From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:26 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27377 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11145 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11145@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:20 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9908D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 179255 Lines: 4015 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:10:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: OOPS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Med that was stuck to bottom drops, turns upside down in the dirt, and > generally panics entire hive. > - If nobody's bleeding, don't sweat it. In 35 years at Ye Old BeeLab, I couldn't even count the roughage I have added to hives this way. > > Will they requeen and survive the winter? (Assuming she was > in that pile of dead dirty bees) Very probably - leave them alone for a few days, and then go in and pick out the rocks. > Do I look at the hive in a week or so > to see if there is any egglaying? Yes, but be careful to watch for queen cells when you pull out the frames. > Do I take up Golf? Only if you're not getting enough exercise. > > > It is a lot harder than it looks.... > > Thanks > Mark Mark, if it was easy, anybody could do it. But if your brain cells need stretching, take up beekeeping ;-) John Edwards, Tucson BeeLab ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:56:38 -0500 Reply-To: lithar@midwest.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Pheromones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > > I set up several bait hives this year, some with pheromone lures and some > without. The only success was without, but with smelly old brood comb. Most > years I get a stray swarm in the stack of supers in my shed. My view is that > the pheromone lures are in their infancy. Try them from time to time but > compare their performance with old comb. They may get a better formula > eventually but at present there seems to be a missing ingredient. I've built up my small apiary with swarms caught in "traps" using the phermone lures. I have not tried with old brood instead of phermone but would expect success with that as well. What I consider to be the real secret to my success is timing. I place my traps in persimmon groves about two weeks before Memorial Day (USA), and by the end of May, or the first of June, I have bees. It has worked two years in a row and I'd almost bet a paycheck I can pull it off again next year - almost. AL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:24:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "WM. ARNOLD JONES" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have two hives that have been robbed completely of all honey. = Looking for some ideas on getting them through the winter. arnold jones momsthings@jellico.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 07:33:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "J.F. Hensler" Subject: Re: Pheromones Chris Slade wrote: ---------- Yo Chris: How do you manage to keep the wax moths out of the old brood comb while it is sitting out unprotected? Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, Wash. http://www.povn.com/rock ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:05:54 -0700 Reply-To: pyramid@epix.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pyramid Subject: Pheromones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is my third year of extensive use of bait hives, all of which are five frame boxes placed in trees. At all times, I used deep frames, one or more of which was used, the rest being undrawn foundation. This year only, I used pheromone lures, both to try them out and also because used frames were in short supply (all my hives wintered successfully). At this point, these are my observations: When the bait hive contained a brood frame with residual honey, there was extensive early interest as the honey was robbed. But after the honey was gone, there was constant interest in the hive the rest of the year. When the hive contained a brood frame with no honey and a pheromone lure, there was quick interest but it dissipated within days and, for the remainder of the season, there has been no interest in these hives. Of the five bait hives I have up this year, all with pheromones, the only swarms taken were in the two boxes that contained a frame with residual honey. This is much less success than in previous years. Burns (Pennsylvania) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:18:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: Bee genetics In-Reply-To: CSlade777@AOL.COM's message of Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:07:05 EDT Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) CHRIS; I thought that you had a ramdon selection of Chromosomes from the queen instead of a ramdom selecton of genes. I may have it wrong , I forgot that there was no Y cromosome. It is very hard to figure out what makes a male geneticly if there is no X OR Y cromosome. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:02:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bobbi and David Organization: Longmeadow Farm Subject: Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am curious to find out if anyone has explored the use of Desiccants (the FDA approved type) in order to reduce the moisture content in the hive? It seems it would be an inexpensive (about $1.00 per gram) way to do so. 2 grams protects 1.67 cu. ft. Any pros or cons to its use? Dave Auburn, NH ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:15:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: robbedout MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "WM. ARNOLD JONES" wrote: > I have two hives that have been robbed completely of all honey. = > Looking for some ideas on getting them through the winter. Depends on your climate, and could be something else is going on .... disease, mites, ... Try to get some honey in frames, or start feeding 30 percent sugar syrup. Combined, they may have a better chance of making it to spring. Otherwise, combine them into your other colonies, if these aren't your only 2. If so, clean up the equipment and store in a bag with moth balls in an outside shed (and hope the mice don't find them). John Edwards, Tucson BeeLab, USDA "Spring always comes" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:17:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Francois Lariviere Subject: Re: 10-hydroxy-2-decenoic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/20/99, 2:31:03 PM, BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: <> This is the ingredient found in Royal Jelly. Referred to as 10-HDA, it is a measure of the quality of the Royal Jelly, which is about 2% per volume. Perhaps Dr. Stangaciu of Romania can elaborate further. Jean-Francois Lariviere BeeHealthy Farms, Inc. NYC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:28:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gusrow@AOL.COM Subject: WASPS Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there anyone on the list that can help my friend in northern Ca.? He has already lost 4 hives to wasps and has not been able to get any real help. This is the start of his business. You can either contact Brian at bjhensel@pacific.net or my self at Gusrow@aol.com I have them around my hives as well, but not as bad as he has. I am located in the West mesa of Abq. NM. Please help if you can. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:25:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Sullivan Subject: Queen problems in observation hive - Addendum Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to mention this in my original post. My observation hive in in the San Francisco Bay Area in California and my main hive is in the California Sierra foothills. Thanks Michael Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 11:34:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Cut comb honey In-Reply-To: <199908211719.NAA04045@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I talk to a lot of comb honey producers and wavy cut-comb foundation is a > prime concern to all. Something I learned from a Japanese customer: They buy standard frames that are cross wired normally, but do not have vertical wires. When they are ready to cut the comb they remove the wires by applying elecric current at each end of a cross wire using a battery or transformer. The wire quickly gets hot and is released from the wax. It can then be cut with side-cutters and pulled out through the end bar. And... FWIW, you don't need to always cut frames up to sell comb. We have often selected newly drawn standard frames complete with wires, and which are white and capped, and sold them both at our door and at farmers markets. They go for a good price. We even will take the frame and foundation back for a credit after the customer has scraped off the honey, leaving the midrib & wires, and return it to the bees to build again. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:00:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: OOPS! In-Reply-To: <199908212038.QAA06407@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > second Med that was stuck to bottom drops, turns upside down > in the dirt, and generally panics entire hive. Now, I suspect > that the queen was in this Medium. I have lots of dead, injured > and dirty bees in the dust. I am unhappy, the bees even more so. > I continue to pick up the mess, No frames fell completely out of the > medium, but it got really dirty... > What next? Will they requeen and survive the winter?... > It is a lot harder than it looks.... Yup, it sometimes is. Often with no warning. If it's any consolation, we drop lots of hives every year. Now and then we have even had one fall off a moving truck. It's hard on equipment, but usually turns out okay for the bees. If you set everything back together as best you can and leave them to repair the mess, you will usually find that when you return in a day or two, things are looking much better. Once they have repaired the broken comb and removed the dirt, and settled down, you are in a position to do a little work to correct spacing and remove any badly damaged frames that are not in an important place like the centre of the brood are. You'll know in a few days if you hurt the queen, but usually she is okay. If not, given good weather, you will likely have a new queen laying within three weeks, assuming you do not destroy or dent any queen cells in your inspection, and that should not be too late for most regions. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 21:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "WM. ARNOLD JONES" Subject: robbed Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have two hives that have been robbed of the last drop of honey by = other hives. I can only move them a few hundred feet would moving be = worth the effort and inside feeders save them from this winters = starving?? arnold jones momsthings@jellico.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:41:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <199908221431.KAA20690@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have two hives that have been robbed completely of all honey. > Looking for some ideas on getting them through the winter. You don't say where you are, so any advice is likely to be pretty general, but here goes... Hives that have been deprived of stores at any time during mid-season are very likely to fail during winter because they will have suffered a severe setback. By the time you notice that they are completely out of food, they will have depleted their own bodies of reserves and also ceased brood rearing. Often any existing brood will be torn out and/or canibalized. By then it is too late for the bees that are currently alive. Your best hope is that they can replace themselves with sufficient numbers of well fed young bees before winter, and that can be tough when coming from behind with no stores of honey or pollen. If there is good bloom around and you are able to feed them both sugar and protein, and if you have at least six weeks until first frost (assuming you have frost), you do have a chance. As always, this list is not the place to get the help you need. You need to contact an experienced local beekeeper to see if you need to combine the colonies and also learn why things came to this pass in the first place. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:34:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen DeHond Subject: Exraction time: Terramyacin Comments: cc: Charles & Joyce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, Am just finishing my first season and am receiving conflicting advice from my mentors so thought I'd pick your collective brains. 1. One mentor wants to harvest about Labor Day, this is in upstate NY, frost hits about 9/29 most years. I'm inclined to think we could wait a couple of weeks. 2. The other mentor says NEVER use Terramyacin. If foul brood is present it won't work and otherwise it weakens the bees resistance. ??? 3. Once the honey supers are removed, what keeps the bees from feeling crowded and starting to swarm? 4. When should I winterize the hives? 5. Of 11 hives 2 aren't too big, my thought is to leave them alone and see what spring brings, any ideas? 6. Have been told to put apistan (2 strips/hive body) in when I close the hives along with menthol (1 pkg/body) and not to treat in spring. Does this sound ok? Hope I haven't asked too many questions but am getting confused. Thanks to all and great luck with your honey harvests. Karen DeHond Upstate NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 21:50:24 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: daems frans Subject: Fw: Wax building by the bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: daems frans=20 To: Bee-L=20 Subject: Wax building by the bees Dear friends, My bees don't like to rise up the waxframes I give them, they rise up = the wax but them they set propolis on the edge of the cell and the frame = is no longer usefull to the queen. She no longer like this frame to lay = eggs. Ervery year I renew a little part of frames into my hives (2 =E0 = 3 frames). Some beekeepers find this is a necessity, others they never = renew their frames. Aside from this question I like to meet beekeepers = who were experienced in this matter, have a system or a remedy to make = sure that bees rise up the wax in the frame and that the frame will be = accepted by the queen. Thanks for your response. Best regards Frans Daems (mailto:Jozef.Daems@Skynet.be) (Web site: http://www.users.skynet.be/bijen) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 23:49:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm only a newbie, but everywhere I read about requeening, experienced beekeepers recommend requeening during a honey flow so that the older, meaner foraging bees that might be more antagonized by a new queen will be busy foraging instead of lurking around the hive. I've also heard the thing about the strips, but I think it's the lesser of 2 evils. Get the queens in the hive during a honey flow, if possible. John ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:05:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Luis Rommel Beutelspacher Subject: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, =20 I had some bees analized for nosema and they came out positive. =20 I have not found a product here in Mexico with fumigillin, which is the = active ingredient of Fumidil-B. Does anyone know of a product available = here in Mexico? =20 On the other hand, I've heard there are some other remedies for nosema = other than fumigilin, anybody knows one? =20 I would also like to double check the result in another laboratory. I = would appreciate any suggestions of a good lab to check some bees for = nosema. =20 I hope to hear from you, =20 Greetings from Mexico =20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Luis Rommel Beutelspacher (\ Maya Honey S.A. de C.V. -{|||8- Ticul, Yucat=E1n, M=E9xico. (/ Tel/Fax (997) 20715 rommel@mayahoney.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:08:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: robbedout MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT John Edwards wrote: > ... If so, clean up the equipment and store in a bag with moth balls > in an outside shed (and hope the mice don't find them). Be careful not to mix up moth balls and moth crystals. They are not the same product. Moth crystals (PDB) are registered for use with bee equipment. Moth balls (Napthalene) are not. In the archives see: 022818 or send a single line of mail to: LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu that reads getpost bee-l 022818 Aaron Morris - thinking keep your treatments straight! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:52:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: robbed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >I have two hives that have been robbed of the last drop of honey by = >other hives. I can only move them a few hundred feet would moving be = >worth the effort and inside feeders save them from this winters = >starving?? Moving will just weaken them more by losing some of their field force. Get the entrance reducer on to allow the remaining bees a chance to regain control of their hive. If you are using a entrance feeder switch it to pure water, no syrup. Then give them some sugar candy or dry sugar on the inner cover as an emergency food source until you can see if they are going to be able to pull it together. I would be afraid that any source of liquid food is going to encourage the robbing. If the hive can restore its defenses, I would feed them some 2:1 syrup from an internal feeder until they get their stores built up. Also, since they have been stressed, I would consider this as a good time to treat for mites with Apistan (for Varroa) and grease patties (for tracheal). It may also be a good idea to treat with antibiotic. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:09:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even cheaper are homosote boards over the inner cover which act as moisture absorbers and also a water reservoir for the bees in the winter. I leave them on all year long. They absorb water and release it in the day with warm sun and dry air. I think the dessicant will fill up too quickly and require opening the hive to replace them to make dessicant worthwhile. You are absorbing water from more than the hive- it is open to the atmosphere, so you are drying the earth's atmosphere which could get trying :) Another interesting aspect- I read that the bees form a ice crystal barrier around the cluster through the moisture they give off which also acts as an insulator, so drying it up may lead to cooler bees and be counterproductive. Bill T Bath, ME Bobbi and David wrote: > > I am curious to find out if anyone has explored the use of Desiccants (the > FDA approved type) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:19:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Extraction time & Terramyacin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen DeHond in upstate NY wrote: > Am just finishing my first season and am receiving conflicting advice from > my mentors so thought I'd pick your collective brains. > > 1. One mentor wants to harvest about Labor Day, this is in upstate NY, > frost hits about 9/29 most years. I'm inclined to think we could wait a > couple of weeks. ************* Labor Day weekend provides the time for beekeepers to set up, extract, and clean up. Then the bees have the next weeks to gather winter stores. Labor Day weekend was the traditional extracting time in my area, too. (In SE Pennsylvania, the honeyflow is in May.) Now, some of us extract a month earlier so we can put Apistan on and have it work before cold weather. Extracting can be done anytime after the honey is in the hive. Extracting is easier in warm weather because warm honey flows more rapidly. ************* > 2. The other mentor says NEVER use Terramyacin. If foul brood is present > it won't work and otherwise it weakens the bees resistance. ? ************* An argument is that Terramycin merely covers up foulbrood and allows it to infect more colonies. Some time ago, most apiaries were inspected by the state every year or two for foulbrood which may have helped keep the level of infection down. In our world of reduced budgets, inspection is a haphazard thing. So we can manage our bees with Terra, trying to control the level of infection, or we can let the bees fend for themselves. A colony with a heavy infection of American foulbrood is a disheartening mess. My bias for treating shows here. ************* > 3. Once the honey supers are removed, what keeps the bees from feeling > crowded and starting to swarm? ************* Swarming is unlikely in autumn. Bees collect and store food for the winter. ************* > 4. When should I winterize the hives? ************* Mouse guards on before cool nights drive mice into colonies. I do not know anything about wrapping hives for winter; we don't wrap colonies in our milder climate. ************* > 5. Of 11 hives 2 aren't too big, my thought is to leave them alone and see > what spring brings, any ideas? ************* The bees will do better if the colonies are combined for winter and split in the spring. But the impulse to try to winter them is almost irresistible to the beekeeper. ************* > 6. Have been told to put apistan (2 strips/hive body) in when I close the > hives along with menthol (1 pkg/body) and not to treat in spring. Does this > sound ok? ************ Some people here extract early and treat with Apistan in the second half of the summer and again in late winter/early spring. Mid-summer treatment assumes that the main honeyflow is over before that time. Varroa mite populations grow during brood-rearing time and kill colonies in autumn. Upstate NY is probably too cool for menthol to work. Grease patties probably are a better treatment for tracheal mites. Tracheal mite populations grow during winter and damage or kill colonies in late winter. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:24:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Overwintering In-Reply-To: <199908231308.JAA11948@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bill T wrote: > Another interesting aspect- I read that the bees form a ice > crystal barrier around the cluster through the moisture they give > off which also acts as an insulator, so drying it up may lead to > cooler bees and be counterproductive. Can you give a source for this? There was a vary interesting article in ABJ by Wyatt Magnum on the winter cluster sometime last year(?). I don't recall anything about an ice barrier. Perhaps Wyatt missed it too. Thanks, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:26:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... Is the end of October too late to requeen in NE Ohio? Would it be better to wait till > spring? Any and all insights are welcome. The end of October in NE New York (which is a similar climate to NE Ohio) is getting pretty late to requeen a hive. First, cause it's pretty late in the season. AND if something goes awry with your first attempt it will be even later to try to set things straight. Given what you told us, I'd wait 'till next spring. What you didn't tell us is why you want to requeen. Are there problems with your current queen or do you want to requeen as standard operation procedures? If you're addressing a problem you may want to consider requeening while your strips are in. Requeening is always touch and go in the first place. I don't recall reading any warnings about Apistan and requeening, but I can't imagine that the strips would increase acceptance in any way shape or form. And how are you requeening? Introduction cage blocked with candy? Uniting a nuc? There are ways to increase your odds, waiting 'till October is not one of them. Aaron Morris - thinking winter is closer than we think > > Mike Swintosky > Dellroy, Ohio > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:15:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Wish I could. It may have been in one of the two mags I read- Gleanings or ABJ. All I know is I was intriqued by it, that the bees are resting in an ice cocoon. If I recall correctly, it was not in contact with the bees but a short distance away and usually formed at night. I almost did not include it in my post because I anticipated the question. Maybe someone else recalls it. It was several years ago that I read it. It was a sort of throwaway in the article. Nothing more was made of it than it was observed. I am not sure if there was a supposition on insulation or not, but it seems intuitive. Bill T Bath, ME Aaron Morris wrote: > > Can you give a source for this? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:00:35 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Extraction time: Terramyacin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Other items have been well covered, however, on item #6: Never leave Apistan in longer than 45 days. If you put it in in early fall, you must take it out in late fall. To do otherwise means to risk developing resistance in the mites to Apistan. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:55:13 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Overwintering In-Reply-To: <199908221935.PAA24982@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Karen DeHond asks: > 1. One mentor wants to harvest about Labor Day, this is in upstate NY, > frost hits about 9/29 most years. I'm inclined to think we could wait a > couple of weeks. Harvesting on labor day skips the main fall flows of goldenrod and aster. These can be quite heavy flows and are not particular goo honey for winter stores as they are high in ash content. However, harvesting these crops delays your fall medications and many in these areas have adopted strategies of shutting their bees down on Labor Day weekend. I have some customers who wait for aster honey, so I try to havest enough to keep those customers happy. Asters laugh at frost, it takes a HARD freeze to shut them down. But a problem with harvesting aster is that it is a hard crop for the bees to cure properly when the weather gets cool. If the weather stays warm, asters can produce a bumper crop. If it gets cool you can end up with a lot of runny honey which will ferment if not consumed quickly (great for mead!). I have seen geese migrating already, unusually(!) early for these parts. If there's any correlation we might expect an early winter. > 2. The other mentor says NEVER use Terramyacin. If foul brood is present it > won't work and otherwise it weakens the bees resistance. ??? Ah, that one. TM does work, it keeps AFB in check. If it's not used the beekeeper must be able to quickly diagnose AFB and immediately tend to outbreaks by burning the equipment. If on the other hand one chooses to use TM, you must continue regular treatments to keep any AFB that may be present under control. TM does not cure AFB, never has, never will. > 3. Once the honey supers are removed, what keeps the bees from feeling > crowded and starting to swarm? Natural die off of foragers. At first they WILL be crowded. But this is the time of year when populations are on the decline anyway. Queen laying peaked two months ago and has declined since. There will be fewer new bees hatching and the field force will be dwindling faster than the new bees that are emerging. The bees will take care of this on their own. > 4. When should I winterize the hives? Mouse guards by 10/1. The only other winter protection I use is an empty super stuffed with straw to absorb water vapor. Full details are in the archives. > 5. Of 11 hives 2 aren't too big, my thought is to leave them alone and see > what spring brings, any ideas? It's best to take your losses in the fall. It's better management to combine the weak ones with stronger hives in the fall than to clean up dead ones in the spring. Or you can attempt to overwinter the weak ones and see what the school of hard knocks has to teach. You may succeed and get a better personal gague of what is and what is not weak or strong enough to overwinter in your area. > 6. Have been told to put apistan (2 strips/hive body) in when I close the > hives along with menthol (1 pkg/body) and not to treat in spring. Does this > sound ok? Apistan, yes. Follow the directions, use only after honey supers are off and take them out after 45 days, even if that means opening your hives in the snow. Menthol is not a good treatment in upstate NY as it will get too cold for the menthol to sublimate and you will not get adequate treatment. Investigate Crisco patties instead. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:30:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bruce Guidotti Subject: Fall medication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in NorthWest Connecticut. I am a hobby keeper with two hives. I would like to get some and harvest some of the fall honey flow (goldenrod, loosestriff, aster, cornflower etc) which is just starting. I medicate in the fall with Apistan (have to) and menthol (applied via canola oil soaked paper towels which is supposed to be less dependant on temperature to give off vapors). Does anyone have any suggestions about how late I can pull my surplus honey and start medicating? Also idea time, and latest possible time to requeen? Thanks much for any input. Bruce Guidotti ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:18:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Alternative strategies to control varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I recently came across a four page leaflet entitled 'Alternative Varroa Control methods' FAM Advisory Leaflet Jeane-Daniel Charriere and Anton Imdorf Section apiculture Liebefeld FAM It describes the use of Drone Brood Trapping, Long Term treatment with Formic Acid, Treatment with essential oils, Oxalic treatment in broodless colonies, Spray Application of oxalic acid etc. It ends with the following Conclusion: 'By using alternative control strategies to control varroa, Central European beekeepers have the possibility, with a moderate amount of work, to maintain varroa infestations to below damage thresholds, whilst at the same time guaranteeing the quality and safety of hive products produced.' It states that more detailed information is available in various issues of the 'Revue Suisse d'apiculture' 1998. I was wondering if anybody could supply me with the address of the aforementioned organisation, as the data in the leaflet seems well thought out and I would like to learn more about it. I do realise that non chemical treatment for varroa has serious down sides, but with the spectre of resistant mites now dogging our footsteps, non chemical alternatives may be worth considering, especially for hobbyists in the short term. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 99 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:49:07 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Varroa in Ireland - update Comments: cc: Tom Barrett MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The news on the varroa front in Ireland is bleak, last year colonies in Sligo and Mayo were found to be infested with the mite. This year the mite has been discovered on bees in County Carlow some 140 miles from the location of the original discovery. I understand from the Department of agriculture that the beekeeper concerned had sent a sample in for monitoring and the mite was detected in this manner; the beekeeper has said that he did not move bees around but had collected some swarms from feral stocks. The only conclusion that can be gleaned from this is that the whole country is now probably infested. Ruary Rudd rrudd@tinet.ie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:56:52 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > 2. The other mentor says NEVER use Terramyacin. If foul brood is present it > > won't work and otherwise it weakens the bees resistance. ??? > Ah, that one. TM does work, it keeps AFB in check. If it's not used the > beekeeper must be able to quickly diagnose AFB and immediately tend to > outbreaks by burning the equipment. If on the other hand one chooses to use > TM, you must continue regular treatments to keep any AFB that may be present > under control. TM does not cure AFB, never has, never will. If you never use terramycin it is certain that you will have AFB. Terramycin will have absolutely no effect on the bees' resistance to AFB, but might cause resistant strains of B. larvae to arise. I disagree with Aaron's last statement that TM does not cure AFB - it does. It will not kill dormant spores, but will kill the organism that arises from the spores and infects bee larvae, thus curing the disease. The result is that you will have living brood and a healthy colony rather than dead brood and a dying colony. On the other hand, if I were to notice such a dying colony, especially one that showed lots of AFB scale, I would burn it rather than attempt to treat it. Why purposely keep around billions of spores in one's equipment, or allow robbing of infected hives to spread them around? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:45:14 +0200 Reply-To: Apiservices - Gilles Ratia Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiservices - Gilles Ratia Organization: Apiservices Subject: Re: Alternative strategies to control varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Tom Barrett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I recently came across a four page leaflet entitled 'Alternative Varroa Control methods' FAM Advisory Leaflet Jean-Daniel Charriere and Anton Imdorf Section apiculture Liebefeld FAM <<<<<<<<<< You can find the full version on the Net : 1) in French at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/varroas_fr.htm 2) in German at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/varroas_ge.htm You also have: "Residues in honey after application of thymol against Varroa using the Frakno Thymol frame" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/thymol_us.htm by Stefan Bogdanov, Verena Kilchenmann, Anton Imdorf and Peter Fluri "Résidus dans le miel dus à l'utilisation du cadre à thymol dans les colonies" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/thymol_fr.htm by Stefan Bogdanov, Verena Kilchenmann, Anton Imdorf and Peter Fluri "Rückstände im Honig nach Verwendung des Thymolrähmchens gegen die Varroa" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/thymol_ge.htm by Stefan Bogdanov, Verena Kilchenmann, Anton Imdorf and Peter Fluri "Potentiel et limites de l'acide oxalique pour lutter contre Varroa" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/oxalic_fr.htm by Charrière Jean-Daniel, Imdorf Anton and Fluri Peter "Was kann von der Anwendung der Oxalsäure gegen die Varroa erwartet werden?" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/oxalic_ge.htm by Charrière Jean-Daniel, Imdorf Anton and Fluri Peter "Abeilles européennes et abeilles africanisées au Mexique : la tolérance à Varroa jacobsoni" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/vandame/vandame.htm by RémyVandame "Abejas europeas y abejas africanizadas en México : la tolerancia a Varroa jacobsoni" at http://www.beekeeping.com/vandame/vandame_sp.htm by RémyVandame "Mineral oil as an alternative treatment for honey bee mites" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/mineral_oil.htm by Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez "Utilisation d'huiles végétales ou minérales : un outil potentiel dans la lutte contre Varroa jacobsoni" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/huiles.htm by Yves Le Conte, Marc Édouard Colin, Michaël Treilles, Didier Crauser and Alain Paris "Summer Treatment for Varroasis Widely Used in Europe" at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/formic_acid.htm Sincerely Best regards, Gilles RATIA International Beekeeping Consultant Webmaster of the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" gilles.ratia@apiservices.com http://www.apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:17:49 +0100 Reply-To: alan.riach@which.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Wavy Cut Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wavy foundation does tend to cause wavy combs of honey, but I've often noticed that feral colonies or swarms that have been allowed to establish in empty hives tend to produce wavy combs - maybe there's a gene for wavyness in bees. When we put our bees to the heather we only put in starter strips in the super frames - about 2.5cm (1") of thin foundation along the top bar - the combs are always pretty straight provided the hives are reasonably level (not always easy on a heather moor) Alan Riach - Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:43:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) lindena from tempa25.bf.sover.net [207.136.202.25] 207.136.202.25 Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:43:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: Oct 2 beekeeping workshop: winterizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping workshop from 1-3 PM on Saturday, October 2, at the Paul Harlow Farm on Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north of the I-91 Exit 5 ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign on the west side. Topics of discussion will include treatment of nosema and tracheal mites, winter preparations, winter protein and carbohydrate supplements, and making beeswax handcreams. Bring a veil, if you have one, as we shall be opening some colonies. Rain date: October 3. To register/questions: email lindena@sover.net or call 603-756-9056." Thank you, Charles Andros Walpole, NH 03608-0165 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:21:57 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: WASPS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >already lost 4 hives to wasps and has not been able to get any real help When we have problems with yellow jackets in Ohio, we put on an entrance reducer so the guard bees have less area to defend and set numerous baited yellow jacket traps around the property. It works for us. Linda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:14:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "WM. ARNOLD JONES" Subject: honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to offer flavored honey to some of my local customers. = Where would I go for receipes on this? Does anyone else do this sort = of thing? arnold jones ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:42:14 -0700 Reply-To: r@jobhaus.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert MacKimmie Subject: Re: Overwintering, specifically foul brood ... Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) I would like to follow up on the comments of Ted Fischer and others regarding Foul Brood and treating with Terramyacin. In my first year, I received nine hives in trade for work provided to a commercial beekeeper. He gave me his dog hives because they were small and easy to relocate -- and I violated the first rule of beekeeping by inheriting someone else's ills. At first I reacted modestly to the challenged hives, trading out the worst equipment and this helped momentarily. When foul brood showed up again in my beautiful new first generation comb, I was heartbroken at bees' and my lost work, not to mention the loss of brood. I immediately became vigilant about treating properly with terramyacin, after shaking the bees into entirely pristine equipment. I heartily agree with Ted that you CAN knock the AFB problem, if you address all of the issues at once, leaving no trace of foul brood in the colony. As a follow-up anecdote, I had one hive of those nine hives that seemingly was challenged on and off for nine months, though no definite problem could be nailed down. Finally I swapped out the old deep and two old supers, replacing them with fresh equipment and new wax --- the hive prospered within weeks and are strong as can be. I think the equipment was haunted. >From my experience, disease must be treated assertively and the time you waste in hassling with an unproductive hive will more than compensate the cost of new equipment. Disease free beekeeping is one of my major priorities. I have been free of all foul brood for quite some time. I reject the notion that a little foul brood in the mix will result in a better outcome -- my observation of that notion is that it results in a time bomb, with lots of diseased woodenware to burn and an entire operation potentially infected. Be good to your bees, yourself and your investment. robert@citybees.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:31:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Haberl Organization: Hessische Landesanstalt fuer Tierzucht Subject: Re: Alternative strategies to control varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > ... > 'Alternative Varroa Control methods' > FAM Advisory Leaflet > Jeane-Daniel Charriere and Anton Imdorf > Section apiculture Liebefeld FAM > ... > I was wondering if anybody could supply me with the address of the > aforementioned organisation, as the data in the leaflet seems well thought > out and I would like to learn more about it. > ... Dr. Anton Imdorf Apicultural Division Federal Diary Research Station Liebefeld 3003 Bern, Switzerland Anton.Imdorf@fam.admin.ch Best wishes, Michael -- Michael Haberl haberl@mailer.uni-marburg.de http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~haberl/ http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~ag-biene/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:56:27 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Overwintering In-Reply-To: <199908231859.OAA21452@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 23 Aug 99, at 14:55, Aaron Morris wrote: > > 6. Have been told to put apistan (2 strips/hive body) in when I close > > the hives along with menthol (1 pkg/body) and not to treat in spring. > > Does this sound ok? > Apistan, yes. Follow the directions, use only after honey supers are off > and take them out after 45 days, even if that means opening your hives in > the snow. I normally agree with Aaron, but not this time. Opening hives in the snow is a dangerous practice, a split cluster has a major problem getting back together and re-organising. The usual thinking regarding the removal of 'Happy Stan' after 45 days is to prevent resistant mites, but I don't believe they will form over one winter. I had to leave our strips in last year and we've had no problems. As an aside when Varroa first hit Ontario it was advised to leave the strips in for the first winter! ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:10:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William G Lord Subject: venom collector plans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I need a hard copy of venon collector plans. Can anyone give me a reference. Apitronics sells them, but I am in need of plans for construction. Thanks, Bill Lord -- William G Lord Area Specialized Agent, Environmental Education E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 919-496-3344 Fax : 919-496-0222 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Swintosky, Michael D." Subject: FW: Requeening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" < Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: TM and AFB (was Overwintering) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ted Fischer wrote: > ... I disagree with Aaron's last > statement that TM does not cure AFB - it does. OK, this is semantics. I went to Webster's to look up "cure", which means "to return to a state of health". Oxytetracycline does not return a larva to a state of health, it prevents the bacillus larvae (AFB) from growing in the developing bee larva's midgut thereby keeping that larva in a state of health. TM can "cure" a hive by preventing bacillus larvae from becoming endemic in that hive. Pre-TM treatment infected bee larva WILL die, but the overall health of the hive can return to normal as the post-TM treatment new generations of bee larvae remain healthy. A sick hive CAN return to a state of health. But the presence of AFB in that hive is not removed, it is kept in check. Has the hive been "cured"? Yes. Is the hive "all better"? No. The point I was making is that TM will not wipe out forever outbreaks of AFB. I wrote, "TM does work, it keeps AFB in check." If you want to split hairs over "cure", that's fine but it misses the point that once an operation starts using TM as a cure or even as a prophelactic treatment for AFB, that operation must continue with that treatment or be prepared to endure AFB outbreaks when the treatment stops. It's what Andy called the chemical "merry go around". Once you get on, you stay on or PAY THE PRICE when you get off. For the record, I dust my hives as a prophelactic treatment for AFB, following label instructions, every spring (early March 1) and every fall (late October). I have seen one occurance of AFB in one hive in the past decade. I burned the hive, burried the ashes. Aaron Morris - agreeing that TM is an effective treatment for AFB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:23:04 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: FW: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike I tried requeening in late September with nucs and direct with queen cages about 5 years ago here in southwest Ohio. Neither method produced good results; I lost over half of all those colonies by winter. My feeling is that nucs are a bit more positive, but given a choice, I will no longer requeen in the fall. For me, fall requeening is a total waste of time and money. Spring startups in April and May have been very positive for me at this location. Results may differ drastically in other parts of the world. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Call Sign: W8BEE ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:51:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: OOPS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To prevent the various strata of a beehive sticking together with embarrassing results paint the meeting surfaces with petroleum jelly occasionally. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:31:37 -0600 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: WASPS - cheap traps Comments: To: bjhensel@pacific.net, Gusrow@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Brian & all, If you want to get rid of pesky wasps & yellow jackets, follow this simple trick: Take a bottle & fill 1/8-1/4 way with jam (Rasberry seems to work best). Fill the bottle to 2/3 the way up with water. Shake & place around your hives - anywhere. You'll come back the next day to find 1000's of predators drowned inside (mostly yellow jackets) and very,very few bees. Matthew Westall - Earthling Bees, Castle Rock, CO > Is there anyone on the list that can help my friend in northern Ca.? > He has > already lost 4 hives to wasps and has not been able to get any real > help. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:01:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Honey flavors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Arnold Jones asked: >I would like to offer flavored honey to some of my local customers. = >Where would I go for receipes on this? Does anyone else do this sort = >of thing? Honey is honey, with nothing added. I believe laws exist that would not permit "adulteration" of the natural product --- and still call it honey. However, I sometimes find cinnamon-flavored spun honey for sale in honey stands and at farmers markets. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ****** * * You cannot hold on to the past; when you're holding on to the past, you're * protecting yourself and stealing from future generations." * * NASA Chief, Dan Goldin * LOS ANGELES TIMES - 1 July 1999 * **************************************************************************** ****** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:16:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Varroa in Ireland - update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ruary Rudd wrote: > The news on the varroa front in Ireland is bleak, last year colonies in > Sligo and Mayo were found to be infested with the mite. > > This year the mite has been discovered on bees in County Carlow some 140 > miles from the location of the original discovery. > ... > The only conclusion that can be gleaned from this is that the whole country is > now probably infested. Varroa was the TOP topic of discussion at Gormanston. The point was clearly made that if Irish beekeepers have not yet seen Varroa in their area it's only a matter of time before they do. I was impressed by the number of concerned and preparing beekeepers there were attending the many varroa related sessions. The good news is that the Ministry of Agriculture has shifted their strategy from eradication to containment, meaning they still don't get it. But at least they've stopped burning hives. The official line was that the varroa infestation was more wide spread than they originally thought and they realized that eradication was wishful thinking. Personally I suspect someone realized that there was not enough money around to compensate the owners of the burned hives. News too late for those beekeepers who were burned out. Anyway, now the Ministry is attempting to contain varroa to Sligo and Mayo, although they are allowing known infestations to go untreated until the end of the heather season with expectations to treat after the harvest. In other words, they still don't get it! However, the good news is that a lot of the Irish beekeepers aren't depending on their Ministry of Agriculture to save them from varroa and they are preparing to address the problem when it arrives (and it will arrive) in their own yard(s). An exellent session presented by Ian McLean was titled, "Varroa: Only a Problem When You're Not Looking!" The session included techniques to detect varroa and the full gamut of IPM strategies that have been developed in other parts of the world. Ireland has the advantage that much works has been done before they had to deal with the problem. Additionally, Ireland has no snow so they won't be able to use the lame excuse of having left strips in all winter because they didn't want to risk breaking a winter cluster ;-) Aaron Morris - thinking the bees weren't green, but the trip was great! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:54:08 -0700 Reply-To: mcmanus Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: mcmanus Subject: Re: honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arnold asked about flavored honey. The most important part of beekeeping is the education of those who wish to partake in the wonderful world of the bee. And the first step is to know what happens when the bee meets the flower. If the flowers are from a Raspberry patch, the nectar tastes like Raspberry, from the Blackberry plant, tastes like Blackberry and so on. The closer to the flower that you put your hives, the better chance that the honey will taste like berry you pick. It's not that some people don't know this, but those who buy your honey might not and should be informed. I get asked all the time on " How do you get the flavors". So I tell the customers and they feel good about learning something that they never know before Joe McManus Loving You Honey Farms Bremerton, WA. USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:19:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bait hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The wax moths don't seem to be a great problem in bait hives. When a swarm moves in they sort them out. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:38:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Re: What to do with cappings. In my experience, after leaving a peirco frame out for cleaning, I found a varroa mite on the frame. My bees did not have varroa. Seems like too much of a risk to get that many bees together - unless you can be sure that they are all yours - and free from mites. Of course, I have also lost hives to robbing, too - but not as a result of honey cleanup by bees. Bad management Don't intend to find out, either. Intending stay as far from creating an invitation as possible. Learning all the time! Tim Rich ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:53:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: canada # 1 grade Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have been having some discussions with my Canada Food Inspection Agency inspector about canada grades (up until now my honey has been sold in province only, and needed no grade). Canada No. 1 is under 17.8% moisture and free of material residue on an 80 mesh screen. Canada No. 2 is under 18.6% moisture and free of material residue on a 60 mesh screen. Canada No. 3 is under 20% moisture. There doesn't appear to be filtering restrictions. Now, IMHO honey will not run through an 80 mesh screen unless it is pretty hot (at any reasonable rate). Question: How much pollen (in terms of % of what would be found in "settled" honey) would remain on after 80 mesh filtering? after 60? The inspector said it is illegal to label the honey as "raw" or "unheated". I asked whether it would be permissible to label the honey as coarse filtered, or just "Canada No. 3, but with under 17.8% moisture", or something to that effect. He was going to get back to me on it. Has anyone dealt with this before that might have some advice? Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:20:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David & Sarah Grew-Foss Subject: Re: honey flavors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I saw some honey with a lavander flower in each jar selling for $8.00 per 1/2 pound!!! at a fancy grocery in this area. The most expensive honey in the shop was $10.75 a half pound and was from Hawaii. The label on the lavander honey called it "Lavander Infusion". I didn'tn buy any so I can't tell you how it tasted. Sarah Grew Richmond CA >I would like to offer flavored honey to some of my local customers. = >Where would I go for receipes on this? Does anyone else do this sort = >of thing? > >arnold jones > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 02:42:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Fernando Luis Esteban Subject: I'm looking for contacts near Los Angeles-Vancouver route Dear friends I'm an Argentine beekeeper and I'm the Director of a humble beekeeping magazine here in Argentina: "Espacio Apicola". I will arrive to Los Angeles (California - USA) with two friends on next September 7. We will go in a van to Apimondia Congress in Vancouver and we want to visit beekeepers, suppliers or beekeeping investigation centers in our route. If you can recive us, please contact us. If you need reference about us you can visit our site: http://www.apicultura.com.ar Thank you in advance Fernando inform@apicultura.com.ar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:53:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: beehive clipart Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As a result of a recent posting I looked at the clipart available from the National Honey Board. There is a nice straw skep hive, and a langstroth hive. Anyone know where I might get some clipart of a log gum hive, and a Kenya top bar hive? And what might the French translation for those four hive types be? Thankyou in advance Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: honey flavors In-Reply-To: <199908241100.HAA12220@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 23 Aug 99, at 22:14, WM. ARNOLD JONES wrote: > I would like to offer flavored honey to some of my local customers. = > Where would I go for receipes on this? Does anyone else do this sort = > of thing? I flavour a lot of my honey, it encourages more people to eat it. The one's that say "It's too sweet for me," will eat flavoured creamed honey, or use liquor flavoured honey as a pouring sauce on ice cream or fruit. To avert criticism about it no longer being pure honey I call my creamed honey "Creme" and my other honey "Gourmet" honey. It sells very well it specialty stores and gift shops. If you would like recipes please write off list. Regards Jean ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:05:26 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mcmanus wrote: > If the flowers are from a > Raspberry patch, the nectar tastes like Raspberry, from the Blackberry > plant, tastes like Blackberry and so on. > The closer to the flower that you put your hives, the better chance that > the honey will taste like berry you pick. Now this is just hard to believe. Yes, it is true that honeys from different floral sources have different flavors, but how in the world can the honey taste like the fruit? I have had a yard about 35 feet from a 2 acre raspberry field for the last 10 years or so and have never tasted the slightest hint of raspberry in this wonderfully light and extra sweet honey. I have another yard in an apple/peach orchard, and yet the honey would never give any taste of apple. I could go on an on with other examples, but the point is that honey tastes like honey, fruit like fruit, even if there are subtleties in the various flavors of each. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:08:52 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Alternative strategies to control varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It describes the use of Drone Brood Trapping, Long Term treatment with > Formic Acid, Treatment with essential oils, Oxalic treatment in broodless > colonies, Spray Application of oxalic acid etc. *snip* > I do realise that non chemical treatment for varroa has serious down sides, > but with the spectre of resistant mites now dogging our footsteps, non > chemical alternatives may be worth considering, Tom, with the exception of drone brood trapping, all of the above are chemical treatments, and formic and oxalic acids are quite hazardous. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper pencaemawr@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:26:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Disposing of Bayvarol and Apistan strips Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have been asked by a Beekeeping Supplies man how used Bayvarol and Apistan strips should be disposed of. I have heard that they are lethal to fish so that they should not be allowed to find their way into watercourses. Can they be destroyed by incineration or will the fumes cause problems?. Any advice most welcome so that we can get rid of the stuff correctly, now that we will have to use it in earnest, as the result of the spread of varroa in Ireland. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:52:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, it is true that honeys from different floral sources have different flavors, but how in the world can the honey taste like the fruit? I have had a yard about 35 feet from a 2 acre raspberry field for the last 10 years or so and have never tasted the slightest hint of raspberry in this wonderfully light and extra sweet honey. Ted I suspect that a 2 acre concentration would not be enough to discourage the foraging for other nectars unless there are no other sources present at the time and supers are removed promptly when the desired flow is over. There are particular techniques to garner these varietal honeys. Immersing a colony within a field so that the only producing bloom within several hundred yards of the hive is of one variety will normally be sufficient if the bloom produces enough nectar. This would require 20 acres or so. The honey does not so much taste/smell of the fruit, but of the flower. In sufficient amount/ percentage content this can be determined. The honey is more properly termed rasberry/blueberry/blackberry blossom honey. The flower and the fruit can have distinctly different flavor/smell. For example, a lemon flower will taste sweet, and has a distinctive smell. It tastes nothing like the fruit. The varietal honey from the lemon flower smells of the fresh flower and has a taste reminiscent of the flower. The two are not mutually exclusive however, a flower that produces a scent familiar to the scent of the fruit would be cantaloupe. In a unique set of circumstances I have been able to harvest this year a honey obviously of significant cantaloupe nectar. It is definite as there is a distinct smell of cantaloupe to it. The taste is different than the fruit however. It is sour/sweet much as sour apple is sour/sweet and carries the fruit odor. The fine point here is that the honey will take on the odor/taste of the flower not the fruit, as the nectar comes from the flower. If the nectar resembles the fruit than it is coincidental. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Honey Bees in attic Comments: cc: alancreamer@erarthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone out there who lives in or near to Rancho Santa Fe. California, San Diego County, who would like to remove and keep a colony of honey bees in an attic ? If so, please contact Alan Creamer at 858-759-9689. Alan prefers not to have to kill the colony! Thanks, Al Needham = .........................................................................= Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:47:38 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: honey flavors Back in the 1950s bee scientists in Russia did a lot of feeding of contained colonies with flavoured sugar syrups. That is, the bees were simply used to modify sucrose solutions and store it into combs. The resulting material (I won't call it honey...) was then extracted... One could conceivably produce all *sorts* of flavoured honey like material, limited only by what you could get them to 'take down'... > Now this is just hard to believe. Yes, it is true that honeys from > different floral sources have different flavors, but how in the > world can the honey taste like the fruit? (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:58:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HeinzeDJAK@AOL.COM Subject: Please diagnose my bee problems! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, My colonies are developing some strange symtoms which I cannot explain. First of all, the number of bees in my four hives has been decreasing largely, and the bees have been spending a lot of time removing dead bees from within the hive - this seems strange as I believe bees usually die outside the hive - another strange thing is that the dead bees which the workers are removing are not totally dead when removed; they still wiggle around for an hour of so after being removed. I collected about 40 of these 3/4ths dead bees, and killed them in a insect killing jar powered with ethyl acetate (I have these jars for my butterfly and moth collecting). As they died, I rolled them, looking for varroa. Only three were dislodged. I then tried disecting them for tracheal mites (which I didn't think really was the cause - these are second generation buckfast) but was unsuccessful, not suprisingly. Today I decided to open one of the hives and do the ether roll technique to see if my varroa population was high; I also was going to uncap and remove some drone brood. Well, there were few bees, and not much brood in a very bad pattern. There was evidence of dead pupae, or maybe larvae, which looked like little white puddles in the bottom of the cells. In some places, these puddles had dried up, turning kind of grayish. First through my mind was AFB, but a few things don't make sense - why would the worker bees be carrying out so many mostly dead workers if AFB was the problem? Isn't it just an immature bee disease? By the way, I rolled about 40 bees with the ether (it was difficult to get larger samples, because the bees were spread out on the combs) and only four mites stuck to the jar sides. If anyone out there can give me some hints, I would be very grateful. By the way, I live in Houston, TX - continuous cold weather won't be until Dec. Thanks! Dar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:55:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Please diagnose my bee problems! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HeinzeDJAK@AOL.COM wrote: > Well, there were few bees, and not much brood > in a very bad pattern. There was evidence of dead pupae, or maybe larvae, > which looked like little white puddles in the bottom of the cells. In some > places, these puddles had dried up, turning kind of grayish. First through > my mind was AFB, but a few things don't make sense - why would the worker > bees be carrying out so many mostly dead workers if AFB was the problem? > Isn't it just an immature bee disease? By the way, I rolled about 40 bees > with the ether (it was difficult to get larger samples, because the bees were > spread out on the combs) and only four mites stuck to the jar sides. Suppose you were to have both AFB (maybe EFB) and varroa mites. The basic problem does seem to be AFB, but you don't specify all the symptoms. Are the dead brood larvae or pupae? Are they in capped cells, and if so are the cappings sunken and often perforated? Does the dead brood tissues string out when tested with a small stick? These would be signs of AFB. EFB attacts pupae, but also larvae, so its makes a difference what you are observing. Now scattered cells with dying pupae is also seen in colonies on the verge of collapse from varroa infestation. However, you should have seen more mites than that. In a colony that will be OK, at this time of the year I observe 4 - 6 mites on many drone pupae. I say it will be OK because I will install strips very soon now - without treatment these colonies will be dead by November. Did you pull drone pupae and observe whether or not they had mites? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:09:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Re: Alternative strategies to control varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All John Burgess wrote as follows: >with the exception of drone brood trapping, all of the above are chemical >treatments, and formic and oxalic acids are quite hazardous. > John is absolutely right - I stand corrected - what I meant to say was non Bayvarol/Apistan treatments rather than making use of the generic term 'chemical'. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:48:08 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: VARROA----? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm confused! Varroa jacobsoni is a parasitic mite of honey bees genus Apis. A colony of bees can be infested with varroa. Varroa can trigger or possibly be a vector for viral diseases and maybe others. Heavy infestations of varroa or tracheal mites separately or together can have a dramatic effect upon a bee colony, the so-called parastic mite syndrome,PMS. But, varroa infestation in itself is not a disease. So can our bee scientist colleagues answer the following: 1. Is it correct to describe this infestation with an --osis word? 2. If so which of the following (all found on the web and in literature)is correct? varrosis varroosis varroasis varroaosis varroatosis The latter would seem to be correct, if in fact it is correct to use an --osis word at all. I note that most professional sites never use any of the above terms. An additional query: 3. Apiservices - Virtual Beekeeping Gallery: in a taxonomy dictionary refers to the western honey bee as Apis mellifica, mellifera (?) My understanding is that the species name mellifica has long been oudated and that mellifera is the species name that is now accepted. Is this correct? Cheers Tony Morgan -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7004 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:18:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What to do with cappings. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, Dr. Diana Sammataro's book: The BEEKEEPERS HANDBOOK, 3rd Edition dated April 98 is perhaps the BEST book ever written for both beginners or novices. It is $29.95, and available by E-mail: kim@airoot.com You will learn a lot more, a lot easier, and save a lot of money that you have lost by mistakes. Good Luck! Maybe my url's will be helpful: http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ click the lower right image http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:37:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick Wallingford wrote: > Back in the 1950s bee scientists in Russia did a lot of feeding of > contained colonies with flavoured sugar syrups. That is, the bees > were simply used to modify sucrose solutions and store it into > combs. The resulting material (I won't call it honey...) was then > extracted... > > One could conceivably produce all *sorts* of flavoured honey like > material, limited only by what you could get them to 'take down'... Yes, the point is that one cannot call it "honey" just because it is something that one has gotten out of a bee colony. In the same way, no one would (or at least should) feed sugar syrup when supers are in place and then extract and sell this product. If one feeds flavored syrups (such as Coca cola syrup, for example) you could conceivably get all sorts of flavors. This however would not be honey, and to market it as such would be to downgrade the wonderful natural product of the honey bee as well as cause all kinds of confusion in the general public. In a related matter, I have had some of my honey made up into "Honeystix", and they sell very well, especially to children at fairs and festivals. Now many artificially flavored "Honeystix" are on the market as well, and there is a good demand for them. But I can't stand to sell flavored honey productrs, so have reluctantly decided to stop carrying any "Honeystix" at all. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:14:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re: Disposing of Bayvarol and Apistan strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom asks about disposal of used varroa strips. I've thought long and hard if the following is irresponsible but cannot see that it is - THEY APPARENTLY KILL OR DETER WAX MOTHS so before disposing of them hang a couple between the stored supers. If this is a foolish action, the back is broad and I would like to be told. Previously, and after they have finished killing (???) wax moths, I wrap them in a polythene bag of some kind and place in the dustbin with other refuse, maybe that is hazardous to the environment but so must so many other things that go out as household rubbish. Ken Hoare Shropshire, UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:49:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: Please diagnose my bee problems! In-Reply-To: HeinzeDJAK@AOL.COM's message of Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:58:03 EDT Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) When I get four mites on a real good roll I get upset and assume that I have a real bad mite infestation. I do think that the roll is one of the best if not the best way to find mites and tell how many you have. When I find that many mites on a roll I almost always find dead larva in the brood. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 05:58:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: honey flavors In-Reply-To: <199908251103.HAA15659@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I flavour a lot of my honey, it encourages more people to eat it. > The one's that say "It's too sweet for me," will eat flavoured > creamed honey, or use liquor flavoured honey as a pouring sauce on > ice cream or fruit. Be aware that, in many (most) jurisdictions, doing this changes you from a beekeeper handling honey to a food processor. If you achieve any volume of sales beyond the 'home kitchen, church bazaar' level, which is usually exempt, government regulations and inspections tend to be much more stringent -- in our area, at least. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:29:39 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Honey Stix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted, Why stop with the honey stix? At the fair my kids had free rein to buy any honey stix they wanted, but were not allowed to buy candy. They consumed numerous flavors. At the end of the day, I noticed they all had the same amber colored stix. I asked what flavor they were eating. They said, "The real flavor Mom. It tastes the best." So why not sell only _plain_ honey stix. The kids love honey, but won't suck on a jar at the fairs. Linda in Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:39:28 -0700 Reply-To: mcmanus Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: mcmanus Subject: Re: honey flavors Comments: To: tvf@umich.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is apparent to me that those who have read my last post on flavored honey did not understand what I meant. I did not say that the honey gets it's flavor from the fruit, but from the flower of the fruit. The nectar of the flower of whatever fruit it's from is what determines the flavor. As in Orange Blossom form California, Sourweed from the New England states or Apple Blossom from Washington. Of course then there's the all famous Clover from everywhere. I must then ask those who are in the know, how else could honey receive the various flavors it would taste like, if not from the Flower of the fruit? And why the honey I sell to my customers, under the different labels, indicate the flavors as all the rest of you do also. I guess in Washington State the rains that we get, must clear the air enough so as to beable to taste the difference. Joe McManus Loving You Honey Farms Bremerton, WA. USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:30:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Please diagnose my bee problems! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What caught my eye was the bees that are not quite dead. My guess is that they are getting into something toxic that is taking a little time to kill the adults. This leaves time for them to get it to the hive, into the stomach of the nurse bees, and then to the larvae. This could be a contact poison that is coming in with the pollen, or something in the nectar. There may be someone in your area that is using a pesticide on flowering plants that the bees are finding. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:38:26 -0700 Reply-To: has@mail.ocis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: has Subject: Re: Honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello. For the why flavor honey person my question is why cook your food before you eat it, or why spice your food it does not come that way. Flavored honey is very very good. Strawberry Honey M' M' Good. For info on this try Paradise Island Sales Inc. Nanaimo B.C. V9V 1A3 Canada. This honey is blended with strawberry extract to atain the flavor and to my knowledge this takes place in Manitoba Canada. Hope this helps ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:47:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Emily M. Pruyn" Subject: Re: Please diagnose my bee problems! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:55 PM 08/25/1999 -0400,Ted Fischer wrote: > >Suppose you were to have both AFB (maybe EFB) and varroa mites. The basic >problem does seem to be AFB, but you don't specify all the symptoms. Are the >dead brood larvae or pupae? Are they in capped cells, and if so are the >cappings sunken and often perforated? Does the dead brood tissues string out >when tested with a small stick? These would be signs of AFB. EFB attacts >pupae, but also larvae, so its makes a difference what you are observing. If you have almost all the signs of AFB *except* not the smell nor the stringy-ness, could you possibly have brood adversely affected by heat.. perhaps if there were not enough adult bees present to keep the hive regulated? Emily, Bedford MA Emily M. Pruyn emlake@aerodyne.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:49:32 -0400 Reply-To: hmeyer@sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Helen Meyer Subject: Beekeeping Meeting Topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: One of the most interesting and participatory recent meetings our association had was one where all the members brought an invention or new piece of equipment. It was wonderful to see how imaginative these ideas were - using a water bed heater with a control (bought at a garage sale) to keep honey warm. H. Meyer Erin, ON ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:37:31 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Honey flavours In-Reply-To: <199908261545.LAA22709@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jo McManus wrote > I did not say that the honey gets it's flavor from the fruit, but from the flower of > the fruit. The nectar of the flower of whatever fruit it's from is what determines > the flavor. Here in Australia this is called floral varities. Honey is quite often sold under it's flora label e.g. ironbark, yellow box, clover etc. It even appears on the supermarket shelves in floral types. It is sold for a dearer price than the blended honeys. Of course the problem is that unscrupluous people can substitute other honeys that are not true floral types and charge the higher price. We in Australia are funding research that is curently looking at "finger printing" the different floral types of honey so that if someone has a doubt that they are getting that floral type, it can be checked. In other parts of the world, I know they do pollen analysis but a lot of our Eucalypts do not produce pollen e.g. yellow box, brown box and some ironbarks. Also, we can have honey from one plant and pollen from another e.g. honey from brown box ( called grey box in southern Australia) and pollen from peach bush which produces next to no honey. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 00:15:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: Please diagnose my bee problems! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How long have your hives been loosing their populations, i.e. when did you notice that things were not right? What plant crops are in flower? If you cut out the probability of disease, look at the behaviour of the bees on the entrance of the hives- is it normal? Depending on the responses you find, it maybe an intoxication of some sort. Your response will be interesting to see. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:58:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim & Sue Maus Subject: Re: Please diagnose my bee problems! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I also concur on poisoning creating these symptoms. Somehow they have/are being poisoned and bringing it back into the hive. Jim Maus West Bend WI ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:11:31 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Disposing of Bayvarol and Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett asks about how to dispose of Bayvarol and Apistan strips. Sorry Tom, but I think this is the type of question that should not be asked of this list. The question should be: What disposal recommendations are required by the product label? (I presume that you don't have access to a copy of the UK label or you wouldn't have asked.) "Read and follow all label directions" is good advice for agricultural pesticide applicators and beekeepers. And sometimes the label is confusing. The disposal requirements on the U.S. Apistan label are somewhat confusing. They are as follows: " STORAGE and DISPOSAL: Do not contaminate water, food, or feed by storage or disposal." "Disposal: Do not reuse strips. Wastes resulting from use of this product may be disposed of on site or at an approved waste disposal facility." The Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS), that is not usually available with the product at the retail level, says: "Waste Disposal Method (Consult federal, state, & local regulations.): Do not reuse container or used strip. If household waste, wrap and put in trash. If large numbers of strips are to be discarded, dispose of in an approved landfill or incinerator. In all cases, it is best to consult local authorities as to appropriate disposal procedures and locations." This language suggests there are five ways to dispose of the strips: 1. on site (in the apiary), 2. in an approved waste facility, 3. wrap and put with household waste, 4. put in an approved landfill (here a landfill is the destination of household waste), 5. in an approved incinerator. The above language reflects what we call "boiler plate" terminology common to many product labels written by manufacturers. It is my personal opinion that there is or may be a conflict between the two statements, especially in some parts of Washington State, i.e. "Do not contaminate water," and "this product may be disposed of on site," . I don't think the company is aware of the common "site" of apiaries. Disposal of the Apistan strips (and maybe Bayvarol?) in many apiaries may constitute a contamination of ground water depending on how the chemical remaining on the strips after a treatment may be affected by sunlight and temperature, and whether rain will move the chemical residue into the soil. Our studies show that about 8 to 13 percent of the chemical remains on the surface of the strip after a 45 to 60 day treatment period. I called the manufacturer today and asked how Apistan (and fluvalinate) breaks down in the environment, whether the used strips should be disposed of in the apiary, and the potential impact of burning the strips in a backyard burn barrel. I was told that the strips should not be burned with household waste in a backyard burn barrel. They should be disposed of by wrapping them in newspaper and placing them with household waste for disposal in a landfill, or they should be delivered to a government approved commercial waste facility or incinerator. (The department of agriculture's pesticide folks agreed with the manufacturer's directions.) I suggested to the manufacturer that the disposal language on the label should be written something like this: Disposal: Dispose of used strips by wrapping in paper and placing with household garbage, or in an approved commercial waste disposal facility, landfill, or incinerator. Do not burn strips with household or yard waste. I suspect the UK Apistan label will read similar to the U.S. label. Since Bayvarol is not sold in the U.S., I can't quote the label recommendations. I think this will answer your question Tom. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:49:12 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: Honey flavours > Here in Australia this is called floral varities. Honey is quite > often sold under it's flora label e.g. ironbark, yellow box, > clover etc. It even appears on the supermarket shelves in floral > types It is sold for a dearer price than the blended honeys. > Of course the problem is that unscrupluous people can substitute > other honeys that are not true floral types and charge the higher > price. New Zealand has moved in the same direction over the last 25 years or so. I remember the first guy I knew here who was extracting small lines and selling them as individual sources - now it is the norm. And from a value adding point of view, it can be a very good thing. We in New Zealand are trying to encourage the 'sophisticated user', trying to get people to choose the right honey for the particular purpose, etc. (and getting better returns for the beekeeper in the process!). You can read some of the descriptive words we've used for our honeys at http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/honey.htm (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:28:05 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Disposing of Bavarol and Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was going to make my recent post to the list in reply to Tom Barrett's question more terse, something like: Don't ask these questions of beekeepers on the list because you'll get many illegal and hazardous answers and recommendations. Instead I made it more diplomatic. Then I get my messages and see Ken Hoare's answer which is contrary to the label and therefore illegal, and potentially hazardous to honey consumers and the national and international marketing of honey. Ken says that the strips "apparently kill or deter wax moths." Who says they do? Is this another beekeeper tall tale? Where is the research? Ken says that he "thought long and hard if the following (his recommendation to hang strips in honey supers) is irresponsible but cannot see that it is." By what stretch of the imagination can hard and long thought help him see, without reading the product label? The label says to remove supers before treating a hive with Apistan because research shows that you can get contamination of combs by bees who walk or move honey from the brood nest to the supers. The manufacturer says (I quoted them in a recent post to the list) that treated brood combs should never be moved up into honey supers, and bees should never be allowed to store honey in combs that have been treated with Apistan. In other words you must keep brood nest combs separated from honey combs at all times. Sorry folks, it is appalling to me that beekeepers, and so-called beekeeping gurus: a) often misuse chemicals, and b) cause food contamination and health hazards by contaminating honey, c) invent novel ways to use labeled products contrary to the label, d) advise and recommend that others do the same, e) do not read and follow label directions, and f) do not pay any attention to industry warnings, advertising, manufacturers, and researchers who caution about the misuse of bee medications and chemicals. Then they complain when pesticide applicators who do the same thing and damage or kill their bee colonies with a misuse of a chemical! James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 00:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Swarming Instinct MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, Quick question. Do the workers, or the queen decide it is time to swarm? Do they make swarm cups, and hope the queen lays in them? Reason I ask is I requeened a hive a month ago with a young queen. The hive was acting like it was wanting to swarm. Even after the queen was accepted, and laying swarm efforts continued, but diminished with time. The time tended to coincide with the amount of time it took the original workers to die and be replaced by the new offspring. Any insight would be great. Thanks. Scott ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:17:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Scott Subject: Menthol Crystals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Does anyone have any suggestions on a good way to treat a hive with menthol crystals and preventing the bee's from propalizing the crystals, so they can evaporate properly. Thanks Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:19:57 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Peru MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any beekeeper from Peru on the list???? mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:58:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Checking Queens for varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Maybe this is a crazy notion, but here goes anyway!. Suppose a Queen Breeder in a varroa infested area wishes to send queens to a (presumed) non infested area, can the queen and the accompanying workers be examined with magnification prior to dispatch to ensure that these bees at least do not have the varroa mites?. If it is a proposition, then obviously the time taken to do this would have to be taken into account in determining the price. As I said, maybe it is a crazy idea - what do the members of the list think?. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:56:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Misuse of strips (was Disposing of Bavarol and Apistan) In-Reply-To: <199908270131.VAA08949@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I was glad to see Jim Bach's post on the disposal of Apistan and Bavarol. Move over Jim, there's more room on that soapbox! I too find it "appalling that beekeepers, and so-called beekeeping gurus often misuse chemicals...." You missed one Jim. It is the same beekeepers and gurus who lament when the misused chemicals are no longer effective! On Aug 23 Dave Eyre wrote that opening a hive in the snow to remove strips is ill advised. > a split cluster has a major problem getting back together and re-organising. > The usual thinking regarding the removal of 'Happy Stan' after 45 days is to > prevent resistant mites, but I don't believe they will form over one winter. > I had to leave our strips in last year and we've had no problems. As an > aside when Varroa first hit Ontario it was advised to leave the strips in for > the first winter! I heard a New York State bee inspector say that he too left his strips in through the winter, couldn't get to his hives through the snow. The very same bee inspector is one of the chorus now singing the blues about Apistan resistence, bring on the coumophos! They just don't get it! Dave is correct, resistence is not a one season event. Resistence is a gradual evolution of the mites to become immune. It doesn't happen in one winter, but if happens faster if one winter is followed by another winter and a general disregard of the label instructions that say take the stips out after 45 days. No amount of reasoning or justification changes the label. It was snowy, I didn't want to break my clusters, I had an ingrown toenail, don't worry, the label doesn't know what it's talking about, leave them in until next spring. THAT is the ill advice! Passing on that sort of advice also hastens the day when the treatments are no longer effective. One beekeeper in NY (a state official no less) tells a GROUP MEETING(!) that he misused strips and noticed no ill effects. One (or perhaps many) beekeepers tell beekeepers in Ontario that they heard you can leave strips in all winter with no ill effects and Ontario beekeepers shout the word far and wide that you can leave the strips in all winter with no ill effects. They've done so, left 'em in last winter and saw no ill effects. Soon beekeepers everywhere are disregarding the label. Their eyes see, "Remove the strips in 45 days" and their brain regiusters, "Put 'em in in the fall, take 'em out in the spring." Then we quietly start hearing rumors that apistan resistence is starting to crop up here and there. The producers of Apistan start an agressive marketing campaign to drive home the fact that if you misuse the strips resistence will result. And SUDDENLY, Apistan resistence is everywhere! Bring on the coumophos! 45 days is 45 days. What is it about that sentence that is vague? The label is the label. Is that so redundant that it cannot be understood? James Bach is correct, don't ask the questions here, you'll get all sorts of ill advice. Read the label. Got questions? Read the label. More questions? Call the manufacturer. Aaron Morris - thinking THAT'S how to be terse. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:59:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Please diagnose my bee problems! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi, Well I have been following this thread with some interest. To me it does not sound like pesticide damage but varroa mite as was mentioned earlier but seems to have lost favor. You said that you had 4 varroa mites on an ether roll test with about 40 bees. A normal ether roll sample is about 300 bees so if you had 4 varroa for 50 bees you would have had 24 varroa on a standard 300 bee ether roll test. By most counts this is a pretty significant varroa population. Most of the damage you are seeing is due to the viruses the mites are vectoring in the colony - you described a pretty typical case of parasitic mite syndrome ( PMS ). You could try treating for varroa but if the bee population is too low it may be too late to save the colony. Of course the only way you will learn for sure if it is too late to save them it to try. Good luck. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:47:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gothoney@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Menthol Crystals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try stapling them within cheap screen material, the large the longer to propolis time! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:14:43 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bee club Subject: collecting feral Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have tried to get feral hives out of places where I cannot access the combs, but using smoke to get then to come out does not usually work. I was wondering about if I could somehow use "bee go" to get then to come out the hive. (I do not know the regulations on using "bee go".) Justin Knight ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: highplains@midmo.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Terry Reynolds Organization: High Plains Subject: confusion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm getting ready to do my fall treatment with apistan and menthol crystals. I harvested my honey the first of august, put the supers back on the hives to let the bees clean them. My confusion concerns fall removal of these extra supers with such large colonies of bees. At what point do i remove them to avoid having excess population of bees for my double deep hive bodies, or is this nothing to be concerned about? patty in central missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:30:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: collecting feral Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Justin Knight wrote: > I have tried to get feral hives out of places where I cannot access the > combs, but using smoke to get then to come out does not usually work. > > I was wondering about if I could somehow use "bee go" to get then to come > out the hive. (I do not know the regulations on using "bee go".) **************** For the bees to abandon the feral hive location, the queen has to leave and she is not likely to leave her home. Try searching the Bee-L archives for advice on capturing feral colonies. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:23:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Menthol Crystals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Scott wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions on a good way to treat a hive with > menthol crystals and preventing the bee's from propalizing the crystals, > so they can evaporate properly. ********** I tried hanging the menthol crystals, in a piece of nylon stocking, from a loop of string that draped across the middle of an empty hive body on top of the colony. The string was stapled to the the top edges of the empty hive body to make a trapeze for hanging the menthol. My theory was that the bees would have more difficulty finding and propolizing something that was not in contact with the frames. Results? The weather in SE Pennsylvania does not get warm enough in autumn to flood the colony with menthol so I never tested this on a colony that was flooded with vapor. The menthol was not propolized. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:14:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: collecting feral Hives In-Reply-To: <199908271543.LAA27503@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I was wondering about if I could somehow use "bee go" to get then to come > > out the hive. (I do not know the regulations on using "bee go".) > For the bees to abandon the feral hive location, the queen has to > leave and she is not likely to leave her home. I think this 'answer' is just guessing, and I would like to hear from those who have actually tried it. It think such a method could work in some cases if the plan was thought out well ahead of time and properly executed. It is possible to drive all the bees out of a normal beehive with a repellant like BeeGo if one is not careful, and judicious use of such repellants can be applied when trying to drive the queen down when moving the excluder down on a beehive from a higher up position, so I can't see why it could not work to run the queen out of a feral hive if one is methodical, and lucky. I cannot see any reason why success could not be achieved, if the feral hive is laid out in a way that lends itself to having all the bees driven out -- as opposed to having them all driven further in further or just to running around inside at random, dazed from the fumes. Having some brood comb near the entrance from which they are driven would help, and, further, if the queen could walk on brood comb all the way, it would be even better. Some caveats: * BeeGo requires the correct temperature range to work, * Bees are sensitive to concentrations of fumes. Too little and they do not move, too much and they just get dopey or run around in any direction. * Don't ever use BeeGo anywhere where people have to live, such as the walls of a dwelling. Let us know if you can figure out a way to make it work. BTW, if they are in a cavity that can be filled with water and which can have a hole drilled at the very top, they can be flooded out the top. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:22:41 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hugo Aguirre Subject: Portland Area Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear friends: During september I'll spend some days (from 3rd to 11th) at Camas, Wash., located in Portland Area, would like to visit with beekeepers and bee bussines people (packers, producers, apiarists, suppliers) If some from BEE-L wants to help me, please send details to my private e-mail. Dr. Hugo Aguirre Med. Cirujano Apicultor Apiterapista Rivadavia 285 Tf-Fx 054 3562 466876 C-E: hugoagui@sanguillermo.com.ar San Guillermo-STA FE- Argentina (30ºS-60ºO) **************************************************************************** ************ -¦- Miel dura es miel pura -¦- -¦- El azúcar endulza; la miel endulza, nutre y da salud -¦- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:15:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: re disposing of varroa strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James I invited criticism and stated the back was broad, good job it is. You are perfectly correct, all chemicals are potentially hazardous if misused and generally I preach along the same lines as you, i.e. use four strips (Bayvarol) for a full size colony and don't be a D.I.Y. chemist and suddenly, in order to save money, change that number to two, or seal the package with sticky tape, or even as I know was being practised locally (not by me I hasten to add), cutting a corner off after the first use, and each strip has four corners. All totally irresponsible. But you are incorrect in assuming that the manufacturers recommendations are the same for Bayvarol as Apistan, maybe even the regulations between countries varies. Although I have used Apistan strips in the past I generally use Bayvarol being nearly as cheap and more easily available. Bayer state, and I quote, "The strips should be left in the colonies for a maximum of six weeks and then removed". I would have like to emphasise the word "colonies", but cannot in plain text format, as I would do nothing other than to support that statement simply to avoid possible mite resistance to the chemicals. Bayer also state that "ideally the strips should not be used during peak honey flow periods" but continue further down the literature that for diagnosis or severe infestations they may be used at anytime, and "no withdrawal period for honey is required regardless of when in the year Bayvarol is used". From conversations I have had with Bayers they have confirm this statement stating there is virtually nil detectable levels of the chemical flumethrin found in honey. My suggestion was to use them in stored supers which obviously contain no honey, no bees present leading to resistance, the only problem that might arise is cut comb honey supers as the chemical can be absorbed by the wax, but surely those combs are on the supermarket shelves and not stored inviting wax moth infestations. And the suggestion I posted that used varroacide (maybe I ought have confined my suggestion to Bayvarol) strips might be hung in stacks of supers to kill or deter wax moths I consider is NOT irresponsible. You are the scientist, I live in the world of the real beekeeper and struggle hard, I believe, to encourage them to use strips at all and if by suggesting an added incentive maybe even you might change your mind that my mailing is not totally out of order (my words, not yours). Two final points I would like to add. Personally as a hobbyist beekeeper I consider my super combs are 'food containers' and will not allow brood to be reared in them. If a delinquent queen should decide to move into them any such combs are destroyed at the end of the season, or scraped back to the midrib. This action prevents the depositing of the larval skins which I believe is a major part of the diet of wax moth larvae, without them you get little wax moth (as I think has been promoted many times in these pages). So for once I cannot say I practice what I preached, the intention was to encourage use of varroa strips as far too many colonies are dying locally for failing to do so. The second point is that when acting as your projectionist at the BBKA Stoneleigh Convention a few years ago I never got the same 'ear bashing' when I put the slides in the wrong order. Thank you James for your comments, I must admit generally I totally agree with your sentiments. Ken Hoare bees@kenlia.enta.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:41:59 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Please diagnose my bee problems! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dar Heinze asks for help. Those members who replied raised some good issues. Here is how I would analyze her problem. Symptoms: 1. strange symptoms (not commonly seen) 2. number of bees have been decreasing 3. bees spending a lot of time removing dead bees from within the hive 4. the bees aren't completely dead, they still wiggle for an hour or so 5. 40 bees rolled with ethyl acetate revealed 3 Varroa (4 mites/50 bees = 24 for 300 bees in an ether roll sample?) 6. it was difficult to get more than 40 bees for the test because the bees were spread out on the combs 7. HBTM analysis was unsuccessful (mites probably present at some level) 8. one hive had few bees, not much brood, and a bad brood pattern 9. dead pupae, or maybe larvae in white puddles in the cells, turning grayish The list suspects: a. AFB, an immature bee disease b. EFB c. colony collapse from Varroa d. 4-6 Varroa per ether roll is OK at this time of the year because treatment will begin soon e. 4 mites in an ether roll and almost always dead larvae is seen in the brood f. something toxic is taking a little time to kill the adults, who get it to the hive, into the stomach of the nurse bees, and then to the larvae g. this could be a contact poison coming in with the pollen or something in the nectar h. a pesticide on flowering plants i. brood affected by heat, not enough adult bees to keep the hive temperature regulated j. look at bee behavior at the hive entrance k. bees bringing poison back into the hive I would ask Dar the following questions assuming that tracheal and varroa mites are present in all her colonies: Are your hives in a residential or agricultural area? Here in Washington State bee colonies aren't even moderately damaged or killed by garden sprays in residential areas. Such damage may occur in areas bordering on agricultural areas if there are crops or weeds that are attractive to bees which may also be sprayed for pests. How many total colonies do you have? Were they overwintered in '98-'99? How many problems colonies are you talking about? What is their history? How long has their population been decreasing? How many dead bees are lying about at the hive entrance? Were these problem colonies overwintered colonies? If so did you requeen the colonies with marked queens? What was the queen source or strain? The answers would tell me if an old queen may have swarmed and maybe was not successfully replaced by the colony. If she requeened, then I would suspect a poor queen that may have failed with an unsuccessful replacement effort by the colony. Were these colonies splits or nucs made this spring, or packaged bees installed this spring? If so the queen(s) may have failed over several weeks or months with an unsuccessful attempt by the colony to requeen itself. If they were splits, nucs, or packages, when were they purchased? This would tell me something about the expected size of the colony at this time of year, thus about the extent of the damage Dar is seeing. How long has the marked queen been absent from the colony(s)? How long have you noticed the dead and dying brood? How long since you last worked the colony? The answers to the above questions would enable us to give a much more accurate list of potential answers to Dar's problem. But since we don't have the answers, I will postulate the following from my many years of observations and discussions with beekeepers here in Washington State, USA. I will list them from most likely to least likely. 1. If the problem colonies are over wintered colonies without having been requeened, then I suspect swarming, poor queen quality, Varroa, and tracheal mites in that order. 2. If they are nucs then I strongly suspect poor queen quality, Varroa, and tracheal mites. 3. If Dar lives in a residential area I don't suspect pesticide damage. 4. If Dar lives close (1-2 miles) to an agricultural area then I might (!) also suspect a pesticide loss if all colonies are somewhat affected. 4. The dead and dying brood (like EFB) suggests the colony has been under-strength for a long time (2-3 months). This was caused by a poor queen and nurse bees not properly feeding larvae. 5. The dead and dying bees can result from lack of food and a deteriorating colony organization. A spotty brood pattern is the result. It is often seen with a failing queen as older brood hatches. I don't suspect AFB because the dying brood is the wrong color. I don't suspect EFB because the colony is deteriorating. EFB symptoms are usually seen in the spring not in the summer or fall. It is rare (I think) to have a colony die from EFB. Four to six Varroa in an ether roll (300 bees - maybe several thousand in the whole colony) from a colony of the strength I expect at this time of year (20 deep Langstroth combs of bees) will result in heavy bee loss in the colony even if treatment is begun immediately. Some adult bee damage may be visible. The high Varroa count is the result of a shrinking colony population which causes the mite per bee count to go up. Dar's difficulty in getting more than 40 bees because the bees were spread out on the comb suggests a) a weak colony, b) runny bees,and c) a poor queen producing low levels of pheromones resulting in a deteriorating colony organization. I have seen the EFB-like dead and dying larvae in colonies since 1969, long before the arrival of mites in Washington (1983-87). These EFB-like/"PMS") symptoms were associated with queens without retinues, bees not observed feeding or tending larvae, noisy colonies ("queenless roar"), runny bees, colonies that didn't cluster properly at 50-60 F., colonies with obvious lack of organization and cohesiveness, and colonies that absconded in late fall at first frost. I have also seen it in colonies with less than 13 percent tracheal mites and Varroa levels between 50 and 1,200 per colony after two days of treatment with Apistan and sticky boards, in late August. Dar's solution options if her problem colonies are less than 20 combs of bees now: 1. Do not combine the problem colonies with each other. The mite levels and queen problems will defeat all efforts to get the colonies through the winter. Combining with strong colonies will only complicate the strong colony organization and spread mites. 2. Fill a five gallon pail half full with warm water. Add 1/4 cup of dish detergent and stir. Shake all bees from problem colonies into the soapy water. Bury the bees or strain them out of the water into a garbage bag and put them with household waste. 3. Remove honey supers from strong colonies (16 to 20 combs of bees) and begin Coumaphos or Apistan treatment (yesterday), using sticky boards with screens to monitor Varroa levels. I wish Dar, and other beekeepers with similar problems, much success in analyzing and resolving their problems. Feel free to e-mail me, or the list, if you have further questions or observations, or care to respond to all the questions I've asked above. Some day I should publish a diagnostic list that beekeepers could use in the apiary. Some day. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:14:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Flowcharting beekeeping solutions - was Please diagnose my bee problems! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All James C Bach has IMHO given a masterful account of how Dar should go about solving her problem. James says at the end of his post: >Some day I should publish a diagnostic list that beekeepers could use in the >apiary. I have been of the opinion for some time that the solution to the vast majority of beekeeping problems can be presented in the form of a flow chart much like we use in designing computer software. Such a chart would be of great benefit especially to beginners. If what James wrote could be set out in the form of a flow chart, it would be much easier to read. But the problem is, the time it takes to research and set out all possible branches in the decision tree. There are many products now on the market which can greatly assist in putting such a chart together. Visio comes to mind immediately. But the essential ingredient, in my opinion, is a beekeeper with the beekeeping skills and experience, together with a logical mind to identify and chart all possibilities. Has anybody done any work in this direction? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:15:58 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Misuse of strips In-Reply-To: <199908271243.IAA22417@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 27 Aug 99, at 7:56, Aaron Morris wrote: > I was glad to see Jim Bach's post on the disposal of Apistan and Bavarol. > Move over Jim, there's more room on that soapbox! Soapbox? A pulpit might be more appropiate! It must be nice to live in a world of absolute black and white, no half measures or if and what if? In my world of greys and off whites there has to be areas to manouver in. In my case I made certain to state that I knew it to be wrong to leave strips in all winter with no intention of repeating it this year, but in your world of B&W it would state 'leave them out'. Save years of hard work and selection and my bees of course, or leave the strips out and watch them die! Be honest Aaron, faced with those two choices I know which one you would choose. A little less pontificating and more honesty? > > I too find it "appalling that beekeepers, and so-called beekeeping gurus > often misuse chemicals...." > One (or perhaps many) beekeepers tell beekeepers in Ontario that they > heard you can leave strips > in all winter with no ill effects and Ontario beekeepers shout the word > far and wide that you can leave the strips in all winter with no ill > effects. They've done so, left 'em in last winter and saw no ill effects. Not strictly correct. We were advised, during the first onslaught of Varroa crossing the border, that the hives would be swamped with incoming Varroa mites from other collapsing hives in the area. With this in mind and the fact that robbing takes place well into frost time it was decided that leaving strips in would help kill these late arrivals. In practice this is what happened to us last year, long after the golden rod was gone we were finding signs of varroa still coming into the hives. Too many grey areas!!!!!! ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:15:58 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Checking Queens for varroa In-Reply-To: <199908271203.IAA21123@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 27 Aug 99, at 12:58, Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > Suppose a Queen Breeder in a varroa infested area wishes to send queens to > a (presumed) non infested area, can the queen and the accompanying workers > be examined with magnification prior to dispatch to ensure that these bees > at least do not have the varroa mites?. If it is a proposition, then > obviously the time taken to do this would have to be taken into account in > determining the price. It has often been written, 'remove the workers first'. This being the case you'll get rid of any varroa on the workers. Once or twice subscribers have stated 'never seen varroa on a queen'. Finally there used to be available 'queen tabs'. Small Apistan strips designed to be used in the queen cages. Not sure if they were effective or not. Comments anyone? Anything that increases the work load should increase the price, but as a queen breeder, and knowing the logistics involved I doubt if this is a feasible proposition. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:21:28 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Flowcharting beekeeping solutions - was Please diagnose my bee problems! In-Reply-To: <199908280320.XAA16315@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Somewhere back in my copies of things (or at least in journals that I know how to access) I have something along those lines. Published in the 1930s, created by Percy Hillary - Sir Edmund Hillary's father! Yes, many/most beekeeping operations can be structured and organised in ways. Makes for very interesting conversations when you try picking it apart to decide how/if you differ in the analysis... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... NZ Bkpg: Composition of the Industry? Email to: comp@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:58:05 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Swarming Instinct Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Quick question. Do the workers, or the queen decide it is time to >swarm? I fancy there are almost as many answers to this question as there are subscribers to Bee-L. FWIW, from my reading and 10 years experience, the hive makes a decision to swarm. The triggers are a plentiful nectar/pollen source, large population of bees and lack of storage space for honey. However all factors do not have to be present for a hive to swarm and in some seasons hive will throw swarm after swarm until they are down to a handful of bees. It is possible to reverse the swarming decision and I found L.E. Snelgrove's book "Swarming - its control and prevention" fascinating. There are different methods depending on whether queen cells have been sealed or are still unsealed. After several readings I decided the basic principle was "To prevent swarming, separate the queen and any potential queens from the field bees." This can be done by Demaree boards, various dividers, changing hive position, temporary placement of queen and unsealed brood in nucleus for later uniting, depending on your time and interest. R.E. Snelgrove considered it took 7 days for the swarming instinct to be reversed, although it will be triggered again by favourable conditions. My basic rule of thumb is that the hive will swarm when the queen ceases to lay for any reason. The nurse bees then have no larvae of the right age to feed and the hive seeks corrective action. The queen may cease to lay because of a sudden failure of nectar flow into the hive, by not enough room due to the frames being filled with brood or honey, she is trapped in one section of the hive, recently introduced or whatever. The pause in laying may only be for 1 day but the hive may still move into swarming mode. My swarm prevention starts with placing 2 empty brood frames in the brood box and removing any fully sealed honey frames. I continue to do this during the season at any time the brood box is filled with either sealed brood or honey. If I find queen cells I separate the queen and unsealed brood from the field bees by using a divider, with field bees using the entrance and a separate entrance for nurse bees. The queen will then destroy the queen cells without further intervention. This does not always work. However it is far more effective than attempting to destroy every queen cell. As long as the hive is in swarm mode, the bees will continue to start queens. In answer to your other question, when the hive is in swarm mode, or when the queen is failing, the bees will start queen cells from freshly hatched worker larvae. These are usually started on consecutive days leaving the hive some flexibility in the timetable. Supersedure cells are usually 2 or 3 to the hive where swarm cells may be about 10 - 15. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Gerald L Barbor" Subject: Diagnostics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/28 Tom Barrett addressed the need for a diagnostic flow chart for bee diseases. Penn State University has such a program (BEE AWARE) which can be found at the following site: http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/beeaware.html Jerry in PA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:02:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NOSEMA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is fairly easy to test for nosema. All you need is a microscope giving 400x magnification and some bees. You will probably find some. Nosema is endemic (at least in the UK) but usually only becomes a problem when the colony has some other stress as well. Try finding and eliminating other stress factors and moving the colony onto new comb or old comb that has been fumigated with 80 per cent acetic acid as soon as you can. Fumagillin on its own won't work as the bees will become re-infected as soon as they clean up old comb with the nosema spores on it. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@fuse.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy and Dave Subject: Reversing Hive Bodies Comments: To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Need some help, please. I have searched the archives and most references to reversing hive bodies concerns spring reverses. We checked our 4H hive and the bees, brood, queen, were in the second brood box. The first brood box (counting from the bottom board up) contained cappped honey, no brood. This is not a real strong hive, it was a package with foundation in April. And not much in the way of flows or pollen this summer. But the bees have drawn out both of the brood boxes. We had a honey super as the third box, the bees had drawn it out but there is no honey. Could be that they have already moved it down. We placed Apistan and Menthol. Removed the super. AND we reversed the hive bodies. Talked about it all the way home. Neither of us is sure if we should have done so. We can always drive back over tomorrow and undue our damage, if that is what we did? As a side note, we were called to retrieve a swarm hanging from a tree in the cemetery. Apparently there have been bees in a hollow tree there since May. And now they have swarmed. The swarm was probably less than a pound. Not enough time left to get them built up so we will just combine them with a weak hive. Our experience last year with the yellow jackets taught us not to try to build up a swarm when the yellow jackets are after sweets. Judy in Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:38:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarming Instinct MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott: Since the workers "control" the queen by the amount they FEED her, and the number of cells they POLISH for her to lay in, most apian scientists feel that the queen is under total control by her workers. This resembles the Queen of England who basically has no power and Parliament runs the country. Swarming at this time of year is most unusual, except bees that are VERY HUNGRY due to lack of stores. Then swarming is a DESPERATION effort. Be aware of the fact that swarming indicates general DIS-satisfaction with existing living conditions: brood chamber congestion, excess heat, lack of shade, poor queen performance (lack of queen pheromone), bothered continuously by pests, and all those other things that is out of their normal living mode. I hope I have helped. George ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: heritage.hollow@sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: TED & JOAN PICHURSKI Organization: Heritage Hollow Honey and Herbs Subject: Bee Tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been offered several seedling trees that are favoured by bees. I've not seen them but the trees are described as having pendulous small purple flowers (sort of like lilacs) and reseed readily. The grower doesn't know what they are called in English but says they are very common in Europe. The name sounds like 'au-gou-sta'(?) in German. I quite enjoy watching my bees at home work and would welcome another forage source. - But don't want to end of with 20 acres of strange 'trees' and pounds of even stranger honey. Any beekeeper/horticulturalists that may have an identity? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:16:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: EARMAILS Subject: Nass Valley Beequeen In-Reply-To: <199908271441.KAA25864@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi. I am new to the list. I have become the resident beekeeper of the family since my husband decided he was too busy for his hobby. They are his bees but I had to take over. I muddle my way through as best as can be. Something always goes wrong, never fails. Presently we have four hives out behind in the chickenyard, and hubby and me have been having hissyfits daily since he is supposed to get the beehouse into shape for the winter, but he is too busy, and I gotta have that thing ready pretty soon, as soon as I decide that I want to move them back to the beehouse for the winter. The summer has been really lousy and wet and cold most times so I don't have much hope for a harvest and just hope they have enough storage for the winter. Usually I have to feed them like crazy from September on. I am no expert but always have an opinion. I also have a real life donkey, then there is a pony and a mare. We have chickens, ducks, a goose, dogs, cats, and live in coexistence with grizzlies, black bears, moose, and wolves. We are both working at a school on the nearby Indian village. And when at home we are working on our place. Always something to do. So I am not a very serious beekeeper but I am the selfappointed beequeen of the Nass Valley. This tiny corner of the world has none of those varroa mites yet but now they have shown up in Terrace BC too (approx. 100 km south of us). I am the only beekeeper in the valley. There are no other honeybees around here. Ma. / Nass Valley - British Columbia CANADA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:39:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AdamsHonCo@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Misuse of strips (was Disposing of Bavarol and Apistan) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't advocate misuse of the labels or being stupid but I do wish all of you that are perfect ( which make your dollars to live, eat, pay taxes, and operate a business on other things than beekeeping ) were in some of the shoes of us that do. You operate on 42 cents honey , low ballers in the pollination end and the high prices of things such as bayer strips and see how you try to survive and take care of your family and bees, throw in the unkown of beetle beekeeping and then see how things look from the other end looking up at your glass houses. David Adams ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:18:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) lindena from arc3a43.bf.sover.net [209.198.81.107] 209.198.81.107 Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:18:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: New Crop Honey! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello! Greetings from Alstead, NH, USA! I'm finally finished with the first round of honey extraction at Linden Apiaries. The result is nearly 1200 lbs. (540 kg.) of very fine-flavored honey! It's remarkably light-yellow for this area, which fact I would tend to attribute to the drought. Shallow rooted plants suffered, but plants such as Tartarian honeysuckle (Lonicera japonica), raspberries and blackberries (Rubus spp.), basswood (Tilia americana), small-leaf linden (T. cordata), silver linden (T. tomentosa), and alfalfa (Medicago sativa), the latter with roots over 100 feet deep, still produced some honey, especially as farmers awaited growth before cutting. Dandelion (Taraxacum officinale), is another light honey that didn't produce as much as it can, but the weather was favorable during the bloom. Purple loosestrife (Lythrum salicaria) is becoming more of a factor in the Connecticut River Valley, especially after last years floods, which spread the seed around and promoted germination. It is only a maintenance flow at present, keeping hives from losing weight during the normal “dearth” time, which is July 15-August 15. Last year there was no dearth due to the rain, and then good weather during the dearth time. I suspect it helped out last year, also. There was a lot of white dutch clover (Trifolium repens) due to last year's rainy spell which allowed good germination. It is a biennial. I believe it contributed more in the way of pollen in the area, as there were times in July when it’s brown pollen dominated in the pollen “trap” drawers. Drought also affected pollen production, so I had to collect for 3 months to get 475 lbs. (215 kg.) compared to last year’s 508 lbs. (230 kg.) which came in only half the time! What a difference rain can make! Now Japanese knotweed or bamboo (Polygonum cuspidatum), of the buckwheat family, is starting to become attractive to the bees. I don’t think the drought will affect it too much, due to it’s growing along waterways, and it ’s deep, tuberous root system. It may not break 1998’s Linden Apiaries record for 24-hour production of one colony on a platform scale. From 7:15 PM on September 5 until 7:15 PM on September 6, a two-queen colony at my house gained 19.25 lbs. (8.7 kg.)! Other 24h gains for the day were 16.75 lbs. (7.6 kg.), 15. (7 kg.), and for 48 hours I recorded 19.75 (9 kg.) and 28.75 lb. (13 kg.) gains. The best yard (Paul Harlow’s) had a 6-day gain of 67.75 lbs. (30.7 kg.)! I have a total of 6 scale hives in 5 yards. My previous record was 18 lbs (8.2 kg.) during the bamboo flow of 1996. I’m hoping that the weather will be favorable, as I have a lot of light hives right now that could use a good “fall” flow, as it is called. We rarely get a true fall flow, but I can recall one year when I was surprised by good gains in late September, when only Asters (Aster spp.) were blooming. My area doesn’t have sufficient goldenrod (Solidago spp.) to give more than a 1-2 lb. (.5-1 kg.) gain per day. Now the honey and pollen are in the freezer. Neither is ever heated, to preserve the enzymes and apitherapeutic activity. The cappings wax is still draining. Later I’ll make candles to replenish my supply. The bees have collected propolis during the slow time. Feel free to write or call if you are interested in my natural, immune-stimulating, bee products. I have additional information that I can email at your request. Have a great summer (or winter in the Southern Hemisphere!) Best regards, Charles F. Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Beekeeping Supplies Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-’89 1 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 USA/EUA 603-756-9056 Residence: Latitude: 43° 05’ North, Longitude: 72° 21’ 15" West, Elevation 1200’ Keeper of 41 two-queen colonies and one 4-queen colony for honey, pollen, propolis, pollination, nuclei, beeswax, apitherapy, and education Learn, experiment, innovate, educate! Charles Frederic Andros July 13, 1999 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:40:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Francis Subject: Shack'n up the goils MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have three hives, that I plan to winter, when it becomes winter here in Kentucky (US). I want to put them in an old shed on my property. I know this has many advntages - any caveats . . . or are there any suggestions to maximize the benefits of doing this - At what temperature would you recommend doing this. If you'll respond privately, I'll be glad to put in digest form for the list. Thank you so much for your help. John Leslie Francis Program Director, WEKU "Great Music and NPR News" E-mail: dmrfranc@acs.eku.edu/www.weku.org* Phone: 606.622.1657 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:54:54 -0600 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: collecting feral Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Having tried BeeGo on a feral hive which housed itself in a large (dangerous) cottonwood, I found BeeGo will only motivate a few bees to the air. My experiment revealed most bees will not leave the hive no matter what concentration of BeeGo. There may have been movement up or down the hive but BeeGo had no real effect to drive bees from their home - other than the enraged few whom didn't approve of the experiment. If you're not able to remove the comb, try using a one-way bee cone with a waiting hive placed at the entrance. Searching Bee-L for "bee removal" or similar should show posts on particulars of this method. Matthew Westall - Earthling Bees - Castle Rock, CO > > I was wondering about if I could somehow use "bee go" to get then to > come > out the hive. (I do not know the regulations on using "bee go".) > Justin Knight ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:52:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: EARMAILS Subject: Re: Reversing Hive Bodies In-Reply-To: <199908281539.LAA25238@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ((( Removed the super. AND we reversed the hive bodies. Neither of us is sure if we should have done so. )))) Empty honey super ->>> we would remove it too this time of year (we are way up north and will have to get them winter ready soon). Brood box was up and honey box was down ->>> we would have reversed them too so that then the box with the brood is below the box with the honey. The queen has to be moved down into the brood box to continue her egg laying in there. She should not be on top of the honey box. She belongs below. Ma. / Nass Valley - British Columbia CANADA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:32:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Swarming Instinct Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This thread on "swarming instinct" has held interest for many. Permit me to insert a new idea. Some of us who have engaged in migratory beekeeping, where yards of bees are moved from one low elevation to a high elevation (and vice-versa), have noticed that colonies suddenly moved from an area with little income into an area with a sudden surplus of income often swarm almost immediately. For example, a high percentage of colonies moved from the California Sacramento Valley (very low elevation) in late May or early June (long after the swarming season in that area) up to the 5000 foot level would often begin to prepare for swarming. That behavior permits us to eliminate photoperiod as a stimulus (same photoperiod each place) and too little room (they have not yet began to become too short of room). MANY years ago I suspected that a sudden ACCELERATION of income could be responsible for the initiation of swarming. As I understand matters, the Central Valley of California often has two swarm periods during the season, a major one in early spring, and a minor one late in the summer. Both times coincide with the rather abrupt appearance of nectar flows. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ****** * * "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" * * An old saying * **************************************************************************** ******