From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:23 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27352 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11129 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11129@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:16 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9907D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 123315 Lines: 2735 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Viktor Sten Subject: Re: Splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What I want to know then, is why do people assume that the same process >and correct results do not occur in the case where a queen disappears... > >allen ------------------------- Hi If you are in the businees of selling queens nothing but freshly purchased queens will do! This remark is not ment as an offense to anybody. Viktor in Hawkesbury , On. where the golden rod are starting to bloom. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:40:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Jul 1999 to 18 Jul 1999 (#1999-115) The Burlingames(Meri) said " . . . I have one hive that the ants are in. Put it on a new stand today and could see the big black ants making a trip from bottom into the top one right after another. Do any of you have good suggestions for dealin with this problem. Someone mentioned putting the legs of the stand in small cans of oil...vegie oil or recyled auto oil.....Any ideas are welcome. " I have used the ant bait traps that cause the ants to carry poison back to their home. Place it across their path and wait. Had the problem twice. Make sure that the type of bait that you get is *not* accessible by the bees, as it will poison them also. We have plenty of ants around here to experiment with, I am currently trying using boric acid with sugar water - others have said it works. Again, with this, check out the archives of the bee list. There is great information in there. And you don't ever have to wonder how someone takes your question! Welcome to bee keeping. Hope you find it as enjoyable as we(my sons and I) do. Tim Rich ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:16:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JamesCBach wrote: > EC queens appear to be less successful at heading a prosperous colony and > often fail after a short time (estimate 50% or more), though there are > exceptions. SC queens usually do well (estimate 85-100%). Perhaps that is > why I've thought that EC queens are inferior to SC queens. Question- if EC queens are superseded by SC queens are those SC queens superior and have we just corrected the problem of inferior EC queens? Sounds like a who's on first question, but hope you follow it. Reason for the question is that if we have a self healing situation, the major loss is if the EC queen stays on and the lesser loss is in the reduced efficiency of the hive during transition to a new SC queen. Depending on the answer, based on this thread so far it seems best to have supercedure after an emergency queen. I don't agree that emergency queens are inferior. I continually make new queens by the emergency method have been rewarded with better and better queens. It all gets back to when you make them, as Allan has said. If the bees make an emergency queen in a major honey flow or have a supercedure during a dearth- which will probably be the superior queen? Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:02:36 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Solomon Islands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone on the list with contacts with beekeepergroups on the Solomon Islands?? or know anyone with contacts with beekeepergroups on the Solomon Islands?? mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl greeting , jant -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:32:37 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: Wiring Frames > How much time is required to wire 100 frames? > Response- about 1 hour. The conversion factor ('rule of thumb') that I used in the calculation page (http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/convert.htm) is in fact 60 frames per hour. That's the figure that you should be able to maintain over a period of hours, giving you enough time to move the frames about, get a new reel of wire and stare off into space because you are absolutely bored silly... > Question- How does one wire 100 frames in one hour. It takes me about 5 > hours. The difference between us, Peter, may be in the concept of 'wiring a frame'. Here in NZ, we wire with only three (or sometimes 4) horizontal wires in a full depth frame. I have seen some exotic (and no doubt extremely effective) wiring methods, with horizontal, diagonal, etc, wires. We also use wiring boards (which have been recently discussed on the list, I believe) to put tension on an end bar, ensuring tight wires. The wiring process involves running the wire through the holes until you get to the end, securing one end with a tack into the endbar, tensioning somewhat, securing the other end to a tack and breaking the wire off. Then that satisfying 'twang' to convince you and anyone else listening that it is tight enough! (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:09:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Apistan and/or coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Fischer mentions that Varroa mites like all biological organisms make up a population of widely varying individuals. While not disagreeing with this statement it is worth pointing out that the typical varroa mite is the product of a brother/ sister mating. This must dramatically reduce their genetic variability compared to honeybees where the opposite is the case. >From this it follows that once resistant traits appear among honeybees, as they surely will in the fullness of time, the difference in mating habits will have a multiplier effect enabling bees to out-evolve varroa mites. Chris Slade Thinking it's not like me to be an optimist: pessimists have all the pleasant surprises. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:52:24 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: Solomon Islands Comments: cc: cliff@comvita.com > anyone with contacts with beekeepergroups on the Solomon Islands?? Cliff Van Eaton (cliff@comvita.com) has made a number of consultancy trips to the Soloman Islands over the last 5 years or so. He'd be by far the most clued up re: conditions, contacts, etc. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:42:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: arpita roy Subject: RFI: Bee probiotics Comments: To: bee-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Everyone Would anyone know pointers to information on probiotics for bee-keeping. More specifically i am looking for use of feeding of live yeast-cultures for enhanced gut microbial activity. Thanks in Advance. === Arpita Roy Dept. of Agril. Entomology Univ. of Agricultural Sciences Bangalore 560065 India _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:54:05 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Splits, Supercedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell asks a question about what happens if Emergency Cell queens are replaced by Supercedure Cell queens. I've never known that to occur. I use marked queens all the time and when queens appear that are not marked I note it in my field note book and mark the new queen. If the queen doesn't do well I replace her thinking that you can't get a good queen from a poor one. (But maybe I'm wrong about that. I know of no research on the subject.) I find that emergency queens don't last long, I either replace them, combine the colony with another one, or they are replaced when I requeen the following year with my two queen system. Poor queens aren't worth keeping, the colony usually winters poorly. I have been thinking that if the queen cell doesn't have any royal jelly in it when the queen emerges, when did she run out of food? If she ran out of food, what did that do to her development and quality? Does it affect her behavior and performance as an adult? Is she capable of achieving ideal body size and weight, full ovary development, full pheromone production, etc., etc.? Bill says he continually makes new queens by the emergency method and has been rewarded with better and better queens. I wonder. When making splits with brood and eggs and letting the bees raise their own queens I have observed that different colonies build queen cells differently. Some start immediately, some wait for a day or more before starting cells. Some have cells with nearly the same aged larvae, others have cells with a range of larval age. The cell sizes, and placement on the comb are variable within a colony and between colonies. Some build one or two large cells, others build a few large cells and the rest are what I call emergency cells. Some build only small cells. A few don't build cells at all or only cell cups. I don't think queen quality is based on when the bees make a queen so much as on their behavior triggered by queen pheromone levels in the colony, or lack thereof, age of the nurse bees, available nutrition, and on their genetics. I've seen large supercedure cells and emergency cells in the dearth period after orchard bloom, during the honey flow, and I've also seen them both in the fall after the honey flow. It appears to me that bee behavior in raising queen cells is quite variable, much like the characteristics of colonies from the same line of bees from a breeder. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:07:25 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade mentions that "the typical varroa mite is the product of a brother/sister mating." And then states that "this must dramatically reduce their genetic variability." Questions: Why have varroa mites successfully existed for so long given their proclivity for inbreeding? Why do they successfully reproduce with such similar characteristics and behaviors in their offspring? Do they have some biological trait, or DNA sequence, that is unknown to us that keeps their male/female genetics separate so that actual inbreeding doesn't occur in their species? Thinking that observed behavior doesn't always reveal their inner workings. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:58:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: Re: Apistan and/or coumaphos In-Reply-To: <199907222307.TAA27589@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 Chris Slade wrote: > the typical varroa mite is the product of a brother/ sister mating. > This must dramatically reduce their genetic variability compared to > honeybees where the opposite is the case. Just out of curiosity, on what basis do you conclude that Varroa mites are largely inbred? Assuming a sufficiently large Varroa population in a hive, and assuming even a moderate degree of bee drifting and bee robbing (thus transferring mites among hives), I would think the Varroa mites would have enough genetic diversity to prevent serious inbreeding. > From this it follows that once resistant traits appear among honeybees, > as they surely will in the fullness of time, the difference in mating > habits will have a multiplier effect enabling bees to out-evolve varroa > mites. I wouldn't be so sure of this. Remember, as honeybees evolve, so will the mites. And the mites will evolve faster than the honeybees, because their life cycle is at least an order of magnitude shorter--if not two orders of magnitude shorter--than honeybee queens. Without human intervention, clearly, the mites would have decimated the honeybee population. Of course, by doing so, the mites would have decimated their *own* population as well, because they would have eliminated most of the population of their only host species. In this type of host/parasite relationship (e.g., one where the parasite generally kills its only host, but only after completing several reproductive cycles), the following equilibirum would probably be achieved: 1. The honeybee population density drops low enough that the average distance between hives is greater than the field force foraging range. 2. As a result of the mites not being able to travel to new hives, the mite population takes a drastic nose-dive as they "burn out" most of the existing infected hives. 3. As a result of the negligible mite population, the honeybee population begins to increase. Eventually, the average honeybee population reaches the point where the average distance between hives is short enough to allow cross-infection. 4. The mite population increases rapidly as the mites spread throughout the honeybee population. The honeybee population is decimated as hives die off at a rapid pace. 5. Go to step #1 and repeat. Obviously, this type of natural equilibrium is unacceptable to beekeepers. But the type of equilibrium beekeepers want--a high honeybee population, and only a background level of mites--is going to be very difficult to consistently achieve with any of the current (or upcoming) forms of mite control. We don't want the Varroa mite to keep the honeybee population in check (which is essentially what the mites are doing). What we *really* need to discover is, essentially, a Varroa mite parasite that isn't harmful to anything else. This would do unto the Varroa population what Varroa does unto the honeybee population: when the Varroa population builds up enough to start traveling, the mite parasite would spread rapidly and decimate the mite population. A parasite that kept the Varroa mite population in check would prevent the Varroa mite from keeping the honeybee population in check. This technique has been used successfully for gypsy moth control. Specifically, the bacteria Bacilus thuringensis var. kurstaki infects the larvae of moths and butterflies and prevents them from developing. Many counties in western Pennsylvania had a huge gypsy moth problem a few years back. (There were so many moths that when you went outside, you could actually hear them eating the trees.) Sprayings of Bacilus thuringensis were carried out. Because the gypsy moth population was so great, the Bacilus thuringensis infection spread like wildfire, and it simply *destroyed* the gypsy moth population. Although I'm sure the gypsy moths are still around, their population levels are low enough that I haven't seen any since then. Unfortunately, I don't perceive any great effort being spent in investigating biological forms of mite control. Biological controls are generally long-term, high-research-effort solutions. Coming up with new chemicals is much easier (and more profitable, if you're the company selling the chemicals). James ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:49:54 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: jojoba MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David asked: > . Do bees work jojoba? > Do bees work plants and trees that are wind pollinated? I don't know about jojoba, but bees have been shown to work maize for pollen, which is normally assumed to be wind-pollinated. This has given rise to some concern about field trials of GM maize, which have been surrounded by a safety zone of only a few metres, in the belief that bees would not transfer pollen outside the trial field. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:59:34 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Apistan and/or Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Fischer wrote: > Therefore I feel that it is opportune to try the neuroactive chemical > coumaphos. It will hit these Apistan-resistant mites at a different > physiological site, hopefully controlling them before they can spread to other > colonies. Then one can return to the safer Apistan. I would simply suggest that a check to confirm that you really have Apistan-resistant varroa before resorting to the much more hazardous Coumaphos would be a good idea. As far as I know, Apistan used according to the label has never left detectable levels in honey. Is the same true for Coumaphos? John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:26:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Splits, Supercedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >When making splits with brood and eggs and letting the bees raise their own >queens I have observed that different colonies build queen cells >differently. Some start immediately, some wait for a day or more before >starting cells. Some have cells with nearly the same aged larvae, others >have cells with a range of larval age. The cell sizes, and placement on the >comb are variable within a colony and between colonies. Some build one or >two large cells, others build a few large cells and the rest are what I call >emergency cells. Some build only small cells. A few don't build cells at >all or only cell cups. This may be the core to why there is even a argument. The genetics of the two sample groups, could be causing the different results for the different beekeepers. If I have a large operation, and within that a large but stable gene pool, and begin a practice, then I am going to select for traits that improve the survival rate when pressured by that practice. If I do walk away splits, then requeen failure, I will be selecting for the traits that favor starting a queen from a young larvae or egg. Colonies that do not have the trait will be removed from the gene pool when it is requeened. This of course requires that I have some bees with the right traits to start with. If my gene pool has only "3 day larvae" genes then I can never raise good emergency queens from my existing stock (baring mutation). Make sense? Hope to seem some of you all at EAS. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Requeening to Prevent swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, I have a hive that turned mean on me. I was going to put up with it till late this fall, or even next spring. Last week, I noticed that they were making swarm cells on the bottom of several frames. I decided to order a queen and replace her now. I placed the queen in the hive, and even shook several frames of bees into a weaker hive. Will the new queen, and a reduction in bees stop this swarming behavior? They are not short of room either. Thanks for any input on the subject. Scott " I believe that beekeeping mirrors life. One must endure a few stings to reach the final sweet reward." S. Moser ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:02:17 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Yarrow, Ants, Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hello Gang, In an effort to cut down on quotes in a reply to the Bee-l, I omitted the original thinking that most folks who would be interested in the subject had read the original, not so! Yarrow is and herb, which can be use to repel ants in a bee hive. Pick a few stalks and place the flowered heads under the hive cover. That's all there is to it. I learned this at a local beekeepers meeting featuring a lovely lady with a delightful German accent in her voice. She is a beekeeper as well as an herb grower and practitioner. Grist Mill Apiary Ernie Gregoire Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 07/23/99 19:02:17 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:18:52 -0400 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits In-Reply-To: <199907221952.PAA23144@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 22 Jul 99, at 8:16, Bill Truesdell wrote: > Question- if EC queens are superseded by SC queens are those SC > queens superior and have we just corrected the problem of > inferior EC queens? I wrote up my findings on this some weeks ago. My statement was that grafting (equal to superscedure) from an emergency queen (one that has regression) will not improve nor correct her flaws. We tried on a number of occasions to improve the results of emergency queens when we realised our mistakes for making them in the first place! It was a dismal failure. Regression is regression, end of story. >I don't agree that emergency queens are inferior. I continually >make new queens by the emergency method have been rewarded with >better and better queens. It all gets back to when you make them, >as Allan has said. If the bees make an emergency queen in a major >honey flow or have a supercedure during a dearth- which will >probably be the superior queen? I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. In all the notes taken over the last 8 years emergency queens are poor substitues for quality queens and should NOT be encouraged. It matters not if there is a flow or no flow, lack of feed is not the issue. The problem stems from the break in Royal Jelly at a critical point in the early feeding of the larvae selected, leading to incomplete development. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset Magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:57:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Varroa showing up in spades -- Strategy??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert MacKimmie wrote: > Mites seem to be appearing in spades in a number of my hives. Our nectar > flow can linger into October and I have a maximum of supers on right now. > > Can anyone share their strategy about when and how to deal with varroa when > they show up at this time of year. If I wait until the nectar flow is over > several months from now, will I have any bees left? A few questions first - Where do you live, and when have you last treated with Apistan? What is the extent of the infestation - do you see mites when pulling drone brood, on the bottom boards, or when doing the ether roll - and how many mites are you seeing? Do you see deformed bees crawling around on the ground in the hive vicinity? The answer to your last question, if you have lots of mites as well as deformed bees, is no - the colony will not last into the fall even if it is of extra large size now. You must make the decision on whether to extract what you have in the supers now, put in Apistan or (gasp, Check-Mite) strips, or whether to let them go until the end, extract everything and plan on starting up anew next year with new queens and splits or packages. It is really not an easy decision. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:38:27 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Please read! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Fellows. I am desperatly looking for a person (I dont have the name nor the e-mail address) that 22/6/99 registred my software. The mailserver failed to process the autogenerated message to me, so I don't know where to send the promissed CD-Room with the up to date software. Please . If you are the person in questin. e-mail me direct at this address : it_is_ME@apimo.dk best regards Jorn Johanesson EDBi = multilingual Beekeeping software since 1987 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo (Denmark) http://wn.com.au/apimo (Australia) http://apimo.dk (USA) apimo@post4.tele.dk apimo@wn.com.au Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:14:34 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Butcher Organization: Dundee University Subject: Re: Varroa mites Comments: To: jcbach@yvn.com In-Reply-To: Hi, perhaps (i.e. IMHO, not scientific accepted fact) really you are getting at the question why did arrhenotoky (unfertilised eggs as haploid males, fertilised eggs as diploid females) evolve? For example aside of Hymenoptera, arrhenotoky has stabily evolved from diploid-diploid sex chromosome systems in some seven other occasions including the ambrosia/ scotylid beetles which are highly inbreeding as well. So is the correlation between inbreeding and arrhenotoky real? Pass. However things to think about are, if your ecological niche means that you have to inbreed often or always such as limited foundress colonisation like mites and many hymenoptera, large dispersal distances etc. (1) Under arrhenotoky the exposure of rare recessive lethals is rare and so inbreeding has less of an immediate fitness cost. This may be because each generation you "cleanse" nearly all the recessive lethals through exposure in the haploid male (of course any genes involved only in female behaviour or morphology will not be selected against). thus inbreeding does not expose as many lethals because the genome is purged of them. (2) under this system a lone virgin female foundress is not committed to extinction as long as she lives long enough to mate with her son and then lay the next generation. Standard diplo-diploid virgin females would of course die without reproduction and so could not colonise such niches. there are several other hypotheses, but im not sure the answer is known. Just something to strat you thinking. It has been claimed that the low genetic diversity often reported in Hymenoptera is due to the arrhenotokous system. this isnt substantiated, but doesnt appear to change much between inbreeding and outbreeding Hymenoptera species anyway. A possible case of rare outbreeding is enough? just as rare sex is enough for those thelytokous species perhaps. If so, colonise as a single or limited founfdress number and expand (committed inbreeding but with the above mentioned purging of your gene pool) and then await the rare immigrant with different genes to arrive..the reinforcements if you like, and so you stabilise your position!. By the way, dont get the comparsions between varroa and honey bees genetic diversity clouded. The outbreeding honeybee doesnt have a great deal of genetic diversity either...relative to say a relatively outbreeding Drosophila melanogaster ..but does say compared to an obligatory asexual wasp like Venturia canescens. The question is whether if they have sufficient genetic diversity to cope with changes in their local niches relative to competing species. They both survive at this point in time quiet well, so at present the answer is maybe, as does the drosophila. In another million years, after we are all dead and gone (as a species, not individuals)...who knows. Rob Robert Butcher, Evolutionary and Ecological Entomology Unit, Department of Biological Sciences, Dundee University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Tayside, Scotland, UK. Work Phone:- 01382-344291 (Office), 01382-344756 (Lab). Fax:- 01382-344864 e-mail:- r.d.j.butcher@dundee.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:05:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" Subject: QuickBooks Pro Program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Help needed ! Have subject program installed (1995 edition) on Mac Performa 636CD and have difficulty setting it up to remove honey, containers, caps and labels all from various items of inventory as a result of sales invoices. Does anyone on the list know if this can be done, and if so, how ? Would be most grateful for any help ! Clark Chase III, Zodiac Farms, 907 Horseneck Road, Westport, MA 02790 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Bluedorn Subject: Summary of Trecheal Mite Treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From what I have been reading on this list and in beekeeping books the treatments for tracheal mite infestation are: 1) Tracheal mite resistant honeybee stock breed for grooming behavior. 2) Menthol crystals put into paper bags and left in the hive for a week or more. 3) Patties made from vegetable shorting and powdered sugar left in the hive all year round. 4) Formic acid evaporated in the hive by various methods including a soon-to-be-released gel packet. 5) Essential oils evaporated in the hive or spread on the bees for them to pick up and rub around on each other. 6) Food grade mineral oil dribbled in lines on the frame tops for the bees to pick up and rub around on each other. Are these the major methods for treating tracheal mites, especially the first three? Assuming I have tracheal mites in my apiary but not yet at a dangerous level, which method would most beekeepers recommend I use? I searched the Bee-L archives but I did not find a mention of which of these treatments was most widely used. I am a second year beekeeper with four New World Carniolan hives in good condition in a small hobby apiary. Nathaniel in west central Illinois, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:04:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frederick L. Hollen" Subject: Re: Varroa showing up in spades -- Strategy??? In-Reply-To: <199907241150.HAA04031@listserv.albany.edu>; from "Ted Fischer" at Jul 24, 99 12:57 am Hello, For me, this is not a hard decieion. I would extract now & get the mite treatment in place as soon as possible. Whatever is left of the honey flow can be the bees' winter stores. If the mite problem is handled, the hives will go into winter fat & happy, ready for a good spring buildup, far better than starting out anew with packages from which you are unlikely to get a honey surplus in the first year. If you save these hives they should start out strong next spring -- but then, I'm one of those who hates to let the bees die. . . Fred ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:10:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa mites In-Reply-To: <199907242201.SAA12334@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > By the way, dont get the comparsions between varroa and honey bees > genetic diversity clouded. The outbreeding honeybee doesnt have a > great deal of genetic diversity either...relative to say a relatively > outbreeding Drosophila melanogaster... Interesting. How much genetic diversity is there in honey bees compared to more familiar organisms -- say, mice, humans, trees, etc. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 23:04:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Summary of Trecheal Mite Treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathaniel: I was just in Blooming to give a talk to the Heart of Illinois Beekeepers. Sorry you were not there, or you question would be answered already. Tracheal mites are STILL HERE, in every county in the U. S. Because they are totally invisible without a microscope, they rarely are detected by most beekeepers for two reasons: He does NOT have a microscope, and he does not know how to dissect a worker bee to microscope the trachea. A lot of colonies die in January, and a tremendous number of beeHAVERS tell the world "it was a bad winter, and it killed my bees". If the true is known, the winter did not kill the bees, the tracheal mite did and as usual in January, possibly December or February. I will bet you that your bees have tracheal mites right now, but it generally takes about 2 or even 3 years before the mites kill the colony. Right now, in July, check the bees sitting or walking around on the grass, if you find one that can't seem to fly, get alarmed because that bee can't breathe and is about to die of tracheal mite infestation. THIS IS NOT A POSITIVE DIAGNOSTIC TEST, but it gives you an idea of a direction to get started testing. Scientists of the federal government and many state governments have been extremely eager to find a treatment for both the tracheal mite as well as the Varroa mite for years, and have tested about anything that someone suggested. However, the ONLY POSITIVE treatment for tracheal mites, and it DOES KILL 99% of all the mites WHEN IT IS USED AT THE CORRECT TIME, is MENTHOL! However, menthol is extremely temperature dependent and if not used at the correct time of year, it is useless and does not kill the mites. Western Illinois is about the same latitude as Washington, DC (near my home), and we install menthol on August 15th. In Maryland, if you wait to install menthol into September, forget it, it is too late. Just put 50 grams of menthol on the frame tops of the lowest brood chamber and forget it until you remove the empty bag next spring. Dr. Diana Sammataro has spent the last 10 years using PLAIN grease patties to CONTROL (they will not KILL) tracheal mites. The same as a diabetic can stay alive and function for umpteen years as long as they take a shot of insulin every day, but insulin does not KILL the diabetes pathogen, just controls it. The honey bee scientist will NOT recommend the use of grease patties because they do NOT kill the mites, but they will suggest that we use grease patties all 12 months of the year, even during nectar gathering time, but the replacement of this Crisco and sugar is labor intensive doing it continuously for 12 months. Dr. Nick Carderone, when at Beltsville worked on ESSENTIAL OILS for 10 years, and gave up saying they were NOT RELIABLE. The guy pushing hard on FOOD GRADE MINERAL OIL is a Norfolk Dentist, which is a long way from being a scientist. Shimanuki at Beltsville laughs when FGMO is mentioned favorably, because Beltsville tests were meaningless.. Maybe tomorrow someone will say they had success mixing violets in cow manure and putting this on the bottom board. There are some real nuts out there. I would like to continue talking to you about mites, but I leave in the morning for 10 days of teaching advanced beekeeping at the 1999 EAS meeting in Tennessee. My advice to you is SIMPLE. Remove all your supers by August 15th, and the put 50 grams of menthol on the frame top bars of the lowest brood chamber, and your tracheal mites will be killed for 1999. You can find many of my writings on: http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ click the lower right image or, you can find some of my newest writings, including the long Illinois talk on: http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html Good luck, and let me hear from you sometime. George Imirie EAS Certified Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:53:44 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Wiring Boards... In-Reply-To: <199907250733.DAA24680@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT With a few messages recently re: wiring frames, I've scanned in a few diagrams and created a pages with a description of the basic 'New Zealand' frame wiring methods. You can see it at: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/wiring.htm (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... NZ Bkpg: Products and Services? Email to: prodserv@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:04:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: RASpiek@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Summary of Trecheal Mite Treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George wrote and instructed Nathaniel to remove all supers by Aug 15 And add menthol and leave it all winter. What do you do about the aster and goldenrod flow? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:21:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Summary of Trecheal Mite Treatments In-Reply-To: <199907250734.DAA24686@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A lot of colonies die in > January, and a tremendous number of beeHAVERS tell the world "it was a bad > winter, and it killed my bees". If the true is known, the winter did not > kill the bees, the tracheal mite did... Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding is that few people bother to treat for TM any more and that most North American bees seem to have adjusted to this parasite. I was under the impression that tracheal mite (TM) is not much of a problem any more. FWIW, I have personally *never* treated for TM, although have had TM for many years now in thousands of colonies. We do monitor the levels periodically, as curiosity; otherwise we never think of TM. > However, the ONLY POSITIVE treatment for tracheal mites, and it DOES KILL 99% > of all the mites WHEN IT IS USED AT THE CORRECT TIME, is MENTHOL! In Canada, some beekeepers treat for varroa with formic, and it has a strong effect on TM as well. In fact, it seems to me that it rates about with menthol for efficacy in many environments. I have heard of some using menthol in the past, but am not sure if anyone bothers anymore. > The guy pushing hard on FOOD GRADE MINERAL OIL is a Norfolk Dentist... If this refers to Dr. Rodriguez, AFAIK, he is a veterinarian. There are other advocates of oils for *varroa*, including a number of Europeans (They tend to prefer vegetable oils). One is John Iannuzzi , who said here on Fri, 30 Jan 1998: >>>...I don't used grease patties or menthol, the standard treatments for T-mites. I do use a paper towel saturated with the cheapest veggie oil out there, placed between the two deep brood chambers, 1 sep and a week later. Have been doing this since the appearance of T-mites about ?ten? years ago. My results are the same as or better than those who use the standard treatment, acc/to my inquiries. IT'S ALSO CHEAPER!!! has advocated using paper towels drenched in cheap vegetable oil and placed on the top bars for TM...<<< I personally have no idea whether this works or not, but it does seem to be a fairly popular practice and he gets as good or better results as I get using nothing. > My advice to you is SIMPLE. Remove all your supers by August 15th, and > the put 50 grams of menthol on the frame top bars of the lowest brood > chamber, and your tracheal mites will be killed for 1999. If you did that here, you would also kill an important honey flow and plug up your bees too early. I guess that TM is like many other bee matters. Where you live and other factors may have a huge effect on what works best for you. If TM concerns you, as George indictates, the best place to start is with a microscope to determine if you have a problem. After that, a decision has to be made. If levels are over 10%, then some form of treatment *may* be indictated, but be aware that the treatments are not entirely harmless to the bees. These matters and treatments have been covered here in detail and can be found in the logs. Being pro-active is a good step to help your bees withstand stresses like mites. Be sure they get pollen and nectar or feed supplements and syrup during their active season and good stores for the off-season. Selecting a good location that naturally provides good foraging, as well as shelter from wind without being damp, is one of the best measures you can use to care for your bees. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:45:18 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Summary of Trecheal Mite Treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am nowhere near the expert that George is, but I can only share my experience. I lost all my hives (8 of them) to tracheal mites one winter... just as he described beginning in December and going through February. No fun at all! Since then I have done as he recommended and place a packet of menthol (I buy it prepackaged from Mann Lake) and place it on my hives (here in northern Illinois) in the fall. So far (knock on wood) I am not aware of having lost any more bees to t mites. Contrary to George's advice, I do not take my last supers of until the first part of September and place the menthol on then. It has worked for me. This may be because my hives take direct sun for a good part of the day. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:01:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gary Lewis Subject: Honey Harvest Easy Way??? Hello Bee Folk, I am looking for another way of getting my honey from the frame/comb inti the bottle. I always end up with foundations that are pretty much beat up after getting the honey from them. I only have two hives and the idea of an extractor is nice but more that I can spend for the little honey I get. I will get 25-40 pounds this time around if all goes well. I went into the hives yesterday and found this beautiful almost water clear honey very nice flavor. We have had a long spell of clover here in this area of PA. Not big fields just very large lawns that get cut after the clovers start to brown up. It is cut and back it comes, so I want to keep as much of this as I can and try to save the comb so it can be put directly back once the honey is taken out. I dont have access to another beekeeper with an extractor, the nearest fellow is over 100 miles away, long haul for 40 or so pounds of honey. I have tried de-capping the frames and set them over night in food grade, covered, plastic buckets but it leaves a lot of honey behind. So I usually end up scaping most of the wax and honey into a double sieve with cheese clothe and procees that way. I get my honey but there is little left of the cell stucture. I put the frames back into the hives and the bees will clean the frames and start to draw it out again but there is time lost. I suppose I could use shallows for honey and not the full deeps that I use now. At this time I only have one shallow. So anyone out there that has a few hives and has come up with a better way of getting the honey out without destroying the cells please let me know. Now to a different topic. Pierco snap in foundations. Anyone using them. I have a box of 50 here all black, they are of very rigid plastic and coated with wax. I am going to go over to them as I think they will be better than the foundation I have been using since I started keeping bees, or they started keeping me. I think because the plastic frame is stamped and wax coated it will hold up longer that the "Duragilt". The foundations I am using now "Duragilt, work well but after a time the wax breaks away from the clear plastic base, the foundation is the usless. It holds up well in the brood chambers but for honey collecting it doesn't hold up well with the hand process. While I am here... I either read it hear or saw it in a catalog... That being frames that have only a one or two inch strip of foundation at the top and bottom of the frames. Can anyone comment on this? And for what purpose is this done? I can see that it would give the bees a place to start to draw from and perhaps provide nice comb or chunk honey. Thank you for your time... Gary C. Lewis Duke Center, Pensylvania USA 10 miles away from Bradford Home of the "Zippo" lighter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:52:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/99 7:04:52 PM EST, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: > > How much genetic diversity is there in honey bees compared to more familiar > organisms -- say, mice, humans, trees, etc. > > allen > One might say that the honeybee has bred us well for they thrive where we do. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:59:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Todd Webb Subject: Midnight Hybrid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have not been able to find alot of info. on this hybrid. Can anyone who keeps them or has in the past, give me the Pros and Cons of this bee. Thanks! Todd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:44:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Morris Booton Subject: Re: Midnight Hybrid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a friend that had them last year. They were gentle and produced a lot of honey until late in the fall, when for some reason or the other they superseded the queen. After the supercedure they were very agressive.... You couldn't get withen 20 feet of the hive without a suit on. I also had them some years ago with the same results. I think about all hybreds do about the same. I stay with the Italians or caucasians now. fwiw. MRB Todd Webb wrote: > I have not been able to find alot of info. on this hybrid. Can anyone who > keeps them or has in the past, give me the Pros and Cons of this bee. Thanks! > > Todd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:13:05 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: Goldenrod and Aster MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spiek asked about goldenrod and aster honey flows while the menthol treatment is on the hives. Here, we let the bees harvest all of that fall nectar for their winter honey stores. By doing that I usually get hives weighing 120 to 180 pounds before winter with very low winter hive losses. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Call Sign: W8BEE ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:58:14 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Apistan and/or coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ralston wrote: > > What we *really* need to discover is, essentially, a Varroa mite parasite > that isn't harmful to anything else> ............. > Unfortunately, I don't perceive any great effort being spent in > investigating biological forms of mite control. Biological controls are > generally long-term, high-research-effort solutions. Research along these lines is being carried out at IACR in the UK. See http://www.res.bbsrc.ac.uk John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:25:44 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Midnite hybrid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd Webb asks about Midnite queesn and Morris Booton discusses his experience. Here is mine. Back in the 1960s I used Midnites because they were four way crosses (hybrids) of the Caucasian bee. I used Caucasians successfully for several years because they "were" well matched to the coastal weather of Washington State. They wintered with large clusters while being frugal with winter stores. I've used both Caucasians and Midnites over the years with gradually less success. I've also used what was sold to me as Carniolans and New World Carniolans, and Italians. This spring I purchased a dozen marked Midnites (for $13.50 each) since I hadn't tried them for probably ten years. As previously described on this list, I use two queen colonies from April 15 or so to July 7 to 15th. Then I combine the top queen down after killing the queen from last year in the bottom or parent colony. I put the 12 queens into a queen bank in a western super (the 6th), over a vented bottom board, on top of a five western super hive. The bottom queen is confined into the bottom three westerns with an excluder. The bank was made up of two combs of pollen, two of honey, four combs of emerging brood, six combs of bees, and one empty comb. The 12 queens were fed with Fumidil-B and water for two days to control Nosema before putting them into a space between the four combs of brood. The mustard honey flow was going well. Four days after setting up the queen bank, I went to the apiary to make my top splits. I made my top splits over two days because of the weather. Results: Upon arrival in the apiary I found three of the Midnite queens were dead (9 left) in the queen bank. I bought three California Italian queens to replace them. One Midnite queen in her cage was left in the queen bank as the top split on that colony. Seven days later I checked the top queens. The one in the queen bank was gone and one more in another top colony. I replaced them with two California Italians (7 Midnites left). The next week I checked again on the top splits. The Italian in the queen bank colony was gone (4 left). Only 4 of the 7 Midnites had decent brood patterns. Later I removed some brood from several of the top queens and added it to the bottom colony to prevent swarming of the slowly developing top splits. On the best top queens I added a western super in case I wanted to set them off later as side splits or new colonies. When I put the top queens down the weekend of July 10th the same four Midnite colonies had decent brood patterns. Two parent colonies with queens from 1998 were still doing excellent so I took the top queen from one and added it in place of the queen bank. One top Midnite queen was laying a spotty pattern with worker cell caps raised up similar to drone caps but only 1/3 rd as tall. I killed her and saved the bottom queen (6 Midnites left). I'll probably go out next weekend to check them again when I check on the end of the honey flow and see what they've stored in the brood nests. My 12 Midnites cost me $162.00. I paid $37.50 to replace the ones that disappeared and the one I killed because it wasn't any good. So to have 11 requeened production colonies I paid $18.14 each for queens! (One colony still has its queen from last year.) But fall hasn't come yet. Based on my observations of the bee behavior in the hives I expect to lose two or three more by the time I wrap the hives for winter. Based on the number of western supers of honey on the hives now, only five are producing like I expect of two queen colonies. The rest have varied quality queens whose bees are producing the aberrant behaviors I've discussed previously on this list. The above is the result of Midnite queens from one producer. I hope you're more happy with your results than I am. I've bought queens from 15 different breeders in the last 12 years and lost from 25 to 50 percent each year using the same queen bank and top queen techniques described above. In talking with others who purchased marked queens from my sources over the years I find that their experience is relatively the same as mine though they may use a separate queen bank and make side splits instead of top splits. When using unmarked queens to requeen failing queens in production colonies or making side splits it is fairly reliable to determine the new queen loss rate for the first 30 days or so, but unless they are marked it is impossible to tell whether they have been replaced by fall. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 23:20:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Subject: Re: Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >How much genetic diversity is there in honey bees compared to more familiar >organisms -- say, mice, humans, trees, etc. >allen The amount of genetic diversity is dependent on size and variation of the species population within a . If the population is small but highly diverse, there will be little possibility of inbreeding. Conversely, if the population is small but highly interrelated, there will be considerable inbreeding. And of course, the larger a species population is within an ecosystem, the greater the genetic diversity. An ecosystem of a single hive is not very large, ergo a lot of inbreeding. Minimal number of colonies of bees within a ten mile radius, possibly a lot of inbreeding. How far does a queen go to the mating yard? How many colonies within drone flying distance of that yard? Am I making any sense here? Hope this helps. Mike Stoops A wanna-bee beekeeper Lower Alabama, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:27:47 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: Honey Harvest Easy Way??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I also have only 2 hives. I don't have time nor need for more than that. I don't have a way to save the cell structure when I harvest, but I have an easy way. I set a large sieve on top of my canning kettle, scrape the wax & honey off as well as I can, give the frames & foundation back to the bees, strain the honey through nylon stockings fitted on my canning funnel. I jar all my honey in pint jars for gifts or quart jars for me to use. The wax I put in a metal bucket, melt in the oven on 200º, strain through paper towels into 5# Cottage Cheese containers, which I store until I have enough to bother making candles. The candles make great gifts too. Very primitive, very cheap, very simple. Makes me no money. Gives me much joy. My garden grows great. Everyone thinks I'm either a superhero or a nut for raising bees. I may be a bit of both. Linda in Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:02:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bruce Guidotti Subject: Re: Varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/16/99 10:48:49 AM, LloydSpear@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: << I personally think that some type of a screen to let mites fall and treating just once a year is the way to go. However, I think those that try this and do not have a way to prevent the mites from crawling to where they can catch a bee will be disappointed with the results. >> Lloyd: I have been using a so called varroa trap on my largest hive this year. I have it above the bottom board. One of the disadvantages is that the bees can't clean the bottom board as they would if they had access to it. What about all the debris that collects under the screen on the bottom board. It is kind of tough to scrape out given the bees are really plentiful and it has been hot in the NE this year so the bees usually beard over the entrance most days and nights? It requires waiting for a coolish night, smoking the bearded bees off, removing the block under the trap, scraping without other bees getting under the screen. Beyond that, it is tough to scrape thoroughly. Is decaying matter on the bottom board under the screen a risk to the bees? Seems rather unhygenic to me. Anyone read anything. Have any opinions? Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:02:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bruce Guidotti Subject: Re: Vinegar to retard mold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/6/99 11:56:20 AM, LloydSpear@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: << Tim asks "1. How much of a problem is it if the syrup gets a bit moldy? 2. How much does vinegar extend the life of 1:1 and 2:1 sugar syrup, and does it have any undesirable effects on the bees?" >> I use lemon juice in my syrup. Nice odor. Never have had a problem with mold. About a half lemon per gallon. Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:16:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 24 Jul 1999 to 25 Jul 1999 (#1999-122) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Gary Lewis wrote: While I am here... I either read it hear or saw it in a catalog... That being frames that have only a one or two inch strip of foundation at the top and bottom of the frames. Can anyone comment on this? And for what purpose is this done? I can see that it would give the bees a place to start to draw from and perhaps provide nice comb or chunk honey. Yes, I use these strips in all my hives in order to save on the cost of a whole super or brood frame. One problem I have encountered is : I only wax the top part of the frame - The bees then in turn sometimes do not draw the comb to the bottom of the frame - they leave about 5 mm space. In supers this weakens the comb slightly. During extraction, caution should be applied with these combs or else they would break, especially when they are new. Glen van Niekerk South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:10:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Re: Midnight Hybrid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, On April 16th of this year, I began a colony headed by a Midnight Queen. Last Monday, I requeened that hive because I could stand them no longer. They had superceded the old queen, and were as mean as can be. They would fly out in large numbers, it looked like a swarm boiling out! I could work 9 other hives without a sting, and get 5-10 stings from this one hive. Even before they superceded, I wasn't impressed. They began preparations to swarm in late June. I have tried every hybrid bee out there, and have come to the conclusion that Italians or Carniolans from a reputable breeder are the way to go. Good luck with them if you choose to use them. Scott Moser " I believe that beekeeping mirrors life. One must endure a few stings to reach the final sweet reward." S. Moser ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 04:48:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits, Supercedure queens In-Reply-To: <199907232040.QAA21327@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This may be the core to why there is even a argument. The genetics of the > two sample groups, could be causing the different results for the different > beekeepers... I've been really enjoying this discussion, and am finding the ideas presented to be very thought-provoking. Although we are being presented with what appear to be opposing views, I suspect that all the comments have some validity. If they do not appear at first glance to be compatible, I think that further examination is necessary. Underlying assumptions very much affect the conclusions that different parties reach with the same observations. The goals and locations of the individuals determine the course that seems best for each. I have observed that there seems to be a clear split between the idealists who want perfect queens at all costs and practical folks who make (all) their daily bread directly from their bees. Seems that Murray, Dave Green & I -- and others -- have favourable things to say about emergency queens (They are quick, easy, cheap, and range from passably good to excellent) and have some reservations about the problems associated with buying and installing boxed queens. Each uses cells in addition to, and in preference to, emergency queens or caged queens much of the time. Notably the three named above are all involved in commercial crop pollination. Each explicitly states that he tries to co-operate with the bees to achieve his goals. In contrast, those in the 'purchased queen only' camp -- if I understand correctly -- are to a man, sideliners and people who are willing to do a lot of work, suffer considerable inconvenience, and overlook massive failures of purchased queens to achieve their ideals. To me, there also seems to be attempt at domination over the bees in their approach. I hope I am not misrepresenting anyone's position here and I realise I am leaving out some who have made good contributions to this thread. My apologies, because they have made some good points and, I am sure, will make some more. I'll have more to say on this, particularly in the line between supercedure and emergency, later when I have finished thinking this through and discussing it around our table. I'll also maybe get around to asking the question of why emergency cells drawn on the edge of a piece of cut foundation in one popular and well accepted queen rearing method are okay and the ones the bees raise themselves on the face of the comb are not. Maybe. Maybe I'll also ask if all the grafted queens we buy are not started under the emergency impulse. Even in a 'swarm box'. Maybe. Later allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:25:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "The Burlingames(" | Subject: Re: Summary of Trecheal Mite Treatments | Concern treament of Traecheal Mites. This guy discussed the timing to remove supers and do the methol treatment on the east coast. Would like to hear from beekeepers on the West coast and what kind of timing they have? Also, does it make any difference what kind of menthol is used? As to the crisco and sugar....what is the supposed effect of this on the mites? We had been told that crisco and powdered sugar patties and terramycin should be used to treat bees..but that would be for American Foul Brood. And don't we only need to treat for that in April and September? Lots to learn, Meri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "WM. ARNOLD JONES" Subject: grease cakes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Out of curiosity how many recipes for grease cakes are out there and = does anyone add herbs to them.=20 arnold Jones=20 LaFollette, Tn.=20 423-566-2461 momsthings@jellico.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:51:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Irish Beekeeping Course Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I am just back from an excellent beekeeping course held at Gormanston about 50 km from Dublin. Beekeepers and their families from all over the world attended, including Aaron Morris and John Sturman and their charming partners from the USA. A lot was learned and a lot of information shared during this course, and many new friendships were made and old ones renewed. The Year 2000 course will start on the 4th week in July 2000 i.e. from Monday 24/7/2000 to Saturday 29/7/2000. Why not combine an excellent beekeeping course with a sightseeing holiday in Ireland?. And don't forget to bring the family - they will love it. It looks like as if next year's course will be heavily booked. You could do worse than put it in your diary and call the Course Convener, Mr Michael Woulfe on + 353 21 631011 or write to him at Railway House Midleton Co Cork Ireland You will not be disappointed. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:51:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Managing an Observation Hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have been asked by my Association to manage a 3 frame observation hive at our stand at the Dublin Horse Show early next month. The location of our stand will be too far from the outside to allow us to set up an arrangement to allow the bees to fly, hence they will have to be imprisoned for 5 days. Will this cause a serious problem for the bees, will I need to ensure that they have a supply of water etc?. Any help especially from correspondents with a similar experience will be much appreciated. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Goldenrod and Aster MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I once let the bees overwinter with fall honey but no longer. If you are in a warm climate where the bees can get winter cleansing flights, no problem, but in Maine you can end up with dysentary. Fall honeys, in general, have more solids that the bees have to void. Plus, some tend to ferment more easily, especially honeydew which seems to show up in the late summer and fall. And they crystalize at the drop of a hat. All of my fall honey is solid by December while my summer honey has stayed liquid for several years. Why subject the bees to that? Plus why let the bees have the best honey of the year? I did not come up with this on my own, but follow George Imire and Tony Jadczak's teaching and practice, which is to pull honey in late July and put the empties back on over the inner cover. Bees clean out the summer honey and put it down and fill the deeps with summer honey, The later fall honey goes into the supers over the inner cover. Using this technique, my winter losses have dropped to near zero. I get more honey than I did when I overwintered on fall honey because the bees are exceptionally healthy coming out of winter. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:56:24 -0400 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Honey Harvest Easy Way??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gary: >............So I usually end up scaping most of the wax and > honey into a double sieve with cheese clothe and procees that > way. I get my honey but there is little left of the cell > stucture. You could go to producing comb honey, but of course that does not deal with "little left of the cell structure" problem. That is if you like comb honey. A lot of folks like getting a holiday gift of comb honey. Also, if you sell any honey, you can get a giher price for boxed comb honey. Just a thought ................ Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:46:42 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Haberl Organization: Hessische Landesanstalt fuer Tierzucht Subject: New Home Page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear All, I am pleased to announce to official Home Page for the Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Institute für Bienenforschung e.V. (Society of the German Bee Research Institutes). http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~ag-biene/ The English version of the Pages still needs some work and is, therefore, only accessible in part. -- Michael Haberl Hessische Landesanstalt fuer Tierzucht, Abt. Bienenzucht Erlenstr. 9, 35274 Kirchhain, Germany Tel: ++49 6422 9406-12; Fax: -33 haberl@mailer.uni-marburg.de ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Emergency Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been reading, and in some cases rereading, all the comments on emergency queens. I really don't have anything new to add but some questions. I guess I am missing something here but where is the connection between a poor, weak, queen and genetic inferiority? For the sake of argument we will say an emergency queen is poor because of the way she was raised, however she still manages to successfully mate and begin laying fertilized eggs. How would the offspring from these eggs differ had she been well nourished? In other words, if we took one of those fertilized eggs and raised it under optimal conditions wouldn't a good queen result? If the answer is yes, then I would think that a poor emergency queen could be superceded resulting in a good queen. If the answer is no, then why not? Are we saying that poor nutrition causes a genetic mutation? I can see that possibly by the time the supercedure queen is being raised there may not be enough young nurse bees left to do a proper job which may result in another poor queen, but this is not because of genetics. I would also think that a poorly raised queen may never successfully mate thus rendering the colony queenless. One of the first recommendations for a new beekeeper is to start two colonies. There are a number of reasons for this but one was if something happened to one of your queens you would have a source (eggs) to keep that colony going and allow the bees to raise a new one. This may be just folklore but I think it is done successfully enough times to be true. I guess I am having trouble accepting the fact that all emergency queens are bad just because they are emergency queens. I have split a number of strong colonies over the years with good results. FWIW, I am also seeing a lot of newly purchased queens being superceded after they have been accepted and are laying well. I really can't explain that one. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:53:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kai-M. Engfer" Subject: German Beekeeping Homepage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Dear all, if You want to inform Yourself about the Dark European, or the Cape, or even the Scutellata Honeybees in Germany, so please note this address: http://insel.heim.at/mainau/330017/ Kai-M. Engfer, Tel. 04347-8861 \| Ostlandstr. 1, http://insel.heim.at/mainau/330017 -|||8< D-24247 Mielkendorf /| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:37:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Fume Boards In-Reply-To: <199906291130.HAA11966@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you use a blower you have to pick up > the supers two times and I sure do not like that. We sometimes just tip a super on a corner on top of the hive as we pry it off and blow it out right there. One lift. We also sometimes just blow down into the hive and then lift the box off. One lift. (will not work in the box above the excluder and should not be done on a cool day). allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:24:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Emergency Queens In-Reply-To: <199907262116.RAA02502@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have been reading, and in some cases rereading, all the comments on > emergency queens. So have I. Over and over. Great topic with many viewpoints. Makes one think. > I guess I am missing something here but where is the connection > between a poor, weak, queen and genetic inferiority? For the sake of > argument we will say an emergency queen is poor because of the way she was > raised, however she still manages to successfully mate and begin laying > fertilized eggs. How would the offspring from these eggs differ had she been > well nourished? In other words, if we took one of those fertilized eggs and > raised it under optimal conditions wouldn't a good queen result? That is what I assume and believe, but the question we must ask is this: "Do queens all lay eggs that are of equal weight and quality, or do small weak queens lay smaller, weaker eggs?" If so, then we also need to ask this: "Do superior queens that are on the verge of starvation lay inferior eggs?" And we must remember that in advance of swarming bees tend to reduce the feed to the queen, so: "Are swarm queens therefore inferior?" and "If there are inferior eggs, do they result in inferior offspring even if the larvae are well fed?" I can see how it can be reasonably hypothesized that the offspring of poorly fed mothers can be nutritionally deprived also, and that it is not necessary for the genetics to be changed. It's the old phenotype/genotype problem. You would think that such hypothetical malutrition effects would go away after a generation or two... wouldn't you? The genetics shouldn't change. > If the > answer is yes, then I would think that a poor emergency queen could be > superceded resulting in a good queen. I think so too. > If the answer is no, then why not? > Are we saying that poor nutrition causes a genetic mutation? If there is any truth to the assertations some have made, apparently on the basis of observation, the explanation I gave above is the only credible argument I can imagine at this point. > I guess I am having trouble accepting the fact that all emergency queens are > bad just because they are emergency queens. I have split a number of strong > colonies over the years with good results. FWIW, I am also seeing a lot of > newly purchased queens being superceded after they have been accepted and > are laying well. I really can't explain that one. Same here. My thesis is that you can get good and bad queens by any method. James Bach's tale of woe in regards the Midnites sure struck home here. I really hurt for him when I read of his tribulations. There were many sad beekeepers heavily out of pocket this spring due to failure of many reputable suppliers to make queens that the bees would accept and keep, and which would perform well. I personally did a bit of each method and had * bad losses in the mated queens purchased, * moderate and unpredictable failures in the grafted cells we introduced and * apparently good results from the emergency queens. All the queens -- regardless of source -- took a week longer than usual to get going. Go figure... As Pooh (an expert on bees) said, "You never can tell about bees". allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:07:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re Observation Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom from Dublin asks about 'imprisoning' bees in an observation hive for 5 days. I would suggest it is too long. In about 3 weeks will be taking a 3 - frame Commercial (16 x 10 frames) observation hive to the Shrewsbury Flower Show where they will be restricted from flying for three days. Have done the same for about three years and consider they have suffered enough by the end of the third day. I understand that the show organisers INSIST that water is fed throughout the period. Depending upon the heat in the marquee governs the number of dead bees falling to the base and one year, before the public arrived, sucked them out with a vacuum cleaner. Is it possible for Tom to allow them flight after the show closes, maybe means he would have to remain on site, but would have that delicious black nectar they call Guinness to keep him company. Shrewsbury Flower Show. As Stewarding Secretary for the Bees and Wine Section of this prestigious UK event, held on Friday, 13 and Saturday, 14 August may I take this opportunity to invite beekeepers, from throughout the world if you happen to be in the area, to give me a minimum of two hours of your time to chat to an audience of 80,000 about honey bees and products of the hive. In return I will arrange your FREE admission, so the hourly rate of pay is pretty low (about £9 admission), but its great fun. Ken Hoare bees@kenlia.enta.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:08:40 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Genetic diversity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How does one measure genetic diversity, in layman's terms? How different are the genetic lines of U.S. honey bees? How much genetic diversity is desirable in the U.S. honey bee population? How will we know that we have attained the desired diversity? One carrot breeder in Idaho has 2,000 genetic lines of carrots from which he selects four lines annually for development and testing. Dr. Sheppard determined that there are about 400 genetic lines of bees in the U.S. How many genetic lines of honey bees do we need in the U.S to maintain or guarantee a desirable amount of genetic diversity? I hope several persons who have genetics education are listening and will take the time to reply for our benefit. Thanks, James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul S LeRoy Subject: Screens on bottom boards Comments: cc: wwfarm@WCTEL.NET MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In a message dated 26 July 99 Bruce Guidatti asked LLyod about varroa traps-- My immediate concern here in the Southern US would be about creating a habitat for wax moths under the screen in the debris where bees cannot get to them to destroy the larvae. It has been my experience that wax moths can squeeze throug, under and otherwise gain entry to places we normally think they cant penetrate. We are using a more simple method of trapping varroa that fall and at the same time helping to control trachael mites. This regimen has been followed on 24 colonies and none were lost last fall, winter or this spring and all are producing as well as could be expected considering the erratic flows we have had so far this year. We have requeened some colonies on schedule and others due to poor brood patterns, drone laying etc but no more than normally expected. We mix melted beeswax and food grade mineral oil or regular cooking oil to a consistency of warm butter or margerine, just thick enough so that it will not run if applied on a vertical surface but will spread evenly with a stiff bristle paint brush(we call it "glop" for lack of a better name). We spread it evenly on something simular to a sticky board(stiff paper, sheetmetal, thin plywood or paneling etc). Dont apply it so thick that a bee cannot walk in it and they will still clean out the larger particles of debris and at the same time get some of the oil on themselves. The "glop" immobilizes the dropped varroa and eventually kill them and the oil on the bees seems to control the trachael mite. After about 2 weeks or whenever most of the "glop" has been worn off,we remove the board or paper or whatever we use and inspect to see what has been collected, make sure nothing has accumulated underneath it and reapply the "glop" and reinstall. Length of time between reapplication is adjusted by the amount and content of the debris collected. The board or whatever can be removed and reinserted with minimum effort, time, and disturbance to the ladies if done at the proper time with a little care and there is usually no need for scraping the bottom board etc. This regimen is not very scientific but seems to work well to keep the mites under control. We also use mineral oil on a paper towel on the top bars of the brood frames in times when we expect larger populations of varroa or when we see evidence of their presence. We have not used Apistan or the "DEADLY WHITE STRIPS" in two years and get a premium for the honey harvested as a result. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:09:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Splits, Supercedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > > This may be the core to why there is even a argument. The genetics of the > > two sample groups, could be causing the different results for the different > > beekeepers... > > In contrast, those in the 'purchased queen only' camp -- if I understand > correctly -- are to a man, sideliners and people who are willing to do a lot of > work, suffer considerable inconvenience, and overlook massive failures of > purchased queens to achieve their ideals. To me, there also seems to be attempt > at domination over the bees in their approach. I suspect location may have a role to play. I am not interested in "dominating" my bees just learning to work with them. I am strictly a hobbiest so I can afford the time to play as I learn. I have several times removed a queen and, since I read that bees when rearing emergency queens will use older larvae, I have gone back in after 4 days and removed all capped cells. Then no larvae over 24 hours old has a chance. I always find capped cells on the 4th day. This suggests that larvae older than 24 hours were used. That is in the Anchorage, Alaska area. FWIW Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:40:38 -0400 Reply-To: Garry Libby Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Midnight Hybrid Hello Everyone, I had a very good experience with Midnite bees. Last year a guy in work asked Me to help Him start a hive(a task I will never do again unless they go to bee school). He ordered Midnite bees and starting from a three LB package on April 20th, got three full supers by mid-August. I'm sure He would have gotten more had He known what He was doing. Those bees were very gentle. I checked His hive with Him approximately six times last year without a veil or gloves and neither of Us was stung once. This past February this same Guy attended Beeschool along with His cousin. They made a split from the original hive taking four frames of brood(medium) and two of honey. The original hive is doing great, We did an inspection of His hive from top to bottom, again with no veil or gloves and again neither of us was stung. Just proving once again that You can have a mean and nasty hive from ANY race or hybrid of bees. Midnite bees were developed for Hobbyists to be gentle and produce a good amount of honey. I opened a school hive of Italian bees today, just to peek at the top super. I was harassed by over fifty harasser bees, bouncing off My veil and buzzing like crazy, they stopped and went away as soon as I left the immediate area and checked another hive. Does that mean Italian bees are harassers? NO. Garry Libby Attleboro, MA U.S.A. Still in draught conditions ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Emergency Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron said it better than I did, concerning the supercedure of emergency queens asking why should they be poor queens. I have heard no good reason. I am coming to the conclusion that those who think emergency queens are inferior go by the book and what the book says. And if you look at the case that the books deal with, then I tend to agree that emergency queens will be of lesser quality than superceeded queens. In the book there is no outside interference or control. The books deal simply with a failing queen that the bees superceed or the sudden loss of a queen leading to an emergency queen. In the supersedure case, the bees have control and there will be eggs or young larva so the created queen will be half decent. In the sudden loss of a queen, depending on the time of year, the bees may not have as many options. But put the beekeeper into the equation as the intentional maker of the emergency queen, and the emergency queen should be much better than a supercedure. For example, I wait for a strong honey flow in spring, usually dandilion or clover. The hive is strong. The queen is laying well with lots of eggs and young larva. I put the emergency hive over the laying queen hive so they are warm. And I make sure the emergency hive has loads of bees. I repeat my observation that my queens are excellent. Once and a while I get a dud, but I had more problems with store bought queens than my emergency queens. Two years ago, I had one weak queen and figured its hive would die over the winter. Came through fine and finally gave the hive to a friend who lost all his hives regularly over the winter. When I last checked, my hive was still going strong, all from "inferior" emergency queens. I am a hobby beekeeper, not commercial, who relys on emergency queens alone. I have not bought a queen in six years and have only been keeping bees for eight years. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:53:02 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Haberl Organization: Hessische Landesanstalt fuer Tierzucht Subject: Re: Genetic diversity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Genetic diversity is a quite complex topic. I find all the questions James Bach posed very interesting, but I would doubt that anybody can answer them in exhausting detail without involving speculation at some point - at least nowadays (with exception of the first question). I will try to give you my point of view why these questions can not be answered in a straightforward way. > How does one measure genetic diversity, in layman's terms? There are several ways (levels) to measure genetic diversity (GD). The most detailed way is to look at the DNA sequence, i.e. nucleotide diversity. Nucleotide diversity is defined as the average proportion of nucleotide differences between all possible pairs of sequences in the sample. Let say we have 3 bees with a region of a DNA sequence reading: 1 2 NUCLEOTIDE # 123 456 789 012 345 678 90 bee 1: CAC TGC TAG CGA TCG TAC CT bee 2: CAC TGC TAG TGG TCG TAG CT bee 3: CAC TGC TAG TGA TCG TAT CT * * * (use e.g. Courier font to few) These 3 sequences with 20 nucleotides (letters) each differ at three positions (see *). There are n(n-1)/2 pairwise comparisons, here, n=3, so there are 3 pairwise comparisons (bees 1-2, 1-3, 2-3). The number of pairwise differences is 2 for site 10 and 12, and 3 for site 18. So, the nucleotide diversity (nd) is nd = (2*2 + 1*3 + 17*0)/(3*20) = 0.11667 (Maximum would be: nd = (3*20)/(3*20) = 1) Important point: - GD depends on the number of sequences (individuals) compared Nowadays, there is not enough sequence information available for the honey bee genome as well as for a really good sample of bees. AND: What individuals would you count in bees? Well, one should only count the reproductives i.e. queens and drones. But how many drones do you count? How many of them will really mate i.e. contribute their genes to the next generation? What about laying workers producing drones? What about mating frequencies, mating distances, ... Which bees belong to the same population? Another critical point in the measurement of GD might be whether and how you weight the different types of DNA sequences, i.e. coding genes and non-coding sequences. Usually there is much more variation in non-coding sequences. And some organsims have few, and some very many non-coding sequences. Other levels of measuring GD include fragment length polymorphisms of DNA sequences (detected with e.g. PCR), allozyme electrophoresis, aso. These are not so laborious and costly, but they more inaccurate in a that they do not detect all differences and may overestimate others. These polymorphisms are typically measured in the degree of heterozygosity, which is (about) the proportion of diploid individuals that have two different alleles. E.g. in a survey of 104 genes in a sample including all major human races yielded estimates of heterozygositiy of 0.06. Note that this heavily depends on the genes investigated! The highest average heterozygosities so far have been found in drosophila (fruit flies) with 0.9 - 0.19. > Dr. Sheppard determined that there are about 400 genetic lines of bees Number depends on where you set your cut off limits for 'different'. > How many genetic lines of honey bees do we need in the U.S to maintain or > guarantee a desirable amount of genetic diversity? Who knows? Depends on what our environment will ask for. It certainly is reasonable to assume that reduced GD has negative effects in the long term. But I never have seen a scientific study so far where it has been claimed that e.g. below nd = 0.00001 a population dies. There are many more factors involved. Again, we need to know a lot of other things before we might be able to answer these GD questions. -- Michael Haberl haberl@mailer.uni-marburg.de ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:15:00 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Managing an Observation Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom > I have been asked by my Association to manage a 3 frame observation hive > The location of our stand will be too far from the outside to allow us to > set up an arrangement to allow the bees to fly, hence they will have to be > imprisoned for 5 days. > > Will this cause a serious problem for the bees, will I need to ensure that > they have a supply of water etc?. Thornes have a new design of observation hive - a 5-frame nuc-box with a glass-sided box which clips on top to take a single brood frame, which can be brought up from below complete with queen. A piece of queen excluder keeps her on view. The whole arrangement is very stable when placed on a table for display. This arrangement was used for the 4 days of the Welsh National Honey Show, again without allowing the bees to fly. However, the whole hive was taken away each evening at about 7pm and the bees allowed to fly for a couple of hours until dark. I guess if the weather was bad, then opening the hive for ventilation would have been sufficient. I would be unhappy to keep the conventional 3-frame observation hive sealed for 5 days in warm weather, but this system seemed to work well. Hope this helps, John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:38:03 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Vinegar to retard mold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Tim asks "1. How much of a problem is it if the syrup gets a bit moldy? Make up a stock solution of 50g thymol in 250 ml alcohol. Add 2 teaspoonfuls of this to each gallon of syrup to prevent moulds. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:26:44 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Weinert Subject: Western Supers and Dadant boxes Comments: To: bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Could some one tell me the dimensions of Western Supers, They are not a name that I am familikar with in Australia. Also I was reading about the Dadant system the other day. The boxes are much larger and the authors claim much more success than langstroths. Are they used much or have they gone out of favour because of their size? Thanks Andrew Weinert 2 Purslowe st Mt. Hawthorn WA 6016 08 9443 1463 aweinert@tpgi.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:59:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Worker Movement of Eggs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, I was wondering if anyone out there could give me some insight into something I found today in one of my hives. I have a queen in a hive that quit laying three weeks ago. I foolishly thought the hive was queenless because I could not find a single egg anywhere in the hive. I ordered and placed a new queen in the hive last Monday. I checked two days later, and found the new queen dead on the bottom board. On one of the next frames I pulled, there was the old queen. I ordered a new queen again, and this past Friday, I searched the hive and caged the old queen. Still no eggs. The new queen arrived yesterday, and I removed the old, and later, placed the new queen, in the hive with both corks in. I checked the hive today, removed the cork on the candy end, and checked the frames just to be sure there were no replacement cells. I went frame by frame, and checked for eggs, none could be found. I found a queen cup on the bottom edge of one of the frames, and inside it I found a single egg! Question is, where did one single egg come from? Would the replacement queen pass an egg through the screen of her cage, and a worker bee place the egg? Is it possible that one egg was laid by the queen that was killed and the bees moved it to the queen cup? I don't think if a queen were running around the hive, she would lay just one egg. Any possible explanations out there? I found it to be a little perplexing! Thanks all, Scott Moser ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:33:13 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Guidotti:- > One of the disadvantages is that the bees can't clean the bottom board as > they would if they had access to it. > It is kind of tough to scrape out given the bees are really plentiful and it > has been hot in the NE this year so the bees usually beard over the entrance > most days and nights? Reverse the bottom board. Place over it a frame with the screen, with a new entrance built in the frame facing forwards. Then you can scrape debris out from the rear of the hive no matter how many bees are on the front. You can also insert a tray from the rear to catch the debris, and grease it to retain live mites if you wish. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:58:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David & Sarah Grew-Foss Subject: Varroa Testing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here is a question: At a local beekeepers meeting I mentioned that George Imirie suggests testing for varroa every july by using Apistan strips for two days and a sticky board to catch the fallen. (See Mintite Bee website for exact details the address is www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/contentpages/articles.html) . One of the club members got really upset about this idea saying that this practice would encourage varroa resistance to apistan. I have two colonies I started from feral swarms in June and while apparently healthy they are not building up as quickly as I thought they should, yes I am/have been feeding them. I see no signs of varroa, drones appear normal, no deformed wings... but I am also not terribly experienced and so I am considering testing. What do all of you think? Do you test for varroa or just treat in the fall? Would this method of testing encourage resistance? Thank you for your humble opinons. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: Charles Harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Harper Subject: Missouri bound - looking for beekeepers! In-Reply-To: <199905252151.RAA15397@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We're headed for Lake of the Ozarks in MO for vacation this year. If you live in this area, please reply as I would like to visit some beekeepers in the area while there. I'm now in my last week of extraction. Two yards to go! Charles Harper Harper's Honey farm Carencro LA. 900+ Hives ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:48:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Guidotti:- One of the disadvantages is that the bees can't clean the bottom board as > they would if they had access to it. > It is kind of tough to scrape out given the bees are really plentiful and it > has been hot in the NE this year so the bees usually beard over the entrance > most days and nights? This season, after reading comments in these pages, have returned to a system I tested a few years back - Open Mesh Floors. In these pages it was being advocated as a method of varroa control, the mites falling through the mesh onto the ground below the hive. Have only used half the hives (four) in the home apiary in order to compare differences but it appears to be working. Bruce mentions a beard forming over the front of the hive, well even in our temperate UK climate that was also happening to the strongest of the four, until the open mesh floor was used. Now even on our occasional hot days they are all very content to stay within the box. Obviously no debris forms on the floor, hence no cleaning or wax moth problems. I will leave my mesh floors in position throughout the winter, my previous experience was that my bees enjoyed the added ventilation, less condensation. I am not advocating Open Mesh Floors as the only method of varroa control, in fact will be inserting Bayvarol or Apistan strips very shortly, but from literature I read some years ago one mite can multiply 1000 times in twelve months so every one that takes 'the big drop' through my floors could reduce the problems for my bees. I still need stewards for the Shrewsbury Flower Show on 13/14 August - contact direct. Ken Hoare bees@kenlia.enta.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:49:30 -0600 Reply-To: amontgomery@visi.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Montgomery Organization: Al's Bees Subject: AFB? Comments: To: bee-l@uacsc2.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need help? I have two hives that were nucs earlier in late June with two new queens. One has lost the queen and many of the bees. There were signs of laying workers. The other still has its queen population low. The brood has some chalkbrood, and what appers to be dead larva in coiled and some standing verical in the cell. Other signs are the snotty consistency of some darker capped brood. Can I save the queen that remains if I start treating with TM? I would like to use her in another hive that is due for requeening. I have called our bee inspector but he is away until thursday. I am prepared to burn comb and scorch hive walls and bottom and inner covers if indeed this is AFB. I can email a picture of comb have digital camera if anyone is confident about diagnosing? Please give me your best advice. sincerely, Alan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:18:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Blowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just cobbled together a blower for clearing supers and I am wondering what is reasonable to expect. Of five supers maybe a total of 50-100 bees remain is this about normal? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:38:14 -0400 Reply-To: benwagg@concentric.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ben Waggoner Subject: Bee keepers in Guatemala, Central America Comments: To: BEE-L Bee List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am seeking a source for bees and beekeeping supplies in or near Guatemala City, Guatemala, Central America. Can anyone put me in touch with a beekeeper(s) and/or equipment seller there? I would appreciate any information you can share, either English or Spanish. Ben Waggoner, (Tampa Bay area), Florida, USA benwagg@concentric.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:58 -0500 Reply-To: lithar@midwest.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Re varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Bruce Guidotti wrote:- > it > > has been hot in the NE this year so the bees usually beard over the > entrance > > most days and nights? Ken Hoare wrote: > > This season, after reading comments in these pages, have returned to a > system I tested a few years back - Open Mesh Floors. > > > Ken Hoare > bees@kenlia.enta.net What size/type mesh material do you use? Your comments come at a time when I'm considering something to aid in ventilation. My bottom boards are designed with large integrated landing boards (sort of along the DE hive design) and on these hot (98deg) the bees prefer that to hanging on the front of the hive - so much so they seem to be plugging the entrance. This would seem to make ventilation even more difficult. I found the following site interesting from the standpoint of ventilation and mite control http://www.apiculture.com/plateau-anti-varroas/index_us.htm#top Offhand I don't see that the tube design has any great advantage over a mesh material. When using the open mesh floors do you use some sort of ground cover under the hive as a moisture/weed barrier? AL