From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:27 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27385 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11156 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11156@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:21 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9909B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 129166 Lines: 2756 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:34:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Dubas Subject: what is in my beeswax foundation, melted ? Comments: To: Bee-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I changed my email address got one of these web emails. anyway I am quite angry and perplexed to what is in my moulten beeswax foundation. A few months back I ran into some old equipment which I bought it all, in that was some old foundation.. I figured I would melt it down and use it for candles possibly. I figured that foundation is 100% beeswax.. well what I found was that melted down there is this oil like subtance that floats on top almost looks like salad oil, and I cant filter it out. The reason Im mad is I just extracted over 36 supers the other day went to render my cappings.. the first bacth was great. When I went to render the next batch I saw that oily floating stuff on top. Here what I realized is that during my extracting one of my frames totally broke up so i just through the comb into my cappings. When I rendered that batch I had all this oil stuff in it. Are all these cappings wasted for making candles ? will they burn ok ? is it dangerous to burn ? what is that oil like substance in there ? thanks for any info, Andrew Dubas http://www.dubees.com ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits,supersedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 5 Sep 99, at 18:33, CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > Perhaps all this angst is the product of a semantic misunderstanding. > If David could please explain exactly what he means by "regressive > queens" and how he recognises them all may become clear. I did make a > small contribution to this discussion some time ago but retired, > mystified. > > Chris Slade - thinking I should pour oil on troubled waters (or was it > dying embers, I can never get it right) Hi Chris You can try to pour oil on troubled waters, but you'll need a tanker full, believe me. The angst as you call it goes back a lot of years and is a constant source of irritation to my wife, me and others on this list. As this message is unlikely to get past the moderators I am sending you a copy just to show, I'm not rude. Since our first introduction to Bee-L our posts have drawn flak from a number of members of this list. Why? Not sure! We've been accused of being here for business purposes on a number of occasions. Jean has been told she was 'in her cups' (drunk) for writing to one member. On other occasions discussing ventilation to sell more hives, raising the matter of emergency queens to sell more queens. Simple rudeness, and each point taken on it's own possibly hardly worth contemplating, but viewed as a whole just like a chinese water torture. Eventually one explodes and ergo my last epistle, not that it does any good as the perpetrator continues on his merry way year after year, oblivious to the animosity he is creating with his arrogance. Every time I complain, which is becoming less and less, I get loads of messages from others in the same situation, it makes one wonder just how long the list of those offended really is. Moderation hasn't helped, as it appears very one sided. The sequence of events seems to follow a pattern. First the original post which gets attacked by snide remarks etc. The second message, protesting, and trying to defend one's position is refused as being inflammatory. So it allows the snide remarks to go unchallenged, promoting the view that the conduct is acceptable. Mind you, one perpetrator is a moderator, talk about the fox in charge of the hen house! So as like many others on this list I'm beginning to admit defeat, keep my ideas to myself, only speak when spoken to, be a good boy and don't have an original thought. That is the antitheses of beekeeping, original thought. I remember a guy standing in front of one of our booths, looking at our new hive, puzzled. When asked he said "It can't work" when I enquired why, he said "Because nobody has thought of it before now", and he was deadly serious. I think that explains the thinking of many beekeepers, perhaps even our detractors. Sorry!! I get so steamed up at times. All I ask. Why can't we work together for the common good of beekeeping? There are some who can do things without being concerned for the almighty dollar. Back to "regressive queens". My dictionary defines regressive as backwards, returning to a previous position, not that it matters. That's my finding of emergency, self made queens, they go backwards. You'll recall, in my original post, I gave the results of 8 years of intense observation as a queen breeder, which was dismissed with a casual wave of a hand. I possibly de-queen and re-queen more hives in a year than any one around and both watch and note the results very carefully. We have a very intense assessment program of all queens, how raised and used in our yards, regardless of where they come from. For example we were requested to take a large swarm away earlier in the year and placed it in a special yard, already we like the strain and have had a lab test done on them. Findings were interesting, Nosema! Our bees are fed apple cider vinegar and are Nosema free!! Just in passing. So with our test program, note taking and intense observation I will know more about queens than a 'commercial' who opens his hives possibly 3-4 times a year. (Been there, done that). As part of our assessment and rearing methods we need to maintain as much queen diversity as possible, so rather than re-queen with the same strain (as others do) we need to replace mother with daughter. The easiest way, pinch out the old queen and allow the bees to make a replacement. Provided these bees are kept separate (ie a way away from the mating yard) they will have no influence on the mating of brooder stock. Here comes the results. Given enough repeats, ie. daughters replacing mothers via 'walk away' splits or emergency raising over a period of generations the quality falls apart. We kept results and notes over a 7 year period. After 3 generations it was possible to note the difference. Aggression, poor wax making, lack of forage ability, poor winterability all round lack of vigour. After 5 generations we had to destroy one hive as being impossible to work because of it's aggression. From these results we determined, aggression is not a gene characteristic. We found that a grafted queen replacing an angry queen producing angry bees would in 48 hours calm that hive down to be workable. If it was in the worker bees gene's it would take 8 weeks to calm down. As to other problems, grafting from an angry hive produces angry bees. Now there's a conundrum! Some one wanted to know if it depended on the strain of bees? No. We found that the worst 'regression' came from the Buckfast in our strains, but our 'Ontario' (closely Italians) came a very strong second. Whether that is because we have a mix in those bees is hard to determine and beyond our scope of expertise. There is lots more information available, but I was hoping for more discussion as there is still much to work on. I sincerely hope this answers your questions on both these subjects, and I apologise for my long winded post. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:57:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: Splits,supersedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David Eyre wrote: > .......................................Given enough repeats, ie. > daughters replacing mothers via 'walk away' splits or emergency > raising over a period of generations the quality falls apart. We kept > results and notes over a 7 year period. After 3 generations it was > possible to note the difference. Aggression, poor wax making, lack of > forage ability, poor winterability all round lack of vigour. > After 5 generations we had to destroy one hive as being impossible > to work because of it's aggression. From these results we determined, > aggression is not a gene characteristic. Given that what David reports is true and accurately observed by him, what is the explanation? The fundamental biological equation states:-- Phenotype = Genotype + Environment That is observed characteristics are a result of the genetic "blue print" in the genes plus the external conditions from conception (and maybe before ie. the parents state of health)to death. Clearly the early stages of life have a greater weight in this equality than the later stages of life. So why, if this is what David is actually saying, should an emergency queen and a grafted queen produced from eggs from the same mother be different ie. regressive/non-regressive (using the term as defined by David)?? One must assume that David (as he has several times recommended) removes capped queen cells on day 3 or 4 to ensure that the emergency queens are NOT produced from "mature" larvae (incidentally I hate the term grub). Input please! As to agression not being genetic I must admit to being puzzled by this. Most references state quite categorically that agression IS genetic and related to racial purity. Brown bee - italian bee crosses were called vicious by Ruttner for example. BIBBA is working towards "better bees", ie. non-regressive in Davids terminology, by trying to breed pure A.m.m (a form of positive regression). Comments? Cheers Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7004 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: BobCan@TDPI.Com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Subject: Chlorothalonil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering if anyone could tell me about any possible problems using Chlorothalonil (2,4,5,6,-tetrachloroisophthalonitrile? This substance is to be added to paint to help control mildew and mold. I was going to add it to paint some of my hives and stands as I get mildew mostly on them. I have searched the archieve with no results. Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:26:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Splits,supersedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the FGMO/varroa thread and this one has got me to thinking about our observations compared to what is actually happening. We take the local happenings in our apiary and make them universal without understanding why. I get completely opposite results than David. My bees are gentler, more productive and healthier than when I started and they are all so called emergency queens. So is my truth stronger than anothers? No. I have different local circumstances. I have come to the conclusion that emergency queens are inferior if raised at any time other than a major honey flow. Nothing new here. But I have arrived at another conclusion. Emergency queens are inferior if there are large numbers of feral colonies or lousy beekeepers in the area. The drone pool in your area has a everything do with the kind of queens you raise. If you get queens from away, and some are bad, they will add their drones to the pool and you will get many more lousy queens as will those in your area. Keep at it and you never excape the cycle. It is not regression but normal bee biology. You continue to introduce outside queens, you continue to intoduce good and bad behavior. But, by growing my own over the past eight years, especially through the great varroa killoff when most in my area lost their hives and never started again, we have a fairly uniform drone pool, since there are only a couple of beekeepers in the area. If they have good bees, I will have good bees. When bad bees start to populate the area, my bees will also pick up the characteristics. If they grow their own, we will have a fairly uniform set of bees until bees become varroa tolerant and feral bees migrate in or lots of outside queens are introduced. It is interesting that I was taught from the beginning not to raise my own queens by the emergency method because of regression. Maybe we have never been actually seeing regression but normal bee biology by the introduction of agression or poor honey gathering by the local feral, lousy beekeeper, or store bought queen drone pool. Bill Truesdell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:14:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Splits,supersedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >I have come to the conclusion that emergency queens are inferior >if raised at any time other than a major honey flow. Nothing new >here. But I have arrived at another conclusion. Emergency queens >are inferior if there are large numbers of feral colonies or >lousy beekeepers in the area. The drone pool in your area has a >everything do with the kind of queens you raise. If you get >queens from away, and some are bad, they will add their drones to >the pool and you will get many more lousy queens as will those in >your area. Keep at it and you never excape the cycle. It is not >regression but normal bee biology. You continue to introduce >outside queens, you continue to intoduce good and bad behavior. I think there are a couple of issues that need to be understood in the "emergency queen" debate. One of the topics covered at this summers EAS meeting was "Queen Cell Biology". On of the key points, that agrees with your point, is that very often the "emergency" cells were found to have exausted their royal jelly before hatching. This is in contrast to other cells where dry jelly was left at the bottom. This will mean underfeed larvae. The queens developed from these cells will never bee as good as one that had its fill, with some left over. But David keeps talking about this "regresive" behavior, which one would think would require a genetic answer. How can we explain this? My thoughts are that part of the "emergency" problem is that the bees are going to raise a queen that, like the old queen that leaves with the swarm, is just a stop gap. Here pheremone levels are going to bee low and she will be a target for supercedure. I think (based on some of my own observations of walk away splits) that within a few days of her starting to lay the bees may begin a supercedure cell. The "why" behind the regressive behavior claims would be inbreeding. Your source of drones for this two queen cycle is going to be very stable. Therefore the second queen of the "emergency" cycle is going to have a good chance of mating with (a) close relative(s) of her father. I am wondering if the fact that a queen breeder is claiming the problem to be much worse for him is due to what would otherwise be good breeding practices (that is good outside of the emergency cycle). The breeder selects his drone mothers and saturates his mating area with their sons. For queens being sold this is great. A high density of good quality fathers for the bees that will be born in the customers hives. But in the emergency cycle, a very high chance of inbreeding. For the non-breeder the drones are spread out in a more random fassion. Each hive adds a few to the pool. If you have enough hives in a given area the spread should be close to random. The chances of inbreeding are reduced. If you are moving hives a lot then you improve this even more. Just my thoughts. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:25:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" Subject: Bananna-peel formulation for wax-moth trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Morning ! Will someone please post me the proportionate formula for subject bait ? Intend to try same in my wet super storage shed in addition to para in stacks. Thank you very much. Zodiac Farms - cchaseiii@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:55:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Splits,supersedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >From Dave, >From these results we determined, aggression is not a gene characteristic. Anthony N Morgan wrote: > > > The fundamental biological equation states:-- > Phenotype = Genotype + Environment > That is observed characteristics are a result of the genetic "blue > print" in > the genes plus the external conditions from conception (and maybe before > ie. the parents state of health)to death. Clearly the early stages of > life > have a greater weight in this equality than the later stages of life. > > So why, if this is what David is actually saying, should an emergency > queen and > As to agression not being genetic I must admit to being puzzled by this. > Most references > state quite categorically that agression IS genetic and related to > racial purity. >From What I have studied the experiments lead us to believe Aggression is Genetic. I have not seen a study that shows it is not also an environmental trait. Personal observations: 1) When bears attack a hive and the do not have a floor, roof and 4 walls they are aggressive. Give them smoke and replace the abode, they vary quickly become gentle. Apparently environmental influence on observed aggression level. 2) Hot, dry drought conditions with earth of nectar/pollen, aggressive bees. The next week after the rains and nectar is present, gentle bees. etc. Apparently environmental influence on observed aggression level. Ok, we get the hint. But, you say, this is not the true "genetic influence", but a stimulated response. Exactly. Female bees produce alarm pheromone, and we do not know of all the various pheromones in use. Dr. Fell and his assistants at VA Tech are doing work on Queen pheromone in excretia. Perhaps there is a pheromone that is released by some queens when glands are uder/overdeveloped in different amounts than "normal" that cause the aggressive behavior. the response by the worker bees is still genetically passed on. Perhaps the t triggering of the alarm response can also be passed in several different ways by the queen. Perhaps not as coherent as it could be, I am at work and do not have time to properly edit. You get the idea. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:36:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: what is in my beeswax foundation, melted ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Dubas wrote: > I figured that foundation is 100% beeswax.. well what I > found was that melted down there is this oil like subtance that floats on > top almost looks like salad oil, and I cant filter it out. > Andrew, Sit back, relax, it's pretty normal. Let the wax solidify, pour off the liquid, pierce it to get to the pockets of fluid, and wash it out with warm water, setit out to dry, repeat asnecessary. The oily substance you speak of is small amounts of honey, water, etc. Don't sweat it, it will take a couple of melting to get it clean but in the end it makes wonderful candles. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:26:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Semantics and Discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally think the moderators do a great job under trying conditions. Two or three times I have questioned a moderators decision or process, and without exception have found that proper procedures were followed. I would not want to go back to a list that was not moderated. I have been following this discussion with more than a little interest. In my opinion, most of the angst could be avoided by showing some humility in the comments. After all, when considered in total, beekeeping is an art rather than a science. This is the reason that so many seemingly different practices can be totally successful. I think it is the blanket statements and sweeping generalities that cause the most irritation. For example, I once said (approximately) "In this climate, Carnolians are best because they shut down brood production in early winter and do not resume until early spring.' 'Italians, on the other hand, continue to raise brood until well into the winter, shut down for only a few weeks, and start brood production again in mid-winter." This was part of a comment on over-wintering. My statement comparing Carnolians and Italians was a generalization, and was only restating observations made by Brother Adam, Cobey, Morse, and many others. However, David Eyre took me to task for the generalization and, in a message to the entire list, stated that "his" Italians shut down brood production early and resumed only in early spring. He was correct in his criticism and since I have tried to use appropriate qualifiers. That said, statements such as "aggression is not a gene characteristic" and "Given enough repeats, ie. daughters replacing mothers via 'walk away' splits or emergency raising over a period of generations the quality falls apart" and even (approximately) "emergency queens are trash", are certain to generate controversy. Especially when the person making the statements is so quick to criticize others. The problem is...it is been very well documented that aggression is an inherited characteristic. It can easily be bred into (and out of) bees. However, to the best of my knowledge no one ever said that aggression is solely due to inheritance. I don't begin to question that at times mere replacement of a queen will calm bees. However, that does not mean that aggression is not also inherited! We also "know" that many, many commercial beekeepers re-queen solely by supercedure or by making "walk away" splits, and that they are still very successful after 20 or more generations. Sure, the walk-away splits are done during a strong flow and with high nurse bee populations; knowing that these are required is part of being a commercial beekeeper. These same beekeepers do not make splits from aggressive hives, those with poor production, chalkbrood, etc. Sure, there are instances where producing ones own queens leads to undesirable characteristics, but not always, as was implied. When one writes that emergency queens are junk and qualifies the statement by pointing out that the writer is a queen breeder, it is not unreasonable to wonder if the statement was self-serving! How different the reaction might have been is the comment was "at times, an emergency queen might be produced during cold, rainy weather; during a dearth; or otherwise under less than optimum conditions.' 'Such queens are likely to be inferior to those purchased from a reliable queen breeder or produced during a strong flow." Personally, when I write to this list I feel a real obligation to not mislead anyone and feel honored that I might be able to help. I also learn a great deal. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:16:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Dubas Subject: Plastic Hives in ABJ Comments: To: Bee-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw in September issue of American Bee Journal is an add " Plastic Hives & Frames, A company from London any one buy from them ? says 41 dollars for 2 deep boxes with frames, floor and roof... Thoughts on full plastic hives... the price is certainly right but what about warping ? Andrew Dubas www.dubees.com ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:09:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Plastic hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Dubas questions the durability of plastic hives. Plastic hives are used extensively in Western Europe, generally without difficulty. However, their summers are not nearly as hot, nor their winters as cold, as in the northern part of the US. In addition, in Europe wood is expensive and here it is inexpensive (by comparison). During the oil crisis of 74-75 (?) Kelley developed molds and made hives as well as supers. They were expensive, not well accepted by beekeepers, and some said they warped. They no longer make them, but still make plastic outer covers and bottom boards. I am certain Kelley would share their experiences with you (502-242-2012). Technically, there is no reason that plastic hives cannot be made that would be superior in performance to wood. Moreover, if they were made in the millions they would be inexpensive; but perhaps not less expensive then wood. Knowing beekeepers as I do, I do not expect to see plastic hives unless the price of wood more than doubles. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:36:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Plastic hives In-Reply-To: <199909081713.NAA00604@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:09 PM 9/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >Andrew Dubas questions the durability of plastic hives. I have had the chance to see some long term plastic hives on the West Coast of the U.S. Four problems: 1. Under conditions of high humidity, water ran down the inside of the hives (wood breathes) 2. If you want to paint them another color, the paint wouldn't hold. 3. The ones that I saw were heavy compared to wood. 4. Difficult to repair Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:45:14 -0500 Reply-To: cmichel@semo.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chris Michel Organization: Snap Shot Subject: Re: Plastic Hives in ABJ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I saw in September issue of American Bee Journal is an add " Plastic Hives & > Frames, A company from London any one buy from them ? says 41 dollars for 2 > deep boxes with frames, floor and roof... > With regard to the price, I'm not sure how "right" it is. I faxed Nepal as well as the number in England. It seems that they are not ready to sell to the United States. I assume that the advertisement is to create a potential market, not a real market. I would be curious to hear if anyone had a favorable response from this company. Chris Michel Michel Family Apiaries Poplar Bluff, MO ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:19:32 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Organization: Apimo Biavl Subject: Sv: Re: Plastic hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: Jerry J Bromenshenk Til: Sendt: 8. september 1999 20:36 Emne: Re: Plastic hives > 1. Under conditions of high humidity, water ran down the inside of the > hives (wood breathes) I prefer to carry honey not water :-) (Wood is getting wet) if you don't paint it! If you have a god ventilation the water is no problems in plastic hives. > 2. If you want to paint them another color, the paint wouldn't hold. I have been using platic hives now for twenty years (Langstroth)! they are three centimers in thicknes (Hard Styropor) and there is no need for extra isolation. I have painted mine one time, the time I got them. They were white and I turned it into green. The paint was plastic based house painting. The paint is still on them. > 3. The ones that I saw were heavy compared to wood. One langstroth with ten frames and fundation has a weight of 4.5 kg with three supers but no honey in I can move a hive alone! and I am 56 years old and not a bodybuilder type :-) > 4. Difficult to repair Glue it together again. I use expanding glue for wood! By the way I have only had two boxes broken in all those years. It came from dropping supers containing 30kg honey out of my hands. Well they have been taken into use again after gluing them together and they are still working after five years. best regards Jorn Johanesson EDBi = multilingual Beekeeping software since 1987 http://apimo.dk (USA) http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo (Denmark) apimo@post4.tele.dk Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:28:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) sover.net from arc1a88.bf.sover.net [209.198.80.88] 209.198.80.88 Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:26:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jeffrey R. Hills" Subject: Aggressive beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noticed more aggressive beekeepers on the list of late and wonder if this is a regressive or nonregressive characteristic. Jeff Hills ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:33:16 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: what is in my beeswax foundation, melted ? In-Reply-To: <199909081405.KAA23658@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 8 Sep 99, at 9:36, Thom Bradley wrote: > > I figured that foundation is 100% beeswax.. well what I > > found was that melted down there is this oil like subtance that floats > > on top almost looks like salad oil, and I cant filter it out. > > Sit back, relax, it's pretty normal. > Let the wax solidify, pour off the liquid, pierce it to get to the > pockets > of fluid, and wash it out with warm water, setit out to dry, repeat > asnecessary. The oily substance you speak of is small amounts of honey, > water, etc. Don't sweat it, it will take a couple of melting to get it > clean but in the end it makes wonderful candles. When I first read the second post, I thought yea, but then my mind went back to the original post. Andrew said. "Foundation" not comb. Surely there is no honey in foundation? My thoughts. Old Chinese foundation. There were reports of adulterated foundation being imported. Is it possible that this is some of it? ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:33:18 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits,supersedure queens In-Reply-To: <199909081359.JAA23474@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 8 Sep 99, at 9:55, Thom Bradley wrote: Perhaps there is a pheromone > that is released by some queens when glands are uder/overdeveloped in > different amounts than "normal" that cause the aggressive behavior. the > response by the worker bees is still genetically passed on. Perhaps the t > triggering of the alarm response can also be passed in several different > ways by the queen. I believe you're getting there! Jean has a good nose for various smells and fragrances and has commented more than once on 'pear drops' on opening certain hives. This smell is in the air and we tend to think of it as alarm pheromone, checking our facts it's the angry hives again. Can anyone put a name to alarm pheromone scent? ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:05:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Comparing Natural Mite Drop to Apistan Drop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, we decided to test for mites before applying treatment, on the off-chance we could save some $$$, and here's what we learned: First tried natural mite drop, using 6 mesh hardware cloth over Permadent foundation sheets sprayed with PAM. On 40 hives (doubles), over a 4 day period, we found one mite on one board. We then re-inserted clean boards and placed two Apistan(R) strips into the upper brood box and waited 24 hours. At that time this is what we found. Hive # Natural Drop Count with Apistan --------------------------------------------------------------- 9 1 mite 0 mites 15 0 1 9 0 1 14 0 1 5 0 2 29 0 14 31 0 1 32 0 6 33 0 7 24 0 15 27 0 1 28 0 1 37 0 1 --------------------------------------------------------------- Total 1 mite 51 mites Plus one wierd little bug with a long proboscis. All hives not shown had zero counts in both tests. What does this mean, David? allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:33:18 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Splits,supersedure queens In-Reply-To: <199909080959.FAA19066@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 8 Sep 99, at 11:57, Anthony N Morgan wrote: > So why, if this is what David is actually saying, should an emergency > queen and a grafted queen produced from eggs from the same mother be > different ie. regressive/non-regressive (using the term as defined by > David)?? One must assume that David (as he has several times recommended) > removes capped queen cells on day 3 or 4 to ensure that the emergency > queens are NOT produced from "mature" larvae (incidentally I hate the term > grub). Input please! This is the very reason I raised these points in the first place, discussion. If I already had the answers I wouldn't raise the question. Unlike some I'm not here to polish my ego, thank you for avoiding personalities Tony. There has to be something missing in those few hours where the older larvae are selected by the bees. Make no mistake it is not an aberration and caused by 'your strain of bees' as some suggested. I remember my mentor years ago telling me to 'cut those early cells' that has to be over 40 years ago in the UK. Something has been going wrong for a lot of years. I don't remember any real problem with angry bees when I was a lot younger, but now it's all you hear about. I am writing to someone in the UK, and the stories coming back are horrendous, but it appears the authorities don't seem unduly concerned. > > As to agression not being genetic I must admit to being puzzled by this. > Most references state quite categorically that agression IS genetic and > related to racial purity. Brown bee - italian bee crosses were called > vicious by Ruttner for example. BIBBA is working towards "better bees", > ie. non-regressive in Davids terminology, by trying to breed pure A.m.m (a > form of positive regression). Comments? Again all I can repeat, it would appear that something is missing from queens of 'self made' or 'emergency' queens. Another example of this problem. Earlier this year we forced supersceded an angry hive (the last of them) with a grafted cell, checked her a few weeks later and found a new queen of our usual colour, good pattern etc. (we mark all our queens) A few weeks later we had reason to strip this hive looking for brood as boost. They had changed the queen yet again and had become nasty. Now that was in a matter of just a few short weeks, hardly time to have completely changed all the bees through the usual attrition. Perhaps BIBBA's approach might be a good one. We've crossed and recrossed bees so often to have lost the main physical characteristics of indiviudual strains and races, these boundaries are now so blurred as to be almost indistinguishable. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen DeHond Subject: Low honey flow? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just finishing up my first season in Upstate New York, near lake Ontario. We have had an extraordinarily low honey flow. of 11 supers only 2 of capped honey and 3 uncapped. We've had a relatively severe drought in the area, could this bee the cause? If any of you are upstaters could you let me know how your hives are doing? Am not sure if it's me or the weather. Didn't put first supers on until about July 4th as we got a late start. Thanks Karen DeHond Upstate NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:15:58 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: What is in my beeswax foundation, melted? In-Reply-To: <199909090132.VAA01460@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David Eyre wrote > My thoughts. Old Chinese foundation. There were reports of > adulterated foundation being imported. Is it possible that this is > some of it? A couple of years back we had some Chinese foundation offered to Australians at a cheap price. One of our prominent equipment manufacturers had it analysed and it was adulterated with other waxes. I believe it has been coming in for use in rolled candles and has not found it's way into the beekeeping side as all beekeepers were alerted to the fact that it was adulterated. Not sure what the last foundation used in these rolled candles is like. I have not heard of anyone getting an analysis in recent times. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:04:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Comparing Natural Mite Drop to Apistan Drop In-Reply-To: <199909090211.WAA02247@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It could mean that the mite infestation is very light; even after just 24 hrs I would have expected larger mite drops if you had a serious infestation. However, if you're at all sceptical - ie if you're seeing lots of mites on adult bees afterwards (ether roll test etc) or in the brood cells you should leave the Apistan in for the full treatment period (6 weeks)and double-check after this with another, secondary control method as a test. If, after this second treatment there are high numbers of mites live in the colony, it could be that there is a tolerant strain of mite in your hive. Before reaching this conclusion (which many people assume all too quickly) you really need to see it for yourself. Pyrethroid resistant mites, if they are there will not be just in ones and twos but in hundreds. If you're NOT seeing huge mite numbers after the Apistan treatment pyrethroid resistance is probably not (yet) an issue for you to deal with. As with other veterinary and agricultural pest control regimes, different types of treatment should be alternated where possible as good Integrated Pest Management. For us in beekeeping this means licenced treatments and/or use of biological/mechanical manipulation/use of known natural remedies where permitted. Noone should fool themselves that just putting [any] one type of hive treatment in the hive is the end of the story. Varroa is a mean bugger and is determined to live off our bees. In our history, try as we might, humans have not eliminated a single insect or mite pest from our planet; in some cases we can achieve control. Vigilance and a flexible approach are essential to keep Varroa at acceptably low levels. Sorry if this goes on a bit but I think it's important. Hope to see some of you at Vancouver. Max ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:00:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Low honey flow? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/8/99 7:26:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kdehond@NETACC.NET writes: << Just finishing up my first season in Upstate New York, near lake Ontario. We have had an extraordinarily low honey flow. of 11 supers only 2 of capped honey and 3 uncapped. We've had a relatively severe drought in the area, could this bee the cause? If any of you are upstaters could you let me know how your hives are doing? Am not sure if it's me or the weather. Didn't put first supers on until about July 4th as we got a late start. >> Your main flow there is late June to mid July, from basswood, sweet clover and white clover, so the flow was probably half over by the time you added supers. August is often quite lean, though you might have loosestrife nearby (looks like Pennzoil, and doesn't taste much better). You may also have alfalfa in August if you have hayfields that don't get cut before bloom. Goldenrod is abundant and deceptive, because it doesn't yield much on the limestone soils along Lake Ontario. It yields much better on the shale-based soils in the Finger Lakes. You are also in an area where pesticide hits are very common. Did you see any evidence of any hits? One hit can deprive you of your crop, as bees will stop producing and become consumers while they replace lost bees. You also can get residual poisons stored away in pollen early in the summer. The losses appear to be over, but during the winter, when bees uncover and start using the contaminated pollen, they will lose more bees and hives can die, without fresh pollen to dilute the effects. These winter losses are often not recognized as pesticide losses, but you can tell, if you put frames of pollen from these deadouts back into live bees in the spring, and you will see the brood pattern become spotty, as if the queen were failing. The worst pesticide hits occur from three occasions: 1. fruit growers spray petal fall sprays before full petal fall, 2. fruit growers spray insecticide on clover in the orchard floor in late June or July, 3. sweet corn growers spray insecticide during corn pollen shed, or when goldenrod is blooming along field margins in late August/September. Once in a while, some idiot will spray blooming alfalfa. All are devastating, and illegal, because they are violations of label directions. Give your local growers a copy of the pesticide flow chart, which you can find on the pollination home page (under cotton). Drought would have to be extremely severe to cut production much. Some of the best production years in the past have been droughts. Beekeepers say a drought will scare you to death, but a rainy season will starve you to death. Of course the timing of the drought is probably quite important. For many of the flows, you need rain before bloom, and sunshine during bloom.... There are some patches where black locust provides a nice early flow. Black locust is deep rooted, and can yield like crazy in a drought year, but if it rains, the flow is over. If your bees are in good shape in the spring, practice good swarm control and super early, because you are in an early area. There is no place in the world where dandelion grows more prolifically, and an expert beekeeper can sometimes get a deep super or more just from dandelion. Poor beekeepers (who let bees swarm, or don't have supers on), and those who do fruit pollination give up this flow. Late May and early June are lull times, unless you have locust, then you have abundant clover the last week of June and most of July. You also have basswood which blooms briefly but yields a lot some years in early to mid July. There are brambles, sumac, milkweed, and many other sources also at this time. Then you may have another lull. If you have the capacity to move your bees into the shale belt in mid-August, you can sometimes get a big goldenrod flow in early September. In a good goldenrod area, with ideal weather, and bees in good shape, you can make a hundred pounds per hive in a one-week flow. Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles): http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:32:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re comparing Natural Mite Drop to Apistan Drop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote of the differences found in Natural Mite Mortality and use of Apistan strips - and also said, "Plus one weird little bug with a long proboscis", but KNOW he was not referring to me. As a UK beekeeper where the majority of colonies are managed in single brood boxes I enquire whether strips, either Apistan or Bayvarol, placed in the upper box which surely at this time of year will contain generally stores is the correct position. I appreciate they are contact acaricides and bees with mites attached will enter the top boxes but would they not be more effective in the lower boxes. Agreed more work to lift off boxes. Incidentally Bayvarol strips are manufactured so that two strips can be joined together, end-to-end, for use in multiple boxes. Have never tried using them in this fashion, my bees are 'weird little bugs' that would always build the obstructive bit of wild comb in the wrong place. Ken Hoare Shropshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:38:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hugo Thone Organization: Alcatel Telecom Subject: Re: Comparing Natural Mite Drop to Apistan Drop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > Well, we decided to test for mites before applying treatment, on the off-chance >. >. >. > We then re-inserted clean boards and placed two Apistan(R) strips into the upper > brood box and waited 24 hours. At that time this is what we found. > > Hive # Natural Drop Count with Apistan > --------------------------------------------------------------- >. >. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Total 1 mite 51 mites > > > All hives not shown had zero counts in both tests. > > What does this mean, David? > I think this proves that there is something wrong with your Apistan strips or the way you are applying them. I have been counting varroa mites during the months july and augustus : weekly average : 0 ..3 mites per hive (bottom of hives completely open) I inserted strips the 20th of august, and half an hour later I could start counting mites. Next day I counted between 100 and 300 mites per colony. This number decreased drastic the next days. cheers, hugo (the half a bee) -- Hugo Thone (VJ93) email htho@se.bel.alcatel.be Alcatel Telecom phone (32) 3 240 94 52 F. Wellesplein 1 fax (32) 3 240 99 49 B2018 - Antwerpen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:31:05 -0400 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: Low honey flow? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karen, I'm located in Ontario along the eastern end of Lake Ontario and I've had the best honey year ever. It's been hot and dry here since April and if you had asked me at the beginning of the season with it being so warm so quickly I would had said it's going to be a terrible season. But they proved me wrong again :-) I had my supers on in April and extracted the first batch in July. It just might be your area, some are better than others. If I had 1 hive or so that didn't produce then I would think about re queening. Since it sounds like you have around 5 hives and this is your first year I would guess it's the area. Did you see much pollen in the spring? Did the hives appear to build up in the spring? Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:32:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Dubas Subject: Re: what is in my beeswax foundation, melted ? Comments: To: admin@beeworks.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------Original Message------ >Surely there is no honey in foundation? Yes I first noticed it when melting down like 40-50 pounds of scrap foundation, I saw this oily substance on top.. well this past week when I was extracting I went to render my cappings and found the same thing, definately not honey & water. The first batch rendered did not have the oily substance in it. When I did the second batch of cappings It was there at that point I realized that while I was extracting the second batch of honey a frame totally broke up so I through all the comb from that frame in my cappings holder, so when I rendered those cappings(the second batch) there was that oily stuff on top and im possitive it was from the foundation that was at the base of the comb that I threw into my cappings holder. so thats why Im upset that this stuff is in my good cappings wax and I cant sift it or anything Im going to have to make a candle with it to test it... Just bugs me.. I hate impurities in my wax :) > My thoughts. Old Chinese foundation. There were reports >of >adulterated foundation being imported. Is it possible that this >is >some of it? very possible... now to figure out what it is...and how it will affect the burning of my candles... Andrew Dubas www.dubees.com **************************************** ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:55:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Comparing Natural Mite Drop to Apistan Drop In-Reply-To: <199909091155.HAA12366@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It could mean that the mite infestation is very light; even after just 24 > hrs I would have expected larger mite drops if you had a serious > infestation. However, if you're at all sceptical - ie if you're seeing lots > of mites on adult bees afterwards (ether roll test etc) or in the brood > cells you should leave the Apistan in for the full treatment period (6 > weeks)and double-check after this with another, secondary control method as > a test. Thanks to all that replied. Maybe I should give a little more information here and clarify some of the questions that were raised. * First the yard is my home yard with odds and ends of hives left from queen rearing activities earlier in the year. (Yes we did raise thousands of cells which we insert into the splits that we make in spring as mentioned earlier. Only a small proportion and the ones which do not get a viable cell have emergency queens). * These hives have received bees from the extracting room windows over the last month and we expect that if there are any mite problems anywhere, mites will be on window bees. * The hives came from all over our outfit and some have been brought in in the last few months. Some have been shuffled around from here to there several times. * Bees are active from top to bottom of the hives, and when clustered do cover the top bars wall to wall. They are presently eating pollen patties that are located right adjacent to the strips on the top bars of the top box, and as Aaron & I observed yesterday, they have eaten up to half a pound since the patties were applied 5 days ago. The patties being the same colour as the mites do complicate the detection a little, since the odd fragment -- about the size of a mite -- lands on the sticky board. * The hives weight about 50 kg each and are all doubles on pallets of four. The pallets are separated by up to 200 feet. * I have never seen a mite on an adult bee or brood, although we will look in the two hives that showed the highest drops. The purpose of this test is to see if it is practical to 24 hour test *every hive* -- either with Apistan (R) or formic pads -- individually in a 3,000 hive operation, and then only leave the strips in the ones showing significant drops, which we would assume actually need treatment. We intend to do a 24 hour formic drop test on the *same hives today, after leaving all the Apistan (R) out for 24 hours, to see if the results are similar. This should prove the efficacy of the Apistan (R) or not. All the comments are appreciated, although I don't completely understand everything that has been said. Please feel free to add to what is said or to disagree. I need all the viewpoints I can get. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: list@mail.yazbek.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Baxter YazBek.com" Subject: Beekeeping in Arab Countries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everybody, donnow if this interests many but i hope it interests some of us. loads of article about beekeeping in arab countries can be found on http://YazBek.com/AraBee, in arabic and english. i just inserted the latest issue or the arabian beekeeper magazine in arabic with english abstracts for some articles, as well as the book of the first intl arab apic congress, english publications. hope u like them, baxter dipl.agr.eng. m.a.journalism ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:27:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to be everybody's ambition to exterminate wax moths, but think on. The feral colony that died of AFB, what ate its comb and stopped it being a permanent source of infection? Wax moths. Similarly your unhygienic beekeeping neighbour who leaves comb around for your bees to raid, bringing back bugs: wax moths may encourage him to mend his ways or take up a different hobby. He might even sell you his kit cheaply. Don't knock the moth. He has his place in the natural order. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:38:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: wax moths In-Reply-To: <199909092157.RAA10076@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It seems to be everybody's ambition to exterminate wax moths. As I recall, we think of the varieties of moth that attack beehives as wax moths, but they have other duties, and only work on beehives incidentally. As I understand it, there are other reservoirs besides beehives for them, and they will never completely disappear in climates where they are comfortable. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: what is in my beeswax foundation, melted ? In-Reply-To: <199909091545.LAA20590@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 9 Sep 99, at 11:32, Andrew Dubas wrote: > and I cant sift it or anything Im going to have to make a candle with it > to test it... Just bugs me.. I hate impurities in my wax :) > very possible... now to figure out what it is...and how it will affect the > burning of my candles... First find the guy who adulterated it. ;-)) kick him where he sits, after asking... politely, what he used. Seriously that would be impossible without a chemical breakdown. Here's a trick taught to remove surface contamination. Remelt the wax to get all this stuff on the surface, then draw a paper towel across the surface. If you start at the far side, draw it toward you gently raising the leading edge as you get toward the closer edge. The contaminate will tend to stick to the towel leaving the wax surface clean. Try it, it should work. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 06:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: russian beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'm looking for a monograph on the history of beekeeping in Siberia, written in English---my Russian is hazy. Any leads? Bill Mares C.V.U. High School Hinesburg, VT Bee happy in your work! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:31:45 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Varroa Treatment. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have been working all year on alternative Varroa treatments and think it's only fair I should share the results. During the winter of '98-'99 after the devastating demise of a lot of our hives to Varroa, plus our dislike of chemicals, it was decided that we needed a different approach than the official one, Formic acid in the spring and Apistan in the fall. We reasoned that a lot of damage was done to the bee population by Varroa during the summer months while the supers were in place, leading to diseases that Apistan could not control when placed in the hive in the fall. Which might explain the loss of hives in the winter even using Apistan. Our aim, to find a series of treatments which could be used on an ongoing basis even during the time supers were on the hives, to keep the Varroa population in check and avoid excessive bee damage by Varroa. We decided that we needed a treatment that could be applied to the hive before the weather improved enough for us to open the hives and spring inspection. It is well known that brooding can start as early as Jan, and by mid April the Varroa population could be quite extensive. With all that in mind we decided on essential oil (a la James Amrine) as a spring stimulation feed and later FGMO (a la Dr.R) as a summer treatment. The essential oil treatment went as follows. James states that wintergreen oil stratifies in sugar syrup and causes problems when fed to bees, he also states that honey is a natural emulsifier and that wintergreen oil will be absorbed quite readily. Using this information we added 100 drops of wintergreen to one half pound of honey and stirred till absorbed, this we added to one gallon of 1-1 sugar syrup. The oil mixed very easily and we didn't find any separating of the oil and water. This resulting mixture was fed to the bees over a period of time in small quart jars (1/16th holes in the lid) inverted over the inner cover, even while snow covered. Our records show that every hive regardless of size or condition received at least 3 jars over a period of a few weeks. The thinking, is that wintergreen fed to the hive, first feeds the brood, then the adult bees and finally the remains go into stores. The mixture fed to brood changes the smell and confuses the chemical sensors of the Varroa, preventing a breeding place. Once nectar becomes available in any quantity the bees will ignore internal feed and so this treatment was dispensed with when dandelion flow commenced, which also coincides with spring inspections. Food Grade Mineral Oil has been discussed on this list many times, but the method and frequency of treatment seemed a trifle ambiguous to us. We decided to use a squeeze bear with a tiny hole in the spout, and a stream across the top bars, and settled on a weekly treatment or every time the hive was opened. You might recall we are breeders and break and open our hives fairly frequently. I must be frank, looking back it is possible that I could have been more diligent in the weekly application. Pressures and priorities tend to throw chaos onto good intentions. Over the summer it became a routine, open the hive, do what wanted doing, before adding the inner cover a quick zip across all the top bars. Once, and only once I sloshed some across the lower box top bars of two hives, figuring as bee keepers do that 'more is even better'. Next day I found a queen with her red hat on, outside on the alighting board, dead. "Now I remember Dr.R said, "don't get any on the queen"". On starting this program we decided on the end of Aug to assess wether it had been successful or not. To help with that decision a drop test with Apistan would be performed on two hives. A regular 3 box hive and a drone mother, the latter, just to see if there really is a problem with excess mite production with lots of drones. We performed a drop test at the end of Aug and to be frank was disappointed initially with the results, mainly as we had no experience with Varroa numbers. The regular hive had a drop of approx 100 mites over 24 hours and the drone mother 150-200 mites in the collection tray, sprayed with Pam to prevent walk out. I felt that given the amount of treatment that these numbers were too high. So I grumbled and cussed some, until I had the bright idea of asking a customer to perform a similar drop test on a non treated hive. This hive of his, similar size, close in proximty, Apistan treated in the spring and strips removed 24th May, since that time no other treatment. I suppose the purists would insist I allowed one of my hives to go untreated completely, just to prove I have Varroa. Anyway, the drop test was performed in exactly the same way and the results were astounding. There were thousands and I mean thousands of Varroa in the tray, the whole surface was literally covered. So, my hives and drop test showed Varroa, but relatively few, where the other test hive without alternative treatments was literally infested. Where to from here? Because of the devastating loss of so many hives and the interminable amount of hours involved with dealing with dead outs, I chickened out and each hive has Apistan. Next year, I will be more diligent in the treatment, and if as successful as this year will allow some hives to go without Apistan and note the results. There has been a number of posts deriding FGMO, but I firmly believe it has promise, but needs a well regimented approach to it's use. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:04:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa Treatment. In-Reply-To: <199909110308.XAA16909@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There has been a number of posts deriding FGMO, but I firmly believe > it has promise, but needs a well regimented approach to it's use. I agree. Since list members are probably wondering what the other side of recent reports on FGMO might be, Dr Rodriguez recently sent me a note from which I'll quote excerpts: (begin quote) "...Some of the Bee-L subscribers have written to me and forwarded comments that have been posted on Bee-L; some pro and some con. Of particular interest is the fact that some of these indicate that I have given up my research with FGMO. I have never given that indication to anyone. I know only of two people (in two different U.S. Universities) who are formally attempting to duplicate my work and their results are not out yet!... Concerning FGMO, our work is still going strong. I now have two associates who are very much involved with my work who have proven to be very valuable because the work load was far too much for one person alone, I was spending half of my retirement pay on my research, and to add credibility to the findings. I realized from the outset that I (and so stated) would need to find a cost effective method in order for FGMO to be useful for ALL beekeepers. I have been working with an FGMO emulsion application (in addition to fgmo fog) that is working like a charm as I will publish soon. I am now gathering my final data. Don't discount me because you don't hear from me. My co-workers and I are very much involved with FGMO... It has been clear from the outset that we are working for the benefit of honey bees in particular and humanity in general. As I have said many times before, time will tell." (end of quote) We all hope that something definite will come from this work. At this point, the treatment is still experimental. Those who experiment with FMGO before a final method is released by Dr. Rodriguez, and proven by others as well, must keep in mind that it is essential to monitor results and consider alternative methods if FGMO efforts appear to be failing. I have not yet personally tried FGMO, but am watching developments with interest. As those who read BEE-L may have noted, my son and I have recently been conducting some comparisons of natural mite fall with Apistan (R) and formic pads' knockdown results in several yards, and the results have not been at all what we expected. So far, my only conclusion is that the mite load can vary fairly widely in one beeyard, and that one must measure, and not guess -- or trust that any treatment is functioning. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 13:16:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Pollination Impact of Massive Mosquito Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI - Repost of item made to fruit growers: In the mid-Atlantic area of the US, massive aerial applications of Naled are now being undertaken, in the areas where rains from Dennis occurred. If you are a grower in this area, you should be aware of the implications. These project managers routinely ignore the label directions for bee protection and circumvent the law by dumping the responsibility onto beekeepers. (They've been lobbying EPA for exemption from bee directions - a kind of back-door way of admitting that they are violating them.) Beekeepers often cannot reach all their bee yards in the wake of floods; also, the aerial applications can impact several bee yards all on the same day. Furthermore, this system to evade the law ignores the non-Apis pollinators altogether. In some areas, wild bees do significant fruit pollination. Some species may be dormant, but others that are active on fall flowers may get wiped out. Bees that are working goldenrod usually drop on the site and don't make it home. It's too late in the season for the bees to replace their losses, and the weakened hives do not have a big enough cluster to get through the coming cold weather. If you can have any input into these applications, insist that the bee protection directions be obeyed. Bee foraging times must be established by fact, not guesswork. Monitor hives should be used to determine the hours of bee foraging, and the applications be done only when the monitors show that foraging is done for the day. Any other adulticide application is illegal. Typically, they ignore any monitoring, and arbitrarily set the applications for late afternoon. The forage pattern for fall flowers typically reaches a peak in the late afternoon. You may call your beekeeper next spring, and find him out of business, or unable to supply the pollination demand. And believe me, if they spray in your area, while bees are working goldenrod and other late bloom, the need for managed pollination will be greater than ever. Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles): http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:52:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Fwd: Varroa Treatment. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Food Grade Mineral Oil has been discussed on this list many times, >but the method and frequency of treatment seemed a trifle ambiguous >to us. We decided to use a squeeze bear with a tiny hole in the >spout, and a stream across the top bars, and settled on a weekly >treatment or every time the hive was opened. You might recall we are >breeders and break and open our hives fairly frequently. After looking through the archives it seems that FGMO is thought to kill the mites by suffocating them. This of course will also kill bees as was noted in the demise of a queen in a hive that got a bit too much. All of this aside, would a plant oil (such as olive oil) work in the same fashion? Would it cause the mites a problem and have less impact on the bees? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2099 20:26:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carole Hawirko Subject: Low Honey Flow? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent Stienburg wrote that he had his honey supers on in April and there was a good honey flow on in spite of the hot, dry weather. As we also are from Ontario we were just curious as to whether Kent had treated for tracheal and varroa mites with the Formic acid pads as was recommended to us all by the Provincial Apiarist. It just seems that April is a little early to have already treated for the suggested number of days and be able to put supers on too. Perhaps it was warmer where he is and there was time. Just curious. Carole Hawirko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:58:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Misuse of strips In-Reply-To: <199908280330.XAA16561@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I was glad to see Jim Bach's post on the disposal of Apistan and Bavarol. > > Move over Jim, there's more room on that soapbox! > > Soapbox? A pulpit might be more appropriate! It must be nice to live > in a world of absolute black and white, no half measures or if and > what if? I respect all the parties here, and have learned quite a bit from all, but I'm going to have to side strongly with David here for a number of good reasons: I'm a bit concerned whenever I hear people suggesting that others should not post openly about what they have done and are doing or are considering -- or even wondering about -- because of legality or propriety, or conventionality. (Don't think, though, that means that I support anyone's 'right' to post inappropriate, repetitive, or disruptive material to this group). Aaron once signed a post,"... enquiring minds need to know". We do need to know, if we are to make wise decisions, and open exchange of ideas and information is essential to a free society. 'Free' means that we can each decide whether to follow rules -- as we understand them -- or to disregard them and suffer the consequences. I realise that freedom for others who are different from us is threatening to many, but the only way we can be free ourselves is to allow our neighbours to be free. Ignorance is one of the strongest forces on earth, and the 'net is one of the tools we have to overcome it. Restricting information and intimidation is one of the traditional methods by which people seek to gain advantage over others. If we want a free society, we must make honest information freely available, without discrimination. "Information just wants to be free". It seems to me that the problems associated with development and application of something like Apistan (R) are very complex, and developing a label and methods that fit all situations involves so many considerations and assumptions that it is actually an impossible task. Nonetheless, the manufacturer and regulators have come up with something, and we are all expected to live with it. But it is a compromise and any wise and honest person knows it is. Following rules has consequences, breaking rules has consequences. In this case, following rules to the letter -- even if they could be perfectly understood, which they cannot -- may not have been practical, possible or even desirable. After all, the purpose of putting in Apistan (R) is to keep the bees alive. The clincher, though is the label. I actually took one out and read it again. The Canadian label, at least says, "For best results, use one strip for each 5 frames or less of bees... For best chemical distribution, use when daytime temperatures are at least 10 degrees C... Place strips in hive for 42 days. Remove strips after treatment period. Honey supers may be replaced after strips are removed." Now we have extension people routinely and automatically recommending 4 strips. That means 20 frames of bees in the spring or fall. Well, I don't even *have* 20 *frames of comb* in a double brood chamber hive. I have 16 to 18, and at this time of year, when things settle down, they are not all covered with bees. At 15 degrees C, and without a flow, we count about 12 frames of bees right now in the strong hives, and 9 or so in the others. Hmmmm, one demerit for the extension guys. And, the label says, "For best results...". This does not sound like an edict, it sounds like a suggestion to me. Then it says, "For best chemical distribution...". This again sounds like a suggestion, open to some compromise. Further it says, "Place strips in hive for 42 days. Remove strips after treatment period. Honey supers may be replaced after strips are removed." This appears to mean that the treatment period is 42 days, and some time (unspecified) after that time, you are to remove them, especially if you wish to put supers on. Seeing as the chemical distribution is poor below 10 degrees C and the bees are not even on the strips in winter (they are down below for most of the winter and only come up later -- it seems reasonable not to make destructive efforts to go and collect the spent strips. It is my understanding that properly employed strips are pretty well used up after the 42 days. I think someone here said that only 10% of the chemical remained after that time. I have no proof, but seeing as my label claims 10.25% fluvalinate-tau -- it does not specify by weight or by volume, so the assumption is by weight -- one should be able to weigh them and confirm this, assuming manufacture is reasonably accurate. Of course, everyone is concerned about the development of Apistan (R) tolerant varroa, but it is not the fault of one beekeeper if this happens, it is the fault of the manufacturers and regulators. Development of tolerance, and the timeframe in which it will occur, is a predictable *certainty* for many reasons, however the main reason that we will lose this method of mite control in a short period, is simply that it is only one method, relies on a rather fragile mechanism, and a second or third methods are not rotated with it. I submit that tolerance will arrive here *at the same time, regardless of whether David, and other Davids, leave their strips in over winter*. Further... If anyone thinks for a moment that the Apistan (R) rules -- even if they were carved in stone and written in perfectly clear legal language, which they are not -- could be, or are, followed flawlessly to the letter in actual practice, I can assure that person that it is simply not possible. I have 3,000 hives and I think I am a fairly good operator. I have notes and charts and instructions for my staff that impress most who see them. Nonetheless, we missed some hives here and there, both in inserting strips, and removing them. We even missed a whole yard somehow. Additionally, the strips are sometimes poorly made, and tear when being removed and sometimes fall down in between frames and are lost. In hive inspections, I think any honest person who opens thousands of hives, will admit to finding lost or forgotten strips more than occasionally. It might take a generation for a strip to accidentally get lost once in a hive in a 10 hive operation, but it is happening on a significant and consistent basis all over the world. No amount of regulation or chiding will stop it. It is just a feature of the method and is inevitable. This feature may have more effect on eventual tolerance than even deliberate abuse -- if this term can be defined -- by individuals. > In my world of greys and off whites there has to be areas to > manoeuvre in. In my case I made certain to state that I knew it to be > wrong to leave strips in all winter with no intention of repeating it > this year, but in your world of B&W it would state 'leave them out'. > Save years of hard work and selection and my bees of course, or leave > the strips out and watch them die! I'm not so sure you were wrong. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:59:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Misuse of strips In-Reply-To: <199909121402.KAA12812@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Of course, everyone is concerned about the development of Apistan (R) tolerant >varroa, but it is not the fault of one beekeeper if this happens, it is the >fault of the manufacturers and regulators. Development of tolerance, and the >timeframe in which it will occur, is a predictable *certainty* for many >reasons, >however the main reason that we will lose this method of mite control in a >short >period, is simply that it is only one method, relies on a rather fragile >mechanism, and a second or third methods are not rotated with it. I submit >that >tolerance will arrive here *at the same time, regardless of whether David, and >other Davids, leave their strips in over winter*. > I am going to have to respectfully disagree about the resistance, but first in regards to the conversation I would like to insert some thoughts. While I think we should all be very careful to avoid even the slightest hint of attacking the person there are times their actions need to be rebuked. Black and white issues are all over the place and we just love to dodge them by claiming shades of grey. What David did was in error, he even comes to that conclusion in the post that started all of this. David was "in the dark" because he had been given bad information. I think he did his best to act on the information given, but he was doomed from the start. That is why this list is here, to bring about the sharing of information. Now that David has the correct information, he would not repeat the actions. To put it into another light, David has confessed (agreed) his error and has repented (turned) from the error, it is now time to forget the transgression. If anybody misuses any chemical they will speed the arrival of resistant pests, this is a very well understood cause and effect. Low level exposure will help select for resistance. Excessive exposure will pressure the selection process as well. Proper exposure will allow generations that have no pressure from the treatment to continue in the population. Yes, there is every chance that resistance would arrive anyway, but if we can even delay it by a few months we will have a much better chance of finding a way to stop it without having to introduce a much more toxic (to humans as well as other life) treatment. Let us all remember what is at stake here. Not only are we talking about how many on this list feed their family, we are talking about the little insects that help feed our nations. We have a bit of a duty to deal with our problems beyond our own feelings. Like many other things in history a small group is trying to solve a big problem that will impact many others if it is not solved. Thanks you all for the use of the pulpit. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:35:21 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Fwd: Varroa Treatment. In-Reply-To: <199909111725.NAA27180@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 11 Sep 99, at 11:52, Al wrote: > All of this aside, would a plant oil (such as olive oil) work in the same > fashion? Would it cause the mites a problem and have less impact on the > bees? There are a number of oils all of which will work. Canola and vegetable oils, Pam cooking spray, even used motor oil, I know as out of interest I tried them all on some mites. The idea is to use an oil which won't impact on the honey. So anything with a strong smell would be intrusive. There is much experimenting to be done. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:01:14 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CONSTANTIN DOBRESCU Subject: Re: Help ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two days ago I noticed a great number of bees at the entrance of one of my four hives. When trying to open it, practically all the bees existing inside left the hive. The queen was gone, no honey and even no brood remained. My conclusion was that there had been an attack of other bees who stole everything from my hive (actually my weakest). I checked the other 3 and one of them was in a bad state, too. The queen had no wings, the number of bees was much smaller than one week ago, but there still is honey inside. What is the best thing to do now? Give up this queen and try to merge the family with one of the remaining two? Constantin Dobrescu, beginner Romania ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:40:12 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: NZ Bkpg Business for Sale... Business for Sale in New Zealand (for prompt sale) Greenvale Apiaries Keith Herron Southland New Zealand Your opportunity to purchase a well maintained business, with proven production of quality clover honey, cut comb, native floral honey, and a potential for paid pollination work in beautiful Southern New Zealand. The business includes: 1500 hives located on sites in the southern part of New Zealand. Many hives on pallets (2 per pallet) suitable for shifting for honey flows or pollination work. Honey house, workshop, storage sheds, large 4 bedroom home, 3 bedroom cottage, staff quarters, on 20 acres of land planted with shelter trees. Vehicles including Yanmar loader with fork mast and trucks to suit the operation. Honey house plant and equipment. Gentle bee stock. Located 20 miles from good service town (Gore, population 8000). Southland province is famous for outdoor recreation including trout fishing, bush walking, skiing, boating and lakes. Greenvale Apiaries has been producing for over 70 years. Reluctantly offered for sale as a result of health change of owner. Price: US $340,000 firm for 30 days from 11 September 1999 Please direct enquiries to: Bevan Pearce Macdonald & Associates Chartered Accountants PO Box 24 Gore, New Zealand Phone: +64 3 208 9390 Fax: +64 3 208 9129 Email: macdonald@esi.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 23:30:20 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Pictures of NZ... I forgot to add that there are some photos of Southland and the Herron beekeeping business at: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/herron.htm (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: Help ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Constantin, Well, it sounds like robbing. Try reducing your entrances. I'm not familiar with conditions in Romania but I assume most of the main honey flows are over? You should try to find out why the hives are weak and deal with it from that angle . Maybe disease, mites or a poor queen. The one hive sounds bad. To much depends on the conditions in your area so I really don't feel I can tell you for sure what to do regarding the one weak hive. If there is still ample time left before it gets to cold you could try to buy a queen. I think it might be to late for you to raise one yourself, since it takes about a month to get a laying queen and you need the drones to, but you will know better yourself. If you have doubts and the problem persists then I think if it was me I would unit the hive with another and hope for the best. Just make sure you kill the queen you don't want first. Good luck and keep us posted! Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:30:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: Tropical Conference Comments: To: IBRA Newsletter List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ~~~~~~~~~~~~ IBRA News Update ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IBRA's 7th International Conference on Tropical Bees, held in conjunction with the 5th Asian Apicultural Association International Conference will be held in Thailland, 19-25 March 2000. Full details about the event and registration forms are available now on the IBRA web site at: http://www.cf.ac.uk/ibra/thailand2000 =================================================== This Newsletter was produced by Dr Pamela Munn Deputy Director of IBRA 18 North Road, Cardiff CF10 3DT, UK Tel: (+44) 29 20 372409 Fax: (+44) 29 20 665522 Email: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk IBRA WWW pages: http://www.cf.ac.uk/ibra =================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:40:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: Fwd: Varroa Treatment. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Al wrote: > All of this aside, would a plant oil (such as olive oil) work in the same > fashion? Would it cause the mites a problem and have less impact on the bees? URL "http://www.eureka.it/4a/news/evarroa1.txt" describes use of what I can only conclude is Castor Oil. Cheers Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7004 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Basic questions about FGMO again & again & again Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For those who are somewhat new to the Food Grade Mineral Oil as a miticide discussion and are wanting to ask questions about it, please read the archives first as your answer is more than likely there already. Go to: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html for the search. I typed in "fgmo" in the "Search For:" field and "January 1997" in the "Since:" field and pulled up 235 matches. A nice search engine for archives is a terrible thing to waste. Use it! -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois barry@birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 17:27:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen DeHond Subject: Uncapped honey?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted last week about a low honey flow, it turned out to be about 60% of what I'd hoped. Now new questions 44 lbs. 1/3 was uncapped honey, I've been told uncapped honey must be used SOON as it will start to ferment do to a high water content. 1. Would pasteurizing the honey slow spoilage and if so, HOW do I pasteurize it. 2. Is there a way to measure the water content to see if might be OK and keep longer. Thanks to all for all the help Karen DeHond upstate NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:04:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: eparker Organization: Serenity Gardens Subject: Re: Misuse of strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen Dick wrote; And, the label says, "For best results...". This does not sound like an = edict, it sounds like a suggestion to me. Then it says, "For best chemical distribution...". This again sounds like a suggestion, open to some = compromise. Further it says, "Place strips in hive for 42 days. Remove strips after treatment period. Honey supers may be replaced after strips are = removed." This appears to mean that the treatment period is 42 days, and some time (unspecified) after that time, you are to remove them, especially if you = wish to put supers on. -end- Is this the same way you would interpret this lable if it was on a = medicine bottle that was going to save your life? Ed Parker Serenity Gardens ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:24:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Uncapped honey?? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- >From: Karen DeHond > 1. Would pasteurizing the honey slow spoilage and if so, HOW do I > pasteurize it. http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search For: pasteurize Since: January 1990 Matches: 13 Item #18388 (17 Sep 1997 17:13) - Re: SEND RAW.TXT SEND RAW.DOC Pasteurized, Unpasteurized, Not Pasteurized, Natural, or Raw? What's the difference? Item #15839 (21 May 1997 09:14) - Re: Question on Wet Honey If you pasteurize it (not hard to do - use the same times and temperatures as for milk), it will keep 'forever', and can be blended when > 2. Is there a way to measure the water content to see if might be OK and > keep longer. A hydrometer. http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search For: hydrometer Since: January 1990 Matches: 19 Item #18019 (4 Sep 1997 09:26) - Re: Thin honey A Hydrometer can be obtained from Thorne's for around $30 I think. For those in the US, contact David Eyre at the Bee Works. E-mail: -Barry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:10:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re Varroa treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, You are to be congratulated heartily for your zeal in experimenting and thanked for sharing the results with us. Having had initial indications of promising lines of enquiry from this year's experiments and presuming that you will take the commercial risks involved in continuing your experiments which must involve some time/money and potential loss of crop, may I make some suggestions for next year's experiments? Use controls where possible. Separate out results from different treatments so you can tell whether it was the essential oil or the FGMO which was the decisive factor. Recent posts suggest that FGMO is not as good as was once thought but unfortunately this cannot be confirmed or denied from your results. Use your own colonies for comparison: your neighbours probably will not have been smoked and disturbed as often as yours and this may have a bearing on the mite fall. The fashion in alternative treatments seems to be tending towards essential oils in one form or another. If you have sufficient resources and interest it might be valuable to compare one with another. As a queen breeder with a commercial interest in drones you might be the ideal person to follow up and possibly improve upon Jan Templeman's helpful suggestions involving manipulations of drone comb. Regards, Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:27:59 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@WCTel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carolyn Ehle Organization: Wood Widgeon Farm Subject: Re: FGMO helped my bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit At the risk of jinxing what appears to be a "perfect game", here's a report on my FGMO method which appears quite effective (knock on wood). As a committed organic gardner and a very chemical-sensitive biologist (too many toxic spills), I've gone from a 1-hive hobby 2 years ago to very small commercial: 25 hives and counting this year, selling honey etc. No winter losses of 11 hives (thanks in part to mild Piedmont South Carolina winter), no summer losses despite major major drought, all this year's increase made on splits and swarms and 9 purchased queens, the rest (16 queens this year) raised here. Mite counts on worker brood now are 0 to 10%. A given hive may have 0 to 2 wing-deformed bees on inspection. Won't say I've won but I'm still in the fight with NO Apistan. My FGMO application is adapted from the trackboard mixture for essential oils given by the Univ. W Va folks. I melt together equal parts by volume of beeswax and mineral oil and, with regular stirring to keep it mixed, paint it on the walls (thick) and floor (thin) of a hive body. When I'm going for an inspection or at least every 6-8 weeks I pull the supers, move the bottom and main body to one side of the stand, put the empty 'glopped' bottom and body on the stand, and work my frames into it as I inspect. If there's a large patch of drone brood or some mite problems evident I may paint (melted) or smear (cooled) more glop on the frame bars or supers. The glop texture should be firm enough not to bog down a bee at hive temperature but soft enough to wear onto bee feet and trap a fallen mite. It cools very fast. I once to my horror watched a marked queen fall off the wall upside down onto a floor I had just painted with melted glop. It cooled immediately on her wings to its vaseline-y texture, was cleaned off and she survived for a year until I requeened. Too thick a floor layer can entrap debris that moths might use - they don't seem to like it by itself. In addition to FGMO I've picked drone brood out of hives (unless the genetics was desirable), separated the upper brood super with spring drones from main brood nest by placing a 'glopped' super between, and tried to time requeenings or permit supercessions during the late summer danger zone to break the brood cycle, and added trace minerals and ascorbic acid to sugar syrup when I feed. I intend to try some smoke methods, mesh floors, and in emergencies formic acid as well. Though a scientist by training, my work on pollinating bats in the tropics taught me to trust good old natural history and seat of the pants. It's often the only way to figure out what to test, and teaches us that the variables are so great that experimental science can only be approximated when dealing with complex natural systems. I'm not sure why my bees are still alive... but I plan to try everything I can for a few decades and then if someone will loan me a grad student with a grant maybe we can try to figure out why it worked... Apologies for the long-winded post... but I've held my breath so long... Carolyn in Plum Branch, (west central) SC, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:51:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Re Varroa treatment In-Reply-To: <199909132258.SAA25154@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Use controls where possible. Separate out results from different treatments >so you can tell whether it was the essential oil or the FGMO which was the >decisive factor. Recent posts suggest that FGMO is not as good as was once >thought but unfortunately this cannot be confirmed or denied from your >results. Use your own colonies for comparison: your neighbours probably will >not have been smoked and disturbed as often as yours and this may have a >bearing on the mite fall. What do you use for control hives? Untreated? Treated with Apistan(R)? With all of the additional factors that could enter into the experiment, the sample size would have to be rather large to show any solid indications. The advantage a queen breeder would have is that he has access to a large number of queens from the same stock. Even so I would guess at around 100 hives, 50 as control, to get solid numbers. Any thoughts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:37:43 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Uncapped honey?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Barry Birkey Date: 13 September 1999 15:24 Subject: Re: Uncapped honey?? >---------- >>From: Karen DeHond > >> 2. Is there a way to measure the water content to see if might be OK and >> keep longer. > >A hydrometer. > >A Hydrometer can be obtained from Thorne's for around $30 I think. >For those in the US, contact David Eyre at the Bee Works. E-mail: >-Barry > A refractometer which can also be purchased from Thorne's requires less of a sample, is calibrated directly in water content and is self adjusting for a wide temperature range. It is , however, much more expensive. Ruary Rudd rrudd@eircom.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:04:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Beekeepers near Guilford Connecticut Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello I am travelling to Connecticut on business on next Saturday September 18, and will have Sunday September 19 free. I will be staying in Guilford. I would be delighted to meet a beekeeper near to where I am to give me an opportunity to talk bees and swap experiences, and if appropriate look at a few hives. Looking forward to hearing from a Connecticut beekeeper. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:50:41 -0400 Reply-To: BobCan@Clover.Net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Subject: Medication Comments: To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was just at a Honey Festival in West Virginia where I heard that medication for Beekeepers are provided by the state free of charge. I was wondering if any other states have this available to them? I understood by speaking to one of the West Va. officials that this offering of free medication promotes Beekeepers to register their hives with the state and controlling Mites. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:48:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO helped my bees Comments: To: wwfarm@WCTel.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carolyn Ehle wrote: > > At the risk of jinxing what appears to be a "perfect game", here's a > report on my FGMO method which appears quite effective (knock on wood). > As a committed organic gardner and a very chemical-sensitive biologist > (too many toxic spills), I've gone from a 1-hive hobby 2 years ago to > very small commercial: 25 hives and counting this year, selling honey > etc. I hope you succeed, but one problem with varroa is the build up time. We had many beekeepers in Maine who thought they were fine when varroa first showed up so did not treat and did well for the first three years. Then they lost their bees over the winter. We are experiencing some fairly substantial losses this year. And it is right on time with the cycle of start, buildup, crash, start, buildup crash... It seems the cycle is three to five years, with four being more the norm. There are many variables when dealing with varroa. For example, many of the crashes seem to be tied with robbing of a varroa infested hive by a strong hive. That breaks the normal cycle and you can have major crashes with strong, supposedly healthy hives. Or you can be in an area with good beekeepers who treat and keep the varroa population in check and go untreated for years. Location also figures in. I think we have it much better in the northern climates than do those in the south. When our freral population is killed off it takes a while to build up again. The few real tests of FGMO still seem to indicate it does not work. And after reading the emails from those who put their faith in essential oils and lost everything, I will stay with Apistan, which is much more benign than formic acid. I go with the most benign but effective pesticide. If FGMO, which is being used as a pesticide, can be show to work, I would use it today. Bill T ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:53:11 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: FGMO helped my bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carolyn reported on her experiences with a beeswax/FGMO mixture for varroa control. This is an interesting report. I've got just a few questions, however. When you make up the "glop", what temperature do you reach? Obviously, you need to at least melt the beeswax, but then when you mix in the FGMO how cool does it get before the wax hardens - or does the mixture even harden? Then when you paint it onto the inside of the brood chambers, do you need to keep it still hot or warm? You say you check the worker brood cells for varroa, and find 0 - 10%. Is this the percentage of brood cells containing at least one mite? In such a cell, when found, how many mites are usually present? Also, I have an interest in how many mites you find in drone cells, since in my own experience varroa are usually preferentially present there. I assume you have also checked drone brood - what is the percentage of these cells with varroa? Do you also run control hives without the "glop" paint? Just wondering. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:16:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa Treatment. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/13/1999 8:16:00 AM EST, anthony@IET.HIST.NO writes: > > > All of this aside, would a plant oil (such as olive oil) work in the same > > fashion? Would it cause the mites a problem and have less impact on the > bees? > Olive oil only works on Italian bees. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:17:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Baird Subject: Bees cleaning up Hi all - My bees are doing their normal fall cleanup of drones, etc. (1 hive, upstate NY). I've noticed that once in a while they't haul out not only a dead bee, but one that's still kicking. The hauler is adamant, and keeps it up until the 'victim' is far from the hive. I've also noticed a few (very few) larvae being hauled out as well. Otherwise the hive appears healthy, normal behavior, not aggresive. Couldn't find anything in my copy of the The Hive and the Honeybee. Any thoughts? Just normal? Thank you in advance. Mark Baird ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@WCTel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carolyn Ehle Organization: Wood Widgeon Farm Subject: FGMO helped more info MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Didn't mean to bee cryptic but trying to keep it short. Ted Fischer asked for some details: I melt the wax over boiling water, measure it, then add equal amounts of similarly heated mineral oil. Occasionally the proportion ends up a little more or less. At hive temperatures (current ambient temps here in SC most days), it cools to an opaque, stiff texture somewhere between vaseline and peanut butter. It can be spread cool by hand (watch for splinters)or with a hive tool, but it is easier to use a paint brush while it's melted to get a quick, thorough, coat on an empty hive. I have used melted wax in the hive but very carefully and it takes time to find spots bare of bees. It hardens fairly quickly, so if I'm painting several boxes and bottom boards I hold it over the hot water or in a wide mouth thermos. Obviously this is impractical for thousands of hives. It can form a skin which I have watched mites crawl on but their little legs build up glop boots and they bog down and die fairly soon. I think they may get mineral oil into their spiracles (if that is the correct anatomy) because they die pretty quickly (minutes). I keep notes on mite #'s in hives each time but have not compiled the data. I'm afraid it might be miscontrued as a scientific sample when it's merely observational. Only in the last month have I found any mites in workers and I've rarely found more than 1 mite. In drone cells 1 mite in 10 cells is not uncommon, and I have occasionally found 1 to 4 in 30% of drone cells, especially when I didn't replace the glop befroe it had all worn off. Any time I find over 10% single mites in drone brood or multiple mites per cell I have tried to pick out or paint glop on as many drone cells as I can. The exception is when one of my hives that appears to have good genetics (check back in a decade or two) has drone cells and I suspect a mating may be needed soon (swarm season or supercessions pending. (I buy queens too). Then I've moved the brood near a glopped wall if possible and smeared cool glop on the frame wood as close as possible to the brood. I also catch live drones as I see them and check them for mites. Those proportions are usually about double or more the brood proportion (mite presence that is, there is rarely more than 1 mite/ adult). Again, the sample #'s are not consistent or controlled for location, glop timing varies (I work full time plus home business and farm), etc. Bill Truesdell's comment on the 3-4 year cycling, which I also have deduced from the list (thank you all), is one reason I haven't reported before now. I do not consider the battle won and this is only one of a hopefully increasing number of methods available, especially to us little guys, for our Integrated Pest Management Programs. For those who use Apistan (I don't knock that at all, just am too chemical sensitive even with pyerethroids) it may help when the honey supers are on. Keep up the comments and the good work. Love this list!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:53:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Varroa Mite Breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Recently, a beekeeper said to me that if there is an abundance of mites and a shortage of brood, that many mites will enter each brood cell to reproduce. That is accepted. But what he said next is what I am puzzled about. He claimed that in this situation that the mites may not breed incestously because of the availability of mites not related as siblings. And because of this non incestuous breeding, the eggs produced would be more viable and thus contribute to a major increase in the number of mites. Is this analysis correct? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 99