From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 13 07:13:00 2000 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08333 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02325 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200002131212.HAA02325@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:58 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9911D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 62916 Lines: 1320 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 07:56:53 +0000 Reply-To: alan.riach@which.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Botulism, Honey and Statistics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Journal of Pediatrics study looks a bit suspect to me. According to the "scientific" method you can't run a search for Botulism And Honey and then automatically link the 2. Kids being fed Honey could also have been fed lots of other Botulism carriers.(See Richard Feynmans book "The meaning of it all"-P 80/81).You must not select the peculiar case just because you've found the peculiar case. However I agree with playing it safe. Alan Riach Nr.Edinburgh-Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:05:10 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: beekeeping and Asian mangroves In-Reply-To: <199911200304.WAA18030@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dr Russell Hanley asked about mangroves. Here in Australia, particularly in Queensland, there are two main mangroves which are sometimes worked by beekeepers. They may occur in your part of Java. They are:- Avicennia marina var. resinefera. This flowers around February and can produce honey in some seasons. Even though it flowers it does not necessarily produce honey. It can be white in flower and not produce. It has a taste all of its own and some people find it not to their liking. Aegiceras corniculatum which flowers around October or November and can produce honey but can flower and not produce. It has its own taste but is not as objectionable as the one above. It is very light in colour and candies with a very fine grain. The botanical names I have quoted above may not now be current but should be still listed as synonoms. There are many other mangroves in the north of Australia but as there are no honey bees there, I cannot comment on how bees would work them. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:10:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Breeding better bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst continues the discussion concerning whether any of the breeding programs have, in fact, developed a "better bee". I can think of two situations where, IMHO, better bees have been developed through management and breeding. The first is the strain maintained by the Mraz family in North/Central Vermont. In some 60 years of beekeeping (father and son) they have developed a bee that suits their climate, are superb honey producers, and are relatively gentle. They do not purchase queens and went through a period of many years of culling to reduce aggression and increase production. The seven-month long winters, with annual low temperatures of -30 degrees took care of the need to have bees that will survive low temperatures. (Last week they received approximately 18 inches of snow!) For many generations they have made splits by the "walk-away" method, as they feel their strain dominates the local environment. A reasonably well known queen breeder, Kirk Webster, located his operation nearby and says that one reason is because of his respect for the strain developed by the Mrazs', which dominates the area. Another is the New World Carnolian, developed and maintained by Sue Cobey, currently at Ohio State. In the late 60's and early 70's the Carnolians were not widely used in the US and Canada because of their aggression and swarming tendency. During this time a Canadian breeder, Hastings, developed several Carnolian strains that he over-wintered in single story hives. Hastings was located north of the agriculture line in Saskatchewan, where winter temperatures frequently fell to -40 and -50 degrees. Not only did these bees survive in unprotected single story hives with little food (limited to what a single story could hold), but he managed to breed a strain that would not swarm when given adequate room. ("Adequate room" was sometimes 5-6 medium supers before June 1, and twelve for an entire season.) However, these bees were very aggressive and collected high amounts of propolis. Beginning sometime in the 1980's, Sue Cobey acquired several strains of Carnolians, including the Hastings stock, and selectively bred for some 15 traits. By then, instrumental insemination had been developed to the point where it was possible to produce an instrumentally inseminated queen that would have roughly the same life span and productivity as naturally mated queens. In addition, of course, Page and Laidlaw had published extensively on honey bee genetics and methods of maintaining a closed breeding system while avoiding deleterious inbreeding. Today's New World Carnolians are very gentle and quiet on the comb, are tremendous honey producers and, IMHO, are no more likely to swarm then Italians. They no longer have the tendency to plug everything, including the hive entrance, with propolis. Of prime importance to beekeepers in the northern part of the country, they over-winter with only a few cups full of bees and are very stingy with stores. I can recall during the 70's and 80's when annual wintering losses of 15%-25% were reasonably common. Today, assuming good mite control, winter losses seem to be less than 5% and I wonder if the increased prevalence of New World Carnolians is not the reason. I, for one, believe that it is possible to develop honey bees that best fit one's management and climate by rigorous stock selection. (I do, however, wonder if that is the best investment of one's time and energy compared to purchasing queens from reliable breeders.) I also think that persons such as Sue Cobey have developed "better bees", and we all have benefited. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 07:24:15 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: hygienic bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I introduced 300 hygienic queens into my apiary this summer. I was told they would clean up diseases and possibly help control varroa mites. As far as varroa control, I can't say. Possibly. My main concern was chalkbrood. Well, I've seen them clean up chalkbrood. Colonies rotten with chalk were cleaned up. Two months after introduction, not a mummy to be seen. What it will do for varroa I can't say. My question is this. While there were no mummies, there were the empty cells where a larvae had died. Do they clean up chalkbrood? Yes! Are they resistant? I don't think so. If the brood dies anyway, Is this "hygienic gene" doing any good. They still have to make a honey crop, and winter feed, which most did not. I had to feed massive amounts of sugar to these colonies. Does anyone else have experience with the hygienic gene? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Hygentic behavior in honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett wonders if there have been demonstrated benefits of hygienic behavior in controlling mites. Steve Taber, a scientist working for the United States Department of Agriculture, demonstrated many years ago that some bees have an advanced trait to keep their hive "clean" and that this trait could be used to advantage in controlling European Foulbrood and Chalkbrood. He demonstrated his by cutting out sections of brood, killing them by freezing, putting the frozen sections back in the hive from which they were taken, and observing how long it took the bees to pull the dead larvae from the cells and clean them for re-use. He found that in any population, some 10% of the hives would harbor a strain that would be clean the cells in 24 hours or less, compared to averages of 2-3 times that long. More important, he found that this hygienic trait was inheritable and that it was relatively simple for a beekeeper to select and breed so that 100% of his bees were hygienic. However, it was very labor intensive to cut out sections of brood, freeze, and reinsert the cells into the hives. Marla Spivak, at the University of Minnesota, observed that some bees were relatively aggressive toward varroa, tearing off legs and trying to expel them from the hive. She wondered if this aggressiveness was related to hygienic behavior and, after testing, determined that the two seem to be related. Her observations have been replicated by others. She also developed a simpler means of freezing the larva. She found that by cutting both ends off a can she could introduce liquid nitrogen to a small area of brood in a frame, thereby instantly freezing it, without adversely affecting the other larvae in the frame. Today, many commercial queen breeders in the US are adding "hygienic behavior" to the several traits for which they are selecting and, sometimes, maintaining by instrumental insemination. The objective is to significantly increase hygienic behavior from 10% of the general population to a much higher number and thus obtain some varroa resistance through these means. Beekeepers can keep UTD on these developments by subscribing to either of the two US beekeeping magazines Bee Culture can be found at www.AIRoot.com. The American Bee Journal can be found at www.Dadant.com. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:02:07 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re: Breeding varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I came across information recently to the effect that certain types of bees > are more aggressive towards the varroa mites than others. This aggression > varies directly with the housekeeping propensity of the bees. Tom from Ireland, and any others interested in this subject should attempt to get hold of Vol.79 No 3 and 4 1998 of Bee World published by IBRA which contain articles on the 'Hygienic behaviour of honey bees and its application for control of brood diseases and varroa'. Ken Hoare from 'sunny' Shropshire ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:44:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Treatment for mites in Missouri Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi everyone, Rod reports significant varroa mite drop in Missouri USA after using Apistan treatment. It really sounds to me like he is seeing mites in his colonies that are resistant to fluvalinate the active ingredient in Apistan. We have been finding such resistance showing up here in MN in many cases with on appearent connection between finds. The data from other parts of the world show that after about 10 years of using fluvalinate you start to find varroa that are resistant. Apistan resistance is rather widespread in the USA now but not uniform by any means. Rod appears to need an alternate treatment for the varroa in his hives. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Treatment for mites in Missouri In-Reply-To: <199911222237.RAA24534@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 22 Nov 99, at 13:44, Blane White wrote: > Rod reports significant varroa mite drop in Missouri USA after using > Apistan treatment. It really sounds to me like he is seeing mites in his > colonies that are resistant to fluvalinate the active ingredient in > Apistan. I might be a little slow, but this statement doesn't make much sense to me. Surely, a lack of mite fall on using Apistan would be more indicative of mite resistance to Apistan? A 'significant varroa fall' would indicate that the Apistan is working. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Beekeeping Jacket **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:59:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Heating (was Re: Killing spores in wax and honey) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The reason to pastuerize honey is to retard crystalization because the >consumer is not savvy enough to realize he trades flavor for appearance. I beg to differ. The reason that honey is pasteurized is to kill yeast that may cause it to ferment. At least that is the definition used in the Canadian honey regulations. Because honey is pasteurized at conditions with two variables, temperature and time, the use of presence of yeast as an index has some merit. The Hive and Honeybee (mine is 1975) lists the following (from Townsend) as conditions to kill yeast 470 min at 125 F 170 min at 130 F 60 min at 135 F 22 min at 140 F 7.5 min at 145 F 2.8 min at 150 F 1.0 min at 155 F But only a couple of pages earlier J.W. White who wrote the chapter on honey says, regarding liquefying honey: "The most used heating conditions appear to be 30 minutes at 140 to 150 F. In general, lower temperatures, even for much longer times, will not be effective." He seems to be saying that to produce honey that stay liquid for a good period you need to EXCEED pasteurization conditions. I know there is MUCH in the logs about temperature. And I have gone over it. But this temperature seems high to me. It takes so long to heat large quantities of honey that for producers without "flash heating" equipment long time lower temp is much more practical. I have a broker\wholesaler who is interested in liquid honey mostly, but they are saying that the problem with their last producer was honey that would crystallize on them still in the warehouse. Specific question for the list: Do you think the conditions listed by Townsend for pasteurization will also be sufficient for long term liquefying? Thanks, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:27:17 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hayward Subject: MAKING YOUR OWN FOUNDATION SHEETS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At a recent meeting of my beekeeping club a member enquired about equipment for making your own beeswax. I informed her of one roller type advertised in the American Bee Journal (sort of a pasta roller type), but I have also heard about cast plates onto which wax is poured and then sandwiched. I would be keen to hear from anyone who has had experience in making their own foundation, potential pitfalls, and whether ultimately they consider it worth the efffort. Yours in beekeeping from Oz Mark Hayward ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 02:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Treatment for mites in Missouri >> Rod reports significant varroa mite drop in Missouri USA after using >> Apistan treatment. It really sounds to me like he is seeing mites in his >> colonies that are resistant to fluvalinate the active ingredient in >> Apistan. >...but this statement doesn't make much sense to me. >Surely, a lack of mite fall on using Apistan would be more >indicative of mite resistance to Apistan? A 'significant >varroa fall'would indicate that the Apistan is working. I've just gone through this whole exchange in the logs and as far as I can tell, here is the story: The original post said that the hives were treated with four Apistan(r) strips *in the summer*, and I quote: >This hive was requeened in June and treated with four apistan >strips (two per hive body) from July 17 through August 29. I assume that that is a dearth time or the hive was weak, and that the supers were removed at that point, and also that the strips were correctly applied in the brood area of the hive. The post then mentioned putting a sticky board under the hive recently and finding dead mites in considerable numbers. Again, I quote: >We have been having unseasonably warm temps here in SW Missouri, >so yesterday I decided to uncover the back and install a sticky >board to check for mite drop. After five hours I counted nine >mites, most still alive, and today, after 22 hours, counted 20 >mites. The 20 included the original nine and almost all of the >mites appear dead. This seems to indicate that the hive currently is not under Apistan treatment and that this is *natural* mite drop. There are a number of logical conclusions that can be drawn from the facts given. We do not have sufficient information to choose among them. 1. The hive was successfully treated and subseqently re-infested from an other nearby hive collapsing. 2. The treatment was not completely sucessful and a sufficient number of mites survived it to build into the current infestation. That second option, in turn, could indicate that the summer treatment was a failure due to incorrect application, defective product (bad manufacture, left in the sun, etc.) or resistant mites among the original population. In any case, that leaves the problem of analysing the situation and deciding on a course of action. The important questions are 1. What does this observed mite drop indicate in terms of risk to the hive? and 2. What control agent can be used to control these mites when and if such a measure is indicated? Again assuming that nothing was done recently other than opening the back access and slipping in a sticky board of the normal sort, 20 mites dropping means that there are quite a few mites in the hive. Since we know little about the amount of brood or even queen-right state of the hive other than the statement that >It seems to have a good population is is just >finishing it's second gallon of 2:1 syrup with fumidil, we must again assume that it is normal and may have a frame or two of brood. If no brood, then the dynamics will be different, since *all* the mites will be without an opportunity to reproduce and will be wintering and aging, exposed, on the adult bees. In this latter case they would be much more vulnerable and also their expansion would be temporarily checked, but they would still be sucking haemolymph and weakening adults. In this case we would expect natural mite drops that are relatively large in number compared to the actual total mite population as the mites age and/or are damaged without protection or replacement. In this case, there is likely no rush to treat until the beginning of brood rearing. However all the mites are now exposed and very vulnerable to any treatment that occurs. If they have brood, then there is a hidden and protected mite population, and, moreover, younger mites are replacing the older individuals that drop. The natural drop count will thus represent a smaller proportion of the total mite population numbers, and the same number dropping will indicate a significantly more serious infestation than in the previous case. I really do not know how many mites a hive can tolerate, since it so much depends on the geographical location, the bees, the time of year, and probably a number of other factors. I have heard of bees tolerating fairly high loads. Nonetheless, a drop such as described does indicate that a treatment of some sort will likely be necessary soon. Since we really do not know -- or care to find out -- the point at which the bees will collapse, most beekeepers will be thinking of treating sooner, rather than later. Then the question is whether Apistan is working, and how well. There are a number of ways, and the simplest is likely to just get some Apistan(r) and insert it for a day or two and track the mite drop numbers. Then remove it and try an alternate method. Personally, I use formic acid, as would most of those in the free world, but in this particular case I believe that formic may not be prudent. CheckMite, is available and effective and not closely related to Apistan, so it would be a logical choice. Insert it according to instructions, and track the mite drop for a day or two. Comparing the mite drops over time under the two treatments will give you and idea if the Apistan is working. If Apistan is working you should knock down most of the phoretic mites in the first day or two, assuming the bees are sufficiently active to contact the strips, and the number dropping should then diminish fairly quickly. If you get an initial rise in the drop immediately on inserting the second treatment, then fluvalinate has been losing effectiveness on your mites, and now only gets some -- but not all -- of the mites, or takes longer than it should. This is my understanding of the whole thing, but I am certainly not an expert. I hope that others will help me out if I have made any errors or missed anything. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:20:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Better for what purpose Bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm grateful for good work done by generations of breeders, and enthusiastic about the promise of hygienic bees. However, what we desire of bees is not always uniform, and we don't always get what we want without side effects. I have the European contingent of a U.N. of bees here and they're all different, useful, and nice. For instance, my Cordovans make no surplus honey but make loads of bees, but they are so good at nursing brood, and so sweet to handle for these manipulations, that I will keep a colony of Cordovans just to raise queens from brood of other stock, and for a ready supply of bees and brood. I have some Carniolans that make lovely sections when others can make none, and they are gentle, but they learned to go backwards through a triangle board escape like it wasn't there, and they are the most opportunistic potential robbers in the apiary. I have some Caucasians (not all) that are so swarmy that they make juicy swarm cells even in chilly late October, but they made more nice sections than two average colonies, and do not get Varroa when their neighbors do. I do only sections for harvest, but keep some bees making winter stores on frames for the section makers. Must the stores makers be the same as the section makers? Mightn't one even breed a strain or two just for the type of operations being done? Should I avoid Cordovans because they don't make much honey? Should I breed stupid bees to make them robberless? Is swarminess the big issue for colonies making sections where I can't trust any bees not to swarm anyway? Granted, these characteristics might be anathema in a different operation. Breeding is like any other endeavor: the larger challenge is understanding both extensively and intensively what we wish to accomplish; the smaller challenge is breeding the bees. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:24:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Heating (was Re: Killing spores in wax and honey) In-Reply-To: <199911230911.EAA08415@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "The most used heating conditions appear to be 30 minutes at 140 to 150 F. > In general, lower temperatures, even for much longer times, will not be > effective." He seems to be saying that to produce honey that stay liquid > for a good period you need to EXCEED pasteurisation conditions. > > I know there is MUCH in the logs about temperature. And I have gone over > it. But this temperature seems high to me. I took a look too, and I know I've covered this before, so I checked the "Substring search" checkbox and used "liqu AND temp" as the "Search for" key and "allend OR dicka" for "The author's address is or contains" key at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html. (This is the direct URL of the BEE-L search site. I usually recommend people go there via the entrance URLs mentioned in my .sig below because there are a number of other useful items listed on the BEE-L pages (below) besides the search. Such items include a list of problems people may have posting, the BEE-L guidelines, the original welcome messages, other list addresses, etc. -- in other words a complete BEE-L toolkit for newbie and veteran alike). Yes, in searching, I found a lot of detail that I won't repeat here in several of the 19 posts that came up, but I should expand on one of the points, since I guess I did not state it clearly enough. It is the trade secret to making honey stay liquid for a long time on the shelf, and also the main reason for major damage to natural honey on the way to the store shelf. It is also the reason for the puzzlement that intelligent beekeepers universally experience when initially encountering the heat processes used in the commercial packing of honey. When honey comes into a processing facility in Canada, and most other places, in a drum, it is usually solid. In fact, producers often wait for it to set up before shipping because the chance of loss due to puncture and/or spillage en route is reduced if the honey is hard. Thus, the honey needs to be gotten out of the drum into and into a liquid state for processing. The almost universal solution, used for many, many years, is to either melt the honey in drums in a hot room, and then dump into a tank, or to invert the drums in a heat cabinet and let the honey run, as it melts, into a tank where it is held at about 110 to 120 degrees F for many hours. There are some variations on this, but this is basically how everyone does it. AFAIK. The logical question by anyone who has read all the info about honey is "Why do they do this?". I think I alluded to it before, but here is the reason stated clearly: holding honey at the 110 to 120 degree (F) point for several days while stirring is the only cheap and easy method that results in honey that will stay liquid a very long time, and every packer knows this. Even if commercially bottled honey is flash heated to 160 degrees F to filter, it has likely been held at the lower temperature for a considerable period. There are a number of reasons that the packers hold the honey at this temperature, besides the question of staying liquid after packing: they usually need to blend honies from different sources to achieve a consistent product and to use all the varieties that they receive. It takes time to melt the various drums and to get them blended. They need time to evaluate and adjust a batch before bottling. The holding vat is usually where this takes place. While it is conceivable to have an ideal system that chips solid honey from each drum and flash melts it, stirs it ultrasonically (instead of holding and stirring at 115 degrees), pasteurises and filters it in a matter of moments, and then quickly bottles and cools it, the fact that each drum may have unique characteristics would result in a product that varied widely and brought complaints from both stores and consumers. Moreover, packers prefer to fill containers with hot honey, since this helps ensure that the jar itself does not contain nuclei that would hasten crystallization. I am not saying that advanced , gentler processing systems do not exist, but I have not heard of it and to my knowledge, even the newest plants still use the old methods described here. I'd love to hear if anyone knows of any plants using gentler, more advanced techniques. Packing is a damned if you do and damned if you don't proposition that involves many compromises. No packer will ever produce honey that is as good as the honey that comes out of a beekeeper's tap -- or as bad either. The packers' products will always be in the middle: the honey coming out of the plant will always be significantly degraded from the average quality of the incoming honey, at least as long as the standard methods described above are used. Since this method is cheap and convenient and low tech, and since most consumers cannot detect the damage to the product, I cannot see it going away soon. > Do you think the conditions listed by Townsend for pasteurisation will also > be sufficient for long term liquefying? Apparently not. Liquid honey is a product that requires heat treatment beyond the minimal amounts necessary for pasteurisation if it is to stay liquid for long, unless it is made from a honey that naturally wants to stay liquid, and most honies in my experience do not; or somehow processed by a method that will have the same effect as holding for many hours at 100 to 120 degrees F. Unfortunately, the processing of honey is a topic that is subject to much secrecy, hypocrisy and misrepresentation. I hope that I have been able to shed a little light. allen ---- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:17:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Killing spores in wax and honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Ted Fischer quoted a study below on infant botulism in part: By food exposure history, honey was significantly associated with type B infant botulism (P = 0.005). In California, 29.2% (12/41) of hospitalized patients had been fed honey prior to onset of constipation; worldwide, honey exposure occurred in 34.7% (28/75) of hospitalized cases. Of all food items tested, only honey contained C. botulinum organisms. On household vacuum cleaner dust specimens and five soil specimens (three from case homes, two from control homes) contained Clostridium botulinum. The known ubiquitous distribution of C. botulinum implies that exposure to its spores is universal and that host factors contribute importantly to the pathogenesis of infant botulism. However, honey is now an identified and avoidable source of C. botulinum spores, and it therefore should not be fed to infants." Please note some problems with the above conclusion: 1. Only one third of the patients even were fed honey before becoming ill. No comparison data on the rate of feeding honey to children of similar age is given. Without this comparison data you cannot conclude that honey was in any way involved in this problem. If one third of infants in the area were fed honey one would expect that about one third of those who experienced infant botulism to have been fed honey but that in no way implies that honey is in any way involved. 2. The authors state "The known ubiquitous distribution of C. botulinum implies that exposure to its spores is universal and that host factors contribute importantly to the pathogenesis of infant botulism." If this is true i.e. that exposure to the spores is universal it surly follows that any dietary source is insignificant in this disease because everyone is exposed no matter what they eat. So the authors contradict themselves. First the authors go beyond their data and then they contradict themselves - it begins to sound like they had an agenda. Honey is singled out and given a bad rap based on faulty logic and ungrounded conclusions. In fact there are earlier studies that show a positive effect from including honey in formula fed to premature infants. These earlier studies actually have control comparison data to back up their conclusion that honey is beneficial to premature infants. The more one looks into this the more it looks like an urban legend. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:39:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AS Subject: Re: MAKING YOUR OWN FOUNDATION SHEETS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mark, if you or some of your friends are interested in making wax foundation, the best way is to make it with rollers. But be careful, the machines sold in the US and advertized in the ABJ, (from Tom Industries), are nothing but garbage. Donīt waste your hard earned money in litter. Try better the machines from Germany, as Herzog or Rietsche. Best regards, Andreas www.colmenaressuizos.co.cl ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:28:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: APIS Newsletter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some newer BEE-L members may not be aware of Tom Sanford's monthly electronic newsletter. It is the oldest internet beekeeping newsletter and IMO the best reflection of ongoing beekeeping history and current thinking in the USA available anywhere and it is free. Historical copies can be seen on the web at http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis.htm Any who wish to get this free monthly newsletter by email can subscribe as follows: To electronically subscribe, send the following to listserv@lists.ufl.edu: subscribe Apis-L First Name Last Name Obviously one should replace "First Name Last Name" in the above line with one's own real first and last name :) allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:50:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Killing spores in wax and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I came to many of the conclusions that Blane had, that honey should not be singled out. However, I now agree that we should not give infants less than a year old any honey. The reason is that studies of randomly acquired samples of honey had botulism spores in most of the samples. This also agrees with the study which said that Botulism spores are fairly pervasive in all foods, including honey. For anyone over one year, the digestive tract handles the spores with little difficulty. The key here is risk. Some infants below one year cannot handle Botulism spores. Most can. Botulism is in many honeys. So why not wait until they are one when the risk is eliminated? And that includes all home prepared foods. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:57:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Better Bees In-Reply-To: <199911240500.AAA17211@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings! I think the discussion has been very interesting so far. I must say that I am open to all points of view , but I regard every one with a healthy dose of scepticism. If the results of bee breeding were obvious, then there would be no question. Consider this quote: "In a world of retail research, who can trust the results? Increasingly, academic science overlaps with pharmaceutical marketing. Scientists are not required to disclose their corporate ties; individual schools have rules for dealing with the issue, but even if a scientist's work turns out to be compromised, there's no guarantee that doctors or patients will ever know. If you think science is neatly split between research in independent university labs and in companies that produce products for profit, you're about 20 years behind." --By Tinker Ready, _Boston Phoenix_ --> See the article online at: http://www.utne.com This isn't about bees, but it may apply. Researchers may not always have our interests at heart... PB Peter Borst plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Graham Law Subject: Queen Emerging Observations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I have an interest in observation hives and have kept one in our house for several years. Last year I videoed some very interesting behaviour when the first queen emerged after swarming. Basically the bees seemed to restrict the access of the free virgin queen to the remaining queen cells and were very rough on her. Also the remaining queens seemed to be confined within their cells. A lot of piping was going on from these confined queens. This year I wished to see exactly what was going on and try to video a queen piping within a cell. I got the hive to the point of swarming and just as the first Q cells were sealed I carefully cut them out and cut a rectangular slot down the side about 4mm x 12mm. I then fused the cell to a pre prepared cover slide that would offer low thermal inertia, and inserted three such cells back into the hive. The grubs were not physically harmed by this operation, as there was plenty of space around the grub at that stage. The atmosphere within the cell would be lost but I figured that as the cell capping is porous this was not significant. I filmed the pupae’s rapidly changing into mature queens without any apparent problem. Disappointingly there was little piping, so that will have to wait until next year. On emerging all the queens were killed by balling which took a long time. Up to five days before death. On a second attempt my first impressions of queen confinement was confirmed. By distracting the surrounding worker bees using of a small scented probe tainted with Fabi Spray repellent allowed the confined queen to emerge/escape immediately. This possibly explains why so many beekeepers have witnessed emerging queens, and why it is good advice to leave alone until the queens have emerged naturally. I have all this on video. Q?. Has anyone got any ideas about this, as I cannot find this phenomenon documented anywhere? Best Regards, Graham Law Graham@gandboss.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:39:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: 'Pat Henderson' Subject: Wiring & Embedding Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently bought out a beekeeper that had not worked bees for a good 10 years. One of the items I got was a box that contained a Dadant Wiring & Embedding Board, model number M00813. It was just the way it came from Dadant. It had never been put together. There was a package of loose parts still in a sealed plastic bag. It looks like everything was there except instructions. I called my local Dadant dealer in Waverly, NY. They didn't have anything. Nor did Dadant in Illinois. This item has not been sold by Dadant for the last several years. I'm in hopes somebody will have this unit and will be able to help me set it up; maybe even have their original instructions. My real problem is how to wire it, and then use it. I would certainly appreciate any help as I plan to make about 2000 frames this winter. In the past I have used the spur embedder and this unit appears to have the potential of saving some time. I still like wax foundation in my brood chambers. Thanks, Pat Henderson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 06:59:42 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: heating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan- I heat my honey to 140 degrees F. I'm not sure how long it remains in the sumps(3), but when it reaches the last pump the temp has gone to 140-142 degrees. The honey remains in the bulk tank overnight to cool down, and let the air settle. I sell about 250,000 lbs a year, and have no problem with crystals. Of course once it has been packaged, it must be kept in a heated room, unless it can be kept frozen(unheated shed in winter). As far as killing yeast spores-why? Yeast won't grow in properly cured honey - will it? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:38:35 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hayward Subject: Re: Tickner Edwardes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I too really enjoyed reading The Beemaster of Warrilow - very prosaic and it also contained some interesting snippets of information. One was how the Beemaster used oil of wintergreen smeared on himself to avoid getting stung when trying to cut wild colonies from trees in the woods. Has anyone tried this and does it work?? Anything to avoid a few stings from those nasty colonies. I'm also interested to know if the other books are as good or better than the Beemaster..., and whether they have also been re-published or whether I will just have to keep searching the second hand stores. Yours in beekeeping from Oz Mark Hayward ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:11:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Hygienic bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Thanks to all who replied to my request for help on this subject. I am going to experiment with the system used by Dr Marla Spivak from Minnesota next year, and some of my Irish fellow beekeepers are going to do the same. Two further questions come to mind - is there a preferred time of the year to carry out this experiment and should it be carried out more than once per season on the colonies concerned? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Oil of wintergreen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark wrote: > One was how the Beemaster used oil of wintergreen smeared on himself to avoid >getting stung when trying to cut wild colonies from trees in the woods. Has >anyone tried this and does it work?? Anything to avoid a few stings from those >nasty colonies. Please be careful. Oil of wintergreen can be absorbed through the skin. Though harmless in small doses, as when used as a flavoring, in sufficient quantity it can be toxic, even fatal. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:54:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Tickner Edwardes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark Hayward wrote: >I too really enjoyed reading The Beemaster of Warrilow - very prosaic and it >also contained some interesting snippets of information. One was how the >Beemaster used oil of wintergreen smeared on himself to avoid getting >stung >when trying to cut wild colonies from trees in the woods. Has >anyone tried >this and does it work?? Anything to avoid a few stings from >those nasty >colonies. Bill Morong countered: Please be careful. Oil of wintergreen can be absorbed through the skin. Though harmless in small doses, as when used as a flavoring, in sufficient quantity it can be toxic, even fatal. ******* Quite some time ago, an old man who had kept bees in Russia told me that they had used clove oil smeared on their hands to calm the bees. I tested it out. Even though clove is very expensive, I learned that it can be diluted a great amount with regular alcohol (ethanol), and it still worked out very well for me. For a time I thought of patenting it under the trade name, E-Z-B and going into business. However, other more pressing matters intervened, and I never got arount to it. I suspect such compounds work in the same manner as how smoke may work --- by hampering the odor sensing ability of bees for a short while. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ******* * * "The history of physics is the history of giving up cherished ideas." * * Andrew Strominger, Harvard physicist (1999) * **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:55:22 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Tickner Edwardes In-Reply-To: <199911261430.JAA15001@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Nov 99, at 8:38, Mark Hayward wrote: One was how > the Beemaster used oil of wintergreen smeared on himself to avoid getting > stung when trying to cut wild colonies from trees in the woods. Has > anyone tried this and does it work?? Anything to avoid a few stings from > those nasty colonies. I have never tried this as an idea, but have recently been testing a new product we've been asked to add to our product line which might be better than wintergreen. It's called Liquid Smoke. This stuff is really interesting, as you can spray it on yourself. It might be better if I explain. Sold as a concentrate, mixed with water 1oz to 15ozs water in a spray bottle, and used instead of a smoker! A quick spritz across the entrance and the bees run in, unlike smoke it doesn't disipate so quickly, so the hive is contolled longer, another spritz across the frame tops and away you go. We used it during the last few days of our season and were very pleased with the results. Jean, my wife suffers with bee stings to her hands on opening a hive, we believe it's something to do with the 'change', sprayed it on her hands before opening, 'presto' no stings. Late in the season we forgot to make up a 'shaker' nuc, this is used to shake out all our breeder baby nucs into. So we went to 6 different hives, took a frame from each with adhering bees, sprayed them down with Liquid Smoke, plus some shaken bees and made up a big 6 frame nuc. Next day we opened them up to add a queen in a regular cage, not one dead bee! Incidently they also released the queen quickly and in two days we found eggs. I can see a lot of advantages in using Liqiud Smoke, less problem looking for smoker fuel, certainly safer in dry conditions, and if you have trouble keeping your smoker lit, say no more!! As a sting preventer it could be sprayed onto clothing and the bees would just ignore the wearer. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Beekeeping Jacket **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:10:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Smoke substitutes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:55 PM 11/26/1999 -0500, David Eyre wrote: >I have never tried this as an idea, but have recently been testing a >new product we've been asked to add to our product line which might >be better than wintergreen. > It's called Liquid Smoke. This stuff is really interesting, as you >can spray it on yourself. It might be better if I explain. > Sold as a concentrate, mixed with water 1oz to 15ozs water in a >spray bottle, and used instead of a smoker! A quick spritz across the >entrance and the bees run in, unlike smoke it doesn't disipate so >quickly, so the hive is contolled longer, another spritz across the >frame tops and away you go. This past season I tried once, and only once, a supposedly wonderful smoke substitute, that may or may not be similar to what David describes, called Fabi-Spray. It was horrible, for the following reason. There seem to be three levels of awareness on the part of the bees to intrusion: 1. Awareness of the keeper's presence in the hive that does not seem to be alarm. In this awareness the bees can be herded upon the frames with tiny wisps of smoke, puffs of breath, and with the fingers. The bees continue their tasks, dances are uninterrupted, and the queen continues to lay on a frame held in the hand. 2. Alarm, accompanied by at least a tiny transient whiff of the banana oil smell. The bees eat honey, and are less responsive to being herded. 3. Defeat, accompanied by a very indistinct smell vaguely reminiscent of tom-cat urine. The bees are very quiet but essentially immobile and impossible to herd. The problem with the Fabi-Spray was that no matter how little was sprayed, the bees went immediately to the third level, which precluded convenient manipulation. I reserve the third level for emergencies, such as having quickly to cut supersedure cells and to install a new queen on a cold, sleety day, with worse weather coming, to minimize loss of brood. What level of awareness does Liquid Smoke induce? Are there other products that easily maintain the first level of awareness and capable of being administered delicately enough to facilitate moving the bees about precisely at will? Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:13:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: AFB, CONTROL W/O ANTI-BIOTICS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have received a catalogue form Northern Bee Books today and on the first page is an advert to a book by Mark Gookwin & Cliff Van Eaton about the "Elimination of American Foulbrood without the use of Drugs". It would appear to be of New Zealand origin (the book I mean!) Has anyone read this or can comment on the method used? Harry, Scottish Bee Issues:- http://www.luichartwoollens.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:07:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mac and Nancy Hedgpeth Subject: FW: altering Ph in bees Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- From: "Mac and Nancy Hedgpeth" To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: altering Ph in bees Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999, 12:12 PM A first year beekeeper whom i have been mentoring has an interesting theory re: Ph balance in bees and the relationship to overall health but also the possibility of not being as susceptible to the parasitic mites. Ph balance in humans can be altered to some degree and some believe this helps fight off illness etc. ie. 1 tbls. of vinegar a day and so on. He has introduced certain herbs and natural ingredients into sugar syrup and fed this last spring and fall. I have been somewhat sceptical but also interested to monitor this over time. He feels so positive about this that there were no meds of any kind used. I did not test with a board this fall only uncapped drone brood to try and convince him to use apistan but found no mites. There are no other bees in his area i know of so monitoring for mites will need to be ongoing for 1-2 seasons i figure. Maybe the mites will start gagging on the bees! How sweet it would be--- any thoughts? mac ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:24:28 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: Killing spores in wax and honey In-Reply-To: <199911242145.QAA10760@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:50:39 -0500 Send reply to: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Killing spores in wax and honey To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu For those that are interested I have compiled a list of references and their abstracts at : www.airborne.co.nz/botulism.html There is also a link to a PDF version of this compilation. I would be happy to add any references I have missed. Major points in all this... o US is the country with greatest no. of *recorded* cases. o US has recorded highest rate per capita. o Geographical location is *highly* important. o Breast feeding strongly linked to occurance of Infant Botulism. o Breast fed babies recover faster. o Death rate is approx 4% of cases. My interpretation of the material is that honey has been unfairly singled out, but it has now passed into urban myth territory from where we cannot retrieve it. However we do have to be on our guard as evidenced by a recent press release from Ministry of Health in New Zealand. This was pointing out that honey should not be fed to infants in NZ - when : 1. NZ has the highest per capita honey consumption in the World 2. There has never been a recorded instance of Infant Botulism. More disturbing in this case was the appaling lack of understanding of the officials involved in this case. They believed that the warning they were giving was due to the risk of Botulism poisoning (associated with canned/preserved foods) from honey. Most health proffessionals do not have time to review the literature and pick up the party line. Misunderstandings as the one above have to be constantly rebutted. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz We Accept MS Word 2.0 Files, Excel 4.0, Corel Draw 8.0, *.BMP, *.JPG, *.GIF *.TIF, *.PCX