From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 13 07:12:57 2000 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08311 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02307 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200002131212.HAA02307@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:55 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9910C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 82438 Lines: 1848 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:19:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JCHenry500@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Attraction to Light MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Earlier this week we had a "cookout" near one of my hives. We used three types of lighting; kerosene lanterns, "Coleman" lanterns, and electric fluorescent lights. Halfway through he evening we realized that the fluorescent lights were attracting bees and moved those lanterns away from the group. Why did the bees gather only around that one kind of light? Was it because it was cool and the others hot, or is it related to the wavelength of the light. Charles Henry Little Rock ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:51:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Attraction to light Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A guess at the reason for bees' attraction to fluorescent light, mentioned by John Henry: Von Frisch teaches that bees are blind to red, but sensitive the colors other than red that we see, and to ultraviolet. The spectrum of incandescent lights, whether electrically or thermally activated, is centered toward the red, even extending into the infra-red, which neither we nor bees can see. Fluorescent lamps do not internally generate much visible light, but ultraviolet light, much of which is converted into light visible both to us and to bees by the phosphor coating (white powder) on the inside of the glass envelope. Any ultraviolet that escapes conversion and happens to sneak through the combination of phosphor and glass, though invisible to us, will likely also be visible to bees. Thus it is likely that most of the output of fluorescent lights is visible to bees, making such relatively bright source. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:42:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Attraction to Light MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/10/99 12:29:36, you write: << Earlier this week we had a "cookout" near one of my hives. We used three types of lighting; kerosene lanterns, "Coleman" lanterns, and electric fluorescent lights. Halfway through he evening we realized that the fluorescent lights were attracting bees and moved those lanterns away from the group. Why did the bees gather only around that one kind of light? Was it because it was cool and the others hot, or is it related to the wavelength of the light. >> I recollect that van Praagh did a lot of work in the 70's and 80's on flight rooms in the Netherlands, and had problems with illumination. Fluorescent tubes were used, but these seemed to confuse the bees as they are flickering at mains frequency, which we cannot perceive, but bees are able to see. The problem was solved by arranging fluorescent tubes in banks of three, one wired to each phase of a three phase supply, so that steady illumination was achieved. This may have some bearing on what you saw. Regards Matthew J Allan Thornes of Windsor England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:42:19 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: FGMO - Revisited In-Reply-To: <199910131130.HAA29202@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 13 Oct 99, at 6:51, Richard Drutchas wrote: > David, just to clear up the facts, are the bees from the mating nucs > coming from apistan treated hives. I welcome the opportunity to explain our methods of making baby nucs, even without control nucs there are some interesting points worth considering. As some of you know we had to leave the Apistan in over the winter. (Please, don't pick that up and start explaining what a naughty boy I am, it's been thrashed to death!) so the bees were treated quite late with Apistan. This was removed early (here that's end of March) and we started making up nucs in mid May. Prior to that we had been using essential oils in sugar syrup, as previously discussed, and when natural nectar was available we transfered to FGMO as a treatment. Incidently that's written up on our web page if you want the full story. We make up baby nucs when needed by visiting a variety of hives and shaking bees, preferably young bees off brood frames, into a box after spraying them with sugar syrup with vanilla. These bees are then scooped up with a boat bailer, and a good handfull are dumped into a baby nuc. We have dozens of baby nucs, and the same method is used on all of them. Made up mid May and then stripped of bees mid to late Sept. Would it be possible for the syrup to have knocked off the mites? A few weeks later I noticed signs of Varroa in the roof of some cells, so I do know that early on we had some mites in them. Logically it would be impossible to get mite free baby nucs, and ultimately the usual population increase, as each one had lots of brood all summer long. As previously stated, on stripping them of bees we could find no signs of Varroa. Comments? ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 03:41:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: FGMO Revisited >Blane White wrote >>As for the lower populations in mating nucs that is what I >>would expect based on the biology involved i.e. these are small >>colonies that never raised much brood and had frequent breaks in >>broodrearing. Under these conditions varroa populations are unable >>to build up quickly due to the breaks in broodrearing and may even >>decline. I would expect the varroa populations to be considerably >>lower in the nucs than in full sized colonies in the same location. >Here is a classic. Drawing 'conclusions' without all the facts. Our >baby nucs have no breaks in brood, well perhaps a couple of days at >most. We work very hard with the logistics problem of keeping them >full and in brood all the time, as soon as a queen is ready to be >harvested a cell is ready to refill it. I've been waiting for Blane to reply, since the second writer did not seem to understand his comments, but he made his point and left it at that. I think it bears a little more detailed explanation: Mating nucs typically -- by their very nature -- have breaks in egg laying of a week or more every two week (minimum)cycle. This starts with a minimum one week waiting period until the queen from the first cell lays eggs. Then eggs are only laid for a few days to ensure the queen is laying, to wait for the slower ones to be mated, to ensure some replacement bees in the nuc, and then the queen is snatched away and replaced with a cell again. In my experience -- which is limited since we only ran a few hundred baby nucs for a season or two -- it is about 11 days in fact from cell insertion before one can be reasonably sure of seeing eggs in the best case. So, when I say a week without eggs at a time in my observations above, I am erring on the generous side. If the nuc cycle is 14 days, as it can be in good weather, then actually eggs are only being laid in each nuc for a few days every two weeks. In bad weather, often the cycle must extend to three weeks, and then the period without open brood is almost double. That in turn means that there are only cells being sealed for about 3 to 5 days out of each two week (minimum) cycle, and that is the only opportunity that the mites have to get into cells to hide and reproduce. All the rest of the time, including that long initial period, the mites are forced to live on the adult bees where they are most vulnerable to oil treatment, falling off, discovery by the bees, or natural death. Normally, in a hive with brood in all stages, adult varroa mites only spend a few days outside sealed brood cells on adult bees -- after their first emergence -- before entering their first new cell to lay eggs. Thereafter, they normally enter cells that are ready for sealing as quickly as they can find them after each emergence, without spending much time outside the safety of the cell. Thus it is clear that in a hive which only offers the occasion brief pportunity to enter cells, the varroa are forced to remain phoretic *much, much* more of the time that they would in a hive that has continuous egg laying, and that the mites are much more vulnerable. Now, I don't think anyone disputes that FGMO kills mites pretty much on contact under the right conditions. The dispute has always been whether the oil can be applied in a way that guarantees killing a sufficient number of mites -- with good reliability -- without killing or damaging the bees or causing other problems like diluting beeswax, etc. To date, with the methods of application so far tested, FGMO, has seemed to be product that appeared to work very well in some cases, but did not perform much at all in others. It seems obvious, from David's clear observations which he shared with us, that *something* set back the mites in his nucs quite significantly. It would have been interesting to have had a few nucs left untreated and carefully observed, and maybe David will do so this year, but it is not unreasonable to assume that at least two factors were at work here. Which one accounted for the decline of the mites is not proven. Possibly it was both, or possibly the interruptions in brood rearing set up the ideal conditions for the oil to work very well. What I get out of this is that FGMO *may* indeed be an ideal control agent for mating nucs, and that more testing is warranted. In order to understand better, I would like to know if varroa is *normally* a problem in untreated mating nucs, or if they cannot hold their own and are not normally treated by queen breeders. We do know that mating nucs must be kept free of v-mites, as must the cell builders, since varroa *can* parasitize queens as both pupae and adults. allen As Andy signed his articles: > (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:26:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AirCondHeatingCT@AOL.COM Subject: Request info on 99 CT honey crop. Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Be friends, Does anyone have any general information on the 99 honey crop for Connecticut? Quality/quanity. J. R. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:51:32 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone on the list know where I can get a update of following file??? ------------------------------------- NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS NO: 9 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTLURE AGRICILTURAL MARKETING SERVICE DATE: OCT. 9, 1998 FRUIT AND VEGETABLE DIVISION 201 5 SOUTH I ST STREET - RM 4 YAKIMA, WA 08003-2231 HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER, 1998 --------------------------------------- regards, in advance Jan. -- the orginal drone methode, fight the varroa chemistry free Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:16:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: attraction to light, more thoughts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Allan's post gives about Von Praagh's work gives another angle on John Henry's question that must be considered, but the consideration introduces more questions. It is likely that John Henry's fluorescent lights were not line- powered, or he would not have been using the other lamps. Battery operated fluorescent lights use an inverter, operating at an ultrasonic frequency to convert the battery voltage to the high voltage necessary to excite the fluorescent tube. Thus the flicker would be about 40 KHZ, which flicker would be smeared into constancy by the persistence of the phosphor. Also, Von Frisch teaches that bees' response to flicker is about ten times our own. We have no response above 100 Hz, so bees probably cannot respond beyond 1000 Hz. All this does nothing to prove my guess right, because the inverter in the fluorescent light is very likely a strong source of ultrasonic accoustical noise and AC magnetic field. Though many have, in the Archives, mentioned using a tape recorder, and I also consistently use one without incident, Item #23791 mentions bees attacking a tape recorder, which due to its bias oscillator, might also be a source of the same sort of accoustical and magnetic noise. Unfortunately, it is too cold here at night for bees to fly to try this experiment. If John Henry, or anyone else, would repeat the exposure of the bees to the cited light sources at night, but with one battery powered fluorecent light giving light, and another operating, but having its illumination obscured by an opaque material, or the same lamp first exposed and then obscured, it might be learned whether the bees went for the light or something else emitted by the battery powered fluorescent lamps. It would be advisable to use the same make and model of lamps as used by John Henry to assure a source of the same attraction. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:51:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: attraction to light, more thoughts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees are attracted to an incandescent lamp on my back porch, to a quartz halogen lamp on the side of my house, and to a compact fluorescent lamp on the stair landing. I put a scrap of plywood against the side of the hives so that from the hive entrance there is no line of sight to these lights. I find less dead bees under the lamps as a result. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:16:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AirCondHeatingCT@AOL.COM Subject: Looking for Conn Beekeeper members. Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee Friends, I would like to direct e-mail some questions to Conn. Beekeepers Assoc. members. Members please contact me directly. Thank you. J.R. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:02:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Importance of Longevity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Since there is little to do with the bees at present, I have taken to doing a little bit of reading, and what better book to read IMO than 'A Manual of Beekeeping' by E B Wedmore?. I came across the following paragraphs from which I quote as follows: 'Importance of Longevity. Longevity is obviously a characteristic of great value to the beekeeper, especially in an uncertain climate. Bees work within the hive generally for the first two weeks, and take up field duties after that period. Thus a bee with five weeks' effective life will only put in three weeks on outside duties, whereas bees with eight weeks' effective life cost no more to produce, but can put in six weeks' harvesting. Moreover, during an unexpected short flow one is much more likely to have harvesters available with the long-lived than the short-lived strain. Assesment of Longevity. A colony of long-lived bees may be readily distinguished from short-lived neighbours, because it will maintain a larger number of bees in relation to the size of its brood nest. One colony will maintain a hive full of bees on a brood nest of 30,000 where another may require 60,000. With the latter, on a prolonged break in the flow, the stores harvested just disappear, for it takes roughly a pound of food to raise 1,000 bees, or 20 lbs per week to maintain a brood nest of 60,000. Generally the long-lived strains have queens that are long lived but somewhat less prolific. Nevertheless the ideal bee is both prolific and long lived, maintaining a large supply of harvesters. The two virtues are by no means mutually exclusive.' My question on this is 'Why have I not come across any discussion on this particular attribute before?' It would appear on the face of it to be a most important consideration when it comes to selecting bees, since the longer lived bees can put in an additional three weeks harvesting. Can anybody shed any light on this for me please?. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:06:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J&S Maus Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity Brother Adam discussed this trait and bred it into the Buckfasts for the same reasons you alluded to. I suggest you read whatever material you can find regarding his selection of traits. Jim Maus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:15:13 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Queen- cell infestation with varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Allen, Research showed that varroa don't parasitize queens at the pupal stage. Only one cell was infected out of few hundreds-one thousand of queen cells. Even that single mite which entered the cell, did not lay eggs. Varroa mites have the ability to recognize the queen pupae and stay away from them. This can be explained by the post-capping period of queens. This period is very short and does not allow mites to develop. Therefore, mites developed their ability to stay away from queen cells. Medhat Nasr ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:58:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Longevity and varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Since sending my earlier message on Longevity, it occurred to me that there may be a varroa aspect to this (which could not have been seen by Wedmore). Since long lived bees have a lower ratio of brood to bees than the short lived varieties, does it not follow that since varroa thrive in brood but are vulnerable when on bees, that the long lived strains should be more tolerant to varroa?. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:02:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Francois Lariviere Subject: Hawaiian Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We're traveling to Hawaii next month and would like to meet with an island beekeeper or two. Anyone online willing to give a mainlander a visit to a tropical beeyard? As always Bee Healthy, Jean-Francois Lariviere President, BeeHealthy Farms 242 W. 104th St. Suite 1EF NY NY 10025 http://hometown.aol.com/BeeHealthy/beehive.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:08:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Longevity and varroa In-Reply-To: <199910172259.SAA26734@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tom Barrett wrote: > Since long lived bees have a lower ratio of brood to bees than the short lived > varieties, I think your reasoning goes awry when looking at the "ratio" of bees to brood. The ration of bees to brood may be different (more bees living longer, hence more bees to brood), but a difference affected by varroa would only be realized if there were less brood in a genetically long-lived breed than brood in a genetically short-lived breed. The "ratio" of bees to brood is a red herring. > does it not follow that since varroa thrive in brood but are > vulnerable when on bees, that the long lived strains should be more tolerant > to varroa?. This would only follow if long-lived breeds have less brood than short-lived breeds. Did Wedmore make this claim? Furthermore, one of the effects of varroa is lessening the life span of a bee, regardless if the bee has a diathesis for long or short life. I suspect varroa is an independent parameter regardless of a longevity gene (assuming a longevity gene exists - obviously I have not read Wedmore). Aaron Morris - thinking the more I learn, the less I know! - wondering if Wedmore is a second cousin to Furthermore. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:00:49 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan Tempelman wrote: > Anyone on the list know where I can get a update of following file??? > > ------------------------------------- > NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS NO: 9 > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTLURE > AGRICILTURAL MARKETING SERVICE DATE: OCT. 9, 1998 > FRUIT AND VEGETABLE DIVISION > 201 5 SOUTH I ST STREET - RM 4 > YAKIMA, WA 08003-2231 > HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER, 1998 > --------------------------------------- Since Jan first asked this question, I have been trying to find out how to get this publication. All efforts were in vain to find how to order it via the internet. I suppose one must write to the address given here, ask what the price is, and place an order. One would think that the US Department of Agriculture would be a bit more efficient than that, but it doesn't seem to be so. Ted Fischer Dexcter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:56:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Exchange of information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The ability of this list to transfer information from one beekeeper to others is just unlimited. Recently I was asked privately by a list member if I was in a position to say how any given weight of syrup fed to the bees translated into actual weight of stores in the hive. I was unable to do so. So I put the question to the list. Then Allen Dick weighed in with a very well thought out dissertation on the subject of how the bees convert syrup given into actual stores in the hive, and pointed out the many variables involved in what would appear at first sight to be a relatively simple activity. Next Chris Slade came in with a chilling question - how do you know that the stores you are giving the bees end up with the bees and not with your customers? I replied to Chris that I will ensure that there are no supers on the hive when I am feeding the bees etc etc. And then Chris came back with a stunningly simple means of determinng if the syrup given was going to the customers rather than to the bees as follows: >As an experiment in one hive try dying the syrup green or blue with food dye. > Then you will see how much gets transferred to next year's "honey" crop. A brilliant exchange of information! Thank you Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:45:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Jan Tempelman wrote: > >> Anyone on the list know where I can get a update of following file??? >> >> ------------------------------------- >> NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS NO: 9 > Since Jan first asked this question, I have been trying to find out how > to get this publication. All efforts were in vain to find how to order I've just been on the phone for 30 minutes. Went from west coast to east coast to west coast again and finally tracked down the source of this newsletter. It's written by Linda Cerstrate out of the Yakima office and as yet is not available on the net. However, she is sending me the most recent one and also sending me a subscription form to receive it monthly (not sure if there is a cost involved or not) of which I'll do. They are hoping to get some of the info available on the net before TOO long but don't hold your breath. In the meantime, I'll be happy to make it available to anyone via my web site. I'll have to think this one through as to the best way to do it without re-keying everything in but I'll figure something out. It appears Andy had more time than I do! -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois barry@birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:22:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: Re: NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The subscription cost for the newsletter below is $12.00 per year. This organization is partially funded by AMS, and partly by the state of Washington Dept Ag. It's sort of a hybrid and answers to several bosses. So every one has to agree on something new. They recently moved (new address and phone included below) and have been going through that, and WA, about a year ago, was considering pulling their (half of the) funding, so they have had that to contend with. They do far more crops than honey by the way, so there are always other fires to fight. Linda Verstate (the contact person there) is more than willing to help anyone interested. It is a good source of information, especially on the import side of the business. It also has pretty good updates on condidtions in several states and some regions of the U.S. They have also been listed in the Who's Who section of our web page for several years (and in the magazine), if you lose this. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine 1-800-289-7668 x3214 623 W. Liberty St. Medina OH 44256 NATIONAL HONEY MARKET NEWS U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTLURE AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE FRUIT AND VEGETABLE DIVISION 21 N. 1st Ave., Suite 224 YAKIMA, WA 98902-2663 509.575.2494 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:16:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Anti-Varroa Bottom Board Comments: To: Ruary Rudd I am not quite sure whether or not I commented to this bottom board feature. If you go to ABOUT.COM and check with the bb there you will find several comments about the screened bottom boards. The original idea came from central Europe and has been tested there for a number of years. Dr Malcolm Sandford's APIS letter explained this matter in detail. I saw the advantage and convenience of this method immediately and proceded to change all my bottom boards.Modifications were made to the original idea and proves to be an even greater advantage. The modification idea could also be extended and it is my only regret that the idea came to me only after all was done. The result of these type of boards is without compare as far as I am concerned. A) Adjustable ventilation of the hive. B) Ease of sticky stuff application to the bottom "Drawer" and repeated inspection. C) Ease of cleaning without disturbing the colony. D) Varroa extermination and count . (Varroas cannot return to the bees, the board itself has no influence or is a cause of varroa drop off). E) Except for large items or debris, the 1/8 fabric is of the right size . D) Bees appear not to be affected walking on the screen. Construction: Frame as per size of hivebox outside dimensions with 6 in extention in front as landing. Width of frame material : as you see fit, i.e. 1/1/4 to 1/1/2 inches. Apply ( staple) 1/8 galvanised metal hardware cloth over the entire frame dimension. A 3/4 by 3/8 frame on top of the frame (and screen) with an opening for bee entry of 5 inches or larger. The depth of the frame material is also a question of your judgement but should not be less the 1/1/2 inches below the sreen. A removable sliding flat rectangle of 1/4 plywood ( Outdoor)within a groove of the frame serves as ventilation adjustment and debris catcher. An additional item could be another sliding frame for the screen to remove larger item such as dead bees. The 3/8 hight of the entry serves as mouse entry prevention. Paint it all with a good enamel paint.( Paint stores carry returned paint and sell for bargain prices.) It helps if you have a friend with machinery or own it yourself. The only other change I made is the feature of the broadside entry for the bees.( 90 deg turned from the ordinary) For those who live in areas of the infestation of the small hive beetle such arrangement with an open screen , an elevated hive with an oilpan on the ground would at least catch some of the beetles dropping through the hive bottom sreen. Now you can take, modify or leave it. catfish ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:40:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Organization: Thom's Honeybees Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would find longevity to be very difficult to judge outside of a vacuum. Amount of foraging and field activity would cause this to be a difficult variable to isolate. A grower questioned me this year on the number of dead bees he saw on the dirt near my trailer containing pollination colonies. I had to go into a discussion of the bees working wear and tear and find some recently dead and show him recently emerged as a comparison. The wear and tear was apparent. Death can be caused by performing lots of work. I could breed a colony that lived a long time, was disease free, nice population, pretty brood pattern, but would not work at all. (I had one last year, had to feed 'em. 1 new queen later and they are great.) Thus, the longevity attribute may be skewed by more lazy bees. While longevity is important the best is a work/longevity ratio that will be more difficult to quantify. We know which ones are successful or not, longevity enters here but becomes more art than science from a practical standpoint. Other attributes can be quantified much easier, we measure hive deaths from disease and queens that don't lay, we can tell if a colony is aggressive, etc. Thom Bradley Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > > My question on this is 'Why have I not come across any discussion on this > particular attribute before?' > > It would appear on the face of it to be a most important consideration when > it comes to selecting bees, since the longer lived bees can put in an > additional three weeks harvesting. > > Can anybody shed any light on this for me please?. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:54:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: RCLynn@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wax melting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding rendering the old combs in a solar wax melter. I had the exact problem. The root of the problem are the old cast of coccoons or larval skins that line each and every cell in the old brood combs. They act like a sponge to keep the wax from draining down into the drip pan below. And I found that leaving them for days or weeks didn't improve the process. In the old days, I simply threw old combs away because I knew that I couldn't get any wax out of them. Later on, I found that I could get a fair amount of wax out of them by boiling them in a hot water wax press. I got an very old discarded aluminum cooking pot. I wrapped the old comb in burlap or cheesecloth covered with water and boiled it outside over a propane burner. When it starts to boil, it has a vice screw that pushes the melted combs down to the bottom of the pot and allows the wax to gather at the top. After 60 minutes I turn off the burner and let it all harden. When done I have hard wax on the top and the "slumgum" at the bottom of the pot. Hope that helps. Randy Lynn Greensboro, NC , USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:49:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Importance of longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, Beowulf Cooper discusses longevity in several places in The Honeybees of the British Isles: a good bedtime read, it will send you to sleep. To summarise it is a GOOD THING except possibly where the bees are susceptible to nosema or acarine (tracheal mite to our trans- Atlantic friends). As a keen student you must have a copy of Cooper within reach but if not let me know and I will dig out the ISBN no etc. If this thread continues I may quote a chunk. I agree with you about Wedmore. What other 70 year old book is a readable and as relevant? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: Dadant@dadant.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dadant Staff Organization: Dadant & Sons Inc Subject: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone in Bee-L had trouble with American Foulbrood this last year? I would like to collect the following information from you. Please send directly to class@dadant.com Number of colonies Infected colonies Treatment used this year and last for AFB Thank you Jerry -- Dadant & Sons Inc 51 South Second St Hamilton, IL 62341 Manufacturers and Suppliers of Beekeeping Equipment Publishers of American Bee Journal Manufacturers of Religious & Decorative Candles Phone 217-847-3324 Fax 217-847-3660 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:54:14 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: AFB, CONTROL W/O ANTI-BIOTICS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, The October issue of Bee Culture magazine has several interesting article on controlling American Foulbrood without using anti-biotics. The article that piqued my curiosity is titled "Prevention and Control of American Foulbrood Without use of Anti-biotics, by Camilla Juul Bradsgaard, and Henrik Hansen, of Denmark. I won't belabor the point here by repeating the very interesting article word for word, so please take the time to read it. Using a variation on an old technique, they were able to show good results, not that there was anything wrong with the original technique, but it was expanded upon. Richard Taylor has mentioned this in print many times. The colony is manipulated by shaking all of the bees out of the infected hive, it is then held in a box for three days in order to consume any honey in the bees stomachs, and then placed in a brand new hive on foundation. AFB is a brood disease so leaving the brood behind to be disposed of saves the bees, and gives them a new start. I like this method because it eliminates the use of anti-biotics that so many beekeepers use today whether they need it or not. I take anti-biotics when I need to, that is when I am sick, and that is the way it should be. I do not take anti-biotics when I am healthy. The question that is raised here is, why do beekeepers feed anti-biotics to healthy bees? This is a retorical question of course. They do it because they have; 1. Always done it that way 2. The old timer down the lane told them that is the way it should be done. 3. It is the easier softer way. 4. The magic bullet, Ad Infitum. Find out for yourself, read and study and learn from experts. There is nothing wrong with opintion as long as it is backed up with scientic study. Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," def.= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 10/19/99 09:25:03 Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," def.= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 10/19/99 09:54:14 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:26:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alex Shaw Subject: EU Suppliers Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I should like to compile a directory of at least one major supplier of beekeeping equipment, by mail order, in each EU country. Can you please send me the name and address of any that you deal with or may know of. J'ai l'intention de dresser un repertoire d'adresses de fournisseurs de materiel apicole par correspondance qui contienne au moins un fournisseur principal par pays de l'UE. Je vous saurais gre de m'envoyer les coordonnes de tous ceux avec qui vous traitez ou dont vous avez connaissance. Ich mochte ein Verzeichnis fur Bienenzuchtausrustung durch Mail-Order verfassen, das zumindest einen Hauptlieferanten pro EU-Land umfasst. Wurden Sie mir bitte den Namen und die Adresse von jedem Versandhaus zuschicken, mit dem Sie Geschafte machen, bzw das Sie kennen/von dem Sie gehort haben. Querria confeccionar un registro de proveedores por correo de material de apicultura. Este registro debe contener al menos un proveedor de cada pais de la UE. Podria Vd. enviarme las senas de todos los proveedores con quienes Vd. trata o de quienes tiene conocimiento. -- Regards Alex Shaw a.shaw@netcentral.co.uk 32 Albert Street Longton Stoke on Trent Staffs ST3 5ED Phone: +44 (0)1782 341066 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:05:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tom; Your subject bore great intrigue to me as an old scientist. Before writing my thoughts to you, I paused trying to ascertain the importance of the many variables, most of which are not controllable; hence, Wetmore's conjecture lacks science because of no established control for comparison. However, it makes no difference, because the reply you got from Thom Bradley would be exactly my feelings. Chris Slade mentioned the writings of Beowulf Cooper. I acquired his book about 40 years ago, and I don't believe that I ever finished reading it. Maybe my bed was too warm and comfortable. Try this example to test your thinking: Consider two bees, both exactly 5 weeks old. One became 5 weeks old on June 1st, and how much additional life can be expected of her compared a bee that became 5 weeks old on December 1st? or Two bees, both emerging from their cells on June 1st. However, it rained almost every day from June 20th to July 10th and bees could rarely forage. In the adjoining county, it was warm and sunny rain-free during the same period and bees were very busy foraging. Can you suggest a death date for either? I can't. I am in my 66th year of beekeeping. Many of my school classmates are dead and some have been dead quite some time. I think it is better that science can't answer this. Have a fine year! George Imirie in Maryland, founded by the Lord Calvert on 3/25/1634 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:24:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Queen- cell infestation with varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Research showed that varroa don't parasitize queens at the pupal > > stage. Only one cell was infected out of few hundreds-one thousand of > > queen cells. Even that single mite which entered the cell, did not lay eggs. > > Thanks for the reassurance, the cause of my concern was that Bernhard > Mobus says, in my copy of The New Varroa Handbook, on page 26/27 > under 'Damage to Queens': > > > Damage to Queens > Queen cells also can occasionally be invaded when, by early summer > and especially around swarming time, the varroa population is too > large for all female mites to find 'single accommodation' in a > shrinking brood nest. In commercial queen rearing the storter > colonies often have very little open brood. They are then given large > numbers of grafted queen cells to accept and/or finish. Mature varroa > mites then have little choice and will enter queen cells under these > conditions. Of course, due to the short period of development and > pupation, no varroa nymph will mature in a queen cell, but the damage > done by the adult mite and its immature brood is sufficient to render > the queen larva a runt and incapable of ever performing as a queen. > It is a pity that the work cited above did not examine the number of > ovarioles of damaged gueens; just as in drones, the hidden damage is > affecting the queen's quality, not its looks. Infestation by several > mites killed queens in sealed cella and up to 50% of cells did not > emerge at all. It is a comforting thought that varroa mites ' rarely > enter queen cells under natural circumstances. > > > I realise that this may be old information and your sources may be > newer, but that was what inspired my question. > > I must admit that this discussion is making me work -- and think. Thanks all > > allen > > ----- > See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. > BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm > Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ > or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:07:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen- cell infestation with varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently I have observed varroa mites in a sealed queen cell I opened to look into. What they were eating is beyond my skills to determine but they were alive and active. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:39:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Importance of Longevity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Boy oh Boy I am in the big league now!, having a discussion with George Imirie. George wrote: >Try this example to test your thinking: Consider two bees, both exactly 5 >weeks old. One became 5 weeks old on June 1st, and how much additional life >can be expected of her compared a bee that became 5 weeks old on December >1st? With respect George, the longevity of these two bees cannot be compared, since one is a 'summer' bee and the other is a 'winter' bee. The longevity of these two bees is vastly different since most winter bees survive until the spring to feed the early brood. >Two bees, both emerging from their cells on June 1st. However, it rained >almost every day from June 20th to July 10th and bees could rarely forage. >In the adjoining county, it was warm and sunny rain-free during the same >period and bees were very busy foraging. Can you suggest a death date for >either? I can't. Neither can I, and I doubt if anybody else can, and I fail to see how this adds to the debate either way. What I was seeking to develop was that on the one hand it appeared that longevity was a trait which was highly advantageous to the beekeeper, but yet there has been no discussion on it (unless as may be likely that I have missed some discussion). What Wedmore said was that a bee that lives for 8 weeks as compared to a bee that lives for 5 weeks will provide an extra 3 weeks foraging without cost to the hive or the beekeeper. This suggests to me at any rate, that everyone should be on the quest for the bees with the greatest longevity (all other things being equal). I then attempted to extrapolate bee longevity into varroa and here I definitely became unstuck and thanks to Aaron Morris and Ruary Rudd for pointing that out. But I will think some more on this once I have got a better handle on the mathematics of varroa vis a vis that of the bees. Having said all that, I still feel that it is better to have long lived bees, especially in the islands in which I live, where the season in short and uncertain, and when a flow comes along the long lived variety will statistically appear to have more bees for foraging. Thanks for bearing with me. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:31:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Everyone, Just some thoughts on this. I know Brother Adam discusses this in his book " Breeding the Honey Bee" but I don't have my copy here. The longevity of a worker appears to be directly linked to onset of foraging activity from what I have read so periods of poor foraging weather will result in workers living longer due to less foraging rather than genetics alone. I seem to recall reading that one study looked at mortality of foragers and concluded that foraging is dangerous duty and workers did not survive long after they began to forage. Many of the mortality factors were environmental i.e. had nothing to do with the potential longevity of the bee. One such factor is predation in the field. If this is indeed true ( note big if ) colonies that raised the most brood before the honey flow would be the ones with the greatest honey gathering potential since they would have the largest field force. This is exactly what most of our colony management is trying to accomplish - have the greatest field force available at the start of the nectar flow. Longevity might be good but I want a colony that will have the maximum number of workers available at the beginning of the nectar flow. Our flows here in Minnesota are usually fairly short and intense so this may not be the case in other areas. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:25:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>George wrote: >>Try this example to test your thinking: Consider two bees, both exactly 5 >>weeks old. One became 5 weeks old on June 1st, and how much additional life >>can be expected of her compared a bee that became 5 weeks old on December >>1st? >With respect George, the longevity of these two bees cannot be compared, >since one is a 'summer' bee and the other is a 'winter' bee. The longevity >of these two bees is vastly different since most winter bees survive until >the spring to feed the early brood. >>Two bees, both emerging from their cells on June 1st. However, it rained >>almost every day from June 20th to July 10th and bees could rarely forage. >>In the adjoining county, it was warm and sunny rain-free during the same >>period and bees were very busy foraging. Can you suggest a death date for >>either? I can't. >Neither can I, and I doubt if anybody else can, and I fail to see how this >adds to the debate either way. I think what George is getting at is how do you develop a metric on longevity when there are many factors that will skew the results. If you are going to try and breed a bee with an average lifespan that is, say, one week longer than our current stock what are you going to sacrifice? Your choices may be something like: Spends more time as a house bee. Does not forage as much. Carries less per foraging trip. etc. I understand what you are getting at. For example the reason to treat for Nosema is to increase the productive life of the worker bee. Maybe we need to think of bee longevity in the number of brood cycles the adult lives? Since many bees adjust brood production based on the expected need of adult workers. Living all of winter would only give the worker a 1. An adult that lives 2.1 brood cycles (on average) would be better than a 2.0. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:20:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be interesting to find out if longevity is genetic or behavioral. The reason from the behavioral standpoint is that if the bees live longer because they are doing less, as they do over winter, then there would be no gain. If they do less foraging, they would live longer. Do they, like I do, like to take it easier as they grow older? So young bees would be more vigorous. I seem to recall that bees wear out their wings after a time, so would longivity really help in foraging? >From a genetic point of view, if the queen lays equally in a long lived hive as a shorter lived hive, would crowding and swarming occur earlier and more often? Seems so. So there may be as many drawbacks as benefits to longevity in bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:12:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity In-Reply-To: <199910201112.HAA18697@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi to both George and Tom: Ok, George is correct about being able to predict for individual bees. However, we addressed this issue in some of our models, and the following does seem to work. Our models make reasonable (parallels real colonies in real field settings) if we use weather as an important driving variable. A lot of work was done on bee longevity in Europe. Marked bees were flown to feeders, both in outdoor and indoor settings. The bees all displayed a similar pattern. The longevity of a healthy bee seemed to be a function of the distance flown. I'd have to dig up my notes for the exact distance. After using up its alloted flight life (flew more than the distance limit), the bee dies. Now, you can look at it another way and estimate the number of trips and distances per trip. As I remember, we used 10-12 flight days as the average time that it took to add up to the flight distance limit. We then went to the literature and found that this number appears in several studies (many of which did not appear to be aware of the European studies). Ok, so if the weather is nice and food resources are available, we can expect our typical bee to live 10-12 days. If the weather is variable, the bee will live for a longer period (flies some days and not others). In the winter in northern climates, the bees don't forage, don't add up flight distance, and as such live forever (or at least until they start flying in the spring). Now that's what the model thinks. Any beekeeper knows that some die in the winter from old age, stress, nutritional shortfalls, mites, etc. But, for a healthy colony, the model fits better than one might expect. We can get reasonable approximations of population size for any time of the year by plugging in the general weather conditions for the area. So, George's Dec 1 bee will live a lot longer in the north, but not as long in the south as the July 1 bee. Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:37:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Varroa and strong hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A while back there was some discussion on what might cause the sudden collapse of strong hives from varroa when they appeared varroa free a month or so before the collapse. It was suggested that the mechanism is robbing by strong hives of varroa weakened and near collapse hives. The varroa that are transferred to the strong hive are also virus carriers which is the real cause of the sudden collapse. Another supposition which mirrors most parasite/host behavior is the cyclic nature of varroa infestation. You have massive colony kills and reduce or eliminate the varroa pool then get gradual buildup to another collapse. It appears both factors are at work in Maine this year. Stong, honeyladen, apparantly healthy hives are collapsing from varroa. It appears the feral pool is back since for the last two years many who did not see bees in their gardens after the 95-96 winter are reporting them. My guess is that what we are experiencing in Maine is similar to other northern States. Would like to hear if that is true. If so, it could be a bad spring. Bill Truesdell bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:53:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Varroa and strong hives In-Reply-To: <199910202230.SAA08448@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:37 PM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote: We have done some work in Montana. Our varroa infested hives collapsed in the fall after removal of the honey crop when outside temperatures dropped to 20 degrees F. Most of these colonies died within a week of each other. Bee populations were large, with plenty of food. Losses occurred in Oct., the few survivors (out of 48 colonies) dropped out before April. It appeared that the bees did not cluster for warmth. I talked to Ed Southwick just before he died from cancer. Ed said that he had observed the same behavior in his environmental chambers - the mite seemed to have altered the bees response to low temperatures. In our case, they did not cluster properly and they did not move to available food (and I mean they didn't creep up the frames they were on, I don't mean they didn't move between frames). So, some appeared to have starved within a fraction of an inch of readily available food in relatively mild temperatures. Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:13:13 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Varroa and strong hives (colonies) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. I think it is extremely important to consider that our observations and collected data do not necessarily infer or document a correlation between data sets, but may only reflect an association. That seems unscientific doesn't it? But take this example: In Jerry Bromenshenk's recent post he gives information about: 1. varroa infested colonies that collapsed after the removal of the honey crop when outside temperatures dropped to 20 degrees F., 2. most colonies died within a week of each other, 3. bee populations were large with plenty of food, 4. a few survivors dropped out before April 5. it appeared that the bees did not cluster for warmth 6. Dr. Southwick said the mite "appears" to have altered the bees response to low temperatures 7. Jerry says they did not move to available food 8. Some appeared to have starved within a fraction of an inch of available food stores in mild temperatures. I have documented the same clustering behaviors in colonies in the spring and summer. I have also had colonies with these behaviors abscond from hives in a mild fall at first frost. They demonstrated all of the last seven of Jerry's observations. But the colonies had a range of 3-10 percent HBTM and 50 to 150 varroa in mid-August when I treated them with Apistan. Its hard to believe that my observations were correlated with varroa when they "appeared" much more correlated with queen attractiveness and colony noise from queen introduction to colony demise. While the observed correlations may have been observed and statistical, our conclusions may not be accurate. The statistics may only be saying that an association exists not a correlation in terms of cause and effect. The same may be said about the observation of the presence of viruses causing colony collapse when associated with varroa. The data may be saying that viruses exist in colonies with varroa, at some level per bee or percent of population, but maybe this doesn't mean that viruses caused the colony collapse any more than varroa did, though both may have had an impact. Bill Truesdell says that colonies "appeared varroa free a month or so before their collapse. What does "appeared" mean? I haven't seen varroa in my colonies, even with extensive observations all summer, yet sticky boards revealed over 3400 mites in one colony in mid-August. He says "apparently healthy hives (colonies) collapse from varroa." What are healthy colonies? How can we define the characters that make up bee health? Can visual observation really tell us that a colony is healthy? Bill also says that "The varroa that are transferred to the strong hives are also virus carriers which is the real cause of the sudden collapse." I don't think that science has yet proven that this statement is true. To my way of thinking, having seen so many variables, the science has observed an association but not proven a correlation because it has not taken into account all the other health factors of a colony. And I am not really sure that you can find viruses in a few bees in colonies of thousands of individuals and conclude that the viruses found have caused the demise of the colony. Some might say this last statement can't be true by referring to human health scenarios. But I think we know much more about human health and contributing health factors than we do about the variations of health in bee colonies. I had the same reactions to recent quotes or references from Wedmore. Some of the statements referred to are opinions but do not necessarily reflect facts. I have made some of the same observations but would not reach the same conclusions that Wedmore seems to suggest. Maybe I ask too many questions. But I never was good at just looking at the surface and accepting an issue or idea. I always want to know what holds it up. It gives me more of an appreciation for the complexity of nature and being. Thanks, James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:58:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps I should stay quiet; however, I totally agree with Blane White's statements. It has not been shown that any race or even any stock has greater longevity than another. Apis longevity is predicated on several things including the NUMBER of PREDATORS of the colony area which includes MAN and his use of garden insecticides, the degree of mite infection (which are "pests" rather than disease), and all the apian diseases, notably PMS (parasitic mite syndrome, by Shimanuki), which are the infections than bees develop as a result of injury by being the host of both tracheal and Varroa mites, and lastly, the rarely identified, Nosema disease which is the MOST WIDESPREAD of ALL adult bee diseases. All of the above can be materially reduced or controlled by a beekeeper who has a definite program of hygienic care for his bees. If this is done, the bees can develop a large population of foraging bees by nectar time. I will say here that there are places, like my central Maryland, who have a MAIN nectar flow, intense and short duration, EARLY, e.g., late April and May. I use the Carniolan race to provide me with a large foraging population by late April. Brother Adam, Dr. Friedrich Ruttner, and "our own" Steve Taber long ago declared that Carniolans were ahead of all other races of bees in early spring build up. Of course, a good bee would turn down help from a knowledgeable beekeeper who will start stimulating brood rearing by feeding 1:1 sugar syrup in February + having pollen substitutes available in the colony + always having a very young queen who can, NOT ONLY, lay many eggs, but produce enough queen pheromone to "glue" this huge population of worker bees together as a single functioning unit WITHOUT SWARMING! Rather than spending time and money trying to find a stock of bees that "supposedly" has increased longevity, a beekeeper would be far better off studying certain often overlooked subjects like BEE BEHAVIOR, the multi-factions of certain pheromones notably 9-ODA and 9-HDA, swarm prevention, and the proper TIME to use the necessary hygienic chemicals, e.g., menthol, Apistan, and Fumidil-B. I will end with a challenging thought for all: TIMES CHANGE THINGS and YOU MUST CHANGE WITH THE TIMES OR BE LEFT BEHIND. Examples known to all: Twenty years ago, gardens were hoed for weed control, but today we have NO-TILL seed. Twenty years ago there were few computers, but today many homes have a computer. Twenty years ago, there was a carburetor on your car, today's new cars have fuel injection. Twenty years ago a diseased kidney, heart, or liver was your death notice, but today we can get organ transplants. Twenty years ago, there were no tracheal or Varroa mites in the U S, but now they are in 49 states and about 90% of the area of the country. Twenty years ago there were no AHB, "killer" bees, in the U S, but today they are in 5 states. Twenty years ago, most people had been stung by a bee and never heard of the word "allergic," but today, Hollywood movies have made the American public badly frightened about a single bee sting and even your next door neighbor might reason that they too are allergic if they have to vote for a BEE-FREE zoning ordinance in your county. My 66 years of beekeeping have been wonderful FUN, and I look forward to the future even though it means I have to KEEP LEARNING to stay ahead of CHANGE. Tom Barrett: I hope you see this in Ireland George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:04:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: amy thomson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's coming close to the time of year when my bees will be left to put their tiny little feet up for the winter. I was wondering what you experienced beekeepers do to put your tools to bed for the winter? How do I clean my veil, and get the propolis and grunge off of my gloves? Should I oil or sharpen anything? Do I need to do anything to the smoker? Many thanks, Amy Thomson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:45:39 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Haberl Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I would like to repost the following article: >>> Posting number 21211, dated 20 Feb 1998 15:35:15 Quotation: Survivorship of foraging honey bees P.K. Visscher and R. Dukas Insectes Sociaux 44: 1-5, 1997 Summary We recorded lifetime foraging activity and survivorship of individual honey bees foraging under natural settings. Bees experienced a constant probability of death per unit time away from the colony. This leads to a log-linear survivorship curve of type II. Most bees died before reaching senescence. The patterns of survivorship are likely to influence the evolution of foraging behavior, and this results suggest that age-independent factors such as predation could play a strong role in selection of foraging range and other parameters. Our result is contrary to the pattern expected if survivorship of individual honey bee foragers is determined largely by a limited lifetime budget of energy expenditure, which would imply a low probability of mortality early in a bee's foraging life, followed by a sharp increase in mortality late in life, when either physiological or mechanical wear cause death. End of quotation Part of one of their figures: The observed distribution of total lifetime foraging duration for 33 bees _________ 7 | | | | | |_________ Bees 6 | | | | | | | | | | dying 5 | | | | | | | | | | per 4 | | | | | | | | | | 10 hr 3 | | | | | | | | | |_________ inter- 2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | |______________ val 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 Hours of foraging -- Michael Haberl haberl@mailer.uni-marburg.de http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~haberl/ http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~ag-biene/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:34:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Importance of Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Knowing George Imerie, it was obvious to me when he wrote, "Of course, a good bee would turn down help from a knowledgeable beekeeper who will start stimulating brood rearing by feeding 1:1 sugar syrup in February + having pollen", that he meant to say "a good bee would NOT turn down help..." Aaron Morris - thinking sometimes the mind works faster than the fingers! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:33:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael Bassett Subject: Re: Request info on 99 CT honey crop. On Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:26:24 EDT, AirCondHeatingCT@AOL.COM wrote: >Hello Be friends, >Does anyone have any general information on the 99 honey crop for >Connecticut? Quality/quanity. > >J. R. I have about 1/3 of my hives in northern Conn. the exhisting hives were down appx 25%. 17 new hives that I started produced 300lbs of honey. except that I have been feeding them since aug 15 and still continue to do so because they still are not heavy enough for winter. also their was so little honey coming in most of my honey supras were never removed as they needed the honey to survive, so most of these hives are 3 to 4 supras deep. If I was doing it for a living I'd be looking for some of those low interest government loans!!! this year. in a previous posting you were looking for info on the Conn beekepers organization, if you ever find out how to contact them please let me know also. thanks mike reply to Does anyone have any general information on the 99 honey crop for Connecticut? Quality/quanity ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:42:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Varroa and strong hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Bill and everyone, Here in the upper midwest ( Minnesota USA ) there have been major varroa problems this late summer and fall. Some beekeepers have lost a lot of colonies and others managed to rescue them from the brink but the common link in these cases is not a feral honey bee population but a fluvalinate ( Apistan ) resistant varroa population. This was confirmed here last fall in a few beekeeping outfits but is much more widespread this year. Beekeepers have been able to turn this around with the coumaphos strips but of course you need to treat in time or the colony will die after you kill the varroa. Many colonies died here at much warmer temperatures than in Jerry's observations but we are dealing with overwelming varroa populations too. I have seen colonies literally crawling with varroa 3 to 4 weeks after new apistan strips were placed in them. Have also seen bottomboards with thousands of dead mites a few weeks after coumaphos strips were placed in the colonies. A word to the wise if you treat or treated with apistan do a post treatment varroa check to make sure it actually worked. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:03:46 +0000 Reply-To: beeman@zbee.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steven Turner Organization: Beenet UK Subject: The National Honey Show in London this November 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello to all Beekeepers world wide, Please come to The National Honey Show this November in England - With International classes. - A World Class Honey Show - Lecture programme - Traders Held in London, Kensington, England On the 11th, 12th & 13th November 1999. Meet other Beekeepers from round the world. Much more than a honey show. Need more information http://www.honeyshow.co.uk Or email: nathon@zbee.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:23:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Attila31@AOL.COM Subject: Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody out there know how varroa finds a bee? What is the physical approach of the varroa the way it finds the bees? Ticks are sensing CO 2 released by the host. Did anybody did any test on this phenomena? Attila