From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 13 07:12:58 2000 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08324 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02316 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200002131212.HAA02316@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:56 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9911A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 118817 Lines: 2613 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:36:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Subject: Re: formic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ivan McGill wrote: > > Has anyone done any studies or know of why queen failures are so high when > formic acid is used? > Hi Ivan, I do not know of any real studies that have been completed in regards to the use of formic acid and corresponding Queen failure. However, it is VERY predictable that formic acid would interfere with the queens pheromones.All 200 pheromones known in a beehive are organic acids. Formic acid is the strongest known organic acid , therefore you could expect some ion exchange to take place.What level of change would be due to environmental variables. ( temp - humidity ) One would have to look at the queens ability to produce a high level of pheromones. A weak queen would be more likely to have a problem with hive control. Studies would have to take into account older queens ( one year ) verses new queens. Quality of queen breeding is also a factor. Using formic acid is up to the beekeeper. There are many levels in the profession. Some people would not be able to see a change in behavior. Others would detect some change in overall hive behavior. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:15:45 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: formic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Ivan, In our experiments with formic acid, we found that 85% formic acid may interfere with the pheromones in the bee hives and will cause increased agressive behaviour of workers against their queens. This will lead to killing up to 50% of their queens. We also found that 85% of formic acid can kill eggs and young larvae. As a result, it will be difficult for the colony to raise queens to replace the killed ones. Using the 65% formic acid is less harmful to queens and workers. It will not effect queens and drones longevity and performance as long as the acid applied at the right time of the year and within the recommended temperature range. In our studies, we also found that the formic acid will kill workers and queens infested with tracheal mites more radially than healthy ones. We have been using formic acid (65%) single application pad in spring for tracheal mite and varroa mite control in Ontario for the last 6 years with no reported queen failures or weak colonies. Best Regards. Medhat Nasr Medhat Nasr, Ph.D. Research Scientist, Ontario Beekeepers' Association Dept. Environmental Biology University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1 Tel: (519) 824-4120 Fax:(519)837-0442 e-mail: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:44:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Use of queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After a search of past messages, I have found opposing views on whether queen excluders are advisable in producing honey for extraction. Some think they operate as honey excluders, and others insist that there is no better method of producing honey. I could not find any references concerning how to get the bees to readily move through the excluder. I am primarily a comb honey producer, so know something about crowding bees into a compact brood nest and the advantage of a sealed semi-circle of honey above the brood. I do not use queen excluders for either my Ross Round(tm) or cut comb production and have very little queen activity above the brood nest. In the year 2000 I want to use queen excluders while producing honey for extraction and would appreciate some advice. When I have tried using excluders in the past at least 50% of my hives have swarmed and no more than 10% readily passed through the excluder to draw comb. The remaining percentage first filled the brood nest almost to capacity and only then started drawing comb above the excluder. When using excluders for producing honey for extraction: 1. Is having drawn frames above the excluder sufficient, by itself, to attract the bees through? 2. Is it best to first insert the excluder between two brood boxes (being certain the queen is in the lower box) and move the brood box above the excluder down when the bees are readily going through the excluder? 3. Is it best to give the bees a separate entrance/exit above the excluder? If so, should this be done in addition to item 2, above? I will appreciate any advice and discussion. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:39:08 -0500 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Use of queen excluders In-Reply-To: <199911012135.QAA01252@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Nov 99, at 9:44, Lloyd Spear wrote: > After a search of past messages, I have found opposing views on whether > queen excluders are advisable in producing honey for extraction. Some > think they operate as honey excluders, and others insist that there is no > better method of producing honey. I could not find any references > concerning how to get the bees to readily move through the excluder. We used to have mixed feelings about queen excluders until this year when we made effort to settle it one way or the other. In the past we've been dependant on a cap of honey over the brood to keep the queen down and prevent brood in honey supers, but this year that was ineffectual. In the past I was taught that the queen won't go over honey to lay eggs, and that a split brood nest never happens. We'll that statement is incorrect. If you use drone brood foundation in the honey supers, you'll be suprised how quickly the queen goes over honey to lay up that drawn foundation. Useful for Varroa traps! On adding either foundation or drawn comb, we leave the excluders off for two days for drawn, and slightly longer for foundation. This, especially if you spray a little sugar syrup over the foundation, tempts the bees to come up and start work drawing the cells out. Once they're up, then add a queen excluder and they'll stay up. Needless to say, if the bees don't need the space, then they'll tend to ignore the upper supers even to plugging up the brood area with honey stores. In previous years we've had a problem with our extracting filters clogging quickly, we suspect with pollen. This year using excluders we prevented this problem, it kept the amount of pollen in the upper supers to a minimum. So I will in future return to our previous position, and will not provide top entrances until the honey season has finished. Considering all of our facts we've decided on the following:- Mid size supers for less weight, early addition to each hive, fitted with drone foundation, faster extracting, faster drawing, and the possibility of Varroa traps if needed, plus a queen excluder to ensure cleaner honey. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Beekeeping Jacket **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:20:43 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Eyre mentions bees storing pollen above a brood nest and queen excluders. I have noted this on numerous occasions with poor queens whose bees exhibit what I've called aberrant behaviors in previous posts. My observations suggest that they only do this when there is a lack of a queen retinue and thus a lack of queen pheromones. Bees will store one to three combs of pollen immediately above the center of the brood rearing area above the excluder, and place almost none below or to the sides of the brood rearing area. I have also observed them to store a deep super of honey below the brood rearing area under the same circumstances. It has been my observation that the location of where bees store pollen and honey are traits that are subject to stock selection, like pollen and nectar hoarding, the size of the spring cluster, cluster density at 55 F., queen attractiveness and other bee behaviors, provided nutrition and other necessities for a colony are at the optimum. James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:58:24 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear asks about the use of excluders during the production of extracted honey. I have done this for the past 20 years and use the following techniques: 1. I store my supers wet over the winter and use them as bait combs in the spring placing them on top of the excluder which is placed on top of the second deep brood nest (3rd western). The bees are baited up through the excluder by the honey residue in the wet extracting super. 2. I don't use combs of brood as bait combs since I began using miticides in my brood nest. 3. If I'm using wood wrapped excluders, I remove a piece of wood 1.5 inches long from the center of one end of the rim, down to the metal excluder material (on one side of the end only), to use as a bee entrance above the excluder when it is in place on the hive. 4. If I'm using metal wrapped excluders I set the excluder back 1 to 1.25 inches from the front of the hive. This allows bees to go both up and down around the end of the excluder without going through the excluder. (I have also done this with wood wrapped excluders successfully.) Brood nest bees usually go up through the excluder readily. I don't know how easy it is for them since I've never asked them. I've never known a queen to go around the end of an excluder when used in this fashion. Bees often quit using the lower hive entrance in favor of this entrance between the brood nest and honey storage area. Roy Thurber used to use a piece of 5 mesh hardware cloth cut approximately 10 x 12 inches which he placed above the center of the second brood nest as an excluder with good results. Most bee nests I've seen in walls and trees have had the hive entrance situated so that brood rearing is below the entrance with honey storage above. 5. When the bees have stored nectar in the center six western combs in the first extracting super, the excluder can be removed and the queen won't usually move up through this first super to lay in an empty super that may be above. This first super now acts as an excluder. Or you can leave the excluder on the hive until you remove the honey in the fall but you get more burr comb on the excluder with this method. Best wishes, James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:24:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gerald L Barbor Subject: Re: Use of queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used queen excluders on almost all hives for extracted honey and have made these observations; 1. When placing excluders on all hives over the brood nest, less that half of the hives will readily pass through and it doesn't sem to matter what is over the excluder. Yes, they will swarm rather than go through. 2. As you suggest, placing some brood over the excluder encourages the bees to pass through, so I routinely do that now. Once the bees are accustomed to passing through , one can move the excluder up over the brood nest. I routinely use a hive body and a medium as a brood nest and as soon as there are eggs in the medium I place the QE under it for a week or so, then put it on top of the medium. Jerry in PA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:49:34 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: AFB, CONTROL W/O ANTI-BIOTICS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Harry wrote: <> Harry, you are a master of the understatement! (The understatement is my favorite from of emphasis) Britain is not the only place that requires such drastic action. Many beekeepers and agencies require destroying the bees when good scientific studies have been done to prove this unnecessary. AFB is a brood disease, not a bee disease. ( Flame suit on, yes! I do know about spores. ) This shows the classic difference between knowledge and wisdom. <> Not having enough time is often given as the reason for destroying the bees. Surely a beekeepers time is an all too realistic value, and can not be ignored. Commercial beekeepers work very long hours. I question how much time is saved by killing bees and then burning the hive contents? Why not just give them a new hive on foundation, remove the old hive and burn it. It was to be burned anyway, so what is lost here? The bees are saved, and in a new hive, the offending material is rightly destroyed, so what am I missing here? Risking redundancy, I point to the study reported in Bee Culture that I posted here to begin this thread. <> Harry, I could not have said it better myself! Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," def.= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 10/30/99 09:49:34 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:58:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Duane Bajema Subject: Unidentified "hornets" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was describing beekeeping to a student who lives in central Iowa, and she asked some very good questions about bees, but she described the following situation to me that I could not explain. Can anyone help me out? "I lived on a farm in central Iowa and there were these HUGE wasps or hornets (not sure) that had ENORMOUS "stingers" or maybe they were just tails - about 3 - 5 inches long. I think they used them to drill into tree trunks and the like. Any idea what these were or why they did that? Someone said that they might be Cecada killers but I somewhat doubt that because they were never around cecadas." Duane H. Bajema, Ph.D. Dordt College Agriculture Department Sioux Center, Iowa 51250 Office: 712/722-6275 FAX: 712/722-1185 Bajema@Dordt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2099 21:48:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: awcannon Subject: Re: Use of queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd Spear To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:44 PM Subject: Use of queen excluders if you have difficulty in bees drawing out comb above the qx, then put the box with the unddrawn comb above the excluder then a feeder and give them a gall of syrup. that should do the trick. i use commercial brood boxes and they do me a treat. i even ended up with 11 brood combs of honey this year, which gives me food to give the bees for the winter. awcannon@globalnet.co.uk > Lloyd > Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. > www.rossrounds.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Unidentified "hornets" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duane Bajema wrote (and quoted someone who said): > "I lived on a farm in central Iowa and there were these HUGE wasps or hornets (not sure) that had ENORMOUS "stingers" or maybe they were just tails - about 3 - 5 inches long. I think they used them to drill into tree trunks and the like. Any idea what these were or why they did that? Someone said that they might be Cecada killers but I somewhat doubt that because they were never around cecadas." Ichneumon "flies" are slender wasps with long ovipositors. The ones with the really long ovipositors "drill" into wood (often where dead wood is already damaged by breaking or by woodpecker work) and deposit an egg in the tunnel made by a grub. The ichneumon's larva is a parasite on the grub. The "drilling" process makes a fascinating show. Cicada killers look (to me) like European hornets (like huge yellowjackets) and are solitary, ground-nesting wasps, digging a tunnel in hard soil. I look for the tunnels on the packed dirt of baseball infields and on clay tennis courts. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:23:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ROBERT BOSCHMAN Organization: @Home Network Member Subject: Re: Unidentified "hornets" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to the naturalist, Annie Dillard, there are over 100,000 species of parasitic wasps, some of which are parasitic to the fifth order, meaning that they live off other parasitic wasps. The ichneumon deposits her eggs "in the body tissues of caterpillars," but if she cannot do this efficiently or in a timely fashion, says Dillard (citing the entomologist Teale), she is consumed by her own larva. Rather than have this happen, she will sometimes "scatter [her] eggs while in flight." Robert Boschman Boschman Hughes Apiaries Saskatoon, SK Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:18:12 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Use of queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have followed all this discussion about queen excluders, and have written about this before (see archives: subject=excluders, with author=tvf). The point I wish to emphasize here is that swarming is really unrelated to the presence or absence of excluders. To use excluders rightly, the queen(s) should be young (best with newly requeened colonies), the brood nest should be "boiling" with bees and a good honey flow should be starting. Then above the excluder you can give one super with foundation (plastic works fine) or with drawn comb, and watch the progress for a couple weeks. When they start working it, give another two supers on top. Repeat as necessary as long as the flow continues. The only caution is that a super of foundation usually is not drawn when placed four or five supers above the excluder, and maybe that is because by then the flow is often slowing. I have never put brood above the excluder (unless setting up two-queen units) and never fed syrup when supers were in place. The latter is dangerous, possibly allowing excess syrup to be stored in the newly drawn comb, and thus adulterating the honey. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:56:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Pehling Subject: Re: Unidentified "hornets" In-Reply-To: <199911021445.JAA22132@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Tim Sterrett wrote: > Ichneumon "flies" are slender wasps with long ovipositors. The ones with the really long ovipositors "drill" into wood (often where dead wood is already damaged by breaking or by woodpecker work) and deposit an egg in the tunnel made by a grub. The ichneumon's larva is a parasite on the grub. > The "drilling" process makes a fascinating show. > Cicada killers look (to me) like European hornets (like huge yellowjackets) and are solitary, ground-nesting wasps, digging a tunnel in hard soil. I look for the tunnels on the packed dirt of baseball infields and on clay tennis courts. =========================== Another possiblity is one of the Siricid sawflies. There are actually Hymenoptera and many (most?) of them have long ovipositors for laying eggs in dead wood. The ovipositors on these species are generally less than the length of the body. Ichneumonids often parasitize the wood-eating larvae. cheers, Dave Pehling ============================================ | W.S.U. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION-SNOHOMISH CO. | | 600 128TH ST. S.E. | | EVERETT, WA. 98208 U.S.A. | | PHONE - (425)338-2400 | | FAX - (425)338-3994 | | EMAIL pehling@wsu.edu | ============================================ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Queen excluders In-Reply-To: <199911020436.XAA12239@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Nov 99, at 20:20, JamesCBach wrote: > David Eyre mentions bees storing pollen above a brood nest and queen > excluders. > > I have noted this on numerous occasions with poor queens whose bees > exhibit what I've called aberrant behaviors in previous posts. My > observations suggest that they only do this when there is a lack of a > queen retinue and thus a lack of queen pheromones. This was certainly not the case! What I found was by accident and certainly not frames of pollen, and I will add after 50 years of keeping bees I have never seen what James describes. Looking for light honey by shining a bright light through the back of capped honey, I noticed a small number of dark cells. Curious, I uncapped some to find pollen in a variety of colours, leading me to think this was stored over a period of time. This year we used queen excluders on our honey hives and during our annual search for light honey couldn't find any pollen at all. So should I 'conclude' from this 'observation' that top entrances and the lack of queen excluders lead to pollen in the honey supers? I certainly believe so! ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Beekeeping Jacket **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:00:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: Unidentified "hornets" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "I lived on a farm in central Iowa and there were these HUGE wasps or hornets (not sure) that had ENORMOUS "stingers" or maybe they were just tails - about 3 - 5 inches long. I think they used them to drill into tree trunks and the like. Any idea what these were or why they did that? Someone said that they might be Cecada killers but I somewhat doubt that because they were never around cecadas." The superfamily Ichneumonoidea is widespread and contains members with very long ovipositors. Also, fig wasps have good sized ovipositors... Might be one or the other. Carol Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:32:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Exposed Colony in Tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello, > I have heard about his but never saw one. I received a call last week > from a homeowner stating he had a beehive in his tree. I assumed he was > talking about a hollow tree. He said they were 20 ft off the ground > hanging from a branch. At this point I thought wasps. I told him that is > was probably a wasp or hornet nest. He disagreed saying they were > confirmed by someone else to be honeybees. My curiosity got the best of > me so I went over. Sure enough, there was a large colony hanging from a > branch of a spruce tree. He told me they showed up in June, but now he > was worried about them. I climbed up the tree part way and took some > photos. I told him there wasn't much I could do now (November). The > branches of the tree seem to be protecting them somewhat and possibly they > may survive the winter. I know disrupting them would probably be just as > harmful. I told him he should have called sooner. He the hinted to > something I still find humorous. He said he was curious as to how much > the bees were worth (to him?). I was about to explain the benefits of > having bees around, but somehow I think he was just thinking dollars. > > I know this happens occasionally, but I have never witnessed before. I > don't know what could have made the bees stay at this location rather than > finding a more suitable home. They never cease to amaze me. > > BTW, I scanned the photos, but I do not have a website. As much as I would > like to share these with everyone on the list, getting individual requests > would be unpractical. If someone would like to put them in their bee > related site, where anyone that would like to can view them, I will be > happy to send them. Please contact me away from the list. I will then > post a message as to where they can be found. > > Ron Bogansky > Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:23:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" Subject: Re. Queen Excluders (aka Honey Excluders) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two questions ! Is the small to moderate amount of local pollen remaining in cloth -filtered extracted honey in any way considered harmful or undesirable ? When marketed as such (local) thru health-food outlets it seems preferred by those who purchase same and are concerned regarding pollen-induced allergies. If harvest (pulling) is delayed until this time of year (in southern New England) is it not true that any small amout of brood previousely in the bottom super will have hatched and the otherwise persistant nurse bees returned to the brood chambers ? It seems otherwise that the girations required to get the bees to willingly and properly function in the presence of the excluder to be quite labor intensive when multiple outyards are concerned, Reactiions and answers to this post eagerly sought and welcomed Zodiac Farms - Westport, MA. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:29:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Re: Exposed Colony in Tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! You may review Ron's photos here: http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/Ronswarm.html Herb/Norma Holly-B Apiary P.O. Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ----- Original Message ----- From: BOGANSKY,RONALD J. To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 1:32 PM Subject: Exposed Colony in Tree ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:43:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Upward ventilation/downward ventilation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In this area a common successful configuration for winter hive ventilation comprises three elements: 1. A reduced entrance below. 2. An auger hole at intermediate height. 3. A shavings box on top, with the top of the shavings exposed to outside air under the outer cover. The usual reason cited for this configuration is "upward ventilation", a need mentioned by Langstroth, and many since. I've noticed that very little air filters through shavings, but the shavings are damp on top, and dry below nearest the bees. Similarly, a shavings pile in our yard is always wettest just below the plastic covering on top, and wet shavings deep within the pile can be dried by opening the cover on fair days and closing it at night. Is the shaving box ventilating the hive, or is it really wicking out water, which then either evaporates or sublimes from the top of the shavings, with little actual passage of air? Water vapor is lighter than air and would collect in the top of the hive, where it might permeate the shavings. Similarly, is the CO2 produced by the bees' metabolism, being heavier than air, simply sinking and flowing out the entrance, replacement fresh air thus being drawn in through the auger hole? Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:52:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Massachusetts Worcester County Beekeepers Association-100th Anniversary Celebration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Massachusetts Worcester County Beekeepers Association-100th Anniversary Celebration This article may be viewed here: http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/mass.html Herb/Norma Holly-B Apiary P.O. Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:20:17 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Exposed Colony in Tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These are interesting photographs. Thanks for sharing them. I had a similar experience this year, which was the first time I used swarm traps. The traps generally worked as expected, but there were two swarms that settled on the outside, rather than within, the traps. These were in my most distant locations, and by the time I got to them they had built several combs hanging on the bottom of the traps. Both honey and brood were already present - so my lesson was to tend swarm traps more diligently! Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:49:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: More on ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good point on the diffusion of CO2 from the bees through the top, for any CO2 in solution in the air inside the hive. Any CO2 in excess of that might come out of solution. I have no data CO2 solubility in air at any temperature. As to what floats and what sinks, according to the CRC Handbook, at 0 degrees C, air density is 1.17 g/l, and of CO2, 1.97 g/l. Were the CO2 to be warmed to +40 C its density would drop to about 273/313 times 1.97, or 1.72 g/l. Were the air to be cooled to -40 C, its density would rise to 273/233 times 1.17, or about 1.37 g/l. So undissolved CO2 probably sinks at all reasonable temperatures. This based on the gas law, PV=nRT, and is approximate because the gases are probably not perfect. So it seems that dissolved CO2 will diffuse any way it can, and any excess falls down and goes out by gravity. What comforts me, I hope justifiably, is that with the right configuration the removal of gaseous waste is passive, and conceivably done with little heat loss. All this leaves me pondering the idea that started the thought, whether there is an optimal height for locating the auger holes I am about to bore. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:37:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > This year we used queen excluders on our honey hives and during our > annual search for light honey couldn't find any pollen at all. > So should I 'conclude' from this 'observation' that top entrances > and the lack of queen excluders lead to pollen in the honey supers? I > certainly believe so! We *always* use queen excluders, have top entrances and with reference to the original post, we don't have any problem with bees filling supers above the excluder. They ignore the excluder and I prefer honey supers that don't have any previous brood---it deters wax moth. And who wants brood remnants in their honey? Anyhow, having said that we always use excluders, I have found the odd frame with a few cells of pollen UNDER the honey. I always wondered what the bees were thinking..:) Cheers, Ian Watson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: darn@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Use of queen excluders In-Reply-To: <199911012136.QAA01264@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We have used excluders on all our hives for many years, both for extracted honey and cut comb. 1 Bees don't willingly go through two barriers. You have trouble if you put on an excluder and a box of foundation and you have trouble if you put on an excluder above a brood chamber that is jammed with honey. We put our extracting supers on fairly early in the season, they have residual honey from last year and there is very little problem with bees refusing to go through the excluder. 2 When making cut comb we started them with a wet extracting super over the excluder. When the super was nearly ready to take we put the comb honey super between it and the excluder. This usually occurred at the end of the dandelion flow and just before the alfalfa and canola. They seemed willing to draw comb above the excluder at this time. 3 We have tried using excluders with top entrances. It doesn't seem to make much difference, although there is then some pollen stored above the excluders. 4 We extract two or three times during our main flow. ( We have a problem with the canola honey granulating in the combs if left on very long). The advantage to excluders is that you can extract honey during the flow without worrying about losing your queen. This enables you to operate with a much smaller inventory of supers and a smaller capacity extracting outfit. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:05:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Subject: Varroa mite pheromes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron Morris wrote: However, Harbo has done some impressive experiments = showing how powerful an attractant is drone brood, so perhaps there would be a = massive immigration. This sounds to me as if the drone brood emits a pheromone which attracts = the Varroa mite. If this pheromone could be isolated and mass produced = it suggests two methods of attacking Varroa infestation: 1) Placement of pheromone bait in locations within the hive to draw = the mites away from the brood frames. 2) Placement of the pheromone throughout the hive so as to totally = confuse the mites in their quest for host brood. Any ideas along this line folks? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:46:15 -0700 Reply-To: flightdeck1@earthlinkREMOVETHIS.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Exposed Colony in Tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The sight of a fully exposed hive seems somewhat tropical to believe bees could survive so exposed. This summer ('99) I was called out for some thirty-plus wild hive removals. Bees were making homes of every kind of conceivable space left un-insulated around a house, garage or barn. Three(3!) turned out where the entire hive was built outside of the house. All three incidents were strikingly similar and had proper cracks allowing access to the roof. Bees weren't just running out of inside-building space and continuing by way of the 'would-be' hive entrance. Instead it looked as if the swarms just couldn't be convinced to find their way inside. Perhaps a stubborn queen couldn't be moved the last few inches. Maybe the queen(s) started laying during the time she was part of a 'swarm'. All three had the findings of a perfectly good bee home just inches away from their exposed cluster. Two of those three are now living happily in a Langstroth hive - the third was too dangerous to cut out. Colorado (USA) weather in NO way lends itself to bees surviving fully exposed past September so it's amazing to see these anomalies from a beekeeping perspective. Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, CO USA Earthling Bees, Inc. - "Take Me To Your Feeder" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:36:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Exposed Colony in Tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron, Just wonderful! Thank you for sending the pictures to Herb. If these bees survive the winter, and become active in the spring, JUST THINK about how you can answer all those people who say they lost their colonies because of a HARD winter. Many colonies that die during the winter, particularly January when there are NO YOUNG BEES, die of TRACHEAL MITE infection; because most beekeepers don't know how to dissect a bee and examine the trachea under a microscope. Worse is the fact that since these beeHAVERS can't SEE the microscopic tracheal mite, they ASSUME the bees do not have the mite and hence do NOT treat with menthol in August or grease patties all year. What a story you will have to tell! We all appreciate your nice writings on the BEE-L George ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 06:58:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Exposed Colony in Tree In-Reply-To: <199911040017.TAA21050@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by rtaylor421@LOWCOUNTRY.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > > ----------------- Original message (ID=AC24987F) (70 lines) > Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:21:19 -0500 > From: Ron Taylor > Subject: Re: Exposed Colony in Tree > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > > Organization: Geechee Honey Farm > > Hi Ron: I live in lowcountry of soth carolina. i received a call from > paramount pictures about a bee hives in an oak tree at the planation where > Forest Gump was being filmed. It was it the location where Forest Gump Kicked > off his braces. We used a forklift and a vacuum to suck the bees ion a cage. > We put the honey comb in empty frames and reestablished thje hives in a > regular hive body. The movie people wher amazed that bees could be handled > like that. They liked to chew honey comb. Ron Taylor Past President SC > Beekeeprs, Cottageville SC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:57:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Upward ventilation/downward ventilation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carbon Dioxide is NOT heavier than air. If it were, there would nothing near the ground on earth but carbon dioxide expelled by animal breath. The cluster of bees is WARM, and kept warm by eating honey. Their breath is warm and all "hot" air rises. This is why a bee hive SHOULD ABSOLUTELY have an UPPER entrance to allow this moisture filled air to escape the colony rather than condense into water droplets as it does in you shaving pile UNDER PLASTIC. If you had an UPPER entrance in the plastic cover, shielded from rain by some sort of umbrella, your shavings would be dry. I am starting my 67th year of beekeeping in 2000. I have NO holes drilled in any body (that is stupid), I have no reducers inserted in the bottom board in order to allow air movement into the colony; but I have a 1" slot cut in the front edge of the INNER COVER as an UPPER ENTRANCE. This "hole" lets the rising moist air out in the winter, and the foraging bees use it in the spring and summer to enter and exit the supers without going through the congested brood chamber below. You can read about many of my writings on http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ click the lower right image or http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html I hope I have helped. George ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:14:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Grease Patties Treatment for Tracheal Mites In-Reply-To: <199911040237.VAA24045@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > ... since these beeHAVERS > can't SEE the microscopic tracheal mite, they ASSUME the bees do not have the > mite and hence do NOT treat with menthol in August or grease patties all year. Grease patties all year is no longer recommended by the researcher credited with the original work, Diana Sammataro. Diana spoke at them summer seminar hosted by the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association and I questioned her at length about her work. Subsequent studies showed that grease patties can be used in fall/winter (when the bees are confined and clustered) to keep t-mites sufficiently in check. The buzz-word/phrase currently in vogue is "economic threshold", although I do not recall Diana using that term specifically. Anyway, her recommendation is for grease patties for fall and winter, which should keep the dynamics of the t-mite population low enough so that grease patties in spring and summer should not be required. T-mite populations that build up in non-treatment periods will be checked in the fall when treatment resumes. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:55:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Knut Helland Subject: Re: Upward ventilation/downward ventilation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carbon Dioxide has an atomic weight of 44. Air has an atomic weight of approx. 29 (28 for N2 and 32 for O2). This means that Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air. However near the ground there is a lot of air movement so the various components in the atmosphere are mixed. The amount of Carbon Dioxide is not very high, this is due to the sea is absorbing Carbon Dioxide and trees etc. are converting Carbon Dioxide back to oxygen. In a place with no air movement like the bottom of a dry well, if you put a lot of organic materials there to rot, Carbon Dioxide will accumulate at the bottom and it will displace the air. In a bee hive, the effect of hot air rising could be stronger than the effect of that Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air. As I am a newbee bee keeper I will not comment further. Best regards Knut S.Helland Bergen, Norway. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:15:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Upward ventilation/downward ventilation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beefriends George From: writes: > Carbon Dioxide is NOT heavier than air. If it were, there would nothing near > the ground on earth but carbon dioxide expelled by animal breath. > Sorry, but Carbon Dioxide (CO2) weights 44 units (C=12 plus O=16 - twice i.e. 12+16+16) and the air (a mixture of various gases) mean weight is 29 (at 20 degrees C or 293 K). CO2 is really heavier at the same temperature. Also there is known that gases encrease/decrease their volume by 1/273 to each Kelvin (Celsium as well) temperature degree. Let's take the difference of ambient temperature inside a hive is minus 60 K (or C) if compared to bees inside temperature. Then the breathed out CO2 will increse by 60/273 i.e. 22% or its specific weight will decrese by 22%. That's 44/1,22=36 units and this is more than 29. If there is no moving/mixing force (wind, bee fennig with wings, maybe, thermic streams, etc) these gases distribute according to their specific weight. Sincerely Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt ICQ# : 4201422 http://www.lei.lt http://gytis.lei.lt/ 55 N, 24 E ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:34:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Exposed Colony Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Photos of the exposed colony I wrote about yesterday can be viewed at: http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/Ronswarm.html http://www.birkey.com/blb/beekeeping/feral/index.html Thank you to Herb (Midnightbee) and Barry Birkey for posting the photos, and for the excellent beekeeping web pages. They are both great sources of information. Thanks again! Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:47:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: More on ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Bill, I don't use auger holes in my boxes but instead simply raise the front edge of the moisture release board about a quarter of an inch with a small twig. The opening created is usually sheltered somewhat by the outer cover but the bees still use it and it allows moisture to escape. Seems to work well here in MN. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> William Morong 11/03/99 02:49PM >>> Good point on the diffusion of CO2 from the bees through the top, for any CO2 in solution in the air inside the hive. Any CO2 in excess of that might come out of solution. I have no data CO2 solubility in air at any temperature. As to what floats and what sinks, according to the CRC Handbook, at 0 degrees C, air density is 1.17 g/l, and of CO2, 1.97 g/l. Were the CO2 to be warmed to +40 C its density would drop to about 273/313 times 1.97, or 1.72 g/l. Were the air to be cooled to -40 C, its density would rise to 273/233 times 1.17, or about 1.37 g/l. So undissolved CO2 probably sinks at all reasonable temperatures. This based on the gas law, PV=nRT, and is approximate because the gases are probably not perfect. So it seems that dissolved CO2 will diffuse any way it can, and any excess falls down and goes out by gravity. What comforts me, I hope justifiably, is that with the right configuration the removal of gaseous waste is passive, and conceivably done with little heat loss. All this leaves me pondering the idea that started the thought, whether there is an optimal height for locating the auger holes I am about to bore. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:08:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Upward ventilation/downward ventilation? In-Reply-To: <199911041340.IAA06802@listserv.albany.edu> from "Rimantas Zujus" at Nov 4, 99 03:15:09 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rimantas Zujus wrote: > > If there is no moving/mixing force (wind, bee fennig with wings, maybe, > thermic streams, etc) these gases distribute according to their specific > weight. > Actually, they don't. All gases are infinitely soluble in each other, and they diffuse much faster than any sort of "settling out" effect. Because of this, mixtures of gases do not spontaneously unmix, no matter how still the air is kept, what the composition of the gas mixture is, or how long you keep it still. While it is true that pure CO2 is denser than air, we aren't talking about pure CO2 here. The air that the bees breathe out will have a few percent CO2, at most, which won't be enough to make the air noticeably denser. Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:59:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Upward ventilation/downward ventilation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Sorry, but Carbon Dioxide (CO2) weights 44 units (C=12 plus O=16 - twice >i.e. 12+16+16) and the air (a mixture of various gases) mean weight is 29 >(at 20 degrees C or 293 K). CO2 is really heavier at the same temperature. Air is a mixture of gases, one of which is C02. When a bee breaths it takes some O2 adds a little CO2, water vapor and other trace elements to the gases as well as heat. As long as there is enough heat in the process the resulting gas mixture is going to expand. This expansion will result in the gas now having more volume which will cause it to rise above the cooler air (the difference in weight between the O2 and CO2 will be small compared to the effect of the heat). I doubt there is any danger in the CO2 levels, but I am sure the water vapor will get you. I am not sure of the details but I would bet that a lot of moisture in the hive would result in a lot more heat loss as the condensation would be evaporated near the cluster and dump a lot of energy when it recondenses away from the cluster. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:08:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Varroa mite pheromes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All I understand that there is research under way in France, I believe, on isolating the drone brood pheremones. This would truly be the 'silver bullet'! Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:37:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Ventilation, heat of vaporization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Al is right, if water goes out as a vapor, the its heat of vaporization goes out with it. This is inevitable unless one equips the hive with a condenser to recapture that heat. Apparently, from what George and Blane indicate, you can have your vent up high, even in a rough climate, and the bees do fine. Seems like the critical thing is venting the bad stuff, and that's good for everyone to know. What I wish to learn is how to optimize letting out the bad stuff without letting out more heat as heated air than necessary. Heat is wear on my bees, and honey. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Winter heat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Morong says "What I wish to learn is how to optimize letting out the bad stuff without letting out more heat as heated air than necessary. Heat is wear on my bees, and honey." My understanding is that "the bad stuff" is the condensation that forms as the heat rises and meets the cold surface of the outer cover, the top of the straw, shavings, or whatever, etc. I am not aware that anyone has ever demonstrated that carbon dioxide or any other by-products of respiration accumulate to harmful levels. (Feces, of course, can lead to real problems but normally healthy bees can apparently cope with what little there are. Dysentery is another subject...and not being discussed at the moment.) The straw, shavings, fiberboard, etc. all act to capture the moisture and prevent it from dripping down on the bees and chilling them. I have always understood that good top ventilation is in lieu of straw, shavings, fiberboard, etc., but am aware that some beekeepers do both. (Just as some of us wear both a belt and suspenders.) The top ventilation lets the heat escape before it hits the cold surface of the cover and causes condensation. My understanding is that recent studies have shown that the bees do not heat the hive, but only themselves. Further, they are so stingy with this heat that the bees on the outside of the cluster are just about in a stupor because they are so cold. I recall that temperature probes have found the heat down to the 50's on the outside layer. I have thought this means that it is impractical to reduce the heat produced by the bees, and our management should be concentrated on dispersing that heat without causing condensation. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:13:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nancy D Subject: solar power Comments: To: TO SEND MESSAGE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm just curious, couldn't some kind of artificial heat be used for the bees. Maybe some kind of heat strips when it's really cold or something. Little solar panels connected to some kind of heater?? This will be my first winter with my bees and I'm a little anxious and would like to help them get through the winter. Of course here in Ark we shouldn't have near the problem as northerners do. Thanks for all the bee info I have found through this server. Nancy Dalrymple NW Arkansas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:34:32 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Re: solar power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All Nancy Dalrymple asks about solar power to assist bees to get through winter. This is not to be recommended although it may appear attractive at first sight. The problem caused by any type of artificial heating in a hive is, that it disrupts the bees' perception of conditions outside, and it could thus result in the bees leaving the hive when the temperatures outside were too low to enable them to return , with disastrous consequences for them. The best course of action to give maximum chance of overwintering bees are: Have a young queen. Have disease free bees. Have well fed bees. Have a sound weather proof and well ventilated hive proofed against rodents, woodpeckers, bears etc. Do not disturb the bees until the onset of spring. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 06:04:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: polariscope Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I dislike liquefying honey, but much of the market demands it, and it is too big a portion to ignore. The heat recommended by "Hive and Honeybee" is 140 to 150 F for 30 minutes. Not wishing to overheat I have sometimes been left with some small seed crystals and think that perhaps a polariscope would be a help in seeing them. The "Hive and Honeybee" has a picture of one but it is impossible to tell from it whether the polaroid lens is just between the jar and the eye or both between the jar and the eye *AND* the jar and the lightsource. Looking at the bee-l logs I see that there was a discussion once on directions for a homemade polariscope in the "ABC and XYZ of Beekeeping". Since I do not have this book, I wonder if someone would post the correct placement of polaroid lenses in relation to light source, honey jar, and eye (and whether there are any rotation requirements). BTW, any comments on how well these are for seeing seed? Thankyou in advance, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:45:53 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Drone Pheromone For Varroa Trapping Comments: To: Discussion of Bee Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 There has been some discussion about the possible future use of drone pheromones to act as varroa traps. I wonder what would happen if an artificial pheromone source was inserted inside a working colony. Some considerable care might be needed to avoid disruption of the normal colony operation. A number of related questions come to mind. For example, what is the current understanding of the role of pheromones in determining the number of drones reared in a colony? (There must be some powerful factors at work since small colonies are generally most unlikely to rear drones at all. I have first hand experience of an observation colony that put up queen cells in response to overcrowding, but there were still no, or at best very few, drone cells present.) What is the exact role of drone pheromones in a colony? Is this what guides the workers to feed the grubs and then to seal them in at the correct age? If so would a artificial source interfere with this? Regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire HG1 2PY UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:14:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: solar power Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Everyone, Lloyd Spear already mentioned the research that has shown that the bees don't heat the hive outside the cluster. Quite a few years ago now Dr. Haydak wintered some colonies of honey bees outside on the University of MN St Paul campus with only screen on the top and bottom of the colonies. The bees did fine. This was done to show that the bees don't require additional heat if you have a good strong colony with plenty of stores even outside here where we have winter temperatures that usually get into the -20 to -30 degree range. Removal of moisture to prevent dripping on the cluster, keeping mice out of the hive, and wind protection are important for wintering. More recent research has shown that more insulation is of benefit to colonies infested with tracheal mites but good healthy disease and mite free colonies don't need that extra protection. Added heat or insulation can reduce winter feed consumption but is usually not actually needed in most parts of the US. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:33:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: polariscope In-Reply-To: <199911051148.GAA10845@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...The "Hive and Honeybee" has a picture of one but it is impossible to tell > from it whether the Polaroid lens is just between the jar and the eye or > both between the jar and the eye *AND* the jar and the lightsource.... > ...Looking at the bee-l logs I see that there was a discussion once on > directions for a homemade polariscope in the "ABC and XYZ of Beekeeping"... There is a picture in the second last Hive and the Honeybee that shows what you are thinking about. The unit uses a light source, a polarised lens, a space for the object being studied, then another lens. Polarised lenses for photography or lenses from polarised sunglasses can suffice for a jury-rigged 'scope. A web ref is http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/polaris.htm The page above a bout gemmology, but the principals are similar. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:48:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: solar power In-Reply-To: <199911051419.JAA13998@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lloyd Spear already mentioned the research that has shown that the > bees don't heat the hive outside the cluster. Quite a few years ago > now Dr. Haydak wintered some colonies of honey bees outside on the > University of MN St Paul campus with only screen on the top and bottom > of the colonies. The bees did fine. While this is true, this does not necessarily indicate that the bees will be in as good condition in spring or that the survival rate per 100 hives will be as high compared to bees that are sheltered properly and/or wrapped according to the needs of a particular district. And bees may not heat the area outside the cluster much under most conditions, but the cluster *size* will be *much smaller* in a cooler hive, meaning less food is in the cluster and perhaps less brood can be protected. This can mean colony death in some situations. I realise that I'm repeating myself, since this has been heavily discussed in the past, but to recap, we have found that some years bees need protection, some they don't. Who knows in advance what year will bring two weeks of minus forty weather with strong winds in February when the bees are weakening from being confined, and also vulnerable due to increasing brood rearing? Who can tell for sure when the bees are a bit weakened by disease, parasites, or a bad previous summer? It is also imortant to understand that limited tests with one strain of bee in one locale will not prove anything for all types. Sure, livestock can often survive without shelter and care, but most good operators try to provide more than the minimum requirements. Farrar (as I recall) many years ago did studies using electic heat tapes and concluded that they were a benefit. Artificial heat CAN be a bonus when applied properly and with careful timing. > Added heat or > insulation can reduce winter feed consumption but is usually not > actually needed in most parts of the US. True, but where it is needed, it is needed. Sorry to be so brief, but time is short and much more is in the logs under wintering , wraps, survival, etc. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Winter for new beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nancy says, "This will be my first winter with my bees and I'm a little anxious and would like to help them get through the winter." Nancy, and probably a lot more out there, please don't worry. It takes some joy out of beekeeping. For the most part, cold does not hurt bees. There are exceptions, of course, but those are in much colder places than northern Arkansas or upstate NY (where I am). In fact, for many years one of the outstanding queen breeders in North America was north of the agriculture line in Saskatchewan, (Western Canada). He over-wintered his stocks in single story hives! (Ok, ok, they were selected for the climate.) Make certain the bees have an upper entrance, at least 50-60 pounds of food, and they will be fine. Providing, of course, that tracheal and varroa mites are under control. If they are not, no amount of heat or other care will save them. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:51:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Swintosky, Michael D." Subject: Re: Drone Brood Pheromones - "Silver Bullet" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I imagine that the same pheromones that attract varroa to drone brood also have some significant meaning to bees. Indiscriminate use of a synthetic version of the pheromone might prove confusing, perhaps convincing the bees that the queen is laying an undue quantity of drone eggs. If so, there may be an increased rate of supersedure. It will be interesting to find out the results of the research that Tom mentioned. Mike Swintosky Dellroy, OH ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:06:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rich Blohm Subject: Re: polariscope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Looking at the bee-l logs I see that there was a discussion once on directions for a homemade polariscope in the "ABC and XYZ of Beekeeping". Since I do not have this book, I wonder if someone would post the correct placement of polaroid lenses in relation to light source, honey jar, and eye (and whether there are any rotation requirements). BTW, any comments on how well these are for seeing seed? >> `I have a polariscope and I've looked at the picture of the one one pg. 909 in the HAHB. The picture is very clear there is a light bulb in the box and there are two sheets of polarizing filters sandwiched between two sheets of glass one in front of the jar and one behind it. And yes you have to rotate the filters to get the desired results. BTW, you will see any seed and any lint or wax that you couldn't see with the naked eye. If you want to make one of these, go to a bee meeting when they are judging honey and the judge should have one for you to look at. Don't forget to bring some honey to see how many crystals you have. Good luck Rich Blohm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:16:40 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Grease Patties Treatment for Tracheal Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Grease patties all year is no longer recommended by the researcher > credited with the original work, Diana Sammataro. Diana spoke at them > summer seminar hosted by the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association and I > questioned her at length about her work. Subsequent studies showed that > grease patties can be used in fall/winter (when the bees are confined and > clustered) to keep t-mites sufficiently in check. This is very encouraging news. In the past I had attempted to keep grease patties in the colony all year, but found that summer temperatures were too high for the patties to hold together very well. So I abandoned any try at suumer treatments, and hoped for the best. As it turned out, bees wintered very well indeed with a fall patty placement, and I didn't notice any problems at all during the subsequent spring and summer. By the way, I just removed my coumaphos strips yesterday after 45 days in the hives. Every colony (76) looks good - some are still completely packed with bees now on November 5! It is surely different from about 5 years ago, when varroa first hit my hives and 40% were dead by the middle of October. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:20:48 -0600 Reply-To: lithar@midwest.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: solar power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: > Removal of moisture to prevent dripping on the cluster, I have been wondering about the use of desiccants to absorb moisture during the winter. There are packages designed for use in damp areas, like basements, that are reusable after drying in the oven. Has anyone tried this approach??? AL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:15:02 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Upward ventilation/downward ventilation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > I am starting my 67th year of beekeeping in 2000. I have NO holes drilled in > any body (that is stupid), I have no reducers inserted in the bottom board in > order to allow air movement into the colony; but I have a 1" slot cut in the > front edge of the INNER COVER as an UPPER ENTRANCE. This "hole" lets the > rising moist air out in the winter, and the foraging bees use it in the > spring and summer to enter and exit the > supers without going through the congested brood chamber below. Well, since I have holes drilled in all of my hive bodies, I ought to feel chastised by this post. However, since sometime George overstates his case, I still feel OK about myself. Just a few comments about extra entrances: Bees freely use entrances all over the hive bodies, but I don't see them use entrances in the super all that much. During the summer, I have all two or three hive body entrance holes open, as well as broken places elsewhere. My feeling is that if the bees use them, the entrances are helpful to the colony. Now, at this time of the year the picture changes. Mice can use the extra entrances just as easily. So I plug up all broken corners with duct tape, plug up the entrance hole in the lowest hive body, and put on entrance reducers - all to keep mice out of the hive. I'd leave them all open otherwise - they give wonderful winter ventilation. And that is the reason I leave open the holes in the second and third hive body. Like George, I have a slit cut into the inner cover, also for ventilation. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:30:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: solar power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have often wondered if heat applied to the feeder during early spring stimulative feeding would not be a plus. It seems it would be easy to do with a surplus photovoltaic panel and a cartidge heater in the syrup. While it would only heat while the sun was shining it could be modified to charge a battery and heat longer. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:09:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Solar heating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While not advocating hive heating I must, as an old electrical engineer, point out that photovoltaic panels are rather inefficient and expensive, and if heat is desired, it is far more efficient to collect and store solar energy as heat without the intermediacy of conversion to electricity. I anticipate considering whatever, negative or positive, others have to offer about the idea of hive heating per se. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:09:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Drone Pheromone For Varroa Trapping In-Reply-To: <199911051417.JAA13950@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What is the exact role of drone pheromones in a colony? Is this what > guides the workers to feed the grubs and then to seal them in at the > correct age? If so would a artificial source interfere with this? There was some discussion of the functions of pheromones at Apimondia. FWIW, the proceedings is available in a handy book that was distributed to all the attendees and contains the entire transcripts of some talks and précis of others. Pheromones of bees are apparently cues to varroa. One such pheromone is the one that brood emit when ready for capping. 1,000 extra copies of the 'Proceedings' were printed and some are still available for about $15 CAD (as I recall), from the Canadian Honey Council at http://www.honeycouncil.ca/ . I imagine that booksellers like Larry might have a few copies too. FWIW, Kenn Tuckey, our Alberta government Apiarist reported putting one interesting fact from Apimondia to use. After the meeting he had an opportunity to be looking in a hive which showed no signs of varroa and had no drone brood. Remembering a lecture we had attended, he uncapped one worker cell that was taller than the rest and found varroa in it. I believe he repeated the trick again later. The principle in use here was that varroa foundress mites questing for cells use the height of each cell compared to surrounding brood as a cue to select the one they will enter. They prefer taller cells and enter them preferentially. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:41:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Bonney Subject: Re: polariscope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some weeks ago there was an exchange of messages about polariscopes and I offered to send interested individuals a copy of the polariscope plan from the booklet "Composition of American Honeys." Medical problems have kept me from following through on that offer, but I am now able to do it. I have already sent the plan to some of you who requested it earlier. Anyone else who wants it, let me know. This plans answers most of the questions I have seen here regarding dimensions, materials, etc. Regards to all Dick Bonney rebonney@javanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 08:58:26 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Solar heating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been following this subject with interest. I recall several years ago a documentary film from New Zealand about queen breeders there siting their banking colonies on the hot water themals and having a series of pipes in the bottom of the hive through which the hot water was pumped. This heated the hive and helped with the survival of the banked queens. Whilst not being solar heat, some of the Kiwis on Bee-L may be able to give the list more details on the heating of the hives with the hot water. It may have applications in other cold parts of the beekeeping world. Go the Aussies in the World Cup!!! Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mac and Nancy Hedgpeth Subject: exposed colony Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit greetings, two years ago we found an exposed honeybee nest in one of our beeyards which appeared to have been from a late summer swarm. Chances of their survival over winter were likely slim here in the northeast so as an experiment we carefully cut the sections of limbs that the combs were attached to and suspended the entire nest in a deep and medium sized super. A feeder jar was placed over these after the hive was relocated several miles away and the hive was wrapped with tar paper. The hive survived the winter and a second deep super was added in the spring. When most of the brood nest was located in the upper super of frames the lower supers containing the original nest was removed . Should another open colony appear we would like to try placing it in an observation hive. mac ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:41:17 -0700 Reply-To: flightdeck1@earthlinkREMOVETHIS.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Exposed Colony in Tree - overwintered! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After e-mailing Ron whom removed the exposed colony in the previous post on Bee-L, he suggested I publish my observation of his picture here - as I have reason to believe that his exposed hive lasted through the winter: ------------------------------------------ Ron, I think your homeowner was mistaken if he/she thinks the bees showed up in June of this year. The comb displayed in your photo is much older than 5 or 6 months based on the color of the comb. When the bees use the comb successively for brood, each cycle will turn the comb darker & darker - and your hive resembles one which is probably a year old. Certainly no older, since no parts are pitch-black. Your homeowner probably just 'noticed' the bees around June since that would be about the time the hive would be building up in numbers, allowing the hive to be easily recognized. The evergreen would keep the hive shielded from sight during the fall & winter. What I'm getting to is how an exposed colony lasted through the winter. Either these bees survived or a second swarm showed up in May or June (likely) and took over the 'house'. The architecture tells a different story as well. Notice the jagged corners & twisted form? All the new hives (less than 6 months) I remove are usually observed in some version of a semi-circular form - with slight burr comb for stability. Hives older than a year have brace comb EVERYWHERE. The circular combs become jagged as the bees chew down the original form (or add to) for a more stable 'protective' design. It's possible the queen was a tremendous layer and laid eggs throughout the comb, 3 or 4 times, turning the hive off-brown color - but then the hive would be much larger with more fresh white comb on the outside for feeding the brood. This isn't science, but after 100's of feral colony removals, the comb really shows what the bees have been up to - how healthy they are(were); what they've been collecting for nectar & pollen; definitely how good the queen is; etc. Personally, I think it's possible for bees to survive mildly freezing weather if they are able to huddle together in large enough numbers - somewhat protected from piercing wind chill. Too bad someone didn't notice the hive last fall! That's my 2 cents. Tell me what you think if you have additional info on the removal. ---------------------------------- Ron replied that this past winter was "exceptionally mild" - so perhaps the original bees survived stuck between those branches. Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, CO Earthling Bees, Inc - "Take Me To Your Feeder" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Davis Subject: Re: exposed colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could these colonies that build in the open be a genetic variation which prefer outdoor nests, but because of the harsh environment not succeed and not pass this tendency on to future generations? Just a thought. Steve > two years ago we found an exposed honeybee nest in one of our beeyards which ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:06:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: solar power In-Reply-To: <199911051510.KAA15822@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the question of solar energy: Many beekeepers do wrap their hives with tar paper or black plastic, partially to cut any draughts that might get through cracks in the hives, and also to give the hives a little warmth on sunny days to facilitate the movement of bees in the hive. One very successful beekeeper I know wraps his bees side by side in pairs with insulation on the back and sides only. He has black plastic around the whole of the two hives to protect the insulation, and joins it on the uninsulated south side where each hibe has an auger hole for venting and flight. The black draws warmth and the bees get active on sunny days, distributing feed in the hive and leaving the hive if necessary. He has a black plastic hive filled with R12 insulation on top of his frames under the normal telescoping lid. Several sticks across the frames loft the bag enough to allow ther bees to wander around under the bag. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:35:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "D.K. Stream" Subject: MONTANA BEEKEEPERS Comments: To: Bee-L@uacsc2.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEEKEEPERS: Brand-new to the world of bees and beekeeping, I live near Helena, = Montana and plan to start my honey operation next Spring. If any of you = expeienced beekeepers who live in the state of Montana would be willing = to share some of your wisdom and knowledge with me, I would greatly = appreciate it. =20 Thank you very much. I look forward to making connections with you = soon. Yours truly, Doug Stream wildwind@imine.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:56:54 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Beekeeping Symposium Comments: cc: molly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Third Midwest Beekeeping Symposium is planned for March 25, 2000 at McHenry County College in Crystal Lake, Illinois. The keynote speaker will be Mark Winston, author, professor, researcher, and beekeeper from British Columbia, Canada. Mark the date on your calendar. The day long event will be filled with a menu of presentations, commercial exhibits, and camaraderie. If you or your beekeeping associates wish to receive a program flyer, please send your snail mail address as a personal message to me and I will add you to the mailing list. Flyers will be available in early January. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:58:50 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re colony in tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have to disagree with Matthew that the exposed colony should be displaying 'plates' earlier than 1999, think he is failing to appreciate the staining that occurs from propolis. Maybe the colony collected vast quantities of this substance to strengthen their home in such an exposed position. Ken Hoare in wet Shropshire, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 01:15:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Varroa report as promissed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have just now put up the Danish Varroa report in two editions a raw html included GIF files as Http://apimo.dk/programs/varroa_report_html.zip 934KB and as word 97 doc file as http://apimo.dk/programs/varroa_report.zip 3,6mb those reports are about handling the varroa without use of apistan or bayvarol but by using formic and oxalic acid instead of. It is text and graph illustrating the results. I really hope some of you can use it, because customers are more and more asking for ecological articles, and the tolerance to fluvalionat is spreading among varroa all over the world. The report is a Danish contribution to the varroa fight and you are welcome to use it for any purpose except commercial use. best regards Jorn Johanesson EDBi = multilingual Beekeeping software since 1987 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo (Denmark) http://apimo.dk (USA) apimo@post4.tele.dk Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:58:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Rupert Subject: Observations of a 2nd year beekeeper Comments: To: Bee-l discussion list Comments: cc: "rrupert@aeci.org" I am located in Southwest Missouri and this is my second year of beekeeping. I started this year with 3 hives in my backyard. I now have those three and two more in an outyard thanks to a split I made and a swarm caught in a bait hive. I have some observations on which I'd appreciate comments. Imirie shims: I installed an Imirie shim on one hive between supers of drawn comb. I observed it for a week and never saw the bees using the entrance in the shim. At the end of a week I inspected and found the bees had filled the space occupied by the shim with brace comb, so I removed the comb and the shim. Not having an entrance above the excluder didn't seem to deter the bees. This hive produced 5 supers of honey plus two frames of cut comb honey. Beltsville screen inserts: I built several of these and installed over the bottom boards when I treated for mites in August. This was the first time I used sticky boards and these inserts are great for that. I was stunned at the hundreds of mites on the boards after the strips had been in for only a few hours. I also noted that small black ants were carrying off the dead mites. I left the insert on one hive after completing the apistan treatments to observe mite fall with no treatment in the hive. (The insert is still on and I will leave it on all winter but I have blocked off the opening in the back) There would be a few mites on the board from time to time, but it was difficult to evaluate because of the actions of the ants. Furthermore, I assume that there is some degree of natural mite mortality, therefore some of the mites under the screen would have died anyway whether or not the screen was in place. The question is: how many mites below the screen were healthy mites that just lost their grip and died because they could not get back on a host, and how many died due to natural mortality? What to do with wet supers: Again this year, after extracting, I put the wet supers back on a couple of strong hives, having read that the bees will clean them and carry the honey below, leaving nice dry supers to store with PDB. I tried this last year and it did not work. This time, in addition to putting them on top of the inner covers, I put empty hive bodies on the inner covers first. It didn't matter. Once again the bees cleaned off the frames and stored the honey in a very random manner throughout the supers. I had to run virtually every frame back through the extractor, which yielded about a gallon of honey/nectar from nine supers. What am I doing wrong here? It would be easier to store them wet but I understand that: a) wet supers should not be stored with PDB because the remaining honey would pick up the odor/taste of PDB, and b) storing supers wet will promote granulation of next year's honey crop. Are both of these true? Menthol treatment: I install menthol packs in August when the ambient temperature here in Southwest Missouri is frequently in the upper 90's. My experience the last two years is that the bees completely isolate the menthol pack from the hive with propolis before the menthol has a chance to sublimate. I am not sure how much of a treatment the bees are getting because there is always menthol remaining when I remove the packs. Any suggestions? Entrance reducers: Last winter I installed 3/8" hardware cloth across the entrances instead of entrance reducers. This seemed to work well and I would prefer to use it on all hives instead of reducers. The problem is that 3/8" hardware cloth must not be manufactured these days. I have checked all over Missouri and can not find it, only 1/4" and 1/2". Anyone have a source for it? Rod Rupert Springfield, Missouri rrupert@mail.orion.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:32:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Use of queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, Snelgrove suggests that a side effect of using his famous board for swarm control is that the bees will more readily use the super above the queen excluder. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:35:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Skriba Subject: Michigan Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am interested in corresponding with beekeepers in Michigan who recieve this list. I live near Ithaca. I used to help my dad with bees back 20 some years ago and now that I am back in the country, i plan on starting a few swarms next spring. Thanks Bill Skriba you can email directly WSkriba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:35:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Rubert's questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Rubert asked some interesting questions and I will be learning, as will others, from the replies. I will make a contribution to some of his questions: "Again this year, after extracting, I put the wet supers back on a couple of strong hives, having read that the bees will clean them and carry the honey below, leaving nice dry supers to store with PDB." Ron, you are putting the supers back too soon. They should only be put back on hives after the flows are over for the year. In fact, after your first hard killing frost. After that date there are still plenty of days when the temperatures are in the 60's and the bees will clean up the wet supers and not move nectar into them. Better yet, just put the supers in your bee yard, not on a hive. You can do this any time, and the bees will rob them out. I find two days is sufficient to have nice dry comb. Put them out without a top and you won't have any problem with wax moth invading them. I store my supers wet (I put out sticky frames for the bees to clean after I have taken cut-comb out of them) and do not use PDB. I can get away with this in my climate in upstate NY as wax moth is inactive from October 1 until around June 15 (if the combs are kept in a barn that is unheated). I have never heard about the crystallization potential and will be interested in the comments of others. "Last winter I installed 3/8" hardware cloth across the entrances instead of entrance reducers. This seemed to work well and I would prefer to use it on all hives instead of reducers. The problem is that 3/8" hardware cloth must not be manufactured these days." Yep, 3/8" hardware cloth is 6 mesh and that is almost impossible to find any more. I use 1/2" hardware cloth for entrance reducers, and have never had a problem. If you have tiny mice, try 1/4", or 4 mesh. Bees readily go through it, and I don't believe that any mice could possibly get through. The advantage of 1/2" is that drones can get through it, but they can't get through 1/4". That means the 1/2" can be left on all year, while the 1/4" cannot. Hope this helps, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:59:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Varroa report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear beekeeper colleague! Some of the text fell out in the varroa.html file by converting from word97 to html! goto : http://apimo.dk/Varroa_report/varroa_report.htm and save the file to disk to get the full text further more a translation to one of the pictures in Varroa_report.doc fell out it is the text to the three cleaning pictures and goes: Freeze killing. A Stanley knife is used to cut out a rhombi which cover 100 cells with brood of same age. The comb piece is put into the freezer for 24 hours and is then put back in from where it was taken. The clean out of the dead brood is controlled after 3 days and nights By the needle killing method is 50 cells with sealed brood killed with a thin needle.. Here is controlled how many needle harmed cells the bees has cleaned out after 12 hours sorry for this errors best regards Jorn Johanesson EDBi = multilingual Beekeeping software since 1987 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo (Denmark) http://apimo.dk (USA) apimo@post4.tele.dk Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:14:41 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! Honey recipes: http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/honey.html If you would like to add your favorite honey recipes,let us know. More photos of "exposed" honey colony:Location is Nepal http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/raji.html Got photos? Send to us and we will insert them on our web site. This is a HUGE download.. George's Nov issue: http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/nov.html We have included a greeting card..just following the below instructions. You have two options to pick up a copy of your greeting: 1. Use a user name and password to log in and pick it up: - Go to: http://greetme.animatedgreetings.com/login/ - Type in your user name: midnitebee@cybertours.com "you must use our email address" - Type in your password: tqghanu - Choose the file format and save the card to your disk* Save the greeting to the C: drive and make a note of where you saved it. The password and user name are cAse sEnsiTiVe so copy them exactly as you see they are shown above. 2. If your e.mail application supports hyper-links go to: http://greetme.animatedgreetings.com/pickup/11616843759249/Shock If you don't have Shockwave, click on the Download Mac or PC file to download a self running file of the greeting that requires no plug-in Please contact us if you are interested in having your state or local newsletters (related to beekeeping) posted on my web site. Herb/Norma Holly-B Apiary P.O. Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:04:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa report as promissed! In-Reply-To: <199911070346.WAA27681@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jorn & all I just d/l'd the files mentioned in your post, unzipped them (with a little difficulty due to long file names) and then realised that they can be viewed without the hassle of downloading and unzipping at your site by simply surfing to http://apimo.dk/Varroa_report/varro-report.html I must say I very! much appreciate the information presented there and recommend it to all who are interested in non-proprietary substances for varroa control. Thanks Jorn. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:06:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Sv: Rubert's questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Lloyd Spear Til: BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU Dato: 7. november 1999 16:32 Emne: Rubert's questions > Better yet, just put the supers in your bee yard, not on a hive. Newer feed bees in the free! letting bees robbing out gives a potential danger that dieseases are spreed. Not only to yur hives but also to beekeepers in the neigborhood. Please remember that AFB spores are found in Honey too! best regards Jorn Johanesson EDBi = multilingual Beekeeping software since 1987 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo (Denmark) http://apimo.dk (USA) apimo@post4.tele.dk Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:02:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Bonney Subject: Polaroid film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have recently e-mailed a plan for a polariscope to a number of people on this list. One of the materials in the plan is Polaroid J film. Two pieces 7 and 1/2 inches square are required. The publication from which the plan was taken is 30 years old. I have a couple of questions. What is Polaroid J film? Is it still available today under that designation? Where can it be purchased inexpensively? The Edmond Scientific consumer catalog lists polaroid film. It does not specify kind or type, just generic polaroid. I suppose a phone call to them might bring all the answers but I thought one of you might know. Regards Dick Bonney Charlemont MA rebonney@javanet.com