From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:28 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27381 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11152 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11152@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:21 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9909A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 242679 Lines: 5124 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:46:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: News article about epinepherine kit recall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the AP news The allergy kit recall affects: Derm/Buro Insect-Sting Treatment Kits with the lot numbers 0397, 0497, 0597, 8141, 8139, 11464, 13239. The products were distributed between June 1997 and February 1999. Also affected: Ana-Kits with lot numbers AK344 through AK363 and lot AK366, and Ana-Guard with lot numbers G00196 through G00220, and lots G00222 and G00223. They were distributed by Bayer between April 1997 and April 1998. I will forward the whole article to anyone who asks me. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:49:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Emergency Queen Cells and Ageing Grubs Comments: To: alan.riach@which.net In-Reply-To: <199908311100.HAA04482@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Certainly in an emergency I've seen the bees building queen cells around > anything from new laid eggs to 4 day old grubs. I've seen them building on drone larvae, but that is not typical. You might like to check out the references I posted recently (just before you wrote) regarding the ages of larvae selected for emergency queens. One was >>>Punnett, E. N. and Winston, M. L. Events following queen removal in colonies of European-derived honey bee races (Apis mellifera). Insectes Sociaux (1983) 30 (4) 376-383 [En, fr, B] The timing of queen rearing and swarming are described after queens were removed from colonies of European-derived honeybee races in Canada. Queen cell construction began within one day of queen loss, and 91% of the queens which emerged were eggs at the time of queens loss. Queen cells Were evenly distributed over the comb face, and 4% of the brood reared as queens were moved from worker cells to queen cups... (truncated for brevity)<<< > Anyone got any idea of the oldest grub that will > produce a functioning queen? Depends what you call 'functioning'. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:38:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Apitherapy in Vancouver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have been asked to send you the following message by Stefan Stangaciu who is well known as an apitherapist. > The most important apitherapy and beekeeping event of the year is >coming fast! > > There are only 12-13 days until the opening ceremony... > > All of you who will come in Vancouver and wish to participate in our Workshop: "Apitherapy for beekeepers. Practical advises." please >send me a private e-mail. > I will be more than happy to reserve a place for you in the room where >the workshop will be held. > > I believe, I hope, it will be pretty crowded on the evening of >September 16th... so please hurry-up to confirm your participation! > > > Yours, > > Stefan Stangaciu > apither@gmb.ro Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:03:10 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Australian Honey Bee Industry Council (AHBIC), the peak industry body for beekeeping in Australia, has now set up a website. It is www.honeybee.org.au. If you are interested in beekeeping in Australia have a look. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 05:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Francis Subject: Shack'n up . . . Recap MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WOW! About a week ago, I posted a query given the thread "Shack'n up the = goils" I said I would give answers in digest form. Here 'tis as = promised. Hit if you don't care about the subject - the answers = were many and lengthy. I asked . . .=20 I have three hives, that I plan to winter, when it becomes winter here = in Kentucky (US). I want to put them in an old shed on my property. I = know this has many advntages (sic) - any caveats . . . or are there any = suggestions to maximize the benefits of doing this - At what temperature = would you recommend doing this. Al Wrote: I caught your post about sheltering your hives for the winter and = noticed your KY location. I'm in SE IL, about an hour from Paducah KY, = and haven't seen the need for that level of protection,given our mild winters. I know KY is a loooong state, but from one end to the other I = wouldn't expect the winters to vary all that much.=20 Anyway, if you are really determined to do this, I'll check with a = fellow I know in Spokane WA who shelters his bees during the winter to = see if he'd be interested in sharing some tips.=20 I do think given our climate in this area, you might do more harm than = good. The bees, if kept warm, will be much more active and will consume = their winter stores more quickly. String and Linda Monteith replied: Why in the shed? I kept bees outside in Northern Kentucky (12 miles NW = of Falmouth). They wintered just fine outside on the top of a ridge. = Is there a reason, other than the cold, that you want to move them inside? Linda = (now in Ohio & still wintering outside with no special protection) Ted Fischer stated:=20 I cannot imagine any advantage of moving bees indoors anywhere in = Kentucky, or for that matter much farther north than that. My = grandfather used to move bees indoors in the Green Bay area of Wisconsin, but gave that up as being = far too much work for little or no advantage. Here in southeastern = Michigan I have never so much as wrapped my hives for the 21 years I have had bees, and = unless mites or some other disaster st\rikes they do just fine. They = basically need protection from the wind, adequate ventilation and food, and a strong = queen. >From Marc Studebaker: The weather in KY allows for many cleansing flights thoughout the winter = and I would recommend leaving your hives at there present location. You = should prepare for winter by treating colonies for disease, provide an upper = entrance, reduce the entrance, get the hive up 8" from the ground and = make sure they have enough stores. Usually only beekeepers in the far = north winter there hive in buildings. >From a Virginnie beekeep: I would echo these thoughts for central Piedmont Virginia. I've never = found winter to be a problem for the bees and what you speak of sounds like a = great deal of work for very little return. Besides, you would need to move = them far away at first, let them acclimate to that area and then a week or = two later move them back again. As the old saying goes, you can move them an = inch or five miles - not much inbetween. My advice would be to save your = energy. Allen Dick responded: Like a lot of old sayings [previous post from Virginia], this one is = baloney. There is an element of truth in it and it is for rank = beginners, so they will not get themselves into trouble. Sorta like = 'Don't touch the stove or you'll burn yourself'. Adults touch stoves and don't burn themselves. Any knowledgeable = beekeeper moves hives anywhere he/she likes by observing bee behaviour and knowing = when a move will cause confusion and when it will not. Generally, any time the = bees have not been flying much -- or preferably at all -- for a few days, you = can do pretty well as you please, if you take a few precautions. There is lots of discussion in the archives under moving bees and = observation hives. Here's one I hadn't thought about . . .=20 This thread has been deleted often because it resembles so much of the = Porn Mail that abounds on the internet. ("Butt-Naked insects" will be my next = thread, sorry about the double-entendre)=20 =20 Skip and Christy Hensler wrote: After reading the other replies your received on this post I was going to lurk due to feeling that I really had nothing better to add to the subject. However, Al Litherland, a good friend of mine from sci.ag.bee.etc. wrote and asked me to relate what little experience I had on the subject to you. First of all, 99% of the replies you receive on this subject will advise you to *not* winter your bees inside at your latitude, and I will add my name to that list. Having said that, I *do* winter my few hives in a root cellar and even with our winters I am consider somewhat strange around here for doing so. I always wait until what I consider as being the very last minute before moving them in, usually based on the local weather report and most always sometime in Dec. I move them back out just as early as I can, again based on the weather reports and usually in early Feb. As an aside, a local beekeeper friend of mine tried to put his under a lean-to one year in order to keep the snow off the hives. He ended up losing most of the bees as they tried to land on *top* of the roof when coming in from their cleansing flights... About once in every five winters we will get down to at least -20 and usually have a 20 mph or so wind to go with it. This is in addition to anywhere from 50' to 90' of snow on the ground [Washington State]. = IMHO, *nothing* will kill off a hive as quickly as that combination. As = nearly as I can recall, KY winters on average may get down to the mid teens a time or two, with perhaps a few inches of snow on the ground? With those kind of conditions your bees should be able to make it through the winter with flying colors and, more importantly, they will need to be able to make cleansing flights whenever the weather moderates enough for them to do so. Like I said earlier, we don't get the killing winters every year but it seems that when I *don't* move them in is when it hits the worst. Likewise, when I do go to the trouble, and it is a hassle - even only with a few hives to move in and out again - that always seems to be the mild winter. After all this babbling my recommendation would be to check the sci.bee.etc. archives on wintering and leave your hives outside, assuming that you leave them adequate stores and make some kind of precautions to protect them from the prevailing winds. If at all possible, talk to as many *local* beekeepers as you can and quiz them on how they get their hives though the winter. Finally in a pro-shacking statement from "Earmails" in Canada: There isn't really any need for it from the bees point of view. But it is convenient for the beekeeper for a number of reasons. = We move the hives into the beehouse (more or less just a shed) for the = winter and come spring move the hives to outside locations. The beehouse for us = just means that the hive bodies are out of the weather, under cover, = there is electricity in the shed, and also we are now putting the hives = on boxes where we can have a lightbulb burning underneath which helps some in = keeping them through the winter (we have a big moisture problem due to = the weather's fluctuations). A beehouse helps the beekeeper, not = necessarily the bees. . . . Not that he can do much if they are in trouble, he wouldn't be = able to open them up and correct a problem at that time. But he's = thankful the hives are in the beehouse, it's not a fancy one, just some = shed he calls "the beehouse". So he steps up and stands behind the hives = (we went into last winter with four hives), puts on the electric light (beats holding a flashlight with your = teeth), knocks a bit on the hives and judges by the quick uproar - yep, = still ok, still kicking, seem fine, or even uuh ohh what's going on now. Then he lifts the lids and checks on the glasses with syrup, gives = another if one is empty, turns the lids around if there was condensation = underneath, and if all seems well, turns off the light and treks back to the house back through the deep winter. It certainly makes the beehouse = seem like an oasis of peace when just a few feet the snow is deep, still = falling, wind blows, it's dark and gruelling, but he knows that shed he = so fanciful calls a beehouse gives off just that extra iddy bit of = protection that might make the difference in his bees survival for = another looong winter. It's much hard work moving the bees back to the beehouse for the winter, = and I dread doing that work shortly. But I assure everyone, it's worth = every bit of the work come winter. Just to know that with that they = might have a better chance of survival. We come back to the question, and what do I plan to do . . .=20 Kentucky has winter, albeit . . . mild, it's winter, and it has months = of 15-20 degree weather. Still most of the problems in doing this, if = I'm diligent about feeding an overactive hive, seem few and the = opportunities of having a strong brood, perhaps stronger brood give me = enough confidence into trying this. As I look at objectives for my = growing little apiary, trying to raise strong colonies is at least my = short-term goal. I may not do it when I have 80-100 hives - but while = I'm in the single digits, it can't be too much of a strain. As far as them eating up too much food supplies from this - Animals, = including bees, eat in the winter for existence and for warmth - I don't = see how keeping the hives warmer would deplete food stores. "Cleansing = flights" is a very good point, however I feel that given the large = outdoor openings in this building (it is after all a shack) cleansing = flights shouldn't be a problem. I also checked with a very respected beekeeper in my area, about 40 = years my senior, he also plans to shack his hives this winter for the = first time. One Saturday's work. Again, Thanks so much for your comments, and = advice. Wish me luck, I'll let you know - come spring. John Leslie Francis Program Director, WEKU "Great Music and NPR News" E-mail: dmrfranc@acs.eku.edu/www.weku.org* Phone: 606.622.1657 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:12:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Shack'n up . . . Recap In-Reply-To: <199909011149.HAA04129@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We come back to the question, and what do I plan to do . . . > As far as them eating up too much food supplies from this - Animals, = > including bees, eat in the winter for existence and for warmth - I don't = > see how keeping the hives warmer would deplete food stores. Bees are more efficient at wintering if they stay clustered most of the time. Bees that are too warm get too active and wear themselves out, plus eat all the food and starve. There is a happy medium somewhere in the middle between huddling miserably together all the time and running around all winter. Periodic warming to allow for a little movement is good if the temperatures go much below ideal for long times (we get to minus forty for a week or more at a time), but the ideal that is sought in *indoor* wintering as practiced in large wintering buildings is a constant temperature somewhere around 30 to 40 degreees F, as I recall. I really hope you have mined the BEE-L logs on this topic, because it has been covered EXHAUSTIVELY, and it makes no sense to reinvent the wheel. > "Cleansing = > flights" is a very good point, however I feel that given the large = > outdoor openings in this building (it is after all a shack) cleansing = > flights shouldn't be a problem. You could lose them all if they are unable to easily find their way in and out. Most indoor wintering is done in sheds that are *entirely* dark. Even a crack of light can cause bees to crawl to it and be lost. Alternatives are either sheds that are wide open on the south side, or else completely dark sheds with the hives crowded to one (or more) wall -- preferably south -- which has a flight tunnel through it connecting with each hive entrance. > I also checked with a very respected beekeeper in my area, about 40 = > years my senior, he also plans to shack his hives this winter for the = > first time. Then he is a rank beginner at this too. allen --- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of BEE-L discussions BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:51:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: Shack'n up . . . Recap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I don't > > see how keeping the hives warmer would deplete food stores. Conventional wisdom here (Norway) where it can, but seldom does, go down to 40 below (celsius)is as follows: 1. Over wintering indoors generally is more work than the benefits if any it results in. 2. Temperature as such does not appear to be the factor that determines rapid usage of winter food stocks - but temperature swings above and below zero do cause increased usage. As does physical disturbance. 3. As we use netting floors we can shut the hive entrance to prevent bees coming out to into the shed or whatever. Natural lighting is no different indoors to outdoors. 4. Indoor over wintering avoids wind cooling and can be particularly useful for small colonies such as nuclei. 5. The hives should be moved back outdoors before there is a risk of cleansing flights beginning. 6. The ideal is a draught free, unheated, unlighted, preferably unused (for other purposes) outhouse. I have over wintered nuclei several times indoors with 100% success, but would not consider indoors for full size colonies unless I really had a severe wind problem. Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7004 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 07:41:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Emergency Queen Cells and Ageing Grubs In-Reply-To: <199909010303.XAA26613@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The amount of royal jelly > that is placed into the cell before it is capped may be a very good > indicator of how good a queen that hatched. > > Queen cells that were produced for swarming or supercedure had so much > royal jelly in them that after the queen emerged, a good deal of dry > residue was still in the bottom of the cell. Cells from emergency queens > often have all of the jelly consumed by the larvae. Virtually all grafted queens are raised in a queenless condition in response to queenlessness, and must thus be considered, IMO, emergency queens. There are several factors besides the mode, whether swarm, supercedure, or emergency, which determine the amount and quality of feed given to a queen larva. One is the general environment at the time; in poor weather or out of season, bees do not feed larvae as well as when there is an abundance of nectar and pollen. (Nonetheless, heavy flow conditions are not good for getting good queens either). Another important factor is the number of young, healthy bees that are available to feed the queen larvae. Most swarming takes place under ideal conditions for raising young bees, thus the cells raised have a good reputation, except for the genetics question. Supercedure can take place under a variety of conditions, and I should think that the amount of food given the cells would be dependant on the same factors as in raising queens. The fact that supercedure often takes place under conditions of reduced queen performance, when the amount of open brood is being reduced may tend to increase the likelihood of adequate food being provided, as does the (typically) small number of supercedure cells made. The amount of food in queen cells initiated as a result of human intervention is always a concern. I have seen commercial queen cells which we purchased, arrive without an excess of royal jelly apparent. As mentioned here before many times, this is easy to see in a JZBZ cell up. I have also seen this flaw on occasion in cells we have raised ourselves; this is a major fault that is easily observed. Cells without an apparent surplus after pupation should really be discarded, but I wonder how often they are. The problem is that the person who raised the cells wants to believe that, by some stroke of luck, *exactly* the correct amount was fed, thus the cell has no surplus -- and not the obvious truth: that the queen could have consumed more and is hungry. I have wondered what the consequence of underfeeding at the very *end* of the larval stage is. I have wondered whether it simply results in a newly hatched queen which is fully grown and developed, but which has an empty stomach and which falls over a few moments after hatching unless fed immediately, or an underdeveloped, undersized queen. I have definitely seen the former -- and also the latter, but I do not know the cause(s). > I wonder if this could put the issue of queen quality in a different light. > The emergency queens have run out of food in the capped cell. The other > queens had all they needed, and then some. I believe this is a factor. I think emergency cells have a bad reputation in some quarters for a number of reasons. * One is that some bees do not raise emergency cells well. We see this when we select hives for cell building for grafted queens. Not all hives will build queen cells promptly and in numbers. * Another is that bad timing can be a problem, or that poor colonies are selected for emergency cell rearing. As a result, the cells are poorly fed. This does not happen with swarm cells, almost by definition. Supercedure cells can cover quite a gamut. I've seen some pretty pathetic ones. > Could this be a result of the > bees having a longer period to fill the cell before capping? Could a few > hours time give the bees enough time to add enough jelly to end up with a > good queen? If so the difference between a workable emergency queen and a > poor one could be the result of small differences in the way the bees have > fed the larvae. I don't think so. As I said before, all the commercial queens you buy are emergency queens, and they seem to be well fed, if the queen supplier is scrupulous. Only if an older larva is selected by the bees -- or the person grafting -- does this become a question. Apparently this does happen in some situations, definitely if no other choice is available, and also possibly with some types of bees or environment. Older larvae are already well on their way to becoming workers, and do not make good queens no matter how much they are fed. > I also wonder if bees tend to chose brood of full sisters for the new > queen? AFAIK, the research to prove this theory is pretty questionable at the moment (see the logs). As with many bee phenomena, the original research may have been accurate, but replication has been a problem -- I believe. People try to generalise behaviours over vast and varied bee populations in widely differernt locales, and what may be observed in one place with one population, may not be observed elsewhere. Apparently this is not a universal phenomenon. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:02:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Shack'n up . . . Recap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthony N Morgan wrote: > 5. The hives should be moved back outdoors before there is a risk of > cleansing flights beginning. > 6. The ideal is a draught free, unheated, unlighted, preferably unused > (for other purposes) outhouse. Some time ago there were some good articles on bee houses built in Canada for overwintering. What struck me is they were well insulated to keep the cold in as well as keep it out. They wanted to maintain a constant temperature so the bees would not break cluster which is what Anthony also described as concerns. Here in Maine, bees overwinter outside just fine. Bill Truesdell BAth, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:06:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: I love those Archives, Centripetal Force MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I bought a Cowan extracting line this year and have had some trouble with the DC drive. Phone calls so far have not solved my problem and I decided to redesign the drive. It's been over 30 years since I sat in my first year engineering class and learned the forces associated with revolving objects, and I could not remember: does centipetal force vary with the diameter -- or the *square* of the diameter??? Well, I remembered we had talked about this and to check the BEE-L logs. Lo! and behold! I found this: >>>Centrifugal force for an extractor can be calculated with the formula f=mv²/r where f = force in newtons, m=mass in kgs, v=velocity in metres/second, and r= radius in metres. In practice an extractor with a diameter of 1.2 metres (from frame centre to frame centre) at 150rpm will develop 14.8 times the force of gravity and this works for semi radial extractors (one speed only). If these are full depths, there will be around 12.3 Gs on the bottom bars and 17.3 Gs on the top bars. The difference in centrifugal force between top and bottom bars is greater in smaller extractors. The following implications are also important:: 2X RPM and force goes up 4X. 3X RPM and force goes up 9X. I.e. RPM has an exponential effect on force. 2X diamter and force goes up 2X. 3X diameter and force goes up 3X. I.e. Increases in Diameter have a linear effect on force. It's important to get the RPM right! <<< What a fantastic resource this is. And thanks to Peter Bray who originally posted this info. And I also read this: >>>FWIW, we run our Kelleys up to 200 to 240 RPM maximum speed depending on the amount of comb breakage we are experiencing. This in turn depends on the thickness of the honey. The reel diameter is 56 inches in diameter, so a formula to determine a good trial speed for another diameter would be: S = 220 X 56 / D Where S is the speed in RPM and D is the diameter of your extractor reel (not tank) in inches.<<< I can thank myself for that one. How easily we forget what we know! allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:34:12 -0400 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: Emergency Queen Cells and Ageing Grubs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > One is the general environment at the time; in poor weather or out of season, bees do not feed larvae as well as when there is an abundance of nectar and pollen. (Nonetheless, heavy flow conditions are not good for getting good queens either). Hi Allen, I'm not sure I understand the last sentence in your paragraph. Why is a heavy flow not good? Thanks Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:42:27 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: I love those Archives, Centripetal Force MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick wrote: > >>>Centrifugal force for an extractor can be calculated with the formula > f=mv²/r where f = force in newtons, m=mass in kgs, v=velocity in > metres/second, and r= radius in metres. > 2X RPM and force goes up 4X. > 3X RPM and force goes up 9X. > I.e. RPM has an exponential effect on force. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Good post Allen! But please use the correct mathematical terminology: RPM does NOT have an exponential effect on force -- the force varies with the SQUARE of the speed ie RPM as in the formula you quote above. Exponential implies that the "magical" number "e" = 2.71828.... appears in the formula raised to a power that is dependant upon the RPM: if this were so the force would increase with RPM much more dramatically than indicated above! > What a fantastic resource this is. Absolutely! But what a shame we can't remove some of the dumb posts we sent in ignorance or in haste: they all are there for future searchers to find and shake their heads over! Cheers Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7004 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:53:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: EARMAILS Subject: Re: Shack'n up . . . Recap In-Reply-To: <199909011321.JAA07320@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>6. The ideal is a draught free, unheated, unlighted, preferably unused (for other purposes) outhouse. That's more or less what we have, a partial open shed, nothing fancy, nothing heated, just a building with a roof on top, some sidewalls that are closed in and some that are still open. The bees could leave anytime if they so decide. We consider ourselves not real beginners anymore but are now in the years of trying different things. It is time to find out what might work better for our area and what would be useless to continue as done before. Even though last year we had an almost 100% success rate of overwintering we don't expect this to happen that easy again. My husband is attempting to find ways to improve his overwintering technics. We will move them into the beehouse for another winter, will place them on the boxes where we could plug in a lightbulb if the temperature plungs too deep. We may not have to feed them as much as last year since it seems that on the whole their storage situation this year so far is much better as compared to last year around this time where they had practically no stores due to a no good summer. I have been listening to the comments made on the overwintering topic, and I don't have of course the many years of beekeeping behind me that some of you do. We have had however lost hives over past winters and since we are only a small apiary, it is devastating to loose hives. We have tried hard to decide why loss occurred and then we tried measures to prevend such loss again. Maybe we make ourselves too much work with moving them to the beehouse for the winter but we haven't really come across anything better yet to help those bees survive. I mentioned to my husband what had been discussed on this topic recently. He then said amongst other things, if the bees don't have the added advantage of that touch of warmth that the light bulb provided and the added insulation around the hives, they would just huddle up (cluster) and they would not move to the left or right or even up top to get at the food. They starve to death and they also freeze to death. This wasn't just a problem with us, we were told that this was kinda common in Terrace too, and the recommendation to wrap up the hives the way he does it now came from there to him. Don't know where he got the extra box with the light bulb idea though. One other difference I noticed from comments and pictures on some web sites. Maybe I understand this wrong. For us a normal hive is the bottom (brood with a bit of storage) box with 10 frames, then the 2nd (storage with a bit of brood) box with 10 frames. Then during the summer usually a 3rd box (storage) is added on to the top. Now to us a strong hive is one that extends itself completely and then some more over those 3 boxes = 1 hive. (A 4th box will seldom be filled or even drawn out during the summers.) I seem to understand from some comments however, that people call a strong hive when they are only in the bottom box over most of the 10 frames and also cover about 4 or 6 frames of the second box. Doesn't make sense to us and I wonder if I misunderstood. A hive with that few only is a hive we call a smaller one and that might be about the size of hive we come out of a winter with. A hive that covers only one box and approx. another half box may be too small to survive our winters, so my husband told me this evening. On another subject, but certainly related to the topic of bees. Comments were made to go search the extensive archives on any topic imaginable. Maybe I'm too new at these email lists but I feel I'm getting a bit overwhelmed when I have to go search some archives. Frankly I don't really have the time for that until maybe winter, and to me it has been extremely helpful when people respond with their experiences to questions. Still we could go later on to search some archives but for right now, when someone needs an answer now on whatever, personally I like seeing the different responses from different people when someone wants to know something. Maybe that isn't too professional and maybe it's reinventing the wheel but .. since I'm just a small time beekeeper I beg to differ a bit. Maybe I'm on the wrong kind of list? I believe that this list is for professional beekeepers (with lots of hives) and also for small hometype beekeepers (with a few hives)? I miss the personal stuff a bit that for example tells why a person is a beekeeper and why in their area he or she does whatever he or she feels is right to do. I don't know how to explain that better. Scientific lectures are ok but small talk type of discussions are also needed, I believe. Anyway. Three of my hives were moved back to the beehouse during the last three days, and hopefully tomorrow will see the move of the fourth and last one. Then I evaluate the situation and during the next few weeks make changes, adjustments, and get them ready a bit more. Mr. Junior Black Bear has been coming by regularly these last few days too but so far we caught his advances in time and so far all he got was a sniff of some honey but no taste of it yet (husband keeps promising Junior Bear a taste of something else if he doesn't stay away). The hives will be much more safer in their winter location too in case of grizzlies or black bears who will pass through the area again during the fall.They like to investigate, those beasties. Maybe I also should mention this too: To us it is not yet a priority to get honey out of the bees, first we want to learn ways to keep them - keep through winters, through summers. So far this year it seems that we could take some honey away for us but we might just do some reshuffling of the honey frames instead to ensure that each of the four hives has enough honey winter storage, and that way we might not need to feed much syrup this year. Ma. / Nass Valley - British Columbia CANADA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:30:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: eparker Organization: Serenity Gardens Subject: Split Time? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I'm going to split a couple hives tomorrow. I will introduce a caged = queen and move the splits about a mile up the road. My question is, = should I do this in the afternoon when bees are in the field or in the = evening when most of the bees are in the hive? I think I read to do it = in the evening, but now I can't find where I read it. Thanks for any help. Ed Parker Serenity Gardens ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:19:41 +0100 Reply-To: alan.riach@which.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Emergency Queens and Ageing Grubs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting reference of Allens to the work of Winston & Punnet (91% of queen cells were from eggs) 9% must therefore have been from grubs and a "grub" queen would therefore have been first to hatch. The general rule in an emergency is "1st. queen out wins" since they very quickly set about the "unemerged" - this is not necessarily the case in general queen breeding but usually is in a true emergency. Another thing which I've noticed about emergency queens - they often seem quite small when they emerge but seem to fill out proportionately more than say supercedure queens over the next few months. Alan Riach - Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:57:32 +0100 Reply-To: alan.riach@which.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Extractors and Centripetal Forces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And I note the word "centripetal" from Allen's article, which brought back the words of my old Engineering prof of 30 yrs ago "the acceleration is towards the centre gentlemen, centre seeking or centripetal". However in extraction, viscosity is also important, especially with honeys such as Heather which are thixotropic - you can put heather frames through an extractor and get out nothing but if you uncap them and leave them face down over a tray for 2 weeks a considerable amount of honey "falls" out.There is an experiment running at Glasgow University which was started by Lord Kelvin about 140 years ago involving a lump of tar on an inclined plane- it's still on the move. Now the research which elucidates the connection between centripetal force,viscosity,wax surface friction and time - there leads the way to the unifying theory of extraction. Alan Riach - Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:00:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: Extractors and Centripetal Forces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alan Riach wrote: > >.........you can put heather > frames through an extractor and get out nothing..... You can also, by using a high honey room temperature and making sure the frames are also up to temperature, uncap the combs and agitate the honey - set the extractor on full throttle and get it all out with no problems. Thereby avoiding the messy, time consuming pressing process, saving the bees the hard work of building new comb and raising your yearly honey yield. The frames may be accelerating towards the centre but the honey being unconstrained and now of much lower viscosity travels outwards and is collected! cheers Tony ----------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7004 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:53:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vanessa de Behr Subject: a good hive size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > For us a normal hive is the bottom >(brood with a bit of storage) box with 10 frames, then the 2nd (storage >with a bit of brood) box with 10 frames. Then (...) a >3rd box (storage) is added on to the top. > people call a strong >hive when they are only in the bottom box over most of the 10 frames and >also cover about 4 or 6 frames of the second box. Let's follow the fashion and speak mathematics! I suppose an disagreement on the size of the unit should be considered before discussing about "normality". In Belgium, we meet mainly WBC type hives, and also Dadant type. A Dadant "body" box (brood and a bit of storage) has 12 frames about 27x40 cm (1 x 1.3 ft), the super having a different size, 12 frames 13x40 cm (0.5 x 1.3 ft). A WBC box (either body or super) has 10 to 12 frames slightly smallers than a Dadant super box. Thus the box unit size may change from simple to more than double... and may be the source of confusion. To me, a healthy Dadant hive spend winter with a full body box and is topped in summer with one or two supers if the flow is exceptionnal. My opinion of a healthy hive is close to Ma. / Nass valley one, only if we speak in WBC box units. But 6 frames Dadant body box hives, and WBC one box (12 frames) hives also survive our mild winters, where a woodpecker was the greatest cause of rampage I ever met. Vanessa de Behr sunday beekeeper from Belgium one Dadant hive, and one just dead due to moth, so surely not as good at beekeeping as in mathematics! (and only learning the painful way...) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:49:42 -0700 Reply-To: r@jobhaus.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert MacKimmie Subject: Insurance rate hike on American Beekeeping Federation Coverage - Group Response Needed !!!?!!?!?!?! Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach_patches v148.2) Several of us received notice yesterday that the policy covering those in the American Beekeeping Federation has been purchased by someone else -- and suprise, suprise, the choices have been "simplified" and the annual fee is now MUCH higher. Are many on this list using the ABF affiliation for their liability insurance source and can we get together in having a group response that doesn't simply shell out the 50-100% increase in annual fees? Open discussion is great or I can collect and summarize if people only want to write to me in private. I am a small sideliner and don't purchase the product liability coverage. I mostly need liability coverage to protect in case of sting litagation. Thanks all, Robert MacKimmie, San Francisco robert@citybees.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:49:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Shack'n up . . . Recap In-Reply-To: <199909021109.HAA06078@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We have had however lost hives over past winters and since we are > only a small apiary, it is devastating to loose hives. You will always lose some hives over winter in northern Canada unless you are very lucky. About 10% loss is the lowest that one can expect, averaged over years. 20% is more realistic. > He then said amongst other things, if the bees don't have the added > advantage of that touch of warmth that the light bulb provided and the > added insulation around the hives, they would just huddle up (cluster) and > they would not move to the left or right or even up top to get at the food. > They starve to death and they also freeze to death. Szabo's work shows graphically that healthy bees move to new stores even in very cold weather. The major problems in this regard ocur when brood rearing starts and the ability to move is limited or when the feed is granulated hard. FWIW, bees that are less than healthy tend to have problems that are often blamed on the cold. Supplementary heat to assist the bees can be a benefit if used *carefully* and in moderation when the temperatures are very cold, but can be deadly if used in weather around and above freezing. You *really* should do some research. > For us a normal hive is the bottom > (brood with a bit of storage) box with 10 frames, then the 2nd (storage > with a bit of brood) box with 10 frames. > Then during the summer usually a 3rd box (storage) is added on to the top. To us that is a weak hive. Normally our honey producing hives consist of *a minimum* of 5 supers in early July, and the bees should fill them all completely. > I seem to understand from some comments however, that people call a strong > hive when they are only in the bottom box over most of the 10 frames and > also cover about 4 or 6 frames of the second box. Hive strength is judged by time of year and the purpose for which it is intended. A strong hive for spring pollination work will not compare well to a strong hive for summer honey production. > A hive that covers only one box and approx. another half box > may be too small to survive our winters, so my husband told me this evening. You might find it worthwhile to read the logs about this. The number of bees is less of a factor than the number of well fed young bees. The former is much easier to see and assess. Larger hives may consume more stores and be overly active. Much depends on the strain of bee as to determining what is a satisfactory cluster for winter. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both from one page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:49:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L is not sci.agriculture.beekeeping In-Reply-To: <199909021109.HAA06078@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Comments > were made to go search the extensive archives on any topic imaginable. > Maybe I'm too new at these email lists but I feel I'm getting a bit > overwhelmed when I have to go search some archives. Well, that's the price you pay for belonging to a big high volume, quality-controlled list and wishing to learn from it. You do have to do your homework. Every gathering of people, other than a mob (and maybe even a mob), has its rules of order and procedure. When up to 1,000 people from all over the world are all in an active meeting that has been in session for over 10 years, why do so many newcomers expect to rush in, run up to the podium, grab the mic and ask or talk about whatever is on their mind without finding out what is happening, and what has been happening? Quite a number of people misunderstand what BEE-L is and what its mission is. They assume it is there to meet their personal need to chat and talk on -- often without listening or thinking, or without bringing in anything new. BEE-L actually exists to maintain high quality discussion and to concurrently build a knowledge base that is of useable size and quality. The real time answer-back aspect is important, but must be secondary to the prime objectives. The majority of subscribers never post, but read what is posted and they are the real audience here. To them silence is a good thing and a huge volume of chatter is a nuisance. They must be respected and protected from those who wish simply to chat. BEE-L does not wish to become like CB radio for beekeepers where quality and content is driven by those whose time is worth least and the standard of debate is determined by the lowest common denominator. There are other bee lists and a large group on USENET where there are no constraints and people can and do post any old thing they like. If you go there, you'll see that they do. If you can stand it, you'll have found a home. If you can't, then maybe you get my point. *All* input on this list is very much appreciated and carefully considered, however, it is not reasonable to expect 800 list members to wade through tons of personal exchanges and pointless repetition because one or two people are unwilling to do a little work or are bored or lonesome and want to chat. For whatever reasons, it seems some people have plenty of time to write long and uninformed questions and expect others to take the time to explain things at their level, while, at the same instant, they claim not to have the time to do a simple search. Thus, the answers they get are often of similar quality from people who are similarly uninformed and feel that a guess is good enough. Guesses, unless based on actual experience or study, are not good enough for this list. If you do not like sci.agriculture.beekeeping, then being disciplined and doing your homework is the price you pay for participating in a list of BEE-L's quality. A number of people are working in the background to keep the quality up. This list is not run without some appreciable personal cost to a number of selfless and nameless people who ask for no credit. Participating in BEE-L is not a right, it is a privilege -- one that is freely given. No one is forced to post to BEE-L. BEE-L is a privately owned list which is open to anyone. Those who choose to subscribe must understand that their writing must meet certain standards of interest, content and format or be rejected, often without comment. Those who subscribe depend on the moderators to screen out self-serving junk and they do. I also expect that the standard will be raised as time passes and now that alternate discussion areas are available. > Maybe I'm on the wrong kind of list? ...I miss the personal stuff a bit that for > example tells why a person is a beekeeper and why in their area he or she > does whatever he or she feels is right to do. Beats me. I previously recommended sci.agriculture.beekeeping to you, and to me sci.agriculture.beekeeping appears to already be exactly what you seem to be wanting BEE-L to become. Have you been to sci.agriculture.beekeeping ? 'Feelings' are big there. I also know that -- in addition to this list -- you are also on another list that appears to be exactly the type of list you seem to want, so I don't quite understand what you are expecting. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:41:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John and Angie Partin Subject: Re: Split Time? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I do splits, I will set up the split configuration(2-4 frames of brood per box) and stack the entire hive (all splits taken from parent hive) back together the day before I move them. This allows the nurse bees to balance out over the brood. Putting the frames of brood in the same place in each box will help ( i.e. the middle three frames of each box). The next day at daylight, before the bees are flying, I set the splits down individually on pallets or bottom boards and move them at least 3 miles away so the field force won't go back to the original hive. Using queen cells, I like to wait a day or so before introducing them to the hive so they will realize they are queenless. I believe it will probably be the same for live queens. I don't know it will matter what time of day you introduce the queens. Maybe others with more experience with live queens will be more help with that question. ----- Original Message ----- From: eparker To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:30 PM Subject: Split Time? > Hello all, > I'm going to split a couple hives tomorrow. I will introduce a caged = > queen and move the splits about a mile up the road. My question is, = > should I do this in the afternoon when bees are in the field or in the = > evening when most of the bees are in the hive? I think I read to do it = > in the evening, but now I can't find where I read it. > Thanks for any help. > Ed Parker > Serenity Gardens > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:31:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Warren Otto Subject: what's this bee? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About 2/3 the size of your 'normal' honey bee. More black and white as opposed to black and yellow. Have seen them on my garden sunflowers, beside my honey bees and bumble bees, just loaded with pollen. I am located at 50 degrees N latitude in Manitoba, Canada. Thanx Warren Otto ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:26:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BRIAN HENSEL Subject: DRONES STUCK IN COMB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HELLO all Bee-L Friends: I have been in the process of pulling off all my honey supers, and inspecting all my hives and getting them ready for fall feeding and medications, and I noticed a very peculiar event that has occurred in two of my hives. When checking the brood area, everything looks great except there are a number of drones stuck half way out when emerging from their cells. Some of the drones are alive and others are dead. The bee's have started to remove some of them that have died, and you can see where the bee's have cut into the wax cells in an effort to try and free the drones. These drones are in worker cells, and the cappings protrude outward above the comb surface. This has occurred in my best productive hive and one other hive, and I was wondering if this is a sign of a problem. I have never seen this before, and I cannot find any information in any of my books, or any searches. I would appreciate any information anyone has, or any ideas as to what is going on. Thank You Very Much!! Brian Hensel Ukiah, Ca. USA bjhensel@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Received a flyer from Mann Lake today called "Technical Update." A 22" X 17", single fold, four color with some very LARGE copy basically selling the new CheckMite+++ISI pest control strip. On the front page, there is a heading that reads, "CheckMite+++ISI Shows 30% Higher Efficacy Than Apistan!" It goes on to say; "A controlled efficacy study was conducted in Clear Lake, South Dakota to evaluate the efficacy of four different products for control of Varroa jacobsoni in honeybee colonies. The products tested include Fluvalinate strips, Permethrin strips, Coumaphos strips and Formic acid gel packs for 30 days. (Treatment period was 30 days - recommended treatment is 45 days.) "+ICI-Treating varroa mites with Fluvalinate strips showed actual varroa population increase of 64%. "+ICI-Treating with Permethrin strips showed a 67% varroa mite reduction. "+ICI-Treating with Coumaphos strips showed a 92% varroa mite reduction. "+ICI-Treating with Formic Acid Gel packs showed a 26% varroa mite reduction." Now if Andy were still with us, he would have a field day with this flyer knowing how much he loved to counter the hype! Doesn't this send up a red flag to others when we are given a study to show "proof" of a products outstanding performance and the study admits that the "other" (Fluvalinate) products weren't used according to the manufacturer's guidelines of a minimum of 45 days? The other factor that isn't mentioned is if the Clear Lake area is already known to have varroa that are resistant to fluvalinate for what ever reason. Perhaps a study done in my area where mites are not resistant to fluvalinate would yield a different result. I'm amazed at the lengths Mann Lake will apparently go to sell this stuff. I'm glad there is now an option for beekeepers to use when it comes to mite treatment but to make a big deal about "Win a free trip! Purchase 5 or more 100 packs of CheckMite+++ISI strips and your name is automatically entered in the drawing" and quoting the kind of information they are, leaves this beekeeper thinking I'd just as soon use other methods to treat for varroa than to jump on the CheckMite+++ISI wagon. -Barry (views expressed are my own, opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk.) -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:36:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: I love those Archives, Centripetal Force In-Reply-To: <199909021104.HAA05997@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > >>>Centrifugal force for an extractor can be calculated with the formula > > f=mv²/r where f = force in newtons, m=mass in kgs, v=velocity in > > metres/second, and r= radius in metres. > > > 2X RPM and force goes up 4X. > > 3X RPM and force goes up 9X. > > I.e. RPM has an exponential effect on force. > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > Good post Allen! But please use the correct mathematical terminology: > RPM does NOT have an exponential effect on force -- the force varies > with the SQUARE of the speed ie RPM as in the formula you quote above. > Exponential implies that the "magical" number "e" = 2.71828.... appears > in the formula raised to a power that is dependant upon the RPM: if this > were so the force would increase with RPM much more dramatically than > indicated above! You are right of course, but the above quote is from Peter Bray, not me. That is not to say that I did not make an error in the portion following. The second quote was from a previous post by me and the error was kindly picked up by another ham radio/engineering type, Wade Troyer who wrote me: >>>>Interesting analysis for the extractor force, diameter, speed relationship. Are you certain the proper end relationship is S = 220 x 56 / D ?? Could it actually be S = 220 x ( 56 / D )^.5 ?? This is assuming that force is to be kept constant and that mass remains constant. I used the relationship F = m x V^2 / r and substituted V = pi x D x S to convert velocity into speed in RPM's and r = D / 2 to convert radius into diameter. Next I set D1 x S1^2 = D x S^2 where S = New Speed, D1 = 56, S1 = 220, D = New Diameter Solving for S gives S = 220 x ( 56 / D )^.5 <<<< He is correct of course, and I implied his result in my original post, but somehow did not get it right in my formula. I am indebted to you both for pointing out the oversights and I hope we have it correct now. > > What a fantastic resource this is. > Absolutely! But what a shame we can't remove some of the dumb posts we > sent in ignorance or in haste: they all are there for future searchers > to find and shake their heads over! That's the truth, and some of mine are kinda dumb. I only hope anyone reading has the sense to read all the way through a thread or a search result to get to the correct conclusion. Actually, the logs could conceivably be edited and we have discussed this. However it is a huge job, and also we are not sure any one of us is wise enough to decide what will go and what will stay. Real time oderation is accomplished by a panel of moderators who work independantly. Approval by any one of them gets any post accepted. Ie. if any *one* of the four votes for a post, it goes through to BEE-L. Editing that way would be cumbersome, if not imposssible. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:19:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Absconding Bees Hello John I can appreciate your frustration and puzzlement.The Lady from Bc talks about inspecting. This procedure is of importance nowadays to verify the condition of the colony in spite of the reluctance because of previous advise. It puzzles me as to how can "experienced" beekeepers tell how many Varroa or tracheal mites are present in a colony. However one can tell by the sound bees make if something is amiss or not.And THAT can change by the hour.And I have certainy no Quarrel whith beekeepers which can tell the specifics of the sound.I am not that far an expert. One hears a lot about the mites this and that, but How do you really know whether or not the mites ARE the cause ??? Let me give you another one of those multiple anecdotes, what happend to me. Three attempts of my neighbor and I to HAVE bees failed due to Absconding. Why ? Not the slightest notion at the time. Managing bees and Having bees are two very different aspects. Since we are in the 90 ties and not any more in the 70 ties or 80 ties beekeeping became a function of management rather than Having. And to us novices , looking into the guts of the hive is important as the lady said. My first colony on my own in 1997 which survived the winter had a massive drone population. Suddenly those drones died by the thousands. At the same time it stank around the hive and I figured the rotting drones were the cause.Then , suddenly after the drone demise, Varroas appeared on the landing board by the hundreds. There were alive and / or dead . I have no idea whether the bees carried them out or they walked by themselves. The number of bees reduced drastically ( I did not inspect within !!!!!!)by evidence of exiting bees and returners. Our State inspector came by and analised the cause as American Foul Brood. That was an extreemly useful lesson and you can detect AFB at an early state by inspecting periodically before this peculiar odor is noticable. Meantime I found the culprits of source in the neighborhood.When your bees abscond , they carry the spores with them and infest other colonies. Another observation : I only found ONCE a Varroa dead on a dead drone,in spite of my patient observation faculties, but varroas in drone cells . Foot note : From the advise by the inspector I was able to save the two colonies I had and their offspring is somehow still around in minute genetic leftovers. To sum up: Beware of quicky judgements , inspect , learn to indentify and treat . Best wishes Catfish ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:28:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: HONEY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cindy, Bees have been over wintering successfully on honey for millions of years before sugar was ever put in a bag. If you live in the frozen north where bees cannot fly for six months of the year there may be an advantage in having a winter diet with less solid matter but in less hostile climates it will make no difference. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:54:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad In-Reply-To: <199909021909.PAA20046@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:54 PM 9/2/99 -0500, Barry Birkey wrote: >Received a flyer from Mann Lake today called "Technical Update." A 22" X >17", single fold, four color with some very LARGE copy basically selling the >new CheckMite+++ISI pest control strip. >"+ICI-Treating varroa mites with Fluvalinate strips showed actual varroa >population increase of 64%. > >"+ICI-Treating with Permethrin strips showed a 67% varroa mite reduction. > >"+ICI-Treating with Coumaphos strips showed a 92% varroa mite reduction. > >"+ICI-Treating with Formic Acid Gel packs showed a 26% varroa mite reduction." > It seems to me that if several different approved, proven, and available treatments are out there, the best approach would be to develop a rotation scheme similar to those available for treating worms (fly larvae) in horses. By alternating between 2 or more treatments, resistance development would be greatly delayed, since the pests would need to develop resistance to both forms of treatment at once. Otherwise, those mites (and their descendents) that survive one type of treatment would likely be wiped out by the second type. Mike Churchill | "The nice thing about standards is mike.churchill@montesano.com | that there are so many to choose from" http://www.netmechanic.com - Power Tools for Your Web Site Link and HTML testing, Server Reliability Testing, Image Size Reduction ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:59:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry's comments are seconded here. It is not nearly as benign as Apistan, but the kind of stuff which, if found in Honey, will hurt the industry faster and more permanantly than Alar did Apples. Especially since it is in the class of pesticides which most, including the reasonable ones, environmental groups strongly oppose and want to outlaw completely. The EPA is definitely not happy with it. I know, with all the hype, many beekeepers will want to shift to it since it is being touted as another magic bullet. How long have Bayer strips-they are same as Checkmite?- been used in Europe? Is there any kind of data out there as to solubility in honey and wax? What kind of problem are we really facing, not today, but in the next five years? The staffs of the Food Police groups could have a field day with Checkmite. Bill T ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:11:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad In-Reply-To: <199909021907.PAA20034@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Received a flyer from Mann Lake today called "Technical Update." A 22" X > 17", single fold, four color with some very LARGE copy basically selling the > new CheckMite+++ISI pest control strip... Their web site for the product is http://www.mannlakeltd.com/cuma.html I mention this because people were talking about red dots on bees and there is a good picture of varroa on a bee at this site. The hive beetle picture is a bit lacking though. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:19:35 -0600 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Forced feral bee absconding? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Someone called me last week to come out and remove a feral beehive from the storage bin of his camper. When I arrived we found VERY few bees - and larvae was squirming out of their cells, falling to the floor of the storage compartment (alive). The few remaining bees looked like freshly emerged nurse bees and plenty of brood remaining. Fresh eggs were all turning shades of gray and drying up. A few wax worms were working their way through one of the combs. It looked as if 100% of the bees absconded in the last day or two - leaving plenty of honey behind (not robbed as there were no torn cells). The homeowner said he had backed his diesel truck up to the camper a couple days before. He left the engine running and returned to notice all kinds of bees flying 20-30 minutes later. It looks as though the exhaust flooded the hive since the tailpipe was probably a foot away from the bee entrance. Was it the exhaust or wax moths or ?? which drove ALL the bees away? If exhaust works, perhaps this would be a good method to force bees out of hard-to-reach cavities - as long as it doesn't damage them in the process (?). Matthew Westall - Earthling Bees, Castle Rock, CO - USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:20:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad In-Reply-To: <199909022311.TAA27165@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It seems to me that if several different approved, proven, and available >treatments are out there, the best approach would be to develop a rotation >scheme similar to those available for treating worms (fly larvae) in >horses. By alternating between 2 or more treatments, resistance >development would be greatly delayed, since the pests would need to develop >resistance to both forms of treatment at once. Otherwise, those mites (and >their descendents) that survive one type of treatment would likely be wiped >out by the second type. One critical factor that you must take into consideration: Safety. Cumophos is being issued under emergency conditions to combat two specific problems. The small hive beetle being the major one, resistant mites a second. If you do not have either of these problems, then avoid the chemical. Here is something I think that should be said over and over until we all get it: Do not depend on 99.9% solutions. Use anything that helps. Here is some of the list I have been putting together: 1) Screened bottom boards. This puts a slow, steady drain on the mites population. A constant 5-10% killing of the adult mite population that will be very hard for the mites to develop resistance against. 2) Good ventilation. Mites that are not attached to a host have a short life. The screen board gets the ones that fall, good ventilation dries out those questing for a new host. Mites "leak" and the more air you move past them, the better the chances that they will dry up and die. Many other aspects of the hive benefit from good air flow so there is no need to debate this one. This also helps with the tracheal mites. 3) Fight stress in general. If one area of health is neglected then other attacks will do more damage. Do not forget that the tracheal mites are still there and continue to weaken the bees. By now almost all hives have them, do not forget the grease patties. If a colony is under stress watch close for brood problems such as EFB and treat fast. If a hive gets into trouble get the feed on it. Nothing is cheaper than a little 1:1 syrup for helping a stressed hive. 4) Always follow the label directions. Where the labels allow room, follow best practices. Adjust to your areas timing for honey flows and winter conditions. 5) Re queen any hive that stays a problem for too long. A marked queen from a quality breeder can make your beekeeping experience much more enjoyable. While I like my home grown queens, they are still the first generation of purchased queens. All of the larger producers are working with stock that is much more tolerant of the problems we are seeing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:46:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MatHig@AOL.COM Subject: Apimondia faces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron et al, Has there been any plans made for the proposed meeting of Bee-L people at Vancouver? I'm leaving mid-MO right after Labor Day, slowly poking along the Lewis&Clark trail, driving north and west until I get there. For a couple of weeks I'll be weaned from Bill Gates' influence, so I may not get any posted messages after Sep 06. I assume there will be a message center / bulletin board at the meeting. Can you post any info there (like when & where to meet, etc.)? It looks like Wed is a really slack day. I'm really looking forward to the meeting, and especially to putting some real faces and some screen names together. Thanks, Matt Higdon Missouri, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:20:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a good hive size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moths can NOT kill a healthy group of bees. Moths can only destroy the wax frames AFTER the bees are dead or extremely weak. Something killed your bees, and I suggest you find what it was. George Imirie, Master Beekeeper starting my 67th year of beekeeping ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:39:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cronshaw Subject: FWD: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Honey Researchers to Discuss Honey's Role in Medicine and Functional Foods Honey in the Medicine Cabinet! August 27, 1999 2:49 PM EDT LONGMONT, Colo., Aug. 27 /PRNewswire/ -- Scientists will meet to discuss the future of the beekeeping industry at Apimondia'99, an International Congress to be held in Vancouver, BC, September 12-18, 1999. Of particular importance is the research into honey's promise for use in medicine, and as a functional food ingredient. (Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/19990827/LAF018 ) On Tuesday, September 13, Dr. Peter C. Molan, Associate Professor of Biochemistry at the University of Waikato, N Z will be a keynote speaker. In his presentation "Establishing Honey as a Recognized Medicine," Dr. Molan will present the latest research results of the effectiveness of honey against the antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria that pose problems for infection control in hospitals. These "super bugs" are as sensitive as the normal strains to the antibacterial activity of honey. Clinical trials have demonstrated that honey dressings rapidly clear bacteria from infected wounds. A clinical trial has also demonstrated that simply dressing with honey is just as effective as aggressive surgical removal of infected tissue as a treatment for necrotising fasciitis, the "flesh-eating" bacteria. Dr. Molan will also present research results showing the effectiveness of honey in killing the streptococci that cause that infection. Dr. Molan heads the university's Honey Research Unit, recognized for its expertise in the composition of honey and its antimicrobial activity. Current research includes: -- Assessment of the effectiveness of the antibacterial properties of honey against bacterial species involved in gastroenteritis. -- Identification of the oligosaccharide constituents of honey that are growth factors for probiotic bifidocbacteria. -- Comparing honeys for their content of components with antioxidant activity. To facilitate international sharing of honey research information, Dr. Molan will co-chair a scientific roundtable discussion at Apimondia'99 on September 12 at 7:30 P.M. Scientists involved in pharmaceutical and nutraceutical honey research will discuss their current work and future research needs. For information contact Mary Ann Johnson at 415-268-5421 or mjohnson@zfpartners.com. SOURCE National Honey Board © PR Newswire. All rights reserved. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:19:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al wrote: lots of snips > 1) Screened bottom boards. This puts a slow, steady drain on the mites > population. A constant 5-10% killing of the adult mite population that will > be very hard for the mites to develop resistance against. > There is research going on using smoke to get mite drop. The combination of screened bottom boards and smoke with 90 to 100% mite drop gives a classic, non lethal and fairly benign solution to varroa. So, get a smoke that gives near 100% mite drop with no harm to the bees in combination with a screened bottom board and you have a quick, easy, affordable solution to varroa that matches the efficacy of any pesticide. And, compared to putting strips in and out of hives, it is not labor intensive! I have heard that sumac smoke is a good varroa dropper. So, develop a screened bottom board with an insert for winter, grind up sumac and sell it as a smoker additive and you have built the better mousetrap and will be rich beyond measure, or until everyone else builds their own and picks the sumac for free. I'm working on it. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:25:26 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Barry and others, ISN'T THAT WHAT CHECKMITE STRIPS SUPpose TO DO TO APISTAN-RESISTANT VARROA MITES? HERE ARE FEW QUESTIONS TO MANNLAKE "Technical Update": How long CheckMite will last before varroa mites develop resistance to it? - If we follow the same use pattern as we used Apistan, it will not take long for mites to develop resistance. Therefore, we should be vigilant when we use CheckMite!! Did they say any thing about a strategy to reduce the rate of development of Check-Mite-resistant varroa mites? . As an advice,control of mites and bee diseases must enter the realm of integrated pet management (IPM). This strategy is based on use of chemicals combined with genetic and cultural methods. In addition, control tactics need to lower expectation to efficacy that is economically feasible rather than near absolute (>95% kill). Thus, the occurrence of more treatment resistant mites or pathogens will be reduced and the risk of contaminating honey will be decreased. This IPM approach is more rational and is akin to that used on crops and livestock. Cheers, Medhat Nasr Medhat Nasr, Ph.D. Research Scientist, Ontario Beekeepers' Association Dept. Environmental Biology University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1 Tel: (519) 824-4120 Fax:(519)837-0442 e-mail: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:36:43 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Man oh Man do I feel blessed to do beekeeping in Hawaii where we have no pest or disease of honey bees that require the use of all of the different concoctions and variations of chemicals and medications. I am very worried about all of the continued dialogue about the use of chemicals, pesticides, medications in compliance of labels and outside of compliance of labels. None of this will serve the industry very well when the "TODAY" show or "GOOD MORNING AMERICA " TV shows pick up on all of the possibilities and do a documentary on the abuses and subsequent contamination of US and Canadian honey. I was shocked when last year BEE Culture had a cartoon strip making light of the abuse of the strips with a beekeeper harvesting a box of honey and realizing that he had left the strips in all year. The honey consumers of the world buy honey with a perception that they are buying a healthy product that is good for them. If we keep talking about these abuses it will not surprise me if mainland US and Canadian honey gets a bad reputation and loses all of its market share. Instead of putting all of this energy into sharing each other's secret witches brew better ideas for chemical use why don't the bee keepers band together to get control of the National Honey Board away from the packers who have no concern for the beekeepers. Our US government officials would tell us that the NHB is for the betterment of the bee keeping industry. USDA motto is " Protecting America's Agriculture" For what ever reason bee keepers with their feelings of impotence when trying to deal with the US government continue to sit back and let the honey packers control the NHB. If bee keepers got control we could demand that the NHB promote US honey and not just subsidize honey packers who look for the cheapest honey available without concern for where it comes from or what is in the honey. Why do you think that the honey testing requirements are so loose. The packers while dropping their lobby money all around Washington, D.C. say that this is an Industry issue and should be self policed. Then they buy honey from all over the world and offer US honey producers peanuts for their honey and do zero or little testing because no testing is required and their position is that they pay lots of product liability insurance premiums and they do need to test. Sorry for staying quite for so long and I finally got enough of the talk about the many ways that contamination could be getting started by mainland US and Canadian honey producers. If any of you would like some honey that you can eat and feed to your children without fear or concern of chemicals drop me a line. line. All the Best to the Honey Bees Walter Patton--Hilo, HAWAII 1-808-964-5401 www.HawaiiHoney.Com hihoney@hawaiihoney.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits, Supercedure queens In-Reply-To: <199908301307.JAA02805@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 30 Aug 99, at 0:16, Allen Dick wrote: > I have been bothered by these discussions we have had because so much has > been based on opinion and hearsay, not scientific experiment and/or > observation. Therefore, I dug deep into my pocket and decided to order a > literatrure search. It becomes more and more obvious that it is no longer the 'message' but more the 'messanger' which cannot and will not be tolerated. The lengths that Mr. Dick is going to in an attempt to discredit my findings is bordering on ridiculous, and incidently a waste of time. I also conducted a search of a number of libraries during my research, nothing. I am not so naive that I can believe for a moment that it's being done to prove me correct. So go ahead, knock yourself out, waste your time! If Mr. Dick had bothered to read my original post correctly and I quote "We have been raising queens commercially for some 7-8 years now, and part of this has been the following of pedigrees, where the queens came from and how they were made and an evaluation of their final traits". Hardly "based on opinion and hearsay,not scientific experiment and/or observation", but then a few strokes on a keyboard can quickly destroy 8 years of effort and leave the writer feeling very righteous and smug. That original post of mine ' regressive queens' is original thought, not a copy from a book nor plagiarized from other's writings. I was hoping that it would provide food for thought and elicite discussion from a few enlightened beekeepers. I'm beginning to suggest that it was a total waste of time and just gave opening to quite massive ridicule and criticism. This year I have conducted experiments in FGMO, essential oil, and tobacco treatments ref. to Varroa, but I am certainly not going to post it and wait for the snide remarks to start again. > ...Thinking maybe we can increase the 'INFORMED' content of the list for > "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Only if one or two can refrain from being 'Net Gods' and trying to dictate policy to everyone, leave it to Aaron, it is his list and we are just visitors. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:49:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Forced feral bee absconding? In-Reply-To: <199909030423.AAA05814@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Someone called me last week to come out and remove a feral beehive from > the storage bin of his camper. When I arrived we found VERY few bees - > and larvae was squirming out of their cells, falling to the floor of the > storage compartment (alive)... > > The homeowner said he had backed his diesel truck up to the camper a > couple days before. He left the engine running and returned to notice > all kinds of bees flying 20-30 minutes later. It looks as though the > exhaust flooded the hive since the tailpipe was probably a foot away > from the bee entrance... Matt, If you stuck your nose in a diesel exhaust pipe for 20-30 minutes before you posted this, it never would have made it to the list. The bees got gassed, plain and simple. Seems like you've been had by a homeowner who did not major in rocket science. Aaron Morris - thinking CO. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:14:04 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Farrington/Bequia Canvas Subject: mite treatment Comments: To: Bee-L submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all; My bees and I live in Bequia, a small island in the West Indies. So = far, we are considered to be mite free; however, I am sure they will get = here sooner or later. I would like to start a counterattack before I end = up with an out-of-control situation. Reading posts and searching the = BEE-L archives have led me to evolve the following strategy.. =20 1) Screened bottom boards - simple, cost effective, environmentally = friendly. The merits of these boards are well known to List readers. 2) Food Grade Mineral Oil. = http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/mineral_oil.htm is a good discussion = by Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez. His theories and experiments are sensible = and workable. He advocates, among other things, a thin bead of FGMO on = the top bars. I am altering the good Doctors strategy just a bit. I = reason that if I can keep the mites away from the ladies in the first = place I won't have to deal with a hive full of them later. I will smear = a very light film of FGMO on my landing boards. This will be easy to = clean, easy to re-apply, easy to monitor, is enviromentally friendly and = will do the same job, I hope. 3) Essential Oils. http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa2htm#Essential is a = good discussion of essential oils to combat the dreaded mite. Near the = end of this discussion there is a section titled, Comments on Natural = Resistance to Varroatosis. The first paragraph of this section refers = to some bees being naturally resistant to mites. The authors speculate = that it is due to the bees foraging amongst plants that produce the = essential oils which have been proven to control mite populations. So, = I will plant lots of mint, which is useful for we humans as well, and = hope for the best. These steps might not be practical for commercial operations. If these = are practical ideas, and I don't see and glaring flaws here, then it = might be prudent for hobby beekeepers like myself to adopt a similar = strategy. Anything we can do to retard the build-up of mites tolerance = to Apistan, or whatever, has to benefit us all. I would welcome any comments or criticism of my strategy. Bob in Bequia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:58:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Smoke to get mite drop In-Reply-To: <199909031216.IAA12057@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bill Truesdell wrote: ... > There is research going on using smoke to get mite drop. I heard there was a session at EAS '99 by Penn State discussing this research. Any list members attend? Any reports? > I have heard that sumac smoke is a good varroa dropper. When this was reported at a recent meeting of my beekeeping association, it was also stated that attempts are being made to identify the active ingredient which may lead to a manufactured treatment (possibly another strip?). A member quicklu quipped, "Yeah, so we can buy something rather than burning sumac!" Before the concerns get posted, the sumac discussed is Staghorn Sumac (the mature red bobs), not poison sumac. Apologies for no Latin names. Aaron Morris - thinking Billy Joe Sumac Bobs! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John and Angie Partin Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Until you have experienced the terror of losing massive numbers of colonies to disease and mites, I can understand you worrying about all of the chemical talk. When you go into a bee yard and see the devastation that can be caused from not treating properly, you're not as concerned about the media stories as you are about saving your means for feeding your family. Until contaminated honey is found, you have to wonder if all of the hype about the chemicals and their proper use is being propagated by the chemical companies, and their huge lobbying budgets, in order to maximize profit. An example of their techniques was when the Apistan strip was changed so that it wouldn't last as long or work as good. I believe if it was going to be found, it would have already been found widespread throughout the industry. I do agree with your stand on the National Honey Board. It's pretty disheartening to be forcibly taxed and receive virtually no benefit from it. It's high time we cleaned the house of the fascist packers currently in control. My question is, How? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:11:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: mite treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob in Bequia You point out many treatments for varroa and tracheal mites. My problem with most is there are no good studies backing them up. As one who, when I started beekeeping, put menthol cough drops in his hive based on the advice of seasoned -but no longer- beekeepers, I value evidence supported by the scientific method. Which means repeatable by others testing the method. I have seen nothing on Dr. R's FGMO treatment since he left the list. There was supposed to be a study, but if someone knows the results, they have not printed it here. There are studies on essential oils going on now. Again, the results are not in yet. But they are doing it right. Right now, oil patties for tracheal mites and Apistan for varroa work. Apistan is a mild pesticide compared to others approved for use in the hive. Formic Acid, even if you call it natural, is not something to be taken lightly. I use crisco and not menthol. I always go for the less harmful over the more. And I go for the proved over the unproved. There are as many testimonials to the failure of several of the applications you mentioned compared to web sites touting their wonderful results. Back when essential oils were being pushed as the final solution for tracheal mites, there were many beekeers who lost everything using them. I occasionally throw on an oil soaked paper towel in the hives, but every fall treat with Apistan. If and when Varroa hits you, I would suggest you do the same. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:00:59 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Screened Bottom Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to try the screened bottom boards next spring, but is there somewhere to buy them? I know nothing about building one & really don't want to learn (I am extrememly unhandy with tools & wood). I would rather pay to buy them, but from where? Linda in Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:11:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: BEE-L is not sci.agriculture.beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen Dick wrote (in very small part): >> Comments >> were made to go search the extensive archives on any topic imaginable. >> Maybe I'm too new at these email lists but I feel I'm getting a bit >> overwhelmed when I have to go search some archives. > >Well, that's the price you pay for belonging to a big high volume, >quality-controlled list and wishing to learn from it. You do have to do your >homework. ******* Allen is perhaps more perceptive than he indicated in his lengthy message. Beekeepers need to consult an array of books that contain information about elementary beekeeping problems. That includes THE HIVE AND THE HONEY BEE (quite sholarly but inclusive) and the ABC and XYZ of BEEKEEPING. In addition, the monthly beekeeping magazines contain much pertinent information, though some of the columnists are out-dated. I recently read that 800 MILLION pages now exist on the Internet web sites, but the best "search engine" can only locate 17% of those pages. Far from the Internet giving us sudden enlightenment, we actually have, in many cases, a "pool of ignorance." Be careful! Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ****** * * "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" * * An old saying * **************************************************************************** ****** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:15:37 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: Smoke to get mite drop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A member quickly quipped, "Yeah, so we can buy something rather than burning >sumac!" > >Before the concerns get posted, the sumac discussed is Staghorn Sumac (the >mature red bobs), not poison sumac. Apologies for no Latin names. But, this is exactly why I would _want_ to buy something. I would have no idea how to tell what a Staghorn Sumac is. Rather than a strip though, why not sell Sumac Pellets or chips? I'd buy it! Linda in Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:03:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John and Angie Partin wrote:in part propagated by the chemical > companies, and their huge lobbying budgets, in order to maximize profit. An > example of their techniques was when the Apistan strip was changed so that > it wouldn't last as long or work as good. Could you elaborate. Never heard this. Are you talking about MiteACure or whatever it was called, compared to Apistan? If so, then there is much more to the story than bad chemical companies. Got to include bad beekeepers. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:37:40 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Smoke and varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > There is research going on using smoke to get mite drop. The > combination of screened bottom boards and smoke with 90 to 100% > mite drop gives a classic, non lethal and fairly benign solution > to varroa. So, get a smoke that gives near 100% mite drop with no > harm to the bees in combination with a screened bottom board and > you have a quick, easy, affordable solution to varroa that > matches the efficacy of any pesticide. The one problem that logically comes up, of course, is that smoke treatment, no matter how well it promotes mite drop, only can affect the small proportion of mites that happen to be on bees and not within capped cells. To be certain of getting all the mites, one would have to to into the hives on a daily basis (for how many days? 45?) and smoke. Can you imagine how disruptive this would be to a hive, to say nothing of how incredibly labor intensive it would be for even a small operation? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:01:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards In-Reply-To: <199909031459.KAA17218@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I would like to try the screened bottom boards next spring, but is there > somewhere to buy them? Betterbee (1-800-632-3379) has very nice screened bottom boards, which appear to be superior to the screen inserts offered by other vendors. I believe they're $7.50 each if you can get them. They're sellin' faster than they can make 'em. Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:46:43 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: DRONES STUCK IN COMB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BRIAN HENSEL wrote: > When checking the brood area, everything looks great > except there are a number of drones stuck half way out when emerging > from their cells. Some of the drones are alive and others are dead. The > bee's have started to remove some of them that have died, and you can > see where the bee's have cut into the wax cells in an effort to try and > free the drones. These drones are in worker cells, and the cappings > protrude outward above the comb surface. This has occurred in my best > productive hive and one other hive, and I was wondering if this is a > sign of a problem. This is most definitely a sign of a problem, which most beekeepers will see from time to time: Your queen has run out of sperm and become a drone layer. The best treatment, IMHO, is to find the queen and kill her and combine the colony with another good one. One other possibility is that if the hive has been queenless for some time you might have laying workers. However, from what you relate here this does not seem to be the trouble. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:00:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) lindena from arc0a75.bf.sover.net [209.198.85.75] 209.198.85.75 Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:03:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: News item: Linden Apiaries sets a new 24-hour hive weight gain record! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit News item: Linden Apiaries sets a new 24-hour hive weight gain record! In 24 hours, a 2-queen colony at Paul Harlow Farm on Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, gathered 23.75 lbs. (10.77 kg.) of nectar, primarily from Japanese Knotweed, or bamboo (Polygonum cuspidatum (Sieb. & Zucc.)). There may be other hives that made more honey, as there are 12 colonies in the beeyard. Previous record was 19.75 lbs. set September 6, 1998. Other hives on platform scales made 11 lbs. in Westminster, VT, and 16.75 and 11 lbs. at a location in Walpole, NH. 16.5 lbs. was measured in the home apiary in Alstead, NH, the site of last year's record. The flow started August 31, with modest gains in the 1-4 lb. range. September 1 saw gains of 7 to 12.5 lbs. Some scale hives more than doubled their gain in one day's time. This hard to eradicate plant has taken over many stream banks where it prevents erosion. Fortunately, it has no thorns, and is not toxic, and in fact is edible in spring (personal communication). Like purple loosestrife, it crowds out native species. Both are significant honey plants where common. Sometimes introduced plants make the best honeyplants, as they have a competitive advantage, forming monocultures, which bees can efficiently utilize. It appears that bamboo is drought resistant, the flow depending only upon the weather (sun and warmth, low wind) to produce, and the number of field bees available to collect the nectar. Last year there was a similar stretch of good weather, with the record coming on the last day, the hottest, at 80°. Yesterday the temperature was closer to 90° in the Connecticut River Valley. The best flow ever measured by this correspondent was 81 lbs, in 9 days in Bellows Falls, VT, at my sister’s home. While short-lived, the bamboo has become very important for many beekeepers, filling the hives with winter stores, invaluable in this drought year. It performs better than goldenrod-aster in the Walpole-Westminster area. In awe of nature, Charles F. Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Beekeeping Supplies Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-’89 1 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 USA/EUA 603-756-9056 Residence: Latitude: 43° 05’ North, Longitude: 72° 21’ 15" West, Elevation 1200’ Keeper of 43 two-queen colonies for honey, pollen, propolis, pollination, nuclei, beeswax, apitherapy, and education Learn, experiment, innovate, educate! Charles Frederic Andros July 13, 1999 http://www.webriver.com/tn-eppc/manual/polygo.htm Japanese Knotweed Polygonum cuspidatum (Sieb. & Zucc.) Japanese knotweed, commonly known as crimson beauty, Mexican bamboo, Japanese fleece flower, or Reynoutria, was probably introduced to the US as an ornamental. Initially useful for erosion control, as an ornamental, and for landscape screening, Japanese knotweed spreads quickly to form dense thickets that can alter natural ecosystems or interfere with landscaping. It is a semi-woody, bushy perennial and a member of the Polygonaceae (Knotweed) family. Height: Japanese knotweed can grow 1-3 m (3-10 ft) tall. Stem: The stout stems are glaucous, and erect, swelling at leaf axils. Leaves: The broadly ovate leaves are petiolate, truncate to somewhat triangular, and pointed at the tip. Length is generally 5-15 cm (2-6 in) long, and 5-12 cm (2-5 in) wide, with a prominent basal angle. Flowers: Minute greenish-white flowers appear in axillary panicles with three styles and minute stigmas. Outer sepals are narrowly winged along the midrib. Blooms August- September. Fruit: The fruiting calyxes are wing-angled, 8-9 mm long (0.3 in). Achene is triangular, shiny, 3-4 mm (0.1-0.15 in) long. Life History Knotweed spreads rapidly from stout long rhizomes. Seeds are distributed by water in floodplains, transported with fill dirt, and to a lesser extent are wind-blown. Populations escaped from neglected gardens, and discarded cuttings are common urban paths of distribution. Once established, populations are quite persistent and can out-compete existing vegetation. Origin and Distribution Japanese knotweed, native to Japan, was introduced into the United States prior to 1890. By the turn of the century, it was established in the eastern United States and was reported naturalized around Philadelphia, PA, Schenectady, NY, and Atlantic Highlands, NJ. Knotweed was collected in the Tennessee region in the 1940s and is now found throughout the state. In 1966, it was considered "one of the most persistent and aggressive of all perennial weeds." Current distribution is from Newfoundland to Ontario, in many parts of the north and southeastern US, and west to Minnesota and Iowa. Similar Species There are several native species of Polygonum that resemble Japanese knotweed in the seedling stage. Japanese knotweed is distinguished by greater overall height, and vigorous growth of stout rhizomes. This plant is a popular ornamental, and many cultivated varieties are produced by the nursery industry. Varieties may be difficult to distinguish, but most share the same invasive characteristics and will respond to the same treatment as the parent plant. Habitat Japanese knotweed can tolerate a variety of adverse conditions including full shade, high temperatures, high salinity, and drought. It is found near water sources, in low-lying areas, waste places, utility rights of way, and around old homesites. It can quickly become an invasive pest in natural areas after escaping from cultivated gardens. It poses a significant threat to riparian areas, where it can survive severe floods. It is rapidly colonizing scoured shores and islands. Management Recommendations Mechanical Control Grubbing: This method is appropriate for small initial populations or environmentally sensitive areas where herbicides cannot be used. Using a pulaski or similar digging tool, remove the entire plant including all roots and runners. Juvenile plants can be hand-pulled depending on soil conditions and root development. Any portions of the root system not removed will potentially resprout. All plant parts, including mature fruit, should be bagged and disposed of in a trash dumpster to prevent re-establishment. Herbicidal Control Cut Stump Treatment: Use this method in areas where vines are established within or around non-target plants or where vines have grown into the canopy. This treatment remains effective at low temperatures as long as the ground is not frozen. Glyphosate: Cut the stem 5 cm (2 in) above ground level. Immediately apply a 25% solution of glyphosate and water to the cross-section of the stem. A subsequent foliar application of glyphosate may be required to control new seedlings and resprouts. Triclopyr: Cut the stem 5 cm (2 in) above ground level. Immediately apply a 25% solution of triclopyr and water to the cross-section of the stem. A subsequent foliar application may be necessary to control new seedlings. Foliar Spray Method: Use this method to control large populations. It may be necessary to precede foliar applications with stump treatments to reduce the risk of damaging non-target species. Glyphosate: Apply a 2% solution of glyphosate and water to thoroughly wet all foliage. Do not apply so heavily that herbicide will drip off leaves. The ideal time to spray is after surrounding vegetation has become dormant (October-November) to avoid affecting non-target species. A 0.5% non-ionic surfactant is recommended in order to penetrate the leaf cuticle, and ambient air temperature should be above 65°F. Triclopyr: Apply a 2% solution of triclopyr and water to thoroughly wet all foliage. Do not apply so heavily that herbicide will drip off leaves. The ideal time to spray is after surrounding vegetation has become dormant (October-November) to avoid affecting non-target species. A 0.5% non-ionic surfactant is recommended in order to penetrate the leaf cuticle, and ambient air temperature should be above 65°F. Bibliography Ahrens, J. F. Preliminary results with glyphosate for control of Polygonum cuspidatum. Proceedings of the Northeast Weed Control Conference 29:326; 1975. Child, L. E.; De Wall, L. C.; Wade, P. M.; Palmer, J. P. Control and management of Reynoutria species (knotweed). Aspects of Applied Biology 29:295-307; 1992. Figueroa, P. F. Japanese knotweed herbicide screening trial applied as a roadside spray. Proceedings of the Western Society of Weed Science 42:288-298; 1989. Garcia de Arevalo, R. C.; Lusarreta, C. A.; Neyra, C. B.; Sanchez, M A.; Algarra, P. J. H. Chemical control of annual weeds in field beans (Vicia faba) in central Spain. Weed Science 40(1):96-100; 1992. Gleason, H. A.; Cronquist, A. Manual of vascular plants of northeastern United States and adjacent Canada. 2nd ed. The New York Botanical Garden; 1991. Hirose, T.; Kitajima, K. Nitrogen uptake and plant growth. I. Effect of nitrogen removal on growth of Polygonum cuspidatum Annals of Botany 58(4):479-486; 1986. Jennings, V. M.; Fawcett, R. S. Weed control: Japanese polygonum (Polygonum cuspidatum Sieb. and Zuce.). PM Iowa State Univ. Science Technol. Ames. Coop. Ext. Serv. 762, 2; 1977. Muenscher, W. C. Weeds. 2nd ed. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 167; 1992. Patterson, D. T. The history and distribution of five exotic weeds in North Carolina. Castanea 41:177-180; 1976. Pridham, A. M. S.; Bing, A. Japanese bamboo (Polygonum cuspidatum, Polygonum sachalinens). Plants Garden 31(2):56-57; 1975. Radford, A. E.; Ahles, H. E.; Bell, C. R. Manual of vascular flora of the Carolinas. Chapel Hill, NC: The University of North Carolina Press; 1968. Scott, R.; Marrs, R. H. Impact of Japanese knotweed and methods of control. Aspects of Applied Biology 291-296; 1984. Steffey, J. The buckwheat family. American Horticultural Society 59(7):10-11; 1980. Young, R. G.; Balogh, R. A.; Sitler, T. R.; Aharrah, E. C. An investigation of Japanese fleeceflower (Polygonum cuspidatum) planted on strip mines in Clarion and Venango counties, Pennsylvania. Proceedings 1982 Symposium on Surface Mining, Hydrology, Sedimentology, and Reclamation. Office of Engineering Services, University of Kentucky, 143-152; 1982. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits, Supercedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The lengths that Mr. Dick is going to in an attempt to discredit my > findings is bordering on ridiculous, and incidently a waste of time. Gee, David, and here I was thinking we were having an intelligent discussion. I was taught in school that science proceeds by people challenging ideas and developing rigourous truths. Obviously you are taking this personally. I'm sorry to see that, because it wasn't meant that way. I've found debating here very informative and worthwhile, and to me a good idea is a good idea, no matter the source. I get lots of notes from people who think the same. > I also conducted a search of a number of libraries during my > research, nothing. I am not so naive that I can believe for a moment > that it's being done to prove me correct. So go ahead, knock yourself > out, waste your time! Well, I think that sharing ideas, examining and challenging ideas, and learning is seldom a waste of time. FWIW, I think was the only one to comment on your regressive queen idea, and to try to think of a mechanism that would justify your rather surprising conclusions. Moreover, I have sitting in my 'drafts' box a rather long and involved post that I'm working on excoriating your critics and justifying your actions in the Apistan over winter matter. Since it is a complex question, I have not had the time to polish the argument in it. > If Mr. Dick had bothered to read my original post correctly and I quote > "We have been raising queens commercially for some 7-8 years now, and > part of this has been the following of pedigrees, where the queens > came from and how they were made and an evaluation of their final > traits". Hardly "based on opinion and hearsay,not scientific > experiment and/or observation", Well, I think I did read it correctly, several times, and I also temper what I read with other information. I have several times tried fairly seriously to locate your advertised premises, since my family owns land near Orillia and I am near there often. So far no luck. And I have enquired about your reputation as a breeder -- after all I do buy queens once in a while. > but then a few strokes on a keyboard can quickly destroy 8 years of effort and leave the writer feeling very righteous and smug. If it works for you, go for it, but I do not think I can destroy anything that is real by asking questions and carefully reporting facts. > That original post of mine ' regressive queens' is original thought, > not a copy from a book nor plagiarized from other's writings. I was > hoping that it would provide food for thought and elicite discussion > from a few enlightened beekeepers. I'm beginning to suggest that it > was a total waste of time and just gave opening to quite massive > ridicule and criticism. Well, thank you, I know one enlightened beekeeper did comment on the idea, so I can't account for the lack of interest in others. I do appreciate your sharing the idea with us, and I am sure that over time we will 'test everything...". > This year I have conducted experiments in FGMO, essential oil, and > tobacco treatments ref. to Varroa, but I am certainly not going to > post it and wait for the snide remarks to start again. Well, if it is science it can stand some criticism. If not, then you are wise to keep it hidden. > Only if one or two can refrain from being 'Net Gods' and trying to > dictate policy to everyone, "Fearing not I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preached..." (Robert Zimmerman) > leave it to Aaron, it is his list and we are just visitors. Not exactly true, but close. There are things behind the scenes that keep this running. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:18:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk In-Reply-To: <199909031352.JAA14902@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John and Angie Partin wrote.." An example of their techniques was when the Apistan strip was changed so that it wouldn't last as long or work as good". What's all this about? When was it changed and how? Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited Tel 44 (0) 1256 473177 Brook House, Alençon Link, Fax 44 (0) 1256 473179 Basingstoke, Hampshire RG21 7RD, UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:35:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit After receiving several private emails on this thread, I thought I had better clarify my initial thoughts. My thanks to those who sent me the emails. Others have since elaborated on related issues of chemical use in the hives and it's safety and I must add, too, that I'm not sure why Walter takes the views and fears he does regarding this issue except that his last statement about making a plug for his "pure" honey might be the real motive? Anyway, I'm in agreement with others that a rotation of approved methods for mite treatment is good and can extend the usefulness of these methods by lowering the ability of the mite to become resistant. However, Dr. Nasr raises good questions we should be asking about CheckMite. My main gripe is still with the advertising that Mann Lake used in their flyer. One source informed me that they had called Mann Lake and questioned the same ad. "In particular I asked about whether the comparison included Apistan resistant bees. She(the gal whom answered their sales line) confirmed this was the case along the lines that "fluvinate resistant bees seem to be 'everywhere' - including my home-state which is why I should RUN to buy CheckMite immediately"." Another source informed me that in fact the study done was "not in Clear Lake SD but elsewhere in SD." Making a statement like, "Treating varroa mites with Fluvalinate strips showed actual varroa population increase of 64 percent." deserves a big DUH, but only after we find out the fact(?) that the bees used in the testing were resistant to the fluvalinate. Is this a case of pulling selected information from a study to bolster a products salability? -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:29:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John and Angie Partin Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am talking about the first strip that came out. It's entirely possible that it wasn't Apistan. Guess I better have my ducks in a row before I start spouting off about the chemical giants that monopolize our mite treatment. I'll give you my best elaboration of the issue. In an experiment on fluvalinate resistance, a lady donated some of the strips in question, that she had saved from earlier years, to the study. These strips blew all other variables,especially the "new" Apistan strips, out of the water concerning mite kill. I'm sorry I can't remember the study to refer you to it. Hopefully someone else on the list is familiar with it and can enlighten both of us. I'll definitely include bad beekeepers, though I'm not sure what you're wanting me to include them in. I have to believe that misuse of fluvalinate is responsible for the resistance we've encountered. I'll also include the government for making it so hard to get alternative treatments labeled during a crisis. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:44:03 -0600 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Forced feral bee absconding? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & all, I probably wasn't clear with my question - Why didn't the exhaust kill the bees? Seems to me you'd almost have to kill bees to get them to move out of their hive, which is why I was looking at the situation as more coincidence with the exhaust - and looking for more possibilities. There were hardly any dead bees under the hive, if any. And the larvae was alive.... Were they already stressed by the wax moth larvae and the exhaust convinced them? If just enough exhaust will send the bees scurrying - ??? perhaps it could be useful as a tool to get feral queens to move. Matthew > > all kinds of bees flying 20-30 minutes later. It looks as though > the > > exhaust flooded the hive since the tailpipe was probably a foot away > > > from the bee entrance... > > If you stuck your nose in a diesel exhaust pipe for 20-30 minutes > before you > posted this, it never would have made it to the list. The bees got > gassed, ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:06:26 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Betterbee (1-800-632-3379) has very nice screened bottom boards, which appear to be >superior to the screen inserts offered by other vendors. Aaron-Thank you so much for the reply! I called Betterbee, but they only have the inserts that go on top of the bottom board. I am concerned about debris build-up between the screen & the bottom board. Is there a screened bottom board being made? Is it possible (give enough support to the hive)? Linda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:13:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John and Angie Partin Subject: Re: Smoke to get mite drop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope this isn't the archives! It has been reported that grapefruit leaves are also an effective mite drop tool. Sorry for the hearsay but, I can't remember the source of this report. I have a hard time not responding to messages even though I have no source. Must you have the source to throw new information in the discussion? Isn't it a mistake to discount new information just because the informer doesn't have a study to back it up? Won't it make people with valuable information hesitant to share it if they're afraid someone is going to publicly ridicule it. And finally, what if a subject has been covered in the archives, does that mean you can't get new information from new beekeepers who weren't on the BEE-L when the subject was discussed the first time around? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:51:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Smoke and varroa Comments: To: tvf@umich.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Fischer wrote: a lot more than I copied, just so it would get past the moderators... > getting all the mites, one would have to to into the hives on a daily basis (for > how many days? 45?) and smoke. Can you imagine how disruptive this would be to > a hive, to say nothing of how incredibly labor intensive it would be for even a > small operation? > > Ted Fischer > Dexter, Michigan USA There went my millions. Still, it seems a good disruptive application to the varroa cycle. It changes the mite drop from 4% to near 100% and no reinfestation until emergence of the next wave of brood. You could smoke the hive with smoke in the fall, when the hive is near broodless and accomplish a major hit on the cycle. The bees would go into the winter near varroa free. Well, back to the drawing board. How about all the excess cigarette manufacturing base we have in this country? If we could teach the bees to smoke sumac cigarettes.... Nope, that wouldn't work. They are all underage. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 19:54:02 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kai-M. Engfer" Subject: Araucaria seeds wanted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Dear all, I am looking for Araucaria araucana seeds (monkey puzzle tree). Who will be able to send me some? Thanks for an answer. Kai-M. Engfer, Tel. 04347-8861 \| Ostlandstr. 1, http://insel.heim.at/mainau/330017 -|||8< D-24247 Mielkendorf /| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:58:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John and Angie Partin wrote: > > I am talking about the first strip that came out. It's entirely possible > that it wasn't Apistan. I think you are talking about what happened about the time resistance was showing up along with a batch of strips that were not up to snuff. There was a lot of confusion as to what was happening and both resistance and strip quality were suspect. If I recall correctly, the suspect strips needed to be scratched and they were as good as new. But if placed in the hive without scratching, they were less effective. No conspiracy, only quality control, if that. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:51:27 -0400 Reply-To: Garry Libby Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Massachusetts Fall Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Massachusetts Beekeepers Association 1999 Fall Meeting=20 Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 Time: Registration starts at 8:30 AM Place: Topsfield Fairgrounds, Coolidge Hall U.S. Rt. 1 Topsfield, Massachusetts=20 This will be an all day meeting. Our featured speaker is Dr John Harbo, = of the U.S.D.A. Baton Rouge Lab. Who will be discussing His ongoing = research on Varroa Mites and Dr. Thomas Rinderer=92s research with the = Russian Bees that should be for sale this Fall to queen breeders and to = the public this coming spring. Come find out just how gentle these bees = are supposed to be and if they will produce as much honey as rumors say = they will. There will be commercial exhibits, a raffle and a silent auction to = benefit the association. You are asked to bring an item for this silent = auction and invited to bid on items.=20 Entries for the annual honey show must be submitted NO LATER THAN 9:00 = am Entries no longer have to be produced in Massachusetts.=20 The luncheon buffet has a hearty selection of hot and cold items, soup, = salad and desserts. Lunch has been rated excellent by all who attended = in the past. There will be morning coffee, juice and pastries. Advance registration is $20 including lunch per member. County = membership doesn't make you an MBA member. Registration at the door will = be more expensive and maybe limited. Please send the form below with a = check payable to the M.B.A. by October 1st, 1999 to:John Heemskerk, 60 = Maple Street, Needham, MA 02492-2307.=20 Tel: 781-444-3709.=20 Name (s)______________________________________________________ Street________________________________________________________ City, State, Zip_________________________________________________ Phone__________________________ Members: Number attending_____@$20_____@$10_____Total $________ $20. for Program and Lunch per person. $10. for Program Registration and = Morning coffee Only per person. Non-Members:Number attending___@$25_____@$15_____Total $______ $25. for Program and Lunch per person. $15. for Program Registration and = Morning coffee Only per person. For more info contact: Garry Libby Attleboro, MA LibBEE@email.msn.com 508-226-3731 fax: 617-507-5814 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:13:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: FGMO study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you recall from my post on FGMO and essential oils, I wondered about any tests that have been run on FGMO by Dr. R.. I got an email from a participant of this list who wants to remain anonymous, and for good reason. I recall the flames from the supporters of Dr. R. which was one of the several reasons the list became moderated... even if Allan seems to want to heat things up a bit. It appears that results are in fact in, but not what was posted by Dr. R. I have edited the comments to protect the person who sent me the email. I am sure there are those on this list who either participated in the test or know someone who did and would be willing to comment. If not, email me and I will sanitize your comments. I realize that this is a poor way to do things, since it is hearsay, or even could be coming from my own pen, but you will have to trust a bit. Here is what was said. Comments appreciated. Parenthesis are mine: These studies (Dr. R's) all seemed to be started and never completed. The owners of the hives all make the observation that he (Dr. R) never returned to make the regular observations. It seemed he was merely testing application methods without regard to the results obtained. Nearly all the colonies were overwhelmed by varroa and died. I have read his experiment papers on the web site. In my considered opinion, the results he claims were obtained, were made up from whole cloth. To make the point as clear as possible, none of the beekeepers involved with his study will use the anti-varroa methods described in the studies. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Fanning Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, I think your idea is a very good one. I plan to do that but not this year. There was another mite strip on the market for one year called "miticure". It killed both mites. Problem was, it also killed bees. It was taken off the market because of that. I prefer to wait for others to experiment with new drugs unless I have an immediate, well defined need. As far as I know we have no small hive beetles in this area and the varroa is not immune to apistan. Therefore I am using apistan this year. See ya next Thursday (Sep 9) at our next meeting, Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Churchill To: Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 5:54 PM Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad > At 01:54 PM 9/2/99 -0500, Barry Birkey wrote: > >Received a flyer from Mann Lake today called "Technical Update." A 22" X > >17", single fold, four color with some very LARGE copy basically selling the > >new CheckMite+++ISI pest control strip. > > > > >"+ICI-Treating varroa mites with Fluvalinate strips showed actual varroa > >population increase of 64%. > > > >"+ICI-Treating with Permethrin strips showed a 67% varroa mite reduction. > > > >"+ICI-Treating with Coumaphos strips showed a 92% varroa mite reduction. > > > >"+ICI-Treating with Formic Acid Gel packs showed a 26% varroa mite reduction." > > > > > It seems to me that if several different approved, proven, and available > treatments are out there, the best approach would be to develop a rotation > scheme similar to those available for treating worms (fly larvae) in > horses. By alternating between 2 or more treatments, resistance > development would be greatly delayed, since the pests would need to develop > resistance to both forms of treatment at once. Otherwise, those mites (and > their descendents) that survive one type of treatment would likely be wiped > out by the second type. > Mike Churchill | "The nice thing about standards is > mike.churchill@montesano.com | that there are so many to choose from" > http://www.netmechanic.com - Power Tools for Your Web Site > Link and HTML testing, Server Reliability Testing, Image Size Reduction > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:47:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Smoke and varroa Bill Truesdell wrote: > There is research going on using smoke to get mite drop. The > combination of screened bottom boards and smoke with 90 to 100% > mite drop gives a classic, non lethal and fairly benign solution > to varroa. So, get a smoke that gives near 100% mite drop with no > harm to the bees in combination with a screened bottom board and > you have a quick, easy, affordable solution to varroa that > matches the efficacy of any pesticide. Ted Fischer wrote: > The one problem that logically comes up, of course, is that smoke treatment, > no matter how well it promotes mite drop, only can affect the small > proportion of mites that happen to be on bees and not within capped cells. > To be certain of getting all the mites, one would have to to into the hives > on a daily basis (for how many days? 45?) and smoke.... The thought that occurred to me was more along the lines of "since some of the mites will be out on the bees and some will be in capped cells, then the smoke will only affect the bees that are on the mites (same as the chemicals on the strips)." The question that then logically comes to my mind is "when a varroa mite comes out of a cell, how many days before it enters another cell to reproduce?" You would have that may days you could wait before doing the smoke drop treatment again. My guess is that you ought to be able to do it on a weekly interval and eventually get all the mites, but I don't know the details of the mite's development and life history to know whether or not this is true. The length of time the mites stay in a cell that was just capped until they emerge is, I assume, the length of time it takes for the bee to develop. That would most probably mean that the smoke treatments (at periodic intervals) would have to be repeated until all the cells that were capped at the time of the initial treatment had emerged. So again, my guess would be that if one week intervals were sufficient, then you would probably need at least four smoke drop treatments at one week intervals, including the initial treatment. Now, somebody who knows more about the mite's biology than I do, please respond and tell us the length of time (minimum and maximum) before the newly emerged mite goes into another cell. If it can or does go into a new cell immediately upon emerging from the old cell, then, yes, daily smoke treatments would probably be necessary to get this method to work. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:55:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tony Dixon Subject: Re: Smoke to get mite drop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I have heard that sumac smoke is a good varroa dropper. Others have been working on the issue of using smoke to get mite drop. USDA scientists have found that smoke from Creosote Bush (a comon desert shrub) achieved a 90 to 100 percent mite knockdown after 1 minute, and dried Grapefruit leaves (another commonly available material) knocked down 90 to 95 percent of the mites. A summary can be found at: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/mitesmoke0897.htm. We also know that Tobacco smoke also will cause mite drop. The problem was to get good smoke exposure and achieve adequate mite drop without harming the bees. Well, what else is new! Isn't that the problem of all chemical mite controll measures? I too keep hopeing that we may discover an inexpensive procedure that works well in the bee yard. Tony Dixon Port Alberni BC Vancouver Island's Wet West Side ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:55:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tony Dixon Subject: Re: Apimondia faces Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Has there been any plans made for the proposed meeting of Bee-L people at >Vancouver? I propose that you be deligated to post a message for a meeting of Bee-Liners at Apimondia. Wednesday is a tour day . Perhaps a breakfast meeting will least impact other plans for the day? Tony Dixon Port Alberni BC Vancouver Island's Wet West Side ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:20:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Birkey wrote: > Making a statement like, "Treating varroa mites with Fluvalinate strips > showed actual varroa population increase of 64 percent." deserves a big DUH, > but only after we find out the fact(?) that the bees used in the testing > were resistant to the fluvalinate. Is this a case of pulling selected > information from a study to bolster a products salability? > One always must treat statements like this with a grain of salt. I could duplicate this in my yard today in this manner. Start with a hive that is relatively clean of mites. Add brood from colonies known to have varroa or have not been treated yet this cycle. Measure in 30 days. Simply because we have not completed the treatment cycle and started with a clean colony means that the introduction of brood frames will automatically cause an increase in numbers. We can't count mitesin cappedcellsso they don't count in the ad. It's just like the old Right Guard commercial. Put right guard under your left arm and your favorite under your right arm. 4 out of 5 (the same population % of right handed people) will find their left arm drier.(don't crucify me I don't remember the number) Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:06:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John and Angie Partin Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After further research, it was Apistan. The very first strips they came out with, when mites first got started and nobody knew what was killing their bees, were awesome and lasted like 2 years. That didn't make beekeepers have to buy new strips nearly as often as would be desired by the shareholders. Then they changed the material that the strips are made of. The first ones resembled the material used to make those white flea collars. I'm definitely not talking about the ones that had to be scratched and drove up the sales of wire brushes. I'm glad you brought that up though. I'm still waiting on my check to reimburse me for my death losses and profit loss due to their negligence. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Truesdell To: Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 1:58 PM Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk > John and Angie Partin wrote: > > > > I am talking about the first strip that came out. It's entirely possible > > that it wasn't Apistan. > > I think you are talking about what happened about the time > resistance was showing up along with a batch of strips that were > not up to snuff. There was a lot of confusion as to what was > happening and both resistance and strip quality were suspect. > If I recall correctly, the suspect strips needed to be scratched > and they were as good as new. But if placed in the hive without > scratching, they were less effective. No conspiracy, only quality > control, if that. > Bill T > Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:38:30 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Change in your subscription options for the BEE-L list In-Reply-To: <199909031904.PAA25678@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Aaron Morris has just altered your > subscription options for the BEE-L list as per the "SET BEE-L REVIEW" > command.... Before everyone asks, it was an inadvertent mistake. Rest assured that all subscriptions are still the same as they were this morning. Please don't send me mail on this, I've already received more than I can possibly answer. Sincere apologies, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:23:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: I hope this isn't (in) the archives In-Reply-To: <199909031721.NAA21228@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seeing as you asked... > I hope this isn't the archives! You hope? You *know* you should check, and didn't look? It only takes a few seconds at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html. A simple 30 second search for 'grapefruit' would have turned up 13 hits, a quick scan of which seems to indicate that 7 previous to yours discussed the use of grapefruit leaves as smoke for varroa control. > I can't remember the source of this report. Maybe it was the National Enquirer. Someone who misunderstood a news report? The local idiot? A grapefruit grower with a leaf disposal problem? Nope, luckily not. One credible source was a talk by Dr. Frank Eischen, of the USDA in Weslaco, Texas, as related to us here on BEE-L by Michael L. Wallace on Thu, 14 Nov 1996... "On November 7-9, the Texas Beekeeping Association had their annual convention, this year in Houston. On Friday, Dr. Frank Eischen, of the USDA in Weslaco, Texas, delivered a talk on "Natural Chemicals for the Control of Varroa". Much of what he shared was news that we have discussed here on the BEE-L. He, of course, talked about the use of the chemicals that we are already familiar with, as well as essential oils. They have seen moderate to good results with the essential oils, which jives with the reports we have encountered on the LIST. However, he touched on an aspect of delivery that sounds very promising and was exciting to me. Now I know there have been reports, recently, as to the negative effects of smoking your bees, but that's what I want to talk about. They have been experimenting with the use of various plant materials in the smoker. I can't remember how many different plants they have tried, but some that they were most interested in were citrus, Melaleuca, Tansy, Cedar, and I can't remember the rest of the list. There were about three other items on the list". > Isn't it a mistake to discount new information just because the informer doesn't > have a study to back it up? Won't it make people with valuable information > hesitant to share it if they're afraid someone is going to publicly ridicule > it. Well, that is always a concern. Personally we try not to ridicule valuable information. To that end we defended Dr. Rodriguez when he first mentioned his FGMO mite cure until further information was available. We have a recent report that his methods are not what he had hoped, but we did tolerate his expounding them, sometimes at length in flowery terms. We also give respectful audience to David's unconventional theories on regressive queens and to others on other matters, because we just don't know until topics are discussed and researched further. Unfortunately some people consider the routine and justified questioning of their sources and methods to be an attack and ridicule, rather than an appropriate and critical examination of the origin and derivation of their thought. > I have a hard time not responding to messages even though I have no source. > Must you have the source to throw new information in the discussion? Having heard about something is not the same as knowing about it enough to say something in public. A few seconds of research can often change that, and we encourage people to quickly scan the archives and other sources before posting. The mandate of this list is informed discussion, not casual chat, which is very different. Everyone does not need to participate in every discussion, That would be simply unworkable. In any discussion, hopefully those with the best quality material will go first. If they have, then you will see that in the logs. In this case the discussion of smoke for varroa control has been taking place over a period of years. If you have anything *new* to add, it is most welcome. You may have noticed that this list is on a university server. Ideally, content should meet university level standards for discussion and rigour where possible. Members are also expected to do some study in private in preparation for addressing the list. Maybe if you were about to speak to 800 people at a meeting, you would go unprepared, but most of us would at least check some references and be ready for questions. > And finally, what if a subject has been covered in the archives, does > that mean you can't get new information from new beekeepers who weren't on > the BEE-L when the subject was discussed the first time around? We do *all* the time. Many new ideas appear here. Some for the first time. The best procedure to earn respect,if you think you have something to offer, or to add, is to make sure you know what you are talking about. Do a quick search and see if someone said what you had to say earlier and better. If so and you still want to bring it up, then it is a simple matter to draw attention to the subject, or quote a portion of a previous post, and request discussion or clarification of some point. If not, then you can request details of the matter if you don't know, or make a statement if you think you do. Sources of information are routinely demanded in university level discussion. The assumption is that if you don't know the source or derivation -- at least vaguely -- chances are you don't really know what you are talking about. Unsubstantiated rumours and hearsay have their place, but they are a pretty low quality input in most cases, and have dragged this list into disrepute with some valuable and kinowledgeable bee scientists. We'd like to se that change. Please do not get the idea that I -- or the people who run this list -- are wanting anyone to feel bad or hurt, or to go away. We want a high level of discussion here so that we all can benefit. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 22:34:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: mite treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello world, Regarding the trials using FGMO as a treatment against V.j. I think the results that you were referring to have been posted on the following address: http://apiservices.com/index_us.htm under the heading: MINERAL OIL as an alternative for honey bee mites- Dr. Pedro Rodrigez I found that the work from a scientific point of view lacked rigour- shame!! Peter. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:08:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: FW: varroase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From the French BEE-L . Awkward translation courtesy by AltaVisat and patches by Allen... --- Hello with all Until 1997, I treated my hives with thin straps of Apistan, and I of it was rather content (in fact, my hives without doubts were infested with Varroas, but their number was insufficient so that I notice anything). In August 1998 (the year passed, therefore), following the recommendations of the apicole federation (Belgium), I gave up Apistan to use Apivar. At the time to treat, not problems, the conditions of use were clear and rather similar to those to which I was accustomed. Spring 1999, my colonies were beautiful, into full forms and harvest was rather good. Summer 1999, at the time to collect, I am perceiving that one of my hives which was apparement in good health 6 weeks before found now completely empty (of food, of brood, no apparent traces of diseases, and no bees died on the floor, short EMPTY). My hives not being close to my residence, I often do not have the occasion to be able to observe the behavior of my bees. At the end of August (27 to be precise), I realized all the same that there was many bees dead or dying on the path and that good number among had the wings damaged, which made me, finally, to think of Varroa. Information taken near my usual apiary provider, this one said to me that I was not the only case and that it had many customers who came to seek to him of Apistan after having tested Apivar the last year. I thus put the thin straps Apistan and I counted more than 500 varroas died after the first day of use, on a floor space of + / - 400 cm². My hives not seeming to me very strong, I also undertook to provide them " light " syrup (sugar 2Kg for 3 liters of water) and I hope well to continue at a rate of 300 ml per day during ten days. And after only, I will nourish with " heavy " syrup for the wintering. I thus hope to start again the laying of the queen a little. Questions: 1) I is not in the bee-keeping since a long time (it is only my third harvest), and I would like to thus know: - if I could have avoided the infestation by Varroa in one way or another, - if I reacted well after having discovered the infestation, - if my hives have chances to draw some. 2) (Do any of you know) of other bee-keepers who knew the same problems with Apivar? 3) I intended to say that Apivar functioned very well but only when the temperatures remain rather gentle. Is this true? (the back season of the last year was rather cold and wet, and this could explain that). Thank you Fred 5DB 12c Erquelinnes Hainaut Belgium Bonjour à tous Jusqu'en 1997, je traitais mes ruches avec des lanières d'Apistan, et j'en étais assez content (en fait, mes ruches étaient sans doutes infestées de Varroas, mais leur nombre était insuffisant pour que je remarque quoi que ce soit). En aout 1998 (l'année passée, donc), suite aux recommandations de la fédération apicole (belgique), j'ai abandonné Apistan pour utiliser Apivar. Au moment de traiter, pas de problèmes, les conditions d'utilisations étaient claires et assez semblables à celles auxquelles j'étais habitué. Printemps 1999, mes colonies étaient belles, en pleines forme et la récolte fut assez bonne. Eté 1999, au moment de récolter, je me suis apperçu qu'une de mes ruches qui était apparement en bonne santé 6 semaines avant se trouvait maintenant totalement vide (plus de nourriture, plus de couvain, pas de traces apparentes de maladies, et pas d'abeilles mortes sur le plancher, bref VIDE). Mes ruches ne se trouvant pas près de mon domicile, je n'ai pas souvent l'occasion de pouvoir observer le comportement de mes abeilles. A la fin du mois d'aout (le 27 pour etre précis), je me suis tout de même rendu compte qu'il y avait beaucoups d'abeilles mortes ou mourantes sur le sentier et que bon nombre d'entre-elles avaient les ailes abîmée, ce qui m'a fait, enfin, penser à Varroa. Renseignements pris auprès de mon fournisseur apicole habituel, celui-ci m'a dit que je n'étais pas le seul dans le cas et qu'il avait beaucoups de clients qui venaient lui rechercher de l'Apistan après avoir essayé Apivar l'année passée. J'ai donc mis les lanières Apistan et j'ai compté plus de 500 varroas morts après le premier jour d'utilisation, sur une surface de plancher de +/- 400 cm². Mes ruches ne me semblant pas très populeuses, j'ai aussi entrepris de leur fournir du sirop "léger" (2Kg de sucre pour 3 litres d'eau) et je compte bien continuer à raison de 300 ml par jour pendant une dizaine de jours. Et après seulement, je nourrirai au sirop "lourd" pour l'hivernage. J'espère ainsi relancer un peu la ponte de la reine. Questions: 1) Je ne suis pas dans l'apiculture depuis bien longtemps (c'est seulement ma troisième récolte), et je voudrais donc savoir: - si j'aurais pu éviter l'infestation par Varroa d'une manière ou d'une autre, - si j'ai bien réagi après avoir découvert l'infestation, - si mes ruches ont des chances de s'en tirer. 2) Y a t'il d'autre apiculteurs qui ont connu les mêmes problèmes avec Apivar? 3) J'ai entendu dire qu'Apivar fonctionnait très bien mais seulement lorsque les températures restent assez douces. Est-ce vrai? (l'arrière saison de l'année passée fut assez froide et humide, et ceci pourrait expliquer cela). Merci Fred 5DB 12c Erquelinnes Hainaut Belgique ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:36:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TOO much chemical talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John and Angie Partin wrote: > > After further research, it was Apistan. The very first strips they came out > with, when mites first got started and nobody knew what was killing their > bees, were awesome and lasted like 2 years. That didn't make beekeepers have > to buy new strips nearly as often as would be desired by the shareholders. > Then they changed the material that the strips are made of. The first ones > resembled the material used to make those white flea collars. Since I have never seen Apistan as white flea collar type strips, I cannot comment on that, but I can guess that it may have been MitACure- which comes in a white flea collar-, not Apistan. MitACure was taken off the market by the manufacturer. Long story on that. It was more potent than Apistan but is amatraz, not fluvalinate. And it was to treat tracheal mites. It is a potent mite killer. Apistan came in after that through another company. To my knowledge it has never been white. But, if Apistan was white at one time, then someone else can pick this thread up. Otherwise, it will die naturally and be mourned by none- except those wishing to increase the entrophy of the universe. Which is one of my continuing contributions to science. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 23:34:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Too much chemical talk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter Patton writes > Man oh Man do I feel blessed to do beekeeping in Hawaii where we have >no pest or disease of honey bees that require the use of all of the >different concoctions and variations of chemicals and medications. In my humble opinion Walter should enjoy his blessings, but remain vigilant, and prepare for the day when someone breaks the rules and moves an infected beehive to Hawaii, either because he/she just wants to move a favourite hive or worse still wishes to destroy the disease free status of Hawaii (horrible!). Moving infected hives is what what happened to the Emerald Isle, admittedly much nearer the source of infection than Hawaii is. I sincerely hope that the evil day for Hawaii is a long way off. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 19:02:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Apimondia faces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Matt Higdon asks if plans have been made for a BEE-L get together at Apimondia. So far, no definitive plans have been made other than many have expressed the desire to do so. I know of at least 20 members of BEE-L and/or sci.agriculture.bees who will be attending. It is always a thrill to meet the folks from the list and I'm looking forward to it! I have heard rumors that a room has been offered for a get together, but I have no idea of the details. My personal druthers would be for something early in the week so folks can meet early on and converse as time allows as the week progresses. If I do not hear more definitive plans by Monday, then lets meet at the pub on Monday night, I'll buy first round! ;-) I too am starting a liesurely sojourn via train, plane and automobile on Tuesday after Labor Day and will also will "be weaned from Bill Gates' influence" (I like that!). So the best I can do right now is to say watch the bulletin board at Apimondia unless better plans are posted twixt now and Monday afternoon. Aaron Morris - thinking Pacific Northwest! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:39:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Measuring Nutritional Status The new web interface to BEE-L makes amazing things possible. I was wanting to post about the fact that we are realizing a dream from some time back and are feeding pollen patties right now. We made some extra in the spring when we were set up to do so and had time and are able to now put them on when we visit to remove the last supers. I could have started a new thread, but instead, I went to http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html and searched for 'supplement'. That brought up 50 articles including the current subject and I was able to pick up where I left off in 1997. I am writing this using the web posting interface. Only problem: how do I include a huge long obnoxious signature with ASCII graphics? (Note: see PS at end for another problem) Moreover, since I have joined the IBRA, I think I will now request a literature search on the subject of this thread. I can now get the reprints by email, including the one Trevor mentioned, the one that I found so hard to lay my hands on, so maybe we will have more to chew on soon. FWIW, The online bee discussion searches can be reached from the top, of my home page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ , as can the IBRA search form. Here's the post: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:44:47 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: >> >When can I quit giving them patties? Do I just put them on til the bees >> >refuse to eat them (seems wasteful)? Or will they eat it from time to >> >time right thru the spring if I leave it on? We find that good colonies will eat a pound in a week anytime of year if they have a little pollen and lots of sugar. Without pollen in the mix, consumption is about 33% reduced. >It seems that the weak hives are much less inclined to eat it. I noticed >many hives this year with eggs but no brood right up to two weeks ago. >Pollen shortage? They did not seem to be eating the supplement either. We have found the patties a great non-intrusive way to spot poor hives and the the strong hives that have recently gone queenless. They don't eat patties nearly as well. >> Once natural pollen is available none of the hives will touch the patties, even if there is poor flying weather. Subsequent experience has proven that the patty formula determines consumption rate. Patties without much pollen and/or sugar are not as enthusiastically eaten -- or even refused -- when there is any alternative. >What about the fall? We have *some* pollen into October, even after >frosts. I had hoped to try supplement in September. This was my dream, but we never had time to do it. Now we are feeding and the bees make a 1 pound patty disappear in less than a week. Bad hives stick out like a sore thumb because the patties are not eaten. That is our experience after limited trials, anyways. More later. We hope to get an idea whether the supplementation improves wintering, but if we have enough patties, we will likely feed all 3,000 hives, so there goes the controlled experiment. Knowing us, we are bound to miss some hives, and that way maybe we will have controls and we can compare. Or maybe will just give half the outfit 2 patties. Any one else trying this? allen PS: Another problem: the first time I tried to use this web interface for posting, I had to get a LISTSERV password to be able to post after writing my epistle. After I did that, the post did not seem to get sent. Fortunately I had copied my work to the clipboard (Ctrl+a, then Ctrl+c) as a precaution and pasted it (Ctrl+v) into my word processor. Therefore I did not had re-type the whole thing again for this attmept. My advice: if you are going to use the web interface to post, get your password before going through all the work. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:20:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Varroa, minimal treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As far a I can see the main problem with treating varroa is the mites within the brood cells. One suggestion I heard recently was to immerse the infested frames in hot water for a length of time hopefully killing all the mites as well as the brood. (If you have plenty of time you could put the frames in the freezer overnight) The method would be: Shake all the bees from brood chamber onto new brood chamber (no brood and no varroa mites) I think this would be best done in the early spring when there is very little brood and few bees. Insert apistan/bavarol strips into the chamber to kill mites on the bees. It might be possible to increase the number of strips per hive. These strips need only be left in the chamber for a short length of time since they only require to kill the mites on the bees (possibly only a day!) The frames from the old brood chamber are then immersed in hot water to kill the mites in the cells and the procedure repeated using the now sterile frames in the next hive. I would think that the apistan strips could be re-used for numerous hives using this method. If you think smoke or acid would get rid of the mites on the bees then you could use this rather then apistan. The advantage of this method is that the hive is only exposed to chemicals for a short space of time which would minimise the fears associated with using these chemicals. What does the group think? Harry, Scottish Bee Issues:- http://www.luichartwoollens.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:17:36 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Apimondia meeting place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron, Allen, and all: I have contacted a Congress committee person about a meeting place for BEE-Lers to meet and hang out. They will get back to me with meeting room possibilities. I have asked for a location that will hold 20-30 persons at 6:30 am on Monday or Tuesday. We may be able to meet in the press room at that hour. The press room will be busy at other times and won't be available for drop-in visiting. There are several lounge areas in the center where we can put up a sign perhaps as a gathering place during the congress. Please look for a BEE-L announcement on the message board in the registration/lobby area when you arrive at the congress. It will tell you where our meeting room/area is going to be. I look forward to meeting with all of you. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 07:37:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Forced feral bee absconding? In-Reply-To: <199909032352.TAA07897@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by pleroy@WCTEL.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > > ----------------- Original message (ID=A011F402) (51 lines) > Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 19:51:34 -0400 > From: Paul S LeRoy > Subject: Re: Forced feral bee absconding? > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > > > Aaron, maybe you shouldnt be so quick to jump to a conclusion on this > subject. If the homeowner saw a lot of bees flying around it dont seem > that they were so dead. Down here in South Carolina dead bees tend not to fly > much. They could have swarmed and the nonbeekeeper homeowner may not have > noticed. Lets hear from someone else who might have some experience or > expertise with the effect of diesel exhaust which is quite different from gas > exhaust. If it did happen to work wouldnt it be a breakthrough in removing > feral hives in unwanted locations without having to watch the local pest > control man NUC them? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:28:58 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Varroa, minimal treatment In-Reply-To: <199909042002.QAA27763@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 4 Sep 99, at 20:20, Harry Goudie wrote: > As far a I can see the main problem with treating varroa is the mites > within the brood cells. One suggestion I heard recently was to immerse > the infested frames in hot water for a length of time hopefully killing > all the mites as well as the brood. (If you have plenty of time you could > put the frames in the freezer overnight) The method would be: Shake all > the bees from brood chamber onto new brood chamber (no brood and no I couldn't make up my mind if this was tongue in cheek or not. While freezing would kill the mites, hot water would created a terrible problem with melting wax? I think there are better ways of getting mites under control. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:57:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Organization: Apimo Biavl Subject: Apimondia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One week left and Apimondia is running! I will go there with 100 CD's in my pocet, but there is only 250MB on those for now! I wonder if you will help me filling them up! If you think that your homepage will be of interest, then send me in total zipped up or give me your url! Do you have mead recipies or food recipies or for that matter other of beekeeping and products of beekeeping related stuff that you want to share with others, then I will burn it on the cd's. Have you software you want promoted, then send it to me be it concurrent to my software or not! Have you a good solution in spreadsheet then this could be an Idea to. All I get will be burned on the CD unmodified! The only limit I have is, that it must not be copyrighted material unles you have the permission from author. I have 250mb free for you on the CD! On Apimondia I will give the CD away just for the production price aproximatly 20 US$ a newsletter included. I hope to see a lot of you bee-l people there! best regards Jorn Johanesson EDBi = multilingual Beekeeping software since 1987 http://apimo.dk (USA) http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo (Denmark) apimo@post4.tele.dk Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:04:05 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Katie Stepp Subject: Re: Screen Bottom Boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Linda Monteith asked: Is there a screened bottom board being made? Is it possible (give enough support to the hive)? I searched the archives and came up with some answers from other BEE-Lers >From Lloyd Spear: 16 JULY 1999 In the US an inexpensive mesh that is constructed to fit on top of a normal bottom board is being sold by Betterbee (800-632-3379) and Brushy Mountain (800-233-7929). I understand that this somehow redirects the bees into the hive, without them having access to the bottom board. However, unless the beekeeper has sticky paper (sprayed with food oil (Pam) or something similar) to trap the mites, they are likely to find a way to catch a ride on incoming bees. >From Aaron Morris on Ed Lord's experience with open bottom boards: 12 JAN 1999 Ed uses 1/8 inch hardware cloth to build double screen bottom boards for his hives which he keeps atop pallets. Initially he built these boards to improve ventillation for his bees when he was moving them to Maine for blueberry pollination. So pleased was he with the results that he started using these open bottom boards year round. He feels that the improved ventillation helps his bees through the winter, as there is no condensation and subsequent moist/wet bottom boards. Remember that his open bottoms sit on top of pallets so even though the bottom board is hardware cloth, there is still some wood to provide a modicum of winter protection. Ed attributes the loss of only one hive to his screened bottoms and that was due to a wind tunnel effect that resulted from a combination of unfortunate placement and an open upper entrance. Upon inspection he discovered that the hive was full of snow. My own answer comes from a Swiss beekeeper I know who uses open varroa floors himself. As this is sort of a new thing in the States I was curious about it. He said the open bottoms have not had any ill effect for overwintering. He lives near Geneva, so winters are pretty harsh. His hives are also in a bee house year round, so they are a little more protected than if they were standing outside. Hope that helps. Katie Stepp Student of apiculture ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 18:33:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Splits, supersedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may have missed part of a post but I cannot remember David defining quite what he means by his original observation of "regressive queens". I have been looking in my dictionary and most of the possible meanings of regressive are on the lines of going back to what there was before. I understand that David has been producing queens he has been quite pleased with for a very long time. Following my (English English) dictionary the queens from splits should be ones he is quite pleased with, yet he seems not to be. Perhaps all this angst is the product of a semantic misunderstanding. If David could please explain exactly what he means by "regressive queens" and how he recognises them all may become clear. I did make a small contribution to this discussion some time ago but retired, mystified. Chris Slade - thinking I should pour oil on troubled waters (or was it dying embers, I can never get it right) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Varroa, minimal treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry Goudie wrote: > One suggestion I heard recently was to immerse the > infested frames in hot water for a length of time hopefully killing all the > mites as well as the brood. (If you have plenty of time you could put the > frames in the freezer overnight) The method would be: > Shake all the bees from brood chamber onto new brood chamber (no brood and > no varroa mites) I think this would be best done in the early spring when > there is very little brood and few bees. Insert apistan/bavarol strips into > the chamber to kill mites on the bees. It might be possible to increase the > number of strips per hive. These strips need only be left in the chamber > for a short length of time since they only require to kill the mites on the > bees (possibly only a day!) The frames from the old brood chamber are then > immersed in hot water to kill the mites in the cells and the procedure > repeated using the now sterile frames in the next hive. I would think that > the apistan strips could be re-used for numerous hives using this method. > If you think smoke or acid would get rid of the mites on the bees then you > could use this rather then apistan. The advantage of this method is that > the hive is only exposed to chemicals for a short space of time which would > minimise the fears associated with using these chemicals. In my opinion, there are a number of serious objections to this approach, but probably the first on the list is that (in the USA at least) this runs entirely contrary to the label directions for Apistan, thereby making it illegal and running the risk of actually provoking mite resistance to fluvalinate. Secondly, it is very stressful for the colony to be deprived of brood (except in midwinter where it would be very stressful to work the colonies at all). In spring, the colonies should be striving to build up populations for the coming season and in fall the brood will be necessary for winter populations of young bees. Thirdly, the method seems extremely labor intensive in contrast to the standard procedure of installing the strips and then merely removing them 45 days later. This method seems similar to the drone trapping procedure but with the added expense of using chemical strips as well and destroying all the brood, not only drones. The purported advantage of having the strips in the hives for only a short time is hard to see, because there shouldn't be any supers on the hives anyway when the strips are in use. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:42:43 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad Barry Birkey said: > Making a statement like, "Treating varroa mites with Fluvalinate strips > showed actual varroa population increase of 64 percent." deserves a big DUH, > but only after we find out the fact(?) that the bees used in the testing > were resistant to the fluvalinate. Is this a case of pulling selected > information from a study to bolster a products salability? [jhf>] It was pure huckstering and scare tactics. It was a very irresponsible example of what greed can do to some people. (Has anyone ever seen such large print used to try to sell ANY beekeeping product before?) I, for one, have no intention of doing any future business with anyone who goes out of their way to attempt to both mislead and scare beekeepers into buying something of unproven value combined with extreme and known hazards. Part of the "value added" I expect from a vendor is "advise and counsel" in the form of product research and technical knowledge. Dadant, Brushy Mtn, and other vendors offer me their candid opinions and the benefit of their wisdom in every conversation. For example, a recent flyer (Aug/Sept) from Brushy Mtn stated (I quote below, word for word): Check Mite Plus This chemical has been approved in approximately 20 states at this time under and EPA section 18. It is for the Hive Beetle and in certain states, where the use of unapproved chemicals have resulted in the immunity of Varroa Mites to the fluvalinate in Apistan Strips, it is approved for use for Varroa. DO NOT use this chemical unless you have a infestation of the beetle in your brood chamber. Read and follow label instruction to the letter. Very Nasty Pesticide, it is toxic to birds, fish, humans and aquatic animals. OK, no points for grammar, but full marks for substance. THIS is what I would expect all vendors to stress to beekeepers. The same page also contains an "Update On Formic Acid" and a "Beetle Update", both trying to educate, not scare, and both suggesting "normal" treatment practices are the appropriate course of action. Yes, Brushy Mtn can sell you Check-Mite, but I'll bet you'd get an argument from them if you were in a state with no known beetle infestation. At the Virginia State beekeepers' conference this summer, the State Apiarist was questioned closely by all and sundry in a rapid-fire Q&A session about all of the "newly approved" chemicals, and the whole "Section 18" deal. (It turns out that most states simply photocopied Florida's application, and gained approval "just in case".) There was a considerable divergence in the initial views presented by the attendees, but the State Apiarist made a very good point: Don't try to solve a problem that you don't have! If you don't have beetles (we don't in VA), and your mites are not resistant (they aren't in VA), stick with the safest chemical, since harsh treatments tend to "stress" the bees, and hence, reduce bee lifespans. He also asked anyone who thought that they had either hive beetles or "resistant" mites to call his office so that he could send one of his men out to confirm or deny before anyone started tossing ecological hand grenades at their beehives. Barry Birkey further said: > One always must treat statements like this with a grain of salt. [jhf>] I'll go further. A 100-lb BAG of salt. "Technical Update", indeed. I think I'll just mail my copy of the flyer to the EPA and see what they have to say about it to Mann Lake. If I were the EPA, people who write ad copy like that are the last people I would want licensed to distribute any controlled substance. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:56:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Organization: Apimo Biavl Subject: Sv: Re: Varroa, minimal treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: David Eyre Til: Sendt: 6. september 1999 03:28 Emne: Re: Varroa, minimal treatment > On 4 Sep 99, at 20:20, Harry Goudie wrote: > > the infested frames in hot water for a length of time hopefully killing > > all the mites as well as the brood. > > While freezing would kill the mites, hot water would created a > terrible problem with melting wax? Depends on the temperature I think! For many years the Russian beekeepers have used warming of the broad and bees for Varroa control. Honey is melting at about 40 degress Celsius while wax is melting at about 70 degrees Celsisus! I think but don'nt know that about 38-39 degress Celcius will do it! best regards Jorn Johanesson EDBi = multilingual Beekeeping software since 1987 http://apimo.dk (USA) http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo (Denmark) apimo@post4.tele.dk Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:50:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Screen Bottom Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katie Stepp said: Consider this: If the bottom of the hive is basically an open screen mesh, wouldn't that leave hives especially vulnerable to another "new thing" in America: small hive beetles, which live part of their life cycle in the dirt around the hives? Seems like such a open mesh would create especially easy access. John ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Tidewater Beekeepers Web Page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Tidewater Beekeeper's Association, located in Southeastern Virginia, USA now has a web page. The purpose is to increase the public presence of the association and help promote our activities. Secondarily the purpose is to give a link to important information and material of local interest to beekeepers here. Please puruse ( http://groups.hamptonroads.com/beekeepers ) the site and pass your thoughts to me via this email address or the one linked at the bottom of the first page. Thank You, Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:01:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Todd Webb Subject: Re: Screen Bottom Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-06 11:51:59 EDT, you write: << Consider this: If the bottom of the hive is basically an open screen mesh, wouldn't that leave hives especially vulnerable to another "new thing" in America: small hive beetles, which live part of their life cycle in the dirt around the hives? Seems like such a open mesh would create especially easy access. John >> Here in Georgia, where Small Hive Beetles are present, I am pondering this quesiton too. It seems to me that mesh bottom boards have just about everything to recommend them except where small hive beetles are present. Does anyone know how far the Small Hive Beetle larvae will move once they drop out a hive? Perhaps some sort of ground cover under and around the hives would make it possible to use mesh screened bottom boards despite the Small Hive Beetle. Any thoughts or research on this? Todd Webb Palmetto, GA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:11:19 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Varroa, minimal treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry Goudie suggests shaking bees from a hive in the spring into another hive and then treating just the bees with Apistan/Bavarol. If a beekeeper has properly treated Varroa in the fall I see no reason to treat the colony in the spring unless, A) you live in the southern US where brood rearing (and Varroa rearing) occurs most of the winter, or B) the Varroa in your colonies have built up a tolerance for the chemical. However, his idea has some merit for treating swarms when they are first introduced to a hive, or if a beekeeper wants to make splits with bees only. This might be desirable if you have a strong hive on the verge of swarming in the spring. Then Harry says: "It might be possible to increase the number of strips per hive." Ted Fisher is right when he says this use would be contrary to the label. EPA regulations do not allow the use of a higher dosage of any chemical than that specified on the label. You may however use less than the recommended dosage (less than one strip per five combs of bees) on the label, but I do not recommend this action because of the potential for hastening resistance on the part of Varroa. Always use one strip per five deep Langstroth combs covered with bees, or equivalent in other equipment sizes. If you want to treat a swarm, neuc without brood, or even a colony with a high number of Varroa (>100 per colony) in March, you must treat them using one Apistan strip for each five combs covered with bees, but you can treat them for less than the label time period (42-56 days). (Our pesticide regulators have confirmed that this use is in compliance with the label.) Leave the strips in the colonies for 10 days, then remove the strips and put your honey supers on if the colonies need them. We usually put our first supers on by March 15 if the colonies wintered as well as they should. I have treated colonies with high numbers of Varroa using sticky boards with screens in the fall (Sept.) for two days, then replaced the sticky boards three times on two day intervals. My experience indicates that most of the mites on bees drop within the first five to ten days. (Of, course there are still many mites in the brood.) The label does allow the reuse of strips that have been used for survey purposes. I asked and received this information from the manufacturer. They said that the strips could be reused but they wouldn't use them for more than a total of 20 days because they didn't know what percent of the chemical the bees removed per day over time, or if the removal occurred more heavily at the beginning of the treatment period. The company expressed concern about the variability in colony size and ambient temperature. So Harry's thought that "the strips could be re-used for numerous hives using this method" would be contrary to the label. Some colonies "track" or put wax or propolis on the strips. This covers up the chemical reducing the amount of available chemical. I certainly wouldn't reuse such strips. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:36:19 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: CheckMite - Mann Lake ad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer says "I'll bet you'd get an argument from them (Brushy Mtn) if you were in a state with no known beetle infestation." Actually James, EPA has issued Section 18s for Check-Mite to some states only for use on Varroa because there was some evidence of the mites being tolerant to fluvalinate. In other states having the Small Hive Beetle, EPA's Section 18 will specify use for Varroa and the SHB. Brushy Mountain can get a list of the states having a label approved for Varroa, the SHB, or both, from Bayer or EPA. Then they can sell CheckMite to those states with labels. The Virginia State Apiarist was correct in saying that other states used Florida's application for a Section 18. What states actually did was to write up justification for the granting of a S-18 in their state including cost impact data and other information required by EPA. Then the state referenced the research data provided by Florida in their S-18 request. This was allowed by EPA to reduce the amount of paperwork in each state that would be required if each state had to acquire all the same information that was required and that appeared in the Florida request. It just made good sense to EPA. But each state didn't "gain approval 'just in case'." Each state had to provide data that there were either reported cases of tolerance (as in WA), or that it was reliably reported in states from which they receive migratory colonies. WA receives approximately 50,000 hives from CA, ID, OR, SD and ND. I hope this will clear up some inaccuracies. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:44:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Tidewater Beekeepers Web Page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Tidewater Beekeeper's Association, located in Southeastern Virginia, USA now has a web page. The purpose is to increase the public presence of the association and help promote our activities. Secondarily the purpose is to give a link to important information and material of local interest to beekeepers here. Please puruse the site and pass your thoughts to me via this email address or the one linked at the bottom of the first page. http://groups.hamptonroads.com/beekeepers Thank You, Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:03:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) lindena from arc1a221.bf.sover.net [209.198.80.221] 209.198.80.221 Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:03:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: September 5, 1999: Linden Apiaries sets a NEW 24-hour hive weight gain record and flow record!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Beekeeper, I have additional data for the unsurpassed bamboo flow of 1999! The 24 hour record was again broken, as well as the flow record, which was 85 lbs. in 12 days from Robinia pseudoacacia, or black locust, at my neighbors, years ago. See virus-scanned attachment for the table of gains. Approximately 2900 lbs. were gained in 5 days if you multiply by 43 hives! This flood of nectar certainly will save on sugar costs! Note that 382 frames of sealed brood were removed from 41 2-queen colonies in 1999, or 9.32 frames brood per colony. The other 2 colonies were made up in July as a 4-queen hive, which was split into two 2-queen colonies a week ago. The drop off in production of some colonies was due to running out of room what with all the nectar. I made some manipulations in the scale hives that were getting crowded, but it may be too late, as good weather is not supposed to return until the 9th. I have been using a division board feeder to gather outside bees to dump in front of weaker colonies for equalizing. It is easy to fill this gallon-sized feeder from the front of one colony! No protection is needed, even during showers! 29 hives are in 4 deeps, and 2 in 5 deeps, which had considerable black Pierco frames to be drawn. 12 hives are in 3 deeps with 3 shallows for the lower colony, and 2-3 for the upper colony. These have mostly drawn comb. These are in the best yard, near 3 rivers which have bamboo on the banks. They are the Saxtons River, in VT, and the Cold River, and the Connecticut River, in NH. This flow was just what the bees needed to get ready for winter, after a dry spring and summer, and today the rains have begun! Today is Labor Day for the Bees and I! Hope all is well where you are, Charles F. Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Beekeeping Supplies Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-’89 1 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 USA/EUA 603-756-9056 Residence: Latitude: 43° 05’ North, Longitude: 72° 21’ 15" West, Elevation 1200’ Keeper of 43 two-queen colonies for honey, pollen, propolis, pollination, nuclei, beeswax, apitherapy, and education Learn, experiment, innovate, educate! Charles Frederic Andros July 13, 1999 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:01:30 -0400 Reply-To: glen@oldmoose.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen Glater Subject: wax moths flourishing in living hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a living (albeit weak, with apparently no queen) hive that is infested with waxmoth larvae and pupae at all developmental stages. I presume that there are eggs too, since there are varying instars of larvae. What can I do to kill of these moth beasts without killing the bees in the hive? I'm guessing that the hive is too weak to overwinter anyway, but I'd rather not hasten their demise. Can I put para-based moth things (the pink ones from supermarkets) into the hive to selectively kill the moths without killing the bees? Or is there another alternative? Thanks for the help. --glen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:00:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Screen Bottom Boards In-Reply-To: <199909061250.IAA02928@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > However, unless the >beekeeper has sticky paper (sprayed with food oil (Pam) or something >similar) to trap the mites, they are likely to find a way to catch a ride on >incoming bees. > At this summers EAS meeting (after this was posted) it was stated that the Varroa mite will only move a very short distance when it is questing for a new host. If it falls past the screen of a bottom board it will never make it out on its own. If I recall the maximum distance traveled will be 3/8 of an inch. This seems to be one of the best ways to get a mite. When they are looking for a new host (questing). For example grease patties work by confusing the tracheal mite when it is outside the bee questing for a new host. Mites will dry out very fast when not on a host so anything that will slow the transfer will take its toll on their populations. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:37:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Francis Subject: Bees Buzzing Bombs MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Interesting article on "Bees finding Land Mines" on the CNN Webpage. http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/02/t_t/bees.mines/index.html With good photo footage. John Leslie Francis Program Director, WEKU "Great Music and NPR News" E-mail: dmrfranc@acs.eku.edu/www.weku.org* Phone: 606.622.1657 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:00:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No one seems to either be using FGMO or wants to talk about it. I asked for input and got the one I posted about the failure of food grade mineral oil as a varroa controller under Dr. R's supervision.. I also posted on the sci.bkping newsgroup and got a few responses, most asking what it was all about. My reasoned guess is that it does not work and you would be foolish to use it unless as an adjunct in the control of tracheal mites, since it would work like crisco. It may kill some varroa since the mechanism is the same that kills mites on horses and other animals, but it certainly does not kill them in the ranges posted here by Dr. R many years ago. It is also interesting that some of his most vocal supporters left this list for the newsgroup, but I have not seen them on the newsgroup for a few years. So they are either off the web or out of beekeeping. As a strong proponet of back yard experiments, I hoped that FGMO was a safe varroacide. But as one who believes in the scientific method (not necessarily science or scientists, but the method) I wanted outside confirmation, not the word of the proponet. It appears that the outside tests are in and FGMO failed. Many object lessons here. One being the power of this medium to both instruct and to deceive. The information is free, so I guess we get what we pay for. Bill T Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:08:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "WM. ARNOLD JONES" Subject: hive b MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use a large black plastic sheet under my hives. I get it at the = co-op for very little it is 8 mil thick and black I cut 20 foot long = and 10 wide solid sheet. set the hives on top of it I like space so = I put about 5-6 hives on one then move a few 20 - 30 feet for the = next pod. =20 it works for the beetle ants hate it (a few will brave it but not = for long) small animals (mice) hate it and grass never needs = trimming. =20 it works for me. here in Tn.=20 wish everyone the best =20 arnold jones ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:22:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: FGMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been using it to keep inner covers and boxes from sticking together. I still use Apistan,so far no resistant mites unless the one colony tht failed with no apparent reason was them. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:34:44 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Seppo Korpela Organization: Agricultural Research Centre of Finland Subject: Re: FGMO In-Reply-To: <01JFP13C2A78DP74O9@mtt.fi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 09:00:40 -0400 From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO To: BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU Send reply to: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > No one seems to either be using FGMO or wants to talk about it. I > asked for input and got the one I posted about the failure of > food grade mineral oil as a varroa controller under Dr. R's > supervision.. I have not very actively read the postings on BEE-L lately, but if results are needed for FGMO tests outside Dr. R's apiary I can add results of my little experiment with only one colony. At that time, the treatment was instructed to do by dripping the FGMO on top bars of the frames. I made during the summer 1997 a total of 15 weekly treatments according to instructions, treating every top bar in the colony each time. The weekly mite downfall results on bottom inserts were 38,29,33,14,25,55,56,56,102,76,61,67,124,186 and 197. Then after this treatment program I made an oxalic acid sugar solution treatment by trickling the solution on top of the bees and top lists. If the FGMO treatments had worked there should have been only a few mites left, but this treatment gave 2534 mites in 5 days. If 1 mite/day is considered to correspond to 120 mites in colony the latest weekly downfall results indicated a mite count of a little over 3000. Obviously, a few, but only a few, of the weekly mite downfall was caused by the treatment, but the rest of the mites died naturally. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:25:19 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charlie Subject: I.H.E.O. webpage (new) In-Reply-To: <199909061233.IAA02374@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello folks, some of you might know about I.H.E.O. which stands for International Honey Exporters' Organization. I heard they just uploaded their webpage, the URL is: www.iheo.org Best regards, Charlie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:22:03 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hugo Aguirre Subject: FGMO helped my bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell, You said: I say: Yes, I am using it. I tried it 3 years ago, it worked so since then I keep using it; now I got the hives like I use to have before the varroasis came to south-america.- Then: I think like you do. I just look good results at my bee yard. Good results means: economy, effectiveness and harmlessness. Research your own method; you will not find two bee-yards with the same natural contions. Have you ever find to beekeepers thinking or doing the same beekeeping? Your end: My end: I am very thankful of this list, just for that. I learned a lot; no deceived, yet.- A hand-shake, Hugo Aguirre=======>hugoagui@sanguillermo.com.ar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -¦- Miel dura es miel pura -¦- -¦- El azúcar endulza; la miel endulza, nutre y da salud -¦- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: FGMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In reading over the Food Grade Mineral Oil (FGMO) archives, and now the screen bottom board treads I have a bit of a question that may apply to any treatment study of the Varroa mites. Since the sticky boards result in dropping mites not being able to make their way back to a host, could some of the positive results found in some studies be the result of the presense of the sticky boards, and have nothing to do with the treatment being studied? Add to the question the fact that some (if not all) smoker fuels cause some degree of mite drop. The colonies being used for a test may be coming under more frequent manipulations, which require smoke, to add and remove the sticky boards. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:03:38 -0500 Reply-To: dscribner@bigfoot.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David D. Scribner" Subject: Re: wax moths flourishing in living hive In-Reply-To: <199909070352.XAA21184@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen Glater wrote: >I have a living (albeit weak, with apparently no queen) hive that is >infested with waxmoth larvae and pupae at all developmental stages. >What can I do to kill of these moth beasts without killing the bees in >the hive? I'm guessing that the hive is too weak to overwinter anyway, >but I'd rather not hasten their demise. >Can I put para-based moth things (the pink ones from supermarkets) into >the hive to selectively kill the moths without killing the bees? Or is >there another alternative? This is a tough problem due to the time of year. Normally, there are a few alternatives you could try, but placing Para in an active hive isn't one of them. One alternative would be to take one of your strong hives, and combine the two. Put the weak hive's supers, once you have insured there is no queen, underneath the strong hive's supers (at the location of the strong hive), and separated with a sheet of newspaper with several slits cut in the paper to hasten joining of the two colonies. The strong hive's bees would probably be too busy battling the wax moth invaders and merge with the weak hive's bees with few problems. You could place an empty super in the old (weak) hive's location to catch the remainder of the field force, and transfer them back to that hive for a few days or so until they have re-oriented themselves as to the new location. Normally, when you combine hives using the "newspaper method", you place the weak hive's supers on top of the strong hive's supers, and separated by newspaper. However, as wax moths usually prefer to locate themselves (pupa and adults), and their eggs in "out-of-the-way" areas of a hive, placing the weak hive's supers on top may not be the best area for them to help the bees eradicate the wax moth population. The last thing you would want to do is give the wax moths an upper hand in your strong colony! A second alternative would be to divide up the frames of brood and food stores amongst the other strong colonies in your apiary. This would eliminate the weak hive (since there is no queen anyway), and spread out the infestation. This would make it easier for each hive to control the wax moth problem, but then again, you're spreading a problem that just might take hold in the new hive if it's not strong enough to control the problem. Without knowing the strength of your other hives, and the extent of the wax moth infestation, I would hesitate to recommend this option without further knowledge of the situation. A third alternative is to switch places between the weak hive and a much stronger one and re-queen the weak colony. The strong hive's field force would now return to the weak hive, and vice versa. This would not have as much of an impact as #1 above, but the added strength in numbers might be enough to bring the moths in control. The field force of the strong hive would be depleted. As such, instead of one strong hive and one weak going into winter, you may be left with two "so-so" colonies that may not make it through winter. A fourth alternative, if you have enough hives, is to shake a few frames of house bees from several hives into the weak hive, and requeen. Being house bees, fighting should be minimal. The field bees would return to their own hive, and the added house bees would help eradicate the wax moths. This would minimalize the reduction in strength among several colonies, versus the alternative above, but not knowing how many colonies you have... A fifth alternative would be to remove the frames of brood from the weak hive, brush off the bees, and add them to a stronger hive, taking frames of brood from the (or another) strong hive, doing the same thing, and adding them to the weak hive. This "switching" of brood frames, as most wax moth larva and eggs are usually located in that area of the hive, would place them in a hive better able to control the infestation. I would also suggest you change out and use "clean" supers, bottom boards and inner covers on the weak hive, and go through the remaining honey supers in search of larva, pupal cases, etc. for eradication. Requeen, and maybe even add some house bees as described above to give the population of this hive an immediate boost. The added strength to the weak hive would put an end to the moth problem, but is this something you would want to do right now at the mercy of your other stronger hive(s) (since you didn't indicate where you're located)? How soon does your cool fall weather hit? The reason I mention this is that in many areas, at this time of year, it can be crucial for the bees to strengthen their stores for winter. As the bees would be busy fighting moths and moth larva versus gathering the last bit of nectar and pollen, you would do well to feed them sugar syrup. The third, fourth and fifth alternatives both would require re-queening (if you're able to procure one). Also, as you transfer frames and supers, be sure and pick or brush off any moths or larva you see crawling around into a bucket (and pick/scrape off those pupal cases, too). That will be just that many less moths and larva the bees have to deal with, and you can feed them to the birds, go fishing, etc. Hope this helps, --David Scribner - Ballwin, MO, USA Niche on the Net! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Excessive Quotes Removed Subject: Re: Screen Bottom Boards From: "John and Angie Partin" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" References: <199909061724.NAA08142@listserv.albany.edu> Subject: Re: Re: Screen Bottom Boards Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:29:45 -0400 As a commercial beekeeper, all of my hives are on pallets and are moved by a Bobcat at least 4 times per year. Bobcat forks as well as the small hive beetle would be the biggest downfalls to screen bottoms. However, if the screen was an inch or so above the plywood floor of the pallet, it just might be very beneficial with no drawbacks. The only concern I have is the mites crawling back through the screen if some kind of sticky paper isn't used in conjunction which sounds like a lot of work until compared to rebuilding numbers and lost profit to those darn fleas! It would be far too much work to modify all of my pallets, but I intend to try it on the next ones I build. I'll report back when they have been tested. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:21:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Moderators Trying to Fix Bad Posts In-Reply-To: <199909071753.NAA06314@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As a commercial beekeeper, all of my hives are on pallets and are moved by a > Bobcat at least 4 times per year... Just for the record, this is not my post. The original was accompanied by huge gratuitous quotes which I attmpted to remove. Unfortunately, I removed the author's name, and wasted about 10 minutes in the process. In the future, I will not be trying to fix bad posts -- no matter how good the content and neither will most other moderators. It is simply too much trouble, and the attributions get confused. As another matter of interest, if you have tried to post and not seen your post on the list, here's something that happens: oftentimes people will think they are replying to the list when the reply function addresses the response only to the original author, so we never see it. If you like to post to BEE-L and want to make sure your post did not get lost, I recommend you set your options on BEE-L to NOACK and REPRO or check at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html after you post. Then, if you make a post to BEE-L and it does not appear on the list within a day at the very most, take a look in your 'sent' box and figure out why it did not meet the guidelines (which you should have kept or which you can find in a simple search at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html). Then please repair it and re-submit it for approval. If your post has disappeared and you can't figure out why, address a question to the list and a moderator will intercept it and let you know what happened. We appreciate all posts and don't want to lose any. Thanks allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:35:24 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: wax moths flourishing in living hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen Glater wrote: > I have a living (albeit weak, with apparently no queen) hive that is > infested with waxmoth larvae and pupae at all developmental stages. I > presume that there are eggs too, since there are varying instars of > larvae. > > What can I do to kill of these moth beasts without killing the bees in > the hive? I'm guessing that the hive is too weak to overwinter anyway, > but I'd rather not hasten their demise. It has often been stated here that moths are not the problem, but are a symptom of the problem. And what a symptom they are! You need to determine what happened to your colony that weakened it to the point where the moths moved in. Do you have AFB, varroa, a long-standing queenless condition that has deteriorated into laying workers - or what? From your description of the colony, I would not think it worth trying to save it. If it has AFB, just destroy it now by burning to get rid of the disease, moths and contaminated equipment. I guess I might give the same advice if varroa has gotten it so out of hand, although you might save some frames with honey by freezing them. I would still burn the badly moth-infested frames and scorch the chambers. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seppo Korpela wrote: (in part) > Obviously, a few, but only a few, of the weekly mite downfall > was caused by the treatment, but the rest of the mites died naturally. It is interesting that from the continuing knowledge base we are developing on varroa that most of Dr. R's good results were probably from mite drop, either as a result of the oil or just smoking the hives. For me, Seppo's experiment is the final nail in FGMO's coffin. FGMO does not work. The problem is, many will continue to use it. Recently somone asked me about it and I told them after the great varroa kill, when many in Maine lost their hives, I could have used anything on my hive, you pick the most outlandish, and I would have had exceptional results, because there was no varroa around. Without accurate measurements, as Seppo made, you are relying on experience without any knowledge of the actual conditions of the beeyard or your surroundings. Thank you Seppo, for doing it right. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:56:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Arab Est.Biological control" Subject: CLO2 & chalkbrood , AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear listter, a friend of mine use a material marketed under the name ( Scentrex with Aseptrol which contain clo2 as active ingredient ) against chalkbrood & AFB. he get promising result. does any body have experience with this product, what is action process . Khalil Arm Amman - Jordan abc@firstnet.com.jo