with Apistan today including the migratory folks. They can't set colonies aside for 42 days between migratory stops, so they are keeping strips in for long periods of time in winter quarters, or using strips 5-6 days while in transit between stops and repeat, and repeat, and repeat. The mites become RESISTANT to Apistan because of NOT FOLLOWING THE LABEL. Apistan is a fine miticide if PROPERLY USED; but it just takes 1-2 bad apples to spoil a whole barrel, and you just can't convince some of these know-it-all beeHAVERS to follow instructions developed by competent scientists. Good to hear from you Ted By the way, the MIDNITEBEE has had some severe medical problems and another URL offered to publish my PINK PAGES and I said OK. Now, the MIDNITEBEE has dropped my stuff. The new URL is: http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html George ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 07:55:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: 2deep or not 2 deep In-Reply-To: Becky or Al S Boehm 's message of Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:43:50 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Al's experiment; Glad to see you try something different. I do have a problem with the small numbers you used to make up your mind on the subject. I think for a good test it`would take at least 100's in order to make up your mind instead of seven. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:43:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Drone Trapping, brood boxes, apistan resistance, showing honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an alternative to using a shallow frame for bees to draw drone comb beneath try using a shallow eke below the brood box. The advantages are that you do not sacrifice valuable worker brood space; that bees generally tend not to turn worker comb into drone if there is space to build drone elsewhere; that you get lots of lovely wax for the melter. My advice to Bob is to go with the bees. If they need 2 brood boxes let them have 2. If the bees in your neighbourhood are content with one that makes management so much easier. Here in the UK I normally aim to use 1 but if using a 2 queen system or making an artificial swarm I sometimes end up with 2 for a while. I always winter with 1. Be flexible. Has Ted considered whether the one treated hive with lots of Varroa mites may have gained them from a nearby untreated colony they robbed? This explanation would seem to fit the facts as he presents them as well as the resistance theory. They important factor in showing honey is that it should be up to the weight specified. The standard UK one pound jar has a line around it just below the screw threads. This level indicates the volume occupied by a pound of ordinary honey (heather honey has lots of air bubbles which need to be allowed for). The show judge will bring his own set of electronic scales and an empty jar with lid. He will not penalise an entry for showing the top of the honey as long as it is heavy enough. Having said that, I do normally over fill my jars of honey for sale so the top is concealed by the rim of the lid so that the customer thinks she is getting good measure for her money. Are there any beekeepers in Tenerife? I shall be there for a week at the end of the month and would welcome a meeting with tropical bees and their keeper. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:49:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: refractometer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You shouldn't have a problem with fermentation if you wait till all the frames are capped before extraction. At that time the honey is down to a water content below which fermentaion can't happen. I forget the percentage but it's somewhere around 18%. Ian Watson St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada > Is there any other way to measure the moisture content of honey other = > than buying one of these expensive gizmos? I don't want to risk = > fermentation, but hate to spent the money unless it's absolutely = > necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:49:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: refractometer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lowell: If your needs are for definite accuracy, you have to use the "correct" tools, not guess work, so you use a calibrated refractometer to measure honey moisture. You would not try to weigh aspirin tablets on a bathroom weight scale, nor would you use a 1 pound honey jar to as a gasoline emergency can to fill your car gas tank. However, by PROPERLY extracting your honey, you will avoid high moisture. Back in the "good old days", before all Americans were in a mad rush for everything, the was very little use for a refractometer because beekeepers were not RUSHED to market. The MAJOR MISTAKE is extracting honey that is not FULLY CAPPED. Honey bees do not cap the honey until the honey is totally cured and hence below 18.6% moisture content. These "not so careful" beeHAVERS, will extract all ten super frames when only about 6-8 of them are fully capped and the others maybe have 10-20% open cells, and these "small apples" spoil the whole barrel. Another major mistake is the beekeeper leaving extracted honey just sitting in an uncovered container while it is settling or waiting to be bottled. Honey is very hygroscopic and absorbs moisture right out of the air, particularly in my high humidity area of Washington, DC. If you observe the PROPER techniques for extracting and protecting your honey from exposure to humid air, your honey will normally be OK and not ferment. I admit, since I am a retired scientist, I naturally use a refractometer, just to be sure; but few do. If I can further help, write me. Also, you can find my famous PINK PAGES on: http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Apistan and/or Coumaphos In-Reply-To: <199907182141.RAA02923@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The following was found in the first aid treatment for the chemical Coumaphos on the www.epa.gov web site (no document for the chemical used in Apistan was found): Signs and Symptoms of Acute Coumaphos Exposure: Note: Coumaphos is a cholinesterase inhibitor. Acute exposure to coumaphos may produce the following signs and symptoms: pinpoint pupils, blurred vision, headache, dizziness, muscle spasms, and profound weakness. Vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, seizures, and coma may also occur. The heart rate may decrease following oral exposure or increase following dermal exposure. Hypotension (low blood pressure) and chest pain may be noted. Hypertension (high blood pressure) is not uncommon. Respiratory effects include dyspnea (shortness of breath), respiratory depression, and respiratory paralysis. Psychosis may occur. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:32:09 -0300 Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: refractometer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lowell & Diane Hutchison wrote: > > Is there any other way to measure the moisture content of honey other = > than buying one of these expensive gizmos? In our Province, there is a government laboratory to which one can take such samples for testing. Possibly your State Dept of Agriculture can point you in a similar direction. Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:20:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: arpita roy Subject: RFI: info on bee probiotics - yeasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all I am a researcher at the University of Agricultural Sciences , Bangalore, India. I am looking for information on yield improvement in honey bees to improve yields through probiotics(artificial feeding of yeast cultures etc). Thanks in Advance Arpita === Arpita Roy Dept. of Agril. Entomology Univ. of Agricultural Sciences Bangalore 560065 India _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:50:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alden Leatherman Subject: Re: Refractometer Comments: To: bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to add to George Imirie's observation that honey can absorb moisture from the air after being extracted while sitting in an open container. Two years ago I removed over 95 % capped honey from my two hives a week before I was ready to extract. I did this so I could get my Apistan on in late August as was being advised by Dr. Hoopingarner (at nearby Michigan State University) and others at the time. The week I left the supers sitting outside, well sealed from the bees and yellowjackets but not the night air, the humidity was very high and reached 100% several nights as evidenced by heavy dew and fog. When I got around to extracting, I noticed immediately that my honey was very thin. I was baffled because I had thought I was safe in extracting supers that were nearly 100% capped. I sent a sample in to Dr. Hoopingarner who kindly used his refractometer to measure moisture content and informed me that it was (as I remember now) just under 21% moisuture content. I didn't have "dry" honey to mix it with so could not bottle and sell it retail. I kept it frozen to keep it from fermenting until I sold it to a large! packer in bulk (yes, I informed them of it's moisture content) who was able to mix it with dryer honey for bottling. The lessons for me were: 1) Honey does indeed absorb moisture from the air readily (I knew that) 2) Cappings are not a seal against that absorbtion taking place (I didn't know that) 3) If extraction must be delayed, keep the supers in as dry of an environment as possible. (I now put a light bulb under my stack of supers, inside, if I need to delay) Alden Leatherman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:49:00 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: Refractometer > 1) Honey does indeed absorb moisture from the air readily (I knew > that) On a page I created with a number of Javascript 'conversion' factors (both straight maths and also 'rules of thumb') there is an interesting conversion at the bottom, letting you get an understanding of the relationship of relative humdity to honey moisture equilibrium. At its simplest (never a good thing to say!) the honey of any given moisture content has a particular relative humdity at which point it will neither give off nor take up moisture. The higher the honey's moisture content, the higher that relative humidity is. Honey at, say 17.3% moisture is 'stable' at about 57% rh, while honey at 20% moisture would be in equilibrium at 63% rh. What I'm saying is that the 'dryer' your honey is, the more important that it not be allowed into prolonged contact with an atmosphere high in moisture, else it won't stay dry for long! http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/convert.htm (Note: I can't remember where I got the original conversion factors from - may have been Andrew Matheson, formerly of IBRA now with MAF RA. If anyone can shed any more light on the maths of it, I'd be pleased to hear! Also, any other conversions/rules of thumb that you think might be worth adding...) (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:45:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: New Scientist honey bee article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mr. Lewis wrote last month: >The June 5, 1999 New Scientist magazine has an article [that treats the >issue of how a swarm of bees might] go about describing where to start >their new hive. Those interested also might find the following scholarly article of interest: 1992 Wenner, A.M. Swarm movement: A mystery explained. AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. 132 (1):27-31 (January issue). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ********** * * You cannot hold on to the past; when you're holding on to the past, you're * protecting yourself and stealing from future generations." * * NASA Chief, Dan Goldin * LOS ANGELES TIMES - 1 July 1999 * **************************************************************************** ********** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: DOUGLAS.BARNEY@GBE.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Douglas Barney Organization: Graybar Electric Co. Subject: Source for Containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried some traditional (don't like the words old fashion) section comb honey and actually have some. I now need some containers. The only containers I find are for cut comb and not the 1 7/8 by 4 1/4 by 4 1/4 inches. Can anyone help with a source for containers or how do you market section comb honey. Thanks DougB in PA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:07:14 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Drone trapping In-Reply-To: <000c01bed110$5f050900$de3dd0d1@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 18 Jul 99, at 7:26, eparker wrote: > I'm wondering, if the number of drones in the"area" has any effect on the > number of drones produced in individual hives. David Eyre said he > establishes hives that produces large numbers of drones. Would that have > any effect on the number of drones produced in the "normal" hives of that > apiary? If less drones were produced in the "normal" hives could this have > any effect on mite populations in those hives, or would they simply move > to worker larva? Just a thought. Interesting thought, but I think not. Each hive is individual, as far as drone production is concerned. We find that drone production is directly related to the age of the queen involved. A young queen in her first year will produce very few drones, even if there are lots of drone cells. As to whether the queen lays in them and the bees remove the eggs is unclear, but an older queen will lay up whole frames of drone foundation. We rely on this fact for selecting our drone mothers. It's been stated frequently on this list that no drones just means the varroa move into worker cells. They [Varroa] much prefer drone cells as they will reproduce and produce more young varroa in drone cells than worker cells. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: Refractometer In-Reply-To: <199907191355.JAA18133@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The lessons for me were: >1) Honey does indeed absorb moisture from the air readily (I knew that) >2) Cappings are not a seal against that absorbtion taking place (I didn't >know that) >3) If extraction must be delayed, keep the supers in as dry of an >environment as possible. (I now put a light bulb under my stack of supers, >inside, if I need to delay) > >Alden Leatherman Moisture will also be absorbed by honey left sitting on bee escapes too long Bob Darrell RR#2 Caledon Ontario, Canada L0N1C0 80W44N ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:15:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Source for Containers Comments: To: DOUGLAS.BARNEY@gbe.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/19/99 8:31:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DOUGLAS.BARNEY@GBE.COM writes: > Can anyone help with a source for containers or how do you market > section comb honey. Try Drapers, right there in PA: http://www.draperbee.com/ Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 01:13:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Apistan and/or Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Burgess wrote: To me it seems illogical that resistance to Apistan would have developed in > only one colony, if you treated all your colonies in the same way. > Isn't it more likely that the colony in question has robbed out a heavily > infested feral colony which was on the point of collapse? I don't know why this should be illogical. Varroa mites, like all biological organisms, make up a population of widely varying individuals. This is evidenced by the observation that 98% (or some such number) of varroa are killed by the standard Apistan treatment. Why is it not 100%? Because of this natural variation, following the same bell-shaped curve used to describe the size of leaves on a tree or the performance of students on an examination. During the course of Apistan treatment, some individuals are very susceptible and die off fast; some more and more slowly; and finally some haven't reached their death by the time the Apistan must be removed. So the last 2% represents the high end tail of this bell -shaped curve. Among these may be an even smaller population that may never fall to this chemical, and in the presence of Apistan they will reproduce and pass on this genetic characteristic. This resistance will start randomly, occurring only occasionally at first until such mites are spread to other colonies of bees. Then one should expect these resistant mites to have an enormous reproductive advantage over nonresistant mites, until Apistan will be of no use. Therefore I feel that it is opportune to try the neuroactive chemical coumaphos. It will hit these Apistan-resistant mites at a different physiological site, hopefully controlling them before they can spread to other colonies. Then one can return to the safer Apistan. Why would not robbing behavior explain the premature appearance of varroa? It is a possibility, but bees are not prone to rob during a honey flow, which has been going now at differing rates for the six weeks since Apistan was removed from the colony in question. I have even inadvertently left a full frame of honeycomb for a couple days in the yard without attracting any attention at all, except from mice. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:25:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Apistan and/or Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >I don't know why this should be illogical. Varroa mites, like all biological >organisms, make up a population of widely varying individuals. This is >evidenced by the observation that 98% (or some such number) of varroa are >killed by the standard Apistan treatment. Why is it not 100%? Because of this >natural variation, following the same bell-shaped curve used to describe the >size of leaves on a tree or the performance of students on an examination. For the mites to breed resistance a genetic mutation must exist before, or come into existence during a period of selection pressure (Apistan strips). This mutation must produce a trait that will allow that subset of the population to reproduce when the others do not. If the resistance is in the mites genetics then introducing a different pressure (Mite-Check) could knock down the population with the first resistant trait. However there could be other issues. The chemical in Apistan requires contact with the mites to work. A 98% kill rate could mean that 2% of the bees that carry the mite will not get near the strips. The chemical in Mite-Check advertises a lower kill ratio than Apistan. It could therefore be the case that given the same number of bees carrying mites come into contact with the strip, fewer of the attached mites will die. It could be the case that more bees avoid the Mite-Check strips. Selection can work for behavior as well as chemical tolerance. For example mites could select for a trait that causes them to attach to bees in such a way as to avoid contact with strips. This is along the same lines that selects bees for hygienic behavior. It is the actions of the individual that promote survival rather than a metabolic resistance to a chemical. An example of this was in the roach traps that contained two simple sugars as bait and a toxin to kill the bug that ate the bait. The roaches developed a surviving population that were not controlled by the traps. The reason was not that they became immune to the toxin, but that they avoided one of the simple sugars in the trap. When the trap was redesigned to use only the other sugar, the resistant population came back under control. In any event since Mite-Check leaves a residual population that can start a selection process for resistance. In this case there is no reason that the survivors will not be resistant to both Apistan and Mite-Check. My thoughts are that a method to deal with resistant mites should involve pressures not related to strips. One method mentioned is the drone brood trapping. Formic acid could become another. Who knows maybe a pheromone trap for mites could be developed where a "fake" frame of drone brood (using the pheromones that attract mites to drones) is inserted into the hive and 48 hours later removed along with the mites ready to lay eggs. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:45:30 +0200 Reply-To: Apiservices - Gilles Ratia Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiservices - Gilles Ratia Organization: Apiservices Subject: Varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have a look at http://www.beekeeping.com/plateau-anti-varroas/index_us.htm Texts in English, French or German (+ 2 pictures + 1 diagram) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:48:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael W Stoops Subject: Re: Queen Mating Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- >From: Pollinator@AOL.COM >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: Re: Queen Mating >Date: Sun, Jul 18, 1999, 1:14 > >> With whom does the queen mate? OK, I know she mates with a drone, but = >> is it a drone from her own hive? > > This is not desirable, as it would be her brother. Wouldn't the drone really bee the queen's son? >My understanding is that she needs to mate 12-15 times to have a long life. Does a queen actually mate that many times? I thought the normal was four to six times in only one flight. Mike Stoops Beekeeper Wanna-Bee Monroe County, Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:20:10 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: fermented honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question about fermented honey. I acquired a couple of honey supers from the estate of a beekeeper. What luck - I had just run out of equipment and the honey flow was still on. Bad luck - there was a little honey left in the frames and by the smell the very thin honey was fermented. I removed as much of the fermented honey as I could. There was quite a bit. Yet when I put it on the hive, some remained in the cells. This was a very strong colony with about 120 pounds of honey in supers on it already and bees hanging all over the outside and packed inside the telescoping cover. I checked on them one day later and there were no outward signs of a problem. What is the thinking... is there a problem with putting the fermented honey on the hive? To the bees? To the honey crop? Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:04:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Butcher Organization: Dundee University Subject: Re: Queen Mating In-Reply-To: Hi, > >> With whom does the queen mate? OK, I know she mates with a drone, but = > >> is it a drone from her own hive? Drones are usually prevented from gaining acess to the queen within the hive shortly before her mating flight by workers. However, it remains possible that the queen will meet and mate with drone(s) from her own hive whilst on her mating flight, but this will depend upon the number of other drones present (if mating is truely random and no kin discrimination is shown) from other hives. > > This is not desirable, as it would be her brother. I suspect it would actually be her son. However, yes it would be undesirable. In addition to inbreeding supression (reduced fecundity etc) her son will carry one of her two sex alleles. That is if she ONLY mated to her son half of the fertilised eggs laid (intended workers normally) would start to develop as diploid males. In apis mellifera where the cells are capped late in larval development the response of the workers is to kill and eat these males, so ther cost to the hive is limited in the sense that little nutitrional, or cell or time waste occurs, but however note that her fecundity is essentially halved and so she will produce less workers per unit time, and over her life time. This is a serious cost and may well lead to this hive failing to establish in competition from other hives. Of course the actual cost will depend upon the number of other non-related matings she gets, but the principal holds. > > >My understanding is that she needs to mate 12-15 times to have a long life. I am not aware of any evidence that multiple mating actually directly increases her longeivity. Rather she probably multiply mates for at least two simplistic reasons, but note there must be other factors at work here as neither of these explainations would account for so many matings (queens excude sperm and thus have tacken on too much (see a), and to sample the population sex allele at random to reduce matched matings and hence diploid male production would only require some 6-10 matings (see b) (a) compared to a single mating, to ensure she acquires sufficient sperm to last her lifetime. That is to avoid being sperm limited. A queen that runs out of sperm can no longer lay diploid eggs (workers or queens) but is committed to laying only drones. (b) to reduce the risk of mating to a sex allele related male (e.g. son, see above) and thus increase her overall worker production and minimise diploid male production. (Thus in other species , such as the Meliponia bees, where the cells are capped early on, and so workers cannot kill diploid males and eat them, and so the cost is higher, workers kill and usurp the queen if she produces diploid males and so these queens rarely multiply mate as reducing the diploid load (simplistically, the ratio of workers that develop as diploid males) from 50% to say 12.5% will not increase her chances of avoiding usurping, but the extra matings will increase her chance of mating to a sex allele related male). However, since an Apis mellifera queen that is sperm limited is likely to be usurped in that the workers will try to rear a queen and swarm, and that a match-mated (son mated) queen may well fail to establish a successful hive (colony), then indirectly, yes, it will effect her longeivity. > Does a queen actually mate that many times? I thought the normal was four > to six times in only one flight. There is observational evidence for some 17-37 copulations per mating flight, and perhaps up to 5 mating flights. However recent molecular analysis to ascribe paternity to the workers in the hive has also established that in known single queen hives the queen is using sperm from at least 17 males, and so must have acqrued at least that many copulations during her mating flight(s). Rob Robert Butcher, Evolutionary and Ecological Entomology Unit, Department of Biological Sciences, Dundee University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Tayside, Scotland, UK. Work Phone:- 01382-344291 (Office), 01382-344756 (Lab). Fax:- 01382-344864 e-mail:- r.d.j.butcher@dundee.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:49:21 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Queen mating In-Reply-To: <199907211006.GAA14564@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Butcher wrote > > > This is not desirable, as it would be her brother. > I suspect it would actually be her son. If the drones came from the same hive as the virgin queen then I would assume they would be brother and sister as they would have the same mother. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:28:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907171441.KAA08335@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What *is* in dispute is whether, in fact, emergency queens are > necessarily generated from old larvae, and what quality can > be expected in emergency queens raised under good conditions. I apologise for replying to my own post, but I've been thinking: We habitually distinguish emergency cells from supercedure cells. But, what I ask is this: what is the difference between a supercedure situation and and the conditions that result in emergency cells? Not much, I'd hazard. It's a matter of degree, as far as I can see. Loss of a queen could be an extreme case of the 'poor queen' state that results in supercedure. Now, unless I'm wrong, it seems to me that 'most everyone considers supercedure queens to be just fine -- well fed and raised by bees from larvae of the correct age. What I want to know then, is why do people assume that the same process and correct results do not occur in the case where a queen disappears... allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:51:02 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Farrington/Bequia Canvas Subject: catching feral hives Comments: To: Bee-L submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody; I have searched the archives for methods to catch feral hives; there is = precious little information. I did download plans for the ingenious = bee-vac - thank you Matthew Westall and Barry Birkey. =20 We are belessed with many feral hives in Bequia, just waiting to be = brought into sombody's yard (preferably mine). Unfortunately, the bee-vac only works if there is a source of = electricity nearby. Unfortuantely, most of these hives are quite some = distance from electricity. Short of cutting down a tree, does anybody have any ideas about catching = these feral hives? =20 Your input will be valued. Thanks, Bob in Bequia beqcan@caribsurf.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:56:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Sevigny Subject: honey-boound brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Inspection of two of my hives found that there is nectar/honey in the upper brood chamber (2 deeps). There is NO ROOM for laying in the upper deep. I live in New England, and was wondering if it is worthwhile and practical to extract the honey in the brood chamber to make room for more laying. If so, how would one best go about this? I was thinking that putting the brood chamber on top of the honey supers over a bee escape, then blowing out the remaining bees the following day might do it. Has anyone done this? Will the effort be worth the benefit, or should I just allow the remainder of the season to pass, knowing that the bees will have a hefty supply of honey going into the winter... ----------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Sevigny marcs@legato.com Legato Systems (508) 229-0400 X101 Summit Place 4th Floor 420 Lakeside Ave fax: (508) 229-0400 Marlborough, MA 01752 www.legato.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:33:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bowride@NETZERO.NET Subject: jojoba MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, . Do bees work jojoba? Do bees work plants and trees that are wind pollinated? Thank You David ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:17:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Butcher Organization: Dundee University Subject: Re: Queen mating Comments: To: queenbee@GIL.COM.AU In-Reply-To: Hi Trevor and all, > If the drones came from the same hive as the virgin queen then I would assume they would be brother and sister as they would have the same mother. Yes indeed that would be the case if mating took place shortly after adult (imago) eclosure and dispersal from the parental hive. The key thing is when does the mating flight take place, and indeed it is when the queen and her brothers (drones) have developed, and not some time after the queen has established a colony. Thus, it is her BROTHER she is possibly likely to mate with (as stated by the original post and Trevor) and not her son. (Son mating could only occur in the colony hive, and is unlikely). I apologise for this seriouse error on my part and any confusion / misleading it caused, and Thanks particularly to Trevor for pointing it out. Cheers Rob Robert Butcher, Evolutionary and Ecological Entomology Unit, Department of Biological Sciences, Dundee University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Tayside, Scotland, UK. Work Phone:- 01382-344291 (Office), 01382-344756 (Lab). Fax:- 01382-344864 e-mail:- r.d.j.butcher@dundee.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:31:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "The Burlingames(" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Jul 1999 to 18 Jul 1999 (#1999-115) HI Bee Guys and Gals, I have one hive that the ants are in. Put it on a new stand today and could see the big black ants making a trip from bottom into the top one right after another. Do any of you have good suggestions for dealin with this problem. Someone mentioned putting the legs of the stand in small cans of oil...vegie oil or recyled auto oil.....Any ideas are welcome. I learned the hard way that the best time to work the hives is in the heat of the day when the bees are busiest.....we had been working them in the cool of the evening and found they were really testy. Today worked them in hot PNW weather..all of 70'....and other than about melted in the bee suit, I wasn't stung at all...but my husband who stood back some distance at my beck and call (just joking) ended up getting stung in the chest. That's why he doesn't do his bees....and I have gotten "stuck" doing his hobby! The bees love him.....nail him every time he gets near and he doesn't wear after shave or any of that stuff....could be his bald shiney head that attracts their attention! Thanks guys for all the good info..and especially to those who have responded to some of my questions.. We now have 4 hives with 4 supers on two and three on two...having started out with 2 boxes of bees in April..never dreaming there was this much work to beekeeping! Thanks, Meri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:29:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Re: catching feral hives In-Reply-To: <199907211316.JAA16831@listserv.albany.edu>; from "Farrington/Bequia Canvas" at Jul 21, 99 6:51 am According to Farrington/Bequia Canvas: > > Hello everybody; > I have searched the archives. . . I did download plans for the ingenious = > bee-vac - thank you Matthew Westall and Barry Birkey. =20 > Unfortunately, the bee-vac only works if there is a source of = > electricity nearby. Unfortuantely, most of these hives are quite some = > distance from electricity. You might try using a gas-powered leaf blower. Cap the air INtake end & hook a vacuun hose to it. Some designs lend themselves to this better than others -- depends on the size & location of the intake. Good luck. Fred Virginia, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:41:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: honey-boound brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/99 10:12:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marcs@LEGATO.COM writes: > I was thinking that putting the brood chamber > on top of the honey supers over a bee escape, > then blowing out the remaining bees the > following day might do it. > > Has anyone done this? Will the effort be > worth the benefit, or should I just allow > the remainder of the season to pass, > knowing that the bees will have a hefty > supply of honey going into the winter... I wouldn't take ALL the upper box, unless you can be sure of fall feeding. What if the fall flow fails? But you also need young bees going into winter, and if the queen is shutting down this early, and the hive stays honeybound, you won't have young bees. How much room does the queen have in the lower box? If it is mostly brood, you probably are okay. But if it also has a lot of honey, I'd pull three or four frames from the top box and give her some laying room. Best to put back comb, not foundation this late in the season. I find bees don't draw very good comb on summer or fall flows. You might have to extract and return the frames in a hurry, if you don't have frames of comb. I always try to manage the bees so they have a good supply of brood (at least one deep box or equivalent) through the goldenrod bloom. Then mama can quit for a couple months, as the hive will have lots of young bees for wintering. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:10:35 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: honey-boound brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marc Sevigny wrote: > Inspection of two of my hives found that > there is nectar/honey in the upper brood > chamber (2 deeps). There is NO ROOM > for laying in the upper deep. > .... > > I was thinking that putting the brood chamber > on top of the honey supers over a bee escape, > then blowing out the remaining bees the > following day might do it. > > Has anyone done this? Will the effort be > worth the benefit? The bees can rearrange their stores much easier than you can do it, provided you give them room to move the extra honey to. If they don't, you can assume that they would rather just live in the lower chamber and save the upper one for winter. At this time of the season, the rapid brood expansion in over and they are in replacement mode. I have occasionally extracted honey from brood chambers, and find that pollen is often stored in the bottom of many cells and covered with a thin layer of honey. This pollen/honey is heavy and hard to uncap, and will tend to unbalance the extractor if you're not careful. So if you do extract it make sure that you place similar frames across from each other. Another consideration is that late fall honey is said to be of poorer nutritional value than that collected earlier in the season, so the honey already in place would be better winter stores for them than if they were to refill it with aster honey later. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: catching feral hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Unfortunately, the bee-vac only works if there is a source of = > electricity nearby. Unfortuantely, most of these hives are quite some = > distance from electricity. I use a leaf blower/vac that is gas powered. I bought is for $50 US as a factory refurbished unit. It works great as a vacuum and as a bee blower to clear supers. Although it is made to hang from the shoulder, I set it on the ground and use a long hose. No electricity required. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:27:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Queen mating In-Reply-To: <199907211328.JAA17296@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Thus, it is her BROTHER she is possibly likely to mate with (as > stated by the original post and Trevor) and not her son. (Son mating > could only occur in the colony hive, and is unlikely). Actually, if a virgin queen mated with a drone from her own hive, of her own generation, she would be mating with her MOTHER, since -- unlike the virgin in question -- brother drones do not carry any genes other than those of the queen that is mother to them both. And more... Just because a drone may be living in the hive from which a queen emerges to mate, we cannot assume that he is related. Drones are known to drift, and in season, may be accepted in hives far from home according to some sources. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:05:09 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Jul 1999 to 18 Jul 1999 (#1999-115) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pluck a few stalks of Yarrow and place them under the outter cover. The stuff grows wild in most places around here. It's an herb. Grist Mill Apiary Ernie Gregoire Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 07/21/99 11:05:09 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:23:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Jul 1999 to 18 Jul 1999 (#1999-115) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Burlingames( wrote: > HI Bee Guys and Gals, > > I have one hive that the ants are in. > > Dear Meri, I had the same problem about 3 days ago. I had just moved my hives to mango trees and when I went back I saw hundreds of these little pests running all over my hives and looting like crazy !(Grrrr!!!) I then bought some axle grease and smeared it on the legs of the hive stands. You should also keep your apiary free from long grass against the hives because the ants will use it as a bridge to get on the hive if they are stopped by the grease. I also have heard that when an ant has found some food (your honey) it will leave a type of chemical trail for others to follow. Maybe you could scratch around in the dirt in an attempt to confuse them. Glen van Niekerk South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:49:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: Re: honey-boound brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marc Saving wrote: > Inspection of two of my hives found that > there is nectar/honey in the upper brood > chamber (2 deeps). There is NO ROOM > for laying in the upper deep. > > I live in New England, and was wondering > if it is worthwhile and practical to extract > the honey in the brood chamber to make > room for more laying. Hi! I did this about 4 weeks ago to stop the African bees swarming tendency. I usually do this in the beginning of the season when large amounts of nectar and pollen is being collected. I took 2 of the outer frames (no 1 & no 10) out of the hive. Next I split the other 8 frames in groups of 4 each(this is in the same hive). I then replaced 2 frames with wax foundation in position 5 & 6. Yesterday when I went to inspect I found that these 2 new frames had been drawn with comb, filled on both sides with larva and capped ! Now I have a swarming problem again ! I think I shall split these hives in 2. Maybe it is better to keep these honey stores for your bees now. You then should have a stronger colony in the spring and then with your next honey flow you can try it. Glen van Niekerk South Africa P.S I use supers to crop honey - not deeps ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:15:35 -0700 Reply-To: r@citybees.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert MacKimmie Subject: Varroa showing up in spades -- Strategy??? Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Excuse my greenhorn question, but this is my first year with hives running at full strength into the season in numbers, therefore my ignorance. Mites seem to be appearing in spades in a number of my hives. Our nectar flow can linger into October and I have a maximum of supers on right now. Can anyone share their strategy about when and how to deal with varroa when they show up at this time of year. If I wait until the nectar flow is over several months from now, will I have any bees left? Thanks everybody. robert@citybees.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:19:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Wiring Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all, Having visited the site refered to by Nick Wallingford, i.e. Calculation site at http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/convert.htm I thought a simple trial was a reasonable thing to do, so the question posed was: How much time is required to wire 100 frames? Response- about 1 hour. Question- How does one wire 100 frames in one hour. It takes me about 5 hours. Here in France there is no pre-wired foundation, so all frames have to be individually wired and waxed. I would be grateful for any info. that would speed up my wiring rate!! PETER. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:47:41 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asks what is the difference between a supercedure situation and the conditions that result in an emergency queen cell? My observations suggest that what I call supercedure cells (SC) are usually started before the queen shows any sign of failure. I'm sometimes surprised how early bees start SCs. And SC are sometimes started when a new queen is introduced to a colony. If these cells are destroyed when six to 12 days old the bees usually don't start any new SCs. The cells are always in the upper third and on the face of the comb. They are usually capped and a few days from new queen emergence before the old queen disappears. And sometimes the new queen even starts laying and can be observed in the hive for some weeks before the original marked queen disappears. The cells are usually long and wide. When the queen emerges a large amount of royal jelly is still in the bottom of the cell. What I call emergency cells (EC) are usually built when the queen shows evidence of failing such as with a spotty brood pattern, sometimes she has damaged body parts, or has recently disappeared as when one sees a few eggs, or one and two day old larvae (and older) but no queen. The colony is usually but not always noisy (scent fanning behavior). The ECs usually appear to be of the age as to have come either from a few of the last eggs the queen laid or young larvae. The bees seem to act upset and nervous, sometimes acting jittery on the comb. The ECs usually are about one half to three quarters the size of a SC. Sometimes the ECs are small enough to be hid in various portions of the comb and you need to shake the bees off the comb to be sure and not miss some. ECs are sometimes on the face of the comb and sometimes also at the edges of the comb or edges of holes through the comb like swarm cells. ECs usually don't have any royal jelly left in them when the queen is seen emerging. Sometimes I think a queen coming from an EC is smaller than an SC queen but I can't say for sure since I have never measured any queens. (That would be an interesting study.) EC queens appear to be less successful at heading a prosperous colony and often fail after a short time (estimate 50% or more), though there are exceptions. SC queens usually do well (estimate 85-100%). Perhaps that is why I've thought that EC queens are inferior to SC queens. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com