From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 13 07:13:02 2000 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08347 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02334 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:13:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200002131213.HAA02334@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:13:00 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9912B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 85973 Lines: 1844 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:32:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: The Way Back to Biological Beekeeping Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anyone wishing to read through the entire set of emails from Dee Lusby constituting "The Way Back to Biological Beekeeping" can find them at this URL. http://www.birkey.com/BLB/Beekeeping/index.html - Barry > pointing out the many huge posts originating from Arizona that we had been > sitting on pending an idea of what to do with them. FWIW, those who went to > http://www.onelist.com/community/beekeeping and read them, and commented back > to > me thanked us for not posting the articles to BEE-L, nonetheless I hope that > those with enquiring minds and a little time on their hands will read them, > and > try to glean some useful conclusions from them. They intrigue me and I cannot > quite believe there is nothing at all at the bottom of it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:59:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nathalie Lautier Subject: Song of the queen Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hello everybody Would someone know if there are apis mellifera is present in Madagascar? We would like and record the sound that young queens do when they come out and to film their behavior as they kill each others I know that this behavior exist in Apis Mellifera, because, i already have filmed it. But maybe other bees do that? Would anybody have more informations? Nathalie Nathalie Lautier 9 Villa de l'Adour 75 019 Paris France Tel: (33) 1 42 06 80 24 E-mail: nlautier@bigfoot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Treatment for mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Peter Borst [mailto:plb6@CORNELL.EDU] wrote: > ... I am constantly baffled by beekeepers who state simply that > they will not use coumaphos. If fluvalinate fails to work after a > while and you don't use something else, the bees die! Fortunately we > have a much better alternative in formic acid, which should be > readily available soon. But I would suggest we use every *legal* > method to keep the bees alive. I am perhaps the most vocal in the school "No Coumophos U" and have been taken to task by many over my statement of "I will watch my bees die before I use coumophos!". I suppose I should clarify that statement a bit, and no, I am not backing down. I WILL watch my bees die before I use coumophos. I never cared for the chemical merry-go-around as Andy called it, but I am on that merry-go-around; TM treatments spring and fall (dust, no patties), fumidil-B (2 gallons medicated syrup 2:1 in the fall if I can get my bees to take that much and 1 gallon medicated syrup 1:1 in the spring) and currently Apistan(R), spring and fall. I'm simply drawing the line at coumophos. There are a lot of alternatives to combat mites before resorting to coumophos. IPM is the hot topic in the industry these days. Drone trapping, queen confinement, screened bottom boards, oils of essence (which I have not yet tried), and at long last the gel formulation of formic acid will be available next season! I suspect there may be some mite relief associated with shook swarming too by breaking the brood cycle, although reinfestation will be a problem. Only after I have exhausted all the alternative methods will I be forced to watch my bees succumb to the enemy. A strategy currently being promoted is the possibility that you want some hives succumbing to mites anyway - culls out the weak bees and propagates less-than-super mites. Aaron Morris - adamantly resisting coumophos' siren song! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:27:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: beekeeping course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Hernando County Beekeepers Association in conjunction with the Hernando County Cooperative Extension Service will be offering a one day Beekeeping Workshop for beginning beekeepers on March 4, 2000. The cost of the workshop is $25.00. Participants will receive a copy of "First Lessons in Beekeeping" and lunch will be provided. speakers will include Dr. M.T. (Tom) Sanford, Extension Beekeeping Specialist from the University of Florida - Laurence Cutts Assistant Chief Apiary Inspector and James Alderman Bee Inspector For more information about registration contact: Ed Mabesoone e-mail apism@earthlink.net Tel (352) 596-6263 after 7:00 PM Karen Tuttle e-mail merryhillfarm@juno.com Tel (352) 796-0123 after 7:00 PM Hernando County Cooperative Extension Service Tel (352) 754 4433 8-5 Monday thru Friday Ed Mabesoone The Mabesoone Family Apiary Ed Mabesoone's Beekeeping Video's http://www.robmerco.com/tmfa.htm Herb/Norma Holly-B Apiary P.O. Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/books.html http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee http://pages.ivillage.com/wh/stonycritters/index.html "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 07:17:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Re: caucasian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- vconnell@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote: > Does anyone know of commercial queen breeders in > Australia, New Zealand or > Canada who sell queens which are predominantly > caucasian ? > Malcolm Connell > Cook's bee supplies of Aurora, Ontario used to get hybrid Caucasians. I phoned them this morning. They said to call in the spring to see if they were getting any. There address is: 91 Edward St. Aurora, ON L4G 1W1 Tp phone them: phone/fax (905) 747-4811 or 1-888-645-9722 And there hours are: 9-5 Monday to Friday 9-12 Saturday. They got them from a broker in Austrailia. If you want more info. contact them. Hope this helps. And by the way, why do you want caucasian's anyway? I thought nobody here uses them, cause they weren't so good. I wait to be corrected. Signed, Carmenie ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:09:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: SAFB is a New and Distinct Contagious Disease Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Allen, I have been considering this for a couple of days to try to improve my reply. So here goes. >Well, it crossed my mind, but what I see here is something that needs to be >recognized as a distinct new problem and the word 'bad' doesn't make it distinct >enough, just makes it seem a bit worse, not VERY DIFFERENT. Hmm not sure it is that different more like the old AFB all beekeepers knew and feared before we had antibiotics to treat it. In fact, the only way to know if it is antibiotic resistant is to send in a sample for a lab test to see how it responds to oxytet so it really doesn't sound that different to me. Now I do understand your point that it needs to be dealt with differently since it does not respond to our usual medication. I have no real objection to the SAFB label but just am not sure it is really all that different. I do know that one cannot tell in the field by looking at a broodcomb if it is regular or bad AFB but if you know treatment history one can make an educated guess. > In fact OTC resistance was found in the US for the first time within a > year of the publication of that article when an inspector found some > AFB that was responding to treatment and sent in a sample for testing. >Okay, but where did it come from? Does anyone really know? Why assume >spontaneous generation occurred when there is a simple and credible alternate >theory? Opinions are not facts. Enquiring minds need PROOF that the US and >Canadian samples are not descended from the Argentine AFB. Proof can be had if some researcher will do the DNA fingerprinting work but AFAIK that work has not been done yet. One observation from the researchers is that what we are finding in NA is not nearly as resistant as that found in SA could suggest no recent direct connection. Again, not proof just observation. >Until we get such proof, I must prefer the most simple and most obvious >explanation -- that the disease is imported and the outbreaks are related. It >is very hard for me to believe that after many, many uneventful years of use >and abuse of sulfa and oxytet, that suddenly, independently and spontaneously >AFB at *apparently* isolated locations all over the hemisphere is spontaneously >developing resistance. When we first found resistance I figured that it was equally likely that it was accidently imported or selected here by our usage of oxytet. Until the DNA fingerprinting is done we will never be sure which or if in fact both are involved. The important thing is that we know it is here and must deal with it. >It seems, however, that the most obvious explanation -- true or false -- happens >to be politically uncomfortable, and the least meritorious argument is the one >that makes the most people happy. Why is it that everyone looks the other way >when the question of importation is raised, or takes offence; and why is it that >those who bother to argue against the suggestion do not offer any proof. >Instead they dismiss this possibility out of hand and dwell happily on the >politically acceptable alternatives. >I realize that people *have* been looking for a common factor between the >breakdowns of this new AFB disease, and have settled on extender patties as an >explanation: they see extender patties as something new in the administration of >drugs and assume that everything else is the same as ever. It also conveniently >allows everyone to blame powerless beekeepers rather than well connected >international traders, the government scientists, the extension people and the >regulators. My point is simply that we may have selected for it here as well in other words we may have done it to ourselves. Now that is not a comfortable thought but from what we know about development of drug resistance it makes sense. The idea that we imported it is somewhat comfortable since it did not happen because of what we were doing so there may not be reason to change. Again, we need to change the way we approach brood disease control here in North America because of the drug resistance which is now here but it is nice to be able to blame the problem on someone else. Of course if we selected it here we can also do something about it by changing our management practices and avoid repeating the same thing again in a few years with another antibiotic. Experience in medicine has shown that the development of multiple drug resistance is much quicker than development of the first case of resistance so to continue on the treatment treadmill seems unwise to me. >But hold on there a minute. There is something wrong with the extender patty >scenario. Sulfathiazole apparently uses the same mechanism against AFB as >oxytet does. Sulfathiazole is a very persistent compound which stays on and on >in hives, much like the oxytet in extender patties. If continuous application >of such an antibiotic were going to cause widespread independent episodes of >resistance, why did this not happen when everyone was using sulfa? Sulfa was >universally used and much preferred to oxytet, except where EFB might be a >problem. Now I am not sure of the mechanism of action of these two drugs but tend to doubt that they work the exact same way. Sulfathiozole is not an antibiotic at all and the tetracyclines are which leads me to strongly suspect a different mechanism but I admit that I do not have any references here to actually find out if there is a common mode of action. Just the presence of a common mode of action does not mean cross resistance but does increase the possibility. >And, I wonder how much serious thought has been given to the idea of >communication between the bacteria, either through ubiquitous barnyard or human >associated bacteria coming into contact with AFB. It is no secret that there >has been widespread tolerance of antibiotics in such familiar and commonplace >bacteria and that the resistance to common antibiotic treatments has snowballed >recently in such organisms, organisms that are whisked around the world with >cattle, hogs and fowl... I tend to doubt transfer from other organisms for a couple of reasons. First such transfer occurs when both organisms grow together in the same environment. This does not occur in this case as the foulbrood bacteria grows only in honey bees while those other bacteria grow in other animals. Second the foulbrood bacteria itself produces one or more antibiotics which greatly reduce the growth of other bacteria in its host and it often found in pure or nearly pure culture in the infected larvae - a rather unusual case in nature. It seems much more likely that beekeepers selected for this drug resistance by their management practices i.e. exposure leads to resistance. > Second the > rise of antibiotic resistance does not require such transfer nor > mutation. Simply using an antibiotic will select for those organisms > in the target population which have such resistance. Each and every > use of the antibiotic will select for resistance that is already in > the population. >No argument here. But why now, and all over the place, not years ago? The >mechanisms of resistance may or may not involve mutation. It depends whether >there are any individuals in the population that normally have resistance. From >the zero incidence of resistance appearing over the first few decades of >antibiotic use against AFB, we must assume that the incidence of resistant >individuals in normal populations was a number very closely approaching zero, >and that mutation must have been necessary, or that the resistant members of >normal populations were not sufficiently fit to stand by themselves if selected. Maybe we used up our time. We selected for resistance for quite a while before it appeared and then it started to show up here there and everywhere. Once the selection had been applied ( drug used ) for a long enough time resistance showed up. This is really what seems to have happened with fluvalinate and varroa mites - after 10 years of use you have resistant mites starting to show up in more than one location. Now a little word about this. I have been very upset with those Apistan ads that blame misuse by beekeepers of fluvalinate on the development of resistance by the varroa mites - it just is not true any use selects for resistance not just misuse. After using Apistan according to all the label instructions for 10 years with nothing to rotate to you will have fluvalinate resistant varroa mites showing up. Any use not just misuse leads to ( selects for ) resistance. >I have no evidence of this -- other than anecdotal. Where can I get an >authoritative account that I can subject to scrutiny? Who has critiqued these >conclusions? Who has analyzed them for flaws and pursued alternate explanations >and commonalities? And, why were they so diligent? Were they finding that they >were unable to control AFB and therefore stepping up their treatment efforts? >One is not normally that diligent unless the problem is pretty bad. Here I suspect there may be a major difference between beekeeping in the US and Canada. Here south of the border there is so much exchange of broodcomb through sale of nucs, buying and selling frames of brood, exchange of combs between outfits, sale of used equipment, etc that many probably most commercial migratory beekeepers here are using a common pool of broodcombs. We have been able to do this since TM worked so well all we had to do was be diligent in our treatments and we did not have a disease problem. So there has been for years here a very good reason to be careful in your antibiotic treatments and make sure they were there in a timely fashion or you paid the price in disease. I don't know for sure of course but suspect you are a little more isolated north of the border and so don't have that incentive to medicate that we do. > In short, we probably have imported some > but we almost certainly also selected some of our own. >Okay, Thanks for conceding the point about probable importation. That was my >guess too. > >And, "almost certainly" is an interesting way of putting the possibility of our >having generated our own. > >IF we have not generated our own and we HAVE INDEED imported some, who is >responsible? Does it really matter? Fixing blame does not deal with the problem at hand namely dealing with antibiotic resistant AFB. It might be comforting but it is mostly a waste of time and effort when we must deal with the problem at hand. We are seeing the end of the usefulness of the most effective antibiotic treatment for AFB we are likely to ever see. We need to change our management practices if we are to survive in the current situation. Here in North America oxytetracycline AFB will be showing up in your area sometime fairly soon if it isn't there already and you must be ready and able to deal with it. The good thing about AFB is that most of the spread of this serious disease is due to movement of infected equipment by us beekeepers therefore we can greatly reduce the spread by changing our management practices. If we are doing it to ourselves, we can change that ourselves. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:11:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vivian Donahue Subject: bee candy In-Reply-To: <199912060508.AAA11454@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What about any ill effects of vinegar? I've been putting vinegar into my syrup since our discussion about it this summer, but now am concerned that it might have a similar effect. Does anyone have any answer to this? Vivian > Many years ago a researcher (Leslie Bailey) found that if no natural >nectar was coming in, feeding syrup containing cream of tartar (or >vinegar) caused dysentery, shortening the lives of the bees to one third >that of bees fed plain sugar syrup. This finding was written up at the ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:27:13 -0000 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Organization: Westgate, waterville Subject: Re: Treatment for mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Morris Sent: 08 December 1999 13:31 Subject: Re: Treatment for mites >I am onthat merry-go-around; > fumidil-B (2 gallons medicated syrup 2:1 in the fall if I can get my bees to > take that much and 1 gallon medicated syrup 1:1 in the spring) > Aaron Morris - adamantly resisting coumophos' siren song! I may be wrong but my memory of the instructions for using fumidil-B state the syrup should be 2:1, I wonder if the use of 1:1 syrup in the spring is actually beneficial, the osmotic pressure of the 1;1 syrup might disrupt the agent involved in the treatment ( that this agent is sensitive is indicated by the temperature range allowed for mixing the powder). Ruary Rudd rrudd@eircom.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:15:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: SAFB is a New and Distinct Contagious Disease Quoted material: ">IF we have not generated our own and we HAVE INDEED imported some, who is responsible? Does it really matter? Fixing blame does not deal with the problem at hand namely dealing with antibiotic resistant AFB. It might be comforting but it is mostly a waste of time and effort when we must deal with the problem at hand..." Now my response: If we imported the problem, then knowing who, how, why and when could be very valuable information in helping us not to import these kinds of problems in the future. We might as well NOT KEEP IMPORTING the problems if there is a way to avoid doing so. Of course, we have to deal with the problem at hand, but if the problem WAS imported, then knowing how it came to be imported would be very valuable information to help us prevent the same or a similar occurrence from happening in the future. Just my two cents worth. Layne Westover College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:48:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron's post shows that he considers himself cautious and conservative in treating his bees with medication etc, yet during the year he administers 3 gallons of sugar syrup, 2 doses of fumidil, 2 doses of Apistan and 2 treatments of terramycin. This suggests to me that either Aaron (this is not a personal attack on you Aaron but a matter that has arisen in my mind from reading many US posts from different contributors: your post is just the catalyst that has initiated this response) is suffering from hypochondria by proxy or else he has some very sick bees. A possible alternative diagnosis is that he is treating his bees for diseases that he does not know that they are suffering from and hang the expense. This does not seem likely as most beekeepers tend to be parsimonious. He does not mention the most effective treatment for Nosema (if he knows that is present and a problem): comb fumigation or renewal. If Apistan is as effective as advertised (98 per cent) it should not be necessary to treat twice a year. To do so can only accelerate the onset of resistance. I cannot comment on the double treatment of terramycin for AFB as I have seen it only twice (in other people's hives) in 20+ years of beekeeping but in the UK the only treatment is burning and burial followed by compensation from the Bee Disease Insurance Co which is paid for by your subscription to the Association. I am not aware of the price differential in the US between sugar and honey but have seen plenty of complaints about the tiny amount beekeepers get paid for their honey. I also see posts from the US about the higher prices paid for top quality, well presented honey. One cannot in good conscience sell honey that may contain recycled sugar. This means that the beekeeper must either dye any sugar fed so that it is unsaleable if it appears in the honey, or remove any such stores in the spring to feed to nucs etc or cease feeding sugar as far as reasonably practicable. By feeding sugar routinely as opposed to only when absolutely necessary there is a selection in favour of bees that NEED feeding as opposed to those that can winter economically on their own stores. The other side of the coin is that the beekeeper must not be greedy when taking the crop of honey. I am sorry if my opinions may appear a little over-vigorous in this post; I look forward to equally vigorous responses. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:13:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Subject: Re: beekeeping course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Hernando County Beekeepers Association in conjunction with the Hernando County Cooperative Extension Service will be offering a one day Beekeeping Workshop for beginning beekeepers The above was published on 8 December 1999. When people do this I would really like to know WHERE this place is. Could you have people also include the name of the city, state, and country when they are making these types of announcements? Mike in Excel, Alabama, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:58:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Aaron's post shows that he considers himself cautious and conservative in > treating his bees with medication etc, yet during the year he administers 3 > gallons of sugar syrup, 2 doses of fumidil, 2 doses of Apistan and 2 > treatments of terramycin. This suggests to me that either Aaron (this is not > a personal attack on you Aaron but a matter that has arisen in my mind from > reading many US posts from different contributors: your post is just the > catalyst that has initiated this response) is suffering from hypochondria by > proxy or else he has some very sick bees. Well Chris, I have stayed out of this discussion as we had it before and it didn't lead to anything but rather upset response from some of the participating members on the other side of the pond at the time. I have the greatest respect for Aaron, Allen and others but I fail to see the common sense in their arguing for prophylactic medication, even if that arguing has lost some of it's vigour lately...... Like you I don't use any medication at all (haven't got varroa yet due to a national plan that divides the country in zones and restrict bee movements between them) and never see more than 2-3 % winter mortality. I have tested for nosema a few times, but got very low levels ( if present at all). Once I saw AFB when visiting a hobby beekeeper in my neighbourhood, but not in my own bees. I know NO other beekeeper that medicates except for varroa. To me it seems obvious that the medication blocks the chance to find and eliminate the bees susceptible to disease, and hence destroy every opportunity for beekeepers to make a natural selection for resistance. I strongly believe this is why we don't have the situation here with the disease so often described by american beekeepers. Maybe the spring sugar feeding plays a part in winter losses too. As you said it will breed for "hungry" bees. They will produce plenty of brood early in the season and this might also be a stress factor before they can fly. So why don't a management system based on natural selection work there when it works here? That it works is proven in almost every other place than America. What makes american beekeepers so happy about paying for those drugs they really don't need? Or is everyone that use them certain about the need? I doubt that. Can it be a difference in attitude? When you pay for the drug you also transfer a bit of the responsibility to someone else. Hope that the shortcut will work this time too. But some things can't bee bought for money.....you have to participate yourself in the development, take your responsibility in keeping the bees healthy. Sure would have liked to hear Andys thoughts about this...... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:30:09 -0500 Reply-To: Patricia Holley Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Patricia Holley Subject: Re DE and SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been trying something new here and would like some feedback/ ideas from you. I've sprinkled DE in front of 2 of my hives in an area of about a foot around the landing board. When the pupae fall off the landing board they will fall into the DE and by crawing through, the DE will slice their bodies and they will dehydrate. My DE is food grade and I like this idea better than using a soil drench. The 2 hives I used had quite a few SHB. I will go back in the hives around the first week in Jan. to see results. Pros? Cons? Ideas? Thanks ED ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:52:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I myself intend to wait for a serious hit perhaps 50% hive mortality before I run for the latest organophosphate. As for spring feeding it is quite simple if you want honey from maples through dandylions in the northeastern USA you feed early to get hive strength booming. If you just want ornamental bees you don't need to feed. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:30:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) In-Reply-To: <199912110033.TAA05347@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > So why don't a management system based on natural selection work there > when it works here? That it works is proven in almost every other place > than America. What makes american beekeepers so happy about paying for > those drugs they really don't need? Or is everyone that use them certain about > the need? I doubt that. > I think there could be a number of issues at work in trying to find a correct answer to these questions. I think the first is "natural selection". Nature has no problem in ending the existance of a species. There have been more species taken out through nature than man could ever lay claim too. It should not be a problem to think that "nature" would have bees extinct in North America. Another issues is the environment one is trying to raise bees in. I do not medicate a hive unless I have observed a reason to do so. I do not see AFB in my hives yet my bees are from the same queen breeders that others who require medication use. There just seem to be areas where EFB and AFB will damage an operation without almost constant attention. Some of this could be a result of how well others in your area are taking care of thier hives, or how well your government is requiring others to take care of their hives. In many areas of the USA the bee inspection program is not doing well. As a result sources for AFB infection are becoming common. This problem should take care of itself in time but we do have a high density of beekeepers here and a lot of them are very mobil. The fact that commercial beekeeping can be a very low margin bussiness and you can see why some operators will "mask" an AFB problem with a dose of Anti-Biotics so they do not have to destroy hives. Add in the additional stress of the mites and the bees are having a lot of stress put on them. I am sure there are other factors I have not considered but I cannot discount that many on the list are good beekeepers and are not following a course of treatment without good reason. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Drutchas Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) > In the Champlain Valley of Vermont where I keep bees there is a commercial bee yard about every mile and a half. In Florida last winter I had a yard with one hundred hives that was about three miles from a yard of four hundred. Charly Mraz that worked all his life to create an AFB resistant bee had to treat in the Champlain Valley and in Florida you wouldn't even think about trying to keep bees alive without treating. Im not sure but I would bet beekeeping is quite different in Europe. Its all a numbers game. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a difference between backyard beekeepers and the commercial beekeepers treatment of bees. I can afford to experiment and allow losses that would break an commercial beekeeper, just to improve my stock. If I continued to have winter losses of half of my hives during the time I was refining what I wanted from my bees and was a commercial beekeeper, I would have gone broke. Forget pollination contracts. Bees would have not measured up and I would not have had enough hives. Also, the hobby beekeeper does not have to worry about all the outside pressures the commercial beekeeper has when pollinating. You bring your 5000 hives to Maine and pollinate blueberry fields with 55,000 other hives and all their attendant problems, you will medicate much more than I ever would. When I was in the military, I was given shots for every disease on the books when deploying outside the US. I never asked to forgo the shots and let natural selection take its course. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:18:44 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, << What makes american beekeepers so happy about paying for those drugs they really don't need?>> I believe this has to do with momentum, we do it this way because we have always done it this way. It reminds me of the old story about a prospector who loaded up his mule with supplies for his trip back to camp. He would place a hundred pounds of supplied on one side of the mule and a hundred pounds of rocks on the other side to balance the load. When asked why he did not divide the load evenly on each side and not use the rocks, he replied, "My daddy did it this way and if it was good enough for him it is good enough for me." <> I'll bet that the same folks who feed antibiotics to their bees when the bees are not sick, do not take antibiotics when they, themselves are not sick! <> An attitude is a terrible thing to waste, is it not? George Imirie, and Richard Taylor, have written extensively about the philosophy of life as well as in beekeeping. You can not separate them very effectively, one certainly reflects on the other. We all love these wonderful little bugs or we would not keep them, but how to do it well can be expressed very differently by well meaning individuals. Attitudes towards antibiotics has more to do with their use than cold hard facts. We can not always isolate facts from attitude during these discussions, and I think it counter productive to try. The moderators do a good job here keeping the momentum of the discussion going like a car moving along an icy road and bouncing along between two stone walls. Some stray off the road for a while but bounce back to continue on. I enjoy reading between the lines , it helps to get a feeling of the personalities involved. I enjoy getting to know you as well as learning from you. Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," def.= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 12/11/99 09:18:44 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 15:41:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Treatment, selection, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It would seem that our decisions to treat, or not to treat for mites, AFB, or whatever, and our ideas about breeding for traits, rest on our faith or lack thereof, in our ability to do a good job when we interfere with the natural events. I feel drawn to both sides of the discussion. Clearly, in choosing stock with which to requeen a colony, we interfere, even if the stock be feral in origin. Yet which of us would not choose stock from a resistant, gentle, non-swarmy, productive and hardy colony, regardless of origin, with which to replace the failing queen of a less than desirable colony? In principle the merit of letting the latter colony die is clear to me, until I am tempted to preserve at least that colony's investment in strength and life, arrogantly presuming to replace that single bee that shall entirely change the genetic future of that colony within a few weeks or months. And which of us would challenge our colonies with AFB to discover our resistant stock, if any? We could interminably debate the merits of natural selection versus our interference. Two considerations make that debate moot for me. The first is the lack of proof of superiority of one method. For example, AFB being known long before the advent of antibiotics, was thus not spawned by them. It persists despite modern measures, not being eradicated by them. The second consideration is my personal fault or weakness in not being sufficiently intrepid to follow the totally natural course. I must compromise. Firstly, I wish to give the bees the best opportunity to be be productive by diligence in meeting their needs. A trite idea, but lack of diligence is all too common. Simple measures like good location, protection from extreme elements, and provision of good ventilation admittedly facilitate survival of less than perfect stock, but less than perfect stock may possess badly needed genetic traits if we ever learn what to breed. Another truism is the need for good record keeping, often cited as an aid in selecting our stock. It may also may greatly help us to accommodate our less than perfect stock, all part of giving the bees the best opportunity to be productive. Perhaps it is ultimately wrong to medicate, and I'm trying to learn how to use natural controls effectively, but I simply cannot allow mites suck my bees' blood. In conclusion, I cannot determine whether big decisions like deciding on a course of treatment or little actions like often cleansing one's hive tool are most important. Perhaps both? Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 22:31:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > An attitude is a terrible thing to waste, is it not? It always takes some time to change it. Changing means we first have to admit to ourselves we been wrong and that is hard for most of us. > Attitudes towards antibiotics has more to do with their use > than cold hard facts. We can not always isolate facts from > attitude during these discussions, and I think it counter > productive to try. Now this is difficult. If we challenge someone's attitude, this person will automatically go into defence position and sometimes not be reachable with logic reasoning. Basically I agree with you, but we have to understand when a discussion is based on attitudes instead of facts. > The moderators do a good job here keeping the momentum > of the discussion going like a car moving along an icy > road and bouncing along between two stone walls. This list has done a tremendous jump upwards in quality due to the moderators. They deserve all respect for what they are doing. I am well aware of the difficulties involved in a change towards less chemicals in beekeeping in your part of the world. It will not be easy when so deep into the "chemical-merry-go-around" as Aaron called it. And the longer you wait, the harder it gets. Resistant, "hygienic" or whatever we call it, bees will not evolve in a year or two. It will take a number of years and hard work to get there. And it will have to include everyone. The general knowledge among beekeepers has to be better. When I read on this list; "I hope queen breeders will do testing for hygienic bees", I see that "leave_it_to_someone_else" philosophy again. When I read " I will start testing for hygienic bees myself" instead the journey towards less chemicals has started. Even a long journey starts with a first step...... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:39:07 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: TREATMENT FOR MITES (or anything) In-Reply-To: <199912100124.UAA01859@listserv.albany.edu> On 9 Dec 99, at 19:48, CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > A possible alternative diagnosis is that he is treating his bees for > diseases that he does not know that they are suffering from and hang the > expense. This does not seem likely as most beekeepers tend to be > parsimonious. > > He does not mention the most effective treatment for Nosema (if he knows > that is present and a problem): comb fumigation or renewal. If Apistan is > as effective as advertised (98 per cent) it should not be necessary to > treat twice a year. To do so can only accelerate the onset of resistance. As an expatriate Brit I can see both sides of the coin. It is considered cheaper to medicate for not existent disease than to take the time and trouble to sample hives and send these samples to a local lab for testing. Even if they know where to send them! We are constantly discussing this with our customers, and the ignorance regarding the need for medication frightens us. "Let's dump it in, just in case" is a very common approach of many beekeepers. I know a lot depends on your area, but we feed NO chemicals to our bees,(apart from Apistan) and haven't for the last 10 years, since we saw the light on chemical dependency. To date we haven't lost a hive to any of the standard bee diseases, touch wood. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Beekeeping Jacket **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:39:06 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: bee candy In-Reply-To: <199912090317.WAA29897@listserv.albany.edu> On 8 Dec 99, at 22:11, Vivian Donahue wrote: > What about any ill effects of vinegar? I've been putting vinegar into my > syrup since our discussion about it this summer, but now am concerned that > it might have a similar effect. Does anyone have any answer to this? There are many types of vinegar available, suppose a lot depends on which one you use. We have fed Apple Cider vinegar for a number of years which has effectively reduced our Nosema counts to zero, (by lab tests). As to ill effects, seen none. Even using controls~!!! ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:- Beekeeping Jacket **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:42:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barbara Belyea Organization: University of Calgary Subject: a message this time re medication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for the previous bad posting. Since the thread on preventive medication seems to reflect geographic and cultural differences, it would help me to know where the contributors are living. The server addresses seldom give this information. Thanks in advance. BB -- Barbara Belyea Dept of English, University of Calgary Calgary (Alberta) Canada T2N 1N4 vox: 403-220-4656/5470 fax: 403-289-1123 web: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~belyea/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:00:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Hive design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi beekeepers, Don't know if this is a good question to ask, and whether it willl be allowed through, but what do ye all think of David Eyre of the Bee Works Hive design? Is it as good as he claims it to be? Any of you out there tried it? I mean, just because I got 150 % more honey than my neighbor doesn't mean my type of hive is better than his. Could be a thousand things. Like to know some of your opions, personally or via this list. Thanks, Carmenie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 22:49:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David & Sarah Grew-Foss Subject: infested drones in December Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, I just pulled my Apistan strips and to my surprise two of my four hives had burr comb with all stages of drone brood present even though it is mid December. The hives are in double deeps. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area so we don't have as much down time but this is earlier than I expected. Both hives are strong, one I requeened last summer, the other was a swarm caught last spring that is such a lovely hive I didn't requeen it. After scraping the burr comb off I inspected for mites. The swarm hive had many visible mites when I put the strips in but the brood comb revealed no mites currently. The other hive had no visible mites when I put in the strips but currently over 50% of the drone brood had multiple mites. I examined 20 capped cells and found 24 mites in 12 cells. The Apistan strips I used, in this hive only, were ones I bought last year and although I kept them in their origanl package, out of the sun, my hunch is that they may have lost their effectiveness. I pulled out a few frames and saw a good brood pattern, no dead bood in cells, only one really beaten up set of wings. It was a bit chilly so I didn't want to inspect each frame. I have seen many orientation flights when the sun it out, but there have been quite a few dead bees out in front of the hive lately although until today I had no reason to count them on a daily basis. The bees solidly cover ten deep frames at this time. Do I retreat immediately with Apistan? For the record I had the Apistan in for 51 days and followed the directions. The hive in question was treated with four strips. For various reasons I was not able to put in sticky boards to count mite drop when I put the Apistan strips in or I would more about mite drop at that time. I had been planning to split both these hives this spring. Given that they are already raising drone brood when do you think I should consider doing this? The Eucalyptus is about to begin blooming but our wettest months have yet to come. Any help/opinions for this newbee are welcome. Learning frm my mistakes again. Sarah Grew Wilcat Canyon, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:12:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sarah, in the SF bay area, reports a hive with reasonably significant mite counts and says "Do I retreat immediately with Apistan? For the record I had the Apistan in for 51 days and followed the directions. The hive in question was treated with four strips." Sarah, you also reported that you had purchased the Apistan strips a year before you had used them, but kept them out of the sun and in the original package until use. You might want to call the manufacturer, (Wellmark International 800-248-7763), but I am reasonably certain they will tell you that under those conditions the strips were "as good as new". Unfortunately, it seems that you have mites resistant to fluvalinate, the active ingredient in Apistan. (That is not terribly surprising, given your location and the fact that hundreds of thousands of hives are annually imported into the area for almond pollination.) Thankfully, alternative products are available. One is Checkmite(tm). You have heard much about this from this forum. Personally, I only consider using it as an absolute last resort...and even then I might decline. The active ingredient is a very dangerous chemical. Further, as of the last advertisement I have it is not approved for use in California. If you wish to check on that or wish more information call Mann Lake (800-233-6663). The other is a formic acid gel. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the brand name. My understanding is that this is going to only be sold in a box containing 24 packages, for reasons having to do with ICC shipping regulations. With only two hives, you would have to share with a friend or perhaps your local bee club is planning on buying and distributing to members (which is perfectly legal). If this is not available now, it will be very soon. Call Betterbee, Inc. for more information (800-632-3379) from nine till five, Eastern Time. While you are waiting for the gel, assuming that is the route you wish to pursue, with only two hives you can practice some Integrated Pest Management. On a day that is above 50, pull the frames and gently open the sealed drone cells. A capping scratcher will do a good job, but rather than buy one, use a kitchen fork. Just drag the tines across the tops of the cells with enough pressure to make a hole in each. Do this every week or ten days until your gel comes and you use it for treatment. All you need do is put a tiny hone in each cell...any size hole will do. Once the hole is there the bees will uncap the cell and dispose of the larvae. The adult mites present might or might not be destroyed, but any mite larvae or eggs will be destroyed. Good luck, and I hope I have helped. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:36:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Treatments for bee diseases Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings! Referring back to my last post, I would like to emphasize that most of us are not keeping bees in isolation. If there are beekeepers within several miles/kilometers of your hives you are influenced by their practices. If there are bees near you with AFB or mites, you will eventually get these problems. Basically, there seem to be two camps. The first considers disease to be pandemic and chooses to take preventive measures. The second tries to treat on an as-needed basis. I don't see how an objective observer could condemn either approach. Quote from 1997 Apimondia Proceedings: "American foul brood was very important from the very beginning, as it is the only bee disease that has an epidemic evolution. That is why in many countries drugs are used for control... As the disease outbreaks again, even after a short ceasing of the therapy, the disease must be treated permanently." -W. Ritter, et al. Most commercial beekeepers have settled into a routine of preventive treatment that includes antibiotics, miticides, and introduction of new queens from selected stock. They believe with justification, that keeping bees would not be economically feasible without these methods. In modern beekeeping, a person may be responsible for the care of 1000 or more hives. Attention to individual may be simply impossible. And as the majority of bees in US and other countries are held by commercial beekeepers, it makes perfect sense for individuals to follow the practices of the majority, since we are concerned about the bee population as a whole. That said, it is worth studying the opposite point of view. I recently searched the Internet for standards for the production of "Organic Honey." Since honey's reputation as a pure product is slipping, I think it is a very worthy objective to to try to produce honey without using hazardous chemicals. But how to do it? The traditional treatment for AFB involves killing the hive and destroying or sterilizing the equipment. Currently there is no approved method in the US for killing bees, that I know of. Furthermore, this method presupposes an apiary inspection program, which we no longer have in most states. Finally, some method of tracking the supers is essential, since if a hive breaks down in summer, it has undoubtedly released spores into the honey supers, which will spread the infection. In other words, controlling AFB by the traditional route requires extreme diligence, with thorough brood nest inspection at least 3 times a year (spring, summer, fall). As far as varroa mites go, there are no chemical treatments accepted by the Maine Organic Farmers & Gardeners Association (MOFGA) nor The Nova Scotia Organic Growers Association (NSOGA) standards. Both associations accept menthol against tracheal mites. Interestingly, the Nova Scotia Assn. allows treatment (not prevention) of AFB with terramycin. Both also sanction the use of sugar syrup, where the survival of the colony is endangered and they outright condemn the use fumes for removal of honey, as well as fumigants on stored combs. Varroa simply cannot be controlled by mechanical methods alone. Two substances seem to hold promise of being accepted by the "Organic" community: Thymol and Rotenone. I don't know if anyone in the US has tried these. I would be very interested to hear from European Beekeepers regarding these substances. Also, what are the methods beekeepers use to kill diseased bees? (This is not addressed in the standards I saw. Simply letting them die out is irresponsible.) Finally, if anyone has similar sets of standards, I would like to see them. Peter Borst plb6@cornell.edu Ithaca, NY USA Peter Borst plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: Garry Libby Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re Hive design Hello Carmenie, I have two D.E. Hives and I think they are great. During the hottest days of last summer when My ten other hives had huge beards on the front, My D.E. Hives had none, this is due to the great ventilation those hives feature. I also have two conversion kit hives, which use standard Langstroth hive bodies and supers but have the ventilation box and ventilated outer cover that work so well. The Langstroth bodies are also "sideways" to the way We ordinarily sit hive bodies, this makes the entrance very wide for ease of ventilation and also that is the way bees build comb in the wild. Also, the unique way that plastic frame spacers are used prevents the bees from reaching the ends of the top bars, therefore they cannot propolize them. I do not need any tools to lift the frames just My fingers. The year I got My first D.E. Hive I compared honey production compared to My other hives and the D.E. did a lot better. But even if it produces the same amount of honey the other features make it outstanding. Everyone that I show this hive to is impressed with the ventilation. Garry Libby Attleboro, MA USA LibBEE@email.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:43:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hive design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have looked at the design of the David Eyre hive on his web site (some time ago so I am hazy on the details). It shows his ex- pat Brit. history. The basic design appears to be based on the British National which, in spite of having been designed by a committee, works very well and is used by about 80 per cent of UK beekeepers. The innovation is the ventilation system which I have not tried but is on my very long list of things to do. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:43:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Treatments etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David mentions the difficulties his customers have in sending samples to a local lab for testing for Nosema or tracheal mites. This is not rocket science but part of every keen beekeeper's basic education. Even if the beekeeper has not the time, inclination or microscope to do it themselves there must be a colleague within call who will do it. This may be an opportunity for school children to earn pocket money. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:48:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: SAFB is a New and Distinct Contagious Disease In-Reply-To: <199912082341.SAA24712@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have been considering this for a couple of days to try to improve > my reply. So here goes. Same here. I think there is no need to rush to discuss these matters. If I have doubts about what I write, I let it sit a day or two, then edit or send (or sometimes discard). Sometimes these discussions go on over years. from time to time I find something in the archives when I am browsing and write a reply or a sequel to it, even though years have passed. In this case, couple of days in the mountains on a snowboard have kept me occupied and cleared my mind. (I hope others feel free to write comments or questions about things that are not necessarily under current discussion. New ideas, new comments and new questions on old topics are what keeps things interesting. Sometimes a discussion gets hot and heavy, then dwindles off, and I wonder if latecomers feel that the time for comment has passed. It hasn't. This list thrives on good articles regardless of when the matter was last discussed). > I have no real objection to the SAFB label > but just am not sure it is really all that different. I do know that > one cannot tell in the field by looking at a brood comb if it is > regular or bad AFB... That's the point. SAFB mimics the old variety, but there the similarity ends for practical purposes. I am assuming the worst and that SAFB is or becomes totally unresponsive to oxytet in any dose that bees can tolerate and that there is no replacement made available. > >Okay, but where did it come from? Does anyone really know?... > Proof can be had if some researcher will do the DNA fingerprinting > work but AFAIK that work has not been done yet. It needs doing -- badly before we can proceed intelligently.. > One observation from the researchers is that what we are finding > in NA is not nearly as resistant as that found in SA could > suggest no recent direct connection. Again, not proof just > observation. Who is observing, what measurements are being used, and where can I find the research? Or this subjective? FWIW, I have been reporting for over 15 years that the dose recommended by North American government extension people is just enough to prevent an immediate outbreak, but not enough to knock the disease back to where it is unlikely to recur the moment medication stops. I wonder if chronic undermedication is part of this resistance picture. > When we first found resistance I figured that it was equally likely > that it was accidentally imported or selected here by our usage of > oxytet. Until the DNA fingerprinting is done we will never be sure > which or if in fact both are involved. The important thing is that we > know it is here and must deal with it. *How*? > My point is simply that we may have selected for it here as well in > other words we may have done it to ourselves. Now that is not a > comfortable thought... Doesn't bother me a bit. The facts -- no matter how seemingly nasty -- are our friends. What is really really uncomfortable -- and dangerous -- is proceeding with incomplete information or making unsupported assumptions. > but from what we know about development of drug > resistance it makes sense. The idea that we imported it is somewhat > comfortable since it did not happen because of what we were doing so > there may not be reason to change. Well, I think that we need proof, not just theories, to justify change and also facts to determine exactly what change is in order. We also need to know +HOW+ the resistance has arisen from within domestic AFB -- if it has. Otherwise, we will be acting superstitiously. If the mutation was facilitated by exposure to other common bacteria that have previously developed resistance, that means something completely different than if the resistance developed in AFB in isolation. * In the first case, the existence of other resistant bacteria in the environment means that resistant AFB is likely to evolve *anywhere* these other bacteria are and our current oxytet use for *any* AFB has a very limited life expectancy. * In the second case, it is possible, as postulated by many authorities, that some relatively new beekeeper practices are causing the new AFB strains to arise in an almost predictable manner, and that by *scientifically* identifying and then desisting from these practices, oxytet's usefulness may be prolonged in areas where the new AFB has not spread. > Again, we need to change the way > we approach brood disease control here in North America because of the > drug resistance which is now here but it is nice to be able to blame > the problem on someone else. Not really. The imperative here is to understand the *real* cause of the increasing frequent appearances of the new strain(s) and not to take the politically easy way out. Identifying who and what is responsible -- and why -- can help prevent and limit future episodes. Witch hunts on the other hand are counter-productive. > Of course if we selected it here we can > also do something about it by changing our management practices and > avoid repeating the same thing again in a few years with another > antibiotic. Experience in medicine has shown that the development of > multiple drug resistance is much quicker than development of the first > case of resistance so to continue on the treatment treadmill seems > unwise to me. What do you suggest as an alternative? > Now I am not sure of the mechanism of action of these two drugs but > tend to doubt that they work the exact same way. Sulfathiozole is not > an antibiotic at all and the tetracyclines are which leads me to > strongly suspect a different mechanism but I admit that I do not have > any references here to actually find out if there is a common mode of > action. Just the presence of a common mode of action does not mean > cross resistance but does increase the possibility. Well, I really don't know for sure either. I'm just repeating what I heard and hoping to hear from someone who knows. I hope *someone* does. > I tend to doubt transfer from other organisms for a couple of > reasons. First such transfer occurs when both organisms grow together > in the same environment. This does not occur in this case as the > foulbrood bacteria grows only in honey bees while those other bacteria > grow in other animals. Interesting. I guess then, that we cannot culture AFB on agar or whatever? > Second the foulbrood bacteria itself produces > one or more antibiotics which greatly reduce the growth of other > bacteria in its host and it often found in pure or nearly pure culture > in the infected larvae - a rather unusual case in nature. Sounds promising. I can see the headlines now,"NEW ANIBIOTIC FROM SICK HONEYBEES CURES HUMANS". > Maybe we used up our time. We selected for resistance for quite a > while before it appeared and then it started to show up here there and > everywhere. Once the selection had been applied ( drug used ) for a > long enough time resistance showed up. Well, the thing is that to get an AFB breakdown, a few resistant individual spores cannot do the job; critical mass is required. A number (30?) spores of AFB have to be present at the right time and the right place. The chances 30 resistant spores evolving at the same time and place is very low. That presents a kind of a hurdle. I am sure that AFB has taken a run at that hurdle a countless times over the years and fallen back. One or two resistant specimens can't do it alone. What is necessary is for the number of specimens that are resistant to build to that point before they can make a foothold. > This is really what seems to > have happened with fluvalinate and varroa mites - after 10 years of > use you have resistant mites starting to show up in more than one > location. What is different about varroa is that it only takes a single gravid female with resistance to start things going. No such hurdle there. Heritability of the trait is the main wildcard here. Now my math is a bit rusty, but I think the probabilities of AFB resistance to oxytet and varroa resistance to fluvalinate developing in a given timeframe are many orders of magnitude apart. Relative population numbers may skew this and also add an interesting dimension to the question of what is an appropriate dose and schedule for oxytet use. Computer models might be very interesting... > Now a little word about this. I have been very upset with > those Apistan ads that blame misuse by beekeepers of fluvalinate on > the development of resistance by the varroa mites... Any use not > just misuse leads to ( selects for ) resistance... You're not the only one, and such bogus talk makes us tend to mistrust all those who blame beekeepers for anything. > Here I suspect there may be a major difference between beekeeping in > the US and Canada. Here south of the border there is so much exchange > of broodcomb through sale of nucs, buying and selling frames of brood, > exchange of combs between outfits, sale of used equipment, etc that > many probably most commercial migratory beekeepers here are using a > common pool of broodcombs. And sharing a common environment. This something that those who advocate disinfecting frames, using foundation, abandoning medication and burning, don't seem to be able to understand. Without medication or something such as resistant bees that makes it unnecessary, all of the combs in North America would, with few exceptions need to be rendered and replaced. Even if this were done all at once, the reservoir of disease in the environment and the potential for infection from discarded honey would make the effort a waste ultimately. Moreover, if it were possible to start over, if all the comb were rendered at once, the bees that year would be relatively pitiful and -- barring an exceptional year weatherwise -- honey crops and pollinated crops would be very much reduced. It would be a disaster. There really is no acceptable alternative to finding a replacement treatment for oxytet or bees that are immune to ensure that the current equipment can continue to be used until such time as bees no longer are vulnerable to the disease. > >IF we have not generated our own and we HAVE INDEED imported some, > who is responsible? > > Does it really matter? Fixing blame does not deal with the problem > at hand namely dealing with antibiotic resistant AFB. It might be > comforting but it is mostly a waste of time and effort when we must > deal with the problem at hand. The first step in finding a solution is finding the true cause(s). Else, all efforts may well be in vain. > We are seeing the end of the > usefulness of the most effective antibiotic treatment for AFB we are > likely to ever see. I beg to differ, Sulfathiozole was -- and still is -- the very best we have ever used in all regards except the problem of residues. Given a situation where EFB was not a concern, sulfa was always first choice over oxytet. FWIW, sulfa still could safely be used in any situation where the hives are unlikely to produce honey for human consumption or store much syrup, such as dedicated pollination units, queen rearing hives, baby nucs, etc. If you are right and sulfa does use a different mechanism from oxytet, it could be part of the answer to the SAFB problem. > We need to change our management practices if we > are to survive in the current situation. Here in North America > oxytetracycline AFB will be showing up in your area sometime fairly > soon if it isn't there already and you must be ready and able to deal > with it. But we have no good facts, only guesses. > The good thing about AFB is that most of the spread of this > serious disease is due to movement of infected equipment by us > beekeepers therefore we can greatly reduce the spread by changing our > management practices. If we are doing it to ourselves, we can change > that ourselves. I think that is a very fallacious and dangerous belief. If it were that simple, none of us would get colds or the flu, which are diseases that come from social interaction. Given a choice of health or being part of the society around us, all of us must necessarily choose interaction. The simple fact is that if most of us in North America do not interact with other bees and beekeepers, our bees will do it for us. We are all vulnerable to what our neighbour does and we do not live in a fascist system. Any solution must take that into account, as well as the economic realities that face us. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:04:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Re: Hive design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, I'd like to thank everyone that replyed to my question on the Hive design of David Eyre of The Bee Works, for their comments. A friend of mine will be trying it this year. Hope your bees are well (and their owners too)! Regards, Carmenie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:13:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: A beginner's question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, This year I started beekeeping with 4 hives and made it up to 7. I got used equipment, in good shape, inspected and all. Then I got AFB in one colony. Burned it. And treated the rest with T-25. I used frames from the used equipment, cleaned and scorched first. And everything else was clean too. By the time I found it, there were quite a few cells infected, but the colony was still plenty strong. Hardly any scale. All colonies got used equipment. And T-25 had not been used in the spring, rather patties. Maybe a bit of powder but hardly any. And the other colonies were all fine. From what I've said, do you think it came from the used equipment, was already in the hives and manages to show itself, or got it from my neighbors or a feral colony? Would appreciate your comments. And do you think I ought to get rid of it all and start again, or keep on and hope for the best? Carmenie, Markdale, Ontario, Canada __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:50:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: fumidil experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Allen and All: >(I hope others feel free to write comments or questions about things that are >not necessarily under current discussion. New ideas, new comments and new >questions on old topics are what keeps things interesting. Perhaps you could be so kind as to update the listmembers on the results of the fumidil experiment and the "nosema discussion group" that is on your webpages. There has been no activity on this discussion group for over a year I believe. I thought the discussion was quite promising and it would be timely to report to the list given the current thread about prophylactic drug use in North American bees. Unlike foulbrood and chalkbrood, nosema is difficult to see without testing (and even *WITH* testing according to the discussion group and the thread on false positives). FWIW, I am somewhat skeptical that comb fumigation with acetic acid, and comb renewal programs are sufficient to solve the problem (although I do not disbelieve the European experience). I started over 200 packages this past spring from New Zealand, and they were shaken from two different beekeepers. I also picked up another batch of over 200 for other beekeepers. In both cases the majority of the load came in excellent condition and some were very very poor. It was determined that one of the beekeepers had high levels of nosema and this was the likely cause. I believe that bees can probably tolerate some nosema later in the season and still produce reasonable (but probably lower) honey crops, or at least that is what experiments that Endel Karmo years ago seemed to show. But without fumidil I would worry that nosema would hit the bees hardest in the early spring, just when we here need to push for a fast buildup for the very early blueberry pollination. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Feral comb cell size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Having read the fervor, mostly off this list, about the efficacy of an allegedly more natural small cell size for prevention of mites and other ills, I decided to measure some left over comb, not yet melted down, from two feral colonies. Some had honey in it, and some had brood having been smothered when the combs smashed together when the bee tree fell. The comb of both colonies measured 26.5 mm across the flats of 5 cells, which gives a pitch of 5.3 mm per cell. One may assume that the inner dimension is slightly less. I've not yet compared this with purchased foundation. I have no idea of the lineage of these colonies. One (since requeened) had bees uniformly having orangy red and black stripes. The other has bees of every color, though the queen is pumpkin colored. Both were mite free when captured, but subsequently got mites. One colony still has much of its original brood comb (too beautiful to replace) now on frames, and did get mites. I offer no conclusions about this comb, the bees that made it, or the (since killed) mites that eventually infested the bees, but merely share the facts. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:05:12 -0500 Reply-To: Garry Libby Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: D.E. Hive Design Hello Tim, During the spring and fall when temperatures are in the sixties or lower I turn the ventilation box upside down to reduce the ventilation. With the weather You experience, I think I would leave it that way except for the very hot days of summer, and I might reduce the entrance a bit. In Massachusetts, We have a lot of hot and muggy days(last summer it seemed they would never end) so the ventilation is very helpful. I also have hives that slow down during cooler weather while others are working like crazy. But in My opinion this is due to genetics( maybe they have more Mediterranean genes than the others), as most of My hives are Buckfast and I think sometimes some traits show stronger in some queens. Garry Libby Attleboro, MA LibBEE@email.msn.com